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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Phoenix87x on January 26, 2020, 05:32:15 AM

Title: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on January 26, 2020, 05:32:15 AM

Thoughts on the Coronavirus?

How serious is it and how bad do you think it could get? Does it have potential to be a Spanish flu situation, or more of a SARS situation?

***********
EDIT BY BOSK1:  I am putting this link here in the OP so people can find it to track cases:  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on January 26, 2020, 05:36:04 AM

All I know is if I hear "Baby Can You Dig Your Man" on the radio I am packing my shit and getting out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 26, 2020, 08:56:21 AM

don't drink Corona's so I think I'm good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on January 26, 2020, 09:31:24 AM

Quote from: axeman90210 on January 26, 2020, 05:36:04 AM

All I know is if I hear "Baby Can You Dig Your Man" on the radio I am packing my shit and getting out.

Captain Trips definitely crossed my mind as well  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 26, 2020, 10:34:22 AM

If at all it shows the definitive globalization of the world, for better (in some cases) or worse (such as this one).

I mean...
"There's been this outrbreak in China"
"Mh, sucks, at least China is far away and we're in no immed""BREAKING NEWS, POSSIBLE CASES IN AUSTRALIA AND EUROPE".

Geez.

The population of the cities being on lockdown amounts the population of Italy. Or, if you prefer, the population of California AND Florida combined. That's crazy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 26, 2020, 12:55:38 PM

First suspected case in toronto this morning.

I think this will be like SARS - very scary for a short period of time,but much ado about nothing in the long run

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 26, 2020, 01:01:13 PM

What's scary is how this became a thing in that market place in China. WTF is going on over there and worse when China covers a lot of it up to not make public how bad it really is.  I think in the end, people will continue to die from it but I'm not sure how bad globally it will be as people will rush to contain it as we've seen with other deadly virus'.  Just stay safe everyone who is traveling through airports.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 26, 2020, 01:05:20 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on January 26, 2020, 05:36:04 AM

All I know is if I hear "Baby Can You Dig Your Man" on the radio I am packing my shit and getting out.

Is containment even a realistic possibility at this point (as MirrorMask referenced) if something that serious happens? Where do we "get out" to?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on January 26, 2020, 01:39:31 PM

There has to be more than 2000 cases. Many more. There's no way it would've already spread on every continent otherwise. The reported spread and confirmed cases pattern is almost exactly the same as when swine flu broke out in Mexico.

Even among publicly confirmed cases the mortality rate isn't any higher than seasonal flu, so for the time being it's not a serious concern as long as mortality stays down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on January 26, 2020, 01:40:52 PM

I still can't get past the fact that 35 million people in China are under quarantine.

Think about being quarantined in your home town.  Every public place shut down.  No end in sight.  Hospitals so over-run that they are fast tracking the building of more hospitals.

Imagine being a hospital employee, an EMT, a police officer - meaning you are in the middle of it almost 24/7.

Those thoughts are almost scarier (to me) than the virus itself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on January 26, 2020, 01:51:59 PM

Just a zoomed out perspective...50,000 people in the US die from the flu, and nobody bats an eye...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 27, 2020, 05:50:59 AM

Quote from: millahh on January 26, 2020, 01:51:59 PM

Just a zoomed out perspective...50,000 people in the US die from the flu, and nobody bats an eye...

Yeah, but something like 80% of those deaths are the elderly. So the flu only kills 10,000, healthy/young people in the US annually. We lose more people to that in car accidents by Jan 4 of a new year, so the flu statistic is kind of moot. The difference with what's going on in China is this is a rapidly spreading, deadly disease that has already overwhelmed Chinese resources, and the rate of infected could continue to increase exponentially. 18 cities are now under quarantine, and Chinese New Year has been postponed by the government, who's telling people to stay in their homes. China has said 81 people are no confirmed dead, and something tells me that number might be low-balled a bit. We know what we're dealing with in regards to the flu. We don't really know what we're dealing with here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on January 27, 2020, 07:32:31 AM

I think the panicmode for these type of situations is actually a good thing. Even if it ends up being not that big a threat, no chances should be taken. When a non/poorly -treatable potentially lethal pathogen gets the opportunity to spread globally it can be devastating. Research has shown that there is a possibility of such viruses to arise. And some people I know tend to forget how vulnerable we are in absence of effective vaccines or antiviral compounds (or antibiotics in case of bacteria). Pathogens have devastated human populations in the past and that can happen again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on January 27, 2020, 07:52:09 AM

There was a scare here in Sweden today with two possible cases of the Corona virus, but tests showed that it wasn't this virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on January 27, 2020, 07:56:13 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 26, 2020, 01:05:20 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on January 26, 2020, 05:36:04 AM

All I know is if I hear "Baby Can You Dig Your Man" on the radio I am packing my shit and getting out.

Is containment even a realistic possibility at this point (as MirrorMask referenced) if something that serious happens? Where do we "get out" to?

Nebraska, obviously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on January 27, 2020, 08:31:13 AM

Quote from: axeman90210 on January 27, 2020, 07:56:13 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 26, 2020, 01:05:20 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on January 26, 2020, 05:36:04 AM

All I know is if I hear "Baby Can You Dig Your Man" on the radio I am packing my shit and getting out.

Is containment even a realistic possibility at this point (as MirrorMask referenced) if something that serious happens? Where do we "get out" to?

Nebraska, obviously.

Not Las Vegas?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 27, 2020, 08:59:06 AM

You guys can come to my house. I'll make brisket.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on January 27, 2020, 09:08:41 AM

I live in Nebraska so logically I'm not as concerned.  ;D

Seriously though, I believe that the human population count is the root cause of climate change. There are just too many damn people living on this planet. We are due for a pretty drastic health event that helps cull the human population. Maybe this is it maybe it won't be. At some point the planet will wipe out a large amount of humans to right the ship.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 27, 2020, 09:17:42 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on January 27, 2020, 09:08:41 AM

I live in Nebraska so logically I'm not as concerned.  ;D

Seriously though, I believe that the human population count is the root cause of climate change. There are just too many damn people living on this planet. We are due for a pretty drastic health event that helps cull the human population. Maybe this is it maybe it won't be. At some point the planet will wipe out a large amount of humans to right the ship.

Children of Men type of shit?  I can't say I disagree with you.  I already commented that in the climate change thread that the planet was fighting back (thru climate).  Maybe thru disease as well now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on January 27, 2020, 10:34:40 AM

I can't be the only one who's been playing a lot of Plague, Inc. recently, right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on January 27, 2020, 10:52:39 AM

Quote from: axeman90210 on January 27, 2020, 07:56:13 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 26, 2020, 01:05:20 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on January 26, 2020, 05:36:04 AM

All I know is if I hear "Baby Can You Dig Your Man" on the radio I am packing my shit and getting out.

Is containment even a realistic possibility at this point (as MirrorMask referenced) if something that serious happens? Where do we "get out" to?

Nebraska, obviously.

Mayhap so... mayhap so.  Can you dig it?  :lol  Maybe this situation will give SK another idea.

Contagion came to mind too... this mirrors the movie plot a bit in the early stages.  What's making me pay attention is the possibility of being contagious during incubation, the wide range of incubation estimates (BBC story said 1-day or up to 14-days), and the quick mutation possibilities.  That could be why the numbers of infected are climbing so fast.  Two possible cases in Virginia also caught my eye...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on January 27, 2020, 12:10:14 PM

Quote from: millahh on January 27, 2020, 10:34:40 AM

I can't be the only one who's been playing a lot of Plague, Inc. recently, right?

I played it two times, the first time I didn't do much, the second time I wiped the earth. Nothing much to do after that  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 27, 2020, 02:56:34 PM

So does the Corona Virus blend with Lymes disease???

Seriously though, like someone mentioned it's probably a good thing if there's a little panic.  Might make folks take some extra precautions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on January 27, 2020, 03:03:05 PM

When I first saw the name at a glance and didn't read it properly, I thought it was a dinosaur or something.  That's my contribution to the thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 28, 2020, 12:01:14 PM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on January 27, 2020, 02:56:34 PM

So does the Corona Virus blend with Lymes disease??

:lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 28, 2020, 12:23:23 PM

Horror scenario: imagine an outbreak like this in North Korea.

People dying like flies, they are not equipped to deal with it and they stubbornly refuse to ask for help. Maybe out of spite Kim Fat Jun sends a fake defector over to South Korea to infect them. Eventually when the disease is mowing down people worse than the plague they cave in and ask help to China or Russia, and they don't even know how to begin to contain the virus.

Geez, let's hope nothing bad happens over there, considering that with all the wacky nuclear tests they're having, one day they might accidentally create Godzilla.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 28, 2020, 01:15:54 PM

China and possibly Russia would come to NK's rescue without hesitation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on January 28, 2020, 01:16:56 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 28, 2020, 12:23:23 PM

Horror scenario: imagine an outbreak like this in North Korea.

People dying like flies, they are not equipped to deal with it and they stubbornly refuse to ask for help. Maybe out of spite Kim Fat Jun sends a fake defector over to South Korea to infect them. Eventually when the disease is mowing down people worse than the plague they cave in and ask help to China or Russia, and they don't even know how to begin to contain the virus.

Geez, let's hope nothing bad happens over there, considering that with all the wacky nuclear tests they're having, one day they might accidentally create Godzilla.

They don't let anyone out of the country. It would be a devastating event for the North Korean people but it would hardly affect the rest of the world.
And I do think China is downplaying how serious this is. They were forced to admit it after some time but if they had been able to contain it without much buss I'm pretty sure the world would have never known about this new virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 28, 2020, 01:21:54 PM

One confirmed 40 miles from where I live.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 28, 2020, 01:22:44 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 28, 2020, 01:21:54 PM

One confirmed 40 miles from where I live.

Where? I know two people in CT were getting checked out at Yale.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 28, 2020, 02:03:08 PM

Quote from: Chino on January 28, 2020, 01:22:44 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 28, 2020, 01:21:54 PM

One confirmed 40 miles from where I live.

Where? I know two people in CT were getting checked out at Yale.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/lawrence-hospital-quarantines-possible-coronavirus-patient

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on January 28, 2020, 02:43:41 PM

I heard on an alternative news outlet that the number of sick in China was more like 90,000 not 2,000 like what's being reported by the government.  I don't know how much truth there is in that, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it behaves in western countries to know how bad it really is.  (thank God for a free press)

This is a little conspiracy theoryish, but there are also some saying that it came from a government run infectious diseases lab instead of from animals.

Of course there's no way to tell if any of this is true.

But, still not even close to the numbers of the flu every year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on January 28, 2020, 03:45:23 PM

Search "Event 201" and read the first webpage and the explanation of the exercise; this took place last October in NYC.  Take from it what you will and form your own opinions.  Little unsettling that this exercise was modeled after a Novel Corona Virus/SARS.  They've issued a statement about nCoV and the similarities to the exercise.

Those hospitals that they're building in WuHan look to be very basic and quite large for 4,409 confirmed cases (4,474 confirmed globally by Johns Hopkins...).

Take care of yourself and your family King... just use good judgment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 28, 2020, 05:46:41 PM

My wife works at a hospital so it's a plus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on January 29, 2020, 08:57:26 AM

First case confirmed in Finland, a Chinese tourist from Wuhan.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 29, 2020, 10:08:32 AM

https://www.wric.com/news/u-s-world/google-searches-for-corona-beer-virus-spike-as-coronavirus-continues-to-spread/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2020, 12:10:31 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on January 28, 2020, 02:43:41 PM

I heard on an alternative news outlet that the number of sick in China was more like 90,000 not 2,000 like what's being reported by the government.  I don't know how much truth there is in that, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it behaves in western countries to know how bad it really is.  (thank God for a free press)

This is a little conspiracy theoryish, but there are also some saying that it came from a government run infectious diseases lab instead of from animals.

Of course there's no way to tell if any of this is true.

But, still not even close to the numbers of the flu every year.

Is this alternate source anonymous?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on January 29, 2020, 02:06:59 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 29, 2020, 12:10:31 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on January 28, 2020, 02:43:41 PM

I heard on an alternative news outlet that the number of sick in China was more like 90,000 not 2,000 like what's being reported by the government.  I don't know how much truth there is in that, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it behaves in western countries to know how bad it really is.  (thank God for a free press)

This is a little conspiracy theoryish, but there are also some saying that it came from a government run infectious diseases lab instead of from animals.

Of course there's no way to tell if any of this is true.

But, still not even close to the numbers of the flu every year.

Is this alternate source anonymous?

No, I was just lazy and didn't bother looking it up before I posted.  I'm a bit of a conspiracy theory nut so my sources should be taken with a grain of salt :).

I've heard those theories on Glen Beck (radio/youtube), Tim Pool (youtube), and Ground Zero (late night radio show)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 29, 2020, 06:27:58 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/kghNrWyy/FB-IMG-1580341365998.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on January 30, 2020, 02:47:20 PM

Quote

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51318246

The new coronavirus has been declared a global emergency by the World Health Organization, as the outbreak continues to spread outside China.
"The main reason for this declaration is not what is happening in China but what is happening in other countries," said WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.
The concern is that it could spread to countries with weaker health systems.
The death toll now stands at 170 people in China.
The WHO said there had been 98 cases in 18 countries outside of the country, but no deaths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on January 30, 2020, 03:10:12 PM

This is getting scarier by the minute.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 30, 2020, 03:12:23 PM

It reached Italy as well. Two chinese tourists infected in Rome.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 30, 2020, 04:57:14 PM

(https://preview.redd.it/9q6x2nf6yyd41.jpg?width=490&auto=webp&s=1397993675b8f58d535dcf345eeb1023b0e6494c)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on January 31, 2020, 06:18:51 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 30, 2020, 03:12:23 PM

It reached Italy as well. Two chinese tourists infected in Rome.

First two cases in Russia today, both Chinese citizens as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on January 31, 2020, 08:10:18 AM

First confirmed case here in Sweden now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 31, 2020, 08:15:28 AM

I think I'd heard it's a 14-day incubation period whereby hosts are infectious yet not symptomatic?  The fact it's spreading this fast in the first 2 weeks is the most alarming part.  These confirmed cases could have been with these people for the last 2 weeks.  I think the next 2 weeks will be the most telling.  If the cases continue to rise and spread at an accelerated pace, we could be fucked. If it stays the same rate or flattens out, things should be ok?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on January 31, 2020, 08:45:31 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 31, 2020, 08:15:28 AM

I think I'd heard it's a 14-day incubation period whereby hosts are infectious yet not symptomatic?  The fact it's spreading this fast in the first 2 weeks is the most alarming part.  These confirmed cases could have been with these people for the last 2 weeks.  I think the next 2 weeks will be the most telling.  If the cases continue to rise and spread at an accelerated pace, we could be fucked. If it stays the same rate or flattens out, things should be ok?

What is mildly alarming to me relates to this a bit...given the crackdown on even discussing/acknowledging this in China, we really don't even know the trajectory this thing is taking, especially with an incubation period this long.  It's tough to have accurate inputs for a model when the State is controlling the information, and jailing anyone who says anything that doesn't jibe exactly with the official story.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 31, 2020, 08:48:35 AM

My company has halted all flights to China and has requested any employee who's been to China within the last three weeks to call a specific number to discuss "next steps".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 31, 2020, 08:52:22 AM

Quote from: millahh on January 31, 2020, 08:45:31 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 31, 2020, 08:15:28 AM

I think I'd heard it's a 14-day incubation period whereby hosts are infectious yet not symptomatic?  The fact it's spreading this fast in the first 2 weeks is the most alarming part.  These confirmed cases could have been with these people for the last 2 weeks.  I think the next 2 weeks will be the most telling.  If the cases continue to rise and spread at an accelerated pace, we could be fucked. If it stays the same rate or flattens out, things should be ok?

What is mildly alarming to me relates to this a bit...given the crackdown on even discussing/acknowledging this in China, we really don't even know the trajectory this thing is taking, especially with an incubation period this long.  It's tough to have accurate inputs for a model when the State is controlling the information, and jailing anyone who says anything that doesn't jibe exactly with the official story.

I think this is more scary to me than the virus itself.  The death rate of this isn't so high to make me think this is going to kill so much of the population but without any truth of whats going on there, many more people are likely to be exposed and will die because the information isn't accurate to properly contain this.  The positive, everyone else seems to be taking it very seriously and containing people who could be infected is a good start because who knows who could be carrying this virus if you've recently been in China.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 31, 2020, 09:04:19 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 31, 2020, 08:52:22 AM

Quote from: millahh on January 31, 2020, 08:45:31 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 31, 2020, 08:15:28 AM

I think I'd heard it's a 14-day incubation period whereby hosts are infectious yet not symptomatic?  The fact it's spreading this fast in the first 2 weeks is the most alarming part.  These confirmed cases could have been with these people for the last 2 weeks.  I think the next 2 weeks will be the most telling.  If the cases continue to rise and spread at an accelerated pace, we could be fucked. If it stays the same rate or flattens out, things should be ok?

What is mildly alarming to me relates to this a bit...given the crackdown on even discussing/acknowledging this in China, we really don't even know the trajectory this thing is taking, especially with an incubation period this long.  It's tough to have accurate inputs for a model when the State is controlling the information, and jailing anyone who says anything that doesn't jibe exactly with the official story.

I think this is more scary to me than the virus itself.  The death rate of this isn't so high to make me think this is going to kill so much of the population but without any truth of whats going on there, many more people are likely to be exposed and will die because the information isn't accurate to properly contain this.  The positive, everyone else seems to be taking it very seriously and containing people who could be infected is a good start because who knows who could be carrying this virus if you've recently been in China.

Everyone except this guy:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 31, 2020, 09:09:27 AM

Well to be fair, it must SUCK to not feel sick and have to be quarantined for 2 weeks

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on January 31, 2020, 09:10:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 31, 2020, 09:09:27 AM

Well to be fair, it must SUCK to not feel sick and have to be quarantined for 2 weeks

Probably feels like a more boring version of that Tom Hanks airport movie.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 31, 2020, 09:11:25 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on January 31, 2020, 09:10:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 31, 2020, 09:09:27 AM

Well to be fair, it must SUCK to not feel sick and have to be quarantined for 2 weeks

Probably feels like a more boring version of that Tom Hanks airport movie.

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 01, 2020, 05:07:52 AM

And here we go.  First case of being infected outside of China *by* a host who was non-symptomatic in the incubation period.

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-spread-before-symptoms.html

Shit is going to get real.  Back to the OP, I think we could be heading into Spanish flu territory.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 01, 2020, 07:04:59 AM

Got a case in the SF Bay Area yesterday...no real surprise with the size of the Chinese population here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on February 01, 2020, 02:17:13 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 26, 2020, 12:55:38 PM

First suspected case in toronto this morning.

I think this will be like SARS - very scary for a short period of time,but much ado about nothing in the long run

I must've missed that one. I think Ebola was the last one I remember the media hyping up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 02, 2020, 08:20:17 AM

"The death toll in China climbed by 45 to 304 and the number of cases by 2,590 to 14,380, according to the National Health Commission, well above the number of those infected in in the 2002-03 outbreak of SARS, or severe acute respiratory syndrome, which broke out in southern China and spread worldwide"

 :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on February 02, 2020, 08:51:49 AM

^^^very scary and in addition to that, its now been reported on the East coast as well

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/02/01/metro/massachusetts-reports-first-confirmed-case-coronavirus/

This is getting really bad

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 02, 2020, 11:27:53 AM

Also, the first fatality outside of China... Vietnam.  Dude in his mid-40s.

 :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 02, 2020, 07:16:16 PM

China is now flying drones through the streets spraying disinfectants.  And The Bay area in Cali now has three confirmed cases.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhfBxjTLRpU

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/south-bay/second-case-of-coronavirus-in-bay-area-confirmed/2225499/

I'll admit, I'm starting to get worried even though the numbers are still way below that of the flu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 02, 2020, 07:20:13 PM

Are you in the Bay Area?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 02, 2020, 08:55:59 PM

Quote from: TAC on February 02, 2020, 07:20:13 PM

Are you in the Bay Area?

No, just been reading the news.  I live in Utah.  So far we don't have any cases, but we also don't have any direct oversees flights so it may take a little longer to get there.  I volunteer as local clergy in my church and I'm beginning to think we may need to put an emergency plan in place for our congregation just in case.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on February 03, 2020, 07:51:41 AM

The good news seems to be that the death rate seems to be fairly low, though even a few % can add up to a lot of people if is widely spread worldwide.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 03, 2020, 08:17:46 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 02, 2020, 07:20:13 PM

Are you in the Bay Area?

 :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 03, 2020, 08:46:34 AM

Checked in on my friend in China. Luckily she's been on vacation but she said the town she lives in, while mostly shut down, seems to be safe for now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on February 03, 2020, 09:10:22 AM

Does anyone have any info on where we can meet up with Mother Abigail?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 03, 2020, 09:14:57 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on February 03, 2020, 09:10:22 AM

Does anyone have any info on where we can meet up with Mother Abigail?

I would've pegged most DTF'rs for more of a Flagg crew.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: v_clortho on February 03, 2020, 09:21:40 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on February 03, 2020, 09:10:22 AM

Does anyone have any info on where we can meet up with Mother Abigail?

Pretty sure in Boulder, CO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on February 03, 2020, 11:17:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 03, 2020, 09:14:57 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on February 03, 2020, 09:10:22 AM

Does anyone have any info on where we can meet up with Mother Abigail?

I would've pegged most DTF'rs for more of a Flagg crew.

Nah... we'd all be Mother Abigail crew all the way because we'd want to keep our vices  :lol.  Flagg was crucifying people remember?  Anytime I play pool I think about Lloyd nailing the guy that was speed balling to the cross with Trash.

As said by others, the rapid spread and rapid confirmed-cases increase is quite alarming; kind of makes me think that there are a LOT more cases than we're being told.  The Chinese government also fired several officials yesterday (or the news report was yesterday) for their handling of the virus which is telling as well. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 03, 2020, 11:27:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 03, 2020, 09:14:57 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on February 03, 2020, 09:10:22 AM

Does anyone have any info on where we can meet up with Mother Abigail?

I would've pegged most DTF'rs for more of a Flagg crew.

While I know the Flagg reference, I don't know the Abigail one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on February 03, 2020, 11:34:11 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 03, 2020, 11:27:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 03, 2020, 09:14:57 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on February 03, 2020, 09:10:22 AM

Does anyone have any info on where we can meet up with Mother Abigail?

I would've pegged most DTF'rs for more of a Flagg crew.

While I know the Flagg reference, I don't know the Abigail one.

Mother was Flagg's foil... she was an emissary of God.  She was the "Light" and Flagg was the "Dark".

She also enjoyed killing chickens and playing guitar.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 03, 2020, 11:36:07 AM

God, I read The Stand over 30 years ago. I think I only remember Randal Flagg is because of the Anthrax album cover. I don't remember a single other character.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on February 03, 2020, 06:17:13 PM

Welp. I hope things smooth itself over in about two weeks before I fly to San Francisco, Seattle, and Spokane.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 03, 2020, 07:36:08 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on February 03, 2020, 06:17:13 PM

Welp. I hope things smooth itself over in about two weeks before I fly to San Francisco, Seattle, and Spokane.

I don't think this will go away any time soon unfortunately.

Heard some experts on these kinds of viruses say that it will probably culminate at the earliest in the summer byt more probably in the autunn.

Having said that I don't think you should worry too much. It is still concentrated in China with very few cases elsewhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 04, 2020, 07:49:50 AM

Over 20,000 cases now, and 500-ish fatalities.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 04, 2020, 02:29:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 04, 2020, 07:49:50 AM

Over 20,000 cases now, and 500-ish fatalities.

The numbers are rising pretty quickly.  But I'm glad it's still pretty minor in the states.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on February 07, 2020, 09:46:41 AM

I've been using https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw) to track the numbers and by-pass having to watch a news report.  Numbers seem to line up with the reports.  Gives UTC update times for Hubei as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 07, 2020, 09:48:03 AM

Read that a cruise ship is pulling into NJ today and going to be quarantined for this.  Also a Chinese coworker was in China and is going to be quarantined at the airport on his return, that sounds so miserable

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 07, 2020, 09:51:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 07, 2020, 09:48:03 AM

Read that a cruise ship is pulling into NJ today and going to be quarantined for this.  Also a Chinese coworker was in China and is going to be quarantined at the airport on his return, that sounds so miserable

There's a quarantined ship in Japan too. 61 people from the ship are confirmed to have it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/world/asia/coronavirus-japan-cruise-ship.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: pg1067 on February 07, 2020, 09:54:52 AM

(https://i.imgflip.com/3n8h8y.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 07, 2020, 10:49:01 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 07, 2020, 09:51:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 07, 2020, 09:48:03 AM

Read that a cruise ship is pulling into NJ today and going to be quarantined for this.  Also a Chinese coworker was in China and is going to be quarantined at the airport on his return, that sounds so miserable

There's a quarantined ship in Japan too. 61 people from the ship are confirmed to have it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/world/asia/coronavirus-japan-cruise-ship.html

That's been all over the news here - 251 Canadians on that ship, I think a few of them confirmed to be contracted.

Also, the Doctor / whistleblower (who was silenced when he first wanted to reveal it) died yesterday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zoom E on February 07, 2020, 10:53:36 AM

I came across this site which has all the statistics on the virus. Good information.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I hadn’t been too concerned about the virus as the death rate percentage is not high and the fatalities are mostly older or sickly people. But the death of the doctor who identified the virus is somewhat alarming, given that he was only 34 years old.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 07, 2020, 12:35:27 PM

Quote from: Zoom E on February 07, 2020, 10:53:36 AM

I came across this site which has all the statistics on the virus. Good information.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I hadn’t been too concerned about the virus as the death rate percentage is not high and the fatalities are mostly older or sickly people. But the death of the doctor who identified the virus is somewhat alarming, given that he was only 34 years old.

His death makes me wonder if something else was in play.  China is really trying to keep things tight lipped.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 07, 2020, 06:45:44 PM

I agree, it seems a little too convenient.  But I also know some of the video leaked out of the country showed younger people very sick, so maybe it wasn't government sanctioned murder, but just government lying about the disease.  We also still don't have a whole lot of cases outside of China so it's too soon to tell if their data is right or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 10, 2020, 12:02:56 PM

There's warning signs on the entrance doors to the data center I work in (owned and operated by another company, we rent space here) to not come in if you have a fever or have been to China.  I'm pretty sure they put this up because there is definitely a Chinese company that also rents space in this building.  They come by every once in awhile (similar to how I travel to my other data centers globally).  Also the company who runs these data centers sent out global notifications about actively not letting people in with fevers and they are taking extra precautions. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 10, 2020, 12:59:24 PM

Well, now there's 40,000 infected and over 900 dead.  The quarantined cruse ship infections have doubled.  Over the past 3 days the death numbers have increased at around 100 a day and I will bet the number of dead with exceed 1000 by the time they post new numbers today.  And China has begun imprisoning sick people and taking them from their homes by force.

There are still relatively few cases outside of China.  I'm not worried yet in the state I live, but I'm certainly beginning to prepare.  My family and I made a 3 month supply list of needs if we have to hunker down in our home for a while.  We will begin making those purchases this week. And these are things/food we normally consume so we won't be wasting our money.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: home on February 10, 2020, 01:29:51 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 10, 2020, 12:59:24 PM

There are still relatively few cases outside of China.  I'm not worried yet in the state I live, but I'm certainly beginning to prepare.  My family and I made a 3 month supply list of needs if we have to hunker down in our home for a while.  We will begin making those purchases this week. And these are things/food we normally consume so we won't be wasting our money.

You should do whatever feels good but isn't that overreacting a little bit? I live in a city where there are some cases and most people seem not to be so worried...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on February 10, 2020, 02:11:25 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 10, 2020, 12:59:24 PM

Well, now there's 40,000 infected and over 900 dead.  The quarantined cruse ship infections have doubled.  Over the past 3 days the death numbers have increased at around 100 a day and I will bet the number of dead with exceed 1000 by the time they post new numbers today.  And China has begun imprisoning sick people and taking them from their homes by force.

I've watched some videos of that. Its terrifying

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 10, 2020, 12:59:24 PM

There are still relatively few cases outside of China.  I'm not worried yet in the state I live, but I'm certainly beginning to prepare.  My family and I made a 3 month supply list of needs if we have to hunker down in our home for a while.  We will begin making those purchases this week. And these are things/food we normally consume so we won't be wasting our money.

I'm starting to prepare too. Canned foods, bottled water and multi vitamins.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 10, 2020, 02:13:33 PM

I'm preparing too. Lining my lawn with land mines, stocking up on guns/ammo/knives/cross bows, etc.

If this thing turns people into zombies, I WILL be prepared.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 02:15:06 PM

I've seen Shaun of the Dead. I'm ready.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 10, 2020, 02:23:02 PM

I might just fly Gmillerdrake over. I feel like he's the guy to go to in a zombie scenario.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 02:29:05 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 10, 2020, 02:23:02 PM

I might just fly Gmillerdrake over. I feel like he's the guy to go to in a zombie scenario.

Well, I guess I should work on my DTF zombie apocalypse survivor bracket tonight.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 10, 2020, 02:32:51 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on February 10, 2020, 02:29:05 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 10, 2020, 02:23:02 PM

I might just fly Gmillerdrake over. I feel like he's the guy to go to in a zombie scenario.

Well, I guess I should work on my DTF zombie apocalypse survivor bracket tonight.

I mean, you can come too, but if things get nuts, I'm hiding behind him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 10, 2020, 03:21:48 PM

I won't survive long and not sure I even want to in a zombie scenario.... unless it's like Dawn of the Dead where I can just chill in a mall while everything else goes to shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 10, 2020, 03:31:43 PM

I couldn't survive in an apocalyptic scenario on my own, but I definitely have a number of skill sets that would render me very useful. I think with a core group of 4 or 5 people, I'd be alright.   

 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 03:44:57 PM

I have a +7 to Hermiting, so, I'm very likely to survive on my own. All I need is a gun and a can opener.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 10, 2020, 03:58:03 PM

Quote from: home on February 10, 2020, 01:29:51 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 10, 2020, 12:59:24 PM

There are still relatively few cases outside of China.  I'm not worried yet in the state I live, but I'm certainly beginning to prepare.  My family and I made a 3 month supply list of needs if we have to hunker down in our home for a while.  We will begin making those purchases this week. And these are things/food we normally consume so we won't be wasting our money.

You should do whatever feels good but isn't that overreacting a little bit? I live in a city where there are some cases and most people seem not to be so worried...

I think you're right, there probably won't be anything to worry about here in the US. However, the time to prepare isn't when it hits the fan but before, while things are calm and stores aren't being raided.  If you're prepared you shall not fear, as they say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 10, 2020, 04:07:46 PM

And I was right, death toll has surpassed 1000 according to CNBC.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 10, 2020, 06:29:08 PM

Quote from: Chino on February 10, 2020, 03:31:43 PM

I couldn't survive in an apocalyptic scenario on my own, but I definitely have a number of skill sets that would render me very useful. I think with a core group of 4 or 5 people, I'd be alright.

I'm in this group, I'd like to think my vast culinary skills would be very useful in an apocalyptic environment. The art of smoking /curing meats and fish would be crucial if power grids go down permanently. I have more than enough close gun nut friends that having a posse so to speak would be fairly easy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 06:44:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 10, 2020, 06:29:08 PM

Quote from: Chino on February 10, 2020, 03:31:43 PM

I couldn't survive in an apocalyptic scenario on my own, but I definitely have a number of skill sets that would render me very useful. I think with a core group of 4 or 5 people, I'd be alright.

I'm in this group, I'd like to think my vast culinary skills would be very useful in an apocalyptic environment. The art of smoking /curing meats and fish would be crucial if power grids go down permanently. I have more than enough close gun nut friends that having a posse so to speak would be fairly easy.

Til the cannibals capture you and make you their slavecook.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 10, 2020, 06:54:35 PM

Honestly, if the cannibals capture you? Personal chef is a fantastic position to be in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 07:00:00 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 10, 2020, 06:54:35 PM

Honestly, if the cannibals capture you? Personal chef is a fantastic position to be in.

It's a pretty good background for an RPG character. But fantastic? No way, at least not before you're brainwashed into loving the smell and taste of man bourguignon. Talk about scarring.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 10, 2020, 07:01:07 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 10, 2020, 06:54:35 PM

Honestly, if the cannibals capture you? Personal chef is a fantastic position to be in.

Right? I even know which cuts of human are the best for steaks and which should be used more for braising purposes...

(https://rlv.zcache.com/people_meat_chart-r23680a1e8b1546849405aed5bcb9d8ee_w2u_8byvr_540.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 10, 2020, 07:01:58 PM

Fantastic IF CAPTURED BY CANNIBALS. Not fantastic in and of itself. But what other positions are there?

1. Eat humans.
2. Be eaten
3. Cook humans

Seems like 3 is the least horrifying one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 07:05:59 PM

You say that like you wouldn't also be eating the humans! You just get to do work on top of it, and you can't quit working, else they'll eat you, too. Nah man. What you do is poison their portions, it's obvious. Then you win.

RJ... that's a little scary.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 10, 2020, 07:12:53 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on February 10, 2020, 07:05:59 PM

You say that like you wouldn't also be eating the humans! You just get to do work on top of it, and you can't quit working, else they'll eat you, too. Nah man. What you do is poison their portions, it's obvious. Then you win.

RJ... that's a little scary.  :lol

I’ll jump on that bandwagon and point out that being the chef allows you to poison the cannibals. Thus, fantastic position.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 07:18:03 PM

Yeah. So in the end I guess I ceded to your side after all, but for a better reason.









 :loser:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 10, 2020, 09:07:36 PM

What's scarier is when it comes down to it, breaking down a human and breaking down a pig are very similar, so I probably wouldn't need to even learn on the go. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 10, 2020, 09:16:01 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 10, 2020, 09:07:36 PM

What's scarier is when it comes down to it, breaking down a human and breaking down a pig are very similar, so I probably wouldn't need to even learn on the go. :lol

So, don't piss off RJ. Got it.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 10, 2020, 09:51:09 PM

 :RJ:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 11, 2020, 07:14:17 AM

RJ can cook up some seasoned cramx3 rump for you all, make my ass taste nice and tasty for the survivors of the coronavirus

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 11, 2020, 07:21:04 AM

If you eat the ass of someone with Caronavirus, do you then get the disease as well?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 11, 2020, 07:44:10 AM

This is great!   :rollin  Thanks for turning the thread around to something more light hearted!  I admit I was getting a little stuck in the fear/emergency side of things.

And no, I don't think you can get the virus from eating someones rear end.  It's a respiratory pathogen and isn't spread like Ebola would be.  So I think we're safe eating each other's ()()'s  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 11, 2020, 07:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 11, 2020, 07:21:04 AM

If you eat the ass of someone with Caronavirus, do you then get the disease as well?

I mean, I feel like there's only one way to find out.

Let us know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on February 11, 2020, 08:14:34 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 11, 2020, 07:44:10 AM

This is great!   :rollin  Thanks for turning the thread around to something more light hearted!  I admit I was getting a little stuck in the fear/emergency side of things.

And no, I don't think you can get the virus from eating someones rear end.  It's a respiratory pathogen and isn't spread like Ebola would be.  So I think we're safe eating each other's ()()'s  :tup

I heard that as long as you cook the meat medium well, that should kill all the virus particles. I usually like it medium rare, but I guess I'll make an exception in this case  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on February 11, 2020, 08:16:39 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 11, 2020, 07:21:04 AM

If you eat the ass of someone with Caronavirus, do you then get the disease as well?

Well, apparently there is a building in Hong Kong that has been evacuated because the poop pipes and the air pipes intertwined at some point and they think that caused people to get infected. So I'm gonna go with a yes

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 11, 2020, 09:12:36 AM

True, but that problem is caused because of the virus floating around in contaminated air, not from the meat itself.  Eating ()() should still be OK.  :tup  Medium well, Of course.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 11, 2020, 09:16:22 AM

I was thinking of a different kind of ass eating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 11, 2020, 11:05:44 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on February 11, 2020, 09:16:22 AM

I was thinking of a different kind of ass eating.

paired with a side of balls?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 11, 2020, 11:34:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 11, 2020, 11:05:44 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on February 11, 2020, 09:16:22 AM

I was thinking of a different kind of ass eating.

paired with a side of balls?

I thought it was a given I'd be eating the ass sans testes, monsieur.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on February 12, 2020, 09:01:39 AM

"So, how's the ass?"
"Ass is Ass."
"Ass IS ass.  That is very profound.  By the same token, could you say balls are balls?  I don't think so."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 13, 2020, 09:20:42 AM

Well, I thought I would rudely take the levity away and steer back the discussion with some conspiracy and doomsday stuff.

Current numbers:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/13/coronavirus-latest-updates-china-hubei.html

And China may be burning thousands of dead bodies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_v6y5hdiPk

Anyway, happy Wednesday everyone!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 13, 2020, 09:22:51 AM

I've seen in passing online that the dead bodies burnt thing was already debunked.

Come on, it's 2020, not 1020.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 13, 2020, 11:41:22 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 13, 2020, 09:22:51 AM

I've seen in passing online that the dead bodies burnt thing was already debunked.

Come on, it's 2020, not 1020.

I really hope that's true.

I haven't seen that news myself but there's a lot of news surrounding this whole thing out there with varying degrees of accuracy.  (And I don't pretend that the sources I read or watch are necessarily accurate either).

If you find a source, would you mind posting it?  I would definately like to read it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on February 13, 2020, 01:34:46 PM

I hear Coronavirus pairs well with Lyme disease  :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 20, 2020, 02:07:34 PM

So I found this article which I thought was very interesting:

https://www.eturbonews.com/542533/coronavirus-risk-for-asians-africans-caucasians-revealed/

Apparently the risk factor in getting the coronavirus is very race dependant.  This might explain why we haven't seen much spread of the virus and 0 deaths outside of those with asian descent.

I feel really bad for Asians right now, I can't imagine how scared people over there are right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: home on February 20, 2020, 02:46:27 PM

I would take it with grain of salt honestly. I'm not completely sober rn but their main source seems to be: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.26.919985v1.full#disqus_thread (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.26.919985v1.full#disqus_thread), as you can see in t comments there are definitely some problems/oerstatements in the article.

These rxiv papers are not peer reviewed and (I'm not in the this exact field so it might be different here) people post unfinished work here, that they will later try to prove/verify, just so that they can be the first who proposed it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 21, 2020, 02:45:31 AM

Three cases in Lombardy, in Italy, in a town that is - as Google Maps informs me - 50 minutes away from where I live.

A guy came back from China and infected the wife and a friend. I wonder why they didn't think to quarantine each and every single person coming back from China.

Oh, and in a slightly off topic moment, for the "Severe stuff that for the moment nobody gives a damn about", may I remind you that Africa is being swamped by locusts? crops are being devoured by impressive swamps of locusts, screwing up the crops and plunging several nations into a dire food crisis.

So far 2020 gave us:
- Three days into the year, a (nuclear) war scare
- Australia devastated by fires, which no doubt this summer are gonna plague Siberia and parts of the USA again
- Coronavirus
- Locusts epidemic in Africa

Anything else, 2020?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on February 21, 2020, 04:36:33 AM

If we take coronavirus as a sort of pestilence of livestock (pigs have been killed in china for this), can we say we've had 3 out of the 10 plagues?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 21, 2020, 04:39:17 AM

Can't wait for the death of the firstborn and Metallica's Creeping Death being played all over the news  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 23, 2020, 06:04:25 AM

BTW, 2 days ago I wrote there were three cases in north Italy.

Situation 48 hours after:

- 130 cases, mainly in Lombardy, but also in other regions of the north
- Cities where the cases started sealed, nobody gets in or out
- Two deceased, even though it's important to remember they were old and suffering from other pathologies. The virus itself is NOT lethal, who knows how many people got it, healed it and thought they just caught the common flu
- Football matches canceled in Lombardy
- Every school of Lombardy closed for at least a week

Wow.

And this weekend I over dressed, sweated a bit, got an innocent cold (nose is a bit clogged up), and tomorrow I'll have to take for 45 minutes the subway to go to work.

Wish me luck  :lol (and more than luck, wish me to remember to do a thing so easy and yet so vital to get rid of the virus: wash profusely with soap the hands)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: orcus116 on February 23, 2020, 02:01:34 PM

So one of my coworker's girlfriend is from China and she has a son still over there. My coworker told me that she has decided to travel over there knowing full well about being quarantined and not being able to actually see her son although they can communicate over the phone there. That's all fine and well but when she does return (seems like a couple of months per my co-worker) I'm assuming anyone traveling from China will be heavily monitored but the whole situation doesn't give me a warm fuzzy considering at the absolute worst what my coworker might bring back into the office.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 24, 2020, 07:48:53 AM

Quote from: orcus116 on February 23, 2020, 02:01:34 PM

So one of my coworker's girlfriend is from China and she has a son still over there. My coworker told me that she has decided to travel over there knowing full well about being quarantined and not being able to actually see her son although they can communicate over the phone there. That's all fine and well but when she does return (seems like a couple of months per my co-worker) I'm assuming anyone traveling from China will be heavily monitored but the whole situation doesn't give me a warm fuzzy considering at the absolute worst what my coworker might bring back into the office.

Mandatory 2 week quarantine at the airport when you arrive from China, my chinese coworker currently is on week 2 in quarantine.  I think it's a really bad idea to travel there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on February 24, 2020, 02:24:04 PM

Quote from: orcus116 on February 23, 2020, 02:01:34 PM

So one of my coworker's girlfriend is from China and she has a son still over there. My coworker told me that she has decided to travel over there knowing full well about being quarantined and not being able to actually see her son although they can communicate over the phone there. That's all fine and well but when she does return (seems like a couple of months per my co-worker) I'm assuming anyone traveling from China will be heavily monitored but the whole situation doesn't give me a warm fuzzy considering at the absolute worst what my coworker might bring back into the office.

You may want to copy this article and slip it in your co-worker's mailbox.  https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html

Man returns to US from China on a work trip and develops symptoms of illness.  He does the responsible thing and goes to get it checked at a local hospital.  Now, he's getting the bill for it.

Quote

But two weeks later, Azcue got unwelcome news in the form of a notice from his insurance company about a claim for $3,270.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 24, 2020, 05:28:05 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 23, 2020, 06:04:25 AM

BTW, 2 days ago I wrote there were three cases in north Italy.

Situation 48 hours after:

- 130 cases, mainly in Lombardy, but also in other regions of the north
- Cities where the cases started sealed, nobody gets in or out
- Two deceased, even though it's important to remember they were old and suffering from other pathologies. The virus itself is NOT lethal, who knows how many people got it, healed it and thought they just caught the common flu
- Football matches canceled in Lombardy
- Every school of Lombardy closed for at least a week

Wow.

And this weekend I over dressed, sweated a bit, got an innocent cold (nose is a bit clogged up), and tomorrow I'll have to take for 45 minutes the subway to go to work.

Wish me luck  :lol (and more than luck, wish me to remember to do a thing so easy and yet so vital to get rid of the virus: wash profusely with soap the hands)

That's scary stuff.  Italy looks like it's getting hit hard.  Be well MirrorMask :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on February 24, 2020, 05:32:25 PM

I may have posted this already, but here's constantly refreshing up to date map of all the cases world wide

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Its like this:

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/8f/55/8d/8f558d37538dfc3600f64013cc810e84.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 24, 2020, 05:37:52 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 24, 2020, 05:28:05 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 23, 2020, 06:04:25 AM

BTW, 2 days ago I wrote there were three cases in north Italy.

Situation 48 hours after:

- 130 cases, mainly in Lombardy, but also in other regions of the north
- Cities where the cases started sealed, nobody gets in or out
- Two deceased, even though it's important to remember they were old and suffering from other pathologies. The virus itself is NOT lethal, who knows how many people got it, healed it and thought they just caught the common flu
- Football matches canceled in Lombardy
- Every school of Lombardy closed for at least a week

Wow.

And this weekend I over dressed, sweated a bit, got an innocent cold (nose is a bit clogged up), and tomorrow I'll have to take for 45 minutes the subway to go to work.

Wish me luck  :lol (and more than luck, wish me to remember to do a thing so easy and yet so vital to get rid of the virus: wash profusely with soap the hands)

That's scary stuff.  Italy looks like it's getting hit hard.  Be well MirrorMask :tup

Italy seems to be the next big hot spot, but what I was reading online was that the thought is Italy may have the most accurate count and is a good data point compared to China for tracking the spread.  Italy's numbers are high and it could be because they are on top of it, hopefully.

I did read another doctor type says 60-70 percent of the world will have been infected by it come the fall.  I don't know, but I'm almost anticipating getting this flu/cold at some point next fall.  Luckily I am in good health so it's not truly worrisome to my immediate self, but I can imagine lots of elderly and young who aren't healthy to potentially die off from this once it gets out there to everyone to consume. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 25, 2020, 01:22:45 AM

Yeah, for the fast spreading of the virus, the sanitary system here seems to work, and as a famous virologist said (he became famous by mercilessly trolling and telling to piss off anti vaxxers and people uneducated in medicine making ignorant and ridiculous claims), "you can't find something that you're not searching for".

The controls and the precautions are working, it was only inevitable that, with an incubation period of 14 days, the first ones would be slipping away. Of course the situation got a bit out of hand with people's attitude, a lot of them are wearing masks (even though they're meant for people with the virus or dealing with ill people) just for the sake of it, the supermarkets have been assaulted (evidently for many people "virus" means "nuclear holocaust"), and hands detergents are being over-over-sold on Amazon and the likes...  :facepalm:

As for me, smart working is not an option, I simply take the empty subway (gods how great it is to take an empty subway and sitting the whole time), wash my hands as soon as I get to work (and I use gloves on the subway anyway) and sneeze or cough inside my arm. And I enjoy all the memes online about it because at least the virus didn't take away people's humour  :D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on February 25, 2020, 07:48:45 PM

Anyone think there will be a summer Olympics this year?   :sad:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 25, 2020, 07:52:56 PM

MirrorMask, I did PM you. We have a trip planned to Italy this summer.


I think I'm less worried about catching it than I am being let back into the US.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 26, 2020, 07:28:02 AM

All the panic over this stupid virus is making the market volatile and my brokerage account is losing money.  No one has noticed that the Dow has taken a fucking dump over the last 2 days?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on February 26, 2020, 07:29:50 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 26, 2020, 07:28:02 AM

All the panic over this stupid virus is making the market volatile and my brokerage account is losing money.  No one has noticed that the Dow has taken a fucking dump over the last 2 days?

Oh I noticed. I've lost more value in my investments in the last 2 days than my salary will pay over the next month and a half. That's kind of crazy. But I'm invested for the long haul, so a little volatility now isn't a big deal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 07:36:02 AM

Quote from: Harmony on February 25, 2020, 07:48:45 PM

Anyone think there will be a summer Olympics this year?   :sad:

I saw a headline saying they are waiting to see how bad it is come May, but it's definitely on the table to be cancelled or postponed.

Quote from: lordxizor on February 26, 2020, 07:29:50 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 26, 2020, 07:28:02 AM

All the panic over this stupid virus is making the market volatile and my brokerage account is losing money.  No one has noticed that the Dow has taken a fucking dump over the last 2 days?

Oh I noticed. I've lost more value in my investments in the last 2 days than my salary will pay over the next month and a half. That's kind of crazy. But I'm invested for the long haul, so a little volatility now isn't a big deal.

Same.  I'm not retiring anytime soon so I'm not too worried about the market shaking a bit in the short term.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 26, 2020, 07:38:32 AM

It's also something new. Hopefully the experience gained by this whole ordeal will become useful next time there's something similar.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 26, 2020, 07:45:34 AM

I have seen that in the news.  This virus just might be the poison that finally topples our bull market run here in the US.  It's the longest in history and it just may end this year because of this virus stuff.

The funny thing is, it still isn't near as bad as the flu, and yet it is causing such a gigantic amount of chaos.  The conspiracy theorist in me almost wants to think it was planned.

government criticism in China ended
Hong Kong protests ended
Focus on NK's nucular tests ended
The push in the media about a coming recession here in the US (even though there's been no evidence) just may finally be realized.

This might just be crazy talk, but this is what I've noticed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on February 26, 2020, 07:46:58 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 07:36:02 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on February 26, 2020, 07:29:50 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 26, 2020, 07:28:02 AM

All the panic over this stupid virus is making the market volatile and my brokerage account is losing money.  No one has noticed that the Dow has taken a fucking dump over the last 2 days?

Oh I noticed. I've lost more value in my investments in the last 2 days than my salary will pay over the next month and a half. That's kind of crazy. But I'm invested for the long haul, so a little volatility now isn't a big deal.

Same.  I'm not retiring anytime soon so I'm not too worried about the market shaking a bit in the short term.

I was thinking how this is reminding of the swine flu outbreak a decade ago. I was wondering how it affected the market back then and found this. obviously, Coronavirus is still fresh and we don't know how (or if) it will bounce back.

(https://fm-static.cnbc.com/awsmedia/chart/2020/02/06/PE.1581000502504.png?)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 26, 2020, 07:54:32 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 26, 2020, 07:45:34 AM

I have seen that in the news.  This virus just might be the poison that finally topples our bull market run here in the US.  It's the longest in history and it just may end this year because of this virus stuff.

The funny thing is, it still isn't near as bad as the flu, and yet it is causing such a gigantic amount of chaos.  The conspiracy theorist in me almost wants to think it was planned.

government criticism in China ended
Hong Kong protests ended
Focus on NK's nucular tests ended
The push in the media about a coming recession here in the US (even though there's been no evidence) just may finally be realized.

This might just be crazy talk, but this is what I've noticed.

It wasn't planned.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 26, 2020, 07:58:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 24, 2020, 05:37:52 PM

I did read another doctor type says 60-70 percent of the world will have been infected by it come the fall.  I don't know, but I'm almost anticipating getting this flu/cold at some point next fall.  Luckily I am in good health so it's not truly worrisome to my immediate self, but I can imagine lots of elderly and young who aren't healthy to potentially die off from this once it gets out there to everyone to consume.

If he is correct and we count on a moryalityrate of 3% there could be about 140 million deaths from this....

So this could potentially be really bad

Let's hope it can be stopped

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 26, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 26, 2020, 07:45:34 AM

The funny thing is, it still isn't near as bad as the flu, and yet it is causing such a gigantic amount of chaos.  The conspiracy theorist in me almost wants to think it was planned.

government criticism in China ended
Hong Kong protests ended
Focus on NK's nucular tests ended
The push in the media about a coming recession here in the US (even though there's been no evidence) just may finally be realized.

All of this at the "simple" price of a uber gazillion of money lost for all kind of sectors, be it tourism, economy or worldwide production? come on.  There's no way the "man hidden in Denver or wherever the shadow government resides" calls China's president and says "so buddy, you got issues and we got too, how about we spread a virus that will cripple for months the world's economy making all of our life suck so bad just to distract people a bit?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 26, 2020, 08:13:28 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 26, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 26, 2020, 07:45:34 AM

The funny thing is, it still isn't near as bad as the flu, and yet it is causing such a gigantic amount of chaos.  The conspiracy theorist in me almost wants to think it was planned.

government criticism in China ended
Hong Kong protests ended
Focus on NK's nucular tests ended
The push in the media about a coming recession here in the US (even though there's been no evidence) just may finally be realized.

All of this at the "simple" price of a uber gazillion of money lost for all kind of sectors, be it tourism, economy or worldwide production? come on.  There's no way the "man hidden in Denver or wherever the shadow government resides" calls China's president and says "so buddy, you got issues and we got too, how about we spread a virus that will cripple for months the world's economy making all of our life suck so bad just to distract people a bit?"

You're WAY off base here bud.


It's Tucson Arizona, not Denver. Sheesh. You think Lizard people are going to thrive in Denver?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on February 26, 2020, 09:36:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 24, 2020, 05:37:52 PM

Italy seems to be the next big hot spot, but what I was reading online was that the thought is Italy may have the most accurate count and is a good data point compared to China for tracking the spread.  Italy's numbers are high and it could be because they are on top of it, hopefully.

Coronavirus isn't a quick killer, and the fact so many have died within days from the quick accumulation of confirmed cases suggests that there could already be thousands infected or at least carrying the virus. Also, a case of coronavirus was just confirmed in Helsinki where a working age woman had returned from Milan. Keep in mind the incubation period can be up to 14 days. The data may still be more reliable than China's though, even if confirmed cases were just the tip of an iceberg.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 11:34:42 AM

And confirmed in South America now too.  It's all over the world besides Antarctica

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 26, 2020, 11:44:22 AM

Alarming news from Toronto's newest case - patient was back home from travel for 9 days before showing symptoms.

They traveled from Iran.

A) huge potential for community transmission
B) wasn't from China.  So people traveling from anywhere that has had outbreaks are now spreading the disease.

I'm not sure that I'm The Stand or 12 Monkey's level of worried .... yet.  But I'm getting there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 11:55:32 AM

Yea, Iran is pretty bad so it's no surprise.  The incubation period being so long, it's impossible to know who is carrying it.  It will be everywhere, it seems inevitable at this point. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 26, 2020, 12:03:08 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 26, 2020, 08:13:28 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 26, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 26, 2020, 07:45:34 AM

The funny thing is, it still isn't near as bad as the flu, and yet it is causing such a gigantic amount of chaos.  The conspiracy theorist in me almost wants to think it was planned.

government criticism in China ended
Hong Kong protests ended
Focus on NK's nucular tests ended
The push in the media about a coming recession here in the US (even though there's been no evidence) just may finally be realized.

All of this at the "simple" price of a uber gazillion of money lost for all kind of sectors, be it tourism, economy or worldwide production? come on.  There's no way the "man hidden in Denver or wherever the shadow government resides" calls China's president and says "so buddy, you got issues and we got too, how about we spread a virus that will cripple for months the world's economy making all of our life suck so bad just to distract people a bit?"

You're WAY off base here bud.


It's Tucson Arizona, not Denver. Sheesh. You think Lizard people are going to thrive in Denver?

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 26, 2020, 12:10:47 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 26, 2020, 11:44:22 AM

I'm not sure that I'm The Stand or 12 Monkey's level of worried .... yet.  But I'm getting there.

Well, if you're worried, start following these rules suggested by Italy's health ministery that I think work well for everyone, as simple as they might be.

1. Wash often your hands

2. Avoid close contact with people suffering from breathing infections

3. Don't touch the nose, the eyes or the mouth with your hands

4. Cover the mouth and the nose if you sneeze

5. Don't take antiviral drugs or antibiotics unless prescripted by a doctor

6. Clean surfaces with alcohol or disinfectant products

7. Use a mask only if you're suffering from the disease or you're assisting ill people

8. Products made in China and packages arriving from China are not dangerous

9. Pets are not dangerous

10. Call the medical authorities if you're back from China since less than 14 days (well, this is kinda moot by now, health procedures and instructions given to the population vary from nation to nation)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 12:16:33 PM

While that all sounds good, I read the virus can be contracted through your eyes and typical hand cleaners may not actually help here.  I think the unknowns are more scary than what we actually know right now.  As I said before, I'm not personally worried although I expect this to get much worse at this rate.  It's the elder and sickly who should be worried, specifically the ones who may still be getting out and about in very public areas.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on February 26, 2020, 12:37:34 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 07:36:02 AM

Quote from: Harmony on February 25, 2020, 07:48:45 PM

Anyone think there will be a summer Olympics this year?   :sad:

I saw a headline saying they are waiting to see how bad it is come May, but it's definitely on the table to be cancelled or postponed.

Quote from: lordxizor on February 26, 2020, 07:29:50 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 26, 2020, 07:28:02 AM

All the panic over this stupid virus is making the market volatile and my brokerage account is losing money.  No one has noticed that the Dow has taken a fucking dump over the last 2 days?

Oh I noticed. I've lost more value in my investments in the last 2 days than my salary will pay over the next month and a half. That's kind of crazy. But I'm invested for the long haul, so a little volatility now isn't a big deal.

Same.  I'm not retiring anytime soon so I'm not too worried about the market shaking a bit in the short term.

Same... but kind of calmed a bit today from a percentage perspective when viewed versus the last two days... the train was looking for a reason slow down and it found one with the virus.  Maybe a good time to dip-buy the big boys that have taken a hit (GOOG, AAPL, Amazon, etc), maybe even TSLA depending on what's done with the new China plant.

I honestly expected crypto to surge a bit as it's moved in tandem with Gold this year... but a dip now is a good entry point for reward halving in May.  Hard to scale how the virus will host with crypto.

A co-worker in one of our other offices told my wife that the local hospital is receiving training for COVID and expects a 40% mortality rate (co-worker's cousin is a RN)... I proceeded to call BS on the mortality rate and looked at the Spanish Flu numbers to try and compare.  Based on the current reported numbers of COVID, the case mortality rate is 3.4%, Spanish Flu was a 2-3% case mortality rate depending on what data you view.  In the US, Spanish Flu case mortality rate was less than 1% and we were in the midst of a World War and sending sickened troops home for treatment (the sickest of the sick, which quickened the spread here).  40% mortality rate would be Contagion style and we'd have serious social and political disruptions I'm assuming.  Honestly, depending on how many people that nurse spoke too and assuming that the COVID deaths haven't been grossly under-reported (and somehow she "knows" about it), I think she should maybe be reprimanded by the HMO.  Enough of that kind of talk gets around and you've got real panic in my neck of woods.

I don't hear run-down boot heals clocking up I-81 yet... but I do hear a sweet guitar.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on February 26, 2020, 08:25:56 PM

So good news for us here in America.  Trump has appointed Pence in charge of COVID-19.  No doubt the same man who claimed in 2000 that there is no causal link between smoking and lung cancer (despite the link being established in 1964) can put his expertise to the test and ensure all Americans (except the gay ones) are kept safe from disease.  Sweet.

I'm feeling safer already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 09:02:35 PM

Well Eddie Trunk is on twitter saying he was on a flight with a dr coming to be on TVs tomorrow in NYC go discuss the first case of it in the US. Take it for what it's worth, but it won't be surprising to see it here already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on February 26, 2020, 09:06:21 PM

Quote from: Harmony on February 26, 2020, 08:25:56 PM

So good news for us here in America.  Trump has appointed Pence in charge of COVID-19.  No doubt the same man who claimed in 2000 that there is no causal link between smoking and lung cancer (despite the link being established in 1964) can put his expertise to the test and ensure all Americans (except the gay ones) are kept safe from disease.  Sweet.

I'm feeling safer already.

We'll be fine. He'll set up some Coronavirus Conversion Camps and we'll just electroshock the sick people until they're healthy again. It'll be fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on February 27, 2020, 03:35:33 AM

It's an election year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 27, 2020, 07:13:00 AM

I like how the guy that we put in charge of the outbreak is a guy who doesn't believe in science.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on February 27, 2020, 07:14:58 AM

The thing I don't understand is that the "normal" flu is still around and more deadly than this new virus. So I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone is freaking out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 27, 2020, 07:16:39 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on February 27, 2020, 07:14:58 AM

The thing I don't understand is that the "normal" flu is still around and more deadly than this new virus. So I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone is freaking out.

Because it spreads way easier, we don't fully know yet how it works, and there is no vaccine yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on February 27, 2020, 07:18:27 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on February 27, 2020, 07:14:58 AM

The thing I don't understand is that the "normal" flu is still around and more deadly than this new virus. So I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone is freaking out.

I think the death rate is higher for the corona virus than for the flu. But yeah, the flu kills a lot of people in the US every year and we barely mention it. I'm certainly a little nervous about corona, but more due to the potential panic if we see widespread illness in the US than from the actual threat of getting sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 27, 2020, 07:36:45 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on February 27, 2020, 07:14:58 AM

The thing I don't understand is that the "normal" flu is still around and more deadly than this new virus. So I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone is freaking out.

If it is even close to the death rate of the flu, it could over load every hospital in the country.  There's some bad potential here beyond just the death rate.  It seems inevitable with how this is spreading.  I walk into work and on CNN in the lobby is someone in the US is confirmed but the origin is unknown.  Now that is why people are worried.  It seems uncontainable.  I don't think we should panic or anything, it's not the end of the world.  It does seem like a lot of people will die though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 27, 2020, 07:43:41 AM

Cramx3 mentioned hospital overload, and he's absolutely right, I forgot that. If everybody is busy attending to scores and scores and scores of people who are hospitalized / put in quarantine for the virus, who's gonna attend to you when you need a "normal" surgey? granted, the hospital is not selling a TV, "sorry, we don't have anymore, come back later", if you need surgery you'll have one, but such a fast spreading virus puts an insane stress on the load of work the staff of the hospitals have to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 27, 2020, 07:47:45 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on February 27, 2020, 07:14:58 AM

The thing I don't understand is that the "normal" flu is still around and more deadly than this new virus. So I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone is freaking out.

The flu doesn't usually kill people under 50.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 27, 2020, 08:13:49 AM

We have the first confirmed case in my state.  They were on that cruse ship, but that's enough to get things started.  It doesn't look like quarantines are working very well.

I'm overwieght but otherwise in good health, and my family is healthy as well.  I feel like I shouldn't be too worried, but it has killed a few doctors that were my age and younger. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 27, 2020, 08:23:19 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on February 27, 2020, 08:13:49 AM

We have the first confirmed case in my state.  They were on that cruse ship, but that's enough to get things started.  It doesn't look like quarantines are working very well.

I'm overwieght but otherwise in good health, and my family is healthy as well.  I feel like I shouldn't be too worried, but it has killed a few doctors that were my age and younger.

Well, do your part - wash often your hands, especially if you're touching stuff when outside, sneeze / cough in your inner forearm, and don't touch your eyes, mouth and nose with your hands. Hope everyone else does the same so nobody on public transports or the likes coughes, however accidentally, in your face.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on February 27, 2020, 08:28:54 AM

Quote from: axeman90210 on February 26, 2020, 09:06:21 PM

Quote from: Harmony on February 26, 2020, 08:25:56 PM

So good news for us here in America.  Trump has appointed Pence in charge of COVID-19.  No doubt the same man who claimed in 2000 that there is no causal link between smoking and lung cancer (despite the link being established in 1964) can put his expertise to the test and ensure all Americans (except the gay ones) are kept safe from disease.  Sweet.

I'm feeling safer already.

We'll be fine. He'll set up some Coronavirus Conversion Camps and we'll just electroshock the sick people until they're healthy again. It'll be fine.

Having watched how Pence handled the HIV outbreak amongst the people sharing needles in southeastern Indiana when he was governor here, I have all the confidence in the world that he will be just as incompetent and inept. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on February 27, 2020, 09:23:38 AM

^
Yup.

Only caught a brief thing on MSNBC this morning from a noted physician. 0.1% of those who get the flu die, while 2% of those who get this virus die. That's 20x more in that context.   Scary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on February 27, 2020, 09:56:39 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on February 27, 2020, 09:23:38 AM

^
Yup.

Only caught a brief thing on MSNBC this morning from a noted physician. 0.1% of those who get the flu die, while 2% of those who get this virus die. That's 20x more in that context.   Scary.

It is a bit scary when the context is extrapolated forward (meaning we assume the same case mortality rate regardless of the number of cases)... I'm not sure we should do that with a novel virus though.  I don't really know if the pros are doing that either.

The CDC estimates (high-end estimate) a total of 41-million Flu Illnesses between 10-1-2019 and 2-15-2020 resulting in an estimated 41,000 deaths (again high-end estimate)... so .1% case mortality mentioned by the Doc is accurate.  I think it's more appropriate to extrapolate the Flu mortality rate forward regardless of the number of cases because it's not a novel virus effecting a relatively small amount of the population as is COVID (82,585 cases at last count/ 2,811 deaths/ 3.4% case mortality rate/ 33K + recovered).  That recovery rate is a promising thing I think.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on February 27, 2020, 10:26:36 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on February 27, 2020, 07:14:58 AM

The thing I don't understand is that the "normal" flu is still around and more deadly than this new virus. So I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone is freaking out.

As others have said, the death rate of this virus thus far lies significantly higher (deaths/cases).

And Influenza is a known quantity. We know what is does to people, we know how quickly it evolves, we know what the risks are, we know the long-term effects etc. etc. And as we speak dozens of research groups are generating (or trying to generate) vaccines and finding solutions for influenza forms that aren't even there yet. I believe all the components and their functions of the Influenza virus are well understood as this point (or at least to a large degree?).

This form of the coronavirus, however, has many unknown factors. For example, it is possible it can evolve into something even more nasty through an antigenic shift with another virus, or perhaps the virus has some long term health implications in healhty people we don't know yet (cancer and the likes). Caution is essential for stuff like this.



But even Influenza can be scary, the 1918 "Spanish" flu killed significantly more people than the entire first world war and had a death rate around the 5%. And it killed healthy young people as well. Though healthcare has greatly improved, such a virus could still be a huge problem (which is why there is a lot of state/EU funded research into the subject).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 27, 2020, 11:47:36 AM

On the recovery matter, a Japanese case today was just revealed to be a re-infection after "recovering".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 27, 2020, 12:04:12 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 27, 2020, 11:47:36 AM

On the recovery matter, a Japanese case today was just revealed to be a re-infection after "recovering".

Yeah, I saw that as well.  It makes me wonder how many infections does it take before the average immune system catches up?

It would also be interesting to know how many of the current infections in China are repeat infections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 27, 2020, 01:13:50 PM

Found an excellent article that explains the whole situation with math.

Feel free to run it through Google translate:

https://www.corriere.it/cronache/20_febbraio_25/matematicadel-contagioche-ci-aiutaa-ragionarein-mezzo-caos-3ddfefc6-5810-11ea-a2d7-f1bec9902bd3.shtml

I'll try to make a very short summary.

Let's apply the "SIR" method, let's divide people into S / I / R categories.

S = Susceptible, people that could be infected.
I = Infected, those who were already hit by the virus.
R = Recovered, people who healed and no longer transmit the virus.

There's also another factor to consider: R0. Which value it is? it's average of people infected by someone who carries the virus. This value for the coronavirus is currently 2,5. Seems low, measles was / is around 15, but wait to be happy.

R0 needs to be below 1 for the infection to die out. If an infected person does not infect another one, the spreading of the disease (yeah, I thought about the song) stops. When R0 is above 1, we have an epidemic.

And now we come to the crucial issue - how long the disease takes to spread. The average time that elapses between when a person is infected, and when this person infects another. The coronavirus' time is measured at about 7 days.

This is why the governments adopted the measures they adopted. This is why Lombardy, the region in Italy where it all began, forced to close schools and ban social gatherings (such as concerts, Testament got canceled, luckily I wasn't planning to but sucks for those who wanted to) for a week.

This is also where all the inevitable comments, due to human nature, begin - it's too much, it's an exageration, what are they hiding etc... it's math. Governments take the decisions they take based on this model. That's why China sealed shut millions of people in their own homes. The value of R0 HAS to be brought below 1. No government in his sane mind would shoot their own economy in the foot AND the balls if it wasn't worth it.

The article mentions also what was discussed here some posts ago - if the number of infected people grows too much, the sanitary system collapses. You can't have hospitals full and people working there falling ill as well. If hospitals are ships, you can't have more people on a ship than the number of cabins, and take the sailors and put them in the cabins as well leaving no one at the helm.

And finally, a quick question: how many Susceptible people there are currently in the world? easy answer. 7 billions. Everyone on the planet. Because there is no vaccine yet. And this is why anti-vaxxers need to be gathered, and taken to an isle in the middle of the ocean and left there to fend for themselves against ferocious beasts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 27, 2020, 01:17:04 PM

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/wh-moves-to-screen-scientists-statements-on-coronavirus

As fears grow of a politicized White House response to the coronavirus outbreak, the White House has placed Vice President in charge of messaging about the virus, the New York Times reported Thursday.


Pence, who Trump said Wednesday night would be the White House point person on the outbreak, will clear public health officials’ statements on the virus, the Times reported citing several unnamed people familiar with the matter.

The White House also announced Thursday that top economic adviser Larry Kudlow, along with the surgeon general and the Treasury secretary, would join the White House Coronavirus Task Force.



Oh joy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 27, 2020, 10:08:54 PM

So Sweden now has 7 cases, all have been infected when travelling (China, Italy, Iran, Germany) or by someone who has travelled.
I expect this number to increase a lot now.
Schools all over the country have or have had a one week break and a lot of people have been travelling.

I'm not at all confident in the swedish authorities handling of the situation or on the possibility for hospitalizing an outbreak of coronacases.

Maybe it would be better to get this sooner rather than later.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Polarbear on February 28, 2020, 03:33:15 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on February 27, 2020, 10:08:54 PM

So Sweden now has 7 cases, all have been infected when travelling (China, Italy, Iran, Germany) or by someone who has travelled.
I expect this number to increase a lot now.
Schools all over the country have or have had a one week break and a lot of people have been travelling.

I'm not at all confident in the swedish authorities handling of the situation or on the possibility for hospitalizing an outbreak of coronacases.

Maybe it would be better to get this sooner rather than later.....

Here on the other side of the gulf in Finland, I think we have one confirmed case and several unconfirmed.

This is scary, but at this point I think the worldwide panic is more destructive than the virus itself. I'm not saying people shouldn't be careful, but you are just as likely to get run over by a drunk driver tomorrow, as you are to die to a Coronavirus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 28, 2020, 04:23:48 AM

Chris Hayes last night:


‘So here's what appears to be chain of events:

The Trump administration repatriated infected Americans over the objections of the CDC.

HHS then sent federal workers to interact with the infected population without adequate training or protection

Then those workers went out into the public with no monitoring or testing regime in place.

And now the first US-contracted case has appeared right near one of the airforce bases where this all happened.

When someone at HHS raised alarms about all this s/he was criticized for hurting morale and then ordered to another position or be fired.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on February 28, 2020, 04:55:21 AM

You mean to say the US is doing the same thing China was criticized for?


(https://media.giphy.com/media/3nIGQGcFyUhLq/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ChuckSteak on February 28, 2020, 05:20:02 AM

https://coronavirus.turnedmetal.com/?utm_source=FB+&utm_campaign=Coronavirus2020&utm_content=US_only&fbclid=IwAR1BmhRfGIqpRA6RB2mZuy0FwMJDciu4pudxO0RwLCLTxr36JapCB-z3BzY

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 28, 2020, 06:12:10 AM

Quote from: ChuckSteak on February 28, 2020, 05:20:02 AM

https://coronavirus.turnedmetal.com/?utm_source=FB+&utm_campaign=Coronavirus2020&utm_content=US_only&fbclid=IwAR1BmhRfGIqpRA6RB2mZuy0FwMJDciu4pudxO0RwLCLTxr36JapCB-z3BzY

I don't know why. But I feel compelled to buy that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on February 28, 2020, 06:44:58 AM

Well, we got an official statement today at work, a colleague is confirmed to have the virus (in the Netherlands). Not someone I know or have interacted with though. One of the first cases here. My mom actually called me if it was safe to come to my place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 28, 2020, 06:56:04 AM

We got one at my work as well, but for a different reason. My department handles creating our view of risk for catastrophic events (hurricanes, terrorism, wildfires, earthquakes, explosions following earthquakes, etc). One of the things we focus on is workers comp and loss of work claims. So for example, we have models and terabytes of data projecting what we'd have to pay out in workers comp claims if an Earthquake were to hit any particular block of San Francisco (or anywhere for that matter). We got an email from one of our vendors this morning, and they've started modelling the spread of Coronavirus in the US. If one of our policy holders owns a business in a popular city somewhere, and the virus somehow interferes with their business, they can make a claim. I guess the big insurance players are starting to look into how this could impact their bottom line in the upcoming quarters.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on February 28, 2020, 08:07:57 AM

I'm not an alarmist about these things and I still think Americans have more risk to get the flu at this point.  But I find myself questioning a lot of things right now.  One of my kids is graduating in May.  Will there be a graduation ceremony?  Who knows?  I'm trying to plan a lovely 2 week vacation in Hawaii in September.  Will I want to get on a plane in September?  Who knows?

Right now everyone is having these thoughts/discussions.  The travel industry - not to mention the economy - is going to be decimated at the very least if we don't get a handle on this soon.  After reading the whistleblower account of how federal employees were not properly trained to contact with potentially infected people, I'm not feeling very reassured.

Wouldn't it be an irony if a virus takes down Trump by default because the economy takes a nose dive?  *Not saying I want that to happen at the expense of human lives*  Or could the virus impact the ability to even hold an election?

So many questions....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 28, 2020, 08:10:45 AM

Quote from: Harmony on February 28, 2020, 08:07:57 AM

I'm not an alarmist about these things and I still think Americans have more risk to get the flu at this point.  But I find myself questioning a lot of things right now.  One of my kids is graduating in May.  Will there be a graduation ceremony?  Who knows?  I'm trying to plan a lovely 2 week vacation in Hawaii in September.  Will I want to get on a plane in September?  Who knows?

Right now everyone is having these thoughts/discussions.  The travel industry - not to mention the economy - is going to be decimated at the very least if we don't get a handle on this soon.  After reading the whistleblower account of how federal employees were not properly trained to contact with potentially infected people, I'm not feeling very reassured.

Wouldn't it be an irony if a virus takes down Trump by default because the economy takes a nose dive?  *Not saying I want that to happen at the expense of human lives*  Or could the virus impact the ability to even hold an election?

So many questions....

CALM DOWN WOMAN!

Pence is on this, okay?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 08:13:39 AM

Yea, our response here is pathetic.  I'm not sure there's much that can be done regardless, this will spread like wild fire even with our best methods of containment.  We just don't know enough about it to stop it, it seems.  We could and should be doing better, but I'm starting to get more worried about the panic than the actual virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on February 28, 2020, 08:24:13 AM

My mom is 65 and on chemo so I'm pretty scared. Not even sure if I should travel home to see her, since Norway has four confirmed cases right now, one in my city, and I have to pass through three airports (two of them teeming with people who went to Italy, Iran and China on winter break) to get to her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 28, 2020, 08:27:28 AM

So I don't really know how to feel about this. On one hand I get the concern if you're in a populated area, or if you're in frail health or are on the extremes of the age spectrum. Me personally: 29 year old perfectly healthy male who exercises regularly, lives in a rural area, has a fantastic immune system. I remember when the bird flu and swine flu were a thing, all sorts of other big things, absolutely zero concern with those. I had the common flu twice last year, worse than I've ever had in my life, but I haven't been sick at all this year. Is it wrong that I have zero concerns about this thing from my perspective?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 08:32:21 AM

I don't think so, I'm similar although in a more populated area.  I kind of expect to get it and just shake it off at some point.  I'm a healthy 35 year old who hardly gets sick besides a common cold here and there.  I've never been a germ freak and let my immune system build up.  But, people like Mora who has a relative in not good health should be a bit worried if the virus hits locally.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 28, 2020, 08:35:31 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on February 28, 2020, 08:27:28 AM

So I don't really know how to feel about this. On one hand I get the concern if you're in a populated area, or if you're in frail health or are on the extremes of the age spectrum. Me personally: 29 year old perfectly healthy male who exercises regularly, lives in a rural area, has a fantastic immune system. I remember when the bird flu and swine flu were a thing, all sorts of other big things, absolutely zero concern with those. I had the common flu twice last year, worse than I've ever had in my life, but I haven't been sick at all this year. Is it wrong that I have zero concerns about this thing from my perspective?

Well, maybe you'd get it and you would not even realize it. Mayve it would look to you like a normal cold, and you stay home from work just a single day. Or maybe it its you bad enough that you need to be hospitalized, and you become another addition on the unbearable number of people that doctors have to treat.

Yeah, I don't see how the coronavirus would kill you, but be safe. And by "be safe" I mean "wash often your hands, don't touch your eyes, mouth and nose with the hands, and don't cough with an open mouth", which if is something we all do, already helps a lot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:14:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 08:13:39 AM

Yea, our response here is pathetic.  I'm not sure there's much that can be done regardless, this will spread like wild fire even with our best methods of containment.  We just don't know enough about it to stop it, it seems.  We could and should be doing better, but I'm starting to get more worried about the panic than the actual virus.

Yeah, the virus isn't a threat but the panic is tanking everything.  A friend of mine at work said to stop worrying about the stock market.  I said, if everyone would stop worrying about the fucking virus, the stock market wouldn't even be an issue.  I'm not worried about the fucking virus, but my brokerage and 401K accounts are going down the fucking toilet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 28, 2020, 09:17:17 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:14:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 08:13:39 AM

Yea, our response here is pathetic.  I'm not sure there's much that can be done regardless, this will spread like wild fire even with our best methods of containment.  We just don't know enough about it to stop it, it seems.  We could and should be doing better, but I'm starting to get more worried about the panic than the actual virus.

Yeah, the virus isn't a threat but the panic is tanking everything.  A friend of mine at work said to stop worrying about the stock market.  I said, if everyone would stop worrying about the fucking virus, the stock market wouldn't even be an issue.  I'm not worried about the fucking virus, but my brokerage and 401K accounts are going down the fucking toilet.

To be fair, public panic isn't driving down the market. Institutions being afraid of supply chain interruptions in China affecting the next quarter or two, combined with rogue AI trading, is what's driving down the market. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 09:19:25 AM

There's a lot to take into account with the stock market and panic is one of many reasons it's tanking.  I shouldn't of checked my 401k  :censored but as I've said before, I'm not really worried for the long run with that, I'm far from retirement. 

I'm more worried about my plans.  I've got lots of concert tickets, a couple flights booked, things I want to do that maybe come time will be in jeopardy. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on February 28, 2020, 09:20:58 AM

I was a little worried about my kids, but what I've read is that kids are tending to get more minor symptoms than adults. I'm also more worried about the panic than the actual virus. I'm debating stocking up on some medical supplies and food just so we can hunker down for a while if needed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 28, 2020, 09:24:52 AM

What Chino said (vis-a-vis the stock market).  When firms like Apple are already giving forecast warnings because of supply chain disruptions, this is naturally going to have a legitimate (ie, not simply panic induced) economic impact.

My company CEO just put out a notice last night:
- all travel into outbreak areas (China, Japan, northeast Italy (including between our Rome and Milan offices) et...) is banned.
- all non-essential travel globally is cancelled until March 31st
- we'd already cancelled our customer conference in Asia that was supposed to be in a couple of weeks; we just made our European conference "virtual"
- All non-revenue generating open headcount is frozen.

So yeah... business are starting to make preparations for the economic impact, which will in turn create more economic impacts.

I'm not personally worried about my own health, but I am worried about how all of this is going to play out - regarding the health of the macro population, and the economic/financial impact.  US markets are down 12% already, and another 700 points today.

jingle.family is supposed to go on a Disney World trip the last week of April, and the first thought popped into my head as to whether we will actually go.  No plans to cancel yet, but depending on the trajectory of this, cancelling is not out of the question.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on February 28, 2020, 09:36:17 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 28, 2020, 09:24:52 AM

jingle.family is supposed to go on a Disney World trip the last week of April, and the first thought popped into my head as to whether we will actually go.  No plans to cancel yet, but depending on the trajectory of this, cancelling is not out of the question.

Might not be a bad time to go. It will probably be less busy than normal. But Disney has closed their parks in China and Japan, so I wouldn't put it past them to do the same in the US if things get bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 28, 2020, 09:51:10 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on February 28, 2020, 09:20:58 AM

I was a little worried about my kids, but what I've read is that kids are tending to get more minor symptoms than adults. I'm also more worried about the panic than the actual virus. I'm debating stocking up on some medical supplies and food just so we can hunker down for a while if needed.

I've seen the same thing.  I was initially worried about my kids, but now I'm not.  There are a lot of elderly in my commuity so I'm more worried about them.  I have extra food saved up, but I need to work a little more on other needs like toilet paper, diapers etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:57:01 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 28, 2020, 09:17:17 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:14:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 08:13:39 AM

Yea, our response here is pathetic.  I'm not sure there's much that can be done regardless, this will spread like wild fire even with our best methods of containment.  We just don't know enough about it to stop it, it seems.  We could and should be doing better, but I'm starting to get more worried about the panic than the actual virus.

Yeah, the virus isn't a threat but the panic is tanking everything.  A friend of mine at work said to stop worrying about the stock market.  I said, if everyone would stop worrying about the fucking virus, the stock market wouldn't even be an issue.  I'm not worried about the fucking virus, but my brokerage and 401K accounts are going down the fucking toilet.

To be fair, public panic isn't driving down the market. Institutions being afraid of supply chain interruptions in China affecting the next quarter or two, combined with rogue AI trading, is what's driving down the market.

The panic is driving all that, plain and simple.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 28, 2020, 10:03:04 AM

Way late to this thread but reading through it I don't have much more to really add. I'm not overly worried about 'my' health or my families....but.....with the rate this thing spreads and really no way to contain it.....the sheer amount of those that will most likely get infected makes it scary enough.

I don't think there's really anything mankind can do when the natural world decides to make a point

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 28, 2020, 09:24:52 AM

jingle.family is supposed to go on a Disney World trip the last week of April, and the first thought popped into my head as to whether we will actually go.  No plans to cancel yet, but depending on the trajectory of this, cancelling is not out of the question.

We have close friends who have spent the past couple weeks trying to convince my wife and I to join them for a cruise they're going on in July. I've been balking at it simply given I don't want to spend the money on it.....this Corona virus deal pretty much guarantees I won't be cruising anytime soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 28, 2020, 10:16:42 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:57:01 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 28, 2020, 09:17:17 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:14:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 08:13:39 AM

Yea, our response here is pathetic.  I'm not sure there's much that can be done regardless, this will spread like wild fire even with our best methods of containment.  We just don't know enough about it to stop it, it seems.  We could and should be doing better, but I'm starting to get more worried about the panic than the actual virus.

Yeah, the virus isn't a threat but the panic is tanking everything.  A friend of mine at work said to stop worrying about the stock market.  I said, if everyone would stop worrying about the fucking virus, the stock market wouldn't even be an issue.  I'm not worried about the fucking virus, but my brokerage and 401K accounts are going down the fucking toilet.

To be fair, public panic isn't driving down the market. Institutions being afraid of supply chain interruptions in China affecting the next quarter or two, combined with rogue AI trading, is what's driving down the market.

The panic is driving all that, plain and simple.

Explain.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 28, 2020, 12:14:23 PM

This may sound really morbid, but over the last few days I have suddenly gained the desire to read/watch The Stand. :facepalm:

Does that make me crazy?  Has that thought run through any of your heads as well?  And if so: book or film? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on February 28, 2020, 01:14:50 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 28, 2020, 08:10:45 AM

Quote from: Harmony on February 28, 2020, 08:07:57 AM

I'm not an alarmist about these things and I still think Americans have more risk to get the flu at this point.  But I find myself questioning a lot of things right now.  One of my kids is graduating in May.  Will there be a graduation ceremony?  Who knows?  I'm trying to plan a lovely 2 week vacation in Hawaii in September.  Will I want to get on a plane in September?  Who knows?

Right now everyone is having these thoughts/discussions.  The travel industry - not to mention the economy - is going to be decimated at the very least if we don't get a handle on this soon.  After reading the whistleblower account of how federal employees were not properly trained to contact with potentially infected people, I'm not feeling very reassured.

Wouldn't it be an irony if a virus takes down Trump by default because the economy takes a nose dive?  *Not saying I want that to happen at the expense of human lives*  Or could the virus impact the ability to even hold an election?

So many questions....

CALM DOWN WOMAN!

Pence is on this, okay?

Oh right, I forgot.  Phew. 

Plus I've got my face mask - made in China - on at all times.  (Never mind they don't protect me at all unless it's an N95.)  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 02:35:11 PM

Quote from: Chino on February 28, 2020, 10:16:42 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:57:01 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 28, 2020, 09:17:17 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2020, 09:14:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 08:13:39 AM

Yea, our response here is pathetic.  I'm not sure there's much that can be done regardless, this will spread like wild fire even with our best methods of containment.  We just don't know enough about it to stop it, it seems.  We could and should be doing better, but I'm starting to get more worried about the panic than the actual virus.

Yeah, the virus isn't a threat but the panic is tanking everything.  A friend of mine at work said to stop worrying about the stock market.  I said, if everyone would stop worrying about the fucking virus, the stock market wouldn't even be an issue.  I'm not worried about the fucking virus, but my brokerage and 401K accounts are going down the fucking toilet.

To be fair, public panic isn't driving down the market. Institutions being afraid of supply chain interruptions in China affecting the next quarter or two, combined with rogue AI trading, is what's driving down the market.

The panic is driving all that, plain and simple.

Explain.

Um, let's see.  For one thing, I never said public panic but that's certainly part of it and it goes right on up the line and then flows back down again like shit.  General panic in just about every corner of the global economy.  Another word is fear.  You even said it yourself.  "Afraid of supply chain interruptions".  That's just another form of panic.  Who do you think the supply chain affects?  Pretty much everyone.  Stock market volatility is being caused by panic over this stupid virus.  Panic is spreading faster than the virus itself.  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on February 28, 2020, 04:03:50 PM

Dr Drew has some good points but I guess the press won't listen anyway:

Dr. Drew Slams Coronavirus Coverage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWY0oZV51VY&feature=youtu.be)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on February 28, 2020, 04:44:33 PM

Super-spreader story from Norway: https://www.nrk.no/vestland/over-hundre-kan-ha-hatt-kontakt-med-koronasmittet-ulleval-ansatt-1.14922358

An employee at the hospital in Ullevål was on holiday in Italy, came back, worked for two days, got tested for the virus, turned back positive, and now they are contacting 100+ people this employee was possibly in close contact with during these two days. It's the eye department, so I'm hoping it's not someone treating people, just a receptionist or admin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dave_Manchester on February 28, 2020, 05:35:45 PM

Quote from: Harmony on February 28, 2020, 01:14:50 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 28, 2020, 08:10:45 AM

Quote from: Harmony on February 28, 2020, 08:07:57 AM

I'm not an alarmist about these things and I still think Americans have more risk to get the flu at this point.  But I find myself questioning a lot of things right now.  One of my kids is graduating in May.  Will there be a graduation ceremony?  Who knows?  I'm trying to plan a lovely 2 week vacation in Hawaii in September.  Will I want to get on a plane in September?  Who knows?

Right now everyone is having these thoughts/discussions.  The travel industry - not to mention the economy - is going to be decimated at the very least if we don't get a handle on this soon.  After reading the whistleblower account of how federal employees were not properly trained to contact with potentially infected people, I'm not feeling very reassured.

Wouldn't it be an irony if a virus takes down Trump by default because the economy takes a nose dive?  *Not saying I want that to happen at the expense of human lives*  Or could the virus impact the ability to even hold an election?

So many questions....

CALM DOWN WOMAN!

Pence is on this, okay?

Oh right, I forgot.  Phew. 

"Obama just appointed an Ebola Czar with zero experience in the medical area and zero experience in infectious disease control. A TOTAL JOKE!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/523237015329193984


As always with this guy, there's a tweet for every occasion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 28, 2020, 06:29:27 PM

 :lol so true

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 28, 2020, 08:41:49 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on February 28, 2020, 04:44:33 PM

Super-spreader story from Norway: https://www.nrk.no/vestland/over-hundre-kan-ha-hatt-kontakt-med-koronasmittet-ulleval-ansatt-1.14922358

An employee at the hospital in Ullevål was on holiday in Italy, came back, worked for two days, got tested for the virus, turned back positive, and now they are contacting 100+ people this employee was possibly in close contact with during these two days. It's the eye department, so I'm hoping it's not someone treating people, just a receptionist or admin.

According to Svenska Dagbladet it's a Doctor who has treated a lot of patients during the last few days.
Patients at the clinic are often elderly people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on February 28, 2020, 09:16:30 PM

Nothing to see here, thankfully. It's just a liberal hoax. I can go outside again.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/28/trump-south-carolina-rally-coronavirus-118269

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 28, 2020, 09:37:02 PM

He's such a fucking narcissistic moron.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 28, 2020, 09:39:16 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 28, 2020, 09:37:02 PM

He's such a fucking narcissistic moron.

LIKE HILLARY WOULD BE ANY BETTER

HOW DO WE KNOW HER EMAILS DIDN'T SPREAD THIS

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 28, 2020, 09:45:54 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on February 28, 2020, 09:16:30 PM

Nothing to see here, thankfully. It's just a liberal hoax. I can go outside again.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/28/trump-south-carolina-rally-coronavirus-118269

They are damn good at creating hoaxes thouse liberals.
Here in Sweden I could jhave sworn it was a real virus, but now.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 29, 2020, 12:09:07 AM

Just 4 new cases in Sweden yesterday making it 11 in total. I expected more.
But then again it's just a hoax so the fact that security equipment for health care professionals and isolation rooms for infected are limited should not worry....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 29, 2020, 07:12:10 AM

Woke up to news of a suspected case at the hospital down the street from me https://www.app.com/story/news/health/2020/02/29/coronavirus-suspected-case-reported-bayshore-holmdel-report-says/4912248002/ (https://www.app.com/story/news/health/2020/02/29/coronavirus-suspected-case-reported-bayshore-holmdel-report-says/4912248002/)

I kind of wish they wouldn't share this news unless it was confirmed

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on February 29, 2020, 08:23:24 AM

"We're ordering a lot of supplies. We're ordering a lot of, uh, elements that frankly we wouldn't be ordering unless it was something like this. But we're ordering a lot of different elements of medical." -- Trump on the coronavirus

Medical elements?   Elements of medical?  ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Volante99 on February 29, 2020, 10:28:09 AM

Just returned from a trade show. Manufacturing in China is more or less at a standstill. Going to be an interesting Q4 as retailers and companies are scrambling for product but everything is late or delayed. I’m more worried about the economic consequences at this point which we are already starting to see.

That said, SOME factories seem to be reopening so it MAY have peaked in China.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 29, 2020, 10:50:02 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 29, 2020, 07:12:10 AM

Woke up to news of a suspected case at the hospital down the street from me https://www.app.com/story/news/health/2020/02/29/coronavirus-suspected-case-reported-bayshore-holmdel-report-says/4912248002/ (https://www.app.com/story/news/health/2020/02/29/coronavirus-suspected-case-reported-bayshore-holmdel-report-says/4912248002/)

I kind of wish they wouldn't share this news unless it was confirmed

That's why I'm more worried about the fear and panic they're spreading. We know people have got it, but do we know those deaths were confirmed to be caused by the virus?

For me, Just take extra precautions, more than is usually done. That's pretty much all we can do.

This does remind me of the Futurama episode "Cold Warriors" where Fry gets the common cold, which didn't exist in the future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on February 29, 2020, 11:27:27 AM

I normally dislike Dr. Drew, but I think he's dead on.  The earliest outbreak I recall is SARS, which happened right after college.  And every single outbreak since gets all sorts of media coverage.  Not once has Chicago become a hotbed for disease and we're one of the largest cities in the US.  I commute tot he city by public transportation daily and have been getting flu shots for the last ten years, due to being on a train for 3 hours a day and having young children at home.  Not once have I ever been worried about an outbreak of disease.  A shooting in the train station in the city?  Sure, I worry about that, but getting sick...no.  I try to stay as germ-free as possible.

I'm not concerned about this outbreak in the slightest.  But in the suburbs around Chicago, where I live, surgical and protective masks are flying off of store shelves and school districts are advising families that they are working on plans in the event of an outbreak.  That's just silly, and Dr. Drew is right - it's 100% media driven.  The news reports it, people get worked up on social media and start pestering the schools about it.

If cases show up in Chicago (we had two that were isolated and have since recovered), I'll pay more attention, but treating this like some imminently deadly outbreak is off-base.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 29, 2020, 11:42:23 AM

First confirmed US death in Seattle

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on February 29, 2020, 11:51:23 AM

Had a high school near me closed for the last couple days, but turns out the suspected person tested negative. There are two more positive cases in the area, however.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 11:51:57 AM

Quote from: lonestar on February 29, 2020, 11:42:23 AM

First confirmed US death in Seattle

Welp and I’m on an airplane to Seattle to get back to the OC with a 2.5 hour layover in Seattle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 29, 2020, 11:56:28 AM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 11:51:57 AM

Quote from: lonestar on February 29, 2020, 11:42:23 AM

First confirmed US death in Seattle

Welp and I’m on an airplane to Seattle to get back to the OC with a 2.5 hour layover in Seattle.

As been said before - avoid strangers close to you. Wash often your hands. Don't touch your eyes, mouth or nose with the hands. If you have less than three hours to spend in the airport, find a nice resting spot and a restaurant that is not crowded, you should be fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 29, 2020, 12:03:15 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 29, 2020, 11:56:28 AM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 11:51:57 AM

Quote from: lonestar on February 29, 2020, 11:42:23 AM

First confirmed US death in Seattle

Welp and I’m on an airplane to Seattle to get back to the OC with a 2.5 hour layover in Seattle.

As been said before - avoid strangers close to you. Wash often your hands. Don't touch your eyes, mouth or nose with the hands. If you have less than three hours to spend in the airport, find a nice resting spot and a restaurant that is not crowded, you should be fine.

As far as I have heard it's not that spread in the U.S yet.... if you were going to Teheran it would be another thing but Seattle, you should be fine with normal precausions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 29, 2020, 12:21:03 PM

Yeah, and somehow I think SF will get the first big push, I'm pretty sure we got the biggest population of people going to and from China. I'm just waiting for it to explode here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 29, 2020, 12:25:43 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 29, 2020, 12:21:03 PM

Yeah, and somehow I think SF will get the first big push, I'm pretty sure we got the biggest population of people going to and from China. I'm just waiting for it to explode here.

Each and every one of them should be carefully checked, period.

The USA are lucky, they're learning from China and Europe's mistakes, they can see what worked and what didn't. If politicians consults doctors and people expert in these fields and do what they say, they should be able to contain it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on February 29, 2020, 12:39:05 PM

^
You are talking about a country whose leader (?) called it a hoax last night, and who assigned someone in charge who has a history of dragging his feet when facing a health crisis.

I am filled to the brim with confidence in their present and future actions

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 29, 2020, 01:45:27 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on February 29, 2020, 12:39:05 PM

^
You are talking about a country whose leader (?) called it a hoax last night, and who assigned someone in charge who has a history of dragging his feet when facing a health crisis.

I am filled to the brim with confidence in their present and future actions

He literally told people to pray HIV away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 02:13:43 PM

Flight has been delayed by an hour.  I hope this had nothing to do with the death.  I’m going to be stuck at the airport for 4 hours.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 29, 2020, 02:15:04 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 02:13:43 PM

Flight has been delayed by an hour.  I hope this had nothing to do with the death.  I’m going to be stuck at the airport for 4 hours.....

I doubt it but delayed an hour and stuck for 4... super cautious or was there no traffic in LA today?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 02:24:20 PM

No idea what caused the layover.  Was supposed to be about 2.5 hours of a layover.

Spoke to an airline customer support. They said it was mechanical reasons why the flight is delayed which I guess it’s the better reasons why the flight is delayed rather health reasons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 29, 2020, 03:21:30 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 29, 2020, 12:25:43 PM

The USA are lucky, they're learning from China and Europe's mistakes, they can see what worked and what didn't. If politicians consults doctors and people expert in these fields and do what they say, they should be able to contain it.

You're adorable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 03:28:10 PM

That should be what happens, but that’s not what I see will happen in this country.  There will be the usual blame whatever and not get things done as always.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 29, 2020, 03:34:23 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 03:28:10 PM

That should be what happens, but that’s not what I see will happen in this country.  There will be the usual blame whatever and not get things done as always.

It’s already been called a Democrat hoax and that dems hope millions die so they can blame trump. Brilliant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: max_security on February 29, 2020, 03:43:31 PM

The living room used to be called the " parlor " , the Spanish Flue of the early 1900's changed a few things like that ( sleeping with open widows in the winter as well ). If you live in an older place that's why the cast iron radiators are so big. I wonder what this one will change ?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 29, 2020, 04:04:52 PM

Quote from: max_security on February 29, 2020, 03:43:31 PM

I wonder what this one will change ?

Hopefully:

- Better hygiene for people
- A new era for smart working (in Milan the air has never been so clear, with many people working from home to avoid going around)
- A new worldwide and coordinated plan to deal with future epidemics like this, hopefully this will be a big lesson on how to deal with this kind of stuff

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on February 29, 2020, 07:15:25 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 29, 2020, 04:04:52 PM

Quote from: max_security on February 29, 2020, 03:43:31 PM

I wonder what this one will change ?

Hopefully:

- Better hygiene for people
- A new era for smart working (in Milan the air has never been so clear, with many people working from home to avoid going around)
- A new worldwide and coordinated plan to deal with future epidemics like this, hopefully this will be a big lesson on how to deal with this kind of stuff

I wish I could be so optimistic.  I kind of doubt anything will change much.  However, I do think office buildings should become a thing of the past and just let everyone work from home.  I do, and I love it!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 29, 2020, 08:22:57 PM

Quote from: Adami on February 29, 2020, 03:34:23 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on February 29, 2020, 03:28:10 PM

That should be what happens, but that’s not what I see will happen in this country.  There will be the usual blame whatever and not get things done as always.

It’s already been called a Democrat hoax and that dems hope millions die so they can blame trump. Brilliant.

This is what we've delved into as a country.   Instead of working together in a time of need, we politicize this epidemic.   People sicken me.  Bond together,

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 01, 2020, 03:33:22 AM

Well, that's today's human nature and don't think in Italy things are better.

The moderately problematic immigration issue, which peaked in numbers 2-3 years ago, has been HEAVILY politicized by the right wing populists and so it seems like we're being "invaded" while they're preaching to keep the "ports closed", since they lived in an imaginary world where we can do things all by ourselves, and surely they jumped on the bandwagon "hey, we said to keep ports closed all along!" as soon as the infection started.

However it was an italian that spread the virus around, and it was people from Lombardy who brought it to Sicily (south of Italy and landing point of many immigrant boats), to Algeria and Nigeria. WE infected THEM, not the other way around. That's basically like if someone in the USA would jump at the coronavirus scare to reiterate that mexicans should be kept outside of the USA with a wall, and then some american citizens would travel and infect mexicans  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 01, 2020, 05:31:20 AM

You laugh, but I’d bet my next pay cheque that will come out of Trump’s mouth the instant there is even a suspected case in Mexico.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 01, 2020, 08:07:48 AM

He's already hinting at closing the southern border.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 01, 2020, 09:29:28 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 29, 2020, 08:22:57 PM

This is what we've delved into as a country.   Instead of working together in a time of need, we politicize this epidemic.   People sicken me.  Bond together,

Agreed. This is why almost all politicians are disgusting human beings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 01, 2020, 10:57:20 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on March 01, 2020, 09:29:28 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 29, 2020, 08:22:57 PM

This is what we've delved into as a country.   Instead of working together in a time of need, we politicize this epidemic.   People sicken me.  Bond together,

Agreed. This is why almost all politicians are disgusting human beings.

I second that. People are dying, there is no place for politics in a situation like this. And both sides of the isle are responsible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 01, 2020, 01:35:38 PM

Right, and it didn't used to be like this, and it's not 'all' of the people from both sides.  Imagine how, oh any president from Teddy Roosevelt on up to Obama would have spoken to the country during this time.

My wife has been to many of the big cities in Europe.  Me, I've been to Rome, Barcelona (and various other spots along the 'shores')  We're following this because we have our second Mediterranean cruise all planned and paid for during the first two weeks of May.  Our first time to ever take a gondola ride while in Venice.

Don't think that's happenin' now.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 01, 2020, 02:55:49 PM

Isn't the ban to travel from USA to Italy up until the end of April? maybe you can still fly in....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 01, 2020, 06:42:27 PM

First case in NYC confirmed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 01, 2020, 07:44:58 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 01, 2020, 01:35:38 PM

Right, and it didn't used to be like this, and it's not 'all' of the people from both sides.  Imagine how, oh any president from Teddy Roosevelt on up to Obama would have spoken to the country during this time.

My wife has been to many of the big cities in Europe.  Me, I've been to Rome, Barcelona (and various other spots along the 'shores')  We're following this because we have our second Mediterranean cruise all planned and paid for during the first two weeks of May.  Our first time to ever take a gondola ride while in Venice.

Don't think that's happenin' now.....

I'm sorry man, that sounds like a really fun trip.  I hope you still get to go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 01, 2020, 07:47:13 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 01, 2020, 06:42:27 PM

First case in NYC confirmed.

Well, poop.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 01, 2020, 08:06:17 PM

2 deaths in WA. 10 cases in King County, 3 in Snohomish County (where I am).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 01, 2020, 08:13:21 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 01, 2020, 08:07:48 AM

He's already hinting at closing the southern border.

Yeah, I thought I read that the other day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Architeuthis on March 02, 2020, 12:07:55 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 01, 2020, 08:06:17 PM

2 deaths in WA. 10 cases in King County, 3 in Snohomish County (where I am).

Yeah I heard that on King 5 news,  and it's only gonna get worse. Ughh!   :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 02, 2020, 01:02:22 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 01, 2020, 06:42:27 PM

First case in NYC confirmed.

In what is basically one of the "capitals of the world" and most populous city of the USA? not good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 02, 2020, 03:59:15 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 02, 2020, 01:02:22 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 01, 2020, 06:42:27 PM

First case in NYC confirmed.

In what is basically one of the "capitals of the world" and most populous city of the USA? not good.

Well, at least you have a good health care sector (if you can afford to use it)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 02, 2020, 06:15:30 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 29, 2020, 12:25:43 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 29, 2020, 12:21:03 PM

Yeah, and somehow I think SF will get the first big push, I'm pretty sure we got the biggest population of people going to and from China. I'm just waiting for it to explode here.

Each and every one of them should be carefully checked, period.

The USA are lucky, they're learning from China and Europe's mistakes, they can see what worked and what didn't. If politicians consults doctors and people expert in these fields and do what they say, they should be able to contain it.

That should absolutely happen.

Though I do wonder how feasible it is to contain this virus, as people can carry the virus and pass it without symptoms or minimal symptoms. I think we have a pretty good response here and all politicians seem to take it seriously, but still it got through the cracks and more and more cases are piling up. I work in a large medical center and we have clear protocols anticipating the virus and how to take preventative measures, yet one of the first cases was an employee here.

If people without or with minimal symptoms can pass it, so you'd need to perform a diagnostic detection test. And performing that on every person just does not seems feasible, both financially and logistically.

https://www.sciencealert.com/researchers-confirmed-patients-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-without-showing-symptoms (https://www.sciencealert.com/researchers-confirmed-patients-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-without-showing-symptoms) (note: I am not familiar with sciencealert, it was the first EN source I found, but it mirrors the communication of reputable Dutch sources. And the site does link to actual published research).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 07:55:12 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 02, 2020, 06:15:30 AM

Though I do wonder how feasible it is to contain this virus, as people can carry the virus and pass it without symptoms or minimal symptoms.

I read somewhere at 80% of the cases are "mild" so to me, it seems a lot of people have/had the virus and because it didn't really effect them much, they aren't going to the doctor to be a "confirmed case" and therefore walking around and spreading... and then with the incubation period who knows how many people such a person would have been in contact with. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 02, 2020, 08:30:28 AM

I clipped this from Facebook and sent it to my wife.  A third case popped up in the Chicago suburbs and the local news stations and social media groups are starting to share and create more fear mongering and panic.  This was in the comments section of one group and it felt like a pretty good assessment of the virus.

Quote

Good morning! We thought it would be helpful to share our thoughts on the coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak. Although it has not hit North America yet, with it now spreading into Western Europe it is likely on its way and we want you to be as informed as possible.

Approximately 20% of the common colds we experience seasonally are coronaviruses. This viral family is nothing new, but over the years two strains have emerged that were more concerning. SARS and MERS had mortality rates of 9.5 and 34.5%, respectively. Fortunately these did not become widespread and have been contained. Unfortunately, we now have COVID-19 and it appears to be more easily spread and therefore harder to contain. Its origin is unclear and up for debate, as has been the quality of the data provided by China, but now we have numbers from outside of China (that are consistent with China's reports) and we have included them below for your review.




Current mortality statistics based on best available prelim data:
• average overall mortality rate 2.3%
• history of high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, chronic lung disease, or cancer is 5-10%
• no history of chronic disease <1%
• overall men 2.8%
• overall women 1.7%




By age:
• over 80 years old 15%
• 10-19 of age 0.0018%
• 0-9 years of age ~0%

On a positive note, we can breathe a sigh of relief that our children are clearly not at significant risk. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about our older family members (being male, elderly, and especially having chronic ailments puts one at greatest risk). The biggest problem is this illness is going to look like a sniffle for many of us and so it's easy for it to go unnoticed and unknowingly spread it.

So, what can we do..




HYGIENE
• Washing our hands thoroughly (under water for more than 15 seconds) is always the best and most effective preventative measure.
• Remind your kids to keep their hands off their face! Pathogens enter our body through the eyes, nose and mouth...
• Don't send your kids to school or the park when they may be contagious. For the common cold doctors typically advise 5-7 days of avoidance, but when kids feel better after 2-3 days so many of us send them back to school. It's therefore no surprise our flu seasons are long and challenging. With COVID-19 this practice needs to STOP (and it should anyway). Although our children may not be at significant risk, our beloved friends and families are.




TRAVEL
• The CDC is advising against non essential travel to China and South Korea.
• Until we know more, we would suggest restricting any travel outside of North America.




TESTING
• Your local clinics do not have a reliable test for this yet. Commercially available testing is on the horizon, but initial batches were faulty and so there have been delays. Our practice is actively searching for testing options and will spare no expense when they become available.
• Suspected cases are currently being referred to the department of public health for testing. The CDC is only advising testing for patients with cold symptoms who have traveled to China or have a known exposure to a COVID-19 patient.




TREATMENT
• For most of us COVID-19 will just look like a common cold. Currently there are no known specific treatments for COVID-19 other than supportive care.

What we should do if we develop cold symptoms (runny nose, fever, mild cough)
• isolate
• see your doctor
• treat fever with Ibuprofen and or Acetaminophen
• address congestion with nasal saline, humidifiers, steam showers, vics, cough and cold remedies (as age appropriate)
• Hydrate




If your cold moves into your chest see your doctor to rule out pneumonia.

• COVID-19 mortality is generally due to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and/or pneumonia
Early supportive care will improve outcomes. Options include:
• steroids to slow the immune response that can lead to ARDS
• Inhalers to improve lung function and ease breathing
• antibiotics to address and or prevent secondary bacterial complications
• inpatient care when extreme/necessary (diuretics, vents...)




Don't forget there are other illnesses out there...
• If fevers are high see your doctor to rule out influenza - Tamiflu/Xofluza work best when started early (preferably <48h)
• If you have a red sore throat with or without fever or an upset stomach see your doctor to rule out strep.




Coronaviruses are typically seasonal and so we can hope that by the time it gets here our weather warms, flu season ends, and this virus burns itself out. That said, with it so widespread worldwide there is a good chance it will become a seasonal threat, regardless. By then we hope that a safe and effective vaccine will be available. Until then we try to control spread and take care of each other.

In conclusion, please DO NOT PANIC. For the vast majority of us this is just another cold. Please let us help if you have any concerns.

Lawrence Kagan, MD, FAAP

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 02, 2020, 09:26:34 AM

Very informative. Thank you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on March 02, 2020, 11:23:44 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 02, 2020, 08:30:28 AM

I clipped this from Facebook and sent it to my wife.  A third case popped up in the Chicago suburbs and the local news stations and social media groups are starting to share and create more fear mongering and panic.  This was in the comments section of one group and it felt like a pretty good assessment of the virus.

Quote

Good morning! We thought it would be helpful to share our thoughts on the coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak. Although it has not hit North America yet, with it now spreading into Western Europe it is likely on its way and we want you to be as informed as possible.

Approximately 20% of the common colds we experience seasonally are coronaviruses. This viral family is nothing new, but over the years two strains have emerged that were more concerning. SARS and MERS had mortality rates of 9.5 and 34.5%, respectively. Fortunately these did not become widespread and have been contained. Unfortunately, we now have COVID-19 and it appears to be more easily spread and therefore harder to contain. Its origin is unclear and up for debate, as has been the quality of the data provided by China, but now we have numbers from outside of China (that are consistent with China's reports) and we have included them below for your review.




Current mortality statistics based on best available prelim data:
• average overall mortality rate 2.3%
• history of high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, chronic lung disease, or cancer is 5-10%
• no history of chronic disease <1%
• overall men 2.8%
• overall women 1.7%




By age:
• over 80 years old 15%
• 10-19 of age 0.0018%
• 0-9 years of age ~0%

On a positive note, we can breathe a sigh of relief that our children are clearly not at significant risk. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about our older family members (being male, elderly, and especially having chronic ailments puts one at greatest risk). The biggest problem is this illness is going to look like a sniffle for many of us and so it's easy for it to go unnoticed and unknowingly spread it.

So, what can we do..




HYGIENE
• Washing our hands thoroughly (under water for more than 15 seconds) is always the best and most effective preventative measure.
• Remind your kids to keep their hands off their face! Pathogens enter our body through the eyes, nose and mouth...
• Don't send your kids to school or the park when they may be contagious. For the common cold doctors typically advise 5-7 days of avoidance, but when kids feel better after 2-3 days so many of us send them back to school. It's therefore no surprise our flu seasons are long and challenging. With COVID-19 this practice needs to STOP (and it should anyway). Although our children may not be at significant risk, our beloved friends and families are.




TRAVEL
• The CDC is advising against non essential travel to China and South Korea.
• Until we know more, we would suggest restricting any travel outside of North America.




TESTING
• Your local clinics do not have a reliable test for this yet. Commercially available testing is on the horizon, but initial batches were faulty and so there have been delays. Our practice is actively searching for testing options and will spare no expense when they become available.
• Suspected cases are currently being referred to the department of public health for testing. The CDC is only advising testing for patients with cold symptoms who have traveled to China or have a known exposure to a COVID-19 patient.




TREATMENT
• For most of us COVID-19 will just look like a common cold. Currently there are no known specific treatments for COVID-19 other than supportive care.

What we should do if we develop cold symptoms (runny nose, fever, mild cough)
• isolate
• see your doctor
• treat fever with Ibuprofen and or Acetaminophen
• address congestion with nasal saline, humidifiers, steam showers, vics, cough and cold remedies (as age appropriate)
• Hydrate




If your cold moves into your chest see your doctor to rule out pneumonia.

• COVID-19 mortality is generally due to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and/or pneumonia
Early supportive care will improve outcomes. Options include:
• steroids to slow the immune response that can lead to ARDS
• Inhalers to improve lung function and ease breathing
• antibiotics to address and or prevent secondary bacterial complications
• inpatient care when extreme/necessary (diuretics, vents...)




Don't forget there are other illnesses out there...
• If fevers are high see your doctor to rule out influenza - Tamiflu/Xofluza work best when started early (preferably <48h)
• If you have a red sore throat with or without fever or an upset stomach see your doctor to rule out strep.




Coronaviruses are typically seasonal and so we can hope that by the time it gets here our weather warms, flu season ends, and this virus burns itself out. That said, with it so widespread worldwide there is a good chance it will become a seasonal threat, regardless. By then we hope that a safe and effective vaccine will be available. Until then we try to control spread and take care of each other.

In conclusion, please DO NOT PANIC. For the vast majority of us this is just another cold. Please let us help if you have any concerns.

Lawrence Kagan, MD, FAAP

Thanks man!  That's going out to family and friends!

The fear mongering makes me sick... :biggrin:

I tend to side with Chino/others regarding what's happening in the markets... most if not all of the big boys that can move percentages in the market (like we've seen over the past few trading days) are using algos to trade, taking human thought out of the decision and using pre-programmed parameters.  As we've seen just in our community here, companies of all sizes are preparing for supply-chain interruptions and as the prep-work goes forward and companies communicate that prep, investors and their algos will move with it based on their own tolerances that have already been programmed.  There is fear-mongering for certain and most of it silly, but supply-chain interruptions are real data points and the market is responding to it.  Good news is we've absorbed Friday's losses today with a little bit of creme on top (up 630~ as I write this).  Who said "buy the rumor, sell the news"?  Guess this time it's the inverse....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 02, 2020, 11:49:05 AM

Some of the data in that info may be outdated (as it says that no cases were in the US whenever it was written, which we know is not true as of now), but I think the general idea remains solid - this is a mild virus that is just SUPER contagious, but not super deadly. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 02, 2020, 11:51:14 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 02, 2020, 11:49:05 AM

Some of the data in that info may be outdated (as it says that no cases were in the US whenever it was written, which we know is not true as of now), but I think the general idea remains solid - this is a mild virus that is just SUPER contagious, but not super deadly.

Not super deadly to perfectly healthly people. The virus itself is not the problem - it's the combo of the lack of a vaccine AND the speed with which it spreads that makes it dangerous.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 11:54:39 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 02, 2020, 11:51:14 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 02, 2020, 11:49:05 AM

Some of the data in that info may be outdated (as it says that no cases were in the US whenever it was written, which we know is not true as of now), but I think the general idea remains solid - this is a mild virus that is just SUPER contagious, but not super deadly.

Not super deadly to perfectly healthly people. The virus itself is not the problem - it's the combo of the lack of a vaccine AND the speed with which it spreads that makes it dangerous.

Yea, no vaccine or way to combat it plus the way it spreads is the issue, but it should really only be alarming to the old and sickly.  Even children don't seem to be dying from this.  I'm pretty confident many of us will get this virus and shake it off this year, but going forward, we will need a vaccine or something to prevent the people who are most at risk here.  In some ways, I kind of feel like quarantines should be for those at risk so they don't get it, not for everyone else as there is just no way to contain this at this point IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 12:17:53 PM

And then you have reporting like this:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-doctor-predicts-massive-surge-172012985.html

I mean, technically, she's not wrong.  But the tone of that "announcement" is COMPLETELY off.  So bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 12:37:02 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 12:17:53 PM

And then you have reporting like this:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-doctor-predicts-massive-surge-172012985.html

I mean, technically, she's not wrong.  But the tone of that "announcement" is COMPLETELY off.  So bad.

I had just stumbled upon that and felt the same way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:13:20 PM

Handwashing is the #1 preventative measure and also the one thing that most people hardly ever do, or do properly.  Wash with soap and water thoroughly, rinse thoroughly, dry thoroughly.  I witness this probably about 5-10% of the time when I'm at work.  The majority just rinse for 5 seconds and dry after using the restroom.  If it happens that often just during the short periods of time that I actually see it every day, the number of times I don't see it must be staggering.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 01:16:05 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:13:20 PM

Handwashing is the #1 preventative measure and also the one thing that most people hardly ever do, or do properly.  Wash with soap and water thoroughly, rinse thoroughly, dry thoroughly.  I witness this probably about 5-10% of the time when I'm at work.  The majority just rinse for 5 seconds and dry after using the restroom.  If it happens that often just during the short periods of time that I actually see it every day, the number of times I don't see it must be staggering.

And that doesn't include the ones I see dash from the stall to the door without so much as glancing at the wash basin.  I've never understood that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 02, 2020, 01:21:28 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 01:16:05 PM

And that doesn't include the ones I see dash from the stall to the door without so much as glancing at the wash basin.  I've never understood that.

I know, right? It doesn't take that much time. I like to take it a step further, get up on my tip toes and wash my hands and my dick too!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:22:32 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 01:16:05 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:13:20 PM

Handwashing is the #1 preventative measure and also the one thing that most people hardly ever do, or do properly.  Wash with soap and water thoroughly, rinse thoroughly, dry thoroughly.  I witness this probably about 5-10% of the time when I'm at work.  The majority just rinse for 5 seconds and dry after using the restroom.  If it happens that often just during the short periods of time that I actually see it every day, the number of times I don't see it must be staggering.

And that doesn't include the ones I see dash from the stall to the door without so much as glancing at the wash basin.  I've never understood that.

Yes, I see that once in a while too and am borderline mortified by it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 01:27:00 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:22:32 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 01:16:05 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:13:20 PM

Handwashing is the #1 preventative measure and also the one thing that most people hardly ever do, or do properly.  Wash with soap and water thoroughly, rinse thoroughly, dry thoroughly.  I witness this probably about 5-10% of the time when I'm at work.  The majority just rinse for 5 seconds and dry after using the restroom.  If it happens that often just during the short periods of time that I actually see it every day, the number of times I don't see it must be staggering.

And that doesn't include the ones I see dash from the stall to the door without so much as glancing at the wash basin.  I've never understood that.

Yes, I see that once in a while too and am borderline mortified by it.

Ever go into the penn station bathroom in NYC?  There's a lot more to be mortified than the people who dont wash their hands  :lol (I had to stop in there over the weekend and was deeply disturbed so it's on my mind)  But yes, I do agree, who tf doesn't wash their hands in a public restroom? ew

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 02, 2020, 01:28:08 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 11:54:39 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 02, 2020, 11:51:14 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 02, 2020, 11:49:05 AM

Some of the data in that info may be outdated (as it says that no cases were in the US whenever it was written, which we know is not true as of now), but I think the general idea remains solid - this is a mild virus that is just SUPER contagious, but not super deadly.

Not super deadly to perfectly healthly people. The virus itself is not the problem - it's the combo of the lack of a vaccine AND the speed with which it spreads that makes it dangerous.

Yea, no vaccine or way to combat it plus the way it spreads is the issue, but it should really only be alarming to the old and sickly.  Even children don't seem to be dying from this.  I'm pretty confident many of us will get this virus and shake it off this year, but going forward, we will need a vaccine or something to prevent the people who are most at risk here.  In some ways, I kind of feel like quarantines should be for those at risk so they don't get it, not for everyone else as there is just no way to contain this at this point IMO.

I agree.  And it would be relatively easy to do.  Most could just self quarantine at home and they could tell family to not come visit unless protective precautions have been taken.  And best of all, the government wouldn't have to be involved by restricting the liberties of many millions of people and spraying who-knows-what all over everyone and everything.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:35:28 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 01:27:00 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:22:32 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 01:16:05 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:13:20 PM

Handwashing is the #1 preventative measure and also the one thing that most people hardly ever do, or do properly.  Wash with soap and water thoroughly, rinse thoroughly, dry thoroughly.  I witness this probably about 5-10% of the time when I'm at work.  The majority just rinse for 5 seconds and dry after using the restroom.  If it happens that often just during the short periods of time that I actually see it every day, the number of times I don't see it must be staggering.

And that doesn't include the ones I see dash from the stall to the door without so much as glancing at the wash basin.  I've never understood that.

Yes, I see that once in a while too and am borderline mortified by it.

Ever go into the penn station bathroom in NYC?  There's a lot more to be mortified than the people who dont wash their hands  :lol (I had to stop in there over the weekend and was deeply disturbed so it's on my mind)  But yes, I do agree, who tf doesn't wash their hands in a public restroom? ew

What do they do out there?  Piss in the wash basins?   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 02, 2020, 01:36:09 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 02, 2020, 01:28:08 PM

And best of all, the government wouldn't have to be involved by restricting the liberties of many millions of people and spraying who-knows-what all over everyone and everything.

???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 01:39:12 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:35:28 PM

What do they do out there?  Piss in the wash basins?   :lol

On one end was a guy passed out laying ontop of the sinks and the other end looked like a guy was cleaning his junk in the sink ala Podaar.  In the middle were people like me washing quickly trying to gtfo asap and of course plenty who just ran out without even thinking of stopping at the sinks.

That's not taking into account the people who are just sketchy and dirty af in those bathrooms lingering around

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 02, 2020, 01:40:37 PM

Ooo, I like the idea of quarantining those who are well. "Yeah, sorry boss. I'm staying home today because I feel really good. I'm sure you understand."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 01:45:26 PM

Quote from: Podaar on March 02, 2020, 01:40:37 PM

Ooo, I like the idea of quarantining those who are well. "Yeah, sorry boss. I'm staying home today because I feel really good. I'm sure you understand."

There's a lot of talk from people in my company and from some friend's companies about everyone working from home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 03:22:14 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 01:39:12 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2020, 01:35:28 PM

What do they do out there?  Piss in the wash basins?   :lol

On one end was a guy passed out laying ontop of the sinks and the other end looked like a guy was cleaning his junk in the sink ala Podaar.  In the middle were people like me washing quickly trying to gtfo asap and of course plenty who just ran out without even thinking of stopping at the sinks.

That's not taking into account the people who are just sketchy and dirty af in those bathrooms lingering around

Damn!  Break out the Geiger counter and scan for radio active waste residue within 20 feet of the door.  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 02, 2020, 04:44:33 PM

I can't help getting the felling that this virus is creepin up on you no matter how careful you are. So a student told me today that his family had been sick a week after a family trip to Italy, they got worried and they did a test for the virus which luckily turned out to be negative, I hope...

Now the trip was two weeks ago and I met the kid just days after they got home so basically before they got sick...  :|

Kind of makes you think how easily you can obtain it without knowing about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2020, 04:48:50 PM

Yea, thats exactly the problem and why I feel the same about this creeping up on us no matter what.  I just went to a concert in Brooklyn and am going to Philly tomorrow.  If someone near me at the concert had this incubating and passed ti to me, I am about to pass it to many in another city without knowing.  I've actually been thinking about that a lot today.  Mostly because my coworker called out with flu like symptoms today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 02, 2020, 05:09:34 PM

Does anyone find it odd that kids seem to be unaffected?  I mean, I'm happy about this and obvs it may change.  But kids are usually one of the MOST at risk groups.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 02, 2020, 05:13:33 PM

Honestly i'm not that worried about getting the virus myself however i'm much more worried about infecting people I care about especially my older parents and people in my inner circle without knowing it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 02, 2020, 05:14:50 PM

My coworker and I are pretty much consigned to the fact that we are getting sick. In fact we thought we'd time our coronavacations by purposely licking the hand rail at the Bart station when the virus gets rolling here

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 02, 2020, 05:39:47 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 02, 2020, 05:14:50 PM

My coworker and I are pretty much consigned to the fact that we are getting sick. In fact we thought we'd time our coronavacations by purposely licking the hand rail at the Bart station when the virus gets rolling here

Thank goodness, I got out of San Francisco when I did, last Monday, if that's what you guys were scheming.  Took a BART back on the previous Saturday.  Probably could have contracted something if I touched a hand rail.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 02, 2020, 05:43:32 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 02, 2020, 05:09:34 PM

Does anyone find it odd that kids seem to be unaffected?  I mean, I'm happy about this and obvs it may change.  But kids are usually one of the MOST at risk groups.

 It's to Kill off the old and wise so they can't pass their knowledge to the young.


That's also a concern for me how it's affecting mainly the old and frail. Causing them to perish sooner than the other coronaviruses that we have at least some vaccines for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 02, 2020, 05:52:12 PM

I've been hyper-conscious of touching my face today, and it's fucking crazy how many times I do so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 02, 2020, 06:17:29 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 02, 2020, 05:52:12 PM

I've been hyper-conscious of touching my face today, and it's fucking crazy how many times I do so.

Me too. I have been realizing this as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 02, 2020, 06:36:41 PM

We need an app that sounds an alarm whenever we touch our face.  Or one that triggers some sort of electric shock.   :laugh:

Even just thinking about not touching my face makes my nose itch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 02, 2020, 06:39:30 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 02, 2020, 06:36:41 PM

We need an app that sounds an alarm whenever we touch our face.  Or one that triggers some sort of electric shock.   :laugh:

Even just thinking about not touching my face makes my nose itch.

Right? Trying to remember some of the tricks from my CBT classes in early recovery. There was one where we'd use a clicker for every time we engaged in an unwanted behavior (being judgemental of someone for example). It's amazing how quickly the count rises.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 03, 2020, 02:01:24 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 02, 2020, 05:09:34 PM

Does anyone find it odd that kids seem to be unaffected?  I mean, I'm happy about this and obvs it may change.  But kids are usually one of the MOST at risk groups.

In children the innate immune system is stronger than in adults. In adults the adaptive immune system is more developed. I believe the hypothesis is that a strong innate immune system can effectively challenge/prevent a corona infection. And unlike flu, the adaptive immune systems of adults don't have experience with similar antigens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 03, 2020, 06:34:29 AM

Today I tried to be careful in my own little bubble and not fumble and be careful so to speak. Literally 5 secs after I accidently knocked the mug I have my toothbrushes in all over my dirty bathroom floor.

I think I might have to burn them all.

 :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 03, 2020, 07:43:55 AM

Nine new cases in Sweden today, all of them having been in nothern Italy. Some of them did not fly but take their own car.

In total we now have 24 cases.

I work at a small company with only about 40 people of whom 1 just come home from nothern Italy by car. The area the person was in, Trentino, does not have many casrs yet but a lot of Italians were there as well so....

Not totally comfortable with this..... hope the person does not develop symptoms

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 03, 2020, 07:53:27 AM

I have the suspicion that it's not that Italy is the 2.0 version of the Bubonic Plague, and that we're swamped with the disease while other nations are lucky. I'm afraid Italy has those many cases because we are currently and actively searching for them. And if systematic and thorough checks would be performed elsewhere, the numbers would rise drastically everywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 03, 2020, 08:06:13 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 02, 2020, 05:14:50 PM

In fact we thought we'd time our coronavacations by purposely licking the hand rail at the Bart station when the virus gets rolling here

???  You mean, you don't do that as a regular thing?  Am I the only one?

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 02, 2020, 04:44:33 PM

I can't help getting the felling that this virus is creepin up on you no matter how careful you are.

...

Kind of makes you think how easily you can obtain it without knowing about it.

Well, yeah, I mean, since it's basically a new strain of the common cold, which goes around all. the. time., of course it's easy to get.

Nothing in this is surprising, but this is a good quick reference for what it is and how it spreads:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/surfaces-sneezes-sex-coronavirus-cannot-132505758.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

For those in the US....so what would you do if you had symptoms - cough, fever, shortness of breath?  They don't want sick people just showing up at the ERs/UCs.  Call your primary doctor, right?  Well, primary docs don't have COVID-19 test kits.  They don't want you coming in either.  ERs/UCs don't have test kits either.  They could test you for influenza A or B and RSV.  But they don't want you coming in.  Where are you going to go?  What if you have an underlying condition like asthma or heart disease?

Self-quarantine and wait it out?  The recommendation is 14 days.  Will your employer be cool with a call - hey, I'm home with a fever and cough so have to be off work for 2 weeks.  My job is safe, right?  I'll still get paid for that, right?  Oh and hey - don't forget the note from your doctor.  You know, the one you can't go see.  Good luck!

The US response so far has been abysmal.  Test kits should've been widely distributed by early February.

If some other country wanted to know what our weakest spot is, I think they've discovered it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 03, 2020, 08:52:12 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

For those in the US....so what would you do if you had symptoms - cough, fever, shortness of breath?  They don't want sick people just showing up at the ERs/UCs.  Call your primary doctor, right?  Well, primary docs don't have COVID-19 test kits.  They don't want you coming in either.  ERs/UCs don't have test kits either.  They could test you for influenza A or B and RSV.  But they don't want you coming in.  Where are you going to go?  What if you have an underlying condition like asthma or heart disease?

Self-quarantine and wait it out?  The recommendation is 14 days.  Will your employer be cool with a call - hey, I'm home with a fever and cough so have to be off work for 2 weeks.  My job is safe, right?  I'll still get paid for that, right?  Oh and hey - don't forget the note from your doctor.  You know, the one you can't go see.  Good luck!

The US response so far has been abysmal.  Test kits should've been widely distributed by early February.

If some other country wanted to know what our weakest spot is, I think they've discovered it.

I have it on good authority that the US is getting many elements of medical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:55:24 AM

Shit, I keep forgetting.  Everything is going to be just fine.  Thanks for being the voice of reason, Adami.   :azn:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 03, 2020, 08:56:59 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

For those in the US....so what would you do if you had symptoms - cough, fever, shortness of breath?  They don't want sick people just showing up at the ERs/UCs.  Call your primary doctor, right?  Well, primary docs don't have COVID-19 test kits.  They don't want you coming in either.  ERs/UCs don't have test kits either.  They could test you for influenza A or B and RSV.  But they don't want you coming in.  Where are you going to go?  What if you have an underlying condition like asthma or heart disease?

Self-quarantine and wait it out?  The recommendation is 14 days.  Will your employer be cool with a call - hey, I'm home with a fever and cough so have to be off work for 2 weeks.  My job is safe, right?  I'll still get paid for that, right?  Oh and hey - don't forget the note from your doctor.  You know, the one you can't go see.  Good luck!

The US response so far has been abysmal.  Test kits should've been widely distributed by early February.

If some other country wanted to know what our weakest spot is, I think they've discovered it.

My upper management sent out a very long email last night with many times saying "stay home" essentially if you have any iota of having this.  So I think my company is cool with it if you are sick, but 2 weeks is a long time and I wonder how long it would be until they change their tune if things aren't getting completed.

Having said that, to answer your question, I would self quarantine.  If I had a chronic illness and felt this coming on, I would put a mask on and go to the hospital because that would be a life threatening situation IMO so best to place yourself there and also cover yourself up to prevent from spreading.  However, most cases are mild so if I felt like I was potentially getting this virus, for me, I would bunker down at home and not let anyone over.  Maybe ask a friend or family member to drop food off outside the house or something for me (assuming I ran out during my self quarantine).  I see little reason to visit a primary care doctor since like you said, they don't have tests so there's not much they can do other than charge you while you potentially spread the virus more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 03, 2020, 09:00:48 AM

I'd do the normal thing.  Stay home if I have a fever.  Go into work otherwise.  I've gone to work with head-cold symptoms.   

I broke my foot 7 weeks ago.  My boss was lenient and let me work from home for a week and a half until I confirmed that I wouldn't need surgery.  After that, it was "you better get your ass in the office now." 

Unless my corporate office declares otherwise, I'll be working.  My boss won't want me to stay home if I just have super-catchy cold symptoms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 03, 2020, 09:02:42 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 03, 2020, 08:56:59 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

For those in the US....so what would you do if you had symptoms - cough, fever, shortness of breath?  They don't want sick people just showing up at the ERs/UCs.  Call your primary doctor, right?  Well, primary docs don't have COVID-19 test kits.  They don't want you coming in either.  ERs/UCs don't have test kits either.  They could test you for influenza A or B and RSV.  But they don't want you coming in.  Where are you going to go?  What if you have an underlying condition like asthma or heart disease?

Self-quarantine and wait it out?  The recommendation is 14 days.  Will your employer be cool with a call - hey, I'm home with a fever and cough so have to be off work for 2 weeks.  My job is safe, right?  I'll still get paid for that, right?  Oh and hey - don't forget the note from your doctor.  You know, the one you can't go see.  Good luck!

The US response so far has been abysmal.  Test kits should've been widely distributed by early February.

If some other country wanted to know what our weakest spot is, I think they've discovered it.

My upper management sent out a very long email last night with many times saying "stay home" essentially if you have any iota of having this.  So I think my company is cool with it if you are sick, but 2 weeks is a long time and I wonder how long it would be until they change their tune if things aren't getting completed.

Having said that, to answer your question, I would self quarantine.  If I had a chronic illness and felt this coming on, I would put a mask on and go to the hospital because that would be a life threatening situation IMO so best to place yourself there and also cover yourself up to prevent from spreading.  However, most cases are mild so if I felt like I was potentially getting this virus, for me, I would bunker down at home and not let anyone over.  Maybe ask a friend or family member to drop food off outside the house or something for me (assuming I ran out during my self quarantine).  I see little reason to visit a primary care doctor since like you said, they don't have tests so there's not much they can do other than charge you while you potentially spread the virus more.

My work has sent out a few emails as well, especially now that they moved all of Hartford in open office floor plans. Luckily we're in a department where we'll be able to work from home if need be.

My GP is fucking useless. I had the flu two years ago and they couldn't even test for that. They told me to go to an Urgent Care facility instead. As for the hospital, I'd go there for sure. Though, I'd call them first and tell them I'm coming. They might have some kind of procedure where staff will meet you outside and bring you in an entrance other than the public ER one, just to be on the safe side.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 03, 2020, 09:04:36 AM

I was listening to NPR yesterday, and in the interview with some Health Care and Economics people, it was said that 55% of people in the Food Service and Health Care industries do not have access to sick time in their jobs.  So these workers, in the industries that can cause a HUGE impact, have to make a decision..... to stay home when sick and not get paid (and possible not pay bills), or go to work sick, get paid, pay bills, and likely make the health situation far worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 03, 2020, 09:04:48 AM

I just sent one of my employees home. He was out yesterday with "flu-like symptoms". Told him to take care of himself but yet he showed up today still feeling like crap ( I appreciate his commitment but I rather him get better and not spread anything, be it the flu or coronavirus).

@Harmony: I probably would do the same as CramX. Stay home unless I feel is life threatening. A second case was confirmed in NY and 2 schools closed down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 03, 2020, 09:24:46 AM

I can do the vast majority of my work from home, so I'd likely swing by the office to grab my computer and then work from home for a while. The reality for me though is that I have never skipped a day of work for a cold. So I'd be reluctant to take PTO for what just felt like a mild cold, which is likely what it would be for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 03, 2020, 09:48:29 AM

I feel pretty fortunate to be able to work from home.  Generally I only go into the office once a week.  And if the coronavirus spreads in my state I know already that my department would issue mandatory telework for a period of time.

And I think Harmony brought up a really good point with testing kits and going to the doctor.  And there's one other issue I would like to add to that.  The Cost!  Going to your family doctor is a LOT cheaper than going to the hospital.  If I had to choose between going the to the hospital and staying home if I suspected I had the coronavirus, I would stay home.

I know I've been more on the fear mongering side most of this thread, but this morning caused me to realize that there are certainly far worst things out there.  I don't know if any of you were near the tornados in Tennessee today, but so far there are 19 dead.  That happened in one day in one local area.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 03, 2020, 09:56:43 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 03, 2020, 09:04:48 AM

I just sent one of my employees home. He was out yesterday with "flu-like symptoms". Told him to take care of himself but yet he showed up today still feeling like crap ( I appreciate his commitment but I rather him get better and not spread anything, be it the flu or coronavirus).

This was a big part of the email last night from management.  You aren't a hero for coming in sick, stay home before you make it worse for everyone.  You are actually the opposite of a hero if you come in sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 03, 2020, 11:08:41 AM

We have the first case confirmed in Argentina. This thing is spreading really fast

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 03, 2020, 11:49:05 AM

Found this as a good source for a quick overview

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 03, 2020, 12:08:23 PM

Good indeed!

Encouraging to see Italy having way more recovered people than South Korea, even if we have half of the infected people. Also nice to see that the number of critical people is relatively low.

As it has been said before, the problem it's not the virus itself, it's "just" another cold. The problems are given by the combination of:
- Lack of a vaccine
- Fast spreading
- Hazard to elder and sick people

All of this conspired to put enormous and unsustainable pressure on the hospitals, who can't simply treat EVERYONE at the SAME time. It even causes problems for people who have other "ordinary" issues or needs, because the attention of the entire medical staff is diverted on the patients already recovered for the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2020, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

Will your employer be cool with a call - hey, I'm home with a fever and cough so have to be off work for 2 weeks.  My job is safe, right?  I'll still get paid for that, right?

Well no, you don't say 2 weeks if you don't know what it is.  Treat it like a cold, do whatever it takes to get better and see what happens.  That's all you can do.  Whether you get paid or not depends on your benefits.  Job security shouldn't be an issue.  Even if you go to short term disability after 5 consecutive days, they can't lay you off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 04:22:12 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2020, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

Will your employer be cool with a call - hey, I'm home with a fever and cough so have to be off work for 2 weeks.  My job is safe, right?  I'll still get paid for that, right?

Well no, you don't say 2 weeks if you don't know what it is.  Treat it like a cold, do whatever it takes to get better and see what happens.  That's all you can do.  Whether you get paid or not depends on your benefits.  Job security shouldn't be an issue.  Even if you go to short term disability after 5 consecutive days, they can't lay you off.

Right - there's an algorithm and as more of the population is tested and found to be positive, the greater the chance we all will eventually be in the algorithm that recommends self-quarantine for 14 days.  For example, if someone in your household tests positive and then you develop symptoms.

And as was mentioned before, many many people do not get any kind of sick time benefits at all.  Especially people who work in the industry that serves us our food.   :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 03, 2020, 04:25:25 PM

There's literally no way anybody at my job can afford to take anywhere NEAR 2 weeks off. Not even close. Even one guy being gone sick for a day is rough.

If you work at anything larger than a small business and can get time off like that you're extremely lucky especially if you can work from home. I'd totally take advantage of that!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 03, 2020, 05:58:14 PM

King county in Washington declared a state of emergency  :-\ be safe anyone in the northwest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 03, 2020, 06:52:09 PM

I put zero stock in that considering how crappy I think the county leadership is. It's actually been a statewide "state of emergency" for a few days now.

All these petitions are cropping up online DEMANDING school districts (and even UW) close down. Based on no real facts or evidence any of these institutions are at risk. One school closed when a staff member's spouse or something returned from overseas and was sick. Ok.. valid concern there. But she tested negative for Covid-19 and the school reopened.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 03, 2020, 07:45:45 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 04:22:12 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2020, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

Will your employer be cool with a call - hey, I'm home with a fever and cough so have to be off work for 2 weeks.  My job is safe, right?  I'll still get paid for that, right?

Well no, you don't say 2 weeks if you don't know what it is.  Treat it like a cold, do whatever it takes to get better and see what happens.  That's all you can do.  Whether you get paid or not depends on your benefits.  Job security shouldn't be an issue.  Even if you go to short term disability after 5 consecutive days, they can't lay you off.

Right - there's an algorithm and as more of the population is tested and found to be positive, the greater the chance we all will eventually be in the algorithm that recommends self-quarantine for 14 days.  For example, if someone in your household tests positive and then you develop symptoms.

And as was mentioned before, many many people do not get any kind of sick time benefits at all.  Especially people who work in the industry that serves us our food.   :-\

So true. If this thing does catch on, eat at home folks. Take it from a restaurant industry worker who'd be hard pressed to take two weeks of for the sniffles

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 03, 2020, 08:15:47 PM

No way anyone with a work ethic takes 2 weeks off like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 03, 2020, 08:20:41 PM

I gave my manager my vacation schedule for the year, and showed him the 10 days I'd be in Italy, and then I told him to plan on me being quarantined for the next two weeks after that.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 03, 2020, 08:59:35 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 03, 2020, 08:15:47 PM

No way anyone with a work ethic takes 2 weeks off like that.

You've obviously never been part of a union.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 03, 2020, 10:11:48 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 03, 2020, 08:59:35 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 03, 2020, 08:15:47 PM

No way anyone with a work ethic takes 2 weeks off like that.

You've obviously never been part of a union.  :biggrin:

Emphasis on 'with a work ethic'...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 10:40:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 03, 2020, 06:52:09 PM

I put zero stock in that considering how crappy I think the county leadership is. It's actually been a statewide "state of emergency" for a few days now.

All these petitions are cropping up online DEMANDING school districts (and even UW) close down. Based on no real facts or evidence any of these institutions are at risk. One school closed when a staff member's spouse or something returned from overseas and was sick. Ok.. valid concern there. But she tested negative for Covid-19 and the school reopened.

If parents are so concerned, why not just keep their kids home from school?  Schools look to their county public health system for advice on closing after an outbreak of a communicable disease.  Those decisions are based on science, not emotion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 12:17:56 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 10:40:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 03, 2020, 06:52:09 PM

I put zero stock in that considering how crappy I think the county leadership is. It's actually been a statewide "state of emergency" for a few days now.

All these petitions are cropping up online DEMANDING school districts (and even UW) close down. Based on no real facts or evidence any of these institutions are at risk. One school closed when a staff member's spouse or something returned from overseas and was sick. Ok.. valid concern there. But she tested negative for Covid-19 and the school reopened.

If parents are so concerned, why not just keep their kids home from school?  Schools look to their county public health system for advice on closing after an outbreak of a communicable disease.  Those decisions are based on science, not emotion.

Because... well... parents. Our district has done a great job keeping us informed as to their plans, and that includes working with the county health department. As far as keeping kids home, these moms (yes I am saying moms, because it's the moms who are all over facebook/social media clamoring for the schools to close) don't want their kids to miss school. Closing schools is a better way to assuage their worry than keeping their kid at home to keep them safe from the bad germs, despite any evidence that the virus has hit the schools, students, or staff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 04, 2020, 06:45:39 AM

And, in a lot of places, it's illegal to keep your kids home from school for an extended length of time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 04, 2020, 08:10:11 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 12:17:56 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 03, 2020, 10:40:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 03, 2020, 06:52:09 PM

I put zero stock in that considering how crappy I think the county leadership is. It's actually been a statewide "state of emergency" for a few days now.

All these petitions are cropping up online DEMANDING school districts (and even UW) close down. Based on no real facts or evidence any of these institutions are at risk. One school closed when a staff member's spouse or something returned from overseas and was sick. Ok.. valid concern there. But she tested negative for Covid-19 and the school reopened.

If parents are so concerned, why not just keep their kids home from school?  Schools look to their county public health system for advice on closing after an outbreak of a communicable disease.  Those decisions are based on science, not emotion.

Because... well... parents. Our district has done a great job keeping us informed as to their plans, and that includes working with the county health department. As far as keeping kids home, these moms (yes I am saying moms, because it's the moms who are all over facebook/social media clamoring for the schools to close) don't want their kids to miss school. Closing schools is a better way to assuage their worry than keeping their kid at home to keep them safe from the bad germs, despite any evidence that the virus has hit the schools, students, or staff.

I hear what you are saying - believe me - but this makes me laugh.  Closing schools means kids miss school too.  Do these 'moms' not get that?  Geeze.  It's just ridiculous.   :facepalm:

Maybe it's their diabolical plan to close the schools now so the school year will have to be lengthened into summer break and these moms can continue on with their cross fit work outs and not have to pay for childcare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 04, 2020, 08:11:54 AM

But if school's close, they will add more days/weeks whatever to meet the curriculum. If a child just stays home, they just lose out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 04, 2020, 08:49:55 AM

4 new cases in NY, all related to the case from yesterday. The attorney infected his son, his daughter, his wife and the neighbor (who drove the man to the hospital).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 04, 2020, 08:58:15 AM

Some students also have attendance requirements in order to qualify for a scholarship.  So if they miss any (or too many) days due to sick time, they can lose out on a scholarship opportunity.  Those parents have to weigh the options.  I know that unless there is a more severe outbreak of a truly deadly illness that is affecting children, I'd tell my kids to go to school.

It's great that schools are being proactive, but the hysteria and panic aren't needed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM

A buddy of mine hangs drywall for a living and can't work today because they can't find masks anywhere. I'm talking about the 100% non-medical use masks you'd buy at Home Depot or Lowes

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 09:21:33 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM

A buddy of mine hangs drywall for a living and can't work today because they can't find masks anywhere. I'm talking about the 100% non-medical use masks you'd buy at Home Depot or Lowes

I am at Home Depot every other day for work and I can vouch for the fact that the shelf with the masks is always empty. Last time I saw a sign that said "limit 10 per customer." Why does he need a mask to hang drywall though? I assume he's doing other work too?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 04, 2020, 09:33:17 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 09:21:33 AM

Why does he need a mask to hang drywall though? I assume he's doing other work too?

I'm guessing the dust from cutting it.  Nasty stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 04, 2020, 09:37:22 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 09:21:33 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM

A buddy of mine hangs drywall for a living and can't work today because they can't find masks anywhere. I'm talking about the 100% non-medical use masks you'd buy at Home Depot or Lowes

I am at Home Depot every other day for work and I can vouch for the fact that the shelf with the masks is always empty. Last time I saw a sign that said "limit 10 per customer." Why does he need a mask to hang drywall though? I assume he's doing other work too?

Silica dust among other things. If you're just hanging full sheets, you're fine. But once you start cutting it up and making openings for light fixtures, outlets, switches, etc... fine dust starts getting everywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 09:49:16 AM

My crew doesn't wear masks for drywall. But they aren't the most safety-conscious. :-)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 04, 2020, 09:56:53 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM

A buddy of mine hangs drywall for a living and can't work today because they can't find masks anywhere. I'm talking about the 100% non-medical use masks you'd buy at Home Depot or Lowes

That is really unfortunate.  I'm kind of a prepper type person and I have stores of food and water and a few other necessities, but I haven't bought any masks and don't plan to.  They are only helpful if you're already sick to prevent spread.  From what I understand they don't really help you from getting the virus.  Washing hands and not touching face are far more effective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 04, 2020, 10:02:38 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 04, 2020, 09:56:53 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM

A buddy of mine hangs drywall for a living and can't work today because they can't find masks anywhere. I'm talking about the 100% non-medical use masks you'd buy at Home Depot or Lowes

That is really unfortunate.  I'm kind of a prepper type person and I have stores of food and water and a few other necessities, but I haven't bought any masks and don't plan to.  They are only helpful if you're already sick to prevent spread.  From what I understand they don't really help you from getting the virus.  Washing hands and not touching face are far more effective.

The only reason a mask is appealing to me is that it will prevent me from touching my face, which I'm realizing now how frequently I do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 04, 2020, 10:42:29 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 04, 2020, 10:02:38 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 04, 2020, 09:56:53 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM

A buddy of mine hangs drywall for a living and can't work today because they can't find masks anywhere. I'm talking about the 100% non-medical use masks you'd buy at Home Depot or Lowes

That is really unfortunate.  I'm kind of a prepper type person and I have stores of food and water and a few other necessities, but I haven't bought any masks and don't plan to.  They are only helpful if you're already sick to prevent spread.  From what I understand they don't really help you from getting the virus.  Washing hands and not touching face are far more effective.

The only reason a mask is appealing to me is that it will prevent me from touching my face, which I'm realizing now how frequently I do.

There is another use for your hand cuffs 😉

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 04, 2020, 10:43:25 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 09:49:16 AM

My crew doesn't wear masks for drywall. But they aren't the most safety-conscious. :-)

I don't think it's required or anything like that, but he got the short end of the stick when it comes to asthma, so he wears one pretty much regardless what he's doing on a site.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 04, 2020, 11:29:03 AM

First case in North Carolina.

Here in Wake County.

Yay!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 04, 2020, 12:00:50 PM

Not to be insensitive, but I kind of react to "first case in _______" announcements as: :dunno:  I mean, I just feel that it's inevitable that there will be cases virtually everywhere, given the nature of it and how widespread other strains of corona have been throughout history.  Folks just need to be vigilant about their habits to make sure to minimize the spread and its impact.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 04, 2020, 12:28:32 PM

Talking about first cases.... one in my hometown. Not Milan, the precise town where I live (which is attached to Milan anyway). Luckily for me I basically only sleep here, then I work in Milan all day so I don't go around in my town, I just hope my folks minimize going outside as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 04, 2020, 12:29:54 PM

16 new cases in Stockholm, taking the total up to 31. Sweden now has 52 known cases.
Lot's of people from Stockholm were in nothern Italy last week and came home on sunday so we will probably see many more cases in the coming week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 04, 2020, 12:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 04, 2020, 12:00:50 PM

Not to be insensitive, but I kind of react to "first case in _______" announcements as: :dunno:  I mean, I just feel that it's inevitable that there will be cases virtually everywhere, given the nature of it and how widespread other strains of corona have been throughout history.  Folks just need to be vigilant about their habits to make sure to minimize the spread and its impact.

The individual here apparently visited the nursing home in Washington where there has been so much trouble.

It's a small world, after all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on March 04, 2020, 03:35:15 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 04, 2020, 12:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 04, 2020, 12:00:50 PM

Not to be insensitive, but I kind of react to "first case in _______" announcements as: :dunno:  I mean, I just feel that it's inevitable that there will be cases virtually everywhere, given the nature of it and how widespread other strains of corona have been throughout history.  Folks just need to be vigilant about their habits to make sure to minimize the spread and its impact.

The individual here apparently visited the nursing home in Washington where there has been so much trouble.

It's a small world, after all.

So small in fact that it's hard to comprehend.  A very good friend of mine travels all over the world for Metler Toledo and he's been in China, Japan, and Indonesia since December; our Spring golf trip may be postponed because of it.  He's not sick at all, just being cautious.

No worries Hef... Baptist is a great hospital.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Spiritus on March 04, 2020, 04:13:15 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 09:21:33 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM

A buddy of mine hangs drywall for a living and can't work today because they can't find masks anywhere. I'm talking about the 100% non-medical use masks you'd buy at Home Depot or Lowes

I am at Home Depot every other day for work and I can vouch for the fact that the shelf with the masks is always empty. Last time I saw a sign that said "limit 10 per customer." Why does he need a mask to hang drywall though? I assume he's doing other work too?

Many drywallers also do the mudding and sanding. If you are sanding for a living and not wearing a mask you won't be living long

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 04, 2020, 11:15:49 PM

A major school district in my area (though not the one we are a part of) has just announced they will close all schools for 2 weeks, as "A parent/volunteer tested "presumptively positive" for coronavirus. " The district covers approx 22,000 students. There is a long (but not unreasonably so) letter from the superintendent here.

https://www.nsd.org/blog/~board/superintendent-blog/post/letter-to-families-all-schools-closed-march-5

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 05, 2020, 06:05:11 AM

No Time To Die (the new Bond film) got postponed to November of this year (was supposed to be released in April)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 06:07:48 AM

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 05, 2020, 06:05:11 AM

No Time To Die (the new Bond film) got postponed to November of this year (was supposed to be released in April)

WTF :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 05, 2020, 06:13:19 AM

Everything is good, guys and gals. President Big-Brain has spoken.

I think 3.4% is really a false number. This is just my hunch, but based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people that do this because a lot of people will have this and it’s very mild. They’ll get better very rapidly. They don’t even see a doctor. They don’t even call a doctor. You never hear about those people. So you can’t put them down in the category of the overall population in terms of this corona flu and/or virus. So you just can’t do that. So, if you know, we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work. Some of them go to work, but they get better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 05, 2020, 06:18:53 AM

In fairness, he's mostly correct. Something like 80% of people who get it have mild cold-like symptoms. Many are non-symptomatic carriers. The majority don't need to and probably shouldn't see their doctor, just like we do with a common cold. Of course Trump sounds like an idiot, as usual though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 05, 2020, 06:33:01 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 05, 2020, 06:18:53 AM

In fairness, he's mostly correct. Something like 80% of people who get it have mild cold-like symptoms. Many are non-symptomatic carriers. The majority don't need to and probably shouldn't see their doctor, just like we do with a common cold. Of course Trump sounds like an idiot, as usual though.

It's still careless and bad practice, and the going to the doctor bit isn't what's stupid here. Apply that to the flu and you still get 10K-50K deaths a year. Just because you don't need a doctor doesn't mean you should be sitting at your open-office floor plan desk, or stocking shelves at a grocery store. Thousands go to work and end up fine, but how many other people get exposed because of that behavior? I'd prefer not to get the flu or Corona simply because Tracy wanted to tough it out at work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 06:38:44 AM

A lot of people can't take off work. It's that simple. Often it's not about personal pride, it's about not losing your job or missing a day of pay. I get that you hate Trump but he's really not THAT wrong, although his delivery is pretty... well, it makes me sigh and roll my eyes.

People are exposed to a countless number of things on a daily basis, the minute you step outside your house you take an immeasurable number of risks. Common sense, as long as you're not traveling to a highly infected area or have a compromised immune system or are elderly, and you'll be fine. This is not the Black Death.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 05, 2020, 06:45:31 AM

I can't believe that you guys don't get paid if you stay home sick. That is completely bonkers! You are putting everyone around you at risk by going to the office while sick and you are probably worsening your situation given that you should be resting and letting your body heal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 06:48:47 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 05, 2020, 06:45:31 AM

I can't believe that you guys don't get paid if you stay home sick. That is completely bonkers! You are putting everyone around you at risk by going to the office while sick and you are probably worsening your situation given that you should be resting and letting your body heal.

Well, a lot of people do get sick pay. Not everybody though. I do which I'm thankful for but I almost never take sick days because of the nature of my job. I can count on one hand the number of times I've taken a sick day, and I've only ever been sent home for being sick once and that was over 10 years ago. Some jobs you can't just up and leave it for the next day particularly if there aren't many people to begin with and it's work that simply has to be done. (Obviously if you're clearly very sick, you're gonna go home. But I've worked through very bad colds even when I felt like a bag of hot garbage.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:01:22 AM

I gotta give Trump credit. He can randomly disagree with the World Health Organization on a statistic, based on a hunch, but people will be very quick to defend the unrelated stuff he said after it and not find that one part at all relevant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 07:08:40 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:01:22 AM

I gotta give Trump credit. He can randomly disagree with the World Health Organization on a statistic, based on a hunch, but people will be very quick to defend the unrelated stuff he said after it and not find that one part at all relevant.

That is not what my post was about.

"because a lot of people will have this and it’s very mild. They’ll get better very rapidly. They don’t even see a doctor. They don’t even call a doctor. You never hear about those people." ... "people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work. Some of them go to work, but they get better."

Those are not outrageous or entirely false statements, there's a lot of truth to it. I have never gone to the doctor when I have the flu; if I get coronavirus, I still won't go unless something is really out of the ordinary. Lots of people refuse to go see a doctor simply because of the bill you get for walking in the door. This isn't farfetched. A bit inaccurate and blunt, yeah sure, but not entirely wrong.

Everyone knows Trump is a cotton-headed ninny-muggins so why even bother getting upset at him trying to talk about a medical situation? Trump said something you think is stupid? Must be a day that ends in Y. I think he's dumb, too. But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:12:28 AM

Oh I agree with you, which is my point.

The outrageous part of his statement was ignored and brushed off and we all focused on the less insane part. He has a pretty strong control of the narrative that way. Do most people get better? Of course. Can the president of the United States, off the cuff, shrug off the death toll as reported by WHO based on a hunch? No! But we're ignoring that part and focusing exclusively on the mild obvious stuff he said.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 07:15:36 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:12:28 AM

Oh I agree with you, which is my point.

The outrageous part of his statement was ignored and brushed off and we all focused on the less insane part. He has a pretty strong control of the narrative that way. Do most people get better? Of course. Can the president of the United States, off the cuff, shrug off the death toll as reported by WHO based on a hunch? No! But we're ignoring that part and focusing exclusively on the mild obvious stuff he said.

Well, see the third part I just added to my post. Trump clearly isn't controlling the narrative for us, and in my personal opinion, if you let any one person control the narrative, you aren't doing a good enough job of obtaining information. Just my belief.

Shrugging off the death toll, that isn't what we were talking about, but it's bad. But Trump does a hundred bad things on a daily basis; does that even register on the scale anymore when there are probably ten thousand other heinous things he's said or done or ignored? Just this week he had to be corrected from a health official on when the vaccine would be available for this coronavirus. Do we really have to give ourselves gray hairs over every. little. thing this moron says?

I only responded because of the initial hullabaloo over his comments on people getting sick and not going to the doctor which I find silly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:18:56 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:15:36 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:12:28 AM

Oh I agree with you, which is my point.

The outrageous part of his statement was ignored and brushed off and we all focused on the less insane part. He has a pretty strong control of the narrative that way. Do most people get better? Of course. Can the president of the United States, off the cuff, shrug off the death toll as reported by WHO based on a hunch? No! But we're ignoring that part and focusing exclusively on the mild obvious stuff he said.

Well, see the third part I just added to my post. Trump clearly isn't controlling the narrative for us, and in my personal opinion, if you let any one person control the narrative, you aren't doing a good enough job of obtaining information. Just my belief.

Shrugging off the death toll, that isn't what we were talking about, but it's bad. But Trump does a hundred bad things on a daily basis; does that even register on the scale anymore when there are probably ten thousand other heinous things he's said or done or ignored? Just this week he had to be corrected from a health official on when the vaccine would be available for this coronavirus. Do we really have to give ourselves gray hairs over every. little. thing this moron says?

Exactly! That's how he controls it though. It's not just accepted. Here's the equation as I see it.

1) Say something horribly misleading and dangerous coupled with some very reasonable but unrelated stuff.
2) People will lump the two together as horrible based on the first horrible thing, thus making the unrelated stuff seem horrible when it's not.
3) People will jump to defend the reasonable stuff and ignore the horrible stuff. Allowing it to slide.
4) Once it slides, it's again lumped in with the reasonable stuff as either legit or potentially legit. And now he has people who are more invested in defending him than noticing his wrongness because he made sure people are attacking reasonable statements as well.

Pretty brilliant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 07:20:21 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:18:56 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:15:36 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:12:28 AM

Oh I agree with you, which is my point.

The outrageous part of his statement was ignored and brushed off and we all focused on the less insane part. He has a pretty strong control of the narrative that way. Do most people get better? Of course. Can the president of the United States, off the cuff, shrug off the death toll as reported by WHO based on a hunch? No! But we're ignoring that part and focusing exclusively on the mild obvious stuff he said.

Well, see the third part I just added to my post. Trump clearly isn't controlling the narrative for us, and in my personal opinion, if you let any one person control the narrative, you aren't doing a good enough job of obtaining information. Just my belief.

Shrugging off the death toll, that isn't what we were talking about, but it's bad. But Trump does a hundred bad things on a daily basis; does that even register on the scale anymore when there are probably ten thousand other heinous things he's said or done or ignored? Just this week he had to be corrected from a health official on when the vaccine would be available for this coronavirus. Do we really have to give ourselves gray hairs over every. little. thing this moron says?

Exactly! That's how he controls it though. It's not just accepted. Here's the equation as I see it.

1) Say something horribly misleading and dangerous coupled with some very reasonable but unrelated stuff.
2) People will lump the two together as horrible based on the first horrible thing, thus making the unrelated stuff seem horrible when it's not.
3) People will jump to defend the reasonable stuff and ignore the horrible stuff. Allowing it to slide.
4) Once it slides, it's again lumped in with the reasonable stuff as either legit or potentially legit. And now he has people who are more invested in defending him than noticing his wrongness because he made sure people are attacking reasonable statements as well.

Pretty brilliant.

Adami, Adami. Wouldn't life be so much simpler if you just stopped being smart?

:) :)

EDIT: Seriously, though. I'm not 'more invested in' defending him than noticing his wrongness. There are a few people on this site who can attest that I rant about his idiocy on a daily basis (and to be fair, it's not on this site so you wouldn't see or know about it - it ain't your fault). But I'm also not interested in being disingenuous by acting like he never, ever, ever says something that has some truth to it. Again, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I can admit when he says something I agree with. In this case, he says something that from my own experiences in life is very true.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:23:16 AM

Being smart is definitely not a good idea. I've talked to some people and it seems extremely high levels of intelligence is linked to anxiety. We currently have around 18-19% of the population suffering from anxiety every year. Those people are five to six times more likely to see a doctor than non anxious people, driving medical costs way up, which of course affects your insurance premiums as well. Anxiety has been linked with higher rates of suicide too! Anxiety is a serious problem and people are suffering!

See what I just did there?


Anyway, this isn't the thread for that, so I'll stop.

On topic though, this might not be a super deadly virus for us healthy folk, but it sure is messing up the world economy in many ways. Should be interesting to see the eventual fallout of this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 07:27:55 AM

Agreed, I was just thinking this is going down a P/R path pretty quickly :)

I also agree this is bad for the global economy. Regardless of what we think individually this is bad almost all around (hey, the pollution over China has broken for now, so.. yay?).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 05, 2020, 07:28:13 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:08:40 AM

I have never gone to the doctor when I have the flu

Then how do you know you had the flu?

And, more importantly, why not?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 05, 2020, 07:31:57 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:20:21 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:18:56 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:15:36 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:12:28 AM

Oh I agree with you, which is my point.

The outrageous part of his statement was ignored and brushed off and we all focused on the less insane part. He has a pretty strong control of the narrative that way. Do most people get better? Of course. Can the president of the United States, off the cuff, shrug off the death toll as reported by WHO based on a hunch? No! But we're ignoring that part and focusing exclusively on the mild obvious stuff he said.

Well, see the third part I just added to my post. Trump clearly isn't controlling the narrative for us, and in my personal opinion, if you let any one person control the narrative, you aren't doing a good enough job of obtaining information. Just my belief.

Shrugging off the death toll, that isn't what we were talking about, but it's bad. But Trump does a hundred bad things on a daily basis; does that even register on the scale anymore when there are probably ten thousand other heinous things he's said or done or ignored? Just this week he had to be corrected from a health official on when the vaccine would be available for this coronavirus. Do we really have to give ourselves gray hairs over every. little. thing this moron says?

Exactly! That's how he controls it though. It's not just accepted. Here's the equation as I see it.

1) Say something horribly misleading and dangerous coupled with some very reasonable but unrelated stuff.
2) People will lump the two together as horrible based on the first horrible thing, thus making the unrelated stuff seem horrible when it's not.
3) People will jump to defend the reasonable stuff and ignore the horrible stuff. Allowing it to slide.
4) Once it slides, it's again lumped in with the reasonable stuff as either legit or potentially legit. And now he has people who are more invested in defending him than noticing his wrongness because he made sure people are attacking reasonable statements as well.

Pretty brilliant.

Adami, Adami. Wouldn't life be so much simpler if you just stopped being smart?

:) :)

EDIT: Seriously, though. I'm not 'more invested in' defending him than noticing his wrongness. There are a few people on this site who can attest that I rant about his idiocy on a daily basis (and to be fair, it's not on this site so you wouldn't see or know about it - it ain't your fault). But I'm also not interested in being disingenuous by acting like he never, ever, ever says something that has some truth to it. Again, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I can admit when he says something I agree with. In this case, he says something that from my own experiences in life is very true.

I think I can safely say that Kattelox wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire.   

Probably going to start another thread in the P/R section on this...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 07:38:22 AM

Stadler with that good timing. :hifive:

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 05, 2020, 07:28:13 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:08:40 AM

I have never gone to the doctor when I have the flu

Then how do you know you had the flu?

And, more importantly, why not?

No disrespect, my man, but I am pretty sure I can differentiate the flu from the common cold. Maybe I went when I was a very little kid but I have no memory of going to the doctor for any illness other than the time I nearly caught pneumonia. Last year I had the flu, it was instantly recognizable as the flu and not a cold by the symptoms.

My chief reason for not going to a doctor over the flu or cold is partially because I am young and have a healthy immune system and have no health conditions to worry about, however, my primary reason is because going to the doctor is an immediate bill that I'd rather not pay if I can just guzzle NyQuil and stay in bed for a while. Usually I only get sick once a year max, and it's not more than the common cold. I work in an environment where I'm always around water, dirt, mud, all kinds of grimey shit. Maybe if I was some white glove wearing waiter at a five star restaurant I'd be a bit more worried, but I like to get dirty at work :) :)

And for the doctor bill: I do have health care, through my boss. My boss is my father. I work at a very small business. I don't want to pass the cost on to him in any way if it's something I can tough out. And no, that's not a toxic masculinity thing, it's just... easier? I don't like dealing with people, give me the couch and solitary confinement please

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 05, 2020, 07:41:00 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 05, 2020, 07:28:13 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:08:40 AM

I have never gone to the doctor when I have the flu

Then how do you know you had the flu?

And, more importantly, why not?

I've never gone to the doctor over the flu either.  The only time I go when I'm sick is if I have a severe sore throat to check for strep.  Medical costs are just too expensive.  So if I were to get the cornonavirus I probably wouldn't go unless I was having a difficult time breathing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:43:35 AM

The costs are a good point.

I have insurance, but even just getting a routine STD check ended up costing me almost 250 dollars AFTER insurance. For many of us, the hundreds of dollars it may cost for non-critical things is just too much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 05, 2020, 07:47:45 AM

I have free healthcare. Just a suggestion, it's something that exists. You might want to ask your governments to try it sometime.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 07:49:50 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 05, 2020, 07:47:45 AM

I have free healthcare. Just a suggestion, it's something that exists. You might want to ask your governments to try it sometime.

Much like flying without wings, it is nice to dream about. C'est la vie. If I ever get a real bad sickness I should probably just eat a bullet to save money. The lead would be cheaper than the medicine

Anyway your country is a whole other animal. Italy, right? Can I come home to the mother land, MirrorMask? I have lots of questions for Luca Turilli

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 05, 2020, 07:50:18 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 05, 2020, 07:47:45 AM

I have free healthcare. Just a suggestion, it's something that exists. You might want to ask your governments to try it sometime.

It does not exist. NOTHING is free.  You're just not the one paying for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2020, 07:51:11 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 05, 2020, 06:45:31 AM

I can't believe that you guys don't get paid if you stay home sick. That is completely bonkers! You are putting everyone around you at risk by going to the office while sick and you are probably worsening your situation given that you should be resting and letting your body heal.

Quick Google search shows that 80% of restaurant workers don't have sick pay in America.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 07:54:36 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 05, 2020, 07:41:00 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 05, 2020, 07:28:13 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:08:40 AM

I have never gone to the doctor when I have the flu

Then how do you know you had the flu?

And, more importantly, why not?

I've never gone to the doctor over the flu either.  The only time I go when I'm sick is if I have a severe sore throat to check for strep.  Medical costs are just too expensive.  So if I were to get the cornonavirus I probably wouldn't go unless I was having a difficult time breathing.

I haven't gone for a flu or flu like symptons since I was a child.  I assume I have a flu if it's bad cold symptons plus a fever.  The fever and longevity of it usually is what gives me the feeling like I have a flu although it's possible in the past, I caught something else.  Being there hasn't been an instance where it was too extensive or I felt near death, I never felt a reason to leave my house and pay money to have a doctor confirm what I already know.  I do have a thermometer to test myself for a fever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2020, 07:55:17 AM

And most doctors will even tell you you don't need to come in for things like that.  It just isn't necessary.

Going back to this for a second:

Quote from: Adami on March 05, 2020, 07:01:22 AM

I gotta give Trump credit. He can randomly disagree with the World Health Organization on a statistic, based on a hunch, but people will be very quick to defend the unrelated stuff he said after it and not find that one part at all relevant.

Taking Trump out of the equation for a second and just focusing on the statement itself:  What he said isn't really unreasonable.  Yes, the numbers are what they are.  And, unless I misunderstand, he is not disagreeing with the numbers.  What he is saying is that the death rate may appear inflated because, while the number of deaths is accurate since all deaths are reported, the number of cases is likely vastly under-reported, thus skewing the percentage upward.  And keep in mind that, relative to the populations of the countries in question, the sample size thus far is VERY small, so it does not take much to skew the percentage.  I've heard doctors and pundits say the very same thing (albeit more articulately than Trump).  So I don't think what he is saying is "outrageous" at all. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 05, 2020, 07:58:16 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:49:50 AM

Anyway your country is a whole other animal. Italy, right? Can I come home to the mother land, MirrorMask? I have lots of questions for Luca Turilli

The sheer coincidence, I just saw a FB post reminding that today it's his birthday  ;D you're welcome anytime you want, we need all the boost we can get from tourists, you might even consider booking a 5 stars hotel in Venice that is offering huge discounts. And Turilli doesn't live in the red zones so you can go and visit him  :D

Quote from: Stadler on March 05, 2020, 07:50:18 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 05, 2020, 07:47:45 AM

I have free healthcare. Just a suggestion, it's something that exists. You might want to ask your governments to try it sometime.

It does not exist. NOTHING is free.  You're just not the one paying for it.

Well, you make it sound like it's a bad thing  :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 05, 2020, 08:06:39 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:49:50 AM

Italy, right? Can I come home to the mother land, MirrorMask?

Do you want to come with us this summer?  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 08:08:43 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 05, 2020, 08:06:39 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 07:49:50 AM

Italy, right? Can I come home to the mother land, MirrorMask?

Do you want to come with us this summer?  ;D

Only if we can joke with your wife that I'm your long lost first son.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2020, 08:09:57 AM

^Just the thought of doing something similar makes me really want you to come to California and stay at my house.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 08:17:26 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 05, 2020, 08:09:57 AM

^Just the thought of doing something similar makes me really want you to come to California and stay at my house.  :lol

"Hi, Mrs. Bosk, I'm actually Mr. Bosk's "first" son. We've been "in contact" for a few years now. Sometimes we "have disagreements," sometimes I "lose my temper," I'm not always "as respectful as I should be." Sometimes I am put "on notice.""

(https://i.imgur.com/OvCTn5p.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DarkChestOfWonders on March 05, 2020, 08:20:08 AM

:| You can both go to your rooms immediately. :evilmonkey:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 05, 2020, 09:58:40 AM

Someone mentions Trump and this thread instantly turns into P/R  :lol

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2020, 07:51:11 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 05, 2020, 06:45:31 AM

I can't believe that you guys don't get paid if you stay home sick. That is completely bonkers! You are putting everyone around you at risk by going to the office while sick and you are probably worsening your situation given that you should be resting and letting your body heal.

Quick Google search shows that 80% of restaurant workers don't have sick pay in America.

Well RJ, you know what they say, it's never to let to change to a different career...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 05, 2020, 10:06:00 AM

28 new cases in Stockholm today bringing the total up to 59 for my hometown.
Total in Sweden is now up to 90.

My collegue who was in nothern Italy is from today working from home. Neither she nor her family have shown any symptoms yet so it's just a precaution.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2020, 10:30:47 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 05, 2020, 09:58:40 AM

Someone mentions Trump and this thread instantly turns into P/R  :lol

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2020, 07:51:11 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 05, 2020, 06:45:31 AM

I can't believe that you guys don't get paid if you stay home sick. That is completely bonkers! You are putting everyone around you at risk by going to the office while sick and you are probably worsening your situation given that you should be resting and letting your body heal.

Quick Google search shows that 80% of restaurant workers don't have sick pay in America.

Well RJ, you know what they say, it's never to let to change to a different career...

Fortunately I'm not part of that 80%,but I already burned all mine from my recent surgery.



Anyway, 17 major SF tech companies, including the one I cook in, have told all their employees to stay home. It's a fucking graveyard here, and we got a good 1k# of product prepped. If anyone is hungry, be down here on 2nd and king at 22am

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 10:43:52 AM

My boss is saying we should hear an official announcement of non office essential employees to work from home to not risk public transportation in NYC.  I drive and don't work in the office so that doesn't include me, but I will look forward to less traffic if others aren't commuting. 

As of today, my coworker is out sick, my boss is working from home and the head of our department has cold symptoms so is also working from home.  Our major network upgrade was cancelled last night due to people being out sick.  It's eerily quiet in all the work chat rooms. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 05, 2020, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 10:43:52 AM

My boss is saying we should hear an official announcement of non office essential employees to work from home to not risk public transportation in NYC.  I drive and don't work in the office so that doesn't include me, but I will look forward to less traffic if others aren't commuting. 

As of today, my coworker is out sick, my boss is working from home and the head of our department has cold symptoms so is also working from home.  Our major network upgrade was cancelled last night due to people being out sick.  It's eerily quiet in all the work chat rooms.

My company sent out an email this morning advising everyone to take their PC home this weekend and test remote capabilities. I would be elated if we got an email saying "For the next two weeks, all non-essential employees are required to wfh".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 05, 2020, 11:19:29 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 05, 2020, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 10:43:52 AM

My boss is saying we should hear an official announcement of non office essential employees to work from home to not risk public transportation in NYC.  I drive and don't work in the office so that doesn't include me, but I will look forward to less traffic if others aren't commuting. 

As of today, my coworker is out sick, my boss is working from home and the head of our department has cold symptoms so is also working from home.  Our major network upgrade was cancelled last night due to people being out sick.  It's eerily quiet in all the work chat rooms.

My company sent out an email this morning advising everyone to take their PC home this weekend and test remote capabilities. I would be elated if we got an email saying "For the next two weeks, all non-essential employees are required to wfh".

I would love that as well. I could get away with only coming in to the office for a couple hours once or twice a week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 05, 2020, 11:29:50 AM

I really don't ever need to be in the office.  If it wasn't a requirement for me to show up once a week I would never go in and I would also move out into the country. (not because of the virus, just because I would want to)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 05, 2020, 11:37:39 AM

My main customer that I support - a multi $B IT service company - has suspended all non-revenue generating international travel until April.  Annual conferences from IT vendors are being cancelled - Adobe and Salesforce just cancelled some major events; talk of SAP cancelling their premier event in May.

My company just expanded the total ban on travel to certain hot zones (China, Japan, Iran, Italy and several others).  I'm not exactly worried about myself - I work from home 95% of the time (but ironically, did go in to Toronto yesterday).  It's my kids and being at school who are the ones in populated and potential areas of contamination.

Yeah, the precautionary measures aren't going to slow down anytime soon methinks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on March 05, 2020, 12:13:30 PM

I live near Nashville, TN and Williamson County, where the beautiful, rich folks live have the first confirmed case in Tennessee.  We panic over a few snow flakes, so I wonder what panic this first confirmed case will cause.

By the way, not virus related, but tornado deaths related.  I hate it when the news  calls the recent tornado, the Nashville tornado, when 16 of the confirmed 25 deaths were in Putnam County about 60 miles east of Nashville.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 05, 2020, 01:13:39 PM

Gotta love the virus.

My beloved Government has just closed theaters for a whole focking month.

It's more or less a 100k revenue loss for my company, but - fock it - I'm on vacation and have plenty of time to post on DTF!



Gotta love the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 05, 2020, 02:20:12 PM

Alex!

:panicattack:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2020, 02:21:24 PM

:panicattack: :panicattack: :panicattack: :panicattack: :panicattack:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 02:23:25 PM

He lives!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:38:03 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

Good thing I ordered some from Amazon last week (since I was out, not out of panic) but yea, this seems to be a thing here in the states from what I hear from others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on March 05, 2020, 02:41:14 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:38:03 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

Good thing I ordered some from Amazon last week (since I was out, not out of panic) but yea, this seems to be a thing here in the states from what I hear from others.

Gotta have a clean a$$ while you're in-line for your Dr. appointment... :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 02:46:06 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:38:03 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

Good thing I ordered some from Amazon last week (since I was out, not out of panic) but yea, this seems to be a thing here in the states from what I hear from others.

Oh man so you're one of those people! We had a UPS driver for years who sadly just had his route changed but he bitched so hard about people who order toilet paper online  :lol :lol Just thought that was funny.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 05, 2020, 02:46:40 PM

Well, I guess that's what happens when something like this scares the shit outta people and then the stock market takes a gigantic fucking dump on all of us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 05, 2020, 02:54:34 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

For me is Hand sanitizer. I had to buy for work and wipes and everything is on backorder until March 23. Luckily I usually keep enough supplies around so I’m not completely out yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:57:58 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 02:46:06 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:38:03 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

Good thing I ordered some from Amazon last week (since I was out, not out of panic) but yea, this seems to be a thing here in the states from what I hear from others.

Oh man so you're one of those people! We had a UPS driver for years who sadly just had his route changed but he bitched so hard about people who order toilet paper online  :lol :lol Just thought that was funny.

 :lol I've become one.  Amazon prime has lead to me not doing basic home need shopping at stores anymore.  I placed a prime pantry order last week that was so random, but all little things I needed around the house. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 03:00:18 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:57:58 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 02:46:06 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:38:03 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

Good thing I ordered some from Amazon last week (since I was out, not out of panic) but yea, this seems to be a thing here in the states from what I hear from others.

Oh man so you're one of those people! We had a UPS driver for years who sadly just had his route changed but he bitched so hard about people who order toilet paper online  :lol :lol Just thought that was funny.

 :lol I've become one.  Amazon prime has lead to me not doing basic home need shopping at stores anymore.  I placed a prime pantry order last week that was so random, but all little things I needed around the house.

This is just another notch in the 'different worlds' of city vs. rural life! Right now I'm sitting at my desk that's a 2 minute drive from my apartment, and a giant grocery store is a 30 second drive down the road. I can't imagine buying food on amazon! I can literally go pick up a couple groceries when I get off and be back at home in my pajamas by 5:15-20. That's wild.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 03:07:06 PM

Oh I don't buy food off amazon, just household items.  That order was toilet paper, toothpaste, ziplock bags, lighters... random stuff that I will go through over time.  My grocery store is pretty close, but I'm lazy and try to only go once a week so last week was like Tuesday when I realized I needed some of this stuff and I wasn't planning on making a grocery run yet (and still haven't actually).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2020, 03:10:16 PM

I'd love to live in a more rural area.  But I don't know that it's in the cards.  We used to live in the S.F. Bay Area, which is basically a triangle of 3 cities (San Francisco, San Jose, and Oakland), separated by a now-continuous VERY concentrated suburban sprawl.  We got away from that to move to Sacramento, which is a much smaller city, surrounded by less dense suburban sprawl, and some rural areas.  Then we moved a bit farther east (but within commute distance of Sac) to the base of the Sierra foothills, which is a mix of suburban and rural.  Our initial thought was to move into one of the close-by rural areas when the kids (or at least two of them) are out of the house.  But we'll see.  That won't be for a good 6-10 years.  By the time our daughter is out of the house, the boys may likely have families or be not too far from that.  And if the kids relocate, we might eventually do the same to be near them.  We'll see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 03:16:47 PM

Do you like corn? Let me tell you about corn...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2020, 03:24:00 PM

:lol  I saw what happened to that family in Logan.  I don't want to live by no corn.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 03:26:04 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 05, 2020, 03:24:00 PM

:lol  I saw what happened to that family in Logan.  I don't want to live by no corn.

Hey... it's not so bad. It's peaceful. Lots of land.. to look over and gaze at the flat horizon  :lol :lol

I live on the edge of my town but not on the *outer* edge so I don't see the corn. My back porch faces a nice little dog park though :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 05, 2020, 03:27:44 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 03:00:18 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:57:58 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 05, 2020, 02:46:06 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2020, 02:38:03 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 05, 2020, 02:35:54 PM

Is it everywhere in the world where people are stockpiling toilet paper and you can't buy it in the shops because suppliers can't keep up with demand or just over here?  WTF is wrong with people?!

Good thing I ordered some from Amazon last week (since I was out, not out of panic) but yea, this seems to be a thing here in the states from what I hear from others.

Oh man so you're one of those people! We had a UPS driver for years who sadly just had his route changed but he bitched so hard about people who order toilet paper online  :lol :lol Just thought that was funny.

 :lol I've become one.  Amazon prime has lead to me not doing basic home need shopping at stores anymore.  I placed a prime pantry order last week that was so random, but all little things I needed around the house.

This is just another notch in the 'different worlds' of city vs. rural life! Right now I'm sitting at my desk that's a 2 minute drive from my apartment, and a giant grocery store is a 30 second drive down the road. I can't imagine buying food on amazon! I can literally go pick up a couple groceries when I get off and be back at home in my pajamas by 5:15-20. That's wild.

Amazon and Costco get 95% of my business these days. Just the other day I ordered, deodorant, hair gel, toothpaste, hangers, oven cleaner, a new cutting board, pecan chunks, and garbage bags in a single Amazon order.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2020, 03:29:20 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 05, 2020, 03:27:44 PM

Amazon and Costco get 95% of my business these days. Just the other day I ordered, deodorant, hair gel, toothpaste, hangers, oven cleaner, a new cutting board, pecan chunks, and garbage bags in a single Amazon order.

*screams in local business*

Well, actually, I guess I can't think of a mom & pop store that... makes garbage bags. So you're good I guess  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 05, 2020, 03:35:40 PM

Looks like 41 dead in Italy today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 05, 2020, 10:49:56 PM

You know it's desperate times when people are flocking to Korn merch :lol


The company I work for (a major US bank) has canceled all currently scheduled international travel, and future international travel can only be booked with the approval of the CEO or someone on his executive team. There's also talk of staggering remote workdays so that only half the people are in the office on any given day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 06, 2020, 03:49:58 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Yikes, wtf? "Stupid dumbass sheep" because people are buying masks to help minimize the spread of illness? Do you make fun of people who wash their hands too? There's some heavy misanthropy going on with you, man.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:51:32 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 06, 2020, 03:49:58 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Yikes, wtf? "Stupid dumbass sheep" because people are buying masks to help minimize the spread of illness? Do you make fun of people who wash their hands too?

I sure make fun of people who hoard cases of hand sanitizer in their house, yes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 06, 2020, 03:52:46 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:51:32 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 06, 2020, 03:49:58 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Yikes, wtf? "Stupid dumbass sheep" because people are buying masks to help minimize the spread of illness? Do you make fun of people who wash their hands too?

I sure make fun of people who hoard cases of hand sanitizer in their house, yes.

The article mentions nothing of the sort and that wasn't what you specified in the post I was responding to. Hoarders are another thing entirely.

EDIT: Hah, it says they're not even real masks! WTF! Okay, if they're not REAL masks, then they're dumb as hell for buying them, if they think they're real. Nevermind. This whole thing is stupid indeed. And I'm stupid for not noticing that before calling you out. Round of beers on me, Kade! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:56:28 PM

That's what I'm saying, it's just merch and it's sold out.  Fucking genius on their part.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 06, 2020, 03:56:54 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Gene Simmons is pissed he didn't think of it first.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:59:53 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 06, 2020, 03:56:54 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Gene Simmons is pissed he didn't think of it first.

Makes him look like a bit of a rookie to be honest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 06, 2020, 04:09:00 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 06, 2020, 03:56:54 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Gene Simmons is pissed he didn't think of it first.

It's never too late at this point.  I can see KISS do the masks and sell them.  Heck, why stop at putting the KISS logo on the mask.  Might as well put the images of their facepaint on the masks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 06, 2020, 06:10:51 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 06, 2020, 03:56:54 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 06, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 05, 2020, 04:15:04 PM

Jebus, all of this panic has gotten Korn to sell masks as merch and it's already sold out.

https://loudwire.com/korn-surgical-masks-coronavirus-sold-out/

I comend them for exploiting and making money off the stupid dumbass sheep we call the human race in this day and age.  Brilliant marketing.

Gene Simmons is pissed he didn't think of it first.

 :lol

and let's be real, the typical masks aren't going to work regardless (unless you have the disease and don't want to spread it, then yes, wear the mask).  However, I did read this https://www.yahoo.com/news/rich-preparing-coronavirus-differently-130449059.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/rich-preparing-coronavirus-differently-130449059.html)

Quote

“En route to Paris,” Gwyneth Paltrow wrote on Instagram last week, beneath a shot of herself on an airplane heading to Paris Fashion Week and wearing a black face mask. “I’ve already been in this movie,” she added, referring to her role in the 2011 disease thriller “Contagion.” “Stay safe.”

Paltrow did not pose with just any mask, unlike, say, Kate Hudson and Bella Hadid, who also recently posted selfies wearing cheaper, disposable masks. The Goop founder and influencer of influencers instead opted for a sleek “urban air mask” by a Swedish company, Airinum, which features five layers of filtration and an “ultrasmooth and skin-friendly finish.”

Never mind that the surgeon general, Jerome Adams, begged people to refrain from indulging in mask mania on Twitter last weekend. Priced from $69 to $99, the Airinum mask, which has been popping up on Instagram stylistas, is sold out on its website until April. (The New York Museum of Modern Art’s Design Store, which carried the mask, is also sold out.)

 :facepalm:  so yea to go back to the sheep...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 06, 2020, 06:49:20 PM

I dunno about you guys, but I’m not leaving the house without a full on NASA space suit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: max_security on March 06, 2020, 07:37:25 PM

I'm not sure that I'm afraid of this one. I do not get sick very often but about 10 years ago I caught a bug that had me praying for death. I'm not hearing that about this thing. No events were cancelled when I was puking my freaking guts out and sweating through my clothes in a 60 degree room. This sounds no worse than a common cold .

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 06, 2020, 08:29:29 PM

Its hit my state now, so we'll see how things go from here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 06, 2020, 08:52:09 PM

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/03/07/nation/11-norwood-officials-self-quarantine-after-contact-with-resident-who-tested-positive-coronavirus/

I work at the major grocery store chain in this town.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 07, 2020, 01:46:14 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 06, 2020, 06:49:20 PM

I dunno about you guys, but I’m not leaving the house without a full on NASA space suit.

Here I was thinking a Hazmat suit was enough, I might reconsider now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 07, 2020, 06:06:34 AM

First case confirmed in my home state of Connecticut. The man who has it lives in NY but works in two CT hospitals. Noice. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 07, 2020, 08:34:36 AM

Man this thread has blown up, much like the Coronavirus on the news. I will say selfishly my trading account has grown a ton thanks to this virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 07, 2020, 03:40:00 PM

So.... Lombardy (the region of Milan and where there's one of the two major italian hotspot) is basically being shut down, the "red zones" (selected cities where nobody can actually enter or leave) will be extended and more generally nobody will be allowed in or out of Lombardy, with social activities and going out being more and more strongly, strongly, STRONGLY advised.

This has to serve as a learning experience for everyone else in the world, especially the USA where there are so many people and where there isn't free healtchare. These things are like war, car accidents, unwanted pregnancies, cancer.... "it won't happen to me". It can and it will. If there are some cases starting to pop out in your zone, please, stop going out. There's so much music to listen to and so many movies to see, just give up going around. Of course first and foremost wash your hands all the time and stop standing near to people whenever possible, but if your region starts to get infected, even if the law doesn't require it do yourself a favor and renounce for a while to go out. It's a domino effect, as long all the pieces stand next to each other, the previous one will bring down the next. Remove yourself from the domino chain. Wash often your hands, don't be near to people, renounce trips.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 07, 2020, 04:11:56 PM

If my job let me work from home for 2+ weeks or whatever is needed, I would gladly do it. Besides the work obligation, I am just staying at home as much as possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 07, 2020, 07:06:42 PM

Well, I just found out today that there is a person infected in the county next door from me.  He traveled over seas and has been home for a week before he got sick.  So I'm sure he spread it all over the place.

I have people who work in my office who live in that county.  Now I'm just waiting for my manager to tell all of us to mandatory telework.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on March 07, 2020, 07:52:06 PM

Well other than work, I don't go anywhere anyway so I should be safe.

We ordered Chinese food today at work so if you don't see Herrick posting anymore, you will know why.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 07, 2020, 08:25:11 PM

mmm eggrolls

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 07, 2020, 08:33:51 PM

First case reported in St. Louis. 20 year old girl returning from Italy....went to the hospital with symptoms and she’s tested positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 07, 2020, 09:19:47 PM

Quote

There are currently 103 total cases of Coronavirus in Washington state, and of those cases, 16 people have died. Fifteen people died in King County, and one person in Snohomish County.

A team of medical professionals arrived at the Life Care Center of Kirkland on Saturday to help staff there contain the outbreak, which has now claimed the lives of more than a dozen residents.

Kirkland like 20 minutes from my house, and where I go to pick up the company van every day. We are wrapping up a job in Kirkland too. Fortunately we don't work with or around other people, other than ourselves. Except when I have to pick up materials.

All extracurricular activities at our school district are cancelled till April 13, including sports, dances, and field trips. I have actually been pleased with the district's response to this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 08, 2020, 06:46:55 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 07, 2020, 09:19:47 PM

Quote

There are currently 103 total cases of Coronavirus in Washington state, and of those cases, 16 people have died. Fifteen people died in King County, and one person in Snohomish County.

A team of medical professionals arrived at the Life Care Center of Kirkland on Saturday to help staff there contain the outbreak, which has now claimed the lives of more than a dozen residents.

Jesus, this is an extremely high mortality rate.

MirrorMask... all good advice, but until such time as 100% of people quarantine themselves for 14 days, it's unclear what is going to halt, or even slow, the spread of this.

@ Tim... you should probably reconsider your trip.  Seriously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 08, 2020, 07:25:42 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 08, 2020, 06:46:55 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 07, 2020, 09:19:47 PM

Quote

There are currently 103 total cases of Coronavirus in Washington state, and of those cases, 16 people have died. Fifteen people died in King County, and one person in Snohomish County.

A team of medical professionals arrived at the Life Care Center of Kirkland on Saturday to help staff there contain the outbreak, which has now claimed the lives of more than a dozen residents.

Jesus, this is an extremely high mortality rate.

MirrorMask... all good advice, but until such time as 100% of people quarantine themselves for 14 days, it's unclear what is going to halt, or even slow, the spread of this.

@ Tim... you should probably reconsider your trip.  Seriously.

Could it be that the number of infected are much higher than reported?
If it costs too much to get a test people who have mild symptoms would not get tested.

That would explain a  much higher mortality rate compared with countries where that is not an issue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 08, 2020, 07:42:49 AM

Out of ~150 people infected in Norway, 89 people have been to northern Italy. I blame this crappy snowless winter, if we had snow, no one would have gone all the way there for a ski holiday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 08, 2020, 08:29:47 AM

An attendee at a CPAC gathering attended by the current occupant and VP is infected    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/coronavirus-cpac.html   I love the line about 'well, neither were in contact with that individual'.  Right, but if A shakes hands with B, and then shakes your hand......

Personal note:  we cancelled our Mediterranean cruise.  Full credit by the airline and hotels for one year, only 50% cash back from Royal Caribbean (the next day it would have been down to 25%).  We're still writing, and confident, that they'll at least give us a full credit soon.

Oh, and i'm sure you've seen this one, for a much needed laugh   https://www.facebook.com/148388178863976/videos/248253546207962/UzpfSTEwMDAwNDM0MzUyOTEyMjoxNjYwMDYzODk0MTQ4Mzc5/

the shooter looks like my half brother....I better be more careful around him ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 08, 2020, 09:40:50 AM

23 confirmed cases in Finland so far, all of them are related to travels in epidemic areas. A school in Pirkanmaa province shuts down for at least a week because a lot of staff is in quarantine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 08, 2020, 10:36:57 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on March 08, 2020, 07:25:42 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 08, 2020, 06:46:55 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 07, 2020, 09:19:47 PM

Quote

There are currently 103 total cases of Coronavirus in Washington state, and of those cases, 16 people have died. Fifteen people died in King County, and one person in Snohomish County.

A team of medical professionals arrived at the Life Care Center of Kirkland on Saturday to help staff there contain the outbreak, which has now claimed the lives of more than a dozen residents.

Jesus, this is an extremely high mortality rate.

MirrorMask... all good advice, but until such time as 100% of people quarantine themselves for 14 days, it's unclear what is going to halt, or even slow, the spread of this.

@ Tim... you should probably reconsider your trip.  Seriously.

Could it be that the number of infected are much higher than reported?
If it costs too much to get a test people who have mild symptoms would not get tested.

That would explain a  much higher mortality rate compared with countries where that is not an issue.

The high mortality rate it that case is cause it's a senior home, they have the highest comorbitity rate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 08, 2020, 10:47:03 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 08, 2020, 10:36:57 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on March 08, 2020, 07:25:42 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 08, 2020, 06:46:55 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 07, 2020, 09:19:47 PM

Quote

There are currently 103 total cases of Coronavirus in Washington state, and of those cases, 16 people have died. Fifteen people died in King County, and one person in Snohomish County.

A team of medical professionals arrived at the Life Care Center of Kirkland on Saturday to help staff there contain the outbreak, which has now claimed the lives of more than a dozen residents.

Jesus, this is an extremely high mortality rate.

MirrorMask... all good advice, but until such time as 100% of people quarantine themselves for 14 days, it's unclear what is going to halt, or even slow, the spread of this.

@ Tim... you should probably reconsider your trip.  Seriously.

Could it be that the number of infected are much higher than reported?
If it costs too much to get a test people who have mild symptoms would not get tested.

That would explain a  much higher mortality rate compared with countries where that is not an issue.

The high mortality rate it that case is cause it's a senior home, they have the highest comorbitity rate.

Ah, that would make sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 08, 2020, 11:37:42 AM

I must say, I would not alter, nor am I altering, my life or travel habits any way because of this. But there is no chance in hell that I would ever set foot on a cruise ship for the next 5 years. Those things are floating petri dishes of filth, and once you are on one, if they don't want you to get off, you ain't getting off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 08, 2020, 12:07:02 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 08, 2020, 11:37:42 AM

I must say, I would not alter, nor am I altering, my life or travel habits any way because of this. But there is no chance in hell that I would ever set foot on a cruise ship for the next 5 years. Those things are floating petri dishes of filth, and once you are on one, if they don't want you to get off, you ain't getting off.

Never been on one, so I don't even know what I'm missing

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 08, 2020, 12:09:43 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 08, 2020, 11:37:42 AM

I must say, I would not alter, nor am I altering, my life or travel habits any way because of this. But there is no chance in hell that I would ever set foot on a cruise ship for the next 5 years. Those things are floating petri dishes of filth, and once you are on one, if they don't want you to get off, you ain't getting off.

Yea, one reason I've had little to no desire to go on cruises.  Now seeing how some cruises can't dock or have become their own quarantine (which seems to not work well) you get an idea how these things work in hard times.  Hard pass for me to get on a cruise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 08, 2020, 12:10:31 PM

I wonder if the people on the cruise ships get to watch free episodes of Avenue 5.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 09, 2020, 03:47:24 AM

(https://i.redd.it/1h9078273kl41.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 09, 2020, 05:13:48 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 08, 2020, 12:09:43 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 08, 2020, 11:37:42 AM

I must say, I would not alter, nor am I altering, my life or travel habits any way because of this. But there is no chance in hell that I would ever set foot on a cruise ship for the next 5 years. Those things are floating petri dishes of filth, and once you are on one, if they don't want you to get off, you ain't getting off.

Yea, one reason I've had little to no desire to go on cruises.  Now seeing how some cruises can't dock or have become their own quarantine (which seems to not work well) you get an idea how these things work in hard times.  Hard pass for me to get on a cruise.

 :lol

Y'all better never get on an airplane again. They are by far so much worse than a cruise ship. You're in a cramped, pressurized, confined space, with recycled air that barely get's wiped down between flights (I used to be on a plane cleaning crew in my 20's). Oh and hotels aren't any better than a cruise ship. Don't even get me started on restaurants...stay the fuck out of restaurants.

Or, just wash your hands and don't touch your face and enjoy your travels.

[edit] Mrs. P points out that y'all should stay away from sporting events too. Fifty-thousand people, cramped together screaming and whistling spittle all over each other?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 05:34:14 AM

In Italy sports events are downright cancelled, or held without public. So yes, when shit hits the fan, all sport events SHOULD be either cancelled or forbidden to the public.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2020, 05:38:42 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 05:34:14 AM

In Italy sports events are downright cancelled, or held without public. So yes, when shit hits the fan, all sport events SHOULD be either cancelled or forbidden to the public.

that was the case with some football matches in Germany yesterday. There is debate whether to extend that rule to any event with more than 1000 people attending (likely to be put into effect). The first German casualty was reported yesterday as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 05:43:51 AM

I think Italy should be a testing ground and a learning experience. There are many people who, upon learing of the restriction about to be imposed to Lombardy, boarded on trains to come back home in the south, like if Milan was about to be bombed by a war raid. This means they will potentially bring the disease south, to elder relatives and where, let's face it, the health system is not as perfect as it is in the north.

So my humble opinion is that nations moderately hit by the virus should learn what it happens when you don't control it and yes, they should act like if it's as serious as it is in Italy. Starting from sporting events where everyone travels everywhere else. Everyone should act like it's about to hit everyone.... because it will.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 09, 2020, 06:30:44 AM

As you all know, tango is the shit here in Argentina. My girlfriend used to dance regularly a couple of years ago and she know a lot of people in the scene. She was telling me that a big group, 120 people, traveled to the north of Italy before there was any travel restriction. Ten of the people from that group were diagnosed with the virus, one of them an 82 year old woman who is fighting for her life. Of the 120, about 30 of them came back to Argentina just last week. Instead of doing some self quarantine, they continued their normal life, going to Tango clubs every night. There is a great outcry in the tango community because most of the people that go to tango clubs are old people. None of this hasn't transpired into the news just yet.

I am baffled as to how this people seem to only care for themselves. How can you not realize you are putting a lot of people at risk? And it's not random people, it's people you see every single night, people you share something very unique with. The selfishness we have nurtured as a race disgusts me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 07:36:58 AM

It's the "it won't happen to me" mentality.

Outbreak in China, who cares, it's on the other side of the world.
Outbreak in Europe or the americas, who cares, it's not my nation.
Outbreak in the nation, who cares, I'm faraway.
Outbreak in the region, who cares, it's not my province.
Outbreak in the province, who cares, it's not my city.
Outbreak in the city, who cares, I'm on the other side of town.
Outbreak in the side of the town, who cares, it's not my neighbourhood.

Couple this with the "who cares, it's just a flu" and "only elder die from it".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on March 09, 2020, 07:57:47 AM

The worrisome thing to me is the impact on the economy and markets. My 401k has dropped $12k in less than a month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 09, 2020, 07:59:02 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 08, 2020, 11:37:42 AM

I must say, I would not alter, nor am I altering, my life or travel habits any way because of this. But there is no chance in hell that I would ever set foot on a cruise ship for the next 5 years. Those things are floating petri dishes of filth, and once you are on one, if they don't want you to get off, you ain't getting off.

I've never been on a cruise and have never had the desire to. They've always been a health trap.....flu's, stomach bugs....etc etc. Just never had any interest.

My in-laws are still planning on going on a Cruise through the Bahama's the first week of April  ???  My father in law is 66 years old with COPD, diabetes and is on multiple medications for various ailments. Just seems silly to me that they're even still considering it. The entire family is giving them grief over it but they insist that they're still going.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 09, 2020, 08:01:47 AM

33 confirmed cases now. All of them are still either travelers from epidemic areas or secondary infections from these people.

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 07:36:58 AM

Couple this with the "who cares, it's just a flu" and "only elder die from it".

This is actually a legitimate problem because officials haven't really explained why such severe measures have to be taken against this virus. It's a little more severe than the flu but not that much worse in the current state, possibly because it's a new strain that no one is resistant to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 09, 2020, 08:03:35 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 07, 2020, 08:33:51 PM

First case reported in St. Louis. 20 year old girl returning from Italy....went to the hospital with symptoms and she’s tested positive.

So....the Father of this girl decided to break quarantine and go to a Father.Daughter dance with his other daughter. This is infuriating and this is why diseases like this spread the way they do. Ladue.....the city where they live in St. Louis......goes to great lengths to remind everyone in the St. Louis area that they are ripe with wealthy, influential people of power. Basically...they're better than everyone else. Yet, this idiot disregards everyone else's well being and goes out and potentially infects who knows how many people.

Is there legal action that can be taken?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/09/us/coronavirus-missouri-isolation/index.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 08:05:34 AM

Quote from: Luoto on March 09, 2020, 08:01:47 AM

33 confirmed cases now. All of them are still either travelers from epidemic areas or secondary infections from these people.

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 07:36:58 AM

Couple this with the "who cares, it's just a flu" and "only elder die from it".

This is actually a legitimate problem because officials haven't really explained why such severe measures have to be taken against this virus. It's a little more severe than the flu but not that much worse in the current state.

Well, by now it should have been quite clear: it spreads fast and easily, there's no vaccine, it kills many elder and frail people and brings the sanitary system to a collapse if everybody is being hospitalized at the same time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 09, 2020, 08:06:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 09, 2020, 08:03:35 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 07, 2020, 08:33:51 PM

First case reported in St. Louis. 20 year old girl returning from Italy....went to the hospital with symptoms and she’s tested positive.

So....the Father of this girl decided to break quarantine and go to a Father.Daughter dance with his other daughter. This is infuriating and this is why diseases like this spread the way they do. Ladue.....the city where they live in St. Louis......goes to great lengths to remind everyone in the St. Louis area that they are ripe with wealthy, influential people of power. Basically...they're better than everyone else. Yet, this idiot disregards everyone else's well being and goes out and potentially infects who knows how many people.

Is there legal action that can be taken?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/09/us/coronavirus-missouri-isolation/index.html

HAH! I grew up in Frontenac and went to Ladue high school.

And...you're spot on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 09, 2020, 08:06:53 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on March 09, 2020, 07:57:47 AM

The worrisome thing to me is the impact on the economy and markets. My 401k has dropped $12k in less than a month.

Buckle your seatbelt today. S&P down 6% today as of right now. I'm on pace to lose more on my investments today than a will make in my salary over the next 2.5 months. Nice that I have enough invested to get big swings, but kind of scary. I'm definitely fighting the urge to join those who are selling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 08:10:43 AM

Can't worry about the market if you have no money to begin with!

:neverusethis:

 :millahhhh

 :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 09, 2020, 08:11:23 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 08:05:34 AM

Well, by now it should have been quite clear: it spreads fast and easily, there's no vaccine, it kills many elder and frail people and brings the sanitary system to a collapse if everybody is being hospitalized at the same time.

This is what I've understood as well but everyone clearly does not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 09, 2020, 08:40:43 AM

Impressions and revelations from the red zone (MirrorMask, a big hug. We're gonna make it):

We say we are globalised but we can't help thinking provincially: "We're safe here, it's the north!"
We have smart technology but we indulge in dumb as fock behaviours: "Let's have big public parties and show the virus we keep living!"
We live in the social era but we have never been more selfish: "I have booked this vacation and I am going there spreading the desease"
We have every comfort but we've become strangers to the concept of sacrifice: "We can't stop football! I've paid for my subscription"
We're eager to boast our moral superiority on other cultures but "Fock the poor and the elders"

Please see this rant as a probable glimpse inside your country-where-this-can't-happen's immediate future and act accordingly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 08:42:22 AM

Quote from: Luoto on March 09, 2020, 08:11:23 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 08:05:34 AM

Well, by now it should have been quite clear: it spreads fast and easily, there's no vaccine, it kills many elder and frail people and brings the sanitary system to a collapse if everybody is being hospitalized at the same time.

This is what I've understood as well but everyone clearly does not.

Well, there is a LOT that people clearly do not understand about it, or else the reaction and response would be more rational.  For instance, I think most people would be shocked to learn that, since October, the flu has killed an average of 9,200 people globally per months, whereas coronavirus has killed only about 2,000 per month since reporting in late January.  There are plenty of other data points we could look at as well.  But the main takeaway remains that the response has largely been uninformed and irrational.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 09, 2020, 09:08:20 AM

Love cruises.  Won't go on one now, mind you, but for what they are, they are fun.  I've been on two, and enjoyed both of them immensely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 09:10:12 AM

Headlines like "No Virus Symptoms To Death In Hours At Nursing Home!" do not help.  At all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 09, 2020, 09:10:31 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 09, 2020, 08:06:53 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on March 09, 2020, 07:57:47 AM

The worrisome thing to me is the impact on the economy and markets. My 401k has dropped $12k in less than a month.

Buckle your seatbelt today. S&P down 6% today as of right now. I'm on pace to lose more on my investments today than a will make in my salary over the next 2.5 months. Nice that I have enough invested to get big swings, but kind of scary. I'm definitely fighting the urge to join those who are selling.

I bought a ton of puts on s&p a couple of weeks ago and I've had a great return on them so far. Cashing out today. I may short the VIX now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Random thought for this morning:

Amazon delivery guy dropping stuff off at the jingle.household yesterday - "in light of the Coronavirus, I'm asking if it's ok for me to sign for delivery on behalf of the customers".

And yeah... 2 years of market gains wiped out in 3 weeks.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ted-cruz-is-quarantining-himself-2020-03-08

I'm still amazed at the defense of 'let's have some perspective.... the flu is so much more worse.'  Here's the thing with influenza... it's a 'known', and there's likely some consistency and predictability on the spread and mortality rates.  Corona... notsomuch.  Right around 4000 deaths at the moment in 2 months, and no end in sight to the growth trajectory.  Maybe when it's killing 10,000 per month - and still growing/spreading - then people will wish they took it seriously earlier. ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 09:22:19 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

I'm still amazed at the defense of 'let's have some perspective.... the flu is so much more worse.'  Here's the thing with influenza... it's a 'known', and there's likely some consistency and predictability on the spread and mortality rates.  Corona... notsomuch.  Right around 4000 deaths at the moment in 2 months, and no end in sight to the growth trajectory.  Maybe when it's killing 10,000 per month - and still growing/spreading - then people will wish they took it seriously earlier. ::)

Yeah, really. I mean, insight is 20/20, but once you got Hitler invading Czech Republic and annexing Austria and wanting to invade Poland as well... how long before admitting something must be done? "World War I killed so many more people, let's just continue with our lives as if there's not a megalomaniac racist power hungry leader stirring shit up in half Europe".

I know, it's kinda a lame comparison, I don't mean it so seriously, but.... the coronavirus is like war. It won't stop at Czech Republic, it won't stop at Austria, it won't stop at Poland. Our grandfathers fought and died and their houses were bombed, all we have to do is stay home when there's food and an internet connection, it's not that huge of a sacrifice. Financial complications notwithstanding, I feel for all the small business hit by this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 09:25:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Random thought for this morning:

Amazon delivery guy dropping stuff off at the jingle.household yesterday - "in light of the Coronavirus, I'm asking if it's ok for me to sign for delivery on behalf of the customers".

And yeah... 2 years of market gains wiped out in 3 weeks.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ted-cruz-is-quarantining-himself-2020-03-08

I'm still amazed at the defense of 'let's have some perspective.... the flu is so much more worse.'  Here's the thing with influenza... it's a 'known', and there's likely some consistency and predictability on the spread and mortality rates.  Corona... notsomuch.  Right around 4000 deaths at the moment in 2 months, and no end in sight to the growth trajectory.  Maybe when it's killing 10,000 per month - and still growing/spreading - then people will wish they took it seriously earlier. ::)

Right...because having perspective is such a bad thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 09:26:59 AM

If it starts killing 10k people a month then I'll worry. But the seasonal flu still kills a metric crapton of people every year, some worse than others, some better. There has been a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering over this. And really if you're not elderly or have a compromised immune system you probably are gonna be okay. Obviously wash your hands and just be hygienic. Maybe don't not wipe and immediately shake someone's hand. Common sense... I'm more scared of the common flu than the coronavirus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 09:28:07 AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8090761/Get-PAID-coronavirus-Scientists-London-pay-volunteers-3-500-develop-vaccine.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8090761/Get-PAID-coronavirus-Scientists-London-pay-volunteers-3-500-develop-vaccine.html)

Also, 6 confirmed cases in NJ.  One in the town next to where I work in North NJ, one in the town in south NJ where I had just stayed last week for a night.  I'm still not personally worried about myself or my investments, or my job security.  But it does seem its only a matter of time where this is everywhere. 

Part of me feels like what's the point of shutting everything down when this is clearly not contained at all?  But I think the "unknown" is the reason why we should still be active in trying to prevent spread.  The elder and sickly clearly will struggle with this so I'm sure no one wants to accidentally kill grandma and grandpa.  Plus if we can slow down the spread, maybe that buys time for a vaccine or cure or just better ways to diagnose and treat it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 09:33:13 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 09:26:59 AM

If it starts killing 10k people a month then I'll worry. But the seasonal flu still kills a metric crapton of people every year, some worse than others, some better. There has been a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering over this. And really if you're not elderly or have a compromised immune system you probably are gonna be okay. Obviously wash your hands and just be hygienic. Maybe don't not wipe and immediately shake someone's hand. Common sense... I'm more scared of the common flu than the coronavirus.

So you assume that everyone who is not elder or has a compromised immune system knows, and works with, and has relatives who are ALL, without exception, not falling in one of the above mentioned categories?

Picture this scenario: you are young and healthy, so who cares if you get the virus, you'll just spend three days at home taking a medicine. But then before that you passed it along to another coworker or friend whoe's young and healthy..... except that this person has a parent or a relative with a screwed up immune system. And they die from it. Is that ok?

Sorry, but saying "come on, as long as you're healthy you're gonna be ok" is like saying "Who cares about a building not having entrances for handicapped people, it's not like I'm in a wheelchair".

Think of the others. Think of what the virus on you, a young healthy person who'll spend at worst two days in bed, will do if you sneeze nearby someone who is neither young or healthy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 09:36:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 09:28:07 AM

Part of me feels like what's the point of shutting everything down when this is clearly not contained at all?  But I think the "unknown" is the reason why we should still be active in trying to prevent spread.  The elder and sickly clearly will struggle with this so I'm sure no one wants to accidentally kill grandma and grandpa.  Plus if we can slow down the spread, maybe that buys time for a vaccine or cure or just better ways to diagnose and treat it. 

I think all of that is right.  But I think the bigger and most important argument for still being vigilant and EVERYONE doing their part at containment is that, the more quickly it spreads, the greater likelihood that medical systems can get overwhelmed and not be in a position to be able to provide care for those who truly need it, whether in response to coronavirus or other medical needs.  Hospitals have a finite number of staff, beds, equipment, and supplies.  When things happen that stress those capacities, that is obviously bad.  Slowing the spread helps mitigate the risk of that happening, at least on a widescale basis.

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 09:33:13 AM

Sorry, but saying "come on, as long as you're healthy you're gonna be ok" is like saying "Who cares about a building not having entrances for handicapped people, it's not like I'm in a wheelchair".

Actually, no, what Katt said is NOTHING like what you just said.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 09:39:49 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 09:33:13 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 09:26:59 AM

If it starts killing 10k people a month then I'll worry. But the seasonal flu still kills a metric crapton of people every year, some worse than others, some better. There has been a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering over this. And really if you're not elderly or have a compromised immune system you probably are gonna be okay. Obviously wash your hands and just be hygienic. Maybe don't not wipe and immediately shake someone's hand. Common sense... I'm more scared of the common flu than the coronavirus.

So you assume that everyone who is not elder or has a compromised immune system knows, and works with, and has relatives who are ALL, without exception, not falling in one of the above mentioned categories?

That isn't what I said and that isn't what I believe. Don't jump to conclusions. I said you probably are gonna be okay. That is not a farfetched statement. Calm down.

Quote

Picture this scenario: you are young and healthy, so who cares if you get the virus, you'll just spend three days at home taking a medicine. But then before that you passed it along to another coworker or friend whoe's young and healthy..... except that this person has a parent or a relative with a screwed up immune system. And they die from it. Is that ok?

Yes, I, too, can describe a number of hypothetical situations. I never said that was okay. Anybody dying is a bad thing. But guess what? People die from the common cold and flu on a daily basis. It is all about perspective. If you are in good health, don't have any immune system issues, and aren't elderly, I can't imagine you personally are going to be at risk. But I also can't see everybody locking themselves up all day for weeks just to avoid, maybe, possibly spreading it to someone, when you have no idea if you even have it. You go about your life however you can and do the best you can. I'm not over here saying stop washing your hands and being hygienic, licking doorknobs and hacking a lung up on someone.

Quote

Sorry, but saying "come on, as long as you're healthy you're gonna be ok" is like saying "Who cares about a building not having entrances for handicapped people, it's not like I'm in a wheelchair".

Think of the others. Think of what the virus on you, a young healthy person who'll spend at worst two days in bed, will do if you sneeze nearby someone who is neither young or healthy.

Yes, I, too, am capable of understanding what happens when someone is sick. Thank you for speaking to me as if I am a child encountering his first cold, Mom.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 09:48:14 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 09:25:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Random thought for this morning:

Amazon delivery guy dropping stuff off at the jingle.household yesterday - "in light of the Coronavirus, I'm asking if it's ok for me to sign for delivery on behalf of the customers".

And yeah... 2 years of market gains wiped out in 3 weeks.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ted-cruz-is-quarantining-himself-2020-03-08

I'm still amazed at the defense of 'let's have some perspective.... the flu is so much more worse.'  Here's the thing with influenza... it's a 'known', and there's likely some consistency and predictability on the spread and mortality rates.  Corona... notsomuch.  Right around 4000 deaths at the moment in 2 months, and no end in sight to the growth trajectory.  Maybe when it's killing 10,000 per month - and still growing/spreading - then people will wish they took it seriously earlier. ::)

Right...because having perspective is such a bad thing.

Here's some perspective... there's a vaccine for the flu.  How many monthly deaths would there be if there were no annual vaccinations?  Cuz that's the situation with Coronavirus at the moment.  Let's average out some CDC stats and say that 50% of American's get vaccinated annually.  So influenza could easily be killing double (or likely more, since the most vulnerable are usually the first to get vaccinated) any monthly number to be paraded around for "perspective".  Additionally, I think we're already seeing that A) the mortality rate of Coronavirus is greater than that of influenza and B) the spread goes wider and faster.  Also, no one knows how many deaths attributed to pneumonia, natural causes, regular flu etc... there are that are really because of Coronavirus.

There's an old saying ... Hope for the best; plan for the worst.  Minimizing or ignoring the leading indicators is a potential recipe for disaster.

Sorry if I interrupted anyone's fiddle practice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 09:50:57 AM

Everybody panic and make sure to admonish others if they think it's maybe not the Black Death. That'll make everything better

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 09:52:24 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 09:48:14 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 09:25:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Random thought for this morning:

Amazon delivery guy dropping stuff off at the jingle.household yesterday - "in light of the Coronavirus, I'm asking if it's ok for me to sign for delivery on behalf of the customers".

And yeah... 2 years of market gains wiped out in 3 weeks.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ted-cruz-is-quarantining-himself-2020-03-08

I'm still amazed at the defense of 'let's have some perspective.... the flu is so much more worse.'  Here's the thing with influenza... it's a 'known', and there's likely some consistency and predictability on the spread and mortality rates.  Corona... notsomuch.  Right around 4000 deaths at the moment in 2 months, and no end in sight to the growth trajectory.  Maybe when it's killing 10,000 per month - and still growing/spreading - then people will wish they took it seriously earlier. ::)

Right...because having perspective is such a bad thing.

Here's some perspective... there's a vaccine for the flu.  How many monthly deaths would there be if there were no annual vaccinations?  Cuz that's the situation with Coronavirus at the moment.  Let's average out some CDC stats and say that 50% of American's get vaccinated annually.  So influenza could easily be killing double (or likely more, since the most vulnerable are usually the first to get vaccinated) any monthly number to be paraded around for "perspective".  Additionally, I think we're already seeing that A) the mortality rate of Coronavirus is greater than that of influenza and B) the spread goes wider and faster.  Also, no one knows how many deaths attributed to pneumonia, natural causes, regular flu etc... there are that are really because of Coronavirus.

There's an old saying ... Hope for the best; plan for the worst.  Minimizing or ignoring the leading indicators is a potential recipe for disaster.

Sorry if I interrupted anyone's fiddle practice.

Yes, and "planning" should be rational and rely on facts and data, not unsupported presuppositions.  (aka, let's have some proper perspective rather than operating on kneejerk reactions)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 09:55:14 AM

bosk, you and I are agreeing on a startling amount of subjects lately. Is there something in the water out there? Or maybe it's here. That Agent Orange might finally be taking effect...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 09, 2020, 09:56:07 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 09:55:14 AM

bosk, you and I are agreeing on a startling amount of subjects lately. Is there something in the water out there? Or maybe it's here. That Agent Orange might finally be taking effect...

I worry about you recently. Go get yourself checked out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 09:57:52 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 09:55:14 AM

bosk, you and I are agreeing on a startling amount of subjects lately. Is there something in the water out there? Or maybe it's here. That Agent Orange might finally be taking effect...

:lol  I think we actually agree on quite a fair bit of things in general.  We just do not have communication styles that, IMO, are very compatible with communicating in written form online, and I think we each can have a tendency to overreact to the other's written style rather than substance.

But...that was probably way too serious a response to more of a tongue-in-cheek post, wasn't it?  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 10:00:51 AM

Adami, you got openings? Bosk... I think that's all very true.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 10:04:34 AM

Back on topic, I think what Katt and I are saying is not far from this, for example:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/18-sensible-questions-coronavirus-answered-140600188.html

Those who get their information from actual doctors rather than the media or, worse yet, social media, are more likely to behave rationally and engage in behaviors that are productive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 10:07:14 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 09:39:49 AM

[...]

Well, first of all apologies if I sounded too snippy, that obviously wan't my intention. but:

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 09:39:49 AM

But I also can't see everybody locking themselves up all day for weeks just to avoid, maybe, possibly spreading it to someone, when you have no idea if you even have it. You go about your life however you can and do the best you can. I'm not over here saying stop washing your hands and being hygienic, licking doorknobs and hacking a lung up on someone.

Well, but as I'm seeing what is happening around here, as absurd and exagerated it seems, I have to disagree with the bolded part. Yes, people should lock themselves up, because of a lethal combination:

1) Our world is entirely interconnected, with six degrees of separation you probably go from Vancouver to Melbourne and maybe it doesn't even take six steps.
2) People are stupid. Period. People won't obey simple rules and so we have, looking only at Italy we have people actually escaping from the quarantined zone to go skiing, people travelling all around the nation, people boarding trains to escape Lombardy and therefore bringing the virus down south where there were hardly any cases to begin with.... yeah, in an ideal scenario where everybody is moderately and reasonably responsable, going on about our daily lives will suffice. But since people are morons, we all have to take a bit more extreme precautions, which are not so hard when you have food, heat and an internet connection.

You write You go about your life however you can and do the best you can, and that's correct. That's what I do too. I take the subway to go and come back from work, 90 minutes in total. I don't sweat panic every moment I'm on it. I'm not terrified whenever someone sits next to me, thinking they could infect me. I don't run out of the subway station the moment I step on the platform like if a murderer is chasing me. I go on lunch break to restaurants nearby and I don't look at other people with a "stay away from me you plague-ridden asshole". But at the same time, I know that shit is real and that sacrificing our weekends and our social gatherings for a month or even less is the right thing to do. And that has to happen everywhere before every nation reaches South Korea and Italy levels of infections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 10:08:55 AM

Bruh how do you expect people to stay inside for an extended period of time when people have to go to work? Yes the virus is real but people have lives to live. You can't expect the entire world to just stop. Not going out for drinks with friends is one thing, but at some point you actually have to go out into the world and just face it. I'm one hundred percent aware some parts of the world are much more affected by this than others, but I do think there is an overreaction about how serious and deadly this is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 10:14:24 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 10:08:55 AM

Bruh how do you expect people to stay inside for an extended period of time when people have to go to work? Yes the virus is real but people have lives to live. You can't expect the entire world to just stop.

Perfectly reasonable. Not everybody can do smart working. I can't, we're thinking about it but right now I come to work and take the subway sitting next to people for 90 minutes total. But smart working is a reality for many companies, so where it can be done, it should be done. I'm not saying that everyone in the same moment should stop to go to work immediately, but maybe sacrifice a month of social life and not go skiing or in an overcrowded pub?

We've seen photos here in Italy of skiing fields overcrowded. Now, say that only one of those people didn't even know they had the infection and now they've spread it all over the other people they met and the staff of the hotel they slept in, can I say that maybe they could and should have avoided it if they knew they live in the most hit region?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 10:25:02 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 09:50:57 AM

Everybody panic and make sure to admonish others if they think it's maybe not the Black Death. That'll make everything better

Just as there's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of perspective, there's also nothing wrong with a healthy dose of pragmatism.  I didn't mean to be admonishing anyone not treating this like the Black Death, I just don't think the other end of the spectrum - 'nothing to see here' - is the right approach. 

Though, Americans do have a penchant for not taking things connected to health and livelihood seriously, and engage in a lot of self destructive behaviours, so I guess I shouldn't be terribly surprised.  I'm not being coy, or tongue-in-cheek or judgmental.  Just citing an observation around facts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 10:27:11 AM

Chad, I'm not sure why you'd even mention that, then. You're quoting and responding to an American, and even with the caveats you listed, I can't think of any other reason you'd mention that fact. If anything, I'm taking health and livelihood seriously, here. Perhaps, maybe - and a reminder that no, I am not a doctor, I am just a schlub ruminating on his thoughts here, please do NOT take this and run with it to the most extreme conclusions - it's beneficial in the long run if people get sick from time to time, and since this virus is already well on its way to infecting the whole world, perhaps maybe people going out for skiing isn't the worst activity to partake in. I dunno. Spitballing. I wash my hands but I never ever use hand sanitizers (Germ-X and the like) or anything more than soap and water, and I almost never get sick. The immune system really is an incredible thing.

Nevermind that the indoors of most homes are more unhealthy than the outdoors, specifically the air quality, but that's something people don't like to talk about much...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 10:35:19 AM

What I'm saying is there is a culture of dismissing inconvenient facts and/or not taking appropriate action.  Obesity, drugs, and gun-related violence are three topics I can cite off the top of my head.  I'm not suggestion that the USA has a monopoly on those problems, and I don't mean to digress the discussion.

So, on the topic of being concerned about a global pandemic, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised when some don't see the need to be alarmed.

Look, I would like nothing more than for you/Bosk to be completely spot on about this.  But as I said ... hope for the best; plan for the worst.  Precautions are warranted - that's why, as one example, we are seeing company after company limit travel, and ban it outright to the hot-spots.  Continuing on with life as status quo is (by-and-large) unwise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 10:37:56 AM

I can't lie, Chad, there is something really rubbing me the wrong way about the way you seem to be comparing my posts with some bullshit American stereotypes especially because I know you know I like to discuss things more thoroughly than that. But I'll play. 'murrica. Me big brain. Me punch puny virus. Everyone else sissy girl.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 09, 2020, 10:45:05 AM

Serious question for those in the don't/not time to panic yet camp. How do you navigate this as a person in their later years? 

The CDC has recommended anyone over the age of 60 not go out to places like restaurants, theaters, sporting events, etc..

My dad is 63 and I can't remember a time ever seeing him nervous about anything. This shit has got him mortified. He cancelled his annual physical because he doesn't want to go into a doctor's office and risk catching it. My mom, sister, and myself ordered tickets for a show at Mohegan Sun in June and he didn't want a ticket solely because of Corona.

I'm torn. On one hand, I think he's being a little ridiculous. On the other hand, it's the CDC issuing these warnings. It's not the Huffington Post or some random physician being interviewed for an opinion piece. How/where do you draw the line between something being a knee jerk reaction and some kind of response grounded in at least a little bit of reality?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 10:46:55 AM

I can't answer that for several reasons. I am very sorry your dad is not handling this well, though. I hope he doesn't get sick.

I think that middle ground you're inquiring about is the best place to be, frankly, as uncertain as it might feel to be there. We just don't know enough about the virus and the vaccine won't be around anytime soon. It does no good to act like it's not a problem but it also does no good to act like we have to shut our daily lives down when there are a thousand other dangerous things around us at any given moment. I don't know, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 10:51:46 AM

My parents in their late 60s cancelled their flight to visit the family last weekend due to this.  My father was going for work which cancelled it based on no work travel but my mom was going for fun, to see the family and friends, and she cancelled her own flight ticket due to worries about being in the airport.  However, I see on facebook, my parents were out at restaurants with their friends all weekend so I guess they are mostly just concerned about being in airports than just being out and about. 

One question I have about the spread that makes me wonder if things are overblown.  Isn't there supposed to be some exponential curve on confirmed cases?  I feel like there's more every day, but not significant more.  Am I not giving it enough time or is it just because the US isn't able to test everyone, we don't have the right numbers? 

If I look at this map https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html) shouldn't this be all yellow by tomorrow and mostly red?  Why isn't it all yellow today? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 10:52:43 AM

Well, approximately 3 people live in Montana, so there's that.  :)

(Seriously, the sparse population of a lot of what you might call flyover country could easily be the simplest explanation for a lot of that. All of Montana has like, what, 1 million people?)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 09, 2020, 10:54:39 AM

I feel like a week or two ago we had the first case in New York, now we're at well over 100.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 10:59:05 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 09, 2020, 10:45:05 AM

Serious question for those in the Don't/Not time to panic yet camp. How do you navigate this as a person in their later years? 

The CDC has recommended anyone over the age of 60 not go out to places like restaurants, theaters, sporting events, etc..

My dad is 63 and I can't remember a time ever seeing him nervous about anything. This shit has got him mortified. He cancelled his annual physical because he doesn't want to go into a doctor's office and risk catching it. My mom, sister, and myself ordered tickets for a show at Mohegan Sun in June and he didn't want a ticket solely because of Corona.

I'm torn. On one hand, I think he's being a little ridiculous. On the other hand, it's the CDC issuing these warnings. It's not the Huffington post or some random physician being interviewed for an opinion piece. How/where do you draw the line between something being a knee jerk reaction and some kind of response grounded in at least a little bit of reality?

Trying to put myself in a position of what I would say if he were my dad:  I think I would be much, MUCH more cautious in that scenario.  There are two factors that I think lead to a much more different calculus for someone who is 63:  (1) Lack of data and info.  Chad mentioned this, and I agree.  But I think his application of that fact is off.  Or at least, I think there is a more prudent application.  There are things we DO know, so I don't think it is accurate to simply say "Lack of data--it's time to panic!!!"  We DO have a pretty high degree of confidence from what is known so far that it is likely about as deadly as the common cold, for most sectors of society.  That doesn't mean we brush it off.  But it does mean that for younger, healthy individuals, there is little to fear from catching it.  But we also know something else that is pertinent to your dad's demographic: (2) It hits older people or people that already have health issues a lot harder.  And it can lead to other complication, such as pneumonia, which, again, older and/or less healty people can have SERIOUS problems with.

So that said, while I think being "mortified" is an overreaction, I think it is perfectly reasonable and wise for him to temporarily scale back his exposure to large groups of people in close proximity.  I mean, I don't think he should forego his annual physical altogether, because that is important for other reasons.  But delaying it if not necessary right now is probably a really smart idea. 

It's smart for all of us to reevaluate how we do things, and to alter our own daily practices to maximize our own health and the health of others.  How we apply that on an individual basis is going to vary, for a lot of reasons.  But I think it makes perfect sense for your dad to take precautions that aren't necessary for YOU to take.  That isn't necessarily an overreaction.  His concerns are simply different than yours for very real, practical reasons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 09, 2020, 12:18:00 PM

I'm in a similar conundrum.  My daughter and I have/had plans to fly to Florida next week to see my folks (in their 80's).   I'm concerned; there was one case in their county, but it was clearly someone who had traveled to Italy.  I don't kn ow that there are any specific concerns with me flying from CT or my daughter flying from TX< but they are old, and my dad is handicapped (with a disease that is considered an immune system disease).   On paper, that says CANCEL! but it doesn't FEEL that way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 09, 2020, 12:22:51 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 09, 2020, 12:18:00 PM

I'm in a similar conundrum.  My daughter and I have/had plans to fly to Florida next week to see my folks (in their 80's).   I'm concerned; there was one case in their county, but it was clearly someone who had traveled to Italy.  I don't kn ow that there are any specific concerns with me flying from CT or my daughter flying from TX< but they are old, and my dad is handicapped (with a disease that is considered an immune system disease).   On paper, that says CANCEL! but it doesn't FEEL that way.

Yea, that's a tough one. Only because of the airports I think. You have no way of knowing, predicting, or controlling what you or your daughter pick up and can spread. I feel for you man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 12:24:33 PM

I would cancel (or, if possible, just postpone).  The key being your dad have immuno issues.  If either of you are unintentionally carrying it, or manage to, it could present serious problems for him. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 01:23:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 10:51:46 AM

If I look at this map https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html) shouldn't this be all yellow by tomorrow and mostly red?  Why isn't it all yellow today?

Looking at that map I see that Washington has 1004 cases, and Idaho (that's Idaho on the right, right?) has none. If someone in Washington has a ranch or whatever in Idaho, should they really go there? is it really essential and life-or-death situation that someone from Washington travels, meets people at stops, and eventually hangs around in Idaho because they missed their ranch or little second house?

28 cases in Massachussets and 0 in Maine, is it absolutely necessary that someone from there should travel to Maine to enjoy a seaside location? it works also the other way around of course, Idaho has 0 cases, is it really now the good time for someone from Idaho to go visit Portland or the major tourist attractions of Washington?

If everybody on the entire planet would magically stay at home, with a lamp genie providing for everything they need both for work and for eating, the virus would die down in 15 days flat, period. Since this obviously can't happen, there should be a logical and rational compromise between "each and every single person on the planet must stay at home" and "let's make every single possible trip and let's visit every crowded restaurant we can find".

The tricky thing, also, is that the virus has a long incubation period. It's not something immediate, you see someone getting sick, you quarantine him and his family and phew, we're done. It's so hard to trace the origins of the contagion so every counter-measure comes potentially 15 days late. That's why sever measures hsa to be taken BEFORE the contagion spreads. In Italy we didn't even find the "patient 0", the one that started it all, and we never will by now. The virus was already here when we started to adopt the first feeble measures (basically stopping all airplanes coming directly from China, letting those with intermediate destinations slip through the cracks).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 01:31:12 PM

Because everybody has a ranch and two houses. I'm willing to bet a large chunk of the people traveling have to travel for one reason or another, whether it's against the odds of them catching the virus or not. Not everybody's taking a damn ski trip or vacation or treating this like they're the new Logan Paul. I'm sure a number are. But let's be realistic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 09, 2020, 01:36:41 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 01:31:12 PM

Because everybody has a ranch and two houses.

Not always, but I think I got his point.  For instance, last week, I was in Spokane, Washington and contemplating wanting to travel to Idaho to visit Coeur D'Alene Lake and the city that inhabits it.  I didn't pull the trigger due to budget reasons, but say I had the virus and didn't know it, but wanted travel to another state.  That would have been really problematic for the state of Idaho.  Thankfully, I was only having a sore throat and some congestion, but I'm feeling better than ever now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 01:40:15 PM

Well, again, good thing barely anybody lives in Idaho.

Seriously, I get the point, though. But the post makes it out almost like a classist attack. It's just weird, it's a whole bunch of baseless and frankly strange assumptions that really don't have anything to do with the coronavirus outbreak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 01:41:39 PM

Speaking of cruises last page .... "State Department warns Americans not to travel on cruise ships"

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 01:40:15 PM

Well, again, good thing barely anybody WANTS TO live in Idaho.

Fix'd for accuracy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 01:42:26 PM

Last week I was in Brooklyn one night and a few nights later in Philly, both for concerts and couldn't help but think, if I were carrying the virus, how many people did I just potentially infect and in two cities ~ 100 miles apart.  But should I just stop because it's a potential scenario?  Totally different if I actually felt sick, but I felt fine and still do.  The bands are still touring and both shows were packed with people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 09, 2020, 01:48:31 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 01:23:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 10:51:46 AM

If I look at this map https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html) shouldn't this be all yellow by tomorrow and mostly red?  Why isn't it all yellow today?

Looking at that map I see that Washington has 1004 cases, and Idaho (that's Idaho on the right, right?) has none. If someone in Washington has a ranch or whatever in Idaho, should they really go there? is it really essential and life-or-death situation that someone from Washington travels, meets people at stops, and eventually hangs around in Idaho because they missed their ranch or little second house?

28 cases in Massachussets and 0 in Maine, is it absolutely necessary that someone from there should travel to Maine to enjoy a seaside location? it works also the other way around of course, Idaho has 0 cases, is it really now the good time for someone from Idaho to go visit Portland or the major tourist attractions of Washington?

If everybody on the entire planet would magically stay at home, with a lamp genie providing for everything they need both for work and for eating, the virus would die down in 15 days flat, period. Since this obviously can't happen, there should be a logical and rational compromise between "each and every single person on the planet must stay at home" and "let's make every single possible trip and let's visit every crowded restaurant we can find".

The tricky thing, also, is that the virus has a long incubation period. It's not something immediate, you see someone getting sick, you quarantine him and his family and phew, we're done. It's so hard to trace the origins of the contagion so every counter-measure comes potentially 15 days late. That's why sever measures hsa to be taken BEFORE the contagion spreads. In Italy we didn't even find the "patient 0", the one that started it all, and we never will by now. The virus was already here when we started to adopt the first feeble measures (basically stopping all airplanes coming directly from China, letting those with intermediate destinations slip through the cracks).

I could be mistaken, but I think that since coronavirus is so mild, so common, and spreads so easily, you usually don't find a patient zero.

...and also, what Katt said.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 01:51:29 PM

Mine were just examples, the first thing that came into my mind seeing a state with 0 sick people next to a state with a thousand. Of course people have to travel for work or for necessity. As I said, I'm spending 90 minutes in the subway each day because my company doesn't do smart working (for the moment). But the avoidable trips should be avoided.

To make another more grounded example: as it has been said, if people has to travel for work, they just have to. But let's take a look France, which is the fifth most infected nation in the world and the second in Europe.... was it really necessary to do this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s85xG9Ol3Po)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 01:57:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 01:42:26 PM

Last week I was in Brooklyn one night and a few nights later in Philly, both for concerts and couldn't help but think, if I were carrying the virus, how many people did I just potentially infect and in two cities ~ 100 miles apart.  But should I just stop because it's a potential scenario?  Totally different if I actually felt sick, but I felt fine and still do.  The bands are still touring and both shows were packed with people.

Theoretically, you still could be sick without being symptomatic.  Stories of people being infected for 9 days or more before being symptomatic are all to common.  And then any of THOSE people that you theoretically contaminated have up to 14 days before realizing they're sick. 

Or maybe you yourself were around someone who was infected, and now you are hosting.  This is the worst case scenario that everyone wants to avoid - the continual and constant spread that just keeps on going without anyone knowing they were a carrier until it's too late.


What I think people should be doing is A) eliminating the chance of being around potentially infected people (don't go Tango'g with a group who just returned from Italy).  B) eliminating non-essential activities if there's a chance you've been infected (ie, been around someone coming home from Italy recently).  C) Quarantining yourself if you've had exposure to someone infected (ie, Ted Cruz)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 09, 2020, 02:00:53 PM

I'm just going to stay inside and take bong rips until this is all over. I feel safer that way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 09, 2020, 02:14:59 PM

It's kind of interesting to think that the easiest way to solve this problem is to just shut down everything for two weeks worldwide. Everyone just stay home and the whole thing will burn itself out really quickly. Give everyone until Saturday to stock up on what they need and then just stay home until the ends of the month. Boom... problem solved. What could possibly go wrong? :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 02:15:39 PM

(this is, at least, just relative to the United States:) There are 105 confirmed cases in California. The state has almost 40 million people. 0.000265419% of the population has the virus. 22 people total have died in the entire country, which has over 327 million people. This is a big reason why I think the panic is absurd. People, you will be fine. Just be smart and hygienic like it's flu season year round.

Maybe not travel if you're in Stadler's shoes, though, for the sake of your old man. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 09, 2020, 02:18:34 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 09, 2020, 12:18:00 PM

I'm in a similar conundrum.  My daughter and I have/had plans to fly to Florida next week to see my folks (in their 80's).   I'm concerned; there was one case in their county, but it was clearly someone who had traveled to Italy.  I don't kn ow that there are any specific concerns with me flying from CT or my daughter flying from TX< but they are old, and my dad is handicapped (with a disease that is considered an immune system disease).   On paper, that says CANCEL! but it doesn't FEEL that way.

That is a wonderful conundrum while we talk about perspective.

Three weeks ago I would have said: "Fly to your old man, mate". Today? "Cancel, please."

Three weeks ago I lived in a country where I could work, travel, and feel safe because there were only a few cases and "only people who traveled to China anyway". Who gaveth a fock? If you are young and healthy you practically sneeze it off. It's not the Black Death, flu kills more people, life must go on.

Today I live in a country where I can't go to the pub, travel to me old mum or witness my step-daughter get her diploma, and I probably won't be able to shake my Boston Brother's hand this summer. All by governmental decree, mind you, because there are new 1500 infected and 100 deceased every day.   

Panic? Nah. Apalled by the social stupidity this whole deal has unmasked? Mildly. Mourning the death of Europe as unitary entity? You betcha.

My point? Regret. Had my country realised three weeks ago that the young and the healthy could spread this thing and royally fock the elder and sickly - not mentioning a whole sanitary system - up the wazoo, MAYBE the state police wouldn't be enforcing such sacrifices right now. As sure as fock I would have made those sacrifices (and I let you guess as a touring artist how much I'm losing as we speak) if told there was a 1% chance to avoid what's happening right now before my eyes.

This is not admonishment or fear-mongering advise, it's testimony.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 02:21:07 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 09, 2020, 02:14:59 PM

It's kind of interesting to think that the easiest way to solve this problem is to just shut down everything for two weeks worldwide. Everyone just stay home and the whole thing will burn itself out really quickly. Give everyone until Saturday to stock up on what they need and then just stay home until the ends of the month. Boom... problem solved. What could possibly go wrong? :)

Well, let's say theoretically we could shut everything down.  No one leaves their house fr 2 weeks.  Is that guaranteed to work?  I've heard different numbers about days/hours the virus can stay alive on surfaces. 

In my mind, it's too late for this.  It's out there alive and well.  We, as humans, will need to adapt and hiding just delays the inevitable. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 02:23:31 PM

I don't understand the logic behind 'if we had realized this weeks ago, the virus wouldn't have spread.' I would argue that it still would have spread elsewhere. It's a virus, it gets around. By the time it was in Italy it was weeks if not a month or more past the point of being able to contain it.

While I don't live in Italy, I'm writing this not to be callous, but to point out a very important piece of data in this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51777049

Quote

The national health institute said the average age of those who have died was 81, with the majority suffering from underlying health problems. An estimated 72% of all those who have died were men.

According to government data, 4.25% of individuals confirmed to have the coronavirus in Italy have died, the highest rate in the world.

The country has one of the world's oldest populations.

My sympathies are with the dead and the suffering. But I think the facts in bold should remind people that this is not (normally?) killing healthy people, it's not a Plague. Now I'm wondering if there's something to that Mediterranean diet giving the Italians a nice long life, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 02:34:56 PM

Meatballs

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 09, 2020, 02:45:20 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 02:23:31 PM

I don't understand the logic behind 'if we had realized this weeks ago, the virus wouldn't have spread.' I would argue that it still would have spread elsewhere. It's a virus, it gets around. By the time it was in Italy it was weeks if not a month or more past the point of being able to contain it.

While I don't live in Italy, I'm writing this not to be callous, but to point out a very important piece of data in this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51777049

Quote

The national health institute said the average age of those who have died was 81, with the majority suffering from underlying health problems. An estimated 72% of all those who have died were men.

According to government data, 4.25% of individuals confirmed to have the coronavirus in Italy have died, the highest rate in the world.

The country has one of the world's oldest populations.

My sympathies are with the dead and the suffering. But I think the facts in bold should remind people that this is not killing healthy people, it's not a Plague.

You're not being callous, my man, and I hope neither am I pointing out a virus is carried by people and the less people go around the less virus comes around. Leaving such matters to the immunologists amongst us, what the BBC is not telling you is:

1) a lot of infected healthy young people are in intensive care breathing through a machine for weeks.

2) me mum is old and me grandma is sick, and I'd like them to croak via Corona, not coronavirus.

3) right now yours truly, a relatively young and sensationally healthy individual, if stricken by serious illness, can quietly go fock himself because hospitals and available personnel are running on fumes at best, hotspots of contamination at worst.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 02:46:51 PM

Just saw from my local news on facebook, the county is saying there are two "presumptive positive cases" in my county including one at the hospital just down the street from my house.  My friend's mother is a nurse there and she is saying the person tested negative.  Why don't they just wait until the test is final before publicly making statements about presumptive cases?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 02:47:06 PM

@Indi :( :hug: (PHYSICAL CONTACT! well, digital...)

I'm sorry, my friend. Thinking of you and yours and the other Italians here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 09, 2020, 02:47:58 PM

A typical flu season kills approximately 500k people worldwide.  Compared to that, the Coronavirus is like spitting in the ocean.  :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 09, 2020, 03:12:18 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 09, 2020, 02:45:20 PM

You're not being callous, my man, and I hope neither am I pointing out a virus is carried by people and the less people go around the less virus comes around. Leaving such matters to the immunologists amongst us, what the BBC is not telling you is:

1) a lot of infected healthy young people are in intensive care breathing through a machine for weeks.

2) me mum is old and me grandma is sick, and I'd like them to croak via Corona, not coronavirus.

3) right now yours truly, a relatively young and sensationally healthy individual, if stricken by serious illness, can quietly go fock himself because hospitals and available personnel are running on fumes at best, hotspots of contamination at worst.

I'm sorry to hear that, Alex. Hopefully they'll be OK.


Sensationally healthy??  :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 09, 2020, 03:14:48 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 02:46:51 PM

Just saw from my local news on facebook, the county is saying there are two "presumptive positive cases" in my county including one at the hospital just down the street from my house.  My friend's mother is a nurse there and she is saying the person tested negative.  Why don't they just wait until the test is final before publicly making statements about presumptive cases?

Because that doesn't bring attention.  On that matter, has there been any confirmed cases where a person has been tested positive for Coronavirus and was able to be better and deemed healthy again?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 09, 2020, 03:18:58 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 09, 2020, 02:47:58 PM

A typical flu season kills approximately 500k people worldwide.  Compared to that, the Coronavirus is like spitting in the ocean.  :\

And that is WITH flu vaccines.  Imagine what it would be without vaccines.  Or if it was even more deadly and contagious.

There might not need to be much to imagine .... this is the path we could very well be on with Coronavirus.

Look, I don't want to seem like an alarmist or fear-mongering. I'd like nothing more than for such concerns to be unfounded.  But there is merit in being prudent and precautionary, rather than to dismissive and minimizing.  If you all can come back in 3-4 months and say "jingle, see what an ass clown you sounded like!", I'd be thrilled.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 09, 2020, 03:30:13 PM

Katt, you hairy sweetheart you.

Anguyen, 62496 recovered world wide.

TAC, I was alluding to body health, naturally.

DoubleAgent, like spitting a whole Arctic Ocean in the World Ocean (1/100 so far), but I get what you're saying. Your typical flu has also a case fatality rate of 0,1%, this one is gunning for 4%, so far.

jingle, you sound like an ass clown. I live to serve, I really focking do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 09, 2020, 03:37:57 PM

I'm more concerned about what this is doing to the economy.  Who knows how much worse it's gonna get?  The DJ fell another 2,000 points just today.  After all the damage is done, it could take years to recover.  I'd love to be wrong about that, but at this point there's no telling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 09, 2020, 03:42:27 PM

On that note, as a person that has very little experience in understanding how stocks work, is now a good time to invest?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 09, 2020, 03:54:52 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 09, 2020, 03:42:27 PM

On that note, as a person that has very little experience in understanding how stocks work, is now a good time to invest?

I'm learning a little more about it since I started an early retirement plan around the middle of last year.  The problem with the market now is that everyone is bailing out and causing prices to fall.  This is a good time to not be in the market, but if you're thinking about investing you might want to hold off for a little longer.  You know what they say, sell high and buy low.  I'm not bailing out though.  All I can do is wait for it recover and keep my existing contributions to the portfolio.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 03:55:52 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 09, 2020, 03:42:27 PM

On that note, as a person that has very little experience in understanding how stocks work, is now a good time to invest?

I know very little, but my banker friend said to hold out longer before buying in. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 04:09:58 PM

Anyway, since an hour or so Italy is basically "closed". The entire nation is a red zone, or a protected zone if you prefer.... all schools are closed up until the 3rd of April, all movements around the nation are discouraged unless they are for proven necessity (there's an auto certification document you have to sign and carry with you), all sports competitions are being suspended and that included the football championship, and stopping the Serie A in Italy is basically like stopping the Super Bowl in the USA.

So, what do you get when you cross an unkown virus for which there is no vaccine with a population that does not heed the invitations to precautions and to not travel around unless necessary? you get what you f'kin deserve, a quarantined nation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 09, 2020, 04:29:41 PM

WOW! And I still can't get Alitalia to refund my tickets.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 04:09:58 PM

Anyway, since an hour or so Italy is basically "closed". The entire nation is a red zone, or a protected zone if you prefer.... all schools are closed up until the 3rd of April, all movements around the nation are discouraged unless they are for proven necessity (there's an auto certification document you have to sign and carry with you), all sports competitions are being suspended and that included the football championship, and stopping the Serie A in Italy is basically like stopping the Super Bowl in the USA.

So, what do you get when you cross an unkown virus for which there is no vaccine with a population that does not heed the invitations to precautions and to not travel around unless necessary? you get what you f'kin deserve, a quarantined nation.

Can you give me any info on the essential services? Like, I imagine police, utilities workers, the Italian government are still operating... right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 05:32:37 PM

NJ just declared a state of emergency.  I think the presumptive positive at the hospital down the street was confirmed (according to my friends mom who changed what she said earlier about a negative).  It's also an 80 year old lady so that sounds bad off the bat. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 09, 2020, 05:34:39 PM

There's also reports of people in Illinois boarding trains with it between Springfield, Chicago (of COURSE), Bloomington, aaaand possibly Champaign which is right next to me. That karma tho. That's what I get for what I wrote today. That's my penance.  :) or, well... it will be, if I get it.

Stay well cram.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 09, 2020, 05:55:17 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 05:34:39 PM

There's also reports of people in Illinois boarding trains with it between Springfield, Chicago (of COURSE), Bloomington, aaaand possibly Champaign which is right next to me. That karma tho. That's what I get for what I wrote today. That's my penance.  :) or, well... it will be, if I get it.

Stay well cram.

Kattelox, I hope you stay well too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 06:50:24 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 05:34:39 PM

Stay well cram.

Same to you, but I'm not personally worried.  I mentioned awhile ago I expect to get it at some point, I still feel the same and until I get it or have been in contact with someone who has it, I'm just living my life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 09, 2020, 06:59:40 PM

OK... I can't believe I'm going to do this....




Anyone java Kleenex?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 09, 2020, 07:39:01 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 09, 2020, 06:59:40 PM

OK... I can't believe I'm going to do this....




Anyone java Kleenex?

Wrong thread Tim.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 09, 2020, 07:41:24 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 09, 2020, 07:39:01 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 09, 2020, 06:59:40 PM

OK... I can't believe I'm going to do this....




Anyone java Kleenex?

Wrong thread Tim.

How'd I fuck that up? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 09, 2020, 07:45:32 PM

Winner  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zoom E on March 09, 2020, 07:54:05 PM

I'm pretty chill about this whole coronavirus thing, but I do understand why authorities are taking this so seriously.

Think about the Spanish Flu pandemic that happened during World War 1. Apparently it was a flu with mild symptoms when the first wave of the virus was circulating. Then it mutated and became deadly. 27% of the world's population contracted it, and it’s estimated that between 50 million to 100 million people died from it. And it hit people between the ages of 20 to 40 the hardest.

I can't even wrap my head around that death toll  :sad:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 09, 2020, 09:44:27 PM

First death in my neck of the woods. (https://www.ktvu.com/news/first-coronavirus-death-in-bay-area-santa-clara-county-woman-in-her-60s)

I work across the street from San Jose City Hall, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I come down with it, though I'm banking on it being no worse than any other flu. Like others, I'm more concerned with the domino effect this could have on the economy if our medical infrastructure becomes overwhelmed.

On the bright side, traffic today was a breeze!  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 09, 2020, 09:56:05 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 09, 2020, 09:44:27 PM

First death in my neck of the woods. (https://www.ktvu.com/news/first-coronavirus-death-in-bay-area-santa-clara-county-woman-in-her-60s)

I work across the street from San Jose City Hall, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I come down with it, though I'm banking on it being no worse than any other flu. Like others, I'm more concerned with the domino effect this could have on the economy if our medical infrastructure becomes overwhelmed.

On the bright side, traffic today was a breeze!  ;D

Right? I drove from Nob Hill to San Ramon at 5pm in 1 hour ten minutes.

I take Bart into the city most days, I figure I got a bout coming to me at some point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on March 09, 2020, 11:55:58 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 09, 2020, 09:56:05 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 09, 2020, 09:44:27 PM

First death in my neck of the woods. (https://www.ktvu.com/news/first-coronavirus-death-in-bay-area-santa-clara-county-woman-in-her-60s)

I work across the street from San Jose City Hall, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I come down with it, though I'm banking on it being no worse than any other flu. Like others, I'm more concerned with the domino effect this could have on the economy if our medical infrastructure becomes overwhelmed.

On the bright side, traffic today was a breeze!  ;D

Right? I drove from Nob Hill to San Ramon at 5pm in 1 hour ten minutes.

I take Bart into the city most days, I figure I got a bout coming to me at some point.

See, this concerns me a little bit. I'm supposed to be doing some work for a client in San Francisco starting this weekend. I'm now debating on whether I should reschedule this. :dunno:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 10, 2020, 02:06:49 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 09, 2020, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 09, 2020, 04:09:58 PM

Anyway, since an hour or so Italy is basically "closed". The entire nation is a red zone, or a protected zone if you prefer.... all schools are closed up until the 3rd of April, all movements around the nation are discouraged unless they are for proven necessity (there's an auto certification document you have to sign and carry with you), all sports competitions are being suspended and that included the football championship, and stopping the Serie A in Italy is basically like stopping the Super Bowl in the USA.

So, what do you get when you cross an unkown virus for which there is no vaccine with a population that does not heed the invitations to precautions and to not travel around unless necessary? you get what you f'kin deserve, a quarantined nation.

Can you give me any info on the essential services? Like, I imagine police, utilities workers, the Italian government are still operating... right?

Yes, everything is still working, the government is reducing the sessions but they're still operating. Locally it depends, I've read that town hall offices here and there are closed, but the essential services are still operating.

It's not that people are forbid to move - they're strongly advised to do just the necessary. Go to and back from work, go to the supermarket - and there are more and more voluntary services to go shopping for elder people, with home delivery - and that's it.

There are so many memes floating around, it's good to see that irony has not been wiped out, one of my favorites that I saw yesterday said "We have the chance to say the world staying home and doing nothing, when it's gonna happen again?"  :lol

People shouldn't panic, I take the subway every day to go to work in what is the capital of Italy in everything but name and government offices. They should just accept that March is "stay at home month", sacrifice one month of trips and travels and cinema to the common good, that's all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 10, 2020, 05:45:46 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 03:55:52 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 09, 2020, 03:42:27 PM

On that note, as a person that has very little experience in understanding how stocks work, is now a good time to invest?

I know very little, but my banker friend said to hold out longer before buying in. 

This is the sentiment going around the investment bank I work at. There is some money to be made short selling index's if you don't mind the massive risk. I've been playing those options the past few weeks and have some pretty great money.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 10, 2020, 06:30:44 AM

Don't buy into the market just yet. If you do, think about looking at some gold related companies.

When the housing market is completely in the shitter, that's the time to buy. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 07:55:26 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 10:51:46 AM

My parents in their late 60s cancelled their flight to visit the family last weekend due to this.  My father was going for work which cancelled it based on no work travel but my mom was going for fun, to see the family and friends, and she cancelled her own flight ticket due to worries about being in the airport.  However, I see on facebook, my parents were out at restaurants with their friends all weekend so I guess they are mostly just concerned about being in airports than just being out and about. 

One question I have about the spread that makes me wonder if things are overblown.  Isn't there supposed to be some exponential curve on confirmed cases?  I feel like there's more every day, but not significant more.  Am I not giving it enough time or is it just because the US isn't able to test everyone, we don't have the right numbers? 

If I look at this map https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html) shouldn't this be all yellow by tomorrow and mostly red?  Why isn't it all yellow today?

This helps explain the exponential spread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kas0tIxDvrg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kas0tIxDvrg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 10, 2020, 08:23:30 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on March 10, 2020, 05:45:46 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2020, 03:55:52 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 09, 2020, 03:42:27 PM

On that note, as a person that has very little experience in understanding how stocks work, is now a good time to invest?

I know very little, but my banker friend said to hold out longer before buying in. 

This is the sentiment going around the investment bank I work at. There is some money to be made short selling index's if you don't mind the massive risk. I've been playing those options the past few weeks and have some pretty great money.

The best thing anyone can do at this point is stay in their current investments and refinance mortgages if possible.  We may never see interest rates this low again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 10, 2020, 09:46:15 AM

I just heard this morning that there is now a case in my city.  I'm not worried about me or my family, but I am worried about the older folks I go to church with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 10, 2020, 09:49:04 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 07:55:26 AM

This helps explain the exponential spread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kas0tIxDvrg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kas0tIxDvrg)

This is a FANTASTIC tutorial Marc, and brilliantly explains - mathematically - why we should all have some level of concern.

"The only thing to fear is the lack of fear itself".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 10, 2020, 10:41:56 AM

Work's rolling out a split location policy starting tomorrow, everyone in the office is assigned to one of two groups and the groups take turns working from the office and remotely for a week at a time. Looks like I'll be able to catch up on the DVR and finish Clone Wars this week :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2020, 11:01:20 AM

I work at a university in New York, and we're officially moving all classes to online only for the rest of the semester. That may significantly impact my job as many students will just go back and live at home and not be on campus for therapy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 11:13:02 AM

We use webex for video conferencing, with so many people working from home, the webex system was overloaded and barely working now  :lol virtual meeting systems should see a nice boost in revenue

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 10, 2020, 11:25:28 AM

I just got a new laptop at work, so I'm ready to telecommute if necessary.  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 10, 2020, 12:04:51 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 10, 2020, 06:30:44 AM

Don't buy into the market just yet. If you do, think about looking at some gold related companies.

When the housing market is completely in the shitter, that's the time to buy. 

Ended up buying some puts on the S&P and they are already turning a profit. . . .

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 10, 2020, 12:26:45 PM

Lombardy's president is pushing for even more agressive measure and the Prime Minister is considering them. At this point it's a race against time; will my company manage to sort out all the legalities to allow us to bring the working computers home before the entire region gets shut down? tomorrow I'll go by car just in case, by now people are fewer and fewer around and so there won't be the traffic that usual makes going to work by car a total and utter nightmare (unless it's August or saturday).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 10, 2020, 12:32:19 PM

I wonder what is going to happen when health care providers start testing positive and are told to quarantine and nobody shows up for their shift in the ICU?

Has anyone been reading the accounts from the doctors working in the hospitals in Italy?

I mean, I'm trying to remain calm and wash my hands and all.  But the staff at the nursing home in Washington where all those people died still cannot get clearance to be tested.  31 out of the 35 remaining patients there - their test results came back yesterday.  31 out of 35 were positive.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-09/la-na-nursing-home-positive-coronavirus-tests

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 10, 2020, 12:45:34 PM

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so look at this:

https://www.thesocialpost.it/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/5B38E0CA-024D-45B9-8419-574038D8D46B-1536x1111-1024x741.jpeg

An exhausted nurse at the end of an endless shift. So yeah, the problem of doctors getting sick is very real, they're all working inhumane hours, and the authorities are trying to hire as many new people as possible to make sure the hospitals don't go understaffed, which is another major risk with this virus.


And now, on the lighter side of things because it's important to not succumb to panic and despair, let's break the tension with this wonderful comment I've found online.... remember how I wrote some posts ago that now we have to carry around a self certification to testify that we're around only to go to work or for other necessities, someone on FB wrote:

"So now can I put in the certification that I'm going out because I need to see my boyfriend?" bitch, please, your grandpa managed to keep a relationship while fighting in the trenches and sending letters with racing pidgeons, so now send him a pic of your boobs and STFU.

 :lol :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 12:55:54 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 10, 2020, 01:23:12 PM

 :lol

I just had a continuity meeting in which we were supposed to come up with a plan in case we need to grant remote access to some employees or prepare for a complete shut down. 1 hour meeting: 15 minutes talking about the scarcity of toilet paper and how much people use, 25 minutes complaining about the government and the reaction to the virus, 10 minutes coming up with an actual plan, and 10 minutes talking about local cases of the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 10, 2020, 01:50:32 PM

Sad to hear how wide it spread in Italy. 10000 infected and 631 deaths so far, that's crazy. Stay strong my italian DTFers!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 10, 2020, 04:10:10 PM

First confirmed case in the hospital where my desk is. Thankfully, I haven't actually been to my desk in over a year. Guess I should visit it, but not for a while now. This is inching ever closer to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2020, 04:47:35 PM

So the company I cook for, Lyft HQ, has gone to bare essentials staffing, going from 2k employees to about 250. I guess there's a certain amount of staff they need in house to deal with whatever driver issues they may have. Our staff has cut from about 25 to 15,the bare minimum to run the two kitchens. Might go lower if this thing gets worse, which in my area I'm sure it will.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 04:50:25 PM

Will be interesting to see if NYC becomes a ghost town.  I've had great commutes the last two days without traffic.  I'm going to a concert tonight here in NJ while someone has a virus down the street from me.  I don't know if I'm being a dick by continuing to live my life, but I really prefer that to panic and lockdown.  If I die, I'm going out on my own terms not locked up.  Having said that, I clearly am not too worried about my health and am feeling the best today than I have in a month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2020, 04:56:05 PM

Speaking of my health, it's also false spring her and the graded and stuff are starting to sprout pushing my allergies into overdrive. Now every night I'm a running snit rag in bed hacking away, and with each cough I'm all "shit is that one coronavirus?"  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2020, 05:47:03 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 10, 2020, 04:10:10 PM

First confirmed case in the hospital where my desk is. Thankfully, I haven't actually been to my desk in over a year. Guess I should visit it, but not for a while now. This is inching ever closer to me.

How have you not been to your desk in over a year? Are you like that guy in the news a few years ago who everyone thought quit the company but was receiving paychecks for many years after he stopped showing up to work?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 06:00:41 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 10, 2020, 05:47:03 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 10, 2020, 04:10:10 PM

First confirmed case in the hospital where my desk is. Thankfully, I haven't actually been to my desk in over a year. Guess I should visit it, but not for a while now. This is inching ever closer to me.

How have you not been to your desk in over a year? Are you like that guy in the news a few years ago who everyone thought quit the company but was receiving paychecks for many years after he stopped showing up to work?  :lol

He's been working from home because he's in the medical field and knew to quarantine himself a year ago

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 10, 2020, 07:05:26 PM

Ivy League has cancelled their men's basketball tourney.  My good ol' Mid American Conference is restricting fans to theirs

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/28879490/mac-closes-tournaments-general-public-blue-jackets-home-games-continue-fans

Granted, these conferences don't have the huge attendance numbers as the the 'big boys', but it just all makes so much sense.  Here in metro Baltimore, our local universities are shutting down days before spring break, a couple of the seminar series that I've been attending have been cancelled for three weeks, and a couple of organizations I am treasurer for are skipping this month's meetings. 

We have two friends with husbands at a senior citizens' home.  Tomorrow is their last day to visit until ?   And....we had dinner with the two women and others on Sunday.  We were all doing fist bumps or waves or Vulcan greetings.  We also each had two elective surgeries in the past month, both of which we would have delayed if they were scheduled next month. 

At least all of our money will be refunded or credited regarding our cruise around Italy in May.  Our visit to Rome five years ago was so awe inspiring in spite of the 95 degree temps.  So odd to see The Vatican and Coliseum and streets deserted.  But they are doing the right thing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 10, 2020, 07:15:00 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 10, 2020, 07:05:26 PM

  At least all of our money will be refunded or credited regarding our cruise around Italy in May.  Our visit to Rome five years ago was so awe inspiring in spite of the 95 degree temps.  So odd to see The Vatican and Coliseum and streets deserted.  But they are doing the right thing.

You're lucky. Alitala are being dicks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 10, 2020, 07:39:58 PM

I cancelled my trip to Baltimore for next week. I was supposed to go to a conference for work (NFMT) and don’t want to risk it. The Hotel doesn’t want to refund me :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 10, 2020, 07:41:50 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 10, 2020, 07:39:58 PM

I cancelled my trip to Baltimore for next week. I was supposed to go to a conference for work (NFMT) and don’t want to risk it. The Hotel doesn’t want to refund me :(

You should see if your work will cover it. I mean, since it's for work, aren't they covering it anyway?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on March 10, 2020, 08:29:17 PM

Fun story time!

So, my wife was making her monthly Costco run at our local Costco. Among the things she usually buys at Costco is toilet paper. Apparently people have been buying and hoarding toilet paper (of all things) because of the Coronavirus. So naturally Costco is completely out of it, as well as completely out of bottled water. An irate shopper was making a huge scene and demanding to know why Costco would allow themselves to run out of stock of essential items. The store manager had come over at this point and was trying to calm him down. He (the asshat shopper) doesn't like what she (the manager) is telling him, so he punches her in the face.... At this point the man is restrained. The manager decides to not press charges (for some reason), but she does revoke his Costco membership. Now he is demanding to know why his Costco membership was revoked.....Seriously? You attacked the store manager, you are lucky you aren't in jail facing assault charges.

On top of that, we will need toilet paper fairly soon, so I decided to check on Amazon and just order some. There is no toilet paper to be found that isn't being sold for outrageous prices.... nearly $40 for 6 rolls? No thanks. What is wrong with people?

The lesson in all this? People are dumb and panicky. These idiots are going to feel stupid in a few months with their 2000 rolls of toilet paper in their house.

Anyway, rant over.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 10, 2020, 08:55:07 PM

Only later when he calms down, will he realize the gravest result of his actions... without his membership he will no longer be allowed to eat at their food court.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 10, 2020, 09:27:30 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 06:00:41 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 10, 2020, 05:47:03 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 10, 2020, 04:10:10 PM

First confirmed case in the hospital where my desk is. Thankfully, I haven't actually been to my desk in over a year. Guess I should visit it, but not for a while now. This is inching ever closer to me.

How have you not been to your desk in over a year? Are you like that guy in the news a few years ago who everyone thought quit the company but was receiving paychecks for many years after he stopped showing up to work?  :lol

He's been working from home because he's in the medical field and knew to quarantine himself a year ago

The Oracle foretold the coming apocalypse.

I'm in IT and a few years ago my manager told me to start working from home 2 days a week because I had an hour commute. Then I moved my desk to the hospital closer to home and started going in twice a week. Eventually, I just stopped going in entirely. All of my leadership is in Streeterville in Chicago. They think anything West of the city is Iowa. Even funnier, the only reason I was going in a year ago is because I had elbow surgery and needed occupational therapy. I would go in, boot up my laptop, check email, go to therapy, go to lunch and eventually go back home. To go into the city is a 2 1/2 commute by public transit. Driving is sometimes quicker depending on when I leave. Thankfully, I only go downtown 2 to 4 times a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 11, 2020, 02:05:37 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 04:50:25 PM

Will be interesting to see if NYC becomes a ghost town.  I've had great commutes the last two days without traffic.  I'm going to a concert tonight here in NJ while someone has a virus down the street from me.  I don't know if I'm being a dick by continuing to live my life, but I really prefer that to panic and lockdown.  If I die, I'm going out on my own terms not locked up.  Having said that, I clearly am not too worried about my health and am feeling the best today than I have in a month.

Well, if you were in Italy right now, you would be a dick. By now it wouldn't matter anyway, since concerts are all cancelled and if they catch you outside without a valid justification, you get fined (and yes, it's already starting to happen right now).

Now, I take this post as an example, nothing personal against you just like I had nothing against Kattelox a couple of pages ago. I get it, I really do - things are not dire over there, you bought a ticket for a concert, you want to go to a concert. The contagion here started right after I've seen Dream Theater - *I* would have definitively went to see them. So being italian does not make me an authority on what people on the other side of the world should do, but it allows me to give a perspective on what happens when everybody, at the same time, adopt the "I won't stop living" mentality.

Again, nothing personal against you - go to a concert just like I would have went to a concert when they weren't stopped yet. You're not gonna die anyway. The grandma of someone you infect (in the, right now, unlikely event that the guy in your street infected you by first or second hand) will. Or hey, someone else at the concert will infect you. Or maybe you are not infected, you never will be (fingers crossed for you and everyone else here!), but someone at the concert will be infected by someone else, and then spread it to someone else, who will spread it to someone else, and that someone else will infect an old or frail relative which will need intensive care. The possibilites are endless when everyone go around everywhere at the same time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 11, 2020, 05:55:30 AM

There's a sense of panic state in Norwegian media. Number of confirmed cases went from ~250 to ~400 in a single day, and doctors are quoted on saying we are losing track of who's been infected / where they caught it. I think 7 have been admitted to hospital atm.

Official guidelines say you are supposed to call your doctor or the ER if you have symptoms (not 911), or a newly established information number if you need info, but phone lines are completely overwhelmed for all three. People are calling 911 to ask questions, just because they can't get through anywhere else.

Granted, small numbers still, but this thing is growing fast and we're not very prepared.

I'm nervous.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 11, 2020, 08:17:01 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 11, 2020, 05:55:30 AM

There's a sense of panic state in Norwegian media. Number of confirmed cases went from ~250 to ~400 in a single day, and doctors are quoted on saying we are losing track of who's been infected / where they caught it. I think 7 have been admitted to hospital atm.

Exponential spread. Just like here in Finland, we're just a week or so behind you in the amount of confirmed cases. Right now we're at 59 and all transmission patterns are still known, but because it follows the exponential line almost to a T I'm expecting 180-200 confirmed cases by the end of the week.

My dad is supposed to travel to Helsinki tomorrow which is in the most affected region, but he just caught an apparent head cold with slight fever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 11, 2020, 08:47:39 AM

Quote from: Luoto on March 11, 2020, 08:17:01 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 11, 2020, 05:55:30 AM

There's a sense of panic state in Norwegian media. Number of confirmed cases went from ~250 to ~400 in a single day, and doctors are quoted on saying we are losing track of who's been infected / where they caught it. I think 7 have been admitted to hospital atm.

Exponential spread. Just like here in Finland, we're just a week or so behind you in the amount of confirmed cases. Right now we're at 59 and all transmission patterns are still known, but because it follows the exponential line almost to a T I'm expecting 180-200 confirmed cases by the end of the week.

My dad is supposed to travel to Helsinki tomorrow which is in the most affected region, but he just caught an apparent head cold with slight fever.

Yeah. I noticed someone was playing around with math and found that we could have 20 000 cases in 10 days. Unless we come up with something.

Authorities are slowly starting to react now, urging people to work from home, avoid public transportation and social events etc. But I fear it's too little, too late.

Trying to stay calm and not scare my 4 year old. But man, it's hard when you sort of know what's coming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 11, 2020, 08:55:13 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 11, 2020, 08:47:39 AM

Quote from: Luoto on March 11, 2020, 08:17:01 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 11, 2020, 05:55:30 AM

There's a sense of panic state in Norwegian media. Number of confirmed cases went from ~250 to ~400 in a single day, and doctors are quoted on saying we are losing track of who's been infected / where they caught it. I think 7 have been admitted to hospital atm.

Exponential spread. Just like here in Finland, we're just a week or so behind you in the amount of confirmed cases. Right now we're at 59 and all transmission patterns are still known, but because it follows the exponential line almost to a T I'm expecting 180-200 confirmed cases by the end of the week.

My dad is supposed to travel to Helsinki tomorrow which is in the most affected region, but he just caught an apparent head cold with slight fever.

Yeah. I noticed someone was playing around with math and found that we could have 20 000 cases in 10 days. Unless we come up with something.

Authorities are slowly starting to react now, urging people to work from home, avoid public transportation and social events etc. But I fear it's too little, too late.

Trying to stay calm and not scare my 4 year old. But man, it's hard when you sort of know what's coming.

Luckily, based on what we know about the data so far, your 4 year old should be fine.  And, I think you're right, world wide, we will probably have 100's of 1000's of cases in the next month or two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2020, 09:03:21 AM

"And the things that we fear, are a weapon to be held against us" Neil Peart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 11, 2020, 09:14:13 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 11, 2020, 08:47:39 AM

Yeah. I noticed someone was playing around with math and found that we could have 20 000 cases in 10 days. Unless we come up with something.

Italy is a much bigger country and it's passed 10 000 confirmed cases, so Norway will not accumulate at that pace. Because of your much smaller population the exponent will stagnate quicker.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 11, 2020, 09:17:25 AM

Quote from: Luoto on March 11, 2020, 09:14:13 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 11, 2020, 08:47:39 AM

Yeah. I noticed someone was playing around with math and found that we could have 20 000 cases in 10 days. Unless we come up with something.

Italy is a much bigger country and it's passed 10 000 confirmed cases, so Norway will not accumulate at that pace. Because of your much smaller population the exponent will stagnate quicker.

Just hoping you are right. Currently we are on track with the Italians, although we are a few weeks behind. The curves are nearly identical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 11, 2020, 09:18:29 AM

Quote from: Luoto on March 11, 2020, 09:14:13 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 11, 2020, 08:47:39 AM

Yeah. I noticed someone was playing around with math and found that we could have 20 000 cases in 10 days. Unless we come up with something.

Italy is a much bigger country and it's passed 10 000 confirmed cases, so Norway will not accumulate at that pace. Because of your much smaller population the exponent will stagnate quicker.

Indeed, also Norway's population is not concentrated but spread over fjords and mountains, the impact will not be that hard.

More reason, with the help from the nation's geography, to make of March the "stay at home month" and not go out unless for emergencies, work and grocery shopping.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 09:34:29 AM

Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on March 10, 2020, 08:29:17 PM

On top of that, we will need toilet paper fairly soon, so I decided to check on Amazon and just order some. There is no toilet paper to be found that isn't being sold for outrageous prices.... nearly $40 for 6 rolls? No thanks. What is wrong with people?

The lesson in all this? People are dumb and panicky. These idiots are going to feel stupid in a few months with their 2000 rolls of toilet paper in their house.

No kidding.  I kind of like that toilet paper has become the "front-page story" because it really exemplifies the absurdity of it all.  But it certainly isn't limited to that.  Here's a more practical example:  Being married to a Chinese immigrant, rice is a staple in our household.  And unlike a typical "American" household that just picks up a 5 or 10 pound bag at the usual supermarket, eating it a few times a week means that we usually buy the 50 pound bags at the Asian markets.  Well, guess what is sold out?  Yeah.  A staple diet item that is usually stacked on pallets is sold out everywhere.  She called one market yesterday, and they said they are expecting a shipment shortly--and are changing 10 times the normal cost due to scarcity.  Now, if there were a real, actual scarcity of the product, the price gauging would still be pretty disgusting, but it at least would be understandable.  But this is a scarcity that is manufactured solely by irrational behavior. 

Here's another example of the type of behavior that is also problematic for different reasons:  A friend of the family that my wife went to school with, who is also a Chinese immigrant, travels frequently to the Bay Area to take care of her elderly parents.  As she was taking them to a routine doctor's appointment a couple of weeks ago, they were stopped by protesters outside the doctor's office, shouted at, and threatened--just because they are Chinese and "brought this dread disease to our shores!" 

Way to go, people!

A lot of what some people are annoyed with right now are simply matters of convenience.  I get that.  But people behaving stupidly is creating some serious, legitimate problems for many societies that goes far beyond any complications this mild cold virus could cause.  And THAT is legitimately hurting people.  When people create scarcities, threaten others out of fear/prejudice, and overwhelm out medical systems so that those who actually NEED care cannot get it, those are huge problems that are attributable almost solely to behavior.

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2020, 04:56:05 PM

Speaking of my health, it's also false spring her and the graded and stuff are starting to sprout pushing my allergies into overdrive. Now every night I'm a running snit rag in bed hacking away, and with each cough I'm all "shit is that one coronavirus?"  :lol

Yeah, allergy season is a problem right now.  It doesn't have me worried about coronavirus.  But it does have the effect of making people who are already skittish look at each other with suspicion every time somebody sniffles or coughs.  Again, dumb and irrational, but it is real.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2020, 04:50:25 PM

Will be interesting to see if NYC becomes a ghost town.  I've had great commutes the last two days without traffic.  I'm going to a concert tonight here in NJ while someone has a virus down the street from me.  I don't know if I'm being a dick by continuing to live my life, but I really prefer that to panic and lockdown.  If I die, I'm going out on my own terms not locked up.  Having said that, I clearly am not too worried about my health and am feeling the best today than I have in a month.

If you are behaving like a normal human being and taking the necessary precautions to not spread it, I don't see how it is "being a dick" at all.  People who are susceptible due to age, other illness or medical condition, or compromised immune systems will likely not be at the types of events you are talking about and should be staying away from mass gatherings of any type.  And even if, hypothetically, you are carrying and do not know it, you are unlikely to spread it if you are taking the proper precautions (washing hands thoroughly and frequently, covering a cough or sneeze properly, not touching things/others, etc.).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 11, 2020, 09:46:17 AM

My kids brought home a nasty cold from their preschool.  My family just can't shake it - it's been 2 or 3 weeks and we're all still dealing with it.  I was on my train to work yesterday morning and a gentleman who was kind of nervous to begin with sat down in front of me.  At the same time, I coughed...just a normal, recovering from a head/chest cold cough.  He looked back at me and quickly got up and moved to a different seat, if not into a different car.   :lol  One slight cough and the guy freaked out.  I need to remember that when people are crowding my personal space.  Just cough and they'll quickly move out of my way. 

Chicago has a handful of cases, but with millions of people in the metro area and only 19 or so confirmed people with this virus, it's not like everyone around us is contagious with it. 

The panic buying is stupid.  Life is going to go on.  In a perfect world, we'd all stay home for two weeks, but the world isn't perfect.  My boss (and company) isn't going to tell people to work from home.  Some people don't have that option at all.  We still have to work, we still have to shop.  Maybe non-essential public gatherings aren't a smart idea (the city cancelled it's legendary St. Patrick's Day Parade), but the notion that life needs to completely cease for two weeks for everyone isn't going to happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 11, 2020, 09:58:44 AM

I don't see how stocking up for the possibility or eventuality of being in a quarantine for 2 weeks is stupid.  A lot of people are (imo, rightly) afraid of the spread, and tell me right now Bosk - if you couldn't go out for 2 weeks for any reason, do you have enough food in the house?  Even if you can, if the spread keeps at the current pace, if/when 10s or 100s of thousands involved in the supply chain of the food industry are sick and/or quarantined, how does that affect what's on the shelves?  Grocery store employees, delivery drivers, food terminal workers, distribution hubs... everything from start to finish.  If the contamination does continue to spread unabated, as Marc's video showed, the math of it all suggests it could be 100M people in less than 3 months.  Here's additional perspective

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/10/simple-math-alarming-answers-covid-19/

"We can expect a doubling of cases every six days, according to several epidemiological studies."
"That means we are looking at about 1 million U.S. cases by the end of April; 2 million by May 7; 4 million by May 13; and so on."
"In the absence of extreme interventions like those implemented in China, this trend likely won’t slow significantly until hitting at least 1% of the population, or about 3.3 million Americans."
"among 44,000 cases in China, about 15% required hospitalization and 5% ended up in critical care. In Italy, the statistics so far are even more dismal: More than half of infected individuals require hospitalization and about 10% need treatment in the ICU."
"Unwarranted panic does no one any good, but neither does ill-informed complacency. It’s inappropriate to assuage the public with misleading comparisons to the seasonal flu or by assuring people that there’s “only” a 2% fatality rate."

Yes, it's panic, but it's not irrational or absurd.  And it becomes self sustaining.

The bigotry and discrimination is a totally separate issue, and completely uncalled for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 11, 2020, 10:09:09 AM

The fatality rate is also tricky for the overall perception. Yes, luckily people are not dropping dead like flies. But it's not either dying or being perfectly healthy - a lot of people who don't and won't die, will need to be hospitalized in intensive care. At the same time. If too many people not-die at the same time, and they need all the hospital resources at the same time, you show up with a broken leg (flashnews: the virus doesn't stop other ilnesses or incidents, and all the other stuff for which people need medical carae) and you remain out of the hospital, because nobody can fix your leg when they're stuck with rooms full of intensive care patients.

What happens when there's a sporting event or a concert downtown? sport fans or concert goers ALL board the public transport to go there. And they pile up on top of people that work there and need the transports every day to go back home. So you have the people who already need the subway for normal, day-to-day reasons, and another whole mass of people who board it at the same time. Apply that to the hospitals and imagine how it would be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 10:14:58 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 11, 2020, 09:58:44 AM

I don't see how stocking up for the possibility or eventuality of being in a quarantine for 2 weeks is stupid.  A lot of people are (imo, rightly) afraid of the spread, and tell me right now Bosk - if you couldn't go out for 2 weeks for any reason, do you have enough food in the house?  Even if you can, if the spread keeps at the current pace, if/when 10s or 100s of thousands involved in the supply chain of the food industry are sick and/or quarantined, how does that affect what's on the shelves?  Grocery store employees, delivery drivers, food terminal workers, distribution hubs... everything from start to finish.  If the contamination does continue to spread unabated, as Marc's video showed, the math of it all suggests it could be 100M people in less than 3 months.  Here's additional perspective

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/10/simple-math-alarming-answers-covid-19/

"We can expect a doubling of cases every six days, according to several epidemiological studies."
"That means we are looking at about 1 million U.S. cases by the end of April; 2 million by May 7; 4 million by May 13; and so on."
"In the absence of extreme interventions like those implemented in China, this trend likely won’t slow significantly until hitting at least 1% of the population, or about 3.3 million Americans."
"among 44,000 cases in China, about 15% required hospitalization and 5% ended up in critical care. In Italy, the statistics so far are even more dismal: More than half of infected individuals require hospitalization and about 10% need treatment in the ICU."
"Unwarranted panic does no one any good, but neither does ill-informed complacency. It’s inappropriate to assuage the public with misleading comparisons to the seasonal flu or by assuring people that there’s “only” a 2% fatality rate."

Yes, it's panic, but it's not irrational or absurd.  And it becomes self sustaining.

The bigotry and discrimination is a totally separate issue, and completely uncalled for.

Responding to the bold:  Good, because I don't think anybody is advocating ill-informed complacency.  I cannot speak for anyone else, but as far as my post, I am simply reacting to the ill-informed stupidity leading to ill-informed overreaction, which creates and is actively creating more problems than the virus.  In some cases, far more grave problems.

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 10:14:58 AM

...and tell me right now Bosk - if you couldn't go out for 2 weeks for any reason, do you have enough food in the house? 

Most likely, yes.  And I say "most likely" instead of "more assuredly" simply because we have teenagers living in our house, and they could probably go through a 2-week supply in one sitting if we let them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 11, 2020, 10:15:45 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 09:34:29 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2020, 04:56:05 PM

Speaking of my health, it's also false spring her and the graded and stuff are starting to sprout pushing my allergies into overdrive. Now every night I'm a running snit rag in bed hacking away, and with each cough I'm all "shit is that one coronavirus?"  :lol

Yeah, allergy season is a problem right now.  It doesn't have me worried about coronavirus.  But it does have the effect of making people who are already skittish look at each other with suspicion every time somebody sniffles or coughs.  Again, dumb and irrational, but it is real.

Quote from: Grappler on March 11, 2020, 09:46:17 AM

My kids brought home a nasty cold from their preschool.  My family just can't shake it - it's been 2 or 3 weeks and we're all still dealing with it.  I was on my train to work yesterday morning and a gentleman who was kind of nervous to begin with sat down in front of me.  At the same time, I coughed...just a normal, recovering from a head/chest cold cough.  He looked back at me and quickly got up and moved to a different seat, if not into a different car.   :lol  One slight cough and the guy freaked out.  I need to remember that when people are crowding my personal space.  Just cough and they'll quickly move out of my way. 

My mother has asthma and man, does she feel it right now. She was just telling me today how people are quick to hurry away from her on the train whenever she has to cough. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 11, 2020, 10:21:50 AM

Blind stockpiling, although understandable, is pretty silly. Plus, assaulting supermarkets forming tight ques is a wonderful way to spread infections.

I feel I can provide a realistic lockdown scenario in order to defuse some panic because, you know, I'm focking living it right now. Products are circulating, stores are being refilled, a lot of extra (and free) home delivery service is being implemented. I can currently go shop (we are being let in two by two LA ramp style and we must keep a safety distance at the cashier) inside my residency zone. I can even exit the latter, provided it's a matter of urgency (work/health/subsistence) with a self signed document of good faith and truth in my pocket.

Again, please don't get me wrong, this is testimony. The best way to fight unealthy fear (the healthy one described by jingle is quite alright) is studying the facts, and I wish some Wuhan friend had told me some first-hand facts a month ago.

I can't help you with the toilet paper thing. We have bidets as plan B.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 11, 2020, 10:21:58 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 09:34:29 AM

rice is a staple in our household.  And unlike a typical "American" household that just picks up a 5 or 10 pound bag at the usual supermarket, eating it a few times a week means that we usually buy the 50 pound bags at the Asian markets.  Well, guess what is sold out?  Yeah.  A staple diet item that is usually stacked on pallets is sold out everywhere.  She called one market yesterday, and they said they are expecting a shipment shortly--and are changing 10 times the normal cost due to scarcity.  Now, if there were a real, actual scarcity of the product, the price gauging would still be pretty disgusting, but it at least would be understandable.  But this is a scarcity that is manufactured solely by irrational behavior. 

This is interesting to me.  Last weekend I went to one of our local Asian markets because we were out of jasmine rice and a few other things.  I noticed the rice was nearly gone and wondered if it was because of local panic or because it is imported from China and new shipments have been delayed.  I did not pay attention to the price but it didn't seem to be much higher than normal.

As for the fear of being around someone coughing - I briefly thought I was going to be pulled over for speeding the other day.  Thankfully I wasn't but I had a split second of wondering what would happen if when the cop asked me for my ID I started to have a coughing fit.   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 11, 2020, 10:29:01 AM

Mortality percentage at this point is meaningless.  The math is staggering because we are only a month into this.  There isn't enough data and not enough time has passed to accurately calculate mortality rate.  Thousands of people have already recovered.  That is a positive counter factor as time progresses.  We will begin to see that there will be far more recoveries than deaths.  That drives the mortality percentage down over time.  People are in a premature panic for no reason and as Bosk said, it's causing more problems than people just being worried about sickness.  People are lashing out emotionally without the benefit of intellect.  That is the true tragedy of this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 11, 2020, 10:36:51 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 11, 2020, 10:29:01 AM

Mortality percentage at this point is meaningless.  The math is staggering because we are only a month into this.  There isn't enough data and not enough time has passed to accurately calculate mortality rate.  Thousands of people have already recovered.  That is a positive counter factor as time progresses.  We will begin to see that there will be far more recoveries than deaths.  That drives the mortality percentage down over time.  People are in a premature panic for no reason and as Bosk said, it's causing more problems than people just being worried about sickness.  People are lashing out emotionally without the benefit of intellect.  That is the true tragedy of this.

More people will heal, but also, more people that have mild cases will be identified as having it.  That's a part of the math too, that initially, the cases we know are the most severe. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 11, 2020, 10:40:36 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 09:34:29 AM

Here's a more practical example:  Being married to a Chinese immigrant, rice is a staple in our household.  And unlike a typical "American" household that just picks up a 5 or 10 pound bag at the usual supermarket, eating it a few times a week means that we usually buy the 50 pound bags at the Asian markets.  Well, guess what is sold out?  Yeah.  A staple diet item that is usually stacked on pallets is sold out everywhere.  She called one market yesterday, and they said they are expecting a shipment shortly--and are changing 10 times the normal cost due to scarcity.  Now, if there were a real, actual scarcity of the product, the price gauging would still be pretty disgusting, but it at least would be understandable.  But this is a scarcity that is manufactured solely by irrational behavior. 

I understand this is like the smallest issue to inquire about with respect to your overall post, but out of curiosity, did you go and just pick up a few 5 or 10 pound bags to make up the difference? (For me, living alone, eating rice several times a week, a single 10 pound bag of jasmine rice lasts me weeks on end.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 10:41:56 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 11, 2020, 10:21:58 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 09:34:29 AM

rice is a staple in our household.  And unlike a typical "American" household that just picks up a 5 or 10 pound bag at the usual supermarket, eating it a few times a week means that we usually buy the 50 pound bags at the Asian markets.  Well, guess what is sold out?  Yeah.  A staple diet item that is usually stacked on pallets is sold out everywhere.  She called one market yesterday, and they said they are expecting a shipment shortly--and are changing 10 times the normal cost due to scarcity.  Now, if there were a real, actual scarcity of the product, the price gauging would still be pretty disgusting, but it at least would be understandable.  But this is a scarcity that is manufactured solely by irrational behavior. 

This is interesting to me.  Last weekend I went to one of our local Asian markets because we were out of jasmine rice and a few other things.  I noticed the rice was nearly gone and wondered if it was because of local panic or because it is imported from China and new shipments have been delayed.  I did not pay attention to the price but it didn't seem to be much higher than normal.

Yeah, I thought about the source issue myself.  I suspect it is a bit of both, but don't know.  But on the supply chain issue, keep in mind that a lot of the rice that is sold and consumed in this country is not even from abroad, even if it has Chinese or Japanese characters on the packaging.  Most of our rice in this country comes from California and the Gulf states (I saw a stat suggesting that less than 10% of our rice is imported).

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 11, 2020, 10:29:01 AM

People are lashing out emotionally without the benefit of intellect.  That is the true tragedy of this.

For sure.  And especially when, as mentioned above, it creates far more dire problems than those posted by the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 11, 2020, 10:42:43 AM

We - Connecticut - just passed an emergency bill making it a crime to boost prices beyond normal market fluctuations on any essential good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 11, 2020, 10:44:10 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 11, 2020, 10:42:43 AM

We - Connecticut - just passed an emergency bill making it a crime to boost prices beyond normal market fluctuations on any essential good.

WHY?!?!?

Let the market work itself out god dammit!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 11, 2020, 10:48:14 AM

@ Bosk... I never meant to suggest anyone here was advocating ill-informed complacency. 

@ Alex... thanks for that real-time testimonial.  I still might do a larger-than-usual grocery run this weekend.  Better safe than sorry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 10:52:20 AM

If anything I will do a bit more than a normal grocery run, I havent gone grocery shopping in two weeks now so I am not sure I could survive another two weeks.  Maybe eating a bare minimum of really basic food would work but that would be pretty miserable.  Also, stock up on booze.  Would definitely need that if I can't leave the house.  Having said that, I really just don't see a home confinement coming unless I actually start getting sick. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 11, 2020, 10:59:05 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 10:52:20 AM

If anything I will do a bit more than a normal grocery run, I havent gone grocery shopping in two weeks now so I am not sure I could survive another two weeks.  Maybe eating a bare minimum of really basic food would work but that would be pretty miserable.  Also, stock up on booze.  Would definitely need that if I can't leave the house.  Having said that, I really just don't see a home confinement coming unless I actually start getting sick.

I've bought two boxes of canned beef (I think it's like 500g cans with 24 of them in each box) last autumn and I think I'm through maybe five or six cans. :lol I can probably survive for more than a month. They also last for like ten years.

What can I say, they were fairly cheap.

That being said, no big stockpiling is happening in Moscow right now. The toilet paper is in stock everywhere and all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 11:02:24 AM

Canned beef?  oof hard pass  :lol well, in my mind, this is not like a hurricane warning where the power will go out.  I don't see the need to stock pile canned goods.  I can freeze my excess chicken I buy.  I don't see the need to buy bottled water, I have a sink and a brita filter... the TP does actually make some sense.  Luckily I stocked up before this broke out and I haven't even started using that stock pile. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 11, 2020, 11:09:03 AM

a U.S. shutdown is imminent....


Connor Letourneau
@Con_Chron
San Francisco is banning gatherings of more than 1,000 people, including Warriors games.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 11, 2020, 11:18:08 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 10:41:56 AM

Yeah, I thought about the source issue myself.  I suspect it is a bit of both, but don't know.  But on the supply chain issue, keep in mind that a lot of the rice that is sold and consumed in this country is not even from abroad, even if it has Chinese or Japanese characters on the packaging.  Most of our rice in this country comes from California and the Gulf states (I saw a stat suggesting that less than 10% of our rice is imported).

I had no idea and just assumed it was all imported.  Interesting.  For the record, the Asian market in our area has plenty of toilet paper.   ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 11:22:09 AM

Also, was just wondering, what type of treatment do they give people who are suffering from this?  Like if I go to the hospital, what are they providing there that I can't get at home since there is no cure?  Is it just IVs and being monitored?  Is there some form of medication that helps that a hospital can provide?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 11:30:20 AM

I don't think there is anything specific for it, from what I have heard so far.  Coronavirus, in general, is one of the two viruses that we refer to as the common cold.  It has been around forever.  And my understanding from reading up and talking to medical professionals I know is, for a body with a healthy immune system, it tends to resolve itself soon, with bed rest, proper fluids, etc. (the types of things mom always told you to do).  The tricky part is if it causes pneumonia or other respiratory issues--which is where it creates bigger problems that you may actually need a hospital to treat. 

That is, in a nutshell, why the medical advice I have been seeing is: If you think you have it, isolate and treat it like a cold, and do not come into a hospital where you will potentially (1) spread it, (2) overburden a system that is running on fumes already at the moment, and divert care from those who may need it more, and (3) not really get anything that will help.  BUT, if you develop respiratory issues of any sort, get in touch with your doctor right away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 11, 2020, 11:32:30 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 11:22:09 AM

Also, was just wondering, what type of treatment do they give people who are suffering from this?  Like if I go to the hospital, what are they providing there that I can't get at home since there is no cure?  Is it just IVs and being monitored?  Is there some form of medication that helps that a hospital can provide?

Going to the hospital is basically what sent everything tits up 'round here, since it spread to people in the waiting rooms and the poor saps who were there just for - say - MRI. After a bit of tragic trial and error, they established dedicated telephone lines and ambulance services. People with low to mild cases are in home confinement and treat the symptoms like a common flu. I don't have specific knowledge about what happens in intensive care apart from resorting to IVs and breathing machines. Our "patient one" was deemed fully recovered yesterday and we were told by the press he was given , among other things, HIV and Ebola treatments. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 11:39:47 AM

Thanks for the response.  Just keep thinking about, if I feel sick, should I bother calling a hotline, should I bother going to a doctor or ER?  Is there a reason to do any of that other than to be a statistic?  Because from everything I had gathered, and it seems the last two responses agree, just bunker down and treat it the way you would any basic cold or flu.  Unless you have breathing problems.  Which leads me to something I saw on facebook.  So don't necessarily trust it, but I can't see this basic test being any harm even if it's BS:

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/88961774_10217334945825812_3665327319494426624_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=I-BgDlvlUe0AX_CQ7nV&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=bae970ea11672aec81fef2adf2dc1de3&oe=5E90B574)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 11, 2020, 11:32:30 AM

Our "patient one" was deemed fully recovered yesterday and we were told by the press he was given , among other things, HIV and Ebola treatments. 

As much as the bolded may make folks want to just :facepalm:, I can say from personal experience that it's not all that irrational.  Sometimes, if you come in for something that isn't commonly tested for, and the doctor/clinic/hospital has no way of testing for what you actually have, and they don't know what you have, it can be a scary thing.  They test for everything they've got, and none of the tests show positive, but you obviously have something.  So they often just do the best they can to figure out the "worst case scenarios" for things that behave similarly to the symptoms you are showing, and treat things that could cause serious consequences if left untreated, just in case it turns out to be that.  I can tell you, again, from personal experience, that it can be incredibly frustrating and morale-crushing to be very sick, and have the doctors still have no clue what you have after running test after test after test.

EDIT:  Cram, I'm obviously no doctor so I don't know for sure, but I read in a couple of places that the water thing is B.S.  So the other part of it may be as well.  I think that if that were a thing, it would be part of the CDC bulletins.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on March 11, 2020, 11:43:25 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 11, 2020, 10:48:14 AM

I still might do a larger-than-usual grocery run this weekend.  Better safe than sorry.

Just don't be the guy that grabs every roll of toilet paper in the store. Or punch the store manager just because the store is out of something.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 11, 2020, 11:44:11 AM

There is no "treatment" for COVID-19 per se.  If lung functioning is compromised, then patients may be given oxygen or in worse case scenarios, placed on ventilators.  (One doctor in Italy referred to ventilators as "gold" in their hospital setting.)

Also check in with your primary doctor's website.  I got an email from mine yesterday offering assessments via Skype or other forms of teleconferencing to limit possible spread to other patients in the office and take some of the burden off clinic staff with people wanting to be seen for every cough and sniffle.  I think we'll be seeing this more and more of these triage type assessments depending upon how things continue to go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 11, 2020, 11:48:04 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 11, 2020, 11:32:30 AM

Our "patient one" was deemed fully recovered yesterday and we were told by the press he was given , among other things, HIV and Ebola treatments. 

As much as the bolded may make folks want to just :facepalm:, I can say from personal experience that it's not all that irrational.  Sometimes, if you come in for something that isn't commonly tested for, and the doctor/clinic/hospital has no way of testing for what you actually have, and they don't know what you have, it can be a scary thing.  They test for everything they've got, and none of the tests show positive, but you obviously have something.  So they often just do the best they can to figure out the "worst case scenarios" for things that behave similarly to the symptoms you are showing, and treat things that could cause serious consequences if left untreated, just in case it turns out to be that.  I can tell you, again, from personal experience, that it can be incredibly frustrating and morale-crushing to be very sick, and have the doctors still have no clue what you have after running test after test after test.

Exactly, bosk. I'll tell you more: as reported in an interview, the medical staffer who proposed to test "patient one" (a healthy 38 years old man who runs marathons as a hobby)  for CoVid 19 after every diagnosis had failed thought it was a laughably far-fetched option.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 11, 2020, 12:08:36 PM

+ 169 today. We're top 5, despite our population being just over 5 million. Most of us live in cities, Oslo and the region has a million alone.

(https://www.diskusjon.no/uploads/monthly_2020_03/11032020.PNG.4e23eab7f80ba29b8f110a030d29f27a.PNG)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2020, 12:15:27 PM

New cases in the U.S. have been low the last couple of days.  I think that means cases here are likely underreported, which is potentially both good and bad.  Bad in the sense that it is more widespread than what the numbers indicate, which means it is harder to find/treat.  Good in the sense that, if people have it who aren't reporting, it maybe isn't really impacting them very hard to the point where they realize they have it or feel the need to be tested.

Anyhow...on a different subject, I added the tracking link to the OP so people can find it easily if they don't have it bookmarked.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 11, 2020, 12:17:13 PM

Quote from: T-ski on March 11, 2020, 11:09:03 AM

a U.S. shutdown is imminent....


Connor Letourneau
@Con_Chron
San Francisco is banning gatherings of more than 1,000 people, including Warriors games.

We have Celtics tickets this week. Dammit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2020, 12:21:08 PM

Saw a stat today that airline sales are 70% less right now then after 9/11. That kind of sums shit up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 11, 2020, 12:27:06 PM

3 different schools have closed here at least temporarily due to parents of students having been diagnosed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2020, 01:00:52 PM

3 presumptive cases here in NM. All 3 are Isolated at home. The State declares a public health emergency, high attendence events postponed or cancelled.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 01:06:59 PM

I see my alma mater, Penn State, has told people not to come back from spring break and all courses will be online starting Monday and is slated for 3 weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 11, 2020, 01:14:12 PM

I wonder how the schools are going to handle payments. I'd be livid if dorm and/or campus associated costs were baked into my tuition, and then I ended up using neither.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 11, 2020, 01:27:11 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2020, 11:39:47 AM

Thanks for the response.  Just keep thinking about, if I feel sick, should I bother calling a hotline, should I bother going to a doctor or ER?  Is there a reason to do any of that other than to be a statistic?  Because from everything I had gathered, and it seems the last two responses agree, just bunker down and treat it the way you would any basic cold or flu.  Unless you have breathing problems.  Which leads me to something I saw on facebook.  So don't necessarily trust it, but I can't see this basic test being any harm even if it's BS:

Can't find international sources, only italian ones, but yeah, it's BS. Do it just for the lulz, you don't damage your lungs by doing a harmless check of your breathing abilities, but don't take it as an anti Covid-19 proof.

Oh, and even though I hardly reply to him, let me confirm that everything Indiscipline writes is true and correct. Living in the same nation by now we're on the same wavelength, of course from nation to nation the perception of the issue might vary also depending on how much the infection spreads.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 11, 2020, 01:32:04 PM

First confirmed death now here in Sweden.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 11, 2020, 02:36:37 PM

just announced March Madness will not have any fans in attendance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2020, 02:42:21 PM

Gonna be bummed if the HAKEN concert next Wed. in St. Louis is cancelled    :'(     I have a feeling that's the way it's heading.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 11, 2020, 02:44:23 PM

I was firmly in the camp that this was minor issue a week ago, but obviously I was wrong.  Hopefully its growth starts to decline everywhere and life can get back to normal as soon possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 11, 2020, 06:43:01 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 11, 2020, 12:17:13 PM

San Francisco is banning gatherings of more than 1,000 people, including Warriors games.

King/Pierce/Sno counties here in WA have it at 250. "The ban will apply to social, recreational, spiritual, and other community gatherings. That includes parades, concerts, conventions, sporting events, fundraisers, and festivals..."

School districts closing up shop for 2 weeks around here. Mine hasn't announced it yet, but as Seattle and other large districts start the trend, many more will follow, despite many districts not having evidence of one student, parent, or staff member testing positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 11, 2020, 07:00:55 PM

Almost thought of making a separate thread for....

"Did anyone have the flu in December/January?"

I'm older, and I now get it every 18-24 months.  I went three years at work without missing a day before I retired from full time work, but these have knocked me for a loop.

Anyhoo....four days before last xmas, this one was different.  Hardly any sweats, very little chills, but....I couldn't stay awake more than two hours at a time.  I also couldn't inhale enough to take a puff of a cigarette (lucky me....I'm down to under a pack a week since, and I toss half of them away after lighting).  I Rip Van Winkled away over two weeks (just like the Ravens did during their playoff game ;) that I had to suffer through later because I gave up my ticket and dozed during the 3rd quarter).  I slept on the basement couch, or just passed out on the living room couch ten minutes into any show I tried to watch.  Other, younger people I knew had the runs, sniffles, plugged nose, coughing jags, etc.... but not me.

Had that happened to me now, I would have been scared sh*tless!  Somehow, my wife who can catch a cold from the wind, never got it. 

Now, my volunteer work involves being around high school kids, and the elderly.  We've discontinued getting the end of the day bagels from two companies to give to two organizations the next day.

My wife is now at the movies.  I went out with a friend for lunch and a drink.  We're still trying to support the local businesses, but we're trying our best to take precautions as much as we can when out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 11, 2020, 07:04:43 PM

My whole family got it the third week of Feb. My wife, whom I met in 2006, says she cannot recall me ever having the flu since we've met, and I honestly don't remember the last time I did. Lots of stuff being expelled from my body with alarming regularity and serious chills/aches. I was feeling 80% in 24 hours, back to 100% in 48.

With the recent NBA news, this could be a big turning point in the world of sports. Hot take, I know...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 11, 2020, 08:37:57 PM

We had something nasty run through our kitchen in February, and some of the guys had that barking cough.


Just saw Tom Hanks and his wife tested positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 11, 2020, 08:39:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 11, 2020, 08:37:57 PM

Just saw Tom Hanks and his wife tested positive.

Yeah, apparently they're in Australia.



Guess I'm not seeing the Celtics Friday night.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 11, 2020, 08:47:03 PM

Uh ... so ... yeah.  The amount of shit hitting the fan is accelerating, and not looking like it'll slow down.

Just in the last couple of hours:

1) NBA suspends season after Rudy Gobert (OKC) tests positive.  And the ass clown the other day breathed heavily and mockingly patted all of the media microphones after his interview.  Oh... and yay Toronto - the Raptors just played there on Monday.  I fully expect the NHL to follow suit tomorrow.  How can they not with all the cities that share arenas?
2) Trump announces the suspension of flights from Europe (sans UK) for the next 30 days.  Tim, hopefully this gets your money back.
3) Italy imposing even more restrictions.

Who knows what's next.  There is no stopping this ... there's only the hopes of slowing it down to flatten the curve.  Several Health authorities/agencies are suggesting 30%-70% of populations could get infected.

Everyone stay safe and take all necessary precautions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 11, 2020, 08:49:52 PM

When you are a billionaire and find out your business is being shut down indefinitely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVNV3wj1gE8

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 11, 2020, 08:51:15 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 11, 2020, 08:47:03 PM

2) Trump announces the suspension of flights from Europe (sans UK) for the next 30 days.  Tim, hopefully this gets your money back.

Well, apparently we bought a non refundable ticket from Alitalia. I tried to cancel last week, but they basically said we were screwed. They said if the flight was ultimately cancelled, we would be refunded.

They are waiving the change fee for upcoming flights, but since our trip isn't until the end of July, we just have to wait and see what happens.

If there's still a travel ban in July, we may have some recourse. But until then, we are just waiting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 11, 2020, 08:55:25 PM

Hurm... wife and oldest are scheduled to fly back from the UK, via Dublin, on the 32nd day starting from this Friday, when it goes in to effect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 11, 2020, 08:55:47 PM

Hope you get your money back for those NBA tickets though

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 11, 2020, 09:43:30 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 11, 2020, 08:47:03 PM

Everyone stay safe and take all necessary precautions.

Amen to that.  Scary times right now.  :( :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:18:07 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 11, 2020, 07:00:55 PM

Almost thought of making a separate thread for....

"Did anyone have the flu in December/January?"

I didn't have the flu but I had a very rare (for me) tough to break cold.  I just couldn't shake it easily and hadn't even had a common cold in a few years.  Mucus in my throat and nose for 2 full weeks and just stuffy and tired.  That was the last week of January first week of February right when the news started about this.  I never had a fever so I never was really concerned and went about my life and work as normal although I clearly had some sort of infection with the large amount of mucus. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 12, 2020, 12:53:03 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 11, 2020, 07:00:55 PM

Almost thought of making a separate thread for....

"Did anyone have the flu in December/January?"

Well, I did sorta got sick last week.  Didn't think it was Coronavirus.  More like standing outside for three hours in sub 50 degree weather in Washington for two concerts will do me in like that.  Had a scratchy throat and some congestion, but I'm on the up and up now.  Thankfully, I was able to get home before things really hit the floor in terms of flight.  Loaded up on vegetarian soups and yogurt because they were on sale at my local Vons so I'm good to go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:56:38 AM

Since I'm at work on standby for a major project, I made myself a grocery list to go pick up in case I have to stay home for awhile.  After the way things have escalated, I wouldn't be surprised if things are shut down soon and I might as well pick up things before I potentially get sick.  Luckily as a single dude, there's not much I need but I guess it's time to join all the rest of the folks doing the same. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 02:22:42 AM

Indeed, it's time to follow Mike from Breaking Bad's iconic advice to Walter White, at the end of season 3:

No more half measures.

The spreading of this virus is a psychological test on how fast our society can react to things that seem so unreal. The spanish flu, the World Wars, they all seem in the past and we have a hard time accepting that such things happen again.

We in Italy / Europe have all been through that. A couple of weeks ago, people were whining that we were all in a mass panic for something slightly more serious than the flu, that we couldn't stop living and blablabla; now people are pissed at the government for not having shut down all factories and companies.

Everything else is, however; bars, restaurants, all is closed. Only supermarkets are remaining open.
My company finally organized smart working - we're in a "get ready to get in the bunker" mode here, today we'll close early and take the computers and bring them back home. And that will be it for me, no more going out for the rest of the month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 12, 2020, 06:16:58 AM

Confirmed cases now up to 109, of which 17 were just announced in my neck of the woods. They're part of the same group of 30 people who returned from Austrian Alps.

Finland just recommended cancellation of all gatherings of 500 people and over until the end of May. It's up to local officials to put this recommendation to practice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 12, 2020, 06:20:26 AM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 12, 2020, 12:53:03 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 11, 2020, 07:00:55 PM

Almost thought of making a separate thread for....

"Did anyone have the flu in December/January?"

Well, I did sorta got sick last week.  Didn't think it was Coronavirus.  More like standing outside for three hours in sub 50 degree weather in Washington for two concerts will do me in like that.  Had a scratchy throat and some congestion, but I'm on the up and up now.  Thankfully, I was able to get home before things really hit the floor in terms of flight.  Loaded up on vegetarian soups and yogurt because they were on sale at my local Vons so I'm good to go.

Cold air doesn't make anyone sick.  Germs make you sick - you probably picked up a germ at the concerts.  Changes in temperature can have some affect your immune system though, making you slightly more susceptible to getting sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 12, 2020, 06:35:43 AM

Remember me mentioning I'm afraid for my mom? Well, the situation in Norway has escalated so much, I now don't know if I should get on my Sat flight to Serbia or not. Never thought I'd be the problem in that situation.  :sadpanda:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 12, 2020, 07:24:25 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 02:22:42 AM

Indeed, it's time to follow Mike from Breaking Bad's iconic advice to Walter White, at the end of season 3:

No more half measures.

The spreading of this virus is a psychological test on how fast our society can react to things that seem so unreal. The spanish flu, the World Wars, they all seem in the past and we have a hard time accepting that such things happen again.

We in Italy / Europe have all been through that. A couple of weeks ago, people were whining that we were all in a mass panic for something slightly more serious than the flu, that we couldn't stop living and blablabla; now people are pissed at the government for not having shut down all factories and companies.

Everything else is, however; bars, restaurants, all is closed. Only supermarkets are remaining open.
My company finally organized smart working - we're in a "get ready to get in the bunker" mode here, today we'll close early and take the computers and bring them back home. And that will be it for me, no more going out for the rest of the month.

I came to a similar conclusion today. I'll be working remotely full time starting tomorrow until everything calms down. Be safe, everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 12, 2020, 07:50:26 AM

I'm going to go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on March 12, 2020, 07:52:47 AM

Coronavirus only has a few cases in Pennsylvania (less than a dozen I think), but I do like one step being taken in the funeral industry. As of now far too many doctors are not part of the electronic death registration system (basically allows them to input cause of death and related info directly to the state), and rely on us faxing them a form, which they fill out, fax back to them, and then send to the state to wait up to two business days for someone there to input the information. But now for timely reporting on any deaths they are required immediately to report COVID related deaths electronically, and must do so prior to releasing a body to us.

This means unlike almost any other illness we'll know about COVID prior to handling or embalming the body. Even though it looks like as with most illnesses the risk to us after death is far more limited than when the person is alive (a vast majority of bacterial and viral pathogens die off soon after the host dies), it's still great to have that info just so we can be extra safe if we find ourselves handling someone with COVID.

As for what may be more practical to you guys, guidance right now says that although there should not be a risk from touching someone at a viewing who died of the disease common sense dictates that we suggest not doing so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 07:56:30 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 12, 2020, 07:50:26 AM

I'm going to go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over.

Don't forget to grab Liz.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on March 12, 2020, 08:13:40 AM

This has been wild. I'm from the US and I've been in Istanbul for an academic conference. I woke up at 4:30am this morning to the hotel room phone. It was my dad telling me I have to come home ASAP because Trump was banning flights from Europe, effective Friday at midnight. My trip home happened to already be scheduled on Friday. I woke up the other Americans in the hotel and we all rushed to the Istanbul airport, because we didn't yet know that the travel ban didn't apply to US citizens, so I was planning on just going home today.

A few of the Americans decided to buy flights home. I decided to hold onto my Friday trip plans, as they do get me home before midnight. I'm hoping that these Friday flights don't get cancelled.

Additionally, my university is switching to virtual teaching for the next week after spring break, and probably for the rest of the semester. I am both a student and a teacher at my university, so I am very curious to see how things will play out. But if I'm trapped in Turkey, I'll still be able to get stuff done and I have a friend to crash with, so I'm OK for now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 12, 2020, 08:33:15 AM

As long as you can stay safe, being trapped in Turkey for a bit might actually end up being kinda cool.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 12, 2020, 08:53:47 AM

Mini-rant time:  As someone calling for a measured, reasonable response to this, I have to say: When you have people like Rudy Gobert intentionally engaging in stupid, irresponsible behavior to make an ill-informed "statement" as he did, I guess the only response is to overreact and lock things down.  Sad to say, I guess people just can't be trusted to act reasonably and responsibly.  Not that the populace as a whole does dumb stuff like that.  But it doesn't take a lot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 09:02:49 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 12, 2020, 08:53:47 AM

Sad to say, I guess people just can't be trusted to act reasonably and responsibly.

Exactly what happened here in Italy.

"So, there's this virus going around, wash your hands often"
"Those goddamn chinese, let's avoid their restaurants and insult them"
"What? no, being chinese has nothing to do with the virus, just wash your hands and warn the authorities if you just came back from China"
"Ok, got it, EFF the chinese!"
"........... anyway, so, there are first cases in Italy, remember to wash your hands and avoid close contact"
"OMG LET ME ASSAULT ALL GROCERIES STORES AT ONCE!"
"What?? no, the stores remain open, don't panic, just wash your hands and maybe start to take into consideration to limit your movements...."
"So I have to avoid my happy hour drink because of a virus? HAHAHA NO WAY"
"So, it's kinda getting dire guys..... maybe we'll close up Lombardy"
"OMG NO LET ME BOARD A TRAIN TO COME BACK HOME IN THE SOUTH"
"What?? no, this way you'll potentially carry the virus in the south, where the sanitary system is not top notch like in the north!"
[24 hours later: all of Italy is made into a quarantined zone]
"OMG LET ME ONCE AGAIN ASSAULT ALL GROCERIES STORES"
"Whaaat? again??? we clearly said that stores would be open, furthermore if you all line up in a gigantic queue outside the store you'll infect each other!!!"

And now we're finally more or less all locked inside, and people are complaining that the government hasn't done enough  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 09:18:29 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 12, 2020, 08:53:47 AM

Mini-rant time:  As someone calling for a measured, reasonable response to this, I have to say: When you have people like Rudy Gobert intentionally engaging in stupid, irresponsible behavior to make an ill-informed "statement" as he did, I guess the only response is to overreact and lock things down.  Sad to say, I guess people just can't be trusted to act reasonably and responsibly.  Not that the populace as a whole does dumb stuff like that.  But it doesn't take a lot.

Guy is an asshate and his actions the other day make him loook so bad.  I wonder how many people he spread this too. 

It is interesting, a Big 10 BBall coach had to leave the game early yesterday because he was sick.  Everywhere I read was PISSED he even attempted to coach, turns out he is sick just not with this virus and as of now the Big 10 BBall tournament continues with empty arenas.  Was definitely thinking the whole thing would be called off today but it seems to be going on and I suspect it will until one person tests positive.  March madness is legit madness this year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 12, 2020, 09:20:36 AM

One of Goberts teammates tested positive. Rumor has it Gobert has been “jokingly” touching everyone’s stuff throughout the locker room. 

Dumbass.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 09:23:46 AM

Literally just read that as well  :facepalm: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28891354/donovan-mitchell-tests-positive-coronavirus (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28891354/donovan-mitchell-tests-positive-coronavirus)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 09:27:07 AM

ATP and MLS just cancelled/suspended their leagues.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 12, 2020, 09:38:23 AM

Quote from: T-ski on March 12, 2020, 09:20:36 AM

One of Goberts teammates tested positive. Rumor has it Gobert has been “jokingly” touching everyone’s stuff throughout the locker room. 

Dumbass.

Here he was thinking he was being funny by touching all of the recording devices of the press people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYC6oQIAzbI

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 12, 2020, 09:45:50 AM

Apparently, a Brazilian politician that met with Trump last week has tested positive for coronavirus. This should be interesting.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/) (I would rather paste the link to the Washington Post but it's paywalled...)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 12, 2020, 09:47:21 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 12, 2020, 09:45:50 AM

Apparently, a Brazilian politician that met with Trump last week has tested positive for coronavirus. This should be interesting.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/) (I would rather paste the link to the Washington Post but it's paywalled...)

No wonder he sounded so scared/sick last night.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 09:48:20 AM

And Trump refuses to be tested even though he kind of looked/spoke a bit like a sick person last night.  Wasn't sure if it was just the situation itself, but his voice and the way he was talking seemed really off to me.

And just now the Big 10 cancelled the tournament.  Wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA tournament is now cancelled too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2020, 09:53:32 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 12, 2020, 09:47:21 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 12, 2020, 09:45:50 AM

Apparently, a Brazilian politician that met with Trump last week has tested positive for coronavirus. This should be interesting.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/) (I would rather paste the link to the Washington Post but it's paywalled...)

No wonder he sounded so scared/sick last night.

"Believe me....nobody has had the virus like me.....my corona's are way bigger....much bigger, like three times the size of other virus's......and there are many many more of them.....much more than most people....."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 12, 2020, 10:03:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 09:48:20 AM

And Trump refuses to be tested even though he kind of looked/spoke a bit like a sick person last night.  Wasn't sure if it was just the situation itself, but his voice and the way he was talking seemed really off to me.

And just now the Big 10 cancelled the tournament.  Wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA tournament is now cancelled too.

That sucks.  Illinois has been so good this year.  4th in the Big Ten - they were poised to do well in the tournament and likely get a decent slot in the national tournament. 

If the big tournament isn't cancelled, I wonder how they'll select teams, since conference tournaments provided automatic berths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 12, 2020, 10:05:44 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2020, 09:53:32 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 12, 2020, 09:47:21 AM

Quote from: Nekov on March 12, 2020, 09:45:50 AM

Apparently, a Brazilian politician that met with Trump last week has tested positive for coronavirus. This should be interesting.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/brazilian-spokesperson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-he-meets-with-trump-and-pence-at-mar-a-lago/) (I would rather paste the link to the Washington Post but it's paywalled...)

No wonder he sounded so scared/sick last night.

"Believe me....nobody has had the virus like me.....my corona's are way bigger....much bigger, like three times the size of other virus's......and there are many many more of them.....much more than most people....."

"My white blood cell count is bigger than any man, woman, or child's in history. I have so many, my doctors, they say, Trump! How is this possible? How is it? You have so many, your white blood cell count, it's off the charts. I never get sick! When was I last sick? You know the Chinese, they get sick all the time, you know how it is, they eat the thing, and they get sick, and they do the cough, the cough, it's so bad, so sick, no hygiene, what a shame."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 10:07:14 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 12, 2020, 10:03:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 09:48:20 AM

And Trump refuses to be tested even though he kind of looked/spoke a bit like a sick person last night.  Wasn't sure if it was just the situation itself, but his voice and the way he was talking seemed really off to me.

And just now the Big 10 cancelled the tournament.  Wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA tournament is now cancelled too.

That sucks.  Illinois has been so good this year.  4th in the Big Ten - they were poised to do well in the tournament and likely get a decent slow in the national tournament. 

If the big tournament isn't cancelled, I wonder how they'll select teams, since conference tournaments provided automatic berths.

This was the best PSU team I've ever seen and our star senior player is only 20 or so points from breaking the all time PSU scoring record.  He won't even get the chance now.  I'm almost guaranteeing the NCAA tournament is cancelled too since the Big 10 is really tied into the big fellas who run the NCAA.  Really really sucks.  It seems appropriate but what a blow to all those teams and fans.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 12, 2020, 10:07:36 AM

:lol  I can't help but read both of those posts in Trump's voice in my head, and it sounds so legit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 12, 2020, 10:08:41 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 12, 2020, 10:07:36 AM

:lol  I can't help but read both of those posts in Trump's voice in my head, and it sounds so legit.

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2020, 10:09:05 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 12, 2020, 10:07:36 AM

:lol  I can't help but read both of those posts in Trump's voice in my head, and it sounds so legit.

It's about 95% there. They, sadly, are a bit too coherent and well organized to seem totally legit, it's damn close.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 12, 2020, 10:09:27 AM

He sounded miserable last night. I guess after calling it a democratic hoax for the last two weeks, it must have really sucked to have had to talk about things like travel bans and dirty socialist medical care to help stop the spread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 12, 2020, 10:10:54 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 12, 2020, 10:09:27 AM

He sounded miserable last night. I guess after calling it a democratic hoax for the last two weeks, it must have really sucked to have had to talk about things like travel bans and dirty socialist medical care to help stop the spread.

It's okay, he's back on his usual BS now. Just check Twitter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2020, 10:20:35 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 12, 2020, 10:05:44 AM

"My white blood cell count is bigger than any man, woman, or child's in history. I have so many, my doctors, they say, Trump! How is this possible? How is it? You have so many, your white blood cell count, it's off the charts. I never get sick! When was I last sick? You know the Chinese, they get sick all the time, you know how it is, they eat the thing, and they get sick, and they do the cough, the cough, it's so bad, so sick, no hygiene, what a shame."

 :rollin

Good Lord this could actually be a statement from him   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 12, 2020, 10:33:49 AM

the Worlds Largest Trivia Contest, which is run by the local university, has been postponed.  Its truly the end of days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2020, 10:50:27 AM

I know this...
If Lenny Bruce was still alive, he would not be afraid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2020, 12:35:28 PM

I hear there is now a shortage on leaves. :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more.  I guess that makes the Dragonforce/Unleash the Archers/Visions of Atlantis cancelled next weekend.  Was king of expecting that at this rate.  EVERYTHING is cancelled.  This sucks, but it seems like what needs to happen to slow the spread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2020, 12:48:39 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more.  I guess that makes the Dragonforce/Unleash the Archers/Visions of Atlantis cancelled next weekend.  Was king of expecting that at this rate.  EVERYTHING is cancelled.  This sucks, but it seems like what needs to happen to slow the spread.

I agree its absolutely necessary, but where do you arrive at numbers? Up to 500 is safe? This is so crazy its hard to make any sense of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:51:11 PM

Quote from: Tick on March 12, 2020, 12:48:39 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more.  I guess that makes the Dragonforce/Unleash the Archers/Visions of Atlantis cancelled next weekend.  Was king of expecting that at this rate.  EVERYTHING is cancelled.  This sucks, but it seems like what needs to happen to slow the spread.

I agree its absolutely necessary, but where do you arrive at numbers? Up to 500 is safe? This is so crazy its hard to make any sense of it.

Yea, not sure, maybe that means restaurants/bars aren't closed but essentially any concert or event will be off limits.  I'd imagine this is just a start and if things don't get better in a week or two, (better as in, new cases start to slow) then maybe it gets tighter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on March 12, 2020, 12:52:56 PM

As of yesterday, Oregon has banned events of 250 people or more statewide for four weeks.  It'll be interesting/scary to see how far the economic fallout will go when all of this is said and done.  Not just in Oregon.  Not just the US.  But worldwide.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 12:55:00 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more. 

Should have been 5 or more.

The spreading is like a chain of dominos. There is no way to stop it unless you take away some pieces. 499 people together is a disaster.

Also, for those who like charts and graphics:

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2020, 12:57:42 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more.  I guess that makes the Dragonforce/Unleash the Archers/Visions of Atlantis cancelled next weekend.  Was king of expecting that at this rate.  EVERYTHING is cancelled.  This sucks, but it seems like what needs to happen to slow the spread.

Good opportunity for a Sons of Apollo show.  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 12, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 12, 2020, 12:57:42 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more.  I guess that makes the Dragonforce/Unleash the Archers/Visions of Atlantis cancelled next weekend.  Was king of expecting that at this rate.  EVERYTHING is cancelled.  This sucks, but it seems like what needs to happen to slow the spread.

Good opportunity for a Sons of Apollo show.  ;D

:lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:58:51 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 12:55:00 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more. 

Should have been 5 or more.

The spreading is like a chain of dominos. There is no way to stop it unless you take away some pieces. 499 people together is a disaster.

Also, for those who like charts and graphics:

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

Yea it may not be enough but when you consider nyc. 500 people in close proximity is pretty much anywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 12, 2020, 01:10:52 PM

LiveNation has scrubbed all of its current tours and told the artists to go home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 12, 2020, 01:14:31 PM

Yeah 500 people in NYC is a normal rush hour commute.

Quote from: Adami on March 12, 2020, 12:57:42 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more.

Good opportunity for a Sons of Apollo show.  ;D

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 01:32:23 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 12:55:00 PM

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

Someone shared that with me earlier today.  Some sobering information there:

"With the number of cases in countries like the US, Spain, France, Iran, Germany, Japan or Switzerland, Wuhan was already in lockdown."

"Mitigation requires heavy social distancing. People need to stop hanging out to drop the transmission rate (R), from the R=~2–3 that the virus follows without measures, to below 1, so that it eventually dies out.
These measures require closing companies, shops, mass transit, schools, enforcing lockdowns… The worse your situation, the worse the social distancing. The earlier you impose heavy measures, the less time you need to keep them, the easier it is to identify brewing cases, and the fewer people get infected."

"This is an exponential threat. Every day counts. When you’re delaying by a single day a decision, you’re not contributing to a few cases maybe. There are probably hundreds or thousands of cases in your community already. Every day that there isn’t social distancing, these cases grow exponentially."


Again, I hope history proves all of this wrong, but to the Italians here, they've already experienced it, and France is likely about to follow that pattern.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 01:38:07 PM

We italians (generally speaking of course) passed in a week or so from "geez, I have to go on living, a drink at the pub won't do me harm, I'll be careful to sneeze in my arm and wash my hands profusely" to "the government sucks, they haven't closed all factories and offices yet".

It's hard to accept that a disaster is coming your way, but it has to happen. Someone in the other nations must take the unpopular decision to LOCK THE EFF DOWN EVERYWHERE RIGHT NOW.

It's like any other crisis. Let's say a team of scientists announce that there's a 65-70% chance that a major earthquake will hit San Francisco within three weeks. Who takes the responsibility to act, or not, on that? who accepts the risk to go down in history as the idiot who evacuated a metropolis for nothing, or the idiot who sat and did nothing while San Francisco was reduced to a pile of dust?

The virus stops if everybody, everywhere, at the same time locks themselves at home. Is it possible? no, of course not. But the very next best thing must be achieved soon, everywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 01:43:20 PM

been having a very fruitful yet frustrating conversation with mrs.jingle.  She's firmly in the camp you state in your first sentence.  "There's no cases in <our region of Canada>".  Correction dear, no "known/tested" cases.  I'd be willing to bet a lot that there are infected people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 12, 2020, 01:52:42 PM

I can't afford to take off work, so, I'm part of the problem I suppose. Business can't afford to close, either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2020, 02:07:17 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 12, 2020, 12:57:42 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 12:44:26 PM

NY state bans gatherings of 500 or more.  I guess that makes the Dragonforce/Unleash the Archers/Visions of Atlantis cancelled next weekend.  Was king of expecting that at this rate.  EVERYTHING is cancelled.  This sucks, but it seems like what needs to happen to slow the spread.

Good opportunity for a Sons of Apollo show.  ;D

Are you kidding, 500? that's a whole tour!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Heretic on March 12, 2020, 02:24:54 PM

My university is closed until April 17th, and our local gyms are closing too. As a graduate student who worked on campus, this is leaving me with little to do other than work on my thesis (which having extra time to work on is certainly not a negative) but I imagine cabin fever could be a thing for many in this scenario.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 12, 2020, 02:28:25 PM

Authorities taking action today. Schools: closed. Nurseries: closed. Libraries: closed. Events: cancelled. Sporting events: cancelled. International travel: "not recommended". Cafes, restaurants, pubs, fast food diners etc all need to ensure there's at least 1 meter between guests. Many have decided they can't meet this criteria and are therefore closed. Avoid public transport during rush hours. Avoid social interaction unless absolutely necessary.

That last part is already in the Norwegian DNA, so shouldn't be too much of a problem.  :lol

We had our first Covid-19 death today. An elderly patient admitted in hospital. God knows what went through the doctor's heads when they realised they could not help this person. I guess they'll have to get used to it. :(

Nothing left but to watch Contagion and play Plague Inc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 02:30:36 PM

Next week is March (spring) Break for the school system here.  Ontario just announced that all public schools will be closed for the 2 weeks after the break.  Universities are starting to follow suit.

From the ECDC (EU CDC equivalent):

The EU/EEA and the UK are quickly moving toward a scenario of sustained community transmission of COVID-19. The situation is evolving very quickly and a rapid, proactive and comprehensive approach is essential in order to delay transmission, as containing transmission to local epidemics is no longer considered feasible. A rapid shift from a containment to a mitigation approach is required, as the rapid increase in cases, that is anticipated in the coming days to few weeks may not provide decision makers and hospitals enough time to realise, accept and adapt their response accordingly if not implemented ahead of time. Measures taken at this stage should ultimately aim at protecting the most vulnerable population groups from severe illness and fatal outcome by reducing transmission and reinforcing healthcare systems.

It would appear that today is the inflection point for North American in realizing that mitigation steps need to be extremely aggressive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 12, 2020, 02:41:24 PM

I'm Eastcoast US and the grocery store shelves were very light today, and stuff is starting to shut down or be limited.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 12, 2020, 03:28:16 PM

Travel ban....'except for the UK / Ireland and American citizens.

oy......a couple countries on this list have new cases from those who visited the UK.  And, it's OK to travel from Italy to 'murica if you are 'murican
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Really good leadership by the various conference chairmen to cancel their men's BBall tourneys.  Great respect for what the SEC chairman did and said today.  Meanwhile, the Big East went ahead and played half a game.  D'oh.

State of Maryland is basically shutting down.  I don't agree with quite a bit of what our governor does, but he does show intelligence, common sense and leadership when called upon.  Our county executive shut down and cancelled what he could this morning.  A couple of my organizations had already cancelled upcoming meetings ahead of all this.  It's always good to have confirmation from higher ups in situations like this.

At least there's golf.  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 12, 2020, 03:43:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 02:30:36 PM

Next week is March (spring) Break for the school system here.  Ontario just announced that all public schools will be closed for the 2 weeks after the break.  Universities are starting to follow suit.

This is just me spitballing here, but doesn't it seem like doing the exact opposite would make more sense? Keep everybody in their own schools and localize it, rather than sending them on an extended Spring break and letting kids from every college in the US travel to Florida to get drunk and fuck each other?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 12, 2020, 04:00:30 PM

Just had our first confirmed case at my work (Refinery)  :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2020, 04:04:49 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 12, 2020, 03:43:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 02:30:36 PM

Next week is March (spring) Break for the school system here.  Ontario just announced that all public schools will be closed for the 2 weeks after the break.  Universities are starting to follow suit.

This is just me spitballing here, but doesn't it seem like doing the exact opposite would make more sense? Keep everybody in their own schools and localize it, rather than sending them on an extended Spring break and letting kids from every college in the US travel to Florida to get drunk and fuck each other?

This might sound pessemistic, but sadly it's not. The decisions by schools have nothing to do with keeping people healthy and safe, it's only about liability. If people get sick on their own, who cares? But if they get sick because a school ordered them all into a room together, then the school is at fault. So they're just making sure they're in the clear.

The college I work at cancelled all in person classes and moved them online for the semester but all services are open, including the gym. The gym and so forth are large gatherings of people. But the school didn't require them to attend a gym, therefore not a liability concern.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 12, 2020, 04:16:50 PM

LOL cancelled online classes.  Are they protecting computers from the virus now?   :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2020, 04:25:28 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 12, 2020, 04:16:50 PM

LOL cancelled online classes.  Are they protecting computers from the virus now?   :lol :lol

Typo on my part. Cancelled all classes and moved them online.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 12, 2020, 04:25:42 PM

My state just banned all public gatherings over 100 people except for schools.  Although the universities are all closing or doing only online classes.  And the school districts are beginning to close as well.  And churches are also beginning to talk about closing over the next several Sundays.  All public evenst have been canceled.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 12, 2020, 04:57:02 PM

(https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/coronavirus-panic-shopping-10.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&strip=all)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 04:57:38 PM

Since this came up in the Devin Townsend thread, sharing this here as well:

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 04:56:34 PM

https://www.narcity.com/news/ca/sk/coronavirus-vaccine-made-in-saskatchewan-is-now-in-the-testing-stages (https://www.narcity.com/news/ca/sk/coronavirus-vaccine-made-in-saskatchewan-is-now-in-the-testing-stages)

Quote

While it could take up to a year to complete, CJWW has confirmed with the University of Saskatchewan’s Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization-International Vaccine Centre that the vaccine is now being tested on animals.

As of now, there is no timeline as to when it could be ready for human use.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on March 12, 2020, 06:09:26 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 12, 2020, 04:57:02 PM

(https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/coronavirus-panic-shopping-10.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&strip=all)

Someone punch this guy in the face! >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 06:18:44 PM

I read a rumor of a full NYC quarantine soon.  Trains will stop running and checkpoints at all bridges.  No idea if true, just saw a screenshot from a city employee apparently saying all this.  It actually says to stock pile up and gather cash before ATMs run out.  Absolutely insane if true.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 12, 2020, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on March 12, 2020, 06:09:26 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 12, 2020, 04:57:02 PM

Someone punch this guy in the face! >:(

Zoom in, and you'll see the dude has a purse ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 12, 2020, 06:48:50 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 12, 2020, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on March 12, 2020, 06:09:26 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 12, 2020, 04:57:02 PM

Someone punch this guy in the face! >:(

Zoom in, and you'll see the dude has a purse ;)

Well she’s taking 120 toilet rolls home. Let’s she has a big family and use 3 rolls a week, that’d still last 40 weeks lol

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 06:18:44 PM

I read a rumor of a full NYC quarantine soon.  Trains will stop running and checkpoints at all bridges.  No idea if true, just saw a screenshot from a city employee apparently saying all this.  It actually says to stock pile up and gather cash before ATMs run out.  Absolutely insane if true.

You’re the second person to mention that. I’m starting to believe is true. I grabbed some groceries earlier to last about 3 weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 12, 2020, 06:53:58 PM

(https://i.redd.it/2crvmd1hqzl41.jpg)

(a joke)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2020, 07:15:20 PM

I mentioned people in my town have been confirmed positive and are at the hospital nearby... well one of my best friends who is a cop here and works that hospital for OT shifts shared a screenshot from the chief, the hospital isn't taking anymore patients due to lack of staff as many have now been quarantined themselves. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 12, 2020, 07:22:09 PM

Disneyworld here in FL closing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 12, 2020, 07:33:12 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 12, 2020, 07:22:09 PM

Disneyworld here in FL closing.

Wow!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 08:18:43 PM

I'll just repost what I put in the NBA thread.  According to a TSN basketball analyst, a high ranking NBA executive said "Rudy Gobert is the man that saved America".

Look, what he did (touching mics & recorders, and other players possessions) was complete negligence.  But ...

Whether it was Gobert or someone else, the fact is that the NBA - a multi-billion dollar organization - completely shut down operations in a matter of minutes from the diagnosis.  And now virtually all sports leagues/organizations following suit is an incredibly strong indicator of how serious this needs to be taken.  At a time when our politicians and governments seem hell bent on cluster skull-fucking the response, the sports world - with Gobert's diagnosis being the catalyst - has provided the shock to our social system to properly address this.

Now the rest of US society is taking this with a level of seriousness that it wasn't just 24 hours ago.

Also, DisneyLand is closing (until the end of the month); Disney Cruiseline as well - I heard Carnival is shutting down for 2 months.  Universal Studios park is closing down.  Broadway is suspending performances for a month.

This is (as it should) spreading to all industries and facets of society.  Hunker down folks. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2020, 08:22:47 PM

Not only is Disney closing, but all of it's staff are being paid during the closure. Say what you want about The Mouse, that's a solid move. I'd like to see some of that 1.5 trillion pumped into the market go to make sure small businesses can do the same to save their and their employees asses.





Edit- Just read that Justin Trudeau's wife tested positive, and they both will remain in quarantine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 08:36:22 PM

I've said to a few people today in conversation, businesses seem to have much more of a social conscience nowadays.  10-20 years ago ... hell, even 5 years ago, there would have been mass layoffs already given what's happened to the stock market. (Trading was halted twice this week within the first 15 minutes of trading for triggering the crash 'circuit breakers'.  Prior to this week, it had only been used once (in 1997).  Even 9/11 and the '08 Financial meltdown didn't trigger it.)

I have a feeling that business now have an interest to do as good for their employees as they do for their shareholders.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 12, 2020, 09:07:07 PM

Well, our government just put a ban on events that have over a 100 people for at least until the end of March. I actually appreciate the way out government is communicating clearly and is taking matters very seriously.

Also, I have been ill this week, it is not likely to be Corona. But now according to the guidelines I have to stay at home and I can't work until an official clears me to go to work (which makes sense as I work in a medical environment).




And is it not normal for people to get paid when sonething closes in the US? Over here, if you have a contract with a specified amount of hours (which is common for most professions), your employer is legally obliged to pay that amount as long as the contract holds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 12, 2020, 09:18:52 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 12, 2020, 09:07:07 PM

And is it not normal for people to get paid when sonething closes in the US? Over here, if you have a contract with a specified amount of hours (which is common for most professions), your employer is legally obliged to pay that amount as long as the contract holds.

Depends on the contract, if someone has one. Many industries do not employ workers on a contractual basis. My wife is a teacher, and will get paid despite her school being closed until April 27. I get paid solely based on the hours I work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2020, 09:42:46 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2020, 09:18:52 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 12, 2020, 09:07:07 PM

And is it not normal for people to get paid when sonething closes in the US? Over here, if you have a contract with a specified amount of hours (which is common for most professions), your employer is legally obliged to pay that amount as long as the contract holds.

Depends on the contract, if someone has one. Many industries do not employ workers on a contractual basis. My wife is a teacher, and will get paid despite her school being closed until April 27. I get paid solely based on the hours I work.

Same for me, and for a good deal of Disneyland employees. My nephew is a character actor in LA, he's hourly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 12, 2020, 11:59:31 PM

Anyone else already tired of the phrase "Social distancing?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 02:11:48 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 12, 2020, 08:18:43 PM

I'll just repost what I put in the NBA thread.  According to a TSN basketball analyst, a high ranking NBA executive said "Rudy Gobert is the man that saved America".

Look, what he did (touching mics & recorders, and other players possessions) was complete negligence.  But ...

Whether it was Gobert or someone else, the fact is that the NBA - a multi-billion dollar organization - completely shut down operations in a matter of minutes from the diagnosis.  And now virtually all sports leagues/organizations following suit is an incredibly strong indicator of how serious this needs to be taken.  At a time when our politicians and governments seem hell bent on cluster skull-fucking the response, the sports world - with Gobert's diagnosis being the catalyst - has provided the shock to our social system to properly address this.

I agree with this. As I said, I don't think as a society we're ready to embrace drastric and dramatic changes. Hence my previous "who's gonna take responsibility for evacuating, or not, San Francisco with a 70% chance of a major earthquake". Something needs to happen as a wake up call, and now I kinda wish that some football players had tested positive soon in Italy. Nobody was mentally ready to completely shut down Italy based just on "a severe case of a flu".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 04:58:34 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 12, 2020, 09:07:07 PM

And is it not normal for people to get paid when sonething closes in the US? Over here, if you have a contract with a specified amount of hours (which is common for most professions), your employer is legally obliged to pay that amount as long as the contract holds.

European and US employment laws are VASTLY different.  Things as basic as sick pay, parental leave, vacation entitlement.... all far more in favour of the employee in Europe (and Canada).  The US laws provide virtually no protection for employees.  Most jobs are considered 'at will' - meaning an employer can dismiss an employee for any reason (unless illegal, like discrimination), at any time, with very little (if any) severance. 

As I said though, I see more and more companies with a social conscience, so there may be more instances of some form of pay to hourly employees affected by this.  Or acts of kindness like Paul Love.  As an example, Amazon announced unlimited sick days to hourly employees.   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 04:59:36 AM

Oh, and Sophie Trudeau is a confirmed case.  Wife of Justin Trudeau.

You read that right.  Canada's Prime Minister is now in a 14-day self isolation, and very likely has contracted it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 13, 2020, 05:21:16 AM

This Italian man knows how to keep people away  :lol

(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/Ion3-syui5R-Xo9DgajL4oJOgek=/375x207/smart/filters:quality(70)/arc-anglerfish-syd-prod-nzme.s3.amazonaws.com/public/4KONDOA3UBEGTH4RV3RPU7EQVA.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 13, 2020, 05:26:11 AM

Quote

In light of the extraordinary and evolving COVID-19 situation and the recent public health measures and mandates, the April 3-15, 2020 BattleBots live event will be postponed to a later date.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/396825946ca214206c853305c66ed4eb/tenor.gif?itemid=14305620)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 05:39:01 AM

You know, I think a lot of this is a bit over the top considering the virus isn't that dangerous. But what makes me optimistic about it is that we'll hopefully learn a lot about containing something like this for the next time when it is actually a super dangerous virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 05:53:17 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 05:39:01 AM

You know, I think a lot of this is a bit over the top considering the virus isn't that dangerous. But what makes me optimistic about it is that we'll hopefully learn a lot about containing something like this for the next time when it is actually a super dangerous virus.

I understand that, from a pure statistic point, the virus isn't deadly per se, and there are lot of people who currently have it that are chilling out at home, taking an aspirin and relaxing to regain strength, but if you don't consider dangerous a virus that:

- Spreads easily and doesn't have yet a vaccine
- Effectively kills elder and frail people
- Drives to a collapse the sanitary system (you can only treat so many people at the same time)
- Paralyzes social life everywhere, ruins small businesses and derails the economy

I hope we'll never get a virus that is "super dangerous".

Yes, we all will be alive at the end of this and among those who will tell the tale, there will be countless people who got it, but this is screwing up the entire world and will have major repercussions everywhere.

I truly hope we'll learn something from it, mainly:
- Sanity first, always, any politician who doesn't have the improvement and betterment of the sanitary system in his agenda will be a fool;
- Keeping the precious scientifical and medical knowledge gained from this ordeal;
- Take seriously every future similar menace;
- How to handle better sudden events of crisis, with due time I hope everyone will realize which behaviours were correct (wash your damn hands even after the emergency) and which weren't (hoarding toilet papers).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 06:06:11 AM

Is it still the customary Italian thing to kiss everybody on the cheek? I can see how it spread so rapidly in that country if so. Here in America we just cough real loud on others. 'merica

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 06:10:05 AM

Of course it is - even though you make the gesture, you don't actually kiss - and it is has been specifically suggested to not do it anymore, along with shaking hands.

"Guys, everybody separated at least 1-2 meters, no hugs, no kisses".... welcome to my love life everyone, feel for a bit what it's like  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 06:10:45 AM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 13, 2020, 06:26:29 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 05:39:01 AM

You know, I think a lot of this is a bit over the top considering the virus isn't that dangerous. But what makes me optimistic about it is that we'll hopefully learn a lot about containing something like this for the next time when it is actually a super dangerous virus.

Angela Merkel said in a public statement the other day that their health officials believe 60%-70% of Germans will end up catching this. With a 4ish% mortality rate, that's like 2M people dead. I'd call that dangerous enough to take action.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 13, 2020, 06:30:30 AM

Turns out one of the ten floors in by building may be compromised, so that floor has been instructed to work from home. I don't get that decision. We all use the same elevators, go to the same cafe, use the same doors to enter and exit the building, etc..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 06:50:37 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2020, 11:59:31 PM

Anyone else already tired of the phrase "Social distancing?"

For me, it's "out of an abundance of caution".  I heard that like 12 times on our local news last night.  Every school system, every event, every employer that put more significant measures did so out of "an abundance of caution".   The anchor on our local NBC station is actually a friend of my brother, and so I watch him.  He's a really good anchor in that he's pretty even keel and neutral, but even he gave off a faint whiff of "how many times do I have to say this". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 06:52:03 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 05:39:01 AM

You know, I think a lot of this is a bit over the top considering the virus isn't that dangerous. But what makes me optimistic about it is that we'll hopefully learn a lot about containing something like this for the next time when it is actually a super dangerous virus.

All due respect to lordxizor, it's kinda staggering that there is still this mentality amongst so many.  A little research goes a long way to understanding just how potentially disastrous this could be. 

From one of the links shared yesterday ... when Wuhan thought it had 444 cases on January 22nd, it turns out there were really about 12,000 people infected - 27x more than had been tested/confirmed.  So, if France thinks it has 1,400 cases, it might well have tens of thousands.  If the US thinks it has 1700 as of this morning, the REAL number of infected is quite likely in the 10s of thousands.  And given the fairly likely rumours that the US is not testing appropriately, it could already be in the 100s of thousands.

Transmission rates, incubation period, time to recovery, time to death... all suggest that the "known" cases is grossly understating the number of people actually infected.  And if (when?) the number of infected requiring hospitalization starts to crash healthcare infrastructures, the mortality rate could increase.

Containment is impossible.  Slowing the spread is the only course of action now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 13, 2020, 07:13:45 AM

Local churches are telling Alcoholics Anonymous meetings to go on hold here, my homegroup meetings were canceled for the foreseeable future. Last night we did an online zoom meeting and it seemed to work. (I didn't log in, was dealing with a family emergency)

My cousin does tech work for conferences all over the country, in a week's time he's lost over 50k in business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 07:24:20 AM

FYI, not going to Florida.   But I do have a work trip to the Bay Area in two weeks that does not look like it's going to be cancelled/postponed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 13, 2020, 07:31:52 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 07:24:20 AM

FYI, not going to Florida.   But I do have a work trip to the Bay Area in two weeks that does not look like it's going to be cancelled/postponed.

Awwwww yeah....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 07:53:39 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 07:24:20 AM

FYI, not going to Florida.   But I do have a work trip to the Bay Area in two weeks that does not look like it's going to be cancelled/postponed.

$20 says it will be.  Things are changing so much, so fast from day to day... hell, hour to hour, who knows what's in store over the next two weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 13, 2020, 08:00:09 AM

Been trying to consciously realize how many times I touch my face just to see. It’s kind of remarkable how many times one touches your face. When you hear them suggest limit face touching it seems like such an easy thing to do but it’s so subconscious and so many instances it’s pretty much impossible ‘not’ to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 08:03:25 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 13, 2020, 08:00:09 AM

Been trying to consciously realize how many times I touch my face just to see. It’s kind of remarkable how many times one touches your face. When you hear them suggest limit face touching it seems like such an easy thing to do but it’s so subconscious and so many instances it’s pretty much impossible ‘not’ to do.

Yep, I've been noticing that a lot. I tend to rest my head on a hand a lot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 13, 2020, 08:09:11 AM

I tend to facepalm a lot at work  :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 08:17:41 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 13, 2020, 08:00:09 AM

Been trying to consciously realize how many times I touch my face just to see. It’s kind of remarkable how many times one touches your face. When you hear them suggest limit face touching it seems like such an easy thing to do but it’s so subconscious and so many instances it’s pretty much impossible ‘not’ to do.

Right??!?!?

Also, Masters is postponed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

No idea if I'm just exhausted from working an overnight two nights ago but I've got some mild cold symptoms, stuffy nose and heavy head.  I was told not to come into work today and see how it plays out over the weekend.  I did feel like I was working a bit much the last two weeks and was pretty exhausted come end of day yesteday (worked a 9 hour day Wed, came back in at midnight till 4am and was back Thursday for a full day at 930am), but the mild cold symptoms got me a bit paranoid right now considering how close to home this disease is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2020, 11:59:31 PM

Anyone else already tired of the phrase "Social distancing?"

No, I think it's great.  Distance between me and everyone else is complete absolute bliss.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 13, 2020, 08:00:09 AM

Been trying to consciously realize how many times I touch my face just to see. It’s kind of remarkable how many times one touches your face. When you hear them suggest limit face touching it seems like such an easy thing to do but it’s so subconscious and so many instances it’s pretty much impossible ‘not’ to do.

So true and I'm pretty sure that's why washing hands thoroughly and regularly is the #1 preventative measure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 13, 2020, 08:29:29 AM

3 days ago Brazilian President Bolsonaro calls coronavirus a "fantasy" and today his test results are in.  He's positive for COVID-19

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/13/coronavirus-live-updates-uk-us-australia-italy-europe-school-shutdown-share-markets-sport-events-cancelled-latest-update-news

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 13, 2020, 08:30:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

No idea if I'm just exhausted from working an overnight two nights ago but I've got some mild cold symptoms, stuffy nose and heavy head.  I was told not to come into work today and see how it plays out over the weekend.  I did feel like I was working a bit much the last two weeks and was pretty exhausted come end of day yesteday (worked a 9 hour day Wed, came back in at midnight till 4am and was back Thursday for a full day at 930am), but the mild cold symptoms got me a bit paranoid right now considering how close to home this disease is.

Cram, It might be wise to call you GP to see if they have telediagnostics available and for advise regarding testing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 08:32:20 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

No idea if I'm just exhausted from working an overnight two nights ago but I've got some mild cold symptoms, stuffy nose and heavy head.  I was told not to come into work today and see how it plays out over the weekend.  I did feel like I was working a bit much the last two weeks and was pretty exhausted come end of day yesteday (worked a 9 hour day Wed, came back in at midnight till 4am and was back Thursday for a full day at 930am), but the mild cold symptoms got me a bit paranoid right now considering how close to home this disease is.

Best of wishes! yeah, that's another of the bad thing about this. I'm fine but, as it's usual in this time of the year and while we're about to enter allergy season, I have some VERY MILD sneeze and the rare and occasional cough. Today I had a minor fit and that was it. Each morning I wake I think "cool, I don't have a fever, I feel good.... nice". I'm not paranoid or obsessed about it but a little part of me keeps this in mind. Each day that passes, is a day from 5-11 days ago I didn't get the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 13, 2020, 08:33:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

No idea if I'm just exhausted from working an overnight two nights ago but I've got some mild cold symptoms, stuffy nose and heavy head.  I was told not to come into work today and see how it plays out over the weekend.  I did feel like I was working a bit much the last two weeks and was pretty exhausted come end of day yesteday (worked a 9 hour day Wed, came back in at midnight till 4am and was back Thursday for a full day at 930am), but the mild cold symptoms got me a bit paranoid right now considering how close to home this disease is.

I think it is normal to be anxious if you get symptoms but remember....it could be flu.  It could be a number of other viral illnesses.  It could even be allergies plus the time change and stress taking a toll.  I hope you feel better soon.

(https://i.imgur.com/ddMyO7i.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 13, 2020, 08:35:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

No idea if I'm just exhausted from working an overnight two nights ago but I've got some mild cold symptoms, stuffy nose and heavy head.  I was told not to come into work today and see how it plays out over the weekend.  I did feel like I was working a bit much the last two weeks and was pretty exhausted come end of day yesteday (worked a 9 hour day Wed, came back in at midnight till 4am and was back Thursday for a full day at 930am), but the mild cold symptoms got me a bit paranoid right now considering how close to home this disease is.

From what I've seen, the primary CV symptoms are fever, dry cough and shortness of breath.   Any cold symptoms (nasal congestion, sore throat) are just that, a cold or flu virus.

I'm so over this stuff already.  Tired of the social media driven fear and panicking, tired of announcements from the state and local governments, and even local businesses (hey, we clean and disinfect our restaurant, come on out!).  We're more likely get a flu, cold or stomach bug right now than anything else.

My wife did a regular grocery pickup yesterday.  The store was completely sold out of paper products.  Another store had no bread left on the shelf.  People are shopping and acting like they have to stay home in quarantine for the next 2-3 weeks, which isn't true.  Sure, it's a good idea to limit being out and about, but you can still handle normal activities.  I have felt very comfortable on public transportation and being at work the last 2 days.  Known cases in Illinois/Chicago are 32 as of yesterday, and only one case in my county where I live.  It's not like these germs are everywhere in my area, and over the last two days, new cases reported were 6 and 7, so this isn't spreading rapidly here, yet.

My company is working on a plan to have people work from home, but if things remain calm or steady in Chicago, I don't know if they'll enact it.  Should things change and cases rapidly expand, then that will likely happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 08:47:38 AM

Once we have a better handle on this and can do some post mortem analysis (pun not entirely unintended, but I couldn't find a better term on the fly--sorry), I'll be curious to see whether we have a handle for why things went so downhill in Italy, for example, vs. most of the other places impacted thus far.  Is it, as it appears to many, simply that the heathcare infrastructure was simply not in place to be able to deal with such a rapid influx of patients?  Some other factors?  A combination?  Once we are down the road a bit, and the emotion and kneejerk propensity to exaggerate facts have subsided, we can hopefully learn from this now that folks are focused on it.  I just hope that we actually do, and that we make improvements and implement things that actually help, rather than just moving on once this is no longer in the headlines.  I mean, it's great that when you use words like "pandemic," people pay attention.  But I fear that we pay attention for the wrong reasons.  For many, it's a big scary word that means we should horde essentials and be mean and suspicious of anyone who coughs or is from China.  We don't take the time to realize that, as a little research shows, most of us have already seen and will see several pandemics during our lifetime (depending on how the term is used and which source you are looking at [it varies, according to source and context], we typically have one every 10-35 years), and that the way to handle them is not to freak out, but to understand what they are and act appropriately.  Anyhow...  Just wish I had a "like" button for posts like these:

Quote from: Grappler on March 13, 2020, 08:35:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

No idea if I'm just exhausted from working an overnight two nights ago but I've got some mild cold symptoms, stuffy nose and heavy head.  I was told not to come into work today and see how it plays out over the weekend.  I did feel like I was working a bit much the last two weeks and was pretty exhausted come end of day yesteday (worked a 9 hour day Wed, came back in at midnight till 4am and was back Thursday for a full day at 930am), but the mild cold symptoms got me a bit paranoid right now considering how close to home this disease is.

From what I've seen, the primary CV symptoms are fever, dry cough and shortness of breath.   Any cold symptoms (nasal congestion, sore throat) are just that, a cold or flu virus.

I'm so over this stuff already.  Tired of the social media driven fear and panicking, tired of announcements from the state and local governments, and even local businesses (hey, we clean and disinfect our restaurant, come on out!).  We're more likely get a flu, cold or stomach bug right now than anything else.

My wife did a regular grocery pickup yesterday.  The store was completely sold out of paper products.  Another store had no bread left on the shelf.  People are shopping and acting like they have to stay home in quarantine for the next 2-3 weeks, which isn't true.  Sure, it's a good idea to limit being out and about, but you can still handle normal activities.  I have felt very comfortable on public transportation and being at work the last 2 days.  Known cases in Illinois/Chicago are 32 as of yesterday, and only one case in my county where I live.  It's not like these germs are everywhere in my area, and over the last two days, new cases reported were 6 and 7, so this isn't spreading rapidly here, yet.

My company is working on a plan to have people work from home, but if things remain calm or steady in Chicago, I don't know if they'll enact it.  Should things change and cases rapidly expand, then that will likely happen.

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

:tup

On another note:

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 13, 2020, 08:00:09 AM

Been trying to consciously realize how many times I touch my face just to see. It’s kind of remarkable how many times one touches your face. When you hear them suggest limit face touching it seems like such an easy thing to do but it’s so subconscious and so many instances it’s pretty much impossible ‘not’ to do.

So true and I'm pretty sure that's why washing hands thoroughly and regularly is the #1 preventative measure.

So true!  (on BOTH points)  One thing I have tried to make a habit of doing is, whenever possible, making a habit of putting my hands in my pockets and keeping them there.  It's a bit odd.  But it forces me to NOT absent mindedly touch my face, or touch other surfaces that I don't need to touch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 09:06:03 AM

I'm a pretty patient, pragmatic guy when it comes to this stuff.  Not much panic - though I did cancel the trip to my parents "out of an abundance of caution" - and I don't get too bent with other people's reactions.  But....

The run at the grocery stores makes me laugh and not in a good way.   If you live in a house with electricity and running water, on what theory do you need bottled water?   On what theory do you need a month of paper towels?  If we ever did get to the point of mass quarantine, where do you think all those paper towels are going to go?  You're far better off going into your closet and taking out all those Winger, Warrant and Ratt t-shirts that a) don't fit you and b) you're never going to wear again, and using them as reusable, washable rags.  Else you're going to have a pile of trash in your front yard that will double down on the potential for viral/bacterial impact. 

My news did a piece on the local stores and showed a Costco with an entire wall of shelving bone empty, and I paused the TV and asked my wife: have you EVER been to a Costco that had an entire wall of goods that was the same thing?  What, were these people buying swivel chairs in bulk?   For Pete's sake; the one thing that SHOULD be ran on was the one thing I didn't see in any of the over-flowing carts moving out of the stores:  canned goods.   Everything else is in one form or another, a sign of panic.   (One cart they showed had three bundles of toilet paper and five or six bags of potato chips.  I literally put my head in my hands at that point.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 09:08:43 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 08:47:38 AM

Once we have a better handle on this and can do some post mortem analysis (pun not entirely unintended, but I couldn't find a better term on the fly--sorry), I'll be curious to see whether we have a handle for why things went so downhill in Italy, for example, vs. most of the other places impacted thus far.  Is it, as it appears to many, simply that the heathcare infrastructure was simply not in place to be able to deal with such a rapid influx of patients?  Some other factors?  A combination?

The healthcare infrastructure not being able to handle so many people at the same time it's a consequence, not a cause. If you live in a region where historically there are never ever been tidal waves higher than 10 mt, and you build a wall that tall, the problem with the freak wave which is 15 mt high is not the wall itself, it's just that the wall was thought to never have to protect more than that height.

The difference is all in prevention - the first cases simply slipped away, and with the long incubation period and the fact that many people carry it without even knowing it, by the time the first cases started to pop out, it was already too late. Both the government and the population had to get used to the idea that yes, for a variation of a flu you really have to close everything down.

Imagine if the virus has a precise 24 hours incubation period. Someone's sick? ok, tell us each and every single person you met in the last day. And then find those persons. And ask each and everyone of them where they went, and how many persons they interacted to. And find them as well.

Sounds hard? now multiply that for FOURTEEN DAYS, and you'll realize how once it slips through your hands, you can only do damage control. Those people are already lost, you can only try and work for people 2 weeks from now. Since yesterday, I'm at home working. I'm not safe. I will be sure I haven't caught it only in the next 11-14 days. I might have been infected in the subway a week ago for all I know.

Also Italy has been thorough with the checks, so while yes, the situation is indeed dire here, we had so many cases because we were actively searching for them.  Other nations woke up too late or didn't do nearly all the checks we did, and don't even realize many people are sick just yet.

In a nutshell, the nations that acted better on prevention and containment got fewer cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 09:09:47 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 13, 2020, 08:33:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

No idea if I'm just exhausted from working an overnight two nights ago but I've got some mild cold symptoms, stuffy nose and heavy head.  I was told not to come into work today and see how it plays out over the weekend.  I did feel like I was working a bit much the last two weeks and was pretty exhausted come end of day yesteday (worked a 9 hour day Wed, came back in at midnight till 4am and was back Thursday for a full day at 930am), but the mild cold symptoms got me a bit paranoid right now considering how close to home this disease is.

I think it is normal to be anxious if you get symptoms but remember....it could be flu.  It could be a number of other viral illnesses.  It could even be allergies plus the time change and stress taking a toll.  I hope you feel better soon.

Honestly feel mostly fine, I think I was just fatigued from work and maybe catching a bit of a cold from being so tired this week.  I'm only paranoid because of people having it in my town, I'm not really worried about my own health.  If none of this was happening, I'd be at work right now and going to a concert tonight.  Instead I'm staying home and playing it safe as told by my boss and the general public of not going out if you don't feel fine. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 13, 2020, 09:10:15 AM

While I agree that people shouldn't panic and buy up all the toilet paper, I'm with jingle on this one.  It needs to be taken seriously.  Being suspicious of people from China, or you think are from China, is ridiculous. Staying home as much as possible isn't.  Events are being cancelled, schools are closed, and it's for good reason.  If you can stay home, stay home.  If you can't, you can't.  But just because you have to go to work, doesn't mean you have to go to a concert too, or a party, or even a pub.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 09:11:01 AM

Today, my county ended all School Sports Spring seasons.  Out local sports (Rec and Travel) programs have suspended activities and closed fields for the month of March.

My 10yr olds travel team was planning a BBQ after a practice this Sunday.  They are all pissed and are now throwing a BBQ at someones house almost out of spite.  I politely declined.  No thank you.  Not that I am panicking (I have the normal amount of TP at home), but why not take a couple weeks off and excercise some f-ing caution?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 09:14:22 AM

Quote from: Lethean on March 13, 2020, 09:10:15 AM

If you can stay home, stay home.  If you can't, you can't.  But just because you have to go to work, doesn't mean you have to go to a concert too, or a party, or even a pub.

Yea, I told my boss I could come in but being we have change freezes on Friday and no one is really working today in general, there's no point in me coming in at all other than to get paid (well I was told to use a sick day which we have unlimited of, although I was over 40 hours worked so I did want that OT so that's where this hurts me but it's just not worth it in the big picture).  He was very stern with his decision of not coming in.  I think I was the only person on the east coast coming into work anyway as of this week. I don't think I'm leaving my house this weekend and if I feel fine come Monday morning I expect to be back at work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 09:25:24 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 09:06:03 AM

I'm a pretty patient, pragmatic guy when it comes to this stuff.  Not much panic - though I did cancel the trip to my parents "out of an abundance of caution" - and I don't get too bent with other people's reactions.  But....

The run at the grocery stores makes me laugh and not in a good way.   If you live in a house with electricity and running water, on what theory do you need bottled water?   On what theory do you need a month of paper towels?  If we ever did get to the point of mass quarantine, where do you think all those paper towels are going to go?  You're far better off going into your closet and taking out all those Winger, Warrant and Ratt t-shirts that a) don't fit you and b) you're never going to wear again, and using them as reusable, washable rags.  Else you're going to have a pile of trash in your front yard that will double down on the potential for viral/bacterial impact. 

My news did a piece on the local stores and showed a Costco with an entire wall of shelving bone empty, and I paused the TV and asked my wife: have you EVER been to a Costco that had an entire wall of goods that was the same thing?  What, were these people buying swivel chairs in bulk?   For Pete's sake; the one thing that SHOULD be ran on was the one thing I didn't see in any of the over-flowing carts moving out of the stores:  canned goods.   Everything else is in one form or another, a sign of panic.   (One cart they showed had three bundles of toilet paper and five or six bags of potato chips.  I literally put my head in my hands at that point.)

Yeah, I hear you.  Hence my rice example from the other day.  (And we did find one vendor yesterday that was restocked and was selling 50 lb. bags at a reasonable price.  It was still about a 15-19% markup, but that is far from the blatant price gouging we saw elsewhere where the price was actually a multiple of the normal cost.

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 09:08:43 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 08:47:38 AM

Once we have a better handle on this and can do some post mortem analysis (pun not entirely unintended, but I couldn't find a better term on the fly--sorry), I'll be curious to see whether we have a handle for why things went so downhill in Italy, for example, vs. most of the other places impacted thus far.  Is it, as it appears to many, simply that the heathcare infrastructure was simply not in place to be able to deal with such a rapid influx of patients?  Some other factors?  A combination?

The healthcare infrastructure not being able to handle so many people at the same time it's a consequence, not a cause. If you live in a region where historically there are never ever been tidal waves higher than 10 mt, and you build a wall that tall, the problem with the freak wave which is 15 mt high is not the wall itself, it's just that the wall was thought to never have to protect more than that height.

The difference is all in prevention - the first cases simply slipped away, and with the long incubation period and the fact that many people carry it without even knowing it, by the time the first cases started to pop out, it was already too late. Both the government and the population had to get used to the idea that yes, for a variation of a flu you really have to close everything down.

Imagine if the virus has a precise 24 hours incubation period. Someone's sick? ok, tell us each and every single person you met in the last day. And then find those persons. And ask each and everyone of them where they went, and how many persons they interacted to. And find them as well.

Sounds hard? now multiply that for FOURTEEN DAYS, and you'll realize how once it slips through your hands, you can only do damage control. Those people are already lost, you can only try and work for people 2 weeks from now. Since yesterday, I'm at home working. I'm not safe. I will be sure I haven't caught it only in the next 11-14 days. I might have been infected in the subway a week ago for all I know.

Also Italy has been thorough with the checks, so while yes, the situation is indeed dire here, we had so many cases because we were actively searching for them.  Other nations woke up too late or didn't do nearly all the checks we did, and don't even realize many people are sick just yet.

In a nutshell, the nations that acted better on prevention and containment got fewer cases.

I hear what you are saying, but that's not really what I am asking.  And, not trying to minimize what is going on in the area that has been impacted the hardest, but when extrapolated out over the population as a whole, I'm not sure that it is "dire" on a large scale.  That is surely an accurate description for those directly impacted.  But I am not so sure that, once this is all over, folks will look back at the numbers as a whole and deem it to be significantly more dire than a really bad cold or flu season.  I hope I'm not proven wrong on that.  But that is what most of the medical professionals and infectious disease experts are saying, and those are the opinions that matter the most.  (although, of course, most of them are also right to add that, because this is a new strain, we don't know anything for sure because we cannot know what we do not know)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 13, 2020, 09:30:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 06:52:03 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 05:39:01 AM

You know, I think a lot of this is a bit over the top considering the virus isn't that dangerous. But what makes me optimistic about it is that we'll hopefully learn a lot about containing something like this for the next time when it is actually a super dangerous virus.

All due respect to lordxizor, it's kinda staggering that there is still this mentality amongst so many.  A little research goes a long way to understanding just how potentially disastrous this could be. 

From one of the links shared yesterday ... when Wuhan thought it had 444 cases on January 22nd, it turns out there were really about 12,000 people infected - 27x more than had been tested/confirmed.  So, if France thinks it has 1,400 cases, it might well have tens of thousands.  If the US thinks it has 1700 as of this morning, the REAL number of infected is quite likely in the 10s of thousands.  And given the fairly likely rumours that the US is not testing appropriately, it could already be in the 100s of thousands.

Transmission rates, incubation period, time to recovery, time to death... all suggest that the "known" cases is grossly understating the number of people actually infected.  And if (when?) the number of infected requiring hospitalization starts to crash healthcare infrastructures, the mortality rate could increase.

Containment is impossible.  Slowing the spread is the only course of action now.

Not only that, it is a fact that we just don't know how this virus will develop itself over time. How this was handled can have major long term consequences. For example, it is not out of the question that we will reach a point that we don't only have a yearly cold and flu season, but also a corona one. And while we are used to the former two, they still pose a huge problem and are a massive economical burden almost every year. To add another pathogen to the seasonal list would have major impact on pretty much any industry.

There are indeed  damn good reasons why pretty much every institute with expertise on the matter is ringing the alarm bells, globally. And it never ceases to amaze me how many people pretent to know better than the actual professionals.

Sure, in the end everything may be just fine and all, but the potential risks are really big.

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 04:58:34 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 12, 2020, 09:07:07 PM

And is it not normal for people to get paid when sonething closes in the US? Over here, if you have a contract with a specified amount of hours (which is common for most professions), your employer is legally obliged to pay that amount as long as the contract holds.

European and US employment laws are VASTLY different.  Things as basic as sick pay, parental leave, vacation entitlement.... all far more in favour of the employee in Europe (and Canada).  The US laws provide virtually no protection for employees.  Most jobs are considered 'at will' - meaning an employer can dismiss an employee for any reason (unless illegal, like discrimination), at any time, with very little (if any) severance. 

As I said though, I see more and more companies with a social conscience, so there may be more instances of some form of pay to hourly employees affected by this.  Or acts of kindness like Paul Love.  As an example, Amazon announced unlimited sick days to hourly employees.   :tup

Well, good to hear more companies are getting better at it then. In general we have a lot of safety nets over here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 09:31:09 AM

Y'know, you could scrub the epidermis off both your hands, if someone coughs in a room you're in and they're carrying it and you breathe it in, you're still gonna get it. Ya'll should be washing hands already, not just in flu season, not just when a pandemic breaks out. Hell, honest to god, I'd bet my tax return plenty of people here don't wash their hands after pissing. Guys, fess up already.  :lol  ;)

Maybe it's because I've seen us in the USA careen in the last 20 years from 9/11 to anthrax scares to SARS to swine flu to bird flu to ebola to zika to coronavirus but jeeze Louise folks we will get through this. Crimany.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 09:37:00 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 13, 2020, 09:30:36 AM

For example, it is not out of the question that we will reach a point that we don't only have a yearly cold and flu season, but also a corona one.

Corona viruses are already very prevalent, with a large portion of viruses we call "colds" actually being corona viruses. It just happens that this one manifests itself more as a respiratory thing than the typical nasal congestion from a cold.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 09:38:38 AM

Devin Townsend has self quarantined and says he just has cold symptoms.  I met him last week, maybe he got me sick.  Or maybe I got him sick.   :lol  I would be so honored to get coronavirus from him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 09:41:17 AM

Here in South Florida, I get the Disaster Prepping Craze several times a year due to Hurricanes.  It's not that anyone thinks "we won't get through this", it is more about not taking unnecessary chances, and trying to mitigate damage.
I buy extra water, gas, food...and (before I got impact windows) used to put up shutters.  It is an attempt to protect yourself from damage, and make the recovery easier.
But with the virus, WAY more people will be directly affected by being sick, and WAY more will killed than with a hurricane.  The strains that this could put on the medical and economic infrastructure FAR outsize a hurricane....so why not change behavior a bit, and prepare?  It just makes sense....yes some overdo it, but by making these changes and preparations, we can absolutely decrease the impact this virus has on our society that it would have if we didn't.
So no, I'm not hoarding toilet paper, but yes I can skip a BBQ party this weekend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 09:43:42 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 09:38:38 AM

Devin Townsend has self quarantined and says he just has cold symptoms.  I met him last week, maybe he got me sick.  Or maybe I got him sick.   :lol  I would be so honored to get coronavirus from him.

My daughter and I went to Billie Eilish on Monday, and she touched Bille....she said the same thing!  LOL
I looked at her sternly, then rolled my eyes....then smiled.  I guess I would have been cool with catching a cold from anyone in Judas Priest at her age.  LOL.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 09:45:36 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 13, 2020, 08:35:23 AM

It's not like these germs are everywhere in my area, and over the last two days, new cases reported were 6 and 7, so this isn't spreading rapidly here, yet.

The most powerful point in this statement is the last word.  So far, everything has been "yet".  It wasn't spreading fast in Washington, or NYC, Ireland or <insert wherever>, yet.

Hopefully the measures being enacted help stretch out the current 6-day doubling period that is currently the case.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2020, 09:48:41 AM

The ignorance of people is astounding. It bugs me that people aren't using the correct term Covid-19. Since people are sticking to the broader term, you have people on Social Media posting things, "It has Coronavirus on Lysol." Well, duh. One even says SARS Coronavirus.

I feel, the media caused more cases by instilling fear and worry. You can make yourself sick by worrying too much, it's that uneasiness feeling. All they had to do was say it's a Coronavirus strain, wash your hands, as it effects the elderly and weakened immune systems keep them safe at home. Thats all, and you dont have as big a fear as we do now.

I dont know, There's things im seeing and reading that are really mind opening and there is something more than what we are led to believe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 09:49:08 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 09:41:17 AM

The strains that this could put on the medical and economic infrastructure FAR outsize a hurricane....so why not change behavior a bit, and prepare?  It just makes sense....yes some overdo it, but by making these changes and preparations, we can absolutely decrease the impact this virus has on our society that it would have if we didn't.

Yes, but I think the pushback from some (and I say "some" because some of the pushback is from people who just get cranky and push back on anything that inconviences them [heck, I know I can be guilty of that; and if we're being honest, we should all probably fess up to that]) is that A LOT of what is being done in the name of "precaution" is just irrational and is actually exacerbating problems and creating new ones that are perhaps worse.  In other words, overdoing it can be more than something we just shrug off--it can be a problem unto itself.  I get that the rub is that erring on the side of overdoing it is better than under-reacting or not reacting at all--both of which can be disastrous.  But we just need to be aware that overreacting can create huge problems as well, and that it is helpful to listen to informed voices rather than having knee-jerk reaction to the loudest, most gloom-filled voices.  I hope I'm articulating that well enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 09:49:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 09:45:36 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 13, 2020, 08:35:23 AM

It's not like these germs are everywhere in my area, and over the last two days, new cases reported were 6 and 7, so this isn't spreading rapidly here, yet.

The most powerful point in this statement is the last word.  So far, everything has been "yet".  It wasn't spreading fast in Washington, or NYC, Ireland or <insert wherever>, yet.

Hopefully the measures being enacted help stretch out the current 6-day doubling period that is currently the case.

Yea, the yet is important but also, the testing isn't happening in the US.  There's so many people with real symptoms of this (not like me with just cold) and they aren't being tested.  I'd imagine if we tested like S Korea, you'd see a lot more than new cases of 6 or 7.  Also since 80% of cases are mild or no symptoms, there's lots of people who have it and are spreading it unknowingly.  The risk is the healthy person who is fine spreading it to someone with an underlying illness.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2020, 09:51:07 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 09:49:08 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 09:41:17 AM

The strains that this could put on the medical and economic infrastructure FAR outsize a hurricane....so why not change behavior a bit, and prepare?  It just makes sense....yes some overdo it, but by making these changes and preparations, we can absolutely decrease the impact this virus has on our society that it would have if we didn't.

Yes, but I think the pushback from some (and I say "some" because some of the pushback is from people who just get cranky and push back on anything that inconviences them [heck, I know I can be guilty of that; and if we're being honest, we should all probably fess up to that]) is that A LOT of what is being done in the name of "precaution" is just irrational and is actually exacerbating problems and creating new ones that are perhaps worse.  In other words, overdoing it can be more than something we just shrug off--it can be a problem unto itself.  I get that the rub is that erring on the side of overdoing it is better than under-reacting or not reacting at all--both of which can be disastrous.  But we just need to be aware that overreacting can create huge problems as well, and that it is helpful to listen to informed voices rather than having knee-jerk reaction to the loudest, most gloom-filled voices.  I hope I'm articulating that well enough.

That's our entire state, for only 5 people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 13, 2020, 09:52:17 AM

First of all, I'm proud to announce I'm officially a mechatronic engineer's stepfather. Graduation project discussion and ceremony happened on Skype, so life can go on even on quarantine.

What went wrong in Italy? MirrorMask's analysis is pretty much spotless but I'd like to add a couple of thoughts, or a list of unfortunate circumstances if you want.

1. We watched China going tits up for a whole month on the news and the only thing we could think of was avoiding Chinese people.

2. When the first cases on Italian soil popped up, we sought comfort in the "not in my area" notion. Alas, it appears it's more a matter of time rather than space. Unless you live on Mars, "in my area" is a concept losing meaning by the hour.

3. Social healthcare. We go to the hospital as soon as something's wrong, especially old people. It's already paid for with our taxes.

4. A lot of testing. You can't find what you don't search for.

5. Social Distancing? Good luck with that in Italy.

6. Lack of immediate political leadership. A lot, and I mean a lot, of lobbies pushed and pulled for their interests before government was forced to admit this was an emergency well beyond individual priorities.

7. At least ten years of brutal cuts to the health budget.


What we have been lucky about is the lack of an interregnum between a "we advise to stay home" and the "the law says to stay home" phase. That's why I can really sympathise with the frustration a lot of you are showing. I would have never accepted to stop working or going out without being forced by the government. It's difficult to accept huge sacrifices without an immediate personal threat unless they're mandatory.

Said that, be well Cram. It's probably only fatigue and a bit of events-induced worry. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 09:56:39 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 09:49:08 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 09:41:17 AM

The strains that this could put on the medical and economic infrastructure FAR outsize a hurricane....so why not change behavior a bit, and prepare?  It just makes sense....yes some overdo it, but by making these changes and preparations, we can absolutely decrease the impact this virus has on our society that it would have if we didn't.

Yes, but I think the pushback from some (and I say "some" because some of the pushback is from people who just get cranky and push back on anything that inconviences them [heck, I know I can be guilty of that; and if we're being honest, we should all probably fess up to that]) is that A LOT of what is being done in the name of "precaution" is just irrational and is actually exacerbating problems and creating new ones that are perhaps worse.  In other words, overdoing it can be more than something we just shrug off--it can be a problem unto itself.  I get that the rub is that erring on the side of overdoing it is better than under-reacting or not reacting at all--both of which can be disastrous.  But we just need to be aware that overreacting can create huge problems as well, and that it is helpful to listen to informed voices rather than having knee-jerk reaction to the loudest, most gloom-filled voices.  I hope I'm articulating that well enough.

No you are fine, and I agree with you.  I assumed that my post implied that taking proper precautions meant actually taking logical and appropriate actions, in scope and scale. 

I think that a big pushback crowd is just as bad as an overly cautious crowd.  Both are knee-jerk reactions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 13, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2020, 09:51:07 AM

That's our entire state, for only 5 people.

That are currently confirmed. Without broad testing, what does anyone really know. The real number could be much higher, or possibly still five people...but I wouldn't bet on it. Personally, I think the temporary suspension of gatherings, until broad based testing and confirmation is available, is a good idea. We'll see, I suppose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 10:00:40 AM

My church just canceled all meetings and activities world wide for at least the next month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 13, 2020, 10:01:49 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 09:49:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 09:45:36 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 13, 2020, 08:35:23 AM

It's not like these germs are everywhere in my area, and over the last two days, new cases reported were 6 and 7, so this isn't spreading rapidly here, yet.

The most powerful point in this statement is the last word.  So far, everything has been "yet".  It wasn't spreading fast in Washington, or NYC, Ireland or <insert wherever>, yet.

Hopefully the measures being enacted help stretch out the current 6-day doubling period that is currently the case.

Yea, the yet is important but also, the testing isn't happening in the US.  There's so many people with real symptoms of this (not like me with just cold) and they aren't being tested.  I'd imagine if we tested like S Korea, you'd see a lot more than new cases of 6 or 7.  Also since 80% of cases are mild or no symptoms, there's lots of people who have it and are spreading it unknowingly.  The risk is the healthy person who is fine spreading it to someone with an underlying illness.

I agree with all of this, which is why I used the word YET.  Everything could change in a week.  The cases could triple and then triple again, and then I'm going to be a lot more wary about being in public and commuting to work because the virus has spread farther and faster. 

I'm not going to live my life acting like everyone around me has it, and every surface I see is contaminated.  Because that's not true at this point and it would make me crazy.  The copy machine in the office does not have the virus on it.  I'm just treating life as I normally do.  Get up, go to work, go home.  Touch as little as I can while on the train and wash my hands when I get home. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on March 13, 2020, 10:02:43 AM

I really want to put a sign on my crematory that says "100% effective Covid-19 vaccine!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

20,000 have already died from the flu, but the media didn't fearmonger that statistic.

Quote from: Nick on March 13, 2020, 10:02:43 AM

I really want to put a sign on my crematory that says "100% effective Covid-19 vaccine!"

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 10:05:29 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 13, 2020, 09:52:17 AM

First of all, I'm proud to announce I'm officially a mechatronic engineer's stepfather. Graduation project discussion and ceremony happened on Skype, so life can go on even on quarantine.

Congratulations man!  :tup

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 13, 2020, 09:52:17 AM

What we have been lucky about is the lack of an interregnum between a "we advise to stay home" and the "the law says to stay home" phase. That's why I can really sympathise with the frustration a lot of you are showing. I would have never accepted to stop working or going out without being forced by the government. It's difficult to accept huge sacrifices without an immediate personal threat unless they're mandatory.

This is true for all people, and facing every kind of threat threat. Hence my earthquake example of a couple of pages ago. "Hi, mr. Governor of California, we're a team of scientists, we've come to the conclusion that there's a 65-70% chance that within three weeks a hugeass earthquake will happen beneath San Francisco". What's the governor's gonna do? go down in history as the idiot who evacuated a metropolis in fear of an earthquake that never happened, or the criminal who sat with a warning on his desk and did nothing? how many people would willingly leave their home because a bunch of scientists advised so? the opinions in a week would surely change from "geez, I can't stop my life, we've lived with earthquakes threats our entire life" to "how many small shocks there have to be before we're being all evacuated? is the government willing to see San Francisco's population destroyed?".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 10:10:01 AM

It's extremely difficult to predict earthquakes let alone predict them accurately. The premise of that hypothetical is a bit flawed and tbh not really applicable to this situation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2020, 10:10:36 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 13, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2020, 09:51:07 AM

That's our entire state, for only 5 people.

That are currently confirmed. Without broad testing, what does anyone really know. The real number could be much higher, or possibly still five people...but I wouldn't bet on it. Personally, I think the temporary suspension of gatherings, until broad based testing and confirmation is available, is a good idea. We'll see, I suppose.

"The United States is home to the most innovative biotech companies and university research laboratories in the world. That fact should have given our country a huge advantage with respect to detecting and monitoring emerging cases of COVID-19 caused by the new coronavirus outbreak.

Instead, as The New York Times reports in a terrific new article, officials at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) stymied private and academic development of diagnostic tests that might have provided an early warning and a head start on controlling the epidemic that is now spreading across the country."

https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/

Now, that's a big deal to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:12:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

20,000 have already died from the flu, but the media didn't fearmonger that statistic.

Bingo.  And I get why some are pushing back on people making comparisons with the flu--yes, there are key differences.  But the point is to contextualize the numbers, and it is staggering how many simply don't have/understand that context.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 10:14:02 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:12:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

20,000 have already died from the flu, but the media didn't fearmonger that statistic.

Bingo.  And I get why some are pushing back on people making comparisons with the flu--yes, there are key differences.  But the point is to contextualize the numbers, and it is staggering how many simply don't have/understand that context.

+100 to these

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:22:07 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 13, 2020, 10:05:29 AM

This is true for all people, and facing every kind of threat threat. Hence my earthquake example of a couple of pages ago. "Hi, mr. Governor of California, we're a team of scientists, we've come to the conclusion that there's a 65-70% chance that within three weeks a hugeass earthquake will happen beneath San Francisco". What's the governor's gonna do? go down in history as the idiot who evacuated a metropolis in fear of an earthquake that never happened, or the criminal who sat with a warning on his desk and did nothing? how many people would willingly leave their home because a bunch of scientists advised so? the opinions in a week would surely change from "geez, I can't stop my life, we've lived with earthquakes threats our entire life" to "how many small shocks there have to be before we're being all evacuated? is the government willing to see San Francisco's population destroyed?".

I get what you are saying.  But the analogy is flawed.  IF we could predict them with more accuracy, a more apt analogy would be:
-Experts:  "We are 60-70% [going with your numbers] certain that a major earthquake will happen on a fault line beneath San Francisco.  We recommend that you take immediate action."
-Governor:  "Wow!  OK, what magnitude earthquake are we talking?"
-Experts:  "Um...why does that matter?"
-Governor:  "Because we have earthquakes in this state literally every hour.  Most of them are too small to even be felt by anything other that equipment that monitors tremors, and most of them do not cause any harm.  [Experts from the California Earthquake Authority that have been eavesdropping on the conversation from across the room uniformly nod in agreement with the governor]"
-Experts:  "Um...probably around 2.0.  Yes, we are 60-70% sure it will be around 2.0.  There is a slight chance it could get up to 2.5.  And a miniscule chance it could get to a 4 or above.  You need to evacuate the city NOW!"
-Governor:  "You need to understand science.  Those numbers are common and are happening right now in proximity to every major city in the state.  That does not justify an evacuation."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 10:25:05 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2020, 10:10:36 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 13, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2020, 09:51:07 AM

That's our entire state, for only 5 people.

That are currently confirmed. Without broad testing, what does anyone really know. The real number could be much higher, or possibly still five people...but I wouldn't bet on it. Personally, I think the temporary suspension of gatherings, until broad based testing and confirmation is available, is a good idea. We'll see, I suppose.

"The United States is home to the most innovative biotech companies and university research laboratories in the world. That fact should have given our country a huge advantage with respect to detecting and monitoring emerging cases of COVID-19 caused by the new coronavirus outbreak.

Instead, as The New York Times reports in a terrific new article, officials at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) stymied private and academic development of diagnostic tests that might have provided an early warning and a head start on controlling the epidemic that is now spreading across the country."

https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/

Now, that's a big deal to me.

Exactly.  I love Reason for their pro free market approach.  Another glaring reminder that government largely just gets in the way when society needs solutions and help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 10:26:03 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:12:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

20,000 have already died from the flu, but the media didn't fearmonger that statistic.

Bingo.  And I get why some are pushing back on people making comparisons with the flu--yes, there are key differences.  But the point is to contextualize the numbers, and it is staggering how many simply don't have/understand that context.

True, but then what is the appropriate response?  Coronavirus can easily be seen as killing 20k....maybe even more.
So which is the appropriate response to a virus killing 20k?  Is it the "apathy" like we have to the Flu, or the "panic" like we have with a new strain?
I guess it should be a bit more and less for both.I get there will be more "panic" with a new and unknown virus, as we don't know how bad it might get.
This is nothing new....it happens all the time with new threats, both medical and non.

Perhaps a stronger response to the Flu is needed, and less panic for Coronavirus.  Maybe a stronger reaction/plan to Flu yearly would have us better prepared for the Coronavirus.  IMO 20k being killed by flu being "normal" is just as bad as a "panic" with a very similar virus.

EDIT: and now that I am 50, just recovering from surgery, with an elderly Mom who recently had a stroke....the effects of something like the Flu or Coronavirus, have a bit of a new meaning to me nowadays.  I couldn't give a fuck about the flu in my 20's or 30's.....inconvenience maybe in my 40's.....but now I can see where it could be devastating for some, and I feel that I need to think about others than just myself....hence me taking this a bit more seriously, and actually taking some precautions these past couple years.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 13, 2020, 10:39:09 AM

Should we take some precautions here on DTF for members who get it? Like a surgical mask over their avatar pic or something?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 13, 2020, 10:42:16 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 13, 2020, 10:39:09 AM

Should we take some precautions here on DTF for members who get it? Like a surgical mask over their avatar pic or something?

I've been saying we should quarantine Nick from the rest of the forum for years  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 10:43:04 AM

My hand is in my pocket right now.  Does that help? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:44:45 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 10:26:03 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:12:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

20,000 have already died from the flu, but the media didn't fearmonger that statistic.

Bingo.  And I get why some are pushing back on people making comparisons with the flu--yes, there are key differences.  But the point is to contextualize the numbers, and it is staggering how many simply don't have/understand that context.

True, but then what is the appropriate response?  Coronavirus can easily be seen as killing 20k....maybe even more.
So which is the appropriate response to a virus killing 20k?  Is it the "apathy" like we have to the Flu, or the "panic" like we have with a new strain?
I guess it should be a bit more and less for both.I get there will be more "panic" with a new and unknown virus, as we don't know how bad it might get.
This is nothing new....it happens all the time with new threats, both medical and non.

Perhaps a stronger response to the Flu is needed, and less panic for Coronavirus.  Maybe a stronger reaction/plan to Flu yearly would have us better prepared for the Coronavirus.  IMO 20k being killed by flu being "normal" is just as bad as a "panic" with a very similar virus.

EDIT: and now that I am 50, just recovering from surgery, with an elderly Mom who recently had a stroke....the effects of something like the Flu or Coronavirus, have a bit of a new meaning to me nowadays.  I couldn't give a fuck about the flu in my 20's or 30's.....inconvenience maybe in my 40's.....but now I can see where it could be devastating for some, and I feel that I need to think about others than just myself....hence me taking this a bit more seriously, and actually taking some precautions these past couple years.

I think this article helps to contextualize the numbers.

https://nebraska.tv/news/local/health-officials-the-flu-is-still-the-greatest-threat-to-us


"GRAND ISLAND, Neb. — Local health departments are staying alert of the Coronavirus but they say the flu is still a big concern. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) the flu resulted in millions of illnesses and thousands of deaths annually since 2010.

"Last year, there were 35-million people who had symptoms of flu in the United States, so Influenza or flu as we commonly call it is by far a greater threat to us right now than the Coronavirus," Health Director for the Central District health Department, Teresa Anderson said.

Each season is different for the flu. For the 2019-2020 season, Anderson said people 48 and younger are most affected, even getting to the point they need to be hospitalized. She said the flu season normally begins in Fall but says going into February it's not too late to get a flu vaccination.

"We're still seeing a fair number of flu cases in our community and we're not nearing the end of the season," said Anderson.

Anderson said the flu numbers vary year-to-year depending on the severity of the virus and whether it's a good match with the vaccine. She said there are measures that health officials can do for people to not get sick.

"And a big part of it depends on how we as citizens protect ourselves, so if we have a year where folks are not getting immunized, we're going to see more flu, if we have a community where nobody is washing their hands then you're going to see more viruses in general," said Anderson.

By practicing a few simple rules at home, you can keep your family safe and prevent the flu from spreading.

"What seems to work best is good hand-washing techniques, staying as home when you're sick, covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze and getting enough rest, exercise, eating right, all those things that keep us healthy will help us through this and come out at the other end, healthier," said Anderson.

As for the Coronavirus, Anderson said local health departments in Nebraska are working together to be prepared."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 13, 2020, 10:45:51 AM

What about the psychological effects this is having on people? I am personally feeling such a sense of doom right now and I'm trying to overcome it. I put on a good face around my daughter who is 19 and is a bit freaked out. My wife also seems to be silently dealing with this internally.
I also fear losing my job over this. I work in a local flooring store and my boss has already talked about the thought of closing. She is panicking because a lot of her accounts are schools and no work is being done.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:56:52 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 10:26:03 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:12:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

20,000 have already died from the flu, but the media didn't fearmonger that statistic.

Bingo.  And I get why some are pushing back on people making comparisons with the flu--yes, there are key differences.  But the point is to contextualize the numbers, and it is staggering how many simply don't have/understand that context.

True, but then what is the appropriate response?  Coronavirus can easily be seen as killing 20k....maybe even more.
So which is the appropriate response to a virus killing 20k?  Is it the "apathy" like we have to the Flu, or the "panic" like we have with a new strain?
I guess it should be a bit more and less for both.I get there will be more "panic" with a new and unknown virus, as we don't know how bad it might get.
This is nothing new....it happens all the time with new threats, both medical and non.

Perhaps a stronger response to the Flu is needed, and less panic for Coronavirus.  Maybe a stronger reaction/plan to Flu yearly would have us better prepared for the Coronavirus.  IMO 20k being killed by flu being "normal" is just as bad as a "panic" with a very similar virus.

EDIT: and now that I am 50, just recovering from surgery, with an elderly Mom who recently had a stroke....the effects of something like the Flu or Coronavirus, have a bit of a new meaning to me nowadays.  I couldn't give a fuck about the flu in my 20's or 30's.....inconvenience maybe in my 40's.....but now I can see where it could be devastating for some, and I feel that I need to think about others than just myself....hence me taking this a bit more seriously, and actually taking some precautions these past couple years.

Honestly, there isn't an easy answer.  The article DoubleAgent posted is helpful, IMO.  It should help us ask questions.  It isn't just about "convenience"--the point is that being more conscious of "social distance," more frequent and thorough handwashing, etc., NEED to be more at the forefront of our minds, not just because of COVID-19, but for other strains of related colds and flus, and other illnesses altogether.  And while more drastic measures MAY sometimes be called for, we just need to be careful and contextualize, is all I'm saying.  Please don't think I'm just brushing the situation aside.  I'm not (I am personally involved in decisions being made right now for several organizations I am involved with to shut things down and take other precautions that I think ARE justified).  But the reality is, societies simply canNOT afford to shut down for every potential threat.  It isn't just the economic inconvenience.  Take Tick's post for example:

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 10:45:51 AM

I also fear losing my job over this. I work in a local flooring store and my boss has already talked about the thought of closing. She is panicking because a lot of her accounts are schools and no work is being done.

This isn't simply about convenience, or "oh no! The corporation isn't going to make its profit margins!"  It is about real people suddenly not being able to work.  What is the ripple effect of sudden mass unemployment?  That has far-reaching consequences that ripple out and create more problems, which in turn create more problems.  We just need to be careful, that's all.  It's just not as simple as "This is going to kill us all if the government does not make us all isolate from one another immediately." 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 13, 2020, 10:57:45 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 09:37:00 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 13, 2020, 09:30:36 AM

For example, it is not out of the question that we will reach a point that we don't only have a yearly cold and flu season, but also a corona one.

Corona viruses are already very prevalent, with a large portion of viruses we call "colds" actually being corona viruses. It just happens that this one manifests itself more as a respiratory thing than the typical nasal congestion from a cold.

Yes, you are right. Though corona viruses make up about 12% of the common cold cases (still, that means it is very common).

But I was talking about this strain, which has so many similar properties to the flu that there are concerns variations of it can become a more frequent thing. Especially as more and more people are getting it, which increases risks for mutated forms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 11:00:16 AM

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 10:45:51 AM

What about the psychological effects is having on people? I am personally feeling such a sense of doom right now and I'm trying to overcome it. I put on a good face around my daughter who is 19 and is a bit freaked out. My wife also seems to be silently dealing with this internally.
I also fear losing my job over this. I work in a local flooring store and my boss has already talked about the thought of closing. She is panicking because a lot of her accounts are schools and no work is being done.

Oh man, that is the pits.  I hope everything turns out alright for you.  I think you bring up a good point about the psychological/emotional impact.  That may very well turn out being worse than the virus itself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:01:04 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:56:52 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 10:26:03 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 10:12:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 13, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 08:46:17 AM

Imagine if we had this much paranoia every normal flu season. There's a fine line between concern and paranoia.

20,000 have already died from the flu, but the media didn't fearmonger that statistic.

Bingo.  And I get why some are pushing back on people making comparisons with the flu--yes, there are key differences.  But the point is to contextualize the numbers, and it is staggering how many simply don't have/understand that context.

True, but then what is the appropriate response?  Coronavirus can easily be seen as killing 20k....maybe even more.
So which is the appropriate response to a virus killing 20k?  Is it the "apathy" like we have to the Flu, or the "panic" like we have with a new strain?
I guess it should be a bit more and less for both.I get there will be more "panic" with a new and unknown virus, as we don't know how bad it might get.
This is nothing new....it happens all the time with new threats, both medical and non.

Perhaps a stronger response to the Flu is needed, and less panic for Coronavirus.  Maybe a stronger reaction/plan to Flu yearly would have us better prepared for the Coronavirus.  IMO 20k being killed by flu being "normal" is just as bad as a "panic" with a very similar virus.

EDIT: and now that I am 50, just recovering from surgery, with an elderly Mom who recently had a stroke....the effects of something like the Flu or Coronavirus, have a bit of a new meaning to me nowadays.  I couldn't give a fuck about the flu in my 20's or 30's.....inconvenience maybe in my 40's.....but now I can see where it could be devastating for some, and I feel that I need to think about others than just myself....hence me taking this a bit more seriously, and actually taking some precautions these past couple years.

Honestly, there isn't an easy answer.  The article DoubleAgent posted is helpful, IMO.  It should help us ask questions.  It isn't just about "convenience"--the point is that being more conscious of "social distance," more frequent and thorough handwashing, etc., NEED to be more at the forefront of our minds, not just because of COVID-19, but for other strains of related colds and flus, and other illnesses altogether.  And while more drastic measures MAY sometimes be called for, we just need to be careful and contextualize, is all I'm saying.  Please don't think I'm just brushing the situation aside.  I'm not (I am personally involved in decisions being made right now for several organizations I am involved with to shut things down and take other precautions that I think ARE justified).  But the reality is, societies simply canNOT afford to shut down for every potential threat.  It isn't just the economic inconvenience.  Take Tick's post for example:

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 10:45:51 AM

I also fear losing my job over this. I work in a local flooring store and my boss has already talked about the thought of closing. She is panicking because a lot of her accounts are schools and no work is being done.

This isn't simply about convenience, or "oh no! The corporation isn't going to make its profit margins!"  It is about real people suddenly not being able to work.  What is the ripple effect of sudden mass unemployment?  That has far-reaching consequences that ripple out and create more problems, which in turn create more problems.  We just need to be careful, that's all.  It's just not as simple as "This is going to kill us all if the government does not make us all isolate from one another immediately."

We really are in agreement.  More attention to appropriate behaviors for Flu, better preparation and response by Govt, and less panic now seem to be the logical response.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 11:03:28 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:01:04 AM

We really are in agreement. 

Yeah, I mean it's often really hard to figure out somebody's tone in a written response, but I'm more just discussing and talking out my own thoughts than disagreeing with what you are saying at this point.  And it is helping crystalize my own thoughts on the matter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:31:42 AM

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 10:45:51 AM

What about the psychological effects is having on people? I am personally feeling such a sense of doom right now and I'm trying to overcome it. I put on a good face around my daughter who is 19 and is a bit freaked out. My wife also seems to be silently dealing with this internally.
I also fear losing my job over this. I work in a local flooring store and my boss has already talked about the thought of closing. She is panicking because a lot of her accounts are schools and no work is being done.

Hey man, stay frosty.  I lost not only my job a few years ago, but my entire career.  I panicked when even a furniture store wouldn’t hire me cause I was overqualified.  I ended up waiting tables at fucking Cheesecake Factory until I started an entry level cold-calling gig in a new industry.  Nothing is scarier than not being able to support your Family.  I get it 100%.
But you need to stay cool, and be frosty so you can react appropriately if something happens.... cause it Hasn’t yet.... just in your head.  This will not last, schools will not stay closed forever.  But if you do lose your job, you CANT lose your head.  You will survive.
I have been through what you are only fearing, and it sucks, but it won’t kill you bro.  Stay frosty and PM me if you need to talk.  I know we disagree a lot here, but I don’t ever want anyone i know, even on a message board, to feel what I felt.  The panic and hopelessness.  So we can chat anytime if you need some perspective........(Perspective helps: When I was feeling at the bottom, I had coffee with a Father whose two kids my wife taught at school, and he is pretty connected in the area....was hoping for maybe a lead on a job, and I started to unload with my sense of hopelessness....and he says, "yeah, I get it man...last night my kids came in crying, and I just didn't know what to say"....and I then remebered his wife fucking recently died from brain cancer.  Fuck Me.  Instantly realized he would likely trade placed with me in an instant.  The guy is LOADED but lost his wife.  PERSPECTIVE.  I buckled down and started waiting fucking tables at 46 yrs old to support my family.  Things are WAY better now.  Got a great new career.).....  just stay frosty, for you And your Fam.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:39:14 AM

Eric, would you suggest that he stay frosty?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 11:42:07 AM

Unrelated to my current cold, the company has stated everyone work from home effective Monday unless you need to be at work -  globally.  My job does require me to be there and I share an office with my coworker.  We just had a team meeting and they want the two of us to rotate so we aren't in the office together starting monday it is him, then I work Tuesday and there goes the rotation with the expectation the other is online and helping as they can from home (aka playing video games and monitoring the work chat).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:46:26 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:39:14 AM

Eric, would you suggest that he stay frosty?

Normally I would laugh at that, except (even though I am pretty sure Tick and I don't get along cyber wise) I can't help but feel empathy for him.
I have felt what he is feeling right now and it is downright scary.  I had someone give me perspective and it helped.  I want to do that for him.  So far his fears are not realized yet, so yes...stay FROSTY.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:46:26 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:39:14 AM

Eric, would you suggest that he stay frosty?

Normally I would laugh at that, except (even though I am pretty sure Tick and I don't get along cyber wise) I can't help but feel empathy for him.
I have felt what he is feeling right now and it is downright scary.  I had someone give me perspective and it helped.  I want to do that for him.  So far his fears are not realized yet, so yes...stay FROSTY.

Oh your advice, while not usually super helpful (though very well intended, and could be helpful) is spot on. I just liked how often you said frosty. Not a word I see or hear often in this context.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:59:42 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:46:26 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:39:14 AM

Eric, would you suggest that he stay frosty?

Normally I would laugh at that, except (even though I am pretty sure Tick and I don't get along cyber wise) I can't help but feel empathy for him.
I have felt what he is feeling right now and it is downright scary.  I had someone give me perspective and it helped.  I want to do that for him.  So far his fears are not realized yet, so yes...stay FROSTY.

Oh your advice, while not usually super helpful (though very well intended, and could be helpful) is spot on. I just liked how often you said frosty. Not a word I see or hear often in this context.

Maybe an 80's reference from Top Gun or maybe Aliens.  It was what that Father said to me.  It means to stay cool, calm, and collected in the face of pants-shitting adversity....and keep a cool outer demeanor because not only are your Family looking at you for strength and guidance, but it will help you recover and find a new opportunity if needed.

And I didn't realize you thought my advice is "not usually super helpful".  I didn't even think I gave much advice here...much less it being not helpful.
 Perhaps I need to re-evaluate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 12:07:21 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:59:42 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:46:26 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:39:14 AM

Eric, would you suggest that he stay frosty?

Normally I would laugh at that, except (even though I am pretty sure Tick and I don't get along cyber wise) I can't help but feel empathy for him.
I have felt what he is feeling right now and it is downright scary.  I had someone give me perspective and it helped.  I want to do that for him.  So far his fears are not realized yet, so yes...stay FROSTY.

Oh your advice, while not usually super helpful (though very well intended, and could be helpful) is spot on. I just liked how often you said frosty. Not a word I see or hear often in this context.

Maybe an 80's reference from Top Gun or something.  It was what that Father said to me.  It means to stay cool, calm, and collected in the face of pants-shitting adversity....and keep a cool outer demeanor because not only are your Family looking at you for strength and guidance, but it will help you recover and find a new opportunity if needed.

And I didn't realize you thought my advice is "not usually super helpful".  I didn't even think I gave much advice here...much less it being not helpful.
 Perhaps I need to re-evaluate.

It's not personal. But, I'll tell you from a ton of experience, if anxiety is high, logic stops mattering. You spoke very logically and were 100% correct. I have no idea how anxious Tick is feeling. If it's reasonably moderate and such, it'll help. If the anxiety is a bit more? Logic tends to just not work as well. Nothing to do with you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 12:15:23 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 12:07:21 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:59:42 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:46:26 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 11:39:14 AM

Eric, would you suggest that he stay frosty?

Normally I would laugh at that, except (even though I am pretty sure Tick and I don't get along cyber wise) I can't help but feel empathy for him.
I have felt what he is feeling right now and it is downright scary.  I had someone give me perspective and it helped.  I want to do that for him.  So far his fears are not realized yet, so yes...stay FROSTY.

Oh your advice, while not usually super helpful (though very well intended, and could be helpful) is spot on. I just liked how often you said frosty. Not a word I see or hear often in this context.

Maybe an 80's reference from Top Gun or something.  It was what that Father said to me.  It means to stay cool, calm, and collected in the face of pants-shitting adversity....and keep a cool outer demeanor because not only are your Family looking at you for strength and guidance, but it will help you recover and find a new opportunity if needed.

And I didn't realize you thought my advice is "not usually super helpful".  I didn't even think I gave much advice here...much less it being not helpful.
 Perhaps I need to re-evaluate.

It's not personal. But, I'll tell you from a ton of experience, if anxiety is high, logic stops mattering. You spoke very logically and were 100% correct. I have no idea how anxious Tick is feeling. If it's reasonably moderate and such, it'll help. If the anxiety is a bit more? Logic tends to just not work as well. Nothing to do with you.

Oh I get that 100%....because I was there and felt it.  I even experienced what Tick is only fearing, and it was brutal.  Sometimes a bit of perspective acts as a small splash of cold water on the face.....even if it is small....and allow the fog of panic to thin just a bit, so some logic can enter.  Even a little perspective can help you stay a little FROSTY, which can help.

I actually LOST my job and career.  That perspective might help Tick.  Just like Someone losing their WIFE helped me gain a bit of perspective when I lost a JOB.
I just felt bad that Tick was feeling some of what I felt.  I can still feel it today.  I use it actually.  When things arent going well, I remember that panic at the pit of my stomach, and I find perspective.  I just felt the need to reach out and offer help to someone feeling that same way.

Anyway, sorry about the derailment....back to the virus that ends humanity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 13, 2020, 12:18:38 PM

Seems to me that the law of averages suggests that a couple of celebrities are going to croak because of this. We can hope for politicians rather than actors and musicians, but I don't think viruses care much for the arts. And the truth is that a whole lot of the people we love and admire on this forum are getting on up in years. It'll be interesting to see how Americans react if Tom Hanks or some such person dies as a result of this. I think it'll really hammer home a respect for these sorts of things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 12:37:42 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 13, 2020, 12:18:38 PM

Seems to me that the law of averages suggests that a couple of celebrities are going to croak because of this. We can hope for politicians rather than actors and musicians, but I don't think viruses care much for the arts. And the truth is that a whole lot of the people we love and admire on this forum are getting on up in years. It'll be interesting to see how Americans react if Tom Hanks or some such person dies as a result of this. I think it'll really hammer home a respect for these sorts of things.

Not if Trump dies and honestly, he seems like he could have it from the people he's interacted with plus him denying taking a test yet others say he did (I heard this on CNN this afternoon).  But otherwise, yea I agree that we will eventually see people known and famous die from this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 13, 2020, 12:46:59 PM

Only a few more minutes before the current occupant goes in front of the cameras and will blame Obama for this mess.  All this in spite of having months to be more proactive, calling it all a hoax, and stating a while back that there were only fifteen affected here, and that the numbers were going down.  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 13, 2020, 12:52:29 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:31:42 AM

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 10:45:51 AM

What about the psychological effects is having on people? I am personally feeling such a sense of doom right now and I'm trying to overcome it. I put on a good face around my daughter who is 19 and is a bit freaked out. My wife also seems to be silently dealing with this internally.
I also fear losing my job over this. I work in a local flooring store and my boss has already talked about the thought of closing. She is panicking because a lot of her accounts are schools and no work is being done.

Hey man, stay frosty.  I lost not only my job a few years ago, but my entire career.  I panicked when even a furniture store wouldn’t hire me cause I was overqualified.  I ended up waiting tables at fucking Cheesecake Factory until I started an entry level cold-calling gig in a new industry.  Nothing is scarier than not being able to support your Family.  I get it 100%.
But you need to stay cool, and be frosty so you can react appropriately if something happens.... cause it Hasn’t yet.... just in your head.  This will not last, schools will not stay closed forever.  But if you do lose your job, you CANT lose your head.  You will survive.
I have been through what you are only fearing, and it sucks, but it won’t kill you bro.  Stay frosty and PM me if you need to talk.  I know we disagree a lot here, but I don’t ever want anyone i know, even on a message board, to feel what I felt.  The panic and hopelessness.  So we can chat anytime if you need some perspective........(Perspective helps: When I was feeling at the bottom, I had coffee with a Father whose two kids my wife taught at school, and he is pretty connected in the area....was hoping for maybe a lead on a job, and I started to unload with my sense of hopelessness....and he says, "yeah, I get it man...last night my kids came in crying, and I just didn't know what to say"....and I then remebered his wife fucking recently died from brain cancer.  Fuck Me.  Instantly realized he would likely trade placed with me in an instant.  The guy is LOADED but lost his wife.  PERSPECTIVE.  I buckled down and started waiting fucking tables at 46 yrs old to support my family.  Things are WAY better now.  Got a great new career.).....  just stay frosty, for you And your Fam.

Eric, I do appreciate this. I keep trying to remember that whatever happens I will overcome it. Its definitely an internal struggle at the moment. Yes, we do tend to go at each other so I appreciate your sincerity.
I will try and stay frosty! ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 12:56:50 PM

 lol

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 12:52:29 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 13, 2020, 11:31:42 AM

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 10:45:51 AM

What about the psychological effects is having on people? I am personally feeling such a sense of doom right now and I'm trying to overcome it. I put on a good face around my daughter who is 19 and is a bit freaked out. My wife also seems to be silently dealing with this internally.
I also fear losing my job over this. I work in a local flooring store and my boss has already talked about the thought of closing. She is panicking because a lot of her accounts are schools and no work is being done.

Hey man, stay frosty.  I lost not only my job a few years ago, but my entire career.  I panicked when even a furniture store wouldn’t hire me cause I was overqualified.  I ended up waiting tables at fucking Cheesecake Factory until I started an entry level cold-calling gig in a new industry.  Nothing is scarier than not being able to support your Family.  I get it 100%.
But you need to stay cool, and be frosty so you can react appropriately if something happens.... cause it Hasn’t yet.... just in your head.  This will not last, schools will not stay closed forever.  But if you do lose your job, you CANT lose your head.  You will survive.
I have been through what you are only fearing, and it sucks, but it won’t kill you bro.  Stay frosty and PM me if you need to talk.  I know we disagree a lot here, but I don’t ever want anyone i know, even on a message board, to feel what I felt.  The panic and hopelessness.  So we can chat anytime if you need some perspective........(Perspective helps: When I was feeling at the bottom, I had coffee with a Father whose two kids my wife taught at school, and he is pretty connected in the area....was hoping for maybe a lead on a job, and I started to unload with my sense of hopelessness....and he says, "yeah, I get it man...last night my kids came in crying, and I just didn't know what to say"....and I then remebered his wife fucking recently died from brain cancer.  Fuck Me.  Instantly realized he would likely trade placed with me in an instant.  The guy is LOADED but lost his wife.  PERSPECTIVE.  I buckled down and started waiting fucking tables at 46 yrs old to support my family.  Things are WAY better now.  Got a great new career.).....  just stay frosty, for you And your Fam.

Eric, I do appreciate this. I keep trying to remember that whatever happens I will overcome it. Its definitely an internal struggle at the moment. Yes, we do tend to go at each other so I appreciate your sincerity.
I will try and stay frosty! ;)

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 13, 2020, 12:58:18 PM

I hope this situation does indeed cause both governments and individuals to make some permanent changes to be better prepared for something like this in the future. 

But for those implying, or just thinking, that this is no big deal and is just like the flu, I have to disagree.  It's more infectious than the flu, and more people die from it or get extremely sick from it.  That doesn't mean the flu is no big deal, and as someone else pointed out, we should be taking that more seriously too. 

But I think there's a reason why events are being cancelled and people are being told to stay home and not gather.  And that reason isn't just panic.  Else we would have done it for other health scares in the past.  People were scared about SARS.  Schools and events didn't shut down across the world. A lot of money is indeed being lost here.  Money that no one wants to lose.  If this was just like the flu, the NBA season would still be happening, for example.  So yes - don't run around declaring that the end is near, but stay home and away from people to the extent you can.  That's not panic - that's good sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 13, 2020, 01:11:10 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 09:06:03 AM

I'm a pretty patient, pragmatic guy when it comes to this stuff.  Not much panic - though I did cancel the trip to my parents "out of an abundance of caution" - and I don't get too bent with other people's reactions.  But....

The run at the grocery stores makes me laugh and not in a good way.   If you live in a house with electricity and running water, on what theory do you need bottled water?   On what theory do you need a month of paper towels?  If we ever did get to the point of mass quarantine, where do you think all those paper towels are going to go?  You're far better off going into your closet and taking out all those Winger, Warrant and Ratt t-shirts that a) don't fit you and b) you're never going to wear again, and using them as reusable, washable rags.  Else you're going to have a pile of trash in your front yard that will double down on the potential for viral/bacterial impact. 

My news did a piece on the local stores and showed a Costco with an entire wall of shelving bone empty, and I paused the TV and asked my wife: have you EVER been to a Costco that had an entire wall of goods that was the same thing?  What, were these people buying swivel chairs in bulk?   For Pete's sake; the one thing that SHOULD be ran on was the one thing I didn't see in any of the over-flowing carts moving out of the stores:  canned goods.   Everything else is in one form or another, a sign of panic.   (One cart they showed had three bundles of toilet paper and five or six bags of potato chips.  I literally put my head in my hands at that point.)

Me and my siblings all chatted and agreed not to go visit our 84 year old Dad so we don't pose a risk to him.  Funny you mention the bottled water thing.  Me and the wife were grocery shopping yesterday and were like... "Do we really need bottled water?"  I mean, we have a few cases always in the garage but what are the odds of the water and electric plants going down?  I would say with a possible mortality rate of less than 2% the odds of that happening are slim.  Back to the grocery store, I was surprised to see just about everything flying off shelves.  Except canned goods... :lol  Which REALLY makes no sense to me. 

So we had our first confirmed case at our refinery and they quarantined the whole crew on that unit,  I think 6 guys total.  They're rolling out contingency plans to deal with reduced staffing to keep the refinery operating.  On the Semi-positive side my company stock is low AF (Lowest I've ever seen) so I'm buyin!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 01:14:45 PM

Well - and I'm earning my iconoclast stripes here for sure - it is panic in the sense that it's a more extreme response in lieu of what should have or could have been more measured responses.   

I've said this before; we're (collective) great at the grand gestures, but we suck at the smaller things.  If more of us did take it seriously, and acted as if we took it seriously, we'd be better off. 

Trump's taking a lot of heat, rightfully, but there are far too many stories - here and across the globe - of citizens that aren't listening to those that are metaphorically yelling over the President.  I'm struck by the woman who didn't feel well, made the call to the local health authorities, was told to act a certain way and refused to listen.  She bullied her way to getting a test, was negative, and thereby denied someone else the chance to have a test that WAS more in line with the protocols.   AS WRONG AS IT IS, we can't really complain about the message coming from the top if we're not going to follow it anyway unless and until it is forced on us by these mass cancellations. 

One thing I heard that I liked:  "We each might want to start acting like we already have it." 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 13, 2020, 01:15:20 PM

*frosty*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 01:18:01 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 01:14:45 PM

One thing I heard that I liked:  "We each might want to start acting like we already have it."

Well, yes and no.  "Yes" in terms of engaging in behaviors that would minimize and almost eliminate the risk of anyone around me getting it.  "No" in terms of, if I actually had it, I would stay home and isolate until given the green light.  But life does not go on hold like that for a hypothetical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 13, 2020, 01:23:37 PM

I just heard on Dr. Oz that 60% of Americans may get this virus. That seems like an alarming number of people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 01:23:37 PM

I just heard on Dr. Oz that 60% of Americans may get this virus. That seems like an alarming number of people.

The numbers we have currently (at least in Murica) can't be close to accurate. The difficulty in getting an actual test is pretty insane. My friend (in LA) has a sister who went to the emergency room for Covid symptoms and they just gave her antibiotics and sent her home, no test or anything. There's a rumor (no idea how accurate it is) that they aren't trying too hard (or at least weren't) to make tests readily available because high numbers would make Trump look bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 01:26:40 PM

From a CNN article

Quote

AMC Theatres announced on Friday that they are proactively reducing the maximum capacity of each of its theaters by at least 50%, according to a press release.

Beginning Saturday through April 30, the movie theater chain will cap ticket sales for each of its theatre’s auditoriums to an amount equal to 50% of the normal seating capacity.

Adam Aron, CEO and President of AMC Theatres, said “with this action, we are facilitating the ‘social distance’ between guests who still want to see movies on a big screen.”

The company is also enhancing its cleaning protocols by cleaning “hightouch” point areas at least once per hour, the company said.

Personally this is like a dream come true for me. Going to a movie theater gives me an ulcer (figuratively speaking). Too bad absolutely NOTHING looks interesting!  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 01:32:58 PM

National Emergency in Murica!

Does this mean every night is purge night?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 13, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 01:23:37 PM

I just heard on Dr. Oz that 60% of Americans may get this virus. That seems like an alarming number of people.

The numbers we have currently (at least in Murica) can't be close to accurate. The difficulty in getting an actual test is pretty insane. My friend (in LA) has a sister who went to the emergency room for Covid symptoms and they just gave her antibiotics and sent her home, no test or anything. There's a rumor (no idea how accurate it is) that they aren't trying too hard (or at least weren't) to make tests readily available because high numbers would make Trump look bad.

Wait what, what healthcare professional gives antibiotics for flu like symptoms?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 01:36:21 PM

EDIT: my mistake, misinterpreted words.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 01:36:45 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 13, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: Tick on March 13, 2020, 01:23:37 PM

I just heard on Dr. Oz that 60% of Americans may get this virus. That seems like an alarming number of people.

The numbers we have currently (at least in Murica) can't be close to accurate. The difficulty in getting an actual test is pretty insane. My friend (in LA) has a sister who went to the emergency room for Covid symptoms and they just gave her antibiotics and sent her home, no test or anything. There's a rumor (no idea how accurate it is) that they aren't trying too hard (or at least weren't) to make tests readily available because high numbers would make Trump look bad.

Wait what, what healthcare professional gives antibiotics for flu like symptoms?

I’m hearing it third hand. So take it with a grain of sea salt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 13, 2020, 01:43:34 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 01:14:45 PM

Well - and I'm earning my iconoclast stripes here for sure - it is panic in the sense that it's a more extreme response in lieu of what should have or could have been more measured responses.   

I've said this before; we're (collective) great at the grand gestures, but we suck at the smaller things.  If more of us did take it seriously, and acted as if we took it seriously, we'd be better off. 

Trump's taking a lot of heat, rightfully, but there are far too many stories - here and across the globe - of citizens that aren't listening to those that are metaphorically yelling over the President.  I'm struck by the woman who didn't feel well, made the call to the local health authorities, was told to act a certain way and refused to listen.  She bullied her way to getting a test, was negative, and thereby denied someone else the chance to have a test that WAS more in line with the protocols.   AS WRONG AS IT IS, we can't really complain about the message coming from the top if we're not going to follow it anyway unless and until it is forced on us by these mass cancellations. 

Yeah... I don't really agree with that.  Because "we" aren't not following.  Lots of individuals are following it, and lots aren't.  If I could snap my fingers and make everyone wash their hands and always sneeze or cough into a tissue, I would.  I don't at all disagree with getting the message out there.  With sharing information and encouraging friends and relatives to practice better hygiene.  But governments and health officials aren't off the hook because some people have bad behavior.  We can't control every single person but maybe we can improve awareness and education.

Quote

One thing I heard that I liked:  "We each might want to start acting like we already have it."

Agreed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 01:45:18 PM

There will be a website for symptom screening. If you meet the criteria you will go go a drive through testing. Watching trump's speech now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 01:47:24 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 01:14:45 PM

Well - and I'm earning my iconoclast stripes here for sure - it is panic in the sense that it's a more extreme response in lieu of what should have or could have been more measured responses.   

I've said this before; we're (collective) great at the grand gestures, but we suck at the smaller things.  If more of us did take it seriously, and acted as if we took it seriously, we'd be better off. 

Correctomundo.  Again, from one of the links shared yesterday:

The worse your situation, the worse the social distancing. The earlier you impose heavy measures, the less time you need to keep them, the easier it is to identify brewing cases, and the fewer people get infected.

As Stads said, if more was done to contain and mitigate earlier, perhaps the extreme steps that Italy had to take wouldn't have been necessary (as both Mirror and Indi have repeated at every chance).  We can only hope that the steps North America is taking is going to be "extreme" enough to adequately slow this down.

However, official US cases are up 333 today, which is 19% increase.  19% gives you a 4 day doubling period.  Not good at all.  It will take at least a week or two before we see if the current measures are making an impact.  THAT is the reason acting quickly and decisively is so important.  It's like cancer.  Once you hit stage 3 or 4, that's a grim outlook.  Catch it at stage 1, and there's a chance.

The fact that someone managed to get it thru Donnie's thick skull ego how serious this is, AND that he had to make that declaration publicly, is rather shocking.

But hey... Influenza is worse.  This is just another run of the mill pandemic, right?

Criminy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 01:51:58 PM

I'm very curious how many people in the US (and worldwide for that matter) actually have it at this point. I suspect the confirmed numbers are way below the actual cases due to most of them being so mild or non-symptomatic that the person doesn't bother to see a doctor. I'd be shocked if even 25% of people were being identified. Has anyone seen any estimates from reliable sources?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: RoeDent on March 13, 2020, 01:56:10 PM

I mean, how does one know they might have it without showing symptoms. I feel like I always feel. I'm not coughing, and I don't feel even remotely feverish right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 02:03:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 01:51:58 PM

I'm very curious how many people in the US (and worldwide for that matter) actually have it at this point. I suspect the confirmed numbers are way below the actual cases due to most of them being so mild or non-symptomatic that the person doesn't bother to see a doctor. I'd be shocked if even 25% of people were being identified. Has anyone seen any estimates from reliable sources?

I'd be surprised if it was 10%.  If the experiences of other regions is an indicator (and is is), when Wuhan was at the point the US was a few days ago, they were underestimating the number of cases by 27x.  Take that with a grain of salt, as you can't trust information coming form China.  It could very well have been much worse.  Think about it this way... if on average it takes 7 days from contraction to a confirmed test result, then todays known/reported cases in the US (2030) are the *actual* cases 7 days ago.  Known/reported cases on March 6th in the US was 282.  14%.  Which suggests there are 15,000 *actual* cases in the US

Best case.

Also, watching this press conference ... Pence is either delusional, surrounded by liars, or a liar himself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 02:07:44 PM

Next time I have a job interview, I'd love to send Pence in my place.  He knows how to kiss ass, there's no doubt about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 02:08:36 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 01:47:24 PM

But hey... Influenza is worse.  This is just another run of the mill pandemic, right?

Criminy.

Can't speak for anyone else here, but that's not what I'm saying at all, but, the snark is appreciated. Keep your wits sharp, Chad.  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 13, 2020, 02:11:28 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 02:03:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 13, 2020, 01:51:58 PM

I'm very curious how many people in the US (and worldwide for that matter) actually have it at this point. I suspect the confirmed numbers are way below the actual cases due to most of them being so mild or non-symptomatic that the person doesn't bother to see a doctor. I'd be shocked if even 25% of people were being identified. Has anyone seen any estimates from reliable sources?

I'd be surprised if it was 10%.  If the experiences of other regions is an indicator (and is is), when Wuhan was at the point the US was a few days ago, they were underestimating the number of cases by 27x.  Take that with a grain of salt, as you can't trust information coming form China.  It could very well have been much worse.  Think about it this way... if on average it takes 7 days from contraction to a confirmed test result, then todays known/reported cases in the US (2030) are the *actual* cases 7 days ago.  Known/reported cases on March 6th in the US was 282.  14%.  Which suggests there are 15,000 *actual* cases in the US

Best case.

Also, watching this press conference ... Pence is either delusional, surrounded by liars, or a liar himself.

"Also, watching this press conference ... Pence is either delusional, surrounded by liars, or a liar himself."
or all three maybe? What do I know. Anyway, schools have been closed in Germany (or will be in the coming days) and people have been advised to stay in unless unavoidable

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on March 13, 2020, 02:14:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 13, 2020, 02:07:44 PM

Next time I have a job interview, I'd love to send Pence in my place.  He knows how to kiss ass, there's no doubt about it.

I wonder if Pence is aware he's being set up to take the fall for this when this whole thing goes to hell.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 02:27:48 PM

For as much as Trump wasn't playing along before, he seems all in on fighting this now.  I like how he has a team of people on display here (minus Pence  :lol )  I'm not entirely sure what else he can do at this point though.  Ramp up the testing and stay home. Putting 50 billion towards this.  I hope it's just not too little too late for the high risk people out there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 02:43:33 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 02:08:36 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 01:47:24 PM

But hey... Influenza is worse.  This is just another run of the mill pandemic, right?

Criminy.

Can't speak for anyone else here, but that's not what I'm saying at all, but, the snark is appreciated. Keep your wits sharp, Chad.  :hat

c'mon dude... like you've never snark'd at anyone here.  I certainly wasn't meaning to make it personal... just pointing out how some don't seem to be taking this with the level of seriousness that it has the potential of becoming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 02:45:32 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 02:43:33 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 02:08:36 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 01:47:24 PM

But hey... Influenza is worse.  This is just another run of the mill pandemic, right?

Criminy.

Can't speak for anyone else here, but that's not what I'm saying at all, but, the snark is appreciated. Keep your wits sharp, Chad.  :hat

c'mon dude... like you've never snark'd at anyone here.  I certainly wasn't meaning to make it personal... just pointing out how some don't seem to be taking this with the level of seriousness that it has the potential of becoming.

I never said I've never snark'd at anyone. But I have clarified my position on this several times and the eye-rolling from the crowd about how people who aren't panicking as much as ya'll and dismissing it as "pfffft not as bad an influenza am I right guys? haha, rolleyes.gif" is grating. I don't have to be mortified and posting grave indicators of the economy to be taken seriously, or do I? I'm not asking for anyone to throw a pie. Be glad this isn't smallpox. With a little perspective, it's easy to see that we will get through this. And with a little perspective, it's easy to see how and why to take precautionary measures against spreading sickness. There is actually middle ground.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 13, 2020, 03:23:18 PM

Beth Cameron  served as the senior director for global health security and biodefense on the White House National Security Council. The job of a White House pandemics office would have been to get ahead: to accelerate the response, empower experts, anticipate failures, and act quickly and transparently to solve problems.

But he eliminated the office in 2018, and then gets snarky when asked about it and says that was the prior administration. 

(one of many Pinocchio moments during that very great, wonderful, terrific, truly magnificent presser today)

Questions:  wonder what Americans are thinking now that there might be a ban flying home due to increased numbers?

Why should some cruise lines be bailed out, when their home addresses are PO boxes in Panama, and they pay little to no taxes here?

Does anyone really believe he doesn't know he shook hands with the aide to the Brazilian president who has C19?

Why did everyone shake his hand or touch the microphone today (except for the smart 'elbow bump' guy)?  Call him 'Donnie Gobert'.  Hell, Lindsey Graham is under self quarantine after visiting with the current occupant, and Ivanka stayed home today as she's been exposed to an Australian official who tested positive.

The most simple question never got answered:  when will tests be made available, and how many?  I loved the 'see your doctor, and they'll put in a request'.  And how long will that take?

So many local and state governments were so far ahead of the curve for things he was taking credit for.  Really, truly, greatly ahead of the curve.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 03:31:01 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 13, 2020, 03:23:18 PM

The most simple question never got answered:  when will tests be made available, and how many? 

He said 5 million tests should be available in a month, but he did stress not everyone should be tested including himself and that's where I disagree.  Sure, not everyone should be tested but if you've been in close contact regardless of having symptoms, I think you should if this is all going to be free.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 03:34:32 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 02:43:33 PM

I certainly wasn't meaning to make it personal...

:lmao:  Wait...and Pence gets called out for stretching the truth? :potkettle:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 13, 2020, 03:36:53 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 03:31:01 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 13, 2020, 03:23:18 PM

The most simple question never got answered:  when will tests be made available, and how many? 

He said 5 million tests should be available in a month, but he did stress not everyone should be tested including himself and that's where I disagree.  Sure, not everyone should be tested but if you've been in close contact regardless of having symptoms, I think you should if this is all going to be free.

It's a tough one for sure.  If I'm in close proximity to someone and am at risk I would sure like to have the test at least available.  Especially with my cardio history and age.  If I don't have the test available It could be to late by the time the symptoms hit.  Like Chad mentioned, it's like the difference between being diagnosed with stage 3/4 or stage 1 cancer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 03:42:56 PM

I guess we just have a different perspective.  I don't for one second believe that simple "precautionary" measures have, or will, suffice.  And I think the people that are a month ahead of NA (MirrorMask and Alex) would concur that extraordinary measures have to be adopted.  Hopefully what has come to be in place over the last 48 hours will do that, along with other measures as well (though, I don't know what those might entail). Drawing comparisons to 9/11, swine flu, ebola and zika (where nothing drastic needed to be undertaken globally) is slightly dismissive of the seriousness of the potential outcomes that could result from COVID.  None of those situations drew even a fraction of the action that is being undertaken to combat COVID.

Quote from: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 03:34:32 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 02:43:33 PM

I certainly wasn't meaning to make it personal...

:lmao:  Wait...and Pence gets called out for stretching the truth? :potkettle:

To be clear, I wasn't intending it to be a personal attack.  Maybe that's the better way of saying it.  Yes, that comment was directed to you/Katt/others that have made seemingly dismissive comments about the seriousness of this.

Perhaps we should just agree that we disagree on how serious this is.  And I'll gladly eat crow in a couple of months.  In fact, I'd much rather that it is me that is eating crow, and not you.

Good news is, the markets thought the actions announced by Donnie were good.  Huge spike in the NYSE to end the day - basically recovered all of yesterday's losses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 13, 2020, 04:23:32 PM

Just announced. All schools in my state will be shut down for the next 2 weeks at the minimum.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 13, 2020, 04:25:26 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 03:31:01 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 13, 2020, 03:23:18 PM

The most simple question never got answered:  when will tests be made available, and how many? 

He said 5 million tests should be available in a month, but he did stress not everyone should be tested including himself and that's where I disagree.  Sure, not everyone should be tested but if you've been in close contact regardless of having symptoms, I think you should if this is all going to be free.

I heard him and the one female official 'try' to answer the question.....but they hemmed and hawwed throughout, pushing the truly great google app and the fantastic flowchart, without ever coming out with an exact number or time frame.  His numbers simply seemed another off the cuff remark.  Basically.....they don't know, do they?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 13, 2020, 04:47:01 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/owuaETg.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 13, 2020, 04:55:39 PM

Work buddy just posted that one of our co-workers left work to go to the hospital.  His wife was beaten and robbed coming out of the grocery store.  Also a friend in Dallas said there was a stabbing at a Sams club I believe over a case of water.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 13, 2020, 04:59:24 PM

That's fucked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 05:00:20 PM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on March 13, 2020, 04:23:32 PM

Just announced. All schools in my state will be shut down for the next 2 weeks at the minimum.

Mine as well.  Do we live in the same state?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 13, 2020, 05:07:21 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 05:00:20 PM

Mine as well.  Do we live in the same state?

PA

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 13, 2020, 05:08:53 PM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on March 13, 2020, 05:07:21 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 05:00:20 PM

Mine as well.  Do we live in the same state?

PA

Yeah, Wife just told me the Grandkids school in Cranberry PA were closed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 05:10:23 PM

Chad... I never compared this to Zika or Ebola. I brought those up for a completely different reason. Please don't mischaracterize that.

Anyway, again... common sense measures... stay healthy, ya'll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 13, 2020, 05:17:51 PM

My kids' schools are closed down for the next two weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 06:04:02 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 05:10:23 PM

Chad... I never compared this to Zika or Ebola. I brought those up for a completely different reason. Please don't mischaracterize that.

Anyway, again... common sense measures... stay healthy, ya'll.

Well, you did specifically cite them (and 2 other infectious outbreaks).  So I wasn't sure how to not interpret that as some level of comparison - maybe not the disease, but the situation.  But, no need to beat a dead horse - we already did it over FB.   It's all good bruddah.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 13, 2020, 06:07:59 PM

We good homie. :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 06:10:58 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 13, 2020, 06:07:59 PM

We good homie. :hug:

I'm not one for drama, but I heard Jingle talking about yo mama.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 13, 2020, 06:18:04 PM

Over here our prime minister had to ask the people to stop hoarding groceries. It really is getting a bit out of hand on that front.

You know what I don't get over here? That the bottled water is sold out. In our entire nation, regular sink water is tested clean and safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 13, 2020, 06:53:18 PM

All schools in WA state closed till April 27.

Went to store just now. Some things were picked through but largely couldn't tell a difference. Certainly not harbinger of the apocalypse. They were out of all kinds of ground meat (beef, turkey) and strangely most of the frozen vegetables were gone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 06:55:18 PM

^ It would seem that some people are 12 Monkeys / The Stand level worried.

Next steps seem underway already ... Our CEO just directed all employees that have travelled recently to return to their origin country, and all international travel is prohibited - including US/Canada.

Prepare for further border closures. And if that extends to commercial goods, that would explain the hoarding.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 13, 2020, 07:03:08 PM

In addition to toilet paper, people are apparently going fucking nuts decimating the water bottle sections in walmart. Why do you need bottled water? Short of complete societal collapse we're not going to lose water and power. Buy canned food, you dummies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2020, 07:08:22 PM

I wonder what sales of Corona are currently.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 07:14:59 PM

Not good.  I tried the corona spiked seltzers last weekend and they were shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 13, 2020, 07:52:09 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 13, 2020, 07:14:59 PM

Not good.  I tried the corona spiked seltzers last weekend and they were shit.

Hopefully you were stocked on TP!  So we went grocery shopping yesterday.  It was crowded but nothing crazy.  A lot of stuff was picked over and I should have bought more I think.  Today the same store, as per a friends report, was a line out the door parking lot 100% full.  Me and the wife are making a list of food staples and are going to hit another market when it opens at 6am.   Only to make sure we have enough staples for a month.  Hopefully it won't be insane.  Unfortunately it's a domino effect with people hoarding.  If I don't stock now... I might be screwed.  I can give a rats ass about paper products and bottled water, but we do need food and I don't want to have to go back to a grocery store hopefully for a couple weeks at least.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2020, 08:14:33 PM

It’s basically the “flatten the curve” chart, but for foodstuffs and supplies. Everyone’s making a run on things, and the inventory is breaking.

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/experiments/usatoday/hospital-beds/flattening-the-curve.png)

Swap ’healthcare care capacity’ with ‘food/household supply inventories’

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on March 13, 2020, 08:15:31 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 07:08:22 PM

I wonder what sales of Corona are currently.

I’ve heard they’re down like 15% or something like that.  The troll in me wants to go to Costco and grab one of the flat bed carts and fill it with Corona and walk it around the store. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 13, 2020, 08:42:51 PM

Quote from: romdrums on March 13, 2020, 08:15:31 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 07:08:22 PM

I wonder what sales of Corona are currently.

I’ve heard they’re down like 15% or something like that.  The troll in me wants to go to Costco and grab one of the flat bed carts and fill it with Corona and walk it around the store.

You should high five everyone you pass, and then immediately hand them a bottle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on March 13, 2020, 08:49:52 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 13, 2020, 08:42:51 PM

Quote from: romdrums on March 13, 2020, 08:15:31 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 13, 2020, 07:08:22 PM

I wonder what sales of Corona are currently.

I’ve heard they’re down like 15% or something like that.  The troll in me wants to go to Costco and grab one of the flat bed carts and fill it with Corona and walk it around the store.

You should high five everyone you pass, and then immediately hand them a bottle.

That’s genius!  I feel like I’d lose my membership though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 13, 2020, 09:40:19 PM

I am going to have to enact some social distancing from my wife if she doesn't stop talking about this virus. She has not talked about another topic for the past 48 hours, every single thing she says is in some way related to this. I don't actually want to talk about it all the freaking time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 11:10:42 PM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on March 13, 2020, 05:07:21 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 13, 2020, 05:00:20 PM

Mine as well.  Do we live in the same state?

PA

UT, I guess not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 14, 2020, 04:18:25 AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8110163/Mexico-wants-close-border-Americans-stop-spread-coronavirus.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus

Quote

Mexico is considering closing its border to stop Americans bringing coronavirus into its country as US case count passes 2,000

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 05:41:39 AM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 14, 2020, 04:18:25 AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8110163/Mexico-wants-close-border-Americans-stop-spread-coronavirus.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus

Quote

Mexico is considering closing its border to stop Americans bringing coronavirus into its country as US case count passes 2,000

Oh, the irony, but it's a 100% completely smart/legitimate move.  Especially with various spring break's rolling out, vacations already booked where people decide still to go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 14, 2020, 05:43:15 AM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 14, 2020, 04:18:25 AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8110163/Mexico-wants-close-border-Americans-stop-spread-coronavirus.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus

Quote

Mexico is considering closing its border to stop Americans bringing coronavirus into its country as US case count passes 2,000

This is just as funny as the climate in Italy - the extremist and xenophobe right is extremely popular, they were making the immigration issue (which is there, it's a problem, just one of the many) a giant catastrophe, people were insulting immigrants because "they could bring diseases".... and eventually it was an italian that brought the Covid-19 to Algeria and another country (Nigeria I believe).

I'm not happy about any of this, but a bit of karmic chuckle is hard to suppress.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 14, 2020, 06:33:40 AM

I can totally see the mindset of Americans who decide to go to Mexico cause the case rate is much lower there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 14, 2020, 07:02:34 AM

Good news from the front, for a change:

In the last two days there have been NO new infections inside the very first two areas quarantined one month ago. It may seem no big deal but, believe me, it's making a huge difference for the local medical personnel (running on fumes' fumes and severely infected) and for us all about accepting our home detention.

Of course, a lot of people are illigally moving south, bringing there the very problem they're thinking they're escaping from.

Still, a little good news is like toilet paper nowadays. Soft, soothing and priceless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 14, 2020, 07:59:57 AM

Thanks for the report, Alex. Excellent news!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 14, 2020, 08:11:05 AM

WI shutting down all K-12 schools thru at least April 5th.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 14, 2020, 08:24:47 AM

My sister's school in Newark is closed for four weeks starting on Monday. I'm working from home full time until it's over. The area around my office doesn't have any reported cases, but I don't trust some dumbass on the train to not bring it with him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 08:48:49 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 14, 2020, 07:02:34 AM

Good news from the front, for a change:

In the last two days there have been NO new infections inside the very first two areas quarantined one month ago. It may seem no big deal but, believe me, it's making a huge difference for the local medical personnel (running on fumes' fumes and severely infected) and for us all about accepting our home detention.

Of course, a lot of people are illigally moving south, bringing there the very problem they're thinking they're escaping from.

Still, a little good news is like toilet paper nowadays. Soft, soothing and priceless.

That is absolutely very encouraging to hear.  Thanks for the update my friend.  Hoping things remain safe for the 'Discipline family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 14, 2020, 09:19:55 AM

Welp....never thought I'd witness that in my life.  Hit the grocery store at 5:45 am, 15 mins from opening.  Already a line of 60 or so people. Shelves were pretty bare with the big items.  No eggs, chicken, bread, canned soup, butter, ground beef.  We picked around and did OK.   We then went to a Sprouts, which is known more for organic and produce.  They were open (15 mins early) and NO ONE was there!  Scored some chicken, eggs, bread and other items.  We are fortunate that it's just the two of us.  I feel for larger families.  Our thoughts were... how soon will there be nothing?  Is that even possible? (Looking at shelves today make me believe it is) How often are they able to re-stock and will those supply lines dwindle?  I would hate to have to go to the store in 1-2 weeks when the fridge is bare and find nothing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 14, 2020, 09:55:25 AM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on March 14, 2020, 09:19:55 AM

Welp....never thought I'd witness that in my life.  Hit the grocery store at 5:45 am, 15 mins from opening.  Already a line of 60 or so people. Shelves were pretty bare with the big items.  No eggs, chicken, bread, canned soup, butter, ground beef.  We picked around and did OK.   We then went to a Sprouts, which is known more for organic and produce.  They were open (15 mins early) and NO ONE was there!  Scored some chicken, eggs, bread and other items.  We are fortunate that it's just the two of us.  I feel for larger families.  Our thoughts were... how soon will there be nothing?  Is that even possible? (Looking at shelves today make me believe it is) How often are they able to re-stock and will those supply lines dwindle?  I would hate to have to go to the store in 1-2 weeks when the fridge is bare and find nothing.

The one thing we do know right now is we have no idea what to expect. Everything currently happening is totally expected. Look how crazy people get when 6 inches of snow is forecasted. The uncertainly of this fuels in the insanity of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 10:29:46 AM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on March 14, 2020, 09:19:55 AM

Welp....never thought I'd witness that in my life.  Hit the grocery store at 5:45 am, 15 mins from opening.  Already a line of 60 or so people. Shelves were pretty bare with the big items.  No eggs, chicken, bread, canned soup, butter, ground beef.  We picked around and did OK.   We then went to a Sprouts, which is known more for organic and produce.  They were open (15 mins early) and NO ONE was there!  Scored some chicken, eggs, bread and other items.  We are fortunate that it's just the two of us.  I feel for larger families.  Our thoughts were... how soon will there be nothing?  Is that even possible? (Looking at shelves today make me believe it is) How often are they able to re-stock and will those supply lines dwindle?  I would hate to have to go to the store in 1-2 weeks when the fridge is bare and find nothing.

I don't believe that society is on a path where the supply chain is going to completely breakdown.  Shelves might be a little lighter than normal until replenishment orders can be delivered.  My guess is that in 7-10 days, things will be back closer to normal.  I mean, (for the most part) in the coming week or so, people won't need to buy much because (most) everyone will have stocked up.  It's just a run on things at the moment in the short term due to FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 14, 2020, 11:01:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 10:29:46 AM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on March 14, 2020, 09:19:55 AM

Welp....never thought I'd witness that in my life.  Hit the grocery store at 5:45 am, 15 mins from opening.  Already a line of 60 or so people. Shelves were pretty bare with the big items.  No eggs, chicken, bread, canned soup, butter, ground beef.  We picked around and did OK.   We then went to a Sprouts, which is known more for organic and produce.  They were open (15 mins early) and NO ONE was there!  Scored some chicken, eggs, bread and other items.  We are fortunate that it's just the two of us.  I feel for larger families.  Our thoughts were... how soon will there be nothing?  Is that even possible? (Looking at shelves today make me believe it is) How often are they able to re-stock and will those supply lines dwindle?  I would hate to have to go to the store in 1-2 weeks when the fridge is bare and find nothing.

I don't believe that society is on a path where the supply chain is going to completely breakdown.  Shelves might be a little lighter than normal until replenishment orders can be delivered.  My guess is that in 7-10 days, things will be back closer to normal.  I mean, (for the most part) in the coming week or so, people won't need to buy much because (most) everyone will have stocked up.  It's just a run on things at the moment in the short term due to FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt).

I hope you're right, Chad.  I THINK you are, we're just being cautious.  Me and the wife shop almost every day normally for what we need for that day or so, and becuase of that we don't have any kind of surplus.  That was my deciding factor in joining the mob.  Just not Knowing when we would be able to resupply.  Plus we want to minimize visits to congested areas like stores.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ozzy554 on March 14, 2020, 12:09:30 PM

I hope people get fully stocked up soon. I work at a grocery store and the last few days have been absurd. It's like I've been working a Sunday before a big snowstorm for 3 days straight. They even offered me a full shift of overtime today which NEVER happens.

I'll tell you man if the world goes tits up all those movies got it wrong. The new currency won't be oil or anything like that, Its going to be Toilet Paper. We've re-stocked and emptied that aisle multiple times now. At walmart they have like 4 employees guarding a full pallet of it and are rationing it out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 12:11:38 PM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on March 14, 2020, 11:01:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 10:29:46 AM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on March 14, 2020, 09:19:55 AM

Welp....never thought I'd witness that in my life.  Hit the grocery store at 5:45 am, 15 mins from opening.  Already a line of 60 or so people. Shelves were pretty bare with the big items.  No eggs, chicken, bread, canned soup, butter, ground beef.  We picked around and did OK.   We then went to a Sprouts, which is known more for organic and produce.  They were open (15 mins early) and NO ONE was there!  Scored some chicken, eggs, bread and other items.  We are fortunate that it's just the two of us.  I feel for larger families.  Our thoughts were... how soon will there be nothing?  Is that even possible? (Looking at shelves today make me believe it is) How often are they able to re-stock and will those supply lines dwindle?  I would hate to have to go to the store in 1-2 weeks when the fridge is bare and find nothing.

I don't believe that society is on a path where the supply chain is going to completely breakdown.  Shelves might be a little lighter than normal until replenishment orders can be delivered.  My guess is that in 7-10 days, things will be back closer to normal.  I mean, (for the most part) in the coming week or so, people won't need to buy much because (most) everyone will have stocked up.  It's just a run on things at the moment in the short term due to FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt).

I hope you're right, Chad.  I THINK you are, we're just being cautious.  Me and the wife shop almost every day normally for what we need for that day or so, and becuase of that we don't have any kind of surplus.  That was my deciding factor in joining the mob.  Just not Knowing when we would be able to resupply.  Plus we want to minimize visits to congested areas like stores.

Totally fair, and perhaps people who shop this way are a good chunk of the 'run' on the stores.  And right now, short of anyone holing themselves up in their 60s style basement / nuclear bunker, I don't think there is anything that is being "overly" cautious.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 14, 2020, 01:23:48 PM

Just realized there hasn't been any word about Wrestlemania. Sounds like the city/county might force the WWE's hand on this one.

At least we have an NCAA men's basketball champion now, thanks Florida state senate for settling this for everyone.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28900639/florida-state-senate-proclaims-florida-state-national-champions

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 14, 2020, 01:36:01 PM

Anyone try ordering any pantry type items from Amazon lately?  My prime membership is putting delivery of staples such as pasta and rice products at April 2nd.  I think that's likely an optimistic delivery window at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 14, 2020, 01:48:31 PM

Anyway, if we all go down in Italy (and we won't  :metal), please remember us like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_rLw6SCSmE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q734VN0N7hw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r357UgH7hU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDRiINXik00

All these are videos of flashmobs from balconies, where peole at pre-determined hours all sing together, be it the national anthem, traditional or famous songs, or rounds of applauses to honor the medics and people working in the hospitals. Generally I find these kind of things a bit sugary, but this is the kind of positive union we need, and a way to let people's creativity not be confined.

Even Captain America retweeted a couple of those  (https://twitter.com/ChrisEvans), it's nice to see the appreciation and encouragement from the world which far outweighs the occasional stupid comments (and stupid actions from other italians, such as the harassing of chinese people or taking trains to the south when the north was being quarantined, effectively risking to bring the virus down there).

It will happen also in every nation, to see bad behaviors and inspiring actions; forget the first and concentrate on the latter!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 14, 2020, 01:53:36 PM

My wife also planned to go out to one of the bigger, "budget" supermarkets in town early this morning right at opening to stock up a bit on some staples.  She called me and asked me to come help her because the crowds were almost Black Friday level, and she was not sure she had the stamina to cope (checkout lines wrapped all the way around the perimeter of the store and took over an hour).  I had suspected something similar, so I was not surprised at the crowd when I got there. 

One thing that hit me was seeing a few elderly folks there, who looked worried, moved slower, and had a bit of trouble getting some things.  So we took a few moments to help out some of them.  So along those lines, the reason I am posting this is to urge folks to take a moment and think about those in your own circles who are elderly, frail, or may have other difficulties.  Check in on them.  See what they need.  Offer to help.  Offer to share what you have, or make a run to the store for them.  Even if they don't need anything, just reaching out and making a gesture of kindness to show you are thinking about them will surely go a long way in giving some comfort.  "Social distancing" does not have to mean being distant.  It's easy to be scared, suspicious, annoyed, impatient, or whatever when things like this happen.  Having to change your routine is never comfortable, and naturally sets people on edge.  Let's take the time to just love each other.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 03:53:51 PM

Along those lines .... https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/grocery-runs-for-seniors-during-coronavirus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 14, 2020, 04:02:10 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 14, 2020, 01:23:48 PM

Just realized there hasn't been any word about Wrestlemania. Sounds like the city/county might force the WWE's hand on this one.

Pretty sure it's a forgone conclusion that any conference or sporting event or organized gathering of 1000+ people will not happen in North America for at least 3-4 weeks.  I'm actually amazed that UFC Fight Night (in Brazil) took place this afternoon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 14, 2020, 04:29:02 PM

Had to stop at the store today after a funeral and couldn't believe it. You hear about the crazy, but you don't believe it until you see it.

No TP, no kleenex, no water, no canned foods, almost no cereal, no lunch meat, no frozen pizza, no hot dogs, and on and on. I have 9 rolls of TP left so this could get interesting if stores don't stock up soon. I need kleenex, but struck out at no less than 3 different stores.

Then I see a story like this that just makes my blood boil:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/17-700-bottles-hand-sanitizer-155735689.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 14, 2020, 04:37:13 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 14, 2020, 04:29:02 PM

Then I see a story like this that just makes my blood boil:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/17-700-bottles-hand-sanitizer-155735689.html

That is ridiculous! Wth is wrong with people  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 14, 2020, 04:42:57 PM

I didn't have much of a big scary story in my grocery shopping.  As I stated before, I loaded up on Soup and Yogurts when it was on sale last week at my local Vons before s*** really hit the fan.  I did need some cough drops just in case so I went to the Target near me today.  I was shocked on how empty certain shelves in certain aisles are.  I went to the area that has cough drops, cold medicine, etc. and the majority of it was empty.  Not surprisingly.  Thankfully, there's still one packet of cough drops left for me to buy so I'm content.  The lines were not as huge as I thought it was going to be.  The lines were only limited to one cashier and like 5-6 self-checkout, but it didn't take long for me to get out.  I'm content for the long run now.

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 14, 2020, 04:37:13 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 14, 2020, 04:29:02 PM

Then I see a story like this that just makes my blood boil:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/17-700-bottles-hand-sanitizer-155735689.html

That is ridiculous! Wth is wrong with people  :facepalm:

People think in light of this scare, they decided to do a get-rich quick scheme to capitalize and profit on people's panic.  The least those guys should do if they are unable to sell hand sanitizes at the ridiculous prices they had in mind is give it to a local charity or something.  That can count as a tax write off, right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 14, 2020, 04:49:30 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 14, 2020, 04:29:02 PM

Had to stop at the store today after a funeral and couldn't believe it. You hear about the crazy, but you don't believe it until you see it.

No TP, no kleenex, no water, no canned foods, almost no cereal, no lunch meat, no frozen pizza, no hot dogs, and on and on. I have 9 rolls of TP left so this could get interesting if stores don't stock up soon. I need kleenex, but struck out at no less than 3 different stores.

Then I see a story like this that just makes my blood boil:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/17-700-bottles-hand-sanitizer-155735689.html

Fuck those people, this is a public safety issue and unlike stuff like toilet paper, there is legitimate high need for items like these.

I hope they are mostly of an alcohol percentage below 60% and thus the useless types (that percentage is required to efficiently destroy the envelope proteins on many viruses, including corona). And that he isn't able to sell them anywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 14, 2020, 04:54:27 PM

The more I read that article, the more upset it got me. This is from the article:

Quote

In early February, as headlines announced the coronavirus’ spread in China, Colvin spotted a chance to capitalize. A nearby liquidation firm was selling 2,000 “pandemic packs,” leftovers from a defunct company. Each came with 50 face masks, four small bottles of hand sanitizer and a thermometer. The price was $5 a pack. Colvin haggled it to $3.50 and bought them all.

He quickly sold all 2,000 of the 50-packs of masks on eBay, pricing them from $40 to $50 each, and sometimes higher. He declined to disclose his profit on the record but said it was substantial.

I get it that in 2020, this is something that people do. We see it with event tickets, new products, videos games, I get it, but it doesn’t make it any less annoying when it happens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 14, 2020, 05:09:26 PM

Took a nap, woke up at 5, waaaay too lazy at this point to even consider cooking, so I went to the Chinese restaurant a couple minutes from home. Never seen it empty at 6 on a Saturday before. The radio wasn't playing music for the first time I've noticed, instead it was loud public announcements about coronavirus :/ But, I have delicious food, so...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 14, 2020, 05:12:07 PM

R.I.P. Kattlecox

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 14, 2020, 05:13:45 PM

Who is Kattlecox?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 14, 2020, 05:17:45 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 14, 2020, 05:12:07 PM

R.I.P. Kattlecox

That's what the ladies call me. :heybaby:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 14, 2020, 05:20:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 14, 2020, 05:17:45 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 14, 2020, 05:12:07 PM

R.I.P. Kattlecox

That's what the ladies call me. :heybaby:

I figured you should go out on a high note.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 14, 2020, 05:22:01 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 14, 2020, 05:20:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 14, 2020, 05:17:45 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 14, 2020, 05:12:07 PM

R.I.P. Kattlecox

That's what the ladies call me. :heybaby:

I figured you should go out on a high note.

Well, I'll be high, at least.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: dparrott on March 15, 2020, 12:46:04 AM

Yea TP and sanitizer have been non-existent north of L.A. for a week now.  Now food is starting to get thin.

This thing has shut down all pro sports.  It's gonna be a depressing few weeks at least. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 15, 2020, 08:23:43 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 14, 2020, 05:13:45 PM

Who is Kattlecox?

Sounds like Bull to me!........






 ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 15, 2020, 08:46:52 AM

@MirrorMask

The biggest paper in Norway published a message thread yesterday, supposedly between a Norwegian doctor and an Italian friend / colleague. In the chat, the Italian doctor told horrific things such as they were running out of equipment, most doctors are probably sick too, and that they had no chance to treat everybody. They had to make hard decisions on who to help and who to leave to die.

Does the Italian press publish similar stories?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 15, 2020, 08:53:16 AM

The same thing was mentioned in Dutch newspapers. It’s a hospital’s worst nightmare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 15, 2020, 09:01:02 AM

Hoboken in NJ has a curfew in place. NYC cases quadruple since Wednesday.

My job is letting most staff work remotely, the rest of the staff will alternate days they work, I am expected to be there every day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 15, 2020, 09:06:48 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 15, 2020, 08:53:16 AM

The same thing was mentioned in Dutch newspapers. It’s a hospital’s worst nightmare.

It worries me a lot. The stories are from Northern Italy. Not some third world country with minimal resources. But from an area with excellent hospitals.

Norway can dig out an extra 800-1200 intensive care beds. Nationwide.

It's not gonna be enough.

If I was religious I'd start praying. But I'm not, so I stay home and hope for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 15, 2020, 09:28:51 AM

What's sad too, a lot of people are going to die alone without their loved ones by their side because of travel restrictions  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 15, 2020, 09:33:54 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 15, 2020, 09:28:51 AM

What's sad too, a lot of people are going to die alone without their loved ones by their side because of travel restrictions  :(

I had that thought too. My mom is almost 70 and in Israel. If something were to happen to her, I’d have to be in quarantine for 2 weeks after I get there before being able to see her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 15, 2020, 09:43:43 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 15, 2020, 08:46:52 AM

The biggest paper in Norway published a message thread yesterday, supposedly between a Norwegian doctor and an Italian friend / colleague. In the chat, the Italian doctor told horrific things such as they were running out of equipment, most doctors are probably sick too, and that they had no chance to treat everybody. They had to make hard decisions on who to help and who to leave to die.

Does the Italian press publish similar stories?

The situation is indeed dire, and the space in the hospital is quickly running out, even though no one has officially said that "We'll decide on who to give up". Even though when spaces are full, they kinda have to decide who to admit and who leave out...

New intensive care structures are being build in a desperate race against time (that's where people with breathing issues gets intubated), to be able to accomodate everyone, but it's a difficult battle.

The news here are mainly a war bulletin - reporting on everything that's going on, it's on social media that you can find stories from the "front lines" so to speak, and some are absolutely horrifying (in the province of Bergamo, 30 minutes away from Milan, the situation is very dramatic and the death toll is insanely high).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 15, 2020, 09:57:57 AM

 :(

I will link the conversation below, in case anyone is interested. Warning, this is scary reading.

[spoiler]
(https://www.diskusjon.no/uploads/monthly_2020_03/image.png.762b427e7475ee6fe128dbacef0bdb64.png)

(https://www.diskusjon.no/uploads/monthly_2020_03/image.png.8b49480bb6ad3d342908e313960752cc.png)

(https://www.diskusjon.no/uploads/monthly_2020_03/image.png.ba9f2455011c92eeb104d9e770a4ee64.png)




[/spoiler]

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 15, 2020, 10:15:53 AM

A good read that again highlights the need for everyone to stay home as much as possible:

https://www.howardluksmd.com/sports-medicine/covid-19-update-3-14-2020-concerned-physicians-unite/?fbclid=IwAR28ejSFGcVKpwt8KZWhYU8V6VHbe9rCuGDGfIMHbNOJarMuHgI8Yf_RJG8

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 15, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

I realized my family is pretty lucky to be working in the fields we do. My wife is a teacher, still being paid while off work, and thus able to stay at home with our kids. And I am in residential remodeling so will be working as long as the lumberyard and Home Depot are open. I only get paid for hours worked, so my ability to work is important to our family. I now recognize the importance of school closures, though I was against it earlier. I feel for the families who are either not bringing in an income, or struggling to find childcare so they are able to work.

As others have said, if you can help out a friend, family member, or a neighbor in any way, please do so. I know we need to practice SOCIAL DISTANCING but if you can run to the grocery store for someone, or watch someone's kids for a day so they can work, give it a consideration.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 15, 2020, 10:44:28 AM

Quote from: JLa on March 15, 2020, 08:46:52 AM

Does the Italian press publish similar stories?

Yes it does, when the source isn't anonymous. The dinner-time newscasts are pretty tough every evening, but there's little use hiding the facts; almost everyone has a friend / relative / connection working in a hospital, and the reports are the same (inside the most critical areas): "we are running out of room and approaching the point of no return".

The press is being unusually straightforward. I guess a) it's become impossible to hide what's really happening. b) You REALLY have to make people realise that ignoring appropriate conduct leads to medical system failure which leads to, well , everybody knows what.

There's absolutely no evidence that what's happening right here is gonna happen elsewhere, nor that it won't. No one knows. Please, do what is sensible to do when you don't know: be prudent, help those in need, and follow instructions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 15, 2020, 11:04:04 AM

Schools closed, all restaurants, hotels and cafés closed, starting tomorrow and lasting at least three weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 15, 2020, 11:55:36 AM

After Chicago saw a night of partying in bars, clubs and restaurants for the St. Patrick's Day holiday weekend, the city just imposed restrictions on any business that sells alcohol:

1.  Establishments must limit their capacity to 50% of their standard capacity
2.  Establishments that sell alcohol must limit their capacity to 100 patrons.

I'm working from home, but naturally, my boss wants me to come in one day this week to handle paperwork and process checks and "remain flexible".  He plans to be in the office daily until he's told not to come in.  Whatever.  At least I don't have to go in 4 out of 5 days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 15, 2020, 01:09:24 PM

So the US has no clear directions on what to do?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 15, 2020, 01:12:00 PM

Quote from: Elite on March 15, 2020, 01:09:24 PM

So the US has no clear directions on what to do?

We're gonna do the best stuff, you're not gonna believe it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 15, 2020, 02:15:13 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 15, 2020, 11:55:36 AM

After Chicago saw a night of partying in bars, clubs and restaurants for the St. Patrick's Day holiday weekend, the city just imposed restrictions on any business that sells alcohol:

1.  Establishments must limit their capacity to 50% of their standard capacity
2.  Establishments that sell alcohol must limit their capacity to 100 patrons.

I'm working from home, but naturally, my boss wants me to come in one day this week to handle paperwork and process checks and "remain flexible".  He plans to be in the office daily until he's told not to come in.  Whatever.  At least I don't have to go in 4 out of 5 days.

But wait, Devin Nunes is telling me to go out to a restaurant or bar with the family. I'm so confused.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/its-a-great-time-to-go-out-california-republican-devin-nunes-talks-about-life-amid-the-coronavirus-pandemic-2020-03-15?mod=MW_article_top_stories

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on March 15, 2020, 03:04:01 PM

Quote from: Elite on March 15, 2020, 01:09:24 PM

So the US has no clear directions on what to do?

That's pretty much par for the course here in 'Murica....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 15, 2020, 03:52:07 PM

Quote from: JLa on March 15, 2020, 09:57:57 AM

""

I don't even know what to say to this. Is this real?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 15, 2020, 04:13:29 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 15, 2020, 03:52:07 PM

Quote from: JLa on March 15, 2020, 09:57:57 AM

""

I don't even know what to say to this. Is this real?

Most likely yes. Northern Italy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 15, 2020, 06:21:33 PM

CDC COVID page:

"CDC recommends that for the next 8 weeks, organizers cancel or postpone in-person events that consist of 50 people or more throughout the U.S"

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/large-events/mass-gatherings-ready-for-covid-19.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 15, 2020, 06:50:58 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 15, 2020, 11:55:36 AM

After Chicago saw a night of partying in bars, clubs and restaurants for the St. Patrick's Day holiday weekend, the city just imposed restrictions on any business that sells alcohol:

1.  Establishments must limit their capacity to 50% of their standard capacity
2.  Establishments that sell alcohol must limit their capacity to 100 patrons.

I'm working from home, but naturally, my boss wants me to come in one day this week to handle paperwork and process checks and "remain flexible".  He plans to be in the office daily until he's told not to come in.  Whatever.  At least I don't have to go in 4 out of 5 days.

And now, all restaurants and bars are closed to patrons for at least 2 weeks. Drive-thru's and pickup service will remain open, but no going inside and eating anywhere here in Illinois.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 15, 2020, 06:54:38 PM

I don't know how I feel about these laws closing restaurants and such. I might change my mind if I gave it some more thought, but on the surface I don't like it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 15, 2020, 06:57:17 PM

Bars in Cali just closed.  Restaurants limited.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 15, 2020, 06:59:40 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 15, 2020, 06:54:38 PM

I don't know how I feel about these laws closing restaurants and such. I might change my mind if I gave it some more thought, but on the surface I don't like it.

On one level I agree with this, but on another, people are fucking stupid enough to be going out to bars and fast food places in the first place, so I see why it's necessary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 15, 2020, 07:15:48 PM

What's wrong with goign through a fast-food joint? Aren't places encouraged to offer drive-thru/pick-up/delivery to help them stay afloat?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 15, 2020, 07:27:30 PM

I'm not really talking about people using the drive through. Although even there, you do run a risk since the employees in fast food places are coming to work whether or not they're sick because they're not getting paid otherwise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on March 15, 2020, 07:44:08 PM

Luckily The Wife bought the usual amount of toilet paper last week (one of those big packs that have 27 rolls or something). We only have a little bit of hand sanitizer but I don't care because I never use that stuff anyway. I couldn't find my regular bathroom hand soap so I had to buy some "prebiotic" whatever that is. Really fucking stupid. And as someone else said earlier in the thread, WTF are the wanna-be survivalists buying up all the bottled water???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 15, 2020, 07:50:09 PM

If this lasts too long, these small business will go under all across the country. The economic impact will be on a level we haven't seen in our life times.

On top of that the Fed has lowered interest rates to nearly zero. Negative interest rates might be on the horizon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 15, 2020, 10:22:34 PM

Yep, even if the number of those who get the virus is kept to a minimum (whatever that means), the devastation that is going to happen to the economy and businesses here is scary to think about.  I work for a transportation company that has been in the industry for almost 40 years and has a great rep (two locations, probably 125 total employees), and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about them surviving this.  It is already a tough time lately for transportation as freight has been going through a slow spell lately after a crazy good 2018, and this is certain to bury a lot of businesses in the industry. I just pray we are not one of them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on March 15, 2020, 10:29:01 PM

Newest CDC guidelines really are going to put my business in a tough spot, not as tough as weddings mind you, but if people want a traditional funeral, they generally expect 50+ people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on March 15, 2020, 10:44:50 PM

My family owns a grocery store and I wouldn’t lie if I’m not nervous. People will need groceries and I think because we are a neighborhood grocery store, people won’t want to go too far to get groceries, so I think that will bode well for us. But how will transport work for the companies we order from? Will I still be able to get produce from California? How will it all work? Will we need to adjust hours? Are we going to be busy? Are we just gonna tank into the ground?

I don’t think we will, in fact, I think we’ll be busier than usual. But we won’t know until we see what route Minnesota is going to go and what our government will enact. A confirmed case of Coronavirus happened at the university up the road from us. That hasn’t had an impact yet, but who knows.

The fear of the unknown is what worries me and this is our lifeblood.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 15, 2020, 11:48:48 PM

I work in a small company in the e-learning market. We have just been bought by a big technical consultancy company.

Now, normally when there is a recession I would not worry as companies want to lower their cost for education and we are there to help them with that.

Now though, with SAS getting rid of 90% of their workforce and Scandic getting rid of 50% among others.... I do start to worry

1. Companies might just stop all education completeley
2. Consultants are the first to go (making our new owners vulnerable)

Right now no changes though..... except everyone is allowed to work from home and everyone has to 'check in' on Teams every morning.

Tough times  ahead.... stay safe everyone

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Train of Naught on March 16, 2020, 01:42:32 AM

I'm working at a site with a big courtyard with many big companies like Zalando and Wayfair, but most of them have closed. I'm lucky enough to live close to work, and to only interact with 3-4 people on a regular working day. I can't do my job 100% remotely, but still about half of it. It's not affecting my work directly, but it's affecting the bands on our roster immensely, all of the tours the bands were on / were planning to go on until at least mid April are canceled, and it'll most likely extend to at least July..? It hurts the production big time.

I'm mildly concerned, but lucky not to interact with any older people on a regular day, so I'm still pretty comfortable. What concerns me a little is that my mom is in Madrid (she goes very regularly to visit her boyfriend) and they already went on partial lockdown, borders still open to some countries though. I'm urging her to get an earlier flight back but she says it's okay and she can wait until they announce it officially. I just think with the way Spain is going I could totally see The Netherlands refusing flights from Spain back, or Spain having to spontaneously close the borders without prior notice.

And to all the ravers that desperately throw illegal parties because the government is stealing their night club candy from you and put your own temporary amusement above everyone around you, screw you :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 02:20:34 AM

All these more than valid concerns about the economy, which are felt also in Europe as well, should definitively render moot the point about the mortality of the virus.

Aside from the fact that even a few people dying is tragic (and they die alone, with a tube down their throat, not being able to see their loved ones one last time), look at what's happening with all these lockdowns. The regular activities, school included, are disrupted. Many businesses, especially the small ones, will face grave economical difficulties. Concerts are being cancelled and so sporting events - I believe that the last time all the national and international sporting events got suspended, Adolf friggin' Hitler was still alive.

This has to be fought and taken seriously even just for the economical disaster that it will inflict upon everyone. Imagine that next time a virus comes out and it's not lethal, but, dunno, makes you so weak that you need to be hospitalized for two weeks straight because you need to be treated or fed with tubes or whatever. Imagine that it has the same capability of propagation of the Covid-19. Even if no one would die, we'd still have a lot of people being hospitalized at the same time, and many people missing from work at the same time (infect  a teacher, a whole school is closed, infect a supermarket worker, that store has to be closed, infect a sport player, the tournament gets suspended, and so on). The need to stop and quarantine everyone would still be the same even if nobody was dying.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on March 16, 2020, 03:32:43 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 02:20:34 AM

All these more than valid concerns about the economy, which are felt also in Europe as well, should definitively render moot the point about the mortality of the virus.

Aside from the fact that even a few people dying is tragic (and they die alone, with a tube down their throat, not being able to see their loved ones one last time), look at what's happening with all these lockdowns. The regular activities, school included, are disrupted. Many businesses, especially the small ones, will face grave economical difficulties. Concerts are being cancelled and so sporting events - I believe that the last time all the national and international sporting events got suspended, Adolf friggin' Hitler was still alive.

This has to be fought and taken seriously even just for the economical disaster that it will inflict upon everyone. Imagine that next time a virus comes out and it's not lethal, but, dunno, makes you so weak that you need to be hospitalized for two weeks straight because you need to be treated or fed with tubes or whatever. Imagine that it has the same capability of propagation of the Covid-19. Even if no one would die, we'd still have a lot of people being hospitalized at the same time, and many people missing from work at the same time (infect  a teacher, a whole school is closed, infect a supermarket worker, that store has to be closed, infect a sport player, the tournament gets suspended, and so on). The need to stop and quarantine everyone would still be the same even if nobody was dying.

Is there any sense that the tide is turning in Italy?   Any slowdown on new cases?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 03:45:07 AM

Nope, not yet. Italy has been quarantined a week ago so it's still a week to go before seeing the eventual results.

The contagions DID stop in the first two small towns where it all started, because they were quarantined from the get go. But for Italy as a whole, the first results will be seen in 7-10 days from now. Possibly a bit later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 05:18:08 AM

A work peer in Singapore just told our team "it's been getting better here for the past several weeks.  In fact this weekend the stopped the temperature scans that were in place at all buildings / malls.  Very few people are still wearing masks, and for the most part, the locals have returned to the cafes, bars and restaurants (from my limited vantage point)."

I'll take any piece of good news that comes up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 16, 2020, 05:22:24 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on March 16, 2020, 03:32:43 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 02:20:34 AM

All these more than valid concerns about the economy, which are felt also in Europe as well, should definitively render moot the point about the mortality of the virus.

Aside from the fact that even a few people dying is tragic (and they die alone, with a tube down their throat, not being able to see their loved ones one last time), look at what's happening with all these lockdowns. The regular activities, school included, are disrupted. Many businesses, especially the small ones, will face grave economical difficulties. Concerts are being cancelled and so sporting events - I believe that the last time all the national and international sporting events got suspended, Adolf friggin' Hitler was still alive.

This has to be fought and taken seriously even just for the economical disaster that it will inflict upon everyone. Imagine that next time a virus comes out and it's not lethal, but, dunno, makes you so weak that you need to be hospitalized for two weeks straight because you need to be treated or fed with tubes or whatever. Imagine that it has the same capability of propagation of the Covid-19. Even if no one would die, we'd still have a lot of people being hospitalized at the same time, and many people missing from work at the same time (infect  a teacher, a whole school is closed, infect a supermarket worker, that store has to be closed, infect a sport player, the tournament gets suspended, and so on). The need to stop and quarantine everyone would still be the same even if nobody was dying.

Is there any sense that the tide is turning in Italy?   Any slowdown on new cases?

Italy had almost 400 deaths from it yesterday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 05:40:19 AM

I always check daily this site by now, the one added in the OP:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Damn. I don't even watch the italian numbers anymore, they're gutting, and Spain is doing very bad. France and Germany are not doing that good either. I'm afraid for the future UK and USA numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 16, 2020, 05:50:19 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 05:40:19 AM

I always check daily this site by now, the one added in the OP:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Damn. I don't even watch the italian numbers anymore, they're gutting, and Spain is doing very bad. France and Germany are not doing that good either. I'm afraid for the future UK and USA numbers.

Yeah, our news reported on Italy and those recent numbers are scary. Apparently doctors are required to make difficult choices who to treat in general due to capacity issues. Intensive care is at capacity in some hospitals, meaning choices have to be made between patients that are all in life danger (many of which are not corona sufferers). And that is why the mortality rate of an unchecked viral outbreak will not be just of the virus itself, it also poses a danger to others with health issues due to the strain it puts on healthcare. I can only hope the "flatten the curve" strategies will work out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 05:56:28 AM

Quote from: Nick on March 15, 2020, 10:29:01 PM

Newest CDC guidelines really are going to put my business in a tough spot, not as tough as weddings mind you, but if people want a traditional funeral, they generally expect 50+ people.

My uncle just passed and I'm curious to see how it plays out. I think the graveside service will be about 30 to 40, but the reception will be much greater.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 16, 2020, 06:14:15 AM

I'm officially working from home until at least the 27th. Not sure how to feel about that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 16, 2020, 06:30:05 AM

We went out a few times this weekend in Minneapolis, kind of assuming we'll just hunker down for a while now. I'm not terribly concerned for myself or my family since were're all young and healthy, but certainly am concerned about the elderly and the healthcare system as a whole. It will be very interesting to see how things go. It's encouraging that things seem to have turned a corner in Asia. I fear Americans are too independent and "free" to listen to the authorities that we should just stay home. I know my gut reaction to being told to stay home is "screw you... I can do what I want" until my brain kicks in and realizes that really is for the best. I wish my company would allow us to work from home if we can. I suspect that will change soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 06:55:32 AM

I'm still of the opinion that all these drastic measures are only necessary because we can't seem to practice the little, PERSONAL things that would improve our odds. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 16, 2020, 06:57:49 AM

Yesterday, our president advised all businesses to let people work from home if possible. They also announced that schools and universities will be closed for the next two weeks and that the borders will be closed to anyone who doesn't live in the country. I am glad to see they are tackling the problem early on. I just hope that people listen to the recommendation of staying home as much as possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 16, 2020, 07:01:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 06:55:32 AM

I'm still of the opinion that all these drastic measures are only necessary because we can't seem to practice the little, PERSONAL things that would improve our odds.

That might be the most pragmatic libertarian thing you've said heh.



Personally? I would love to self-quarantine for a week or two. Sadly, my work doesn't change and I can't work from home. Such is life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 16, 2020, 07:10:57 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 16, 2020, 07:01:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 06:55:32 AM

I'm still of the opinion that all these drastic measures are only necessary because we can't seem to practice the little, PERSONAL things that would improve our odds.

That might be the most pragmatic libertarian thing you've said heh.



Personally? I would love to self-quarantine for a week or two. Sadly, my work doesn't change and I can't work from home. Such is life.

I'm in the same boat as you Adami.  It's very busy because the selves are empty at WAL Mart.  So here at the DC, if they are busy, we are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 07:19:23 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 06:55:32 AM

I'm still of the opinion that all these drastic measures are only necessary because we can't seem to practice the little, PERSONAL things that would improve our odds.

Correction... we *DIDN'T* practice those little things.  And now aggressive/extreme measures need to be taken.  As every outbreak region has shown, there is a minimum 7-10 day lag from the time measures are undertaken, to the time the results of those measures are seen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 16, 2020, 07:27:35 AM

Expecting my dad's place (homemade chocolates and ice cream and then burgers and sandwiches) to get the order to go to delivery and takeout only sometime this week. If it lasts very long it's going to hurt because Easter is their biggest time of year, they've literally been churning out chocolate bunnies and such since shortly after the new year.

I'm just thankful I have a job where it's easy enough for me to work from home daily. I have friends who work in the beer scene in NYC who are getting nervous.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 07:31:56 AM

CHAMPAIGN --TheChampaign-Urbana Public Health District (CUPHD) announced the first case of coronavirus disease (COVID-19) in Champaign County. The resident is a female in her 50s and is in home isolation and recovering. Public health officials are identifying and contacting all close contacts.

Ah, screw me sideways, it's already here. Nice knowing ya'll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 16, 2020, 07:32:33 AM

Yay! Another bloodbath day in the stock market! I know I shouldn't sell, but it's so damn tempting! I think I'm going to hold off on adding anything to my Roth IRA for a while, but the 410k will still get its regular payday addition.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 07:39:25 AM

Trading halted after what, 2 seconds?

If anyone's horizon is more than three years, hold.  Anyone who has a 2 year or less horizon, this blows.  Hard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 16, 2020, 07:50:51 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 05:56:28 AM

Quote from: Nick on March 15, 2020, 10:29:01 PM

Newest CDC guidelines really are going to put my business in a tough spot, not as tough as weddings mind you, but if people want a traditional funeral, they generally expect 50+ people.

My uncle just passed and I'm curious to see how it plays out. I think the graveside service will be about 30 to 40, but the reception will be much greater.

I was at a funeral on Saturday for my friend and co-worker of over 20 years. I'm in Illinois. We absolutely broke the gathering rule. We all knew it, no one discussed it. We celebrated my friend and then we all went back home. It was a large gathering. I do think many stayed home due to the current situation. In this one case, I did not care. This was my oldest friend and I have been a wreck for days now. I needed to say goodbye.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 16, 2020, 08:04:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 07:39:25 AM

Trading halted after what, 2 seconds?

If anyone's horizon is more than three years, hold.  Anyone who has a 2 year or less horizon, this blows.  Hard.

We are 3.5 years out from retirement.  I did make a large move on Friday, buying a large chunk of my company stock, Marathon Petroleum Company.   It was at its lowest ever, $22 a share (Normal fluxuates between $40-70).  I figure EVENTUALLY it will get back in normal range being an oil stock.  My other 401K I don't even want to look at.  At this point I think I'm more concerned about our economy more than the virus.  At least with the virus I have a little control, If we're not already infected, by personal hygiene and social distancing.  With the economy and the retirement funds me and the wife have built up for the last 30 years we have virtually no control of and I guess we just have to ride it out and hope for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 08:09:54 AM

Meanwhile, in Italy....

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/coronavirus-death-metal-guitarist-plays-slayers-raining-blood-from-balcony-as-italy-stays-under-lockdown/

 :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 08:12:55 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 08:09:54 AM

Meanwhile, in Italy....

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/coronavirus-death-metal-guitarist-plays-slayers-raining-blood-from-balcony-as-italy-stays-under-lockdown/

 :metal

 :metal Towards the bottom...

Quote

In Italy, which has one of the oldest populations in the world, one hundred percent of the people who have died have been over 60, and the vast majority over 80.

Well... that's kind of reassuring I guess? I mean it's awful, it's tragic. But, like... that's surprising. Look, I'm taking any silver lining I can find in this mess. THAT SAID, my grandmother is 82. Hopefully she just continues to stay inside :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Sadly that's not correct, a couple of days ago a 47 years old (and healthy) first aid operator passed away because of the virus. Generally yes, it's elder people at risk, but younger people are at a severe risk as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 08:23:27 AM

Well, yeah. But statistically the point remains that the vast overwhelming majority are the very elderly, which is - and I know people don't want to hear this but it is a true fact - a good sign for most of us. That's something reassuring to keep in mind if any of us contract this virus. Don't panic, don't start talking about dying. Yesterday I had to listen to my mother talk about how she's not afraid to die, after losing my sister in October. Jesus Christ!  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 16, 2020, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 08:23:27 AM

Well, yeah. But statistically the point remains that the vast overwhelming majority are the very elderly, which is - and I know people don't want to hear this but it is a true fact - a good sign for most of us. That's something reassuring to keep in mind if any of us contract this virus. Don't panic, don't start talking about dying. Yesterday I had to listen to my mother talk about how she's not afraid to die, after losing my sister in October. Jesus Christ!  :(

Indeed. But also....for now.

My big thing with this, and it may turn out to be unfounded (which I hope) is its novelty. As it currently is, it's bad but not world ending. That said....what if it mutates? I think that's my biggest issue with the response that it's not THAT big of a deal. Sure, not right now. And I hope it never is. But nothing is until it is. Waiting until millions are dying to take it seriously is not a smart choice.

I know I'm quoting you, but only my first sentence was directly to you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 08:30:37 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 16, 2020, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 08:23:27 AM

Well, yeah. But statistically the point remains that the vast overwhelming majority are the very elderly, which is - and I know people don't want to hear this but it is a true fact - a good sign for most of us. That's something reassuring to keep in mind if any of us contract this virus. Don't panic, don't start talking about dying. Yesterday I had to listen to my mother talk about how she's not afraid to die, after losing my sister in October. Jesus Christ!  :(

Indeed. But also....for now.

My big thing with this, and it may turn out to be unfounded (which I hope) is its novelty. As it currently is, it's bad but not world ending. That said....what if it mutates? I think that's my biggest issue with the response that it's not THAT big of a deal. Sure, not right now. And I hope it never is. But nothing is until it is. Waiting until millions are dying to take it seriously is not a smart choice.

I know I'm quoting you, but only my first sentence was directly to you.

Hey, not so fast. I agree with all that.  :loser:  :lol

I have a bit of fear about the possibility of mutation as well. I'm also curious, though - say this does blow over in the near future, and we're lucky enough to mitigate the fallout. What next? Does anybody hold Wuhan/China responsible for allowing that kind of wild ass exotic animal market to exist? It's gonna happen again if another market pops up full of bats and pangolins and kangaroos and peacocks and rabbits all laying on each other getting chopped up in the street.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 16, 2020, 08:40:49 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 08:12:55 AM

 :metal Towards the bottom...

Quote

In Italy, which has one of the oldest populations in the world, one hundred percent of the people who have died have been over 60, and the vast majority over 80.

Well... that's kind of reassuring I guess? I mean it's awful, it's tragic. But, like... that's surprising. Look, I'm taking any silver lining I can find in this mess. THAT SAID, my grandmother is 82. Hopefully she just continues to stay inside :(

This is where I am right now.  Would I or my wife recover if we got ill?  Absolutely.  I'm not afraid to get sick, though I'd certainly have some hardships related to work and being sick or quarantined for 14 days (plus another 14 days when my wife would catch it from me).

But my in-laws are paranoid.  Both are over 60, with all sorts of current health issues like diabetes.  They are our primary babysitters for my kids.  I would be devastated if we got the illness and passed it on to them (or if the kids passed it onto them).  So I understand all of the precautions are not necessarily just to protect ME, but to protect ME from transmitting it to someone who would have a much harder time if they became ill.

I dropped my car off at the auto shop today for an oil change.  We'll probably order takeout from a local restaurant tonight, since they're being hit hardest of all.  I can avoid crowds except for when I have to commute to work.  Though I would bet that the train would be fairly empty.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 08:42:45 AM

Yes, the greatest health risk is to those over 60, but as this (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1103023/coronavirus-cases-distribution-by-age-group-italy/) shows, everyone is susceptible and a potential carrier.  South Korea's stats showed teenagers as the highest carrier, and if I'm not mistaken, SK has been testing the most.

@ Adami... I'm with you on those points.  #welp

Edit... ninja'd 3 times since I typed this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 16, 2020, 08:43:28 AM

Also:  Annette Olzon (The Dark Element, ex-Nightwish) is recovering/recovered from the virus.  Her day job is a nurse, so she's been on the front-lines.

Quote

Anette Olzon
March 13 at 10:51 AM ·

It’s time for prayers, for really taking the seriousness of corona and understand that we are facing the hardest times since I was born. It’s not the time to go to work being ill as many normally do, or send your ill children to school being ill either. Travels and going out to events have to be done when this has passed and we don’t know when. Think of the elderly, the ones with underlying diseases and also people in my age who may be more at risk to get pneumonia’s and organic failure due to the virus. I’ve been at home since Tuesday when I suddenly got a fever and a cough and I’m still at home. They don’t test us here so the only thing to do is stay at home if we’re feeling ill. Be safe, be wise and wash your hands❤️ #anetteolzon

Quote

Anette Olzon
2 hrs ·

Hey all! Today I’m feeling better finally❤️ easier to breathe, has only coughed once or twice and seeing that I feel I’m in the other side so tomorrow back to work finally! Happy to come out after 1 week inside my house 🦋 I’ll celebrate with an outdoor walk tonight🕺hope all of you are ok! Hugs and thanks for your love and best wishes 😘 #anetteolzon

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 16, 2020, 08:44:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 07:39:25 AM

Trading halted after what, 2 seconds?

If anyone's horizon is more than three years, hold.  Anyone who has a 2 year or less horizon, this blows.  Hard.

To be honest, if you have less than a two year horizon you shouldn't have much exposure to the stock market in the first place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 08:48:11 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 16, 2020, 08:40:49 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 08:12:55 AM

 :metal Towards the bottom...

Quote

In Italy, which has one of the oldest populations in the world, one hundred percent of the people who have died have been over 60, and the vast majority over 80.

Well... that's kind of reassuring I guess? I mean it's awful, it's tragic. But, like... that's surprising. Look, I'm taking any silver lining I can find in this mess. THAT SAID, my grandmother is 82. Hopefully she just continues to stay inside :(

This is where I am right now.  Would I or my wife recover if we got ill?  Absolutely.  I'm not afraid to get sick, though I'd certainly have some hardships related to work and being sick or quarantined for 14 days (plus another 14 days when my wife would catch it from me).

But my in-laws are paranoid.  Both are over 60, with all sorts of current health issues like diabetes.  They are our primary babysitters for my kids.  I would be devastated if we got the illness and passed it on to them (or if the kids passed it onto them).  So I understand all of the precautions are not necessarily just to protect ME, but to protect ME from transmitting it to someone who would have a much harder time if they became ill.

I dropped my car off at the auto shop today for an oil change.  We'll probably order takeout from a local restaurant tonight, since they're being hit hardest of all.  I can avoid crowds except for when I have to commute to work.  Though I would bet that the train would be fairly empty.

Oof. Hopefully your in-laws stay healthy and avoid getting it, dude. My mom just got sent home for three weeks along with everybody else in her company. She has to go in once a week and cut payroll but they're only allowing one person in the building at a time for the foreseeable future. So I feel better about her. My father, brother, and I are still here in the body shop, though, and people have been buying up so many face/dust masks that our vendors won't even have any in stock until JUNE. Kinda need those when we're filling the shop air with body dust!!  :censored

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 08:48:42 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 08:30:37 AM

I have a bit of fear about the possibility of mutation as well. I'm also curious, though - say this does blow over in the near future, and we're lucky enough to mitigate the fallout. What next? Does anybody hold Wuhan/China responsible for allowing that kind of wild ass exotic animal market to exist? It's gonna happen again if another market pops up full of bats and pangolins and kangaroos and peacocks and rabbits all laying on each other getting chopped up in the street.

It is my understanding that it's not much the market per se, but rather the changes we make to the enviroment.

Asia is urbanizing the living shit out of the continent. Eating up nature to make room for buildings forces animals to change their behaviours, and eventually we get into contact with stuff that was tucked away in the depths of the jungle.

It's gonna happen again in Africa and Asia, the places of the world where urbanization runs rampant. And wait for global warming, there's a lovecraftian horror movie waiting to happen when eternal glaciars that hold who knows which kind of bacteria won't be eternal anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 08:50:14 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 08:48:42 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 08:30:37 AM

I have a bit of fear about the possibility of mutation as well. I'm also curious, though - say this does blow over in the near future, and we're lucky enough to mitigate the fallout. What next? Does anybody hold Wuhan/China responsible for allowing that kind of wild ass exotic animal market to exist? It's gonna happen again if another market pops up full of bats and pangolins and kangaroos and peacocks and rabbits all laying on each other getting chopped up in the street.

It is my understanding that it's not much the market per se, but rather the changes we make to the enviroment.

Asia is urbanizing the living shit out of the continent. Eating up nature to make room for buildings forces animals to change their behaviours, and eventually we get into contact with stuff that was tucked away in the depths of the jungle.

It's gonna happen again in Africa and Asia, the places of the world where urbanization runs rampant. And wait for global warming, there's a lovecraftian horror movie waiting to happen when eternal glaciars that hold who knows which kind of bacteria won't be eternal anymore.

Isn't it more that they're eating those animals though, and the way they're handled isn't hygienic or safe at all (ex cutting them up in the streets, laying them on the ground, different species touching each other), and the poor have no other choice but to eat this shoddy, cheap meat of questionable origin/safety?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 08:52:30 AM

I'm no expert but I wouldn't rule out those as co-causes, yeah.

Here's btw the article I found:

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/why-so-many-epidemics-originate-in-asia-and-africa-and-why-we-can-expect-more/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:03:23 AM

Assuming this is accurate, I think Katt has it right.  Warning, there are some disturbing images.

 Why new diseases keep appearing in China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zoom E on March 16, 2020, 09:16:28 AM

I work for the federal government in Canada. Our offices are now closed until April 6th, and people who provide critical services will work from home.

I applaud our government in being proactive in taking early measures to stop this virus from progressing as it has in Europe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 09:17:14 AM

Illinois voting is tomorrow and I don't know if I should even bother.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 16, 2020, 09:20:55 AM

Moscow has just banned all social gatherings over 50 people. Doesn't exactly help me as my office won't allow us to work from home. I don't have a car so I can't stop using public transportation either. So pretty much this for me:

Quote from: Adami on March 16, 2020, 07:01:47 AM

Personally? I would love to self-quarantine for a week or two. Sadly, my work doesn't change and I can't work from home. Such is life.

We'll see what happens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 16, 2020, 09:22:25 AM

Finland locks down until mid April, except for necessary functions to keep the country running. Public gatherings of 10+ people will be banned which applies pressure on bars and restaurants to close. Schools close except for situations where it's necessary to arrange education for the youngest whose parents are employed in critical positions. Process to close borders will get underway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:31:20 AM

Quote from: Zoom E on March 16, 2020, 09:16:28 AM

I work for the federal government in Canada. Our offices are now closed until April 6th, and people who provide critical services will work from home.

I applaud our government in being proactive in taking early measures to stop this virus from progressing as it has in Europe.

What they're instituting (or more specifically, NOT instituting) at the borders is atrocious.  Even as early as this morning, advice to "self-monitor" was being given to incoming travellers.  Oh, and a CBSA agent at Toronto Pearson Airport is a confirmed case.  The measures we're taking are not coming quickly or decisively enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 16, 2020, 09:34:53 AM

Kids school closed (wife is a teacher there), and my work told me to stay home.  Looks like staycation in the pool week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 16, 2020, 09:35:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:03:23 AM

Assuming this is accurate, I think Katt has it right.  Warning, there are some disturbing images.

 Why new diseases keep appearing in China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54)

This is a good concise video and seems to mirror what our scientists are saying. The scary thing is that there are a lot of older articles and books basically calling for a new corona outbreak, some of them accurately predicting it's spread and risks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 16, 2020, 09:40:04 AM

Well, I now get to work from home as much as possible. Will probably have to swing by the office once or twice a week for an hour or two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 09:41:34 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 16, 2020, 09:35:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:03:23 AM

Assuming this is accurate, I think Katt has it right.  Warning, there are some disturbing images.

 Why new diseases keep appearing in China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54)

This is a good concise video and seems to mirror what our scientists are saying. The scary thing is that there are a lot of older articles and books basically calling for a new corona outbreak, some of them accurately predicting it's spread and risks.

I recently mentioned the Joe Rogan podcast episode with Michael Osterholm, I believe it was last week. Osterholm's book "Deadliest Enemy" predicted this exact outbreak down to the fallout.

If people are interested, here's the episode again, while you're home. The entire episode is loaded with really educational information about this, about disease, human behavior, etc. I urge people to watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 09:55:56 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:03:23 AM

Assuming this is accurate, I think Katt has it right.  Warning, there are some disturbing images.

 Why new diseases keep appearing in China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54)

That was a chilling video to watch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 10:14:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 09:55:56 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:03:23 AM

Assuming this is accurate, I think Katt has it right.  Warning, there are some disturbing images.

 Why new diseases keep appearing in China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54)

That was a chilling video to watch.

I saw some videos of what it was like in those markets, so disturbing that people do this but that video was really good in terms of how those markets became a thing so I learned something new today about that. 

Also, looks like NJ is closing all restaurants, movie theaters, and gyms.  Take out will be open though from restaurants and apparently they will allow you to take out booze.  A statewide curfew of 8pm-5am also may be going into effect. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 10:44:20 AM

@ Katt... thanks for that JRE link.  90 minutes - gotta try and find time to watch that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 10:52:49 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 10:44:20 AM

@ Katt... thanks for that JRE link.  90 minutes - gotta try and find time to watch that.

No prob, I think you'd dig it big time. They jump right into it at the start so no time is wasted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 16, 2020, 10:53:54 AM

Terrific and educational presser by Gov. Cuomo of New York today.  His state's numbers have skyrocketed, due in part because the availability of test kits in that state have increased. 

Similar shutdowns and limits set by Governor Hogan of Maryland.

An eye opener (if not presented earlier) on the lifespan of the virus on various surfaces.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/811609026/the-new-coronavirus-can-live-on-surfaces-for-2-3-days-heres-how-to-clean-them

So, be careful regarding your take out orders.  I made a last stop at Dunkin's for my wife today.  Both cashiers wearing disposable gloves (as always), the person making the specialty coffee was not.    :huh:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 10:57:13 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 16, 2020, 07:50:51 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 05:56:28 AM

Quote from: Nick on March 15, 2020, 10:29:01 PM

Newest CDC guidelines really are going to put my business in a tough spot, not as tough as weddings mind you, but if people want a traditional funeral, they generally expect 50+ people.

My uncle just passed and I'm curious to see how it plays out. I think the graveside service will be about 30 to 40, but the reception will be much greater.

I was at a funeral on Saturday for my friend and co-worker of over 20 years. I'm in Illinois. We absolutely broke the gathering rule. We all knew it, no one discussed it. We celebrated my friend and then we all went back home. It was a large gathering. I do think many stayed home due to the current situation. In this one case, I did not care. This was my oldest friend and I have been a wreck for days now. I needed to say goodbye.

We've gone to just a graveside service, no reception. No one is available for anything. It sucks that my aunt has to deal with this bs on top of losing her husband. Our family has lost two patriarchs in six months, we're crushed, and it's really tough to navigate all these other things on top of it ll.


I'm very sorry for your loss bro :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 16, 2020, 11:01:48 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 09:55:56 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:03:23 AM

Assuming this is accurate, I think Katt has it right.  Warning, there are some disturbing images.

 Why new diseases keep appearing in China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54)

That was a chilling video to watch.

Chilling yet not the least bit surprising.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 16, 2020, 11:11:48 AM

That was pretty tame by China standards. I've seen footage from their dog festivals that will forever haunt me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 16, 2020, 11:43:23 AM

(https://preview.redd.it/29zgna3u71n41.jpg?width=679&auto=webp&s=693ef62fb290bab4be4d19deb026d20436dda9f5)

I really hope this is a joke.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 16, 2020, 11:44:44 AM

It’s probably a joke. People are smart and rational. Doubt anyone would do something so dumb.






Ain’t easy being green.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 16, 2020, 11:48:17 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 16, 2020, 11:44:44 AM

It’s probably a joke. People are smart and rational. Doubt anyone would do something so dumb.

Ain’t easy being green.

You're giving people too much credit.  I can see people do something this dumb.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 16, 2020, 11:56:37 AM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on March 16, 2020, 11:48:17 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 16, 2020, 11:44:44 AM

It’s probably a joke. People are smart and rational. Doubt anyone would do something so dumb.

Ain’t easy being green.

You're giving people too much credit.  I can see people do something this dumb.

Oh sorry I was being completely ironic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 11:59:46 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 08:12:55 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 08:09:54 AM

Meanwhile, in Italy....

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/coronavirus-death-metal-guitarist-plays-slayers-raining-blood-from-balcony-as-italy-stays-under-lockdown/

 :metal

 :metal Towards the bottom...

Quote

In Italy, which has one of the oldest populations in the world, one hundred percent of the people who have died have been over 60, and the vast majority over 80.

Well... that's kind of reassuring I guess? I mean it's awful, it's tragic. But, like... that's surprising. Look, I'm taking any silver lining I can find in this mess. THAT SAID, my grandmother is 82. Hopefully she just continues to stay inside :(

Today I read that half of France's cases in intensive care are under 60 https://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-french-coronavirus-intensive-care-patients-are-under-60-2020-3 (https://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-french-coronavirus-intensive-care-patients-are-under-60-2020-3)

I know that is not the same as dying, but being younger does not really mean you are safe by any means (I know that's not what you were suggesting) but if the hospital systems get overloaded and young people need ICU too, it could lead to more deaths of younger people.  I had initially felt pretty safe with this virus due to being a healthy 35 year old, but as more info comes out, I feel less and less "safe". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 12:06:32 PM

My only beef with that is that the article doesn't specify anything other than 'under 60' though. Over 50? Over 40? I feel like an indicator of who is a part of that other 50% would maybe help quell concerns instead of leaving the spectre that 20-somethings are being hospitalized at the same rate as 50-somethings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 12:07:17 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 16, 2020, 11:43:23 AM

(https://preview.redd.it/29zgna3u71n41.jpg?width=679&auto=webp&s=693ef62fb290bab4be4d19deb026d20436dda9f5)

I really hope this is a joke.

She won't die of COVID-19, but I'm not ruling out sepsis, gastroenteritis, urinary tract infection, meningitis, hemorrhagic colitis, or Crohn's disease.

I imagine her dating profile took a hit too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 12:08:48 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 16, 2020, 12:06:32 PM

My only beef with that is that the article doesn't specify anything other than 'under 60' though. Over 50? Over 40? I feel like an indicator of who is a part of that other 50% would maybe help quell concerns instead of leaving the spectre that 20-somethings are being hospitalized at the same rate as 50-somethings.

Yea thats true, I think my point was merely that as time goes on and we get more data, the first things we were reading about the virus may or may not actually be the reality.  Who knows really, but I certainly don't feel safe at all from any of this like I first did.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 16, 2020, 12:21:52 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 10:57:13 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 16, 2020, 07:50:51 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 05:56:28 AM

Quote from: Nick on March 15, 2020, 10:29:01 PM

Newest CDC guidelines really are going to put my business in a tough spot, not as tough as weddings mind you, but if people want a traditional funeral, they generally expect 50+ people.

My uncle just passed and I'm curious to see how it plays out. I think the graveside service will be about 30 to 40, but the reception will be much greater.

I was at a funeral on Saturday for my friend and co-worker of over 20 years. I'm in Illinois. We absolutely broke the gathering rule. We all knew it, no one discussed it. We celebrated my friend and then we all went back home. It was a large gathering. I do think many stayed home due to the current situation. In this one case, I did not care. This was my oldest friend and I have been a wreck for days now. I needed to say goodbye.

We've gone to just a graveside service, no reception. No one is available for anything. It sucks that my aunt has to deal with this bs on top of losing her husband. Our family has lost two patriarchs in six months, we're crushed, and it's really tough to navigate all these other things on top of it ll.


I'm very sorry for your loss bro :hug:

I can't even imagine the suffering you are both going through right now.  My prayers are with you.  I hope you will both be able to find solace and comfort in your time of loss.  I know words don't offer much but it's the best I can do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on March 16, 2020, 01:36:55 PM

Just learned that my coworker treated a someone last Friday who diagnosed one of her patients with COVID-19.  That patient's test returned positive today.  The one who diagnosed her was sent home today (without symptoms) from work and is also to be tested.  Meanwhile, my coworker may have also potentially been exposed.  This coworker is also a good friend of my wife's and mine, and she and her husband helped us move this weekend for several hours, along with a few of our other friends.

Another coworker of mine who all of us have had direct contact with last week stayed home sick today with a fever.

So I'm a little concerned to say the least about what's to come.  My wife and I work in healthcare, and we both are in the same company at different clinics.  At some point, at least one of us is likely going to come in contact with this thing if we haven't already.  If that happens, I'm praying that we get the "mild" version of this thing...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 01:56:08 PM

Seems the San Francisco Bay area is going to go under a shelter in home quarantine, effective tomorrow for two weeks. Right now it's at rumor phase, but I've heard it from multiple sources on all spectrums. Announcement is at 10m I think.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 02:09:02 PM

The best news of the day, testing a vaccine has started.  First person injected with the test happened.  This is a record of how quickly this has happened.  Got this info from watching the WH press conference just now so no link.  Doesn't mean that will be available soon, but it's definitely a positive that the process is starting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 16, 2020, 02:10:21 PM

We just got notified today that all office personnel are instructed to telecommute for at least the next 2 weeks starting no later than tomorrow.  This will be the first time I've ever done that. :eek

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 16, 2020, 02:20:10 PM

My jobsite just got shutdown indefinitely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 02:33:12 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 16, 2020, 02:20:10 PM

My jobsite just got shutdown indefinitely.

You still in Castro Valley?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 16, 2020, 02:48:13 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 02:33:12 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 16, 2020, 02:20:10 PM

My jobsite just got shutdown indefinitely.

You still in Castro Valley?

Fremont, jobsite in San Jose. I'm assuming it'll be three weeks unless things change by then. Fortunately, should be able to manage that without too much financial pain.

How is this affecting you?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 16, 2020, 02:59:31 PM

Waiting to hear the official word, but either today or tomorrow will be my last day till the 7th at least. Not sure if it'll be paid, some of the tech companies are covering their service contract worker wages, hopefully Lyft follows suite.

Personally three weeks off hiking diablo is much needed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 03:03:39 PM

@ Snow Dog... dayum dude.  Thinking positively for you and mrs dog.  Wait, surely you know what I mean.  ;)

"Toronto medical officer of health Dr. Eileen de Villa strongly recommending dine-in restaurants, bars, nightclubs & theatres close *tonight* and warns she may issue orders to close them if they do not comply under Section 22 of the Health Protection and Promotion Act"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 16, 2020, 03:10:01 PM

Here goes the grocery store today. This was the paper towel/TP aisle, but most of the shelves were light.



(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6a/3f/60/6a3f601373e1e3c52e5e2be0428a5f29.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: frogprog on March 16, 2020, 03:14:17 PM

My wife ( Philly teacher) and daughter are off from school for "at least" 2 weeks. I work for a construction company in South Jersey and was just told to use up my vacation time for this year and then it will be a lay off as all of our jobs are shutting down - we do a lot of health care facilities and other commercial construction. I'm slightly worried about my immunity, having beat cancer 2.5 years ago but Im hopeful we will be ok health wise. We will Definitely be staying home with the exception of a weekly shopping run. Wife went this morning to supplement what we had stocked up 2 weeks ago. She said store (wegmans) had about 75% normal stock after the weekend madness but everything (deli etc.) was packaged up with minimal customer/ employee interaction.
That's my update from the South eastern PA region. Stay safe peeps in these troubling, historic times. Try not to dwell on the things you can't control even though that is easier said than done. Look out for your elderly neighbors who might need help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on March 16, 2020, 03:17:59 PM

I got home from Turkey OK and have been self-imposing a quarantine. Unfortunately, I got in touch with my doctor at student health at my university, and they recommended that I and my apartment mate do the self-quarantine for 14 days. This really sucks for him, and I feel bad, because I would have chosen to go stay with my parents had I known he would have be forced to quarantine, too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 03:28:26 PM

https://nypost.com/2020/03/16/religion-teacher-identified-as-njs-second-coronavirus-death/ (https://nypost.com/2020/03/16/religion-teacher-identified-as-njs-second-coronavirus-death/)

welp, lady in her 50s locally to me has died

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 16, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 16, 2020, 12:07:17 PM

She won't die of COVID-19, but I'm not ruling out sepsis, gastroenteritis, urinary tract infection, meningitis, hemorrhagic colitis, or Crohn's disease.

I imagine her dating profile took a hit too.

Or a huge uptick....

Quote from: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 02:09:02 PM

The best news of the day, testing a vaccine has started.  First person injected with the test happened.  This is a record of how quickly this has happened.  Got this info from watching the WH press conference just now so no link.  Doesn't mean that will be available soon, but it's definitely a positive that the process is starting.

One year away from being made available, if it works.

Much different tone at the WH presser today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 16, 2020, 03:37:35 PM

Lots of bad/frightful news today. :(

My sister is a nurse. Fortunately she just had a kid last month and is on maternity leave until the end of April. I hope the worst has passed by then...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 16, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

Much different tone at the WH presser today.

Yeah, honestly the change of tone starting from last week's conference to today's, has got me a bit worried.  I mean, I already was, but the quick change and worsening of tone, has kind of amped up my feelings of paranoia.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2020, 04:24:17 PM

Just to lighten up the mood... with all the postponed concerts, that will likely be rescheduled for the late summer or autumn, imagine what it will be like once all of this will be hopefully behind us in several months: concerts already scheduled for late in the year piling up on rescheduled concerts that were all cancelled this spring, it's gonna be concerts galore, 3 concerts in a week for months!  :metal

(Yeah, I know that one couldn't afford to catch up on everyone, and that many bands will lose their touring opportunity time-wise, but hey, let's imagine a future where we all take back with a vengeance what the virus is denying us!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 04:29:47 PM

I've had that on my mind as well lately.  I see my local ballroom is already announcing some new dates over the summer although I think it's a bit too early to do that, but if this does down in the next month or two, shit is going to be crazy with the concerts this summer and fall.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 16, 2020, 04:30:22 PM

The restrictions of "no more than 50 people allowed" hardly applies to prog bands, do they? What prog band has more than 50 fans attending their concerts?!  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 04:33:46 PM

 :rollin

I can't believe 311 day actually happened.  5k people for 3 days in Vegas at the end of last week.  Made me so jealous they all got to have fun but then again, that seemed like a super bad idea at that point. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zoom E on March 16, 2020, 10:44:35 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 16, 2020, 09:31:20 AM

Quote from: Zoom E on March 16, 2020, 09:16:28 AM

I work for the federal government in Canada. Our offices are now closed until April 6th, and people who provide critical services will work from home.

I applaud our government in being proactive in taking early measures to stop this virus from progressing as it has in Europe.

What they're instituting (or more specifically, NOT instituting) at the borders is atrocious.  Even as early as this morning, advice to "self-monitor" was being given to incoming travellers.  Oh, and a CBSA agent at Toronto Pearson Airport is a confirmed case.  The measures we're taking are not coming quickly or decisively enough.

Yes, I agree. Things are haphazard at the borders and the decision to allow US citizens across is a head-scratcher.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 17, 2020, 04:38:27 AM

Germany now has about 7k people being infected (making the country one at increased risk) and the Robert Koch-Institut (which is the equivalent to the CDC in the US I think) now predicts the pandemic to end in 2022. (on a related note to DT: I don't think they will wait until then to continue the Asian and Australian legs, will they? Ok, derailment over.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 04:40:11 AM

Good God. 2022? I hope no one is suggesting that we keep this crazy lockdown stuff going for two years.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 17, 2020, 04:43:58 AM

Well, in a magical world where everyone on the world was put on lockdown for 2 weeks, the virus would have died down straight away. And China, with 80K cases, is starting to come out on top of this. I can't see how this will go around for two uninterrupted years, it might come back in the late autumn but the crisis which is happening right now should be resolvable around April or May... hope I'm not too optimistic about this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on March 17, 2020, 04:54:08 AM

I'd wait to see what the CDC or people like Fauci have to say. I don't see this going until 2022 in the States. I guess I should say I'm very hopeful it doesn't go until 2022. If China sees another spike in infections after they have gone back on social distancing, that is a sign that we should stay on lockdown for longer. But if the virus continues to taper off there, that would be a good sign that this could be over within a few months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 05:30:49 AM

There is some tipping point where the overall social and economic impact of an extended lockdown creates more problems than it solves.  What happens when people who need medication can't afford it?  Economic "depression" and all of that fallout?  Existing health conditions might worsen for some people.  Thinking it could go for 2-ish years is scary af.  Truly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 17, 2020, 05:32:56 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 05:30:49 AM

There is some tipping point where the overall social and economic impact of an extended lockdown creates more problems than it solves.  What happens when people who need medication can't afford it?  Economic "depression" and all of that fallout?  Existing health conditions might worsen for some people.  Thinking it could go for 2-ish years is scary af.  Truly.

I know. But I only quoted official German news sources and the RKI does not issue these predictions for fun. (just so you know) I mean I could give you the links, but these won't help you if you don't speak the language.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 17, 2020, 05:57:15 AM

Yeah, I guess it depends on what they consider to be the 'end' of the pandemic. If the end is getting a functional vaccine and having every sick person recovered, ok, that might be sensible. If instead they mean when this whole near-lockdown situation is going to end, that's a lot more worrisome.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 17, 2020, 06:04:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 05:30:49 AM

There is some tipping point where the overall social and economic impact of an extended lockdown creates more problems than it solves.  What happens when people who need medication can't afford it?  Economic "depression" and all of that fallout?  Existing health conditions might worsen for some people.  Thinking it could go for 2-ish years is scary af.  Truly.

Hopefully a much needed revolution in US healthcare system.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 17, 2020, 06:06:31 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 17, 2020, 04:43:58 AM

Well, in a magical world where everyone on the world was put on lockdown for 2 weeks, the virus would have died down straight away. And China, with 80K cases, is starting to come out on top of this. I can't see how this will go around for two uninterrupted years, it might come back in the late autumn but the crisis which is happening right now should be resolvable around April or May... hope I'm not too optimistic about this.

The risk of the China approach is that if society continues as normal again, all it takes is one case (from another country perhaps) to create an outbreak again and then they are in the same spot again. Because there is no "herd immunity". It will be interesting to see how they continue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 17, 2020, 06:13:26 AM

Indeed. Picking up from your avatar, we're like the characters in Game of Thrones. We've faced a great menace (the virus, the Others), and we have to build the Wall.

First of all we need a vaccine, and for that, we're at the mercy of the brilliant minds working on it. Aside from that, we'll need maximum transparency next time around.... imagine that this dies down in May, and then just like the flu pops up again in December - will the governments be able to learn upon past mistakes and activate immediately?

Off the top of my head in a scenario where this thing goes away in May or so and then reappears in December, the top things that should happen should be:
- Immediate lockdown of planes coming from China, or wherever it pops up again
- Complete tracking down of each and every single person who's coming back from China, even from intermediate airports, and quarantine them
- If a case appears, quarantine of the entire region or province
- No public for sporting events

Will we, as a society, be able to accept the risk once again? say this all goes away in 2-3 months, will we be able in January 2021 to completely give up pubs, restaurants and trips because some cases started to pop again in China? in Game of Thrones nobody believed in the menace beyond the Wall. Granted, 8000 years have passed in the story. Will we, a year from now, accept that it's time once again to sacrifice a month of social life and trips and concerts? and this is just the most simplicistic scenario, where the emergency ends in late spring and comes back again as a "normal" flu next year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 06:43:03 AM

Self-quarantine here!
My wife is a Medical Assistant in a urology office, the doctor that she works with woke up with a fever today, went to the hospital and got tested, no result for 4 days.

Out of an abundance of caution, as soon as she called me at work with the news, I immediately packed up my laptop and some work to take home and left. I've posted before that I work for the cable company, we are considered essential as we provide TV/Internet/Phone, etc., which everyone needs now, but what I do is coordinating field jobs from the office, I can work from home.

But get this, my wife's company says if she doesn't come in, it is her decision, and she has to use PTO. That is some straight up bullshit right there, possibly infecting other co-workers and patients.
She is livid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 06:57:32 AM

They shut down testing centers in New York. I was supposed to take my licensing exam in the next few weeks, but apparently not. Who knows when I can now? Not like access to these study materials costs me 300 dollars for a renewal. Dammit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 17, 2020, 07:08:42 AM

Quote from: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 06:43:03 AM

But get this, my wife's company says if she doesn't come in, it is her decision, and she has to use PTO. That is some straight up bullshit right there, possibly infecting other co-workers and patients.
She is livid.

I'm kind of on the fence with this issue.  What are employers supposed to do?  Give employees unlimited paid time off?  I'm under the assumption that I'd have to use sick time/PTO if I got sick.  Luckily I've banked up 5 weeks of sick days over the last 8 years.

I work in a branch office for my company, in Chicago.  The corporate office in St. Louis seems unfazed by this situation and is very slow to put any sort of emergency plan together. They think it isn't going to be bad there.  It will, eventually.  My boss pushed them to create some sort of response and start thinking about it.  I highly doubt that they would just write a blank check to employees for time off, especially given that their response is "well, our clients expect us to continue to deliver the high level of service that we are known for, so no slacking off despite the media and crisis."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 07:13:54 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 17, 2020, 06:13:26 AM

Indeed. Picking up from your avatar, we're like the characters in Game of Thrones. We've faced a great menace (the virus, the Others), and we have to build the Wall.

First of all we need a vaccine, and for that, we're at the mercy of the brilliant minds working on it. Aside from that, we'll need maximum transparency next time around.... imagine that this dies down in May, and then just like the flu pops up again in December - will the governments be able to learn upon past mistakes and activate immediately?

Off the top of my head in a scenario where this thing goes away in May or so and then reappears in December, the top things that should happen should be:
- Immediate lockdown of planes coming from China, or wherever it pops up again
- Complete tracking down of each and every single person who's coming back from China, even from intermediate airports, and quarantine them
- If a case appears, quarantine of the entire region or province
- No public for sporting events

Will we, as a society, be able to accept the risk once again? say this all goes away in 2-3 months, will we be able in January 2021 to completely give up pubs, restaurants and trips because some cases started to pop again in China? in Game of Thrones nobody believed in the menace beyond the Wall. Granted, 8000 years have passed in the story. Will we, a year from now, accept that it's time once again to sacrifice a month of social life and trips and concerts? and this is just the most simplicistic scenario, where the emergency ends in late spring and comes back again as a "normal" flu next year.

There's no way in hell that the world can just shut down for a month or two every year if this pops up seasonally. It will eventually have to be something similar to the flu. They develop a vaccine for the strains that they think are the most likely to be prevalent, we all take it upon ourselves to minimize our risk of catching it, and a bunch of people get sick and die from it every year. But we don't have a global freak-out every year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 07:21:47 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 17, 2020, 07:08:42 AM

Quote from: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 06:43:03 AM

But get this, my wife's company says if she doesn't come in, it is her decision, and she has to use PTO. That is some straight up bullshit right there, possibly infecting other co-workers and patients.
She is livid.

I'm kind of on the fence with this issue.  What are employers supposed to do?  Give employees unlimited paid time off?  I'm under the assumption that I'd have to use sick time/PTO if I got sick.  Luckily I've banked up 5 weeks of sick days over the last 8 years.

I hear you. What they should at least do is let you borrow against future time off accruals.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 07:36:00 AM

Ontario has declared a state of emergency, and shut down all functions and places where gatherings of 50 could occur.  Trying to keep the province 'running', but who knows how far the measures need to go.  Expectation is that Trudeau will also declare a state of emergency - he's addressing the nation in 2 hours.

Cases in Canada have doubled since Saturday I think.  Now, it's logical that the doubling period can/will happen faster with lower numbers, but I hope these measures are going to stretch that doubling period out.

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 07:13:54 AM

There's no way in hell that the world can just shut down for a month or two every year if this pops up seasonally. It will eventually have to be something similar to the flu. They develop a vaccine for the strains that they think are the most likely to be prevalent, we all take it upon ourselves to minimize our risk of catching it, and a bunch of people get sick and die from it every year. But we don't have a global freak-out every year.

I have a feeling that this will be the best possible end-state goal.  Living with COVID-19 the same way we live with influenza will likely have to be be a new normal for the planet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 07:38:04 AM

Wait, is it confirmed to be mutating or something? Isn't it a bit early to PANIC! (;)) about dealing with this on a yearly basis? Should probably get through the first wave before wringing our hands, yeah? Optimism!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 07:46:03 AM

Quote from: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 06:43:03 AM

Self-quarantine here!
My wife is a Medical Assistant in a urology office, the doctor that she works with woke up with a fever today, went to the hospital and got tested, no result for 4 days.

Out of an abundance of caution, as soon as she called me at work with the news, I immediately packed up my laptop and some work to take home and left. I've posted before that I work for the cable company, we are considered essential as we provide TV/Internet/Phone, etc., which everyone needs now, but what I do is coordinating field jobs from the office, I can work from home.

But get this, my wife's company says if she doesn't come in, it is her decision, and she has to use PTO. That is some straight up bullshit right there, possibly infecting other co-workers and patients.
She is livid.

Not being critical, no judgment, just asking questions...  why did you go home because the doctor at your wife's work went home with a fever?  Do you think you were exposed?  (If so, godspeed; I hope you're okay).

Is hers a job she can do from home or does she need to be present to perform her duties?  I'm on the fence on this, because I have people in what I would call the "society protection business".   My brother is a cop; so his job is going in where others don't want to, and my cousin is an ER nurse.   NOT JUDGING YOU OR YOUR WIFE, but if either of them decided to "work from home", I'd have little choice but to decide that should be their own decision and therefore their paid time off.   It's a virus I get it, but I don't know; I don't necessarily think that means "anything and everything goes the way you want them to go".   Even travel; I think it's fantastic that airlines and hotels and such are waiving fees, but if you look at it purely from a business point of view, why?  It's not their problem.   I was supposed to go to San Francisco next week; if absent the virus, my company said "don't go", I'd owe cancellation fees.  Why does the virus cost get put on the airlines and not my company? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 07:47:28 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 17, 2020, 07:21:47 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 17, 2020, 07:08:42 AM

Quote from: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 06:43:03 AM

But get this, my wife's company says if she doesn't come in, it is her decision, and she has to use PTO. That is some straight up bullshit right there, possibly infecting other co-workers and patients.
She is livid.

I'm kind of on the fence with this issue.  What are employers supposed to do?  Give employees unlimited paid time off?  I'm under the assumption that I'd have to use sick time/PTO if I got sick.  Luckily I've banked up 5 weeks of sick days over the last 8 years.

I hear you. What they should at least do is let you borrow against future time off accruals.

I agree, and had she been exposed away from work, then yes, use PTO, she has plenty saved up. But she was exposed at work by the doc that she works with, and we don't even know if she was actually exposed or not yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 17, 2020, 08:01:21 AM

Quote from: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 07:47:28 AM

I agree, and had she been exposed away from work, then yes, use PTO, she has plenty saved up. But she was exposed at work by the doc that she works with, and we don't even know if she was actually exposed or not yet.

I work in the insurance industry and have read a lot of information over the last few days as to how this disease applies to Workers Compensation.  Ultimately, an employee needs to be exposed to a disease as a result of their regular daily work duties for it to qualify for Workers Compensation (think a coal miner developing coal miner's lung).

Regarding COVID-19, most employees will have work comp claims denied, since their daily jobs don't usually have them being exposed to disease as a result of their job duties.  I.E., just because I work in an office where a person may have come in with a fever and cough doesn't mean that I can claim workers compensation.  I don't work in an industry where exposure to disease is a primary risk.  The only potential exception is that people working in the medical industry are coming into contact with patients that are ill or are carrying COVID-19 while performing their regular daily job duties.

I would suggest that your wife talk to her employer about filing a Workers Compensation claim, should she be diagnosed or potentially have the virus.  The claim may be denied, but she can make a case that she was exposed at work and the virus was transmitted to her through her regular job duties. 

Workers Compensation would cover statutory benefits set by the state (generally all medical bills are covered at 100% with no deductible and out of pocket, and a percentage of lost wages while off of work).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 08:05:08 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 07:46:03 AM

Quote from: New World Rushman on March 17, 2020, 06:43:03 AM

Self-quarantine here!
My wife is a Medical Assistant in a urology office, the doctor that she works with woke up with a fever today, went to the hospital and got tested, no result for 4 days.

Out of an abundance of caution, as soon as she called me at work with the news, I immediately packed up my laptop and some work to take home and left. I've posted before that I work for the cable company, we are considered essential as we provide TV/Internet/Phone, etc., which everyone needs now, but what I do is coordinating field jobs from the office, I can work from home.

But get this, my wife's company says if she doesn't come in, it is her decision, and she has to use PTO. That is some straight up bullshit right there, possibly infecting other co-workers and patients.
She is livid.

Not being critical, no judgment, just asking questions...  why did you go home because the doctor at your wife's work went home with a fever?  Do you think you were exposed?  (If so, godspeed; I hope you're okay).

Is hers a job she can do from home or does she need to be present to perform her duties?  I'm on the fence on this, because I have people in what I would call the "society protection business".   My brother is a cop; so his job is going in where others don't want to, and my cousin is an ER nurse.   NOT JUDGING YOU OR YOUR WIFE, but if either of them decided to "work from home", I'd have little choice but to decide that should be their own decision and therefore their paid time off.   It's a virus I get it, but I don't know; I don't necessarily think that means "anything and everything goes the way you want them to go".   Even travel; I think it's fantastic that airlines and hotels and such are waiving fees, but if you look at it purely from a business point of view, why?  It's not their problem.   I was supposed to go to San Francisco next week; if absent the virus, my company said "don't go", I'd owe cancellation fees.  Why does the virus cost get put on the airlines and not my company?

My wife is an LPN working as a medical assistant in a urology office, they see patients, although, starting yesterday, it was emergency and medically necessary only, so no she cant work from home. I think the whole situation right now is if there is even a chance that you were exposed, you should quarantine. My wife works closely with this doc, so she may have been exposed, and I live with her, so if she is carrying it, then I may have also been exposed. Her problem is that they made it "her decision", if you work in a medical office seeing patients, because of the nature of the job itself, they should have made her go home. Like I said in my other response, if she had been exposed anywhere else, then I could understand her having to use sick-time.

It could be nothing, but until we know for sure, I shouldn't be going to work possibly exposing my co-workers. Like I said I can work from home, and my boss agrees with my decision to do so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 17, 2020, 08:13:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 16, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 16, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

Much different tone at the WH presser today.

Yeah, honestly the change of tone starting from last week's conference to today's, has got me a bit worried.  I mean, I already was, but the quick change and worsening of tone, has kind of amped up my feelings of paranoia.

I saw it more as the current occupant finally facing reality after weeks of dismissive comments.  Mar-a-lago went through a deep clean yesterday after many of the guests from ten days ago tested positive (Brazilian and Australian officials) and others self quarantined. 

Numbers of deaths just keep massively climbing in Spain and Italy.  Meanwhile, Taiwan has had only five.  They were checking inbound passengers from China while still on their airplanes as far back as December 31st. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 17, 2020, 08:15:47 AM

Aaaaaaaaaand my work is closing. Let the coronavacations begin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 17, 2020, 08:36:14 AM

Norwegian unemployment rates have risen 128 % over the past week.

This is bad.  :-[

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 08:55:40 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I doubt that'll happen. Likely they'll give some kind of small tax cuts to some people, and more excessive financial relief to big companies affected by this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 08:58:18 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy.

(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/cc93379/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F76%2F1f%2F2c9f2b8b46239a8833e08033638a%2F20190912-yang-debate-gty-773.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 17, 2020, 08:59:35 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 08:55:40 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I doubt that'll happen. Likely they'll give some kind of small tax cuts to some people, and more excessive financial relief to big companies affected by this.

Bush dumped $170B in 2008 into the pockets of the people when the housing market went belly up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:59:41 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 08:55:40 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I doubt that'll happen. Likely they'll give some kind of small tax cuts to some people, and more excessive financial relief to big companies affected by this.

Tax cuts won't help people who aren't working though. I can definitely see big bailouts for the travel industry and others that are majorly affected coming later down the road.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 09:02:42 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 17, 2020, 08:59:35 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 08:55:40 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I doubt that'll happen. Likely they'll give some kind of small tax cuts to some people, and more excessive financial relief to big companies affected by this.

Bush dumped $170B in 2008 into the pockets of the people when the housing market went belly up.

Do you remember what form it took? I honestly don't. And by that math, it's a bit under 1000 dollars per adult, so maybe. I know they're working on a final amount, but if most of it is going to businesses, then the amount left for the individual won't be near the 1000 a person deal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 17, 2020, 09:06:00 AM

I think I got like 700 bucks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 09:07:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 17, 2020, 09:06:00 AM

I think I got like 700 bucks.

Yeah, I'm recalling somewhere in that neighborhood. Even as a newlywed making peanuts compared to now, that didn't make a whole lot of difference to me. I'm not sure $1000 would either to be honest. For us, it'd just go in the vacation fund for when this all blows over, which I suppose would help those industries recover.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 09:10:11 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 17, 2020, 09:06:00 AM

I think I got like 700 bucks.

I did too.

True story...
Monday..my washer died
Tuesday..my dryer died
Wednesday...there's a $700 check in the mail.

Put that $700 immediately into the durable goods market.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 17, 2020, 09:11:51 AM

Mine was $800.  I think it came as part of our tax refund.  I immediately paid off what was left on my car loan. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 09:24:33 AM

I'm supposed to get roughly $1000 for my tax return this year. I'd take another $1000 on top of that. Lord, that would actually solve almost every problem I have right now  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 17, 2020, 09:29:11 AM

My company just noted that the House passed a second Coronavirus response bill.  It will head to the Senate, who may tweak it, but will likely pass it. 

The bill has provisions to expand FMLA to cover taking leave of work to care for Coronavirus-affected family members (just like taking a leave of absence or maternity leave....you'd probably have to use PTO, then Short Term Disability to generate income while off).

There are also provisions to require certain employers to provide 80 hours (two weeks) of paid sick leave to employees who are sick from the Coronavirus.

A breakdown of the bill is here:  http://go.ciab.com/e/324401/onavirus-response-package-html/236dz9/404904578?h=o4gmnDtVEiqoe9pDrB4_a1fJiSMzE0G-nAM50HDpjaw

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 17, 2020, 09:32:18 AM

200 nurses in CT that have been exposed have been told not to report to work. They are being furloughed because we have no way of testing them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 09:36:50 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 17, 2020, 09:32:18 AM

200 nurses in CT that have been exposed have been told not to report to work. They are being furloughed because we have no way of testing them.

200 nurses? Cripes...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I think there are better ways of addressing the needs caused by COVID-19.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 09:49:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I think there are better ways of addressing the needs caused by COVID-19.

What ideas do you have, then? I'm sincerely curious what better ideas you have to $1000, which would honestly be the home-run solution to getting a lot of Americans like me through this, if I'm unfortunate enough to be out of work because of this. If we flatten the curve in a short period of time, that $1000 will be huge to so many people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 09:50:47 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 09:49:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I think there are better ways of addressing the needs caused by COVID-19.

What ideas do you have, then?

Have you considered prayer?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 09:52:08 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 09:50:47 AM

Have you considered prayer?

I considered it once, and then sometime in my 5th year of existence I asked my mom, "Then who created God?" and she told me not to ask questions like that and it was at that moment I realized religion itself may not be bullshit but the things it does to logic and reason are poisonous. Although I wouldn't be able to articulate it that eloquently for many more years. *spits*

... IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 17, 2020, 10:09:34 AM

It's an interesting thought exercise to consider what things will look like 6 - 12
months from now. How many bars, eateries,  etc will be gone...if any. How many
unemployed? Also, entrepreneurs are constantly thinking ahead of the curve, anticipating
the needs of the populous. I'd like to train my brain to operate this way. Also, the big
question--how many will die? Will someone I know succumb? Crazy ordeal to live
through! Hopefully we learn valuable lessons.

Posting from my phone creates issues here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 17, 2020, 10:11:30 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 09:49:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I think there are better ways of addressing the needs caused by COVID-19.

What ideas do you have, then? I'm sincerely curious what better ideas you have to $1000, which would honestly be the home-run solution to getting a lot of Americans like me through this, if I'm unfortunate enough to be out of work because of this. If we flatten the curve in a short period of time, that $1000 will be huge to so many people.

I have three friends that don't know when their next day of work with pay will be. $1000 would at least keep a roof over their head for another month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:11:55 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 09:49:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I think there are better ways of addressing the needs caused by COVID-19.

What ideas do you have, then? I'm sincerely curious what better ideas you have to $1000, which would honestly be the home-run solution to getting a lot of Americans like me through this, if I'm unfortunate enough to be out of work because of this. If we flatten the curve in a short period of time, that $1000 will be huge to so many people.

I'm open to getting you the money.  How many people are like you?   A million? Ten million?   A hundred million?  There are just over 200 million Americans over the age of 18.   Rather than arbitrarily spend $200 BILLION dollars to help Bruce Springsteen, Angelina Jolie, and you, why not send the money to you?   

Why not open the unemployment program to provide 100% of the average of the last four weeks, from day one, as opposed to what is it now, 65%?   Why not reimburse all employers 100% for full pay over the next 45 to 60 days, regardless of whether the business stays open or not?  Why not send a check to any person over the age of 18 that has a reported income of less than $x0,000?

I'm not suggesting that you suffer, I'm suggesting that we can do better than a multi-BILLION endeavor that has a transaction cost of almost as much as the benefit conferred.   Cuomo ( :heart :heart) talked already at length about the finances of New York state, vis-a-vis revenue and the added burden of the virus; it's that plus an order of magnitude (at least) on the Federal Government, who has just allowed people who owe taxes to sit on that for 90 days interest and penalty free. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 10:13:30 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:11:55 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 09:49:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I think there are better ways of addressing the needs caused by COVID-19.

What ideas do you have, then? I'm sincerely curious what better ideas you have to $1000, which would honestly be the home-run solution to getting a lot of Americans like me through this, if I'm unfortunate enough to be out of work because of this. If we flatten the curve in a short period of time, that $1000 will be huge to so many people.

I'm open to getting you the money.  How many people are like you?   A million? Ten million?   A hundred million?  There are just over 200 million Americans over the age of 18.   Rather than arbitrarily spend $200 BILLION dollars to help Bruce Springsteen, Angelina Jolie, and you, why not send the money to you?   

Why not open the unemployment program to provide 100% of the average of the last four weeks, from day one, as opposed to what is it now, 65%?   Why not reimburse all employers 100% for full pay over the next 45 to 60 days, regardless of whether the business stays open or not?  Why not send a check to any person over the age of 18 that has a reported income of less than $x0,000?

I'm not suggesting that you suffer, I'm suggesting that we can do better than a multi-BILLION endeavor that has a transaction cost of almost as much as the benefit conferred.   Cuomo ( :heart :heart) talked already at length about the finances of New York state, vis-a-vis revenue and the added burden of the virus; it's that plus an order of magnitude (at least) on the Federal Government, who has just allowed people who owe taxes to sit on that for 90 days interest and penalty free.

See, I asked that question because I knew you'd respond with some actual ideas. I like that. :hifive:

I never implied you were suggesting I or anyone else suffer, I was sincerely asking for legit ideas, so I appreciate that :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 17, 2020, 10:22:19 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/17/this-is-like-a-war-view-from-italys-coronavirus-frontline

7500 dead in Italy with a 7%+ mortality rate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 10:25:38 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 17, 2020, 10:22:19 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/17/this-is-like-a-war-view-from-italys-coronavirus-frontline

7500 dead in Italy with a 7%+ mortality rate.

I think you misread that; 7500 dead worldwide. 2158 in Italy. Average age of deaths is 80.3 over there; youngest is stated to be 39. Absolutely tragic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 17, 2020, 10:27:25 AM

Actually it was 2158 yesterday at local 6pm. Today update is gonna pop up in half an hour.


EDIT: Katt, you Shinobi you

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 17, 2020, 10:29:32 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 10:25:38 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 17, 2020, 10:22:19 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/17/this-is-like-a-war-view-from-italys-coronavirus-frontline

7500 dead in Italy with a 7%+ mortality rate.

I think you misread that; 7500 dead worldwide. 2158 in Italy. Average age of deaths is 80.3 over there; youngest is stated to be 39. Absolutely tragic.

Whoops  :lol I guess that's what I get for reading and running a meeting at the same time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 10:32:27 AM

*blows smoke off gun barrel* :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 17, 2020, 10:40:12 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 10:32:27 AM

*blows smoke off gun barrel* :hat

:saywhen:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 10:44:43 AM

So last week I was sent home cause I had a runny nose and then on Friday my boss made a plan for my coworker and I to rotate days coming in since we share a small office, to keep social distance.  I stayed home yetserday as per the plan.  I get in today and my coworker is here.  He said our boss told him to come in so I flipped out on my boss who after going on about needing to get work done then came back and said it was all a mistake on his end.  He is also still pushing for both of us to work overnight tomorrow even though there is a 8pm curfew in the state.  I'm really quite unhappy with his leadership in these times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 17, 2020, 10:47:26 AM

Meh, sucks for you, hope your boss will organize your work better.

What happens when you're caught out of curfew? here you can supposedly walk around "freely", but your movements must be accounted for and you have to carry with you a document to sign in case of a police check, where you take rersponsability for being outside for legit reasons and that you're not on quarantine (otherwise you will be fined or reported).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 10:48:25 AM

No idea, I'm not entirely sure it's enforced.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:50:55 AM

Just announced they are kicking almost everyone out of the dorms where I work. Which means (for me) that I will likely lose most of my clients. Crap.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:55:09 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 17, 2020, 10:29:32 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 10:25:38 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 17, 2020, 10:22:19 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/17/this-is-like-a-war-view-from-italys-coronavirus-frontline

7500 dead in Italy with a 7%+ mortality rate.

I think you misread that; 7500 dead worldwide. 2158 in Italy. Average age of deaths is 80.3 over there; youngest is stated to be 39. Absolutely tragic.

Whoops  :lol I guess that's what I get for reading and running a meeting at the same time.

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:55:57 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:50:55 AM

Just announced they are kicking almost everyone out of the dorms where I work. Which means (for me) that I will likely lose most of my clients. Crap.

Can you do something like "Telemental"?   My therapy every week is through Facetime and it works beautifully for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:59:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:55:57 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:50:55 AM

Just announced they are kicking almost everyone out of the dorms where I work. Which means (for me) that I will likely lose most of my clients. Crap.

Can you do something like "Telemental"?   My therapy every week is through Facetime and it works beautifully for me.

Not as of now, but I believe we're working toward that. I still will lose a lot of my clients because of it though. And personally? My style of therapy really doesn't translate well to telehealth. I am very much into language, body language, pauses, etc that convey the message that go beyond what our words say. Teletherapy is just not really built for that. It'll be what it is and if it's what I have to do, then such is life, but my sessions will definitely suffer from it.

Also forgot if I posted it here, but the testing centers in New York all shut down, so my licensing test is completely up in the air.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 11:11:59 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:59:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:55:57 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:50:55 AM

Just announced they are kicking almost everyone out of the dorms where I work. Which means (for me) that I will likely lose most of my clients. Crap.

Can you do something like "Telemental"?   My therapy every week is through Facetime and it works beautifully for me.

Not as of now, but I believe we're working toward that. I still will lose a lot of my clients because of it though. And personally? My style of therapy really doesn't translate well to telehealth. I am very much into language, body language, pauses, etc that convey the message that go beyond what our words say. Teletherapy is just not really built for that. It'll be what it is and if it's what I have to do, then such is life, but my sessions will definitely suffer from it.

Also forgot if I posted it here, but the testing centers in New York all shut down, so my licensing test is completely up in the air.

Bear in mind, too, that I had almost three years of in-person therapy with my therapist, so we had an established rhythm. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 11:16:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 11:11:59 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:59:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:55:57 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 17, 2020, 10:50:55 AM

Just announced they are kicking almost everyone out of the dorms where I work. Which means (for me) that I will likely lose most of my clients. Crap.

Can you do something like "Telemental"?   My therapy every week is through Facetime and it works beautifully for me.

Not as of now, but I believe we're working toward that. I still will lose a lot of my clients because of it though. And personally? My style of therapy really doesn't translate well to telehealth. I am very much into language, body language, pauses, etc that convey the message that go beyond what our words say. Teletherapy is just not really built for that. It'll be what it is and if it's what I have to do, then such is life, but my sessions will definitely suffer from it.

Also forgot if I posted it here, but the testing centers in New York all shut down, so my licensing test is completely up in the air.

Bear in mind, too, that I had almost three years of in-person therapy with my therapist, so we had an established rhythm.

Oh, it totally has its merits. I have nothing against telethapy. It just doesn't work with my style very well. That's all. I know a lot of other therapists where I would would LOVE to do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 17, 2020, 12:54:51 PM

My wife's job just shut down for at least 2 weeks. Yay to no money coming in from her!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 17, 2020, 01:38:20 PM

Awww Jordan made a video for Italy (and not only), playing a piano version of Caruso which is a famous song by italian artist Lucio Dalla  :heart

https://www.facebook.com/jordanrudessofficial/videos/499654027393436/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: frogprog on March 17, 2020, 01:38:54 PM

I tried to sign up with New Jersey's unemployment office today.....5 times. Their website is crashed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 02:26:10 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 10:44:43 AM

So last week I was sent home cause I had a runny nose and then on Friday my boss made a plan for my coworker and I to rotate days coming in since we share a small office, to keep social distance.  I stayed home yetserday as per the plan.  I get in today and my coworker is here.  He said our boss told him to come in so I flipped out on my boss who after going on about needing to get work done then came back and said it was all a mistake on his end.  He is also still pushing for both of us to work overnight tomorrow even though there is a 8pm curfew in the state.  I'm really quite unhappy with his leadership in these times.

My boss later admitted he hasn't been watching the news  :facepalm: Once I shared an article about the curfew he changed his mind and our overnight work tomorrow is cancelled and my coworker and I are back on the rotation that he set last week.  I don't know why I needed to explain the severity of this to him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 02:33:18 PM

Gonna pass the 200k case total today/overnight.  Another 345 dead in Italy  :sadpanda: :|  and still growing at over 10% daily.
 2000 new cases in Germany - that's almost a 30% increase! :omg:

I really don't know the word to use is that is 10x worse than 'scary' about how much worse things are going to get before they get better.  Doubling every 6 days means there will be a million world-wide cases around the beginning of next month.

Jesus.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 02:26:10 PM

I don't know why I needed to explain the severity of this to him.

Now you know how I felt last week

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2020, 02:41:20 PM

My employer has asked most of our staff to work from home for the foreseeable future.

Of course, my department is one that is considered "essential" so we are still coming in.  But we have spaced everyone out as much as possible so that we aren't sitting as close to each other as normal.

I imagine that they will eventually shut down the office and we will all be working from home.

My wife is already working from home, but she is accustomed to already doing that 2-3 days a week.

Starting Thursday, my kid's high school changes over to online learning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 02:42:48 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 02:33:18 PM

Gonna pass the 200k case total today/overnight.  Another 345 dead in Italy  :sadpanda: :|  and still growing at over 10% daily.
 2000 new cases in Germany - that's almost a 30% increase! :omg:

I really don't know the word to use is that is 10x worse than 'scary' about how much worse things are going to get before they get better.  Doubling every 6 days means there will be a million world-wide cases around the beginning of next month.

Jesus.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 02:26:10 PM

I don't know why I needed to explain the severity of this to him.

Now you know how I felt last week

Yea, and MirrorMask too.  It honestly didn't click with me until Trump's speech last Thursday that this shit is really bad especially as I went to a concert last Tuesday.  Kind of felt like it hasn't truly spread yet.  And now I sit here wondering if most of us already have it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 02:49:02 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2020, 02:41:20 PM

Starting Thursday, my kid's high school changes over to online learning.

How do schools handle this when not every student has access to the Internet? Are those students penalized, do they just move on with classes with some people left behind? Does the school pass out laptops? How many schools can afford to do that? etc. I have so many questions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 02:52:27 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 02:49:02 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2020, 02:41:20 PM

Starting Thursday, my kid's high school changes over to online learning.

How do schools handle this when not every student has access to the Internet? Are those students penalized, do they just move on with classes with some people left behind? Does the school pass out laptops? How many schools can afford to do that? etc. I have so many questions.

At both of my son's high schools, each student is given a Chromebook. My youngest (junior in HS) starts home assignments tomorrow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 02:54:04 PM

I work out of the house to begin with; oddly my boss asked me to go in to the office.  I think he's confused. 

(I'm kidding; not only does nothing change for me, but I've actually been more busy the last two days than I've been in a while.  I think that tells me that people have been traveling TOO much.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 17, 2020, 02:55:59 PM

Brutally honest outlook for the restaurant industry...

https://www.eater.com/2020/3/16/21182291/restaurants-wont-survive-coronavirus-pandemic-without-bail-out?fbclid=IwAR3Q20beEfYH0UJ7-iYVYS17fp47k7ALfbtrtAvfJVOGsU6elr22yCz16gE (https://www.eater.com/2020/3/16/21182291/restaurants-wont-survive-coronavirus-pandemic-without-bail-out?fbclid=IwAR3Q20beEfYH0UJ7-iYVYS17fp47k7ALfbtrtAvfJVOGsU6elr22yCz16gE)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 02:56:15 PM

Great. It's in my town now. I'm not going to vote tonight.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 02:58:29 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 10:13:30 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 10:11:55 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 09:49:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 17, 2020, 08:50:10 AM

There are talks of just sending everyone $1000 here in the US to offset lost wages and stimulate the economy. I really don't know that's going to work too much when tons of stuff is just closed. It would prevent people from not being able to pay their rent or mortgage for another month or two, but that's about it. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will make much of a difference.

I think there are better ways of addressing the needs caused by COVID-19.

What ideas do you have, then? I'm sincerely curious what better ideas you have to $1000, which would honestly be the home-run solution to getting a lot of Americans like me through this, if I'm unfortunate enough to be out of work because of this. If we flatten the curve in a short period of time, that $1000 will be huge to so many people.

I'm open to getting you the money.  How many people are like you?   A million? Ten million?   A hundred million?  There are just over 200 million Americans over the age of 18.   Rather than arbitrarily spend $200 BILLION dollars to help Bruce Springsteen, Angelina Jolie, and you, why not send the money to you?   

Why not open the unemployment program to provide 100% of the average of the last four weeks, from day one, as opposed to what is it now, 65%?   Why not reimburse all employers 100% for full pay over the next 45 to 60 days, regardless of whether the business stays open or not?  Why not send a check to any person over the age of 18 that has a reported income of less than $x0,000?

I'm not suggesting that you suffer, I'm suggesting that we can do better than a multi-BILLION endeavor that has a transaction cost of almost as much as the benefit conferred.   Cuomo ( :heart :heart) talked already at length about the finances of New York state, vis-a-vis revenue and the added burden of the virus; it's that plus an order of magnitude (at least) on the Federal Government, who has just allowed people who owe taxes to sit on that for 90 days interest and penalty free.

See, I asked that question because I knew you'd respond with some actual ideas. I like that. :hifive:

I never implied you were suggesting I or anyone else suffer, I was sincerely asking for legit ideas, so I appreciate that :)

By the way, Connecticut just revised the unemployment requirements; they've waived the "must be looking for work" requirement, they've waived the waiting period, so people can collect from day one, and I think Ned (our governor, Ned Lamont) said he's looking into the amount of reimbursement.  Maybe he reads this forum.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on March 17, 2020, 03:01:29 PM

I overheard people at work talking about Pennsylvania closing down liquor stores. I don't live there but it inspired me to go out on my lunch break and buy two bigass bottles of Evan Williams bourbon. You know, just in case. And I wasn't a dick. There was still more Evan Williams left on the shelf.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 17, 2020, 03:07:04 PM

My line of work - musical theatre - is basically shot until next november, plus this virus' peculiar modus operandi is killing my target audience demographic.

Although domestic sex is bound to experience quite the revival, I have way too much time on my hands




Unless ...




runs to roulette thread



 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 03:09:24 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 17, 2020, 03:07:04 PM

runs to roulette thread

 :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 03:14:23 PM

Quote from: Herrick on March 17, 2020, 03:01:29 PM

I overheard people at work talking about Pennsylvania closing down liquor stores. I don't live there but it inspired me to go out on my lunch break and buy two bigass bottles of Evan Williams bourbon. You know, just in case. And I wasn't a dick. There was still more Evan Williams left on the shelf.

I saw that yesterday and lines were crazy from people stocking up.  I may grab some extra Titos soon in case this happens in NJ.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 03:15:34 PM

I spent $180 on beer and wine last night! :lol



I heard they could go to some sort of drive thru model.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2020, 03:22:10 PM

I did see somewhere that restaurants will be allowed to serve take out booze.  That alone is quite the change  :lol what will be interesting in years to come when people look back at this and notice all the sudden changes and what ends up sticking.  For example, some movies that were to be released in theaters are going right to streaming.  Maybe this is what actually kills movie theaters?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 17, 2020, 03:23:47 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 02:56:15 PM

Great. It's in my town now. I'm not going to vote tonight.

I voted absentee.  I think in Illinois you can apply for an absentee ballot pretty easily.  It won't help today, but something to keep in mind for the general election.  Hopefully this won't still be going on then, but it can't hurt to have the option.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 03:25:07 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 17, 2020, 03:23:47 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 02:56:15 PM

Great. It's in my town now. I'm not going to vote tonight.

I voted absentee.  I think in Illinois you can apply for an absentee ballot pretty easily.  It won't help today, but something to keep in mind for the general election.  Hopefully this won't still be going on then, but it can't hurt to have the option.

I don't like dealing with that, I like voting in person because it's literally a 5 minute walk from my place.

I also still write physical checks for half my bills.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 17, 2020, 03:26:52 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 17, 2020, 03:07:04 PM

runs to roulette thread

(https://media.giphy.com/media/JYZ397GsFrFtu/giphy.gif)

At least not until you finish up to Octavarium in the Scenes From My Memory thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 03:33:48 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 17, 2020, 03:07:04 PM

runs to roulette thread
 

Ah fock.  U gonna make me end my sabbatical one week into it!?!?!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 03:35:10 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 03:33:48 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 17, 2020, 03:07:04 PM

runs to roulette thread
 

Ah fock.  U gonna make me end my sabbatical one week into it!?!?!

I know, right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2020, 03:38:17 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 02:54:04 PM

I work out of the house to begin with; oddly my boss asked me to go in to the office.  I think he's confused. 

(I'm kidding; not only does nothing change for me, but I've actually been more busy the last two days than I've been in a while.  I think that tells me that people have been traveling TOO much.)

I've been working from home the past 10 years, so self-isolating is not a burden to the jingle.family at all.  We live in a small town, so we don't go out much to begin with.  jingle.kids are both home from school now - son's classes at college cancelled since they are more hands-on that you can't e-learn; daughter is online to finish the semester - including exams.

Bill... I too have been oddly busy with a bunch of little things the past two days.  It's very peculiar.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 17, 2020, 03:40:40 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 03:25:07 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 17, 2020, 03:23:47 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 02:56:15 PM

Great. It's in my town now. I'm not going to vote tonight.

I voted absentee.  I think in Illinois you can apply for an absentee ballot pretty easily.  It won't help today, but something to keep in mind for the general election.  Hopefully this won't still be going on then, but it can't hurt to have the option.

I don't like dealing with that, I like voting in person because it's literally a 5 minute walk from my place.

I also still write physical checks for half my bills.  :biggrin:

Which you can still do in normal situations.  If you have an absentee ballot, it doesn't mean you have to use it.  But if this is going on, or you're sick with a cold, or you were invited to spend the day with Fabio Lione and can't make it to the polls, you can still vote. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 17, 2020, 03:55:19 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 17, 2020, 03:40:40 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 03:25:07 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 17, 2020, 03:23:47 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 02:56:15 PM

Great. It's in my town now. I'm not going to vote tonight.

I voted absentee.  I think in Illinois you can apply for an absentee ballot pretty easily.  It won't help today, but something to keep in mind for the general election.  Hopefully this won't still be going on then, but it can't hurt to have the option.

I don't like dealing with that, I like voting in person because it's literally a 5 minute walk from my place.

I also still write physical checks for half my bills.  :biggrin:

Which you can still do in normal situations.  If you have an absentee ballot, it doesn't mean you have to use it.  But if this is going on, or you're sick with a cold, or you were invited to spend the day with Fabio Lione and can't make it to the polls, you can still vote. :)

Yeah but I probably won't 'cause I just don't want to  :lol

But yeah, I'm staying home. Even though I never have lines to wait in and there's never many people when I go in, I'm avoiding the place entirely. I'm gonna brave Walgreen's for some dish soap and beard oil and hopefully I don't have to break anyone's legs in the process

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 17, 2020, 03:56:20 PM

9k+ infected in Germany as of now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 17, 2020, 04:40:56 PM

I am pretty much always a guy that will worry when experts/scientists worry, so I was taking this seriously. But fuck me, this glimpse so far has not been pretty at all.

Our government has been very clear and chose for a semi lockdown scenario where the aim is for many Dutch people to get ill over a longer period of time, so that we will develop immunity and can form a shield of sorts for those vulnerable. Honestly, it seems like the only legitimate option. At least in the setting of our country. Just letting matters proceed as normal will get you into a very dire situation very quickly due to overloaded hospitals and complete lockdown will likely mean you can look forward to another one, because this virus is not out of this world and will not be for a long time to come.

I appreciate our government presenting all the options and explaining why they picked their current strategy. Not a voter for the current leading (right wing) party in the slightest, but I appreciate how professional and concise they are handling this crisis thus far. I was watching other leaders and man, some of them have had.... interesting ways to try and tackle this (Trump and Boris Johnson for example).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 17, 2020, 05:37:01 PM

Not sure if this is accurate or up to date, but there are 109 deaths in the US, and 50 here in WA state(!?)

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 02:49:02 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2020, 02:41:20 PM

Starting Thursday, my kid's high school changes over to online learning.

How do schools handle this when not every student has access to the Internet? Are those students penalized, do they just move on with classes with some people left behind? Does the school pass out laptops? How many schools can afford to do that? etc. I have so many questions.

Having a wife who works at a school so having a little inside info, they are totally making this up as they go, and the results will vary by district. Ours is having teachers communicate with parents to provide them with online learning resources. But there is no guided education, testing, or any expectations set up for families to do anything. I believe the immediate goal is just getting something out to parents for their kids to do something so they have some structure and aren't bored during the day.

One local district isn't doing anything, because not all families have internet access, that whole equity thing...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2020, 06:45:44 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 17, 2020, 05:37:01 PM

...they are totally making this up as they go, and the results will vary by district.

Not just the schools, but I have some intel that is telling me the same thing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 17, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 17, 2020, 05:37:01 PM

Not sure if this is accurate or up to date, but there are 109 deaths in the US, and 50 here in WA state(!?)

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 02:49:02 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2020, 02:41:20 PM

Starting Thursday, my kid's high school changes over to online learning.

How do schools handle this when not every student has access to the Internet? Are those students penalized, do they just move on with classes with some people left behind? Does the school pass out laptops? How many schools can afford to do that? etc. I have so many questions.

Having a wife who works at a school so having a little inside info, they are totally making this up as they go, and the results will vary by district. Ours is having teachers communicate with parents to provide them with online learning resources. But there is no guided education, testing, or any expectations set up for families to do anything. I believe the immediate goal is just getting something out to parents for their kids to do something so they have some structure and aren't bored during the day.

One local district isn't doing anything, because not all families have internet access, that whole equity thing...

Yeah, and it's been really tough on a lot of parents who don't know what to do.  This has put a wrench in the lives of a lot of people.  Fortunately for my family we have been homeschooling our children since kindergarten, so it's kind of business as usual for us.  But there's a single Mom in our neighborhood who works full time and can't school her children, so we offered to help her out and her kids come to our place right now.

Also, I work from home most days so that didn't really change for me either, except that now I don't go into the office at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 17, 2020, 07:52:49 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 17, 2020, 03:55:19 PM

But yeah, I'm staying home. Even though I never have lines to wait in and there's never many people when I go in, I'm avoiding the place entirely. I'm gonna brave Walgreen's for some dish soap and beard oil and hopefully I don't have to break anyone's legs in the process

I was able to pop into my Walgreens after my nightshift yesterday, 6am and no one was there.  Scored a couple dozen eggs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2020, 08:03:44 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kansas-school-buildings-ordered-closed-statewide-for-remainder-of-academic-year/ar-BB11kwGs?li=BBnbfcL


Damn..the rest of the school year??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 17, 2020, 08:05:21 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 17, 2020, 08:03:44 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kansas-school-buildings-ordered-closed-statewide-for-remainder-of-academic-year/ar-BB11kwGs?li=BBnbfcL


Damn..the rest of the school year??

It's Kansas. Not a big loss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 17, 2020, 08:38:29 PM

Our state superintendent was on the radio today and said they are working on plans in case school closures extend into the fall. While I appreciate that the districts are planning for such a contingency, in addition to the short term work they are doing to make sure students have access to learning now, I wouldn't have gone on the radio and said that on March 17.

Also want to give credit to all the grocery store employees out there who are working through this. Every time I've been to my local store, the shelves have been for the most part stocked outside of the usual items that people are hoarding, the staff has been friendly, and it seems like everything is being done to make sure grocery shopping is disrupted as little as possible and customers are able to get the goods they need.

Also saw some stores are going to set up special hours for the elderly/impaired/individuals with ailments so they can shop in a less compromised environment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on March 17, 2020, 11:33:55 PM

Our Governor (Nevada), just ordered the closure of all non essential businesses statewide. Essential meaning fire, police, transit, and health care services, and places that provide food, shelter, or social services for disadvantaged populations, pharmacies, grocery stores, drug and convenience stores, banks and financial institutions, hardware stores, and gas stations. About half of my work would fall under the non essential category. Restaurants can stay open if they can provide delivery or takeout service, no dine-in.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) the company my wife works for falls under health care and the owner of the company just announced that all essential employees (which my wife falls under) will be getting a 5 dollar an hour raise or equivalent for salaried employees.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 18, 2020, 02:08:24 AM

Anyway, if a couple of years ago someone would have told us "In the first half of 2020 something will happen that will require everyone to be careful with their movements and to limit their personal freedoms, while major sporting events will be suspended, the economy will take a hit in all categories, and hospitals will be full", I'm sure everyone's reaction would have been "d'uh, of course Trump provoked World War III".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 06:14:31 AM

I just watched Bill Gates’ 2015 TED talk on “the next outbreak”. Boy, he nailed it. Sure wish people of power and influence had heeded that warning and advice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 18, 2020, 07:21:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 06:14:31 AM

I just watched Bill Gates’ 2015 TED talk on “the next outbreak”. Boy, he nailed it. Sure wish people of power and influence had heeded that warning and advice.

Yeah, Bill Gates is actually a very well informed person in general. Recently he met up with a professor from our institute to talk about certain scientific subjects. I am inclined to say that when he presents something, he bases it on well founded information from experts that are held in high regard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 07:38:24 AM

Thankfully, starting today we're only allowing one customer at a time into the office. Fortunately the load has been very light this week anyway but this will be nice since there's 2 of us in here and it's not that big in the first place (and we have about a month of work still ready to go).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 07:45:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 06:14:31 AM

I just watched Bill Gates’ 2015 TED talk on “the next outbreak”. Boy, he nailed it. Sure wish people of power and influence had heeded that warning and advice.

You know, not to direct this right at you Chad but it's a general statement about this TED talk thing that he did. I get he's a smart guy and all but c'mon.....it doesn't or didn't take Nostradamus to know or figure out a large scale pandemic is/was the greatest threat to humanity. Or, that....given the global population that it's an ever increasing probability.

I get that he's Bill Gate's and all but I've seen this thing being spread around the internet like he's some sort of prophet. I'd wager to say that 90% of the DTF forumer's knew this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 07:53:09 AM

https://m.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENCE/World-Health-Organization-backs-call-to-avoid-ibuprofen-for-coronavirus-621408/amp (https://m.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENCE/World-Health-Organization-backs-call-to-avoid-ibuprofen-for-coronavirus-621408/amp)

also, two towns over starting wednesday will have drive through testing open.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 18, 2020, 07:53:21 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 17, 2020, 04:40:56 PM

Our government has been very clear and chose for a semi lockdown scenario where the aim is for many Dutch people to get ill over a longer period of time, so that we will develop immunity and can form a shield of sorts for those vulnerable. Honestly, it seems like the only legitimate option. At least in the setting of our country. Just letting matters proceed as normal will get you into a very dire situation very quickly due to overloaded hospitals and complete lockdown will likely mean you can look forward to another one, because this virus is not out of this world and will not be for a long time to come.

Fellow Dutchie here. Adding to your post a little, as I do not think 'herd immunity' is the goal in itself, but it might just be the result of what's happening. A permanent lock-down as some other countries are doing kind-of does the exact same thing, but spread out over an even longer period of time. This illness is definitely going to kill people, but it's not so bad that *everybody* will die from it. The bottle-neck is hospital capacity, but this doesn't mean we need to lock everybody up in their own homes as a precaution, that would merely postpone the majority of infections to whenever you stop the lockdown (case in point: China is afraid to stop their lockdown at this moment, because that would allow a second wave of illnesses). Our government chose for 'maximum control', as our Prime Minister said, meaning people will get sick - that's inevitable - but spread out over time. The 'immunity' will be a result of this, but is not a 'goal' in itself. In an ideal situation, people stay away from each other enough so that as little people as possible get sick - that's the whole point of working from home, closing schools/restuarants etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 08:11:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 07:45:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 06:14:31 AM

I just watched Bill Gates’ 2015 TED talk on “the next outbreak”. Boy, he nailed it. Sure wish people of power and influence had heeded that warning and advice.

You know, not to direct this right at you Chad but it's a general statement about this TED talk thing that he did. I get he's a smart guy and all but c'mon.....it doesn't or didn't take Nostradamus to know or figure out a large scale pandemic is/was the greatest threat to humanity. Or, that....given the global population that it's an ever increasing probability.

I get that he's Bill Gate's and all but I've seen this thing being spread around the internet like he's some sort of prophet. I'd wager to say that 90% of the DTF forumer's knew this.

Fair enough .... but what did the world do about it?  Seems as though we sat back and waited for this tsunami to come ashore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 18, 2020, 08:15:13 AM

Just like we're waiting for a major city to be flooded by rising sea levels or for a bacteria imprisoned in the ice to be released once again. And then we'll go find videos of scientists talking about the dangers of global warming saying that they "predicted it".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 08:23:05 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 08:11:51 AM

Fair enough .... but what did the world do about it?  Seems as though we sat back and waited for this tsunami to come ashore.

Well....now you've opened up a great topic probably best suited for P/R. 'We'.....mankind.....ignore a lot of things that should be blatantly obvious (one example being still using fossil fuels when true clean energy is more abundant and practical) until "all of a sudden" it's an issue. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 08:28:38 AM

The company that hosts our data center (where I report to work) sent out a notice that only critical work should be a reason why someone should be on site.  They seperated the two securirt guards to not work in the same room and they cut back half the staff to rotate.  Meanwhile, another company rents out office space for business continuity and they are all here packed in their office space.  That seems to make no sense, go work from home people!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 18, 2020, 09:03:40 AM

The didn't close our building down, they are just strongly suggesting that we work from home now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 09:04:35 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 08:11:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 07:45:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 06:14:31 AM

I just watched Bill Gates’ 2015 TED talk on “the next outbreak”. Boy, he nailed it. Sure wish people of power and influence had heeded that warning and advice.

You know, not to direct this right at you Chad but it's a general statement about this TED talk thing that he did. I get he's a smart guy and all but c'mon.....it doesn't or didn't take Nostradamus to know or figure out a large scale pandemic is/was the greatest threat to humanity. Or, that....given the global population that it's an ever increasing probability.

I get that he's Bill Gate's and all but I've seen this thing being spread around the internet like he's some sort of prophet. I'd wager to say that 90% of the DTF forumer's knew this.

Fair enough .... but what did the world do about it?  Seems as though we sat back and waited for this tsunami to come ashore.

At the risk of devolving this conversation, the spread of this disease has information that we can use in non-pandemic areas.  China's response to this was about CHINA, the country, and not about it's people, any other country, or the people of those countries.  This has happened to them before (at least three times that I can count) over the past several decades, and they have consistently not given a rat's ass about any individual Chinese citizen, nor their role in policing their own back yard for the good of the world.  What makes ANY of us watching that think they will do the right thing for:
- labor working conditions;
- climate change;
- patent/intellectual property rights;
- general human rights;
- currency regulation and international trade

I'm one of the few, unfortunately, but I've been pointing at China for almost a decade as our greatest threat across the board, and yet, every election "Putin this, Russia that, nanny-nanny-NAH-na."  Not that Russia are to be ignored, but they, at least, have shown some credibility and some pragmatic willingness to work with us for the greater good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 09:21:08 AM

Apparently people finally started hoarding stuff here in Moscow too. No toilet paper and no rice/buckwheat/that kind of shit either, both grocery stores I frequent had empty shelves. Not too worried about it yet, more worried about the disease itself, but it's kinda fascinating to see it all happen, to be honest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 18, 2020, 09:29:46 AM

Quote from: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 09:21:08 AM

Not too worried about it yet, more worried about the disease itself, but it's kinda fascinating to see it all happen, to be honest.

Yeah, uh, how can I say it without sounding like an asshole....

First of all, there's no sugarcouting this tragedy, if you think "just elder people die from it" try to imagine how horrific and brutal it is to die alone in isolation, in ICUs, and for the survivors to not be even able to hold their relatives' hand one last time.... this is beyond horrible.

Having stated the obvious, I remember years ago stumbling on a "dark thoughts about 9/11" page, where people were venting what was on their mind, especially the non-PC things. I remember a couple of comments that were "I'm sorry for the victims but come on, there must surely have been many assholes among them, it was the WTC" and "I'm a journalist, I never had so much fun in reporting the crazy news of that day".

Now, none of this pandemic is anything even remotely close to "fun". But as you said, it's still fascinating to live such a huge curveball in the normality of our lives. The sympathy for people suffering for it IS there, but at the same time, while I would never, ever call any of this fun, it's still something to live through. I never thought one day I would be packing my computer from work hoping to get home as soon as possible and never leave it for at least two weeks. It does not excite me or maked me happy, but.... a kind of fascination, as you put it, is there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 18, 2020, 09:34:40 AM

Quote from: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 09:21:08 AM

Apparently people finally started hoarding stuff here in Moscow too. No toilet paper and no rice/buckwheat/that kind of shit either, both grocery stores I frequent had empty shelves. Not too worried about it yet, more worried about the disease itself, but it's kinda fascinating to see it all happen, to be honest.

While the hoarding mentality doesn't surprise me, it does bum me out quite a bit. There are some pretty depressing stories out there of desperate people driving around to find stuff and not being able to because the shelves are now empty. And of course people have hoarded things they didn't even need to (I read that toilet paper shortages weren't even expected). Sigh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 09:41:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 18, 2020, 09:29:46 AM

Quote from: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 09:21:08 AM

Not too worried about it yet, more worried about the disease itself, but it's kinda fascinating to see it all happen, to be honest.

Yeah, uh, how can I say it without sounding like an asshole....

First of all, there's no sugarcouting this tragedy, if you think "just elder people die from it" try to imagine how horrific and brutal it is to die alone in isolation, in ICUs, and for the survivors to not be even able to hold their relatives' hand one last time.... this is beyond horrible.

Having stated the obvious, I remember years ago stumbling on a "dark thoughts about 9/11" page, where people were venting what was on their mind, especially the non-PC things. I remember a couple of comments that were "I'm sorry for the victims but come on, there must surely have been many assholes among them, it was the WTC" and "I'm a journalist, I never had so much fun in reporting the crazy news of that day".

Now, none of this pandemic is anything even remotely close to "fun". But as you said, it's still fascinating to live such a huge curveball in the normality of our lives. The sympathy for people suffering for it IS there, but at the same time, while I would never, ever call any of this fun, it's still something to live through. I never thought one day I would be packing my computer from work hoping to get home as soon as possible and never leave it for at least two weeks. It does not excite me or maked me happy, but.... a kind of fascination, as you put it, is there.

No no, I think you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear enough. I'm quite worried about the pandemic itself. If I could stop going to work, I would self-isolate in an instant. I stopped going anywhere except to work and to the grocery stores when needed. I'm not worried about the hoarding though, because there's nothing I can do about it, and also because I have enough frozen meats and other stuff at home to probably last a month even if everything closes for good. To clarify, I'm also not hoarding, my two freezers are just always full for some reason.

And I never said it was fun, but yes, I do find it highly fascinating to see how the world reacts to this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 18, 2020, 09:48:03 AM

^ I get the idea that MirrorMask misread your first post as 'nor worried about the disease', but maybe that's just me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 09:49:05 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 18, 2020, 09:48:03 AM

^ I get the idea that MirrorMask misread your first post as 'nor worried about the disease', but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, I thought that too. That absolutely not what I was saying.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 09:52:30 AM

TBH, while I am only one dude so my hoarding isn't much and I haven't overdone it at all, I can kind of understand those with large families doing it.  People's supplies will dry out real quick if you can't leave the house for a bit and have 6 bodies to feed.  I don't support the people going nuts and treating others poorly, but at this point, getting your fully supply on seems appropriate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 18, 2020, 09:57:30 AM

Don't worry Evermind, maybe I wasn't clear, but I never thought you were taking this lightly. I emphatised the dangers of the disease to make sure *I* wasn't the one taking it lightly when I was saying that there was a certain - and not funny - fascination in seeing such a life-disrupting event come to pass, don't worry  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 18, 2020, 10:08:21 AM

Did Trump just call this The Chinese Virus??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 18, 2020, 10:09:15 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 18, 2020, 07:53:21 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 17, 2020, 04:40:56 PM

Our government has been very clear and chose for a semi lockdown scenario where the aim is for many Dutch people to get ill over a longer period of time, so that we will develop immunity and can form a shield of sorts for those vulnerable. Honestly, it seems like the only legitimate option. At least in the setting of our country. Just letting matters proceed as normal will get you into a very dire situation very quickly due to overloaded hospitals and complete lockdown will likely mean you can look forward to another one, because this virus is not out of this world and will not be for a long time to come.

Fellow Dutchie here. Adding to your post a little, as I do not think 'herd immunity' is the goal in itself, but it might just be the result of what's happening. A permanent lock-down as some other countries are doing kind-of does the exact same thing, but spread out over an even longer period of time. This illness is definitely going to kill people, but it's not so bad that *everybody* will die from it. The bottle-neck is hospital capacity, but this doesn't mean we need to lock everybody up in their own homes as a precaution, that would merely postpone the majority of infections to whenever you stop the lockdown (case in point: China is afraid to stop their lockdown at this moment, because that would allow a second wave of illnesses). Our government chose for 'maximum control', as our Prime Minister said, meaning people will get sick - that's inevitable - but spread out over time. The 'immunity' will be a result of this, but is not a 'goal' in itself. In an ideal situation, people stay away from each other enough so that as little people as possible get sick - that's the whole point of working from home, closing schools/restuarants etc.

Yes, you are completely right. Though it seems to be a bit of a case of how to word things than a real difference in meaning. Technically the aim is to keep society going somewhat and alleviate the healthcare systems somewhat ("flatten the curve"), but practically, that means this will only end once a significant amount of people is immune via one way or another.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 07:45:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 06:14:31 AM

I just watched Bill Gates’ 2015 TED talk on “the next outbreak”. Boy, he nailed it. Sure wish people of power and influence had heeded that warning and advice.

You know, not to direct this right at you Chad but it's a general statement about this TED talk thing that he did. I get he's a smart guy and all but c'mon.....it doesn't or didn't take Nostradamus to know or figure out a large scale pandemic is/was the greatest threat to humanity. Or, that....given the global population that it's an ever increasing probability.

I get that he's Bill Gate's and all but I've seen this thing being spread around the internet like he's some sort of prophet. I'd wager to say that 90% of the DTF forumer's knew this.

I mean, I'd like to believe that but just like two weeks ago people over here were handwaving this virus despite the already concerning data. Hell, more and more people are saying no to vaccines these days, to the point some governments had to make that illegal indirectly because kids were dying or becoming severly ill again to the measles.

Fact is that, despite our experts warning us for many, many years, not a single government in the whole world was even remotely prepared. Yet Bill Gates here pleads for some simple, relatively cheap measurements (compared to say the risk of a war and the costs that come with that) beforehand to at least be able to handle matters better.

Simple and logical as that may seem, how many influential people have been advocating for that in the preceding years? Yes, he is just some dude in the end but the fact remains he was on point with this, with propositions on what to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on March 18, 2020, 10:09:44 AM

Hahaha, he's gonna get flamed so hard for calling it 'the Chinese virus'

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 18, 2020, 10:10:24 AM

Toilet paper hoarding?  They've never been in Maryland when the forecast is for three inches of snow. :angry:

Russia:  They're always willing to help us out.  The current occupant increases tariffs, and there they are selling tons of grains to China.

China:  The USA was so concerned about the workers, that 800K manufacturing jobs in Michigan were lost to them and other cheap labor countries.  Now, where are we reliant upon to get most of the pharmaceuticals we need now?

Hell, I won't let my dog eat Chinese (OK, he can rinse the plate from a take out order).  But, seriously, I've avoided all Chinese dog foods, treats, and toys for at least a decade.  Their standards and regulations are pathetic, and who knows what 'things' they allow in those products.  Better to be from Mexico or state side.

Sidenote:  the hostility here towards those who are Oriental/Asian.  As if a Chinese American, Japanese American, etc is to blame for what is going on.  Or any citizen from those countries.  Oy.

Governor Hogan gave a speech two hours before the WH presser.  The vehicle emission facilities will be made available for drive up testing.  Johns Hopkins is working on producing tests.  It's just not ready.  "We're not going to start doing this until we're ready.  Some states have started, but have crashed and failed miserably."   That, of course, wasn't mentioned later. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on March 18, 2020, 10:11:37 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2020, 10:08:21 AM

Did Trump just call this The Chinese Virus??

He's called it that a few days ago too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 10:12:23 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2020, 10:08:21 AM

Did Trump just call this The Chinese Virus??

Many times.

That we know that the Chinese are really to blame for how all of this is going.


As a Jew, this highly disturbs me. But I guess everyone loves a scapegoat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 18, 2020, 10:17:05 AM

Re: Hoarding

I had a very stressful day yesterday.  Work has been off the charts busy, I'm working from home, so my kids are hanging all over me begging me to play with them.  My boss and clients are expecting top-notch work and service from me.  So I'm juggling a lot and am being pulled in so many different directions at once.

I'm also trying to manage my emotions - the more that this ramps up and the governor announces new cases, new closures, and changes to our lives, the more it's affecting me.  In less than a week, I went from "eh, it's just the flu" to "holy shit, this is very bad."  I opened our only loaf of bread in the house and I was stressed out for HOURS as to whether we would be able to find bread in a grocery store around us once we used this one up.  I snapped at my kids for nagging me and just overall had a bad day. 

NOBODY should have to worry about whether or not they'll be able to feed their family.  We do not have to hoard.  We can still go to the store and buy your regularly weekly groceries.  Yet people are acting like they need to self quarantine for a long time and are shopping like that.  It's not fun to go out amid this craziness, but buying way too many groceries is putting extra stress on others.

My wife went to a grocery store today and bread products were limited to two each.  She saw a cashier tell a guy he couldn't buy 2 loaves of bread plus one pack of hamburger buns.  So at least stores are cracking down on the hoarding, and that eased a lot of my fears.  Seriously - I fretted over a loaf of fucking bread yesterday, and I never do things like that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 10:36:18 AM

Mrs.jingle told me someone in the WH Administration referred to it as "Kung Flu".  Normally, that would be kinda funny, but not now, and not from the WH.

And now I have the Village People stuck in my head.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

It's also not unheard of to refer to viruses based on their geographical origin. "Ebola" is a river in the Congo, for example.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 10:51:40 AM

I live in a damn rural community and the Wal-Mart is out of lunch meat.

Do any of these idiots panic shopping ever think about buying canned foods that will last for a long, long time? FFS, you know, sometimes I think life is easier when you're stupid, but in this case I don't know.

Imagine if there was an outbreak of smallpox. Cholera. Bubonic plague. People would shoot each other in the soap aisle

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

It's also not unheard of to refer to viruses based on their geographical origin. "Ebola" is a river in the Congo, for example.

But no one called it the African virus. Most people have no idea that Ebola is a river. Everyone knows what Chinese means. This is an example where being technically correct misses the implications which are more important.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 11:03:25 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2020, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

It's also not unheard of to refer to viruses based on their geographical origin. "Ebola" is a river in the Congo, for example.

But no one called it the African virus. Most people have no idea that Ebola is a river. Everyone knows what Chinese means. This is an example where being technically correct misses the implications which are more important.

Also Spanish Flu.  I think Trump has these valid reasons for calling it that to hide behind while he makes his attacks on China and to convince America the Chinese are at fault here. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 18, 2020, 11:09:46 AM

It's not like nobody knows the virus originated in China. Calling it that isn't going to help anything.

The Spanish Flu - just for your own interest - actually originated in the USA. It's only called this, because Spanish media were the first to report about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 11:13:52 AM

The Chinese government is at fault for not shutting down these markets long ago.  Hopefully this virus convinces them, but if it doesn't, hopefully the international community can apply enough pressure to get them to put an end to it. 

Having said that, calling it the Chinese flu is still a bad bad move.  First of all, it already has a name, so let's stick with that.  Also, it's not a flu. And most importantly, there's no need the fan the flames of racism.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 18, 2020, 11:14:19 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 10:51:40 AM

I live in a damn rural community and the Wal-Mart is out of lunch meat.

Do any of these idiots panic shopping ever think about buying canned foods that will last for a long, long time? FFS, you know, sometimes I think life is easier when you're stupid, but in this case I don't know.

Imagine if there was an outbreak of smallpox. Cholera. Bubonic plague. People would shoot each other in the soap aisle

I'm in the Chicago-metro area and Walmart is nearly out of everything.  We've had better luck shopping at smaller stores - Butera, Jewel, Aldi.  Smaller stores tend to be better stocked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 18, 2020, 11:16:23 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 10:51:40 AM

I live in a damn rural community and the Wal-Mart is out of lunch meat.

Do any of these idiots panic shopping ever think about buying canned foods that will last for a long, long time? FFS, you know, sometimes I think life is easier when you're stupid, but in this case I don't know.

Imagine if there was an outbreak of smallpox. Cholera. Bubonic plague. People would shoot each other in the soap aisle

You can freeze lunch meat. I do it all the time when the ham I like goes on sale. I do it with American cheese on the reg as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 11:19:20 AM

That's how I end up with full freezers. Buy what I like and see on sale, freeze it, have it whenever you want.

I'm not sure if this is what happens or if people are indeed just panic buying, but yeah, that's a valid strategy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 18, 2020, 11:22:04 AM

I am now convinced Donald Trump is a bona fide genius and master of deception.

He says Chinese Virus and, hickory dickory dock, everyone focuses on PC semantics while forgetting to crucify his arse for calling the current world health crisis a hoax one week ago, losing a lot of precious time.

That's masterful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 11:26:31 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 18, 2020, 11:14:19 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 10:51:40 AM

I live in a damn rural community and the Wal-Mart is out of lunch meat.

Do any of these idiots panic shopping ever think about buying canned foods that will last for a long, long time? FFS, you know, sometimes I think life is easier when you're stupid, but in this case I don't know.

Imagine if there was an outbreak of smallpox. Cholera. Bubonic plague. People would shoot each other in the soap aisle

I'm in the Chicago-metro area and Walmart is nearly out of everything.  We've had better luck shopping at smaller stores - Butera, Jewel, Aldi.  Smaller stores tend to be better stocked.

I'm roughly about 2 hours south of you; Champaign County. The local County Market has been better at staying stocked than Wal-Mart; I wonder why, considering Wal-Mart is waaay on the other end of town and CM is like, in the heart of the town. The stuff isn't that much more expensive, so the disparity is certainly interesting.

Freezing lunch meat: never thought about it, makes sense, but how does that stuff taste after being frozen so long? Just curious if it's worse/much different from when I freeze packages of raw beef, sausage, chicken, etc. with all the sodium and preservatives and stuff...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 11:29:48 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 18, 2020, 11:22:04 AM

I am now convinced Donald Trump is a bona fide genius and master of deception.

He says Chinese Virus and, hickory dickory dock, everyone focuses on PC semantics while forgetting to crucify his arse for calling the current world health crisis a hoax one week ago, losing a lot of precious time.

That's masterful.

Correction ... *evil* genius.  Literally and legitimately evil.

@ Dusty.... frozen-then-thawed lunch meat is something I do all the time too.  I honestly have never noticed any kind of difference.  Same with most cheeses.  I find cheddar is a little more crumb-ly after freeze/thaw, but otherwise we freeze a lot of things.  Hell for breads, I'll thaw and re-freeze them multiple times if need be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 18, 2020, 11:37:10 AM

Ditto for me, no difference at all that I noticed with fresh/frozen than thawed. I sometimes just buy like 3kg of pork or chicken or turkey and freeze it when I can't be assed to buy meat every week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 11:51:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 10:51:40 AM

I live in a damn rural community and the Wal-Mart is out of lunch meat.

Do any of these idiots panic shopping ever think about buying canned foods that will last for a long, long time? FFS, you know, sometimes I think life is easier when you're stupid, but in this case I don't know.

Imagine if there was an outbreak of smallpox. Cholera. Bubonic plague. People would shoot each other in the soap aisle

I just had this conversation; there's been a run on mac 'n' cheese around me.  I couldn't help but ask:  "where's all that milk and butter coming from?  Churnin' your own?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 11:56:48 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2020, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

It's also not unheard of to refer to viruses based on their geographical origin. "Ebola" is a river in the Congo, for example.

But no one called it the African virus. Most people have no idea that Ebola is a river. Everyone knows what Chinese means. This is an example where being technically correct misses the implications which are more important.

Not to argue (but of course to argue) it depends on what "implications" you're talking about.   I don't have any problem with singling out China for legitimate reasons concerning their apparent lack of regard for humanity.  If the implication is something more basic, something more phobic, then maybe.  But I think that's a stretch at this point and - not to steal your words - but is perhaps "morally" correct but also missing important implications.    Put another way, does this mean we should gut check and start being more worried about the xenophobic implications of screaming "RUSSIA!" every time we need to fear-monger an election?

By the way:  this triggered a memory; I think we have an ongoing conversation about "racism" that is in your court.  This reminded me of that conversation, since the most obvious interpretation of your position - and a predicate of my last sentence, not snark - is that any reference to ANY country that isn't positive is by definition inappropriate. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:01:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 11:03:25 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2020, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

It's also not unheard of to refer to viruses based on their geographical origin. "Ebola" is a river in the Congo, for example.

But no one called it the African virus. Most people have no idea that Ebola is a river. Everyone knows what Chinese means. This is an example where being technically correct misses the implications which are more important.

Also Spanish Flu.  I think Trump has these valid reasons for calling it that to hide behind while he makes his attacks on China and to convince America the Chinese are at fault here.

See a previous post of mine; I'm not saying you're doing this, Cram, but as a general point, let's not lapse into the false assumption that there isn't anything for the Chinese to be called out on.  In my opinion, this is part and parcel with several issues that many on both sides of the aisle don't seem to have any heartburn making a big deal.   The same attitude that puts 12 year olds to work 12 hours a day feeds the way that the outbreak in the Wuhan market was so callously handled. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 11:13:52 AM

The Chinese government is at fault for not shutting down these markets long ago.  Hopefully this virus convinces them, but if it doesn't, hopefully the international community can apply enough pressure to get them to put an end to it. 

Having said that, calling it the Chinese flu is still a bad bad move.  First of all, it already has a name, so let's stick with that.  Also, it's not a flu. And most importantly, there's no need the fan the flames of racism.

I find fault with the assumption that calling it the "Chinese flu" is racist at heart.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:06:54 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 18, 2020, 11:22:04 AM

I am now convinced Donald Trump is a bona fide genius and master of deception.

He says Chinese Virus and, hickory dickory dock, everyone focuses on PC semantics while forgetting to crucify his arse for calling the current world health crisis a hoax one week ago, losing a lot of precious time.

That's masterful.

Well, this isn't just about Trump's genius, it's also about the pragmatic response TO Trump.  ALL of marketing is redirection, and he's a master marketer (I know; I said something nice about him, but no, I'm not a supporter and will not be voting for him in November, even against Joe Biden) so that's nothing new.   We can crucify him for what he did a week and a half ago, and it changes nothing.  More fun to crucify him for what he's doing now, especially when we can add the "racist" cherry to the top of the orange, small-handed sundae. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 12:12:56 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:01:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 11:03:25 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2020, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

It's also not unheard of to refer to viruses based on their geographical origin. "Ebola" is a river in the Congo, for example.

But no one called it the African virus. Most people have no idea that Ebola is a river. Everyone knows what Chinese means. This is an example where being technically correct misses the implications which are more important.

Also Spanish Flu.  I think Trump has these valid reasons for calling it that to hide behind while he makes his attacks on China and to convince America the Chinese are at fault here.

See a previous post of mine; I'm not saying you're doing this, Cram, but as a general point, let's not lapse into the false assumption that there isn't anything for the Chinese to be called out on.  In my opinion, this is part and parcel with several issues that many on both sides of the aisle don't seem to have any heartburn making a big deal.   The same attitude that puts 12 year olds to work 12 hours a day feeds the way that the outbreak in the Wuhan market was so callously handled.

I already mentioned the Chinese are at fault here from everything I've read about this so far.  But at this point, calling it Chinese Virus isn't doing anyone any help, infact I totally agree with this:

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 18, 2020, 11:22:04 AM

I am now convinced Donald Trump is a bona fide genius and master of deception.

He says Chinese Virus and, hickory dickory dock, everyone focuses on PC semantics while forgetting to crucify his arse for calling the current world health crisis a hoax one week ago, losing a lot of precious time.

That's masterful.

His words are what everyone is talking about.  Let's get back on topic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 12:13:21 PM

nevermind. Sent in a pm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 12:13:56 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 11:56:48 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2020, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 10:16:50 AM

While I don't think it helps to call it that, it did come from China from all science I have seen on the virus.  He isn't actually wrong, but it's not right either to call it that.  But we all know Trump loves to attack China and this is another way that he is doing that.  Someone shared that wuhan meat market video, check it out if you haven't.  That is disgusting.

It's also not unheard of to refer to viruses based on their geographical origin. "Ebola" is a river in the Congo, for example.

But no one called it the African virus. Most people have no idea that Ebola is a river. Everyone knows what Chinese means. This is an example where being technically correct misses the implications which are more important.

Not to argue (but of course to argue) it depends on what "implications" you're talking about.   I don't have any problem with singling out China for legitimate reasons concerning their apparent lack of regard for humanity.  If the implication is something more basic, something more phobic, then maybe. 

I can't speak to what the totality of his motivations are, because I am obviously not in his head.  But I do know that at least a part of the reasoning behind that designation from the U.S. executive (not just Trump) was the stated objective to combat the false narrative coming out of China that COVID-19 originated in the U.S. rather than China.  https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/13/asia/china-coronavirus-us-lijian-zhao-intl-hnk/index.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 12:18:45 PM

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

This is just one example of why calling it a Chinese virus is harmful. No idea what his intentions are and they don’t matter. Causing problems is causing problems even if you didn’t intend to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 18, 2020, 12:19:16 PM

Anyone have friends/relatives/neighbors who are in the midst of selling/purchasing a home?  As well as purchasing a home 'contingent upon sale' of their current residence?  Were in the midst of moving due to a recent job offer that has now passed and they have two rentals or mortgages?  I can only envision the horror stories that are beginning to unfold.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 01:03:35 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2020, 12:18:45 PM

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

This is just one example of why calling it a Chinese virus is harmful. No idea what his intentions are and they don’t matter. Causing problems is causing problems even if you didn’t intend to.

Two comments to that (article, mainly):
- Hate and ignorance are despicable things; despite that, I don't agree that over-santizing speech and perhaps even clouding truth is the answer to that in the face of a virus that is claiming tens of thousands of lives in part as a result of the information we're talking about;
- Interesting that when Trump "minimizes" the virus as compared to the flu, it's "literally killing people" (as I read on another forum), but it's okay for this article to do the same thing in order to highlight the "racism" surrounding the virus.

I'm not sure why we can't, as humans, live in the truth, whatever it is.   It originated in China; address the ramifications of that as we need to, but live in the truth.   As sad as it makes me, as disgusting as it is, is that the biggest of our issues at this point?  We're having a hard enough time getting accurate information out there on a consistent basis, I'm not sure it's productive to further compromise that because of the ridiculous behavior of people that aren't going to be swayed by cute language anyway. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 01:10:28 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 11:13:52 AM

The Chinese government is at fault for not shutting down these markets long ago.  Hopefully this virus convinces them, but if it doesn't, hopefully the international community can apply enough pressure to get them to put an end to it. 

Having said that, calling it the Chinese flu is still a bad bad move.  First of all, it already has a name, so let's stick with that.  Also, it's not a flu. And most importantly, there's no need the fan the flames of racism.

I find fault with the assumption that calling it the "Chinese flu" is racist at heart.

I didn't say it was racist at heart. I said that it fans the flames of racism.  Regardless of his intent, it's not helping.  There are a lot of Chinese Americans.  Asian Americans that people may assume are Chinese.  They don't need this on top of everything else.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 01:13:53 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 01:10:28 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 11:13:52 AM

The Chinese government is at fault for not shutting down these markets long ago.  Hopefully this virus convinces them, but if it doesn't, hopefully the international community can apply enough pressure to get them to put an end to it. 

Having said that, calling it the Chinese flu is still a bad bad move.  First of all, it already has a name, so let's stick with that.  Also, it's not a flu. And most importantly, there's no need the fan the flames of racism.

I find fault with the assumption that calling it the "Chinese flu" is racist at heart.

I didn't say it was racist at heart. I said that it fans the flames of racism.  Regardless of his intent, it's not helping.  There are a lot of Chinese Americans.  Asian Americans that people may assume are Chinese.  They don't need this on top of everything else.

People using Trump's label for the virus to hurt other people (Chinese Americans, or Chinese citizens) says more about the people than Trump IMO.  Anyone who is using this opportunity to say or act against another person is probably a racist themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 18, 2020, 01:28:48 PM

Germany just hit 10k infections (because some people ostensibly don't care about the rules issued)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 18, 2020, 01:29:44 PM

There were 29 deaths in Italy at the end of February from this.  There were 475 today, bringing the total to 2978, and they'll pass China tomorrow.  Amount of new cases in Germany and Spain above 2500, US and France not far behind.

The numbers are already staggering.  I dread looking at them every day.  One can only imagine what they'll look like in three weeks.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 01:32:45 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 01:10:28 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 11:13:52 AM

The Chinese government is at fault for not shutting down these markets long ago.  Hopefully this virus convinces them, but if it doesn't, hopefully the international community can apply enough pressure to get them to put an end to it. 

Having said that, calling it the Chinese flu is still a bad bad move.  First of all, it already has a name, so let's stick with that.  Also, it's not a flu. And most importantly, there's no need the fan the flames of racism.

I find fault with the assumption that calling it the "Chinese flu" is racist at heart.

I didn't say it was racist at heart. I said that it fans the flames of racism.  Regardless of his intent, it's not helping.  There are a lot of Chinese Americans.  Asian Americans that people may assume are Chinese.  They don't need this on top of everything else.

I guess I'm struggling with who gets to decide where the line is, and how we prioritize the competing interests here.  To someone inclined to racism, an ignorant position to start with, I don't understand how we can presume to know what the thought process might be and how to influence it.  If Trump's "Chinese flu" stokes racism, wouldn't the heinous Wuhan market films do the same thing?  So do we bury truth?   We're willing to assume Trump's motives, and act on that assumption, but we're not willing to assume that "truth" might save lives?   

I'm not supporting racism here, and I'm not suggesting that we be careless with those things that might make an otherwise manageable situation get out of hand.   But it certainly strikes me that as soon as "race" gets injected into a conversation - even if that is through assumption and/or speculation  - it seems to supplant objective truth as a standard of review.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 18, 2020, 01:40:07 PM

I don't know if this has been posted already but I am not about to go and read 34 pages but for what it's worth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw

Good information.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 01:40:13 PM

FEELINGS!


 :biggrin:



 :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 18, 2020, 01:40:07 PM

I don't know if this has been posted already but I am not about to go and read 34 pages but for what it's worth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw

Good information.

Talked about it a few pages ago, twice! Glad I'm not the only one :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 18, 2020, 01:43:01 PM

Trump's not calling it "Chinese Flu" to be a racist.  He's calling it "Chinese Flu" to be an asshole.  He's doing it to create a boogeyman, because right now he doesn't have one, and he feels best when he is fighting against something, and he doesn't (and never has) give a shit about the possible consequences and repercussions of anything that he says or does.

It's not "burying the truth" to insist that he stop.  For one thing, viruses don't have nationalities, so calling it anything like that is stupid.  For another, it's not a version of the flu at all, so designating it that way is in fact "burying the truth".  Thirdly, it already has a name, so giving it another one is needles and, again, stupid.  Fourth, this will (and already has) feed his stupidest, basest supporters in the racist miasma of their 'Merica-first existence, causing problems for Asian-Americans and other immigrants.  Lastly, no good can come from it, there's no good reason for it, so fucking stop it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 18, 2020, 02:04:10 PM

 :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 18, 2020, 02:05:01 PM

I wish the president seemed to care as much about dealing with the virus as he did stopping that caravan back in 2018.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: RuRoRul on March 18, 2020, 02:09:06 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 18, 2020, 02:05:01 PM

I wish the president seemed to care as much about dealing with the virus as he did stopping that caravan back in 2018.

He tried to warn us about Caravanirus 2 years ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:13:23 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 18, 2020, 01:29:44 PM

There were 29 deaths in Italy at the end of February from this.  There were 475 today, bringing the total to 2978, and they'll pass China tomorrow. 

I would not assume the numbers coming out of China are accurate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 18, 2020, 02:13:50 PM

Had to read that three times to get it. Bravo, sir on that brilliant post.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 02:15:45 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 18, 2020, 01:43:01 PM

Trump's not calling it "Chinese Flu" to be a racist.  He's calling it "Chinese Flu" to be an asshole.  He's doing it to create a boogeyman, because right now he doesn't have one, and he feels best when he is fighting against something, and he doesn't (and never has) give a shit about the possible consequences and repercussions of anything that he says or does.

It's not "burying the truth" to insist that he stop.  For one thing, viruses don't have nationalities, so calling it anything like that is stupid.  For another, it's not a version of the flu at all, so designating it that way is in fact "burying the truth".  Thirdly, it already has a name, so giving it another one is needles and, again, stupid.  Fourth, this will (and already has) feed his stupidest, basest supporters in the racist miasma of their 'Merica-first existence, causing problems for Asian-Americans and other immigrants.  Lastly, no good can come from it, there's no good reason for it, so fucking stop it.

All perfectly valid opinions.  Not sure I even disagree with most of them.   But they are OPINIONS.

China is not clean here - FACT (see below) - and prioritizing political correctness and opinions over that fact is, in MY opinion, equally dangerous. 

https://www.statista.com/topics/5898/novel-coronavirus-covid-19-in-china/
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/18/beijing_fears_covid-19_is_turning_point_for_china_globalization__142686.html

If the criteria is that "any information that some ignorant dipshit can twist into an excuse to be an active, bigoted asshole" is now "racism", well, that's an untenable standard, and basically anything short of our name, rank and serial number is "racism". Actually, by your definition, what I've written here is "racism". 

EDIT:  In fairness to you, I didn't catch the "flu" gaff; by all means, demand he stop calling it the flu.  Seriously. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:19:21 PM

Well, "Chinese cold" doesn't have the same ring to it.  :lol

On a more lighthearted note, I ordered something from China back in January, and it just finally arrived yesterday.  My wife saw that it was from China, and said "DON'T OPEN IT!"  I had to tell her I bought it well over two months ago, so even if the contents were somehow infected, anything living in it is long dead.  But as far as the outside...well, who knows what our mail handlers have been touching?  It's sitting in the garage until Lysol gets back in stock. 

EDIT:  Back in late January, I emailed because the package was being unreasonably delayed and still sitting in China (according to online tracking).  The vendor made an excuse about backlogs due to Chinese New Year.  That didn't make sense to me, especially since Chinese New Year was not for several weeks.  But there was little I could do but wait it out.  Looking back, this was before the world at large knew about the virus, but China absolutely knew.  I'd bet the value of that package that the delay was because of that.  I'm surprised it even shipped at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 02:21:49 PM

I had to correct a parts delivery guy a few minutes ago who insisted going to a sauna would cure the virus. 1) no proof of that. 2) I can't imagine a sauna is hot enough to cook a virus. 3) You're sweating in a small space potentially with several other people. That's like a petri dish

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 02:22:25 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:19:21 PM

Well, "Chinese cold" doesn't have the same ring to it.  :lol

How about 'Asian Contagion'?? It's a region of the world....???


I'm only kidding.....if it's ok to kid still.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 18, 2020, 02:24:21 PM

This hoarding stuff is really pissing me off. I have been to no less than 7 different stores since Saturday, and some of those more than once, and not a single one has had a single sheet of toilet paper in stock. By the weekend, I may be looking for a place to take a dump because I won't be able to do it cleanly at my house.

To echo Katt and Grapp, I am also in Illinois and Wal-Mart is a joke. Wife and I went yesterday because we needed some stuff and it looked like they were on the last leg of a going out of business sale in the grocery and household areas. Freezers were almost all empty, no lunch meat, no TP, no laundry detergent, practically no food.

Real pissed with the hoarders right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 18, 2020, 02:25:37 PM

Germany just hit 12k infections. 29% increase in a day. 28 dead (was 24)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:27:26 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 18, 2020, 02:24:21 PM

This hoarding stuff is really pissing me off. I have been to no less than 7 different stores since Saturday, and some of those more than once, and not a single one has had a single sheet of toilet paper in stock. By the weekend, I may be looking for a place to take a dump because I won't be able to do it cleanly at my house.

Got any Steven Wilson/PT tour shirts?  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 02:31:38 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 18, 2020, 02:24:21 PM

This hoarding stuff is really pissing me off. I have been to no less than 7 different stores since Saturday, and some of those more than once, and not a single one has had a single sheet of toilet paper in stock. By the weekend, I may be looking for a place to take a dump because I won't be able to do it cleanly at my house.

I'm sure you have a shower.  Or at worst case a towel you can clean after using it.  Drastic times call for drastic measures.  I've thought about this for sure, if I run out, I'm jumping into the shower after every shit. 

I mentioned this to my friends and one responded saying he does this every morning already  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 18, 2020, 02:33:14 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 02:15:45 PM

China is not clean here - FACT (see below) - and prioritizing political correctness and opinions over that fact is, in MY opinion, equally dangerous. 

https://www.statista.com/topics/5898/novel-coronavirus-covid-19-in-china/
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/18/beijing_fears_covid-19_is_turning_point_for_china_globalization__142686.html

I'm not prioritizing political correctness.  Just correctness.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I find that article irrelevant to what we're talking about.  China doesn't deserve any kudos or protection.  But that's no reason for President Dipshit to refer to the current problem as Chinese Flu.  It's not to protect China, it's just to be accurate and not dumb anything down (which I know is difficult for him).

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 02:15:45 PM

If the criteria is that "any information that some ignorant dipshit can twist into an excuse to be an active, bigoted asshole" is now "racism", well, that's an untenable standard, and basically anything short of our name, rank and serial number is "racism". Actually, by your definition, what I've written here is "racism". 

That's not the criteria.  It's just a side effect of a reckless action that has no good reason behind it to offset it.

I don't know, man.  Sometimes it seems like you pick something to argue for the argument's sake, like this is debate class.  This, in particular, seems like a really weird thing to try to defend.

I'm not saying that's your actual motivation.  Just that it seems that way from time to time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:37:39 PM

I don't see how raising valid points is arguing for argument's sake.  I also don't see how accusing someone of arguing for argument's sake is productive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 18, 2020, 02:41:58 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:37:39 PM

I don't see how raising valid points is arguing for argument's sake.  I also don't see how accusing someone of arguing for argument's sake is productive.

I didn't accuse him of it.  I just said that that's how it seems sometimes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 18, 2020, 02:44:08 PM

"Isis issues coronavirus travel advice: terrorists should avoid Europe"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-issues-coronavirus-travel-advice-terrorists-should-avoid-europe-5m89dvjjw

We live in strange times right now when you read a title like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 02:45:16 PM

I've noticed that having the minority opinion tends to get you singled out and accused of some pretty heavy things. Not an indictment of this place, but, a general observation of any community in which there's a minority opinion. If we're gonna be adults about it we should be able to discuss someone's point without rolling out the carpet of shame to walk them down, yeah?

EDIT: nvm, bosk beat me

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 02:47:34 PM

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-experiment-in-northern-italian-town-halts-all-new-infections-after-trial-11959587 (https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-experiment-in-northern-italian-town-halts-all-new-infections-after-trial-11959587)

Testing is key.  This town tested EVERYONE and then isolated those who were positive.  No new cases now.

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 18, 2020, 02:44:08 PM

"Isis issues coronavirus travel advice: terrorists should avoid Europe"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-issues-coronavirus-travel-advice-terrorists-should-avoid-europe-5m89dvjjw

We live in strange times right now when you read a title like that.

 :lol wtf, why can't ISIS get infected?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 18, 2020, 02:48:01 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 18, 2020, 01:40:07 PM

I don't know if this has been posted already but I am not about to go and read 34 pages but for what it's worth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw

Good information.

Talked about it a few pages ago, twice! Glad I'm not the only one :)

Typical, I'm usually late to the party..... ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:48:20 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:45:16 PM

If we're gonna be adults about it we should be able to discuss someone's point without rolling out the carpet of shame to walk them down, yeah?

See, you keep saying stuff like this lately, and I can't help but wonder: what have you done with Katt, and how did you get his login credentials?

:hearts:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:48:20 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:45:16 PM

If we're gonna be adults about it we should be able to discuss someone's point without rolling out the carpet of shame to walk them down, yeah?

See, you keep saying stuff like this lately, and I can't help but wonder: what have you done with Katt, and how did you get his login credentials?

:hearts:

My name is Dusty Rhodes, daddy, and I showed Katt hard times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 03:01:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 01:32:45 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 01:10:28 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2020, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 11:13:52 AM

The Chinese government is at fault for not shutting down these markets long ago.  Hopefully this virus convinces them, but if it doesn't, hopefully the international community can apply enough pressure to get them to put an end to it. 

Having said that, calling it the Chinese flu is still a bad bad move.  First of all, it already has a name, so let's stick with that.  Also, it's not a flu. And most importantly, there's no need the fan the flames of racism.

I find fault with the assumption that calling it the "Chinese flu" is racist at heart.

I didn't say it was racist at heart. I said that it fans the flames of racism.  Regardless of his intent, it's not helping.  There are a lot of Chinese Americans.  Asian Americans that people may assume are Chinese.  They don't need this on top of everything else.

I guess I'm struggling with who gets to decide where the line is, and how we prioritize the competing interests here.  To someone inclined to racism, an ignorant position to start with, I don't understand how we can presume to know what the thought process might be and how to influence it.  If Trump's "Chinese flu" stokes racism, wouldn't the heinous Wuhan market films do the same thing?  So do we bury truth?   We're willing to assume Trump's motives, and act on that assumption, but we're not willing to assume that "truth" might save lives?   

I'm not supporting racism here, and I'm not suggesting that we be careless with those things that might make an otherwise manageable situation get out of hand.   But it certainly strikes me that as soon as "race" gets injected into a conversation - even if that is through assumption and/or speculation  - it seems to supplant objective truth as a standard of review.

Stadler, how are you getting any of this from what I said? No, I'm not suggesting that we bury the truth. And no one is burying the truth. We all know where the virus started.  No one is suggesting that we lie to the public about that.

Nonetheless, it's not very responsible to call it the Chinese flu. It already has a name. That name should be used. Yes, there are racist people who were racist long before Trump and will be long after.  Some people will behave badly no matter what he says. But there are others who can be influenced.  There are people who are emboldened by certain language.  There are people who are maybe racist or xenophobic in some ways, who, with the right wording might come to have some understanding that they should blame this on "Chinese people" and there are people who maybe will think to it themselves but won't start a scene.  If it causes just one person not to be violent one time, it's worth being careful with the language.  And for that matter, accurate.  It's accurate to say covid-19.  It's accurate to say "the pandemic."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 03:02:55 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 18, 2020, 01:43:01 PM

Trump's not calling it "Chinese Flu" to be a racist.  He's calling it "Chinese Flu" to be an asshole.  He's doing it to create a boogeyman, because right now he doesn't have one, and he feels best when he is fighting against something, and he doesn't (and never has) give a shit about the possible consequences and repercussions of anything that he says or does.

It's not "burying the truth" to insist that he stop.  For one thing, viruses don't have nationalities, so calling it anything like that is stupid.  For another, it's not a version of the flu at all, so designating it that way is in fact "burying the truth".  Thirdly, it already has a name, so giving it another one is needles and, again, stupid.  Fourth, this will (and already has) feed his stupidest, basest supporters in the racist miasma of their 'Merica-first existence, causing problems for Asian-Americans and other immigrants.  Lastly, no good can come from it, there's no good reason for it, so fucking stop it.

Or maybe I should have just quoted this. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 03:04:47 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 03:01:03 PM

It's accurate to say covid-29.

Is not. :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 03:05:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 03:04:47 PM

Quote from: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 03:01:03 PM

It's accurate to say covid-29.

Is not. :neverusethis:

 :rollin :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 18, 2020, 03:07:30 PM

Good to see that with everything going on, at least there is no crisis in the glass housing market, LOL.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 18, 2020, 03:07:39 PM

Sorry, will fix it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 18, 2020, 03:30:55 PM

Anyone else feel an almost compulsive desire to go get take out from local restaurants? I also want to go get take out growlers from a couple local breweries I like. These places are going to go under within a couple months if this continues. I don't frequent these place often normally, but I want to more now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2020, 03:31:37 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 18, 2020, 03:30:55 PM

Anyone else feel an almost compulsive desire to go get take out from local restaurants? I also want to go gey take out growlers from a couple local breweries I like. These places are going to go under within a couple months if this continues. I don't frequent these place often normally, but I want to more now.

Yeah, I been thinking of doing takeout / delivery at least once a week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 03:34:41 PM

A friend of mine runs a Mexican restaurant with a drive thru so I still continue to patronize his business and get shrimp tacos while I'm still in my car :2metal:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 03:35:27 PM

I've been on a diet so eating out is not something I want to do, but yes, I've considered ordering some pizza from one of my favorite spots and freezing what I don't eat (I'm only one person, ordering a pie would be too much for me plus totally against my diet).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 18, 2020, 03:39:40 PM

It's my family's plan to get take-out once a week from our favorite local establishments.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 18, 2020, 03:40:22 PM

Donnie just called it the Chinese Virus on twitter. :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on March 18, 2020, 04:03:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 18, 2020, 03:40:22 PM

Donnie just called it the Chinese Virus on twitter. :facepalm:

Who's Donnie precious? 

I'm surprised no one's called it A-2 Hong Kong Flu yet (cause u no, Hong Kong's in China)... I figured SK would be getting more love from people seeing that he predicted this in the 70's and early 80's.  Baby won't you tell me if you think you caaaann... Baaaaby can you dig yo maaaann.

On a serious note, what's everyone think of the 14-45 day time frame of slowing the spread?  I'm not talking bout talking heads and news articles, I'm talking about people on the ground experiencing it.  Can I be the a-hole and ask if anyone thinks the US is over-reacting just a bit?  Not the social distancing as that's understandable and agreeable, I'm talking about the closures and the panic buying that follows with the closures.  People see Nordstrom's and Victoria's Secret closed and they go by toilet paper and spam.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 18, 2020, 04:16:10 PM

Quote from: vtgrad on March 18, 2020, 04:03:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 18, 2020, 03:40:22 PM

Donnie just called it the Chinese Virus on twitter. :facepalm:

Who's Donnie precious? 

I'm surprised no one's called it A-2 Hong Kong Flu yet (cause u no, Hong Kong's in China)... I figured SK would be getting more love from people seeing that he predicted this in the 70's and early 80's.  Baby won't you tell me if you think you caaaann... Baaaaby can you dig yo maaaann.

On a serious note, what's everyone think of the 14-45 day time frame of slowing the spread?  I'm not talking bout talking heads and news articles, I'm talking about people on the ground experiencing it.  Can I be the a-hole and ask if anyone thinks the US is over-reacting just a bit?  Not the social distancing as that's understandable and agreeable, I'm talking about the closures and the panic buying that follows with the closures.  People see Nordstrom's and Victoria's Secret closed and they go by toilet paper and spam.

People with some anecdotal cases won't have the same overview as entire agencies that have access to patient data. Furthermore, diabetes seems to be one of the risk factors for developing serious illness and the US is leading in that regard.

There is a reason why some countries went into a total lockdown, it is because their hospitals were full and people are dying. None of these governments would self impose such massive economical damage if it was not absolutely necessary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 04:25:57 PM

You know, I've given a lot of thought to this virus. I've looked at not only how it's impacting the world. but also how it's impacting my personal life. I've landed on a position that might seem controversial. I don't want to insult anyone here, or rub anyone the wrong way, but I just can't say this in a super PC way.

But this Covid thing?


Not a fan. Not a fan at all.

In fact....it's kind of pissing me off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 18, 2020, 04:29:43 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:13:23 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 18, 2020, 01:29:44 PM

There were 29 deaths in Italy at the end of February from this.  There were 475 today, bringing the total to 2978, and they'll pass China tomorrow. 

I would not assume the numbers coming out of China are accurate.

I don't think anyone is.  I wouldn't be surprised if many that were dragged out of their homes and put in self isolation rooms didn't eventually disappear as well.

Deplorable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2020, 04:25:57 PM

But this Covid thing?


Not a fan. Not a fan at all.

In fact....it's kind of pissing me off.

Yup, just got home and my summer concert pass to my local shed arrived.  Makes me so upset that this may not even happen.  I should be filled with joy for getting this, access to over 30 of the biggest tours this summer and yet I'm all wondering if I can even get my money back if the summer doesn't happen as expected.  Of course there is life and death to worry about, but we've all got our things that are impacted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 06:05:16 PM

Dave's completely right. But, and this is more to embellish on one of his points, it does more than simply distract, it creates people defending him.

His language is brilliantly vague. Is there anything overtly racist about what he said? Nope! And he knows that most people only consider overt racism as legit racism, where everything else is largely fine.

Obviously if he had called it a chink virus or something, we wouldn't even be debating this. Or if he said the Wuhan virus, to be honest. But he did neither, he specifically said Chinese. And yes, if anyone studies psychology or social psychology for just a few hours, you will see that racism/prejudice CAN in fact be inspired and flamed by these kinds of things. It happens all the time by various leaders in different contexts. And you can sweep it away as "well those people doing racist things were already racist to begin with" and you'd be partially right. We're ALL racist to some degree, or prejudice to some degree. Under certain circumstances, almost everyone can turn. So he's not making people racist. Not at all. He's giving it credence, or legitimacy. And, for a lot of people, that's enough to have big impacts. Racial attacks against Asians have risen dramatically since the virus started. Is Trump responsible for any of it? Nope! But he's giving it some inspiration, some legitimacy, some egging on. If I do that, it makes no difference because who cares about me? But Trump can speak to every single 350 million Americans (at least the ones able to hear/read/see him) and serves as the highest law of the land. That matters...a lot. You can say it does not, but you'd be wrong. It's the same reason why if a head Rabbi or a head Priest or Imam or what have you preaches racially based things, many of his follows will act on those things without being directly told to.

But that's besides the point. His language is brilliant, as I said. Because of its ambiguity. Because of it's grayness. So now you'll have people like me, who actually have to deal with the results on the ground by helping Asian clients, and people who see things a little differently. The result is you have people, like Stadler and others, who do NOT like Trump at all, but are more than happy to defend him in these cases because of that ambiguity. I am confident that if Trump said "Chinese immigrants are trying to kill all of you with this virus!" then Stadler and such would not defend him at all. So instead of focusing on how badly this was handled, Trump now has people strongly defending him, even if they hate him. That's brilliant. It also, as Dave pointed out, emboldens people like Trump. So, on that note, this will be the last thing I say on the racism aspect of it, unless something huge happens. I made my points, others have made theirs, and I have nothing else to offer. Luckily this virus is making the world such a fun place that I doubt we'll run out of things to discuss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 18, 2020, 06:37:56 PM

This virus, and the political implications surrounding it, are of course linked. But I think this topic is significant enough to warrant two separate threads.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2020, 06:40:25 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 18, 2020, 06:37:56 PM

This virus, and the political implications surrounding it, are of course linked. But I think this topic is significant enough to warrant two separate threads.

Well said. I’d be happy to keep the pr stuff in the pr thread from here on. My bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 18, 2020, 07:46:58 PM

I'll turn the direction of this thread back to usual "fun" general discussions regarding a topic we all know.....

So I went to a couple of stores to get some stuff (like some desserts and some side dishes like mac n cheese).  Thankfully, those weren't as sold out as say toilet paper, water, medicine, etc.  That's not the point I want to make though.  With a lot of people coming to convenient stores more frequently in light of these events, it leaves more shopping carts lying all over the parking lot.....  I always think of you guys when I see shopping carts lying around.  Carts were just piling to even occupied parking spots.  Just plain yikes, but not as yikes as what we are seeing in this epidemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 18, 2020, 07:50:14 PM

(https://media.giphy.com/media/ncbdoCpKerEbK/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 18, 2020, 08:03:23 PM

#Coronacarts

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 18, 2020, 08:16:27 PM

Put your god damn cart away, Tim.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 08:24:25 PM

 :lol

I ran out to the Target right near where I work today to grab some stuff, I got a cart and wiped it down for the first time in my life and then didn't touch my face until I got back to work and used sanitizer. I've never been so germophibic in my life but that's where we are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ChuckSteak on March 18, 2020, 08:35:15 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMTZu6_TjU8

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 08:53:02 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 08:24:25 PM

:lol

I ran out to the Target right near where I work today to grab some stuff, I got a cart and wiped it down for the first time in my life and then didn't touch my face until I got back to work and used sanitizer. I've never been so germophibic in my life but that's where we are.

No kidding....same here. I mean, before all this I considered myself good at personal hygiene....washing hands etc etc....but man, I don't think I've ever washed my hands so much in my life.  :lol  Like, after ANY and EVERY interaction with a physical object I'm scrubbing  :lol   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 18, 2020, 09:02:08 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 08:24:25 PM

:lol

I ran out to the Target right near where I work today to grab some stuff, I got a cart and wiped it down for the first time in my life and then didn't touch my face until I got back to work and used sanitizer. I've never been so germophibic in my life but that's where we are.

This is my life. I use paper towels to open doors.

WTH!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2020, 09:10:55 PM

I do have to go on (2) job site visits tomorrow. Some of you know that I'm a Project Manager for Health Care projects....so all my job sites are in hospitals. One visit is in a pretty rural hospital about 1-1/2 away so I'm not real 'worried' about that one. But my other stop is at a very busy city hospital. Our System has protocols in place but still....I'm going to be one foot door opening fool tomorrow and my hands are going to fall off from the amount of hand sanitizer I'm going to lather up in every forty seconds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Metro on March 18, 2020, 09:44:32 PM

I work as a courier for a medical laboratory. It's been an interesting couple of weeks. I've had to handle some test specimens for COVID-19, and a resident at one of my daily stops was actually diagnosed with Coronavirus. Currently there's I think 77 confirmed cases here in Richmond, with surely more to come.

I'm wearing a face mask everywhere I go, and I'm using plenty of hand sanitizer(I always do, but now more than usual) Pretty much everywhere I go I have to do a quick health screening before I can enter the building. Just a temperature check and the usual questions "Are you experiencing any symptoms? Have you been out of the country within the last month? etc. etc." Some places just flat out won't let you enter.

Minor inconveniences, but things are only gonna get worse from here on out. On the bright side, my job certainly isn't going anywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 18, 2020, 10:28:38 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 18, 2020, 09:02:08 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2020, 08:24:25 PM

:lol

I ran out to the Target right near where I work today to grab some stuff, I got a cart and wiped it down for the first time in my life and then didn't touch my face until I got back to work and used sanitizer. I've never been so germophibic in my life but that's where we are.

This is my life. I use paper towels to open doors.

WTH!

I saw a lady in the grocery store using two of those plastic triangle flower bags over her hands to push her cart. If it wouldn't have been in really bad taste I would've taken a picture cause it was fucking hysterical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 18, 2020, 10:44:12 PM

I’m lucky to have a wife with a great job so over the past 10 years I’ve been a stay at home dad working part time.  I currently work at a sporting goods store and after work tonight I came home to my wife in tears. She flat out said “I don’t want you to go to work anymore.”

Wisconsin enacted a shutdown of all bars/restaurants on Tuesday and says any gatherings of 10 or more are not allowed with the caveat retail stores can remain open because “large numbers of people are present but generally are not within arms length of one another for more than 10 minutes”.  My employer emphatically sent an email out today underlining and italicizing “this does not affect us.” 

With spring sports, and most likely a lot of summer sports getting cancelled, the only thing we’re currently selling is fire arms and ammunition, because certain people are freaking out.

I told my wife I’m calling the store in the morning and telling them I don’t feel comfortable coming into the store anymore. My wife and son come first. If they fire me, they fire me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 18, 2020, 10:46:35 PM

I have to take my wife to the hospital for an outpatient procedure tomorrow. They called today and gave her the lowdown on how things will work.

We both have to have valid photo ID's.
They are going to ask us a whole series of questions related to the virus.
We have to social distance from each other the whole time we are there.
I can wait in the car?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Screw that. There's an office building about 5 minutes from there where most of IT is housed and it is where I sat for several years before moving to a building closer to home. A coworker was actually at the building today and said he was literally the only person in the entire building. His whole family is home so is finds working from home impossible. He joked he was actually practicing social distancing since the building was empty. I may pay him a visit to kill some time.

Such a weird world we are living in right now. Oh, I might go on a hunt for the most precious commodity, toilet paper.

(https://i.imgflip.com/3sdpty.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 19, 2020, 03:20:51 AM

This sucks.

(https://www.ansa.it/webimages/img_457x/2020/3/18/4a5b5c1e80909b151ce8f6b55deb4f0b.JPG)

This is a photo of the army carrying coffins outside of the Bergamo province (one of the most hit), because there is no more room in the cemeteries and they need to be cremated elsewhere.

I live attached to Milan but I have my social life in that province, where I know a lot of people from various concerts. So far none of my friends had an immediate relative afflicted (at least that I know of), but the situation there is beyond tragic, nothing like this ever happened since World War II.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: a51502112 on March 19, 2020, 05:49:36 AM

I guess I'll join in...

Although I completely agree with the idea of staying home in isolation to ride this out,
all the social media posts stating to "stay home, people" is slightly irritating.
I'm a Machinist and work in a large manufacturing firm. Of the 2000 employees at my work,
about 1500 are office workers so they are now working from home.
The rest of us HAVE to go to work. Until the plant shuts down temporarily, I still have to go to work.
So all these actors, entertainers, and workingfromhomers can chill and stop making me feel like a POS. ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 19, 2020, 06:13:35 AM

Quote from: a51502112 on March 19, 2020, 05:49:36 AM

I guess I'll join in...

Although I completely agree with the idea of staying home in isolation to ride this out,
all the social media posts stating to "stay home, people" is slightly irritating.
I'm a Machinist and work in a large manufacturing firm. Of the 2000 employees at my work,
about 1500 are office workers so they are now working from home.
The rest of us HAVE to go to work. Until the plant shuts down temporarily, I still have to go to work.
So all these actors, entertainers, and workingfromhomers can chill and stop making me feel like a POS. ;)

So I was ranting on this last night and I wasn't sure where to post it...but Lady Gaga posted that she is self quarantining.Really? Who fucking cares. Do you have it? Are there doctors orders?
No, so how about shutting the fuck up? You're staying home in your well stocked mansion and riding it out. Self quarantining….fuck you!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 19, 2020, 06:15:08 AM

Not directed at anyone, just a reminder that while hand sanitizer is good (or perhaps more accurately, better than nothing) soap/water is a far greater defense against this virus.  Wherever possible peeps, hand wash.  Also, we luckily had a large box of surgical gloves on hand.  When I pumped gas the other day, I used a glove.  Same is going to be the case with any grocery carts, door handling, etc...  The idea of keeping some kind of towel handy (paper or otherwise), or just wearing gloves in the case of touching anything in public is not a bad one.  I'm trying to figure out what I can keep on hand for the instances (few as they may be for the coming weeks/months) of making a purchase that I can't just 'tap', and have to touch a POS keypad.  Honestly, I've been grabbing a random receipt from my wallet to put between my fingertip and the keypad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 19, 2020, 06:16:09 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 19, 2020, 06:13:35 AM

Quote from: a51502112 on March 19, 2020, 05:49:36 AM

I guess I'll join in...

Although I completely agree with the idea of staying home in isolation to ride this out,
all the social media posts stating to "stay home, people" is slightly irritating.
I'm a Machinist and work in a large manufacturing firm. Of the 2000 employees at my work,
about 1500 are office workers so they are now working from home.
The rest of us HAVE to go to work. Until the plant shuts down temporarily, I still have to go to work.
So all these actors, entertainers, and workingfromhomers can chill and stop making me feel like a POS. ;)

So I was ranting on this last night and I wasn't sure where to post it...but Lady Gaga posted that she is self quarantining.Really? Who fucking cares. Do you have it? Are there doctors orders?
No, so how about shutting the fuck up? You're staying home in your well stocked mansion and riding it out. Self quarantining….fuck you!

Woah dude, chill.

There are TONS of super impressionable people who might decide to self-quarantine because their favorite celebrities are advocating for it like this. I doubt she's saying "look it's SOOO easy to do so no one should ever complain" she's just saying she's doing it and taking it seriously. Have a pretzel, go hug a baby elephant or something and breathe bro.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 06:17:12 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 19, 2020, 06:13:35 AM

Quote from: a51502112 on March 19, 2020, 05:49:36 AM

I guess I'll join in...

Although I completely agree with the idea of staying home in isolation to ride this out,
all the social media posts stating to "stay home, people" is slightly irritating.
I'm a Machinist and work in a large manufacturing firm. Of the 2000 employees at my work,
about 1500 are office workers so they are now working from home.
The rest of us HAVE to go to work. Until the plant shuts down temporarily, I still have to go to work.
So all these actors, entertainers, and workingfromhomers can chill and stop making me feel like a POS. ;)

So I was ranting on this last night and I wasn't sure where to post it...but Lady Gaga posted that she is self quarantining.Really? Who fucking cares. Do you have it? Are there doctors orders?
No, so how about shutting the fuck up? You're staying home in your well stocked mansion and riding it out. Self quarantining….fuck you!

Really, you're gonna waste your energy on that? Her fans probably care, man.

As for people complaining about going to work - suck it up, buttercups (that's meant with love)! Not everybody can just not go to work. In fact I'd say you're lucky to be able to continue working when so many people are out of work or have completely lost their jobs. I know several people whose bosses literally just said "better go try to file unemployment or get a job at Amazon."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 19, 2020, 06:20:24 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 19, 2020, 06:16:09 AM

Woah dude, chill.

There are TONS of super impressionable people who might decide to self-quarantine because their favorite celebrities are advocating for it like this. I doubt she's saying "look it's SOOO easy to do so no one should ever complain" she's just saying she's doing it and taking it seriously. Have a pretzel, go hug a baby elephant or something and breathe bro.

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 06:17:12 AM

Really, you're gonna waste your energy on that? Her fans probably care, man.

Wow, tag team beatdown! :lol :lol


(https://pa1.narvii.com/6450/05c7d8e8496d12eed7b7045008cb4f4de8ccb4b4_hq.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 06:21:35 AM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 19, 2020, 06:21:57 AM

Yes, but it's a beat down from at least 6 feat away, so you should be cool.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 19, 2020, 06:29:00 AM

Anyway, given how people are selfish, stubborn and sometimes downright dumb, I truly believe that for SOME people, seeing Lady Gaga staying at home helps understand better the message than when it's said by the actual authorities.

In Italy it's full of celebrities messages urging to stay at home and, before the entire nation went on lockdown, to wash often the hands and avoid unnecessary risks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 06:33:58 AM

Y'know this constant attack of humanity, "we're so stupid, selfish, arrogant, we suck, we're a cancer, we deserve what's happening" is getting really old. Even my cynical, pessimistic ass is tired of all the negativity. Stay positive. Better days will come, but we (collective) are trying. "Yeah but we should have tried sooner blah blah" well that admonishment does absolutely nothing to help now. Crikey. It's a tragedy, but we will come out on the other side.

I mean it's everyone's choice to sit and stew in negative thoughts but that's a recipe for debilitating stress on top of the stress you're already probably feeling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: a51502112 on March 19, 2020, 06:39:14 AM

Have a good day. :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 06:44:06 AM

Quote from: a51502112 on March 19, 2020, 06:39:14 AM

Have a good day. :metal

I saw that before you edited it and I'm sorry you feel that way, especially if it's in response to me. I just don't think being so negative helps whatsoever. Sorry if I came off crass.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 19, 2020, 06:44:26 AM

For everybody who didn’t read all of DaveManchester’s post and still wants to get some sort of info, here’s Trump’s timeline in a very informative - and slightly political (sorry) - video. Enjoy, for your own perusal :corn

https://therecount.com/watch/trump-coronavirus-calendar/2645515793

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 19, 2020, 06:45:33 AM

I'm on TAC's side.  I don't need to read about any other celebrities self quarantining.  Sure, the message is great and maybe they can influence some impressionable fan to stay home, but there's a difference between someone affluent doing it and a regular schmoe doing it. 

Lady Gaga isn't stuck in a 1200 square foot house with two young kids, a daily job to try and manage (while working from home), worrying about groceries, dealing with spouse wishing you could get away from work to help with the kids (and complaining when the boss says you should come in) and all of the other things that we all have to do.


I'm pretty much tuned out to most social media crap about this, even from people I know.  Although the CV Memes page is hilarious.  It's best to just stay away from all of it at times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 19, 2020, 06:47:01 AM

Quote from: Negative Nancy on March 19, 2020, 06:33:58 AM

Y'know this constant attack of humanity, "we're so stupid, selfish, arrogant, we suck, we're a cancer, we deserve what's happening" is getting really old. Even my cynical, pessimistic ass is tired of all the negativity. Stay positive. Better days will come, but we (collective) are trying. "Yeah but we should have tried sooner blah blah" well that admonishment does absolutely nothing to help now. Crikey. It's a tragedy, but we will come out on the other side.

I mean it's everyone's choice to sit and stew in negative thoughts but that's a recipe for debilitating stress on top of the stress you're already probably feeling.

Yea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 19, 2020, 06:50:24 AM

So in Bangladesh, they thought it'd be a dandy idea to have a prayer session amid fears of a wider outbreak. Of 25000 people.



 :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 19, 2020, 07:01:14 AM

I went to the supermarket the other day and when I grabbed the cart I noticed it was a bit sticky. It turns out they had a person sanitizing the carts after they were left by shoppers. I thought it was great that they were being that careful with their customers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 19, 2020, 07:06:33 AM

Letter to members from a gym in my state.

(https://preview.redd.it/jkssnsk3rin41.jpg?width=432&auto=webp&s=abf5fbfa39994a3ce640ea7386c878fd51686795)

This was their response to the backlash on FB:

“We’re very sorry that some have taken offense to this post and/or to the email sent to our members this morning. Our intent was simply to communicate to members that their membership dues had been stopped during our forced shutdown, and at the same time, relay the facts as they were posted on the CDC website at that time, not as reported by the media, in an effort to calm the panic some may feel when faced with the unknown. We understand that the statistics/situations are constantly changing and continue to watch the cdc website for accurate information."

I'm pretty sure the CDC has never refereed to this as a "new strain of the flu".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on March 19, 2020, 07:33:28 AM

Deleted

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 19, 2020, 07:38:00 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:48:20 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:45:16 PM

If we're gonna be adults about it we should be able to discuss someone's point without rolling out the carpet of shame to walk them down, yeah?

See, you keep saying stuff like this lately, and I can't help but wonder: what have you done with Katt, and how did you get his login credentials?

:hearts:

My name is Dusty Rhodes, daddy, and I showed Katt hard times.

You owe me a new keyboard.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 19, 2020, 07:53:52 AM

Based on my Facebook feed, there are still an alarming amount of people who aren't taking this seriously. So I guess - if you are already taking it seriously and doing whatever is in your power to do, maybe visit social media a little less often.  Or, recognize that the "stay at home, people" posts aren't directed at you.  There are still people who need to see those posts. 

Regarding celebrities, you can think of it as Lady Gaga being kind of ignorant and expecting everyone to be able to stay home so easily like she can, but I don't know I think there's another way of looking at it. It's not just rich and famous people who can stay home easily. I'm sure she has fans who are in school (maybe college, maybe high school) and whose classes has been moved online.  Or teachers or others who aren't rich but can work from home.  Maybe they're still trying to hang with their friends, party, etcetera thinking they're too young for this to affect them.  Or maybe it's a fan who has to go to work, but is also still going out to socialize.  Maybe this message somehow reaches them and makes them think.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 19, 2020, 07:56:24 AM

@ chino's post.  I find it staggering that there are still many people/organizations failing to grasp the gravity of this.

See Exhibit A: Clearwater Beach / Florida Spring Breakers

Also, what Lethean said.  Celebrities (of whatever mean) carry influence and have followers.  If they can influence people to follow their actions, I'm all for that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 19, 2020, 07:59:16 AM

A DT fan came to a preshow I was hosting in Baltimore a couple of years ago.  He ended up helping me big time, we became friends, and together hosted the recent preshows in DC in April (over 80 attendees) and Baltimore in October (over 50 attendees).  If anyone here attended, he was the bearded guy with the skulls. :D

Last night, him and his wife took their two year old daughter to the E.R., because she had a 104.7 temperature.  From his Fbook

Coronavirus screening was in being done at Carroll County Hospital, before we even walked in the door. We were asked questions about travel and symptoms. Also, w visitation/escort procedures had been altered- my wife had to go back with her alone while I waited in the car.  My daughter's fever was brought down with Motrin and Tylenol, and she is currently OK.

She tested negative for the Flu and RSV.

Since fever is a symptom of COVID-19, it is a possibility. But my daughter could not be tested for it because the doctor said they are only testing critical patients, because there aren't enough test kits yet. He recommended we self quarantine for 14 days, and we will.

Downright scary, as most people who get COVID-19 will not be critical. We should be doing more testing. The quarantine is just a recommendation. I am sure some people won't follow if they have the same experience.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 19, 2020, 08:08:27 AM

I work at a hospital. My perspective changed drastically today.
That's all I can say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 19, 2020, 08:14:53 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 19, 2020, 07:38:00 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:48:20 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:45:16 PM

If we're gonna be adults about it we should be able to discuss someone's point without rolling out the carpet of shame to walk them down, yeah?

See, you keep saying stuff like this lately, and I can't help but wonder: what have you done with Katt, and how did you get his login credentials?

:hearts:

My name is Dusty Rhodes, daddy, and I showed Katt hard times.

You owe me a new keyboard.   

OMG I missed that completely.

 :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 19, 2020, 08:24:14 AM

(https://e3.365dm.com/20/03/1600x900/skynews-coronavirus-italy_4950594.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20200319040121)

Italy is using their military to transport bodies because their crematoriums don't have the capacity to handle them all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on March 19, 2020, 09:18:51 AM

Only being that guy because it's you Chino, but MirrorMask posted that further up the page.

But damn. Yeah hopefully we can slow this down so our medical infrastructure can handle it when it really hits.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 19, 2020, 09:20:20 AM

I thought I saw a caption in the news last night that the Navy was going to send in a 100-bed hospital ship to the New York area/ports?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 19, 2020, 09:24:04 AM

Quote from: Implode on March 19, 2020, 09:18:51 AM

Only being that guy because it's you Chino, but MirrorMask posted that further up the page.

But damn. Yeah hopefully we can slow this down so our medical infrastructure can handle it when it really hits.

 :facepalm: I knew I had seen it somewhere. My bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 19, 2020, 09:27:45 AM

That exponential curve...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/19/health/us-coronavirus-case-updates-thursday/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/19/health/us-coronavirus-case-updates-thursday/index.html)

This is set to explode by next week, also part of that is more testing is becoming available and that's confirming what a lot of us probably suspect... it's out there more than we know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 09:50:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 19, 2020, 07:38:00 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2020, 02:48:20 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 18, 2020, 02:45:16 PM

If we're gonna be adults about it we should be able to discuss someone's point without rolling out the carpet of shame to walk them down, yeah?

See, you keep saying stuff like this lately, and I can't help but wonder: what have you done with Katt, and how did you get his login credentials?

:hearts:

My name is Dusty Rhodes, daddy, and I showed Katt hard times.

You owe me a new keyboard.   

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 19, 2020, 10:06:10 AM

Took yesterday off of work to study for a test that I am no longer able to take cause of the shut downs. In that time they've kicked almost everyone out of the dorms where I work and we're discouraging in person therapy. Few hours into the day and I've already had two abrupt terminations by phone because of it all.


Again, I do not like this virus. Not one bit!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:12:01 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 19, 2020, 06:13:35 AM

So I was ranting on this last night and I wasn't sure where to post it...but Lady Gaga posted that she is self quarantining.Really? Who fucking cares. Do you have it? Are there doctors orders?
No, so how about shutting the fuck up? You're staying home in your well stocked mansion and riding it out. Self quarantining….fuck you!

Quote from: Grappler on March 19, 2020, 06:45:33 AM

I'm on TAC's side.  I don't need to read about any other celebrities self quarantining.  Sure, the message is great and maybe they can influence some impressionable fan to stay home, but there's a difference between someone affluent doing it and a regular schmoe doing it. 

Lady Gaga isn't stuck in a 1200 square foot house with two young kids, a daily job to try and manage (while working from home), worrying about groceries, dealing with spouse wishing you could get away from work to help with the kids (and complaining when the boss says you should come in) and all of the other things that we all have to do.

I get what you guys are saying.  I completely do.  And I sympathize with how you feel, because part of me feels that way too.  Yeah, I'm sure Lady Gaga has it rough being quarantined in her gigantic house with enough amenities to eat first class and be entertained for months on end without even having to think about running out of money. 

But here's an alternate perspective:  I think a lot of those messages are actually well-intentioned and not meant to be sanctimonious at all.  They are meant to reach the people that are NOT inclined to follow the rules, or NOT paying attention to what is really going on.  And, let's face it, Lady Gaga is going to reach a LOT more people than you or I.  So if the word gets out, regardless of what we might think about the messenger, it's good that the word is getting out.  I saw a similar message from Billie Eilish yesterday in my YouTube feed.  My immediate reaction was, "why am I getting her in my YouTube feed?  I'm not even a fan."  And then I listened, and as I was listening, part of me was saying, "Eh, she's not telling me anything I need to hear, and I'm borderline bothered by a few things she is saying."  But the point is, that isn't aimed at me.  It's aimed at people that will listen to her, that otherwise wouldn't take the message to heart.  And it's good that she's reaching those people who might not otherwise be responsible and might be swayed by what she has to say.  That really isn't a bad thing.

I know everyone is a bit on edge right now, but let's just try to keep it positive as much as we can.  I urge you to try to see the good in how people are choosing to handle this, even where we might not agree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:13:01 AM

Quote from: Dave_Manchester on March 18, 2020, 04:30:55 PM

[words]

Let's keep the political discourse in PR where it belongs, please.  Thank you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:20:13 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 19, 2020, 03:20:51 AM

This sucks.

(https://www.ansa.it/webimages/img_457x/2020/3/18/4a5b5c1e80909b151ce8f6b55deb4f0b.JPG)

This is a photo of the army carrying coffins outside of the Bergamo province (one of the most hit), because there is no more room in the cemeteries and they need to be cremated elsewhere.

I don't understand.  Why do they need to move them?

*Caveat:  I am not calling into question the truth of what you are saying at all--it just seems very strange to me, so I am just trying to understand, that's all.

The reason I ask the question is that, according to reported data, Italy has had just under 3,000 deaths so far.  I am not trying to minimize or trivialize 3,000 deaths.  Not one bit.  BUT, in the grand scheme of things, especially when talking about infrastructure, why is that number significant enough to warrant not being able to dispose of the bodies?  That is less than 5 1000ths of a percent of Italy's population, and they aren't even all in the same area.  Can you shed some light?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 19, 2020, 10:21:44 AM

Here's an idea. Let's close all air, rail, and road traffic out of popular Spring break destinations. Can any good come of letting these people scatter back to all corners of the country? And since we don't want these dipshits thinking this is a good thing, let's let hotels auction off the rooms at whatever price gouging rates they want. It'll be good for the hospitality industry and punish selfish bastards who don't give a damn about anybody other than themselves. And lastly, let's temporarily raise the drinking age in Florida to 30, for good measure. I don't give a damn what celebrities think about this, and hearing their opinions doesn't offend me in the slightest. Spring break people piss me off, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:23:05 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 19, 2020, 10:06:10 AM

Took yesterday off of work to study for a test that I am not longer able top take cause of the shut downs. In that time they've kicked almost everyone out of the dorms where I work and we're discouraging in person therapy. Few hours into the day and I've already had two abrupt terminations by phone because of it all.


Again, I do not like this virus. Not one bit!

 :(  So sorry, bro.  Truly, I am.  These are the kinds of stories that quite honestly have me worried the most for where all of this is going.  How do we run a society when people cannot earn a living, and for many, their careers may even be over through no fault of their own?  I just don't know what to say, but I feel for you, man.  Hang in there.  I'm not sure how, but we'll get through this.  :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 19, 2020, 10:23:46 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:12:01 AM

words

 ;D


I hear you.

It just came off to me as “Look at me”-ish.

It had nothing to do about being rich.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 10:24:31 AM

I wonder how many people who are bad at Lady Gaga and other celebrities are mad at rock and metal bands for posting about how they're quarantining themselves or working out of the home or asking for money through crowdfunding? Is that less annoying for whatever reason?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:24:48 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 19, 2020, 10:21:44 AM

Here's an idea. Let's close all air, rail, and road traffic out of popular Spring break destinations. Can any good come of letting these people scatter back to all corners of the country? And since we don't want these dipshits thinking this is a good thing, let's let hotels auction off the rooms at whatever price gouging rates they want. It'll be good for the hospitality industry and punish selfish bastards who don't give a damn about anybody other than themselves. And lastly, let's temporarily raise the drinking age in Florida to 30, for good measure. I don't give a damn what celebrities think about this, and hearing their opinions doesn't offend me in the slightest. Spring break people piss me off, though.

For my own mental state, and the well-being of my family and everyone else around me, I have been trying VERY hard not to let anything make me angry or otherwise negative.  But, man, I SO agree with everything you just said!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 19, 2020, 10:25:39 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:23:05 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 19, 2020, 10:06:10 AM

Took yesterday off of work to study for a test that I am not longer able top take cause of the shut downs. In that time they've kicked almost everyone out of the dorms where I work and we're discouraging in person therapy. Few hours into the day and I've already had two abrupt terminations by phone because of it all.


Again, I do not like this virus. Not one bit!

 :(  So sorry, bro.  Truly, I am.  These are the kinds of stories that quite honestly have me worried the most for where all of this is going.  How do we run a society when people cannot earn a living, and for many, their careers may even be over through no fault of their own?  I just don't know what to say, but I feel for you, man.  Hang in there.  I'm not sure how, but we'll get through this.  :hug:

I appreciate that. I don't want my venting to come as more dire than me venting about being very inconvenienced. I happen to be extremely fortunate that my position is salary and not based on clients. Theoretically, I could see 0 clients and get paid the same. That said, I still need accrued hours for licensure, which is in jeopardy, and our contracts state we can be terminated whenever necessary. For the moment? Despite all of this, I am one of the more fortunate people out there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 19, 2020, 10:27:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 10:24:31 AM

I wonder how many people who are bad at Lady Gaga and other celebrities are mad at rock and metal bands for posting about how they're quarantining themselves or working out of the home or asking for money through crowdfunding? Is that less annoying for whatever reason?

A very good point. Devin Townsend quarantined and wrote a song and a lot of us sent him money (I would've if I had any to spare) but Lady Gaga reports that she's self-quarantining and everyone gets pissy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 19, 2020, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:13:01 AM

Quote from: Dave_Manchester on March 18, 2020, 04:30:55 PM

[words]

Let's keep the political discourse in PR where it belongs, please.  Thank you.

Since politics in this thread is inevitable, couldn't we move posts to the appropriate forum rather than delete them entirely?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 19, 2020, 10:29:07 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 10:24:31 AM

I wonder how many people who are bad at Lady Gaga and other celebrities are mad at rock and metal bands for posting about how they're quarantining themselves or working out of the home or asking for money through crowdfunding? Is that less annoying for whatever reason?

Well, look at the comments on the new Rhapsody crowdfunding.  People mad that they're asking fans for money, accusing them of being selfish, suggesting they get day jobs, or accusing them of being greedy because they probably have millions in the bank.  :(

So everyone seems to be fair game, sadly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 19, 2020, 10:29:26 AM

@Bosk: the army needed to move the coffins away because, not nationwide but in the specific province of Bergamo (40-50 KM N/E of Milan), the situations is very tragic and the cemeteries simply don't have rooms for so many coffins at the same time.

Bergamo, while being a province, is not exactly a metropolis, and the surrounding towns and cities are even smaller. They weren't simply not prepared to handle so many deaths at the same time. Hospitals are full, cemeteries are full too and without a funeral possible, cremation is the way to go - there's no enough room even in cemeteries to keep the coffins, so they take them away elsewhere for the cremation.

I admit I don't know what's precisely going on with funeral arrangements; funeral temselves are forbidden, so there won't be a cerimony, but I assume that not even being able to bury everybody at the same time, cremation is the way to go. And since the cemeteries can't even handle those cremations, they need to happen elsewhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dave_Manchester on March 19, 2020, 10:30:50 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 19, 2020, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:13:01 AM

Quote from: Dave_Manchester on March 18, 2020, 04:30:55 PM

[words]

Let's keep the political discourse in PR where it belongs, please.  Thank you.

Since politics in this thread is inevitable, couldn't we move posts to the appropriate forum rather than delete them entirely?

My posts were completely deleted rather than simply moved?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 19, 2020, 10:31:26 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:20:13 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 19, 2020, 03:20:51 AM

This sucks.

(https://www.ansa.it/webimages/img_457x/2020/3/18/4a5b5c1e80909b151ce8f6b55deb4f0b.JPG)

This is a photo of the army carrying coffins outside of the Bergamo province (one of the most hit), because there is no more room in the cemeteries and they need to be cremated elsewhere.

I don't understand.  Why do they need to move them?

*Caveat:  I am not calling into question the truth of what you are saying at all--it just seems very strange to me, so I am just trying to understand, that's all.

The reason I ask the question is that, according to reported data, Italy has had just under 3,000 deaths so far.  I am not trying to minimize or trivialize 3,000 deaths.  Not one bit.  BUT, in the grand scheme of things, especially when talking about infrastructure, why is that number significant enough to warrant not being able to dispose of the bodies?  That is less than 5 1000ths of a percent of Italy's population, and they aren't even all in the same area.  Can you shed some light?

They're not moving them out of Italy  but out of Bergamo, a 120000 inhabitants town which is suffering circa 1/5 of the whole Italian death toll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

I haven't been following, but I assumed such things have already been said in the "politics of Coronavirus" thread.  But I am happy to restore them and move them there if people like.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 19, 2020, 10:32:13 AM

Quote from: Lethean on March 19, 2020, 10:29:07 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 10:24:31 AM

I wonder how many people who are bad at Lady Gaga and other celebrities are mad at rock and metal bands for posting about how they're quarantining themselves or working out of the home or asking for money through crowdfunding? Is that less annoying for whatever reason?

Well, look at the comments on the new Rhapsody crowdfunding.  People mad that they're asking fans for money, accusing them of being selfish, suggesting they get day jobs, or accusing them of being greedy because they probably have millions in the bank.  :(

So everyone seems to be fair game, sadly.

I've seen people ripping on Devin Townsend the same way "he's worth millions and shouldn't be asking for money"  :facepalm: no, these artists are not worth millions and yes they do need support.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 19, 2020, 10:32:19 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

I haven't been following, but I assumed such things have already been said in the "politics of Coronavirus" thread.  But I am happy to restore them and move them there if people like.

Please do :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 19, 2020, 10:34:02 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

I haven't been following, but I assumed such things have already been said in the "politics of Coronavirus" thread.  But I am happy to restore them and move them there if people like.

Yes please and thank you!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:34:09 AM

@Indiscipline and MM: Thanks for the clarification.  Again, not trying to offend with my post, but it just didn't add up to me, so I wanted to try to understand.  I appreciate the responses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 19, 2020, 10:36:16 AM

If you deleted mine, I wouldn't mind them being moved to the PR thread instead. I touched on the racism bit and would rather have it restored than have to say it again eventually. Thanks!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: Lethean on March 19, 2020, 10:29:07 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 10:24:31 AM

I wonder how many people who are bad at Lady Gaga and other celebrities are mad at rock and metal bands for posting about how they're quarantining themselves or working out of the home or asking for money through crowdfunding? Is that less annoying for whatever reason?

Well, look at the comments on the new Rhapsody crowdfunding.  People mad that they're asking fans for money, accusing them of being selfish, suggesting they get day jobs, or accusing them of being greedy because they probably have millions in the bank.  :(

So everyone seems to be fair game, sadly.

I'm not paying attention to the Rhapsody crowdfunding because every band and their mothers are asking for money and I need mine. Also because Facebook is cancerous (as is the new design they've rolled out for me which is ugly af) so I'm trying to use it less and less until I stop using it entirely :lol

Also, lots of metal fans are ignorant idiots, more on this breaking story at 10.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 19, 2020, 10:38:31 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:34:09 AM

@Indiscipline and MM: Thanks for the clarification.  Again, not trying to offend with my post, but it just didn't add up to me, so I wanted to try to understand.

No offense taken whatsoever. I feel it's my duty, living 15 days in the future, to clarify everything and defuse stress induced by possibly ambigous news.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 19, 2020, 10:42:33 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 19, 2020, 10:38:31 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:34:09 AM

@Indiscipline and MM: Thanks for the clarification.  Again, not trying to offend with my post, but it just didn't add up to me, so I wanted to try to understand.

No offense taken whatsoever. I feel it's my duty, living 15 days in the future, to clarify everything and defuse stress induced by possibly ambigous news.  :tup

What a way to put it. "Living 15 days in the future". The simple but very effective lesson that no one was prepared to learn. Italy didn't learn it from China, Europe didn't learn it from Italy, and the USA and the UK didn't learn it either.

And it's ok Bosk, you were more than clear in making your point about having a legit doubt and question, I absolutely did not take it for indifference, don't worry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 19, 2020, 10:42:59 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: Lethean on March 19, 2020, 10:29:07 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 10:24:31 AM

I wonder how many people who are bad at Lady Gaga and other celebrities are mad at rock and metal bands for posting about how they're quarantining themselves or working out of the home or asking for money through crowdfunding? Is that less annoying for whatever reason?

Well, look at the comments on the new Rhapsody crowdfunding.  People mad that they're asking fans for money, accusing them of being selfish, suggesting they get day jobs, or accusing them of being greedy because they probably have millions in the bank.  :(

So everyone seems to be fair game, sadly.

I'm not paying attention to the Rhapsody crowdfunding because every band and their mothers are asking for money and I need mine. Also because Facebook is cancerous (as is the new design they've rolled out for me which is ugly af) so I'm trying to use it less and less until I stop using it entirely :lol

Also, lots of metal fans are ignorant idiots, more on this breaking story at 10.  :lol

No, and I'm not suggesting you should donate to any of them.  Simply saying that people are complaining about metal bands too, not just Lady Gaga.

As for Facebook, I never like they're changes, but use it anyway to keep in touch with people and follow bands.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 19, 2020, 10:52:13 AM

Well, my question about that was more for TAC and the like complaining about pop stars. A friend of mine sent me something about the Rhapsody stuff this morning and it just made me roll my eyes. As one of my friends said, yeah, Luca Turilli's raking in money at that crossroads between 'classical composer' and 'power metal guitarist' :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 19, 2020, 11:03:19 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 19, 2020, 10:52:13 AM

Well, my question about that was more for TAC and the like complaining about pop stars. A friend of mine sent me something about the Rhapsody stuff this morning and it just made me roll my eyes. As one of my friends said, yeah, Luca Turilli's raking in money at that crossroads between 'classical composer' and 'power metal guitarist' :lol

For me, it's not about money or music genre.  It's just the absurdity of someone advising that "it's time for me to self-isolate."  Alex Lifeson mentioned it too and I just laughed, and I love Rush.  Ok, go sit in your house, like we're all doing....there's no need to advise us all that you're staying in. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 19, 2020, 11:11:24 AM

There's no need to advise you maybe - but there are totally people who are influenced by celebrities.  If someone's a huge Rush fan and Alex influences them to stay home, great!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 19, 2020, 11:20:23 AM

Yeah, I think it doesn't hurt anybody that celebrities are posting that, and if people are encouraged by that, then by all means let them do it.

That being said, I stopped browsing Facebook and Reddit by popular, only reading the specific subreddits I'm following which aren't too focused on the virus. It's especially bad on FB, 99% of the posts in my feed are about the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 19, 2020, 11:21:23 AM

Social media distancing is pretty healthy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 19, 2020, 01:09:12 PM

On the topic of social distancing and people advocating for it, my wife got in to a heated discussion with a couple fellow teachers about it. They are not going in to work, and they all have husbands who are now working from home. They were adamant that everyone stay home and don't leave the house otherwise they are putting everyone in danger. "Order take out, get deliveries from your grocery store and Amazo" they said. Who the fuck makes that take-out food, works in those warehouses, stocks grocery store shelves, and drives those delivery trucks? Robots?

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 19, 2020, 11:21:23 AM

Social media distancing is pretty healthy

No doubt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 19, 2020, 01:16:21 PM

https://www.buzzfeed.com/whitneyjefferson/scrubs-viral-clip-social-distancing-spreading-infection?fbclid=IwAR0Pv4OTeOFUmOBPIJttK2shQDuY6Ejwma6HR_o5fDLrnakB_LPFK3ThvQk

Well, Italy passed China's 'released' numbers today.  Their postal union is demanding their offices close due to the deaths of two workers. 

Take out food:  the PTB are not educating people of the 24 hour life span on cardboard.  If you order, be damn careful!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 19, 2020, 01:19:24 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/19/health/new-jersey-coronavirus-family-members-killed/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/19/health/new-jersey-coronavirus-family-members-killed/index.html)

well this is hitting home.  I don't know these people, but I do know a relative of this family.  So sad that the spread through the family from a dinner has lead to so many dying and maybe more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 19, 2020, 01:24:56 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 19, 2020, 11:21:23 AM

Social media distancing is pretty healthy

Amen to that

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 19, 2020, 01:39:45 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 19, 2020, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 19, 2020, 10:13:01 AM

Quote from: Dave_Manchester on March 18, 2020, 04:30:55 PM

[words]

Let's keep the political discourse in PR where it belongs, please.  Thank you.

Since politics in this thread is inevitable, couldn't we move posts to the appropriate forum rather than delete them entirely?

Yeah.... this

Edit: Nvermind... I haven't gone thru then P/R thread yet, but see your comment that you did move them there.   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on March 19, 2020, 04:14:45 PM

I thought this was a very easy and informative video about the virus:

The Coronavirus Explained & What You Should Do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtN-goy9VOY)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 19, 2020, 08:10:25 PM

California issued a statewide shelter in place order.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 19, 2020, 08:37:45 PM

Quote

Grocery stores, pharmacies, banks, cannabis clubs and other businesses deemed as essential are still open, state and local officials say.

Good thing you guys can still go get your groceries, pick up your meds, cash your checks, and grab some weed.

WA state has the highest number of deaths in the US, twice as much as state #2, and our Gov stated he is very hesitant to issue such an order. I am glad, selfishly, as I work in a non-essential field, yet have contact with one or two people in the course of my work week. We are also helping out family members who are working from home yet have two small children to care for as well.

Dang and now i just read 41 cases is my city. No breakdown city by city on deaths, just cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 20, 2020, 12:43:03 AM

I'm hoping my job falls into a category that's allowed to stay open. I'll find out tomorrow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 05:47:02 AM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 20, 2020, 12:43:03 AM

I'm hoping my job falls into a category that's allowed to stay open. I'll find out tomorrow.

Are you still doing security? If so then I'd gather you're pretty safe

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 20, 2020, 05:49:58 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 05:47:02 AM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 20, 2020, 12:43:03 AM

I'm hoping my job falls into a category that's allowed to stay open. I'll find out tomorrow.

Are you still doing security? If so then I'd gather you're pretty safe

Yea I'd feel like security is a need.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 20, 2020, 06:02:59 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 19, 2020, 08:10:25 PM

California issued a statewide shelter in place order.

Same thing for Argentina. We are only allowed to go out to the supermarket and the pharmacy. Working from home has been a blessing since it at least keeps me entertained but we have a 4 day weekend ahead. I will need to be creative in order not to lose it

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 20, 2020, 06:11:43 AM

Fully expecting that order to come very soon in Minnesota as well. Heck, nationwide in the US really. Stocked up on groceries a bit yesterday, seeing my parents tonight for probably the last time in a while. Thankfully I can work from home and my company (medical device) is likely to be deemed necessary to continue even after others have shut down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 20, 2020, 06:31:40 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on March 20, 2020, 05:49:58 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 05:47:02 AM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 20, 2020, 12:43:03 AM

I'm hoping my job falls into a category that's allowed to stay open. I'll find out tomorrow.

Are you still doing security? If so then I'd gather you're pretty safe

Yea I'd feel like security is a need.

I thought he recently started a new job for an insurance company? Or was that somebody else?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 20, 2020, 07:07:50 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 20, 2020, 06:11:43 AM

Fully expecting that order to come very soon in Minnesota as well. Heck, nationwide in the US really. Stocked up on groceries a bit yesterday, seeing my parents tonight for probably the last time in a while. Thankfully I can work from home and my company (medical device) is likely to be deemed necessary to continue even after others have shut down.

I went to the grocery store yesterday and things are getting back in stock which is nice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 20, 2020, 07:12:09 AM

So much talk about "facts over fear" (the slogan of a local news station here) and "let's not panic", and yet, my town - 45,000 people, +/- - just had their first confirmed case, a 26-year-old.   You would think that the Huns just landed on the river bank (no offense to any Huns in the audience; it's a figure of speech).   

I think at some point, the leaders that are doing a good or great job (my governor, good, Cuomo, great; my opinion only) should probably start to articulate what the "new" normal looks like.  Because I don't believe that is "zero cases".   What it is is more like the number of flu cases we have each year and a healthy respect for a) those that have it, and b) how that moves from person to person to keep it at a manageable number.

I think it's unrealistic to expect that on July 1st (or whenever) the country is going to miraculously be virus free.   So how do we coexist with our "enemy" while fighting this "war"?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ChuckSteak on March 20, 2020, 07:27:41 AM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETENri_UYAAOiOI.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/2F0Tj08/89691736-220963889292866-7779612518242058240-o.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 20, 2020, 07:38:21 AM

 :eek :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 20, 2020, 07:46:41 AM

 :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 07:48:31 AM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 20, 2020, 07:54:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 20, 2020, 07:12:09 AM

So much talk about "facts over fear" (the slogan of a local news station here) and "let's not panic", and yet, my town - 45,000 people, +/- - just had their first confirmed case, a 26-year-old.   You would think that the Huns just landed on the river bank (no offense to any Huns in the audience; it's a figure of speech).   

I think at some point, the leaders that are doing a good or great job (my governor, good, Cuomo, great; my opinion only) should probably start to articulate what the "new" normal looks like.  Because I don't believe that is "zero cases".   What it is is more like the number of flu cases we have each year and a healthy respect for a) those that have it, and b) how that moves from person to person to keep it at a manageable number.

I think it's unrealistic to expect that on July 1st (or whenever) the country is going to miraculously be virus free.   So how do we coexist with our "enemy" while fighting this "war"?

I think you're spot on with the 2nd paragraph, Bill.  The reason people are freaking out is because everywhere starts with just 1 case.  And that person likely contracted it 10-ish days ago, and has been infectious/transmitting for that time frame.  1 case is just like one dry burning ember in the middle of a dry forest.

A good analogy I heard was that if a meteorologist told us of an incoming cat-5 hurricane, what would society do?  Well, this is quite very likely bigger than a Cat-5 (medical) hurricane.  So, what should society be doing?  It's just one case afterall.  It's like "it's just grey skies at the moment" , but there's a developing weather system a 50 miles off the coast.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 07:58:34 AM

Instead of restricting their hours grocery stores need to be expanding them. When you cut your hours by a third all you do is increase shopper concentration by a third. People should be able to shop at 0200. I was in Central Market within 10 minutes of the doors opening and it looked like the day before Thanksgiving. That is not what's going to help slow the spread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 20, 2020, 08:14:46 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 07:58:34 AM

Instead of restricting their hours grocery stores need to be expanding them. When you cut your hours by a third all you do is increase shopper concentration by a third. People should be able to shop at 0200. I was in Central Market within 10 minutes of the doors opening and it looked like the day before Thanksgiving. That is not what's going to help slow the spread.

Yeah, I had this same thought yesterday. I know they want to be able to stock shelves without being mobbed and clean a little more than normal. But concentrating everyone into a narrower window is not great for distancing ourselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 08:16:50 AM

I was also thinking, with people losing jobs but groceries and deliveries and supply chain are all being stressed.  Maybe we can shift people to these jobs where they can be really useful?  Maybe it's already happening, but having grocery stores open say 20 hours (4 hours of restocking/cleaning) and hiring some extra hands from the pool of people unemployed would be beneficial to all? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 20, 2020, 08:19:11 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 08:16:50 AM

I was also thinking, with people losing jobs but groceries and deliveries and supply chain are all being stressed.  Maybe we can shift people to these jobs where they can be really useful?  Maybe it's already happening, but having grocery stores open say 20 hours (4 hours of restocking/cleaning) and hiring some extra hands from the pool of people unemployed would be beneficial to all?

Not a bad idea, also even hiring people to increase grocery delivery. Not sure if the stores have the resources for that, but if so it's a good idea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 08:23:13 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 08:16:50 AM

I was also thinking, with people losing jobs but groceries and deliveries and supply chain are all being stressed.  Maybe we can shift people to these jobs where they can be really useful?  Maybe it's already happening, but having grocery stores open say 20 hours (4 hours of restocking/cleaning) and hiring some extra hands from the pool of people unemployed would be beneficial to all?

This part actually is happening. Krogers is looking to hire 10k. At the same time it kind of sounds like an episode from Star Trek that I watched yesterday, where people signed on to do a highly dangerous job in exchange for a massive paycheck that'll go to their next of kin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 08:24:50 AM

Gosh, a company forcing call center employees to come in rather than work from home, which they're uniquely equipped to manage. I wonder which company would do such a thing?

https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/18/charter-coronavirus-offices/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 20, 2020, 08:36:47 AM

Looks like a hospital in Boston has got their hands on the files needed to 3D print N95 masks. They're seeking people with 3D printers to help meet their demand.

(https://3dprintingcenter.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Copper-3D-hackthepandemic-02.jpg)
(https://3dprintingcenter.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Copper-3D-hackthepandemic-01.jpg)

I know a few people at the hospital down the street from me. Even though my efforts would be small, I'm going to see if I can help them out at all. I can make a complete mask in about 3.5 hours not counting fitting. This thing is usually running around the clock anyway, so if they could use some, I'm happy to make as many as I can.

(https://i.imgur.com/QDVK5p7l.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 20, 2020, 08:40:26 AM

Chino, I'm REALLY impressed by that.  That's the kind of "out of the box" thinking we could use a lot more of.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 20, 2020, 08:46:34 AM

That's great, Chino!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

That's awesome Chino

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 08:51:07 AM

Very cool Chino, now I feel even extra worthless. :p

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 20, 2020, 08:54:31 AM

That's cool. I assume they have filters they can use with it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 20, 2020, 09:04:08 AM

Thanks y'all..

Quote from: lordxizor on March 20, 2020, 08:54:31 AM

That's cool. I assume they have filters they can use with it?

They can use any polypropylene non-woven fabric. Lots of other types of masks use that material. Circles can be cut out of conventional masks and inserted into the filter. Makeup removal pads will also work and should drop right in.

There's lots of talks on whether these are FDA approved and if hospitals will use them. The general consensus seems to be, at least from the doctors at the Boston hospital, if shit hits the fan, they don't care if they're approved or not. The masks won't make things worse, and if it's a matter of life or death, they'll take anything with a filter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 20, 2020, 09:07:17 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 08:23:13 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 08:16:50 AM

I was also thinking, with people losing jobs but groceries and deliveries and supply chain are all being stressed.  Maybe we can shift people to these jobs where they can be really useful?  Maybe it's already happening, but having grocery stores open say 20 hours (4 hours of restocking/cleaning) and hiring some extra hands from the pool of people unemployed would be beneficial to all?

This part actually is happening. Krogers is looking to hire 10k. At the same time it kind of sounds like an episode from Star Trek that I watched yesterday, where people signed on to do a highly dangerous job in exchange for a massive paycheck that'll go to their next of kin.

There is a local grocer called 'Schnucks' in the St. Louis area (not sure if they're anywhere else) but they're a pretty large grocer.....They just sent out a message saying they're looking to hire as well....for these reasons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 20, 2020, 09:09:08 AM

Unsurprisingly, the death rate in Wuhan was significantly lower than initial estimates. I personally suspect the death rate is even lower than this due to mild cases and non-symptomatic carriers never being tested or even speaking to a doctor. Not that a 1% death rate is anything to discount. It's still terrible. It's just not the 5+% that people were fearing.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wuhan-death-rate-from-coronavirus-lower-than-previously-estimated-study-finds-2020-03-20?mod=home-page

Quote

The study, published Thursday in the journal Nature Medicine, found that the death rate among people who had symptoms was 1.4% in Wuhan, China, as of Feb. 29.

That rate is lower than previous estimates of mortality rates for Covid-19, the disease caused by the new virus, in Wuhan and China overall. A report by an international mission of experts led by the World Health Organization reported last month that the mortality rate in Wuhan was 5.8% in the first several weeks of the epidemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 20, 2020, 09:14:36 AM

I've heard Costco around here is looking for seasonal/temp workers.

Chino... you're a downright badass.   :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 20, 2020, 09:23:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 20, 2020, 08:36:47 AM

Looks like a hospital in Boston has got their hands on the files needed to 3D print N95 masks. They're seeking people with 3D printers to help meet their demand.

I admit, when I heard last night about the request and publishing of the file I thought of you and your project for your dad. Nice work, Chino. You, da man!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM

The long-term effect on society should be quite fascinating. Blue Apron is sailing right now, for obvious reasons. Every restaurant I might be inclined to get food from has converted to no-touch pickup service. I'm placing my first ever online grocery order for pickup. Grubhub is booming. A whole lot of people are going to shift the way they do these sorts of things moving forward. The James Burke fan in me finds the society evolution aspect of this quite interesting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:11:52 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM

The long-term effect on society should be quite fascinating. Blue Apron is sailing right now, for obvious reasons. Every restaurant I might be inclined to get food from has converted to no-touch pickup service. I'm placing my first ever online grocery order for pickup. Grubhub is booming. A whole lot of people are going to shift the way they do these sorts of things moving forward. The James Burke fan in me finds the society evolution aspect of this quite interesting.

Been thinking about this too.  Movie theaters are shut down and movies that would be coming out in theaters are getting fast tracked to an immediate streaming release... like who's going to request to go back to the old school show it in theaters mode after this?

Lots of athletes, celebrities, and artists have gone to twitch.tv to stream as a form of income or just something to do.  How many keep doing this instead of traditional media? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2020, 10:15:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:11:52 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM

The long-term effect on society should be quite fascinating. Blue Apron is sailing right now, for obvious reasons. Every restaurant I might be inclined to get food from has converted to no-touch pickup service. I'm placing my first ever online grocery order for pickup. Grubhub is booming. A whole lot of people are going to shift the way they do these sorts of things moving forward. The James Burke fan in me finds the society evolution aspect of this quite interesting.

Been thinking about this too.  Movie theaters are shut down and movies that would be coming out in theaters are getting fast tracked to an immediate streaming release... like who's going to request to go back to the old school show it in theaters mode after this?

Don't count it out. I will always prefer watching a film on a giant screen with a huge sound system. When The Interview was fast-tracked to Netflix or whatever some years ago, I still saw it in theaters. Way too easy to get distracted watching at home imo. I thought the fast-track option would boom after that incident, but it didn't. I think you could see big numbers if it was a Marvel film or something, but even then you'd still have people flooding the theaters for it.

Although currently during the pandemic I see it making bank. Black Widow comes out in a couple months, yeah? Maybe that'll be the test!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 20, 2020, 10:18:08 AM

Just think what the current situation means to live theater. I'm wondering why we're not being put to social utility work yet since there's no way we are gonna be back to work until next winter season. We should be allowed to help while unemployed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 20, 2020, 10:18:46 AM

I'd still pick a nice movie theater any day of the week. I was sad I couldn't see Irishman in one, but can't imagine watching 1917 for the first time on my TV.

I'm not sure if there will be enough demand to sustain the business, but plenty of people still want theaters and the theater experience.



Also I haven't heard word on Black Widow's new release date, just that it was postponed. Did I miss it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:19:40 AM

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if many theaters go out of business.  All are forced to close here, but the ones that come back would be surviving only on the few people who really do enjoy it and it would probably be more exclusive.  Sort of how drive in theaters became rare for a long time before finally disappearing.  I'm just thinking aloud really, I'm not saying this will happen, but when you give people a convenience it's hard to pull it away after awhile, which is key I guess to any of these future impacts, it all depends on how long this lasts.

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 20, 2020, 10:18:08 AM

Just think what the current situation means to live theater. I'm wondering why we're not being put to social utility work yet since there's no way we are gonna be back to work until next winter season. We should be able to help while unemployed.

I feel live arts will always have a place, but in terms of finding work, yea, I got to imagine the likes of Amazon and other retailers who are overloaded could use your help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:11:52 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM

The long-term effect on society should be quite fascinating. Blue Apron is sailing right now, for obvious reasons. Every restaurant I might be inclined to get food from has converted to no-touch pickup service. I'm placing my first ever online grocery order for pickup. Grubhub is booming. A whole lot of people are going to shift the way they do these sorts of things moving forward. The James Burke fan in me finds the society evolution aspect of this quite interesting.

Been thinking about this too.  Movie theaters are shut down and movies that would be coming out in theaters are getting fast tracked to an immediate streaming release... like who's going to request to go back to the old school show it in theaters mode after this?

Lots of athletes, celebrities, and artists have gone to twitch.tv to stream as a form of income or just something to do.  How many keep doing this instead of traditional media?

Too much money to be made by live performances. At least with music that's really the only way to make money anymore, and the two of us relish concerts far to much to replace them with a live stream. However, it could certainly open the door for live streams as a supplement. They've been trying that with live streams in theaters, and I certainly wouldn't mind for that to shift to at-home streaming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 20, 2020, 10:21:46 AM

Chino  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 20, 2020, 10:34:00 AM

Coming up on 260k worldwide cases... and Italy hasn't reported yet today.

as for movies... for sure big-budget action/sci-fi is suited to the big screen.  But dramas and comedies?  I rented A Beautiful Day in the Neighbourhood for $4, instead of shelling out $9 ea for mrs.jingle and I to see it.  Those kinds of movies would thrive more in straight-to-streaming / rental.

There will be a number of fundamental business model shifts coming out of this.  One thing that crossed my mind is making a reservation if you want to visit retailers at high traffic time.  I can see limits on the number of people allowed in a store at any given time.  Either make a reservation, or wait in line as a 'walk-in'.  Just as restaurants have a finite capacity at any given time, I can see retail stores having to impose finite capacities.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:39:02 AM

They opened up drive through testing in Bergen County in NJ, near where I work actually.

There's a video on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/117907407522/posts/10157310705362523/?vh=e) of someone driving past it... 90 seconds long of them driving at normal speed past the long line of cars waiting to get into the drive through. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 20, 2020, 10:53:12 AM

Hey Chino, what filament are you using for the mask? My brother has a 3d printer and a bunch of rolls lying around, but do you need a special antimicrobial filament?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 20, 2020, 11:10:25 AM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 20, 2020, 10:53:12 AM

Hey Chino, what filament are you using for the mask? My brother has a 3d printer and a bunch of rolls lying around, but do you need a special antimicrobial filament?

I'm using PLA. It's not industry standard. But like I said above, Dr.s will take whatever they can get right now and have even said they'll make the executive decision to forgo the traditional safety standards if it means having a filter that works. I figure it can't hurt to make a few.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 20, 2020, 11:14:37 AM

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Damn. Italy's numbers are so depressing. We've gotta ride out until the peak and then hopefully start to see the first effects of the nationwide lockdown.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 20, 2020, 11:18:14 AM

It seems the deaths are approaching half (or less) of yearly flu deaths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 20, 2020, 11:20:46 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 20, 2020, 11:14:37 AM

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Damn. Italy's numbers are so depressing. We've gotta ride out until the peak and then hopefully start to see the first effects of the nationwide lockdown.

Don’t believe Washington State’s reported numbers for one second. They are grossly under reported because we are grossly under testing. Most people are being denied the test unless their symptoms are life-threatening.

I seriously cannot understand why we haven’t been shut down. I’m being told that I have to go to work and be potentially exposed to a lot of people that have been exposed but are not confirmed. No seriously. I have at least two workers on my crew who have been sent home under quarantine because they had family members that tested positive. But because they themselves have not been tested, we are considered to have no confirmed cases reported at our job site. Meaning that we have to go to work and we cannot make a claim to go home.

I cannot and will not lie, so I’m not going to make something up so I can stay home. I just think that the general situation is ridiculous. They need to shut the state down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 20, 2020, 11:26:46 AM

Oh jesus dude.  Cases and deaths are still rising!!!

 :sadpanda: :| :\ :'(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 11:31:44 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 20, 2020, 11:18:14 AM

It seems the deaths are approaching half (or less) of yearly flu deaths.

And if the curve on the graph continues.  It will pass flu sooner than later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 20, 2020, 11:32:34 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 11:31:44 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 20, 2020, 11:18:14 AM

It seems the deaths are approaching half (or less) of yearly flu deaths.

And if the curve on the graph continues.  It will pass flu sooner than later.

Yea, that's what I was alluding to. Nuts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 20, 2020, 11:56:44 AM

And this is our 'leadership' (?) when asked a simple question about what he has to say to Americans and their fears

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/watch-trump-blows-up-on-terrible-nbc-reporter-peter-alexander-for-grilling-him-over-coronavirus-medication/

He couldn't have been given more of a lay up question than if he was given a ball next to a six foot hoop with no defender in sight, and that's how he reacts!?!?!  There were a handful of times where Anthony Fauci corrected or contradicted what the current occupant had previously stated today.  Wonder if he'll get talked down or replaced soon for stating the truth.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 20, 2020, 12:04:57 PM

The looks on the faces of the two Drs in the background says it all.

POTUS is going to crack under the pressure of this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 12:10:05 PM

He already is, he looks like shit. (looks more like shit?)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 20, 2020, 12:13:30 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:11:52 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM

The long-term effect on society should be quite fascinating. Blue Apron is sailing right now, for obvious reasons. Every restaurant I might be inclined to get food from has converted to no-touch pickup service. I'm placing my first ever online grocery order for pickup. Grubhub is booming. A whole lot of people are going to shift the way they do these sorts of things moving forward. The James Burke fan in me finds the society evolution aspect of this quite interesting.

Been thinking about this too.  Movie theaters are shut down and movies that would be coming out in theaters are getting fast tracked to an immediate streaming release... like who's going to request to go back to the old school show it in theaters mode after this?

Lots of athletes, celebrities, and artists have gone to twitch.tv to stream as a form of income or just something to do.  How many keep doing this instead of traditional media?

Too much money to be made by live performances. At least with music that's really the only way to make money anymore, and the two of us relish concerts far to much to replace them with a live stream. However, it could certainly open the door for live streams as a supplement. They've been trying that with live streams in theaters, and I certainly wouldn't mind for that to shift to at-home streaming.

Except in the rarest of cases, I'm not replacing concert-going with live streams.  I'm sure others have different priorities or wants with this, but for me, the joy of a live show is that inherent feeling of being in the same room with the bands I like. Now, 350 +/- concerts in, it's even more personal:  I like shows in smaller venues where I can catch the eye of the bass player Sheehan), or shake hands with the guitar player (Blackmore), or meet the singer outside the venue after (Squier, Barden).  Can't do that over an internet feed.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 20, 2020, 12:22:53 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 20, 2020, 12:13:30 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:11:52 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM

The long-term effect on society should be quite fascinating. Blue Apron is sailing right now, for obvious reasons. Every restaurant I might be inclined to get food from has converted to no-touch pickup service. I'm placing my first ever online grocery order for pickup. Grubhub is booming. A whole lot of people are going to shift the way they do these sorts of things moving forward. The James Burke fan in me finds the society evolution aspect of this quite interesting.

Been thinking about this too.  Movie theaters are shut down and movies that would be coming out in theaters are getting fast tracked to an immediate streaming release... like who's going to request to go back to the old school show it in theaters mode after this?

Lots of athletes, celebrities, and artists have gone to twitch.tv to stream as a form of income or just something to do.  How many keep doing this instead of traditional media?

Too much money to be made by live performances. At least with music that's really the only way to make money anymore, and the two of us relish concerts far to much to replace them with a live stream. However, it could certainly open the door for live streams as a supplement. They've been trying that with live streams in theaters, and I certainly wouldn't mind for that to shift to at-home streaming.

Except in the rarest of cases, I'm not replacing concert-going with live streams.  I'm sure others have different priorities or wants with this, but for me, the joy of a live show is that inherent feeling of being in the same room with the bands I like.

That's how I feel with movies. I obviously watch more movies at home, but that's just out of scheduling and such. But I would never get rid of the movie theater experience.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 20, 2020, 12:25:20 PM

Illinois is expected to be shut down and in a shelter in place as of tomorrow.  My wife just raced off to the grocery store, since the idiots will all probably run out tonight to clear the shelves again.   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 20, 2020, 12:29:24 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 20, 2020, 12:25:20 PM

Illinois is expected to be shut down and in a shelter in place as of tomorrow.  My wife just raced off to the grocery store, since the idiots will all probably run out tonight to clear the shelves again.   :facepalm:

Just saw that. It seems we will be allowed to go to the grocery store, pharmacy and get gas even with the order in place. But, yeah, hoarders gonna hoard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 20, 2020, 12:34:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 20, 2020, 12:13:30 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 10:11:52 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM

The long-term effect on society should be quite fascinating. Blue Apron is sailing right now, for obvious reasons. Every restaurant I might be inclined to get food from has converted to no-touch pickup service. I'm placing my first ever online grocery order for pickup. Grubhub is booming. A whole lot of people are going to shift the way they do these sorts of things moving forward. The James Burke fan in me finds the society evolution aspect of this quite interesting.

Been thinking about this too.  Movie theaters are shut down and movies that would be coming out in theaters are getting fast tracked to an immediate streaming release... like who's going to request to go back to the old school show it in theaters mode after this?

Lots of athletes, celebrities, and artists have gone to twitch.tv to stream as a form of income or just something to do.  How many keep doing this instead of traditional media?

Too much money to be made by live performances. At least with music that's really the only way to make money anymore, and the two of us relish concerts far to much to replace them with a live stream. However, it could certainly open the door for live streams as a supplement. They've been trying that with live streams in theaters, and I certainly wouldn't mind for that to shift to at-home streaming.

Except in the rarest of cases, I'm not replacing concert-going with live streams.  I'm sure others have different priorities or wants with this, but for me, the joy of a live show is that inherent feeling of being in the same room with the bands I like. Now, 350 +/- concerts in, it's even more personal:  I like shows in smaller venues where I can catch the eye of the bass player Sheehan), or shake hands with the guitar player (Blackmore), or meet the singer outside the venue after (Squier, Barden).  Can't do that over an internet feed.

We agree on something Stadler. :)  I will totally stream concerts during this pandemic and if more bands make them available afterwards, I'd probably participate.  But it would only be to supplement, not replace, going to live shows once we're able to do so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 12:44:58 PM

My local amphitheater close by where I live is opening it's lots for drive through testing on Monday morning.  Going to busy in my town next week.  Funny yet terribly sad how I just got my summer pass in the mail for this venue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 20, 2020, 12:52:37 PM

I was the only customer at my usual lunch restaurant today. It's been pretty much the same all week. I really don't want them to have to close down  :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 12:56:18 PM

Quote from: Zydar on March 20, 2020, 12:52:37 PM

I was the only customer at my usual lunch restaurant today. It's been pretty much the same all week. I really don't want them to have to close down  :-\

This is going to suck hard when all these places close down.  My friend owns a car wash, he's worried he will be out of business.  He was actually trying to sell it and had a deal mostly lined up that's now not happening.  I went to grab take out from the local chilis near work (since I was told to report today) and it was weird how they didn't even have the lights on and maybe only a few people working.  Weird times.  Of course I then sanitized myself before eating that food.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 20, 2020, 01:01:10 PM

I went and picked up Chinese for lunch (and dinner) and it was empty, as expected. I talked to the gal and she said they were doing pretty well, though. People had been in to pick up, and delivery was booming. (Then we bitched about how evil Grubhub was  :lol) She said they'd do alright. My concern is all of the Mexican places. Not Texmex, but places run by Mexicans. Depending on their clientele they might have a much rougher go of it, and I eat 20x more Mexican than Chinese.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2020, 01:17:03 PM

Our local Chinese buffet has been closed for 3 days now. They've been here since the 70s, family owned business. Man I hope they make it through this. I went there Sunday at 3 PM and it was completely empty, food trays looked like they hadn't been touched. And just a month or so ago a brand new Chinese restaurant opened up here, first time we've had a second one in over 10 years. I feel so bad for them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 20, 2020, 01:19:32 PM

My dumbass employer just sent out an email asking if any employee would be willing to travel to another location in case someone at that store tests positive and everyone there needs to be quarantined.

Yes, let’s send people straight into the fire.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 20, 2020, 01:24:06 PM

Just informed that I have to work from home for two days next week and likely way more in the very near future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 01:35:35 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

My boss is trying to convince upper management to slightly skew the optics to any potential law enforcement to make our jobs appear necessary.  We do online advertising.  I don't believe it's critical to server ads, but what do I know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 20, 2020, 01:41:08 PM

Get fucked, virus.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/90167069_10163131356145111_7243174581895168_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=3eyCoWMk63YAX_pr6G-&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b7477b9d80bf96439b59c15615db9112&oe=5E9BF3A8)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2020, 01:42:47 PM

Maybe a dumb question but are those 3D printed masks just as effective as the real thing? I ask because of the material used. The shape works... but is the material equally effective at keeping particles out?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 20, 2020, 01:46:41 PM

Nice work Brian!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 20, 2020, 01:52:19 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 20, 2020, 01:42:47 PM

Maybe a dumb question but are those 3D printed masks just as effective as the real thing? I ask because of the material used. The shape works... but is the material equally effective at keeping particles out?

I honestly don't know. That's for the hospitals to decide if they end up getting desperate enough. The material is porous if heavily magnified, but so are most materials. If you were to make a cup out of this material and filled it with water, none would leak through no matter how long you left it sitting. I imagine at the very least it's got to be better than wearing nothing at all. The hole in vents in the cheek, once filled with a filter, would be just as effective as any other mask with a similar vent.  I mean, if someone was coughing around you, would you rather be bare-faced or have this on?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 20, 2020, 01:53:47 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

Damn.  Sorry RJ.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 20, 2020, 01:57:13 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

Bro-hug. Hoping for the best for you, RJ.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 01:57:25 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:53:47 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

Damn.  Sorry RJ.

I totally missed that, sorry RJ that sucks.  We will be hearing about a lot more similar stories soon sadly.  I think they said today there was a 10% increase on unemployment claims and they expect it to go higher.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2020, 01:57:57 PM

So sorry to hear that, RJ. Best of luck to you...

Shelter in place for Illinois to be announced at 3 PM tomorrow. https://www.wcia.com/news/local-news/sources-say-pritzker-plans-to-issue-shelter-in-place-saturday/

My county still only has one reported case, and she's been in quarantine since Sunday which is awesome. However, my friends clean homes, and the two of them got sent home today for possibly being exposed to it. Very small chance - they may have cleaned the home of someone associated with this lady - but I'm hoping they don't have it so they can go back to work in 3 days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on March 20, 2020, 01:59:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

That's harsh RJ  :-\. I hope you can work something out before things get even worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 20, 2020, 02:13:54 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 20, 2020, 11:10:25 AM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 20, 2020, 10:53:12 AM

Hey Chino, what filament are you using for the mask? My brother has a 3d printer and a bunch of rolls lying around, but do you need a special antimicrobial filament?

I'm using PLA. It's not industry standard. But like I said above, Dr.s will take whatever they can get right now and have even said they'll make the executive decision to forgo the traditional safety standards if it means having a filter that works. I figure it can't hurt to make a few.

Right on, hopefully it won't have to come to that, but always good to be prepared!  :tup

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

Sorry to hear that RJ, hopefully the backlog of claims doesn't slow down disbursement of funds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 20, 2020, 02:23:16 PM

This is going to be fun....my company told the majority of employees that they can work from home.  Company has 150+ employees.  We only have 50 licenses to log in from home. 

Looks like I'll be waking up at 5am when I'm allowed to sign on and make sure I can get online before others. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on March 20, 2020, 02:29:08 PM

Sorry, lonestar. That really sucks. I really hope things get better for you and others in your situation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 03:10:35 PM

Thanks all...unemployment should be a no brainer, and my company is covering our insurance as long as we remain employees no matter the hours or lack thereof. I have no issues working at a local grocery store to make a few bucks either, and have a good friend whose in charge of the prepared foods at the local whole foods who'd hire me in an instant if he needs the help.


Still, thanks guys.  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 20, 2020, 03:14:22 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

That blows, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 20, 2020, 03:17:11 PM

I officially got my exemption paperwork from my company in the event Minnesota moves to shelter-in-place and closes everything down. I'm surprised it didn't happen today. I think it's inevitable within the next week and it feels like we're just delaying the inevitable. Glad to know I'll still have a job.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 03:21:31 PM

we are having capacity issues in our LA data center.  Too many people on the internet  :lol but seriously, we are scheduled to upgrade our network to support this need but none of us can travel and obviously we are supposed to keep distance from each other so we physically can't do the necessary infrastructure upgrades.  Things are getting real interesting now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2020, 03:22:12 PM

Shelter in place for Illinois, my boss is giving Pritzker the finger, I'm still working, c'est la vie, saw this coming last week. Whatever, at least I still get paid, and that means everybody else will stay the fuck away so we can get caught up. This is a win win as far as I'm concerned. 4 people work here, we gucci. The next 2 weeks will be fairly easy for me, but I hope it starts to get back to normal the week of April 7th.

I think the shelter in place is more beneficial and effective up in the Chicago metropolitan area but at least people downstate are taking this seriously so I hope we see good numbers in 2-3 weeks... Ideally everybody stays home while we get our work done here, and that'll be the worst of my headaches.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 20, 2020, 03:42:41 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 20, 2020, 03:22:12 PM

Shelter in place for Illinois, my boss is giving Pritzker the finger, I'm still working, c'est la vie, saw this coming last week. Whatever, at least I still get paid, and that means everybody else will stay the fuck away so we can get caught up. This is a win win as far as I'm concerned. 4 people work here, we gucci. The next 2 weeks will be fairly easy for me, but I hope it starts to get back to normal the week of April 7th.

I think the shelter in place is more beneficial and effective up in the Chicago metropolitan area but at least people downstate are taking this seriously so I hope we see good numbers in 2-3 weeks... Ideally everybody stays home while we get our work done here, and that'll be the worst of my headaches.  :(

But if you listened to his conference......he said shelter in place then in the same breath said you can still go to the park, to the store, to the.......like twenty other places. So all he did was create more panic for people who only read headlines.....which is 95% of the population. Already reports of Walmart’s and other stores looking like looting zones because of the panic of ‘stay at home’

Missouri’s Governor backed cities who choose to put a stay at home injunction in place but will not commit to statewide. He realizes St. Louis city is different from Bonne Terre (rural areas) He also is mandating no groups of (10) or more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2020, 03:46:54 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 20, 2020, 03:42:41 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 20, 2020, 03:22:12 PM

Shelter in place for Illinois, my boss is giving Pritzker the finger, I'm still working, c'est la vie, saw this coming last week. Whatever, at least I still get paid, and that means everybody else will stay the fuck away so we can get caught up. This is a win win as far as I'm concerned. 4 people work here, we gucci. The next 2 weeks will be fairly easy for me, but I hope it starts to get back to normal the week of April 7th.

I think the shelter in place is more beneficial and effective up in the Chicago metropolitan area but at least people downstate are taking this seriously so I hope we see good numbers in 2-3 weeks... Ideally everybody stays home while we get our work done here, and that'll be the worst of my headaches.  :(

But if you listened to his conference......he said shelter in place then in the same breath said you can still go to the park, to the store, to the.......like twenty other places. So all he did was create more panic for people who only read headlines.....which is 95% of the population. Already reports of Walmart’s and other stores looking like looting zones because of the panic of ‘stay at home’

Missouri’s Governor backed cities who choose to put a stay at home injunction in place but will not commit to statewide. He realizes St. Louis city is different from Bonne Terre (rural areas) He also is mandating no groups of (10) or more.

That's true, I think the name is a misnomer if we can still go to work, grocery store etc. But I also think people grossly over-panic at the slightest things. People panic when there's a light dusting of snow, so I'm not surprised this is making them panic, but good gravy, get it together, people!!

And yeah. A friend of mine did me a solid while he was out and picked up some beef, and dropped 2 1-pound packs off for me, since I have none and won't get to the store for another 30 minutes. He said our Wal-Mart looks bonkers. I'm gonna go to the local one. It's supposedly not much better. I really wish people would get this dumb panic buying out of their system. Groceries will stay open. There is not a problem with the food supply in this country. LEAVE SOME BEEF FOR THE REST OF US please  >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 20, 2020, 04:33:40 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

My wifes stepdad was just laid off.  This family of auto dealership owners laid off everyone in all departments.  And cancelled their insurance...but offered them Cobra.

How awful.  No job, no insurance, should they get sick...unless they want to pay thousands out of pocket for Cobra.

Hope you're doing alright!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 04:49:05 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 20, 2020, 04:33:40 PM

How awful.  No job, no insurance, should they get sick...unless they want to pay thousands out of pocket for Cobra.

Hopefully they stay true to their word of not charging for people who get the virus.  The second state testing center they are opening up by me isn't charging anything, you just need a state drivers license.  Granted, that's just to get a test.  Hopefully that rolls over to treatment if needed too.  This is only going to get worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 20, 2020, 04:53:56 PM

Man, no job and no insurance is scary as fuck. My heart goes out to all that get affected.

Over here that would be illegal. If you want to lay off someone for economical reasons, you'd need permission, and to get that I think a company needs prove their situation is dire and that there was no way to prevent it. And no insurance is thankfully not a thing over here.

I really hope that at the very least this outbreak will lead to societies examining what we can do better in the future, to prevent many lives being potentially ruined in like the course of a couple of weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2020, 04:58:26 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 20, 2020, 04:53:56 PM

I really hope that at the very least this outbreak will lead to societies examining what we can do better in the future, to prevent many lives being potentially ruined in like the course of a couple of weeks.

There's a lot to be learned from this, all around. 

In other news, https://www.foxnews.com/politics/a-person-in-pences-office-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-vps-office-announces (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/a-person-in-pences-office-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-vps-office-announces)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 20, 2020, 05:23:27 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 20, 2020, 04:53:56 PM

I really hope that at the very least this outbreak will lead to societies examining what we can do better in the future, to prevent many lives being potentially ruined in like the course of a couple of weeks.

I yearn for a society that doesn't run around in panic like their heads were cut off when something like this happen.  Just have a good rationale and a good game plan on how to approach issues and epidemic like this that doesn't ruin people's livelihood to the extend that it changes lives for the worst rather than for the better.

I will still yearn though since I don't see this being a huge reality in our lifetime.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 20, 2020, 05:49:59 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on March 20, 2020, 04:53:56 PM

I really hope that at the very least this outbreak will lead to societies examining what we can do better in the future, to prevent many lives being potentially ruined in like the course of a couple of weeks.

What we can do better in the future is stop screwing up the planet.

This virus was caused by a combination of aggressive urbanization, overpopulation, pollution and lack of hygiene, all things that contributed for stuff that was always isolated in the nature to come into contact with humans. So the simple yet impossible answer is "How about maybe we don't pour concrete upon each and every single tree we can find?"

New epidemics often arise in Asia and Africa because it's there that the combination of fast urbanization mixed with overpopulation and poor hygenic standards allows for these kind of viruses to mutate and transmit to humans. And if one day a pandemic comes out of Brazil, you can bet it's because of the deforestation of Amazonia. And if one day a bacteria that was tucked away in the ice is released again, you can thank the global warming for that.

This is quite simplicistic and stripped down, of course, but the virus didn't come out of nowhere. It was a matter of time until something like this happened. Or better - something even worse than what had already happened, see the SARS for example, came along. And there's no easy and immediate plan of action for that, we can only hope to be better prepared next time, and that means making sure the sanitary system of our nations is considered the absolute and utmost priority in every politician's agenda.

Also how easily all of this spread is the definitive proof that, for better or worse, we're all connected, and that we need to think globally when it comes to the topics of utmost importance. One or two centuries ago, this would have stayed in China, or wouldn't have even happened in the first place. This time around it originated in December in China, exactly one month ago, 20th of February, was first spotted in Italy, and look where we are right now, all locked inside our homes with everything being cancelled, when was the last time an international major sporting event was postponed? I bet when Adolf Hitler was still alive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 06:39:31 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 20, 2020, 04:33:40 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 20, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Our work has been deemed a Critical Infrastructure Industry.  We do not shut down.

Need workers, I've been indefinitely laid off without pay. Just filled out my first ever unemployment claim.

My wifes stepdad was just laid off.  This family of auto dealership owners laid off everyone in all departments.  And cancelled their insurance...but offered them Cobra.

How awful.  No job, no insurance, should they get sick...unless they want to pay thousands out of pocket for Cobra.

Hope you're doing alright!

My company is covering insurance as long as we don't formally quit, which is very cool of them. Just started filling out apps at grocery stores, theres a shit ton of jobs out there. And someone of my skill level in food should fit in easily in the meat, seafood, produce or deli dept. And it's all hopefully for a few months till this shit blows over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 20, 2020, 08:41:00 PM

Matt Smith has a message for you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znpEUFWYS-I)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 21, 2020, 04:42:56 AM

hahaha. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 21, 2020, 10:11:50 AM

Why no one should thing the US response is an over-reaction.  If anything, imo more needs to be done (that goes for Canada too).  Grey is Italy; red(ish) is USA as of Thursday.  Italy reported over 6000 mores cases, and over 600 more deaths yesterday.

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/DNqnhgI-Hmb1d3fm7wyT7VhiIBg=/0x0:1800x3202/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1800x3202):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19821442/italy_us_gap_10.jpg)

"The frightening chart above compares the US’s reactions to Italy’s. It shows confirmed case numbers in Italy and in the US, starting on the day when each country passed 100 confirmed cases. It shows the points at which Italy took various precautionary measures. To break away from Italy’s trajectory, we need to take measures that are stronger than the ones it took, or take measures sooner on the trajectory than it did."

“You are always behind where you think you are”

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 21, 2020, 10:22:52 AM

While I agree that we should be looking at Italy (and other countries) to get a sense of where this is going and take it more seriously, I'm not sure we can use number of confirmed cases and contrast it with other countries - at least using the US.  For one, we are FAR behind in testing and as more testing is done in the coming days, more positives are going to emerge now which skews the trajectory path in and of itself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 21, 2020, 10:27:59 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 21, 2020, 10:22:52 AM

While I agree that we should be looking at Italy (and other countries) to get a sense of where this is going and take it more seriously, I'm not sure we can use number of confirmed cases and contrast it with other countries - at least using the US.  For one, we are FAR behind in testing and as more testing is done in the coming days, more positives are going to emerge now which skews the trajectory path in and of itself.

And NY wants to slow down testing for only those where a positive results will change the treatment. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 21, 2020, 10:37:32 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 21, 2020, 10:22:52 AM

While I agree that we should be looking at Italy (and other countries) to get a sense of where this is going and take it more seriously, I'm not sure we can use number of confirmed cases and contrast it with other countries - at least using the US.  For one, we are FAR behind in testing and as more testing is done in the coming days, more positives are going to emerge now which skews the trajectory path in and of itself.

I understand Italy was pretty lax on testing as well.  Even if what you say is true, the numbers are just going to skyrocket even more.  Higher numbers don't change the last/bolded statement made (by Fauci).

"Keep in mind that the virus has a two-to-ten-day incubation period. In the past week or so, each of <case> was exposed to the virus. Then they got sick. Then they got sick enough to seek  medical attention, which can take a few more days. Then they got a test. Then the test took a day or more to return positive results (some people are reporting longer waits than that for results, while some newly designed tests might be able to get results faster).

Each of those positive tests, then, reflects an infection up to two weeks ago."

So, of the 2600+ cases reported in the US today, many may have been contracted as far back as the first week of March. 

DTF'rs in New York.  Seriously, stay inside except for essential reasons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 21, 2020, 10:39:54 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 21, 2020, 10:27:59 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 21, 2020, 10:22:52 AM

While I agree that we should be looking at Italy (and other countries) to get a sense of where this is going and take it more seriously, I'm not sure we can use number of confirmed cases and contrast it with other countries - at least using the US.  For one, we are FAR behind in testing and as more testing is done in the coming days, more positives are going to emerge now which skews the trajectory path in and of itself.

And NY wants to slow down testing for only those where a positive results will change the treatment. 

Same with LA County.  They don't have enough kits.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 21, 2020, 10:40:01 AM

I realize that it makes us likely FAR worse than where Italy was at - I did not know they lagged in testing too.  The small part of my brain dedicated to math, statistics, and graph reading was just saying.   ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 21, 2020, 10:45:53 AM

Germany counted upwards of 21k infections as of today, with my home state coming in at number three. Total lockdowns are being discussed, partial ones have been implemented already. Fairly large exponential growth in numbers too as of now. I'm concerned.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 21, 2020, 11:51:16 AM

Experts not named Trump were advising that our curve would spike quite a bit more sharply than other nations as we rolled out greater testing, but also predicted that it'd level out more quickly for a variety of reasons. This was to be expected. The reality is that there are a lot of differences between the US and Italy, and a curve like this is really pretty superficial.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 21, 2020, 11:58:20 AM

In different news, curbside grocery pickup is a joke. I've never seen more than a third of all of the reserved pickup spots used. Ever. I've never seen more than 3 cars waiting. Yet there aren't any available slots for a week out. This tells me that they don't know WTF they're doing. Frankly, grocery stores are really fucking up their responses to this. And here's an idea. Maybe make those curbside slots available for the people who are at greater risk, since they're already concentrating the number of shoppers in the stores by restricting their damned hours.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 21, 2020, 12:07:48 PM

A friend of ours lost a dear friend to the virus yesterday. I'll spare you the details but suffice to say it was pretty gruesome the way he died and since he was quarantined, his last contact with family was via teleconference.

Everyone please stay safe and encourage people to take this seriously !

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 21, 2020, 12:16:54 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 21, 2020, 11:58:20 AM

In different news, curbside grocery pickup is a joke.

Our favored grocery store has had curbside pickup for a while now, and while we've never used it, everyone we've talked to that has loves it. It is something that requires a lot of planning and coordination; it isn't something a store can roll out over the weekend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 21, 2020, 12:17:58 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 21, 2020, 12:07:48 PM

A friend of ours lost a dear friend to the virus yesterday. I'll spare you the details but suffice to say it was pretty gruesome the way he died and since he was quarantined, his last contact with family was via teleconference.

Everyone please stay safe and encourage people to take this seriously !

Sorry to hear that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 21, 2020, 12:29:54 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 21, 2020, 12:16:54 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 21, 2020, 11:58:20 AM

In different news, curbside grocery pickup is a joke.

Our favored grocery store has had curbside pickup for a while now, and while we've never used it, everyone we've talked to that has loves it. It is something that requires a lot of planning and coordination; it isn't something a store can roll out over the weekend.

You ever seen all of the spots full? Ever even seen it busy? There are always one or two cars there, but never more in all of the stores down here. And yeah, I get it's halfway complicated, but it's not rocket science. Limit everybody to 15 items or less. Assign narrow pickup windows, use it or loose it. Just those two things would speed up throughput tremendously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 21, 2020, 12:33:40 PM

I've honestly never paid any attention to the logistics of it. I've just always gone about my normal grocery buying business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 21, 2020, 12:38:44 PM

I never did curbside pick up and not even sure it's offered at my local shop rite. 

Well, NJ is shutting down at 9pm tonight.  My local booze shop is packed.  I stocked up on Tito's the other day, but grabbed a bottle of wine and claws for tonight.  They said they may not be open tomorrow, haven't been notified if liquor stores are deemed essential.  Run by an indian family, they were all on hand today. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 21, 2020, 12:50:14 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 21, 2020, 10:11:50 AM

Why no one should thing the US response is an over-reaction.  If anything, imo more needs to be done (that goes for Canada too).  Grey is Italy; red(ish) is USA as of Thursday.  Italy reported over 6000 mores cases, and over 600 more deaths yesterday.

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/DNqnhgI-Hmb1d3fm7wyT7VhiIBg=/0x0:1800x3202/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1800x3202):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19821442/italy_us_gap_10.jpg)

"The frightening chart above compares the US’s reactions to Italy’s. It shows confirmed case numbers in Italy and in the US, starting on the day when each country passed 100 confirmed cases. It shows the points at which Italy took various precautionary measures. To break away from Italy’s trajectory, we need to take measures that are stronger than the ones it took, or take measures sooner on the trajectory than it did."

“You are always behind where you think you are”

"Some people are so far behind in the race that they actually believe they're leading." -Junior Soprano

I just pray that analogy doesn't apply to the powers-that-be here in the U.S.  :( :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 21, 2020, 12:57:11 PM

I caught Murphy's speech a little while ago, I believe he mentioned liquor stores would still be able to be open.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 21, 2020, 01:01:22 PM

I'm extremely frustrated that the Governor of WA did not issue a shut down.   Several exposures at work, and yet the work moves forward.  Construction work is literally like working in a petri dish.  So I finally made a very difficult decision and formally requested that my foreman put me on "standby" status.   My request was granted, but I feel like my unemployment benefits may still be in limbo.   If there was a shutdown, this would be a slam dunk.  But because my job did NOT shut down, and the work is moving forward, it may make my claim a bit iffy. 

They promise you that you will get the benefits, but the people making the promises are not the actual Employment Security Department. 

This whole thing is a mess.   The Governor just needs to issue a shut down. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 21, 2020, 01:34:32 PM

JD, I am surprised Inslee hasn't issued a shutdown. He isn't a forward thinker, and I would have imagined he would follow the lead of those other bastions of Liberalism CA and NY by now.

I have mixed feelings about it. Some are selfish... my job has limited exposure, and our workload is ultimately up to our clients and if they want us working on their homes. But if the lumberyard and Home Depot shut down, we can't do anything. But I am also fortunate enough that we can survive a short term shutdown unlike other businesses in other industries. My wife is already at home (being a teacher) so we don't have the worry about childcare so many families do. 

The WA ESD site has laid out the current info in a nice fashion if you haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 21, 2020, 01:39:04 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 21, 2020, 01:34:32 PM

JD, I am surprised Inslee hasn't issued a shutdown. He isn't a forward thinker, and I would have imagined he would follow the lead of those other bastions of Liberalism CA and NY by now.

I have mixed feelings about it. Some are selfish... my job has limited exposure, and our workload is ultimately up to our clients and if they want us working on their homes. But if the lumberyard and Home Depot shut down, we can't do anything. But I am also fortunate enough that we can survive a short term shutdown unlike other businesses in other industries. My wife is already at home (being a teacher) so we don't have the worry about childcare so many families do. 

The WA ESD site has laid out the current info in a nice fashion if you haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

That's the problem.  Because what the ESD says *isn't quite* the same thing as Inslee's promises in his speech.   According to ESD, if you're just staying home because of your personal fears but your job hasn't been shut down, you're not eligible.    However, I made a formal request to my employer to place me on "standby" status, which was approved...so that *might* be the thing that punches my ticket.   I'm operating in a grey area between two conflicting directions and it remains to be seen on which side the decision of ESD may fall on.    But all questions are mute if Inslee would just issue the order.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 21, 2020, 01:39:53 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on March 21, 2020, 12:57:11 PM

I caught Murphy's speech a little while ago, I believe he mentioned liquor stores would still be able to be open.

They are essential for NY living

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 21, 2020, 02:15:51 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 21, 2020, 01:39:53 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on March 21, 2020, 12:57:11 PM

I caught Murphy's speech a little while ago, I believe he mentioned liquor stores would still be able to be open.

They are essential for NY living

Yea, actually the list of what will be open is quite large for a shutdown  :lol but I'm not arguing.  I definitely want some of these things open.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 21, 2020, 04:21:24 PM

Up to 371 cases in Tennessee now. 2 have required hospitalization so far that we know of, and one of them died yesterday, the first coronavirus death for the state so far. We're officially work from home until the 31st, although at this point I don't think anyone's thinking we're going back into the office that early.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 21, 2020, 05:14:40 PM

I just saw a map of the cases in the province of Milan, town by town. Wow. Mine - which directly borders Milan - is one of the least infected, with basically 0 cases (I knew of 2). Unreal thinking how we're connected to Milan (two subway stops, directly bordering it...). Well, lucky me I guess, as long as I never go out and even if when I do for shopping the people around are of the same town, we might actually ride it out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on March 21, 2020, 05:20:06 PM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 21, 2020, 04:21:24 PM

Up to 371 cases in Tennessee now. 2 have required hospitalization so far that we know of, and one of them died yesterday, the first coronavirus death for the state so far. We're officially work from home until the 31st, although at this point I don't think anyone's thinking we're going back into the office that early.

Shadow Ninja, I thought I was the only member from Tennessee.  I work in the Tennessee Tower in Nashville and I start working from home this Monday thru the end of the month and maybe longer. 

My wife is not too happy with me staying home, but hopefully we will not kill each other. 

I really miss going to the YMCA.  Glad I bought a spin bike a year ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 21, 2020, 05:23:23 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 21, 2020, 01:39:53 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on March 21, 2020, 12:57:11 PM

I caught Murphy's speech a little while ago, I believe he mentioned liquor stores would still be able to be open.

They are essential for NY living

I heard a doctor from a hospital being interviewed on the radio and this came up oddly enough. She said in a situation like this, when hospital resources are already stretched thin, the last thing the hospital needs is hundreds of people coming in with alcohol withdrawals.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 21, 2020, 05:43:10 PM

Quote from: mike099 on March 21, 2020, 05:20:06 PM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 21, 2020, 04:21:24 PM

Up to 371 cases in Tennessee now. 2 have required hospitalization so far that we know of, and one of them died yesterday, the first coronavirus death for the state so far. We're officially work from home until the 31st, although at this point I don't think anyone's thinking we're going back into the office that early.

Shadow Ninja, I thought I was the only member from Tennessee.  I work in the Tennessee Tower in Nashville and I start working from home this Monday thru the end of the month and maybe longer. 

My wife is not too happy with me staying home, but hopefully we will not kill each other. 

I really miss going to the YMCA.  Glad I bought a spin bike a year ago.

A friend who works with me and his wife have started blaming annoying things the other one does on an invisible coworker, since they're both working from home now. Might be something to look into. :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 21, 2020, 06:48:51 PM

I had a meeting with my business partners this morning. We've decided to give a profit distribution to our employees so they may help their families out during the next month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Jamesman42 on March 21, 2020, 06:50:34 PM

Man, normally I'd just be anxious but having an almost 7-month-old is making me really anxious. I need to get myself in check.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 21, 2020, 07:00:08 PM

My wife uses curbside/grocery pickup at Walmart and absolutely loves it.  They do a fantastic job.  But they haven't been able to do it for the last week because there is NOTHING available in the store.  If the public would stop shopping for a week and let the stores restock, then resume normal shopping activities, you could take advantage of the pickup services.  But when the public empties the shelves in the stores on a daily basis, then they can't offer pickup services, since the store has zero stock.

Now that the actual Shelter in Place mandate has gone into effect, hopefully more people start staying home, instead of lining up in front of Sams Club and Costco at 7am daily. 

65 official cases in my county in Illinois, one of the collar/suburban counties to Chicago and Cook County.  This is spreading so damn fast.  It's definitely all around us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 21, 2020, 07:05:45 PM

(https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/90238511_10157485901103509_5486845717349662720_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=PpG_PQibhyAAX-mJOK_&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&oh=52a87d6c473a7e7c6ff2b59a74eae522&oe=5E9AF9B9)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 21, 2020, 07:06:38 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 21, 2020, 07:00:08 PM

Now that the actual Shelter in Place mandate has gone into effect, hopefully more people start staying home, instead of lining up in front of Sams Club and Costco at 7am daily. 

Why? Shelter in place doesn't apply to grocery shopping.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 21, 2020, 07:09:59 PM

Cuomo had some good stuff about shelter in place and how we're all using the words incorrectly. As far as I can tell, no one is actually issuing a shelter in place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 21, 2020, 07:23:01 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 21, 2020, 07:09:59 PM

Cuomo had some good stuff about shelter in place and how we're all using the words incorrectly. As far as I can tell, no one is actually issuing a shelter in place.

Just looked it up, and at the state level you might be technically correct.  However, the Bay Area definitely did.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 21, 2020, 07:23:33 PM

Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 21, 2020, 06:50:34 PM

Man, normally I'd just be anxious but having an almost 7-month-old is making me really anxious. I need to get myself in check.

The good news is that kids seem to get very minor cases of the virus, most with little to no symptoms. I don't think a single kid under 10 has died. But I know how you feel. I have 3 and another on the way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 21, 2020, 07:24:00 PM

Quote from: jammindude on March 21, 2020, 07:23:01 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 21, 2020, 07:09:59 PM

Cuomo had some good stuff about shelter in place and how we're all using the words incorrectly. As far as I can tell, no one is actually issuing a shelter in place.

Just looked it up, and at the state level you might be technically correct.  However, the Bay Area definitely did.

I honestly don't know. I just remember he specifically pointed out that the language is being used incorrectly. All I remember.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Jamesman42 on March 21, 2020, 07:25:25 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 21, 2020, 07:23:33 PM

Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 21, 2020, 06:50:34 PM

Man, normally I'd just be anxious but having an almost 7-month-old is making me really anxious. I need to get myself in check.

The good news is that kids seem to get very minor cases of the virus, most with little to no symptoms. I don't think a single kid under 10 has died. But I know how you feel. I have 3 and another on the way.

Maybe it will sound selfish, but I wouldn't want to leave her behind. I lost my father this year and that was rough, I don't want to lose my life before she gets to know me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 21, 2020, 07:29:53 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 21, 2020, 07:23:33 PM

Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 21, 2020, 06:50:34 PM

Man, normally I'd just be anxious but having an almost 7-month-old is making me really anxious. I need to get myself in check.

The good news is that kids seem to get very minor cases of the virus, most with little to no symptoms. I don't think a single kid under 10 has died. But I know how you feel. I have 3 and another on the way.

Not to alarm anyone, but when this first started popping up, one of the official reports I read said that newborns were not at risk (young enough to still be getting immunity from their mothers)...but *toddlers* are actually a high risk group.  The children who are in transition from their birth immunity into developing their own. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 21, 2020, 08:51:02 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 21, 2020, 07:24:00 PM

Quote from: jammindude on March 21, 2020, 07:23:01 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 21, 2020, 07:09:59 PM

Cuomo had some good stuff about shelter in place and how we're all using the words incorrectly. As far as I can tell, no one is actually issuing a shelter in place.

Just looked it up, and at the state level you might be technically correct.  However, the Bay Area definitely did.

I honestly don't know. I just remember he specifically pointed out that the language is being used incorrectly. All I remember.

Cuomo is against the “shelter-in-place” term, which is why he is calling his move “NY on PAUSE” or whatever he’s calling it. You are right though in the sense that is not really a shelter in place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on March 21, 2020, 09:18:09 PM

Our bread driver told us that a Minnesota shutdown is coming on Monday or Tuesday. I work at my family’s grocery store here in MN and it has just been absolutely nuts these past 8 days. It’s nonstop. We’ve tripled our daily sales, we’ve had two staff members leave for two weeks minimum (one had the nerve to tell my dad that us being open right now is “morally unethical” and couldn’t work. These 12 hour workdays are flying by so fast, I can’t really stop and think about anything. My hands are raw, cracked, and hurting from hand washing so much. It’s been insane. When the shutdown happens, it’s only going to get crazier.

There’s also one customer who two weeks ago came back from Japan. She proudly told us she goes every few months because she just loves it there. Monday when she came into shop, her eyes were bloodshot and she looked frail. She was coughing as well. We were so pissed that she came in. We took her basket when she was done and sanitized the shit out of it. Went and did a scrub down of all cooler handles. The fucking bitch came in again today and she’s got the full wardrobe on. Mask, gloves, a little apron. It’s absolutely ridiculous. STAY HOME!!!! Another lady came in today with a mask and said: “I’ve got the symptoms, but I know I don’t have it” STAY HOME!!!

Sorry, it’s been a long week

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 21, 2020, 10:44:06 PM

Hang in there bro, front line work is a bitch.

For your hands, try Corn Huskers Lotion, take it from someone who washes his hands way too much in his career already, the stuff is great.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 21, 2020, 10:51:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 21, 2020, 10:44:06 PM

Hang in there bro, front line work is a bitch.

For your hands, try Corn Huskers Lotion, take it from someone who washes his hands way too much in his career already, the stuff is great.

+1. That stuff is magic

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 22, 2020, 04:29:51 AM

Quote from: SystematicThought on March 21, 2020, 09:18:09 PM

Our bread driver told us that a Minnesota shutdown is coming on Monday or Tuesday. I work at my family’s grocery store here in MN and it has just been absolutely nuts these past 8 days. It’s nonstop. We’ve tripled our daily sales, we’ve had two staff members leave for two weeks minimum (one had the nerve to tell my dad that us being open right now is “morally unethical” and couldn’t work. These 12 hour workdays are flying by so fast, I can’t really stop and think about anything. My hands are raw, cracked, and hurting from hand washing so much. It’s been insane. When the shutdown happens, it’s only going to get crazier.

There’s also one customer who two weeks ago came back from Japan. She proudly told us she goes every few months because she just loves it there. Monday when she came into shop, her eyes were bloodshot and she looked frail. She was coughing as well. We were so pissed that she came in. We took her basket when she was done and sanitized the shit out of it. Went and did a scrub down of all cooler handles. The fucking bitch came in again today and she’s got the full wardrobe on. Mask, gloves, a little apron. It’s absolutely ridiculous. STAY HOME!!!! Another lady came in today with a mask and said: “I’ve got the symptoms, but I know I don’t have it” STAY HOME!!!

Sorry, it’s been a long week

Everyone was saying Friday was the day for the shutdown as well in Minnesota. I'm sure it will come sooner or later. Heck, there's not much left to shut down that won't be exempted from the shutdown anyway.

Stay safe at the store! When the shutdown does come, people are going to freak out and raid everything I'm sure despite the fact that grocery store can stay open.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 22, 2020, 05:55:35 AM

Things ramping up here in Australia.  I've been pretty casual about this whole thing but I guess the proof is there in the number of cases escalating.  Prime Minister enforcing closures of entertainment venues, clubs, indoor centres etc.  Basically all non essential services.  Going to be a long few months it seems.

This all seems to be people not following social distancing rules.  I haven't been following this thread, but has lockdown, isolation and social distancing on a whole seem to have helped in any areas?  Seems like the whole word just simply don't know how to combat this, or they simply can't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 06:22:20 AM

Quote from: wolfking on March 22, 2020, 05:55:35 AM

Things ramping up here in Australia.  I've been pretty casual about this whole thing but I guess the proof is there in the number of cases escalating.  Prime Minister enforcing closures of entertainment venues, clubs, indoor centres etc.  Basically all non essential services.  Going to be a long few months it seems.

This all seems to be people not following social distancing rules.  I haven't been following this thread, but has lockdown, isolation and social distancing on a whole seem to have helped in any areas?  Seems like the whole word just simply don't know how to combat this, or they simply can't.

Nobody will know how much these measures will work for at least 2 weeks post enacting them.
- incubation/infection period is 2-14 days, with a seemingly good rule of thumb 7-10 days seems to be the point where people are symptomatic.
- given limited testing (at least here in the west), it can take a couple of days to get tested... or get sick enough to warrant a test.
- in Canada, the turnaround time is currently 4 days for results.
- so, once a case has been confirmed, it can be over 2 weeks since the person contracted it - and been infecting others.
- with a transmission rate of somewhere between 2-3, it spreads rapidly.

Australia's cases are at 1286 at the moment... most experts suggest that confirmed cases are in the range of 10% of actual cases.

Seriously Kade ... stay home except for essential reasons.  If your rec centre isn't closed yet, start bitching that it should be.  Seriously.  I'm serious as a heart attack.

The two Italian members here (MirrorMask and Indiscipline) were warning us all to "lock the effff down!" what, a week ago?  10 days ago?  Now we are (or at least, should be).  The longer countries/regions take to enact measures, the higher the price/toll will be later.  It's only a matter of time before governments and the general public realize the path to a staggering number of deaths is right in front of us.  Daily case increases in affected areas is for the most part between 20%-30% - Australia had just around 20% today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 06:28:53 AM

Yup... precisely 10 days ago

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 12, 2020, 01:38:07 PM

We italians (generally speaking of course) passed in a week or so from "geez, I have to go on living, a drink at the pub won't do me harm, I'll be careful to sneeze in my arm and wash my hands profusely" to "the government sucks, they haven't closed all factories and offices yet".

It's hard to accept that a disaster is coming your way, but it has to happen. Someone in the other nations must take the unpopular decision to LOCK THE EFF DOWN EVERYWHERE RIGHT NOW.

It's like any other crisis. Let's say a team of scientists announce that there's a 65-70% chance that a major earthquake will hit San Francisco within three weeks. Who takes the responsibility to act, or not, on that? who accepts the risk to go down in history as the idiot who evacuated a metropolis for nothing, or the idiot who sat and did nothing while San Francisco was reduced to a pile of dust?

The virus stops if everybody, everywhere, at the same time locks themselves at home. Is it possible? no, of course not. But the very next best thing must be achieved soon, everywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 06:35:42 AM

Triple post, I know.  I posted this on FB so some of you may have seen it.  This is sobering.  It's a fairly long read, but an important and insightful one.  I hope those of you on the fence about this, or simply haven't been following closely, take the time to read it.  It's not sensationalizing.  It's not social media blowing this out of proportion.  It's the potential that we - we all - could be facing.  I don't share this with the hope of scaring the wits out of anyone... I hope it scares the wits *IN* to everyone.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 22, 2020, 06:48:49 AM

2 more cases confirmed in my county; both University of Illinois employees (one in his 30s, the other 50s), both have been in quarantine for a week and it's thought the risk of transmission from these two is very low. Fingers crossed.

EDIT: Chad, that is a fantastic link, thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bolsters on March 22, 2020, 06:56:50 AM

Quote from: wolfking on March 22, 2020, 05:55:35 AM

This all seems to be people not following social distancing rules.

Bondi beach was closed the other day because too many people were going there, and even after that, they kept going (https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/fmuu0x/good_on_you_sydneysmh/). Absolute fuckwits.

Also schools still haven't been closed here yet, which is baffling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 22, 2020, 09:00:50 AM

I am working at home now as of this past Thursday.

This is probably going to drive me crazy, being cooped up at home like this all day, every day, for God knows how long, but it is the best thing to do for now, and there are millions all over the world dealing with a lot more BS than I am right now.  I try to have perspective, like when Outlook doesn't work as well on my Mac at home as it does at the office, it is irritating, but then I think, if this is the worst thing I have to deal with right now, then suck it up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DTA on March 22, 2020, 10:05:21 AM

I'm stuck working in Philly. We're building a new hospital and even though all construction has been shut down in PA, we've been exempted to stay open and work around the clock to finish a few floors for potential patient overflow or something. The place is an absolute shithole and there's no easy access to the building so I have no idea what they're thinking. There's like 900 workers in the building at one time. The vibe is really weird and tense inside as nobody wants to be there with this thing going on...I'm hoping that common sense takes over and they shut us down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 10:36:46 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on March 22, 2020, 09:00:50 AM

I am working at home now as of this past Thursday.

This is probably going to drive me crazy, being cooped up at home like this all day, every day, for God knows how long, but it is the best thing to do for now, and there are millions all over the world dealing with a lot more BS than I am right now.  I try to have perspective, like when Outlook doesn't work as well on my Mac at home as it does at the office, it is irritating, but then I think, if this is the worst thing I have to deal with right now, then suck it up.

I saw your longer post.  Tough spot to be in pal, but the right thing to do.  Hope all the Shmev's are coping well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 22, 2020, 11:27:12 AM

https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2020/03/22/randall-stephenson-internet-working-from-home-coronavirus-rs-vpx.cnn (https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2020/03/22/randall-stephenson-internet-working-from-home-coronavirus-rs-vpx.cnn)

Yup, this is impacting my job and likely why I will have to be showing up for work throughout all this.  I'm expecting to get an official letter so I can travel for essential business during the lock down. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 22, 2020, 11:50:46 AM

We had a tee time scheduled for this afternoon. The sun is out, the weather is warm, very little wind. Ideal, really. I just called and cancelled...drat!  :sad:

I guess I'll go walk the dog for awhile.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 22, 2020, 11:53:03 AM

5500 confirmed new cases in Italy, which is about 1000 less than yesterday. We're getting close to the 2 week mark since the curfew measures started, let's hope the curve starts to flatten quickly now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 22, 2020, 12:16:38 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 10:36:46 AM

I saw your longer post.  Tough spot to be in pal, but the right thing to do.  Hope all the Shmev's are coping well.

Thanks!  It's tough being confined like this, but it is what it is.  It's unfathomable to think about what many are dealing with right now, often under worse conditions. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 22, 2020, 12:18:04 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on March 22, 2020, 12:16:38 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 10:36:46 AM

I saw your longer post.  Tough spot to be in pal, but the right thing to do.  Hope all the Shmev's are coping well.

Thanks!  It's tough being confined like this, but it is what it is.  It's unfathomable to think about what many are dealing with right now, often under worse conditions. :(

I also saw it and just want to give you my condolences. Try to stay optimistic, dude. :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 22, 2020, 12:24:35 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 22, 2020, 12:18:04 PM

I also saw it and just want to give you my condolences. Try to stay optimistic, dude. :hug:

Thanks!

Optimism is the key, but it is tough.  Deep down, I honestly feel that we are all going to get this at some point and just pray that everyone I know survives, but I am keeping that mostly to myself as I don't want to walk around being Mr. Negativity.  I am still acting like Mr. Carefree.  :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 22, 2020, 12:32:30 PM

I understand NY is testing a lot more than other states but the numbers are scary, we went from a 300 last Sunday to 22,000+ today. There was a live conference earlier that just annoyed me. Cuomo is a very smart person but I don’t think he’s handling this very well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 22, 2020, 12:51:18 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 22, 2020, 12:32:30 PM

I understand NY is testing a lot more than other states but the numbers are scary, we went from a 300 last Sunday to 22,000+ today. There was a live conference earlier that just annoyed me. Cuomo is a very smart person but I don’t think he’s handling this very well.

I haven't seen everything he's been saying, but when I've watched him, I thought he sounded smart about it all and honest.  While he's attacking the federal government a lot on this, I'm feeling he's got a point.  I've also been thinking the NJ governor has been handling things about as well as you can expect.  Like I'm not sure what else they can do here.  I started following him on twitter.

Quote

Governor Phil Murphy
@GovMurphy
UPDATE: We’ve received 590 new positive #COVID19 test results since yesterday, bringing our total to 1,914.

Sadly, we’re learned of 4 additional deaths, bringing our total to 20. These families are in our prayers.

2:10 PM · Mar 22, 2020

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 22, 2020, 01:28:53 PM

I don't live in NY but I've heard Cuomo speak a lot and he sounded straight-up presidential about it when he was holding pressers about it last week. That's what a leader should sound like imo.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 01:31:18 PM

Perhaps it belongs in the political thread of this, but Rand Paul was just confirmed as infected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 22, 2020, 01:34:54 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 01:31:18 PM

Perhaps it belongs in the political thread of this, but Rand Paul was just confirmed as infected.

I believe it's being discussed there too, actually. Ron Paul should feel ashamed, but he probably doesn't (he claimed the coronavirus is a hoax).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 01:48:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 22, 2020, 01:34:54 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 01:31:18 PM

Perhaps it belongs in the political thread of this, but Rand Paul was just confirmed as infected.

I believe it's being discussed there too, actually. Ron Paul should feel ashamed, but he probably doesn't (he claimed the coronavirus is a hoax).

I still have to get caught up in that thread. I’ve had a tab open with it for a couple of days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 22, 2020, 02:25:50 PM

Quote from: Podaar on March 22, 2020, 11:50:46 AM

We had a tee time scheduled for this afternoon. The sun is out, the weather is warm, very little wind. Ideal, really. I just called and cancelled...drat!  :sad:

I guess I'll go walk the dog for awhile.

My dog has been getting an insane number of walks since I've been home. He is oging to wonder what the hell is going on when everyone goes back to work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 22, 2020, 02:39:02 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 22, 2020, 06:22:20 AM

Quote from: wolfking on March 22, 2020, 05:55:35 AM

Things ramping up here in Australia.  I've been pretty casual about this whole thing but I guess the proof is there in the number of cases escalating.  Prime Minister enforcing closures of entertainment venues, clubs, indoor centres etc.  Basically all non essential services.  Going to be a long few months it seems.

This all seems to be people not following social distancing rules.  I haven't been following this thread, but has lockdown, isolation and social distancing on a whole seem to have helped in any areas?  Seems like the whole word just simply don't know how to combat this, or they simply can't.

Nobody will know how much these measures will work for at least 2 weeks post enacting them.
- incubation/infection period is 2-14 days, with a seemingly good rule of thumb 7-10 days seems to be the point where people are symptomatic.
- given limited testing (at least here in the west), it can take a couple of days to get tested... or get sick enough to warrant a test.
- in Canada, the turnaround time is currently 4 days for results.
- so, once a case has been confirmed, it can be over 2 weeks since the person contracted it - and been infecting others.
- with a transmission rate of somewhere between 2-3, it spreads rapidly.

Australia's cases are at 1286 at the moment... most experts suggest that confirmed cases are in the range of 10% of actual cases.

Seriously Kade ... stay home except for essential reasons.  If your rec centre isn't closed yet, start bitching that it should be.  Seriously.  I'm serious as a heart attack.

The two Italian members here (MirrorMask and Indiscipline) were warning us all to "lock the effff down!" what, a week ago?  10 days ago?  Now we are (or at least, should be).  The longer countries/regions take to enact measures, the higher the price/toll will be later.  It's only a matter of time before governments and the general public realize the path to a staggering number of deaths is right in front of us.  Daily case increases in affected areas is for the most part between 20%-30% - Australia had just around 20% today.

Prime Minister has enforced they will all close at midday today. (Monday)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 22, 2020, 02:42:22 PM

Quote from: Bolsters on March 22, 2020, 06:56:50 AM

Quote from: wolfking on March 22, 2020, 05:55:35 AM

This all seems to be people not following social distancing rules.

Bondi beach was closed the other day because too many people were going there, and even after that, they kept going (https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/fmuu0x/good_on_you_sydneysmh/). Absolute fuckwits.

Also schools still haven't been closed here yet, which is baffling.

I think the pressure will change that very soon.  Everything getting closed today at midday is going to be surreal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 22, 2020, 04:21:57 PM

Made the dumb decision to hit the hardware store, wanting a couple items to enable me to work on some home projects in anticipation of being hunkered down for a while. Apparently the rest of the town had the same idea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 22, 2020, 04:23:39 PM

Quote from: ReaperKK on March 22, 2020, 02:25:50 PM

Quote from: Podaar on March 22, 2020, 11:50:46 AM

We had a tee time scheduled for this afternoon. The sun is out, the weather is warm, very little wind. Ideal, really. I just called and cancelled...drat!  :sad:

I guess I'll go walk the dog for awhile.

My dog has been getting an insane number of walks since I've been home. He is oging to wonder what the hell is going on when everyone goes back to work.

The dogs all over are benefiting greatly from this.

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 22, 2020, 04:21:57 PM

Made the dumb decision to hit the hardware store, wanting a couple items to enable me to work on some home projects in anticipation of being hunkered down for a while. Apparently the rest of the town had the same idea.

Yeah, I had to hit Home Depot yesterday to get stuff for my move next week, just a shit show man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 22, 2020, 04:24:34 PM

Delaware's Governor has issued the "stay at home" order, so its only a matter of time before PA does. Hopefully it helps things

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 22, 2020, 04:27:10 PM

I will practice 'abstinence' regarding any comments to the following....

https://religionnews.com/2020/03/21/catholic-cardinal-burke-says-faithful-should-attend-mass-despite-coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR0pdCJpa_4Z4qMyl-g_jdMUvPD_K1nDhesx3d-k_8OPrEcZXcyl-I9DpWc

EDIT:  Expecting (hoping) Maryland will lockdown tomorrow.  Announcement at 11am.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 22, 2020, 04:32:52 PM

From Testament’s official Facebook page. Chuck Billy and his wife have both tested positive.

 :sad:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 22, 2020, 04:33:04 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 22, 2020, 04:23:39 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 22, 2020, 04:21:57 PM

Made the dumb decision to hit the hardware store, wanting a couple items to enable me to work on some home projects in anticipation of being hunkered down for a while. Apparently the rest of the town had the same idea.

Yeah, I had to hit Home Depot yesterday to get stuff for my move next week, just a shit show man.

Was thinking about heading there myself, but was thinking it's better to find an off time during the week.  Weekend afternoon would be crazy busy, but maybe 11:30am Monday will be quieter.  I need some cleaning supplies (swiffer, car interior (since my tire change in the mud incident), dishwasher detergent) are running low and you can't even get them on amazon now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 22, 2020, 04:38:34 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 22, 2020, 04:27:10 PM

I will practice 'abstinence' regarding any comments to the following....

https://religionnews.com/2020/03/21/catholic-cardinal-burke-says-faithful-should-attend-mass-despite-coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR0pdCJpa_4Z4qMyl-g_jdMUvPD_K1nDhesx3d-k_8OPrEcZXcyl-I9DpWc

Funny thing.  My pastor, last week, stated that going to church is optional and then, a few days later, the Diocese of Orange gave the ok to forgo any masses in all of the churches there until further notice.

https://www.rcbo.org/diocese-of-orange-masses-to-be-cancelled-but-doors-remain-open-for-individual-visitation/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: frogprog on March 22, 2020, 07:21:54 PM

My daughter was notified that one of her teachers tested positive. They haven't been in school since last Thursday, for what that's worth. Her classmate (with same teacher) was really sick last weekend with a high fever but is better now. A 72 year old man in our town just died from virus this morning. Despite me and the girls distancing ourselves for a week and our best efforts at heeding all advice and warnings we might be next in line......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 22, 2020, 08:00:33 PM

Quote from: jammindude on March 22, 2020, 04:32:52 PM

From Testament’s official Facebook page. Chuck Billy and his wife have both tested positive.

 :sad:

Just saw that. Testament, Exodus and Death Angel just got back from a European tour. Gary Holt has been pretty sick and thinks he may have it. I saw recently that Death Angel's drummer is in critical condition in the ICU. Seems that whole tour got walloped.

EDIT: Here's a link. The bands and crew all got hit hard.

https://metalinjection.net/news/death-angel-drummer-will-carroll-hospitalized-in-icu-needs-some-massive-positive-vibes

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 23, 2020, 01:58:48 AM

The effects of social distancing:

(https://thespinoff.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Covid-19-Transmission-graphic-01.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 23, 2020, 05:18:03 AM

Elderly people (over 65) and people with chronic diseases like diabetes or asthma have to self-isolate from March 26th to April 14th here in Moscow. That includes my mom, so I'm curious if she'll be on paid sick leave, PTO or won't be paid. The city will pay each person a whopping $50 so there's that :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 23, 2020, 05:27:25 AM

Yeah was a crazy day here.  Standing down all my casual staff was damn tough.

My view is now, if we can do what we need to do now, we'll get back to normal quicker.  We just have to do it.  I don't go out anyway so not a big deal, but everyone should just heed the call.  We have no recreation, gyms, restaurants anything so a hell of a lot has been taken out of our hands.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 23, 2020, 05:56:56 AM

We run an in-home dog sitting/daycare business. We've lost about $1000 this month in cancelled bookings and as of right now have nothing booked at all going forward (we normally have $1500-2000 booked for the coming month or two). Thankfully for us this is above and beyond fun money and not something we need to survive, but it still stings. I'd rather not have people coming and going from our house right now anyway, so I know it's for the best (though it's easy to hand thing off without actual contact). But I would have loved the extra money to throw into the stock market right now! Or to beef up our emergency fund or donate to some of our favorite charities that are hurting along with everyone else right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2020, 07:34:26 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 22, 2020, 01:28:53 PM

I don't live in NY but I've heard Cuomo speak a lot and he sounded straight-up presidential about it when he was holding pressers about it last week. That's what a leader should sound like imo.

Step back, bitch.  He's mine! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2020, 07:51:20 AM

So, I did go to the Home Depot yesterday - three times in fact, and twice the day before.   Business as usual.  Three of the five times were exchanges/returns, and I stood in line all three times.   There were a LOT of people out (and, anecdotally, a LOT of paint being sold).  Then you add all the walkers and joggers.  You can tell the people who are going stir-crazy; they look like ducks.  Momma duck, daddy duck, and three or four ducklings all walking behind in a vague semblance of order.   The walkers were so crowded I saw people stepping off the sidewalk to let others pass.   

I'll probably keep my own counsel having been burned in the Neal Peart thread, but I'll just make the observation that "not every job can be done from the house".   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 08:10:05 AM

Not to fear-monger or anything... but some, shall I say, perspective.  Looking to the worldometer tracker (in the OP).  Let's disregard China for a moment, because I'm not sure how anyone can believe their recent stats.  Supposedly in the last month they've only gone from 77k(ish) cases to 81k(ish).  If we normalize for them, then there are 276k reported/confirmed cases.  Here's the alarming part... the doubling period is only 5 days. 

276k / 2 = 138k
Normalize for China (in reverse - ie, when were we at 138k cases without China)... Worldometer puts the count at 215k cases (inclusive of China) on March 18th - just 5 days ago.  There could be a million worldwide cases before the end of the month... at best, within the first week of April.  And if the trend continues... 10M worldwide cases less than 3 weeks later.

Fuck me.  Actually, fuck us all.

Seriously ... everyone that can - STAY THE FUCK HOME except for truly essential reasons - and doing home reno's while under isolation ain't essential.  I'm sorry, but everyone rushing out to Walmart and Home Depot ... how is that any different than the spring breakers in Clearwater?

Those of you in densely populated areas, I feel for you.  I'm not a praying kinda guy, but I am "praying" in my own way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 23, 2020, 08:43:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 08:10:05 AM

Seriously ... everyone that can - STAY THE FUCK HOME except for truly essential reasons - and doing home reno's while under isolation ain't essential.  I'm sorry, but everyone rushing out to Walmart and Home Depot ... how is that any different than the spring breakers in Clearwater?

Wish I could. Can't. If I miss a single paycheck I am fucked. I have no choice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 08:45:25 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 23, 2020, 08:43:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 08:10:05 AM

Seriously ... everyone that can - STAY THE FUCK HOME except for truly essential reasons - and doing home reno's while under isolation ain't essential.  I'm sorry, but everyone rushing out to Walmart and Home Depot ... how is that any different than the spring breakers in Clearwater?

Wish I could. Can't. If I miss a single paycheck I am fucked. I have no choice.

That's completely fair... and for many like you, WORK is essential.  I'm totally cool with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 23, 2020, 08:56:02 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 08:10:05 AM

Seriously ... everyone that can - STAY THE FUCK HOME except for truly essential reasons - and doing home reno's while under isolation ain't essential.  I'm sorry, but everyone rushing out to Walmart and Home Depot ... how is that any different than the spring breakers in Clearwater?

Those of you in densely populated areas, I feel for you.  I'm not a praying kinda guy, but I am "praying" in my own way.

I work for a social service non-profit, so we are considered essential. Even though I don't interact directly with our clients, as long as the building is open I have to be here (I'm the operations/building manager). I got off the bus this morning because of how packed it was and ended up walking (about a 40 min walk).

But your statement points to my frustration with the "shutdown" here in NY. There are mixed messages being thrown out there by our leaders.

People are being told to stay at home, but at the same time they're being told it's ok to go to the park, take your kids to the playground, go play some basketball  or exercise as long as you keep your distance (Not happening in NY).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 23, 2020, 08:59:49 AM

In Italy we tried that for a while and eventually all parks are being closed down and sports activity is being suggested close to home. Just like strolling your dog which was an excuse to tour the entire town, it's been suggested to stay within 200 m from home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 23, 2020, 09:07:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 23, 2020, 08:59:49 AM

In Italy we tried that for a while and eventually all parks are being closed down and sports activity is being suggested close to home. Just like strolling your dog which was an excuse to tour the entire town, it's been suggested to stay within 200 m from home.

I can see for high population density areas, even going for a walk can be an issue. For those of us in a suburban area, I really hope it never comes to banning that. I could walk for 30 minutes and maybe pass 2 people in my neighborhood. I can see keeping kids off of playground equipment though. But we are going to be very dependent on getting out for walks to keep us and the kids from going crazy in the house.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 23, 2020, 09:14:28 AM

Ominous and intense are the words of the day at my hospital.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 23, 2020, 09:18:01 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 23, 2020, 09:07:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 23, 2020, 08:59:49 AM

In Italy we tried that for a while and eventually all parks are being closed down and sports activity is being suggested close to home. Just like strolling your dog which was an excuse to tour the entire town, it's been suggested to stay within 200 m from home.

I can see for high population density areas, even going for a walk can be an issue. For those of us in a suburban area, I really hope it never comes to banning that. I could walk for 30 minutes and maybe pass 2 people in my neighborhood. I can see keeping kids off of playground equipment though. But we are going to be very dependent on getting out for walks to keep us and the kids from going crazy in the house.

Yeah, but with the oversaturated hospitals, being paranoid becomes a necessity. You go out for a short run, you stumble, fall and break your ankle, then you gonna have to call the ambulance and you pile up on people needing more attention, and what if you're asintomatic and you infect someone? what if you sit on a bench where someone asintomatic sneezed an half hour ago and you touch it with your hands?

I agree, these are unrealistic scenarios, but you have to consider how many people are out there and how many irresponsable ones  there are. True, in 99% of the cases, going out alone for a short walk won't harm anyone. That 1% is covered by staying at home.

I'm not saying that everyone who takes a quiet solitary walk in the middle of nowhere should feel guilty, far from it. In your specific case I envy you, and I also think you're not doing anything wrong, it's good to be still outside from time to time. But I also see the necessity to become paranoid about it and urging everyone to stay always home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 23, 2020, 09:26:20 AM

Arguing that it's a bad idea to go for a walk because you'll stumble and trip and break your ankle is like arguing you shouldn't take the trash out because you may cut yourself on a piece of glass. At some point the paranoia becomes extreme and oppressive. In a suburban or especially rural community you should be fine talking a brief stroll around the block

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 09:32:11 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 23, 2020, 09:26:20 AM

At some point the paranoia becomes extreme and oppressive.

Ya think?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on March 23, 2020, 09:57:00 AM

Tom hanks is still alive. Can everybody calm down now?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 09:57:58 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 23, 2020, 09:18:01 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 23, 2020, 09:07:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 23, 2020, 08:59:49 AM

In Italy we tried that for a while and eventually all parks are being closed down and sports activity is being suggested close to home. Just like strolling your dog which was an excuse to tour the entire town, it's been suggested to stay within 200 m from home.

I can see for high population density areas, even going for a walk can be an issue. For those of us in a suburban area, I really hope it never comes to banning that. I could walk for 30 minutes and maybe pass 2 people in my neighborhood. I can see keeping kids off of playground equipment though. But we are going to be very dependent on getting out for walks to keep us and the kids from going crazy in the house.

Yeah, but with the oversaturated hospitals, being paranoid becomes a necessity.

This is a line outside a NY ER right now  (https://i.imgur.com/qOArerz.jpg)

People definitely need to be more cautious.  We broke a glass in our home yesterday and I was concerned about someone needing stitches if they got cut.  I'd probably get out my sewing bag vs. going to an ER or UC at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 23, 2020, 10:00:16 AM

My brother works in retail.  He is likely to be furloughed at the end of the week.

While my department at work is considered "essential" and is thus still reporting to the office, I developed a low grade fever this morning, so I went home to work from there.  Could be any number of things, and since I have diabetes, any number of things could occur.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2020, 10:02:31 AM

Damn, stay safe Hef.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2020, 10:18:47 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 08:45:25 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 23, 2020, 08:43:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 08:10:05 AM

Seriously ... everyone that can - STAY THE FUCK HOME except for truly essential reasons - and doing home reno's while under isolation ain't essential.  I'm sorry, but everyone rushing out to Walmart and Home Depot ... how is that any different than the spring breakers in Clearwater?

Wish I could. Can't. If I miss a single paycheck I am fucked. I have no choice.

That's completely fair... and for many like you, WORK is essential.  I'm totally cool with that.

Yea, work is essential.  Home improvements?  No not really.

Was told last night that I will be needed to go in.  I got email notification that I am essential.  However, the building won't let me work there normally so I've got to work from home and prep things and then go in for a few hours to bang it all out.  However, the work load is getting really high as our networks are getting maxed out from everyone online so my list of things to do in a short time on site are getting way too large.  Oh well.  I guess it's better than being furloughed or laid off.  I just hope someone recognizes the ONE (literally the only person on the east coast) person who has to leave their house to keep this company functioning. 

Also, since we are online advertising, it would seem, ads aren't "essential" but the government is using our platform for PSAs from the CDC.  So instead of ads, we are also doing this with our platform which is why it is "essential".  The CEO of our parent company was also on CNN stating our employees are going to work to keep the internet going.  Someone's got to do it...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2020, 10:43:29 AM

Let's not forget how we got here, though.  We got here because people weren't social distancing, and weren't being prudent with their interactions.  As Mr. "Tend Your Own Garden", I'm biased against those people that take the "well, they mean all THOSE people, not me!" stance - a very common stance, as it happens - but I don't think that the magic is JUST sequestration.  In fact, I worry that being sequestered might actually make us careless with the little things that would truly and provably lower our exposure odds. 

How many people know the survival rate on cardboard?  So what about all those packages that are still being sent?   If I was going to go to Appleby's, and sit in the dining room with an infected person, and instead we both get take out from the same place, does that really materially change my exposure odds?  I'm sure it does, but enough to put that cool diagram above into effect?  I don't know; do you? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 23, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

I believe it's 24 hours on cardboard.

If you get take out, transfer your take out to a plate with out touching it with your hands.  Or, open the container, wash your hands, transfer the food to a plate, throw out the container, wash your hands again, and microwave the food. I believe at least 30 seconds was the recommended time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on March 23, 2020, 10:50:12 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 23, 2020, 10:00:16 AM

My brother works in retail.  He is likely to be furloughed at the end of the week.

While my department at work is considered "essential" and is thus still reporting to the office, I developed a low grade fever this morning, so I went home to work from there.  Could be any number of things, and since I have diabetes, any number of things could occur.

Stay positive brother... Jessica and I will be praying for you.  When this is over, cigars and whiskey will come your way.  :metal  PM me anytime if you want to talk and I'll throw my number at you.

I've read a few articles about testing temp in the late afternoon instead of in the morning (because our temps fluctuate roughly a degree in either direction during the morning and mid afternoon hours) and that you should consider only 100+ a fever.  Control it as best you can with what you have.  Though I was joking in my earlier post about Baptist being a good hospital... it actually is a very good hospital and system.  Wake will handle things, and you and your family will be fine.

Being pragmatic for a moment, we honestly want to see the denominator (number of confirmed cases) go up and we should all be prepared for it because we're (the US) testing now.  Patient 0 allegedly being traced to mid November 2019 (can't remember where I read that) COVID19 has likely traveled the world already and the world may never actually know the true number of cases.  I honestly wish that someone in our Government would simply say that cases are going to surge over the next few weeks because we're testing now... and I can also wish that the press would communicate that fully instead of making an eye-catching headline and assuming that the entire article is read.  Hopefully and prayerfully, our medical systems will not be over-run too badly and those that need the critical care will receive it; that's where Social Distancing will work for us all I think.

The entire world has to pull together, and I believe we will.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM

Quote from: Lethean on March 23, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

I believe it's 24 hours on cardboard.

If you get take out, transfer your take out to a plate with out touching it with your hands.  Or, open the container, wash your hands, transfer the food to a plate, throw out the container, wash your hands again, and microwave the food. I believe at least 30 seconds was the recommended time.

Better yet, DON'T GET TAKEOUT! Learn to cook and you forego all the risk entirely and you let someone avoid going outside one less time. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 23, 2020, 10:55:11 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM

Quote from: Lethean on March 23, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

I believe it's 24 hours on cardboard.

If you get take out, transfer your take out to a plate with out touching it with your hands.  Or, open the container, wash your hands, transfer the food to a plate, throw out the container, wash your hands again, and microwave the food. I believe at least 30 seconds was the recommended time.

Better yet, DON'T GET TAKEOUT! Learn to cook and you forego all the risk entirely and you let someone avoid going outside one less time. :lol

I'm definitely cooking more, but sometimes you just want some chipotle bro.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 23, 2020, 11:02:22 AM

I'm not currently getting take out - I've been trying to lose holiday weight and have been cooking since before this started.  (And I think it's been a good move all around for me). But Stadler asked, and if I was getting take out, I'd definitely be following the above advice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 11:03:10 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 23, 2020, 10:18:47 AM

our employees are going to work to keep the internet going.  Someone's got to do it...

Not all heroes wear capes.

Quote from: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 09:32:11 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 23, 2020, 09:26:20 AM

At some point the paranoia becomes extreme and oppressive.

Ya think?

I'd like to think that most people would also consider 10M cases "extreme and oppressive".

Paranoia and being overtly/uber cautious to minimize/eliminate any health risk are two different things, imo.  The health system is getting crushed with COVID-19.  I'm not suggesting we all ball-up in a corner cowering in fear of 100% of life, but there's no need to make 5 trips to Home Depot in 2 days - sorry Bill, I gotta say that's an example of an unnecessary risk.

Going for a walk to get outside ... sure thing - so long as the 6 ft distances can be maintained.  But when 2M inside of NY City have that attitude ....  It's like voting.  1 person's action don't make a difference.  When a massive chunk of the population aggregates with the same behaviour, that's the problem. 

I say this knowing full well my rural environment avails me to situations and luxuries not everyone has.  At this point, any non-COVID health need is at risk of A) not getting attention, and B) opening up the possibility of continued spread of COVID-19

This is not 'eliminating risk' ... Vancouver over the weekend:

(https://www.citynews1130.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/sites/9/2020/03/20/Beach-social-distancing-metro-vancouver.jpg)

As Stads says... tend your own garden (and hope that everyone else does as well).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2020, 11:12:21 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM

Quote from: Lethean on March 23, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

I believe it's 24 hours on cardboard.

If you get take out, transfer your take out to a plate with out touching it with your hands.  Or, open the container, wash your hands, transfer the food to a plate, throw out the container, wash your hands again, and microwave the food. I believe at least 30 seconds was the recommended time.

Better yet, DON'T GET TAKEOUT! Learn to cook and you forego all the risk entirely and you let someone avoid going outside one less time. :lol

I've been on a roll with that lately.  Last night was chicken parm; fairly straightforward, but I might make something more fancy tonight, since it's snowing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 23, 2020, 11:26:16 AM

Boeing has now suspended operations. 20 employees have tested positive. People are saying this is the first time in history that Boeing has just suspended operations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 23, 2020, 11:28:06 AM

A few considerations from the trenches:

. I'm naturally in constant phone contact with my grandmother of 98 and last night I asked her: "Is this lockdown like WWII?" She answered: "Not at all. We helped each other staying together then, now you gotta help shutting in". Solidarity through solitude. Gotta be a first.

. First world health crisis in the social media era. Once we did what the doctors told us to do, now we know.

. During the first week of lockdown I forecast a big natality rate spike, after two weeks I'm guaranteeing a huge spike in divorces.


Meanwhile contagion rate and deaths 'round here are slightly decreasing. Maybe this nationwide quarantine is working.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 11:49:21 AM

I'll be interested to see where we are in about 2 weeks time.  By then, we SHOULD have much more meaningful data, both here in the U.S., and worldwide.  Right now, the biggest numbers are in China and Italy, and the numbers STILL aren't really big enough to tell us much of significance.  And both of those countries have somewhat unique situations.  I would say that, worldwide, we are still at the "we don't know much" stage. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 23, 2020, 12:03:49 PM

Quote from: vtgrad on March 23, 2020, 10:50:12 AM

Stay positive brother... Jessica and I will be praying for you.  When this is over, cigars and whiskey will come your way.  :metal 

Thanks pal, I appreciate it.  But believe you me, cigars and whiskey will help me through all of this lol

I'm not worried, mostly because there is nothing yet to worry about.  My wife is worried enough for the both of us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 23, 2020, 12:08:33 PM

I wonder how the states are going to handle ALL of the unemployment claims.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 12:15:51 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 11:49:21 AM

I would say that, worldwide, we are still at the "we don't know much" stage.

True. But we know enough to be extremely concerned, cautious, and diligent to all the warnings and guidance being given by health authorities.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 23, 2020, 12:18:35 PM

Hotels.com said it best. Just saw a new commercial with Captain Obvious isolating himself. The tagline is this:

Hotels.com
Just Stay Home

Can't argue with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 12:19:14 PM

Ontario in lockdown. Non essential businesses are to close by Wednesday. I fully expect the rest of the country to follow suit tomorrow or Wednesday.  We should be already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 12:28:11 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 12:15:51 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 11:49:21 AM

I would say that, worldwide, we are still at the "we don't know much" stage.

True. But we know enough to be extremely concerned, cautious, and diligent to all the warnings and guidance being given by health authorities.

And that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.  But in response:  cautious and diligent?  Absolutely.  Concerned?  Not really.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 12:29:33 PM

You’re not concerned?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 23, 2020, 12:39:55 PM

We should absolutely be concerned in general, because no healthcare system in the world seems capable of treating the amount of people that require intensive and longer term hospitalization (weeks). At this point that is not a maybe, that is proven fact based on many different locations with significant outbreaks. And in such a situation, where the healthcare is at capacity, a significant amount of people will die, corona or not. Car accident and someone is critical? Shit out of luck, the hospital is full. That will be the situation very quickly if people do not take this seriously enough.

And unfortunately, that was the case here. Full beaches, people playing sports in parks, crowded markets etc. The result? An increasing tense situation in our hospitals (one of our hospitals has patients in tents outside the building already) and the government had to announce stronger rules. We now will not have events or gatherings of people until the first of june. It is that dire.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 12:41:44 PM

@Jingle:  Not overly, no.  We don't know enough to be concerned, and health officials aren't saying anything that causes me to be concerned.  At least, not a about the virus--the behavior of many in reacting to the virus is a whole different story.  But, again, that does not excuse caution or diligence at all. 

Anyhow, back to my musings about the data, it will be interesting to see what this looks like once we begin approaching the typical numbers for other colds.  I saw a couple of sources saying that there are about 1 billion cases of colds every year in this country (although data is spotty due to lack of reporting).  When we get a true understanding and appreciation of the numbers from this particular one, we should be getting a handle on meaningful comparisons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 12:46:38 PM

^ gotchya.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 23, 2020, 12:56:40 PM

It doesn't use the language...but wouldn't this qualify as "shelter in place"? 

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/governor-kate-brown-tightens-social-distancing/283-b6f9bd09-22d6-48dd-a42f-8bc5596d9373?fbclid=IwAR1RrYIJ0kj_SucKsi6vnb-PLwvetC22o3IZzhOqiJ6EGtLzUN-MQAdXFVY

If you don't want to click, apparently the Governor of Oregon is issuing stricter guidelines (including fines and jail) if you don't stay home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 23, 2020, 01:05:45 PM

Quote from: jammindude on March 23, 2020, 12:56:40 PM

It doesn't use the language...but wouldn't this qualify as "shelter in place"? 

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/governor-kate-brown-tightens-social-distancing/283-b6f9bd09-22d6-48dd-a42f-8bc5596d9373?fbclid=IwAR1RrYIJ0kj_SucKsi6vnb-PLwvetC22o3IZzhOqiJ6EGtLzUN-MQAdXFVY

If you don't want to click, apparently the Governor of Oregon is issuing stricter guidelines (including fines and jail) if you don't stay home.

Some people seem to have an issue with the term "Shelter-in-place", so they are calling it different things (in this case, Stay-at-home order).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 23, 2020, 01:07:05 PM

Technically, shelter in place is used for like immediate deadly emergencies, like an active shooter. It's where you find whatever shelter is closest and barricade yourself in until given the all clear.

This, while quite similar, is still not that.

Not that it matters. What we call this shouldn't be too important, just what it is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 23, 2020, 01:17:23 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 12:41:44 PM

@Jingle:  Not overly, no.  We don't know enough to be concerned, and health officials aren't saying anything that causes me to be concerned.  At least, not a about the virus--the behavior of many in reacting to the virus is a whole different story.  But, again, that does not excuse caution or diligence at all. 

Anyhow, back to my musings about the data, it will be interesting to see what this looks like once we begin approaching the typical numbers for other colds.  I saw a couple of sources saying that there are about 1 billion cases of colds every year in this country (although data is spotty due to lack of reporting).  When we get a true understanding and appreciation of the numbers from this particular one, we should be getting a handle on meaningful comparisons.

The numbers will be under reported

from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

March 20 (GMT)
Italy: in the city of Bergamo, there were 108 more deaths in the first 15 days of March this year compared to 2019 (164 deaths in 2020 vs. 56 deaths in 2019) according to the mayor of the city Giorgio Gori. During this period, 31 deaths were attributed to the coronavirus (less than 30% of the additional deaths this year)

"There are significant numbers of people who have died but whose death hasn't been attributed to the coronavirus because they died at home or in a nursing home and so they weren't swabbed," said the mayor [source]

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 23, 2020, 01:25:43 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 23, 2020, 12:03:49 PM

Quote from: vtgrad on March 23, 2020, 10:50:12 AM

Stay positive brother... Jessica and I will be praying for you.  When this is over, cigars and whiskey will come your way.  :metal 

Thanks pal, I appreciate it.  But believe you me, cigars and whiskey will help me through all of this lol

I'm not worried, mostly because there is nothing yet to worry about.  My wife is worried enough for the both of us.

Lol I think everyone missed this Hef.

Vtgrad says, “whiskey and cigars on way when all is over.”
Hef says, “now is better, please and thx”.  :lol

All hands on deck!  Stogies and Mash for Hef, Stat!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 01:30:03 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 23, 2020, 01:17:23 PM

The numbers will be under reported

Oh, I know.  That's kinda my point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 23, 2020, 02:29:08 PM

Surprised to see people frowning on takeout. A lot of places are needing takeout revenue to survive. Moreover, by occasionally letting the Chinese or the Italians sling me food, I'm cutting way back on trips to by groceries. I'm well stocked right now, but I'll still indulge in something from the outer world from time to time, both to break up the monotony and to  help out places I don't want to see closed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2020, 02:38:21 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 23, 2020, 02:29:08 PM

Surprised to see people frowning on takeout. A lot of places are needing takeout revenue to survive. Moreover, by occasionally letting the Chinese or the Italians sling me food, I'm cutting way back on trips to by groceries. I'm well stocked right now, but I'll still indulge in something from the outer world from time to time, both to break up the monotony and to  help out places I don't want to see closed.

I'm on board with this.  Gonna try to order takeout or delivery once a week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 23, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 23, 2020, 10:00:16 AM

My brother works in retail.  He is likely to be furloughed at the end of the week.

While my department at work is considered "essential" and is thus still reporting to the office, I developed a low grade fever this morning, so I went home to work from there.  Could be any number of things, and since I have diabetes, any number of things could occur.

Damn Hef, feel better soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 23, 2020, 02:55:10 PM

Lockdown in the UK

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 23, 2020, 02:59:12 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 23, 2020, 02:29:08 PM

Surprised to see people frowning on takeout. A lot of places are needing takeout revenue to survive. Moreover, by occasionally letting the Chinese or the Italians sling me food, I'm cutting way back on trips to by groceries. I'm well stocked right now, but I'll still indulge in something from the outer world from time to time, both to break up the monotony and to  help out places I don't want to see closed.

I mean I just hate interacting with people in real life so my opinion on the matter shouldn't weigh heavily on anyone's minds  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 03:25:22 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 23, 2020, 02:29:08 PM

Surprised to see people frowning on takeout. A lot of places are needing takeout revenue to survive. Moreover, by occasionally letting the Chinese or the Italians sling me food, I'm cutting way back on trips to by groceries. I'm well stocked right now, but I'll still indulge in something from the outer world from time to time, both to break up the monotony and to  help out places I don't want to see closed.

I agree with you about wanting to help support them.  But at the same time, I understand and tend to side more with the view of there being more of a risk of getting food and packaging handled by others in a takeout setting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 23, 2020, 03:46:44 PM

That's why hand washing is the #1 preventative measure.  I'd rather get take out than go to the grocery store and eventually we all need to go unless ordering groceries for delivery.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 23, 2020, 04:06:15 PM

Missouri's Governor has allowed local municipalities to issue their own orders as to recognize that there are many rural parts of the state and not lump them in with the larger areas. That being said, my county just issued the 'stay-at-home' order.

Exclusions are:
  going to the doctor
  going to get groceries
  taking a walk (????) stay inside but go ahead and go out and walk. I get it....but it's kind of funny
  banks, gas stations, hardware stores, laundry mats, healthcare facilities remain open.....restaurants are allowed take out and delivery services.

I mean....I guess the announcement was a 'formality' since most people I know were really only going out for vital reasons anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 23, 2020, 04:28:38 PM

More and more reports are showing that a large chunk of the people hospitalised due to this virus are under their 50s, even some in their 20s or below. Though the chance is relatively small they will die, a part of younger patients do require intensive care and assisted breathing (some of them cannot breathe on their own for several weeks... that is a true nightmare).

Hell, of our first 100ish of intensive care patients last week, about half was under the 50 years old. So don't think only older people are affected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 23, 2020, 06:39:04 PM

Washington has now finally issued a 2 week "Stay At Home" order. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Has anyone gone to the grocery store and been told you cannot use your reusable bags anymore?  I'm hearing disposable bags are coming back because of fears around potential disease transmission.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2020, 06:48:29 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Has anyone gone to the grocery store and been told you cannot use your reusable bags anymore?  I'm hearing disposable bags are coming back because of fears around potential disease transmission.

Considering it's still all plastic here in NJ, no.  But kind of funny.  I guess, it's legit but then again if your bag has it, so do you so why are you there?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 23, 2020, 06:51:56 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Has anyone gone to the grocery store and been told you cannot use your reusable bags anymore?  I'm hearing disposable bags are coming back because of fears around potential disease transmission.

We've been told that we are not to bag if a customer is using their reusable bags. We will bag if we can use our plastic bags.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 07:07:59 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 23, 2020, 06:51:56 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Has anyone gone to the grocery store and been told you cannot use your reusable bags anymore?  I'm hearing disposable bags are coming back because of fears around potential disease transmission.

We've been told that we are not to bag if a customer is using their reusable bags. We will bag if we can use our plastic bags.

Is your store charging for plastic?

Cram - people can be asymptomatic and still positive for days before they get ill (if they do).  I read an article today that the cruise ships with the infected people on them still had "traces" of COVID-19 for 17 days after the rooms had been entered.  There are varying reports about how long the virus lives on surfaces.  Plastic bags most certainly could carry enough virus to sicken people touching bags.  IIRC, the check out clerk at my store last week was wearing gloves.  So essentially just transmitting germs from person to person via bag/products as the customers pass through.  (I did not see her change gloves between customers though this may have changed now.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 23, 2020, 07:10:06 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Has anyone gone to the grocery store and been told you cannot use your reusable bags anymore?  I'm hearing disposable bags are coming back because of fears around potential disease transmission.

I hadn’t give this it any thought but yes, store have been giving me plastic bags (the few times I’ve gone to the store)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 23, 2020, 07:18:28 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 07:07:59 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 23, 2020, 06:51:56 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Has anyone gone to the grocery store and been told you cannot use your reusable bags anymore?  I'm hearing disposable bags are coming back because of fears around potential disease transmission.

We've been told that we are not to bag if a customer is using their reusable bags. We will bag if we can use our plastic bags.

Is your store charging for plastic?

No. But in Boston, and other communities, plastic has been outlawed. In those stores, there's a charge for paper bags. Half to cover the cost, and half gets paid to the city. I would imagine it would be tough to tell a customer they have to bag their own. But I'm finding that in these times, customers would rather bag their own.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 23, 2020, 07:55:25 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 23, 2020, 03:25:22 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 23, 2020, 02:29:08 PM

Surprised to see people frowning on takeout. A lot of places are needing takeout revenue to survive. Moreover, by occasionally letting the Chinese or the Italians sling me food, I'm cutting way back on trips to by groceries. I'm well stocked right now, but I'll still indulge in something from the outer world from time to time, both to break up the monotony and to  help out places I don't want to see closed.

I agree with you about wanting to help support them.  But at the same time, I understand and tend to side more with the view of there being more of a risk of getting food and packaging handled by others in a takeout setting.

Food prepped by others is actually super-low risk:

https://www.seriouseats.com/2020/03/food-safety-and-coronavirus-a-comprehensive-guide.html

And it's easy enough to deal with the packaging.  For us it's certainly worth it to try to make sure our locally-owned placed keep their heads above water.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 23, 2020, 08:21:40 PM

My employer, a very large financial institution, has given a LOT of money directly to communities to help.  They have asked anyone not on the front line (branches) to work from home.  We are also getting paid sick leave for anyone sick, or that needs to help a sick family member.

Today I get a notice that anyone under 100k in salary is getting a $600 bonus in April to help with the situation.  Also, any employee on the “front line” will get extra pay.... not sure of those details but it might be an extra $200 a day up to $1000.

We are also deferring loan payments for businesses up to 90 days no questions asked, along with many other assistance programs.

I’m impressed.  I hope big businesses of all types do similar... we need it in theses trying times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 23, 2020, 08:25:01 PM

for the record millahh, I vote for whichever job puts you back in Jersey City :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on March 23, 2020, 08:25:47 PM

Yesterday was a strange day at work. New York Oceanic airspace was closed kind of. Flights were calling us with requests and stuff and ATC was not responding. Even when we called the controllers, we got no response.

I'm not quite sure what happened at the air traffic control center, but I heard two or three people got this virus or it was "suspected" they had it...so almost everyone left the building. Flights were allowed to enter the airspace but they were pretty much told they were on their own and flying in uncontrolled airspace.

The last time the airspace was closed was for this long was September 11 2001 for Fuck's Sake. Things are back to normal now but there are still barely any flights. I've only talked to 5 or 6 in 7 hours. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 23, 2020, 08:31:53 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on March 23, 2020, 08:25:01 PM

for the record millahh, I vote for whichever job puts you back in Jersey City :hat

Noted!  Once the apocalypse is over, leading candidates are looking like Cranbury (yuck!) or midtown Manhattan.  The latter at least facilitates happy hour!

Interviewing in this nonsense will be good fun!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 23, 2020, 08:35:19 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 23, 2020, 08:21:40 PM

My employer, a very large financial institution, has given a LOT of money directly to communities to help.  They have asked anyone not on the front line (branches) to work from home.  We are also getting paid sick leave for anyone sick, or that needs to help a sick family member.

Today I get a notice that anyone under 100k in salary is getting a $600 bonus in April to help with the situation.  Also, any employee on the “front line” will get extra pay.... not sure of those details but it might be an extra $200 a day up to $1000.

We are also deferring loan payments for businesses up to 90 days no questions asked, along with many other assistance programs.

I’m impressed.  I hope big businesses of all types do similar... we need it in theses trying times.

 :tup :tup :tup

This is awesome to hear. I'm grateful to private companies who show this kind of leadership and compassion for their employees.

I'm very proud to part of this trend, today we distributed an additional full month of salary to our employees so that they may have a cushion in the event that we are asked to stay at home by our State. My partners and I also had a teleconference meeting where we committed to maintaining salaries for the next three months regardless of our operational income. Even though we are a small company we are ever mindful of our crew and how we, together, are in this together.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 23, 2020, 08:55:59 PM

Quote from: millahh on March 23, 2020, 08:31:53 PM

Quote from: axeman90210 on March 23, 2020, 08:25:01 PM

for the record millahh, I vote for whichever job puts you back in Jersey City :hat

Noted!  Once the apocalypse is over, leading candidates are looking like Cranbury (yuck!) or midtown Manhattan.  The latter at least facilitates happy hour!

Interviewing in this nonsense will be good fun!

Definitely confused this for the chat thread, oops :lol :lol

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 23, 2020, 08:21:40 PM

My employer, a very large financial institution, has given a LOT of money directly to communities to help.  They have asked anyone not on the front line (branches) to work from home.  We are also getting paid sick leave for anyone sick, or that needs to help a sick family member.

Today I get a notice that anyone under 100k in salary is getting a $600 bonus in April to help with the situation.  Also, any employee on the “front line” will get extra pay.... not sure of those details but it might be an extra $200 a day up to $1000.

We are also deferring loan payments for businesses up to 90 days no questions asked, along with many other assistance programs.

I’m impressed.  I hope big businesses of all types do similar... we need it in theses trying times.

I work for a similar company, so far they've only announced a one time bonus. More money but also a lower salary threshold before you no longer qualify. I'd like to think they'd eventually be doing something similar regarding business loans, but I haven't seen any word about that yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 23, 2020, 09:01:20 PM

Quote from: jammindude on March 23, 2020, 06:39:04 PM

Washington has now finally issued a 2 week "Stay At Home" order. 

Surprised it took so long honestly. I am set with the wife and elder kid already at home, and we have our in-hone day care still in force for my younger. My job is the wild card. We aren't 'essential' but my boss might give the finger to Inslee and have us work anyway, presuming we have clients who want us in their homes haha! If not we can ride out the 2 week period without hardship. Extend that to 2 months I might have a different answer.

Have a kid in school and a teacher for a wife, I am curious if schools are going to open again or just wait till the new year in Sept.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 23, 2020, 09:53:43 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 23, 2020, 09:01:20 PM

Quote from: jammindude on March 23, 2020, 06:39:04 PM

Washington has now finally issued a 2 week "Stay At Home" order. 

Surprised it took so long honestly. I am set with the wife and elder kid already at home, and we have our in-hone day care still in force for my younger. My job is the wild card. We aren't 'essential' but my boss might give the finger to Inslee and have us work anyway, presuming we have clients who want us in their homes haha! If not we can ride out the 2 week period without hardship. Extend that to 2 months I might have a different answer.

Have a kid in school and a teacher for a wife, I am curious if schools are going to open again or just wait till the new year in Sept.

And after reading the details, I guess my job is still in a gray area.   Many union guys are arguing the language of what's written and it appears that construction is not affected, and therefore could move forward....which is pissing a lot of guys off.     Some are insisting that the *intent* is construction workers that are working on projects that are part of the "essential business" list.   But that's not what it says.   It actually lists construction as part of the essential work list.     

For the record, I am an electrician.   And I can see how linemen and maintenance workers are essential for keeping the power going in existing buildings.   But I fail to see how an unfinished building with hundreds of workers (all potential exposures....and keep in mind that *new* construction is often the dirtiest part of of the job) could be deemed "essential" to public need like hospitals and grocery stores. 

But as I said earlier, I requested a lay off, and I got one.  I am officially on "stand by" waiting to return to work.   And the contractors union and the electricians union signed a temporary emergency contract 4 days ago agreeing that no contractor would dispute any unemployment claims during this crisis.    So I should be OK to sit at home for awhile and ride this thing out.   I just wish the language wasn't so iffy.    It's pretty stupid if the people with the money were to insist the jobs move forward because of the language of the order. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 24, 2020, 04:55:22 AM

I was thinking that probably this is going down as the defining historical event of our era, at least of the beginning of the third millennium.

From time to time I wonder what is the most important / historical event that I've witnessed, the most important thing that will be taught in school decades from now.... was it the fall of the Berlin Wall? the end of the USSR? 9/11? (well, these things are taught already) surely this Covid19 pandemic is gonna be a landmark event in future history studies. We all have from school a very basic knowledge that there was a century ago this thing called "Spanish flu", future generations will definitively study this pandemic, see photos of desert towns, study the economic repercussions.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 05:11:25 AM

Jumping on some of the above discussion points...

Ontario grocers are also encouraging people to NOT bring their own bags.  Not really sure, as I can't recall the last time a cashier bagged groceries.  It might happen occasionally here in my small town, but in the larger urban cities.... never.  Also, Loblaw Company Ltd (which operates 22 different grocery/pharmacy chains across the country) announced hourly wage increases, and lump sum bonuses for those "front-line" workers.   :tup

So much unknown about how long this thing can last on surfaces, and the transmission rates/risk from it. ugh

@ MirrorMask... I agree wholeheartedly. I believe that we will at some point be referring to events and societal norms BC and AC - Before/After COVID.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 05:54:51 AM

Minnesota is holding off on a shelter-in-place order again. We all know it's going to happen. I wish they'd just do it and get it over with. We haven't been hit hard yet, so I get the reluctance to over react, but the sooner it starts, (hopefully) the sooner it can all end. Though the reality is that most retail that would close is already voluntarily closed. There are some office-type businesses that would shut down I'm sure, but I'm really not sure it's going to make much difference.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 06:08:42 AM

It's bizarre when gov'ts / leaders think they can wait until it's needed.  Once you realize you NEED it, you're already a few days if (not longer) late.  These fucking politicians need to be PROactive.  Then again, people also need to follow it.  Trudeau got pretty stern yesterday.

"Enough is enough.  Go home.  STAY home."

The list of 74 "essential" services (https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2020/03/list-of-essential-workplaces-2.html) that are exempt from the closure in Ontario.  In scanning the list, 95% of this makes sense, and a few of these are plausible to wfh -the organizations themselves, if not some of the major functions of the company.  But man, it's a big list.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 06:24:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 06:08:42 AM

It's bizarre when gov'ts / leaders think they can wait until it's needed.  Once you realize you NEED it, you're already a few days if (not longer) late.  These fucking politicians need to be PROactive.  Then again, people also need to follow it.  Trudeau got pretty stern yesterday.

"Enough is enough.  Go home.  STAY home."

The list of 74 "essential" services (https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2020/03/list-of-essential-workplaces-2.html) that are exempt from the closure in Ontario.  In scanning the list, 95% of this makes sense, and a few of these are plausible to wfh -the organizations themselves, if not some of the major functions of the company.  But man, it's a big list.

You think those who sold stock after hearing about this weeks ago give a shit? "Fuck you, got mine" should replace "e pluribus unum" here in the USA...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 06:52:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 06:08:42 AM

It's bizarre when gov'ts / leaders think they can wait until it's needed.  Once you realize you NEED it, you're already a few days if (not longer) late.  These fucking politicians need to be PROactive. 

I get being proactive, but at the same time I completely understand not wanting to shut down an entire state's economy because 0.004% of the people have a virus and about 10% of them are hospitalized, with only 1 death. I know it will get worse, and so does the governor. I don't envy the position these leaders are in. They have to balance the needs of millions of people to have an income, pay their bills, and live their lives, with the threat of a virus that can be bad, but even at it's worst around the world is only affecting a tiny fraction of the people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 06:59:21 AM

You’re right ... they have to make hard decisions. They can do it now, or do it later. Is here a single region of the world that has stemmed the tide without some manner of shut down.  What makes any Governor think they’ll be able to avoid it?

As Charlie sang, it’s only a matter of time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 07:04:14 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 06:59:21 AM

You’re right ... they have to make hard decisions. They can do it now, or do it later. Is here a single region of the world that has stemmed the tide without some manner of shut down.  What makes any Governor think they’ll be able to avoid it?

As Charlie sang, it’s only a matter of time.

I don't think the governors think they'll be able to avoid it. They're just trying to calibrate the right time to start to minimize the impact on everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 07:08:18 AM

IMO, the time is now. No infected region has been able to withstand the spread.

In other news ...

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/another-roundup-of-positive-updates-on-covid-outbreaks/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 24, 2020, 07:19:37 AM

Tokyo Summer Olympics postponed to 2021.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 24, 2020, 07:26:30 AM

I don't speak Italian, but if the translations are true, we need them here in NY.

https://twitter.com/protectheflames/status/1241403715036291072

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 24, 2020, 07:34:38 AM

That's true, I can confirm  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 24, 2020, 07:38:21 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 24, 2020, 07:26:30 AM

I don't speak Italian, but if the translations are true, we need them here in NY.

https://twitter.com/protectheflames/status/1241403715036291072

have them call Till Lindemann to expertly operate them damnit :D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 24, 2020, 07:40:54 AM

Lost in translation from the last one:

"Nobody can see you through the coffin's lid"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 24, 2020, 07:50:05 AM

I just found out yesterday that two families in my neighborhood probably have the cornonavirus (no official test, but also not the flu).  I have been letting my kids go out and play with their friends, but I think I'm going to stop that now.

Fortuanately both families appear to be doing OK.  And one is on the mend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 07:57:15 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 24, 2020, 07:50:05 AM

I just found out yesterday that two families in my neighborhood probably have the cornonavirus (no official test, but also not the flu).  I have been letting my kids go out and play with their friends, but I think I'm going to stop that now.

Fortuanately both families appear to be doing OK.  And one is on the mend.

Brother... keep the kids in isolation.

Also, Italian Police don't fuck around if you break quarantine.  Warning... mildly disturbing.

https://twitter.com/Hafeeeem/status/1242097992443875328?fbclid=IwAR3eDpG9_1PtB0owmO4m7lMyrOGS3zV-BMTZW3kQy31ZhLBpwdcT7FFM0ZA

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 24, 2020, 07:58:54 AM

It ain't Italy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 08:01:21 AM

Wonder where it is then.  Could be some random thing from the past I suppose, just re-hashed for these times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2020, 08:06:54 AM

I received an official letter from Homeland Security stating I am allowed to be on the roads for work during this time.  From the cyber and infrastructure division.  I feel important.   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 24, 2020, 08:07:59 AM

Truck driver Cram?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 08:09:10 AM

I thought this was a great idea.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/beverly-asks-residents-to-limit-grocery-store-trips/ar-BB11Dl7C?ocid=hplocalnews

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2020, 08:11:56 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 24, 2020, 08:07:59 AM

Truck driver Cram?

IT infrastructure

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 09:05:51 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 08:09:10 AM

I thought this was a great idea.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/beverly-asks-residents-to-limit-grocery-store-trips/ar-BB11Dl7C?ocid=hplocalnews

It's something for sure.  One flaw I see in that is that (presumably) the Wards are by geography?  So the stores on the other end of town from a given Ward are likely to be emptier on those days than those in that ward.

How about this as another possible idea - you shop on the odd/even days that match your address.  I live at 1715 Kingston.  So, I shop on odd-numbered days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 09:08:42 AM

Being a single dude in a pandemic rules. I've started eating the least desirable food in my pantry and kitchen so the good stuff is what's left at the end, so I shouldn't have to go grocery shopping for 2 months. Hopefully toilet paper is not a rare commodity when I emerge from hibernation. :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2020, 09:11:42 AM

Anyone else notice Amazon isn't shipping anything essential for another month?  I am starting to run low on my vitamins I've been taking to support my diet and cherry tart pills to help my uric acid levels so I ordered more on Amazon, no problem will be here by end of the week, but I also added an audio optical cable for my TV and that won't come for another month.  I'm not complaining, kind of makes sense but also interesting to see the adaptation. 

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 09:08:42 AM

Being a single dude in a pandemic rules. I've started eating the least desirable food in my pantry and kitchen so the good stuff is what's left at the end, so I shouldn't have to go grocery shopping for 2 months. Hopefully toilet paper is not a rare commodity when I emerge from hibernation. :hat

Us single dudes do have it the best.  No kids to worry about, no one else that needs attention.  Just kind of a normal every day life for me really.  Also helps that I weened myself off of premade food and cooking every meal has been a norm for awhile that there's like really no adjustment at all besides the occasional time I need to go to the store and it's all awkward.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 09:19:55 AM

Yeah, last night I made some chicken and rice for the rest of the week even though I wasn't hungry. Life goes on as normal for this guy - for now. We're pretty lucky in the grand scheme of things.

A friend of mine in Utah went to the Dragonforce/VoA concert when they came through, and he was supposed to mail me a vinyl a weekend or so ago. And even though he doesn't appear to be sick, there's something that makes me hope he doesn't mail the vinyl for quite some more time, 'cause if I get any packages in the mail, I'm spraying it all down with Lysol and keeping it hidden somewhere for a couple weeks  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 24, 2020, 09:21:24 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 09:08:42 AM

Being a single dude in a pandemic rules. I've started eating the least desirable food in my pantry and kitchen so the good stuff is what's left at the end, so I shouldn't have to go grocery shopping for 2 months. Hopefully toilet paper is not a rare commodity when I emerge from hibernation. :hat

I can definitely relate.  This social distancing thing is right up my alley.  Hoping I can continue working from home beyond the 15 days.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 24, 2020, 09:22:04 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 24, 2020, 09:11:42 AM

Anyone else notice Amazon isn't shipping anything essential for another month?  I am starting to run low on my vitamins I've been taking to support my diet and cherry tart pills to help my uric acid levels so I ordered more on Amazon, no problem will be here by end of the week, but I also added an audio optical cable for my TV and that won't come for another month.  I'm not complaining, kind of makes sense but also interesting to see the adaptation. 

It's not so much that they aren't shipping, they aren't even stocking.  A few days ago, Amazon announced that for a period of three weeks, they would only be placing orders from their suppliers for "essentials" (six categories, the stuff you'd expect), for items to be stocked in their warehouses.  That's why pretty much everything outside of those categories is landing on a April 21 delivery date, that's when they will start restocking those other categories.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 24, 2020, 09:22:37 AM

While I appreciate the sentiment behind it, I need to get the fuck back to work. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 09:28:06 AM

Meanwhile, yesterday I went and literally sat in the garage in a lawnchair, then grabbed a Pearl Jam CD and went for a drive.  I love my wife and family, yes I do, but...   I went and literally sat in the garage in a lawnchair.  :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2020, 09:29:25 AM

They really need to legalize weed just for that type of situation   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 09:32:13 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 09:05:51 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 08:09:10 AM

I thought this was a great idea.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/beverly-asks-residents-to-limit-grocery-store-trips/ar-BB11Dl7C?ocid=hplocalnews

It's something for sure.  One flaw I see in that is that (presumably) the Wards are by geography?  So the stores on the other end of town from a given Ward are likely to be emptier on those days than those in that ward.

Not sure. Beverly is nowhere near me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 09:37:04 AM

I'm sure your wife is thankful for that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 09:40:13 AM

Hah! No need to worry about that!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 24, 2020, 09:42:25 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2020, 09:05:51 AM

How about this as another possible idea - you shop on the odd/even days that match your address.  I live at 1715 Kingston.  So, I shop on odd-numbered days.

That's how gas rationing worked back in the 70s. I believe it was odd or even license plat numbers. Personally, I'd just like to see them expand their hours. If some of us could shop at 0100 it'd be a lot less crowded during the day. Even Walmart is closing at 2000.

Also, I hit Central Market last night 15 minute before close, and despite having 2 entrances and 4 exits, they funneled everybody through the same damn entrance, around the store, and exit. They're really not helping.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 09:46:14 AM

This is just my opinion.

I don't think closing early is to do extra cleaning. Personally, I feel it's about limiting exposure to asset loss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on March 24, 2020, 10:06:53 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 09:28:06 AM

Meanwhile, yesterday I went and literally sat in the garage in a lawnchair, then grabbed a Pearl Jam CD and went for a drive.  I love my wife and family, yes I do, but...   I went and literally sat in the garage in a lawnchair.  :) :) :)

There's an old guy in my neighborhood that has a recliner in his garage that he just sits in throughout the afternoon.  Not even a TV or a stereo, he just sits in his recliner in the garage with the door open.  Wears suspenders with his shorts and socks with his sandals in the summer time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 24, 2020, 10:12:31 AM

Talked with my mom and convinced her to take the self-quarantine measures ordered by our Mayor, thankfully the city will address it as paid sick leave for almost three weeks. My grandparents are pretty much safe anyway, they don't venture outside almost at all, which leaves my dad who I suppose is relatively safe since he drives his own car and his job doesn't require much interaction. Which leaves me but I have to use public transportation in order to get to work. At least I'm avoiding rush hours.

My granddad turns 77 on April 1st and I think this is the first year in the last decade or two we won't be able to visit him on his birthday. This might seem like a small thing, but man, does this suck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 24, 2020, 10:15:45 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 09:46:14 AM

This is just my opinion.

I don't think closing early is to do extra cleaning. Personally, I feel it's about limiting exposure to asset loss.

How would LP be any different now than a few weeks ago? You'd think it'd be easier to keep tabs on everything when the store is less congested.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 10:28:48 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2020, 10:15:45 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 09:46:14 AM

This is just my opinion.

I don't think closing early is to do extra cleaning. Personally, I feel it's about limiting exposure to asset loss.

How would LP be any different now than a few weeks ago? You'd think it'd be easier to keep tabs on everything when the store is less congested.

Yeah, I'm not sure. It's just my gut honest feeling. I'm thinking more along the lines of a robbery than someone lifting a bag of shrimp.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 10:32:54 AM

Quote from: romdrums on March 24, 2020, 10:06:53 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 09:28:06 AM

Meanwhile, yesterday I went and literally sat in the garage in a lawnchair, then grabbed a Pearl Jam CD and went for a drive.  I love my wife and family, yes I do, but...   I went and literally sat in the garage in a lawnchair.  :) :) :)

There's an old guy in my neighborhood that has a recliner in his garage that he just sits in throughout the afternoon.  Not even a TV or a stereo, he just sits in his recliner in the garage with the door open.  Wears suspenders with his shorts and socks with his sandals in the summer time.

Lawnchair/recliner, same difference. I didn't want to reveal too much so I changed one of the details.   :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 24, 2020, 11:09:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 10:28:48 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2020, 10:15:45 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 09:46:14 AM

This is just my opinion.

I don't think closing early is to do extra cleaning. Personally, I feel it's about limiting exposure to asset loss.

How would LP be any different now than a few weeks ago? You'd think it'd be easier to keep tabs on everything when the store is less congested.

Yeah, I'm not sure. It's just my gut honest feeling. I'm thinking more along the lines of a robbery than someone lifting a bag of shrimp.

Interesting. Down here it'd be the opposite. The more shoppers there are the greater the likelihood of getting plugged by a couple of soccer-moms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 24, 2020, 12:50:07 PM

Some of you may have seen posts like this on social media...accounts from individuals that have contracted this virus.  This is from the first person diagnosed in the county that I live in, a female.  I read another account that was just like this one, from a healthy, fit male and it was identical. 

As the days and weeks go on, I'm definitely understanding that this is not just "another flu" and am glad that my family is taking things seriously enough.  I have no desire to come down with this disease.  It's not something that you can just get over in a few days.  It is weeks of symptoms and weeks of isolation.

Quote

’d been vacillating on whether or not to make a social media post, but as I see pics of teenagers still partying on spring break or just hanging out with friends, I. AM. PISSED. And I am terrified. And I feel if I can convince even one parent to force their kids to practice strict social distancing, lives can be saved.

Some of you already know that on 3/17, I became a statistic as one of the first Lake County residents to be diagnosed Covid-19 positive. I received the official news by phone in my hospital room.

Let me first tell you this virus is an absolute monster. Anyone who thinks it feels like flu is sorely mistaken. Every day I have new symptoms on top of the old ones that just won’t go away. As a healthy, fit 45-yr-old, I can’t even imagine what this would been like if I was older or had a major underlying condition. After two weeks in, having phone conversations is still difficult for me as I just can’t find the air. Watching quarantine workout videos, I wonder if I’ll ever regain the lung capacity to workout again. I’ve read that lung and heart damage can be permanent. I pray that’s not the case for me.

I have had zero physical contact with my own family in 14 days and there seems to be no end in sight. Watching FB friends share their social distancing experiences is becoming increasingly depressing for me. I see house parties with cocktails, tiktok videos and strolls with families outside. Even just parents doing art projects with their kids makes me weepy.

And I will add that anyone who is growing weary of social distancing after one week needs to get over it. More than half of those hospitalized in NYC are under the age of 50. We need to listen to the scientific experts. Our complete moron of a POTUS is going to end up killing more people and adding more time to our economic recovery. There is no way this thing goes away in 14 days. It’s just not going to happen. As much as I’d love to see my kids back doing the things they love and eventually seeing family/friends, we cannot become complacent. I don’t want to catch this again (yes, having it does not guarantee immunity) and you don’t want to get this thing before treatments are available. IT IS HELL.

Many people have been texting/DM’ing me questions over the past week to wish me well and also to ask about my symptoms, so I’ll start at the beginning, but want to emphasize two symptoms I’ve read about that seem to be very consistent. 1. Loss of smell and taste. Apparently, many carriers experience this without having other symptoms. I noticed it around day #4. 2. A day of improved symptoms mid-illness. In nearly every personal account I’ve read, the person had a fever-free day with increased energy and reduced symptoms. This is usually the day before symptoms take a nosedive for the worst. So here it goes:

3/10
I was at the gym working out and mid-way through, my lungs started burning. The night before, I had accidentally poured too much eucalyptus oil into my humidifier and my lungs were irritated as I was falling asleep. Naturally, I assumed this was the cause of the burning sensation. I powered through my workout, but def. didn’t feel great. My instructor even came up to me after class and asked if I was ok because she noticed I wasn’t myself. As I was showering, nausea and fatigue started to set in. I had a busy day driving my daughter around and by 4pm, I called my husband and told him he needed to come home and drive our other daughter’s gymnastics carpool. I was miserable and had a 100.5 fever. We assumed it was the flu.

3/11
Went to Urgent Care for a flu swab. I wanted to get on Tamiflu as soon as possible. The rapid test and chest X-ray were negative, but the doctor still felt it was the flu and gave me Tamiflu. This was appox 2-3 days before we realized Covid-19 was really coming for us and how important it was to slow the spread. After all, our dear orange leader was telling us that cases would go down, not up. Urgent Care did not have Covid tests and even if they did, I wouldn’t qualify for one because I had no known exposure. At this point, I was a little short of breath but not coughing much.

3/12
I just felt crummy. Very nauseous, short of breath and fever ranging from 99.5-100.7. Not the huge spike fever I had been reading about nor the acute cough. I’m asthmatic so I used my inhalers and took Tylenol.

3/13
Still had all the symptoms, but then a terrible headache came on right above my eyes. It felt like sinus pain, but was so much more intense. I took some Advil and drank coffee. I realized I had no sense of smell or taste. Everything was dry…my eyes, my nose, my mouth. Water didn’t moisten my mouth. Lots of trouble sleeping at night from general discomfort and nausea.

3/14
Fever broke and I felt better overall. I did laundry, cooked dinner for the family and assumed I was on the mend. Symptoms were still present, but I felt my breathing was better.

3/15
Woke up and the shortness of breath was back. Fever also returned and I was back to only having the energy to go to the bathroom. The dry cough started picking up steam. I called IDPH and again was told that I didn’t qualify for a test, having no known exposure. This was the screening question holding up so many tests. How could I have a known exposure when no one was getting tested?!

3/16
Breathing is worse. My doctor sent me a for a second chest X-ray which was again negative. His note to me said if fever and breathing issues persist, I should go to the ER. I was going to hold off until the following day, but I had three angels, also known as my “nurse friends” in a group text urging to me to go straight to the ER while there were still hospital beds and PPE. It was 10pm, but I knew they were right.

Husband dropped me off and a screening question had been added at admissions. “Have you been to any large events or gatherings?” Yes, I had been to a fundraiser with several hundred people, many of whom travel for work. This answer satisfied the screening. I was whisked through to triage. After triage I was put in a makeshift waiting room with metal chairs. The nurse told me it would be about TWO HOURS before I would be seen. There was no one else in this room. I knew there was no way I could sit in a metal chair for two hours. I wanted to collapse on the floor. After about ½ hour in, my nurse friends told me I needed to demand a gurney. One friend called the hospital and spoke to the ER for me. I told the nurse that I was going to leave. My friends begged me to stick it out and wait. Eventually I was taken to a storage room with another metal chair. The room was vented out and was serving as the ER Covid room. They told me I was going to be tested for both flu and covid. The ER dr. also thankfully did a CT scan of my lungs, took bloodwork and started me on fluids. On the way to my CT scan, I passed at least a dozen unused gurneys. It was explained that they couldn’t let me lay in one because they hadn’t yet been briefed on how to decontaminate them.

The CT scan came back showing significant double viral pneumonia. The ER dr. was convinced I had Covid-19, and without waiting for results, had me taken by ambulance to a hospital with a dedicated Covid Unit. At this point it was 4am and I was alone and I was scared. The drive was absolutely brutal. Every bump exacerbated my nausea and I fought with everything I had not to vomit all over myself.

3/17
I was brought straight to a negative pressure room at the top floor of the hospital with an attached hazmat decontaminating room. It was SCARY!! The nurse immediately started intake and hooked up oxygen. I was not going to be allowed visitors. My lungs felt like I was breathing in ground glass. I was sweating like crazy the entire time. The infectious disease specialist and hospitalist came by a few hours later and explained my CT scan results. They said the issue with this virus is that patients have pneumonia, but can’t expel the mucous with a productive cough. Hence the dry cough and the “drowning.” And because it’s viral, antibiotics aren’t effective. The nurses would call me about ½ hour before coming in to see what I needed so they could consolidate trips in to save on PPE. Later that day, I got the call that I was confirmed Covid positive. Even though it had been suspected for days, to hear that news was surreal. How could I have it? I didn’t know anyone with it.

3/18
Breathing was no better. I would have some energy to text friends and watch the news, but then suddenly all of the energy would drain and I’d have to nap. This has been a constant throughout the ordeal. I developed another brutal headache. I couldn’t open my eyes so they gave me opioids. I hadn’t eaten in days from the nausea so they put me back on IV fluids. Doctors assure me I’m going to be ok and my oxygen levels are good. I was convinced they were sugar coating things because I was struggling to breathe.

Watched the news and heard the story of the first fatality in IL. I was absolutely panicked. Breathing was so difficult, I couldn’t have phone conversations and if I did have one, it used up my speaking bandwidth for the day.

3/19
I start having stomach cramps. I was discharged because they needed the room for other Covid patients and there was nothing they could give me that I couldn’t give myself at home. Inhalers, Zofran for nausea and Sudafed for headache. Symptoms were still rough. Lungs were burning and breathing in too deeply resulted in coughing fits.

3/20
I’m in strict isolation at home. Too sick to eat or shower. Cough is the worst it’s been. Stomach cramps persist.

3/21
My legs are killing me. Not sure if it’s from laying down too much. They ache so much I take tylenol and just pace around my room. Breathing still rough. In the evening fever comes back. My skin feels like it’s slathered in icy hot. I’m dizzy and sweats are back.

3/22
Wake up DRY. My eyes hurt from the dryness. Breathing seems a little better but I don’t get excited because I’ve been down that road before. Stomach cramps are really intense. I then have diarrhea, like the rotavirus kind. How is it possible to have new and worsening symptoms on day 13??? Still insane nausea.

3/23
Woke up with tight chest and cough. Better midway throughout the day. Struggling to find foods that I can get down, but sense of taste is coming back. I’ve lost 9 lbs and am basically a bag of bones. Arms have the icy hot feeling pretty intensely today. The question when I go to sleep tonight is what crazy-ass symptom will tomorrow bring?

So, it turns out there were several people at a fundraiser benefit I attended on 3/7 who also tested Covid positive. Many of the guests travel for work. IDPH believes this is where I contracted the virus through community spread.

I’ve been told I need to quarantine 7 days from when I’m no longer symptomatic. At this rate, I’ll be in my room…well forever. I MISS MY FAMILY. I miss being able to breathe easily. I am not having the same quarantine experience as the rest of you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 24, 2020, 01:01:11 PM

Pretty much in line with other accounts I have seen.

Unfortunately, the ones that need to read and understand that, (cough cough) the White House (cough cough), won't. Instead, I am supposed to let my Dad die for the Dow.

Ugh, I'm getting angry. Time to stop.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 24, 2020, 01:12:41 PM

Yesterday, The New England Journal of Medicine released "Fair Allocation of Scarce Medical Resources in the Time of Covid-19" to front line healthcare providers. It isn't a comforting read.  But this is what guides our doctors going forward. 

Quote

Treating people equally could be attempted by random selection, such as a lottery, or by a first-come, first-served allocation.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsb2005114?fbclid=IwAR1kA7VMtv-G6ZX1N-xl1yMpqS_bOGosIk9ySNbhCGcUWkj7UNUuL9J-2MQ

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 24, 2020, 02:11:39 PM

Well, she got up the energy to sneak in a nice little political rant there, so looks like she is on the mend.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 24, 2020, 02:19:32 PM

Does calling Trump a moron even qualify as a political rant at this point? Seems more like just making a factual observation. Rainy out today. Sports team isn't doing too good. Trump's an idiot.

I don't actually know enough about sports to know which teams can be counted on to be doing poorly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 24, 2020, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 24, 2020, 12:50:07 PM

Some of you may have seen posts like this on social media...accounts from individuals that have contracted this virus.  This is from the first person diagnosed in the county that I live in, a female.  I read another account that was just like this one, from a healthy, fit male and it was identical. 

As the days and weeks go on, I'm definitely understanding that this is not just "another flu" and am glad that my family is taking things seriously enough.  I have no desire to come down with this disease.  It's not something that you can just get over in a few days.  It is weeks of symptoms and weeks of isolation.

Quote

’d been vacillating on whether or not to make a social media post, but as I see pics of teenagers still partying on spring break or just hanging out with friends, I. AM. PISSED. And I am terrified. And I feel if I can convince even one parent to force their kids to practice strict social distancing, lives can be saved.

Some of you already know that on 3/17, I became a statistic as one of the first Lake County residents to be diagnosed Covid-19 positive. I received the official news by phone in my hospital room.

Let me first tell you this virus is an absolute monster. Anyone who thinks it feels like flu is sorely mistaken. Every day I have new symptoms on top of the old ones that just won’t go away. As a healthy, fit 45-yr-old, I can’t even imagine what this would been like if I was older or had a major underlying condition. After two weeks in, having phone conversations is still difficult for me as I just can’t find the air. Watching quarantine workout videos, I wonder if I’ll ever regain the lung capacity to workout again. I’ve read that lung and heart damage can be permanent. I pray that’s not the case for me.

I have had zero physical contact with my own family in 14 days and there seems to be no end in sight. Watching FB friends share their social distancing experiences is becoming increasingly depressing for me. I see house parties with cocktails, tiktok videos and strolls with families outside. Even just parents doing art projects with their kids makes me weepy.

And I will add that anyone who is growing weary of social distancing after one week needs to get over it. More than half of those hospitalized in NYC are under the age of 50. We need to listen to the scientific experts. Our complete moron of a POTUS is going to end up killing more people and adding more time to our economic recovery. There is no way this thing goes away in 14 days. It’s just not going to happen. As much as I’d love to see my kids back doing the things they love and eventually seeing family/friends, we cannot become complacent. I don’t want to catch this again (yes, having it does not guarantee immunity) and you don’t want to get this thing before treatments are available. IT IS HELL.

Many people have been texting/DM’ing me questions over the past week to wish me well and also to ask about my symptoms, so I’ll start at the beginning, but want to emphasize two symptoms I’ve read about that seem to be very consistent. 1. Loss of smell and taste. Apparently, many carriers experience this without having other symptoms. I noticed it around day #4. 2. A day of improved symptoms mid-illness. In nearly every personal account I’ve read, the person had a fever-free day with increased energy and reduced symptoms. This is usually the day before symptoms take a nosedive for the worst. So here it goes:

3/10
I was at the gym working out and mid-way through, my lungs started burning. The night before, I had accidentally poured too much eucalyptus oil into my humidifier and my lungs were irritated as I was falling asleep. Naturally, I assumed this was the cause of the burning sensation. I powered through my workout, but def. didn’t feel great. My instructor even came up to me after class and asked if I was ok because she noticed I wasn’t myself. As I was showering, nausea and fatigue started to set in. I had a busy day driving my daughter around and by 4pm, I called my husband and told him he needed to come home and drive our other daughter’s gymnastics carpool. I was miserable and had a 100.5 fever. We assumed it was the flu.

3/11
Went to Urgent Care for a flu swab. I wanted to get on Tamiflu as soon as possible. The rapid test and chest X-ray were negative, but the doctor still felt it was the flu and gave me Tamiflu. This was appox 2-3 days before we realized Covid-19 was really coming for us and how important it was to slow the spread. After all, our dear orange leader was telling us that cases would go down, not up. Urgent Care did not have Covid tests and even if they did, I wouldn’t qualify for one because I had no known exposure. At this point, I was a little short of breath but not coughing much.

3/12
I just felt crummy. Very nauseous, short of breath and fever ranging from 99.5-100.7. Not the huge spike fever I had been reading about nor the acute cough. I’m asthmatic so I used my inhalers and took Tylenol.

3/13
Still had all the symptoms, but then a terrible headache came on right above my eyes. It felt like sinus pain, but was so much more intense. I took some Advil and drank coffee. I realized I had no sense of smell or taste. Everything was dry…my eyes, my nose, my mouth. Water didn’t moisten my mouth. Lots of trouble sleeping at night from general discomfort and nausea.

3/14
Fever broke and I felt better overall. I did laundry, cooked dinner for the family and assumed I was on the mend. Symptoms were still present, but I felt my breathing was better.

3/15
Woke up and the shortness of breath was back. Fever also returned and I was back to only having the energy to go to the bathroom. The dry cough started picking up steam. I called IDPH and again was told that I didn’t qualify for a test, having no known exposure. This was the screening question holding up so many tests. How could I have a known exposure when no one was getting tested?!

3/16
Breathing is worse. My doctor sent me a for a second chest X-ray which was again negative. His note to me said if fever and breathing issues persist, I should go to the ER. I was going to hold off until the following day, but I had three angels, also known as my “nurse friends” in a group text urging to me to go straight to the ER while there were still hospital beds and PPE. It was 10pm, but I knew they were right.

Husband dropped me off and a screening question had been added at admissions. “Have you been to any large events or gatherings?” Yes, I had been to a fundraiser with several hundred people, many of whom travel for work. This answer satisfied the screening. I was whisked through to triage. After triage I was put in a makeshift waiting room with metal chairs. The nurse told me it would be about TWO HOURS before I would be seen. There was no one else in this room. I knew there was no way I could sit in a metal chair for two hours. I wanted to collapse on the floor. After about ½ hour in, my nurse friends told me I needed to demand a gurney. One friend called the hospital and spoke to the ER for me. I told the nurse that I was going to leave. My friends begged me to stick it out and wait. Eventually I was taken to a storage room with another metal chair. The room was vented out and was serving as the ER Covid room. They told me I was going to be tested for both flu and covid. The ER dr. also thankfully did a CT scan of my lungs, took bloodwork and started me on fluids. On the way to my CT scan, I passed at least a dozen unused gurneys. It was explained that they couldn’t let me lay in one because they hadn’t yet been briefed on how to decontaminate them.

The CT scan came back showing significant double viral pneumonia. The ER dr. was convinced I had Covid-19, and without waiting for results, had me taken by ambulance to a hospital with a dedicated Covid Unit. At this point it was 4am and I was alone and I was scared. The drive was absolutely brutal. Every bump exacerbated my nausea and I fought with everything I had not to vomit all over myself.

3/17
I was brought straight to a negative pressure room at the top floor of the hospital with an attached hazmat decontaminating room. It was SCARY!! The nurse immediately started intake and hooked up oxygen. I was not going to be allowed visitors. My lungs felt like I was breathing in ground glass. I was sweating like crazy the entire time. The infectious disease specialist and hospitalist came by a few hours later and explained my CT scan results. They said the issue with this virus is that patients have pneumonia, but can’t expel the mucous with a productive cough. Hence the dry cough and the “drowning.” And because it’s viral, antibiotics aren’t effective. The nurses would call me about ½ hour before coming in to see what I needed so they could consolidate trips in to save on PPE. Later that day, I got the call that I was confirmed Covid positive. Even though it had been suspected for days, to hear that news was surreal. How could I have it? I didn’t know anyone with it.

3/18
Breathing was no better. I would have some energy to text friends and watch the news, but then suddenly all of the energy would drain and I’d have to nap. This has been a constant throughout the ordeal. I developed another brutal headache. I couldn’t open my eyes so they gave me opioids. I hadn’t eaten in days from the nausea so they put me back on IV fluids. Doctors assure me I’m going to be ok and my oxygen levels are good. I was convinced they were sugar coating things because I was struggling to breathe.

Watched the news and heard the story of the first fatality in IL. I was absolutely panicked. Breathing was so difficult, I couldn’t have phone conversations and if I did have one, it used up my speaking bandwidth for the day.

3/19
I start having stomach cramps. I was discharged because they needed the room for other Covid patients and there was nothing they could give me that I couldn’t give myself at home. Inhalers, Zofran for nausea and Sudafed for headache. Symptoms were still rough. Lungs were burning and breathing in too deeply resulted in coughing fits.

3/20
I’m in strict isolation at home. Too sick to eat or shower. Cough is the worst it’s been. Stomach cramps persist.

3/21
My legs are killing me. Not sure if it’s from laying down too much. They ache so much I take tylenol and just pace around my room. Breathing still rough. In the evening fever comes back. My skin feels like it’s slathered in icy hot. I’m dizzy and sweats are back.

3/22
Wake up DRY. My eyes hurt from the dryness. Breathing seems a little better but I don’t get excited because I’ve been down that road before. Stomach cramps are really intense. I then have diarrhea, like the rotavirus kind. How is it possible to have new and worsening symptoms on day 13??? Still insane nausea.

3/23
Woke up with tight chest and cough. Better midway throughout the day. Struggling to find foods that I can get down, but sense of taste is coming back. I’ve lost 9 lbs and am basically a bag of bones. Arms have the icy hot feeling pretty intensely today. The question when I go to sleep tonight is what crazy-ass symptom will tomorrow bring?

So, it turns out there were several people at a fundraiser benefit I attended on 3/7 who also tested Covid positive. Many of the guests travel for work. IDPH believes this is where I contracted the virus through community spread.

I’ve been told I need to quarantine 7 days from when I’m no longer symptomatic. At this rate, I’ll be in my room…well forever. I MISS MY FAMILY. I miss being able to breathe easily. I am not having the same quarantine experience as the rest of you.

Yeah, I know a couple of doctors personally that are working in the hospitals right now. And there are young and healthy people that cannot breathe on their own for several weeks. Keep in mind that there are always severe flu cases every season, but the fact that the corona virus brought some of the best healthcare systems of the world to their knees in a matter of weeks, with only a small fraction of the populations infected, should tell everybody this ain't another flu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 24, 2020, 02:21:34 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 24, 2020, 02:11:39 PM

Well, she got up the energy to sneak in a nice little political rant there, so looks like she is on the mend.  :tup

It could be her last breath but if that's the case then I am reminded Kahn's last breath - "For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 02:28:20 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 24, 2020, 12:50:07 PM

Quote

I am not having the same quarantine experience as the rest of you.

I know it's not funny in the absolute sense, but I read that and my first thought was Kate McKinnon in that SNL skit where she has a different experience with aliens than the other two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 24, 2020, 02:35:08 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 24, 2020, 02:21:34 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 24, 2020, 02:11:39 PM

Well, she got up the energy to sneak in a nice little political rant there, so looks like she is on the mend.  :tup

It could be her last breath but if that's the case then I am reminded Kahn's last breath - "For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee"

Kahn, for his part, was quoting a line from the book Moby Dick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 24, 2020, 02:36:58 PM

And Herman Melville, via Moby Dick, was quoting Led Zeppelin, so there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 02:38:12 PM

That account certainly sounds awful, but that's not a normal case, that's a bad case. A bad case of the flu feels like death too (and can lead to death for otherwise healthy people). Not necessarily saying this is no worse than the flu. It certainly likely is. Just pointing out that only a small minority have a case as bad as that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 03:16:16 PM

Also I've heard numerous reports that Tamiflu actually makes the virus effects worse, which she took.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:18:23 PM

I am officially tired of the term "social distancing."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 03:18:52 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on March 24, 2020, 02:36:58 PM

And Herman Melville, via Moby Dick, was quoting Led Zeppelin, so there.

 ??? :facepalm: :tup :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 03:20:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:18:23 PM

I am officially tired of the term "social distancing."

We're getting close to being able to play "Corona Virus Bingo!"   

- "Social distancing"
- "An abundance of caution"
- the ol' standby, "terrified"
- "the cure can't be worse than the cause"

I'm sure there'll be more before this is all over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 03:22:39 PM

Fortunately those terms are out there to help all people so maybe we can suck it up and be annoyed by words for a few more weeks while people are dying cause they can't breathe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 24, 2020, 03:22:52 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 03:20:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:18:23 PM

I am officially tired of the term "social distancing."

We're getting close to being able to play "Corona Virus Bingo!"   

- "Social distancing"
- "An abundance of caution"
- the ol' standby, "terrified"
- "the cure can't be worse than the cause"

I'm sure there'll be more before this is all over.

Shelter in place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 24, 2020, 03:24:02 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:22:39 PM

Fortunately those terms are out there to help all people so maybe we can suck it up and be annoyed by words for a few more weeks while people are dying cause they can't breathe.

I remember being in supervision Monday talking about not knowing if jobs will be available for guys like me come August/September. My supervisor said it's in the future and not to focus too much on it. My response to him is similar to my response to you.


Right now, we have a LOT of time to think about and focus on very unimportant things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on March 24, 2020, 03:24:56 PM

That's a horrible account and I hope she's on the mend sooner rather than later.  Let's not overlook that she stated she's asthmatic.

The New England Journal of Med article is eye opening... the recommendations are put forward if medical supply scarcity reaches a point of no return/no escape.  Physicians aren't yet using the recommendations based on how the article reads because we haven't yet reached that level of scarcity.  I have hope that we (the world) will pull together and help one another with scarcity of medical supplies.  I was heartened last night before bed when I read an article that stated that China is working 24/7 to produce ventilators for NY and I am greatly encouraged by companies willingly shifting production models to produce med supplies (Tesla, Ford, GM, Honeywell, etc).  The NEJ recommendations are preparing medical staff for the possibility of an over-run, triage based healthcare system response.  Hopefully we won't get to that point and Social Distancing will help keep us from getting there I believe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 03:24:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 03:20:14 PM

- the ol' standby, "terrified"

Stadler, I know you probably didn't intend this, but this actually rubs me the wrong way. The gall to mock people saying they're terrified by a new disease sweeping the entire planet, combined with a dire shortage of medical supplies and mixed messages from the POTUS... what the hell, dude? People have every right to be terrified especially if they live in, say, New York City. I have a friend living there who is scared out of her mind because of the situation in the city.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 24, 2020, 03:25:55 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 24, 2020, 03:22:52 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 03:20:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:18:23 PM

I am officially tired of the term "social distancing."

We're getting close to being able to play "Corona Virus Bingo!"   

- "Social distancing"
- "An abundance of caution"
- the ol' standby, "terrified"
- "the cure can't be worse than the cause"

I'm sure there'll be more before this is all over.

Shelter in place.

What was that Megadeth song from 30 years ago?  "Poison was the Cure" - Rust in Peace

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: contest_sanity on March 24, 2020, 03:30:33 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 24, 2020, 03:22:52 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2020, 03:20:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:18:23 PM

I am officially tired of the term "social distancing."

We're getting close to being able to play "Corona Virus Bingo!"   

- "Social distancing"
- "An abundance of caution"
- the ol' standby, "terrified"
- "the cure can't be worse than the cause"

I'm sure there'll be more before this is all over.

Shelter in place.

Stadler in place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:32:07 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:22:39 PM

Fortunately those terms are out there to help all people so maybe we can suck it up and be annoyed by words for a few more weeks while people are dying cause they can't breathe.

Sure they're meant to help. But when they're said a million times they lose meaning. "Stay six feet away from others" is much more meaningful than "practice social distancing".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 24, 2020, 03:40:41 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 02:38:12 PM

That account certainly sounds awful, but that's not a normal case, that's a bad case. A bad case of the flu feels like death too (and can lead to death for otherwise healthy people). Not necessarily saying this is no worse than the flu. It certainly likely is. Just pointing out that only a small minority have a case as bad as that.

This is true. But the amount of cases similar to this is significant enough that in Europe many hospitals are being overrun quickly. And as I said before, a good portion of our (and Belgiums) intensive care cases seem to be people under their 50s with no major prior health complications, so in that regard what she describes is not a one in a million case study, it is something that will happen to a subset of people everywhere if this virus keeps spreading.

It is a fact that the almost yearly flu season does not flood our hospitals with intensive care cases. This virus does, with only a small portion of the population infected.

 (And actually, this years flu is pretty bad and is still going on, which obviously does not help).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 03:53:10 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:32:07 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:22:39 PM

Fortunately those terms are out there to help all people so maybe we can suck it up and be annoyed by words for a few more weeks while people are dying cause they can't breathe.

Sure they're meant to help. But when they're said a million times they lose meaning. "Stay six feet away from others" is much more meaningful than "practice social distancing".

So, we repeat phrases to instill them into people's heads and make people pay attention. But apparently repeating phrases makes them lose their meaning. Honestly, I think people are just looking for things to complain about. I've heard "Stay six feet away from others" about as often as I've heard "practice social distancing." I don't get the logic in criticizing repeating good advice when the worst of the storm hasn't even washed over us yet.

I know the people who can't breathe because they have no respirators sure don't think it's annoying, or the people who have lost family members.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 24, 2020, 04:28:43 PM

Great post Kattelox.

Some people still need to hear that advice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 24, 2020, 04:35:36 PM

Good advice here on how to keep your groceries from infecting you and your home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k348fKTTpEI&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1-klITAYkhsMIf53yvTjlbyq0TKNSbGCdMLCnf3pECrJwx-ooH6vuVDz8

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 04:59:36 PM

Goddamn, after watching that, I don't want to go to work tomorrow!


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/grocery-stores-are-the-coronavirus-tipping-point/ar-BB11DZiC?ocid=spartanntp

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 05:45:46 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:53:10 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:32:07 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:22:39 PM

Fortunately those terms are out there to help all people so maybe we can suck it up and be annoyed by words for a few more weeks while people are dying cause they can't breathe.

Sure they're meant to help. But when they're said a million times they lose meaning. "Stay six feet away from others" is much more meaningful than "practice social distancing".

So, we repeat phrases to instill them into people's heads and make people pay attention. But apparently repeating phrases makes them lose their meaning. Honestly, I think people are just looking for things to complain about. I've heard "Stay six feet away from others" about as often as I've heard "practice social distancing." I don't get the logic in criticizing repeating good advice when the worst of the storm hasn't even washed over us yet.

I know the people who can't breathe because they have no respirators sure don't think it's annoying, or the people who have lost family members.

Not going to argue with you. If you think coming up with a new term "social distancing" is helpful, then throw it out all you want. I personally think being more explicit: "stay home" or "stay 6 feet away" is more powerful, but I'm not opposed to anything that works.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2020, 05:51:43 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-coronavirus-cases-surge-2-141504592.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-coronavirus-cases-surge-2-141504592.html)

First person under the age of 18 in CA has died.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 24, 2020, 07:25:34 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 05:45:46 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:53:10 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:32:07 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:22:39 PM

Fortunately those terms are out there to help all people so maybe we can suck it up and be annoyed by words for a few more weeks while people are dying cause they can't breathe.

Sure they're meant to help. But when they're said a million times they lose meaning. "Stay six feet away from others" is much more meaningful than "practice social distancing".

So, we repeat phrases to instill them into people's heads and make people pay attention. But apparently repeating phrases makes them lose their meaning. Honestly, I think people are just looking for things to complain about. I've heard "Stay six feet away from others" about as often as I've heard "practice social distancing." I don't get the logic in criticizing repeating good advice when the worst of the storm hasn't even washed over us yet.

I know the people who can't breathe because they have no respirators sure don't think it's annoying, or the people who have lost family members.

Not going to argue with you. If you think coming up with a new term "social distancing" is helpful, then throw it out all you want. I personally think being more explicit: "stay home" or "stay 6 feet away" is more powerful, but I'm not opposed to anything that works.

But, by using your own logic, saying THAT a million times makes it lose its meaning. And the message remains the same, so all you're doing is changing the presentation; using your own logic should result in the same conclusion. Do you see what I'm saying? The message remains the same regardless, and your complaint would apply either way. That's my point - what is the point? It accomplishes nothing, my dude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on March 24, 2020, 07:28:12 PM

The governor of Tennessee has set a return date for state workers on temporary AWS to April 27th.  My wife noted the begin and return date on the calendar.  If she starts marking off the
days...

The governor also suggested the counties not open schools until at least April 27th.

A parent on Facebook is whining that this is ruining her daughters senior year.  Really!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 07:34:24 PM

Quote from: mike099 on March 24, 2020, 07:28:12 PM

A parent on Facebook is whining that this is ruining her daughters senior year.  Really!

Generally speaking, I understand that. Unless this person is a selfish whiner anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 24, 2020, 08:25:02 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 07:34:24 PM

Quote from: mike099 on March 24, 2020, 07:28:12 PM

A parent on Facebook is whining that this is ruining her daughters senior year.  Really!

Generally speaking, I understand that. Unless this person is a selfish whiner anyway.

I agree.  Imagine being s senior in college on a basketball team going to the 64 only to have it canceled because of the virus.

I understand their pain.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 08:30:33 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 24, 2020, 08:25:02 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2020, 07:34:24 PM

Quote from: mike099 on March 24, 2020, 07:28:12 PM

A parent on Facebook is whining that this is ruining her daughters senior year.  Really!

Generally speaking, I understand that. Unless this person is a selfish whiner anyway.

I agree.  Imagine being s senior in college on a basketball team going to the 64 only to have it canceled because of the virus.

I understand their pain.

A parent's dream is to see their child walk across the stage and receive their diploma. I totally understand that. It's possible Mike was reacting to a whiner, but while these are fucked up times, it's easy to see why a parent would lament this.

My oldest son is a senior. He's also a special needs kid who has worked his ass of to not just graduate with a certificate, but he has earned his diploma. His high school graduation is a major achievement in his life.
Not to mention our trip to Italy this summer which was his graduation present.  :facepalm:  All he wanted to do was see the Coliseum.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 24, 2020, 08:36:46 PM

U feel your pain Tim.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2020, 08:43:54 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 24, 2020, 08:36:46 PM

U feel your pain Tim.

I sure do! :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 24, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 19, 2020, 07:59:16 AM

A DT fan came to a preshow I was hosting in Baltimore a couple of years ago.  He ended up helping me big time, we became friends, and together hosted the recent preshows in DC in April (over 80 attendees) and Baltimore in October (over 50 attendees).  If anyone here attended, he was the bearded guy with the skulls. :D

Last night, him and his wife took their two year old daughter to the E.R., because she had a 104.7 temperature.  From his Fbook

Coronavirus screening was in being done at Carroll County Hospital, before we even walked in the door. We were asked questions about travel and symptoms. Also, w visitation/escort procedures had been altered- my wife had to go back with her alone while I waited in the car.  My daughter's fever was brought down with Motrin and Tylenol, and she is currently OK.

She tested negative for the Flu and RSV.

Since fever is a symptom of COVID-19, it is a possibility. But my daughter could not be tested for it because the doctor said they are only testing critical patients, because there aren't enough test kits yet. He recommended we self quarantine for 14 days, and we will.

Downright scary, as most people who get COVID-19 will not be critical. We should be doing more testing. The quarantine is just a recommendation. I am sure some people won't follow if they have the same experience.

Quoting my own post from a few days back.  Well, my friend's daughter became worse yesterday, they took her back to the hospital, they finally tested her, but won't know the results for days.  And yet again, the friend and his wife didn't get tested, because there are not enough kits.

https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2020/03/24/coronavirus-test-shortage-latest/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 24, 2020, 10:40:02 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 02:38:12 PM

That account certainly sounds awful, but that's not a normal case, that's a bad case. A bad case of the flu feels like death too (and can lead to death for otherwise healthy people). Not necessarily saying this is no worse than the flu. It certainly likely is. Just pointing out that only a small minority have a case as bad as that.

She also says she's asthmatic, so that might've made it worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 24, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 19, 2020, 07:59:16 AM

A DT fan came to a preshow I was hosting in Baltimore a couple of years ago.  He ended up helping me big time, we became friends, and together hosted the recent preshows in DC in April (over 80 attendees) and Baltimore in October (over 50 attendees).  If anyone here attended, he was the bearded guy with the skulls. :D

Last night, him and his wife took their two year old daughter to the E.R., because she had a 104.7 temperature.  From his Fbook

Coronavirus screening was in being done at Carroll County Hospital, before we even walked in the door. We were asked questions about travel and symptoms. Also, w visitation/escort procedures had been altered- my wife had to go back with her alone while I waited in the car.  My daughter's fever was brought down with Motrin and Tylenol, and she is currently OK.

She tested negative for the Flu and RSV.

Since fever is a symptom of COVID-19, it is a possibility. But my daughter could not be tested for it because the doctor said they are only testing critical patients, because there aren't enough test kits yet. He recommended we self quarantine for 14 days, and we will.

Downright scary, as most people who get COVID-19 will not be critical. We should be doing more testing. The quarantine is just a recommendation. I am sure some people won't follow if they have the same experience.

Quoting my own post from a few days back.  Well, my friend's daughter became worse yesterday, they took her back to the hospital, they finally tested her, but won't know the results for days.  And yet again, the friend and his wife didn't get tested, because there are not enough kits.

https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2020/03/24/coronavirus-test-shortage-latest/

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2020, 08:16:42 AM

^Very helpful. :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 25, 2020, 08:37:18 AM

In more simpler terms.  The virus affects different people in many different ways causing many different reactions.  Some may have it and not be sick at all.  That's the really scary part.

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:53:10 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 24, 2020, 03:32:07 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 24, 2020, 03:22:39 PM

Fortunately those terms are out there to help all people so maybe we can suck it up and be annoyed by words for a few more weeks while people are dying cause they can't breathe.

Sure they're meant to help. But when they're said a million times they lose meaning. "Stay six feet away from others" is much more meaningful than "practice social distancing".

So, we repeat phrases to instill them into people's heads and make people pay attention. But apparently repeating phrases makes them lose their meaning. Honestly, I think people are just looking for things to complain about. I've heard "Stay six feet away from others" about as often as I've heard "practice social distancing." I don't get the logic in criticizing repeating good advice when the worst of the storm hasn't even washed over us yet.

I know the people who can't breathe because they have no respirators sure don't think it's annoying, or the people who have lost family members.

Exactly.  People can actually call it what ever they want.  I call it "not being around all the other whiny motherfuckers".  Or, "stay 6 feet away from me and out of kicking distance."  :lol :rollin :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 25, 2020, 08:40:20 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Is there any data on how people with auto-immune disorders react? Like psoriasis?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2020, 08:52:49 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 25, 2020, 08:37:18 AM

In more simpler terms.  The virus affects different people in many different ways causing many different reactions.  Some may have it and not be sick at all.  That's the really scary part.

Well, I wouldn't really call it "scary" though, and I think it is a problem when we react that way.  What that means is that, as health officials have been saying is the likely scenario fairly consistently right from the beginning, our reaction to this particular cold virus in this respect is fairly similar to other cold viruses.  Yes, there are some key differences.  But in terms of reaction, once symptoms manifest, our bodies' reactions to them tend to follow a similar pattern in many respects. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 25, 2020, 08:57:17 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Well, don't forget, this virus has been mutating and is different in different locations compared to the strain in China, from everything I've read. So I wouldn't be surprised if some of the symptoms are actually worse depending on the location, as well as all of the above.

Biology (and virology) is wild.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 25, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 25, 2020, 08:40:20 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Is there any data on how people with auto-immune disorders react? Like psoriasis?

From what I can find, there doesn't seem to be an inherent elevated risk for these patients (it's not like they are immunocompromised); I don't think they are any more likely to have cytokine storms than anyone else, as in autoimmune diseases, it's about the body inappropriately attacking one very specific kind of cell.  The one wrinkle here is that the meds for psoraisis are themselves immunosuppressants.  What I'm seeing preliminary is that it is recommended that people stay on their biologics, and follow all of the recommendations about distancing, sanitation, etc.  It could be a bit different of other autoimmune disorders, which may require heavier duty drugs (e.g. methotrexate, which is basically chemo), or where the person is in crummy overall health in the first place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2020, 09:05:50 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 25, 2020, 08:57:17 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Well, don't forget, this virus has been mutating and is different in different locations compared to the strain in China, from everything I've read. So I wouldn't be surprised if some of the symptoms are actually worse depending on the location, as well as all of the above.

Biology (and virology) is wild.

I read one study yesterday saying it's not mutating fast enough for a mutation to be a concern in the near future.  This stuff changes every day and who knows the truth though. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 25, 2020, 09:09:32 AM

Prince Charles tested positive.

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

From what I can find, there doesn't seem to be an inherent elevated risk for these patients (it's not like they are immunocompromised); I don't think they are any more likely to have cytokine storms than anyone else, as in autoimmune diseases, it's about the body inappropriately attacking one very specific kind of cell.  The one wrinkle here is that the meds for psoraisis are themselves immunosuppressants.  What I'm seeing preliminary is that it is recommended that people stay on their biologics, and follow all of the recommendations about distancing, sanitation, etc.  It could be a bit different of other autoimmune disorders, which may require heavier duty drugs (e.g. methotrexate, which is basically chemo), or where the person is in crummy overall health in the first place.

I actually went off my biologics (Otezla) last year, my insurance shifted with my job, and my copay for it went from 20/mo to 250/mo (but on the other side, the new insurance supplied me with an at home UVb unit, which makes up for it).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on March 25, 2020, 09:12:19 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 25, 2020, 09:05:50 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 25, 2020, 08:57:17 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Well, don't forget, this virus has been mutating and is different in different locations compared to the strain in China, from everything I've read. So I wouldn't be surprised if some of the symptoms are actually worse depending on the location, as well as all of the above.

Biology (and virology) is wild.

I read one study yesterday saying it's not mutating fast enough for a mutation to be a concern in the near future.  This stuff changes every day and who knows the truth though. 

I was thinking about this the other day as another reason to keep infections as low as possible, even among those less likely to be affected directly. I don't know if the science behind this theory is sound or not, but it would stand to reason that the more people infected, the more attempts the virus is making at replicating, and the higher likelihood of a deadlier mutation occurring.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 25, 2020, 09:16:15 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 25, 2020, 09:05:50 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 25, 2020, 08:57:17 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Well, don't forget, this virus has been mutating and is different in different locations compared to the strain in China, from everything I've read. So I wouldn't be surprised if some of the symptoms are actually worse depending on the location, as well as all of the above.

Biology (and virology) is wild.

I read one study yesterday saying it's not mutating fast enough for a mutation to be a concern in the near future.  This stuff changes every day and who knows the truth though.

There's no selection pressure to drive mutation, because there is no treatment...it can rip through the population like wildfire as-is. A little bit of drift is to be expected (as in anything over the course of generations), but nothing terribly radical.

EDIT: To Nick's point, there could be mutations making it more severe...though there could also be ones that make it less so.  It's already infectious as hell...anything that makes it kill much more/faster would actually be disadvantageous for the virus, as it would be less likely to propagate.  Not that it helps us, though...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 25, 2020, 09:23:48 AM

I think I snatched his from Lowdz' FB feed.  There's lots of vids like this out there, but I found this to be a really informative breakdown of how the virus works.  8.5 mins long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtN-goy9VOY

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Volante99 on March 25, 2020, 10:32:13 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 25, 2020, 08:40:20 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 25, 2020, 07:03:27 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 25, 2020, 06:38:09 AM

Hope his daughter is not in critical condition. We are seeing more and more cases of young adults/teenager being hospitalized over COVID. Some had no previous condition.

The previous condition/comorbidity thing can make things much, much worse, but it's not the only reason some people get hit really hard. In some cases, peoples' immune systems basically lose their shit and go HAM (these are the technical terms  :biggrin: ).  Capillaries in the area of the infection already open up a little bit to allow white cells through to fight the virus.  Inflammation lowers the lung volume a bit on its own, and dead cells from the infection (both lung cells and white cells, and mucus) start to fill the lung with fluid, further reducing capacity.  When things go off the rails, the immune system really opens up the capillaries and intensifies its attack, and also starts attacking any target in the area, not just the virus (this is called a cytokine storm).  So now you have a much greater amount of inflammation, a much great rate of fluid accumulation, and the body is attacking healthy tissue.  And add a high fever on top of this. And as far as I'm aware, there's no way to predict who may react in this way (it's not age dependent).

It sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not so much that the disease is really bad in some people, it's that some people's immune systems react REALLY badly to this infection.

Is there any data on how people with auto-immune disorders react? Like psoriasis?

From what I can find, there doesn't seem to be an inherent elevated risk for these patients (it's not like they are immunocompromised); I don't think they are any more likely to have cytokine storms than anyone else, as in autoimmune diseases, it's about the body inappropriately attacking one very specific kind of cell.  The one wrinkle here is that the meds for psoraisis are themselves immunosuppressants.  What I'm seeing preliminary is that it is recommended that people stay on their biologics, and follow all of the recommendations about distancing, sanitation, etc.  It could be a bit different of other autoimmune disorders, which may require heavier duty drugs (e.g. methotrexate, which is basically chemo), or where the person is in crummy overall health in the first place.

I’m on a biologic (Remicade) for Crohn’s disease and fairly concerned. However, It seems like the verdict is really out on whether or not this puts you at a huge disadvantage with Coronavirus. On one hand you’re probably more likely to acquire it and suffer symptoms but also because you’re on a biologic, you’re immune response may prevent things like a cytokine storm, inflammation and just general immune overreaction which is what apparently killed most people in the 1918 flu epidemic. They are recommending people stay on their medication with the exception of prednisone which seems to REALLY weaken the bodies ability to fight off viruses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 25, 2020, 11:36:04 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2020, 08:52:49 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 25, 2020, 08:37:18 AM

In more simpler terms.  The virus affects different people in many different ways causing many different reactions.  Some may have it and not be sick at all.  That's the really scary part.

Well, I wouldn't really call it "scary" though, and I think it is a problem when we react that way.  What that means is that, as health officials have been saying is the likely scenario fairly consistently right from the beginning, our reaction to this particular cold virus in this respect is fairly similar to other cold viruses.  Yes, there are some key differences.  But in terms of reaction, once symptoms manifest, our bodies' reactions to them tend to follow a similar pattern in many respects.

To clarify the scary part, I'm just referring to people who may have the virus but manifest no symptoms and inadvertently pass it on to others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 25, 2020, 12:01:13 PM

Infections slightly trending down for the fourth consecutive day in Italy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2020, 12:30:36 PM

Hopefully, that's a good sign.  But I hate to read too much into it, kinda like watching one's stock portfolio values minute-by-minute and trying to draw conclusions from that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 25, 2020, 12:44:19 PM

I wholeheartedly agree. At least here, drawing fast and instinctive conclusions from convenient data has hindered the reaction machine royally. Still, we can use even a small size trend as encouragement towards enduring strict rules.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2020, 01:00:14 PM

Yea, at this point you got to be happy about any positive news, but it still should be taken lightly and not as "the end is near".  Just too early to tell, but regardless, that is good news to see the flattening of the curve starting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 25, 2020, 01:10:50 PM

Yeah, this is not the D-Day, but with everybody finally brought inside their homee, we can call it a Dunkirk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 25, 2020, 02:41:29 PM

Japanese Americans wish they would have had to suffer like this during WW II.  Forced to stay in one's own home with cable, internet, take out food, booze at the ready......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2020, 04:07:09 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/york-city-st-augustine-fever-024401833.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/york-city-st-augustine-fever-024401833.html)

Quote

Data from health technology company Kinsa, which did the analysis using its digital thermometers, show the number of people with flulike illness — atypical fever and symptoms — began dropping almost immediately after mandatory social distancing measures were implemented in some areas.

The company downloads fever readings from more than 1 million thermometers in use around the U.S.

Kind of cool that there's already data collected that shows social distancing is working. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 25, 2020, 04:53:55 PM

New York yesterday  :'(

Quote

In several hours on Tuesday, Dr. Ashley Bray performed chest compressions at Elmhurst Hospital Center on a woman in her 80s, a man in his 60s and a 38-year-old who reminded the doctor of her fiancé. All had tested positive for the coronavirus and had gone into cardiac arrest. All eventually died.

Elmhurst, a 545-bed public hospital in Queens, has begun transferring patients not suffering from coronavirus to other facilities as it moves toward becoming one dedicated entirely to the outbreak. Doctors and nurses have struggled to make do with a few dozen ventilators. Calls over a loudspeaker of “Team 700,” the code for when a patient is on the verge of death, come several times a shift. Some have died inside the emergency room while waiting for a bed.

A refrigerated truck has been stationed outside to hold the bodies of the dead. Over the past 24 hours, New York City’s public hospital system said in a statement, 13 people at Elmhurst had died.

“It’s apocalyptic,” said Dr. Bray, 27, a general medicine resident at the hospital.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/nyregion/nyc-coronavirus-hospitals.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2020, 05:16:21 PM

My doctor friend shared me a screenshot with his sister, also a doctor in NYC, who said her friend pronounced 11 people dead at a hospital at or near Columbia university (he wasn't clear where his sister's friend was working) and they converted 20 operating rooms to ICU with 4 vents per room.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 25, 2020, 05:45:51 PM

I cannot even fathom what it's like to be working in a hospital in NYC right now. Whatever they're getting paid is not nearly enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2020, 05:52:20 PM

I can't either, whenever I think of how shitty my situation is (which isn't that shitty really) I think about those who have it much worse, whether being on the front lines in the hospital or being infected and in the hospital.  Crazy how this is all happening and while it feels like it's been a slow build, it really has been very quick on a global scale.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/25/health/coronavirus-death-peak-three-weeks-epidemiologist/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/25/health/coronavirus-death-peak-three-weeks-epidemiologist/index.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 25, 2020, 06:37:47 PM

Today is the first time I've been out and noticed significantly fewer cars out on the road. The past week or so it's felt like a holiday (no school, government buildings closed, etc...) but today there was an even greater discernible decrease in traffic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 25, 2020, 06:47:48 PM

Today was definitely the lightest so far.


My kids are now out of school until at least May 4th.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 25, 2020, 07:11:20 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 25, 2020, 06:37:47 PM

Today is the first time I've been out and noticed significantly fewer cars out on the road. The past week or so it's felt like a holiday (no school, government buildings closed, etc...) but today there was an even greater discernible decrease in traffic.

Man. Not here. Last few days it was pretty light outside but today was fantastic weather and when I got off work at 5 I saw a bunch of people out for walks, walking their dogs, lots of traffic... it was like people think the shelter in place til April 7th thing only applied really for the weekend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 25, 2020, 07:20:14 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 25, 2020, 07:11:20 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 25, 2020, 06:37:47 PM

Today is the first time I've been out and noticed significantly fewer cars out on the road. The past week or so it's felt like a holiday (no school, government buildings closed, etc...) but today there was an even greater discernible decrease in traffic.

Man. Not here. Last few days it was pretty light outside but today was fantastic weather and when I got off work at 5 I saw a bunch of people out for walks, walking their dogs, lots of traffic... it was like people think the shelter in place til April 7th thing only applied really for the weekend.

I apologize if I wrote this here, but over the weekend - warm - people had to step off the sidewalks to let others pass.   My ex and her husband went hiking and said she ran into like four people she knew.  HIKING.  In the WOODS.   

People are staying home from work and school, but not much else if you're asking me.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 25, 2020, 07:37:52 PM

Why the emphasis on the woods?  I would think that if your stay at home order allows for you to go outside for exercise, and some do, that the woods would be better than the sidewalk. 

(Now personally, if I went to the woods and it was clear I wasn't going to be able to follow the guidelines and stay 6feet away, or maybe 20 for good measure, I'd leave)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 25, 2020, 07:49:29 PM

I think the emphasis on “THE WOODS” is because you don’t expect to see many people in the woods, much less 4 people you know, specially in times when you are being told to stay at home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 25, 2020, 08:07:30 PM

I keep seeing articles on news sites about going hiking and for walks etc. too. Like... it's baffling  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 25, 2020, 08:37:09 PM

I had planned on getting in the car tonight to just go for a drive and crank some tunes, but I was under the weather for much of the day, so that went by the wayside.  Maybe tomorrow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 25, 2020, 09:43:23 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 25, 2020, 08:07:30 PM

I keep seeing articles on news sites about going hiking and for walks etc. too. Like... it's baffling  :lol

I imagine there is some psychological aspect to this.... if you tell people "Never leave the house," they are going to say "F--- that pal, you can't keep me from leaving my home!" Whereas they say "Stay home, but feel free to take a walk," people will think Fine, I don't mind staying home as long as it is ok if I go out for a walk."

I bet going for a walk will be beneficial for many people too during this crisis, keeping them bringing out their inner Jack Torrence.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 25, 2020, 10:44:01 PM

I was getting a little stir crazy and decided to go for a walk after work (I work from home) yesterday.  It was fucking snowing out.

In other news, our guitarist David is in the ICU with confirmed COVID-19.  Pneumonia, with both respiratory and cardiac issues.  He's critical but stable.  Fuck.  We had a band practice two weeks ago tonight, before the official lockdown here in Illinois, but after we should've known better.  If the incubation period is "5 to 14 days" then there's a chance that he picked it up after I saw him last.  Yeah, right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 26, 2020, 04:45:24 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 25, 2020, 10:44:01 PM

I was getting a little stir crazy and decided to go for a walk after work (I work from home) yesterday.  It was fucking snowing out.

In other news, our guitarist David is in the ICU with confirmed COVID-19.  Pneumonia, with both respiratory and cardiac issues.  He's critical but stable.  Fuck.  We had a band practice two weeks ago tonight, before the official lockdown here in Illinois, but after we should've known better.  If the incubation period is "5 to 14 days" then there's a chance that he picked it up after I saw him last.  Yeah, right.

I'm very sorry for your band mate, Orbert. I'm also hoping you will be well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 05:14:50 AM

Is it just me or does there seem to be an inordinate number of celebrities that have tested positive for Covid-19 compared to the relatively low number of confirmed cases nationwide in the US? I suspect they're using their celebrity status to get tested when the average person wouldn't. Which makes me think that the actual number of cases is woefully under counted. That probably means that the vast majority of cases are minor and falling under the radar. Which is both good and bad.

I've always been very curious what the actual death rate from the virus is. I suspect it's far lower than many estimates (Wuhan China said it was 1.4% of confirmed symptomatic cases, but who knows how many minor or non-symptomatic cases there were that were never identified). Not to say that even 0.5% isn't scary high given how rapidly it spreads and can overwhelm medical care. Crazy times. We'll probably never know the full truth and will have to wait for the dust to settle before we get most of the info.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 26, 2020, 05:23:23 AM

I'm trying to maintain perspective. Like, I'm not lying when I say I haven't even encountered a person with the flu all winter long. So i feel pretty safe about still going to my gym. Still only 2 cases in my county. Orb, I hope you don't have it!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 26, 2020, 05:23:56 AM

In Italy we know that many top football teams got tested, so yeah, I assume that it's the same everywhere, if you can pay, you get the test. And we even have public healthcare, so it's not that the citizens pay directly for the tests here, but regardless of how the sanitary system works, I would not be surprised at all that celebrities / rich / powerful people get ASAP a test.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Polarbear on March 26, 2020, 05:50:01 AM

Scary news coming from The States! :(

Here in Finland we are approaching 1000 confirmed cases and latest death toll is 5 I think. Among the infected is our former President, UN Diplomat and ambassador, and a Nobel Peace Prize owner Martti Ahtisaari. :(

Our capital region is now being quarantined and cut off from the rest of the country. Luckily I don't live around Helsinki.

Stay safe everyone! :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 05:50:54 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 25, 2020, 10:44:01 PM

I was getting a little stir crazy and decided to go for a walk after work (I work from home) yesterday.  It was fucking snowing out.

In other news, our guitarist David is in the ICU with confirmed COVID-19.  Pneumonia, with both respiratory and cardiac issues.  He's critical but stable.  Fuck.  We had a band practice two weeks ago tonight, before the official lockdown here in Illinois, but after we should've known better.  If the incubation period is "5 to 14 days" then there's a chance that he picked it up after I saw him last.  Yeah, right.

That's awful.  I hope he does well.  I'm coming down with a cold and have a sore, scratchy throat.  I was absolutely panicked yesterday (getting only 10 hours of sleep total over the last two nights didn't help, since my kids won't sleep in), but calmed down after I saw a map of official cases in Lake County, and there are very few, if any, in my community.  It at least settled my panic and I realized that I had some nasal congestion, so I'm pretty sure it's just a cold.  All I can do is see what develops - I've barely been anywhere in the last week and a half.  A couple of takeout places and my orthopedic doctor for a quick follow-up.  So I'm pretty sure I haven't picked up the coronavirus.

Hang in there!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 05:55:45 AM

Quote from: Polarbear on March 26, 2020, 05:50:01 AM

Scary news coming from The States! :(

Yeah, it sounds like NYC and other major population hubs are going to be getting hit really hard in the next couple weeks before things hopefully get better as a result of people staying home. But we'll see. It'll be interesting to see how this affects people's desire to live in major cities in the future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 26, 2020, 05:57:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 05:14:50 AM

Is it just me or does there seem to be an inordinate number of celebrities that have tested positive for Covid-19 compared to the relatively low number of confirmed cases nationwide in the US? I suspect they're using their celebrity status to get tested when the average person wouldn't. Which makes me think that the actual number of cases is woefully under counted. That probably means that the vast majority of cases are minor and falling under the radar. Which is both good and bad.

Yep.  The one that clinches it for me is that deaths are about 3x recovered cases...for something with 1-2% mortality.  That leads me to think that only the most severe are getting tested (allowing that recovery may take a longer time than a death).  My back-of-the-envelope guess is that we are under-reporting by a factor of 10.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 06:15:32 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 26, 2020, 05:57:53 AM

My back-of-the-envelope guess is that we are under-reporting by a factor of 10.

That's been my assumption as well, but that's not based on anything other than my gut. Which is both promising (the death and severe case rate likely much lower than what is being reported) and scary (that so many people are unknowingly spreading it).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 26, 2020, 05:57:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 05:14:50 AM

Is it just me or does there seem to be an inordinate number of celebrities that have tested positive for Covid-19 compared to the relatively low number of confirmed cases nationwide in the US? I suspect they're using their celebrity status to get tested when the average person wouldn't. Which makes me think that the actual number of cases is woefully under counted. That probably means that the vast majority of cases are minor and falling under the radar. Which is both good and bad.

Yep.  The one that clinches it for me is that deaths are about 3x recovered cases...for something with 1-2% mortality.  That leads me to think that only the most severe are getting tested (allowing that recovery may take a longer time than a death).  My back-of-the-envelope guess is that we are under-reporting by a factor of 10.

At least.  The data from Wuhan revealed that (at one point early on) they were under-reporting confirmed cases from actual cases by 26x.

Bob... hoping/praying the best for you man.

Sadly, and I heard this very early on, a medical professional in Canada predicted that at some point, it will only be one degree of separation of knowing someone who dies from COVID.  IE, at a minimum, everyone will know someone who knows someone who died from this.  Welp.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 26, 2020, 06:56:03 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 05:55:45 AM

Quote from: Polarbear on March 26, 2020, 05:50:01 AM

Scary news coming from The States! :(

Yeah, it sounds like NYC and other major population hubs are going to be getting hit really hard in the next couple weeks before things hopefully get better as a result of people staying home. But we'll see. It'll be interesting to see how this affects people's desire to live in major cities in the future.

1) a good number of people are not staying home here. Just yesterday Mayor of NYC announced he is removing Basketball hoops from certain courts and possibly closing parks/playgrounds around the city because people are not following Social Distancing. I mentioned a few times how I've been walking to work because buses are still packed. (Timed myself today, fast paced walk took me 3 Mastodon songs and 2 Gojira songs, 42 minutes in total).

2) I don't know about other people, but I've been wanting to move out of NYC for a while. I even had plans to check out some places in the west coast in June (probably won't happen).

Also, I was reading an article yesterday how a lot of places are under-counting the number of COVID related death. Some die before they can be diagnosed, others are simply being counted as something else. Even the 17 year old from LA is being counted as something else (for now).

https://abc7ny.com/health/boys-death-no-longer-counted-among-la-countys-coronavirus-total/6049274/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 07:45:43 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 26, 2020, 06:56:03 AM

Also, I was reading an article yesterday how a lot of places are under-counting the number of COVID related death. Some die before they can be diagnosed, others are simply being counted as something else. Even the 17 year old from LA is being counted as something else (for now).

This raises the question though of how to count deaths. If a person with heart disease dies of heart failure while they had Covid-19, did they die of Covid-19 or did they die of heart disease? Does it matter if a person dies of Covid-19 versus dying with Covid-19?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 08:00:10 AM

That's an interesting question.  When David was first admitted to the hospital, the diagnosis was pneumonia.  But apparently that's something that can be caused by the virus, which doesn't completely make sense to me.  Pneumonia is a bacterial infection, COVID-19 is a virus.

It's kinda like AIDS in that sense.  You don't die from AIDS; you die because AIDS destroyed your immune system, allowing you to die from pneumonia or something else that you might otherwise have been able to fight off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 26, 2020, 08:00:24 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM

Sadly, and I heard this very early on, a medical professional in Canada predicted that at some point, it will only be one degree of separation of knowing someone who dies from COVID.  IE, at a minimum, everyone will know someone who knows someone who died from this.  Welp.

Isn't this a little misleading in the age of social media? I know I'm not the only one connected to people all across the country or even the globe. "I know someone who knows someone who has died from this" as an indicator of "o lawd death he comin for us all" is a bit overly fearful don'tcha think? I live in BFE, America and am friends with people in Japan, South Africa, Norway, Russia, the list goes on. Perspective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 26, 2020, 08:01:57 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 26, 2020, 08:00:24 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM

Sadly, and I heard this very early on, a medical professional in Canada predicted that at some point, it will only be one degree of separation of knowing someone who dies from COVID.  IE, at a minimum, everyone will know someone who knows someone who died from this.  Welp.

Isn't this a little misleading in the age of social media? I know I'm not the only one connected to people all across the country or even the globe. "I know someone who knows someone who has died from this" as an indicator of "o lawd death he comin for us all" is a bit overly fearful don'tcha think?

Makes total sense. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 26, 2020, 08:02:30 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 26, 2020, 05:57:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 05:14:50 AM

Is it just me or does there seem to be an inordinate number of celebrities that have tested positive for Covid-19 compared to the relatively low number of confirmed cases nationwide in the US? I suspect they're using their celebrity status to get tested when the average person wouldn't. Which makes me think that the actual number of cases is woefully under counted. That probably means that the vast majority of cases are minor and falling under the radar. Which is both good and bad.

Yep.  The one that clinches it for me is that deaths are about 3x recovered cases...for something with 1-2% mortality.  That leads me to think that only the most severe are getting tested (allowing that recovery may take a longer time than a death).  My back-of-the-envelope guess is that we are under-reporting by a factor of 10.

I agree that number of cases is way under counted because of the absolute poor job in our initial response to the crisis. But for now, I am going to give celebrities a break and here's why, a good number of politicians, actors and sports figures do a great deal of traveling and are in close quarters with others whether it be ball games or the awards season (Grammy/Oscar). These are all in very population dense cities so it makes sense that they are high risk and would need to be tested and tracked.
I live in a small town in Mid-Missouri having moved here from Dallas, TX 2 years ago and for the first time, I can actually say that I am glad I am living here and not in Dallas TX.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 26, 2020, 08:02:50 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 08:00:10 AM

It's kinda like AIDS in that sense.  You don't die from AIDS; you die because AIDS destroyed your immune system, allowing you to die from pneumonia or something else that you might otherwise have been able to fight off.

I was just about to post the same example. Freddie Mercury died of pneumonia in the end. But only because AIDS destroyed his immune system to the point that a pneumonia resulted fatal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 26, 2020, 08:04:02 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 08:00:10 AM

That's an interesting question.  When David was first admitted to the hospital, the diagnosis was pneumonia.  But apparently that's something that can be caused by the virus, which doesn't completely make sense to me.  Pneumonia is a bacterial infection, COVID-19 is a virus.

It's kinda like AIDS in that sense.  You don't die from AIDS; you die because AIDS destroyed your immune system, allowing you to die from pneumonia or something else that you might otherwise have been able to fight off.

That's exactly it, pneumonia is very opportunistic, and a severe COVID-19 infection creates that opportunity.

Quote from: Kattelox on March 26, 2020, 08:00:24 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM

Sadly, and I heard this very early on, a medical professional in Canada predicted that at some point, it will only be one degree of separation of knowing someone who dies from COVID.  IE, at a minimum, everyone will know someone who knows someone who died from this.  Welp.

Isn't this a little misleading in the age of social media? I know I'm not the only one connected to people all across the country or even the globe. "I know someone who knows someone who has died from this" as an indicator of "o lawd death he comin for us all" is a bit overly fearful don'tcha think? I live in BFE, America and am friends with people in Japan, South Africa, Norway, Russia, the list goes on. Perspective.

Assume 2% mortality, assume 50% of the population.  Do you know 100 people? If so, you're likely to know someone who dies.  All the more so if you know someone who is uniquely vulnerable (you know anyone who is in their mid-60s or older, is diabetic, or is severely overweight).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 26, 2020, 08:05:56 AM

Quote from: Polarbear on March 26, 2020, 05:50:01 AM

Here in Finland we are approaching 1000 confirmed cases and latest death toll is 5 I think.

The amount of daily confirmed cases seems to have flatlined to about 75-90 for now. I read that as the epidemic having not gained much momentum outside the capital region.

Meanwhile in Sweden the death toll peaked to 66 (out of about 2800 confirmed cases)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 26, 2020, 08:07:39 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 26, 2020, 08:04:02 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 26, 2020, 08:00:24 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM

Sadly, and I heard this very early on, a medical professional in Canada predicted that at some point, it will only be one degree of separation of knowing someone who dies from COVID.  IE, at a minimum, everyone will know someone who knows someone who died from this.  Welp.

Isn't this a little misleading in the age of social media? I know I'm not the only one connected to people all across the country or even the globe. "I know someone who knows someone who has died from this" as an indicator of "o lawd death he comin for us all" is a bit overly fearful don'tcha think? I live in BFE, America and am friends with people in Japan, South Africa, Norway, Russia, the list goes on. Perspective.

Assume 2% mortality, assume 50% of the population.  Do you know 100 people? If so, you're likely to know someone who dies.  All the more so if you know someone who is uniquely vulnerable (you know anyone who is in their mid-60s or older, is diabetic, or is severely overweight).

That's assuming we all live in equally populated areas with equal rates of infection and transmission, with the same rates of death on top of that. I know hundreds of people. I don't know a single person who's said they've been infected with the virus, so I can't say this hypothetical premise is a very constructive thought exercise. Again, perspective. Life isn't a video game; my place of living is simply not going to experience the same level of outbreak as New York City if we continue to follow good hygiene and avoid mass gatherings. Not saying people aren't going to die but when we take 'averages' and apply them to every single person like it's an accurate measurement of the upcoming tragedy, I just don't think that jibes. And I hate that I have to say this every time but please do not mistake my stance here as being flippant and unconcerned.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on March 26, 2020, 08:08:07 AM

Orbert, pneumonia can have both bacterial and viral underlying causes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 26, 2020, 08:13:15 AM

Quote from: Nick on March 26, 2020, 08:08:07 AM

Orbert, pneumonia can have both bacterial and viral underlying causes.

True, a few years back my mom got pneumonia which they first tried to treat with antibiotics thinking it was bacterial.  When she got worse, they determined in was viral and she was hospitalized for 3 weeks.  There is no treatment for viral pneumonia, only supportive care.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 08:16:17 AM

The more you know.

I have a friend from back home who also has COVID-19, confirmed.  He plays on a team, they had a meet a few weeks ago, and he is now one of at least 28 people (!) diagnosed with it.  That was on Tuesday.  He's been posting regular updates on Facebook, partly because he doesn't have a lot else to do right now, and partly because it's of great interest to me and presumably others to follow his journey through this.

They all know each other in the league, and have been sharing stories.  Of the 28, all are still alive (as of Tuesday) although three were in ICU.  He collected everyone's symptoms and posted them all, just so people could have a one-stop source of testamonials to compare and contrast.  Also, I've now read all of these first-hand accounts and when I start having symptoms, I have some idea of what it might or might not be.  Everyone gets the dry cough.  Not all the time, just once in a while, along with the low grade fever.  After three days, it seems to ease off, but then comes back with a vengeance with more "flu-like" symptoms.  Body aches, mostly in the back and lower back area.  Some get the body aches pretty bad, some not at all, most somewhere in between.  The rest of the symptoms vary more.  Some also have congestion and/or runny nose, some don't.  It's also possible that these people also happened to catch a cold at the same time.  Anyway, you get the idea.  I'm not sure how much it will help to know all this once I start showing symptoms, but I'm someone who likes to know things, so at least I'll have a little more peace of mind.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 26, 2020, 09:14:36 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KPbJ0-DxTc

Coronavirus Rhapsody. This actually made me smile  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 09:47:57 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 05:50:54 AM

It at least settled my panic and I realized that I had some nasal congestion, so I'm pretty sure it's just a cold.

Dude, not to further alarm you, but coronavirus IS a cold.  If you are having cold symptoms, you should start immediately treating it is if it is coronavirus, and completely isolate.

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 08:00:10 AM

That's an interesting question.  When David was first admitted to the hospital, the diagnosis was pneumonia.  But apparently that's something that can be caused by the virus, which doesn't completely make sense to me.  Pneumonia is a bacterial infection, COVID-19 is a virus.

It's kinda like AIDS in that sense.  You don't die from AIDS; you die because AIDS destroyed your immune system, allowing you to die from pneumonia or something else that you might otherwise have been able to fight off.

Orbert, read this:  https://www.inogen.com/blog/12-signs-cold-may-pneumonia/ 

Quote

Pneumonia is almost always caused by a virus or a bacterial infection. Viral pneumonia often begins as a cold or the flu, then develops into pneumonia. Symptoms of pneumonia caused by a virus come on more gradually and are usually milder than bacterial pneumonia. Bacterial pneumonia often occurs after a viral illness, but comes from common bacteria (usually streptococcus pneumoniae or mycoplasma pneumonia) that the body is unable to fight off because the previous illness lowered the immune system.

Quote from: Kattelox on March 26, 2020, 05:23:23 AM

I'm trying to maintain perspective. Like, I'm not lying when I say I haven't even encountered a person with the flu all winter long. So i feel pretty safe about still going to my gym. Still only 2 cases in my county. Orb, I hope you don't have it!!

Dude, I'm not trying to get on your case, but honestly, other than an ER, a gym sounds like perhaps THE most likely place to pick it up.  I would be rethinking my decision to go if I were in your shoes.  I get that you live in a rural area with no reported cases.  But you have been following along and know how long it takes for symptoms to manifest in someone who may be carrying.  Stay healthy, man! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on March 26, 2020, 09:52:08 AM

Gym = hot humid environment, everyone touching everything, lots of perspiration and exhalation and inhalation...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 26, 2020, 09:56:28 AM

Quarantine Positive Motivational Update for Today: crime is 75% down in Italy since lockdown.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 10:07:31 AM

499, 541 global cases at this very moment - Italy still to report, so the globe will crest 1/2 million today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 26, 2020, 10:10:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 10:07:31 AM

499, 541 global cases at this very moment - Italy still to report, so the globe will crest 1/2 million today.

Indeed, we just "defended" our second place of cases from the USA, and we're "attempting" to dethrone China from the top.

Which hopefully won't happen today, but likely tomorrow or the day after tomorrow at best. We're gonna become the nation with most cases in the world. Eventually, and just by the sheer difference in population size, the "leadership" will pass to the USA.

Also Spain is doing very bad (and very quickly, the earliest other nations with cases were Germany and France), the worst after Italy in Europe, poor them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 10:15:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 09:47:57 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 05:50:54 AM

It at least settled my panic and I realized that I had some nasal congestion, so I'm pretty sure it's just a cold.

Dude, not to further alarm you, but coronavirus IS a cold.  If you are having cold symptoms, you should start immediately treating it is if it is coronavirus, and completely isolate.

 

I am, I haven't left the house since this came on yesterday afternoon.  I haven't seen anyone but my immediately family since the symptoms started.  It's just me, my wife and kids.  I'm not going to shut myself in a room in the house for 14 days though.  My kids are 2 and 4 and it just isn't going to work.  I have to be dad and keep life as normal as possible for them. 

Plus, if I did have the big bug, they're already exposed just by living here.  So it is what it is, and I see what develops.   My family has had a cold for 4 weeks now, since well before any confirmed cases were in my state.  We can't kick it, it just keeps coming back.  So all I can do is throw my arms up in the air and see what happens.  If I get a fever, then I've hit the jackpot. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 10:16:34 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 09:47:57 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 08:00:10 AM

That's an interesting question.  When David was first admitted to the hospital, the diagnosis was pneumonia.  But apparently that's something that can be caused by the virus, which doesn't completely make sense to me.  Pneumonia is a bacterial infection, COVID-19 is a virus.

It's kinda like AIDS in that sense.  You don't die from AIDS; you die because AIDS destroyed your immune system, allowing you to die from pneumonia or something else that you might otherwise have been able to fight off.

Orbert, read this:  https://www.inogen.com/blog/12-signs-cold-may-pneumonia/ 

Quote

Pneumonia is almost always caused by a virus or a bacterial infection. Viral pneumonia often begins as a cold or the flu, then develops into pneumonia. Symptoms of pneumonia caused by a virus come on more gradually and are usually milder than bacterial pneumonia. Bacterial pneumonia often occurs after a viral illness, but comes from common bacteria (usually streptococcus pneumoniae or mycoplasma pneumonia) that the body is unable to fight off because the previous illness lowered the immune system.

Good to know.  I think I "learned" that pneumonia could be either bacterial or viral some time ago, but it just didn't stick.  Somehow I had it in my head that pneumonia is a specific condition caused by bacteria.  Like so many other things, it's a whole category of conditions with different causes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 26, 2020, 10:25:32 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 26, 2020, 10:10:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 10:07:31 AM

499, 541 global cases at this very moment - Italy still to report, so the globe will crest 1/2 million today.

Indeed, we just "defended" our second place of cases from the USA, and we're "attempting" to dethrone China from the top.

Which hopefully won't happen today, but likely tomorrow or the day after tomorrow at best. We're gonna become the nation with most cases in the world. Eventually, and just by the sheer difference in population size, the "leadership" will pass to the USA.

Also Spain is doing very bad (and very quickly, the earliest other nations with cases were Germany and France), the worst after Italy in Europe, poor them.

At this rate, US will take the #1 spot by the end of the day or early tomorrow morning and Italy will take China's spot by tomorrow as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on March 26, 2020, 10:25:38 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 26, 2020, 10:10:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 10:07:31 AM

499, 541 global cases at this very moment - Italy still to report, so the globe will crest 1/2 million today.

Indeed, we just "defended" our second place of cases from the USA, and we're "attempting" to dethrone China from the top.

A lot of countries looking at Italy, hoping they aren't next.  I'm glad your reported new cases have slowly been declining in the past couple of days, but man that death toll is scary.
Here in the UK we've slowly see it rising, The reaction from the our Government has been a tad slow and I suspect the only reason we aren't shooting up like a lot of big mainland Europe countries is we are an Island.  We are mostly under lockdown now, although not as stringent as other places (I'm still at work, because I can't work from home - but I suspect next week they'll force all non essential businesses to close).

Looks like the shite is really hitting the fan in the USA.  From the outside Trump is coming across awful, really awful - hopefully he'll step it up.   Cliche' but Stay Safe everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 10:37:16 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 10:15:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 09:47:57 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 05:50:54 AM

It at least settled my panic and I realized that I had some nasal congestion, so I'm pretty sure it's just a cold.

Dude, not to further alarm you, but coronavirus IS a cold.  If you are having cold symptoms, you should start immediately treating it is if it is coronavirus, and completely isolate.

 

I am, I haven't left the house since this came on yesterday afternoon.  I haven't seen anyone but my immediately family since the symptoms started.  It's just me, my wife and kids.  I'm not going to shut myself in a room in the house for 14 days though.  My kids are 2 and 4 and it just isn't going to work.  I have to be dad and keep life as normal as possible for them. 

Plus, if I did have the big bug, they're already exposed just by living here.  So it is what it is, and I see what develops.   My family has had a cold for 4 weeks now, since well before any confirmed cases were in my state.  We can't kick it, it just keeps coming back.  So all I can do is throw my arms up in the air and see what happens.  If I get a fever, then I've hit the jackpot. 

Aw, man.  Hoping for the best for you.  Hope you can stay positive.  I know it must be hard at times. :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 26, 2020, 10:39:18 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 09:47:57 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 26, 2020, 05:23:23 AM

I'm trying to maintain perspective. Like, I'm not lying when I say I haven't even encountered a person with the flu all winter long. So i feel pretty safe about still going to my gym. Still only 2 cases in my county. Orb, I hope you don't have it!!

Dude, I'm not trying to get on your case, but honestly, other than an ER, a gym sounds like perhaps THE most likely place to pick it up.  I would be rethinking my decision to go if I were in your shoes.  I get that you live in a rural area with no reported cases.  But you have been following along and know how long it takes for symptoms to manifest in someone who may be carrying.  Stay healthy, man!

No, I get that, and I appreciate the concern. On a daily basis, I'm re-evaluating my options for what to do every day when I leave work whether it's for lunch or when I get off at 5. In fact, shortly after posting what you quoted from me, I checked the local news for central Illinois and 4 more cases were reported in the nearby city of Champaign (it was 2 for about a week, then 4 for a few days, and as of today it doubled). So, taking into consideration the fact that plenty more people likely have it and aren't getting tested/won't be tested/4 more of my friends are on lockdown with the cold/flu/potentially COVID-19 themselves, I'm now putting off the gym for the foreseeable future. The deck of cards routine is kicking my ass well enough as it is. :) The only reason I trusted this gym more than anywhere else is due to the low traffic, the incredible amount of discipline I've seen from the rest of the regular members over the last 9 years, and the sheer amount of disinfectant and Lysol in the place at any given moment. Obviously yeah there's a chance I could get it there but I 100% honestly believe I'm much more at risk at my day job, and I haven't even encountered anybody with the flu over the last 7 months, which makes me less anxious than I otherwise would be.

That's a lot of words to say that I agree with and appreciate what you're saying, but here's my two cents (times ten).  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 26, 2020, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 26, 2020, 09:14:36 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KPbJ0-DxTc

Coronavirus Rhapsody. This actually made me smile  :)

That was really great!  Thanks for sharing.  It's nice to get a little laughter at a time like this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 10:37:16 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 10:15:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 26, 2020, 09:47:57 AM

Quote from: Grappler on March 26, 2020, 05:50:54 AM

It at least settled my panic and I realized that I had some nasal congestion, so I'm pretty sure it's just a cold.

Dude, not to further alarm you, but coronavirus IS a cold.  If you are having cold symptoms, you should start immediately treating it is if it is coronavirus, and completely isolate.

 

I am, I haven't left the house since this came on yesterday afternoon.  I haven't seen anyone but my immediately family since the symptoms started.  It's just me, my wife and kids.  I'm not going to shut myself in a room in the house for 14 days though.  My kids are 2 and 4 and it just isn't going to work.  I have to be dad and keep life as normal as possible for them. 

Plus, if I did have the big bug, they're already exposed just by living here.  So it is what it is, and I see what develops.   My family has had a cold for 4 weeks now, since well before any confirmed cases were in my state.  We can't kick it, it just keeps coming back.  So all I can do is throw my arms up in the air and see what happens.  If I get a fever, then I've hit the jackpot. 

Aw, man.  Hoping for the best for you.  Hope you can stay positive.  I know it must be hard at times. :hug:

Virtual hug!  I'm not too worried.  Just have to wait and see.  So far, it just feels like a regular cold coming on. 

Edit:  Spoke to my primary care physician.  They think it's just an upper respiratory virus and/or possible strep throat.  It doesn't really feel like the usual strep throat/sore throat, but I get a Z-pack anyways.  They weren't concerned in the slightest about me having coronavirus by my description of the few symptoms I have and I wouldn't qualify to get tested.

It's amazing that the sniffles or a sore throat can put you in a panic or make you question any illness, especially by reading all sorts of things and opinions online.  Better to be safe and check with your doctor. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 26, 2020, 12:05:12 PM

Most of the places will be closed here come Saturday, and all the non-essential businesses are to be closed for the next week. Haven't seen the official statement from our workplace yet, but rumours are we'll spend the whole next week in self-isolation with no one coming to work. That'll be at least nine days of total self-isolation for me, starting this Saturday until next Sunday (and possibly more depending on what government decides).

My PS4 (with Detroit: Become Human, Horizon: Zero Dawn and The Last of Us included in the package) arrived to my doorstep today and I stacked up on veggies and booze (already have lots of frozen food) on my way back home from work, and not going to lie, I'm really looking forward to this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 01:48:05 PM

I finished HZD about a month ago.  Loved it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 26, 2020, 01:58:46 PM

As of 5pm tomorrow, my county will be in a "stay at home" status.  Only essential businesses to remain open.

Guess who works for an essential business?



 :justjen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 26, 2020, 01:58:46 PM

Guess who works for an essential business?

Everyone? Cuz that's what it seems like here in Minnesota. I swear I don't know a single person who's not considered essential.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 02:15:35 PM

I got kicked out of the building for being there too long today for work  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 26, 2020, 02:19:42 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 26, 2020, 01:58:46 PM

Guess who works for an essential business?

Everyone? Cuz that's what it seems like here in Minnesota. I swear I don't know a single person who's not considered essential.

I won't say the city - though I know one person here who lives nearby, and many of us enjoy a band that has ties to it - but someone on a staff call today said that in that city, basically florists are the only business where there has been no exceptions to the "non-essential business" designation.  Meaning, every other industry has some percentage of it's businesses deemed to be "essential".   I don't know if that is factually true or not, but the point is, "essential" is a matter of discretion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 26, 2020, 02:25:45 PM

When Illinois announced the SIP thing on Friday/Saturday, they said 'please note this is optional participation.'

Clearly nobody GAF this week because everybody's back to normal. Even the foot traffic at my job has increased. People: reaffirming that a collective short attention span is one of our biggest flaws

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 02:26:25 PM

The list of essential business in NJ is like a page long.  And on my drive home just now I was surprised to see so many cars on the road.  More than last week which is a bit concerning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Volante99 on March 26, 2020, 03:03:23 PM

Yep. MN stay at home order seems pretty loosey goosey. Restaurants are still doing take out/deliver.
I honestly don’t think much changed with the Governor order

My best friend is a receptionist at a law firm and that’s considered “essential”.

I’ve been working from home the past two weeks (I work in E-comm) and our business is losing about $100k per day because of lost sales. Ouch. And that’s BEFORE we had to completely shut down order fulfillment starting Friday with the shut down order.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 26, 2020, 03:29:01 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 26, 2020, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 26, 2020, 01:58:46 PM

Guess who works for an essential business?

Everyone? Cuz that's what it seems like here in Minnesota. I swear I don't know a single person who's not considered essential.

Here in NY the only businesses that seem affected are clothing stores and some electronic stores. Everything else is opened.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

The whole idea of "essential" is so open-ended that it's basically useless.  It's because Americans would never stand for a complete and proper shutdown as in Italy and other countries.  Over there, the government orders you to stay home, and cops will bust you if you're out.  Here, yeah we really would like the whole Coronavirus thing to go away, but a total lockdown would be so inconvenient, so we half-ass it.  The result will be that we take 10 times as long to beat it, if we ever do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 03:45:34 PM

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

The whole idea of "essential" is so open-ended that it's basically useless.  It's because Americans would never stand for a complete and proper shutdown as in Italy and other countries.  Over there, the government orders you to stay home, and cops will bust you if you're out.  Here, yeah we really would like the whole Coronavirus thing to go away, but a total lockdown would be so inconvenient, so we half-ass it.  The result will be that we take 10 times as long to beat it, if we ever do.

If things continue to get worse (which is expected), it needs to happen in the US.  Part of me feels like this is all part of the plan though, a slow cut down on things until we get to the point of everything stops.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 26, 2020, 03:47:48 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 03:45:34 PM

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

The whole idea of "essential" is so open-ended that it's basically useless.  It's because Americans would never stand for a complete and proper shutdown as in Italy and other countries.  Over there, the government orders you to stay home, and cops will bust you if you're out.  Here, yeah we really would like the whole Coronavirus thing to go away, but a total lockdown would be so inconvenient, so we half-ass it.  The result will be that we take 10 times as long to beat it, if we ever do.

If things continue to get worse (which is expected), it needs to happen in the US.  Part of me feels like this is all part of the plan though, a slow cut down on things until we get to the point of everything stops.

I don't think it'll even happen. Not until people drop like flies everywhere. Especially out in rural counties and fully rural states, there's no way those people are going to just go "oh okay" and stop. Americans just don't give up, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 03:51:19 PM

It's a fine line, because so many things truly are essential - everything connected to the supply chain of food; production and delivery of utilities; waste collection; Insurance providers; call centres for pretty much everything; government services and support; internet providers; healthcare; emergency services (fire, police, ambulatory); IT departments of every industry trying to stay operational; banking infrastructure; many manufacturing and distribution companies connected to any/all of the above (especially, healthcare); tow trucks/mechanics.

Seems like 1/2 the fuckin world really is essential.  And then when 1/2 of the other 1/2 that isn't, acts like they are or should be ... well, we don't really change much, do we?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 03:56:27 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 26, 2020, 03:47:48 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 03:45:34 PM

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

The whole idea of "essential" is so open-ended that it's basically useless.  It's because Americans would never stand for a complete and proper shutdown as in Italy and other countries.  Over there, the government orders you to stay home, and cops will bust you if you're out.  Here, yeah we really would like the whole Coronavirus thing to go away, but a total lockdown would be so inconvenient, so we half-ass it.  The result will be that we take 10 times as long to beat it, if we ever do.

If things continue to get worse (which is expected), it needs to happen in the US.  Part of me feels like this is all part of the plan though, a slow cut down on things until we get to the point of everything stops.

I don't think it'll even happen. Not until people drop like flies everywhere. Especially out in rural counties and fully rural states, there's no way those people are going to just go "oh okay" and stop. Americans just don't give up, man.

I doubt Trump would do that on a national scale, but I can see NY for example doubling down on staying home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 26, 2020, 03:58:43 PM

Quote from: Orbert on March 26, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

The whole idea of "essential" is so open-ended that it's basically useless.  It's because Americans would never stand for a complete and proper shutdown as in Italy and other countries.  Over there, the government orders you to stay home, and cops will bust you if you're out.  Here, yeah we really would like the whole Coronavirus thing to go away, but a total lockdown would be so inconvenient, so we half-ass it.  The result will be that we take 10 times as long to beat it, if we ever do.

I wish it were like you said over here (Italy). We took almost a month and a plethora of increasingly strict governmental acts before reaching total lockdown. And still right now, while people - and doctors -  are literally dropping like flies, factories won't close, exceptions become rules, and the south of the country (where hospitals are fifty years behind acceptable) is still basically ignoring instructions. The "logic" is the same everywhere: "I'm young and healthy, my area is low density, I can manage".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on March 26, 2020, 04:56:36 PM

Working from home for a month and have a temporary set up in my granddaughters room when she stays with us.  She asked my wife why my office could not be in our bedroom.  Five year old kids are so honest.

After staying home a month, I asked my boss to try and convince the Controller to let us work from home 3 days a week. The commute is awful and we have the technology.  Let us use it!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 26, 2020, 05:34:28 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 03:45:34 PM

If things continue to get worse (which is expected), it needs to happen in the US.  Part of me feels like this is all part of the plan though, a slow cut down on things until we get to the point of everything stops.

What is everything though? Should grocery stores close? Do we start growing our own crops?

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 02:26:25 PM

The list of essential business in NJ is like a page long. 

1 page? Pfft ours is 14.

https://1y4yclbm79aqghpm1xoezrdw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/FINAL-WA-Essential-Critical-Infrastructure-Workers-03.23.2020.pdf

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 26, 2020, 05:36:48 PM

I'm really surprised how loosely it's being taken elsewhere. Here in the SF Bay Area, it's grocery, mail, pet, gas, mechanic, drug, hardware and other related stuff, and utilities and such. Walmart and Target sneak by because groceries. All the starbucks are either closed or drive through only (except the ones at grocery stores which is odd). Rush hour traffic looks like a Sunday afternoon, it's quite disturbing tbh. As soon as we can get the morons to stop congregating on beaches and stuff, we should be good.


Coyotes were spotted on the streets of San Francisco...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETxuKe8WAAAgXuX?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 26, 2020, 05:38:10 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 26, 2020, 05:34:28 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 03:45:34 PM

If things continue to get worse (which is expected), it needs to happen in the US.  Part of me feels like this is all part of the plan though, a slow cut down on things until we get to the point of everything stops.

What is everything though? Should grocery stores close? Do we start growing our own crops?

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 02:26:25 PM

The list of essential business in NJ is like a page long. 

1 page? Pfft ours is 14.

https://1y4yclbm79aqghpm1xoezrdw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/FINAL-WA-Essential-Critical-Infrastructure-Workers-03.23.2020.pdf

So out of curiosity, using that document as an example, what jobs on that list does people think would be deemed non-essential? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 05:44:08 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 26, 2020, 05:34:28 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 03:45:34 PM

If things continue to get worse (which is expected), it needs to happen in the US.  Part of me feels like this is all part of the plan though, a slow cut down on things until we get to the point of everything stops.

What is everything though? Should grocery stores close? Do we start growing our own crops?

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2020, 02:26:25 PM

The list of essential business in NJ is like a page long. 

1 page? Pfft ours is 14.

https://1y4yclbm79aqghpm1xoezrdw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/FINAL-WA-Essential-Critical-Infrastructure-Workers-03.23.2020.pdf

 :lol I don't expect EVERYTHING to shut down, but I could see where cops are out and about making sure people aren't lingering around.  If the Mayor of NYC is taking down basketball nets, the next logical step seems to be to actually enforce people from unnecessarily going out.  Which it seems other parts of the world have done. 

I have a friend who has non stop been sharing videos and talking about being out and about... I keep wondering why?  Just go home, he's got no work now but just stay home instead of driving around going to stores and different parks.  I think some people have a real hard time just sitting still, I get it, we are a country half with ADD.  Including myself, I'm glad I've been getting to go out to work and leave my house, but I am trying really hard not to make unnecessary trips and it must be 100x harder for people with family or living with others. 

also, that coyote is awesome but my same friend shared the huge drive through line at the starbucks.  I get it that it's social distancing by everyone using the drive through and I'm sure the worker is being clean with their process but why?  Why are you at starbucks, coffee can be made at home.  This is why I start to feel like it will need to be forced to stay home if things don't get better.  They might and this all might be moot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 26, 2020, 05:47:40 PM

I wasn't attempting to use the list as a commentary, I just thought it insightful to see it was spelled out in detail (for my state)*. I would really like to see the numbers of employees who qualify under each line item and then determine what percentage it is of all the employed people of the state.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 26, 2020, 06:46:48 PM

This came in the mail today. This is not a joke (though I have no agenda in posting it; I just thought it was interesting):

(https://i.imgur.com/aQJejfG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/MDBmvkZ.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2020, 07:37:11 PM

I was fully expecting it to say something along the lines of "go to church on Easter", or "be ready to return to work in mid-April.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 26, 2020, 08:19:42 PM

So I was watching this video...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/lifestyle/why-experts-say-healthy-people-should-stop-wearing-masks/vi-BB11I73k


How does everyone feel about wearing a mask in public?


A lot of people in the store are wearing one. One question I have is where are they getting them?


The experts seem to side on masks don't really protect you from getting a virus, but may help stop the spread if you're infected. I try and steer clear of everyone in the store when at all possible, but I view people that are wearing a mask as HAVING IT, and I steer way clear of them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 26, 2020, 08:50:20 PM

I'd wear a mask if I had a supply already and had to go out.  It's pretty clear that wearing a mask does help if you don't act like it's suddenly made you invincible.  It reduces the risk, it doesn't eliminate it, so you still have to wash your hands and try not to get too close to other people.

But since we don't have enough, I'm not going to try to get some now.  Health care workers need whatever stock we have.  Maybe one day when all this is over, I'll try to get some for future pandemics.

We should probably start manufacturing more of them to increase that stock pile and have enough for civilians too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 26, 2020, 08:57:55 PM

I've seen people wearing scarves, bandanas, pulled up turtle necks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 26, 2020, 09:13:56 PM

We have plenty of respirators and particle masks at the shop. I took a couple for home use in the event that the fan gets ruined (props to Stadler for that wonderful turn of phrase).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 26, 2020, 09:41:01 PM

I never thought I would be a "Mask Wearer" but a co-worker gave me one of his N95s today, he had some extra and thought I might be doing some attic work. Turned out I didn't so I have a brand new mask to keep at my side.

And yes, I am adding the ruined fan phrase to my repertoire.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 26, 2020, 09:45:16 PM

You know what's weird?  I bought a big box of N95 masks over a year ago when my step son and wife were going to clean out the garage (there had been some animals in there, so I bought something better than standard dust masks)....and then we forgot that we had only used a couple.   So I have nearly a full big box.   

I thought about donating them, but then someone said that since the box is open and the wrapper is undone, I can't.   So I guess I'm the proud owner of some extras. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 27, 2020, 05:40:58 AM

So... Boris Johnson, UK prime minister, who had some days ago the idea of "let everyone get the virus, we'll develop herd immunity"..... tested positive for Covid-19.

Whopsie.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 27, 2020, 07:29:40 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 27, 2020, 05:40:58 AM

So... Boris Johnson, UK prime minister, who had some days ago the idea of "let everyone get the virus, we'll develop herd immunity"..... tested positive for Covid-19.

Whopsie.

“I’m shaking hands continuously. I was at a hospital the other night where I think there were actually a few coronavirus patients and I shook hands with everybody, you’ll be pleased to know. I continue to shake hands." - Boris Johnson, 3rd March

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 27, 2020, 08:19:38 AM

First major world leader.  Frankly, I'm shocked - I thought Trudeau or Trump would be first.  Looks like JT dodged catching it from his wife though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on March 27, 2020, 08:31:17 AM

67 new cases in Finland today, which brings the total to 1025. This is the least new cases since last Friday, so the curve has an increasingly flattening trend. Seven people have died, almost all of them in the most affected region.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 27, 2020, 08:34:45 AM

Today here in Sweden the government just passed a law against public gatherings of more than 50 people. Punishable by either a fine or up to 6 months in prison.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 27, 2020, 08:39:46 AM

Quote from: Zydar on March 27, 2020, 08:34:45 AM

Today here in Sweden the government just passed a law against public gatherings of more than 50 people. Punishable by either a fine or up to 6 months in prison.

While I must admit I'm ignorant of the situation in Sweden, I don't understand these half mesaures. 50 people together is a disaster if only a handful of them have the virus. Ok, different situations, different geography, different population density, but I can't see why they think 100 people together is a pandemic recipe, and 50 people together can be safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 27, 2020, 09:57:45 AM

Hospitals in NYC are using refrigerator trucks to store dead bodies now, morgues are full.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2020, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 27, 2020, 09:57:45 AM

Hospitals in NYC are using refrigerator trucks to store dead bodies now, morgues are full.

Really?  I tried to look up some stats and could not quickly find a definitive answer, but when I tried to look up death rates in NY apart from the pandemic, I saw a range of between 200 and 500 deaths in NYC per day.  NY state has 519 total reported from coronavirus for the past couple of months.  How are the morgues suddenly overwhelmed?  That doesn't add up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 27, 2020, 11:30:49 AM

Till Lindemann is reportedly hospitalised in an ICU in Berlin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 27, 2020, 11:42:02 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2020, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 27, 2020, 09:57:45 AM

Hospitals in NYC are using refrigerator trucks to store dead bodies now, morgues are full.

Really?  I tried to look up some stats and could not quickly find a definitive answer, but when I tried to look up death rates in NY apart from the pandemic, I saw a range of between 200 and 500 deaths in NYC per day.  NY state has 519 total reported from coronavirus for the past couple of months.  How are the morgues suddenly overwhelmed?  That doesn't add up.

All those deaths from NY came within then past few weeks, 159 of those coming in the last 2 days.

But this is as a precaution, not because they are full yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/26/us/makeshift-morgues-coronavirus-new-york/index.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 27, 2020, 11:46:43 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 27, 2020, 11:42:02 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2020, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 27, 2020, 09:57:45 AM

Hospitals in NYC are using refrigerator trucks to store dead bodies now, morgues are full.

Really?  I tried to look up some stats and could not quickly find a definitive answer, but when I tried to look up death rates in NY apart from the pandemic, I saw a range of between 200 and 500 deaths in NYC per day.  NY state has 519 total reported from coronavirus for the past couple of months.  How are the morgues suddenly overwhelmed?  That doesn't add up.

All those deaths from NY came within then past few weeks, 159 of those coming in the last 2 days.

But this is as a precaution, not because they are full yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/26/us/makeshift-morgues-coronavirus-new-york/index.html

My comment is based on what people on the ground are saying through friends and family so I don't have official source, but it's specifically this hospital that was mentioned to me:

Quote

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/inside-coronavirus-ground-elmhurst-hospital-york-city/story?id=69804681

and we are talking about a surge here so that's why it's overwhelming, ontop of the normal rate of people dying. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 12:25:51 PM

Looks like we're finally at the finish line.

House passes $2.2T rescue package, rushes it to Trump (https://apnews.com/2099a53bb8adf2def7ee7329ea322f9d)

In addition to the stimulus checks, it appears that state unemployment claims are being boosted $600/week through July. For those of us in CA, that more than doubles the max $450/week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 12:54:45 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 12:25:51 PM

Looks like we're finally at the finish line.

House passes $2.2T rescue package, rushes it to Trump (https://apnews.com/2099a53bb8adf2def7ee7329ea322f9d)

In addition to the stimulus checks, it appears that state unemployment claims are being boosted $600/week through July. For those of us in CA, that more than doubles the max $450/week.

Good deal, now let's see how long it takes CA to process the million unemployment claims it just recieved  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2020, 01:04:52 PM

As a government worker who interacts with several state agencies, I can tell you firsthand that some, like Department of Public Health and EDD are swamped.  But stuff like this is generally being made a priority, so hopefully they can get people their money quickly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 01:10:07 PM

Yup, I filed on the 16th and got my paperwork in the mail yesterday, and it appears I can do everything else online.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 01:10:57 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 01:10:07 PM

Yup, I filed on the 16th and got my paperwork in the mail yesterday, and it appears I can do everything else online.

Did you do your initial filing on line as well?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 01:30:06 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 01:10:57 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 01:10:07 PM

Yup, I filed on the 16th and got my paperwork in the mail yesterday, and it appears I can do everything else online.

Did you do your initial filing on line as well?

Yup, you?

My brother had 4 different contractors to enter and missed the 10pm filing deadline by 4 minutes, so hopefully his packet will arrive in the mail today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 01:33:09 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 01:30:06 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 01:10:57 PM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 01:10:07 PM

Yup, I filed on the 16th and got my paperwork in the mail yesterday, and it appears I can do everything else online.

Did you do your initial filing on line as well?

Yup, you?

My brother had 4 different contractors to enter and missed the 10pm filing deadline by 4 minutes, so hopefully his packet will arrive in the mail today.

Yeah, I did as well. I filed on Friday the 20th, so I can probably expect it late next week I'd imagine. Ten days is actually in the normal wheelhouse for response.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 27, 2020, 01:38:25 PM

I'm very glad unemployment was raised.  I always thought it was too low to begin with.  People should be motivated to find a job as soon as possible, but making them unable to afford their bills and food while they do it turns an already stressful situation into a nightmare.

I'll be honest though, I'm not sure if the "check" everyone is going to get is necessary if you still have your job and haven't had your hours cut.  I fall into this category.  I just don't see a point with that part.

That being said, since I have 7 children, you can guess what my check will look like.

Just as an aside, there was an interesting article on Bloomberg about China's reported deaths.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-27/stacks-of-urns-in-wuhan-prompt-new-questions-of-virus-s-toll

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 27, 2020, 01:59:10 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 27, 2020, 01:38:25 PM

I'll be honest though, I'm not sure if the "check" everyone is going to get is necessary if you still have your job and haven't had your hours cut.  I fall into this category.  I just don't see a point with that part.

That being said, since I have 7 children, you can guess what my check will look like.

I haven't seen to much about it, but the articles I've read mention that stimulus checks are being described as "technically an advance on 2020 tax refunds," or something of that sort.  I'm thinking that we'll all likely owe the government the money back in a year when we file our 2020 taxes, assuming that's true. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 27, 2020, 02:03:13 PM

Quote from: Grappler on March 27, 2020, 01:59:10 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on March 27, 2020, 01:38:25 PM

I'll be honest though, I'm not sure if the "check" everyone is going to get is necessary if you still have your job and haven't had your hours cut.  I fall into this category.  I just don't see a point with that part.

That being said, since I have 7 children, you can guess what my check will look like.

I haven't seen to much about it, but the articles I've read mention that stimulus checks are being described as "technically an advance on 2020 tax refunds," or something of that sort.  I'm thinking that we'll all likely owe the government the money back in a year when we file our 2020 taxes, assuming that's true.

Question for those that knows more about taxes.  Would people that gets these checks get a tax form at the start of 2021 to document this stimulus to report for the 2020 taxes?  Just checking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 27, 2020, 02:06:13 PM

That's kind of BS if they try to take it back later, so to speak. Did they do the same with stimulus checks sent out after 9/11 and in '08?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 27, 2020, 02:07:21 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on March 27, 2020, 02:06:13 PM

That's kind of BS if they try to take it back later, so to speak. Did they do the same with stimulus checks sent out after 9/11 and in '08?

I honestly don't know about ANY of this, but it wouldn't totally shock me if the checks are being considered something like no interest loans. We get them now, pay them back next tax season, no interest paid on them. I'd not be a fan, but it wouldn't shock me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 27, 2020, 02:16:32 PM

Take this as you will. I remain skeptical, but this sounds nice.

Any money you receive will not be considered taxable as the IRS considers it a credit, or money you’ve already paid that they’re giving back to you.

One bright spot for taxpayers: If your income was low in 2019, but high in 2020, your stimulus tax rebate won’t be clawed back when you file next year, according to Levine.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/27/stimulus-paychecks-are-on-their-way-but-kinks-are-expected-for-some.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 27, 2020, 02:32:36 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 27, 2020, 02:16:32 PM

Take this as you will. I remain skeptical, but this sounds nice.

Any money you receive will not be considered taxable as the IRS considers it a credit, or money you’ve already paid that they’re giving back to you.

One bright spot for taxpayers: If your income was low in 2019, but high in 2020, your stimulus tax rebate won’t be clawed back when you file next year, according to Levine.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/27/stimulus-paychecks-are-on-their-way-but-kinks-are-expected-for-some.html

From what I've read, this sounds more correct to me.  And I hope this is the case otherwise it would be a giant middle finger to the general citizen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 27, 2020, 02:41:44 PM

What's everyone going to do with their money?

I'm going to stick it in savings until all of this blows over just in case I lose my job somewhere along the line. Then it will likely go into my vacation fund.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 27, 2020, 02:43:25 PM

Hookers and blow. Obviously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 02:55:29 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 27, 2020, 02:43:25 PM

Hookers and blow. Obviously.

I'm in recovery, so twice the hookers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 27, 2020, 02:57:15 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 02:55:29 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 27, 2020, 02:43:25 PM

Hookers and blow. Obviously.

I'm in recovery, so twice the hookers.

I'm married, so twice the blow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 27, 2020, 02:59:49 PM

 :lol

I am planning on puting in a new heating and air system into my old rickity house, so it will go towards that.  And if there's some left over, Ill hold onto it for Christmas.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 27, 2020, 03:28:57 PM

I just got my tax return, so between that and the stimulus check, I'm paying off my credit card, buying a new TV but not spending a lot, then putting the rest into savings for home shopping  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 27, 2020, 03:34:41 PM

Savings. I honestly don’t have a need for it right now so rather save it in case things get worse in the coming weeks/months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on March 27, 2020, 03:40:31 PM

Do you guys believe in 3-mo emergency savings, 6-mo, or 12-mo?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 27, 2020, 03:44:15 PM

Quote from: H2 on March 27, 2020, 03:40:31 PM

Do you guys believe in 3-mo emergency savings, 6-mo, or 12-mo?

"Believe in it" or "have it"?  :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2020, 03:49:35 PM

Quote from: H2 on March 27, 2020, 03:40:31 PM

Do you guys believe in 3-mo emergency savings, 6-mo, or 12-mo?

Anyone who does not is extremely foolish with their money.  Hopefully, a lot of people have a wakeup call about how to manage their finances from this if they cannot survive a few months off and the need comes for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 27, 2020, 03:52:37 PM

I think that's a bit extreme bosk. Not having 3 months of supplies makes someone extremely foolish with money? Ehh... Stocking up for a few weeks is a good idea when you can do it but 3 months is a bit unordinary imo. I'm sure plenty will be doing just that now, though.

Edit: my bad, the question is BELIEVING IN the ideas. Carry on.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 27, 2020, 03:53:03 PM

I've got 6, and usually see 3-6 months recommended by my coworkers, especially given the cyclical nature of construction.

How many folks are considering throwing any potential surplus UI into the market? Given that I'm not working/contributing to my retirement, and everything is currently at discount prices, how would you approach the volatility?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 27, 2020, 03:54:38 PM

I think they were talking about money/savings, Katt. Not supplies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 27, 2020, 04:14:23 PM

As someone who used to tend bar, I feel bad for restaurant workers and people in that industry, many of whom do not work paycheck to paycheck; they work shift to shift. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 27, 2020, 04:16:34 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 27, 2020, 02:57:15 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 27, 2020, 02:55:29 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 27, 2020, 02:43:25 PM

Hookers and blow. Obviously.

I'm in recovery, so twice the hookers.

I'm married, so twice the blow.

So, TWO Winger albums?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 27, 2020, 04:21:43 PM

Quote from: Podaar on March 27, 2020, 03:54:38 PM

I think they were talking about money/savings, Katt. Not supplies.

Yup, my bad. End of the work week skimming  :facepalm: :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 27, 2020, 04:26:58 PM

Quote from: Podaar on March 27, 2020, 03:54:38 PM

I think they were talking about money/savings, Katt. Not supplies.

He's the only one that has 2 month supplies of shampoo and conditioner.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 27, 2020, 04:33:07 PM

That should be a joke but I have 6 different kinds of shampoo and conditioner in my bathroom right now and most of them I bought at LEAST 4-6 months ago. Not counting the beard and other hygiene stuff. There was a bottle I brought to ProgPower that I bought 2 months before that, and I only finished it a couple weeks ago. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 27, 2020, 04:35:56 PM

Yeah, you're right. It SHOULD be a joke. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2020, 04:43:53 PM

:lol  Yeah, 3-6 month emergency fund, not 3-6 months of supplies.  Or, as many of our grandparents or great-grandparents would say, "saving for a rainy day."  The point being, if you lose your job or face some other disaster, having enough money to live on for 3-6 months to get back on your feet. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 27, 2020, 04:52:48 PM

Pfft.  My haircare product supply will last me my lifetime.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 27, 2020, 05:09:38 PM

Lisa will have to buzz me. I hope i can get bandaids and ointment then.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 27, 2020, 05:25:23 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2020, 04:43:53 PM

:lol  Yeah, 3-6 month emergency fund, not 3-6 months of supplies.  Or, as many of our grandparents or great-grandparents would say, "saving for a rainy day."  The point being, if you lose your job or face some other disaster, having enough money to live on for 3-6 months to get back on your feet.

I'd love to be able to have a 3-6 month emergency fund. Maybe not possible for a post-doc in New York. I have maybe 1-2 months if everything goes to hell, but that's it.

Hopefully once I get a real job that pays well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 27, 2020, 07:22:48 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 27, 2020, 05:09:38 PM

Lisa will have to buzz me. I hope i can get bandaids and ointment then.  :lol

I thought we were talking about hair.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 27, 2020, 07:44:47 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 27, 2020, 07:22:48 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 27, 2020, 05:09:38 PM

Lisa will have to buzz me. I hope i can get bandaids and ointment then.  :lol

I thought we were talking about hair.

Unfortunately,  we are talking about hair.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on March 27, 2020, 08:53:03 PM

I'll be putting me check right into the stock market, assuming it comes before any huge surge back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 27, 2020, 09:47:27 PM

Our checks will probably replenish some savings that will be dipped into (it's not a lot to dip into) and just go towards living expenses. I've got unemployment coming soon (hopefully soon that is), but my other half has lost some income. It'll be nice to not feel like we're drowning lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on March 27, 2020, 09:55:54 PM

My wife’s retirement took a big hit the last recession and it took a few years to get back to the original principle.  I told her to sit down when she gets the end of quarter statements.  Hopefully it will not take too long to come back.

Also, King my wife gives my hair a number one buzz every month and no blood yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 27, 2020, 10:13:25 PM

Quote from: Nick on March 27, 2020, 08:53:03 PM

I'll be putting me check right into the stock market, assuming it comes before any huge surge back.

I'm putting all of mine into Ford

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ruba on March 28, 2020, 06:11:47 AM

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 27, 2020, 11:30:49 AM

Till Lindemann is reportedly hospitalised in an ICU in Berlin.

However, he tested negative for covid-19 and has been released from ICU. Apparently he has pneumonia.

https://metalinjection.net/news/rammstein-releases-statement-on-vocalist-till-lindemann-says-he-does-not-have-coronavirus

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/updated_rammstein_frontman_confirms_spending_night_in_intensive_care_says_he_tested_negative_for_coronavirus.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 28, 2020, 06:44:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 27, 2020, 04:52:48 PM

Pfft.  My haircare product supply will last me my lifetime.

:neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 28, 2020, 12:01:07 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 24, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on March 19, 2020, 07:59:16 AM

A DT fan came to a preshow I was hosting in Baltimore a couple of years ago.  He ended up helping me big time, we became friends, and together hosted the recent preshows in DC in April (over 80 attendees) and Baltimore in October (over 50 attendees).  If anyone here attended, he was the bearded guy with the skulls. :D

Last night, him and his wife took their two year old daughter to the E.R., because she had a 104.7 temperature.  From his Fbook

Coronavirus screening was in being done at Carroll County Hospital, before we even walked in the door. We were asked questions about travel and symptoms. Also, w visitation/escort procedures had been altered- my wife had to go back with her alone while I waited in the car.  My daughter's fever was brought down with Motrin and Tylenol, and she is currently OK.

She tested negative for the Flu and RSV.

Since fever is a symptom of COVID-19, it is a possibility. But my daughter could not be tested for it because the doctor said they are only testing critical patients, because there aren't enough test kits yet. He recommended we self quarantine for 14 days, and we will.

Downright scary, as most people who get COVID-19 will not be critical. We should be doing more testing. The quarantine is just a recommendation. I am sure some people won't follow if they have the same experience.

Quoting my own post from a few days back.  Well, my friend's daughter became worse yesterday, they took her back to the hospital, they finally tested her, but won't know the results for days.  And yet again, the friend and his wife didn't get tested, because there are not enough kits.

https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2020/03/24/coronavirus-test-shortage-latest/

Nicholas' daughter's test came back negative an hour ago!

"She is healthy now, about 48 hours since her last fever. Doctor said it must have been some other virus for her fever to last that long while on antibiotics.
It sure was scary to go though all this during a pandemic. A 104.7 fever out of nowhere would have been scary during normal times.Now to continue to self isolate.
Any of us could still get it. At least every time she coughs a little now I don't worry quite as much. Also, we are relieved we didnt unintentionally spread it around before she became symptomatic."

She was tested on the 24th.  This also shows how overloaded Maryland's testing is at this time, as to the number of days it took to receive the negative results. 
(just wish I could visit them and hug them all, but......)

And I think back to when I was an assistant maintenance supervisor at Johns Hopkins for four years.  The SARS scare was stressful enough, as well as dealing with all the aspergillus (ceiling mold) room cleanouts we had to do...so I cannot envision what working life is and will be there.

I feel for anyone going in for dialysis, chemo, etc.  with the surrounding fears.  And anyone who has a relative in a nursing home.  Our friend has not seen her husband in two plus weeks now.

889 deaths in Italy, 674 in Spain, the USA ...well... no need to type further....     https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 28, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Without getting way off track here, I half-heartedly wish there was some way banks could restrict peoples' discretionary spending until they accrued at least 3 months of cash in reserves. Totally goes against my principles, but so many people aren't prepared for financial emergencies.

Having spent periods of my life where I got by on family generosity, cash advances from my CC, and a personal loan, and never having a solid career, I would ideally have 12 months cash in reserves. Doing a quick numbers check, if we really tightened our belts, we are at about 12 months. My wife thinks that is silly, but she has a well-paying union job that will never be in jeopardy, and has never faced any financial difficulty or shortcomings.

Fortunately we will not need to rely on this stimulus payment at this time so it might all get invested.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 28, 2020, 12:45:35 PM

The greed of capitalism has escalated.  $4+ for Starbucks coffees; $250 for concert tickets; triple digits for sporting event tickets.  We buy for and pay for things that we really shouldn't.  I think far too many things that should be luxuries are viewed as necessities by many.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 28, 2020, 12:50:25 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 28, 2020, 12:45:35 PM

I think far too many things that should be luxuries are viewed as necessities by many.

True dat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 28, 2020, 12:53:26 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 28, 2020, 12:50:25 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 28, 2020, 12:45:35 PM

I think far too many things that should be luxuries are viewed as necessities by many.

True dat.

Yup.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 28, 2020, 01:45:58 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 28, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Without getting way off track here, I half-heartedly wish there was some way banks could restrict peoples' discretionary spending until they accrued at least 3 months of cash in reserves. Totally goes against my principles, but so many people aren't prepared for financial emergencies.

Having spent periods of my life where I got by on family generosity, cash advances from my CC, and a personal loan, and never having a solid career, I would ideally have 12 months cash in reserves. Doing a quick numbers check, if we really tightened our belts, we are at about 12 months. My wife thinks that is silly, but she has a well-paying union job that will never be in jeopardy, and has never faced any financial difficulty or shortcomings.

Fortunately we will not need to rely on this stimulus payment at this time so it might all get invested.

Yeah, it's pretty sad that something like 75% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. Granted, it's difficult for the really low income people to manage to save, but the majority of Americans should be able to have a few months of bare bones spending in savings. We're thankfully sitting on about 5 months of regular spending, and could easily stretch that out a few months more by cutting back. Heck, if I had to collect unemployment, we'd probably be able to live completely off the 60%, or whatever it is, of my regular pay. A disturbing amount of Americans are spending more than 100% of their income on a monthly basis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on March 28, 2020, 02:48:24 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 28, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Without getting way off track here, I half-heartedly wish there was some way banks could restrict peoples' discretionary spending until they accrued at least 3 months of cash in reserves. Totally goes against my principles, but so many people aren't prepared for financial emergencies.

At the risk of taking it further off track, I'd whole-heartedly sign up for this if businesses had to do the same :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 28, 2020, 02:54:26 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 28, 2020, 03:08:34 PM

I simply couldn't imagine living week to week.  Some of my workers I know do and this situation of them getting stood down is hitting them very hard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 28, 2020, 04:40:27 PM

Quote from: wolfking on March 28, 2020, 03:08:34 PM

I simply couldn't imagine living week to week.

Me either. I wouldn't be able sleep at night.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 28, 2020, 11:56:39 PM

Posted this on Facebook, but since I am not Facebook friends with a lot of you, I will re-post here: 

A dear friend of ours who is a nurse is helping fundraise to get more PPE supplied for medical personnel in our area. They were able to raise $1000 in cash and are planning to buy simple masks. But they need money for plastic to make face shields to order them as well. Anyone interested in helping can donate at their GoFundMe page:  https://www.gofundme.com/f/face-mask-makers-with-love

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on March 29, 2020, 12:21:49 AM

Stay at home order in Minnesota Day #1. I think I saw the same amount of cars out and about today :lol

Today was the first day at our store where it was calm. I managed to cut my usual 12 hour day I've been working 6 days a week for the past two weeks into a 9 hour day. Managed to get a lot done that I've been neglecting the past few weeks--my produce section has been falling apart. It'll be interesting to see where the next week takes us. I don't think we'll be crazy like we've been, but I think it's going to be quite steady.

I'm still amazed at how people still aren't paying attention to covering their cough. This lady yesterday had a basket in her hand and was looking at my three tiered basket of bagged baby red and gold potatoes. Just stands there and without covering her mouth just coughs multiple times--no cover. I looked at her, walked over and said "Ma'am, you need to cover your mouth when you cough" I grabbed a pair of gloves, grabbed the potatoes out of the basket and threw them in an empty box I had nearby. Brought the rack outside and just doused it with disinfectant. When she finished shopping, I grabbed her basket and brought it outside and did the same thing. I don't mean to make her feel bad, but it absolutely disgusts me that people are still open mouth coughing and coughing into their hands.

Also, thanks for the Corn Huskers Hand Lotion recommendation, lonestar and Kattlekox. I ordered some and it should be here next week. My hands are all cut up and raw, I'm hoping it helps

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 29, 2020, 04:39:19 AM

Quote from: SystematicThought on March 29, 2020, 12:21:49 AM

Stay at home order in Minnesota Day #1. I think I saw the same amount of cars out and about today :lol

I thought it was quite a bit less than it has been in my neighborhood. I went for a walk for about 30 minutes and only recall seeing one vehicle the whole time and only a couple dog walkers. Hopefully people will take it seriously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 28, 2020, 12:45:35 PM

The greed of capitalism has escalated.  $4+ for Starbucks coffees; $250 for concert tickets; triple digits for sporting event tickets.  We buy for and pay for things that we really shouldn't.  I think far too many things that should be luxuries are viewed as necessities by many.

The USA is the greatest country on Earth because of one thing, Capitalism.  You’re fortunate enough to have the option to buy a cup of Starbucks or attend a concert.  People here and across the globe are willing to pay $4 for a cup of Starbucks.  That’s the going price.  If you feel like it’s too much do what I do and make your own cup of Joe for pennies per cup.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on March 29, 2020, 08:36:54 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

what the hell does this even mean? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 29, 2020, 08:40:37 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 29, 2020, 08:36:54 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

what the hell does this even mean? :lol

I think it means that if you were to rank every country on earth by greatness, The USA would be number one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 29, 2020, 08:44:33 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 29, 2020, 08:40:37 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 29, 2020, 08:36:54 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

what the hell does this even mean? :lol

I think it means that if you were to rank every country on earth by greatness, The USA would be number one.

Haha, yeah, not sure how the meaning of that is unclear. :lol :lol :lol

I don't want to sit here and litigate what country is the best in the world (which is essentially a prick-waving contest), but for as much wrong as we have in our country right now, there are still millions trying to come here to make it their home.  Is there any other country in the world where that happens with the same kind of volume?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 29, 2020, 08:47:38 AM

 :rollin Why do I have a sudden urge to post Jeff Daniels / The Newsroom right now?

Just because one is WILLING to pay for something, doesn’t mean theY CAN or SHOULD.

But, this is headed towards a discussion better suited in P/R

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 29, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

^{[citation needed]}

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 29, 2020, 08:50:02 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 29, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

^{[citation needed]}

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2020, 08:55:13 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 29, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

^{[citation needed]}

Brilliant. Seriously. I fell over laughing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 29, 2020, 09:01:34 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 29, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

^{[citation needed]}

:clap:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on March 29, 2020, 09:05:32 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 29, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

^{[citation needed]}

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 29, 2020, 09:18:23 AM

Quote from: millahh on March 29, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

^{[citation needed]}
[/quote}


 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Train of Naught on March 29, 2020, 10:23:49 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

sig'd :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 29, 2020, 10:39:15 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 29, 2020, 08:40:37 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 29, 2020, 08:36:54 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

what the hell does this even mean? :lol

I think it means that if you were to rank every country on earth by greatness, The USA would be number one.

Well we're certainly #1 in total and new Covid-19 cases.

Oh, and millahh :clap:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 29, 2020, 10:51:59 AM

At this rate, NY alone is going to surpass China in total cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 29, 2020, 11:03:15 AM

Spain will surpass China in total cases tomorrow, and Italy is 1 or 2 days away from 100K. 3, if something starts to improve.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 29, 2020, 11:06:38 AM

Are we at the point now where we really need to be legit discussing locking down major cities? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 29, 2020, 11:10:01 AM

Damn, NY is just getting fucking hammered.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 11:26:14 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 29, 2020, 08:36:54 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

what the hell does this even mean? :lol

If I need to explain the meaning of this, you should consider contacting your local school officials and asking for a refund.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2020, 11:40:18 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 11:26:14 AM

Quote from: Elite on March 29, 2020, 08:36:54 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

what the hell does this even mean? :lol

If I need to explain the meaning of this, you should consider contacting your local school officials and asking for a refund.

That is quite enough of that shit.

This is a forum with many international members. No need for any pseudo-patriotic shenanigans or insults here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 29, 2020, 11:59:05 AM

I'm quite surprised that we have so few deaths from Covid-19 in Sweden.
We had our first death on the 11th of March and have slowly gone up to the current toll of 110
The most deaths were a few days ago, 18 people died in a day but it did not rise as expected. Today we had 8 new deaths.

Hopefully it can stay like this but probably it will start to rise when people travel around the country for the easter break (against the advice from the authorities).

Myself.... I stay put at home, working from home and avoiding as much contact with others as I can.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 29, 2020, 12:06:30 PM

I saw a tweet a bit ago and can't find it now, but it said something along the lines of "It took one month to go from 1 to 1000 deaths in the US, but only 48 hours to go from 1000 to 2000 deaths."

Cuomo said they expect the apex to be in about 10-14 days, if the cases double every three days or so as we are seeing, that's 1 million confirmed cases at the predicted apex.  Deaths will be over 10k by then as well. 

Now there's talks about a hard shut down of NYC/CT/NJ areas.  Going to get crazy if they start enforcing people to stay at home.  Our NJ governor tweeted about people having "corona parties" wtf is wrong with people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on March 29, 2020, 12:08:57 PM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on March 29, 2020, 11:59:05 AM

I'm quite surprised that we have so few deaths from Covid-19 in Sweden.
We had our first death on the 11th of March and have slowly gone up to the current toll of 110
The most deaths were a few days ago, 18 people died in a day but it did not rise as expected. Today we had 8 new deaths.

Hopefully it can stay like this but probably it will start to rise when people travel around the country for the easter break (against the advice from the authorities).

Myself.... I stay put at home, working from home and avoiding as much contact with others as I can.

Indeed. Given how comparatively lax the measures here are I'm surprised the growth rate is as low as it is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 29, 2020, 03:57:28 PM

Who could have seen this coming? Oh yeah, pretty much everyone.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: home on March 30, 2020, 01:19:00 AM

Quote from: cramx3

Our NJ governor tweeted about people having "corona parties" wtf is wrong with people.

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 29, 2020, 03:57:28 PM

Who could have seen this coming?

Isn't it obvious?

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

The USA is the greatest country on Earth

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 30, 2020, 06:32:29 AM

Quote from: DTinTX on March 29, 2020, 08:12:48 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 28, 2020, 12:45:35 PM

The greed of capitalism has escalated.  $4+ for Starbucks coffees; $250 for concert tickets; triple digits for sporting event tickets.  We buy for and pay for things that we really shouldn't.  I think far too many things that should be luxuries are viewed as necessities by many.

The USA is the greatest country on Earth because of one thing, Capitalism. 

(https://preview.redd.it/aswba4oovbp21.jpg?width=558&auto=webp&s=dad1188c90e747cbbd413b9179018ba0b4338e21)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 30, 2020, 06:33:35 AM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 30, 2020, 06:52:59 AM

Quote from: XJDenton on March 29, 2020, 12:08:57 PM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on March 29, 2020, 11:59:05 AM

I'm quite surprised that we have so few deaths from Covid-19 in Sweden.
We had our first death on the 11th of March and have slowly gone up to the current toll of 110
The most deaths were a few days ago, 18 people died in a day but it did not rise as expected. Today we had 8 new deaths.

Hopefully it can stay like this but probably it will start to rise when people travel around the country for the easter break (against the advice from the authorities).

Myself.... I stay put at home, working from home and avoiding as much contact with others as I can.

Indeed. Given how comparatively lax the measures here are I'm surprised the growth rate is as low as it is.

Well, I guess the shit starts to hit the swedish fan now.... 36 death in the last day

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 30, 2020, 07:03:04 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 27, 2020, 02:41:44 PM

What's everyone going to do with their money?

I'm going to stick it in savings until all of this blows over just in case I lose my job somewhere along the line. Then it will likely go into my vacation fund.

Probably stick into my FX account, i've had a massive return so far so I'll probably just through it in there for more margin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 07:52:29 AM

Re: the total number of cases:

- China lies.  I'm sorry, I know Trump lies and Pelosi lies and Putin lies and The Lady Lies, but China lies. 
- We also have the third largest population on the planet.   Even factoring for what the response SHOULD have been we were going to have cases.  Our mortality rate, though, is NOT number one.  Last I checked - three minutes ago - it was 30 based on percentage of population and 22 based on mortality rate (as a percentage).  This isn't a dick-swinging contest, but since we're taking the opportunity to bash entire countries, I thought a little context was in order.   

Re: the greatest country on earth:
- We also have Kiss, "Archer", Mark Harmon, and hamburgers.  Again, context.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 30, 2020, 07:55:08 AM

Stads, I completely agree with one thing you said, which might have been the crux of your entire point.

Mark Harmon is awesome.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 07:56:11 AM

But you don't have Margot Robbie.  Ergo, Australia #1.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 30, 2020, 07:56:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 07:52:29 AM

Re: the greatest country on earth:
- We also have Kiss, "Archer", Mark Harmon, and hamburgers.  Again, context.

He said 'greatest' not 'worst.' Even the hamburger; order a cheeseburger, you wimp.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 08:02:43 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 07:56:11 AM

But you don't have Margot Robbie.  Ergo, Australia #1.

This is now the second time I got schooled on the "America is great" argument.  Dammit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 30, 2020, 08:05:58 AM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 30, 2020, 08:15:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 07:56:11 AM

But you don't have Margot Robbie.  Ergo, Australia #1.

I believe the proper response to this post is...

Checkmate.

Well played, sir.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 30, 2020, 08:22:28 AM

Meanwhile in Portland.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/portland-strip-club-forced-to-close-so-dancers-now-do-delivery.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 30, 2020, 08:25:12 AM

Quote from: Zydar on March 30, 2020, 08:22:28 AM

Meanwhile in Portland.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/portland-strip-club-forced-to-close-so-dancers-now-do-delivery.html

"Boober Eats." Genius.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 30, 2020, 08:27:26 AM

Quote from: Zydar on March 30, 2020, 08:22:28 AM

Meanwhile in Portland.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/portland-strip-club-forced-to-close-so-dancers-now-do-delivery.html

A man of rare insight and perspicuity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on March 30, 2020, 08:28:20 AM

Quote from: Zydar on March 30, 2020, 08:22:28 AM

Meanwhile in Portland.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/portland-strip-club-forced-to-close-so-dancers-now-do-delivery.html

And suddenly America is #1 country again  :D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 08:36:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 07:52:29 AM

- China lies. 

Yeah, pretty much ever since I started following the numbers, I've disregarded the published numbers for them.  But what I do find intriguing is India's.  Why are they so low?  As jammed together as they are in their cities, if the virus is there (and it is), how are their numbers staying so low?  I'm not saying they are not being honest, but I've been wondering that for quite awhile.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 30, 2020, 08:41:44 AM

Quote from: Zydar on March 30, 2020, 08:22:28 AM

Meanwhile in Portland.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/portland-strip-club-forced-to-close-so-dancers-now-do-delivery.html

See, that's the kind of genius we need lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 30, 2020, 08:42:32 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 08:36:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 07:52:29 AM

- China lies. 

Yeah, pretty much ever since I started following the numbers, I've disregarded the published numbers for them.  But what I do find intriguing is India's.  Why are they so low?  As jammed together as they are in their cities, if the virus is there (and it is), how are their numbers staying so low?  I'm not saying they are not being honest, but I've been wondering that for quite awhile.

You ever had authentic Indian curry? I doubt even COVID19 can survive that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 09:52:16 AM

Boober Eats.  I'm breathless in the face of such creativity. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 30, 2020, 09:57:58 AM

I don't have faith in it what so ever. I bet it goes tits up in a a month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 10:06:06 AM

I'm curious if they'll continue to milk it after the immediate virus emergency passes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 10:06:06 AM

I'm curious if they'll continue to milk it after the immediate virus emergency passes.

Regardless, it's implanted in my memory now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 30, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 10:06:06 AM

I'm curious if they'll continue to milk it after the immediate virus emergency passes.

Regardless, it's implanted in my mammary now.

Fixed.


I hope this thread continues to keep me abreast of this situation.





boobs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 10:21:15 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 30, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 10:06:06 AM

I'm curious if they'll continue to milk it after the immediate virus emergency passes.

Regardless, it's implanted in my mammary now.

Fixed.


I hope this thread continues to keep me abreast of this situation.

As do I.....but I like to juggle between two well filled sources.......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 30, 2020, 10:40:11 AM

All this mention of Boober Eats has me a little hungry for some sweater meat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on March 30, 2020, 10:51:30 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 30, 2020, 08:42:32 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 08:36:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 07:52:29 AM

- China lies. 

Yeah, pretty much ever since I started following the numbers, I've disregarded the published numbers for them.  But what I do find intriguing is India's.  Why are they so low?  As jammed together as they are in their cities, if the virus is there (and it is), how are their numbers staying so low?  I'm not saying they are not being honest, but I've been wondering that for quite awhile.

You ever had authentic Indian curry? I doubt even COVID19 can survive that.

Quote from: Adami on March 30, 2020, 09:57:58 AM

I don't have faith in it what so ever. I bet it goes tits up in a a month.

 :rollin     to these and the others that help this semi confinement bearable.

Maryland under a semi lockdown.  One axe hat over the weekend was arrested after a warning, for holding a party with 60 people.  Meanwhile, a senior citizen home in Carroll County had 66 residents test positive in their 104 bed facility.

But, when giving his press conference today, Governor Hogan's TV ratings numbers didn't approach that of 'The Bachelor' or MNF.........

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 10:57:27 AM

Motorboat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 11:04:49 AM

We are now in week two of full on isolation. I watch my wife at the front window.....gazing aimlessly with tears running down her face. It breaks my heart to see her this way. I have been thinking of things I can do to cheer her up. I've even considered letting her inside.....but rules are rules!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 30, 2020, 11:09:05 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 11:04:49 AM

We are now in week two of full on isolation. I watch my wife at the front window.....gazing aimlessly with tears running down her face. It breaks my heart to see her this way. I have been thinking of things I can do to cheer her up. I've even considered letting her inside.....but rules are rules!!

 :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 30, 2020, 11:17:42 AM

Ha.  Day 15 of working from home/staying home with the kids here - this is the second week of the two-week "mandatory" stay home order from the governor.  We make it to the grocery store 1-3 times per week, depending on what runs out or what the kids eat all of unexpectedly.  Order takeout every 2-3 days.  Otherwise, we're here at home.  When the weather cooperates, we play out in the yard or go for a walk.  Over the weekend, we drove to a local Dog & Suds where you order from the car and they bring it out, like a Sonic).  It was a way to take a drive and get out for an hour and do something fun to eat.

I think I've watched Frozen 2 about 30 times in the last 15 days. 

My wife is having a hard time, constantly thinking about what she would usually be doing at various times during the week and feeling down that we've had to change our lives and cancel things.  It's just out of everyone's control.  We've cancelled our vacation in May.  My daughter's preschool has been off for weeks and will likely not go back for the rest of the semester.  The virus is now entering my suburbs (5-10 known cases), having a nice foothold with over 1,000 cases in Chicago proper and another 1,000 plus in Cook County (which contains and surrounds Chicago).  If it continues to expand locally to me, things will be closing in around us.  It's spreading outward from Chicago now, through the suburbs. 

There have been confirmed cases at local grocery stores and a rumor about one at the McDonald's down the street, though someone else claimed that it was started by an ex employee with a grudge.  Local Facebook groups are now in a panic...what do you expect?  These are the people going to work and being around tons of other people every day.  Every store is going to have employees that test positive. 

We just get through each day to wake up and figure out how to get through the next with our kids.  At least we don't have e-learning schedules from schools to maintain on top of everything else. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 30, 2020, 11:32:25 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 11:04:49 AM

We are now in week two of full on isolation. I watch my wife at the front window.....gazing aimlessly with tears running down her face. It breaks my heart to see her this way. I have been thinking of things I can do to cheer her up. I've even considered letting her inside.....but rules are rules!!

Bravo. That did not go the direction I thought it would.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 30, 2020, 11:40:49 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 10:21:15 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 30, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 10:06:06 AM

I'm curious if they'll continue to milk it after the immediate virus emergency passes.

Regardless, it's implanted in my mammary now.

Fixed.


I hope this thread continues to keep me abreast of this situation.

As do I.....but I like to juggle between two well filled sources.......

Don't stop!  I'm sure we can rack up a few more! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on March 30, 2020, 12:02:08 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 30, 2020, 11:40:49 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 10:21:15 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 30, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 10:06:06 AM

I'm curious if they'll continue to milk it after the immediate virus emergency passes.

Regardless, it's implanted in my mammary now.

Fixed.


I hope this thread continues to keep me abreast of this situation.

As do I.....but I like to juggle between two well filled sources.......

Don't stop!  I'm sure we can rack up a few more!

The joke is now old. Time to nip it in the bud.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 30, 2020, 12:03:33 PM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on March 30, 2020, 12:02:08 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 30, 2020, 11:40:49 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 10:21:15 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 30, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 10:06:06 AM

I'm curious if they'll continue to milk it after the immediate virus emergency passes.

Regardless, it's implanted in my mammary now.

Fixed.


I hope this thread continues to keep me abreast of this situation.

As do I.....but I like to juggle between two well filled sources.......

Don't stop!  I'm sure we can rack up a few more!

The joke is now old. Time to nip it in the bud.

But we have to continue the comedy, it's the breast thing to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 30, 2020, 01:06:51 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 30, 2020, 08:42:32 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 08:36:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 30, 2020, 07:52:29 AM

- China lies. 

Yeah, pretty much ever since I started following the numbers, I've disregarded the published numbers for them.  But what I do find intriguing is India's.  Why are they so low?  As jammed together as they are in their cities, if the virus is there (and it is), how are their numbers staying so low?  I'm not saying they are not being honest, but I've been wondering that for quite awhile.

You ever had authentic Indian curry? I doubt even COVID19 can survive that.

For reals man. That shit will strip paint of metal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 30, 2020, 01:39:52 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 30, 2020, 10:40:11 AM

All this mention of Boober Eats has me a little hungry for some sweater meat.

The fact that this rhymes and was completely glossed over is offensive to me.   I will therefore right this wrong with a haiku

(ahem)

Oh blessed chest fat
Jiggle yon food to my door
Name it Boober Eats

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 30, 2020, 02:10:31 PM

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 02:29:13 PM

50k cases today (and counting).

Wait until this 5 minute test comes out from Abbott and others.  There's going to be 10s of millions of cases worldwide (if China ever starts releasing information).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 02:33:19 PM

Oh, and with Governmental leadership like this, Brazil could become the next 'epicenter'.  This guy makes Trump sound like Fauci.  Obviously, this was a few days ago (given the reference to the US cases/deaths).

Quote

Brazil’s president Jair Bolsonaro has tried to reassure his citizens over the threat of coronavirus by claiming Brazilians can bathe in excrement “and nothing happens”.

As Brazil’s Covid-19 death toll rose to 77, Bolsonaro scotched the idea Latin America’s biggest economy could soon face a situation as severe as the United States, where there have been more than 1,000 deaths and more than 83,000 cases.

“I don’t think it will reach that point,” Bolsonaro told reporters outside the presidential palace in the capital, Brasília.

“Not least because Brazilians need to be studied,” the right-wing populist added.

“They never catch anything. You see some bloke jumping into the sewage, he gets out, has a dive, right? And nothing happens to him.”

Without offering any scientific evidence, Bolsonaro continued: “I think it’s even possible lots of people have already been infected in Brazil, a few weeks or months ago, and have already got the antibodies that help it not to proliferate”

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 30, 2020, 02:38:22 PM

Fuck...  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 30, 2020, 02:47:05 PM

Did he really use the word Bloke or did Ricky Gervais translate it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 02:51:42 PM

Pretty neat interactive map that studied cell phone records and compiled how states/counties are doing with social distancing and travel.


https://www.unacast.com/covid19/social-distancing-scoreboard

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 30, 2020, 03:04:44 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 02:33:19 PM

Oh, and with Governmental leadership like this, Brazil could become the next 'epicenter'.  This guy makes Trump sound like Fauci.  Obviously, this was a few days ago (given the reference to the US cases/deaths).

Quote

Brazil’s president Jair Bolsonaro has tried to reassure his citizens over the threat of coronavirus by claiming Brazilians can bathe in excrement “and nothing happens”.

As Brazil’s Covid-19 death toll rose to 77, Bolsonaro scotched the idea Latin America’s biggest economy could soon face a situation as severe as the United States, where there have been more than 1,000 deaths and more than 83,000 cases.

“I don’t think it will reach that point,” Bolsonaro told reporters outside the presidential palace in the capital, Brasília.

“Not least because Brazilians need to be studied,” the right-wing populist added.

“They never catch anything. You see some bloke jumping into the sewage, he gets out, has a dive, right? And nothing happens to him.”

Without offering any scientific evidence, Bolsonaro continued: “I think it’s even possible lots of people have already been infected in Brazil, a few weeks or months ago, and have already got the antibodies that help it not to proliferate”

This looks like the guy who will unleash the next pandemic on the world.

It's been years that the major causes for pandemics have been identified in aggressive urbanization, which changes the ecosystems and allows wild creatures to come into contact with domestic ones, coupled with overpopulation and poor hygienic standards. That's why they so often rise in Africa and Asia. If someone is gonna wake up something that didn't need to be woken up in the Amazon forest, it's gonna be him (since he looks hell bent on destroying part of its anyway).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 30, 2020, 03:19:10 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 30, 2020, 02:51:42 PM

Pretty neat interactive map that studied cell phone records and compiled how states/counties are doing with social distancing and travel.


https://www.unacast.com/covid19/social-distancing-scoreboard

Neat.  Wyoming giving the big FU to COVID.  Must be a large Brazilian population.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 30, 2020, 03:24:30 PM

Listening to a live speech from the governor of Washington.   He listed several counties...but several counties are now showing between 15-20% positive percentage on all tests. 

That is 3 times as much as previous weeks.

Let that sink in.    Washington (one of, if not the first US state effected) is now testing positive on 15-20% of ALL TESTS.   

I don't know if it's in print on the internet yet, I'm just listening to the speech live.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 03:56:54 PM

???  Why is that surprising?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 30, 2020, 03:58:11 PM

Quote from: jammindude on March 30, 2020, 03:24:30 PM

Listening to a live speech from the governor of Washington.   He listed several counties...but several counties are now showing between 15-20% positive percentage on all tests. 

That is 3 times as much as previous weeks.

Let that sink in.    Washington (one of, if not the first US state effected) is now testing positive on 15-20% of ALL TESTS.   

I don't know if it's in print on the internet yet, I'm just listening to the speech live.

You're going to have to explain that one to me boss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 30, 2020, 04:02:52 PM

Uh...we knew the numbers and percentages would go up due to more aggressive testing than previous weeks.  This was expected.  :justjen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on March 30, 2020, 04:17:12 PM

A 3x jump in percentages in a single week and no one's needle moves even a bit?   

That's baffling to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 30, 2020, 04:31:34 PM

What sort of needle did you have in mind?  Social distancing guidelines extended 30 more days.  Domestic non-essentially travel ban for 14 days.  Some states will require a 14 day self quarantine after entering the state.  Just a few examples.  There's needles moving all over the place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 04:35:32 PM

Still not sure what is surprising about that.  If anything, I am surprised that it is that low.  If people are testing, they presumably think they have it because they are showing symptoms.  I would expect the percentage to be a lot higher.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 30, 2020, 04:36:28 PM

Had more people than ever in the office today. Saw goo gobs of people outside., including large groups of kids at the basketball courts. Everyone thinks this is over, apparently. Welp

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 30, 2020, 05:00:15 PM

Orbert Update:

Our guitarist David is still in the hospital in critical but stable condition, with confirmed COVID-19.  We had a band practice on the 12th, before the official lockdown but after we should have known better.  That was 18 days ago as of this writing, and I have not shown any symptoms.  I'm reasonably sure that I don't have it, or if I do, it is more recent.  I would have shown symptoms by now if I contracted it 18 days ago.

My wife and I have been working from home for a while.  Me since last year, her since January.  We haven't left the house in weeks.  Our son, who is an idiot, also lives with us.  For the first few weeks, he'd still go out sometimes and come right back.  Usually just to pick up something to eat because the food here at home isn't good enough.  He stopped doing that last week some time when he ran out of money, because he has two jobs but is currently furloughed from both because most things are shut down.  He sometimes finds something in the fridge to eat, but has discovered ordering food delivery via credit cards.  Typical young person with no concept of forward thinking.  Yes, I have tried explaining things like reality to him, and no, I have been unsuccessful in convincing him of anything.

I do have this cough, which bothered me and honestly did kinda scare me for a while, but it's not a "dry cough" (which is what all accounts say to watch out for) but whatever the opposite of a dry cough is.  I do hack stuff up.  But that's because I'm home all the time and still have weed, although that won't hold out forever, either.  Switched to primarily edibles last week, and the cough has eased up considerably.  Also, it occurred to me that if I do contract a respiratory infection, having lungs ravaged by smoking may not make a huge difference, but I'm sure it wouldn't help.  I have one gummy left.  I'm saving it.  For what?  I'm not sure.

So... I'm pretty sure I do not have it.  I read just today that there are 29 confirmed cases in my town.  That means (1) we apparently have plenty of tests which I suppose is good, and (2) we probably have a lot more than 29 cases because these are still only the confirmed ones.  Not everyone's showing symptoms yet, and not everyone's being tested yet.

Last week I mentioned that I was actually going to leave the house, just for a walk, but it was snowing outside.  I stayed in.  Yesterday I thought I might take a walk.  It was raining.  Fuck.

Fun times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 30, 2020, 05:36:54 PM

Sometimes I wonder if you/I did get it but your body was able to just combat it and therefor you didn't really get sick besides a bit of a cough.  Like I've been thinking this so much.  After going to three concerts in three different states (Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Center Jersey) in the beginning of March and felt a bit sickly after, but I feel fine and it's been 20 days since my last concert and last really close exposure to lots of people. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on March 30, 2020, 05:40:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 30, 2020, 05:36:54 PM

Sometimes I wonder if you/I did get it but your body was able to just combat it and therefor you didn't really get sick besides a bit of a cough.  Like I've been thinking this so much. After going to three concerts in three different states (Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Center Jersey) in the beginning of March and felt a bit sickly after, but I feel fine and it's been 20 days since my last concert and last really close exposure to lots of people.

I question that as well.  I was in Washington in the last week of February and went to a show in Seattle and a show in Spokane the next day.  I was in Seattle trying to get home on the day, I think, the first passing happened in Seattle due to the virus.  I mean I had a sore throat and some congestion the next week, but nothing out of the ordinary.  The same thing happened to me after my trip to the East Coast last year, but I wasn't as sick this time around than I did last year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 30, 2020, 05:46:25 PM

Doctor's working in the ICUs are being reminded to slow down and ask their patients prior to intubation if they have anything they'd like to say to their families.  Today is National Doctor's Day.  Here's to the doctors who take the time.

(https://i.imgur.com/MWxSuth.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 30, 2020, 06:01:14 PM

Thank you for posting that. Medical professionals are cut from a different cloth than schlubs like me. My mom is a nurse in an ob/gyn clinic. I am worried about her but she reminds me that her clinic is small, and since they have a specific clientele she doesn't interact with as many people as those who work in a hospital. Unfortunately her clients aren't going to stop being pregnant just because they world around them stopped. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on March 30, 2020, 07:48:00 PM

Here in Tennessee the drive thrus and take out are still open. I feel the governor should shut this down for a month. How is your area handling drive thru and take out food?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 30, 2020, 08:49:11 PM

Most are saying April is gonna be the worst and that is in two days...feels like impending doom is coming.

Since I am working from home now, I never leave the house except for the very occasional trip to get takeout food or a few things at the grocery story and a once-a-day drive just to keep a little sanity.  I feel like there's nothing else I can do at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 30, 2020, 09:19:53 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2020, 08:49:11 PM

Most are saying April is gonna be the worst and that is in two days...feels like impending doom is coming.

Since I am working from home now, I never leave the house except for the very occasional trip to get takeout food or a few things at the grocery story and a once-a-day drive just to keep a little sanity.  I feel like there's nothing else I can do at this point.

Except for the work at home thing (laid off), that's gonna be my plan as well. Finished moving today, so I can hunker down except for an essentials trip here and there, and a good hike every couple of days. There's a ton of shit to do around this place, so I'll be pleasantly busy. I really, really don't want this thing, between being 50, a former heavy smoker, a diabetic, and recently on biologic immune meds, I think it'd hit me fairly hard. Checking my temp a few times a day, can't really rely on the cough thing since because of the move, I've been in a cloud of dust for a week and my allergies are on overdrive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 30, 2020, 09:21:32 PM

Quote from: mike099 on March 30, 2020, 07:48:00 PM

How is your area handling drive thru and take out food?

It seems almost universal restaurants are allowed to stay open and offer drive-thru/take-out/delivery. It keeps them from completely shutting down, and with small precautions appears reasonably safe.

Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2020, 08:49:11 PM

I feel like there's nothing else I can do at this point.

That's all most of us can do, my friend.

Found out a co-worker from a past job is on a ventilator. He is mid-30s, fit and healthy, though rumor has it he is HIV+. Righteous dude. We were friends, but not enough to keep in touch after I left that place. As of now, he's the only person I am aware of who has the virus, and it's not looking good for him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on March 30, 2020, 09:37:59 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 30, 2020, 05:36:54 PM

Sometimes I wonder if you/I did get it but your body was able to just combat it and therefor you didn't really get sick besides a bit of a cough.  Like I've been thinking this so much.  After going to three concerts in three different states (Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Center Jersey) in the beginning of March and felt a bit sickly after, but I feel fine and it's been 20 days since my last concert and last really close exposure to lots of people. 

I'm thinking back to February when I flew back from New Orleans and had a sore throat a few days later. Went away, and then a week and a half later came back with a cough and congestion and slight fever. Went away a week later and hasn't come back. I always kinda wonder if I did have it. My mom got sick shortly after I got sick and she had chills/fever and sore throat.

I feel really irresponsible posting that, but the coronavirus wasn't talked about at the level it is now back in February. Louisiana is a hot bed for the virus right now. Maybe I had it back in February, I ended up doing the virtual doctor with my doctor and I was diagnosed with an acute upper respiratory infection (fancy name for cold). There only thing against it was that I had a productive cough, not dry (although sometimes it was just a dry cough).

Quote from: lordxizor on March 29, 2020, 04:39:19 AM

I thought it was quite a bit less than it has been in my neighborhood. I went for a walk for about 30 minutes and only recall seeing one vehicle the whole time and only a couple dog walkers. Hopefully people will take it seriously.

The morning drive in to work this morning around 6:30 felt emptier but there was still quite a bit of traffic for "essential only". But like others have said, Minnesota's stay at home order is pretty damn loose. It's easier to say what isn't essential than what is essential. Still lot's of Sunday drivers in the left lane on my drive home :lol

I did Jimmy John's take out today for dinner which is in the same strip mall as a Chipotle. Man, Chipotle take out is a mess. I pulled into the lot and there are about 15 people just standing in the parking lot, in the middle of the driving lanes, 6 feet apart. A worker opens the door with 6 bags jammed into his hand and starts yelling names and even more confusion occurs as people didn't hear what names he said. It was so weird. Meanwhile, you can just walk into the Jimmy Johns and order your sandwich. I called first to make sure I could come in.

To answer mike099, drive-thrus to me are iffy. I really have no desire to do fast food (except for Jimmy John's) or even really any takeout. Mainly because how are they ordering their food? Is it still as fresh as when life is normal? How do they order when it's not as busy as it used to be and they don't know the demand for each day. We ordered from a Mexican restaurant the other night and I ordered what I always did, never have a problem. The next morning, I had such bad diarrhea (sorry, too much information), and so did my sister in law. It was so weird. We ordered from 2 different restaurants that night and the food wasn't really that good from the other one either compared to what it usually is. Maybe once they find their rhythm, it will be better. For now, I want to support the restaurants, but I'm uneasy about ordering from them right now.

Also, random side thought.

I read a story of a nurse that was talking about the emotional toll of what is happening and how since no one is allowed visitors when they are in the hospital with coronavirus, these people die alone. Usually, the nurse is in the room when they pass on, but there is no family present. She mentioned sometimes FaceTime is used, but still--there isn't a physical presence.

It just really hit me and made me sad. I cried a little at the thought of dying alone from this horrible disease. I thought of myself in the present and being on my deathbed at age 26 with coronavirus. My mom, dad, and brother can't be in the room with me, let alone the hospital. I just can't fathom the thought of being alone as I pass on--I don't want to die alone. I would want my family to be there as a source of comfort as I pass on and I would find it heartbreaking for them, especially as a parent, to know that my son is dying and about to cross over and there is nothing I can do to comfort them and calm their fear they must be experiencing. I don't know if you are comatose when you die from coronavirus, but I just can't imagine. It reminded me of three weeks ago when our Old Dutch driver's uncle passed away. He woke up in the middle of the night, they presume with really bad heartburn or something. He went to the bathroom because he obviously knew something was wrong, he died just as he went into the bathroom from cardiac arrest. Our driver said that he can't imagine the fear he experienced in his final minutes, knowing something was wrong.

I just can't imagine the fear before being intubated or the fear before dying from this. It's just awful what's going on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Volante99 on March 30, 2020, 11:23:56 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 04:35:32 PM

Still not sure what is surprising about that.  If anything, I am surprised that it is that low.  If people are testing, they presumably think they have it because they are showing symptoms.  I would expect the percentage to be a lot higher.

This is what currently has me baffled. If the virus is so widespread and the infection rate is conservatively 5-10x higher than what’s being reported, why are we only getting a 5-10% positive rate on tests. In my state we’re only testing those with severe symptoms. I can’t reconcile this besides the fact that positive testing on those with symptoms will always be a lagging indicator. It is a bit concerning though, that this could mean we haven’t even seen the tip of the iceberg (NYC not withstanding).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 31, 2020, 05:38:59 AM

Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2020, 11:23:56 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 30, 2020, 04:35:32 PM

Still not sure what is surprising about that.  If anything, I am surprised that it is that low.  If people are testing, they presumably think they have it because they are showing symptoms.  I would expect the percentage to be a lot higher.

This is what currently has me baffled. If the virus is so widespread and the infection rate is conservatively 5-10x higher than what’s being reported, why are we only getting a 5-10% positive rate on tests. In my state we’re only testing those with severe symptoms. I can’t reconcile this besides the fact that positive testing on those with symptoms will always be a lagging indicator. It is a bit concerning though, that this could mean we haven’t even seen the tip of the iceberg (NYC not withstanding).

I'm curious how accurate the testing is. Maybe some false negatives? You also have to remember that lots of other viruses and bacterial infections cause similar symptoms. Colds and the flu are still going around and can have very similar symptoms depending on how they manifest themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 05:46:59 AM

For anyone who thinks that they are insulated by living in a small community (not a shot at you at all MJ... just that I think there are still people who think it can't/won't happen to their town).  Nine dead in a nursing home in Bobcaygeon, ON - cottage country.  3500 total residents up there.  They don't know how the virus got in - thru a visitor, employee, or new resident.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 31, 2020, 05:52:50 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 05:46:59 AM

For anyone who thinks that they are insulated by living in a small community (not a shot at you at all MJ... just that I think there are still people who think it can't/won't happen to their town).  Nine dead in a nursing home in Bobcaygeon, ON - cottage country.  3500 total residents up there.  They don't know how the virus got in - thru a visitor, employee, or new resident.

I like how I go out of my way to note that I DON'T think I'm insulated by living in a small community, over and over, just made a post about dumbasses out in groups last night, and I still get mentioned in that context. :) You know, I go to work and come home and play video games and my piano, that's been the MO for the last couple weeks. I was on this social isolation nonsense before ya'll hopped on the bandwagon.  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 06:00:29 AM

Dude... I mentioned you by name because I wanted to be clear that I WASN'T putting you in that context. You're the only DTF'r (frequenting this thread) that I know of off the top of my that head lives in a tiny little town.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 31, 2020, 06:02:27 AM

You'll forgive me, because I've been lectured many a time for expressing my desire just to get on a damn treadmill despite acknowledging that I'm doing risk assessment all day long. I just find it amusing, I'm not getting heated, I wouldn't have said anything if I wasn't name dropped  :lol

FYI, I don't live in a city but my town isn't *that* tiny. 13k people, but we also have a direct line to Chicago, and sit on I-57 about 15 minutes north of the University of Illinois. We're like that shadowy part of the world Mufasa and Simba (the rich university prick kids) look out to from Pride Rock and are considered a wretched hive of scum and villainy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 31, 2020, 06:33:10 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on March 30, 2020, 06:52:59 AM

Quote from: XJDenton on March 29, 2020, 12:08:57 PM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on March 29, 2020, 11:59:05 AM

I'm quite surprised that we have so few deaths from Covid-19 in Sweden.
We had our first death on the 11th of March and have slowly gone up to the current toll of 110
The most deaths were a few days ago, 18 people died in a day but it did not rise as expected. Today we had 8 new deaths.

Hopefully it can stay like this but probably it will start to rise when people travel around the country for the easter break (against the advice from the authorities).

Myself.... I stay put at home, working from home and avoiding as much contact with others as I can.

Indeed. Given how comparatively lax the measures here are I'm surprised the growth rate is as low as it is.

Well, I guess the shit starts to hit the swedish fan now.... 36 death in the last day

Another 34 this past day.... still not that big of a shitstorm here in Sweden

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 31, 2020, 06:35:39 AM

Yeah, 180 in total now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 31, 2020, 06:48:35 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 06:00:29 AM

Dude... I mentioned you by name because I wanted to be clear that I WASN'T putting you in that context. You're the only DTF'r (frequenting this thread) that I know of off the top of my that head lives in a tiny little town.

7k in my town.

Population...not number of infected. ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 31, 2020, 07:24:33 AM

Our facility has moved to level 1. Many patients and employees are positive.
Some have died. I just witnessed a code blue on a Covid patient. Not sure if
they were saved. Tensions and fear are high, morale is low. Nurses have quit
in large numbers. I gave my wife an out to isolate from me until this is over
but she said she is staying with me. Crazy, surreal times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 31, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 30, 2020, 06:01:14 PM

Thank you for posting that. Medical professionals are cut from a different cloth than schlubs like me. My mom is a nurse in an ob/gyn clinic. I am worried about her but she reminds me that her clinic is small, and since they have a specific clientele she doesn't interact with as many people as those who work in a hospital. Unfortunately her clients aren't going to stop being pregnant just because they world around them stopped.

My cousin is an ER nurse in Fairfield County (by far the hardest hit part of Connecticut) and she's a bad ass.  She walks to a different drummer (and always has) but this is something else.  I know she's been exposed at least once so far, but so far, no impacts.   

I'm closer to her mom (my cousin) and grandparents (my aunt and uncle, both RIP) but I admire her pluck. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 31, 2020, 07:55:12 AM

Quote from: emtee on March 31, 2020, 07:24:33 AM

Our facility has moved to level 1. Many patients and employees are positive.
Some have died. I just witnessed a code blue on a Covid patient. Not sure if
they were saved. Tensions and fear are high, morale is low. Nurses have quit
in large numbers. I gave my wife an out to isolate from me until this is over
but she said she is staying with me. Crazy, surreal times.

Speaking of your wife, has your at home routine changed much? I'm not in health care, but when I get home, I'm met with a cloud of disinfectant spray. I take all my clothes off as soon as I get in the house and jump in a hot shower. Then my work clothes and towel get washed in hot water.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 31, 2020, 08:28:15 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 31, 2020, 06:48:35 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 06:00:29 AM

Dude... I mentioned you by name because I wanted to be clear that I WASN'T putting you in that context. You're the only DTF'r (frequenting this thread) that I know of off the top of my that head lives in a tiny little town.

7k in my town.

Population...not number of infected. ;D

1,500 in my town. 10 miles to the closest North town. 5-6 miles to the closest East and West towns. Fairly isolated here. I work from home so this hasn't really changed my life much at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: black_biff_stadler on March 31, 2020, 08:35:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 05:46:59 AM

For anyone who thinks that they are insulated by living in a small community (not a shot at you at all MJ... just that I think there are still people who think it can't/won't happen to their town).  Nine dead in a nursing home in Bobcaygeon, ON - cottage country.  3500 total residents up there.  They don't know how the virus got in - thru a visitor, employee, or new resident.

Damn. That death toll extrapolates to 840K with the US' population of 327M.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 31, 2020, 08:37:34 AM

You'd have to think that the fatality rate in a nursing home is going to be way higher than the overall fatality rate, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 31, 2020, 08:54:21 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 31, 2020, 07:55:12 AM

Quote from: emtee on March 31, 2020, 07:24:33 AM

Our facility has moved to level 1. Many patients and employees are positive.
Some have died. I just witnessed a code blue on a Covid patient. Not sure if
they were saved. Tensions and fear are high, morale is low. Nurses have quit
in large numbers. I gave my wife an out to isolate from me until this is over
but she said she is staying with me. Crazy, surreal times.

Speaking of your wife, has your at home routine changed much? I'm not in health care, but when I get home, I'm met with a cloud of disinfectant spray. I take all my clothes off as soon as I get in the house and jump in a hot shower. Then my work clothes and towel get washed in hot water.

I'm not going to lie; this is a stress-inducing situation.   It's not all fun and board games at the Stadler household.  Nothing to panic about, nothing that will be permanent, but it's a compact, sealed vessel with a turbulent brew of emotions, and that's not easy for all people. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 31, 2020, 08:59:40 AM

Death rate estimated to be 0.66%.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/coronavirus-death-rate-is-lower-than-previously-reported-study-says-but-its-still-deadlier-than-seasonal-flu/ar-BB11VZFh?li=BBnb4R7

Unadjusted death rate is 1.38%. So it seems they're estimating that about half of the cases are going undetected. I would have guessed much higher than that goes undetected. But I'll trust these people are far smarter and more knowledgeable than me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 31, 2020, 09:13:30 AM

Compared to this under-reporting:  https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-residents-say-chinese-government-coronavirus-death-toll-is-low-2020-3

Some of this is sort of "Trumpian" (referring to social media sources, and a "resident surnamed Zhang"), but:  https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/wuhan-deaths-03272020182846.html

They both suggest a possible under-reporting by a factor of 15 or more for the deaths in Wuhan.  Right now, the TOTAL deaths across the globe are estimated to be 39,563 (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).   That means that it's plausible that the Chinese government has potentially under-reported deaths equal to the TOTAL number of global deaths so far.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 31, 2020, 09:29:23 AM

Passing this along from an infectious disease epidemiologist.  It's very good information.  Do not get complacent.  Bold emphasis is mine.

Quote

Hey everybody, as an infectious disease epidemiologist, at this point feel morally obligated to provide some information on what we are seeing from a transmission dynamic perspective and how they apply to the social distancing measures.

Like any good scientist I have noticed two things that are either not articulated or not present in the "literature" of social media.

Specifically, I want to make two aspects of these measures very clear and unambiguous.

First, we are in the very infancy of this epidemic's trajectory. That means even with these measures we will see cases and deaths continue to rise globally, nationally, and in our own communities in the coming weeks.

Our hospitals will be overwhelmed, and people will die that didn't have to.

This may lead some people to think that the social distancing
measures are not working.

They are.

They may feel futile.

They aren't.

You will feel discouraged.

You should.

This is normal in chaos. But, this is also normal epidemic trajectory.

Stay calm.

This enemy that we are facing is very good at what it does; we are not failing. We need everyone to hold the line as the epidemic inevitably gets worse.

This is not my opinion; this is the unforgiving math of epidemics for which I and my colleagues have dedicated our lives to understanding with great nuance, and this disease is no exception.

We know what will happen; I want to help the community brace for this impact.

Stay strong and with solidarity knowing with absolute certainty that what you are doing is saving lives, even as people begin getting sick and dying.

You may feel like giving in.

Don't.

Second, although social distancing measures have been (at least temporarily) well-received, there is an obvious-but-overlooked phenomenon when considering groups (i.e. families) in transmission dynamics.

While social distancing decreases contact with members of society, it of course increases your contacts with group (i.e. family) members. This small and obvious fact has surprisingly profound implications on disease transmission dynamics.

Study after study demonstrates that even if there is only a little bit of connection between groups (i.e. social dinners, playdates/playgrounds, etc.), the epidemic trajectory isn't much different than if there was no measure in place. The same underlying fundamentals of disease transmission apply, and the result is that the community is left with all of the social and economic disruption but very little public health benefit.

You should perceive your entire family to function as a single individual unit; if one person puts themselves at risk, everyone in
the unit is at risk.

Seemingly small social chains get large and complex with alarming speed.

If your son visits his girlfriend, and you later sneak over for coffee with a neighbor, your neighbor is now connected to the infected office worker that your son's girlfriend's mother shook hands with.

This sounds silly, it's not.

This is not a joke or a hypothetical.

We as epidemiologists see it borne out in the data time and time again and no one listens.

Conversely, any break in that chain breaks disease transmission along that chain.

In contrast to hand-washing and other personal measures, social distancing measures are not about individuals, they are about societies working in unison.

These measures also take a long time to see the results.

It is hard (even for me) to conceptualize how 'one quick little get together' can undermine the entire framework of a public health intervention, but it does.

I promise you it does.

I promise. I promise. I promise.

You can't cheat it. People are already itching to cheat on the social distancing precautions just a "little"- a playdate, a haircut, or picking up a needless item at the store, etc.

From a transmission dynamics standpoint, this very quickly recreates a highly connected social network that undermines all of the work the community has done so far.

Until we get a viable vaccine this unprecedented outbreak will not be overcome in grand, sweeping gesture, rather only by the collection of individual choices our community makes in the coming months.

This virus is unforgiving to unwise choices.

My goal in writing this is to prevent communities from getting ‘sucker-punched' by what the epidemiological community knows will happen in the coming weeks.

It will be easy to be drawn to the idea that what we are doing isn't working and become paralyzed by fear, or to 'cheat' a little bit in the coming weeks.

By knowing what to expect, and knowing the importance of maintaining these measures, my hope is to encourage continued community spirit, strategizing, and action to persevere in this time of uncertainty.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 31, 2020, 09:33:08 AM

yea, especially since a lot of spread has been shown to be within people living together.  If one person gets it and bring it into the home, the rest of the home is VERY likely to get it so that's really spot on IMO.

Also Dr Fauci was on CNN this morning and said something similar about how we can't easily see the damage reduction done by social distancing but it HAS been working even though things are about to get a lot worse, that doesn't mean that our efforts have been in vain.  It's helping.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 31, 2020, 10:19:46 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 31, 2020, 09:13:30 AM

Compared to this under-reporting:  https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-residents-say-chinese-government-coronavirus-death-toll-is-low-2020-3

Some of this is sort of "Trumpian" (referring to social media sources, and a "resident surnamed Zhang"), but:  https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/wuhan-deaths-03272020182846.html

They both suggest a possible under-reporting by a factor of 15 or more for the deaths in Wuhan.  Right now, the TOTAL deaths across the globe are estimated to be 39,563 (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).   That means that it's plausible that the Chinese government has potentially under-reported deaths equal to the TOTAL number of global deaths so far.

Yep, that sounds about right.  And I wouldn't be surprised if it is actually a lot higher than that.  My guess, is that China has had millions of cases so far.

And Stadler, I'm sorry to hear about your situation at home, I hope that things are able to mellow out soon for you and your fam.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Architeuthis on March 31, 2020, 10:49:08 AM

I live in a smaller town called Sequim on the north Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. One day before the non-essential job restrictions when into effect, I was working in a rural area pruning fruit trees.  I was up on a ladder and this guy driving by on the road stopped and rolled down his window and started asking me way too many questions.  He asked me if I was working, I said it doesn't feel like work to me, it's a nice sunny day. Then he said,  do you know that tree pruning and landscaping are considered non essential jobs. I told him that the Governor said that this doesn't go into effect until the next day. Then the guy started asking me personal questions like do you live here at this place, if not, where do you live?  Then he asked, do you have a business license or a company name? 
 By then I could tell this guy was on a mission and I wasn't giving him any information. So I politely asked him, so who's clock are you on??  He got mad and said "I'm turning you in, and drove off.  I know he was offended because he thought the mandate was allready in effect, and deep down inside I can appreciate his concern (people are scared). 
 However, I didn't have any close contact with anybody that day. I showed up to do my job and I was outside up in a fruit tree pruning nowhere near any viruses or people. I do take this whole thing seriously, but people like that are busy-bodies and I didn't owe him any explaination. I had to finish a harmless job so I can pay bills.
 I guess it's ok for 65 year old people to work around hundreds of people at grocery stores, but not ok to work in a rural area pruning fruit trees by yourself away from people all together. Good grief!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 10:52:10 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 31, 2020, 08:54:21 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 31, 2020, 07:55:12 AM

Quote from: emtee on March 31, 2020, 07:24:33 AM

Our facility has moved to level 1. Many patients and employees are positive.
Some have died. I just witnessed a code blue on a Covid patient. Not sure if
they were saved. Tensions and fear are high, morale is low. Nurses have quit
in large numbers. I gave my wife an out to isolate from me until this is over
but she said she is staying with me. Crazy, surreal times.

Speaking of your wife, has your at home routine changed much? I'm not in health care, but when I get home, I'm met with a cloud of disinfectant spray. I take all my clothes off as soon as I get in the house and jump in a hot shower. Then my work clothes and towel get washed in hot water.

I'm not going to lie; this is a stress-inducing situation.   It's not all fun and board games at the Stadler household.  Nothing to panic about, nothing that will be permanent, but it's a compact, sealed vessel with a turbulent brew of emotions, and that's not easy for all people.

Yeah, there's been some turbulence off and on in the jingle.household too.  Over STUPID shit.  That's what happens when the stress volatility meter is going haywire.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 31, 2020, 10:56:19 AM

People weren't meant to spend THIS much time together.

That's why men invented war. To get away from their families for a while.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 31, 2020, 10:58:06 AM

Chris Cuomo is positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 31, 2020, 11:00:45 AM

So we had a fun stressor on Saturday...one of our cats started off the day lethargic, and by mid-afternoon had developed a very noticeable fever.  Our normal vet was closed.  The emergency vet was closed!!  Eventually found one that we had used a few years ago when we lived in a different town.  It was a bizarre experience, had to bring her up to the door, set her down and step back, then the vet tech could get her.  All conversations about history and what was going on, and the assessment were all over the phone while I was sitting in the parking lot. She had a 105.7degF fever, and it turned out her neutrophils were way down (so, she'd been fighting a massive infection, for a while).  We got her home, but her fever started to come back and her breathing was shallow and fast, and the vet was closing soon...we were contemplating having to take her to a 24 hour vet that we knew was open, but which was dead-center in NJ's hotspot (Bergen county).  Fortunately she equilibrated and is back to her old, healthy self, but jesus christ that was a stressful few hours.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 11:11:35 AM

Forgot to thank Harmony for that post.  Very solid and well founded advice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on March 31, 2020, 11:23:03 AM

Quote from: Architeuthis on March 31, 2020, 10:49:08 AM

I live in a smaller town called Sequim on the north Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. One day before the non-essential job restrictions when into effect, I was working in a rural area pruning fruit trees.  I was up on a ladder and this guy driving by on the road stopped and rolled down his window and started asking me way too many questions.  He asked me if I was working, I said it doesn't feel like work to me, it's a nice sunny day. Then he said,  do you know that tree pruning and landscaping are considered non essential jobs. I told him that the Governor said that this doesn't go into effect until the next day. Then the guy started asking me personal questions like do you live here at this place, if not, where do you live?  Then he asked, do you have a business license or a company name? 
 By then I could tell this guy was on a mission and I wasn't giving him any information. So I politely asked him, so who's clock are you on??  He got mad and said "I'm turning you in, and drove off.  I know he was offended because he thought the mandate was allready in effect, and deep down inside I can appreciate his concern (people are scared). 
 However, I didn't have any close contact with anybody that day. I showed up to do my job and I was outside up in a fruit tree pruning nowhere near any viruses or people. I do take this whole thing seriously, but people like that are busy-bodies and I didn't owe him any explaination. I had to finish a harmless job so I can pay bills.
 I guess it's ok for 65 year old people to work around hundreds of people at grocery stores, but not ok to work in a rural area pruning fruit trees by yourself away from people all together. Good grief!

The city I'm in literally sent out a statement via email and Facebook telling people to mind their own business and stop calling 911 because people are leaving their homes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 31, 2020, 11:34:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 31, 2020, 11:23:03 AM

Quote from: Architeuthis on March 31, 2020, 10:49:08 AM

I live in a smaller town called Sequim on the north Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. One day before the non-essential job restrictions when into effect, I was working in a rural area pruning fruit trees.  I was up on a ladder and this guy driving by on the road stopped and rolled down his window and started asking me way too many questions.  He asked me if I was working, I said it doesn't feel like work to me, it's a nice sunny day. Then he said,  do you know that tree pruning and landscaping are considered non essential jobs. I told him that the Governor said that this doesn't go into effect until the next day. Then the guy started asking me personal questions like do you live here at this place, if not, where do you live?  Then he asked, do you have a business license or a company name? 
 By then I could tell this guy was on a mission and I wasn't giving him any information. So I politely asked him, so who's clock are you on??  He got mad and said "I'm turning you in, and drove off.  I know he was offended because he thought the mandate was allready in effect, and deep down inside I can appreciate his concern (people are scared). 
 However, I didn't have any close contact with anybody that day. I showed up to do my job and I was outside up in a fruit tree pruning nowhere near any viruses or people. I do take this whole thing seriously, but people like that are busy-bodies and I didn't owe him any explaination. I had to finish a harmless job so I can pay bills.
 I guess it's ok for 65 year old people to work around hundreds of people at grocery stores, but not ok to work in a rural area pruning fruit trees by yourself away from people all together. Good grief!

The city I'm in literally sent out a statement via email and Facebook telling people to mind their own business and stop calling 911 because people are leaving their homes.

Maybe it's gallows humor, but that made me laugh out loud.   

(I was watching Ridiculousness over the weekend, and they had a segment that was supposed to be funny wisdom from old people, and this young - to me, so, 20-ish - woman had her camera and her grandmother was behind her in a rocking chair.   The girl asked "Gramma, what's the secret to a long life?" and Gram said "Mind your own goddamn business!"   I think it was meant to be something else in context, but it's not far off if you're asking me.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on March 31, 2020, 11:34:58 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on March 31, 2020, 11:23:03 AM

Quote from: Architeuthis on March 31, 2020, 10:49:08 AM

I live in a smaller town called Sequim on the north Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. One day before the non-essential job restrictions when into effect, I was working in a rural area pruning fruit trees.  I was up on a ladder and this guy driving by on the road stopped and rolled down his window and started asking me way too many questions.  He asked me if I was working, I said it doesn't feel like work to me, it's a nice sunny day. Then he said,  do you know that tree pruning and landscaping are considered non essential jobs. I told him that the Governor said that this doesn't go into effect until the next day. Then the guy started asking me personal questions like do you live here at this place, if not, where do you live?  Then he asked, do you have a business license or a company name? 
 By then I could tell this guy was on a mission and I wasn't giving him any information. So I politely asked him, so who's clock are you on??  He got mad and said "I'm turning you in, and drove off.  I know he was offended because he thought the mandate was allready in effect, and deep down inside I can appreciate his concern (people are scared). 
 However, I didn't have any close contact with anybody that day. I showed up to do my job and I was outside up in a fruit tree pruning nowhere near any viruses or people. I do take this whole thing seriously, but people like that are busy-bodies and I didn't owe him any explaination. I had to finish a harmless job so I can pay bills.
 I guess it's ok for 65 year old people to work around hundreds of people at grocery stores, but not ok to work in a rural area pruning fruit trees by yourself away from people all together. Good grief!

The city I'm in literally sent out a statement via email and Facebook telling people to mind their own business and stop calling 911 because people are leaving their homes.

Yeah, what ever happened to the mantra "leave well-enough alone"  I'm a liberty guy, this kind of thing makes my blood boil.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 31, 2020, 11:41:50 AM

Quote from: Architeuthis on March 31, 2020, 10:49:08 AM

I live in a smaller town called Sequim...

No way, I knew you lived in the PNW somewhere, just didn't know where.

Quote from: lordxizor on March 31, 2020, 11:23:03 AM

The city I'm in literally sent out a statement via email and Facebook telling people to mind their own business and stop calling 911 because people are leaving their homes.

WA has set up a website where you can report "violators," businesses who are open who shouldn't be, and some cities have sites where you can report people who are gathering it large groups.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 31, 2020, 11:50:17 AM

Seeing reports that Pritzker is going to extend Illinois' stay at home order until 4/30 today. Not unexpected, but bad since my wife cannot work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on March 31, 2020, 12:14:58 PM

Quote from: millahh on March 31, 2020, 11:00:45 AM

So we had a fun stressor on Saturday...one of our cats started off the day lethargic, and by mid-afternoon had developed a very noticeable fever.  Our normal vet was closed.  The emergency vet was closed!!  Eventually found one that we had used a few years ago when we lived in a different town.  It was a bizarre experience, had to bring her up to the door, set her down and step back, then the vet tech could get her.  All conversations about history and what was going on, and the assessment were all over the phone while I was sitting in the parking lot. She had a 105.7degF fever, and it turned out her neutrophils were way down (so, she'd been fighting a massive infection, for a while).  We got her home, but her fever started to come back and her breathing was shallow and fast, and the vet was closing soon...we were contemplating having to take her to a 24 hour vet that we knew was open, but which was dead-center in NJ's hotspot (Bergen county).  Fortunately she equilibrated and is back to her old, healthy self, but jesus christ that was a stressful few hours.

We had a vet situation on Friday. Our dog was only half-opening her right eye for a day or two. I assumed it was a scratch but made the appointment just to be sure.
They informed me to call when I was parked out front, which I did. The vet tech came out within a few minutes and took her right out of the car, within ten minutes, the vet called me, informed me it was indeed a scratch, and explained the meds and doses. A few minutes later, the receptionist called me for my payment info, then the tech came out with my pup and the meds. I never left the driver's seat.
It was very efficient, things should be like this always!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 31, 2020, 01:01:54 PM

I had the same situation with my cat this past weekend, she needed her steroid shot. I pulled up, they came and picked her up, gave her the shot and charged my card. ezpz.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 01:48:31 PM

I feel horrible for the pet owners who have to help their pet cross the rainbow bridge.  I hope some vets are making exceptions, because that would be a terrible thing to have to 'turn over' to the vet and their staff alone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 31, 2020, 02:02:30 PM

A small bit more stress in the 42434224 household, but I think that is to be expected.  But on the whole, it is pretty reasonable.  Wife is a teacher, and both her and my two daughters (just turned 11 & 14) are home.  I normally work from home 75% of the time...now its 100%, so really not a big deal for me.  We are lucky to have a very large covered, and screened in, patio area with our outdoor pool area by a lake.  Covered area is about 15 ft X 50 ft with an 8 person dining table, sectional couch with 60" TV and surround system, outdoor shower, and fire pit, etc.  Basically an outdoor house....which is great when 4 people (2 adults and 2 kids) are all on computers doing work and classwork.  Plus I have an upstairs office, so we all have our space to get our stuff done during the day.  It is in the high 70's to low 80's and sunny, so we take breaks and relax in the pool.
We are very lucky to have the weather and outdoor space to live in during isolation.  If we all had to be stuck in a small house during this, the stress level would be WAY higher.  Doing a lot of take-out to support our local restaurants, so we will all be fat as hell when all is said and done.  We are trying to stay as isolated as we reasonably can, especially due to my Mom living nearby, with her age and some health issues, we are keeping our distance.

I hope everyone in DTF weathers this storm and comes out on the other end healthy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 31, 2020, 02:03:53 PM

Tomorrow is April Fool’s day. So prepare for social media posts about every celebrity testing positive and probably dying from covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 31, 2020, 02:45:13 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 31, 2020, 11:50:17 AM

Seeing reports that Pritzker is going to extend Illinois' stay at home order until 4/30 today. Not unexpected, but bad since my wife cannot work.

It's official and my wife isn't taking it well. She is bipolar and she is absolutely stir-crazy with this. As soon as the Governor announced it she said she is going for a drive and left. This is a real life change for her. She is a total social butterfly and I am a total shut-in who is mostly anti-social. I love it, she hates it.

Big plus I am taking out of all of this is it is forcing her to not spend too much and allowing me to save up some cash.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on March 31, 2020, 02:51:25 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 01:48:31 PM

I feel horrible for the pet owners who have to help their pet cross the rainbow bridge.  I hope some vets are making exceptions, because that would be a terrible thing to have to 'turn over' to the vet and their staff alone.

The read I get from my usual vet is that they'd allow this, and I could imagine they'd even spare a mask.  It would be a very extenuating circumstance.  And oddly, much safer than saying goodbye to a loved one in a hospital, as vets offices aren't going to be teeming with the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 31, 2020, 02:56:43 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 31, 2020, 02:03:53 PM

Tomorrow is April Fool’s day. So prepare for social media posts about every celebrity testing positive and probably dying from covid.

And a new forum theme  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 31, 2020, 02:59:01 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 31, 2020, 02:03:53 PM

Tomorrow is April Fool’s day. So prepare for social media posts about every celebrity testing positive and probably dying from covid.

I'd rather prepare for the only day where people question whatever bullshit they read on the internet, and wonder why they don't keep the same attitude the other 364 days of the year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 31, 2020, 03:19:36 PM

A previous employer of mine. A horrible situation all the way around.

https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doesnt-want-holland-americas-stricken-zaandam-cruise-docking-2020-3

Quote

The Coast Guard will not yet permit the MS Zaandam, a Holland America cruise with at least two confirmed cases of COVID-19 onboard, and the MS Rotterdam, the ship sent to rescue its healthy passengers, to enter US waters.

Florida officials remain concerned that allowing Zaandam and Rotterdam passengers to disembark in Fort Lauderdale's seaport Port Everglades could worsen the spread of coronavirus in the area.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 31, 2020, 06:19:16 PM

As of today, 26 confirmed cases in my county... only one up from yesterday, but this time, it's the first confirmed case in my own town.

Fuck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on March 31, 2020, 06:24:12 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 31, 2020, 07:55:12 AM

Quote from: emtee on March 31, 2020, 07:24:33 AM

Our facility has moved to level 1. Many patients and employees are positive.
Some have died. I just witnessed a code blue on a Covid patient. Not sure if
they were saved. Tensions and fear are high, morale is low. Nurses have quit
in large numbers. I gave my wife an out to isolate from me until this is over
but she said she is staying with me. Crazy, surreal times.

Speaking of your wife, has your at home routine changed much? I'm not in health care, but when I get home, I'm met with a cloud of disinfectant spray. I take all my clothes off as soon as I get in the house and jump in a hot shower. Then my work clothes and towel get washed in hot water.

You should at least get some shower sex for your trouble

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 31, 2020, 06:30:53 PM

So I have been ill for more than a week. A couple of days of (mild) fever and a massive headache, then about one and a half day getting better with barely any symptoms, and then suddenly significantly more ill than I initially was, with a dry cough. Thankfully at the time of writing I am finally better. I had to go to the doctor and they did test for a variety of infections (all negative). She told me that corona patients under her care followed a similar pattern (ill, almost better, then suddenly more ill, and some progressing into severe illness). But they only test hospitalizations here, so there is no way of knowing. I locked myself up and have followed the social distacing protocols prior, so thankfully the chance I spread something nasty is small.



Also regarding the state of The Netherlands now:
Despite initial signs showing our measurements are lowering the amount of new cases on a daily basis, the actual peak of corona patients in the hospitals is expected to be at the end of may (almost two months from now). On average, the patients at the ICU are there for 23 days (!!!). And offcourse with the long incubation time, initial mild disease, it potentially takes a while for patients to get to the point of hospitalization. Based on our data, it seems highly likely a lot of countries have not seen their peaks yet. Also, statistically, 80% of our ICU cases is overweight, so at least here there seems to be a potential connection in that regard.

Honestly the fact that they expect the peak to be so far ahead is just depressing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 31, 2020, 06:36:12 PM

ErHaO, get well soon.  Stay safe. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 31, 2020, 06:54:54 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 31, 2020, 06:36:12 PM

ErHaO, get well soon.  Stay safe.

Amen, brother!

Quote from: mike099 on March 31, 2020, 06:24:12 PM

You should at least get some shower sex for your trouble

Hah! My wife won't even kiss me until I get out. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on March 31, 2020, 10:19:10 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 31, 2020, 01:48:31 PM

I feel horrible for the pet owners who have to help their pet cross the rainbow bridge.  I hope some vets are making exceptions, because that would be a terrible thing to have to 'turn over' to the vet and their staff alone.

That would be absolutely heart breaking. I couldn't even imagine it.

ErHaO....  Hang in there Brother, we will keep you in our prayers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 01, 2020, 01:34:50 AM

ErHaO, I had the exact same symptoms, only a lot less 'extreme', so to speak. I don't ever really get ill from a regular cold, so I didn't really have any problems at all. My girlfriend's immune system is not as good and she was more ill. She also had the shortness of breath and loss of taste and smell; symptoms that are supposedly typical of this virus. Without being tested, she's pretty sure she's had the coronavirus, which would basically mean that I've had it as well. I was feeling more tired than usual and had had a cold, nothing too serious, then after a few days of feeling better I suddenly got this extreme headache. There's no way to know for sure, though it would be quite good to know if I've had it and that it didn't affect me a lot.

---

Regarding the situation in the Netherlands; I get the feeling our healthcare system is very different from that of other European countries (mainly countries like Italy & Spain), where the goal is to heal basically everybody as soon as possible. Our healthcare system, or maybe our society, is more focused on quality of living, rather than stretching out a life when there's barely any chance for recovery. We're also not prone to place everybody who enters a hospital on the Intensive Care immediately. From what I gathered - and this may be wrong -  is that in Italy, elderly people who already have a lower chance at survival, are put on the Intensive Care beds, essentially filling up places that now can not be used for younger folk, who then die as well. The death toll actually goes up if you try your best to save people with little chance, by not having the resources to aid those with a higher chance to survive. Sounds pretty terrible to type stuff like that out, but in these situations, I think the health care's goal should not be about saving everybody, because that's impossible - it should be about healing as many people as possible and, harsh as it sounds, this includes not using all your resources on people who are going to die anyway.

^ I don't know if that came across in the right way and I truly do not mean to offend anyone with it. I am not a healthcare worker (teacher here), but I have many friends that are. The situation in our hospitals right now is not nice, but the way our healthcare is organised - like I said, quality of life before prolongation - has actually made the situation more managable here as far as I can tell.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 01, 2020, 01:47:00 AM

Not offensive at all Elite; sadly the immense emergency of so many people sick at the same time drives the sanitary system to a collapse and forces doctors to make do with the resources they're left with, beside having to make those decisions that you outlined. This has always been the true danger of the virus, regardless of the high mortality rate or not. Too many people sick at the same time is never, ever a good thing.

Best wishes to pull through to the many people who in the latest pages discussed their situation!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DreamerTV on April 01, 2020, 04:47:06 AM

Jumping in to wish all the best to everybody in here, especially those affected by the virus.

About Italy's death toll, it's quite complicated. Because of how our state system is organized, we're basically counting every person who's passed with Coronavirus, not just those who passed because of it. A lot of people who were already in hospitals, or other health facilities, and were already severely ill, got it there, and their condition worsened.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 01, 2020, 07:01:06 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 31, 2020, 06:54:54 PM

Quote from: mike099 on March 31, 2020, 06:24:12 PM

You should at least get some shower sex for your trouble

Hah! My wife won't even kiss me until I get out. :lol

 :lol

Quote from: DreamerTV on April 01, 2020, 04:47:06 AM

Jumping in to wish all the best to everybody in here, especially those affected by the virus.

About Italy's death toll, it's quite complicated. Because of how our state system is organized, we're basically counting every person who's passed with Coronavirus, not just those who passed because of it. A lot of people who were already in hospitals, or other health facilities, and were already severely ill, got it there, and their condition worsened.

This question was brought up before. It's will be impossible to know how many people died because of the virus since so many were already ill.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Darrellos on April 01, 2020, 07:04:08 AM

I don't you can even make that distinction at the moment, sadly. It's just unrealistinc to try to determine whether someone died "from" or "with" coronavirus in this situation. Not enough resources to do that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 01, 2020, 07:46:27 AM

Samuel Jackson's new poem (https://youtu.be/sSrbxyna4z4?t=364)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 01, 2020, 08:44:00 AM

Well, the beer distributor my younger brother works for (I forgot his title, but he runs this area) is declaring bankruptcy on the 15th this month, so he will be out of a job.  Ugh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 01, 2020, 08:49:31 AM

Well said, nobody can wax eloquent like Samual L Jackson.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on April 01, 2020, 08:54:14 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 01, 2020, 01:34:50 AM

ErHaO, I had the exact same symptoms, only a lot less 'extreme', so to speak. I don't ever really get ill from a regular cold, so I didn't really have any problems at all. My girlfriend's immune system is not as good and she was more ill. She also had the shortness of breath and loss of taste and smell; symptoms that are supposedly typical of this virus. Without being tested, she's pretty sure she's had the coronavirus, which would basically mean that I've had it as well. I was feeling more tired than usual and had had a cold, nothing too serious, then after a few days of feeling better I suddenly got this extreme headache. There's no way to know for sure, though it would be quite good to know if I've had it and that it didn't affect me a lot.

---

Regarding the situation in the Netherlands; I get the feeling our healthcare system is very different from that of other European countries (mainly countries like Italy & Spain), where the goal is to heal basically everybody as soon as possible. Our healthcare system, or maybe our society, is more focused on quality of living, rather than stretching out a life when there's barely any chance for recovery. We're also not prone to place everybody who enters a hospital on the Intensive Care immediately. From what I gathered - and this may be wrong -  is that in Italy, elderly people who already have a lower chance at survival, are put on the Intensive Care beds, essentially filling up places that now can not be used for younger folk, who then die as well. The death toll actually goes up if you try your best to save people with little chance, by not having the resources to aid those with a higher chance to survive. Sounds pretty terrible to type stuff like that out, but in these situations, I think the health care's goal should not be about saving everybody, because that's impossible - it should be about healing as many people as possible and, harsh as it sounds, this includes not using all your resources on people who are going to die anyway.

^ I don't know if that came across in the right way and I truly do not mean to offend anyone with it. I am not a healthcare worker (teacher here), but I have many friends that are. The situation in our hospitals right now is not nice, but the way our healthcare is organised - like I said, quality of life before prolongation - has actually made the situation more managable here as far as I can tell.

I have a friend who is a doctor and is currently being trained to be a backup for coronavirus cases when things get worse. He told me that they are putting a system in place called triage, in case things get out of control. They will evaluate cases and put them in one of four categories: Green, Yellow, Red, Black. Green is not serious, Yellow is non urgent but requires attention, Red needs urgent attention and Black has no chance. They will prioritize Red-Yellow-Green-Black. I understand this is how war hospitals work and while it does sound a bit harsh, I think it is the best way to save the biggest amount of people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 01, 2020, 08:57:17 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on April 01, 2020, 08:49:31 AM

Well said, nobody can wax eloquent like Samual L Jackson.

Fo real!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxeDWiM65DE

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 01, 2020, 09:41:14 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 01, 2020, 08:44:00 AM

Well, the beer distributor my younger brother works for (I forgot his title, but he runs this area) is declaring bankruptcy on the 15th this month, so he will be out of a job.  Ugh.

that sucks. I seen articles that because of COVID, liquor sales have gone up nation wide.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 01, 2020, 10:04:21 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 01, 2020, 09:41:14 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 01, 2020, 08:44:00 AM

Well, the beer distributor my younger brother works for (I forgot his title, but he runs this area) is declaring bankruptcy on the 15th this month, so he will be out of a job.  Ugh.

that sucks. I seen articles that because of COVID, liquor sales have gone up nation wide.

I saw a piece yesterday that they've gone up 40% here in the SF Bay Area.

Kev, does the distributor only serve restaurants and bars?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 01, 2020, 10:33:20 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 01, 2020, 10:04:21 AM

Kev, does the distributor only serve restaurants and bars?

No, but based on what he has told me before, I think they were struggling a little bit already, and this was the final nail in their coffin, from the looks of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Architeuthis on April 01, 2020, 11:02:36 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 31, 2020, 11:41:50 AM

Quote from: Architeuthis on March 31, 2020, 10:49:08 AM

I live in a smaller town called Sequim...

No way, I knew you lived in the PNW somewhere, just didn't know where.

Quote from: lordxizor on March 31, 2020, 11:23:03 AM

The city I'm in literally sent out a statement via email and Facebook telling people to mind their own business and stop calling 911 because people are leaving their homes.

WA has set up a website where you can report "violators," businesses who are open who shouldn't be, and some cities have sites where you can report people who are gathering it large groups.

Yep, I've lived in Sequim all my life. I was born in California but moved up here in 1972 when I was two months old. I grew up on a farm and never had the desire to move away. It's a very nice corner of the earth, beach to the north, mountians to the south.
 If life ever returns to normal and a band like DT ever returns to Seattle, we should meet up before the show. I've only met one person from DT forums so far and that was jammindude,  who is a awesome person!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 01, 2020, 11:03:32 AM

That R.E.M. song keeps popping into my head.  :omg:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 01, 2020, 12:22:09 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 01, 2020, 11:03:32 AM

That R.E.M. song keeps popping into my head.  :omg:

Shiny Happy People?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 01, 2020, 12:54:03 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 01, 2020, 12:22:09 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 01, 2020, 11:03:32 AM

That R.E.M. song keeps popping into my head.  :omg:

Shiny Happy People?

7 Chinese Bros?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 01, 2020, 12:59:18 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 01, 2020, 12:54:03 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 01, 2020, 12:22:09 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 01, 2020, 11:03:32 AM

That R.E.M. song keeps popping into my head.  :omg:

Shiny Happy People?

7 Chinese Bros?

Emphysema

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 01, 2020, 01:45:38 PM

"It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)" :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 01, 2020, 02:19:00 PM

Welp.

GF and I have had some symptoms (hers worse than mine). Elevated temperature, some coughing. She's had some breathing issues. She went to go get screened.... Doctor won't test her, but said there is a chance, as we've been exposed (my GF's clients did a lot of traveling abroad before the lock down, plus we were still dealing with our bowling league up until 2 weeks ago.)

So now we are both on a 2 week quarantine.

Doesn't change too much. We've already been keeping our interactions with people to a minimum. But still...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 01, 2020, 02:52:22 PM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 01, 2020, 02:19:00 PM

Welp.

GF and I have had some symptoms (hers worse than mine). Elevated temperature, some coughing. She's had some breathing issues. She went to go get screened.... Doctor won't test her, but said there is a chance, as we've been exposed (my GF's clients did a lot of traveling abroad before the lock down, plus we were still dealing with our bowling league up until 2 weeks ago.)

So now we are both on a 2 week quarantine.

Doesn't change too much. We've already been keeping our interactions with people to a minimum. But still...

Sorry to hear that Jay O.  Hope it turns out to be nothing.  I'm assuming you and GF live together?  Did the Doc say why he wouldn't do the test?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 01, 2020, 03:39:38 PM

Sorry Jay, stay low and stay safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 01, 2020, 04:43:34 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 01, 2020, 02:52:22 PM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 01, 2020, 02:19:00 PM

Welp.

GF and I have had some symptoms (hers worse than mine). Elevated temperature, some coughing. She's had some breathing issues. She went to go get screened.... Doctor won't test her, but said there is a chance, as we've been exposed (my GF's clients did a lot of traveling abroad before the lock down, plus we were still dealing with our bowling league up until 2 weeks ago.)

So now we are both on a 2 week quarantine.

Doesn't change too much. We've already been keeping our interactions with people to a minimum. But still...

Sorry to hear that Jay O.  Hope it turns out to be nothing.  I'm assuming you and GF live together?  Did the Doc say why he wouldn't do the test?

We do live together.


They tested the person in front of her at the "drive thru" site. I'm assuming it's due to to there being very few tests available, and the lack of severe symptoms on her part.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 01, 2020, 05:05:37 PM

Fuck, that blows man.  :tdwn  If you have been Corona'd, I hope it's a mild case.  Those seem to suck ass too, but at least you won't be fighting for hospital space.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 01, 2020, 05:16:44 PM

At this point, I figure everyone is going to be exposed to it at some point.  It's so fucking contagious, and there's no way around the fact that you do need to leave the house at least once in a while to get food and meds.  Sure, you can take every precaution.  Masks, disinfect everything, sterile practices, etc.  Are we all going to keep this up for the next two months, six months, a year or more?  The "experts" say we're at least a year away from a vaccine or cure.

I just hope that when I get it, it's not too bad.  I know three people personally who have it now, all my age give or take a few years.  Two are still in the hospital, and one never went in.  He stayed home with a postive diagnosis, but his symptoms never got worse than "a regular flu".  Some people never show symptoms at all.  Life is a crapshoot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 01, 2020, 05:46:33 PM

My sister shared to our family group chat a video from their balcony in Manhattan of the people cheering at 7pm for the medical workers change of shift as ambulances drive down an empty 2nd Ave. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 01, 2020, 05:49:25 PM

I really hope every single person doesn't get it.  If we stay at home for whatever the recommended amount turns out to be, at least maybe there will be a lot less of it spreading around.  Maybe we'll have to have several rounds of this; I've read a few health experts speculating that might be the case.  But I agree - we can hope for a mild case if we do get it.  And if we have to be hospitalized, hopefully the longer we've held out, the more likely they'll have equipment and not be overwhelmed.  And maybe have more treatment options.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 01, 2020, 05:56:09 PM

They need to test everyone at some point IMO.  There's no reason to do rounds of this if a significant amount of the population actually has or had it.  There's more talk about this being around much longer than we realized and more research is showing 25-50% of infected people have no symptoms which means there's no way to tell who is walking around with it feeling normal without testing everyone.  Even now, only the most extreme symptomatic people are getting tested in the US. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 01, 2020, 06:23:03 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 01, 2020, 05:56:09 PM

more research is showing 25-50% of infected people have no symptoms

See, that's what I'm talking about.  Someone upthread (sorry, I don't remember who) suggested that I already have it, and my "non-dry" cough and slightly stuffy nose is all the symptoms I'm gonna see.  Hell, if 25-50% of infected people show no symptoms at all, I can always hope to be one of them.

What I can't imagine doing is spending the next year or so living like this.  Maybe I'll change my mind, maybe some credible evidence could come out that they're close to a cure if we just hang on another month or so, something like that.  I don't know.  No one knows.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 01, 2020, 06:25:50 PM

Saw MP post about this.

https://variety.com/2020/music/news/adam-schlesinger-coronavirus-dead-dies-1203552130/

Guy from Fountains of Wayne died from the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 01, 2020, 07:16:08 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 01, 2020, 05:05:37 PM

Fuck, that blows man.  :tdwn  If you have been Corona'd, I hope it's a mild case.  Those seem to suck ass too, but at least you won't be fighting for hospital space.

We both feel fine, very very minor symptoms. So if it is Corona, hoping it stays like this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 01, 2020, 08:48:19 PM

Hope it stays like that as well, take care brother.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 01, 2020, 09:05:18 PM

So to close out the first day of April, the World-o-meter has it at 935k cases (77k new ones today), so we'll be hitting 1M WW cases tomorrow.  April 2nd.  I posted on March 23rd when we were at 276k worldwide cases we'd be at 1M by the 1st week in April.  Fuck I did not want the math to be right.  The math also says it's only 3 more weeks until it's 10M cases world wide.

I know the Sam Jackson thing was cute and lol-worthy and all, but seriously... STAY THE FUCK HOME (unless you're "essential").

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 01, 2020, 09:16:38 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 01, 2020, 09:05:18 PM

So to close out the first day of April, the World-o-meter has it at 935k cases (77k new ones today), so we'll be hitting 1M WW cases tomorrow.  April 2nd.  I posted on March 23rd when we were at 276k worldwide cases we'd be at 1M by the 1st week in April.  Fuck I did not want the math to be right.  The math also says it's only 3 more weeks until it's 10M cases world wide.

I know the Sam Jackson thing was cute and lol-worthy and all, but seriously... STAY THE FUCK HOME (unless you're "essential").

Not gonna lie, I’m considering walking out of my job because I don’t feel comfortable anymore. Too much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 01, 2020, 09:58:30 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 01, 2020, 09:16:38 PM

Not gonna lie, I’m considering walking out of my job because I don’t feel comfortable anymore. Too much.

I am waiting for this tipping point to hit, where people are walking off the job for concerns over their safety. It's started to happen this week.

I went and got take-out from two of our favorite local places this week. I know they didn't have to be there, but are doing so for their livelihood, and I want to pay them back for it, even if it's only $10 worth of phad thai.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 02, 2020, 01:02:28 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 01, 2020, 05:16:44 PM

Sure, you can take every precaution.  Masks, disinfect everything, sterile practices, etc.

Don't forget gloves of any kind. Don't touch anything that everyone touches such as doorknobs, gates, handrails etc.... masks are ok, but also not touching things exposed to the public and used by everyone can help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 02, 2020, 06:23:50 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 01, 2020, 09:58:30 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 01, 2020, 09:16:38 PM

Not gonna lie, I’m considering walking out of my job because I don’t feel comfortable anymore. Too much.

I am waiting for this tipping point to hit, where people are walking off the job for concerns over their safety. It's started to happen this week.

This has happened at my wife's work. She works at an independent/assisted living facility and there are a lot of people that decided they weren't working.

My wife's doctor has kept her home for the last two weeks as she has an auto immune disease.


Where I work, I feel like the longer this goes, at some point there's going to be a "giant sucking sound" of employees dropping off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 02, 2020, 06:32:28 AM

My company did really well in our 2020 fiscal year, which just ended in March. We're due to get 125% of our bonus percentage as a result (about 19% bonus for me). We're a medical device company, so there shouldn't be much of a slowdown due to the virus outbreak. But I have this terrible feeling they aren't going to give us our bonuses at the end of May as scheduled because our stock is down like everyone else's and due to the uncertain future. I can see them coming up with some excuse. It won't make or break me, but it's a nice chunk of change that I'm really depending on to fund some known future expenses and to beef up my emergency fund just in case I need it. I really hope I'm wrong and they'll go out as scheduled, but I'm nervous.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 02, 2020, 06:46:28 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 02, 2020, 06:32:28 AM

My company did really well in our 2020 fiscal year, which just ended in March. We're due to get 125% of our bonus percentage as a result (about 19% bonus for me). We're a medical device company, so there shouldn't be much of a slowdown due to the virus outbreak. But I have this terrible feeling they aren't going to give us our bonuses at the end of May as scheduled because our stock is down like everyone else's and due to the uncertain future. I can see them coming up with some excuse. It won't make or break me, but it's a nice chunk of change that I'm really depending on to fund some known future expenses and to beef up my emergency fund just in case I need it. I really hope I'm wrong and they'll go out as scheduled, but I'm nervous.

My immediate guess would be that they won't mess with this.  That would be an excellent way to destroy all employee good will, and there would be a flood of people running to new jobs on the other side of this (plus, those staying would not be very motivated).  Employers of highly-skilled workers are generally on a shorter leash with jerking around their employees, because they are toast if they do that...both with the exodus of current employees and inability to recruit new employees when word gets around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 02, 2020, 06:50:30 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 02, 2020, 06:23:50 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 01, 2020, 09:58:30 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 01, 2020, 09:16:38 PM

Not gonna lie, I’m considering walking out of my job because I don’t feel comfortable anymore. Too much.

I am waiting for this tipping point to hit, where people are walking off the job for concerns over their safety. It's started to happen this week.

This has happened at my wife's work. She works at an independent/assisted living facility and there are a lot of people that decided they weren't working.

My wife's doctor has kept her home for the last two weeks as she has an auto immune disease.


Where I work, I feel like the longer this goes, at some point there's going to be a "giant sucking sound" of employees dropping off.

It's stuff like this that makes things even scarier.  If/when any 'essential' workers pass their tipping point of feeling at too much risk, then what are we in store for?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 02, 2020, 06:50:35 AM

Quote from: millahh on April 02, 2020, 06:46:28 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 02, 2020, 06:32:28 AM

My company did really well in our 2020 fiscal year, which just ended in March. We're due to get 125% of our bonus percentage as a result (about 19% bonus for me). We're a medical device company, so there shouldn't be much of a slowdown due to the virus outbreak. But I have this terrible feeling they aren't going to give us our bonuses at the end of May as scheduled because our stock is down like everyone else's and due to the uncertain future. I can see them coming up with some excuse. It won't make or break me, but it's a nice chunk of change that I'm really depending on to fund some known future expenses and to beef up my emergency fund just in case I need it. I really hope I'm wrong and they'll go out as scheduled, but I'm nervous.

My immediate guess would be that they won't mess with this.  That would be an excellent way to destroy all employee good will, and there would be a flood of people running to new jobs on the other side of this (plus, those staying would not be very motivated).  Employers of highly-skilled workers are generally on a shorter leash with jerking around their employees, because they are toast if they do that...both with the exodus of current employees and inability to recruit new employees when word gets around.

I think you're probably correct. I guess I hadn't thought of it from that point of view. Medical device companies appear to be hiring through all of this, especially those that are directly involved with products that are used to fight the virus. So it wouldn't be too difficult for people to leave even now.

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 02, 2020, 06:50:30 AM

It's stuff like this that makes things even scarier.  If/when any 'essential' workers pass their tipping point of feeling at too much risk, then what are we in store for?

There will be others willing to take their place if it's a simple job like checking people out or stocking shelves at the grocery store. People will become more and more desperate as they are out of work and many will be willing to work despite the risks. Skilled labor type jobs will be harder to replace though. I'm sure this will happen to some extent unless more safeguards are put in place.

My company is still running at full and almost everyone needs to be in the office due to the hands-on nature of their jobs. I wouldn't be surprised if they went to a split shift type of situation to reduce the number of people in the office at the same time. Also wouldn't be surprised if they implement a temperature check before entering the building. Sadly, I think it will take someone in the office getting the virus before they get too serious about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 02, 2020, 06:52:46 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 02, 2020, 06:23:50 AM

Where I work, I feel like the longer this goes, at some point there's going to be a "giant sucking sound" of employees dropping off.

I'm pretty sure this happened in my area, just on a smaller scale.  We have a great local pizza shop with 6 locations in various suburbs.  They closed 5 of the locations due to "staffing problems" a week ago.  Our location stayed open.

They put an ad out on Facebook that they were hiring, and a handful of days later, announced that the locations are re-opening tomorrow.  I wouldn't doubt that a lot of the employees said that they weren't coming in anymore, so they had to close and re-staff 5 locations. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 07:56:05 AM

Did you guys see this story? A train engineer purposely derailed a train at full speed with the intent of ramming it into the USS Mercy docked at the Port of Los Angeles with the intent of bringing attention to the govt's hidden agenda...

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/04/01/man-arrested-after-derailing-train-to-attack-usns-mercy-hospital-ship-docked-in-los-angeles-n2566182 (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/04/01/man-arrested-after-derailing-train-to-attack-usns-mercy-hospital-ship-docked-in-los-angeles-n2566182)


I'd suspect as this event really starts to drag on in the coming months, more people are going to become unglued in this manner.


On the positive side of the news, my unemployment got approved and a check was dispersed :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 02, 2020, 08:02:54 AM

My work (and company) has stopped on the 23rd of February, because - of course the arts are not-essential - we both are located in the main red area district and tour the country, plus business won't start again before at least November, since summer touring is strongly compromised. To be honest, what's hurting the most is not the monetary aspect, but the slow but steady shifting from being not-essential to feeling bloody useless, especially when talking with my sister (neurologist) in Spain who is witnessing extreme triage (basically "we cure who has hope to heal, good luck to the others") for 12 hours a day and is forbidden to even hug her wife for comfort once she gets home.

My employees are suffering a bit (although the government is helping as much as it can while the illusion of European Union crumbles), so we've decided to convert the costume laboratory to production of masks for the local hospitals, worked by our taylors on voluntary basis only. I've also frozen my tenants' rents for a couple of months (but I doubt I'll be able to keep that going for too long) and - living in a very isolated countryside with few neighbouring villas owned by old people - my wife and me have basically become the area's grocery fetchers. Still, I can't help feeling useless and I've never felt worse about the fundamentally egotistical and parasitical nature of my job.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 02, 2020, 08:03:58 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 07:56:05 AM

Did you guys see this story? A train engineer purposely derailed a train at full speed with the intent of ramming it into the USS Mercy docked at the Port of Los Angeles with the intent of bringing attention to the govt's hidden agenda...

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/04/01/man-arrested-after-derailing-train-to-attack-usns-mercy-hospital-ship-docked-in-los-angeles-n2566182 (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/04/01/man-arrested-after-derailing-train-to-attack-usns-mercy-hospital-ship-docked-in-los-angeles-n2566182)


I'd suspect as this event really starts to drag on in the coming months, more people are going to become unglued in this manner.

I expect that there's a logical geographical /logistical explanation for this, but how in the blue friggin hell do you even get a TRAIN off the RAILS and over a SHIP??!?!? especially when you're not in a Michael Bay movie?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:15 AM

The tracks were more or less on a course towards the pier, but they end (obviously) short of that.  The engineer figured that a freight train moving a full speed could blow through the barricades at the end of the tracks, which it did, and continue on until it reached the ship.  It fell pretty far short of reaching the ship, and just ended up doing a shipload of property damage.

Attacking the people who are risking their lives trying to help.  Fucking idiot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:36 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 07:56:05 AM

On the positive side of the news, my unemployment got approved and a check was dispersed :)

Congrats!! :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 08:19:24 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:36 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 07:56:05 AM

On the positive side of the news, my unemployment got approved and a check was dispersed :)

Congrats!! :)

Yup, that was the email I woke up to. Not sure how it's going to come though, never been on unemployment before. I was thinking a check would be mailed, but I heard something about a credit card or something. Any Californian got details on this?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:21:39 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:15 AM

The tracks were more or less on a course towards the pier, but they end (obviously) short of that.  The engineer figured that a freight train moving a full speed could blow through the barricades at the end of the tracks, which it did, and continue on until it reached the ship.  It fell pretty far short of reaching the ship, and just ended up doing a shipload of property damage.

Attacking the people who are risking their lives trying to help.  Fucking idiot.

Well-played, my friend.  Well-played. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 08:25:24 AM

I didn't even catch that  :lol


Another interesting one....seems the hyper liberal bay area, inventors of the plastic bag ban and the straw ban, have now done an about face and banned reusable grocery bags at stores.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:27:22 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on April 02, 2020, 08:02:54 AM

My work (and company) has stopped on the 23rd of February, because - of course the arts are not-essential - we both are located in the main red area district and tour the country, plus business won't start again before at least November, since summer touring is strongly compromised. To be honest, what's hurting the most is not the monetary aspect, but the slow but steady shifting from being not-essential to feeling bloody useless, especially when talking with my sister (neurologist) in Spain who is witnessing extreme triage (basically "we cure who has hope to heal, good luck to the others") for 12 hours a day and is forbidden to even hug her wife for comfort once she gets home.

My employees are suffering a bit (although the government is helping as much as it can while the illusion of European Union crumbles), so we've decided to convert the costume laboratory to production of masks for the local hospitals, worked by our taylors on voluntary basis only. I've also frozen my tenants' rents for a couple of months (but I doubt I'll be able to keep that going for too long) and - living in a very isolated countryside with few neighbouring villas owned by old people - my wife and me have basically become the area's grocery fetchers. Still, I can't help feeling useless and I've never felt worse about the fundamentally egotistical and parasitical nature of my job.

I don't know; I'm in a position where the determination of "essential" is part of the daily analysis, and while I understand it on a practical level, when I'm sitting having a glass of wine, rueing my existance and wondering how I got here, it's really a very arbitrary statement.

Where would we be - and where WILL we be, if this continues too long - without the arts?  Without the pleasure and beauty of seeing the world we live in?   The arts have endured as fundamentally "essential" for centuries, and it's not a coincidence that some of our more revered citizens are themselves in the arts.   Entire countries have based their economies on the tourism trade, so there's a market, a need for that offering. 

I would hardly consider that "parasitic".   I think it may just be a matter of urgency (i.e. time) rather than importance.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 02, 2020, 08:41:01 AM

I agree completely with Stadler.  The arts are essential, just in a different way.  In this particular situation, without the arts, stay at home orders would be much more difficult to bear and so much bleaker.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on April 02, 2020, 08:47:47 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 08:19:24 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:36 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 07:56:05 AM

On the positive side of the news, my unemployment got approved and a check was dispersed :)

Congrats!! :)

Yup, that was the email I woke up to. Not sure how it's going to come though, never been on unemployment before. I was thinking a check would be mailed, but I heard something about a credit card or something. Any Californian got details on this?

I can't speak to CA, but here in NJ, when my wife applied yesterday, she had to choose the option of a debit card or put in our checking account info for direct deposit. We went with the latter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 02, 2020, 08:49:37 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 08:19:24 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:36 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 07:56:05 AM

On the positive side of the news, my unemployment got approved and a check was dispersed :)

Congrats!! :)

Yup, that was the email I woke up to. Not sure how it's going to come though, never been on unemployment before. I was thinking a check would be mailed, but I heard something about a credit card or something. Any Californian got details on this?

Don't know about California, but in NY you receive a pre-paid debit card where they would load the money on a weekly basis. I assume it would be the same for California.

EDIT: or as New World Rushman said, maybe you have the option to do Direct Deposit to your personal account.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 02, 2020, 08:52:19 AM

Thank you, Stads and Lethean. That made me feel a little bit better, really.

I guess it's really a matter of this long and indefinite "now" of primal necessities we're facing which screws with seventy years of prosperity and increasingly superflous needs we're accustomed to. Of course, my work will make a couple of people happy once this is over (I can't be "enjoyed" in a not live situation during lockdown) , and I realise my country without arts and tourism would be just a glorified US aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean, but right now my contribution to society is basically "not getting in the way of useful people who heal, build, and feed other people", and it brings a whiff of revisionist guilt.

Nonetheless, thank you! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 02, 2020, 09:01:35 AM

+1 on the arts being essential, I mean how many of us are yearning for a time when we can enjoy a show again?  and how many of us are looking forward to our favorite artists doing their thing in live streams from their home? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 09:07:42 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 02, 2020, 08:49:37 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 08:19:24 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:36 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 07:56:05 AM

On the positive side of the news, my unemployment got approved and a check was dispersed :)

Congrats!! :)

Yup, that was the email I woke up to. Not sure how it's going to come though, never been on unemployment before. I was thinking a check would be mailed, but I heard something about a credit card or something. Any Californian got details on this?

Don't know about California, but in NY you receive a pre-paid debit card where they would load the money on a weekly basis. I assume it would be the same for California.

EDIT: or as New World Rushman said, maybe you have the option to do Direct Deposit to your personal account.

Yeah, upon further research, we get the debit card as well. It's supposed to be mailed within 5 days of my first payment, which was last Monday. This whole not working thing is going to take some getting used to :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 10:22:04 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:21:39 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 08:14:15 AM

The tracks were more or less on a course towards the pier, but they end (obviously) short of that.  The engineer figured that a freight train moving a full speed could blow through the barricades at the end of the tracks, which it did, and continue on until it reached the ship.  It fell pretty far short of reaching the ship, and just ended up doing a shipload of property damage.

Attacking the people who are risking their lives trying to help.  Fucking idiot.

Well-played, my friend.  Well-played. 

Heh heh.  One of those things I toss out there just to see if people are paying attention.  Mostly for my own amusement, but it's also cool that others get a chuckle out of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 02, 2020, 10:37:36 AM

I glazed over it at first, then paused and hit rewind and thought "well done, Bob".   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 02, 2020, 10:48:07 AM

Thanks for the reactions last page, thankfully I am pretty much fever free now! And my lungs feel pretty good too. But all in all it took me two weeks, though initially I thought I just had a massive headache due to whatever. I do hope it was corona, because that would mean I am safe now and able to help during the crisis.

As for my work (which I will be able to do soon again), My usual projects (for the WHO) are pretty much on hold. I work in a big hospital/medical center (not with patients) and they are currently assigning people to different tasks in relation to this crisis. Two people with my function (analyst) are now being trained for corona diagnostics and I will be providing technical support for other diagnostic processes (that align with protocols I was already using). I will also fill in a form that the hospital can use me for whatever they need, be it delivering coffee to the nurses/doctors or something else. Anyways, given the nature of this crisis, I thankfully have a good job security on the long run. 

As for my voluntary work, which is team leader First Aid for the Red Cross, I am unfortunately not allowed to work at other locations than the hospital I work at (with good reason, offcourse). It sucks, because they need people more than ever. One of the reasons is that a lot of help is needed with our refugees (from Syria etc.). They do not have a citizenship and the same rights and will potentially be hit extremely hard because of this as well. So now our first aid volunteers are busy on that front. I hope they will have immunity tests soon, so that I will be able to support the Red Cross as well (if my illness did end up being corona).

Quote from: Elite on April 01, 2020, 01:34:50 AM

Regarding the situation in the Netherlands; I get the feeling our healthcare system is very different from that of other European countries (mainly countries like Italy & Spain), where the goal is to heal basically everybody as soon as possible. Our healthcare system, or maybe our society, is more focused on quality of living, rather than stretching out a life when there's barely any chance for recovery. We're also not prone to place everybody who enters a hospital on the Intensive Care immediately. From what I gathered - and this may be wrong -  is that in Italy, elderly people who already have a lower chance at survival, are put on the Intensive Care beds, essentially filling up places that now can not be used for younger folk, who then die as well. The death toll actually goes up if you try your best to save people with little chance, by not having the resources to aid those with a higher chance to survive. Sounds pretty terrible to type stuff like that out, but in these situations, I think the health care's goal should not be about saving everybody, because that's impossible - it should be about healing as many people as possible and, harsh as it sounds, this includes not using all your resources on people who are going to die anyway.

^ I don't know if that came across in the right way and I truly do not mean to offend anyone with it. I am not a healthcare worker (teacher here), but I have many friends that are. The situation in our hospitals right now is not nice, but the way our healthcare is organised - like I said, quality of life before prolongation - has actually made the situation more managable here as far as I can tell.

Indeed, as for the Netherlands, I think this is accurate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 02, 2020, 10:58:43 AM

Glad you are feeling better  :tup

My first time in a full week out of the house and at work to get a few things done this afternoon.  Just so weird being on the empty streets and empty work building.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 10:59:28 AM

Glad you're feeling better bud!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 11:15:22 AM

Very glad you're feeling better! :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 02, 2020, 11:16:40 AM

Glad you're feeling better!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 02, 2020, 11:20:49 AM

Glad everything's ok!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 02, 2020, 11:27:10 AM

Siskel and Ebert to ya ErHaO

(https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p960x960/90676720_10213704636729409_1767176006315016192_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=dd7718&_nc_ohc=8J3Kcrvzz0MAX8ffylz&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&_nc_tp=6&oh=7f337fa33cf720e8c7d3217cf77fe7e6&oe=5EAAE3AB)

It's not quite THAT simple, but the point is the less people move, the less the virus spreads.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 02, 2020, 11:41:02 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on April 02, 2020, 10:48:07 AM

Thanks for the reactions last page, thankfully I am pretty much fever free now! And my lungs feel pretty good too. But all in all it took me two weeks, though initially I thought I just had a massive headache due to whatever.

SO glad you are feeling better, dude.  That's great!

Quote from: ErHaO on April 02, 2020, 10:48:07 AM

I do hope it was corona, because that would mean I am safe now and able to help during the crisis.

Even if it was confirmed to be, you should still be VERY careful and not drop your guard.  I'm not a doctor, so I may be a bit off on this, but as I understand it, with ANY cold (not just this one), just because you catch it and recover does not mean you have complete immunity.  It only means you have developed some level of immunity, and it is still possible to catch the same strain, and develop symptoms and/or be a carrier, again.  So PLEASE play it safe!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 02, 2020, 12:05:05 PM

Seriously....what Bosk said. 

I believe I've seen some reports that there is more than one strain of this, and doctors are not yet positive that you can't get it twice.  There are reports of people getting it twice that are still under investigation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 12:18:16 PM

Another update on people you don't know:

Our guitarist David is out of the ICU and breathing much better now.  His wife is still in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 02, 2020, 12:28:42 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 12:18:16 PM

Another update on people you don't know:

Our guitarist David is out of the ICU and breathing much better now.  His wife is still in.

That's awesome.   I wish everyone a full and speedy recovery. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on April 02, 2020, 12:56:34 PM

Was very surprised, on April 1st my company issued their official policy of giving two weeks extra emergency paid sick leave to anyone diagnosed with coronavirus or told to quarantine due to immediate exposure. And of course the immediate result was our stock tanking ~15%.

My question is what the hell they are going to do if one of us does get it an potentially exposes others.

I run two facilities, and beside myself there are two administrators (who can't do many crucial things) and four other funeral directors. If all the funeral directors get asked to stay home or work from home we literally cannot operate. Hopefully I don't have to see what happens, but I often worry about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 02, 2020, 01:02:58 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 12:18:16 PM

Another update on people you don't know:

Our guitarist David is out of the ICU and breathing much better now.  His wife is still in.

But are the singers okay?

(Just a little levity; I'm glad things are looking up for your freind; here's hoping his wife follows suit.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 02, 2020, 01:46:34 PM

@RJ

It gets put on a debit card via Bank of America. The card should arrive via mail within a week of the first payment being released.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 01:59:15 PM

This Hobby Lobby guy really needs to grow a brain. Tired of him defying orders in favor of 'god's will'.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/hobby-lobby-keeps-disobeying-state-stay-at-home-orders-arts-and-crafts.html

Several states are having to waste time fighting this company to stay closed when they could be focusing on other things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 02:39:48 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 01:59:15 PM

This Hobby Lobby guy really needs to grow a brain. Tired of him defying orders in favor of 'god's will'.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/hobby-lobby-keeps-disobeying-state-stay-at-home-orders-arts-and-crafts.html

Several states are having to waste time fighting this company to stay closed when they could be focusing on other things.

Although I certainly agree that Hobby Lobby is being very careless and I whole heartedly condemn that sort of business practice, I also disagree with the assumption the article made that they are doing this because of their interpretation of the will of God.

Nowhere in the article does Hobby Lobby specifically state they are doing this out of some religious mission.  That is a cherry picked quote that Slate used at the end of the article.  It sounds to me that Hobby Lobby was just trying to comunicate comfort to it's employees during a difficult time.  I am not a fan of agenda driven journalism.

And, ProfessorPeart, I also want you to know that I'm not arguing with you, I'm arguing with how the article is written.  What Hobby Lobby is doing makes me angry as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on April 02, 2020, 03:07:26 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 02:39:48 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 01:59:15 PM

This Hobby Lobby guy really needs to grow a brain. Tired of him defying orders in favor of 'god's will'.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/hobby-lobby-keeps-disobeying-state-stay-at-home-orders-arts-and-crafts.html

Several states are having to waste time fighting this company to stay closed when they could be focusing on other things.

Although I certainly agree that Hobby Lobby is being very careless and I whole heartedly condemn that sort of business practice, I also disagree with the assumption the article made that they are doing this because of their interpretation of the will of God.

Nowhere in the article does Hobby Lobby specifically state they are doing this out of some religious mission.  That is a cherry picked quote that Slate used at the end of the article.  It sounds to me that Hobby Lobby was just trying to comunicate comfort to it's employees during a difficult time.  I am not a fan of agenda driven journalism.

And, ProfessorPeart, I also want you to know that I'm not arguing with you, I'm arguing with how the article is written.  What Hobby Lobby is doing makes me angry as well.

I did not see that assumption or claim made in the article.  The article does not suggest the quote is the motivation for the actions.  That link is an assumption made by the reader, not the writer.

EDIT: And I think it is stupid what he is doing regardless of the reasons.  But history shows the reasons probably have some religious component IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 03:10:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 02, 2020, 01:02:58 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 12:18:16 PM

Another update on people you don't know:

Our guitarist David is out of the ICU and breathing much better now.  His wife is still in.

But are the singers okay?

(Just a little levity; I'm glad things are looking up for your freind; here's hoping his wife follows suit.)

A bunch of emails have gone around, and neither of the singers have said anything recently.  So your question didn't actually strike me as out of place.  Oddly spot on, actually.  I haven't from either of them in a while.

The girls both joined the band relatively recently, and have only played a couple of "partial gigs" (one set each) with us, whereas the rest of us have been playing together 3-5 years or more.  So the rest of us are a lot closer, I guess, and with literally everything on hold for now, everyone has other stuff to think about.  But I am a bit worried about one of them, who has a variety of other medical issues.  The other doesn't communicate much anyway.  So it's not really odd, pretty much in character actually.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 02, 2020, 01:46:34 PM

@RJ

It gets out on a debit card via Bank of America. The card should arrive via mail within a week of the first payment being released.

Thanks for the follow up brother, I figured it out on my own eventually. I'm just old and slow. :lol

You guys please take care man. :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 03:45:53 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on April 02, 2020, 03:07:26 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 02:39:48 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 01:59:15 PM

This Hobby Lobby guy really needs to grow a brain. Tired of him defying orders in favor of 'god's will'.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/hobby-lobby-keeps-disobeying-state-stay-at-home-orders-arts-and-crafts.html

Several states are having to waste time fighting this company to stay closed when they could be focusing on other things.

Although I certainly agree that Hobby Lobby is being very careless and I whole heartedly condemn that sort of business practice, I also disagree with the assumption the article made that they are doing this because of their interpretation of the will of God.

Nowhere in the article does Hobby Lobby specifically state they are doing this out of some religious mission.  That is a cherry picked quote that Slate used at the end of the article.  It sounds to me that Hobby Lobby was just trying to comunicate comfort to it's employees during a difficult time.  I am not a fan of agenda driven journalism.

And, ProfessorPeart, I also want you to know that I'm not arguing with you, I'm arguing with how the article is written.  What Hobby Lobby is doing makes me angry as well.

I did not see that assumption or claim made in the article.  The article does not suggest the quote is the motivation for the actions.  That link is an assumption made by the reader, not the writer.

EDIT: And I think it is stupid what he is doing regardless of the reasons.  But history shows the reasons probably have some religious component IMO.

Sorry, I was quoting other articles I have seen about this. They have been in the news for a slew of issues and complaints, leaked memos' etc.

The communication to staff came days after the arts-and-crafts company’s founder David Green sent a letter to reassure employees, saying God “will guide us through this storm.”

Green’s letter to employees dated March 19 said his wife, Barbara, had received a message from God telling the chain to stay open.

“We serve a God who will Guide us through this storm, who will Guard us as we travel to places never seen before, and who, as a result of this experience, will Groom us to be better than we could have ever thought possible before now,” according to The Christian Post.

One of many articles you can find on the subject.

https://www.ajc.com/news/hobby-lobby-accused-reopening-several-stores-defiance-shutdown-orders/rbUort7S1rbEJGhnAx9rkI/

EDIT: This just goes in line with all of the stories I keep reading of pastors violating the order and holding church services. They really seem to have a hard time grasping this. We had a pastor die up here and some 40+ people in another congregation all come down with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 02, 2020, 04:02:01 PM

I live in Utah where all the Mormon churches and temples are closed until further notice. The liquor stores are all still open though. Strange times, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 04:20:40 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 03:45:53 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on April 02, 2020, 03:07:26 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 02:39:48 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 01:59:15 PM

This Hobby Lobby guy really needs to grow a brain. Tired of him defying orders in favor of 'god's will'.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/hobby-lobby-keeps-disobeying-state-stay-at-home-orders-arts-and-crafts.html

Several states are having to waste time fighting this company to stay closed when they could be focusing on other things.

Although I certainly agree that Hobby Lobby is being very careless and I whole heartedly condemn that sort of business practice, I also disagree with the assumption the article made that they are doing this because of their interpretation of the will of God.

Nowhere in the article does Hobby Lobby specifically state they are doing this out of some religious mission.  That is a cherry picked quote that Slate used at the end of the article.  It sounds to me that Hobby Lobby was just trying to comunicate comfort to it's employees during a difficult time.  I am not a fan of agenda driven journalism.

And, ProfessorPeart, I also want you to know that I'm not arguing with you, I'm arguing with how the article is written.  What Hobby Lobby is doing makes me angry as well.

I did not see that assumption or claim made in the article.  The article does not suggest the quote is the motivation for the actions.  That link is an assumption made by the reader, not the writer.

EDIT: And I think it is stupid what he is doing regardless of the reasons.  But history shows the reasons probably have some religious component IMO.

Sorry, I was quoting other articles I have seen about this. They have been in the news for a slew of issues and complaints, leaked memos' etc.

The communication to staff came days after the arts-and-crafts company’s founder David Green sent a letter to reassure employees, saying God “will guide us through this storm.”

Green’s letter to employees dated March 19 said his wife, Barbara, had received a message from God telling the chain to stay open.

“We serve a God who will Guide us through this storm, who will Guard us as we travel to places never seen before, and who, as a result of this experience, will Groom us to be better than we could have ever thought possible before now,” according to The Christian Post.

One of many articles you can find on the subject.

https://www.ajc.com/news/hobby-lobby-accused-reopening-several-stores-defiance-shutdown-orders/rbUort7S1rbEJGhnAx9rkI/

EDIT: This just goes in line with all of the stories I keep reading of pastors violating the order and holding church services. They really seem to have a hard time grasping this. We had a pastor die up here and some 40+ people in another congregation all come down with it.

Well, I stand corrected.  Thanks for the added context and info ProfessorPeart.  Being a religious man myself, I STRONGLY disapprove of people doing this kind of junk in the name of God.  It makes me sick actually.

My church has had all it's buildings closed for the past month and told all of us members to have our own church at home until all this passes.  We aren't having any activities, youth groups, anything.  That, in my opinion, is how religious ferver responds responsibly and Christlke.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 04:25:00 PM

Quote from: Podaar on April 02, 2020, 04:02:01 PM

I live in Utah where all the Mormon churches and temples are closed until further notice. The liquor stores are all still open though. Strange times, man.

I had this discussion with recovery friends of mine, and liquor has to be available. Last thing we need in the middle of this health crisis is alcoholics (and there are so many more than any of us can imagine) going into withdrawal, and alcoholic withdrawal is a horrific experience which can be very deadly. I'm not sure if that's the thinking behind it, but it's for sure a repurcussion if they close them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 02, 2020, 04:34:24 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 02, 2020, 04:25:00 PM

Quote from: Podaar on April 02, 2020, 04:02:01 PM

I live in Utah where all the Mormon churches and temples are closed until further notice. The liquor stores are all still open though. Strange times, man.

I had this discussion with recovery friends of mine, and liquor has to be available. Last thing we need in the middle of this health crisis is alcoholics (and there are so many more than any of us can imagine) going into withdrawal, and alcoholic withdrawal is a horrific experience which can be very deadly. I'm not sure if that's the thinking behind it, but it's for sure a repurcussion if they close them.

That's a fair point but I think it's just as simple as people are bored and alcohol will help keep people home.  I say this as I drink a margarita now that I am home. 

I stopped at Target which is next to where I work since it was my first time outside the house in a full week and I think I was the only one without a face mask. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 02, 2020, 04:37:10 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 04:20:40 PM

Well, I stand corrected.  Thanks for the added context and info ProfessorPeart.  Being a religious man myself, I STRONGLY disapprove of people doing this kind of junk in the name of God.  It makes me sick actually.

My church has had all it's buildings closed for the past month and told all of us members to have our own church at home until all this passes.  We aren't having any activities, youth groups, anything.  That, in my opinion, is how religious ferver responds responsibly and Christlke.

Yeah, I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, religious or otherwise. But there has to come a time when common sense overrides everything else. This is not the time to keep your crafts store open all because God told your wife to during a pandemic.

Not to mention all of the other things we are seeing coming out from that chain where they seem to be trying to stiff their employees. It gives the appearance, at least to me, that they are using religion as a guise to make sure they keep the money coming in. Not very godlike, in my opinion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 02, 2020, 04:52:26 PM

I recently saw a pastor of one of those large megachurches say the reason they had cancelled services (they are doing them online now) is because the lord gave them brains for a reason.  To use them.  I thought that was a pretty good line. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 02, 2020, 04:58:41 PM

It's also not just Christians. In Israel, while the head Rabbis have all said to stop, a lot of the ultra-Orthodox communities are trying (very hard) to have business as usual. Government is finally stepping in, but decided not to for a long time cause it would cost them political points. Lovely stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 02, 2020, 05:10:32 PM

It angers me that people are knowingly putting others at risk.  Or worse yet, denying this is even a real problem.  The conspiracy theorists are out in droves on social media.  It is so fucking scary how incredibly stupid some people are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 02, 2020, 05:11:53 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 02, 2020, 04:58:41 PM

It's also not just Christians. In Israel, while the head Rabbis have all said to stop, a lot of the ultra-Orthodox communities are trying (very hard) to have business as usual. Government is finally stepping in, but decided not to for a long time cause it would cost them political points. Lovely stuff.

The hasidic jewish communities in NJ are completely disregarding the laws.  Cops are having to break up their parties.  I feel so bad for the cops who have to deal with this stuff, there's so many more important things than having to tell people to stop gathering.  https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/heres-why-large-gatherings-keep-happening-in-lakewood-as-the-coronavirus-rages-in-nj.html (https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/heres-why-large-gatherings-keep-happening-in-lakewood-as-the-coronavirus-rages-in-nj.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 02, 2020, 05:13:17 PM

Yea, the super ultra orthodox piss me off to no end. In any country.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 05:19:00 PM

Our church cancelled services two weeks before the official shutdown, and has been holding services online.  Our pastor basically sits there in her house, talks, does the readings, all that good stuff, and people watch over the Internet.  I'm sure we're not the only ones doing it that way.

This whole "God will see us through" and "God will protect us" just reminds me of the story about the guy in the flood.  He ignored the warnings on the news, told the guys in the boat trying to rescue him that "God will save him" and told the guys in the helicopter the same thing.  When he got to Heaven, he complained to St. Peter that he thought God would save him.  St. Peter said "We gave you warnings, sent a boat, and even a helicopter.  What else did you want us to do?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 02, 2020, 06:10:43 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 02, 2020, 11:41:02 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on April 02, 2020, 10:48:07 AM

Thanks for the reactions last page, thankfully I am pretty much fever free now! And my lungs feel pretty good too. But all in all it took me two weeks, though initially I thought I just had a massive headache due to whatever.

SO glad you are feeling better, dude.  That's great!

Quote from: ErHaO on April 02, 2020, 10:48:07 AM

I do hope it was corona, because that would mean I am safe now and able to help during the crisis.

Even if it was confirmed to be, you should still be VERY careful and not drop your guard.  I'm not a doctor, so I may be a bit off on this, but as I understand it, with ANY cold (not just this one), just because you catch it and recover does not mean you have complete immunity.  It only means you have developed some level of immunity, and it is still possible to catch the same strain, and develop symptoms and/or be a carrier, again.  So PLEASE play it safe!

Quote from: jammindude on April 02, 2020, 12:05:05 PM

Seriously....what Bosk said. 

I believe I've seen some reports that there is more than one strain of this, and doctors are not yet positive that you can't get it twice.  There are reports of people getting it twice that are still under investigation.

Yes, that is a very good point and valid concern! I must not be too enhousiastic, even if I have had it, because in the end I am also an asthma patient, so I am in a risk group.

In general, I will follow the advice of my own supervisor at work and the general guidelines of my workplace (which are updated daily now). My supervisor also oversees the diagnostic testing of many pathogens (and some her direct colleagues will be working on corona), so if tests arrive, she will be up to date. Especially in a hospital setting they will want to test their employees if they are immune, if such a test arrives. But all of this will take time.

And yes, there are variants of the virus with slightly different genetics out there right now. But from what I gather, these genetic differences so far have been minimal. But then again, the mechanisms of this virus are poorly understood, so the exact effects are likely unknown and to be determined. I pray this virus does not have a strong antigenic drift.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on April 02, 2020, 06:25:02 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on April 02, 2020, 04:20:40 PM

My church has had all it's buildings closed for the past month and told all of us members to have our own church at home until all this passes.  We aren't having any activities, youth groups, anything.  That, in my opinion, is how religious ferver responds responsibly and Christlke.

Yep, this is a rather tough decision for churches to do, especially around the Lent/Easter period, but they know to be responsible when it comes to the well-being of their communities which should be more important than everyone gathering in an area at once to hear the messages because apparently God says it's a sin to do otherwise.

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 05:19:00 PM

Our church cancelled services two weeks before the official shutdown, and has been holding services online.  Our pastor basically sits there in her house, talks, does the readings, all that good stuff, and people watch over the Internet.  I'm sure we're not the only ones doing it that way.

This whole "God will see us through" and "God will protect us" just reminds me of the story about the guy in the flood.  He ignored the warnings on the news, told the guys in the boat trying to rescue him that "God will save him" and told the guys in the helicopter the same thing.  When he got to Heaven, he complained to St. Peter that he thought God would save him.  St. Peter said "We gave you warnings, sent a boat, and even a helicopter.  What else did you want us to do?"

Exactly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 02, 2020, 07:19:51 PM

Second case confirmed in my town today. Foot traffic at work is almost back to normal and I am getting nervous. Judging by all the cars on the road today I fear everyone thought this was like a temporary thing or they all think they won't get it, because it only seemed to keep people inside for all of 2 days. Sigh

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 02, 2020, 08:23:13 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 02, 2020, 07:19:51 PM

Second case confirmed in my town today. Foot traffic at work is almost back to normal and I am getting nervous. Judging by all the cars on the road today I fear everyone thought this was like a temporary thing or they all think they won't get it, because it only seemed to keep people inside for all of 2 days. Sigh

Stay safe, it looks like this is gonna drag all across the country for a few months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 02, 2020, 08:25:14 PM

So... the virus in prisons/jails is starting to become an issue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: black_biff_stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:26:27 PM

One of the biggest issues is that a powerful American authority figure downplayed this from jump street so many of that "person"'s followers have used that as a permanent excuse to fight for "muh freedom" and won't do shit to help prevent its spread until a cop holds them at gun point and says "Go home or go to jail."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 02, 2020, 08:31:18 PM

Those people would feel that way regardless of who is in the big chair.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 02, 2020, 08:32:32 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 02, 2020, 08:31:18 PM

Those people would feel that way regardless of who is in the big chair.

Some. But not the people Floyd’s referring to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: black_biff_stadler on April 02, 2020, 09:39:02 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 02, 2020, 08:31:18 PM

Those people would feel that way regardless of who is in the big chair.

Yes and no. They would still be belligerent dumb fucks, no doubt, but 45 is like a folk hero to them so they get riled up and fervent over anything that they feel helps them assert dominance, intimidate others, or generally get at others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 02, 2020, 09:40:14 PM

There are people who, absolutely non-jokingly, said that the whole thing was a hoax to make Trump look bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 03, 2020, 01:55:27 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 02, 2020, 09:40:14 PM

There are people who, absolutely non-jokingly, said that the whole thing was a hoax to make Trump look bad.

I saw reported a tweet of a random teen girl who said "My mum said that maybe this lockdown is God's message to me to not spend so much time out.... so sorry everyone, this global pandemic it's my fault for going to parties, my bad"  :lol  :facepalm:


Anyway, if you like graphics and you're curious to see how the moblity has changed, Google spied us all (but anonymously) and offered a lot of statistis about it:

https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 03, 2020, 03:47:32 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 03, 2020, 01:55:27 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 02, 2020, 09:40:14 PM

There are people who, absolutely non-jokingly, said that the whole thing was a hoax to make Trump look bad.

I saw reported a tweet of a random teen girl who said "My mum said that maybe this lockdown is God's message to me to not spend so much time out.... so sorry everyone, this global pandemic it's my fault for going to parties, my bad"  :lol  :facepalm:


Anyway, if you like graphics and you're curious to see how the moblity has changed, Google spied us all (but anonymously) and offered a lot of statistis about it:

https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/

that's so Monty Pythonian in more ways than one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 03, 2020, 06:20:44 AM

Fascinating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 03, 2020, 06:28:42 AM

We have a contract with the county police fixing a bunch of their cars. Champaign just confirmed a cop has COVID-19. Now I am panicking about them potentially spreading it to us. They just dropped a car off this week. I'm going to have a panic attack again. I can feel it.

TGIF.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 03, 2020, 06:34:45 AM

Damn dude. If you have to drive the vehicle, lots of hand washing ... don’t touch ur face

And for those that haven’t seen why hand washing is the 2nd best defence (physical distancing being the best), this helped me grasp it.

https://youtu.be/-LKVUarhtvE

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 03, 2020, 06:40:01 AM

I have to fucking deep clean every car that comes in. Wearing my N95 and gloves all day starting now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 03, 2020, 06:42:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 03, 2020, 06:40:01 AM

I have to fucking deep clean every car that comes in. Wearing my N95 and gloves all day starting now.

Fuck.   :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on April 03, 2020, 07:07:58 AM

I'm going to try working from home on Monday. We'll see how it goes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 03, 2020, 07:36:19 AM

Working from home is awesome if you have a job you can do remotely.  The other day, my wife and I finally went for a walk, and I realized that I hadn't put my jeans and shoes on for two weeks.  Been in sweats and slippers all day, every day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 07:43:26 AM

Quote from: black_biff_stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:26:27 PM

One of the biggest issues is that a powerful American authority figure downplayed this from jump street so many of that "person"'s followers have used that as a permanent excuse to fight for "muh freedom" and won't do shit to help prevent its spread until a cop holds them at gun point and says "Go home or go to jail."

Please.   Those spring breakers are hardly Trump's demographic.   I live in a very blue state and there are PLENTY of people here that would vote for [name your odious option] over Donald Trump and didn't give fuck one about the suggestions and guidelines until Ned Lamont, our governor, said "ENOUGH". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 03, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 07:43:26 AM

Quote from: black_biff_stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:26:27 PM

One of the biggest issues is that a powerful American authority figure downplayed this from jump street so many of that "person"'s followers have used that as a permanent excuse to fight for "muh freedom" and won't do shit to help prevent its spread until a cop holds them at gun point and says "Go home or go to jail."

Please.   Those spring breakers are hardly Trump's demographic.   I live in a very blue state and there are PLENTY of people here that would vote for [name your odious option] over Donald Trump and didn't give fuck one about the suggestions and guidelines until Ned Lamont, our governor, said "ENOUGH".

Again, he specifically said his followers, not everybody in America that didn't follow the guidelines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 07:58:25 AM

I've been in a bit of a tough spot lately with this whole thing.

Forgive me if there is a bit of "info dump" here, but I can't think of a short way to sum this up.  It's just too much.

For about 2 years now, I've been helping and giving spiritual guidance to a good friend.  He has been engaged to my wife's niece for several years and living with her for the past 6 or 7 years.  (she's family...and we do love her dearly...but she is "Jerry Springer" levels of drama, baggage, and temperament).   He lost his job at Microsoft several years ago when he started having more problems with his diabetes.   They "eliminated his position".    Due to complications from his diabetes, he lost all kidney function, has gone about 80-90% blind, and has even suffered from stroke and now walks with a cane.   He's 41 years old and used to play fullback in high school football.

Sometime around February, he approached me about helping him move out. The relationship with my wife's niece had gone south and he wanted to move forward with his life.   But there are many many things he can't do for himself, so he sought out my help.  I (and several friends from my congregation) helped him get rid of some debts, and helped him with the paperwork to get into a new apartment his mom had found for him.     The elders from my congregation even gave me some money so we could get him some furniture for his new apartment.   

He moved into the new place on March 7th, just as we were starting to hear that COVID might be getting serious in Washington.  Emerald City Comicon had *just* been cancelled the day before and social distancing was starting to become a more serious thing. My wife and I had had tickets to attend the Comicon, but when it got cancelled we decided to use the extended time off to go to a cabin at the ocean instead.    Sunday the 8th, I took my friend to IKEA so he could pick out a bed and wardrobe for his apartment.  But I didn't have anyone to help me carry all the stuff, and rather than hassle with delivery, I promised my friend we would take care of the whole thing as soon as my wife and I got back from the ocean.  (because....who knew?)

It was while we were at the ocean that weekend that everything started to become extremely serious.  We spent half the time watching the TV as everything started to become far more grim than what we had originally thought.   I went to work the next week, but by the end of the week, I asked for a layoff because of *several* exposures at work and questionable conditions at my jobsite.  It was granted. But now I was in a quandary.   My very good friend has moved into a 260 sq ft apt in south Seattle, he's alone with nothing but a dresser and an air mattress, he's in a high risk group, I've been at a job site with potential exposure, he's got a mother and an aunt who are limited in how much they can help (for reasons I didn't pry into) but those are his only family in the area.  Part of me helping him move out was to help him get a cell phone...but he has trouble using it.   I was going to help him get it set up a little better....but then ALL THIS happened.  We were able to trade a few texts messages, but I could tell he was having difficulty.

Since no one in my family is showing any symptoms (I say that...but I've always had a bit of a dry cough anyway...I'm a construction worker with dust allergies, so that just seems like a normal thing.  But I'm not running a fever) I finally decided to just take some extra hand sanitizer and other extra precautions and just go see how he was doing yesterday.   In spite of all the warnings, I just felt like I couldn't just abandon him to four walls.   He's doing OK, and he occasionally has a couple of friends check on him, but he's not really getting the care he needs. 

At this point, in spite of everything, I'm seriously considering having him stay with my family for the next month.  It would require moving a high risk person into my home...which in some ways seems to go against the whole "quarantine" thing, but I just don't know what else to do.    We do have a guest room (we've been using it for storage, but it has a bed and we would just need a day to clean it up).   

I've literally lost several nights sleep worrying about my friend, and I go back and forth in my mind about whether I should have any personal contact with him or not.    Today is 2 weeks since I asked for my lay off, so the chances would seem remote that anyone in my house has it.   But I just keep thinking about him being high risk, and I can't guarantee with 100% certainty that one or all of us (four in my house already) aren't asymptomatic carriers.   The likelihood is extremely low by now, but it's not zero either.  And with his existing health problems, there is a very real possibility that he could die if he does get it.   But he's getting contact from *other* people that need to check on him too.   So in some ways, coming to my house would probably get him the care he needs and limit his contact to only the 4 people in the house.   So would that be better?   I don't know.   It's now 7am and I've been up for 2 hours because I can't sleep.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 03, 2020, 08:06:54 AM

Damn, that's a tough situation.  My first inclination would be more of the concern that *he* may be an asymptomatic carrier, and the risk to you/your family. Even if you are 100% confident he isn't, that doesn't mean he isn't.  Now, I say all of this as mrs.jingle and I have extended an invitation to her mother to stay with us - for a variety of reasons it would lower MIL's risk of infection.  So basically, I have no good advice to extend.   :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 03, 2020, 08:28:04 AM

If it was me, I think I would take him in. You would actually be providing him with a more controlled environment for which to care for him until this blows over. Sure, there are risks, but it seems like the right thing to do to me. Just my opinion and feeling, of course.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 03, 2020, 08:30:10 AM

It's a really difficult situation to be in.  Your first responsibility is to your family, so I would talk to them first and make sure they are ok with it and accepting of the risk.  If so, do the same with him.  If all parties are in agreement and understand that there are no guarantees, I think that's about the best you can do.  To me, as an outside observer, it just seems like the bottom line is that he needs help and, assuming your family is on board, you are in a position to offer that help.

I really feel for you being in that situation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 03, 2020, 08:43:31 AM

Almost every department in our facility has now been converted
into a Covid unit. Rapid response every 15'ish minutes. Code blue every 60'ish
minutes. Fear, anxiety, tears, chaos. Virus is a relentless beast.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 07:43:26 AM

Quote from: black_biff_stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:26:27 PM

One of the biggest issues is that a powerful American authority figure downplayed this from jump street so many of that "person"'s followers have used that as a permanent excuse to fight for "muh freedom" and won't do shit to help prevent its spread until a cop holds them at gun point and says "Go home or go to jail."

Please.   Those spring breakers are hardly Trump's demographic.   I live in a very blue state and there are PLENTY of people here that would vote for [name your odious option] over Donald Trump and didn't give fuck one about the suggestions and guidelines until Ned Lamont, our governor, said "ENOUGH".

Again, he specifically said his followers, not everybody in America that didn't follow the guidelines.

He said "one of the biggest issues is [the President and his the followers]".  My point is that that's an unnecessary qualification.  One of the biggest issues is ANYONE that decides they personally are more important than the collective.   If we're inclined to point fingers and agree that "carelessness" is the "biggest issue", I don't care if it's Christians, Jews, Republicans, deplorables, libtards, or buff bitches showing off their new boobies and bikini six-pack, if you're putting YOUR personal concern higher than the group at this point, you're "the biggest issue".

In my opinion, I think there is flexibility to how the controls are put into place, but to narrow down to groups takes the focus OFF the primary issue - that we all have a key role to play - and allows absolution for those that don't have anything better to blame. 

(Full disclosure; I'm dealing with an ex-family member that isn't part of any of these groups, and he's putting 10's if not 100's of people in danger having "COVID parties" in his basement; we had to get counsel involved at great cost to us to limit my stepson's visitation because he and my daughter are technically high risk people due to their asthma.  It's not about "God", or "45" or anything other than him being a dick.  I'm not giving this guy any chance to say "well, I'm not THAT guy.")

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 03, 2020, 10:04:03 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

He said "one of the biggest issues is [the President and his the followers]".  My point is that that's an unnecessary qualification.  One of the biggest issues is ANYONE that decides they personally are more important than the collective.   If we're inclined to point fingers and agree that "carelessness" is the "biggest issue", I don't care if it's Christians, Jews, Republicans, deplorables, libtards, or buff bitches showing off their new boobies and bikini six-pack, if you're putting YOUR personal concern higher than the group at this point, you're "the biggest issue".

Libtards?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 03, 2020, 10:09:17 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 07:43:26 AM

Quote from: black_biff_stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:26:27 PM

One of the biggest issues is that a powerful American authority figure downplayed this from jump street so many of that "person"'s followers have used that as a permanent excuse to fight for "muh freedom" and won't do shit to help prevent its spread until a cop holds them at gun point and says "Go home or go to jail."

Please.   Those spring breakers are hardly Trump's demographic.   I live in a very blue state and there are PLENTY of people here that would vote for [name your odious option] over Donald Trump and didn't give fuck one about the suggestions and guidelines until Ned Lamont, our governor, said "ENOUGH".

Again, he specifically said his followers, not everybody in America that didn't follow the guidelines.

He said "one of the biggest issues is [the President and his the followers]".  My point is that that's an unnecessary qualification.  One of the biggest issues is ANYONE that decides they personally are more important than the collective.   If we're inclined to point fingers and agree that "carelessness" is the "biggest issue", I don't care if it's Christians, Jews, Republicans, deplorables, libtards, or buff bitches showing off their new boobies and bikini six-pack, if you're putting YOUR personal concern higher than the group at this point, you're "the biggest issue".

In my opinion, I think there is flexibility to how the controls are put into place, but to narrow down to groups takes the focus OFF the primary issue - that we all have a key role to play - and allows absolution for those that don't have anything better to blame. 

(Full disclosure; I'm dealing with an ex-family member that isn't part of any of these groups, and he's putting 10's if not 100's of people in danger having "COVID parties" in his basement; we had to get counsel involved at great cost to us to limit my stepson's visitation because he and my daughter are technically high risk people due to their asthma.  It's not about "God", or "45" or anything other than him being a dick.  I'm not giving this guy any chance to say "well, I'm not THAT guy.")

Sure, plenty of people are dumb and irresponsible. A large amount of those, especially in the south, are people who basically worship Trump and their actions are directly connected to Trump's downplaying of the whole thing until very recently. Pretty sure that's what black biff stadler is getting at.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 03, 2020, 10:21:05 AM

I Think is not denying that a group of people not following safety measures fall into that group, but there is also a large group of people that don't follow safety measures and don't "worship" trump.

And if that is the case, why use that label to refer to them? There are a bunch of people in NYC who are not following safety measures. At the beginning, DiBlasio and Cuomo were downplaying the situation. Saying that people in NYC are not following safety measures because of DiBlasio and Cuomo is not a correct statement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 10:25:23 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on April 03, 2020, 10:04:03 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

He said "one of the biggest issues is [the President and his the followers]".  My point is that that's an unnecessary qualification.  One of the biggest issues is ANYONE that decides they personally are more important than the collective.   If we're inclined to point fingers and agree that "carelessness" is the "biggest issue", I don't care if it's Christians, Jews, Republicans, deplorables, libtards, or buff bitches showing off their new boobies and bikini six-pack, if you're putting YOUR personal concern higher than the group at this point, you're "the biggest issue".

Libtards?

Yes; it was meant to lampoon the very thing I'm arguing against, that is, making this an "us versus them" argument (and offset by the equally offensive, and equally ridiculous, "deplorable" label).  Trying to estimate whether there are more Trump fans or Bernie fans or whatever acting stupid does NOTHING to get us a) acting safer, b) trouble shoot the process, or c) bring this country together.  All it does do is salve tropes and act as confirmation for our bias. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 10:26:59 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 03, 2020, 10:09:17 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 07:43:26 AM

Quote from: black_biff_stadler on April 02, 2020, 08:26:27 PM

One of the biggest issues is that a powerful American authority figure downplayed this from jump street so many of that "person"'s followers have used that as a permanent excuse to fight for "muh freedom" and won't do shit to help prevent its spread until a cop holds them at gun point and says "Go home or go to jail."

Please.   Those spring breakers are hardly Trump's demographic.   I live in a very blue state and there are PLENTY of people here that would vote for [name your odious option] over Donald Trump and didn't give fuck one about the suggestions and guidelines until Ned Lamont, our governor, said "ENOUGH".

Again, he specifically said his followers, not everybody in America that didn't follow the guidelines.

He said "one of the biggest issues is [the President and his the followers]".  My point is that that's an unnecessary qualification.  One of the biggest issues is ANYONE that decides they personally are more important than the collective.   If we're inclined to point fingers and agree that "carelessness" is the "biggest issue", I don't care if it's Christians, Jews, Republicans, deplorables, libtards, or buff bitches showing off their new boobies and bikini six-pack, if you're putting YOUR personal concern higher than the group at this point, you're "the biggest issue".

In my opinion, I think there is flexibility to how the controls are put into place, but to narrow down to groups takes the focus OFF the primary issue - that we all have a key role to play - and allows absolution for those that don't have anything better to blame. 

(Full disclosure; I'm dealing with an ex-family member that isn't part of any of these groups, and he's putting 10's if not 100's of people in danger having "COVID parties" in his basement; we had to get counsel involved at great cost to us to limit my stepson's visitation because he and my daughter are technically high risk people due to their asthma.  It's not about "God", or "45" or anything other than him being a dick.  I'm not giving this guy any chance to say "well, I'm not THAT guy.")

Sure, plenty of people are dumb and irresponsible. A large amount of those, especially in the south, are people who basically worship Trump and their actions are directly connected to Trump's downplaying of the whole thing until very recently. Pretty sure that's what black biff stadler is getting at.

I understand, I think, what he's getting at.  I just think it's not accurate, it's not based in any fact, and it's not helpful to getting us out of the situation we're finding ourselves in right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 03, 2020, 10:32:23 AM

Why would it be helpful getting us out of the situation right now? That's an odd metric to use to see whether or not people should say something.

Insulting spring break idiots doesn't help us either, but we all seem happy to do it.

We're pointing out how badly people are handling things and so forth. It's not supposed to make COVID go away, nothing we say here is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 03, 2020, 10:43:42 AM

JD, we are in a bit of a unique situation here where we do need to minimize our exposure to other people as best possible, but we also need to not abandon those who might need care and attention. I don't have a good answer, but I feel you have been given solid advice by others in this thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 03, 2020, 10:43:54 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 10:32:23 AM

Why would it be helpful getting us out of the situation right now? That's an odd metric to use to see whether or not people should say something.

Insulting spring break idiots doesn't help us either, but we all seem happy to do it.

We're pointing out how badly people are handling things and so forth. It's not supposed to make COVID go away, nothing we say here is.

These were my exact thoughts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 03, 2020, 10:53:16 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 10:32:23 AM

Why would it be helpful getting us out of the situation right now? That's an odd metric to use to see whether or not people should say something.

Insulting spring break idiots doesn't help us either, but we all seem happy to do it.

We're pointing out how badly people are handling things and so forth. It's not supposed to make COVID go away, nothing we say here is.

Perfectly said.  It's like how right after a school shooting there is a segment of the population who opines that "now is not the time to have a discussion about gun safety."  Well, when is an appropriate time to talk about all of this?  When the body count is at 3000?  5000?  10000? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 03, 2020, 10:57:13 AM

Maybe not in getting us out of the situation we're in now, but in terms of preventing this kind of thing in the future it seems pretty critical to recognize that the actions of the president of the fucking country have had a clear effect on our response to this crisis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 10:59:10 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 03, 2020, 10:43:42 AM

JD, we are in a bit of a unique situation here where we do need to minimize our exposure to other people as best possible, but we also need to not abandon those who might need care and attention. I don't have a good answer, but I feel you have been given solid advice by others in this thread.

Thank you. And thank Bosk, PP, and jingle as well. I’m going to take counsel with family and a few close friends...but I’m pretty sure we can make this work for a month (or until the stay at home is lifted...it’s May 4th now, but who knows if that may get extended)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 11:03:04 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 10:32:23 AM

Why would it be helpful getting us out of the situation right now? That's an odd metric to use to see whether or not people should say something.

Insulting spring break idiots doesn't help us either, but we all seem happy to do it.

We're pointing out how badly people are handling things and so forth. It's not supposed to make COVID go away, nothing we say here is.

And in that spirit, I'm doing exactly the same thing.  You're just referring to COVID-19 protection measures, and I'm just referring to the analysis of that. Shouldn't then be a problem. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 03, 2020, 11:17:00 AM

Quote from: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 10:59:10 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 03, 2020, 10:43:42 AM

JD, we are in a bit of a unique situation here where we do need to minimize our exposure to other people as best possible, but we also need to not abandon those who might need care and attention. I don't have a good answer, but I feel you have been given solid advice by others in this thread.

Thank you. And thank Bosk, PP, and jingle as well. I’m going to take counsel with family and a few close friends...but I’m pretty sure we can make this work for a month (or until the stay at home is lifted...it’s May 4th now, but who knows if that may get extended)

Is it possible for your friend to go two weeks without any visitors?  If so, and your family can do the same (get groceries delivered, etc) then I think you'll really be minimizing the risk of spreading it to each other when you move him in.  If anyone in your family has to work outside the home however... Maybe he's better off where he is, depending on what the people caring for him are doing and who they come in contact with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 11:30:41 AM

That’s just it. We in our house have already pretty much been quarantined for two weeks...and I have concerns about the people coming to check on him, and have pretty good reasons to suspect he’d be better off with us.

None of the people in my house are high risk, and none of us have any reason to believe that our lives would be threatened if we got this. Our biggest worries are not contacting others just in case we are asymptomatic carriers, and the inconvenience of being in the current medical system if we did get it. But none of us have any health problems, or immunity issues.  It would suck, but I don’t believe any of us are in any of the “possibly marked for death” categories. But my friend might be. That’s why I worry more about him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 03, 2020, 11:45:14 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 11:03:04 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 10:32:23 AM

Why would it be helpful getting us out of the situation right now? That's an odd metric to use to see whether or not people should say something.

Insulting spring break idiots doesn't help us either, but we all seem happy to do it.

We're pointing out how badly people are handling things and so forth. It's not supposed to make COVID go away, nothing we say here is.

And in that spirit, I'm doing exactly the same thing.  You're just referring to COVID-19 protection measures, and I'm just referring to the analysis of that. Shouldn't then be a problem.

Nothing you're saying is a problem. It's just two parallel conversations. That's it.

Your love of Kiss is a bit of a problem, but it's not at the point of concern.......yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 03, 2020, 11:47:23 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 11:45:14 AM

Your love of Kiss is a bit of a problem, but it's not at the point of concern.......yet.

Speak for yourself.  I have privately been concerned for some time now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 12:16:50 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 03, 2020, 10:53:16 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 10:32:23 AM

Why would it be helpful getting us out of the situation right now? That's an odd metric to use to see whether or not people should say something.

Insulting spring break idiots doesn't help us either, but we all seem happy to do it.

We're pointing out how badly people are handling things and so forth. It's not supposed to make COVID go away, nothing we say here is.

Perfectly said.  It's like how right after a school shooting there is a segment of the population who opines that "now is not the time to have a discussion about gun safety."  Well, when is an appropriate time to talk about all of this?  When the body count is at 3000?  5000?  10000?

Never once ever said not to talk about it; I'm with you, in that I WANT to talk about it NOW.   What I very clearly said more than once was blaming one particular sector that you (collective, not you, Harmony) have a political beef over is not productive, and therefore "not talking about it".    Remove all the spring breakers and Trump fans, and we STILL have a very big problem that isn't always being handled swiftly or correctly.   

The facts do not support the (politically driven) narrative; let's talk about it, but let's stick to facts that we can prove. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 12:18:06 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 03, 2020, 11:47:23 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 11:45:14 AM

Your love of Kiss is a bit of a problem, but it's not at the point of concern.......yet.

Speak for yourself.  I have privately been concerned for some time now.

So you two HAVE been talking to my wife.  It makes perfect sense now. 

This working from home is AWESOME, though, in that I don't have to take my makeup off to go to work anymore.  There's something very satisfying in negotiating a contract in Kiss makeup. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 03, 2020, 12:48:26 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 12:16:50 PM

The facts do not support the (politically driven) narrative; let's talk about it, but let's stick to facts that we can prove.

But that's the problem, isn't it?  "Facts that we can prove."  Prove how?  Are you saying that there has been no misinformation coming from the current administration or any government (I'm looking at you Florida and Georgia) official?  Are you saying that there aren't organizations passing out misinformation or downplaying the severity of the issue?

Look, I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around.  And there will always be idiots among like the person in your family you were talking about who in my not-so-humble opinion belongs in fucking jail.  But a good healthy chunk of blame definitely belongs at the foot of Trump.  And to pretend otherwise or say we can't talk about that because "facts" is honestly pretty much like telling people they shouldn't talk about it at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on April 03, 2020, 12:51:29 PM

Ugh. Been talking and emailing with a large family about an older guy expected to pass in the next month or two (not from COVID). Have been thorough about explaining restrictions, trying to explore various options with them, and now they've emailed to hit me with: "Well, we talked to his church and they said they have plenty of space and could accommodate the number of people we're hoping to have." Like, that's not the fucking point people. No one is enjoying this right now but stop trying to game the system and start seriously considering my healthy alternatives.

This is going to 99% end with them using a different funeral home which will do whatever they want, health be damned, which will of course result in someone coming back to the funeral home a lot sooner than expected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 01:01:40 PM

Ya.  The religion thing just baffles me.   Our religion (JW) has been directed by our branch office to teleconference all meetings, stop door to door witnessing, and no gatherings over 10 people.  Period.   Attendance at my congregation is actually up. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 03, 2020, 01:02:54 PM

Quote from: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 01:01:40 PM

Ya.  The religion thing just baffles me.   Our religion (JW) has been directed by our branch office to teleconference all meetings, stop door to door witnessing, and no gatherings over 10 people.  Period.   Attendance at my congregation is actually up.

Have you guys considered using remote control segues with Ipad skype on them to replace the door to door witnessing?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 03, 2020, 01:08:44 PM

Quote from: Nick on April 03, 2020, 12:51:29 PM

Ugh. Been talking and emailing with a large family about an older guy expected to pass in the next month or two (not from COVID). Have been thorough about explaining restrictions, trying to explore various options with them, and now they've emailed to hit me with: "Well, we talked to his church and they said they have plenty of space and could accommodate the number of people we're hoping to have." Like, that's not the fucking point people. No one is enjoying this right now but stop trying to game the system and start seriously considering my healthy alternatives.

This is going to 99% end with them using a different funeral home which will do whatever they want, health be damned, which will of course result in someone coming back to the funeral home a lot sooner than expected.

This just sucks for people who are dying and their families.  My mom's cousin passed away this week (not covid related) and there's no real funeral plus my parents being in FL couldn't and shouldn't travel to get there in NJ if there was a funeral either.

I have a friend who's wife's parents own the local funeral home and she is a funeral director there.  He's been telling her and her parents to buy the empty lot near by to hold drive through funerals.  He said that's actually a thing already in the south so while it seems odd, it not only is somewhat accepted in the US already but it also would be a way to potentially allow people to still have their peace with the dead.  I don't know how I feel about it personally, but if people would opt for that, seems like better than nothing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 01:15:51 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 01:02:54 PM

Quote from: jammindude on April 03, 2020, 01:01:40 PM

Ya.  The religion thing just baffles me.   Our religion (JW) has been directed by our branch office to teleconference all meetings, stop door to door witnessing, and no gatherings over 10 people.  Period.   Attendance at my congregation is actually up.

Have you guys considered using remote control segues with Ipad skype on them to replace the door to door witnessing?

I've not heard of that...but we are continuing with letter writing (with generous hand washing) and trying to encourage friends and relatives we know via FaceTime or Skype. 

This is also the first time in our history (EDIT - now that I think about it, I think we were briefly banned during WWI and it was done in private homes then as well...but my point was that current circumstances are unprecedented) that The Memorial of Christ's Death (our most important night of the entire year) will not be held in any public facility.   We are all watching a prerecorded talk at home, and preparing our own emblems in our own homes.   Those who can make the bread will make some extra for those who can't...etc..etc..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 03, 2020, 01:20:38 PM

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/cb4f211dcb14e492109471d1fb6a4088/ffa4d4cde20339e1-bc/s1280x1920/7b2c54dae4ec9e6cb46dc8fedbc5e5b768f14639.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 03, 2020, 01:23:00 PM

Also, I saw this a couple weeks back with the caption "Strong enough to exorcise demons, but not a virus"  :lol

(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/pressofatlanticcity.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/32/632ca2f7-cc3c-570b-b0e1-e9cc91e2816e/5e6a68b2bdc88.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C800)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 03, 2020, 01:50:07 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 03, 2020, 01:27:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 12:35:26 PM

My company has an office in NYC, and one of my colleagues that works there lives in the city adjacent to a hospital, and when the shift changes she claims you can hear applause from people on the street and in neighboring apartments saluting them as they go home.  (She took video and I can confirm the applause and bells; I'm not sure if it's a hospital or one of the first responder stations, though).

My sister lives in the upper east side along 2nd ave and they do this at 7pm every night from their balconies.  It started with just cheers and now my sister has a set up with her broom she bangs  :lol  Pretty cool thing to do to show appreciation, even if not much, it's still pretty amazing to see in NYC. 

Moving here from p/r so more people can see it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 01:50:47 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 03, 2020, 12:48:26 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 12:16:50 PM

The facts do not support the (politically driven) narrative; let's talk about it, but let's stick to facts that we can prove.

But that's the problem, isn't it?  "Facts that we can prove."  Prove how?  Are you saying that there has been no misinformation coming from the current administration or any government (I'm looking at you Florida and Georgia) official?  Are you saying that there aren't organizations passing out misinformation or downplaying the severity of the issue?

Look, I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around.  And there will always be idiots among like the person in your family you were talking about who in my not-so-humble opinion belongs in fucking jail.  But a good healthy chunk of blame definitely belongs at the foot of Trump.  And to pretend otherwise or say we can't talk about that because "facts" is honestly pretty much like telling people they shouldn't talk about it at all.

Not at all saying that.  Trump clearly bears responsibility here and no question about that.   But that misinformation doesn't SOLELY explain where we are, and for others to make that the "biggest issue" is one that doesn't account for a good percentage of our problems (maybe even a majority of our problems) doesn't make sense to me.  It just doesn't have good correlation on this issue.  Even Drs. Fauci and Birx were reluctant to agree that we can make some of the claims that are being made regarding the "timeliness" of the response (it's in the March 31 Task Force briefing, if you're interested.)

I'm not arguing "whataboutism" here, nor blaming Democrats; I'm VERY CLEARLY saying it's a bipartisan concern here, but just to document my claim that the facts don't support the narrative:

The immediate U.S. hotspots?  By this map (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/map-reveals-hidden-u-s-hotspots-of-coronavirus-infection/):

Seattle, WA (BLUE state, by a lot)
New York, NY (BLUE state)
San Francisco, CA (BLUE state, by a lot)
Colorado (BLUE state)
Chicago, IL; Detroit, MI; and New Orleans, LA (BLUEST sector of a red state, but ALL with Democratic governors)

Then look at the second map in the link I gave, with the "hidden hot spots":
Mississippi, Nashville, and southern Georgia fit the narrative, but what about:

Vermont?  BLUE State (and home to Mr. Sanders, though Republican governor)
Atlanta?  BLUE sector of a red state.
Virginia/Maryland?  BLUE state.
Montana? Red state but BLUE governor

We here in Connecticut are being warned that we're the next big one.  BLUE state.

Seems to me that this virus doesn't check your voter enrollment card before digging in (just trying to be funny; there's no statement there).   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 03, 2020, 01:51:41 PM

Brooke Baldwin has tested positive.

My condolences, Stadler.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 03, 2020, 01:53:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 12:18:06 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 03, 2020, 11:47:23 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 03, 2020, 11:45:14 AM

Your love of Kiss is a bit of a problem, but it's not at the point of concern.......yet.

Speak for yourself.  I have privately been concerned for some time now.

So you two HAVE been talking to my wife.  It makes perfect sense now. 

This working from home is AWESOME, though, in that I don't have to take my makeup off to go to work anymore.  There's something very satisfying in negotiating a contract in Kiss makeup.

:clap:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 03, 2020, 01:58:10 PM

Let's keep the P/R talk in the P/R forum, please.  Most people who come to this side don't come here for that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 02:00:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 03, 2020, 01:51:41 PM

Brooke Baldwin has tested positive.

My condolences, Stadler.

I'm not a monster. I hope her and her family are safe and survive this. It's not to be trifled with, from what I understand.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 03, 2020, 02:03:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 02:00:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 03, 2020, 01:51:41 PM

Brooke Baldwin has tested positive.

My condolences, Stadler.

I'm not a monster. I hope her and her family are safe and survive this. It's not to be trifled with, from what I understand.

Oh, for sure.

I was trying to add a little levity here amongst all of the gloom and doom.  It is not easy, but I am trying to remain on an even keel over here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 03, 2020, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 03, 2020, 01:50:47 PM

Not at all saying that.  Trump clearly bears responsibility here and no question about that.   But that misinformation doesn't SOLELY explain where we are, and for others to make that the "biggest issue" is one that doesn't account for a good percentage of our problems (maybe even a majority of our problems) doesn't make sense to me.  It just doesn't have good correlation on this issue.  Even Drs. Fauci and Birx were reluctant to agree that we can make some of the claims that are being made regarding the "timeliness" of the response (it's in the March 31 Task Force briefing, if you're interested.)

I'm not arguing "whataboutism" here, nor blaming Democrats; I'm VERY CLEARLY saying it's a bipartisan concern here, but just to document my claim that the facts don't support the narrative:

The immediate U.S. hotspots?  By this map (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/map-reveals-hidden-u-s-hotspots-of-coronavirus-infection/):

Seattle, WA (BLUE state, by a lot)
New York, NY (BLUE state)
San Francisco, CA (BLUE state, by a lot)
Colorado (BLUE state)
Chicago, IL; Detroit, MI; and New Orleans, LA (BLUEST sector of a red state, but ALL with Democratic governors)

Then look at the second map in the link I gave, with the "hidden hot spots":
Mississippi, Nashville, and southern Georgia fit the narrative, but what about:

Vermont?  BLUE State (and home to Mr. Sanders, though Republican governor)
Atlanta?  BLUE sector of a red state.
Virginia/Maryland?  BLUE state.
Montana? Red state but BLUE governor

We here in Connecticut are being warned that we're the next big one.  BLUE state.

Seems to me that this virus doesn't check your voter enrollment card before digging in (just trying to be funny; there's no statement there).

I'm going to caveat this whole post with the understanding that this gets moved to P&R.  But as less people participate there, I hope that it doesn't.

So I'm not sure I'm following some of your line of thinking here and I want to be very sure that I am.  Are you suggesting that the virus and/or the response to it are worse in blue states because of the leadership there?  Or conversely, that red states are not going to be hit as hard and/or their responses will be better because of their leadership?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 03, 2020, 02:40:24 PM

Urban areas, which are likely to be hit first and the hardest (by virtue of the number of people in a small geographic area) are predominately BLUE. That is all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 03, 2020, 03:19:15 PM

Quote from: Podaar on April 03, 2020, 02:40:24 PM

Urban areas, which are likely to be hit first and the hardest (by virtue of the number of people in a small geographic area) are predominately BLUE. That is all.

That is true.  My opinion is that the closer densely populated an area the bluer it gets generally.  I don't know why that is though.  But it is neither here nor there when it comes to the virus.  I don't want anyone hurt by it no matter what their political persuasion.  But jokes are often a really good way to deal with a crisis like this.  I think attempts at levity are good  :tup

But, it has certainly caused me to pause about the area I live.  I'm thinking the boonies will be my next move.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 03, 2020, 03:41:56 PM

I was thinking that maybe in the near term future this whole ordeal will bring positive changes to how we lived as a society, forcing us to make some long term and surely positive changes (the very least, personal hygiene becoming finally a thing), since this is so dramatic, life changing and historical (definitively gonna do down in history, it's the most famous and historical thing to happen since 9/11 hands down).

After all in history we all ignored warning signs and woke up only from a big tragedy. Let's pick the Titanic for example. How many small, minor incidents here and there would have needed to make someone realize that safety measures on ships needed to be better? but then the Titanic sank, with an outrageous loss of life, and people finally got it that you can't have fewer lifeboats than the number of people of board (well, their total capacity I mean). I read sometime that many of the modern safety measures at sea derived from the Titanic incident.

Also airplanes hijacking were a thing, they were plenty. It took 9/11 to take the security measures to a next level. Why you can't take so many items on board and why you can't open a cabin door even if you want to? not because someday a random lunatic tried to barge into the pilots cabin with a knife. It's because two planes were hijacked by terrorists and flown into skyscrapers.

What I mean is that this so huge that there's no "phew, that was crazy, right? staying a month at home... uh well, back to the office I guess" about it. We'll feel the economical and social repercussions for months if not years, and there's no going back to the way it was exactly before. And for some aspects of everyday's life it might even be a good thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on April 03, 2020, 04:19:01 PM

Hopefully, this whole experience can bring something positive in the end.  On that note, the head pastor at the church I go to stated this on the weekly church bulletin and I like what he wrote.

Quote

In times of crisis, fear, anxiety and uncertainty, some of our best qualities and talents get set aside or go dormant. In the spirit of coming out of the tomb, now is the time to find those best qualities and let them emerge once again in our lives. What good qualities or talents might have gone dormant in us that it is time to let live again? For some It is time to recharge your old enthusiasm, your wonderful sense of humor, or the brightness that your smile brings to others.

For others it is cooking a fabulous dish, writing the comforting email, having just the right words to help people feel connected, humming a few bars, playing a few tunes on your guitar, piano or harmonica. Draw a picture, make a card, crochet a scarf , repair a leaky faucet, handcraft a gift, build a birdhouse. Whatever it may be, we all have something within us that it may be time to let the Lord's eternal life set free and live again.

Belief in the promise of eternal life changes everything. It is the difference between seeing the coronavirus as an unredeemable tragedy or a motivation to renew the promise of eternal life that is as close to us as our own hearts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 03, 2020, 04:33:28 PM

Looks like it's now recommended for everyone to wear a mask or use a cloth to cover your face.  Crazy times we live in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on April 03, 2020, 04:54:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 03, 2020, 04:33:28 PM

Looks like it's now recommended for everyone to wear a mask or use a cloth to cover your face.  Crazy times we live in.

Looks like we will have more shortages of masks then if it hasn't happened already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 03, 2020, 05:10:33 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on April 03, 2020, 04:54:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 03, 2020, 04:33:28 PM

Looks like it's now recommended for everyone to wear a mask or use a cloth to cover your face.  Crazy times we live in.

Looks like we will have more shortages of masks then if it hasn't happened already.

They are advising not to buy one but make one with cloth at home.  I have some crappy facemask I bought and use occassionally when spraying cleaning products in the bathroom as it would irritate me if I breathed them in.  I guess I can use that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 03, 2020, 05:12:19 PM

I went to buy some basic masks on Amazon. Man, I really should've seen this coming and ordered them a month ago. Ah well.

Soonest I could get delivery is 7-17 days from now. Most were 2 months away. Insanity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 03, 2020, 05:51:02 PM

I have one N95 from work, and my wife was able to pick up some cloth ones from the corner market. I am the only one who goes anywhere (groceries, take out) so I guess the masks are out of.... an abundance of caution.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 07:14:28 PM

I’ve had a case of N95’s in my garage for quite some time. Handed out a few to family and friends today. Good thing is that you can sterilize them in the oven on 160 degrees for half hour or just let them sit for (4) days before using again. I have enough left to rotate being I’m the one who is going out on grocery runs and what not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 03, 2020, 07:23:53 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 07:14:28 PM

I’ve had a case of N95’s in my garage for quite some time. Handed out a few to family and friends today. Good thing is that you can sterilize them in the oven on 160 degrees for half hour or just let them sit for (4) days before using again. I have enough left to rotate being I’m the one who is going out on grocery runs and what not.

I don't remember what you do Gary. Do you sell them? Why would you have a case of them in your garage?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 11:39:00 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2020, 07:23:53 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 07:14:28 PM

I’ve had a case of N95’s in my garage for quite some time. Handed out a few to family and friends today. Good thing is that you can sterilize them in the oven on 160 degrees for half hour or just let them sit for (4) days before using again. I have enough left to rotate being I’m the one who is going out on grocery runs and what not.

I don't remember what you do Gary. Do you sell them? Why would you have a case of them in your garage?

I work for a Healthcare System. When consumables are sent to our warehouse after they’ve passed their allowable use dates  they’re either trashed or shipped to third world countries. The US only allows these things to sit unused for so long before they have to be retired. Whenever there things that are still ‘good’ but are being trashed simply due to them not being used in time I’ll poke around in them and grab this and that.

8-10 months ago N95 masks were just something that if they weren’t used in a certain time frame would be sent to our warehouse for redistribution to 3rd world countries or even trashed.  I’ve always kept a small inventory of those and medical grade gloves on hand just because. The gloves for staining/painting or whatever and the masks for any other handyman projects that would require them. Plus, I’m an amateur ‘prepper’ and recovering conspiracy theorist so I won’t say I ‘called’ this pandemic but the odds were/are a viral pandemic was gonna happen eventually. Nothing wrong with having a few dozen healthcare grade masks and a supply of gloves on hand for family and friends.

I mean....I’ve had a healthy supply of MRE’s, non perishables, water and ammo for quite some time as well.  :lol   Our food back up is based off of living on the New Madrid fault though. That puppy snaps and we’re gonna need the couple months of non perishable food. My wife used to think I was crazy when we first were married but it’s better to be prepared and never need it than not to be and do. I’m not full blown prepper but I do have my family covered in case of emergency.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 03, 2020, 11:54:12 PM

I went out to my garage attic yesterday to bring whatever amount I had available down to use for our weekly, ever increasingly anxiety laden grocery and pharmacy trip.  Plus, it's time to go into the house attic for my annual interior roof inspection, plus I was going to spackle and sand and paint a wall in our basement.  Sadly, the elastic snaps had rotted due to the constant temperature changes, along with mice nibbling holes in most of the masks. 

(I don't have ammo, we're set for one month, but the dog would be good for about four months ;))

That's what I get for not abiding by a New Year's resolution.  I was going to visit Home Depot the first week in January, and make sure I had enough usable dust masks, so that in April I could go grocery shopping for the safety of myself and others in a futile search for toilet paper.  Yup, I'm sure we all made that resolution and didn't follow through with it......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 04, 2020, 05:00:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 07:14:28 PM

I’ve had a case of N95’s in my garage for quite some time. Handed out a few to family and friends today. Good thing is that you can sterilize them in the oven on 160 degrees for half hour or just let them sit for (4) days before using again. I have enough left to rotate being I’m the one who is going out on grocery runs and what not.

The CDC does not support the use of hot air (e.g., an oven) to dry and decontaminate N95 masks. It suggests that the dry air heating process may reduce the viral filtering capability of N95 masks (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/decontamination-reuse-respirators.html).

Though, letting them sit for 3-4 days theoretically should be fine, as all indications are that the virus doesn't really survive that long on most surfaces.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 04, 2020, 07:49:35 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 04, 2020, 05:00:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 07:14:28 PM

I’ve had a case of N95’s in my garage for quite some time. Handed out a few to family and friends today. Good thing is that you can sterilize them in the oven on 160 degrees for half hour or just let them sit for (4) days before using again. I have enough left to rotate being I’m the one who is going out on grocery runs and what not.

The CDC does not support the use of hot air (e.g., an oven) to dry and decontaminate N95 masks. It suggests that the dry air heating process may reduce the viral filtering capability of N95 masks (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/decontamination-reuse-respirators.html).

Though, letting them sit for 3-4 days theoretically should be fine, as all indications are that the virus doesn't really survive that long on most surfaces.

Good to know. I had read online that you could bake them but if open air is just as good then that’s fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 04, 2020, 07:26:41 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 11:39:00 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2020, 07:23:53 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2020, 07:14:28 PM

I’ve had a case of N95’s in my garage for quite some time. Handed out a few to family and friends today. Good thing is that you can sterilize them in the oven on 160 degrees for half hour or just let them sit for (4) days before using again. I have enough left to rotate being I’m the one who is going out on grocery runs and what not.

I don't remember what you do Gary. Do you sell them? Why would you have a case of them in your garage?

I work for a Healthcare System. When consumables are sent to our warehouse after they’ve passed their allowable use dates  they’re either trashed or shipped to third world countries. The US only allows these things to sit unused for so long before they have to be retired. Whenever there things that are still ‘good’ but are being trashed simply due to them not being used in time I’ll poke around in them and grab this and that.

8-10 months ago N95 masks were just something that if they weren’t used in a certain time frame would be sent to our warehouse for redistribution to 3rd world countries or even trashed.  I’ve always kept a small inventory of those and medical grade gloves on hand just because. The gloves for staining/painting or whatever and the masks for any other handyman projects that would require them. Plus, I’m an amateur ‘prepper’ and recovering conspiracy theorist so I won’t say I ‘called’ this pandemic but the odds were/are a viral pandemic was gonna happen eventually. Nothing wrong with having a few dozen healthcare grade masks and a supply of gloves on hand for family and friends.

I mean....I’ve had a healthy supply of MRE’s, non perishables, water and ammo for quite some time as well.  :lol   Our food back up is based off of living on the New Madrid fault though. That puppy snaps and we’re gonna need the couple months of non perishable food. My wife used to think I was crazy when we first were married but it’s better to be prepared and never need it than not to be and do. I’m not full blown prepper but I do have my family covered in case of emergency.

I thought the masks would be related to your job.

You're at least a half blown prepper  ;D and maybe you can tell me what a full blown prepper has that you don't. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 05, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

I'm interested to read predictions from everyone on when
we get back to normal and what the metrics will be that enable
us to flip the switch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 05, 2020, 08:08:40 AM

I don't have any predictions. But It's guaranteed that our normal is gone. We are going into a new normal. How it turns out depends on how much we are willing to sacrifice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 05, 2020, 08:25:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 05, 2020, 08:08:40 AM

I don't have any predictions. But It's guaranteed that our normal is gone. We are going into a new normal. How it turns out depends on how much we are willing to sacrifice.

I agree with this. Only when we'll have a vaccine we can consider going back to what once was considered "normal". Until then, according from nation to nation because the ways, the costumes and the habits are different and so the social realities, we'll have a gradual and cautious re-adapting to social life.

I don't think there'll be a "Victory Day" like in World War II. There won't be the "first day after the contagion has ended" to mark down on calendars. Some business will re-opens before others. Some restrictions will be lifted before others. Bars and restaurants will have fewer customers and distances will be kept. Same for cinemas. In Italy I've seen online articles discussing ways to handle the public transports, for example having a closed number accessing the subway and not being allowed on the tracks until the previous train has taken away all the allotted people.

Also, there's the small matter of how to avoiding this to happen again in the future. Both in being able to contain the next outbreak more efficiently, and how to avoid future ones. The answer is relatively simple, on paper.... you only need to go googling about it to find out that it was YEARS that the causes of pandemics have been identified as fast urbanization (that screws up ecosystems and allows wild animals to come into contact with domestic ones) coupled with overpopulation and lack of acceptble hygienic standards. So, problem solved, right? we help Africa stop being poor, we stop destroying every jungle we can find and we stop breeding so much! ............yeah, easier said than done.

Same as with global warming, basically. How do we solve global warming? well, we stop all those pesky emissions into the air! how to actually and realistically do it? well............

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 05, 2020, 08:44:07 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 05, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

I'm interested to read predictions from everyone on when
we get back to normal and what the metrics will be that enable
us to flip the switch.

For us the crisis started earlier and even with social distancing (which now seems to be helping),  our experts expect the peak to be at the end of may. The trajectory of illness can be long one. The average time a patients spends on the ICU here is around 23 days. But count incubation time, initial illness, getting better etc. on top of that and from the point of infection to being better, we are speaking in months. This is offcourse for the worst cases, but as long as people are ill, they can infect others. And there are so many of these bad cases that the hospitals keep flooding. But when the hospitals are at normal levels, it is not like we can return to normal, because then you will flood them again.

We can hope that, like with many viruses, the spread will be slower in peak spring and summer, but we simply do not know that at this point. And even if that is the case, there is a realistic chance it will return when we hit autumn/winter, like other widespread viruses do.

There are scientist here and other EU countries predicting we will need significant safety measures for at least more than a year, but what those measures will entail remains to be seen.

Personally, I don't think there will be a "flip the switch" moment, rather a gradual return to (some) activities with some major changes in regards to safety. When that will happen? Who knows, I think it will differ per nation. If the summer has the same impact on this virus as it does on Influenza, we will potentially have a window where people can live under less strict rules (but still under strict rules). And hopefully a vaccine or better preparation will make us more effective against its return. However, keep in mind the common cold is still there in the summer (which is partially due to coronaviruses), so it is entirely possble the spread will keep on going.

In the end, too many factors are unknown. But this will be a major problem for a long time to come if you ask me. And as others are saying, there will be a new normal.




I must stress though, while I work in a field somewhat related to this, I am by no means an expert (I am generally busy setting up/optimizing assays for viral research/diagnostics, but that is focused on the tech, not what viruses do/how they behave. That is not part of my knowledge).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 05, 2020, 09:03:47 AM

I think there will be some minor changes to social habits and people will be more aware of sanitizing and hand washing at least for a while. But I think in the long run not much will change. This will move on and we'll get complacent again. The emergency plans for having masks and other protective equipment stocked up in mass quantities will change. At the government level hopefully they will be more prepared. Hopefully China and other countries learn their lesson about not keeping stuff like this hidden when it first starts.

Honestly, I give the current state of things a couple more months until people start to say "screw this... It's not worth it. I'd rather risk getting sick than stay shut in all the time not being about to see family and friends." And businesses will eventually start pushing back on the government about having to be closed and risking bankruptcy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 05, 2020, 09:13:32 AM

I feel, it's more the Testing Kits than a Vaccine that would help us get our heads out of the sand again.

In all, prevention comes down to, When was the pandemic of a virus first known by Health Entities and Governments? Once they knew it was spreading and there's no current cure, that's when they should've implemented all these lockdowns and constant sanitary habits.

These Health Entities and Governments didn't do it and now here we are. They are our leaders, and if they have any balls they'll admit they're the ones at fault for the spread of this virus.

The only thing I hope is for us to learn from this. How to be more respectful, trustworthy, honest, compassionate, and overall caring for others, ourselves, and the world. We only have one life, and one Earth. Let's not screw it up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 05, 2020, 10:39:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 05, 2020, 09:03:47 AM

Honestly, I give the current state of things a couple more months until people start to say "screw this... It's not worth it. I'd rather risk getting sick than stay shut in all the time not being about to see family and friends." And businesses will eventually start pushing back on the government about having to be closed and risking bankruptcy.

I hear a lot of people are already at the "screw it" point.  I expect this to go to the end of April but in May people really start saying "screw it". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 05, 2020, 10:54:11 AM

Predictions? Poverty leading to a bit of unrest on a local scale. On a larger one - at least here in EU - a massive growth of nationalisms and bitter finger-pointing (at best) among states.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 05, 2020, 11:45:28 AM

One thing no one seems to mention:  if these 'droplets' reach the ground, where do they go?  Uhm....your shoes?  We've been removing ours, and sanitizing them after grocery shopping.

Second...many are focused so much on how this may turn around with the warmer weather.  Well, southern areas don't seem to be immune right now, and the fall/winter season in the southern hemispheres is here.  grrrrr

Oh, and then there's this       https://www.facebook.com/312383761871/photos/a.313018011871/10157423886176872/?type=3&theater

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 05, 2020, 11:49:36 AM

I mean, unless you're touching and/or licking your shoes after you come back inside, I don't see why it would be a major concern.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 05, 2020, 12:16:17 PM

Because you touch your shoes to take them off, and then touch your face, perhaps.  Or you can track what's in a store to your car and then through your house, perhaps.  And, no, I don't lick my floors either :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 05, 2020, 12:53:20 PM

I agree that the biggest factor of all will be a collective, F-this attitude. I
give it until mid May. By then, regardless of the scenario, people start
going out. About the time everybody needs a haircut badly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 05, 2020, 01:17:27 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on April 05, 2020, 11:45:28 AM

One thing no one seems to mention:  if these 'droplets' reach the ground, where do they go?  Uhm....your shoes?  We've been removing ours, and sanitizing them after grocery shopping.

Second...many are focused so much on how this may turn around with the warmer weather.  Well, southern areas don't seem to be immune right now, and the fall/winter season in the southern hemispheres is here.  grrrrr

Oh, and then there's this       https://www.facebook.com/312383761871/photos/a.313018011871/10157423886176872/?type=3&theater

From what I understood in regards to this discussion:

Offcourse warm weather does not magically kill of a virus. But the fact that people are suffering from corona in warm regions does not mean the virus can spread there as easily. Up until recently, the world was still up and running with many people travelling all around the globe. And it took a while for social distancing to set in everywhere. Warm weather or not, the virus can be transmitted from person to person. The fact that warmer areas do have outbreaks does not mean the weather will not impact it's overall spread. Early scientific studies have provided evidence that the tranmission of this virus is affected by the climate, that was about two weeks ago.

But at this point, I think our experts do not expect the weather to be significant enough to lower the spread enough.

And granted, this was a discussion I was following like more than a week ago, since then a lot has happened.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 05, 2020, 01:35:07 PM

The thing is, it isn't just about a date on a calendar.  It's about accurate numbers and where each state is individually along the curve.  You look at numbers of new infections, numbers of hospital and ICU admissions and discharges.  You need a plan in place to monitor people once restrictions are lifted and a plan for what to do in case of a new outbreak circle within a county/community.  You need accurate antibody testing firmly in place.

The orders to stay at home need to be fluid and people need to understand this.  Otherwise, this period of time is just a precursor of what's more to come.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on April 05, 2020, 01:58:12 PM

My wife started a week and a half ago making masks for my Sister and Brother in law, both are pediatricians.  Since then she's been making them for our other family members and my Dad's caretaker.  Now, she's having a tough time finding the elastic to make them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Volante99 on April 05, 2020, 02:56:29 PM

Quote from: emtee on April 05, 2020, 12:53:20 PM

I agree that the biggest factor of all will be a collective, F-this attitude. I
give it until mid May. By then, regardless of the scenario, people start
going out. About the time everybody needs a haircut badly.

Agreed. I’ve already seen increased traffic and people out and about this weekend. We’ve been under lockdown for 3 weeks and we’ve only seen a handful of cases and one death of an elderly person in an area of about 100,000 people. People are getting restless and they’ll want to start gathering. My office is already trying ways to legally circumvent the state shutdown mandate and get people back to work in the next week or so. Unless it hits the area harder soon (which I pray it doesn’t) people will lose that sense of seriousness/emergency. Unfortunately, for most people in the Midwest, NYC might as well be Timbuktu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 05, 2020, 06:12:48 PM

A doctor in a few of CT's hospitals released this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySOCNycv-aA&feature=emb_title

I got in touch with the floor manager in the ER of the hospital down the street from me and showed him these. He was already aware of this model and said to bring in as many as I can make. They'll all get used. Apparently both hospitals in my city have next to nothing. I posted a thing on Facebook offering these to friends in the industry, and I had to take the post down after 30 minutes. It got shared by over a dozen people I didn't know and it just exploded. That's why I just decided to go the route of bulk donating straight to the hospital.

I've made 11 so far and I ordered another printer so I can double production. I had to order two types of filter material, tourniquets for straps, rubber seals, silicone, and a few other odds and ends as well. I got on the horn with someone from Amazon and explained what I was doing. They were able to go in and modify the order and overnighted everything but the printer to me for no extra charge (the printer is still arriving 4 days earlier though). The filters are replaceable, so my plan is to dedicate one printer to just printing masks and the other to printing replacement filters. They go together pretty easily, and once all the materials are in, you can make a mask for under $3 per. They're all sanded, primed, and then coated in plastidip (rubber in a can) to completely seal them.

(https://i.imgur.com/Jehb3Ew.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/N9Pu1iI.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 05, 2020, 06:16:20 PM

You're a fucking rockstar!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 05, 2020, 06:17:21 PM

That’s awesome Chino!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 05, 2020, 06:18:00 PM

Wow! That's really cool.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 05, 2020, 06:18:59 PM

Fucking amazing, Chino.  Heroes are to be found everywhere.   :heart

Do you have a funding source for people to help in that way?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 05, 2020, 06:36:06 PM

Thanks everyone. The manager said they're even taking certain types of homemade cloth masks. Anything is better than nothing at this point. Many of the nurses that know how to sew are going home after a 12 hour shift and sewing for 6 hours before going back to work. If you're in quarantine and have the means, maybe give your hospital a ring and see what they need. Hell, hospitals in my state are getting sanitizer donated to them. A distillery in the town over from me stopped producing booze and switched to industrial strength sanitizer. You can bring your own empty bottle there and fill it for free, and they're sending cases to any kind of first responders they can. 

Quote from: Harmony on April 05, 2020, 06:18:59 PM

Fucking amazing, Chino.  Heroes are to be found everywhere.   :heart

Do you have a funding source for people to help in that way?

I actually have a couple people in the family that helped out. My sister shipped three rolls of filament my way and my dad went half on the printer. I bought my mom $60 worth of groceries and she gave me a hundred when I brought them to her. She told me to put it toward this. Stuff like that.

If it ever came to a point where I needed supplies and couldn't order them, I'd maybe throw a link on here. If someone wanted to contribute, that'd be cool. Anything needed would be $20 or less. I'll cross that bridge if I ever get to it  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Jamesman42 on April 05, 2020, 06:41:13 PM

You are the man, Chino.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 05, 2020, 07:28:16 PM

Brian....that is awesome!!!!!!

If you have Venmo PM me your info. I'd love to help out covering some of your cost.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 05, 2020, 08:32:12 PM

Awesome Chino!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 05, 2020, 08:57:20 PM

wow thats sick  :metal :metal :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 05, 2020, 09:06:30 PM

Nice work, Chino!  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 05, 2020, 09:16:48 PM

Mad props to you brother!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 05, 2020, 11:16:18 PM

That's awesome Chino!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 06, 2020, 12:20:28 AM

 :tup :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 06, 2020, 01:06:11 AM

Chino rules  :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 06, 2020, 05:57:44 AM

Thank you Chino! I'm guessing it doesn't feel like it to you, but your level of selflessness, generosity, and civic spirit is extraordinary.

Do you recommend the same 3D Printer that was mentioned in the video?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 06, 2020, 06:00:09 AM

I find myself wishing that they would publish numbers of estimated cases of Covid-19 instead of the actual confirmed cases. Because the confirmed cases seems woefully small compared to what is actually going on. I think people would take things much more seriously if they said there are an estimated 20 million people with Covid-19 (or whatever the number is) instead of the 1.2 million confirmed cases worldwide. I know they can't do this though since they don't really have a good idea of how many cases are going uncounted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 06, 2020, 06:03:19 AM

Like a fucking boss, Chino.   :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 06, 2020, 06:16:56 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 06, 2020, 05:57:44 AM

Thank you Chino! I'm guessing it doesn't feel like it to you, but your level of selflessness, generosity, and civic spirit it extraordinary.

Do you recommend the same 3D Printer that was mentioned in the video?

That's actually the one I purchased. That was going to be my next model regardless. I've had my eye on it for a while. I don't have any experience with it, but from what I read, that machine is a hell of a bang for your buck and a workhorse. It takes a little more time in regards to assembly to get it going, but that's one of the ways they get it to you for so cheap. This one seems to take around 3-4 hours to put together and test, where as my current machine took about 15 minutes.

There's a lot of people in the printing community making all kinds of stuff right now. People are donating these by the hundreds: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4249113?fbclid=IwAR3LT8TIIMnN5UCjYD1Swj9VVzrpf0OU3ZiEN4rwDk2k7-g1jONYIfVv0vg

(https://i.redd.it/0rbz05z6w6r41.jpg)
(https://cdn.thingiverse.com/assets/6d/c5/c3/06/fa/IMG_20200405_161209_01.jpg)
(printer we were discussing above)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 06, 2020, 06:21:00 AM

Excellent, I'll see if local medical facilities are in need and would accept them. If so, I'll talk with Mrs. P to see if we can get involved in this. Thanks again, Chino.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 06, 2020, 06:22:01 AM

So I've been going back and forth with this, but after a few people expressing interest and reaching out, I've created an Amazon wish list for this effort. I've never done one of these before. I guess if buy it from my list it will ship to my house instead of yours? If someone knows how these work and wants to chime in, that'd be great. I believe it's set up so if one of you wanted to send one of these things my way, it'd be removed from the list so they don't get double ordered.

I'd be purchasing everything on this list at some point within the next week:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/3M9CCZRR0VR7A?ref_=wl_share

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 06, 2020, 06:29:04 AM

I just ordered one of each for you. I had to select the address you put in as the gift address, otherwise it defaulted to mine for shipping. Your list is now empty (at the link you provided). You should receive everything between the 10th and the 12th

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 06, 2020, 06:37:47 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 06, 2020, 06:22:01 AM

So I've been going back and forth with this, but after a few people expressing interest and reaching out, I've created an Amazon wish list for this effort. I've never done one of these before. I guess if buy it from my list it will ship to my house instead of yours? If someone knows how these work and wants to chime in, that'd be great. I believe it's set up so if one of you wanted to send one of these things my way, it'd be removed from the list so they don't get double ordered.

I'd be purchasing everything on this list at some point within the next week:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/3M9CCZRR0VR7A?ref_=wl_share

Thank you for doing this, but I don't see anything on your list, it's empty  ??? :justjen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 06, 2020, 07:14:48 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 06, 2020, 06:29:04 AM

I just ordered one of each for you. I had to select the address you put in as the gift address, otherwise it defaulted to mine for shipping. Your list is now empty (at the link you provided). You should receive everything between the 10th and the 12th

 :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

Thank you so much!

All other interest has been greatly appreciated. Much respect.  :heart

Just a reminder - All hospitals, Dr.s offices, Urgent Cares, foster homes, soup kitchens, senior living facilities, first responders, and grocery stores need stuff right now. Call around and see what people could use .

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 06, 2020, 07:20:45 AM

Chino, you are are hero.

No capes!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 06, 2020, 11:39:18 AM

Chino... check you FB IM plz.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 06, 2020, 01:54:32 PM

Looks like Borris Johnson has been moved to ICU.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 06, 2020, 02:51:43 PM

Fuck

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 06, 2020, 03:02:30 PM

Been seeing a bunch of masks around town and foot traffic once again has decreased. 65 cases in my county now. 5000+ a couple hours north up in Chicago. Woof

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 06, 2020, 03:13:15 PM

Very cool to see people working hard on helping the hospitals with medical supplies! Great job, Chino and co!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 06, 2020, 04:01:07 PM

Well done, Chino !!!!

How many shopping carts are you going to fill? ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 06, 2020, 04:10:45 PM

WA state just cancelled school for the year. I am not concerned much about my 3rd grader, she is doing well with remote learning. But the missus teaches elementary special needs kids, and they do not do well with remote learning. She is taking this very hard.

We are Stay-at-Home/non-essential businesses closed till May 04, really hopeful that doesn't get extended. Got my first unemployment check, which is nice, and my boss seems not too concerned about weathering this storm.

Also not sure if discussed here, but that was a nice speech given by QE2. We will indeed meet again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 06, 2020, 06:16:20 PM

Wisconsin's primary is tomorrow and our Governor used an executive order to try and postpone it to allow more people to receive absentee ballots, but the states supreme court overruled it.  The state has already decreased the available polling places due to the virus, but now that means more people will be congregated in less areas.

Not to mention how shady it is concerning the political effect of it all.  I'm pissed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 06, 2020, 09:37:29 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 02, 2020, 12:18:16 PM

Our guitarist David is out of the ICU and breathing much better now.  His wife is still in.

Fuck.  David suffered a stroke while there in the hospital.  The best they can tell, it was because of a blood clot in his leg, which they treated by hitting him with blood thinners.  The blood thinners worked, sort of, breaking up the clot but sending some of it into his brain and some of it into his lungs.  He went into respiratory distress around the same time as the stroke.  His wife Nancy is still in the ICU, heavily sedated, and thus has no idea that any of this is going on.  They have two daughters, aged 23 and 19.  The doctors called the girls to come to the hospital to say goodbye to their father.  He was not expected to last the night.

This was last Friday, and he's still alive.  After eight hours of sitting there, waiting, the doctors finally told the girls to go home and they'd call them if there was any change to his condition.  Saturday afternoon, after not hearing anything, they called the hospital.  There had not been any change; he's still hanging in there.  Also, he's back on the ventilator.  The pulmunary team had to fight for that, because there's some kind of "blanket DNR (do not resuscitate) order" -- meaning that you don't put someone on a ventilator if they're not expected to live.  You save the ventilators for the ones that can be saved.  Cold, but that's what it is.  Apparently they won the fight because he was doing well enough to not need it, but it was a premature decision (forced by the shortage of ventilators in the first place) so they were able to put him back on it.

So there are now three teams of doctors assigned to him.  He has a heart condition, which is what put him at risk in the first place, so he has a cardiology team.  He has the pulmonary team of course, and now a neurology team because of the stroke.  The neurologists can't tell how bad it is, because to take him down to radiology to do a scan, they'd have to take him off the ventilator, and the pulmonary team won't let them do that because if they take him off of it, even temporarily, they'll have to fight to get him back on it again, and they don't know if they can win the fight again.  So currently he lies there.

The girls were assigned a patient advocate, which is a good thing.  The patient advocate raised some hell with the chief of staff of the hospital (or whatever the title is) and so tomorrow, the three teams and the chief of staff will meet to try to reach some kind of coordinated treatment plan.  Unless something changes, for better or worse, between now and then to force their hands.

Once again, fuck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 06, 2020, 10:15:17 PM

I'm so so sorry that you're going through all this Orbert. I really hope he and his wife both pull through.  And the damage from the stroke wasn't too bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on April 06, 2020, 10:27:14 PM

Just want to say, awesome job Chino! Hopefully it makes a difference. I'm sure it will  :tup I went to the Amazon link you posted to order you something. Looks like Podaar beat me to the punch  :lol  :metal


On a side note, I just found out that one of the guys working in the same house as me all last week (working for a different sub-contractor) was just diagnosed with Covid-19 over the weekend.... I'm not too concerned for myself, but my wife is the administrator for an assisted living facility, so she comes in contact with a lot of older people on a daily basis. I just hope I didn't inadvertently spread it to her....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 07, 2020, 01:07:21 AM

So sorry Orbert  :-\ fingers crossed and hoping the doctors will pull through!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 07, 2020, 06:08:18 AM

I wonder how many lives were saved from auto accidents over
the last  3-4 weeks, and if that number comes close to offsetting
The Covid deaths?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 07, 2020, 06:17:53 AM

That's awful Orbert.  Just when I feel like I'm getting used to our situation, a story like that shocks me back into reality.  Hang in there!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 07, 2020, 06:50:24 AM

Orbert, so sorry to hear that, I really hope they both pull through.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 07, 2020, 07:27:05 AM

Wrong thread

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 07, 2020, 07:28:06 AM

Thanks, guys.  I feel so sorry for their girls.  Both parents in, and nothing they can do about it, so they sit at home and wait for updates from the doctors.  The worst part about all of this is the feeling that you can't do anything about it.

Well, except Chino.  Chino is the man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 07, 2020, 07:30:31 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 06, 2020, 10:15:17 PM

I'm so so sorry that you're going through all this Orbert. I really hope he and his wife both pull through.  And the damage from the stroke wasn't too bad.

So sorry to hear about this.
Hope both he and his wife gets better and hope the stroke did not cause much damage.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on April 07, 2020, 11:09:53 AM

Be safe my DTF Family... I pray the worst is behind us.


EPICVIEW

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 07, 2020, 11:21:47 AM

Italy reported less than 4,000 cases for the first time since March 17. It look a while but Italy's numbers are starting to go down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 07, 2020, 11:29:32 AM

My manager at the store I work at called to tell me a vendor who's delivery I checked in tested positive for the virus. Does that mean I'm immune seeing as this was like 2 weeks ago?  ???

*Randy Orton pose*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 07, 2020, 11:36:49 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 07, 2020, 11:29:32 AM

My manager at the store I work at called to tell me a vendor who's delivery I checked in tested positive for the virus. Does that mean I'm immune seeing as this was like 2 weeks ago?  ???

*Randy Orton pose*

No. Not everyone who has contact with someone ends up getting it, nor does everyone show symptoms. So either A, you just didn't contract it, or B, you did but never showed any symptoms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 07, 2020, 12:03:14 PM

Quote from: EPICVIEW on April 07, 2020, 11:09:53 AM

Be safe my DTF Family... I pray the worst is behind us.


EPICVIEW

Same to you too my friend.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 07, 2020, 12:27:51 PM

In foreign news, there was an israelian minister, also a rabbi, that said that the virus was God's punishment for homosexuality.

........I assume you all can take a wild guess about where this is going, right? and what's the current health state of said minister  :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 07, 2020, 12:29:51 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 07, 2020, 12:27:51 PM

In foreign news, there was an israelian minister, also a rabbi, that said that the virus was God's punishment for homosexuality.

........I assume you all can take a wild guess about where this is going, right? and what's the current health state of said minister  :P

Israeli*

And he's the health minister.



THE HEALTH MINISTER!



Edit: I'm not yelling at you. I'm yelling because it's just so insane .

2nd edit: Also dude said that the messiah will come (around now) anyway so no big deal.




THE HEALTH MINISTER!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 07, 2020, 12:40:35 PM

THE HEALTH MINISTER

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 07, 2020, 12:44:56 PM

Quote from: Elite on April 07, 2020, 12:40:35 PM

THE HEALTH MINISTER!!!

Fixed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 07, 2020, 12:45:55 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 07, 2020, 11:36:49 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 07, 2020, 11:29:32 AM

My manager at the store I work at called to tell me a vendor who's delivery I checked in tested positive for the virus. Does that mean I'm immune seeing as this was like 2 weeks ago?  ???

*Randy Orton pose*

No. Not everyone who has contact with someone ends up getting it, nor does everyone show symptoms. So either A, you just didn't contract it, or B, you did but never showed any symptoms.

There is also option C which is you have it don't show any symptoms but can still infect others. Not trying to scare anyone but it's just a matter of fact...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 07, 2020, 01:16:26 PM

Well, technically, that's still option B, just with more information.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 01:19:48 PM

Also to clarify, if you did get it and were asymptomatic, you may have developed some immunity.  The problem is no one knows for sure if you would be immune or how immune you actually are to maybe a large dose of the virus or a slightly different strand.  The point being, even if you do gain some immunity from catching the virus and recovering (asymptomatic or not), you should still proceed with caution and act as if you are not immune at all.  But based on other virus' and what Dr. Fauci has been saying, there is some truth to potentially gaining an immunity to the virus after recovery.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 07, 2020, 01:58:37 PM

Meanwhile, Wisconsin held its primary vote yesterday with in person voting, overriding the push by their governor to delay it until June.  The vast majority of polling places were not open, as most volunteers refused to report, absentee ballots will not be received in time, etc etc.  The US Supreme Court upheld Wisconsin's Supreme Court ruling that it must be held in person.

btw.....both courts made their decisions via teleconferencing :facepalm: :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 02:05:55 PM

yea, that's crazy.  I mean, it's a real issue.  How do we hold our elections this year?

Also, NYC was seeming to maybe see data of flattening the curve, the last two days total daily deaths were going down... then today is so far the most deaths in one day in NYC at over 700.  Just when there might have been some hope.. I see Iron Maiden had some shows cancelled this summer, one in Denmark where they are saying social gatherings are all banned until August.  Ugh that's a long time away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 07, 2020, 02:15:07 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 02:05:55 PM

yea, that's crazy.  I mean, it's a real issue.  How do we hold our elections this year?

If we had an administration with any kind of decency, we'd already be building the infrastructure for a nation-wide vote from home. My guess is, if anything, we'll see them try and delay the election rather than let people vote by mail.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 07, 2020, 02:38:55 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 07, 2020, 02:15:07 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 02:05:55 PM

yea, that's crazy.  I mean, it's a real issue.  How do we hold our elections this year?

If we had an administration with any kind of decency, we'd already be building the infrastructure for a nation-wide vote from home. My guess is, if anything, we'll see them try and delay the election rather than let people vote by mail.

There's non-COVID-19, non-Trump issues with that, though.  Not everyone is all-in on "vote from home". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 07, 2020, 02:44:46 PM

I never looked this stat up before but according to the CDC site,
between 290K to 690K people die annually, globally from the flu.
Kind of puts things in perspective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 07, 2020, 02:49:34 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2020, 02:38:55 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 07, 2020, 02:15:07 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 02:05:55 PM

yea, that's crazy.  I mean, it's a real issue.  How do we hold our elections this year?

If we had an administration with any kind of decency, we'd already be building the infrastructure for a nation-wide vote from home. My guess is, if anything, we'll see them try and delay the election rather than let people vote by mail.

There's non-COVID-19, non-Trump issues with that, though.  Not everyone is all-in on "vote from home".

Not everyone was all-in on "stay in place" or "you must bring your own reusable bags to the grocery store", but here we are.

Given the circumstance, I don't see how this isn't being explored/heavily considered. At least for this particular election.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 07, 2020, 02:55:35 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 07, 2020, 02:49:34 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2020, 02:38:55 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 07, 2020, 02:15:07 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 02:05:55 PM

yea, that's crazy.  I mean, it's a real issue.  How do we hold our elections this year?

If we had an administration with any kind of decency, we'd already be building the infrastructure for a nation-wide vote from home. My guess is, if anything, we'll see them try and delay the election rather than let people vote by mail.

There's non-COVID-19, non-Trump issues with that, though.  Not everyone is all-in on "vote from home".

Not everyone was all-in on "stay in place" or "you must bring your own reusable bags to the grocery store", but here we are.

Given the circumstance, I don't see how this isn't being explored/heavily considered. At least for this particular election.

"Good cases make bad law". 

I see profound differences between "stay in place" and "[bags]", and fundamentally altering the course of our elections, a component of which - the perception of trust/reliability - is almost as important as the actual votes themselves.  The whole essence of "Russia!" was the mere idea that our election was corrupted (notwithstanding that Russia has been involving itself for the better part of 50 years, but that's neither here.  Nor there.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 07, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

We can move to P/R (and totally non-partisan), but considering all the things we can do from home in 2020, why are we still voting like it is 1936?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 02:59:26 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 07, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

We can move to P/R (and totally non-partisan), but considering all the things we can do from home in 2020, why are we still voting like it is 1936?

I can imagine the potential for hacking and rigging an online voting election.  Plus how do you prove who is voting?  There's a lot that can go wrong with voting online.  Not to say voting in person is a perfect solution, just that online seems way more potentially bad IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 07, 2020, 03:02:55 PM

I was thinking by mail, which is something WA has been doing for years. So at least it feels more like 1986 and not 1936.

No, nothing is perfect. I am not convinced they don't toss the ballots for candidates they don't like, and "finding" ballots for those they do, especially when that person is behind in a close election. Going to a voting place makes the most sense, if it were like on a Saturday and took no one more than 15 minutes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 07, 2020, 03:10:17 PM

If there are queues for shopping groceries, there can be queues for voting in a presidential election. Spread people out, let one in at a time, make the distances be respected. At worst, make it last 48 hours, if longer queues makes it impossible to get in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 07, 2020, 05:36:43 PM

This is what my masks look like finished. Next batch is going to be black  :metal

(https://i.imgur.com/qCFG4UE.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 07, 2020, 05:45:46 PM

Looks awesome chino!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 07, 2020, 06:38:05 PM

Fucking sweet!! :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 07, 2020, 06:38:55 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 07, 2020, 03:02:55 PM

I was thinking by mail, which is something WA has been doing for years. So at least it feels more like 1986 and not 1936.

No, nothing is perfect. I am not convinced they don't toss the ballots for candidates they don't like, and "finding" ballots for those they do, especially when that person is behind in a close election. Going to a voting place makes the most sense, if it were like on a Saturday and took no one more than 15 minutes.

But that's a good point and part of what I'm going for.   I think people would be surprised how many votes were cast last go-round (2016) either early (that is, in person, but not on Election Day at the polls), or absentee/mail-in: about 40%.  Some states, more than 50% of votes cast were NOT on Election Day.  That's fine.  But of the 16 states that had more than 50% of their votes cast, shall we say, "virtually", 9 went Republican, totalling about 25M out of 40M votes (and that includes California's whopping 8.5M "virtual" votes).  In as divisive an environment as we live in, where the mere mention of "Russia" is enough to open inquiries into election interference, where facts are far less integral to our thought processes than we care to admit, I'm not sure the psyche of the 50% of the American voting public that doesn't get their way in November is ready for this type of system to be forced into place in the space of a couple months. And god forbid we don't have a result on the night of Election Day, or at the very least when we wake up to coffee the next day (double that if Trump wins, triple that if Trump loses!)

This is where I got my voting numbers (https://www.eac.gov/documents/2017/10/17/eavs-deep-dive-early-absentee-and-mail-voting-data-statutory-overview).

This is a good article about the ramp up in time, cost, work-force, and learning curve (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/03/vote-by-mail-difficulties/).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 07, 2020, 06:44:34 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 07, 2020, 05:36:43 PM

This is what my masks look like finished. Next batch is going to be black  :metal

 :metal :metal :metal :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 07, 2020, 07:06:58 PM

I'm amazed by the whole 3D printing process. I don't even get it. Do you buy planks or pages of plastic?  I can't imagine this would be cheap.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 07, 2020, 09:26:51 PM

Update on David (because I have nothing better to do, and there are now people following his story):

Before the doctors could all have their meeting to try to figure out the next steps, David threw a wrench into all that by waking up!  He was alert and responding to questions this morning.  Can't speak, because he's still on the ventilator, but he seems to have movement on the right side, and some movement on the left side.  He can move his left hand a bit, but not his left leg (yet?).  Still, this is huge.  He's still critical, not out of the woods or even close yet, but very encouraging.  He's a fighter.  What a difference 24 hours can make.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 07, 2020, 09:53:44 PM

Wow!  That's incredible Bob.  Very happy for you, and his loved ones.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 07, 2020, 10:04:03 PM

Glad to hear about that Orbert!  I hope he continues to improve.  Is his wife doing any better?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 07, 2020, 10:17:27 PM

That is good to hear, Orbert!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on April 07, 2020, 10:22:55 PM

Death toll is heating up here in Eastern PA.

We've had two decedents who were tested and ended up coming back negative. We have another pending testing now, and just got the call we have our first positive case. That positive also came with a "can you please get them now because our hospital morgue is full" request. In addition I spoke to the family of someone yesterday who has someone on hospice and who has now tested positive, so that was already just a matter of time which now sees said time being drastically shorter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 07, 2020, 10:29:27 PM

Glad to hear that Orbert!
Hope he gets a full recovery and that his wife also gets well.

What a relief it must be for the daughters.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 08, 2020, 01:07:47 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 07, 2020, 09:26:51 PM

Update on David (because I have nothing better to do, and there are now people following his story):

Before the doctors could all have their meeting to try to figure out the next steps, David threw a wrench into all that by waking up!  He was alert and responding to questions this morning.  Can't speak, because he's still on the ventilator, but he seems to have movement on the right side, and some movement on the left side.  He can move his left hand a bit, but not his left leg (yet?).  Still, this is huge.  He's still critical, not out of the woods or even close yet, but very encouraging.  He's a fighter.  What a difference 24 hours can make.

Nice to know!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 08, 2020, 05:02:19 AM

Orbert, that’s good news. Hope he continues to get better.

Nick, that’s pretty awful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 08, 2020, 05:31:00 AM

Phew, good news Orbert! Thanks for letting us know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on April 08, 2020, 05:37:53 AM

That's good news!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2020, 06:02:16 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 07, 2020, 09:26:51 PM

Update on David (because I have nothing better to do, and there are now people following his story):

Before the doctors could all have their meeting to try to figure out the next steps, David threw a wrench into all that by waking up!  He was alert and responding to questions this morning.  Can't speak, because he's still on the ventilator, but he seems to have movement on the right side, and some movement on the left side.  He can move his left hand a bit, but not his left leg (yet?).  Still, this is huge.  He's still critical, not out of the woods or even close yet, but very encouraging.  He's a fighter.  What a difference 24 hours can make.

Damn, that'd good to read. Clots are scary, man. I had 18 nights in ICU because of them. I ended up getting a filter put in the main artery of my leg. I guarantee David gets the same thing. That way, if he throws clots again in the future, they'll get caught in the filter instead of being routed to the lungs or brain.

Hoping for his continued improvement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 08, 2020, 07:12:59 AM

Quote from: Nick on April 07, 2020, 10:22:55 PM

Death toll is heating up here in Eastern PA.

We've had two decedents who were tested and ended up coming back negative. We have another pending testing now, and just got the call we have our first positive case. That positive also came with a "can you please get them now because our hospital morgue is full" request. In addition I spoke to the family of someone yesterday who has someone on hospice and who has now tested positive, so that was already just a matter of time which now sees said time being drastically shorter.

Are you in any danger? Do "we" have a good idea of the science of this down the line?  Does the virus die when the host does?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 08, 2020, 07:15:11 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2020, 06:02:16 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 07, 2020, 09:26:51 PM

Update on David (because I have nothing better to do, and there are now people following his story):

Before the doctors could all have their meeting to try to figure out the next steps, David threw a wrench into all that by waking up!  He was alert and responding to questions this morning.  Can't speak, because he's still on the ventilator, but he seems to have movement on the right side, and some movement on the left side.  He can move his left hand a bit, but not his left leg (yet?).  Still, this is huge.  He's still critical, not out of the woods or even close yet, but very encouraging.  He's a fighter.  What a difference 24 hours can make.

Damn, that'd good to read. Clots are scary, man. I had 18 nights in ICU because of them. I ended up getting a filter put in the main artery of my leg. I guarantee David gets the same thing. That way, if he throws clots again in the future, they'll get caught in the filter instead of being routed to the lungs or brain.

Hoping for his continued improvement.

I'm weird like that; I still have that sort of youthful feeling of invincibility, with two exceptions:  I fear getting hit in the mouth/losing teeth, and I fear a clot.   Not always, but sometimes when I fly, I'm like John Bonham moving my legs.  I don't know if it helps or not, but I have this paranoia that that's how "age" is going to hit me (poor circulation). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 08, 2020, 07:44:24 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 07, 2020, 10:04:03 PM

Glad to hear about that Orbert!  I hope he continues to improve.  Is his wife doing any better?

There has been no significant change to Nancy's condition.  She's still on a ventilator, critical, and in the ICU, but they were able to reduce her sedation level a little bit yesterday.  I don't know how they determined that.  It seems to me that a patient is sedated when they're in pain and it's more humane to just knock them out, or if by moving around they could injure themselves or interfere with the treatment or something.  Or maybe if their body is ravaged and they can get better rest (and thus hopefully recover more quickly) if they're unconscious 24/7.  I'm not sure which, if any of these, applies to patients fighting the virus.  I hadn't really thought about that aspect.

So yes, it was definitely good news for all, especially the daughters.  They're both college students and came home at the start of this mess, so now after being back in the house for a month and dealing with this (which is mostly waiting to hear updates from the doctors), money is starting to become an issue.  David is still being paid, but his paychecks are direct deposited and the girls don't have access to his accounts.  They're not sure what's Nancy's situation is, but the girls have her ATM card and think they know her PIN.  They were going to try yesterday.  David has a brother in New York, but New York is locked down tight right now.  The next closest thing they have to family is us, the band.  John lives nearby and is (to put it bluntly) a millionaire, so he has promised to help them however he can.  For now that just means making sure they're fed and the bills are being paid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2020, 07:52:37 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 08, 2020, 07:15:11 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2020, 06:02:16 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 07, 2020, 09:26:51 PM

Update on David (because I have nothing better to do, and there are now people following his story):

Before the doctors could all have their meeting to try to figure out the next steps, David threw a wrench into all that by waking up!  He was alert and responding to questions this morning.  Can't speak, because he's still on the ventilator, but he seems to have movement on the right side, and some movement on the left side.  He can move his left hand a bit, but not his left leg (yet?).  Still, this is huge.  He's still critical, not out of the woods or even close yet, but very encouraging.  He's a fighter.  What a difference 24 hours can make.

Damn, that'd good to read. Clots are scary, man. I had 18 nights in ICU because of them. I ended up getting a filter put in the main artery of my leg. I guarantee David gets the same thing. That way, if he throws clots again in the future, they'll get caught in the filter instead of being routed to the lungs or brain.

Hoping for his continued improvement.

I'm weird like that; I still have that sort of youthful feeling of invincibility, with two exceptions:  I fear getting hit in the mouth/losing teeth, and I fear a clot.   Not always, but sometimes when I fly, I'm like John Bonham moving my legs.  I don't know if it helps or not, but I have this paranoia that that's how "age" is going to hit me (poor circulation).

I worry about that so much because of the amount of time I spend sitting in traffic, at a desk, and in meeting rooms. I have to admit that I feel a lot better knowing that that filter is in there. Clots in the lungs was without question the most painful thing I ever experienced (that includes the days following falling off a building). I initially went to the hospital because I thought I was having a heart attack.

Clotting seems to be such a big issue and those filters are very easy to put in. I'm honestly surprised more aren't put in preemptively. I was conscious through the whole thing and watched the procedure on a TV screen in real time. It took less than 20 minutes. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 08, 2020, 08:10:34 AM

My wife had an issue a few years back with blood clots, and she's still on blood thinners to prevent them from re-forming.  During the initial treatment (the first six or eight months or so, I forget now), they'd installed a filter to catch them as they broke up, to prevent the type of issues that David had.  It does seem like such an easy and obvious thing to do, but I'm not going to try and second-guess the doctors dealing with all this shit right now.  Apparently it's not automatic, not routinely done, so I guess that means they have to think of it, and they had other stuff to think about at the time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on April 08, 2020, 08:35:45 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/M9pzaX3.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2020, 09:10:41 AM

Corvid?  How did the "r" get in there?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 08, 2020, 09:12:44 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2020, 09:10:41 AM

Corvid?  How did the "r" get in there?

CORona VIrus Disease 2019



Edit- oh shit, it is COVID....and I did all that fancy bold work for nothing...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2020, 09:17:28 AM

There might be some success with plasma treatment from recovered people

https://www.yahoo.com/news/plasma-treatment-being-tested-york-213100838.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/plasma-treatment-being-tested-york-213100838.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 08, 2020, 09:31:02 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 08, 2020, 07:44:24 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 07, 2020, 10:04:03 PM

Glad to hear about that Orbert!  I hope he continues to improve.  Is his wife doing any better?

There has been no significant change to Nancy's condition.  She's still on a ventilator, critical, and in the ICU, but they were able to reduce her sedation level a little bit yesterday.  I don't know how they determined that.  It seems to me that a patient is sedated when they're in pain and it's more humane to just knock them out, or if by moving around they could injure themselves or interfere with the treatment or something.  Or maybe if their body is ravaged and they can get better rest (and thus hopefully recover more quickly) if they're unconscious 24/7.  I'm not sure which, if any of these, applies to patients fighting the virus.  I hadn't really thought about that aspect.

From what I understand from a neurological standpoint, the longer the ventilated person is kept heavily sedated, the more risks of long term changes in mental status.  Not long ago the thought was that vent patients needed sedation to keep them comfortable and from "fighting" the vent process which can be very upsetting to patients.  I mean think about it.  You can't talk, you can't cough, your nose and lips are dry and itchy and you can't touch/scratch, you have a machine essentially forcing air into your lungs - it's scary.  A few years ago, they discovered that heavy sedation and vent patients were having longer periods of confusion and agitation once they were weaned off and transferred out of the ICU.  So the theory now is that light sedation is better.  Though before my mother died I could tell that being lightly sedated was freaking her out to the point she kept trying to pull the tubes out of her body.  I was shocked they weren't sedating her more heavily and that is what the nurses there told me about sedation and vent use.

There is an additional issue of some hospitals/areas running out of anesthetic drugs used to keep vent patients sedated. I hope it's not that in your friend's wife's case.  Because that's just horrifying on so many levels.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on April 08, 2020, 09:33:09 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 07, 2020, 12:03:14 PM

Quote from: EPICVIEW on April 07, 2020, 11:09:53 AM

Be safe my DTF Family... I pray the worst is behind us.


EPICVIEW

Same to you too my friend.  :tup

Thank You my bro 

peace and love to all

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on April 08, 2020, 11:02:24 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2020, 09:10:41 AM

Corvid?  How did the "r" get in there?

By making a shit pun based on the fact that Covid and Corvid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae) sound similar.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 08, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 08, 2020, 09:31:02 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 08, 2020, 07:44:24 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 07, 2020, 10:04:03 PM

Glad to hear about that Orbert!  I hope he continues to improve.  Is his wife doing any better?

There has been no significant change to Nancy's condition.  She's still on a ventilator, critical, and in the ICU, but they were able to reduce her sedation level a little bit yesterday.  I don't know how they determined that.  It seems to me that a patient is sedated when they're in pain and it's more humane to just knock them out, or if by moving around they could injure themselves or interfere with the treatment or something.  Or maybe if their body is ravaged and they can get better rest (and thus hopefully recover more quickly) if they're unconscious 24/7.  I'm not sure which, if any of these, applies to patients fighting the virus.  I hadn't really thought about that aspect.

From what I understand from a neurological standpoint, the longer the ventilated person is kept heavily sedated, the more risks of long term changes in mental status.  Not long ago the thought was that vent patients needed sedation to keep them comfortable and from "fighting" the vent process which can be very upsetting to patients.  I mean think about it.  You can't talk, you can't cough, your nose and lips are dry and itchy and you can't touch/scratch, you have a machine essentially forcing air into your lungs - it's scary.  A few years ago, they discovered that heavy sedation and vent patients were having longer periods of confusion and agitation once they were weaned off and transferred out of the ICU.  So the theory now is that light sedation is better.  Though before my mother died I could tell that being lightly sedated was freaking her out to the point she kept trying to pull the tubes out of her body.  I was shocked they weren't sedating her more heavily and that is what the nurses there told me about sedation and vent use.

There is an additional issue of some hospitals/areas running out of anesthetic drugs used to keep vent patients sedated. I hope it's not that in your friend's wife's case.  Because that's just horrifying on so many levels.

Thanks for that info.  It makes sense.  Just something I hadn't really thought about.

Only slightly related:  I had open-heart surgery years ago, and right before they put me under general anesthesia, the guy told me that I will go out, then the next thing I'll know, I'm awake and have a tube stuck down my throat.  They'll be monitoring me and will know when I'm awake, and someone will be there very shortly to remove the tube.  20 or 30 seconds, tops.  During that time, please try to remain calm, and if possible, resist the urge to cough.  Yes, it will be uncomfortable, but it will be out soon.  It played out exactly as he said.  Start counting backwards from 100 just like in movies... I think I got to 98.  Then I'm awake with a tube stuck down my throat, then there was someone there to pull it out.  Then I coughed a lot, which hurt like hell because I'd just had open-heart surgery.

Quote from: XJDenton on April 08, 2020, 11:02:24 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2020, 09:10:41 AM

Corvid?  How did the "r" get in there?

By making a shit pun based on the fact that Covid and Corvid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae) sound similar.

My wife pronounces it "Corvid".  I guess "Corvid" sounds more like a "real word" than "Covid".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on April 08, 2020, 12:11:32 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 08, 2020, 07:12:59 AM

Quote from: Nick on April 07, 2020, 10:22:55 PM

Death toll is heating up here in Eastern PA.

We've had two decedents who were tested and ended up coming back negative. We have another pending testing now, and just got the call we have our first positive case. That positive also came with a "can you please get them now because our hospital morgue is full" request. In addition I spoke to the family of someone yesterday who has someone on hospice and who has now tested positive, so that was already just a matter of time which now sees said time being drastically shorter.

Are you in any danger? Do "we" have a good idea of the science of this down the line?  Does the virus die when the host does?

Current CDC guidance, along with professional funeral groups are saying it's safe to transport and embalm with proper PPE. Most viral and bacterial illnesses are not a concern after death, and it seems like with COVID that seems to be the case as well, although I don't know how many direct studies have been done on that versus people comparing COVID-19 to known similar things. Once the body is embalmed that should basically sanitize any threat that would have remained, but even so if we're having our tiny less than 10 person funeral we are still to advise people do not touch the body.

Through all this the biggest boogeyman remains, especially in the case of the person having their brain autopsied or removed, Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease.

In any case, here you have it, the inevitable finally crossing my desk. 

(https://wpapu.com/images/COVID-01.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 08, 2020, 12:41:42 PM

Did anyone else read Nick's posts and get the urge to re-watch Six Feet Under? :P

Disclaimer: Apologies to anyone who thinks I am making light of a serious situation; I am just trying to add a little levity to a thread otherwise full of doom and gloom.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 08, 2020, 02:31:42 PM

My boss just sent a group text telling us that we’re going back to work at 6am May 5th unless the governor extends the order.

With Washington’s numbers leveling off, it appears we will likely go back to work. I just hope this isn’t premature.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2020, 03:01:55 PM

Quote from: jammindude on April 08, 2020, 02:31:42 PM

My boss just sent a group text telling us that we’re going back to work at 6am May 5th unless the governor extends the order.

With Washington’s numbers leveling off, it appears we will likely go back to work. I just hope this isn’t premature.

Interesting since almost everything I read today says this is going to much longer.  I'm trying to stay optimistic about the summer getting back to normal but that seems unlikely.  May is almost a gaurantee at this point to be more of the same.   

I was actually thinking if some people in the government know more about this because my homeland security papers that allow me to travel during this time actually expire at the end of May and that was given to half way through March so makes me wonder if even back then, they expected this to last through May.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2020, 03:39:05 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on April 08, 2020, 11:02:24 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2020, 09:10:41 AM

Corvid?  How did the "r" get in there?

By making a shit pun based on the fact that Covid and Corvid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae) sound similar.

Ah, I see.  Just goes to show how much I know about birds.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on April 09, 2020, 06:52:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 08, 2020, 03:01:55 PM

Quote from: jammindude on April 08, 2020, 02:31:42 PM

My boss just sent a group text telling us that we’re going back to work at 6am May 5th unless the governor extends the order.

With Washington’s numbers leveling off, it appears we will likely go back to work. I just hope this isn’t premature.

Interesting since almost everything I read today says this is going to much longer.  I'm trying to stay optimistic about the summer getting back to normal but that seems unlikely.  May is almost a gaurantee at this point to be more of the same.   

I was actually thinking if some people in the government know more about this because my homeland security papers that allow me to travel during this time actually expire at the end of May and that was given to half way through March so makes me wonder if even back then, they expected this to last through May.

I must have the same letter; issued 3/16, expires 5/28. I don't think they knew anything, just planned ahead

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 09, 2020, 07:27:52 AM

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/celebrity/tyler-perry-pays-for-groceries-during-senior-hours-in-new-orleans-atlanta/ar-BB12mXCm


:clap:  :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 09, 2020, 07:30:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 09, 2020, 07:27:52 AM

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/celebrity/tyler-perry-pays-for-groceries-during-senior-hours-in-new-orleans-atlanta/ar-BB12mXCm


:clap:  :hefdaddy

Hallelujer!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 09, 2020, 07:35:56 AM

Scientists have done intensive field investigation and analysis in and around the German town of Heinsberg, which is considered "ground zero" of the country's coronavirus epidemic and has an exceptionally high contagion rate after a carnival was held there. They gathered samples from various surfaces people frequently touch and found no signs of living coronavirus, meaning they couldn't farm new strains of it in the lab. This seems like a pretty promising result in learning how the virus does and does not spread.

My source for this is the Finnish national news and broadcast service YLE.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on April 09, 2020, 08:54:16 AM

Ivermectin kills COVID-19 wihin 48 hours:

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/techandscience/anti-parasitic-drug-ivermectin-can-kill-covid-19-coronavirus-within-48-hours-claim-australian-scientists/ar-BB12aUZx

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 09, 2020, 09:06:16 AM

That would be great news!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 09, 2020, 09:13:11 AM

The sheriff of one of the neighboring counties has COVID-19. Hooray!  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 09, 2020, 09:33:26 AM

Quote from: qed on April 09, 2020, 08:54:16 AM

Ivermectin kills COVID-19 wihin 48 hours:

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/techandscience/anti-parasitic-drug-ivermectin-can-kill-covid-19-coronavirus-within-48-hours-claim-australian-scientists/ar-BB12aUZx

I hope this works

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 09, 2020, 09:51:32 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 09, 2020, 09:33:26 AM

Quote from: qed on April 09, 2020, 08:54:16 AM

Ivermectin kills COVID-19 wihin 48 hours:

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/techandscience/anti-parasitic-drug-ivermectin-can-kill-covid-19-coronavirus-within-48-hours-claim-australian-scientists/ar-BB12aUZx

I hope this works

FDA approved, so if this does work this can be used sooner than later I'd imagine.  Let's hope.

Saw this today: https://www.fliegerfaust.com/united-states-and-canada-are-about-to-announce-the-shutdown-of-their-airspace-2645666276.html (https://www.fliegerfaust.com/united-states-and-canada-are-about-to-announce-the-shutdown-of-their-airspace-2645666276.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 09, 2020, 10:12:40 AM

Quote from: qed on April 09, 2020, 08:54:16 AM

Ivermectin kills COVID-19 wihin 48 hours:

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/techandscience/anti-parasitic-drug-ivermectin-can-kill-covid-19-coronavirus-within-48-hours-claim-australian-scientists/ar-BB12aUZx

Encouraging, but...

https://xkcd.com/1217/

(though at least unlike the chloroquines, ivermectin is quite safe)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 09, 2020, 01:31:47 PM

Posted 4 days ago and only Microsoft News is reporting it?


I'll be skeptical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 01:56:12 PM

Yep.  If it were legitimate, it seems like the media would be all over this right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 09, 2020, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 01:56:12 PM

Yep.  If it were legitimate, it seems like the media would be all over this right now.

It hasn't gotten picked up by any of the pharma rags, which is another (and perhaps bigger) strike against it.  It's not unreasonable to think it might have an effect (as it has effects on somewhat related viruses), but putting too much hope into it at the moment seems premature.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 09, 2020, 03:13:08 PM

Quote from: millahh on April 09, 2020, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 01:56:12 PM

Yep.  If it were legitimate, it seems like the media would be all over this right now.

It hasn't gotten picked up by any of the pharma rags, which is another (and perhaps bigger) strike against it.  It's not unreasonable to think it might have an effect (as it has effects on somewhat related viruses), but putting too much hope into it at the moment seems premature.

While it's always good to be skeptical I did find this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

Abstract
Although several clinical trials are now underway to test possible therapies, the worldwide response to the COVID-19 outbreak has been largely limited to monitoring/containment. We report here that Ivermectin, an FDA-approved anti-parasitic previously shown to have broad-spectrum anti-viral activity in vitro, is an inhibitor of the causative virus (SARS-CoV-2), with a single addition to Vero-hSLAM cells 2 hours post infection with SARS-CoV-2 able to effect ∼5000-fold reduction in viral RNA at 48 h. Ivermectin therefore warrants further investigation for possible benefits in humans.

So from what I have been reading the test was basically done in a petri dish with positive results but still needs a lot of work to see if it's viable for humans. I guess we'll see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 09, 2020, 03:24:03 PM

Just sharing something that happened today.

My wife went in for a doctor's appt today. (nothing serious...just needed her CPAP checked). The doctor shared his insight that while news outlets are reporting that Washington is getting better, his personal observation is that Valley General Hospital is actually getting worse (this is our local hospital and one of (if not the) primary hospital in South King County). He also said that if everyone goes back to normal when the governors shut down order ends on May 5th, all the good we've done so far will be undone, and we will get a whole new spike of cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 09, 2020, 03:32:06 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 09, 2020, 03:13:08 PM

Quote from: millahh on April 09, 2020, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 01:56:12 PM

Yep.  If it were legitimate, it seems like the media would be all over this right now.

It hasn't gotten picked up by any of the pharma rags, which is another (and perhaps bigger) strike against it.  It's not unreasonable to think it might have an effect (as it has effects on somewhat related viruses), but putting too much hope into it at the moment seems premature.

While it's always good to be skeptical I did find this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

Abstract
Although several clinical trials are now underway to test possible therapies, the worldwide response to the COVID-19 outbreak has been largely limited to monitoring/containment. We report here that Ivermectin, an FDA-approved anti-parasitic previously shown to have broad-spectrum anti-viral activity in vitro, is an inhibitor of the causative virus (SARS-CoV-2), with a single addition to Vero-hSLAM cells 2 hours post infection with SARS-CoV-2 able to effect ∼5000-fold reduction in viral RNA at 48 h. Ivermectin therefore warrants further investigation for possible benefits in humans.

So from what I have been reading the test was basically done in a petri dish with positive results but still needs a lot of work to see if it's viable for humans. I guess we'll see.

Thanks for sharing that. I'm encouraged that it's not being overstated in the journal article (as an aside...the speed with which everything needs to move on this is surely doing some interesting things to academic publishing and peer review).

Lord knows the stuff is cheap enough, and is already made on a massive scale for use in the developing world (and much of that is donated).  And it has a really clean safety profile...unlike the chloroquines, which I think may be unique bad here, as viral myocarditis is a major concern, heart disease is a significant co-morbidity, and piling QT prolongation on top of that seems like a really bad idea. I'm sure any number of hospitals are getting protocols for ivermectin in COVID-19 patients through their IRBs as we speak..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 09, 2020, 03:37:45 PM

Quote from: jammindude on April 09, 2020, 03:24:03 PM

He also said that if everyone goes back to normal when the governors shut down order ends on May 5th, all the good we've done so far will be undone, and we will get a whole new spike of cases.

This obviously the big problem, or dilemma. When can we go back to 'normal'? (Not any time soon if we don't want shit to happen) Will it ever be the same again after Covid-19? (No.) Are people willing enough to accept that? How well does your country's (local) government handle this situation and how well do they inform the people? Are plans being made for the future?

We're in a new reality, let's face it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 09, 2020, 04:03:10 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 01:56:12 PM

Yep.  If it were legitimate, it seems like the media would be all over this right now.

Of course not. The Lamestream media has no interest in anything that might undermine this conspiracy against our President.  At least until Comrade Biden takes office in January.


(I'M KIDDING!  I'M KIDDING!  Lighten up, Francis!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 09, 2020, 04:03:54 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/most-york-coronavirus-cases-came-120729916.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/most-york-coronavirus-cases-came-120729916.html)

Quote

New research indicates that the coronavirus began to circulate in the New York area by mid-February, weeks before the first confirmed case, and that travelers brought in the virus mainly from Europe, not Asia.

Reading stuff like this makes me totally feel like I was already infected.  This was around before they started confirming cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 04:08:14 PM

Quote from: Elite on April 09, 2020, 03:37:45 PM

Quote from: jammindude on April 09, 2020, 03:24:03 PM

He also said that if everyone goes back to normal when the governors shut down order ends on May 5th, all the good we've done so far will be undone, and we will get a whole new spike of cases.

This obviously the big problem, or dilemma. When can we go back to 'normal'? (Not any time soon if we don't want shit to happen) Will it ever be the same again after Covid-19? (No.) Are people willing enough to accept that? How well does your country's (local) government handle this situation and how well do they inform the people? Are plans being made for the future?

We're in a new reality, let's face it.

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but it seems to me that returning to normal any time before we have a cure/treatment/vaccine is premature.  The virus will still be out there.  If we all go back to normal, then we just go out and start spreading it around again, catching it again, and thousands more die.  Repeat until we finally learn, or we're all dead.

The only scenario I can think of where this doesn't apply is the post-apocalypic sci-fi scenario.  The entire world's population is decimated, but that's because everyone who's going to die from it has died by now.  Everyone left is asymptomatic or just plain immune.  At that point, sure, go back to normal, whatever that is at that point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 09, 2020, 04:16:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 09, 2020, 04:03:10 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 01:56:12 PM

Yep.  If it were legitimate, it seems like the media would be all over this right now.

Of course not. The Lamestream media has no interest in anything that might undermine this conspiracy against our President.  At least until Comrade Biden takes office in January.


(I'M KIDDING!  I'M KIDDING!  Lighten up, Francis!)

You just made the list.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 09, 2020, 04:22:57 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 09, 2020, 04:08:14 PM

Quote from: Elite on April 09, 2020, 03:37:45 PM

Quote from: jammindude on April 09, 2020, 03:24:03 PM

He also said that if everyone goes back to normal when the governors shut down order ends on May 5th, all the good we've done so far will be undone, and we will get a whole new spike of cases.

This obviously the big problem, or dilemma. When can we go back to 'normal'? (Not any time soon if we don't want shit to happen) Will it ever be the same again after Covid-19? (No.) Are people willing enough to accept that? How well does your country's (local) government handle this situation and how well do they inform the people? Are plans being made for the future?

We're in a new reality, let's face it.

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but it seems to me that returning to normal any time before we have a cure/treatment/vaccine is premature.  The virus will still be out there.  If we all go back to normal, then we just go out and start spreading it around again, catching it again, and thousands more die.  Repeat until we finally learn, or we're all dead.

The only scenario I can think of where this doesn't apply is the post-apocalypic sci-fi scenario.  The entire world's population is decimated, but that's because everyone who's going to die from it has died by now.  Everyone left is asymptomatic or just plain immune.  At that point, sure, go back to normal, whatever that is at that point.

I don't know; call me an optimist, but I don't think we'll be back to "normal" as it was in 2019, we'll be back to our "new normal".   I can tell you that when things are lifted, I'm not rubbing bellies with complete strangers at Home Depot.   Restaurants might be difficult, and when I do go out, I'm a bar guy, so that "rubbing elbows" thing will be downplayed.  Concerts will be tough.  But there are a lot of things that can be done to mitigate, if not eliminate, risk.  COVID-19 is not the flu, I get the talking point, but there are ways in which we have co-existed with contagious viruses in the past; I think we'll find a way to do that in the future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 09, 2020, 04:25:10 PM

Four more months of an essential only economy and the country
will die. At some point, within a couple months max, we're going to
have to suit-up and move forward. If we don't, the country as we have
always known it, will no longer exist.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 09, 2020, 04:39:03 PM

Quote from: emtee on April 09, 2020, 04:25:10 PM

Four more months of an essential only economy and the country
will die. At some point, within a couple months max, we're going to
have to suit-up and move forward. If we don't, the country as we have
always known it, will no longer exist.

I think you're right emtee.  Although I don't think it will take 4 months.  I think only one more month of this and we're toast before 3 weeks of it are up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on April 09, 2020, 06:53:22 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 09, 2020, 01:31:47 PM

Posted 4 days ago and only Microsoft News is reporting it?


I'll be skeptical.

It's in world news, originally posted on Monash University website:

https://www.monash.edu/discovery-institute/news-and-events/news/2020-articles/Lab-experiments-show-anti-parasitic-drug,-Ivermectin,-eliminates-SARS-CoV-2-in-cells-in-48-hours

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 09, 2020, 07:04:15 PM

Quote from: qed on April 09, 2020, 06:53:22 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 09, 2020, 01:31:47 PM

Posted 4 days ago and only Microsoft News is reporting it?


I'll be skeptical.

It's in world news, originally posted on Monash University website:

https://www.monash.edu/discovery-institute/news-and-events/news/2020-articles/Lab-experiments-show-anti-parasitic-drug,-Ivermectin,-eliminates-SARS-CoV-2-in-cells-in-48-hours

If someone actually figured a for sure cure for covid, it would be on every network, not just a few small ones.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 09, 2020, 10:19:25 PM

Governor (IL) today said you should probably think about cancelling all large summer gatherings now. He doesn't think we can return to larger gatherings until there is a vaccine.

Probably means Primus will end up getting cancelled/postponed. Wedding anniversary is in 2 months. Guess we are celebrating at home.

Oh well, just waiting on my stimulus check so I can finally buy my riding lawn mower. Only good thing truly coming out of this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:33:55 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 09, 2020, 07:04:15 PM

Quote from: qed on April 09, 2020, 06:53:22 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 09, 2020, 01:31:47 PM

Posted 4 days ago and only Microsoft News is reporting it?


I'll be skeptical.

It's in world news, originally posted on Monash University website:

https://www.monash.edu/discovery-institute/news-and-events/news/2020-articles/Lab-experiments-show-anti-parasitic-drug,-Ivermectin,-eliminates-SARS-CoV-2-in-cells-in-48-hours

If someone actually figured a for sure cure for covid, it would be on every network, not just a few small ones.

'Every network' is a government sponsored facility. Just search for exapmle duckduckgo.com news and see for yourself, it's everywhere else, except for MSM.

Monash University discovered that Ivermectin almost completely destroys COVID-19 within 48 hours in vitro, i.e. in laboratory. Now they need money to test it on humans, as simple as that. Ivermectin has been invented in 1981 and since then the inventors even obtained a Noble prize in 2015.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:36:36 AM

It seems you're quite into this, so I'll back off.

My only point was that if a sudden cure was discovered it wouldn't be so quietly reported, if nothing else a bunch of loud idiots in politics would be touting it in hopes of inspiring the economy to go up a bit. But sure, maybe they suddenly discovered the cure and most news networks simply don't care yet. Not a big deal, have at it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:38:17 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:36:36 AM

It seems you're quite into this, so I'll back off.

My only point was that if a sudden cure was discovered it wouldn't be so quietly reported, if nothing else a bunch of loud idiots in politics would be touting it in hopes of inspiring the economy to go up a bit. But sure, maybe they suddenly discovered the cure and most news networks simply don't care yet. Not a big deal, have at it.

It just shows that Australia is not NWO :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:40:43 AM

Quote from: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:38:17 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:36:36 AM

It seems you're quite into this, so I'll back off.

My only point was that if a sudden cure was discovered it wouldn't be so quietly reported, if nothing else a bunch of loud idiots in politics would be touting it in hopes of inspiring the economy to go up a bit. But sure, maybe they suddenly discovered the cure and most news networks simply don't care yet. Not a big deal, have at it.

It just shows that Australia is not NWO :tup

Not even sure what that means. But Australia has Blob and Kangaroos, my favorite animals. So Australia always gets a thumbs up from me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:57:22 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:40:43 AM

Quote from: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:38:17 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:36:36 AM

It seems you're quite into this, so I'll back off.

My only point was that if a sudden cure was discovered it wouldn't be so quietly reported, if nothing else a bunch of loud idiots in politics would be touting it in hopes of inspiring the economy to go up a bit. But sure, maybe they suddenly discovered the cure and most news networks simply don't care yet. Not a big deal, have at it.

It just shows that Australia is not NWO :tup

Not even sure what that means. But Australia has Blob and Kangaroos, my favorite animals. So Australia always gets a thumbs up from me.

NWO = New World Order, or 'New World' order.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 10, 2020, 07:11:13 AM

Quote from: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:57:22 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:40:43 AM

Quote from: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:38:17 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:36:36 AM

It seems you're quite into this, so I'll back off.

My only point was that if a sudden cure was discovered it wouldn't be so quietly reported, if nothing else a bunch of loud idiots in politics would be touting it in hopes of inspiring the economy to go up a bit. But sure, maybe they suddenly discovered the cure and most news networks simply don't care yet. Not a big deal, have at it.

It just shows that Australia is not NWO :tup

Not even sure what that means. But Australia has Blob and Kangaroos, my favorite animals. So Australia always gets a thumbs up from me.

NWO = New World Order, or 'New World' order.

NWO or ONW?  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 10, 2020, 07:21:26 AM

Call me overly optimistic, but pandemics over history have always eventually burned themselves out. Yes, perhaps only after killing millions of people. But there's no reason to think this one won't be stopped after a while. How long remains to be seen. I could see a couple of bounce backs after things get opened up a little too soon or after people get complacent. But given modern treatments and knowledge about infectious disease, I see no reason why the world isn't mostly back to normal within a year. Yes, there will be some cultural changes and a bunch of small business will not survive. Hopefully governments will plan better in the future with emergency medical supply stock piles.

I expect things to start opening back up in May or June with some limited access and continued extra precautions for the time being. Large events will probably be cancelled through most of the summer. Things will have to open up soon or we risk permanent collapse of large economies. As much as I value life over money, collapse of major economies will cost many lives as well, so there's a balancing act. I can;t see governments shutting things down for the whole summer. Just won't happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 10, 2020, 07:23:55 AM

Quote from: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:57:22 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:40:43 AM

Quote from: qed on April 10, 2020, 06:38:17 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 06:36:36 AM

It seems you're quite into this, so I'll back off.

My only point was that if a sudden cure was discovered it wouldn't be so quietly reported, if nothing else a bunch of loud idiots in politics would be touting it in hopes of inspiring the economy to go up a bit. But sure, maybe they suddenly discovered the cure and most news networks simply don't care yet. Not a big deal, have at it.

It just shows that Australia is not NWO :tup

Not even sure what that means. But Australia has Blob and Kangaroos, my favorite animals. So Australia always gets a thumbs up from me.

NWO = New World Order, or 'New World' order.

Oh boy, a conspiracy theory :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 10, 2020, 07:24:47 AM

I know what NWO is, I grew up on WCW.

I just have no idea what that means in relation to anything that was being discussed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 10, 2020, 07:44:02 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 07:24:47 AM

I know what NWO is, I grew up on WCW.

I thought NWO would get brought up eventually, I just didn't want to be the one who did it. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 10, 2020, 08:26:18 AM

Got my second machine up and running yesterday and can now make 5-10 masks a day depending on size. Thanks to everyone that contributed supplies and everyone else that offered to  :metal

(https://i.imgur.com/4q2qnb9.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 10, 2020, 08:39:42 AM

That is so cool!

Chino is so cool!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 10, 2020, 08:42:44 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 10, 2020, 07:24:47 AM

I know what NWO is, I grew up on WCW.

4 L

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 10, 2020, 08:51:35 AM

Is that a signed picture of Neil D. Tyson? He looks so young!

Good stuff Chino!  :tup :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 10, 2020, 10:27:34 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 10, 2020, 08:51:35 AM

Is that a signed picture of Neil D. Tyson? He looks so young!

Good stuff Chino!  :tup :hefdaddy

It is. Someone got me that as a gift 6 or 7 years ago. They wrote to his office at the Hayden Planetarium and he sent that back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 10, 2020, 11:59:57 AM

What the fuck is wrong with people?  :(

My wife is a customer service agent for a catalog order company, which means that everyone she deals with already has a problem of some kind, but this is fucking ridiculous.  She was doing some emails this morning, and some lady was so pissed about her $9.99 plastic whatever that she fired off an angry email to them saying she hopes they all get Coronavirus and die.

Lady, I know you're upset, but seriously?  That's literally psycho behavior, wishing death upon someone just because you didn't get your $9.99 plastic whatever.  Fuck you, bitch!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 10, 2020, 12:12:37 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 10, 2020, 11:59:57 AM

What the fuck is wrong with people?  :(

My wife is a customer service agent for a catalog order company, which means that everyone she deals with already has a problem of some kind, but this is fucking ridiculous.  She was doing some emails this morning, and some lady was so pissed about her $9.99 plastic whatever that she fired off an angry email to them saying she hopes they all get Coronavirus and die.

Lady, I know you're upset, but seriously?  That's literally psycho behavior, wishing death upon someone just because you didn't get your $9.99 plastic whatever.  Fuck you, bitch!

Possible for her to be fired as a customer (deleting account/profile, or some other way of blocking her from ordering again)?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 10, 2020, 12:24:14 PM

Unfortunately, no.  My wife was a little shaken by this (we both work from home, right next to each other), and she had the option to pass this one up the chain and let a supervisor deal with it, but she knows that a supervisor will just kiss the customer's ass, apologize, and later give my wife shit for not just handling it.  So my wife just apologized and told the customer that she would deal with it.  She didn't respond to the Coronavirus thing at all.

Upon investigation, it seems that this issue had already come up, this is the second email from the same customer, and my wife had escalated it to the supervisors over a week ago.  They don't appear to have done anything about it, so she "notified" the supervisors that this customer was very upset and cc'd the email to them, as well as her original email asking them to deal with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 10, 2020, 01:02:23 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 10, 2020, 12:24:14 PM

Unfortunately, no.  My wife was a little shaken by this (we both work from home, right next to each other), and she had the option to pass this one up the chain and let a supervisor deal with it, but she knows that a supervisor will just kiss the customer's ass, apologize, and later give my wife shit for not just handling it.  So my wife just apologized and told the customer that she would deal with it.  She didn't respond to the Coronavirus thing at all.

Upon investigation, it seems that this issue had already come up, this is the second email from the same customer, and my wife had escalated it to the supervisors over a week ago.  They don't appear to have done anything about it, so she "notified" the supervisors that this customer was very upset and cc'd the email to them, as well as her original email asking them to deal with it.

Orbert, that is first rate horrible.  A good example of our society's entitlement, and how to be a bad person.  I hope your wife gets a ton of good customers over the next several days to help make up for such a bad one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:11:37 PM

Well, just got off a video call with my family... grandma tested positive.  She's in a nursing home in NJ which is like a hotbed for this.  She has a fever and since 2 others in the home were positive, they tested everyone. She's not doing too bad they say, but given her age, it's unlikely she'll survive.  We will see.  There likely won't be any funeral either if she does pass, maybe do a video conference thing with the family. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 10, 2020, 01:14:01 PM

Cramx3, that is hearbreaking. :-[

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 10, 2020, 01:16:41 PM

 :-[

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 10, 2020, 01:18:44 PM

Thinking of you, Marc. I'm hoping for the best. That's terrible news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:20:52 PM

Thanks fellas

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 10, 2020, 01:21:22 PM

Sorry to hear that

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 10, 2020, 01:22:02 PM

You and your family are in my thoughts

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 10, 2020, 01:25:34 PM

Damn, that sucks. :(

Hope for the best, but (unfortunately, all things considered), prepare for the worst.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 10, 2020, 01:34:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:11:37 PM

Well, just got off a video call with my family... grandma tested positive.  She's in a nursing home in NJ which is like a hotbed for this.  She has a fever and since 2 others in the home were positive, they tested everyone. She's not doing too bad they say, but given her age, it's unlikely she'll survive.  We will see.  There likely won't be any funeral either if she does pass, maybe do a video conference thing with the family. :(

So sorry : ( every now and then you see news about very elderly people (some even over 100) pulling through, let's hope it's her case as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:45:28 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 10, 2020, 01:34:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:11:37 PM

Well, just got off a video call with my family... grandma tested positive.  She's in a nursing home in NJ which is like a hotbed for this.  She has a fever and since 2 others in the home were positive, they tested everyone. She's not doing too bad they say, but given her age, it's unlikely she'll survive.  We will see.  There likely won't be any funeral either if she does pass, maybe do a video conference thing with the family. :(

So sorry : ( every now and then you see news about very elderly people (some even over 100) pulling through, let's hope it's her case as well.

Yup, my boss shared some stories of elders pulling through just now.  Remaining hopeful is the only thing we can really do in these times.  Thanks again everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 10, 2020, 02:05:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:11:37 PM

Well, just got off a video call with my family... grandma tested positive.  She's in a nursing home in NJ which is like a hotbed for this.  She has a fever and since 2 others in the home were positive, they tested everyone. She's not doing too bad they say, but given her age, it's unlikely she'll survive.  We will see.  There likely won't be any funeral either if she does pass, maybe do a video conference thing with the family. :(

Sorry to hear that, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 10, 2020, 02:25:25 PM

Fuck dude....I'm so sorry. I dearly hope she pulls through man. :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 10, 2020, 02:32:56 PM

Sending you and your grandma virtual vibes for the best possible outcome. 

A good friend of mine just put her 98 year old aunt into a rehab facility (post op surgery complications needing skilled care) and is absolutely dying inside that she won't be allowed to visit.  It's such a helpless feeling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 10, 2020, 02:37:27 PM

I've been reading stories about people pulling elderly family members out of care facilities, even if they have tested positive, so they can be with them and not shut out from visiting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 10, 2020, 02:52:52 PM

Cram, sorry to hear that. All my best thoughts to you and granma.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 10, 2020, 02:54:00 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 10, 2020, 02:37:27 PM

I've been reading stories about people pulling elderly family members out of care facilities, even if they have tested positive, so they can be with them and not shut out from visiting.

Yes.  This same friend's husband took his father out of a rehab about a month ago when the shit started hitting the fan.  It was a good choice, he's doing well at home.  Unfortunately the aunt has complications from a recent surgery causing medical problems severe enough that my friend had no choice.  My friend attempted to provide the 24 hour care, but she's not medically trained and her aunt's condition became severe for infections, etc.  It is a no-win situation.  :'(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 10, 2020, 02:58:54 PM

So sorry to hear that Cram. Hoping for the best, my brother.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 10, 2020, 04:15:34 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:45:28 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 10, 2020, 01:34:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 10, 2020, 01:11:37 PM

Well, just got off a video call with my family... grandma tested positive.  She's in a nursing home in NJ which is like a hotbed for this.  She has a fever and since 2 others in the home were positive, they tested everyone. She's not doing too bad they say, but given her age, it's unlikely she'll survive.  We will see.  There likely won't be any funeral either if she does pass, maybe do a video conference thing with the family. :(

So sorry : ( every now and then you see news about very elderly people (some even over 100) pulling through, let's hope it's her case as well.

Yup, my boss shared some stories of elders pulling through just now.

And there are LOTS of those kinds of stories.  Keep positive and keep that in mind.  I mean, this is not Ebola.  It isn't guaranteed to kill elderly or immuno-compromised who are infected.  They just have a higher likelihood than a younger, healthier person, that's all.  She may end up coming out just fine.  Stay hopeful, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 10, 2020, 05:43:26 PM

My cousin (I'm very close to him, he's been like a brother to me all my life) just posted this:

Quote

My wife, a hospital critical care RN, was exposed to a patient who tested positive after she treated him and as a result was considered by the hospital to have been exposed, and was told to continue to come to work unless she became symptomatic. She and the other personnel exposed to this patient were not ordered to be tested. My wife had to go schedule her own test through the county set up for first responders. She was the only one in this group who actually received a test (negative, thank God). My point is this: the daily statistics show CONFIRMED positive cases and CONFIRMED deaths. If someone thinks they may have it, even if they show all the symptoms, but never got tested l, or someone dies from the symptoms but never officially got tested during an autopsy or otherwise, they don’t count towards those statistics. If medical personnel, who deal with sick and compromised patients and exposure on a daily basis can’t get tested when it was confirmed that they were exposed to a positive patient, how likely to you think a non-medical member of the general public would have access to a test, even if they are symptomatic? I’m guessing there are far more cases than what the statistics show. But if they aren’t testing anyone the statistics show everything’s great.

This is why I *DO NOT* trust the low number statistics coming from Washington State.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 10, 2020, 08:12:11 PM

Positive vibes your way Cram.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 10, 2020, 08:32:25 PM

Quote from: T-ski on April 10, 2020, 08:12:11 PM

Positive vibes your way Cram.

+1  Hoping for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 11, 2020, 09:14:45 AM

Quote from: jammindude on April 10, 2020, 05:43:26 PM

...This is why I *DO NOT* trust the low number statistics coming from Washington State.

Yes, that is exactly right.  And I think a lot of us have been saying similar things for quite awhile.  But that being said, that is ALWAYS the problem inherent in gathering data:  data collection is a flawed, inconsistent process with lots of variables and holes.  It is imperfect and incomplete.  It just is.  But that doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile endeavor or is useless.  I think a lot of the data we have is helpful.  We just need to, as I think your post underscored, be aware that the data is incomplete, and to not be skeptical of the temptation to be either overly optimistic or overly pessimistic about what the data shows at any given point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 11, 2020, 05:25:40 PM

Another update on our guitarist David, and his wife Nancy.  This is from an email from David's brother Andy, sent to our band leader John earlier today and forwarded to us in the band.  Minor edits, but still much easier than rewriting or paraphrasing everything.

-----------

Not a lot of news for Nancy.  She is slightly less sedated and they have lowered her oxygenation rate some.  However, it is now Day 16 or 17 on the ventilator which is cause for concern from my perspective.  This will be a crucial few days to see if she can get off the ventilator and breathe on her own.

As to David, he is most likely going to get a tracheasitomy and feeding tube with a view of moving him to a long-term acute care facility.  That would be likely around the end of next week; we are looking at <place> as the place for him to go to recover from the stroke.  His Covid is mostly if not entirely gone; his blood clots are mostly resolved, so it is the damage that the stroke did that is the issue.  He has awareness and can follow simple commands; his left side is weak (stroke was on right side of brain); he can’t talk because he has the tubes in; he is very weak.  But part of the issue is how much is stroke and how much is being on the ventilator and under sedation.  Extensive time on the ventilator/sedation even with no stroke makes patients weak, damages their lungs, disorients them, and causes other physical and mental deficits that takes weeks up to months to recover from.  So, David has a long road ahead of him and it will be some time (months) before we know what he will be able to regain physically and mentally.  For David, that rehabilitation phase will be critical obviously and he will need much support and advocacy.  We are of course planning on <daughters> playing a large role in the beginning and Nancy hopefully taking over after she recovers.  Unfortunately, this may interfere with their school plans but we have to pull together on this.

My sister is arriving this morning in Chicago as we try to wade through the practical side of things—rent, banks, insurance, etc.  Thanks for your offers of help.  Once we start getting things sorted out we may need to draw on your experience.

Andy

----------

This is the first I've heard about a sister, but it's good news.  John was under the impression that there was only the brother in NY, but Andy has obviously been in contact and doing what he can remotely.  I'm glad the girls will have someone else around to help.

The concern about Nancy echoes what others have said here, that there can be both long-term and short-term effects of being under sedation for such a long period.  It can't be helped right now; they're doing what they have to do to keep her alive.  We just wait and hope that her body can eventually fight off the virus and recover.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 11, 2020, 06:13:45 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 11, 2020, 09:14:45 AM

Quote from: jammindude on April 10, 2020, 05:43:26 PM

...This is why I *DO NOT* trust the low number statistics coming from Washington State.

Yes, that is exactly right.  And I think a lot of us have been saying similar things for quite awhile.  But that being said, that is ALWAYS the problem inherent in gathering data:  data collection is a flawed, inconsistent process with lots of variables and holes.  It is imperfect and incomplete.  It just is.  But that doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile endeavor or is useless.  I think a lot of the data we have is helpful.  We just need to, as I think your post underscored, be aware that the data is incomplete, and to not be skeptical of the temptation to be either overly optimistic or overly pessimistic about what the data shows at any given point.

Yeah, the statistics are off in several ways. They're way undercounting cases of Covid-19 since many people are not being tested if they have mild symptoms and something like half of people have no symptoms at all. I'd be surprised if more than 1/4 of actual cases are being counted. This also means that some people are dying from Covid-19 and not being counted. But I've also heard that anyone who has Covid-19 and dies, is considered to have died from Covid-19, which is not always the case (If I got the flu and died of a preexisting heart condition, I doubt I would be marked down as a flu death). I've also heard that at least some of the testing is only testing for corona viruses and not specifically Covid-19, and corona viruses are pretty common, so that may be contributing to overcounting both cases and deaths. I don't think we'll ever really get clear statistics on what's going on. Take all numbers with a grain of salt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on April 12, 2020, 09:55:36 AM

I'm sorry but I just have to complain... I understand that some people don't think the virus is real. I also might be overreacting to it. However, there are still some undeniable truths: [1] Many people are scared to death of it, including subject-matter experts, [2] there is a stay-at-home order in North Carolina, and [3] that stay-at-home order is pretty tame (don't have large social gatherings and don't visit people unless you really need to, but frankly you can still basically do what you want, including playing golf).

In spite of all this, half the households in my neighborhoods have decided to be defiant and give a stern middle finger to the ruling. Across the street, you have Mr. State Trooper who currently has a half-dozen people over for Easter lunch. Down the street, you have a half-dozen kids selling lemonade. And then of course you have the good ol' boys at the front of the neighborhood who have a party every weekend with so many people that the streets are actually lined with cars.

This all just blows my mind. The LAW right now is that people socially distance, which sucks but is not that huge a deal considering there is a global pandemic, and people are not only refusing to do so but making a point to the opposite. I just really hope that I am wrong about how serious the virus is, or there are enough people actually following the rules to make an actual difference, otherwise we're f'd.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 12, 2020, 10:46:21 AM

Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 12, 2020, 09:55:36 AM

I understand that some people don't think the virus is real.

I don't understand this at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 12, 2020, 11:04:40 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 12, 2020, 10:46:21 AM

Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 12, 2020, 09:55:36 AM

I understand that some people don't think the virus is real.

I don't understand this at all.

There are anti vaxxers, flat earthers, believers in the fact that the major world leaders are alien with reptilian forms but people not understanding this virus is too far fetched for you?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 12, 2020, 11:25:10 AM

Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 12, 2020, 09:55:36 AM

In spite of all this, half the households in my neighborhoods have decided to be defiant and give a stern middle finger to the ruling. Across the street, you have Mr. State Trooper who currently has a half-dozen people over for Easter lunch.

Cherry-picking this example, I don't know if having 6 people getting together for lunch is "giving the finger." I don't know what is in their minds, maybe it is out of spite. But I wouldn't chastise 6 people if they assessed their individual and collective situations, and if they decided it was reasonable, got together for lunch. I believe the virus exists, and accept that my employer is temporarily shut down and schools are closed, but I also think it reasonable for my kids to play with the neighbor kids, and I chat with their dad when they play, as we both understand each family is minimizing their exposure to others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 12, 2020, 11:35:35 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 12, 2020, 11:04:40 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 12, 2020, 10:46:21 AM

Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 12, 2020, 09:55:36 AM

I understand that some people don't think the virus is real.

I don't understand this at all.

There are anti vaxxers, flat earthers, believers in the fact that the major world leaders are alien with reptilian forms but people not understanding this virus is too far fetched for you?

No, I just think all of that is silly and stupid. Like people burning down cell phone broadcasting towers because they believe 5G networks help spread the virus. What in the actual fuck?

Conspiracy theory and downright stupidity just isn’t really my thing and I have a hard time acknowledging this sort of thing as a ‘valid opinion’, so that’s why I said what I said. I do not understand that there are people who believe the virus is fake.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 12, 2020, 11:39:38 AM

I think anyone that thinks it's fake would be extremely fringe.

Now people that don't think it'll happen to them, would be far greater.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 12, 2020, 12:47:14 PM

I think it's as real as the flu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on April 12, 2020, 01:20:58 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 12, 2020, 11:25:10 AM

Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 12, 2020, 09:55:36 AM

In spite of all this, half the households in my neighborhoods have decided to be defiant and give a stern middle finger to the ruling. Across the street, you have Mr. State Trooper who currently has a half-dozen people over for Easter lunch.

Cherry-picking this example, I don't know if having 6 people getting together for lunch is "giving the finger." I don't know what is in their minds, maybe it is out of spite. But I wouldn't chastise 6 people if they assessed their individual and collective situations, and if they decided it was reasonable, got together for lunch. I believe the virus exists, and accept that my employer is temporarily shut down and schools are closed, but I also think it reasonable for my kids to play with the neighbor kids, and I chat with their dad when they play, as we both understand each family is minimizing their exposure to others.

I think you could very well be right. We've just gotten so many warnings about the stay-at-home order from the HOA, the mail, the news, etc. that violating it at this point smells fishy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 12, 2020, 01:26:58 PM

I don't think there are too many people that flat out think the whole thing is a lie. There are definitely plenty of people who think the risks are being way overblown by the fear mongering media.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 12, 2020, 01:28:09 PM

Your HOA? I am the president of my HOA (it's small, only 34 separate homes) and I can't imagine sending out anything to our homeowners about our state's "stay home" order. Even if I saw a bunch of people gathering. We have been walking the neighborhood lately since the weather has gotten nicer and I've seen more people doing the same. Everyone is very friendly and says hello while keeping a few feet apart.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on April 12, 2020, 10:27:26 PM

Things are getting a lil dicey in my industry, Oil Refining.  Lack of demand and a glut of supply are causing us to reduce rates considerably and may lead us to shut down the whole refinery.  Of course with our industry there is a huge domino effect with regards to industry support and employment, contract companies and so forth. Initially we, like most refineries tried to maximize diesel fuel, and now there is an over supply of it..  The markets for jet fuel and gasoline have dried up dramatically.   Here's an interesting article.  The pic is actually of my refinery, the largest in California.

https://www.rigzone.com/oil/news/wire/some_us_oil_refineries_may_be_about_to_shut-09-apr-2020-161706-article/?utm_source=GLOBAL_ENG&fbclid=IwAR2MoUif8IseQFNUCU4QJWu0HrYe_m4AeaA1MK9K3xI5gEfltXQhzdqA5TY

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 13, 2020, 06:38:43 AM

In side news, remember the Krakatoa? you might have heard it at some point as an historical trivia, the famous 1883 eruption that was one of the most violent in recorded history and that basically cancelled summer all over the planet for a year (and possibly paining the sky in the weird way that you see in Munch's "The Scream")... well, it's not that it was always dormant ever since, a couple of years ago it caused a tsunami for example, but it started to erupt AGAIN these last few days.

After australian fires, the virus and the locusts in Africa, file this under the "At this point I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see Godzilla" category.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 13, 2020, 07:04:02 AM

Krakatoa is wild, man. It shot stuff like 15+ miles into space at a speed of something like a half mile per second. The sound wave it generated went around the Earth 4 times! I've read about guys on boats 50 miles from the explosion who still went deaf because of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 13, 2020, 07:15:33 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 13, 2020, 06:38:43 AM

In side news, remember the Krakatoa? you might have heard it at some point as an historical trivia, the famous 1883 eruption that was one of the most violent in recorded history and that basically cancelled summer all over the planet for a year (and possibly paining the sky in the weird way that you see in Munch's "The Scream")... well, it's not that it was always dormant ever since, a couple of years ago it caused a tsunami for example, but it started to erupt AGAIN these last few days.

After australian fires, the virus and the locusts in Africa, file this under the "At this point I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see Godzilla" category.

Indonesia is struggling. Mount Merapi last month and now Krakatoa.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 13, 2020, 07:21:04 AM

Add tornadoes to the growing list of global calamities.

Things are getting slightly better here at my hospita.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 13, 2020, 08:00:41 AM

Just wanted to give a little update/thanks (I really hope these don't come off like I'm fishing for praise) on the mask making effort.

I've given out 12 masks (the white ones I posted earlier) to nurses and RNs that I know personally who needed them at work. The contents of the image below are all going to be my part of my first bulk donation to the hospital down the street. The ones that are bagged are 100% complete and ready to donate, the others still need to be rubber coated, filtered, and strapped. After nearly two weeks of non-stop running (and two years and 2000+ hours of running leading up to that) my primary printer shit the bed late Friday night. I had to do some surgery to the main control box and a few hot fixes to keep the thing running. The machine is going again, but I missed out on the production of 3 or 4 masks while it was down.

(https://i.imgur.com/9vjYUTO.jpg)

Thanks again to all who contributed and reached out about contributing. We're a good bunch  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 13, 2020, 08:19:12 AM

........BANE?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 13, 2020, 08:49:26 AM

Outstanding effort mate !

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 13, 2020, 09:07:35 AM

I got to the "Amazon list" late, but in any event, really proud to know you, Chino.  That's a hell of a thing you did, and even if you were fishing for praise (I don't at all think you were, by the way) you'd deserve it!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 13, 2020, 09:27:21 AM

One positive in this Distribution Center for Convid 19. Other side of the building but it's got this building talking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 13, 2020, 09:33:14 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 13, 2020, 09:27:21 AM

One positive in this Distribution Center for Convid 19. Other side of the building but it's got this building talking.

Welp.   :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 13, 2020, 09:36:02 AM

They have 6 question and they take everyone's temperature before being allowed into the DC  If you have a temp of 100 degrees you have to go to your doctor.

Not perfect but it is a way to stop people from working sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 13, 2020, 09:37:10 AM

Hoping you stay safe and healthy, Joe. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 13, 2020, 09:46:02 AM

We have checklists for every employee to clean and washing/hand sanitizer their hands multiple times.  I've bought bottled water so you one uses the bubbler.  We wipe down all the door handles, forklifts every shift. We are doing everything to keep the employees safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 13, 2020, 09:55:47 AM

I was mocked here last week when I mentioned we had been soaping off our shoes for weeks before entering our house (those 'droplets' react to gravity, after all).

Well.....     https://www.thedailybeast.com/centers-for-disease-control-and-prevention-study-shows-coronavirus-can-live-on-floors-shoes

Meanwhile, Tony Spell holds mass for the busloads of science nonbelievers again, in a state with the top five rate of cases and deaths per capita.  Maybe 'they' are magically shielded, but I guess they don't care about transmitting anything to their neighborhoods upon returning home.  :facepalm:

(and, once again, 'well done, Chino!')

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nekov on April 13, 2020, 12:05:48 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 13, 2020, 06:38:43 AM

In side news, remember the Krakatoa? you might have heard it at some point as an historical trivia, the famous 1883 eruption that was one of the most violent in recorded history and that basically cancelled summer all over the planet for a year (and possibly paining the sky in the weird way that you see in Munch's "The Scream")... well, it's not that it was always dormant ever since, a couple of years ago it caused a tsunami for example, but it started to erupt AGAIN these last few days.

After australian fires, the virus and the locusts in Africa, file this under the "At this point I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see Godzilla" category.

It's not just the Krakatoa. The pic below shows all the volcanoes that were erupting yesterday.

(https://img.volcanodiscovery.com/uploads/pics/active-volcano-map2-2020-04-12.jpg)

And if that wasn't enough, we also have wildfires in Chernobyl spreading radiation

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/world/europe/chernobyl-wildfire.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/world/europe/chernobyl-wildfire.html)

Nature is giving us the biggest FU I've ever seen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on April 13, 2020, 12:10:53 PM

^^ Well, all of this goes back to what I've read from a few posts here a few times in the past.  We have spent decades abusing this planet and suck every ounce of resources it has and now the planet is fighting back in ways we did not anticipate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 13, 2020, 12:16:43 PM

The brave Krakatoans!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNzAOKpo3CI

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 13, 2020, 12:41:22 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on April 13, 2020, 09:55:47 AM

I was mocked here last week when I mentioned we had been soaping off our shoes for weeks before entering our house (those 'droplets' react to gravity, after all).

Well.....     https://www.thedailybeast.com/centers-for-disease-control-and-prevention-study-shows-coronavirus-can-live-on-floors-shoes

Meanwhile, Tony Spell holds mass for the busloads of science nonbelievers again, in a state with the top five rate of cases and deaths per capita.  Maybe 'they' are magically shielded, but I guess they don't care about transmitting anything to their neighborhoods upon returning home.  :facepalm:

(and, once again, 'well done, Chino!')

The CDC study was conducted in a hospital, not your neighborhood grocery store or sidewalk.  Samples from the floor were noted as "weak positive" results. 

That article that you linked just cherry picked the "OMG IT LIVES ON SHOES," without mentioning the rest of the information. 

Quote

Therefore, the soles of medical staff shoes might function as carriers. The 3 weak positive results from the floor of dressing room 4 might also arise from these carriers. We highly recommend that persons disinfect shoe soles before walking out of wards containing COVID-19 patients.

I've never disinfected my shoes after returning home from being out and about, and don't see a point in doing it now.  If I walked through a hospital right now, sure.  I firmly believe the most prevalent form of transmission is by being close to people, so if you wear a mask if you go somewhere where you would be around other people, use sanitizer, and then wash your hands at home, you're eliminating the majority of the risk.


** My response isn't completely directed AT you.  I'm just tired of seeing store shelves depleted of cleaning supplies and even things like baby wipes or paper towels (for the DIY recipes to make your own disinfectant wipes) because of the panic surrounding "studies" that show that the virus can be detected on things.  All germs can be detected on things after they are transmitted.  This is not unique.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 13, 2020, 01:54:03 PM

I just used one of the many outlets that were reporting it.  I'm just trying to be as safe as I can.  I'm no expert, but shoes seemed to be one of those overlooked items until recently.  We just don't know.  My wife and I are in a semi high risk category, so we're trying to take every precaution we can think of. 

And....'no harm, no foul' now taken. ;)

Earlier today, Smithfield announced they were shutting down in South Dakota:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/13/south-dakota-pork-plant-closes-after-200-workers-contract-covid-19

Pages ago in this thread, there were comments about 'doomsday bacon' amongst other 'doomday' items.  I got a needed chuckle from it then, but whoda thunk that it would/could become a reality? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2020, 02:03:02 PM

A lot of things I have read have said that while the virus can live on many surfaces for varying amounts of time, it's often not going to infect you from contacting such a stained surface as the virus isn't likely to be active and infectious while living on such surfaces.  Not that you can be safe, but many extreme measures aren't necessary.   It still comes back to just washing your hands and not touching your face as being the best way to prevent your own infection and spread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 13, 2020, 02:19:35 PM

Quote

** My response isn't completely directed AT you.  I'm just tired of seeing store shelves depleted of cleaning supplies and even things like baby wipes or paper towels (for the DIY recipes to make your own disinfectant wipes) because of the panic surrounding "studies" that show that the virus can be detected on things.  All germs can be detected on things after they are transmitted.  This is not unique.

Preach it brutha!!

I've been saying from day 1 that the exact wrong thing to do is panic buy. I mean, I understand that protecting your family is job number 1 but part of protecting your family is protecting others and all panic buying does is strain the system which puts others and us in distress.

BTW - we're doing the same thing, we pickup groceries (aisles online) and only get what we need and are not too worried about transmission. Just be smart, wash hands and stay home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 13, 2020, 05:15:03 PM

So my boss came out on MSNBC today talking briefly about what we are doing.

https://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/watch/pandemic-heaps-pressure-on-food-banks-81968709901

She’s the one on the right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 13, 2020, 05:16:33 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2020, 02:03:02 PM

A lot of things I have read have said that while the virus can live on many surfaces for varying amounts of time, it's often not going to infect you from contacting such a stained surface as the virus isn't likely to be active and infectious while living on such surfaces.  Not that you can be safe, but many extreme measures aren't necessary.   It still comes back to just washing your hands and not touching your face as being the best way to prevent your own infection and spread.

Had to go to Target on a rainy day this morning to get a couple of prescriptions for my wife.  Once back home in the garage, I put my shoes in a shallow pan of water and Dawn, and then used a Lysol wipe.  And then cleaned my hands again.  And then our door handles before entering.  And then I switch shoes after that. Yeah, I guess it is semi-paranoiac, but I feel relaxed afterwards.  The main level of our home has four rooms of parquet, the kitchen and two baths have tile.  My wife walks around in bare feet 90% of the time, and our dog 100% ;)   I'm not worried about him, just him tracking it around.   Damn, maybe I am paranoid!

Quote from: Vmadera00 on April 13, 2020, 05:15:03 PM

So my boss came out on MSNBC today talking briefly about what we are doing.

https://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/watch/pandemic-heaps-pressure-on-food-banks-81968709901

She’s the one on the right.

I was part of two groups doing this on a weekly basis in Baltimore County and Baltimore City.  Due to high risk, I've had to discontinue assisting in what they are still managing to do at this time.  Keep up the good fight!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on April 13, 2020, 06:49:33 PM

Herrick has not been keeping up with this thread so I don't know if any of you caught The Plague and posted about your experience. I'll try to keep mine brief.

On Sunday March 29, The Wife texted me at work telling me two villagers caught The Plague. I told management and they told me to go home immediately and stay there for two weeks.

On Saturday April 4, I started feeling sick. Just a very slight cough. The leetlest cough I've ever had actually. This lasted until Sunday April 5 (when I made an appointment to get tested) and went away Monday morning April 6. By Monday evening, I lost like 95% of taste and smell. That night I had really bad lower back pain. I have sciatica but this was far worse than the normal pain I have. Twas like a big ball of fire in the center of my lower back and it felt like the nerves in my legs were on fire while being pulled down through my legs.

On Tuesday April 7, I went to the place to get a sample taken for testing. The back pain persisted throughout that week and I slept about 4 hours a night. 800mg of Ibuprofen & 600mg of Acetaminophen barely put a dent in the pain. I tested positive for The Plague on Saturday April 11.

Around Sunday evening April 12, the back pain went away completely. Today I feel pretty much 100% humang again. I still cannot taste of smell much but it's getting better. It's an odd feeling to know I have bad breath in the morning but not being able to taste it  ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 13, 2020, 06:52:40 PM

Herrick, glad you are getting better, scary stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 13, 2020, 06:58:41 PM

Wow Herrick, scary shit. Glad you're feeling better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 08:36:07 PM

Wow.  Most accounts I've read from survivors say that you seem to get past it, then a few days later it comes back with a vengeance.  I'm sure you knew that already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on April 13, 2020, 08:46:24 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 08:36:07 PM

Wow.  Most accounts I've read from survivors say that you seem to get past it, then a few days later it comes back with a vengeance.  I'm sure you knew that already.

I've heard about those but I haven't heard of any accounts where people feel 100% normal then go downhill. Even though my job said I can go back after 72 hours with no symptoms, I'm going to give stay home another week just to be sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 13, 2020, 08:48:24 PM

Fingers crossed for ya. 🤞🏻

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on April 13, 2020, 08:58:56 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 13, 2020, 08:48:24 PM

Fingers crossed for ya. 🤞🏻

Thanks. At this point I'm more worried about being contagious than getting sick again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 09:24:38 PM

You may be among the fortunate ones who it's just not going to affect as much as some.  That's great.  I hope you continue feeling good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 09:26:22 PM

At my workplace we've been having our team meetings and one-on-ones remotely of course (audio only), but my manager decided that today's team meeting would include video. She said that she misses the face time with all of us.

Okay, I wasn't surprised that everyone's houses are nicer than mine. Our house looks "lived in", whereas most homes around here could be movie sets. But all the other guys were clean shaven and actually presentable. What's up with that? I'm pretty sure the ones that weren't bald even brushed their hair. I thought it was a given that we'd all look like hell, so I literally stepped out of the shower, put on a T-shirt and sweats, and joined the meeting. Do these people not understand? We're in a lockdown, folks!

Next time I'll probably brush my hair, but that's about it. Seriously. That's the whole point of working from home, isn't it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 13, 2020, 09:57:05 PM

Orbert delivers, once again!

Being off work, I have been shaving on my normal schedule (every 3-4 days) because I hate being scruffy. But otherwise I have just been waking up and throwing on whatever clothes I had out from the night before (fresh skivvies, of course). I haven't even been putting in my contact lenses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 10:18:47 PM

My T-shirt and sweatpants are also my pajamas, so most days I literally do not change clothes at all.  I get up in the morning eat breakfast, then wander down to the office to work.  After work, yay, I'm already home, so I don't need to change into my comfy clothes.  And we're not going out or anything, so I'm good.  Daily routine is out the window these days.  I've seen other guys growing their beards out and stuff, so I just assumed that I'm in the majority by having not shaved for over a month.

I look pretty scary on a good day, so I'm sure I looked like absolute shit this morning.  Oh well.  Working from home, I'm not gonna get all clean and shiny just because of a web conference.  My boss wanted to see us, she saw us.  A bunch of clean-shaven nerdy guys... and me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:26:48 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 10:18:47 PM

My T-shirt and sweatpants are also my pajamas, so most days I literally do not change clothes at all.  I get up in the morning eat breakfast, then wander down to the office to work.  After work, yay, I'm already home, so I don't need to change into my comfy clothes.  And we're not going out or anything, so I'm good.  Daily routine is out the window these days.  I've seen other guys growing their beards out and stuff, so I just assumed that I'm in the majority by having not shaved for over a month.

I look pretty scary on a good day, so I'm sure I looked like absolute shit this morning.  Oh well.  Working from home, I'm not gonna get all clean and shiny just because of a web conference.  My boss wanted to see us, she saw us.  A bunch of clean-shaven nerdy guys... and me.

I still shower, shave and get dressed in normal clothes most days even though I'm only going in to work for a couple hours once or twice a week and all of our meetings have been audio only. It just feels better to me to act like normal. But I've also never been one to change into sweatpants or something more comfortable when I get home from work. I wear jeans and a decent shirt to work most days and stay in that for the rest of the day. And I feel gross if I don't shower or shave. Plus I don't want my wife to think I'm turning into a slob. I still try and look decent for her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on April 14, 2020, 06:35:11 AM

For the two weeks that I was home on self-isolation, it was mostly sweats or crappy jeans. I like to tool around the yard or in the garage, so generally an old pair of jeans and t-shirt on weekends or when I'm off. I did stop shaving at the beginning of the isolation, just to see what would happen. Have always had a goatee, but let the full thing fill in. I like it and my wife isn't complaining, so even though I've been back to work for two weeks, I still haven't shaved except to shape. It is snow-white though, if I let it go until December, I could definitely play Santa, and I have the bod for it too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 14, 2020, 06:36:23 AM

I've been growing my beard out for 4 years now, although I tried it down once a couple years ago because I fudged it up in a big way. No going back from a giant beard  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 14, 2020, 06:39:15 AM

I always had a beard in recent years, and I never cut it in at least 5 years. I have a goatee mixed with a line following the rest of the jaw and back up to the hair, so the cheeks and where my jugular is are free.

The saturday before the last one I cut it and I felt naked, and also 5 years younger  :lol but I'll never go clean shaven again, the beard suits me a lot better. It's nice, after the first days, to see it slowly grow back, I'm planning of leaving it grow for at least 2 full weeks before starting to trim it again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 14, 2020, 06:47:05 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 13, 2020, 02:19:35 PM

Quote

** My response isn't completely directed AT you.  I'm just tired of seeing store shelves depleted of cleaning supplies and even things like baby wipes or paper towels (for the DIY recipes to make your own disinfectant wipes) because of the panic surrounding "studies" that show that the virus can be detected on things.  All germs can be detected on things after they are transmitted.  This is not unique.

Preach it brutha!!

I've been saying from day 1 that the exact wrong thing to do is panic buy. I mean, I understand that protecting your family is job number 1 but part of protecting your family is protecting others and all panic buying does is strain the system which puts others and us in distress.

BTW - we're doing the same thing, we pickup groceries (aisles online) and only get what we need and are not too worried about transmission. Just be smart, wash hands and stay home.

The new thing is people making bread at home, with the assumption that if they make their own bread, they don't have to go to the store as often.  But they're still going to the store more often because they can't find flour and yeast to make the bread because it's all sold out.  :facepalm:

Just buy your regular groceries once a week, wear a mask and wash your hands. 


Glad you're feeling ok Herrick!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 14, 2020, 07:07:51 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

I'm not either.

A couple days ago my county reported zero new cases for the first time in weeks which is awesome; yesterday only one additional case was confirmed. And of the 80-something documented cases, only 37 are still active, with only 2 deaths in the whole county. Hooray! Not out of the woods yet but great news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 14, 2020, 07:13:57 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

It's actually pretty much required in NJ now if you want to go into a store of any sort...not to protect oneself, but to minimize potential of transmission to others (by catching/absorbing a significant portion of the aerosols from coughing/sneezing/breathing). I've been using a scarf the past few days, but my MIL is sending us a couple that she made, so we won;t have to be so ghetto about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 14, 2020, 07:20:16 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

It depends on where we go.  My dad gave us two N-95 masks, for my wife and I.  We wear them if one of us goes to the grocery store, as there are more people around us.  If we're just going to pick up food from a take-out place or going to the gas station, I won't wear it, since we aren't coming into contact with a lot of people at once.

The higher risk people in my family are wearing surgical or cloth masks whenever they are in public. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 14, 2020, 07:37:15 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 10:18:47 PM

My T-shirt and sweatpants are also my pajamas, so most days I literally do not change clothes at all.  I get up in the morning eat breakfast, then wander down to the office to work.  After work, yay, I'm already home, so I don't need to change into my comfy clothes.  And we're not going out or anything, so I'm good.  Daily routine is out the window these days.  I've seen other guys growing their beards out and stuff, so I just assumed that I'm in the majority by having not shaved for over a month.

I look pretty scary on a good day, so I'm sure I looked like absolute shit this morning.  Oh well.  Working from home, I'm not gonna get all clean and shiny just because of a web conference.  My boss wanted to see us, she saw us.  A bunch of clean-shaven nerdy guys... and me.

As much as I would rather be at the office than at home, I have to admit I am getting used to working from home to where I can wake up, throw on some pajama pants and a hoodie and get right to work.  :lol :lol   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: axeman90210 on April 14, 2020, 07:46:27 AM

Yeah, I was a complete mess the first week in terms of anything approaching a healthy daily schedule. Since then I've been good about getting up early, exercising, and showering and making my bed before work. But the one thing I can't get on board with is dressing up/making myself presentable like I'm going into the office. Pajamas and unruly hair all day every day.

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

I'm not. Luckily I don't really have any need to go into stores but I don't wear one when I go out for a walk. It's early enough in the day (7am-8:30am) that I don't really encounter anyone else out and about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 14, 2020, 07:51:12 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

I do. Unfortunately, I stopped walking to work so i've been taking the bus and it's usually crowded. Fortunately, someone donated 2,000 masks for us, with about 10 employees a day we have plenty of mask to last us a while.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on April 14, 2020, 08:52:27 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 12, 2020, 01:28:09 PM

Your HOA? I am the president of my HOA (it's small, only 34 separate homes) and I can't imagine sending out anything to our homeowners about our state's "stay home" order. Even if I saw a bunch of people gathering. We have been walking the neighborhood lately since the weather has gotten nicer and I've seen more people doing the same. Everyone is very friendly and says hello while keeping a few feet apart.

Yea, it was kind of indirect though. We got a letter saying something along the lines of "It has come to our attention that guests have been parking all over the street and that certain households have been loud past 10 PM, which violates HOA rules... Oh and FYI there is a stay-at-home order, in case you didn't know." I'm sure they're being flooded with complaints right now, and so they eventually caved and decided to send something out as soon as actual HOA rules started being violated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on April 14, 2020, 08:58:52 AM

Quote from: Herrick on April 13, 2020, 08:46:24 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 08:36:07 PM

Wow.  Most accounts I've read from survivors say that you seem to get past it, then a few days later it comes back with a vengeance.  I'm sure you knew that already.

I've heard about those but I haven't heard of any accounts where people feel 100% normal then go downhill. Even though my job said I can go back after 72 hours with no symptoms, I'm going to give stay home another week just to be sure.

Glad you're on the mend!! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 14, 2020, 09:26:10 AM

Feels like we're turning the corner. Mentally, spiritually, and in terms of
meaningful metrics.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 14, 2020, 09:28:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

Ft. Lauderdale is forcing all stores to have employees and customers wear masks. I made one from an old t-shirt sleeve. The kind that hooks on my ears was annoying.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 14, 2020, 09:35:02 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 14, 2020, 09:26:10 AM

Feels like we're turning the corner. Mentally, spiritually, and in terms of
meaningful metrics.

I really hope this is true.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: goo-goo on April 14, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

Texas just made it mandatory last night. My wife and I typically take a walk in the evenings and nobody is outside. I'm the one that goes grocery shopping on Saturday morning (I do the meal prep for the work week) and I also pickup lunch from the local restaurants in the area on Saturday and Sunday. We'll see how this goes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 14, 2020, 11:37:12 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I'm not. I'd say slightly less than half of people around me seem to be.

I stepped out to the world this afternoon to get some groceries.  It's mandatory in NJ and looked like everyone followed the rules.  My local shoprite didn't seem to be limiting people into the store though, so it was pretty packed inside even for a Tuesday noontime.  I thought maybe that would be a bit more quiet, I was wrong.  Either way, the store had pretty much everything besides TP that I think I just missed as others had it in their carts but it was gone by the time I got there. 

I also got some more booze since the liqoure store is next to it and they are taking totally different measures. You wait in your car and someone comes out and takes your order, grabs your credit card, and comes back to put it in your car with your receipt.  Not bad service at all other than a bit longer of a wait vs just going in and grabbing what you want, but its not like they charged me for getting curbside pick up so I cant complain.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2020, 03:59:42 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 14, 2020, 07:37:15 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 10:18:47 PM

My T-shirt and sweatpants are also my pajamas, so most days I literally do not change clothes at all.  I get up in the morning eat breakfast, then wander down to the office to work.  After work, yay, I'm already home, so I don't need to change into my comfy clothes.  And we're not going out or anything, so I'm good.  Daily routine is out the window these days.  I've seen other guys growing their beards out and stuff, so I just assumed that I'm in the majority by having not shaved for over a month.

I look pretty scary on a good day, so I'm sure I looked like absolute shit this morning.  Oh well.  Working from home, I'm not gonna get all clean and shiny just because of a web conference.  My boss wanted to see us, she saw us.  A bunch of clean-shaven nerdy guys... and me.

As much as I would rather be at the office than at home, I have to admit I am getting used to working from home to where I can wake up, throw on some pajama pants and a hoodie and get right to work.  :lol :lol

I live alone so I'm loving it.  The day I have to go back to the office will be depressing. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 14, 2020, 04:08:25 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2020, 03:59:42 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 14, 2020, 07:37:15 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2020, 10:18:47 PM

My T-shirt and sweatpants are also my pajamas, so most days I literally do not change clothes at all.  I get up in the morning eat breakfast, then wander down to the office to work.  After work, yay, I'm already home, so I don't need to change into my comfy clothes.  And we're not going out or anything, so I'm good.  Daily routine is out the window these days.  I've seen other guys growing their beards out and stuff, so I just assumed that I'm in the majority by having not shaved for over a month.

I look pretty scary on a good day, so I'm sure I looked like absolute shit this morning.  Oh well.  Working from home, I'm not gonna get all clean and shiny just because of a web conference.  My boss wanted to see us, she saw us.  A bunch of clean-shaven nerdy guys... and me.

As much as I would rather be at the office than at home, I have to admit I am getting used to working from home to where I can wake up, throw on some pajama pants and a hoodie and get right to work.  :lol :lol

I live alone so I'm loving it.  The day I have to go back to the office will be depressing. :(

It's tough, I do enjoy not having a commute.  That's about 2 extra hours a day to myself which means I sleep in every day now.  But I do miss getting out of the house and being productive.  Days drag a lot more when I am home.  It would be nice to be able to do a split of work from home and go to the office.  Once this all clears though, I expect to be in the office non stop catching up on all the work we were supposed to be doing now and then I will miss working from home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 14, 2020, 04:26:30 PM

I am selfishly loving this. I have never liked any of my jobs, though my current one comes closest to any sense of enjoyment. I like the guys I work with and being in the van half the day where I can listen to music. I love being at home with my family and, unlike my wife, rarely feel like I need to "get out." I am enjoying helping my 8 year old with her schoolwork, and playing Barbies and ponies with my 2 year old. I am not remotely looking forward to going back to work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 14, 2020, 04:30:59 PM

Having been a work at home guy for 10 years already, and employed by tight-wad company that didn’t allow for much in the first place for the last 2, and living in a small community for the last year  .... well, not a lot has changed for this Cochise.

It’s fascinating to read everyone else’s takes on this though

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 14, 2020, 05:39:03 PM

I'm only 10 minutes (3 miles) from work, so the loss of the commute for me is not that big a deal, but with not having to get up, shower and then make the drive to work, that is an extra half hour I can sleep every day now (if my body allows it).  I have to be at work at 8, so I'm normally up around 6:50, out the door by 7:30 and start work as soon as I get there around 7;40-7:45 (I hate being late for anything, so I am always early), but nowadays I can sleep till around 7:30 or so, crawl out of bed, brush my teeth and pee, and then get online and get to work.

One big difference is my mentality regarding "after hours" work.  Even though I am 8-5, I am salary, so if any shit hits the fans in the evening or on weekends (the ones I am not on call, which is most of them since I only have to do around 5 on call weekends a year), we are expected to take care of it (I would normally check my phone for emails a couple times in the evening just to make sure nothing came up that needed immediate attention, and work does pay a portion of our cell phone bill every month, so there's that), but after being at the office all day, it could be annoying to have to get back "on the clock" to work, but I do it and it's fine.  But with working at home, I have noticed it never bothers me anymore.  Maybe it's because I am stuck at home and what the hell else is there to do :lol, but it's definitely a different mentality. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 14, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I have to wear one at work now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 14, 2020, 06:03:54 PM

I've worn a mask 2 times, both when grocery shopping.  I don't wear one when I go on my walks but I'm vigilant about the 6 foot rule.

But the hard part for me is that I have a mild phobia about having my nose and mouth covered.  It makes me feel like I'm suffocating.  Cognitively, I know I'm not, but I'm having a very hard time controlling my anxiety when I'm wearing one.  It has been suggested to me that I take a Xanax before I go out, but I honestly don't think it would help and it might make it worse.  And I really shouldn't drive while on those types of meds.

Anyone have any helpful suggestions?  I'm stuck with grocery detail and I try to only go every 2 weeks but by then our list is long and it takes a long time.  I feel like I'm drowning the whole damn time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM

I'm not in love with wearing a mask. It takes a bit to get used to. Honestly, my suggestion is to not wait two weeks between shopping trips so you don't have to wear it for such a long period of time.

I've spent 8+ hours in a grocery store almost every day during all of this. I think the more you try and normalize your shopping, the less anxiety will build up, mask or no mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 14, 2020, 10:55:05 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 14, 2020, 06:03:54 PM

I've worn a mask 2 times, both when grocery shopping.  I don't wear one when I go on my walks but I'm vigilant about the 6 foot rule.

But the hard part for me is that I have a mild phobia about having my nose and mouth covered.  It makes me feel like I'm suffocating.  Cognitively, I know I'm not, but I'm having a very hard time controlling my anxiety when I'm wearing one.  It has been suggested to me that I take a Xanax before I go out, but I honestly don't think it would help and it might make it worse.  And I really shouldn't drive while on those types of meds.

Anyone have any helpful suggestions?  I'm stuck with grocery detail and I try to only go every 2 weeks but by then our list is long and it takes a long time.  I feel like I'm drowning the whole damn time.

What about grocery delivery or pickup instead?  I know it's hard to get, but if you get started now you might be able to switch over.  If that doesn't work, you could get as many nonperishables as you can online and then only go to the grocery store for the fresh stuff.   Then you'll be in the mask for a shorter time and still won't have to go to the store often.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 15, 2020, 01:15:16 AM

I don't know how much the enjoyment of the staying at home thing is gonna last, and if after a while I would start to miss the city life.

Right now I gave up alltogether: waking up an hour early, taking the subway, wearing shoes, shaving, caring about what I wear (it's a cop out since I'm at home, but technically I did work wearing an Iron Maiden shirt  ;D), and it's great. But I also renounced the compilations I was listening to go back and from work, reading in the subway (of course I can read at home but the gifted me with 3 months of Netflix and I'm making the most out of it), hanging out with coworkers and being in the city whenever I want... I live just outside Milan, in a nice but quite uneventful little-ish town, and it's nice to stop whenever I want in the centre of Milan, seeing the new modern squares and parks I like so much, or doing other stuff I might need to do, working at home and staying at home (contingency of the quarantine aside) in the long run would be boring, I need to do something more in my day.

But as of now, having one extra hour of sleep and one extra hour of chilling out is great. For sure the impact of the change of the season (daylight saving and additional tiredness brought by the allergies) has been lessened A LOT by staying at home,

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Silent Cody on April 15, 2020, 01:24:11 AM

I'm starting to miss city life and what's the worse... bands rehearsals... I'm playing home but we had to cancel our shows in Poland for which we were fighting very hard, and we spend a lot of money for production... Our India tour in September is under a big question now, I think that it won't happen in that situation... Generally in Poland people are calm now and quite responsible, we have to wear masks outside, keep the 2m distance in shops etc... But still we are making not enough tests in my opinion... 4k tests per day in a 37.000.000 society is waaaay too low.......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:07:15 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 14, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 14, 2020, 06:51:11 AM

Just out of curiosity, are you wearing a mask when you go in public?

I have to wear one at work now.

I do too now unfortunately. Though I'm primarily working from home these days. I still go in once a week or so, but having to wear a mask will make me get in and out as quickly as possible.

My stimulus money from the IRS showed up in my bank account overnight. What should I buy?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 15, 2020, 05:26:42 AM

Invest in fructose :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 15, 2020, 05:28:18 AM

Save it if you don’t need it. Build up a reserve for when the real economic collapse happens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 15, 2020, 05:28:18 AM

Save it if you don’t need it. Build up a reserve for when the real economic collapse happens.

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless. We're spending part of it on some home improvements and saving the rest for baby expenses that we'll need in October.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 15, 2020, 05:54:25 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 15, 2020, 05:28:18 AM

Save it if you don’t need it. Build up a reserve for when the real economic collapse happens.

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Good point  :justjen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 15, 2020, 07:51:57 AM

Plastics. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 15, 2020, 08:00:42 AM

(https://imgur.com/yd9hw1L.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 15, 2020, 08:28:57 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

On the latter, there is a lot of price gouging going on right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 15, 2020, 08:31:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

I've been debating buying a handgun with my stimulus check. I've wanted one for a while but could never get myself to bother with all the paperwork and permits. This gives me an excuse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:32:11 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 15, 2020, 08:28:57 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

On the latter, there is a lot of price gouging going on right now.

And....the second ammunition becomes physically available at any shop it's gone in minutes. You have to know when it's coming and be there onsite. I've seen online outlets selling but I stay away from that method. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 15, 2020, 08:34:20 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 08:31:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

I've been debating buying a handgun with my stimulus check.

That might be the most American thing I've read.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:35:12 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 08:31:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

I've been debating buying a handgun with my stimulus check. I've wanted one for a while but could never get myself to bother with all the paperwork and permits. This gives me an excuse.

You can get a really nice handgun without having to spend all that $1200 as well. Sig Sauer, Glock, FNH, Smith & Wesson.....all have great options in the $500-800 range. Of course you could go all out and spend $1000-1200 as well. But, that $1200 could get you a nice gun, nice holster and a few hundred rounds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 15, 2020, 08:46:32 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:32:11 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 15, 2020, 08:28:57 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

On the latter, there is a lot of price gouging going on right now.

And....the second ammunition becomes physically available at any shop it's gone in minutes. You have to know when it's coming and be there onsite. I've seen online outlets selling but I stay away from that method. 

Which, when you put both of those together, renders your suggestion kind of impractical, doesn't it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 15, 2020, 08:47:15 AM

Ammunition is like money, you need some to get more.  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:49:54 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 15, 2020, 08:46:32 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:32:11 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 15, 2020, 08:28:57 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2020, 05:33:47 AM

The thing is, if there is a real economic collapse, cash may not be helpful if it's worthless.

Increase your ammunition and non perishable food supply

On the latter, there is a lot of price gouging going on right now.

And....the second ammunition becomes physically available at any shop it's gone in minutes. You have to know when it's coming and be there onsite. I've seen online outlets selling but I stay away from that method. 

Which, when you put both of those together, renders your suggestion kind of impractical, doesn't it?

HA! I guess it does  :lol   I know people who buy ammo online all the time. It's the easiest place to get it right now. I just personally don't do it because I prefer to pay cash for my ammo. I guess I'm weird about anyone being able to ascertain exactly how many rounds of ammo I have. I consider that kind of like my bank account....it's no one's business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 15, 2020, 09:18:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM

I'm not in love with wearing a mask. It takes a bit to get used to. Honestly, my suggestion is to not wait two weeks between shopping trips so you don't have to wear it for such a long period of time.

I've spent 8+ hours in a grocery store almost every day during all of this. I think the more you try and normalize your shopping, the less anxiety will build up, mask or no mask.

This is probably the best advice.  I'm not sure I'm going to take it - LoL - but you're probably right.  I just can't imagine having less anxiety by shopping more frequently.  It does make sense as far as less time wearing the mask.

Lethean - I have looked into grocery delivery and there were no open times.  I can check again.  I'm not a huge fan of having someone shop for me (I'm picky) and I've heard stories about weird substitutions.  One guy I know ordered a package of apple turnovers and wound up with 3 apple pies that he didn't have freezer space for. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 09:25:59 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM

I'm not in love with wearing a mask. It takes a bit to get used to. Honestly, my suggestion is to not wait two weeks between shopping trips so you don't have to wear it for such a long period of time.

I've spent 8+ hours in a grocery store almost every day during all of this. I think the more you try and normalize your shopping, the less anxiety will build up, mask or no mask.

I went to the grocery store yesterday for the first time in a couple weeks.  I wore my mask and everything seemed fine for me.  As I go to check out though, I realize this young girl is there scanning every item and being within close distance to every single person who is on line to pay.  Made me really feel bad for her and that maybe going less frequently and buying more at once isn't the best option if I could do a run once a week and use the self check out where I can keep distance from everyone including the workers who are in the line of fire.  Maybe that thought process is wrong too, I'm just not sure what the best and safest way is here.  But I certainly appreciate the work of everyone in the grocery stores.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

I'm planning on putting the money we're getting for the kids into their College Nest accounts. Haven't decided yet on the rest. Either going into the savings account or toward our Car loan.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 15, 2020, 09:33:56 AM

Just to clarify, we ARE being taxed on this money right? I feel like we are, but wasn't 100%.

If we are, it would be pretty prudent to not touch 30-40% of it that they're going to want back next year anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 09:40:09 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 15, 2020, 09:33:56 AM

Just to clarify, we ARE being taxed on this money right? I feel like we are, but wasn't 100%.

If we are, it would be pretty prudent to not touch 30-40% of it that they're going to want back next year anyway.

It was my understanding we weren’t.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:41:32 AM

According to Forbes it is tax free.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/04/14/stimulus-check-myths/#7a9ee137ea3f

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:41:32 AM

According to Forbes it is tax free.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/04/14/stimulus-check-myths/#7a9ee137ea3f

I had seen this article as well

https://money.com/stimulus-check-advance-tax-refund/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 09:44:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 09:25:59 AM

But I certainly appreciate the work of everyone in the grocery stores.

I tell each and every one of them that when I am checking out. Most of them haven't seem too put out by having to be there, or they are just putting on a brave face. Either way I appreciate that as well. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:46:33 AM

I wish there was a way to track how the stimulus money is being spent. I wonder how many new big screens are going to be purchased.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 09:48:49 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:46:33 AM

I wish there was a way to track how the stimulus money is being spent. I wonder how many new big screens are going to be purchased.

My TV went into the shop last week, so I figured mine would be going for one. But it was able to be repaired. I spent the Bush Stimulus checks on a new washer and dryer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2020, 10:05:10 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:46:33 AM

I wish there was a way to track how the stimulus money is being spent. I wonder how many new big screens are going to be purchased.

A good chunk if not all of ours will go towards youth hockey registration for (2) kids and the subsequent costs associated with a youth hockey season. That is.....assuming they get to play this fall.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 10:15:26 AM

I think ours is just going in the bank.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 15, 2020, 10:23:33 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 15, 2020, 09:18:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM

I'm not in love with wearing a mask. It takes a bit to get used to. Honestly, my suggestion is to not wait two weeks between shopping trips so you don't have to wear it for such a long period of time.

I've spent 8+ hours in a grocery store almost every day during all of this. I think the more you try and normalize your shopping, the less anxiety will build up, mask or no mask.

This is probably the best advice.  I'm not sure I'm going to take it - LoL - but you're probably right.  I just can't imagine having less anxiety by shopping more frequently.  It does make sense as far as less time wearing the mask.

Lethean - I have looked into grocery delivery and there were no open times.  I can check again.  I'm not a huge fan of having someone shop for me (I'm picky) and I've heard stories about weird substitutions.  One guy I know ordered a package of apple turnovers and wound up with 3 apple pies that he didn't have freezer space for.

Online shopping is da bomb!  :tup

We actually started doing this before the fan hit the shit. My wife was against it but when we pulled up to Walmart and called the phone number, she was hooked. Now we order at HyVee and they are about 3 or four days out so we go to the store once a week and only order what's needed. We pull up call the number and someone comes and loads the food in the back of the truck. Freakin awesome!  :metal
BTW - don't ask for substitutes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 15, 2020, 10:28:46 AM

So, only three confirmed cases in town... but I just found out who one of them was. An older lady - in her 70s, possibly 80s, I can't remember - down the road from the shop here died late last night from COVID-19. We've worked on her car several times, and I think I actually spoke with her some months ago toward the end of 2019 as we were working on her car. Wow. Heartbreaking. She was a super sweet old lady. The world is cruel. That's one death for my town now, and although it's not someone I knew well at all, I can put a face and voice to it. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 15, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 15, 2020, 09:18:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM

I'm not in love with wearing a mask. It takes a bit to get used to. Honestly, my suggestion is to not wait two weeks between shopping trips so you don't have to wear it for such a long period of time.

I've spent 8+ hours in a grocery store almost every day during all of this. I think the more you try and normalize your shopping, the less anxiety will build up, mask or no mask.

This is probably the best advice.  I'm not sure I'm going to take it - LoL - but you're probably right.  I just can't imagine having less anxiety by shopping more frequently.  It does make sense as far as less time wearing the mask.

Lethean - I have looked into grocery delivery and there were no open times.  I can check again.  I'm not a huge fan of having someone shop for me (I'm picky) and I've heard stories about weird substitutions.  One guy I know ordered a package of apple turnovers and wound up with 3 apple pies that he didn't have freezer space for.

For the places I've shopped, you can say no substitutions.  You can also add notes - like it's fine to substitute any brand as long as it's the same product.  I greatly prefer doing my own shopping, but for now, I'll risk my order not being perfect to just be able to stay out of the store.  It is hard to get a delivery or pickup slot, but if you're persistent you can eventually find something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 15, 2020, 11:18:04 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 15, 2020, 10:28:46 AM

So, only three confirmed cases in town... but I just found out who one of them was. An older lady - in her 70s, possibly 80s, I can't remember - down the road from the shop here died late last night from COVID-19. We've worked on her car several times, and I think I actually spoke with her some months ago toward the end of 2019 as we were working on her car. Wow. Heartbreaking. She was a super sweet old lady. The world is cruel. That's one death for my town now, and although it's not someone I knew well at all, I can put a face and voice to it. :(

:(  That's so sad to hear. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 15, 2020, 11:19:28 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 15, 2020, 10:28:46 AM

So, only three confirmed cases in town... but I just found out who one of them was. An older lady - in her 70s, possibly 80s, I can't remember - down the road from the shop here died late last night from COVID-19. We've worked on her car several times, and I think I actually spoke with her some months ago toward the end of 2019 as we were working on her car. Wow. Heartbreaking. She was a super sweet old lady. The world is cruel. That's one death for my town now, and although it's not someone I knew well at all, I can put a face and voice to it. :(

We hear the numbers, but it doesn't sink in until it happens to someone we know. Really sad for sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 15, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 15, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 15, 2020, 09:18:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM

I'm not in love with wearing a mask. It takes a bit to get used to. Honestly, my suggestion is to not wait two weeks between shopping trips so you don't have to wear it for such a long period of time.

I've spent 8+ hours in a grocery store almost every day during all of this. I think the more you try and normalize your shopping, the less anxiety will build up, mask or no mask.

This is probably the best advice.  I'm not sure I'm going to take it - LoL - but you're probably right.  I just can't imagine having less anxiety by shopping more frequently.  It does make sense as far as less time wearing the mask.

Lethean - I have looked into grocery delivery and there were no open times.  I can check again.  I'm not a huge fan of having someone shop for me (I'm picky) and I've heard stories about weird substitutions.  One guy I know ordered a package of apple turnovers and wound up with 3 apple pies that he didn't have freezer space for.

For the places I've shopped, you can say no substitutions.  You can also add notes - like it's fine to substitute any brand as long as it's the same product.  I greatly prefer doing my own shopping, but for now, I'll risk my order not being perfect to just be able to stay out of the store.  It is hard to get a delivery or pickup slot, but if you're persistent you can eventually find something.

We've been doing the Wal-mart thing for a while (the one close to me is a zoo to get into under the best of circumstances) so we've been working out the kinks for a while.  It's easy to be lazy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 11:39:14 AM

We explored that months ago, pre-Covid, but both find value in walking the aisles, getting specific items we want, and picking up things we hadn't thought of when we see them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 15, 2020, 11:44:31 AM

Walmart grocery pickup is great - my wife has used it for the last 5-6 months.  The only problem is that EVERYONE now wants grocery pickup, so it's either impossible to get a slot or the store doesn't list an item available due to the scarcity of the product.  So in a higher population area, it's not really effective right now.  My wife can be in and out of a grocery store once or twice a week in an hour or less. 

Someday, things will go back to normal and online grocery ordering will be better than it currently is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Silent Cody on April 15, 2020, 12:02:09 PM

I really hope that this epidemic time will teach some people who decide of important stuff, that nowadays we can do so many things, without use of paper and neverending lines...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 15, 2020, 12:27:20 PM

Quote from: The Silent Cody on April 15, 2020, 12:02:09 PM

I really hope that this epidemic time will teach some people who decide of important stuff, that nowadays we can do so many things, without use of paper and neverending lines...

I found I can do my job without having to spend 2 hours a day commuting, putting $2160 a year into a parking garage, or spending $4K+ per year on gas.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on April 15, 2020, 12:46:40 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 09:48:49 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:46:33 AM

I wish there was a way to track how the stimulus money is being spent. I wonder how many new big screens are going to be purchased.

My TV went into the shop last week, so I figured mine would be going for one. But it was able to be repaired. I spent the Bush Stimulus checks on a new washer and dryer.

They still fix TV’s?  We will probably spend a bit of the stimulus to get a new water heater and bring it to code.  Looked the other day and water heater is almost 12 years old.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on April 15, 2020, 12:50:27 PM

I just found out that a swedish radio profile named Adam Alsing have died of Covid, i'm pretty sure no one knows about him here but he had a fun personality and has been on TV and Radio all my life so that hit me pretty hard. 51 years old.  :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on April 15, 2020, 12:50:27 PM

I just found out that a swedish radio profile named Adam Alsing have died of Covid, i'm pretty sure no one knows about him here but he had a fun personality and has been on TV and Radio all my life so that hit me pretty hard. 51 years old.  :-\

That blows. I didn't realize you were from Sweden.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 01:00:28 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 12:27:20 PM

Quote from: The Silent Cody on April 15, 2020, 12:02:09 PM

I really hope that this epidemic time will teach some people who decide of important stuff, that nowadays we can do so many things, without use of paper and neverending lines...

I found I can do my job without having to spend 2 hours a day commuting, putting $2160 a year into a parking garage, or spending $4K+ per year on gas.

Many workers figured that out years ago. Bosses haven't figured that out. Or more likely, they don't care. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on April 15, 2020, 01:06:11 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on April 15, 2020, 12:50:27 PM

I just found out that a swedish radio profile named Adam Alsing have died of Covid, i'm pretty sure no one knows about him here but he had a fun personality and has been on TV and Radio all my life so that hit me pretty hard. 51 years old.  :-\

That blows. I didn't realize you were from Sweden.

Yes sir, I do. Bork bork!  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 01:07:41 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 01:00:28 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 12:27:20 PM

Quote from: The Silent Cody on April 15, 2020, 12:02:09 PM

I really hope that this epidemic time will teach some people who decide of important stuff, that nowadays we can do so many things, without use of paper and neverending lines...

I found I can do my job without having to spend 2 hours a day commuting, putting $2160 a year into a parking garage, or spending $4K+ per year on gas.

Many workers figured that out years ago. Bosses haven't figured that out. Or more likely, they don't care.

I think what is really going to drive this is real estate. My company leases a building that's waaaaay too big for us. Think about how much money the company could save by moving into a significantly smaller building and allowing 75% or more of their employee's to work from home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 15, 2020, 01:19:29 PM

To be honest, it's been a long time since I've been this busy.  With so many contacts I deal with no longer traveling to/from meetings, on planes, in airports, having (largely) meaningless coffee/lunch meetings ... time is spent in real discussions over the phone/video-calling.  Seriously, my calendar has never been so packed.

That's just the nature of my job/career in sales, I'm sure others are having a different experience.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 15, 2020, 01:19:41 PM

Quote from: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 01:07:41 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 01:00:28 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 12:27:20 PM

Quote from: The Silent Cody on April 15, 2020, 12:02:09 PM

I really hope that this epidemic time will teach some people who decide of important stuff, that nowadays we can do so many things, without use of paper and neverending lines...

I found I can do my job without having to spend 2 hours a day commuting, putting $2160 a year into a parking garage, or spending $4K+ per year on gas.

Many workers figured that out years ago. Bosses haven't figured that out. Or more likely, they don't care.

I think what is really going to drive this is real estate. My company leases a building that's waaaaay too big for us. Think about how much money the company could save by moving into a significantly smaller building and allowing 75% or more of their employee's to work from home.

Ever hear of offices with "hotel desks"?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 15, 2020, 01:21:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I'm a Business Systems Analyst and manage audit compliance within my department. I work as a middle-man between IT and our business end users, facilitating changes in production and validation of the work. My job hasn't changed at all. I already worked from home on Tuesdays and Fridays. My plate is no more or less full than when our office was open. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 01:25:51 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

My job mostly requires me to be there to physically fix things or to physically build things as we've been growing non stop since I started this position 6 years ago.  However, with this situation, it changes my job a bit because I can only be in the building for small amounts of time but work in general has slowed so it works out that I don't need to be there.  However, our global data centers that we typically travel to are having some issues with shit breaking and no one there to fix them so one thing that I did today and will need to do more of, is leverage the building's on site staff to do my work for me under my guidance.  I jsut worked with someone in Amsterdam to fix an issue.  So that's a big change for me, and while that is sustainable for the short term, there's no way I can leverage these on site techs to do major installs that we need to do in the future.  Apparently we are officially looking to hire someone in Europe to assist with that as well as there's almost no way I see us being allowed to travel to Europe anytime soon and maybe not even this year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 15, 2020, 01:28:06 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 15, 2020, 01:19:29 PM

To be honest, it's been a long time since I've been this busy.  With so many contacts I deal with no longer traveling to/from meetings, on planes, in airports, having (largely) meaningless coffee/lunch meetings ... time is spent in real discussions over the phone/video-calling.  Seriously, my calendar has never been so packed.

That's just the nature of my job/career in sales, I'm sure others are having a different experience.

Nope, that's my experience.  Granted, as counsel I still have my day job - commercial risk management - but also what I'm calling "corporate risk management", that is, dealing with the impacts of COVID-19 on the company.

I'm with you, though, in that I need some people to get back on the goddamn plane and leave me be!   :)   I had a couple salespeople decide - since they have time now - to get a jump on renewing long term product sales agreements.  And I'm like, "great initiative, but can this wait a month?"    :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 15, 2020, 01:36:29 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

Customer support, by phone, chat and e-mail (which is what I actually do). It was the kind of job that could not be done from home, because the phone systems is at work, the lab with the products is at work, the team managers and technical supporters are at work..... until we found out that eventually it's a work that COULD be done from home.

The phone support has been moved to the chat, so the people answering the calls, had a crash course in how to handle the chats instead. So we work with chats, and I still continue to do what I was doing in the office anyway, answering e-mails. We have a Whatsapp group to contact each other in case of need, and selected people can call customers in case of emergency.

There are also the repair centers themselves who are closed down, so customers have to wait for a repair service anyway.

So my work life hasn't changed at all basically - if only, it improved, I can listen to music  ;D the support is offered from monday to friday and on saturday mornings, we take turns to cover the saturday because we're just a handful of people there, and what I do on saturdays - when it's my turn, once a month, twice when I'm unlucky - I literally come in the office, pump out as many e-mails as possible, and phuck off back home (on saturday there aren't the second level guys to offer technical support, so we're on our own basically, the very difficult or critical stuff gets postponed to monday), so basically any day now it's saturday for me - I log in, I answer e-mails, and what happens over the phone support (now chat) doesn't concern me, I just have the added bonus of writing on Whatsapp to ask support when needed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on April 15, 2020, 01:38:26 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I work in the finance department for an online university.  Looking and reviewing transactions, applying payments to invoices, posting reports, talking to other departments about student's accounts, etc.  So technically, it's easy for me to make the smooth transition to working at home.  That stated, we are going through completing being acquired by another university and that caused me to have a lot more on my plate than I did at this time a year ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:38:35 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 01:21:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I'm a Business Systems Analyst and manage audit compliance within my department. I work as a middle-man between IT and our business end users, facilitating changes in production and validation of the work. My job hasn't changed at all. I already worked from home on Tuesdays and Fridays. My plate is no more or less full than when our office was open.

So I assume your "business end users" are still operating in this environment?

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 15, 2020, 01:19:29 PM

To be honest, it's been a long time since I've been this busy.  With so many contacts I deal with no longer traveling to/from meetings, on planes, in airports, having (largely) meaningless coffee/lunch meetings ... time is spent in real discussions over the phone/video-calling.  Seriously, my calendar has never been so packed.

That's just the nature of my job/career in sales, I'm sure others are having a different experience.

What are you selling?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 15, 2020, 01:47:14 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I'm a programmer.  I connect to the systems remotely anyway, whether it's from my desk 10 miles from here, or from my basement office where I am now.  My life hasn't actually changed significantly because I've been doing this since last year anyway.  My work load hasn't changed at all.

My wife is a call center operator, and she was in the pilot program where they set up a bunch of them with systems at home that connect via wi-fi.  She's been doing this since before the lockdown also.  She's been getting overtime because not everybody has the home setup.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Silent Cody on April 15, 2020, 02:01:29 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I work in hospital as a transplant coordinator and apheresis room manager. My main task is to separate stem cells from Donors, generally. I have my team and we are switching now week by week. So, I'm one week in work, two weeks I'm trying to manage it from home. It's do-able, I never thought that it would work, but it works. I have full salary, my co-workers too. But we have in Poland an epidemic state now and in every minute and every second I can get an order from our minister of health for working with COVID patients, as my main title is nurse and paramedic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 15, 2020, 02:07:51 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

IT Project Management working for the State supporting (drum roll please)…………………………………………………….The Dept. of Health. The applications I manage do not support communicable diseases but I mainly work with food programs like WIC.

Nothing has really changed for me as working in IT, I was used to working from home anyway. As much as I would not recommend a career in IT (can be REALLY stressful) I am reminded of soccer great Pele - 'IT been bery bery good to me'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: goo-goo on April 15, 2020, 02:12:05 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I'm a Metallurgical Engineer Consultant. I do forensic/failure investigations/inspections for power plants, oil-gas, and pulp and paper industries. Mine hasn't changed although less failed parts are trickling in. Our leadership banned flying so we have to drive if we are doing inspection work from Texas to wherever they call us from. Company let g about 15% of the inspectors. Other than that, very few things have changed. Still work, still have a job, and we are considered essential employees due to our support to the industries we serve. We'll see how it goes. May is going to be the real test on how the shutdowns have affected our business. Some power plants cancelled their scheduled maintenance due to covid and that affected other engineers where I work. But hopefully we'll see more failures (lol) since a lot of plants skipped the maintenance. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 02:23:44 PM

Thank you for everyone's responses. Very interesting. I was just curious.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 15, 2020, 02:25:58 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I lead a couple of development teams at a pharmaceutical company.  With some changes in assignments last year, I was already working essentially virtually (my teams were pretty much all folks located in the UK and California), it's just that now I'm doing it from home instead of the office.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: vtgrad on April 15, 2020, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 15, 2020, 01:28:06 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 15, 2020, 01:19:29 PM

To be honest, it's been a long time since I've been this busy.  With so many contacts I deal with no longer traveling to/from meetings, on planes, in airports, having (largely) meaningless coffee/lunch meetings ... time is spent in real discussions over the phone/video-calling.  Seriously, my calendar has never been so packed.

That's just the nature of my job/career in sales, I'm sure others are having a different experience.

Nope, that's my experience.  Granted, as counsel I still have my day job - commercial risk management - but also what I'm calling "corporate risk management", that is, dealing with the impacts of COVID-19 on the company.

I'm with you, though, in that I need some people to get back on the goddamn plane and leave me be!   :)   I had a couple salespeople decide - since they have time now - to get a jump on renewing long term product sales agreements.  And I'm like, "great initiative, but can this wait a month?"    :) :) :)

Mine too.  Mortgage Broker/Mortgage Advisor and quite busy with new purchase business... refi business is a given with rates coming back down to pre-virus levels.  A lot of risk is being priced into rates right now on the back-end, which increases Closing Fees a bit, but the FED is saving everyone's @ss right now in the financial world.

I'm not as busy as I should be judging by most of first quarter production extrapolated forward, but we're still busy.  Purchase transactions are moving forward and people are still buying.  Credit is tightening a bit, but not like 2008-2009.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 15, 2020, 03:15:34 PM

Teacher, teaching from home now. Both my classes in high school and my individual guitar lessons. Things are working our fine. Individual guitars lessons are definitely better than the full class thing. I could however not be doing this forever. Social interaction with teenagers is such a big part of my job and you can't replicate that through online meetings. I'm doing my best, by letting them work together in groups and then speaking to them on a smaller scale (talking to 2-5 students through a screen is obviously going to get you more response than a class of 25), which is quite fun. I hear the same thing all day through though. This is our fourth week of doing this. The kids want to go back to school as well, see each other, have proper social interactions, do fun stuff, etc. I can definitely relate.

It's kind of funny, because since our 'lockdown' I'm actually feeling as if I have way more time and I'm feeling fresher than usual, even with doing a lot more stuff at home as well. Teaching is quite exhaustive to be honest and I have a 2 hour commute as well, I'm less tired than I usually am on a weekday and losing the commute is fantastic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on April 15, 2020, 03:55:59 PM

I work in sales for a large online music and pro audio retailer, and we're one of the few that are "open" and shipping during this whole ordeal.  The sales department is all working remotely right now, but our warehouse team is working staggered shifts at our new warehouse to get gear shipped out.  It's more difficult to work from home, because a lot of our processes are a bit more complicated due to remote access and screen sharing with our work computers and all of that, so it's harder to keep up.  Plus, we're getting slammed with inbound business right now as well, so I'm pretty far behind on my normal customer calls.  Just trying to get through it at this point.  Feeling better this week v. last week, that's for sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on April 15, 2020, 04:40:49 PM

I am an Accountant with the State of Tennessee supporting Environment and Conservation. We are under a Controller that refused to let us try and work from home.  We have now been at home for a month and things are going so well that my manager is going to gently suggest we work from home at least 3 days a week. 

We have the technology, let us use it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 04:44:34 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 09:44:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 09:25:59 AM

But I certainly appreciate the work of everyone in the grocery stores.

I tell each and every one of them that when I am checking out. Most of them haven't seem too put out by having to be there, or they are just putting on a brave face. Either way I appreciate that as well.

I meant to get back to this.

Honestly, it's my job. the store is open, so I go. I'm not put out in the least, but I don't feel I'm being particularly brave either. It's just what I do.

I wear gloves, and now a mask. I wash my hands a lot and sanitizer is always nearby.
I jump in the shower as soon as I get home, and wash my work clothes right after. My shoes get sprayed, and that's it.

Shoppers often thank me for working, especially if I can help them find something, but I don't feel I'm doing anything special. Just going to work, which I feel grateful to be able to do, considering what others are going through..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 04:54:06 PM

Tim, you may feel like it's another day at the job but we do appreciate your work (and those who work with you), a lot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 15, 2020, 05:00:22 PM

That's very nice, thank you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 15, 2020, 07:33:03 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:38:35 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 15, 2020, 01:19:29 PM

To be honest, it's been a long time since I've been this busy.  With so many contacts I deal with no longer traveling to/from meetings, on planes, in airports, having (largely) meaningless coffee/lunch meetings ... time is spent in real discussions over the phone/video-calling.  Seriously, my calendar has never been so packed.

That's just the nature of my job/career in sales, I'm sure others are having a different experience.

What are you selling?

I work for a $3B software company, and manage our global alliance with Deloitte Consulting.  I support all the activities that helps Deloitte implement our software with our joint customers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 11:50:56 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 04:54:06 PM

Tim, you may feel like it's another day at the job but we do appreciate your work (and those who work with you), a lot.

Seriously Tim, we appreciate your mentality, but you are exposing yourself at a level many of us are not, either because we can work from home, or because our company was shut down. And we all need to buy food for our families. #1 priority for us all at this time: survival. That would be a lot harder without you showing up to work every day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 16, 2020, 04:29:17 AM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on April 15, 2020, 01:06:11 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on April 15, 2020, 12:50:27 PM

I just found out that a swedish radio profile named Adam Alsing have died of Covid, i'm pretty sure no one knows about him here but he had a fun personality and has been on TV and Radio all my life so that hit me pretty hard. 51 years old.  :-\

That blows. I didn't realize you were from Sweden.

Yes sir, I do. Bork bork!  :)

That one felt a bit hard..... he was or seemd like such a nice guy. 1 year younger than I am and as far as I know no previous conditions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 16, 2020, 05:16:12 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 11:50:56 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 04:54:06 PM

Tim, you may feel like it's another day at the job but we do appreciate your work (and those who work with you), a lot.

Seriously Tim, we appreciate your mentality, but you are exposing yourself at a level many of us are not, either because we can work from home, or because our company was shut down. And we all need to buy food for our families. #1 priority for us all at this time: survival. That would be a lot harder without you showing up to work every day.

I'm just gonna jump on this.  You're a good man Tim for the attitude that 'it's just my job' - better than most.  But in this day and age that we're living under, your job is an extraordinary service to us all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 16, 2020, 06:23:17 AM

Well thank you, that's very nice, and I certainly didn't share all that for the well wishes. But I was interested in how people are actually working through all of this.

It's really been an interesting experience basically observing the public for the last month.


And don't PM me for toilet paper! :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: New World Rushman on April 16, 2020, 06:26:09 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I work for one of the bigger communications (cable TV, internet, etc.) companies. I'm responsible for coordinating infrastructure maintenance, upgrades, new builds, relocates for road projects (a road is being widened and the utility poles have to be moved), etc.

I could do my job from home, but I am required to come in because somewhere on paper I am considered a "field tech", even though I never go in the field anymore. Only real change is we are social distancing. Usually my department is together in a room with nine cubicles but they moved us around so every other cubicle is empty, I am now in a small conference room by myself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 16, 2020, 07:00:40 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:38:35 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 01:21:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I'm a Business Systems Analyst and manage audit compliance within my department. I work as a middle-man between IT and our business end users, facilitating changes in production and validation of the work. My job hasn't changed at all. I already worked from home on Tuesdays and Fridays. My plate is no more or less full than when our office was open.

So I assume your "business end users" are still operating in this environment?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "this environment", so if I'm answering this incorrectly, my bad.

I'd say 95%+ of our business end users are currently working from home full time. There are a few out in the field that still need to assess damage when things like an unexpected tornado rips through a town, or determine a view of risk when satellite and third party data isn't available.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: frogprog on April 16, 2020, 07:00:48 AM

I'm a lead carpenter/job superintendent for a commercial construction company. I am now in my 5th week of layoff. While this is considered a "furlough" because of covid 19, I'm starting to wonder if or when I will ever be called back. There were only a few of us laid off (that I know of) and I think things would have to become drastically better before they take the step to bring us(me) back. It's scary to think these past 8 years of employment might have ended.Starting over at a new company at my age (53) is not something I look forward to. At least I have unemployment benefits to ride out for the time being and I am of the belief that one door closes, another one (sometimes better) opens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 16, 2020, 07:10:56 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 16, 2020, 07:00:40 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:38:35 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 15, 2020, 01:21:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 15, 2020, 01:09:53 PM

Can I ask what some of you do for work where you can work from home during this time? With many business closed, how have your jobs changed, if at all, while at home? Do you have a full plate of duties and tasks?

I'm a Business Systems Analyst and manage audit compliance within my department. I work as a middle-man between IT and our business end users, facilitating changes in production and validation of the work. My job hasn't changed at all. I already worked from home on Tuesdays and Fridays. My plate is no more or less full than when our office was open.

So I assume your "business end users" are still operating in this environment?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "this environment", so if I'm answering this incorrectly, my bad.

I'd say 95%+ of our business end users are currently working from home full time. There are a few out in the field that still need to assess damage when things like an unexpected tornado rips through a town, or determine a view of risk when satellite and third party data isn't available.

Gotcha. You got it. I was more or less asking if the people or businesses you support are still operating themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 16, 2020, 07:15:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 16, 2020, 05:16:12 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 11:50:56 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2020, 04:54:06 PM

Tim, you may feel like it's another day at the job but we do appreciate your work (and those who work with you), a lot.

Seriously Tim, we appreciate your mentality, but you are exposing yourself at a level many of us are not, either because we can work from home, or because our company was shut down. And we all need to buy food for our families. #1 priority for us all at this time: survival. That would be a lot harder without you showing up to work every day.

I'm just gonna jump on this.  You're a good man Tim for the attitude that 'it's just my job' - better than most.  But in this day and age that we're living under, your job is an extraordinary service to us all.

Yeah, I agree with this as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 16, 2020, 07:37:49 AM

Quote from: frogprog on April 16, 2020, 07:00:48 AM

I'm a lead carpenter/job superintendent for a commercial construction company. I am now in my 5th week of layoff. While this is considered a "furlough" because of covid 19, I'm starting to wonder if or when I will ever be called back. There were only a few of us laid off (that I know of) and I think things would have to become drastically better before they take the step to bring us(me) back. It's scary to think these past 8 years of employment might have ended.Starting over at a new company at my age (53) is not something I look forward to. At least I have unemployment benefits to ride out for the time being and I am of the belief that one door closes, another one (sometimes better) opens.

Frogprog, I'm very sorry to hear about your situation.  I hope you don't need to find a new career in all of this.  But I love your optimism!  Thoughts and prayers with you man :).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 16, 2020, 07:39:39 AM

Quote from: frogprog on April 16, 2020, 07:00:48 AM

I'm a lead carpenter/job superintendent for a commercial construction company. I am now in my 5th week of layoff. While this is considered a "furlough" because of covid 19, I'm starting to wonder if or when I will ever be called back. There were only a few of us laid off (that I know of) and I think things would have to become drastically better before they take the step to bring us(me) back. It's scary to think these past 8 years of employment might have ended.Starting over at a new company at my age (53) is not something I look forward to. At least I have unemployment benefits to ride out for the time being and I am of the belief that one door closes, another one (sometimes better) opens.

Hopefully it works out for you. Things will need to ramp up at some point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 16, 2020, 08:05:10 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 11:50:56 PM

Seriously Tim, we appreciate your mentality, but you are exposing yourself at a level many of us are not

:eek

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on April 16, 2020, 08:08:33 AM

We're hitting peak shitfest in suburban Philadelphia. Basically everyone coming out of a hospital or shared facility is being treated and tested as if they have it, but that's causing delays and backups as the state and coroners are adapting to new protocols. Already handled a few cases, some cremation, some burial, and have more on the way. I've been nicely hoarding our PPE and thought we'd make it through this alright but come Monday everyone has to wear masks all the time per the state. That's going to really strain the supply I have and just lead to re-wearing the same "general public" mask every day while saving one time uses for body preparation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 16, 2020, 08:09:57 AM

Quote from: millahh on April 16, 2020, 08:05:10 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2020, 11:50:56 PM

Seriously Tim, we appreciate your mentality, but you are exposing yourself at a level many of us are not

:eek

(https://media.tenor.com/images/89a8d481e22629744aed65768323fdbc/tenor.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 16, 2020, 08:52:25 AM

My state had its deadliest day so far yesterday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 16, 2020, 08:53:46 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:41:32 AM

According to Forbes it is tax free.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/04/14/stimulus-check-myths/#7a9ee137ea3f

Just saw this. Wow. I did not expect that to be honest. Very good news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:22:51 AM

So when I first had an inkling that stuff was going to get shut down back in early March, I randomly put in a few online apps to grocery stores in the area. One of them called me back yesterday leaving a message about an interview. Really unsure about how to progress on this one.

On one hand, I have no idea what's going to happen with my job post pandemic, whereas grocery stores are going to be there no matter what. I currently cook at the Lyft corporate HQ, and it's very unsure what that's going to look like on the other side of this,or how Lyft is going to fare in itself since they're getting fucking creamed right now. The grocery store is also a Union house, always a plus in my mind.

On the other hand, I am making more on unemployment than the grocery could ever pay me, and a bit more than I made at Lyft with the extra each month. I'm also high risk, being over 50 and diabetic, and the thought of getting sick scares the shit out of me.


At the moment, I'll call them back, I'm always willing to have a chat and keep doors open. Beyond that I'm not sure. A part time gig to get my foot in the door while still getting the extra EDD cash would be ideal, but I'm still putting me out there to get sick. Open to thoughts...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 16, 2020, 09:38:39 AM

My thoughts are that since you're in a high risk category, it might be better to continue to lay low for a while longer.  Maybe for the length of the stay at home orders.  But you could of course ask what the working conditions would be like and how protected the employees are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2020, 09:44:22 AM

That is a tough decision RJ. If you lived anywhere else I personally would think it'd be worth the risk but doesn't your area have a pretty high COVID count? As you mentioned, your in that 'high risk' category....which amplifies the importance of your choices/decisions.

What you said here:

Quote from: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:22:51 AM

I am making more on unemployment than the grocery could ever pay me

seems to suggest that maybe you ride it out for the duration of the window you'd be getting the unemployment. I've spoken with a couple buddies who are either on or their wives are now on unemployment due to COVID. All five of them are making more right now from the unemployment. And that will last at minimum through July.

 I know there is a big question mark right now with the food industry in general as to what post Covid looks like....so, perhaps having a job offer now could be a good thing if you were to take it. But I can't imagine that someone with your pedigree in that industry wouldn't be able to land a solid gig when things start to swing back to 'normal'

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 16, 2020, 09:45:43 AM

RJ, I have thoughts but I need a keyboard. Catch you after work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 16, 2020, 09:47:46 AM

The Delos Corporation can help you virus-proof your body, RJ. :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 16, 2020, 09:50:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 16, 2020, 09:47:46 AM

The Delos Corporation can help you virus-proof your body, RJ. :neverusethis:

Go on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 16, 2020, 09:52:08 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 16, 2020, 09:50:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 16, 2020, 09:47:46 AM

The Delos Corporation can help you virus-proof your body, RJ. :neverusethis:

Go on.

First, we'll need that stimulus check to finance your trip to the South China Sea...  :corn

Seriously though, hoping for the best for you, RJ. Sounds like unemployment would be the way to go for now, although I know a lot of people dislike the idea of staying on that when they could be working. Thinking of you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:55:48 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2020, 09:44:22 AM

That is a tough decision RJ. If you lived anywhere else I personally would think it'd be worth the risk but doesn't your area have a pretty high COVID count? As you mentioned, your in that 'high risk' category....which amplifies the importance of your choices/decisions.

Actually, because the SF Bay Area was the first to set a shelter in place in the country, we've flattened our curve really well. My county, with a population of over 1 million, has just 615 cases with 14 deaths. The rest of the Bay Areas stats are similar. No matter, in the end, I'd rather not ad myself to that statistic.


I'm going to talk with them no matter, always like to keep the conversation open, but I'm leaning towards no at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 16, 2020, 10:31:27 AM

I think that's a wise approach for the moment.  Talking/interviewing isn't any commitment, so kick the can down the road if you can, as well as just be completely honest with them (maybe omit that you'd be taking a pay cut by taking a job) about your worries and concerns.  Though, I'm sure Tim has some good first hand feedback on some of those topics.

It's the 'high-risk' aspect / diabetes that is the biggest concern.  2nd biggest would be what does the food services industry look like on the other side of all this.  Your skills/capabilities are not a concern, but there is likely going to be an imbalance of supply / demand for that skillset.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 16, 2020, 11:22:55 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:22:51 AM

So when I first had an inkling that stuff was going to get shut down back in early March, I randomly put in a few online apps to grocery stores in the area. One of them called me back yesterday leaving a message about an interview. Really unsure about how to progress on this one.

On one hand, I have no idea what's going to happen with my job post pandemic, whereas grocery stores are going to be there no matter what. I currently cook at the Lyft corporate HQ, and it's very unsure what that's going to look like on the other side of this,or how Lyft is going to fare in itself since they're getting fucking creamed right now. The grocery store is also a Union house, always a plus in my mind.

On the other hand, I am making more on unemployment than the grocery could ever pay me, and a bit more than I made at Lyft with the extra each month. I'm also high risk, being over 50 and diabetic, and the thought of getting sick scares the shit out of me.


At the moment, I'll call them back, I'm always willing to have a chat and keep doors open. Beyond that I'm not sure. A part time gig to get my foot in the door while still getting the extra EDD cash would be ideal, but I'm still putting me out there to get sick. Open to thoughts...

Ride it out, especially if you're making more on unemployment. You work your ass off all the fucking time, and if you're high risk, I wouldn't chance getting the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 16, 2020, 11:23:54 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:55:48 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2020, 09:44:22 AM

That is a tough decision RJ. If you lived anywhere else I personally would think it'd be worth the risk but doesn't your area have a pretty high COVID count? As you mentioned, your in that 'high risk' category....which amplifies the importance of your choices/decisions.

Actually, because the SF Bay Area was the first to set a shelter in place in the country, we've flattened our curve really well. My county, with a population of over 1 million, has just 615 cases with 14 deaths. The rest of the Bay Areas stats are similar. No matter, in the end, I'd rather not ad myself to that statistic.


I'm going to talk with them no matter, always like to keep the conversation open, but I'm leaning towards no at this point.

If you turn down a potential job opportunity are you still eligible for unemployment? I know you can lie... just curious how things work there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 16, 2020, 11:25:18 AM

I believe you can't turn down an offer to work, it has to be more than a "potential opportunity."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 16, 2020, 11:31:02 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 16, 2020, 11:25:18 AM

I believe you can't turn down an offer to work, it has to be more than a "potential opportunity."

Declining to interview for a job doesn't count? Seems like it should. Not that I really care in this instance. His health is more important than a potential job.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 11:42:15 AM

I just recieved a call to set up an interview, haven't even called back yet. Honestly I think at this point in time, the EDD is way too fucking buried processing over 2 million claims here to bother checking out one guy's call he received.

My brother was on it for a while after his restaurant closed. After 25 straight years of working, he needed a break. I'm kind of in that boat as well, since I was 18 my longest period of unemployment was about three weeks. I also know he wasn't looking for work until the last month or so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 16, 2020, 11:44:01 AM

Hmm... good question, I didn't think about that distinction. But yeah.. off topic. I can't give a good recommendation on what to do, lonestar. I would say ride it out as Chino did. I am happily temporarily unemployed now, but confident my job will be ready to get back in to once we are allowed back to work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on April 16, 2020, 01:12:51 PM

Moved the video discussion to P/R.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on April 16, 2020, 01:42:59 PM

Quote from: Grappler on April 14, 2020, 06:47:05 AM

Glad you're feeling ok Herrick!

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on April 14, 2020, 08:58:52 AM

Glad you're on the mend!!

Thanks mangs. Day 4 since the symptoms went away. Feeling pretty normal. I can taste food a little better now, maybe like 25-30% better.

Quote from: Adami on April 16, 2020, 08:53:46 AM

Quote from: kaos2900 on April 15, 2020, 09:41:32 AM

According to Forbes it is tax free.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/04/14/stimulus-check-myths/#7a9ee137ea3f

Just saw this. Wow. I did not expect that to be honest. Very good news.

Yeah I'm very surprised they're not taxing it.

Quote from: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:55:48 AM

Actually, because the SF Bay Area was the first to set a shelter in place in the country, we've flattened our curve really well. My county, with a population of over 1 million, has just 615 cases with 14 deaths. The rest of the Bay Areas stats are similar. No matter, in the end, I'd rather not ad myself to that statistic.


I'm going to talk with them no matter, always like to keep the conversation open, but I'm leaning towards no at this point.

Sounds like a good idea. Gotta keep yoself safe, mang.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on April 16, 2020, 03:42:17 PM

Quote from: frogprog on April 16, 2020, 07:00:48 AM

I'm a lead carpenter/job superintendent for a commercial construction company. I am now in my 5th week of layoff. While this is considered a "furlough" because of covid 19, I'm starting to wonder if or when I will ever be called back. There were only a few of us laid off (that I know of) and I think things would have to become drastically better before they take the step to bring us(me) back. It's scary to think these past 8 years of employment might have ended.Starting over at a new company at my age (53) is not something I look forward to. At least I have unemployment benefits to ride out for the time being and I am of the belief that one door closes, another one (sometimes better) opens.

I hear you,,, hang in there, we all are going to get hurt in some way by this virus,  wishing you the very best

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on April 16, 2020, 03:48:03 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on April 16, 2020, 01:12:51 PM

Moved the video discussion to P/R.

'

Thank you XJ

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 16, 2020, 06:47:34 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:22:51 AM

So when I first had an inkling that stuff was going to get shut down back in early March, I randomly put in a few online apps to grocery stores in the area. One of them called me back yesterday leaving a message about an interview. Really unsure about how to progress on this one.

On one hand, I have no idea what's going to happen with my job post pandemic, whereas grocery stores are going to be there no matter what. I currently cook at the Lyft corporate HQ, and it's very unsure what that's going to look like on the other side of this,or how Lyft is going to fare in itself since they're getting fucking creamed right now. The grocery store is also a Union house, always a plus in my mind.

On the other hand, I am making more on unemployment than the grocery could ever pay me, and a bit more than I made at Lyft with the extra each month. I'm also high risk, being over 50 and diabetic, and the thought of getting sick scares the shit out of me.


At the moment, I'll call them back, I'm always willing to have a chat and keep doors open. Beyond that I'm not sure. A part time gig to get my foot in the door while still getting the extra EDD cash would be ideal, but I'm still putting me out there to get sick. Open to thoughts...

RJ, if you are truly concerned about your health, I would think it would be hard to take a job at a grocery store. I'm also an over 50 diabetic. Honestly I don't really think about it. But there are a million touchpoints that you'll come across throughout the course of your shift.

If it's important for you to take a part time job, then great. I worry that as a chef, you'll likely be unfulfilled. I know in our "kitchen" departments, you are basically banging out rotisserie chicken and doing deep fried chicken. Mostly everything comes prepackaged. Most of the dinners are all precooked, and while you may put them together, you are not cooking anything. Just throwing a precooked chicken breast in with an ice cream scoop of premade mashed potatoes and veggies.

As far as being a Union shop, that's not really a big deal. You'll obviously be the low guy on the seniority list, so you'll be the first to go. And you'll be paying dues just for that honor.

If your Lyft job doesn't end up working out after this, It's not like Grocery stores are handing out Full Time jobs. If you're hired in the "kitchen" department, you can bet that you'll likely be working the deli a lot of your time. But as I said, if your Lyft job doesn't work out, at least a potential employer may be impressed by your work ethic in that you wanted to work during this time and not satisfied with umemployment. Let's face it. Most Grocery stores are looking for nights and weekends. I know you have spent your life working these kinds of shifts, and I was happy to see you land the shift you did with Lyft.

If you want to work, and get out of the house, by all means go for it. If you are truly concerned about your health, then I really don't think it's be worth it, especially where you can collect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 16, 2020, 09:31:56 PM

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. I appreciate all the input guys, now I just need to keep happy thoughts that my current job will keep paying my health insurance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 17, 2020, 12:45:45 PM

Got my stimulus check. Not sure how, since all the articles I read essentially said I wouldn't get mine until late June, early July.

Anyway, I guess Illinois is going to announce the shutdown of all schools for the rest of the academic year today. Not a surprise, really. Still fighting with my sons district over his situation. Thankfully, his psychiatrist has been strong arming them and they are finally starting to buckle and grant provisions for his autisim/ADHD.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 17, 2020, 12:48:56 PM

I am a little surprised more states haven't done that already. Not because it is the right/wrong thing to do. Just because it seemed like they way the country was headed. The states/districts who did it earlier got the jump on setting up virtual learning. Our district is moving ahead well (in this one parent's opinion) with it, and I feel good about my kid's last 2 months of schooling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 17, 2020, 01:48:56 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 17, 2020, 12:45:45 PM

Got my stimulus check. Not sure how, since all the articles I read essentially said I wouldn't get mine until late June, early July.

Anyway, I guess Illinois is going to announce the shutdown of all schools for the rest of the academic year today. Not a surprise, really. Still fighting with my sons district over his situation. Thankfully, his psychiatrist has been strong arming them and they are finally starting to buckle and grant provisions for his autisim/ADHD.

We'll get through it, and it's not like we're just sitting on our hands waiting for something to change, but as a general observation, my step-son is really suffering from this.  His anxiety is steadily growing, his focus is steadily decreasing...   hard to watch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 17, 2020, 08:17:18 PM

Wow.  A friend of mine, a guy who until now I didn't exactly consider a genius but did consider reasonably sane, has proven me wrong. He's posting on Facebook about how the whole COVID-19 pandemic is indeed a "trap" for our president, and really, it's so obvious that we're all idiots for not seeing it.  "They've been trying to get him for years. Doesn't the timing seem suspicious?" Fuck.

Full-on Kool-aid drinker. I can't unFriend him, but I had to block him.

Fuck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 17, 2020, 08:25:26 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 17, 2020, 08:17:18 PM

Wow.  A friend of mine, a guy who until now I didn't exactly consider a genius but did consider reasonably sane, has proven me wrong. He's posting on Facebook about how the whole COVID-19 pandemic is indeed a "trap" for our president, and really, it's so obvious that we're all idiots for not seeing it.  "They've been trying to get him for years. Doesn't the timing seem suspicious?" Fuck.

Full-on Kool-aid drinker. I can't unFriend him, but I had to block him.

Fuck.

That's fucked. I mean, I'd be happy tp trap Trump, but I wouldn't sacrifice thousands of grandparents to do so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on April 17, 2020, 09:13:19 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 17, 2020, 08:25:26 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 17, 2020, 08:17:18 PM

Wow.  A friend of mine, a guy who until now I didn't exactly consider a genius but did consider reasonably sane, has proven me wrong. He's posting on Facebook about how the whole COVID-19 pandemic is indeed a "trap" for our president, and really, it's so obvious that we're all idiots for not seeing it.  "They've been trying to get him for years. Doesn't the timing seem suspicious?" Fuck.

Full-on Kool-aid drinker. I can't unFriend him, but I had to block him.

Fuck.

That's fucked. I mean, I'd be happy tp trap Trump, but I wouldn't sacrifice thousands of grandparents to do so.

Ah yes Facebook. I don't miss that cesspool at all.

So do these people believe the whole world is in on this conspiracy or do they believe all news reports on this virus is being manufactured by "the ones out to get Trump"?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 17, 2020, 11:19:34 PM

I can't figure out if he means that the pandemic is not real, or someone is batshit enough to kill tens of thousands of people, starting in a different part of the world no less, just to make our president look bad.  And I'll stop there because this isn't the P/R forum, but you know what I would say next.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 18, 2020, 05:04:38 AM

The amount of hospitalized patients has been steadily decreasing during the last week here. I can see elementary schools and kindergartens re-opening in May if the downward trend continues, similar to Denmark and Norway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 18, 2020, 06:13:04 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 18, 2020, 05:04:38 AM

The amount of hospitalized patients has been steadily decreasing during the last week here. I can see elementary schools and kindergartens re-opening in May if the downward trend continues, similar to Denmark and Norway.

Still too soon.  And stealing from chknptpie's FB page:

(https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93513129_1506041129577611_1884437847675502592_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=W6_Nv1elDvoAX8aOWeq&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&oh=e8fc6ddbb9eb3b3d6d441829cb752324&oe=5EBFE41F)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 18, 2020, 06:42:21 AM

^
Yup, saw that one as well.

As to 'conspiracy' to hurt the current occupant, add the '5G scare' that is now circulating amongst some of the tin foil hat crowd.  One way or another, all the world's major problems throughout the past century can be related to a degree of separation or two from Kevin Bacon (or Bill Gates). ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 18, 2020, 07:48:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 18, 2020, 06:13:04 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 18, 2020, 05:04:38 AM

The amount of hospitalized patients has been steadily decreasing during the last week here. I can see elementary schools and kindergartens re-opening in May if the downward trend continues, similar to Denmark and Norway.

Still too soon.

I'd agree if there weren't any arguments in favor of re-opening these facilities. Severe symptoms in children are extremely rare and they don't seem to be a significant factor in spreading the virus, which we've started to learn based on school quarantines last month. I'm against lifting other restrictions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 18, 2020, 08:07:33 AM

Heard they cancelled San Diego Comic Con, no big surprise, just glad this wasn't the year I finally decided to join my cousin and his wife in their annual venture there. Waiting on them to cancel Prog Power USA, that'll be a meltdown on my FB feed for sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 18, 2020, 09:03:11 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 18, 2020, 07:48:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 18, 2020, 06:13:04 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 18, 2020, 05:04:38 AM

The amount of hospitalized patients has been steadily decreasing during the last week here. I can see elementary schools and kindergartens re-opening in May if the downward trend continues, similar to Denmark and Norway.

Still too soon.

I'd agree if there weren't any arguments in favor of re-opening these facilities. Severe symptoms in children are extremely rare and they don't seem to be a significant factor in spreading the virus, which we've started to learn based on school quarantines last month. I'm against lifting other restrictions.

I not convinced that's a good argument. Adults will be teaching these kids, cleaning the bathrooms etc.. And considering we only got about 6 weeks to the end of the school year, is it really worth the risk?

I live in the county seat which has 5 cities and a population of about 16K. We were flat at 4 cases for 3 weeks but this week, we jumped to 32, 17 in the last 24 hours alone. Now the bulk of these new infections could be at the local meat plant but it's stark reminder that we have a ways to go.

Oh, and now we have these fuck wads protesting and demanding to open up the economy potentially/probably making the problems worse!

It's too early! But I guess people are willing to sacrifice themselves and others. I'm not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 18, 2020, 11:48:38 AM

Grandma lost her fight against covid this morning. NJ nursing homes are hit really hard.  She wasn't at the few you might have seen on the news but it's not like her situation was much better.  She was #6 in that home and is now with my grandpa in a better place

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on April 18, 2020, 11:52:49 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 18, 2020, 11:48:38 AM

Grandma lost her fight against covid this morning. NJ nursing homes are hit really hard.  She wasn't at the few you might have seen on the news but it's not like her situation was much better.  She was #6 in that home and is now with my grandpa in a better place

I'm so sorry for your loss Cramx3!  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 18, 2020, 11:55:41 AM

Sorry to hear that Marc,

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 18, 2020, 12:02:52 PM

Cram, thank you for feeling comfortable enough with us to post that. I believe you said there were going to be no plans for a funeral?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 18, 2020, 12:07:43 PM

Man Marc, very sorry to hear that. My condolences

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 18, 2020, 12:11:35 PM

:( I'm so sorry to hear that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 18, 2020, 12:16:03 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 18, 2020, 11:48:38 AM

Grandma lost her fight against covid this morning. NJ nursing homes are hit really hard.  She wasn't at the few you might have seen on the news but it's not like her situation was much better.  She was #6 in that home and is now with my grandpa in a better place

 :'( being around this thread I was recently wondering how she was doing, and if you'd eventually post good news. Sorry to hear that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 18, 2020, 12:32:13 PM

Damn bro.  I was literally just thinking about this and was going to FB IM you to check in.

:hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 18, 2020, 12:40:08 PM

So sorry Marc  :'(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 18, 2020, 12:59:58 PM

Marc, I am so sorry for your loss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 18, 2020, 01:37:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 18, 2020, 11:48:38 AM

Grandma lost her fight against covid this morning. NJ nursing homes are hit really hard.  She wasn't at the few you might have seen on the news but it's not like her situation was much better.  She was #6 in that home and is now with my grandpa in a better place

That's awful.  Take care dude! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 18, 2020, 01:46:01 PM

So sorry for your loss.  May her memory be a blessing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 18, 2020, 01:48:58 PM

Marc, that sucks. The TACs will be sending thoughts and prayers to the Crams.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 18, 2020, 02:07:09 PM

So sorry, to hear that, Marc. :( But as you say, she's in a better place now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 18, 2020, 04:01:26 PM

My condolences  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 18, 2020, 04:14:30 PM

So sorry to hear this news Cram, condolences to you and you4 family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on April 18, 2020, 05:33:08 PM

Sorry to hear of your loss, Marc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 18, 2020, 06:11:53 PM

Sorry to hear that, my condolances to you and your family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 18, 2020, 06:27:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 18, 2020, 11:48:38 AM

Grandma lost her fight against covid this morning. NJ nursing homes are hit really hard.  She wasn't at the few you might have seen on the news but it's not like her situation was much better.  She was #6 in that home and is now with my grandpa in a better place

Very sorry for your loss as well.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on April 18, 2020, 09:21:54 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 18, 2020, 11:48:38 AM

Grandma lost her fight against covid this morning. NJ nursing homes are hit really hard.  She wasn't at the few you might have seen on the news but it's not like her situation was much better.  She was #6 in that home and is now with my grandpa in a better place

So sorry for your loss.  :-[

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 18, 2020, 10:01:10 PM

I taught high school back in the 90's, at a spiffy magnet school in Maryland.  Some of my students are now doctors, research scientists, engineers, etc., because the school was kind of a big deal.  I get to follow some pretty interesting conversations on Facebook sometimes.  One of my former students, a doctor at a Boston hospital shared this:

CDC reviewing ‘stunning’ universal testing results from Boston homeless shelter (https://www.boston25news.com/news/cdc-reviewing-stunning-universal-testing-results-boston-homeless-shelter/Z253TFBO6RG4HCUAARBO4YWO64/)

They tested all 397 residents of a Boston homeless shelter for COVID-19.  Of the 397 people tested, 146 people tested positive. Not a single one had any symptoms.

37% were positive, with no symptoms.

I read a similar story the other day, I think it was the U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt, the aircraft carrier which has had an outbreak on board.  I can't find the article now, but the point was that out of the 4800 on board, over 600 tested positive, which is obviously not great, but the point was that a high percentage of them (I thought it was like 60%) were asymptomatic.  Much higher than expected.  No symptoms at all.

I was telling my wife about this, and she says it's bad.  Way bad, because it means so many seemingly healthy people are spreading it around.  Okay true, but everybody is supposed to be locking down, staying home, masking up, etc.  So honestly, I don't really care that much about all the asymptomatic ones because it doesn't affect me or anyone I know.  Everyone I know is already locking down.

I actually found it encouraging, in a twisted, selfish way.  I feel a little better reading about how many carriers are asymptomatic, because I'm scared of catching it and dying, or if not dying then maybe ending up like my friend David (guitarist from our band).  In a twisted way, I'm encouraged by these test results because it means that way more people than they realized could catch it and be perfectly fine.  I can now realistically hope that if I get it, I'll still be okay.  I may have already been exposed and be okay.

I'm 58, I have a heart condition, a history of asthma, and as of my last physical am borderline diabetic.  I figure I'm as high-risk as they come, and if I get it, I'm doomed.  But hey, maybe I'll be fine.  You never know.  It isn't just your health history; a lot of it just comes down to your physiology.  They don't really know why some people get it and it literally doesn't affect them.  400 people in a homeless shelter, you have to figure that at least some of these guys aren't in the best of health, but zero symptoms.  Roll the bones.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 18, 2020, 10:13:28 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 18, 2020, 10:01:10 PM

Okay true, but everybody is supposed to be locking down, staying home, masking up, etc. 

I don't want to derail the gist of your post, because I liked reading it. But the quoted part is not accurate. There is a large percentage of people still "out there," working in jobs their local governments have deemed "essential." Without getting in to a debate about the politics of that, there are people still working in government offices, grocery stores, warehouses, construction sites, etc... they should be doing so with a heightened awareness about distancing, masks, gloves, and all that. But regardless everybody isn't locked down as you said.

Whether or not the crux of your post can be viewed as a positive or a negative is a good point of discussion. I happen to take your side over your wife's. I would be more concerned if the numbers of asymptotic infected people was much lower.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 18, 2020, 10:25:03 PM

Okay, not everybody.  You're right; that was hyperbole combined with not really thinking it through.

I just meant that most people are already supposed to stay home as much as they can, and finding out that people are testing positive but not showing any symptoms doesn't change who should be self-isolating and who should not.  It shouldn't change that at all.  Some people catch it and it doesn't hurt them.  Good!  I hope I'm one of them.  That's all I meant.  Everyone should still stay home if they can.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 19, 2020, 07:09:58 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 18, 2020, 11:48:38 AM

Grandma lost her fight against covid this morning. NJ nursing homes are hit really hard.  She wasn't at the few you might have seen on the news but it's not like her situation was much better.  She was #6 in that home and is now with my grandpa in a better place

I'm so sorry Marc. She, you and your family are in my thoughts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 19, 2020, 07:21:43 AM

Regarding Orbert's post about the asymptomatic rate, a friend sent me this:  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1

The gist is that we may be under-reporting infected by 50-85-fold!  I knew were were way under for multiple reasons, but I figured we were under by maybe 10-15x, not 50-85x!!

Reason why I think we are way under:
-Only very severe patients getting tested
-The suspiciously low rate of positive test results, even when a person hits all the fingerprint symptoms/timing/exposure
-The horror stories I'm starting to hear about the slapdash way a lot of the clinical labs are doing their testing...lots of relatively fly-by-night shops are getting a lot of work, and there is just a tidal wave of tests that anyone with the right equipment and the right piece of paper is running them, never mind staffing, experience with this type of test, how hard they are running their staff, quality standards, etc. 

I'm also unsure if the higher asymptomatic rate is good or bad....it would seem to cap the worst case mortality numbers much lower than we thought, but it also means we are seeming helpless to do much about it. [shruggie]

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 19, 2020, 08:24:26 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 18, 2020, 10:01:10 PM

I actually found it encouraging, in a twisted, selfish way.  I feel a little better reading about how many carriers are asymptomatic, because I'm scared of catching it and dying, or if not dying then maybe ending up like my friend David (guitarist from our band).  In a twisted way, I'm encouraged by these test results because it means that way more people than they realized could catch it and be perfectly fine.  I can now realistically hope that if I get it, I'll still be okay.  I may have already been exposed and be okay.

I'm 58, I have a heart condition, a history of asthma, and as of my last physical am borderline diabetic.  I figure I'm as high-risk as they come, and if I get it, I'm doomed.  But hey, maybe I'll be fine.  You never know.  It isn't just your health history; a lot of it just comes down to your physiology.  They don't really know why some people get it and it literally doesn't affect them.  400 people in a homeless shelter, you have to figure that at least some of these guys aren't in the best of health, but zero symptoms.  Roll the bones.

Yeah, I can totally follow your logic here about being optimistic. With so many people positive, asymptomatic, and recovered, it does allow me to go to work everyday with the belief that I will be able to fight it off if I get it. Maybe that's false hope. Who knows. When your time is up, it's up, I guess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 19, 2020, 09:16:05 AM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 07:21:43 AM

Regarding Orbert's post about the asymptomatic rate, a friend sent me this:  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1

The gist is that we may be under-reporting infected by 50-85-fold!  I knew were were way under for multiple reasons, but I figured we were under by maybe 10-15x, not 50-85x!!

Reason why I think we are way under:
-Only very severe patients getting tested
-The suspiciously low rate of positive test results, even when a person hits all the fingerprint symptoms/timing/exposure
-The horror stories I'm starting to hear about the slapdash way a lot of the clinical labs are doing their testing...lots of relatively fly-by-night shops are getting a lot of work, and there is just a tidal wave of tests that anyone with the right equipment and the right piece of paper is running them, never mind staffing, experience with this type of test, how hard they are running their staff, quality standards, etc. 

I'm also unsure if the higher asymptomatic rate is good or bad....it would seem to cap the worst case mortality numbers much lower than we thought, but it also means we are seeming helpless to do much about it. [shruggie]

I have been saying this for months. The death rate is very likely at least an order of magnitude lower, if not up to 50 times lower, than the rates being told to us. The Minnesota department of heath stated in something last week that it could be as low as 1% of cases that are actually being identified here. This puts the death rate at a fraction of a percent, in line with most normal flu years. Clearly, this is spreading much faster than a typical flu, leading to the full hospitals that we're seeing. There are certainly going to be many deaths from it, but there are tens of thousands of deaths from the flu in the US every year as well. I honestly don't know what to make of all of it either. Part of me thinks we just let it spread until it dies out, while quarantining the high risk people instead of everyone. Clearly we can't keep the economy shut down for another year until a vaccine is ready.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 19, 2020, 09:24:01 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 19, 2020, 09:16:05 AM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 07:21:43 AM

Regarding Orbert's post about the asymptomatic rate, a friend sent me this:  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1

The gist is that we may be under-reporting infected by 50-85-fold!  I knew were were way under for multiple reasons, but I figured we were under by maybe 10-15x, not 50-85x!!

Reason why I think we are way under:
-Only very severe patients getting tested
-The suspiciously low rate of positive test results, even when a person hits all the fingerprint symptoms/timing/exposure
-The horror stories I'm starting to hear about the slapdash way a lot of the clinical labs are doing their testing...lots of relatively fly-by-night shops are getting a lot of work, and there is just a tidal wave of tests that anyone with the right equipment and the right piece of paper is running them, never mind staffing, experience with this type of test, how hard they are running their staff, quality standards, etc. 

I'm also unsure if the higher asymptomatic rate is good or bad....it would seem to cap the worst case mortality numbers much lower than we thought, but it also means we are seeming helpless to do much about it. [shruggie]

I have been saying this for months. The death rate is very likely at least an order of magnitude lower, if not up to 50 times lower, than the rates being told to us. The Minnesota department of heath stated in something last week that it could be as low as 1% of cases that are actually being identified here. This puts the death rate at a fraction of a percent, in line with most normal flu years. Clearly, this is spreading much faster than a typical flu, leading to the full hospitals that we're seeing. There are certainly going to be many deaths from it, but there are tens of thousands of deaths from the flu in the US every year as well. I honestly don't know what to make of all of it either. Part of me thinks we just let it spread until it dies out, while quarantining the high risk people instead of everyone. Clearly we can't keep the economy shut down for another year until a vaccine is ready.

There really is only one reason why "we are way under".

There are not enough tests to go around which is why only severe patients were getting tested early on. On January 29th the virus was sequenced meaning that we could have and should have been manufacturing tests by the millions. But the poor response by our leaders caused about a 30 day delay and we still don't have enough tests. Anyone who can read a graph saw the spike beginning mid-March. I actually sit here and wonder if this was by design because the President wanted to keep the reported numbers low. I mean he actually said on live TV that he didn't want that cruise ship docking because he didn't want the numbers to rise.

They are not counting the number of deaths that were likely related to COVID if they never got tested. I wonder if they're even tracking these deaths as Probable.

BTW - you open up things too soon and we will be seeing this thing spread in waves for at least a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 19, 2020, 09:44:31 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 19, 2020, 09:24:01 AM

BTW - you open up things too soon and we will be seeing this thing spread in waves for at least a year.

But if the death rate is 1/20th of the published rates, does it matter? That puts it in line with a bad flu year and we don't do anything crazy about that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 19, 2020, 09:49:45 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 19, 2020, 09:44:31 AM

But if the death rate is 1/20th of the published rates, does it matter? That puts it in line with a bad flu year and we don't do anything crazy about that.

Exactly. And this is where the way this was handled by our media and the was it was politicized comes in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 19, 2020, 10:58:45 AM

Thanks everyone, means a lot to me to see the love. 

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 18, 2020, 12:02:52 PM

Cram, thank you for feeling comfortable enough with us to post that. I believe you said there were going to be no plans for a funeral?

So last night the whole side of the family did a zoom call with prayers and whatnot, and it had been determined she will be buried right away without funeral.  It's just not possible given the situation.  There will be a memorial service when this all clears for the family to pay their respects but we will not get an opportunity to see grandma again.  It was at least good to hear her body was already being taken to the funeral home to be prepared unlike the horror stories I've heard of other nursing homes just packing the bodies in a shed outside. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 19, 2020, 11:02:44 AM

Of course it matters.  Given what's already happened, it doesn't matter what the death rate is.  It matters in the sense that we need our information to be as accurate as possible. But it doesn't matter in terms of shutting things down and opening things back up. If it wasn't any worse than the flu, then we wouldn't have seen hospitals overrun. Italy, New York, Spain, etc wouldn't be overwhelmed. And we would have less deaths. So even if the virus has the same death rate is the flu, if many more people get it, and the serious cases require more time in the hospital, which they do, then we're still where we are. We can't just open up and let people die. Maybe we can't wait for vaccine, but I think there's probably an in-between option. Which includes way more testing, contact tracing, etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 19, 2020, 11:06:12 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 19, 2020, 10:58:45 AM

Thanks everyone, means a lot to me to see the love. 

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 18, 2020, 12:02:52 PM

Cram, thank you for feeling comfortable enough with us to post that. I believe you said there were going to be no plans for a funeral?

So last night the whole side of the family did a zoom call with prayers and whatnot, and it had been determined she will be buried right away without funeral.  It's just not possible given the situation.  There will be a memorial service when this all clears for the family to pay their respects but we will not get an opportunity to see grandma again.  It was at least good to hear her body was already being taken to the funeral home to be prepared unlike the horror stories I've heard of other nursing homes just packing the bodies in a shed outside.

That's horrible - I hadn't read that that was happening.  I'm glad at least that it didn't happen to your grandmother.  It must be hard not to be able to have a funeral, but I'm glad you were able to get together online and can have a memorial at some point. I hope you're doing ok. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 19, 2020, 11:19:01 AM

I'm really sorry to hear all this, Marc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 19, 2020, 11:59:17 AM

So sorry for your loss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: coz on April 19, 2020, 12:01:39 PM

Sorry to hear about your loss, Marc.

I hardly ever post here, but lurk around and like some of your concert videos on YT.

Carlos

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 03:23:36 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 19, 2020, 11:02:44 AM

Of course it matters.  Given what's already happened, it doesn't matter what the death rate is.  It matters in the sense that we need our information to be as accurate as possible. But it doesn't matter in terms of shutting things down and opening things back up. If it wasn't any worse than the flu, then we wouldn't have seen hospitals overrun. Italy, New York, Spain, etc wouldn't be overwhelmed. And we would have less deaths. So even if the virus has the same death rate is the flu, if many more people get it, and the serious cases require more time in the hospital, which they do, then we're still where we are. We can't just open up and let people die. Maybe we can't wait for vaccine, but I think there's probably an in-between option. Which includes way more testing, contact tracing, etc.

And Bingo was his name.  Mortality rates are one thing, absolute deaths and hospitalizations are another... which leads to the indirect effect of other health matters not getting attention - I have a friend who was supposed to be scheduled to have a tumour removed.  It's now postponed.  How fucking scary is that!?!?

I can't begin to describe how much my blood boils anytime someone tries to draw similarities to influenza ... "and we don't do anything crazy about that".  Sorry lorxizor, I just can't be any further away from your position on this.

22M unemployed is a goddamn fucking disaster and tragedy, for sure.  How would 22M in the hospital (or worse ... dead) sound instead?

Can't remember if this was posted here, or elsewhere - Covid vs. US Daily Average Cause of Death (https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1712761/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 19, 2020, 03:32:59 PM

This this has killed 6x as many New Yorkers as 9-11, and it will be a much higher multiple when this is done.  9-11 was worth two forever-wars (at both massive cost, massive loss of civilian life and loss of US military personnel) , irreversibly losing some civil liberties, and a massive economic hit.  And yet trying to flatten the curve is somehow a massive government overreach?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 03:46:32 PM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 03:32:59 PM

This this has killed 6x as many New Yorkers as 9-11, and it will be a much higher multiple when this is done.  9-11 was worth two forever-wars (at both massive cost, massive loss of civilian life and loss of US military personnel) , irreversibly losing some civil liberties, and a massive economic hit.  And yet trying to flatten the curve is somehow a massive government overreach?

*Like*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 19, 2020, 04:33:11 PM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 03:32:59 PM

This this has killed 6x as many New Yorkers as 9-11, and it will be a much higher multiple when this is done.  9-11 was worth two forever-wars (at both massive cost, massive loss of civilian life and loss of US military personnel) , irreversibly losing some civil liberties, and a massive economic hit.  And yet trying to flatten the curve is somehow a massive government overreach?

Not advocating the position, but for some, depriving them of their livelihood because they are deemed "non-essential" is an unnecessary overreach.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 05:06:30 PM

This is freakin awesome (and worth the 2-minute read).   :hefdaddy

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/dogs-joining-fight-against-covid-by-sniffing-out-virus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 19, 2020, 05:10:45 PM

I heard about that the other day. Definitely cool.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: millahh on April 19, 2020, 05:35:00 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 19, 2020, 04:33:11 PM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 03:32:59 PM

This this has killed 6x as many New Yorkers as 9-11, and it will be a much higher multiple when this is done.  9-11 was worth two forever-wars (at both massive cost, massive loss of civilian life and loss of US military personnel) , irreversibly losing some civil liberties, and a massive economic hit.  And yet trying to flatten the curve is somehow a massive government overreach?

Not advocating the position, but for some, depriving them of their livelihood because they are deemed "non-essential" is an unnecessary overreach.

So to them, what makes it an overreach is they they are personally affected. If it's just people on the getting killed in another country, that's all just fine, and even good. Not attributing this position to you, but it's just a mind-blowing sounds of privilege and self-centered-ness.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 19, 2020, 05:42:14 PM

There is some validity to questioning some of the essential/non-essential designations. Not taking up the argument personally, but for example, why should my company (residential remodeling) be shut down (affecting our team of 4, who are often never on the same job site together and came make it through a whole day without being within 10' of anyone), when hundreds of people are working together on a government construction project?

Again, I am trying to lay this out from an objective standpoint, and not address your larger point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on April 19, 2020, 05:59:25 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 19, 2020, 05:42:14 PM

There is some validity to questioning some of the essential/non-essential designations. Not taking up the argument personally, but for example, why should my company (residential remodeling) be shut down (affecting our team of 4, who are often never on the same job site together and came make it through a whole day without being within 10' of anyone), when hundreds of people are working together on a government construction project?

Again, I am trying to lay this out from an objective standpoint, and not address your larger point.

I think my reply in P/R the other day about boating and moving to second homes is probably applicable here, too. Despite the relative safety of your particular job, others have to be there to support your ability to work. Guys in orange aprons and guys who run gas stations, for example. It's not just about you personally, but the larger effect of having people out and about all the time. Cutting that number in half makes things considerably safer for the people who have to work, which makes things safer for you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 19, 2020, 10:06:43 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 05:06:30 PM

This is freakin awesome (and worth the 2-minute read).   :hefdaddy

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/dogs-joining-fight-against-covid-by-sniffing-out-virus/

Hmmm, no covid sniffing cats I see....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 19, 2020, 10:22:56 PM

Yeah, congrats, you're using your beloved companions as tools. They didn't sign up to be doctors. I know what this is all about: free labor! :tdwn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 19, 2020, 11:34:36 PM

:lolpalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 19, 2020, 11:50:05 PM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 07:21:43 AM

Regarding Orbert's post about the asymptomatic rate, a friend sent me this:  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1

The gist is that we may be under-reporting infected by 50-85-fold!  I knew were were way under for multiple reasons, but I figured we were under by maybe 10-15x, not 50-85x!!

Not surprising.  I mean, we KNOW the mortality rate shouldn't be 21%, but that's what the numbers are showing.  That's the problem--or should I say, a problem--with incomplete data.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on April 20, 2020, 12:41:20 AM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 07:21:43 AM

Regarding Orbert's post about the asymptomatic rate, a friend sent me this:  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1

What's your take on this rebuttal to the validity of the claims made here? https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/04/19/fatal-flaws-in-stanford-study-of-coronavirus-prevalence/

I imagine the estimates should sharpen up as the percentage infected exceeds the specificity rate of the antibody test.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 20, 2020, 06:21:06 AM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 05:35:00 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 19, 2020, 04:33:11 PM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 03:32:59 PM

This this has killed 6x as many New Yorkers as 9-11, and it will be a much higher multiple when this is done.  9-11 was worth two forever-wars (at both massive cost, massive loss of civilian life and loss of US military personnel) , irreversibly losing some civil liberties, and a massive economic hit.  And yet trying to flatten the curve is somehow a massive government overreach?

Not advocating the position, but for some, depriving them of their livelihood because they are deemed "non-essential" is an unnecessary overreach.

So to them, what makes it an overreach is they they are personally affected. If it's just people on the getting killed in another country, that's all just fine, and even good. Not attributing this position to you, but it's just a mind-blowing sounds of privilege and self-centered-ness.

I'm also not advocating that we should immediately open up everything and go back to life as normal. But I do strongly believe that if this goes on for for much longer, the financial impacts, permanent loss of jobs, bankrupt businesses, long term high unemployment, high levels of inflation due to the government printing money for the stimulus packages, eventual loss of homes, and all of the other economic fallout starts to become as negative as the loss of life from the virus. There is a correlation between being unemployed and premature death, plus mental health issues that will arise from it. I don't know where the tipping point is and I'm glad I'm not the one making the decisions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 07:33:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 03:23:36 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 19, 2020, 11:02:44 AM

Of course it matters.  Given what's already happened, it doesn't matter what the death rate is.  It matters in the sense that we need our information to be as accurate as possible. But it doesn't matter in terms of shutting things down and opening things back up. If it wasn't any worse than the flu, then we wouldn't have seen hospitals overrun. Italy, New York, Spain, etc wouldn't be overwhelmed. And we would have less deaths. So even if the virus has the same death rate is the flu, if many more people get it, and the serious cases require more time in the hospital, which they do, then we're still where we are. We can't just open up and let people die. Maybe we can't wait for vaccine, but I think there's probably an in-between option. Which includes way more testing, contact tracing, etc.

And Bingo was his name.  Mortality rates are one thing, absolute deaths and hospitalizations are another... which leads to the indirect effect of other health matters not getting attention - I have a friend who was supposed to be scheduled to have a tumour removed.  It's now postponed.  How fucking scary is that!?!?

I can't begin to describe how much my blood boils anytime someone tries to draw similarities to influenza ... "and we don't do anything crazy about that".  Sorry lorxizor, I just can't be any further away from your position on this.

22M unemployed is a goddamn fucking disaster and tragedy, for sure.  How would 22M in the hospital (or worse ... dead) sound instead?

Can't remember if this was posted here, or elsewhere - Covid vs. US Daily Average Cause of Death (https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1712761/)

I could watch that graph over and over, independent of the information it's putting out.

I fall on the side of protection, at least at the outset, but it's not "tin foil hat" nor partisanship to at least have the discussion as to where the risk line falls.   "Even one death" is not always an acceptable standard, and there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of that on a daily basis.   No, "it's not the flu" in many ways, but it's also not a meteor that would wipe us from the face of the earth in a matter of seconds.   I think it's worth having adults - read, not politicians or news-casters - having the discussion as to where we put the line.   We're going to get to a point - if we haven't already - that the number of people who live, who have not been infected with this, and whose lives have irreparably changed for the worse, will well outnumber the number of people dying or seriously ill with the virus.  Is that a point we can use as an inflection?  Who gets to decide?   I don't think it's determinative, but as a concept to be discussed, the idea that "our rights don't end at the point your fear begins" is something that cannot be ignored.   (EDIT II: Sorry; ninja'd to a degree by Lordxizor).

How we handle this also has massive ramifications for how we look at certain unrelated rights/privileges tradeoffs in the future.  That cannot be ignored.   

EDIT: And as an observation, the "parachute" analogy is cute, but it's not accurate.  The course of the COVID-19 arc is not analogous to a skydive; it's not finite, it's not a freely-elected activity, it's not a solo sport, it's not a straight, measurable plot (you can calculate your time of decent and your point of impact almost exactly with the right initial parameters).  That's really just a cute way of pushing a desired outcome.

EDIT III: And it's worth noting that as a Libertarian, it bristles to have non-elected, non-public service people making these determinations, these judgments, without due consideration to all sides of the issue.   I'm not saying it's WRONG, per se, but it bristles. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 20, 2020, 07:51:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 07:33:28 AM

EDIT III: And it's worth noting that as a Libertarian, it bristles to have non-elected, non-public service people making these determinations, these judgments, without due consideration to all sides of the issue.   I'm not saying it's WRONG, per se, but it bristles. 

I agree with this. I also have a problem with governors being able to unilaterally decide what gets closed and what stays open. There was a resolution in the Minnesota legislature to end the governor's restrictions when they expire and let the legislature work with the governor to craft the response to the pandemic. I don't think it passed, but as far as I'm concerned, the more elected officials involved in determining the course of action, the better. I get that the governors needed to act quickly and use their emergency powers to do so, but now is the time to work together on the best solutions, IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 20, 2020, 07:58:42 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 07:33:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 03:23:36 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 19, 2020, 11:02:44 AM

Of course it matters.  Given what's already happened, it doesn't matter what the death rate is.  It matters in the sense that we need our information to be as accurate as possible. But it doesn't matter in terms of shutting things down and opening things back up. If it wasn't any worse than the flu, then we wouldn't have seen hospitals overrun. Italy, New York, Spain, etc wouldn't be overwhelmed. And we would have less deaths. So even if the virus has the same death rate is the flu, if many more people get it, and the serious cases require more time in the hospital, which they do, then we're still where we are. We can't just open up and let people die. Maybe we can't wait for vaccine, but I think there's probably an in-between option. Which includes way more testing, contact tracing, etc.

And Bingo was his name.  Mortality rates are one thing, absolute deaths and hospitalizations are another... which leads to the indirect effect of other health matters not getting attention - I have a friend who was supposed to be scheduled to have a tumour removed.  It's now postponed.  How fucking scary is that!?!?

I can't begin to describe how much my blood boils anytime someone tries to draw similarities to influenza ... "and we don't do anything crazy about that".  Sorry lorxizor, I just can't be any further away from your position on this.

22M unemployed is a goddamn fucking disaster and tragedy, for sure.  How would 22M in the hospital (or worse ... dead) sound instead?

Can't remember if this was posted here, or elsewhere - Covid vs. US Daily Average Cause of Death (https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1712761/)

I could watch that graph over and over, independent of the information it's putting out.

I fall on the side of protection, at least at the outset, but it's not "tin foil hat" nor partisanship to at least have the discussion as to where the risk line falls.   "Even one death" is not always an acceptable standard, and there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of that on a daily basis.   No, "it's not the flu" in many ways, but it's also not a meteor that would wipe us from the face of the earth in a matter of seconds.   I think it's worth having adults - read, not politicians or news-casters - having the discussion as to where we put the line.   We're going to get to a point - if we haven't already - that the number of people who live, who have not been infected with this, and whose lives have irreparably changed for the worse, will well outnumber the number of people dying or seriously ill with the virus.  Is that a point we can use as an inflection?  Who gets to decide?   I don't think it's determinative, but as a concept to be discussed, the idea that "our rights don't end at the point your fear begins" is something that cannot be ignored.   (EDIT II: Sorry; ninja'd to a degree by Lordxizor).

How we handle this also has massive ramifications for how we look at certain unrelated rights/privileges tradeoffs in the future.  That cannot be ignored.   

EDIT: And as an observation, the "parachute" analogy is cute, but it's not accurate.  The course of the COVID-19 arc is not analogous to a skydive; it's not finite, it's not a freely-elected activity, it's not a solo sport, it's not a straight, measurable plot (you can calculate your time of decent and your point of impact almost exactly with the right initial parameters).  That's really just a cute way of pushing a desired outcome.

EDIT III: And it's worth noting that as a Libertarian, it bristles to have non-elected, non-public service people making these determinations, these judgments, without due consideration to all sides of the issue.   I'm not saying it's WRONG, per se, but it bristles.

I made a similar post in the political thread. At some point in the not so distant
future, we will have tough choices to make.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 20, 2020, 08:21:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 03:23:36 PM

I can't begin to describe how much my blood boils anytime someone tries to draw similarities to influenza ... "and we don't do anything crazy about that".  Sorry lorxizor, I just can't be any further away from your position on this.

Just wanted to point out that I wasn't speaking "from my position". I was just bringing up points for discussion. We clearly need to do something. And clearly this is a different animal than the flu. It's obviously quite a bit more contagious than the flu and is spreading much faster.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 20, 2020, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: millahh on April 19, 2020, 05:35:00 PM

it's just a mind-blowing sounds of privilege and self-centered-ness.

I spent a good part of this weekend being very upset about the protestors at various cities across America.  People I love are literally putting their lives on the line to help save lives in the hospital so these covidiots can block traffic to hospitals and play dress up with their camo and flags.

But when I woke up this morning I had a different thought and now I'm not feeling as angry about it.  In 2-3 weeks we will see if this little experiment has an impact on hospitalizations and death counts.  I guess that could be a good litmus test for the rest of us.  Sorry to be harsh, but when you choose the behavior, you choose the consequence.  And who knows?  If we don't see spikes in deaths or ICU admissions, then maybe I'll even feel like thanking them.  Time will tell.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 20, 2020, 08:29:04 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 07:33:28 AM

I fall on the side of protection, at least at the outset, but it's not "tin foil hat" nor partisanship to at least have the discussion as to where the risk line falls.   "Even one death" is not always an acceptable standard, and there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of that on a daily basis.   No, "it's not the flu" in many ways, but it's also not a meteor that would wipe us from the face of the earth in a matter of seconds.   I think it's worth having adults - read, not politicians or news-casters - having the discussion as to where we put the line.   We're going to get to a point - if we haven't already - that the number of people who live, who have not been infected with this, and whose lives have irreparably changed for the worse, will well outnumber the number of people dying or seriously ill with the virus.  Is that a point we can use as an inflection?  Who gets to decide?   I don't think it's determinative, but as a concept to be discussed, the idea that "our rights don't end at the point your fear begins" is something that cannot be ignored.   (EDIT II: Sorry; ninja'd to a degree by Lordxizor).

I don't disagree with this statement.  But here's the "but" - taking action to solve the issues for the 'uninfected' people will increase the number of infected (and by extension, dead).  So the tipping point isn't an absolute, it's a sliding scale.  800k confirmed cases in US/Canada; 23M unemployed.  Let's guess that the actual cases are on a 1:10 ratio, so there's really 8M  cases.  Without all the lockdown/shelter in place measures, how many cases would we have?  Double that?  Triple?  More?  How much economic impact would that produce in-and-of-itself?  There are far too many variables at play to boil it down to the raw comparison of the number of uninfected-but-impacted vs infected/dead.

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 07:33:28 AM

EDIT: And as an observation, the "parachute" analogy is cute, but it's not accurate.  The course of the COVID-19 arc is not analogous to a skydive; it's not finite, it's not a freely-elected activity, it's not a solo sport, it's not a straight, measurable plot (you can calculate your time of decent and your point of impact almost exactly with the right initial parameters).  That's really just a cute way of pushing a desired outcome.

Oh, for cryin out loud, Bill!! Must you analytically over-analyze everything!?!?  :lol  It wasn't meant as a perfect 1:1 analogous comparison.  You got/get the gist of what the statement is trying to make.

Quote from: lordxizor on April 20, 2020, 08:21:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 19, 2020, 03:23:36 PM

I can't begin to describe how much my blood boils anytime someone tries to draw similarities to influenza ... "and we don't do anything crazy about that".  Sorry lorxizor, I just can't be any further away from your position on this.

Just wanted to point out that I wasn't speaking "from my position". I was just bringing up points for discussion. We clearly need to do something. And clearly this is a different animal than the flu. It's obviously quite a bit more contagious than the flu and is spreading much faster.

Gotchya.   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 09:14:06 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 20, 2020, 08:29:04 AM

I don't disagree with this statement.  But here's the "but" - taking action to solve the issues for the 'uninfected' people will increase the number of infected (and by extension, dead).  So the tipping point isn't an absolute, it's a sliding scale.  800k confirmed cases in US/Canada; 23M unemployed.  Let's guess that the actual cases are on a 1:10 ratio, so there's really 8M  cases.  Without all the lockdown/shelter in place measures, how many cases would we have?  Double that?  Triple?  More?  How much economic impact would that produce in-and-of-itself?  There are far too many variables at play to boil it down to the raw comparison of the number of uninfected-but-impacted vs infected/dead.

Which is fair, but I think that "too many variables" happens across the board.  I don't know that the multiplier is 2x or 3x.  Maybe it's 5x, maybe it's 0.5x.   We're not arguing here, but I think that generally, the narrative is going along a particular line and that line makes a lot of assumptions.  The nightly news last night (might have been Saturday) led with the tagline "COVID-19 deaths soar past 100,000".  No context, no nothing, just absolute fear about a number that most of us would consider "big" absent any other comparison or relativity.    Contrast that with the Allies lost 200,000 roughly in the battle of Normandy, roughly a month.  Knowingly, with foresight, and with the "math" completed and accepted that it was a "fair trade" (in quotes because that's a subjective term; I mean someone did the math, nothing more than that) for the CHANCE to overcome potentially being led by a government and/or a leader we collectively judged as unacceptable.   

Quote

Oh, for cryin out loud, Bill!! Must you analytically over-analyze everything!?!?  :lol  It wasn't meant as a perfect 1:1 analogous comparison.  You got/get the gist of what the statement is trying to make.

I'm sorry to be the buzzkill, but that was the point entirely: what WAS the statement?  It was a faulty analogy; the only statement at that point is "fuck whatever it actually right, or best for the most people, or is the majority choice in the situation, just do it my way!"  That analogy doesn't teach anything profound or illuminating; the "statement" pushes a narrative.

You note I'm "over-analyzing"; I would offer that I'm just saying analyze it something more than 'zero'.   I hardly consider that "over-analyzing", and if it is, maybe we need a little more of that.

Here's another cute analogy: "The curve is flattening, but we've got to keep the restrictions on!" = "The steak is cooked, but we've got to keep the meat on the grill!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 20, 2020, 09:23:29 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/T2N17M5k/FB-IMG-1587395994198.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 20, 2020, 09:33:13 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 09:14:06 AM

Here's another cute analogy: "The curve is flattening, but we've got to keep the restrictions on!" = "The steak is cooked, but we've got to keep the meat on the grill!"

As long as you turn the gas/heat off, absolutely.  A good chef always let's their meat rest before serving it.

But it's a flawed analogy because... aww, fuckit.  Actually I'll sum it up like this.

COVID desired outcome - fewer cases; healthy economy.  Action... stay the course, keep reducing cases; don't risk a relapse without a plan.
Skydiving desired outcome - land safely; remain alive.  Action ... stay the course, keep the fucking parachute on; don't accelerate to the ground.
BBQ desired outcome - tasty food.  Action.. take that meat off the grill while it's still got some red/pink on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 20, 2020, 09:48:49 AM

Agree with jingle's last couple posts.  And especially the "without a plan."  Just going back to normal without a plan is just going to cause the curve to unflatten.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 10:02:06 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 20, 2020, 09:33:13 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 09:14:06 AM

Here's another cute analogy: "The curve is flattening, but we've got to keep the restrictions on!" = "The steak is cooked, but we've got to keep the meat on the grill!"

As long as you turn the gas/heat off, absolutely.  A good chef always let's their meat rest before serving it.

But it's a flawed analogy because... aww, fuckit.  Actually I'll sum it up like this.

COVID desired outcome - fewer cases; healthy economy.  Action... stay the course, keep reducing cases; don't risk a relapse without a plan.
Skydiving desired outcome - land safely; remain alive.  Action ... stay the course, keep the fucking parachute on; don't accelerate to the ground.
BBQ desired outcome - tasty food.  Action.. take that meat off the grill while it's still got some red/pink on it.

The point wasn't the analogy itself.  You're right it's flawed; glaringly so. BOTH are.  That's the point.   

I think the real issue here is that there's multiple courses of action, based in large part on one's prioritization of the various variables.  As is increasingly the case in America (and I say that only because I can only speak for America with any confidence) is that there is a LOT of judgment in media and elsewhere about how various people prioritize.  I don't know if it's a function of social media or what, but most of the problems I see stem from an abiding intolerance to the fact that other people may prioritize things differently.  We've turned into a black and white, twitter-quip society, where there is no space, no INTEREST in "analyzing".  I don't mean to be critical of you, Chad, so please take this in the spirit it's intended (the underlying point) not as a dig at you, but you criticized me for "over-analyzing", and really, "over-analyzing" was in fact, just SOME analysis to begin with.  The counter argument implied that the way to take that was on it's face, with NO analysis.  I think that's hurting us, frankly.

I care about life.  I am devoutly anti-death penalty, and do not believe any one person has the moral right to knowingly and with intent extinguish another's life.   I make personal rationalizations for self-defense and warfare, but I am up front with the notion that they are rationalizations.  Having said that, I do not believe "one death is too many" is an applicable standard for a planet of 7.3 billion people.   I agree with the restrictions put into place, and I have largely done my part to do what is asked of me (I say "largely" to be humble; I'm not sure I've done ANYTHING that knowingly and meaningfully violates the protocols).   What I don't like is the derision that seems to follow when someone suggests that perhaps there was a different, less restrictive way of going about this.

COVID-19 is wildly different than flu or car-driving, that's obvious.  But one thing that is similar (and what I think, deep down, people like Dr. Phil were going for) is that in ALL cases of "harm", a calculus is done.  Maybe not by each of us individually, but it IS done.  Given no other variables, and no other concerns, we COULD reduce flu deaths and car accident deaths to zero.  We COULD.  Make every key and starter require a breath test, and confirmation by another person, who will drive with you at all times to make sure you're competent for the duration of the journey.  Limit top speeds to 25 miles per hour at all times, and maintain a cushion of at least 35 feet from all other vehicles at all times (to be enforced by a 125bB claxon warning that sounds when that perimeter is breached).   You get the point; someone somewhere did a calculus that this is not necessary, and that "one death is too many" is not the standard we will use.  That should be the debate here, but it's not.  If there are dissenting views, they seemingly are immediately dispensed with on ad hominem grounds.  That's disappointing to someone who sees the value of analysis as a way of making sure that the needs of the entire population is being met, not just the loudest, best armed, or most politically correct.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 20, 2020, 10:16:21 AM

We could reduce car accidents by keeping everyone home. I haven’t seen or heard of an accident in 3 weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2020, 10:18:06 AM

Hey, don't know if this is the right spot or not, but... anyone take this opportunity to (over-)analyze (sorry Chad, couldn't resist!) their lives and realize what things they could or could not do without?

There is far more I realize that I can do without than otherwise, but...

I can do without:
- crappy food; I've become much too tolerant in what I accept as "good food", especially when eating out;
- sports.   Talk to me when football season is on, but other than Sunday NASCAR (which is less about the race itself than the notion that "it's Sunday, have a drink, watch the race, and relax before work tomorrow") I miss zero sport.
- Cable news.  I've had to turn off the cable news entirely.  I don't have a TV on anymore, and instead play music during the day. I miss NOTHING about it.  I am regressing to my childhood; I put on the local news at 5:00 like my dad did, and I'll (occasionally) put on the news at 10:00 or 11:00 for the weather.  I'm more apt to tape it and fast-forward to Kyle Hanrahan or Rachel Frank (our local weatherpeople) and delete the rest.   
- Other people.  I've gone out about four times now since the start of the lockdown and people are just so fucking inconsiderate it makes me want to scream. I'm at Home Depot to get wire (computer cable I ran so I can relocate my router/modem) and I'm standing there, mask on, gloves on, and some douchebag walks up and stands like 2 feet from me perusing the wire.  In my head I'm screaming "SOCIAL DISTANCING, MOTHERFUCKER!" (though I just walked to the end of the aisle to look at other things).  People like that are why we have this problem to begin with.   I want to get a stamp that says "Tend Your Own Fucking Garden" and stamp them on the forehead, but I don't want to risk jail, and of course, they DO have the right to prioritize their safety like the rest of us.

Things I can't do without:
- my kids/family.  I've not gotten bored or annoyed by them once; the dogs are a different story, but we've found ways to bond in these trying times (my daughter bought a poster with 100 movies "you must see" and we're pulling a random number each night and watching that movie.  We're in about 10 films so far, though we haven't really been "tested"yet. 
- an occasional night out with the boys.  It's recharging and relaxing to just go and sit and have a beer with the people I've known for the entirety of my adult life.  No explaining necessary, no need for backstory, they were there for most of it, and it's refreshing to just experience human company with little if any judgment or anxiety.
- good food; I take comfort in the notion of a well-cooked, well-thought out meal.  I don't get them much because I suck as a cook, but if and when we do get back out there, I'm going to be more selective of my eating, that's for sure.
- a haircut.  My hair - while still not long, is longer than it's been in 20 years, and it's annnoying AF.  It's too long to be stylish, but not long enough to be stylish, so I'm in that in-between state where I look like that creepy guy with the basement lab in every episode of The Blacklist.
- music.  Nuff said.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 20, 2020, 10:43:58 AM

Do without:

* I have gradually tuned out sports over the past 15+ years but this does solidify for me how little interest it holds for me. I miss the Masters, because it is awesome and a cool way to mark the arrival of Spring. But otherwise I haven't cared about or missed anything.

* Other people as well, though not because they can be jerks. I just don't need that much human interaction.

* My wife teaching from home while I am home as well. She is not tech savvy at all and I have to answer some damn question every half an hour about her Google Classroom or something.

* Working. I don't want it, and I don't like it. Unfortunately, I need it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 20, 2020, 11:24:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 17, 2020, 01:48:56 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 17, 2020, 12:45:45 PM

Got my stimulus check. Not sure how, since all the articles I read essentially said I wouldn't get mine until late June, early July.

Anyway, I guess Illinois is going to announce the shutdown of all schools for the rest of the academic year today. Not a surprise, really. Still fighting with my sons district over his situation. Thankfully, his psychiatrist has been strong arming them and they are finally starting to buckle and grant provisions for his autisim/ADHD.

We'll get through it, and it's not like we're just sitting on our hands waiting for something to change, but as a general observation, my step-son is really suffering from this.  His anxiety is steadily growing, his focus is steadily decreasing...   hard to watch.

My son's psychiatrist got him an emergency 504 to get him through this e-learning mess. All of a sudden, the principal and teachers are talking to my wife and giving all of these suggestions and alternatives to help get him through this.

Told ya she (the psychiatrist) would kick some butts. She sent them a detailed history of his care and outlined recent issues outside of the whole Covid thing. Finally starting to make some headway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 20, 2020, 12:02:41 PM

That's awesome Professor.

To Bill's longer post, it's all good pal.  I'm totally cool with you being you - as frustrating as it is sometimes!  :biggrin:

Can't live without.
Fresh air and sunshine.  I'm so grateful we have property, and can get out side just for the sake of being outside (weather permitting).
Wife and kids.  That's a given
Working out.  It's a passion for me at the moment, keeps my mind sane
DTF.  Seriously, virtually (hah, pun intended) all of my best friends are here.
Music.  Been the one constant good thing in my life since I was 14.

Can live without.
One-topic news cycle.  Seriously, is there no other news going on in the world.
Social Media as a news outlet.  FB has it's benefits, but not as a news outlet.  Twitter I still can't figure out what it's good for.  Instagram even less so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 20, 2020, 02:18:02 PM

Our daughter goes to college in Virginia, but in January she went to Japan for part of her program, then came back in March when things started shutting down and they brought all the students back.  In January, we flew down there so see her before she went to Japan, and we drove her car back up here, so it wouldn't be sitting in the parking lot for three months.  I personally didn't see the problem leaving it there, but my wife seemed to feel that something could happen to it.  Whatever.  The original plan was for her to come here from Japan, visit a while, then drive her car back to Virginia.  But when they brought the students "home", she went back to Virginia because that's where she flew out from.

So she's been there in Virginia with no car, which hasn't really been a problem since they're locked down there as well.  But eventually she'll need to get out and about, plus my wife misses her, so this Saturday she's flying here to visit.  She'll stay for six weeks, then she and my wife will drive the car back down to Virginia (two-day girls' road trip, yay) and a day after that, my wife will fly back.

I really don't think they understand the concept of a quarrantine, and I have been unsuccessful at conveying it to them.  She's been back for a month now and shows no symptoms.  Great.  That doesn't mean she won't pick it up on the plane, or anywhere in between there and here.  And with the new studies showing how many people can be asymptomatic carriers, there's now the very real possibility that she's a carrier and will come here and infect us all.

I guess my point is that I thought the latest testing results were a good thing overall, but that's based on people following quarrantine.  Now I'm scared again, but I guess I'll just wash my hands a lot while she's here, because she's my daughter and she's coming home.  Wish me luck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 20, 2020, 02:47:09 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 20, 2020, 02:18:02 PM

Our daughter goes to college in Virginia, but in January she went to Japan for part of her program, then came back in March when things started shutting down and they brought all the students back.  In January, we flew down there so see her before she went to Japan, and we drove her car back up here, so it wouldn't be sitting in the parking lot for three months.  I personally didn't see the problem leaving it there, but my wife seemed to feel that something could happen to it.  Whatever.  The original plan was for her to come here from Japan, visit a while, then drive her car back to Virginia.  But when they brought the students "home", she went back to Virginia because that's where she flew out from.

So she's been there in Virginia with no car, which hasn't really been a problem since they're locked down there as well.  But eventually she'll need to get out and about, plus my wife misses her, so this Saturday she's flying here to visit.  She'll stay for six weeks, then she and my wife will drive the car back down to Virginia (two-day girls' road trip, yay) and a day after that, my wife will fly back.

I really don't think they understand the concept of a quarrantine, and I have been unsuccessful at conveying it to them.  She's been back for a month now and shows no symptoms.  Great.  That doesn't mean she won't pick it up on the plane, or anywhere in between there and here.  And with the new studies showing how many people can be asymptomatic carriers, there's now the very real possibility that she's a carrier and will come here and infect us all.

I guess my point is that I thought the latest testing results were a good thing overall, but that's based on people following quarrantine.  Now I'm scared again, but I guess I'll just wash my hands a lot while she's here, because she's my daughter and she's coming home.  Wish me luck.

I feel ya. My stepson was furloughed a couple of weeks back and wanted to come see us and we flat out said no. Bad idea! He lives in Dallas and he is a higher risk for infection (even asymptomatic) than we are here. In fact, he went for a motorcycle ride with his friends a week ago and I really doubt they followed the socially distancing recommendations. Our main concern is my in-laws who are around 85+ years old.

Good luck brutha!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 20, 2020, 04:45:07 PM

I would make an exception for a son or daughter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on April 20, 2020, 05:12:22 PM

With Governors planning to phase in reopening, what is your opinion on dining in and possible restrictions? The wife suggested letting dine in resume at 50% of capacity, but no way you could enforce that except on a spot check basis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 20, 2020, 05:48:42 PM

Quote from: mike099 on April 20, 2020, 05:12:22 PM

With Governors planning to phase in reopening, what is your opinion on dining in and possible restrictions? The wife suggested letting dine in resume at 50% of capacity, but no way you could enforce that except on a spot check basis.

I think we are all in uncharted territory.  If my state lifted restrictions today, I'd not be chancing going to dine in at a restaurant under any circumstances.  Talk to me mid-May and I might say something different.  But that is the rub.  Everyone is going to have their own comfort level.  I've heard dine-in restaurants will have to enforce the 6 foot social distancing rule.  How does one do that in a bathroom washing at the sink or standing at the urinal?  Who will be cleaning the bathrooms in between each patron?  It will be interesting to see.

Didn't know if anyone caught the story of a "30 something" Ironman athlete who nearly died of COVID-19 in Minnesota?  And those ECMO survival rates I'd never heard before.  Scary AF. 

https://m.startribune.com/minnesota-man-is-an-ironman-covid-19-nearly-killed-him/569761222/?fbclid=IwAR1S0Y2Ovv9TFesDyerTByWU6aVPtJlJA1mlZtQB8ieyYmLr2fgPOz9ZDEM

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 20, 2020, 06:07:26 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 20, 2020, 04:45:07 PM

I would make an exception for a son or daughter.

Yeah, I love her and would love to see her, too.  I'm making the exception for her, and I'm doing it for my wife, who went ahead and booked everything while I thought we were still discussing it, and who I'm not going to talk out of it anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on April 21, 2020, 01:05:56 AM

The Countries that took the threat seriously, got the lockdowns in place early, got their medical centres prepared have suffered less.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 21, 2020, 06:25:24 AM

Covid sucker punched the oil industry. I'll wager none of us ever
see oil at -$37 A barrel again. Tough news for some, like my step-son
who captain's a boat that supplies oil rigs. 5 kids and a new house.
He'll be getting the lay-off call soon.

But as with all such thjngs, others will benefit over the short term.
Losers and winners. It's a roll of the dice of fate right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 21, 2020, 06:44:12 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on April 21, 2020, 01:05:56 AM

The Countries that took the threat seriously, got the lockdowns in place early, got their medical centres prepared have suffered less.

Yes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 21, 2020, 07:42:15 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 21, 2020, 06:44:12 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on April 21, 2020, 01:05:56 AM

The Countries that took the threat seriously, got the lockdowns in place early, got their medical centres prepared have suffered less.

Yes.

Is that provable?  Just asking...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 21, 2020, 07:46:23 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 21, 2020, 07:42:15 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 21, 2020, 06:44:12 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on April 21, 2020, 01:05:56 AM

The Countries that took the threat seriously, got the lockdowns in place early, got their medical centres prepared have suffered less.

Yes.

Is that provable?  Just asking...

Yes. That information is not hard to find.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 21, 2020, 07:54:13 AM

Have a go over here:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/geographical-distribution-2019-ncov-cases

---

and probably tons of other places as well

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 08:02:49 AM

Well, now that oil is going negative, does that mean that glaciers will start going positive?  :lol :2metal:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 21, 2020, 08:29:36 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 21, 2020, 06:25:24 AM

It's a roll of the dice of fate right now.

Definitely feels that way with many things in life right now.

I came into work today, first time in two weeks as work has built up enough to justify a trip to our data center to fix everything.  Before being allowed in the building I got a temperature scan which is a first.  I read at 95F   :lol I guess there's no issue if you are too cold.  Security got a laugh at that.  Nice start to the day, I'm cold blooded.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 21, 2020, 09:31:37 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 21, 2020, 07:46:23 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 21, 2020, 07:42:15 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 21, 2020, 06:44:12 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on April 21, 2020, 01:05:56 AM

The Countries that took the threat seriously, got the lockdowns in place early, got their medical centres prepared have suffered less.

Yes.

Is that provable?  Just asking...

Yes. That information is not hard to find.

AND

Quote from: Elite on April 21, 2020, 07:54:13 AM

Have a go over here:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/geographical-distribution-2019-ncov-cases

---

and probably tons of other places as well

Well, that gives us raw data for cases/deaths.  That doesn't in and of itself "prove" the assertion (I can't say I read every single article on the John's Hopkins page).   Who acted fast?  Did the United States? I'm sure there are many people here and elsewhere not named "Trump" that will tell you our speed and our thoroughness of response has been lackluster.  But even though we're third most populous country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations)the), we're only 16th in the world in cases and 14th in the world in deaths (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) (adjusted for population). 

Germany may prove the assertion; Spain, France, and Germany took similar steps on a similar time-line, until Angela Merkel broke from that and took harsher measures (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/17/coronavirus-how-countries-across-globe-responding-covid-19/5065867002/); their cases/deaths are 25/22 in the world (adjusted for pop.; same cite as above), whereas Spain and France are 6/4 and 18/6, respectively (adj. for pop.; same cite).   BUT that data is inconclusive; why does France have a disproportionately high number of deaths?  And how are Germany's numbers impacted not by "speed" of response but by the fact that their healthcare capacity is already higher than their neighbors and they are a primary source for the continent's ventilators (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/17/coronavirus-how-countries-across-globe-responding-covid-19/5065867002/)?

Sweden, Denmark and Norway further cloud the issue.   Denmark and Norway took harsher measures sooner than Sweden, who has relied on a more voluntary program (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/17/coronavirus-how-countries-across-globe-responding-covid-19/5065867002/).  They are 32, 33, and 30 in the world in cases (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) (respectively, adj. for pop.).  So that shows a similar rate of spread, refuting the "speed" argument.  However, there is wide disparity on deaths; 10, 20 and 28 (respectively, adj. for pop; same cite as above).   So while Sweden has been more lax, and has more deaths, Denmark and Finland, despite similar responses (and similar cases), do not have a similar mortality rate (Denmark's numbers are double that of Norway, adjusted for population (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).)

And there's the problem of inconsistent/unreliable data (North Korea, China), as well as the difference in response from more authoritarian governments and less affluent governments (https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/why-15-countries-still-haven-t-reported-any-cases-covid-19).

The data has to guide us. 

EDIT:  It's also necessary to point out this is a snapshot in time and could change, though the U.S. world ranking has been somewhat consistent over the past couple weeks.  With so many variables in play, it's not fair to draw conclusions on the relative worth of those systems by this data alone, but it is interesting to note that the mortality rate (I used death/cases) in Sweden is about double that of the U.S., Denmark's is roughly the same as the U.S. (slightly less) and Norway's is about half (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).  These are countries that are often cited as potential examples of what the U.S. healthcare system could be. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 21, 2020, 10:17:15 AM

This doesn't go to the point being made above and is separate, but since we're on the topic of data:  It bugs me that recoveries are being underreported.  I mean, I get why.  One reason is probably that, as in most cases, the health case system is (rightly) focusing on those in need, so those who are no longer a concern because they are better are no longer a concern.  Another is that those who stop needing treatment often go back about their lives rather than reporting in that they are "all clear."  But it bugs me in that it is skewing the data.  Those who have been reporting have been doing a decent job of not getting too tied up in the raw data.  But I have seen many who do not know how to process it drawing wrong conclusions.  For instance, the death rate in the U.S. is 37%.  21% worldwide.  But those numbers are several multiples too high because cases aren't registering as "closed."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 21, 2020, 10:21:23 AM

Data is a huge problem.  We don't have close to any idea how many people have been infected because testing has been such a shit show.  We might get a better idea when the antibody tests roll out but I've been hearing some rumors in the medical community that these tests may not be all that accurate.  It would be the worst possible thing to tell someone they have antibodies from COVID and that they are "all clear" to go out and about their lives only to find out it was a false positive test.  :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 21, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Does having had the virus once (as shown by the presence of the antibodies in your blood) make you immune from now on?  I thought that they still weren't really sure about that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2020, 10:38:15 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 21, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Does having had the virus once (as shown by the presence of the antibodies in your blood) make you immune from now on?  I thought that they still weren't really sure about that.

I read that, in Korea at least, people are getting it a second time. But I’ve also heard that’s contested.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 21, 2020, 10:43:39 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 21, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Does having had the virus once (as shown by the presence of the antibodies in your blood) make you immune from now on?  I thought that they still weren't really sure about that.

Good question.  And I think we don't know a lot about immunity.  Even if it does make you immune, we don't know for how long.

As to Adami's point about getting the virus twice - that is hotly debated.  It seems that people retain the virus for long periods of time.  So if someone out there is tested a second time and is positive - is that a new case or is it the original case still showing up weeks later?

So much we don't know yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 10:45:46 AM

Gathering data takes time.  Gathering accurate data takes even more time.  We can't trust the numbers right now because it's just too soon.

Quote from: Orbert on April 21, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Does having had the virus once (as shown by the presence of the antibodies in your blood) make you immune from now on?  I thought that they still weren't really sure about that.

I think it all depends on the person.  I've heard that certain blood types may be immune, but that's just one variable out of many.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on April 21, 2020, 11:45:35 AM

My question is what has changed to drive opening the economy besides the obvious of getting people back to work? There is no vaccine. There is no proof (to my knowledge) that the curve in the US is flattening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 21, 2020, 11:49:56 AM

Nothing, except for the fringe element of society that enjoys giving the middle finger to government got a snake up their ass and saw an opportunity to act on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 21, 2020, 11:50:51 AM

Finland's R0 index is estimated to be at 1 or under, meaning one infected person infects at most one other person by average. This means Finland has passed the peak of the epidemic wave if prevention measures remain effective.

Our death toll is currently at 141 with about 4000 confirmed cases. It rose by 43 today because previously unreported deaths from eldercare were added retroactively.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 21, 2020, 11:54:07 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 21, 2020, 11:49:56 AM

Nothing, except for the fringe element of society that enjoys giving the middle finger to government got a snake up their ass and saw an opportunity to act on it.

Yay, let’s act on behalf of those dimwits and fuck everyone else up then.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 21, 2020, 12:25:35 PM

Quote from: Elite on April 21, 2020, 11:54:07 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 21, 2020, 11:49:56 AM

Nothing, except for the fringe element of society that enjoys giving the middle finger to government got a snake up their ass and saw an opportunity to act on it.

Yay, let’s act on behalf of those dimwits and fuck everyone else up then.

It's what Trump wants and governors in the southern states line up to fellate Trump any opportunity they have.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 21, 2020, 12:55:07 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 21, 2020, 11:49:56 AM

Nothing, except for the fringe element of society that enjoys giving the middle finger to government got a snake up their ass and saw an opportunity to act on it.

Hey, those are my people!  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 21, 2020, 01:43:56 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 21, 2020, 10:21:23 AM

Data is a huge problem.  We don't have close to any idea how many people have been infected because testing has been such a shit show. 

This right here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This didn't have to happen. This "great" country utterly and totally screwed up the response to this pandemic. I'll say it again, this virus was sequenced in late January meaning we had the ability to start manufacturing tests. But we didn't. We wasted a whole month while we were assured that the virus wasn't a problem and that it would miraculously go away once the warm weather comes. We've known about this virus since December and our leaders sat on their asses and did nothing but of course they could do nothing, BECAUSE THEY GOT RID OF THE PANDEMIC RESPONSE TEAM!!!!

I'm pissed and for those of you not working, I hope you're equally as pissed!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 21, 2020, 01:57:09 PM

Apparently the SBA website was hacked and 8K people/businesses applying for loans have an additional worry. Dandy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 03:36:34 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 21, 2020, 01:43:56 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 21, 2020, 10:21:23 AM

Data is a huge problem.  We don't have close to any idea how many people have been infected because testing has been such a shit show. 

This right here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This didn't have to happen. This "great" country utterly and totally screwed up the response to this pandemic. I'll say it again, this virus was sequenced in late January meaning we had the ability to start manufacturing tests. But we didn't. We wasted a whole month while we were assured that the virus wasn't a problem and that it would miraculously go away once the warm weather comes. We've known about this virus since December and our leaders sat on their asses and did nothing but of course they could do nothing, BECAUSE THEY GOT RID OF THE PANDEMIC RESPONSE TEAM!!!!

I'm pissed and for those of you not working, I hope you're equally as pissed!

Where exactly are you getting all this information about who knew what and when?  In all fairness, nothing like this has ever happened before and not everything about the seriousness of the virus was known early on.  Yeah, maybe we were unprepared, but I don't believe that once the magnitude of this was known and understood, that they just sat around and did nothing.  We are far ahead of the testing curve than any other country and the only thing that's hurting us right now is a lack of supplies.  We were behind the 8-ball from the very start and I think we've made tremendous progress.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 21, 2020, 03:44:53 PM

Actually, brutal pandemics like this have happened before, more than once, and we've seen several pandemics break out in the last 20 years alone - not on the level of shutting down global economies, but of far deadly diseases than COVID-19.

We should always always always be as prepared as humanly possible - and then some - for something like this especially in the age where more or less the entire world is interconnected. And we never should have eliminated the pandemic response team (no matter who the president is, or the politics of it). "Safety first" and whatnot...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 21, 2020, 03:49:33 PM

Governments are natually slow to react, no matter who is in office.  And hind sight is always 2020.  I just don't think "might have been" is very productive.

I'm thrilled for those who have stayed well, or who have recovered, and I mourn for those who died and their families who lost loved ones.  And I honor the heros who have selflessly donated their time and talents for their fellows.  I like to keep my perspective human.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 21, 2020, 03:50:52 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 03:36:34 PM

In all fairness, nothing like this has ever happened before and not everything about the seriousness of the virus was known early on. Yeah, maybe we were unprepared, but I don't believe that once the magnitude of this was known and understood, that they just sat around and did nothing. 

I have reason to believe otherwise.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 03:36:34 PM

We are far ahead of the testing curve than any other country and the only thing that's hurting us right now is a lack of supplies. We were behind the 8-ball from the very start and I think we've made tremendous progress.

This 'lack of supplies' you speak of is partly due to very bad preparations. You even say you were behind from the start, how does that align with the first quoted part above? Furthermore, what does 'ahead of the testing curve' even mean? The USA is, at this moment of typing, also 'ahead' when you rank 'most people dying from Covid-19', both new deaths daily and in total, according to the official numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 04:35:17 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 21, 2020, 03:44:53 PM

Actually, brutal pandemics like this have happened before, more than once, and we've seen several pandemics break out in the last 20 years alone - not on the level of shutting down global economies, but of far deadly diseases than COVID-19.

We should always always always be as prepared as humanly possible - and then some - for something like this especially in the age where more or less the entire world is interconnected. And we never should have eliminated the pandemic response team (no matter who the president is, or the politics of it). "Safety first" and whatnot...

No other virus has been this contagious and caused this much panic or damage to the world markets.  Especially when you consider what our population levels are now days.  Our government wasn't prepared for something of this magnitude.  That's the reality.  We are beyond what could've or should've been done.

Quote from: Elite on April 21, 2020, 03:50:52 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 03:36:34 PM

In all fairness, nothing like this has ever happened before and not everything about the seriousness of the virus was known early on. Yeah, maybe we were unprepared, but I don't believe that once the magnitude of this was known and understood, that they just sat around and did nothing. 

I have reason to believe otherwise.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 03:36:34 PM

We are far ahead of the testing curve than any other country and the only thing that's hurting us right now is a lack of supplies. We were behind the 8-ball from the very start and I think we've made tremendous progress.

This 'lack of supplies' you speak of is partly due to very bad preparations. You even say you were behind from the start, how does that align with the first quoted part above? Furthermore, what does 'ahead of the testing curve' even mean? The USA is, at this moment of typing, also 'ahead' when you rank 'most people dying from Covid-19', both new deaths daily and in total, according to the official numbers.

The supply chain has been disrupted if you know how supply chains work.  It doesn't matter how prepared you are.  Nobody can predict what will be needed and when.  I don't know what you mean by "how does that align with the first quoted part above."  I said we (as in the USA) were unprepared and behind the 8-ball from the start.  Nobody in the world could've been prepared for something of this magnitude.  One more thing.  Ahead of the testing curve means that we have tested far more people and have reported far more cases and deaths as a result.  Other countries don't have those numbers because they are not up to speed on testing and they are most likely not able to report deaths accurately.  Make sense?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 21, 2020, 04:51:29 PM

We could learn many lessons from how South Korea handled this outbreak.  https://www.businessinsider.com/how-south-korea-controlled-its-coronavirus-outbreak-2020-4

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 21, 2020, 05:00:21 PM

my understanding is that counterintuitive as it may be, if Covid-19 was deadlier it  would be easier to contain.   If something is virulent enough to infect and kill someone in a matter of days then it's actually easier to pinpoint who was at risk of being infected by that person.    This sneaky fucker takes its sweet time in letting its presence known (if at all) and throws everything out of whack.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 21, 2020, 05:03:33 PM

So my mother has had a rash for almost a month now that won't go away.  The last couple days she has now had a fever on and off.  Turns out there's been some association with rashes and coronavirus https://nypost.com/2020/04/21/skin-rashes-possible-symptom-of-coronavirus-experts-say/ (https://nypost.com/2020/04/21/skin-rashes-possible-symptom-of-coronavirus-experts-say/)  My mom has been confirmed to get a test tomorrow.  Fucking scary if this is legit and the virus manifesting itself in different ways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 21, 2020, 05:15:29 PM

Viral rashes are common - so it isn't surprising but yeah, freaky how we learn about new symptoms as time goes on.  Pink eye, loss of taste and smell, diarrhea, now rashes.

Cram, keep in mind that rashes are very common.  And what did we all start doing a few weeks to a month ago?  We started disinfecting like crazy.  I know I'm almost out of Clorox wipes and I started with 6 full tubs.  All that on top of a very active allergy season already and well, people are going to have rashes.

I know it's hard not to worry.  I had a bout of shingles at the end of March and it freaked me out because that meant my immune system was already taxed.  And thankfully, I'd had it before so I knew what it was and what to do immediately.  But had it been my first go round with shingles, I'd have been freaking out because I had a mild fever and malaise and aches.  That was not a fun week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 21, 2020, 05:18:54 PM

I personally think my mother is a bit paranoid because of my grandma passing and the rash not going away plus now fevers.  I don't blame her as I got a bit paranoid with much less symptoms a while ago.  I'm a bit surprised she got approved for a test given she hasn't left the house in a month so as no known contact with an infected person but that rash has been around for about the same amount of time and she did get meds for it but not changing anything so maybe there is a good reason for her to be approved for a test.  Who knows, and that's kind of how I personally feel with a lot of this.  Who the hell knows.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 21, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

All that your family has gone through, and now...how many sleepless nights before the results will be in? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 21, 2020, 08:49:31 PM

Sorry to derail, but I'd typed this all up before DragonAttack's post


Update on David (guitarist in Orbert's band) and his wife Nancy

David was successfully moved to a long-term care hospital yesterday in order to improve his pulmonary strength. The plan right now is keep him there for 2-4 weeks before he, hopefully, is moved to the rehab hospital to assess and address the impacts of the stroke. David had a tracheostomy and feeding tube put in on Thursday, and he seems to be doing well on that.

Nancy is officially COVID negative as of yesterday, but she is still on the ventilator. She successfully got the trach today with the hope to move her to a long term hospital sometime in the near future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 21, 2020, 10:14:28 PM

Great news Orbert!

Cram, I hope your mom is negative.  I don't blame her at all for being paranoid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 22, 2020, 02:12:54 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2020, 04:35:17 PM

Ahead of the testing curve means that we have tested far more people and have reported far more cases and deaths as a result.  Other countries don't have those numbers because they are not up to speed on testing and they are most likely not able to report deaths accurately.  Make sense?

Deaths are much, much easier to report than the amount of actual cases. It tends to be a quite accurate statistic because those who died usually have been confirmed cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 06:44:51 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 21, 2020, 01:43:56 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 21, 2020, 10:21:23 AM

Data is a huge problem.  We don't have close to any idea how many people have been infected because testing has been such a shit show. 

This right here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This didn't have to happen. This "great" country utterly and totally screwed up the response to this pandemic. I'll say it again, this virus was sequenced in late January meaning we had the ability to start manufacturing tests. But we didn't. We wasted a whole month while we were assured that the virus wasn't a problem and that it would miraculously go away once the warm weather comes. We've known about this virus since December and our leaders sat on their asses and did nothing but of course they could do nothing, BECAUSE THEY GOT RID OF THE PANDEMIC RESPONSE TEAM!!!!

I'm pissed and for those of you not working, I hope you're equally as pissed!

Of course Trump bears some blame.   But article after article - even the ones with a clear agenda to attack the President - concede that it's a multi-faceted problem with multiple points of failure.   Just like many accidents - like plane crashes for instance - this massive failure isn't due to one inflection point of failure, but rather a sequence of missteps that ultimately lead, like a staircase, to the inevitable conclusion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/contamination-at-cdc-lab-delayed-rollout-of-coronavirus-tests/2020/04/18/fd7d3824-7139-11ea-aa80-c2470c6b2034_story.html
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/491326-covid-19-testing-missteps-illustrate-failures-of-the-regulatory-state
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/us/testing-coronavirus-pandemic.html
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/491501-covid-19-testing-failure-falls-primarily-on-trump-administration
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/03/why-united-states-coronavirus-testing-failures-were-inevitable/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2020/04/03/coronavirus-cdc-test-kits-public-health-labs/?arc404=true

Look, if we want to make Trump a pariah for this, go for it.  But Trump was not here 20-years ago, and will not be here in 6 mos./54 mos., one way or the other.   Removing him doesn't remove all or even a significant part of the problem.  Sure, I'm fine with the "buck stops here" approach, but increasingly, the ANALYSIS BUCK seems to be stopping with Trump too.  We need a comprehensive scrub of the entire process, not a focus on Trump, if we're going to make sure this doesn't happen again. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 06:48:57 AM

Stadler, again, thank you. I am not pro or against Trump, but NO president would have been prepared for this. There would have been missteps along the way in any era. I believe that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 22, 2020, 06:54:37 AM

Stadler and TAC.

Of course. No administration is perfect. Except, that's exactly what the President is trying to sell us. Listen to him, he deflects responsibility at every opportunity. I don't think you'd see people spend so much time belaboring his role if he wasn't such a four-year-old about the entire mess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 07:02:30 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 22, 2020, 06:54:37 AM

Stadler and TAC.

Of course. No administration is perfect. Except, that's exactly what the President is trying to sell us. Listen to him, he deflects responsibility at every opportunity. I don't think you'd see people spend so much time belaboring his role if he wasn't such a four-year-old about the entire mess.

I know that. Trump, to me, has acted despicably. My comment was in no way a defense of how Trump has done, and if it came across that way, that was NOT my intent. This is my opinion, and not in anyway influenced by anything Trump has said.


My point was regardless of the occupant, I don't believe this would have been any different. Barack Obama could read the phone book to me, and I would be glued to it. But I think he would have also been clunky at the beginning, as would any president.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 06:48:57 AM

Stadler, again, thank you. I am not pro or against Trump, but NO president would have been prepared for this. There would have been missteps along the way in any era. I believe that.

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 22, 2020, 07:29:37 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

Look at the 'deaths' graph for Taiwan. Seriously. (Or any other graph there for that matter, compared to other countries). I know it's an island, way easier to contain, but this country took measures before anyone else did, and it shows.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/taiwan/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 07:31:19 AM

That's like one block in NYC.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2020, 07:31:55 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 07:02:30 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 22, 2020, 06:54:37 AM

Stadler and TAC.

Of course. No administration is perfect. Except, that's exactly what the President is trying to sell us. Listen to him, he deflects responsibility at every opportunity. I don't think you'd see people spend so much time belaboring his role if he wasn't such a four-year-old about the entire mess.

I know that. Trump, to me, has acted despicably. My comment was in no way a defense of how Trump has done, and if it came across that way, that was NOT my intent. This is my opinion, and not in anyway influenced by anything Trump has said.


My point was regardless of the occupant, I don't believe this would have been any different. Barack Obama could read the phone book to me, and I would be glued to it. But I think he would have also been clunky at the beginning, as would any president.

Since you mention Obama, research his response to the Ebola virus. Night and day difference and out of that came the pandemic response team that John Bolton got rid of.

Disaster Recovery preparedness is a choice and a learned skill. I've worked in it for 18 years. This administration was not prepared and it's obvious they didn't care about being prepared. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 07:43:39 AM

OK. sounds good. Any suggestions?

EDIT: I googled it and the 4th or 5th story down was this:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ebola-outbreak-response-from-obama-under-fire-by-critics/

"Every Ebola outbreak over the past 40 years has been stopped," said Monaco. "We know how to do this, and we will do it again."




I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion believe me. I said Obama, but I just as easily could've said Bush, Carter, Reagan, etc...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 07:57:31 AM

I've moved this over to the P/R Coronavirus thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:12:25 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 22, 2020, 06:54:37 AM

Stadler and TAC.

Of course. No administration is perfect. Except, that's exactly what the President is trying to sell us. Listen to him, he deflects responsibility at every opportunity. I don't think you'd see people spend so much time belaboring his role if he wasn't such a four-year-old about the entire mess.

I don't know if you're implying I'm being swayed by what he's telling us. I listen to him and believe him like I believe a used car salesman.  I despise Trump and want him gone as badly as anyone on this forum, I promise you.   But I'm a realist.  We were heading down this path (both pandemic response and divisive reality show politics) for over a decade.   My fear is not Trump; we're 7/8 of the way through Trump's term at this point.  My fear is what comes after.   No, it's not to the same degree, but you see Trump-ian tactics being adopted by politicians of both sides; that's not a sign that we've learned ANYTHING from this Administration.  Fox News is bad?  Okay, fine; but cable news ratings for BOTH partisan networks (all three, actually) are skyrocketing. We're WATCHING this shit; that's not a sign we've learned ANYTHING from this Administration.   Adam Schiff used his position to further his own goals and desires, lying in the process*; that's not a sign we've learned ANYTHING from this Administration.

If our forensic response to this pandemic is limited to "Trump eats ass and balls", we WILL encounter this again.  WE WILL.   Trump's actions and behaviors need to be a part of this review, but it CANNOT, in our hatred and anger, be the entirety of that review.  I can foresee the response now: "No one is saying that, Stads!"  Well, it sure seems like it.  I don't see any posts/screeds here about the bureacracy that has encumbered our agency/regulatory structure for decades.  I do see multiple posts specifically pointing out Trump's failed response, and that's all I can respond to.

* I've written about this extensively in other threads in the P/R section; need not resurrect that now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:14:52 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 06:48:57 AM

Stadler, again, thank you. I am not pro or against Trump, but NO president would have been prepared for this. There would have been missteps along the way in any era. I believe that.

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

WE.  That's the magic word, WE.  Trump, sure, but not JUST Trump.  Trump didn't contaminate the samples in the CDC lab, for example.   Trump didn't establish the agency/regulatory bureaucracy (I can assure you, when I was dealing with the EPA on a regular basis back in the '90's, it was alive and well; in my current role I deal with the FRA and FTA and it is festering there as well).   The articles have easily five or six other examples.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2020, 08:17:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:14:52 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 06:48:57 AM

Stadler, again, thank you. I am not pro or against Trump, but NO president would have been prepared for this. There would have been missteps along the way in any era. I believe that.

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

WE.  That's the magic word, WE.  Trump, sure, but not JUST Trump.  Trump didn't contaminate the samples in the CDC lab, for example.   Trump didn't establish the agency/regulatory bureaucracy (I can assure you, when I was dealing with the EPA on a regular basis back in the '90's, it was alive and well; in my current role I deal with the FRA and FTA and it is festering there as well).   The articles have easily five or six other examples.

Trump is the president of the United States of America. What his administration does, in the end, falls on him. Is literally 100% of everything that went wrong directly and solely Trump's fault? of course not. We're speaking broadly. And pointing out that things ALSO happened that weren't Trump's fault does not IN ANYWAY justify or excuse what he DID do. Which is what we're talking about. We can actually talk about Trump's missteps in a broad way without having to examine every single misstep by every single individual and place them on equal standing.


Edit: And again we're back in PR mode. I'm not gonna move my post there (way too lazy) but I'll stop responding in this thread about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:18:15 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 22, 2020, 07:29:37 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

Look at the 'deaths' graph for Taiwan. Seriously. (Or any other graph there for that matter, compared to other countries). I know it's an island, way easier to contain, but this country took measures before anyone else did, and it shows.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/taiwan/

Did you read my other post?   I gave examples of countries that acted fast and yet aren't showing the same results.  Vice versa, there are countries that didn't act as fast and yet have had success. It's one variable, an important variable, but not the ONLY variable.   For example, your throwaway "I know it's an island" is actually a very big factor, albeit one that can act both ways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 22, 2020, 08:19:42 AM

 :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 22, 2020, 08:22:01 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 21, 2020, 05:18:54 PM

I personally think my mother is a bit paranoid because of my grandma passing and the rash not going away plus now fevers.  I don't blame her as I got a bit paranoid with much less symptoms a while ago.  I'm a bit surprised she got approved for a test given she hasn't left the house in a month so as no known contact with an infected person but that rash has been around for about the same amount of time and she did get meds for it but not changing anything so maybe there is a good reason for her to be approved for a test.  Who knows, and that's kind of how I personally feel with a lot of this.  Who the hell knows.

Of course she'd be paranoid.  How could she not be?  I'm glad she's getting tested and each day it's easier to GET tested so there is at least some good news about that part.

We were talking about how the doctors keep finding new symptoms in this disease.  I stumbled across this article on "covid toes" yesterday:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/04/21/coronavirus-covid-toes-may-symptom-covid-19-young-people/2994930001/

Then I remembered my sister had this late last week.  Today she'll be on the phone with her podiatrist to see if she needs to be tested for covid.  She says her symptoms were exactly the same as in the article.  Strange times...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 08:23:05 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 08:17:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:14:52 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 06:48:57 AM

Stadler, again, thank you. I am not pro or against Trump, but NO president would have been prepared for this. There would have been missteps along the way in any era. I believe that.

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

WE.  That's the magic word, WE.  Trump, sure, but not JUST Trump.  Trump didn't contaminate the samples in the CDC lab, for example.   Trump didn't establish the agency/regulatory bureaucracy (I can assure you, when I was dealing with the EPA on a regular basis back in the '90's, it was alive and well; in my current role I deal with the FRA and FTA and it is festering there as well).   The articles have easily five or six other examples.

Trump is the president of the United States of America. What his administration does, in the end, falls on him. Is literally 100% of everything that went wrong directly and solely Trump's fault? of course not. We're speaking broadly. And pointing out that things ALSO happened that weren't Trump's fault does not IN ANYWAY justify or excuse what he DID do. Which is what we're talking about. We can actually talk about Trump's missteps in a broad way without having to examine every single misstep by every single individual and place them on equal standing.


Edit: And again we're back in PR mode. I'm not gonna move my post there (way too lazy) but I'll stop responding in this thread about it.

I did it for you, because I have already moved my posts over there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:23:46 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 08:17:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:14:52 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 06:48:57 AM

Stadler, again, thank you. I am not pro or against Trump, but NO president would have been prepared for this. There would have been missteps along the way in any era. I believe that.

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

WE.  That's the magic word, WE.  Trump, sure, but not JUST Trump.  Trump didn't contaminate the samples in the CDC lab, for example.   Trump didn't establish the agency/regulatory bureaucracy (I can assure you, when I was dealing with the EPA on a regular basis back in the '90's, it was alive and well; in my current role I deal with the FRA and FTA and it is festering there as well).   The articles have easily five or six other examples.

Trump is the president of the United States of America. What his administration does, in the end, falls on him. Is literally 100% of everything that went wrong directly and solely Trump's fault? of course not. We're speaking broadly. And pointing out that things ALSO happened that weren't Trump's fault does not IN ANYWAY justify or excuse what he DID do. Which is what we're talking about. We can actually talk about Trump's missteps in a broad way without having to examine every single misstep by every single individual and place them on equal standing.

C'mon.  I get the "the buck stops here" nonsense, but anyone who follows sports knows that it's a trope.   "Team does bad? Fire the coach."   Sure, hold him accountable.   I have zero problem with that.  But remove Trump and you STILL have the problems, and more importantly, you still have the deaths.   In other contexts - like the "do we reopen or not?" - the standard that many use is "one death is too many".  I disagree, but it's not an unreasonable, unfair standard.  Using that, "one death is too many", just removing the figurehead doesn't solve the problem.   

If we want to talk broadly about how badly Trump did here, fine.  But let's not pretend that it's anything other than just venting ire at a President we collectively DO NOT LIKE.  It's certainly not a SWAT analysis or root cause analysis or anything like that.  In other words, if we're going to just rant about Trump, have at it, it's a free country, but don't throw away your masks and gloves, and certainly don't plan any family reunions in the next couple months.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:27:34 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 08:23:05 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 08:17:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:14:52 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 06:48:57 AM

Stadler, again, thank you. I am not pro or against Trump, but NO president would have been prepared for this. There would have been missteps along the way in any era. I believe that.

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

WE.  That's the magic word, WE.  Trump, sure, but not JUST Trump.  Trump didn't contaminate the samples in the CDC lab, for example.   Trump didn't establish the agency/regulatory bureaucracy (I can assure you, when I was dealing with the EPA on a regular basis back in the '90's, it was alive and well; in my current role I deal with the FRA and FTA and it is festering there as well).   The articles have easily five or six other examples.

Trump is the president of the United States of America. What his administration does, in the end, falls on him. Is literally 100% of everything that went wrong directly and solely Trump's fault? of course not. We're speaking broadly. And pointing out that things ALSO happened that weren't Trump's fault does not IN ANYWAY justify or excuse what he DID do. Which is what we're talking about. We can actually talk about Trump's missteps in a broad way without having to examine every single misstep by every single individual and place them on equal standing.


Edit: And again we're back in PR mode. I'm not gonna move my post there (way too lazy) but I'll stop responding in this thread about it.

I did it for you, because I have already moved my posts over there.

And I will too, TAC.  I mean no disrespect.  I just hit reply.  I'll take it over there too now. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 22, 2020, 08:47:59 AM

Found out this morning a dude I went to college with died of it yesterday. The guy couldn't have been more than 32 years old(cancer survivor from a few years back). I feel for his wife, man. First off, he left her and two kids. The wife also went to my university, and I knew her boyfriend at the time. He died of a seizure in her dorm bathroom, and he was really good friends with the guy who ended up marrying her and dying of Corona.

Makes me feel kind of guilty that my life hasn't really been phased at all by this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 08:51:49 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 22, 2020, 08:47:59 AM

Found out this morning a dude I went to college with died of it yesterday. The guy couldn't have been more than 32 years old(cancer survivor from a few years back). I feel for his wife, man. First off, he left her and two kids. The wife also went to my university, and I knew her boyfriend at the time. He died of a seizure in her dorm bathroom, and he was really good friends with the guy who ended up marrying her and dying of Corona.

That is fucked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 22, 2020, 08:52:11 AM

That is really messed up. That poor woman and kids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on April 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM

Hi everyone! I have not posted in weeks because I've been laid off for weeks. I hope everyone is healthy physically and mentally. I just wanted to drop in and say hello. :heart

Just read what you wrote Chino. Sorry to hear that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:55 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2020, 07:31:55 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 07:02:30 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 22, 2020, 06:54:37 AM

Stadler and TAC.

Of course. No administration is perfect. Except, that's exactly what the President is trying to sell us. Listen to him, he deflects responsibility at every opportunity. I don't think you'd see people spend so much time belaboring his role if he wasn't such a four-year-old about the entire mess.

I know that. Trump, to me, has acted despicably. My comment was in no way a defense of how Trump has done, and if it came across that way, that was NOT my intent. This is my opinion, and not in anyway influenced by anything Trump has said.


My point was regardless of the occupant, I don't believe this would have been any different. Barack Obama could read the phone book to me, and I would be glued to it. But I think he would have also been clunky at the beginning, as would any president.

Since you mention Obama, research his response to the Ebola virus. Night and day difference and out of that came the pandemic response team that John Bolton got rid of.

Disaster Recovery preparedness is a choice and a learned skill. I've worked in it for 18 years. This administration was not prepared and it's obvious they didn't care about being prepared.

It depends on the disaster.  This is a disaster that no one has ever seen before.  You're comparing apples and oranges.  Ebola isn't nearly as contagious as Covid.  Almost everybody knows that.  As others have already said, no one could've been more prepared for this because it came out of nowhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 22, 2020, 09:25:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:55 AM

As others have already said, no one could've been more prepared for this because it came out of nowhere.

Yet the World Health Organization had worked on a blueprint priority diseases shortlist for years prior to this oubreak, and introduced Disease X in February 2018. This means pretty much exactly the kind of "possible unknown pathogen" the SARS-Cov2 virus is. It didn't come out of nowhere for experts in the field, but unfortunately this is the usual business when it comes to politics because it's not a "sexy" subject to talk about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 09:26:02 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 08:51:49 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 22, 2020, 08:47:59 AM

Found out this morning a dude I went to college with died of it yesterday. The guy couldn't have been more than 32 years old(cancer survivor from a few years back). I feel for his wife, man. First off, he left her and two kids. The wife also went to my university, and I knew her boyfriend at the time. He died of a seizure in her dorm bathroom, and he was really good friends with the guy who ended up marrying her and dying of Corona.

That is fucked.

Second.

Sorry for your loss (and I share your feelings of a sort of guilt).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 09:27:09 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:55 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2020, 07:31:55 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 07:02:30 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 22, 2020, 06:54:37 AM

Stadler and TAC.

Of course. No administration is perfect. Except, that's exactly what the President is trying to sell us. Listen to him, he deflects responsibility at every opportunity. I don't think you'd see people spend so much time belaboring his role if he wasn't such a four-year-old about the entire mess.

I know that. Trump, to me, has acted despicably. My comment was in no way a defense of how Trump has done, and if it came across that way, that was NOT my intent. This is my opinion, and not in anyway influenced by anything Trump has said.


My point was regardless of the occupant, I don't believe this would have been any different. Barack Obama could read the phone book to me, and I would be glued to it. But I think he would have also been clunky at the beginning, as would any president.

Since you mention Obama, research his response to the Ebola virus. Night and day difference and out of that came the pandemic response team that John Bolton got rid of.

Disaster Recovery preparedness is a choice and a learned skill. I've worked in it for 18 years. This administration was not prepared and it's obvious they didn't care about being prepared.

It depends on the disaster.  This is a disaster that no one has ever seen before.  You're comparing apples and oranges.  Ebola isn't nearly as contagious as Covid.  Almost everybody knows that.  As others have already said, no one could've been more prepared for this because it came out of nowhere.

AND we were getting questionable information; remember, there was contact with China and President Xi, and we now know they weren't completely transparent and upfront about things.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 09:30:16 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 22, 2020, 09:25:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:55 AM

As others have already said, no one could've been more prepared for this because it came out of nowhere.

Yet the World Health Organization had worked on a blueprint priority diseases shortlist for years prior to this oubreak, and introduced Disease X in February 2018. This means pretty much exactly the kind of "possible unknown pathogen" the SARS-Cov2 virus is. It didn't come out of nowhere for experts in the field, but unfortunately this is the usual business when it comes to politics because it's not a "sexy" subject to talk about.

OK, but let me ask this..

1. Does the fact that it came from China add a totally unquantifiable variable into the equation, and
2. While I'm a firm believer in fire drills, aren't some fires inescapable?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 22, 2020, 09:40:10 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 09:30:16 AM

1. Does the fact that it came from China add a totally unquantifiable variable into the equation, and
2. While I'm a firm believer in fire drills, aren't some fires inescapable?

1. This is the fourth or fifth significant outbreak in 70 years to originate from that region, so not really.
2. I agree the contagion rate and spreading speed is quite unprecedented which surprised health officials and countries, but it once again highlights why experts in certain fields need to be in a better position than what they are now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 22, 2020, 09:43:33 AM

For the record if you go and read a summary of the SARS outbreak in 2002-4, it looks like the original indie movie that you know as the blockbuster remake that has been done.

There's everything: the origin in a China market, the initial denial about the seriousness, the spreading by travel, towns quarantined, the doctor that discovers it and eventually dies.... oh, and it was a coronavirus as well, we know it as Sars, but it was exactly a coronavirus like this one. It all went down the same, it's just that Covid-19 has been way, way more easily spread all over the world. But this could have happened already in 2003, we were lucky that it was contained enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 09:47:36 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 22, 2020, 09:25:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:55 AM

As others have already said, no one could've been more prepared for this because it came out of nowhere.

Yet the World Health Organization had worked on a blueprint priority diseases shortlist for years prior to this oubreak, and introduced Disease X in February 2018. This means pretty much exactly the kind of "possible unknown pathogen" the SARS-Cov2 virus is. It didn't come out of nowhere for experts in the field, but unfortunately this is the usual business when it comes to politics because it's not a "sexy" subject to talk about.

But that's hindsight, to a degree.  In February 2018, we didn't know that it WAS COVID-19.  As I understand it - and I am open to anyone wanting to correct me here - the designation "Disease X" wasn't "Hey! watch out for this specific virus!  If some dipshit carelessly experiments on bats in a lab in Wuhan, it could be deadly!".   It merely meant that the necessary research and development for all the specifically mentioned diseases ought to be done in such a way as to maximize emergency review of "a" (not "the") new as-yet unknown disease.   

And of course, it's relevant and important to know that this list is NOT a list of "potential pandemics"; it's a list of potential pathogens with insufficient research or countermeasure.   It's also relevant to know what the customary and prudent response has been to previous releases (there has been one, as far as I can tell, back in December of 2015, which is pre-Trump). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2020, 09:59:14 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 09:30:16 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 22, 2020, 09:25:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:55 AM

As others have already said, no one could've been more prepared for this because it came out of nowhere.

Yet the World Health Organization had worked on a blueprint priority diseases shortlist for years prior to this oubreak, and introduced Disease X in February 2018. This means pretty much exactly the kind of "possible unknown pathogen" the SARS-Cov2 virus is. It didn't come out of nowhere for experts in the field, but unfortunately this is the usual business when it comes to politics because it's not a "sexy" subject to talk about.

OK, but let me ask this..

1. Does the fact that it came from China add a totally unquantifiable variable into the equation, and
2. While I'm a firm believer in fire drills, aren't some fires inescapable?

A lot of fires are unavoidable, but if someone shuts down the fire department and tells the residence in the building not to evacuate for a good while, then that is definitely making things worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 22, 2020, 10:00:37 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 09:59:14 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 09:30:16 AM

Quote from: Luoto on April 22, 2020, 09:25:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:55 AM

As others have already said, no one could've been more prepared for this because it came out of nowhere.

Yet the World Health Organization had worked on a blueprint priority diseases shortlist for years prior to this oubreak, and introduced Disease X in February 2018. This means pretty much exactly the kind of "possible unknown pathogen" the SARS-Cov2 virus is. It didn't come out of nowhere for experts in the field, but unfortunately this is the usual business when it comes to politics because it's not a "sexy" subject to talk about.

OK, but let me ask this..

1. Does the fact that it came from China add a totally unquantifiable variable into the equation, and
2. While I'm a firm believer in fire drills, aren't some fires inescapable?

A lot of fries are unavoidable, but if someone shuts down the fire department and tells the residence in the building not to evacuate for a good while, then that is definitely making things worse.

This is definitely true if you go to Five Guys.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 10:01:45 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 09:59:14 AM

A lot of fries are unavoidable,

The only ones I avoid are the real skinny ones. I prefer steak fries. Those are truly unavoidable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2020, 10:03:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 10:01:45 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 09:59:14 AM

A lot of fries are unavoidable,

The only ones I avoid are the real skinny ones. I prefer steak fries. Those are truly unavoidable.

Don't forget curly fries. God damn I love those.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 10:03:26 AM

The only fries that are unavoidable are the really soggy, mashy ones.  I like a good crisp on them.   And despite the tropes and jokes, Mickey D's still has, in my opinion, the best fast-food fries.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 10:03:26 AM

The only fries that are unavoidable are the really soggy, mashy ones.  I like a good crisp on them.   And despite the tropes and jokes, Mickey D's still has, in my opinion, the best fast-food fries.

I wouldn't know. Tell them to make their fries vegetarian!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 10:04:41 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 10:03:26 AM

The only fries that are unavoidable are the really soggy, mashy ones.  I like a good crisp on them.   And despite the tropes and jokes, Mickey D's still has, in my opinion, the best fast-food fries.

I wouldn't know. Tell them to make their fries vegetarian!

Didn't they fix that? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2020, 10:05:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 10:04:41 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 10:03:26 AM

The only fries that are unavoidable are the really soggy, mashy ones.  I like a good crisp on them.   And despite the tropes and jokes, Mickey D's still has, in my opinion, the best fast-food fries.

I wouldn't know. Tell them to make their fries vegetarian!

Didn't they fix that?

Nope. As far as I know, they still cook them in beef fat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 10:08:30 AM

I never understood the appeal of McD's fries. They aren't bad, but the best fast food fries? No way.

On another note, just got a deposit from the state unemployment dept today, reflecting the federal addition. It is off from the number posted on the dept's website, and I cannot reconcile the difference (though not ready to challenge it, I will see how it plays out). But once next week wraps, I will have "earned" more money this month than I might have my whole working life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 22, 2020, 10:11:32 AM

Central Park has the best fries ever. No idea if anybody knows what that is outside of some Illinois people, I haven't seen one in our town for 20 years now and the nearest one is like 2.5 hours away last I checked and that might not even be around anymore. Then Arby's curly fries. McD's fries are actually pretty darn good as long as you eat them while they're hot. As soon as they start getting warm, that's when you either choke them down or stay away

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 10:41:13 AM

That is SPOT ON.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 10:42:06 AM

We actually have an Ebola Thread

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=42501.70

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 22, 2020, 10:44:30 AM

I had ebola oatmeal this morning.



That joke works way better spoken...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 10:52:30 AM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 22, 2020, 11:28:42 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:18:15 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 22, 2020, 07:29:37 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

Look at the 'deaths' graph for Taiwan. Seriously. (Or any other graph there for that matter, compared to other countries). I know it's an island, way easier to contain, but this country took measures before anyone else did, and it shows.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/taiwan/

Did you read my other post?   I gave examples of countries that acted fast and yet aren't showing the same results.  Vice versa, there are countries that didn't act as fast and yet have had success. It's one variable, an important variable, but not the ONLY variable.   For example, your throwaway "I know it's an island" is actually a very big factor, albeit one that can act both ways.

I did read your other post, yes.

To comment further on the Taiwan example; apart from it being an island (obviously a big factor, I know that), there's tons of rules in the country to help contain the spreading. For instance, in order to even get into the country, you have to be tested and then (regardless of the result) be in quarantine for 2 weeks - even extended to 4 weeks recently. This basically means that if you live there, you're supposed to stay indoors (and you will get checked, if not by the authorities then by your neighbours - people are very good at following the rules there). If you do not live there or do not have a resident address; tough luck. You have to go into a hotel and stay there before you can enter the country. Aside from this, wearing a face mask is pretty much mandatory whenever you go outside. Shops and restaurants and everything are still open, but people keep an eye out for each other, and themselves.

I'm typing this mainly because most of the rules are actually fairly easy to implement: force a quarantine for everyone who enters the country. Test whoever enters the country and make sure your inhabitants obey the rules. I'm quite sure in order to make sure the people follow the rules the government has been very clear and transparent about the threat since as early as January. Other countries could have done the same thing, prevention is better than cure, but many chose not to - or not as harshly from the start. This includes many European countries and the USA, among others.

---

Just so know, I have relatives living in Taiwan (see my post in the 'how does COovid mess up your life', so I'm not making any of this up, but just to make sure after typing the above I looked up a news article backing up my claims about Taiwan and found this: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/04/asia/taiwan-coronavirus-response-who-intl-hnk/index.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 22, 2020, 11:28:42 AM

I'm typing this mainly because most of the rules are actually fairly easy to implement

Unless you are America, and implementing anything remotely along those lines would be deemed racist, xenophobic, and hateful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2020, 11:48:58 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 22, 2020, 11:28:42 AM

I'm typing this mainly because most of the rules are actually fairly easy to implement

Unless you are America, and implementing anything remotely along those lines would be deemed racist, xenophobic, and hateful.

If they said non-whites or non-citizens have to be quarantined but Americans don't have to, then yes. But a blanket policy for everyone? I don't think so. At least not by enough people to matter.

Israel tried to do a similar thing but ended up caving to special interest groups like the Ultra Orthodox and things got worse. America, at least from what I remember) was trying to treat citizens differently from non-citizens, as if the virus cares at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: Elite on April 22, 2020, 11:28:42 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 08:18:15 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 22, 2020, 07:29:37 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 22, 2020, 07:02:38 AM

It really depends on your metrics and expectations. Was anyone prepared to make this have close to 0 casualties? Of course not. But should we have been prepared to do a much better job than we did? Yes. It still would've been bad, but possibly not nearly as bad.

Look at the 'deaths' graph for Taiwan. Seriously. (Or any other graph there for that matter, compared to other countries). I know it's an island, way easier to contain, but this country took measures before anyone else did, and it shows.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/taiwan/

Did you read my other post?   I gave examples of countries that acted fast and yet aren't showing the same results.  Vice versa, there are countries that didn't act as fast and yet have had success. It's one variable, an important variable, but not the ONLY variable.   For example, your throwaway "I know it's an island" is actually a very big factor, albeit one that can act both ways.

I did read your other post, yes.

To comment further on the Taiwan example; apart from it being an island (obviously a big factor, I know that), there's tons of rules in the country to help contain the spreading. For instance, in order to even get into the country, you have to be tested and then (regardless of the result) be in quarantine for 2 weeks - even extended to 4 weeks recently. This basically means that if you live there, you're supposed to stay indoors (and you will get checked, if not by the authorities then by your neighbours - people are very good at following the rules there). If you do not live there or do not have a resident address; tough luck. You have to go into a hotel and stay there before you can enter the country. Aside from this, wearing a face mask is pretty much mandatory whenever you go outside. Shops and restaurants and everything are still open, but people keep an eye out for each other, and themselves.

I'm typing this mainly because most of the rules are actually fairly easy to implement: force a quarantine for everyone who enters the country. Test whoever enters the country and make sure your inhabitants obey the rules. I'm quite sure in order to make sure the people follow the rules the government has been very clear and transparent about the threat since as early as January. Other countries could have done the same thing, prevention is better than cure, but many chose not to - or not as harshly from the start. This includes many European countries and the USA, among others.

---

Just so know, I have relatives living in Taiwan (see my post in the 'how does COovid mess up your life', so I'm not making any of this up, but just to make sure after typing the above I looked up a news article backing up my claims about Taiwan and found this: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/04/asia/taiwan-coronavirus-response-who-intl-hnk/index.html

I don't doubt any of your claims; I've heard similar.  I don't know how Trump, Obama, Kennedy or George Washington himself were going to make that stick here in the U.S.  We're just not that kind of society, on any issue, let alone this.   

But some of those aren't necessarily a function of "time".  The original statement was that the prime failure of Trump was timing.  It's far more complicated than that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 12:08:21 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 22, 2020, 11:28:42 AM

I'm typing this mainly because most of the rules are actually fairly easy to implement

Unless you are America, and implementing anything remotely along those lines would be deemed racist, xenophobic, and hateful.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/xenophobe-chief-democrats-blast-trump-s-plan-suspend-immigration-u-n1188551
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/21/no-mr-so-called-president-racism-wont-stop-the-coronavirus/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/scapegoating-trump-plan-ban-immigration-slammed-200421165115044.html

No judgement as to whether they are right or wrong, but Chris's assertion is certainly bolstered by these sources.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2020, 12:20:37 PM

Quote from: Tick on April 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM

Hi everyone! I have not posted in weeks because I've been laid off for weeks. I hope everyone is healthy physically and mentally. I just wanted to drop in and say hello. :heart

Just read what you wrote Chino. Sorry to hear that.

Sorry to hear that, also damn Chino sorry for your loss.  What a shitty situation that is for that widow. 

Quote from: DragonAttack on April 21, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

All that your family has gone through, and now...how many sleepless nights before the results will be in?

its 5-7 days before she gets the results, had the test a couple hours ago.  However, she then saw another doctor for the rash who believes her symptoms are from that and it's not some coronarash that I read about.  However, the biopsy on that since they don't know what the rash actually is will take another 7-10 days to get results.  So it's a lot of wait and see, but she said she's really not feeling great again today.  Who knows.  Personally, I think she's been away from people long enough that I don't beleive it to be covid so I worry for my mom's mental health moreso than physical at the moment, the unknowing in these times is pretty scary. 

Quote from: Harmony on April 22, 2020, 08:22:01 AM

I'm glad she's getting tested and each day it's easier to GET tested so there is at least some good news about that part.

Yea, apparently it is getting easier to get a test.  The testing site near my house is apparently open for anyone who wants a test now.  I heard this from friends but have yet to read a statement, but that's really good if true.  I've been a firm believer that EVERYONE needs to get tested at some point before we can truly know the scope of this and to get people back to work as my belief is that many more have or have had the virus than we know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 12:22:32 PM

Quote from: Tick on April 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM

Hi everyone! I have not posted in weeks because I've been laid off for weeks. I hope everyone is healthy physically and mentally. I just wanted to drop in and say hello. :heart

Great job on that Journey - Separate Ways video!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 22, 2020, 12:40:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2020, 12:20:37 PM

Quote from: Tick on April 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM

Hi everyone! I have not posted in weeks because I've been laid off for weeks. I hope everyone is healthy physically and mentally. I just wanted to drop in and say hello. :heart

Just read what you wrote Chino. Sorry to hear that.

Sorry to hear that, also damn Chino sorry for your loss.  What a shitty situation that is for that widow. 

Quote from: DragonAttack on April 21, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

All that your family has gone through, and now...how many sleepless nights before the results will be in?

its 5-7 days before she gets the results, had the test a couple hours ago.  However, she then saw another doctor for the rash who believes her symptoms are from that and it's not some coronarash that I read about.  However, the biopsy on that since they don't know what the rash actually is will take another 7-10 days to get results.  So it's a lot of wait and see, but she said she's really not feeling great again today.  Who knows.  Personally, I think she's been away from people long enough that I don't beleive it to be covid so I worry for my mom's mental health moreso than physical at the moment, the unknowing in these times is pretty scary. 

Quote from: Harmony on April 22, 2020, 08:22:01 AM

I'm glad she's getting tested and each day it's easier to GET tested so there is at least some good news about that part.

Yea, apparently it is getting easier to get a test.  The testing site near my house is apparently open for anyone who wants a test now.  I heard this from friends but have yet to read a statement, but that's really good if true.  I've been a firm believer that EVERYONE needs to get tested at some point before we can truly know the scope of this and to get people back to work as my belief is that many more have or have had the virus than we know.

5-7 days? That's mental, man. I dealt with something similar recently; it took only 6 hours and it was definitely 6 hours too long. I cross fingers and toes for you and your family and wish all the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2020, 12:52:11 PM

You must have those quick tests that we still don't seem to have in the US.  The wait period for this is crazy but it seems to be the norm over here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2020, 01:21:25 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 12:22:32 PM

Quote from: Tick on April 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM

Hi everyone! I have not posted in weeks because I've been laid off for weeks. I hope everyone is healthy physically and mentally. I just wanted to drop in and say hello. :heart

Great job on that Journey - Separate Ways video!

HAHAHA

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 04:29:30 PM

How does everyone feel about Herd Immunity?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 04:30:44 PM

Is that a new speed metal band?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 22, 2020, 04:37:09 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 04:29:30 PM

How does everyone feel about Herd Immunity?

I'm in favor of it.   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 22, 2020, 04:43:51 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 22, 2020, 04:30:44 PM

Is that a new speed metal band?

 :lol

The idea of herd immunity skeeves me out a bit, like chicken pox parties/sleepovers for kids in the 90s

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2020, 04:46:39 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 04:29:30 PM

How does everyone feel about Herd Immunity?

I think we get there before we get a vaccine personally

Also, https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/us/california-deaths-earliest-in-us/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/us/california-deaths-earliest-in-us/index.html) it seems more and more data is coming out that the virus was here before we first started realizing.  Saw Dr. Gupta on CNN talk about this.   One died on February 6th, that means the person was likely infected in early January maybe even late December.  That person didn't travel outside the US.  This means it's been spreading in the US long before we started documenting it.   In my mind, it might mean we are closer to herd immunity than the numbers suggest based on the amount of asymptomatic undocumented cases.  Of course, that's just a feeling based on no actual data and I can be completely wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 22, 2020, 05:00:17 PM

Did anyone see the mayor of Vegas' interview with Cooper...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1253041723510587394 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1253041723510587394)



I'm speechless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 22, 2020, 05:35:21 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 22, 2020, 05:00:17 PM

Did anyone see the mayor of Vegas' interview with Cooper...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1253041723510587394 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1253041723510587394)



I'm speechless.

 :lol

Put me in the group for the placebo.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 22, 2020, 05:36:14 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 22, 2020, 04:29:30 PM

How does everyone feel about Herd Immunity?

In what way? The tactics to get to that point or herd immunity itself?

Herd immunity is a proven concept widely applied, that has stopped many diseases from being prevalent. It is the reason why children get vaccines, to have a high degree of the population immune for a variety of illnesses. In that way, the people who are not immune have a relatively low risk of contracting the disease, because chances are low that people around them carry the virus. The percentage of people required to be immune for herd immunity differs per virus, depending on how infectious it is  (For example, for the measles 19 out of 20 people need to be immune).

Vaccine or not, we will get there eventually because it seems unlikely this virus will go away.

And how effective herd immunity will be on the long run will depend on how/if the virus can evolve to render that immunity ineffective (as Influenza does almost every year). I think research indicates the mutation rate of this corona virus is significantly lower than influenza, but there is little selective pressure as of now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 03:17:18 AM

On my phone as usual so no linky. A new study of 5K plus hospitalized patients in NY revealed that 94% bad more than 1 underlying disease. Also a huge majority were elderly. We already knew that but wow. This mutating beast seems to be designed to thin the weak from the herd.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 23, 2020, 03:35:09 AM

Why ‘designed’? Disease are always more prevalent in people with weaker immune systems or underlying health problems. That’s not really anything new, is it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 03:49:51 AM

True. I think that data is crucial moving forward though. That was kind of my point. Seems like those of us under 63 with no underlying conditions can feel pretty good about getting the country moving again. With masks and distancing of course.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 23, 2020, 03:55:55 AM

Okay, I specifically singled out the word 'designed' because that word implies it was made by someone, but based on your next response, I guess that was unintentional :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 05:30:19 AM

I've been saying for weeks that we should strictly quarantine anyone that is at high risk and the rest of us should go on with life. The elderly and people with certain preexisting conditions (especially those in both categories) should stay home 100% of the time. That way we get to herd immunity with those who are unlikely to have serious symptoms and we spare those who are accounting for 95%-ish of the deaths. It sounds harsh, but this virus definitely seems to be nature's way of culling the elderly and weak. Yes, there are occasionally otherwise healthy and young people dying, but they are by far in the minority.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 05:42:08 AM

Well, I don't know how nature works. Events occur over time that thin herds and wipe out various species. Maybe they were random occurrences in a  universe of unexplainable chaos.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 06:42:43 AM

I was on a call last week and one of the people made a quasi-joke by asking "so how many people thought they had it?" meaning, how many coughed once, or sneezed and immediately thought they were dying from COVID-19.  But in reading the reports about the time line (I'm pretty sure New York was seeing some of that data, and there's speculation that the Super Bowl on February 2 was a petri dish of sorts) how would you guys feel if it turns out you've had it, asymptomatically?   I think I would be a little freaked out, but honestly, kind of relieved. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 23, 2020, 06:49:42 AM

I would definitely be relieved but there's no way of finding out.

We talk about that kind of thing at work. And there's been virtually zero confirmed cases in my store. How is that possible? Someone must have gotten it, no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 06:55:33 AM

Same here; I'm 100 miles from the East Coast epi-center, and to my knowledge, no one I know personally on a day-to-day basis has gotten it.  I know one person who was actually tested, and negative, but that's it.  Closest I've come was someone in my daughter's dorm at college got it, but she had no contact with him for at least seven days before she left school, and it's been something like four weeks (or more) since she's been home.  Actually going on eight, if my math is correct.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 07:02:25 AM

emtee, it is this study, right?

https://time.com/5825485/coronavirus-risk-factors/ (https://time.com/5825485/coronavirus-risk-factors/)

I think this is important to realise in regards to the US:

About 40% of the US adult population is obese (BMI over 30) and a very high percentage of the US population suffers from hypertension (high blood pressure). Those are underlying illnesses counted as comorbidity. Many individuals who consider themselves normal but just "overweight" are potentially at risk, because the lifestyle that leads to these factors is extremely common.

Just look at the most commonly asscociated factors in that study (predominantly obesity and hypertension). And then look at the statistics of the US in regards to obesity/hypertension:

https://www.cdc.gov/bloodpressure/facts.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/bloodpressure/facts.htm)
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html (https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 07:03:04 AM

Same for me. Nobody in my circle. However, a sickness went through my brother-in-laws business in late December (Michigan) where everyone got "sicker than they have ever been" for two weeks. He swears it was Covid.

Side note: 26 million have now filed for unemployment. Millions more tried (many in Florida) and couldn't get into the system. We're probably looking at 30 million plus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 23, 2020, 07:11:34 AM

I worked for three weeks in Milan in an office with 30 persons and nobody got infected, nor talking among ourselves we had some relative infected (at least that has been publicy shared). In my family everyone is fine, even though I have a second grade cousin (son of my mum's cousin), who has a girlfriend, and the mother of said girlfriend has been suspiciously ill (luckily not gravely) with what could have been the symptoms.

I often wonder how come we all got unscathed through it in the office, in the three weeks between the start of the spreading, and our coming home to do smart working; we all took the subway or the car, and we had all relatives in turn.... were we just luky? the disease had not spread in Milan yet? taking basic precautions like washing our hands and not stage-diving among people was already enough, and those who got infected were reckless people who never wash they hands, or got unlucky in having someone sneezing in their face?

I'll never know if we were careful, just lucky, or never at risk because Milan wasn't infected severly just yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 07:14:17 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 23, 2020, 07:03:04 AM

Same for me. Nobody in my circle. However, a sickness went through my brother-in-laws business in late December (Michigan) where everyone got "sicker than they have ever been" for two weeks. He swears it was Covid.

Side note: 26 million have now filed for unemployment. Millions more tried (many in Florida) and couldn't get into the system. We're probably looking at 30 million plus.

Earlier this year, the 2019-2020 flu season was on track to be one of the worst in a decade. But now that is very hard to keep track of I'd imagine. And it is still a problem over here in the Netherlands, a significant portion of people suspecting covid turn out to have the flu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 07:24:51 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 07:14:17 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 23, 2020, 07:03:04 AM

Same for me. Nobody in my circle. However, a sickness went through my brother-in-laws business in late December (Michigan) where everyone got "sicker than they have ever been" for two weeks. He swears it was Covid.

Side note: 26 million have now filed for unemployment. Millions more tried (many in Florida) and couldn't get into the system. We're probably looking at 30 million plus.

Earlier this year, the 2019-2020 flu season was on track to be one of the worst in a decade. But now that is very hard to keep track of I'd imagine. And it is still a problem over here in the Netherlands, a significant portion of people suspecting covid turn out to have the flu.

He said that a few of the employees all tested negative for both flu A and B. He was suspicious because they MFG parts/product for China and several Chinese suits had visited their facility in mid December.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 07:31:30 AM

I was in NYC twice between December and February.   TWICE.   

This is almost a form of psychological torture.   ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 23, 2020, 07:34:18 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 07:31:30 AM

I was in NYC twice between December and February.   TWICE.   

This is almost a form of psychological torture.   ;)

I wouldn't call seeing me psychological torture. But it's not too far off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 08:10:54 AM

 :lol

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 06:42:43 AM

how would you guys feel if it turns out you've had it, asymptomatically?   I think I would be a little freaked out, but honestly, kind of relieved. 

I hope I had it and a small part of me believes I did with how bad my cold symptoms were for so long in the beginning of February and through March. 

Quote from: TAC on April 23, 2020, 06:49:42 AM

I would definitely be relieved but there's no way of finding out.

We talk about that kind of thing at work. And there's been virtually zero confirmed cases in my store. How is that possible? Someone must have gotten it, no?

An anti-body test would show if you had it or not, but that's not readily available yet.  I also wonder why we don't hear much about grocery store people getting sick.  The girl I've been dating is a dollar store manager and she hasn't gotten sick, neither have her workers who are (or were, apparently it's died down there) dealing with mobs of people. 

My personal guess, is that yes, a lot of us were exposed and likely with a small dose of the virus.  Enough to build antibodies and not get sick.  These people are likely safe to be out in public, however, without an anti-body test, there's no way to know for sure.

Also, in regards to this virus killing killing the weak.  It's kind of true.  I mean, that's natural selection in a way.  Sucks to say it because it impacts many of us directly, but that's a reality here.  If you are old and weak, you are prime target for this.  I was just telling my mom how this timing worked out well in one regard, I got into much better shape over the last year.  I feel I was a prime target for this thing being so fat, what if I didn't lose that weight and got the virus?  Maybe my symptoms would be a lot worse than a bad cold.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 08:15:26 AM

Most areas practice social distancing, do not have events, and people who are ill generally will stay at home now (or at least to a larger degree). Looking at the lowering numbers in out country, those measurements work, even with a good amount of our freedom intact. If we did not do measurements, a lot more people would be ill right now. I am not sure if I would assume most people have had it by now, we simply do not know yet.

Quote from: emtee on April 23, 2020, 07:24:51 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 07:14:17 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 23, 2020, 07:03:04 AM

Same for me. Nobody in my circle. However, a sickness went through my brother-in-laws business in late December (Michigan) where everyone got "sicker than they have ever been" for two weeks. He swears it was Covid.

Side note: 26 million have now filed for unemployment. Millions more tried (many in Florida) and couldn't get into the system. We're probably looking at 30 million plus.

Earlier this year, the 2019-2020 flu season was on track to be one of the worst in a decade. But now that is very hard to keep track of I'd imagine. And it is still a problem over here in the Netherlands, a significant portion of people suspecting covid turn out to have the flu.

He said that a few of the employees all tested negative for both flu A and B. He was suspicious because they MFG parts/product for China and several Chinese suits had visited their facility in mid December.

It is still unlikely,

influenza diagnostic tests are not very sensitive. Over here we usually don't test people with infuenza symptoms:

Quote

Sensitivities of RIDTs are generally approximately 50-70%, but a range of 10-80% has been reported compared to viral culture or RT-PCR. Specificities of RIDTs are approximately 90-95% (range 85-100%). Thus false negative results occur more commonly than false positive results.

Negative results of RIDTs do not exclude influenza virus infection and influenza should still be considered in a patient if clinical suspicion is high based upon history, signs, symptoms and clinical examination.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/diagnosis/clinician_guidance_ridt.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/diagnosis/clinician_guidance_ridt.htm)

But if the doctors ruled out influenza based on clinical symptoms, that is possible, but not solely on testing.
But keep note there are many more viruses or other pathogens causing similar diseases, but large scale outbreaks of those are uncommon.

In the case of corona, in most if not all areas where there is an outbreak the ICU cases are piling up quickly. We have seen in many countries how quickly this happens after the first couple of cases. Also, with almost 1.4 billion people living in China, someone being from China was not necessarily a huge risk factor back then.

I will never say never though.

I am sorry if I come accross as a dick or something! It is just that over here many people are spreading misinformation about the virus underselling it's potential dangers. That includes "the virus has been here for a long time, just now we decided it is a problem", so that I why I go into a deeper discussion regarding this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 08:31:19 AM

No problem. We're just discussing, prognisticating and learning as we go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 23, 2020, 08:35:01 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 08:10:54 AM

:lol

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 06:42:43 AM

how would you guys feel if it turns out you've had it, asymptomatically?   I think I would be a little freaked out, but honestly, kind of relieved. 

I hope I had it and a small part of me believes I did with how bad my cold symptoms were for so long in the beginning of February and through March. 

Quote from: TAC on April 23, 2020, 06:49:42 AM

I would definitely be relieved but there's no way of finding out.

We talk about that kind of thing at work. And there's been virtually zero confirmed cases in my store. How is that possible? Someone must have gotten it, no?

An anti-body test would show if you had it or not, but that's not readily available yet.  I also wonder why we don't hear much about grocery store people getting sick.  The girl I've been dating is a dollar store manager and she hasn't gotten sick, neither have her workers who are (or were, apparently it's died down there) dealing with mobs of people. 

fwiw in the Gaspé peninsula region of Québec which is somewhat remote there's been breakouts of Covid-19 in two grocery stores

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 23, 2020, 08:55:03 AM

I don't think it's at all as simple as isolating the high risk people and letting everyone else go about their business.  At first, that seems like a reasonable suggestion.  But then you would have to isolate the high risk people and anyone who lives with them right?  So all people over a certain age and people who live with them.  All people with the chronic conditions deemed high risk and people who live with them.  And if simply being obese is considered high risk as ErHaO posts, and as much as 40% of the US population is obese, then you add in whoever lives with them... Then we may as well just do what we're doing now and keep everyone home.

I'm not saying forever, but I am saying for now.  While we're still learning, gathering data, testing plasma and other treatments, and (hopefully) building up our testing capacity and our supplies of PPE.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 09:09:42 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 23, 2020, 08:55:03 AM

I don't think it's at all as simple as isolating the high risk people and letting everyone else go about their business.  At first, that seems like a reasonable suggestion.  But then you would have to isolate the high risk people and anyone who lives with them right?  So all people over a certain age and people who live with them.  All people with the chronic conditions deemed high risk and people who live with them.  And if simply being obese is considered high risk as ErHaO posts, and as much as 40% of the US population is obese, then you add in whoever lives with them... Then we may as well just do what we're doing now and keep everyone home.

I'm not saying forever, but I am saying for now.  While we're still learning, gathering data, testing plasma and other treatments, and (hopefully) building up our testing capacity and our supplies of PPE.

Sure, I think having everyone try to stay home is OK for now. But sooner or later something's going to have to give.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 23, 2020, 09:21:00 AM

Yeah, but it can't be "Ok, it's been long enough, everyone go back out."

The government - both federal and state - needs to gear up and come up with a plan first, one that's backed by science and public health recommendations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 23, 2020, 09:32:38 AM

At some point you have to shit or get off the pot. It is not callous to say that at some point the economic ramifications of being shut down will outweigh the consequences from death. This isn't a video game where we can just lock every person inside and wait for the 'right solution' to be found. This is real life and we all just have to do our best for ourselves and everyone around us. At some point, everyone's gonna hit their last straw, whether it's when they run out of money or their power is shut off or worse. Not everybody can sit inside for weeks on end, not everybody can afford to stock up food for weeks, not everyone can work from home. People have to go to work through this, even if it's bad. (I see in Illinois that the Ameren company will not shut off power until the first of May; well, that day is rapidly approaching and we're still no closer to getting out of the woods.)

It's a bad situation all around.

(And on a somewhat related note, I keep seeing people trying to organize 'hunts' and outdoor games for their kids during this whole thing, and mayors and governors telling people to go to parks. I've seen stories in Illinois of officials making games out of trying to go to as many parks as possible to keep people busy and I'm thinking... that is the dumbest thing you can do. Boohoo, people are bored, I know, let's go send everybody to mingle at parks and get all the kids to play together, 'cause I guess in those situations nobody will get sick?)

(EDIT: this is not in response to anybody specifically, just kind of spewing my thoughts... frustrated)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 23, 2020, 09:43:09 AM

I'm not at all suggesting that everyone can do those things.  It is indeed a bad situation.  But it's going to be worse if we just open up with no evidence that it's safe to do so.  We'll wind up with more people dead *and* more shutdowns.  I read earlier this morning that most Americans support the stay at home measures.  Most would be willing to or interested in using at home test kits.  I think most would even be willing to download and app for contact tracing (or something similar).  I think if things start opening up without evidence showing that it's safe to do so, a lot of people won't be going out anyway.  If deaths and severe cases spike, people will demand that their governments do something, we'll have another round of shutdowns, etc.  So why not try to get it as close to right the first time as possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 09:47:20 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 23, 2020, 09:43:09 AM

I think if things start opening up without evidence showing that it's safe to do so, a lot of people won't be going out anyway. 

It's going to be hard to prove it's safe to open up.  But I agree, even if we show it's safe, people aren't going to be flocking out anyway.  Lots will, but also many won't because we've learned from this, you don't need to go out all the time.  At work they said for everyone to expect to be working from home throughout the summer, and honestly, I think a lot of people will be told to not just go back at all (Not laid off, but WFH) because this all showed a lot of people don't need to be out on the roads and using public transportation to do a job they can do from home.  Society is going to change from this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 23, 2020, 09:47:40 AM

I didn't say you were :neverusethis: I wasn't replying to anyone specifically

(also we've already fucked up getting it right the first time tbh)

@emtee below: :hifive: brudda

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 09:47:54 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 23, 2020, 09:32:38 AM

At some point you have to shit or get off the pot. It is not callous to say that at some point the economic ramifications of being shut down will outweigh the consequences from death. This isn't a video game where we can just lock every person inside and wait for the 'right solution' to be found. This is real life and we all just have to do our best for ourselves and everyone around us. At some point, everyone's gonna hit their last straw, whether it's when they run out of money or their power is shut off or worse. Not everybody can sit inside for weeks on end, not everybody can afford to stock up food for weeks, not everyone can work from home. People have to go to work through this, even if it's bad. (I see in Illinois that the Ameren company will not shut off power until the first of May; well, that day is rapidly approaching and we're still no closer to getting out of the woods.)

It's a bad situation all around.

(And on a somewhat related note, I keep seeing people trying to organize 'hunts' and outdoor games for their kids during this whole thing, and mayors and governors telling people to go to parks. I've seen stories in Illinois of officials making games out of trying to go to as many parks as possible to keep people busy and I'm thinking... that is the dumbest thing you can do. Boohoo, people are bored, I know, let's go send everybody to mingle at parks and get all the kids to play together, 'cause I guess in those situations nobody will get sick?)

(EDIT: this is not in response to anybody specifically, just kind of spewing my thoughts... frustrated)

Your first paragraph is spot-on and I have written basically the same thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 23, 2020, 10:00:48 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 23, 2020, 09:32:38 AM

At some point you have to shit or get off the pot. It is not callous to say that at some point the economic ramifications of being shut down will outweigh the consequences from death. This isn't a video game where we can just lock every person inside and wait for the 'right solution' to be found. This is real life and we all just have to do our best for ourselves and everyone around us. At some point, everyone's gonna hit their last straw, whether it's when they run out of money or their power is shut off or worse. Not everybody can sit inside for weeks on end, not everybody can afford to stock up food for weeks, not everyone can work from home. People have to go to work through this, even if it's bad. (I see in Illinois that the Ameren company will not shut off power until the first of May; well, that day is rapidly approaching and we're still no closer to getting out of the woods.)

It's a bad situation all around.

This sums it up beautifully.  (and I know emtee has said similar things)

Quote from: Lethean on April 23, 2020, 09:43:09 AM

I read earlier this morning that most Americans support the stay at home measures. 

I would modify that to say that "most Americans that were polled support it."  But I feel pretty safe in guessing that most (or if not most, at least a VERY significant portion) Americans cannot afford to do so for much longer.  And as I've been saying since the beginning, once those folks decide they have had "enough," I fear what we will see.  Things could turn VERY ugly VERY quickly.

EDIT:  And don't get me wrong--I'm not really arguing against what you are saying.  Not at all.  I'm just pointing out that this is all, just...complicated and...well, as Katt said, just bad all around.  It isn't just the virus.  There are other factors that have me more worried than what the virus itself will do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 23, 2020, 10:20:12 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 08:10:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 06:42:43 AM

how would you guys feel if it turns out you've had it, asymptomatically?   I think I would be a little freaked out, but honestly, kind of relieved. 

I hope I had it and a small part of me believes I did with how bad my cold symptoms were for so long in the beginning of February and through March. 

I would be hesitant to equate a bad cold to COVID-19.  I guess it depends on your symptoms - this virus seems to have a few very specific symptoms (fever, body aches, breathing issues, severe fatigue). 

We had a cold that my family just couldn't shake and were all passing it back and forth for a month.  My kids usually get mild fevers with cold viruses, but my wife and I rarely do.  So I feel comfortable saying that we've just had bad colds in February, since none of us had the COVID symptoms at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 23, 2020, 10:23:21 AM

I'll be honest, I actually am more concerned about civil unrest rising from anxiety over economic fallout than I am the virus. It really does not take much to unveil a first world society's frailty and see how people act when things get real. Look at how fast people turned into animals over toilet paper and hand sanitizer. If that was the trial run for a real plague, we (collectively, as Americans, at least) effectively botched the dress rehearsal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 23, 2020, 10:50:50 AM

I agree. It's not immanent but all the critical ingredients are there. Stress, panic, uncertainty, hopelessness, unemployment, and potentially, hunger. It wouldn't take much for this to blow up into something, for lack of a better word, catastrophic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 10:53:52 AM

There is going to be a clear divide, if it doesn't exist already' between the essential and stay-at-home worker, and the non-essential and gotta work on location worker. With all the people making decisions being "essential" I hope it doesn't get too one-sided.

Regarding people having their power shut off or whatever, I believe many municipalities are taking steps to prevent such things from happening

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 10:55:52 AM

Not snark, but cynicism:  we can't even agree on basic, uncontroverted points, how can we expect there to be anything more than a plurality on when it's "safe" to open up?   If you don't think we should have closed to begin with, you're already there.  Then of course, there are those that already feel it's safe, but don't have the courage to say so.

This I think is going to be one of those cases where our elected officials have to make the best decision they can based on their information, their priorities and their promises, and the electorate will be able to weigh in their agreement or dissent at the ballot box.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 10:59:47 AM

I agree that we cannot discount the "pressure cooker" scenario.  Honestly I think part of the problem is that there are so many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak.  I understand completely the desire to leave the opening up of states to the states.  But as has been said, the virus doesn't pay attention to state/county/city lines.  I wonder if having an open-up plan that was clear and concise across the US wouldn't be more beneficial.  Once a local community has no ICU admissions from COVID for a period of time, then step 1 open.  If this trend continues for another set period of time, step 2 open, and so on.  The lack of uniformity could be adding to the stress/pressure.  And what I think is going to happen is that states that open too fast and turn into hotspots are going to lead to travel bans from those areas into other areas and then people are really going to lose their shit because this will change week to week if not day to day.  I hope I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 11:01:37 AM

Quote from: Grappler on April 23, 2020, 10:20:12 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 08:10:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 06:42:43 AM

how would you guys feel if it turns out you've had it, asymptomatically?   I think I would be a little freaked out, but honestly, kind of relieved. 

I hope I had it and a small part of me believes I did with how bad my cold symptoms were for so long in the beginning of February and through March. 

I would be hesitant to equate a bad cold to COVID-19.  I guess it depends on your symptoms - this virus seems to have a few very specific symptoms (fever, body aches, breathing issues, severe fatigue). 

We had a cold that my family just couldn't shake and were all passing it back and forth for a month.  My kids usually get mild fevers with cold viruses, but my wife and I rarely do.  So I feel comfortable saying that we've just had bad colds in February, since none of us had the COVID symptoms at all.

I'm a bit hesitant to say it for sure, but I live near the hotbed of this mess, went to many concerts to start the year as well.  Plus it wasn't just a bad cold, extreme amounts of mucus for two weeks which I've never experienced before and extreme fatigue that I even was talking about in the exercise thread.  For a month I couldn't bike for more than 10 minutes without being out of breathe and feeling terrible.  I could hardly do my job without feeling exhausted as well.  Most of it at the time just felt like a cold because back then, everyone was under the assumption you needed a fever to be infected.  You don't need to have any symptoms to be infected in reality.  Who knows.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 23, 2020, 11:10:01 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 11:01:37 AM

Quote from: Grappler on April 23, 2020, 10:20:12 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 08:10:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 06:42:43 AM

how would you guys feel if it turns out you've had it, asymptomatically?   I think I would be a little freaked out, but honestly, kind of relieved. 

I hope I had it and a small part of me believes I did with how bad my cold symptoms were for so long in the beginning of February and through March. 

I would be hesitant to equate a bad cold to COVID-19.  I guess it depends on your symptoms - this virus seems to have a few very specific symptoms (fever, body aches, breathing issues, severe fatigue). 

We had a cold that my family just couldn't shake and were all passing it back and forth for a month.  My kids usually get mild fevers with cold viruses, but my wife and I rarely do.  So I feel comfortable saying that we've just had bad colds in February, since none of us had the COVID symptoms at all.

I'm a bit hesitant to say it for sure, but I live near the hotbed of this mess, went to many concerts to start the year as well.  Plus it wasn't just a bad cold, extreme amounts of mucus for two weeks which I've never experienced before and extreme fatigue that I even was talking about in the exercise thread.  For a month I couldn't bike for more than 10 minutes without being out of breathe and feeling terrible.  I could hardly do my job without feeling exhausted as well.  Most of it at the time just felt like a cold because back then, everyone was under the assumption you needed a fever to be infected.  You don't need to have any symptoms to be infected in reality.  Who knows.

Ah yeah, based on that I'd say that it's definitely possible that you might have had it.  The stuff I've read from some of the metal musicians that have had it said very similar things, mainly the fatigue (being so wiped out and needing to lay down and rest just from walking out to their car in the garage). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 11:11:42 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 10:59:47 AM

But as has been said, the virus doesn't pay attention to state/county/city lines. 

In theory yes, but different states/counties/cities are going to have different levels of ingress/egress than others. My wife's friends in NM are all touting their low infection numbers. It's not because they are doing anything better than NYC, it's because no one travels to NM. A state/local government is going to have a better handle on the situation on the ground. I doubt Trump could find NM on a map.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 23, 2020, 11:28:12 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 11:11:42 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 10:59:47 AM

But as has been said, the virus doesn't pay attention to state/county/city lines. 

In theory yes, but different states/counties/cities are going to have different levels of ingress/egress than others. My wife's friends in NM are all touting their low infection numbers. It's not because they are doing anything better than NYC, it's because no one travels to NM. A state/local government is going to have a better handle on the situation on the ground. I doubt Trump could find NM on a map.

I dunno man, I wouldn't discount no one going to NM.  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 11:32:50 AM

I can only really talk from the perspective of my own country and thankfully we have a low national debt and have effective and accessible social safety nets. We will be able to sustain them for a good while. From this perspective, keeping the lockdown in place to save lives is a reasonable and conceivable goal. But I recognise this is not the situation in many other places.

Looking at the unemployment rates in the US and other nations skyrocketing, while the world economy plunges is extremely worrying, I agree. And I agree at some point you have to wonder what does more damage. And yes, the damage it is doing to society as a whole, globally, is also major. For example, one of my Dutch friends was told to "fuck off" to his own country (the Netherlands) by different Belgians on seperate occasions a while ago. And I am not going to pretend there are no Dutch people doing that to Belgians either. People are going mad all around.

But the fact still is we don't know what happens if we let the floodgates loose so to speak. Nobody has kept society going without drastic measurements after an initial outbreak. As I stated last page, those comorbidities found in critical patients are very common, to the degree many people with obesity consider themselves normal. In the US we are talking like 40% of the adults, but in any comparable first world country these illnesses are almost normalised.

A terrible situation all around and I hope everyone will be able to find solutions. Perhaps/hopefully a gradual return to activities, along with monitoring cases, will allow for peoples livelyhoods to return while the hospitals aren't getting flooded.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 12:08:12 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 11:11:42 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 10:59:47 AM

But as has been said, the virus doesn't pay attention to state/county/city lines. 

In theory yes, but different states/counties/cities are going to have different levels of ingress/egress than others. My wife's friends in NM are all touting their low infection numbers. It's not because they are doing anything better than NYC, it's because no one travels to NM. A state/local government is going to have a better handle on the situation on the ground. I doubt Trump could find NM on a map.

Yes, and what I posted accounted for that very thing.  Various localities in NM have zero ICU admissions then they are free to be on the plan towards being open.  If suddenly they have an upswing in ICU admissions for COVID, then they restrict again.  It isn't just a state.  It's local areas.  The problem is that people move in and out of rural areas and cities.  So from day to day, this could change but at least everyone is operating under the same set of criteria.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 23, 2020, 12:12:10 PM

Some good news, for a change:

Today in Italy, for the first time, healed cases are superior to the new cases. It may be irrelevant, but after two months of constant dreadful evening bulletins, it means a lot. 

On a more personal level - but it may be interesting for those who work in the performing arts (not essential, can't work from home, depending on large gatherings) - my company is being contacted by a couple of theatres and regional administrations which had obviously suspended our contracts; they're telling us to free dates and to send new pre-contracts between June and September because the Ministry of Culture seems to have a - still in the works - blueprint for re-opening some venues, as long as attendance is halved (according to new safety distances between seats) and shows are doubled after a sanitation interval. I doubt it's total bullcrap, because we are already talking miles, days, and money.

We are all facing huge problems now and in the coming years, I personally can use even the tiniest speck of positive thinking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:12:38 PM

Saw something earlier that 88% of Covid patients that are put on ventilators are dying (too lazy to track down the article). Maybe ventilators aren't the right treatment? Or I suppose maybe there's just no hope for them in the first place because they're too far gone. It really does seem that there's still no known way to effectively treat the really sick patients.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 12:15:07 PM

ECMO stats are even worse.  The problem is that this disease hangs on a long time.  The longer someone is on a vent, the less likely they will recover.

And yes, I heard the good news about Italy.  That gives hope.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 12:19:39 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 10:59:47 AM

The problem is that people move in and out of rural areas and cities.  So from day to day, this could change but at least everyone is operating under the same set of criteria.

Correct, even ghost towns are not going to have zero ingress over a period of time. I think I read your post wrong. Yes there should be a standard criteria, and that should be administered at the local level.

Quote from: Indiscipline on April 23, 2020, 12:12:10 PM

.... the Ministry of Culture seems to have a - still in the works - blueprint for re-opening some venues...

That's an actual position?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 23, 2020, 12:21:57 PM

Even John Petrucci finds a moment to remember us in Italy  :heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=g6SbyxXsinw&feature=emb_logo

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 23, 2020, 12:22:50 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 12:19:39 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on April 23, 2020, 12:12:10 PM

.... the Ministry of Culture seems to have a - still in the works - blueprint for re-opening some venues...

That's an actual position?

Grossly translating it would be Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Showbusiness.

That's our main national resource, even if sometimes we don't treat it as such.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:23:28 PM

More than 21% of New York City residents tested for antibodies tested positive.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-21-of-new-york-city-residents-tested-for-coronavirus-antibodies-were-positive-says-gov-cuomo-2020-04-23?mod=home-page

Again, I think this shows that this has been spreading far longer than previously thought and that the number of cases has been vastly undercounted. Or that the testing is completely unreliable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 12:33:30 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:23:28 PM

More than 21% of New York City residents tested for antibodies tested positive.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-21-of-new-york-city-residents-tested-for-coronavirus-antibodies-were-positive-says-gov-cuomo-2020-04-23?mod=home-page

Again, I think this shows that this has been spreading far longer than previously thought and that the number of cases has been vastly undercounted. Or that the testing is completely unreliable.

If I were a betting woman, I'd say the former more than the latter.  (There are always potential false positives and false negatives in testing).  I am definitely in favor of ramping up antibody testing in a YUGE way.  However, we still don't know how long a person may have antibodies after exposure and if that actually conveys protection against reinfection.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:50:54 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 12:33:30 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:23:28 PM

More than 21% of New York City residents tested for antibodies tested positive.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-21-of-new-york-city-residents-tested-for-coronavirus-antibodies-were-positive-says-gov-cuomo-2020-04-23?mod=home-page

Again, I think this shows that this has been spreading far longer than previously thought and that the number of cases has been vastly undercounted. Or that the testing is completely unreliable.

If I were a betting woman, I'd say the former more than the latter.  (There are always potential false positives and false negatives in testing).  I am definitely in favor of ramping up antibody testing in a YUGE way.  However, we still don't know how long a person may have antibodies after exposure and if that actually conveys protection against reinfection.

I hope it's the former, though like you said testing isn't going to be 100% accurate. If that 20% rate carries over all of NYC, that means about 1.6 million people have had it in NYC alone. Which is a little scary but also quite positive in that the severe case and death rate is quite a bit lower than is being widely reported (which I've been saying for weeks).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 01:12:09 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:50:54 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 23, 2020, 12:33:30 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:23:28 PM

More than 21% of New York City residents tested for antibodies tested positive.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-21-of-new-york-city-residents-tested-for-coronavirus-antibodies-were-positive-says-gov-cuomo-2020-04-23?mod=home-page

Again, I think this shows that this has been spreading far longer than previously thought and that the number of cases has been vastly undercounted. Or that the testing is completely unreliable.

If I were a betting woman, I'd say the former more than the latter.  (There are always potential false positives and false negatives in testing).  I am definitely in favor of ramping up antibody testing in a YUGE way.  However, we still don't know how long a person may have antibodies after exposure and if that actually conveys protection against reinfection.

I hope it's the former, though like you said testing isn't going to be 100% accurate. If that 20% rate carries over all of NYC, that means about 1.6 million people have had it in NYC alone. Which is a little scary but also quite positive in that the severe case and death rate is quite a bit lower than is being widely reported (which I've been saying for weeks).

Im with both of you on the former.  More and more evidence is coming out about this virus being here before we realized.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2020, 01:21:45 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on April 23, 2020, 12:22:50 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 12:19:39 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on April 23, 2020, 12:12:10 PM

.... the Ministry of Culture seems to have a - still in the works - blueprint for re-opening some venues...

That's an actual position?

Grossly translating it would be Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Showbusiness.

That's our main national resource, even if sometimes we don't treat it as such.

Dude, sign me up for that job.  Where is that?  Italy?  "Stadler" is Italian, I promise.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 23, 2020, 12:23:28 PM

More than 21% of New York City residents tested for antibodies tested positive.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-21-of-new-york-city-residents-tested-for-coronavirus-antibodies-were-positive-says-gov-cuomo-2020-04-23?mod=home-page

Again, I think this shows that this has been spreading far longer than previously thought and that the number of cases has been vastly undercounted. Or that the testing is completely unreliable.

That is some good news. I am not involved myself, but I am hearing corona antibody tests are specific (using ELISA, I think NY does that?), so the cases confirmed are likely true cases. In the UK, for example, they report sensitivity issues, but any false negative would not detract from the numbers reported.

As far as I am aware there has been little validation in regards to what the data means beyond that someone has been infected. For example, at what concentration of antibodies specific to corona is a person expected to be immune?

For the record, I am involved in viral molecular diagnostics (HPV in my case) and some of my colleagues are doing these techniques, I myself have done antibody testing in the past, so I do have some insight in the technical processes of these tests.



On a sidenote, I do not necessarily agree with the "far longer" (emphasis on far, it is not unlikely the virus was earlier than reported) part though. If the virus does, say spread 3 times from one patient, things can increase exponentially very quickly over a matter of a few weeks of less, depending on the highly variable incubation time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 23, 2020, 02:41:28 PM

I thought I had read that some are saying the virus could have been in the US as early as September.

My wife and I both came down with something around late August. We had fever, aches and fatigue. I mean it felt like somebody had flattened us with a baseball bat. I never had shortness of breath but who-doggy, that virus was mean.

It makes me wonder......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 03:01:44 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 23, 2020, 02:41:28 PM

I thought I had read that some are saying the virus could have been in the US as early as September.

My wife and I both came down with something around late August. We had fever, aches and fatigue. I mean it felt like somebody had flattened us with a baseball bat. I never had shortness of breath but who-doggy, that virus was mean.

It makes me wonder......

That would be interesting. It is a possibility that a pandemic strain/variant arrived later through mutations. The road of evolution of a virus is a long one and animals like our beloved cats and dogs can carry it as well.

But from what I gather the wave of hospitals flooding can be traced back chronically fairly well (though who knows what China was doing, given ln their track record of silencing matters). Initially over here they were able to track the virus due to small mutations (they could see if the patient got it in Italy or somewhere else, for example).

Still, the flu is common but can randomly hit very hard. I went to the doctor a couple of years back because I thought it was dying and she nearly rolled her eyes, said it was flu and sent me home  :lol Apparently because many people had the same thought as me. Coughed up blood for like a week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 23, 2020, 04:06:07 PM

Coughing up blood is some serious shit.  People do die from the flu.  I'm glad you can laugh about it now, but if it were me, I probably would've been pissed.

"Don't roll your eyes at me, I'm dying here!"
"It's the flu, go home!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 23, 2020, 04:53:03 PM

I'm not familiar with people coughing blood from the flu, but that sounds really serious and definitely not a rolling of the eyes matter IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 23, 2020, 05:05:48 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 23, 2020, 04:06:07 PM

Coughing up blood is some serious shit.  People do die from the flu.  I'm glad you can laugh about it now, but if it were me, I probably would've been pissed.

"Don't roll your eyes at me, I'm dying here!"
"It's the flu, go home!"

Oh, I was pissed back then for sure, but I can now laugh at just how absurd that stand in doctor was (my own doctor, well, had the flu) and my housemate had a similar experience with the same doctor. I believe he filed a complaint even. But in her defense she did do some checkups, she listened to my lungs and did some measurements and there was no reason to believe there was something significantly wrong there. Presumably it was some minor wound somewhere in my respiratory tract that kept opening up. It was not a lot of blood, but still scary as hell (which is why I obviously went).

I always have bad luck with temporary replacement doctors. In fact, a few weeks back when I was ill, based on the symptoms the medical center requested me to come for a couple of tests. And when I was there, the doctor actually berated me for coming with corona-like symptoms! Then, a day later, they requested me to come again… And when I was there, they did the same tests. But in their defense, it was probably chaos. A couple of my friends/singing partners are doctors (internist and general practicioners), and their workload is most certainly very high now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 23, 2020, 08:22:10 PM

Well, if it's only a little blood...

Still, that's scary.  I'm glad it was just a bad flu.


In other news, the Governor of Illinois has just extended the official lockdown through the end of May.  He issued a statement earlier, mentioned that opening things up too soon is a greater danger than just sitting tight.  Yeah, it's a pain, but we're going another month, minimum.  I agree with him.  I know some people are climbing the walls at this point.  I feel sorry for them, but I'm not among them, so for now I'm just gonna consider myself lucky that I haven't been impacted any worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on April 23, 2020, 09:01:47 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 23, 2020, 08:22:10 PM

Well, if it's only a little blood...

Still, that's scary.  I'm glad it was just a bad flu.


In other news, the Governor of Illinois has just extended the official lockdown through the end of May.  He issued a statement earlier, mentioned that opening things up too soon is a greater danger than just sitting tight.  Yeah, it's a pain, but we're going another month, minimum.  I agree with him.  I know some people are climbing the walls at this point.  I feel sorry for them, but I'm not among them, so for now I'm just gonna consider myself lucky that I haven't been impacted any worse.

Logical move, but will be unpopular for economic reasons.  Here in Tennessee, officially the stay at home ends April 30th, with soft openings.  The 4 major cities are going to be more cautious than what the governor is suggesting.

I am concerned that we are opening up too soon.  Sure another month would hurt, but it could be much worse if the cases spike.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 23, 2020, 09:32:38 PM

Is there a site tracking all the Stay Home orders, just for curiosity sake?

WA's is set to end May 04, but I have a hunch it will be extended. UW's models (for what they are worth) have late May as a safe end date. Governor has said the opening will be in phases which it seems is the appropriate route other states are going. Being one of those who are making money on unemployment that I do working, (and selfishly enjoying the time at home) I hope it is extended.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 24, 2020, 06:39:36 AM

Our government has also extended the rules up until the 20th of may, with some loosening here and there.Thankfully, the statistics of the amount of cases/hospitalizations/deaths are looking better.

Schools will open the 11th of may and children under 12 are allowed to do teamsports (training). Older children will get more room to do certain activities (still with social distancing mandatory). Those are the main changes.

The most drastic recent announcement is this one: There will be no (major) events during the entire summer, up until the 1st of september. This means no concerts, all festivals cancelled, no football matches etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 24, 2020, 07:48:13 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

Given the interconnectedness of things today I would say you are right. There are other plagues, Spanish Flu, WWI and WWII that would certainly be up there as well. I highly doubt Covid-19 will end up being as deadly as those, but economically and just with the instant information and communication of today, it's affecting people like few things have before.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

emtee, you've been knocking it out of the park here for the last week or so with your insight and observations (not sarcasm, not hyperbole; I mean that sincerely.  I admire your practicality and levelheadedness), so this isn't critique or argument, but I'm always sketchy about these kinds of discussions.   I think it's very hard to make any assessments like that in the heat of the battle.   (It's partly why - well, second to the implicit moral bullying - that I think the idea that "I'm on the right side of history" is so full of shit)   I know early on people were comparing this to 9/11, and that's not even close at this point, even for New Yorkers and those in the Beltway.  The Mets played baseball 10 days later in Shea.  I'd be curious to ask those that have been through WWII, for example.  That may have been different on a day-to-day basis, but it went on - at least so far - a lot longer.   

I also wouldn't rule out Kiss's appearance on the U.S.S. Intrepid announcing their makeup reunion.   ;)  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 24, 2020, 08:22:23 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

Well, for sure it's gonna do down as the most historical and defining event of our era, even more than 9/11.

9/11 was tragic, unprecedented and changed the world, but terrorists attacks have happened before and after, eventually in a generation or two it will be just another terrorist attack, albeit one of the most famous ones. Kinda like Kennedy's killing, of course we all learn it at school because it's important and will be forever famous, but I'm sure everyone born after that doesn't feel the immense shock that must have been felt in 1963.

This pandemic will go down in history, the entire interconnected, super developed and globalized world got completely paralyzed because of a virus. In 2100 there will be people watching videos of the desert towns on YouTube, just like we watch the very first black and white videos made at the beginning of 1900.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 24, 2020, 08:23:07 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

Hard to say and compare. We don't know to what this all will lead on the longer term. But it is most definitely extremely impactful and up there, it will change some/many things about society and globalization permenantly.

I hope this will lead to a better prepared world for the next major pathogen or crisis. I think those are inevitable. Climate change is looming as well. The frontlines of mother nature, our oceans, are really not looking good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:40:09 AM

Just shooting the shit here, but will the memory be that expansive?   There aren't going to be the video clips that synopsize the event, like there are of the airliner hole in the side of the North tower as the jet can be seen heading to the South Tower.  Or the fuzzy, smoky image of the Arizona conning tower falling into the harbor.   

I think it will depend on what processes and procedures endure from this.  If we have a box of gloves/masks on our shelf next to our car keys before we go to market, then sure.   I think there's going to be a snap-back, though, that will bring us closer to pre-COVID-19 than we think.   I know people that are now working from home that DON'T want to continue this.  I know there are sales/marketing/customer relations people that are itching to get back on the road, and get back in front of their customers.   Sport and entertainment goes without saying; when you can put an artist in 25 stadiums for a summer and gross $250 million, that's going to happen again short of some legislative mandate.   The sports betting industry is something like $40 billion globally, and with more and more states planning to open up that avenue pre-COVID-19, there will be a push to put players back in uniform.   I think the more those things happen in a way that resembles the past, the less impact we're going to feel 100 years from now.   

Does anyone ever go through airport security now and while putting back their 3.3 oz. container of mouthwash ruminate on the game-changing terrorist attacks in New York and DC (or are they more likely motherfucking the TSA person that made them pull off their clearly all-leather, no metal belt?)

I know for me here in CT, I'm using Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods (the American Indian twin casinos in our southeast part of the state) as the bellweather for when it ACTUALLY is safe and for what the impacts might be.  Right now, they're only committing to be closed through April 30th, and there has been no formal announcement of changes to any processes/procedures for conducting tribe business. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 24, 2020, 08:45:48 AM

Historical yes.  The only thing I can compare it to would be the polio epidemic but we've surpassed those numbers with covid.

But one thing we can all take away from this is that we all do actually have the ability to make changes that matter.  Despite the handful of angry protesters, we ARE flattening the curve.  And when it comes to issues like climate change it shows me that we can make a real difference.  Now before someone jumps on me, no - I'm not saying shut the economy down to impact climate change.  But look at what a few weeks alone have done for our air quality.  Something to consider.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 24, 2020, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:40:09 AM

Does anyone ever go through airport security now and while putting back their 3.3 oz. container of mouthwash ruminate on the game-changing terrorist attacks in New York and DC (or are they more likely motherfucking the TSA person that made them pull off their clearly all-leather, no metal belt?)

Good point!

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:40:09 AM

I think it will depend on what processes and procedures endure from this.

Well, China stopping the habit of selling whatever thing that was alive and was found in the middle of the jungle in open air markets with sanitary conditions equalling the streets of India after a parade of cows, would even be a start.

Also, people stopping to touch you while they speak to you, crossed fingers for that  :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 24, 2020, 08:52:38 AM

China also "stopped" after the SARS outbreak as well, but somehow that stoppage stopped. Whether that's because the government didn't care once it was out of the public eye or if it was just too difficult to maintain control over I don't know, but I don't think we can take this as an indication that any meaningful change has been made there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 24, 2020, 09:21:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:40:09 AM

Just shooting the shit here, but will the memory be that expansive?   There aren't going to be the video clips that synopsize the event, like there are of the airliner hole in the side of the North tower as the jet can be seen heading to the South Tower.  Or the fuzzy, smoky image of the Arizona conning tower falling into the harbor.   

I think it will depend on what processes and procedures endure from this.  If we have a box of gloves/masks on our shelf next to our car keys before we go to market, then sure.   I think there's going to be a snap-back, though, that will bring us closer to pre-COVID-19 than we think.   I know people that are now working from home that DON'T want to continue this.  I know there are sales/marketing/customer relations people that are itching to get back on the road, and get back in front of their customers.   Sport and entertainment goes without saying; when you can put an artist in 25 stadiums for a summer and gross $250 million, that's going to happen again short of some legislative mandate.   The sports betting industry is something like $40 billion globally, and with more and more states planning to open up that avenue pre-COVID-19, there will be a push to put players back in uniform.   I think the more those things happen in a way that resembles the past, the less impact we're going to feel 100 years from now.   

Does anyone ever go through airport security now and while putting back their 3.3 oz. container of mouthwash ruminate on the game-changing terrorist attacks in New York and DC (or are they more likely motherfucking the TSA person that made them pull off their clearly all-leather, no metal belt?)

I know for me here in CT, I'm using Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods (the American Indian twin casinos in our southeast part of the state) as the bellweather for when it ACTUALLY is safe and for what the impacts might be.  Right now, they're only committing to be closed through April 30th, and there has been no formal announcement of changes to any processes/procedures for conducting tribe business.

I think there is a good chance many countries force/encourage companies to produce essential goods in their own country. That might have a major impact on how certain large companies trade globally and how dependent economies are on each other. This crisis is also laying bare some major cultural/governmental differences between EU counties, for example, I would not be surprised if there is a fallout. To what degree, who knows.

I agree many thing will go back to a certain "normal" level though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

emtee, you've been knocking it out of the park here for the last week or so with your insight and observations (not sarcasm, not hyperbole; I mean that sincerely.  I admire your practicality and levelheadedness), so this isn't critique or argument, but I'm always sketchy about these kinds of discussions.   I think it's very hard to make any assessments like that in the heat of the battle.   (It's partly why - well, second to the implicit moral bullying - that I think the idea that "I'm on the right side of history" is so full of shit)   I know early on people were comparing this to 9/11, and that's not even close at this point, even for New Yorkers and those in the Beltway.  The Mets played baseball 10 days later in Shea.  I'd be curious to ask those that have been through WWII, for example.  That may have been different on a day-to-day basis, but it went on - at least so far - a lot longer.   

I also wouldn't rule out Kiss's appearance on the U.S.S. Intrepid announcing their makeup reunion.   ;)  :)

I agree about being in the middle of it and having the discussion.

What led me to pontificate about it is the totality of scale. Minus a tribe or two in the jungles of Borneo. Every single person has been impacted in some way. The big wars would be up there for sure. And for those who are religious, the flood would certainly be way up there. Other horrific events will have caused more death. So in terms of global impact--physical, emotional, economic--It's worth consideration. And, we're not nearly past it yet. Disney is saying they won't open up until 2021. My mind is screwy that's all.  I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 09:51:21 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

HA!   In the past tense, that may as well be my epitaph!   :) :)

(I even have a vague sort of hope that when I die, there's a cosmic library I can go to to get answers to anything I want:  who killed JFK?  Did Jimmy Page really play on those early Kinks records?  Did Jennifer really wait until after we broke up to start dating that douchebag? Who is "You're So Vain" about?   Haha!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 24, 2020, 09:54:00 AM

Oliver Stone
Don't know, you really got me there
Brad Pitt told me she waited
You probably think that song is about you

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on April 24, 2020, 09:58:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 09:51:21 AM

Who is "You're So Vain" about?

*writes song about you*

*says you're vain for thinking it's about you*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 24, 2020, 10:13:17 AM

Coz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on April 24, 2020, 10:15:09 AM

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3ornjSL2sBcPflIDiU/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 10:18:26 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on April 24, 2020, 09:54:00 AM

Oliver Stone
Don't know, you really got me there
Brad Pitt told me she waited
You probably think that song is about you

Brilliant!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 10:28:10 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

emtee, you've been knocking it out of the park here for the last week or so with your insight and observations (not sarcasm, not hyperbole; I mean that sincerely.  I admire your practicality and levelheadedness), so this isn't critique or argument, but I'm always sketchy about these kinds of discussions.   I think it's very hard to make any assessments like that in the heat of the battle.   (It's partly why - well, second to the implicit moral bullying - that I think the idea that "I'm on the right side of history" is so full of shit)   I know early on people were comparing this to 9/11, and that's not even close at this point, even for New Yorkers and those in the Beltway.  The Mets played baseball 10 days later in Shea.  I'd be curious to ask those that have been through WWII, for example.  That may have been different on a day-to-day basis, but it went on - at least so far - a lot longer.   

I also wouldn't rule out Kiss's appearance on the U.S.S. Intrepid announcing their makeup reunion.   ;)  :)

I agree about being in the middle of it and having the discussion.

What led me to pontificate about it is the totality of scale Minus a tribe or two in the jungles of Borneo. Every single person has been impacted in some way. The big wars would be up there for sure. And for those who are religious, the flood would certainly be way up there. Other horrific events will have caused more death. So in terms of global impact--physical, emotional, economic--It's worth consideration. And, we're not nearly past it yet. Disney is saying they won't open up until 2021. My mind is screwy that's all.  I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

This.  The scale is different than most anything else.  Also you said "one of the most" rather than "the absolute most" and I certainly think it qualifies as "one of." Even if we go back to 100% normal, this is a pretty collective experience that we've all had. 

To Stadler about the masks - when this is either over or they've increased production of masks (and Lysol) so ordinary people can get them, I'll absolutely be getting a stash.  A pandemic kit, so to speak.  Masks, gloves, cleaning supplies.  And I hope I'll never need them but I sure would feel better right now if I'd done this before.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 24, 2020, 12:02:24 PM

Quote from: Sir GuitarCozmo on April 24, 2020, 09:58:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 09:51:21 AM

Who is "You're So Vain" about?

*writes song about you*

*says you're vain for thinking it's about you*

 :lol  Good to see ya Coz!!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 12:06:37 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 10:28:10 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

emtee, you've been knocking it out of the park here for the last week or so with your insight and observations (not sarcasm, not hyperbole; I mean that sincerely.  I admire your practicality and levelheadedness), so this isn't critique or argument, but I'm always sketchy about these kinds of discussions.   I think it's very hard to make any assessments like that in the heat of the battle.   (It's partly why - well, second to the implicit moral bullying - that I think the idea that "I'm on the right side of history" is so full of shit)   I know early on people were comparing this to 9/11, and that's not even close at this point, even for New Yorkers and those in the Beltway.  The Mets played baseball 10 days later in Shea.  I'd be curious to ask those that have been through WWII, for example.  That may have been different on a day-to-day basis, but it went on - at least so far - a lot longer.   

I also wouldn't rule out Kiss's appearance on the U.S.S. Intrepid announcing their makeup reunion.   ;)  :)

I agree about being in the middle of it and having the discussion.

What led me to pontificate about it is the totality of scale Minus a tribe or two in the jungles of Borneo. Every single person has been impacted in some way. The big wars would be up there for sure. And for those who are religious, the flood would certainly be way up there. Other horrific events will have caused more death. So in terms of global impact--physical, emotional, economic--It's worth consideration. And, we're not nearly past it yet. Disney is saying they won't open up until 2021. My mind is screwy that's all.  I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

This.  The scale is different than most anything else.  Also you said "one of the most" rather than "the absolute most" and I certainly think it qualifies as "one of." Even if we go back to 100% normal, this is a pretty collective experience that we've all had. 

To Stadler about the masks - when this is either over or they've increased production of masks (and Lysol) so ordinary people can get them, I'll absolutely be getting a stash.  A pandemic kit, so to speak.  Masks, gloves, cleaning supplies.  And I hope I'll never need them but I sure would feel better right now if I'd done this before.

I know it's impossible to predict, but assuming things reopen, say, on September 1st, can you see yourself six months later still casually putting on a mask to go to Home Depot or the grocery store? 

People still don't wear seatbelts, they still smoke, they speed (well, I speed)...  I'm having a hard time thinking that gloves/masks are going to become de rigueur. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 24, 2020, 12:13:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 12:06:37 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 10:28:10 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

emtee, you've been knocking it out of the park here for the last week or so with your insight and observations (not sarcasm, not hyperbole; I mean that sincerely.  I admire your practicality and levelheadedness), so this isn't critique or argument, but I'm always sketchy about these kinds of discussions.   I think it's very hard to make any assessments like that in the heat of the battle.   (It's partly why - well, second to the implicit moral bullying - that I think the idea that "I'm on the right side of history" is so full of shit)   I know early on people were comparing this to 9/11, and that's not even close at this point, even for New Yorkers and those in the Beltway.  The Mets played baseball 10 days later in Shea.  I'd be curious to ask those that have been through WWII, for example.  That may have been different on a day-to-day basis, but it went on - at least so far - a lot longer.   

I also wouldn't rule out Kiss's appearance on the U.S.S. Intrepid announcing their makeup reunion.   ;)  :)

I agree about being in the middle of it and having the discussion.

What led me to pontificate about it is the totality of scale Minus a tribe or two in the jungles of Borneo. Every single person has been impacted in some way. The big wars would be up there for sure. And for those who are religious, the flood would certainly be way up there. Other horrific events will have caused more death. So in terms of global impact--physical, emotional, economic--It's worth consideration. And, we're not nearly past it yet. Disney is saying they won't open up until 2021. My mind is screwy that's all.  I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

This.  The scale is different than most anything else.  Also you said "one of the most" rather than "the absolute most" and I certainly think it qualifies as "one of." Even if we go back to 100% normal, this is a pretty collective experience that we've all had. 

To Stadler about the masks - when this is either over or they've increased production of masks (and Lysol) so ordinary people can get them, I'll absolutely be getting a stash.  A pandemic kit, so to speak.  Masks, gloves, cleaning supplies.  And I hope I'll never need them but I sure would feel better right now if I'd done this before.

I know it's impossible to predict, but assuming things reopen, say, on September 1st, can you see yourself six months later still casually putting on a mask to go to Home Depot or the grocery store? 

People still don't wear seatbelts, they still smoke, they speed (well, I speed)...  I'm having a hard time thinking that gloves/masks are going to become de rigueur.

I think we'll see masks in good numbers for at least the remainder of 2020, and I think there will definitely be people wearing them once this is completely wrapped up. I don't think it'll be many though. What I do think we're going to see more widely adopted is the availability of hand sanitizing stations in all types of business. People are going to like the feeling of being able to make sure their carriage or basket is clean. I don't see that going away after this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 24, 2020, 12:35:07 PM

What do you all make of these reporting sites and practices where munis are asking you to report violators of the local stay-at-home orders? Ok to call on a couple people shooting hoops at the park, or peeking over your fence and seeing your neighbor having a BBQ with some friends?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 24, 2020, 12:36:58 PM

Quote

I think we'll see masks in good numbers for at least the remainder of 2020, and I think there will definitely be people wearing them once this is completely wrapped up. I don't think it'll be many though. What I do think we're going to see more widely adopted is the availability of hand sanitizing stations in all types of business. People are going to like the feeling of being able to make sure their carriage or basket is clean. I don't see that going away after this.

Being the intimate species that we are, we'll eventually get back to shaking hands, hugging family and friends. Kissing people we don't know on the cheek and good a olé' fashion 'grabem by the pussy'. Once they get a vaccine then things will calm down but we're still in the 1st quarter of this mess. I mean there are still more unknowns than knowns

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 24, 2020, 12:37:28 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 24, 2020, 12:35:07 PM

What do you all make of these reporting sites and practices where munis are asking you to report violators of the local stay-at-home orders? Ok to call on a couple people shooting hoops at the park, or peeking over your fence and seeing your neighbor having a BBQ with some friends?

As someone who hates snitches, I wish these Gladys Kravitzes would confine their whining to their living rooms and poor Abners. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 01:31:14 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 12:37:28 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 24, 2020, 12:35:07 PM

What do you all make of these reporting sites and practices where munis are asking you to report violators of the local stay-at-home orders? Ok to call on a couple people shooting hoops at the park, or peeking over your fence and seeing your neighbor having a BBQ with some friends?

As someone who hates snitches, I wish these Gladys Kravitzes would confine their whining to their living rooms and poor Abners. :)

Good reference, though, 'specially for a relative youngster!  (and you went deep with Abner!!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 24, 2020, 01:33:08 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 12:37:28 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 24, 2020, 12:35:07 PM

What do you all make of these reporting sites and practices where munis are asking you to report violators of the local stay-at-home orders? Ok to call on a couple people shooting hoops at the park, or peeking over your fence and seeing your neighbor having a BBQ with some friends?

As someone who hates snitches, I wish these Gladys Kravitzes would confine their whining to their living rooms and poor Abners. :)

Agreed.  People need to mind their own fucking business which means following guidelines and orders according to the state and local authorities.  In the past 5 weeks, I've always been at home accept weekly trips to the grocery store, ordering take out for lunch and bringing my parents supplies when needed.  My thing is, if I did see any violators, that's their problem.  Nothing I can do accept stay clear and distance myself.  That's all anyone can do.  Let them take that risk of possibly getting sick and passing it on to others who also violate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 24, 2020, 01:36:37 PM

Amen, brotha.

Stadler, I have a soft spot in my heart for so many old sitcoms, check my post in the 'what are you watching' thread in Movies/TV about I Love Lucy, haha :)

Has anybody bought any face masks online at etsy? I just ordered a couple of galaxy-printed masks from there, and I might order a couple more over the weekend. Yeah they're no 3M N95s, but it's better than nothing and I'm far more likely to wear them in public if they look cool or stylish. I also have these Buff brand bandana/balaclava type things that I wear over my neck and half of my face - wrap 2 layers of paper towels around the inside and I'm set.

Might hang out on my porch this weekend with some beers looking like a Mad Max villain.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 24, 2020, 01:54:49 PM

Still wearing masks in September would be a metric of duration, which would certainly be one measurement. Given a series of worst-case-scenarios, we could be talking about food rationing in September, while still wearing masks and locked at home. The UN is warning of a potential famine of "biblical" proportions. Many things would have to unfold horribly for that to occur but we already have several pork facilities shut down and farmers in the south tilling crops back into the soil because there is no mechanism for them to be sold. Additionally, there are large numbers of grocery store employees getting sick all across the country. How much will we have to pay people to risk their lives so they can stock and bag groceries? If large numbers say "eff it" that is going to create more pressure on the system.

Another troubling issue would be availability of money. Most banks are closed except for the ATM. if people start to freak and overact, there could be a mad dash for cash. This is where civil unrest could raise its ugly head.

Again, just shooting from the hip. I certainly hope we get a vaccine that is effective and within a year we've left it behind us. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about the 'worst-case-scenario' potential.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 24, 2020, 02:02:26 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 12:06:37 PM

People still don't wear seatbelts

So that's where the high number of deaths in motor vehicle accidents comes from!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 24, 2020, 02:43:24 PM

What do the rules of stay-at-home orders in the US entail? And is it different between states?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on April 24, 2020, 03:13:44 PM

Quote from: Elite on April 24, 2020, 02:02:26 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 12:06:37 PM

People still don't wear seatbelts

So that's where the high number of deaths in motor vehicle accidents comes from!

Everyone who doesn't wear a seatbelt always justifies it with THAT ONE GUY they know who definitely would have died if he had been wearing one. Discounting, obviously, the much higher number of people who do die.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 24, 2020, 03:19:30 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on April 24, 2020, 02:43:24 PM

What do the rules of stay-at-home orders in the US entail? And is it different between states?

Yes they are different as they fall under the purview of each state's constitution to be directed by the governor under emergency powers (that is a very oversimplified explanation). Some city mayors have issues "orders" but to my understanding the do not carry any weight as they do not hold any emergency declaration powers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on April 24, 2020, 03:19:35 PM

I work for the State of Tennessee and we just received a revised date of at least May 26th to work from home for those that can.   

Below is from the announcement:

Workforce Recalibration
As we prepare to operate business in a post pandemic environment, we must be prepared for the ‘new normal’ that emerges. Leveraging work from home and online services is key going forward. Not only will this help the State of Tennessee reboot from the current crisis, it will also prepare our workforce for the future.

I told my wife and she did not look very happy with me working from home long term :D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 24, 2020, 07:56:09 PM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

mrs.jingle?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 24, 2020, 08:15:34 PM

Well they said 5-7 days to get results, but my parents got them in 2 it seems.  Negative  :metal Now what else is wrong is another issue, but we all feel better.  Meanwhile was just gaming with my friend who's wife is a funeral director who has hosted all of my other grandparents funerals and he said his wife was currently working on my grandma.  There's a family only zoom meeting for prayers tomorrow. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 09:09:26 PM

:)  Great news!  So glad to hear that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 09:14:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 12:06:37 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 10:28:10 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

emtee, you've been knocking it out of the park here for the last week or so with your insight and observations (not sarcasm, not hyperbole; I mean that sincerely.  I admire your practicality and levelheadedness), so this isn't critique or argument, but I'm always sketchy about these kinds of discussions.   I think it's very hard to make any assessments like that in the heat of the battle.   (It's partly why - well, second to the implicit moral bullying - that I think the idea that "I'm on the right side of history" is so full of shit)   I know early on people were comparing this to 9/11, and that's not even close at this point, even for New Yorkers and those in the Beltway.  The Mets played baseball 10 days later in Shea.  I'd be curious to ask those that have been through WWII, for example.  That may have been different on a day-to-day basis, but it went on - at least so far - a lot longer.   

I also wouldn't rule out Kiss's appearance on the U.S.S. Intrepid announcing their makeup reunion.   ;)  :)

I agree about being in the middle of it and having the discussion.

What led me to pontificate about it is the totality of scale Minus a tribe or two in the jungles of Borneo. Every single person has been impacted in some way. The big wars would be up there for sure. And for those who are religious, the flood would certainly be way up there. Other horrific events will have caused more death. So in terms of global impact--physical, emotional, economic--It's worth consideration. And, we're not nearly past it yet. Disney is saying they won't open up until 2021. My mind is screwy that's all.  I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

This.  The scale is different than most anything else.  Also you said "one of the most" rather than "the absolute most" and I certainly think it qualifies as "one of." Even if we go back to 100% normal, this is a pretty collective experience that we've all had. 

To Stadler about the masks - when this is either over or they've increased production of masks (and Lysol) so ordinary people can get them, I'll absolutely be getting a stash.  A pandemic kit, so to speak.  Masks, gloves, cleaning supplies.  And I hope I'll never need them but I sure would feel better right now if I'd done this before.

I know it's impossible to predict, but assuming things reopen, say, on September 1st, can you see yourself six months later still casually putting on a mask to go to Home Depot or the grocery store? 

People still don't wear seatbelts, they still smoke, they speed (well, I speed)...  I'm having a hard time thinking that gloves/masks are going to become de rigueur.

Not necessarily.  If things reopen and there aren't any relapses and everything seems good, I don't see myself wearing a mask every time I go out in public - not at all.  I just meant that I'd like to get a supply of masks to have on hand.  I never thought about stuff like that before.  I always got just the amount of food I'd need for the week, didn't think about having masks, gloves, extra disinfecting wipes, or anything like that.  Going forward, I want to have that stuff on hand.   That in itself would be a lasting change for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 24, 2020, 09:19:02 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 09:14:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 12:06:37 PM

Quote from: Lethean on April 24, 2020, 10:28:10 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 24, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 24, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

I've been thinking over the last couple days--trying to keep a proper historical perspective--if this might qualify as one of the most globally impactful events since humans have inhabited earth. Probably not but it sure feels like it.

I wouldn't jump to that quite yet - let me chew on that for a few more days/weeks/months - but for modern times? Absolutely, yeah.

emtee, you've been knocking it out of the park here for the last week or so with your insight and observations (not sarcasm, not hyperbole; I mean that sincerely.  I admire your practicality and levelheadedness), so this isn't critique or argument, but I'm always sketchy about these kinds of discussions.   I think it's very hard to make any assessments like that in the heat of the battle.   (It's partly why - well, second to the implicit moral bullying - that I think the idea that "I'm on the right side of history" is so full of shit)   I know early on people were comparing this to 9/11, and that's not even close at this point, even for New Yorkers and those in the Beltway.  The Mets played baseball 10 days later in Shea.  I'd be curious to ask those that have been through WWII, for example.  That may have been different on a day-to-day basis, but it went on - at least so far - a lot longer.   

I also wouldn't rule out Kiss's appearance on the U.S.S. Intrepid announcing their makeup reunion.   ;)  :)

I agree about being in the middle of it and having the discussion.

What led me to pontificate about it is the totality of scale Minus a tribe or two in the jungles of Borneo. Every single person has been impacted in some way. The big wars would be up there for sure. And for those who are religious, the flood would certainly be way up there. Other horrific events will have caused more death. So in terms of global impact--physical, emotional, economic--It's worth consideration. And, we're not nearly past it yet. Disney is saying they won't open up until 2021. My mind is screwy that's all.  I tend to waste too much time thinking about things that I'll never be able to have answers for.

This.  The scale is different than most anything else.  Also you said "one of the most" rather than "the absolute most" and I certainly think it qualifies as "one of." Even if we go back to 100% normal, this is a pretty collective experience that we've all had. 

To Stadler about the masks - when this is either over or they've increased production of masks (and Lysol) so ordinary people can get them, I'll absolutely be getting a stash.  A pandemic kit, so to speak.  Masks, gloves, cleaning supplies.  And I hope I'll never need them but I sure would feel better right now if I'd done this before.

I know it's impossible to predict, but assuming things reopen, say, on September 1st, can you see yourself six months later still casually putting on a mask to go to Home Depot or the grocery store? 

People still don't wear seatbelts, they still smoke, they speed (well, I speed)...  I'm having a hard time thinking that gloves/masks are going to become de rigueur.

Not necessarily.  If things reopen and there aren't any relapses and everything seems good, I don't see myself wearing a mask every time I go out in public - not at all.  I just meant that I'd like to get a supply of masks to have on hand.  I never thought about stuff like that before.  I always got just the amount of food I'd need for the week, didn't think about having masks, gloves, extra disinfecting wipes, or anything like that.  Going forward, I want to have that stuff on hand.   That in itself would be a lasting change for me.

Somehow in this giant quote pyramid about the modern day plague, if you look close enough, you'll see that Stadler slipped in a KISS reference. ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 25, 2020, 04:05:47 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 24, 2020, 08:15:34 PM

Well they said 5-7 days to get results, but my parents got them in 2 it seems.  Negative  :metal Now what else is wrong is another issue, but we all feel better.  Meanwhile was just gaming with my friend who's wife is a funeral director who has hosted all of my other grandparents funerals and he said his wife was currently working on my grandma.  There's a family only zoom meeting for prayers tomorrow.

Great to know!!!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 25, 2020, 05:30:07 AM

Excellent and relieving news, Marc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on April 25, 2020, 11:26:57 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 24, 2020, 08:15:34 PM

Well they said 5-7 days to get results, but my parents got them in 2 it seems.  Negative  :metal Now what else is wrong is another issue, but we all feel better.  Meanwhile was just gaming with my friend who's wife is a funeral director who has hosted all of my other grandparents funerals and he said his wife was currently working on my grandma.  There's a family only zoom meeting for prayers tomorrow.

Great!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 25, 2020, 11:51:44 AM

My wife just got back from the airport, with our daughter who has flown in from college for the next six weeks.  I'm trying to stay optimistic.  I love my daughter, of course, and this is absolutely being done for her, and for my wife.  My daughter's roommate spends all her time at her fiance's place, so she's basically alone in the apartment all the time, which is hell for a college kid.  But she was exposed to everyone at the airport in Virginia, and at Charlotte, NC where she connected to Chicago, and at O'Hare in Chicago.  Three airports, two planes.  In the next 14 days or so, we'll know whether she brought anything with her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on April 25, 2020, 12:29:51 PM

These are not my words but I agree with much of this. Agree or not, its well written

“I was reading some posts for and against reopening the country. One was talking about being selfish and it got me to thinking.

There are those wanting to reopen yet they’re being classified as selfish. There are those that rely on all kinds of people to supply them while they cower in fear at home. Isn’t that being selfish too?

You expect your garbage to be picked up, you expect the grocery store to be open so you can get milk, you expect truck drivers to supply the stores, you expect farmers, meatpackers, fruit and vegetable pickers all to keep food in that grocery store.

You expect Amazon to still ship all the things you’re ordering while you sit at home shopping. You expect the delivery driver to leave it on your doorstep. You expect your phone to work, your power to stay on, and your mail to show up rain, sleet, or shine. And most important, you expect the doctors and nurses to be there if you need them although many of them across the country have been furloughed because their units and services have been shut down while the entire system focuses only on COVID19.

The whole premise of shelter in place is based on the arrogant idea that others must risk their health so you can protect yours. There is nothing virtuous about ignoring the largely invisible army required to allow people to shelter in place.

I know there are some of you that are screaming mad about what I just said but stop and really think about what is allowing you to stay safe in your home.
I truly believe that with some common sense on my part, I could easily go back to life as it was. I want to go to restaurants, I want to shop at the little store just up the road.

And yes, I could catch COVID-19. I could also catch the flu or a cold. I could get run over by a bus. I could get struck by lightning. We take risks everyday. If you choose to stay home, that is absolutely your choice. And please don’t start screaming at me about how I’ll just spread it. Why are you worried? You won’t get it because you’re staying in your home. Are you going to shelter in place every time a new strand of the flu happens?

Our economy can’t withstand much more of this. If our economy collapses, so will the rest of the world’s. If that happens, you will see the rise of tyrants.
I absolutely don’t want people to die...from COVID or anything else. I want people to live.

But sheltering in place is not living.”

A thought provoking read.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 25, 2020, 02:06:27 PM

I'm not going to call anyone selfish for honestly wanting/needing to make a living.  But I think there is an important thing that is not addressed by that post.  The reason we sheltered was to give time to healthcare workers and hospitals so they weren't overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of potentially ill people coming in all at once.  This doesn't happen with the flu.  This doesn't happen with car accidents.  This doesn't happen when lightening strikes a person.  And the parts of the hospitals that had to shut down and had to furlough workers are now starting to get the go ahead to open back up again.  Had we had sufficient PPE, we would not have had to furlough them at all.

No doubt that all of the essential workers have borne the brunt of this hard work.  They should all be applauded and supported.  And people giving up countless of things they wanted to do in order to help keep essential workers safe should also be applauded.  That isn't arrogant.  And this isn't just so people can sit at home shopping.  I could make a list of things I have given up for the greater good - very important things to me - but those things aren't important because I'm not the only one and it isn't just about me.

If our government - feds, states, counties, cities - had been better prepared at the outset, then maybe I could see the point of saying oh it's just like the flu or it's just like getting run over by a bus.  But it isn't.  Those comparisons are not helpful and not accurate.  We are only just now beginning to get testing made available on a large scale.  We are only just now lining up adequate PPE and hospital equipment.  And as we start to ease back out there again, if ICU admissions bounce up or if as is forecasted we have another surge in fall, we are in such a better place preparation-wise.  And THAT was the whole point of this shut down.

The other factor that seems to get lost in all of this back and forth about opening up or not is to consider that while it's easy to suggest those with underlying health conditions and other risk factors "just stay home" until...well until we get a vaccine, I guess...is that those people live with people who care for them.  The disabled kid, the mom undergoing breast cancer, the dad with MS - all of those people live with so-called healthy individuals.  When you consign the elderly and those with health problems to shelter in place indefinitely you also make it near impossible for the caretakers to keep them safe when the rest of us get to go out to a restaurant and a movie.

Cuomo has put it best and says it repeatedly.  It isn't just about me.  It isn't just about you.  It is about we.  We all want to return to some semblance of normal.  We all want to get the economy moving again.  Wanting is fine.  Wanting is normal.  But it's what you and I DO and DON'T DO that will make the difference in the long term.

And one thing I don't want is to go through all of this again in a few months because people couldn't or wouldn't be a little more patient for a little bit longer.  And don't think I don't know that it is easy for me to say that when others are afraid of losing their homes and putting food on the table.  I am very much aware of that.  And those people are not being selfish by wanting to make a living....any more or less than the ones wanting to stay home a little longer are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 25, 2020, 02:24:12 PM

That's a good and well reasoned post. The "it's about we" cuts equally on both sides of the equation. That's why this damn thing is so difficult. Basically, we're screwed no matter what we do.

Also, another meat processing has shut down. This is something we need to monitor. Hunting may become the new trend soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 25, 2020, 03:35:24 PM

Quote from: emtee on April 25, 2020, 02:24:12 PM

Basically, we're screwed no matter what we do.

Pretty much this.

I lean toward reopening sooner rather than later (though not right away) simply because I think an economic collapse or a prolonged recession/depression will negatively impact far more people than Covid will. Plus people being out of work and unable to afford healthcare will cost many thousands of lives as well. It's not a good situation all around. I tend to go toward allowing everyone to make their own decision about the risks they're willing to take.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 25, 2020, 03:45:26 PM

I don't think the conversation should be "reopen" vs "stay closed" as much as how to reopen. Obviously we need to reopen stuff before everything goes to hell. But when Georgia and the like just go all in, it sets a bad example. You can reopen in stages without doing everything at once.

Opening bit by bit is very good if it can be planned well. Just saying everything is open, go about your lives, isn't helpful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 25, 2020, 03:47:03 PM

Speaking to Tick's post, initially there seemed to be an outcry from those who could work from home that everyone should stay home at all costs. Then shortly there was the realization of "crap, how am I going to get food?" So people began to realize that some of us were going to have to go to work in the grocery stores, the factories, drive the delivery trucks, and such, and, hopefully, we began to appreciate those that are willing to work to help the rest of us.

Quote from: emtee on April 25, 2020, 02:24:12 PM

That's a good and well reasoned post. The "it's about we" cuts equally on both sides of the equation.

We are in this together in many ways, but not in others. Some people are out of work, others aren't. Some people are struggling financially, some are losing loved ones, others are in their ivory towers proclaiming we are all in this together.

Quote from: Adami on April 25, 2020, 03:45:26 PM

I don't think the conversation should be "reopen" vs "stay closed" as much as how to reopen. 

Yes very true.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 26, 2020, 04:43:25 AM

@ Tick's post.  Very well worded, and thought provoking indeed.  But flawed and one-sided. 

When society lost the option to address the virus thru 'containment', mitigation was the strategy to not only save lives, but save society (I'm being slightly hyperbolic).  Social/physical distancing was the only way to prevent an even worse situation than we're in now.  At the rate the virus was spreading, there was a doubling of cases/deaths every 6 days.  Now, we don't know what trend we're on with cases since we aren't testing enough, but (global) deaths took over 16 days to go from 100k to 200k.  So, social/physical distancing is literally saving society from a bigger catastrophe.  We wouldn't have anything to reopen if we hadn't abated the spread - we'd be at over 1M deaths if we weren't engaging in the 'shutdown' measures that we are.

Quote from: emtee on April 25, 2020, 02:24:12 PM

Basically, we're screwed no matter what we do.

Exactly... physical distancing is the least worst option.  Re-opening may solve the problems that ail some right now, but it creates bigger problems.  My view is that this is like chemo for society for a cancer at stage 2.  Yeah, it blows, and we're getting sicker because of the treatment.  But, we will get better.  If we don't do it, we're going to get a whole helluva lot worse.

Quote from: Adami on April 25, 2020, 03:45:26 PM

I don't think the conversation should be "reopen" vs "stay closed" as much as how to reopen. 

Yup.  Doing small things a couple of weeks at a time - so the effects can be seen and measured - is the way to go.  I thought the below was a well-reasoned plan.  Sure, New Brunswick is a small province, but in that regard it's a good place to test some of these re-open measures.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/covid-19-recovery-plan-new-brunswick-blaine-higgs-1.5543682

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 04:55:45 AM

We have handled this whole thing pretty well down here in Australia compared to other places.  My state is already starting to lift restrictions.  Besides standing my whole crew down at work, I've honestly really enjoyed this last month.  I'm not a social butterfly anyway so nothing much changes for me, but it's easy for me to say as I haven't lost my job.  I'm getting paid the same for doing much less.  To me, it's a perfect excuse to be the people hating introvert that I am.

Saying all that, I don't really have much of a viewpoint on this, and never really have through this whole thing.  If you were looking at Australia alone, the measures we've taken considering the infection rate is way over the top, but looking at the rest of the world, it seems we as a nation have contained this well and have taken appropriate action.

I feel for the economy though, things won't recover for a long time, if at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 26, 2020, 05:04:03 AM

Finnish grocery stores using new handles for forearm to avoid COVID-19 (https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/finnish-grocery-stores-using-new-handles-for-forearm-to-avoid-covid-19-1.4909771)

(https://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.4909778.1587694031!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 26, 2020, 05:11:45 AM

Quote from: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 04:55:45 AM

Saying all that, I don't really have much of a viewpoint on this, and never really have through this whole thing.  If you were looking at Australia alone, the measures we've taken considering the infection rate is way over the top, but looking at the rest of the world, it seems we as a nation have contained this well and have taken appropriate action.

That's precisely the point. A containment plan is successful when the restrictions used seem an exageration and an over reaction. The low number of deaths happened precisely because the restrictions were so severe to the point that they looked like an exageration.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 26, 2020, 05:36:18 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 26, 2020, 05:11:45 AM

Quote from: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 04:55:45 AM

Saying all that, I don't really have much of a viewpoint on this, and never really have through this whole thing.  If you were looking at Australia alone, the measures we've taken considering the infection rate is way over the top, but looking at the rest of the world, it seems we as a nation have contained this well and have taken appropriate action.

That's precisely the point. A containment plan is successful when the restrictions used seem an exageration and an over reaction. The low number of deaths happened precisely because the restrictions were so severe to the point that they looked like an exageration.

*clicks Like*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 05:54:54 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 26, 2020, 05:11:45 AM

Quote from: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 04:55:45 AM

Saying all that, I don't really have much of a viewpoint on this, and never really have through this whole thing.  If you were looking at Australia alone, the measures we've taken considering the infection rate is way over the top, but looking at the rest of the world, it seems we as a nation have contained this well and have taken appropriate action.

That's precisely the point. A containment plan is successful when the restrictions used seem an exageration and an over reaction. The low number of deaths happened precisely because the restrictions were so severe to the point that they looked like an exageration.

Oh yeah, that's my take on it too.  We've had the luxury of seeing what's coming from other parts of the world if we didn't take these actions when we did. Our restrictions weren't even that severe compared to other parts of the world, but they were exagerrated enough for the amount of cases.  With people playing along with the governments request for the most part, it's stamped it on the head very quickly. 

I was skeptical at the start and thought it would never come to this, but in actual fact, Australia could have taken the next over the top step and put the country in total lockdown for the two weeks they were threatening and have people not even allowed outside and we'd probably be back operating by now IMO.  Saying that, the government didn't opt for a complete lockdown and did allow people outside and to get groceries to I believe give us the benefit of the doubt to do the right thing on our own.  We still had a slight amount of freedom and giving us that respect made us do the right thing and get this under control.

I see Tick's point of view, but I see Chad's too.  Basically, as emtee said, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.  At least for us, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bolsters on April 26, 2020, 06:47:27 AM

Quote from: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 04:55:45 AM

We have handled this whole thing pretty well down here in Australia compared to other places.

The whole Ruby Princess debacle was a massive fuck up, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 26, 2020, 08:26:09 AM

Question for those in the field--if you can become re-infected, which I take to mean the antibodies don't produce sufficient immunity--how does a vaccine protect us?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 01:37:51 PM

Quote from: Bolsters on April 26, 2020, 06:47:27 AM

Quote from: wolfking on April 26, 2020, 04:55:45 AM

We have handled this whole thing pretty well down here in Australia compared to other places.

The whole Ruby Princess debacle was a massive fuck up, though.

Absolutely agree.  If this didn't happen, we'd be in a much better position again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 26, 2020, 03:19:24 PM

Thanks everyone who had kind words for my family through all this.  Grandma's funeral ceremony yesterday was really odd, but it kind of worked all things considered.  The family was able to get a priest to come in to the funeral home and we got a zoom call with the funeral home owner to join and use his phone to show us grandma in the casket in the funeral home.  A familiar place to the family as we've had a few funerals here over the years. Had all the cousins/aunts/uncles on the call and he walked into the room and showed everything as he slowly approached grandma.  Showed the casket and then the priest did some prayers, very similar to a wake really. It was about 15 minutes long and we all got to see Grandma "together".  Afterwards we followed up with our own video conference to just chat and hang together.  It certainly doesn't replace real life being there for someone or the family, but all things considered.. it helped I think.  It felt like some closure and while weird through video, it was better than just a burial and never to be seen again.  It was definitely a weird experience and super shitty all around, but afterwards I felt a bit better I think.  Anyway, just sharing the harsh reality of the world right now.

In other news, one of my best friend's grandpa just passed away.  Also from corona in a nursing home in NJ.  One week after being confirmed positive.  Very similar to my grandma so I totally know what he's going through and it sucks, and it's difficult, and it's really a totally different way of dealing with the dead.  It still seems so surreal in many ways, worst being that people die and the loved ones can't be there to help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 26, 2020, 03:23:21 PM

Gee Marc, a terrible time made worse. Maybe next year in the anniversary, you could have a real nice celebration of life.
It's tough not being able to get the family together for this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 26, 2020, 03:26:17 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 26, 2020, 03:23:21 PM

Gee Marc, a terrible time made worse. Maybe next year in the anniversary, you could have a real nice celebration of life.
It's tough not being able to get the family together for this.

Yea, we plan on doing that.  We discussed some ideas afterwards, maybe we can do something at the end of summer.  Who knows.  That's another issue. When even will be an appropriate time to get everyone together?  Sucks even more my parents being in Florida. At least my Mom seems to be doing better.  I think a lot of that is mental for her and just getting a negative test helped with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 06:33:29 AM

Very curious why meat packing plants are getting hit so hard? I'm assuming it's a lot of close together workers and not great sanitation? Makes me feel not so great about the meat we buy.

Good thing we got a 1/4 of beef a few weeks ago from a local farmer and butcher. We're set for several months on beef. I'm fairly well stocked on chicken at the moment too. But I suspect the meat supply is going to be a little light for a while.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 27, 2020, 07:04:11 AM

Many interesting sidebar headlines resulting from this.

For the first time since 1957, Miami has gone 7 weeks without a murder.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 27, 2020, 07:10:48 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 25, 2020, 11:51:44 AM

My wife just got back from the airport, with our daughter who has flown in from college for the next six weeks.  I'm trying to stay optimistic.  I love my daughter, of course, and this is absolutely being done for her, and for my wife.  My daughter's roommate spends all her time at her fiance's place, so she's basically alone in the apartment all the time, which is hell for a college kid.  But she was exposed to everyone at the airport in Virginia, and at Charlotte, NC where she connected to Chicago, and at O'Hare in Chicago.  Three airports, two planes.  In the next 14 days or so, we'll know whether she brought anything with her.

My stepdaughter is flying in from NC on Wednesday, and I'm not going to lie:  I'm a little nervous.  I've not been panicking with this - I went to Home Depot last weekend (twice), the wife went to Big Y this weekend, the daughter went to Big Y last night.   But airports.   That's the part that sort of freaks me out.  I'm going to probably set the stage for a little decon come Wednesday morning; wipe down the suitcases, take a quick - maybe not so quick - shower.... safe, sorry, all that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 27, 2020, 07:34:14 AM

On NBC News last night was a feature that it is NOT mandatory to wear a mask entering a plane, or while on a plane.  I mean...WTF?!?!  There's no social distancing for seating as well.???? :facepalm:

West Point is going to fly in graduating cadets, quarantine them for two weeks, and hold their ceremony in June just so one guy can give a speech. :facepalm:

Closer to home: a very good friend and neighbor, whose husband is in a senior home, and who has not seen him for six weeks, ...well, he tested positive over the weekend.  From reading the experiences listed prior to this post as to services, I know what's in store for her, and have shared this with her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 27, 2020, 07:46:36 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 25, 2020, 02:24:12 PM

That's a good and well reasoned post. The "it's about we" cuts equally on both sides of the equation. That's why this damn thing is so difficult. Basically, we're screwed no matter what we do.

Also, another meat processing has shut down. This is something we need to monitor. Hunting may become the new trend soon.

Well, that's really it, isn't it?  Like anything else in a society, democracy, culture, family... whatever societal unit you want to break it down into:  it's all a compromise and a balance.  It's only one data point, but I talked with my cousin this weekend; it's her daughter that is working in a Fairfield County (the CT "hotspot", if we have one) ER, and she's been putting in 12-hour days, 7 days a week for something like six weeks now.  And I asked her if she was nervous, and she (also an ER nurse, though now retired because of MS) said "No, why should I be?  This is her job.  This is what she does."    I don't write that to "take sides", it's just to note that there are multiple ways of looking at things.   

I think more than anything, we're finding our balance right now.  I think as these things go, there WILL be a sort of counter reaction to the shutdown, and there WILL be a sort of rebound to the virus, and we'll continue to hone in until we have it close to right. 

What's most interesting (and in some cases, bothersome) to me is whether we'll find balance in an area that seemingly HASN'T changed; I would have thought there would have been - and still hope for - more compassion for those that don't think like we do.   It's sad to me that so many seem so comfortable falling back into the same tropes (for the record, I'm not even obliquely referring to anyone here, or any specific post):  those that want to reopen are "selfish and greedy, only out for the MONEY!" and those that don't want to are "selfish and expect the government to take care of them forever!"   I'm sure there are people out there that fit those stereotypes but it's not the way the world works.   There is going to be a lot right over the next six months/year, and there's going to be a lot wrong, and my wild fantasy/insane pipe dream is that we can do those things without a ton of recrimination, second-guessing, "I told you so!"'s, politicking, and what not.  We will see.   I'm not very confident in our ability to learn lessons like this ("doubling down" is a far more attractive option) but I'm also trying to practice what I preach, so I've got my fingers crossed!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 27, 2020, 08:56:36 AM

My old man and his friends drove across the state to Indiana to go golfing. Apparently, a whole bunch of people from Illinois went there to go golfing this weekend.

Look, anecdotal evidence and all, but I've never seen so many 'snowflakes' as they call them until I began reading comments on articles, locally, about COVID-19. People are convinced doctors are falsifying records, that this virus is no big deal, that "MUH RITEZ" are being trampled upon, that they won't do anything the government tells them to do, etc. Jesus Christ, people. Never in human history has it been easier to stay at home and stay busy or entertained with work or hobbies or entertainment, and I see so many local vocal Trump supporters acting like this is the end of the USA because they can't go to the local pool or golf.

I bet very few of them ever thought about reading a book.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on April 27, 2020, 08:59:46 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 27, 2020, 08:56:36 AM

I bet very few of them ever thought about reading a book.

Curiously my reading time went from ~2.5 hours on the commute each day to ~30 minutes before bed during the lockdown. However I'm finally able to sleep 8 hours a day so I consider this a good trade for now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 27, 2020, 09:09:21 AM

In Italy we're kinda in an impossible situation, the restrictions are about to be moderately lifted and people are itching to "climb the wall and run away" so to speak; since, however, the contagions are still high, from next week there will be feeble babysteps, and on the social side of things, it will be allowed to "go and visit a relative" without however having a congregation of people or parties.

This of course enraged many people; why should I visit only a relative? It's two months that I'm separated from my boyfriend / girlfriend but I can't see them, however I can see my great-uncle that I haven't seen in years and for whom I don't feel anything?

The problem is that I can't think of a way to allow selected friends or couples to meet without it degenerating into a "out of jail free card" with people taking the advantage to have parties and screw up the contagions all over again. And if couples were allowed to meet, you'd have single people whining that they'd have to stay closed at home, punished for the lack of a significant other.

It's quite a mess to organize the restart of social life, balancing the right needs of people (come on, we all need to get laid by now  :D ) and avoiding creating a loophole that will generate wild parties the moment a restriction is lifted. In an ideal world there would be the time to have sanitary checks for everyone and ascertain which ones are healthy and which ones are asyntomatic and must continue to stay home.

Nevermind, scratch all of that, the government evidently realized the shitstorm and apparently the "relatives" thing can be translated into "legit couples".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 27, 2020, 09:20:38 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 27, 2020, 07:46:36 AM

What's most interesting (and in some cases, bothersome) to me is whether we'll find balance in an area that seemingly HASN'T changed; I would have thought there would have been - and still hope for - more compassion for those that don't think like we do.   It's sad to me that so many seem so comfortable falling back into the same tropes (for the record, I'm not even obliquely referring to anyone here, or any specific post):  those that want to reopen are "selfish and greedy, only out for the MONEY!" and those that don't want to are "selfish and expect the government to take care of them forever!"   I'm sure there are people out there that fit those stereotypes but it's not the way the world works.   There is going to be a lot right over the next six months/year, and there's going to be a lot wrong, and my wild fantasy/insane pipe dream is that we can do those things without a ton of recrimination, second-guessing, "I told you so!"'s, politicking, and what not.  We will see.   I'm not very confident in our ability to learn lessons like this ("doubling down" is a far more attractive option) but I'm also trying to practice what I preach, so I've got my fingers crossed!

With you 100%.

At the start, I thought this was God's fire drill for THE BIG ONE.  People have to change how they feel about one another.

What is amazing is how the far right and the far left are given such an outlet, when they are truly a minority.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:22:29 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 27, 2020, 08:56:36 AM

People are convinced doctors are falsifying records

I'm curious if anyone has dug into this at all rather than just immediately dismissing it. I've seen several things with "whistleblowers" claiming that they are being encouraged to put down all deaths as Covid-19 related. Also seen things showing that deaths attributed to the flu and pneumonia have virtually stopped over the last couple months even though those things are typically a responsible for many thousand of deaths this time of year (the flu is still going around). There's enough stuff floating around to make me curious, but frankly I don't trust any of the sources. I don't trust any of the numbers coming out of main stream sources either (we've seen over and over that the total number of cases is woefully under-counted). I'm frankly skeptical that any of the information coming out is complete and unbiased.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 27, 2020, 09:26:59 AM

Serious questions... what would be the motivation to inflate the numbers?  Some burning need to fuck up economies and society as a whole? Who benefits from higher numbers?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 27, 2020, 09:29:39 AM

The only thing I can think of giving any validity to that claim is that if someone has COVID but dies of, say, a heart attack, they list it as a COVID death. Not sure I really agree with that, but I don't think that's the same as FALSIFYING the death count.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:41:48 AM

I suspect, if anything, it's that they don't have the time to take the effort to really determine the cause of death. So if there's a lack of testing or other clear cause of death, they just throw it down as Covid-19 and move on to the next patient. This would make a lot of sense if the claims that deaths related to the flu and pneumonia have all but stopped. If it looks vaguely like Covid-19, they're just putting it down as that and moving on the help the next guy.

Some of the things I've read are that hospitals are getting more funding if they're treating Covid-19 patients, so it's financially to their advantage to put things down as Covid-19. Again... no idea if there's any validity to this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 27, 2020, 09:42:13 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:22:29 AM

I'm curious if anyone has dug into this at all rather than just immediately dismissing it. I've seen several things with "whistleblowers" claiming that they are being encouraged to put down all deaths as Covid-19 related. Also seen things showing that deaths attributed to the flu and pneumonia have virtually stopped over the last couple months even though those things are typically a responsible for many thousand of deaths this time of year (the flu is still going around). There's enough stuff floating around to make me curious, but frankly I don't trust any of the sources. I don't trust any of the numbers coming out of main stream sources either (we've seen over and over that the total number of cases is woefully under-counted). I'm frankly skeptical that any of the information coming out is complete and unbiased.

Agreed.

I suspect the numbers are being under-reported in the sense that there are likely millions who have had it and never knew it, so they aren't a part of the overall numbers being reported, but I also suspect that COVID-19 is being blamed for some deaths where it wasn't necessarily the main cause, like if a 80-year old man smoked his whole life and had terrible lungs and got COVID and then died. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:45:38 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 27, 2020, 09:42:13 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:22:29 AM

I'm curious if anyone has dug into this at all rather than just immediately dismissing it. I've seen several things with "whistleblowers" claiming that they are being encouraged to put down all deaths as Covid-19 related. Also seen things showing that deaths attributed to the flu and pneumonia have virtually stopped over the last couple months even though those things are typically a responsible for many thousand of deaths this time of year (the flu is still going around). There's enough stuff floating around to make me curious, but frankly I don't trust any of the sources. I don't trust any of the numbers coming out of main stream sources either (we've seen over and over that the total number of cases is woefully under-counted). I'm frankly skeptical that any of the information coming out is complete and unbiased.

Agreed.

I suspect the numbers are being under-reported in the sense that there are likely millions who have had it and never knew it, so they aren't a part of the overall numbers being reported, but I also suspect that COVID-19 is being blamed for some deaths where it wasn't necessarily the main cause, like if a 80-year old man smoked his whole life and had terrible lungs and got COVID and then died. 

I think this is likely as well. Many of the elderly people who are dying from Covid-19 likely would have died if they got the flu or even a bad cold. It's hammering the elderly and frail very hard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 27, 2020, 09:47:15 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:41:48 AM

I suspect, if anything, it's that they don't have the time to take the effort to really determine the cause of death. So if there's a lack of testing or other clear cause of death, they just throw it down as Covid-19 and move on to the next patient. This would make a lot of sense if the claims that deaths related to the flu and pneumonia have all but stopped. If it looks vaguely like Covid-19, they're just putting it down as that and moving on the help the next guy.

Some of the things I've read are that hospitals are getting more funding if they're treating Covid-19 patients, so it's financially to their advantage to put things down as Covid-19. Again... no idea if there's any validity to this.

I haven't seen that deaths related to flu have stopped. It seems to be going strong, just not being reported in the media, as it never really has been. I'd imagine there's a huge decrease in testing, however, due to hospitals being overwhelmed with COVID stuff.

And while all of these conspiracy theories are fun, I'd love to see any evidence (besides people online saying they "know" it) that they're just haphazardly assigning deaths to COVID just because.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 27, 2020, 09:49:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 27, 2020, 09:26:59 AM

Serious questions... what would be the motivation to inflate the numbers?  Some burning need to fuck up economies and society as a whole? Who benefits from higher numbers?

Not necessarily saying this IS any sort of motivation, but since you asked what it could be, here are a couple of possibilities:  (1) "Our medical facility/city/county/state BADLY needs funding and equipment.  The feds are trying to decide how to allocate resources.  It is in our best interest to inflate numbers so we can get our fair share.  Besides, everybody else is inflating, so if we don't do the same, we will be left behind and be in an even worse position than if we just gave the correct numbers."  (2) "Our facility is stretched really thin and is overworked right now.  We don't have time to dig into root causes for every case.  If there is ANY doubt whatsoever, just default to 'Covid-19' and move on to the next case." 

Again, not saying either of those are true.  But they could be.  Or there could be other motivations as well.  "Just because I can't think of any rational explanation for people to do X" doesn't mean "people aren't doing X."  It just means the motivation(s) haven't occurred to you, or that they don't make sense to you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:50:57 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 27, 2020, 09:47:15 AM

I haven't seen that deaths related to flu have stopped. It seems to be going strong, just not being reported in the media, as it never really has been. I'd imagine there's a huge decrease in testing, however, due to hospitals being overwhelmed with COVID stuff.

And while all of these conspiracy theories are fun, I'd love to see any evidence (besides people online saying they "know" it) that they're just haphazardly assigning deaths to COVID just because.

I've seen graphs showing the number of flu related deaths this year versus historical over the last several and flu deaths fell off a cliff when Covid-19 showed up and are tracking way behind previous years. Same with pneumonia. No idea where the data is coming from since they're floating around on social media and not embedded in a legit report of some kind.

The evidence is supposed to be doctors "blowing the whistle" on the hospitals they're working in. So it's supposed to be people inside the hospitals reporting on what their superiors are telling them to do.

Quote from: bosk1 on April 27, 2020, 09:49:18 AM

Not necessarily saying this IS any sort of motivation, but since you asked what it could be, here are a couple of possibilities:  (1) "Our medical facility/city/county/state BADLY needs funding and equipment.  The feds are trying to decide how to allocate resources.  It is in our best interest to inflate numbers so we can get our fair share.  Besides, everybody else is inflating, so if we don't do the same, we will be left behind and be in an even worse position than if we just gave the correct numbers."  (2) "Our facility is stretched really thin and is overworked right now.  We don't have time to dig into root causes for every case.  If there is ANY doubt whatsoever, just default to 'Covid-19' and move on to the next case." 

These are the two most likely explanations I could see as well. And they are the reasons being discussed in the "conspiracy" things I'm seeing. Primarily the funding one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 27, 2020, 09:55:51 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:50:57 AM

I've seen graphs showing the number of flu related deaths this year versus historical over the last several and flu deaths fell off a cliff when Covid-19 showed up and are tracking way behind previous years. Same with pneumonia. No idea where the data is coming from since they're floating around on social media and not embedded in a legit report of some kind.

The pneumonia data is interesting if that's accurate because, as I understand it, the leading cause of Covid-19 related death is that it induces pneumonia.  :lolpalm:

Not saying this equates to "falsifying" data, but it DOES go back to what I have been observing and commenting on as far as the data collection and reporting being flawed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 27, 2020, 09:57:43 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:50:57 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 27, 2020, 09:49:18 AM

Not necessarily saying this IS any sort of motivation, but since you asked what it could be, here are a couple of possibilities:  (1) "Our medical facility/city/county/state BADLY needs funding and equipment.  The feds are trying to decide how to allocate resources.  It is in our best interest to inflate numbers so we can get our fair share.  Besides, everybody else is inflating, so if we don't do the same, we will be left behind and be in an even worse position than if we just gave the correct numbers."  (2) "Our facility is stretched really thin and is overworked right now.  We don't have time to dig into root causes for every case.  If there is ANY doubt whatsoever, just default to 'Covid-19' and move on to the next case." 

These are the two most likely explanations I could see as well. And they are the reasons being discussed in the "conspiracy" things I'm seeing. Primarily the funding one.

That doesn't surprise me.  But I think the conspiracy-inclined folks out there would do well to realize that that something like that that can be simply attributable to human nature does not necessarily equate to "conspiracy!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:58:16 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 27, 2020, 09:55:51 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 27, 2020, 09:50:57 AM

I've seen graphs showing the number of flu related deaths this year versus historical over the last several and flu deaths fell off a cliff when Covid-19 showed up and are tracking way behind previous years. Same with pneumonia. No idea where the data is coming from since they're floating around on social media and not embedded in a legit report of some kind.

The pneumonia data is interesting if that's accurate because, as I understand it, the leading cause of Covid-19 related death is that it induces pneumonia.  :lolpalm:

Not saying this equates to "falsifying" data, but it DOES go back to what I have been observing and commenting on as far as the data collection and reporting being flawed.

Right, pneumonia is typically a secondary infection after having a different illness first. I guess the point is that in the past, deaths were being reported due to pneumonia instead of flu, or cold, or whatever the first infection was. Now they're being labeled as Covid-19. More just an inconsistency thing than anything damning about Covid.

Quote from: bosk1 on April 27, 2020, 09:57:43 AM

That doesn't surprise me.  But I think the conspiracy-inclined folks out there would do well to realize that that something like that that can be simply attributable to human nature does not necessarily equate to "conspiracy!"

Totally. That's how I'm inclined to think as well. I'm not thinking it's a giant conspiracy. I think, if the death numbers are being inflated, it's due to lack of testing, inaccurate testing, or just lack or time or other resources. The conspiracy theory people are always going to think it's a conspiracy. But it doesn't mean that there isn't some truth to what they're saying.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 27, 2020, 10:07:21 AM

I just saw Spain was prohibiting children under 14 from going outside their house. Now, according to a report: "Spain’s 5.8 million children under 14 years old are now allowed to take walks once a day, accompanied by a parent for up to one hour and within a kilometer of home." Damn.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 27, 2020, 10:24:52 AM

That's fucked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 27, 2020, 10:26:21 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 27, 2020, 10:07:21 AM

I just saw Spain was prohibiting children under 14 from going outside their house. Now, according to a report: "Spain’s 5.8 million children under 14 years old are now allowed to take walks once a day, accompanied by a parent for up to one hour and within a kilometer of home." Damn.

My cousin has been living in spain and was saying to us over the weekend that they aren't allowed to go out for walks or anything at all, but yes, those restrictions are getting looser this week.  She's in Barcelona and they have to have a pass when they do go out for groceries.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 27, 2020, 10:32:06 AM

I couldn't tell from the article I read if that meant you literally couldn't leave your home, or just leave your property (meaning you can go outside on your yard or deck). Can prove not take their dogs out? Does the poop just pile up for months since you can't go scoop it up? And how the hell do they dole out passes to get groceries? Doesn't literally everyone need to go to the store at some point?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 27, 2020, 10:50:06 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 27, 2020, 08:56:36 AM

My old man and his friends drove across the state to Indiana to go golfing. Apparently, a whole bunch of people from Illinois went there to go golfing this weekend.

Look, anecdotal evidence and all, but I've never seen so many 'snowflakes' as they call them until I began reading comments on articles, locally, about COVID-19. People are convinced doctors are falsifying records, that this virus is no big deal, that "MUH RITEZ" are being trampled upon, that they won't do anything the government tells them to do, etc. Jesus Christ, people. Never in human history has it been easier to stay at home and stay busy or entertained with work or hobbies or entertainment, and I see so many local vocal Trump supporters acting like this is the end of the USA because they can't go to the local pool or golf.

I bet very few of them ever thought about reading a book.

This goes to what I said about balance (with people, not you).   I see little difference between the "Muh RITEZ!" crowds and the people that fail to account for population when bombastically proclaiming that the US now "leads the world!" in COVID death.  True, I guess, but profoundly misleading.   Not listening to the government is the same absolute value (what? Math?) as "the government needs to solve all our problems".   It's just an arrow pointing in the opposite direction, with the most practical and effective answer somewhere in the middle.   

Moreso than objective, theoretical political debates, or more "math based" economic discussions, I think all of this demands that we make an effort to wear the hats of those we're otherwise inclined to disagree with, since the impacts are so much broader and so much more personal in nature.  This isn't about some person five states over owning a gun or some celebrity dropping an "n-bomb" in a vacuum. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 27, 2020, 11:29:51 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 27, 2020, 09:26:59 AM

Serious questions... what would be the motivation to inflate the numbers?  Some burning need to fuck up economies and society as a whole? Who benefits from higher numbers?

Depends who we're talking about.   China's motivations are different than, say, the Medical Examiner of New York.  China's are probably self-explanatory.   But on a more local level, I certainly see an incentive - whether taken or not - to improve the chances of funding, for example, or improve the chances of getting PPE/medical equipment.  I think there are more benign reasons; this won't be the first time that someone with all good intentions, erred on one side or another in an effort to be thorough. There's probably a legal reason to influence these determinations as well (on both sides).

I do know this, though: blame Trump, or Obama, or whoever your pet culprit is, but as a general matter, I don't find the skepticism of the numbers to be all that unreasonable, especially when you get past the actual number into the analysis. It's not just Fox News and tin foil Alex Jones fans bulleting the numbers.  It drives me batshit crazy when I hear people solemnly proclaim that "the United States has just surged into the lead for COVID-19 deaths".  Well, duh.  We're the third largest country in the world (population-wise) and the largest country in the world in terms of transparency (such that it is).  At this point, I don't inherently trust ANY numbers on their face, unless I can independently confirm them somewhere else (or independently confirm the source).*


* That's not at all the same thing as saying that I won't USE numbers in order to counter an argument.  I've cited World Meter several times.  That's not to say I value their numbers, or know they are right; but they ARE the numbers that others are using to draw conclusions, and if the numbers THEY'RE using don't support their conclusions, it's not about the veracity of the number at that point.   Does that make sense?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 27, 2020, 11:56:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 27, 2020, 09:26:59 AM

Serious questions... what would be the motivation to inflate the numbers?  Some burning need to fuck up economies and society as a whole? Who benefits from higher numbers?

If all the economies crash, then all the nations have a reason to unite in a treaty for world peace, world economy, NWO....etc..etc...

That is...if I'm just wondering aloud...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 27, 2020, 12:02:41 PM

I saw on CNN that NYC did a random test of anti-bodies.... 25% had them  :omg:  If that stat held true for the general population of NYC, you're talking millions of cases just in one city which pretty much blows the world confirmed cases out of the park.  The numbers game is definitely an interesting one and something I struggle to make any real sense with because we have no idea how many people actually have the virus due to its nature.  Almost makes me feel the reported numbers are irrelevant in some ways.  I've said it many times, we need more testing and personally think the focus should be on anti-body testing for the masses who need to get back to work. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 27, 2020, 12:08:52 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 27, 2020, 12:02:41 PM

I saw on CNN that NYC did a random test of anti-bodies.... 25% had them  :omg:  If that stat held true for the general population of NYC, you're talking millions of cases just in one city which pretty much blows the world confirmed cases out of the park.  The numbers game is definitely an interesting one and something I struggle to make any real sense with because we have no idea how many people actually have the virus due to its nature.  Almost makes me feel the reported numbers are irrelevant in some ways.  I've said it many times, we need more testing and personally think the focus should be on anti-body testing for the masses who need to get back to work.

except we still don’t know what good those anti-bodies actually do in protecting us right? At least that’s my understanding at this point. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 27, 2020, 12:11:22 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 27, 2020, 12:08:52 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 27, 2020, 12:02:41 PM

I saw on CNN that NYC did a random test of anti-bodies.... 25% had them  :omg:  If that stat held true for the general population of NYC, you're talking millions of cases just in one city which pretty much blows the world confirmed cases out of the park.  The numbers game is definitely an interesting one and something I struggle to make any real sense with because we have no idea how many people actually have the virus due to its nature.  Almost makes me feel the reported numbers are irrelevant in some ways.  I've said it many times, we need more testing and personally think the focus should be on anti-body testing for the masses who need to get back to work.

except we still don’t know what good those anti-bodies actually do in protecting us right? At least that’s my understanding at this point.

There's definitely a lot of question marks about that, but if the virus is similar to other known virus' it likely provides some protection.  So I think we'd all prefer to have those anti-bodies than not but the effectiveness is questionable.  I know, I'd personally love to get an anti-body test.  Would help me understand my own level of protection in this, not that I'd change anything I'm doing, but mentally would feel good to know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 27, 2020, 12:15:22 PM

I went to my office in downtown Chicago today for the first time in seven weeks.  The Loop (the city's business center) is a complete ghost town.  I saw maybe 5 people out at 8am, when you would usually see hundreds and thousands of people walking to work. 

I knew it would be empty in the city, so I brought my 5 year old daughter to get her out of the house.  She was excited to see the city for the first time, and we felt very comfortable without a mask, since very few people were out and about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zook on April 27, 2020, 01:15:27 PM

Has anyone tried injecting disinfectant yet?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on April 27, 2020, 01:33:47 PM

Another month...

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/27/bay-areas-shelter-in-place-to-last-through-may/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 27, 2020, 01:55:47 PM

Quote from: Zook on April 27, 2020, 01:15:27 PM

Has anyone tried injecting disinfectant yet?

Are you being sarcastic?  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 27, 2020, 02:22:25 PM

It's kinda hard to discuss without venturing into P/R territory, but basically I think if you're dumb enough to inject or ingest disinfectant, or bleach or isopropyl alcohol, you're just helping with the overall "culling the species" process that the virus has started.  In other words, I'm fine with people trying it if they want to.  I'm 100% serious, because I don't know anybody stupid enough to do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 27, 2020, 03:26:02 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 27, 2020, 02:22:25 PM

It's kinda hard to discuss without venturing into P/R territory, but basically I think if you're dumb enough to inject or ingest disinfectant, or bleach or isopropyl alcohol, you're just helping with the overall "culling the species" process that the virus has started.  In other words, I'm fine with people trying it if they want to.  I'm 100% serious, because I don't know anybody stupid enough to do it.

Yea, I'm with you pretty much.  I'm not defending Trump for saying the stupid shit he says, but if you listened to that idea, you are part of the weak that survival of the fittest typically weeds out. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 27, 2020, 06:20:14 PM

I don't get the whole conspiracy theory around causes of death always being coronavirus as being anything more than that - a conspiracy theory.  This notion that the cause of death listed on the certificate isn't the REAL cause of death is not really anything new.  My mom died of "cardiogenic shock".  That's what technically killed her.  She had a long list of underlying health conditions including COPD and diabetes.  Those things are likely what lead to her death.  If someone has the covid and they die and had been living with cancer say - the covid technically killed them, not the cancer.  But the cancer likely contributed.

So is anyone thinking about or actually doing anything about stocking up on things like meat?  I keep hearing about shortages and while I'm not inclined to hoard (I don't have the freezer space) I am wondering if food shortages are going to pan out like I keep hearing they are?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 28, 2020, 01:04:27 AM

I'm paying attention to my states local numbers. We have 2,823 confirmed positive cases, with 58,803 total tested. That's only about 2% of our total popluation. Yet, 95% of those tested are negative. We have had 104 deaths since they began lockdown, all of them were susceptible to it. 481 Total Hospitalizations, with 155 CURRENTLY Hospitalized.

Now, what I'm seeing here is many are at home, Quarantined. And I don't know how many of those hospitized are serious cases, I'm guessing most are.

Now, we are getting the antibody tests. Which is the main data we really need.


Oh and the best part....

Total Recovered: 666

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 28, 2020, 07:12:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 28, 2020, 01:04:27 AM

I'm paying attention to my states local numbers. We have 2,823 confirmed positive cases, with 58,803 total tested. That's only about 2% of our total popluation. Yet, 95% of those tested are negative. We have had 104 deaths since they began lockdown, all of them were susceptible to it. 481 Total Hospitalizations, with 155 CURRENTLY Hospitalized.

Now, what I'm seeing here is many are at home, Quarantined. And I don't know how many of those hospitized are serious cases, I'm guessing most are.

Now, we are getting the antibody tests. Which is the main data we really need.


Oh and the best part....

Total Recovered: 666

666!!! Yes!! My favorite number!  :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 08:06:23 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 27, 2020, 06:20:14 PM

I don't get the whole conspiracy theory around causes of death always being coronavirus as being anything more than that - a conspiracy theory.  This notion that the cause of death listed on the certificate isn't the REAL cause of death is not really anything new.  My mom died of "cardiogenic shock".  That's what technically killed her.  She had a long list of underlying health conditions including COPD and diabetes.  Those things are likely what lead to her death.  If someone has the covid and they die and had been living with cancer say - the covid technically killed them, not the cancer.  But the cancer likely contributed.

I'm not arguing with you (in fact, I agree with you) but I think the sticking point is that the methodology isn't necessarily consistent from pre-COVID days, and since we're relying on the data so heavily (well, some of us are, and I include you in that) it matters to show "delta".  There was a discussion here I think about the drop in "pneumonia" deaths, but that may actually be attributable to reallocating what used to be called a "pneumonia" death related to something else, like HIV, to the related cause, COVID. 

I know that under normal conditions, it's all academic, but perhaps it's time to allow for multiple choices (like here).  The problem with THAT, though, is that then the individual "causes" of death will not add up to the total deaths.  So there's no easy answer.

Quote

So is anyone thinking about or actually doing anything about stocking up on things like meat?  I keep hearing about shortages and while I'm not inclined to hoard (I don't have the freezer space) I am wondering if food shortages are going to pan out like I keep hearing they are?

We always have a couple meals on reserve - I'll buy ground beef on sale, divide it into 1lb. bags, and freeze it - anyway, and that's not changing.  When my wife puts in an order for BJ's or Walmart, for delivery, she'll sometimes add that or some chicken breasts.  We can't really plan the deliveries as accurately as we could pre-COVID, so those are more staples goods, than consumables at this point.


By the way, separate and apart from COVID, we do Home Chef.  And the chicken breasts that come are nicely sized, perhaps the size of a woman's fist (I think about 6 oz. maybe?) and make a fair meal.  I will sometimes cook the HC meal for my wife and I, and make a separate piece of chicken for my stepson (he's on the spectrum and is very - did I say "very"?  I meant VERY - particular about his food.  Some of the name brand chicken breasts are fucking YUGE.   The size of my head.  It's ridiculous.  I sometimes cut them in half long ways and can get two meals out of one breast.  Ridiculous, and I can't afford to let my mind wander as to how they get that big. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Looks like the scientists expect this to be an a annual occurrence. Ugh!

Nobody answered my earlier question concerning how a vaccine would help if we can become re-infected. To me that indicates that the antibodies don't sufficiecty build a strong enough immunity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 28, 2020, 08:26:58 AM

I think the numbers regarding infections and deaths related to Covid-19 will be fuzzy perhaps even years after this is all over.

We still aren't completely certain about the numbers related to the 1918-1919 flu pandemic.  I read a great book on it a few years ago and it quoted an estimate between 50 and 100 million dead.  That's a large margin for error!  Granted we have better tracking methods now then we did back then, but still...

When all is said and done, we will be able to easily review the death rates of other diseases compared to previous years with those attributed to Covid-19.  And if there is a discrepency found, then the numbers can be "fixed" to be more realistic at that time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 28, 2020, 08:30:20 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Looks like the scientists expect this to be an a annual occurrence. Ugh!

Nobody answered my earlier question concerning how a vaccine would help if we can become re-infected. To me that indicates that the antibodies don't sufficiecty build a strong enough immunity.

That's what viruses do.  They occur and re-occur.  Vaccines have to be developed and continuously updated to keep up with new strains.  It is literally a race between humans and viruses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 28, 2020, 08:35:02 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Looks like the scientists expect this to be an a annual occurrence. Ugh!

Nobody answered my earlier question concerning how a vaccine would help if we can become re-infected. To me that indicates that the antibodies don't sufficiecty build a strong enough immunity.

I'll try and answer this even thought I am not remotely an expert. We get a flu shot every year but it only addresses the strains of flu that we know of and we may get the flu that's of another strain. It very well could be that we have to develop a separate vaccine for this strain of virus and it could be that we would have to get a shot every year depending on if the corona mutates. Again, we're still in the 1st quarter with this virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:56:53 AM

I'm pretty well educated on flu vaccines since I sold them for 28 years. I know that a fair amount of guesswork, along with historical data and a few other factors is part of the process. They have to be made in advance of the flu season. I just wondered if this was going to be a different beast.

Along this line of thought, we never get data on people who get the flu despite getting vaccinated. I submit it's  a higher number than we would be comfortable with. This flu season I work with 4 people who were sick. Very sick. My daughter and son in law also. I would like to know the number to see just how successful the vaccine is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 28, 2020, 09:45:58 AM

Finland has significantly increased testing capacity for the virus, but there hasn't been a matching increase in the amount of tests made. The reason is simple: no demand. Prevention measures have been so effective that prediction models have overestimated progression of the epidemic, and the peak under current restrictions was on April 7th. It seems to have come to an almost complete halt everywhere except the capital province, which should make tracing of future contagion chains easier again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 09:53:04 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Looks like the scientists expect this to be an a annual occurrence. Ugh!

Are these the same scientists that said the death count would be over a million at this point?  :yeahright

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 09:57:51 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 09:53:04 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Looks like the scientists expect this to be an a annual occurrence. Ugh!

Are these the same scientists that said the death count would be over a million at this point?  :yeahright

The very same.

Had we not heeded their warnings and took the measures we did, that would have happened without the virus breaking a sweat. Can we please not act like that scientists are somehow the bad guys here?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 10:01:59 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 09:57:51 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 09:53:04 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Looks like the scientists expect this to be an a annual occurrence. Ugh!

Are these the same scientists that said the death count would be over a million at this point?  :yeahright

The very same.

Had we not heeded their warnings and took the measures we did, that would have happened without the virus breaking a sweat. Can we please not act like that scientists are somehow the bad guys here?

Exactly.  Scientists and public health officials and the hard work of everyone staying the fuck home is EXACTLY why the death count isn't what was predicted.  This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:07:56 AM

Why are you responding like you're personally offended?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 10:13:51 AM

Personally offended? No.  I'm just tired of this "blame the people who are actually doing the hard work" mode that people seem to be shifting into.  We should be jumping for joy that the curve was flattened.  It means we were successful!

Edit to add that there are many people grieving losses who wouldn't see us as being successful.  I don't mean to minimize their pain.  I'm just saying it could've been so much worse with many more lost had we not all sacrificed and paid attention to the scientists and experts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Flattening the curve means spreading out the deaths.

I prefer the ripping off a band aid approach.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 10:19:19 AM

Flattening the curve means having more time to get prepared.  Making sure our hospitals are getting all the PPE we need and staff are not working themselves to death.  I won't speak for other countries, but the US was not prepared.  We still aren't fully prepared but flattening the curve bought us more time to get there.

Ripping off the band aid would've collapsed the health care system.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 10:19:25 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Flattening the curve means spreading out the deaths.

No it doesn't. You're implying that the total death count would be the same whether it was a gradual bell curve or a Everest-like spike of a mountain. That's just flat out wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 10:37:35 AM

I haven't a clue what you're trying to say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 28, 2020, 10:40:23 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

But that's the point, the stay at home measures helped limit the spread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 10:41:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

That's the whole point of flattening the curve.  The deaths will not be the same because preventative action has been taken.

Seriously, what is it you don't understand about this?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 10:42:14 AM

I don't blame the scientists at all, but I'm not going to lie.  I'm a numbers/data/analysis kind of guy - I have the World Meter up on my desk top most days - and I'm struggling with the "certainty" of the efficacy of some of the measures.   

I deal in risk management every single day, so I understand that there is benefit to "less bad", but there still has to be some attributable causal connection between the constraints and the benefits.  Too many of the articles I've read simply make the statement prima facie, and it's sort of begging the question if you ask me.   I'm fine so far with what we've done, primarily (and selfishly) since the only hardship I've really endured is the postponing of The Musical Box show.   But that's not enough. 

The real test for me is if the time is spent ACTUALLY PREPARING.  We got it from Europe, not China, so there was a lot more going on than just "bad lab procedures" and careless containment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:44:19 AM

I'm factoring in the recent reports of there being a massive amount of symptomless carriers into my thinking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 10:45:00 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 10:41:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

That's the whole point of flattening the curve.  The deaths will not be the same because preventative action has been taken.

Seriously, what is it you don't understand about this?

I'm guessing the concept of exponential growth.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 28, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 10:41:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

That's the whole point of flattening the curve.  The deaths will not be the same because preventative action has been taken.

Seriously, what is it you don't understand about this?

Not only that--that's only really a small part of it. The bigger factor is, even if we were to get an identical spread with identical numbers, just spread over more time, that in and of itself results in less deaths by preventing the health care system from being overwhelmed.  If there are more cases in a short window than there are hospital staff/beds/ventillators/PPE/etc., people will get less effective care, and more die as a result (both of Covid-19 and for other things that should be treatable, but, again, the system is overwhelmed, so people die that shouldn't).  We have already seen this.  Italy is a prime example.  But it occurred on a lesser scale in the U.S. as well. 

It isn't about "ripping off the bandaid."  That is a poor analogy for this.  It's more like, give me a month to spread it out, and I can drink 50 gallons of water easily.  Give it to me pressurized all at once in 30 seconds, I would be overwhelmed and it would kill me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:51:47 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 10:45:00 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 10:41:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

That's the whole point of flattening the curve.  The deaths will not be the same because preventative action has been taken.

Seriously, what is it you don't understand about this?

I'm guessing the concept of exponential growth.

I still don't get why you're responding like I'm making personal attacks

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 28, 2020, 10:52:14 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 09:57:51 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 09:53:04 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 28, 2020, 08:17:32 AM

Looks like the scientists expect this to be an a annual occurrence. Ugh!

Are these the same scientists that said the death count would be over a million at this point?  :yeahright

The very same.

Had we not heeded their warnings and took the measures we did, that would have happened without the virus breaking a sweat. Can we please not act like that scientists are somehow the bad guys here?

I agree, the scientists are certainly not the bad guys.  I imagine that modeling this sort of thing is complex.  It also is based on the data that is available at the time of the modeling, and if the data is incomplete (which it was and is), and if the situation is new (which it is) then mistakes are bound to be made.

But that doesn't mean that the models aren't useful.  I'm very grateful that science was able to so quickly prepare us so we could potentially dodge a much larger bullet.

Nobody knows what could have happened, all we know is what has and is happening.  And it's not over yet either.  And as I mentioned earlier, we aren't going to know the full scope of this thing until probably years after it's all over.

In short, science is awesome!  And thanks :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 10:55:06 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:51:47 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 10:45:00 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 10:41:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

That's the whole point of flattening the curve.  The deaths will not be the same because preventative action has been taken.

Seriously, what is it you don't understand about this?

I'm guessing the concept of exponential growth.

I still don't get why you're responding like I'm making personal attacks

Because that's how I respond to things. Not my fault if you're assuming I feel attacked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 10:57:24 AM

I'm not saying I agree with him, but his point of view isn't that far out of bounds.  "Exponential growth" can happen over a short time t or a long time t.  Capacity of hospitals are a time-dependent variable, total number of deaths may or may not be (see caveat below).   Think of it this way:

Assume every person gives it to four others.  Assume the capacity of my local hospital is 300.  Assume 5% die who get it.

No controls.

I get it.   I give it to four people today.  They each spread it today.  Those people spread it tomorrow. The new people spread it tomorrow.  We're now at 1+4+ (4x4)+(4x4x4)+(4x4x4x4) = 341.  Fourteen days later, we all get symptoms, hospitals maxed out.  Problems ensue, 17 (roughly) die, but still more than 300 need care.

We flatten the curve, we social distance.
I get it.  On day 13, I give it to four people.   On day 13, they give it to four people.  After 26 days, flat curve, but we have 21 people still sick.  On that 13th day, they all give it to four people, which is another 64 people, but of the 21, 1 dies and the remainder get well.  So there's only 64 sick at this point (39 days), not 85.   More capacity. Those 64 give it to 4 more each after 13 days, so we have 256 more sick, but 3 die and 61 get better after 52 days.  Still under capacity.   The 256 spread it on day 13; that 256 are still going to lose about 13 people, so we're still at 17 deaths, but after 65 days, the burden on the healthcare system is far lower.   

Now, I get it; the "flaw" is - or the theory is, depending on how you look at it - is the social distancing means that the "four infect four each" doesn't hold.  And that's the real key, isn't it?   Is that really true?   Are the letters they're mailing, the packages their sending/receiving, the Door Dash they're ordering, really making that assumption hold?   I don't know.  "Common sense" says yes, but that's an equally flawed methodology (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-power-prime/201107/common-sense-is-neither-common-nor-sense).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 11:02:00 AM

By all this, then, the only metric that really matters is hospital capacity (as measured by beds, ventilators and PPE).  Why are we not measuring that then? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 11:04:36 AM

But a potential collapse of the health care system due to an overwhelming influx of covid patients isn't the entire picture we need to consider.  If every ventilator in a hospital is being used for covid patients then where do the trauma cases go?  Where do the heart attacks go?  Where do the strokes go?

We have a finite amount of beds, staff, resources.  Covid may have temporarily decreased admissions because there are less car accidents and gun shot wounds, but those are going to come back when we release the hounds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 11:16:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 11:02:00 AM

By all this, then, the only metric that really matters is hospital capacity (as measured by beds, ventilators and PPE).  Why are we not measuring that then?

You're thinking too small. That's just one variable to consider when looking at medical related metrics.

You also need to consider the entire supply chain:
- Number of whatever pieces of equipment you need (beds, ventilators, linens, etc..)
- Pieces of infrastructure in place that allow hospitals the world over to accurately report and relay findings and needs to the proper government channels and inventory managers. 
- Number of staff
- Amount of deliveries each hospital can accept a day
- Number of healthy drivers at the distribution centers that deliver the goods
- Number of healthy people at the manufacturing centers that make the goods to be delivered
- Number of healthy people at the raw resources facilities preparing materials for the manufacturing centers who make the goods to be delivered.

You could have a hospital with 1000 open beds, but if there's a shortage of doctors and/or equipment, how much good are they? We have to look at the whole chain. Not just the hospitals themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 11:37:40 AM

Well, I think it's less "thinking small" than "not covering any and all variables".  You build that into the analysis.  My copy is obsolete now, but I used to use a software called "Extend" to model processes, and analyze for critical path functionality.  If it's not just beds, but ventilators and doctors, factor it in.  When we build a bridge, we don't just account for the weight of the materials in the bridge, we estimate the amount of traffic, with a safety factor.  We estimate the percentage of freight vehicles.  We factor in snow, wind, and rain.  Maybe earthquakes if we're at a certain location.  We estimate resonance frequency of the materials, and slap a safety factor on there, to boot. We can do that with hospital load. 

The point really was, it's not about "number dead" or "number of cases" - so when Brook Baldwin breathless with gravitas says "deaths in the United, States will soon top seventy.  Four.  THOUSAND.  <Pause>." it's really not meaningful news in the sense of being an indicator, but something else.

(Don't know why I thought of this, but this is an interesting article on the library at my school (https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-1994-05-06-9405060307-story.html).  The entire time I was there the building was draped in netting due to falling bricks, largely caused by a failure to account for the weight of the books during the design and construction phases.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 28, 2020, 11:46:59 AM

Chino and Harmony:  Didn't I just say exactly what you said here?

Quote from: bosk1 on April 28, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

Quote from: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 10:41:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on April 28, 2020, 10:32:01 AM

If the virus spreads as much as they say the deaths would be the same

That's the whole point of flattening the curve.  The deaths will not be the same because preventative action has been taken.

Seriously, what is it you don't understand about this?

Not only that--that's only really a small part of it. The bigger factor is, even if we were to get an identical spread with identical numbers, just spread over more time, that in and of itself results in less deaths by preventing the health care system from being overwhelmed.  If there are more cases in a short window than there are hospital staff/beds/ventillators/PPE/etc., people will get less effective care, and more die as a result (both of Covid-19 and for other things that should be treatable, but, again, the system is overwhelmed, so people die that shouldn't).  We have already seen this.  Italy is a prime example.  But it occurred on a lesser scale in the U.S. as well. 

It isn't about "ripping off the bandaid."  That is a poor analogy for this.  It's more like, give me a month to spread it out, and I can drink 50 gallons of water easily.  Give it to me pressurized all at once in 30 seconds, I would be overwhelmed and it would kill me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 11:56:37 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 11:37:40 AM

Well, I think it's less "thinking small" than "not covering any and all variables".  You build that into the analysis.  My copy is obsolete now, but I used to use a software called "Extend" to model processes, and analyze for critical path functionality.  If it's not just beds, but ventilators and doctors, factor it in.  When we build a bridge, we don't just account for the weight of the materials in the bridge, we estimate the amount of traffic, with a safety factor.  We estimate the percentage of freight vehicles.  We factor in snow, wind, and rain.  Maybe earthquakes if we're at a certain location.  We estimate resonance frequency of the materials, and slap a safety factor on there, to boot. We can do that with hospital load. 

I kind of want to really dig deep into this discussion because I think there's a lot of cool stuff to talk about. But looking back at your reply that I responded to, I completely misread what you were asking, so my bad if the response seemed off.

It's going to be interesting to see what evolves and how over the next few years. I don't think greatly increasing hospital capacity going forward is going to solve a whole lot (that's kind of where I thought you were heading). 

Quote

The point really was, it's not about "number dead" or "number of cases" - so when Brook Baldwin breathless with gravitas says "deaths in the United, States will soon top seventy.  Four.  THOUSAND.  <Pause>." it's really not meaningful news in the sense of being an indicator, but something else.

Agreed.

Though I don't think "number dead" should be discouraged from being discussed (not implying you were). Have you seen this: https://www.sheltonherald.com/news/article/Shelton-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-rise-again-15223490.php?

I'll tell you how my mentality has changed during all this.... I've been looking at my 401K as a means to enjoy my final years, but now I look at it was a way to prevent myself from being in a place like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 11:57:32 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 28, 2020, 11:46:59 AM

Chino and Harmony:  Didn't I just say exactly what you said here?

Yes.  I'm pretty sure these points have been made many times in this 80 page thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 28, 2020, 11:46:59 AM

Chino and Harmony:  Didn't I just say exactly what you said here?

Yeah. Spot on. I missed your post.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 12:02:38 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 11:56:37 AM

It's going to be interesting to see what evolves and how over the next few years. I don't think greatly increasing hospital capacity going forward is going to solve a whole lot (that's kind of where I thought you were heading). 

Not sure if you are touching on this particular point - and I agree it is going to be VERY interesting to see how the medical model of healthcare delivery is going to change.  I predict a LOT more telehealth which impacts almost every facet of healthcare as we know it.  Now of course, people are still going to need arms set and stitches and EKGs.  But at the very least triage is going to change dramatically. 

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 11:56:37 AM

I'll tell you how my mentality has changed during all this.... I've been looking at my 401K as a means to enjoy my final years, but now I look at it was a way to prevent myself from being in a place like that.

Excellent point.  Could it mean that home health is going to be even more of a factor going forward?  I think probably so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 28, 2020, 12:03:21 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 11:56:37 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 11:37:40 AM

Well, I think it's less "thinking small" than "not covering any and all variables".  You build that into the analysis.  My copy is obsolete now, but I used to use a software called "Extend" to model processes, and analyze for critical path functionality.  If it's not just beds, but ventilators and doctors, factor it in.  When we build a bridge, we don't just account for the weight of the materials in the bridge, we estimate the amount of traffic, with a safety factor.  We estimate the percentage of freight vehicles.  We factor in snow, wind, and rain.  Maybe earthquakes if we're at a certain location.  We estimate resonance frequency of the materials, and slap a safety factor on there, to boot. We can do that with hospital load. 

I kind of want to really dig deep into this discussion because I think there's a lot of cool stuff to talk about. But looking back at your reply that I responded to, I completely misread what you were asking, so my bad if the response seemed off.

It's going to be interesting to see what evolves and how over the next few years. I don't think greatly increasing hospital capacity going forward is going to solve a whole lot (that's kind of where I thought you were heading). 

Quote

The point really was, it's not about "number dead" or "number of cases" - so when Brook Baldwin breathless with gravitas says "deaths in the United, States will soon top seventy.  Four.  THOUSAND.  <Pause>." it's really not meaningful news in the sense of being an indicator, but something else.

Agreed.

Though I don't think "number dead" should be discouraged from being discussed (not implying you were). Have you seen this: https://www.sheltonherald.com/news/article/Shelton-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-rise-again-15223490.php?

I'll tell you how my mentality has changed during all this.... I've been looking at my 401K as a means to enjoy my final years, but now I look at it was a way to prevent myself from being in a place like that.

the situation in nursing homes here has been catastrophic  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52239263

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 12:04:32 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2020, 11:56:37 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 11:37:40 AM

Well, I think it's less "thinking small" than "not covering any and all variables".  You build that into the analysis.  My copy is obsolete now, but I used to use a software called "Extend" to model processes, and analyze for critical path functionality.  If it's not just beds, but ventilators and doctors, factor it in.  When we build a bridge, we don't just account for the weight of the materials in the bridge, we estimate the amount of traffic, with a safety factor.  We estimate the percentage of freight vehicles.  We factor in snow, wind, and rain.  Maybe earthquakes if we're at a certain location.  We estimate resonance frequency of the materials, and slap a safety factor on there, to boot. We can do that with hospital load. 

I kind of want to really dig deep into this discussion because I think there's a lot of cool stuff to talk about. But looking back at your reply that I responded to, I completely misread what you were asking, so my bad if the response seemed off.

It's going to be interesting to see what evolves and how over the next few years. I don't think greatly increasing hospital capacity going forward is going to solve a whole lot (that's kind of where I thought you were heading). 

Not specifically just capacity, but whatever the metric is for avoiding overload.

If you want to go deep, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

Quote

Quote

The point really was, it's not about "number dead" or "number of cases" - so when Brook Baldwin breathless with gravitas says "deaths in the United, States will soon top seventy.  Four.  THOUSAND.  <Pause>." it's really not meaningful news in the sense of being an indicator, but something else.

Agreed.

Though I don't think "number dead" should be discouraged from being discussed (not implying you were). Have you seen this: https://www.sheltonherald.com/news/article/Shelton-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-rise-again-15223490.php?

I'll tell you how my mentality has changed during all this.... I've been looking at my 401K as a means to enjoy my final years, but now I look at it was a way to prevent myself from being in a place like that.

No kidding; I'm dealing with that with my mom and dad (83 and 81 this year) and they're at the doorstep.  There's a real part of me (and I've had this conversation with my brother) about whether they're better off just living their life as they want to. It'd be so much easier for ME, personally, if they're in a home, but it's not about me, is it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2020, 12:21:10 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2020, 12:04:32 PM

No kidding; I'm dealing with that with my mom and dad (83 and 81 this year) and they're at the doorstep.  There's a real part of me (and I've had this conversation with my brother) about whether they're better off just living their life as they want to. It'd be so much easier for ME, personally, if they're in a home, but it's not about me, is it?

My last grandparent died last Thanksgiving after 4 or 5 years at a place called Cook Willow. I'm so relieved she got bad and passed when she did. If she had to spend her last couple months alone, my mother would have been absolutely hysterical, as would her siblings. I couldn't imagine having to make some of those decisions in this climate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 28, 2020, 01:13:23 PM

Missouri is lifting the statewide stay at home order on May 4th. Businesses will reopen with the expectation that businesses/people will still adhere to social distancing rules and limited gatherings. Local municipalities/counties can still issue stay at home orders though. The Governor is just basically not making it a mandatory state wide thing and handing it back to local authorities.

I'm honestly cool with that. There are a lot of rural areas in Missouri that shouldn't be governed the same as say downtown St. Louis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 28, 2020, 01:18:12 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 28, 2020, 01:13:23 PM

Missouri is lifting the statewide stay at home order on May 4th. Businesses will reopen with the expectation that businesses/people will still adhere to social distancing rules and limited gatherings. Local municipalities/counties can still issue stay at home orders though. The Governor is just basically not making it a mandatory state wide thing and handing it back to local authorities.

I'm honestly cool with that. There are a lot of rural areas in Missouri that shouldn't be governed the same as say downtown St. Louis.

Yep, and we've already been emailed today that we will all work part time in the office starting next Monday (half will work at home day, half at the office, and then rotate the next day, etc.), and then all of us back in the office on the 18th of May.  It is what it is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 28, 2020, 01:31:14 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 28, 2020, 01:18:12 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 28, 2020, 01:13:23 PM

Missouri is lifting the statewide stay at home order on May 4th. Businesses will reopen with the expectation that businesses/people will still adhere to social distancing rules and limited gatherings. Local municipalities/counties can still issue stay at home orders though. The Governor is just basically not making it a mandatory state wide thing and handing it back to local authorities.

I'm honestly cool with that. There are a lot of rural areas in Missouri that shouldn't be governed the same as say downtown St. Louis.

Yep, and we've already been emailed today that we will all work part time in the office starting next Monday (half will work at home day, half at the office, and then rotate the next day, etc.), and then all of us back in the office on the 18th of May.  It is what it is.

I too live in Missouri and I think we're opening up too quickly but I get it. Missouri is a poor State and people are feeling the pain. My area will be the last to go back into the office  but we still will be required social distance and keep meetings to low occupancy. I work in IT, been WFH since mid-March and can do my job from literally anywhere in the world. So I axe you, what's the fucking use in going in at all? It's high risk!  >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 28, 2020, 04:40:58 PM

So who thinks this is a good idea? POTUS has to have his Big Mac!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-trump-liability/trump-will-order-u-s-meat-processing-plants-to-stay-open-amid-coronavirus-fears-idUSKCN22A2OB

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on April 28, 2020, 04:50:04 PM

My wife told me the Tennessee governor is allowing gyms to open this Friday.  I am a YMCA member, but not sure when I will return.  Glad I bought my spin bike last year.

Concerning office workers returning after 2 months of efficiently working from home, morale will tank if we are not allowed to work from home in the future. We have the technology!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 28, 2020, 05:00:11 PM

Quote from: mike099 on April 28, 2020, 04:50:04 PM

Concerning office workers returning after 2 months of efficiently working from home, morale will tank if we are not allowed to work from home in the future. We have the technology!

That will be interesting. My work has stated out loud that they are taken aback at how effective and efficient we have been during this time. We have some 800-1000 IT staff and we aren't batting an eye. I have told my bosses that I am more productive at home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 05:30:50 PM

I'm IT, and I've been working from home since last year, and have no intention of returning to the office whenever it does reopen.  Now that we've all adjusted to working remotely, I can't see why they wouldn't let us continue this way.

The situation now reminds me of the days and months immediately following 9/11/2001.  I was working for the airlines at the time, and when flights were grounded and air travel changed overnight, businesses realized that they didn't have to spend thousands of dollars all the time flying people all over the country for face-to-face meetings.  Flights were cheap in the 90's; everyone did it.  Instead they ramped up their teleconferencing game, and it became the new norm.

Similarly, I think we're going to see a big shift towards people working from home.  Businesses will see how it ultimately saves them money and increases productivity at the same time, and you know they'll be all over that.  If you can do your job sitting at a desk, what difference does it make if you're sitting in an office building or your own house?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 28, 2020, 05:31:51 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 28, 2020, 01:31:14 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 28, 2020, 01:18:12 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 28, 2020, 01:13:23 PM

Missouri is lifting the statewide stay at home order on May 4th. Businesses will reopen with the expectation that businesses/people will still adhere to social distancing rules and limited gatherings. Local municipalities/counties can still issue stay at home orders though. The Governor is just basically not making it a mandatory state wide thing and handing it back to local authorities.

I'm honestly cool with that. There are a lot of rural areas in Missouri that shouldn't be governed the same as say downtown St. Louis.

Yep, and we've already been emailed today that we will all work part time in the office starting next Monday (half will work at home day, half at the office, and then rotate the next day, etc.), and then all of us back in the office on the 18th of May.  It is what it is.

I too live in Missouri and I think we're opening up too quickly but I get it. Missouri is a poor State and people are feeling the pain. My area will be the last to go back into the office  but we still will be required social distance and keep meetings to low occupancy. I work in IT, been WFH since mid-March and can do my job from literally anywhere in the world. So I axe you, what's the fucking use in going in at all? It's high risk!  >:(

I prefer the Governor leave it up to the Counties and local municipalities. St. Louis county is gonna stay locked down for a bit and so is the Kansas City area  those are the big hit areas. I’m good with the Statewide stuff being lifted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 28, 2020, 05:40:31 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 28, 2020, 05:30:50 PM

I'm IT, and I've been working from home since last year, and have no intention of returning to the office whenever it does reopen.  Now that we've all adjusted to working remotely, I can't see why they wouldn't let us continue this way.

It doesn't pertain to me much, but I asked my boss about this in our one on one to get maybe a bigger insight for the company.  We are an IT company and most people are programmers and people who can do their job remotely.  So I asked my boss if there were talks about working from home being a thing in general for the future.  The company just spent so much money on making sure people have monitors and equipment at home while boosting our video conference service that you have to ask, if this works, why go back?  It seems like they are definitely thinking about this stuff.  Office space in Manhatten is really expensive.  I think they will maintain the office maybe in a smaller capacity, because for sales and certain positions, it does make sense to physically be there and be in a good location, however many people can stay home.  Plus, with social distancing, our open office layout doesn't really work well with that.  They'd have to give people more space and that alone is a reason to keep people home. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 28, 2020, 06:21:08 PM

Yeah, my company sending IT home could be a revenue generator for them. Currently, the majority of IT takes up several floors of a building in the Streeterville neighborhood of downtown Chicago. Some of my coworkers have a beautiful view of the lake from their office as it is near Navy Pier. They could easily flip that space to clinical and make a ton either renting it out or expanding services to the building.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 06:56:54 PM

Question - and I realize this may vary from state to state (US) and country to country - but if more people begin/continue telecommuting doesn't that mean employees can get a nice tax break?  I sort of remember my brother-in-law at one point worked from home and had a write off for his home office - meaning a portion of his mortgage, a portion of his electric bill, etc. was credited to him at tax time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 28, 2020, 07:59:44 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 06:56:54 PM

Question - and I realize this may vary from state to state (US) and country to country - but if more people begin/continue telecommuting doesn't that mean employees can get a nice tax break?  I sort of remember my brother-in-law at one point worked from home and had a write off for his home office - meaning a portion of his mortgage, a portion of his electric bill, etc. was credited to him at tax time.

There are some rules about that kind of stuff, but there is the potential for a tax write off. I believe the space must be used exclusively for business for example among other things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 28, 2020, 08:13:10 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 28, 2020, 07:59:44 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 06:56:54 PM

Question - and I realize this may vary from state to state (US) and country to country - but if more people begin/continue telecommuting doesn't that mean employees can get a nice tax break?  I sort of remember my brother-in-law at one point worked from home and had a write off for his home office - meaning a portion of his mortgage, a portion of his electric bill, etc. was credited to him at tax time.

There are some rules about that kind of stuff, but there is the potential for a tax write off. I believe the space must be used exclusively for business for example among other things.

Correct. There are rules, but hen I worked from home I claimed my whole cell phone and internet bill payments for "home office use" even though it was obviously not used solely for work. With the new tax rules, more people started taking the standard deduction instead of itemizing their deductions because they ended up getting a larger break that way. So even if more people can claim those deductions, they might not benefit in the end because their standard deduction will still be greater.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 28, 2020, 08:36:20 PM

Weren’t a bunch of those things taken away.

I used to be able to write off my tools for work and I know that was taken away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 29, 2020, 05:38:53 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 28, 2020, 08:13:10 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 28, 2020, 07:59:44 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 28, 2020, 06:56:54 PM

Question - and I realize this may vary from state to state (US) and country to country - but if more people begin/continue telecommuting doesn't that mean employees can get a nice tax break?  I sort of remember my brother-in-law at one point worked from home and had a write off for his home office - meaning a portion of his mortgage, a portion of his electric bill, etc. was credited to him at tax time.

There are some rules about that kind of stuff, but there is the potential for a tax write off. I believe the space must be used exclusively for business for example among other things.

Correct. There are rules, but hen I worked from home I claimed my whole cell phone and internet bill payments for "home office use" even though it was obviously not used solely for work. With the new tax rules, more people started taking the standard deduction instead of itemizing their deductions because they ended up getting a larger break that way. So even if more people can claim those deductions, they might not benefit in the end because their standard deduction will still be greater.

From business owners I know and have spoken with in Connecticut, the space in your house that you designate as work related doesn't have to be 100% dedicated to work. One guy I speak with regularly turned his master bedroom into the "work office" (also doubles as his recording studio and masturbation station). He's got a full machine shop set up in the city, but often works from home and meets with clients there. Because the clients have to come in through the front door and go all the way to the master bedroom office, he also writes off his front entry way, the upstairs hallway, and even the master bathroom (client might need to poo) as part of "home office use".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 29, 2020, 06:19:41 AM

Not so fast, though; the so-called "rich person tax cut" that passed a couple years ago cut back DRASTICALLY on the ability to claim office space.  There is a difference between me working for General Electric, having an office and occasionally making my masturbation station into a remote office, and having a business that I own and run and hope is someday on Shark Tank, and running that business out of my den.   

I'm not a tax attorney, nor an accountant, but as someone who has worked for a larger company for over ten years, and spent most of that time in my basement, for the last couple years I have NOT been able to write off that portion of my home (and expenses) as a business expense.   I would be surprised if all these people that have office space available to them and just are setting up their laptop on their kitchen table will now have a new tax deduction.  My wife, on the other hand, who has a consulting business and runs that business ENTIRELY out of the house (and has for years), can take a deduction on certain things. 

And whether anyone is following it or not, there IS an "exclusive use" requirement under the IRS tax rules (https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/small-business-taxes/the-home-office-deduction/L1RZyYxzv).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 29, 2020, 06:55:03 AM

My wife runs a dog sitting business out of our home. I used TurboTax to do our taxes this year. Based on the way TurboTax described everything, we were not able to write off any of our home simply because everything is a shared space. We don't have dedicated business space. Now, I was tempted to write some off anyway and roll the dice on being audited, but in the end I didn't. It's possible a tax accountant could have found some stuff to write off, but we don't make that much money from it, so I didn't feel it was worth the cost.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 29, 2020, 07:53:12 AM

Yeah, the IRS tax rules suck.  In fact the whole IRS sucks for that matter.  :loser:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 29, 2020, 02:43:40 PM

Possible good news on the treatment front.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/29/health/gilead-sciences-remdesivir-covid-19-treatment/index.html?=000

Cross your fingers and toes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 29, 2020, 03:26:57 PM

So this is an interesting study - though be advised the study group is quite small.  The asymptomatic covid positive passengers from the Diamond Princess?  Well half of them showed lung damage on their CT scans.  The damage was consistent with the "ground-glass opacities" that are often seen in hospital CT scans of covid positive patients.

So if this study is an indication, then a lot more people are at a much higher likelihood of long-term lung disease from covid.   :-\

https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/ryct.2020200110?fbclid=IwAR3n6ehB1boe_PjRb0kxM2_mJrLAf3SC7Dof-ollcG_cWWgZ_1LGaguftrY

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 29, 2020, 04:08:22 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 29, 2020, 02:43:40 PM

Possible good news on the treatment front.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/29/health/gilead-sciences-remdesivir-covid-19-treatment/index.html?=000

Cross your fingers and toes.

The fact Fauci seemed pretty excited for the potential of this gives me hope.  Not a cure, but this could help a lot with getting people out of the hospitals quicker.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 29, 2020, 04:36:10 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 29, 2020, 04:08:22 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 29, 2020, 02:43:40 PM

Possible good news on the treatment front.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/29/health/gilead-sciences-remdesivir-covid-19-treatment/index.html?=000

Cross your fingers and toes.

The fact Fauci seemed pretty excited for the potential of this gives me hope.  Not a cure, but this could help a lot with getting people out of the hospitals quicker.

There had been reporting for at least 3 weeks about remdesvir. This is the first time where studies confirm that it can help and the FDA fast tracked its approval.

And yes - the fact that Fauci's  (a national treasure) excitement should give everyone hope.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on April 29, 2020, 04:58:50 PM

It'll be interesting to see what Walz does here in Minnesota tomorrow. He's set to make the decision what the next step of his stay at home order, and also said some businesses will be allowed to open on Monday. It'll be interesting to see. He's shown that he won't go hand in hand with Wisconsin and what they are doing, but he also seems like he's willing to keep more businesses closed for longer. I don't know, I think he's done a pretty good job recently.

Work continues to be crazy for us. We offer curbside pickup, which has proven quite popular. We're just a small mom and pop, and aren't equipped to be doing what we're doing. However, we're quite resilient and keep up. We've had quite a few people step up, it's been amazing. We still continue to do almost double the business every day. Recently, a customer complained (in a rather condescending email) about us not wearing masks, so we started wearing those. Man, those are uncomfortable and make it hard to breath sometimes--these weren't made to wear while carrying 50 pounds up steps constantly, but we'll get through.

I read TACs post awhile back about how working in a grocery store during these times feels like any other day--we're just doing our jobs. It felt special at first because it was so new and we were getting thanks that we otherwise don't get from people--I think some people realized how important grocery stores are to society. But now everyday seems like it's just a holiday eve--I've seen the comparison that it's Thanksgiving Eve everyday and it does truly feel like that. But it's been rewarding and I hope we've gained some new customers

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 29, 2020, 05:07:43 PM

WA's Stay at Home was set to expire May 04. Gov is talking now. I am following, not listening, but there will be an extension. He has opened up a few things, and says more specific openings will be announced on May 01. But as of now, there is still a Stay at Home order, that will be extended to unknown date, as of now unknown.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 29, 2020, 05:23:48 PM

Went into work today and on my way home stopped at my local liqour and local grocery store since I was already masked and out.  I hadn't been to a store in 2 weeks and it seemed a bit had changed.  Barriers put up in the liqour store between the register and the counter and a limit on only two packages of chicken at the grocery store.  I had no idea about the limit, I grabbed 5 packages of different cuts to stock up since chicken is my go to daily protein and the lady at the register was extremely annoyed by me.  I guess I totally missed a sign or something and felt like an idiot.  I haven't been out much to really have kept up with the rules like that, but I do hear there may be a meat shortage so I don't blame them for the rules... just wish I knew so I didn't accidentally piss off this cashier

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 30, 2020, 05:20:04 AM

Quote from: SystematicThought on April 29, 2020, 04:58:50 PM

It'll be interesting to see what Walz does here in Minnesota tomorrow. He's set to make the decision what the next step of his stay at home order, and also said some businesses will be allowed to open on Monday. It'll be interesting to see. He's shown that he won't go hand in hand with Wisconsin and what they are doing, but he also seems like he's willing to keep more businesses closed for longer. I don't know, I think he's done a pretty good job recently.

Work continues to be crazy for us. We offer curbside pickup, which has proven quite popular. We're just a small mom and pop, and aren't equipped to be doing what we're doing. However, we're quite resilient and keep up. We've had quite a few people step up, it's been amazing. We still continue to do almost double the business every day. Recently, a customer complained (in a rather condescending email) about us not wearing masks, so we started wearing those. Man, those are uncomfortable and make it hard to breath sometimes--these weren't made to wear while carrying 50 pounds up steps constantly, but we'll get through.

I read TACs post awhile back about how working in a grocery store during these times feels like any other day--we're just doing our jobs. It felt special at first because it was so new and we were getting thanks that we otherwise don't get from people--I think some people realized how important grocery stores are to society. But now everyday seems like it's just a holiday eve--I've seen the comparison that it's Thanksgiving Eve everyday and it does truly feel like that. But it's been rewarding and I hope we've gained some new customers

I'm curious what happens in Minnesota as well. I suspect some easing up so some businesses can reopen, but overall the stay at home order is extended by at least 2 weeks if not until June. If essential companies can stay open without mass outbreaks, so can non-essential businesses. And if grocery stores can be open without major issues, why can't other retail?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 30, 2020, 06:27:12 AM

I know this is incredibly selfish and a hell of a first world/middle class problem, but I find myself starting to get depressed at the thought of this ending. So many things in my life have changed for the better now that I'm seven weeks into working from home.

1) I'm not beat anymore. I usually have an hour+ commute to work and have to get ready for the office every morning. I've been getting up at 5:30 for the last six years, getting out the door by 6:30. I don't wake up to an alarm anymore. I'm sleeping so much better it's ridiculous. I feel good as soon as the day begins now. I have more time in the evenings and have been able to get a jump start on my yard work for the first time in the six years I've lived here. I don't have the most half-assed property in the neighborhood anymore. I also picked up a second, weekend job about twenty months ago that I've put on the back burner during all this (chef at a grocery store/catering), and it's been amazing having my weekends back.

2) I'm exercising more. Because I don't have to do all the morning shit plus commuting, I'm exercising regularly. For a few weeks now I've been taking my dog out for walks AFTER I'd typically leave for the office. We'll go on a 35-45 minute walk and I'm still back in the house with a few minutes to spare before work. Because I have an extra hour+ after work now, I find myself taking second walks in the afternoon as well. During meetings I put my phone on mute and do dumbbell exercises at my desk. My back has started feeling so much better.

3) Doing home chores during the day frees up time in the evenings. I can utilize the time on my lunch break to do dishes, swap out loads of laundry, vacuum, etc...

4) My diet has improved so much. Because of all the extra time and I have, my meal prep and cooking game has been on point. I'm not eating two or three meals a day in a cafeteria or via takeout anymore. I'm eating less and I'm eating better. I had a turkey burger with lettuce on it last night. LETTUCE!

5) General cost of living has greatly declined. Even with gas being dirt cheap, I'm still driving 1000-1100 less miles
per month now. I'm saving on gas and wear and tear on my vehicle. I'm not dropping $250-$300 a month at bars and restaurants anymore.

6) Doing work I enjoy - You've seen the work I've been doing for the hospitals. I dislike so many things about my day job, and I'm 110% in it for the paychecks and benefits. It's been awesome being able to put so much time and energy into something that actually makes me feel good and useful. I like the feeling of my efforts being utilized for something that's actually contributing to something, rather than just trying to maximize every dime that comes into our coffers (controversial statement, I know).

7) There's a feeling of 'community' that I've never really felt before, or at least can't remember feeling (the weeks after 9/11 maybe?). As mentioned in the last point, it's been great seeing so many corners of the country coming together and making stuff for medical personnel and first responders. Whether it be medical gear/equipment, food for those working 16 hour shifts, or even just thank you letters, it's been really nice seeing people come together. But even just walking around my neighborhood, everything seems kind of transformed in a way. There's so many hearts on people's front doors. Driveways are covered in sidewalk art thanking postal workers and grocery deliverers. There are so many children outside playing. So many people outside walking their dogs or biking. So many people on their porches giving waves and "How's it goings?" to people passing by. The neighborhood feels alive for the first time in the six years I've lived here. At least were I am, everyone seems to have hit a much needed pause button on life and has been able to focus on themselves, their homes, and their families. Everyone I pass seems friendlier somehow.

8) Less stress in general. I miss seeing my friends, but it's been soooo nice not having any social obligations in life. There hasn't been a single thing in the last two months that I've had to force myself to do. No activities I could care less about have required my participation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 30, 2020, 06:37:30 AM

I honestly prefer this way of life in most ways as well. Apart from not being able to see family or friends, which sucks. And eventually we'd want to travel again.

Working from home 4 days a week has been great. The reality is that 8 hours in the office can be done in 4-6 hours at home since there aren't the distractions and side conversations that happen in the office (though I stay logged in for at least 8 hours to make sure I'm on top of anything that comes up). I'm able to get a ton of the household stuff done (I've been doing 100% of the laundry and 80% of everything else), which is taking a weight off my pregnant wife's shoulders. Plus the house is cleaner than it normally is, which makes me happy. Wife gets to sleep in 1-2 extra hours since I can work while supervising the kids getting breakfast. I am going for a couple walks a day as well when the weather is nice and even working outside if it's nice. I've been getting small projects around the house done. I want to try and remember what it is that makes this life so much better this way and try to capture as much of that as possible when things go back to normal. I also intend to get my boss to allow me to work from home at least a couple days a week going forward.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 30, 2020, 06:41:43 AM

In the long run I wouldn't want to forever work from home; it would be boring to remain stuck in my little town all day long, at least going into the city of Milan each day I had time to feel more... "connected", in the middle of it all, if I want to see something I'm already there, I can read in the subway which is by now the only moment where I read...

But so far, working from home isn't bad at all. I gain one hour of sleep, I don't have to pay the monthly fee for the subway, and I have one more hour for fooling around or watching TV series. I actively hope that at least the entirety of May will be spent working from home as well.

Also now being on lockdown there's a sort of a bubble.... we're all closed in, we feel the urgency of the situation, we root for doctors, scientists and relatives. Getting out will be more bleak - back to work but the subway will be regolated for number of people and it will be a mess, maybe this or that eating place won't be available during lunch break, comes the weekend and there are no concerts anyway, travelling isn't safe and it's an unnecessary risk.... the "new normal" will be quite bleak for a while, before all things will start to kick into gear again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on April 30, 2020, 07:14:42 AM

*cackles in introversion*

You think solitude is your ally? You merely adopted the silence. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't hear the city until I was already a man - by then it was nothing to me but deafening!

 :biggrin: :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 30, 2020, 07:16:10 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 30, 2020, 06:27:12 AM

Interesting thoughts...as usual.

Chino, that was an interesting read, I must say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 30, 2020, 07:19:03 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on April 30, 2020, 07:14:42 AM

*cackles in introversion*

You think solitude is your ally? You merely adopted the silence. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't hear the city until I was already a man - by then it was nothing to me but deafening!

 :biggrin: :corn

Captain America worried for the pandemic: "Dr. Banner, now might be a really good time to stay home"
Introverted and antisocial Bruce Banner: "That's my secret, captain. I always stay at home"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 30, 2020, 07:21:07 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 29, 2020, 05:23:48 PM

Went into work today and on my way home stopped at my local liqour and local grocery store since I was already masked and out.  I hadn't been to a store in 2 weeks and it seemed a bit had changed.  Barriers put up in the liqour store between the register and the counter and a limit on only two packages of chicken at the grocery store.  I had no idea about the limit, I grabbed 5 packages of different cuts to stock up since chicken is my go to daily protein and the lady at the register was extremely annoyed by me.  I guess I totally missed a sign or something and felt like an idiot.  I haven't been out much to really have kept up with the rules like that, but I do hear there may be a meat shortage so I don't blame them for the rules... just wish I knew so I didn't accidentally piss off this cashier

You know (basically) where I live; it's a smallish, New England area with a lot of trees and fast food and convenience stores.  It's amazing to me how many now are starting to look like those gas stations on the NJ Turnpike (or any turnpike; not singling out Jersey) with the plexi-glass and the slot to slide your money.  COVID looks like it's cut the odds of the local bodega getting fleeced.  ;) 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 30, 2020, 07:27:56 AM

That post was pretty awesome Chino.  I think you have a very good and healthy perspective.  Thanks for sharing!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 30, 2020, 07:29:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 30, 2020, 06:27:12 AM

I know this is incredibly selfish and a hell of a first world/middle class problem, but I find myself starting to get depressed at the thought of this ending. So many things in my life have changed for the better now that I'm seven weeks into working from home.

1) I'm not beat anymore. I usually have an hour+ commute to work and have to get ready for the office every morning. I've been getting up at 5:30 for the last six years, getting out the door by 6:30. I don't wake up to an alarm anymore. I'm sleeping so much better it's ridiculous. I feel good as soon as the day begins now. I have more time in the evenings and have been able to get a jump start on my yard work for the first time in the six years I've lived here. I don't have the most half-assed property in the neighborhood anymore. I also picked up a second, weekend job about twenty months ago that I've put on the back burner during all this (chef at a grocery store/catering), and it's been amazing having my weekends back.

2) I'm exercising more. Because I don't have to do all the morning shit plus commuting, I'm exercising regularly. For a few weeks now I've been taking my dog out for walks AFTER I'd typically leave for the office. We'll go on a 35-45 minute walk and I'm still back in the house with a few minutes to spare before work. Because I have an extra hour+ after work now, I find myself taking second walks in the afternoon as well. During meetings I put my phone on mute and do dumbbell exercises at my desk. My back has started feeling so much better.

3) Doing home chores during the day frees up time in the evenings. I can utilize the time on my lunch break to do dishes, swap out loads of laundry, vacuum, etc...

4) My diet has improved so much. Because of all the extra time and I have, my meal prep and cooking game has been on point. I'm not eating two or three meals a day in a cafeteria or via takeout anymore. I'm eating less and I'm eating better. I had a turkey burger with lettuce on it last night. LETTUCE!

5) General cost of living has greatly declined. Even with gas being dirt cheap, I'm still driving 1000-1100 less miles
per month now. I'm saving on gas and wear and tear on my vehicle. I'm not dropping $250-$300 a month at bars and restaurants anymore.

6) Doing work I enjoy - You've seen the work I've been doing for the hospitals. I dislike so many things about my day job, and I'm 110% in it for the paychecks and benefits. It's been awesome being able to put so much time and energy into something that actually makes me feel good and useful. I like the feeling of my efforts being utilized for something that's actually contributing to something, rather than just trying to maximize every dime that comes into our coffers (controversial statement, I know).

7) There's a feeling of 'community' that I've never really felt before, or at least can't remember feeling (the weeks after 9/11 maybe?). As mentioned in the last point, it's been great seeing so many corners of the country coming together and making stuff for medical personnel and first responders. Whether it be medical gear/equipment, food for those working 16 hour shifts, or even just thank you letters, it's been really nice seeing people come together. But even just walking around my neighborhood, everything seems kind of transformed in a way. There's so many hearts on people's front doors. Driveways are covered in sidewalk art thanking postal workers and grocery deliverers. There are so many children outside playing. So many people outside walking their dogs or biking. So many people on their porches giving waves and "How's it goings?" to people passing by. The neighborhood feels alive for the first time in the six years I've lived here. At least were I am, everyone seems to have hit a much needed pause button on life and has been able to focus on themselves, their homes, and their families. Everyone I pass seems friendlier somehow.

8) Less stress in general. I miss seeing my friends, but it's been soooo nice not having any social obligations in life. There hasn't been a single thing in the last two months that I've had to force myself to do. No activities I could care less about have required my participation.

LOVE THIS POST.    Other than the exercise (and only because I'm not quite at the level you are) I could have written most of that (and I DID work from home before!).

We're eating better, we're saving money, we're sleeping better... we still have stressors - the family shit has not gone away and in some cases ramped up - but it's a different way of life.  I got that Jeep that's been in pieces in my garage running and DRIVING.  I even took it out for a spin the other night; driving in a little Jeep, topless (the car, not me) and feeling the wind in my (now longer) hair...  man. Peace.   And as for cameraderie, I over-heated the Jeep and pulled into the middle school near me, one of the people who were "congregating" (the school lot is a popular place for people to meet, setting up their camp chairs 10 feet apart and socializing) came over and, masked and respecting distance, offered to help, offered tools, offered the water from their cooler for my radiator.  I just felt it was an exceptional gesture under the circumstances, and wouldn't have happened at all pre-COVID (my town is not one of "those" towns; it's weird that way; I've lived here five years and even though I've blown her driveway a couple times, my neighbor hasn't said five words to me total). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 30, 2020, 07:49:57 AM

While Chino's post was nice, I must say I'm either not getting or seeing the benefits he is.

I've seen all of the signs but it seems more like something to keep the kids busy, and it's not a bad thing. It's a great teaching point for them. But it doesn't exactly scream community to me, especially when I get fucking yelled at at the transfer station for taking my recycles to the dumpster.

I've honestly seen a lack of community, but I work in a grocery store. Most people are generally cool, but everyone just seems so...separated from each other, literally physically but also seemingly emotional.


It just seems like everyone is pointing out of second guessing everything around us. I don't know.

The good news is that my wife and I are still working, my wife from home. So we are not reaping any benefits be it nutritionally, physically, or otherwise. But I still consider us lucky for the paychecks. The best thing I can say about it though is that there's no fucking traffic. 9-5 is now 9 hour day instead of 10+, and I can sleep till 8 to get there on time.

That's great the do gooders (and I'm not mocking them or degrading them. I actually applaud them) are helping with charitable endeavors like making masks and things.  Fantastic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 30, 2020, 08:04:55 AM

I do see some of what Chino wrote (see  my example) but something I've said before still holds:   we're really good at the big gesture - the signs, the drive-by birthday parties - but still learning about the basic, hard, inter-human niceties of respect and tolerance (REAL tolerance, not the token version that it is in the identity politics vernacular).   We're still calling people that disagree with us (politically and otherwise) stupid, or ignorant, or racist, or greedy...   it'd be nice if some of what Chino did write about filtered out nationally.  It's easy to send a tweet, or to sit in your car and beep your horn; that doesn't make you a better, more caring person.  The proof will be in the pudding when the restrictions are lifted and we have to go back to actually interfacing in real time with another human being.    I've got my fingers crossed, but history is not on my side in that regard. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 30, 2020, 09:50:15 AM

Working from home has been great.  Less stress.  Less distractions.  I will definitely dread going back into the office, but at the same time, hopeful that telecommuting becomes a part time norm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 30, 2020, 09:51:19 AM

Nice post Brian....I can relate to a lot of that. When COVID hit the GMD family was running around like crazy. Two kids in hockey and I was coaching both teams....the season was over but the spring skills clinics and spring session were starting.....oldest son was in golf and on the school fishing team.....all three of them take music lessons.....throw in work, house upkeep and all the other details of running a family and it was just crazy how busy we actually were. I'm not suggesting we were unique as a family facing that, there are tons of family's who are busy...especially if you mix in kiddos. I'm just saying that once hockey season started last fall it's been nuts.

In general, for the past few years as the boys have gotten older my wife and I have been 'roommates' more or less. The love and respect is there, that's not an issue. It's just 'busy'. So, this lock down has been a welcome endeavor for us. As Brian mentioned, the saving $$$ on gas/food etc. that comes along with working....I've always had a healthy exercise routine but it's gotten even better, that sense of community is true here as well.....working from home...it's all been great.

But the best part of it is that I've been able to spend 'real' time with my kids and wife. Not that coaching them or watching them perform isn't 'real'.....but, the time we are spending together now is more intimate and I love it. I thought by now I'd be pulling the hair out of my head but it's the opposite. I too am 'sad' about how much I'll miss what we have now. I'm hoping this has changed our perspectives a bit as a family and we can work towards not 'busying' up our lives again when we start to get back to 'normal'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 30, 2020, 09:56:08 AM

There's plus and minus' as with everything in life.  I personally really would rather go back to the way things were.  Working from home is nice and my bank account is enjoying the money not being spent on things, but now we are almost 2 full months into it and I've had enough.  I miss concerts, I miss being able to freely do what I want, I miss my parents, my nieces are growing up without anyone getting to see them, I find myself mostly bored throughout the day.... yea there's lots of benefits and I think the biggest benefit is to mother earth who isn't getting destroyed by humans but I think we can compromise.  I think we can find ways to be better to our planet and keep people working at home but I do miss the real community of being in a community and around people.  I am definitely an introvert, but I still feel a need to be around people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on April 30, 2020, 10:25:20 AM

Agreed with Cramx3. I've been very lucky throughout all this financially and health-wise. The company gave us plague victims two weeks paid leave without using sick time. I've fully recovered and I'm thankful for that but there are so many people out there who are not working. It's sad seeing all these businesses closed down, especially the small ones. I don't know how they're going to survive this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on April 30, 2020, 10:31:56 AM

Count me in as someone who is seeing far more positives than negatives...and I'm DREADING going back to work next Tuesday. 

There's honestly only one thing depressing me at home...and I don't want to get super deep into it here...but I've always been a guy who is extremely physically affectionate....and I'm not talking about just sex, I mean that I'm very emotional and I communicate that physically... and my wife is post menopausal, so means that that form of affection just isn't reciprocated and that causes me a great deal of depression.    But as far as actual relationships in my household (my wife and my two grown sons who live with us), we're all getting along great in our day to day lives.  I love getting a few minor things done around the house.  I read a lot, I nap when I'm tired, I study my bible and try to encourage my friends and relatives with texts and emails.  At night we have family movie night.  We stay in touch with friends in our congregation through Zoom.   

But as far as work goes, I'm a construction electrician.  The job I'm being called back to is dirty (with no running water) and behind schedule. The foreman is kindof a jerk and cares far more about getting the job done than the safety of the crew.  They just moved the start time back to 6am (it was 7) which means I have to get up at 4:30am to get to work.   I'm worried that the job is going to make a show of following the new rules, but will look the other way when they aren't, and anyone who cries foul will be labeled a troublemaker, but I won't know any of that for sure until I go back to work next Tuesday.  I make the union contract wages of almost $60/hr with full employer paid benefits...but sometimes the conditions and the stress still make me wonder if it's worth it.     Not all jobs are dirty though.  I just wish I could quit and find a different job without risking my unemployment.    You can't just quit a job because it sucks.   Unfortunately. 

But the last 6 weeks have been fantastic.  And with the boost in the unemployment payout, I'm actually able to pay my bills and get by without too much adjustment, other than we're eating out less and using a miniscule amount of gas.    I stay busy, I have good relationships.   I'm really not looking forward to this ending.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 30, 2020, 10:36:41 AM

Professionally, there's a good chance I get furlowed here in the next week or two. Being a Construction Project Manager for Healthcare projects is great because Healthcare always seems to have funding. {Problem right now is, our system has suspended all Captiol funded projects. There is no spending outside of covid related projects. So, While I've had 'some' work to do....I've largely just been doing a whole lot of nothing.

 My Director told us our Company is looking into a furlow plan now. We have 33,000 employees across the state of varying pay scale obviously so I don't know where they are targeting. With elective surgeries suspended for the time being....the system just doesn't have the money coming in. Our 'sister' department (Planning, Design and Construction) just placed 95% of their employees on (2) week Covid pay. They're supposed to re-evaluate their department after that. The Director of Our department (Clinical Asset Management) has told us we'd know by the end of the month if we were furlowed or placed on mandatory Covid pay. Well, it's the 30th? Nothing was mentioned in our morning call this morning so who knows? I'll take no news as good news for the time being.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on April 30, 2020, 11:31:29 AM

That really sucks man.  I really hope you are able to weather this.  Apply for unemployment day 1 of your furlow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 30, 2020, 11:33:50 AM

Yeah Gary, good luck with that. That blows.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tomislav95 on April 30, 2020, 11:51:39 AM

Just wanted to share some good news about my country (Croatia). Surely, there never was an outbreak as big as in other corners of the world but given how close Italy is and that Croatia has only about 4 million people in total.
(https://i.imgur.com/WQNFW7D.png)
almost 2/3 people recovered

(https://i.imgur.com/vvO6K4J.png)
new cases by day

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 30, 2020, 12:07:16 PM

That's great news! I hope the rest of the world will soon follow that trend!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 30, 2020, 01:09:36 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on April 30, 2020, 11:31:29 AM

That really sucks man.  I really hope you are able to weather this.  Apply for unemployment day 1 of your furlow.

Quote from: TAC on April 30, 2020, 11:33:50 AM

Yeah Gary, good luck with that. That blows.

Yeah, thanks for the sentiment....it's a bummer BUT if they do institute something I'd get the (2) Weeks of Covid pay first....then, it'd be a furlow. Honestly, there are a lot of people out there that have it worse off. We've been pretty good about our savings and being prepared and I don't think it'd be a 'long' furlow anyway. I'd apply for the unemployment benefits immediately anyway so all in all...it'd be a bummer were it to happen but we will deal with it as it comes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 30, 2020, 01:31:05 PM

Plus ammunition! ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 30, 2020, 01:33:04 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 30, 2020, 01:31:05 PM

Plus ammunition! ;D

You know it  :tup  Recently added to the inventory  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 06:06:29 AM

I don't know why, but yesterday was my tipping point on all of this. I'm tired of being told to stay home. I'm tired of businesses being told to stay closed. I'm tired of not being able to see friends and family. I just want us all to be able to make our own choices about the risks we're wiling to take like with every other seasonal illness.

I don't need a lecture... I'm aware of why we're doing this. I'll continue to make reasonable sacrifices. I'm just fed up with it all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 06:33:45 AM

I get that. But the virus is still spreading. It's not that big a sacrifice to just not go out for a while. Big picture, my friend, it'll hopefully be back to normal soon enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 06:55:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 06:06:29 AM

I don't know why, but yesterday was my tipping point on all of this. I'm tired of being told to stay home. I'm tired of businesses being told to stay closed. I'm tired of not being able to see friends and family. I just want us all to be able to make our own choices about the risks we're wiling to take like with every other seasonal illness.

I don't need a lecture... I'm aware of why we're doing this. I'll continue to make reasonable sacrifices. I'm just fed up with it all.

I felt the same way, but regarding social media.  I got so sick of seeing people brag about where they found cleaning products, or seeing bare meat department shelves, or people asking where they can find clorox wipes, or requesting specific fabric designs from people making masks, or complaining about staying at home or their other neighbors' behaviors.  I'm at a point where I'm stopping reading certain facebook groups because I just don't care anymore. 

I don't mind staying home, it's working ok for my job so far.  But I want things to go back to something that resembles normal - I think if people resume their normal lives, they'll forget about the grocery hoarding and will go back to shopping as they normally would. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:08:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 06:33:45 AM

I get that. But the virus is still spreading. It's not that big a sacrifice to just not go out for a while. Big picture, my friend, it'll hopefully be back to normal soon enough.

if we're waiting for the virus to stop spreading in order for life to go back to normal we have many months or even a year ahead of us. It's not stopping anytime soon. Honestly I feel like we're being treated like children with big, benevolent governor condescendingly patting us on the head and telling us he'll protect us from ourselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 07:14:33 AM

This should surprise exactly no one, but if social media just upped and disappeared overnight I would probably do one of those drive by celebrations.  Even the so-called "benefits" I'm starting to be less convinced of.   I just don't get it.   I know there are some applications where it brings benefit, but they're getting fewer and fewer to me.  This notion that Twitter is a "great way" of communicating things like politics and news... I'm not seeing it.   Certainly, there are 100 tweets a day from our Supreme Leader that discount that theory right out the gate.   But for me, it's doing more to divide than unite, and that's our main problem right now.   For me, this COVID thing has done as much to highlight the divide as anything in recent memory.   Sure, on a person-by-person basis there are a lot of examples of selflessness, but it's not translating to the national political discourse.  We're as entrenched as ever, and with the beginning rumblings of Hillary waiting in the wings, that's not going to get any better without willful effort.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 07:21:10 AM

Judging by all the ridiculous outrage I see here in Illinois, you'd think they're burning the Bill of Rights or something. People act like they've never had to read a book and that being bored is someone else's problem instead of their own, and they act like wearing a facemask is debilitating and trampling over their freedoms. So many people around here calling our governor a Nazi. I'd say it's because of these idiots that we NEED the order in place. They put the order out and then I read dozens of comments saying "lmao no mask for this guy fuck you Pritzker (insert joke about his toilets)". It just all reeks of shortsightedness and ego to me. Not you, lordxizor, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but... I don't want to worry 7 months from now about COVID-19 finally getting me because a whole bunch of hick retards out here won't put on a mask and listen to actual health experts. I just do not understand the logic of "I know better than people who work in the field of health and medicine"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 01, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:08:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 06:33:45 AM

I get that. But the virus is still spreading. It's not that big a sacrifice to just not go out for a while. Big picture, my friend, it'll hopefully be back to normal soon enough.

if we're waiting for the virus to stop spreading in order for life to go back to normal we have many months or even a year ahead of us. It's not stopping anytime soon. Honestly I feel like we're being treated like children with big, benevolent governor condescendingly patting us on the head and telling us he'll protect us from ourselves.

That's because most are too stupid to do what's right. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 01, 2020, 07:28:15 AM

You’re not ‘waiting for the virus to stop spreading’, you’re making sure that not millions of people get sick at the same time. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? And everywhere around the world the same measures are being taken, so it’s not as if the USA is doing things drastically different.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:44:43 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 01, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:08:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 06:33:45 AM

I get that. But the virus is still spreading. It's not that big a sacrifice to just not go out for a while. Big picture, my friend, it'll hopefully be back to normal soon enough.

if we're waiting for the virus to stop spreading in order for life to go back to normal we have many months or even a year ahead of us. It's not stopping anytime soon. Honestly I feel like we're being treated like children with big, benevolent governor condescendingly patting us on the head and telling us he'll protect us from ourselves.

That's because most are too stupid to do what's right. 

IMO, that is a very dangerous position for the government to take.

Quote from: Elite on May 01, 2020, 07:28:15 AM

You’re not ‘waiting for the virus to stop spreading’, you’re making sure that not millions of people get sick at the same time. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? And everywhere around the world the same measures are being taken, so it’s not as if the USA is doing things drastically different.

It's not a difficult concept to understand. But how long is it OK for this to go on? Because the virus is going to limp along for a year or more at this rate. We're not shut down enough to make it die out. Can this continue for another year? You'll have many thousands of businesses go bankrupt. The government will print money (and cause inflation) and raise debt that will burden our country for decades, if not bring about complete economic collapse. You'll have people losing their homes. There is a measurable correlation between people being out of work and increased risk of death from many different factors. Marriages will collapse under the strain of the stress. And on and on. At what point is it better to allow people to make their own choices about the risks they're willing to take?

I'm mostly just ranting because I'm tired of it. I'm going to mostly stay home. I'm going to keep my distance. I understand the value of it for now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 07:46:53 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 07:21:10 AM

Judging by all the ridiculous outrage I see here in Illinois, you'd think they're burning the Bill of Rights or something. People act like they've never had to read a book and that being bored is someone else's problem instead of their own, and they act like wearing a facemask is debilitating and trampling over their freedoms. So many people around here calling our governor a Nazi. I'd say it's because of these idiots that we NEED the order in place. They put the order out and then I read dozens of comments saying "lmao no mask for this guy fuck you Pritzker (insert joke about his toilets)". It just all reeks of shortsightedness and ego to me. Not you, lordxizor, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but... I don't want to worry 7 months from now about COVID-19 finally getting me because a whole bunch of hick retards out here won't put on a mask and listen to actual health experts. I just do not understand the logic of "I know better than people who work in the field of health and medicine"

That is what drives me crazy.  I dislike all of the taxes that Pritzker put in place too.  But this isn't about him, or him overextending his "emergency powers."  It is purely and solely about public health.  I watch his livestream conference every day and the comments just disgust me.  People log on just to say nasty things about him. 

I don't care if you hate the guy, just go along with what he says because this is only about staying healthy.  It's not hard to grasp at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 01, 2020, 07:48:36 AM

That's not the governments take, that's my take.  People are selfish.  If there is a big crowd, would you just turn away and pick another activity?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 01, 2020, 07:50:40 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:44:43 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 01, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:08:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 06:33:45 AM

I get that. But the virus is still spreading. It's not that big a sacrifice to just not go out for a while. Big picture, my friend, it'll hopefully be back to normal soon enough.

if we're waiting for the virus to stop spreading in order for life to go back to normal we have many months or even a year ahead of us. It's not stopping anytime soon. Honestly I feel like we're being treated like children with big, benevolent governor condescendingly patting us on the head and telling us he'll protect us from ourselves.

That's because most are too stupid to do what's right. 

IMO, that is a very dangerous position for the government to take.

Quote from: Elite on May 01, 2020, 07:28:15 AM

You’re not ‘waiting for the virus to stop spreading’, you’re making sure that not millions of people get sick at the same time. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? And everywhere around the world the same measures are being taken, so it’s not as if the USA is doing things drastically different.

It's not a difficult concept to understand. But how long is it OK for this to go on? Because the virus is going to limp along for a year or more at this rate. We're not shut down enough to make it die out. Can this continue for another year? You'll have many thousands of businesses go bankrupt. The government will print money (and cause inflation) and raise debt that will burden our country for decades, if not bring about complete economic collapse. You'll have people losing their homes. There is a measurable correlation between people being out of work and increased risk of death from many different factors. Marriages will collapse under the strain of the stress. And on and on. At what point is it better to allow people to make their own choices about the risks they're willing to take?

I'm mostly just ranting because I'm tired of it. I'm going to mostly stay home. I'm going to keep my distance. I understand the value of it for now.

they would be making a choice for other people as well,  not just themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 07:51:16 AM

First, I think it's safe to assume that most people are sick of staying home. A few people seem to be thriving, but I don't see that being the main position. Most of us REALLY want this to end ASAP. So I think your frustration is totally justified and makes perfect sense. It's something most of us are struggling with, and it really sucks.

But just to one of your last questions about people assuming their own risk; that is simply not the case. It's not about whether or not you are free to risk your own health, it's weather you are free to risk other people's health. It's just too easy to spread. If you're fine getting sick (and probably recovering without issue) that's one thing, but you're also risking spreading the disease to people who haven't accepted the risk you have. So that's the main reason we're social distancing.

And I don't know how it is in other states, but I live in New York (Long Island) and we're getting hit hard. I still manage to go out to the store and the office a few times a week. I'm not trapped in doors 24/7, so I'm not positive who is to that extreme, in America at least. I just wear my mask, my gloves if I can, and I limit where I go. It's doable. And no one is saying this will last another year. I think even New York is talking about slowly opening up up-state to see how it goes. That's how this will end, slowly but surely. It's not like they'll say "Okay, the country is shut down until June first, then everything goes back to normal." No, it'll be little bit by little bit. Safer areas first to see how it goes and then future decisions will depend on that. Let's just be patient.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 01, 2020, 08:04:10 AM

Adami, Trying to stay positive is what we all should strive for.  It's hard, I know but I always tell myself it's for the betterment for myself and all others as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:07:58 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 01, 2020, 07:28:15 AM

You’re not ‘waiting for the virus to stop spreading’, you’re making sure that not millions of people get sick at the same time. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? And everywhere around the world the same measures are being taken, so it’s not as if the USA is doing things drastically different.

Not wrong, and not unfair, but in all these society-wide endeavors, you HAVE to take into account human nature. I have no doubt that this is going to be misconstrued, or taken out of context, but we have, here in the U.S., a pretty resilient streak of "fuck you" in us.  We celebrate the middle finger.  We elected a guy whose sole credit, whose sole attribute was that he was "not Establishment".   We have a candidate who's come within a hair's breadth of getting his party's nomination whose whole schtick is sticking it to the "man", the "man" being "Wall Street" as symbol for the entire economy.   You look at the four major networks on TV:  ALL FOUR have a reality TV show as their number one show (https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/tag/tv-show-ratings-by-channel/), and depending on how you count (because demographics count here) a majority of their top five are "reality".  (Then go watch these shows and realize what the message is:  you don't need to follow the rules, you don't need to work 9-to-5, you just need to "be different", get that sleeve, pierce that nose, and warble your way to independence on American Idol! Or fuck over your neighbor playing "the game" that is Survivor!)

For better or worse, we're not a "yes, master, no master, whatever you say, master" kind of country. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:09:52 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 01, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:08:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 06:33:45 AM

I get that. But the virus is still spreading. It's not that big a sacrifice to just not go out for a while. Big picture, my friend, it'll hopefully be back to normal soon enough.

if we're waiting for the virus to stop spreading in order for life to go back to normal we have many months or even a year ahead of us. It's not stopping anytime soon. Honestly I feel like we're being treated like children with big, benevolent governor condescendingly patting us on the head and telling us he'll protect us from ourselves.

That's because most are too stupid to do what's right.

I would quibble with this just a little; I don't think it's "stupidity" as much as values.  What's "right" isn't "taking one for the team whatever it takes", it's "how can I live MY LIFE to the fullest, how can I maximize my "journey"".    Sitting in the living room playing PS4 with the fam isn't that for many people. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 01, 2020, 08:13:12 AM

I think the frustration is normal.  We all had a sudden stop and change in our lives, many for the worse. Even myself who is doing fine in most other manners, this is still getting to me and moreso now than before and I can only imagine another month of this and I'm going to start feeling like I'm ready to explode.  Doesn't mean I'm going to protest or not wear a face covering, just means it feels like I'm dying inside slowly from the effects on society, not the virus itself.  This week has also been dark and dreary every single day, plus I think the effects of losing my grandma and my mom still being sick is still weighing on me a bit.  It's a difficult time and we just need to stay strong and pull through together.  TGIF.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 01, 2020, 08:18:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:09:52 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 01, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:08:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 06:33:45 AM

I get that. But the virus is still spreading. It's not that big a sacrifice to just not go out for a while. Big picture, my friend, it'll hopefully be back to normal soon enough.

if we're waiting for the virus to stop spreading in order for life to go back to normal we have many months or even a year ahead of us. It's not stopping anytime soon. Honestly I feel like we're being treated like children with big, benevolent governor condescendingly patting us on the head and telling us he'll protect us from ourselves.

That's because most are too stupid to do what's right.

I would quibble with this just a little; I don't think it's "stupidity" as much as values.  What's "right" isn't "taking one for the team whatever it takes", it's "how can I live MY LIFE to the fullest, how can I maximize my "journey"".    Sitting in the living room playing PS4 with the fam isn't that for many people.

I drove by the Esplanade and saw so many people walking next to the Charles that it took me back. The amount of people there were staggering.  No common sense to drive somewhere else to walk.  That's the issue, common sense goes out the window.  The world is a big place.  Pick another less crowded space to walk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 01, 2020, 08:19:47 AM

Frustration is the perfect word for it.  I know yesterday was a hard day for me.  I'm starting to get more easily annoyed with the way some things are being handled in my job and when I speak up about it - in a nutshell they are looking at everything in the near term and totally discounting the long view which drives me insane - I feel like I'm being selfish or not being a team player.  Ugh there is no winning these discussions.  There is a lot of stuffing of emotions and that doesn't feel good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:21:18 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 07:46:53 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 07:21:10 AM

Judging by all the ridiculous outrage I see here in Illinois, you'd think they're burning the Bill of Rights or something. People act like they've never had to read a book and that being bored is someone else's problem instead of their own, and they act like wearing a facemask is debilitating and trampling over their freedoms. So many people around here calling our governor a Nazi. I'd say it's because of these idiots that we NEED the order in place. They put the order out and then I read dozens of comments saying "lmao no mask for this guy fuck you Pritzker (insert joke about his toilets)". It just all reeks of shortsightedness and ego to me. Not you, lordxizor, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but... I don't want to worry 7 months from now about COVID-19 finally getting me because a whole bunch of hick retards out here won't put on a mask and listen to actual health experts. I just do not understand the logic of "I know better than people who work in the field of health and medicine"

That is what drives me crazy.  I dislike all of the taxes that Pritzker put in place too.  But this isn't about him, or him overextending his "emergency powers."  It is purely and solely about public health.  I watch his livestream conference every day and the comments just disgust me.  People log on just to say nasty things about him. 

I don't care if you hate the guy, just go along with what he says because this is only about staying healthy.  It's not hard to grasp at all.

TO YOU (and, admittedly, to many).   But I have heard several people say so far "so what if I get it?   If I do and I survive, so be it, and if I don't, it was my time".   Not everyone is scared of this, nor should we force them to be.   I'm in the "I'm hunkered down" camp, but I can afford to do that, because I've worked out of the house for years now.   My kids are toeing the line so far, but they are BRISTLING.   My stepdaugher - a hairstylist who lives in walking distance of an Army base down south - is like "fuck this, I need to earn, and I want to spend time with my friends".  My daughter - a freshman in college who just pledged a sorority - is like "fuck this, I have four years here to make the most of it and I don't want to spend it in my parents' living room converted to my work station, playing virtual video games on my phone with my friends who are on Zoom". 

I think there ought to be more focus at this point - two months in - into putting our ingenuity to use to see if there's a way of having cake and eating it too.  Maybe the casinos and concerts are out, but is there a way of reopening in a manner that STILL allows us to be reasonably safe, within a risk-reward structure we can all live with.   We accept risk every day; some of us smoke, some of us drive (fast), some of us ride motorcycles, some of us work in industries with higher than average injury/illness rates, so that's nothing new.  It's a matter of applying that to this situation.  This is perhaps where a leader like Trump fails most spectacularly, since he seems to have little "curiosity" in terms of what could be, in terms of innovation.   We need our 2020 version of "before this decade is out... landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth (https://www.space.com/11772-president-kennedy-historic-speech-moon-space.html)" imagination.   As I've said so many times now, we're really good at the grand, symbolic gesture; I think we're losing our muscle memory on how to do the smaller, important things, the things that don't translate into a "meme" or a witty tweet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 07:46:53 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 07:21:10 AM

Judging by all the ridiculous outrage I see here in Illinois, you'd think they're burning the Bill of Rights or something. People act like they've never had to read a book and that being bored is someone else's problem instead of their own, and they act like wearing a facemask is debilitating and trampling over their freedoms. So many people around here calling our governor a Nazi. I'd say it's because of these idiots that we NEED the order in place. They put the order out and then I read dozens of comments saying "lmao no mask for this guy fuck you Pritzker (insert joke about his toilets)". It just all reeks of shortsightedness and ego to me. Not you, lordxizor, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but... I don't want to worry 7 months from now about COVID-19 finally getting me because a whole bunch of hick retards out here won't put on a mask and listen to actual health experts. I just do not understand the logic of "I know better than people who work in the field of health and medicine"

That is what drives me crazy.  I dislike all of the taxes that Pritzker put in place too.  But this isn't about him, or him overextending his "emergency powers."  It is purely and solely about public health.  I watch his livestream conference every day and the comments just disgust me.  People log on just to say nasty things about him. 

I don't care if you hate the guy, just go along with what he says because this is only about staying healthy.  It's not hard to grasp at all.

Exactly. I do the same thing as you, I tune in every day, they tune in just to bitch and say terrible things. Yesterday I tuned in via Facebook and it was nothing but a flood of angry reactions and "We'Re MoRe ThAn ChIcAgO." They're so anti-Chicago and divided here that they think the virus just like, stops at a magic barrier at the Chicago metropolitan area limits? Almost every county in the state has numerous or dozens of cases now. Your whole post but especially the last two sentences are dead on balls accurate. The lack of common sense is frightening, man.

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:25:17 AM

Serious question:  anyone drinking more?   It's subtle, and I didn't notice it, but my daughter did, I went from a half a glass of wine while cooking, to two full(er) glasses during the dinner hour, and now, especially on weekends, adding an occasional splash of vodka to the "soda water and ginger ale" that I normally drink.   Ordinarily I'd chalk that up to weather, but it hasn't really been that nice here, so it sounds more like a rationalization even to me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 01, 2020, 08:32:39 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:25:17 AM

Serious question:  anyone drinking more?   It's subtle, and I didn't notice it, but my daughter did, I went from a half a glass of wine while cooking, to two full(er) glasses during the dinner hour, and now, especially on weekends, adding an occasional splash of vodka to the "soda water and ginger ale" that I normally drink.   Ordinarily I'd chalk that up to weather, but it hasn't really been that nice here, so it sounds more like a rationalization even to me.

My drinking has greatly decreased. I'm guessing by like 75%+.

I'm smoking a stupid amount of reefer though. Far more than usual. At least 2X-3X my normal amount.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 01, 2020, 08:33:55 AM

Drinking more, toking more, eating more...yep.  At first it was like, if I'm going to get sick then fuck it - my last meal isn't going to be salad.  Then it just kept going.  But I'm working it back a bit now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 08:34:54 AM

Not drinking at all but I am more or less high all day, but that's not really a change due to COVID  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 08:48:15 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:21:18 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 07:46:53 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 07:21:10 AM

Judging by all the ridiculous outrage I see here in Illinois, you'd think they're burning the Bill of Rights or something. People act like they've never had to read a book and that being bored is someone else's problem instead of their own, and they act like wearing a facemask is debilitating and trampling over their freedoms. So many people around here calling our governor a Nazi. I'd say it's because of these idiots that we NEED the order in place. They put the order out and then I read dozens of comments saying "lmao no mask for this guy fuck you Pritzker (insert joke about his toilets)". It just all reeks of shortsightedness and ego to me. Not you, lordxizor, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but... I don't want to worry 7 months from now about COVID-19 finally getting me because a whole bunch of hick retards out here won't put on a mask and listen to actual health experts. I just do not understand the logic of "I know better than people who work in the field of health and medicine"

That is what drives me crazy.  I dislike all of the taxes that Pritzker put in place too.  But this isn't about him, or him overextending his "emergency powers."  It is purely and solely about public health.  I watch his livestream conference every day and the comments just disgust me.  People log on just to say nasty things about him. 

I don't care if you hate the guy, just go along with what he says because this is only about staying healthy.  It's not hard to grasp at all.

TO YOU (and, admittedly, to many).   But I have heard several people say so far "so what if I get it?   If I do and I survive, so be it, and if I don't, it was my time".   Not everyone is scared of this, nor should we force them to be.   I'm in the "I'm hunkered down" camp, but I can afford to do that, because I've worked out of the house for years now.   My kids are toeing the line so far, but they are BRISTLING.   My stepdaugher - a hairstylist who lives in walking distance of an Army base down south - is like "fuck this, I need to earn, and I want to spend time with my friends".  My daughter - a freshman in college who just pledged a sorority - is like "fuck this, I have four years here to make the most of it and I don't want to spend it in my parents' living room converted to my work station, playing virtual video games on my phone with my friends who are on Zoom". 

I think it depends on the person, their living situation and .  Would I catch the illiness and likely survive?  Yes. I'm not afraid being sick.  Would I be absolutely devastated if I got ill and then passed it to my 2 and 5 year old children?  ABSOLUTELY.  Or passed it to my immunocompromised father in law, or my higher-at risk mother/step-dad in law...yes.  So it becomes a public health issue for everyone because it's very, very easy to get sick yourself and transmit this thing around to someone that may not survive it.  It may be someone you know, it may be a hairdresser that gives the illness to an elderly woman that is their client.

I understand why some people aren't afraid, but they probably have people in their lives that they wouldn't want to risk exposure to.  I agree that there are ways to do things smartly so people can work, but when a portion of the population just dismisses those suggestions because of politics alone, it angers me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 01, 2020, 08:54:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:25:17 AM

Serious question:  anyone drinking more?   It's subtle, and I didn't notice it, but my daughter did, I went from a half a glass of wine while cooking, to two full(er) glasses during the dinner hour, and now, especially on weekends, adding an occasional splash of vodka to the "soda water and ginger ale" that I normally drink.   Ordinarily I'd chalk that up to weather, but it hasn't really been that nice here, so it sounds more like a rationalization even to me.

Definitely drinking more.  Along with cooking more, I've been experimenting in making different cocktails with various things in my bar and fridge. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 08:54:57 AM

I've started drinking a beer or two in the afternoon while working out on the patio. It's kind of nice. Definitely drinking a little more overall compared to normal times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on May 01, 2020, 09:21:45 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 01, 2020, 08:32:39 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:25:17 AM

Serious question:  anyone drinking more?   It's subtle, and I didn't notice it, but my daughter did, I went from a half a glass of wine while cooking, to two full(er) glasses during the dinner hour, and now, especially on weekends, adding an occasional splash of vodka to the "soda water and ginger ale" that I normally drink.   Ordinarily I'd chalk that up to weather, but it hasn't really been that nice here, so it sounds more like a rationalization even to me.

My drinking has greatly decreased. I'm guessing by like 75%+.
.
I'm smoking a stupid amount of reefer though. Far more than usual. At least 2X-3X my normal amount.

If I had access to reefer, I would take it up again.  I could have been busted so many times back in the 70's and 80's.

Are the beaches open in Florida, Gulf Shores and the Carolina's?  We canceled our first week of June beach trip to Panama City.  We are going to wait until last minute for July 4-11, assuming they stay open.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 01, 2020, 09:28:30 AM

My day To day hasn’t really changed at all. My evening routine is the same. So boozing is the same. Haven’t smoked weed in years. Not going to start either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 01, 2020, 09:31:09 AM

I'm occasionally having Bailey's with my coffee in the morning (which I normally only do on vacation...but hey, I'm kinda on vacation.  :lol )  But my nightly drinking is about the same.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 01, 2020, 09:32:07 AM

I'm eating like a pig

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 01, 2020, 09:32:12 AM

Here's where I am as of today:

*rely on facts and not fear
*wear a mask while in public
*I have faith in our species and our country. I think we far exceeded expectations on every metric compared to the initial doom and gloom. For instace, the prevailing theory was that we wouldn't have a vaccine for at least 18 months. I'll bet we have one by late fall.

As of today:

Total cases vs. U.S. population
.0030487805

Total deaths vs. U.S. population
.0002134146

Total unemployed: over 30 million

It's time to ease back into normalcy while using common sense as our guide.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 09:40:29 AM

Try being mocked by your boss - your father - for wearing a face mask at work. I'm about at my breaking point; my anxiety is at such a high point right now my chest hurts. I'm glad it's Friday... The numbers are STILL on the rise here. Cases doubled in my town this week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 09:43:00 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 01, 2020, 09:32:12 AM

I think we far exceeded expectations on every metric compared to the initial doom and gloom.

Concerning this. Some time back....I cannot recall which thread....I lamented about the fact our media has been especially over the top with the 'doom and gloom' coverage. EVERYTHING they cover as a collective is worse case scenario.....it's gonna be the 'biggest' snow storm ever....this thunderstorm is going to be the most devastating.....this hurricane is going to the the largest EVER.....and so on. It's non stop and always over the top.

Not to discount the severity of the contagious nature of COVID...clearly it's easily transmitted.....but the coverage of this 'pandemic' has been from the fear mongering/doom and gloom playbook and they took it to a whole new level. I've said from the start that had the media as a collective chose to handle the reportage of this in a more professional manner it'd have decreased a lot of the anxiety and fear.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 09:47:32 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 08:48:15 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:21:18 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 07:46:53 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 07:21:10 AM

Judging by all the ridiculous outrage I see here in Illinois, you'd think they're burning the Bill of Rights or something. People act like they've never had to read a book and that being bored is someone else's problem instead of their own, and they act like wearing a facemask is debilitating and trampling over their freedoms. So many people around here calling our governor a Nazi. I'd say it's because of these idiots that we NEED the order in place. They put the order out and then I read dozens of comments saying "lmao no mask for this guy fuck you Pritzker (insert joke about his toilets)". It just all reeks of shortsightedness and ego to me. Not you, lordxizor, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but... I don't want to worry 7 months from now about COVID-19 finally getting me because a whole bunch of hick retards out here won't put on a mask and listen to actual health experts. I just do not understand the logic of "I know better than people who work in the field of health and medicine"

That is what drives me crazy.  I dislike all of the taxes that Pritzker put in place too.  But this isn't about him, or him overextending his "emergency powers."  It is purely and solely about public health.  I watch his livestream conference every day and the comments just disgust me.  People log on just to say nasty things about him. 

I don't care if you hate the guy, just go along with what he says because this is only about staying healthy.  It's not hard to grasp at all.

TO YOU (and, admittedly, to many).   But I have heard several people say so far "so what if I get it?   If I do and I survive, so be it, and if I don't, it was my time".   Not everyone is scared of this, nor should we force them to be.   I'm in the "I'm hunkered down" camp, but I can afford to do that, because I've worked out of the house for years now.   My kids are toeing the line so far, but they are BRISTLING.   My stepdaugher - a hairstylist who lives in walking distance of an Army base down south - is like "fuck this, I need to earn, and I want to spend time with my friends".  My daughter - a freshman in college who just pledged a sorority - is like "fuck this, I have four years here to make the most of it and I don't want to spend it in my parents' living room converted to my work station, playing virtual video games on my phone with my friends who are on Zoom". 

I think it depends on the person, their living situation and .  Would I catch the illiness and likely survive?  Yes. I'm not afraid being sick.  Would I be absolutely devastated if I got ill and then passed it to my 2 and 5 year old children?  ABSOLUTELY.  Or passed it to my immunocompromised father in law, or my higher-at risk mother/step-dad in law...yes.  So it becomes a public health issue for everyone because it's very, very easy to get sick yourself and transmit this thing around to someone that may not survive it.  It may be someone you know, it may be a hairdresser that gives the illness to an elderly woman that is their client.

I understand why some people aren't afraid, but they probably have people in their lives that they wouldn't want to risk exposure to.  I agree that there are ways to do things smartly so people can work, but when a portion of the population just dismisses those suggestions because of politics alone, it angers me.

I'm in a sort of weird position here, because I lean to a more libertarian point of view, but I have that risk element.  My dad is probably first in line in terms of be ing susceptible.  He's got an immuno-deficiency problem to start with and two battles with cancer (minor colds incapacitate him; he got the flu about 15 years ago - when he was 65 - and he was on death's door THEN).  My brother and I have spoken about this, and we're regrettably resigned to the fact that if he does get it, the odds are not in his favor.  I have a mother-in-law in a similar position for different reasons, and two children with severe asthma, and so it's a real thing.  But... and I recognize that this sounds cold, it's not the world's problem to make sure they're safe.  It might be a public health ISSUE, but it is necessarily a public SOLUTION?  It's a fair discussion to have to ask whether the State Of Florida has any role - and if so, what role - in my dad's safe keeping.   It's a fair discussion to ask the same questions of the State of Connecticut.   

At the very least, there shouldn't be the personal judgment regarding those that have a differing point of view.  Grappler, I agree with the "angering" part, and share it, but it's broader than that.  I see just as much "politicizing" of the pro-protectionist point of view too.  Not everyone advocating for an early opening is a money-grubbing Trump sycophant with no compassion or regard for human life.  I get that's not what YOU said, but the argument that government has the sole, or at least the main, responsibility for protecting each and every person as they are invites that sort of point of view (and it's one I've personally seen on more than one occasion).   Here in Connecticut, that's a prevailing argument; yet, we (NY, NJ, MA, and CT) are all Democratically led, have all taken significant actions to deal with this, yet still have roughly half the cases of the United States, and more importantly, roughly half the deaths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 01, 2020, 09:48:28 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:25:17 AM

Serious question:  anyone drinking more?   

Well, I went from 0 to 0, so about the same.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 01, 2020, 09:56:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 09:47:32 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 08:48:15 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:21:18 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2020, 07:46:53 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 07:21:10 AM

Judging by all the ridiculous outrage I see here in Illinois, you'd think they're burning the Bill of Rights or something. People act like they've never had to read a book and that being bored is someone else's problem instead of their own, and they act like wearing a facemask is debilitating and trampling over their freedoms. So many people around here calling our governor a Nazi. I'd say it's because of these idiots that we NEED the order in place. They put the order out and then I read dozens of comments saying "lmao no mask for this guy fuck you Pritzker (insert joke about his toilets)". It just all reeks of shortsightedness and ego to me. Not you, lordxizor, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but... I don't want to worry 7 months from now about COVID-19 finally getting me because a whole bunch of hick retards out here won't put on a mask and listen to actual health experts. I just do not understand the logic of "I know better than people who work in the field of health and medicine"

That is what drives me crazy.  I dislike all of the taxes that Pritzker put in place too.  But this isn't about him, or him overextending his "emergency powers."  It is purely and solely about public health.  I watch his livestream conference every day and the comments just disgust me.  People log on just to say nasty things about him. 

I don't care if you hate the guy, just go along with what he says because this is only about staying healthy.  It's not hard to grasp at all.

TO YOU (and, admittedly, to many).   But I have heard several people say so far "so what if I get it?   If I do and I survive, so be it, and if I don't, it was my time".   Not everyone is scared of this, nor should we force them to be.   I'm in the "I'm hunkered down" camp, but I can afford to do that, because I've worked out of the house for years now.   My kids are toeing the line so far, but they are BRISTLING.   My stepdaugher - a hairstylist who lives in walking distance of an Army base down south - is like "fuck this, I need to earn, and I want to spend time with my friends".  My daughter - a freshman in college who just pledged a sorority - is like "fuck this, I have four years here to make the most of it and I don't want to spend it in my parents' living room converted to my work station, playing virtual video games on my phone with my friends who are on Zoom". 

I think it depends on the person, their living situation and .  Would I catch the illiness and likely survive?  Yes. I'm not afraid being sick.  Would I be absolutely devastated if I got ill and then passed it to my 2 and 5 year old children?  ABSOLUTELY.  Or passed it to my immunocompromised father in law, or my higher-at risk mother/step-dad in law...yes.  So it becomes a public health issue for everyone because it's very, very easy to get sick yourself and transmit this thing around to someone that may not survive it.  It may be someone you know, it may be a hairdresser that gives the illness to an elderly woman that is their client.

I understand why some people aren't afraid, but they probably have people in their lives that they wouldn't want to risk exposure to.  I agree that there are ways to do things smartly so people can work, but when a portion of the population just dismisses those suggestions because of politics alone, it angers me.

I'm in a sort of weird position here, because I lean to a more libertarian point of view, but I have that risk element.  My dad is probably first in line in terms of be ing susceptible.  He's got an immuno-deficiency problem to start with and two battles with cancer (minor colds incapacitate him; he got the flu about 15 years ago - when he was 65 - and he was on death's door THEN).  My brother and I have spoken about this, and we're regrettably resigned to the fact that if he does get it, the odds are not in his favor.  I have a mother-in-law in a similar position for different reasons, and two children with severe asthma, and so it's a real thing.  But... and I recognize that this sounds cold, it's not the world's problem to make sure they're safe.  It might be a public health ISSUE, but it is necessarily a public SOLUTION?  It's a fair discussion to have to ask whether the State Of Florida has any role - and if so, what role - in my dad's safe keeping.   It's a fair discussion to ask the same questions of the State of Connecticut.   

At the very least, there shouldn't be the personal judgment regarding those that have a differing point of view.  Grappler, I agree with the "angering" part, and share it, but it's broader than that.  I see just as much "politicizing" of the pro-protectionist point of view too.  Not everyone advocating for an early opening is a money-grubbing Trump sycophant with no compassion or regard for human life.  I get that's not what YOU said, but the argument that government has the sole, or at least the main, responsibility for protecting each and every person as they are invites that sort of point of view (and it's one I've personally seen on more than one occasion).   Here in Connecticut, that's a prevailing argument; yet, we (NY, NJ, MA, and CT) are all Democratically led, have all taken significant actions to deal with this, yet still have roughly half the cases of the United States, and more importantly, roughly half the deaths.

The very nature of this virus mean every time we go out in public we put OTHER people at risk, not just ourselves.   Obviously all of us have to go out for supplies and stuff at some point but states restrcting that to the bare minimum was (and is) a justifiable measure in this situation. I'm not saying you don't know that or that you disagree, but I felt it was absent from that post.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 01, 2020, 09:59:18 AM

Life at home, other than me not working and my wife teaching from home and having the kids here all day, isn't that different. Eating and drinking the same, playing with the kids at night, all the usual family stuff. The only thing I have been missing is getting my kids and my sister's kids together and seeing my parents. My wife is at the point of "Let's all get in the car and just drive somewhere, just to get out of the house." I feel no desire to do that.

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2020, 07:44:43 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 01, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

That's because most are too stupid to do what's right. 

IMO, that is a very dangerous position for the government to take.

I'd substitute 'many' for 'most.' But I don't know how much I want to defer to the government as well. I wonder if they presented the social distancing guidelines as suggestions and not matters of law how people would react. The more you press down on people, the more they are going to resist. So you'd have some people going to the beaches who are all "eh, I got this, I don't need you to tell me how to live my life" and you'd have others say "staying home sounds like a good idea, I'll do that for a while." So there would be a measure of less human interaction. Maybe it wouldn't be enough though to make a dent in the transmissions.

The only thing I am getting pretty damn tired of is hearing my governor and Bill Gates telling us how "we are all suffering." 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 01, 2020, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 01, 2020, 09:48:28 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:25:17 AM

Serious question:  anyone drinking more?   

Well, I went from 0 to 0, so about the same.

Zero to Zero here, too.  But I will say that I'm glad that the local dispensary is considered "essential".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 10:00:27 AM

Another interesting stat I saw was that California's death rate for COVID... who has/had one of the most strict COVID responses as far as restrictions....is 5 deaths per 100,000 people. Alternatively, Texas....who was/is pretty lenient on it's restrictions is 6 per 100,000

Out of respect to Marc and others here who have had relatives/friends that have passed away from either Covid or Complications to existing illnesses because of Covid....I'm not trying to infer that it's not a deadly virus.

I think that as more information and stats are collected it seems like a large portion of our population has come in contact with Covid and probably been asymptomatic. I personally think this thing was around in the US last fall. I know in our area the number of bad Flu cases were up and I personally know six people who had a 'bad case' of the 'Flu'. My wife's school was hit by it and a bunch of her students were out for a while.

My point is that yes, Covid can be deadly....like any other virus....but I'm starting to warm to the stance of these extreme measures we took that has collapsed our economy might not have been necessary. Gloves, Masks and good hygiene might well have been just as effective as locking everyone indoors for two months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 10:01:38 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 01, 2020, 09:48:28 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 08:25:17 AM

Serious question:  anyone drinking more?   

Well, I went from 0 to 0, so about the same.

 :lol   Same here.  All I've noticed is that I've been running 5-6 days a week now as compared to the 3-4 days a week I had been doing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 10:05:16 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 09:43:00 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 01, 2020, 09:32:12 AM

I think we far exceeded expectations on every metric compared to the initial doom and gloom.

Concerning this. Some time back....I cannot recall which thread....I lamented about the fact our media has been especially over the top with the 'doom and gloom' coverage. EVERYTHING they cover as a collective is worse case scenario.....it's gonna be the 'biggest' snow storm ever....this thunderstorm is going to be the most devastating.....this hurricane is going to the the largest EVER.....and so on. It's non stop and always over the top.

Not to discount the severity of the contagious nature of COVID...clearly it's easily transmitted.....but the coverage of this 'pandemic' has been from the fear mongering/doom and gloom playbook and they took it to a whole new level. I've said from the start that had the media as a collective chose to handle the reportage of this in a more professional manner it'd have decreased a lot of the anxiety and fear.

I stopped watching cable news almost entirely, but the other day I put it on for a half a second for (reasons not related to COVID or news).   I mentioned over in the P/R thread (I think; they all blend together) that in that 2 minutes that it was on, I heard Brook Baldwin intone, with the gravitas of a funeral eulogy, that "the United States today, passed one <pause>  MILLION <pause> cases of coronavirus.  <longer pause>."   Okay.  So?  I can see that on the screen in the little box to the right of your entirely over-dramatic, but still beautiful*, face.  What does that MEAN?  How about telling me the slope of the various curves?  How about telling me the trends, and letting ME decide if our leadership has failed us or saved us (or something in between)?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 10:13:18 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 10:05:16 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 09:43:00 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 01, 2020, 09:32:12 AM

I think we far exceeded expectations on every metric compared to the initial doom and gloom.

Concerning this. Some time back....I cannot recall which thread....I lamented about the fact our media has been especially over the top with the 'doom and gloom' coverage. EVERYTHING they cover as a collective is worse case scenario.....it's gonna be the 'biggest' snow storm ever....this thunderstorm is going to be the most devastating.....this hurricane is going to the the largest EVER.....and so on. It's non stop and always over the top.

Not to discount the severity of the contagious nature of COVID...clearly it's easily transmitted.....but the coverage of this 'pandemic' has been from the fear mongering/doom and gloom playbook and they took it to a whole new level. I've said from the start that had the media as a collective chose to handle the reportage of this in a more professional manner it'd have decreased a lot of the anxiety and fear.

I stopped watching cable news almost entirely, but the other day I put it on for a half a second for (reasons not related to COVID or news).   I mentioned over in the P/R thread (I think; they all blend together) that in that 2 minutes that it was on, I heard Brook Baldwin intone, with the gravitas of a funeral eulogy, that "the United States today, passed one <pause>  MILLION <pause> cases of coronavirus.  <longer pause>."   Okay.  So?  I can see that on the screen in the little box to the right of your entirely over-dramatic, but still beautiful*, face.  What does that MEAN?  How about telling me the slope of the various curves?  How about telling me the trends, and letting ME decide if our leadership has failed us or saved us (or something in between)?

Yep. Or Why not talk about the literal hundreds of thousands of people who went in to the hospital with Covid and left.......gasp......ALIVE.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 10:13:29 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 01, 2020, 09:56:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 09:47:32 AM

I'm in a sort of weird position here, because I lean to a more libertarian point of view, but I have that risk element.  My dad is probably first in line in terms of be ing susceptible.  He's got an immuno-deficiency problem to start with and two battles with cancer (minor colds incapacitate him; he got the flu about 15 years ago - when he was 65 - and he was on death's door THEN).  My brother and I have spoken about this, and we're regrettably resigned to the fact that if he does get it, the odds are not in his favor.  I have a mother-in-law in a similar position for different reasons, and two children with severe asthma, and so it's a real thing.  But... and I recognize that this sounds cold, it's not the world's problem to make sure they're safe.  It might be a public health ISSUE, but it is necessarily a public SOLUTION?  It's a fair discussion to have to ask whether the State Of Florida has any role - and if so, what role - in my dad's safe keeping.   It's a fair discussion to ask the same questions of the State of Connecticut.   

At the very least, there shouldn't be the personal judgment regarding those that have a differing point of view.  Grappler, I agree with the "angering" part, and share it, but it's broader than that.  I see just as much "politicizing" of the pro-protectionist point of view too.  Not everyone advocating for an early opening is a money-grubbing Trump sycophant with no compassion or regard for human life.  I get that's not what YOU said, but the argument that government has the sole, or at least the main, responsibility for protecting each and every person as they are invites that sort of point of view (and it's one I've personally seen on more than one occasion).   Here in Connecticut, that's a prevailing argument; yet, we (NY, NJ, MA, and CT) are all Democratically led, have all taken significant actions to deal with this, yet still have roughly half the cases of the United States, and more importantly, roughly half the deaths.

The very nature of this virus mean every time we go out in public we put OTHER people at risk, not just ourselves.   Obviously all of us have to go out for supplies and stuff at some point but states restrcting that to the bare minimum was (and is) a justifiable measure in this situation. I'm not saying you don't know that or that you disagree, but I felt it was absent from that post.

I do understand that, but it IS absent from that post on purpose.  That's the fundamental nature of the question that we SHOULD be able to ask.   Does the fact that other people might be at risk fall on the GOVERNMENT to manage, or those other people?   Or a combination of both? 

This is a fundamental aspect of ALL rights questions.   Do I have the "right" to never hear anything racist ever?  Or is it my responsibility to accept that some people feel that way and I tune it out?  Do I have the "right" to be at zero risk for the inhalation of second hand smoke?  Or is it my responsibility to accept that the risk isn't zero and I may have to micro-manage my situation to accommodate what I think the risk ought to be?   Do I have the "right" to have the entire world acquiesce to my mindset on matters of identity?  Or is it my responsibility to accept that some people define those things differently and I may not fit squarely into their normatives?  Do I have the right to never see any boobie on television or in magazines for sale at the local bodega?  Or is it my responsibility to accept that others might be free-er with their bodies than I am and I can watch/read other things?   Or is the answer somewhere in the middle for all these questions? 

Why is this any different?  We ARE talking about a right here; the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 10:15:23 AM

Is it really so hard to put a mask on? Just do it. Just fucking do it for a while if it'll help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 01, 2020, 10:15:46 AM

Obviously I'm not drinking more, but I am eating like a pig. Since AA has gone online through Zoom, the recovery community has been through some insane changes. I have seen more than a few new guys and stragglers go out and relapse, but I think overall we've bonded even tighter. We can now book speakers from all over the world, had a guy speaking from Russia last week. I've attended Zoom meetings in the past few weeks in Australia, England, Ireland, South Africa, NY, Boston, Chicago, and Hawaii. What amazes me is that no matter  the cultural differences, the recovery is the same, the message is the same. it's really re-assuring, and quite beautiful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 10:20:57 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 10:15:23 AM

Is it really so hard to put a mask on? Just do it. Just fucking do it for a while if it'll help.

My friend (Marc, it's the guy that came to Maiden with us in Brooklyn and Hartford) sent me a text the other day:  he ordered two "Eddie" masks and they arrive early next week (somehow Derek Riggs is involved, but they weren't bought from his website, so I don't know).   I'll be wearing that bitch around well after the restrictions are lifted.  :)  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 10:23:01 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 01, 2020, 10:15:46 AM

Obviously I'm not drinking more, but I am eating like a pig. Since AA has gone online through Zoom, the recovery community has been through some insane changes. I have seen more than a few new guys and stragglers go out and relapse, but I think overall we've bonded even tighter. We can now book speakers from all over the world, had a guy speaking from Russia last week. I've attended Zoom meetings in the past few weeks in Australia, England, Ireland, South Africa, NY, Boston, Chicago, and Hawaii. What amazes me is that no matter  the cultural differences, the recovery is the same, the message is the same. it's really re-assuring, and quite beautiful.

I'm happy to hear that; it would strike me that these are delicate times, because the stressors we're talking about have a tendency to sneak up on you, and coupled with the isolation, that's kind of a recipe for disaster.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 01, 2020, 10:23:11 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 01, 2020, 10:15:46 AM

What amazes me is that no matter  the cultural differences, the recovery is the same, the message is the same. it's really re-assuring, and quite beautiful.

This brought a smile to my face.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 01, 2020, 10:41:15 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 10:00:27 AM

Another interesting stat I saw was that California's death rate for COVID... who has/had one of the most strict COVID responses as far as restrictions....is 5 deaths per 100,000 people. Alternatively, Texas....who was/is pretty lenient on it's restrictions is 6 per 100,000

Out of respect to Marc and others here who have had relatives/friends that have passed away from either Covid or Complications to existing illnesses because of Covid....I'm not trying to infer that it's not a deadly virus.

I think that as more information and stats are collected it seems like a large portion of our population has come in contact with Covid and probably been asymptomatic. I personally think this thing was around in the US last fall. I know in our area the number of bad Flu cases were up and I personally know six people who had a 'bad case' of the 'Flu'. My wife's school was hit by it and a bunch of her students were out for a while.

My point is that yes, Covid can be deadly....like any other virus....but I'm starting to warm to the stance of these extreme measures we took that has collapsed our economy might not have been necessary. Gloves, Masks and good hygiene might well have been just as effective as locking everyone indoors for two months.

I'd be interested to know if geographic location played a roll in that at all. Viruses have a tougher time in warmer climates, and I wonder if Texas' proximity to the equator had anything to do with the virus' ability to spread compared to the cooler regions of Cali.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 01, 2020, 10:44:18 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 10:00:27 AM

Out of respect to Marc and others here who have had relatives/friends that have passed away from either Covid or Complications to existing illnesses because of Covid....I'm not trying to infer that it's not a deadly virus.

No need to change your tone or feelings because I'm here.  I feel very much aligned with you in a lot of what you've been posting here.  But I do appreciate the effort to show respect.

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 10:20:57 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 10:15:23 AM

Is it really so hard to put a mask on? Just do it. Just fucking do it for a while if it'll help.

My friend (Marc, it's the guy that came to Maiden with us in Brooklyn and Hartford) sent me a text the other day:  he ordered two "Eddie" masks and they arrive early next week (somehow Derek Riggs is involved, but they weren't bought from his website, so I don't know).   I'll be wearing that bitch around well after the restrictions are lifted.  :)  :metal

I've got some basic shit face masks that are disposable.  I've been debating about getting one nicer one that I can just wash and reuse.  Something like that might be cool.   :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 01, 2020, 10:47:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 10:23:01 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 01, 2020, 10:15:46 AM

Obviously I'm not drinking more, but I am eating like a pig. Since AA has gone online through Zoom, the recovery community has been through some insane changes. I have seen more than a few new guys and stragglers go out and relapse, but I think overall we've bonded even tighter. We can now book speakers from all over the world, had a guy speaking from Russia last week. I've attended Zoom meetings in the past few weeks in Australia, England, Ireland, South Africa, NY, Boston, Chicago, and Hawaii. What amazes me is that no matter  the cultural differences, the recovery is the same, the message is the same. it's really re-assuring, and quite beautiful.

I'm happy to hear that; it would strike me that these are delicate times, because the stressors we're talking about have a tendency to sneak up on you, and coupled with the isolation, that's kind of a recipe for disaster.

It is, and is why we in the community need to be even more vigilant about reaching out to our fellows and making sure they aren't spending too much time in their heads, it's a dangerous place to be.

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 01, 2020, 10:23:11 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 01, 2020, 10:15:46 AM

What amazes me is that no matter  the cultural differences, the recovery is the same, the message is the same. it's really re-assuring, and quite beautiful.

This brought a smile to my face.

I'm pretty proud to be a part of it tbh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

Regarding Texas and California, I think one very important variable is how condensed the populations are. The largest city in Texas, by population is 2-5 times less populated than Los Angeles (depending on if you're counting city vs county) and bigger than Los Angeles (city at least) by land mass. So in California you have a LOT more people much more closely together than you do in any part of Texas, which highly influences the numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 11:13:38 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 01, 2020, 10:41:15 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 10:00:27 AM

Another interesting stat I saw was that California's death rate for COVID... who has/had one of the most strict COVID responses as far as restrictions....is 5 deaths per 100,000 people. Alternatively, Texas....who was/is pretty lenient on it's restrictions is 6 per 100,000

Out of respect to Marc and others here who have had relatives/friends that have passed away from either Covid or Complications to existing illnesses because of Covid....I'm not trying to infer that it's not a deadly virus.

I think that as more information and stats are collected it seems like a large portion of our population has come in contact with Covid and probably been asymptomatic. I personally think this thing was around in the US last fall. I know in our area the number of bad Flu cases were up and I personally know six people who had a 'bad case' of the 'Flu'. My wife's school was hit by it and a bunch of her students were out for a while.

My point is that yes, Covid can be deadly....like any other virus....but I'm starting to warm to the stance of these extreme measures we took that has collapsed our economy might not have been necessary. Gloves, Masks and good hygiene might well have been just as effective as locking everyone indoors for two months.

I'd be interested to know if geographic location played a roll in that at all. Viruses have a tougher time in warmer climates, and I wonder if Texas' proximity to the equator had anything to do with the virus' ability to spread compared to the cooler regions of Cali.

I wouldn't be surprised if it did. That's the hard part about this virus.....there's just no 'apples to apples' comparison. These variables are different across the board.

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 10:47:49 AM

Regarding Texas and California, I think one very important variable is how condensed the populations are. The largest city in Texas, by population is 2-5 times less populated than Los Angeles (depending on if you're counting city vs county) and bigger than Los Angeles (city at least) by land mass. So in California you have a LOT more people much more closely together than you do in any part of Texas, which highly influences the numbers.

True. But then you get into stuff like even though California has more people they were more 'controlled' than Texas was.....where they were adhering to strict guidelines folks in Texas were out and about more which would/should have contributed to more cases than it did?

I'm not suggesting there's right or wrong way.....I'm just saying that at this point the figures we're seeing are that a lot more people were exposed to this than what's being reported and were either asymptomatic or just weathered the virus naturally....which dilutes the potency of the virus when just looking at how deadly it is in general. Sure, when it mixes with a pre-existing illness or finds a host that is already weakened or has a natural disposition of inability to battle sickness...it can be devastating. But at what point does protecting that percentage of society who is susceptible and at risk stop dictating how the rest of the majority of society lives? Especially when we start factoring in the 'true' number of those exposed vs the number of Covid deaths? Covid then just takes it's place along side the Flu and Colds in general that on their own 'can' be deadly....when mixed with existing illnesses 'can' complicate and cause deaths....but on it's own....has a low death rate and doesn't shut down our country.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 01, 2020, 11:41:36 AM

this is encouraging news: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-south-korea-patients-infected-twice-test-a9491986.html?fbclid=IwAR2Fc5EPc2shHZGPFRlnu6Zr9QGrDWdXCR5Ra7Hm03y4da-0Cp0SP55ilPk

Quote

Health authorities in South Korea have reported that patients who appeared to have been reinfected with coronavirus had in fact returned false positives.

Quote

Even after a patient has recovered from coronavirus, fragments of the virus can still be detected in the human body for up to two months, Dr Oh added.

Probably still too early to generalize but It's good sign,  South Korea has been leading the charge in effective testing so I think they know what they're talking about

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 01, 2020, 11:43:04 AM

‘Dr. Oh’ :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 01, 2020, 11:44:20 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

I agree Hef.....but we are now seeing Dr's/scientists disagreeing on this as well. Not just 'flakes' but legit people having different opinions based on the same info?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:47:01 AM

There will always be some differing opinions among experts.  But in something like this, I wouldn't be looking for statistical outliers, but what is the consensus opinion?

I find it notable that none of these "Reopen" protests are being led by doctors or nurses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 01, 2020, 12:01:05 PM

OK, but that entirely misses the point, since doctors and nurses are generally too busy to  be leading protests.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:03:40 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 01, 2020, 12:01:05 PM

OK, but that entirely misses the point, since doctors and nurses are generally too busy to  be leading protests.

After a quick google search, at least in Denver, nurses and so forth were actually leading counter protests against them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 01, 2020, 12:06:36 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:03:40 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 01, 2020, 12:01:05 PM

OK, but that entirely misses the point, since doctors and nurses are generally too busy to  be leading protests.

After a quick google search, at least in Denver, nurses and so forth were actually leading counter protests against them.

We've been getting some of that here as well.   It's not just in one place. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

I have no problem in reporting facts and urging care.   If that's not clear, that's on me.  I want ALL the information, right now, and I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so I would want everyone to take as much care as they can.  That's not what I'm seeing.   I think I said it already, but while I see the "Red China, 'murica, Trump" things you write about, I see just as many saying the ideological opposite, that is, "we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Trump, and if you take any position other than doubling down on the most stringent of controls, you're clearly a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die".  Or something like that. :)  I'm being a little facetious.  But you need not be a Trump-o-phile or a greedy bastard to want to have a little more realism, or give-and-take to the debate. 

Frankly, I'd be happy with just having a meaningful conversation about it without the stereotypes and ad hominem components (not directed at you, or anyone here; I'm talking more about the general nature of political discourse in this country; as bad as Trump is - and he's BAD at it - there are plenty of people apparently willing to fight fire with fire and respond in kind, and this situation has only amplified it to me.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 12:12:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

I have no problem in reporting facts and urging care.   If that's not clear, that's on me.  I want ALL the information, right now, and I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so I would want everyone to take as much care as they can.  That's not what I'm seeing.   I think I said it already, but while I see the "Red China, 'murica, Trump" things you write about, I see just as many saying the ideological opposite, that is, "we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Trump, and if you take any position other than doubling down on the most stringent of controls, you're clearly a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die".  Or something like that. :)  I'm being a little facetious.  But you need not be a Trump-o-phile or a greedy bastard to want to have a little more realism, or give-and-take to the debate. 

Well, yeah, of course. But there is so much god damn obvious overlap between "I'M NOT WEARING A MASK AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" and "TRUMP 2020!" that I have seen the last few weeks that it's becoming hard to dissociate the two from each other. I don't see how it's unrealistic to want people to wear a mask for the next month or so in public. Your mobility ain't affected. Unless you have a respiratory condition, it shouldn't be that much of a burden to wear. And it's very easy and cheap.  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:14:04 PM

Quote from: a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die on May 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

I have no problem in reporting facts and urging care.   If that's not clear, that's on me.  I want ALL the information, right now, and I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so I would want everyone to take as much care as they can.  That's not what I'm seeing.   I think I said it already, but while I see the "Red China, 'murica, Trump" things you write about, I see just as many saying the ideological opposite, that is, "we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Trump, and if you take any position other than doubling down on the most stringent of controls, you're clearly a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die".  Or something like that. :)  I'm being a little facetious.  But you need not be a Trump-o-phile or a greedy bastard to want to have a little more realism, or give-and-take to the debate. 

Well yea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 01, 2020, 12:14:37 PM

Unfortunately it's not just about public health. Economic catastrophe for untold millions globally is an equal factor. While I believe strongly in our ability to bounce back, I think it might take years. As mentioned before, that's why this thing has been so difficult to navagate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

What do you do when your mechanic comes to you and says "You cannot drive the car without a transmission; fixing that transmission will cost you $6000."

Or, your attorney says "We can sue the pants off your neighbor and force them to cut that tree DOWN!  My hourly rate is $750 an hour, and my retainer is $15,000."   

None of these decisions exist in a vacuum, and with immense respect to you, it's the "then I'm a fucking idiot" judgment that is at heart of my push back.  No, you're not a "fucking idiot", you just have a different risk profile, or a different prioritization of issues.  If that car is a '74 Pontiac on it's last leg, you're not a "fucking idiot" if you say you're going to drive it until it drops and get a new car.   Contrast, if it's a '78 Datsun 280Z, maybe it makes sense to put that $6000 transmission in there and preserver your cherry vintage ride.    Maybe the tree is out in the back yard, and you're just sticking it to the dick that called the cops on your 4th of July party last year, or maybe the tree is right over the kitchen and if it falls it destroys your $250,000 house.

We are allowed to do this math.  We are allowed to have differing variables.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:19:21 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 01, 2020, 12:14:37 PM

Unfortunately it's not just about public health. Economic catastrophe for untold millions globally is an equal factor. While I believe strongly in our ability to bounce back, I think it might take years. As mentioned before, that's why this thing has been so difficult to navagate.

Completely agree. I also think we underestimate our leaders' interest in the economy. It's not like our presidents or prime ministers or kings or Hef's or what have you want the economy to collapse. Nothing gets them out of their position faster than things going badly for the economy. So everyone in charge is likely MORE concerned about those things than they are public health. Hell, look how difficult it was for Trump to not open everything back up as quickly as possible, it was all he wanted to do. So yes, you have people looking out for public health, but all of our leaders are VERY invested in the economy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:21:50 PM

Quote from: Stabler on May 01, 2020, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

What do you do when your mechanic comes to you and says "You cannot drive the car without a transmission; fixing that transmission will cost you $6000."

Or, your attorney says "We can sue the pants off your neighbor and force them to cut that tree DOWN!  My hourly rate is $750 an hour, and my retainer is $15,000."   

None of these decisions exist in a vacuum, and with immense respect to you, it's the "then I'm a fucking idiot" judgment that is at heart of my push back.  No, you're not a "fucking idiot", you just have a different risk profile, or a different prioritization of issues.  If that car is a '74 Pontiac on it's last leg, you're not a "fucking idiot" if you say you're going to drive it until it drops and get a new car.   Contrast, if it's a '78 Datsun 280Z, maybe it makes sense to put that $6000 transmission in there and preserver your cherry vintage ride.    Maybe the tree is out in the back yard, and you're just sticking it to the dick that called the cops on your 4th of July party last year, or maybe the tree is right over the kitchen and if it falls it destroys your $250,000 house.

We are allowed to do this math.  We are allowed to have differing variables.

Very good points! Though they only fit under the assumption that people are only risking their own health. If my mechanic said that driving my car could kill me and potentially thousands of other people, that's very different than "Well..it's my car and I can decide what it's worth"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:24:17 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 12:12:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

I have no problem in reporting facts and urging care.   If that's not clear, that's on me.  I want ALL the information, right now, and I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so I would want everyone to take as much care as they can.  That's not what I'm seeing.   I think I said it already, but while I see the "Red China, 'murica, Trump" things you write about, I see just as many saying the ideological opposite, that is, "we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Trump, and if you take any position other than doubling down on the most stringent of controls, you're clearly a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die".  Or something like that. :)  I'm being a little facetious.  But you need not be a Trump-o-phile or a greedy bastard to want to have a little more realism, or give-and-take to the debate. 

Well, yeah, of course. But there is so much god damn obvious overlap between "I'M NOT WEARING A MASK AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" and "TRUMP 2020!" that I have seen the last few weeks that it's becoming hard to dissociate the two from each other. I don't see how it's unrealistic to want people to wear a mask for the next month or so in public. Your mobility ain't affected. Unless you have a respiratory condition, it shouldn't be that much of a burden to wear. And it's very easy and cheap.  :facepalm:

Well, we have to dissassociate.  If it really IS a "public health" issue, then we have to.  Do you think it's doing anyone any good to make that connection?  Do you think that person is going to have an epiphany "Huh, I didn't even realize I liked Trump! I better put my mask on!"  Hahaha, I'm kidding.   But seriously, there's no meaningful connection to be made there, and if you think there is, twist it around:   "Fucking Biden voters; destroy the economy and who cares.  We'll all starve to death with our goddamn masks on, because we can't afford food because we can't work!"  Or "Fucking Biden voters; when the economy tanks and the Chinese take us over, we can use our masks to protect against the pollution in New York Beijing!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 12:25:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:24:17 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 12:12:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

I have no problem in reporting facts and urging care.   If that's not clear, that's on me.  I want ALL the information, right now, and I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so I would want everyone to take as much care as they can.  That's not what I'm seeing.   I think I said it already, but while I see the "Red China, 'murica, Trump" things you write about, I see just as many saying the ideological opposite, that is, "we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Trump, and if you take any position other than doubling down on the most stringent of controls, you're clearly a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die".  Or something like that. :)  I'm being a little facetious.  But you need not be a Trump-o-phile or a greedy bastard to want to have a little more realism, or give-and-take to the debate. 

Well, yeah, of course. But there is so much god damn obvious overlap between "I'M NOT WEARING A MASK AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" and "TRUMP 2020!" that I have seen the last few weeks that it's becoming hard to dissociate the two from each other. I don't see how it's unrealistic to want people to wear a mask for the next month or so in public. Your mobility ain't affected. Unless you have a respiratory condition, it shouldn't be that much of a burden to wear. And it's very easy and cheap.  :facepalm:

Well, we have to dissassociate.  If it really IS a "public health" issue, then we have to.  Do you think it's doing anyone any good to make that connection?  Do you think that person is going to have an epiphany "Huh, I didn't even realize I liked Trump! I better put my mask on!"  Hahaha, I'm kidding.   But seriously, there's no meaningful connection to be made there, and if you think there is, twist it around:   "Fucking Biden voters; destroy the economy and who cares.  We'll all starve to death with our goddamn masks on, because we can't afford food because we can't work!"  Or "Fucking Biden voters; when the economy tanks and the Chinese take us over, we can use our masks to protect against the pollution in New York Beijing!"

Bro, I am just venting, can I ask you a favor to stop constantly bringing up the other side when you KNOW after years of discussion with you that I'm fully 100% aware of the other side? Can I just have my moment of frustration? Please? :)

Seriously, I fully understand and agree with what you're saying. I'm just annoyed and anxious.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:29:51 PM

Quote from: Studler on May 01, 2020, 12:24:17 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 12:12:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

I have no problem in reporting facts and urging care.   If that's not clear, that's on me.  I want ALL the information, right now, and I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so I would want everyone to take as much care as they can.  That's not what I'm seeing.   I think I said it already, but while I see the "Red China, 'murica, Trump" things you write about, I see just as many saying the ideological opposite, that is, "we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Trump, and if you take any position other than doubling down on the most stringent of controls, you're clearly a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die".  Or something like that. :)  I'm being a little facetious.  But you need not be a Trump-o-phile or a greedy bastard to want to have a little more realism, or give-and-take to the debate. 

Well, yeah, of course. But there is so much god damn obvious overlap between "I'M NOT WEARING A MASK AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" and "TRUMP 2020!" that I have seen the last few weeks that it's becoming hard to dissociate the two from each other. I don't see how it's unrealistic to want people to wear a mask for the next month or so in public. Your mobility ain't affected. Unless you have a respiratory condition, it shouldn't be that much of a burden to wear. And it's very easy and cheap.  :facepalm:

  Or "Fucking Biden voters; when the economy tanks and the Chinese take us over, we can use our masks to protect against the pollution in New York Beijing!"

I actually like that one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:30:46 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:21:50 PM

Quote from: Stabler on May 01, 2020, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

What do you do when your mechanic comes to you and says "You cannot drive the car without a transmission; fixing that transmission will cost you $6000."

Or, your attorney says "We can sue the pants off your neighbor and force them to cut that tree DOWN!  My hourly rate is $750 an hour, and my retainer is $15,000."   

None of these decisions exist in a vacuum, and with immense respect to you, it's the "then I'm a fucking idiot" judgment that is at heart of my push back.  No, you're not a "fucking idiot", you just have a different risk profile, or a different prioritization of issues.  If that car is a '74 Pontiac on it's last leg, you're not a "fucking idiot" if you say you're going to drive it until it drops and get a new car.   Contrast, if it's a '78 Datsun 280Z, maybe it makes sense to put that $6000 transmission in there and preserver your cherry vintage ride.    Maybe the tree is out in the back yard, and you're just sticking it to the dick that called the cops on your 4th of July party last year, or maybe the tree is right over the kitchen and if it falls it destroys your $250,000 house.

We are allowed to do this math.  We are allowed to have differing variables.

Very good points! Though they only fit under the assumption that people are only risking their own health. If my mechanic said that driving my car could kill me and potentially thousands of other people, that's very different than "Well..it's my car and I can decide what it's worth"

Of course you can.  Why is it different?   There are a 100 things that we each do every day that puts other people in danger.  The notion that all of a sudden "everyone else" is sacred is a red herring, or at the very least, just one more variable in the equation. 

And we're about five or six posts in, so let's not forget what I'm arguing here: I'm not arguing that we should or should not open the country.  I'm arguing that we should be able to have an adult, reasoned conversation about where the balance should be without politicizing it, without resorting to "you're a fucking idiot" (thanks Hef!  :)), or assuming one's motivations. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:32:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 12:25:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:24:17 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 12:12:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 01, 2020, 08:23:06 AM

To what Stadler just said, it's not about forcing people to be scared. In fact that's completely the wrong lens through which to look at this. Reporting facts and urging extreme care in public around strangers is not fear mongering. IT'S COMMON SENSE. These people act like putting a face mask on is turning 'murica into Red China. And a large portion of them will still vote for the guy who mused on injecting disinfectants into the body. What?

I have no problem in reporting facts and urging care.   If that's not clear, that's on me.  I want ALL the information, right now, and I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so I would want everyone to take as much care as they can.  That's not what I'm seeing.   I think I said it already, but while I see the "Red China, 'murica, Trump" things you write about, I see just as many saying the ideological opposite, that is, "we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Trump, and if you take any position other than doubling down on the most stringent of controls, you're clearly a stupid, money-grubbing, probably p****-grabbing a-hole that just wants to see old people die".  Or something like that. :)  I'm being a little facetious.  But you need not be a Trump-o-phile or a greedy bastard to want to have a little more realism, or give-and-take to the debate. 

Well, yeah, of course. But there is so much god damn obvious overlap between "I'M NOT WEARING A MASK AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" and "TRUMP 2020!" that I have seen the last few weeks that it's becoming hard to dissociate the two from each other. I don't see how it's unrealistic to want people to wear a mask for the next month or so in public. Your mobility ain't affected. Unless you have a respiratory condition, it shouldn't be that much of a burden to wear. And it's very easy and cheap.  :facepalm:

Well, we have to dissassociate.  If it really IS a "public health" issue, then we have to.  Do you think it's doing anyone any good to make that connection?  Do you think that person is going to have an epiphany "Huh, I didn't even realize I liked Trump! I better put my mask on!"  Hahaha, I'm kidding.   But seriously, there's no meaningful connection to be made there, and if you think there is, twist it around:   "Fucking Biden voters; destroy the economy and who cares.  We'll all starve to death with our goddamn masks on, because we can't afford food because we can't work!"  Or "Fucking Biden voters; when the economy tanks and the Chinese take us over, we can use our masks to protect against the pollution in New York Beijing!"

Bro, I am just venting, can I ask you a favor to stop constantly bringing up the other side when you KNOW after years of discussion with you that I'm fully 100% aware of the other side? Can I just have my moment of frustration? Please? :)

Seriously, I fully understand and agree with what you're saying. I'm just annoyed and anxious.

Fair enough; I'm here for you.  It's probably not clear from my posts, but I am too (anxious, anyway). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:36:08 PM

Quote from: Statsler on May 01, 2020, 12:30:46 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:21:50 PM

Quote from: Stabler on May 01, 2020, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

What do you do when your mechanic comes to you and says "You cannot drive the car without a transmission; fixing that transmission will cost you $6000."

Or, your attorney says "We can sue the pants off your neighbor and force them to cut that tree DOWN!  My hourly rate is $750 an hour, and my retainer is $15,000."   

None of these decisions exist in a vacuum, and with immense respect to you, it's the "then I'm a fucking idiot" judgment that is at heart of my push back.  No, you're not a "fucking idiot", you just have a different risk profile, or a different prioritization of issues.  If that car is a '74 Pontiac on it's last leg, you're not a "fucking idiot" if you say you're going to drive it until it drops and get a new car.   Contrast, if it's a '78 Datsun 280Z, maybe it makes sense to put that $6000 transmission in there and preserver your cherry vintage ride.    Maybe the tree is out in the back yard, and you're just sticking it to the dick that called the cops on your 4th of July party last year, or maybe the tree is right over the kitchen and if it falls it destroys your $250,000 house.

We are allowed to do this math.  We are allowed to have differing variables.

Very good points! Though they only fit under the assumption that people are only risking their own health. If my mechanic said that driving my car could kill me and potentially thousands of other people, that's very different than "Well..it's my car and I can decide what it's worth"

Of course you can.  Why is it different?   There are a 100 things that we each do every day that puts other people in danger.  The notion that all of a sudden "everyone else" is sacred is a red herring, or at the very least, just one more variable in the equation. 

And we're about five or six posts in, so let's not forget what I'm arguing here: I'm not arguing that we should or should not open the country.  I'm arguing that we should be able to have an adult, reasoned conversation about where the balance should be without politicizing it, without resorting to "you're a fucking idiot" (thanks Hef!  :)), or assuming one's motivations.

But that's not true. The way current cars are designed, and constantly evolving is to limit the impact on other people. We change societal things all the time when the risks become more known. We don't build with asbestos and say "well...it's my calculation to make" we make that illegal because of how it could hurt other people. Obviously there are lots of things we still do, but I don't see those as ways of legitimizing continuing to do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 01:08:10 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:36:08 PM

Quote from: Statsler on May 01, 2020, 12:30:46 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:21:50 PM

Quote from: Stabler on May 01, 2020, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

What do you do when your mechanic comes to you and says "You cannot drive the car without a transmission; fixing that transmission will cost you $6000."

Or, your attorney says "We can sue the pants off your neighbor and force them to cut that tree DOWN!  My hourly rate is $750 an hour, and my retainer is $15,000."   

None of these decisions exist in a vacuum, and with immense respect to you, it's the "then I'm a fucking idiot" judgment that is at heart of my push back.  No, you're not a "fucking idiot", you just have a different risk profile, or a different prioritization of issues.  If that car is a '74 Pontiac on it's last leg, you're not a "fucking idiot" if you say you're going to drive it until it drops and get a new car.   Contrast, if it's a '78 Datsun 280Z, maybe it makes sense to put that $6000 transmission in there and preserver your cherry vintage ride.    Maybe the tree is out in the back yard, and you're just sticking it to the dick that called the cops on your 4th of July party last year, or maybe the tree is right over the kitchen and if it falls it destroys your $250,000 house.

We are allowed to do this math.  We are allowed to have differing variables.

Very good points! Though they only fit under the assumption that people are only risking their own health. If my mechanic said that driving my car could kill me and potentially thousands of other people, that's very different than "Well..it's my car and I can decide what it's worth"

Of course you can.  Why is it different?   There are a 100 things that we each do every day that puts other people in danger.  The notion that all of a sudden "everyone else" is sacred is a red herring, or at the very least, just one more variable in the equation. 

And we're about five or six posts in, so let's not forget what I'm arguing here: I'm not arguing that we should or should not open the country.  I'm arguing that we should be able to have an adult, reasoned conversation about where the balance should be without politicizing it, without resorting to "you're a fucking idiot" (thanks Hef!  :)), or assuming one's motivations.

But that's not true. The way current cars are designed, and constantly evolving is to limit the impact on other people. We change societal things all the time when the risks become more known. We don't build with asbestos and say "well...it's my calculation to make" we make that illegal because of how it could hurt other people. Obviously there are lots of things we still do, but I don't see those as ways of legitimizing continuing to do it.

Well, re-read the last paragraph, again, because that's all I'm saying.   If we want to "re-design" so to speak, how people interact, that's fine.   If we want to pass laws - through the normal legislative process, with data collection phases, public comment periods, and the check and balance of the next election for our representatives in Congress (or our State Houses, as it were)  - that changes how we do "business" so to speak, that's fine.  That's democracy.   Let's talk it through, let's have a reasoned adult discussion about where the line is, and move forward.   That's not what's happening here.   

Oddly, what's happening here, and what some (not necessarily here) are advocating for, is the very thing that Trump was accused of for the better part of his administration prior to February 1st, and that's acting as if this is a monarchy.   If this truly is a public health crisis and we deem it necessary to circumvent the second branch of government (the Legislature) to get there, that's fine too, there's a process for that.  But I would like it if we (collective, not here in this forum) can keep the moral reprobation and sanctimony to a minimum.   To Katt's point (venting or otherwise) there are a lot of people that are attaching political significance to one's position on whether the restrictions are too hot, too cold, or just right, and I think that's causing us more harm than good in responding to the crisis. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 01, 2020, 01:09:08 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:19:21 PM

I also think we underestimate our leaders' interest in the economy. It's not like our presidents or prime ministers or kings or Hef's or what have you want the economy to collapse. Nothing gets them out of their position faster than things going badly for the economy. So everyone in charge is likely MORE concerned about those things than they are public health. Hell, look how difficult it was for Trump to not open everything back up as quickly as possible, it was all he wanted to do. So yes, you have people looking out for public health, but all of our leaders are VERY invested in the economy.

I am not a big conspiracy guy, but I am not totally convinced some of my state's leaders are concerned about our economy. Or to say it better, they are, but to their own ends. WA state democratic leaders have wanted an income tax for ages. It keeps getting voted down, and is prohibited in our state constitution anyway (it's complicated, bear with me). Others want to 'Tax Amazon' I capitalize it because it's their mantra. They are using this to push for taxation that will ultimately be used to fund their housing and Green New Deal priorities. (I can't readily find a reference for that, I will if asked). I guarantee there is a mindset that a crashing of the local economy will embolden them to push for enacting legislation to meet their own goals. So saying they are invested in the economy is correct, it isn't always altruistic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 01:13:06 PM

Quote from: Studly McGee on May 01, 2020, 01:08:10 PM

Well, re-read the last paragraph, again, because that's all I'm saying.   If we want to "re-design" so to speak, how people interact, that's fine.   If we want to pass laws - through the normal legislative process, with data collection phases, public comment periods, and the check and balance of the next election for our representatives in Congress (or our State Houses, as it were)  - that changes how we do "business" so to speak, that's fine.  That's democracy.   Let's talk it through, let's have a reasoned adult discussion about where the line is, and move forward.   That's not what's happening here.   

Oddly, what's happening here, and what some (not necessarily here) are advocating for, is the very thing that Trump was accused of for the better part of his administration prior to February 1st, and that's acting as if this is a monarchy.   If this truly is a public health crisis and we deem it necessary to circumvent the second branch of government (the Legislature) to get there, that's fine too, there's a process for that.  But I would like it if we (collective, not here in this forum) can keep the moral reprobation and sanctimony to a minimum.   To Katt's point (venting or otherwise) there are a lot of people that are attaching political significance to one's position on whether the restrictions are too hot, too cold, or just right, and I think that's causing us more harm than good in responding to the crisis.

Normally I'd agree, but in some cases, we can't wait to act. We can do both right now. Act quickly and also discuss how to move forward like adults. But we can't say "everyone do business as usual for the 2-3 years it will take to figure out a plan and go through all the proper channels moving forward" cause then you have hundreds of thousands dead. So this is one where we kind of have to both. Act quickly and also do a rationale thing moving forward. I see no reason that can't happen. Though I see plenty of signs it likely won't for some time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 01:13:23 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 01, 2020, 01:09:08 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:19:21 PM

I also think we underestimate our leaders' interest in the economy. It's not like our presidents or prime ministers or kings or Hef's or what have you want the economy to collapse. Nothing gets them out of their position faster than things going badly for the economy. So everyone in charge is likely MORE concerned about those things than they are public health. Hell, look how difficult it was for Trump to not open everything back up as quickly as possible, it was all he wanted to do. So yes, you have people looking out for public health, but all of our leaders are VERY invested in the economy.

I am not a big conspiracy guy, but I am not totally convinced some of my state's leaders are concerned about our economy. Or to say it better, they are, but to their own ends. WA state democratic leaders have wanted an income tax for ages. It keeps getting voted down, and is prohibited in our state constitution anyway (it's complicated, bear with me). Others want to 'Tax Amazon' I capitalize it because it's their mantra. They are using this to push for taxation that will ultimately be used to fund their housing and Green New Deal priorities. (I can't readily find a reference for that, I will if asked). I guarantee there is a mindset that a crashing of the local economy will embolden them to push for enacting legislation to meet their own goals. So saying they are invested in the economy is correct, it isn't always altruistic.

I'm with you on that.  I've written extensively as to why I think Obama paid only a passing concern to the economy.  In my state, I can point to tens of decisions that have little if any regard for the economy.  I found several flaws of this nature in my reading of the Green New Deal. 

And inb4 the criticism, I am ONLY referring to things here that have an equally or more viable solution that DOES account for the economy in a more complete way.  Meaning, they could have had their cake and eaten it too, and apparently didn't bother.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 01:15:28 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 01:13:06 PM

Quote from: Studly McGee on May 01, 2020, 01:08:10 PM

Well, re-read the last paragraph, again, because that's all I'm saying.   If we want to "re-design" so to speak, how people interact, that's fine.   If we want to pass laws - through the normal legislative process, with data collection phases, public comment periods, and the check and balance of the next election for our representatives in Congress (or our State Houses, as it were)  - that changes how we do "business" so to speak, that's fine.  That's democracy.   Let's talk it through, let's have a reasoned adult discussion about where the line is, and move forward.   That's not what's happening here.   

Oddly, what's happening here, and what some (not necessarily here) are advocating for, is the very thing that Trump was accused of for the better part of his administration prior to February 1st, and that's acting as if this is a monarchy.  If this truly is a public health crisis and we deem it necessary to circumvent the second branch of government (the Legislature) to get there, that's fine too, there's a process for that.  But I would like it if we (collective, not here in this forum) can keep the moral reprobation and sanctimony to a minimum.   To Katt's point (venting or otherwise) there are a lot of people that are attaching political significance to one's position on whether the restrictions are too hot, too cold, or just right, and I think that's causing us more harm than good in responding to the crisis.

Normally I'd agree, but in some cases, we can't wait to act. We can do both right now. Act quickly and also discuss how to move forward like adults. But we can't say "everyone do business as usual for the 2-3 years it will take to figure out a plan and go through all the proper channels moving forward" cause then you have hundreds of thousands dead. So this is one where we kind of have to both. Act quickly and also do a rationale thing moving forward. I see no reason that can't happen. Though I see plenty of signs it likely won't for some time.

I agree.  But... bold, italics, underlined.   We can do all that without the partisanship, judgment and bullying (on both sides). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 01, 2020, 01:18:40 PM

Quote from: Study buddy on May 01, 2020, 01:15:28 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 01:13:06 PM

Quote from: Studly McGee on May 01, 2020, 01:08:10 PM

Well, re-read the last paragraph, again, because that's all I'm saying.   If we want to "re-design" so to speak, how people interact, that's fine.   If we want to pass laws - through the normal legislative process, with data collection phases, public comment periods, and the check and balance of the next election for our representatives in Congress (or our State Houses, as it were)  - that changes how we do "business" so to speak, that's fine.  That's democracy.   Let's talk it through, let's have a reasoned adult discussion about where the line is, and move forward.   That's not what's happening here.   

Oddly, what's happening here, and what some (not necessarily here) are advocating for, is the very thing that Trump was accused of for the better part of his administration prior to February 1st, and that's acting as if this is a monarchy.  If this truly is a public health crisis and we deem it necessary to circumvent the second branch of government (the Legislature) to get there, that's fine too, there's a process for that.  But I would like it if we (collective, not here in this forum) can keep the moral reprobation and sanctimony to a minimum.   To Katt's point (venting or otherwise) there are a lot of people that are attaching political significance to one's position on whether the restrictions are too hot, too cold, or just right, and I think that's causing us more harm than good in responding to the crisis.

Normally I'd agree, but in some cases, we can't wait to act. We can do both right now. Act quickly and also discuss how to move forward like adults. But we can't say "everyone do business as usual for the 2-3 years it will take to figure out a plan and go through all the proper channels moving forward" cause then you have hundreds of thousands dead. So this is one where we kind of have to both. Act quickly and also do a rationale thing moving forward. I see no reason that can't happen. Though I see plenty of signs it likely won't for some time.

I agree.  But... bold, italics, underlined.   We can do all that without the partisanship, judgment and bullying (on both sides).

Fool, we can't even do a lunch order without partisanship, judgment, and bullying. Give in to your anger! It gives you focus, makes you stronger!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 01, 2020, 01:27:00 PM

HAHAHA, you ARE right.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 01:31:37 PM

Hey, it worked for Anakin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 01:45:18 PM

I'm reading the comments raging against Governor Pritzker's live presser right now and these downstate rubes can't even spell or use grammar properly and they want to criticize him for mandating that people wear masks and stay home still.  "quit eating." "i have wear mask at home??? lol" "This America speak english quit talking" (in response to the lead health expert repeating statements in Spanish) etc. :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 01, 2020, 01:54:42 PM

Studly McGee?  You're gonna make his hat size grow an inch.   :smiley:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 01, 2020, 02:27:42 PM

So we have not received our stimulus check (or our IRS refund). Has anyone used this website to query status?

https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 01, 2020, 02:50:55 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 01, 2020, 02:27:42 PM

So we have not received our stimulus check (or our IRS refund). Has anyone used this website to query status?

https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment

Last year was the first time I did not receive my payment on time. I didn't call my accountant until June, when I finally got tired of waiting. He said it's rare, but sometimes people's refunds get stuck in 'processing' which apparently mine was. After I called him, he called the IRS and within a few days my refund was in my mailbox. I also called the IRS before that, but they told me to call my accountant first. So you might want to make a phone call if you haven't received it yet!

The site tells me it 'needs more information' if I want direct deposit but doesn't tell me whether or not a check has been mailed to my address; I got my 2019 refund over a month ago, so I wonder when it's coming. I earn way less than 75k, so it should be soon. But I might just enter my DD info tonight.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on May 02, 2020, 12:21:27 AM

With most of the world in some form of lockdown the numbers for infections and deaths seems relatively small.....But at some point we have to come out of lockdown (long before a vaccine hits) and when that happens if those numbers start to ramp up - simply put we are in trouble.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 02, 2020, 05:03:30 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 01, 2020, 09:32:12 AM

As of today:

Total cases vs. U.S. population
.0030487805

Total deaths vs. U.S. population
.0002134146

Total unemployed: over 30 million

It's time to ease back into normalcy while using common sense as our guide.

Quote from: soupytwist on May 02, 2020, 12:21:27 AM

With most of the world in some form of lockdown the numbers for infections and deaths seems relatively small.....But at some point we have to come out of lockdown (long before a vaccine hits) and when that happens if those numbers start to ramp up - simply put we are in trouble.

To these above two posts, I remember seeing a "meme" at the outset of this which was something along the lines of "If in a couple of months everyone thinks the all of the measures taken to combat the virus were an immense over-reaction, it simply means they worked."

How would this sound?  Contraction rates of 10%-20% (or more), and death rates of 1% or 2%, and likely even more than 30M unemployed?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 02, 2020, 05:03:52 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 01, 2020, 12:01:05 PM

OK, but that entirely misses the point, since doctors and nurses are generally too busy to  be leading protests.

Isn't that pretty much the point?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 02, 2020, 05:04:10 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 01, 2020, 12:21:50 PM

Quote from: Stabler on May 01, 2020, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 01, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

What do you do when your mechanic comes to you and says "You cannot drive the car without a transmission; fixing that transmission will cost you $6000."

Or, your attorney says "We can sue the pants off your neighbor and force them to cut that tree DOWN!  My hourly rate is $750 an hour, and my retainer is $15,000."   

None of these decisions exist in a vacuum, and with immense respect to you, it's the "then I'm a fucking idiot" judgment that is at heart of my push back.  No, you're not a "fucking idiot", you just have a different risk profile, or a different prioritization of issues.  If that car is a '74 Pontiac on it's last leg, you're not a "fucking idiot" if you say you're going to drive it until it drops and get a new car.   Contrast, if it's a '78 Datsun 280Z, maybe it makes sense to put that $6000 transmission in there and preserver your cherry vintage ride.    Maybe the tree is out in the back yard, and you're just sticking it to the dick that called the cops on your 4th of July party last year, or maybe the tree is right over the kitchen and if it falls it destroys your $250,000 house.

We are allowed to do this math.  We are allowed to have differing variables.

Very good points! Though they only fit under the assumption that people are only risking their own health. If my mechanic said that driving my car could kill me and potentially thousands of other people, that's very different than "Well..it's my car and I can decide what it's worth"

Yeah, like if you owned a Pinto, not a Datsun.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 02, 2020, 05:04:21 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 01, 2020, 12:14:37 PM

Unfortunately it's not just about public health. Economic catastrophe for untold millions globally is an equal factor. While I believe strongly in our ability to bounce back, I think it might take years. As mentioned before, that's why this thing has been so difficult to navagate.

I think you're absolutely right.  I'm more concerned about the alternative though...where the virus (which by the way, doesn't care about whether we're getting tired of social distancing measures, economic conditions, or how long it's inconveniencing entire societies) kills millions - perhaps 10s of millions - more, and there is still economic collapse that would take years to recover from.

I think some of this (and I'll say this isn't directed to anyone here... just the general unrest seen in society - which isn't limited to the US... we're seeing it up here as well), goes to the human culture of 'entitlement'.  'I don't like this, I don't want this, it needs to change.'  That kinda attitude.  'We're owed better' kinda thing.  Like I said, Mother Nature doesn't give a fuck about humanity.  Also, you think the generations a hundred years ago deserved or enjoyed WWI or the Spanish flu?  You think the 30s and 40s deserved or enjoyed the Depression and WWII?  We don't deserve or enjoy this, but it doesn't mean there's an ability to will ourselves out of it.

Mother Nature is like The Rock right now - "I doesn't matter what you think".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 03, 2020, 07:00:59 PM

All caught up on this thread and just wanted to say +1 to jingle's posts.  And hef and Kattelox as well (and I totally agree - just wear the mask!)

I read a few pages back that some are really starting to struggle and I just wanted to say hang in there.  My work has been sending out advice from mental health professionals - a lot of it is kind of common sense but sometimes hearing a reminder can't hurt.  One of the things they've pushed is exercise, and I just wanted to chime in and agree.  It's not a magic pill that makes everything better, but it is so beneficial on many different levels - great for the body in different ways, great for the mind too.  It can make you sharper/improve memory, and it can alleviate and reduce stress an anxiety.  I almost always feel pretty good when I work out, so anecdotally, I second this.  Recently, there were a couple work outs where I just felt *awesome* afterwards.  Course, I was listening to Katatonia during my workout so...;)  But on a more serious note - if it's not something you're doing now, why not give it a try?  The advice from work including not doing something that is going to stress you out more - for example if too many people are walking in your neighborhood and that increases your personal stress level, then just don't do it and do something else instead.  If you're a complete beginner, just marching or jogging in place in your living room/basement/back yard is a great start that you can build on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 08:12:31 PM

I don't want to sound unfeeling or callous.  But I am sick and tired of this quarantine stuff!  I'm sick and tired of peoples natural rights being taken so willy-nilly by power hungry governments.  Because of all this overbearing government rule stuff, the economy around the world is collapsing, we are heading strait into a worldwide famine, and I just can't take it anymore!

Of course I don't want more people to get sick and die, I don't want that at all.  But I'm a "teach people correctly and let them govern themselves" type of guy.  Businesses are perfectly capable of making changes so their employees and customers can stay safe.  Grocery stores did it, hardware stores did it.  All the ones deemed essential did it just fine!  People should decide if they want to go for a walk or not, or a family outing, or heaven forbid, go to a park without fear of being arrested!  What kind of society have we turned into?

This is all nonsense and I can't stand it anymore! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Sorry for the rant, and I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2020, 08:29:34 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 08:12:31 PM

I don't want to sound unfeeling or callous.  But I am sick and tired of this quarantine stuff!  I'm sick and tired of peoples natural rights being taken so willy-nilly by power hungry governments.  Because of all this overbearing government rule stuff, the economy around the world is collapsing, we are heading strait into a worldwide famine, and I just can't take it anymore!

I totally don't understand this statement. Natural rights? I don't get it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 08:35:11 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2020, 08:29:34 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 08:12:31 PM

I don't want to sound unfeeling or callous.  But I am sick and tired of this quarantine stuff!  I'm sick and tired of peoples natural rights being taken so willy-nilly by power hungry governments.  Because of all this overbearing government rule stuff, the economy around the world is collapsing, we are heading strait into a worldwide famine, and I just can't take it anymore!

I totally don't understand this statement. Natural rights? I don't get it.

In the Declaration of Independence of the US it states that rights are granted by God (or nature if you will) and not by governments.  In other words, people are naturally free and governments do not have the authority to curtail those rights in anyway because they don't give them in the first place.

I know it sounds like an archaic idea in this day and age, but it's one I strongly believe in.  I hope that helps.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2020, 08:41:09 PM

Well, that's a rebellious document, no? Are you advocating for a rebellion against the government? And then what? Who's in charge? God? A lot of people don't believe in God.
Nature? Are we going to start doing rain dances in the summer?


I mean, even the people that wrote that saw fit to form a government.


So people are fucked in we lock down and people are fucked if we don't lock down, but I just can't get on board with this notion of "taking away our rights." I believe our government is actually trying to protect us. It may or may not do more harm, but this notion of the government oppressing us is...yeah, you said it...archaic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 03, 2020, 08:44:23 PM

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 08:47:33 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2020, 08:41:09 PM

Well, that's a rebellious document, no? Are you advocating for a rebellion against the government? And then what? Who's in charge? God? A lot of people don't believe in God.
Nature? Are we going to start doing rain dances in the summer?

No, that's not exactly where I was going with any of that.  It simply means rights don't come from government, therefore they can't take them away.  Although they certainly do all the time, especially right now, that is the root of my rant and frustration.

I'm not suggesting any civil war or violent conflict of any kind.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2020, 08:52:10 PM

But what rights are you talking about? The right to spread a disease?

If they let this rip loose, people'd be bitching about the fact that no one did anything.

I mean, are you advocating the government should've turned a blind eye to this whole thing because..well..rights? there should be NO public policy to help derail this virus?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:01:46 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 03, 2020, 08:44:23 PM

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:07:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2020, 08:52:10 PM

But what rights are you talking about? The right to spread a disease?

If they let this rip loose, people'd be bitching about the fact that no one did anything.

I mean, are you advocating the government should've turned a blind eye to this whole thing because..well..rights? there should be NO public policy to help derail this virus?

TAC, did you read what I said?  I agree the government has the info, and I agree that info should be given to the people as swiftly as possible as well as the gravity of it.  But that's where the governments should have stopped, at least "The Land of the Free" anyway.  As I said, teach people what's correct, and let them govern themselves.  This is hardly me advocating a "blind eye".

Also, please understand, I'm not an anarchist.  I have no problem with government, as long as it leaves it's citizens alone and enacts laws to protect rights and not take them away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 03, 2020, 09:09:55 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:01:46 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 03, 2020, 08:44:23 PM

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

Your rights are not being taken away. Make your list - they're not being taken away. No offense intended, but I question whether or not you know what real oppression looks like if being told to stay home a little while and wear a mask is infringing on your rights, homie. :)

For the record... it IS still people's choice to wear a mask. I went into a gas station this evening to get some medicine and forgot to wear my mask. Nobody made a stink. I saw people in the grocery store today (only a couple) without masks - nobody stopped them. This is not tyranny, yo. Ain't nobody hanging out your front door with a rifle threatening you to get back inside :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2020, 09:13:08 PM

Lion, I didn't say anything about you turning a blind eye.

I just don't think the government should. They can't let this rip. They are doing what they think is right to protect us. And I don't think they're being "willy nilly" or "power hungry" by doing so.  I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that. This ain't North Korea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 03, 2020, 09:23:29 PM

Not to jump in the middle of this, but...

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:01:46 PM

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

yes, people are capable of it, but being capable of it and actually doing it are two different things.

I am generally a smaller government person, but I feel this instance is one where many need (and I am going to be blunt here) to be protected from their own stupidity, especially since their stupidity could have a widespread effect (like getting others sick and killing them).  I know that sounds harsh, but I think it's true. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:24:59 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 03, 2020, 09:09:55 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:01:46 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 03, 2020, 08:44:23 PM

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

Your rights are not being taken away. Make your list - they're not being taken away. No offense intended, but I question whether or not you know what real oppression looks like if being told to stay home a little while and wear a mask is infringing on your rights, homie. :)

For the record... it IS still people's choice to wear a mask. I went into a gas station this evening to get some medicine and forgot to wear my mask. Nobody made a stink. I saw people in the grocery store today (only a couple) without masks - nobody stopped them. This is not tyranny, yo. Ain't nobody hanging out your front door with a rifle threatening you to get back inside :)

OK,

People have been arrested going for a walk
people have been arrested going to a park
people have been arrested for going to get pizza
people have been arrested for holding church

Hefty fines have also been given out.

Right to travel, right to assemble and worship, right to commerce, right to not have hefty fines levied against you.  It may not be happening in your neck of the woods (which I'm very grateful for), but it is happening in the US.

And, don't worry, I'm not offended at all.  I'm just frustrated and feeling cooped up.  Which I'm sure many others feel also.  This is just how I react to it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 03, 2020, 09:26:18 PM

Okay. In those instances, was there a state of emergency/disaster declaration? Is it a violation of rights when people get arrested for violating curfews during hurricanes? Why is this any different?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:26:54 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2020, 09:13:08 PM

Lion, I didn't say anything about you turning a blind eye.

I just don't think the government should. They can't let this rip. They are doing what they think is right to protect us. And I don't think they're being "willy nilly" or "power hungry" by doing so.  I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that. This ain't North Korea.

I know you didn't, I must have worded it wrong.  And you're right, we aren't North Korea.  But tyranny is tyranny, even if it's light tyranny.  At least, that's how I see it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 03, 2020, 09:29:56 PM

It's not tyranny.  It's the government doing their job.  The government can't always "leave the citizens alone."  If they did, we wouldn't need government in the first place.  Sometimes we need to have restrictions on certain rights, and this is one of those times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 03, 2020, 09:30:23 PM

I get being frustrated as a result of being cooped up, but no one gave us the right to do whatever we want, whenever we want. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 03, 2020, 09:32:01 PM

NL, I just want to say I appreciate your take on this and that I understand how you're feeling, even if I disagree with the overall point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:33:38 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 03, 2020, 09:26:18 PM

Okay. In those instances, was there a state of emergency/disaster declaration? Is it a violation of rights when people get arrested for violating curfews during hurricanes? Why is this any different?

Well, I'm sure you are going to think I'm crazy, but yes it is.  "State of emergency" does not equal "take away rights and freedoms".  A state of emergency does not have the authority to suspend the constitution of the united states.

And no worries, I guess the cat is out of the bag with where I sand on things :).  Part of me wishes I had just kept my mouth shut, but oh well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:44:20 PM

Kattelox, TAC and Kev thanks for sparring a little, and I don't mind that neither of you agree with me, it's totally fine.  I just needed to vent a little and get it off my chest.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 03, 2020, 09:45:44 PM

All good, fam. No ill will or mean spirits here. It's nice to have a civil disagreement. Stay healthy and safe. :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 09:51:25 PM

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:55:08 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 09:51:25 PM

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 10:02:06 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:55:08 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 09:51:25 PM

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

What if, Grandma is fine?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 10:21:37 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 10:02:06 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:55:08 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 09:51:25 PM

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

What if, Grandma is fine?

Then hallelujah!  Praise the Lord!  And I can rest easy at home while I get better.

Freedom is one of the governing principles of my life, but with that freedom comes responsibility.  I just want to make that choice myself instead of government making it for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 03, 2020, 10:27:07 PM

"A person is smart.  People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

Unfortunately....this is why governance in general is necessary and vital.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 03, 2020, 10:28:30 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 10:21:37 PM

Then hallelujah!  Praise the Lord!  And I can rest easy at home while I get better.

Freedom is one of the governing principles of my life, but with that freedom comes responsibility.  I just want to make that choice myself instead of government making it for me.

NL, sounds like you need to watch Westworld.  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 10:34:29 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 10:21:37 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 10:02:06 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:55:08 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 09:51:25 PM

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

What if, Grandma is fine?

Then hallelujah!  Praise the Lord!  And I can rest easy at home while I get better.

Wouldn't that mean you possibly infected grandma, yet she's ok.

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 10:21:37 PM

Freedom is one of the governing principles of my life, but with that freedom comes responsibility.  I just want to make that choice myself instead of government making it for me.

See that's what it comes down to for me. We are all responsible people, its now that we have to be more responsible than usual.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on May 03, 2020, 11:14:44 PM

I sympathize with those who feel like this is being used as an excuse to encroach on civil liberties. There's a distinct distaste to the (real and perceived) draconian measures needed to contain a threat that is not easily quantified nor conveyed in 30-second soundbites. Especially as our understanding about the virus itself changes on a daily basis.

I myself am really struggling with how to proceed when it comes to whether I should return to work. I'm fortunate in that I don't have to return to work unless I feel safe doing so. Many other folks don't have that luxury and part of me feels like the risk to myself personally (and tangentially) is minimal compared to the value my participation in the labour market. I'm cautious by nature, so I've tentatively decided to take the pay-cut to stay home, but I recognize that everyone has a different calculus to their decision-making and that their individual routines and precautions may be such that they feel the government is forcing a "one-size-fits-all" solution that may or may not be applicable to the individual in question. I don't know, I'm just a random dude on the internet.  :justjen

Quote from: jammindude on April 30, 2020, 10:31:56 AM

But as far as work goes, I'm a construction electrician.  The job I'm being called back to is dirty (with no running water) and behind schedule. The foreman is kindof a jerk and cares far more about getting the job done than the safety of the crew.

I just got a call this evening (Local 332) from my contractor, and it was made clear that the national M.O.U. is still in effect that allows for you to be furloughed without repercussion. PDF Here (http://ibew332.org/docs/JOINT%20NEDRA%20%20Q%26A%203.30.2020.pdf). Stay safe brother.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 11:24:49 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 10:34:29 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 10:21:37 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 10:02:06 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:55:08 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2020, 09:51:25 PM

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

What if, Grandma is fine?

Then hallelujah!  Praise the Lord!  And I can rest easy at home while I get better.

Wouldn't that mean you possibly infected grandma, yet she's ok.

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 10:21:37 PM

Freedom is one of the governing principles of my life, but with that freedom comes responsibility.  I just want to make that choice myself instead of government making it for me.

See that's what it comes down to for me. We are all responsible people, its now that we have to be more responsible than usual.

I think I might be misreading your question Ben.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 04, 2020, 01:08:46 AM

To offer another perspective, in the italian constitution there is an article that states that the freedom of movement can be limited for health reasons.

The official constitution article reads: "Ogni cittadino può circolare e soggiornare liberamente in qualsiasi parte del territorio nazionale, salvo le limitazioni che la legge stabilisce in via generale per motivi di sanità o di sicurezza", which means "Every citizen can freely roam and reside in every part of the national territory, except for the limitations that the law estabilishes for sanitary or safety reasons".

A global pandemic is a fine line to balance - let everyone out and people die in millions, keep everyone out and the economic dies. It's hard to find a middle ground that satisfies the most. But nobody in our lifetime ever faced anything like that, and I don't think that once all of this will be over these "freedoms" suspended will be kept suspended forever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 04, 2020, 06:00:48 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:44:20 PM

Kattelox, TAC and Kev thanks for sparring a little, and I don't mind that neither of you agree with me, it's totally fine.  I just needed to vent a little and get it off my chest.  :tup

Hey Lion, I dropped off the convo last night because I went to bed. East Coast!!

It's not that I don't agree with you. I mean, I don't, but I'm not sparring for sparring's sake. I'm truly trying to understand the position. I was asking dumb questions because I'm trying to find the line where you feel our government is being a little tyrannical.

I mean, and I'm not arguing, but I'm asking....how does a state of emergency suspend the constitution? What part of the constitution is being suspended?



If it makes you feel better I am with you on the freedom to not return my shopping cart to the corral. ;D





EDIT: Also Lion, if the convo goes further into today, if I come off as short, it's because I'm posting on my phone as I'll be at work.
I'm of the general feeling that we should reopen responsibly, as I've been going to work every day through this and I'm honestly not worried.
I think I'm more concerned about the economy and the joblessness than I am with a "loss of rights" though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 04, 2020, 06:03:01 AM

Put your damn cart back, Tim!!  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 06:36:38 AM

I'm bugged by the arbitrariness of of what's allowed to be open and what's not. I can buy clothes from Target, but not from the local clothing shop. I can buy a book from Walmart, but can't check one out from the library. I can go golfing, but my kid can't run around in a park field. I can rent a cabin on a lake, but I can't pitch my tent in a campground. I can buy a six pack of beer from the liquor store, but not directly from the brewery.

Big box stores are allowed to stay open, while small businesses aren't. Tax revenue generating activities are allowed to be open, but cheap or free activities are closed. The companies with the resources to raise a stink are open. The little guy who offers the same types of products on a small scale who doesn't have millions of dollars to throw around is ignored. What's considered "essential" is skewed heavily toward the large national or at least regional corporations and away from the local guy.

My personal opinion is that all businesses should be allowed to be open if they choose to be while having to make adjustments for limiting the people in the store, extra sanitation, and other protections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 04, 2020, 07:07:34 AM

I agree lordixor about the mom and pop shops.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 04, 2020, 07:16:23 AM

Re: small business, it's funny how it's the opposite in the auto repair industry. Most of the big dealer bodyshops are suffering big time (not many people working at all in them, I hear it from our parts vendors all the time this past month and a half), but the small businesses like ours are thriving and it's actually kind of a blessing. I'm thinking big retail outlets are staying open simply because they bring in enough revenue (and offer enough necessary products) to justify staying open albeit with restrictions. At golf courses there are plenty of restrictions in place (at least here) like 1 person to a golf cart if they even allow golf carts, you can't touch the flagpoles, etc. Kids playing outside are very likely to come in contact with one another, most little kids touch each other at some point when they play. Not saying they aren't valid complaints, but I see logic in some of them, too. (Although I saw plenty of kids playing outside this weekend on my walk...)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 07:31:52 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 04, 2020, 07:16:23 AM

Re: small business, it's funny how it's the opposite in the auto repair industry. Most of the big dealer bodyshops are suffering big time (not many people working at all in them, I hear it from our parts vendors all the time this past month and a half), but the small businesses like ours are thriving and it's actually kind of a blessing. I'm thinking big retail outlets are staying open simply because they bring in enough revenue (and offer enough necessary products) to justify staying open albeit with restrictions. At golf courses there are plenty of restrictions in place (at least here) like 1 person to a golf cart if they even allow golf carts, you can't touch the flagpoles, etc. Kids playing outside are very likely to come in contact with one another, most little kids touch each other at some point when they play. Not saying they aren't valid complaints, but I see logic in some of them, too. (Although I saw plenty of kids playing outside this weekend on my walk...)

I sort of see the logic in some of them too. But it's a bit suspicious that the things that are allowed are tax generating activities primarily done by the relatively wealthy. Just another way that this is disproportionately impacting low income people, who are already much more likely to be out of work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 04, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 07:31:52 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 04, 2020, 07:16:23 AM

Re: small business, it's funny how it's the opposite in the auto repair industry. Most of the big dealer bodyshops are suffering big time (not many people working at all in them, I hear it from our parts vendors all the time this past month and a half), but the small businesses like ours are thriving and it's actually kind of a blessing. I'm thinking big retail outlets are staying open simply because they bring in enough revenue (and offer enough necessary products) to justify staying open albeit with restrictions. At golf courses there are plenty of restrictions in place (at least here) like 1 person to a golf cart if they even allow golf carts, you can't touch the flagpoles, etc. Kids playing outside are very likely to come in contact with one another, most little kids touch each other at some point when they play. Not saying they aren't valid complaints, but I see logic in some of them, too. (Although I saw plenty of kids playing outside this weekend on my walk...)

I sort of see the logic in some of them too. But it's a bit suspicious that the things that are allowed are tax generating activities primarily done by the relatively wealthy. Just another way that this is disproportionately impacting low income people, who are already much more likely to be out of work.

I'm not at all saying it's right that it's happening, but, I'm reminded of a Guns N' Roses lyric... "Remember in this game we call life, that no one said it's fair." No business - NONE - is granted immunity from economic catastrophe (inb4 bank comments, I know, I know). Unfortunately, the ones at the bottom of the totem pole are always going to be the hardest hit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 08:24:50 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 06:36:38 AM

I'm bugged by the arbitrariness of of what's allowed to be open and what's not. I can buy clothes from Target, but not from the local clothing shop. I can buy a book from Walmart, but can't check one out from the library. I can go golfing, but my kid can't run around in a park field. I can rent a cabin on a lake, but I can't pitch my tent in a campground. I can buy a six pack of beer from the liquor store, but not directly from the brewery.

Big box stores are allowed to stay open, while small businesses aren't. Tax revenue generating activities are allowed to be open, but cheap or free activities are closed. The companies with the resources to raise a stink are open. The little guy who offers the same types of products on a small scale who doesn't have millions of dollars to throw around is ignored. What's considered "essential" is skewed heavily toward the large national or at least regional corporations and away from the local guy.

My personal opinion is that all businesses should be allowed to be open if they choose to be while having to make adjustments for limiting the people in the store, extra sanitation, and other protections.

I am also very much bothered by the inconsistencies of what is being allowed.  And this post fascinates me because some of what you post (and I am in no way doubting you) is the opposite for us.  A friend works at Target in women's clothing.  They had to close that section down because the dressing rooms are closed and women would just drop trou and try stuff on in the middle of the department!  So only what Target deems as "essential" now.  Which also is arbitrary.

Our libraries offer literally thousands of books online for pick up.  They have many children's and YA items available as a reader online.  Movies online.  Late fees are being waved.  It seems almost every week they have some new idea for families with online book discussions and even music lessons!

Golfing is allowed with some restrictions.  I see kids running around in parks all day long.  I do know that our local parks maintenance folks are still working.  State parks and camping areas are closed I assume because park staff is furloughed so there is no maintenance of restrooms, parking lots and I would assume should someone get lost on a trail, not many folks available to do search and rescue (not totally sure on that one).

I do feel for the small business owners.  I just found out that the local gourmet restaurant my sister got engaged in is closing for good after 23 years because of the closure and inability to secure the small business loan.  I have several close friends who are hurting who run small businesses.  I think the way those funds were passed out is egregious.  And I think nobody in our federal government truly cares about the small businesses at the local levels.  I mean, they don't donate all that much to re-election campaigns, right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 08:42:49 AM

That's funny about Target. I know here you can't try anything on and there are no returns at this point. But you can buy clothes there still.

Our library does have ebooks we've been able to get throughout all this and did just last week start allowing you to request books for curbside pick-up, but it's pretty limited. At least they're trying.

Parks and playgrounds are officially off-limits, but it doesn't look like it's really enforced at all. I've seen a handful of kids playing on playing on playgrounds (mine included a couple times to be honest) and running around in the fields, which are clearly still being maintained.

State parks are open for hiking, but buildings and camping are closed. But there are clearly still people working to maintain and manage crowds. The state parks nearest to Minneapolis have been very busy, much to the concern of the freak-out people despite it being very easy to keep your distance in parks that comprise thousands of acres of land.

I suspect we're already past the point of 10% of local restaurants going out of business. They're going to start dropping like flies here soon. I suspect some major chains will go out of business as well soon. It's really sad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 04, 2020, 08:51:11 AM

A sacramento landmark restaurant Biba is shuttering its doors Saturday after 30 years, and I'd take it this is just the beginning. My low end for restaurants closing is 30% at least.



Target is doing returns now, I returned a TV I had bought last week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 08:58:52 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 02, 2020, 05:04:21 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 01, 2020, 12:14:37 PM

Unfortunately it's not just about public health. Economic catastrophe for untold millions globally is an equal factor. While I believe strongly in our ability to bounce back, I think it might take years. As mentioned before, that's why this thing has been so difficult to navagate.

I think you're absolutely right.  I'm more concerned about the alternative though...where the virus (which by the way, doesn't care about whether we're getting tired of social distancing measures, economic conditions, or how long it's inconveniencing entire societies) kills millions - perhaps 10s of millions - more, and there is still economic collapse that would take years to recover from.

I think some of this (and I'll say this isn't directed to anyone here... just the general unrest seen in society - which isn't limited to the US... we're seeing it up here as well), goes to the human culture of 'entitlement'.  'I don't like this, I don't want this, it needs to change.'  That kinda attitude.  'We're owed better' kinda thing.  Like I said, Mother Nature doesn't give a fuck about humanity.  Also, you think the generations a hundred years ago deserved or enjoyed WWI or the Spanish flu?  You think the 30s and 40s deserved or enjoyed the Depression and WWII?  We don't deserve or enjoy this, but it doesn't mean there's an ability to will ourselves out of it.

Mother Nature is like The Rock right now - "I doesn't matter what you think".

So who is that directed towards?  I mean that nicely, but as I'm reading it, it strikes me that it applies both ways. 

Pro-restrictions:  "Stop your bitching; you're at least alive, you'll live without your precious economy and your PlayStation 5."
Pro-opening:  "Stop your bitching; we're all gonna die, we're all at the mercy of the Great Hand*, so we might as well let as many people as can manage prosper."

It seems like the "entitlement" works both ways, too:
Pro-restrictions: "You're endangering me; I'm entitled to live as risk free as I see fit."
Pro-opening:  "You're compromizing my economic future; I'm entitled to pursue my economic well-being."

I don't know; I just don't see a value judgement there.  I get that some people prioritize one of those higher than the other, and I certainly have my preferences, but there's no objectively "better" choice, in my opinion. 


* Sorry; I read back and this is confusing; I mean a metaphor for "God/nature/fate", not a reference to Adam Smith.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:06:32 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 03, 2020, 09:44:20 PM

Kattelox, TAC and Kev thanks for sparring a little, and I don't mind that neither of you agree with me, it's totally fine.  I just needed to vent a little and get it off my chest.  :tup

If it matters to you, I hear where you're coming from and lean in that direction as well.   No one mentioned what I'll loosely call the 'social contract', the tacit agreement we all have where we agree to SOME restrictions on our unabated personal liberties, in exchange for the benefits of a coordinated society with common goals and common objectives.   The problem is of course, two fold:

- when individuals within both society and government operate out side of that agreement;
- when we as a whole cannot agree on what those common goals and common objectives are (or should be).

I would offer that we're in a situation where both are happening to various degrees, depending on where you live and how you see the world. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:10:41 AM

Quote from: jammindude on May 03, 2020, 10:27:07 PM

"A person is smart.  People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

Unfortunately....this is why governance in general is necessary and vital.   

Uh, our government is of the people (DUMB), by the people (PANICKY) and for the people (DANGEROUS).   Governance in general is necessary and vital, but it has to take into account that it is as fallible as the people that give it it's power, of which it is comprised, and over whom it governs. 

I recognize governments role, but I am personally rather apprehensive at the weight that (some people) place on it.  For me, it should always be viewed as a necessary evil, and treated accordingly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:16:21 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 07:31:52 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 04, 2020, 07:16:23 AM

Re: small business, it's funny how it's the opposite in the auto repair industry. Most of the big dealer bodyshops are suffering big time (not many people working at all in them, I hear it from our parts vendors all the time this past month and a half), but the small businesses like ours are thriving and it's actually kind of a blessing. I'm thinking big retail outlets are staying open simply because they bring in enough revenue (and offer enough necessary products) to justify staying open albeit with restrictions. At golf courses there are plenty of restrictions in place (at least here) like 1 person to a golf cart if they even allow golf carts, you can't touch the flagpoles, etc. Kids playing outside are very likely to come in contact with one another, most little kids touch each other at some point when they play. Not saying they aren't valid complaints, but I see logic in some of them, too. (Although I saw plenty of kids playing outside this weekend on my walk...)

I sort of see the logic in some of them too. But it's a bit suspicious that the things that are allowed are tax generating activities primarily done by the relatively wealthy. Just another way that this is disproportionately impacting low income people, who are already much more likely to be out of work.

Can you explain that further?  I see that from a TOTALLY different perspective (surprise, surprise). If it's kept open and it's a TAX GENERATING ACTIVITY, isn't it just as likely a method to keep bringing in SOME revenue to the coffers that are being bled dry by safety net payments?   Isn't this, rather than just "another way that this is disproportionately impacting low income people", it's another way the wealthy are being asked to pick up a little more share in times of need?   It's not like the big-box stores are making their bank on this.   It's probably far more in Target's interest to close than to be open given the delta in their sales numbers.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:21:53 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 08:24:50 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 06:36:38 AM

I'm bugged by the arbitrariness of of what's allowed to be open and what's not. I can buy clothes from Target, but not from the local clothing shop. I can buy a book from Walmart, but can't check one out from the library. I can go golfing, but my kid can't run around in a park field. I can rent a cabin on a lake, but I can't pitch my tent in a campground. I can buy a six pack of beer from the liquor store, but not directly from the brewery.

Big box stores are allowed to stay open, while small businesses aren't. Tax revenue generating activities are allowed to be open, but cheap or free activities are closed. The companies with the resources to raise a stink are open. The little guy who offers the same types of products on a small scale who doesn't have millions of dollars to throw around is ignored. What's considered "essential" is skewed heavily toward the large national or at least regional corporations and away from the local guy.

My personal opinion is that all businesses should be allowed to be open if they choose to be while having to make adjustments for limiting the people in the store, extra sanitation, and other protections.

I am also very much bothered by the inconsistencies of what is being allowed.  And this post fascinates me because some of what you post (and I am in no way doubting you) is the opposite for us.  A friend works at Target in women's clothing.  They had to close that section down because the dressing rooms are closed and women would just drop trou and try stuff on in the middle of the department!  So only what Target deems as "essential" now.  Which also is arbitrary.

Our libraries offer literally thousands of books online for pick up.  They have many children's and YA items available as a reader online.  Movies online.  Late fees are being waved.  It seems almost every week they have some new idea for families with online book discussions and even music lessons!

Golfing is allowed with some restrictions.  I see kids running around in parks all day long.  I do know that our local parks maintenance folks are still working.  State parks and camping areas are closed I assume because park staff is furloughed so there is no maintenance of restrooms, parking lots and I would assume should someone get lost on a trail, not many folks available to do search and rescue (not totally sure on that one).

I do feel for the small business owners.  I just found out that the local gourmet restaurant my sister got engaged in is closing for good after 23 years because of the closure and inability to secure the small business loan.  I have several close friends who are hurting who run small businesses.  I think the way those funds were passed out is egregious.  And I think nobody in our federal government truly cares about the small businesses at the local levels.  I mean, they don't donate all that much to re-election campaigns, right?

Are we all in agreement that it's entirely the Federal government's responsibility?  Isn't it far more efficient to have governors, or in larger states, local leadership, engaged in that activity?  Can't they better judge where those dollars get the most bang for the buck? 

And - not knowing anything about that particular restaurant or why they were not able to get a loan that WAS offered - should EVERY business be guaranteed a survival?  I'm not implying anything with the questions, I'm throwing them out there for consideration. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 09:21:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:16:21 AM

Can you explain that further?  I see that from a TOTALLY different perspective (surprise, surprise). If it's kept open and it's a TAX GENERATING ACTIVITY, isn't it just as likely a method to keep bringing in SOME revenue to the coffers that are being bled dry by safety net payments?   Isn't this, rather than just "another way that this is disproportionately impacting low income people", it's another way the wealthy are being asked to pick up a little more share in times of need?   It's not like the big-box stores are making their bank on this.   It's probably far more in Target's interest to close than to be open given the delta in their sales numbers.   

You know, that is a good point. We do need to keep some tax revenue coming in. So I can see it from that direction. But it's not like the rich are being forced to go golfing or take their boat up to the lake rental cabin. They're being allowed to recreate in expensive ways that they've always been able to, while the poor are being kept away from the free/cheap recreation they've always enjoyed. So I can see it both ways.

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:21:53 AM

should EVERY business be guaranteed a survival?

Definitely not. Just like Covid is unfortunately largely culling the weak and old from our society, it is also going to indirectly cull the weak companies. Many that will go under were not long for this world anyway,  burdened by high debt and dwindling revenue. Its not inherently bad that all these companies are going under. I certainly feel for the owners and employees though. I do think we could emerge from this a few years down the road with stronger companies thriving and a new batch of innovative companies rising up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 09:58:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:21:53 AM

Are we all in agreement that it's entirely the Federal government's responsibility?  Isn't it far more efficient to have governors, or in larger states, local leadership, engaged in that activity?  Can't they better judge where those dollars get the most bang for the buck? 

And - not knowing anything about that particular restaurant or why they were not able to get a loan that WAS offered - should EVERY business be guaranteed a survival?  I'm not implying anything with the questions, I'm throwing them out there for consideration.

Whether we are "all in agreement" or not, the roll out was a shit show.  I stand by what I said and offer this for your reading pleasure.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/01/sba-ppp-public-companies/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 10:00:06 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 06:36:38 AM

What's considered "essential" is skewed heavily toward the large national or at least regional corporations and away from the local guy.

And skewed toward government workers/departments.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 10:35:27 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 10:00:06 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 06:36:38 AM

What's considered "essential" is skewed heavily toward the large national or at least regional corporations and away from the local guy.

And skewed toward government workers/departments.

Speaking of "essential" businesses. Can someone tell me how churches are considered "essential" thereby making them eligible for loans from the SBA?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 11:00:13 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 10:35:27 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 10:00:06 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 06:36:38 AM

What's considered "essential" is skewed heavily toward the large national or at least regional corporations and away from the local guy.

And skewed toward government workers/departments.

Speaking of "essential" businesses. Can someone tell me how churches are considered "essential" thereby making them eligible for loans from the SBA?

I thought those loans were for companies who aren't considered essential and thus need to shut down?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on May 04, 2020, 11:20:03 AM

Finland will be reopening all schools on 14 May, further corona management will be according to our epidemic law in this sector instead of the emergency law. However, gymnasiums, vocational schools and universities are still encouraged to arrange studying from home wherever possible. Theaters, libraries and museums are allowed to reopen on 1 June, and public gatherings limit will be increased to 50 persons at the same date. This will tie into an overall change of strategy in handling the epidemic as we will be able to trace contagion chains more effectively.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 11:22:10 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 09:58:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:21:53 AM

Are we all in agreement that it's entirely the Federal government's responsibility?  Isn't it far more efficient to have governors, or in larger states, local leadership, engaged in that activity?  Can't they better judge where those dollars get the most bang for the buck? 

And - not knowing anything about that particular restaurant or why they were not able to get a loan that WAS offered - should EVERY business be guaranteed a survival?  I'm not implying anything with the questions, I'm throwing them out there for consideration.

Whether we are "all in agreement" or not, the roll out was a shit show.  I stand by what I said and offer this for your reading pleasure.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/01/sba-ppp-public-companies/

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from that.  Just being honest with my observation, it seems like the kind of article meant to push buttons.

Some of it is disturbing, some of it is propaganda.  For example, (disturbing), if businesses misrepresented themselves on the applications, that is troublesome.    For example, (propaganda), small business or no, what does it matter what someone made in 2018?  The article doesn't break down what is a cash payment versus an equity arrangement (think in terms of stock options/grants), which matters, and in any event, that was for services rendered in 2018.

If companies lied, or misappropriated funds, then the state Attorneys General ought to bring charges.   Certainly, there were some that ran on "getting Trump", which mine, William Tong, certainly did, and so they can make hay if they want to.   If the audits aren't done, as Mnuchin claims, then Congress or the Judiciary should hold him accountable.  Adam Schiff, Dick Blumenthal, et al. can make hay of that as well, if they want to.   At least some public good could come of it.   None of this is meant to be snarky; it's meant literally; if there's a wrong to be righted, and a by-product of that is making the Administration look bad, so be it.  The point is that there are people incentivized to hold this Administration accountable and this is a great way to show their good intentions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 11:34:44 AM

@Katt and Lion:  On the issue of whether or not the U.S. government is abridging "fundamental rights" under the U.S. Constitution, the answer is unequivocally "yes."  That isn't really up for debate.  But on the issue of whether the Constitution itself recognizes limitations on those rights, and the government's ability (and obligation) to abridge those rights in limited circumstances, the answer is also unequivocally "yes."  It really just boils down to whether or not the state or federal governments have gone too far and exceeded their constitutional authority, or whether we feel that the government's infringements on our rights is "worth it" in this instance. 

Your mileage may (and will) vary on how you feel about answering those questions.  There's a lot that is difficult to answer.  A lot of it depends on whether this IS a legitimate public health emergency, and if so, the degree of that emergency.  I think it unequivocally is.  But whether the degree has been overestimated or underestimated, I personally don't feel qualified to comment on.  There just isn't enough info, or enough agreement on what the info means.  I subjectively feel that maybe there was an overreaction.  But I won't take a firm position one way or the other, and cannot and won't fault anyone for feeling differently.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 04, 2020, 11:41:18 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 11:34:44 AM

@Katt and Lion:  On the issue of whether or not the U.S. government is abridging "fundamental rights" under the U.S. Constitution, the answer is unequivocally "yes."  That isn't really up for debate.  But on the issue of whether the Constitution itself recognizes limitations on those rights, and the government's ability (and obligation) to abridge those rights in limited circumstances, the answer is also unequivocally "yes."  It really just boils down to whether or not the state or federal governments have gone too far and exceeded their constitutional authority, or whether we feel that the government's infringements on our rights is "worth it" in this instance. 

Your mileage may (and will) vary on how you feel about answering those questions.  There's a lot that is difficult to answer.  A lot of it depends on whether this IS a legitimate public health emergency, and if so, the degree of that emergency.  I think it unequivocally is.  But whether the degree has been overestimated or underestimated, I personally don't feel qualified to comment on.  There just isn't enough info, or enough agreement on what the info means.  I subjectively feel that maybe there was an overreaction.  But I won't take a firm position one way or the other, and cannot and won't fault anyone for feeling differently.

Well put about the info. I'm just doing what I need to do to keep my sanity, haha.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 12:07:00 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 11:22:10 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 09:58:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 09:21:53 AM

Are we all in agreement that it's entirely the Federal government's responsibility?  Isn't it far more efficient to have governors, or in larger states, local leadership, engaged in that activity?  Can't they better judge where those dollars get the most bang for the buck? 

And - not knowing anything about that particular restaurant or why they were not able to get a loan that WAS offered - should EVERY business be guaranteed a survival?  I'm not implying anything with the questions, I'm throwing them out there for consideration.

Whether we are "all in agreement" or not, the roll out was a shit show.  I stand by what I said and offer this for your reading pleasure.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/01/sba-ppp-public-companies/

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from that.  Just being honest with my observation, it seems like the kind of article meant to push buttons.

Some of it is disturbing, some of it is propaganda.  For example, (disturbing), if businesses misrepresented themselves on the applications, that is troublesome.    For example, (propaganda), small business or no, what does it matter what someone made in 2018?  The article doesn't break down what is a cash payment versus an equity arrangement (think in terms of stock options/grants), which matters, and in any event, that was for services rendered in 2018.

If companies lied, or misappropriated funds, then the state Attorneys General ought to bring charges.   Certainly, there were some that ran on "getting Trump", which mine, William Tong, certainly did, and so they can make hay if they want to.   If the audits aren't done, as Mnuchin claims, then Congress or the Judiciary should hold him accountable.  Adam Schiff, Dick Blumenthal, et al. can make hay of that as well, if they want to.   At least some public good could come of it.   None of this is meant to be snarky; it's meant literally; if there's a wrong to be righted, and a by-product of that is making the Administration look bad, so be it.  The point is that there are people incentivized to hold this Administration accountable and this is a great way to show their good intentions.

All of this means nothing for small businesses who were unable to access the funds and who now are closing shop because of that.  Bringing charges takes time.  Audits take time.  Being held accountable will take time.  Time is exactly what small businesses do not have.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 04, 2020, 12:08:45 PM

@bosk - fair points! But, not trying to be anal or anything, but I think there's a difference between "abridging fundamental rights" in the time of crisis and "tyranny" and the removal of rights which is what was being debated. EDIT: Unless, of course, we're talking about legally... in which case I guess abridge=removal, but I dunno, it just seems different. I'm not a lawyer...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 04, 2020, 12:26:06 PM

I think we all have rights, yes, but we don't have rights all the time. Sometimes we have also duties, we live in a society, our actions impact the others.

Then of course it's a fine balance to thread, it's hard to find the perfect middle point between the two extremes of keeping everyone locked (maximum defense against the contagion, but the economy dies) and letting everyone out (economy thrives, but people drop dead like flies) and that pleases the highest possible number of people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 12:48:28 PM

I think Bosk has it right, and I think Katt makes a good distinction about time, but at the end of the day, wherever the balance is, it has to be democratically - small "d" - arrived at.  It does no good for anyone to fight dirty (which is what I think ad hominem arguments usually are).  I think the important point is to respect - in the sense of tolerate, not admire - the other side of the fulcrum.  Just like being for the First Amendment doesn't make you a racist - even if racists might ultimately benefit from your argument - so some of the vitriol being levied in this debate.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 01:21:34 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 11:00:13 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 10:35:27 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 10:00:06 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 04, 2020, 06:36:38 AM

What's considered "essential" is skewed heavily toward the large national or at least regional corporations and away from the local guy.

And skewed toward government workers/departments.

Speaking of "essential" businesses. Can someone tell me how churches are considered "essential" thereby making them eligible for loans from the SBA?

I thought those loans were for companies who aren't considered essential and thus need to shut down?

I thought so too but then again when they first announced the loan program I not only didn't believe them, I refused to believe them. Hell, the LA Lakers received a 4 million dollar loan which they eventually returned. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 01:33:48 PM

Well, I missed a lot.  I'll just say Fiery Winds, Lordxizor, and Stadler, thanks  :tup.

Bosk, I agree with your first statement but disagree with the second.  I don't believe government has authority, constitutional or otherwise, to curtail rights; ever.  But I also realize that is a pipe dream in this day and age.

Concerning businesses, I'll restate what I originally said.  Businesses should manage their own affairs, let them stay open and figure out their own way of protecting their employees and customers.  Grocery stores have done it, hardware stores have done it, all businesses can do it.

TAC, I'm sorry, I didn't realize what you were getting at.  So I apologize for some of my tone.  To answer your question, if a national emergency is pronounced, it should give our government flexibility with it's funds to take certain actions like making tests or masks for example in our current circumstances.  I don't have a problem with that at all.  I also don't have a problem with them giving us the most updated info and safety precautions possible as quickly as possible.  But our rights are are rights, not our rights except when...  I think it is completely unnecessary for our local governments to create lockdowns and to arrest people for just living their lives.  That, in my view is completely unconstitutional and flat out wrong.  Anyway, that's where I stand.  I'm very hard lined when it comes to personal and economic liberty.

MirrorMask, I'm not sure what you mean by not having rights all the time.  If you mean that I don't have the liberty to set my neighbors lawn on fire just because I want to, then yes I agree.  But that's only because I have now tried to use my freedom to infringe on his right to property.

Like I said earlier, we should have laws that are designed to protect rights and liberty but never to take them away.  And that's what I see this coronavirus has caused.  We ended up with a bunch of mini dictators all around the country.

And just to restate, I'm not an anarchist.  I do believe government has a role to play, just a very very small one :).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 01:34:42 PM

My boss just called to say he was able to get an SBA loan. He said there were some challenges but he didn't go in to it, and it was hard to tell over the phone how struggling those challenges were.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 04, 2020, 01:42:46 PM

Lion,

Using your own analogy, if you are carrying a potentially deadly virus that you are not showing symptoms of, aren’t you endangering others by insisting on your freedoms? See your neighbors front lawn illustration...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 01:45:51 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 01:33:48 PM

Well, I missed a lot.  I'll just say Fiery Winds, Lordxizor, and Stadler, thanks  :tup.

Bosk, I agree with your first statement but disagree with the second.  I don't believe government has authority, constitutional or otherwise, to curtail rights; ever.  But I also realize that is a pipe dream in this day and age.

Concerning businesses, I'll restate what I originally said.  Businesses should manage their own affairs, let them stay open and figure out their own way of protecting their employees and customers.  Grocery stores have done it, hardware stores have done it, all businesses can do it.

TAC, I'm sorry, I didn't realize what you were getting at.  So I apologize for some of my tone.  To answer your question, if a national emergency is pronounced, it should give our government flexibility with it's funds to take certain actions like making tests or masks for example in our current circumstances.  I don't have a problem with that at all.  I also don't have a problem with them giving us the most updated info and safety precautions possible as quickly as possible.  But our rights are are rights, not our rights except when...  I think it is completely unnecessary for our local governments to create lockdowns and to arrest people for just living their lives.  That, in my view is completely unconstitutional and flat out wrong.  Anyway, that's where I stand.  I'm very hard lined when it comes to personal and economic liberty.

MirrorMask, I'm not sure what you mean by not having rights all the time.  If you mean that I don't have the liberty to set my neighbors lawn on fire just because I want to, then yes I agree.  But that's only because I have now tried to use my freedom to infringe on his right to property.

Like I said earlier, we should have laws that are designed to protect rights and liberty but never to take them away.  And that's what I see this coronavirus has caused.  We ended up with a bunch of mini dictators all around the country.

And just to restate, I'm not an anarchist.  I do believe government has a role to play, just a very very small one :).

As opposed to the current dictator in chief?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 02:05:58 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 04, 2020, 01:42:46 PM

Lion,

Using your own analogy, if you are carrying a potentially deadly virus that you are not showing symptoms of, aren’t you endangering others by insisting on your freedoms? See your neighbors front lawn illustration...

If I was sick and intentionally went around trying to infect people, and it could be proven in a court of law that that was the case, then yes.  Otherwise no.  Peoples rights don't get taken if they are sick.  Being sick is not a crime and should never be.

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 01:45:51 PM

As opposed to the current dictator in chief?

 :lol.  You know what, if Trump is removing regulations, then  :tup, if he's being a bully then  :tdwn.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 02:14:01 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 02:05:58 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 04, 2020, 01:42:46 PM

Lion,

Using your own analogy, if you are carrying a potentially deadly virus that you are not showing symptoms of, aren’t you endangering others by insisting on your freedoms? See your neighbors front lawn illustration...

If I was sick and intentionally went around trying to infect people, and it could be proven in a court of law that that was the case, then yes.  Otherwise no.  Peoples rights don't get taken if they are sick.  Being sick is not a crime and should never be.

Being sick should not be a crime unless someone is purposefully trying to infect others.  This has been adjudicated before with HIV and other diseases.  People currently are being arrested/charged for licking items in the grocery store during the pandemic, for example.

But the bigger question I have for you is this:  Are you aware that you can infect other people - without trying to - because covid is infectious for days before you have symptoms?  This means, for example, you could be feeling perfectly fine today and go out and shake hands with your neighbor and potentially cause them covid so severe it might kill them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 04, 2020, 02:14:49 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 02:05:58 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 04, 2020, 01:42:46 PM

Lion,

Using your own analogy, if you are carrying a potentially deadly virus that you are not showing symptoms of, aren’t you endangering others by insisting on your freedoms? See your neighbors front lawn illustration...

If I was sick and intentionally went around trying to infect people, and it could be proven in a court of law that that was the case, then yes.  Otherwise no.  Peoples rights don't get taken if they are sick.  Being sick is not a crime and should never be.

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 01:45:51 PM

As opposed to the current dictator in chief?

 :lol.  You know what, if Trump is removing regulations, then  :tup, if he's being a bully then  :tdwn.

So you're only endangering people if you're doing it deliberately? If I walk down the street firing a gun at no one in particular, I don't think I'll get off with a "Well I wasn't intending to shoot anyone" if someone gets hit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 02:16:49 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 02:14:01 PM

People currently are being arrested/charged for licking items in the grocery store during the pandemic, for example.

Well that should be a crime regardless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 02:23:57 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 04, 2020, 01:42:46 PM

Lion,

Using your own analogy, if you are carrying a potentially deadly virus that you are not showing symptoms of, aren’t you endangering others by insisting on your freedoms? See your neighbors front lawn illustration...

But, legally, the front lawn isn't necessarily because he's "endangering"; it's his neighbor's right to property that you're infringing (and the consequences would be applicable whether there was real "danger" or not; substitute "taking a dump on the lawn" or "putting 25 plastic pink flamingos on the lawn").   There are very few "rights" in the strict sense of the word that are concerned with "endangerment"; the rest of us do not have the right to be "free" from danger.  In this way, the flu analogies are apt, even if the viruses themselves are different.   If it truly was just about "endangering" others, or putting them at risk, then we WOULD quarantine from flu.  But we don't. 

Almost all the infringements of rights that we usually talk about are not JUST infringements, but compromises where two competing rights are in conflict.   It's not a coincidence that the most egregiously argued rights are those where the two competing infringements are hard to quantify (or that both parties don't experience to the same degree). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 02:25:07 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 02:16:49 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 02:14:01 PM

People currently are being arrested/charged for licking items in the grocery store during the pandemic, for example.

Well that should be a crime regardless.

Agreed.  I literally just saw another story about an arrest for this again today.   :angry:

And ew. *vomit emoticon*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 04, 2020, 02:35:44 PM

As long as my regularly elected representatives are allowed to democratically discuss and vote on the matter, I don't mind my government temporally limiting some rights, in the whole nation's interest during an emergency. After all those same rights have been written down by samely regularly elected representatives who had known and endured actual dictatorship.

There is an amount of overreaction, but it's due to an infuriatingly late reaction.

Not arguing, just offering a bit of perspective from a place where reports and memories of tyranny are still very alive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2020, 02:38:47 PM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 04, 2020, 02:14:49 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 02:05:58 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 04, 2020, 01:42:46 PM

Lion,

Using your own analogy, if you are carrying a potentially deadly virus that you are not showing symptoms of, aren’t you endangering others by insisting on your freedoms? See your neighbors front lawn illustration...

If I was sick and intentionally went around trying to infect people, and it could be proven in a court of law that that was the case, then yes.  Otherwise no.  Peoples rights don't get taken if they are sick.  Being sick is not a crime and should never be.

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 04, 2020, 01:45:51 PM

As opposed to the current dictator in chief?

 :lol.  You know what, if Trump is removing regulations, then  :tup, if he's being a bully then  :tdwn.

So you're only endangering people if you're doing it deliberately? If I walk down the street firing a gun at no one in particular, I don't think I'll get off with a "Well I wasn't intending to shoot anyone" if someone gets hit.

There's a concept within the legal notion of negligence called "duty".   You have to have a duty to another person or persons for there even to be the possibility of negligence.   That duty can be specific, such as a work obligation or a professional obligation, but it can also be what's called the "general duty of care".  The "duty of care" is simply a duty to conduct yourself as a reasonable person, acting under similar circumstances, would conduct himself.   I do not have a duty to make sure that everyone around me is free from any and all viruses that may be occasioned on my person.   But I do have a duty to not put you in unreasonable harm (the shooting wildly would qualify; licking the beef patties in Stop and Shop would too, likely). 

Three or four people have made the point that this is about risk to others; I know for me, personally, that is relevant information, but doesn't radically change the math.  If I can unknowingly infect someone (and potentially kill them) by coming in close contact or shaking their hands, the answer isn't necessarily for both of us to stay in our houses.  I think that's the point that some are trying to make; there can be a middle ground that we all agree on, and adhere to.  Then, if we don't adhere to it, we can have consequences.   Hell, for all I care, classify a "handshake" as "attempted murder"; it can't be for various reasons but the point is, it's not necessarily about the facts themselves, it's the conclusions DRAWN from those facts.

Where the quarantine is effective, though, is in creating a mind-set;  in terms of actually addressing the virus, I think it is overkill, but as a temporary but powerful "reset" button to get people to adjust their thinking - and I don't just mean in terms of transmitting a virus - I think it has value.   It removed the incentive for bosses, for example, to hold COVID-19 related exposure decisions against their employees.  Now, though, I'm wondering if it's not necessary for an equivalent "reset" to the thinking that still want to call those that want to relax the standards "stupid", "greedy", or, worse, "Republican".  (I kid, I kid about everything after the "greedy".)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 04, 2020, 02:42:27 PM

Last week I ordered a couple galaxy-print masks on Etsy. Took a while to arrive but they showed up this morning. I think they look pretty cool. They didn't fit very well, though, until I did some adjusting to the simple yarn straps. Combined with a bandana for double coverage it made me feel way less anxious when I had to go to Wal-Mart on my lunch. I got one in a blue and purple color scheme too.

Stat boosts: -30% ugliness, +20% fabulousness, +2% to poison defense

(https://i.imgur.com/Epcq11Y.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 04, 2020, 03:09:01 PM

And a +10 to highlighting those dreamy brown eyes of yours...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 04, 2020, 04:10:26 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 11:34:44 AM

On the issue of whether or not the U.S. government is abridging "fundamental rights" under the U.S. Constitution, the answer is unequivocally "yes."  That isn't really up for debate.

I'm sorry if I seem dumb and asking the same questions, but what rights? What rights exactly are the government taking away?

We can still speak freely.
We can still vote.
Gary can keep his guns.
We can still worship.

Sorry, I guess I should brush up on my Bill Of Rights. :lol That's all I got.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 04:16:54 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 02:16:49 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 04, 2020, 02:14:01 PM

People currently are being arrested/charged for licking items in the grocery store during the pandemic, for example.

Well that should be a crime regardless.

Yep, the products on the shelves at stores are the store's property until it is purchased by a patron. Definitely a violation of property rights and rightly should be punished.

And Stadler, I 100% agree with everything you said.

Danger will always exist, it can't be removed from society. The more we try the less freedom we have.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 04, 2020, 04:20:06 PM

@ Lion, sorry man if I seemed like I was coming at you last night. probably a bit of frustration on my part with things I don't understand.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 04:55:02 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 01:33:48 PM

Bosk, I agree with your first statement but disagree with the second.  I don't believe government has authority, constitutional or otherwise, to curtail rights; ever.  But I also realize that is a pipe dream in this day and age.

If you are saying you subjectively feel that governments (or our government specifically) should not have the authority to do so, you are entitled to that, and I won't debate it.  If you are saying the U.S. government in actually does not have that authority enumerated in the U.S. Constitution and the nation's body of laws interpreting it since the founding of the country, that is incorrect.  And, again, it's not even really up for debate.

Quote from: TAC on May 04, 2020, 04:10:26 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 11:34:44 AM

On the issue of whether or not the U.S. government is abridging "fundamental rights" under the U.S. Constitution, the answer is unequivocally "yes."  That isn't really up for debate.

I'm sorry if I seem dumb and asking the same questions, but what rights? What rights exactly are the government taking away?

We can still speak freely.
We can still vote.
Gary can keep his guns.
We can still worship.

Sorry, I guess I should brush up on my Bill Of Rights. :lol That's all I got.

Just a couple of quick examples:
-Right to assemble:  People have been arrested, and others have been fined. 
-Right to property for those who have businesses, which are their property, and been told "you are closed until further notice."

Again, not saying those are "wrong" calls by the government or that they aren't justified, at least on some level.  But as far as rights being abridged, they actually have been.  And that will happen in emergency situations.  That's just the way it is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 04, 2020, 05:26:28 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 04:55:02 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 04, 2020, 04:10:26 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 11:34:44 AM

On the issue of whether or not the U.S. government is abridging "fundamental rights" under the U.S. Constitution, the answer is unequivocally "yes."  That isn't really up for debate.

I'm sorry if I seem dumb and asking the same questions, but what rights? What rights exactly are the government taking away?

We can still speak freely.
We can still vote.
Gary can keep his guns.
We can still worship.

Sorry, I guess I should brush up on my Bill Of Rights. :lol That's all I got.

Just a couple of quick examples:
-Right to assemble:  People have been arrested, and others have been fined. 
-Right to property for those who have businesses, which are their property, and been told "you are closed until further notice."

Again, not saying those are "wrong" calls by the government or that they aren't justified, at least on some level.  But as far as rights being abridged, they actually have been.  And that will happen in emergency situations.  That's just the way it is.

As far as assembly, I guess I can follow that, but I take assembly as getting together for a movement of some sort. Aren't people smart enough to realize this isn't some oppressive move to "keep the people down"?

As far as property, the government isn't taking it away, are they? It's still a person's property, isn't it. As far as being open, the government is saying that it is not safe to run your business in the current environment, but they are certainly not taking anyone's property away from them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 05:46:30 PM

"Taking" in the eyes of the law does not necessarily mean removing it from your possession.  Undue restrictions on the use of your property is a "taking."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 04, 2020, 05:49:29 PM

Does a temporary closure in the midst of a pandemic constitute an "undue" closure? Seems like a stretch to me.

And I know you're just pointing out the terminology and stuff for me. I'm not arguing. Just trying to understand.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 04, 2020, 06:06:46 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 04:16:54 PM

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

(https://i.imgur.com/uhECUxN.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/VQExVd1.jpg)


Purchased at the Old State House in Boston.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 07:34:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 04, 2020, 04:20:06 PM

@ Lion, sorry man if I seemed like I was coming at you last night. probably a bit of frustration on my part with things I don't understand.

TAC, no worries man.  I just wasn't following where you were going with this at first.  Thanks for the apology, but it isn't necessary.  I appreciate the debate very much.  I have no problem with folks disagreeing with me.  Where I work, I am the only one who thinks the way I do about liberty.  So I am used to it.  :tup

Quote from: TAC on May 04, 2020, 06:06:46 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 04:16:54 PM

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

(https://i.imgur.com/uhECUxN.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/VQExVd1.jpg)


Purchased at the Old State House in Boston.

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 08:40:55 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 04, 2020, 05:49:29 PM

temporary closure in the midst of a pandemic

You're jumping right to step #2.  I'm only talking about whether government is infringing on a right.  The answer to that is "yes."  Then you can go to step 2 and ask whether it is justified.  That's where we can debate.  For me, the answer is "eh...probably, but I'm not entirely sure, and I'm glad I'm not the one to have to make that decision.  AND I'm even more glad that I can count myself among the fortunate who really isn't impacted all that much, truth be told." 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 04, 2020, 09:28:28 PM

On the closing of businesses .... absolutely governments have the right to do that for public health measures. There are health standards that all businesses - especially food establishments - must follow, or be forced to close. Let guests see a few cockroaches or rats in the dining room, and see how fast the business gets shut down. When anyone is capable of spreading an extremely contagious virus, I think it’s reasonable for places to be forced to close. That’s just me.

I guess my beef (not related to gubment or politics) is that the daily cases and deaths are only just now (the past week or so) meaningfully and consistently declining (by-and-large). So, despite all the physical distancing measures we are taking, cases still abound. Now people some want to (generally speaking) increase our collective chance of exposure?  The curve isn’t flattened yet people ... it *LOOKS* like we’re entering the downside of the curve, but that could change pdq.

I just don’t get it. Anyone testing positive today contracted it within the last 2 weeks, max ... while we have still been under a quasi lockdown.

I’ll still be hunkering down except for essentials. Whether businesses start opening up or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 09:46:40 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 04, 2020, 09:28:28 PM

I’ll still be hunkering down except for essentials. Whether businesses start opening up or not.

On a personal note, so will the Cool family. Wife is getting hating being on lockdown but on the positive side (in a weird way) she is so burned out at the end of the day, and especially on the weekends, she doesn't want to do anything but relax at home. I am not missing anything. I could live like this for years. I just feel bad my daughter is missing out on school and connecting with her friends and activities (rec pool, library, etc...)

We are planning a family meet up in late May with my sister and her family and the grandparents, who are all staying at home as much as possible (sister and husband working from home, dad is retired, mom is working part-time at a clinic taking all sorts of precautions (screening staff and clients before they enter, etc...) I don't want to sound naive, but I feel like we can start expanding our "quarantine family" a little bit.

I have thoughts on the political side of the last page or two of discussion, but will keep them out of this thread, other than to say WA is allowing smaller, less populated and less impacted counties the opportunity to get back to "normal" sooner than is planned for the populous areas of the state that are hardest hit. A reasonable approach from a governor I don't usually find reasonable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 04, 2020, 10:08:20 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 04, 2020, 04:55:02 PM

If you are saying you subjectively feel that governments (or our government specifically) should not have the authority to do so, you are entitled to that, and I won't debate it. If you are saying the U.S. government in actually does not have that authority enumerated in the U.S. Constitution and the nation's body of laws interpreting it since the founding of the country, that is incorrect. And, again, it's not even really up for debate.

Well, I have read the constitution a few times through, and studied parts of it a lot more.  I am OK being wrong, but to my knowledge, there is no such authority given to the federal government to suspend rights for any reason.  However, if you have a quote saying otherwise, I would be very interested in seeing it.

Although, I have generally agreed with the other things you've stated regarding this subject.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 10:46:05 PM

Has the federal government suspended any rights? I thought that was solely being done on at the state level.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 05, 2020, 01:21:28 AM

The russian gov. is handling the pandemic the only way they know by throwing people out the window  :'( https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/europe/russia-medical-workers-windows-intl/index.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2020, 05:56:47 AM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 05, 2020, 01:21:28 AM

The russian gov. is handling the pandemic the only way they know by throwing people out the window  :'( https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/europe/russia-medical-workers-windows-intl/index.html

I saw that. WTF??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 05, 2020, 07:26:57 AM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 05, 2020, 01:21:28 AM

The russian gov. is handling the pandemic the only way they know by throwing people out the window  :'( https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/europe/russia-medical-workers-windows-intl/index.html

Russia is having a rough go of it but hey that's what authoritarian regimes do. They deny that the virus is problem and then they try to cover up the cases that they do have and then they try to silence people from speaking - WAIT - THAT'S OUR COUNTRY!!  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 05, 2020, 07:49:01 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 10:46:05 PM

Has the federal government suspended any rights? I thought that was solely being done on at the state level.

No they haven't, but states are bound by the constitution as well.

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 05, 2020, 01:21:28 AM

The russian gov. is handling the pandemic the only way they know by throwing people out the window  :'( https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/europe/russia-medical-workers-windows-intl/index.html

 :omg: That is messed up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 05, 2020, 07:55:39 AM

My wife has been furloughed until further notice.  She's not too upset, since she wasn't very interested in the job (part time work from home) and her boss (her friend) sucks at communicating with her.  But the extra income was very nice while it lasted and it allowed us to be financially comfortable and complete many home improvement projects and build up a good rainy day fund.  Now it's back to a single-income family until she decides if she wants to work again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 07:59:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 04, 2020, 05:49:29 PM

Does a temporary closure in the midst of a pandemic constitute an "undue" closure? Seems like a stretch to me.

And I know you're just pointing out the terminology and stuff for me. I'm not arguing. Just trying to understand.

TAC, if it helps, the premise of the rights - all rights, whether set out in the Constitution or not - are ours unless and until they are taken away.  Not all rights are equal.  Some, (say, the right to a Grand Jury, or the right to drive a car, or any law that draws ANY distinction between persons, like drinking ages), are just reviewed to see if the laws that govern them are irrational or arbitrary.  It's a fairly low standard, and any tangible connection between the law and the stated government purpose is usually enough to sustain the law. 

Other rights, though, as set forth in the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights either explicitly (freedom of speech) or implicitly (abortion) are considered "fundamental", not given to us by the government, but by "God" (widely interpreted to not literally be a "Christian God", but rather, by nature not man) and not to be lightly infringed on by this government.  The Supreme Court is the arbiter of these fundamental rights, and when they can be infringed.  Your question as to "undue" is not one that can or is answered at the individual level; I don't get to say what is "undue", nor does your local police officer, or your elected Representative, or even the President.  Because these rights are so basic and so important, any infringement of those rights, no matter how minor or temporary, get looked at with a higher level of scrutiny, and in fact, the test is called "strict scrutiny". 

Under this, the court has to decide THREE THINGS regarding any law or regulation:   is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"; is the law is "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose; and does the law use the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose.  I think there are absolutely infringements on liberty here; if you are restricted from moving from your state to the neighboring state - which was the case for a while between Connecticut and New York - a right was infringed.   Even the most fundamental rights have restrictions; look at Freedom of Speech (it's easiest, though it's still not easy):  the government cannot restrict the CONTENT of the Speech, generally, unless that content falls into a limited number of exceptions:  obscenity, fighting words (speech that incites imminent unlawful action), child pornography, but they can restrict time, place and manner IF there is a compelling state interest (note that it has to be a necessary or crucial interest, not just a "preferred" outcome).  So while a gay pride parade can't be restricted because it celebrates homosexuality (the content of the speech) it might not be allowed at 5:00 pm on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.   Political speech is widely and broadly protected, but not within 75 feet of your polling place.  Abortions are legal, but there are circumstances (late pregnancy) where they are restricted.  Guns are legal, but you need a permit to carry one. 

Here, I think there is clearly a compelling state interest - preserving the lives of a large portion of the population - the rest of it is up for discussion.  Is quarantine the most narrowly tailored way of addressing this?   Maybe maybe not, but this is in part why broad, absolute gun bans have not been upheld in courts (such as in Washington DC), because it was deemed "over broad".   Then the court must decide, were there any lesser restrictive measures that could be taken to achieve the same end?  Again, I think this is up for grabs; it's a fair question to ask:  could a requirement of masks, gloves and six feet right out of the gate been a less restrictive way of achieving the same goal?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 05, 2020, 08:03:25 AM

I was diagnosed with pleurisy on Saturday and it got better yesterday but today my shortness of breath has increased and I'm getting scared again. No other symptoms of COVID but the catch 22 is if I go to the pulmonary department that's probably like the worst place to go right now because of COVID-19. And I really can't tell if it's because of the pleurisy or anxiety or both. I'm a nervous wreck, and I can't take days off work even though I'm like the least essential person here. Grrr.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:08:23 AM

Bill, that helps a lot. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. It was extremely helpful.

I have really been trying to understand the viewpoint that "rights have been taken away".



My question, and I guess the sense of my frustration is WHAT THE FUCK WAS OUR GOVERNMENT SUPPOSED TO DO?

To me, it's either 1. Ignore it, or 2. Act. Seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't proposition.


Everyone is a fucking critic it seems.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:11:18 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:03:25 AM

I was diagnosed with pleurisy on Saturday and it got better yesterday but today my shortness of breath has increased and I'm getting scared again. No other symptoms of COVID but the catch 22 is if I go to the pulmonary department that's probably like the worst place to go right now because of COVID-19. And I really can't tell if it's because of the pleurisy or anxiety or both. I'm a nervous wreck, and I can't take days off work even though I'm like the least essential person here. Grrr.....

I had that before and it's painful. I started feeling it at work one day (this is almost 20 years ago). I literally felt like I was having a heart attack. I ended up driving myself to my local hospital, but I was working an hour away. Either a nurse or my wife stayed on the phone with me for the entire ride.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 05, 2020, 08:13:22 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:03:25 AM

I was diagnosed with pleurisy on Saturday and it got better yesterday but today my shortness of breath has increased and I'm getting scared again. No other symptoms of COVID but the catch 22 is if I go to the pulmonary department that's probably like the worst place to go right now because of COVID-19. And I really can't tell if it's because of the pleurisy or anxiety or both. I'm a nervous wreck, and I can't take days off work even though I'm like the least essential person here. Grrr.....

Have you had a chest xray or is that what the pulmonary visit is for?  I think it's ok to be anxious about going but as the staff people working there have a vested interest in staying safe themselves, I'd be anxious but I'd go.  Do you check your oxygen levels at home with a pulse oximeter?  Would your doc prescribe you a mild antianxiety med to get you through the appointment in pulmonary?  The rub there is that some meds depress respirations but if you were going to go hypoxic then being at pulmonary is where you want to be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 05, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:11:18 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:03:25 AM

I was diagnosed with pleurisy on Saturday and it got better yesterday but today my shortness of breath has increased and I'm getting scared again. No other symptoms of COVID but the catch 22 is if I go to the pulmonary department that's probably like the worst place to go right now because of COVID-19. And I really can't tell if it's because of the pleurisy or anxiety or both. I'm a nervous wreck, and I can't take days off work even though I'm like the least essential person here. Grrr.....

I had that before and it's painful. I started feeling it at work one day (this is almost 20 years ago). I literally felt like I was having a heart attack. I ended up driving myself to my local hospital, but I was working an hour away. Either a nurse or my wife stayed on the phone with me for the entire ride.

Tim, thank you for saying this, because when I went to the ER, I was deadly scared I was about to have a heart attack. That makes me feel better, because I know I'm not alone. I think the anxiety is really starting to get to me, because I just put on one of my face masks, and instantly started feeling a little better. Jesus, I hate all of this. Just want it to stop. They did an X-ray, EKG, blood work, everything came back fine, so I really can't tell how much of this is from the pleurisy and how much is from anxiety. Don't want to take pills but I might have to, idk

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 08:32:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 04, 2020, 09:28:28 PM

On the closing of businesses .... absolutely governments have the right to do that for public health measures. There are health standards that all businesses - especially food establishments - must follow, or be forced to close. Let guests see a few cockroaches or rats in the dining room, and see how fast the business gets shut down. When anyone is capable of spreading an extremely contagious virus, I think it’s reasonable for places to be forced to close. That’s just me.

Those are, though, fundamentally different.   It's one thing to say "you have this right, but in order to exercise it, you have to do a, b and c."   And if the business does a, b, and c, there is NO compelling reason to deny them the right to conduct their business.  So, did all those businesses do their a, b, c's?   If so, this is a different analysis.   Now we have to ask, is that the most narrowest restriction that could have been placed?  Were there any other lesser restrictions that could have achieved that goal? 

Quote

I guess my beef (not related to gubment or politics) is that the daily cases and deaths are only just now (the past week or so) meaningfully and consistently declining (by-and-large). So, despite all the physical distancing measures we are taking, cases still abound. Now people some want to (generally speaking) increase our collective chance of exposure?  The curve isn’t flattened yet people ... it *LOOKS* like we’re entering the downside of the curve, but that could change pdq.

I just don’t get it. Anyone testing positive today contracted it within the last 2 weeks, max ... while we have still been under a quasi lockdown.

But again, same question; what does it mean to "increase our collective exposure"?   If the scale is 1 to 100, 1 being "no exposure" and 100 being "direct injection of the virus to the heart muscle", where is closing?   5? 10? 25? 75?   Where is opening, but putting on masks and gloves and staying three feet away?   10?  15?  30?   What about six feet? 

I can't speak for anyone else, but the concept of "it's risk to EVERYONE ELSE" was clear at the outset.   Got it, not about any one individual.  But that doesn't answer the question.   If I DO NOT have sex ever again, I'm not going to get pregnant.  Is that the narrowest, least restrictive way of achieving the specific goal of not getting pregnant (and bringing risk to another individual, in the form of my partner and that unwanted baby)?   No.  Many of us accept the 17% failure rate for cervical caps, or the 13% failure rate for condoms and consider the matter solved.  Others demand better numbers and use a pill, with a 7% failure rate, but accept the side-effects of that medication. Still others demand better, and use IUDs, with the greater risks inherent in that device, to lower the odds to somewhere under 1% failure, or an implant, with yet higher risks and a lower failure rate (as low as 0.01%).  (https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/contraception/index.htm) Others combine them and hope that what cannot be achieved with quality can be achieved with quantity.   The difference between the cervical cap and the IUDs is stark; but is the difference between an IUD and an implant is not; other variables must come into play to make a thorough sound decision.

The efficacy of just focusing on "risk to others" absent any other variable is the point I think many are trying to make here. 

Quote

I’ll still be hunkering down except for essentials. Whether businesses start opening up or not.

As will I, likely.  That's up to us to tend our own garden.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:33:21 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:28:05 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:11:18 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:03:25 AM

I was diagnosed with pleurisy on Saturday and it got better yesterday but today my shortness of breath has increased and I'm getting scared again. No other symptoms of COVID but the catch 22 is if I go to the pulmonary department that's probably like the worst place to go right now because of COVID-19. And I really can't tell if it's because of the pleurisy or anxiety or both. I'm a nervous wreck, and I can't take days off work even though I'm like the least essential person here. Grrr.....

I had that before and it's painful. I started feeling it at work one day (this is almost 20 years ago). I literally felt like I was having a heart attack. I ended up driving myself to my local hospital, but I was working an hour away. Either a nurse or my wife stayed on the phone with me for the entire ride.

Tim, thank you for saying this, because when I went to the ER, I was deadly scared I was about to have a heart attack. That makes me feel better, because I know I'm not alone. I think the anxiety is really starting to get to me, because I just put on one of my face masks, and instantly started feeling a little better. Jesus, I hate all of this. Just want it to stop. They did an X-ray, EKG, blood work, everything came back fine, so I really can't tell how much of this is from the pleurisy and how much is from anxiety. Don't want to take pills but I might have to. Old man (boss) hasn't even asked me if I'm okay or how I'm feeling, just said "go home if you want" and then lectured me on the costs of hospital visits which I am acutely aware of

Yeah, every time I drew a breath, I thought it would be my last one.

So they diagnosed you. That should make you feel better. I mean, that's what they do, and Pleurisy isn't all that uncommon. It's just surprisingly painful.

It should pass in a few days. I can't remember if I was given anything or it worked itself out. But I remember being very alarmed at first.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 05, 2020, 08:36:59 AM

The shortness of breath worries me more than anything. I hope it does pass in a few days. I think I'll just confine myself to bed and I Love Lucy reruns like the old man I am.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on May 05, 2020, 08:38:09 AM

Here in Tennessee, the governor has given the ok to open restaurants with restrictions such as 50% capacity and strict cleaning rules.  So far in our area, only the Mexican restaurants are opening for dine in.  I believe that a lot of the other business are take out/drive thru only, partly from the restrictions making it not worth opening for dine in at this time. 

I told my wife, I want stock in Sonic.  They have not missed a beat.  Ours is normally busy, but not lined up busy to get a spot.

Our Logans is closed for good party from the virus, but they were looking to reorganize the before the virus.  Also, our Ihop is going to close for good.  I am now wondering about the bars and restaurants in downtown Nashville.  How many of these will close for good?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 08:42:19 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 04, 2020, 10:46:05 PM

Has the federal government suspended any rights? I thought that was solely being done on at the state level.

The Constitution applies to the states in the same manner, by virtue of the 14th Amendment. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:43:45 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:36:59 AM

The shortness of breath worries me more than anything. I hope it does pass in a few days. I think I'll just confine myself to bed and I Love Lucy reruns like the old man I am.  :lol

What you have to remember is that it's NOT a shortness of breath. The pain is the inflation of your lungs rubbing against the inflamed lining of your lungs. It doesn't have to do with actual lung capacity. You're taking short breaths to manage the pain. It's not lung function that's damaged.

If you're doing shallow breathing to maintain the pain, I remember every now and then biting the bullet and taking a nice deep breath. While painful, I actually felt my lungs felt better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 05, 2020, 08:45:16 AM

Kattelox, did they give you a treatment plan or did they just tell you that it'll heal on its own?  (Smoking makes it worse from what I've read but you're not a smoker.)

 If the ER didn't give you much info it might be a good idea to call your primary care doctor just to discuss the ER visit and see if there is anything you should be doing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 05, 2020, 08:47:05 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:43:45 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:36:59 AM

The shortness of breath worries me more than anything. I hope it does pass in a few days. I think I'll just confine myself to bed and I Love Lucy reruns like the old man I am.  :lol

What you have to remember is that it's NOT a shortness of breath. The pain is the inflation of your lungs rubbing against the inflamed lining of your lungs. It doesn't have to do with actual lung capacity. You're taking short breaths to manage the pain. It's not lung function that's damaged.

If you're doing shallow breathing to maintain the pain, I remember every now and then biting the bullet and taking a nice deep breath. While painful, I actually felt my lungs felt better.

Ahhh.. gotcha. Okay. Just gotta stay calm. Thanks, Tim. @Lethean, the sheets they gave me mention hydrocodones but I can't take those without becoming a zombie at work so I've been taking Tylenol like they also suggested. They said it'll go away within a few days to 2 weeks... I guess it's just my natural hypochondria that's making it so much worse than it is, coupled with the COVID stuff. Thanks ya'll, just talking about it makes me feel a bit relieved. Sorry for derailing the thread too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 08:49:25 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 05, 2020, 08:08:23 AM

Bill, that helps a lot. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. It was extremely helpful.

I have really been trying to understand the viewpoint that "rights have been taken away".



My question, and I guess the sense of my frustration is WHAT THE FUCK WAS OUR GOVERNMENT SUPPOSED TO DO?

To me, it's either 1. Ignore it, or 2. Act. Seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't proposition.


Everyone is a fucking critic it seems.

Just want to say, I read the thread in order, so I feel bad talking philosophical, esoteric Constitutional fineries while our brother and colleague is dealing with a health issue, but...

I think the real question isn't WHETHER to act, but HOW to act.  I think this would have been a moot point if during the initial Draconian dramatic response, a less restrictive but as effective alternative presented itself.  But it didn't.  We've been working in real time on this, and as in any crisis, you make a decision only when you absolutely have to, since information is changing sometimes minute to minute. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 05, 2020, 08:52:07 AM

I would rather you quibble about those esoteric fineries than pay attention to my problems haha :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 08:53:31 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:52:07 AM

I would rather you quibble about those esoteric fineries than pay attention to my problems haha :)

Well, certainly we're thinking about you and hope you get ahead of this quickly.  I can absolutely sympathize with the notion of the anxiety being as bad as the condition itself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 05, 2020, 09:09:51 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 05, 2020, 08:03:25 AM

I was diagnosed with pleurisy on Saturday and it got better yesterday but today my shortness of breath has increased and I'm getting scared again. No other symptoms of COVID but the catch 22 is if I go to the pulmonary department that's probably like the worst place to go right now because of COVID-19. And I really can't tell if it's because of the pleurisy or anxiety or both. I'm a nervous wreck, and I can't take days off work even though I'm like the least essential person here. Grrr.....

That is scary stuff Kattelox!  I really hope you get feeling better soon.  I can't even imagine what that must feel like.  I'll pray for you man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2020, 09:31:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 08:49:25 AM

I think the real question isn't WHETHER to act, but HOW to act.  I think this would have been a moot point if during the initial Draconian dramatic response, a less restrictive but as effective alternative presented itself.  But it didn't.  We've been working in real time on this, and as in any crisis, you make a decision only when you absolutely have to, since information is changing sometimes minute to minute.

But what would've that "as effective" alternative been? I mean, as you say, the whole thing unfolded in real time, and continues to unfold.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I generally think things were done in good faith for everyone's health. I mean, look at the decision that had to be made. It's just a no win situation for anyone in that position if you ask me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 10:13:01 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 05, 2020, 09:31:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 08:49:25 AM

I think the real question isn't WHETHER to act, but HOW to act.  I think this would have been a moot point if during the initial Draconian dramatic response, a less restrictive but as effective alternative presented itself.  But it didn't.  We've been working in real time on this, and as in any crisis, you make a decision only when you absolutely have to, since information is changing sometimes minute to minute.

But what would've that "as effective" alternative been? I mean, as you say, the whole thing unfolded in real time, and continues to unfold.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I generally think things were done in good faith for everyone's health. I mean, look at the decision that had to be made. It's just a no win situation for anyone in that position if you ask me.

I don't think you're ignorant at all; and I certainly agree with you that it's a no-win situation.   I think at the time, in the moment, it was the best response.  What I'm talking about is now, however many weeks later, as we continually reassess (or should be, that is).  The problem is that there seems to be a whole lot more going on that isn't related to facts or rational tactical assessment. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 05, 2020, 10:22:36 AM

one fact is there needs to be a whole lot more testing going on to safely go on with deconfinement.  For a country like the US you would need in the millions of tests per day, at very least 500 000.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 05, 2020, 11:38:17 AM

https://mynorthwest.com/1853024/seattle-mayor-durkan-crowds-in-stadiums-not-returning-anytime-soon/?show=comments#comments

Quote

Healthcare Transformation Institute Director Zeke Emanuel predicted that large gatherings like concerts, conferences, and sporting events wouldn’t likely return until “fall 2021 at the earliest.”

Damn.

Quote

“In Taiwan they had their first games and they actually had mannequins in the seats,” she pointed out.

Well, that's just... creepy. "And Mike Trout comes to the plate, bases loaded, down by three, two outs in the bottom of the ninth, and listen to this crowd!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2020, 11:52:08 AM

Yeah, I mean, we may soon have to start piping in crowd noise for these things.  So at least the Seahawks can say they were pioneers at something.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on May 05, 2020, 11:55:37 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 05, 2020, 11:52:08 AM

Yeah, I mean, we may soon have to start piping in crowd noise for these things.  So at least the Seahawks can say they were pioneers at something.  :biggrin:

Ehhh, WWE has allegedly done that for their taped shows.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 05, 2020, 12:00:57 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 05, 2020, 11:52:08 AM

Yeah, I mean, we may soon have to start piping in crowd noise for these things.  So at least the Seahawks can say they were pioneers at something.  :biggrin:

I applaud your wit, sir :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2020, 12:01:36 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on May 05, 2020, 11:55:37 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 05, 2020, 11:52:08 AM

Yeah, I mean, we may soon have to start piping in crowd noise for these things.  So at least the Seahawks can say they were pioneers at something.  :biggrin:

Ehhh, WWE has allegedly done that for their taped shows.

Don't ruin my moment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on May 05, 2020, 12:10:37 PM

COVID is still hitting here in Southeast PA.

Over the past three weeks instead of the standard 120 hours I am probably closer to 200.

During most of that time I've been playing a fun game of body shuffling that involves getting deaths at night, and then figuring out who we can get in their casket or cremated soon enough to free up the needed cooler space for those new deaths. Medical certification process between doctors, coroners, and the state is backed up and error prone because of new processes and is often leading to delays in cremations which is not helping at all.

And just when I thought we were coming up for air at the end of last week, had some cooler spaces open and were starting to at least get caught up another one of my directors went out with COVID symptoms and we're still awaiting results. I previously had an admin and another director out with symptons but both were thankfully negative, and another director who was self-quarantined for a month. This new one is looking like a much more likely a positive. Considering at full strength I'm a full-time staff of 7 with two facilities it's been really tough. Then this weekend we got nailed again.

This is easily the craziest time I've ever had in 15+ years of deathcare, and I'm ready for a break.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 05, 2020, 12:16:18 PM

Turn your morgue in to a front for a prostitution ring. It worked for The Fonz and Batman.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 05, 2020, 12:20:01 PM

The Late Night Talk Shows and Saturday Night Live just do not work. They basically prove Comedy doesn't work without an audience. It's like watching a bad comedian get no laughs and still keeps on telling jokes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 05, 2020, 12:22:39 PM

It's unfortunate for some of us Natives, as we don't cremate our people. I'm worried of that happening to some if they do die the hospital.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on May 05, 2020, 12:24:57 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 05, 2020, 12:22:39 PM

It's unfortunate for some of us Natives, as we don't cremate our people. I'm worried of that happening to some if they do die the hospital.

I mean, completely different laws and jurisdictions where you are, and I can only speak for PA, but here it's much more likely if there was ever some sort of override it would be towards burial, not cremation. Even though cremation is cheaper the red tape and laws around getting it done are much tougher.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 05, 2020, 12:36:27 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 05, 2020, 12:16:18 PM

Turn your morgue in to a front for a prostitution ring. It worked for The Fonz and Batman.

We are not pimps...we're love brokers...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 12:46:18 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 05, 2020, 12:16:18 PM

Turn your morgue in to a front for a prostitution ring. It worked for The Fonz and Batman.

"What if you mix the mayonaise in the can with the tuna fish?!?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 05, 2020, 12:49:20 PM

Yes! Someone call Starkist!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 05, 2020, 12:51:28 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 05, 2020, 12:20:01 PM

The Late Night Talk Shows and Saturday Night Live just do not work. They basically prove Comedy doesn't work without an audience. It's like watching a bad comedian get no laughs and still keeps on telling jokes.

I actually have been digging many of the late night shows I've seen (though definitely not all or most of them have I seen) and parts of SNL I think were really great and creative, and others not so much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 05, 2020, 12:56:05 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 05, 2020, 12:46:18 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 05, 2020, 12:16:18 PM

Turn your morgue in to a front for a prostitution ring. It worked for The Fonz and Batman.

"What if you mix the mayonaise in the can with the tuna fish?!?"

Seinfeld shower thought: why do they call it 'tuna fish'? "Oh, I thought you meant tuna cat." Just call it tuna!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2020, 01:12:24 PM

Katt, you doing any better, buddy?  Worried about you.  :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 05, 2020, 01:17:59 PM

I appreciate the concern, bosk (and others who expressed similar thoughts, not ignoring you). Yeah. I have some 'severe' strength Tylenol that I'm popping every 4 hours and I think it's helping my symptoms; I was short of breath again about an hour ago, took some Tylenol 30 minutes ago, and I'm breathing a little better now. Trying not to go home from work but I think I'm just going to lay in bed after work every day until I'm normal. Covid cases keep rising in town and I wouldn't be surprised if this makes me more susceptible to the virus so now I'm doubling down on not going places.

(https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/tell_my_wife_hello_neutral_futurama.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 05, 2020, 01:20:51 PM

Yo Katt, we need ya here so don't go gettin' all sick on us.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 05, 2020, 03:38:01 PM

And now, for something different:

Band made up of members of the security of one of Milan's airports playing Judas Priest  :metal the name of the band? METAL DETECTOR  :metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqoywCxobCk

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 05, 2020, 04:17:02 PM

That's a great name for a band!

:metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 05, 2020, 05:14:25 PM

Pritzker unveiled a very thorough plan to reopen Illinois. Biggest thing I see here is no concerts for quite some time. They won't be allowed until we are fully back to normal.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/pritzker-introduces-regional-phased-plan-for-reopening-illinois/

Broke the state into regions and laid out a 5 phase plan to reopen. The regions do not have to be on the same phase. This was done to appease the rural areas. Makes sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 05, 2020, 06:15:02 PM

I honestly expect no concerts, sporting events with spectators, or other large gatherings until spring 2021 at the earliest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on May 05, 2020, 08:10:18 PM

COVID-19 Futures, Explained With Playable Simulations
https://ncase.me/covid-19/

A game developer and an epidemiologist made this really neat interactive article / simulator. Check it out!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2020, 09:04:19 PM

That's nuts. I'll have to check it tomorrow after work before I hit the beers!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 06:40:35 AM

I'm curious what the legality is of stores barring groups of more than one coming into the store, or barring kids from coming in, or even wearing masks. Does a store really have the right to tell me I can't bring my kid in? Or go in together with my wife? Or demand that I wear a mask? Now, I haven't tried to get around the rules because I haven't needed to. It's possible no one would say anything.

I went to a hardware store the other day that said it wasn't letting in kids under 16. What if I was a single dad with a 4 year old, not old enough to stay home or in the car alone. What am I supposed to do in the situation?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 06:48:18 AM

So I've been working 10 hour days for 7 days a week, for like a month now.  I volunteered at my job to work on the SBA PPP Program in various different roles.  I am taking a pay cut, and working 30 extra hours a week....but its temporary, and I wanted to help as many small businesses as I could.  And I won't lie, it looks good to the higher ups.  So I do know a LOT of what is going on with the program.  Figured I would offer myself up for any questions about the SBA PPP....if not, no biggie....I need a nap :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 06, 2020, 07:33:56 AM

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 05, 2020, 08:10:18 PM

COVID-19 Futures, Explained With Playable Simulations
https://ncase.me/covid-19/

A game developer and an epidemiologist made this really neat interactive article / simulator. Check it out!

Awesome!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 06, 2020, 08:03:38 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 06:40:35 AM

I'm curious what the legality is of stores barring groups of more than one coming into the store, or barring kids from coming in, or even wearing masks. Does a store really have the right to tell me I can't bring my kid in? Or go in together with my wife? Or demand that I wear a mask? Now, I haven't tried to get around the rules because I haven't needed to. It's possible no one would say anything.

I went to a hardware store the other day that said it wasn't letting in kids under 16. What if I was a single dad with a 4 year old, not old enough to stay home or in the car alone. What am I supposed to do in the situation?

Depends on the situation, and it can get complicated, but generally they can.   It's all dependent on your locality, and what the local (state, county, city/town) ordinances say, but generally, as long as it isn't arbitrary, it's applied equally to all classes/groups of people, and doesn't specifically discriminate against a specific protected group.

Not knowing all the laws in place in your neck of the woods, I'd say that limiting numbers is no problem, requiring you to wear a mask is no problem as long as EVERYONE has to wear a mask, and they'd likely be okay if they barred anyone under 16 as long as there are no specific laws saying otherwise, and they were consistently applying that across the board. 

What are you supposed to do?  Find another store, find someone to watch him, or find another way to order the stuff you need.  I don't mean to be a dick here, but you don't have a RIGHT to buy something (absent all the caveats above; that's partly why I'm kind of anti- some of these laws; they don't necessarily promote equality, they actually put certain classes in a BETTER position than they would have been otherwise.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 06, 2020, 08:04:22 AM

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 05, 2020, 08:10:18 PM

COVID-19 Futures, Explained With Playable Simulations
https://ncase.me/covid-19/

A game developer and an epidemiologist made this really neat interactive article / simulator. Check it out!

If a Game Developer and An Epidemiologist worked together. Now I'm wondering if Game Developers worked with CIA and other entities to develop Games like Deus Ex or the many Military War Games, CoD, MoH, etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 08:08:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 06, 2020, 08:04:22 AM

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 05, 2020, 08:10:18 PM

COVID-19 Futures, Explained With Playable Simulations
https://ncase.me/covid-19/

A game developer and an epidemiologist made this really neat interactive article / simulator. Check it out!

If a Game Developer and An Epidemiologist worked together. Now I'm wondering if Game Developers worked with CIA and other entities to develop Games like Deus Ex or the many Military War Games, CoD, MoH, etc.

Not sure about that but I've read numerous reports that the US Army has dropped millions into video game research for training over the last couple decades. Not sure about the other branches or where you draw the line between 'game' and 'simulation' (ie flight simulation) but yeah, the game training thing is real, from reports I've read.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on May 06, 2020, 08:20:25 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 06, 2020, 08:04:22 AM

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 05, 2020, 08:10:18 PM

COVID-19 Futures, Explained With Playable Simulations
https://ncase.me/covid-19/

A game developer and an epidemiologist made this really neat interactive article / simulator. Check it out!

If a Game Developer and An Epidemiologist worked together. Now I'm wondering if Game Developers worked with CIA and other entities to develop Games like Deus Ex or the many Military War Games, CoD, MoH, etc.

As a game developer myself I can say that those types of collaborations happen all the time, though likely not for the games you mentioned which are all primarily for entertainment purposes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 06, 2020, 08:45:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 06:40:35 AM

I'm curious what the legality is of stores barring groups of more than one coming into the store, or barring kids from coming in, or even wearing masks. Does a store really have the right to tell me I can't bring my kid in? Or go in together with my wife? Or demand that I wear a mask? Now, I haven't tried to get around the rules because I haven't needed to. It's possible no one would say anything.

I went to a hardware store the other day that said it wasn't letting in kids under 16. What if I was a single dad with a 4 year old, not old enough to stay home or in the car alone. What am I supposed to do in the situation?

From a legal standpoint, I have no idea, but from a liberty standpoint, I would say a business owner has complete autonomy regarding how they decide to run their business.  If they make rules to only allow one patron at a time, then they have every right to do so.

But yeah, that can create difficult situations in some circumstances.  I would think though that if you were a single dad with a 4 year old and had a chance to speak to the store manager about your situation, I would imagine that most businesses would be willing to work with you.  After all they want to make money and keep their customers happy so they will return later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 06, 2020, 08:48:56 AM

I agree with Northern Lion. We can't judge the first months after a global lockdown with the "rules" before the Covid-19. We'll have to adapt to new situations and compromise a bit here and there for the immediate future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 08:50:14 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 06, 2020, 08:45:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 06:40:35 AM

I'm curious what the legality is of stores barring groups of more than one coming into the store, or barring kids from coming in, or even wearing masks. Does a store really have the right to tell me I can't bring my kid in? Or go in together with my wife? Or demand that I wear a mask? Now, I haven't tried to get around the rules because I haven't needed to. It's possible no one would say anything.

I went to a hardware store the other day that said it wasn't letting in kids under 16. What if I was a single dad with a 4 year old, not old enough to stay home or in the car alone. What am I supposed to do in the situation?

From a legal standpoint, I have no idea, but from a liberty standpoint, I would say a business owner has complete autonomy regarding how they decide to run their business.  If they make rules to only allow one patron at a time, then they have every right to do so.

But yeah, that can create difficult situations in some circumstances.  I would think though that if you were a single dad with a 4 year old and had a chance to speak to the store manager about your situation, I would imagine that most businesses would be willing to work with you.  After all they want to make money and keep their customers happy so they will return later.

I suspect they would as well. I personally prefer the signage as the local grocery store that requests you come in with only one person in your party and request you wear a mask, but doesn't require it. There are many reasons why either of these things may not be feasible for some people. To demand it seems a little harsh to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 09:49:04 AM

In the last 5 days my town went from 10, to 24, to 32, to 43 confirmed cases... now obviously some of those have recovered and unfortunately at least one of them has died... but that still frightens me. Although the city of Champaign has multiple zip codes, our town (one zip code) has more cases than any of them. This town only has 13,000 people, Champaign has over 80,000. Now Gov. Pritzker has unveiled a 4-phase plan to re-open Illinois, split up into 4 regions... and we're one of the regions that was already pretty lax and now it's gonna get worse.

My boss mocked me for wearing a mask and going to the emergency room and never asked me if I was okay, only complained about the cost of visits (he literally compared it to a headache: "if something's wrong with me, I just go to work and take some Advil, if I have a headache I just work through it"). So I guess our health insurance is just for show or something. I'll remember that in a few years when he has pains and finally has to go see a doctor because he's too embarrassed to hear a doctor tell him he's overweight. I'll definitely remember that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on May 06, 2020, 09:51:18 AM

Wearing a mask is to keep others safe.  I don't know what is unreasonable about it.

Abiding by the speed limit, wearing a seat belt, and driving on the right side of the road in the US aren't in the Constitution.  Do they infringe on anyone's 'rights'?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 09:53:45 AM

I guess I'm just a big pussy is what it comes down to. (EDIT: I think DA's post was actually a response to lordxizor, sorry!  :lol)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 06, 2020, 09:55:30 AM

No, you're braver than the guy who's afraid to go to the hospital and more confident than the guy who's afraid to be seen wearing a mask

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 06, 2020, 09:56:56 AM

Kattelox, that's ridiculous.  I'm sure you already know that, but just wanted to say it anyway.  It's much better to be the person who goes to the ER thinking they're having a heart attack and find out they're not, than the person who assumes they're fine and dies from a heart attack. 

In healthcare there's a standard of going to the ER for what a "reasonable person" thinks is life or limb threatening.  You did it right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 06, 2020, 09:57:54 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 08:50:14 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 06, 2020, 08:45:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 06:40:35 AM

I'm curious what the legality is of stores barring groups of more than one coming into the store, or barring kids from coming in, or even wearing masks. Does a store really have the right to tell me I can't bring my kid in? Or go in together with my wife? Or demand that I wear a mask? Now, I haven't tried to get around the rules because I haven't needed to. It's possible no one would say anything.

I went to a hardware store the other day that said it wasn't letting in kids under 16. What if I was a single dad with a 4 year old, not old enough to stay home or in the car alone. What am I supposed to do in the situation?

From a legal standpoint, I have no idea, but from a liberty standpoint, I would say a business owner has complete autonomy regarding how they decide to run their business.  If they make rules to only allow one patron at a time, then they have every right to do so.

But yeah, that can create difficult situations in some circumstances.  I would think though that if you were a single dad with a 4 year old and had a chance to speak to the store manager about your situation, I would imagine that most businesses would be willing to work with you.  After all they want to make money and keep their customers happy so they will return later.

I suspect they would as well. I personally prefer the signage as the local grocery store that requests you come in with only one person in your party and request you wear a mask, but doesn't require it. There are many reasons why either of these things may not be feasible for some people. To demand it seems a little harsh to me.

Eh. If they required a specific type of mask, I'd agree, but it's well known that you can take a t-shirt and wrap it around your face. I feel like for anyone going to a store to buy things, you have an extra piece of cloth somewhere that can serve as a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 09:58:35 AM

Thanks ya'll. Money and toxic masculinity just matter more to some people than anything else, I guess

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 06, 2020, 10:04:17 AM

Wow, Katt.  Sorry you have to deal with that.  I'm not generally the type to lash out or "give 'em what they've got coming to 'em."  But if my boss behaved that way, I would have found it VERY difficult to not say something that would probably have gotten me fired.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 06, 2020, 10:16:49 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 06, 2020, 09:49:04 AM

In the last 5 days my town went from 10, to 24, to 32, to 43 confirmed cases... now obviously some of those have recovered and unfortunately at least one of them has died... but that still frightens me. Although the city of Champaign has multiple zip codes, our town (one zip code) has more cases than any of them. This town only has 13,000 people, Champaign has over 80,000. Now Gov. Pritzker has unveiled a 4-phase plan to re-open Illinois, split up into 4 regions... and we're one of the regions that was already pretty lax and now it's gonna get worse.

My boss mocked me for wearing a mask and going to the emergency room and never asked me if I was okay, only complained about the cost of visits (he literally compared it to a headache: "if something's wrong with me, I just go to work and take some Advil, if I have a headache I just work through it"). So I guess our health insurance is just for show or something. I'll remember that in a few years when he has pains and finally has to go see a doctor because he's too embarrassed to hear a doctor tell him he's overweight. I'll definitely remember that.

That's messed up!  Here you are having trouble breathing and he compares it to a headache?  I don't even know what to say to that.

But, how are you doing?  Are you getting any better?  And I think it's amazing you are still going to work considering how you are feeling, I don't think I could have done that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 10:32:11 AM

Not to turn this into an all-about-Katt discussion (I'm slightly embarrassed it is to some extent) but I am doing better in some ways and worse in others which I'd rather not talk about. But as far as the illness goes, nighttime is very difficult, but during the day I feel normal as long as I keep up with the Tylenol. Last night was nightmarish and I took 3 hot showers throughout the night, but I think that's due to some other personal struggle as opposed to the pleurisy. I don't really get 'sick days' because my boss will get mad at me even if I'm legitimately sick. But, bosk, if you'd like to live vicariously through me, I did let him have a piece of my mind and would have probably been fired if it were anybody else or if I had not been working here for 12 years

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 06, 2020, 10:38:51 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 06, 2020, 10:32:11 AM

Not to turn this into an all-about-Katt discussion (I'm slightly embarrassed it is to some extent) but I am doing better in some ways and worse in others which I'd rather not talk about. But as far as the illness goes, nighttime is very difficult, but during the day I feel normal as long as I keep up with the Tylenol. Last night was nightmarish and I took 3 hot showers throughout the night, but I think that's due to some other personal struggle as opposed to the pleurisy. I don't really get 'sick days' because my boss will get mad at me even if I'm legitimately sick. But, bosk, if you'd like to live vicariously through me, I did let him have a piece of my mind and would have probably been fired if it were anybody else or if I had not been working here for 12 years

Hmm. Have you considered taking an Advil and powering through like a man?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 10:42:10 AM

I thought about that until I went motherfucking psychosane

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 06, 2020, 10:46:56 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 06, 2020, 10:42:10 AM

I thought about that until I went motherfucking psychosane

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 06, 2020, 10:58:56 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on May 06, 2020, 09:51:18 AM

Wearing a mask is to keep others safe.  I don't know what is unreasonable about it.

Abiding by the speed limit, wearing a seat belt, and driving on the right side of the road in the US aren't in the Constitution.  Do they infringe on anyone's 'rights'?

Don't get me started; those a-holes that drive in the left lane and don't move over ABSOLUTELY infringe on my Constitutional rights.  Every single one of them at least once, and the first, third, seventh and ninth Amendments, twice!!!   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 06, 2020, 11:01:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 06, 2020, 09:58:35 AM

Thanks ya'll. Money and toxic masculinity just matter more to some people than anything else, I guess

I'd tell them that the deductable on the visit is gonna cost them a lot less than the death benefits and the lawsuit payout if you DON'T go.   And you know full well if you gave them COVID-19 they'd be bitchin' and whinin' too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 11:25:30 AM

I've been zoning out of the corona talk lately so not really following much, but sorry Kat, hope you start feeling better soon.

But I stopped in because during my weekly one on one with my boss, he updated me saying the company is looking into getting everyone anti-body tested at some point to see who can return to work.  They aren't rushing people back or anything, they want us all to stay home through the summer, but I'm pretty happy to see them wanting to go this direction as I've felt doing the anti-body test is the best way of figuring out our future of being around people again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 11:57:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

I can't predict the future but at this point testing positive for antibodies doesn't even mean all that much.  We don't know a) are the tests accurate? (Many indications of false positives right now.) b) does having antibodies mean you can't catch covid again? c) if we do have some immunity based on a positive test how long are we protected?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 11:57:54 AM

Our kids can’t go to school without certain vaccination records

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:00:45 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 11:57:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

I can't predict the future but at this point testing positive for antibodies doesn't even mean all that much.  We don't know a) are the tests accurate? (Many indications of false positives right now.) b) does having antibodies mean you can't catch covid again? c) if we do have some immunity based on a positive test how long are we protected?

Very true. But some seem to be hanging their hat on antibody testing being the answer to opening things back up.

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 11:57:54 AM

Our kids can’t go to school without certain vaccination records

That's a little different than certifying that you've caught and fought off a virus at some point in the past.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 12:05:01 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

Hah... having just started playing The Last of Us, that's eerily similar to exactly what the main character does in the beginning of the game. Hands police some papers showing his business or state of health or whatever as he's trying to cross the city. Yikes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 12:19:23 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:00:45 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 11:57:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

I can't predict the future but at this point testing positive for antibodies doesn't even mean all that much.  We don't know a) are the tests accurate? (Many indications of false positives right now.) b) does having antibodies mean you can't catch covid again? c) if we do have some immunity based on a positive test how long are we protected?

Very true. But some seem to be hanging their hat on antibody testing being the answer to opening things back up.

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 11:57:54 AM

Our kids can’t go to school without certain vaccination records

That's a little different than certifying that you've caught and fought off a virus at some point in the past.

Honest question, how is it different?  Not saying it isn’t... just curious how you see it as different.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 12:24:51 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 11:57:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

I can't predict the future but at this point testing positive for antibodies doesn't even mean all that much.  We don't know a) are the tests accurate? (Many indications of false positives right now.) b) does having antibodies mean you can't catch covid again? c) if we do have some immunity based on a positive test how long are we protected?

I'm not sure why you come to this conclusion when everyone of the scientists on CNN say that antibodies are useful and that they are even injecting them to some success onto current patients from recovered patients.  Of course we don't know how useful they are, but to say it doesn't mean much seems incorrect.  We know they mean something, just not sure how much which is much better than nothing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:32:19 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 12:19:23 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:00:45 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 11:57:54 AM

Our kids can’t go to school without certain vaccination records

That's a little different than certifying that you've caught and fought off a virus at some point in the past.

Honest question, how is it different?  Not saying it isn’t... just curious how you see it as different.

Do you really need me to explain how getting a vaccine is different from catching a virus?  :huh:

If we're going to somehow allow people to do some things but not other things based on whether they have anti-bodies, you're essentially encouraging people to catch Covid on purpose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 12:32:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 12:24:51 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 11:57:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

I can't predict the future but at this point testing positive for antibodies doesn't even mean all that much.  We don't know a) are the tests accurate? (Many indications of false positives right now.) b) does having antibodies mean you can't catch covid again? c) if we do have some immunity based on a positive test how long are we protected?

I'm not sure why you come to this conclusion when everyone of the scientists on CNN say that antibodies are useful and that they are even injecting them to some success onto current patients from recovered patients.  Of course we don't know how useful they are, but to say it doesn't mean much seems incorrect.  We know they mean something, just not sure how much which is much better than nothing.

They are useful in that they will tell us if a person has ever been exposed to covid.  That gives us better statistics on prevalence and spread.  But if you hear of some reputable scientist person, preferably an epidemiologist, saying that they know that antibodies are protective against reinfection or that we know how long a person can remain immune then please post it!  I'd love to have that information.  Honestly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 12:39:42 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 12:32:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 12:24:51 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 11:57:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

I really hope we don't get to a point where we're required to produce paperwork certifying that we carry antibodies for Covid in order to go places.

I can't predict the future but at this point testing positive for antibodies doesn't even mean all that much.  We don't know a) are the tests accurate? (Many indications of false positives right now.) b) does having antibodies mean you can't catch covid again? c) if we do have some immunity based on a positive test how long are we protected?

I'm not sure why you come to this conclusion when everyone of the scientists on CNN say that antibodies are useful and that they are even injecting them to some success onto current patients from recovered patients.  Of course we don't know how useful they are, but to say it doesn't mean much seems incorrect.  We know they mean something, just not sure how much which is much better than nothing.

They are useful in that they will tell us if a person has ever been exposed to covid.  That gives us better statistics on prevalence and spread.  But if you hear of some reputable scientist person, preferably an epidemiologist, saying that they know that antibodies are protective against reinfection or that we know how long a person can remain immune then please post it!  I'd love to have that information.  Honestly.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/can-you-catch-coronavirus-twice-172623492.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/can-you-catch-coronavirus-twice-172623492.html) - doesn't mention anti-bodies just says all the cases of people getting reinfected were incorrect and that there is no evidence of re-infection actually happening.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-04/scientists-create-antibody-that-defeats-coronavirus-in-lab (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-04/scientists-create-antibody-that-defeats-coronavirus-in-lab) - scientists creating anti-bodies in labs that seem to work there, no evidence they work in humans yet.

I'm sure you can find more, these were ones I had off hand from discussions with my friends, but I've been watching a lot of CNN while working out and they non stop talk about the importance of anti-bodies and while they don't know how effective they are, Gupta and Fauci both seems pretty confident they are beneficial on some level as historically the case for any virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 12:46:33 PM

But in the body of just that first link is the part that I'm talking about: 

Quote

Van Kerkhove said that it’s still not clear whether people can be reinfected with coronavirus.

“That is a very important question. When someone is infectious they develop anti-bodies and they develop part of an immune response one to two to three weeks after infection.

"Does this mean they have immunity? Does it mean they have a strong protection against reinfection and if so how long does that last?
"We do not have the answer to that yet."

So with regard to an employer or some government entity requesting people verify their antibody status, I'm saying that until we know more about what having a positive antibody test means (as far as whether or not immunity is 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 10 years and so on) it isn't very useful at this point in time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 06, 2020, 01:02:03 PM

This is probably more than anyone wants to know but there is a lot of good info here:  https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/qa-on-covid-19-antibody-tests/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 01:03:26 PM

nothing is known about this virus so thats not surprising, but the point keeps coming back to the science behind how our bodies react to ANY virus.  So assuming it's the same, there is almost a 100% chance there is some benefit, we just don't know how much.  It's still way better than not being useful.  Considering everything we do know, IMO, it's THE MOST useful thing we can fall on, our own immune system fighting back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 01:04:49 PM

I think reading all these various articles with conflicting information only serves to heighten one's anxiety. At least, that's what it does to me, so I'm not reading any of these. I'll leave it to the actual scientists to research and verify these things instead of leaving it to my normie brain to interpret and worry about. Especially as new information is constantly coming out. Wash your hands, wear a mask, avoid crowds, watch Netflix. Where's my chamomile tea?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 01:15:57 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:32:19 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 12:19:23 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:00:45 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 11:57:54 AM

Our kids can’t go to school without certain vaccination records

That's a little different than certifying that you've caught and fought off a virus at some point in the past.

Honest question, how is it different?  Not saying it isn’t... just curious how you see it as different.

Do you really need me to explain how getting a vaccine is different from catching a virus?  :huh:

If we're going to somehow allow people to do some things but not other things based on whether they have anti-bodies, you're essentially encouraging people to catch Covid on purpose.

That isn’t what i said.  I asked how the certification is different. And how different it’s purpose is. It was an honest and legitimate question.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 06, 2020, 01:29:52 PM

If you get vaccinated for something, you are now considered immune to it.  The cerficate virtually guarantees that you are safe from it, and also will not infect anyone else.

If you are tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies, all that means is that you've been exposed to it and your body responded.  Because there is no hard evidence whether or not this prevents reinfection, this is no guarantee that you are immune to it, thus there is no guarantee that you will not infect anyone else.  You could even still have it now.  A certificate stating that you have the antibodies is useless.  It guarantees nothing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 06, 2020, 01:32:32 PM

^Not exactly, but close enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 01:37:45 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 01:15:57 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:32:19 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 12:19:23 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 12:00:45 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on May 06, 2020, 11:57:54 AM

Our kids can’t go to school without certain vaccination records

That's a little different than certifying that you've caught and fought off a virus at some point in the past.

Honest question, how is it different?  Not saying it isn’t... just curious how you see it as different.

Do you really need me to explain how getting a vaccine is different from catching a virus?  :huh:

If we're going to somehow allow people to do some things but not other things based on whether they have anti-bodies, you're essentially encouraging people to catch Covid on purpose.

That isn’t what i said.  I asked how the certification is different. And how different it’s purpose is. It was an honest and legitimate question.

Sorry, misunderstood. Looks like it was answered fairly well above.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 01:40:55 PM

I believe someone asked it a couple pages back and I don't think it was ever answered. Vaccines give you antibodies that make you immune to a disease (or close enough for this discussion). If the antibodies you get naturally from having the disease don't make you immune to it, why would the vaccine's? Doesn't it come down to the same issue or whether the antibodies make you immune or not?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 02:00:17 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 06, 2020, 01:40:55 PM

I believe someone asked it a couple pages back and I don't think it was ever answered. Vaccines give you antibodies that make you immune to a disease (or close enough for this discussion). If the antibodies you get naturally from having the disease don't make you immune to it, why would the vaccine's? Doesn't it come down to the same issue or whether the antibodies make you immune or not?

They talked about this on CNN, Gupta was saying there are different types of vaccines.  They don't actually give you antibodies but they give you some part of the virus to let your body naturally build antibodies.  Usually a part of the virus that won't infect you, but another type of vaccine will give you a small bit of the virus to infect and get antibodies that way.  It's definitely more science than I know, but everything I see and read about say having anti-bodies is the best way to be protected from the virus, besides the basics of washing hands/social distancing, but as also mentioned, we just don't know enough yet to say anything as a fact here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 06, 2020, 02:10:20 PM

The vaccines contain inactive or "dead" virus, sometimes synthesized.  They're meant to fool your body into generating the appropriate antibodies to fight off an attack by the actual virus.  With flu shots, however, they typically create a vaccine for the top three strains they think will be around this year.  A flu shot won't protect you against a strain they wasn't included in the vaccine formula.  And coronaviruses in general tend to mutate.

There is growing evidence that there are different strains of COVID-19.  This makes perfect sense, as we've seen it have greatly varying effects on people, from literally no symptoms to death.  You don't get more variation than that.  This means that the new vaccine being developed by Pfizer, while definitely good news, is not a panacea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 06, 2020, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 06, 2020, 01:04:49 PM

I think reading all these various articles with conflicting information only serves to heighten one's anxiety. At least, that's what it does to me, so I'm not reading any of these. I'll leave it to the actual scientists to research and verify these things instead of leaving it to my normie brain to interpret and worry about. Especially as new information is constantly coming out. Wash your hands, wear a mask, avoid crowds, and listen to Katatonia. Where's my chamomile tea?

I think this sounds like an *excellent* approach.  :angel:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 06, 2020, 02:17:11 PM

Quote from: Orbert on May 06, 2020, 02:10:20 PM

There is growing evidence that there are different strains of COVID-19. 

Yes, but...

Quote from: Orbert on May 06, 2020, 02:10:20 PM

This makes perfect sense, as we've seen it have greatly varying effects on people, from literally no symptoms to death.  You don't get more variation than that. 

This does not follow from the first part of your quote.  What you are talking about how is the varied effects in which the virus impact individual people, which may or may not have anything to do with there being different strains.  Even if there was only one strain, people could (and likely would) have a wide range of effects, varying from being asymptomatic to dying.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 02:22:49 PM

Agree bosk, different strains may or may not be the reason for varying symptoms and the extremes.  I don't think I've found a science article that shows this, but reading on reddit (I know, not really reliable) it seems the dosage of the virus is what dictates how bad your symptoms are.  Too much at once and it will overwhelm your body which is why a lot of people on the front lines are struggling once they get the virus, even younger relatively healthy people can get really sick if they are exposed to a large dosage of the virus.  Whereas maybe someone who got it through opening a contaminated box may be asymptomatic.  Like I said, no proof on that idea, but it makes sense to me so take it as a grain of salt and just an idea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 06, 2020, 02:54:54 PM

Quote from: Lethean on May 06, 2020, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 06, 2020, 01:04:49 PM

I think reading all these various articles with conflicting information only serves to heighten one's anxiety. At least, that's what it does to me, so I'm not reading any of these. I'll leave it to the actual scientists to research and verify these things instead of leaving it to my normie brain to interpret and worry about. Especially as new information is constantly coming out. Wash your hands, wear a mask, avoid crowds, and listen to Katatonia. Where's my chamomile tea?

I think this sounds like an *excellent* approach.  :angel:

Oh you...  :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 06, 2020, 04:01:22 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 06, 2020, 02:17:11 PM

Quote from: Orbert on May 06, 2020, 02:10:20 PM

There is growing evidence that there are different strains of COVID-19. 

Yes, but...

Quote from: Orbert on May 06, 2020, 02:10:20 PM

This makes perfect sense, as we've seen it have greatly varying effects on people, from literally no symptoms to death.  You don't get more variation than that. 

This does not follow from the first part of your quote.  What you are talking about how is the varied effects in which the virus impact individual people, which may or may not have anything to do with there being different strains.  Even if there was only one strain, people could (and likely would) have a wide range of effects, varying from being asymptomatic to dying.

Yeah, I hadn't really thought it through.  There's no direct connection, but the two statements are (as far as I know) true.  The second for sure, and I'm pretty sure I've seen articles saying there could be multiple strains.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 06, 2020, 04:20:59 PM

Correct.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 06:24:41 PM

Saw this just now

https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html)

Part of me thinks those people are lying about actually being out and about, but if its true, it definitely makes me wonder about how this virus really may be out there and spreading more than we realize. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 06, 2020, 07:19:20 PM

They been talking about that all evening in the news and I also believe people are lying or they aren’t really asking the correct question. Just because you are unemployed or working remotely doesn’t mean you’re staying home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 06, 2020, 11:12:33 PM

Ugh

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 07, 2020, 05:35:43 AM

Over 40 cases in my town come from the pork plant... I'm going to start questioning people who walk in or call if they've been in contact with anyone who works or has been there before they come in whether my boss likes it or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 07, 2020, 06:18:47 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 06:24:41 PM

Saw this just now

https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html)

Part of me thinks those people are lying about actually being out and about, but if its true, it definitely makes me wonder about how this virus really may be out there and spreading more than we realize.

Easter was also a few weeks ago and I know in the Chicago suburbs, a lot of families still had gatherings as opposed to celebrating more distantly.  A lot of people were noting that homes around them had more cars in the driveway than usual.  So we could be seeing some growth due to people getting together for the holiday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 07, 2020, 06:30:21 AM

Don't know about everyone else but it feels like this will never end. The continual overload of bad news, dire warnings/projections and political fighting, coupled with millions of people unemployed and worried about their future, can be overwhelming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 07, 2020, 06:33:31 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 07, 2020, 06:30:21 AM

Don't know about everyone else but it feels like this will never end. The continual overload of bad news, dire warnings/projections and political fighting, coupled with millions of people unemployed and worried about their future, can be overwhelming.

I've stopped paying attention to the news, and try to avoid what I can on social media, where people continually push their own opinions as fact.  It helps to just focus on my job, family and entertainment and let my state's governor do his thing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 07, 2020, 06:41:03 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 07, 2020, 06:30:21 AM

Don't know about everyone else but it feels like this will never end. The continual overload of bad news, dire warnings/projections and political fighting, coupled with millions of people unemployed and worried about their future, can be overwhelming.

Yep, I know how you feel. Keep in mind that the media is always going to try and push the negative news. Cases and deaths are way lower than many of the early projections. Granted, the stay-at-home stuff has helped, but it's far more than that. Everyone shouts the doom and gloom at the top of their lungs because it gets people to listen. Things are rough right now, but it's not as bad as most thought it would be and things are looking up. We're in for a long stretch of weirdness, but history shows us that pandemics end eventually and this one will be no different.

For me personally, I'm trying to look on the bright side. Working from home has been mostly enjoyable and I'm hoping it will last through the summer. Financially we're sitting pretty good due to our tax return, stimulus money, and the unemployment my wife is getting since her business has basically gone completely dormant. The weather is getting nicer everyday so we can be outside often, and I've even been working out on the patio frequently.

But, yeah, there's always a cloud just around the corner. I forget about it sometimes until I have to run out to the store to get something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on May 07, 2020, 07:23:59 AM

The number of infected people in Russia is still growing (I believe we're in Top 5 by the number of cases now) however some factories and businesses will be reopened come next Tuesday. Was just told we're no longer allowed to work from home and required to come to our working place.

Man, do I look forward to spend 3 hours in public transport each day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 07, 2020, 07:29:18 AM

Quote from: Evermind on May 07, 2020, 07:23:59 AM

Man, do I look forward to spend 3 hours in public transport each day.

Easily my biggest fear heading back to work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 07, 2020, 07:41:01 AM

Mask and gloves and you should be ok. I did that for three weeks before coming back home to work (and I didn't even use the mask). I will never know if that literally saved my life (never touching stuff on the subway and often washing hands) or simply the virus wasn't spread enough to be a menace.

But I get the feeling of unease, I hope I'll keep on working for home for as long as possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on May 07, 2020, 08:25:33 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 07, 2020, 07:41:01 AM

Mask and gloves and you should be ok. I did that for three weeks before coming back home to work (and I didn't even use the mask). I will never know if that literally saved my life (never touching stuff on the subway and often washing hands) or simply the virus wasn't spread enough to be a menace.

Yeah, these are mandatory for us come next Tuesday. Thinking positive, at least I'll be able to hit a decent grocery store on my way back from work as opposed to going to the shitty grocery store that's nearby.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2020, 09:20:34 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 06:24:41 PM

Saw this just now

https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html)

Part of me thinks those people are lying about actually being out and about, but if its true, it definitely makes me wonder about how this virus really may be out there and spreading more than we realize.

I'm not coming after you, just responding to the article itself; those articles drive me crazy.  "Shocking"?  Shocking to who?  It's almost meaningless without some insight and granularity into what these words mean and how.  Certain interpretations of that article lead to the inevitable question of "why then the quarantine?"; other interpretations of that article lead to the alternate question "quarantine is not enough?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on May 07, 2020, 09:27:59 AM

Quote from: Evermind on May 07, 2020, 07:23:59 AM

The number of infected people in Russia is still growing (I believe we're in Top 5 by the number of cases now) however some factories and businesses will be reopened come next Tuesday. Was just told we're no longer allowed to work from home and required to come to our working place.

Man, do I look forward to spend 3 hours in public transport each day.

Yes, the commute does suck even if you do not drive.  I too spend about 2.5 hours on a bus each day going to work and coming home from work.  I dread going back to the office, mainly because of the time lost each day commuting and the office politics.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 07, 2020, 09:49:13 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2020, 09:20:34 AM

I'm not coming after you, just responding to the article itself; those articles drive me crazy.  "Shocking"?  Shocking to who? 

Yeah....I know we've discussed this somewhere but the media today is insane with the way they headline these articles.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2020, 10:13:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2020, 09:20:34 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 06, 2020, 06:24:41 PM

Saw this just now

https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/shocking-two-thirds-patients-recently-200545019.html)

Part of me thinks those people are lying about actually being out and about, but if its true, it definitely makes me wonder about how this virus really may be out there and spreading more than we realize.

I'm not coming after you, just responding to the article itself; those articles drive me crazy.  "Shocking"?  Shocking to who?  It's almost meaningless without some insight and granularity into what these words mean and how.  Certain interpretations of that article lead to the inevitable question of "why then the quarantine?"; other interpretations of that article lead to the alternate question "quarantine is not enough?"

Yea I agree with you, not a fan of the "shocking" title at all, but I believe it's because Cuomo used that term and that's why it's quoted, but still.  That type of article with it's clickbait title just leads to more questions and less actual information, and in this case, it's information I'm not even sure I can believe it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 07, 2020, 12:21:26 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 07, 2020, 07:41:01 AM

Mask and gloves and you should be ok. I did that for three weeks before coming back home to work (and I didn't even use the mask). I will never know if that literally saved my life (never touching stuff on the subway and often washing hands) or simply the virus wasn't spread enough to be a menace.

But I get the feeling of unease, I hope I'll keep on working for home for as long as possible.

I'm still not close to being sold on the efficacy of gloves, especially based on how the general public uses them as a cure all for manual contact. I am trained in proper glove usage, not as much as someone in the health field, but I still have to use them daily in my work and have had enough training to know that a glove will carry contaminants as well as, if not better than, human skin, yet peeps seem to think they're invincible with them (or they're assholes and just disposed of them at their car door).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 07, 2020, 12:28:47 PM

Gloves, without proper training, are likely doing nothing.

I'll give an example from my work life. I work in the medical device industry and we regularly test the number of bacteria and fungi (called bioburden) on medical devices. At one company I worked at, gloves were not required in the manufacturing area. They decided to experiment with having the manufacturing staff wear gloves in order to lower the bioburden. What they found was that the bioburden actually increased with the use of gloves. The reason? The staff was more careless when they had gloves on. They were much more likely to touch their face, other surfaces, etc with gloves on. These were people properly trained in how to put on and take off gloves and they had the exact opposite effect.

Given that the vast majority of people are not properly trained, likely are wearing the gloves for too long or reusing them, and the fact that I've seen tons of them laying on the ground outside of stores, I would not recommend wearing gloves if I were in any position to influence.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 07, 2020, 12:36:27 PM

I'm gonna wear gloves when I go to the grocery store 'cause it makes me feel better and putting them on for that one trip makes logical sense to me. Better than touching with your bare hands. Never know how many fingers have touched that item, how many people pick their nose or scratch their balls or cough directly on their hands... etc.

It's also just calming for someone with anxiety like myself, or the store workers, I dunno, it's a kind gesture.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 12:38:15 PM

I usually wear gloves at the store, but also recognize the benefits may be slim. If anything I want to show the employees that I am trying to respect shopping in their store.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ich bin besser on May 07, 2020, 12:58:02 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 07, 2020, 12:28:47 PM

Gloves, without proper training, are likely doing nothing.

I'll give an example from my work life. I work in the medical device industry and we regularly test the number of bacteria and fungi (called bioburden) on medical devices. At one company I worked at, gloves were not required in the manufacturing area. They decided to experiment with having the manufacturing staff wear gloves in order to lower the bioburden. What they found was that the bioburden actually increased with the use of gloves. The reason? The staff was more careless when they had gloves on. They were much more likely to touch their face, other surfaces, etc with gloves on. These were people properly trained in how to put on and take off gloves and they had the exact opposite effect.

Given that the vast majority of people are not properly trained, likely are wearing the gloves for too long or reusing them, and the fact that I've seen tons of them laying on the ground outside of stores, I would not recommend wearing gloves if I were in any position to influence.

That. Exactly.
Gloves do improve nothing.
 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 07, 2020, 01:00:58 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 07, 2020, 12:21:26 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 07, 2020, 07:41:01 AM

Mask and gloves and you should be ok. I did that for three weeks before coming back home to work (and I didn't even use the mask). I will never know if that literally saved my life (never touching stuff on the subway and often washing hands) or simply the virus wasn't spread enough to be a menace.

But I get the feeling of unease, I hope I'll keep on working for home for as long as possible.

I'm still not close to being sold on the efficacy of gloves, especially based on how the general public uses them as a cure all for manual contact. I am trained in proper glove usage, not as much as someone in the health field, but I still have to use them daily in my work and have had enough training to know that a glove will carry contaminants as well as, if not better than, human skin, yet peeps seem to think they're invincible with them (or they're assholes and just disposed of them at their car door).

I read a cool study a while back about gloves in the food industry. Turns out that people with gloves on often had dirtier hands than those that prepped without them. People with the gloves feel a false sense of confidence in how sanitary they're being, whereas the gloveless preps are fully aware at all times what's on their hands and they wash them much more frequently.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2020, 01:07:32 PM

I don't wear gloves, I have no studies but I feel like they are useless.  Just wash your hands after being outside your safe zone and with the mask on, you're already not touching yourface so I feel like my hands are fine as long as I wash them or sanitize them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 07, 2020, 01:11:05 PM

I will push back gently on the "gloves do nothing" POV.  When I wear them, I do not touch my face, my glasses, my mask, anything.  What gets me shaking my head are people wearing gloves and tapping away on their phones at the store.  I haven't taken my phone even inside a store for about 2 months now.

Knowing how to properly take off dirty gloves is an important thing to know how to do. 

I also don't get it when people wear masks when they are driving alone in their cars.  Unless it is a borrowed car or a rental, I don't get it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ich bin besser on May 07, 2020, 01:16:09 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2020, 01:11:05 PM

I also don't get it when people wear masks when they are driving alone in their cars.  Unless it is a borrowed car or a rental, I don't get it.

And this. It's even forbidden here in Germany in case the mask covers most of your face (which is usually does).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 07, 2020, 01:22:00 PM

I am allowed to work at the hospital again, but max 24 hours and I can only pick one of the buildings per day, so I really have to plan ahead well. Based on surface measurements each room has a max amount of persons. So even offices and break rooms now have digital agendas. And I have to log every room I use, for how long and for what reason. It is a hassle, but it being a large hospital I am offcourse 100% aboard with the very strict rules, ensuring patient safety is absolute priority.

As for my commute, I now must go by bike instead of public transport. Takes me around 2 hours a day. But after sitting nearly two months at home I welcome this change for the sake of my health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 07, 2020, 01:25:13 PM

Y'know, ya'll, gloves don't magically make you safer. It's not that gloves "don't work." It's how you use them and how often you change them. They don't just suddenly make you safer because you slapped them on. Like, yeah, maybe people act more confidently with them on, but that isn't the gloves' fault, it's human psychology at work.

I keep the mask on my face when I'm driving cause it only takes a couple minutes to get places and I don't want to adjust it (but for that matter, mind ya business, it ain't hurting you ;) )

Next we're gonna hear that masks are useless 'cause people aren't changing them that often. Well, okay, sure. But they work. :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2020, 01:54:02 PM

I'm at an advantage here, having been trained in all four levels of personal protective equipment from having worked in the environmental field.  But it's still SO easy to be lazy with gloves.   Generally, I use them only for transitions, meaning, I won't wear them while driving, but will put them on going into the store, then discard them on the way back to the car.   I have plenty, because I keep a box in the garage for working on the car.   I also have work gloves that I keep in my truck and I'll wear them, but for me, that's asking for trouble, since I don't typically wash them or throw them away. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2020, 02:01:32 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 07, 2020, 01:25:13 PM

Next we're gonna hear that masks are useless 'cause people aren't changing them that often. Well, okay, sure. But they work. :P

Considering my sister sent me some conspiracy theory video that is saying wearing a mask will give you coronavirus... I dont think that is far fetched.

But yea it's not just the gloves, or the mask, a lot of it is how you use it.  I feel for me, I'm not going to end up making a good enough use of the gloves to make it worth the effort over just washing my hand.  And it does allow me to continue to use my phone (I keep my grocery list on my phone for example while shopping) and then I sanitize my phone after I clean up myself when I'm done being in the public.    I'm not going to act like I know the best method or anything or am some master of the mask and gloves, I'm just using some common sense really. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 07, 2020, 02:55:52 PM

A Message To The Mainstream Media (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOVy3weAtqw)

I have no words...   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 07, 2020, 02:59:32 PM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 07, 2020, 02:55:52 PM

A Message To The Mainstream Media (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOVy3weAtqw)

I have no words...   :facepalm:

Wow, Austria is a weird country.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 07, 2020, 03:12:48 PM

So.... isn't there a way to bring back around the asteroid that just flew by us? it's gone? anybody at Nasa know when the next one is due?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 07, 2020, 03:52:16 PM

I don't get wearing a mask in the car. Depending on the type of mask, it can actually reduce the amount of oxygen you're taking in. Even the thin disposable ones supposedly reduce it by about 1%. I've heard of at least one person who passed out and crashed his car due to wearing a mask. I suspect it was a very thick homemade one, but I don't know for sure.

I chuckle at my neighbor who puts on a mask to go in his own yard, even just to walk to the shed and back. Nobody within 100 feet of him and fences around most of his yard. I guess if it makes him feel safer, whatever, but it's kind of amusing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 07, 2020, 04:07:59 PM

I just think it's cool that we can go to the bank, the airport, or a federal building dressed like we're about to meet up with our posse and rob the next stagecoach that comes by.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2020, 04:15:25 PM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 07, 2020, 02:55:52 PM

A Message To The Mainstream Media (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOVy3weAtqw)

I have no words...   :facepalm:

Neither do they; I love how they start all serious: "This is what we think about your neuro-lingual..." then there's a pause, as their brain tries to catch up to their anger and rage... then they catch gear again...  "programming..." then there's another pause as the brain skips again (or their lighter doesn't light) and then they bail on the whole thing and jump right to the meat of the argument with "BULLSHIT!"  <BEGIN VIOLENCE!>

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2020, 04:16:22 PM

Best thing about masks? My breath hasn't been this good in years.  Put a mask on after a cup of coffee and you'll see what I mean. ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 07, 2020, 04:36:19 PM

Quote from: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on May 07, 2020, 02:55:52 PM

A Message To The Mainstream Media (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOVy3weAtqw)

I have no words...   :facepalm:

Wow.  Such bravery.  I'm looking forward to the documentaries that will be made about their heroic lives in the months to come.   :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2020, 04:58:20 PM

 :lol just watched that video and at least it was entertaining, but maybe because I enjoy breaking stuff, reminded me of my own video of taking a sledgehammer to a macbook  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EavnvAfPhdQ) but there was no deeper meaning to it

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 05:05:50 PM

(https://media.giphy.com/media/RhEvCHIeZAZ6E/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 07, 2020, 05:08:45 PM

Hey, one nice upside to social distancing.  We had a recording session at the church last night (only five of us, so it was legal) and we were good, we stayed at least six feet apart from each other.  Which is good because I haven't showered in a week and I honestly don't remember the last time I bothered with deodorant.  I kinda forgot all about that stuff, and it wasn't until I was getting ready to leave that I realized I should probably at least change out of my sweats, put some jeans on or something.  Life of a homebound slob.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 05:16:04 PM

For the first 3-4 weeks of being homebound I showered in the evening, which I normally do since I have a hands-on, often dirty job. Then I started showering right after waking up, and I noticed my day felt different, somehow fresher, and I was more awake in the morning and alive during the day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 07, 2020, 06:16:19 PM

Quote from: Orbert on May 07, 2020, 05:08:45 PM

(only five of us, so it was legal)

G...giggity?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 07, 2020, 07:39:58 PM

Each locality sets its own rules, and in my town gatherings of more than five people are forbidden.  I hestitate to use the word "illegal" since I'm not sure if that's technically correct, and I don't want to add any legitimacy to it if it isn't.  Not that I'm against it.  You have to pick a number, officially set the limit, otherwise you can't enforce it (if you were so inclined).  So fine, more than five is bad, but exactly five is okay, and we were okay.  It was the first time making music with others in two months.  Felt good.  I ain't gonna feel bad about it.

 :yarr






 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 07, 2020, 08:17:20 PM

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 08, 2020, 07:09:33 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 05:16:04 PM

For the first 3-4 weeks of being homebound I showered in the evening, which I normally do since I have a hands-on, often dirty job. Then I started showering right after waking up, and I noticed my day felt different, somehow fresher, and I was more awake in the morning and alive during the day.

I've fallen into the routine of getting up, getting coffee, going to work, and actually showering late in the day (between 4 and 6) right before dinner.   It seems to be working, giving a little jolt before the family time, and making sure I'm not wearing out my welcome with the people that might be able to smell me or look at my hair.  I'm not a vain guy, but until my step daughter gave me a quick trim, I looked like that guy that has the illicit laboratory in his basement on Blacklist. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 08, 2020, 07:15:42 AM

I take anywhere from 2 to 3 hot/cold showers or baths a day depending on whether it's the cold or hot half of the year. It's the ultimate relaxation and it really does refresh the body and mind.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 08, 2020, 07:34:04 AM

My wife pointed out yesterday that my cheeks really look terrible.  I asked her what she meant by that.  She said they're all fuzzy.  Oh, I get it.  Because I haven't shaved in two months.  Maybe I'm just a horrible person, because I haven't bothered shaving because I don't go to work; no one will see me, so why bother?  She pointed out that she still has to deal with it, and I should want to look presentable for her.  Okay, I suck, because that never occurred to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 08, 2020, 07:34:57 AM

36 years on this planet, and I'm still not down with a COLD shower.  My showers are all degrees of warm.   If there is no hot water, I might rough it, but the odds are, unless I've really done something to require a shower, I'm doing a "sink level clean". 

Other than when I was 25 or so, I never have had ANY facial hair, and I can't really do the "three days of stubble" look; it doesn't look cool on me, it just looks like I'm three days closer to being homeless.   But I've gotten to the habit of shaving every five or six days or so, which has wrecked havoc on my skin.  So I've been trying to shave every other day, and as incentive, I've left a little on the front.  So depending on your age and your cultural awareness, I look like either a) the leather guy from the Village People, b) Rich Gossage, c) Joe Exotic.   No one, apparently, other than me thinks it's a look that should survive this COVID nonsense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 08, 2020, 07:43:51 AM

Looking for plausible explanations for this:

Why would the military say they are considering not allowing anyone who had Covid to enlist.

Is there something we don't know about this virus yet that they do? Seems very odd to me. I'm sure there is a logical explanation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 08, 2020, 07:46:37 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 08, 2020, 07:43:51 AM

Looking for plausible explanations for this:

Why would the military say they are considering not allowing anyone who had Covid to enlist.

Is there something we don't know about this virus yet that they do? Seems very odd to me. I'm sure there is a logical explanation.

Probably has something to do with not knowing enough about reinfection.

@Stadler: my hot water handle on my tub faucet crapped out last night; I imagine I just need to tighten something with a screwdriver but as much as I love cold showers, the thought of waking up to an ice cold shower was not very appealing. Lucky for me I live alone. All I could think of was that Seinfeld moment... "I WAS IN THE POOL!!"  :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 08, 2020, 08:01:44 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 08, 2020, 07:34:04 AM

My wife pointed out yesterday that my cheeks really look terrible.  I asked her what she meant by that.  She said they're all fuzzy.  Oh, I get it.  Because I haven't shaved in two months.  Maybe I'm just a horrible person, because I haven't bothered shaving because I don't go to work; no one will see me, so why bother?  She pointed out that she still has to deal with it, and I should want to look presentable for her.  Okay, I suck, because that never occurred to me.

 :lol, yeah there is something to that, however you could tell her that you've decided to go on a beard growing journey.  And two months is still in that "awkward" stage of growing a beard.  At around 4 months is when you will get a good idea of what it will look like.  Ask her if she is willing to let you go 2 more months and she can reevaluate it then.

I totally get pleasing the misses, but a beard is just something men need to do at some point in their lives, even if for nothing more than curiosity.

Also, if you are having itching problems, buy some beard oil.  That will solve it.

Probably more info than you wanted but growing a beard is kind of a passion of mine. :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 08, 2020, 08:03:39 AM

If you want to be fair, tell her she can grow hers out too!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 08:47:17 AM

My daughter and I decided that we'd not shave our legs for the duration.  She caved after a month.  I lasted until last weekend.  I'd never done that before.  I felt like a bag lady.  :laugh:

Oh the things we do to amuse ourselves in our boredom.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 08, 2020, 08:56:07 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 08, 2020, 08:01:44 AM

Also, if you are having itching problems, buy some beard oil.  That will solve it.

Probably more info than you wanted but growing a beard is kind of a passion of mine. :biggrin:

Not to derail the thread, but what do you do about ingrown hair?

I cannot go 3-4 days without shaving before my neck starts to itch, hurt and bother. I tried growing a beard over the holidays (lasted 2 months) and I couldn't handle it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 08, 2020, 08:57:59 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 08:47:17 AM

My daughter and I decided that we'd not shave our legs for the duration.  She caved after a month.  I lasted until last weekend.  I'd never done that before.  I felt like a bag lady.  :laugh:

Oh the things we do to amuse ourselves in our boredom.

pics or it didn't happen :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 08, 2020, 09:14:57 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on May 08, 2020, 08:56:07 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 08, 2020, 08:01:44 AM

Also, if you are having itching problems, buy some beard oil.  That will solve it.

Probably more info than you wanted but growing a beard is kind of a passion of mine. :biggrin:

Not to derail the thread, but what do you do about ingrown hair?

I cannot go 3-4 days without shaving before my neck starts to itch, hurt and bother. I tried growing a beard over the holidays (lasted 2 months) and I couldn't handle it.

That's a good quesion.  I don't have a large problem with ingrown hair, but the itching and redness are due to the tips of your hairs being sharp from shaving.  When looked at under a microscope, shaved hair ends look like mini spears.  So when the hair starts to grow out it begins to curl (most beards tend to be curly).  when the hair ends then touch your face it's like a thousand tiny needles poking you all at once.  This is what causes the itching and redness.

Your have two options.  Wait it out and it will eventually go away once the hair is long enough, but this usually isn't an option for most men because it's rather unbearable, which you have experienced.  Or buy some beard oil.  This will soften the hair significantly and make it much less irritating to your skin as it grows out.  This will dramatically ruduce the itching and redness or eliminate it all together.

Beard oil is rather expensive though and the longer your beard is, the more you need to apply every day.  So I would highly advise to make your own, it's A LOT cheaper that way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 08, 2020, 10:38:24 AM

52 cases in town... almost all linked to the pork plant outside town. Most of those afflicted are, reportedly, Latino. I don't mean to sound callous but that makes me feel better because in this small town there are certain areas where certain people live and I don't live near where the Latino community lives. This at least makes me feel better that the cases are mostly isolated to the one plant, but not everybody who works there lives in town, and they're still having people come to work  :facepalm:

But, it really does make me feel better knowing where the cases are coming from. I'm just curious... why are pork plants (around the country) getting this virus? Is it coming from pigs? I don't get it. We have other factories in the industrial park, but they're not getting hit with it, just the pork plant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 08, 2020, 10:46:43 AM

I can't verify this, but I think the virus is transmitted between all mamals, so the pigs could transmit it to people and vise versa.  If this is true, then a plant like this in your town would be an idea enviornment to rapidly spread the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 08, 2020, 11:15:42 AM

Where I live, there is a ham processing plant and a turkey processing plant and both got hit hard. Their work force is comprised of mainly Hispanics and they live in cheap housing and usually in large numbers. I think it's a matter of the workers work in close proximity and it's quite possible that the owners or managers did not take the proper precautions (i.e. PDEs). There are plenty of people in this small town that think this virus is a hoax and that we've been overreacting.  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 08, 2020, 11:21:10 AM

I think it's probably a combination of the culture of the workers, tight working conditions, lack of PPE, and complacency due to the fact that meat processing plants tend to be in rural areas, which have fewer cases overall.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 08, 2020, 11:33:45 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 08, 2020, 11:15:42 AM

Where I live, there is a ham processing plant and a turkey processing plant and both got hit hard. Their work force is comprised of mainly Hispanics and they live in cheap housing and usually in large numbers. I think it's a matter of the workers work in close proximity and it's quite possible that the owners or managers did not take the proper precautions (i.e. PDEs). There are plenty of people in this small town that think this virus is a hoax and that we've been overreacting.  ::)

That is exactly, to a T, what is going on here, I'm pretty sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 08, 2020, 11:55:52 AM

Yeah, 120+ people tested positive at a Hormel plant not too far from me. They closed for 2 weeks and reopened. Doesn't help that POTUS signed an executive order to keep meat plants open. I saw a story yesterday or today that plant employees are starting to quit because they fear going back to work and getting the virus.

Found this that is tracking all the meat plants affected:

https://www.meatpoultry.com/articles/22993-covid-19-meat-plant-map

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

This may be TMI for some but I found it very useful and interesting as it pertains to re-opening.  I think some folks were talking before about viral load - and that is in here too.

I've seen the seating chart at the restaurant.  IIRC this was from China.  And the theory was the indoor heating system and lack of ventilation may have helped to spread the virus.  If a heating system can do this, I don't see how an AC unit would be any different.  Maybe others here know more about that.


The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR2c0flB4LApT2ySqMfyY7OdOUTUC0ntccdssVvbwVGFc9ngyhvH0fTIRLQ

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 08, 2020, 04:54:45 PM

Our County did a re-open but still has the expectation of social distancing and other precautions. So, I thought....maybe I'll run down to see about getting a hair cut. I pulled up and noticed it was VERY busy....put my gloves and mask on....got out and went to sign in. Every station had a person and hair dresser at it.....the people waiting were all outside the store....there were a couple guys checking out....a couple coming in to take their spots....etc etc. Bottom line is this place was packed.

Any guesses on how many people had a mask and/or gloves on? I'll make it easy. I was the only one in that salon with them on....including the folks outside. I noticed this all within 15-20 seconds so I just quickly turned around and left. I can deal with my hair getting long.

I would have thought that people would still be taking some precautions but I guess not?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 08, 2020, 04:58:08 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

This may be TMI for some

Not at all.  I found it very informative.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 08, 2020, 05:01:04 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 08, 2020, 04:54:45 PM

Our County did a re-open but still has the expectation of social distancing and other precautions. So, I thought....maybe I'll run down to see about getting a hair cut. I pulled up and noticed it was VERY busy....put my gloves and mask on....got out and went to sign in. Every station had a person and hair dresser at it.....the people waiting were all outside the store....there were a couple guys checking out....a couple coming in to take their spots....etc etc. Bottom line is this place was packed.

Any guesses on how many people had a mask and/or gloves on? I'll make it easy. I was the only one in that salon with them on....including the folks outside. I noticed this all within 15-20 seconds so I just quickly turned around and left. I can deal with my hair getting long.

I would have thought that people would still be taking some precautions but I guess not?

Having grown up not too far from where you live, it doesn’t surprise me at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 08, 2020, 08:44:40 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 08, 2020, 04:58:08 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

This may be TMI for some

Not at all.  I found it very informative.

Agreed.  And alarming / concerning.  Why our governments think that we're ready to ease restrictions absolutely baffles me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 08, 2020, 08:54:22 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR2c0flB4LApT2ySqMfyY7OdOUTUC0ntccdssVvbwVGFc9ngyhvH0fTIRLQ

UMASS Dartmouth is in my backyard. We toured there last fall with my son. I went to high school just up the street, and I used to use their library for my research papers. Even took a summer course there while I was in college.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 08, 2020, 09:20:32 PM

Oops posted in the wrong thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 09, 2020, 06:29:31 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 08, 2020, 08:44:40 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 08, 2020, 04:58:08 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

This may be TMI for some

Not at all.  I found it very informative.

Agreed.  And alarming / concerning.  Why our governments think that we're ready to ease restrictions absolutely baffles me.

We are not ready if you're looking at it from strictly a health perspective. If we were only concerned about health, we'd stay locked down until there wasn't a new case for at least a couple weeks. That would likely be many months more, which nobody wants.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 09, 2020, 09:14:41 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 08, 2020, 04:54:45 PM

Our County did a re-open but still has the expectation of social distancing and other precautions. So, I thought....maybe I'll run down to see about getting a hair cut. I pulled up and noticed it was VERY busy....put my gloves and mask on....got out and went to sign in. Every station had a person and hair dresser at it.....the people waiting were all outside the store....there were a couple guys checking out....a couple coming in to take their spots....etc etc. Bottom line is this place was packed.

Any guesses on how many people had a mask and/or gloves on? I'll make it easy. I was the only one in that salon with them on....including the folks outside. I noticed this all within 15-20 seconds so I just quickly turned around and left. I can deal with my hair getting long.

I would have thought that people would still be taking some precautions but I guess not?

I was listening to NPR's planet money podcast and they interviewed a barber shop owner from Georgia.  With all the precautions he's taking he can only do like 2 haircuts an hour.  It's appointment only,  people wait in their cars outside until someone goes out to check them in, they ask the standard questions (and maybe even check their temperature, I forget) once inside the customers wash their hands and they even time the 20 seconds, they can't touch anything while they're inside etc.   He said It's the hardest he's ever worked... for way less income

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 09, 2020, 10:10:49 AM

With regard to reopening, I imagined tightly controlled stages.  No mass gatherings in public at first, everybody masked up, everybody keeping social distance.  Not a return to normal, but people at least out and about, hopefully most people making some money, even if it's not at previous levels.  Then as time goes on, we see how this goes, maybe there will be a medical breakthrough or two to help us, hopefully the hospitals have some time to work through the huge overloads they're currently facing.  Maybe we can then loosen up a little more, see how that goes, etc.  That kind of thing.

Instead, there are areas that basically think it's fine to go back to last pre-COVID ways.  That is, back to normal.  Places crowded, people in line, no masks or gloves.  Beaches and parks open.  A single asymptomatic person in there somewhere sneezes, and 100 people could go home infected.  Seriously, people?  Not even basic precautions?  I know some people are stupid, but I would not expect such massed stupidity.

Our governor's five-phase plan for reopening Illinois, with Phase 5 being full recovery, is almost exactly as I imagined it, which either means that I have a good imagination or we're actually doing this logically.  We get it.  The economy will collapse if we stay completely shut down for too long, so there has to be some compromise.  But it has to be smart.  Test the waters before diving in, at least.

Personally, I'm still staying home as much as possible, masks and gloves when I do go out, and that's not changing until the numbers are way, way down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 09, 2020, 01:46:26 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/654rPYpk/FB-IMG-1589049887792.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3d704jp1)foreign teen girls (https://treetop100babynames.com/exotic-baby-names-girls-1)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on May 09, 2020, 01:50:30 PM

^
I'll assume that is one big EFF sharp :D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 09, 2020, 01:58:44 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 09, 2020, 09:14:41 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 08, 2020, 04:54:45 PM

Our County did a re-open but still has the expectation of social distancing and other precautions. So, I thought....maybe I'll run down to see about getting a hair cut. I pulled up and noticed it was VERY busy....put my gloves and mask on....got out and went to sign in. Every station had a person and hair dresser at it.....the people waiting were all outside the store....there were a couple guys checking out....a couple coming in to take their spots....etc etc. Bottom line is this place was packed.

Any guesses on how many people had a mask and/or gloves on? I'll make it easy. I was the only one in that salon with them on....including the folks outside. I noticed this all within 15-20 seconds so I just quickly turned around and left. I can deal with my hair getting long.

I would have thought that people would still be taking some precautions but I guess not?

I was listening to NPR's planet money podcast and they interviewed a barber shop owner from Georgia.  With all the precautions he's taking he can only do like 2 haircuts an hour.  It's appointment only,  people wait in their cars outside until someone goes out to check them in, they ask the standard questions (and maybe even check their temperature, I forget) once inside the customers wash their hands and they even time the 20 seconds, they can't touch anything while they're inside etc.   He said It's the hardest he's ever worked... for way less income

That’s the way to do it. But this was a free for all. Like nothing ever happened or there was nothing to worry about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 10, 2020, 06:16:48 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 08, 2020, 04:54:45 PM

Our County did a re-open but still has the expectation of social distancing and other precautions. So, I thought....maybe I'll run down to see about getting a hair cut. I pulled up and noticed it was VERY busy....put my gloves and mask on....got out and went to sign in. Every station had a person and hair dresser at it.....the people waiting were all outside the store....there were a couple guys checking out....a couple coming in to take their spots....etc etc. Bottom line is this place was packed.

Any guesses on how many people had a mask and/or gloves on? I'll make it easy. I was the only one in that salon with them on....including the folks outside. I noticed this all within 15-20 seconds so I just quickly turned around and left. I can deal with my hair getting long.

I would have thought that people would still be taking some precautions but I guess not?

This is my biggest issue with reopening right now.

I am 110% confident that there is a way we could safely reopen the majority of the economy. It would require a smidge of sacrifice, large scale testing, and some... do I dare say... oversight, but it's certainly possible. My issue is how willingly stupid and careless so many people in the general public are. I went golfing last Sunday and I was legit pissed when I got there. The pro-shop had a "4 people max" sign on the door, but there were 4 people behind the counter and 9 waiting to pay. Outside, they were allowing people to tailgate right outside the closed restaurant. Had to be 60 people there with lawn chairs and beers out like they were at a concert, and nobody was wearing a mask. I just don't get it. I mean, I guess I do to an extent. We have a president and vice president that are happily going on camera bare-faced while on their travels, setting a terrible precedent.

Opening the economy is entire doable, but I simply can't trust the American people to do it responsibly. There's no doubt in my mind that they're going to fuck it up. We're going to start lifting the shelter in place orders, and we're going to get a nice second wind of this come June or July. I hope I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 10, 2020, 06:25:33 AM

Yeah, over here many places are showing why we unfortunately need tight rules and regulations. I respect that people want complete freedom and choice and all, but there are simply too many people not giving a shit or not understanding the problem for that to work. Many people here cannot even keep 1,5 m distance from a stranger on the streets when there is plenty of room, because that would involve two more steps. Let alone all the other minor safety precautions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 10, 2020, 07:39:20 AM

Today is going to be a good indicator of how responsible people are, as I'm already hearing of many friends and aquaintances making plans for Mother's Day (beach, park, etc). I personally think it'll be a shit show, hoping to be proven wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 10, 2020, 08:02:49 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 10, 2020, 07:39:20 AM

Today is going to be a good indicator of how responsible people are, as I'm already hearing of many friends and aquaintances making plans for Mother's Day (beach, park, etc). I personally think it'll be a shit show, hoping to be proven wrong.

Just wait till Father's Day!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 10, 2020, 12:07:12 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 10, 2020, 08:02:49 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 10, 2020, 07:39:20 AM

Today is going to be a good indicator of how responsible people are, as I'm already hearing of many friends and aquaintances making plans for Mother's Day (beach, park, etc). I personally think it'll be a shit show, hoping to be proven wrong.

Just wait till Father's Day!

You wont have to....Memorial Day is sooner.  2 Weeks.  With all the restrictions coming down, and that being a big "get together" holiday....I hate to think that we might look back and say Memorial Day Weekend was ground zero for coronavirus making its comeback, and shutting us down again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 10, 2020, 01:50:03 PM

Quote from: Orbert on May 08, 2020, 07:34:04 AM

My wife pointed out yesterday that my cheeks really look terrible.  I asked her what she meant by that.  She said they're all fuzzy.  Oh, I get it.  Because I haven't shaved in two months.  Maybe I'm just a horrible person, because I haven't bothered shaving because I don't go to work; no one will see me, so why bother?  She pointed out that she still has to deal with it, and I should want to look presentable for her.  Okay, I suck, because that never occurred to me.

Mother's Day 2020.  She's on a strict diet from her cardiologist, so no candy, cookies, or anything like that.  We have a cat, so she ruled out flowers long ago.  Wherever we put the vase, the cat will find it and knock it over.  If it can't do that, it eats them (perhaps in frustration) and then throws up the remains.  If I were smart, I'd have at least stopped and picked up a card the other night, but I didn't, because I am not smart.

So today I shaved.  My cheeks are all nice and smooth.  I made her feel them.  I did this for her.  She knows this.  She laughed.  It's the least I could, and also the only thing I could think of, so it's what I did.

Tonight for dinner, because we can't go out, we celebrate by letting her choose where we get take-out from.  Then my daughter and I go pick up and stuff it into a thermal bag for the trip home.  My daughter used to work for Domino's Pizza, and brought dinner home from there a few times, so we have a few of the bags still sitting around.  Life during COVID.

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 09, 2020, 01:46:26 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/654rPYpk/FB-IMG-1589049887792.jpg)

At band rehearsal one time, one of the guitarists Dan was having trouble with some chord, I don't remember which.  Our other guitarist Dusty was trying to help him.  "Okay, it's just like a <some> chord, only on this fret, good, now raise your middle finger..." and Dan just looks at him and says "Yeah, I'll raise my middle finger all right."  We all laugh.  This is the church praise band, limited talent but pretty good sense of humor.  Later, we ran into another chord that Dan didn't know, so Dusty says (something like) "Look, an F# minor 7 is just like a D major 7 except you..." and Dan says "Look, I think I'll just raise my middle finger to this one, too, okay?"

Speaking of guitarists, good news on the recovery front for David from my regular band.  He's off the ventilator during the day, though he still needs some help at night.  But because he doesn't have tube down his throat, they've had actual conversations with him.  He's lucid, and while it's still unknown how much permanent effect the stroke will have, he was talking, joking, and using both hands.  Last we knew, he had no movement on his left side, so this is big.  His wife Nancy is being weaned from the ventilator and they're looking forward to scheduling her physical therapy.  So both of them are on the road to recovery.  I was sharing this with my sister yesterday on our weekly "Family Zoom" meeting, and she mentioned a couple she knows, friends of friends actually, and they both died, two days apart.  Holy shit.  Losing a friend or loved one, especially a parent, would be hard.  Losing both parents?  Fuck.  Man, fuck COVID-19.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 10, 2020, 01:51:23 PM

Some of us in the neighborhood with kids have begun to congregate a little bit more and more. There is one family we are friends with and we mutually decided early on to let our kids play together. Their parents are working from home, my wife is working from home, and I am furloughed, and we are all limiting our exposure to grocery stores/take-out/essential trips. It's not perfect, but we decided there was value in our kids having the interaction and physical activity.

Now that the weather is nicer there are more families getting out for walks with their kids, or just letting them play or ride their bikes in the cul de sac. We've been hesitant to let the kids play with anyone else, but let our youngest play with one kid after talking to her parents about what steps they are taking to keep their family safe. Again, not perfect, but Stadler would say we are using our own calculus to determine what is best for us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 10, 2020, 02:06:30 PM

Today I made the eight hours there-and-back trip to see the old mother, screw regulations about traveling across regions. Family is all.

Now I can switch back to my usual law-abiding self. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 10, 2020, 02:09:50 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 10, 2020, 02:06:30 PM

Today I made the eight hours there-and-back trip to see the old mother, screw regulations about traveling across regions. Family is all.

I'm so glad Kingshmegland didn't write this sentence.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 10, 2020, 02:12:55 PM

I wish I could still see my old mother.  I miss her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 10, 2020, 02:16:03 PM

I'm sure. You can have mine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 10, 2020, 02:28:04 PM

 :lol

My mom got ripped off. She retired at 64 and died 8 months later.  It always hit's me hard today and on her birthday coming up in a little over a week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 10, 2020, 02:31:06 PM

My Mom died 5 or 6 years ago from cancer. Exactly 1 week before her birthday.

My Grandma (Mom's mom) died on Tuesday. Was only allowed to say goodbye over the phone while she was comatose and unresponsive. Really sucked. I don't believe her death was Covid related, just old age. I could be wrong. Mom's family has been pretty distant since she died.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 10, 2020, 03:46:22 PM

So my grandma got a stimulus check, problem is she passed in 2018. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 10, 2020, 04:42:27 PM

My condolences to everyone who has lost their mom, or grandmother.  :(

Orbert, I'm really happy to hear about David and Nancy.  And of course sorry for your sister having lost friends.

Virtual hugs for anyone who wants one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 10, 2020, 05:28:06 PM

Quote from: Lethean on May 10, 2020, 04:42:27 PM

My condolences to everyone who has lost their mom, or grandmother.  :(

Orbert, I'm really happy to hear about David and Nancy.  And of course sorry for your sister having lost friends.

Virtual hugs for anyone who wants one.

As I am sure you would agree, these are the times where you crank the Katatonia and wallow in the sorrow for awhile. Their music is made for times like these.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 10, 2020, 05:38:24 PM

So this is highly disturbing.  A packed United flight from NY to SFO.  The passengers had been told days prior to the flight that United would keep the middle seat open to allow for social distancing.  I guess this is what they consider social distancing now.   :huh:

(https://i.imgur.com/WveII2T.jpg)

https://abc7news.com/society/bay-area-doctor-documents-full-flight-from-nyc-to-sf-amid-covid-19-pandemic/6168239/?fbclid=IwAR37sZd38EERO1mKTbELcVu5_a7E4clUdWlQEdBT8XJlFWvkA8daT0Zi27k

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 10, 2020, 05:52:51 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on May 10, 2020, 05:28:06 PM

Quote from: Lethean on May 10, 2020, 04:42:27 PM

My condolences to everyone who has lost their mom, or grandmother.  :(

Orbert, I'm really happy to hear about David and Nancy.  And of course sorry for your sister having lost friends.

Virtual hugs for anyone who wants one.

As I am sure you would agree, these are the times where you crank the Katatonia and wallow in the sorrow for awhile. Their music is made for times like these.

I do indeed agree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2020, 06:07:25 AM

The airline industry is going to collapse in the face of this.  The business model of discount airlines will crumble - passengers jammed in like sardines, with 1hr-ish turnaround times at airports.  It won't survive.  Which means less competition, and higher prices at the Tier 1 airlines - also having to cope with less passengers and higher turnaround.  Longer processes at airports will bite into business travel - why do a quick 1-day turnaround for 1 or 2 meetings, if it's going to cost an extra 3 hours at the airport each way?  Businesses are already questioning the need for as much f2f interaction as we once used to think was "necessary".  Quick weekend getaway to the Bahamas... it won't be financially feasible for anyone except the affluent.  Bringing your kids home from college for Thanksgiving... that's gonna be pricey.  Visit Nana and Papa over Christmas for a few days .... That'll be more than all the kids gifts combined.

I believe people will start looking back to a more 70s style of vacationing - roadtrips, camping, cottage/cabin rentals... Griswald style.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on May 11, 2020, 06:13:56 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 10, 2020, 02:06:30 PM

Today I made the eight hours there-and-back trip to see the old mother, screw regulations about traveling across regions. Family is all.

Now I can switch back to my usual law-abiding self.

I trust that your mother, the greatest mother in the world, is well. I hope you gave her my love, and she scolded you for interacting with weird people on the intertubes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 11, 2020, 06:14:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 11, 2020, 06:07:25 AM

The airline industry is going to collapse in the face of this.  The business model of discount airlines will crumble - passengers jammed in like sardines, with 1hr-ish turnaround times at airports.  It won't survive.  Which means less competition, and higher prices at the Tier 1 airlines - also having to cope with less passengers and higher turnaround.  Longer processes at airports will bite into business travel - why do a quick 1-day turnaround for 1 or 2 meetings, if it's going to cost an extra 3 hours at the airport each way?  Businesses are already questioning the need for as much f2f interaction as we once used to think was "necessary".  Quick weekend getaway to the Bahamas... it won't be financially feasible for anyone except the affluent.  Bringing your kids home from college for Thanksgiving... that's gonna be pricey.  Visit Nana and Papa over Christmas for a few days .... That'll be more than all the kids gifts combined.

I believe people will start looking back to a more 70s style of vacationing - roadtrips, camping, cottage/cabin rentals... Griswald style.

It blows my mind that with all the wealth the US has had in the last 150 years or so, I still can't take a high-speed rail from anywhere to anywhere. It sucks having to rely on plains to get anywhere distant, unless you feel like spending days/weeks on the road.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 11, 2020, 06:17:37 AM

While this is supposed to be humorous, this is exactly how I think a lot of the general public is going to treat whatever plans we try to put in place.

(https://preview.redd.it/g3809gzky3y41.jpg?width=786&auto=webp&s=502f3c08093e3d638a1924c2121b39bf65a42ae5)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 06:38:31 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 11, 2020, 06:07:25 AM

The airline industry is going to collapse in the face of this.  The business model of discount airlines will crumble - passengers jammed in like sardines, with 1hr-ish turnaround times at airports.  It won't survive.  Which means less competition, and higher prices at the Tier 1 airlines - also having to cope with less passengers and higher turnaround.  Longer processes at airports will bite into business travel - why do a quick 1-day turnaround for 1 or 2 meetings, if it's going to cost an extra 3 hours at the airport each way?  Businesses are already questioning the need for as much f2f interaction as we once used to think was "necessary".  Quick weekend getaway to the Bahamas... it won't be financially feasible for anyone except the affluent.  Bringing your kids home from college for Thanksgiving... that's gonna be pricey.  Visit Nana and Papa over Christmas for a few days .... That'll be more than all the kids gifts combined.

I believe people will start looking back to a more 70s style of vacationing - roadtrips, camping, cottage/cabin rentals... Griswald style.

I think airlines will be just fine. There will be bailouts of some kind and people will eventually travel again. Sure, some airlines will probably be lost, but they were likely on the brink before all this happened anyway. As far as people being packed in like sardines on the discount airlines, it's not like the extra 3" of legroom and 1" wider seats really makes a whole lot of difference in the most expensive airlines. People are packed in like sardines regardless. Everyone is going to want to travel as soon as possible. I know we do. 2020 will be ugly, but I bet a year from now airline travel will be chugging along just fine. I do agree that business travel is going to go down a bit as companies realize that video conferencing is just about as good. But people will never stop feeling that face-to-face meetings are better. Especially when it comes to meeting with customers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 11, 2020, 06:41:25 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 11, 2020, 06:14:59 AM

It blows my mind that with all the wealth the US has had in the last 150 years or so, I still can't take a high-speed rail from anywhere to anywhere. It sucks having to rely on plains to get anywhere distant, unless you feel like spending days/weeks on the road.

Would that actually help in face of how damn huge the USA is? in Italy with a train you go directly from Milan to Rome in 3 precise hours, 180 minutes are all is needed to travel between the two most important and most populated italian towns. There's no way you can apply the same concept to important cities in the USA.

Is there some situation of relatively nearby cities where an high speed train would definitively be more convenient than taking a plane? I can't imagine going by New York to Atlanta or from San Francisco to Seattle by high speed train would help to save time, even though speaking more generally it would be way more interesting to travel by train through the most interesting US regions, landscape speaking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 11, 2020, 06:45:06 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 11, 2020, 06:41:25 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 11, 2020, 06:14:59 AM

It blows my mind that with all the wealth the US has had in the last 150 years or so, I still can't take a high-speed rail from anywhere to anywhere. It sucks having to rely on plains to get anywhere distant, unless you feel like spending days/weeks on the road.

Would that actually help in face of how damn huge the USA is? in Italy with a train you go directly from Milan to Rome in 3 precise hours, 180 minutes are all is needed to travel between the two most important and most populated italian towns. There's no way you can apply the same concept to important cities in the USA.

Is there some situation of relatively nearby cities where an high speed train would definitively be more convenient than taking a plane? I can't imagine going by New York to Atlanta or from San Francisco to Seattle by high speed train would help to save time, even though speaking more generally it would be way more interesting to travel by train through the most interesting US regions, landscape speaking.

Los Angeles to San Francisco could benefit from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 06:51:49 AM

Connect it to Chicago too, please, so everyone from Chicago can stop moving to my town.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 11, 2020, 06:52:56 AM

If anything, I think this is proof we need to start heavily investing in Stargate technology.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on May 11, 2020, 07:01:09 AM

Indeed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:10:18 AM

Other than between a few east coast cities and a few California cities, I don't think high speed rail makes a lot of sense in the US. It's just too spread out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 07:13:48 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:10:18 AM

Other than between a few east coast cities and a few California cities, I don't think high speed rail makes a lot of sense in the US. It's just too spread out.

Er, wouldn't that be exactly the logic behind making high speed rail? Faster travel is faster travel, brudda  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2020, 07:15:40 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 06:38:31 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 11, 2020, 06:07:25 AM

The airline industry is going to collapse in the face of this.  The business model of discount airlines will crumble - passengers jammed in like sardines, with 1hr-ish turnaround times at airports.  It won't survive.  Which means less competition, and higher prices at the Tier 1 airlines - also having to cope with less passengers and higher turnaround.  Longer processes at airports will bite into business travel - why do a quick 1-day turnaround for 1 or 2 meetings, if it's going to cost an extra 3 hours at the airport each way?  Businesses are already questioning the need for as much f2f interaction as we once used to think was "necessary".  Quick weekend getaway to the Bahamas... it won't be financially feasible for anyone except the affluent.  Bringing your kids home from college for Thanksgiving... that's gonna be pricey.  Visit Nana and Papa over Christmas for a few days .... That'll be more than all the kids gifts combined.

I believe people will start looking back to a more 70s style of vacationing - roadtrips, camping, cottage/cabin rentals... Griswald style.

I think airlines will be just fine. There will be bailouts of some kind and people will eventually travel again. Sure, some airlines will probably be lost, but they were likely on the brink before all this happened anyway. As far as people being packed in like sardines on the discount airlines, it's not like the extra 3" of legroom and 1" wider seats really makes a whole lot of difference in the most expensive airlines. People are packed in like sardines regardless. Everyone is going to want to travel as soon as possible. I know we do. 2020 will be ugly, but I bet a year from now airline travel will be chugging along just fine. I do agree that business travel is going to go down a bit as companies realize that video conferencing is just about as good. But people will never stop feeling that face-to-face meetings are better. Especially when it comes to meeting with customers.

I'll gladly take that bet.  People may indeed FEEL that f2f meetings are better - and they are right.  But what I think that the new risk/reward equation will mean that video calling will be 'good enough' in MANY situations.  My bet is that virtually all discount airlines will collapse, prices will skyrocket, time at airports for screening and boarding will at least double (largely due to on-board sanitation), planes will be reconfigured, and flight travel overall will be a shell (1/3rd) of what it once was.

Also, the government can only bail out so many companies / industries.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 07:24:06 AM

It'll probably be bad for a while but I don't see how airlines don't eventually come back. Air travel is just too important to the modern world. It'll suck temporarily and airlines might go under but they'll be back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 11, 2020, 07:34:50 AM

It's interesting; I sent a PM to one of my friends here only about a week ago, bringing to his attention a thread in the "Archive" section regarding high speed rail, from about nine years ago.   I work in this industry, and I can tell you straight up:  it ain't about wealth. 

- Physics.  Top speeds of airplanes, with no crossing streets, no rivers, mountains, houses, lakes, old ladies that won't sell, can be 600 mph or more.   Chicago to LA (2000 miles, plus, minus) is just over three hours.  MAX HSR speed (the Maglev) is I think 260 mph.  That's HALF, so we're at seven, almost eight hours, but that's assuming straight shot, full speed the entire way, no stops, no crossing streets (there are speed and volume limitations for all crossings, non-negotiable at this point in time), no rivers, no mountains, no house, lakes, old ladies or canyons.  Most high speed rail is less than about 100 mph; the standard on most systems here, now, is 125 max. 
- Will.  For whatever reasons we can debate (probably endlessly), for every Stadler or Chino that would use this service, there are five people that won't, for whatever reason.  And it creates an untenable business model. Typically operation models are predicated on ridership and the revenue created from that ridership.  We build them, we maintain them, we service them, we don't operate them, for the simple reason that it's just not a predictable, reliable business stream.   I have billion dollar contracts to supply what's called "rolling stock" (the train itself), hundreds of million dollar contracts to supply the on-board and wayside signaling, service existing units, overhaul aging units, provide parts...  every joint venture/partnership I'm involved in is to bring in an operator. 
- Political considerations.   From a stimulus perspective, rail is an untapped resource to put people to work building infrastructure via PPP (Public-private partnerships).  Billions and billions can be pumped back into the economy, hundreds of thousands of jobs can be created, to upgrade the existing rail system (freight lines cannot be used for high speed rail at maximum velocity; this is in part why in the Northeast, "HSP" rarely gets over 75 mph).   Here in Connecticut, along the corridor from Hartford to New Haven, there are tens of locations where these "humps" - artificial "hills" - have been created to remove crossings.  It's literally a ramp built on either side of the rail line to allow traffic to flow over the track so that there is no physical crossing for the train to encounter.  Looks ridiculous, but it is what it is.   Now you have to do this on hundreds - maybe thousands - of other crossings across the U.S.
- Human nature.   I can't and won't say too much, but the thread I referenced had a pretty specific discussion about a project on the west coast - the SF/LA line - and I'm familiar with that project.  Very familiar.  The contract/project discussed almost nine years ago, is now mired in litigation, with hundreds of millions at stake, and while there is progress being made, it's not what it was envisioned to be, and won't be.  Poor planning, poor management, and lack of flexibility from various partners have rendered it an embarrassment on several levels.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:41:08 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:13:48 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:10:18 AM

Other than between a few east coast cities and a few California cities, I don't think high speed rail makes a lot of sense in the US. It's just too spread out.

Er, wouldn't that be exactly the logic behind making high speed rail? Faster travel is faster travel, brudda  :lol

Building long range high speed rail would likely cost trillions of dollars. The infrastructure for planes is already in place. It's more the cost than the speed that is the issue.

There's a sweet spot in terms of distance that might make sense for high speed rail. For example a flight from Minneapolis to Chicago is less than a hour, but by the time you add in parking, getting through security, waiting on the tarmac, etc, it's a 3+ hour ordeal. High speed rail that could travel 120+ mph could possible compete if you could eliminate a lot of the other time associated with air travel. Same for New York to Boston, New York to Philadelphia, or Los Angeles to San Francisco. Possibly could make sense. But Americans aren't going to use high speed rail unless the travel time is similar and the cost is lower compared to air travel. With the trillions in infrastructure involved in building it, I just don't see how rail can compete.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 07:43:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:41:08 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:13:48 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:10:18 AM

Other than between a few east coast cities and a few California cities, I don't think high speed rail makes a lot of sense in the US. It's just too spread out.

Er, wouldn't that be exactly the logic behind making high speed rail? Faster travel is faster travel, brudda  :lol

Building long range high speed rail would likely cost trillions of dollars. The infrastructure for planes is already in place. It's more the cost than the speed that is the issue.

That's true, but installing any new technology or infrastructure ('new' being relative to the time and place it's being implemented) is very expensive. Didn't stop the production of cars, or air travel, or the implementation of the Interstate Highway Act. :)

I believe the physics aspect as Stadler pointed out is the biggest issue with it. It obviously works best in smaller places like Japan but it would be a huge benefit to a massive country like the USA in time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:59:05 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:43:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:41:08 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:13:48 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:10:18 AM

Other than between a few east coast cities and a few California cities, I don't think high speed rail makes a lot of sense in the US. It's just too spread out.

Er, wouldn't that be exactly the logic behind making high speed rail? Faster travel is faster travel, brudda  :lol

Building long range high speed rail would likely cost trillions of dollars. The infrastructure for planes is already in place. It's more the cost than the speed that is the issue.

That's true, but installing any new technology or infrastructure ('new' being relative to the time and place it's being implemented) is very expensive. Didn't stop the production of cars, or air travel, or the implementation of the Interstate Highway Act. :)

I believe the physics aspect as Stadler pointed out is the biggest issue with it. It obviously works best in smaller places like Japan but it would be a huge benefit to a massive country like the USA in time.

Sure, new technology is always expensive to implement. Building airports presented a massive advantage over the rail travel at the time. The interstate highway system was also a massive improvement over the auto travel and rail travel of the time. These were worth the investment because of the huge improvements in travel they represented. Adding high speed rail in the US is at best an equally fast, equally priced travel option compared to airlines. Is it worth investing trillions into a travel system that adds no significant benefit for the traveler? Again, apart from some very highly traveled, relatively close locations, I don't see it making sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 08:01:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:59:05 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:43:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:41:08 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:13:48 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:10:18 AM

Other than between a few east coast cities and a few California cities, I don't think high speed rail makes a lot of sense in the US. It's just too spread out.

Er, wouldn't that be exactly the logic behind making high speed rail? Faster travel is faster travel, brudda  :lol

Building long range high speed rail would likely cost trillions of dollars. The infrastructure for planes is already in place. It's more the cost than the speed that is the issue.

That's true, but installing any new technology or infrastructure ('new' being relative to the time and place it's being implemented) is very expensive. Didn't stop the production of cars, or air travel, or the implementation of the Interstate Highway Act. :)

I believe the physics aspect as Stadler pointed out is the biggest issue with it. It obviously works best in smaller places like Japan but it would be a huge benefit to a massive country like the USA in time.

Sure, new technology is always expensive to implement. Building airports presented a massive advantage over the rail travel at the time. The interstate highway system was also a massive improvement over the auto travel and rail travel of the time. These were worth the investment because of the huge improvements in travel they represented. Adding high speed rail in the US is at best an equally fast, equally priced travel option compared to airlines. Is it worth investing trillions into a travel system that adds no significant benefit for the traveler?

Well, if you operate under the premise that you already assume there's no significant benefit for the traveler, maybe not. But I know for someone like me who loathes the idea of ever getting in the air, it sounds like a much nicer method of travel. I think writing it off like you know there's no significant benefit is a mistake. Now if that determination came from the government or a company that specifically deals in this business, I'd probably put more stock in it - no offense  :tup I just think it's too complex to dismiss it so quickly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 08:06:12 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 08:01:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:59:05 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:43:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:41:08 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 07:13:48 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 07:10:18 AM

Other than between a few east coast cities and a few California cities, I don't think high speed rail makes a lot of sense in the US. It's just too spread out.

Er, wouldn't that be exactly the logic behind making high speed rail? Faster travel is faster travel, brudda  :lol

Building long range high speed rail would likely cost trillions of dollars. The infrastructure for planes is already in place. It's more the cost than the speed that is the issue.

That's true, but installing any new technology or infrastructure ('new' being relative to the time and place it's being implemented) is very expensive. Didn't stop the production of cars, or air travel, or the implementation of the Interstate Highway Act. :)

I believe the physics aspect as Stadler pointed out is the biggest issue with it. It obviously works best in smaller places like Japan but it would be a huge benefit to a massive country like the USA in time.

Sure, new technology is always expensive to implement. Building airports presented a massive advantage over the rail travel at the time. The interstate highway system was also a massive improvement over the auto travel and rail travel of the time. These were worth the investment because of the huge improvements in travel they represented. Adding high speed rail in the US is at best an equally fast, equally priced travel option compared to airlines. Is it worth investing trillions into a travel system that adds no significant benefit for the traveler?

Well, if you operate under the premise that you already assume there's no significant benefit for the traveler, maybe not. But I know for someone like me who loathes the idea of ever getting in the air, it sounds like a much nicer method of travel. I think writing it off like you know there's no significant benefit is a mistake. Now if that determination came from the government or a company that specifically deals in this business, I'd probably put more stock in it - no offense  :tup I just think it's too complex to dismiss it so quickly.

It's definitely worth considering in specific cases, sure. And there are definitely people that would consider travelling on the ground as being superior to in the air. I think the vast majority of Americans are going to consider cost and travel time to be the top two things worth considering with all other considerations far behind. I agree it's too complex to dismiss it as an option in some cases, but I don't think it's even worth considering a nationwide high speed rail network.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 08:08:41 AM

Well, no, not all at once, not immediately. Like anything else, baby steps. You start off in big cities, then you start connecting closer big cities. Eventually you connect, say, San Francisco to Chicago to New York. In the future, as technology improves, as it becomes more viable, maybe you get a transcontinental high speed railroad, similar to the transcontinental railroad, similar to the highway system. The Wright Brothers didn't start off with an airport and scheduled flights to Beijing.


... sorry! I just remembered this is the COVID thread  :facepalm: :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 11, 2020, 08:11:41 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 08:08:41 AM

Well, no, not all at once, not immediately. Like anything else, baby steps. You start off in big cities, then you start connecting closer big cities. Eventually you connect, say, San Francisco to Chicago to New York. In the future, as technology improves, as it becomes more viable, maybe you get a transcontinental high speed railroad, similar to the transcontinental railroad, similar to the highway system. The Wright Brothers didn't start off with an airport and scheduled flights to Beijing.


... sorry! I just remembered this is the COVID thread  :facepalm: :lol

Maybe. I'm not opposed to exploring it and growing it naturally like that if it makes sense. In our current environment I can't see it being economically viable, but things can change.

I forgot which thread we were in too! Tying it back into the Covid theme, I don't think there would be any advantages in avoiding spreading disease since the close quarters and people being packed in would be about the same. Though they can pump fresh air into the train which might help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 09:09:05 AM

I found a new container of disinfectant wipes in the back room. Wearing my masks all day at work for the foreseeable future, and got me a box of gloves to last a while too. Not today, Satan :2metal: We jumped from 40-something cases to 79 now, with 71 living in town, although I think a sizable chunk of those are recovered? It's hard to get a grasp on the actual hard numbers. Really tired of seeing all the rubes think it's 100% confined to the Latino community, there was a story about one of the community leaders who is also a pastor, he was walking outside this weekend and some guy gave him the finger and told "all you illegals to go back home." Ugh. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 11, 2020, 09:10:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 09:09:05 AM

I found a new container of disinfectant wipes in the back room. Wearing my masks all day at work for the foreseeable future, and got me a box of gloves to last a while too. Not today, Satan :2metal:

Enjoy living under tyranny, sheep!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 09:11:26 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 11, 2020, 09:10:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 09:09:05 AM

I found a new container of disinfectant wipes in the back room. Wearing my masks all day at work for the foreseeable future, and got me a box of gloves to last a while too. Not today, Satan :2metal:

Enjoy living under tyranny, sheep!

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 11, 2020, 09:39:08 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 11, 2020, 09:10:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 09:09:05 AM

I found a new container of disinfectant wipes in the back room. Wearing my masks all day at work for the foreseeable future, and got me a box of gloves to last a while too. Not today, Satan :2metal:

Enjoy living under tyranny, sheep!

Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zu-owly-zhiv!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 11, 2020, 10:16:59 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 11, 2020, 09:10:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 09:09:05 AM

I found a new container of disinfectant wipes in the back room. Wearing my masks all day at work for the foreseeable future, and got me a box of gloves to last a while too. Not today, Satan :2metal:

Enjoy living under tyranny, sheep!

:lol :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 11, 2020, 12:20:19 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 11, 2020, 09:39:08 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 11, 2020, 09:10:09 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 09:09:05 AM

I found a new container of disinfectant wipes in the back room. Wearing my masks all day at work for the foreseeable future, and got me a box of gloves to last a while too. Not today, Satan :2metal:

Enjoy living under tyranny, sheep!

Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zu-owly-zhiv!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/tnYri4n2Frnig/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 11, 2020, 12:23:54 PM

Just got furloughed.....knew it was coming and honestly I'm thankful that I've been getting paid this long.  I haven't really 'worked' in a good 5 or 6 weeks outside of some small busy work. We get paid the rest of the week and the furlough starts this Sunday.

They can't tell me if it's 2 weeks or 6 months. Being in construction projects it's all about which projects they give the green light to. The hospitals are slowly starting elective services and surgeries again so some money should start coming in....but, who knows. I told my boss that I love my job and working for her but that I cannot sit idly by. I can start collecting unemployment but without a clear end date to this I'm going to start reaching out to a few of the firms that have approached me over the past couple years. But, this pandemic has changed the landscape so I'm sure they're feeling the heat also.

We shall see.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 11, 2020, 12:35:08 PM

Man, that sucks. Hope you don't sit idle for too long.

I'm so lucky to be in IT. Not too mention for one of the biggest hospitals in Chicago. The impact on me has been, well, nothing really. Hate seeing what it is doing to friends and family. Sadly, I don't see this going away fast.

Good luck, man. Hope this doesn't adversely affect you too much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 11, 2020, 12:41:13 PM

Sucks Gary, welcome to the club.


I just got a call from my boss, and he told me that the owner has agreed to pay us out for every workable day in May, even though none of our offices are open. Don't know if this'll carry into June, or have any clue as to when I'll physically be going back to work, so taking it one day at a time.

I'll burn the EDD bridge when absolutely necessary, just keep claiming whatever income I make. Who knows if a whole other wave of layoffs are coming in a few months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 12:51:30 PM

Me: wears a mask
Delivery guy: WHOA! Don't you feel like we're in China?

No? 'cause I'm not a moron and there's a million other ways that differentiate our lives from Chinese people's?  :lol Jesus. I have no problem rolling my eyes at those statements

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on May 11, 2020, 12:58:11 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 11, 2020, 06:45:06 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 11, 2020, 06:41:25 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 11, 2020, 06:14:59 AM

It blows my mind that with all the wealth the US has had in the last 150 years or so, I still can't take a high-speed rail from anywhere to anywhere. It sucks having to rely on plains to get anywhere distant, unless you feel like spending days/weeks on the road.

Would that actually help in face of how damn huge the USA is? in Italy with a train you go directly from Milan to Rome in 3 precise hours, 180 minutes are all is needed to travel between the two most important and most populated italian towns. There's no way you can apply the same concept to important cities in the USA.

Is there some situation of relatively nearby cities where an high speed train would definitively be more convenient than taking a plane? I can't imagine going by New York to Atlanta or from San Francisco to Seattle by high speed train would help to save time, even though speaking more generally it would be way more interesting to travel by train through the most interesting US regions, landscape speaking.

Los Angeles to San Francisco could benefit from it.

I would have liked to go from LA to SF in my trip back in February via train, but there were no feasible options to take one in the morning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2020, 01:11:52 PM

@ Gary... sorry to hear that dude.

Regarding transportation... I can see the technology upon us before the end of the decade whereby trains are faster than planes.  It's out there already (Hyperloop (https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hyperloop/index.html)).  Maybe not in some of our lifetimes, but it's not that far off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 11, 2020, 02:33:09 PM

So this has been happening here.... there is a way to alert authorities about people/groups/businesses violated the state Stay Home orders. This is a matter of public record, and people have used that information to publicly dox and even threaten on social media those who posted the alerts. Couple things here... if you feel the need to alert authorities, take a second to consider the nature and significance of the violation. And if you feel the need to dox/threaten someone online, take a second to consider your own mental state.

The more crap like this happens, the more Kattelox's esteemed "Delivery Driver" sounds like he is on to something.

Quote from: Kattelox on May 11, 2020, 12:51:30 PM

Delivery guy: WHOA! Don't you feel like we're in China?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 11, 2020, 02:34:24 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 08, 2020, 03:41:32 PM

The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR2c0flB4LApT2ySqMfyY7OdOUTUC0ntccdssVvbwVGFc9ngyhvH0fTIRLQ

They are literally talking about this article on the local sports radio talk show.






@Gary, that blows. I'm very sorry to hear that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 11, 2020, 02:35:41 PM

I'm not really sure what to say to anyone who thinks this is all it takes for you to feel like you're living in China. It is such a hyperbolic statement to make it's almost not worth arguing.

At the same time, all those Gladys Kravitzes need to go kick rocks and mind their own business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on May 11, 2020, 09:24:29 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 11, 2020, 06:17:37 AM

While this is supposed to be humorous, this is exactly how I think a lot of the general public is going to treat whatever plans we try to put in place.

(https://preview.redd.it/g3809gzky3y41.jpg?width=786&auto=webp&s=502f3c08093e3d638a1924c2121b39bf65a42ae5)

Man, I'm in the absolute hardest hit section of PA and yet this is far too true. Other sections of the state are already telling the governor they'll do whatever they want and here, with the exception of schools and a handful of easy to monitor business it already seems like way too much is back to normal.

My work isn't slowing down anytime soon. I've got 3 bodies at hospitals right now that are only still there because I literally do not have the room for them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 12, 2020, 08:11:31 AM

I am interested to see what happens with Elon Musk and Tesla. He decided to reopen the Tesla factory despite not being in the clear to do so.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21255149/elon-musk-tesla-fremont-factory-reopen-order-arrest-alameda

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 12, 2020, 09:14:13 AM

Quote from: Nick on May 11, 2020, 09:24:29 PM

Man, I'm in the absolute hardest hit section of PA and yet this is far too true. Other sections of the state are already telling the governor they'll do whatever they want and here, with the exception of schools and a handful of easy to monitor business it already seems like way too much is back to normal.

My work isn't slowing down anytime soon. I've got 3 bodies at hospitals right now that are only still there because I literally do not have the room for them.

Are the bodies contagious post mortem? And if so, for how long?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 12, 2020, 04:37:07 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on May 12, 2020, 08:11:31 AM

I am interested to see what happens with Elon Musk and Tesla. He decided to reopen the Tesla factory despite not being in the clear to do so.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21255149/elon-musk-tesla-fremont-factory-reopen-order-arrest-alameda

I'm not one for conspiracies, but I think a lot of this is mostly an attempt to start winning over the GM crowd as we approach the official launch of the Cyber Truck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 12, 2020, 05:43:39 PM

I'm really thinking that most of the central, lesser hit states locked down too early. In Minnesota, we've been locked down since we had 200 confirmed cases. I always figured by June people would be fed up with this and not care anymore. I'd say we're there already for at least half of us. Sure, the spread has likely been slowed down, but they started the lockdown before anyone really thought it was much of a threat here due to the low confirmed cases. Now that the cases are getting higher, too many people don't give a crap anymore and are fed up with staying home. Add in the nice weather finally arriving and people just want to get out. Not sure waiting another month would have made much difference in the long run, but it kinda feels like now is the time we should be locking down, not two months ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 12, 2020, 07:07:04 PM

but the thing is, locking down early WAS the right thing to do, if widespread testing and contact tracing wasn't an option.  It's supposed to look like an exaggeration, if it does it means it worked. At least that's my understanding.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 12, 2020, 07:14:49 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 12, 2020, 07:07:04 PM

but the thing is, locking down early WAS the right thing to do.  It's supposed to look like an exaggeration, if it does it means it worked. At least that's my understanding.

Not arguing it wasn't the right thing to do. My point is that most people had maybe two months in them of being shut in before they decided they'd had enough. Was it better to have that two months slow the growth to 2500 cases instead of 5000 cases. Or would it have been better to wait to start until there were 5000 cases and slow the growth to 20,000 cases instead of 40,000? (Made up numbers of course, but you get the point I hope)

I know there's no way to know how things would have progressed without the lockdown. And it was probably right to start when they did. But I can't help but think we would have taken lockdown more seriously if the situation was worse at the time it started and it ultimately could have saved more lives.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on May 12, 2020, 10:33:09 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 12, 2020, 09:14:13 AM

Quote from: Nick on May 11, 2020, 09:24:29 PM

Man, I'm in the absolute hardest hit section of PA and yet this is far too true. Other sections of the state are already telling the governor they'll do whatever they want and here, with the exception of schools and a handful of easy to monitor business it already seems like way too much is back to normal.

My work isn't slowing down anytime soon. I've got 3 bodies at hospitals right now that are only still there because I literally do not have the room for them.

Are the bodies contagious post mortem? And if so, for how long?

The general consensus is they absolutely are still contagious, the big question is for how long as I'm not sure extensive studies have been done on that issue. The biggest risks are when movement of a body causes air to escape from the nose/mouth, potentially spreading into the air the virus. As such one of the most common changes we've seen is when people die, COVID or not, hospitals and nursing homes put a mask on them. We already have sprays for disinfecting a body, but we make extra sure we get some right up the nose and into the mouth when we use it. Theoretically embalming, if we would need to do it (we try not to on COVID cases) should greatly reduce or eliminate any remaining threat, but we still follow CDC guidelines in asking the less than 10 people that may be at the funeral not to get within 6 feet of the casket if it is open.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on May 12, 2020, 11:19:11 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on May 12, 2020, 08:11:31 AM

I am interested to see what happens with Elon Musk and Tesla. He decided to reopen the Tesla factory despite not being in the clear to do so.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21255149/elon-musk-tesla-fremont-factory-reopen-order-arrest-alameda

I was talking to my sister about this last night, she and her boyfriend both work at the Fremont plant. He went back to work last night, and she went back this morning. We all feel it's too early to begin ramping back up, and Elon's presence on the line has only meant bosses on the line are cracking the whip more often.

That said, I also live in Alameda county where we've had 2122 cases and 75 deaths. My jobsite (construction electrician) in the neighboring Santa Clara county hotspot is at 2341 cases and 131 deaths. They started back up on Monday as well with the blessing of the state and county, implementing very similar protocols as Tesla in Fremont is doing, on an 18 (growing to 28) story building in downtown San Jose.

Given that, I don't begrudge Elon for pushing back against what appears to be a technicality of a one-size-fits-all approach. I expect the remediation plan Tesla has submitted to the county will meet the same guidelines other businesses are following, for better or for worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 13, 2020, 07:48:37 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 12, 2020, 07:07:04 PM

but the thing is, locking down early WAS the right thing to do, if widespread testing and contact tracing wasn't an option.  It's supposed to look like an exaggeration, if it does it means it worked. At least that's my understanding.

That's what "they" want you to think.  ;)   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 13, 2020, 09:24:07 AM

Quote from: Nick on May 12, 2020, 10:33:09 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 12, 2020, 09:14:13 AM

Quote from: Nick on May 11, 2020, 09:24:29 PM

Man, I'm in the absolute hardest hit section of PA and yet this is far too true. Other sections of the state are already telling the governor they'll do whatever they want and here, with the exception of schools and a handful of easy to monitor business it already seems like way too much is back to normal.

My work isn't slowing down anytime soon. I've got 3 bodies at hospitals right now that are only still there because I literally do not have the room for them.

Are the bodies contagious post mortem? And if so, for how long?

The general consensus is they absolutely are still contagious, the big question is for how long as I'm not sure extensive studies have been done on that issue. The biggest risks are when movement of a body causes air to escape from the nose/mouth, potentially spreading into the air the virus. As such one of the most common changes we've seen is when people die, COVID or not, hospitals and nursing homes put a mask on them. We already have sprays for disinfecting a body, but we make extra sure we get some right up the nose and into the mouth when we use it. Theoretically embalming, if we would need to do it (we try not to on COVID cases) should greatly reduce or eliminate any remaining threat, but we still follow CDC guidelines in asking the less than 10 people that may be at the funeral not to get within 6 feet of the casket if it is open.

OK was curious, stay safe bud. My uncle passed right before this all started, on March 12th, and he was cremated but the SIP hit right after so my aunt held off on any services. Now, since it looks like larger gatherings are going to be nixed for a good while and my aunt needs the closure, they're just going to do a tiny private service with my aunt, the kids, and my parents, and we'll have a reception at a much later date. It makes it really hard to process the grief, but we don't have much choice do we?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 13, 2020, 10:38:36 AM

As I've said elsewhere, my wife is a teacher, and all the talk among her staff and higher-ups regarding school in the fall is prefaced with "if" and not "when."  Ideas are being bounced around like staggered start/end times, half days so half the kids come in the morning, the other half come in the afternoon. That is surreal to think that school might not be back in full swing in September. 

Overused term of the day: "new normal."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 13, 2020, 10:44:08 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 13, 2020, 10:38:36 AM

As I've said elsewhere, my wife is a teacher, and all the talk among her staff and higher-ups regarding school in the fall is prefaced with "if" and not "when."  Ideas are being bounced around like staggered start/end times, half days so half the kids come in the morning, the other half come in the afternoon. That is surreal to think that school might not be back in full swing in September. 

Overused term of the day: "new normal."

Something I'm really interested in knowing the answer to: how does this affect stuff like state testing? Finals? Kids who were probably gonna fail their grade - we all knew a couple of them - are they just being moved on to the next grade? Are students allowed to test for AP courses (I know I had to take a timed English essay + test to qualify for AP after also meeting the GPA requirement)? I imagine it's gotta be a giant clusterf&*$.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 13, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

I can only speak knowledgeably about my district, and a little less knowledgeably about my state, but I am nearly 100% certain no one will held back a grade. My wife teaches, and my kids is in, elemntary so I do not know anything about AP/higher level stuff.

My wife teaches kids on IEPs (special needs kids) and some of her students qualify (independent of the current shut-down), extended services, meaning through the summer. Some parents who have kids who do not qualify are starting to ask about receiving instruction over the summer. I am sure the teacher's union will be agreeable to that (he said sarcastically). Some parents have kids who receive one-on-one instruction for OTs/PTs, and are actually asking about how their kids are going to receive those services, which would entail the OT/PT coming to their house to work with their kid. District is all "yeah... that's not going to happen."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 13, 2020, 11:21:25 AM

The fact of the matter is that some kids - a small number, but "anything greater than one..." - are not going to be served by this interruption in the routine.  The clusterfuck is going to come about by how that's handled, and how that handling is received.   Pushing kids through just because isn't the answer, and "MY kid isn't being held back!" isn't either.  I know for me, with a boy that requires additional help to get through, these last couple months have been a wasteland, educationally.  Sure, he gets the packets from the school, but they get banged out in 45 minutes, and it's not a "learning situation".  You don't get the implicit help from hearing other students' questions, you don't get the teacher's pitch on the material... we're doing the best we can, and both the teacher and the paras have reached out and scheduled video conferences periodically, so we're connected, but it's not the same.  Our son needs the context and the social interactions as much as the 3/4 +5/8 = 1 3/8 part.   On that front he's been frozen at "February 22" or whenever it was. 

Because of the nature of his program, he won't be "held back" per se - he's already on his own program more or less - but there are certain things that no program, no study packet in the world can make up.  I hope all the parents in that situation are as cognizant of that as we have had to be (not that we're great, or anything, but we have attorneys, guardians ad litem, psychologists, therapists, etc. involved; it is hard not to be grounded in such an environment).   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 13, 2020, 11:23:33 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 13, 2020, 10:44:08 AM

Something I'm really interested in knowing the answer to: how does this affect stuff like state testing? Finals? Kids who were probably gonna fail their grade - we all knew a couple of them - are they just being moved on to the next grade? Are students allowed to test for AP courses (I know I had to take a timed English essay + test to qualify for AP after also meeting the GPA requirement)? I imagine it's gotta be a giant clusterf&*$.

Don't know about other states, but NY cancelled all SATs and state exams (regents). From what I heard, most students will receive a "passed" or "Incomplete" grade instead of a number or letter. If you passed, cool. if you didn't, you might be asked to attend summer school (virtually) or have a deadline to submit your missing assignments and replace the "incomplete" with a "passed".

Now, when it comes to seniors that were supposed to graduate, I have no idea what they will do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 13, 2020, 11:24:20 AM

And on a related note (to the point about families being realistic), allow me to vent for a second.  He's a 12-year-old boy and all that that entails.  Boogers, not a lot of hand-washing, dogs, etc. etc.   We've been pretty diligent about that stuff, not going out, masks when we do, distancing... we've even, with court approval, limited his time with his dad (his wife works in the medical field) until we could be certain of the status of their household (Dad wouldn't tell us for several weeks what she did in the medical field; our son said she's a doctor or a nurse - I've talked to her once; she ain't no doctor or nurse - but we weren't clear what her exposure was).  He finally went over there this weekend, first time in about a month and a half, and....     they went out for flowers (the whole family).  They went visiting family.  They went shopping.   No masks, no gloves, no hand sanitizer... WTF?   Back to square one with him to teach him diligence, and first thing out of his mouth?   Any guesses? Any takers?    "Why?  Dad didn't make me do this stuff."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on May 13, 2020, 01:31:28 PM

There are going to be students at all levels (including college) who are getting a major free pass. I wife is teaching a course right now and she's basically been said that everyone will pass because this is a stressful time. I have no idea how school will resume as scheduled in the fall but there really isn't a choice. I'm just glad that I'm using my teaching degree for something different because their jobs are going to get dramatically more difficult.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 13, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

My Director had a staff meeting on Monday and the question was asked about returning to the office. His response was blunt, I don't see us returning this year. The majority of my co-workers work out of a building in Chicago near the lake. They are up on the 26th floor. They have no idea how to handle elevators, break rooms, etc. Not to mention a total change in how and what the cleaning crew would touch.

All I heard was, I don't have to go downtown this year for any pointless meetings. The commute is killer and it's just better at home. I usually have to go 2-4 times a year for a lunch meeting. It's a total loss of a day due to the commute time.

To pile on Stads school stuff, it has been a disaster with my son. My wife has enlisted our nephew to help with the science stuff and she is just doing his assignments and then sitting down with him to explain as best she can. If next year has issues, I don't know what will happen. If he is not engaged, he just won't participate or do the work. He needs to be in a classroom with a teacher.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 13, 2020, 01:48:00 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 13, 2020, 11:24:20 AM

And on a related note (to the point about families being realistic), allow me to vent for a second.  He's a 12-year-old boy and all that that entails.  Boogers, not a lot of hand-washing, dogs, etc. etc.   We've been pretty diligent about that stuff, not going out, masks when we do, distancing... we've even, with court approval, limited his time with his dad (his wife works in the medical field) until we could be certain of the status of their household (Dad wouldn't tell us for several weeks what she did in the medical field; our son said she's a doctor or a nurse - I've talked to her once; she ain't no doctor or nurse - but we weren't clear what her exposure was).  He finally went over there this weekend, first time in about a month and a half, and....     they went out for flowers (the whole family).  They went visiting family.  They went shopping.   No masks, no gloves, no hand sanitizer... WTF?   Back to square one with him to teach him diligence, and first thing out of his mouth?   Any guesses? Any takers?    "Why?  Dad didn't make me do this stuff."

Wait - isn't this the same guy doing covid parties at his house?  Um...if so, I realize that legally, child custody agreements aren't put on hold due to covid.  So I get that in some ways, hands are tied.  But did you really expect anything else based on past behavior?

As for schools, it doesn't make much sense to me to do half students for half a day and half for the other half.  Can't clean between, bus schedules would be all f-ed up.  Would make much more sense to do half students one day and half the next.  Group 1 M/W/F week 1 and T/Th week 2.  Group 2 T/Th week 1 and M/W/F week 2.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 13, 2020, 01:52:05 PM

Saw a report on restaurants in other countries. Why would anyone go out to eat like this?

(https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20200513&t=2&i=1518518762&w=780&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2020-05-13T172610Z_35578_MRPRC2CKG9Y71FQ_RTRMADP_0_HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS-THAILAND)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 13, 2020, 01:56:17 PM

90 cases in my town now, up from 70-something a few days ago. Keeps going up.

And I know how this is going to sound, but whatever: literally without fail, every single person who comes into my place of work without a mask is a white person, middle aged or older. And half the time they're with their spouse, no mask, no gloves. And every single one of them - no exaggeration - has bitched about masks, the (democrat, naturally) governor, the financial state of Illinois (despite it being in the gutter for many years before this pandemic), and everything else under the sun. Every single other person who has come in - people of color, young people, and plenty of white people young and old, don't get me wrong - has worn a mask. But the only people not wearing them are, I can only gauge from their rhetoric, white Trump supporters. (How do I know this? It's a small rural town. People talk. A LOT.)

Obviously there are exceptions to that, as I just acknowledged some of them. But the split between who's wearing them and who's not around here, and who's taking it seriously and who isn't, is very interesting to me.

Sorry not sorry... just venting. Dealing with shortness of breath the last few days and the anxiety this is inducing is only making it worse. 4 people standing in the office now (plus me, plus my boss, I'm the only one with a mask). The office is like 15 x 10. I gotta wipe everything down several times an hour. I'm almost out of wipes. (EDIT: And there's a sign on the front door saying only one person at a time is allowed in. Okay.)

(And I know at least one person on my ignore list will call me a race-baiter or a racist. It's cool. I'm not, but everyone's entitled to their opinion)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 13, 2020, 03:29:28 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 13, 2020, 01:56:17 PM

90 cases in my town now, up from 70-something a few days ago. Keeps going up.

And I know how this is going to sound, but whatever: literally without fail, every single person who comes into my place of work without a mask is a white person, middle aged or older. And half the time they're with their spouse, no mask, no gloves. And every single one of them - no exaggeration - has bitched about masks, the (democrat, naturally) governor, the financial state of Illinois (despite it being in the gutter for many years before this pandemic), and everything else under the sun. Every single other person who has come in - people of color, young people, and plenty of white people young and old, don't get me wrong - has worn a mask. But the only people not wearing them are, I can only gauge from their rhetoric, white Trump supporters. (How do I know this? It's a small rural town. People talk. A LOT.)

Obviously there are exceptions to that, as I just acknowledged some of them. But the split between who's wearing them and who's not around here, and who's taking it seriously and who isn't, is very interesting to me.

Sorry not sorry... just venting. Dealing with shortness of breath the last few days and the anxiety this is inducing is only making it worse. 4 people standing in the office now (plus me, plus my boss, I'm the only one with a mask). The office is like 15 x 10. I gotta wipe everything down several times an hour. I'm almost out of wipes. (EDIT: And there's a sign on the front door saying only one person at a time is allowed in. Okay.)

(And I know at least one person on my ignore list will call me a race-baiter or a racist. It's cool. I'm not, but everyone's entitled to their opinion)

I live in a small town too and I see the exact same thing. So many people not taking this seriously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 13, 2020, 03:31:02 PM

I'm sorry about your anxiety Katt. Hope you can get that in check as time goes on...Don't read the news and you should be fine.  :hat

I hate to say it, but as more of the population gets tested, the numbers will go up. What we should be worrying about is the death numbers, and if they're messing with those data numbers, we don't really know for sure how many people died of covid exactly.

At this point, we all might as well encase ourselves in a giant bubble.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 13, 2020, 03:51:28 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 13, 2020, 01:52:05 PM

Saw a report on restaurants in other countries. Why would anyone go out to eat like this?

(https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20200513&t=2&i=1518518762&w=780&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2020-05-13T172610Z_35578_MRPRC2CKG9Y71FQ_RTRMADP_0_HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS-THAILAND)

In large cities with huge population density in Asia it's very common to go out for dinner because a) it's usually cheaper than cooking at home and b) lots of people don't even have the facilities to cook at home. It''s very common for people to sit at tables with random strangers and yet mind their own business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 13, 2020, 04:09:11 PM

https://calgaryherald.com/cannabis/cannabis-shows-promise-blocking-coronavirus-infection-alberta-researcher/ (https://calgaryherald.com/cannabis/cannabis-shows-promise-blocking-coronavirus-infection-alberta-researcher/)

 :yarr

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 13, 2020, 04:27:58 PM

Excellent.  I am doing my part to help my body fight off this horrible virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 13, 2020, 04:47:08 PM

Quote from: Elite on May 13, 2020, 03:51:28 PM

In large cities with huge population density in Asia it's very common to go out for dinner because a) it's usually cheaper than cooking at home and b) lots of people don't even have the facilities to cook at home. It''s very common for people to sit at tables with random strangers and yet mind their own business.

That sucks. Is that part of the reason this thread exists?

And that picture might not be the best one for my point. I've seen other pictures where it looked like the people were there together, and still separated by a plastic shield.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 13, 2020, 04:48:32 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 13, 2020, 11:24:20 AM

And on a related note (to the point about families being realistic), allow me to vent for a second.  He's a 12-year-old boy and all that that entails.  Boogers, not a lot of hand-washing, dogs, etc. etc.   We've been pretty diligent about that stuff, not going out, masks when we do, distancing... we've even, with court approval, limited his time with his dad (his wife works in the medical field) until we could be certain of the status of their household (Dad wouldn't tell us for several weeks what she did in the medical field; our son said she's a doctor or a nurse - I've talked to her once; she ain't no doctor or nurse - but we weren't clear what her exposure was).  He finally went over there this weekend, first time in about a month and a half, and....     they went out for flowers (the whole family).  They went visiting family.  They went shopping.   No masks, no gloves, no hand sanitizer... WTF?   Back to square one with him to teach him diligence, and first thing out of his mouth?   Any guesses? Any takers?    "Why?  Dad didn't make me do this stuff."

I really feel bad reading this. This is very sad. I can totally relate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 13, 2020, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 13, 2020, 04:47:08 PM

Quote from: Elite on May 13, 2020, 03:51:28 PM

In large cities with huge population density in Asia it's very common to go out for dinner because a) it's usually cheaper than cooking at home and b) lots of people don't even have the facilities to cook at home. It''s very common for people to sit at tables with random strangers and yet mind their own business.

That sucks. Is that part of the reason this thread exists?

And that picture might not be the best one for my point. I've seen other pictures where it looked like the people were there together, and still separated by a plastic shield.

Oh, maybe they are together and still separated by a screen. Hard to tell from a picture.

And 'part of the reason this thread exists' - sure, though I thought the general consensus was the virus originated on a Chinese wet market where they keep lots of animals in condensed space, thus making it easier for deadly mutations of viruses to spread to humans. (That or it was man-made in a lab :) ) Obviously in dense population areas like large cities a virus could spread easier and more quickly than in for example a rural country.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on May 13, 2020, 05:35:42 PM

Wisconsin's Supreme Court just overruled the Governors stay at home extension, so the state might be open for business as early as tomorrow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Volante99 on May 13, 2020, 08:12:38 PM

Minnesota Governor didn’t extend the stay at home order. Starting Monday basically everything is open for business except for restaurants, gyms and hair salons (which will be opening June 1). All this when deaths continue to climb.

He caved but with Iowa, Dakotas, and now Wisconsin opening, he didn’t have much choice.

I didn’t get my public health policy degree from Trump University but I’m going to guess this is going to get bad...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 04:15:28 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 13, 2020, 05:13:41 PM

Oh, maybe they are together and still separated by a screen. Hard to tell from a picture.

And 'part of the reason this thread exists' - sure, though I thought the general consensus was the virus originated on a Chinese wet market where they keep lots of animals in condensed space, thus making it easier for deadly mutations of viruses to spread to humans. (That or it was man-made in a lab :) ) Obviously in dense population areas like large cities a virus could spread easier and more quickly than in for example a rural country.

CoVID-19 = Cow Virus of Immune Deficiency. You have to sop meat consumption ASAP.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 14, 2020, 04:24:58 AM

That's not absolutely what the acronym Covid stands for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 04:44:39 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 14, 2020, 04:24:58 AM

That's not absolutely what the acronym Covid stands for.

Coronavirus = Carnivorous

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 14, 2020, 04:58:58 AM

Of course you can make up anything you like if you really want to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 05:15:07 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2020, 04:58:58 AM

Of course you can make up anything you like if you really want to.

You cannot make up the fact this has gone too far:

Quote from: Pythagoras

As long as Man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings, he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 14, 2020, 05:21:56 AM

Okay, but that's a different discussion altogether. For the record, I do agree with the idea that mankind's destructive attitude (not everybody, but in general) towards nature and other animals - basically our homeplanet - is not the way to go forward. That Pythagoras supposedly said/wrote something similar over 2000 years ago doesn't really matter in that sense.

That coronavirus came as a result of this destructive behaviour - lots of different living animals stuck in cages close to each other (something that's repulsive in and of itself as far as I'm concerned) - should be a wake-up call. Unfortunately, it didn't really turn out to be a 'wake-up call' after SARS got into the world via the same route.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 05:35:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2020, 05:21:56 AM

Okay, but that's a different discussion altogether. For the record, I do agree with the idea that mankind's destructive attitude (not everybody, but in general) towards nature and other animals - basically our homeplanet - is not the way to go forward. That Pythagoras supposedly said/wrote something similar over 2000 years ago doesn't really matter in that sense.

That coronavirus came as a result of this destructive behaviour - lots of different living animals stuck in cages close to each other (something that's repulsive in and of itself as far as I'm concerned) - should be a wake-up call. Unfortunately, it didn't really turn out to be a 'wake-up call' after SARS got into the world via the same route.

It's Law of Consequences at work. Pythagoras knew this. When you consume meat you're taking a life away from a lower living being -- you then create the exact required conditions within your physical body for a virus to eat you from inside the same way you have consumed an animal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 05:36:55 AM

The stay-at-home orders were never meant to be enough to stop the spread of Covid, only to slow it so that our medical system doesn't get overwhelmed. In those states where hospitals are largely sitting empty, doesn't it make sense to allow things to open up a little bit?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 14, 2020, 05:41:40 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 05:35:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2020, 05:21:56 AM

Okay, but that's a different discussion altogether. For the record, I do agree with the idea that mankind's destructive attitude (not everybody, but in general) towards nature and other animals - basically our homeplanet - is not the way to go forward. That Pythagoras supposedly said/wrote something similar over 2000 years ago doesn't really matter in that sense.

That coronavirus came as a result of this destructive behaviour - lots of different living animals stuck in cages close to each other (something that's repulsive in and of itself as far as I'm concerned) - should be a wake-up call. Unfortunately, it didn't really turn out to be a 'wake-up call' after SARS got into the world via the same route.

It's Law of Consequences at work. Pythagoras knew this. When you consume meat you're taking a life away from a lower living being -- you then create the exact required conditions within your physical body for a virus to eat you from inside the same way you have consumed an animal.

So, why is COVID a uniquely human phenomenon?  There are many species in the animal kingdom that consume other animals.  If consuming meat is the "exact" criteria/condition required for the body to be susceptible to a virus the way you outline, please explain why such virus' are not more prevalent in the animal kingdom?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 14, 2020, 05:45:51 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 05:36:55 AM

The stay-at-home orders were never meant to be enough to stop the spread of Covid, only to slow it so that our medical system doesn't get overwhelmed. In those states where hospitals are largely sitting empty, doesn't it make sense to allow things to open up a little bit?

This guys twitter video seems to have gone viral kind of saying the same thing https://twitter.com/stoolpresidente/status/1260721488241418240 (https://twitter.com/stoolpresidente/status/1260721488241418240)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:00:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 14, 2020, 05:41:40 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 05:35:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2020, 05:21:56 AM

Okay, but that's a different discussion altogether. For the record, I do agree with the idea that mankind's destructive attitude (not everybody, but in general) towards nature and other animals - basically our homeplanet - is not the way to go forward. That Pythagoras supposedly said/wrote something similar over 2000 years ago doesn't really matter in that sense.

That coronavirus came as a result of this destructive behaviour - lots of different living animals stuck in cages close to each other (something that's repulsive in and of itself as far as I'm concerned) - should be a wake-up call. Unfortunately, it didn't really turn out to be a 'wake-up call' after SARS got into the world via the same route.

It's Law of Consequences at work. Pythagoras knew this. When you consume meat you're taking a life away from a lower living being -- you then create the exact required conditions within your physical body for a virus to eat you from inside the same way you have consumed an animal.

So, why is COVID a uniquely human phenomenon?  There are many species in the animal kingdom that consume other animals.  If consuming meat is the "exact" criteria/condition required for the body to be susceptible to a virus the way you outline, please explain why such virus' are not more prevalent in the animal kingdom?

Carnivorous animals have enough specific deceases, but in this case immune deficiency in humans has been obtained through the years of antibiotics consumption along with the meat, which made the immune system weak to the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 06:22:47 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:00:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 14, 2020, 05:41:40 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 05:35:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2020, 05:21:56 AM

Okay, but that's a different discussion altogether. For the record, I do agree with the idea that mankind's destructive attitude (not everybody, but in general) towards nature and other animals - basically our homeplanet - is not the way to go forward. That Pythagoras supposedly said/wrote something similar over 2000 years ago doesn't really matter in that sense.

That coronavirus came as a result of this destructive behaviour - lots of different living animals stuck in cages close to each other (something that's repulsive in and of itself as far as I'm concerned) - should be a wake-up call. Unfortunately, it didn't really turn out to be a 'wake-up call' after SARS got into the world via the same route.

It's Law of Consequences at work. Pythagoras knew this. When you consume meat you're taking a life away from a lower living being -- you then create the exact required conditions within your physical body for a virus to eat you from inside the same way you have consumed an animal.

So, why is COVID a uniquely human phenomenon?  There are many species in the animal kingdom that consume other animals.  If consuming meat is the "exact" criteria/condition required for the body to be susceptible to a virus the way you outline, please explain why such virus' are not more prevalent in the animal kingdom?

Carnivorous animals have enough specific deceases, but in this case immune deficiency in humans has been obtained through the years of antibiotics consumption along with the meat, which made the immune system weak to the virus.

This one is a double whammy. Not only are we decreasing the effectiveness of our immune systems, the antibiotics force harmful bacteria and the like to mutate more aggressively and at a faster rate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:30:19 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 06:22:47 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:00:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 14, 2020, 05:41:40 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 05:35:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2020, 05:21:56 AM

Okay, but that's a different discussion altogether. For the record, I do agree with the idea that mankind's destructive attitude (not everybody, but in general) towards nature and other animals - basically our homeplanet - is not the way to go forward. That Pythagoras supposedly said/wrote something similar over 2000 years ago doesn't really matter in that sense.

That coronavirus came as a result of this destructive behaviour - lots of different living animals stuck in cages close to each other (something that's repulsive in and of itself as far as I'm concerned) - should be a wake-up call. Unfortunately, it didn't really turn out to be a 'wake-up call' after SARS got into the world via the same route.

It's Law of Consequences at work. Pythagoras knew this. When you consume meat you're taking a life away from a lower living being -- you then create the exact required conditions within your physical body for a virus to eat you from inside the same way you have consumed an animal.

So, why is COVID a uniquely human phenomenon?  There are many species in the animal kingdom that consume other animals.  If consuming meat is the "exact" criteria/condition required for the body to be susceptible to a virus the way you outline, please explain why such virus' are not more prevalent in the animal kingdom?

Carnivorous animals have enough specific deceases, but in this case immune deficiency in humans has been obtained through the years of antibiotics consumption along with the meat, which made the immune system weak to the virus.

This one is a double whammy. Not only are we decreasing the effectiveness of our immune systems, the antibiotics force harmful bacteria and the like to mutate more aggressively and at a faster rate.

Exactly, thus the only way to stop it -- is to stop meat consumption, and there will be no need to massacre animals anymore. Hence, there will be peace, and we will complete another phase of our evolution.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 06:36:55 AM

Wouldn't stopping the overuse of antibiotics also achieve the same thing?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 14, 2020, 06:37:34 AM

Qed, as a lifelong vegetarian myself, I think you’re overselling it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:48:10 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 06:36:55 AM

Wouldn't stopping the overuse of antibiotics also achieve the same thing?

You can't stop this machine, follow the money. Only if people had the will to stop meat consumption, it would stop the market to sell it. Because if you want to produce and sell tons of it, the only way to do that is to use antibiotics.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 14, 2020, 06:50:02 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 06:37:34 AM

Qed, as a lifelong vegetarian myself, I think you’re overselling it.

Celebrate....you now know you are immune to viruses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:52:47 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 06:37:34 AM

Qed, as a lifelong vegetarian myself, I think you’re overselling it.

How can you oversell something that is not for sale? Honestly, I cannot oversell a brighter future of mankind. Like, 'peace sells... but who's buying'.  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 14, 2020, 07:01:25 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:52:47 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 06:37:34 AM

Qed, as a lifelong vegetarian myself, I think you’re overselling it.

How can you oversell something that is not for sale? Honestly, I cannot oversell a brighter future of mankind.

I'm going to take a bet, and I may be wrong, but I feel like if you keep trying to pitch vegetarianism the way you are, meat sales will go up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:04:34 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:30:19 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 06:22:47 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:00:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 14, 2020, 05:41:40 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 05:35:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2020, 05:21:56 AM

Okay, but that's a different discussion altogether. For the record, I do agree with the idea that mankind's destructive attitude (not everybody, but in general) towards nature and other animals - basically our homeplanet - is not the way to go forward. That Pythagoras supposedly said/wrote something similar over 2000 years ago doesn't really matter in that sense.

That coronavirus came as a result of this destructive behaviour - lots of different living animals stuck in cages close to each other (something that's repulsive in and of itself as far as I'm concerned) - should be a wake-up call. Unfortunately, it didn't really turn out to be a 'wake-up call' after SARS got into the world via the same route.

It's Law of Consequences at work. Pythagoras knew this. When you consume meat you're taking a life away from a lower living being -- you then create the exact required conditions within your physical body for a virus to eat you from inside the same way you have consumed an animal.

So, why is COVID a uniquely human phenomenon?  There are many species in the animal kingdom that consume other animals.  If consuming meat is the "exact" criteria/condition required for the body to be susceptible to a virus the way you outline, please explain why such virus' are not more prevalent in the animal kingdom?

Carnivorous animals have enough specific deceases, but in this case immune deficiency in humans has been obtained through the years of antibiotics consumption along with the meat, which made the immune system weak to the virus.

This one is a double whammy. Not only are we decreasing the effectiveness of our immune systems, the antibiotics force harmful bacteria and the like to mutate more aggressively and at a faster rate.

Exactly, thus the only way to stop it -- is to stop meat consumption, and there will be no need to massacre animals anymore. Hence, there will be peace, and we will complete another phase of our evolution.

No. I'll still consume beef ribs, brisket, bacon, loins, chicken, and steak from smaller farms that don't pump their product full of shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 07:12:38 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 07:01:25 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:52:47 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 06:37:34 AM

Qed, as a lifelong vegetarian myself, I think you’re overselling it.

How can you oversell something that is not for sale? Honestly, I cannot oversell a brighter future of mankind.

I'm going to take a bet, and I may be wrong, but I feel like if you keep trying to pitch vegetarianism the way you are, meat sales will go up.

At this point there's no way back. People should know the truth of why exactly this is happening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2020, 07:14:29 AM

Meat isn't bad for you and this hippie nonsense about how stopping eating meat altogether is gonna save mankind is exactly that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 07:16:24 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:04:34 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:30:19 AM

Exactly, thus the only way to stop it -- is to stop meat consumption, and there will be no need to massacre animals anymore. Hence, there will be peace, and we will complete another phase of our evolution.

No. I'll still consume beef ribs, brisket, bacon, loins, chicken, and steak from smaller farm that don't pump their product full of shit.

Now when you know the truth, from now on it's your choice and your responsibility for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:18:54 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 07:16:24 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:04:34 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:30:19 AM

Exactly, thus the only way to stop it -- is to stop meat consumption, and there will be no need to massacre animals anymore. Hence, there will be peace, and we will complete another phase of our evolution.

No. I'll still consume beef ribs, brisket, bacon, loins, chicken, and steak from smaller farms that don't pump their product full of shit.

Now when you know the truth, from now on it's your choice and your responsibility for it.

I hate you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 14, 2020, 07:27:20 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 07:01:25 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:52:47 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 06:37:34 AM

Qed, as a lifelong vegetarian myself, I think you’re overselling it.

How can you oversell something that is not for sale? Honestly, I cannot oversell a brighter future of mankind.

I'm going to take a bet, and I may be wrong, but I feel like if you keep trying to pitch vegetarianism the way you are, meat sales will go up.

qed is actually an undercover agent for Big Meat trying to drum up sales.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: qed on May 14, 2020, 07:29:05 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:18:54 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 07:16:24 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:04:34 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:30:19 AM

Exactly, thus the only way to stop it -- is to stop meat consumption, and there will be no need to massacre animals anymore. Hence, there will be peace, and we will complete another phase of our evolution.

No. I'll still consume beef ribs, brisket, bacon, loins, chicken, and steak from smaller farms that don't pump their product full of shit.

Now when you know the truth, from now on it's your choice and your responsibility for it.

I hate you.

And this is the cause of it all. You hate me because I told you the truth that animals are our brothers and sisters and that we are completely out of our minds to do this to them. Moreover, if we can do that to them, we think we could afford to do this to ourselves, hence wars and crime takes place and we can easily say we are such bastards because Nature made us this way, and probably God would have been an evil entity to create us this way. It has nothing to do with it however, as we have bastardised the main gift given to us - our free will.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2020, 07:32:19 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 07:29:05 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:18:54 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 07:16:24 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 07:04:34 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:30:19 AM

Exactly, thus the only way to stop it -- is to stop meat consumption, and there will be no need to massacre animals anymore. Hence, there will be peace, and we will complete another phase of our evolution.

No. I'll still consume beef ribs, brisket, bacon, loins, chicken, and steak from smaller farms that don't pump their product full of shit.

Now when you know the truth, from now on it's your choice and your responsibility for it.

I hate you.

And this is the cause of it all. You hate me because I told you the truth that animals are our brothers and sisters and that we are completely out of our minds to do this to them. Moreover, if we can do that to them, we think we could afford to do this to ourselves, hence wars and crime takes place and we can easily say we are such bastards because Nature made us this way, and probably God would have been an evil entity to create us this way. It has nothing to do with it however, as we have bastardised the main gift given to us - our free will.

Dr. Robert Ford, when did you become head of PETA?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 07:37:01 AM

Quote from: qed on May 14, 2020, 06:48:10 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 06:36:55 AM

Wouldn't stopping the overuse of antibiotics also achieve the same thing?

You can't stop this machine, follow the money. Only if people had the will to stop meat consumption, it would stop the market to sell it. Because if you want to produce and sell tons of it, the only way to do that is to use antibiotics.

I buy antibiotic free chicken from Aldi all the time. I buy my beef from a local farmer who raises them grass-fed and organic (though not certified). It can certainly be done. It is more difficult and expensive, sure. But if consumers started demanding it, they'd find a way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on May 14, 2020, 07:42:50 AM

I thought that writing style looked familiar :lol

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54958.0

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 14, 2020, 07:56:08 AM

I think I speak for the vast majority when I say that there's some difference between "There's nothing wrong if a consentient adult makes the free choice to eat vegan (without being a dick about it, and without other people being dicks towards said person because of it), and speaking more generally we can surely review a bit of our habits about eating meat and its worldwide commercialization, eaving aside the specific issue of wild animals being exposed to humans that generated SARS and Covid-19" and "OMG IF THE ENTIRE WORLD DOESN'T STOP TO EAT MEAT RIGHT NOW WE'RE ALL DOOMED IT'S MEATAGEDDON".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 14, 2020, 08:00:34 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on May 13, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

My Director had a staff meeting on Monday and the question was asked about returning to the office. His response was blunt, I don't see us returning this year. The majority of my co-workers work out of a building in Chicago near the lake. They are up on the 26th floor. They have no idea how to handle elevators, break rooms, etc. Not to mention a total change in how and what the cleaning crew would touch.

That's very surprising to read.  I work in the Loop and my building has all sorts of disaster protocols enacted.  Hell, they take fire safety very seriously, given that it's a 32 story building, with 2-4 drills per year. 

Right now, the building has limited entrances to the building to one, and every single person that enters has to scan their keycard.  Tenants had to provide the security desk with lists of employees that are "essential" and allowed into the building.  I was questioned (jokingly) about my daughter being with me a few weeks ago, but the intent was there - is she "essential" and did she really need to be in the building?   The cleaning crews know what to pay extra attention to.

I'm not sure what the building will do once everyone starts going downtown again, but I can see the same protocols being in place.  Guests will be limited and the building will be for employees only.   It comes down to personal and employer responsibility.  My company is working on protocols and is providing masks and sanitizer to employees once we get back into the office (our St. Louis office is already having people work there).  We will have to adhere to social distancing and wear masks in the office when necessary, and it will be up to us to reduce exposure by washing hands, etc. and staying home when ill.  Metra will be requiring passengers to wear masks on the train.

Quote from: Kattelox on May 13, 2020, 01:56:17 PM

And I know how this is going to sound, but whatever: literally without fail, every single person who comes into my place of work without a mask is a white person, middle aged or older. And half the time they're with their spouse, no mask, no gloves. And every single one of them - no exaggeration - has bitched about masks, the (democrat, naturally) governor, the financial state of Illinois (despite it being in the gutter for many years before this pandemic), and everything else under the sun. Every single other person who has come in - people of color, young people, and plenty of white people young and old, don't get me wrong - has worn a mask. But the only people not wearing them are, I can only gauge from their rhetoric, white Trump supporters. (How do I know this? It's a small rural town. People talk. A LOT.)

My wife has said the exact same thing about grocery shopping.  The ONLY people not wearing masks are middle-aged white men.  The surrounding Chicago suburbs are very conservative (while the city of Chicago is very liberal), so we're hearing the same complains about the state and its governance here as well. 

A local suburb had a protest about the governor's boating rule (only two individuals per boat - so a family of four is not allowed to be on the same boat) since we have the Chain O Lakes nearby, which is a huge boating and recreation area.  The protest was a bunch of white people holding Trump signs and banners on the side of the road.  It had nothing to do with boating and everything to do with just being pro-Trump and anti-democrat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:02:08 AM

I'm generally open to most ideas, at least at first blush, but once the tropes about "corporations" came in, and the notion that somehow abstaining from meat is a "higher evolutionary state", I'm out.    All value judgments in my opinion, and for me, if we're going to play the game of "value judgment", then "not forcing your value judgements on others" is a "higher evolutionary state".  We should all try THAT some time.   ;) :)

Mankind has been on this planet for 100,000 years give or take a couple days, and the hubris to think you've got the idea that will physically, metaphysically, and spiritually save not only all mankind, but the entire planet (and all living things on that planet) is almost Trumpian. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 14, 2020, 08:24:35 AM

Quote from: Stoodler on May 14, 2020, 08:02:08 AM

I'm generally open to most ideas, at least at first blush, but once the tropes about "corporations" came in, and the notion that somehow abstaining from meat is a "higher evolutionary state", I'm out.    All value judgments in my opinion, and for me, if we're going to play the game of "value judgment", then "not forcing your value judgements on others" is a "higher evolutionary state".  We should all try THAT some time.   ;) :)

Mankind has been on this planet for 100,000 years give or take a couple days, and the hubris to think you've got the idea that will physically, metaphysically, and spiritually save not only all mankind, but the entire planet (and all living things on that planet) is almost Trumpian.

Hey, don’t be so hard on religions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 14, 2020, 08:30:30 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:02:08 AM

I'm generally open to most ideas, at least at first blush, but once the tropes about "corporations" came in, and the notion that somehow abstaining from meat is a "higher evolutionary state", I'm out.    All value judgments in my opinion, and for me, if we're going to play the game of "value judgment", then "not forcing your value judgements on others" is a "higher evolutionary state".  We should all try THAT some time.   ;) :)

Mankind has been on this planet for 100,000 years give or take a couple days, and the hubris to think you've got the idea that will physically, metaphysically, and spiritually save not only all mankind, but the entire planet (and all living things on that planet) is almost Trumpian.

Now I hate QED even more, because he's given you the opportunity to articulate something that I 100% agree with.

 :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 14, 2020, 08:32:02 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 14, 2020, 08:24:35 AM

Quote from: Stoodler on May 14, 2020, 08:02:08 AM

I'm generally open to most ideas, at least at first blush, but once the tropes about "corporations" came in, and the notion that somehow abstaining from meat is a "higher evolutionary state", I'm out.    All value judgments in my opinion, and for me, if we're going to play the game of "value judgment", then "not forcing your value judgements on others" is a "higher evolutionary state".  We should all try THAT some time.   ;) :)

Mankind has been on this planet for 100,000 years give or take a couple days, and the hubris to think you've got the idea that will physically, metaphysically, and spiritually save not only all mankind, but the entire planet (and all living things on that planet) is almost Trumpian.

Hey, don’t be so hard on religions.

"Stoodler"

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2020, 08:35:59 AM

I see what Adami's been doing lately, but I don't get it  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 14, 2020, 08:36:58 AM

Quote from: Kuttielox on May 14, 2020, 08:35:59 AM

I see what Adami's been doing lately, but I don't get it  :lol

Im sure I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Gotta gently push back on this burgeoning notion of "Everyone who things we need another six months minimum in the bunker has it right, everyone who has it right is a Democrat or a sensible Republican, and everyone who doesn't is a mouth-breathing, selfish whackadoo Republican".   

We've gone over this before.   I don't think ANYONE has ever claimed or maintained that the death toll is or should be ZERO.  It's a balance.  My state - as blue as the ocean (or Luke Skywalker's balls, depending where your head is at) - has it's share of people that have a different view of how things should play out.   I've written about my stepson's dad - a dipshit, but not a TRUMP dipshit - and there are others around me that have a more... aggressive view of how things should play out, and in my observation, there's no real clear political correlation. 

I think we've taken for granted some things in this lockdown.  I've not gone to the office in months, but funny thing, when I call D'Angelo's, their food shows up at my door.  "Essential"?  Fuck no, I know how to cook.   The one or two times I've gone to Home Depot, I've been welcomed right in.  "Essential"?  Debatable.   People here - TAC, King, if there are others, I mean no disrespect at all - have been to varying degrees putting their lives on the line for us for months now.  I think we should not be basing our reactions on the loudest and most ridiculous of the reactors.   There's a whole 'nother level of people right below that that are fundamentally in agreement, but are handling it like good citizens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2020, 08:40:53 AM

Okay but I literally (LITERALLY!) went out of my way to say I don't think everybody who's anti-stay at home is a mouthbreathing conservative douche, but rather that every single person I have encountered of that mentality fits a certain mold. There is a stark difference and I don't see anybody completely generalizing one side or another here, but instead reporting personal experience.

Literally!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:41:04 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 14, 2020, 08:35:59 AM

I see what Adami's been doing lately, but I don't get it  :lol

I'm going to reply to him when I'm good and ready. 


("Good and ready" = "I have a witty, funny play on 'Adami' that I can incorporate into the response")  :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:43:46 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 14, 2020, 08:40:53 AM

Okay but I literally (LITERALLY!) went out of my way to say I don't think everybody who's anti-stay at home is a mouthbreathing conservative douche, but rather that every single person I have encountered of that mentality fits a certain mold. There is a stark difference and I don't see anybody completely generalizing one side or another here, but instead reporting personal experience.

Literally!

"Gently push back" = "slip in a reminder, in the event that someone is brewing a post that would drive this perfectly reasonable conversation too far out of hand".   I respect your personal experience, and it's very consistent (in a good way) with any of a 100 observations you've made, so there's no judgement.  I just get the sense we're hours not days away from a post - not by you, necessarily - that isn't so easily defended. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 14, 2020, 08:46:06 AM

Quote from: Stadler, my best friend on May 14, 2020, 08:41:04 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 14, 2020, 08:35:59 AM

I see what Adami's been doing lately, but I don't get it  :lol

I'm going to reply to him when I'm good and ready. 


("Good and ready" = "I have a witty, funny play on 'Adami' that I can incorporate into the response")  :) :) :)

Im not following.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2020, 08:47:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:43:46 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 14, 2020, 08:40:53 AM

Okay but I literally (LITERALLY!) went out of my way to say I don't think everybody who's anti-stay at home is a mouthbreathing conservative douche, but rather that every single person I have encountered of that mentality fits a certain mold. There is a stark difference and I don't see anybody completely generalizing one side or another here, but instead reporting personal experience.

Literally!

"Gently push back" = "slip in a reminder, in the event that someone is brewing a post that would drive this perfectly reasonable conversation too far out of hand".   I respect your personal experience, and it's very consistent (in a good way) with any of a 100 observations you've made, so there's no judgement.  I just get the sense we're hours not days away from a post - not by you, necessarily - that isn't so easily defended.

No, YOU are being reasonable!

 :lol :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Quote from: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Gotta gently push back on this burgeoning notion of "Everyone who things we need another six months minimum in the bunker has it right, everyone who has it right is a Democrat or a sensible Republican, and everyone who doesn't is a mouth-breathing, selfish whackadoo Libertarian".   

Hey Stadler, I fixed if for you   :lol

Quote from: Kattelox on May 14, 2020, 08:40:53 AM

Okay but I literally (LITERALLY!) went out of my way to say I don't think everybody who's anti-stay at home is a mouthbreathing libertarian douche, but rather that every single person I have encountered of that mentality fits a certain mold. There is a stark difference and I don't see anybody completely generalizing one side or another here, but instead reporting personal experience.

Literally!

I fixed yours as well Kattelox  :biggrin:

And just so both of you know, I mean this entirely in jest.  Just having some good fun because of our conversation a few pages ago.  And I'll add; both of you have very good descriptive creativity  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:01:20 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Got the call from my guy last night......cow was delivered to the processor. I bought a half cow which pre processed is 652 lbs. I'll probably end up with somewhere around 200lbs of 90/10 lean hamburger and 175-200 lbs of steaks and roasts. Just depends on the cuts and what not. All in cost is $1,100.00

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 10:08:07 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:01:20 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Got the call from my guy last night......cow was delivered to the processor. I bought a half cow which pre processed is 652 lbs. I'll probably end up with somewhere around 200lbs of 90/10 lean hamburger and 175-200 lbs of steaks and roasts. Just depends on the cuts and what not. All in cost is $1,100.00

gmillerdrake, people like you make me happy to be alive.  Thanks for all you do to feed my meat loving face  :lol

(well I totally feel like an idiot.  I thought your post meant you worked in the mean packing industry not that you were filling up your freezer. lol!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 10:08:25 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:01:20 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Got the call from my guy last night......cow was delivered to the processor. I bought a half cow which pre processed is 652 lbs. I'll probably end up with somewhere around 200lbs of 90/10 lean hamburger and 175-200 lbs of steaks and roasts. Just depends on the cuts and what not. All in cost is $1,100.00

We buy ours a quarter at a time. Debated doing half this time, but don't think we have the freezer space for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 10:29:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:01:20 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Got the call from my guy last night......cow was delivered to the processor. I bought a half cow which pre processed is 652 lbs. I'll probably end up with somewhere around 200lbs of 90/10 lean hamburger and 175-200 lbs of steaks and roasts. Just depends on the cuts and what not. All in cost is $1,100.00

To what extent do they butcher it for you, or are you literally given a half cow? My uncle used to get a half cow dropped off and he'd butcher it himself. I'd like to do that, the only thing is I wouldn't need that much burger. I eat more beef in rib and steak form by February than I do burger over the course of a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2020, 10:54:29 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Quote from: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Gotta gently push back on this burgeoning notion of "Everyone who things we need another six months minimum in the bunker has it right, everyone who has it right is a Democrat or a sensible Republican, and everyone who doesn't is a mouth-breathing, selfish whackadoo Libertarian".   

Hey Stadler, I fixed if for you   :lol

Quote from: Kattelox on May 14, 2020, 08:40:53 AM

Okay but I literally (LITERALLY!) went out of my way to say I don't think everybody who's anti-stay at home is a mouthbreathing libertarian douche, but rather that every single person I have encountered of that mentality fits a certain mold. There is a stark difference and I don't see anybody completely generalizing one side or another here, but instead reporting personal experience.

Literally!

I fixed yours as well Kattelox  :biggrin:

And just so both of you know, I mean this entirely in jest.  Just having some good fun because of our conversation a few pages ago.  And I'll add; both of you have very good descriptive creativity  :tup

 :lol :lol All taken in stride, my friend!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 14, 2020, 10:58:52 AM

Wait, so the super preachy vegetarian caused people to discuss how much they love meat?

I'm shocked!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:59:05 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 10:29:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:01:20 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Got the call from my guy last night......cow was delivered to the processor. I bought a half cow which pre processed is 652 lbs. I'll probably end up with somewhere around 200lbs of 90/10 lean hamburger and 175-200 lbs of steaks and roasts. Just depends on the cuts and what not. All in cost is $1,100.00

To what extent do they butcher it for you, or are you literally given a half cow? My uncle used to get a half cow dropped off and he'd butcher it himself. I'd like to do that, the only thing is I wouldn't need that much burger. I eat more beef in rib and steak form by February than I do burger over the course of a year.

Yes. Literal half cow. Then you just customize how you want yours processed. How thick do you want the steak cuts (I do 3/4”) I get the burger 90/10 lean....then some roasts. We usually go more burger than roast because with the growing kiddos we eat a lot of burger.

Been getting a half cow for eight or nine years now. This will last us to probably December/January.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 11:08:58 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:59:05 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 10:29:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:01:20 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Got the call from my guy last night......cow was delivered to the processor. I bought a half cow which pre processed is 652 lbs. I'll probably end up with somewhere around 200lbs of 90/10 lean hamburger and 175-200 lbs of steaks and roasts. Just depends on the cuts and what not. All in cost is $1,100.00

To what extent do they butcher it for you, or are you literally given a half cow? My uncle used to get a half cow dropped off and he'd butcher it himself. I'd like to do that, the only thing is I wouldn't need that much burger. I eat more beef in rib and steak form by February than I do burger over the course of a year.

Yes. Literal half cow. Then you just customize how you want yours processed. How thick do you want the steak cuts (I do 3/4”) I get the burger 90/10 lean....then some roasts. We usually go more burger than roast because with the growing kiddos we eat a lot of burger.

Been getting a half cow for eight or nine years now. This will last us to probably December/January.

Got it. So everything comes pre-cut. That's cool. I wouldn't mind loading up on beef at the start of the season. I just don't have the freezer capacity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 14, 2020, 11:16:56 AM

All this talk of half cows is making me want to watch Top Secret!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 11:47:34 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 11:08:58 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:59:05 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 10:29:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 10:01:20 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 09:54:25 AM

Wow, I don't comment for a few days and competely miss the meatpocalypse!

Seriously though, supply and demand.  Like what lordxizor alluded to.  I love meat, organic or otherwise.  And unless it becomes no longer available or so prohitively expensive, I will always eat meat.

Got the call from my guy last night......cow was delivered to the processor. I bought a half cow which pre processed is 652 lbs. I'll probably end up with somewhere around 200lbs of 90/10 lean hamburger and 175-200 lbs of steaks and roasts. Just depends on the cuts and what not. All in cost is $1,100.00

To what extent do they butcher it for you, or are you literally given a half cow? My uncle used to get a half cow dropped off and he'd butcher it himself. I'd like to do that, the only thing is I wouldn't need that much burger. I eat more beef in rib and steak form by February than I do burger over the course of a year.

Yes. Literal half cow. Then you just customize how you want yours processed. How thick do you want the steak cuts (I do 3/4”) I get the burger 90/10 lean....then some roasts. We usually go more burger than roast because with the growing kiddos we eat a lot of burger.

Been getting a half cow for eight or nine years now. This will last us to probably December/January.

Got it. So everything comes pre-cut. That's cool. I wouldn't mind loading up on beef at the start of the season. I just don't have the freezer capacity.

We learned the hard way on the freezer capacity. The very first time we did this we bought a FULL cow. I simply had no concept of how much meat that was  :lol  Had to scramble and buy a larger deep freeze and we ended up selling half to my in laws.

It's a good way to go if you go through a lot when it comes to price per pound. I won't know until I get the final numbers after being processed....but it's going to be somewhere around $2.80 - 3.00 a pound. That's everything from the burger to the roasts, T-bones, Porterhouse, Ribeyes. The bummer of the whole thing is dropping $1k all at once.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on May 14, 2020, 12:43:03 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 11:47:34 AM

We learned the hard way on the freezer capacity. The very first time we did this we bought a FULL cow. I simply had no concept of how much meat that was  :lol  Had to scramble and buy a larger deep freeze and we ended up selling half to my in laws.

It's a good way to go if you go through a lot when it comes to price per pound. I won't know until I get the final numbers after being processed....but it's going to be somewhere around $2.80 - 3.00 a pound. That's everything from the burger to the roasts, T-bones, Porterhouse, Ribeyes. The bummer of the whole thing is dropping $1k all at once.

So there was no way to negotiate with your supplier in making monthly payments?  Has to be all at once or get nothing at all?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 01:12:23 PM

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/wisconsin-bars-crowded-stay-at-home-order-tony-evers

Wisconsin Residents Flocked To Bars Right After The State Supreme Court Struck Down A Stay-At-Home Order

Hordes of people in Wisconsin flocked to bars Wednesday just hours after the state Supreme Court struck down the governor's stay-at-home order, a move public health experts have warned will lead to "a resurgence of [coronavirus] cases and deaths."

In a 4-3 ruling, the Wisconsin Supreme Court said Gov. Tony Evers' "cannot rely on emergency powers indefinitely," and limited his use of executive powers to issue statewide emergency orders aimed at curbing the coronavirus outbreak.

Evers first issued a monthlong stay-at-home order in response to the coronavirus on March 24, which he extended into late May. GOP state lawmakers filed a lawsuit against Evers, a Democrat, and Wisconsin's health secretary Andrea Palm over the extension, arguing that the decisions should be made in agreement with the legislature, where Republicans hold a majority.

There are more than 10,900 confirmed coronavirus cases in Wisconsin to date, and 421 deaths.

Almost immediately after the court issued its ruling Wednesday, the Tavern League of Wisconsin, the state's largest liquor license trade association, instructed its thousands of members that they can "OPEN IMMEDIATELY."

"It is legal to open your business today," the association said on Facebook. "Please review the [Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation] Guidelines as you prepare to open."

However, photos and videos show crowds of customers without face masks packed into bars, with social distancing guidelines from the WEDC not being visibly adhered to. The Tavern League of Wisconsin did not respond to a request for comment.

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2020-05/14/15/asset/80e4e795c727/sub-buzz-582-1589471647-1.png?downsize=700%3A%2A&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EX8SVuWXQAAJh9f?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EX83WBZWAAA22vF?format=jpg&name=large)

Public health experts have said that reopening businesses without robust testing and tracing, and without proper social distancing guidelines being practiced, could lead to many more deaths.

Wisconsin was not the only state where an alarming number of people were packed into bars and restaurants. In Houston, Texas, where Gov. Greg Abbott has been allowing businesses to reopen in phases, a bar called Prospect Park served a large number of customers who were drinking, eating, and smoking hookah on Wednesday night.

Twitter user @_parisimone, who did not want to share her real name and whose video of the crowded bar online went viral, said she went there for a drink with a friend, not expecting to see so many people.

"I was surprised so many people were sharing hookah with a whole respiratory disease on the loose," she told BuzzFeed News. "No one was attempting to social distance, even with the 6-feet markers on the floor."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 14, 2020, 01:20:56 PM

Well, that's potential for a lot of trouble.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 01:23:22 PM

I'm not going to encourage that type of behavior, but I applaud the Wisconsin supreme court for deciding that the governor's emergency powers shouldn't be able to be put in place indefinitely. Emergency powers are meant to be used quickly in a time frame that the full legislature can't make decisions. We're well past that time frame at this point. There need to be limits on how long a governor can make decisions without the input of the people (through their reps in the legislature). The courts probably should have given the legislature and the governor or week or so to get things in order rather than just declaring a free-for-all though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on May 14, 2020, 01:24:14 PM

We like beer.

Please don’t judge me based on this.  :D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 14, 2020, 01:24:29 PM

I'm just glad my state isn't the first to re-open.  Someone's got to get the ball rolling to re-open but I'd rather let someone else start that and see what happens. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 01:26:51 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 01:23:22 PM

I'm not going to encourage that type of behavior, but I applaud the Wisconsin supreme court for deciding that the governor's emergency powers shouldn't be able to be put in place indefinitely. Emergency powers are meant to be used quickly in a time frame that the full legislature can't make decisions. We're well past that time frame at this point. There need to be limits on how long a governor can make decisions without the input of the people (through their reps in the legislature). The courts probably should have given the legislature and the governor or week or so to get things in order rather than just declaring a free-for-all though.

I'm fine with the legal decision. I'm very disappointed in the bar owners and the crowds. I feel like this is too much. I'm not saying don't open, but this looks like any other night and as if Covid never happened or isn't still going on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 01:27:42 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 14, 2020, 01:26:51 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 01:23:22 PM

I'm not going to encourage that type of behavior, but I applaud the Wisconsin supreme court for deciding that the governor's emergency powers shouldn't be able to be put in place indefinitely. Emergency powers are meant to be used quickly in a time frame that the full legislature can't make decisions. We're well past that time frame at this point. There need to be limits on how long a governor can make decisions without the input of the people (through their reps in the legislature). The courts probably should have given the legislature and the governor or week or so to get things in order rather than just declaring a free-for-all though.

I'm fine with the legal decision. I'm very disappointed in the bar owners and the crowds. I feel like this is too much. I'm not saying don't open, but this looks like any other night and as if Covid never happened or isn't still going on.

Agreed. I would have opened the door, said "Nope", and gotten the hell out of there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 14, 2020, 01:33:18 PM

Couple of issues here:

1) The political: Every state has their own established guidelines for how the executive and legislature can address this issue, and they need to follow those rules. If the law is set up that emergency powers can be declared for 30 days, then they can only be declared for 30 days (or whatever the specific issue is here, I read it might have more to do with the Dept of Health's powers. It's not my state so I am not following closely). 

2) The funny: Tight jeans gal in the top picture and gray sweatshirt in the bottom one: HEY AM I BEING PHOTOGRAPHED?

3) The annoying. I would call out the statement "an alarming number of people were packed into bars and restaurants." At least based on those pictures, they don't looked "alarmingly packed" in. Unnecessary editorializing. There are more people (and by people I mean bums and drug addicts) alarmingly packed in to buses around here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on May 14, 2020, 02:09:23 PM

Some countries that have opened up have got increasing number of cases and had to shut down again.

Link in swedish, sorry
https://www.svd.se/vandningen-lander-som-oppnat-tvingas-ater-stanga

But it talks about:

Lebanon, who two weeks after opening up again got increasing numbers and shut down again

South Korea, who opened up nightclubs and bars but after an outbreak that happened in the bar district they are shutting down again.

Wuhan in China are getting an increase and Germany too.... no new restrictions so far I think.


Basically people would be wise to take it easy and keep their distance.

Living in Sweden I could go to bars or restaurants but I don't. Does not feel safe yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 02:38:37 PM

Apparently in Wisconsin their constitution allows for 30 day emergency declarations, but does say anything about extending it for the same reason. So that's why it got shot down. I expect there are other states in similar positions, but not all.

On the "alarming number of people" thing, I agree. Taking a shot from ground level always makes people look closer than they are. An aerial shot could have possibly shown them all a respectful 6' apart.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on May 14, 2020, 02:54:45 PM

Last week, with eased restrictions, the boardwalk in Ocean City MD opened up.  Well....from viewing a cam of Boardwalk Fries outdoor customers, and those strolling by, maybe 20% were wearing masks, and fewer wearing gloves.  Hardly any social distancing.  Expect a 'wave' on the Eastern Shore in the next 2-4 weeks.

I am confused:  why is 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' acceptable, but requiring a mask infringing on one's 'rights'?  Just asking.

(hell, for events that require a tie and jacket for entrance, I don't see the uprisings, or people shot over the requirement)

I just do not understand the lack of common sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 14, 2020, 03:14:06 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on May 14, 2020, 02:54:45 PM

Last week, with eased restrictions, the boardwalk in Ocean City MD opened up.  Well....from viewing a cam of Boardwalk Fries outdoor customers, and those strolling by, maybe 20% were wearing masks, and fewer wearing gloves.  Hardly any social distancing.  Expect a 'wave' on the Eastern Shore in the next 2-4 weeks.

I am confused:  why is 'no shirt, no service' acceptable, but requiring a mask infringing on one's 'rights'?  Just asking.

(hell, for events that require a tie and jacket for entrance, I don't see the uprisings, or people shot over the requirement)

I just do not understand the lack of common sense.

That's a very good question.  For me, it has less to do with the rule and more to do whith who is making it.  If the government makes the rule it can be enforced with arrests, fines, jail time and so on.

If a private business makes a rule, the worst they can do is kick someone out of their establishment or not provide service.  Also, as a citizen, I am free to not patronize a business if I don't like their rules and go to a different one instead.  And if enough people don't like that same rule then the business will go out of business.

It's a lot harder to do that with government and the penalties for disobedience are much harsher.  Sure you can move, but that is expensive and very time consuming.  It takes little effort for me to go to a different business to obtain a similar service.

Having said that, I know that not all businesses are angels, croney capitalism is one of the worst theats to liberty in my view, and it is rampant.

Also, just for the record, I don't think that wearing a mask is infringing on my liberty as long as I won't get fined or arrested for not doing it.  And I wear a mask every time I go into any business or public building or if I am going to be in a populated place.  I do believe in being safe and helping to flatten the curve :).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 14, 2020, 05:28:41 PM

....and yet, there have been not a few actual events of people becoming unhinged when a business tells them they have to wear a mask.  (in one instance, a man felt a store worker was rude to his wife, so he went home and got his gun to come back and shoot the employee...but that's an extreme case).   

And I hate to beat that drum again, but in most (not all) cases, these are the same swath of the population that swore up and down that a business had every right to make rules for their own store and that anyone was free not to visit that establishment if it wasn't to their liking. 

You have to admit, there is a certain level of hypocrisy that seems to be more prevalent than usual on some of these situations. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 15, 2020, 07:47:51 AM

There may be a more prevalent level of hypocrisy, but from where I'm sitting, my epiphany is that hypocrisy is like a Monet painting; it seems to get clearer the farther you are from it.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 15, 2020, 08:21:52 AM

Quote from: jammindude on May 14, 2020, 05:28:41 PM

....and yet, there have been not a few actual events of people becoming unhinged when a business tells them they have to wear a mask.  (in one instance, a man felt a store worker was rude to his wife, so he went home and got his gun to come back and shoot the employee...but that's an extreme case).   

And I hate to beat that drum again, but in most (not all) cases, these are the same swath of the population that swore up and down that a business had every right to make rules for their own store and that anyone was free not to visit that establishment if it wasn't to their liking. 

You have to admit, there is a certain level of hypocrisy that seems to be more prevalent than usual on some of these situations.

I can't answer for anyone else's behavior except my own, and I don't do this sort of thing.  But yeah, you're right, that is pretty hypocritical.  And yes, I've seen examples of that too, and from both sides of the isle depending on the circumstance, I might add.

But, as a guy who lives his life according to first principles, I stand by what I wrote.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TheSilentHam on May 15, 2020, 09:58:21 AM

Trying to openly discuss here, not being tribal: Really, unless it is the same individual or official organization statement actually demonstrating both attitudes/behaviors, it isn't yet hypocrisy.   Attaching a soft label to two different individuals, and them calling hypocrisy based on that label, well that is something else  Edit:  And I've been guilty of it too

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 15, 2020, 12:13:02 PM

Quote from: TheSilentHam on May 15, 2020, 09:58:21 AM

Trying to openly discuss here, not being tribal: Really, unless it is the same individual or official organization statement actually demonstrating both attitudes/behaviors, it isn't yet hypocrisy.   Attaching a soft label to two different individuals, and them calling hypocrisy based on that label, well that is something else  Edit:  And I've been guilty of it too

You're right, it isn't fair to blanket that.  Individuals are flawed and we all make mistakes sometimes.  And having a bad day and other factors can also influence how we behave, which on later reflection we may regret.

I'm pretty good at living by the principles I've adopted, but I'm certainly not perfect at it and bad behavior has certainly stared me in the face from time to time and probably made me look like a hypocrite to some.

Also, this coronavirus has put a lot of unexpected stress on virtually everyone.  It's made enemies of friends, widened the political divide, pointed out gaping flaws in government and business with lazer focus.  I think kindness and allowing people a long rope before we metaphorically hang them is a better approach.  And I include myself as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 15, 2020, 12:15:29 PM

Anyone else leery about taking a vaccine for this virus if/when it comes out? I'm not an anti vax person at all.....our family does vaccinate.....but the pressure that is on these companies to get one figured out is immense and there really can't be that much data on the vaccine to assure just how safe it is? I'm sorry to say, but lets say there's a vaccine available next Jan/Feb.....I'm not taking it. There's just not enough time invested to assure the effects of it on my or my kids bodies won't do more harm than good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 15, 2020, 12:20:07 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 15, 2020, 12:15:29 PM

Anyone else leery about taking a vaccine for this virus if/when it comes out? I'm not an anti vax person at all.....our family does vaccinate.....but the pressure that is on these companies to get one figured out is immense and there really can't be that much data on the vaccine to assure just how safe it is? I'm sorry to say, but lets say there's a vaccine available next Jan/Feb.....I'm not taking it. There's just not enough time invested to assure the effects of it on my or my kids bodies won't do more harm than good.

I'll be taking it. I'd gather the science behind vaccines is pretty stable, and it's a matter of tweaking it to fit the current virus. I'd be curious to see Millah's take on this though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 15, 2020, 12:21:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 15, 2020, 12:15:29 PM

Anyone else leery about taking a vaccine for this virus if/when it comes out? I'm not an anti vax person at all.....our family does vaccinate.....but the pressure that is on these companies to get one figured out is immense and there really can't be that much data on the vaccine to assure just how safe it is? I'm sorry to say, but lets say there's a vaccine available next Jan/Feb.....I'm not taking it. There's just not enough time invested to assure the effects of it on my or my kids bodies won't do more harm than good.

I'll take it. Vaccines get created at this rate regularly, they just don't have the world's focus. The rigors of getting a vaccine to market are really tough, and the doctors/scientists/chemists essential to their creation are well versed. I trust the process.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 15, 2020, 01:09:55 PM

Sadly, I think we'll see more stories like this eventually. Once skeptics get sick, it's amazing how their tune changes. These are the people that might help turn opinion. Sadly, they have to get sick first.

Dude thought it was overblown or some government ploy(??????). Now he and his wife have it and she has been on a ventilator for 3 weeks.

https://www.wptv.com/news/coronavirus/jupiter-man-skeptical-of-coronavirus-gets-infected-changes-opinion

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 15, 2020, 01:20:32 PM

^^ I saw the link and thought, "Jupiter Man! That's a new one!  :lol" and then I clicked on it... AND IT'S FLORIDA MAN TOO!!  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on May 15, 2020, 01:42:20 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 15, 2020, 01:20:32 PM

^^ I saw the link and thought, "Jupiter Man! That's a new one!  :lol" and then I clicked on it... AND IT'S FLORIDA MAN TOO!!  :rollin

Oh, Florida Man.  Bless your heart.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 15, 2020, 01:51:32 PM

Don't forget the NY barber who continued to work/defy stay at home orders who now has covid and has passed it on to many who just couldn't wait to get a hair cut.   ::)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-barber-diagnosed-coronavirus-kingston-stay-open-illicitly-cut-hair/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 15, 2020, 02:06:18 PM

I'm curious... gov'ts have the right to enforce laws with fines/penalties for not wearing a seatbelt, right?  So why not for not wearing a mask?  I equate masks to seatbelts at this point in time.  99% of the time, a seatbelt is unnecessary.  But that one time that I'll need it, I'm damn thankful I put it on.  It's paramount for my own protection those few times I need(ed) it.

The difference with masks is that masks also offers some level of protection to dozens, hundreds, or thousands of other people.  The fuss over face masks is remarkable.  Seen on FB today:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EX7lYMzXsAIXkhO.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 15, 2020, 02:41:38 PM

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 15, 2020, 02:59:00 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on May 15, 2020, 01:09:55 PM

Sadly, I think we'll see more stories like this eventually. Once skeptics get sick, it's amazing how their tune changes. These are the people that might help turn opinion. Sadly, they have to get sick first.

Well, look no further than Boris Johnson.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 16, 2020, 08:01:47 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 15, 2020, 02:06:18 PM

I'm curious... gov'ts have the right to enforce laws with fines/penalties for not wearing a seatbelt, right?  So why not for not wearing a mask? 

Of course they have the right to enforce laws for wearing masks. I don't think there are any states that have made masks required, though.

I'm not convinced they're really doing all that much. People are constantly fiddling with them because they're uncomfortable, causing them to touch their face much more than they otherwise would. They're often just dangling there, not tight enough. A significant portion of people have their nose hanging out. I personally only wear one when I'm required to do so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 16, 2020, 06:22:35 PM

Alice Cooper recorded a new song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-OYHTjypo

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 16, 2020, 06:27:31 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 16, 2020, 06:22:35 PM

Alice Cooper recorded a new song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-OYHTjypo

So did Randy Newman! :neverusethis:

https://open.spotify.com/album/0em1nH79iVvaQRXjYIwakf?si=hVRmfo9rRaaodq627Mvdqg

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 16, 2020, 06:29:27 PM

You can post in your sleep? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 16, 2020, 06:30:47 PM

I tried and failed. Gonna try again in an hour  :lol it's that 'rona

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 16, 2020, 06:33:04 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 16, 2020, 06:27:31 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 16, 2020, 06:22:35 PM

Alice Cooper recorded a new song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-OYHTjypo

So did Randy Newman! :neverusethis:

https://open.spotify.com/album/0em1nH79iVvaQRXjYIwakf?si=hVRmfo9rRaaodq627Mvdqg

That's really nice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 17, 2020, 05:04:50 AM

A little levity

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49904548681_6b781d6dda_h.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49904027768_649a9704f3_h.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on May 17, 2020, 05:30:34 AM

I was looking at Alabama and Florida beach cams yesterday.  Lots of folks on the beach and in the pools. If next weekend has nice weather the beaches will be packed.  The wife and I are planning to go the last week of June but will hold off on reservations for now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on May 17, 2020, 05:35:07 AM

We cancelled our trip to Florida which is a bummer. My wife didn't feel comfortable going. I still wanted to go but decided to pass and just take some days off work instead and do some bike riding.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 17, 2020, 05:50:01 AM

At this rate, the 2nd wave will come in a month or so ... not the Fall.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 17, 2020, 06:00:36 AM

Absolutely. Stories of mass gatherings, packed bars, beaches full of people etc. is the exact opposite of what should happen. It's probably going to be a disaster, but who knows?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 17, 2020, 06:17:20 AM

Am I the only one who isn't itching to go outside?

The things I love the most are concerts and travelling, if concerts are not happening and it's risky to travel, it's not that a walk in the park is gonna change my life or make up for a couple of months of lockdown. I'll gladly continue to stay at home and I hope the company will ask us to come back (right now we're working at home) at the latest possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 17, 2020, 07:23:41 AM

Try cycling. You'll be surprised what you find!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 17, 2020, 08:04:53 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 17, 2020, 06:17:20 AM

Am I the only one who isn't itching to go outside?

The things I love the most are concerts and travelling, if concerts are not happening and it's risky to travel, it's not that a walk in the park is gonna change my life or make up for a couple of months of lockdown. I'll gladly continue to stay at home and I hope the company will ask us to come back (right now we're working at home) at the latest possible.

I like to go outside when the weather is nice.  Get some fresh air, feel the sun if it's out, etc.  And that's supposed to be really good for you too.  However, I'm not doing it if there are people everywhere.  If there's a place I can go for a walk mostly alone, that's what I do.  Otherwise, I'll pass.

But yeah - concerts are what I miss the absolute most.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

I keep a spread sheet of every concert I've ever gone to (although I think a few free ones from the 90's are missing, but I didn't have ticket stubs when I started the list as a reminder of the dates), and if I end up not going to one this year, it will be the first year since 1989 that I didn't go to a single concert in a calendar year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on May 17, 2020, 08:28:14 AM

Glad I got to see a few concerts before Covid hit this year.
3 of my choosing and one with my daughter.

Miss concerts a lot but feel it's fine that almost all booked concerts have been postponed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 17, 2020, 08:41:38 AM

I'm not able to go to many shows so this doesn't change much for me, other than basically guaranteeing I won't go to a show until at the very least a year and a half from now. :/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on May 17, 2020, 08:50:12 AM

The last show I saw was in November 2019, enjoyed it a ton. There was nothing interesting this winter but I looked forward to Soen and Nightwish this month. It'll be wonderful to visit at least one concert this year, but I honestly doubt it'll happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 17, 2020, 09:01:12 AM

I'm basically assuming that it will be spring 2021 before any large events take place again. That way if it happens sooner I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 17, 2020, 09:51:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 17, 2020, 09:01:12 AM

I'm basically assuming that it will be spring 2021 before any large events take place again. That way if it happens sooner I'll be pleasantly surprised.

A good way to look at it.  Better to have low expectations in this case.  In the meantime, I'll be enjoying the online content that a lot of artists have been putting out.

Quote from: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

I keep a spread sheet of every concert I've ever gone to (although I think a few free ones from the 90's are missing, but I didn't have ticket stubs when I started the list as a reminder of the dates), and if I end up not going to one this year, it will be the first year since 1989 that I didn't go to a single concert in a calendar year.

I keep a spreadsheet too. :)  I got to see Queensryche this year so there's at least one live in person show.

And I think I'll be adding the Katatonia, Leprous, and Green Carnation live stream shows to my spreadsheet.  Maybe on a separate tab, but I bought tickets for them, so they should be noted somehow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 17, 2020, 10:58:21 AM

I will not post the novel that I could to point out what an a$$hat this guy is. I think it’s widely known. Perfect example of someone who was extremely over hyped and bought into the BS about himself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 17, 2020, 11:02:17 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 17, 2020, 10:58:21 AM

I will not post the novel that I could to point out what an a$$hat this guy is. I think it’s widely known. Perfect example of someone who was extremely over hyped and bought into the BS about himself.

Who?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PixelDream on May 17, 2020, 11:22:27 AM

The last concert I saw before the lockdown was Dream Theater playing SFAM in Amsterdam. What a glorious night, I loved every moment of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 17, 2020, 11:35:42 AM

I got to see a Rush tribute band the night they announced Neil's passing and Cheap Trick a few weeks later.  Last show.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 17, 2020, 11:59:00 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

...if I end up not going to one this year, it will be the first year since 1989 that I didn't go to a single concert in a calendar year.

Crazy.

I just read Jeff Passan's article about MLB starting up. Was going to post in the MLB thread, but thought I would post it here, as it can be a reflection of the larger issue of sports resuming this year, and the multitude of crazy hoops everyone will have to jump through.

He outlines a "day in the life of an MLB'er in 2020 here:

Quote

Wake up. Grab the thermometer issued to every player in MLB and take your temperature. Just make sure to do it before eating, drinking or exercising. Then take it again. If it's over 100 degrees, self-isolate, call the team physician and get ready to take a rapid-response COVID-19 test.

If not, you can go to the stadium. If you're on the road, it can be on any of the six bus trips to the ballpark instead of the typical early-or-late options. Don't forget to open the windows. If you're at home, go to the entrance that can be used only by 101 specifically designated people. Put on a mask. Walk into the stadium. Maybe even be in uniform already. Get your temperature taken again. If it's still below 100, you're allowed in the restricted areas: the field, the training room, the weight room, the clubhouse. Or perhaps the auxiliary clubhouse, because social distancing is important, and 6 feet will separate lockers, and locker rooms just aren't big enough to handle that many people and that much space between them, so the team needs to build another.

Might be your day for a coronavirus test, since there will be a few a week, so get that saliva ready. Also could be the monthly blood test for coronavirus antibodies. Since you can't use hot tubs, cold tubs, saunas, steam rooms or cryotherapy, there's no excuse not to get to the 4:30 hitters' meeting on time. Just check whether it's on the iPad or outside. Indoor, in-person meetings don't exist anymore.

At least you can take off the mask on the field. You'll be out there plenty. It may look a little odd. No water or sports-drink jugs in the dugout. No sunflower seeds or dip. Remember? You can't spit. Or high-five. Or dap. Or hug.

It's game time. There's no lineup card exchange. They were sent via app. The manager is standing along the railing. He's not allowed to be on the steps. Other coaches are spread out -- 6 feet from one another, of course. The rest of the bench is sparsely populated. Only players likely to enter the game can be in the dugout. The rest are in the stands. The closest you can sit to anyone is with four empty seats between you and two empty rows behind you.

When the pitcher needs some grip, he'd better not lick his fingers. He has a personal rosin bag for that. The hitter who needs some tack has his own pine tar rag, too. When a hitter whacks a single to left field and gets on first base, he should skip the small talk. Socializing and fraternizing are forbidden before, during and after the game. Same with fighting. So don't be too nice to opponents, but don't be too mean, either.

Oh, and that ball that went into left. Get rid of it. If it's in play and touched by multiple players, it's no longer good. Because cleanliness is paramount. If you're playing, you're supposed to wash your hands or sanitize them every half-inning. Bullpen phone gets used? Disinfect it. Dugout phone rings? Disinfect it.

The game ends. There's no buffet, so the clubhouse attendant grabs you a pre-packaged meal. Don't bother with a cash tip. They take Venmo and PayPal, thanks. Want to eat with teammates? Social-distancing rules still apply. You could wait until you get back to the hotel and hit the private dining area or order room service. Don't even think of going out to dinner. You're not allowed to leave the hotel without approval -- period. So go back to your room, which looks the same as it did when you left -- housekeeping isn't allowed to enter -- and call it a day.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29186093/the-immensity-mlb-plan-return-daunting-health-safety-protocol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 17, 2020, 12:14:31 PM

Gebuz... why even bother?  Sounds exciting as hell to watch!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on May 17, 2020, 12:17:51 PM

Missing Big Big Train tonight. I was so pumped for this show. More than any show I've seen in a long time because they don't come to North America ever. :sad:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 17, 2020, 12:20:37 PM

I would say the same for Firewind/Primal Fear/Symphony-X that I was supposed to see a few days ago.  :sadpanda:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 17, 2020, 12:39:32 PM

Quote from: Lethean on May 17, 2020, 09:51:39 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

I keep a spread sheet of every concert I've ever gone to (although I think a few free ones from the 90's are missing, but I didn't have ticket stubs when I started the list as a reminder of the dates), and if I end up not going to one this year, it will be the first year since 1989 that I didn't go to a single concert in a calendar year.

I keep a spreadsheet too. :)  I got to see Queensryche this year so there's at least one live in person show.

I also keep a document on my concerts as I just delete the lines from them as they get cancelled.  Also not expecting to see another concert this year.  I was just telling my friend last night about this, I am really happy I went to a few shows to start the year that I probably wouldn't of if I wasn't bored and the shows weren't so local.  My last show was March 10th, Skillet... a band I hardly knew at all and went on a whim.  Not I sit back and watch my concert videos cherishing those moments of experiencing those live shows that I didn't know the music at the time, but I do now. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 17, 2020, 12:39:32 PM

Quote from: PixelDream on May 17, 2020, 11:22:27 AM

The last concert I saw before the lockdown was Dream Theater playing SFAM in Amsterdam. What a glorious night, I loved every moment of it.

I was there too!

And then I saw Leprous a few weeks later.

I have tickets for Ulver (cancelled - probably postponed?), Queen (I'd go with my mom, postponed to next year), Steven Wilson (nothing as of yet, but probably going to be cancelled), and was planning on going to ProgPower Europe, as I do every year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 17, 2020, 12:59:19 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 17, 2020, 12:14:31 PM

Gebuz... why even bother?  Sounds exciting as hell to watch!

Exactly. I think it's time for the MLB, NHL and NBA to come to grips with the fact that the remainder of this season is done. focus on assuring there will be a next season and chalk this one up to 'This Fu%king Sucks' and move on

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 17, 2020, 01:53:30 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 17, 2020, 12:59:19 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 17, 2020, 12:14:31 PM

Gebuz... why even bother?  Sounds exciting as hell to watch!

Exactly. I think it's time for the MLB, NHL and NBA to come to grips with the fact that the remainder of this season is done. focus on assuring there will be a next season and chalk this one up to 'This Fu%king Sucks' and move on

Easy to say when you're not the one losing billions of dollars. NHL and NBA for sure should give up on any hope of completing their seasons. MLB has a chance, but that protocol doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 17, 2020, 02:08:07 PM

Quote

Teams say salvaging a season delayed by the coronavirus pandemic would still cause a $4 billion loss and would give major league players 89% of revenue.

Quote

MLB players say pay shouldn't be cut if empty ballparks...

The MLB players union and the owners have historically gotten along so well and never had disagreements about player pay and contracts, so I imagine they will work together to get this resolved quickly.


This is going to get worse before it gets any better. And with 20% unemployment and so much financial uncertainly in our communities, I wonder how much people will care if millionaire players and billionaire owners can't agree on how to get baseball started.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 17, 2020, 03:15:21 PM

are pro athletes still getting paid? I wonder if contracts  even have provisions for situations like these

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2020, 03:38:05 PM

I'm watching NASCAR. Dammit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 17, 2020, 08:08:01 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 17, 2020, 03:15:21 PM

are pro athletes still getting paid? I wonder if contracts  even have provisions for situations like these

I'd imagine any contract with that level of money involved has some variation of a force majeure clause. Any of the legal minded peeps care to speculate how those would take shape?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 17, 2020, 08:23:20 PM

So a neighbor friend of mine and I got tickets to go see the double headliner of Megadeth and Lamb of God in July.  It probably won't happen now.   Which is a shame, because I haven't had the opportunity to see many concerts unfortunately.

When I was in high school a good friend of mine got tickets to go see Metallica.  Then my friend had a bad acid trip and stripped off all his clothes at school and ran through the halls screaming that there was a swarm of bees after him.  After his parents found out he had a problem, he was immediately shipped off to a rehab facility.  So we never got to go to the concert.

The next year another friend of mine and I got tickets to go see Ozzy.  On the night of the concert, we were dropped off by my parents and then found out it was cancelled because Ozzy injured his foot.  So we never got to go to the concert.

I did get to see Gary Hoey with my younger brother when I was 20 and that was really cool.

Then, after I was married, my wife and I got tickets to go see Aaron Tippin (country).  But before the concert came, my wife got pregnant and had morning sickness a lot and she just didn't feel up to going.  So we never got to go to the concert.

My younger brother and I did get to go see Dream Theater in 2016 to see the Astonishing!

And that's the last concert I've been to.  And it is looking like I will be able to add Megadeth to my list of concerts I won't actually get to see despite having tickets.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2020, 08:28:51 PM

I had tickets for Alice Cooper in June, but those tickets have already been refunded.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 17, 2020, 08:41:32 PM

[quote

Quote from: TAC on May 17, 2020, 08:28:51 PM

My younger brother and I did get to go see Dream Theater in 2016 to see the Astonishing!

Too bad something didn’t come up to force you to miss this one. Of all the ones you lost, this would’ve been the most expendable of the bunch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 08:14:59 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

I keep a spread sheet of every concert I've ever gone to (although I think a few free ones from the 90's are missing, but I didn't have ticket stubs when I started the list as a reminder of the dates), and if I end up not going to one this year, it will be the first year since 1989 that I didn't go to a single concert in a calendar year.

Setlist.fm is your friend.   That would have been the same for me, except "1982", but I snuck in "Squeeze" before the shit hit the fan. 

Re: MLB, one of my colleagues' son is a pitcher that dances between AAA and the big show; I'll ask him (though I can already tell you that at the minor league level, those guys are not being paid by contract; they get paid per game.  If the owner's did something nice, then there's that, but not by contract.   As for force majeure, that doesn't guarantee "pay", it just says that a delay can't be used as evidence of default.   It also, at least in construction contracts, doesn't usually remove the obligation to pay.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 09:51:41 AM

Ok, thanks  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 18, 2020, 10:21:08 AM

These are the people that are going to end up prolonging this ordeal for everyone.

Stupid bitch: https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/glzv0b/karen_upset_because_shes_not_allowed_to_shop/

Piece of shit asshole: https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/glgkl5/cart_taken_for_not_having_a_mask_publicfreakout/
          - Here's the asshole's rebuttal after the internet crucified him: https://streamable.com/bhyldq

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:35:09 AM

I don't know if someone not wearing a mask makes them a "Studpi bitch/PoS asshole. But posting their crap online probably does.

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 10:21:08 AM

Stupid bitch: https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/glzv0b/karen_upset_because_shes_not_allowed_to_shop/

Quote

The Karen’s have a buildup of complaints they need to get out since they haven’t been able to ask for managers for a couple months now.

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2020, 10:39:52 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Calm down there Richard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 10:42:00 AM

 :lol

That's Mr. Dick, thank you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Karen isn't a descriptor of someone's race, culture, nationality, age, or religion. It is a descriptor based on their actions and attitude (and hairstyle). I read an article about how it was sexist. But it seemed like the author is the type of person who thinks everything is sexist, so I took it with a grain of salt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 10:49:36 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Karen isn't a descriptor of someone's race, culture, nationality, age, or religion. It is a descriptor based on their actions and attitude (and hairstyle). I read an article about how it was sexist. But it seemed like the author is the type of person who thinks everything is sexist, so I took it with a grain of salt.

It's only ever applied to white women, though, so it is. It's a general descriptor. It's exactly like a bigoted white person expressing their disdain for black people and using the word 'Tyrone' or 'Jamal' in their screeds. Karen specifically refers to white women. Find any article that talks about "Karens" - it's always a white woman. It's not okay no matter how you slice it, that's my point, it just causes more problems than it solves (which is nothing) because it devolves into namecalling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 10:52:07 AM

Tyrone disagrees

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 10:21:08 AM

These are the people that are going to end up prolonging this ordeal for everyone.

Stupid bitch: https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/glzv0b/karen_upset_because_shes_not_allowed_to_shop/

Piece of shit asshole: https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/glgkl5/cart_taken_for_not_having_a_mask_publicfreakout/
          - Here's the asshole's rebuttal after the internet crucified him: https://streamable.com/bhyldq

All I could think of when listening to that first video was Cecily Strong's "The Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party" on SNL.  Same voice, same inflection, same loose grasp on BASIC FUCKING CONCEPTS WE SHOULD ALL KNOW.  All she had to do was call that guy "Colin" and it would have been perfect.

I hate these discussions, because it's too easy to extrapolate other things (this stuff is not limited to mouth-breathing, Trump-supporting deplorables; it goes both ways), but for me the depressing part of all of it is the notion that "freedom" somehow means "fuck you to everyone else".  I'm not talking about just COVID, but in general.  If someone came into their house, they'd be the first people screaming about violation of rights, but they think their little bubble of "freedom" extends around them where ever they go.  I'm, basically, a Libertarian when it comes to this stuff, but my "rights" end the second I cross the threshold into YOUR store.   

People.  I need an island.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 10:54:43 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:49:36 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Karen isn't a descriptor of someone's race, culture, nationality, age, or religion. It is a descriptor based on their actions and attitude (and hairstyle). I read an article about how it was sexist. But it seemed like the author is the type of person who thinks everything is sexist, so I took it with a grain of salt.

It's only ever applied to white women, though, so it is. It's a general descriptor. It's exactly like a bigoted white person expressing their disdain for black people and using the word 'Tyrone' or 'Jamal' in their screeds. Karen specifically refers to white women. Find any article that talks about "Karens" - it's always a white woman. It's not okay no matter how you slice it.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way but that's just me, we've all got opinions yadda yadda it's fine live and let live ;D ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:55:20 AM

That's true, because in our society, it is ok to poke fun at white people. Not saying it's right, it's just how it is.

It's also people expressing disdain about someone because of their attitude who happens to be white, not expressing disdain about someone because they are white.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 10:56:31 AM

I think this is a lot of justification for prejudice towards one set of people. Odd that one of the most liberal people I know is defending this sort of practice; in a roundabout way, the far left is much like the far right. But that's my two cents... I'll tap out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 10:56:55 AM

I don't think it mocks so much white people as it does white privalege.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 10:57:00 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 10:54:43 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:49:36 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Karen isn't a descriptor of someone's race, culture, nationality, age, or religion. It is a descriptor based on their actions and attitude (and hairstyle). I read an article about how it was sexist. But it seemed like the author is the type of person who thinks everything is sexist, so I took it with a grain of salt.

It's only ever applied to white women, though, so it is. It's a general descriptor. It's exactly like a bigoted white person expressing their disdain for black people and using the word 'Tyrone' or 'Jamal' in their screeds. Karen specifically refers to white women. Find any article that talks about "Karens" - it's always a white woman. It's not okay no matter how you slice it.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way but that's just me, we've all got opinions yadda yadda it's fine live and let live ;D ;)

Brother, you're so liberal it makes me not want to be liberal. I'll just be completely blunt with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 18, 2020, 10:59:54 AM

I hate the term "Karen" just because I happen to know a number of women named Karen, and every one of them is a very cool, caring, and considerate person.  Somehow the name became a term which is synonymous with entitled uppity bitches, and it annoys the fuck out of me.

"Boomer" is almost as bad, but at least it's not co-opting an actual name.

(https://i.imgur.com/GnY3pBa.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 11:00:04 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:49:36 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Karen isn't a descriptor of someone's race, culture, nationality, age, or religion. It is a descriptor based on their actions and attitude (and hairstyle). I read an article about how it was sexist. But it seemed like the author is the type of person who thinks everything is sexist, so I took it with a grain of salt.

It's only ever applied to white women, though, so it is. It's a general descriptor. It's exactly like a bigoted white person expressing their disdain for black people and using the word 'Tyrone' or 'Jamal' in their screeds. Karen specifically refers to white women. Find any article that talks about "Karens" - it's always a white woman. It's not okay no matter how you slice it, that's my point, it just causes more problems than it solves (which is nothing) because it devolves into namecalling.

Well, fundamentally, you're right, though.  Because even the explanation doesn't work in reverse.   It's the same with "Brad's", the loud, shirtless (but with abs!) dumb (and inexorably white) frat boy on spring break.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 11:02:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 11:00:04 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:49:36 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Karen isn't a descriptor of someone's race, culture, nationality, age, or religion. It is a descriptor based on their actions and attitude (and hairstyle). I read an article about how it was sexist. But it seemed like the author is the type of person who thinks everything is sexist, so I took it with a grain of salt.

It's only ever applied to white women, though, so it is. It's a general descriptor. It's exactly like a bigoted white person expressing their disdain for black people and using the word 'Tyrone' or 'Jamal' in their screeds. Karen specifically refers to white women. Find any article that talks about "Karens" - it's always a white woman. It's not okay no matter how you slice it, that's my point, it just causes more problems than it solves (which is nothing) because it devolves into namecalling.

Well, fundamentally, you're right, though.  Because even the explanation doesn't work in reverse.   It's the same with "Brad's", the loud, shirtless (but with abs!) dumb (and inexorably white) frat boy on spring break.

I thought those were 'Chad's'

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 18, 2020, 11:05:37 AM

I hate it when it's done to me, and it happens all the time.

I mean, at least get your stereotype right; I am not noble, nor I have anything in common with Count Basie.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 11:09:58 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 10:56:55 AM

I don't think it mocks so much white people as it does white privalege.

I think it's also worth remembering that the whole Karen thing started because multiple occasions of calling the police on black people (even kids!) for no good reason.  But again not looking to get into arguments I respect Kattelox's opinion even if I don't agree, s'all good  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 18, 2020, 11:11:22 AM

You are all a bunch of clucks.


You think that will stick? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2020, 11:16:47 AM

Telling someone you disagreed with that they were so “liberal” that it made you not want to be liberal.  That’s pretty generalized.......Just sayin.

But more importantly, using the K- word is fine as long as a white person is saying it to another white person.

See?  https://youtu.be/bWBBn-QsCAQ?t=25 (https://youtu.be/bWBBn-QsCAQ?t=25)

I love how I used Highlander to make a point a few days ago, now another Fav Good Fellas to make another point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2020, 11:18:05 AM

Quote from: Richard on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I totally agree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 11:18:40 AM

Who brought up this whole Karen thing here anyway?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 18, 2020, 11:19:49 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 11:18:40 AM

Who brought up this whole Karen thing here anyway?

Probably Tyrone

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 18, 2020, 11:24:49 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 18, 2020, 11:18:05 AM

Quote from: Richard on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I totally agree.

This is stupidly confusing, thanks Adami :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2020, 11:26:32 AM

Quote from: Rich on May 18, 2020, 11:24:49 AM

Quote from: Dick on May 18, 2020, 11:18:05 AM

Quote from: Richard on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I totally agree.

This is stupidly confusing, thanks Adami :tup

Word.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 11:34:21 AM

Hey, I have a thick skin. I get it. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2020, 11:36:29 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:34:21 AM

Hey, I have a thick skin. I get it. :)

To be fair, I was actually agreeing with you and I made sure to call myself dick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2020, 11:39:15 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 18, 2020, 11:19:49 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 11:18:40 AM

Who brought up this whole Karen thing here anyway?

Probably Tyrone

Nope.  It was Henry

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 11:45:52 AM

Quote from: Dr. Dick on May 18, 2020, 11:36:29 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:34:21 AM

Hey, I have a thick skin. I get it. :)

To be fair, I was actually agreeing with you and I made sure to call myself dick.

Gotcha. ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 11:53:15 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 11:09:58 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 10:56:55 AM

I don't think it mocks so much white people as it does white privalege.

I think it's also worth remembering that the whole Karen thing started because multiple occasions of calling the police on black people (even kids!) for no good reason.  But again not looking to get into arguments I respect Kattelox's opinion even if I don't agree, s'all good  :tup

I'm loathe to push back on you, because I don't want to turn this into an argument, but it didn't start there; it's been around for a while before that.  That's a recent manifestation, no doubt, but the mindset of "I want to speak to a manager" is not exclusive to that scenario.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 11:57:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 11:53:15 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 11:09:58 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 10:56:55 AM

I don't think it mocks so much white people as it does white privalege.

I think it's also worth remembering that the whole Karen thing started because multiple occasions of calling the police on black people (even kids!) for no good reason.  But again not looking to get into arguments I respect Kattelox's opinion even if I don't agree, s'all good  :tup

I'm loathe to push back on you, because I don't want to turn this into an argument, but it didn't start there; it's been around for a while before that.  That's a recent manifestation, no doubt, but the mindset of "I want to speak to a manager" is not exclusive to that scenario.

Yeah, it did start before that, but those scenarios certainly firmed up the foundation so to speak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:42:47 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 10:21:08 AM

These are the people that are going to end up prolonging this ordeal for everyone.

Stupid bitch: https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/glzv0b/karen_upset_because_shes_not_allowed_to_shop/

Piece of shit asshole: https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/glgkl5/cart_taken_for_not_having_a_mask_publicfreakout/
          - Here's the asshole's rebuttal after the internet crucified him: https://streamable.com/bhyldq

All I could think of when listening to that first video was Cecily Strong's "The Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party" on SNL.  Same voice, same inflection, same loose grasp on BASIC FUCKING CONCEPTS WE SHOULD ALL KNOW.  All she had to do was call that guy "Colin" and it would have been perfect.

I hate these discussions, because it's too easy to extrapolate other things (this stuff is not limited to mouth-breathing, Trump-supporting deplorables; it goes both ways), but for me the depressing part of all of it is the notion that "freedom" somehow means "fuck you to everyone else".  I'm not talking about just COVID, but in general.  If someone came into their house, they'd be the first people screaming about violation of rights, but they think their little bubble of "freedom" extends around them where ever they go.  I'm, basically, a Libertarian when it comes to this stuff, but my "rights" end the second I cross the threshold into YOUR store. 

People.  I need an island.   

 :tup  Same same.  Private property is private and controlled and ruled over by the owner of said property.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 01:52:57 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Thank you! Every year that passes I believe this more and more. And I'm no saint, I'm guilty of doing it from time to time, but I try to recognize it and correct it in the future. I think I've gotten better at this in the last year or so.

Re: Coronavirus. I'm so sick of average Joes acting like they know more than doctors and health experts about this just because they hear that some fat fuck who had COVID died of a heart attack therefore it's not really a COVID death.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 18, 2020, 01:56:47 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Did you watch Piece of shit asshole's videos that I posted? He posted both of those to the internet. Why does he deserve an ounce of my respect? He's a selfish fuckwit who's willingly endangering the live of others in order to send some kind of message to his "3000 instagram followers".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 02:03:37 PM

So now every white guy is just "Joe," huh?  Wow, so much for double standards...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 02:06:09 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 01:56:47 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Did you watch Piece of shit asshole's videos that I posted? He posted both of those to the internet. Why does he deserve an ounce of my respect? He's a selfish fuckwit who's willingly endangering the live of others in order to send some kind of message to his "3000 instagram followers".

In all seriousness, if "piece of shit asshole" is all another human being is to you, then I would suggest that he's not the only one with a problem.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 02:07:29 PM

I knew someone would point out that I used Joe there. Wise ass!  :lol But I also agree with your response to Chino.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 02:12:11 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 02:07:29 PM

I knew someone would point out that I used Joe there. Wise ass!  :lol But I also agree with your response to Chino.

Well, it was either that, or rename an old burner account "Tyrone" and post something.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 02:13:37 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 01:52:57 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Thank you! Every year that passes I believe this more and more. And I'm no saint, I'm guilty of doing it from time to time, but I try to recognize it and correct it in the future. I think I've gotten better at this in the last year or so.

Re: Coronavirus. I'm so sick of average Joes acting like they know more than doctors and health experts about this just because they hear that some fat fuck who had COVID died of a heart attack therefore it's not really a COVID death.

to tie it back to covid as well,  the person in the reddit thread where the Karen quote came from (which is how this whole thing started btw, I think it was Cool Chris who pulled it but he didn't write it)  is really not that different for example than you when you were venting(understandably so) about the type of people you ran into IRL or on facebook calling your governor a nazi and bitching masks and freedoms etc.    It's a little bit of a generalization but I understood the point you were making so the same thing can apply here I think.   Again, your mileage may vary and I'm not trying to be judgy or anything  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 02:14:46 PM

Tyronavirus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 02:15:08 PM

Honestly, when I first saw the post, I just assumed her name actually was Karen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2020, 02:20:07 PM

I honestly was not aware of the Karen thing before this.

Do white guys have an equivalent?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 18, 2020, 02:23:34 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 02:03:37 PM

So now every white guy is just "Joe," huh?  Wow, so much for double standards...

On top of that, they're usually 'Average' as well!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 02:27:06 PM

All right, all right. Just change my name to Dr. Bitschenmonen and get it over with.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 02:27:40 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 18, 2020, 02:20:07 PM

I honestly was not aware of the Karen thing before this.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen

Urban Dictionary,  everyone should bookmark it, truly invaluable ressource. I use almost as much as wikipedia honestly

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 02:30:12 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 18, 2020, 02:20:07 PM

I honestly was not aware of the Karen thing before this.

Do white guys have an equivalent?

Chad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 02:30:29 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 02:27:40 PM

Urban Dictionary,  everyone should bookmark it, truly invaluable ressource. I use almost as much as wikipedia honestly

Yes I am on that site periodically, if only to read some of the more outlandish definitions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 18, 2020, 02:36:56 PM

btw looking back I defer to Stadler because I was obviously wrong on the origins of the word, for some reason I mixed two things together that are related but not the same.  Please enjoy this hilarious SNL clip from two years ago featuring a great use of the "Karen": 

https://youtu.be/hzMzFGgmQOc?t=305

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 18, 2020, 02:39:17 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 18, 2020, 02:30:12 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 18, 2020, 02:20:07 PM

I honestly was not aware of the Karen thing before this.

Do white guys have an equivalent?

Chad.

Chad is overwhelmingly used to make fun of the kind of people who would use the term Chad unironically, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 02:41:36 PM

I wasn't aware SNL had made anything hilarious in the past 20 years   :D

But I chuckled at "and she'll probably add something unnecessary like raisins..."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2020, 02:41:53 PM

One of my friends has a brother named Chad Carron.

That should count for something, yea?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 18, 2020, 02:55:47 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 02:06:09 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 01:56:47 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Did you watch Piece of shit asshole's videos that I posted? He posted both of those to the internet. Why does he deserve an ounce of my respect? He's a selfish fuckwit who's willingly endangering the live of others in order to send some kind of message to his "3000 instagram followers".

In all seriousness, if "piece of shit asshole" is all another human being is to you, then I would suggest that he's not the only one with a problem.

I never suggested he "had a problem", so I'm not sure what you're insinuating here. But yeah, I've got plenty. I've got some pretty serious ones. The difference between me and this guy is I keep mine in house. I made over 100 masks for others and this guy won't even wear one around others. Fuck him. I don't put others at risk and proudly act like an asshole in public. I don't go out and intentionally ruin other people's days in the name of freedom. He's been running his mouth on Reddit the last two days, but his rebuke video is all anyone should need to see. This guy is a piece of shit. He's a selfish, narcissistic, piece of shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 03:01:19 PM

Chino have you ever thought about taking a walk or shadowboxing or mowing a lawn or something  :lol don't have a thrombo, man

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 18, 2020, 03:02:53 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 03:01:19 PM

Chino have you ever thought about taking a walk or shadowboxing or mowing a lawn or something  :lol don't have a thrombo, man

I take two 30-45 minute walks per day. I live on .25 acres, I don't have much to mow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 03:04:38 PM

Then you might want to buy more land or start running  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 18, 2020, 03:15:03 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 18, 2020, 02:12:11 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 02:07:29 PM

I knew someone would point out that I used Joe there. Wise ass!  :lol But I also agree with your response to Chino.

Well, it was either that, or rename an old burner account "Tyrone" and post something.  :lol

Queenshmeglad and her 10,000+ post count would’ve done just fine.

Or Kotowboy.

I wonder if anyone who refuses to wear a mask also refuses to wear a seatbelt ... in the name of FREEDOM!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 03:17:07 PM

It's funny that a lot of those people would probably balk at someone acting like they know more about their profession, but those same people have no problem denouncing doctors as hacks and disregarding all medical advice they don't immediately agree with

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 18, 2020, 03:20:23 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 03:04:38 PM

Then you might want to buy more land or start running  :lol

 :rollin :rollin :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 03:33:18 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 01:56:47 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Did you watch Piece of shit asshole's videos that I posted? He posted both of those to the internet. Why does he deserve an ounce of my respect? He's a selfish fuckwit who's willingly endangering the live of others in order to send some kind of message to his "3000 instagram followers".

Yes, even this guy.

But, Chino, considering all the good you did making masks with your 3D printer, I can understand why you feel they way you do and are reacting the way you are.  You are an A+ human being for doing that.

I would also like to mention the cool gift you gave your Dad.  You have a heart of gold man  :tup

And a bit of a hot head :).  But I'm no angel either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 18, 2020, 06:40:33 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 08:14:59 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

I keep a spread sheet of every concert I've ever gone to (although I think a few free ones from the 90's are missing, but I didn't have ticket stubs when I started the list as a reminder of the dates), and if I end up not going to one this year, it will be the first year since 1989 that I didn't go to a single concert in a calendar year.

Setlist.fm is your friend.   That would have been the same for me, except "1982", but I snuck in "Squeeze" before the shit hit the fan. 

Oh, I am very familiar with setlist;fm, but that site is incomplete.  I know I saw Kansas at a free show in downtown St Louis on my birthday in 1995, but that is not listed on there.  And I know around the same time, Tommy Shaw and Jack Blades did a show at the short-lived Real Rock Cafe (which was like our version of Hard Rock Cafe for a spell), which I went to, and I don't see that listed either.  Cripes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2020, 10:07:13 PM

Today at lunch, my wife texted me that she was afraid she had it, and had begun to show symptoms last night.

They aren’t testing everyone, but when I called the clinic, the symptoms I described were worrisome enough that they put me through to an RN, who instructed us to go to the nearest evaluation tent. After being evaluated, they thought it was serious enough to be tested tomorrow.

Just to be safe, I’m quarantining from work for the rest of the week. She’s quarantined to her room, she’ll get tested tomorrow, and it will be Thursday or Friday before we gets the results of the test.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:29:01 PM

Damn JD, did that come out of nowhere? I haven't been all over this thread, but do not recall you saying anything earlier about the possibility.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2020, 10:37:56 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:29:01 PM

Damn JD, did that come out of nowhere? I haven't been all over this thread, but do not recall you saying anything earlier about the possibility.

It hit me out of nowhere when I got the text at lunch today.

It’s still not for sure. We’ll find out before the end of the week. But she has 1) a new cough. 2) sore throat. 3) chest pressure (like someone is sitting on her chest) 3) headache. And 4) oscillating between hot flashes and chills.  She doesn’t have a fever...but she didn’t check her temperature until after she had taken an Aleve for pain, so that may have brought it down. We’ll see what happens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 18, 2020, 11:05:25 PM

Oh crap.  Any idea how she might've been exposed?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2020, 11:25:16 PM

At this point? No clue. She does the shopping...so it may be just a slip up somewhere? Or it’s always possible that I’m an asymptomatic carrier and brought it home from work when I went back to work last week.

Or, as per the doctor on site, it could be something else that’s going around. There are other cold viruses. And heck, it’s even possible it’s allergies because cottonwood is really bad around my area right now. The doctor seemed to hint that it was 50/50ish (I’m summing up, but that was the vibe I got from what he said) but it was still showing enough signs to the point where they felt like it was important she get tested as soon as possible. We will see...stay tuned. It honestly might be nothing. And even if it is COVID, the doctor seemed to think that there was a better than average chance that it would just be an annoyance. (But OTOH, what else would they say? They wouldn’t predict the worst even if it were possible)

But she is coughing pretty bad and I’m sleeping in the guest room. Hoping for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 05:29:38 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 01:56:47 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 18, 2020, 01:48:30 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 11:02:43 AM

My point is that we as a people should be better than resorting to basic, generalized, stereotyping terminology and be more nuanced and intelligent in our rhetoric. I don't think that's a lot to ask. It's exactly the same thing with Trump and calling anyone who votes for him a deplorable or a racist or a MAGA cuck etc

I completely agree Katt.  It's pretty horrible that our society has reduced down to so much name calling.  I don't like the term "Karen" either.  A person is a person, even if I disagree with them.  And virtually all people deserve respect and to be treated with basic human decency.

Did you watch Piece of shit asshole's videos that I posted? He posted both of those to the internet. Why does he deserve an ounce of my respect? He's a selfish fuckwit who's willingly endangering the live of others in order to send some kind of message to his "3000 instagram followers".

This is a fine line though.   "Respect" in the "Wow, you are a ROLE MODEL" sense of the word?  Nah.  But "respect" in the sense of "I should treat you, someone I don't agree with, the same way I would expect someone who doesn't agree with me to treat ME"?  Sure.   I don't "respect" - in the sense of "admire and aspire to be like them" - the people that thought that we'd be getting "free gasoline" when Obama was elected, or that think it's perfectly ok to tax certain people more than 100% of their annual earnings (an activist who appeared on Neal Cavuto's show back around the time of the passing of the tax bill), or Adam Schiff for believing the ends justified the means when he circumvented the Federal judiciary and lied under oath to both the House and Senate.    But we're not animals.  They all get their moment in the sun, and as humans and citizens, I don't have the right to stifle their thoughts and/or ideas.  So maybe "respect" isn't the exact word we should use, but at some point, if we're going to survive as a society of 325 million disparate people, we're going to have to move away from "destroying", "eviscerating" or "savaging" people and opinions we disagree with.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 05:48:00 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 18, 2020, 03:02:53 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 03:01:19 PM

Chino have you ever thought about taking a walk or shadowboxing or mowing a lawn or something  :lol don't have a thrombo, man

I take two 30-45 minute walks per day. I live on .25 acres, I don't have much to mow.

You can come to my house if you want.  Usually I enjoy the 60, 90 minutes I get to myself, but I've got so much going on in terms of projects around the house that it's been a chore lately.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 06:12:27 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 18, 2020, 06:40:33 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 08:14:59 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

I keep a spread sheet of every concert I've ever gone to (although I think a few free ones from the 90's are missing, but I didn't have ticket stubs when I started the list as a reminder of the dates), and if I end up not going to one this year, it will be the first year since 1989 that I didn't go to a single concert in a calendar year.

Setlist.fm is your friend.   That would have been the same for me, except "1982", but I snuck in "Squeeze" before the shit hit the fan. 

Oh, I am very familiar with setlist;fm, but that site is incomplete.  I know I saw Kansas at a free show in downtown St Louis on my birthday in 1995, but that is not listed on there.  And I know around the same time, Tommy Shaw and Jack Blades did a show at the short-lived Real Rock Cafe (which was like our version of Hard Rock Cafe for a spell), which I went to, and I don't see that listed either.  Cripes.

I have something like 350 concerts in there, and I've had to add a couple in myself (the fourth Billy Joel show in New Haven in '86/'87; several opening acts aren't in there).  The setlists themselves are incomplete (or inaccurate) but I've been surprised that it's as accurate as it is.   It depends on the artist, though, and it's always subject to my memory.   (I've been convinced for almost two decades that I saw Keith Urban open for Willie Nelson in Atlanta in '98, '99 but there's no record anywhere of that actually happening.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 06:13:38 AM

Quote from: jammindude on May 18, 2020, 11:25:16 PM

At this point? No clue. She does the shopping...so it may be just a slip up somewhere? Or it’s always possible that I’m an asymptomatic carrier and brought it home from work when I went back to work last week.

Or, as per the doctor on site, it could be something else that’s going around. There are other cold viruses. And heck, it’s even possible it’s allergies because cottonwood is really bad around my area right now. The doctor seemed to hint that it was 50/50ish (I’m summing up, but that was the vibe I got from what he said) but it was still showing enough signs to the point where they felt like it was important she get tested as soon as possible. We will see...stay tuned. It honestly might be nothing. And even if it is COVID, the doctor seemed to think that there was a better than average chance that it would just be an annoyance. (But OTOH, what else would they say? They wouldn’t predict the worst even if it were possible)

But she is coughing pretty bad and I’m sleeping in the guest room. Hoping for the best.

As are we, hoping for the best.   Good luck to you both!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 19, 2020, 06:55:46 AM

Chino was not acting like an animal.
Chino did not stifle anyone's thoughts or ideas.
This is not the lynch pin that will allow our society of 325 million to survive.

Are we disagreeing with Chinos level of disgust with this person?....some are, and that is their right.  It is also Chinos' right to express his disgust (within the rules of the forum).  If we are to defend that person's right to his actions, videos, and viewpoint....then we do the same with Chino...and that includes the level of his expression.

I personally watched both videos, and think Chino's kind of spot on.  People make mistakes, and can be wrong.....but the video afterward, where he doubles/triples down, flips the bird to all the "sheep"....yeah...that earns him the POS-A title.

Sometimes, the situation calls for a bit of a "higher level" response to adequately express feelings, especially if it deals with things like safety, rights, hurting others, etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on May 19, 2020, 10:02:02 AM

Jammindude, hope all goes well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:14:26 AM

Quote from: Herrick on May 19, 2020, 10:02:02 AM

Jammindude, hope all goes well.

Same, hopefully it's just something else that will pass by.  With limited exposure, that seems very possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on May 19, 2020, 10:19:30 AM

@JD - I hope you and your family get good news, and that she recovers quickly

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 19, 2020, 10:53:07 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

Yeah, I totally forgot until this morning. Hell yeah ain't doing nuffin Monday :2metal:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on May 19, 2020, 10:53:33 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

It's a strange feeling. The Wife is always home so every day feels like a weekend to me. And it's even more weird because I've been going to work only 2 or 3 days a week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 19, 2020, 10:57:29 AM

We have this thing we do every Memorial Day weekend.  We visit the graves of all the ancestors we know about across Michigan and Illinois, and place flowers on them, and plant U.S. flags in the ground of the veterans (three or four on my wife's side).  I have been unsuccessful in talking my wife out of it, so I guess we're going.

It's actually pretty low-risk.  We'll spend most of the time in the car, and most of the people we'll see are already dead.  We'll have to stop in a few stores along the way to pick up flowers, but that's no more risk than going to the store these days anyway.  My biggest concern is that we'll spend two nights in a hotel.  We'll wash our hands a lot, wear masks, and hope for the best.  Unless there's vaccine or miracle cure sometime soon, we might as well get used to how things are done these days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 19, 2020, 11:10:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

I agree that everything is blending together, but hell no I did NOT forget it was our holiday yesterday.  Really looked forward to that extra day of no work.  I've been putting in some 12+ hour days lately, starting at 4am more than a few days recently.  The joys of supporting a global customer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 12:16:40 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

Day 63 of my weekend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 19, 2020, 12:21:46 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 12:16:40 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

Day 63 of my weekend.

So, is that why you still have the Macho Men/Roxbury gif in your sig?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 12:57:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 19, 2020, 12:21:46 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 12:16:40 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

Day 63 of my weekend.

So, is that why you still have the Macho Men/Roxbury gif in your sig?

That's to remind everyone who won the Rumble  :RJ:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 01:30:46 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 12:16:40 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

Day 63 of my weekend.

Even more of a reason for all the days to just blend together

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 01:41:15 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 19, 2020, 11:10:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

This whole lockdown stuff had me totally forget it's a 3 day holiday weekend.  Days, weeks, and now months just seem to blend into each other with not much to make me realize what day it is.

I agree that everything is blending together, but hell no I did NOT forget it was our holiday yesterday.  Really looked forward to that extra day of no work.  I've been putting in some 12+ hour days lately, starting at 4am more than a few days recently.  The joys of supporting a global customer.

See I'm with you; I'm so conscious about being "available" when I work at home (no "yellow" on the Teams icon, etc.) that even though I can freely go upstairs and get lunch or run errands, it's always with a mind to work.   Holidays, though, unless I have something specific that cannot wait, I tend to separate for that 12 hours or whatever.   Next Monday will be spent outside, hell, high water. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 19, 2020, 01:57:46 PM

Stadler, I respect you as much as anyone on (and possibly off) this forum, and recognize that you will earn several times over more money in your life than me, and find more satisfaction in your professional life as well, but "I'm so conscious about being "available" when I work at home that even though I can freely go upstairs and get lunch or run errands, it's always with a mind to work" just sounds like a horrible way to live.

Back on track... it had not occurred to me Monday was a holiday. I doubt I've looked at a calendar in the past month. I am aware of when it is a weekend because my daughter isn't doing schoolwork (sadly my wife finds some work to do but thankfully less than during the week, with no meetings).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 19, 2020, 02:15:30 PM

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I am similar to Stadler when I work from home.  I can freely do other things, and I certainly do, but I always have my laptop nearby and I never go offline or "yellow" in my status because I want everyone else to know I am online, available, and doing my job (even when I'm not).  I don't feel that way on days off or the early mornings/late evenings when I am no longer expected to be online.  Typically for me these days that 10am to 6pm.  Outside of those hours, I may be online but my mentality of being available isn't there anymore. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 02:30:24 PM

Yeah, I'm with Cram; it's not 24-7.  It's just being cognizant that I'm on the clock when I've made my sandwich and walking back to the "office" and I hear Judge Milian from People's Court on in the other room.  :)

I'm a service guy, meaning even my co-workers are essentially my clients.   If they call, it's in all of our best interests - including mine - that I'm available to take it.   While I'm certainly waiting for a couple of people to get back on a plane (and leave me alone) the one good thing about the COVID thing is a new appreciation for certain boundaries.   I rarely get (unplanned) calls before 8:00 am or after, say, 6:00-ish. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 19, 2020, 04:20:44 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 02:30:24 PM

Yeah, I'm with Cram; it's not 24-7.

My fault, I read your post wrong. My wife worked 60+ hours a week for the first couple weeks of virtual learning, and while I appreciate her dedication to her students, it was causing a visible strain on her health, and diminishing the time spent with her kids. I am overly sensitive to when there is a lack of balance and boundaries. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 05:06:17 PM

My brother just received his stimulus check.... For $12.75...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 19, 2020, 05:08:36 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 05:06:17 PM

My brother just received his stimulus check.... For $12.75...

Did he get his letter from Trump about how grateful he should be for it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 05:57:45 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 19, 2020, 05:08:36 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 05:06:17 PM

My brother just received his stimulus check.... For $12.75...

Did he get his letter from Trump about how grateful he should be for it?

Trump's name is on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on May 19, 2020, 06:15:02 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 05:06:17 PM

My brother just received his stimulus check.... For $12.75...

At least it's something.  Oh my, the hoops he'll have to go through, and the (probable) extra time he'll have to wait to receive the correct amount.  That all suxx.
Unless he owed child support, in which case, first dibs goes to that.

Us.....the wife inquired, and they'll be sending ours out on May 22nd.  What grinds us is that we sent our tax returns in on March 12th.  We do not direct deposit.  Received the state refund before the middle of April.  As for the Feds, ten weeks later, and they have no idea (?).  That isn't right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 07:24:35 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on May 19, 2020, 06:15:02 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 19, 2020, 05:06:17 PM

My brother just received his stimulus check.... For $12.75...

At least it's something.  Oh my, the hoops he'll have to go through, and the (probable) extra time he'll have to wait to receive the correct amount.  That all suxx.

Actually, he's at a salary range right around the cutoff point. He was probably close enough to 100k to get that amount.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 07:25:50 PM

A little dark but so funny. We all need a laugh.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9f2XZdYx/FB-IMG-1589895155506.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1WddsPJ)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:30:07 PM

Fits like a glove

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2020, 07:34:23 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 07:25:50 PM

A little dark but so funny. We all need a laugh.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9f2XZdYx/FB-IMG-1589895155506.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1WddsPJ)

Oh WOW! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 07:35:17 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:30:07 PM

Fits like a glove

Well it must be love....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2020, 07:37:07 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 07:35:17 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:30:07 PM

Fits like a glove

Well it must be love....

Went through her like a hot knife...



….through butter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 19, 2020, 07:37:18 PM

I too had totally forgotten about Memorial Day, so thanks for reminding me everyone. :)  I will indeed be looking forward to a day off next week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 07:39:25 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2020, 07:37:07 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 07:35:17 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:30:07 PM

Fits like a glove

Well it must be love....

Went through her like a hot knife...



….through butter

Maybe only Stadler, Coz, you and I would get that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:51:39 PM

Guess you win the prize ...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:51:39 PM

Guess you win the prize ...

Lol. Kiss lyrics  my friend. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:55:20 PM

Exactly!

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:51:39 PM

Guess you win the prize ...

... where the sun don't shine

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Says the kid who didn't grow up in the 70's.  Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:01:52 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Says the kid who didn't grow up in the 70's.  Lol

Yup, the guy that has a chick with a mustache for an avatar.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 08:02:41 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Says the kid who didn't grow up in the 70's.  Lol

80's, baby!  :hat :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 08:08:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:01:52 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Says the kid who didn't grow up in the 70's.  Lol

Yup, the guy that has a chick with a mustache for an avatar.

Listen,  I'm on your side.

You wouldn't want to see me angry.

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 08:02:41 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Says the kid who didn't grow up in the 70's.  Lol

80's, baby!  :hat :hat

I love that era as well dammit!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:13:51 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 08:08:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:01:52 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Says the kid who didn't grow up in the 70's.  Lol

Yup, the guy that has a chick with a mustache for an avatar.

Listen,  I'm on your side.

You wouldn't want to see me angry.

I was talking about Kev's avatar, robotman!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 08:17:29 PM

Best robotman ever!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:18:48 PM

Isn't he from a TV show or something?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 08:24:46 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:18:48 PM

Isn't he from a TV show or something?

How would you know? You don't watch TV!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on May 19, 2020, 08:31:02 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 08:24:46 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:18:48 PM

Isn't he from a TV show or something?

How would you know? You don't watch TV!

I love how I randomly walk into a thread cause I'm bored as hell and it's someone giving shit to Tim.  :lol  Glorious.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2020, 08:33:00 PM

Tell me about it! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2020, 08:35:31 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2020, 01:14:56 PM

Apparently something happening in China again but with different symptoms.

Ugh!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 01:26:40 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 20, 2020, 01:14:56 PM

Apparently something happening in China again but with different symptoms.

Ugh!

You really have to start providing links bud. Hunting down this stuff isn't fun.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 01:46:05 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2020, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 19, 2020, 07:51:39 PM

Guess you win the prize ...

Lol. Kiss lyrics  my friend.

Actually brought a tear to my eye.  I have that verse tattooed on my right rib cage.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2020, 01:51:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2020, 01:26:40 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 20, 2020, 01:14:56 PM

Apparently something happening in China again but with different symptoms.

Ugh!

You really have to start providing links bud. Hunting down this stuff isn't fun.

Sorry, always on my phone and on the run. I would if I was on my Mac at home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 20, 2020, 02:08:53 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 20, 2020, 01:14:56 PM

Apparently something happening in China again but with different symptoms.

Ugh!

I read something on yahoo this morning but cant immediately find it, but to be clear, it wasn't a new virus but they think a new strain of covid-19 possibly from Russia (since this is occurring near the Russian border where apparently Russia is making Chinese people leave) with the main difference being a potentially longer incubation period. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2020, 02:28:02 PM

Yes that's what I meant. Some new mutation of Covid and they're going back into lockdown.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 20, 2020, 06:13:07 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 20, 2020, 02:28:02 PM

Yes that's what I meant. Some new mutation of Covid and they're going back into lockdown.

Oh man, that's no good.  Although various areas of China have been in and out of lockdown since this whole thing started.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:14:52 AM

Hard to keep up with the changing "science" for this beast. Now the CDC says it doesn't transmit easily via surfaces. Initially it was heavy droplets that fell pretty rapidly. That opinion changed multiple times also. Another story claims that sheltering in place and not getting outside created a worst case scenario in NY at the peak of outbreak. There's a growing number of physicians that claim masks are not only useless but they actually make things worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 21, 2020, 05:07:21 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2020, 01:26:40 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 20, 2020, 01:14:56 PM

Apparently something happening in China again but with different symptoms.

Ugh!

You really have to start providing links bud. Hunting down this stuff isn't fun.

Here an article I just read about it

www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/world/asia/coronavirus-china-lockdown.amp.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on May 21, 2020, 05:20:08 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 19, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Anyone who listens to or quotes Kiss, should get a basket of shame, not a prize. :P

Quote from: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 01:46:05 PM

Actually brought a tear to my eye. I have that verse tattooed on my right rib cage.   

Kev? You want the honors or can I take this?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 05:38:09 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:14:52 AM

Hard to keep up with the changing "science" for this beast. Now the CDC says it doesn't transmit easily via surfaces. Initially it was heavy droplets that fell pretty rapidly. That opinion changed multiple times also. Another story claims that sheltering in place and not getting outside created a worst case scenario in NY at the peak of outbreak. There's a growing number of physicians that claim masks are not only useless but they actually make things worse.

Why do you put "science" in quotes? Ideas change as time goes on and more information is learned. That is part of the scientific method.

Maybe we should stop analyzing every single thing that comes out and just use common sense. I've heard too many adults recently write off all advice on the premise that statements are changing therefore health officials don't know what they're talking about.

Masks may indeed make things worse for people with breathing problems. Allergy season might exacerbate the effects of allergy-related asthma,  dyspnea, etc. People reusing the same mask over and over could make themselves sick. Use common sense and wash your cloth mask or get new ones. You gotta use your brain.

(Not entirely directed at you, emtee. Your post just touches on a lot that I've been thinking about lately.  :tup)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 05:52:40 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 05:38:09 AM

Maybe we should stop analyzing every single thing that comes out and just use common sense.

The problem with that attitude is that common sense isn't the same for everyone. Someone who's buying into the fear mongering would say common sense is to stay home 99% of the time and wear masks, gloves, and other PPE when having to go out. Common sense for me is to avoid crowded places, wash and sanitize my hands frequently, avoid getting too close to others when possible, and otherwise just don't freak out and live my life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 06:05:45 AM

Well, if you want to call it fear mongering.... but yes, largely I agree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 06:08:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 06:05:45 AM

Well, if you want to call it fear mongering....

OK, then not fear mongering. Taking that out of my previous statement, you still have two people with wildly different levels of common sense. I have a friend who literally will sanitize everything on himself and shower every time he even goes for a walk around his neighborhood and doesn't come into contact with anyone. He's scared shitless of this even though he has no underlying condition. That's common sense to him.

Can can you really deny there isn't a lot of fear mongering going on? I feel like it's gotten better in recent weeks, but the media was certainly doing their best to freak everyone out in the beginning. The media thrives on selling fear.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 06:12:37 AM

I think the irony of all this is that the more you read about it the more likely you are to call it fear mongering. Maybe some people just want to be extra safe. I see nothing wrong with what that guy is doing. Let him do his thing. I only find it bothersome when people start freaking out and calling the cops on business that are opening or on people who aren't 6 feet away. Of course common sense will mean different things to people but if the extra cautious guy isn't affecting you then who cares what he's doing. Maybe he is an anxious person. Let him do him and don't judge him. People without underlying conditions can still be greatly affected by the virus.

The media... sigh. It's too early for me to go down that road. I need my coffee first. :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 06:20:00 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 06:12:37 AM

I think the irony of all this is that the more you read about it the more likely you are to call it fear mongering. Maybe some people just want to be extra safe. I see nothing wrong with what that guy is doing. Let him do his thing. I only find it bothersome when people start freaking out and calling the cops on business that are opening or on people who aren't 6 feet away. Of course common sense will mean different things to people but if the extra cautious guy isn't affecting you then who cares what he's doing. Maybe he is an anxious person. Let him do him and don't judge him.

Oh I completely agree with everything you said there. I don't mind if my friend wants to be super safe (and he is a super anxious guy). Do what seems reasonable to you. There's plenty of judgement going around from either extreme and it's getting old. One side acts all self righteous and like they're saving the world by staying home and wearing a mask and thinks if you're not you're an awful human being. The other side thinks you're a unthinking sheep for trying to do a few pretty reasonable things to be safe. I'm tired of all of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 21, 2020, 06:29:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 06:08:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 06:05:45 AM

Well, if you want to call it fear mongering....

OK, then not fear mongering. Taking that out of my previous statement, you still have two people with wildly different levels of common sense. I have a friend who literally will sanitize everything on himself and shower every time he even goes for a walk around his neighborhood and doesn't come into contact with anyone. He's scared shitless of this even though he has no underlying condition. That's common sense to him.

Can can you really deny there isn't a lot of fear mongering going on? I feel like it's gotten better in recent weeks, but the media was certainly doing their best to freak everyone out in the beginning. The media thrives on selling fear.

Social Media has taken everything to an extreme.  This is just A VIRUS.  It is transmitted exactly the same as other viruses.  It's very contagious and easily transmissible, but common sense says that whatever you do to protect yourself from getting sick on a regular basis will continue to work here. 

Have we all forgotten what we know about germs?  Why is it that doctors continue to recommend that the best thing to do is simply wash your hands.  My kids have a children's book about germs, and on almost every single page it reminds the kid to just wash their hands and keep their fingers out of their mouth.

This need to sanitize and disinfect groceries and other stuff has driven me crazy for the last two months.  My family has social distanced and kept closer to home.  We still go to the grocery or hardware stores as we normally do, but we just use sanitizer when we leave and wash our hands when we come home.  Nobody has been sick in my house in months. 

If people would stop reading stupid shit online and freaking out, and just washed their hands a bit more often, they'd be fine, with a lot less anxiety in their lives as well.  I'm not scared of touching something.  I'm a bit nervous being around other people though, which is primarily how this virus is transmitted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 06:47:59 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 06:20:00 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 06:12:37 AM

I think the irony of all this is that the more you read about it the more likely you are to call it fear mongering. Maybe some people just want to be extra safe. I see nothing wrong with what that guy is doing. Let him do his thing. I only find it bothersome when people start freaking out and calling the cops on business that are opening or on people who aren't 6 feet away. Of course common sense will mean different things to people but if the extra cautious guy isn't affecting you then who cares what he's doing. Maybe he is an anxious person. Let him do him and don't judge him.

Oh I completely agree with everything you said there. I don't mind if my friend wants to be super safe (and he is a super anxious guy). Do what seems reasonable to you. There's plenty of judgement going around from either extreme and it's getting old. One side acts all self righteous and like they're saving the world by staying home and wearing a mask and thinks if you're not you're an awful human being. The other side thinks you're a unthinking sheep for trying to do a few pretty reasonable things to be safe. I'm tired of all of it.

Amen, brother.  :hifive:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 21, 2020, 07:03:57 AM

Just a bit frustrated is all. For weeks I've listened to so many academic types telling us to focus on the science and, as is often the case in evolving situations, the initial science turns out to be pretty inaccurate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 07:23:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 05:52:40 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 05:38:09 AM

Maybe we should stop analyzing every single thing that comes out and just use common sense.

The problem with that attitude is that common sense isn't the same for everyone. Someone who's buying into the fear mongering would say common sense is to stay home 99% of the time and wear masks, gloves, and other PPE when having to go out. Common sense for me is to avoid crowded places, wash and sanitize my hands frequently, avoid getting too close to others when possible, and otherwise just don't freak out and live my life.

I'm splitting hairs a bit with terminology, but "common sense" is the worst standard to use (sorry Katt).  It's akin to guessing.   

I think Katt is right, though, that science - true science - evolves, and has to evolve to be better; it's the nature of the beast.  What we can do, though, is to minimize the sensationalism of the "hot off the presses" mentality that freezes things in time, and - while I get it, it's fun as shit to ridicule Trump for everything from the quality of his "congratulation" to Adrenaline Mob's lyrics - abstain from delivering the verdict(s) until all the evidence is in.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 21, 2020, 07:33:59 AM

Kind of relevant here: https://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 07:40:20 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:14:52 AM

Hard to keep up with the changing "science" for this beast. Now the CDC says it doesn't transmit easily via surfaces. Initially it was heavy droplets that fell pretty rapidly. That opinion changed multiple times also. Another story claims that sheltering in place and not getting outside created a worst case scenario in NY at the peak of outbreak. There's a growing number of physicians that claim masks are not only useless but they actually make things worse.

Studies often take years of data and discussions with peers before a consensus is reached. And often different techniques/approaches showing the same phenomenon are required. What you see now is simply everyone wanting an answer where there are no (definitive) answers yet. Our experts have mostly used language that clearly indicates that (My hypothesis is, I am skeptical that, our data indicates etc.), but media often does a poor job in translating science to news articles. The actual publications of the scientists themselves almost always address all the potential limitations and research gaps. And usually I believe the media really should focus on published, peer-reviewed data, not only a scientist/doctor speaking his/her mind in an interview (though that is not a bad thing, expert opinions/predictions/insights matter). But I appreciate this is not always an option, as decisions have to be made right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 07:43:51 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 21, 2020, 06:29:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 06:08:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 06:05:45 AM

Well, if you want to call it fear mongering....

OK, then not fear mongering. Taking that out of my previous statement, you still have two people with wildly different levels of common sense. I have a friend who literally will sanitize everything on himself and shower every time he even goes for a walk around his neighborhood and doesn't come into contact with anyone. He's scared shitless of this even though he has no underlying condition. That's common sense to him.

Can can you really deny there isn't a lot of fear mongering going on? I feel like it's gotten better in recent weeks, but the media was certainly doing their best to freak everyone out in the beginning. The media thrives on selling fear.

Social Media has taken everything to an extreme.  This is just A VIRUS.  It is transmitted exactly the same as other viruses.  It's very contagious and easily transmissible, but common sense says that whatever you do to protect yourself from getting sick on a regular basis will continue to work here. 

Have we all forgotten what we know about germs?  Why is it that doctors continue to recommend that the best thing to do is simply wash your hands.  My kids have a children's book about germs, and on almost every single page it reminds the kid to just wash their hands and keep their fingers out of their mouth.

This need to sanitize and disinfect groceries and other stuff has driven me crazy for the last two months.  My family has social distanced and kept closer to home.  We still go to the grocery or hardware stores as we normally do, but we just use sanitizer when we leave and wash our hands when we come home.  Nobody has been sick in my house in months. 

If people would stop reading stupid shit online and freaking out, and just washed their hands a bit more often, they'd be fine, with a lot less anxiety in their lives as well.  I'm not scared of touching something.  I'm a bit nervous being around other people though, which is primarily how this virus is transmitted.

A lawyer that represents my company on a couple matters I'm handling is based in Philly, but his firm has a major office in D.C., and as a result he has a reasonable number of D.C. connections.  We were chatting about this (COVID) earlier this week, and he was telling me about a conversation he had just this past weekend with a woman who has a significant amount of experience in this area (epidemics/pandemics) and knows the key players to the point that she refers to Dr. Fauci as "Tony".   (I did not ask who it was, as it would have been inappropriate, and I'm not speculating here, because that would be equally inappropriate, but it's fair to point out that nothing said either specifically points to or emphatically rules out someone like a Dr. Birx.)   She was pretty clear about a couple things:   one, despite all the political wrangling, this has been known and expected for the better part of 40 years.   They - meaning the infectious diseases community - knew this was coming at some point, and had models prepared.  The wild card was always getting the input parameters for the models from the real world observations.  This is a key way that China both helped and hurt the process.   Two, she wouldn't get on a plane if her life depended on it, only because the few things that ARE effective here are muted in the confined space of a plane.    Three, she has more or less continued her life as usual, including going to the market on a normal rhythm, with a few key modifications (all well-publicized): a mask at all times in public.   Frequent handwashing (gloves not necessary).   Reasonable distance between people.   

There is nothing in that paragraph that hasn't been communicated for weeks now, by whatever group or source you might find credible.   None of it is telling anyone else what to do, none of it is terribly worried about what others are doing, none of it involves assessing others' mental states or levels of intelligence/education.  It's just simply taking reasonable steps on a personal level to protect oneself.  I found that very refreshing,  pragmatic, and mature.  If pressed, that would be MY common sense: tend your own garden and remain pragmatic.     

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 07:50:10 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 07:23:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 21, 2020, 05:52:40 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 05:38:09 AM

Maybe we should stop analyzing every single thing that comes out and just use common sense.

The problem with that attitude is that common sense isn't the same for everyone. Someone who's buying into the fear mongering would say common sense is to stay home 99% of the time and wear masks, gloves, and other PPE when having to go out. Common sense for me is to avoid crowded places, wash and sanitize my hands frequently, avoid getting too close to others when possible, and otherwise just don't freak out and live my life.

I'm splitting hairs a bit with terminology, but "common sense" is the worst standard to use (sorry Katt).  It's akin to guessing.   

I think Katt is right, though, that science - true science - evolves, and has to evolve to be better; it's the nature of the beast.  What we can do, though, is to minimize the sensationalism of the "hot off the presses" mentality that freezes things in time, and - while I get it, it's fun as shit to ridicule Trump for everything from the quality of his "congratulation" to Adrenaline Mob's lyrics - abstain from delivering the verdict(s) until all the evidence is in.

I kind of cringed when I used 'common sense'; I couldn't think of a better way to articulate it right after waking up :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 07:54:41 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 07:40:20 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:14:52 AM

Hard to keep up with the changing "science" for this beast. Now the CDC says it doesn't transmit easily via surfaces. Initially it was heavy droplets that fell pretty rapidly. That opinion changed multiple times also. Another story claims that sheltering in place and not getting outside created a worst case scenario in NY at the peak of outbreak. There's a growing number of physicians that claim masks are not only useless but they actually make things worse.

Studies often take years of data and discussions with peers before a consensus is reached. And often different techniques/approaches showing the same phenomenon are required. What you see now is simply everyone wanting an answer where there are no (definitive) answers yet. Our experts have mostly used language that clearly indicates that (My hypothesis is, I am skeptical that, our data indicates etc.), but media often does a poor job in translating science to news articles. The actual publications of the scientists themselves almost always address all the potential limitations and research gaps. And usually I believe the media really should focus on published, peer-reviewed data, not only a scientist/doctor speaking his/her mind in an interview (though that is not a bad thing, expert opinions/predictions/insights matter). But I appreciate this is not always an option, as decisions have to be made right now.

DECISIONS do, but not final conclusions.   One of the basic tenets of crisis management - and we are in a crisis, it seems - is to continue to collect information in real time, only make those decisions that you absolutely have to WHEN you absolutely have to, and revisit the information that led to those decisions as frequently as is reasonable given the circumstances.   

Some people - on both sides - seem intent on arriving at grand conclusions and we're not even done with the crisis yet.   The post mortem can wait until the crime scene has been secured, roped off, and all evidence collected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 07:55:19 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 21, 2020, 07:03:57 AM

Just a bit frustrated is all. For weeks I've listened to so many academic types telling us to focus on the science and, as is often the case in evolving situations, the initial science turns out to be pretty inaccurate.

My response would be that ErHaO kind of already hit on what I'm getting at in his response about how it takes time to get results, as did Stadler with paying less attention to the sensationalism and instant gratification that 24/7 news brings us. The inaccuracy of initial science is WHY the scientific method exists and why it is the standard for experimenting with ideas and hypotheses. Acting like it's frustrating or pointless to pay attention to science because the initial findings may be inaccurate is illogical; you have to start somewhere. Maybe scientific findings are inaccurate at first, but the scientific method is proven to work and scientists and doctors are going through the motions figuring out what makes this virus tick. Have faith. Maybe scientists are, shockingly, better at this than us non-scientists and we shouldn't act like the first bit of news we hear is the standard by which we measure later findings. I've heard people twice my age bitch about masks and social distancing because "we didn't do this when polio/AIDS were around" and my eyes nearly rolled into the back of my head. The lack of logic the average person applies to things is shocking, nevermind when it concerns microbiology. I say we ignore the constant barrage of news, put on some Rush, stay smart, and stay positive. :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 08:31:31 AM

Being in an area that was hit harder, I don't like the tendency some people have taken of "see, it's not that bad!"
Yes, not as bad as some of the most dire predictions which were also founded on the assumption that we would "do nothing".

"Not that bad" after 2 months of society at 75% isolation, with most schools, offices, retailers, sporting events, movie theaters closed.
We will NEVER know what would have happened had people not made that sacrifice.

Now, as things reopen, people still have to be smart, and make the right decisions for them before going out and mixing with a bunch of people.
This is not over. Do not devalue the sacrifice you have made over the last two months, or act like it was all in vain. Again, we DO NOT know what would have happened without people making the right decisions. We do NOT know what will happen as we move toward reopening.

My heart goes out to all the unemployed and the business owners who are suffering. The response to COVID has not been perfect. Maybe we could have started sooner with less aggressive measures. Maybe we could have been more fair to small mom and pop stores instead of just shutting down everything but the big box chains. There are countless problems that need to be addressed and will need to continue to be addressed over the next year. I hope that these are addressed and as many people as possible are made whole.

The response may have failed many. In the future, all we will learn about are the concrete ways in which the response failed, and we will never be able to be certain about just how successful it was, or what was avoided. A response that failed many is not the same thing as an unsuccessful response, don't think for a second that the sacrifices you made and will continue to make meant nothing!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 08:42:04 AM

Quote from: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 08:31:31 AM

Being in an area that was hit harder, I don't like the tendency some people have taken of "see, it's not that bad!"
Yes, not as bad as some of the most dire predictions which were also founded on the assumption that we would "do nothing".

"Not that bad" after 2 months of society at 75% isolation, with most schools, offices, retailers, sporting events, movie theaters closed.
We will NEVER know what would have happened had people not made that sacrifice.

Now, as things reopen, people still have to be smart, and make the right decisions for them before going out and mixing with a bunch of people.
This is not over. Do not devalue the sacrifice you have made over the last two months, or act like it was all in vain. Again, we DO NOT know what would have happened without people making the right decisions. We do NOT know what will happen as we move toward reopening.

My heart goes out to all the unemployed and the business owners who are suffering. The response to COVID has not been perfect. Maybe we could have started sooner with less aggressive measures. Maybe we could have been more fair to small mom and pop stores instead of just shutting down everything but the big box chains. There are countless problems that need to be addressed and will need to continue to be addressed over the next year. I hope that these are addressed and as many people as possible are made whole.

The response may have failed many. In the future, all we will learn about are the concrete ways in which the response failed, and we will never be able to be certain about just how successful it was, or what was avoided. A response that failed many is not the same thing as an unsuccessful response, don't think for a second that the sacrifices you made and will continue to make meant nothing!

But this is what I was driving at.  Too early to tell in BOTH DIRECTIONS.  The implications of your own words are that we won't know what all the outcomes will be for some time;  how can we tell for certain who was "failed" - implying that EVERY DEATH was completely avoidable - by any of the responses, or that any of the sacrifices were "worth it"?  I appreciate the emotional aspect of that, the encouragement to stay the course, but in the context of this discussion, about science and the "biology" of the virus at hand, it's a bit premature.   The reality is, we die.  It's the only certainty that every one of the 7.3 billion people on this planet share.  Some of us die every day from things that are known, for which there is an accepted and proven response, and under the care of the best trained doctors.   Not suggesting we should do nothing and accept fate, but I think it's premature to start assigning qualifications to the responses just yet.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 08:57:54 AM

I am fine if you don't want to qualify the response just yet, but it is just as wrong to characterize the nature and deadly potential of the virus while ignoring what role the response has played in making it appear much less threatening than what many in the media were predicting. My point is that there will be plenty of concrete reasons to chip away people's confidence that they did they right thing by staying in and canceling plans and making other sacrifices. We will never have anything but speculation and models telling us what scenarios we avoided, how much worse these things would have been than what we actually did experience, or whether other things could have been done earlier to make any sort of drastic response fully unnecessary. The country is now reopening and I really do hope as many people are made whole as possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 09:04:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 07:54:41 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 07:40:20 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:14:52 AM

Hard to keep up with the changing "science" for this beast. Now the CDC says it doesn't transmit easily via surfaces. Initially it was heavy droplets that fell pretty rapidly. That opinion changed multiple times also. Another story claims that sheltering in place and not getting outside created a worst case scenario in NY at the peak of outbreak. There's a growing number of physicians that claim masks are not only useless but they actually make things worse.

Studies often take years of data and discussions with peers before a consensus is reached. And often different techniques/approaches showing the same phenomenon are required. What you see now is simply everyone wanting an answer where there are no (definitive) answers yet. Our experts have mostly used language that clearly indicates that (My hypothesis is, I am skeptical that, our data indicates etc.), but media often does a poor job in translating science to news articles. The actual publications of the scientists themselves almost always address all the potential limitations and research gaps. And usually I believe the media really should focus on published, peer-reviewed data, not only a scientist/doctor speaking his/her mind in an interview (though that is not a bad thing, expert opinions/predictions/insights matter). But I appreciate this is not always an option, as decisions have to be made right now.

DECISIONS do, but not final conclusions.   One of the basic tenets of crisis management - and we are in a crisis, it seems - is to continue to collect information in real time, only make those decisions that you absolutely have to WHEN you absolutely have to, and revisit the information that led to those decisions as frequently as is reasonable given the circumstances.   

Some people - on both sides - seem intent on arriving at grand conclusions and we're not even done with the crisis yet.   The post mortem can wait until the crime scene has been secured, roped off, and all evidence collected.

Yes, I agree. Though "when you absolutely have to" differs per person as well, depending on how data is interpreted and what degree of risk is deemed acceptable.

I do not know what you mean with both sides, however. Politically?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 21, 2020, 09:04:44 AM

Just got the test for active covid. Holy shit, they go DEEP, lol

Will know the results in a few days

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 21, 2020, 09:09:05 AM

Quote from: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 08:31:31 AM

Being in an area that was hit harder, I don't like the tendency some people have taken of "see, it's not that bad!"
Yes, not as bad as some of the most dire predictions which were also founded on the assumption that we would "do nothing".

"Not that bad" after 2 months of society at 75% isolation, with most schools, offices, retailers, sporting events, movie theaters closed.
We will NEVER know what would have happened had people not made that sacrifice.

Now, as things reopen, people still have to be smart, and make the right decisions for them before going out and mixing with a bunch of people.
This is not over. Do not devalue the sacrifice you have made over the last two months, or act like it was all in vain. Again, we DO NOT know what would have happened without people making the right decisions. We do NOT know what will happen as we move toward reopening.

My heart goes out to all the unemployed and the business owners who are suffering. The response to COVID has not been perfect. Maybe we could have started sooner with less aggressive measures. Maybe we could have been more fair to small mom and pop stores instead of just shutting down everything but the big box chains. There are countless problems that need to be addressed and will need to continue to be addressed over the next year. I hope that these are addressed and as many people as possible are made whole.

The response may have failed many. In the future, all we will learn about are the concrete ways in which the response failed, and we will never be able to be certain about just how successful it was, or what was avoided. A response that failed many is not the same thing as an unsuccessful response, don't think for a second that the sacrifices you made and will continue to make meant nothing!

Excellent post.

Though I'd say we might have an example of what would've happened had we not made the sacrifices and done the hard work (doing the hard work).  Look at Brazil.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 21, 2020, 09:10:04 AM

Many solid points made here.

I just look so forward to when this isn't an all consuming 24/7, inescapable situation.We have such a short attention span and the news cycle--even for mega stories--usually lasts about a week before something else comes along. This has been full-on for well over 2 months now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 09:11:05 AM

It's gonna be longer than 2 months. My money is on another wave in the fall that's just as bad if not worse. Winter's gonna get interesting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 09:14:01 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 09:04:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 07:54:41 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 07:40:20 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:14:52 AM

Hard to keep up with the changing "science" for this beast. Now the CDC says it doesn't transmit easily via surfaces. Initially it was heavy droplets that fell pretty rapidly. That opinion changed multiple times also. Another story claims that sheltering in place and not getting outside created a worst case scenario in NY at the peak of outbreak. There's a growing number of physicians that claim masks are not only useless but they actually make things worse.

Studies often take years of data and discussions with peers before a consensus is reached. And often different techniques/approaches showing the same phenomenon are required. What you see now is simply everyone wanting an answer where there are no (definitive) answers yet. Our experts have mostly used language that clearly indicates that (My hypothesis is, I am skeptical that, our data indicates etc.), but media often does a poor job in translating science to news articles. The actual publications of the scientists themselves almost always address all the potential limitations and research gaps. And usually I believe the media really should focus on published, peer-reviewed data, not only a scientist/doctor speaking his/her mind in an interview (though that is not a bad thing, expert opinions/predictions/insights matter). But I appreciate this is not always an option, as decisions have to be made right now.

DECISIONS do, but not final conclusions.   One of the basic tenets of crisis management - and we are in a crisis, it seems - is to continue to collect information in real time, only make those decisions that you absolutely have to WHEN you absolutely have to, and revisit the information that led to those decisions as frequently as is reasonable given the circumstances.   

Some people - on both sides - seem intent on arriving at grand conclusions and we're not even done with the crisis yet.   The post mortem can wait until the crime scene has been secured, roped off, and all evidence collected.

Yes, I agree. Though "when you absolutely have to" differs per person as well, depending on how data is interpreted and what degree of risk is deemed acceptable.

I do not know what you mean with both sides, however. Politically?

Yes, since it seems that for some, the reaction to the crisis seems to be about political boundaries as much as human ones. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 09:19:23 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 21, 2020, 09:11:05 AM

It's gonna be longer than 2 months. My money is on another wave in the fall that's just as bad if not worse. Winter's gonna get interesting.

Yup, I'll be working from home until Sept apparently.
I don't like it very much, to be honest. It's not as great as I thought it would be. I miss everything else more than I like working from home.

But while my company is telling me not to come in, I feel like I owe it to that privilege to be just as cautious in other ways. Perhaps I am part of a diminishing number of people who will be paid to stay at home on Zoom meetings all day. I am relatively young and healthy. I wouldn't feel unsafe mixing with the population and living my life as normal. But while I have the privilege to work at home I feel an obligation not to squander it by going out and mixing with people for any other reasons than getting food, doctors/vet vists, and essential supplies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 10:42:18 AM

Quote from: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 08:57:54 AM

I am fine if you don't want to qualify the response just yet, but it is just as wrong to characterize the nature and deadly potential of the virus while ignoring what role the response has played in making it appear much less threatening than what many in the media were predicting. My point is that there will be plenty of concrete reasons to chip away people's confidence that they did they right thing by staying in and canceling plans and making other sacrifices. We will never have anything but speculation and models telling us what scenarios we avoided, how much worse these things would have been than what we actually did experience, or whether other things could have been done earlier to make any sort of drastic response fully unnecessary. The country is now reopening and I really do hope as many people are made whole as possible.

And the key word is "speculation".  I get that this may be naive, but so be it.   If we know that "speculation" is problematic, why engage in it?   I work, largely, in risk management, and I've had to deal with this phenomenon for decades; "forecasting" what didn't happen.  And it's futile, in the long run.   Did that lawsuit not get filed because of my outstanding, well-crafted letter, or because of an executive decision by someone in their company that didn't even know my letter existed?  During my annual review, it was that friggin' letter, to be sure.   The reality?  Who knows? 

This same principle applies to "making people whole".  Sure, compassion says that no one should bear harm that they didn't cause, but that's not the world we live in.  What then is foreseeable?   Are all jobs the same in terms of predictability of income?  What about other things, like investments or 401(k)s?  Should everyone be whole there, too? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 21, 2020, 11:08:35 AM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on May 21, 2020, 09:04:44 AM

Just got the test for active covid. Holy shit, they go DEEP, lol

Will know the results in a few days

I've heard that the test is a "nasal swab".  That sounds harmless enough, but I've also heard it referred to as "tickling your brain via your nostrils".  So yeah, that sounds pretty damned invasive.  A small price to pay to find out whether or not you have a deadly virus, but... damn.  It seems like there'd be a less invasive way to get a mucus sample.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 21, 2020, 11:26:11 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 21, 2020, 11:08:35 AM

...but... damn.  It seems like there'd be a less invasive way to get a mucus sample.

Have you even seen Ghostbusters?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 21, 2020, 11:35:33 AM

My wife got that on Tuesday and she said it hurt for a full day after. They have you tilt your head back and go all the way through your sinuses and into the back of your throat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 09:14:01 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 09:04:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 07:54:41 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 21, 2020, 07:40:20 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:14:52 AM

Hard to keep up with the changing "science" for this beast. Now the CDC says it doesn't transmit easily via surfaces. Initially it was heavy droplets that fell pretty rapidly. That opinion changed multiple times also. Another story claims that sheltering in place and not getting outside created a worst case scenario in NY at the peak of outbreak. There's a growing number of physicians that claim masks are not only useless but they actually make things worse.

Studies often take years of data and discussions with peers before a consensus is reached. And often different techniques/approaches showing the same phenomenon are required. What you see now is simply everyone wanting an answer where there are no (definitive) answers yet. Our experts have mostly used language that clearly indicates that (My hypothesis is, I am skeptical that, our data indicates etc.), but media often does a poor job in translating science to news articles. The actual publications of the scientists themselves almost always address all the potential limitations and research gaps. And usually I believe the media really should focus on published, peer-reviewed data, not only a scientist/doctor speaking his/her mind in an interview (though that is not a bad thing, expert opinions/predictions/insights matter). But I appreciate this is not always an option, as decisions have to be made right now.

DECISIONS do, but not final conclusions.   One of the basic tenets of crisis management - and we are in a crisis, it seems - is to continue to collect information in real time, only make those decisions that you absolutely have to WHEN you absolutely have to, and revisit the information that led to those decisions as frequently as is reasonable given the circumstances.   

Some people - on both sides - seem intent on arriving at grand conclusions and we're not even done with the crisis yet.   The post mortem can wait until the crime scene has been secured, roped off, and all evidence collected.

Yes, I agree. Though "when you absolutely have to" differs per person as well, depending on how data is interpreted and what degree of risk is deemed acceptable.

I do not know what you mean with both sides, however. Politically?

Yes, since it seems that for some, the reaction to the crisis seems to be about political boundaries as much as human ones.

Ah, okay. Yeah, that is true. Politicians do need to get to decisions and they need to base their decisions on something. But some will push their agenda's without proper regard for evidence. But I wasn't aiming at that issue in my original post, I was talking more about why the claims of the medical/scientific community seem to be full of contradictions/reconsiderations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 12:37:56 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2020, 11:35:33 AM

My wife got that on Tuesday and she said it hurt for a full day after. They have you tilt your head back and go all the way through your sinuses and into the back of your throat.

And yet.... my wife had surgery yesterday and had to be tested on Monday in advance.  They did not stick the swab up her nose.    It was still uncomfortable, but it was through her mouth to the back of her throat.   (Her's was negative; maybe that's why there are so many false negatives (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/false-negatives-covid19-tests-symptoms-assume-you-have-illness); they didn't know how to do the test!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on May 21, 2020, 12:46:59 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:49:36 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 18, 2020, 10:36:42 AM

Just curious, if we started calling all buff black dudes Tyrone or all Mexicans Carlos, would that be as accepted as calling all uppity white women Karens or calling anybody over the age of 40 a boomer? Or is it only okay 'cause... because?

Karen isn't a descriptor of someone's race, culture, nationality, age, or religion. It is a descriptor based on their actions and attitude (and hairstyle). I read an article about how it was sexist. But it seemed like the author is the type of person who thinks everything is sexist, so I took it with a grain of salt.

It's only ever applied to white women, though, so it is. It's a general descriptor. It's exactly like a bigoted white person expressing their disdain for black people and using the word 'Tyrone' or 'Jamal' in their screeds. Karen specifically refers to white women. Find any article that talks about "Karens" - it's always a white woman. It's not okay no matter how you slice it, that's my point, it just causes more problems than it solves (which is nothing) because it devolves into namecalling.

Would you like to speak to a manager?   ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2020, 01:02:50 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2020, 11:35:33 AM

My wife got that on Tuesday and she said it hurt for a full day after. They have you tilt your head back and go all the way through your sinuses and into the back of your throat.

I thought they significantly improved the test so that it's not nearly as invasive and uncomfortable.   ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 21, 2020, 01:16:26 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2020, 01:02:50 PM

Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2020, 11:35:33 AM

My wife got that on Tuesday and she said it hurt for a full day after. They have you tilt your head back and go all the way through your sinuses and into the back of your throat.

I thought they significantly improved the test so that it's not nearly as invasive and uncomfortable.   ???

Gov Cuomo took a test on TV the other day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaOokzDnsic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaOokzDnsic) that goes pretty far up your nose.  I think because he's probably gotten the test many times, it's not as discomforting for him.  I don't recall my mother complaining about the test though.  I'm sure it's a different sensation for everyone.  I get the feeling I would not like it but I dont think it would stop me from getting it if needed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 21, 2020, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: Orbert on May 21, 2020, 11:08:35 AM

I've heard that the test is a "nasal swab".  That sounds harmless enough, but I've also heard it referred to as "tickling your brain via your nostrils".  So yeah, that sounds pretty damned invasive.  A small price to pay to find out whether or not you have a deadly virus, but... damn.  It seems like there'd be a less invasive way to get a mucus sample.

Boy, do I wish it was just a swab  :lol

Got it 6 hours ago and it still feels a little weird. It was like the stick was a dipstick and they were checking my oil. It goes WAY down. and stayed there for like 15 seconds.

But despite my bitching, I totally agree its a small price to pay to get a result. I've been short of breath and coughing violently for the past few days, so it was well worth it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on May 21, 2020, 04:28:46 PM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on May 21, 2020, 09:04:44 AM

Just got the test for active covid. Holy shit, they go DEEP, lol

Will know the results in a few days

At least the test was not anal.

I thought the tests only took a few minutes for results.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 21, 2020, 04:32:13 PM

My wife got the throat swab.







Easy guys. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 21, 2020, 04:35:38 PM

I've administered 7 throat swabs today.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GlisteningSecondaryIberianlynx-size_restricted.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 21, 2020, 04:38:27 PM

 :lol

ViVid19

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 06:04:46 PM

 :rollin

I like how Tim knew it was coming.









Giggity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 21, 2020, 10:54:34 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 21, 2020, 11:35:29 PM

Oh boy

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: a51502112 on May 22, 2020, 05:55:39 AM

Quote from: mike099 on May 21, 2020, 04:28:46 PM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on May 21, 2020, 09:04:44 AM

Just got the test for active covid. Holy shit, they go DEEP, lol

Will know the results in a few days

At least the test was not anal.

I thought the tests only took a few minutes for results.

Don't know how long it takes now, but my Son had it done 3 weeks ago and results took 6 days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 22, 2020, 06:55:37 AM

Quote from: a51502112 on May 22, 2020, 05:55:39 AM

Quote from: mike099 on May 21, 2020, 04:28:46 PM

At least the test was not anal.

I thought the tests only took a few minutes for results.

Don't know how long it takes now, but my Son had it done 3 weeks ago and results took 6 days.

That's pretty much what they said to me. Like 3-7 days depending on how busy the lab is at the moment. I know a lot of Emergency rooms have the faster test, but there's a lot more of the longer tests still in circulation.

I'm very curious to see the result since I have never had a fever at all, and feel great but have the nasty dry cough and shortness of breath.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 08:40:01 AM

It depends what you need it for; my wife's was 48 hours, to keep the window between "test" and "procedure" to a minimum, and my boss - who is going in for minor surgery next Thursday - is getting his done Tuesday. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 08:41:19 AM

So wait, can someone explain this to me? When Joe Rogan has a guest come in to do his podcast, they have them tested for COVID-19. Yet it seems to be instant, like, the doctor does it right there and then they just do the podcast a few minutes later. What are they doing that gives them instant results whereas you guys have to wait a week? Is it like a blood sample and they're able to see it right there?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 08:43:57 AM

Is it a full COVID test, or just temperature?   As I understand it (and I'm not suggesting I DO understand it) there are test kits out there, but it's also my understanding (AINSIDUI) that their accuracy leaves something to be desired.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 08:46:02 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 08:43:57 AM

Is it a full COVID test, or just temperature?   As I understand it (and I'm not suggesting I DO understand it) there are test kits out there, but it's also my understanding (AINSIDUI) that their accuracy leaves something to be desired.

I would assume a full test because at the start of almost every podcast Joe says something to the effect of, "[guest name], what's up? Tested for corona, you don't have it" etc. and he addressed it a month ago saying he wouldn't be using the test kits if there was a shortage in his area of LA, but I don't know what those test kits involve. In yesterday's episode he realized a few minutes after starting the podcast that they didn't test the guest, they stopped the show, and when they resumed, not much time had passed, it was done right there and they found out he didn't have COVID.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 22, 2020, 08:49:55 AM

I'm aware there are quick tests but I don't think those are readily available.  If you go to a test site you are likely getting the older test that takes a few days to get results.  I think we will see more of the faster test but it's not out there abundantly.  At least that's my understanding. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 22, 2020, 09:17:08 AM

There are instant test kits out there - that's what Trump uses every day IIRC.  I'm also pretty sure they are the ones that have the most false negative and false positive rates.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 22, 2020, 09:55:30 AM

There are two tests:  one for active covid and one for covid anti-bodies (neither involve taking you temperature)

Active covid involves them jamming the thing down your nose and results can be gotten in 30mins if its the more advanced test OR can be up to 5 days if its the older test. Different places have different tests.

Antibody test- They takes some of your blood and you get the results in 20 mins. This test shows if you your immune system has made anti bodies to fight the infection, basically shows if you had Covid and got over it. It DOES not test for active Covid and overall is a limited test.

*I got the antibody test on tuesday and it was negative, still felt crappy and work told me to go home and get the active test and don't come back until I am cleared.

I do not know what test Rogan is using, but considering none of the guests commented about how weird it felt to get something shoved down your nose, it would make me thing he's doing the blood test, but I don't know for sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 09:59:52 AM

Ahh, that must be it, then. Thanks Phoenix!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 22, 2020, 10:03:22 AM

No problem

It took me awhile to really wrap my head around it. There's a lot more too it all then I originally thought  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 22, 2020, 10:32:47 AM

And with a lot of tests, just like any other lab tests you would get, it isn't necessarily a factor of how much time the test itself takes; it is more a factor of lab tech availability to do whatever is necessary to process it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on May 23, 2020, 05:21:29 AM

Just train dogs to detect the bastard from urine samples, their smell is apparently good enough to distinguish it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on May 23, 2020, 02:06:47 PM

Bored and looking at Gulf shores and Panama City beach cams.  Quite a few people on the beaches and will be more tomorrow since most rentals are Weekly with late Saturday check in.  We are planning to go late June , but will wait until closer to departure date.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 24, 2020, 09:04:36 AM

Active Covid test came back negative, so that's a relief.

Still have shortness of breath and a cough, but no temperature. So I am gonna chalk this one up to allergies

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 24, 2020, 09:38:39 AM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on May 24, 2020, 09:04:36 AM

Active Covid test came back negative, so that's a relief.

Still have shortness of breath and a cough, but no temperature. So I am gonna chalk this one up to allergies

Good to hear. This time of year and the allergies are going to scare a lot of people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 24, 2020, 10:47:58 AM

Just came here to post the same thing.   My wife's test came back negative.  So either just a different kind of cold, or just bad allergies.  (there's wicked cottonwood out this year)

In any event, I'm back to work Tuesday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 24, 2020, 10:57:16 AM

Good to hear!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 24, 2020, 11:02:42 AM

dtf.org members: 2, Covid-19: 0.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 24, 2020, 01:49:29 PM

In early May, we opened our family social circle up to my in-laws.  Keeping my now 5 year old at home, without preschool, for 6 weeks straight was tough.  So for the last month, she has been  spending a day or two at my in-laws every week.

This weekend, my father in law saw his chiropractor.  Neither he, nor the chiropractor wore a mask during the appointment, and my father in law is being so flippant about it, like it's not a big deal.  So it looks like we may be keeping my daughter out of their house for two weeks.  We have until Tuesday to decide (since I have to go into my office that day and it would be easier if my daughter were at the in-laws). 

 >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 24, 2020, 04:32:50 PM

Then you see something like this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/second-stylist-same-missouri-hair-salon-tests-positive-nearly-140-n1214036

I fear this will snowball over the coming weeks. June should be real telling with many states lifting restrictions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 24, 2020, 05:49:25 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on May 24, 2020, 04:32:50 PM

Then you see something like this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/second-stylist-same-missouri-hair-salon-tests-positive-nearly-140-n1214036

I fear this will snowball over the coming weeks. June should be real telling with many states lifting restrictions.

Many stories like this -Missouri hair stylist; Arkansas pool party; these stories of new clusters will come fast and furious.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 25, 2020, 01:17:54 AM

I really hope we don't get a second wave, but looking around I have to say I would not be surprised. Like, at the parking lot near my flat was a group of 30-40 people having a party with the cars playing music. These people were sharing large balloons of nitrous oxide (extremely popular party drug here). All of them. Hanging out with a group of friends outside with some music on and a bit of distance should be fine. But what annoys me is that people have to take it further and even share balloons/drugs/whatnot. Also can't say I have ever seen a group of people doing drugs on this scale so publically. Guess the lack of pubs/clubs is really wearing on people. And Amsterdam was busy as hell last week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 25, 2020, 01:33:21 AM

In Italy the big issue of the moment is people overcrowding the bars zone. You see every day photos of zones where usually there was nightlife, which are completely crowded like if there was no pandemic around.

It's a double edged sword because on one hand, bars and restaurants DID open, and they are required to inforce social distancing, sanitizing, etc..., but on the other hand, if you allow people to go outside, they will just do it; nobody will "sacrifice" themselves and say "well, it's better to sit tight for a while", everyone will go out expecting somebody else to stay at home instead. I can't imagine anybody going into "Nightlife Trendy Street", seeing many people around, and go "oh shit it's better we go home". Once they've decided to have a night out, they will.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2020, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 25, 2020, 01:17:54 AM

I really hope we don't get a second wave, but looking around I have to say I would not be surprised. Like, at the parking lot near my flat was a group of 30-40 people having a party with the cars playing music. These people were sharing large balloons of nitrous oxide (extremely popular party drug here). All of them. Hanging out with a group of friends outside with some music on and a bit of distance should be fine. But what annoys me is that people have to take it further and even share balloons/drugs/whatnot. Also can't say I have ever seen a group of people doing drugs on this scale so publically. Guess the lack of pubs/clubs is really wearing on people. And Amsterdam was busy as hell last week.

Well, if they get it and get the bad case of the virus. It's on them, and no one else. They knew what they did and they have no one to blame but themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 25, 2020, 11:10:17 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 25, 2020, 01:33:21 AM

...but on the other hand, if you allow people to go outside, they will just do it; nobody will "sacrifice" themselves and say "well, it's better to sit tight for a while", everyone will go out expecting somebody else to stay at home instead.

Lots of people are going to sit tight for a while, and not out of any sense of sacrifice or selflessness. They just feel it better for themselves and their family not to hit their favorite restaurants right when they open up.

I read an article stating that the WA state Covid-19 dashboard has the note: “Our dashboard numbers do include any death to a person that has tested positive to COVID-9.” It was confirmed that 5 people who died of gunshot wounds were listed in the count as they had the virus when they died. I know everyone is making this up as we go but it is sad we will never have an accurate account of the deaths directly caused by the virus. Of course one is too many, but we get so caught up in the numbers (DATA! as our governor likes to say) and these numbers are not telling the full story.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 26, 2020, 07:56:52 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2020, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 25, 2020, 01:17:54 AM

I really hope we don't get a second wave, but looking around I have to say I would not be surprised. Like, at the parking lot near my flat was a group of 30-40 people having a party with the cars playing music. These people were sharing large balloons of nitrous oxide (extremely popular party drug here). All of them. Hanging out with a group of friends outside with some music on and a bit of distance should be fine. But what annoys me is that people have to take it further and even share balloons/drugs/whatnot. Also can't say I have ever seen a group of people doing drugs on this scale so publically. Guess the lack of pubs/clubs is really wearing on people. And Amsterdam was busy as hell last week.

Well, if they get it and get the bad case of the virus. It's on them, and no one else. They knew what they did and they have no one to blame but themselves.

While true, if it happens to enough people the hospitals will clutter again and then it becomes the problem of everyone in need of hospitalization. No matter which case statistics you look at, the truth is that many hospitals were under much strain early on already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 26, 2020, 09:25:19 AM

Well it seems my coronavacation is coming to an end this Friday, they're opening up the offices I work at for grab and go lunches. Staffing will be very minimal of course, and social distancing will be paramount. It will be very interesting to see what goes on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 26, 2020, 09:50:05 AM

Lots of covidiots out this weekend. These are the people that are going to fuck this up for everyone.

(https://preview.redd.it/kg3rzw23nk051.jpg?width=503&auto=webp&s=14bc036bbb9008b6dc4f84f46b8fa89d3f0cbd91)
(https://preview.redd.it/totl5po52cv41.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=865858d39c9df5bb1409507dfe6790556b06c061)
(https://preview.redd.it/utn84hvtnr051.jpg?width=410&auto=webp&s=ded246c54137a30e934b6e20af0759190288c1f3)
(https://preview.redd.it/bbtsm7j4dr051.jpg?width=891&auto=webp&s=3752e9d32d51561c2f0142936d05e877be163e7a)
(https://preview.redd.it/2h6kbmn4jw051.jpg?width=538&auto=webp&s=1f0000154955f9e82cb43611bfa86d41c157bf11)
(https://images.thestar.com/K8O6xog9duE9oMhPDr4eqZUkRlk=/968x495/smart/filters:cb(1590465623610)/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/opinion/star-columnists/2020/05/25/we-screwed-up-toronto-trinity-bellwoods-park-looked-more-like-a-scene-out-of-coachella-19-than-life-under-covid-19/trinity_bellwoods.jpg)
(https://i.redd.it/r3jyhk79ck051.jpg)
(https://preview.redd.it/kdaygqvt8e051.jpg?width=576&auto=webp&s=6f25517241a0d5ea2736c315ce503dff30a048cf)
(https://preview.redd.it/0jn20bi1js051.jpg?width=720&auto=webp&s=167142bfe4f795e6e34d489c39df3bc6fa574186)
(https://preview.redd.it/wdt120799p051.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=f6befe158e739620dba5b47ab6472227c1b1125f)
(https://i.redd.it/cn40rzsqzj051.jpg)
(https://preview.redd.it/g94blhssxm051.jpg?width=431&auto=webp&s=ce58d8e5a857656b719d8e3e204a8a729bd1bfd5)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2020, 10:21:19 AM

Most if not all of those fall into two categories that I don't get:
1.  If you legitimately think the government's reaction to the pandemic was incorrect and that the destruction of the economy is too high a price to pay, I can understand that.  But I can't understand feeling that your subjective understanding of how the world should work is so superior that you think it's cool to make the majority of people around you uncomfortable at best, and unnecessarily exposed to a serious health risk at worst.
2.  Covid-19 or no Covid-19, I don't see any attraction whatsoever to being elbow to elbow with huge crowds of people in the heat for no apparent reason. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 26, 2020, 10:37:32 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2020, 10:21:19 AM

Most if not all of those fall into two categories that I don't get:
1.  If you legitimately think the government's reaction to the pandemic was incorrect and that the destruction of the economy is too high a price to pay, I can understand that.  But I can't understand feeling that your subjective understanding of how the world should work is so superior that you think it's cool to make the majority of people around you uncomfortable at best, and unnecessarily exposed to a serious health risk at worst.
2.  Covid-19 or no Covid-19, I don't see any attraction whatsoever to being elbow to elbow with huge crowds of people in the heat for no apparent reason.

+1.

I don't even like being elbow to elbow with shirted people at concerts. OUT OF MY BUBBLE!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 26, 2020, 10:49:29 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 26, 2020, 09:50:05 AM

Lots of covidiots out this weekend. These are the people that are going to fuck this up for everyone.
 *snipped*

Future Darwin award winners.

Like seriously... there are no words.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 26, 2020, 10:52:28 AM

OMG of course the two gals from Belfield are both Karen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 26, 2020, 10:53:25 AM

^^ methinks that's a photoshop, considering the questionable quality of the font there and how it says mematic at the bottom

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 26, 2020, 11:21:51 AM

That girl with the mask-ini looks like a Storm Thorgerson album cover outtake. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 26, 2020, 11:36:33 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 26, 2020, 11:21:51 AM

That girl with the mask-ini looks like a Storm Thorgerson album cover outtake. 

 :lol

Moved from the irritated thread:

Quote from: Stadler on May 26, 2020, 10:49:58 AM

I get it, it's totally anecdotal and useless in terms of any analysis, but the house directly across the street:  big heart in the front window with a rainbow... and those stupid fuckerspeople spend all day Sunday in their side yard - about 25 of them - pounding beer, eating pizza and otherwise thumbing their nose at any and all seemingly not engaging in COVID-19 preventative measures.  Actually, one woman showed up with a mask, and a guy said something to her and she took it off, laughing, and that was the only mask I saw all day.   

Where is the line now? My family went to my sister's house this weekend. 2 families, 4 adults, 4 kids. 3 adults working from home, 1 adult furloughed, all 4 kids home from school/daycare, everyone limiting their exposure as much as possible (limiting trips to essential purposes, wearing masks while in stores, etc...) Are we stupid fuckers thumbing our noses at any and all?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 26, 2020, 11:51:36 AM

I apologize if you feel judged; not my intent.  When I said it was anecdotal, I was hoping to encompass scenarios like yours.  But that gathering Sunday across the street was in direct violation of our governor's guidance.  Now, I'm not a nosy Nelly, and I am not one to put calls in on stuff like that.  But I think it does go to the surficiality of some of the gestures by some of the people.   I don't expect that the guy who defaced his own pick-up truck with his sloganeering (and bad spelling) has too many "hearts" and "rainbows" signs on his house, but if you're going to say you respect the people who are endangering themselves to help the rest of us, I would think that would require at least a modicum of effort. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 26, 2020, 12:05:35 PM

There are actually recommendations on how to thoughtfully expand your quarantine circle:  https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/quarantine-circle-public-health-experts-quaranteam

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 26, 2020, 12:06:10 PM

I knew you were trying to make a bigger point that "Dudes across the street had a BBQ" so I hesitated to jump in. But it got me thinking. I knew our visit was against our state's guidelines, but as you would say, by our own calculus we made the decision to proceed.

Another event this weekend also got me thinking. We were at the park for a walk, and saw some people spray paint the paved walkway. That shit pisses me off to no end (I posted a rant about it in the 'Pissed Off' thread a while ago) and I called the cops. I would have approached them if my family wasn't with me. Biggest crime of the century? No, but defacing public property, especially a park, deserves a chat with Johnny. At the same time, it never would occur to me to call in a sighting of some guys playing basketball or volleyball in the park (both of which I saw while driving), or any other sort of gathering in a public or private place. Maybe that is hypocritical of me, but it makes sense within my own philosophy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2020, 12:14:11 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2020, 12:05:35 PM

There are actually recommendations on how to thoughtfully expand your quarantine circle:  https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/quarantine-circle-public-health-experts-quaranteam

I think most people who take this seriously and have given critical thought to how this works, and apply that to decisions on what to do and not do have come to a lot of similar conclusions as what is posted there.  But still very helpful.

Something a lot of us have been saying, but I think is very nicely and succinctly put from that article is this (emphasis mine):

Quote

This isn't just about individuals. This is about public health and the spread [of the virus], and the fact that we don't know who's a carrier and who's not, for the most part.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 26, 2020, 12:29:05 PM

I'd say that USA's problem is that, absurdingly, having won the two World Wars and having never being invaded backfired, because people do not have the slightest clue about what it actually and REALLY means having your freedom taken away.

But then again those kind of idiots are abundant also in Italy where our grandfathers died in a war thrusted upon us by a dictatorhsip, and they are also everywhere in the world, so....... I'm not sure how a dose of REAL oppresion in the past would have helped anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on May 26, 2020, 04:34:05 PM

Looking at the covidiots......hey, so you won't get it, or you believe your man upstairs won't let you get it.  If you are asymptomatic, aren't you concerned that the pregnant women or health professional next to you might get it from you?  Or that they are caring for an elderly parent who is susceptible? 

Again, is 'no shirts no shoes no service' infringing on your constitutional rights? 

I'm outraged!!!  For decades, golf courses I've played have insisted on no ratty jeans or cutoffs, and one must wear a collared shirt.  I had no idea that my civil rights were being trampled on all this time. :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on May 26, 2020, 06:01:47 PM

^^ Those guys are just morons and don't care about anyone but themselves.  They'll change their tune if they get it, but they wouldn't care if anyone (that's not important to them) around them gets it.  It's pretty sad that there are people like that around in this rather tumultuous times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 07:37:05 AM

I wish I could say I'm surprised, though.   This is just the latest iteration of what I think we've been experiencing for a while, and if one wants to look hard enough, it transcends party, it transcends education, it transcends economics...   we're not really a "MeToo" nation, we're a "MeFirst" nation.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 27, 2020, 08:43:51 AM

Work has extended our work from home until the end of the year as of yesterday's announcemnet.  They expect some teams to phase back in before then, but for most people, they will not be returning to the office this year.  Crazy, we are only half way through 2020.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 27, 2020, 08:47:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 07:37:05 AM

I wish I could say I'm surprised, though.   This is just the latest iteration of what I think we've been experiencing for a while, and if one wants to look hard enough, it transcends party, it transcends education, it transcends economics...   we're not really a "MeToo" nation, we're a "MeFirst" nation.

Don't tread on me, mofo!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 09:02:54 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2020, 08:43:51 AM

Work has extended our work from home until the end of the year as of yesterday's announcemnet.  They expect some teams to phase back in before then, but for most people, they will not be returning to the office this year.  Crazy, we are only half way through 2020.

I wish I'd get some clarity from my company on this. I suspect it will last through the summer, but they haven't said anything. They could call us back in next week. I'm loving working from home and would love to do it 3-4 days a week permanently. I've told my boss this, but she has no idea either what the company has in mind.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2020, 09:10:11 AM

Quote from: KatteFox on May 27, 2020, 08:47:43 AM

Quote from: Stapler on May 27, 2020, 07:37:05 AM

I wish I could say I'm surprised, though.   This is just the latest iteration of what I think we've been experiencing for a while, and if one wants to look hard enough, it transcends party, it transcends education, it transcends economics...   we're not really a "MeToo" nation, we're a "MeFirst" nation.

Don't tread on me, mofo!

#Donttreatonmetoo

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 27, 2020, 09:10:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2020, 08:43:51 AM

Work has extended our work from home until the end of the year as of yesterday's announcemnet.  They expect some teams to phase back in before then, but for most people, they will not be returning to the office this year.  Crazy, we are only half way through 2020.

It's weird to think of how working from home might become the norm.

At my work, they asked us to organize the summer holidays and the team that mainly answers phone calls has been asked if possible to avoid September "in view of a possible comeback to work".

So there's a chance I'll spend the entire summer at home.... this coming June, July AND August working from home. That would be for me a saving of 250 euros for the monthly subway fee, which a converter translates into 274,43 $ saved.

Ehr..... "thanks" Covid for these 274 dollars saved I guess?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 09:17:34 AM

I bought a new car in FEBRUARY, and I've put one tank of gas in there.  I've found myself grabbing a CD just to take a drive as an excuse to run them once in a while.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 27, 2020, 09:33:34 AM

Just announced: No merit increases for anyone in the corporation for 2020. Small price to pay I guess. Stl have a job and health insurance.

I don't get the great mask divide. Trump is spearheading this battle and his minions act as if It's an act of treason to bow down and wear a mask. Whatever. I'll keep wearing one in public until I feel It's safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 27, 2020, 09:35:06 AM

Working from home is going to become pretty interesting in the coming months. If this only went on for a month or two, I don't think anything would have changed. But the longer this goes on, the better chance it has of becoming more permanent. If this lasts for 9 or 12 months and revenues don't change, shareholders are going to eventually ask why we continue spending what could be dividends on buildings and utilities.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2020, 09:46:50 AM

Here in my state, government workers have a pretty widespread reputation for being lazy and entitled.  (I'm guessing government workers in other places have similar reputations)  And while I have discovered during my time in working for the state that there are a LOT of us who are diligent, work hard, and do not deserve that reputation, there are certainly plenty who have earned it in spades. 

I know that furloughs are coming for a lot of state workers.  But once this is over, whether people are back on full schedule or part schedule, I am sure teleworking will be much more prevalent.  For those who have been diligent and productive during this time, there is simply no reason not to allow it to continue.  And for the lazy and entitled bunch, I am sure there will be such a loud demand from them and the unions that it will be allowed and used on a much bigger basis than in the past.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 27, 2020, 09:50:36 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 09:17:34 AM

I bought a new car in FEBRUARY, and I've put one tank of gas in there.  I've found myself grabbing a CD just to take a drive as an excuse to run them once in a while.

Quote from: Chino on May 27, 2020, 09:35:06 AM

Working from home is going to become pretty interesting in the coming months. If this only went on for a month or two, I don't think anything would have changed. But the longer this goes on, the better chance it has of becoming more permanent. If this lasts for 9 or 12 months and revenues don't change, shareholders are going to eventually ask why we continue spending what could be dividends on buildings and utilities.

I was just writing about some of this in the general discusssion thread.  I think my gas savings from driving 70 miles a day have been fairly significant.  About $150 a month (well, before gas prices tanked).  But also, work has put a lot of money into getting people to be able to work from home (AKA, making sure people have keyboards/monitors and whatnot) that it only makes sense to leave some of these people at home when this is over since we set everything up for them to do it.  In fact, they stopped calling it "work from home" and now use the phrase "work from anywhere" and I think it will be thing long term for many.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 27, 2020, 10:47:39 AM

We had a meeting last week where the whole subject was what we accomplished WFH during this time. There was also a survey about WFH that the State sent out.
We let our boss know that we would be disappointed if things went back to the way they were but at least they're talking about it. There is a new level of risk going into the office now that wasn't there before the pandemic.

And Bosk1, State workers here also have that same reputation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on May 27, 2020, 10:57:16 AM

So much of the problem right now is that it seems like the prolonged lockdowns in many states with no known end date simply accelerated the decline of other non-lockdown measures from a public health issue into a political issue. And of course abysmal leadership on the federal level put all that into overdrive. Masks right now shouldn't be a political issue, we should have come into them united politically just knowing we were going to help keep each other safe. But the moment you have the 35-40% of people who would support Trump if he shot their mother on 5th avenue believing the mask is a political attack on them any attempt to keep the public safe through those means is immediately going to be a failure.

Once you have food places opening up more and health inspectors come in, if they see cockroaches, uncapped bleach bottles, or what have you it'll be fines and business as usual, but the moment they start issuing citations because people don't have a mask on it's going to turn into some sort of political battlefield when it absolutely should not be. At this point it is just depressing to me. I get the lockdown and why it has its backlash and difficulties, but when it comes to social distancing measures and masks for the most part it just shows are failings as a country and often times as people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 27, 2020, 11:06:39 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 09:17:34 AM

I bought a new car in FEBRUARY, and I've put one tank of gas in there.  I've found myself grabbing a CD just to take a drive as an excuse to run them once in a while.

I went the opposite. Taking long rides have been one of the things keeping me sane, I've covered a good deal of Nor Cal in the last two months, and probably put 4k miles on my car. :lol


To the work at home thing, let's hope for my sake that it doesn't stick too well. My career depends on people going to the office. Fortunately my section of the tech industry (Lyft) requires a certain amount of people in the office and out in the field for driver/scooter support. Going back to work tomorrow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 27, 2020, 11:06:55 AM

Quote from: Nick on May 27, 2020, 10:57:16 AM

Masks right now shouldn't be a political issue

This is what drives me insane. Wearing a mask is literally the simplest thing in the world to do and can help stop the spread of this virus. The fact that wearing a mask has been politicized is insane. I live in a very 'red' area. Lots of good ol' boys driving trucks around with Trump flags attached to their trucks.....far more 'red' than 'blue' going on in my area.

The looks I get when I go inside any store wearing my gloves and mask are hilarious. It's like I'm Karl Marx himself walking through the canned good aisle. People are disgusted with you for wearing an F'n mask? All I'm doing is trying to help protect YOU and me.....and yet it's like I've somehow agreed to marry Nancy Pelosi. It's nuts...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2020, 09:46:50 AM

Here in my state, government workers have a pretty widespread reputation for being lazy and entitled.  (I'm guessing government workers in other places have similar reputations)  And while I have discovered during my time in working for the state that there are a LOT of us who are diligent, work hard, and do not deserve that reputation, there are certainly plenty who have earned it in spades.

I know that furloughs are coming for a lot of state workers.  But once this is over, whether people are back on full schedule or part schedule, I am sure teleworking will be much more prevalent... And for the lazy and entitled bunch, I am sure there will be such a loud demand from them and the unions that it will be allowed and used on a much bigger basis than in the past.

Not to turn this political, but two large cities in WA (not Seattle-large, but second tier large) announced staff layoffs due to decreased revenue (sales tax, B&O tax, etc...). And of course there is outrage from these public workers. "How can you lay off employees in such a time as this?!?" What the hell did you think was going to happen? How do you think you get your salaries? Have you not noticed your "non-essential" friends and neighbors getting laid off/furloughed? If you looked closely, there's a good chance the city can run just fine without you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2020, 11:28:04 AM

Without getting too lost in the legal weeds, there is actually a basis in law for that "entitlement" mentality, even if a lot of them don't understand the "why" of it.  At least here in CA, unlike regular old private sector employment, government employment is held by statute, and there is a (state) constitutional property right to public employment once you are hired.  There are TONS more protections than if someone is employed in the private sector, and the unions are VERY aggressive about protecting those.  So a lot of folks naturally get the mindset that once they get hired on as public servants, they have a job for life and nobody can take that from them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on May 27, 2020, 11:29:11 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

Good point, and generally it may skew more towards the latter in the broader populace. But when you get to the segment of the population that is going to really make a stink about it, looking back at some of Chino's pictures and openly defying it for ideological reasons, I think you'll fly very quickly back to the former.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:40:19 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2020, 11:28:04 AM

So a lot of folks naturally get the mindset that once they get hired on as public servants, they have a job for life and nobody can take that from them.

My wife works for the school district; I am very aware of this. Staff have continuing and non-continuing contracts. Non-continuing need to be renewed at the end of the year. She was trying to hire a para last summer and the candidate would only take the job if it is was on a continuing contract. Of course she'd rather have that job indefinitely, who wouldn't? But I've seen this lady in action (literally, as my wife is teaching virtually from home) and she [i/needs[/i] that security. Heaven forbid she be required to do a good job to ensure continual employment.

Quote from: Nick on May 27, 2020, 11:29:11 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

Good point, and generally it may skew more towards the latter in the broader populace. But when you get to the segment of the population that is going to really make a stink about it, looking back at some of Chino's pictures and openly defying it for ideological reasons, I think you'll fly very quickly back to the former.

Correct on the second part, but how much of that is because they are the loudest. No one who feels "eh, I don't really care" about any issue isn't going to post on Instaface about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 12:17:17 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

I don't wear a mask when I'm not required to. For me it mostly boils down to I don't want to, but there are some other less rational reasons that it's not worth getting into. It has -1000% to do with Trump for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 27, 2020, 01:02:38 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 27, 2020, 09:33:34 AM

Just announced: No merit increases for anyone in the corporation for 2020. Small price to pay I guess. Stl have a job and health insurance.

At least you're not seeing a pay cut like many (including my) companies have instituted.  Entire company got a pay decrease of 5%; Managers 10%.  I think GM made everyone take a 20% haircut.

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 12:17:17 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

I don't wear a mask when I'm not required to. For me it mostly boils down to I don't want to, but there are some other less rational reasons that it's not worth getting into. It has -1000% to do with Trump for me.

Ignoring the obvious question (why don't you want to), I'll ask a different one, and I'm 100% serious - do you wear a seatbelt when driving?  If so, what fundamental difference is there between seatbelts and masks that cause you be ok with the use one, but not the other?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 01:28:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 27, 2020, 01:02:38 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 12:17:17 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

I don't wear a mask when I'm not required to. For me it mostly boils down to I don't want to, but there are some other less rational reasons that it's not worth getting into. It has -1000% to do with Trump for me.

Ignoring the obvious question (why don't you want to), I'll ask a different one, and I'm 100% serious - do you wear a seatbelt when driving?  If so, what fundamental difference is there between seatbelts and masks that cause you be ok with the use one, but not the other?

Those aren't really even close to the same thing, but I'll play along. I don't find seat belts uncomfortable and they don't cover my face in an annoying way. And there aren't easy alternatives to seat belts that offer basically the same protections. In the case of masks: I don't go out much, I stay away from crowded areas, and I don't get close to people when I am out. Same benefits without the annoying side effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 27, 2020, 02:14:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 01:28:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 27, 2020, 01:02:38 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 12:17:17 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

I don't wear a mask when I'm not required to. For me it mostly boils down to I don't want to, but there are some other less rational reasons that it's not worth getting into. It has -1000% to do with Trump for me.

Ignoring the obvious question (why don't you want to), I'll ask a different one, and I'm 100% serious - do you wear a seatbelt when driving?  If so, what fundamental difference is there between seatbelts and masks that cause you be ok with the use one, but not the other?

Those aren't really even close to the same thing, but I'll play along. I don't find seat belts uncomfortable and they don't cover my face in an annoying way. And there aren't easy alternatives to seat belts that offer basically the same protections. In the case of masks: I don't go out much, I stay away from crowded areas, and I don't get close to people when I am out. Same benefits without the annoying side effects.

Agreed.  I also wouldn't be inclined to make that comparison.  A seat belt is like 2nd nature to me now compared to when I first started driving and didn't wear one at all.  A mask is much different and rather uncomfortable while restricting breathing.  However, if I have to wear one, it's only for a short time during grocery store visits and getting a hair cut yesterday for the first time in months!  :eek

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 27, 2020, 02:29:16 PM

The biggest difference I see is that a seat belt protects you.  Statistics show unequivocably that your chances of surviving an accident are higher if you're wearing a seat belt.

The primary purpose of a face mask is to protect others.  It isn't actually very effective at filtering what you breathe in, but even the most basic mask, even just a hanky over your mouth, helps prevent you from spraying germs around when you talk.

People are more likely to do something if it helps them, than to do something which primarily helps others, especially if there's personal inconvenience involved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 27, 2020, 02:29:33 PM

And I take the practical approach. I don't get out a lot and don't really see people and because of the sparse population in this small town, I don't feel the need to wear a mask when walking around the park trail because if we may by a couple of people we just give ourselves some distance. I will wear a mask if I go inside a big grocery store but I haven't done that in months thanks to the curbside pickup. Also, we keep hand sanitizer in both cars so if I go to say the pharmacy I just lather up when I get back in the car and then wash my hands when I get home. I think this is a reasonable approach.

Now if I lived in NY or New Orleans or some large city, my approach would be COMPLETELY different.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 02:43:34 PM

I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me, but I'm really chagrined at the assumption that it's just "Trump lovers" that are saying "no" to masks.  Where I live, generally, that couldn't be further from the truth.   And the more that trope gets ingrained, the MORE political the issue will be. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 27, 2020, 02:54:09 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 02:43:34 PM

I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me, but I'm really chagrined at the assumption that it's just "Trump lovers" that are saying "no" to masks.  Where I live, generally, that couldn't be further from the truth.   And the more that trope gets ingrained, the MORE political the issue will be.

Gotta be honest, around here, it's not all just Trump lovers, but if they're not Trump lovers, they're extremely anti-governor Pritzker (a democrat). When I went to the grocery store Sunday, I saw no less than two minivans with painted slogans all over their windows like "RECALL PRITZKER! MASKS DON'T WORK!" etc.  :lol :lol fucking rubes

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 27, 2020, 03:12:27 PM

I think masks aren't the end all solution to this, but I've seen some studies show they are most certainly effective on some degree on preventing transmission.  If you want to have your friends over and not wear them, have at it, but if you are in a grocery store where people occasionally need to be to survive, please do everyone a favor and just put it on for 30 minutes.  I really don't think it's asking much and no one says it's THE solution, it just helps everyone.  Politicizing this just makes me annoyed and shows America's true colors, which is definitely happening.  Having said that, it's required here so most of the protesting I see or hear about are people just being vocal about it, not really defying it and putting others at risk (although I'm sure it's happened) which while I don't agree, is at least better than endangering others just to make whatever point you are trying to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 27, 2020, 04:00:57 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2020, 03:12:27 PM

Politicizing this just makes me annoyed and shows America's true colors, which is definitely happening.

Anything politicized annoys the shit outta me, but it goes way beyond just Americans.  It's happening all over the world.  The virus doesn't discriminate or choose political affiliations.  Reminds me of that movie "Aliens" when Ripley says, "I don't know which species is worse.  You don't see them fucking each other over for goddamn percentage."  :lol  That was classic!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nick on May 27, 2020, 06:16:55 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 02:43:34 PM

I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me, but I'm really chagrined at the assumption that it's just "Trump lovers" that are saying "no" to masks.  Where I live, generally, that couldn't be further from the truth.   And the more that trope gets ingrained, the MORE political the issue will be. 

Again, for your day to day everyone can be annoyed by masks and people from every walk of life probably isn't wearing them always when they should. That being said it is, absolutely the Trump leaning folks who will blow this up and become militant and insane about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on May 28, 2020, 12:15:02 AM

My jobsite opened back up on the 11th, but I waited another 2 weeks to see how they would implement the protocols. Perhaps the optics of being a high profile building in downtown San Jose has something to do with it, but it seems they're taking it relatively seriously.

After 2 days of being back, I've noticed compliance is pretty universal for facemasks, less so for 6' separation (impractical at times), but they do maintain spacing lining up in the morning waiting to have a FLIR camera pointed at your eyes to verify you don't have a fever. We even have running hot water sinks!  :o

My contractor provided me with 5 reusable cloth facemasks, which as an aside, baffles me that the color variety pack is a different color on the inside of the mask.  ???

Anyways, I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks whether we ramped things up too quickly or not...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 28, 2020, 06:40:53 AM

So far I've detected 2 categories of mask resistance. Those that hate wearing them because they have a hard time breathing/they itch/vanity.

And then the Trump led group We all know their stance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

I think that's different than the "you can't take away my freedoms" crowd.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:05:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 01:28:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 27, 2020, 01:02:38 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 12:17:17 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

I don't wear a mask when I'm not required to. For me it mostly boils down to I don't want to, but there are some other less rational reasons that it's not worth getting into. It has -1000% to do with Trump for me.

Ignoring the obvious question (why don't you want to), I'll ask a different one, and I'm 100% serious - do you wear a seatbelt when driving?  If so, what fundamental difference is there between seatbelts and masks that cause you be ok with the use one, but not the other?

Those aren't really even close to the same thing, but I'll play along. I don't find seat belts uncomfortable and they don't cover my face in an annoying way. And there aren't easy alternatives to seat belts that offer basically the same protections. In the case of masks: I don't go out much, I stay away from crowded areas, and I don't get close to people when I am out. Same benefits without the annoying side effects.

I appreciate the response (and those from others), and I guess all I can say is 'to each their own'.  I do think they are very close from a perspective of being a tool/instrument to reduce risk of injury or health impact in certain situations.  Is it a perfect comparison, no.  But while neither a mask or seatbelt protect 100%, they can significantly reduce risk against what they are designed to protect against.  By no means am I advocating that the instant anyone steps outside their house, they need to wear a mask.  When in public situations where 6 ft distancing is not feasible, those are the situations that warrant it.  Similar to a seatbelt, when you're in a car, you wear a seatbelt.  Do you need one on a bike, a boat, a golf cart ... not necessary.

That's just my perspective.

I guess the mild discomfort and any 'annoyance' I experience from wearing one (the ones I have get very uncomfortable around my ears after any prolonged usage), is worth it if I'm reducing the possibility of someone having to experience the discomfort of a tube stuck down their throat.  Yes, I'm being rather hyperbolic, but I just see it as a means of doing my part.

As I said, to each their own.

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

100,000 dead is overblown?  I mean, if taking steps to improve public heath is "buying into fear"... well, I have no response to that.  Did you refuse to 'buy into the fear' of flying after 9/11 when a mere 5000-ish were killed from terrorists in planes?  Where was the outrage at airport security measures?  I'm sorry, I just don't get these perspectives.

But, to each their own.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 28, 2020, 07:11:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:05:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

100,000 dead is overblown?  I mean, if taking steps to improve public heath is "buying into fear"... well, I have no response to that.  Did you refuse to 'buy into the fear' of flying after 9/11 when a mere 5000-ish were killed from terrorists in planes?  Where was the outrage at airport security measures?  I'm sorry, I just don't get these perspectives.

But, to each their own.

I'm not disagreeing with you (the complete opposite actually), but 100,000 or 358,000 means nothing to most people. Most likely, they do not know anyone with that tested positive for the virus, much less someone who landed in the hospital or died because of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:14:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:05:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

100,000 dead is overblown?

Well, there's plenty of evidence that that the number of deaths are being overcounted for a number of reasons (we discussed it here weeks ago). For people who buy fully into that, and compare this to a bad flu season that can kill 60,000 where we do absolutely nothing, yes, they would consider the response to be overblown. Not saying I necessarily agree, but I can see their logic.

Quote from: Vmadera00 on May 28, 2020, 07:11:41 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you (the complete opposite actually), but 100,000 or 358,000 means nothing to most people. Most likely, they do not know anyone with that tested positive for the virus, much less someone who landed in the hospital or died because of it.

Definitely this too. It doesn't seem real to most people. Throw in my point above and the numbers become meaningless to many.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on May 28, 2020, 07:15:21 AM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on May 28, 2020, 12:15:02 AM

My jobsite opened back up on the 11th, but I waited another 2 weeks to see how they would implement the protocols. Perhaps the optics of being a high profile building in downtown San Jose has something to do with it, but it seems they're taking it relatively seriously.

After 2 days of being back, I've noticed compliance is pretty universal for facemasks, less so for 6' separation (impractical at times), but they do maintain spacing lining up in the morning waiting to have a FLIR camera pointed at your eyes to verify you don't have a fever. We even have running hot water sinks!  :o

My contractor provided me with 5 reusable cloth facemasks, which as an aside, baffles me that the color variety pack is a different color on the inside of the mask.  ???

Anyways, I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks whether we ramped things up too quickly or not...

How is it wearing a mask all day? We are supposed to return to work June 16th and questions, fever checks and masks are mandatory.  I can barely wear a mask thru a shopping trip, so we will see how this works and how many people actually wear them all day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:23:11 AM

Quote from: mike099 on May 28, 2020, 07:15:21 AM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on May 28, 2020, 12:15:02 AM

My jobsite opened back up on the 11th, but I waited another 2 weeks to see how they would implement the protocols. Perhaps the optics of being a high profile building in downtown San Jose has something to do with it, but it seems they're taking it relatively seriously.

After 2 days of being back, I've noticed compliance is pretty universal for facemasks, less so for 6' separation (impractical at times), but they do maintain spacing lining up in the morning waiting to have a FLIR camera pointed at your eyes to verify you don't have a fever. We even have running hot water sinks!  :o

My contractor provided me with 5 reusable cloth facemasks, which as an aside, baffles me that the color variety pack is a different color on the inside of the mask.  ???

Anyways, I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks whether we ramped things up too quickly or not...

How is it wearing a mask all day? We are supposed to return to work June 16th and questions, fever checks and masks are mandatory.  I can barely wear a mask thru a shopping trip, so we will see how this works and how many people actually wear them all day.

I have to wear one when I go into my office, which I do for 2-4 hours at a time once a week or so. My ears hurt like hell by the end of it. If I was there all day long I'd figure out a more comfortable solution. I have a pretty big deal so I think the mask is pulling more for me than for most others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:23:11 AM

Quote from: mike099 on May 28, 2020, 07:15:21 AM

Quote from: Fiery Winds on May 28, 2020, 12:15:02 AM

My jobsite opened back up on the 11th, but I waited another 2 weeks to see how they would implement the protocols. Perhaps the optics of being a high profile building in downtown San Jose has something to do with it, but it seems they're taking it relatively seriously.

After 2 days of being back, I've noticed compliance is pretty universal for facemasks, less so for 6' separation (impractical at times), but they do maintain spacing lining up in the morning waiting to have a FLIR camera pointed at your eyes to verify you don't have a fever. We even have running hot water sinks!  :o

My contractor provided me with 5 reusable cloth facemasks, which as an aside, baffles me that the color variety pack is a different color on the inside of the mask.  ???

Anyways, I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks whether we ramped things up too quickly or not...

How is it wearing a mask all day? We are supposed to return to work June 16th and questions, fever checks and masks are mandatory.  I can barely wear a mask thru a shopping trip, so we will see how this works and how many people actually wear them all day.

I have to wear one when I go into my office, which I do for 2-4 hours at a time once a week or so. My ears hurt like hell by the end of it. If I was there all day long I'd figure out a more comfortable solution. I have a pretty big deal so I think the mask is pulling more for me than for most others.

Quote from: Vmadera00 on May 28, 2020, 07:11:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:05:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

100,000 dead is overblown?  I mean, if taking steps to improve public heath is "buying into fear"... well, I have no response to that.  Did you refuse to 'buy into the fear' of flying after 9/11 when a mere 5000-ish were killed from terrorists in planes?  Where was the outrage at airport security measures?  I'm sorry, I just don't get these perspectives.

But, to each their own.

I'm not disagreeing with you (the complete opposite actually), but 100,000 means nothing to most people. Most likely, they do not know anyone with that tested positive for the virus, much less someone who landed in the hospital or died because of it.

And yet there are so many examples where segments of society lose their shit over issues where mere hundreds, dozens or even single digit number of American lives were lost.  Mass shootings, terror attacks (domestic or abroad), BLM etc..

:dunno:

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:14:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:05:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

100,000 dead is overblown?

Well, there's plenty of evidence that that the number of deaths are being overcounted for a number of reasons (we discussed it here weeks ago). For people who buy fully into that, and compare this to a bad flu season that can kill 60,000 where we do absolutely nothing, yes, they would consider the response to be overblown. Not saying I necessarily agree, but I can see their logic.

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have.

As for the overcounting, I'm not going to venture a guess. But the powers that be are pretty open about the fact that they're counting deaths of people with Covid-19 and not deaths because of Covid-19 (see the post about 5 murder victims being counted as Covid-19 deaths a page or two back, and the long string of posts we had here a couple weeks ago). Plus the doctors coming out and saying they're being encouraged to mark deaths as Covid related even if there's no proof they are. There's definitely enough to make people suspicious. If you're a person that tends to buy into that kind of stuff, it's really easy to discount the danger.

Plus add in that (at least in my state) 80% of the deaths are happening in nursing homes or elderly care facilities, and again, it just adds fuel to the "it's not that big of a deal for me" attitude that many have.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 28, 2020, 07:47:10 AM

I don't think you are factoring that when the flu season comes we don't isolate, social distance and wear masks.  The reason why the Covid #'s are  lower is because we did do these things.  If not, I can imagine the #'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 28, 2020, 07:50:22 AM

In Italy a 18 years old healthy kid had both his lungs "burned" by the virus, making him unable to breathe in few days. He luckily got a transplant and received a first-of-its-kind operation for Europe.

This ties along in the people not really getting the dangers of the virus. It doesn't happen to them, it doesn't happen to people they know, they don't really get how dangerous it is.

Just like we're all gonna die but nobody thinks seriously and all the time about the absolute certain fact that their body will grow old and frail and that one day they will die, nobody really stops to think "Could I be recovered for 15 days in an Intensive Care unit and have issues with how my lungs will work for the rest of my life"? no, they don't. *I* am fully accepting the risks and dangers posed by the virus, I'm not anxious at all to go back to visit bars and take trips, and I haven't spent a single moment imaging myself getting sick, the ambulance coming, seeing doctors fully dressed in anti-contagion suits in my own home, and spending two weeks laying face down in an hospital wondering if any breath will be my last. I bet you many haven't either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 27, 2020, 02:29:16 PM

The biggest difference I see is that a seat belt protects you.  Statistics show unequivocably that your chances of surviving an accident are higher if you're wearing a seat belt.

The primary purpose of a face mask is to protect others.  It isn't actually very effective at filtering what you breathe in, but even the most basic mask, even just a hanky over your mouth, helps prevent you from spraying germs around when you talk.

People are more likely to do something if it helps them, than to do something which primarily helps others, especially if there's personal inconvenience involved.

You're absolutely right Orbert.  I'd like to put a crazy libertarian twist on this though.

I don't believe governments should create legislation to prevent people from being stupid.  Like seat belts.  It is up to the individual to protect their own life and not the responsibility of the government.  The government should protect the homeland from foreign invaders and to prosecute murderers and such.  So wearing a seat belt should not be a law.  However, if an individual cares about his own life, then they will realize that seat belts are put in vehicles for a reason and wear one.

Masks are a little more complicated.  I would hope that our society doesn't end up viewing the act of breathing as an assalt with a deadly weapon.  Infectous diseases exist and pandemics have existed in the past and we can reasonably assume they will again in the future.  Because of this, I don't think it is right that government should mandate you wear a certain article of clothing, however, I don't mind if businesses do.  And I also don't mind if people mandate the wearing of masks in their own homes when visitors come.

And I'm going to push back a little on the masks are there to protect others idea.  Although I do think there is some truth to that, I think it is more along the lines of the seat belt arguement.  I think the mask does a better job protecting the wearer than it does protecting others from the wearer.

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

We see this now that lockdowns are lifting.  If the lockdowns had never happened in the first place, I don't think we would now see crowded beaches, restaurants and protests.  But instead we would see people wearing masks more and social distancing while going about their regular lives.  People will always desire to fight back the heavy hand of government, but personal choice is carried with pride and honor.

And just as an aside, I always wear a seat belt, and I always wear a mask and social distance when I visit any establishment or other public enclosed space.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 28, 2020, 07:53:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 08:06:18 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 28, 2020, 07:53:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 28, 2020, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 08:06:18 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 28, 2020, 07:53:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I can't speak for all facilities, but the place that's working on my leg handles a ridiculous number of elderly patients. They changed their policies to great reduce the traffic in their building. The delay is due to having to restructure the schedule with the new safety measures in place. Patients with higher priorities are placed higher up the list.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 08:21:05 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 08:06:18 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 28, 2020, 07:53:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 28, 2020, 08:29:43 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 27, 2020, 02:29:16 PM

The biggest difference I see is that a seat belt protects you.  Statistics show unequivocably that your chances of surviving an accident are higher if you're wearing a seat belt.

The primary purpose of a face mask is to protect others.  It isn't actually very effective at filtering what you breathe in, but even the most basic mask, even just a hanky over your mouth, helps prevent you from spraying germs around when you talk.

People are more likely to do something if it helps them, than to do something which primarily helps others, especially if there's personal inconvenience involved.

You're absolutely right Orbert.  I'd like to put a crazy libertarian twist on this though.

I don't believe governments should create legislation to prevent people from being stupid.  Like seat belts.  It is up to the individual to protect their own life and not the responsibility of the government.  The government should protect the homeland from foreign invaders and to prosecute murderers and such.  So wearing a seat belt should not be a law.  However, if an individual cares about his own life, then they will realize that seat belts are put in vehicles for a reason and wear one.

Masks are a little more complicated.  I would hope that our society doesn't end up viewing the act of breathing as an assalt with a deadly weapon.  Infectous diseases exist and pandemics have existed in the past and we can reasonably assume they will again in the future.  Because of this, I don't think it is right that government should mandate you wear a certain article of clothing, however, I don't mind if businesses do.  And I also don't mind if people mandate the wearing of masks in their own homes when visitors come.

And I'm going to push back a little on the masks are there to protect others idea.  Although I do think there is some truth to that, I think it is more along the lines of the seat belt arguement.  I think the mask does a better job protecting the wearer than it does protecting others from the wearer.

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

We see this now that lockdowns are lifting.  If the lockdowns had never happened in the first place, I don't think we would now see crowded beaches, restaurants and protests.  But instead we would see people wearing masks more and social distancing while going about their regular lives.  People will always desire to fight back the heavy hand of government, but personal choice is carried with pride and honor.

And just as an aside, I always wear a seat belt, and I always wear a mask and social distance when I visit any establishment or other public enclosed space.

This is demonstrably untrue, though.  https://health.clevelandclinic.org/heres-how-wearing-a-cloth-mask-helps-fight-the-spread-of-coronavirus/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on May 28, 2020, 08:35:01 AM

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 28, 2020, 08:41:02 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 28, 2020, 08:35:01 AM

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

+1, well said.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2020, 08:45:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:05:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 01:28:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 27, 2020, 01:02:38 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 27, 2020, 12:17:17 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 27, 2020, 11:13:46 AM

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

I don't wear a mask when I'm not required to. For me it mostly boils down to I don't want to, but there are some other less rational reasons that it's not worth getting into. It has -1000% to do with Trump for me.

Ignoring the obvious question (why don't you want to), I'll ask a different one, and I'm 100% serious - do you wear a seatbelt when driving?  If so, what fundamental difference is there between seatbelts and masks that cause you be ok with the use one, but not the other?

Those aren't really even close to the same thing, but I'll play along. I don't find seat belts uncomfortable and they don't cover my face in an annoying way. And there aren't easy alternatives to seat belts that offer basically the same protections. In the case of masks: I don't go out much, I stay away from crowded areas, and I don't get close to people when I am out. Same benefits without the annoying side effects.

I appreciate the response (and those from others), and I guess all I can say is 'to each their own'.  I do think they are very close from a perspective of being a tool/instrument to reduce risk of injury or health impact in certain situations.  Is it a perfect comparison, no.  But while neither a mask or seatbelt protect 100%, they can significantly reduce risk against what they are designed to protect against.  By no means am I advocating that the instant anyone steps outside their house, they need to wear a mask.  When in public situations where 6 ft distancing is not feasible, those are the situations that warrant it.  Similar to a seatbelt, when you're in a car, you wear a seatbelt.  Do you need one on a bike, a boat, a golf cart ... not necessary.

That's just my perspective.

I guess the mild discomfort and any 'annoyance' I experience from wearing one (the ones I have get very uncomfortable around my ears after any prolonged usage), is worth it if I'm reducing the possibility of someone having to experience the discomfort of a tube stuck down their throat.  Yes, I'm being rather hyperbolic, but I just see it as a means of doing my part.

As I said, to each their own.

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

100,000 dead is overblown?  I mean, if taking steps to improve public heath is "buying into fear"... well, I have no response to that.  Did you refuse to 'buy into the fear' of flying after 9/11 when a mere 5000-ish were killed from terrorists in planes?  Where was the outrage at airport security measures?  I'm sorry, I just don't get these perspectives.

But, to each their own.

I'm not really arguing with you, just using your post to point a few things out:
- some people (me, included, to an extent) WERE opposed to the "buy in to fear" after 9/11.  I still, to this day, believe that a good number of the safety protocols implemented post-9/11 were meant more to assuage passenger fears - so they fly - than to actually stop terrorists.  I made the observation/comment/joke then and I'll make it now: once the TSA instituted a 3.1 oz limit on fluids Osama bin Laden put 15 virgins into a cave with 3.0 oz. of fluid and said "Figure it out", like Ken Mattingly/Gary Sinise in Apollo 13 (and yes, I know there was physics and science behind that number and so it wasn't that easy; it was a point, though, that the offense has the advantage in these situations).

- I think there ought to be more respect as to the "100,000 dead" number.  I get it, some people are really and truly of the "even one is far too many!" camp, and I respect that, but it's not me.   People die, unfortunately, and not every single death is directly attributable to some monster that needs to be held accountable.   Heart disease, Cancer, Accidents (unintentional injuries), Chronic lower respiratory diseases, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases), and Alzheimer’s disease all cause more deaths PER YEAR than this.   I don't see a ton of people up in arms about the $4 BILLION diet soda industry (https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/diet-soft-drinks-market); I don't see the "Trump crowd" (I don't agree but go with the flow) screaming about their rights, and I don't see the libtards (making a point) pointing their finger at Atlanta (headquarters for Coke).   Chronic repiratory disease; COPD is caused by irritants in the lungs.  For various reasons, marijuana smoking can increase the levels of irritants in the lungs by up to four times (https://www.healthline.com/health/copd/marijuana-copd-link#research-limitations).  There's an entire thread here CELEBRATING the legalization of weed (rightfully, so, in my opinion, but still).  Heart disease?   Depending on your stat source, something like 80 million Americans are obese, and another almost 100 million are overweight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States).    This is as many as 400,000 deaths a year (and GROWING), as well as an over $100 BILLION cost to our society/economy (another reason why comparing to Sweden ain't such a great move, Bern.)

Humans are notoriously bad at comparing and evaluating risk, especially when the competing risks are acute vs. chronic.   I'm doing my part because I don't want to get sick, and I feel I have an obligation to be a good citizen.   The rest is sort of subjective, and ought to be considered in that light. 

Please don't respond with "it's 8 weeks", "it's OTHER people", etc.; I understand that, and those all pose their own specific concerns.  I'm responding to the notion of "100,000" as this huge, unfathomable number, or something we should be in awe over due to it's magnitude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2020, 08:56:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I've got it at like seven or so, annually (see my above post).   Sure, that number is going to grow, but... are you looking at a forecast?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on May 28, 2020, 08:58:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 08:41:02 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 28, 2020, 08:35:01 AM

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

+1, well said.

+2

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2020, 09:09:01 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 07:51:22 AM

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

I wish we talked about this more often.  It's such a HUGE factor in the divisiveness in our country.  I know for me, the SECOND someone says I'm "stupid", my instant response is "fuck you running" and everything else is white noise, unless and until I get my ego in check and realize there might be information there I need.   So the memes, the quippy tweets, the constant singling out and isolating, to me it's a critical part of all this, and why I'm so adamant about not falling into tropes like "the Trump crowd" (even if there are elements of truth in it).   

I find it odd that some (not talking about anyone here; mainly talking about social media) are so ready to yell at the people in the videos for "not doing their part" when in so doing they themselves are fertilizing the garden in which that behavior grows to begin with.  Maybe THEY should start doing their part as well, no?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 28, 2020, 09:19:12 AM

Back to work today, really looking forward to wearing a mask in a hot kitchen.  :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 28, 2020, 09:20:11 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 08:21:05 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 08:06:18 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 28, 2020, 07:53:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

How do you propose that works?

In our country we have transported patients to other hospitals and even to Germany to ensure the burden was spread out. Nonetheless, it was a massive crisis for our entire healthcare system. The hospital I work at most certainly shifted it's personnel to other activities to handle the crisis, whenever possible, but it was a crisis nonetheless. It is not necessarily easy to simply pull all the doctors/nurses from location X and put them on Y. There are plenty of other bottlenecks (space, materials, infrastructure).

I am not familiar with US-healthcare, but as for laid off personell, hospitals have a lot of (very) different fields of expertise and some of those have likely been put to a halt as well. If anything, it is a lack of rules and regulations that allows institutions to lay off people so soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2020, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2020, 09:19:12 AM

Back to work today, really looking forward to wearing a mask in a hot kitchen.  :\

Glad you're working though (and that's not a comment on your mask point; it's sincere, since I recall you being on the fence with work.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 28, 2020, 09:30:59 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 08:21:05 AM

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

Respectfully though - you are forgetting an important factor (I think).  There was a massive shortage of PPE when non-emergent care was halted.  It was so bad that in many areas, PPE were requested from vets, construction, cosmetics and beauticians.  Heck in our area, people were asked to check their garages and attics for extra PPE they could donate.  There was no way to prepare for the influx of covid patients and continue non-urgent procedures while keeping staff safe from contracting the disease.  Hospitals were not prepared.  They could not have safely managed it even if they had full say how it went down.

That said, I am concerned about people who had to then, and continue to now, put off seeking care out of fear of contracting covid in hospitals.  People who didn't get their mammograms and colonoscopies and skin cancer screenings.  And didn't get that stent placed or get that sleep study done.  Some of these people got much more gravely ill putting these things off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 09:41:54 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 28, 2020, 08:29:43 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 27, 2020, 02:29:16 PM

The biggest difference I see is that a seat belt protects you.  Statistics show unequivocably that your chances of surviving an accident are higher if you're wearing a seat belt.

The primary purpose of a face mask is to protect others.  It isn't actually very effective at filtering what you breathe in, but even the most basic mask, even just a hanky over your mouth, helps prevent you from spraying germs around when you talk.

People are more likely to do something if it helps them, than to do something which primarily helps others, especially if there's personal inconvenience involved.

You're absolutely right Orbert.  I'd like to put a crazy libertarian twist on this though.

I don't believe governments should create legislation to prevent people from being stupid.  Like seat belts.  It is up to the individual to protect their own life and not the responsibility of the government.  The government should protect the homeland from foreign invaders and to prosecute murderers and such.  So wearing a seat belt should not be a law.  However, if an individual cares about his own life, then they will realize that seat belts are put in vehicles for a reason and wear one.

Masks are a little more complicated.  I would hope that our society doesn't end up viewing the act of breathing as an assalt with a deadly weapon.  Infectous diseases exist and pandemics have existed in the past and we can reasonably assume they will again in the future.  Because of this, I don't think it is right that government should mandate you wear a certain article of clothing, however, I don't mind if businesses do.  And I also don't mind if people mandate the wearing of masks in their own homes when visitors come.

And I'm going to push back a little on the masks are there to protect others idea.  Although I do think there is some truth to that, I think it is more along the lines of the seat belt arguement.  I think the mask does a better job protecting the wearer than it does protecting others from the wearer.

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

We see this now that lockdowns are lifting.  If the lockdowns had never happened in the first place, I don't think we would now see crowded beaches, restaurants and protests.  But instead we would see people wearing masks more and social distancing while going about their regular lives.  People will always desire to fight back the heavy hand of government, but personal choice is carried with pride and honor.

And just as an aside, I always wear a seat belt, and I always wear a mask and social distance when I visit any establishment or other public enclosed space.

This is demonstrably untrue, though.  https://health.clevelandclinic.org/heres-how-wearing-a-cloth-mask-helps-fight-the-spread-of-coronavirus/

Well, the CDC has gone back and forth on the mask issue, including recently.  Also, the doctor in the article, although certainly well informed and as up to date on current findings as he can be, admits that ,with the coronavirus, he is making an assumption.  I don't fault him for it, and I'm not saying he's wrong and I'm right.  My point is, that we really don't know for sure.  But either way, I still stand by the paragraph I wrote prior to the one you pointed out.

I love science, and I love watching it's progress and I love all the great stuff humanity has discovered through it.  But, I do take scientific studies with a grain of salt for this reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q

No matter how good the study is, there will always be the element of human error, as with everything else in life.  Again, I'm not saying the doctor in the article is wrong, but I do believe the info in this video should be considered as well when talking on the subject.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 09:54:30 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 28, 2020, 09:20:11 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 08:21:05 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 08:06:18 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 28, 2020, 07:53:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

How do you propose that works?

In our country we have transported patients to other hospitals and even to Germany to ensure the burden was spread out. Nonetheless, it was a massive crisis for our entire healthcare system. The hospital I work at most certainly shifted it's personnel to other activities to handle the crisis, whenever possible, but it was a crisis nonetheless. It is not necessarily easy to simply pull all the doctors/nurses from location X and put them on Y. There are plenty of other bottlenecks (space, materials, infrastructure).

I am not familiar with US-healthcare, but as for laid off personell, hospitals have a lot of (very) different fields of expertise and some of those have likely been put to a halt as well. If anything, it is a lack of rules and regulations that allows institutions to lay off people so soon.

That is a valid point.  I think the largest difference is the size of the US.  Because of that, Covid-19 hit some areas of our country far harder than others, however healthcare facilities were basically shutdown all accross our nation regardless of how severe Covid-19 was.  Thus, many healthcare professionals were basically put out of a job where Covid-19 wasn't severe.

And I'm not saying this without merit.  I have a brother who is a doctor and a sister-in-law who is a nurse and they have been informing the rest of the family about the circumstances they see in their areas of work.  Plus it has also been in the news over here in my country. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 28, 2020, 10:04:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2020, 09:19:12 AM

Back to work today, really looking forward to wearing a mask in a hot kitchen.  :\

Glad you're back to working, bud, although that has to be hell. I put off wearing face masks here at the shop for years because I couldn't be bothered to put them on (and I was young and stupid) but over the past few months I've been wearing them more and more as I go out into the shop breathing a lot of body dust. And now that the temperature outside is beginning to crank up, it makes it that much more unbearable and sweaty. Can only imagine what it's like with all the steam and heat in there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 28, 2020, 10:10:24 AM

Received a sigh of relief today when I logged in to the State unemployment website and saw they've sent out my first unemployment check. Such a weird feeling. I've been working since I got my work permit at 15 1/2 years old......I know there are a lot of ways this pandemic has affected people....but for me, it's humbled me big time. Setting the ego aside and accepting government assistance is something i never thought I'd have to do. But hey.....I've paid in to it for 29 years, might as well utilize it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 28, 2020, 10:17:13 AM

I have a similar mental block about using benefits like that.  But this is truly what it is meant for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 28, 2020, 10:22:37 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 28, 2020, 10:10:24 AM

Received a sigh of relief today when I logged in to the State unemployment website and saw they've sent out my first unemployment check. Such a weird feeling. I've been working since I got my work permit at 15 1/2 years old......I know there are a lot of ways this pandemic has affected people....but for me, it's humbled me big time. Setting the ego aside and accepting government assistance is something i never thought I'd have to do. But hey.....I've paid in to it for 29 years, might as well utilize it.

The whole point of those programs to to help citizens in time of need. You've helped other people out for decades. No shame in accepting that same help, especially for something like this. I just think of it as insurance in a way. The taxes paid are like an insurance premium, and now because of one thing or another, you have to make a claim. No biggie.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 28, 2020, 10:26:09 AM

I hope people who had their jobs shut down by state orders don't consider unemployment as mere government assistance. Their livelihoods were stripped away, rightly or wrongly, and often arbitrarily, through no fualt of their own.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 10:30:12 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 28, 2020, 10:10:24 AM

Received a sigh of relief today when I logged in to the State unemployment website and saw they've sent out my first unemployment check. Such a weird feeling. I've been working since I got my work permit at 15 1/2 years old......I know there are a lot of ways this pandemic has affected people....but for me, it's humbled me big time. Setting the ego aside and accepting government assistance is something i never thought I'd have to do. But hey.....I've paid in to it for 29 years, might as well utilize it.

I'm so happy for you man!  That's got to take a lot of stress out of your life right now. (or at least it will once the checks begin being deposited in your account).  Having been unemployed myself as an adult, I know it's not fun and can be really scary.

I know I say this a lot, but I've been praying for you as well as everyone else I know of here on the forum who has been layed off, furloughed, or otherwise had hours and pay reduced during this very diffucult time.

All of you have been so very awesome and have accepted me dispite my querks.  I wish everyone well who has been suffering in any way right now.  You're a good bunch of folks!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 10:57:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2020, 08:56:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 07:23:38 AM

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I've got it at like seven or so, annually (see my above post).   Sure, that number is going to grow, but... are you looking at a forecast?

I went by this CDC website (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm).  Current number 3 is about 170k/year for "accidents".  At the published total (rounding to 100k) in 3 months (first US death was late Feb iirc?), that would put the annual total comfortably at #3.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 10:58:29 AM

Quote from: Lethean on May 28, 2020, 08:58:20 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 08:41:02 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on May 28, 2020, 08:35:01 AM

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

+1, well said.

+2

+3

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 28, 2020, 11:04:49 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 28, 2020, 10:22:37 AM

The whole point of those programs to to help citizens in time of need. You've helped other people out for decades. No shame in accepting that same help, especially for something like this. I just think of it as insurance in a way. The taxes paid are like an insurance premium, and now because of one thing or another, you have to make a claim. No biggie.

Yep. Totally understand. Like Bosk mentioned......it's a 'mental' thing. I've always taken pride in not ever having to borrow money from any family members or use any type of assistance at all. I've always had a job and made the money I needed to make to have what I have. Not working and accepting money is just a weird feeling. I 'get' I'm just utilizing the programs in place.....it's just weird.

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 28, 2020, 10:30:12 AM

I'm so happy for you man!  That's got to take a lot of stress out of your life right now. (or at least it will once the checks begin being deposited in your account).  Having been unemployed myself as an adult, I know it's not fun and can be really scary.

I know I say this a lot, but I've been praying for you as well as everyone else I know of here on the forum who has been layed off, furloughed, or otherwise had hours and pay reduced during this very diffucult time.

All of you have been so very awesome and have accepted me dispite my querks.  I wish everyone well who has been suffering in any way right now.  You're a good bunch of folks!

 :tup  Thank you!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2020, 11:10:59 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2020, 07:47:10 AM

I don't think you are factoring that when the flu season comes we don't isolate, social distance and wear masks.  The reason why the Covid #'s are  lower is because we did do these things.  If not, I can imagine the #'.

This is a good point that I didn't want to go unacknowledged.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 28, 2020, 01:11:02 PM

I just talked to a lady who's been in self-quarantine since February 17th in our little town. Holy crap. She's only gone outside once a week since then.  :eek

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2020, 01:12:38 PM

My wife's cousin lives in tiny Mount Airy, NC (our old stomping grounds).

A couple of weeks ago, her husband was diagnosed with COVID 19.  He basically felt like total crap for a little while, but quarantined at home and eventually got through it.

Meanshile, their daughter also contracted it.  Similarly, she rode it out.

However, the 91 year old grandmother, who also lived in the household, also got it.  She was eventually hospitalized and placed on a ventilator.  The decision was made to take her off the vent on Monday this week, and she passed away (a DNR was in place).  Apart from COVID, she had no other health issues before, other than being 91.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 28, 2020, 01:21:49 PM

To continue to make things more 'real'... a former colleague and employee of mine lost her brother early in the outbreak.  50 years old, 4 kids under the age of 18.  No underlying health issues.  10 days from his first symptoms to passing away. 
The thought was that he contracted it as a result of a business trip to California. 

That shit is just way too close to "it could've been me".

So yeah, I'm doing everything within my control to slow/stop the spread.  Masks and gloves when I'm out in public situations is not a high price to pay.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 28, 2020, 01:35:09 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 01:11:02 PM

I just talked to a lady who's been in self-quarantine since February 17th in our little town. Holy crap. She's only gone outside once a week since then.  :eek

Outside literally as in 'never left the confines of the house, didn't see sunlight, not even to check the mailbox" or "didn't leave the property, but still went outside to water the plants, etc..."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 28, 2020, 01:37:20 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 28, 2020, 01:35:09 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 01:11:02 PM

I just talked to a lady who's been in self-quarantine since February 17th in our little town. Holy crap. She's only gone outside once a week since then.  :eek

Outside literally as in 'never left the confines of the house, didn't see sunlight, not even to check the mailbox" or "didn't leave the property, but still went outside to water the plants, etc..."

Outside as in literally did not leave the house other than to go to the drive-thru pharmacy at Walgreens. How much of that is truth, I'm not sure, but as shaken as she sounded, I believed her  :lol But that got me thinking about the average air quality inside any given home, and the lack of being outside and what that does to your immune system; I imagine much like your cardiovascular system, if you don't exercise it, it gets weaker, and staying indoors like that cannot do any good for your immune system, or your respiratory system if your home air quality isn't great.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 28, 2020, 02:00:10 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 01:37:20 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 28, 2020, 01:35:09 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 01:11:02 PM

I just talked to a lady who's been in self-quarantine since February 17th in our little town. Holy crap. She's only gone outside once a week since then.  :eek

Outside literally as in 'never left the confines of the house, didn't see sunlight, not even to check the mailbox" or "didn't leave the property, but still went outside to water the plants, etc..."

Outside as in literally did not leave the house other than to go to the drive-thru pharmacy at Walgreens. How much of that is truth, I'm not sure, but as shaken as she sounded, I believed her  :lol But that got me thinking about the average air quality inside any given home, and the lack of being outside and what that does to your immune system; I imagine much like your cardiovascular system, if you don't exercise it, it gets weaker, and staying indoors like that cannot do any good for your immune system, or your respiratory system if your home air quality isn't great.

I have no idea if it's true, but I read that UV light could kill covid and one extra feature I had added to my home AC unit was a UV light because as someone who sits home a lot, my thought was to have the cleanest air possible.  When I read that article a couple weeks ago I went and checked... and the bulb was dead and I finally just replaced it this week, also replaced my filter.  I'd guess if you keep up with the basic maintenance, home air should be fine. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 28, 2020, 02:26:21 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 28, 2020, 02:00:10 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 01:37:20 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 28, 2020, 01:35:09 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 28, 2020, 01:11:02 PM

I just talked to a lady who's been in self-quarantine since February 17th in our little town. Holy crap. She's only gone outside once a week since then.  :eek

Outside literally as in 'never left the confines of the house, didn't see sunlight, not even to check the mailbox" or "didn't leave the property, but still went outside to water the plants, etc..."

Outside as in literally did not leave the house other than to go to the drive-thru pharmacy at Walgreens. How much of that is truth, I'm not sure, but as shaken as she sounded, I believed her  :lol But that got me thinking about the average air quality inside any given home, and the lack of being outside and what that does to your immune system; I imagine much like your cardiovascular system, if you don't exercise it, it gets weaker, and staying indoors like that cannot do any good for your immune system, or your respiratory system if your home air quality isn't great.

I have no idea if it's true, but I read that UV light could kill covid and one extra feature I had added to my home AC unit was a UV light because as someone who sits home a lot, my thought was to have the cleanest air possible.  When I read that article a couple weeks ago I went and checked... and the bulb was dead and I finally just replaced it this week, also replaced my filter.  I'd guess if you keep up with the basic maintenance, home air should be fine.

In my short time working in HVAC, I learned a lot about UV lights. They definitely work and are great to have in your furnace/AC.. My company charged CRAZY prices for them though. I felt bad every time I sold one. But after seeing so many filthy, disgusting coils in a lot of homes that didn't have them or had dogs etc., I think about it whenever I step into someone's home. I feel cursed now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 28, 2020, 02:30:19 PM

I feel it was only a couple hundred on top of the thousands I was spending already so it didn't seem like much, but I remember the tech who installed it told me, dont call us to replace the bulb.  Go order one yourself and you'll save a lot.  The bulb was like 120 bucks so not cheap, but I'm guessing I'd pay that plus the hourly rate to do a simple job.  I'm glad you say it works though because part of me was wondering if it was worth it or not.  I also have a cat, so another reason to keep shit clean cause that fur gets everywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 28, 2020, 03:13:43 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 28, 2020, 02:30:19 PM

I feel it was only a couple hundred on top of the thousands I was spending already so it didn't seem like much, but I remember the tech who installed it told me, dont call us to replace the bulb.  Go order one yourself and you'll save a lot.  The bulb was like 120 bucks so not cheap, but I'm guessing I'd pay that plus the hourly rate to do a simple job.  I'm glad you say it works though because part of me was wondering if it was worth it or not.  I also have a cat, so another reason to keep shit clean cause that fur gets everywhere.

Haha holy shit. We charged $600 for one bulb and $1100 for a double. You'd get commission on selling bulbs so we wouldn't always suggest they buy them, unless the customer was cool or something. Same with filters, although most people already knew to go online instead of paying our outrageous mark-ups. A big reason I got out was being pushed to sell so much overpriced crap to people by our manager. And yeah, with a pet, that UV light will help even more. Good on ya.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 28, 2020, 03:34:20 PM

oh damn, I feel even better about doing that swap myself then  :lol nice to know this stuff works though (maybe not in killing covid, but in general cleanliness)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 28, 2020, 03:36:57 PM

You ever see those Steripens and other devices? They clean water using UV lights, campers and hikers etc. use them. Very cool technology.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 28, 2020, 03:37:47 PM

Nope, not familiar

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 28, 2020, 03:46:24 PM

VERY familiar.  They are pretty cool (although the problem with them on backpacking trips is they use a lot of power, so you burn battery life pretty quickly).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 28, 2020, 04:00:00 PM

Uv light is well known to kill microorganisms so surfaces outside are unlikely to be contaminated for long. Add to that the CDC saying that you're pretty unlikely to catch it from a surface in the first place and outside is pretty safe if you stay away from close contact with others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 28, 2020, 04:06:22 PM

At most professional labs UV-light is used to decontaminate all kinds of stuff and in general it is most definitely effective and scientifically validated. With the obvious pitfall that it is somewhat of a line of sight type of method (but reflection does take place).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 28, 2020, 04:09:11 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on May 28, 2020, 04:06:22 PM

At most professional labs UV-light is used to decontaminate all kinds of stuff and in general it is most definitely effective and scientifically validated. With the obvious pitfall that it is somewhat of a line of sight type of method (but reflection does take place).

Nice, for me, when I purchased that, and similar to what Katt was saying from his experience, I felt it might have been a sales tactic which made me question it's effectiveness.  I really hadn't thought much about it over the years since its been installed until I read UV light was a good defense of covid and it prompted me to check it.  Makes me feel better about my home air after reading all these responses today and that I fixed it for a good price.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on May 28, 2020, 06:41:36 PM

Quote from: mike099 on May 28, 2020, 07:15:21 AM

How is it wearing a mask all day? We are supposed to return to work June 16th and questions, fever checks and masks are mandatory.  I can barely wear a mask thru a shopping trip, so we will see how this works and how many people actually wear them all day.

Not great when it's hot (it was 95+ on Tuesday, fortunately cooling down through the week). My condolences to lonestar heading back into the hot kitchen.

Most are always wearing a mask/bandana or other cloth barrier. Try a few if you can and see which one has breathability you can tolerate while still being effective. And occasionally popping your nose out for some of that sweet O2 (silica dust never smelled so sweet!) is tolerated given the physical nature of the job.

I would say the cloth masks are more comfortable than the standard dust mask or N95, but you still can't avoid breathing in your own breath. I recommend cough drops/gum/mints and consistent dental hygiene. After 3 days, it's not great, but I can live with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 29, 2020, 06:31:48 AM

CDC pivots yet again late this week and says surface spread might be an issue. WHO new guidance: healthy people should only wear masks when taking care of Covid patients. Holy confusion Batman.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 29, 2020, 06:33:39 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 29, 2020, 06:31:48 AM

CDC pivots yet again late this week and says surface spread might be an issue. WHO new guidance: healthy people should only wear masks when taking care of Covid patients. Holy confusion Batman.

Again, bud, you really need to give us a link. Especially for that last bit. I haven't seen that, but I'd love to read more about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 29, 2020, 06:39:43 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 29, 2020, 06:33:39 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 29, 2020, 06:31:48 AM

CDC pivots yet again late this week and says surface spread might be an issue. WHO new guidance: healthy people should only wear masks when taking care of Covid patients. Holy confusion Batman.

Again, bud, you really need to give us a link. Especially for that last bit. I haven't seen that, but I'd love to read more about it.

This, please

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 29, 2020, 06:45:51 AM

So there is this dude named Brian Lee Hitchens. He's deep into conspiracy stuff, the virus doesn't exist, it's a worldwide conspiracy tied with 5G blah blah blah.

He got the virus. D'uh. Who would have imagined that someone who didn't believe in the virus and didn't protect himself could have gotten it. He was recovered in intensive care, and having learnt the lesson the hard way, he posted on social media to actually beware the virus, that it's real and it's not to be underestimated.

The result? plenty of death threats from his ex co-believers in conspiracies.

Welcome to the fanatism of the 21th century, we no longer have religious fanatics (at least in the Western world, they're reduced to a tiny minority who has no real sway on politics), but they've been replaced by conspiracies. We went from "my god is the only one who exists and if you deny it you're an infidel" to "I know the secret truth and those who explain why it's all bullshit are part of the conspiracy, only *I* know the real truth".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 29, 2020, 06:55:13 AM

Quote from: Kutie lix on May 29, 2020, 06:39:43 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 29, 2020, 06:33:39 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 29, 2020, 06:31:48 AM

CDC pivots yet again late this week and says surface spread might be an issue. WHO new guidance: healthy people should only wear masks when taking care of Covid patients. Holy confusion Batman.

Again, bud, you really need to give us a link. Especially for that last bit. I haven't seen that, but I'd love to read more about it.

This, please

Did my own research. Yes, they say what Emtee said, but that's kind of missing the point. If you're out in public, you have no idea who is sick an who isn't. So they're not saying wear a mask ONLY around people you know are sick, but that if you're healthy and you know the other people are healthy, masks aren't necessary. But when you're surrounded by dozens or more strangers, any of them could be sick...........so wear a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 29, 2020, 07:00:33 AM

Has anyone else seen this?

https://www.wpbf.com/article/rossen-reports-new-phone-related-technology-shows-how-coronavirus-can-spread-due-to-partygoers/32702717

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 29, 2020, 07:08:42 AM

You won't see links from me. Sorry. The stories are easy to find. Too many viruses over the years due to links. I don't paste them or click on them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 29, 2020, 07:11:19 AM

 :huh:  You can't get a virus from pasting a link. Are you saying you don't go to the pages where these stories are? If they're legitimate news sites there should be no risk of viruses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 29, 2020, 07:15:55 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 29, 2020, 07:08:42 AM

You won't see links from me. Sorry. The stories are easy to find. Too many viruses over the years due to links. I don't paste them or click on them.

Dude, if you visited the page already, then it's game over. Simply copying and pasting the link will not give you a virus  :rollin I learned a very simple rule back in third grade or whatever when we learned how to write rudimentary papers; if you have a source, reference it. You haven't even named where you read the info, you could at least do that to benefit the rest of us, my dude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 29, 2020, 06:45:51 AM

So there is this dude named Brian Lee Hitchens. He's deep into conspiracy stuff, the virus doesn't exist, it's a worldwide conspiracy tied with 5G blah blah blah.

He got the virus. D'uh. Who would have imagined that someone who didn't believe in the virus and didn't protect himself could have gotten it. He was recovered in intensive care, and having learnt the lesson the hard way, he posted on social media to actually beware the virus, that it's real and it's not to be underestimated.

The result? plenty of death threats from his ex co-believers in conspiracies.

Welcome to the fanatism of the 21th century, we no longer have religious fanatics (at least in the Western world, they're reduced to a tiny minority who has no real sway on politics), but they've been replaced by conspiracies. We went from "my god is the only one who exists and if you deny it you're an infidel" to "I know the secret truth and those who explain why it's all bullshit are part of the conspiracy, only *I* know the real truth".

Haha dumbass...

Honestly, It's why you have to research. These people are the ones that just believe whatever is told to them.

I believe 5G is harmful, yet it's not the cause the virus. I don't believe it's a hoax, but do believe it wasn't released by accident. See the differences there...

Because I believe TPTB are insidious, nefarious people. The virus is real.

I forgot, those people sending him death threats are just as bad as him, believing what he's told. They're upset because their Savior of truth lied to them, it's all on them though for not thinking for themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 07:19:23 AM

Anyways. I HAD to get tested. Will know my results either today or tomorrow (If the testing place is open on weekends).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 07:26:48 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 29, 2020, 07:00:33 AM

Has anyone else seen this?

https://www.wpbf.com/article/rossen-reports-new-phone-related-technology-shows-how-coronavirus-can-spread-due-to-partygoers/32702717

Well duh...

Alcohol makes you lose control of yourself. Your body takes control of itself, it's why they call them Spirits. You tend to act on natural actions, sex, violence, and emotions. You'll share things, a drink, smoke, kissing. So it's inevitable they spread things. It's how STDs can transmit from the whore no one knew was one, that every guy had their way with that night.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 07:28:23 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on May 29, 2020, 07:15:55 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 29, 2020, 07:08:42 AM

You won't see links from me. Sorry. The stories are easy to find. Too many viruses over the years due to links. I don't paste them or click on them.

Dude, if you visited the page already, then it's game over. Simply copying and pasting the link will not give you a virus  :rollin I learned a very simple rule back in third grade or whatever when we learned how to write rudimentary papers; if you have a source, reference it. You haven't even named where you read the info, you could at least do that to benefit the rest of us, my dude.

Yup. It's what makes you credible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 29, 2020, 07:28:46 AM

C'mon guys. Do you actually think I'm a moron? I don't paste links because others may get viruses. I've actually gotten a virus from the weather channel.

I'll simply stick with music chat here. The fangs, the rolling smiley icons and such can be interpreted as trolling. That's fine if It's how you want to interact. It's not my style but I'm cool with it.

Carry on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 29, 2020, 07:37:08 AM

Quote from: emtee on May 29, 2020, 07:28:46 AM

C'mon guys. Do you actually think I'm a moron? I don't paste links because others may get viruses. I've actually gotten a virus from the weather channel.

I'll simply stick with music chat here. The fangs, the rolling smiley icons and such can be interpreted as trolling. That's fine if It's how you want to interact. It's not my style but I'm cool with it.

Carry on.

The explanation you gave was "Too many viruses over the years due to links. I don't paste them or click on them." Nobody called you a moron. However, if you already viewed the site to which that link directs.... then you've already 'clicked' on it yourself. But you are not going to get a virus from a popular website just by reading the page. I highly doubt you got a virus from the Weather Channel. There are a lot of 'false positives' with virus detectors, by the way, especially if you use more than one. They confuse a lot of people. Nobody is trolling you. Relax. Just share the links. It helps everybody.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 29, 2020, 04:44:07 PM

Was curious so I read up on the CDC's apparent pivot regarding surfaces. At my work we had a series of seminars last year that aimed to address the discepancies between scientific/medical news/statements and how they are reported in the media, so I find it interesting to check this stuff out. It is a fairly common issue unfortunately.

The CDC on the matter:

Quote

CDC actively reviews our website to make sure the content is accessible and clear for all types of audiences. As a result of one such review, edits were made to the organization of the COVID-19 transmission page, including adding a headline in an attempt to clarify other types of spread beyond person to person. This change was intended to make it easier to read, and was not a result of any new science.

After media reports appeared that suggested a change in CDC’s view on transmissibility, it became clear that these edits were confusing. Therefore, we have once again edited the page to provide clarity.

The NYT stated this:

Quote

According to cached versions of the website that are available online, this language has remained largely unchanged since at least late March.

The format of the C.D.C. website was slightly altered at least twice this month, but the language about surfaces remained largely the same. On May 11, it appears to have been placed under a new subheading — “The virus does not spread easily in other ways” — and more information about the difficulty of catching the virus from animals was added.

To me it seems the CDC used a poor subheading in their own guidelines (see the waybackmachine link in the NYT article), but overall they do not seem to have changed their actual positition on the matter. The media interpreted that added subheading as a change of position on the matter.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html)
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/22/health/cdc-coronavirus-touching-surfaces.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/22/health/cdc-coronavirus-touching-surfaces.html)


Our version of the CDC has encountered it's fair share of similar issues as well. But most often it is miscommunication happening somewhere along the lines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 05:26:55 PM

Got my results back and I tested negative for the active virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 29, 2020, 05:33:19 PM

Awesome!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jammindude on May 29, 2020, 05:36:10 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 05:26:55 PM

Got my results back and I tested negative for the active virus.

Really happy to hear this!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on May 29, 2020, 05:40:24 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 05:26:55 PM

Got my results back and I tested negative for the active virus.

Good news!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on May 29, 2020, 06:38:33 PM

Yay Ben!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 06:51:47 PM

Hell yeah.

I wasn't worried about it. I wasn't feeling sick at all. It was required of my tribe to get tested. Not many are feeling sick either, I'm praying they come out good as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 31, 2020, 09:05:58 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 07:26:48 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 29, 2020, 07:00:33 AM

Has anyone else seen this?

https://www.wpbf.com/article/rossen-reports-new-phone-related-technology-shows-how-coronavirus-can-spread-due-to-partygoers/32702717

Well duh...

Alcohol makes you lose control of yourself. Your body takes control of itself, it's why they call them Spirits. You tend to act on natural actions, sex, violence, and emotions. You'll share things, a drink, smoke, kissing. So it's inevitable they spread things. It's how STDs can transmit from the whore no one knew was one, that every guy had their way with that night.

OoooooK. Wasn't - quite - expecting THAT!   :\

I was just thinking about the possible spread of the virus from that one event. In fact, it was reported Friday that this one guy had tested positive and he was going to 4 or 5 bars at the Lake that weekend.

Also, I am quite uncomfortable about how that company is tracing all those cell phones without our consent. Does this bug anyone else?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 31, 2020, 09:37:32 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 31, 2020, 09:05:58 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 29, 2020, 07:26:48 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 29, 2020, 07:00:33 AM

Has anyone else seen this?

https://www.wpbf.com/article/rossen-reports-new-phone-related-technology-shows-how-coronavirus-can-spread-due-to-partygoers/32702717

Well duh...

Alcohol makes you lose control of yourself. Your body takes control of itself, it's why they call them Spirits. You tend to act on natural actions, sex, violence, and emotions. You'll share things, a drink, smoke, kissing. So it's inevitable they spread things. It's how STDs can transmit from the whore no one knew was one, that every guy had their way with that night.

OoooooK. Wasn't - quite - expecting THAT!   :\

I was just thinking about the possible spread of the virus from that one event. In fact, it was reported Friday that this one guy had tested positive and he was going to 4 or 5 bars at the Lake that weekend.

Also, I am quite uncomfortable about how that company is tracing all those cell phones without our consent. Does this bug anyone else?

My apologies if that was unexpected, I was kind of agitated that day.

To your question, yes, it bugs me. It's why people are upset their governers are imposing these contact tracing orders.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 31, 2020, 01:15:34 PM

Yes Ben_Jamin - that was certainly unexpected.  :laugh:

But about your comment about contact tracing, it's really a necessity where the Dept. of Health tracts infectious diseases of ALL types from the yearly flu to aids, venereal diseases and yes corona viruses. That way they can track it, who has it and maybe predict where the next outbreak may be. The key to tracing however is reliable tests and if we had tests in Feb. we could have started tracing back then and maybe we could have shut things down sooner and been back opening the nation sooner at the worst or leave things open but have strict testing guidelines.

Either way, I wouldn't worry too much about contact tracing, it's been going on far longer than anyone realizes and no - it's not Big Brother.

What seems to be Big Brother is that one company tracing our cell phones which means that they have personal information that I doubt was authorized for use.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 31, 2020, 02:11:54 PM

btw reading the first few pages of this thread is kind of trippy. Little did we know...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 31, 2020, 02:17:22 PM

Ha I read through the first page a week ago. Definitely an interesting little time capsule.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 31, 2020, 03:11:02 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 31, 2020, 02:11:54 PM

btw reading the first few pages of this thread is kind of trippy. Little did we know...

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 31, 2020, 02:17:22 PM

Ha I read through the first page a week ago. Definitely an interesting little time capsule.

Yeah, it's one of those things I wanted to suggest, to go back and see how it all unfolded... who would have imaged that this would have become the "thread of the year"?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on May 31, 2020, 09:31:08 PM

Hey everyone, I thought I would share some good news. This comes from a right leaning news source, but I figure good news is good news so I hope you all don't mind.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/coronavirus-becoming-much-less-lethal-virus-is-losing-its-potency-top-doctor-reveals

Happy Sunday everyone!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 01, 2020, 07:32:28 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on May 31, 2020, 09:31:08 PM

Hey everyone, I thought I would share some good news. This comes from a right leaning news source, but I figure good news is good news so I hope you all don't mind.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/coronavirus-becoming-much-less-lethal-virus-is-losing-its-potency-top-doctor-reveals

Happy Sunday everyone!

Good news if it's true. Especially if it's true around the world and not just in Italy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 01, 2020, 08:58:26 AM

The virus is losing its potency? That web page was full of click bait making me question the credibility of the website and the story.
I would love to believe that it's true but someone needs (at least for me) to put the science behind statement and more corroboration from other scientists before I will be optimistic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 01, 2020, 09:53:37 AM

That would be good news, if I thought it had any legitimacy.  It seems to me that a true scientific breakthrough would be rippling through the media, not just on one site that claims to have the scoops that other places don't.  As soon as someone tells me "Here's the real truth, that you won't find anywhere else" I immediately assume that they're another conspiracy theory site.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 01, 2020, 09:58:00 AM

Quote from: Orbert on June 01, 2020, 09:53:37 AM

That would be good news, if I thought it had any legitimacy.  It seems to me that a true scientific breakthrough would be rippling through the media, not just on one site that claims to have the scoops that other places don't.  As soon as someone tells me "Here's the real truth, that you won't find anywhere else" I immediately assume that they're another conspiracy theory site.

Sorry Northern Lion........It's impossible to take anything 'the Blaze' seriously. Maybe back when they first came out there was an effort to be somewhat even keel.....but they're now pretty far right with a strong agenda.

As others have mentioned.....if it is indeed true.....then awesome. But until this news starts making waves across the media platforms it has to be taken with a grain of salt

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on June 01, 2020, 10:07:02 AM

What has happened in Italy was a doctor claiming that it's 40 days since, in a clinical sense, they don't see any seriously ill patients, which could mean that the viral intensity of the virus has died down. The state of news being what it is these days, it has been translated into "LOL DOCTOR SAYS THE VIRUS DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE". But what a doctor actually claimed is that the infected people seem to not need anymore urgent recovery in the hospital, or that they're asyntomatic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 01, 2020, 10:27:49 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on June 01, 2020, 10:07:02 AM

What has happened in Italy was a doctor claiming that it's 40 days since, in a clinical sense, they don't see any seriously ill patients, which could mean that the viral intensity of the virus has died down. The state of news being what it is these days, it has been translated into "LOL DOCTOR SAYS THE VIRUS DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE". But what a doctor actually claimed is that the infected people seem to not need anymore urgent recovery in the hospital, or that they're asyntomatic.

I did see another site (the Daily Mail) report the story today as well. But, even in that article there are Dr's claiming BS on the suggestion that it's losing potency. With the way the CDC and WHO flip flop on what is 'true' about covid and what isn't......who knows anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 01, 2020, 11:13:51 AM

Quote from: Orbert on June 01, 2020, 09:53:37 AM

That would be good news, if I thought it had any legitimacy.  It seems to me that a true scientific breakthrough would be rippling through the media, not just on one site that claims to have the scoops that other places don't.  As soon as someone tells me "Here's the real truth, that you won't find anywhere else" I immediately assume that they're another conspiracy theory site.

This.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 01, 2020, 11:40:58 AM

So this is Glenn Beck's network. Sorry - fake news..  :loser:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 01, 2020, 11:43:19 AM

Saw a Reuters article about this today. So it definitely has a "legit" media following. Doesn't necessarily mean it's anything more than this doctor's observations in his little bubble, but it's something promising at least.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 01, 2020, 02:38:52 PM

It's potentially good news at a time when everybody could use some.  I don't blame anyone for wanting to embrace that.  I'm sure Reuters is trying to be really careful right now, yet still try to get the news out somehow.

For right now, I consider it just this one doctor's observations, but if others start seeing similar trends, then it could be something.  Part of the scientific method includes being able to reproduce and document the same results.  Even ignoring for a moment that what he's saying flies in the face of most of what we know about viruses, right now he's one guy who might've recorded some numbers wrong.  But even a single independent corroboration somewhere else, and we could have something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 01, 2020, 03:34:44 PM

Maybe the virus has killed a good chunk of the most vulnerable, and now a greater percentage of those infected are better capable health wise to deal with it, thus lowering the hospital rate?  The virus being less deadly would be nicer, but it seems less logical That the virus changed, and it is more That the victims Characteristics have changed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 01, 2020, 04:02:44 PM

Exactly.  I could be way off base here, as clearly I am not a virologist, and do not have an in-depth knowledge of how these things work.  But my understanding is that it is astronomically unlikely that the virus itself could have changed in any meaningful way.  Part of the scientific method is, well, science.  And I don't know that the science backs what that article suggests.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 01, 2020, 04:06:55 PM

Don't viruses mutate and change all the time? That's why we have different strains of colds and the flu every year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 01, 2020, 04:14:52 PM

If anything, most viruses (that we know about) mutate to make themselves more "potent".  That's just the nature of their relatively simple programming, as far as life forms go, and viruses don't even follow some of the rules which define "life forms".  So who knows?

But I hadn't considered that it's the patient base, not the virus itself, that has changed.  The explanation that most of those people more succeptible have already been hit seems to fit somewhat with earlier reports (from like several weeks ago) saying it could be that more people are asymptomatic or only mildly affected than we realized.  The first wave takes out the most succeptible.  Following waves come, but we don't see as high a level of critical cases because the "weakest" have already been culled.  And there are many that will never show any symptoms at all, due to their personal physiology and DNA.  Herd immunity achieved the hard way, I suppose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 01, 2020, 04:16:10 PM

Responding to Lordixor.....True, but I don’t think (and I could be wrong here) that the virus can mutate that quickly, and to such a degree it can be observed in such a broad way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 01, 2020, 04:28:51 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 01, 2020, 04:06:55 PM

Don't viruses mutate and change all the time? That's why we have different strains of colds and the flu every year.

Well, yes and no.  They do.  But what we are suggesting is not how mutation generally works.  Even if it mutated this quickly to a strain that was less potent, that mutation would not be true of all existing virus particles.  As new particles are formed, they may mutate.  But ALL new particles would not necessarily have the same mutation, and those that do not (in this case, those that have the potency of the original) would not suddenly disappear. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 01, 2020, 06:26:46 PM

Quote from: Orbert on June 01, 2020, 04:14:52 PM

If anything, most viruses (that we know about) mutate to make themselves more "potent".  That's just the nature of their relatively simple programming, as far as life forms go, and viruses don't even follow some of the rules which define "life forms".  So who knows?

Mutations aren't part of the viruses programming. They're just random errors when reproducing. A more contagious strain would likely become more prevalent over time, but more contagious doesn't necessarily mean more deadly.

Quote from: bosk1 on June 01, 2020, 04:28:51 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 01, 2020, 04:06:55 PM

Don't viruses mutate and change all the time? That's why we have different strains of colds and the flu every year.

Well, yes and no.  They do.  But what we are suggesting is not how mutation generally works.  Even if it mutated this quickly to a strain that was less potent, that mutation would not be true of all existing virus particles.  As new particles are formed, they may mutate.  But ALL new particles would not necessarily have the same mutation, and those that do not (in this case, those that have the potency of the original) would not suddenly disappear. 

Which is why the doctor in the article is speaking only about Italy, not the whole world. It's encouraging if it's really the case in Italy, but I'm as skeptical as anyone. I think there are plenty of other reasons why it's seemingly killing fewer people now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on June 01, 2020, 08:00:15 PM

On the financial front here in the States:  my wife got through to the IRS before 8am today regarding our tax return mailed March 13th.  They still do not have us in the system, and they have stacks upon stacks upon stacks of unopened return.  They are working with limited staffing and applying the necessary social distancing.  The woman said that considering the date that it was sent, and that we did not use 'direct deposit', that the refund should be sent some time in the middle of July.

Meanwhile....C19 deaths in the US are above 105,000, positive cases are on the uptick in many states, and South America has been getting ravaged with the onset of their 'winter' and often lax safeguards.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 01, 2020, 08:06:16 PM

Well, guess we can all expect cases to spike after all these protests.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on June 01, 2020, 08:45:31 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 01, 2020, 08:06:16 PM

Well, guess we can all expect cases to spike after all these protests.

I think it's gonna get real ugly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 02, 2020, 07:08:59 AM

The idea that the most vulnerable has been culled and therefore the virus has weakened is flat out naïve. There are still millions of vulnerable people out there and had we not shut things down then things could have been a lot worse. And as someone mentioned, the pandemic will likely get worse because of the protests and other knucklehead parties on the patio threatening to erase all the progress we have made AND we still have July 4th weekend to get through.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 02, 2020, 07:16:55 AM

Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to promote a news site that has little ligitimacy.  I normally do a browse through google news once or twice a day, and since they agrigate, a lot of sites are represented.  I found that article on that feed.

On the subject of viruses in general, I'm no scientist or researcher, but I seem to remember learning in college that viruses have a tendancy to become less lethal over time and not more because the virus wants to spread itself as much as possible and if it kills the host, that makes the spread less effective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 02, 2020, 07:42:01 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 02, 2020, 07:08:59 AM

The idea that the most vulnerable has been culled and therefore the virus has weakened is flat out naïve. There are still millions of vulnerable people out there and had we not shut things down then things could have been a lot worse. And as someone mentioned, the pandemic will likely get worse because of the protests and other knucklehead parties on the patio threatening to erase all the progress we have made AND we still have July 4th weekend to get through.  :(

We'll see. We're also entering the summer season where viral infections (colds and flu) tend to wane naturally, so it'll be interesting to see how Covid is affected by that. No one seems to really be able to venture a guess whether we'll see a similar effect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on June 03, 2020, 08:52:39 PM

So I have no f'n clue WTF Dream Street is, but 34 years old?? Damn!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/celebrity/dream-streets-chris-trousdale-dies-from-covid-19-at-34/ar-BB14ZhDn?li=BBnbfcL

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on June 04, 2020, 04:12:16 AM

Finland has zero new daily cases for the first time since March.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 04, 2020, 09:34:09 AM

Our county had been flat for almost two weeks in a row. We now have 3 new cases...…….

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 04, 2020, 10:07:51 AM

As per data this week, only 5,5% of the blood donors in The Netherlands tested positive for covid-19 antibodies (this was around 3% back in april). This likely indicates that in The Netherlands the vast majority is still susceptible to the virus. Though discussions are to be had how representative this group is for the nation as a whole and how many are tested before they got positive, it still serves as an indication. For reference, it is believed that 60% of the population needs to be immune for group immunity to be effective enough to prevent major outbreaks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on June 04, 2020, 08:56:33 PM

Well, after having been untouched by Covid, the hammer came down today. I work in Healthcare for a large organization and figured that things would mostly be status quo. Nope. While I realize that having a job is the main thing, this still stings quite a bit.

- No raises
- No bonus (I usually get around $3k after taxes in November)
- All 401k matching will cease
- My salary level will not accrue any more PTO for the rest of the year (I will lose roughly 2 weeks of time off)

All of this after the 'great new tax law' sucked up my return which I roll into my emergency fund along with the November bonus. I essentially lost all of my funding for that.

This year really sucks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 05, 2020, 05:03:41 AM

I mentioned earlier, be thankful you didn't get hit with a salary reduction.  5% reduction for EVERY employee in the company; 10% for Managers; 15% for VPs and higher.  401k contributions suspended.  Until the end of our FY21 (we run July-June)

Considering 40M people have a 100% reduction, I'm not going to be too stuffed over this - at least until such point our company posts profits (*if* they do) ... then I'll be beyond pissed. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 05, 2020, 05:18:29 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on June 04, 2020, 08:56:33 PM

Well, after having been untouched by Covid, the hammer came down today. I work in Healthcare for a large organization and figured that things would mostly be status quo. Nope. While I realize that having a job is the main thing, this still stings quite a bit.

- No raises
- No bonus (I usually get around $3k after taxes in November)
- All 401k matching will cease
- My salary level will not accrue any more PTO for the rest of the year (I will lose roughly 2 weeks of time off)

All of this after the 'great new tax law' sucked up my return which I roll into my emergency fund along with the November bonus. I essentially lost all of my funding for that.

This year really sucks.

The first three suck, but like Jingle said, it could be way worse than that. That last one with the PTO though.... That's the one that would really get me pissed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 05, 2020, 05:38:19 AM

It's frankly illegal in Ontario to arbitrarily reduce salary.  Now, COVID times notwithstanding, it'll never stand up in court (nor would it be worth the cost), so there's no fighting it.  However, if the company REALLY cared about employees, they'd have offered something back in return.  They didn't, just imposed it on the entire company, and were somewhat callous in the explanation to the employee base.  Coupled with the fact they are continuing on with shareholder dividends just proves that Shareholders and stock value is more important than employees or engagement.

So, I'll take matters into my own hands.  The way I look at it, I've got an additional 2 weeks of UNPAID vacation coming to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 05, 2020, 06:48:39 AM

I was shocked that my company still gave raises last week which kick in in July. I thought for sure they'd hold off on those. We also got our full bonus, which again surprised me. Though in fairness, my company had a fantastic fiscal year and its a medical company which shouldn't be hit too hard by Covid related stuff. A pleasant surprise for sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 05, 2020, 08:15:02 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on June 04, 2020, 08:56:33 PM

Well, after having been untouched by Covid, the hammer came down today. I work in Healthcare for a large organization and figured that things would mostly be status quo. Nope. While I realize that having a job is the main thing, this still stings quite a bit.

- No raises
- No bonus (I usually get around $3k after taxes in November)
- All 401k matching will cease
- My salary level will not accrue any more PTO for the rest of the year (I will lose roughly 2 weeks of time off)

All of this after the 'great new tax law' sucked up my return which I roll into my emergency fund along with the November bonus. I essentially lost all of my funding for that.

This year really sucks.

That's first I've heard of that move.   That's kind of huge.   We've frozen increases across the board, ExCom members are subject to wage adjustments, and there have been a few layoffs (I tend to think those were coming anyway, though, since we're in the middle of a reorg that was planned before COVID), but we are getting our bonus (idea is that it is for last year's success and so there's a "moral" obligation to follow through on promises; it's been made clear that next year's bonus is speculative at best). 

I'm pragmatic about it; if the company fails - and in my industry that's a possibility - then we're all adrift, and at this point I have a lot of eggs - not all, but a lot - in one basket.  I can't be too put out by the company wanting to post a profit and keep investors interested; that's going to pay long term dividends - both literally and figuratively - and that will be of benefit in the long run.  I do understand though, how it stings in the immediate present. 

In any event, I'm sorry to hear that, Prof, Jingle. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 05, 2020, 09:43:24 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on June 05, 2020, 05:38:19 AM

It's frankly illegal in Ontario to arbitrarily reduce salary.

Is that for your industry, or for any employed individual in any industry? If an industry tanks, or a business's revenue goes in the crapper, wouldn't it be better for employees to take a pay cut rather than get axed?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 05, 2020, 09:58:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on June 05, 2020, 08:15:02 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on June 04, 2020, 08:56:33 PM

Well, after having been untouched by Covid, the hammer came down today. I work in Healthcare for a large organization and figured that things would mostly be status quo. Nope. While I realize that having a job is the main thing, this still stings quite a bit.

- No raises
- No bonus (I usually get around $3k after taxes in November)
- All 401k matching will cease
- My salary level will not accrue any more PTO for the rest of the year (I will lose roughly 2 weeks of time off)

All of this after the 'great new tax law' sucked up my return which I roll into my emergency fund along with the November bonus. I essentially lost all of my funding for that.

This year really sucks.

That's first I've heard of that move. 

The Large Healthcare company I work for did the same thing through the end of the year.


Sorry to hear about the salary reduction Chad  :tdwn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 05, 2020, 12:52:12 PM

I feel really bad for you guys.  loss of pay and benefits, man that is rough.  I guess I feel a little guilty too because my job hasn't been affected at all.

I'm grateful that my job and benefits haven't changed, but I just dont' like seeing people suffer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 05, 2020, 05:13:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on June 05, 2020, 09:43:24 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on June 05, 2020, 05:38:19 AM

It's frankly illegal in Ontario to arbitrarily reduce salary.

Is that for your industry, or for any employed individual in any industry? If an industry tanks, or a business's revenue goes in the crapper, wouldn't it be better for employees to take a pay cut rather than get axed?

It's provincial law.  I'm simplifying it, as there are some conditions by which it's permissible.  And your latter statement is true enough.  Amputate a few fingers to save your arm or life... I get it.  The law is in place so employers can't arbitrarily cut a workers pay and tell them to suck it.  That's a form of what we term as "constructive dismissal", and an employee has the right to compensation for any such action.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 05, 2020, 05:25:48 PM

I gotta admit I'm not very concerned about the virus anymore. We thought it was going to be this massive terrible thing that's killing a crazy amount of people... and it's not. Just like usual... my anxiety always makes me panic more than I need to. Back to normal here, for me, anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 05, 2020, 05:51:09 PM

They always said that if things end up not seeming so bad after all, then that's because we "overreacted" so much at first.  Some say we didn't do enough and it didn't have to get as bad as it did.  I know three people personally who got it, and two of them were very near death for a while.  Both will have some lasting side effects, as they're both my age (late 50's).  Someone in my kids' circle of friends got it, and he too survived, but it wasn't fun.

So while by some measures (total deaths, total infected, etc.) it could have been worse, if you ask anyone who was directly affected by it, we could have done more to get on top of it at the beginning.

But I see your point.  Things are opening back up around here.  People sitting outside at restaurants, no masks obviously since that kinda interferes with eating and drinking, and non-essential businesses opening back up, too.  Maybe what that doctor in Italy said is true; the ones most susceptible and who were gonna get it anyway have gotten it by now.  Sadly, yes, some have died.  But statistically that means that those of us left are less likely to get it, pass it around, and/or be affected by it.  Some pockets of the population, because of geography, business or profession, bad luck or whatever, got hit harder.  And it's still out there, and things could be bad for you if you catch it; no one knows.

But many who've gotten it have survived.  People forget that.  It's not an automatic death sentence, but we do add it to the list of things you could die from if you get it, like cancer or even regular flu.  And life goes on.  I hate the term "new normal" and I hope someone comes up with something better and it catches on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 05, 2020, 07:08:23 PM

Well, I didn't mean to imply nobody was severely affected by it, but we're going to get that with any new disease. I'm just saying, we were made to believe this was going to kill people like something we've never seen, and... it hasn't. 600+ cases in my zip code and only 7 have died, and all of those people were very old. I've followed this thread very closely so I've read all the stories, and I definitely don't want to sound insensitive because I myself was very worried for a long time. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not nearly as bad as we made it out to be, at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 05, 2020, 07:10:11 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 05, 2020, 07:08:23 PM

Well, I didn't mean to imply nobody was severely affected by it, but we're going to get that with any new disease. I'm just saying, we were made to believe this was going to kill people like something we've never seen, and... it hasn't. 600+ cases in my zip code and only 7 have died, and all of those people were very old. I've followed this thread very closely so I've read all the stories, and I definitely don't want to sound insensitive because I myself was very worried for a long time. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not nearly as bad as we made it out to be, at all.

Because of our response. Not because it was never that big a deal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on June 05, 2020, 08:21:03 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 05, 2020, 07:10:11 PM

Because of our response. Not because it was never that big a deal.

yes I think it's probably impossible to underestimate the difference it did that so many people around the whole world purposefully(usually following state guidelines) stayed away from social situations for a prolonged time.  Just the sheer number of gatherings that happen everyday that we never think about that just didn'T happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on June 05, 2020, 08:22:38 PM

edit: double post

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 05, 2020, 08:45:43 PM

So if only people social distanced, Randall Flagg never would have been able to take over Las Vegas??

Regarding our response, it certainly had an effect, but was it as good as it should have been? Should Floyd's Barbershop been shut down while the construction crew down the street built the new hockey arena? We were told to distance ourselves, but the packed subways and buses kept running.

School starting in the fall is going to be a massive decision districts are going to have to make soon. How long can we keep our kids out of school, while their parents are going back to work? How long is a virtual system, or alternating schedules, or whatever they decide short of back to "normal," sustainable?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on June 05, 2020, 10:57:02 PM

Our CIO had an all hands meeting today and pretty much said that even though our building in Chicago is now open, he doesn't expect anyone to come in because the guidelines are strict and it just doesn't make sense. Meeting rooms are off limits and he said why should people come in just to sit in Teams meetings at their desk all day when we've proven we can do it at home? Plus, the whole public transportation thing.

His feeling is, don't bother worrying about coming in until a vaccine has broken through and herd immunity starts to kick in. Apparently, our IT department of nearly 1000 really impressed the big shots with the quality of our work while at home.

I guess that's nice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 05, 2020, 11:26:12 PM

We're in basically the same boat.  Our HQ building is opening back up on a limited basis, but my whole department was in this "open design" seating area or whatever the fuck it's called, and there's no way that'll fly now.  Plus, we've all been working from home for three months now (I've been doing it since last year), so we've proven that we don't have to be there in the office to get our work done.  I'm programming and support, so whether I'm sitting at my desk at work or sitting at my desk at home makes no difference.

So our director sent an email around following up on the one that the president sent, saying that although the building is opening, we're not in the first batch of people to come back, and we won't be in the next one either.  In fact, for the forseeable future, just plan to continue working from home until they can figure out what to do about the seating arrangements, or just decide to officially let us work from home all the time (which honestly would make more sense anyway).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on June 06, 2020, 12:27:56 AM

Over 100,000 people have died from this in the US.  And that's *with* the social distancing measures and shut downs and stay at home orders.  I believe the statistic was that 34k died from flu in the US in 2019 - without any of these measures.  So how many more people would have died from covid-19 had we just carried on, business as usual?  It's not that it wasn't/isn't a big deal.  Over 100k already is a big deal, and it could have been much worse.  And it's not over.  I would absolutely love for the worst to be over, but it seems that a second wave is likely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on June 06, 2020, 02:01:25 AM

Something that is not talked about that much is the survivors.... the people who where in intensive care for a week or more.

It's not like they are bouncing right back.

They need a lot of rehab, learning to walk again. Not just old people either.

It's going to take months for a lot people to get back to a more normal life.

So compairing this with the flue is not correct. We don't see thousands of people needing months of rehab afyer the flue do we?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 06, 2020, 03:53:05 AM

Edit: reading back the last page or so and my heart goes out to those financially affectes by this. That sucks, even for the people where the financial damage is fairly minor (for those significantly affected it is obviously not minor, some of my friends have been hit hard already).

I just heard I will get contract renewal, so that was good to hear. But in my field of work there might be more jobs than before, actually. My worry for my job came more from the US pulling out from WHO funding, as my projects are directly related to them.

Quote from: SwedishGoose on June 06, 2020, 02:01:25 AM

Something that is not talked about that much is the survivors.... the people who where in intensive care for a week or more.

It's not like they are bouncing right back.

They need a lot of rehab, learning to walk again. Not just old people either.

It's going to take months for a lot people to get back to a more normal life.

So compairing this with the flue is not correct. We don't see thousands of people needing months of rehab afyer the flue do we?

Yeah, our news also stated people that have been "better" for more than two months are still far from being well. Not just the hospitalization cases. Many people that recovered from mild disease are reporting they still feel unwell, including people in their 30's and 20's. Our healthcare system does not really track people that are considered better, so it is hard to obtain actual numbers. But a Dutch facebook page for fellow sufferers of long term symptoms has 11000 members already, for example. And a dutch site for health indications has thousands of reactions sharing similar findings, which is highly unusual as well. (For a reference of scope, we are at around 47000 confirmed cases).

And the ones that were on intensive care have so much scarring that the lung damage could be permanent.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on June 06, 2020, 04:34:59 AM

Joining on the "it's not the apocalypse because we reacted and we should have reacted even more" team.

If we could travel back in time knowing now what we know, and if the entire world went on lockdown from the 2nd of January, it would have prevented so many deaths. And people would have wondered why the hell we sacrificed the rest of winter's social life and work because of a random virus scare from the far east.

At the very least, this is a wake up call about the fragility of the world and the risks of pandemics. Sometimes I wonder if a huge disaster is what it takes to let people wake the hell up.

What was "better" for safety at sea? a number of minor incidents or the friggin' Titanic sinking to make people realize that you need to have enough spaces on lifeboats for everyone on board? what if the nukes were never unleashed upon Japan at the end of World War II - would someone in the cold war be tempted to use them, without knowing the full horrors they bring?

The SARS came and we didn't realize what a close call it was, Ebola came and nobody cared because it was in Africa and you know, Africa gets diseases. I'm not happy at all that the Covid-19 happened, but at the very very very very least, it's a global wake up call.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2020, 05:39:13 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on June 06, 2020, 04:34:59 AM

but at the very very very very least, it's a global wake up call.

That's cute.

I have no faith in humanity that we will 'wake up' from this.  I hope I'm wrong, but this issue did not 'unite' humanity in a common cause.  I hope there are significant efforts and resources put into planning / prevention, but our collective response to *this* pandemic doesn't fill me with hope or optimism.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 06, 2020, 07:52:12 AM

I wasn't really worried about it. I would've worried more if it was killing off more healthy people.

There are people who don't go and see there doctor (me being one) regularly or for any small reason, usually only going when it's something serious or when it's to the point of going in to the hospital. Who's to say people are healthy, unless it's confirmed by their primary care doctor. I wonder how many that got covid, just now found out they have some sort of disease or underlying illness Covid made known.

Here in my state, Albuquerque is the biggest city. I see a lot of older, white, people running, walking, hiking, and the popular cycling. Older Hispanic, Native, Black people I don't see doing as much. Seeing these things, are why I see covid as hitting those that are Unhealthy harder. Immune deficiency, Organs that are not working as they should or illnesses that affect these things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 06, 2020, 08:21:29 AM

Yeah....this might not only NOT be a wake up call....it might even be what really screws us the next time something hits.  A LARGE portion of this country will point to Covid-19, and go "See, it hardly killed anyone, the death rate was SO low, and the economy was hurt for nothing!" when the next pandemic hits.  Maybe not, but if a large portion of the country adopts that attitude, it will get ugly.

In the US, it isn't "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger"....it is more like "what doesn't kill us makes us arrogant/stupid"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on June 06, 2020, 09:09:47 AM

I see too that society hasn't become any better in the least, I meant the "wake up call" thing as in people finally acknowledging that pandemics are a real thing, that it can really alter our way of life - and it just did. Last time worlwide sporting events were canceled, friggin' Adolf Hitler was alive - oh, random shoutout to the heroes of Normandy, 81 years since D-Day btw - , so they weren't cancelled because of another war, because of political crises, because of alien invasions, they were cancelled because of a virus.

But I'm afraid eric42434224 might not be wrong, alas......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on June 06, 2020, 09:20:17 AM

I work for the Tennessee state government and the governor has announced an upcoming buyout. If I am offered will consider.  Of course given this is the government, the package will be much less than a private company.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 06, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

Quote from: Adami on June 05, 2020, 07:10:11 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 05, 2020, 07:08:23 PM

Well, I didn't mean to imply nobody was severely affected by it, but we're going to get that with any new disease. I'm just saying, we were made to believe this was going to kill people like something we've never seen, and... it hasn't. 600+ cases in my zip code and only 7 have died, and all of those people were very old. I've followed this thread very closely so I've read all the stories, and I definitely don't want to sound insensitive because I myself was very worried for a long time. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not nearly as bad as we made it out to be, at all.

Because of our response. Not because it was never that big a deal.

I didn't say it was never that big a deal. I said it wasn't nearly as big a deal as we initially made it out to be. I think even if we hadn't shut down the economy, it wouldn't have been as catastrophic as we make it seem like it would have been. People are out in droves now and we're going to see cases increase in a big way, but it doesn't mean the death toll is going to be nearly as severe as we expected it to be initially. We thought it was going to be some kind of supervirus that was going to take down people in droves, and that simply is not happening.

I fully understand that the measures we (as a country) took helped. That's obvious. I understand the severity of the disease on certain people who are struggling to recover. But we have that with lots of diseases. I'm not trying to be callous or make light of any of this. I'm just saying, the disease itself is not the plague we thought it was going to be. Yes, I know over 100k people in the country have died from it. Yes, I know it badly affects people. Yes, I know people of all ages have died from it. It still did not turn out to be the virus we thought it was going to be. Like I said, over 600, almost 700 cases in my zip code alone, less than 10 deaths, all elderly, whereas I initially thought we were going to see dozens and dozens of deaths and people all over town becoming very sick as it spread.

Sorry if that offends anyone. I, myself, am not really that concerned about it anymore, partially because I don't live in a heavily populated area. I still wear a mask when I go inside a gas station or grocery store. I still take precautions. I'm just not fretting like I was. And I'm not saying nobody should be concerned. I'm not a dummy, I know people here live in cities, and their approach to the virus is going to be different than mine where I live, at the current time. I get it. Just use common sense and be smart and you'll be okay.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 06, 2020, 11:49:59 AM

Yes I think my post will end up being pretty accurate unfortunately

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 06, 2020, 11:52:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on June 06, 2020, 05:39:13 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on June 06, 2020, 04:34:59 AM

but at the very very very very least, it's a global wake up call.

That's cute.

I have no faith in humanity that we will 'wake up' from this.  I hope I'm wrong, but this issue did not 'unite' humanity in a common cause.  I hope there are significant efforts and resources put into planning / prevention, but our collective response to *this* pandemic doesn't fill me with hope or optimism.

Chad... the cynicism and pessimism is strong with this post. If you went into this thing expecting a magical 'uniting' of humanity, of course you're going to be disappointed. Human nature is far too complex for everyone to suddenly be united just because there's a worldwide tragedy. If that were true, we would've entered an everlasting utopian age after the end of World War 2 (or insert any massive event in prior centuries). That never happened. "No faith in humanity" is such a bleak, cynical outlook on the world. Humans aren't robots, we aren't perfect beings. We are a tribal species, always have been. Things like that don't just change overnight even if we're all fighting a common enemy. You're looking at one of the biggest problems in the existence of mankind (edit: this refers to the tribalism of humanity, for those needing clarity on the point of this post). A little optimism would go a long way, my friend. Look how fast they're (collectively, scientists and health experts) racing to find a vaccine/cure for this disease. Look at all the good things people did for each other (and still are doing, by making masks, buying groceries for others, etc.) during this event. C'mon... just my two cents, anyway.

And then, look at how many people eschew the guidelines of social distancing in favor of making their voices heard against corruption and systemic, institutional racism. That's pretty awesome, imo, putting their beliefs in such a cause over the fear of their own health. That's powerful stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 06, 2020, 12:01:53 PM

From....

Quote from: Kattelox on June 06, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

I said it wasn't nearly as big a deal as we initially made it out to be. I think even if we hadn't shut down the economy, it wouldn't have been as catastrophic as we make it seem like it would have been.

Quote from: Kattelox on June 06, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

I'm just saying, the disease itself is not the plague we thought it was going to be.

to....

Quote from: Kattelox on June 06, 2020, 11:52:59 AM

You're looking at one of the biggest problems in the existence of mankind.

 :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 06, 2020, 12:03:53 PM

I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain this, but I was referring to the tribalism of humanity. You took two quotes from two separate posts responding to two separate people and tried to glean the same point from two different things. Reading is hard, I know

Anyway, I suppose that's all I have to say, just wanted to get my thoughts out there. Stay safe, everyone

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 06, 2020, 12:07:49 PM

That is a perfectly reasonable explanation.  But to be fair, when someone who reads it, who didn't write it, it doesn't read that way.
Your statement immediately follows you discussing "fighting the common enemy" (referencing Chad discussing us fighting Covid-19)
Yes, reading can be hard, but sometimes writing clearly is more difficult.
But thanks for clarifying :)

EDIT:  and I agree with Chad....the cynicism is well deserved.  As great the potential for the human race is, our track record falls short time and time again.  The reaction of the world today, with a variety of subjects, bears that out.

Title: unless i get banned for impersonating a moderator first....
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 06, 2020, 12:13:44 PM

everybody chill out or i'm going to start handing out bans

:borlag:

Title: Re: unless i get banned for impersonating a moderator first....
Post by: eric42434224 on June 06, 2020, 12:17:25 PM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 06, 2020, 12:13:44 PM

everybody chill out or i'm going to start handing out bans

:borlag:

I don't think anybody isn't chill.  :chill  I thought I read a huge inconsistency in a posters position.  Said poster made a clarification.  I thanked said poster.  Said poster even made sure to tell me to be safe.   :heart

I now plan to take some mind altering substances, put on some Ian Fletcher Thornley, get a cold beverage......and relax in mah pool.
STAY SAFE EVERYONE!!!!!  I will do same....I have a floatie

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 06, 2020, 12:57:26 PM

Yeah I thought that was fairly chill. :tup :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 07, 2020, 05:42:04 AM

It's all good.  No attacks, just conversation.  That's how we DTF

As for my cynicism... yes, I am cynical at a macro level.  Time and time again (for the most part), humanity fails to act on the macro issues that have massive impacts to the species.  Climate change, this virus, obesity are just a few things that come immediately to mind.  We're a very selfish species.  On a daily or weekly basis we simply do more things (again, macro level) that are to our detriment vs things that will propel us forward.  I subscribe to a number of things that try to find the good in humanity (goodnewsnetwork for instance), so I try to get my mind there.  But there's simply too much where "hold my beer" is the thought that comes to mind.

As for the virus, I'm with you to some degree - and have been for a while.  Living in a sparsely populated town and region of the country, and falling in the demographic I do, I'm not terribly worried PERSONALLY about COVID.  But at a macro level, I was petrified, and still am.  jingle.son has a job in downtown Niagara Falls - almost exclusively a tourism economy).  They'll be opening up soon, and our Provincial government is launching a marketing campaign around domestic vacations/tourism.  So, people from hard hit areas around Toronto are being ENCOURAGED to visit the area.  Well, as I posted long ago, the virus doesn't move itself - we move it.  So the likelihood that we see a bigger outbreak in my area could go up exponentially.  jingle.son had asthma as a child... he could still have underlying conditions.  So, yeah ... I'm still very worried about this fucking thing.

We're only a few bad decisions away from a worse impact than what was seen in March/April

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 08, 2020, 07:30:17 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on June 06, 2020, 04:34:59 AM

Joining on the "it's not the apocalypse because we reacted and we should have reacted even more" team.

If we could travel back in time knowing now what we know, and if the entire world went on lockdown from the 2nd of January, it would have prevented so many deaths. And people would have wondered why the hell we sacrificed the rest of winter's social life and work because of a random virus scare from the far east.

At the very least, this is a wake up call about the fragility of the world and the risks of pandemics. Sometimes I wonder if a huge disaster is what it takes to let people wake the hell up.

What was "better" for safety at sea? a number of minor incidents or the friggin' Titanic sinking to make people realize that you need to have enough spaces on lifeboats for everyone on board? what if the nukes were never unleashed upon Japan at the end of World War II - would someone in the cold war be tempted to use them, without knowing the full horrors they bring?

The SARS came and we didn't realize what a close call it was, Ebola came and nobody cared because it was in Africa and you know, Africa gets diseases. I'm not happy at all that the Covid-19 happened, but at the very very very very least, it's a global wake up call.

I get this idea, but if I had started playing the guitar at four, and put in nine hour days every day, foresaking all social contact, I'd be Yngwie Stadler, and yet... I'm not.  I didn't, and I'm not.   Hindsight is fantastic for some things, but not for others, and I think this is one of them.  The knee-jerk reaction was never - and, in my opinion SHOULD NOT BE - the first option. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 08, 2020, 07:54:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on June 07, 2020, 05:42:04 AM

It's all good.  No attacks, just conversation.  That's how we DTF

As for my cynicism... yes, I am cynical at a macro level.  Time and time again (for the most part), humanity fails to act on the macro issues that have massive impacts to the species.  Climate change, this virus, obesity are just a few things that come immediately to mind.  We're a very selfish species.  On a daily or weekly basis we simply do more things (again, macro level) that are to our detriment vs things that will propel us forward.  I subscribe to a number of things that try to find the good in humanity (goodnewsnetwork for instance), so I try to get my mind there.  But there's simply too much where "hold my beer" is the thought that comes to mind.

As for the virus, I'm with you to some degree - and have been for a while.  Living in a sparsely populated town and region of the country, and falling in the demographic I do, I'm not terribly worried PERSONALLY about COVID.  But at a macro level, I was petrified, and still am.  jingle.son has a job in downtown Niagara Falls - almost exclusively a tourism economy).  They'll be opening up soon, and our Provincial government is launching a marketing campaign around domestic vacations/tourism.  So, people from hard hit areas around Toronto are being ENCOURAGED to visit the area.  Well, as I posted long ago, the virus doesn't move itself - we move it.  So the likelihood that we see a bigger outbreak in my area could go up exponentially.  jingle.son had asthma as a child... he could still have underlying conditions.  So, yeah ... I'm still very worried about this fucking thing.

We're only a few bad decisions away from a worse impact than what was seen in March/April

Is it possible to agree with Katt and you on this?  I think it is, because there's separate points there, but I think you both have kernels of truth.  I think there won't be a wake-up call, not for the cynical "humans suck" reasons, but because it will be, in 50 years, a blip in the road.  We look back now on air-raid drills, and some of the other measures taken a century ago in the heat of the moment and sort of scratch our heads.   I don't think it's a long-shot prediction to think that we'll look the same way at delivery persons leaving our food on the doorstep and backing away like it's a live bomb on Law and Order:SVU. 

Having said that, it IS highlighting a dark side of our humanity, and that's the burgeoning individuality that we're living through.  I can't speak for other countries, but here in the States, the "power" (in quotes, because it's not real power, and when it shows signs of real power, it's just bullying, largely) of the individual is so blown out of proportion at this point.  And that's a problem, because the larger the gap between the perceived "power" and the actual results breeds the type of insecurity and frustration that leads to many of the things we've been seeing over the last 10 or so years.   The increased dependence on psychotropic drugs; the increased dependence on illicit drugs; the increased suicide rates; the increase in the mass killing frequencies; there are others.   We saw this in the late 90's and early aughts with the increase in terrorist activity, finding that many (most?) terrorists were better educated, more informed, and more financially secure than conventional wisdom suggested, and I think Thomas Friedman got it right in "From Beirut To Jerusalem" when he attributed it to something close to what I suggested here:  they were the elites of a sort in the Muslim culture, and yet the lifestyle they espoused, lived, and fought for hadn't yielded the intended results.

We live in a "double-down" culture, and yet it's not working. You see it in politics, in culture, in social circles, in commercial circles...  here, over the past ten years or so, we've increased reliance on the individual, it hasn't really paid benefits, and yet we continue to double-down and reassert our individuality, blaming others, society, the government, the President, the deplorables, men, women, whites, blacks, Mike Portnoy...  I can give more detailed examples here if need be, but in the interest of space, I'll save them for now. The result is, though, this tribal mentality that makes certain things like owning a gun, or wearing a mask, or voting for a candidate broader statements than they need to be, or SHOULD be if we want a more collectively beneficial outcome. 

Even if I'm wrong, it's worth thinking about.  The theory - and that's all it is (though I mean it in the "scientific" definition, not the "WAG" definition) - does address a multitude of issues that we are facing here in the States over the last 15, 20 years. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 08, 2020, 09:09:52 AM

I think people in general have improved their hygiene due to this pandemic which is a good thing. I mean, I was a hand washer anyway BUT it was generally just after restroom uses. Now, I'm in the habit of just randomly washing my hands throughout the day. Plus, most businesses have greatly improved their cleaning process....scrubbing down things and being more attentive to sterilizing the commonly touched surfaces.

I never saw this as some huge 'wake up' call to humanity. I think humanity has to realize that if/when "mother nature" decides to place us in check it will.....not matter what precautions we use. That's not to suggest we don't use precautions but only that just when we think we've got it covered we can and will be shown we don't by the natural world.

I think it's possible that many aspects of 'why' this virus is dying down are true. Certainly the lock down helped and getting educated about the virus, better hygiene practices all around, perhaps the seasonal change.....but what I also believe is that it wasn't as dire as it was made out to be.

Meaning, I think it was/is a very contagious virus that has the potential to wreck certain individuals. But, I also think that it has been around (in the US) longer than what we thought as now we're seeing indications that it was probably here last fall. I think that there were a lot of us who came in contact with it without knowing it and our bodies dealt with it making the infection rate much higher and the death rate much lower.

I'm not trying to discount the deaths that have happened because of Covid.....when infecting the right person it was devastating, especially people with underlying conditions. The randomness of the virus is indeed frightening. But I can't get on board with the level of manipulation and fear mongering the media ran with for over three months. It was severely irresponsible and heavy handed and then add in the fact the level of political bias and it got extremely annoying.

What I do know is that from what I've seen where I live.....most everyone is treating it like Covid just disappeared. It's odd. My wife and I seem to be in the extreme minority when wearing masks when we go out. I actually get looks like I have six heads or something. It's weird. We will keep taking precautions until I see how the next few weeks plays out as far as infections given the sheer amount of protests and gathering that have taken place. I'd think in two weeks we will know if Covid still has staying power. Certainly with more testing the numbers will be higher but it'll still show us if the virus has it's potency.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on June 08, 2020, 09:18:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 08, 2020, 09:09:52 AM

I think it's possible that many aspects of 'why' this virus is dying down are true. Certainly the lock down helped and getting educated about the virus, better hygiene practices all around, perhaps the seasonal change.....but what I also believe is that it wasn't as dire as it was made out to be.

Someone apparently made a calculation, it looks like in Europe 3.1 million of deaths were avoided:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-lockdowns-averted-million-deaths-european.html

Of course there is no way to ever know if they're actually right or not, but I'm glad we can even have this discussion rather than being collectively traumatized by seeing an amount of death never seen since World War II.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 08, 2020, 09:23:59 AM

The frustrating thing will be there is just never going to be a way to get accurate numbers or projections from this thing given all the seemingly random variables surrounding it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on June 08, 2020, 09:25:59 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/EjipH4P.jpg)

Risk assessed as 1 - 9, with 1 being safest and 9 being the most risky

Source:  Dr. Matthew Sims, Beaumont Health Director of infectious disease research, Dr. Dennis Cunningham, McLaren Healthcare Medical Director for infection prevention, Dr. Mimi Emig, retired infectious disease specialist with Spectrum Health, Dr. Nasir Husain, Henry Ford Macomb Medical Director for infection prevention

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 08, 2020, 09:29:49 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 08, 2020, 09:23:59 AM

The frustrating thing will be there is just never going to be a way to get accurate numbers or projections from this thing given all the seemingly random variables surrounding it.

Yeah, it is frustrating. Many people are going to look at the lockdowns and say that they obviously worked because of the relatively low number of deaths. Others are going to say that the lockdowns and the economic fallout were one of the biggest overreactions in the history of mankind because the virus ended up being far less dangerous than many feared it would be. While the lockdowns certainly helped to some degree, there's no way to know if it was worth it, which is frustrating. We're going to be dealing with the economic fallout of the lockdowns and stimulus spending for years. It would be nice to know conclusively that the actions taken were worth it so that we have a model of what to do in the future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 08, 2020, 09:35:37 AM

Quote from: Harmony on June 08, 2020, 09:25:59 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/EjipH4P.jpg)

Risk assessed as 1 - 9, with 1 being safest and 9 being the most risky

Source:  Dr. Matthew Sims, Beaumont Health Director of infectious disease research, Dr. Dennis Cunningham, McLaren Healthcare Medical Director for infection prevention, Dr. Mimi Emig, retired infectious disease specialist with Spectrum Health, Dr. Nasir Husain, Henry Ford Macomb Medical Director for infection prevention

Interesting. I'd be curious to know the assumptions used for those risks. I've been in bars that are packed to the gills and you can't get up to the bars without gently pushing through people. I've been in others where there are only a dozen people there spread out in small groups. Huge difference in the risk level there. I'm going to guess that he assumed that everything was full to capacity without any additional precautions.

Also, why would camping be as risky as staying in a hotel? In a hotel I have to touch many surfaces that have been touched by others and could be in close proximity on elevators, hallways, or lobbies... and I'm indoors. Camping it's all my gear and my site is generally at least 25 feet from the others (often much more)... and it's completely outdoors apart from bathroom buildings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on June 08, 2020, 09:36:42 AM

[Lightening the mood moment]

What's the risk for a gathering of Dream Theater fans who all know each other in real life?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 08, 2020, 09:38:24 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on June 08, 2020, 09:36:42 AM

[Lightening the mood moment]

What's the risk for a gathering of Dream Theater fans who all know each other in real life?

Pretty sure it's you just become virgins again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 08, 2020, 09:41:24 AM

I feel like an airplane would be higher risk than a playground

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 08, 2020, 09:41:45 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 08, 2020, 09:38:24 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on June 08, 2020, 09:36:42 AM

[Lightening the mood moment]

What's the risk for a gathering of Dream Theater fans who all know each other in real life?

Pretty sure it's you just become virgins again.

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 08, 2020, 09:44:33 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 08, 2020, 09:41:24 AM

I feel like an airplane would be higher risk than a playground

Yeah, no kidding. If we assume a playground at 100% capacity with a bunch of slobbery kids versus a plane at 100% capacity with adults, I guess I can see why maybe the plane would be less risky. Maybe? Again, I'd love to see the assumptions behind the risk ratings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 08, 2020, 09:50:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 08, 2020, 09:44:33 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 08, 2020, 09:41:24 AM

I feel like an airplane would be higher risk than a playground

Yeah, no kidding. If we assume a playground at 100% capacity with a bunch of slobbery kids versus a plane at 100% capacity with adults, I guess I can see why maybe the plane would be less risky. Maybe? Again, I'd love to see the assumptions behind the risk ratings.

Yea, too many variables to make that chart be a 100% accurate assessment, but I'm not shitting on the chart.  I think it's a fine baseline to layout for people to think about their actions.  Like, how many times this week have I been in a risk 5+ situation? I guess it will play a role in the reopening we are starting to see.

I heard from the girl ive been seeing that her hair/nail stylist is opening back up at the end of the month so I'm thinking NJ will announce soon the re-opening for salons which I am very excited for.  Apparently this lady said there is a $5 surcharge too because of the extra costs to clean before/after each person and using fresh equipment between people as well. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 08, 2020, 09:59:35 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 08, 2020, 09:38:24 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on June 08, 2020, 09:36:42 AM

[Lightening the mood moment]

What's the risk for a gathering of Dream Theater fans who all know each other in real life?

Pretty sure it's you just become virgins again.

"Again"?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on June 08, 2020, 10:06:40 AM

Thanks for that Harmony.  At first I would have thought dentist offices would have been much higher risk than some of the other things on this list, but maybe if they're all wearing the right kind of masks the risk is lower.

I think airplanes are lower than they otherwise would be because of the cleaning the airlines have implemented.  I wonder if they'll continue doing things like leaving the middle seat open. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on June 08, 2020, 10:11:34 AM

This article goes into more depth as to how/why they were ranking the way they were.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/06/from-hair-salons-to-gyms-experts-rank-36-activities-by-coronavirus-risk-level.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 08, 2020, 10:21:27 AM

I have a dentist appointment in like 2 weeks and I'm just gonna ask them to reschedule. That should buy me a good 7 weeks. Low risk or not I don't really want anyone that close to my mouth right now

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 08, 2020, 10:27:04 AM

If I had to guess, I think it would be the level of caution exercised in those environments.  For example:

-Camping vs. hotel:  In a hotel, the staff are likely (not in every case, but I think the study is assuming the typical response)  cleaning and sanitizing to death before guests occupy a room.  And then guests, likely being very cautious themselves, will sanitize any high-touch areas, wash frequently, etc.  In a camping environment, people tend to generally let their guard down much more and tolerate a much lower level of cleanliness.  And you have shared restroom and water facilities at many campgrounds that will not be cleaned and disinfected nearly as thoroughly as a hotel room, making risk of spread much higher even though those likely transmission points are fewer and farther in between.

-Playground vs. flight:  Most airlines are, again, VERY thoroughly cleaning, keeping separation by not fully booking flights, and have installed high grade HEPA filters.  Add it very high levels of caution by most passengers, and it isn't an overly dangerous environment (I have an older doctor friend that actually just traveled out of state with his wife and was telling me about his comfort level on flights right now, which was fairly high).  On a playground, as with camping, you again have less cleaning and less caution.  But you have many more high-touch areas, and kids that often do not know how to use proper care, even if parents are being reasonably diligent.

Not saying those risk levels are 100% spot on.  There are a lot of variables and assumptions, and could be errors as well.  But I had similar questions as you, but can understand the rationale given a bit of thought.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 08, 2020, 10:28:35 AM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 08, 2020, 10:21:27 AM

I have a dentist appointment in like 2 weeks and I'm just gonna ask them to reschedule. That should buy me a good 7 weeks. Low risk or not I don't really want anyone that close to my mouth right now

Yeah, we had one scheduled for my daughter, and she just has weak enamel and bad teeth in general, so regular appointments are VERY important with her.  But we still did not feel the risk was justified, and postponed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on June 08, 2020, 10:44:42 AM

I did my every six months cleaning a week ago (originally scheduled for late April) and am supposed to go back soon to get my lower left wisdom tooth pulled. It is not bothering me at all, but apparently has a slight crack and needs to go before it causes other problems. I’m debating how long I want to put it off. What do y’all think?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 08, 2020, 10:53:36 AM

A crack might be worth getting looked at sooner rather than later, but that's just me. However, I'm also the type of person who would even put that off. :P

I have weak enamel too, and I chipped one of my front teeth for like the third time a couple months ago - but it's not so bad that I'm desperate to go fix it (again...) just yet. Sigh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 08, 2020, 10:55:57 AM

For the crack, it depends.  If it is a hairline that doesn't leave anything exposed, such that there would likely be any significant immediate harm, I would definitely put it off.  If it is a more serious one, I would get it taken care of.  Just depends on the severity and risk it creates.  Hard to know that just by saying "a crack."  I guess if it were me, I would want to have a conversation with the dentist's office and weight the pros and cons of waiting after having that dialog.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 08, 2020, 10:56:07 AM

Quote from: Harmony on June 08, 2020, 10:11:34 AM

This article goes into more depth as to how/why they were ranking the way they were.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/06/from-hair-salons-to-gyms-experts-rank-36-activities-by-coronavirus-risk-level.html

Cool, thanks. That helps. I get that they're trying to make it simple with a single number, but my analytical brain always wants more details and to pick things apart.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on June 08, 2020, 03:15:46 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 08, 2020, 10:55:57 AM

For the crack, it depends.  If it is a hairline that doesn't leave anything exposed, such that there would likely be any significant immediate harm, I would definitely put it off.  If it is a more serious one, I would get it taken care of.  Just depends on the severity and risk it creates.  Hard to know that just by saying "a crack."  I guess if it were me, I would want to have a conversation with the dentist's office and weight the pros and cons of waiting after having that dialog.

Quote from: Kattelox on June 08, 2020, 10:53:36 AM

A crack might be worth getting looked at sooner rather than later, but that's just me. However, I'm also the type of person who would even put that off. :P

I have weak enamel too, and I chipped one of my front teeth for like the third time a couple months ago - but it's not so bad that I'm desperate to go fix it (again...) just yet. Sigh.

Good points by both of you.

I am basically looking for any excuse to put off getting it pulled, since recovering from a pulled wisdom tooth sucks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 09, 2020, 08:02:48 AM

I saw on Ridiculousness where a guy took care of that himself with a pair of electrician's pliers.   Something to consider. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on June 09, 2020, 08:43:37 AM

Quote from: Stadler on June 09, 2020, 08:02:48 AM

I saw on Ridiculousness where a guy took care of that himself with a pair of electrician's pliers.   Something to consider.

Did he yell "Wilson!!" at any point? ")

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on June 09, 2020, 08:44:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 08, 2020, 10:56:07 AM

Quote from: Harmony on June 08, 2020, 10:11:34 AM

This article goes into more depth as to how/why they were ranking the way they were.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/06/from-hair-salons-to-gyms-experts-rank-36-activities-by-coronavirus-risk-level.html

Cool, thanks. That helps. I get that they're trying to make it simple with a single number, but my analytical brain always wants more details and to pick things apart.

Hey, I have that same brain.   ;)


So I'm back on quarantine because one of my kids got a fever this past Sunday.  It has been much more difficult than I ever imagined to get a test for her.  Today we hope she'll finally get her test and then we wait for the results.  In the meantime, we aren't going anywhere just as the rest of the country seems to be getting back out there.

She's feeling a bit crappy and has a low-grade temp and sore throat, but otherwise is fine.  It might not be anything but since we don't know for sure, we aren't risking getting others sick.  And as she's not horribly ill, I feel fine complaining that I had to cancel my hair appointment that I've been waiting 3 months for.

I figure since everyone else got to complain about haircuts last month, I'd cut myself some slack and complain too.   :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 09, 2020, 08:50:20 AM

That sucks you are having difficulty getting a test, I thought that problem was resolved.  At least here they encourage anyone, even with no symptoms, to get tested if they want to.

Also, the part where you have a fever but feel probably not corona, and yet you take all the effective measures anyway.  I wonder if this is the future for everyone.  In the past, people would still show up to work sick.  Maybe, even if you don't think it's covid, maybe people will still be encouraged to not expose others when they are feeling ill.  Seems like common sense, but we all know the reality that people can't afford to lose pay and whatnot, or the business is demanding and they are pressured to work.  That's not the way to go IMO, never should have been, and maybe now people will realize health is pretty important and not just covid.  For example, I get temp scanned before entering work now.  Even without covid, if I had a fever I couldn't go to work.  While I'm no fan of being scanned everyday, it DOES make sense to me to keep sickly people away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 09, 2020, 09:07:20 AM

Testing over here has become fairly accessible, but only for the detection of the virus itself (with the use of PCR). Antibody testing is not accessible, but it heavily depends on which test was used in terms of accuracy; predictive values were quite low for some of the earlier ones (which is why I'd prefer any source to mention which test and which brand they have used). Our National Insitute for Public Health found some of the available commercial "quick" antibody tests to be of insufficient quality and recommends against them at this point in time.



On a positive note from work, all employees got a voucher of 30 euros that we can spend only on local catering businesses (order food, get a drink on a corona safe terrace etc.), or choose to donate. I assume that is where the budget for usual employee activities went, but I thought it was a nice solution. Given that we have thousands of employees, it should be a decent boost for the local catering industry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on June 09, 2020, 09:14:58 AM

That's an important point, cram.  Going forward it isn't just about staying home from work when YOU feel sick.  It's also if someone else in your family feels sick.  I mean, I have to assume that whatever my kid has, the entire family has it too.  Until we get test results, we have to operate under the assumption it is covid to avoid spreading it around.

Think about this in the fall when - hopefully - kids go back to school.  Kids get colds, viruses, and fevers all the time.  I'd be lying if I said I never gave my kid Tylenol and sent him off to classes because I couldn't take another day off work.  And I had paid sick time off!  Imagine people who don't - or who's employers pressure them to come to work anyway.  It's going to be a problem.  I don't trust a lot of people to do the right thing with regard to public health.  Especially if they don't get paid sick leave.

Oh and it seems the reasons why we are having a problem getting the test is because my kid isn't having a cough or respiratory issues.  Our Walgreens who is supposed to be doing testing on anyone has an algorithm you have to go through and when she does it based on her symptoms, it says to call your doctor.  So we had already done that and there is another algorithm in that medical system that also says she doesn't qualify.  She finally had a telehealth appointment yesterday and that doctor ordered the test but we are still waiting to get notified of where she needs to go.  It's been surprisingly difficult.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 09, 2020, 01:00:53 PM

Our governor in NJ just lifted the stay at home orders and I already got an invite to a BBQ this weekend

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 09, 2020, 02:48:12 PM

Bunch of my friends are going out to bars, having celebration gatherings of 20 people or more and posting all kinds of pics on FB.  Personally, I think it's too soon for any of that.  All it takes is one of those people to have been exposed to someone outside the group or any one of them for that matter.  I think a lot of people doing these kinds of things are going to be extremely regretful and end up wishing they hadn't.  A virus this nasty with a 14 day incubation period, there's gonna be another explosion of cases.  I think in some regions it's already started again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 09, 2020, 02:52:20 PM

I've talked about this with my wife and kids, and we all agree that just because we can go out and socialize again, we don't have to.  It still makes far more sense to stay vigilent and stay safe.  In other words, stay home.  Sure, go out and get food; you have to eat.  Then bring it home, wash your hands, and eat it.  Going out and hanging out with friends is the same as hanging out with everyone they've been exposed to in the past 14 days.  That's just asking for trouble.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on June 09, 2020, 02:54:17 PM

City 30 miles south of me had 8 new cases stemming from a graduation party last week.

And just like that, the county doubled their cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 09, 2020, 03:22:18 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 09, 2020, 02:48:12 PM

Bunch of my friends are going out to bars, having celebration gatherings of 20 people or more and posting all kinds of pics on FB.  Personally, I think it's too soon for any of that.  All it takes is one of those people to have been exposed to someone outside the group or any one of them for that matter.  I think a lot of people doing these kinds of things are going to be extremely regretful and end up wishing they hadn't.  A virus this nasty with a 14 day incubation period, there's gonna be another explosion of cases.  I think in some regions it's already started again.

Bingo

Quote from: Orbert on June 09, 2020, 02:52:20 PM

I've talked about this with my wife and kids, and we all agree that just because we can go out and socialize again, we don't have to.  It still makes far more sense to stay vigilent and stay safe.  In other words, stay home.  Sure, go out and get food; you have to eat.  Then bring it home, wash your hands, and eat it.  Going out and hanging out with friends is the same as hanging out with everyone they've been exposed to in the past 14 days.  That's just asking for trouble.

Plinko.

I fear disaster is looming sooner rather than later - I hope I'm wrong.  Complacency will fuck everything up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 09, 2020, 03:45:52 PM

I think this is really important to discuss and I'm really glad it was brought up.

I do agree that hanging out with friends and family means you are also hanging out with everyone they've been in contact with over the last 2 weeks.  However, I have 7 kids, and for their sanity and my own, I just can't keep them home any more.  So we have a rule that they need to ask their friends if anyone in their families has any sickness.  If the answer is no, then my kids can go hang out with them, if the answer is yes then they can't hand out until 2 weeks after everyone in the family is well.  I'm aware of the asymptomatic cases, but I've also decided that I just don't have the ability to worry about that.

But, my entire family still washes their hands after every time their out and we always wear masks and social distance when ever we patronize establishments.

That may sound a little (or a lot) lax to some of you, but because of my family dynamic, I can't do it any other way.  At least, not any more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 09, 2020, 04:21:24 PM

The hand sanitizer cost at your house NL.  Holy cow. Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 09, 2020, 05:18:12 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 09, 2020, 04:21:24 PM

The hand sanitizer cost at your house NL.  Holy cow. Lol

Some condoms would have been way cheaper lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: YtseJam on June 09, 2020, 05:58:50 PM

How many of you have died from Coronavirus?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 09, 2020, 06:02:07 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 09, 2020, 03:45:52 PM

I think this is really important to discuss and I'm really glad it was brought up.

I do agree that hanging out with friends and family means you are also hanging out with everyone they've been in contact with over the last 2 weeks.  However, I have 7 kids, and for their sanity and my own, I just can't keep them home any more.  So we have a rule that they need to ask their friends if anyone in their families has any sickness.  If the answer is no, then my kids can go hang out with them, if the answer is yes then they can't hand out until 2 weeks after everyone in the family is well.  I'm aware of the asymptomatic cases, but I've also decided that I just don't have the ability to worry about that.

But, my entire family still washes their hands after every time their out and we always wear masks and social distance when ever we patronize establishments.

That may sound a little (or a lot) lax to some of you, but because of my family dynamic, I can't do it any other way.  At least, not any more.

I personally don't think it's lax at all. I think it's perfectly reasonable. The reality is that we need to find a way to live with Covid being around for now. I don't think stopping our entire lives and never going out except for absolute necessities is a reasonable way to live.

Quote from: YtseJam on June 09, 2020, 05:58:50 PM

How many of you have died from Coronavirus?

:lol

I have no idea why I found that so funny.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on June 09, 2020, 06:13:17 PM

Well, this is my irrelevant thoughts about the whole people being more laxed now with going outside.  I only really get out of the house for groceries, gas, occasional takeout food, and going to concerts (with the desire to want to go to more hockey games on the regular) as my hobby of choice.  Since sporting events and concerts is going to be the last thing to become normal again, I still have very little desires to get out of the house unless I need food.

That stated, people are becoming really impatient with this whole staying inside and this is their reaction to it.  I just hope they can make rationale decisions about it for the greater good, but I don't see that happening in the way that will stop the virus from spreading hard again, because we're too selfish in general.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 09, 2020, 06:16:03 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

A virus or disease that kills over 100k people in a country is an objectively bad thing.  If people come together, or fight with each other, because of a virus, really has nothing to do objectively with the disease.  The behavior of people, good or bad (we have seen both), is 100% on the people....the virus doesn't make us do anything.....we choose to do things, and do not have to have a disease to get us do anything.  All it does is take away ownership of our behavior.

Virus -100% objectively BAD.

Now if you want to talk SUBJECTIVELY....maybe we can attribute some behavior to the effects of the disease.  But that was not your question.

JMHO of course :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on June 09, 2020, 06:38:11 PM

Quote from: WildRanger on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

Not sure. What do you think?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on June 09, 2020, 07:47:15 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

OMG, you were Wild Ranger this whole time! :marriageanalogy:




 :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 09, 2020, 08:49:07 PM

I am back at work. We are a crew of 4, plus the owner, who I rarely see, and the bookkeeper, whom I see even less. We wear masks when we are working in close quarters, and I do when I go to the hardware store or lumber yard (maybe half the customers had masks when I went today, but I wasn't really paying attention).

We are still staying at home as much as possible, though extended our quarantine family to now include my real family (sister's family and my parents). Kids play with the neighborhood kids, but have been doing that this whole time. I do not know when we will let them hang out with other friends. Communication is definitely important when potentially meeting with other families.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 10, 2020, 05:37:44 AM

Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on June 09, 2020, 07:47:15 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

OMG, you were Wild Ranger this whole time! :marriageanalogy:




 :biggrin:

Either that, or he's off the wagon?  Weird question, man.  Hate to say it, but I'm of the same position as eric#s.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 10, 2020, 05:47:25 AM

Well at least the smart people caught the joke

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on June 10, 2020, 06:03:23 AM

I'm in Orbert-land as far as socializing goes.  I'm still working from home, though I'm ready to start commuting a few days a week, if the trains would ever run more often on the line that I use. 

Just because we can socialize in groups of 10 or less, doesn't mean that we are.  But my daughter just had a playdate with one of her preschool friends' family.  3 kids, two adults.  Not a big deal.  She goes to my in-laws' house two days a week usually.  So we're slowly opening our social circle back up to a select few.  The kids may have a larger playdate this summer with a couple of other families. 

I appreciate Illinois' having a long-term reopening plan and taking 30 day increments between stages.  I just saw on the news this morning that most of the southern states are seeing rises in case counts and hospitalizations from reopening the entire state and pretending that everything is back to normal around Memorial Day.  It's really sad that you can't trust the general public to follow some basic rules about social distancing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on June 10, 2020, 06:25:35 AM

Finland lifted some restrictions on 1st of June, and during these 10 days there has not been any re-escalation. Before anyone comes up with "but it's not been 14 days yet", keep in mind the incubation period can be up to 14 days; most people show symptoms within 10 days from being exposed. Also, according to health officials, known quarantines have not led to further new cases in tracing, which is promising.

Right now it looks like we can completely lift the state of emergency at the end of June, and some restrictions will stay in place based on the infectious disease law.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 10, 2020, 06:36:04 AM

I'll be very interested to see how things go over the next month with cases picking up, or not. We're certainly doing more than we were a month ago. We've seen family a few times and my wife and kids have met with other moms and kids a couple times. I'm still working from home and will be for the foreseeable future. We're not going to be going to any hugely crowded areas or parties anytime soon, but plan on doing our normal summer camping and outdoor activities. We're not super social people in general, so it's not terribly different from normal life. Except that we're not going shopping as a family at all just me or my wife go.

I'm optimistic that things won't bounce back too hard. It's been 2 weeks since all the George Floyd protests happened here in Minneapolis and I haven't heard of any major increase in cases yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nachtmerrie on June 10, 2020, 12:16:48 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

100% bad. I'll try to stay out of the political part of the discussion because I have quite a strong opinion about it, but:

1. People are dying because of COVID
2. People in western countries will be dying because a lot of regular healthcare got suspended due to COVID being the only focus
3. People in emerging countries and third world countries are suffering because of losing their job and food shortages
4. The eonomy is suffering worldwide, lots of people losing their income
5. We are losing a lot of our freedom because of the lockdowns. While this should all be temporary we'll have to see how this plays out. I doubt we'll be at a concert or sportsvenue in the next year
6. Friends and families are divided because of the virus but also because of their opinion about the lockdowns and how they are being used to surpress people

7. The release of Haken's new album got postponed

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 10, 2020, 12:19:42 PM

Quote from: Nachtmerrie on June 10, 2020, 12:16:48 PM

7. The release of Haken's new album got postponed

Wait...so now you are arguing that Covid-19 is a good thing?  ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 10, 2020, 12:22:36 PM

That BBQ I was invited to apparently has blown up to a 40+ person party.  No thanks, not going now.  WTF people, let's ease out of the stay at home orders, not go wild.  I so would love to party hard with people again, but it's not the time to go all out like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 10, 2020, 12:26:21 PM

I had a five person poker game the other night. We played outside and used a bottle of sanitizer as the dealer button. We had a rule of no playing with your chips unless you were betting. Even at that I felt a little on edge.

40 people? That's just asking for trouble I think.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 10, 2020, 12:28:20 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 10, 2020, 12:19:42 PM

Quote from: Nachtmerrie on June 10, 2020, 12:16:48 PM

7. The release of Haken's new album got postponed

Wait...so now you are arguing that Covid-19 is a good thing?  ???

Quote from: Stadler on June 10, 2020, 10:29:08 AM

Please take it to P/R. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 10, 2020, 12:41:01 PM

Quote from: Nachtmerrie on June 10, 2020, 12:16:48 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

100% bad. I'll try to stay out of the political part of the discussion because I have quite a strong opinion about it, but:

1. People are dying because of COVID
2. People in western countries will be dying because a lot of regular healthcare got suspended due to COVID being the only focus
3. People in emerging countries and third world countries are suffering because of losing their job and food shortages
4. The eonomy is suffering worldwide, lots of people losing their income
5. We are losing a lot of our freedom because of the lockdowns. While this should all be temporary we'll have to see how this plays out. I doubt we'll be at a concert or sportsvenue in the next year
6. Friends and families are divided because of the virus but also because of their opinion about the lockdowns and how they are being used to surpress people

7. The release of Haken's new album got postponed

Okay I want to be clear I was parodying the WildRanger threads for everyone out of the know  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 10, 2020, 12:48:12 PM

I just wanted to say that I got Katt's joke right away.

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 09, 2020, 03:45:52 PM

I think this is really important to discuss and I'm really glad it was brought up.

I do agree that hanging out with friends and family means you are also hanging out with everyone they've been in contact with over the last 2 weeks.  However, I have 7 kids, and for their sanity and my own, I just can't keep them home any more.  So we have a rule that they need to ask their friends if anyone in their families has any sickness.  If the answer is no, then my kids can go hang out with them, if the answer is yes then they can't hand out until 2 weeks after everyone in the family is well.  I'm aware of the asymptomatic cases, but I've also decided that I just don't have the ability to worry about that.

But, my entire family still washes their hands after every time their out and we always wear masks and social distance when ever we patronize establishments.

That may sound a little (or a lot) lax to some of you, but because of my family dynamic, I can't do it any other way.  At least, not any more.

Your situation isn't totally unique, but with seven kids, it's firmly in the exceptional department.  And your kids are younger, too, so there's that.  What you're doing doesn't sound lax to me; it sounds like a reasonable way to go.  There's no single set of rules that will work for everyone.  You just gotta keep doing what you've always done; figure out the best way to do things based on what you know at the time, and hope for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Nachtmerrie on June 10, 2020, 12:59:03 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 10, 2020, 12:41:01 PM

Quote from: Nachtmerrie on June 10, 2020, 12:16:48 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

Is COVID-19 objectively good or bad? Why or why not? Lots of people have died and gotten sick, but we've seen a lot of people come together in good ways, too. What do you think?

100% bad. I'll try to stay out of the political part of the discussion because I have quite a strong opinion about it, but:

1. People are dying because of COVID
2. People in western countries will be dying because a lot of regular healthcare got suspended due to COVID being the only focus
3. People in emerging countries and third world countries are suffering because of losing their job and food shortages
4. The eonomy is suffering worldwide, lots of people losing their income
5. We are losing a lot of our freedom because of the lockdowns. While this should all be temporary we'll have to see how this plays out. I doubt we'll be at a concert or sportsvenue in the next year
6. Friends and families are divided because of the virus but also because of their opinion about the lockdowns and how they are being used to surpress people

7. The release of Haken's new album got postponed

Okay I want to be clear I was parodying the WildRanger threads for everyone out of the know  :lol

I totally missed that one :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 10, 2020, 02:52:25 PM

Quote from: Kattelox on June 10, 2020, 05:47:25 AM

Well at least the smart people caught the joke

Either that, or WindRanger hacked your account.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 10, 2020, 06:38:11 PM

This is hospital down the street from me:

https://i95rock.com/no-new-covid-patients-reported-at-waterbury-hospital-since-pandemic-began/

Quote

The Republican American has recently reported that Waterbury Hospital has hit the magic number of zero new Covid-19 patients as of this past Monday since the coronavirus pandemic began.

Many of Connecticut's hospitals are seeing a downward turn of Covid-19 patients, including St. Mary's in Waterbury, where cases have dropped 90%. Connecticut hit its peak on April 21, with 20,000 cases and over 1,400 deaths due to Covid-19.

That feels like a big sigh of relief. I'm still playing it safe for another month or so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 11, 2020, 09:13:03 AM

Quote from: YtseJam on June 09, 2020, 05:58:50 PM

How many of you have died from Coronavirus?

 :lol  Thankfully none yet.  All 9 of us are still kicking.

Quote from: lordxizor on June 09, 2020, 06:02:07 PM

I personally don't think it's lax at all. I think it's perfectly reasonable. The reality is that we need to find a way to live with Covid being around for now. I don't think stopping our entire lives and never going out except for absolute necessities is a reasonable way to live.

Quote from: Orbert on June 10, 2020, 12:48:12 PM

Your situation isn't totally unique, but with seven kids, it's firmly in the exceptional department.  And your kids are younger, too, so there's that.  What you're doing doesn't sound lax to me; it sounds like a reasonable way to go.  There's no single set of rules that will work for everyone.  You just gotta keep doing what you've always done; figure out the best way to do things based on what you know at the time, and hope for the best.

Thanks guys  :tup, I'm glad I'm not completely off my rocker.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 15, 2020, 10:33:47 PM

My younger sister was selected for a study.  Basically, they're testing a bunch of people who aren't showing symptoms, period.  She lives in Oregon, and they'd still like to know more about who's got it and who's affected and how much, so the more people they test, the more they learn.  They'd like a better idea what percentage of people who aren't showing symptoms are actually carriers but asymptomatic.  She posts about this on Facebook.

My older sister says she hopes it comes out negative.  I said No, in this case, we hope it comes out positive.  She's not showing symptoms.  If it turns out that she has it, then she's asymptomatic; this is good news.  She is not affected by it, and never will be.

My older sister says it's both good and bad, because if you have it, you could still pass it.  The scientists still aren't sure whether asympomatic people can pass it on, but last I heard, the evidence was leaning toward No.  So she still has to wear a mask to prevent spreading it.  That's literally nothing; we're all supposed to be doing that anyway.  Either way, that's a tiny negative weighed against what I see as a huge positive.  The question is not "In general, would you rather have the virus or not?"  The question is "Would you rather find out that you're immune to it, or continue wondering if you'll eventually get it and maybe die?"

I would rather find out that I have it.  That means that I'm asymptomatic, and because I've been in lockdown with my family and none of us have shown any symptoms, it means that we all are.  None of us ever have to worry it again, because we already have it know it doesn't affect us.  The peace of mind knowing this, as opposed to wondering every damned day if we'll get it and die, is invaluable.  We still have to buy groceries.  We still interact with some others, to a very limited extent, therefore the chances of being exposed are nonzero.  And unless/until there's a vaccine, there's always the chance.

So would you rather live in fear every damned day that you could catch this thing and die, or would you rather know right now that you're immune?  This really does seem a no-brainer to me.  What am I missing?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 16, 2020, 01:49:58 AM

My general practitioner has decided to let me test for covid antibodies, will be interesting to see if I've had it. As I mentioned a while back I was ill, with two weeks of fever and some minor odd lung/taste issues.

She also explained some of the pitfalls of the current knowledge and test results (which reflects what my boss is telling me, who is a supervisor for molecular diagnostics in our hospital).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 16, 2020, 04:16:06 AM

Quote from: Orbert on June 15, 2020, 10:33:47 PM

If it turns out that she has it, then she's asymptomatic; this is good news.  She is not affected by it, and never will be.

I'm not sure it's been established that this is like chicken pox where, if you get it once, you're now permanently immune.

Quote from: Orbert on June 15, 2020, 10:33:47 PM

The scientists still aren't sure whether asymptomatic people can pass it on, but last I heard, the evidence was leaning toward No.

I've literally never heard this to be the case.  Everything I've seen/read since the beginning of the outbreak is the exact opposite.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 16, 2020, 05:40:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on June 16, 2020, 04:16:06 AM

Quote from: Orbert on June 15, 2020, 10:33:47 PM

If it turns out that she has it, then she's asymptomatic; this is good news.  She is not affected by it, and never will be.

I'm not sure it's been established that this is like chicken pox where, if you get it once, you're now permanently immune.

That has not been established. It is unclear how long your immune system will retain its "memory". But based on similar viruses it can be for years or decades. But this will require years of monitoring to really know (unless it wanes quickly).

Furthermore, it is not clear how this virus will evolve over time. Mutation rate is lower than, say, influenza. But under selective pressure (immunity on a large scale), it remains to be seen how it will develop.

Quote from: jingle.boy on June 16, 2020, 04:16:06 AM

Quote from: Orbert on June 15, 2020, 10:33:47 PM

The scientists still aren't sure whether asymptomatic people can pass it on, but last I heard, the evidence was leaning toward No.

I've literally never heard this to be the case.  Everything I've seen/read since the beginning of the outbreak is the exact opposite.

I personally think this may be a bit of a case of it "can it occur" (yes) vs "can it easily occur"? (no?). There are studies showing it is possible for asymptomatic carries to transmit. However, transmission seems likely to predominantly occur through coughing/sneezing/aerisol from symptomatic carriers, also based on studies. And symptomatic can offcourse mean a very mild cold or sore throat, without being what people generally define as being ill.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 07:56:56 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on June 16, 2020, 05:40:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on June 16, 2020, 04:16:06 AM

Quote from: Orbert on June 15, 2020, 10:33:47 PM

The scientists still aren't sure whether asymptomatic people can pass it on, but last I heard, the evidence was leaning toward No.

I've literally never heard this to be the case.  Everything I've seen/read since the beginning of the outbreak is the exact opposite.

I personally think this may be a bit of a case of it "can it occur" (yes) vs "can it easily occur"? (no?). There are studies showing it is possible for asymptomatic carries to transmit. However, transmission seems likely to predominantly occur through coughing/sneezing/aerisol from symptomatic carriers, also based on studies. And symptomatic can offcourse mean a very mild cold or sore throat, without being what people generally define as being ill.

I believe the CDC recently stated they believe asymptomatic people are not likely spreading it.  However, doesn't mean they can't, but it seems more data is showing transmission is usually through personal close contact from someone actively sick. 

What is also interesting as we approach two weeks from the first protests, is that rates are not spiking here locally.  The data is showing a slowdown in NJ/NY area which was hit the hardest.  I kind of assumed we'd see more cases, and we aren't which is a great sign that maybe this summer won't be so bad, although I know we are all worried about what comes this fall.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

Their are plenty of States where the infection rates are rising and not falling. Texas and California come to mind.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 08:24:13 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

That sounds familiar, and is probably what I remember reading.  I latched onto what seemed to be relatively good news and forgot that it was backtracked.  There's so fucking much "news" that it's hard to keep track.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 16, 2020, 08:25:07 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

It's crap like this that makes me not trust the WHO or the CDC or any other so-called experts. It just seems like they're saying stuff for the sake of saying stuff half the time. It's clear that they know very little and are doing a lot of speculating. Of course, they're continually learning more all the time, but frankly, I don't trust anything anyone is saying or any of the numbers that are being published.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 16, 2020, 08:28:27 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 16, 2020, 08:25:07 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

It's crap like this that makes me not trust the WHO or the CDC or any other so-called experts. It just seems like they're saying stuff for the sake of saying stuff half the time. It's clear that they know very little and are doing a lot of speculating. Of course, they're continually learning more all the time, but frankly, I don't trust anything anyone is saying or any of the numbers that are being published.

Well that's pretty silly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 08:31:27 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

Their are plenty of States where the infection rates are rising and not falling. Texas and California come to mind.

Ah thanks for clearing that up, I felt that "news" was a week or two ago and I chalked it up to "we don't know much about this still"

As for other states, was talking to my college friend last night in Texas and he was saying how they are having a rise in cases from opening too early.  I think some of it is that the virus spread to the south a bit later after it his the north east/west so there was a bit of delay and they shut down later and opened earlier than NJ for example and it didn't work out as well.  Regardless, if the hospital rates aren't spiking then it's not the end all be all stat of just infections.  (They might be, I haven't seen the data)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 16, 2020, 09:08:14 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 16, 2020, 08:25:07 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

It's crap like this that makes me not trust the WHO or the CDC or any other so-called experts. It just seems like they're saying stuff for the sake of saying stuff half the time. It's clear that they know very little and are doing a lot of speculating. Of course, they're continually learning more all the time, but frankly, I don't trust anything anyone is saying or any of the numbers that are being published.

My advice is to follow the lead of the actual guidelines, not the information given in live sessions by individuals. The WHO did not put out an official statement and did not adjust their actual guidelines from what I gather, it was Van Kerkhove who said something along the lines of asymptomatic carriers not being the driving force, in context of several smaller studies. As someone who has been involved in several studies that reached the media (cancer studies), I can say it is always best to read the actual official proof-read statements or publications, and not media reports on live discussions/Q&A sessions. Here is the WHO overview:https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019 (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019). Not saying the WHO cannot be wrong or something, but in general you will see that many of the current unknowns/limitations are emphasised or mentioned.

Anyways, her statement afterwards:

Quote

“I was responding to a question at the press conference. I wasn’t stating a policy of WHO or anything like that. I was just trying to articulate what we know,” she said on a live Q&A streamed across multiple social media platforms. “And in that, I used the phrase ‘very rare,’ and I think that that’s misunderstanding to state that asymptomatic transmission globally is very rare. I was referring to a small subset of studies.”

Same kind of goes for the CDC controversy I commented on a while back. They (poorly) altered a headline for restructuring their info page, but did not change the actual info in their guidelines/factsheet, and the media focused on that (poor) headline change.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 09:39:11 AM

I think it makes perfect sense to trust the WHO and the CDC, which are entirely populated by scientists who've dedicated their lives to this stuff.

What I don't trust is the media pouncing on every tidbit of information and going crazy with it.  That's basically what ErHaO is saying, but not everybody has time to read full statements by these organizations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 09:40:09 AM

I think it's important to remember that there's more that we don't know than what we do know about this strain so I agree about being cautious with information coming from the WHO and CDC. In fact, I would look at Dr. Olsterholm or Dr. Fauci for more  reliable information (IMO).

Also, I listen to a sports radio station out of Dallas and they are updating daily on the virus and Dallas hospitalizations are on the rise. Dallas never flattened the curve and are experiencing over 300 new cases per day for 6 straight days.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 16, 2020, 09:42:04 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

Their are plenty of States where the infection rates are rising and not falling. Texas and California come to mind.

I think it's only fair to point out that there are more states where the infection rates are falling or holding firm (https://projects.propublica.org/reopening-america/).

I think this is important, because it refutes that "opening" is the bad part of the equation; somehow, Connecticut and New York (by way of example) are doing something that perhaps Texas and California are not. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2020, 10:16:19 AM

^That link is perhaps THE most helpful thing I have seen since this all began.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 16, 2020, 10:30:30 AM

What I find promising is that Minnesota is down despite a week and a half of huge protests and riots over George Floyd starting three weeks ago. So clearly opening up alone isn't causing cases to go up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 10:56:30 AM

I find that promising, and also a bit confusing.  I mean, we all "knew" that if thousands of people decided to go out and mingle (or protest, or riot, as the case may be) without masks and social distancing, then there would be a spike in cases.  But that hasn't happened.

So what's going on?  Without safeguards, it makes sense that the virus would be spreading all over, infecting tons more people.  But only if the virus is live and being passed around.  You could still have 1000 people, none of whom have the virus, and after spending all that time together... yep, none of them have the virus.  It still needs to be present in the first place to be spread.

Maybe this virus is extremely contagious and deadly, but only among certain people, based on their DNA, physiology, whatever, and the first wave already hit most of them.  Most of the rest of us are relatively resistant to it, same as most other viruses.

Shit... the mountains of what we don't know about this are staggering.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 11:00:32 AM

Yea, I agree, it's all just very confusing.  Also consider being outside in the summer heat playing a role too.  Who knows, and that's always been the scary part.  We just don't know.

Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2020, 10:16:19 AM

^That link is perhaps THE most helpful thing I have seen since this all began.

Yea, that link was pretty cool

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 16, 2020, 11:04:44 AM

So, I was alone and working out in the yard this weekend and got poison ivy.  For some reason I felt this was relevant in this thread.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 11:05:57 AM

Did it spread to your private parts yet?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 16, 2020, 11:06:37 AM

Quote from: Dadler on June 16, 2020, 11:04:44 AM

So, I was alone and working out in the yard this weekend and got poison ivy.  For some reason I felt this was relevant in this thread.  :)

....were you wearing a mask?

Wouldn't have happened if you had been social distancing from Poison Ivy. And I'm capitalizing that because I assume you're talking about the sexy red head from Batman comics and not the plant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 16, 2020, 11:11:22 AM

I have gotten the ivy on my dick and in my lungs (separate occasions). Both are terrible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on June 16, 2020, 11:12:29 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 16, 2020, 11:11:22 AM

I have gotten the ivy on my dick and in my lungs (separate occasions). Both are terrible.

Very important parenthetical disclaimer.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2020, 11:26:13 AM

We don't have that here.  We have poison oak (the trails here are INFESTED right now, so you really have to watch where you are going if out on a hike), but thankfully, I've never had it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 11:48:30 AM

Quote from: Stadler on June 16, 2020, 09:42:04 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

Their are plenty of States where the infection rates are rising and not falling. Texas and California come to mind.

I think it's only fair to point out that there are more states where the infection rates are falling or holding firm (https://projects.propublica.org/reopening-america/).

I think this is important, because it refutes that "opening" is the bad part of the equation; somehow, Connecticut and New York (by way of example) are doing something that perhaps Texas and California are not.

This is an excellent website that I had not known about - thanks for the link!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 16, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

Saw a caption on the news that New Zealand is no longer COVID-free (after their last known case cleared up last week).  Two travellers from London brought it in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 16, 2020, 01:21:55 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 11:05:57 AM

Did it spread to your private parts yet?  :lol

HA!   I've had it there too (on a separate occasion from Chino); not for the faint of heart.

You'd think I would have sussed out all the details as to my reaction to it, but I either get it a little bit - right now I have what look like three little pimples on my forearm - or I get it REALLY bad (last time I got it, last year, my arms were covered from wrist to bicep, some blisters the size of grapes).   I've been in the hospital for it before.  But there's no clear rhyme or reason; I can only guess that it's the difference between poison ivy, poison sumac, or poison oak. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 01:25:16 PM

Damn, I've only gotten poison ivy once when I was young and it was such a disaster as I could not stop scratching and spreading it to everywhere on my body which made it all last much longer than it needed to.  Usually if I'm outside rubbing against shrubs or in the woods, I'll wash my arms/legs as soon as I get in.  I even took a piss in the woods in Connecticut on the side of the road last year and rubbed my arms with bottled water because I was so worried I might have gotten too close to the poison ivy in the woods and I was getting all paranoid that it would ruin my weekend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 16, 2020, 02:06:38 PM

I find it lol-worthy that Illinois's cases have been going down but all the rubes down here want to complain about how Pritzker is ruining the state which I mean yeah you can make that argument but it's not because of his means of handling the COVID pandemic hahaha

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on June 16, 2020, 04:01:42 PM

Just had a long chat with a bartender friend of mine on the imminent opening of the place she works at. Seems a few have already jumped the gun in our area, and are bending the rules as much as humanely possible. The guidelines for restaurant/bar opening are worded like shit, with most of the points having the word 'should' in them, so it seems the owners are taking this as suggested guidelines and choosing to ignore them. Seems there's no concern for the employees, and one place that she visited to see what was happening was an absolute shit show of vectors and exposure. Really a shame cause a lot of places are doing it right to make what money they can, and I feel some of the shittier owners are gonna get the plugs pulled on everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 05:16:52 PM

Things are opening back up here in Illinois.  Bars and restaurants can have outdoor seating, as long as you keep six feet between the tables.  As most of you know, I play in a band, and one of the outdoor venues around here has offerred us our choice of three dates.

There is still risk, of course.  But the stage is separated from the "floor" by several feet.  People cannot get within six or eight feet of us.

(https://i.imgur.com/sE6jOGv.jpg)

I am so dying to get back out and gig that I... okay, I'm not willing to just risk my life to play, but if the risk is minimal, if all reasonable safeguards are in place, that's about as good as we're gonna get right now.

Take the gig?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 16, 2020, 05:24:43 PM

Take it

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 05:26:10 PM

When is it?  I'd imagine it's not tomorrow, so I would say take it.  You probably have some time to monitor if things get worse, but honestly, it's outdoors and if people give some distance and have masks, it's probably fairly safe.  I think many would really enjoy some live music and it seems like you'd enjoy playing it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 05:30:32 PM

The three dates are mid-August and two in September.  The drummer and I are both smartasses so we said we'd take all three, and so far we're the only ones who've replied.  Fuck yeah I would enjoy playing it.  We haven't played since February, right before the boom came down.  Wow, it's only been four months.  It seems like it's been a lot longer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 16, 2020, 05:40:07 PM

It does seem like forever

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2020, 06:02:23 PM

Quote from: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 05:16:52 PM

Take the gig?

Using all your own gear without anyone else touching it?  ESPECIALLY microphones?  And nobody sharing microphones?  Yeah, I'd take it under those circumstances.  If not, no way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on June 16, 2020, 06:06:53 PM

But what will you do regarding groupies? ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 16, 2020, 06:38:49 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on June 16, 2020, 06:06:53 PM

But what will you do regarding groupies? ;)

Make them sign waivers before being allowed backstage.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on June 16, 2020, 06:44:25 PM

"Ladies, we are practicing social distancing, but kneeling is allowed..."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 08:43:25 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2020, 06:02:23 PM

Quote from: Orbert on June 16, 2020, 05:16:52 PM

Take the gig?

Using all your own gear without anyone else touching it?  ESPECIALLY microphones?  And nobody sharing microphones?  Yeah, I'd take it under those circumstances.  If not, no way.

All our gear, and we haul it all ourselves (much to our dismay, though in this case maybe not).

So far, everyone has responded in the affirmative except one of our singers.  She has a variety of health issues and a compromised immune system as it is, and wasn't really into the County Fair gig, back before it was cancelled.  But she admitted that she'd probably do the gig, even if it scared her to death to do it.  Then it was cancelled anyway.  This will actually be a bit safer for her, and all of us, so I'm hoping.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Progmetty on June 16, 2020, 11:22:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on June 16, 2020, 09:42:04 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 16, 2020, 08:18:23 AM

It was the WHO that made the statement that asymptomatic people are likely not pass it on but that was quickly refuted by Dr. Fauci and the WHO backtracked their statement.

Their are plenty of States where the infection rates are rising and not falling. Texas and California come to mind.

I think it's only fair to point out that there are more states where the infection rates are falling or holding firm (https://projects.propublica.org/reopening-america/).

I think this is important, because it refutes that "opening" is the bad part of the equation; somehow, Connecticut and New York (by way of example) are doing something that perhaps Texas and California are not.

Does that take size into account?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 17, 2020, 07:47:12 AM

I'm not sure how to answer that, becuase I don't know what you mean by "size".   There are per capita numbers in there, so it accounts for population.   As for area or population density, no, but there doesn't seem to be clear trend there; California (big and dense) and Texas (BIG and not as dense) are on the upswing, but New York (big, some density) and Connecticut (small but dense) are on the down swing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 17, 2020, 08:21:40 AM

I think this shows just how little we truly understand about this virus.  It is behaving in ways we didn't really expect.  Many people and experts (not all) said that we would probably see a dramatic decline in numbers once the weather got warmer.  I haven't seen that in my state at all, and it looks like we're headed to a new peak.

What all this has solidified for me more than anything, is that China and their numbers can't be trusted.  I wouldn't be surprised if their infections and deaths are 3 times what they are here in the US.  That's just a guess though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 17, 2020, 08:32:00 AM

Maybe it's just me, but I never once expected numbers to die down with warm weather - warm temperatures won't do anything to kill off the virus, and months of getting antsy from restrictions and lockdown + summer arriving, people are gonna want to go to parties, cookouts, beaches, festivals, etc. If anything I expected this to happen because human nature is to say "fuck this" after a few weeks of being told to stay home in your underpants, now people are gonna go hardcore with partying

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on June 17, 2020, 08:54:17 AM

^
Yes to all of that.

Add in the disregard of way too many in not wearing masks and taking the other common sense precautions, and we're seeing the expected upticks.  'Don't want to wear a mask in a restaurant?  Fine....mind if I light up a cigar next to you?'

Wish there was an easily available site to find out the number of hospitalizations.  Cases are going to go up, partially due to more testing.  ICU ward numbers are the ones to watch for.

Brazil and Mexico recorded deaths continue at their high rate. India just went up 2000 yesterday from deaths in March and April that hit the books.  For the many events we had planned this year, most were cancelled with refunds, some are simply 'wishful thinking' for August and later, mainly to avoid refunding.  No dice.  Next year, perhaps, the wife and I will again see an event or two, as well as visit a restaurant.  Not now, because too many are being reckless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 17, 2020, 09:10:52 AM

I think the idea that it would die down once the weather got warmer is because that's what the flu and colds do.  And maybe this virus will too eventually.  Here's a good video on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ5hUaOu2u0

And not to burst anyone's bubble, but it's likely this will last two years before we gain herd immunity or the virus  mutates to a much less lethal form.  I'm basing this on the Spanish Flu pandemic and I could be entirely wrong, and I hope I am.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 17, 2020, 10:13:22 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 17, 2020, 08:21:40 AM

I think this shows just how little we truly understand about this virus.  It is behaving in ways we didn't really expect.  Many people and experts (not all) said that we would probably see a dramatic decline in numbers once the weather got warmer.  I haven't seen that in my state at all, and it looks like we're headed to a new peak.

What all this has solidified for me more than anything, is that China and their numbers can't be trusted.  I wouldn't be surprised if their infections and deaths are 3 times what they are here in the US.  That's just a guess though.

I think the experts are the ones that are the most aware of their lack of knowledge and yes, stating that we know little is an understatement.

I would like to add it is a global crisis, so the variations between areas should not be underestimated. Something that is likely or even determined for a certain area/population may be totally different for another. Expert from country Y may be right based on the data from country Y, but when those findings of country Y are reported to country X, they may not apply there at all.

For example, for influenza: flu outbreaks tend to happen in the winter, during dry cold periods in many areas. However, in tropical areas where the climate is never really that cold or dry, influenza seems to thrive during the most humid/rainy periods. Furthermore, outbreaks in tropical areas happen during times significantly more warm and humid than the summers of areas where the outbreaks do not occur. (a scientific publication on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23505366/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23505366/)). This contradiction is/was not understood (the "not understood part" is from what I recall from my studies more than 6-7 years ago though, I am most definitely not up to date, maybe they have elucidated some things).




Also yes, I agree, I personally am also very skeptical from the data China has provided the world. Unfortunately their track record is quite bad on this front.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on June 19, 2020, 04:10:00 PM

Second week into the PGA Tour restarting competition, Nick Watney tests positive for Covid-19

https://www.pgatour.com/company/2020/06/18/pga-tour-statement-nick-watney-wd-rbc-heritage-coronavirus-covid-19.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on June 19, 2020, 05:17:07 PM

Quote from: Podaar on June 19, 2020, 04:10:00 PM

Second week into the PGA Tour restarting competition, Nick Watney tests positive for Covid-19

https://www.pgatour.com/company/2020/06/18/pga-tour-statement-nick-watney-wd-rbc-heritage-coronavirus-covid-19.html

I'm sorry this guy has it, but I have to laugh because all I heard from the fucking golf weenies during the shutdown was how they should be allowed to play golf. They all sounded like pompous fucking asses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 21, 2020, 07:43:00 AM

I was bummed to hear that when movie theaters open up in a few weeks that they will require masks. AMC originally wasn't going to but caved to pressure to add a requirement. I would love to go see a movie again, but have no desire to do so while wearing a mask the whole time. I can see requiring a mask when you walk through the lobby and before taking your seat, but they're already forcing distance between people in the theater so the mask seems redundant. Oh well. No Tenet or any other summer movies for me I guess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on June 21, 2020, 07:45:31 AM

I think the fact that you're indoors and the AC is blowing droplets all over the place plays into it.
Are they not serving popcorn? I mean, it would seem easy enough to get around a mask on your face the entire time the movie is running. Slip it off your nose, or completely down once the lights go off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 21, 2020, 08:04:03 AM

Drive in theater.  That's a fun night.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 21, 2020, 02:01:38 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on June 21, 2020, 07:45:31 AM

I think the fact that you're indoors and the AC is blowing droplets all over the place plays into it.
Are they not serving popcorn? I mean, it would seem easy enough to get around a mask on your face the entire time the movie is running. Slip it off your nose, or completely down once the lights go off.

Sure, it would be easy enough to just wear one on the way in and then just slip it most of the way off for the movie. Clearly you can't eat any of their overpriced snacks without momentarily taking it off, so it's easy enough to have a legit excuse for it being off. But I'd just rather not go.

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 21, 2020, 08:04:03 AM

Drive in theater.  That's a fun night.

Yeah, I'd do that if there was one close to me.

Edit: Actually just read that my local theater has put up a large screen on the side of their building and is showing classic movies. I'd consider this if they start showing new releases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 22, 2020, 08:11:54 AM

My job has only gotten busier through the pandemic. Back at the end of March there were 2-3 days in which almost nobody was out on the roads. Then the sun broke sometime that week, the warm weather finally started, and since April it's basically been business as usual here. Thought we'd get caught up in April and May, and we're still slammed with work. It's a good problem to have, but damn it, I really thought this was finally gonna be the break we needed to catch up  :facepalm: :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 22, 2020, 09:53:39 PM

Things are getting bad in a less populated county here in WA. Coming from the governor, there will be a requirement that all businesses refuse to serve customers unless they're wearing a mask. I've never seen a directive such as this enacted in any county/state before this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on June 23, 2020, 01:00:04 AM

One thing I'm seeing with this virus is once the peak has passed it seems to slowly go away.  None of the countries coming out of lockdown are reporting new surges (the odd small spike, but nothing to say as second wave is going to start).  It seems to arrive, cause mayhem (how much mayhem depends on how quickly the county reacts), peak then gradually leave.  I'm not from the US but it seem New York is following that pattern(?).  Europe has been reducing lockdown restrictions over the past couple of weeks and things seem OK - considering we were the epicentre (now South america) of the virus in May.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on June 23, 2020, 01:06:07 AM

It also varies from region to region; in Italy we're basically "almost free", but Lombardy, a region with high density population and also the city of Milan (second by size in Italy and equally important as Rome, the capital), the levels are still high. Not dangerously high, but it makes it look like Milan and Lombardy will have a sloooooow coming out of the infections. Luckily I work from home, I can't believe it's since mid-March that I don't set foot in Milan...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 23, 2020, 05:20:51 AM

Yeah, it is odd in a way the way it's behaving. Here in Minnesota, things are pretty much completely open with some restrictions. I'd say a little more than half of people wear masks in the more populated areas, well less than half in rural areas. We had the huge protests a month ago. Testing is up and cases are on a slow and steady decline. Of course that's good news, but I just find it a little odd. I would have expected at least a slight uptick due to things opening and maybe even a huge spike due to the protests, but we haven't seen that. Hopefully that means this thing is dying out, but we're probably not that lucky.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on June 23, 2020, 06:07:31 AM

From what I have read there are as many states i the US where covid is going up as there are where covid is going down.

Also in Germany you have some local outbreaks going on. Biggest is probably the meat industry of about 7000 employees where some 1500 got infected now. At first they tried to contain just the plant and the employees but now the whole town of a Gütersloh gets locked down.

Gällivare in the north of Sweden also has a major outbreak now.

This is not over.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 23, 2020, 06:11:27 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on June 23, 2020, 06:07:31 AM

From what I have read there are as many states i the US where covid is going up as there are where covid is going down.

That's because of where the epicenters were. NY had the worst of it (west coast got hit too) and got it early because so many people from around the world end up there. So naturally, it spread through New England and the other surrounding states pretty quickly. The population density is very high in that part of the country and there's a lot of public transport. Once everything started getting locked down, it took some time for the virus to reach its way into the Central and Southern US. The states that were the first to see the virus are now on the decline, and the other parts of the country are now where those states were 6-7 weeks ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 23, 2020, 08:27:05 AM

Yea, the natural spread of the virus makes sense that the less populated and accessible spots get hit later, which we are kind of seeing now.  However, I keep hearing from people and even just saw a headline (it was for a video and I'm not watching that right now) that says the virus may be weakening.  But one thing I feel like we are seeing is that the infections are still going up, but daily deaths seem to be fairly stable.  That could be a sign the virus is weakening, but also, I wonder, if maybe the virus just kind of killed the most vulnerable people in that early March/April wave that devastated nursing homes (very vulnerable people).  Just kind of thinking aloud about this, because it's something that's been on my mind as things start to open back up here in NJ (most people I saw on the road commuting this morning since beginning of March). 

Also some college teams are back on campus beginning training for the fall football season and they are doing testing and finding a lot of players are testing positive but are asymptomatic.  Makes me think there won't be a football season, but also makes me wonder how many people truly have been exposed and will continue to be exposed and not know it. Some other headline said only 90-95% have been exposed.  Who knows.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 23, 2020, 09:32:37 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 23, 2020, 08:27:05 AM

But one thing I feel like we are seeing is that the infections are still going up, but daily deaths seem to be fairly stable. 

I don't think infections are going up....the number of reported infections are but judging from all the info we have on this virus.......there have been a heck of a lot of people who have had it and they'd just not been tested. More tests....more infection numbers. Which dilutes the lethality of the virus as well. Highly contagious, but perhaps not as deadly to the 'average' person who gets infected

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on June 23, 2020, 09:38:57 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 23, 2020, 09:32:37 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 23, 2020, 08:27:05 AM

But one thing I feel like we are seeing is that the infections are still going up, but daily deaths seem to be fairly stable. 

I don't think infections are going up....the number of reported infections are but judging from all the info we have on this virus.......there have been a heck of a lot of people who have had it and they'd just not been tested. More tests....more infection numbers. Which dilutes the lethality of the virus as well. Highly contagious, but perhaps not as deadly to the 'average' person who gets infected

I don't necessarily agree with this "more tests = more cases" belief.  It is true to an extent, but there are definitely areas of the country where they are now experiencing what some of us in larger metropolitan areas experienced in April, where it was rapid, rapid spread.  Illinois is testing well over 20,000 people per day and the number of positive cases is generally declining.

If it were truly "increased testing = increases cases," then it would be going up EVERYWHERE, now that testing has increased, and it hasn't.  The hot spots from April seem to be doing better, and new hot spots are appearing as the virus, and people, have traveled.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 23, 2020, 09:49:08 AM

Quote from: Grappler on June 23, 2020, 09:38:57 AM

I don't necessarily agree with this "more tests = more cases" belief.  It is true to an extent, but there are definitely areas of the country where they are now experiencing what some of us in larger metropolitan areas experienced in April, where it was rapid, rapid spread.  Illinois is testing well over 20,000 people per day and the number of positive cases is generally declining.

If it were truly "increased testing = increases cases," then it would be going up EVERYWHERE, now that testing has increased, and it hasn't.  The hot spots from April seem to be doing better, and new hot spots are appearing as the virus, and people, have traveled.

I get what you are saying, Grap, but I think you are mistaken in how you are looking at it.  You are right about some of those areas declining and doing better.  No dispute.  But the bolded is not quite correct.  Different areas are doing better than others, for a variety of different reasons.  Some of those reasons are easy to understand.  Some are not.  But we there is MUCH more testing going on across the entire country.  When you look at that collective group, more testing detects cases among the entire population that would otherwise have been undetected.  There are plenty of those positive cases where the symptoms do not follow the norm or where they are mild enough in a given person that the person in question is able to, for the most part, treat it like a normal cold or flu, and wouldn't have even been tested had testing not become as available as it is now.  So, again, when we look at the entire population, increased testing absolutely does detect more cases than would have otherwise been possible, notwithstanding that some regions are normalizing or declining in cases.

Now, as far as people extrapolating that out to, "well, it's just the increased testing that is showing the increase.  There isn't an actual increase, so we're all fine, and this is clearly almost over," I think that is clearly an incorrect conclusion to draw from the data.  And I think far too many people do extrapolate a similar type of conclusion, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 23, 2020, 10:03:02 AM

Well, for example the college athletes, they are being tested because they are trying to get back to playing the sport.  They aren't being tested because they are sick. (Similar just came out today in the tennis world https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/tennis/novak-djokovic-coronavirus-adria-tour-spt-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/tennis/novak-djokovic-coronavirus-adria-tour-spt-intl/index.html))  So in some ways, yes, the number will go up just due to testing alone being available and being used aggressively.  That doesn't explain the overall picture though, there's many reasons infections are still going up and more available testing is only one of them. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on June 23, 2020, 10:10:45 AM

Yes, I know that there are many variables.  I am just very, very tired of the idea that more testing = more cases and as a result, the virus isn't continuing to spread itself around.  That's all I meant by it.   In some areas, it may be true.  In some, it may not be.  It's not a one-size, fits all scenario. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 23, 2020, 10:29:20 AM

Here's a good video from a trauma surgeon documenting her experience through 10 weeks of the pandemic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfOa3cvwyPg

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on June 23, 2020, 10:54:18 AM

Fauci “cautiously optimistic” a vaccine will be available by end of year.

https://apnews.com/a36ac8c2b3edf7f9c41f850e945c32e8?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 23, 2020, 09:42:34 PM

Masks mandatory throughout WA starting Friday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 23, 2020, 10:53:45 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on June 23, 2020, 09:42:34 PM

Masks mandatory throughout WA starting Friday.

There is no reason masks shouldn’t be a Federal mandate right now. It’s simple to do and effective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 23, 2020, 11:13:53 PM

Seeing that through for conversation's sake (assuming that could be even mandated at the federal level)... how do you make it enforceable? Or do you bother? We don't like the police these days; do we want them driving around looking for violators? Are we going to rely on social media shaming?

I am happy to say when i go to the store for work (which I do every 2-3 days) I see mask wearing at about 85-90%. But when people are talking to their neighbors while their kids play, or at a friend's house for dinner, they just aren't going to wear masks because the governor says it's now mandatory.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 24, 2020, 05:28:11 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 23, 2020, 10:53:45 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on June 23, 2020, 09:42:34 PM

Masks mandatory throughout WA starting Friday.

There is no reason masks shouldn’t be a Federal mandate right now. It’s simple to do and effective.

That'd require having to admit it's not a hoax and that doctors and those pesky scientists were right all along. It really boggles my mind at this point.

Quote from: Cool Chris on June 23, 2020, 11:13:53 PM

Seeing that through for conversation's sake (assuming that could be even mandated at the federal level)... how do you make it enforceable?

You revoke the business licenses of any business owner who's willingly letting people in without masks.

I say willingly in the sense that if some asshole forces his/her way into the establishment like the guy below, the owner is not at fault.
(https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/DfJiemuQHB7qiNuCDRVSUp7CiqE=/415x322/top/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tronc/CIKHLJTMNZCDLNPDRG2ARMCZVQ.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:06:56 AM

Revoking someone's business license for choosing to not make everyone wear a mask is ridiculous imo

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 24, 2020, 06:27:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:06:56 AM

Revoking someone's business license for choosing to not make everyone wear a mask is ridiculous imo

If it was a federally mandated requirement, tough shit. It's a public health crisis and it's not a complicated ask.


You revoke a bar's liquor license if they allow smoking or underage people inside in the name of public health.
You revoke a doctor's license to practice if they're floating narcotics to patients in exchange for kickbacks in the name of public health.
You revoke an electrician's license if they don't follow codes and get permits in the name of public health.
You revoke a trucker's trucking license for one of a million reasons in the name of public health.

Revoking one's ability to operate their business for violations happens every single day in this country. This would be no different.

Don't take this post to mean that I want this. The question was "how do you make it enforceable", and that's how you'd have to do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 06:32:23 AM

To me we're past the point of mandating masks in states with declining cases. If cases are going down with reopening and no mask mandate, it's seems like an overreach to add a mandate now. Where does it end? Masks will always reduce cases of illnesses and prevent deaths, this is nothing unique to Covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:40:37 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 24, 2020, 06:27:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:06:56 AM

Revoking someone's business license for choosing to not make everyone wear a mask is ridiculous imo

If it was a federally mandated requirement, tough shit. It's a public health crisis and it's not a complicated ask.


You revoke a bar's liquor license if they allow smoking or underage people inside in the name of public health.
You revoke a doctor's license to practice if they're floating narcotics to patients in exchange for kickbacks in the name of public health.
You revoke an electrician's license if they don't follow codes and get permits in the name of public health.
You revoke a trucker's trucking license for one of a million reasons in the name of public health.

Revoking one's ability to operate their business for violations happens every single day in this country. This would be no different.

Don't take this post to mean that I want this. The question was "how do you make it enforceable", and that's how you'd have to do it.

Yeah I still think it's crap, sorry. Maybe in a big city, okay, you have hundreds of thousands, millions of people. Out here in rural America, that's just bullshit. People come in here without masks all the time and we're fine. Business owner doesn't deserve to be punished for not wanting to enforce wearing masks, especially small business owners. Chino, serious question, have you ever run a business? It's easy to say "tough shit" when you're not wearing someone else's shoes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 06:41:45 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:40:37 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 24, 2020, 06:27:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:06:56 AM

Revoking someone's business license for choosing to not make everyone wear a mask is ridiculous imo

If it was a federally mandated requirement, tough shit. It's a public health crisis and it's not a complicated ask.


You revoke a bar's liquor license if they allow smoking or underage people inside in the name of public health.
You revoke a doctor's license to practice if they're floating narcotics to patients in exchange for kickbacks in the name of public health.
You revoke an electrician's license if they don't follow codes and get permits in the name of public health.
You revoke a trucker's trucking license for one of a million reasons in the name of public health.

Revoking one's ability to operate their business for violations happens every single day in this country. This would be no different.

Don't take this post to mean that I want this. The question was "how do you make it enforceable", and that's how you'd have to do it.

Yeah I still think it's crap, sorry. Maybe in a big city, okay, you have hundreds of thousands, millions of people. Out here in rural America, that's just bullshit. People come in here without masks all the time and we're fine. Chino, serious question, have you ever run a business?

I agree this should be a city or county decision, not state-wide and certainly not national.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 24, 2020, 06:48:17 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:40:37 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 24, 2020, 06:27:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:06:56 AM

Revoking someone's business license for choosing to not make everyone wear a mask is ridiculous imo

If it was a federally mandated requirement, tough shit. It's a public health crisis and it's not a complicated ask.


You revoke a bar's liquor license if they allow smoking or underage people inside in the name of public health.
You revoke a doctor's license to practice if they're floating narcotics to patients in exchange for kickbacks in the name of public health.
You revoke an electrician's license if they don't follow codes and get permits in the name of public health.
You revoke a trucker's trucking license for one of a million reasons in the name of public health.

Revoking one's ability to operate their business for violations happens every single day in this country. This would be no different.

Don't take this post to mean that I want this. The question was "how do you make it enforceable", and that's how you'd have to do it.

Yeah I still think it's crap, sorry. Maybe in a big city, okay, you have hundreds of thousands, millions of people. Out here in rural America, that's just bullshit. People come in here without masks all the time and we're fine. Business owner doesn't deserve to be punished for not wanting to enforce wearing masks, especially small business owners. Chino, serious question, have you ever run a business? It's easy to say "tough shit" when you're not wearing someone else's shoes.

I tried starting one a few years ago and called it quits after 18 months.

Again, I'm not advocating for this. I was responding to the hypothetical question of how we would go about enforcing a nation-wide federal mandate to wear masks in public (again, not something I'm calling for or think is necessary).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:49:44 AM

Ah, gotcha.

Yeah, I just don't think a federal mandate would work for something like this in this country. I think it would be beneficial and work for cities and larger populated areas but not for the vast majority of the country. I think it would make more problems than it would help people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 24, 2020, 06:52:15 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 06:41:45 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:40:37 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 24, 2020, 06:27:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 06:06:56 AM

Revoking someone's business license for choosing to not make everyone wear a mask is ridiculous imo

If it was a federally mandated requirement, tough shit. It's a public health crisis and it's not a complicated ask.


You revoke a bar's liquor license if they allow smoking or underage people inside in the name of public health.
You revoke a doctor's license to practice if they're floating narcotics to patients in exchange for kickbacks in the name of public health.
You revoke an electrician's license if they don't follow codes and get permits in the name of public health.
You revoke a trucker's trucking license for one of a million reasons in the name of public health.

Revoking one's ability to operate their business for violations happens every single day in this country. This would be no different.

Don't take this post to mean that I want this. The question was "how do you make it enforceable", and that's how you'd have to do it.

Yeah I still think it's crap, sorry. Maybe in a big city, okay, you have hundreds of thousands, millions of people. Out here in rural America, that's just bullshit. People come in here without masks all the time and we're fine. Chino, serious question, have you ever run a business?

I agree this should be a city or county decision, not state-wide and certainly not national.

I would take that a little further and say it shouldn't be a county decision either for the reason Walrus pointed out.  And leaving it entirely as a personal decision is best in my view.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 07:01:48 AM

For the most part around me counties are either all urban/suburban or rural, so I wouldn't have a huge problem with it being done county wide. But like you, I think the best solution is leaving it as a decision and for each person or business to make on their own.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 07:46:22 AM

My company just announces that they're planning to have everyone come back into the office on September 14th. Me and one of my coworkers are going to work on a pitch to our boss and her boss on why we should be allowed to work from home at least part-time forever since we both think we're more efficient at home than in the office. I hope we can convince them. Our plant manager tends to have a fairness mindset (it's not fair that we can work from home but not others) so I'm doubtful we'll convince her, but we're at least going to try.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 07:49:13 AM

Wouldn't it be beneficial to companies to give back office space to save money and have people work from home if that is a more efficient model and what the employee would like?  I really hate the idea of forcing people back into offices if the metrics show working from home is a better solution.  My company said they don't expect anyone back until January except those most important to have to be in the office and those people will gradually phase in starting September.  I work in our data center and am now on a 2 day rotation with my coworker and we both WFH on Friday.  It's actually kind of nice especially since there still isn't any traffic commuting. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 24, 2020, 06:52:15 AM

I would take that a little further and say it shouldn't be a county decision either for the reason Walrus pointed out.  And leaving it entirely as a personal decision is best in my view.

This is absolutely the WORST thing you could do - leave it up to individuals choices. My opinion is not nearly that optimistic. People have politized/weaponized wearing the mask. There are people getting attacked and bullied just for wearing a mask. Look at the States that didn't flatten the curve and stopped social distancing, their numbers are dangerously spiking. Hell, Children's Medical in Houston is now being used because hospitals in Houston are strained.

I am not a "one size fits all" type of person and think there are parts of the country (rural) where it can be an individual choice but I think in densely populated areas it does need to be a mandate. There will never be a Federal mandate as long this President is in office but the Governor of Texas FINALLY said it - "just because you need to wear a mask doesn't mean your freedom has been curtailed".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 08:03:37 AM

As much as I wish we could ditch the mask, I agree.  People need to be told what to do at some point and we reached that point in many areas.  It sucks, but that's the reality IMO.  It should be local mandates as there is way too much variation across the nation.  What worries me is how do we know when we are comfortable to remove these mandates?  I don't think we are there yet, but I worry we may never get rid of the masks without a vaccine.  Stuff like this shows that it actually works https://www.livescience.com/hair-stylists-infected-covid19-face-masks.html (https://www.livescience.com/hair-stylists-infected-covid19-face-masks.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 08:06:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 07:49:13 AM

Wouldn't it be beneficial to companies to give back office space to save money and have people work from home if that is a more efficient model and what the employee would like? 

I agree, my coworker agrees, and our boss if fine with it. But our corporate overlords don't seem to be super keen on working from home and the manager of our building seems reluctant. I'm hopeful having worked from home successfully for 6 months will change some minds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on June 24, 2020, 08:10:38 AM

The problem there is that many Americans have made it clear that they don’t give a crap about laws if it’s a situation where they don’t agree with it (immigration laws, for example), so the precedent has been set that you can just ignore any law with which you don’t agree.  Granted, this is different given the health crisis, but it’s the mentality that had been ingrained in many at this point. Look at all of those church gatherings when COVID was at its scariest point (March/April) or all of those protestors in the last month not wearing masks. People just don’t care.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 08:14:43 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on June 24, 2020, 08:10:38 AM

The problem there is that many Americans have made it clear that they don’t give a crap about laws if it’s a situation where they don’t agree with it (immigration laws, for example), so the precedent has been set that you can just ignore any law with which you don’t agree.  Granted, this is different given the health crisis, but it’s the mentality that had been ingrained in many at this point. Look at all of those church gatherings when COVID was at its scariest point (March/April) or all of those protestors in the last month not wearing masks. People just don’t care.

In fairness to the protesters, most of them were not required to wear masks since they were outdoors. And most places don't require them at all. But your point is valid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 08:22:51 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on June 24, 2020, 08:10:38 AM

The problem there is that many Americans have made it clear that they don’t give a crap about laws if it’s a situation where they don’t agree with it (immigration laws, for example), so the precedent has been set that you can just ignore any law with which you don’t agree.  Granted, this is different given the health crisis, but it’s the mentality that had been ingrained in many at this point. Look at all of those church gatherings when COVID was at its scariest point (March/April) or all of those protestors in the last month not wearing masks. People just don’t care.

Yeah, that.

As far as it being a federal mandate, that won't happen, and wouldn't happen under any presidency.  It just isn't the type of issue under our federal Constitution where it should be regulated at that level.  Whether states or municipalities should do so is another matter.

We had heard of a really cool themed restaurant that we were going to visit in early June for my daughter's birthday.  She would have loved it.  But we called ahead to check on whether staff wore masks, and why types of precautions they were taking (my wife and I have eaten out a few times, and other places are taking great precautions to keep people safe).  They said they weren't doing anything whatsoever.  So we passed on them.  I think it would have been smarter business for them to take the types of measures most other restaurants in our area are taking.  And I wouldn't really have much problem if the State Department of Public Health, or the county, or the town said they had to.  But it isn't the feds' business, and I would find it pretty disturbing if they made it their business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 08:24:34 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 08:14:43 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on June 24, 2020, 08:10:38 AM

The problem there is that many Americans have made it clear that they don’t give a crap about laws if it’s a situation where they don’t agree with it (immigration laws, for example), so the precedent has been set that you can just ignore any law with which you don’t agree.  Granted, this is different given the health crisis, but it’s the mentality that had been ingrained in many at this point. Look at all of those church gatherings when COVID was at its scariest point (March/April) or all of those protestors in the last month not wearing masks. People just don’t care.

In fairness to the protesters, most of them were not required to wear masks since they were outdoors. And most places don't require them at all. But your point is valid.

True, but the assumption in that situation is not simply that one is outside, but that one is able to maintain a 6-foot distance by virtue of being outside.  To Kev's point, people didn't care about that and were shoulder to shoulder without masks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 24, 2020, 08:29:31 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 24, 2020, 06:52:15 AM

I would take that a little further and say it shouldn't be a county decision either for the reason Walrus pointed out.  And leaving it entirely as a personal decision is best in my view.

This is absolutely the WORST thing you could do - leave it up to individuals choices. My opinion is not nearly that optimistic. People have politized/weaponized wearing the mask. There are people getting attacked and bullied just for wearing a mask. Look at the States that didn't flatten the curve and stopped social distancing, their numbers are dangerously spiking. Hell, Children's Medical in Houston is now being used because hospitals in Houston are strained.

And people have politicized/weaponized the WEARING of masks.   Jeez, we're at the point now where taking a leak is politicized/weaponized (and as I type that, I realize.... it really HAS, it's not a joke).   

The real problem here is that there isn't really a clean, obvious causal connection.  It's all in the realm of "common sense", which is shorthand for "I don't have a better argument".  It's interesting you mention Texas, because I've (unfortunately) had about three instances where I've discussed COVID with a friend in Texas, and my experience here in Connecticut is almost entirely opposite.   We're open for business.  We can go to the casino, get haircuts, go to dinner... I'm not sure I can walk into a bar and sit and enjoy a vodka/soda/splash of ginger ale, but that and a concert are about the only thing I can think of that I cannot do.    Some individual businesses have signs on the door that preclude entrance without a mask (as is their right, COVID or no COVID; it's their property) but some not.  I wear a mask because I'm a fraidy cat, but I've had more cases of "do you want me to wear this?" "Nah, I don't care; just don't get too close" than I have "please put that on, or I can't help you", by a factor of at least five. 

Our testing is going up, our cases are going down, our hospitalizations are going down, our deaths are going down (https://projects.propublica.org/reopening-america/)...

Quote

I am not a "one size fits all" type of person and think there are parts of the country (rural) where it can be an individual choice but I think in densely populated areas it does need to be a mandate. There will never be a Federal mandate as long this President is in office but the Governor of Texas FINALLY said it - "just because you need to wear a mask doesn't mean your freedom has been curtailed".

If you're not a "one size fits all" type - and I believe you on that - then "Federal mandate" shouldn't be a requirement.  That's the very definition of "one size fits all".   This is less about Trump's whatever - it's less about TRUMP - than it is that this might actually be the right answer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 24, 2020, 08:34:50 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 08:14:43 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on June 24, 2020, 08:10:38 AM

The problem there is that many Americans have made it clear that they don’t give a crap about laws if it’s a situation where they don’t agree with it (immigration laws, for example), so the precedent has been set that you can just ignore any law with which you don’t agree.  Granted, this is different given the health crisis, but it’s the mentality that had been ingrained in many at this point. Look at all of those church gatherings when COVID was at its scariest point (March/April) or all of those protestors in the last month not wearing masks. People just don’t care.

In fairness to the protesters, most of them were not required to wear masks since they were outdoors. And most places don't require them at all. But your point is valid.

I'm not speaking for Kev, but as someone who agrees with his point almost completely, it's not limited to COVID, and it's not limited to those stupid, smelly, deplorable, bad-dressing, bad-smelling MAGA maniacs (no one said this, I know, but it's a common trope at this point).   It's across the political spectrum.  Sanctuary cities.  Weed laws.  Immigration.   Bathrooms.   Cakes.   Marriage licenses.    Add to that volatile mixture the figurative spark that is social media, and it's almost a badge of courage now.  "I'm no sheep; I'm going to do whatever I want to, and the "fascist/socialist government" (depending on what side of the aisle you're on, even if it's technically wrong in both cases) can't stop me."   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 08:43:40 AM

For the record I was just pointing out that the protesters weren't ignoring a law they didn't agree with by not wearing a mask since for the most part there were no laws forcing them to wear one. I agree with the larger point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 24, 2020, 08:48:32 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 08:06:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 07:49:13 AM

Wouldn't it be beneficial to companies to give back office space to save money and have people work from home if that is a more efficient model and what the employee would like? 

I agree, my coworker agrees, and our boss if fine with it. But our corporate overlords don't seem to be super keen on working from home and the manager of our building seems reluctant. I'm hopeful having worked from home successfully for 6 months will change some minds.

We got a survey last week about our experiences working from home and what it would take for us to be comfortable going back into the office.

I was very blunt in my responses. Some of the things I highlighted throughout:

1) I told them they need to get with the times. We have 30,000 employees, the majority of which do not need an office space to do our jobs. The company is spending millions of dollars per year on office space that's adding no value to our deliverables. They're talking about creating groups based on desk position and having us come into the office depending on the day. I don't want to drive into the office just to have to have my meetings over the phone with people who aren't in the office that day. There's no added benefit to me being there.

2) Physical and mental health -  With not having to commute or get ready for the office, I get 2.5 hours of my life back per day. I've been exercising more in the last two months than at any point in my professional career and I'm down 21lbs since Covid started. I have no obligation to go out to lunch or to happy hours with co-workers, further saving me calories and money. I haven't heard an alarm clock go off in I can't remember how long. I can't even begin to describe how much better the opening notes of my days have been since starting to wake up on my own accord.

3) Money saving - I'm driving roughly 1100 miles per month less now. That's 1100 less miles in fuel costs and wear and tear on my car, and I no longer need an extra $140 per month for my parking garage space. I went so far as to say I'd take working from home in lieu of a raise for the next three years. I didn't say this part in the survey, but I've been able to put my weekend job on hold and have noticed no change to my monthly budget. I have a second job for the sole purpose of being able to afford getting to and from my primary job. It's fucking nuts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 08:52:25 AM

It's kind of weird how much money I'm not spending in these times.  Part of it is WFH 3 days a week, that's a lot of commute expense savings like you said.  The other part is the inability to go out and spend money, such as concerts, so I haven't worked any OT hours in months and yet I'm saving more money than I had ever before per pay check since I just have such little expenses right now.  Easily the biggest positive out of the corona situation we've been in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 08:56:41 AM

Yeah, we were actually below our budget in April and May which never happens. June we're above again now that things are opening up and my wife is out shopping a little bit again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 24, 2020, 09:04:50 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 24, 2020, 08:48:32 AM

I'm down 21lbs since Covid started.

YAY!  I'm jealous!   (And I hear you on the alarm clock; I rarely use an alarm clock these days.)

Quote

3) Money saving - I'm driving roughly 1100 miles per month less now.

Pro tip: My insurance company just implemented a program that pro-rates your insurance rates based on driving characteristics* and mileage.   I don't drive that much to begin with, and that's less now with COVID, and between that and the "characteristics", my insurance is probably half what it was 18 months ago.   With four cars and three drivers, that's significant.


* Basically, if you don't drive much on the highway, and don't drive much at night, you get anywhere from a 15% to 25% discount on your insurance.    Nothing that plugs into your car (though there is for the mileage), it's an app, and you can turn it on or off at your leisure (though I find that if you want the discount, you need the data, and if you want the data, it's easier if you keep it on in the background; if you're me, you'll likely forget it's there, and won't turn it off.  You do occasionally get a "Is this trip yours?" query.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 09:09:48 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 24, 2020, 08:48:32 AM

I'm down 21lbs since Covid started

Ha!  21.8 here.  Suck it!

:biggrin:

Yeah, I hear you on all of that.  I said similar things.  Although for us (and most employers for that matter), I don't think it is quite that simple since, seeing it from the HR/management/employee relations side, I see that in a situation where the rules already make it incredibly difficult for supervisors to manage poor performers, it is even more difficult when everyone is working remotely.  I don't know how to address that.  But that aside, I otherwise agree with pretty much everything you said.  And on a personal note, I have absolutely LOVED reaping the benefits you mention above from working from home these last few months.  If there is a silver lining to this pandemic, working from home has truly been wonderful, for the most part. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 24, 2020, 09:13:44 AM

I'm up 15 lbs so far since Covid started. Got far too much junk when it first started to try and battle the annoyance and frustration of having to stay home all the time. Plus my wife was newly pregnant so I had to gain some sympathy weight. Getting back into better habits has been difficult.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 09:23:28 AM

Nice job Chino and Bosk losing some weight.  I haven't lost any during this time, I had lost a ton before all this stay at home stuff, but I've put on some muscle I believe so I'm physically feeling pretty good.  Going to be kicking ass in the mosh pits once I'm able to  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 09:31:49 AM

I really thought I would lose more, actually.  My goal has been to get under 185.  I hit 189 and am completely stalled for the last 3 weeks.  Diet has been consistent, and exercise has been at a pretty good level too, so it's not for lack of effort.  Just gotta keep hammering at it, and possibly change up the exercise routine to add some different exercise, I guess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 09:40:02 AM

Before the lockdown, I was seriously changing my diet. I was buying grass finished beef, looking for fresh poultry and trying to buy organic vegetables and was generally eating cleaner to reduce inflammation. We are still making our own beef bone broth and I can't stomach store bought bone broth anymore but since the lockdown, we order online and pickup our groceries and there has been a shortage of certain groceries so I have to revert back to bad carbs like potatoes and pasta which I want to greatly reduce.

Now that things have eased up, we will buy a freezer and stock that bitch up with beef, pig and bird and I can get back to my clean eating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 24, 2020, 11:14:00 AM

Funny that I've changed my diet up in a big way and done more cardio than I have in years during this pandemic, although it's not related to the pandemic at all haha. I do miss lifting weights. One day when I own a house I'll at least have my own workout room...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on June 24, 2020, 12:59:37 PM

“I cannot stress this enough.

PLEASE wear a mask!  PLEASE social distance.  The lives you save may be your own, or those in your family.  You reduce the chances of catching this deadly virus, or transmitting it, by almost 600 percent!!!  If you’ve ever gambled, wouldn’t you prefer those odds?

As Americans, we must look out for our fellow citizens.  The elderly, those with heart conditions.  Those with asthma.  The young….since this virus knows no age limits.  Our health professionals.  Our men and women in blue.  Firefighters.  Our military, and those who have proudly served this country in the past.

Our ‘essential’ workers.

We also do not know the long term effects of those who are asymptomatic.  We do know that C19 affects the lungs, kidneys, liver, heart, and brain.  We do not know when individuals who test positive will encounter issues with those body organs in the future.

Do you want to be responsible for endangering those around you to the point of forcing more statewide shutdowns, and further stagnating our nation's economy?  Remember how much fun and enjoyment you had when almost NOTHING was open?  Huh?  Remember those fun one hundred plus days? 

Or…would you rather wear that mask that is temporarily uncomfortable to shop where you want to, go to where you want to, travel and visit with people you haven’t seen in months……as well as to save lives?

Or would you prefer that you or loved ones and acquaintances spend days or weeks on a ventilator?  Or die?

It is in the best interest of everyone to play it safe, otherwise there will be…..and I guarantee it……there will be worse days ahead.

It’s that simple.  This is not going away anytime soon.  The virus is not weakening.  Just look at Brazil, Mexico, India......Arizona, Texas, Florida.....

Those who don’t wear a mask are being selfish.  Your carelessness may cause the illness or death of someone who could have provided assistance to a sick member in your family.  If too many of them are lost, where will you or your loved ones find assistance when you need medical aid that is truly life or death?”

What any real leader. who cares about YOUR well being. would say.

Or....what I'm saying to all of those who don't care about my well being, my wife and family's well being, and all my friends and associates and former collegues throughout the Americas and Europe.  Wish I could walk into any area that you are at, strip down into my skivvies, bring my dog in, light up a cigar and blow it in your face.   I'd hate to do it, and you wouldn't like it.  Why?  Because those actions are not courteous or civil.  There are regulations against these actions.  Now, eliminate the blowing cigar smoke in your face, and there's nothing possibly deadly in my actions.  Not wearing a mask IS possibly deadly.  What part of this pandemic, that will still be around twelve months from now, don't people understand?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 01:05:46 PM

Well its official, if you are coming from one of the "bad" states, you'll have to quarantine once you come into NJ/NY/CT.  This was announced literally as my sister was trying to find a way to convinve my other siblings and I to drive down to Florida for 4th of July to join them at my parents.  As much as I'd like to see my parents, it's really still just a bad idea. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/new-york-coronavirus-travel-restriction/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/new-york-coronavirus-travel-restriction/index.html)

The states:

Alabama
Arkansas
Arizona
Florida
North Carolina
South Carolina
Washington
Utah
Texas

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 24, 2020, 01:49:18 PM

This is not directed to anyone in general, but the wide swath of views on precautions to take (or not to take) - especially on the topic of wearing a piece of cloth over your mouth and nose (the latter part a lot of people seem to miss in the vids I have seen)... all in the act to improve public health, is baffling.  And if DTF is a representative microcosm of the US at large (From DA's desperate plea that everyone wear a mask, to Brother Lion's opine that it should be personal choice - and we know there are many more Americans who have even more extreme positions), it's no wonder you have over 2x the number of cases and deaths over any other country.

5500 new cases in Florida alone today.

#smh

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 24, 2020, 01:58:04 PM

It really seems split by your political views too on wearing a mask.  All my Rep friends scream fraud and not wearing a mask.  The Dem friends are wearing masks and ridiculing the others.  Crazy time we live in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on June 24, 2020, 02:14:39 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 01:58:04 PM

It really seems split by your political views too on wearing a mask.  All my Rep friends scream fraud and not wearing a mask.  The Dem friends are wearing masks and ridiculing the others.  Crazy time we live in.

That's what amazes me - how this virus became so politicized.  To me, it doesn't matter what political beliefs you have, it's a public health issue.  Period.  I feel silly wearing a mask, but I do it because it shows respect to others.  It's not necessarily to protect me (though it helps a little), it's really to try and protect others in the event that I could be sick.

What bums me out is that my 5 year old daughter is off to kindergarden in the fall and her school day will be impacted by this.  I hate the idea that she has to wear a mask to school, and my 2 year old is terrified of wearing one, so I have no idea what we'll do when he's supposed to start preschool.

I'm trying to be patient and not worry about it, but I just feel so bad for my kids having to deal with this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 24, 2020, 02:23:01 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 01:58:04 PM

It really seems split by your political views too on wearing a mask.  All my Rep friends scream fraud and not wearing a mask.  The Dem friends are wearing masks and ridiculing the others.  Crazy time we live in.

Our family still wears them.....but I live in a highly 'R' area and the looks I/we get when out are just funny.....it really has been politicized which is a shame.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 24, 2020, 02:25:41 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 01:58:04 PM

It really seems split by your political views too on wearing a mask.  All my Rep friends scream fraud and not wearing a mask.  The Dem friends are wearing masks and ridiculing the others.  Crazy time we live in.

I think the part that is sort of glossed over is the part in bold.  I don't think people realize FROM THE OTHER SIDE how much that calls the whole endeavor into question.   I'm Bill Nye the Science Guy when it comes to this, I follow the site that has each state's numbers, and I've got my masks and gloves at the ready in all my cars.  Like Cram, I've had "pressure" to travel (once to North Carolina, and once to Florida, both on the list) and have politely, but firmly, refused.  Having said that, some of the more aggressive "wear a mask" messages are a turn off, and do nothing to reaffirm what I've already decided to do.   

I'm blessed in that I have two governors - Cuomo and Ned Lamont - that have almost single-handedly removed politics from the equation.  I didn't vote for Lamont, and I'll be honest, I regret that now.  He's risen to the occasion - not quite like Cuomo has, but still  - and I applaud him every chance I get.  Even though I'm in a VERY blue state, there's very little arguing, mocking, moralizing, or partisanship.  He's speaking in basic language and in human terms, backed with numbers and facts and reason.  When the re-opening started, and he got pushback from the restaurant and hair industries, he didn't attack them, fight them or question their morality or patriotism.  He sat down with them - once on TELEVISION, in an open hearing - listened to their concerns, heard them, and responded to them.  He didn't capitulate to all of the requests, but he negotiated a position that all could live with. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 24, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

Both sides have been asses to each other in this.  It's more about throwing it into each other's face than pulling together. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on June 24, 2020, 02:37:06 PM

I'm going into hyperbole territory here, but sometimes - not always - sometimes, when I see that such a fundamentally common and "egalitarian" menace doesn't drive people together (the famous "alien invasion scenario" we where told would have united the human race when we were kids) but it's used as yet another bullying rhetorical crowbar, then I think this virus hasn't done a thorough job.

Forgive my cynicism, or my naivety.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 24, 2020, 02:39:03 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/OQYs2g3.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 02:40:45 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/as-covid-cases-fall-in-europe-calls-to-ban-travel-from-america-what-the-eu-got-right-about-controlling-coronavirus-164627926.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/as-covid-cases-fall-in-europe-calls-to-ban-travel-from-america-what-the-eu-got-right-about-controlling-coronavirus-164627926.html)

Would be interesting if the EU opens up to everyone, including China, but not the US.  This really hurts my company too, we are struggling in our EU data centers because we can't get anyone over there to fix everything that's breaking.  As of now, was told international travel is off the table until February of next year. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 24, 2020, 03:02:14 PM

Also, speaking of politicizing the virus... here is some twitter data that supports that:

https://news.osu.edu/twitter-posts-reveal-polarization-in-congress-on-covid-19/ (https://news.osu.edu/twitter-posts-reveal-polarization-in-congress-on-covid-19/)

Quote

The algorithm they created could correctly classify the political party of the member who sent each tweet 76 percent of the time, based only on the text of the tweet and the date it was sent.

boy do I hate sharing an Ohio State article  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

Both sides have been asses to each other in this.  It's more about throwing it into each other's face than pulling together.

I completely disagree with your assessment abut "both" sides. One side has been particularly violent. One side has been perpetually denying the reality especially early on. One side has been opening up their States before flattening curve and are now seeing spikes in the virus that are so bad, there are basically travel bans to a number of States.

The Pandemic happened on one sides watch and while I don't blame them for the virus, I certainly hold them responsible for the response which has been a clinic of what never to do in a crisis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 24, 2020, 04:01:09 PM

Yes but I'm talking more interaction online.  Emotions run too high face to face durring protests right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 24, 2020, 04:20:27 PM

You could also blame one side for protesting not bothering with masks, social distancing ect.  I think both sides have = blame here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 04:57:34 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

Both sides have been asses to each other in this.  It's more about throwing it into each other's face than pulling together.

I completely disagree with your assessment abut "both" sides. One side has been particularly violent. One side has been perpetually denying the reality especially early on. One side has been opening up their States before flattening curve and are now seeing spikes in the virus that are so bad, there are basically travel bans to a number of States.

The Pandemic happened on one sides watch and while I don't blame them for the virus, I certainly hold them responsible for the response which has been a clinic of what never to do in a crisis.

There aren't even "sides," and posts like this are supremely unhelpful.  I was going to say "counterproductive," but "actively anti-productive" is more accurate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:00:30 PM

I mean, what if we all agreed to blame Juggalos?

Would that work?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 05:05:26 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 04:57:34 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

Both sides have been asses to each other in this.  It's more about throwing it into each other's face than pulling together.

I completely disagree with your assessment abut "both" sides. One side has been particularly violent. One side has been perpetually denying the reality especially early on. One side has been opening up their States before flattening curve and are now seeing spikes in the virus that are so bad, there are basically travel bans to a number of States.

The Pandemic happened on one sides watch and while I don't blame them for the virus, I certainly hold them responsible for the response which has been a clinic of what never to do in a crisis.

There aren't even "sides," and posts like this are supremely unhelpful.  I was going to say "counterproductive," but "actively anti-productive" is more accurate.

You know what's unproductive? Saying that both sides are to blame or being a-holes without context. Fuck, at least I gave examples even more than you did.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:15:30 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:00:30 PM

I mean, what if we all agreed to blame Juggalos?

Would that work?

Well, sure.  Not very helpful in the grand scheme of things.  But it works.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:17:22 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:15:30 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:00:30 PM

I mean, what if we all agreed to blame Juggalos?

Would that work?

Well, sure.  Not very helpful in the grand scheme of things.  But it works.

Scapegoating works!

Trust me, I’m Jewish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 24, 2020, 05:17:58 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:00:30 PM

I mean, what if we all agreed to blame Juggalos?

Would that work?

It's way to easy to blame Juggalos.   I do it all the time. Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 24, 2020, 05:19:26 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 05:05:26 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 04:57:34 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

Both sides have been asses to each other in this.  It's more about throwing it into each other's face than pulling together.

I completely disagree with your assessment abut "both" sides. One side has been particularly violent. One side has been perpetually denying the reality especially early on. One side has been opening up their States before flattening curve and are now seeing spikes in the virus that are so bad, there are basically travel bans to a number of States.

The Pandemic happened on one sides watch and while I don't blame them for the virus, I certainly hold them responsible for the response which has been a clinic of what never to do in a crisis.

There aren't even "sides," and posts like this are supremely unhelpful.  I was going to say "counterproductive," but "actively anti-productive" is more accurate.

You know what's unproductive? Saying that both sides are to blame or being a-holes without context. Fuck, at least I gave examples even more than you did.

Sorry but both are. You've obviously lost the word compromise.  The world needs more of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:21:01 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:17:22 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:15:30 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:00:30 PM

I mean, what if we all agreed to blame Juggalos?

Would that work?

Well, sure.  Not very helpful in the grand scheme of things.  But it works.

Scapegoating works!

Trust me, I’m Jewish.

I can top that.  I'm Jewish and I was raised Catholic.  *boom*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:24:14 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:21:01 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:17:22 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:15:30 PM

Quote from: Adami on June 24, 2020, 05:00:30 PM

I mean, what if we all agreed to blame Juggalos?

Would that work?

Well, sure.  Not very helpful in the grand scheme of things.  But it works.

Scapegoating works!

Trust me, I’m Jewish.

I can top that.  I'm Jewish and I was raised Catholic.  *boom*

Perfect! Then you’re familiar with both sides of scapegoating.  ;D :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:26:18 PM

Exactly.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 24, 2020, 05:34:07 PM

I'm Lebanese & Irish.

No laughing matter. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on June 24, 2020, 05:53:01 PM

Raised by a Catholic father and a Marxist atheist mother.

I'm actually jealous of goats.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 05:58:33 PM

Quote from: Indiscipline on June 24, 2020, 05:53:01 PM

I'm actually jealous of goats.

As am I.  But likely for different reasons.  But my therapist says it's okay, and that it's normal for a boy my age.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on June 24, 2020, 06:04:00 PM

Is this the moron-avirus thread??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on June 24, 2020, 11:51:09 PM

So, getting back to this whole virus thing...  I know millions of sports fans want some semblance of sports to return, and the leagues think they can get something up and running in a safe manner. But it seems like we can't go 30 minutes without hearing of some pro athlete testing positive, so maybe it isn't working out as well as everyone is hoping it would.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on June 24, 2020, 11:58:10 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on June 24, 2020, 11:51:09 PM

So, getting back to this whole virus thing...  I know millions of sports fans want some semblance of sports to return, and the leagues think they can get something up and running in a safe manner. But it seems like we can't go 30 minutes without hearing of some pro athlete testing positive, so maybe it isn't working out as well as everyone is hoping it would.

A lot of countries in Europe have managed to get their football seasons back up and running after 100+ days without it.   Obviously played in empty stadiums.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 25, 2020, 07:29:04 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on June 24, 2020, 11:58:10 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on June 24, 2020, 11:51:09 PM

So, getting back to this whole virus thing...  I know millions of sports fans want some semblance of sports to return, and the leagues think they can get something up and running in a safe manner. But it seems like we can't go 30 minutes without hearing of some pro athlete testing positive, so maybe it isn't working out as well as everyone is hoping it would.

A lot of countries in Europe have managed to get their football seasons back up and running after 100+ days without it.   Obviously played in empty stadiums.

I'm not really a sports fan so maybe I'm missing something, but if the stadiums are empty, what's the point?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 25, 2020, 07:30:52 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 25, 2020, 07:29:04 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on June 24, 2020, 11:58:10 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on June 24, 2020, 11:51:09 PM

So, getting back to this whole virus thing...  I know millions of sports fans want some semblance of sports to return, and the leagues think they can get something up and running in a safe manner. But it seems like we can't go 30 minutes without hearing of some pro athlete testing positive, so maybe it isn't working out as well as everyone is hoping it would.

A lot of countries in Europe have managed to get their football seasons back up and running after 100+ days without it.   Obviously played in empty stadiums.

I'm not really a sports fan so maybe I'm missing something, but if the stadiums are empty, what's the point?

Televise/live stream them. Still brings in revenue, still gives the teams the ability to play and the season to continue, still lets the fans watch. Similar to bands playing via livestream.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on June 25, 2020, 07:47:37 AM

In some countries, like the one I live in, football is an incredibly effective social narcotic.

People obsess over teams and rivalries, experience vicarious little victories, and don't pay attention to important issues they're "not supposed to pay attention to".

Panem et circenses.

In such a country, believe it or not, re-opening or keeping locked up a championship is going to be a huge deal breaker come next elections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on June 25, 2020, 08:50:13 AM

Yeah, I watched Bundesliga (German football league) last Saturday live. It is a bit anticlimactic with the empty stadiums, but it's also really quiet and you can hear coaches shouting the tactical maneuvers and sometimes players shouting SCHEISSE which is kinda fun.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on June 25, 2020, 08:51:11 AM

I thought you were busy managing Liverpool FC

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 25, 2020, 08:51:15 AM

I would like to watch boxing or MMA fights with no audience. Listening to Joe Rogan talk about commentating for audience-less fights has me interested; you can hear the fighters' breathing and the sound of every blow that connects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 25, 2020, 08:57:04 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 25, 2020, 08:51:15 AM

I would like to watch boxing or MMA fights with no audience. Listening to Joe Rogan talk about commentating for audience-less fights has me interested; you can hear the fighters' breathing and the sound of every blow that connects.

I don't know if it's at all comparable, but in BattleBots, the video footage of matches that are raw audio only get really boring very quickly. It's viscous and you hear damaging sounds that usually don't get into the final audio mix, but it still feels like a lot is missing. Almost like watching Friends without a laugh track (worth checking out on Youtube).  Something about the changing tones of the announcers and the crowd reactions keeps it at a higher level of entertainment. Though I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who hate the announcers and would prefer to only hear audio from inside the box. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 25, 2020, 08:59:34 AM

Quote from: Chino on June 25, 2020, 08:57:04 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 25, 2020, 08:51:15 AM

I would like to watch boxing or MMA fights with no audience. Listening to Joe Rogan talk about commentating for audience-less fights has me interested; you can hear the fighters' breathing and the sound of every blow that connects.

I don't know if it's at all comparable, but in BattleBots, the video footage of matches that areraw audio only get really boring very quickly. It's viscous and you hear damaging sounds that usually don't get into the final audio mix, but it still feels like a lot is missing. Almost like watching Friends without a laugh track.  Something about the changing tones of the announcers and the crowd reactions keeps it at a higher level of entertainment. Though I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who hate the announcers and would prefer to only hear audio from inside the box.

See I'm not all that into BattleBots, so I imagine that would get boring  :lol But a fight between two shredded dudes going at it for a title? I could probably do that.

Also 'viscous' as a word for describing audio gives me goosebumps. Gross  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 25, 2020, 09:43:22 AM

The novelty of no crowd wears off quickly. It's still better than nothing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 25, 2020, 10:29:43 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

Both sides have been asses to each other in this.  It's more about throwing it into each other's face than pulling together.

I completely disagree with your assessment abut "both" sides. One side has been particularly violent. One side has been perpetually denying the reality especially early on. One side has been opening up their States before flattening curve and are now seeing spikes in the virus that are so bad, there are basically travel bans to a number of States.

The Pandemic happened on one sides watch and while I don't blame them for the virus, I certainly hold them responsible for the response which has been a clinic of what never to do in a crisis.

True that, but I was trying to keep it civil.  There's no reason to keep hammering on the left on every issue; there's enough blame to go around.  ;) 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 25, 2020, 10:46:43 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 05:05:26 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2020, 04:57:34 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on June 24, 2020, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 24, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

Both sides have been asses to each other in this.  It's more about throwing it into each other's face than pulling together.

I completely disagree with your assessment abut "both" sides. One side has been particularly violent. One side has been perpetually denying the reality especially early on. One side has been opening up their States before flattening curve and are now seeing spikes in the virus that are so bad, there are basically travel bans to a number of States.

The Pandemic happened on one sides watch and while I don't blame them for the virus, I certainly hold them responsible for the response which has been a clinic of what never to do in a crisis.

There aren't even "sides," and posts like this are supremely unhelpful.  I was going to say "counterproductive," but "actively anti-productive" is more accurate.

You know what's unproductive? Saying that both sides are to blame or being a-holes without context. Fuck, at least I gave examples even more than you did.

I was joking with my reply, but since we're still talking about it....

Using this site (https://projects.propublica.org/reopening-america/) for COVID-19 data, and this site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_governors) for affiliations:

28 states are going UP in COVID-19 cases: 14 Democrat (by Governor), 14 Republican (by Governor)
22 states are going DOWN in COVID-19 cases, 10 Democrat (by Governor), 12 Republican (by Governor)

So... it's just as likely that a DEMOCRAT-led state is showing increases as a Republican, and MORE likely that a REPUBLICAN-led state is showing DECREASES.

So, yeah, taking sides doesn't help matters AND isn't really accurate, at least as regards COVID-19.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 25, 2020, 10:58:03 AM

I think it's unfortunate that the virus and how to handle it has become so political (I'm guilty as well).  You'd think this would be something that humanity could all agree on.  I agree that arguing sides isn't very productive, again, I'm also pointing a finger at myself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 25, 2020, 11:03:15 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 25, 2020, 10:58:03 AM

I think it's unfortunate that the virus and how to handle it has become so political (I'm guilty as well).  You'd think this would be something that humanity could all agree on.  I agree that arguing sides isn't very productive, again, I'm also pointing a finger at myself.

Totally agree. I think it’s a real shame the Juggalos have caused so much discord with this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 25, 2020, 11:18:14 AM

Quote from: Adami on June 25, 2020, 11:03:15 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 25, 2020, 10:58:03 AM

I think it's unfortunate that the virus and how to handle it has become so political (I'm guilty as well).  You'd think this would be something that humanity could all agree on.  I agree that arguing sides isn't very productive, again, I'm also pointing a finger at myself.

Totally agree. I think it’s a real shame the Juggalos have caused so much discord with this.

That's what happens when you use Faygo.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on June 25, 2020, 12:48:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on June 25, 2020, 09:43:22 AM

The novelty of no crowd wears off quickly. It's still better than nothing.

All I've got to say is that I am enjoying the Premiere League playing in the background while WFH.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on June 26, 2020, 08:17:45 AM

For the last few months, I've stayed out of Facebook conversations regarding the virus and stay at home regulations.  You just can't win.  With Illinois moving into the next phase of reopening today, everyone online seems to think that playgrounds are open.  They aren't - the governor has to actually mandate that they are now open. 

So I had a little back and forth with someone in a facebook group, posting a screenshot of our county forest preserve's website that confirms that playgrounds are still closed.  The response:

"you just keep living in fear, while the rest of us are bored and want to do things."   Followed by an insult to our governor. 

I'm sorry - you're bored, so as an adult, you're going to disobey a rule, rip down caution tape surrounding the playground and let your kids play?  What kind of an example are you setting for your kids?  That it's ok to disobey a rule if you don't agree with it?  My kids want to play on playgrounds too, but the oldest understands why we aren't right now.  I swear, all of these bored families are going to fuck it up for the rest of us.  If case counts and infection or hospitalization rates go up, we will slide backwards into heavier regulations again.  Illinois has been doing really well over the last month, but the last few days have seen slight upticks. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on June 26, 2020, 08:20:19 AM

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/how-two-researchers-hope-to-use-cannabis-to-temporarily-close-the-doors-on-coronavirus-181015918.html (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/how-two-researchers-hope-to-use-cannabis-to-temporarily-close-the-doors-on-coronavirus-181015918.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 26, 2020, 09:27:17 AM

Mostly tongue in cheek here, but I have been doing my part to fight off coronavirus infection by taking daily doses of cannabis.  Part of my brain justifies it by saying it's helping me fight off a deadly virus.  The rest of my brain doesn't care because of the cannabis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 26, 2020, 09:39:24 AM

Quote from: Orbert on June 26, 2020, 09:27:17 AM

Mostly tongue in cheek here, but I have been doing my part to fight off coronavirus infection by taking daily doses of cannabis.  Part of my brain justifies it by saying it's helping me fight off a deadly virus.  The rest of my brain doesn't care because of the cannabis.

Same. I've been taking my daily dose like 5 or 6 times just to be safe. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 26, 2020, 10:15:32 AM

:tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on June 26, 2020, 11:12:34 AM

Welp.  My new hire who was coming in for orientation emailed me that he was in contact with someone who had covid and got tested today so we are postponing his start date until the results come back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 12:55:30 PM

Quote from: Grappler on June 26, 2020, 08:17:45 AM

For the last few months, I've stayed out of Facebook conversations regarding the virus and stay at home regulations.  You just can't win.  With Illinois moving into the next phase of reopening today, everyone online seems to think that playgrounds are open.  They aren't - the governor has to actually mandate that they are now open. 

So I had a little back and forth with someone in a facebook group, posting a screenshot of our county forest preserve's website that confirms that playgrounds are still closed.  The response:

"you just keep living in fear, while the rest of us are bored and want to do things."   Followed by an insult to our governor. 

I'm sorry - you're bored, so as an adult, you're going to disobey a rule, rip down caution tape surrounding the playground and let your kids play?  What kind of an example are you setting for your kids?  That it's ok to disobey a rule if you don't agree with it?  My kids want to play on playgrounds too, but the oldest understands why we aren't right now.  I swear, all of these bored families are going to fuck it up for the rest of us.  If case counts and infection or hospitalization rates go up, we will slide backwards into heavier regulations again.  Illinois has been doing really well over the last month, but the last few days have seen slight upticks.

I see your frustration Grappler, but let me offer a different point of view if you don't mind.  There is a lot of unknowns about this virus and a lot of well meaning disinfo about it as well.  But there is one thing that I know is a fact.  I have heard this from 3 local medical sources that I know very well and trust.  That is, that the virus can only survive 2 minutes out in the sun.  Thus, all the playgrounds are safe, all the trails are safe, almost all outside activities during the day are safe because they've been sanitised from the covid-19 by the sun.  There is no reason for them to be closed.  It is literally big government pushing people around because they can.  So there are ligitimate reasons to ignore those type of rules.

Using the playground just because they are bored may not be the right frame of mind, but the fact they are doing it isn't dangerous at all according to the sources I mentioned.

Also, I want to be clear that what I just said doesn't factor in social distancing.  If a playground is full of kids from different families breathing on each other, then that is entirely different and what I just said probably becomes entirely moot.  But if it's just kids from one family then there is no danger.

I'm not mentioning my sourses because they have not come from news articles, but rather from experts I know personally in the medical field.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 26, 2020, 01:19:53 PM

The playgrounds and parks are closed because people in those scenarios can’t stay socially distanced.  They tried to open some parks here in FL and it was an unmitigated disaster.  The ones that are open need officials riding around constantly enforcing social distancing rules.  It’s a joke that people just can’t do it.

You can’t open a park/playground for just for one family at a time, hence closing it to all.  The virus lasting 2 minutes in the sun is moot when you have people breathing on and talking to each other.
You can be in a clean room at a microchip factory FFS....it won’t matter if you get breathed on or talked to by someone with the virus.

So, no it isn’t government pushing people around because they can, nor is it ok for people to make up their own rules.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 01:59:25 PM

Well, I'm kind of a "protect life and property only" type of guy so most rules I ignore in my daily life because of the principles of liberty I believe in.  But yeah, if the playground is full, and nobody is social distancing, it could promote the spread of the virus, but so can protests, family reunions, ect.  Not that we shouldn't be carefull, and I am VERY careful even though I live in a state where none of these rules are enforced.

Because of the sun's ability to santize against this particular virus, I'm not sure how much risk there actually is at a playground during the day even with a bunch of people there, I think that might fall into the "unknowns".  And, I'm no expert by any stretch.  That's why I said my argument might be moot.

However, we do have a great test going on right now.  Because of al the protests outside all across the US and other countries, it will be telling to see if the virus spreads further at all because of them.  If not, then it might then be reasonable to assume similar activities with people in close proximity outside might have similar results.  Which would be a good thing.  That means people can enjoy more activities than previously thought and still stay reasonably safe.

In doors is where the real danger is, such as stores and office buildings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on June 26, 2020, 02:42:25 PM

We still have a covered Dawn and water dish by our front door to pour onto the concrete by our front door to 'cleanse' our shoes before entering our home, use sanitized wipes on all of our groceries and carry outs, as well as mail, boxes, etc....sanitizer on our hands when touching anything outside of our control.

We've had guests over in the past month....cleaning faucets and toilet handles and the like before and after.  We'll also sit out in our garage with guests.  We wear masks when walking close by, but sit at ease the rest of the time.

Sadly....it's been almost thirty years since I've had cannibas.  Never a heavy user, but man.....Queen, Zeppelin, The Beatles, Tull, Styx, Queensryche, Yes, Alice Cooper, Genesis....the list goes on and on......always seemed to sound a bit better.  Why was that? ;)

Did I mention Pink Floyd?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 02:54:41 PM

You know, I've never done cannibas.  Maybe some day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 26, 2020, 03:23:00 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on June 26, 2020, 02:42:25 PM

We still have a covered Dawn and water dish by our front door to pour onto the concrete by our front door to 'cleanse' our shoes before entering our home, use sanitized wipes on all of our groceries and carry outs, as well as mail, boxes, etc....sanitizer on our hands when touching anything outside of our control.

We've had guests over in the past month....cleaning faucets and toilet handles and the like before and after.  We'll also sit out in our garage with guests.  We were masks when walking close by, but sit at ease the rest of the time.

Sadly....it's been almost thirty years since I've had cannibas.  Never a heavy user, but man.....Queen, Zeppelin, The Beatles, Tull, Styx, Queensryche, Yes, Alice Cooper, Genesis....the list goes on and on......always seemed to sound a bit better.  Why was that? ;)

Did I mention Pink Floyd?

https://youtu.be/j0B7bzP-Gog (https://youtu.be/j0B7bzP-Gog)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on June 26, 2020, 04:20:27 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 02:54:41 PM

You know, I've never done cannibas.  Maybe some day.

I have not smoked cannibas in 30 years, but would love to try it again sometime.  I would imagine the legal stuff is expensive, but my son tells me he hears is a lot more potent.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on June 26, 2020, 05:01:40 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 12:55:30 PM

Quote from: Grappler on June 26, 2020, 08:17:45 AM

For the last few months, I've stayed out of Facebook conversations regarding the virus and stay at home regulations.  You just can't win.  With Illinois moving into the next phase of reopening today, everyone online seems to think that playgrounds are open.  They aren't - the governor has to actually mandate that they are now open. 

So I had a little back and forth with someone in a facebook group, posting a screenshot of our county forest preserve's website that confirms that playgrounds are still closed.  The response:

"you just keep living in fear, while the rest of us are bored and want to do things."   Followed by an insult to our governor. 

I'm sorry - you're bored, so as an adult, you're going to disobey a rule, rip down caution tape surrounding the playground and let your kids play?  What kind of an example are you setting for your kids?  That it's ok to disobey a rule if you don't agree with it?  My kids want to play on playgrounds too, but the oldest understands why we aren't right now.  I swear, all of these bored families are going to fuck it up for the rest of us.  If case counts and infection or hospitalization rates go up, we will slide backwards into heavier regulations again.  Illinois has been doing really well over the last month, but the last few days have seen slight upticks.

I see your frustration Grappler, but let me offer a different point of view if you don't mind.  There is a lot of unknowns about this virus and a lot of well meaning disinfo about it as well.  But there is one thing that I know is a fact.  I have heard this from 3 local medical sources that I know very well and trust.  That is, that the virus can only survive 2 minutes out in the sun.  Thus, all the playgrounds are safe, all the trails are safe, almost all outside activities during the day are safe because they've been sanitised from the covid-19 by the sun.  There is no reason for them to be closed.  It is literally big government pushing people around because they can.  So there are ligitimate reasons to ignore those type of rules.

Using the playground just because they are bored may not be the right frame of mind, but the fact they are doing it isn't dangerous at all according to the sources I mentioned.

Also, I want to be clear that what I just said doesn't factor in social distancing.  If a playground is full of kids from different families breathing on each other, then that is entirely different and what I just said probably becomes entirely moot.  But if it's just kids from one family then there is no danger.

I'm not mentioning my sourses because they have not come from news articles, but rather from experts I know personally in the medical field.

The sun kills Covid 19 is very much dependent of numerous factors,  like how bright and hot the day is - two minutes is the fastest I've heard, most tests reckon about 7 - 10 quickest but that is in temperatures we rarely ever get.  Also makes a difference on the type of surfaces, metal for example it lives much longer than paper and plastics - so any metal play park equipment you are probably looking at an hour plus day where the temperatures are average.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 05:44:29 PM

I could be wrong, but I thought it had to do with the UV rays and not the temperature.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on June 26, 2020, 06:31:40 PM

No shoes, no shirt, no service....damn the masks and smoking.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=606142733360444

No underwear:  TMI.

Freedom of choice:  how do you stand on a woman's right to choose?

Guess topless beaches are fine. 

Never seen a dentist, had surgery, or visited a cancer ward.....

 :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 26, 2020, 08:46:49 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 25, 2020, 10:58:03 AM

I think it's unfortunate that the virus and how to handle it has become so political (I'm guilty as well).  You'd think this would be something that humanity could all agree on.  I agree that arguing sides isn't very productive, again, I'm also pointing a finger at myself.

I think it very well proved, you can't control people. Everyone has their own thoughts, and certain people tend to not want to obey, even though it's in their best interest not too.


I'm serious in saying, the only reason people are panicking is because there is no quick fix to heal from it. Although, the only ones who really should be worrying are the ones that can be really affected by it, if they're not worrying, why should I if I'm not getting sick. If they are okay with the fact that they may end up catching it and dying, I'm sure they wouldn't mind me continuing my life and wouldn't want to be a burden on me living that life. Also, if they were silent about natural remedies, they're mouths are taped shut with this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 26, 2020, 11:24:11 PM

Edit: Nevermind. I messed up and it fucked it up  :loser: I know what I did and am too tired to fix it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 27, 2020, 05:07:17 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 26, 2020, 08:46:49 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 25, 2020, 10:58:03 AM

I think it's unfortunate that the virus and how to handle it has become so political (I'm guilty as well).  You'd think this would be something that humanity could all agree on.  I agree that arguing sides isn't very productive, again, I'm also pointing a finger at myself.

I think it very well proved, you can't control people. Everyone has their own thoughts, and certain people tend to not want to obey, even though it's in their best interest not too.


I'm serious in saying, the only reason people are panicking is because there is no quick fix to heal from it. Although, the only ones who really should be worrying are the ones that can be really affected by it, if they're not worrying, why should I if I'm not getting sick. If they are okay with the fact that they may end up catching it and dying, I'm sure they wouldn't mind me continuing my life and wouldn't want to be a burden on me living that life. Also, if they were silent about natural remedies, they're mouths are taped shut with this.

Isn't that the rub with any/every illness though - we're all individuals, so while I might be ok from this (or anything), the next healthy 48-year old guy might get sick, another might get hospitalized, another in ICU, and for others it could be fatal.  And for COVID, the issue of spread is the biggest problem.  I get it and am 100% fine, but I pass it to 5 people, who pass it to 5 people .... and so on.  My contraction and spread could end up killing a few or a few dozen.

In a way, you're right... humans are inherently selfish.  That's why so many of the cases that are spiking in the US at the moment are in the 22-44 age bracket.  They don't think they're at risk to get sick, so not behaving in a way to limit their risk.

To them I say  :tup (which should be in green)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on June 27, 2020, 05:10:39 AM

(https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2020/06/0f2bfdee964c762e8362ce8a2ca628b1.jpg) (works only for DT12 theme as I can't do a transparent background in Paint)

We should have a green version of this one actually, that's a good idea

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on June 27, 2020, 07:20:41 AM

So this is should turn out interesting. One of the cooks in another one of the companies we contract out to has a family member who tested positive. The whole staff now is out and has to be tested, so they're taking most of my staff to cover that account, and I'm left with just one other person and the boss, to cook for 100, not a big deal, but if another account has this happen, we're in the shit. And if our big account has this happen, we're highly fucked since they're serving as a commissary kitchen to a good deal of our places.

This is going to be a long few months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on June 27, 2020, 07:58:25 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 12:55:30 PM

I see your frustration Grappler, but let me offer a different point of view if you don't mind.  There is a lot of unknowns about this virus and a lot of well meaning disinfo about it as well.  But there is one thing that I know is a fact.  I have heard this from 3 local medical sources that I know very well and trust.  That is, that the virus can only survive 2 minutes out in the sun.  Thus, all the playgrounds are safe, all the trails are safe, almost all outside activities during the day are safe because they've been sanitised from the covid-19 by the sun.  There is no reason for them to be closed.  It is literally big government pushing people around because they can.  So there are ligitimate reasons to ignore those type of rules.

Using the playground just because they are bored may not be the right frame of mind, but the fact they are doing it isn't dangerous at all according to the sources I mentioned.

Also, I want to be clear that what I just said doesn't factor in social distancing.  If a playground is full of kids from different families breathing on each other, then that is entirely different and what I just said probably becomes entirely moot.  But if it's just kids from one family then there is no danger.

I'm not mentioning my sourses because they have not come from news articles, but rather from experts I know personally in the medical field.

My frustration is simply with grown adults that are acting like children over this.  It has nothing to do with the fear of catching the disease by touching playground equipment.  Seeing  adults that take it upon themselves to tear off caution tape and let their kids play bothers me because it invites others to do the same.  They think playgrounds are open now and then there goes the social distancing. 

We live down the street from our local elementary school, whose playground is not part of the park district's rules.  For the most part, people have stayed off of it, but we've seen small families bring their kids there to play a handful of times.  I taught her to ride her bike in their parking lot and the big paved area of the playground behind the school, so we're there daily.  It's just frustrating that I'm teaching my daughter to follow the rules and you have families thumbing their noses at those rules, creating lots of frustration for her.  She handles it well, but it's a pain to address.

Thankfully, things are opening up more and more, so those rules will change - we'll just take the kids to the park early in the morning when it's not too busy to help with social distancing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on June 27, 2020, 08:34:48 PM

So not sure to put this here or the pissed off thread, but....


Every day we're inundated with which athlete tests positive. 16 NBA guys out of 300 tested. Guess what? That's 5%, the national average. People are going to get this! Get over it.


I've been going to work every fucking day during this. In public!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 28, 2020, 10:43:00 AM

I call bullshit.  No way you know what the NBA is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on June 28, 2020, 10:55:16 AM

It was what was reported. No need to bullshit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 28, 2020, 11:10:05 AM

Yeah I just go to work with no mask now and everything is hunky dory over here. Still wearing the masks in stores but even then things are preeeeetty normal here. Illinois done good with trying to get people to wear masks even though a lot of people want to politicize it and be rebels lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on June 29, 2020, 06:06:24 AM

Had a call with my doctor and it turns out I had it a while back, based on serological testing. Unfortunately I am still tired, three months after the fact (as in I need about 2-3 hours more sleep per day and still don't feel a 100%) and that seems to be a common symptom of younger people who had a mild case (ill for more than a week, but manageable and not hospital worthy). At least, that is what my doctor tells me, as does a friend of mine who is also a general practicioner that has seen a fair amount of cases like me.

I initially thought I was just tired because I went from sitting on my ass at home to full time work again, on top of the intial allergy season (which always hits me). But now after a while I can say it is not that. Hopefully that feeling will go away soon, but thankfully I do function properly overall. My housemates tested negative btw, which is interesting because it is the same household.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 29, 2020, 07:40:45 AM

The psychology of all this is fascinating to watch, and anyone who does tend to watch the psychology of things cannot be surprised by ANY of this.  Now, it's COVID-19, but this behavior exhibits when ANY hot-button issue comes around.  You can see it here in any of the threads regarding interpersonal contact.   From courtesy flushing to abortion to gun control, we're an obstinate, stubborn people given to hypocrisy.  It almost seems to be our nature.  And of course, with the hypocrisy comes the inevitable rationalizing ("this is different/no different") and moralizing ("you have an obligation to others!"). 

And of course there is the media and social media (in particular) skewing perceptions to the point of uselessness.  I'd love to see some statistic on the number of people that are ACTUALLY flipping out and throwing the contents of their shopping carts when told to either put on a mask or leave the store.   

My view?  Tend your own garden.   I put my mask on, sometimes gloves, without fail.   If I encounter someone without a mask, I walk the other way or leave the store.   I have no inherent right to unimpeded progress in a store, or optimal sanitary conditions.  I may, or may not, say something to the store (depends on the store; if it's a small business, I will so they have as much information as possible to make a decision that's right for them.  If it's Lowe's or Home Depot, not going to bother) and I'm certainly not saying anything to the person.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 29, 2020, 08:08:22 AM

Studly, while I mostly agree, doesn't "tend to your own garden" maybe not apply to infectious diseases?

I mean, you can't say "Have HIV? Well, while if I did I would wear a condom, but tend to your own garden, don't wear one if you don't want to"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 29, 2020, 08:37:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on June 29, 2020, 07:40:45 AM

I'd love to see some statistic on the number of people that are ACTUALLY flipping out and throwing the contents of their shopping carts when told to either put on a mask or leave the store.   

And I'll bet they don't put the cart away!

Mrs.jingle texted this meme at me yesterday:

Those who have stayed inside, wore masks in public and socially distanced during this entire pandemic are the same people who are/were used to doing the whole group project by themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on June 29, 2020, 08:40:13 AM

 ^
Two snaps and a clap

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 29, 2020, 11:45:28 AM

Quote from: Adami on June 29, 2020, 08:08:22 AM

Studly, while I mostly agree, doesn't "tend to your own garden" maybe not apply to infectious diseases?

I mean, you can't say "Have HIV? Well, while if I did I would wear a condom, but tend to your own garden, don't wear one if you don't want to"

I'm not 1000% sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I don't think that's how I mean "tend your own garden".  It doesn't mean "do whatever you want".   It means everyone take care of their own space first.  THEN we can start to worry about the deplorables.   Wear your PPE (personal protective equipment, for those not in the know); distance; remove yourself from situations of risk/danger.   I know that sounds a little naive to some, but no more naive than thinking we can just bully or shame people into submission because "morals".   In any event, it's a starting point, not an ultimate goal.

Mike posted a thing on Twitter - something to the effect of "it's not about you; how can anyone be so selfish!" - and while I love the guy, I want to ask him what rock he's been living under for the past 25 years.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 29, 2020, 11:47:30 AM

Quote from: Stephanopoulos on June 29, 2020, 11:45:28 AM

Quote from: Adami on June 29, 2020, 08:08:22 AM

Studly, while I mostly agree, doesn't "tend to your own garden" maybe not apply to infectious diseases?

I mean, you can't say "Have HIV? Well, while if I did I would wear a condom, but tend to your own garden, don't wear one if you don't want to"

I'm not 1000% sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I don't think that's how I mean "tend your own garden".  It doesn't mean "do whatever you want".   It means everyone take care of their own space first.  THEN we can start to worry about the deplorables.   Wear your PPE (personal protective equipment, for those not in the know); distance; remove yourself from situations of risk/danger.   I know that sounds a little naive to some, but no more naive than thinking we can just bully or shame people into submission because "morals".   In any event, it's a starting point, not an ultimate goal.

Mike posted a thing on Twitter - something to the effect of "it's not about you; how can anyone be so selfish!" - and while I love the guy, I want to ask him what rock he's been living under for the past 25 years.

...a prog one?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 29, 2020, 01:04:55 PM

Quote from: Stadler on June 29, 2020, 11:45:28 AM

Quote from: Adami on June 29, 2020, 08:08:22 AM

Studly, while I mostly agree, doesn't "tend to your own garden" maybe not apply to infectious diseases?

I mean, you can't say "Have HIV? Well, while if I did I would wear a condom, but tend to your own garden, don't wear one if you don't want to"

I'm not 1000% sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I don't think that's how I mean "tend your own garden".  It doesn't mean "do whatever you want".   It means everyone take care of their own space first.  THEN we can start to worry about the deplorables.   Wear your PPE (personal protective equipment, for those not in the know); distance; remove yourself from situations of risk/danger.   I know that sounds a little naive to some, but no more naive than thinking we can just bully or shame people into submission because "morals".   In any event, it's a starting point, not an ultimate goal.

Mike posted a thing on Twitter - something to the effect of "it's not about you; how can anyone be so selfish!" - and while I love the guy, I want to ask him what rock he's been living under for the past 25 years.

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on June 29, 2020, 01:26:05 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 29, 2020, 01:04:55 PM

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.

Wearing a mask in public isn't putting society before your family.  It's a small inconvenience for the greater good, and also offers some protection for yourself and therefore, your family.  I'd hate to bring this illness into my home and watch my loved ones battle it.  I'm not afraid of it, but it's not something I want my family to go through either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: YtseJam on June 29, 2020, 02:21:36 PM

The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 29, 2020, 02:34:44 PM

Quote from: YtseJam on June 29, 2020, 02:21:36 PM

The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Correct.  The fact that doctors having done so for many decades, and doctors pretty unanimously saying otherwise (including every doctor I know personally) is obviously just a big lie.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 29, 2020, 02:38:44 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 29, 2020, 02:34:44 PM

Quote from: YtseJam on June 29, 2020, 02:21:36 PM

The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Correct.  The fact that doctors having done so for many decades, and doctors pretty unanimously saying otherwise (including every doctor I know personally) is obviously just a big lie.

Yeah I guess doctors just wear masks in operating rooms 'cause they like playing dress up.

Saying masks protecting people is bullshit is one of the dumbest things I've heard adults say during this pandemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on June 29, 2020, 02:47:31 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 29, 2020, 02:38:44 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 29, 2020, 02:34:44 PM

Quote from: YtseJam on June 29, 2020, 02:21:36 PM

The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Correct.  The fact that doctors having done so for many decades, and doctors pretty unanimously saying otherwise (including every doctor I know personally) is obviously just a big lie.

Yeah I guess doctors just wear masks in operating rooms 'cause they like playing dress up.

They're just kinky like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 29, 2020, 02:48:02 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 29, 2020, 02:38:44 PM

Saying masks protecting people is bullshit is one of the dumbest things I've heard adults say during this pandemic.

Then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the antivaxxers/flat-earthers/conspiracy-theorists saying that it goes beyond being not helpful, and is itself an active health risk and part of Bill Gates' conspiracy to make us inject death vaccines.  Trust me, my friend--it gets a LOT dumber.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 29, 2020, 02:49:27 PM

Buddy, that's just common sense. I can feel the 5G generating corona in me right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on June 29, 2020, 02:57:43 PM

Mask saves people and I have proof:

(https://i.imgur.com/ccF6sXE.png)

A little levity helps as well  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 29, 2020, 05:48:56 PM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 29, 2020, 02:49:27 PM

Buddy, that's just common sense. I can feel the 5G generating corona in me right now.

Hopefully the wind turbine cancer will kill us first.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on June 29, 2020, 10:19:13 PM

I thought Bill's plan was to put micro-GPS's in all of us so he can track us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:39:57 AM

Quote from: Grappler on June 29, 2020, 01:26:05 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 29, 2020, 01:04:55 PM

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.

Wearing a mask in public isn't putting society before your family.  It's a small inconvenience for the greater good, and also offers some protection for yourself and therefore, your family.  I'd hate to bring this illness into my home and watch my loved ones battle it.  I'm not afraid of it, but it's not something I want my family to go through either.

I never said it was.  What I mean is the purpose why I wear masks in public, use hand sanitizer, wash my hands and all the rest.  I don't do it for society, I do it for myself and my family.  I just reject the idea that if I do it differently then what someone else's idea is of how I should do it, that that somehow makes me selfish.

Not wearing masks and washing hands does not make someone selfish, it just makes them unwise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 30, 2020, 08:43:51 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:39:57 AM

Quote from: Grappler on June 29, 2020, 01:26:05 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on June 29, 2020, 01:04:55 PM

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.

Wearing a mask in public isn't putting society before your family.  It's a small inconvenience for the greater good, and also offers some protection for yourself and therefore, your family.  I'd hate to bring this illness into my home and watch my loved ones battle it.  I'm not afraid of it, but it's not something I want my family to go through either.

I never said it was.  What I mean is the purpose why I wear masks in public, use hand sanitizer, wash my hands and all the rest.  I don't do it for society, I do it for myself and my family.  I just reject the idea that if I do it differently then what someone else's idea is of how I should do it, that that somehow makes me selfish.

Not wearing masks and washing hands does not make someone selfish, it just makes them unwise.

It definitely makes some people unwise.

But if "I don't feel like doing XYZ and I don't care about anyone else who is affected by this" isn't selfish, then I don't know how you would define selfish.

Again, not to say that's what all or even most people are doing, but there's definitely a good amount of that mentality. I'd very much call that selfish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 08:46:37 AM

Also, I was under the impression that the wearing of a mask Is primarily to stop the wearer from spreading more that to protect the wearer from others.  So not wearing a mask is being selfish to a large degree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:51:23 AM

Quote from: YtseJam on June 29, 2020, 02:21:36 PM

The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Yeah, I read an interesting opinion on another forum where a medical professional strongly pushed back on the notion that masks protect others from the wearer.  Rather he said that maks protect the wearer from others and he gave examples of why medical professionals have long worn gloves and masks long before all this started and the reasons behind it.  I wish I knew where I read it so I could link it here.

But I agree with that view even though I'm not an expert on this at all.  But I wear a mask in public places to protect myself and my family does it for the same reason.  But on the other hand there is some evidence that suggests that masks don't help nearly as much as a lot of folks think they do.

But yeah, 5g, vaccines, wind turbines are definately all good reasons why we should not wear masks and we will all get cancer and tracked everywhere we go until we die.  Except maybe the tracking devices that we carry around with us every day, that sounds a little far fetched to me :D.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 30, 2020, 09:06:29 AM

I know plenty of people that have a tendency to spit on occasion when they speak or let out a laugh. If corona can exist in and be spread by your saliva, I fail to see how wearing a mask does anything but help stop the projection of that saliva.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on June 30, 2020, 09:23:30 AM

Exactly.  The mask absolutely helps stop the spread of germs from the wearer to others.  Whether it's more to protect the wearer, or others, is apparently still being disputed, but I can't see how anyone with a brain doesn't see how wearing a mask helps stop the spread.

Therefore, yes, someone choosing to not wear a mask is being selfish, because they are putting their convenience over the health of others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on June 30, 2020, 09:26:22 AM

Brushing your teeth doesn't help prevent cavities because I brushed my teeth every day as a kid and the dentist still found cavities. Fake hygiene news

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on June 30, 2020, 09:29:42 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 30, 2020, 09:26:22 AM

Brushing your teeth doesn't help prevent cavities because I brushed my teeth every day as a kid and the dentist still found cavities. Fake hygiene news

lol you brushed your teeth?

Sheep.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on June 30, 2020, 09:38:57 AM

Quote from: Adami on June 30, 2020, 09:29:42 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on June 30, 2020, 09:26:22 AM

Brushing your teeth doesn't help prevent cavities because I brushed my teeth every day as a kid and the dentist still found cavities. Fake hygiene news

lol you brushed your teeth?

Sheep.

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on June 30, 2020, 10:20:17 AM

The "selfish" argument is fascinating to me, though.   Since when has America NOT been selfish?   Obviously, there are degrees of consequences to that, but we can sit here from now until the next Tool album comes out listing ways in which American citizens have systematically displayed their selfishness for all to see, with varying degrees of impact to others.  We have entire threads (some serious, some not) on degrees of selfishness.

Maybe it's just me, but I just think MOST people are selfish in some form or fashion, and so it is what it is.  On the odd occasion I do go out, I try to be aware and steer clear of the hondo who feels like going bareback. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 10:28:51 AM

Humans are inherently selfish.  Self preservation is genetic.  But as a society, like in WWII, we come together for a common good.  Ford makes airplanes, housewives become riveters, and men get killed in Europe.  We expect that certain outside threats to our society result in some type of group beneficial behavior.  Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:16:57 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 10:28:51 AM

Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.

My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period in previous years? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which to me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 12:22:33 PM

Wait....before I address your response.....60k died from the flu in the same 6 month time period?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:23:02 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 12:22:33 PM

Wait....before I address your response.....60k died from the flu in the same 6 month time period?

Not this year, but in other flu seasons they have.

Actually just looked up the CDC estimated flu death in the 2019-2020 flu season and it's 24,000-62,000 dead in the US. I doubt they'll ever really know due to the overlap in symptoms to Covid and lack of testing until recently.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 30, 2020, 12:31:03 PM

I mean, that means we've had twice as many deaths already from corona and that's with some pretty extreme measures being taken. Not to mention you can get vaccinated for the flu, which is I would assume is a far more effective way to ensure you don't spread it to other people. If there were a vaccine for corona and people chose to get that and then didn't wear masks, I don't think anyone would be calling them selfish. But that option doesn't exist now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 30, 2020, 12:31:03 PM

I mean, that means we've had twice as many deaths already from corona and that's with some pretty extreme measures being taken. Not to mention you can get vaccinated for the flu, which is I would assume is a far more effective way to ensure you don't spread it to other people. If there were a vaccine for corona and people chose to get that and then didn't wear masks, I don't think anyone would be calling them selfish. But that option doesn't exist now.

Do we call people selfish who don't get the flu vaccine and don't wear a mask? Not that I've ever heard. Certainly not to the self righteous extent that it's happening now.

This is probably a dumb line of argument to go down. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't wear masks or do what we can to prevent the spread of Covid. I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:16:57 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 10:28:51 AM

Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.

My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which it me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.

You raise some good points.  And ultimately, it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, which admittedly does make wherever we draw the line somewhat arbitrary and subjective.  And I get why that, in turn, makes it unpalatable for some people when others label the failure to comply as "selfish."  I get it.

But here's the thing:  The risk/benefit analysis is much different with the pandemic than with other diseases.  This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu.  And while the fatality rate has been only double the rate of a bad flu year, even if we say x2 of some of the worst flu years is acceptable, there are still some key differences.  First, it is pretty much undisputed that the fatality numbers are what they are only because of the extreme measures taken to reduce the spread.  Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu.  Third, severe respiratory and/or organ complications are much more common than with the common flu.  These facts are all virtually undisputed in the medical community.

Granted, even with no protective measures taken, the odds of getting this are still very small.  But they are a few magnitudes higher than the common flu, and even putting aside mortality rates, the chances of severe health complications are a few magnitudes higher.  And by taking very simple measures (wearing a mask and/or social distancing in public, not touching one's face, and frequent, thorough handwashing), it is proven to reduce the infection rate by several magnitudes. 

To oversimplify all of the above:  We know that although the chances of getting it are fairly small, the potential consequences of getting it are much worse than most other common diseases, the infection rate is much higher, and simple things can drastically reduce the changes of spreading it.  I could have it and not know it yet.  If I get together with my friend, and I do NOT take these simple precautions, I increase his odds several times over of getting something that could pose a serious health risk, than if I did not take those precautions.  Several times over.  As much as I try not to judge and label others' intentions, it is hard for me to not see that as unacceptably "selfish" given what we know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 30, 2020, 12:45:45 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:16:57 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 10:28:51 AM

Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.

My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which it me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.

You raise some good points.  And ultimately, it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, which admittedly does make wherever we draw the line somewhat arbitrary and subjective.  And I get why that, in turn, makes it unpalatable for some people when others label the failure to comply as "selfish."  I get it.

But here's the thing:  The risk/benefit analysis is much different with the pandemic than with other diseases.  This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu.  And while the fatality rate has been only double the rate of a bad flu year, even if we say x2 of some of the worst flu years is acceptable, there are still some key differences.  First, it is pretty much undisputed that the fatality numbers are what they are only because of the extreme measures taken to reduce the spread.  Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu.  Third, severe respiratory and/or organ complications are much more common than with the common flu.  These facts are all virtually undisputed in the medical community.

Good post. I just want to expand on the bold a smidge because I believe it's part of that key difference (my bad if this is what you were saying). There will be a lot more life-long effects that stem from this as well when compared to other annual viruses. You just don't have respiratory or organ problems while infected and in the hospital. Permanent damage seems to be common. There are people that got this are never going to breathe correctly again, even years after all other symptoms have gone away. The permanently poor lung function will lead to further organ issues and damage down the road.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:46:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:38:07 PM

I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Not to be redundant, but this crystalizes the issue for me, and is a good discussion point for what I just said.  I don't think it is arbitrary because 60k vs. 120k.  Because it isn't just 60k vs. 120k.  It is:
-120k that would have been __________ [whatever the unknown number is that we cannot know, but DO know that it would be a lot higher] if not for EXTREME measures having been taken; AND
-This is 120k IN ADDITION TO the already 60k from the flu; AND
-MUCH more severe health complications for a lot who are not even part of that 120k; AND
-The severe worldwide economic crisis we are in; AND
-The severe healthcare crisis in our hospitals and clinics.

Bottom line is that, unlike the typical flu season, we are in worldwide crisis mode, and failure to do these simple, easy things is, at best, prolonging the healthcare and economic crisis or, at worst, contributing to it.  That is a key difference, in my opinion.


EDIT:  Yeah, Chino.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:57:51 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:39:11 PM

This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu. 

Tangential point, but why isn't the flu considered a pandemic? It's a global spread of an infectious disease that kills hundreds of thousands every year with hundreds of millions of people contracting the disease. Do we just not consider it a pandemic because it's a relatively known disease and expected?

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:39:11 PM

Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu. 

I'm not convinced this is really true. Covid is far behind a typical flu year. Even with a vaccine, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of the US (25-50 million people) gets the flu in a typical flu season. That is an order of magnitude higher than Covid in a similar time period (2.5 million). Yes, we had the shutdowns and stuff, but do you really think Covid cases are 10-20 times lower than they could have been? I thought I saw the CDC estimated that the stay-at-home orders cut cases in half at one point. Also, there are certainly many more than 2.5 million known cases since testing has been limited and there are so many asymptomatic cases. So there's really no way to know for sure. The point being that it doesn't seem like Covid spreads tons faster or easier than the flu does. They both spread quite easily it seems.

I'm not trying to say that Covid isn't worse than the flu or trying to downplay the seriousness of it. Serious complication are certainly more prevalent. I just like to point out the arbitrariness of it all. I think a large part of it is that the flu is a relatively understood disease, so 60k deaths and 50 million cases in a 6 month period is just normal so we don't think twice even though that's a hell of a lot of people. The coronavirus is new, and not "part of the plan", so we all freak out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 12:59:49 PM

Quote from: Chino on June 30, 2020, 12:45:45 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:16:57 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 10:28:51 AM

Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.

My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which it me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.

You raise some good points.  And ultimately, it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, which admittedly does make wherever we draw the line somewhat arbitrary and subjective.  And I get why that, in turn, makes it unpalatable for some people when others label the failure to comply as "selfish."  I get it.

But here's the thing:  The risk/benefit analysis is much different with the pandemic than with other diseases.  This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu.  And while the fatality rate has been only double the rate of a bad flu year, even if we say x2 of some of the worst flu years is acceptable, there are still some key differences.  First, it is pretty much undisputed that the fatality numbers are what they are only because of the extreme measures taken to reduce the spread.  Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu.  Third, severe respiratory and/or organ complications are much more common than with the common flu.  These facts are all virtually undisputed in the medical community.

Good post. I just want to expand on the bold a smidge because I believe it's part of that key difference (my bad if this is what you were saying). There will be a lot more life-long effects that stem from this as well when compared to other annual viruses. You just don't have respiratory or organ problems while infected and in the hospital. Permanent damage seems to be common. There are people that got this are never going to breathe correctly again, even years after all other symptoms have gone away. The permanently poor lung function will lead to further organ issues and damage down the road.

This is what scares me personally.  I am health enough that my chances of dying are really low....but that doesn't mean I wont be damaged long term.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:04:02 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:46:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:38:07 PM

I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Not to be redundant, but this crystalizes the issue for me, and is a good discussion point for what I just said.  I don't think it is arbitrary because 60k vs. 120k.  Because it isn't just 60k vs. 120k.  It is:
-120k that would have been __________ [whatever the unknown number is that we cannot know, but DO know that it would be a lot higher] if not for EXTREME measures having been taken; AND
-This is 120k IN ADDITION TO the already 60k from the flu; AND
-MUCH more severe health complications for a lot who are not even part of that 120k; AND
-The severe worldwide economic crisis we are in; AND
-The severe healthcare crisis in our hospitals and clinics.

Bottom line is that, unlike the typical flu season, we are in worldwide crisis mode, and failure to do these simple, easy things is, at best, prolonging the healthcare and economic crisis or, at worst, contributing to it.  That is a key difference, in my opinion.


EDIT:  Yeah, Chino.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.   :tup

And the average flu death number is more like 36k for the whole year.....Coronavirus is at 120k at six months (and as you said......with all the preventative measures taken).

I think once a vaccine is out, the reactions to masks will be more flu-like.

I also have a VERY bad feeling about coronavirus moving forward....its going to get worse again, especially in several specific states.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 01:08:10 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:57:51 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:39:11 PM

Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu. 

I'm not convinced this is really true.

Not sure what to say about that, other than just pointing out that the data and the vast majority of doctors and virologists agreeing that it is the case.  I don't think the numbers you are pointing to make the point you are trying to make.  When studying known, isolated outbreaks where they are able to pinpoint the spread among individuals known to be present with an infected person, my understanding is that those studies have universally shown a higher transmission/infection rate.

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:57:51 PM

The coronavirus is new, and not "part of the plan", so we all freak out.

I think that is perfectly valid in talking about a lot of the overreactions.  But the specific thing we are discussing is wearing masks.  And, again, it is such a minor thing that has such a provable role in likely reducing transmission and infection (coupled with other reasonable measures) that I don't equate it to the "freaking out."  It is just a question of whether that measure is reasonable, and although I dislike wearing the masks as well, I cannot see how it isn't a reasonable, selfless thing to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 01:09:19 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:04:02 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:46:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:38:07 PM

I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Not to be redundant, but this crystalizes the issue for me, and is a good discussion point for what I just said.  I don't think it is arbitrary because 60k vs. 120k.  Because it isn't just 60k vs. 120k.  It is:
-120k that would have been __________ [whatever the unknown number is that we cannot know, but DO know that it would be a lot higher] if not for EXTREME measures having been taken; AND
-This is 120k IN ADDITION TO the already 60k from the flu; AND
-MUCH more severe health complications for a lot who are not even part of that 120k; AND
-The severe worldwide economic crisis we are in; AND
-The severe healthcare crisis in our hospitals and clinics.

Bottom line is that, unlike the typical flu season, we are in worldwide crisis mode, and failure to do these simple, easy things is, at best, prolonging the healthcare and economic crisis or, at worst, contributing to it.  That is a key difference, in my opinion.


EDIT:  Yeah, Chino.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.   :tup

And the average flu death number is more like 36k for the whole year.....Coronavirus is at 120k at six months (and as you said......with all the preventative measures taken).

I think once a vaccine is out, the reactions to masks will be more flu-like.

I also have a VERY bad feeling about coronavirus moving forward....its going to get worse again, especially in several specific states.

The flu season is not 12 months. So it's a similar 6 month time frame to compare to Covid. The difference is that the flu is petering out after 6 months.

The real test for Covid will be if hospitalizations and deaths pick up. More testing is of course going to show more cases and there certainly is a spike over the last few weeks. But so far deaths haven't spiked. Of course there will be a lag since people aren't dying instantly when they catch Covid. The next few weeks will be very telling. I fully anticipate more shut downs if deaths and hospitalizations spike, perhaps going farther than the first time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:16:58 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 01:09:19 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:04:02 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 12:46:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:38:07 PM

I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Not to be redundant, but this crystalizes the issue for me, and is a good discussion point for what I just said.  I don't think it is arbitrary because 60k vs. 120k.  Because it isn't just 60k vs. 120k.  It is:
-120k that would have been __________ [whatever the unknown number is that we cannot know, but DO know that it would be a lot higher] if not for EXTREME measures having been taken; AND
-This is 120k IN ADDITION TO the already 60k from the flu; AND
-MUCH more severe health complications for a lot who are not even part of that 120k; AND
-The severe worldwide economic crisis we are in; AND
-The severe healthcare crisis in our hospitals and clinics.

Bottom line is that, unlike the typical flu season, we are in worldwide crisis mode, and failure to do these simple, easy things is, at best, prolonging the healthcare and economic crisis or, at worst, contributing to it.  That is a key difference, in my opinion.


EDIT:  Yeah, Chino.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.   :tup

And the average flu death number is more like 36k for the whole year.....Coronavirus is at 120k at six months (and as you said......with all the preventative measures taken).

I think once a vaccine is out, the reactions to masks will be more flu-like.

I also have a VERY bad feeling about coronavirus moving forward....its going to get worse again, especially in several specific states.

The flu season is not 12 months. So it's a similar 6 month time frame to compare to Covid. The difference is that the flu is petering out after 6 months.

The real test for Covid will be if hospitalizations and deaths pick up. More testing is of course going to show more cases and there certainly is a spike. But so far deaths haven't spiked. Of course there will be a lag since people aren't dying instantly when they catch Covid. The next few weeks will be very telling. I fully anticipate more shut downs, perhaps going farther than the first time.

OK six months....but it looks like we don't expect the same from Covid....doesn't that just prove the point even further?  Covid is not the flu.  It is much different and more dangerous.  I guess to answer your question, society as a whole, has overwhelmingly done the calculus (including the medical community) and determined masks really are necessary.  I'm ok with that.  They really aren't a big deal.  I suspect that many more people will continue to wear them after a vaccine is found.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 01:20:18 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:16:58 PM

I suspect that many more people will continue to wear them after a vaccine is found.

Interesting.  I know that for me, at least as of right now, I don't see myself doing that.  But it will depend.  For instance, maybe we have a vaccine, but it is still spreading like crazy for awhile despite the vaccine being present.  Or something else I don't foresee.  But once we finally get this thing corralled, I don't see the need for that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 01:27:32 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:16:58 PM

OK six months....but it looks like we don't expect the same from Covid....doesn't that just prove the point even further?  Covid is not the flu.  It is much different and more dangerous.  I guess to answer your question, society as a whole, has overwhelmingly done the calculus (including the medical community) and determined masks really are necessary.  I'm ok with that.  They really aren't a big deal.  I suspect that many more people will continue to wear them after a vaccine is found.

Yeah, I kind of lost track that this whole thing started while talking about masks. :) I agree they're not a huge deal and I wear one in higher risk situations.

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 01:20:18 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:16:58 PM

I suspect that many more people will continue to wear them after a vaccine is found.

Interesting.  I know that for me, at least as of right now, I don't see myself doing that.  But it will depend.  For instance, maybe we have a vaccine, but it is still spreading like crazy for awhile despite the vaccine being present.  Or something else I don't foresee.  But once we finally get this thing corralled, I don't see the need for that.

I will gladly burn my masks the day Covid fades away, but I think it will take some time for them to completely fade from view, if they ever completely do. This kind of brings me back to my original point, that there are tons of reasons (the flu being the largest) to wear them all the time. Some may see that and continue to wear them. But I suspect 6 months after a vaccine is widely available, or Covid burns itself out, whichever comes first, it will be an extremely rare sight to see a person wearing a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:30:27 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 30, 2020, 01:20:18 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:16:58 PM

I suspect that many more people will continue to wear them after a vaccine is found.

Interesting.  I know that for me, at least as of right now, I don't see myself doing that.  But it will depend.  For instance, maybe we have a vaccine, but it is still spreading like crazy for awhile despite the vaccine being present.  Or something else I don't foresee.  But once we finally get this thing corralled, I don't see the need for that.

Its not about having a need for it....I just meant that we will see more masks in everyday life after coronavirus than before.  You saw people wearing masks before coronavirus....I just think some/many/a few will continue to wear them going forward. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on June 30, 2020, 01:31:58 PM

Double post

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on June 30, 2020, 02:08:20 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/us-buys-up-world-stock-of-key-covid-19-drug

Wasn't sure which thread this should be posted in. US buys up world stock of key Covid-19 drug for the next three months.

Quote

Remdesivir, the first drug approved by licensing authorities in the US to treat Covid-19, is made by Gilead and has been shown to help people recover faster from the disease. The first 140,000 doses, supplied to drug trials around the world, have been used up. The Trump administration has now bought more than 500,000 doses, which is all of Gilead’s production for July and 90% of August and September.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 03:24:18 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on June 30, 2020, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 30, 2020, 12:31:03 PM

I mean, that means we've had twice as many deaths already from corona and that's with some pretty extreme measures being taken. Not to mention you can get vaccinated for the flu, which is I would assume is a far more effective way to ensure you don't spread it to other people. If there were a vaccine for corona and people chose to get that and then didn't wear masks, I don't think anyone would be calling them selfish. But that option doesn't exist now.

Do we call people selfish who don't get the flu vaccine and don't wear a mask? Not that I've ever heard. Certainly not to the self righteous extent that it's happening now.

This is probably a dumb line of argument to go down. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't wear masks or do what we can to prevent the spread of Covid. I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Bingo

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on June 30, 2020, 05:17:19 PM

The wife of a coworker tested, positive, so the whole staff had to go get tested today. Damn they stab that thing deep. Results on Thursday, I should be ok since I only spend about two hours with the main staff, and about ten minutes of that the coworker is there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 30, 2020, 05:19:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on June 30, 2020, 05:17:19 PM

The wife of a coworker tested, positive, so the whole staff had to go get tested today. Damn they stab that thing deep. Results on Thursday, I should be ok since I only spend about two hours with the main staff, and about ten minutes of that the coworker is there.

Good Luck  :tup    the video I've seen of that test looks pretty intrusive......did it hurt at all or just a weird discomfort?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on June 30, 2020, 05:21:26 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 30, 2020, 05:19:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on June 30, 2020, 05:17:19 PM

The wife of a coworker tested, positive, so the whole staff had to go get tested today. Damn they stab that thing deep. Results on Thursday, I should be ok since I only spend about two hours with the main staff, and about ten minutes of that the coworker is there.

Good Luck  :tup    the video I've seen of that test looks pretty intrusive......did it hurt at all or just a weird discomfort?

Very, very weird discomfort. And there's some sort of solution on the swab, which irritates the fuck out of the sinuses. (Plural, they do both)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on June 30, 2020, 06:37:40 PM

A co-worker had her gall bladder out last week and had to get tested for COVID before the surgery, and she said it was deep, but really only burned for like a second or two and then it was over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on June 30, 2020, 10:55:34 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on June 30, 2020, 05:19:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on June 30, 2020, 05:17:19 PM

The wife of a coworker tested, positive, so the whole staff had to go get tested today. Damn they stab that thing deep. Results on Thursday, I should be ok since I only spend about two hours with the main staff, and about ten minutes of that the coworker is there.

Good Luck  :tup    the video I've seen of that test looks pretty intrusive......did it hurt at all or just a weird discomfort?

Was tested at the start of April for showing symptoms similar to Covid, and it’s not what I’d call painful, but definitely uncomfortable. Imagine taking a narrow Q-tip and jamming it as far up you probably nose as possible, and swishing it around for 5-10 seconds. Burned like when you accidentally flush liquid into or out of your nose. Not pleasant, but not overly terrible either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on July 01, 2020, 07:00:28 AM

We have over 30 positive patients here in my hospital and multiple PUi's awaiting results. Also multiple staff have been infected. For us here in Central Florida, it's exponentially worse than at the peak of the panic frenzy.

Feels like groundhog day....in a bad way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 08:02:43 AM

Yea, Florida is getting pretty bad down there.

I finally got my hair cut yesterday.  It was a fine experience, had to just wear my mask the entire time, fill out a form stating Im not sick and if I get covid that I need to notify the hair salon, and a temp scan.  While cutting my hair I had to hold the mask over my face when cutting around my ears.  It was a bit awkward but it was fine overall. 

....

after my haircut I stopped by my sisters for my nieces 2nd birthday.  She initially said it was a drive through birthday thing, but then it was raining a bit so she said to come in... and her husbands side of the family was there and they don't give a crap about social distancing, it was weird walking in with a mask and everyone just kind of like "take that off and shake my hand" ugh.  I did it and felt uncomfortable but luckily the weather cleared up right away and we were able to just chill outside and keep our distance.  In the end, it was nice to see my sister and nieces for the first time in months.  The little rascals said they missed me and it melted my heart.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 08:06:29 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 08:02:43 AM

it was weird walking in with a mask and everyone just kind of like "take that off and shake my hand" ugh.  I did it and felt uncomfortable

Cram, I would be one of those people you are talking about.

My wife's fucking sister wouldn't even pose with our son on his graduation day, never mind wearing a mask outdoors the entire time we were talking to them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 08:02:43 AM

Yea, Florida is getting pretty bad down there.

I finally got my hair cut yesterday.  It was a fine experience, had to just wear my mask the entire time, fill out a form stating Im not sick and if I get covid that I need to notify the hair salon, and a temp scan.  While cutting my hair I had to hold the mask over my face when cutting around my ears.  It was a bit awkward but it was fine overall. 

....

after my haircut I stopped by my sisters for my nieces 2nd birthday.  She initially said it was a drive through birthday thing, but then it was raining a bit so she said to come in... and her husbands side of the family was there and they don't give a crap about social distancing, it was weird walking in with a mask and everyone just kind of like "take that off and shake my hand" ugh.  I did it and felt uncomfortable but luckily the weather cleared up right away and we were able to just chill outside and keep our distance.  In the end, it was nice to see my sister and nieces for the first time in months.  The little rascals said they missed me and it melted my heart.

Yeah, I know what you mean.  As a knee jerk reation I shook someone's hand the other day who extended it to me after I had finished helping them with something.  It felt really weird.  And I know I shouldn't have done it, but it was a habit reaction and I didn't want to offend them.  But I sanitized my hands soon afterwards.

I'll be honest, even though it felt weird to shake someone's hand, I sure do miss that kind of human interaction.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 01, 2020, 10:59:35 AM

Cram, I’m with you. At my Father’s “service”, I didn’t touch anyone, and was the only one wearing a mask when the group was in relatively close quarters.  Hell, his partner - whom I’d never met before - took a step towards me like she was gonna hug me!  Nah-uh, lady. I don’t get people sometimes. It’s not like we start glowing when infected - nobody knows when they might have it until a few days after you’ve started spreading it around.

I’d rather make the mistake of being too cautious, than the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough. That’s me though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 01, 2020, 11:19:40 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 01, 2020, 10:59:35 AM

I’d rather make the mistake of being too cautious, than the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough. That’s me though.

For the most part, I agree.  And I don't understand the thought process to the contrary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 11:34:14 AM

It was also the first time really being in close contact with a group of people, including family.  So, for me, it feels like baby steps.  I wasn't terribly comfortable walking into that house with a bunch of other people as if nothing was going on, but if it were just my sister and husband, I don't think I'd feel so uncomfortable.  My sisters husband hugged me when I left and totally felt like this:

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

I sure do miss that kind of human interaction.

So it's just a mix of feelings really, trying to be safe and follow guidelines but also trying to slowly ease back to some normalcy. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 01, 2020, 11:51:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 11:34:14 AM

trying to be safe and follow guidelines but also trying to slowly ease back to some normalcy.

Unfortunately my current home State of Florida calls you a pussy sheep libtard, asks someone to hold his beer, and tells everyone that He is a golden god as he jumps into a crowd of people not wearing masks, and chanting its their right to work, and to stop infringing on their liberties.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 01, 2020, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 01, 2020, 11:19:40 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 01, 2020, 10:59:35 AM

I’d rather make the mistake of being too cautious, than the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough. That’s me though.

For the most part, I agree.  And I don't understand the thought process to the contrary.

+1 to both.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 12:00:18 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 01, 2020, 11:51:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 11:34:14 AM

trying to be safe and follow guidelines but also trying to slowly ease back to some normalcy.

Unfortunately my current home State of Florida calls you a pussy sheep libtard, asks someone to hold his beer, and tells everyone that He is a golden god as he jumps into a crowd of people not wearing masks, and chanting its their right to work, and to stop infringing on their liberties.

Yup, my parents in FL can attest to this.  Interestingly though, my parents are pretty big right wingers and yet they still wear their masks and stay home.  I think being older and with existing health issues has made my parents see beyond the politicization of the masks, which makes me feel better about their safety.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 12:19:50 PM

I've written two posts but after re-reading them, I feel like I'm going to come off like a dick, and that's not my intention. I've scrapped them both.

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

I'll be honest, even though it felt weird to shake someone's hand, I sure do miss that kind of human interaction.

I'm a hand shaker, so not being able to do this, now, and likely going forward has me bummed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 01, 2020, 12:22:59 PM

I always found shaking hands to be rather annoying. Looking back at the office life, I would hate having to walk into a room with 12 people I didn't know and have to touch all of them before forgetting their names 8 seconds later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 01, 2020, 12:23:53 PM

Hand shaking has its time and place, but doing it by default is kind of annoying. I wouldn't be sad at all if that tradition dies because of Covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 01, 2020, 12:35:45 PM

While I am a shaker & hugger, something my sister (a doctor) told me really left a mark: "if you wish to go back shaking hands soon, don't shake them now"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 12:58:48 PM

As someone who has naturally clammy palms, I would be totally cool never shaking hands again.  I hate it so much and I'm sure who ever shakes my hand wishes they hadn't  :lol  I also hate the machoness of the firm handshake. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 01, 2020, 03:06:59 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 12:00:18 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 01, 2020, 11:51:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 11:34:14 AM

trying to be safe and follow guidelines but also trying to slowly ease back to some normalcy.

Unfortunately my current home State of Florida calls you a pussy sheep libtard, asks someone to hold his beer, and tells everyone that He is a golden god as he jumps into a crowd of people not wearing masks, and chanting its their right to work, and to stop infringing on their liberties.

Yup, my parents in FL can attest to this.  Interestingly though, my parents are pretty big right wingers and yet they still wear their masks and stay home.  I think being older and with existing health issues has made my parents see beyond the politicization of the masks, which makes me feel better about their safety.

My parents and brother are in Florida.  For the most part, where they are, people are complying.   My dad - who is very pro-Trump - is also very much not online, so for him, there's no real propaganda around it, it's pure medical/pragmatic.  He is handicapped, and mom is starting to feel her age, so for them, they don't go out, and when they do, they wear a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 03:10:15 PM

After thinking they may not come up at all, my parents just flew up for the summer last week. Got out just in time hopefully.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 01, 2020, 03:12:42 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 12:19:50 PM

I've written two posts but after re-reading them, I feel like I'm going to come off like a dick, and that's not my intention. I've scrapped them both.

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

I'll be honest, even though it felt weird to shake someone's hand, I sure do miss that kind of human interaction.

I'm a hand shaker, so not being able to do this, now, and likely going forward has me bummed.

I am too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 01, 2020, 03:12:53 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 12:19:50 PM

I've written two posts but after re-reading them, I feel like I'm going to come off like a dick, and that's not my intention. I've scrapped them both.

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

I'll be honest, even though it felt weird to shake someone's hand, I sure do miss that kind of human interaction.

I'm a hand shaker, so not being able to do this, now, and likely going forward has me bummed.

I am also a handshaker. Kind off odd to realise my last handshake was in the beginning of March.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 04:09:39 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 01, 2020, 03:12:42 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 12:19:50 PM

I've written two posts but after re-reading them, I feel like I'm going to come off like a dick, and that's not my intention. I've scrapped them both.

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

I'll be honest, even though it felt weird to shake someone's hand, I sure do miss that kind of human interaction.

I'm a hand shaker, so not being able to do this, now, and likely going forward has me bummed.

I am too.

Me as well.  When you're really happy to see someone and then get a firm handshake, man that's a good feeling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 01, 2020, 04:20:42 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 01, 2020, 03:12:53 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 12:19:50 PM

I've written two posts but after re-reading them, I feel like I'm going to come off like a dick, and that's not my intention. I've scrapped them both.

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 01, 2020, 10:22:24 AM

I'll be honest, even though it felt weird to shake someone's hand, I sure do miss that kind of human interaction.

I'm a hand shaker, so not being able to do this, now, and likely going forward has me bummed.

I am also a handshaker. Kind off odd to realise my last handshake was in the beginning of March.

Agree with the hand shaking. Miss it already.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 01, 2020, 05:40:28 PM

I keep getting emails from things like museums, libraries, and movie theaters talking about their plans to open soon. I always want to reply in a fake southern accent "y'all realize they're gonna shut this all down again soon, right?"

I know they need to continue their plans to reopen, in some cases their very survival depends on it. But it seems like the writing is on the wall that more stay at home orders are coming for most states.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 06:21:00 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 08:06:29 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 08:02:43 AM

it was weird walking in with a mask and everyone just kind of like "take that off and shake my hand" ugh.  I did it and felt uncomfortable

Cram, I would be one of those people you are talking about.

My wife's fucking sister wouldn't even pose with our son on his graduation day, never mind wearing a mask outdoors the entire time we were talking to them.

But she came.  That should mean something.  She could have just stayed home and probably been a lot more comfortable.  But she came - if that means wearing a mask all day and not getting too close to people, so be it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 06:33:15 PM

So I don't want to paint her in a bad light. She has been an amazing aunt to my kids. Amazing.

But it goes to show that people are losing their minds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 06:52:46 PM

How does it show that?  I was a little worried that maybe I made an assumption, and she only went because her own kid was graduating.  And maybe she hadn't been such a great aunt.  But she has.  doesn't seem like a sign of a person that's losing her mind at all. Seems like someone who is trying to keep herself and others healthy, while also still being really supportive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 07:02:55 PM

Quote from: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 06:52:46 PM

How does it show that?  I was a little worried that maybe I made an assumption, and she only went because her own kid was graduating.  And maybe she hadn't been such a great aunt.  But she has.  doesn't seem like a sign of a person that's losing her mind at all. Seems like someone who is trying to keep herself and others healthy, while also still being really supportive.

So I mentioned a few posts ago that I tried to make a post and scrapped it twice because I wasn't happy with how it was worded. But one of the points I was going to make was that taking the cautious or safe position will never be wrong.

I don't know how to explain it but we were out side, and well, I was disappointed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 01, 2020, 07:12:48 PM

I have mixed feelings about handshakes. Sometimes I feel they are appropriate and welcome, other times I just want to say hello and lift my hand in acknowledgment.

I have been out shopping for work almost once a day the past couple of weeks and can count on one hand the number of mask-less shoppers I've seen.

Just got an email from our school district saying there will be some sort of hybrid in-school/at-home plan in the fall. There are a ton of working families who are going to be struggling with this, us included.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 07:34:36 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 07:02:55 PM

Quote from: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 06:52:46 PM

How does it show that?  I was a little worried that maybe I made an assumption, and she only went because her own kid was graduating.  And maybe she hadn't been such a great aunt.  But she has.  doesn't seem like a sign of a person that's losing her mind at all. Seems like someone who is trying to keep herself and others healthy, while also still being really supportive.

So I mentioned a few posts ago that I tried to make a post and scrapped it twice because I wasn't happy with how it was worded. But one of the points I was going to make was that taking the cautious or safe position will never be wrong.

I don't know how to explain it but we were out side, and well, I was disappointed.

I think because you work in the public and are exposed every single day that you don't feel the same cautiousness that others feel.  While it sucks that your son didn't get the proper ceremony he deserved, you even admit you can't be wrong being cautious so why do you hold this over the aunt?  Does she have underlying health issues?  Does she have a family that she will go home to?  I think Lethean has a point about just being there.  Everyone is going to go about this differently and many cautiously like myself.  I'd be really upset if my sister was mad that I didn't kiss my nieces or something yesterday.  I hugged them both but I'd hate to think my own cautiousness (not just for myself, but mostly for others) would offend someone I care for especially if I did already put myself outside of my comfort zone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 07:40:55 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 07:34:36 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 07:02:55 PM

Quote from: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 06:52:46 PM

How does it show that?  I was a little worried that maybe I made an assumption, and she only went because her own kid was graduating.  And maybe she hadn't been such a great aunt.  But she has.  doesn't seem like a sign of a person that's losing her mind at all. Seems like someone who is trying to keep herself and others healthy, while also still being really supportive.

So I mentioned a few posts ago that I tried to make a post and scrapped it twice because I wasn't happy with how it was worded. But one of the points I was going to make was that taking the cautious or safe position will never be wrong.

I don't know how to explain it but we were out side, and well, I was disappointed.

I think because you work in the public and are exposed every single day that you don't feel the same cautiousness that others feel.  While it sucks that your son didn't get the proper ceremony he deserved, you even admit you can't be wrong being cautious so why do you hold this over the aunt?  Does she have underlying health issues?  Does she have a family that she will go home to?  I think Lethean has a point about just being there.  Everyone is going to go about this differently and many cautiously like myself.  I'd be really upset if my sister was mad that I didn't kiss my nieces or something yesterday.  I hugged them both but I'd hate to think my own cautiousness (not just for myself, but mostly for others) would offend someone I care for especially if I did already put myself outside of my comfort zone.

To add to that - I hope you don't somehow feel that her wearing a mask is a reflection on how she feels about your kid.  More importantly I guess, I hope your son doesn't feel that way.  She probably just wants to make it through this fully intact and with no long term affects to her health.  And that way, hopefully she'll have many more years to be a good aunt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 07:43:33 PM

Re: handshakes - I haven't thought about it at all until reading this thread.  There are plenty of things I miss, but I guess that's not one of them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 07:48:18 PM

OK, so my ghost post basically centered around being cautious vs being ascared.

Cram, you mentioned "baby steps". Are these baby steps for your own comfort level? I mean you did swim with alligators didn't you?

This ain't ending anytime soon. At some point we have to go outside. At some point we have to socialize besides fucking facebook.


My wife made a comment about going somewhere and said she'd be more comfortable in a few months. I was like, what will be the difference between now and a few months? Nothing, that is, except a comfort level.

Quote from: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 07:40:55 PM

To add to that - I hope you don't somehow feel that her wearing a mask is a reflection on how she feels about your kid.  More importantly I guess, I hope your son doesn't feel that way.  She probably just wants to make it through this fully intact and with no long term affects to her health.  And that way, hopefully she'll have many more years to be a good aunt.

So I don't know how else to state my feelings on this without sounding like an ingrateful dick. Personally, I find it ridiculous that she wouldn't get within a few feet from him, mask or no mask.

And again, I'm using her as an example, and I don't have ill will towards her at all. I'm trying to say that how people react to this is interesting.
And no, there's no underlying condition. She's just nuts about this. Even my wife said that she made her boyfriend (husband for all intents) wear a mask while talking to us. 10 feet apart...outside.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 08:01:26 PM

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 07:48:18 PM

OK, so my ghost post basically centered around being cautious vs being ascared.

Cram, you mentioned "baby steps". Are these baby steps for your own comfort level? I mean you did swim with alligators didn't you?

Baby steps are my own choice although occasionally someone else pushes my boundaries (specifically my sister's husband's father in yesterdays example) :lol funny how you remember the alligators in Florida, but I didn't "swim" I stood in the middle of the everglades under the watch of a guide while, yes, alligators were in the vicinity and the water was waist level.... here's the timestamped video (you don't see me jumping in, but you can see it's not some dangerous scenario https://youtu.be/t_9fVxaJc2g?t=449 (https://youtu.be/t_9fVxaJc2g?t=449), also no one has yet to die from an alligator attack in the everglades)

However, there is a point to be made about being cautious vs being scared.

Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 07:48:18 PM

And again, I'm using her as an example, and I don't have ill will towards her at all. I'm trying to say that how people react to this is interesting.
And no, there's no underlying condition. She's just nuts about this. Even my wife said that she made her boyfriend (husband for all intents) wear a mask while talking to us. 10 feet apart...outside.

Personally, I find that a bit much and maybe her personality that I don't know plays a role in your feelings, but based on what you've said so far, it doesn't feel like this was bad intentions or anything, just some extreme caution.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 08:03:30 PM

Yeah, I just don't see her as being either ridiculous or crazy.
We've all heard stories of families that have had multiple illnesses and deaths with this. So it is something to be concerned about. Everyone's going to handle it differently, but I don't think the way that she handled it is it all wrong. Maybe it's not what you would like, but I don't think it says anything about her feelings towards your family.

And, while it's true that this doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon, that doesn't mean that we "have to" socialize in a traditional way before it does.  Everyone is different and there are all kinds of options for how you can socialize and do other things during this pandemic. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 08:12:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 08:01:26 PM

Personally, I find that a bit much and maybe her personality that I don't know plays a role in your feelings, but based on what you've said so far, it doesn't feel like this was bad intentions or anything, just some extreme caution.

Definitely not bad intentions. Definitely not. It's just an example I use where she is really close to my kids, but her fear held her back. And I don't know what word it is to describe what I'm thinking.

Quote from: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 08:03:30 PM

Yeah, I just don't see her as being either ridiculous or crazy.
We've all heard stories of families that have had multiple illnesses and deaths with this. So it is something to be concerned about. Everyone's going to handle it differently, but I don't think the way that she handled it is it all wrong. Maybe it's not what you would like, but I don't think it says anything about her feelings towards your family.

And, while it's true that this doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon, that doesn't mean that we "have to" socialize in a traditional way before it does.  Everyone is different and there are all kinds of options for how you can socialize and do other things during this pandemic. 

So my father is 74, and has a few issues. In his own words, if he gets Covid, he's dead. They live in Florida but own a small cottage in southern NH where they stay in the summer. My parents put off plans to travel up here this summer. But my father, convinced that if he gets it, he's gone, told my mother that he'd rather get it up here near family than get it down there alone.

I've contemplated him catching this, and I just don't think I would spend his last moments talking to him on an iPad.


Furthermore Lethean, I'm not saying it's cool to go out to bars and congregate in large groups. But outdoors, socially distant?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 08:26:05 PM

I don't have any argument with your father's decision.  I hope he's safe in his travels.  But that's him.  Someone in a similar position might decide to stay, and there's nothing wrong with that decision either. 

As for the outdoors and social distancing - I think it's a lot safer than going to bars, sure.  But I've also read that the six feet might not always be enough - it's a prudent recommendation, but depending on a number of factors, droplets can travel farther from that.  And can linger in the air.  So if someone wants to keep their mask on, I say let them.  Who's it hurting?  It's not hurting anyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 08:33:15 PM

Quote from: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 08:26:05 PM

I don't have any argument with your father's decision.  I hope he's safe in his travels.  But that's him.  Someone in a similar position might decide to stay, and there's nothing wrong with that decision either. 

As for the outdoors and social distancing - I think it's a lot safer than going to bars, sure.  But I've also read that the six feet might not always be enough - it's a prudent recommendation, but depending on a number of factors, droplets can travel farther from that.  And can linger in the air.  So if someone wants to keep their mask on, I say let them.  Who's it hurting?  It's not hurting anyone.

At my father's insistence, my parents flew up last week, so they seem to have gotten out of Florida just in time.


I don't care about people wearing masks. I don't hold it against them. I wear one all day at work.


And Lethean, we're just having a conversation between pals, so I'm only asking...

When will you be ready to go out for dinner with your family? Is it open ended? Six months? 12 months? Post vaccine?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 09:00:21 PM

I don't have any desire to go to a restaurant right now.  I can't really say when I will.  Post vaccine - sure. Otherwise I don't see me doing it unless the numbers are way way down. 

There are a lot of strict protocols for people who go into the office where I work, and there's a lot of cleaning going on. But, I (and anyone else who can work from home) am still not allowed to go in.  So, why would I want to go to a restaurant?  I don't feel like my life it's a lot worse off for it either.  In fact, my wallet and my weight seem to think the opposite.  :)

To me, going out to eat is something that's fun. It's something I enjoy doing.  But I'm not suffering without it.  It's a nice to have, but not a must have.  If I have to wait for a vaccine or herd immunity, I can do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 01, 2020, 09:13:31 PM

I’m with ya Lethean. And so is Mrs.jingle. It’s gonna be a long time before we go out for a restaurant meal.  She’s missing sushi, but dead, raw fish isn’t worth the risk of a tube down the throat, or being a symptomatic and spreading it (particularly because jingle.son had asthma as a child). Sure, the risk is small, but it’s not zero. The risk of me getting into a serious car accident is low, but I still wear a seatbelt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 01, 2020, 09:25:28 PM

I agree with Lethean and Jingle.  Perfectly happy eating take out sushi by the pool:)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 02, 2020, 05:54:11 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

We touch knife tips like nobles.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:55:06 AM

Rub noses, like Eskimoses?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 02, 2020, 07:53:40 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

 :lol I'm with you JingleBoy.

As far as restaurants go, I did go out with my family to one about a month ago for one of my sons birthdays.  Things actually went pretty well and I was impressed with how the restaurant changed how they opperate to help prevent the spread of Covid-19.  It ended up being a good experience and a much needed outing for me and my family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 02, 2020, 07:59:20 AM

(https://preview.redd.it/o395ulpvyb851.jpg?width=548&auto=webp&s=2c0f3bc5e86d24f4546eea4226bb0e6ef5dd1c06)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 02, 2020, 08:03:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

Guess I'll go back to just giving everyone the finger then.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 02, 2020, 08:08:05 AM

TAC, I'm still having a tough time figuring out exactly why what she did bothered you, since she was doing exactly what virtually every doctor in the world has been saying to do (if you get together, stay at least 6 feet away, and/or wear a mask).  What's the issue?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 08:41:57 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 02, 2020, 08:03:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

Guess I'll go back to just giving everyone the finger then.

Yeah, but where has your finger been!!   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 02, 2020, 08:53:31 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 02, 2020, 08:08:05 AM

TAC, I'm still having a tough time figuring out exactly why what she did bothered you, since she was doing exactly what virtually every doctor in the world has been saying to do (if you get together, stay at least 6 feet away, and/or wear a mask).  What's the issue?

No issue. My issue.

I guess I was surprised.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 02, 2020, 09:08:36 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 01, 2020, 07:48:18 PM

OK, so my ghost post basically centered around being cautious vs being ascared.

Cram, you mentioned "baby steps". Are these baby steps for your own comfort level? I mean you did swim with alligators didn't you?

This ain't ending anytime soon. At some point we have to go outside. At some point we have to socialize besides fucking facebook.


My wife made a comment about going somewhere and said she'd be more comfortable in a few months. I was like, what will be the difference between now and a few months? Nothing, that is, except a comfort level.

Quote from: Lethean on July 01, 2020, 07:40:55 PM

To add to that - I hope you don't somehow feel that her wearing a mask is a reflection on how she feels about your kid.  More importantly I guess, I hope your son doesn't feel that way.  She probably just wants to make it through this fully intact and with no long term affects to her health.  And that way, hopefully she'll have many more years to be a good aunt.

So I don't know how else to state my feelings on this without sounding like an ingrateful dick. Personally, I find it ridiculous that she wouldn't get within a few feet from him, mask or no mask.

And again, I'm using her as an example, and I don't have ill will towards her at all. I'm trying to say that how people react to this is interesting.
And no, there's no underlying condition. She's just nuts about this. Even my wife said that she made her boyfriend (husband for all intents) wear a mask while talking to us. 10 feet apart...outside.

I'm far more concerned with why your wife's boyfriend was there.   

I'M KIDDING.

I think I DO understand you though, and I certainly understand your feelings.  I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that subject in general.  I kind of go both ways at this point.   I see the need/benefit of caution, but I also see a lot of...  knee-jerking, and that doesn't really help the problem, because "knee-jerks" tend to rebound. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 02, 2020, 09:13:33 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 08:41:57 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 02, 2020, 08:03:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

Guess I'll go back to just giving everyone the finger then.

Yeah, but where has your finger been!!   :lol

In a warm, moist, safe place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 02, 2020, 09:16:13 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 01, 2020, 09:13:31 PM

I’m with ya Lethean. And so is Mrs.jingle. It’s gonna be a long time before we go out for a restaurant meal.  She’s missing sushi, but dead, raw fish isn’t worth the risk of a tube down the throat, or being a symptomatic and spreading it (particularly because jingle.son had asthma as a child). Sure, the risk is small, but it’s not zero. The risk of me getting into a serious car accident is low, but I still wear a seatbelt.

I think we have to account for "people", though.   I'm cool being by myself.  I prefer it, actually.  But I have moments where I just NEED to be around people.   I rarely go out, but I need time once in a while where I just talk to someone who isn't my wife, isn't my kid, isn't my boss.   When I travel for work, that itch gets scratched easily; stop in at the bar in the terminal and strike up a convo.  Easy as pie.  I've not done that now in going on five months.   And it's fine to sit here and type - as I am - and say "well, is that vodka soda and conversation with some dude you're never going to see again worth dying for?"; that's an easy question.   But that's not how the human brain works for everyone.  How many stories do we all know where it's "is that one [bump of coke/fuck/drink/football game/job/hobby] worth losing everything for?  Why yes it is!"

My ego says I'm disciplined enough (my lack of self-esteem says I'm a p***y) that I haven't made that choice yet, but I can absolutely see why the mental relief of a night out or a gathering could have incredible attraction for someone.  We've got to account for this. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on July 02, 2020, 10:35:36 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 02, 2020, 07:59:20 AM

(https://preview.redd.it/o395ulpvyb851.jpg?width=548&auto=webp&s=2c0f3bc5e86d24f4546eea4226bb0e6ef5dd1c06)

This can’t go unappreciated. The fact it’s almost Independence Day makes it even better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: orcus116 on July 02, 2020, 10:42:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

If only. The amount of hand and free air sneezers I see is really alarming and I don't understand why the elbow isn't a 100% common sense thing for people. My dad constantly coughs and sneezes directly into his fist even after being talked to about it for years. Can't change folks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 02, 2020, 10:52:19 AM

Quote from: orcus116 on July 02, 2020, 10:42:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

If only. The amount of hand and free air sneezers I see is really alarming and I don't understand why the elbow isn't a 100% common sense thing for people. My dad constantly coughs and sneezes directly into his fist even after being talked to about it for years. Can't change folks.

As with forming any new habbit, it takes time to change.  Societal changes generally take a very long time sometimes more than one generation. (I know the idea of sneazing/coughing in the elbow has been around for a while)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on July 02, 2020, 12:56:11 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 01, 2020, 10:18:56 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:46:00 PM

First bumps are better anyway.

A friend's brother, who I see like 3 times a year, is one of those guys who feels the need to squeeze your hand as hard as he can every time he shakes it. Does that to everyone.  Dude probably has small genitals.  :lol :lol

Kitchens have been doing fist bumps for years, and now we've progressed to the elbow bump.

See, this I don't understand - everyone sneezes into the inside of their elbow, right?  I'd prefer that no one's elbow gets anywhere close to me.

The easy solution there is for everyone to now sneeze into their own crotch instead of their elbow. That way if anyone tries to pecker slap ya, the joke’s on them since they’ll get your sneeze all over their hand.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 02, 2020, 12:57:49 PM

If I could do that Kev Id be in another profession.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 01:04:51 PM

Kev, I laughed WAAAY too hardly that!   :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on July 02, 2020, 01:43:17 PM

We surpassed the 10,000 new case per day mark in Florida.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 02, 2020, 01:50:49 PM

Quote from: emtee on July 02, 2020, 01:43:17 PM

We surpassed the 10,000 new case per day mark in Florida.

SMH at our State.  I’m a transplant here (orig NY then VT) and this state Is really embarrassing at times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 02, 2020, 01:52:23 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 02, 2020, 01:50:49 PM

Quote from: emtee on July 02, 2020, 01:43:17 PM

We surpassed the 10,000 new case per day mark in Florida.

SMH at our State.  I’m a transplant here (orig NY then VT) and this state Is really embarrassing at times.

I wonder the age breakdown on who was affected in FLA?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 02, 2020, 01:54:32 PM

As someone who partially grew up in Florida, I will say that if the state fell into the ocean, I'd be okay with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on July 02, 2020, 02:06:16 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 02, 2020, 01:04:51 PM

Kev, I laughed WAAAY too hardly that!   :rollin

Ha!  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 02, 2020, 02:10:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on July 02, 2020, 01:54:32 PM

As someone who partially grew up in Florida, I will say that if the state fell into the ocean, I'd be okay with that.

Well that explains a lot.  You’re a native Florida Man.
As a transplant from NY and VT, the native FL Man is easy to identify.   
Usually by the size of the lift kit on his pickup and the “ballsack” hanging off the tow hitch.  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 02, 2020, 05:04:18 PM

So they told me 48 hrs for the results. I call back today and they tell me it'll be 7-10 business days. With the long weekend, I'm guessing I'll know by the following Monday.



Shit, by that time, if I'm sick and symptomatic, I'll be feeling it, right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 02, 2020, 05:10:58 PM

I has a new hire who was supposed to come in last Thursday for orientation call me that day and told me he was in contact with someone with covid.

Friday he went for the test.  Yesterday the results came back negative.  I still can't bring him in for orientation until next Friday. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 02, 2020, 05:16:01 PM

Ok hopefully I'll know before the end of next week. Still does nothing towards saving my 4 day weekend. I'm not going anywhere as long as I may be positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 02, 2020, 06:47:51 PM

Great article on masks and the economy.

 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wearing-a-mask-to-halt-the-spread-of-coronavirus-has-a-big-impact-on-us-economic-growthand-goldman-has-done-the-math-2020-06-30?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wearing-a-mask-to-halt-the-spread-of-coronavirus-has-a-big-impact-on-us-economic-growthand-goldman-has-done-the-math-2020-06-30?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 05:46:46 AM

I suspect that getting people to stay home and out of social situations is the best way to stop the spread rather than masks. Though of course masks help, not trying to argue that. During the stay at home orders here, well less than half of people wore masks when they were out shopping for groceries and at the stores we were allowed to go to. But nearly everyone just stayed home instead of socializing. The stores that were open were just as busy as they always were, if not more so at times. Now that the stay at home orders are done, there are plenty of people acting like they can throw parties and get together with larger groups of people. These are situations where virtually  no one wears masks. Or maintains distancing. It wasn't until we saw this type of gathering pick up again that we saw cases pick up. Really the only other change is outdoor seating at restaurants, which I don't think anyone has ever claimed in a huge source of spread. Now, depending on the store, I see half to 3/4s of people wearing masks. So more masks in public are being worn but cases are still going up. As much as I don't want it to be the case, I think we need to stop the socializing again and just get back to essential business. Even if "essential" is a little broader than it was before to allow almost every business to be open is some capacity. It doesn't seem to me that going to a store is a big spreader, even without masks, given what we saw during the stay at home orders. It's when people let their guard down with family or friends that I suspect we're seeing most of the spread. I know it's virtually impossible to figure out where everyone is catching it, but it would be very enlightening to get more data on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 03, 2020, 05:57:04 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 05:46:46 AM

I suspect that getting people to stay home and out of social situations is the best way to stop the spread rather than masks. Though of course masks help, not trying to argue that.

I've seen described this situation as a ship trying to navigate safely between two very steep and dangerous cliffs. One is the cliff of bad health, and the other one is the cliff of social and economical collapse. If you steer too much away from the bad health (lock everything and everyone down), you're gonna go crash on the economical cliff. And if you steer too away from this second cliff, and let everyone go around, you're gonna crash back into the bad health one with tons of infected people.

Since there's a fine balance to thread, and locking people up forever does not leave a civilization to come back to, we have to go around somehow, and that's how masks and staying apart from people help.

I also agree with you that, it's psychologically inevitable, we let our guard down when we're with families and friends. I'm still in touch with people from high school, we had a reunion at a bar, and I felt uneasy at the idea of being the only one wearing a mask. It happened enough time ago that by now I'm sure I wasn't infected, but still I was a bit at unease.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 06:48:11 AM

I agree that there's a fine balance. It seemed people were pretty willing to stay home for a couple months there. I'm not sure if they'll be as willing the second time around if it comes. For the reason so stated above, I don't think masks alone are going to be enough, unless we can get people to wear them anytime they're around people who aren't in their immediate family. I just don't see that happening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 09:01:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 06:48:11 AM

...I don't think masks alone are going to be enough, unless we can get people to wear them anytime they're around people who aren't in their immediate family. I just don't see that happening.

And that is what is baffling to me.  There just isn't a good reason to not use them, other than the small minority of cases where people have a legitimate health reason for not doing so (severe anxiety or legitimate phobia of having something on their faces, or extreme respiratory problems that dictate that masks or other impediments to breathing are a no-no, for example).  But that VERY small minority of the population can mitigate the spread in other ways (socially distancing at ALL times; those with respiratory issues unfortunately just not going out at all).  For the vast majority, there is no reason to not heed the advise of the medical community.  I find it pretty inexcusable to not comply.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:18:08 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 09:01:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 06:48:11 AM

...I don't think masks alone are going to be enough, unless we can get people to wear them anytime they're around people who aren't in their immediate family. I just don't see that happening.

And that is what is baffling to me.  There just isn't a good reason to not use them, other than the small minority of cases where people have a legitimate health reason for not doing so (severe anxiety or legitimate phobia of having something on their faces, or extreme respiratory problems that dictate that masks or other impediments to breathing are a no-no, for example).  But that VERY small minority of the population can mitigate the spread in other ways (socially distancing at ALL times; those with respiratory issues unfortunately just not going out at all).  For the vast majority, there is no reason to not heed the advise of the medical community.  I find it pretty inexcusable to not comply.

My body my choice. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 09:20:07 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:18:08 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 09:01:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 06:48:11 AM

...I don't think masks alone are going to be enough, unless we can get people to wear them anytime they're around people who aren't in their immediate family. I just don't see that happening.

And that is what is baffling to me.  There just isn't a good reason to not use them, other than the small minority of cases where people have a legitimate health reason for not doing so (severe anxiety or legitimate phobia of having something on their faces, or extreme respiratory problems that dictate that masks or other impediments to breathing are a no-no, for example).  But that VERY small minority of the population can mitigate the spread in other ways (socially distancing at ALL times; those with respiratory issues unfortunately just not going out at all).  For the vast majority, there is no reason to not heed the advise of the medical community.  I find it pretty inexcusable to not comply.

My body my choice. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

Except we're talking about an infectious disease that doesn't care about you or any of the rest of us, my friend. "Your choice" is a selfish one that has potential to affect others, particularly with that callous attitude

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Train of Naught on July 03, 2020, 09:35:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:18:08 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 09:01:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 06:48:11 AM

...I don't think masks alone are going to be enough, unless we can get people to wear them anytime they're around people who aren't in their immediate family. I just don't see that happening.

And that is what is baffling to me.  There just isn't a good reason to not use them, other than the small minority of cases where people have a legitimate health reason for not doing so (severe anxiety or legitimate phobia of having something on their faces, or extreme respiratory problems that dictate that masks or other impediments to breathing are a no-no, for example).  But that VERY small minority of the population can mitigate the spread in other ways (socially distancing at ALL times; those with respiratory issues unfortunately just not going out at all).  For the vast majority, there is no reason to not heed the advise of the medical community.  I find it pretty inexcusable to not comply.

My body my choice. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

This comment makes me sick to my stomach. Can you please reconsider the impact your ‘choice’ has on the people around you?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:40:13 AM

Once again. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 03, 2020, 09:44:31 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:40:13 AM

Once again. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

You do realize that judging a virus only by its mortality rate, without taking in consideration anything else, is useless, right? well, rethorical question, you obviously don't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 03, 2020, 09:44:55 AM

Have you contemplated what a 99% survival actually means? Especially for a virus no one has any natural immunity to?

You're recklessly endangering people for seemingly no other reason than the fact that you can and it makes you feel 'badass' to do so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 09:47:53 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:40:13 AM

Once again. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

Yeah I'll just stay home and not get groceries, or gas, or go to work and deal with the public, or you could take 2 seconds to put on a mask when you go into a public space and continue going about your life and enjoying all the freedoms that we all still have (assuming you live in the USA), bruh

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 09:53:01 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 09:47:53 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:40:13 AM

Once again. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

Yeah I'll just stay home and not get groceries, or gas, or go to work and deal with the public, or you could take 2 seconds to put on a mask when you go into a public space and continue going about your life and enjoying all the freedoms that we all still have (assuming you live in the USA), bruh

This coming from a guy who still brushes his teeth? Psht.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 09:53:51 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 03, 2020, 09:53:01 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 09:47:53 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:40:13 AM

Once again. You're free to stay home if you're afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate.

Yeah I'll just stay home and not get groceries, or gas, or go to work and deal with the public, or you could take 2 seconds to put on a mask when you go into a public space and continue going about your life and enjoying all the freedoms that we all still have (assuming you live in the USA), bruh

This coming from a guy who still brushes his teeth? Psht.

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Train of Naught on July 03, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

Wait, I think he is trying to imply that a 99% survival rate is a POSITIVE thing? This is either some kind of troll or someone you simply cannot argue with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:57:47 AM

Quote from: Train of Naught on July 03, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

Wait, I think he is trying to imply that a 99% survival rate is a POSITIVE thing? This is either some kind of troll or someone you simply cannot argue with.

How is it not positive?

You are right though. I'm just posting my opinions. I have no desire to argue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:57:47 AM

Quote from: Train of Naught on July 03, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

Wait, I think he is trying to imply that a 99% survival rate is a POSITIVE thing? This is either some kind of troll or someone you simply cannot argue with.

How is it not positive?

You are right though. I'm just posting my opinions. I have no desire to argue.

I have no idea if you mean world-wide or just America? But apparently it's a 1-2% mortality rate, which...worldwide, would be a bit more than 150,000,000 dead.

Let's not get too hung up on %

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 03, 2020, 10:00:24 AM

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:04:18 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 09:01:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 06:48:11 AM

...I don't think masks alone are going to be enough, unless we can get people to wear them anytime they're around people who aren't in their immediate family. I just don't see that happening.

And that is what is baffling to me.  There just isn't a good reason to not use them, other than the small minority of cases where people have a legitimate health reason for not doing so (severe anxiety or legitimate phobia of having something on their faces, or extreme respiratory problems that dictate that masks or other impediments to breathing are a no-no, for example).  But that VERY small minority of the population can mitigate the spread in other ways (socially distancing at ALL times; those with respiratory issues unfortunately just not going out at all).  For the vast majority, there is no reason to not heed the advise of the medical community.  I find it pretty inexcusable to not comply.

I'm speaking more about social situations hanging with a friends or family in private places, not in public. I see no chance at all that people (even those that wear them 100% of the time in public) start wearing masks when they hang with their parents, or their closest half dozen friends, or their siblings. I can almost guarantee you that there is more spread from casual social gatherings than at the grocery store or Target, even without masks in those places (see my original post about cases going down even with low mask usage during the stay at home orders). This is why I see mask mandates not likely being terribly effective. Not because masks can't be effective, but because they won't be used in the situations when you're at highest risk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 03, 2020, 10:09:53 AM

I have a heart condition.   I hate wearing a mask in public but I do because I know I am at risk.  I think of my dad who is at risk going through lung cancer right now.  I think people forget just because you are in good health and if you caught the virus it would be like the flu but for others around us, it could be deadly.

Am I tired of this, hell yeah I am but I still wear them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:11:00 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:04:18 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 09:01:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 06:48:11 AM

...I don't think masks alone are going to be enough, unless we can get people to wear them anytime they're around people who aren't in their immediate family. I just don't see that happening.

And that is what is baffling to me.  There just isn't a good reason to not use them, other than the small minority of cases where people have a legitimate health reason for not doing so (severe anxiety or legitimate phobia of having something on their faces, or extreme respiratory problems that dictate that masks or other impediments to breathing are a no-no, for example).  But that VERY small minority of the population can mitigate the spread in other ways (socially distancing at ALL times; those with respiratory issues unfortunately just not going out at all).  For the vast majority, there is no reason to not heed the advise of the medical community.  I find it pretty inexcusable to not comply.

I'm speaking more about social situations hanging with a friends or family in private places, not in public. I see no chance at all that people (even those that wear them 100% of the time in public) start wearing masks when they hang with their parents, or their closest half dozen friends, or their siblings. I can almost guarantee you that there is more spread from casual social gatherings than at the grocery store or Target, even without masks in those places (see my original post about cases going down even with low mask usage during the stay at home orders). This is why I see mask mandates not likely being terribly effective. Not because masks can't be effective, but because they won't be used in the situations when you're at highest risk.

I follow you.  And I still think what I said applies.  I don't really understand why people cannot either stay at least 6 feet apart or wear a mask in those situations. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:12:12 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 03, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:57:47 AM

Quote from: Train of Naught on July 03, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

Wait, I think he is trying to imply that a 99% survival rate is a POSITIVE thing? This is either some kind of troll or someone you simply cannot argue with.

How is it not positive?

You are right though. I'm just posting my opinions. I have no desire to argue.

I have no idea if you mean world-wide or just America? But apparently it's a 1-2% mortality rate, which...worldwide, would be a bit more than 150,000,000 dead.

Let's not get too hung up on %

I'm pro abortion. Never really had that "all life is precious" mindset.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:14:15 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:11:00 AM

I follow you.  And I still think what I said applies.  I don't really understand why people cannot either stay at least 6 feet apart or wear a mask in those situations. 

Of course they can, I just think most people relax and don't think about that kind of stuff when they're with the people they care most about. It's just not a natural thing to consider. Plus people want something resembling normal life in all of this, and they can find it in small groups like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 10:14:47 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:12:12 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 03, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:57:47 AM

Quote from: Train of Naught on July 03, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

Wait, I think he is trying to imply that a 99% survival rate is a POSITIVE thing? This is either some kind of troll or someone you simply cannot argue with.

How is it not positive?

You are right though. I'm just posting my opinions. I have no desire to argue.

I have no idea if you mean world-wide or just America? But apparently it's a 1-2% mortality rate, which...worldwide, would be a bit more than 150,000,000 dead.

Let's not get too hung up on %

I'm pro abortion. Never really had that "all life is precious" mindset.

I have no idea how that at all relates to what we're discussing? Unless think your disregard for life is more important than other people's regard for their lives?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 10:15:23 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:12:12 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 03, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 09:57:47 AM

Quote from: Train of Naught on July 03, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

Wait, I think he is trying to imply that a 99% survival rate is a POSITIVE thing? This is either some kind of troll or someone you simply cannot argue with.

How is it not positive?

You are right though. I'm just posting my opinions. I have no desire to argue.

I have no idea if you mean world-wide or just America? But apparently it's a 1-2% mortality rate, which...worldwide, would be a bit more than 150,000,000 dead.

Let's not get too hung up on %

I'm pro abortion. Never really had that "all life is precious" mindset.

I'm pro abortion as well but that is irrelevant; I'm not selfish enough to make this all about me and act oblivious to the fact that wearing a mask does, surprisingly, help to some degree when dealing with respiratory disease

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 03, 2020, 10:19:31 AM

I wear a mask in public because I'm extremely afraid I could damage other people.

I'm a bit puzzled by seeing fear of wearing a mask topping fear of hurting your neighbour.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 10:21:33 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on July 03, 2020, 10:19:31 AM

I wear a mask in public because I'm extremely afraid I could damage other people.

I'm a bit puzzled by seeing fear of wearing a mask topping fear of hurting your neighbour.

It doesn't sound like fear of wearing a mask. It just sounds like "I don't wanna and you can't make me" kind of attitude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:22:56 AM

At a base level, I agree with ZKX's basic point. We all evaluate the risks of life around us and make our own choices of what precautions to take on a daily basis. This is nothing new and for the most part I agree it should be on each individual to choose their own risk tolerance. We all also endanger those around us with "selfish" decisions on a very regular basis, so this is nothing new either. I don't think it makes someone a terrible person if they do the same risk analysis as me and come to a different conclusion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:24:21 AM

I'm puzzled that it is still surprising to people that masks help, regardless to the level of effectiveness.  Its not rocket science to know that putting some cloth on your mug will help decrease the amount of shiz you spray out yo mouth.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:30:03 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:24:21 AM

I'm puzzled that it is still surprising that masks help.

Though there are people who disagree with the effectiveness of masks, I think for the most part it boils down to people feeling either:
-this is a massive overreaction to a disease with a very high survival rate and I don't want to participate in that overreaction.
- don't tell me what to do, you can't make me wear a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:31:16 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:30:03 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:24:21 AM

I'm puzzled that it is still surprising that masks help.

Though there are people who disagree with the effectiveness of masks, I think for the most part it boils down to people feeling either:
-this is a massive overreaction to a disease with a very high survival rate and I don't want to participate in that overreaction.
- don't tell me what to do, you can't make me wear a mask.

- It's uncomfortable
-It doesn't work

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 03, 2020, 10:31:52 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 03, 2020, 10:21:33 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on July 03, 2020, 10:19:31 AM

I wear a mask in public because I'm extremely afraid I could damage other people.

I'm a bit puzzled by seeing fear of wearing a mask topping fear of hurting your neighbour.

It doesn't sound like fear of wearing a mask. It just sounds like "I don't wanna and you can't make me" kind of attitude.

I was being kind  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 10:32:07 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:31:16 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:30:03 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:24:21 AM

I'm puzzled that it is still surprising that masks help.

Though there are people who disagree with the effectiveness of masks, I think for the most part it boils down to people feeling either:
-this is a massive overreaction to a disease with a very high survival rate and I don't want to participate in that overreaction.
- don't tell me what to do, you can't make me wear a mask.

- It's uncomfortable

So get a more comfortable mask. It's not hard!

EDIT: and they do work. They do help. Just because it's not 100% effective does not mean they're not effective. Psychologically you can help others keep their minds at ease by wearing one and being 'uncomfortable' for a few minutes while you shop. Surely that peace of mind and potential safety is worth a FEW minutes of mild discomfort.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

I wear N95s at work fairly often because of dust particles. They work. If you have the disease but are asymptomatic, wearing a mask can help prevent spreading it to others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:35:25 AM

I am forced by the county I live in to wear one all day at work.

The "few minutes while you shop" argument isn't gonna go far with me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 10:36:53 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:35:25 AM

I am forced by the county I live in to wear one all day at work.

The "few minutes while you shop" argument isn't gonna go far with me.

So, if we look at this objectively, you value your comfort over the health and safety of others, yes? Not making a judgement call because of that, but I want to be sure I understand your position here. Do you think doctors don't know what they're talking about when they talk about the effectiveness of masks? If so, why do you think you know more better than them?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:39:06 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:31:16 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 10:30:03 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:24:21 AM

I'm puzzled that it is still surprising that masks help.

Though there are people who disagree with the effectiveness of masks, I think for the most part it boils down to people feeling either:
-this is a massive overreaction to a disease with a very high survival rate and I don't want to participate in that overreaction.
- don't tell me what to do, you can't make me wear a mask.

- It's uncomfortable.
-It doesn't work.

- It's uncomfortable....yup.  and? 
-It doesn't work....nope.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 10:40:02 AM

According to some numbers I just ran, serving in the Vietnam war (as in actually going to the country to fight) had a 98% or so survival rate for the US army.

Pretty sure I still wouldn't have wanted to go, and definitely wouldn't have mocked people who were too scared to go fight in Vietnam.

I'm also doing this to show what a 98-99% survival rate looks like.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

I value being able to breathe.

I've seen enough to know that most people don't care about others. So I know it's a fools errand to do it myself.

Quote from: Adami on July 03, 2020, 10:40:02 AM

According to some numbers I just ran, serving in the Vietnam war (as in actually going to the country to fight) had a 98% or so survival rate for the US army.

Pretty sure I still wouldn't have wanted to go, and definitely wouldn't have mocked people who were too scared to go fight in Vietnam.

I'm also doing this to show what a 98-99% survival rate looks like.

Did you have an issue with the forced draft? How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 10:46:11 AM

Yes I have a problem with the forced draft. Other than the word forced, it has nothing in common with the masks.

Forcing people into a war is NOT in the slightest bit the same as forcing people to wear mask.

Though, and I apologize to Northern Lion for this, I do not value personal freedom and liberty to the same degree that most Americans and westerners do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 03, 2020, 10:47:10 AM

Does anyone not have an issue with the forced draft?

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

I value being able to breathe.

So the mask is not effective at stopping virus particles, but somehow is impeding your ability to breathe, which relies on oxygen molecules that are orders of magnitude smaller than virus particles?

Re: Being forced. Are you allowed to walk into a store naked?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 10:47:29 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

I value being able to breathe.

I've seen enough to know that most people don't care about others. So I know it's a fools errand to do it myself.

Is it a fools errand to wear your seat belt even though a lot of people don't? You're acting off of a gross assumption about billions of people. Like Shadow said... to you, the masks don't stop the sickness, yet you can't breathe in them? Huh? :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 03, 2020, 10:48:49 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:35:25 AM

I am forced by the county I live in to wear one all day at work.

The "few minutes while you shop" argument isn't gonna go far with me.

Wait. So you do wear it at work because forced.

I'm relieved that "my body my choice" speech was probably more a matter of frustration than disregard for other people's safety  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:48:52 AM

I asked my wife if she liked getting mammograms every year. She said, "NO!  They are very painful, and inconvenient, and even embarrassing at times."
But I said, "what is the big deal?  Why the overreaction?  Breast Cancer has a 99% survival rating!"
Then I woke up an hour later on the ground, next to a frying pan, with a large lump on my head. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:50:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:55:58 AM

Lousy analogies and boot licking... I'll see you guys in the other threads.  :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 10:56:45 AM

Lousy analogies and BOOT LICKING!   :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 11:00:56 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 10:56:45 AM

Lousy analogies and BOOT LICKING!   :rollin

Boot Licking?   :lol :lol :lol
Someone has some other issues going on to think that our position on wearing masks is somehow boot licking.  Holy Shit Man.
Hell, I even googled it juuuust to make sure it meant what I thought it meant.  Wow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 03, 2020, 11:01:40 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:55:58 AM

Lousy analogies and boot licking... I'll see you guys in the other threads.  :-\

You're 100% free to stay home if afraid of some 100% survival rate discussion  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 11:02:03 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:55:58 AM

Lousy analogies and boot licking... I'll see you guys in the other threads.  :-\

I apologize if my analogies seemed lousy. I was just trying to demonstrate why "99% survival rate" might be misleading.

Also I honestly don't think I've heard the phrase boot licking before. According to google, it means giving into power for the sake of it or something? I dunno.

I mean, I know Walrus is very against certain types of jokes, but other than that I don't think anyone here has demonstrated any boot licking. We just feel it's a good idea. Likely after rational thinking, and not just blind servitude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 11:05:59 AM

Recognizing a duty to others to not spread a potentially deadly virus is not in the same zip code as boot licking.  I mean, I get that it is convenient to shoot down someone else's argument by using a catchy soundbite rather than grappling with the actual issues, but this one isn't even close.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 11:06:17 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:50:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 03, 2020, 11:06:55 AM

Is the difference between sizes of virus particles and oxygen molecules a 'lousy analogy'?

Fucking scientists. Trying to get in our heads with their lousy-ass "'"facts"'".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2020, 11:10:27 AM

Quote from: Adobe on July 03, 2020, 11:02:03 AM

I mean, I know Walrus is very against certain types of jokes, but other than that I don't think anyone here has demonstrated any boot licking

You bastard  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 11:13:15 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 11:06:17 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:50:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

True.  But unless you get a test, do you KNOW you don't have the virus?  So not wearing a mask, knowing that you MIGHT be infecting other people, is called what then?  Intentional Negligence?  Is that ok?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 03, 2020, 11:15:57 AM

You know, I was trying to come up with an analogy to argue Lordxizor and the idea of unprotected sex came up.

We don't mandate protected sex, but generally urge it. We leave it up to the individuals. Some obvious exceptions are a person who knows they have a thing like HIV cannot engage in unprotected sex without the informed, and I do mean informed, consent of the other person. But with COVID, unless you have been tested positive, it's more like someone who may have an STD or may not.........which is most of us who weren't recently tested. We don't mandate condom use.

I dunno. Just typing out my thought process.

Edit: Hm, but sex isn't like breathing. We're not banging everyone around us in a store/park/etc.......I mean, maybe some of you are, but I'm definitely not good looking enough to pull that off. So Maybe then the extreme amount of exposure makes it different.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 11:29:28 AM

I get the analogy. But unlike breathing, we do not expect that everyone we come within 6 feet of (ariich excepted, but later) will involuntarily spontaneously have sex with us without our consent, and thereby expose us to whatever they may happen to be carrying.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 12:10:25 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 11:13:15 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 11:06:17 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:50:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

True.  But unless you get a test, do you KNOW you don't have the virus?  So not wearing a mask, knowing that you MIGHT be infecting other people, is called what then?  Intentional Negligence?  Is that ok?

I would say intentional negligence would be going out when you know you're sick and not taking precautions, or with Covid going out at all I guess. And no, that would not be ok.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 12:16:05 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 12:10:25 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 11:13:15 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 11:06:17 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:50:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

True.  But unless you get a test, do you KNOW you don't have the virus?  So not wearing a mask, knowing that you MIGHT be infecting other people, is called what then?  Intentional Negligence?  Is that ok?

I would say intentional negligence would be going out when you know you're sick and not taking precautions, or with Covid going out at all I guess. And no, that would not be ok.

First I would say knowing you have it, and interacting with others while not taking precautions, is more like assault.

So then what is going out without a mask on, not knowing if you have Covid-19 or not?  You KNOW there is a risk that you might be asymptomatic and might give it to others?  That seems like intentional negligence to me.

Maybe I'm wrong.  Sure wouldn't be the first time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 03, 2020, 12:19:33 PM

Two things. For anyone who says it’s hard to breathe with a mask on, I trust they are more than willing to wear a face shield?  If not, than this excuse is just that ... and excuse to try and justify why you don’t round to wear one.

Second, since when is my body my choice even a thing?  Tell ya what.  Go to a playground (when they open) naked and spank your monkey. See how much “choice” you have then. Also, if this truly is a thing, take your employer to the local human rights tribunal, or hire an employment lawyer. I eagerly await the outcome.

I’d really like to believe your just being an immense troll, but me thinks your just immensely selfish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 12:34:26 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 12:16:05 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 12:10:25 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 11:13:15 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 11:06:17 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:50:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

True.  But unless you get a test, do you KNOW you don't have the virus?  So not wearing a mask, knowing that you MIGHT be infecting other people, is called what then?  Intentional Negligence?  Is that ok?

I would say intentional negligence would be going out when you know you're sick and not taking precautions, or with Covid going out at all I guess. And no, that would not be ok.

First I would say knowing you have it, and interacting with others while not taking precautions, is more like assault.

So then what is going out without a mask on, not knowing if you have Covid-19 or not?  You KNOW there is a risk that you might be asymptomatic and might give it to others?  That seems like intentional negligence to me.

Maybe I'm wrong.  Sure wouldn't be the first time.

This is literally always the case. I could have the flu and not know it. I could have a cold and not know it. I could have Ebola and not know it. Any one of those might kill someone, especially someone immune comprimised. So is it always negligent to go out without a mask on? I would argue if you think it is now, then it always is. Why is a 1% chance of dying of Covid negligence, but a 0.1% chance of dying of the flu not? It's the arbitrariness of it all that bugs me, as I've stated many times in this thread. Normally people wouldn't bat an eye if a person with the flu went to the pharmacy to pick up some meds, but now, going out with Covid is assault?

Just for the record (yet again), I like to play devil's advocate in this thread. I wear masks a lot, but not always. I don't think they're a huge deal usually.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on July 03, 2020, 01:21:55 PM

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 01:32:09 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 12:34:26 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 12:16:05 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 12:10:25 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 11:13:15 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 03, 2020, 11:06:17 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 03, 2020, 10:50:41 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 03, 2020, 10:43:43 AM

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

True.  But unless you get a test, do you KNOW you don't have the virus?  So not wearing a mask, knowing that you MIGHT be infecting other people, is called what then?  Intentional Negligence?  Is that ok?

I would say intentional negligence would be going out when you know you're sick and not taking precautions, or with Covid going out at all I guess. And no, that would not be ok.

First I would say knowing you have it, and interacting with others while not taking precautions, is more like assault.

So then what is going out without a mask on, not knowing if you have Covid-19 or not?  You KNOW there is a risk that you might be asymptomatic and might give it to others?  That seems like intentional negligence to me.

Maybe I'm wrong.  Sure wouldn't be the first time.

This is literally always the case. I could have the flu and not know it. I could have a cold and not know it. I could have Ebola and not know it. Any one of those might kill someone, especially someone immune comprimised. So is it always negligent to go out without a mask on? I would argue if you think it is now, then it always is. Why is a 1% chance of dying of Covid negligence, but a 0.1% chance of dying of the flu not? It's the arbitrariness of it all that bugs me, as I've stated many times in this thread. Normally people wouldn't bat an eye if a person with the flu went to the pharmacy to pick up some meds, but now, going out with Covid is assault?

Just for the record (yet again), I like to play devil's advocate in this thread. I wear masks a lot, but not always. I don't think they're a huge deal usually.

I get that you are playing Devils Advocate, and I appreciate you saying so for the record.

But we all have had this discussion before.  Isn't that just a logical fallacy of Reductio ad absurdum?  Couldn't we use that logic to say that we cant do anything ever, as anything we do technically might pose some risk to others?  I guess Society determines where these arbitrary lines are.  I get your point here, I really do.  But I guess that society makes a calculation at which point certain behaviors are expected, by weighing personal sacrifice (in this case VERY small) of the one, with the health of the many.  It looks like that decision has been made by the many, as the scale tipped just enough, and that is how society works.
I personally agree with it.  Many might not.  But I guess its like freedom of speech....you have the right, but there can be consequences.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 03, 2020, 01:52:41 PM

If you look practically, focusing on death rates doesn't really paint the whole picture. As someone who works at a hospital I can tell you that when enough people get it, the floodgates will open, which then becomes a problem for anyone else needing certain types of medical attention, because full is full. If you let that go it's course, the death rates will increase, because treatable emergencies will not be treated anymore. They have actually made guidelines here to choose patients over others, as a result of the first wave. And the burden it put on healthcare is the entire reason why so many places went into lockdowns in the first place. All the other outbreaks we are familiar with over here just don't do that.

Furthermore, many people are ill for a long time and a whole lot, even mild cases, still have issues months after the fact. Myself included, though thankfully mild. Those hospitalised even have a chance on permanent lung damage, never being able to breathe normally again. Especially the ICU cases, given their scarring.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 02:09:02 PM

55k new cases.  We will def hit 100k a day in US.  Gov of Texas issued order requiring most to wear mask in public.  I wish that our Gov in FL would pull his tongue out of Trumps sphincter and do the same.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 03, 2020, 02:55:02 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 02:09:02 PM

55k new cases.  We will def hit 100k a day in US. 

And probably in the next two or three days, right in the middle of a massive holiday weekend where everyone is going to be completely ignoring social distancing to celebrate freedom. I'd gather that'd put us at 250k/day by the end of next week?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 03, 2020, 06:33:29 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 03, 2020, 07:11:04 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 03, 2020, 06:33:29 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

Yup, the death count is fairly static here in Ca. I'd guess they're catching a lot more of the asymptomatic cases, as well as saving a few more of the dire ones now that they got a bit more knowledge behind them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 03, 2020, 08:28:57 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/coronavirus-contact-tracing-subpoena/index.html

Not sure how I feel about this. First off, I wasn't aware a state department of health could issue a subpoena. So, my first thought was no one is obligated to talk to a contact tracer if they don't want to. No law was violated, piss off, you don't need to know who's house I went to last weekend.

Quote

The subpoenas were punishable by up to $2,000 in fines per day, she said. All eight recipients have already responded. "It worked," she said.

"It's amazing how smart some people got," he told CNN. "Everybody is complying and helping us, which is all that we're trying to have happen, is work with us. We're not looking to be punitive here."

It is amazing people didn't want to pay $2k a day? And stop saying you didn't want to be punitive. ""If you get in the way of a health department investigation, I will take -- and we will take -- every step necessary to ensure that we respond appropriately and we're talking a serious response," Day said. Sounds like you are more than happy to be punitive. (different people in the quotes, apologies for lumping them in together to make my point).

Ethics aside, any legal experts want to weigh in on this?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 08:48:06 PM

Is there an ethical or legal issue here? I don’t know.  But The health Department definitely has some power to levy fines for sure.  Ask restaurants violating laws that put the health of the citizens at risk. 

Maybe Another ethical question To ask along with yours is why a citizen wouldn’t want to help protect the public health?  Are they not patriots?  We are expected to answer questions from cops, IRS, etc as authority figures, but not the department of health, especially in a pandemic, with info to help people stay healthy?

And it didn’t seem like he was happy to be punitive at all.  He literally said All they wanted was for the people to help them, and was happy to get that help to get info to combat the pandemic.
Maybe he was, but you can’t really determine that from his quotes.

I do think that unique threats call for unique solutions.  If the govt acted within its authority to get cooperation from a citizen to protect the public, I am not sure I have a problem with this.  Don’t see it as any different than any other type of investigation.

Looks like thy did the same with a measles outbreak some years ago so there is a precedent

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 03, 2020, 09:47:29 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 08:48:06 PM

Is there an ethical or legal issue here? I don’t know.  But The health Department definitely has some power to levy fines for sure.  Ask restaurants violating laws that put the health of the citizens at risk. 

I do think that unique threats call for unique solutions.  If the govt acted within its authority to get cooperation from a citizen to protect the public, I am not sure I have a problem with this. 

Of course there are laws on the books about the requirements a restaurant must follow. I was just curious if laws existed for them to enact punitive damages to individuals as in this instance. If there are, that is fine. Proceed with due course (as they did in the measles situation). If there are not, I don't like the idea they can make them up as they go, despite trying to solve a very unique problem. And if there are not, I can respect some people not wanting to answer that phone call because they don't like the unknown they could face based on their answers. There is also the privacy issue many people take pretty seriously*.


*despite letting Facebook, Google, and Amazon know everything about their family, friends, financial info, shopping and spending habits, etc...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 03, 2020, 10:08:15 PM

LOL on the *...so true.

But they have the authority to issue fines, and isn't this just a fine for ignoring their subpoena...which it appears they can issue.  Punitive is just another word punishment...in this case a fine is punishment for ignoring the subpoena.
To be honest, I don't see how this isn't any different with getting a subpoena for information in a criminal investigation.  The individual they are asking info from isn't in trouble...but there is an obligation to cooperate for the public good.  Ignoring a subpoena can have "punitive" repercussions....jail time or fines, right?

Maybe I'm wrong and a lawyer here can clarify.  I just don't see much difference, and at this point I think I am ok with this.  JMO though. 
Great topic to bring up in the thread Chris.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 03, 2020, 10:32:52 PM

I was really just trying to get off the topic of masks :D but this story caught my eye and bothered me a bit. Not because of what the dept of health was doing in and of itself; it just surprised me they had that much leverage, and were willing to use it. From what I recall hearing from my governor, cooperation with contact tracers was completely voluntary (I might not be remembering that correctly). I do not know if I like the idea that I have to account for every second of my time to a state entity should I be asked, but if it is all legit and legal, I can live with it.

In other news, in my state businesses are now required to refuse service to any customer not wearing a mask. I don't like this, but I equally, if not more so, dislike that this is where we've found ourselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 04, 2020, 04:08:14 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 03, 2020, 06:33:29 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

I obviously hope it will stay that way, but the death lag is three weeks to a month, as per our data for the first wave.

Hospitalization tends to be almost two weeks after the initial symptoms of illness, and then for some the battle for their lives will begin. And offcourse someone can test positive but not actually be ill for up to two weeks, with more intensive testing of asymptomatic people, this could add to the lag.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 04, 2020, 06:04:50 AM

My sense is that a big part of the high mortality rate in the early stages was due to the spread in long-term care facilities + people with some form of "pre-existing" condition.  What little news I have been paying attention to has suggested a lot of the recent rise is in the 22-44 age bracket.  I know a good work-friend of mine in Texas just wrapped up 6 days in the hospital from COVID (he's 46), and indicated that a breathing tank is going to be his best friend for the summer.  Death rate down is obviously good.  I'm wondering if the hospitalization rate is down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 04, 2020, 06:47:28 AM

I think there's a combo of reasons we haven't seen higher deaths:

We may be a couple weeks away from seeing deaths spike, but I said the same thing a couple weeks ago and we haven't seen it yet.

Elderly care facilities have either already been hit hard and the most weak are already dead, or they've gotten a lot smarter about preventing spread there.

With the rise in cases being largely among low risk people, we won't ever see much of a spike since the vast majority are able to recover on their own without hospitalization.

Widespread testing is catching more asymptomatic cases and the higher testing is yielding a higher number of false positives (likely the same percentage as before, but the pure number goes up), I don't think anyone really knows the false positive rate, but it's surely not zero.

I've also heard that they're counting positive tests, not positive patients. I don't know if this is true or not, but the same person may test positive several times since they're continuing to test them until they come back negative.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 04, 2020, 08:07:47 AM

Here is an ENG report I could find from a couple of months back showing why there was a death lag of about a month in the UK:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8192993/The-coronavirus-death-lag-explained-weeks-fatality-recorded.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8192993/The-coronavirus-death-lag-explained-weeks-fatality-recorded.html)

I have no idea about the Daily Mail as a news source, but from the seminars and reports we got at work, I think the image showing the timelines look about right.

But yes, testing plays a role for sure. Testing for viruses has never been done on this scale and tests have been ramped up massively since the initial wave, so you will detect asymptomatic cases to a much larger degree. When the amount of confirmed asymptomatic/very mild cases ramps up significantly, that will obviously affect the percentage of deaths (lower them). But as far as I am aware, there is little scientific basis to believe the virus has "weakened", thus at some point, it is expected a lot of people will die if a lot of people are infected. Just not necessarily the same percentage as before. And I sincerely hope that percentage will be much lower, because it seems some US areas in particular are tracking well beyond the first peaks in terms of positive cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 04, 2020, 08:51:54 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 04, 2020, 06:47:28 AM

I think there's a combo of reasons we haven't seen higher deaths:

We may be a couple weeks away from seeing deaths spike, but I said the same thing a couple weeks ago and we haven't seen it yet.

Elderly care facilities have either already been hit hard and the most weak are already dead, or they've gotten a lot smarter about preventing spread there.

With the rise in cases being largely among low risk people, we won't ever see much of a spike since the vast majority are able to recover on their own without hospitalization.

Widespread testing is catching more asymptomatic cases and the higher testing is yielding a higher number of false positives (likely the same percentage as before, but the pure number goes up), I don't think anyone really knows the false positive rate, but it's surely not zero.

I've also heard that they're counting positive tests, not positive patients. I don't know if this is true or not, but the same person may test positive several times since they're continuing to test them until they come back negative.

I believe that to be the case too.  Here in Ontario, anyone who wants a test can get one, and in some cases (eg, visiting a long term care facility; elective surgeries), you HAVE to get tested first.  That said, we’re not seeing the explosion in cases that several US States are, so those alone can’t explain the rise you guys are seeing south of the border.

All that said, once someone tests positive, it’s not like they get tested again unless they believe it was a false positive. Still... can’t see that being the cause for he spikes that are occurring.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 04, 2020, 12:12:15 PM

So, a manager from Veneto, a region bordering Lombardy (the one with Venice), went to Serbia, came back infected to Italy, didn't call the doctors even if he had a fever, he still attended meetings and even a birthday party.

Now there's a spike in contagions obviously, and the governor of the region is super pissed (and righteously so) and calls for more strict measures.

This is where stubborn people who think they know better lead you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 05, 2020, 07:56:12 AM

Yikes yikes yikes. I'm sorry someone was stupid enough to do that, and I'm sorry our government has let the virus run rampant and infect so many people just so that they could have a nice election season for themselves: https://balkaninsight.com/2020/06/22/serbia-under-reported-covid-19-deaths-and-infections-data-shows/

I have a long, long, long post about this whole mess but I suppose it's more fitting for the "bitch and moan about how coronavirus is ruining your life".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 05, 2020, 10:15:00 AM

11,445 new cases in FL in ONE DAY.  Gov DeSantis needs to grow a sack and take some action.  He is the biggest Florida Man right now.  Ugh I'm not leaving my house.
ALL the parents on my 11 yr kids travel team threw BBQ pool party this weekend.  I was the only one to have sense enough to celebrate with my family at home.  And before you ask, none of them practice safe distancing or wear masks.  So frustrating. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2020, 03:10:54 PM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on July 03, 2020, 01:21:55 PM

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2020, 03:14:49 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 03, 2020, 06:33:29 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

No surprise to me at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on July 05, 2020, 09:38:30 PM

I'm a front-line worker (hospital) and I wear a mask all day along with so many others.  Surgeons have been wearing them during operations as well as nurses and anyone else in the room.  I wore a mask for my wife's entire labor.

It's beyond insulting to myself and people who already wear them, and have been wearing them for years and years, that Karen and Kevin can't be bothered to wear one for a small portion of their day for a temporary situation after which they can go back to their normal lives.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 06, 2020, 01:08:05 AM

Quote from: PetFish on July 05, 2020, 09:38:30 PM

I'm a front-line worker (hospital) and I wear a mask all day along with so many others.  Surgeons have been wearing them during operations as well as nurses and anyone else in the room.  I wore a mask for my wife's entire labor.

It's beyond insulting to myself and people who already wear them, and have been wearing them for years and years, that Karen and Kevin can't be bothered to wear one for a small portion of their day for a temporary situation after which they can go back to their normal lives.

 :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on July 06, 2020, 01:15:24 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2020, 03:10:54 PM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on July 03, 2020, 01:21:55 PM

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

Neither he nor his wife noticed any symptoms and living in sweden we don't have to worry about insurance. Going to the doctor costs 200 SEK up to a maximum of 1150 SEK a year.

If you need medicins you might have to pay up to 2350 SEK a year.

But nobody in sweden refrains from going to the doctor because of cost.

Symptoms on underlying issues are not always easy to spot.

That is why I take a health test at least every fifth year. EKG or blood or urine can show signs of issues much earlier than you notice any symptoms. Costs a bit, but well worth it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 06, 2020, 02:25:27 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2020, 03:10:54 PM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on July 03, 2020, 01:21:55 PM

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

I think that posters point was that some people don't know they have underlying factors until thing go wrong (like a virus, in this case).

People really underestimate how common underlying health issues are though, and tend to think they don't belong to that group. If you count hypertension, diabetes, asthma, obesity and morbid obesity, you will have more than half of the adult US population. More than a 100 million adult US citizens have hypertension, for example, as per the cdc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on July 06, 2020, 02:56:39 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 06, 2020, 02:25:27 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2020, 03:10:54 PM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on July 03, 2020, 01:21:55 PM

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

I think that posters point was that some people don't know they have underlying factors until thing go wrong (like a virus, in this case).

People really underestimate how common underlying health issues are though, and tend to think they don't belong to that group. If you count hypertension, diabetes, asthma, obesity and morbid obesity, you will have more than half of the adult US population. More than a 100 million adult US citizens have hypertension, for example, as per the cdc.

Indeed ... it is so for me too. I had no symptoms but because of issues in the family bought a blood pressure gauge. Now, since a few days I am on medication.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on July 07, 2020, 12:50:02 PM

Latest stats from the hospital where I work.

52 positive Covid patients.
102 PUI'S
50 staff infected and out.

The line of patients outside the ER this morning at 5:30am, wrapped around the exterior wall.

It's damn scary right now. Central Florida is blowing up with Covid.

We've got no rooms left to put patients so they are lined up in the hall of the ER.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 07, 2020, 12:52:14 PM

Quote from: emtee on July 07, 2020, 12:50:02 PM

Latest stats from the hospital where I work.

52 positive Covid patients.
102 PUI'S
50 staff infected and out.

The line of patients outside the ER this morning at 5:30am, wrapped around the exterior wall.

It's damn scary right now. Central Florida is blowing up with Covid.

We've got no rooms left to put patients so they are lined up in the hall of the ER.

Damn. My entire state only had 61 cases across all hospitals as of this morning. Best of luck to you  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 07, 2020, 03:25:02 PM

My first covid test came back negative, as did the bulk of my coworkers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 07, 2020, 03:28:22 PM

Olè!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 07, 2020, 03:33:56 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 07, 2020, 03:38:00 PM

Good news RJ!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 07, 2020, 03:44:47 PM

1 for 1. Batting 1.000

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 07, 2020, 06:26:34 PM

Quote from: lonestar on July 07, 2020, 03:25:02 PM

My first covid test came back negative, as did the bulk of my coworkers.

Hot damn. Have a drink on me! 

Iced tea... or sprite.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 08, 2020, 02:53:30 AM

Quote from: emtee on July 07, 2020, 12:50:02 PM

Latest stats from the hospital where I work.

52 positive Covid patients.
102 PUI'S
50 staff infected and out.

The line of patients outside the ER this morning at 5:30am, wrapped around the exterior wall.

It's damn scary right now. Central Florida is blowing up with Covid.

We've got no rooms left to put patients so they are lined up in the hall of the ER.

I wish you all well, hopefully all patients can get the care they need and all the workers will remain safe/recover quickly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on July 08, 2020, 11:43:41 PM

Any reactions to the spike of cases in Tulsa following Donald Trumps rally there.

Saw this reported in a swedish newspaper and found a lot of articles from the US. Incuding this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/07/08/trump-rally-more-than-likely-led-to-coronavirus-spike-in-tulsa-health-official-says/amp/

I'm not at all surprised about this. To me it was such an irresponsible thing to do in the midst of a pandemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 09, 2020, 07:59:28 AM

It's definitely possible, but not many people showed up so I'm not entirely sure it's the #1 cause of the spike in a region that was getting worse already, but it certainly doesn't help when you weren't required to wear a mask to that rally.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 09, 2020, 08:01:27 AM

It'll be like anything else in American politics over the last 15 years or so, no surprises:

"Think Trump is a walking douche nozzle with no redeeming qualities and the mental capacity of a snail", then "Most likely contributed" will mean "everything that stems from June 20 will be his fault, directly, and someone should sue or impeach or both", and "several large events over the past two weeks" will mean "Trump's rally only".

"Think Trump has been sent by Christ, given a big brain and even bigger balls, all to save us from the commie pinkos", then "Most likely contributed" will mean "more fake news looking to pin everything bad on someone who doesn't play ball, doesn't coddle the weak, and doesn't fall for the liberal bullcrap" and "several large events over the past two weeks" will mean "anything but Trump's rally". 

As usual, the truth will be at some point in between.  The R_t (basically R₀ at any given point in time, since the number is fluid) for Oklahoma is still above 1, but it's lower than it was a month ago and roughly the same as it was two weeks ago.  So it's hard to say.   Subjectively, it was a stupid move and it certainly sends the wrong message, but there are other states doing far worse, and only 8 states (yay Connecticut!) have achieved the magic number of R_t less than 1. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 09, 2020, 09:37:50 AM

You can't make people social distance and wear masks.  They have to make that decision themselves.  If you can't social distance, wear a mask and vise versa.  Going to a campaign rally without a mask is irresponsible just like any other social gathering.  Numbers have spiked in numerous states.  Campaign rallies aren't the cause of that.  People are.  If people are willing to take that risk, then they shouldn't cry about it later when they get sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 09, 2020, 09:46:19 AM

NJ is saying that even outside you should be wearing a mask if you can't be socially distant.  I don't know how you enforce that, but I mean, it makes sense like if you are protesting or at a crowded outdoor space.  I'm starting to feel like being outdoors is generally really safe, but it's the people that aren't.  I think our NJ governor has been very strict with his rules, but the end result is NJ has been in pretty good shape since the breakout.  As much as it sucks, it's hard to argue against the strict rules as they have been effective. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 09, 2020, 09:48:19 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 09, 2020, 09:46:19 AM

NJ is saying that even outside you should be wearing a mask if you can't be socially distant.  I don't know how you enforce that, but I mean, it makes sense like if you are protesting or at a crowded outdoor space.  I'm starting to feel like being outdoors is generally really safe, but it's the people that aren't.  I think our NJ governor has been very strict with his rules, but the end result is NJ has been in pretty good shape since the breakout.  As much as it sucks, it's hard to argue against the strict rules as they have been effective.

Feeling very much the same in CT.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 12:16:44 PM

Feeling very much un-same in FL.

I was told by the parents and coaches of my kids travel softball team, that if I didn’t like it I should leave the team.  What I said I didn’t like was the team (Parents, coaches, and kids) was not following porotcol set forth by the team/organization/and city.  And that they hid a parent being sick and waiting for test results!  All the parents party together with no protection and it was only 8 days ago.  I was FURIOUS.  I went to the leave director and he was none too happy.  And my 10 yr old daughter is heartbroken she can’t play with her friends.... all because Asshole parents who think softball is the most important thing in the world, especially someone’s health.  I found out about the parent by accident too because I’m the ostracized parent who wants to team to practice appropriate pandemic protocol.  W T F is wrong with people.  And iM told to leave if I don’t like it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 09, 2020, 12:44:08 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 12:16:44 PM

Feeling very much un-same in FL.

I was told by the parents and coaches of my kids travel softball team, that if I didn’t like it I should leave the team.  What I said I didn’t like was the team (Parents, coaches, and kids) was not following porotcol set forth by the team/organization/and city.  And that they hid a parent being sick and waiting for test results!  All the parents party together with no protection and it was only 8 days ago.  I was FURIOUS.  I went to the leave director and he was none too happy.  And my 10 yr old daughter is heartbroken she can’t play with her friends.... all because Asshole parents who think softball is the most important thing in the world, especially someone’s health.  I found out about the parent by accident too because I’m the ostracized parent who wants to team to practice appropriate pandemic protocol.  W T F is wrong with people.  And iM told to leave if I don’t like it?

If I was in Florida, I wouldn't fuck around with any of that. I don't know if 211 is a national thing, but if it is, I'd drop them a tip. I've basically been inside for four months now. I want things to get back to normal, and that's not going to happen with people behaving that way in places Florida. 

We got an email from our CEO yesterday telling us to ignore his email from last month that discussed opening the office the week after Labor Day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 09, 2020, 12:55:16 PM

They aren't opening our NYC office until 2021 other than a few essential people.

Work has really slowed down though, I find myself pretty bored even when I come into work these days  (my coworker and I rotate 2 days  a week and we both stay home on Fridays).  Just business demands are much lower these days, no one wants to spend money either.  I'm not worried about my job, as I've been deemed essential, but I definitely feel layoffs are coming by end of year or early 2021 for other teams (they pretty much said so in our company meeting yesterday) which isn't all covid related, but I think it plays a big role.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 12:57:21 PM

They have already been warned by the city.  They need the city as they play on city fields.  Now with this I could get them shut down.  Problem is that ALL the other teams in the program are basically great and take this seriously.  All except the asshats on this team.  The director knows I have them by the balls.  I’m just waiting to see how he handles this.  He says he is investigating.  We’ll see

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 09, 2020, 01:01:11 PM

You'd think - since it's an organization that seems about and for the kids - that they'd want to set an example for them on how to be a team player, with pun absolutely intended.  I feel bad for those children.   

Good luck (sincerely). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: v_clortho on July 09, 2020, 02:12:08 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 12:57:21 PM

They have already been warned by the city.  They need the city as they play on city fields.  Now with this I could get them shut down.  Problem is that ALL the other teams in the program are basically great and take this seriously.  All except the asshats on this team.  The director knows I have them by the balls.  I’m just waiting to see how he handles this.  He says he is investigating.  We’ll see

Can't you transfer to a different team?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on July 09, 2020, 03:30:05 PM

Quote from: v_clortho on July 09, 2020, 02:12:08 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 12:57:21 PM

They have already been warned by the city.  They need the city as they play on city fields.  Now with this I could get them shut down.  Problem is that ALL the other teams in the program are basically great and take this seriously.  All except the asshats on this team.  The director knows I have them by the balls.  I’m just waiting to see how he handles this.  He says he is investigating.  We’ll see

Can't you transfer to a different team?

I like to stay busy, but not swamped.  I have been where you are before and it sucks when you do not have much to do.  The work days go by so much slower.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 03:48:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 09, 2020, 01:01:11 PM

You'd think - since it's an organization that seems about and for the kids - that they'd want to set an example for them on how to be a team player, with pun absolutely intended.  I feel bad for those children.   

Good luck (sincerely).

Thanks Stadler.  But I disagree.  (Lol old habits)
They say the worst thing about youth sports is the parents.  No truer a statement has been made.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 03:50:15 PM

Quote from: v_clortho on July 09, 2020, 02:12:08 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 12:57:21 PM

They have already been warned by the city.  They need the city as they play on city fields.  Now with this I could get them shut down.  Problem is that ALL the other teams in the program are basically great and take this seriously.  All except the asshats on this team.  The director knows I have them by the balls.  I’m just waiting to see how he handles this.  He says he is investigating.  We’ll see

Can't you transfer to a different team?

At this point there wouldn’t be much of a choice.  Can’t really go back there now.  The season is over this month so no biggie.  Tryouts for fall ball in August, so we will look at other teams to play on for a bit while this gets resolved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 09, 2020, 03:51:54 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 03:48:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 09, 2020, 01:01:11 PM

You'd think - since it's an organization that seems about and for the kids - that they'd want to set an example for them on how to be a team player, with pun absolutely intended.  I feel bad for those children.   

Good luck (sincerely).

Thanks Stadler.  But I disagree.  (Lol old habits)
They say the worst thing about youth sports is the parents.  No truer a statement has been made.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FixedVainInvisiblerail-size_restricted.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 09, 2020, 05:59:45 PM

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 10, 2020, 02:55:11 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 03:48:23 PM

They say the worst thing about youth sports is the parents.  No truer a statement has been made.

Yep. It's pretty remarkable how ignorant parents can be. I've seen some crazy  :censored with the hockey parents of the kids I've coached. You'd think there were mortgages and pink slips on the line the way they respond to the game being played......mind you these are 10/11/12 year old kids. It's embarrassingly entertaining though......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on July 10, 2020, 04:14:10 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 10, 2020, 02:55:11 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 03:48:23 PM

They say the worst thing about youth sports is the parents.  No truer a statement has been made.

Yep. It's pretty remarkable how ignorant parents can be. I've seen some crazy  :censored with the hockey parents of the kids I've coached. You'd think there were mortgages and pink slips on the line the way they respond to the game being played......mind you these are 10/11/12 year old kids. It's embarrassingly entertaining though......

How often do you see parents talk smack at the ref and how often do you see them have that look that looks like they are threatening to go to the rink and punch the ref?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 10, 2020, 04:23:22 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on July 10, 2020, 04:14:10 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 10, 2020, 02:55:11 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 09, 2020, 03:48:23 PM

They say the worst thing about youth sports is the parents.  No truer a statement has been made.

Yep. It's pretty remarkable how ignorant parents can be. I've seen some crazy  :censored with the hockey parents of the kids I've coached. You'd think there were mortgages and pink slips on the line the way they respond to the game being played......mind you these are 10/11/12 year old kids. It's embarrassingly entertaining though......

How often do you see parents talk smack at the ref and how often do you see them have that look that looks like they are threatening to go to the rink and punch the ref?

Well.....the ages I coach and the skill level I coach......typically the Refs are young Refs just learning the game so for the most part the parents cut them a break. I've seen some yelling at these 13/14 year old kids who are just learning to ref and trying their best and it's like "seriously.....you're going to yell at a freaking 13 year old for missing an offside call or a trip?"

It's mainly the parents going after one another in the stands.....mostly verbally but sometimes physically. It's just surprising to me considering the ages that are playing and the fact that the teams I coach are beginning skill level kids.....they're not even in the super competitive skilled divisions. These kids are just learning and the parents think it's the freaking Cup Finals every game

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 10, 2020, 08:20:07 PM

On the topic of sports, Covid19 is sure on course to wreck collegiate sports, and it is just beginning. The fallout from this could be huge.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 11, 2020, 06:01:17 AM

Yeah, I don't see how college sports can be done in a safe way this fall. I think they ought to just cancel everything personally, and of course honor scholarships and give each person an additional year of eligibility if they want it. At a minimum they need to let athletes opt out without losing scholarships or eligibility.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on July 11, 2020, 08:23:09 AM

Do you guys think handshakes will ever come back?

I would be totally cool with bowing being the new normal greeting. Its funny now encountering the awkwardness as people almost kneejerk get ready to go for a handshake and then re-think it  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 11, 2020, 08:25:56 AM

Quote from: Phoenix87x on July 11, 2020, 08:23:09 AM

Do you guys think handshakes will ever come back?

I would be totally cool with bowing being the new normal greeting. Its funny now encountering the awkwardness as people almost kneejerk get ready to go for a handshake and then re-think it  :lol

I hope so.....but yeah, it is an awkward moment now  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 11, 2020, 09:13:21 AM

(https://www.startrek.com/sites/default/files/images/2019-05/tos3x05j.png)

In all seriousness, this has been my greeting and goodbye since the middle of March.  My wife has even learned how to do this. 

I miss meetings and gatherings.  In the past few years, my wife and I have come to know our local and state officials to the point of being recognized on a first name basis, and we miss the handshakes and hugs.  As well as with family and friends and close acquaintances.  Such is life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:15:53 AM

^^ I physically cannot do that. Never have. Can put one set of fingers together... can't do the other. :getoffmylawn:

I'm fine with never shaking people's hands again. Even before the pandemic I always thought it was gross. Bring back the ancient forearm shake instead

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 09:48:47 AM

I guess I'm indifferent.  I didn't mind hand shakes before all this, but I certainly don't miss them either.  I don't really think there even has to be a replacement.  Just saying "nice to meet you" or something for new people or "good to see you" seems fine to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Lethean, your ideas are exclusionary towards people who can't speak. And don't say 'good to see you' to a blind person. (I'M JOKING! :) )

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 11, 2020, 09:58:12 AM

I don't mind the occasional handshake but I sure do miss hugs. Hugs with family. Hugs with friends. Hugs with strangers. From the moment we're born, we're just the hugging type.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:59:54 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Ok, TAC.

https://medium.com/re-write/the-man-nod-fcb56882a9b4

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:02:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Lethean, your ideas are exclusionary towards people who can't speak. And don't say 'good to see you' to a blind person. (I'M JOKING! :) )

Not really sure why you think that's funny.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 10:03:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:59:54 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Ok, TAC.

https://medium.com/re-write/the-man-nod-fcb56882a9b4

You are literally the first person I've ever heard reference this, Chad! Don't swing the TAC hammer around so carelessly!  :lol :lol

Quote from: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:02:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Lethean, your ideas are exclusionary towards people who can't speak. And don't say 'good to see you' to a blind person. (I'M JOKING! :) )

Not really sure why you think that's funny.

It was just a joke... easy. No maliciousness in there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:08:07 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 10:03:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:59:54 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Ok, TAC.

https://medium.com/re-write/the-man-nod-fcb56882a9b4

You are literally the first person I've ever heard reference this, Chad! Don't swing the TAC hammer around so carelessly!  :lol :lol

Quote from: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:02:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Lethean, your ideas are exclusionary towards people who can't speak. And don't say 'good to see you' to a blind person. (I'M JOKING! :) )

Not really sure why you think that's funny.

It was just a joke... easy. No maliciousness in there.

Still not really sure why you think that's funny.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 11, 2020, 10:10:48 AM

I have never heard of that up/down nod either, but am intrigued. The less I have to communicate and interact with others the happier I am. But I suppose there is still enough humanity left in me to least acknowledge the mere existence of other individuals should I encounter them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 11, 2020, 10:18:49 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

That about sums it up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 11, 2020, 11:52:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

Yeah, I'm with Mike and Chris.  Never heard of this.

Quote from: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:08:07 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 10:03:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:59:54 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Ok, TAC.

https://medium.com/re-write/the-man-nod-fcb56882a9b4

You are literally the first person I've ever heard reference this, Chad! Don't swing the TAC hammer around so carelessly!  :lol :lol

Quote from: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:02:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Lethean, your ideas are exclusionary towards people who can't speak. And don't say 'good to see you' to a blind person. (I'M JOKING! :) )

Not really sure why you think that's funny.

It was just a joke... easy. No maliciousness in there.

Still not really sure why you think that's funny.

Probably because...it's funny?

Let's not derail the discussion just because we disagree over humor, ok?  Not that big a deal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 11:59:53 AM

But if you think about how you silently greet people, is the ‘man-nod’ not the way you do it?  See a familiar face from across the room, what do you do?  Pass a stranger in the hallway at work, what do you do?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 11, 2020, 12:00:59 PM

Smile and wink is my go-to, but I'm no stranger to the nod.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2020, 12:02:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 11:59:53 AM

But if you think about how you silently greet people, is the ‘man-nod’ not the way you do it?  See a familiar face from across the room, what do you do?  Pass a stranger in the hallway at work, what do you do?

I got to say I never heard of the different ways to nod and their reasonings. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 12:07:47 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on July 11, 2020, 12:02:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 11:59:53 AM

But if you think about how you silently greet people, is the ‘man-nod’ not the way you do it?  See a familiar face from across the room, what do you do?  Pass a stranger in the hallway at work, what do you do?

I got to say I never heard of the different ways to nod and their reasonings.

Clearly, none of you are men

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2020, 12:12:11 PM

I always hated the upwards nod because punks do that to look tough. 

Old man rant over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 11, 2020, 02:24:16 PM

I gotta side with the other 'non men' here, you be smoking too much of that shitty canadian weed bro.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2020, 02:27:36 PM

American - Brah.
Canadian  - Breh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 11, 2020, 02:34:46 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on July 11, 2020, 05:13:48 PM

Quote from: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:02:31 AM

Not really sure why you think that's funny.

Because it *is* funny.

Not sure why you're coming across as being upset about it.  There was nothing malicious about it at all and saying "good to see you" is a ubiquitous greeting these days and, at worst, something that people say to be polite without even giving it a second thought.  I'd be more upset if I were blind and someone didn't greet me at all.

It's like saying "Merry Christmas" and getting upset by that instead of being happy and feeling good that someone is being nice in the first place.

Take it easy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 11, 2020, 06:12:46 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 10:03:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:59:54 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

This is totally news to me.

Ok, TAC.

https://medium.com/re-write/the-man-nod-fcb56882a9b4

You are literally the first person I've ever heard reference this, Chad! Don't swing the TAC hammer around so carelessly!  :lol :lol

 :lol

WUT?



So I have never heard of an official Nod Protocol, but I think what Chad says might be it just actually how it works.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 06:28:33 PM

Quote from: PetFish on July 11, 2020, 05:13:48 PM

Quote from: Lethean on July 11, 2020, 10:02:31 AM

Not really sure why you think that's funny.

Because it *is* funny.

I don't really see anything funny about it.

Quote

Not sure why you're coming across as being upset about it.  There was nothing malicious about it at all and saying "good to see you" is a ubiquitous greeting these days and, at worst, something that people say to be polite without even giving it a second thought.  I'd be more upset if I were blind and someone didn't greet me at all.

I can't say for sure, but I probably would too.  I'm not sure if you think I think saying "good to see you" is some kind of insult to anyone, but I certainly don't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 06:31:00 PM

A little sense of humor goes a long way. Jeeze... "Lighten up, Francis."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 11, 2020, 06:51:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 06:31:00 PM

A little sense of humor goes a long way. Jeeze... "Lighten up, Francis."

How many guys are you trying to get to quit the forum? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on July 11, 2020, 06:56:43 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 11, 2020, 06:51:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 06:31:00 PM

A little sense of humor goes a long way. Jeeze... "Lighten up, Francis."

How many guys are you trying to get to quit the forum? :lol

One per week in July seems to be the goal. :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 11, 2020, 06:59:36 PM

(https://media.giphy.com/media/PlrIPiLWKXsan8OX7E/giphy.gif)

I mean ideally the count is still at 0 but preferably no greater than single digits

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2020, 07:13:26 PM

Come at me brah.

See, I'm from America brah!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 11, 2020, 07:17:12 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on July 11, 2020, 07:13:26 PM

See, I'm an America brah!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ChePzcq4L._AC_UL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2020, 07:20:06 PM

Tim, see the Canadian/American joke on saying bros. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 11, 2020, 07:20:52 PM

Not really, no. :lol

*nods down*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2020, 07:28:35 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 07:40:17 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 11, 2020, 07:20:52 PM

Not really, no. :lol

*nods down*

You're doing it wrong already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2020, 07:52:14 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 11, 2020, 07:56:14 PM

*nods up and then down*  :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 11, 2020, 10:54:45 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 12, 2020, 02:12:05 AM

Second day of high fever and dry cough (not too alarming so far) for a member of my household. House not big enough for him to fully self-isolate so uh keep your fingers crossed for me. If it's not the rony, I'm still going to kill him as soon as he's well because he was not careful enough and caught a bug, which means he could have easily caught the virus too. Yesterday a friend of a friend went to a covid center to get tested because she has a fever and has had contact with someone who tested positive, they turned her away because there aren't enough tests and told her to come back if her condition gets worse. Why aren't there enough tests? Because the state govt got pissed at the public health institute in my city for publishing the real numbers of positive tests and now they're only sending 100 tests per day, for a city of 200 000 people. Just another day of being stuck in Serbia.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 12, 2020, 05:28:18 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 12, 2020, 02:12:05 AM

Second day of high fever and dry cough (not too alarming so far) for a member of my household. House not big enough for him to fully self-isolate so uh keep your fingers crossed for me. If it's not the rony, I'm still going to kill him as soon as he's well because he was not careful enough and caught a bug, which means he could have easily caught the virus too. Yesterday a friend of a friend went to a covid center to get tested because she has a fever and has had contact with someone who tested positive, they turned her away because there aren't enough tests and told her to come back if her condition gets worse. Why aren't there enough tests? Because the state govt got pissed at the public health institute in my city for publishing the real numbers of positive tests and now they're only sending 100 tests per day, for a city of 200 000 people. Just another day of being stuck in Serbia.

Well this was a gut-punch for a Sunday morning.  Hope your household-mates issue is not COVID.  Fingers and toes are crossed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on July 12, 2020, 06:23:40 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 11, 2020, 09:51:15 AM

As every male learned in high-school and Uni/College, an upward nod for people you know; downward nod for people you don't.

Wow, I do this but never realized I do it differently for people I know or don't :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 12, 2020, 07:34:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 11, 2020, 06:12:46 PM

So I have never heard of an official Nod Protocol, but I think what Chad says might be it just actually how it works.

That’s kind of where I’m parked. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 12, 2020, 07:39:34 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 12, 2020, 07:34:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 11, 2020, 06:12:46 PM

So I have never heard of an official Nod Protocol, but I think what Chad says might be it just actually how it works.

That’s kind of where I’m parked.

:chino2:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 12, 2020, 09:26:13 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 12, 2020, 07:39:34 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 12, 2020, 07:34:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 11, 2020, 06:12:46 PM

So I have never heard of an official Nod Protocol, but I think what Chad says might be it just actually how it works.

That’s kind of where I’m parked.

:chino2:

Yup me too.  Never knew of a protocol, but when I played the scenarios in my head, they worked perfectly.  I will now spread the gospel of the head nod protocol far and wide.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 12, 2020, 10:24:57 AM

I didn't know I had a second emote! Awesome  :lol

 :metal :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on July 12, 2020, 12:09:14 PM

Florida shattered the single-day record for covid-19 cases in the U.S. with 15,300. Tough and scary times for all. Next week will be a test of fortitude at the hospital where I work. Ugh!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 12, 2020, 02:48:19 PM

Quote from: emtee on July 12, 2020, 12:09:14 PM

Florida shattered the single-day record for covid-19 cases in the U.S. with 15,300. Tough and scary times for all. Next week will be a test of fortitude at the hospital where I work. Ugh!

Unreal that Fla has eclipsed the worst of what NY was going thru in March/April.   :omg:  :'(

WEAR A DAMNED MASK! (that's not at you emtee - that's at the entire fucking state).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 12, 2020, 02:58:52 PM

And the NBA thought it was safe to restart the season in Orlando. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 12, 2020, 03:28:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 12, 2020, 05:28:18 AM

Hope your household-mates issue is not COVID.

Me too. I legitimately don't know of any other place in the world where you can't even access a test unless you're already in the hospital (to which they only admit you after you already have full blown pneumonia), and where they forge the death statistics too. They dropped the ball so spectacularly, so deliberately, so maliciously, and no one will ever go to jail for this, and no one will care.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 12, 2020, 05:38:27 PM

If I lived in The Villages, I'd be locking my door and not going out for about a month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 12, 2020, 05:38:48 PM

:(  That sounds awful Mora.  I'm hoping you can get back home soon and stay safe until then.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 13, 2020, 09:50:36 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on July 12, 2020, 02:58:52 PM

And the NBA thought it was safe to restart the season in Orlando.

meanwhile Disney is opening up in Orlando

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on July 14, 2020, 12:01:00 AM

I'm worried now that there won't even be an NFL season.  I was sure by the fall things would be fine and had no doubt NFL would be the one league not really affected by the pandemic but not any more.

If USA was doing as well as anyone else then there'd be no issues but the fact that USA is going so far backward leaves everything in jeopardy.  I don't even know why baseball/basketball/hockey are even bothering with the way things are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 14, 2020, 06:21:07 AM

Quote from: PetFish on July 14, 2020, 12:01:00 AM

I don't even know why baseball/basketball/hockey are even bothering with the way things are.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

On a less cynical note, we need to figure out how to live with Covid, not just crawl under a rock and hide from it. We're going to be dealing with it for several months to maybe even a year or two. We need to figure out how to do normal life stuff while also taking some reasonable precautions. Professional sports are no different.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 14, 2020, 06:26:42 AM

Sure it's money, but people have to go back to work. Even millionaires. (And that's not a shot at rich athletes). But is a statement that some people don't have an option.


They mentioned on the news this morning that a WNBA player was denied an opt out. That doesn't seem right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 14, 2020, 06:33:51 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 14, 2020, 06:26:42 AM

Sure it's money, but people have to go back to work. Even millionaires. (And that's not a shot at rich athletes). But is a statement that some people don't have an option.


They mentioned on the news this morning that a WNBA player was denied an opt out. That doesn't seem right.

I'm not sure how I feel about being able to opt out from your job or contract. I can't just opt out of going to work and expect my job to be waiting for me when I decide I feel safe again. Nor should I be able to just decide not to go in and be able to collect unemployment or other benefits. Obviously I can just quit and stay home if I have the financial freedom to do so, and so could professional sports players.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 14, 2020, 07:02:20 AM

Well I point it out because for some reason they’re allowing NBA players to opt out, but not a WNBA player.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 14, 2020, 07:04:20 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 14, 2020, 07:02:20 AM

Well I point it out because for some reason they’re allowing NBA players to opt out, but not a WNBA player.

Yeah, that's definitely not fair.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 14, 2020, 07:23:31 AM

It could  be part of the collective bargaining agreement.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 14, 2020, 07:36:47 AM

There could be legit legal reasons, but come on.  The WNBA does not need to be played, and those players should not be required to return. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 14, 2020, 07:44:15 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 14, 2020, 07:36:47 AM

There could be legit legal reasons, but come on.  The WNBA does not need to be played, and those players should not be required to return.

Oh, I'm not arguing with you on that at all.  I'm just offering why there might be a different answer for each league, and why there might be a different answer for you and me (i.e. regular working Joe's).   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 14, 2020, 08:30:55 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 14, 2020, 07:23:31 AM

It could  be part of the collective bargaining agreement.

So there’s that. Sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 14, 2020, 08:55:13 AM

Some good news locally:

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/new-york-city-reports-no-covid-deaths-24-hours (https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/new-york-city-reports-no-covid-deaths-24-hours)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on July 14, 2020, 12:43:03 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 14, 2020, 06:21:07 AM

Quote from: PetFish on July 14, 2020, 12:01:00 AM

I don't even know why baseball/basketball/hockey are even bothering with the way things are.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

On a less cynical note, we need to figure out how to live with Covid, not just crawl under a rock and hide from it. We're going to be dealing with it for several months to maybe even a year or two. We need to figure out how to do normal life stuff while also taking some reasonable precautions. Professional sports are no different.

My confusion/concern is that, sure, it's all about the money, but if the USA is going backwards and deeper into trouble they're taking a much greater risk of it costing way more if they have to cancel all of next season as well.

They should just scrap the current NHL/NBA/MLB (except NFL and hope it at least starts getting better) seasons and eat the losses or take a huge chance that'll it'll be even worse if they have to scrap all of next season just cuz they were in too much of a hurry to get things going.

I agree with living with Covid, and other places have figured it out (ie wear a mask for 15 minutes while out shopping) but the USA just doesn't want to do any of the small things in order to live with it.  Sure, many/most do, but with something like this it doesn't take very many people flouting the recommendations to keep it getting worse and worse... and it all starts at the top.  Any place that has competent leadership is doing well while those places with buffoons running the show are seeing everything go badly.  It doesn't have to be this way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 14, 2020, 12:53:13 PM

Well, NHL was smart enough to set the bubbles in Canada, so there's that.

But I do agree with you.  I have zero belief that these leagues will finish (perhaps not even start) due to the risk of, or an actual, outbreak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 14, 2020, 01:02:39 PM

Rumors in the college football world is a move to the spring for the season or to just schedule 5 home and home games with conference teams a bit later in the fall to avoid traveling and playing against many different teams.  As much as I want football to be played from a personal perspective, I just don't see how they can do it with the way things are currently in the US.  I guess baseball and basketball will show if sports can be played in the US.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 14, 2020, 01:17:53 PM

Quote from: PetFish on July 14, 2020, 12:43:03 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 14, 2020, 06:21:07 AM

Quote from: PetFish on July 14, 2020, 12:01:00 AM

I don't even know why baseball/basketball/hockey are even bothering with the way things are.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

On a less cynical note, we need to figure out how to live with Covid, not just crawl under a rock and hide from it. We're going to be dealing with it for several months to maybe even a year or two. We need to figure out how to do normal life stuff while also taking some reasonable precautions. Professional sports are no different.

My confusion/concern is that, sure, it's all about the money, but if the USA is going backwards and deeper into trouble they're taking a much greater risk of it costing way more if they have to cancel all of next season as well.

They should just scrap the current NHL/NBA/MLB (except NFL and hope it at least starts getting better) seasons and eat the losses or take a huge chance that'll it'll be even worse if they have to scrap all of next season just cuz they were in too much of a hurry to get things going.

I agree with living with Covid, and other places have figured it out (ie wear a mask for 15 minutes while out shopping) but the USA just doesn't want to do any of the small things in order to live with it.  Sure, many/most do, but with something like this it doesn't take very many people flouting the recommendations to keep it getting worse and worse... and it all starts at the top.  Any place that has competent leadership is doing well while those places with buffoons running the show are seeing everything go badly.  It doesn't have to be this way.

I don't know why but that post sort of rubs the wrong way.  By your estimation, Spain, UK, France, Italy and Sweden are all run by "buffoons" because they all have more deaths per 1M population (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) than we do.   State-by-state; regardless of what your political affiliation is, are Andrew Cuomo and Gavin Newsom "buffoons"?   Because they are (or were) both presiding over hotspots.   Gretchen what's-her-name; buffoon?  I don't think so, yet Michigan is in the top third/top half in R₀.

To me, this is a state-level and organization-level issue.  GOVERNORS have the power here.  My governor has issued an executive order regarding masks, based on voluntary compliance.   He has limited travel from something like 16 states, requiring a 14-day quarantine, and is considering a mandatory filing subject to a $2000 fine if not complied with (as New York has done).  As a result - even without legal mandates - we've literally led the nation in lowest R₀ (well, that was a month or so ago; now we're second to Maine, but still. (https://rt.live/))

As for sports, NASCAR seems to be doing okay.  With the racing getups, the drivers actually look bad-ass in the masks. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 14, 2020, 01:42:48 PM

^
Yup.

It doesn't matter if you are Dem or GOP, we have to be 'economists'.  It's best to be 'better safe than sorry' for all.  My wife and I have ventured out to a bar and a restaurant (day time).  Everyone was abiding by the mask rules.  We also order pick up or delivery from various locally owned restaurants, and occasionally visit McD's and Burger King and Sonic, because local people own them and work there, and we all need the economy to not slide down to where we were months ago.

We're revisiting Cooperstown in two weeks.  There won't be the 50K+ when Alan Trammell, Jack Morris, and Chipper Jones, Trevor Hoffman, Vladimir Guerraro, and Jim Thome were inducted.  Timed entries, masks required, etc in the HOF, staying at a BnB that is abiding by all the guidelines, then on to Vermont to perhaps camp. 

I'm lucky that both Maryland and New York have 'had' downturns.  But.....our community called the police due to a couple dozen teens/early 20s holding an outdoor party where no one was masking or distancing (glad that their stereo was the culprit for the call).   It's these type of events which might have led to Maryland's positive results almost doubling in one day.

 :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: goo-goo on July 14, 2020, 02:38:09 PM

So I have a bit of an ethical dilemma

Got exposed last Wednesday from a colleague at work who tested positive.  There was a huge backlog and the earliest I could get a test was this upcoming Thursday.  I managed to find a testing facility on Monday and did the test (results will be back in 3-10 days; 5 days after being exposed which I believe from what I have read, is good since the chance of a false negative goes down). My dilemma is if I should keep the Thursday test or give the slot away...

I have shown no symptoms and have been monitoring my temperature and have none. No underlying conditions.  I want to be reassured that I'm negative but on the other hand if I tested already, maybe I should give up my spot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 14, 2020, 02:46:03 PM

Is there any reason to get tested again so soon after the first test?  I am not seeing any from what you posted, but may be missing something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: goo-goo on July 14, 2020, 02:54:05 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 14, 2020, 02:46:03 PM

Is there any reason to get tested again so soon after the first test?  I am not seeing any from what you posted, but may be missing something.

There's a huge backlog in testing. I was lucky to find that place. Otherwise, it's about a 5 day waiting period for a testing appointment, in addition to the 3-10 days that it takes to get results (10-15 days in total after being exposed).  But I see your point. Maybe I should cancel it and play it out by ear (or symptoms) and just wait for Monday's results.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 14, 2020, 02:57:33 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 14, 2020, 12:53:13 PM

Well, NHL was smart enough to set the bubbles in Canada, so there's that.

But I do agree with you.  I have zero belief that these leagues will finish (perhaps not even start) due to the risk of, or an actual, outbreak.

Really? I expect them to finish.

Next season will be interesting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 14, 2020, 09:05:46 PM

I know it isn't a binary issue, but if it meant kids could go back to school, Hazel could open her salon, and people could have a BBQ with their friends, I say shut down all professional and collegiate athletics for 5 years if that will help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on July 15, 2020, 07:10:34 AM

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/lawmakers-react-to-fox-35-investigation-that-finds-discrepancies-in-covid-19-positive-case-numbers


Not sure what's going on here. Subversion, ineptitude, intention?  Apparently multiple labs reported 100% positivity rates. It's turning into a big deal here in FL.  Seems to me that any lab director who was reviewing data provided to the public and to government, would see a giant red flag and ask his team--wtf is going on here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 15, 2020, 11:30:17 AM

My wife and I were going to have a 5pm get together with her friend at a nice place called McFall's, a few miles away out in the country.  Outdoor dining, great view overlooking a valley......closed due an employee testing positive.  My wife's hair salon shut down for two weeks for the same reason, but are now up to 50% capacity.  And, no, she hasn't been there since February (she still looks great :tup).  Maryland's numbers went up yet again, as well as ICU bed usage. 

Here we go again?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 15, 2020, 11:38:16 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on July 15, 2020, 11:30:17 AM

...Maryland's numbers went up yet again, as well as ICU bed usage. 

Here we go again?

Not necessarily.  I mean, most experts were predicting this sort of pattern in the beginning.  And many were not doing so as part of a "doom and gloom" scenario, but as just a normal part of the cycle.  Remember:  the experts weren't advocating "stay at home" restrictions as a means of wiping out the virus, but rather to "flatten the curve" to buy time so that medical facilities did not get overwhelmed.  Looking at ICU usage being increased, for example, that obviously isn't a GOOD thing.  But it isn't necessarily a HUGE and unexpected thing either.  The real issue is whether that increase is to the point where resources are stretched too thinly to critical levels to where they cannot treat people.   If that is occurring, there is indeed a reason to be concerned.  But if it merely an increase that is not good, but manageable, that's...well, that's just a pretty much unavoidable* consequence of the virus.


*And, yes, it could likely have been mitigated--potentially, SIGNIFICANTLY mitigated--if more people did not flout the stay-at-home and mask orders.  But still likely unavoidable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 15, 2020, 12:06:21 PM

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the prediction of it rising again was when the colder weather settled in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 15, 2020, 12:25:48 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on July 15, 2020, 12:06:21 PM

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the prediction of it rising again was when the colder weather settled in.

Many did, but a lot weren't sure about the timing.  But I'm talking about the "what," not the "when."  I don't think the when is important to my point.  The point is that most medical professionals, virologists, and other experts who know how viruses behave predicted another surge.  And the point was not necessarily to prevent it--because we CAN'T.  It was to delay and spread out the number of cases (and, of course, try out best to mitigate it spreading to the most likely most vulnerable. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 15, 2020, 01:06:34 PM

My thought process was the surge was early with so many getting together and not still being prudent with social distancing. It was always going to surge because until they get a vaccine that is effective. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 15, 2020, 02:18:38 PM

I agree with King.  Too many got back to the way of life before the pandemic.  That life as we knew it is basically over for the unforeseen future and people just don't get it or they're in denial.  ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 15, 2020, 04:23:30 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 14, 2020, 06:21:07 AM

Quote from: PetFish on July 14, 2020, 12:01:00 AM

I don't even know why baseball/basketball/hockey are even bothering with the way things are.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

On a less cynical note, we need to figure out how to live with Covid, not just crawl under a rock and hide from it. We're going to be dealing with it for several months to maybe even a year or two. We need to figure out how to do normal life stuff while also taking some reasonable precautions. Professional sports are no different.

What we as individuals can do, is to better our health, more so now than ever. Do things to lower Heart Disease, and other diseases that can be ailed by a simple diet change. Be more physical. etc...

But I will say, I know how it can seem scary. But we have to look at it this way, and ask this question that I haven't seen asked.

Why are we (as a human race) so fearful of this pandemic? Is it for fear of death?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 15, 2020, 06:15:07 PM

I think that's part of it.  Fear of death, that is.  This might sound a bit off-the-wall, and I don't have any numbers to back it up, but it seems to me that religion used to more "popular" than it is today.  It used to be far more common for people to believe in some kind of deity and/or believe that there is an afterlife.  We'll be somewhere else after we leave this life, this planet, and it's actually something to look forward to.  So people didn't fear death so much.  Also, there used to be more of a sense of duty, or whatever you might call it.  People enlisted to join the army to go over to another country to fight.  People wanted to go, they wanted the opportunity to fight and perhaps even die for what they believed in.  If they died, they go to heaven, and if it was an honorable death, things could be worse for the surviving family.

All of that is far less common today.  Most people have decided that there's no God, this is the only life we get, so it's all about maximizing your take while you're here to take it, and to have it cut short by some kind of disease would really suck.  So in that way, yeah, fearing death is more of a thing now.

Just my theory.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 15, 2020, 06:21:31 PM

I think you present a sound and reasoned argument, Orbert.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 15, 2020, 06:25:29 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 15, 2020, 06:21:31 PM

I think you present a sound and reasoned argument, Orbert.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 15, 2020, 08:35:34 PM

I don't think there's much of a mystery.  Humans, for the most part, want to live.  I'm not an expert on old pandemics, but from reading, it certainly seems that people were afraid of bubonic plague.  When this all started there were interviews with Spanish flu survivors and it seems that people were afraid then too.  I think it's totally normal to not want to die.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 15, 2020, 08:50:38 PM

Yeah, I'm not really even sure why you'd ask the question. It's sensible to fear things that can kill you, since presumably most of us aren't looking to knock off just yet. I mean, we don't ask ourselves 'Now, why are we so afraid of tornadoes?', because it's obvious you want to stay out of a tornado's way 'cause it'll fucking kill you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 15, 2020, 08:59:20 PM

The way information is disseminated today helps us along with that fear since fear drives clicks and ratings. But fear of death is certainly nothing new. Though I think Orbert may be on to something with the religion thing. I'm a Christian and while I'd say I don't necessarily fear death, I certainly don't want to die anytime soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 15, 2020, 10:16:36 PM

Yeah, I'm not saying people haven't always feared death.  It's certainly something most people try to avoid.  But as pointed out, that's mostly instinct, self-preservation.  It just seems to me that some of the reasons people did not fear death so much -- religion and to some extent chivalry and honor -- are less prevalent today than even 50 or 100 years ago.  So with more people not unafraid of death, it stands to reason that more people are afraid, in general.  But again, I have no numbers to prove that, and I don't even think I've read any articles about it.  It's just my impression.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 15, 2020, 10:20:40 PM

Orbert, that is a great response, and you understood what I was getting at in my question.

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 15, 2020, 08:50:38 PM

Yeah, I'm not really even sure why you'd ask the question. It's sensible to fear things that can kill you, since presumably most of us aren't looking to knock off just yet. I mean, we don't ask ourselves 'Now, why are we so afraid of tornadoes?', because it's obvious you want to stay out of a tornado's way 'cause it'll fucking kill you.

It has to do with, would you be fine with dying this moment? If you don't fear death, this shouldn't worry you. You'd accept the fact that death is inevitable.

So should a fear of death prevent you from living freely as God/The Created/etc... Made us with freedom of choice, freewill?

Also, What about Fear of the unknown?

Can you see a trend in the subject of my questions?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 15, 2020, 10:27:35 PM

I would not be fine dying solely (ok, maybe 98%) due to me not wanting my children to grow up without a dad. I guess my wife could remarry and he could raise them as their new father, but I consider myself their one and only dad. And I would not want them to have to go through their childhood without me experiencing all the joys, sorrows, and everything in between every step of the way.

I do not believe in a God, afterlife, or anything other than turning in to dust and bones once I die.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 16, 2020, 12:09:26 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 15, 2020, 10:27:35 PM

I would not be fine dying solely (ok, maybe 98%) due to me not wanting my children to grow up without a dad. I guess my wife could remarry and he could raise them as their new father, but I consider myself their one and only dad. And I would not want them to have to go through their childhood without me experiencing all the joys, sorrows, and everything in between every step of the way.

I do not believe in a God, afterlife, or anything other than turning in to dust and bones once I die.

That is a very valid reason why you would be afraid of death.

How much risk of having that occur are you willing to chance?

People don't see a high risk in going out without a mask. For they are not afraid of dying. They will do this as they don't see it as deadly as much as other things likely to kill people.

Knowing these people will always and continue to do this due to the freewill given to us, what could we that do not want catch it due to fear of death do that will prevent us from catching it? Wearing a mask, hand washing, and sanitizing, going out less, and social distancing.

This is proving you can't force people to go against what they see as against their freewill.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 16, 2020, 04:42:27 AM

I think it has more to do with "It'll never happen to me" than freewill, no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 16, 2020, 05:00:34 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 16, 2020, 04:42:27 AM

I think it has more to do with "It'll never happen to me" than freewill, no?

Yeah, definitively. I'd say that most people have this attitude that it's also justified up to a certain point, I mean.... how many of us consider they could be victims of a car accident when driving? we're all responsable drivers but we don't drive with the "someone can slam into my car at any moment" thought in the back of our head, we'd be paralyzed by fear.

The same with the virus, even while being careful, nobody spends a lot of time imagining themself in intensive care in a hospital. I always try to take no chances, I still avoid as much as possible to touch the gates of my home and I always wash my hands whenever I return (or use the sanitizer), and, no exception, I avoid people, turning my head away from them when they pass close to me (since yesterday in Italy, as long as there's space, you are no longer required to wear a mask in the open).

I'm not scared or paralyzed by fear, but I don't consider myself paranoid for just washing often my hands and steering clear of any person I meet. Heck, I loathe most people anyway so now I'm justified in staying away from them and not wanting them close to me  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 16, 2020, 07:30:10 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 15, 2020, 06:15:07 PM

I think that's part of it.  Fear of death, that is.  This might sound a bit off-the-wall, and I don't have any numbers to back it up, but it seems to me that religion used to more "popular" than it is today.  It used to be far more common for people to believe in some kind of deity and/or believe that there is an afterlife.  We'll be somewhere else after we leave this life, this planet, and it's actually something to look forward to.  So people didn't fear death so much.  Also, there used to be more of a sense of duty, or whatever you might call it.  People enlisted to join the army to go over to another country to fight.  People wanted to go, they wanted the opportunity to fight and perhaps even die for what they believed in.  If they died, they go to heaven, and if it was an honorable death, things could be worse for the surviving family.

All of that is far less common today.  Most people have decided that there's no God, this is the only life we get, so it's all about maximizing your take while you're here to take it, and to have it cut short by some kind of disease would really suck.  So in that way, yeah, fearing death is more of a thing now.

Just my theory.

The numbers don't really support that though; even with the advent of atheism as a more accepted world view, we're in the 75% range on the belief in God (https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/americans-believe-god.aspx) (interestingly to probably only me, the wording of the question is very important; it could be as low as 65% and as high as 90%).   

I don't discount that many are afraid of this pandemic - I know I will cop to being very fearful of dying, for a multitude of reasons - but I think there are other elements to it.  I think my old standby - massive, systemic insecurity - is a part of it as well.   This is simply out of our control.  We can't take a pill, we can't hire a trainer, we can't seem to WILL our way through it.  I think the telltale sign to me is all the blaming.  We'd be through this if it wasn't for Trump/NASCAR/the kids/whatever political party we hate/Adrenaline Mob/the Chinese...  but honestly, I don't think we would be.   

TL;DR:  It's not religion/god, it's a fascinating combination of hubris and insecurity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 16, 2020, 07:55:36 AM

I dont know, I think it's human instinct to fear death.  I'm not sure how much of a role religion plays into it although I'm sure it plays a role.  The media knows this and preys upon our own fears. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 16, 2020, 07:59:11 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 16, 2020, 07:55:36 AM

I dont know, I think it's human instinct to fear death.  I'm not sure how much of a role religion plays into it although I'm sure it plays a role.  The media knows this and preys upon our own fears.

Religion can easily be used as a tool to make people actually embrace death.
(https://static.timesofisrael.com/jewishndev/uploads/2015/02/Hamas11-640x400.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 16, 2020, 08:01:57 AM

Also, on a lighter note, this is apparently what the government in South Korea sends you if you need to quarantine because of Covid. It's almost like they understand the benefit of keeping people home.

(https://preview.redd.it/t6xrf80la7b51.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=fe5d1dbdb3a3a572121910ac0dae2d0cb583f346)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 16, 2020, 08:12:15 AM

Fake news.  There's no porn, alcohol or video games in that pile.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 16, 2020, 08:26:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 16, 2020, 08:12:15 AM

Fake news.  There's no porn, alcohol or video games in that pile.

Did you miss the duck next to the cleaning supplies?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 16, 2020, 08:43:30 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 16, 2020, 08:26:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 16, 2020, 08:12:15 AM

Fake news.  There's no porn, alcohol or video games in that pile.

Did you miss the duck next to the cleaning supplies?

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 16, 2020, 09:09:30 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 15, 2020, 06:15:07 PM

Most people have decided that there's no God

:lol  Yeah.  I wonder how God feels about that.  "He who sits in the heavens laughs."  (Ps 2:4)


On another subject, our state is going a bit nuts right now.  Our governor ordered another shutdown earlier in the week.  Most if not all schools are announcing distance learning only for this Fall.  It's pretty crazy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 16, 2020, 09:55:38 AM

Someone shared this, is this a viable solution?

https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2020/05/israel-announces-antibody-that-neutralizes-coronavirus-even-amongst-infected/ (https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2020/05/israel-announces-antibody-that-neutralizes-coronavirus-even-amongst-infected/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:58:23 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 16, 2020, 09:09:30 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 15, 2020, 06:15:07 PM

Most people have decided that there's no God

:lol  Yeah.  I wonder how God feels about that.  "He who sits in the heavens laughs."  (Ps 2:4)


On another subject, our state is going a bit nuts right now.  Our governor ordered another shutdown earlier in the week.  Most if not all schools are announcing distance learning only for this Fall.  It's pretty crazy.

Wait.... why would you need chairs in heaven?  How do chairs work in clouds or in a magical world?  Do legs and backs hurt in heaven so we need to sit?  And those in heaven laugh?  Are they laughing all at a joke of some kind, or do they do it all the time in a weird way like a crazy person?  Are they in chairs laughing at people who are not in heaven?  That would seem mean. 
Asking for a friend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 16, 2020, 10:47:50 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:58:23 AM

Wait.... why would you need chairs in heaven?

Gotta stay comfy while listening to Hendrix on harp on fiday nights.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 16, 2020, 10:50:49 AM

Quote from: lonestar on July 16, 2020, 09:55:38 AM

Someone shared this, is this a viable solution?

(https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2020/05/israel-announces-antibody-that-neutralizes-coronavirus-even-amongst-infected/)

Since the date on it is over 2 months ago, and there had not been global reporting on it, I doubt it is legit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 16, 2020, 11:20:10 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

That's a drag, Gregg. Best of luck, and maybe I'll give you a Scene update to sweeten the wait  :laugh:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 16, 2020, 11:31:02 AM

Damn Gregg.  You son in law have any idea where he got it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on July 16, 2020, 11:32:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 16, 2020, 08:12:15 AM

Fake news.  There's no porn, alcohol or video games in that pile.   

Distribution of pornography is illegal in South Korea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 16, 2020, 11:35:37 AM

...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on July 16, 2020, 11:20:10 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

That's a drag, Gregg. Best of luck, and maybe I'll give you a Scene update to sweeten the wait  :laugh:

What if I told you I might be COVID positive?  Another Scene?

<trying to lighten the mood>

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Indiscipline on July 16, 2020, 12:39:10 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM

Quote from: Indiscipline on July 16, 2020, 11:20:10 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

That's a drag, Gregg. Best of luck, and maybe I'll give you a Scene update to sweeten the wait  :laugh:

What if I told you I might be COVID positive?  Another Scene?

<trying to lighten the mood>

Another roulette.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 16, 2020, 01:58:31 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 16, 2020, 07:59:11 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 16, 2020, 07:55:36 AM

I dont know, I think it's human instinct to fear death.  I'm not sure how much of a role religion plays into it although I'm sure it plays a role.  The media knows this and preys upon our own fears.

Religion can easily be used as a tool to make people actually embrace death.
(https://static.timesofisrael.com/jewishndev/uploads/2015/02/Hamas11-640x400.jpg)

Well, I can't speak for all religions of course, but mine doesn't.  In fact it teaches the exact opposite.  That's a creepy as heck picture though.  I could see that coming out of an 80's horror film.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 16, 2020, 04:05:12 PM

72 NFL players have tested positive for Covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on July 16, 2020, 04:10:06 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 16, 2020, 04:05:12 PM

72 NFL players have tested positive for Covid.

That's not awful, as it's less than 3 per team.  I can't remember how many they bring to camp, but since they get down to 53 eventually, it has to be at least 70-80.  The numbers will certainly go up, especially since they won't be in a bubble like the NHL, but I fully expect the NFL's stance to remain moving forward no matter what.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 16, 2020, 04:43:58 PM

It's not awful now, but it has the potential to be once the season starts.  Unless, they make every player wear a mask the entire game.  I don't see that happening.  Those guys are out there gasping for air as it is.  I think the NFL is in for a rude awakening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 16, 2020, 04:49:06 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 16, 2020, 04:43:58 PM

It's not awful now, but it has the potential to be once the season starts.  Unless, they make every player wear a mask the entire game.  I don't see that happening.  Those guys are out there gasping for air as it is.  I think the NFL is in for a rude awakening.

As long as they keep getting tested and all are negative, then I don't see a need for masks.  However, not being a bubble creates a lot of opportunities for the virus to invade someone and for them to spread it before the positive tests come back.  With the other leagues attempting to start up, we will see if the NFL can happen.  My thoughts are probably not, but it seems everyone's full on in at least giving it a try. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 16, 2020, 06:38:20 PM

One of the most random food/drink shortages that this COVID pandemic has brought to us is Fresca. Can’t get it from Coke and apparently none of the big stores have it in stock and Coke doesn’t know when it’ll be back. This combined with the aluminum can shortage and companies focusing on their main drinks, it’ll be awhile. I never knew Fresca was so popular.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 16, 2020, 06:41:47 PM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 16, 2020, 06:38:20 PM

One of the most random food/drink shortages that this COVID pandemic has brought to us is Fresca. Can’t get it from Coke and apparently none of the big stores have it in stock and Coke doesn’t know when it’ll be back. This combined with the aluminum can shortage and companies focusing on their main drinks, it’ll be awhile. I never knew Fresca was so popular.

Coke has dramatically cut down its SKUs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 16, 2020, 06:52:50 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 16, 2020, 06:41:47 PM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 16, 2020, 06:38:20 PM

One of the most random food/drink shortages that this COVID pandemic has brought to us is Fresca. Can’t get it from Coke and apparently none of the big stores have it in stock and Coke doesn’t know when it’ll be back. This combined with the aluminum can shortage and companies focusing on their main drinks, it’ll be awhile. I never knew Fresca was so popular.

Coke has dramatically cut down its SKUs.

The coke is cut?!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 16, 2020, 07:31:48 PM

Fresca is sweat from tidy whities with a hint of lemon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 16, 2020, 07:35:15 PM

That's not even where it comes from.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 16, 2020, 07:36:45 PM

I didn't know you worked for Warren Buffett?!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 16, 2020, 07:38:03 PM

I didn't know you worked for Old Country Buffet?!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 16, 2020, 07:44:26 PM

If so I would be dead now.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 16, 2020, 07:46:19 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 16, 2020, 08:01:55 PM

What's wrong with people?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/school-hearing-dismissed-after-angry-parents-pack-room-without-masks/ar-BB16PALa?li=BBnb7Kz

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

How is this different than a higher tech upc scan code?  I’m just missing what the objection to this is.  And an objection strong enough to risk the lives of yourself and family?  I’m confused.  Is there some nefarious purpose I missed?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:35:13 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

How is this different than a higher tech upc scan code?  I’m just missing what the objection to this is.  And an objection strong enough to risk the lives of yourself and family?  I’m confused.  Is there some nefarious purpose I missed?

Then stick with the scan code. I get a bit suspicious When the US military is supplying rfid anything that the American public HAS to use.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:38:37 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:35:13 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

How is this different than a higher tech upc scan code?  I’m just missing what the objection to this is.  And an objection strong enough to risk the lives of yourself and family?  I’m confused.  Is there some nefarious purpose I missed?

Then stick with the scan code. I get a bit suspicious When the US military is supplying rfid anything that the American public HAS to use.

Even assuming they did use it to track you, That’s something you would let your family die for?  I’m guessing that was just hyperbole, as I think you are like me, and value your kids lives above literally anything.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:44:09 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:38:37 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:35:13 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

How is this different than a higher tech upc scan code?  I’m just missing what the objection to this is.  And an objection strong enough to risk the lives of yourself and family?  I’m confused.  Is there some nefarious purpose I missed?

Then stick with the scan code. I get a bit suspicious When the US military is supplying rfid anything that the American public HAS to use.

Even assuming they did use it to track you, That’s something you would let your family die for?  I’m guessing that was just hyperbole, as I think you are like me, and value your kids lives above literally anything.

I find it completely unnecessary to introduced rfid anything into a vaccine. That raises my suspicion. That’s all. If this thing continues to spiral out of control then sure, I’ll re-evaluate.....but if this were available now I wouldn’t get it. I’d stick to our cautious approach like we have been.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 10:01:09 PM

Wow, Karma worked FAST on Chuck Woolery.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 16, 2020, 10:38:14 PM

But he still has good ratings to fall back on

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 17, 2020, 04:38:44 AM

@ Gary... what’s with the paranoia wrt RFID?  it’s a technology that’s been used in many industries for a couple decades - including the medical field AND with syringes. Have you had a blood transfusion?  RFID is used in the bags. Any type of IV treatment - RFID.

Just curious where your issue is?  The benefits of RFID in healthcare (https://www.himss.org/resources/benefits-and-barriers-rfid-technology-healthcare) are well researched and validated to far outweigh any risks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 17, 2020, 04:56:47 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:44:09 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:38:37 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:35:13 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

How is this different than a higher tech upc scan code?  I’m just missing what the objection to this is.  And an objection strong enough to risk the lives of yourself and family?  I’m confused.  Is there some nefarious purpose I missed?

Then stick with the scan code. I get a bit suspicious When the US military is supplying rfid anything that the American public HAS to use.

Even assuming they did use it to track you, That’s something you would let your family die for?  I’m guessing that was just hyperbole, as I think you are like me, and value your kids lives above literally anything.

I find it completely unnecessary to introduced rfid anything into a vaccine. That raises my suspicion. That’s all. If this thing continues to spiral out of control then sure, I’ll re-evaluate.....but if this were available now I wouldn’t get it. I’d stick to our cautious approach like we have been.

RFID chips are found throughout the medical field, food processing, and the shipping and routing of goods. They are used in pretty much every large scale production line to build everything from household appliances to cars. They help automatically keep track of inventory in drug manufacturing facilities and act as an added layer of security when it comes to what people are allowed in which areas of buildings (built into name tags). Heck, I have a 4 IDs in my wallet that have RFID chips in them. RFID and tracking is one of the best pieces of technology to really manifest over the last two decades or so. It's revolutionized and increased efficiency in dozens of industries. 

I could understand opposition to it if we were literally ingesting the tags, or getting them implanted under our skin, or requiring firearms to need them for safety, but why are you so opposed to the technology itself, especially in this application? (genuinely curious)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 17, 2020, 05:04:17 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 10:01:09 PM

Wow, Karma worked FAST on Chuck Woolery.

He’ll be back in 2 and 2.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 17, 2020, 05:30:19 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 16, 2020, 04:49:06 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 16, 2020, 04:43:58 PM

It's not awful now, but it has the potential to be once the season starts.  Unless, they make every player wear a mask the entire game.  I don't see that happening.  Those guys are out there gasping for air as it is.  I think the NFL is in for a rude awakening.

As long as they keep getting tested and all are negative, then I don't see a need for masks.  However, not being a bubble creates a lot of opportunities for the virus to invade someone and for them to spread it before the positive tests come back.  With the other leagues attempting to start up, we will see if the NFL can happen.  My thoughts are probably not, but it seems everyone's full on in at least giving it a try. 

I thought I saw that they're working on face shields to fit in helmets that will keep things more contained than normal helmets do. We'll see how things go. There will certainly be many players testing positive.

I know MLB is much less contact than the NFL, but pretty much every MLB team has had a few players test positive and there are notlarge outbreaks yet, so that's promising.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on July 17, 2020, 05:50:16 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

Update:

So, I got word last night that as part of standard procedure for positive results, my son's boss was retested from the same sample and a new sample. Both have come back negative. Case closed, right? No. My son is still scheduled to be tested on Monday and my partners don't want me around the office until he's tested. SMH. People are funny, but whatever makes folks comfortable I suppose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 17, 2020, 05:58:04 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 17, 2020, 05:50:16 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

Update:

So, I got word last night that as part of standard procedure for positive results, my son's boss was retested from the same sample and a new sample. Both have come back negative. Case closed, right? No. My son is still scheduled to be tested on Monday and my partners don't want me around the office until he's tested. SMH. People are funny, but whatever makes folks comfortable I suppose.

Yeah, that seems a bit over the top, but best to be safe I guess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 17, 2020, 06:34:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 17, 2020, 05:58:04 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 17, 2020, 05:50:16 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

Update:

So, I got word last night that as part of standard procedure for positive results, my son's boss was retested from the same sample and a new sample. Both have come back negative. Case closed, right? No. My son is still scheduled to be tested on Monday and my partners don't want me around the office until he's tested. SMH. People are funny, but whatever makes folks comfortable I suppose.

Yeah, that seems a bit over the top, but best to be safe I guess.

I disagree.  Contact tracing, and knowing where the virus ISN'T spreading is probably more important to understanding and containing the outbreak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 06:44:50 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 04:56:47 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:44:09 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:38:37 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:35:13 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

How is this different than a higher tech upc scan code?  I’m just missing what the objection to this is.  And an objection strong enough to risk the lives of yourself and family?  I’m confused.  Is there some nefarious purpose I missed?

Then stick with the scan code. I get a bit suspicious When the US military is supplying rfid anything that the American public HAS to use.

Even assuming they did use it to track you, That’s something you would let your family die for?  I’m guessing that was just hyperbole, as I think you are like me, and value your kids lives above literally anything.

I find it completely unnecessary to introduced rfid anything into a vaccine. That raises my suspicion. That’s all. If this thing continues to spiral out of control then sure, I’ll re-evaluate.....but if this were available now I wouldn’t get it. I’d stick to our cautious approach like we have been.

RFID chips are found throughout the medical field, food processing, and the shipping and routing of goods. They are used in pretty much every large scale production line to build everything from household appliances to cars. They help automatically keep track of inventory in drug manufacturing facilities and act as an added layer of security when it comes to what people are allowed in which areas of buildings (built into name tags). Heck, I have a 4 IDs in my wallet that have RFID chips in them. RFID and tracking is one of the best pieces of technology to really manifest over the last two decades or so. It's revolutionized and increased efficiency in dozens of industries. 

I could understand opposition to it if we were literally ingesting the tags, or getting them implanted under our skin, or requiring firearms to need them for safety, but why are you so opposed to the technology itself, especially in this application? (genuinely curious)

I think that's where Gmillerdrake's going with this.  And I'm with him on this worry.  I totally understand the benefits of RFID when keeping track of inventory, it works really well.  But I don't like to be told that I HAVE to have it.  I don't like having one on my state id or debit card (am I inventory?).  A very large negative to the right to privacy.  They should not exist on anything people normally carry around with them, or have in their homes.  And if it's on a needle that's going into my body, how much further is the jump to it being in the vaccine itself?  Not a very big one.  It's crap like this that causes distrust in modern institutions and conspiracy theorys.  I also won't be getting a vaccine, nor my family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 06:54:00 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5mLjKI968g

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 17, 2020, 06:55:09 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 06:44:50 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 04:56:47 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:44:09 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:38:37 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:35:13 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 16, 2020, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM

Hope, nope and nope. Not an anti vaccine person at all but you can count me out. I know this says the rfid chip is on the outside of the syringe but doesn’t matter to me. I guess the world will be short (5) gmillerdrake’s in a year when we die from Covid cuz ain’t happening.

Yes I read the article. No I do not believe the ‘reason’ for the need of the rfid.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-syringes-rfid-microchips/507-c78af052-979c-439b-a37a-3bf036113130

How is this different than a higher tech upc scan code?  I’m just missing what the objection to this is.  And an objection strong enough to risk the lives of yourself and family?  I’m confused.  Is there some nefarious purpose I missed?

Then stick with the scan code. I get a bit suspicious When the US military is supplying rfid anything that the American public HAS to use.

Even assuming they did use it to track you, That’s something you would let your family die for?  I’m guessing that was just hyperbole, as I think you are like me, and value your kids lives above literally anything.

I find it completely unnecessary to introduced rfid anything into a vaccine. That raises my suspicion. That’s all. If this thing continues to spiral out of control then sure, I’ll re-evaluate.....but if this were available now I wouldn’t get it. I’d stick to our cautious approach like we have been.

RFID chips are found throughout the medical field, food processing, and the shipping and routing of goods. They are used in pretty much every large scale production line to build everything from household appliances to cars. They help automatically keep track of inventory in drug manufacturing facilities and act as an added layer of security when it comes to what people are allowed in which areas of buildings (built into name tags). Heck, I have a 4 IDs in my wallet that have RFID chips in them. RFID and tracking is one of the best pieces of technology to really manifest over the last two decades or so. It's revolutionized and increased efficiency in dozens of industries. 

I could understand opposition to it if we were literally ingesting the tags, or getting them implanted under our skin, or requiring firearms to need them for safety, but why are you so opposed to the technology itself, especially in this application? (genuinely curious)

I think that's where Gmillerdrake's going with this.  And I'm with him on this worry.  I totally understand the benefits of RFID when keeping track of inventory, it works really well.  But I don't like to be told that I HAVE to have it.  I don't like having one on my state id or debit card (am I inventory?).  A very large negative to the right to privacy.  They should not exist on anything people normally carry around with them, or have in their homes. And if it's on a needle that's going into my body, how much further is the jump to it being in the vaccine itself? Not a very big one.  It's crap like this that causes distrust in modern institutions and conspiracy theorys.  I also won't be getting a vaccine, nor my family.

That's a very, very large jump. They're not even on the same continent.   

That's kind of like asking "Walmart tracked this pallet of TV dinners with an RFID chip. How long until they put them in the TV dinners themselves?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 17, 2020, 06:57:57 AM

Right. I have no issue if they record the dose they give to me. I think it's the word "microchip" that is a bit jarring.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 17, 2020, 07:07:39 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 17, 2020, 06:34:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 17, 2020, 05:58:04 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 17, 2020, 05:50:16 AM

Quote from: Podaar on July 16, 2020, 10:51:18 AM

Got word from my son-in-law that his boss tested positive for covid-19...and we spent a couple of hours with him (my s-i-l) last week for his birthday. We social distanced, and did not hug, but I'm now having to stay at home until he gets his test results back tomorrow or Monday. Depending on the results, we (Mrs. P and I) may need to get tested again. If so, it will be my third.

Update:

So, I got word last night that as part of standard procedure for positive results, my son's boss was retested from the same sample and a new sample. Both have come back negative. Case closed, right? No. My son is still scheduled to be tested on Monday and my partners don't want me around the office until he's tested. SMH. People are funny, but whatever makes folks comfortable I suppose.

Yeah, that seems a bit over the top, but best to be safe I guess.

I disagree.  Contact tracing, and knowing where the virus ISN'T spreading is probably more important to understanding and containing the outbreak.

Having to stay home because you were in contact with a person who was in contact with a person who tested positive and then was corrected, through multiple tests, to negative, is over the top. Trying to track the spread is not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 17, 2020, 07:10:40 AM

Chad and Brian......I am familiar with the benefit of RFID. Half the equipment I purchase at my job is tracked. Totally understand the logistical aspect. With that being said.....like Eric mentioned, our yearly flu shots have the scan code. Does the exact same thing. I 'get' why you want/need the info. What I don't get is why this vaccine needs RFID? All I'm saying is that is raises my suspicion. Sure, it's a little conspiratorial but it's the US government Military supplying these things.

And I agree with Northern Lion......sure it seems like a large jump now but.....is it really such a large jump to imagine? When you think about it it's really not. I don't think they're microchipping people with 'this' vaccine but I absolutely believe the day will come when it'll be expected for us to 'accept' some form of tracking device 'in' our bodies to get XXXXX service/vaccine etc etc.

So yeah....I'm aware of the audience in DTF and know my stance or whatever is not going to be the norm....but like I told Eric earlier.....unless this virus just becomes overly rampant and 3/4 of the population is infected 'we' won't be getting this vaccine. Call me what you will I'm good with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 07:13:10 AM

If you're concerned about the government tracking you, have you gotten rid of your cell phone?

The idea that the government would need to implant microchips in people in order to track them is ridiculous. They could track everyone now if they wanted to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 17, 2020, 07:23:43 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 17, 2020, 07:10:40 AM

Chad and Brian......I am familiar with the benefit of RFID. Half the equipment I purchase at my job is tracked. Totally understand the logistical aspect. With that being said.....like Eric mentioned, our yearly flu shots have the scan code. Does the exact same thing. I 'get' why you want/need the info. What I don't get is why this vaccine needs RFID? All I'm saying is that is raises my suspicion. Sure, it's a little conspiratorial but it's the US government Military supplying these things.

It's got nothing to do with the vaccine though. The RFID tags are on the syringes because of the way the vaccine is being packaged and distributed. We're going to need to make something like 10M vaccines a day once one is created, and you can't do that at that scale with factory workers filling syringes manually. You need robust, high speed, round the clock manufacturing via machines, and the only way to do that is with RFID tags and tight inventory control. The contents of the syringe are 100% irrelevant to the need for the tags.

Quote

And I agree with Northern Lion......sure it seems like a large jump now but.....is it really such a large jump to imagine? When you think about it it's really not. I don't think they're microchipping people with 'this' vaccine but I absolutely believe the day will come when it'll be expected for us to 'accept' some form of tracking device 'in' our bodies to get XXXXX service/vaccine etc etc.

Probably. I'm sure at one time the idea of carrying around an ID card that says your name, DOB, address, and blood type that was required to get into certain places was considered just a terrifying a jump to many. I guess it all comes down to what you consider "tracking". If tracking means the government is noting every building you enter and every street lamp you pass, yeah, obviously that's shit. But if tracking means a chip in me that's monitoring my vitals at all times and can alert me as soon as a cancer cell or something is detected, I think I'm fine with that (assuming it's voluntary). I'd argue that your phone is already giving the government far more information about your daily life than any chip they could put in you. I mean, realistically, between your bank account activity and your cellphone, the government could probably accurately piece together 95%+ of your day-to-day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 17, 2020, 07:43:39 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 07:13:10 AM

If you're concerned about the government tracking you, have you gotten rid of your cell phone?

The idea that the government would need to implant microchips in people in order to track them is ridiculous. They could track everyone now if they wanted to.

Yeah all of this, seriously

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 17, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I hate looking up something on my computer and then the next time I get on, I'm inundated with ads for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:59:25 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I hate looking up something on my computer and then the next time I get on, I'm inundated with ads for it.

You know what I hate? Going into a coworkers office, noting that I liked something on their desk without even knowing what it's called, and then being inundated with ads for that thing. HOW?!?!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 17, 2020, 08:00:58 AM

Yeah, that's weird.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 17, 2020, 08:02:55 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

same

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 17, 2020, 08:04:27 AM

We need RFID chips in shopping carts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 17, 2020, 08:11:22 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:59:25 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I hate looking up something on my computer and then the next time I get on, I'm inundated with ads for it.

You know what I hate? Going into a coworkers office, noting that I liked something on their desk without even knowing what it's called, and then being inundated with ads for that thing. HOW?!?!

What was it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on July 17, 2020, 08:13:24 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:59:25 AM

You know what I hate? Going into a coworkers office, noting that I liked something on their desk without even knowing what it's called, and then being inundated with ads for that thing. HOW?!?!

Don't panic! but I think someone's spying on you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 17, 2020, 08:13:31 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 16, 2020, 08:01:55 PM

What's wrong with people?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/school-hearing-dismissed-after-angry-parents-pack-room-without-masks/ar-BB16PALa?li=BBnb7Kz

C'mon Tim, don't you know?  They tested positive for stupid and there's no cure.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 08:14:33 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I'm equally worried about both.  I don't want either tracking me.  And I get the cell phone argument, but there's also a lot you can do to mitigate that.

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 17, 2020, 08:04:27 AM

We need RFID chips in shopping carts.

 :lol, oh boy, where's TAC?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 17, 2020, 08:18:17 AM

I bring my own shopping cart! ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 17, 2020, 08:19:03 AM

I don't see why you think that's funny.


 :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 17, 2020, 08:22:36 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:59:25 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I hate looking up something on my computer and then the next time I get on, I'm inundated with ads for it.

You know what I hate? Going into a coworkers office, noting that I liked something on their desk without even knowing what it's called, and then being inundated with ads for that thing. HOW?!?!

It's called artificial intelligence. Your phone is listening to you just like other smart devices. What I find amazing is that I can think of something and the next thing you know I have ads popping up for that one thing that I was THINKING. It's like they're reading your mind!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:40:19 AM

Being that I work in online advertising... this is all legit.  AI and machine learning, it all knows what you are interested in and just about everything about you already.  Even 5 people in the same house, it knows who is who under that IP address. 

and boom:

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I hate looking up something on my computer and then the next time I get on, I'm inundated with ads for it.

that's legit what happens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 08:42:21 AM

Seriously guys, get an ad blocker.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 17, 2020, 08:42:44 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:40:19 AM

Being that I work in online advertising... this is all legit.  AI and machine learning, it all knows what you are interested in and just about everything about you already.  Even 5 people in the same house, it knows who is who under that IP address. 

and boom:

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I hate looking up something on my computer and then the next time I get on, I'm inundated with ads for it.

that's legit what happens.

How much of that happens with open microphones that aren't things like Google Home and Alexa? Are we already at a point where companies are hearing (via the phone in someone's pocket) people say in casual conversation "hey, I like your calendar" and then begin getting ads for calendars? I completely understand how a google search turns into ads on every website you visit, but I don't think we're at the point of mining of open conversations yet.

What drives me nuts is when I decide I want something, research it for 30 minutes and then buy it, and then get ads for the next two weeks for the thing I've already purchased. I got a new sprinkler for my lawn three weeks ago and I'm still getting ads for sprinklers. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:47:51 AM

My company doesn't do any of the data collecting, they just match it with ads so I don't know, but my guess is it listens to everything because of the many examples of people experiencing that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 17, 2020, 08:49:14 AM

^^ Wouldn't that be in violation of recording laws (to Chino)? I know each state has different laws relating to people recording others but I'm not sure if that would apply to this situation, although I wish it would. I still remember once I had everything closed out of my phone... I went to the shoe store in the mall, bought a new pair of shoes, paid cash... the next day, at home, in another town, on my laptop, Facebook was showing me ads for the exact same pair of shoes I had just bought. Still weirded out by that and I fucking hate it. The modern age of ads and trying to market every little thing down to your smallest interests because the technology has essentially been watching you... I hate every single thing about it.

And that's why although I don't blame you, Marc, I hate your job.  :lol All in good spirit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 17, 2020, 08:50:55 AM

My wife and I have been talking about something and then one of us searches Google for more info on our phone, only to have autocomplete fill in the exact thing we were just talking about. It's creepy as hell.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 17, 2020, 08:51:04 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 07:13:10 AM

If you're concerned about the government tracking you, have you gotten rid of your cell phone?

The idea that the government would need to implant microchips in people in order to track them is ridiculous. They could track everyone now if they wanted to.

I totally agree with this - any single person that is paranoid of being tracked via a vaccine already has a smartphone in their pocket with 700 apps that have requested some sort of permission from them to install.  All of those permissions allow a small piece of their privacy to be transmitted through the app.  Their location, their browsing history, audio through their phone's microphone, their pictures. 

People will glady give up their privacy for a smart phone and not think twice about transmitting their usage and location through an app....but to receive a shot that has a tracking code on the syringe so information can be transmitted is bad?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 17, 2020, 08:52:17 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 08:42:44 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:40:19 AM

Being that I work in online advertising... this is all legit.  AI and machine learning, it all knows what you are interested in and just about everything about you already.  Even 5 people in the same house, it knows who is who under that IP address. 

and boom:

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 17, 2020, 07:56:37 AM

I'm not worried about our government tracking us. I'm worried about corporations tracking us, but people generally seem less concerned about that one.

I hate looking up something on my computer and then the next time I get on, I'm inundated with ads for it.

that's legit what happens.

How much of that happens with open microphones that aren't things like Google Home and Alexa? Are we already at a point where companies are hearing (via the phone in someone's pocket) people say in casual conversation "hey, I like your calendar" and then begin getting ads for calendars? I completely understand how a google search turns into ads on every website you visit, but I don't think we're at the point of mining of open conversations yet.

What drives me nuts is when I decide I want something, research it for 30 minutes and then buy it, and then get ads for the next two weeks for the thing I've already purchased.

YES!! I especially hate it when I buy an item that I am not likely to buy again in the near future like a drill I bought recently. Do they think I am going to buy a drill every week?  >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 17, 2020, 08:53:30 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 17, 2020, 08:51:04 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 07:13:10 AM

If you're concerned about the government tracking you, have you gotten rid of your cell phone?

The idea that the government would need to implant microchips in people in order to track them is ridiculous. They could track everyone now if they wanted to.

I totally agree with this - any single person that is paranoid of being tracked via a vaccine already has a smartphone in their pocket with 700 apps that have requested some sort of permission from them to install.  All of those permissions allow a small piece of their privacy to be transmitted through the app.  Their location, their browsing history, audio through their phone's microphone, their pictures. 

People will glady give up their privacy for a smart phone and not think twice about transmitting their usage and location through an app....but to receive a shot that has a tracking code on the syringe so information can be transmitted is bad?

For me, the huge difference is that I'm voluntarily giving the app developers that information and I can stop it at any time I want to by uninstalling the app, not using my phone, or not carrying it with me. If the government were to forcibly make me give them same info, it would be a wildly different thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:57:22 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 17, 2020, 08:49:14 AM

^^ Wouldn't that be in violation of recording laws? I know each state has different laws relating to people recording others but I'm not sure if that would apply to this situation, although I wish it would. I still remember once I had everything closed out of my phone... I went to the shoe store in the mall, bought a new pair of shoes, paid cash... the next day, at home, in another town, on my laptop, Facebook was showing me ads for the exact same pair of shoes I had just bought. Still weirded out by that and I fucking hate it. The modern age of ads and trying to market every little thing down to your smallest interests because the technology has essentially been watching you... I hate every single thing about it.

And that's why although I don't blame you, Marc, I hate your job.  :lol All in good spirit.

I don't know the laws.  But I'm sure you sign away some privacy rights with TOS for lots of things you use.  But I really don't know, that's not my business, I just build the data center not any of the tech that runs on it.  Also, making a purchase gives another data point.  I have no idea if they use your purchases for advertisements, but just throwing the idea that there's more than one way to find something out about you besides something you say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 17, 2020, 09:00:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:47:51 AM

My company doesn't do any of the data collecting, they just match it with ads so I don't know, but my guess is it listens to everything because of the many examples of people experiencing that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think as many people experience this as they think. They believe they are, but they're not. They interpret themselves as "thinking" about something and getting ads, but in reality they've been broadcasting their interests for a long time. I might be "thinking" about BBQ sauce all afternoon, but haven't searched for BBQ sauce online. If I'm scrolling through Instagram and their algorithms note that I spend 18% more time looking at BBQ related pictures over the average of anything else, it could easily deduce that I got BBQ sauce in some capacity on my mind. I didn't have to search for anything specific, or tell anyone verbally about my interest in BBQ. The simple act of slowing down the rate at which I scroll through my feed when BBQ is present is more than enough to identify what's on my mind.

My mom is super guilty of this. "I was thinking about how I needed new yarn the other day and immediately started seeing ads for it. I think my phone was listening when I told your father". Well, maybe. But also consider that she buys hundreds of dollars worth of yarn per year, both in store and on Amazon. The internet knows she likes to knit, as does Michael's. It's no secret. Also, it's entirely possible she's been seeing ads for knitting stuff all the time and just tunes them out. They only reason she noticed them this most recent time was because she was just thinking about it and actually needs what's being advertised to her.


Also, people think of hundreds of things a day. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 09:04:45 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 09:00:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:47:51 AM

My company doesn't do any of the data collecting, they just match it with ads so I don't know, but my guess is it listens to everything because of the many examples of people experiencing that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think as many people experience this as they think. They believe they are, but they're not. They interpret themselves as "thinking" about something and getting ads, but in reality they've been broadcasting their interests for a long time. I might be "thinking" about BBQ sauce all afternoon, but haven't searched for BBQ sauce online. If I'm scrolling through Instagram and their algorithms note that I spend 18% more time looking at BBQ related pictures over the average of anything else, it could easily deduce that I got BBQ sauce in some capacity on my mind. I didn't have to search for anything specific, or tell anyone verbally about my interest in BBQ. The simple act of slowing down the rate at which I scroll through my feed when BBQ is present is more than enough to identify what's on my mind.

My mom is super guilty of this. "I was thinking about how I needed new yarn the other day and immediately started seeing ads for it. I think my phone was listening when I told your father". Well, maybe. But also consider that she buys hundreds of dollars worth of yarn per year, both in store and on Amazon. The internet knows she likes to knit, as does Michael's. It's no secret. Also, it's entirely possible she's been seeing ads for knitting stuff all the time and just tunes them out. They only reason she noticed them this most recent time was because she was just thinking about it and actually needs what's being advertised to her.


Also, people think of hundreds of things a day. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.

Yea, I alluded to that in my last post, but I don't know really.  I can't say for sure because I really wouldn't be surprised if they do listen to everything and have a database on things you say often. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on July 17, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 08:42:21 AM

Seriously guys, get an ad blocker.

Exactly. I install uBlock Origin on every browser on every machine in my house. I recently upgraded and rebuilt my main rig and the first time I launched my browser I was like "what the heck?!?!?!?!". Forgot I needed to install my ad blocker.

On the machine I am on now uBlock says it has blocked 1.324 million trackers since I installed it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 17, 2020, 10:29:43 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 08:18:17 AM

I bring my own shopping cart! ;D

So you DO bring your cart back to where it’s supposed to be!  Ah ha!  Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 17, 2020, 10:56:05 AM

I'll have you know that if I use a handbasket, and I get to the register and the stack of handbaskets are all jumbled, I'll usually restack them. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 17, 2020, 11:17:42 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 17, 2020, 10:56:05 AM

I'll have you know that if I use a handbasket, and I get to the register and the stack of handbaskets are all jumbled, I'll usually restack them. :lol

Okay now you definitely have no excuse for not putting your cart back, you bastard.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 17, 2020, 11:45:10 AM

 :lol :rollin :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 12:00:44 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 17, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 08:42:21 AM

Seriously guys, get an ad blocker.

Exactly. I install uBlock Origin on every browser on every machine in my house. I recently upgraded and rebuilt my main rig and the first time I launched my browser I was like "what the heck?!?!?!?!". Forgot I needed to install my ad blocker.

On the machine I am on now uBlock says it has blocked 1.324 million trackers since I installed it.

+1.  I'm kind of a privacy nut and one of the best ways to be more private online is with a proper add blocker and Ublock Origin is one of the best.  Also, on your phone switch to the Duckduckgo browser app instead of Chrome.  And then get rid of all unnecessary permissions from apps.  Then go into your "Google" app and scoop it out with a shovel.  Thats just a good start but you can do a lot more.

And disable Google assistant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 17, 2020, 12:22:15 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 17, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 08:42:21 AM

Seriously guys, get an ad blocker.

Exactly. I install uBlock Origin on every browser on every machine in my house. I recently upgraded and rebuilt my main rig and the first time I launched my browser I was like "what the heck?!?!?!?!". Forgot I needed to install my ad blocker.

On the machine I am on now uBlock says it has blocked 1.324 million trackers since I installed it.

Holy shit. I just installed this 12 minutes ago and 464 ads. Does this also eliminate the opening ads on Youtube as well?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 12:37:26 PM

Yeah. As far as I'm concerned, that's its primary purpose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 12:39:38 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 12:22:15 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 17, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 08:42:21 AM

Seriously guys, get an ad blocker.

Exactly. I install uBlock Origin on every browser on every machine in my house. I recently upgraded and rebuilt my main rig and the first time I launched my browser I was like "what the heck?!?!?!?!". Forgot I needed to install my ad blocker.

On the machine I am on now uBlock says it has blocked 1.324 million trackers since I installed it.

Holy shit. I just installed this 12 minutes ago and 464 ads. Does this also eliminate the opening ads on Youtube as well?

You mean pop ups?  Yes, and there should be a setting for that as well in your browser.  Ublock is amazing.  And add Duckduckgo or StartPage as your default search engine, and you'll get a double wammy of privacy awesomeness.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on July 17, 2020, 12:41:47 PM

Ah nothing like tech talk in a coronavirus thread. I can't remember the last time I've used a browser without any kind of adblocking plugin. I use the usual suspects of adblock and adblock plus, ghostery, ublock origin, adguard. I go back and forth with noscript since it involves quite a bit of configuration and uses to set it correctly by which at some point you become frustrated to still configuring rather than just browsing.

Also be aware that some websites detect your ad blocking and privacy tracing blockers and won't display the pages until you turn the blockers off. Some will kindly ask you to disable but still allow you to view the webpage. YMMV.

I use enhancer for Youtube that gives additional controls on layout etc..

I've been using duckduckgo for years now and rarely ever go to google to search anything. I do use google products (gmail & maps) but am really trying not to be dependent on just one company for a one size fits all browsing experience.


I've been using Firefox for ages as well, when they switched to the new build engine which made things vastly faster. I do like the new Edge browser that uses the chromium engine, it works just as fast the other browsers and allows a ton of configuration these days, infact that's what I've been using the past few months. I might go back to Firefox though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 17, 2020, 12:44:04 PM

I use a program called “I just ignore the ads”.
Works pretty well for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 17, 2020, 12:47:33 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 09:00:43 AM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think as many people experience this as they think. They believe they are, but they're not. They interpret themselves as "thinking" about something and getting ads, but in reality they've been broadcasting their interests for a long time.

See, I would think so too, except the exact same thing happened to me a few years ago. I was talking about getting married within the earshot of my phone and computer and a few days later I got wedding dress advertisements. I wasn't telling it to anyone except my family, in the same room, just talking to them, and I wasn't browsing for anything wedding-related because we were just going to go to the city hall. It was a very casual "so I'm going to be doing this sometime this year" kind of thing. And yet there they were.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on July 17, 2020, 12:51:28 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 12:39:38 PM

 And add Duckduckgo or StartPage as your default search engine, and you'll get a double wammy of privacy awesomeness.

Nice! I use it too and love it. Wasn't sure if it was that widely used but I used to have Awesome Tab back in my chrome days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 17, 2020, 01:18:43 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 17, 2020, 12:47:33 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 09:00:43 AM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think as many people experience this as they think. They believe they are, but they're not. They interpret themselves as "thinking" about something and getting ads, but in reality they've been broadcasting their interests for a long time.

See, I would think so too, except the exact same thing happened to me a few years ago. I was talking about getting married within the earshot of my phone and computer and a few days later I got wedding dress advertisements. I wasn't telling it to anyone except my family, in the same room, just talking to them, and I wasn't browsing for anything wedding-related because we were just going to go to the city hall. It was a very casual "so I'm going to be doing this sometime this year" kind of thing. And yet there they were.

Well, think of all the not-so relevant commercials you get that you just glance over and forget. Statistically there will be such incidents by default.

Another possibility is that people you interact with did search for it and algorithms link you. Or a profile based on your assumed age/gender and/or related interests.

While I know all kind of algorithms are monitoring everyone, there are still a hell of a lot of caveats to them. The fact that I got months of laptop commercials while browsing on my brand new laptop (and the same for my phone) or get commercials for a degree I already obtained shows me the process is faulty. I'd say 20% of online commercials I get are relevant to me, at best. And those are the ones that are usually the result of something I literally just googled or from the online shop I just clicked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 02:41:49 PM

Quote from: faizoff on July 17, 2020, 12:51:28 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 12:39:38 PM

 And add Duckduckgo or StartPage as your default search engine, and you'll get a double wammy of privacy awesomeness.

Nice! I use it too and love it. Wasn't sure if it was that widely used but I used to have Awesome Tab back in my chrome days.

Yeah, I've been a fan of StartPage for years, too bad it hasn't gotten as much traction as Duckduckgo.  But both are great.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 17, 2020, 07:37:14 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 16, 2020, 06:41:47 PM

Coke has dramatically cut down its SKUs.

It’s nice to know that it’s not just here in Minnesota that they are cutting SKUs. It’s been interesting seeing what disappears. Couldn’t get ramen back in stock until June, now canning supplies are gone. Yeast still continues to be hit and miss, having trouble getting certain pastas from Italy, meat substitutes have been hard to get. It’s very interesting. For yeast, we’re looking at building up stock for the holidays with what we get right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 17, 2020, 09:05:06 PM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 17, 2020, 07:37:14 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 16, 2020, 06:41:47 PM

Coke has dramatically cut down its SKUs.

It’s nice to know that it’s not just here in Minnesota that they are cutting SKUs. It’s been interesting seeing what disappears. Couldn’t get ramen back in stock until June, now canning supplies are gone. Yeast still continues to be hit and miss, having trouble getting certain pastas from Italy, meat substitutes have been hard to get. It’s very interesting. For yeast, we’re looking at building up stock for the holidays with what we get right now.

yeah, I know what you mean. And California is locked down again.  I expect we'll see more food shortages soon. And if there ends up being a second wave in the fall, things could go back to the way they were a few months ago. We've been stocking up as well just in case. We figure if we have a 3 month supply of all the essentials saved up then we should be good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 17, 2020, 09:51:55 PM

My store was out of ramen for a good few weeks, much to the disappointment of my daughter (and myself). It was really the only grocery item we buy regularly that my store was always out of. Tortillas were often in short supply. Same with rice. And I noticed there was always a dearth of flour. Everyone stuck at home took up baking, I guess.

I've noticed some stores posting signs saying there is a national coin shortage, and to have exact change if paying by cash.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2020, 10:24:06 PM

Ramen was out of stock for ages here. Fortunately, I had stocked up several weeks before people started to panic buy, mostly out of coincidence.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 18, 2020, 09:48:50 AM

A woman who became a good friend during my time volunteering and being a Site Coordinator for Meals On Wheels years ago is now hospitalized.  Considering she worked in the East Wing during Eisenhower's last two years in the White House, her outlooks are not promising.  She was still volunteering once a week.

And one of my twin nieces tested positive yesterday, and has been sick for a couple of days. Her Mom drove down from Maryland to Nashville late last night.  Our niece is 25, has a Master's, and also has Lupus and 'something' that caused her hair to drastically thin out years ago.  Smart, educated......and yet she flew down to Florida two weeks ago with her 'this guy is a bit controlling and somewhat of a loser' boyfriend, as well as attending a comedy show in Nashville.  No one wore masks at that club, plenty of pix with her and friends hugging.   :facepalm:    :censored her!  Of all people, she should have known better. 

Even with the best outcome, this is going to affect her for months/years to come.

We visited with her last October, but I could not go to our family get together at her parents last Christmas,  because I had that weird two week all I could do was sleep preCovid flu.

frick, frick, frick

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 18, 2020, 04:56:12 PM

That is sad DragonAttack.  I hope she recovers OK.

I don't know if it's been discussed on here or not, but there was a story in the news about a "Covid-19" party that happened and a young man in his 30's? ended up contracting it and died in the hospital.  From what I remember from the article, his last words to the doctor were "I think I made a big mistake".  Then he died.

I don't believe tempting fate is a good idea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 18, 2020, 05:10:03 PM

^
Well, I hope the hosts paid him .........

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 18, 2020, 05:30:29 PM

Damn Joe, that is all bad. Hope they recover!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 18, 2020, 07:28:06 PM

If my comment would have been visible and audible, it would have started with a sigh, then said in a low tone whilst shaking my head. 

I don't wish for them to get 'it', I just wish they would get 'it'...ie, the seriousness of it all.  I can see where some buckle under peer pressure to show up or get dragged to things like that, just so they won't be considered as a wuss.  It could have happened to me at that age.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 18, 2020, 07:36:13 PM

There is no reason anyone over the age of 13 should succumb to any level of "peer pressure."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 18, 2020, 07:37:20 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 18, 2020, 07:36:13 PM

There is no reason anyone over the age of 13 should succumb to any level of "peer pressure."

That's strong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on July 19, 2020, 06:30:49 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 17, 2020, 09:00:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 17, 2020, 08:47:51 AM

My company doesn't do any of the data collecting, they just match it with ads so I don't know, but my guess is it listens to everything because of the many examples of people experiencing that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think as many people experience this as they think. They believe they are, but they're not. They interpret themselves as "thinking" about something and getting ads, but in reality they've been broadcasting their interests for a long time. I might be "thinking" about BBQ sauce all afternoon, but haven't searched for BBQ sauce online. If I'm scrolling through Instagram and their algorithms note that I spend 18% more time looking at BBQ related pictures over the average of anything else, it could easily deduce that I got BBQ sauce in some capacity on my mind. I didn't have to search for anything specific, or tell anyone verbally about my interest in BBQ. The simple act of slowing down the rate at which I scroll through my feed when BBQ is present is more than enough to identify what's on my mind.

My mom is super guilty of this. "I was thinking about how I needed new yarn the other day and immediately started seeing ads for it. I think my phone was listening when I told your father". Well, maybe. But also consider that she buys hundreds of dollars worth of yarn per year, both in store and on Amazon. The internet knows she likes to knit, as does Michael's. It's no secret. Also, it's entirely possible she's been seeing ads for knitting stuff all the time and just tunes them out. They only reason she noticed them this most recent time was because she was just thinking about it and actually needs what's being advertised to her.


Also, people think of hundreds of things a day. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. 

I really wish I could remember the pod cast that goes into this exact point of how using ai it's not that hard to figure out what you're interested in by simple buying/browing/location habits. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 19, 2020, 07:25:30 AM

A couple years ago, I started seeing Facebook ads for pinball machines.  I'm talking about real Bally or Williams tables from the 70's and 80's.  Apparently there are companies out there that refurbish them and sell them for thousands of dollars.  Okay, if I had thousands of dollars to spend on something like that, that would definitely be cool.  But why I am seeing all these ads all of a sudden?

After a couple weeks of this, my buddy John back in Michigan posts some pictures of the awesome pinball machine he bought online, one of the ones we spent countless hours on back when we were kids.  Facebook knew he was looking around for one, and figured his friends might be interested as well.  Next time we got together at his house (this is all pre-COVID, obviously) we played a few rounds, and I said that that explains why I was seeing Facebook ads for pinballs machines.  Everyone else said the same thing.  Facebook knows.  I don't know if it was smart enough to target only friends about the same age, as opposed to his kids and his kids' friends that he's friends with, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 19, 2020, 11:22:47 AM

Not sure what is more terrifying at this point; the virus, the way online marketing has inundated our lives, or a nationwide shortage of ramen and Coke.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 19, 2020, 12:18:14 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 19, 2020, 11:22:47 AM

Not sure what is more terrifying at this point; the virus, the way online marketing has inundated our lives, or a nationwide shortage of ramen and Coke.

Have WildRanger start a poll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 19, 2020, 12:54:55 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 19, 2020, 12:18:14 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 19, 2020, 11:22:47 AM

Not sure what is more terrifying at this point; the virus, the way online marketing has inundated our lives, or a nationwide shortage of ramen and Coke.

Have WildRanger start a poll.

:spitcoffee:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on July 19, 2020, 08:28:19 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 18, 2020, 07:37:20 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 18, 2020, 07:36:13 PM

There is no reason anyone over the age of 13 should succumb to any level of "peer pressure."

That's strong.

Ya.  Pretty harsh.  There's countless adults that succumb to peer pressure such as in this typical example:

"I'm not drinking tonight."
"Come on, just one, it won't be as fun with us if you don't drink."
"Ok."

I would say, however, that if I knew then what I know now I would have been stronger-willed growing up.  I did stanground pretty well for myself but there's definitely some moments I wish I could do over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 19, 2020, 08:57:28 PM

Yes it was harsh, and it bit over the top, but I was going for a little hyperbole. I did not intend it to be interpreted maliciously - hard to tell over the internet, I forget sometimes. I have also been essentially a loner for my adult life, not counting my beloved wife. So any and all f'ups I've made (there are plenty) I can only attribute to myself.

On topic... no one here but me seems to be talking about what schools are going to do in the fall. I have double the bested interest in this with a kid in 4th grade and a teacher for a wife. My wife works with special needs kids who 1) are going to be less likely to want to wear a mask, wash their hands, observe social distance, and 2) need more hands-on (literally) learning, so is especially concerned about her health and safety. There is a bunch of talk about getting kids back to school when it is "safe" but no real discussion about what "safe" means in this context.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 20, 2020, 05:23:40 AM

Our town has to submit an initial plan to the state by 7/31, and a more comprehensive plan by 8/10.

I would imagine they've been given guidelines by the State.


I'm not sure anyone knows what will be "safe".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 20, 2020, 06:17:53 AM

I find the whole school thing intriguing. My kids will be unaffected because we've homeschooled them for many years before all of this. It's not just about the virus and possible spread. It's about social isolation for kids, domestic abuse at home increasing during stay-at-home orders, the fact that many kids only eat when they're at school, and a whole lot of other factors weighing in favor of kids being physically at school. It almost seems like no one wants to be the first school to make a final decision on what they're doing. Everyone is waiting for someone else to decide so they can follow suit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 20, 2020, 06:52:06 AM

I've seen the plans for my local schools... half the kids come in on A day, half the kids come in on B day... they're trying to do half days at school and half at home... I don't see how any of this works or helps with the pandemic at all. You have teachers chopping up their entire schedules, effectively having two sets of kids instead of one. Then you have to hope everybody gets home and online in time for remote learning, if all the kids can even access the Internet. Then you have to hope everybody pays attention and has the same material and can contact the teacher. And if you have the kids together in the same room once, you already risk transmitting the virus, it doesn't matter if you do some crazy complex scheduling after that.

Just seems like a clusterfuck all around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 07:40:21 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 20, 2020, 06:52:06 AM

Just seems like a clusterfuck all around.

Pretty much.  It's a shit show for everyone - gov't, school boards, administrators, teachers, parents, students.  There is NO good option - only trying to find the least-worst one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 20, 2020, 07:41:30 AM

But I just don't get it, if you're already having kids there for even half a day, why not just have school all day. Why complicate it with all this other bullshit? Elementary school kids can barely focus on school under normal conditions. I think people are fooling themselves into thinking all these complex plans are actually helping when they're... probably not doing much to prevent the spread since you are, at some point, grouping everybody together. At some point we're just going to have to return to our normal lives. A high school or college student isn't going to have nearly the same consequences as a younger, developing mind from missing a semester of quality education...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 07:53:01 AM

I thought the idea with having half the kids there at a time was so that they could be spread out more, with more space between each desk/seat and hallways less crowded, etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 20, 2020, 07:58:08 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 07:53:01 AM

I thought the idea with having half the kids there at a time was so that they could be spread out more, with more space between each desk/seat and hallways less crowded, etc.

It means less kids on each bus as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 08:12:12 AM

Some positive news today

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53469839 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53469839)

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/good-news/coronavirus-vaccine-by-september-oxford-university-trial-on-track-astrazeneca-634907 (https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/good-news/coronavirus-vaccine-by-september-oxford-university-trial-on-track-astrazeneca-634907)

seems we are getting close to a working vaccine that will be available this fall

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 20, 2020, 09:09:59 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 18, 2020, 07:36:13 PM

There is no reason anyone over the age of 13 should succumb to any level of "peer pressure."

If only.   The problem is, of course, that most people succumb to it without even knowing it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 20, 2020, 09:12:55 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 20, 2020, 09:09:59 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 18, 2020, 07:36:13 PM

There is no reason anyone over the age of 13 should succumb to any level of "peer pressure."

If only.   The problem is, of course, that most people succumb to it without even knowing it.

File this under the "unconvenient truths" and spread it everywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on July 20, 2020, 09:14:04 AM

Another great side effect of Covid that is starting to take off now is unemployment fraud.

We live in Illinois. On Friday my wife got a letter from the Georgia Dept of Labor informing her that she has been declined unemployment insurance. Then on Saturday she gets another letter reversing the decision. We spent our weekend freezing all of her credit reports, submitting a complaint on identitytheft.gov and are now trying to get in contact with Georgia. Problem is, there phone lines are jammed and we can never even get into a queue. Just a message that they are slammed and it hangs up. Nice.

As for schools, we still don't know. We have been sent two questionnaires from the district. I think the plan is to give us an idea by the end of the month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 09:32:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 08:12:12 AM

Some positive news today

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53469839 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53469839)

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/good-news/coronavirus-vaccine-by-september-oxford-university-trial-on-track-astrazeneca-634907 (https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/good-news/coronavirus-vaccine-by-september-oxford-university-trial-on-track-astrazeneca-634907)

seems we are getting close to a working vaccine that will be available this fall

Every day, markets are clinging to hope and reporting on every little thing that hints at progress for a vaccine. If there is one in the next 12 months ready for global distribution, I'll shart myself.

Pfizer-UK also had an announcement this morning. You can see at least a few reports of "progress" towards a vaccine by big pharma, gov'ts, and/or researchers/labs every day practically.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 09:34:51 AM

Yea but it's actually looking brighter. They are starting to think this will actually be available in September  which was the talked about timeline back in march so its positive to still see the same timeline and actual positive results from the first rounds of trials. It's starting to become reality and not just hopeful news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 09:36:07 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 09:34:51 AM

Yea but it's actually looking brighter. They are starting to think this will actually be available in September  which was the talked about timeline back in march so its positive to still see the same timeline and actual positive results from the first rounds of trials. It's starting to become reality and not just hopeful news.

Well, one of the many 'rules' I live my life by is "never deprive anyone of hope; it might be all they have".  So I'll just leave it at that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 20, 2020, 09:55:16 AM

There may be a vaccine approved later this year, but that's a far stretch from there being a meaningful number of doses actually available. It's going to be a cluster to figure out who gets them (countries and individuals) early on. Hopefully the best versions will be shared with other countries and companies to be mass produced around the world. Hopefully the syringe companies are already ramping up their production.

I also will not be lining up early for a fast tracked vaccine that skipped many of the normal safety testing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 10:04:30 AM

UK already order 1 million doses of the vaccine I linked.  You are right, it won't just magically be available for everyone, but it seems it will  be just like the testing where initially it's only available to those who need it the most (and those who are rich/famous) and eventually it will be available for everyone.  The idea is that first phase is already available this September.  If that happens, that's a huge push to getting back to "normal" by the winter time.  Of course it's all hopeful, but those articles seem to be pretty positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 20, 2020, 10:16:36 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 10:04:30 AM

UK already order 1 million doses of the vaccine I linked.  You are right, it won't just magically be available for everyone, but it seems it will  be just like the testing where initially it's only available to those who need it the most (and those who are rich/famous) and eventually it will be available for everyone.  The idea is that first phase is already available this September.  If that happens, that's a huge push to getting back to "normal" by the winter time.  Of course it's all hopeful, but those articles seem to be pretty positive.

I've read estimate all over the board on when we'll have a meaningful number of vaccine dose available depending on the optimism of the author I'm sure. Anywhere from early 2021 to more than a year after it's approved. I'm not really sure who to believe. I'm personally not expecting anything close to "normal life" until spring 2021 at the earliest. Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised and it will come sooner.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 20, 2020, 10:35:41 AM

I haven't followed the vaccines scientifically that much, but I hope they will not be limited to a short term antibody response, which can be a real problem with many vaccines. It is why much research is being done to have vaccines that elicit strong t-cell responses (I have done work in that field). The development of all kinds of corona vaccines has been fast tracked for obvious reasons, but gathering data on how well it protects for longer periods of time (half a year, a year, longer?), generally requires, well, time. And antibody levels for coronaviruses in general, including this one, seem to wane quickly.

Still, on the short term there seem to be promising candidates and that might at the very least save many lives in a scenario where a major outbreak is starting, along with effective screening and selecting people at higher risk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 10:38:32 AM

Those articles that Cram linked have a nice level of detail.  Antibodies and T-cells for the layperson.  It definitely sounds promising.

Front-line healthcare workers get the vaccines first.  That's as it should be.  Next in line are the high-risk folks, of which I am one.  I figure that by time they get to me, we'll know what the side-effects are, so I'll be in line.  If I get the virus, I'll probably die; that's just a fact.  Therefore I'll take the vaccine.  Whatever side-effects aren't known by time they're ready to give me my shot are worth the risk (to me), so if they're still giving them, I'm taking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 10:42:31 AM

The article said theres a 70% chance of a side effect of either a fever or headache, also the Chinese version of the vaccine they are already giving to their military has some bad side effects apparently (I read about that a couple weeks ago, and don't recall the details).  It seems likely there will be side effects, but a one time fever/headache might be worth it if it allows us to get back to life as we knew it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kaos2900 on July 20, 2020, 10:43:05 AM

It seems like every other week I've seen article about a promising vaccine. I'll believe when I see it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 10:47:47 AM

With over 150 vaccines in development now, it makes sense that we'll hear about them all the time.  True, none of that matters until we have having a working solution.

I'm kinda surprised by how many people say they won't take the vaccine when it becomes available.  I hate needles, and I'm not a big fan of headaches or fever, but compared to death, I'll take my chances.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on July 20, 2020, 12:14:52 PM

People in Missouri better hope a vaccine comes soon.

https://www.businessinsider.com/missouri-governor-kids-must-go-back-school-despite-covid-19-2020-7

Missouri Gov. Mike Parson, a Republican, in a radio interview on Friday said that children have to go back to school, where they will get COVID-19 but will "get over it."

"These kids have got to get back to school," Parson told Marc Cox on KFTK. "They're at the lowest risk possible. And if they do get COVID-19, which they will — and they will when they go to school — they're not going to the hospitals. They're not going to have to sit in doctor's offices. They're going to go home and they're going to get over it."

I think he clearly forgot the last part of that statement. "....and they will pass it on to all of the adults in their family".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 20, 2020, 12:20:01 PM

It's truly mind-blowing to me at this point.

Missouri has released hundreds of inmates because of Covid concerns in the over-crowded prisons, yet they're totally cool with cramming children on buses and in classrooms. This doesn't end with the kids. There are teachers and other staff involved, the families that they return to after spending they day in the petri dish, and the potential hospital resources they're going to tie up when they inevitably come down with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 12:21:16 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 20, 2020, 12:14:52 PM

People in Missouri better hope a vaccine comes soon.

https://www.businessinsider.com/missouri-governor-kids-must-go-back-school-despite-covid-19-2020-7

Missouri Gov. Mike Parson, a Republican, in a radio interview on Friday said that children have to go back to school, where they will get COVID-19 but will "get over it."

"These kids have got to get back to school," Parson told Marc Cox on KFTK. "They're at the lowest risk possible. And if they do get COVID-19, which they will — and they will when they go to school — they're not going to the hospitals. They're not going to have to sit in doctor's offices. They're going to go home and they're going to get over it."

I think he clearly forgot the last part of that statement. "....and they will pass it on to all of the adults in their family".

Yea seriously, did he just forget that the kids can spread it to other people who WILL need to go to the hospital and WILL have complications? 

I got to admit, I'm a bit on the fence with the school thing.  I have no kids so I have no skin in the game, making my thoughts fairly meaningless, but I do think full at home schooling is not the answer.  It's not healthy for the growing children to be so isolated and it's not good for the parents to sacrifice work to support the kids at home.  However, it's not totally safe to just open back up.  I don't have answers, but the idea of rotating days does seem like an OK start for the solution here.  One of my good friends is a teacher and he's certainly worried about his own health going back to the schools in the fall (if it happens) so I really feel for the adults who work the schools, but I just don't know how sustainable it is to keep the kids home. I wonder if they can also start in the fall with more outdoor classes because the inside AC moving all the air in the building seems to be a way of spreading the virus.  Maybe they can start the fall with half classes and some of them being taught outdoors until it gets colder.  Just really delaying the issue, but if we can delay a bit more until there's a vaccine, this could be a way to temporarily get things going again. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 12:56:30 PM

Does anyone see the (moronic) irony that many school systems and states have existing laws requiring MANDATORY vaccination of several diseases, or children will be denied enrolment ... yet are now trying to force children into situations that are about the riskiest of any for transmission of a deadly virus?

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1571.gif&hash=2c27a833f811b71231715459c70934c1b1dd8fb3)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 20, 2020, 01:18:41 PM

Well, if you think hard enough, you can pretty much come up with a counterargument to anything, and then superimpose the two to try to make it look moronic/ironic.  But just brushing it off and casting it in those terms is really just ignoring/downplaying the reasoning behind the decision rather than confronting it, so I am not sure how that is helpful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 01:33:20 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on July 20, 2020, 01:18:41 PM

Well, if you think hard enough, you can pretty much come up with a counterargument to anything, and then superimpose the two to try to make it look moronic/ironic.  But just brushing it off and casting it in those terms is really just ignoring/downplaying the reasoning behind the decision rather than confronting it, so I am not sure how that is helpful.

I guess it is pretty easy, since that's exactly what you just did to me.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 20, 2020, 02:44:14 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 12:56:30 PM

Does anyone see the (moronic) irony that many school systems and states have existing laws requiring MANDATORY vaccination of several diseases, or children will be denied enrolment ... yet are now trying to force children into situations that are about the riskiest of any for transmission of a deadly virus?

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1571.gif&hash=2c27a833f811b71231715459c70934c1b1dd8fb3)

Yeah, from that perspective it doesn't make much sense. On the other side you've get the toll on working parents of having kids home all day, increased instances of domestic violence with everyone home, kids going hungry if they don't go to school, etc. It's easy to focus on the just virus, but there are tons of reasons the risks might be worth it for many kids. I do think schools do need to have an opt out option for parents who aren't comfortable with their kids going to school.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on July 20, 2020, 02:48:50 PM

I really can't believe all the comments i read here,sheeple i'd say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 02:57:17 PM

Hey, I get it - I said earlier it's a matter of trying to find the least-worst option.  There are going to be 'cons' to any solution that people try and come up with.  I guess in my mind, the con of putting every human being that is inside the school premises (plus bus drivers) at heightened risk pretty much over-shadows every 'pro' that can be thought of.  Lordxizor, the abuse and hunger issues are very real, and very concerning... but (speaking factually) don't affect 100% of people in the school premises.  The social skill issue is a big one too, and that *does* have an impact on everyone.

I don't know what the least-worst option is, but I don't think sending kids and teachers et al back to school is it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on July 20, 2020, 02:58:43 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 20, 2020, 02:48:50 PM

I really can't believe all the comments i read here,sheeple i'd say.

Do tell...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 03:04:54 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 20, 2020, 02:48:50 PM

I really can't believe all the comments i read here,sheeple i'd say.

 :rollin That term gets a good laugh out of me every time I see it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 20, 2020, 03:08:02 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 20, 2020, 07:58:08 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 07:53:01 AM

I thought the idea with having half the kids there at a time was so that they could be spread out more, with more space between each desk/seat and hallways less crowded, etc.

It means less kids on each bus as well.

I get that, but like, are all the teachers really gonna wipe down every surface? And if even one kid gets it, that means they should pretty much keep the entire class home. It just seems ridiculously complex and unnecessary considering how quickly all the positives can be negated, and with how hands-on most elementary teachers have to be with their students it just seems like it's all lined up for failure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 20, 2020, 03:15:36 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 20, 2020, 03:08:02 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 20, 2020, 07:58:08 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 07:53:01 AM

I thought the idea with having half the kids there at a time was so that they could be spread out more, with more space between each desk/seat and hallways less crowded, etc.

It means less kids on each bus as well.

I get that, but like, are all the teachers really gonna wipe down every surface? And if even one kid gets it, that means they should pretty much keep the entire class home. It just seems ridiculously complex and unnecessary considering how quickly all the positives can be negated, and with how hands-on most elementary teachers have to be with their students it just seems like it's all lined up for failure.

I don't even know how you'll know who has it since the vast majority of kids who do get it are asymptomatic.  You'd have to do regular testing.  I really don't know how it could work once you realize the virus is in the school system.  I had CNN on early this morning and they were talking about some summer schools that are open as a way to set example, they have staff constantly cleaning, temp readings before you come in, masks at all times, social distancing for the most part and no issue yet but it's also a much lower volume of kids so it's hard to be able to do the same system with a large school system. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on July 20, 2020, 03:24:39 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 20, 2020, 02:48:50 PM

I really can't believe all the comments i read here,sheeple i'd say.

And the forum rules here do not permit namecalling, so knock that off.  You are free to disagree with whatever you please, but you are required to keep it civil if you post here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: frogprog on July 20, 2020, 03:34:37 PM

My wife is a elementary teacher in the Philadelphia School District. Inner city.
 Between all the hoops she is going to have to jump through for covid and all the new rules and measures put in place due to all the social unrest, there is no way she Will be able to teach her second graders effectively. She is not a nurse nor is she a social worker but that is all going to be added to what is expected of her.
She is already starting to have nightmares about going back in August.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 20, 2020, 04:14:12 PM

Quote from: frogprog on July 20, 2020, 03:34:37 PM

My wife is a elementary teacher in the Philadelphia School District. Inner city.
 Between all the hoops she is going to have to jump through for covid and all the new rules and measures put in place due to all the social unrest, there is no way she Will be able to teach her second graders effectively. She is not a nurse nor is she a social worker but that is all going to be added to what is expected of her.
She is already starting to have nightmares about going back in August.

Way too much for a teacher to have to deal with. My thoughts are with her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 20, 2020, 04:46:23 PM

Quote from: frogprog on July 20, 2020, 03:34:37 PM

My wife is a elementary teacher in the Philadelphia School District. Inner city.
 Between all the hoops she is going to have to jump through for covid and all the new rules and measures put in place due to all the social unrest, there is no way she Will be able to teach her second graders effectively. She is not a nurse nor is she a social worker but that is all going to be added to what is expected of her.
She is already starting to have nightmares about going back in August.

You're poor wife!  I feel really bad for all the teachers.  It's kind of like they are being thrown into this as cannon fodder.

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 12:56:30 PM

Does anyone see the (moronic) irony that many school systems and states have existing laws requiring MANDATORY vaccination of several diseases, or children will be denied enrolment ... yet are now trying to force children into situations that are about the riskiest of any for transmission of a deadly virus?

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1571.gif&hash=2c27a833f811b71231715459c70934c1b1dd8fb3)

Yeah, government think never ceases to amaze me.  Didn't you know that putting a square peg in a round hole is their specialty?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 04:56:22 PM

Re: Teachers/Teaching...

(https://scontent.fybz2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/109132356_10158789451556672_4056077907261810477_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=0wbe4YcrKUgAX-rJF_5&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-2.fna&_nc_tp=7&oh=dff28a56b5cf35ef507d36038c01ee28&oe=5F3A4DCD)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 05:31:02 PM

I used to be a classroom teacher; my Bachelor's is in Education.  Man, I'm glad I'm not teaching anymore.  Been out of that game for a while now.

I'm also fucking glad my kids are older, both in their 20's, so the whole public school nightmare isn't an issue.  My daughter is a senior in college, however, currently taking two online classes but on-campus classes resume in the fall, then she's done.  At this point, I can't see throwing away all the money we've put into it so far, so I guess she's going, even though that's kinda scary.  Some of the classes are available online, but some are classroom only, and the fucking college president is a moron who insists on opening campus.  [I'm not gonna mention the school or the moron college president.  Longtime readers may remember where my daughter goes to school, as I've mentioned it before.]  All we can do is tell her to be smart, keep her social distance, etc., and spend as little time as possible around others.  She's young, somewhat lower risk.  Hope for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 10:27:16 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 20, 2020, 05:31:02 PM

I used to be a classroom teacher; my Bachelor's is in Education.  Man, I'm glad I'm not teaching anymore.  Been out of that game for a while now.

I'm also fucking glad my kids are older, both in their 20's, so the whole public school nightmare isn't an issue.  My daughter is a senior in college, however, currently taking two online classes but on-campus classes resume in the fall, then she's done.  At this point, I can't see throwing away all the money we've put into it so far, so I guess she's going, even though that's kinda scary.  Some of the classes are available online, but some are classroom only, and the fucking college president is a moron who insists on opening campus.  [I'm not gonna mention the school or the moron college president.  Longtime readers may remember where my daughter goes to school, as I've mentioned it before.]  All we can do is tell her to be smart, keep her social distance, etc., and spend as little time as possible around others.  She's young, somewhat lower risk.  Hope for the best.

I have a good friend who is a teacher and this has been a nightmare for him as well.  But Orbert, props to you for teaching our youth while you did.  From what I understand, that sounds like a very difficult job.  My hats off to anyone who chooses that as their profession.  It's probably one of the most noble career choices that exist.

As far as the school problems go, my family and I don't need to worry about it much because we homeschool.  But I feel really bad for you parents who do have to deal with this.  It's a giant headache no matter how you slice it.  I can't wait for this to be over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 21, 2020, 10:32:23 AM

I'm working from home and don't have kids.  Wow, maybe I should start playing the lottery or something.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 21, 2020, 10:41:29 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 19, 2020, 08:57:28 PM

I have double the bested interest in this with a kid in 4th grade and a teacher for a wife. My wife works with special needs kids who 1) are going to be less likely to want to wear a mask, wash their hands, observe social distance, and 2) need more hands-on (literally) learning, so is especially concerned about her health and safety. There is a bunch of talk about getting kids back to school when it is "safe" but no real discussion about what "safe" means in this context.

I think we've talked about this briefly before....but, my wife is a SSD teacher as well of K-2nd grade. The concerns you mention are real....those kids just simply can't adhere to any type of hygiene under normal circumstances....much less follow pandemic guidelines.

This is the plan our boys district and most of the Missouri School Districts have adopted:

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOt7vrhI.png&hash=050807cd7fc6311057523d8da107f37b0b7d7e6f) (https://imgur.com/Ot7vrhI)


The direction right now is that the school year will start in Hybrid Learning Level 'B'. Many of the board members and administrators believe it'll be maybe two weeks before it just gets moved to Level 'C'. There's simply no way it won't end there.

As for our choice, it's tough because our oldest son has an IEP and needs specified help and modifications with Math and English....this usually happens with 1 on 1 interaction with a teacher. I'm not qualified to do this from home and my wife is a teacher......add in the fact he's our son and the dynamics of that relationship where we're 'telling' him what to do all the time anyway and it becomes tough.

It's just a massive cluster F......then you get into the tweet that Chad shared above about what you're asking these teachers to do and it's just unreal to think about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 21, 2020, 11:19:51 AM

Our school district just announced their plans, and I mostly feel bad for my daughter, since she won't experience a normal school day for a while.  She's just starting kindergarden.  I hate that she'll have to have a mask on while in class.  My wife is a stay at home mom, so we'll make things work. 

What makes me angry is the reaction of so many parents, expressing their immediate unhappiness that the district's plans don't work for them.  This isn't a perfect situation and it's so fluid.  School districts can't come up with options for every individual family.  So stop complaining that the school's plans don't fit into your schedule.  Put on your adult pants and figure out how to make it work yourself.

We all have to figure out how to navigate our regular, normal lives without much guidance.  So why do you expect a school district to hand this to you on a silver platter?  They didn't before - you had school and bus times, and it was always up to your family to figure out how to make it work via after school care.  The same applies here.

What most families forget are the teachers unions, which are likely fighting to keep teachers out of school as long as possible during the day to limit their exposure and keep them safe.  So school districts are stuck between parents wanting fuller, more normal days and unions fighting for much less.  It's just such an awful situation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 21, 2020, 11:23:05 AM

I wonder if they'll still have band classes. Lots of problems, you know, with spit valves and flute players and close proximity etc...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 21, 2020, 11:44:53 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 21, 2020, 11:23:05 AM

I wonder if they'll still have band classes. Lots of problems, you know, with spit valves and flute players and close proximity etc...

rumor is that most extra cirricular activities will be halted....including sports, band, etc etc.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 21, 2020, 12:15:49 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 21, 2020, 11:44:53 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 21, 2020, 11:23:05 AM

I wonder if they'll still have band classes. Lots of problems, you know, with spit valves and flute players and close proximity etc...

rumor is that most extra cirricular activities will be halted....including sports, band, etc etc.

Good. More time for me to have peace and quiet at the high school track.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM

Can anyone really expect children in the 4-10 age bracket to keep a mask on for 6 hours straight?  Shit, I know I couldn't/wouldn't want to.  K-2 aged kids will be fidgeting and pulling them off constantly.  The don't have the cognitive comprehension to fully grasp the purpose of it.  7-10 year olds (boys) will be flinging and flicking them like we did with rubber band.  Mask-policing alone would make me want to kill myself - or at least keep a 40oz of something in my drawer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 21, 2020, 01:08:36 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM

Can anyone really expect children in the 4-10 age bracket to keep a mask on for 6 hours straight?  Shit, I know I couldn't/wouldn't want to.  K-2 aged kids will be fidgeting and pulling them off constantly.  The don't have the cognitive comprehension to fully grasp the purpose of it.  7-10 year olds (boys) will be flinging and flicking them like we did with rubber band.  Mask-policing alone would make me want to kill myself - or at least keep a 40oz of something in my drawer.

Don't get me started; my son has sensory processing disorder - I thought it was billshot too, until I saw the look on his face when the lady at the water park put the bracelet on him - and this isn't going to work for him.  We have to cut out all the tags from his shirts (or buy them without tags to begin with), we have to make sure his pants have certain seams, we have to make sure the clothing wicks perspiration appropriately, if socks or shoes get wet, forget about it...  I remember he loved a hat we saw somewhere (his brother is rarely seen without one) and wanted it, so I bought it for him, but he can't wear it and keeps it on a shelf.   

I can't see him with a mask on for more than 15 minutes or so.

But the other side of it is, without the one-on-one interaction, his learning is basically zero, despite our best efforts. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 01:32:11 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM

Can anyone really expect children in the 4-10 age bracket to keep a mask on for 6 hours straight?  Shit, I know I couldn't/wouldn't want to.  K-2 aged kids will be fidgeting and pulling them off constantly.  The don't have the cognitive comprehension to fully grasp the purpose of it.  7-10 year olds (boys) will be flinging and flicking them like we did with rubber band.  Mask-policing alone would make me want to kill myself - or at least keep a 40oz of something in my drawer.

Yeah, my wife and I were talking about this very thing just the other day.  I'm not sure how they expect this to work.

Quote from: The Walrus on July 21, 2020, 12:15:49 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 21, 2020, 11:44:53 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 21, 2020, 11:23:05 AM

I wonder if they'll still have band classes. Lots of problems, you know, with spit valves and flute players and close proximity etc...

rumor is that most extra cirricular activities will be halted....including sports, band, etc etc.

Good. More time for me to have peace and quiet at the high school track.  :lol

 :lol

I don't know how it is in other areas, but a friend of mine who is a band teacher, at the end of last year he'd been teaching his band class through Zoom.  Although it wasn't ideal, it still worked.  I'd hate to see these programs and their teachers completely go by the wayside over this if a workaround can be found.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 21, 2020, 01:34:19 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 01:32:11 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM

Can anyone really expect children in the 4-10 age bracket to keep a mask on for 6 hours straight?  Shit, I know I couldn't/wouldn't want to.  K-2 aged kids will be fidgeting and pulling them off constantly.  The don't have the cognitive comprehension to fully grasp the purpose of it.  7-10 year olds (boys) will be flinging and flicking them like we did with rubber band.  Mask-policing alone would make me want to kill myself - or at least keep a 40oz of something in my drawer.

Yeah, my wife and I were talking about this very thing just the other day.  I'm not sure how they expect this to work.

Pull the nuns out of retirement and equip them with some rulers!

(I kid, I kid)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 21, 2020, 01:34:19 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 01:32:11 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM

Can anyone really expect children in the 4-10 age bracket to keep a mask on for 6 hours straight?  Shit, I know I couldn't/wouldn't want to.  K-2 aged kids will be fidgeting and pulling them off constantly.  The don't have the cognitive comprehension to fully grasp the purpose of it.  7-10 year olds (boys) will be flinging and flicking them like we did with rubber band.  Mask-policing alone would make me want to kill myself - or at least keep a 40oz of something in my drawer.

Yeah, my wife and I were talking about this very thing just the other day.  I'm not sure how they expect this to work.

Pull the nuns out of retirement and equip them with some rulers!

(I kid, I kid)

Oh boy!  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 21, 2020, 01:46:20 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 21, 2020, 01:34:19 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 01:32:11 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM

Can anyone really expect children in the 4-10 age bracket to keep a mask on for 6 hours straight?  Shit, I know I couldn't/wouldn't want to.  K-2 aged kids will be fidgeting and pulling them off constantly.  The don't have the cognitive comprehension to fully grasp the purpose of it.  7-10 year olds (boys) will be flinging and flicking them like we did with rubber band.  Mask-policing alone would make me want to kill myself - or at least keep a 40oz of something in my drawer.

Yeah, my wife and I were talking about this very thing just the other day.  I'm not sure how they expect this to work.

Pull the nuns out of retirement and equip them with some rulers!

(I kid, I kid)

Oh boy!  :lol

Or a pvc rod that the bitch nun used when I was growing up. But I was a good kid.  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 21, 2020, 02:16:39 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM

Can anyone really expect children in the 4-10 age bracket to keep a mask on for 6 hours straight? 

I can't even expect adults on this board to wear a mask for 6 minutes!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on July 21, 2020, 03:52:34 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 20, 2020, 04:56:22 PM

Re: Teachers/Teaching...

(https://scontent.fybz2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/109132356_10158789451556672_4056077907261810477_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=0wbe4YcrKUgAX-rJF_5&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-2.fna&_nc_tp=7&oh=dff28a56b5cf35ef507d36038c01ee28&oe=5F3A4DCD)

Awesome... but also sad.  They forgot to add the one about paying for stuff (games/activities/supplies) out of your own pocket to bring to the classroom and not being reimbursed for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 21, 2020, 04:09:24 PM

For us the opening of schools went well (in the sense that it did not cause any spikes), but it was with proper measures and more limited schedules (and the adults had to follow all protocols for adults, offcourse). Offcourse our openings were during the time when the virus was way less rampant already. It seems ill advised to open up in areas where the virus is spreading on a large scale, as that way you will never be able to trace what causes spread and what not (which is why our government had many different phases of things opening up).

Still, our version of the CDC seems pretty convinced that for most kids under 12 this virus poses a very minimal risk. And the spread through children seems minimal. Older kids, however, are considered a bit of a different matter.

But offcourse our situation was different and, again, during a time of rampant outbreaks it is hard to measure the effects of opening up schools.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 04:36:23 PM

Remind me again where you're at ErHaO... Finland sticks in my mind for some reason.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 21, 2020, 06:42:55 PM

My wife is a teacher, so I have a dog in this race, and while I fully understand the challenges and anxiety she is feeling about teaching special needs kids in the fall, that tweet is a little over the top. I am too tired to dig in to it now. More later (possibly).

Our district was the first in the state (to my knowledge) to announce their intentions for the fall. Kids in class 2 days a week, alternating between M/T and Th/F, with Wednesday being a cleaning/teacher learning day, and kids learning virtually full time should that be their preference. (Basically the Hybrid from Gary's infographic - except that third virtual day goes away). Two other districts announced full virtual learning.

Last month I felt strongly about getting all the kids in the classroom in the fall. Now I feel like if we are saying schools aren't "safe" (and what that means hasn't been clearly defined), then we should say they aren't "safe" at all, instead of saying they are "safe" under a hybrid model. If you are a family who relies on your kids being in school for whatever reason (financial, emotional...) I don't know how much more beneficial it is to have them in school 2 days versus zero days, meaning you are screwed only 3 days out of the week versus 5. 

As people have said, this is a Kobayashi Maru scenario. There are no right answers, this is a lose-lose-lose proposition.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 22, 2020, 04:56:25 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 21, 2020, 04:36:23 PM

Remind me again where you're at ErHaO... Finland sticks in my mind for some reason.

The Netherlands. Schools opened back in may , earlier in the month (11th). I think our version of high school was/is a different matter, but the schools for kids under the age 13 were opened. I think other European nations followed a similar trajectory. And prior to that, late April, children under the age of 13 were already allowed to play outside together again, with some restrictions.

These different phases allowed to provide us some insight as to what causes significant spread and what not, though offcourse our setting might differ from the US in major ways, too many unknown factors.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on July 22, 2020, 08:16:29 AM

A small city just south of us tried in-class summer school and last week had a positive test occur. Cleaned up everything sent the kids back and had another positive test this week.  Yesterday their school board voted to send kids back to school this fall.

Makes no sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 22, 2020, 08:20:32 AM

Quote from: T-ski on July 22, 2020, 08:16:29 AM

A small city just south of us tried in-class summer school and last week had a positive test occur. Cleaned up everything sent the kids back and had another positive test this week.  Yesterday their school board voted to send kids back to school this fall.

Makes no sense.

If they are able to successfully isolate the people who get positive, then it shows it works, but it sounds like that didn't happen if there's a second positive. 

Apparently in the NBA, they had a few positives when they started but now that everyones been in their bubble, no ones been testing positive now.  We'll see if that holds true as they start the season, but the idea of being able to create that bubble is kind of interesting.  Obviously, you can't do that with kids, but my friend said a group of families he knows is doing exactly that.  They are going to home school all their kids and these families are all sharing resources and not stepping outside their bubble together.  Seems a bit extreme, but it just might keep everyone from getting the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 22, 2020, 09:35:21 AM

Quote from: T-ski on July 22, 2020, 08:16:29 AM

A small city just south of us tried in-class summer school and last week had a positive test occur. Cleaned up everything sent the kids back and had another positive test this week.  Yesterday their school board voted to send kids back to school this fall.

Makes no sense.

And I'll guarantee the school board met via Zoom.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 22, 2020, 01:20:53 PM

Masks now mandatory in Minnesota. Thank God. I feel like now we can move on and see what happens now that masks are mandatory. Our numbers have been plateauing, so it’ll be interesting to see where our numbers go now. Walz said a few weeks back that if masks are made mandatory, he’ll open up businesses to full capacity in the next few weeks

My big question, and the governor hasn’t said it, is will this mask mandate be lifted once the pandemic is over? Or when they say the new normal, is this now going to be life where we wear masks forever in public. I know this is the norm in Asian cultures, but will we always have to wear masks? I work in a grocery store and wearing masks, while not the worst thing in the world, can be uncomfortable and makes it difficult to work. I just hope mandatory masks aren’t forever.


Edit: The mask mandate ends when the state’s peacetime emergency ends. So...not for quite awhile :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 22, 2020, 02:13:29 PM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 22, 2020, 01:20:53 PM

Masks now mandatory in Minnesota. Thank God. I feel like now we can move on and see what happens now that masks are mandatory. Our numbers have been plateauing, so it’ll be interesting to see where our numbers go now. Walz said a few weeks back that if masks are made mandatory, he’ll open up businesses to full capacity in the next few weeks

My big question, and the governor hasn’t said it, is will this mask mandate be lifted once the pandemic is over? Or when they say the new normal, is this now going to be life where we wear masks forever in public. I know this is the norm in Asian cultures, but will we always have to wear masks? I work in a grocery store and wearing masks, while not the worst thing in the world, can be uncomfortable and makes it difficult to work. I just hope mandatory masks aren’t forever.


Edit: The mask mandate ends when the state’s peacetime emergency ends. So...not for quite awhile :lol

I've been wondering the long term result of the mask wearing.  I hope we can take them off once this either dies down or we get a vaccine.  I'd hate to have to wear this for shopping and traveling as the norm.  I will wear my mask without complaint, but I don't really like doing it, at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 22, 2020, 02:31:58 PM

I've taken to wearing contacts again, though, because the masks fog my glasses. 

:)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 22, 2020, 02:35:41 PM

Quote from: salacious crumb on July 22, 2020, 02:31:58 PM

I've taken to wearing contacts again, though, because the masks fog my glasses. 

:)

STOP BEING MORE SEXY! IT'S ALREADY HARD ENOUGH FOR THE REST OF US!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 22, 2020, 02:39:07 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 22, 2020, 02:31:58 PM

I've taken to wearing contacts again, though, because the masks fog my glasses. 

:)

My glasses fog up as well, but I don't think anything could convince me to wear contacts again.  NO THANKS.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 22, 2020, 02:42:55 PM

I have a mask that ties around my head for work that I can cinch pretty tight, but comfortably, so that my glasses don't fog up. When it works, it works great. But the ear loop masks, they don't work at all for avoiding fogging my glasses. Some days I wish I had contacts

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 22, 2020, 02:47:21 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 22, 2020, 02:39:07 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 22, 2020, 02:31:58 PM

I've taken to wearing contacts again, though, because the masks fog my glasses. 

:)

My glasses fog up as well, but I don't think anything could convince me to wear contacts again.  NO THANKS.

What I found was that if I rest my glasses over my mask, they're fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 22, 2020, 03:13:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 22, 2020, 02:47:21 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 22, 2020, 02:39:07 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 22, 2020, 02:31:58 PM

I've taken to wearing contacts again, though, because the masks fog my glasses. 

:)

My glasses fog up as well, but I don't think anything could convince me to wear contacts again.  NO THANKS.

What I found was that if I rest my glasses over my mask, they're fine.

Thanks TAC  :tup  I'll give that a try.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 22, 2020, 03:15:55 PM

It's easy for me because they are basically reading glasses, so I pretty much wear them halfway down my nose at work. It's when I pull them to the top of my nose, over the lip of my mask and resting on my skin is where I find they fog up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:40:11 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 22, 2020, 02:13:29 PM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 22, 2020, 01:20:53 PM

Masks now mandatory in Minnesota. Thank God. I feel like now we can move on and see what happens now that masks are mandatory. Our numbers have been plateauing, so it’ll be interesting to see where our numbers go now. Walz said a few weeks back that if masks are made mandatory, he’ll open up businesses to full capacity in the next few weeks

My big question, and the governor hasn’t said it, is will this mask mandate be lifted once the pandemic is over? Or when they say the new normal, is this now going to be life where we wear masks forever in public. I know this is the norm in Asian cultures, but will we always have to wear masks? I work in a grocery store and wearing masks, while not the worst thing in the world, can be uncomfortable and makes it difficult to work. I just hope mandatory masks aren’t forever.


Edit: The mask mandate ends when the state’s peacetime emergency ends. So...not for quite awhile :lol

I've been wondering the long term result of the mask wearing.  I hope we can take them off once this either dies down or we get a vaccine.  I'd hate to have to wear this for shopping and traveling as the norm.  I will wear my mask without complaint, but I don't really like doing it, at all.

I'm annoyed with the mask mandate in Minnesota. Not because I think wearing masks is bad, but more because of how it was done. Cases had leveled off and hospitalizations, ICU patients, and deaths were flat or falling for months without a mask mandate. It just doesn't seem necessary since things were getting better without it. I personally don't think we're in an emergency state in our state. I think the legislature as a whole should be working together to make these decisions, not just the governor. I don't like how he gets to decide it's an emergency and then he gets to decide how to respond without any oversight. The legislature can vote to end the emergency, and they've tried but are a handful of votes short. I just really don't like the way we got here, moreso than the actual mandate.

I am honestly quite concerned with masks becoming the new normal. I can see next flu season, people saying "remember how it wasn't that bad to wear masks during Covid? Let's wear them now and save some lives" and then later "remember how it wasn't that big of a deal to wear masks during flu season? Let's wear them all the time and save lives". I would honestly move to a new state if Minnesota required them all the time. I don't think it will happen, but there will certainly be people advocating for it after all this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 23, 2020, 05:49:09 AM

I do agree with that 100%. I think Walz needs to be stripped of those emergency powers, but I just don’t see it ending anytime soon. I think he likes having the power and the Senate is Dem controlled. And yeah, our cases have been leveling off and we are in pretty good shape right now. That’s why I don’t see why we needed the mandate (especially when St Paul and MPLS already have a mandate).

On a side note, I don’t like that I’m shamed for wanting to be able to go to a restaurant, but they keep giving the thumbs up and throw high praise at people going out protesting. Yes, it’s outside, and yes, most seem to be wearing masks, but I get ridiculed for wanting to go to a mall?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:51:49 AM

This is one of the reasons why I am suspicious of the reported number of Covid deaths: My grandma's husband (they weren't really together anymore, but still married) had survived pneumonia followed by Covid over the last several months. He was in poor health, had dementia and just general old person issues, and honestly it sounds like it was for the best that he passed. He died of cardiac arrest on Sunday. He was marked down as a Covid death because he had had it, even though he had fully recovered.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:57:56 AM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 23, 2020, 05:49:09 AM

I do agree with that 100%. I think Walz needs to be stripped of those emergency powers, but I just don’t see it ending anytime soon. I think he likes having the power and the Senate is Dem controlled. And yeah, our cases have been leveling off and we are in pretty good shape right now. That’s why I don’t see why we needed the mandate (especially when St Paul and MPLS already have a mandate).

On a side note, I don’t like that I’m shamed for wanting to be able to go to a restaurant, but they keep giving the thumbs up and throw high praise at people going out protesting. Yes, it’s outside, and yes, most seem to be wearing masks, but I get ridiculed for wanting to go to a mall?

There are a handful of Dems that voted to end his powers, but not enough. I'll be curious if the mask mandate flips any more of them. It does seem that he likes the power. And that's not a good thing. It makes no sense to all for the mandate to be state wide. There are rural counties that have virtually no cases.

I also don't have any evidence for this (nor does anyone else really), but I'd be shocked if more than a small amount of the spread of Covid was coming from grocery stores, or Target, or things like that. I suspect the vast majority is coming from small gatherings of friends and family where people let their guard down. No one is going to start wearing masks at those things due to the new mandate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:25:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:51:49 AM

This is one of the reasons why I am suspicious of the reported number of Covid deaths: My grandma's husband (they weren't really together anymore, but still married) had survived pneumonia followed by Covid over the last several months. He was in poor health, had dementia and just general old person issues, and honestly it sounds like it was for the best that he passed. He died of cardiac arrest on Sunday. He was marked down as a Covid death because he had had it, even though he had fully recovered.

On a worldwide basis, the death numbers are likely (significantly) under reported, actually (a recent estimate was by about 130k). If you look at the average number of deaths each year and look at how many excess deaths there are statistically thus far in 2020, the number of reported corona deaths does not match that. And that very much applies to the US as well. And this is all the while many other causes of death are historically low due to lockdowns (traffic, occupational etc.).




Also, here is an article from a while about assigning deaths:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/)

Scientific American is a well regarded source. As this is a scientific outlet, they will discuss/address different possibilities and viewpoints.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 06:32:56 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:25:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:51:49 AM

This is one of the reasons why I am suspicious of the reported number of Covid deaths: My grandma's husband (they weren't really together anymore, but still married) had survived pneumonia followed by Covid over the last several months. He was in poor health, had dementia and just general old person issues, and honestly it sounds like it was for the best that he passed. He died of cardiac arrest on Sunday. He was marked down as a Covid death because he had had it, even though he had fully recovered.

On a worldwide basis, the death numbers are likely (significantly) under reported, actually (a recent estimate was by about 130k). If you look at the average number of deaths each year and look at how many excess deaths there are statistically thus far in 2020, the number of reported corona deaths does not match that. And that very much applies to the US as well. And this is all the while many other causes of death are historically low due to lockdowns (traffic, occupational etc.).




Also, here is an article from a while about assigning deaths:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/)

Scientific American is a well regarded source. As this is a scientific outlet, they will discuss/address different possibilities and viewpoints.

Yeah. I've seen that. We'll unfortunately never really know how many died form this. But I've also heard many similar stories to this one where people are being marked down as Covid deaths who didn't die from it. So it's obviously being undercounted in some ways, but overcounted in others. In the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't really matter, but being sick takes a toll on the elderly in particular making them more susceptible to other health issues even after they're free from the disease. Should those deaths count as Covid deaths if they recover from Covid, but are still weak from it weeks or months later and die from something else? I could see these types of deaths playing a role in what that study is seeing. They're not dying directly of Covid, but it could be playing an indirect role.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:54:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 06:32:56 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:25:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:51:49 AM

This is one of the reasons why I am suspicious of the reported number of Covid deaths: My grandma's husband (they weren't really together anymore, but still married) had survived pneumonia followed by Covid over the last several months. He was in poor health, had dementia and just general old person issues, and honestly it sounds like it was for the best that he passed. He died of cardiac arrest on Sunday. He was marked down as a Covid death because he had had it, even though he had fully recovered.

On a worldwide basis, the death numbers are likely (significantly) under reported, actually (a recent estimate was by about 130k). If you look at the average number of deaths each year and look at how many excess deaths there are statistically thus far in 2020, the number of reported corona deaths does not match that. And that very much applies to the US as well. And this is all the while many other causes of death are historically low due to lockdowns (traffic, occupational etc.).




Also, here is an article from a while about assigning deaths:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/)

Scientific American is a well regarded source. As this is a scientific outlet, they will discuss/address different possibilities and viewpoints.

Yeah. I've seen that. But I've also heard many similar stories to this one where people are being marked down as Covid deaths who didn't die from it. So it's obviously being undercounted in some ways, but overcounted in others.

That is basically what the article explains, yes.


But the first part of my post was meant as seperate. Though the article also delves into excess deaths at the end, that article is from months back.

(And the article is not a study, but more of a scientific news report)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 07:06:24 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:54:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 06:32:56 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:25:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:51:49 AM

This is one of the reasons why I am suspicious of the reported number of Covid deaths: My grandma's husband (they weren't really together anymore, but still married) had survived pneumonia followed by Covid over the last several months. He was in poor health, had dementia and just general old person issues, and honestly it sounds like it was for the best that he passed. He died of cardiac arrest on Sunday. He was marked down as a Covid death because he had had it, even though he had fully recovered.

On a worldwide basis, the death numbers are likely (significantly) under reported, actually (a recent estimate was by about 130k). If you look at the average number of deaths each year and look at how many excess deaths there are statistically thus far in 2020, the number of reported corona deaths does not match that. And that very much applies to the US as well. And this is all the while many other causes of death are historically low due to lockdowns (traffic, occupational etc.).




Also, here is an article from a while about assigning deaths:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/)

Scientific American is a well regarded source. As this is a scientific outlet, they will discuss/address different possibilities and viewpoints.

Yeah. I've seen that. But I've also heard many similar stories to this one where people are being marked down as Covid deaths who didn't die from it. So it's obviously being undercounted in some ways, but overcounted in others.

That is basically what the article explains, yes.


But the first part of my post was meant as seperate. Though the article also delves into excess deaths at the end, that article is from months back.

(And the article is not a study, but more of a scientific news report)

Thanks. Didn't notice the link below wasn't the study you mentioned above.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 07:24:50 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 07:06:24 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:54:53 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 06:32:56 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 23, 2020, 06:25:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:51:49 AM

This is one of the reasons why I am suspicious of the reported number of Covid deaths: My grandma's husband (they weren't really together anymore, but still married) had survived pneumonia followed by Covid over the last several months. He was in poor health, had dementia and just general old person issues, and honestly it sounds like it was for the best that he passed. He died of cardiac arrest on Sunday. He was marked down as a Covid death because he had had it, even though he had fully recovered.

On a worldwide basis, the death numbers are likely (significantly) under reported, actually (a recent estimate was by about 130k). If you look at the average number of deaths each year and look at how many excess deaths there are statistically thus far in 2020, the number of reported corona deaths does not match that. And that very much applies to the US as well. And this is all the while many other causes of death are historically low due to lockdowns (traffic, occupational etc.).




Also, here is an article from a while about assigning deaths:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/)

Scientific American is a well regarded source. As this is a scientific outlet, they will discuss/address different possibilities and viewpoints.

Yeah. I've seen that. But I've also heard many similar stories to this one where people are being marked down as Covid deaths who didn't die from it. So it's obviously being undercounted in some ways, but overcounted in others.

That is basically what the article explains, yes.


But the first part of my post was meant as seperate. Though the article also delves into excess deaths at the end, that article is from months back.

(And the article is not a study, but more of a scientific news report)

Thanks. Didn't notice the link below wasn't the study you mentioned above.

Yeah, my post was a bit unclear. I wasn't even referring to an actual study (I imagine numbers are still fluctuating, even retroactively attributed deaths can change depending on new knowledge).

As an example of what I was talking about, here is a news article by the Economist showing data per country (covid deaths vs excess deaths): https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 23, 2020, 09:45:51 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 05:57:56 AM

There are a handful of Dems that voted to end his powers, but not enough. I'll be curious if the mask mandate flips any more of them. It does seem that he likes the power. And that's not a good thing. It makes no sense to all for the mandate to be state wide. There are rural counties that have virtually no cases.

I also don't have any evidence for this (nor does anyone else really), but I'd be shocked if more than a small amount of the spread of Covid was coming from grocery stores, or Target, or things like that. I suspect the vast majority is coming from small gatherings of friends and family where people let their guard down. No one is going to start wearing masks at those things due to the new mandate.

Actually, to your last paragraph, they shot themselves in the foot a few press conferences ago where they said most cases seem to be coming from clusters of family gatherings, not public places, malls, restaurants, etc.

We’ll see what happens. I feel like the lady from Brainerd yesterday was only there to make the case for rural mask wearing. I talked to my grocery wholesale driver today who comes down from Wadena and he said everyone up there is tired of hearing about the virus and all the restrictions placed on them. I think they have three cases up there. They ain’t wearing masks. But then my hygienist said that up in Grand Marais, they are militant about coronavirus. Her dad got kicked out of the grocery store for going up a down one way aisle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 10:11:57 AM

I suspect touristy areas like Grand Marais are a little stricter on things since outsiders can bring it in. I was actually up there in early June for a long weekend and there were a lot of masks and stores requiring them. I was in some smaller towns a few weeks ago and almost no one had masks. I imagine they're pretty annoyed by this.

And honestly I'm pretty annoyed by it too. It just seems so unnecessary here at this point. I get places like Florida and Texas where it's running rampant. It's just kind of left me scratching my head wondering why now when things are getting better without the mandate. It seems like it's a power thing for Walz. I sincerely hope his emergency declaration gets overridden soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 23, 2020, 10:49:25 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 23, 2020, 10:11:57 AM

I suspect touristy areas like Grand Marais are a little stricter on things since outsiders can bring it in.

Hold on to that dream.  I live 20 minutes from Niagara Falls, and it's gonna be a shit show.  City Council has refused to mandate any mask usage, and with the next opening phase not even in full effect, the crowds have been out, with little/no masking, and virtually no physical distancing.  This was Tuesday:

(https://shawglobalnews.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/naigara-crowd.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&w=720&h=379&crop=1)

(https://www.chch.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Clifton-Hill.png)

:youfail:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 23, 2020, 10:51:30 AM

America

(https://i.imgur.com/zRm9vuC.png)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 23, 2020, 10:56:39 AM

For some reason, I think that the woman holding it in her hand is funny.  It's like "almost there... almost there....  impacted on the surface!"

(Though I have to say, there's photographic evidence that Canada ain't much better, since the "Rock'n'Bowl" is on the Canadian side, is it not?)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 23, 2020, 11:10:11 AM

And they wonder why... :justjen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 23, 2020, 11:14:45 AM

My brother-in-law Dave is making some much-needed extra cash as an Uber driver.  He picked up some smartass wearing a mask as an armband.  Dave told him to get out of the car.  The guy said "I'm wearing it, so I'm following the rules."  They argue a bit, but the car doesn't move.  Eventually, Dave pulls out his phone to call the cops.  Technically, some guy in your car without your permission is criminal trespassing or something, and this idiot is refusing to get out of the car, keeps claiming that it's his "right" to not wear a mask on his face blah blah blah.  Dave tells him that that's all fine and dandy, but get the fuck out of my car.  The implied Uber contract ends where the client isn't following the rules.  The real rules, not some moron's deliberate misinterpretation of them.

The guy eventually gets out, claims he's gonna leave a bad review (the horror!)  I know my brother-in-law, and he absolutely would have followed through with the phone call, and would have pressed charges if it came to that.  Also, Uber will side with their drivers on any of this shit, so I really don't understand what the guy was trying to accomplish here.  Just another idiot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on July 23, 2020, 11:21:16 AM

On and on we go. No end in sight.

I asked earlier in this thread if Covid could be considered one of the most impactful events in human history. The longer it goes, the more I think it will. Every aspect of our existence has been affected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 11:22:34 AM

Covidiots

I'm actually curious if the Uber business is still doing well, as someone who used it very often, I haven't taken one Uber ride since March 10th.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:24:32 AM

So if you saw data that showed if we all hunkered down for 4 weeks and wore masks whenever you go out that you could slow the spread by 70% and get back to normalcy quicker? Would you do it for your family? Fellow man? Country?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 11:26:57 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:24:32 AM

So if you saw data that showed if we all hunkered down for 4 weeks and wore masks whenever you go out that you could slow the spread by 70% and get back to normalcy quicker? Would you do it for your family? Fellow man? Country?

Fuck, I'd do it for myself.  I miss concerts, anything to get us back to seeing live music again. But yes, of course.  I mean, I've already done my part for 16 weeks of hunkering down, no big social gatherings, and mask anywhere in public near people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 23, 2020, 11:27:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:24:32 AM

So if you saw data that showed if we all hunkered down for 4 weeks and wore masks whenever you go out that you could slow the spread by 70% and get back to normalcy quicker? Would you do it for your family? Fellow man? Country?

We basically did that in CT for nearly 2 months and we're kicking ass compared to the rest of the country.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 23, 2020, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 23, 2020, 10:56:39 AM

(Though I have to say, there's photographic evidence that Canada ain't much better, since the "Rock'n'Bowl" is on the Canadian side, is it not?)

There's also this photographic evidence of the respective US and Cdn boats that tour the Falls.

(https://images.thestar.com/YXiANHN9rVoSwD3u3GluhScxSJg=/1200x1067/smart/filters:cb(1595457483949)/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/canada/2020/07/22/niagara-falls-cruise-photo-illustrates-stark-difference-in-covid-19-response-between-us-and-canada/cruises.jpg)

By and large, we are much better (110k cases vs 4M).  That doesn't mean we're completely without Covidiots. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 23, 2020, 11:35:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 11:22:34 AM

Covidiots

I'm actually curious if the Uber business is still doing well, as someone who used it very often, I haven't taken one Uber ride since March 10th.

My neighbor drives for Uber.  He's kind of aloof, and though he spent time in a branch of the military, you'd never know it.  He's a very nice, soft-spoken guy.

So in March/April/May, he said his Uber rides were non-existant, since nobody was going anywhere and most people were staying home.  Bars and restaurants were closed, nobody was traveling to the airport, etc.  He started working for Uber Eats and Grubhub, delivering food with his car instead.  I'm not sure how much money a person can make doing that, but whatever, it's his choice.  He seems determined to make a career of rideshare driving/delivering somehow.

Since late June, when Illinois moved to the current Phase 4, he's been out more, so I assume he's taking more Uber rides.  It's summer, it's been hot for about 4 weeks straight, and more people are going out drinking or to the airport again.  He'll come home and then disinfect the entire interior his car in the driveway. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:37:33 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 23, 2020, 11:27:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:24:32 AM

So if you saw data that showed if we all hunkered down for 4 weeks and wore masks whenever you go out that you could slow the spread by 70% and get back to normalcy quicker? Would you do it for your family? Fellow man? Country?

We basically did that in CT for nearly 2 months and we're kicking ass compared to the rest of the country.

So let me expand upon that - if DT said they were going to do an outdoor concert but they were going to socially distance and the audience would be required to wear masks. Would you not go because of the mask mandate?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 23, 2020, 11:40:25 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:24:32 AM

So if you saw data that showed if we all hunkered down for 4 weeks and wore masks whenever you go out that you could slow the spread by 70% and get back to normalcy quicker? Would you do it for your family? Fellow man? Country?

Volunarily?  Yep, In fact I did.  But the reality is, most folks don't have enough supplies or money to do that.  And that's why it just won't work society wide unfortunately.

If it was forced, we would have 10's of millions, if not many many more starve to death and or become homeless in that amount of time.

And Orbert, your brother-in-law is absolutely right.  It's HIS car!  What about his property rights?  If someone is going to champion rights, they need to be consistant.  It's guys like that that give people like me a bad name.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 23, 2020, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:37:33 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 23, 2020, 11:27:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 11:24:32 AM

So if you saw data that showed if we all hunkered down for 4 weeks and wore masks whenever you go out that you could slow the spread by 70% and get back to normalcy quicker? Would you do it for your family? Fellow man? Country?

We basically did that in CT for nearly 2 months and we're kicking ass compared to the rest of the country.

So let me expand upon that - if DT said they were going to do an outdoor concert but they were going to socially distance and the audience would be required to wear masks. Would you not go because of the mask mandate?

Are they playing in CT? I'd consider going if it was reduced audience capacity. If they're playing in FL or CA, not a chance. It'd have nothing to do the mask mandate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 12:40:05 PM

Speaking of concerts, they are doing drive in concerts now and there's one that interests me so I may go.  The rules say you have to wear a mask anytime outside your car (I'm guessing there will be concession stands and bathrooms, but I have not actually seen any of this for sure) and there's a warning that you agree to the rules of if you get sick, it's on you. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 23, 2020, 12:41:56 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 23, 2020, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 23, 2020, 10:56:39 AM

(Though I have to say, there's photographic evidence that Canada ain't much better, since the "Rock'n'Bowl" is on the Canadian side, is it not?)

There's also this photographic evidence of the respective US and Cdn boats that tour the Falls.

(https://images.thestar.com/YXiANHN9rVoSwD3u3GluhScxSJg=/1200x1067/smart/filters:cb(1595457483949)/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/canada/2020/07/22/niagara-falls-cruise-photo-illustrates-stark-difference-in-covid-19-response-between-us-and-canada/cruises.jpg)

By and large, we are much better (110k cases vs 4M).  That doesn't mean we're completely without Covidiots.

Well, I'd rather ride "The Maid of the Mist" than the "Hornblower" too.  :) :) :) :)

Though I'll bet the beer is better on the Hornblower.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 12:51:10 PM

Looks like they are wearing masks on the Maid too, which honestly isn't so bad being outdoors like that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on July 23, 2020, 03:19:45 PM

It's the end of all normal life what we have known if we don't stand up.Fascism is here once again with a new law with all kind of restrictions and who gives a minister freedom to surpass parlement .With a government who sends military to stop farmer protests, a government who starts riots with undercover police in a peacefull demonstration,beating elderly people demonstrating for freedom by riotpolice.And courts who forbid peacefull demonstrations for freedom.

TV who gives fakenews about coronadeaths and infections and promoting  masks,which is really stupid especially outside as it is inside

The Netherlands and hopefully the whole of europe will stand up against the vaccinations and covid pass funded by Bill Gates and the Rockefellers.As it will shut people out of certain rights.
You can laugh about it now,but it's the end of your freedom as you know it.
What we need is the Astonishing (people)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 23, 2020, 03:24:47 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5mLjKI968g

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on July 23, 2020, 03:29:31 PM

Never thought I'd see someone condemn vaccinations and police brutality against BLM protestors in the same post.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on July 23, 2020, 03:33:11 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 23, 2020, 10:51:30 AM

America

(https://i.imgur.com/zRm9vuC.png)

Yes, looks like downtown Nashville, my home town.  Man I hate those scooters. Suppose to not ride on the sidewalks, but most do. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 23, 2020, 03:36:00 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 23, 2020, 03:19:45 PM

The Netherlands and hopefully the whole of europe will stand up against the vaccinations and covid pass funded by Bill Gates and the Rockefellers.As it will shut people out of certain rights.

Yeah, that evil asshole that spent a lot of his personal fortune to fight infective diseases like Ebola and therefore, being invested into it, perfectly knew what he was talking about when he warned the world of the real dangers of a global pandemic...... which has been translated into "he was part of a conspiracy to spread it"  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 23, 2020, 04:09:49 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 11:22:34 AM

Covidiots

I'm actually curious if the Uber business is still doing well, as someone who used it very often, I haven't taken one Uber ride since March 10th.

Lyft is taking a beating. I work at their corporate HQ, and know that they've laid off over 2k workers, not drivers, office workers of varying sorts. They canned two of their contracts, janitorial and coffee/snacks, and our contract has taken over those duties and we've laid off about half of our staff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 23, 2020, 04:11:55 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on July 23, 2020, 03:36:00 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 23, 2020, 03:19:45 PM

The Netherlands and hopefully the whole of europe will stand up against the vaccinations and covid pass funded by Bill Gates and the Rockefellers.As it will shut people out of certain rights.

Yeah, that evil asshole that spent a lot of his personal fortune to fight infective diseases like Ebola and therefore, being invested into it, perfectly knew what he was talking about when he warned the world of the real dangers of a global pandemic...... which has been translated into "he was part of a conspiracy to spread it"  ::)

^^^^^
Word up!

I will be happy to compare Bill Gates "fascism" to current "miracan" administration "fascism".  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 04:19:14 PM

Quote from: lonestar on July 23, 2020, 04:09:49 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 11:22:34 AM

Covidiots

I'm actually curious if the Uber business is still doing well, as someone who used it very often, I haven't taken one Uber ride since March 10th.

Lyft is taking a beating. I work at their corporate HQ, and know that they've laid off over 2k workers, not drivers, office workers of varying sorts. They canned two of their contracts, janitorial and coffee/snacks, and our contract has taken over those duties and we've laid off about half of our staff.

Damn, I mean, it's not a surprise given the stay at home orders and stuff, but that sucks

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 23, 2020, 05:25:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 04:19:14 PM

Quote from: lonestar on July 23, 2020, 04:09:49 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 11:22:34 AM

Covidiots

I'm actually curious if the Uber business is still doing well, as someone who used it very often, I haven't taken one Uber ride since March 10th.

Lyft is taking a beating. I work at their corporate HQ, and know that they've laid off over 2k workers, not drivers, office workers of varying sorts. They canned two of their contracts, janitorial and coffee/snacks, and our contract has taken over those duties and we've laid off about half of our staff.

Damn, I mean, it's not a surprise given the stay at home orders and stuff, but that sucks

Yeah, it's about as predictable as anything could be. Just glad I'm at the top of my boss's favorite persons list, so I'm first to come back, last to go. Hoping they don't do another SIP here, but I think it's inevitable with the way cases are rising.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 23, 2020, 05:46:22 PM

Quote from: lonestar on July 23, 2020, 05:25:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 04:19:14 PM

Quote from: lonestar on July 23, 2020, 04:09:49 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 23, 2020, 11:22:34 AM

Covidiots

I'm actually curious if the Uber business is still doing well, as someone who used it very often, I haven't taken one Uber ride since March 10th.

Lyft is taking a beating. I work at their corporate HQ, and know that they've laid off over 2k workers, not drivers, office workers of varying sorts. They canned two of their contracts, janitorial and coffee/snacks, and our contract has taken over those duties and we've laid off about half of our staff.

Damn, I mean, it's not a surprise given the stay at home orders and stuff, but that sucks

Yeah, it's about as predictable as anything could be. Just glad I'm at the top of my boss's favorite persons list, so I'm first to come back, last to go. Hoping they don't do another SIP here, but I think it's inevitable with the way cases are rising.

Good for you Lonestar, that's a good position to be in, especially during a time like this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 23, 2020, 06:36:31 PM

Hey, who doesn't love Lonestar? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 23, 2020, 06:36:31 PM

Hey, who doesn't love Lonestar? :lol

Dark Helmet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 23, 2020, 07:21:00 PM

Quote from: Adami on July 23, 2020, 06:45:58 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 23, 2020, 06:36:31 PM

Hey, who doesn't love Lonestar? :lol

Dark Helmet.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/9d2yTr1P0RCjm/200w.webp?cid=ecf05e47xvx4z0vrsb3sxhypbscfzcvskbauy0l2zlzpj5fm&rid=200w.webp)



(my first DTF avatar  :laugh: )

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 23, 2020, 09:38:35 PM

I see your Schwartz is as big as mine.

Now let's see how well you handle it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

I wasn't talking about BLM or Antifa as you may wel call it those we're protected, it was the normal people who stood up for their rights as free people all colours and elderly.Who where kicked and beaten by stick.And there's nothing democratic on demonstrations being forbidden.


Bill gates is as much as a virologist than me being a policeofficer,he is some sort of business man family of the Rockefellers.Who makes money from this,imagine 7 billion vaccines sold.He's kicked out of India and you're being misled by the media.But go ahead take the vaccin and we'll wait and see what happens.I'll trust my immunesystem.
Amazing how Fauci and Obama where talking about a pandemic years ahead don't you think??Search for Event201   just before it all started.

And also the music business will be dead if they go on with these measures in a few months.Bands have hardly an income i can imagine.
They're killing businesses like Bars Restaurants and Venues,lots of them are closing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izcjr02I3gI

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 24, 2020, 03:13:11 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

Bill gates is as much as a virologist than me being a policeofficer

Of course he's not a virologist, he's someone who invested into fighting Ebola and therefore knew the real dangers of a possible pandemic.

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

But go ahead take the vaccin and we'll wait and see what happens.I'll trust my immunesystem.

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, well, cemeteries are full of no-vax people who "trusted their immune system" or thought the virus was a hoax.

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

Amazing how Fauci and Obama where talking about a pandemic years ahead don't you think??Search for Event201   just before it all started.

Amazing, isn't it? it's almost like if, dunno, people studied these things and realized the danger was real.

Just for the record, when the pandemic broke out, I did some reseach - it took me less than 15 minutes to come up with a lot of links from the last 10 years or so where the scientific consensus was unanimous about the dangers of another pandemic and that the causes were lack of hygiene, overpopulation and meddling with nature's ecosystem.

In your "searches" did you ever bother to go and read about the SARS? do you know the SARS was a coronavirus? reading about it is like seeing the current situation all over again: started in a wet market in China, first denied by the authorities, then spread all around and finally contained (because the spreading was not as large as this one".

"Amazing how Fauci knew it".... GOOD GRIEF. What are you gonna say next? let's assume that San Francisco gets destroyed by an earthquake, "amazing how people talked about it, they must be part of a conspiracy to destroy San Fransisco". NO, THEY AREN'T, WARNING ABOUT EARTHQUAKES WITH DECADES OF SCIENTIFIC DATA TO SUPPORT THE RISK IS NOT BEING PART OF A CONSPIRACY, AND NEITHER IS STUDYING THE POSSIBILE CAUSES OF A PANDEMIC TO REALIZE THAT IT COULD HAPPEN, WHICH ACTUALLY DID. Geeeez. Geeez geeez geeez.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 05:06:58 AM

(https://pronto-core-cdn.prontomarketing.com/2/wp-content/uploads/sites/1420/2016/11/Feed-Trolls.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 24, 2020, 06:02:47 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 05:06:58 AM

(https://pronto-core-cdn.prontomarketing.com/2/wp-content/uploads/sites/1420/2016/11/Feed-Trolls.jpg)

Yeah, amazing how so much wtf can be packed into one paragraph

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 24, 2020, 06:10:36 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

Amazing how Fauci and Obama where talking about a pandemic years ahead don't you think??Search for Event201   just before it all started.

I hope breathing is easier for you than critical thought

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 06:51:13 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

And also the music business will be dead if they go on with these measures in a few months.Bands have hardly an income i can imagine.
They're killing businesses like Bars Restaurants and Venues,lots of them are closing

I like conspiracy theories, but I'm not so sure about Obama/Fauci, but I'll look into it.  However, your last paragraph here is very true.  A lot of businesses, small and large, are closing down for good.  It is sad and very concerning.

That's why I believe that businesses should not have been shut down in the first place, but rather ask businesses to put measures in place to prevent the spread, which I believe they are very capable of doing.  The economic fallout would not have been near as bad if this had happened.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 24, 2020, 06:55:52 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 06:51:13 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

And also the music business will be dead if they go on with these measures in a few months.Bands have hardly an income i can imagine.
They're killing businesses like Bars Restaurants and Venues,lots of them are closing

I like conspiracy theories, but I'm not so sure about Obama/Fauci, but I'll look into it.  However, your last paragraph here is very true.  A lot of businesses, small and large, are closing down for good.  It is sad and very concerning.

That's why I believe that businesses should not have been shut down in the first place, but rather ask businesses to put measures in place to prevent the spread, which I believe they are very capable of doing.  The economic fallout would not have been near as bad if this had happened.

Are you completely blind to what's going on in CA, FL, and every other hot spot in the US right now? They had a TWO MONTH head start to prepare for this after seeing what Covid was doing to New England, and they still handled it worse than anywhere else on the planet. They're not capable of preventing shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 24, 2020, 06:58:01 AM

It's not that they're not capable. It's that most of them just don't care enough. They're there to make money and measures to prevent the spread of the virus will interfere with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 07:15:38 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 24, 2020, 06:58:01 AM

It's not that they're not capable. It's that most of them just don't care enough. They're there to make money and measures to prevent the spread of the virus will interfere with that.

The economic interests and public health interests of this pandemic are diametrically opposed to one another. Most decisions that benefit one, will by-and-large have a negative impact on the other.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 07:38:42 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 24, 2020, 06:55:52 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 06:51:13 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

And also the music business will be dead if they go on with these measures in a few months.Bands have hardly an income i can imagine.
They're killing businesses like Bars Restaurants and Venues,lots of them are closing

I like conspiracy theories, but I'm not so sure about Obama/Fauci, but I'll look into it.  However, your last paragraph here is very true.  A lot of businesses, small and large, are closing down for good.  It is sad and very concerning.

That's why I believe that businesses should not have been shut down in the first place, but rather ask businesses to put measures in place to prevent the spread, which I believe they are very capable of doing.  The economic fallout would not have been near as bad if this had happened.

Are you completely blind to what's going on in CA, FL, and every other hot spot in the US right now? They had a TWO MONTH head start to prepare for this after seeing what Covid was doing to New England, and they still handled it worse than anywhere else on the planet. They're not capable of preventing shit.

Not completely, but close  :lol

But seriously, I do see what you are talking about, but I believe the economic fallout (once this is all over) will prove to be more devistating than the virus was, and I mean that as a death count world wide.  America (and the west as a whole) is the bread basket of the world, and if the basket doesn't have any bread in it what happens to the rest of the world?  Honestly, the prospect of what is possible scares me.

Also, human behavior is an interesting thing.  People are far more likely to do a thing if it's presented to them as a logical and good idea rather than forcing it on them through law and dictate.  And when people are forced for too long the reaction is mass disobedience.

Millions of livelihoods have been ruined because of how this was handled.  And livelihoods speak louder than the virus because it means putting food on the table and a roof overhead.

I agree the virus numbers are staggering and the death toll is certainly nothing to shake a stick at and my heart goes out to all those who have gotten sick or lost loved ones, but there is another side of this that isn't getting near enough attention and I fear it will be too late before it does.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 24, 2020, 07:42:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 07:15:38 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 24, 2020, 06:58:01 AM

It's not that they're not capable. It's that most of them just don't care enough. They're there to make money and measures to prevent the spread of the virus will interfere with that.

The economic interests and public health interests of this pandemic are diametrically opposed to one another. Most decisions that benefit one, will by-and-large have a negative impact on the other.

Which is basically the entire ordeal behind this virus, see the analogy of a ship sailing in the middle of a straight with two dangerous reefs on each side. Maximum safety (total lockdown) and the economy dies, maximum support to the economy (everything going on like before) and you will never get rid of the infections. It's a royal pain to determine the precise course to balance both sides and avoid one disaster or the other.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 24, 2020, 07:46:57 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 24, 2020, 02:58:20 AM

I wasn't talking about BLM or Antifa as you may wel call it those we're protected, it was the normal people who stood up for their rights as free people all colours and elderly.Who where kicked and beaten by stick.And there's nothing democratic on demonstrations being forbidden.


Bill gates is as much as a virologist than me being a policeofficer,he is some sort of business man family of the Rockefellers.Who makes money from this,imagine 7 billion vaccines sold.He's kicked out of India and you're being misled by the media.But go ahead take the vaccin and we'll wait and see what happens.I'll trust my immunesystem.
Amazing how Fauci and Obama where talking about a pandemic years ahead don't you think??Search for Event201   just before it all started.

And also the music business will be dead if they go on with these measures in a few months.Bands have hardly an income i can imagine.
They're killing businesses like Bars Restaurants and Venues,lots of them are closing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izcjr02I3gI

I am someone who works somewhat close to the field, the subject of a next pandemic has been treated in several courses of both my Master's and Bachelor, as well as one of my internships, which was a project literally preparing for potential Influenza A pandemic (creating more effective vaccines through alternate technologies to create a more universal vaccine). The reason why people can talk about it ahead from the actual pandemic is that is has been a known statistical possibilty for decades. We have had several viruses emerge that were potentially very dangerous just the last decade, but none of them really had the properties to really harm the western world for a variety of reasons. It was only a matter of time that one hit closer to the western world, and this one did. Even animal populations have their own fair share of nasty viruses that have not jumped to humans, but obviously those don't get as much attention.

Furthermore, there are way, way too many people involved on a global basis for there to be any realistic ground for an actual conspiracy. This virus is a real problem, one scientists have warned us about for many years.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 07:54:20 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on July 24, 2020, 07:42:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 07:15:38 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 24, 2020, 06:58:01 AM

It's not that they're not capable. It's that most of them just don't care enough. They're there to make money and measures to prevent the spread of the virus will interfere with that.

The economic interests and public health interests of this pandemic are diametrically opposed to one another. Most decisions that benefit one, will by-and-large have a negative impact on the other.

Which is basically the entire ordeal behind this virus, see the analogy of a ship sailing in the middle of a straight with two dangerous reefs on each side. Maximum safety (total lockdown) and the economy dies, maximum support to the economy (everything going on like before) and you will never get rid of the infections. It's a royal pain to determine the precise course to balance both sides and avoid one disaster or the other.

This would burn itself out eventually just like every other pandemic in human history has. Of course the cost in lives would be high, but it bugs me that people act like this will never go away if we don't do something drastic. It absolutely would end naturally.

I honestly think most states have the balance between the two reefs going pretty well. Most things are open with some restrictions and cases are staying relatively in check. There are only a few states where things have gone off the rails. I'm not sure if the blame there is on government for not having restrictions, businesses for not following the restrictions, or individual people for taking unnecessary risks.

I tend to believe we should err on the side of allowing businesses and people to make their own choices and then live with the benefits or consequences of those choices. In this case, if those in the highest powers had played up the danger instead of downplaying it, people may have acted differently, but we'll never know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 08:10:35 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 07:54:20 AM

I tend to believe we should err on the side of allowing businesses and people to make their own choices and then live with the benefits or consequences of those choices. In this case, if those in the highest powers had played up the danger instead of downplaying it, people may have acted differently, but we'll never know.

This exactly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 24, 2020, 08:20:17 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 07:15:38 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 24, 2020, 06:58:01 AM

It's not that they're not capable. It's that most of them just don't care enough. They're there to make money and measures to prevent the spread of the virus will interfere with that.

The economic interests and public health interests of this pandemic are diametrically opposed to one another. Most decisions that benefit one, will by-and-large have a negative impact on the other.

I understand the general direction of the conversation, but I think it's not unfair to point out that it's far more complicated than just "economics versus public health".    California is one of the worst performers in COVID, and they have a well-established track record of fucking over economics in favor of even perceived (as opposed to real, tangible) public health.  So it's not just that.   I think there's something deeper (and more profound) going on here, even if I don't exactly know how to put it into words. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on July 24, 2020, 11:13:21 AM

Indeed. It is the ultimate no win situation for we humans.

Did some math today, after another 12,444 cases in FL. At this run rate, in 1,750 days, every person in FL will have been infected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 11:28:50 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 07:38:42 AM

But seriously, I do see what you are talking about, but I believe the economic fallout (once this is all over) will prove to be more devistating than the virus was, and I mean that as a death count world wide. 

Brother Lion, I say the below sincerely, with no snark or sense of attack.

I'm curious if there are any statistics on the deaths directly attributable to economic downturns?  Economies recover (see below); dead people do not.  No matter the 'toll' on humanity from recessions and depressions, I don't think the direct global death toll from economic downturns can compare to the direct global death toll from a pandemic.  That's my calculus.  And while you feel for the sick/dead and their loved ones, I feel for those that are impacted by the economic fallout - unemployed, losing their business, and all the associated struggles.  But they are still alive, and isn't that the ultimate benchmark?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/GDP_growth_1923-2009.jpg)
Wiki source - Annualized GDP change from 1923 to 2009. Data are annual from 1923 to 1946 and quarterly from 1947 to the second quarter of 2009.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 12:28:19 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 11:28:50 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 07:38:42 AM

But seriously, I do see what you are talking about, but I believe the economic fallout (once this is all over) will prove to be more devistating than the virus was, and I mean that as a death count world wide. 

Brother Lion, I say the below sincerely, with no snark or sense of attack.

I'm curious if there are any statistics on the deaths directly attributable to economic downturns?  Economies recover (see below); dead people do not.  No matter the 'toll' on humanity from recessions and depressions, I don't think the direct global death toll from economic downturns can compare to the direct global death toll from a pandemic.  That's my calculus.  And while you feel for the sick/dead and their loved ones, I feel for those that are impacted by the economic fallout - unemployed, losing their business, and all the associated struggles.  But they are still alive, and isn't that the ultimate benchmark?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/GDP_growth_1923-2009.jpg)
Wiki source - Annualized GDP change from 1923 to 2009. Data are annual from 1923 to 1946 and quarterly from 1947 to the second quarter of 2009.

No offense taken.  You are right economic downturns, at least here in the US, do not result in large death numbers.  However, that isn't the case in less rich, less developed parts of the world.  Take the 1918-1919 flu pandemic for instance.  The death estimates are all over the place.  Estimates have varied between 18 million all the way up to 100 million.  One of the proposed reasons for that was all the death in third world countries because of famines resulting from the virus and a general lack of food from the large economic downturn.  So researchers aren't sure how much of that death was the virus itself and how much was from the resulting economic downturn.  I got this info from a book called "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History", which is a REALLY great read by the way.

That's why I made the comment I did.  I know it isn't substantive proof, but that's why I am concerned.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 24, 2020, 12:30:01 PM

Quote from: emtee on July 24, 2020, 11:13:21 AM

Indeed. It is the ultimate no win situation for we humans.

Did some math today, after another 12,444 cases in FL. At this run rate, in 1,750 days, every person in FL will have been infected.

Herd immunity!   

(Sorry, I'll get my coat.  Tip your waitstaff!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 12:59:46 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 12:28:19 PM

No offense taken.  You are right economic downturns, at least here in the US, do not result in large death numbers.  However, that isn't the case in less rich, less developed parts of the world.  Take the 1918-1919 flu pandemic for instance.  The death estimates are all over the place.  Estimates have varied between 18 million all the way up to 100 million.  One of the proposed reasons for that was all the death in third world countries because of famines resulting from the virus and a general lack of food from the large economic downturn.  So researchers aren't sure how much of that death was the virus itself and how much was from the resulting economic downturn.  I got this info from a book called "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History", which is a REALLY great read by the way.

That's why I made the comment I did.  I know it isn't substantive proof, but that's why I am concerned.

Fair points, and unlike Stadler, I don't need hard undeniable proof to believe (in) something.  Anecdotal evidence is often sufficient (luv ya Bill  ;)).  In some regards, you're kinda proving my point though - the economic downturn 100 years ago was a result of the impact of the pandemic.  So, imo, if we don't control the pandemic first, the economy is screwed anyway.

Either way, it's all a holy clusterfuq.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 24, 2020, 02:59:44 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 12:59:46 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 12:28:19 PM

No offense taken.  You are right economic downturns, at least here in the US, do not result in large death numbers.  However, that isn't the case in less rich, less developed parts of the world.  Take the 1918-1919 flu pandemic for instance.  The death estimates are all over the place.  Estimates have varied between 18 million all the way up to 100 million.  One of the proposed reasons for that was all the death in third world countries because of famines resulting from the virus and a general lack of food from the large economic downturn.  So researchers aren't sure how much of that death was the virus itself and how much was from the resulting economic downturn.  I got this info from a book called "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History", which is a REALLY great read by the way.

That's why I made the comment I did.  I know it isn't substantive proof, but that's why I am concerned.

Fair points, and unlike Stadler, I don't need hard undeniable proof to believe (in) something.  Anecdotal evidence is often sufficient (luv ya Bill  ;)).  In some regards, you're kinda proving my point though - the economic downturn 100 years ago was a result of the impact of the pandemic.  So, imo, if we don't control the pandemic first, the economy is screwed anyway.

Either way, it's all a holy clusterfuq.

Well, I don't need hard undeniable proof to believe something; I believe in (a) God, and love.  I need hard undeniable proof if someone else wants to force me to accept their beliefs.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 24, 2020, 03:04:17 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 24, 2020, 02:59:44 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 12:59:46 PM

Quote from: Northern Lion on July 24, 2020, 12:28:19 PM

No offense taken.  You are right economic downturns, at least here in the US, do not result in large death numbers.  However, that isn't the case in less rich, less developed parts of the world.  Take the 1918-1919 flu pandemic for instance.  The death estimates are all over the place.  Estimates have varied between 18 million all the way up to 100 million.  One of the proposed reasons for that was all the death in third world countries because of famines resulting from the virus and a general lack of food from the large economic downturn.  So researchers aren't sure how much of that death was the virus itself and how much was from the resulting economic downturn.  I got this info from a book called "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History", which is a REALLY great read by the way.

That's why I made the comment I did.  I know it isn't substantive proof, but that's why I am concerned.

Fair points, and unlike Stadler, I don't need hard undeniable proof to believe (in) something.  Anecdotal evidence is often sufficient (luv ya Bill  ;)).  In some regards, you're kinda proving my point though - the economic downturn 100 years ago was a result of the impact of the pandemic.  So, imo, if we don't control the pandemic first, the economy is screwed anyway.

Either way, it's all a holy clusterfuq.

Well, I don't need hard undeniable proof to believe something; I believe in (a) God, and love.  I need hard undeniable proof if someone else wants to force me to accept their beliefs.   :)

We can prove love, we can't prove God.  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 24, 2020, 05:18:00 PM

https://www.newsweek.com/narcissists-psychopaths-face-mask-requirement-mandate-social-distancing-covid-19-coronavirus-1519732 (https://www.newsweek.com/narcissists-psychopaths-face-mask-requirement-mandate-social-distancing-covid-19-coronavirus-1519732)

I guess that explains some things

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 09:20:26 PM

To address and earlier point, there is a correlation between high unemployment and more deaths. I don't have a good enough connection right now to look it up. It's on the order of tens of thousands of deaths each year for every 10% of the population of the US that's unemployed. Large economic downturn definitely leads to loss of life on a pretty big scale. I've said it before... I don't envy those in power. It's a no win situation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 09:56:27 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 09:20:26 PM

To address and earlier point, there is a correlation between high unemployment and more deaths. I don't have a good enough connection right now to look it up. It's on the order of tens of thousands of deaths each year for every 10% of the population of the US that's unemployed. Large economic downturn definitely leads to loss of life on a pretty big scale. I've said it before... I don't envy those in power. It's a no win situation.

Considering in the US, health insurance is typically offered thru one’s employer, that would be logical. I wouldn’t dispute your first point, but as my good friend Stadler has reminded us all many times, correlation =/= causation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 25, 2020, 05:37:48 AM

I really can't judge what on the long term will work out the best. But even very fiscally conservative rulers usually in favour of the economy have imposed lockdowns for a reason. Hopefully we can all use all the experience to find a better balanced situation than a lockdown. But for that the people themselves also really need to work along.

I have witnessed what this does to a hospital and can tell that if you let things go it's course, it is not unlikely that deaths pile up much quicker due to them being overloaded and not just covid patient will not get the attention they need.

Also, I just hope we will have solutions before the new flu season hits, or that the flu is mild, because the flu had already done its thing when corona hit here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 25, 2020, 05:48:25 AM

Maybe the social distancing and major awareness about not having to stay close to each other and washing often your hands will have the unintended effect of slowing down the common flu as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 25, 2020, 06:01:21 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 09:56:27 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 09:20:26 PM

To address and earlier point, there is a correlation between high unemployment and more deaths. I don't have a good enough connection right now to look it up. It's on the order of tens of thousands of deaths each year for every 10% of the population of the US that's unemployed. Large economic downturn definitely leads to loss of life on a pretty big scale. I've said it before... I don't envy those in power. It's a no win situation.

Considering in the US, health insurance is typically offered thru one’s employer, that would be logical. I wouldn’t dispute your first point, but as my good friend Stadler has reminded us all many times, correlation =/= causation.

What I've read pretty conclusively proved it was a direct causation and not just a correlation. It's pretty obvious that losing a job leads to higher rates of depression and stress, both of which are widely known to  lead to health issues and suicide. Add in the loss of health insurance and it's hard to argue that it's not a direct cause of increased death.

I'm of course not trying to argue we do nothing and just keep the economy chugging. I'm just point out that people saying that they value life over money so we should shut everything down to save life don't get that there is a cost to life of shutting everything down again too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 25, 2020, 06:11:44 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 25, 2020, 06:01:21 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 09:56:27 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 09:20:26 PM

To address and earlier point, there is a correlation between high unemployment and more deaths. I don't have a good enough connection right now to look it up. It's on the order of tens of thousands of deaths each year for every 10% of the population of the US that's unemployed. Large economic downturn definitely leads to loss of life on a pretty big scale. I've said it before... I don't envy those in power. It's a no win situation.

Considering in the US, health insurance is typically offered thru one’s employer, that would be logical. I wouldn’t dispute your first point, but as my good friend Stadler has reminded us all many times, correlation =/= causation.

What I've read pretty conclusively proved it was a direct causation and not just a correlation. It's pretty obvious that losing a job leads to higher rates of depression and stress, both of which are widely known to  lead to health issues and suicide. Add in the loss of health insurance and it's hard to argue that it's not a direct cause of increased death.

I'm of course not trying to argue we do nothing and just keep the economy chugging. I'm just point out that people saying that they value life over money so we should shut everything down to save life don't get that there is a cost to life of shutting everything down again too.

I think that's one thing that maybe doesn't get taken into consideration as much as it should.  Depression, mental health and suicide, big factors of the pandemic.  I agree with Chad that you control the pandemic then you help overturn those things but I also have the belief that the aftermath could in some ways be more devastating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 25, 2020, 06:15:44 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 23, 2020, 10:51:30 AM

America

(https://i.imgur.com/zRm9vuC.png)

It's things like this that just make you wonder, why even fucking bother, or fucking care?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 25, 2020, 06:47:31 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 25, 2020, 06:01:21 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 09:56:27 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 09:20:26 PM

To address and earlier point, there is a correlation between high unemployment and more deaths. I don't have a good enough connection right now to look it up. It's on the order of tens of thousands of deaths each year for every 10% of the population of the US that's unemployed. Large economic downturn definitely leads to loss of life on a pretty big scale. I've said it before... I don't envy those in power. It's a no win situation.

Considering in the US, health insurance is typically offered thru one’s employer, that would be logical. I wouldn’t dispute your first point, but as my good friend Stadler has reminded us all many times, correlation =/= causation.

What I've read pretty conclusively proved it was a direct causation and not just a correlation. It's pretty obvious that losing a job leads to higher rates of depression and stress, both of which are widely known to  lead to health issues and suicide. Add in the loss of health insurance and it's hard to argue that it's not a direct cause of increased death.

I can’t successfully argue that point.  Though I do believe that the lives saved in taking measures to prevent the spread are far greater than lives that would be / are lost resulting from economic and employment calamity.  I hope that doesn’t sound callous ... any meaningful loss of life sucks monkey balls.

Again, no good solutions ... only trying to find the least worst ones.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 25, 2020, 03:24:12 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 25, 2020, 06:47:31 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 25, 2020, 06:01:21 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 24, 2020, 09:56:27 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 24, 2020, 09:20:26 PM

To address and earlier point, there is a correlation between high unemployment and more deaths. I don't have a good enough connection right now to look it up. It's on the order of tens of thousands of deaths each year for every 10% of the population of the US that's unemployed. Large economic downturn definitely leads to loss of life on a pretty big scale. I've said it before... I don't envy those in power. It's a no win situation.

Considering in the US, health insurance is typically offered thru one’s employer, that would be logical. I wouldn’t dispute your first point, but as my good friend Stadler has reminded us all many times, correlation =/= causation.

What I've read pretty conclusively proved it was a direct causation and not just a correlation. It's pretty obvious that losing a job leads to higher rates of depression and stress, both of which are widely known to  lead to health issues and suicide. Add in the loss of health insurance and it's hard to argue that it's not a direct cause of increased death.

I can’t successfully argue that point.  Though I do believe that the lives saved in taking measures to prevent the spread are far greater than lives that would be / are lost resulting from economic and employment calamity.  I hope that doesn’t sound callous ... any meaningful loss of life sucks monkey balls.

Again, no good solutions ... only trying to find the least worst ones.

Since we can't see the future, I think it's impossible to successfully argue either side of the argument.  It's all going to be based on personal opinion.  Both will have a devastating effect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 25, 2020, 08:32:34 PM

A prolonged severe economic depression could end up costing more lives. But that's an unknown. What's known now is that Covid is costing a lot of lives, so we should take reasonable steps to stop it without completely shutting down the economy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 25, 2020, 08:35:56 PM

True enough.  Factually, we know the COVID pandemic has directly killed almost 650,000 people in 6 months already. I’d never heard that an economic downturn - say the a Great Recession in ‘08 - had that kind of impact.  Though, this downturn has the makings of being much bigger. 

Ninja’d by the Lord.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on July 25, 2020, 08:47:34 PM

Well, the economy is in a way shutting us down.  Tomorrow we were heading north to revisit Cooperstown and the baseball HOF again because the Hall reopened three weeks ago.  Well, my state's residents are now on the restricted travel list.  We thought perhaps that was just for air travel.  We were notified today by the inn that we would not allowed to stay there. 

So, a couple of days there, one in Vermont, and one in Pennsylvania on the way back are all toast.  After all that we had planned for the year being cancelled, this was going to be our one trip and getaway for the year.  Hell, we can't even stay in West Virginia as an alternative.   :censored 

 ......I'd started to write this hours ago before we did succeed on an altenative.....a few days in Rocky Gap.  We'll see something new, save a bunch of driving time, and I'll finally get to play nine holes of golf.  (I'm sure my rust will cause me to swear more that morning than I did when our plans went up in smoke).  It'll be the first time either one of us has been more than twenty miles away from home all year. 

Our state numbers are up, but I still see all the pix from Ocean City with maybe  5% wearing masks on the boardwalk.  That street corner prior says it all as to people taking this seriously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 26, 2020, 05:47:15 AM

Watching the news and saw a few videos of people getting refused entry to shops because they are not wearing a mask in Melbourne and the people flaring up saying, 'it's our right that we don't have to wear a mask,' and shit like 'you can't make me, it's not a law.'  Fucking diabolical.  What the fuck is wrong with people, the human race is just a joke sometimes.

I feel for those shop assistants, even the very first day that I reopened a few weeks ago now, I served a guy and gave him the spiel of social distancing and whatnot and he stands up to me and goes, 'where's it written down that we have to social distance and I can't chat to other people,' you can't force me.'  I reply with, 'mate, it's just conditions of entry, we are open operating under a strict COVID plan, no I can't make you but I can show you where it's written down.  I can send it to you if you like.  Bascially, you don't comply, we are breaching our restrictions and could close.  We are only open because we are operating under these restrictions.'  He kept going with me for fucks sake.

It's funny, it's get to a point after years of dealing with people that you don't even blink an eye.  I just shut him down and told him, if he wants to carry on and not co-operate, he can piss off.  He backed down eventually and goes, 'I'm just trying to make a point.'  Told him I'm not the man to make the point too.  People complaining, not wanting to register to enter, not wanting to temperature check, fuck it's tough for those working with public during this.  Not to mention the current contact and potential health risks which you can't avoid becuase you have to be with the public.  One woman didn't want to get temperature checked last week and said, 'I shouldn't have to do this everytime I come in, you don't know what that laser could be doing inside my head.'  I replied with, 'Ma'am, I'm sorry, but if we don't do this, I think COVID would create more problems in your head than this laser.'  :lol

Anyway, dunno why I posted that, just these cunt head people on the news piss me off cause I know what these fellas put up with from fucking shit head people.  It's not worth the pay we get, but obviously hands are tied at the moment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on July 26, 2020, 06:29:51 AM

It's insane how stubborn and hard headed people, it's difficult to wrap my brain around how people are choosing the mask issue to be the cross that they die on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 26, 2020, 07:12:23 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on July 26, 2020, 06:29:51 AM

It's insane how stubborn and hard headed people, it's difficult to wrap my brain around how people are choosing the mask issue to be the cross that they die on.

Right!?!?

Kade, that’s fuckin brutal. Literally, I have no words.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 26, 2020, 07:15:11 AM

There was some mong rube outside Walmart yesterday with his phone out yelling about how he had to wear his democrap mask in the store

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on July 26, 2020, 08:32:17 AM

Quote from: wolfking on July 26, 2020, 05:47:15 AM

One woman didn't want to get temperature checked last week and said, 'I shouldn't have to do this everytime I come in, you don't know what that laser could be doing inside my head.'

Okay what the hell :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 26, 2020, 08:35:29 AM

The virus in America truly has become politicized.  If you wear it you're a library.  If you don't,  your a gun toadie, orange loving loud mouth.

Not that you can be either and have the opposite views.  No Democrat could be against masks and no Republican could be for masks.

It's so demoralizing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 26, 2020, 09:17:30 AM

How does it make you a library?

I’ve never heard that before.

“You motherfucking library!!”

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 26, 2020, 09:34:36 AM

Library  :lol

I fucking love you Joe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM

I was a library for 5 years and I find that offensive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 26, 2020, 10:18:44 AM

Ha!  I typed out a libtard.

Fucking auto correct. lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 26, 2020, 10:21:02 AM

Watch out for the gun toadies  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 26, 2020, 10:24:49 AM

The toadies!  I remember that song, Possum Kingdom from the 90s

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 26, 2020, 10:47:16 AM

GIVE IT UP TOOOOOO MEEEEEE!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on July 26, 2020, 12:01:54 PM

Now I want to start a PR thread titled Libraries VS Gun Toadies....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on July 26, 2020, 12:18:24 PM

Quote from: lonestar on July 26, 2020, 12:01:54 PM

Now I want to start a PR thread titled Libraries VS Gun Toadies....

It is fitting. Lol.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on July 26, 2020, 03:11:29 PM

I understand the anti-mask thing. What I don't understand is why these people believe they have a right to not wear a mask and enter a place of business that requires one wear a mask. Freedom isn't free. Shop somewhere else or shop online. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 26, 2020, 03:25:52 PM

Quote from: Evermind on July 26, 2020, 08:32:17 AM

Quote from: wolfking on July 26, 2020, 05:47:15 AM

One woman didn't want to get temperature checked last week and said, 'I shouldn't have to do this everytime I come in, you don't know what that laser could be doing inside my head.'

Okay what the hell :lol

100%. I couldn't believe the conversation I was having.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 26, 2020, 03:27:30 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 26, 2020, 09:17:30 AM

How does it make you a library?

I’ve never heard that before.

“You motherfucking library!!”

I'd rather be a table.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 07:32:28 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on July 26, 2020, 08:35:29 AM

The virus in America truly has become politicized.  If you wear it you're a library.  If you don't,  your a gun toadie, orange loving loud mouth.

Not that you can be either and have the opposite views.  No Democrat could be against masks and no Republican could be for masks.

It's so demoralizing.

I'm with you, mansion.  Completely.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 27, 2020, 07:33:24 AM

Quote from: Herrick on July 26, 2020, 03:11:29 PM

I understand the anti-mask thing. What I don't understand is why these people believe they have a right to not wear a mask and enter a place of business that requires one wear a mask. Freedom isn't free. Shop somewhere else or shop online. 

Yeah, I'm sort of anti-mask. Really just anti government mask mandate, not so much anti-mask in general. But I support a business's right to require a mask. I don't get the people who hassle the person at the entry. That business is expressing their freedom to make requirements to enter their business, same as requiring shoes and shirts. If you're against a government mask mandate, go protest at your local government center, call your representatives, etc. If you're against masks in general, like you said, shop elsewhere or online.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 27, 2020, 07:43:09 AM

Sorry but it seems a bit weird to me to be against or not a mask depending on wether it's the government to impose it.... wouldn't it be a bit like saying "Yeah, I can see why seatbelts are useful, but I don't like that the government makes them required by law"...?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 07:50:13 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on July 27, 2020, 07:43:09 AM

Sorry but it seems a bit weird to me to be against or not a mask depending on wether it's the government to impose it.... wouldn't it be a bit like saying "Yeah, I can see why seatbelts are useful, but I don't like that the government makes them required by law"...?

For the LIFE of me, I cannot understand why the seatbelt is used as if it's perfectly acceptable.   I actually DO see why seatbelts are useful, but I DON'T like that government makes them a requirement.   I personal can't stand them, seatbelts, and if it wasn't for my wife and daughter hounding me on them I would wear them a lot less than I do now (though out of respect - and like a mask - I almost always wear them when driving in someone else's car).   I'd say about two-thirds of the time I've disconnected the seatbelt warnings in my cars.   Yea, it IS about the government mandate.   We went through this with motorcycle helmets as well (at least in Connecticut).   

But - and I suppose this is where the analogy is a good one - I also recognize the sovereignty of the government.  We voted, we went through the process, and we have seatbelt laws.  So if or when I ever get stopped and don't get the belt hooked up surrepticiously before the cop gets to my window, I accept the fine for what it is and pay it.  It was MY CHOICE, MY ACTIONS that led to that fine, no one else's, as the law is the law.   We haven't gotten to that point yet with masks, though here in Connecticut we're getting very close.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 27, 2020, 08:00:30 AM

I never cared for the seatbelt analogy because the seat belt protects YOU but the mask protects OTHERS.  And that is a huge difference as some people can't grasp the idea that something they are doing may not make a difference for them, but could for others. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 27, 2020, 08:38:22 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on July 27, 2020, 07:43:09 AM

Sorry but it seems a bit weird to me to be against or not a mask depending on wether it's the government to impose it.... wouldn't it be a bit like saying "Yeah, I can see why seatbelts are useful, but I don't like that the government makes them required by law"...?

I err on the side of allowing people to make their own choices and live with the benefits or consequences of their actions. I think businesses and people should be allowed to make their own decisions. I don't think it should be the governments role to protect us from ourselves. I think there are other ways to encourage seatbelt or mask use without mandating it and still allowing people to have the freedom to make their own choices. For example, allowing businesses to require a mask if they want to. You are then free to find a different store if you don't want to wear a mask. For seatbelts, I'd be perfectly fine if you were automatically liable for your own injuries if you choose not to wear a seatbelt regardless of who is at fault in an accident. But you still have the freedom in that scenario to make your own choice.

Quote from: cramx3 on July 27, 2020, 08:00:30 AM

I never cared for the seatbelt analogy because the seat belt protects YOU but the mask protects OTHERS.  And that is a huge difference as some people can't grasp the idea that something they are doing may not make a difference for them, but could for others. 

I think nearly everyone gets that masks are supposed to protect others. My impression is that for many, this is not just about a mask, but the perceived beginning of a sequence of government intervention that will continue to erode people's abilities to make their own choices and set their own risk tolerance. So they don't feel that they are pushing back against just a mask, but against what's coming next. I personally don't think masks are a big deal, but I do think that forcing people to use a location tracking app or some of the other things people out there are suggesting to combat Covid is taking it too far. Others choose to take a stand now with masks, I'm personally choosing to let this go and take a stand against each thing as it comes, because it may not go any farther. I also don't think it's unreasonable to feel like it's not my responsibility to protect others against every unlikely scenario in which I might inadvertently cause them harm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on July 27, 2020, 08:57:24 AM

I'd be dead if it wasn't for the seat belt. My car had one of those alarm things and it trained me to wear one when I never did. I had been ticketed in the past for not wearing one. When I had my accident, I was in a vehicle without a seat belt alarm but had become so accustomed to wearing it that I had it on. Had I not, I would've been thrown who knows how far out of my windshield due to the impact of the accident.

I lost both my Aunt and Uncle a few years ago due to them being anti-seat belt. They were in an accident very similar to mine. My Uncle died instantly and my Aunt was thrown out of the car and into the ditch.

I went from 100% against to 100% for. I get the seat belt argument completely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 27, 2020, 09:06:12 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 27, 2020, 08:57:24 AM

I'd be dead if it wasn't for the seat belt. My car had one of those alarm things and it trained me to wear one when I never did. I had been ticketed in the past for not wearing one. When I had my accident, I was in a vehicle without a seat belt alarm but had become so accustomed to wearing it that I had it on. Had I not, I would've been thrown who knows how far out of my windshield due to the impact of the accident.

I lost both my Aunt and Uncle a few years ago due to them being anti-seat belt. They were in an accident very similar to mine. My Uncle died instantly and my Aunt was thrown out of the car and into the ditch.

I went from 100% against to 100% for. I get the seat belt argument completely.

For the record, I wear a seat belt 100% of the time and think it's pretty foolish not to. I just don't necessarily agree with the government forcing people to wear one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 27, 2020, 09:14:12 AM

Not wearing a seat belt is insane.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 27, 2020, 09:29:52 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 27, 2020, 09:14:12 AM

Not wearing a seat belt is insane.

Yeah. In the brief instances where I don’t have mine on you just get this ‘feeling’ and realize it and then snap it on. It’s really second nature. I don’t think there is really a good reason one could point to to say you shouldn’t wear one?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 27, 2020, 09:44:25 AM

My seat belt literally saved my life when I flipped my Mustang back in '09 and had to crawl out of it upside down. I won't even drive a car around to the back lot of the shop here without putting it on. It's second nature at this point to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 27, 2020, 09:49:11 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 27, 2020, 09:29:52 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 27, 2020, 09:14:12 AM

Not wearing a seat belt is insane.

Yeah. In the brief instances where I don’t have mine on you just get this ‘feeling’ and realize it and then snap it on. It’s really second nature. I don’t think there is really a good reason one could point to to say you shouldn’t wear one?

Everyone I've ever known who doesn't wear a seatbelt always cites 'that one guy' they knew who definitely only survived a crash because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Ignoring, obviously, that they only know one guy with that story because the rest of them are fucking dead.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 27, 2020, 10:01:24 AM

All true.  Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that it's a poor analogy.  Seat belts are meant to protect you; face masks are to protect others.  People will usually do something if it protects them, but it's far less common to do something to protect others.  But we've been over and over this, and human nature has not changed significantly during the time we've been discussing it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 10:21:48 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 27, 2020, 09:49:11 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 27, 2020, 09:29:52 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 27, 2020, 09:14:12 AM

Not wearing a seat belt is insane.

Yeah. In the brief instances where I don’t have mine on you just get this ‘feeling’ and realize it and then snap it on. It’s really second nature. I don’t think there is really a good reason one could point to to say you shouldn’t wear one?

Everyone I've ever known who doesn't wear a seatbelt always cites 'that one guy' they knew who definitely only survived a crash because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Ignoring, obviously, that they only know one guy with that story because the rest of them are fucking dead.

Me.  I hit a tree head on at 60 mph and walked away.  No seatbelt.   I get it. I'm not a dumb guy, I know the stats I know the science.  I DO wear it more often than not (see that part about "wife" and "daughter", the two people in the entire world who mean the most to me).  I'm just making the point - similar to Lordxizor - that it's ultimately my risk-reward decision to make, even with the potential impacts to others (via insurance, via the accident if they're in it too, public policy).  Provide me the data I can use to make an informed decision.   I'm not a fan of Government  - as someone else said - "protecting us from ourselves".  Even if we collectively decide that IS their role, there are so many other places they could be delivering the goods (how about starting with social media?  The myriad of things that are causing our national insecurity and depression?  The increasing partisanship of our political discourse?   If you're going to fine me for not wearing a seatbelt out of "policy interests", then how about fining these assholes on social media that think it's proper political discourse to mock, ridicule, shame, and embarass other people simply because they disagree politically?)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 27, 2020, 10:53:45 AM

I see it more as the need for laws, rules and customs for the common good.

What are the speed limits for the highway? are they ok? are they too low? are they too high? not all drivers are the same, could an experienced driver in full control of his vehicle and on an empty road go way past the speed limit without being a danger for himself or the others? absolutely yes.

But how do you judge "experienced driver"? who's to say who can drive at 180 KM/h (sorry you poor guys living in a non-metric world, do the math  ;D) and who's not? so we cut it short, the speed limits are the same for everyone and everyone obeys them.

I apply the same concept to a lot of other stuff, masks included. The scientific community advised for the use of masks, I use masks until it's mandatory to, I'd rather suffer a tiny little with a mask on rather than suffering A LOT while stuck facing down in intensive care for 8 hours while I have difficulties breathing - or condemning someone to that fate because I'm asyntomatic and I don't even know it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 11:00:57 AM

I view speed limits differently, though.   I don't necessarily agree with the "fines" and what not, but in one sense, "speed limits" are a design manual for the roads.  It's as informational as it is restrictive.  There is science there; warning distances, stopping distances, visibility, etc.   I follow them sometimes - usually around town - and don't other times - if you see some guy driving by all you assholes hogging the left lane, at 80-ish, shaking his head, that might be me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 27, 2020, 11:05:50 AM

We also don't have a right to drive, but we have a right to live.  I think that plays a role in this comparison between seatbelts and masks.  We all agree to the rules of the road when we get into a car, but maybe the government needs to step in to protect people's right to live by making grocery shopping a safe environment. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on July 27, 2020, 11:33:21 AM

Speaking of speed limits, it seems the Cannonball Run record has been broken twice so far this year. The decrease in highway traffic has provided an opportunity to set some speed records. Pretty sure there are also fewer cops out on the interstates running radar. While not currently official, the most recent was sub-twenty six hours, which means an average speed of 120+ MPH. There's also been at least one more attempt that came five minutes shy of the the then record, and a few oddballs (fastest time in a diesel, fastest solo trip, etc.).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 27, 2020, 11:42:30 AM

Someone at work mentioned that to me since I had been constantly breaking my own record for commute to work, but it seems the cops are all back out now and pulling people over.  My cop friend said he went 3 months without pulling a single person over.  But here in NJ, it seems like they are starting to enforce again plus the traffic is starting to pick back up so it's not quite so easy to go 90+

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on July 27, 2020, 11:56:18 AM

Quote from: El Barto on July 27, 2020, 11:33:21 AM

Speaking of speed limits, it seems the Cannonball Run record has been broken twice so far this year. The decrease in highway traffic has provided an opportunity to set some speed records. Pretty sure there are also fewer cops out on the interstates running radar. While not currently official, the most recent was sub-twenty six hours, which means an average speed of 120+ MPH. There's also been at least one more attempt that came five minutes shy of the the then record, and a few oddballs (fastest time in a diesel, fastest solo trip, etc.).

I never read about these runs before. Kinda crazy. I just read this article about the guy who made the new record.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a32917037/a-man-drove-solo-across-america-in-25-hours-55-minutes-in-a-rental-mustang/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on July 27, 2020, 12:05:12 PM

Quote from: wolfking on July 26, 2020, 03:27:30 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 26, 2020, 09:17:30 AM

How does it make you a library?

I’ve never heard that before.

“You motherfucking library!!”

I'd rather be a table.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adyC404_gEk

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 27, 2020, 12:06:58 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 10:21:48 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 27, 2020, 09:49:11 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 27, 2020, 09:29:52 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 27, 2020, 09:14:12 AM

Not wearing a seat belt is insane.

Yeah. In the brief instances where I don’t have mine on you just get this ‘feeling’ and realize it and then snap it on. It’s really second nature. I don’t think there is really a good reason one could point to to say you shouldn’t wear one?

Everyone I've ever known who doesn't wear a seatbelt always cites 'that one guy' they knew who definitely only survived a crash because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Ignoring, obviously, that they only know one guy with that story because the rest of them are fucking dead.

Me.  I hit a tree head on at 60 mph and walked away.  No seatbelt.   I get it. I'm not a dumb guy, I know the stats I know the science.  I DO wear it more often than not (see that part about "wife" and "daughter", the two people in the entire world who mean the most to me).  I'm just making the point - similar to Lordxizor - that it's ultimately my risk-reward decision to make, even with the potential impacts to others (via insurance, via the accident if they're in it too, public policy).  Provide me the data I can use to make an informed decision.   I'm not a fan of Government  - as someone else said - "protecting us from ourselves".  Even if we collectively decide that IS their role, there are so many other places they could be delivering the goods (how about starting with social media?  The myriad of things that are causing our national insecurity and depression?  The increasing partisanship of our political discourse?   If you're going to fine me for not wearing a seatbelt out of "policy interests", then how about fining these assholes on social media that think it's proper political discourse to mock, ridicule, shame, and embarass other people simply because they disagree politically?)

If you understand the risks, and you get tossed. That's all on you. Not my problem and I won't be sad because you understood the risk and still did it anyways. I will be sad because your gone though.  That's all your saying right?

Now me, I wear a seatbelt because it's just simple logic of big machine, fragile brittle human, moving at a speed...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 27, 2020, 12:11:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 10:21:48 AM

Me.  I hit a tree head on at 60 mph and walked away.  No seatbelt.   

Airbag?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 27, 2020, 12:24:07 PM

It's also worth noting that if you're in a collision with another vehicle and aren't wearing a seat belt and are subsequently hurled through your windshield, your flailing likely-corpse becomes a projectile that can be injurious and potentially lethal to others.

Though obviously this scenario is less likely than transmitting corona to others by not wearing a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 12:40:38 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 27, 2020, 12:11:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 10:21:48 AM

Me.  I hit a tree head on at 60 mph and walked away.  No seatbelt.   

Airbag?

Nope; I left the road and when I did, I lost steering and brakes, so I guess I rolled to the right.  I actually almost died not because of the impact of the crash, but because the stick shift arm "stabbed" me in the right side of the chest.   I don't know if it hit rib or what but while I broke a rib on that side I didn't have any more serious damage.   Broke my nose, banged up my face a little, sustained a concussion, but I walked away.   

When the police came, I was sitting on the curb (I was two houses up the street from my house; I walked to my house to get my dad and we went back to the car) and the cop asked where the driver was.  I said "me" and he told the ambulance driver I was not coherent and went looking in the car.  (All this is from my dad who, like I said, was there quickly.)  I was taken to the hospital, but other than a few wisps of memory at the scene, almost all of what I've told you is after-the-fact information.  I remember very little from the scene, and I have no recollection of anything else - ambulance, hospital - until late the next day when my dad gave me a little pep talk (I say that to be funny; he was gracious and understanding about the whole thing). 

I make no light of this.  I realize I dodged a huge bullet, and it's not like I've completely ignored the lesson.  I try to drive appropriately for the roads and conditions I'm in (I was speeding on a road that didn't warrant it, in conditions that didn't warrant it), and most of the speeding I cop to is with no one else in the car.  I recognize I have a responsibility. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 27, 2020, 01:26:55 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 27, 2020, 12:11:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 10:21:48 AM

Me.  I hit a tree head on at 60 mph and walked away.  No seatbelt.   

Airbag?

A hot airbag.  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 27, 2020, 02:47:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on July 27, 2020, 09:29:52 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 27, 2020, 09:14:12 AM

Not wearing a seat belt is insane.

Yeah. In the brief instances where I don’t have mine on you just get this ‘feeling’ and realize it and then snap it on. It’s really second nature. I don’t think there is really a good reason one could point to to say you shouldn’t wear one?

I didn't used to wear one early on when I got my first car several decades ago.  Since then, it's like 2nd nature.  Can't imagine not wearing it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 27, 2020, 05:20:40 PM

Warning: Graphic Content!

When I took driver's ed, our teacher told us a story about this woman who made sure her young daughter was wearing her seat belt, but she (the mom) did not herself wear her seatbelt.  She got in an accident, T-boned, which sent her sliding across the front seat with enough force to crush and kill her daughter.  She just ended up with some cracked ribs, as her daughter had absorbed most of the impact.

Pretty effing gruesome, which is probably why that story has stuck with me all these years.  So sometimes seatbelts actually can be to protect others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 28, 2020, 12:57:05 AM

Totally off topic at this point, but if it was up to me, during a driver's licence school I would make it mandatory to spend at least one night on the road with ambulances and first aid. I think every young kid about to take a driver's licence should see with his or her own eyes what happens if you drive drunk or carelessly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 28, 2020, 03:28:08 AM

Even when something is only there to physically protect yourself, when something happens to someone, that affects others in a major way as well. And not just emotionally. Each traffic death in a nation costs a lot (and a lot more than a heavily wounded person in most instances). A source on this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925753518311500?via%3Dihub (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925753518311500?via%3Dihub).

And just like seatbelts, if people refuse to take easy and basic measurements against this virus, it is society as a whole that suffers the consequences.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on July 28, 2020, 06:12:58 AM

Isn't Troll alert namecalling ??


Anyway you've seen the coverage of the U.S Frontline Docters SCOTUS press conference about misinformation ?? More Docters who dare to speak up like a few others.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/09K3kIwzeewO/?fbclid=IwAR0fWRDQVw2cVkgSRUEpRx9NFHFGTqWernwDoHKkT8RO0nEOLHyjAT3iL9E

Some people really like the comfort of obeying their government and point their fingers on anyone who dares to think different.We have and have had them here too in WW2 they where called NSB.
Our freedom is taken away bit by bit,dictatorship on ít's way.
A curfew in Antwerp Belgium is in progress now from 23.30 to 06.00  how's that for some freedom?
The coronavirus seems hardly any deadlier than an average flu season. I understand that it's a bitter pill to swallow knowing you believed the news.But i'll just wait and hopefully the tide's turning soon

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 28, 2020, 06:15:28 AM

Oh, how I wish for you to say those things face to face with people from the Bergamo province in northern Italy, where the deaths were so many that the army had to carry away the coffins because the local cemeteries were full.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 28, 2020, 06:24:47 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on July 28, 2020, 06:15:28 AM

Oh, how I wish for you to say those things face to face with people from the Bergamo province in northern Italy, where the deaths were so many that the army had to carry away the coffins because the local cemeteries were full.

I overheard one of the local morticians discussing this virus and saying it's overblown because only a couple people who have died here (our county) MIGHT have had it, and I kept thinking about Italy. Really boggles the mind

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 28, 2020, 06:26:57 AM

Covid is certainly deadlier than an average flu season for the elderly in particular. How much more so will probably never really be known as we'll never have complete data. I recently saw the death rate estimate between 0.3-1.2% with the spread largely due to the unknown number of asymptomatic or mild cases that were never identified. An average flu season has a death rate of around 0.1% with a bad season being a little higher. Basically at best, Covid is a little deadlier than a really bad flu year. At worst it's up to 10 times more deadly than a bad flu year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 28, 2020, 06:28:34 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 28, 2020, 06:24:47 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on July 28, 2020, 06:15:28 AM

Oh, how I wish for you to say those things face to face with people from the Bergamo province in northern Italy, where the deaths were so many that the army had to carry away the coffins because the local cemeteries were full.

I overheard one of the local morticians discussing this virus and saying it's overblown because only a couple people who have died here (our county) MIGHT have had it, and I kept thinking about Italy. Really boggles the mind

I'm curious what made Italy so bad? I know they had a high population of elderly, who are at very high risk. It was also early on in the pandemic which meant a worse understanding of how to treat patients and control spread. It seems like we haven't seen that level of death anywhere else.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 28, 2020, 06:36:08 AM

Yeah, elder population was a factor, also we were the first western country hit and so there was a moment of uncertainty. Throw in also a very high population density, and Milan - and half of Lombardy by proxy - being a very busy hub of comunications, commerce and basically everything else so a lot of people were travelling all around.

Also, a major horrible decision was made about not closing the hospital where one of the first infections happened, so that contributed to the virus spreading very fast in that specific Bergamo zone, if it was quarantined straight after the very first few cases, maybe the death toll would be lower.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 28, 2020, 06:51:26 AM

Quote from: TAC on July 27, 2020, 01:26:55 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 27, 2020, 12:11:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 27, 2020, 10:21:48 AM

Me.  I hit a tree head on at 60 mph and walked away.  No seatbelt.   

Airbag?

A hot airbag.  ;D

Sucks for you guys but will protect me in a crash!  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 28, 2020, 07:29:28 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 28, 2020, 06:24:47 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on July 28, 2020, 06:15:28 AM

Oh, how I wish for you to say those things face to face with people from the Bergamo province in northern Italy, where the deaths were so many that the army had to carry away the coffins because the local cemeteries were full.

I overheard one of the local morticians discussing this virus and saying it's overblown because only a couple people who have died here (our county) MIGHT have had it, and I kept thinking about Italy. Really boggles the mind

Considering we have a funeral director right here ate DTF as a mod, I'm sure we could get a more accurate 1st hand perspective - and he posted as such earlier in the outbreak about how bad it was in his area.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 28, 2020, 07:29:55 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 28, 2020, 06:26:57 AM

Covid is certainly deadlier than an average flu season for the elderly in particular. How much more so will probably never really be known as we'll never have complete data. I recently saw the death rate estimate between 0.3-1.2% with the spread largely due to the unknown number of asymptomatic or mild cases that were never identified. An average flu season has a death rate of around 0.1% with a bad season being a little higher. Basically at best, Covid is a little deadlier than a really bad flu year. At worst it's up to 10 times more deadly than a bad flu year.

The reported 0.1% fatality rate of Influenza is based on estimates of symptomatic cases, rather than a true infection death rate. So taking into account all the asymptomatic cases is not a fair comparison, especially as the scope of covid testing is unprecidented.

For example, look at the yearly flu data from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html) (look at deaths vs estimates of symptomatic cases per year, these will be around the 0.1-0.2%, take 2015-2016 for example, 23000 deaths out of an estimated 24000000 symptomatic cases).

This was actually brought up in a discussion at work, as I work with research doctors constantly calculating death/survival rates from types of cancer (as a result of viral infections). But I could find a pretty clear National Geographic article on this: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-deadlier-than-many-believed-infection-fatality-rate-cvd/ (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-deadlier-than-many-believed-infection-fatality-rate-cvd/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 28, 2020, 02:23:57 PM

Quote from: Orbert on July 27, 2020, 05:20:40 PM

Warning: Graphic Content!

When I took driver's ed, our teacher told us a story about this woman who made sure her young daughter was wearing her seat belt, but she (the mom) did not herself wear her seatbelt.  She got in an accident, T-boned, which sent her sliding across the front seat with enough force to crush and kill her daughter.  She just ended up with some cracked ribs, as her daughter had absorbed most of the impact.

Pretty effing gruesome, which is probably why that story has stuck with me all these years.  So sometimes seatbelts actually can be to protect others.

Doesn't really gross me out, but it does piss me off.  One of those "do as I say, not as I do" so-called parenting skills and the daughter paid the ultimate price.  Hopefully the mother is living with extreme guilt for the rest of her life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on July 28, 2020, 04:28:06 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 28, 2020, 06:12:58 AM

Some people really like the comfort of obeying their government and point their fingers on anyone who dares to think different.We have and have had them here too in WW2 they where called NSB.

Comparing people who obey government orders to the NSB, who were basically nazis, is a ridiculous comparison.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 28, 2020, 05:11:32 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on July 28, 2020, 06:12:58 AM

Isn't Troll alert namecalling ??


Anyway you've seen the coverage of the U.S Frontline Docters SCOTUS press conference about misinformation ?? More Docters who dare to speak up like a few others.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/09K3kIwzeewO/?fbclid=IwAR0fWRDQVw2cVkgSRUEpRx9NFHFGTqWernwDoHKkT8RO0nEOLHyjAT3iL9E

Some people really like the comfort of obeying their government and point their fingers on anyone who dares to think different.We have and have had them here too in WW2 they where called NSB.
Our freedom is taken away bit by bit,dictatorship on ít's way.
A curfew in Antwerp Belgium is in progress now from 23.30 to 06.00  how's that for some freedom?
The coronavirus seems hardly any deadlier than an average flu season. I understand that it's a bitter pill to swallow knowing you believed the news.But i'll just wait and hopefully the tide's turning soon

Look, I'll throw a major fucking party if the news and most experts were completely wrong, but I have witnessed the impact of this virus first hand. It is not a bitter pill to be wrong on this one, it would genuinely make my day. I hate 2020 thus far with a passion. But the sad reality is that this virus is real and that it's impact in outbreak areas has been very bad, including where I live and work. The flu has never done that for almost a hundred years.

The woman behind that conference at least seems to be an actual doctor, but I have to ask you what makes you believe that a small handful of doctors with controversial remarks are right vs the thousands upon thousands of doctors across the globe on basically every platform imaginable stating this is a huge deal? I will turn your argument towards yourself, perhaps it is too bitter a pill to swallow that this fucked up situation of covid is actually real?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 05:27:23 PM

To follow up, I have a few close doctor friends and one who was very much "this is nothing" for the longest time, and eventually agreed, this is soemthing to take seriously.  Now I still debate him quite a bit on things (especially since he lives in Florida now) and often can show him stats he's wrong.  The only reason I bring this up is because doctors are humans too.  They are susceptible just like all of us to believe something that is incorrect.  Also, just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you can't be wrong.  I'd take the word of people with first hand experience over a group of doctors funded by a super pac.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 28, 2020, 05:38:08 PM

Where in FL are you?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 06:02:34 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 28, 2020, 05:38:08 PM

Where in FL are you?

I'm in NJ, my friend moved to Miami and is a plastic surgeon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on July 28, 2020, 07:32:16 PM

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 28, 2020, 08:22:43 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 06:02:34 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 28, 2020, 05:38:08 PM

Where in FL are you?

I'm in NJ, my friend moved to Miami and is a plastic surgeon.

Treating exactly how many COVID cases??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 28, 2020, 08:24:05 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 08:33:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 28, 2020, 08:22:43 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 06:02:34 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 28, 2020, 05:38:08 PM

Where in FL are you?

I'm in NJ, my friend moved to Miami and is a plastic surgeon.

Treating exactly how many COVID cases??

 :lol exactly why I question his opinions, but he's a doctor non the less, but just because you are a doctor, doesn't mean I should agree with your opinion unless your present it with facts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 28, 2020, 08:41:32 PM

What are his commercials like?

"A facelift will help your mask fit better."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 09:02:17 PM

I won't share his new IG his wife runs for him at this new practice he works for because it's NFSW  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 28, 2020, 09:25:31 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 08:33:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 28, 2020, 08:22:43 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 06:02:34 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 28, 2020, 05:38:08 PM

Where in FL are you?

I'm in NJ, my friend moved to Miami and is a plastic surgeon.

Treating exactly how many COVID cases??

 :lol exactly why I question his opinions, but he's a doctor non the less, but just because you are a doctor, doesn't mean I should agree with your opinion unless your present it with facts.

My Chiropractor is also a Dr., but I'm not taking respiratory illness advice from her.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 28, 2020, 09:25:31 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 08:33:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 28, 2020, 08:22:43 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on July 28, 2020, 06:02:34 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on July 28, 2020, 05:38:08 PM

Where in FL are you?

I'm in NJ, my friend moved to Miami and is a plastic surgeon.

Treating exactly how many COVID cases??

 :lol exactly why I question his opinions, but he's a doctor non the less, but just because you are a doctor, doesn't mean I should agree with your opinion unless your present it with facts.

My Chiropractor is also a Dr., but I'm not taking respiratory illness advice from her.  :lol

Chiropractors aren't the same as an MD as far as I know.  This guy at least was working hospital surgeries for 5 of the least 6 years before taking on his plastic surgery apprenticeship.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 29, 2020, 07:37:50 AM

This woman is a licensed pediatrician (https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-dr-stella-immanuel-covid19-cure-demon-sperm-20200728-juzu6mbyvjf7diofyiyro6vewy-story.html).   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on July 29, 2020, 09:48:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 29, 2020, 07:37:50 AM

This woman is a licensed pediatrician (https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-dr-stella-immanuel-covid19-cure-demon-sperm-20200728-juzu6mbyvjf7diofyiyro6vewy-story.html).

Thankfully, she can teach our youth about the dangers of Demon Semen and Alien DNA.

EDIT: Just realized that these are great metal band names.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 29, 2020, 09:53:33 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 29, 2020, 09:48:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 29, 2020, 07:37:50 AM

This woman is a licensed pediatrician (https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-dr-stella-immanuel-covid19-cure-demon-sperm-20200728-juzu6mbyvjf7diofyiyro6vewy-story.html).

Thankfully, she can teach our youth about the dangers of Demon Semen and Alien DNA.

EDIT: Just realized that these are great metal band names.

It's a fair bet that Gene Simmons has already trademarked the former.  :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 29, 2020, 11:26:42 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 29, 2020, 09:53:33 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 29, 2020, 09:48:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 29, 2020, 07:37:50 AM

This woman is a licensed pediatrician (https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-dr-stella-immanuel-covid19-cure-demon-sperm-20200728-juzu6mbyvjf7diofyiyro6vewy-story.html).

Thankfully, she can teach our youth about the dangers of Demon Semen and Alien DNA.

EDIT: Just realized that these are great metal band names.

It's a fair bet that Gene Simmons has already trademarked the former.  :) :) :)

And produced some of the latter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 29, 2020, 03:31:54 PM

Minneapolis is closing bars and bar spaces starting Saturday. My first response was: Who would want to go to a bar in Minneapolis right now? Go to the bar, leave and get shot or carjacked? I'll stay away..

Sorry lordxizor, I know you live in MPLS, I'm just joking around. The police scanner is just crazy every night it seems.

Side note, I went out to eat last weekend in White Bear. They definitely weren't social distancing there, but man did it feel nice to get a Long Island (or three). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 29, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 29, 2020, 03:31:54 PM

Minneapolis is closing bars and bar spaces starting Saturday. My first response was: Who would want to go to a bar in Minneapolis right now? Go to the bar, leave and get shot or carjacked? I'll stay away..

Sorry lordxizor, I know you live in MPLS, I'm just joking around. The police scanner is just crazy every night it seems.

Side note, I went out to eat last weekend in White Bear. They definitely weren't social distancing there, but man did it feel nice to get a Long Island (or three). 

I'm actually in Brooklyn Park, but that's close enough to Minneapolis. I can't say I've had much desire to go anywhere in Minneapolis for quite a while. We went out to a restaurant for my birthday a couple weeks ago. It was a little weird. Felt kind of like normal life again, but with an undercurrent of "we probably shouldn't really be doing this" in the back of my mind. Probably won't be doing that again anytime soon. I have been hitting up breweries once a month with some buddies and sitting out on the patio. That feels safer somehow than eating in a restaurant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on July 29, 2020, 09:31:35 PM

The brewery idea is a good one. I’m out in Stillwater, so Lift Bridge has been a go to. During lockdown, they had a boxset of their root beer with two glasses and ice cream from Downtown and sold those for pickup. It was really cool.

I wonder if St Paul will follow suit. Melvin Carter has always seemed a little bit more level headed. During the riots, he wasn’t on TV crying for people to go home. Time will tell though, I know Hennepin has been surging recently. I was thinking though, won’t this cause people to cross the river and go to St Paul bars?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 30, 2020, 05:29:18 AM

Quote from: SystematicThought on July 29, 2020, 09:31:35 PM

The brewery idea is a good one. I’m out in Stillwater, so Lift Bridge has been a go to. During lockdown, they had a boxset of their root beer with two glasses and ice cream from Downtown and sold those for pickup. It was really cool.

I wonder if St Paul will follow suit. Melvin Carter has always seemed a little bit more level headed. During the riots, he wasn’t on TV crying for people to go home. Time will tell though, I know Hennepin has been surging recently. I was thinking though, won’t this cause people to cross the river and go to St Paul bars?

I'm sure for many it will. Heck, many are driving across the river into Wisconsin since most things are open there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 30, 2020, 07:55:06 AM

THere's a brewery near me that has no tangible inside seating, but somehow they've arranged so that you can pick up your beer and hang out in the parking lot and on the lawns.   If it's a nice Saturday, you drive by and it looks like the parking lot before a Dave Matthews show.   Some kids even set up a "lemonade stand" (with the sign like Lucy's in Peanuts) and a couple of food trucks have shown up.  I'm sure we're skirting the "social distancing" rules here, but last time I went by there were more masks than not, so that's a good sign.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 30, 2020, 08:16:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 30, 2020, 07:55:06 AM

THere's a brewery near me that has no tangible inside seating, but somehow they've arranged so that you can pick up your beer and hang out in the parking lot and on the lawns.   If it's a nice Saturday, you drive by and it looks like the parking lot before a Dave Matthews show.   Some kids even set up a "lemonade stand" (with the sign like Lucy's in Peanuts) and a couple of food trucks have shown up.  I'm sure we're skirting the "social distancing" rules here, but last time I went by there were more masks than not, so that's a good sign.

The Brewery in the old Pin Shop in Watertown is doing something similar. They even bring in food trucks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 30, 2020, 08:56:34 AM

Most of the breweries around here either have a patio, or have blocked off part of their parking lot for outdoor seating. They very frequently have food trucks as well, which is great. Sometimes people also bring lawn chairs to sit in the grass around the buildings as well. Social distancing is possible, but not always done. Since they're eating and drinking almost no one wears masks except when waiting in line to order.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on July 30, 2020, 12:09:42 PM

Wisconsin governor just issued a mask mandate for all indoor activities starting August 1st.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 30, 2020, 12:13:34 PM

Quote from: T-ski on July 30, 2020, 12:09:42 PM

Wisconsin governor just issued a mask mandate for all indoor activities starting August 1st.

Does he have the right to do that? I thought his emergency powers ended by some quirk in their constitution.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on July 30, 2020, 12:17:49 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 30, 2020, 12:13:34 PM

Quote from: T-ski on July 30, 2020, 12:09:42 PM

Wisconsin governor just issued a mask mandate for all indoor activities starting August 1st.

Does he have the right to do that? I thought his emergency powers ended by some quirk in their constitution.

It’ll be challenged for sure, but with Trump asking for the election to be delayed, I wonder if our state Supreme Court will look at it differently.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on July 30, 2020, 12:59:09 PM

No word on the other docters only pick the supposedly weird one.That's the mainstream media way.

In Italy the people who died where old and often had an underlying disease.And had the year before a double flu shot as  it was heavily promoted.

I'm not saying it's not a deadly virus it could be,but not for everyone maybe if you're sick already.Personally i do not know anyone who had covid or someone who knows someone who did.

I know some people like to stay in their comfortzone and afraid to stand up against their government,but here it will be a matter of time that it will happen.People start to recognize the lies and the loss of their rights and the censorship. A group of 180.000 people against the coronalaw on FB taken down.And one day the  virus is especially dangerous for fat people, a day later for tall people they say :justjen

Dictatorship is here in plain sight and you wouldn't even know



 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 30, 2020, 01:02:36 PM

(https://external-preview.redd.it/fZj99ge2OzRrg4ceEY4FwxksVdPgtvZwFlU8ZJJZcb4.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=ed200faa4d7d76faf599d8fe699ebed3ee29e0fd)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on July 30, 2020, 01:27:11 PM

Quote from: T-ski on July 30, 2020, 12:17:49 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on July 30, 2020, 12:13:34 PM

Quote from: T-ski on July 30, 2020, 12:09:42 PM

Wisconsin governor just issued a mask mandate for all indoor activities starting August 1st.

Does he have the right to do that? I thought his emergency powers ended by some quirk in their constitution.

It’ll be challenged for sure, but with Trump asking for the election to be delayed, I wonder if our state Supreme Court will look at it differently.

I don't see how those two things are related at all. In theory, the court's ruling should be based solely on the laws in place, but with cases picking up and a little more clarity on stuff than there was a few months ago, would they uphold it because they believe it to be the right thing to do?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 30, 2020, 01:39:28 PM

Quote from: Chino on July 30, 2020, 01:02:36 PM

(https://external-preview.redd.it/fZj99ge2OzRrg4ceEY4FwxksVdPgtvZwFlU8ZJJZcb4.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=ed200faa4d7d76faf599d8fe699ebed3ee29e0fd)

Too bad - I guess he should have been more careful.........

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 30, 2020, 04:27:02 PM

Is it a legit tweet, or a spoof?  If the latter, it’s in poor taste - political affiliations aside, the body isn’t even cold yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 30, 2020, 04:28:49 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 30, 2020, 04:27:02 PM

Is it a legit tweet, or a spoof?  If the latter, it’s in poor taste - political affiliations aside, the body isn’t even cold yet.

Apparently it's legit but was deleted recently. I dunno.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 06:56:49 PM

So, here in Australia we've done pretty well.  I'm in Queensland where up to 2 days ago, we were pretty much COVID free and almost back to normal.  2 states down where a couple of our DTF friends are in Victoria, they have been going through a devastating second wave.  Anyway, between the two states it's been night and day in the situation.  The state inbetween NSW, were going okay too, but still had handful of cases here and there.

2 dumb bitches from my local area went down to Victoria, went apparently on a bit of a crime spree stealing handbags and shit, caught COVID down there, flew into NSW and then flew to Queensland from NSW and lied that they had been to Victoria in multiple hotspots.  They didn't self isolate and the last 8 days went so many places before it was found out where they had been and that they had COVID.  The nearest place one works at, is the next suburb to where I work, literally 5 minutes away.  I work with the public too and customers come from all over where these assholes have been.

Now all of a sudden within 48 hours we've gone from almost free and back to normal to watching and waiting to see if others have been infected.  Could go into lockdown if over the next few days cases rise.  Absolute bullshit!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bl5150 on July 30, 2020, 07:18:28 PM

Quote from: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 06:56:49 PM

So, here in Australia we've done pretty well.  I'm in Queensland where up to 2 days ago, we were pretty much COVID free and almost back to normal.  2 states down where a couple of our DTF friends are in Victoria, they have been going through a devastating second wave.  Anyway, between the two states it's been night and day in the situation.  The state inbetween NSW, were going okay too, but still had handful of cases here and there.

2 dumb bitches from my local area went down to Victoria, went apparently on a bit of a crime spree stealing handbags and shit, caught COVID down there, flew into NSW and then flew to Queensland from NSW and lied that they had been to Victoria in multiple hotspots.  They didn't self isolate and the last 8 days went so many places before it was found out where they had been and that they had COVID.  The nearest place one works at, is the next suburb to where I work, literally 5 minutes away.  I work with the public too and customers come from all over where these assholes have been.

Now all of a sudden within 48 hours we've gone from almost free and back to normal to watching and waiting to see if others have been infected.  Could go into lockdown if over the next few days cases rise.  Absolute bullshit!

A common thread around (aside from poor people choosing to go to work because they need the money) is the other end with these nuffie females/"influencers" in their late teens/early twenties feeling that they have the right to "party."    Those "girls" in QLD probably won't care about fines - they obviously spent far more on botox............holy shit did they spend up on botox :lol

Even the entitled "WAGS" of the AFL players relocated to QLD took less than a week to break quarantine and go out to theme parks and nail salons after getting detailed briefings on their requirement to remain within the hub.

You can't legislate against stupidity and fines of $200-$2000 don't work.  They need to start with substantial fines/jail time and put it all over the news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 07:29:39 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on July 30, 2020, 07:18:28 PM

Quote from: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 06:56:49 PM

So, here in Australia we've done pretty well.  I'm in Queensland where up to 2 days ago, we were pretty much COVID free and almost back to normal.  2 states down where a couple of our DTF friends are in Victoria, they have been going through a devastating second wave.  Anyway, between the two states it's been night and day in the situation.  The state inbetween NSW, were going okay too, but still had handful of cases here and there.

2 dumb bitches from my local area went down to Victoria, went apparently on a bit of a crime spree stealing handbags and shit, caught COVID down there, flew into NSW and then flew to Queensland from NSW and lied that they had been to Victoria in multiple hotspots.  They didn't self isolate and the last 8 days went so many places before it was found out where they had been and that they had COVID.  The nearest place one works at, is the next suburb to where I work, literally 5 minutes away.  I work with the public too and customers come from all over where these assholes have been.

Now all of a sudden within 48 hours we've gone from almost free and back to normal to watching and waiting to see if others have been infected.  Could go into lockdown if over the next few days cases rise.  Absolute bullshit!

A common thread around (aside from poor people choosing to go to work because they need the money) is the other end with these nuffie females/"influencers" in their late teens/early twenties feeling that they have the right to "party."    Those "girls" in QLD probably won't care about fines - they obviously spent far more on botox............holy shit did they spend up on botox :lol

Even the entitled "WAGS" of the AFL players relocated to QLD took less than a week to break quarantine and go out to theme parks and nail salons after getting detailed briefings on their requirement to remain within the hub.

You can't legislate against stupidity and fines of $200-$2000 don't work.  They need to start with substantial fines/jail time and put it all over the news.

Mate, I'm really hoping these two get significant jail time, espeically if we start going backwards up here.  Looks like 1 new case here from a 27 year old that ate at the restaurant that one of them went too.  Not looking great.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 30, 2020, 07:35:43 PM

Dayum guys. At least your gov’t / society takes this seriously. Our province here just announced plans to reopen schools full time come September.  It’s like the main thing they want to plan for is a revived outbreak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bl5150 on July 30, 2020, 07:40:27 PM

We did have all schools open for about half a term (as the transmission in kids was considered minimal) and currently have schools open only for Year 11-12 to minimise the difference between urban Melbourne (lockdown) and country areas (much lesser restrictions) for students in their final year and for those who cannot keep kids at home.  Here in Victoria we currently have 15% of schools closed due to local outbreaks though so it seems the days of any schools open could be numbered.  It's a total "shitshow" as you might say :lol

In Melbourne today we have 627 cases and another 8 deaths after 723/13 yesterday (deaths now occurring for people in their 50s which hadn't previously been the case).  Door knocks by the military yesterday revealed 25% of confirmed positive cases were away from home.   Nothing will stop these entitled dumbasses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 07:40:52 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 30, 2020, 07:35:43 PM

Dayum guys. At least your gov’t / society takes this seriously. Our province here just announced plans to reopen schools full time come September.  It’s like the main thing they want to plan for is a revived outbreak.

Our government has taken this very seriously, however, the stance on schools has been heavily debated.  We've had schools open through a large part of the whole thing over the last few months at times when they probably should have been closed.  Parents were given the option though through a lot of it and schools were still open for families that had simply no choice due to work commitments.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 07:42:19 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on July 30, 2020, 07:40:27 PM

We did have all schools open for about half a term (as the transmission in kids was considered minimal) and currently have schools open for Year 11-12 to minimise the difference between urban Melbourne (lockdown) and country areas (much lesser restrictions) for students in their final year and for those who cannot keep kids at home.  Here in Victoria we currently have 15% of schools closed due to outbreaks though so it seems the days of any schools open could be numbered.  It's a total "shitshow" as you might say :lol

In our state today we have 627 cases and another 8 deaths after 723/13 yesterday (deaths now occurring for people in their 50s which hadn't previously been the case).  Door knocks by the military yesterday revealed 25% of confirmed positive cases were away from home.   Nothing will stop these entitled dumbasses.

What about that one guy who got doorknocked that had tested positive for COVID and his family member told them, 'no, here's not here, he's at work today.'  :rollin

Fuck, we're a dumb breed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on July 30, 2020, 08:43:31 PM

Are we really at the point of dispatching the military to check on people to ensure they are home?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 08:47:31 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 30, 2020, 08:43:31 PM

Are we really at the point of dispatching the military to check on people to ensure they are home?

In Victoria, yes, that is happening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on July 30, 2020, 10:29:49 PM

Here in Moscow, if you test positive or even if you caught a cold and test negative, you have to install an app on your phone which tracks your location and asks you to take a selfie every couple of hours (to ensure that you didn't just leave the phone in your home and went somewhere). Each time you fail to do so, you get a fine.

Problem is, the app is apparently fairly glitchy so some people got like 10+ fines even though they did everything they were supposed to. Some people said the app sometimes required a selfie at 3 AM. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 30, 2020, 11:09:07 PM

Quote from: Evermind on July 30, 2020, 10:29:49 PM

Here in Moscow, if you test positive or even if you caught a cold and test negative, you have to install an app on your phone which tracks your location and asks you to take a selfie every couple of hours (to ensure that you didn't just leave the phone in your home and went somewhere). Each time you fail to do so, you get a fine.

Problem is, the app is apparently fairly glitchy so some people got like 10+ fines even though they did everything they were supposed to. Some people said the app sometimes required a selfie at 3 AM. :lol

Wow!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 04:39:24 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 30, 2020, 08:43:31 PM

Are we really at the point of dispatching the military to check on people to ensure they are home?

It's for contact tracing.  What other agency has the freedom and workforce availability to deploy people in such a manner.  The US dispatches military for peace tactics all the time (eg, hurricane cleanup, other disaster reliefs).  I wouldn't think of this as Chinese style Military checkups.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 31, 2020, 05:23:44 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 30, 2020, 04:28:49 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 30, 2020, 04:27:02 PM

Is it a legit tweet, or a spoof?  If the latter, it’s in poor taste - political affiliations aside, the body isn’t even cold yet.

Apparently it's legit but was deleted recently. I dunno.

It was legit.

He made the one on the right just before the event, and the one on the left was tweeted out during. Dude didn't have a care in the world when it came to the legitimacy of the virus. Shitty way to go.

(https://i1.wp.com/jimheath.tv/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Screenshot_2020-07-30-Home-Daily-Mail-Online.jpg?fit=636%2C382&ssl=1)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on July 31, 2020, 06:13:36 AM

Dedicated to Herman Cain, to all people who met the same fate, and to Game of Thrones fans.


And who are you?
The proud guy said
That I must wear a mask
"Only a flu of a different kind"
That's all the truth I know

In a FB post or a random tweet
I've read that it's all false
And Facebook is as true and good
As what all doctors told

And so he posted, and so he tweeted
That Covid denier
But now the rains weep o'er his grave
With no one there to hear
Yes, now the rains weep o'er his grave
And not a soul to hear

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 09:11:49 AM

re: Cain... definitely shitty, and karma at work.  I'm just a proponent of the notion that time plus tragedy equals comedy.  Same day isn't exactly the right amount of time when it comes to someone's passing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 31, 2020, 09:17:23 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 09:11:49 AM

re: Cain... definitely shitty, and karma at work.  I'm just a proponent of the notion that time plus tragedy equals comedy.  Same day isn't exactly the right amount of time when it comes to someone's passing.

I wasn't trying to make a joke out of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Yeah, I'd hope it causes people on his side of the fence to take this shit a bit more seriously, although my hopes aren't particularly high.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 09:21:40 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 31, 2020, 09:17:23 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 09:11:49 AM

re: Cain... definitely shitty, and karma at work.  I'm just a proponent of the notion that time plus tragedy equals comedy.  Same day isn't exactly the right amount of time when it comes to someone's passing.

I wasn't trying to make a joke out of it.

It's all good Brian - I didn't think you were... to be clear I was saying that on the matter of if it had been fabricated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 31, 2020, 09:22:26 AM

So let me get this straight: Herman Cain had COVID-19, knew he had it, went to a rally where he didn't wear a mask because he was against masks (and thus exposed everyone else at the rally), and actually died there from COVID-19?  And people are fine with this?

Seriously asking.  I can't keep up with all the news that's news due to all the news that isn't news but is actually made-up bullshit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:24:37 AM

My understanding is that he was diagnosed after the rally, was subsequently hospitalized for several weeks, and then died.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 31, 2020, 09:25:21 AM

Quote from: Orbert on July 31, 2020, 09:22:26 AM

So let me get this straight: Herman Cain had COVID-19, knew he had it, went to a rally where he didn't wear a mask because he was against masks (and thus exposed everyone else at the rally), and actually died there from COVID-19?  And people are fine with this?

Seriously asking.  I can't keep up with all the news that's news due to all the news that isn't news but is actually made-up bullshit.

I haven't seen that he knew he had it, but everything else you said is correct. He went to the hospital with Corona nine days after the rally, so it is possible he had it prior to the event.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on July 31, 2020, 09:51:03 AM

Oh, okay.  I thought the rally was also yesterday, since someone said he tweeted during the rally, and he apparently died yesterday.  Somehow I thought that those two events were related.

I realize that there are disadvantages as well as advantages to intentionally avoiding the news, but I knew I could count on DTF to help out.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 09:51:52 AM

Our school district held an emegency meeting last night and voted to change their school plan to remote schooling. 

My boss sits on a school board and he told me that districts are changing to remote learning because of the guidelines that are handed to them.  In order to be protected from liability via tort law, they are required to follow and comply with all state, federal and local guidelines.   In the case of COVID, the federal and state guidelines are so contradictory and restrictive that it is impossible to comply with them.  They don't know which guidelines to follow and which could create liability if they don't follow them.  So school districts are going to remote learning because they could open themselves up to so much liability if there is even one small breach in how they follow the guidelines.  Most business insurance policies do not cover liability due to communicable disease transmission, so there's no insurance to protect the schools for lawsuits related to COVID.

So for any school problems, at least in Illinois, it's not the school board's faults....it is very honestly the fact that our federal and state governments cannot see eye to eye regarding COVID, and it's keeping kids out of schools as a result.  Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your own opinion, but I think it sucks that kids could go to school if our stupid governmental branches could figure out a way to coexist and handle this as a team.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Yeah, I'd hope it causes people on his side of the fence to take this shit a bit more seriously, although my hopes aren't particularly high.

Is it too much to ask to retire the politicization of this?    It's NOT JUST REPUBLICANS.   California.  Texas.   I get that we're talking about a Republican, who might have gotten this from a Republican-themed congregation, but that's but one example.   Generally, it's INCONSIDERATE AMERICANS of BOTH PARTIES.  Of NO PARTY.   I live in a VERY blue state, and we have our share of assholes and idiots that aren't interested in even minor concessions to the well-being of those around.    Each of the last three weekends I've gotten texts indicating that "public parks/beaches are closed due to capacity".   It's not just "Republicans" going to the beach. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on July 31, 2020, 10:02:53 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Yeah, I'd hope it causes people on his side of the fence to take this shit a bit more seriously, although my hopes aren't particularly high.

Is it too much to ask to retire the politicization of this?    It's NOT JUST REPUBLICANS.   California.  Texas.   I get that we're talking about a Republican, who might have gotten this from a Republican-themed congregation, but that's but one example.   Generally, it's INCONSIDERATE AMERICANS of BOTH PARTIES.  Of NO PARTY.   I live in a VERY blue state, and we have our share of assholes and idiots that aren't interested in even minor concessions to the well-being of those around.    Each of the last three weekends I've gotten texts indicating that "public parks/beaches are closed due to capacity".   It's not just "Republicans" going to the beach.

I could be entirely wrong on this as I'm basing on only behavior I have observed... but you could go to any state and poll the first 100 people you encountered without a mask, and I bet at least 80% would identify as non-democrats.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 10:03:20 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 09:51:52 AM

Our school district held an emegency meeting last night and voted to change their school plan to remote schooling. 

My boss sits on a school board and he told me that districts are changing to remote learning because of the guidelines that are handed to them.  In order to be protected from liability via tort law, they are required to follow and comply with all state, federal and local guidelines.   In the case of COVID, the federal and state guidelines are so contradictory and restrictive that it is impossible to comply with them.  They don't know which guidelines to follow and which could create liability if they don't follow them.  So school districts are going to remote learning because they could open themselves up to so much liability if there is even one small breach in how they follow the guidelines.  Most business insurance policies do not cover liability due to communicable disease transmission, so there's no insurance to protect the schools for lawsuits related to COVID.

So for any school problems, at least in Illinois, it's not the school board's faults....it is very honestly the fact that our federal and state governments cannot see eye to eye regarding COVID, and it's keeping kids out of schools as a result.  Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your own opinion, but I think it sucks that kids could go to school if our stupid governmental branches could figure out a way to coexist and handle this as a team.

In my state, at least in my neck of the woods, the "Federal" guidelines aren't even a factor.  What Ned Lamont says, goes (he's our governor, and I don't mean that literally; I use him as a representative of the state government).   Generally speaking if there IS conflict, going with the more restrictive of the two is the prudent course of action IF the impetus is avoiding culpability.

I didn't vote for him; in fact, I actively voted against him, but I regret that now.  I don't agree with much of his politics, but he is the shining example of someone that rose to the occasion, put politics aside (almost completely; I have not heard him say even ONE THING that could be construed as "party politics", including not once EVER saying anything disparaging about the opposition party), and met the needs of ALL his people.   He's got my support from this point out, unequivocally.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 10:06:39 AM

Stadler my buddy, I would be thrilled for public safety to not be a political issue, but bizarrely it is. Sure, you can find assholes everywhere. I wouldn't dispute that, and I don't think anyone else would either. But in general, the people who are starkly anti-mask or 'you can't force me to not [insert thing here]' are on the Trump end of the spectrum, and they're following the lead of Trump and other higher-ups on the Republican side.

If you don't see any political component to people disregarding a virus that was also disregarded by the president and other top Republicans, I don't really know what to say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 31, 2020, 10:10:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Yeah, I'd hope it causes people on his side of the fence to take this shit a bit more seriously, although my hopes aren't particularly high.

Is it too much to ask to retire the politicization of this?    It's NOT JUST REPUBLICANS.   California.  Texas.   I get that we're talking about a Republican, who might have gotten this from a Republican-themed congregation, but that's but one example.   Generally, it's INCONSIDERATE AMERICANS of BOTH PARTIES.  Of NO PARTY.   I live in a VERY blue state, and we have our share of assholes and idiots that aren't interested in even minor concessions to the well-being of those around.    Each of the last three weekends I've gotten texts indicating that "public parks/beaches are closed due to capacity".   It's not just "Republicans" going to the beach.

You are absolutely right, people are being irresponsible over the entire political spectrum.

Buuut in this instance that man was literally at a political rally with one of the subjects being that the reaction to covid is some old bullshit. If he openly campaigns/talks like that, then yes, one would hope this would be a clear sign to people on his side of the fence (aka his followers) to take it seriously.

Also, as Shadow said, one party has repeatedly handwaved the entire issue. Over here, both the left and right do not do that. Hell, our current prime minister is right wing and he takes this crisis very seriously. The US seems to have entirely different dynamics.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 10:19:34 AM

Quote from: Chino on July 31, 2020, 10:02:53 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Yeah, I'd hope it causes people on his side of the fence to take this shit a bit more seriously, although my hopes aren't particularly high.

Is it too much to ask to retire the politicization of this?    It's NOT JUST REPUBLICANS.   California.  Texas.   I get that we're talking about a Republican, who might have gotten this from a Republican-themed congregation, but that's but one example.   Generally, it's INCONSIDERATE AMERICANS of BOTH PARTIES.  Of NO PARTY.   I live in a VERY blue state, and we have our share of assholes and idiots that aren't interested in even minor concessions to the well-being of those around.    Each of the last three weekends I've gotten texts indicating that "public parks/beaches are closed due to capacity".   It's not just "Republicans" going to the beach.

I could be entirely wrong on this as I'm basing on only behavior I have observed... but you could go to any state and poll the first 100 people you encountered without a mask, and I bet at least 80% would identify as non-democrats.

That's certainly the common trope, and I understand why you would say it.  Certainly a higher percentage of Democrats always/mostly/sometimes wear a mask (https://news.gallup.com/poll/315590/americans-face-mask-usage-varies-greatly-demographics.aspx), but there are other demographics that play in as well, including region, gender, and education levels.  I think if the goal is to encourage others to join the coalition, exclusion and singling out isn't the way to get there; if anything it likely reinforces the divide. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 10:23:06 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 31, 2020, 10:10:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Yeah, I'd hope it causes people on his side of the fence to take this shit a bit more seriously, although my hopes aren't particularly high.

Is it too much to ask to retire the politicization of this?    It's NOT JUST REPUBLICANS.   California.  Texas.   I get that we're talking about a Republican, who might have gotten this from a Republican-themed congregation, but that's but one example.   Generally, it's INCONSIDERATE AMERICANS of BOTH PARTIES.  Of NO PARTY.   I live in a VERY blue state, and we have our share of assholes and idiots that aren't interested in even minor concessions to the well-being of those around.    Each of the last three weekends I've gotten texts indicating that "public parks/beaches are closed due to capacity".   It's not just "Republicans" going to the beach.

You are absolutely right, people are being irresponsible over the entire political spectrum.

Buuut in this instance that man was literally at a political rally with one of the subjects being that the reaction to covid is some old bullshit. If he openly campaigns/talks like that, then yes, one would hope this would be a clear sign to people on his side of the fence (aka his followers) to take it seriously.

Also, as Shadow said, one party has repeatedly handwaved the entire issue. Over here, both the left and right do not do that. Hell, our current prime minister is right wing and he takes this crisis very seriously. The US seems to have entirely different dynamics.

Are you in the U.K.? I know Boris himself actually got the corona, and I kind of assumed that's where his current harder stance on the virus has come from. Is that accurate? That's really the kind of thing I'm hoping for here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 10:26:47 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 10:06:39 AM

Stadler my buddy, I would be thrilled for public safety to not be a political issue, but bizarrely it is. Sure, you can find assholes everywhere. I wouldn't dispute that, and I don't think anyone else would either. But in general, the people who are starkly anti-mask or 'you can't force me to not [insert thing here]' are on the Trump end of the spectrum, and they're following the lead of Trump and other higher-ups on the Republican side.

If you don't see any political component to people disregarding a virus that was also disregarded by the president and other top Republicans, I don't really know what to say.

I see the political component, I just don't think it's productive, IF the goal is to get more people to wear masks.  If the goal is to take political advantage of that disparity, then ignore me and move on.  The numbers are clear, and I'm not denying that.   I just see enough people that aren't wearing masks and yet wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire, and that to me makes this a human issue not a political one.  Perpetuating the political divide isn't going to solve, or even lessen, that human issue. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on July 31, 2020, 10:28:23 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 10:23:06 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on July 31, 2020, 10:10:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 09:19:01 AM

Yeah, I'd hope it causes people on his side of the fence to take this shit a bit more seriously, although my hopes aren't particularly high.

Is it too much to ask to retire the politicization of this?    It's NOT JUST REPUBLICANS.   California.  Texas.   I get that we're talking about a Republican, who might have gotten this from a Republican-themed congregation, but that's but one example.   Generally, it's INCONSIDERATE AMERICANS of BOTH PARTIES.  Of NO PARTY.   I live in a VERY blue state, and we have our share of assholes and idiots that aren't interested in even minor concessions to the well-being of those around.    Each of the last three weekends I've gotten texts indicating that "public parks/beaches are closed due to capacity".   It's not just "Republicans" going to the beach.

You are absolutely right, people are being irresponsible over the entire political spectrum.

Buuut in this instance that man was literally at a political rally with one of the subjects being that the reaction to covid is some old bullshit. If he openly campaigns/talks like that, then yes, one would hope this would be a clear sign to people on his side of the fence (aka his followers) to take it seriously.

Also, as Shadow said, one party has repeatedly handwaved the entire issue. Over here, both the left and right do not do that. Hell, our current prime minister is right wing and he takes this crisis very seriously. The US seems to have entirely different dynamics.

Are you in the U.K.? I know Boris himself actually got the corona, and I kind of assumed that's where his current harder stance on the virus has come from. Is that accurate? That's really the kind of thing I'm hoping for here.

No, The Netherlands. Rutte is our prime minister. As far as I know, almost every party took this seriously (keep in mind we have a lot of different parties). Offcourse there are massive differences on how the parties feel we should react to the crisis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on July 31, 2020, 10:31:59 AM

Had an electrician in the house to wire up the new man cave and do some other small things for us, he left to get a couple of things, got sick at the supplier and is now at the walk in.  He is literally the first person we’ve let in our house since March. Thankfully he was wearing a mask, but now the wife, the kid and I wait to see what happens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:35:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 10:03:20 AM

In my state, at least in my neck of the woods, the "Federal" guidelines aren't even a factor.  What Ned Lamont says, goes (he's our governor, and I don't mean that literally; I use him as a representative of the state government).   Generally speaking if there IS conflict, going with the more restrictive of the two is the prudent course of action IF the impetus is avoiding culpability.

I didn't vote for him; in fact, I actively voted against him, but I regret that now.  I don't agree with much of his politics, but he is the shining example of someone that rose to the occasion, put politics aside (almost completely; I have not heard him say even ONE THING that could be construed as "party politics", including not once EVER saying anything disparaging about the opposition party), and met the needs of ALL his people.   He's got my support from this point out, unequivocally.   

Illinois is handling things the same way - our governor has been fantastic over the last several months and has gone toe to toe with Trump.  He could give two shits what Trump thinks or says and does what he feels is best for our state.

From what I could gather, my county's health department's guidelines are what specifically sent our school board to vote for remote learning, but the idea is generally the same.  Schools are being so severely restricted that it's just impossible for them to operate without the risk of not being in compliance with some guideline, whether it's local, state or federal.  So rather than risk any liability, they're just voting to keep kids out of schools for now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:35:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 10:03:20 AM

In my state, at least in my neck of the woods, the "Federal" guidelines aren't even a factor.  What Ned Lamont says, goes (he's our governor, and I don't mean that literally; I use him as a representative of the state government).   Generally speaking if there IS conflict, going with the more restrictive of the two is the prudent course of action IF the impetus is avoiding culpability.

I didn't vote for him; in fact, I actively voted against him, but I regret that now.  I don't agree with much of his politics, but he is the shining example of someone that rose to the occasion, put politics aside (almost completely; I have not heard him say even ONE THING that could be construed as "party politics", including not once EVER saying anything disparaging about the opposition party), and met the needs of ALL his people.   He's got my support from this point out, unequivocally.   

Illinois is handling things the same way - our governor has been fantastic over the last several months and has gone toe to toe with Trump.  He could give two shits what Trump thinks or says and does what he feels is best for our state.

From what I could gather, my county's health department's guidelines are what specifically sent our school board to vote for remote learning, but the idea is generally the same.  Schools are being so severely restricted that it's just impossible for them to operate without the risk of not being in compliance with some guideline, whether it's local, state or federal.  So rather than risk any liability, they're just voting to keep kids out of schools for now.

Yeah, but tell that to everybody downstate. Holy shit, you'd think he stood out front of the capitol building and ripped up a copy of the federal Constitution or something  :lol :lol It's absolutely insane how many people around here have completely stopped using masks, any form of social distancing, back to shaking hands etc. and not wearing masks even in grocery stores or gas stations, and how many think the virus ISN'T EVEN REAL!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:50:06 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Yeah, but tell that to everybody downstate. Holy shit, you'd think he stood out front of the capitol building and ripped up a copy of the federal Constitution or something  :lol :lol It's absolutely insane how many people around here have completely stopped using masks, any form of social distancing, back to shaking hands etc. and not wearing masks even in grocery stores or gas stations, and how many think the virus ISN'T EVEN REAL!!

I believe we're headed back to phase 3 with more of a lockdown.  It's inevitable.  Our county's positivity rate jumped to 7.1 percent.  We hit 8 and the county gets locked down - all because everyone opened back up in early July and people have been out partying, whether it's at bars or at parties at homes.  It sucks to be a family that's staying closer to home and sacrificing everything fun to stay safe and watching others fuck it up for us.  I'd be happy to see bars and restaurants close again, since adults can't seem to behave themselves and stay healthy.

We have the same conservative opinions of our governor up here too.  Not much anyone can do and I feel so sorry that he's trying to keep everyone healthy and gets vilified for it because of his political affiliation. 

If Trump could just unify this country instead of divide it even further, the entire nation could start controlling the virus instead of letting it control us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 11:35:39 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 10:26:47 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 31, 2020, 10:06:39 AM

Stadler my buddy, I would be thrilled for public safety to not be a political issue, but bizarrely it is. Sure, you can find assholes everywhere. I wouldn't dispute that, and I don't think anyone else would either. But in general, the people who are starkly anti-mask or 'you can't force me to not [insert thing here]' are on the Trump end of the spectrum, and they're following the lead of Trump and other higher-ups on the Republican side.

If you don't see any political component to people disregarding a virus that was also disregarded by the president and other top Republicans, I don't really know what to say.

I see the political component, I just don't think it's productive, IF the goal is to get more people to wear masks.  If the goal is to take political advantage of that disparity, then ignore me and move on.  The numbers are clear, and I'm not denying that.   I just see enough people that aren't wearing masks and yet wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire, and that to me makes this a human issue not a political one.  Perpetuating the political divide isn't going to solve, or even lessen, that human issue.

I mean, I guess that the 'goal,' to the extent that there is one, is just for me to express frustration at people (primarily of one political alignment) who are actively opposed to any safety measures because I'm The Invisible Man and all I can do is sit at home and watch as more people die helplessly. (There, I put in a Marillion reference, don't say I never did anything for you)

And moreover, I think ignoring the political connection is counterproductive. Trump could have said, as soon as the coronavirus showed up, 'Oh shit, this could be bad, everyone be safe and listen to medical professionals,' and then just shut the fuck up instead of downplaying it, holding rallies against recommendations, spouting off whatever fucking thing came into his head because he knows better than the doctors. But he didn't. He doesn't get to escape culpability for that, and neither do the top Republicans who follow his lead. 

And I know you don't mean it this way, but 'It's a HUMAN problem' has the same kind of smell to it as the 'all lives matter' thing. Yes, there are people everywhere who are acting stupidly. My focus is on a particular group (same political alignment) that goes beyond just being apathetic towards most proposed public safety measures for the virus and actively oppose them. That's why, although I bore Herman Cain no ill will, I hoped that his death would be a wake-up call for people (again, of one political alignment) who have been in opposition to any measures to reduce spread of the virus. Maybe they'll say 'Oh, this guy on my side who was against masks got the virus and died, maybe I should reevaluate my stance.'

But anyway this is overly P&Ry now, so I'll shut up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 11:42:12 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:50:06 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Yeah, but tell that to everybody downstate. Holy shit, you'd think he stood out front of the capitol building and ripped up a copy of the federal Constitution or something  :lol :lol It's absolutely insane how many people around here have completely stopped using masks, any form of social distancing, back to shaking hands etc. and not wearing masks even in grocery stores or gas stations, and how many think the virus ISN'T EVEN REAL!!

I believe we're headed back to phase 3 with more of a lockdown.  It's inevitable.  Our county's positivity rate jumped to 7.1 percent.  We hit 8 and the county gets locked down - all because everyone opened back up in early July and people have been out partying, whether it's at bars or at parties at homes.  It sucks to be a family that's staying closer to home and sacrificing everything fun to stay safe and watching others fuck it up for us.  I'd be happy to see bars and restaurants close again, since adults can't seem to behave themselves and stay healthy.

We have the same conservative opinions of our governor up here too.  Not much anyone can do and I feel so sorry that he's trying to keep everyone healthy and gets vilified for it because of his political affiliation. 

If Trump could just unify this country instead of divide it even further, the entire nation could start controlling the virus instead of letting it control us.

I think most of what you said is true from a standpoint of individuals not doing their part to stay safe and healthy, but I don't see any reason to politicize it.  That's what the media is doing and that's what's causing the division.  You mentioned that your governor doesn't deserve to be vilified.  I agree and the current administration doesn't deserve it either.  Controlling the spread of the virus ultimately depends on the choices of individuals.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 11:53:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 11:42:12 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:50:06 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Yeah, but tell that to everybody downstate. Holy shit, you'd think he stood out front of the capitol building and ripped up a copy of the federal Constitution or something  :lol :lol It's absolutely insane how many people around here have completely stopped using masks, any form of social distancing, back to shaking hands etc. and not wearing masks even in grocery stores or gas stations, and how many think the virus ISN'T EVEN REAL!!

I believe we're headed back to phase 3 with more of a lockdown.  It's inevitable.  Our county's positivity rate jumped to 7.1 percent.  We hit 8 and the county gets locked down - all because everyone opened back up in early July and people have been out partying, whether it's at bars or at parties at homes.  It sucks to be a family that's staying closer to home and sacrificing everything fun to stay safe and watching others fuck it up for us.  I'd be happy to see bars and restaurants close again, since adults can't seem to behave themselves and stay healthy.

We have the same conservative opinions of our governor up here too.  Not much anyone can do and I feel so sorry that he's trying to keep everyone healthy and gets vilified for it because of his political affiliation. 

If Trump could just unify this country instead of divide it even further, the entire nation could start controlling the virus instead of letting it control us.

I think most of what you said is true from a standpoint of individuals not doing their part to stay safe and healthy, but I don't see any reason to politicize it.  That's what the media is doing and that's what's causing the division.  You mentioned that your governor doesn't deserve to be vilified.  I agree and the current administration doesn't deserve it either.  Controlling the spread of the virus ultimately depends on the choices of individuals.

Criticizing Trump's administration's response to the pandemic is not politicizing the virus.  They deserve to be called out. 

Quite frankly, the political divide regarding the virus was directly caused by Trump himself once states started shutting down.  Illinois asked him for help with providing additional ventilators early on.  Trump said no, yet then handed plenty of ventilators to states with Republican governors.  He himself turned this into a political issue by helping states that would support him in an election and turning his back toward others.  He refused to open the national store of PPE to distribute to states early on.  He has constantly tweeted and spoke so much misinformation that it made people doubt the truth or believe inaccuracies.  He has criticized his own experts that dared to disagree with his own opinions.  Our President should be uniting the country.  Not making things worse.

It's not the media, it's not the state governors.  It's Trump continuing to rail against state restrictions, closed economies and the usage of masks.  If we had a unified response from all levels of government up front, we'd probably be close to keeping the virus at bay. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 12:30:07 PM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:35:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 10:03:20 AM

In my state, at least in my neck of the woods, the "Federal" guidelines aren't even a factor.  What Ned Lamont says, goes (he's our governor, and I don't mean that literally; I use him as a representative of the state government).   Generally speaking if there IS conflict, going with the more restrictive of the two is the prudent course of action IF the impetus is avoiding culpability.

I didn't vote for him; in fact, I actively voted against him, but I regret that now.  I don't agree with much of his politics, but he is the shining example of someone that rose to the occasion, put politics aside (almost completely; I have not heard him say even ONE THING that could be construed as "party politics", including not once EVER saying anything disparaging about the opposition party), and met the needs of ALL his people.   He's got my support from this point out, unequivocally.   

Illinois is handling things the same way - our governor has been fantastic over the last several months and has gone toe to toe with Trump.  He could give two shits what Trump thinks or says and does what he feels is best for our state.

From what I could gather, my county's health department's guidelines are what specifically sent our school board to vote for remote learning, but the idea is generally the same.  Schools are being so severely restricted that it's just impossible for them to operate without the risk of not being in compliance with some guideline, whether it's local, state or federal.  So rather than risk any liability, they're just voting to keep kids out of schools for now.

I appreciate what you wrote, but I add this for clarity, in the context of what we were discussing above:  my governor did all that WITHOUT going toe to toe with Trump.  He has not engaged in the ideological battle with Trump.   For all I know he mother-fucks him in the Governor's Mansion, but at the podium?  He is fair, and even, and inclusive.  He even made a comment a week or so ago about the vaccines, and when asked about the roll out even made a comment to the effect of "we will look at as many facets of the roll out as we can, including hearing from those that can't or won't participate in vaccinations for any reason".   Not a direct quote, it wasn't quite that explicit, but rather than bully or shame or call people stupid, he's bending over backwards to make sure all 3,563,080 people in our state are heard.   That's real inclusiveness, and the science I've seen* indicates that's the best road to getting cooperation and reducing behavioral outliers.  We shouldn't pick and choose inclusiveness; we shouldn't limit it to just the people we agree with, ideologically, morally, or spiritually.   Ostracizing a Trump fan is no different than ostracizing a more favored special interest group FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE EXCLUDED PERSON. 


* https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201801/the-psychology-racism
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201012/in-groups-out-groups-and-the-psychology-crowds
(There's another article I'm struggling to find that equates the idea of 'inclusiveness' to reducing the impact of 'out-groups'.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 12:36:34 PM

My governor could beat up your governor.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 31, 2020, 12:38:29 PM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 11:53:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 11:42:12 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:50:06 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Yeah, but tell that to everybody downstate. Holy shit, you'd think he stood out front of the capitol building and ripped up a copy of the federal Constitution or something  :lol :lol It's absolutely insane how many people around here have completely stopped using masks, any form of social distancing, back to shaking hands etc. and not wearing masks even in grocery stores or gas stations, and how many think the virus ISN'T EVEN REAL!!

I believe we're headed back to phase 3 with more of a lockdown.  It's inevitable.  Our county's positivity rate jumped to 7.1 percent.  We hit 8 and the county gets locked down - all because everyone opened back up in early July and people have been out partying, whether it's at bars or at parties at homes.  It sucks to be a family that's staying closer to home and sacrificing everything fun to stay safe and watching others fuck it up for us.  I'd be happy to see bars and restaurants close again, since adults can't seem to behave themselves and stay healthy.

We have the same conservative opinions of our governor up here too.  Not much anyone can do and I feel so sorry that he's trying to keep everyone healthy and gets vilified for it because of his political affiliation. 

If Trump could just unify this country instead of divide it even further, the entire nation could start controlling the virus instead of letting it control us.

I think most of what you said is true from a standpoint of individuals not doing their part to stay safe and healthy, but I don't see any reason to politicize it.  That's what the media is doing and that's what's causing the division.  You mentioned that your governor doesn't deserve to be vilified.  I agree and the current administration doesn't deserve it either.  Controlling the spread of the virus ultimately depends on the choices of individuals.

Criticizing Trump's administration's response to the pandemic is not politicizing the virus.  They deserve to be called out. 

Quite frankly, the political divide regarding the virus was directly caused by Trump himself once states started shutting down.  Illinois asked him for help with providing additional ventilators early on.  Trump said no, yet then handed plenty of ventilators to states with Republican governors.  He himself turned this into a political issue by helping states that would support him in an election and turning his back toward others.  He refused to open the national store of PPE to distribute to states early on.  He has constantly tweeted and spoke so much misinformation that it made people doubt the truth or believe inaccuracies.  He has criticized his own experts that dared to disagree with his own opinions.  Our President should be uniting the country.  Not making things worse.

It's not the media, it's not the state governors.  It's Trump continuing to rail against state restrictions, closed economies and the usage of masks.  If we had a unified response from all levels of government up front, we'd probably be close to keeping the virus at bay.

^^^^

This is what you call "keeping it real".

I will add the the party of "personal responsibility" has been everything but......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 01:23:26 PM

Quote from: Stadler on July 31, 2020, 12:30:07 PM

Ostracizing a Trump fan is no different than ostracizing a more favored special interest group FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE EXCLUDED PERSON. 

Has Trump specifically called out your governor or state?  He is relentless on his attacks to our governor (JB Pritzker) and Chicago and its mayor (Lori Lightfoot).  He loves to pick on Illinois and Chicago (violence) so it's nice to see our state and city leaders stand up to him and fire back. 

I get the sentiment that the political fighting between those politicians furthers the divide between their supporters and citizens, and the idea that ignoring a bully is a good tactic, but it's nice to see our local leaders stand up to that big bully as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 31, 2020, 01:30:32 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 12:36:34 PM

My governor could beat up your governor.

Probably, mine looks like he couldn't beat up anyone  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 01:44:13 PM

 :lol

I think this hand sanitizer I bought was made at a tequila distillery. Holy crap, I'm going to vomit if I smell this again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on July 31, 2020, 02:22:31 PM

Another Illinois person here. I also support how Prtizker has handled this. He is 100% science with his decisions (the way it should be). Of course, I don't dare say that out loud where I live based on all of the 'Pritzker Sucks' yard signs I see everywhere. The man isn't even running for office and the political machine is going full force. There are even attack ads on TV against him. Again, he is not even up for election this year.

I also see people all over with no masks and clerks not wearing masks. It's all a hoax.

Our school district offered a choice, go to school 5 days a week or do e-learning. For e-learning to be supported at least 25% of the student body has to opt for that. If you choose to go to school you have to have your parent go online every morning and certify that the child has no symptoms. Then the child has to have their temp taken before they enter the building. While in the building a mask has to be worn at all times. Plus other rules and regulations.

They fully admit that they see a time where they will have to resort to 100% e-learning when something goes wrong. My son cratered with e-learning last year. He is autistic, but we gave him the choice. We fully expected him to choose in school learning but he choose e-learning. He's scared of getting sick.

Going to be an interesting Fall.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 02:58:37 PM

Protip.  If you're not comfortable sending your child to what is (even pre-COVID) a FUCKING CESSPOOL OF GERMS, just say they HAVE symptoms every single morning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:01:14 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 02:58:37 PM

Protip.  If you're not comfortable sending your child to what is (even pre-COVID) a FUCKING CESSPOOL OF GERMS, just say they HAVE symptoms every single morning.

What if the parents have to work and can't find a place for their kid to go if they're not old enough to be left alone?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:01:14 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 02:58:37 PM

Protip.  If you're not comfortable sending your child to what is (even pre-COVID) a FUCKING CESSPOOL OF GERMS, just say they HAVE symptoms every single morning.

What if the parents have to work and can't find a place for their kid to go if they're not old enough to be left alone?

The I guess they can kick that can down the road until such time that they do get sick, or the school's do have to shut down to some extent.  Look for all the effort that MLB went to to try and contain and prevent an outbreak, it didn't even take one week for the virus to get a hold of the league.  You think thousands.... nay.... millions of students are going to dodge that bullet?  I hope to God I'm wrong (which I'm sure you could find me saying a few times on the first 10 pages of this thread), but I see no way that the virus isn't going to run rampant in schools.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:07:41 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:01:14 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 02:58:37 PM

Protip.  If you're not comfortable sending your child to what is (even pre-COVID) a FUCKING CESSPOOL OF GERMS, just say they HAVE symptoms every single morning.

What if the parents have to work and can't find a place for their kid to go if they're not old enough to be left alone?

The I guess they can kick that can down the road until such time that they do get sick, or the school's do have to shut down to some extent.  Look for all the effort that MLB went to to try and contain and prevent an outbreak, it didn't even take one week for the virus to get a hold of the league.  You think thousands.... nay.... millions of students are going to dodge that bullet?  I hope to God I'm wrong (which I'm sure you could find me saying a few times on the first 10 pages of this thread), but I see no way that the virus isn't going to run rampant in schools.

Brudda, I'm on your side here. I just think there's no way of avoiding the virus at this point, but you can't keep kids out of school forever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 31, 2020, 03:15:41 PM

I tend to think they should just go with eLearning for the next school year, and maybe we'll have a vaccine, or at least better treatment, for the following year.  At the very least, if districts are going to have a combination, as many kids who can stay home should.  Then there would be less risk to the kids who do go, and to the teachers.  But there's already a lot of talk of how districts will be open for a while, then some kids or teachers will get sick, then they'll shut it down anyway and it'll be more disruptive than it would have been if they didn't open in the first place.  I feel for parents.  And teachers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on July 31, 2020, 03:16:06 PM

Well, just as I was reading responses here, I see this:

https://apnews.com/6bde87b6c7d3276208c439901af71650

600 kids at a camp in Georgia. 344 have results, 260 of them are positive.

This is most certainly worse for the kids older family members then it is for them, in most cases. Makes me feel better that my son is staying home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:20:44 PM

Quote from: Lethean on July 31, 2020, 03:15:41 PM

I tend to think they should just go with eLearning for the next school year, and maybe we'll have a vaccine, or at least better treatment, for the following year.  At the very least, if districts are going to have a combination, as many kids who can stay home should.  Then there would be less risk to the kids who do go, and to the teachers.  But there's already a lot of talk of how districts will be open for a while, then some kids or teachers will get sick, then they'll shut it down anyway and it'll be more disruptive than it would have been if they didn't open in the first place.  I feel for parents.  And teachers.

I really like that idea, but I don't even think every school district can afford to go the e-learning route for every student. You have to somehow get all the students to a place where they have a stable internet connection, or the district has to cough up money giving students laptops, and who knows where that money will come from. It might not be a problem in the cities where resources are more plentiful, maybe, but lots of kids especially in rural areas have to get their education in person so I'm not sure we're even able to go that route without leaving a lot of kids behind. Plus it doesn't look like a lot of kids concentrate or focus very hard doing e-learning so who knows what if any information they're retaining :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 03:26:16 PM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 11:53:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 11:42:12 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:50:06 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Yeah, but tell that to everybody downstate. Holy shit, you'd think he stood out front of the capitol building and ripped up a copy of the federal Constitution or something  :lol :lol It's absolutely insane how many people around here have completely stopped using masks, any form of social distancing, back to shaking hands etc. and not wearing masks even in grocery stores or gas stations, and how many think the virus ISN'T EVEN REAL!!

I believe we're headed back to phase 3 with more of a lockdown.  It's inevitable.  Our county's positivity rate jumped to 7.1 percent.  We hit 8 and the county gets locked down - all because everyone opened back up in early July and people have been out partying, whether it's at bars or at parties at homes.  It sucks to be a family that's staying closer to home and sacrificing everything fun to stay safe and watching others fuck it up for us.  I'd be happy to see bars and restaurants close again, since adults can't seem to behave themselves and stay healthy.

We have the same conservative opinions of our governor up here too.  Not much anyone can do and I feel so sorry that he's trying to keep everyone healthy and gets vilified for it because of his political affiliation. 

If Trump could just unify this country instead of divide it even further, the entire nation could start controlling the virus instead of letting it control us.

I think most of what you said is true from a standpoint of individuals not doing their part to stay safe and healthy, but I don't see any reason to politicize it.  That's what the media is doing and that's what's causing the division.  You mentioned that your governor doesn't deserve to be vilified.  I agree and the current administration doesn't deserve it either.  Controlling the spread of the virus ultimately depends on the choices of individuals.

Criticizing Trump's administration's response to the pandemic is not politicizing the virus.  They deserve to be called out. 

Quite frankly, the political divide regarding the virus was directly caused by Trump himself once states started shutting down.  Illinois asked him for help with providing additional ventilators early on.  Trump said no, yet then handed plenty of ventilators to states with Republican governors.  He himself turned this into a political issue by helping states that would support him in an election and turning his back toward others.  He refused to open the national store of PPE to distribute to states early on.  He has constantly tweeted and spoke so much misinformation that it made people doubt the truth or believe inaccuracies.  He has criticized his own experts that dared to disagree with his own opinions.  Our President should be uniting the country.  Not making things worse.

It's not the media, it's not the state governors.  It's Trump continuing to rail against state restrictions, closed economies and the usage of masks.  If we had a unified response from all levels of government up front, we'd probably be close to keeping the virus at bay.

Involving politicians in the discussion is politicizing.  You're using the wrong forum.  Take it to the P/R section and discuss your anti-Trump political affiliation there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 31, 2020, 03:28:42 PM

You know, you'd think if any group of people wanted children to not be educated, it'd be the government.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on July 31, 2020, 03:32:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on July 31, 2020, 03:28:42 PM

You know, you'd think if any group of people wanted children to not be educated, it'd be the government.

Maybe our current Government of false truths, but in general, the government should really want an educated population to allow the nation to thrive on educated policies and analysis. 

Sadly, I have no idea how we educate our kids this fall.  The virtual learning requires a lot of parents to be actively supporting their children and with work and everyone's own personal situation, it's very tough for the parents.  Much easier to send the kids to school, but that brings the danger of the virus into every home with a child and teacher.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 31, 2020, 03:36:02 PM

But even if they do (get behind) - I think it'll be better in the long run.  I was just listening to someone yesterday (missed the beginning so I don't know who it was) who was talking about the possibility of kids missing a year.  It would be unfortunate, but the long term effects aren't necessarily insurmountable.  Obviously it may vary by child, and different kids have different needs.  But if a district can't set kids up for eLearning, there are alternatives - having no school for the year, giving them physical resources (books, DVDs, worksheets), etc.  I wish I could find what I was listening to because it was very interesting.  And the speaker made the point that the kids would be better off missing a year of school than losing a parent/grandparent/guardian (or getting sick themselves, which isn't as common in young kids but still happens). 

There was also a financial part of the discussion and how districts should get aid for eLearning - I think I missed most of that but I'd definitely agree with it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:41:44 PM

Ehhhh. I don't know. I'm an advocate for in-person education. Doesn't seem like the quality of education these kids receive via e-learning is all that great, nor is the ability to focus or concentrate. And then you have parents who just can't afford to hire babysitters or people to watch their kids all day, so I can't support the notion of no school for a whole year either. I don't think any solution really works for everybody, I don't think there's one solution that will make this all right, but I just don't like the idea of 'no school for a year.' Too many kids, especially in poorer areas, will only get up to trouble. And I've heard so many stories of kids learning at home getting packets with information that doesn't even match up with the lessons they're going through so who's to say what they're even getting out of home learning?

Like I said before, 10 years ago there were still people in my high school who had no access to a computer or the Internet, and with the state our schools are in, I don't know how it's possible for some districts to make e-learning possible for everyone. If you're going to have kids in the school even one day a week or half a day, you might as well have them in for the regular school day schedule. But at the same time they're not allowing PE or band classes either and making those teachers act like substitute teachers... what a clusterf&*%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on July 31, 2020, 04:02:48 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 03:26:16 PM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 11:53:33 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 11:42:12 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 10:50:06 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Yeah, but tell that to everybody downstate. Holy shit, you'd think he stood out front of the capitol building and ripped up a copy of the federal Constitution or something  :lol :lol It's absolutely insane how many people around here have completely stopped using masks, any form of social distancing, back to shaking hands etc. and not wearing masks even in grocery stores or gas stations, and how many think the virus ISN'T EVEN REAL!!

I believe we're headed back to phase 3 with more of a lockdown.  It's inevitable.  Our county's positivity rate jumped to 7.1 percent.  We hit 8 and the county gets locked down - all because everyone opened back up in early July and people have been out partying, whether it's at bars or at parties at homes.  It sucks to be a family that's staying closer to home and sacrificing everything fun to stay safe and watching others fuck it up for us.  I'd be happy to see bars and restaurants close again, since adults can't seem to behave themselves and stay healthy.

We have the same conservative opinions of our governor up here too.  Not much anyone can do and I feel so sorry that he's trying to keep everyone healthy and gets vilified for it because of his political affiliation. 

If Trump could just unify this country instead of divide it even further, the entire nation could start controlling the virus instead of letting it control us.

I think most of what you said is true from a standpoint of individuals not doing their part to stay safe and healthy, but I don't see any reason to politicize it.  That's what the media is doing and that's what's causing the division.  You mentioned that your governor doesn't deserve to be vilified.  I agree and the current administration doesn't deserve it either.  Controlling the spread of the virus ultimately depends on the choices of individuals.

Criticizing Trump's administration's response to the pandemic is not politicizing the virus.  They deserve to be called out. 

Quite frankly, the political divide regarding the virus was directly caused by Trump himself once states started shutting down.  Illinois asked him for help with providing additional ventilators early on.  Trump said no, yet then handed plenty of ventilators to states with Republican governors.  He himself turned this into a political issue by helping states that would support him in an election and turning his back toward others.  He refused to open the national store of PPE to distribute to states early on.  He has constantly tweeted and spoke so much misinformation that it made people doubt the truth or believe inaccuracies.  He has criticized his own experts that dared to disagree with his own opinions.  Our President should be uniting the country.  Not making things worse.

It's not the media, it's not the state governors.  It's Trump continuing to rail against state restrictions, closed economies and the usage of masks.  If we had a unified response from all levels of government up front, we'd probably be close to keeping the virus at bay.

Involving politicians in the discussion is politicizing.  You're using the wrong forum.  Take it to the P/R section and discuss your anti-Trump political affiliation there.

Holding our supposed leaders accountable is politicizing? Um - OK - I guess I'll take that......................

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on July 31, 2020, 04:24:51 PM

I certainly think in person learning for kids is better than online; in normal times I think school is generally better than home school (though I know there are exceptions).  But given the situation now, if I had a kid, I wouldn't want them going to school, even if it meant they'd get behind.  Since I don't, I might chime in with my opinion here, but obviously recognize that parents and teachers and school employees have much more of a stake in this than I do.  I would, 100%, support a stimulus package that would give relief to parents who can't work from home to allow them to stay home with their kids during this (and for the increase in unemployment to continue). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 05:54:41 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:07:41 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:01:14 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 31, 2020, 02:58:37 PM

Protip.  If you're not comfortable sending your child to what is (even pre-COVID) a FUCKING CESSPOOL OF GERMS, just say they HAVE symptoms every single morning.

What if the parents have to work and can't find a place for their kid to go if they're not old enough to be left alone?

The I guess they can kick that can down the road until such time that they do get sick, or the school's do have to shut down to some extent.  Look for all the effort that MLB went to to try and contain and prevent an outbreak, it didn't even take one week for the virus to get a hold of the league.  You think thousands.... nay.... millions of students are going to dodge that bullet?  I hope to God I'm wrong (which I'm sure you could find me saying a few times on the first 10 pages of this thread), but I see no way that the virus isn't going to run rampant in schools.

Brudda, I'm on your side here. I just think there's no way of avoiding the virus at this point, but you can't keep kids out of school forever.

True, but it’s only been 6 months since this pandemic started. What happened to all the “abundance of caution” everyone had 5 months ago?  Did we spend it all already?  If keeping kids out of school also keeps some adults out of the hospital, or the ground, I’d err on that side of caution.  I’m not saying anyone here is being callous in honking schools should open .... there is no good answer to all of this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on July 31, 2020, 06:37:19 PM

Well, that's just it, there's no good answer to this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on July 31, 2020, 06:46:11 PM

Give every student a full hazmat suit before they can enter the school. Also a diaper. If they attempt the remove any part of the suit, shoot them dead. Burn the body.


Boom. You're welcome.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on July 31, 2020, 06:46:28 PM

Unfortunately, life can't stop forever.  People can only be extra cautious for so long, we're humans and life has to carry on at some stage I feel, no matter what is going on outside.  The longer it goes, the less practical what we have to do becomes.  I don't know, it seems life as we know it has changed forever.  It's time like this, I'm glad I don't have children.  But, there definitely is no answer to all of this.  If there, we wouldn't be going through what we are currently going through.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 07:08:08 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 03:26:16 PM

Involving politicians in the discussion is politicizing.  You're using the wrong forum.  Take it to the P/R section and discuss your anti-Trump political affiliation there.

Fair enough.  My point is that if this country had a unified approach to this virus instead of 51 separate approaches, we could have done our best to tackle this thing over the last 5 months and we wouldn't be keeping kids out of schools three weeks before school starts, having spent those five months pissing away our time and making zero progress to actually beat this thing backwards.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 06:50:16 AM

Quote from: wolfking on July 31, 2020, 06:46:28 PM

Unfortunately, life can't stop forever.  People can only be extra cautious for so long, we're humans and life has to carry on at some stage I feel, no matter what is going on outside.  The longer it goes, the less practical what we have to do becomes.  I don't know, it seems life as we know it has changed forever.  It's time like this, I'm glad I don't have children.  But, there definitely is no answer to all of this.  If there, we wouldn't be going through what we are currently going through.

Yeah, we need to live with Covid. Hiding from it for the next 6-12 months is not practical. Take some reasonable precautions and get on with life. Unless you're high risk, in which case, do what you have to do to stay safe.

I'm on the fence about whether life has changed forever. I'm guessing that 12 months after this is basically over 99% of life is back to normal. There will certainly be some things that change for good (more people working from home, 1000s of businesses permanently closed, a small outflow of people from large cities), but I suspect life get's back to normal pretty quickly, though the economy will take some time to recover. We have short memories.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 01, 2020, 07:02:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 06:50:16 AM

I'm on the fence about whether life has changed forever. I'm guessing that 12 months after this is basically over 99% of life is back to normal. There will certainly be some things that change for good (more people working from home, 1000s of businesses permanently closed, a small outflow of people from large cities), but I suspect life get's back to normal pretty quickly, though the economy will take some time to recover. We have short memories.

I'm sure that didn't come out right. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 07:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 01, 2020, 07:02:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 06:50:16 AM

I'm on the fence about whether life has changed forever. I'm guessing that 12 months after this is basically over 99% of life is back to normal. There will certainly be some things that change for good (more people working from home, 1000s of businesses permanently closed, a small outflow of people from large cities), but I suspect life get's back to normal pretty quickly, though the economy will take some time to recover. We have short memories.

I'm sure that didn't come out right. :)

Change for good as in change permanently, not necessarily change for the better.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 01, 2020, 07:04:44 AM

Ah gotcha! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 07:09:26 AM

I track my net worth monthly and I will say that it has been utterly bizarre to see my net worth go up 25% in since April. The stock market is operating on free government money and hopes and dreams. US economic output declines by 32% in Q2? No big deal, stock market shrugs it off and goes up anyway. I'm not going to complain, but it just seems destined for another crash. I'll ride out that one too, but this all just seems completely nuts at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 01, 2020, 07:21:07 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 07:09:26 AM

I track my net worth monthly and I will say that it has been utterly bizarre to see my net worth go up 25% in since April. The stock market is operating on free government money and hopes and dreams. US economic output declines by 32% in Q2? No big deal, stock market shrugs it off and goes up anyway. I'm not going to complain, but it just seems destined for another crash. I'll ride out that one too, but this all just seems completely nuts at this point.

As I said earlier, stock market =/= economy.  I remember seeing a meme a few months (here I think) that the Dow trendline was just the rich-peoples-feel-good-happy-graph.  Reality will sink in at some point.  It always does.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 01, 2020, 07:28:10 AM

Quote from: Adami on July 31, 2020, 06:46:11 PM

Give every student a full hazmat suit before they can enter the school. Also a diaper. If they attempt the remove any part of the suit, shoot them dead. Burn the body.


Boom. You're welcome.

 :lol :lol :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 07:37:11 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 01, 2020, 07:21:07 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 07:09:26 AM

I track my net worth monthly and I will say that it has been utterly bizarre to see my net worth go up 25% in since April. The stock market is operating on free government money and hopes and dreams. US economic output declines by 32% in Q2? No big deal, stock market shrugs it off and goes up anyway. I'm not going to complain, but it just seems destined for another crash. I'll ride out that one too, but this all just seems completely nuts at this point.

As I said earlier, stock market =/= economy.  I remember seeing a meme a few months (here I think) that the Dow trendline was just the rich-peoples-feel-good-happy-graph.  Reality will sink in at some point.  It always does.

Yeah, I know the stock market and the economy are not the same thing, but I doubt there's ever been a time in history that the economy and the stock market were moving as fast in opposite directions than they are now. It's just nuts. I get the sense that all the wallstreet guys have been given Joker-style laughing gas and they think everything's grand.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on August 01, 2020, 07:38:45 AM

I agree it's insane. I got into options trading at the start of the year and was able to make some decent cash off the market and I'm a moron so I can't imagine the money the institutional investors are making

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 01, 2020, 08:11:32 AM

Eventually when markets crash and an economy tanks, that will hit stock prices. Everything is wild is now, but I don't think anyone can reasonably predict how things will look on the long term.



And I am no parent, but the matter of kids going to school seems like a very hard decision. One year of missing out is nothing when you are an adult, but for young children there are crucial development stages with a relatively short window of time. I am not saying kids staying at home means they are doomed or anything, but if there is a group where this can have a permanent effect on how they develop (whatever that effect may be), it's children. I am glad we were able to open schools with seemingly little harm, but I read this is not necessarily the case everywhere. I am typically very pro tight corona rules, but I hope a balanced plan can be made to allow children to live somewhat normal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 08:58:29 AM

Honestly, I think kids are more resilient than we sometimes give them credit for. I think the vast majority will be just fine if they do an online learning or hybrid kind of approach. Heck, my kids are homeschooled all the time and spend only 2-3 hours a day doing actual school work and they test multiple grades ahead of where they are in their required standardized testing. Kids learnt though play a lot, so as long as kids aren't plopped in front of a screen all day, they'll likely be just fine. Of course there are special needs kids who will have a hard time with any change to their routine though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 01, 2020, 09:11:42 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 08:58:29 AM

Honestly, I think kids are more resilient than we sometimes give them credit for. I think the vast majority will be just fine if they do an online learning or hybrid kind of approach. Heck, my kids are homeschooled all the time and spend only 2-3 hours a day doing actual school work and they test multiple grades ahead of where they are in their required standardized testing. Kids learnt though play a lot, so as long as kids aren't plopped in front of a screen all day, they'll likely be just fine. Of course there are special needs kids who will have a hard time with any change to their routine though.

I must admit it partially sounds scary to me because over here, it is required by law for kids to go physically to school. Offcourse, this means we don't really have systems in place, nor do any people here have a lot of experience with it.

And from my experiences as a handball trainer and supervisor of youth vacations, there is a huge difference between parents and offcourse what children need.



And, well, I was a troubled kid put at a school for troubled children because I just did not listen to any of my teachers and did fuck all (still got decent grades). Thankfully I somehow managed to go from the lowest to highest level of education here, but that is very much in thanks to the great adults giving me the proper attention. I realise I am a specific case though!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 01, 2020, 09:31:46 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 08:58:29 AM

Honestly, I think kids are more resilient than we sometimes give them credit for. I think the vast majority will be just fine if they do an online learning or hybrid kind of approach. Heck, my kids are homeschooled all the time and spend only 2-3 hours a day doing actual school work and they test multiple grades ahead of where they are in their required standardized testing. Kids learnt though play a lot, so as long as kids aren't plopped in front of a screen all day, they'll likely be just fine. Of course there are special needs kids who will have a hard time with any change to their routine though.

All of this is completely my view.  Minimizing the risk of the spread of the outbreak I believe is the primary concern.  All other concerns are secondary - because solving for those (economy, education, return to socialization) will fall by the wayside if the spread of infection ramps back up.

And then there's this.

https://www.ajc.com/news/coronavirus/260-coronavirus-cases-tied-to-north-georgia-camp-outbreak/NZDPEZRRUNHT7CVE43JOPUAVSY/

So, 600 campers, close to 50% are known infected.  Yeah, opening schools nation or state wide for millions will surely go off without a hitch.   ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: orcus116 on August 01, 2020, 09:42:14 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 06:50:16 AM

Quote from: wolfking on July 31, 2020, 06:46:28 PM

Unfortunately, life can't stop forever.  People can only be extra cautious for so long, we're humans and life has to carry on at some stage I feel, no matter what is going on outside.  The longer it goes, the less practical what we have to do becomes.  I don't know, it seems life as we know it has changed forever.  It's time like this, I'm glad I don't have children.  But, there definitely is no answer to all of this.  If there, we wouldn't be going through what we are currently going through.

Yeah, we need to live with Covid. Hiding from it for the next 6-12 months is not practical. Take some reasonable precautions and get on with life. Unless you're high risk, in which case, do what you have to do to stay safe.

I'm in agreement. Open everything up, take precautions, and trust your immune system. I'm just baffled that there's been no reassessment on any level of practical ways to approach this since we're still using tactics from four months ago when this was the plague coming to kill everyone. Being in New York (north of the city) the restrictions are about the same or getting worse when in a logical reality things should be easing back tremendously. Guess that's what happens when you give a governor the power of God.

We're also in this weird state of society where everyone gets a dopamine rush off of beating people of the head with their opinions about keeping people locked down. I stayed off of Facebook for months but have since gotten back on and even with heavy editing of my newsfeed there's a ton of people I like, my age and a little younger, who absolutely love to post doomsday articles about this stuff and everytime there's a tiny little spike to I suppose somehow prove them right and prove that everyone else is an idiot? It's kind of disturbing. I feel bad for people that have that sort of brain.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 01, 2020, 10:59:21 AM

Kids are resiliant, and most will be fine.  But there will be some who catch it, some will show symptoms, and some will die.  Who's gonna tell the parents of the dead kids that that's just how it goes and they need to take the hit for the team?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 01, 2020, 11:14:11 AM

Quote from: Orbert on August 01, 2020, 10:59:21 AM

Kids are resiliant, and most will be fine.  But there will be some who catch it, some will show symptoms, and some will die.  Who's gonna tell the parents of the dead kids that that's just how it goes and they need to take the hit for the team?

It think Orcus was also referring to their resiliency around the issues of *not* being in school. 

Part of my thought on returning to school is not as much for the health (at a macro level) of students, but the spread.  I have a friend who's immunocompromised.  His son is supposed to go back to school, and risk bringing it home?  Risk exposing grand-parents... who (if they are smart) will isolate from any school-attending children.  How is a child supposed to cope with the situation where they brought it home, infected a parent/grand-parent who then went on to get hospitalized, or have long-term health complications, or worst case, die.  How's that gonna work with a child's mental health?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 01, 2020, 01:28:54 PM

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  I wasn't responding specifically to Orcus, but to the general position that "most kids will be fine, so it's okay".  Or even if it's not "okay" but the better of two evils, or the best we've got, or whatever; there will be losers.  Some kids will die, that's just the numbers, and for some people that's reason enough to not open the schools.  What can we do?  What's the alternative.  Sorry, no answer for that.  No fucking idea.  But opening the schools is not an option.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on August 01, 2020, 02:58:18 PM

Kids.......remember when we were kids, and how we often hated school due to ridicule or bullying from the bigger or older students?  I didn't miss a full day of school from 2nd grade on, perfect attendance from 5th grade on......and yet there were times when I was outright petrified of various students and situations.

So......would kids really be missing out on so much?  What Utopian educational locales are so many parents dreaming about?

Footnote:  my elder friend who worked at the Eisenhower WH passed away, my young niece rebounded, though now immensely weak.  A good friend of twenty years, who works at Mercy Hospital in Balto had one of her supervisors die this week.  Joseph Costa, the head of their ICU.  Age 56.  Reason:  Covid 19.

Maryland finally mandated outdoor masking when distancing is not available.  Our percentages are still semi OK, but New York and West Virginia wouldn't allow my wife and I to travel to their states last week.  Grateful in a way, as we stayed at Rocky Gap Resort and Casino.....golf, gambling, outdoor dining, paddle boating were just what we needed.  And all CDC guidelines were in effect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 01, 2020, 03:21:16 PM

Sorry to hear about your friend Joe, but sure glad your niece is doing better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 01, 2020, 03:52:22 PM

Well, the Dutch numbers are rising as well. And I am not surprised. I was in Amsterdam (because I live and work there) and it was chock full of people, tourist season seems at normal levels. They are now making mask mandatory in certain areas.

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 01, 2020, 09:31:46 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 01, 2020, 08:58:29 AM

Honestly, I think kids are more resilient than we sometimes give them credit for. I think the vast majority will be just fine if they do an online learning or hybrid kind of approach. Heck, my kids are homeschooled all the time and spend only 2-3 hours a day doing actual school work and they test multiple grades ahead of where they are in their required standardized testing. Kids learnt though play a lot, so as long as kids aren't plopped in front of a screen all day, they'll likely be just fine. Of course there are special needs kids who will have a hard time with any change to their routine though.

All of this is completely my view.  Minimizing the risk of the spread of the outbreak I believe is the primary concern.  All other concerns are secondary - because solving for those (economy, education, return to socialization) will fall by the wayside if the spread of infection ramps back up.

And then there's this.

https://www.ajc.com/news/coronavirus/260-coronavirus-cases-tied-to-north-georgia-camp-outbreak/NZDPEZRRUNHT7CVE43JOPUAVSY/

So, 600 campers, close to 50% are known infected.  Yeah, opening schools nation or state wide for millions will surely go off without a hitch.   ::)

I do agree with you, the primary concern is the virus.

And seeing that kids in the US are getting high rates of infection is distrubing. Maybe our lockdown was just long enough to get the levels down to a point where opening the schools had little effect. This does not bode well for the coming school year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 06:51:43 AM

Well it's all over here  :lol

After being mostly locked down since March we are now copping the full dose.  8pm curfews for the first time in our history , all schools closed , all shops closed except supermarkets,pharmacies and petrol stations and a 5km radius from home for one person to go shopping for food/ get some fresh air (one hour per day/person) and compulsory masks etc...

To be honest I still don't know if this will work.  The majority of active cases are now the "influencer generation" who feel they have a right to party and go get their spray tans and botox done no matter what the outcome and they'll find a way to continue to be idiots.  Looking forward to catching up with some friends around Christmas if we are lucky.  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Saw an estimated 17k marched in Germany to protest the gub'mint's corona restrictions and masks. Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 02, 2020, 11:25:09 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

TL;DR of history lessons about these times 100 years from now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 02, 2020, 12:22:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on July 31, 2020, 02:22:31 PM

Our school district offered a choice, go to school 5 days a week or do e-learning. For e-learning to be supported at least 25% of the student body has to opt for that. If you choose to go to school you have to have your parent go online every morning and certify that the child has no symptoms. Then the child has to have their temp taken before they enter the building. While in the building a mask has to be worn at all times. Plus other rules and regulations.

They fully admit that they see a time where they will have to resort to 100% e-learning when something goes wrong. My son cratered with e-learning last year. He is autistic, but we gave him the choice. We fully expected him to choose in school learning but he choose e-learning. He's scared of getting sick.

Going to be an interesting Fall.

Well, I can't say that I am surprised being how the constituency is where I live. None of the schools had anywhere close to 25% of the student body opt for e-learning. This means that we might have to deal with full schools. My wife is pissed. I'm not too happy either, but like I said, I'm not surprised knowing the people around me.

It seems the school wasn't quite expecting this as they are now scrambling for a new plan. What a mess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on August 02, 2020, 12:52:09 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on August 01, 2020, 02:58:18 PM

Kids.......remember when we were kids, and how we often hated school due to ridicule or bullying from the bigger or older students?  I didn't miss a full day of school from 2nd grade on, perfect attendance from 5th grade on......and yet there were times when I was outright petrified of various students and situations.

So......would kids really be missing out on so much?  What Utopian educational locales are so many parents dreaming about?

There are experiences all over the spectrum for kids. While I feel bad that was your situation, there are just as many kids who live in horrible, broken, abusive homes, where their only sense of happiness, worth, and belonging is school. It is the only place they get a proper meal, can make a friend, get guidance and counseling. So yes, kids are really missing out on much. How that balances with the benefits of keeping them all home for possibly a whole school year due to Covid, I cannot assess. Kids are very resilient. But they are still developing academically, emotionally, and psychologically too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 01:17:08 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on August 02, 2020, 11:25:09 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

TL;DR of history lessons about these times 100 years from now.

Laughing only so I don't start crying.



Seems the Sturgis Motorcycle rally is going to go ahead. So usually attendance at this is in the 500k area, this is not a good idea at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 02, 2020, 02:59:17 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 01:17:08 PM

Laughing only so I don't start crying.

Seems the Sturgis Motorcycle rally is going to go ahead. So usually attendance at this is in the 500k area, this is not a good idea at all.

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

If only the virus knew how to target those that spit in it's face

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on August 02, 2020, 03:15:55 PM

Thanos's plan is working. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on August 02, 2020, 03:24:21 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 06:51:43 AM

Well it's all over here  :lol

After being mostly locked down since March we are now copping the full dose.  8pm curfews for the first time in our history , all schools closed , all shops closed except supermarkets,pharmacies and petrol stations and a 5km radius from home for one person to go shopping for food/ get some fresh air (one hour per day/person) and compulsory masks etc...

To be honest I still don't know if this will work.  The majority of active cases are now the "influencer generation" who feel they have a right to party and go get their spray tans and botox done no matter what the outcome and they'll find a way to continue to be idiots.  Looking forward to catching up with some friends around Christmas if we are lucky.  ::)

Yeah that's heavy.  I saw the conditions but what if you don't have a supermarket within a 5km radius, how the he'll does that work?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 03:54:25 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 02, 2020, 02:59:17 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 01:17:08 PM

Laughing only so I don't start crying.

Seems the Sturgis Motorcycle rally is going to go ahead. So usually attendance at this is in the 500k area, this is not a good idea at all.

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

If only the virus knew how to target those that spit in it's face

Sturgis is an especially ugly potential super spreader though, since it draws people from all over the country. They'll spend ten days there, drinking and celebrating their freedoms, just enough time to really saturate in the virus, then ride home all over the states with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 06:12:24 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 02, 2020, 02:59:17 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 01:17:08 PM

Laughing only so I don't start crying.

Seems the Sturgis Motorcycle rally is going to go ahead. So usually attendance at this is in the 500k area, this is not a good idea at all.

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

If only the virus knew how to target those that spit in it's face

A photo in the news today of St Kilda (Melbourne) beach a couple of hours after the state of disaster was declared and a couple of hours before curfew.

Wankers.

If they weren't going to end up killing a bunch of other people I really wouldn't mind.......a bit of natural selection.

(https://newsatnewscorpau.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/callea1.jpg)

Quote from: wolfking on August 02, 2020, 03:24:21 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 06:51:43 AM

Well it's all over here  :lol

After being mostly locked down since March we are now copping the full dose.  8pm curfews for the first time in our history , all schools closed , all shops closed except supermarkets,pharmacies and petrol stations and a 5km radius from home for one person to go shopping for food/ get some fresh air (one hour per day/person) and compulsory masks etc...

To be honest I still don't know if this will work.  The majority of active cases are now the "influencer generation" who feel they have a right to party and go get their spray tans and botox done no matter what the outcome and they'll find a way to continue to be idiots.  Looking forward to catching up with some friends around Christmas if we are lucky.  ::)

Yeah that's heavy.  I saw the conditions but what if you don't have a supermarket within a 5km radius, how the he'll does that work?

"Common sense exemptions"

The irony is that they won't want to throw all these tossers in jail because the courts are barely functioning and they don't want COVID in the jail system. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on August 02, 2020, 08:03:21 PM

That photo is fucking mindblowing considering what's going on down there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on August 02, 2020, 08:12:09 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 06:12:24 PM

"Common sense exemptions"

Waiting for Stadler to tackle this!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 02, 2020, 08:14:14 PM

Looks like almost everyone has a mask in the above picture, no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 08:30:31 PM

Quote from: TAC on August 02, 2020, 08:14:14 PM

Looks like almost everyone has a mask in the above picture, no?

There's masks and there's masks and no way to tell which is which..........and they're only really effective when people keep their distance.  Given the fact that we have doctors and nurses in intensive care (as patients) who were masked to the nth degree I see masks as a small part of the solution.   It was only a month or two back we were being told by the government that masks weren't worth the trouble.  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on August 02, 2020, 08:58:14 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 08:30:31 PM

Quote from: TAC on August 02, 2020, 08:14:14 PM

Looks like almost everyone has a mask in the above picture, no?

There's masks and there's masks and no way to tell which is which..........and they're only really effective when people keep their distance.  Given the fact that we have doctors and nurses in intensive care (as patients) who were masked to the nth degree I see masks as a small part of the solution.   It was only a month or two back we were being told by the government that masks weren't worth the trouble.  ::)

I remember that.  They were saying how little masks do to stop the spread.  I think they even had stats to back it up.

But in relation to that photo, I wonder how many of those people are out just because they found out a couple of hours beforehand that from that night the curfew was in place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 09:02:32 PM

That's certainly a part of it Kade , but even under the prior level of restrictions you were required to keep your 1.5m and basically not allowed to travel unnecessarily for exercise and I doubt 90% of those people (no doubt mostly 20-35yo , who now make up a majority of active cases in melbourne) live anywhere near the beach.

Anyway............the 10-20% of people who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves are just going to keep this thing going.  There are 200-300 fines issued locally every day for people refusing to follow the rules and that probably means there's 100 times that number getting away with it.

There was a guy issued a fine in Melbourne last night for wandering around playing Pokemon Go :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on August 02, 2020, 09:10:18 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 09:02:32 PM

That's certainly a part of it Kade , but even under the prior level of restrictions you were required to keep your 1.5m and basically not allowed to travel unnecessarily for exercise and I doubt 90% of those people (no doubt mostly 20-35yo , who now make up a majority of active cases in melbourne) live anywhere near the beach.

Anyway............the 10-20% of people who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves are just going to keep this thing going.

Oh yeah I get all that, I'm just intrigued at what the number would be of sheep and weak minded people that would have needed to go out before curfew just because they couldn't after the fact.

You can tell by the picture that would have been the case with most of those.  I do laugh at the whole 1.5m thing.

You're right about the age generation and them not giving a shit.  Literally had one 21 year old staff member tell me literally 15 minutes ago that he's going down to Perisher next week.  I asked him what the fuck he was thinking?  The mentality is alarming these days of these kids.  He said it should be okay because they are not stopping anywhere and won't need to isolate.  I'm seriously considering not rostering him for the following fortnight regardless if he goes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 10:13:52 PM

Picture from this weekend, the SandBar Bash in Oskosh, WI....

(https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116669296_10223643277410419_4505227171875584698_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=4kjky7pPY_wAX8jgE_a&_nc_oc=AQkRyIzJtrbOpDdnkLdjLFXOyoJiI7_4y4BplhzM-T7f2nFYgZ4xcLJSL-HCSwlPiH9rjOlzORacPSYaY6Y_6rn9&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=7d7c736c270785b7dcb7c9bca52fbdd3&oe=5F4EAC6A)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 03, 2020, 04:14:15 AM

What baffles me is how many people of around my age (30) are like, "oh, but it is just old people". I'd like my 65-year old dad to survive this, thank you very much. I wonder how they will feel if their parents end up at the IC with their lives changed forever. And the number of people severely ill under the 65-years old is not insignificant either.

And besides dying or being ill for like months, many also seem to end up with potentially permanent lung/heart/brain/nervous damage. As an example, a German study of last week showed that likely many recovered patients in their 40's and 50's have scarring on their hearts, including people that were not hospitalised. Corona is not just a respiratory illness, it attacks your entire body.

(Source of that study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916?guestAccessKey=698ebd4c-5c29-4069-9ef6-8839bcbc07de&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=072720 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916?guestAccessKey=698ebd4c-5c29-4069-9ef6-8839bcbc07de&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=072720) News source on this: https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-causes-heart-damage-healthy-people.html (https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-causes-heart-damage-healthy-people.html))

What this all means on the long term remains to be seen, but eh, I'd avoid getting it, even when you aren't likely to die.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 03, 2020, 06:39:37 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on July 31, 2020, 03:41:44 PM

Ehhhh. I don't know. I'm an advocate for in-person education. Doesn't seem like the quality of education these kids receive via e-learning is all that great, nor is the ability to focus or concentrate. And then you have parents who just can't afford to hire babysitters or people to watch their kids all day, so I can't support the notion of no school for a whole year either. I don't think any solution really works for everybody, I don't think there's one solution that will make this all right, but I just don't like the idea of 'no school for a year.' Too many kids, especially in poorer areas, will only get up to trouble. And I've heard so many stories of kids learning at home getting packets with information that doesn't even match up with the lessons they're going through so who's to say what they're even getting out of home learning?

Like I said before, 10 years ago there were still people in my high school who had no access to a computer or the Internet, and with the state our schools are in, I don't know how it's possible for some districts to make e-learning possible for everyone. If you're going to have kids in the school even one day a week or half a day, you might as well have them in for the regular school day schedule. But at the same time they're not allowing PE or band classes either and making those teachers act like substitute teachers... what a clusterf&*%.

I'm a little late to the party here, but I can tell you my kid - 12 years old, on the spectrum - learned absolutely NOTHING since February of this year.  Yeah, he did the assignments, but despite our best efforts - me sitting with him, my wife sitting with him, even my daughter (his stepsister) sitting with him - it was rote "bang it out to get back to video games".   He took nothing from that.   We did what we could to make it a learning environment; upped the internet service, dedicated a laptop, created a work space with a desk and no TVs/tablets/phones in the room,  but it wasn't the ROUTINE.  It wasn't the mindset.   

I'm all for doing what's best for the kids and teachers as a whole, but I would suggest that for some/many, the idea of "elearning" is a fancy way of saying "we're going to table learning for a year and get this sorted out".   This isn't like working from home. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 03, 2020, 06:51:57 AM

Quote from: Grappler on July 31, 2020, 07:08:08 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 31, 2020, 03:26:16 PM

Involving politicians in the discussion is politicizing.  You're using the wrong forum.  Take it to the P/R section and discuss your anti-Trump political affiliation there.

Fair enough.  My point is that if this country had a unified approach to this virus instead of 51 separate approaches, we could have done our best to tackle this thing over the last 5 months and we wouldn't be keeping kids out of schools three weeks before school starts, having spent those five months pissing away our time and making zero progress to actually beat this thing backwards.

Agree to disagree.  The data does not support your assertion in the sense that there is not a clear divide between "Democrat states that all did the exact right thing" and "Republican states that followed Trump into the dumpster".

My state has some of the best numbers in the NATION (and at times was THE best in terms of R₀) and they are not in the Republican/Democrat ideological battle.   My governor put his head down and did what he could for his people.  There are Republican and Democrat governors that did that, including those in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont (another state with some of the best numbers in the country), and there are Republican and Democrat governors that did NOT, including California (some of the worst numbers in the country), Louisiana, and Washington.

I am not defending Trump; he sucks, no question.  I'm questioning the "cause and effect" of that ineptitude, at least as regards party lines. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 03, 2020, 06:58:26 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Saw an estimated 17k marched in Germany to protest the gub'mint's corona restrictions and masks. Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs)

Germany?  Is that a typo?  They're not a Republican state influenced by Trump. Are you sure?   

;)   I'm kidding folks.  Not 100% but trying to lighten the mood with gallows humor.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 03, 2020, 07:01:10 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on August 02, 2020, 12:52:09 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on August 01, 2020, 02:58:18 PM

Kids.......remember when we were kids, and how we often hated school due to ridicule or bullying from the bigger or older students?  I didn't miss a full day of school from 2nd grade on, perfect attendance from 5th grade on......and yet there were times when I was outright petrified of various students and situations.

So......would kids really be missing out on so much?  What Utopian educational locales are so many parents dreaming about?

There are experiences all over the spectrum for kids. While I feel bad that was your situation, there are just as many kids who live in horrible, broken, abusive homes, where their only sense of happiness, worth, and belonging is school. It is the only place they get a proper meal, can make a friend, get guidance and counseling. So yes, kids are really missing out on much. How that balances with the benefits of keeping them all home for possibly a whole school year due to Covid, I cannot assess. Kids are very resilient. But they are still developing academically, emotionally, and psychologically too.

Here in Connecticut (it may be this way all over, I don't know, I'm not an expert on this) but some of the social programs that deliver food to lower income families are tied to the schools.  So if we do go to full e-learning, there will have to be programs and procedures in place to distribute the two daily meals that are generally given to school age kids in those families.   If you add in the "bussing" to that equation, there's more to this than just whether Junior gets in his "kick ball reps". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on August 03, 2020, 07:33:15 AM

Two organizations I volunteer for in the metro Baltimore area:

https://www.facebook.com/StudentSupportNetworkBC/     and      https://www.weekendbackpacks.org/

Plans are to do the weekly distributions through at least September, most likely on through December.  SSN did this on a much smaller scale at various HS and middle schools for the past three years. 

You are right.  The daily meals was an issue during the spring shutdown, and will be again this fall.  How to safely do a fix has been discussed and discussed.  There really is no solution to this hardship.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 03, 2020, 08:38:23 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 03, 2020, 06:58:26 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Saw an estimated 17k marched in Germany to protest the gub'mint's corona restrictions and masks. Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs)

Germany?  Is that a typo?  They're not a Republican state influenced by Trump. Are you sure?   

;)   I'm kidding folks.  Not 100% but trying to lighten the mood with gallows humor.

Actually quite the reverse, Trump's republican state is influenced by nazi Germany....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on August 03, 2020, 09:11:51 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 10:13:52 PM

Picture from this weekend, the SandBar Bash in Oskosh, WI....

(https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116669296_10223643277410419_4505227171875584698_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=4kjky7pPY_wAX8jgE_a&_nc_oc=AQkRyIzJtrbOpDdnkLdjLFXOyoJiI7_4y4BplhzM-T7f2nFYgZ4xcLJSL-HCSwlPiH9rjOlzORacPSYaY6Y_6rn9&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=7d7c736c270785b7dcb7c9bca52fbdd3&oe=5F4EAC6A)

I always try my best to find out if pics like this are legit, and sadly it appears this one may be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 03, 2020, 09:54:18 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 03, 2020, 08:38:23 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 03, 2020, 06:58:26 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Saw an estimated 17k marched in Germany to protest the gub'mint's corona restrictions and masks. Sweet baby jesus humanity is stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXxU1b3dXs)

Germany?  Is that a typo?  They're not a Republican state influenced by Trump. Are you sure?   

;)   I'm kidding folks.  Not 100% but trying to lighten the mood with gallows humor.

Actually quite the reverse, Trump's republican state is influenced by nazi Germany....

Yeah, because there are so many similarities.   ;) 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 03, 2020, 10:29:48 AM

Quote from: T-ski on August 03, 2020, 09:11:51 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 10:13:52 PM

Picture from this weekend, the SandBar Bash in Oskosh, WI....

(https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116669296_10223643277410419_4505227171875584698_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=4kjky7pPY_wAX8jgE_a&_nc_oc=AQkRyIzJtrbOpDdnkLdjLFXOyoJiI7_4y4BplhzM-T7f2nFYgZ4xcLJSL-HCSwlPiH9rjOlzORacPSYaY6Y_6rn9&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=7d7c736c270785b7dcb7c9bca52fbdd3&oe=5F4EAC6A)

I always try my best to find out if pics like this are legit, and sadly it appears this one may be.

It is, I thought I had posted the livestream link to the event as well. Id try to find it but I'm sure it's lost in Facebook land now. I think it was in the group Coronavirus Likes This


I try to be fairly sure of that stuff before posting here, I respect you guys too much to troll you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on August 03, 2020, 10:45:16 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 03, 2020, 10:29:48 AM

Quote from: T-ski on August 03, 2020, 09:11:51 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 10:13:52 PM

Picture from this weekend, the SandBar Bash in Oskosh, WI....

(https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116669296_10223643277410419_4505227171875584698_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=4kjky7pPY_wAX8jgE_a&_nc_oc=AQkRyIzJtrbOpDdnkLdjLFXOyoJiI7_4y4BplhzM-T7f2nFYgZ4xcLJSL-HCSwlPiH9rjOlzORacPSYaY6Y_6rn9&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=7d7c736c270785b7dcb7c9bca52fbdd3&oe=5F4EAC6A)

I always try my best to find out if pics like this are legit, and sadly it appears this one may be.

It is, I thought I had posted the livestream link to the event as well. Id try to find it but I'm sure it's lost in Facebook land now. I think it was in the group Coronavirus Likes This


I try to be fairly sure of that stuff before posting here, I respect you guys too much to troll you.

Everything associated with the event via Facebook has been deleted. I guess the organizers couldn’t take the feedback.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 03, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Customer just walked in the office wearing a face mask. A red face mask with TRUMP emblazoned on the front in white letters.

Huh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 03, 2020, 02:01:30 PM

Sadly, a couple/few of the people in that crowd might not be alive in 3 weeks.

Been brutal at my hospital. Over 70 Covid patients, plus multiple awaiting results. 6-8 code blues every day. 8-10 rapid responses. Being around it has become normal daily life for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 03, 2020, 02:06:03 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 03, 2020, 02:01:30 PM

Sadly, a couple/few of the people in that crowd might not be alive in 3 weeks.

Been brutal at my hospital. Over 70 Covid patients, plus multiple awaiting results. 6-8 code blues every day. 8-10 rapid responses. Being around it has become normal daily life for me.

That's so sad to hear.  Thank you for all that you're doing to fight this.  :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 03, 2020, 02:09:08 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on August 03, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Customer just walked in the office wearing a face mask. A red face mask with TRUMP emblazoned on the front in white letters.

Huh.

Just a reminder that he's responsible for this shit.  >:(

Keep wearing them folks!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 03, 2020, 06:40:55 PM

Quote from: T-ski on August 03, 2020, 10:45:16 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 03, 2020, 10:29:48 AM

Quote from: T-ski on August 03, 2020, 09:11:51 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 02, 2020, 10:13:52 PM

Picture from this weekend, the SandBar Bash in Oskosh, WI....

(https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116669296_10223643277410419_4505227171875584698_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=4kjky7pPY_wAX8jgE_a&_nc_oc=AQkRyIzJtrbOpDdnkLdjLFXOyoJiI7_4y4BplhzM-T7f2nFYgZ4xcLJSL-HCSwlPiH9rjOlzORacPSYaY6Y_6rn9&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=7d7c736c270785b7dcb7c9bca52fbdd3&oe=5F4EAC6A)

I always try my best to find out if pics like this are legit, and sadly it appears this one may be.

It is, I thought I had posted the livestream link to the event as well. Id try to find it but I'm sure it's lost in Facebook land now. I think it was in the group Coronavirus Likes This


I try to be fairly sure of that stuff before posting here, I respect you guys too much to troll you.

Everything associated with the event via Facebook has been deleted. I guess the organizers couldn’t take the feedback.

Yeah, just checked the group I found it in, they did a hard dirty delete.

In other news, Kenneth Copeland is holding a 5 day Southwest Believers Convention in Fort Worth, TX in a venue that holds 2500. Good luck protecting them all Jesus....

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/510313-former-trump-faith-adviser-holding-in-person-event-for-more-than-2000?fbclid=IwAR3TJ4prWhEWokQCazkgsJmzyi3iPSkOJaGYE_3zdPQTb70QX0-aAY7NTes (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/510313-former-trump-faith-adviser-holding-in-person-event-for-more-than-2000?fbclid=IwAR3TJ4prWhEWokQCazkgsJmzyi3iPSkOJaGYE_3zdPQTb70QX0-aAY7NTes)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on August 03, 2020, 07:35:57 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 03, 2020, 02:01:30 PM

Sadly, a couple/few of the people in that crowd might not be alive in 3 weeks.

Been brutal at my hospital. Over 70 Covid patients, plus multiple awaiting results. 6-8 code blues every day. 8-10 rapid responses. Being around it has become normal daily life for me.

Brutal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on August 03, 2020, 09:29:26 PM

To add a little levity to this thread... we need to get some "entrepreneurs" to develop a video series like Girls Gone Wild, where they go around and offer women something like beads to pull down their masks and show their faces.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 04, 2020, 03:54:19 AM

Some food for thought.... ever heard mentioned here or there that there are viruses and bacteria long dormant in the eternal ice, and that global warming is making said ice not-so-eternal and so they could be unleashed if the permafrost melts?

Well, there is, and not since today, a lot of discussion about it. Very quick search on Google finds dozens of articles, here are just some, I mention if the article predates the Covid pandemic:

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170504-there-are-diseases-hidden-in-ice-and-they-are-waking-up (May 2017)

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-in-the-thawing-permafrost?t=1596531107941 (January 2018)

https://newrepublic.com/article/157129/next-pandemic-hiding-arctic-permafrost

https://www.arctictoday.com/how-thawing-permafrost-could-resurrect-long-dormant-diseases/

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/permafrost-release-diseases-virus-bacteria-arctic-climate-crisis-a9601431.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/as-earth-warms-the-diseases-that-may-lie-within-permafrost-become-a-bigger-worry/ (November 2016)


Wanna bet that if this happens, we'll be flooded with conspiracy theories about will claim that the "ice virus" is man made?

However there are no conspiracies as such, at least that I know of. I'd be surprised to find a theory that says "People are spreading false news about viruses in the permafrost and they've been doing it for years, as a long pre-emptive cover up for the next pandemic". If you inform a random person on the street about it, he'd probably agree that yes, so it seems that scientists agree that there's the danger of viruses being released from the ice if said ice melts.

And yet, among those people who'd agree about this danger, you might find people convinced that the Covid-19 is made in a lab, that Bill Gates is part of the conspiracy and blah blah blah. But the warning signs about Covid-19 were there for a long time just like warnings about the dangers of bacteria hidden in the permafrost is!!!

My point is:

Science warns about viruses in the permafrost > no viruses are released from the permafrost yet > people agree it's a possible future danger (or so I assume, I didn't interview a lot of people about it)

Science warns about other pandemics like SARS, which was a coronavirus > Covid-19 actually happens > people lose their shit and believe the most stupid bullshit about it

But there was no difference between the two things!!! one year ago you could have asked scientists "how a pandemic could happen?" and the answer, backed by overwhelming consensus by the scientific community, would have been "a virus could be released from the permafrost through global warming, or we could have another case like the SARS, where a virus infects humans jumping from wild animals". I am 100% sure that if a pandemic would have come from the ice, we'd still have people thinking Bill Gates did it, because by now people seem to have a syndrome of wanting and needing to have an opion about everything, and be the "smart ones who know better".

I don't know if it was always this way, but we didn't know because those people just talked about it at the bar and they were the village idiots, or the internet and social media leveled the field giving the illusions that we're all the same and that all our opinions matter (and are valid) equally, prompting people to have a necessity to be the one who have their own specific opinion on something that only experts should talk about.

The dangers of a new Covid pandemic, like SARS was, were real and foretold by a long, long time. It's depressing how only a tiny minority of the population worldwide educated themselves about it, when the information was a 10 minutes Google search away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 04, 2020, 08:03:46 AM

First day of school at a high school in Georgia. This is going to go well... ::)

(https://preview.redd.it/sp44ts8rize51.jpg?width=576&auto=webp&s=aa9580f0a429e2a518afbe66e7a5078f8092ed44)

This school is closing for two days for a deep clean after six students and three staff members tested positive for Corona after just the first few days.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/08/09/nine-people-test-positive-coronavirus-georgia-school-where-photos-packed-hallways-went-viral/?hpid=hp_hp-banner-main_school-photo-1145am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on August 04, 2020, 08:22:51 AM

Have you seen this commercial?

https://youtu.be/vM3J9jDoaTA

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 04, 2020, 09:11:17 AM

Quote from: Chino on August 04, 2020, 08:03:46 AM

First day of school at a high school in Georgia. This is going to go well... ::)

(https://preview.redd.it/sp44ts8rize51.jpg?width=576&auto=webp&s=aa9580f0a429e2a518afbe66e7a5078f8092ed44)

This is exactly why I think it's really, really stupid to devise all these complicated plans to have kids in school for a half day, then keep them at home for a day, then bring them back... if you have kids at school AT ALL, this type of crowd is unavoidable. Half day doesn't do shit except make things overly complicated for everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 04, 2020, 09:16:36 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on August 03, 2020, 02:09:08 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on August 03, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Customer just walked in the office wearing a face mask. A red face mask with TRUMP emblazoned on the front in white letters.

Huh.

Just a reminder that he's responsible for this shit.  >:(

Keep wearing them folks!

Ridiculous.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 04, 2020, 09:21:36 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 04, 2020, 09:16:36 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on August 03, 2020, 02:09:08 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on August 03, 2020, 01:30:58 PM

Customer just walked in the office wearing a face mask. A red face mask with TRUMP emblazoned on the front in white letters.

Huh.

Just a reminder that he's responsible for this shit.  >:(

Keep wearing them folks!

Ridiculous.

Agreed, it's nonsense. The virus would've hit here no matter what. He's certainly handling it like ass, but he's NOT responsible for the outbreak. He's responsible for sending anti-science messages and emboldening people who refuse to wear masks, however.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 04, 2020, 09:34:34 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on August 04, 2020, 03:54:19 AM

Some food for thought.... ever heard mentioned here or there that there are viruses and bacteria long dormant in the eternal ice, and that global warming is making said ice not-so-eternal and so they could be unleashed if the permafrost melts?

<Rest of excellent post deleted for space.>

This isn't a surprise, though.   This is human nature.   Whether it's viruses, or smoking, or cancer, or climate change, McDonald's, or social media, we're not very good at these sorts of things.   Even those that were knowledgeable on this, or that did have the information, didn't necessarily incorporate that knowledge into their everyday life.   This has been proven time and time and time and time again.   (I travel a fair amount for work - in 2020, I had traveled in all but one of the weeks before the COVID thing shut everything down in late February; I did not see even one mask worn on any of the domestic flights I had taken; that's a lie, I saw one, on my last flight home, and it was a Chinese passenger and I know this because he was one of three or four travelers and they were speaking amongst themselves in Chinese.) I am very much NOT a "government is here to save us from ourselves" kind of guy - just the opposite - but it is the one place where I can see a legitimate social benefit from having government come in.   I think some of you will choke, but I can even support a military endeavor on some of these things, and if that's unpalatable, a "NASA" type organization.   Not career bureaucrats like the EPA, but rather cutting edge, quasi-national security level resources to address these multi-national, transcendent problems.   

This is a great book on this subject:   "How Risky Is it , Really?" by David Ropeik.   (He's appeared on Bill Maher, and has done TED talks, all within the last six months, even though the book is probably five, six years old.)  I think this is a phenomenon that has been with us for centuries; it's just in the age of real time communication and social media that the extremes of these debates - including the conspiracy theorists and those that think government is here to shut everything down and fund the world until the crisis passes - are getting air time and traction. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on August 04, 2020, 09:35:30 AM

Quote from: T-ski on August 04, 2020, 08:22:51 AM

Have you seen this commercial?

https://youtu.be/vM3J9jDoaTA

This is why I'm getting tired of live TV. It's depressing and annoying at the same time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 04, 2020, 10:20:02 AM

Quote from: T-ski on August 04, 2020, 08:22:51 AM

Have you seen this commercial?

https://youtu.be/vM3J9jDoaTA

Kinda comical when you see it all stitched together (pun intended) like that.  But really, not surprising - when else in history (not war related) has all of humanity had one common experience dominating our lives?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 04, 2020, 10:23:48 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 04, 2020, 10:20:02 AM

Quote from: T-ski on August 04, 2020, 08:22:51 AM

Have you seen this commercial?

https://youtu.be/vM3J9jDoaTA

Kinda comical when you see it all stitched together (pun intended) like that.  But really, not surprising - when else in history (not war related) has all of humanity had one common experience dominating our lives?

*thinks about all the Great Flood stories from around the world*  :justjen  :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on August 04, 2020, 10:32:40 AM

Quote from: wolfking on August 02, 2020, 08:58:14 PM

Quote from: bl5150 on August 02, 2020, 08:30:31 PM

Quote from: TAC on August 02, 2020, 08:14:14 PM

Looks like almost everyone has a mask in the above picture, no?

There's masks and there's masks and no way to tell which is which..........and they're only really effective when people keep their distance.  Given the fact that we have doctors and nurses in intensive care (as patients) who were masked to the nth degree I see masks as a small part of the solution.   It was only a month or two back we were being told by the government that masks weren't worth the trouble.  ::)

I remember that.  They were saying how little masks do to stop the spread.  I think they even had stats to back it up.

As with most things, the facts lie somewhere in between the two extremes you often see shouted from the rooftops nowadays, and your average person is not generally aware.  I couldn't tell you what the exact numbers are, but it is FACT that masks have only very limited effect of stopping the spread. 

Here's something that is completely anecdotal, but is hopefully instructive:  When I was in the Marine Corps, we trained pretty extensively with gas masks.  Due to the threat of biological warfare, we ALWAYS had a gas mask strapped to our hip in the field, and were trained to don it immediately if there was any suspicion of any biological agent.  But the thing a lot of people didn't get is that, as comparatively heavy duty as those gas masks are (especially when compared with a cloth mask), they only had a very small chance of saving you.  They are just meant to give you a possibility of having a fighting chance, or at least just staying alive a bit longer to stay in the fight and do some damage before you expire. 

As far as I understand, masks themselves do not provide a HUGE advantage against the virus.  By themselves, they only ever-so-slightly mitigate the odds of spreading.  People need to keep 2 facts in mind:  (1) the mask is not to protect YOU--it is to protect OTHERS in case you are infected (unless you are wearing an N95, which protects you, but NOT others) and does NOT make you bullet proof; and (2) wearing a mask is barely effective by itself--it is to be done IN ADDITION TO all the other things we need to do to limit the spread, such as: distancing, avoiding congregating for extended periods of time, avoiding poorly ventilated areas, washing thoroughly and frequently, avoiding touching, and otherwise staying healthy and taking care of your immune system.



Unrelated:  Just a reminder, as others have said, to (1) please keep political discussions in P/R where they belong, and (2) please refrain from disparaging/insulting others with your posts. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on August 04, 2020, 11:48:54 AM

I agree with that assessment that a mask will reduce your exposure and give you a fighting chance as opposed to having 100% protection. 

First off, it's mostly to keep the wearer from spreading their own potential germs around.  But it also gives you a small amount of protection in that if someone's germs were to land on your face, at least they're mostly hitting your mask and not directly on your own lips or nose, where they would be immediately absorbed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 04, 2020, 12:01:41 PM

And let me add that with all parties wearing a mask will greatly reduce the chances of contracting the virus.

I know that's obvious but there are those that will say 'if the mask isn't a 100% guarantee of not getting the virus then why should I wear one?' 'This is Merica!'

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 04, 2020, 01:00:34 PM

It seems to me that a lot of those folks are the same ones saying that if "only" 1% of people die from it, then what's the problem?

The problem of course is that even if 99% of people who contract COVID-19 don't die, we're seeing more and more evidence that you'll still suffer longterm effects, usually lifetime effects.  Your heart and lungs and/or other vital organs are permanently damaged.  If you get it bad enough to be hospitalized and comatose for weeks, there are longterm effects just from having your brain offline for that long.  My friend David had a stroke while comatose, while bedridden with COVID-19, and he may never play the guitar again.

It's not like 1% die and everyone else is fine.  It's more like the majority of people who get it will suffer longterm effects, and some will die.  Wearing a mask is not a 100% guarantee to prevent any of that, but it will reduce the odds.  I'll take any advantage I can get.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 04, 2020, 02:04:45 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 04, 2020, 01:00:34 PM

It seems to me that a lot of those folks are the same ones saying that if "only" 1% of people die from it, then what's the problem?

The problem of course is that even if 99% of people who contract COVID-19 don't die, we're seeing more and more evidence that you'll still suffer longterm effects, usually lifetime effects.  Your heart and lungs and/or other vital organs are permanently damaged.  If you get it bad enough to be hospitalized and comatose for weeks, there are longterm effects just from having your brain offline for that long.  My friend David had a stroke while comatose, while bedridden with COVID-19, and he may never play the guitar again.

It's not like 1% die and everyone else is fine.  It's more like the majority of people who get it will suffer longterm effects, and some will die.  Wearing a mask is not a 100% guarantee to prevent any of that, but it will reduce the odds.  I'll take any advantage I can get.

The thing is, knowing it's impossible to control a group of people, as everyone has freewill, we should all have expected people wouldn't wear masks. The question I have is, What can I as a person do to not get this virus? What can I do to prevent me from getting sick?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 04, 2020, 03:17:59 PM

That's the basic issue with herd immunity.  It benefits the entire herd, but it requires a minimum amount of participation from others.  You individually cannot do a whole lot to prevent being exposed, except for literally isolating yourself from everyone and everything.  It depends on others.

When you look at countries that are beating this, you'll see that overwhelmingly they are people willing to all do their part, all suffer together, so that they will eventually get through it.  Americans by and large just don't have that mentality.  Here, it's all "me, me, me" and "my rights" and honestly not giving a shit about other people if it will inconvenience "me".

In Asian countries, if you get sick, you are expected to wear a mask.  You do this to minimize spreading your germs.  If you see someone wearing a mask, you know it's because they're sick, but they have to work or shop or whatever they're doing, so you understand.  They are being courteous.  So wearing a mask all the time isn't even a big deal.  Just do it.  Here, if you see someone wearing a mask, they're giving in to the Libtards; it couldn't possibly be because they're being courteous and thinking about others' health and safety.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 04, 2020, 03:45:18 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 04, 2020, 01:00:34 PM

The problem of course is that even if 99% of people who contract COVID-19 don't die, we're seeing more and more evidence that you'll still suffer longterm effects, usually lifetime effects.  Your heart and lungs and/or other vital organs are permanently damaged.  If you get it bad enough to be hospitalized and comatose for weeks, there are longterm effects just from having your brain offline for that long.  My friend David had a stroke while comatose, while bedridden with COVID-19, and he may never play the guitar again.

Yes, this is the problem of people focusing on the deaths. Understandable, but it is not unlikely that the amount of people having their lives changes forever, and not for the best, is much larger. And it is most definitely not just the lungs.

I hope your friend recovers, a stroke is awful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 05, 2020, 10:04:48 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/us/second-grader-coronavirus-first-day-of-school/index.html

I'm so happy I'm not a parent to a child between the ages of 3 and 18 right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2020, 12:08:35 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 04, 2020, 03:17:59 PM

That's the basic issue with herd immunity.  It benefits the entire herd, but it requires a minimum amount of participation from others.  You individually cannot do a whole lot to prevent being exposed, except for literally isolating yourself from everyone and everything.  It depends on others.

When you look at countries that are beating this, you'll see that overwhelmingly they are people willing to all do their part, all suffer together, so that they will eventually get through it.  Americans by and large just don't have that mentality.  Here, it's all "me, me, me" and "my rights" and honestly not giving a shit about other people if it will inconvenience "me".

In Asian countries, if you get sick, you are expected to wear a mask.  You do this to minimize spreading your germs.  If you see someone wearing a mask, you know it's because they're sick, but they have to work or shop or whatever they're doing, so you understand.  They are being courteous.  So wearing a mask all the time isn't even a big deal.  Just do it.  Here, if you see someone wearing a mask, they're giving in to the Libtards; it couldn't possibly be because they're being courteous and thinking about others' health and safety.

Is the perception that they are being courteous, or that they are sheep following their masters?   I don't mean that to be literal or reflective of my thinking, but while I agree with your assessment of many here, I think those people who don't wear the mask here wouldn't see their behavior as "courtesy".  If they did they'd be wearing their own mask to begin with.

I know for me, I hate the mask, but I actually feel self-conscious when I DON'T wear it.  I don't want that person thinking "the fuck's up with this guy, no mask."   I guess that speaks volumes about me, but so be it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 05, 2020, 12:17:52 PM

Quote from: Chino on August 05, 2020, 10:04:48 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/us/second-grader-coronavirus-first-day-of-school/index.html

I'm so happy I'm not a parent to a child between the ages of 3 and 18 right now.

It has been a rollercoaster. My son's district has pivoted again. They just threw out the minimum number requirement for e-learning students. This means my son can stay home and video conference in. It appears he will participate in a normal school schedule but will participate over video instead of being in the classroom. People out here aren't particularly interested in masks and protection. At least, the parents aren't. I also saw that Chicago announced all remote learning today. These early stories about school infections are turning the tide.

What's worse, I got notified from a co-worker and friend that his partner, who is HIV+, came down with a fever and breathing problems last night. They are freaking out and I am right there with them. It's all I have been able to think about today. So worried about their health. They both have left the house to go to the grocery store and that's it. They have been shut-ins, otherwise. 2020 sucks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Quote from: Chino on August 05, 2020, 10:04:48 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/us/second-grader-coronavirus-first-day-of-school/index.html

I'm so happy I'm not a parent to a child between the ages of 3 and 18 right now.

I hear you.  But as a parent of THREE in that age group (10, 15, and 17), I still feel that it just "is what it is."  Life throws curve balls all the time.  Some of them, pretty serious curve balls.  I'm not about to say that I'm "glad" for any of this.  But we set ourselves up for serious failure, disappointment, and worse if we allow ourselves to think that we deserve to be free from serious tragedy in life.  And we grow a lot from learning how to cope with those tragedies as best as humanly possible.  So, again, while I sympathize with your sentiment, I do not share it, and I'm actually glad I have my kids and get to do a hopefully passable job at modeling how to cope with this sort of thing. 

To put it another way, I am NOT glad this is happening.  But I AM glad that I have them and they have me (and my wife) during such a time as this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2020, 12:57:32 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Quote from: Chino on August 05, 2020, 10:04:48 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/us/second-grader-coronavirus-first-day-of-school/index.html

I'm so happy I'm not a parent to a child between the ages of 3 and 18 right now.

I hear you.  But as a parent of THREE in that age group (10, 15, and 17), I still feel that it just "is what it is."  Life throws curve balls all the time.  Some of them, pretty serious curve balls.  I'm not about to say that I'm "glad" for any of this.  But we set ourselves up for serious failure, disappointment, and worse if we allow ourselves to think that we deserve to be free from serious tragedy in life.  And we grow a lot from learning how to cope with those tragedies as best as humanly possible.  So, again, while I sympathize with your sentiment, I do not share it, and I'm actually glad I have my kids and get to do a hopefully passable job at modeling how to cope with this sort of thing. 

To put it another way, I am NOT glad this is happening.  But I AM glad that I have them and they have me (and my wife) during such a time as this.

I like that post a lot. 

There's a fair amount of people in my neck of the woods that are AGHAST that something bad would actually happen to them like this.  Almost OFFENDED.

One thing I didn't mention is that time when my daughter is with me (she does roughly a week with me, and a week with mom).  She's 19 and can do what she wants, but she actually LIKES hanging with us.  When at mom's, she works or hangs with friends.  With me, she works or hangs with US.  We cook.  We have a thing where we're watching 100 movies from a poster she bought (we're about a third of the way through).  So we sit and watch classics - ET, Jaws - famous - 2001, Pulp Fiction - and on down the line.  One night it's Rosemary's Baby, the next it's Spirited Away.   I can't imagine not having this time.   When she finishes school, gets a real job, and/or gets married, this will be a special memory, and, knowing my view on life, I can see it being my enduring memory of COVID, not masks and distance and assholes. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 05, 2020, 02:38:31 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Life throws curve balls all the time.  Some of them, pretty serious curve balls.

And some of them are 95mph heaters coming straight at your head.  No need for a child to feel like a Houston Astro batter every time he/she wakes up in the morning.  At some point, you just say go the opposite of John Fogerty "take me out coach, I ain't ready to play".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 03:10:00 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 05, 2020, 02:38:31 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Life throws curve balls all the time.  Some of them, pretty serious curve balls.

And some of them are 95mph heaters coming straight at your head.  No need to feel like a child to feel like a Houston Astro batter every time he/she wakes up in the morning.  At some point, you just say go the opposite of John Fogerty "take me out coach, I ain't ready to play".

Yup.  :hearts:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 05, 2020, 03:21:10 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 04, 2020, 01:00:34 PM

It seems to me that a lot of those folks are the same ones saying that if "only" 1% of people die from it, then what's the problem?

That's because a lot of people see 1% as a low number.  They don't consider 1% of how many.  Just in the U.S. alone, 1% is 3.3m people.  That is a very high number of deaths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 05, 2020, 04:22:09 PM

I don't even think they're thinking that far.  My impression is that they're thinking "only 1%" of people die, so they have a 99% chance of not dying, and they consider that pretty good odds.

Quote from: Stadler on August 05, 2020, 12:08:35 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 04, 2020, 03:17:59 PM

That's the basic issue with herd immunity.  It benefits the entire herd, but it requires a minimum amount of participation from others.  You individually cannot do a whole lot to prevent being exposed, except for literally isolating yourself from everyone and everything.  It depends on others.

When you look at countries that are beating this, you'll see that overwhelmingly they are people willing to all do their part, all suffer together, so that they will eventually get through it.  Americans by and large just don't have that mentality.  Here, it's all "me, me, me" and "my rights" and honestly not giving a shit about other people if it will inconvenience "me".

In Asian countries, if you get sick, you are expected to wear a mask.  You do this to minimize spreading your germs.  If you see someone wearing a mask, you know it's because they're sick, but they have to work or shop or whatever they're doing, so you understand.  They are being courteous.  So wearing a mask all the time isn't even a big deal.  Just do it.  Here, if you see someone wearing a mask, they're giving in to the Libtards; it couldn't possibly be because they're being courteous and thinking about others' health and safety.

Is the perception that they are being courteous, or that they are sheep following their masters?   I don't mean that to be literal or reflective of my thinking, but while I agree with your assessment of many here, I think those people who don't wear the mask here wouldn't see their behavior as "courtesy".  If they did they'd be wearing their own mask to begin with.

I know for me, I hate the mask, but I actually feel self-conscious when I DON'T wear it.  I don't want that person thinking "the fuck's up with this guy, no mask."   I guess that speaks volumes about me, but so be it.

I'm having trouble unravelling your questions.  Wearing the mask is a courtesy; it is more for the benefit of others than it is for the wearer.  That's just a fact.  Asians are all about courtesy, honor, decorum, all that (speaking very generally, of course).

And yes, people here don't see it that way because they're fucking selfish Americans.  "I don't give a shit if other people die.  I'm not wearing a mask because it inconveniences me."  Again, speaking very generally.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 05, 2020, 05:01:53 PM

It'd be very great if we can get the data for EVERY CAUSES OF DEATH, that has occurred within 2020. Only then, can we know the truth of this virus.

Also, how many of that 1% had underlying conditions before.

And, how do we know if someone that is considered "not having underlying conditions before covid-19" never bothered going to the doctor about those conditions until Covid-19 worsened those symptoms. Would they get diagnosed as currently having contracted the sickness?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 05, 2020, 07:01:52 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on August 05, 2020, 05:01:53 PM

It'd be very great if we can get the data for EVERY CAUSES OF DEATH, that has occurred within 2020. Only then, can we know the truth of this virus.

Also, how many of that 1% had underlying conditions before.

And, how do we know if someone that is considered "not having underlying conditions before covid-19" never bothered going to the doctor about those conditions until Covid-19 worsened those symptoms. Would they get diagnosed as currently having contracted the sickness?

The CDC (and their counterparts in other countries) kind of do that, but it is yearly and the numbers are in constant fluctuation. But I don't really understand why you need every cause of death to get the true numbers? It is not like you can trace the deaths back to the doctors and their decisions. What does knowing how many die in traffic accidents do to change the covid numbers? Annyways, the total death excess this year statistically already surpasses previous years and the excess is also higher than just the covid number added. A news article on this: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries). It is not very likely the corona death are overcounted. Furthermore, the flu season already did it's usual thing before corona outbreaks hit (killing a lot of vulnerable people).

In regards to underlying health issues, the majority of the adult population in the US has them, be it diabetes, asthma, hypertension, obesity etc. Especially the latter two are extremely common. In regards to why they link certain things to covid, you'd have to read the actual studies and the methods they used. The only way to really understand where data comes from is to read the science.

The total overview of publications on pubmed for covid-19:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%28%28wuhan%5BAll+Fields%5D+AND+%28%22coronavirus%22%5BMeSH+Terms%5D+OR+%22coronavirus%22%5BAll+Fields%5D%29%29+AND+2019%2F12%5BPDAT%5D+%3A+2030%5BPDAT%5D%29+OR+2019-nCoV%5BAll+Fields%5D+OR+2019nCoV%5BAll+Fields%5D+OR+COVID-19%5BAll+Fields%5D+OR+SARS-CoV-2%5BAll+Fields%5D&sort=date (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%28%28wuhan%5BAll+Fields%5D+AND+%28%22coronavirus%22%5BMeSH+Terms%5D+OR+%22coronavirus%22%5BAll+Fields%5D%29%29+AND+2019%2F12%5BPDAT%5D+%3A+2030%5BPDAT%5D%29+OR+2019-nCoV%5BAll+Fields%5D+OR+2019nCoV%5BAll+Fields%5D+OR+COVID-19%5BAll+Fields%5D+OR+SARS-CoV-2%5BAll+Fields%5D&sort=date) (free PCM articles are fully accesible without subscriptions to scientific journals).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 06, 2020, 08:45:40 AM

Quote from: Chino on August 04, 2020, 08:03:46 AM

First day of school at a high school in Georgia. This is going to go well... ::)

(https://preview.redd.it/sp44ts8rize51.jpg?width=576&auto=webp&s=aa9580f0a429e2a518afbe66e7a5078f8092ed44)

This school district is messed up.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/georgia-school-reopening-photo-paulding-county

Oh, and the student that took that picture - suspended for it.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/student-suspended-showing-fellow-students-065443749.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 06, 2020, 09:29:47 AM

That's BS that they suspended that student.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 06, 2020, 10:18:52 AM

They actually referred to him as a "whistleblower".

Folks, if you're doing something, and you punish someone you call a "whistleblower", isn't that a pretty good indication that you're doing something wrong?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 06, 2020, 11:03:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 05, 2020, 02:38:31 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Life throws curve balls all the time.  Some of them, pretty serious curve balls.

And some of them are 95mph heaters coming straight at your head.  No need for a child to feel like a Houston Astro batter every time he/she wakes up in the morning.  At some point, you just say go the opposite of John Fogerty "take me out coach, I ain't ready to play".

I get your point and I'm sympathetic, but sometimes the analogy fails; it's NOT a game, and there is no "I need a day off". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 06, 2020, 12:51:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on August 06, 2020, 11:03:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 05, 2020, 02:38:31 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Life throws curve balls all the time.  Some of them, pretty serious curve balls.

And some of them are 95mph heaters coming straight at your head.  No need for a child to feel like a Houston Astro batter every time he/she wakes up in the morning.  At some point, you just say go the opposite of John Fogerty "take me out coach, I ain't ready to play".

I get your point and I'm sympathetic, but sometimes the analogy fails; it's NOT a game, and there is no "I need a day off".

I think we're not on the same page with the analogy I'm trying to draw - so I'll be explicit.  Wholesale 'back to school' plans for students is the worst fucking idea I think I've ever heard.  I see no path for how this ends well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 06, 2020, 01:08:24 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 06, 2020, 12:51:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on August 06, 2020, 11:03:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 05, 2020, 02:38:31 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on August 05, 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Life throws curve balls all the time.  Some of them, pretty serious curve balls.

And some of them are 95mph heaters coming straight at your head.  No need for a child to feel like a Houston Astro batter every time he/she wakes up in the morning.  At some point, you just say go the opposite of John Fogerty "take me out coach, I ain't ready to play".

I get your point and I'm sympathetic, but sometimes the analogy fails; it's NOT a game, and there is no "I need a day off".

I think we're not on the same page with the analogy I'm trying to draw - so I'll be explicit.  Wholesale 'back to school' plans for students is the worst fucking idea I think I've ever heard.  I see no path for how this ends well.

My fault; I wasn't speaking so specifically.  I agree with you, by the way. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 06, 2020, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on August 06, 2020, 08:45:40 AM

Quote from: Chino on August 04, 2020, 08:03:46 AM

First day of school at a high school in Georgia. This is going to go well... ::)

(https://preview.redd.it/sp44ts8rize51.jpg?width=576&auto=webp&s=aa9580f0a429e2a518afbe66e7a5078f8092ed44)

This school district is messed up.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/georgia-school-reopening-photo-paulding-county (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/georgia-school-reopening-photo-paulding-county)

Oh, and the student that took that picture - suspended for it.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/student-suspended-showing-fellow-students-065443749.html (https://www.yahoo.com/gma/student-suspended-showing-fellow-students-065443749.html)

My son and grandchildren live in Georgia and the willful ignorance that's going on down there right now among the general population is really infuriating.  My daughter-in-law just gave birth to my grandson a month ago and now she's got to go back to work in a few weeks teaching kindergarten.  The damned school isn't even mandating masks.  Not for anyone.  Not for kids, not for teachers, not for the cafeteria workers, nobody is required to wear a face covering.  :censored 

She and my son are petrified that she's going to catch the virus from one of her kids and bring it home to her family. 


If this pandemic has taught me anything it's the fact that about 1/3 of the people who live in this country are profoundly and willfully ignorant.  And on top of that, the vast majority of them don't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about anyone other than themselves. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 06, 2020, 02:33:21 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on August 06, 2020, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on August 06, 2020, 08:45:40 AM

Quote from: Chino on August 04, 2020, 08:03:46 AM

First day of school at a high school in Georgia. This is going to go well... ::)

(https://preview.redd.it/sp44ts8rize51.jpg?width=576&auto=webp&s=aa9580f0a429e2a518afbe66e7a5078f8092ed44)

This school district is messed up.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/georgia-school-reopening-photo-paulding-county (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/georgia-school-reopening-photo-paulding-county)

Oh, and the student that took that picture - suspended for it.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/student-suspended-showing-fellow-students-065443749.html (https://www.yahoo.com/gma/student-suspended-showing-fellow-students-065443749.html)

My son and grandchildren live in Georgia and the willful ignorance that's going on down there right now among the general population is really infuriating.  My daughter-in-law just gave birth to my grandson a month ago and now she's got to go back to work in a few weeks teaching kindergarten.  The damned school isn't even mandating masks.  Not for anyone.  Not for kids, not for teachers, not for the cafeteria workers, nobody is required to wear a face covering.  :censored 

She and my son are petrified that she's going to catch the virus from one of her kids and bring it home to her family. 


If this pandemic has taught me anything it's the fact that about 1/3 of the people who live in this country are profoundly and willfully ignorant.  And on top of that, the vast majority of them don't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about anyone other than themselves.

That's the sad reality. Assholes will still be Assholes, regardless. Taking that into account, Are we doing the best we can to protect OURSELVES from those people? So far, I feel the best is being done. I feel bad for residents of Georgia their Governor isn't taking it into account to mandate at least some protection in the schools at the very least.

I feel now we could have let businesses be left open, limited the capacity, mandated masks in the buildings, and let everybody know they assume all risks if they catch the sickness by stepping out the front door of their homes. And one positive case within the business, shut it down for a mandatory deep cleansing,but still let it be open, people can decide not to go if they feel it's not safe.


 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 06, 2020, 02:42:01 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 06, 2020, 10:18:52 AM

They actually referred to him as a "whistleblower".

Folks, if you're doing something, and you punish someone you call a "whistleblower", isn't that a pretty good indication that you're doing something wrong?

To be fair, it was the reporter that called him a whistleblower.


But your point is on point. The principal doesn't want anyone questioning WTF is going on in there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 06, 2020, 04:40:04 PM

Like I said before in a previous post, it all comes down to the choices of individuals.  The guidelines have been communicated at a national, regional and local level.  If someone isn't aware of the guidelines, then they've probably been living under a rock of complete and utter ignorance.  The shutdowns and guidelines were put in place from the very beginning to slow the spread.  It worked until everybody tried to open up again safely and people went nuts on a free-for-all like nothing ever happened.  Now they wonder what happened and why.  Looking for someone to blame.  Someone in charge.  If multitudes of people aren't up the playing by the rules, they are to blame.  No one else.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 06, 2020, 05:15:55 PM

That's the whole problem, though.  I should not have been left up to personal choice, because we know -- and have now seen irrefutable evidence -- that people will not play by the rules and will not put others ahead of their own selfish selves.  Some, but not nearly the huge majority that it would take to make it work.

What should have happened from the beginning was a nationwide mandate.  Stay the fuck home!  Celebrities were making TV and radio spots telling people to stay home, and some people somewhere hoped that that would be enough.  Nice try.  Some countries literally imposed stay-at-home orders, imposed martial law, and arrested people for violating it.  Crack down hard to start with; you can always ease up later.  That's what the scientists and medical experts said, but nobody wanted to do that.  So now that the population is being ravaged, they're trying to crack down a little bit, even as other areas still don't get it and are opening up.

Once again, there are countries that have (mostly) beaten this.  We have models we could have followed.  "But the economy!  But my freedoms!"  Fuck that.  The economy and your freedoms don't matter if we're all dead.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 06, 2020, 05:30:57 PM

Only 1% of us will die, though.

^ Hard to tell in text, but this is said in biting sarcasm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 06, 2020, 08:55:00 PM

I suppose that by saying we'll "all" be dead, I'm exaggerating, and therefore not signficantly better than those who swing too far the other way.  I'm the doomsayer to the other side's carefree, beachgoing idiots.  I just don't want to be in that 1%.  And we need to remember that that 1% is not evenly distributed across the population.  For all the charts and graphs I've seen over the past six months, I don't remember seeing one mapping survival % vs age, though I'm sure someone's done one, and I can guess what it looks like.  It has a generally positive slope.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 06, 2020, 09:58:30 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 06, 2020, 08:55:00 PM

For all the charts and graphs I've seen over the past six months, I don't remember seeing one mapping survival % vs age, though I'm sure someone's done one, and I can guess what it looks like.  It has a generally positive slope.

Except for the 7-year old that died in Georgia today; or the 2nd grader that tested positive in Georgia after day 1 of school (not suggesting the child contracted it at school, just coincidental timing).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on August 07, 2020, 03:41:47 AM

Look !! at the 17.000 idiots?? who where there for their freedom .....it was about 1.3 million people. 17.000 is what the fake media tells you.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjk7QFwzMVY

All the media does is fearmongering ,everyone is afraid to die.So what better way than a deadly virus to scare people with only one solution.Which by the way is rapidly developed faster than any other vaccine.Phew that's a relief.I think i'll take it because my immunesystem isn't that good.Bet'cha it's gonna  fail afterwards

You have to search for the ties, there's basically one family who set up and supported the nowadays medical world and possibly science too.All natural medical treatments are mostly banned or will be.

For more ties look at this documentary fall of the cabal   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjk7QFwzMVY

Saying tinfoil hat look who's wearing eye protection and face masks now ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 07, 2020, 04:11:13 AM

...you do know that there was already a coronavirus less than 20 years ago, right?

....you do know that scientists have been warning about the dangers of a possible pandemic for years, right?

Speaking of dangers of pandemics, google "dangers of bacteria in permafrost" - you'll find many articles, some of which are not recent but old, about the chance that global warming might melt the polar caps or glaciers that hold millennia old bacteria or viruses that were long dormant and frozen in ice.

Guess what - the same many articles, years old, warning about the possibile future pandemics are also there, just like the warning about the dangers of viruses in the ice are.

Can you give me a valid and rational explanation about how the articles saying since years "Hey guys, there's the reisk that if the ice melts, some old viruses will be released" are valid, but all the articles saying since years "Hey guys, we might have another pandemic like the SARS if not worse" are not valid?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 07, 2020, 06:40:52 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 06, 2020, 09:58:30 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 06, 2020, 08:55:00 PM

For all the charts and graphs I've seen over the past six months, I don't remember seeing one mapping survival % vs age, though I'm sure someone's done one, and I can guess what it looks like.  It has a generally positive slope.

Except for the 7-year old that died in Georgia today; or the 2nd grader that tested positive in Georgia after day 1 of school (not suggesting the child contracted it at school, just coincidental timing).

That's why I said "generally".  That children are also dying is not news.  From the beginning, it's been known that anyone can get it, but the elderly those with other health issues are higher risk.  I've seen nothing that refutes that, and your exceptions are exactly that: exceptions to the general curve.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 07, 2020, 07:25:01 AM

I see both sides of this. I see and understand the outrage for "my people" (mine are in North Carolina and Florida, not Georgia, but my boss is there - with his two young children - and I have friends there).   

But the fact is, calling people you don't agree with "ignorant", because they don't follow YOUR model of the way things are is problematic for me.  The governor of Georgia was voted in.  By whatever system they use, the people elected him.  Granted, they don't necessarily have to like and accept every subsequent decision, but this is how it works.  I don't like the ACA even a little bit, but that doesn't mean that everyone that does like it is "ignorant" or "out for themselves".   That people might die as a result of these actions doesn't change that.

There are options here, of varying degrees of effectiveness and palatability.   Don't go, for one.   File a motion for an injunction, for two.  This is not a minor issue, this is not an obscure debate, I cannot IMAGINE there's not a law firm somewhere in Georgia or elsewhere that wouldn't take this for the PR bump itself.    File a motion in court, and demand an injunction.   

I'm in a state where they're doing EVERYTHING right (and I mean that almost literally).  I've written here before that I've been blown away by my governor, a governer I didn't like and didn't vote for.    He's handling this as if reading from the textbook of the Gods.  Even the esteemed Dr. Fauci appeared at a press conference locally, with our governor, in the last week discussing the situation here.  Having said that, we're starting school here in a couple weeks.  There's not a clear answer about protocols and procedures (though that's been mandated and expected by the time school starts), and there's a pretty stark discrepancy between the state's plan and a plan unilaterally proposed by the Connecticut teacher's union.  My son is on the spectrum, and for him this is going to be a difficult circumstance.  We're likely going to keep him home.  This in turn means he will likely fall behind in his development, but these are the cards we're dealt.   I don't feel entitled to call everyone whose plans don't conform to mine names or make the system bend to my needs. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 07, 2020, 07:36:37 AM

Massachusetts is leaving it up to the individual districts.

We're lucky in my town because it's a small town and a relatively small student population. About 100 kids per grade.

Our plan is that half of the kids (A-L) are going in person Mon & Tues, while the other half (M-Z) is remote. All students are remote on Wednesday. On Thurs and Fri, Group M-Z will be in person and Group A-L will be remote.

Of course parents also have to option the have their kids do remote only.

Our superintendent (who is in his first year in the position , was through this year the HS principal) has been really good about keeping us up to date. He's been sending out daily FAQ's that he's received and communication has ben really good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 07, 2020, 07:49:25 AM

Mine is the school system that couldn't fire a woman for failing to protect her students (Altressa Cox-Blackwell (https://www.journalinquirer.com/towns/enfield/embattled-assistant-principal-to-become-dean-at-enfield-high-must-drop-discrimination-claims-documents-say/article_3b5eb576-106f-11e6-80e8-2fc4bf3c2617.html); she was given a box of bullets found on a bus, and a complaint of an assault against a student and failed to report both to her superiors and the police; when disciplined, she claimed it was because she was a woman, of color, and of age.  In exchange for her dropping her claim she was promoted to "Dean" of the local high school) and who employed another senior administrator whose advice to me - when my wife and I went in to discuss the bullying being experienced by my stepdaughter - was "well, it's April, and she graduates in June; can we just ride it out?"

So, yeah.  All that factors into the equation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 07, 2020, 07:51:50 AM

That is fucked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 08:14:28 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 07, 2020, 07:51:50 AM

That is fucked.

That is beyond fucked

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Quote from: Orbert on August 06, 2020, 05:15:55 PM

That's the whole problem, though.  I should not have been left up to personal choice, because we know -- and have now seen irrefutable evidence -- that people will not play by the rules and will not put others ahead of their own selfish selves.  Some, but not nearly the huge majority that it would take to make it work.

What should have happened from the beginning was a nationwide mandate.  Stay the fuck home!  Celebrities were making TV and radio spots telling people to stay home, and some people somewhere hoped that that would be enough.  Nice try.  Some countries literally imposed stay-at-home orders, imposed martial law, and arrested people for violating it.  Crack down hard to start with; you can always ease up later.  That's what the scientists and medical experts said, but nobody wanted to do that.  So now that the population is being ravaged, they're trying to crack down a little bit, even as other areas still don't get it and are opening up.

Once again, there are countries that have (mostly) beaten this.  We have models we could have followed.  "But the economy!  But my freedoms!"  Fuck that.  The economy and your freedoms don't matter if we're all dead.

Nobody has beaten this virus, yet.  People will ultimately decide for themselves whether or not to obey the guidelines.  Mandated or not.  If the economy and freedoms vanish, we're all dead anyway.  You really want government imposing their will?  It's still "we the people" right?  Individuals need to make the right choice.  Follow the guidelines to slow the spread.  Don't follow the guidelines and risk sickness and possible death.  It's that simple.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 07, 2020, 09:02:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 07, 2020, 07:36:37 AM

Our plan is that half of the kids (A-L) are going in person Mon & Tues, while the other half (M-Z) is remote. All students are remote on Wednesday. On Thurs and Fri, Group M-Z will be in person and Group A-L will be remote.

My friend in NJ is a teacher and just got his plan for opening this fall.  Almost exactly the same except they are breaking it into four groups, so kids are only in 1 day a week, everyone home Wednesday and for whatever reason, everyone home the first week.  And they will adjust as necessary.  He's not happy, not because he has to go back in, but because of how difficult this will be to follow all the guidlines.  He actually wants to go back because he feels the remote approach doesn't work well at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 07, 2020, 09:07:48 AM

The sort of cherry on the sundae, that woman - ACB - handed my stepdaughter her diploma.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 07, 2020, 10:22:29 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Nobody has beaten this virus, yet.

There are countries which have flattened the curve and are returning to normal now.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

You really want government imposing their will?  It's still "we the people" right?

Yes and yes.  The government is also "for the people".  We have countless laws to protect the safety of all citizens.  Traffic laws, laws against theft and murder, laws regarding how to conduct business.  This is no different.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Individuals need to make the right choice.  Follow the guidelines to slow the spread.  Don't follow the guidelines and risk sickness and possible death.  It's that simple.

No, it's not that simple.  If people want to not follow the guidelines, it is others who are affected.  That is the difference I've repeatedly tried to emphasize, but no one seems to get it.  And again, people have proven over and over that they will not make the right choice.  Saying "they need to... it's that simple" doesn't change a thing.  People don't even act in their own self-interest, they sure as hell won't act in the interest of others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 10:42:05 AM

Quote from: Orbert on August 07, 2020, 10:22:29 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Nobody has beaten this virus, yet.

There are countries which have flattened the curve and are returning to normal now.

Are there any that reopened their economies a month or more ago that aren't seeing increases in new cases (apart from a couple that only had a few cases in the first place)? I thought it was pretty universal that they are. Flattening the curve isn't enough. Going back to any semblance of normal will cause cases to increase again unless the virus is completely eradicated from an area and the can keep new people out. Eradication of the virus is virtually impossible in the current environment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 10:48:12 AM

You look at what Australia is doing, and that is certainly restricting freedoms.  FWIW, I don't have any issue with their approach.  China welding doors shut to keep people in their apt complexes... that's a bit much.

I'm still unclear what legal and constitutional freedoms are being encroached in the US?

Rules and restrictions in the name of public health are not new.  Let's see a restaurant cook staff not wear a hair net (in the name of FREEDOM!), and see how well that goes over.

And yes, economies can gradually open, and still keep case counts low.  Ontario (population of about 14.5M people) is still only in double-digit daily new cases, and have re-opened virtually everything - still with quite a few limitations on things like how many people can congregate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 07, 2020, 10:57:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 07, 2020, 09:07:48 AM

The sort of cherry on the sundae, that woman - ACB - handed my stepdaughter her diploma.

AWESOME!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 11:40:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 10:48:12 AM

I'm still unclear what legal and constitutional freedoms are being encroached in the US?

When people are saying their freedoms are being taken away, I don't think many think they are being stripped of constitutional freedoms. There are not any constitutional freedoms being taken away as far as I know. However, I was free to walk in a store without a mask on two weeks ago. Now I'm not. So there was a freedom taken away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 07, 2020, 11:51:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 11:40:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 10:48:12 AM

I'm still unclear what legal and constitutional freedoms are being encroached in the US?

When people are saying their freedoms are being taken away, I don't think many think they are being stripped of constitutional freedoms. There are not any constitutional freedoms being taken away as far as I know. However, I was free to walk in a store without a mask on two weeks ago. Now I'm not. So there was a freedom taken away.

But that's a privilege. Several weeks ago I was free to pay less for gas than I am now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 11:58:37 AM

Quote from: Adami on August 07, 2020, 11:51:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 11:40:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 10:48:12 AM

I'm still unclear what legal and constitutional freedoms are being encroached in the US?

When people are saying their freedoms are being taken away, I don't think many think they are being stripped of constitutional freedoms. There are not any constitutional freedoms being taken away as far as I know. However, I was free to walk in a store without a mask on two weeks ago. Now I'm not. So there was a freedom taken away.

But that's a privilege. Several weeks ago I was free to pay less for gas than I am now.

That's not really a good comparison at all. One is the free market pricing a commodity, the other is the government changing the rules on public behavior, and mostly unilaterally by governors without any oversight by the legislative branches of state governments. I get your point though. I just think it's silly to think anytime government takes away people's freedoms (or privilege I guess?) to act in a way that has been considered to be completely normal for basically all of human history that you're not going to get a little push back. Taking away freedoms, no matter how trivial they may seem, shouldn't be taken lightly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 07, 2020, 12:00:32 PM

They're not being taken lightly. But it comes down to "do I consider this a matter of public safety?"

The truth is that while most people say yes, enough people say no to essentially ruin it for everyone. That's why the government steps in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 12:03:24 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 07, 2020, 10:22:29 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Nobody has beaten this virus, yet.

There are countries which have flattened the curve and are returning to normal now.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

You really want government imposing their will?  It's still "we the people" right?

Yes and yes.  The government is also "for the people".  We have countless laws to protect the safety of all citizens.  Traffic laws, laws against theft and murder, laws regarding how to conduct business.  This is no different.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Individuals need to make the right choice.  Follow the guidelines to slow the spread.  Don't follow the guidelines and risk sickness and possible death.  It's that simple.

No, it's not that simple.  If people want to not follow the guidelines, it is others who are affected.  That is the difference I've repeatedly tried to emphasize, but no one seems to get it.  And again, people have proven over and over that they will not make the right choice.  Saying "they need to... it's that simple" doesn't change a thing.  People don't even act in their own self-interest, they sure as hell won't act in the interest of others.

I'm not affected by others who don't follow the guidelines because I made an individual choice to follow the guidelines for nearly 5 months now.  It works.  It should be just as simple for anyone else who decides to make the right choice.  You're saying there is a "one size fits all" solution.  That's logistically impossible.  Every country is different and most countries have considerably less people than the U.S.  There are also many different cultures to consider and the types of governments who run them.  Do you actually think that any law can be 100% enforced anywhere in the world?  No one is completely safe and can't be completely protected.  So, it comes down to an individual choice once again.  Nobody else can make that choice for you.  Do the right thing and stay clear from those who don't.  Be accountable, take responsibility and stop waiting for someone else to do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on August 07, 2020, 12:00:32 PM

They're not being taken lightly. But it comes down to "do I consider this a matter of public safety?"

The truth is that while most people say yes, enough people say no to essentially ruin it for everyone. That's why the government steps in.

I get that sure. I don't agree with the way it's being done more than the mandates being passed, but in the end what I think doesn't matter I guess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 12:30:11 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on August 07, 2020, 12:00:32 PM

They're not being taken lightly. But it comes down to "do I consider this a matter of public safety?"

The truth is that while most people say yes, enough people say no to essentially ruin it for everyone. That's why the government steps in.

I get that sure. I don't agree with the way it's being done more than the mandates being passed, but in the end what I think doesn't matter I guess.

And with any additional reviews, oversights, committees etc... days/weeks/months pass.  It was clear from the outset that days of inaction quite literally cost thousands of lives.  MirrorMask was reiterating it to us from Italy - gov't inaction killed people.  Literally.  I'm not using that word figuratively.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 12:41:40 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 12:30:11 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on August 07, 2020, 12:00:32 PM

They're not being taken lightly. But it comes down to "do I consider this a matter of public safety?"

The truth is that while most people say yes, enough people say no to essentially ruin it for everyone. That's why the government steps in.

I get that sure. I don't agree with the way it's being done more than the mandates being passed, but in the end what I think doesn't matter I guess.

And with any additional reviews, oversights, committees etc... days/weeks/months pass.  It was clear from the outset that days of inaction quite literally cost thousands of lives.  MirrorMask was reiterating it to us from Italy - gov't inaction killed people.  Literally.  I'm not using that word figuratively.

I was fine with governors taking action immediately. That's why those powers are in place to do things faster than can be done with normal legislative channels. I don't think that 5 months later the legislature should continue to be shut out of the decisions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on August 07, 2020, 03:04:57 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 07, 2020, 03:41:47 AM

Saying tinfoil hat look who's wearing eye protection and face masks now ???

For someone who mistrusts the government and actual science, pretending to know better, it’s astounding that you take random crap, conspiracy theories and general bullshit thrown together because of coincidental correlation for granted without any criticism whatsoever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on August 08, 2020, 04:39:04 PM

They've  shown it to be mistrusted several times.The problem is once you see it,it can't be unseen.

This covid story is one big 911 on mankind or do you still believe some muslims who never had flown before knew how to crash those big airplanes into the twin towers ??

But you don't have to believe me,if you want to know do your own research.Take the red or the blue pill

i know one thing and that is that all is connected

It's only a matter of time before the astonishing will rise   :hefdaddy

You call it conspiracy a term made up by fbi to discredit  others.Isn't it weird that people who run this shit are related?Coincidence doesn't excist.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 08, 2020, 06:04:48 PM

No phrase extinguishes all credibility to an argument quite like 'do your own research', it's the siren's call of the anti-vaxxer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2020, 06:08:02 PM

'Do your own research,' as if somehow a google search for conspiracy sites and youtube videos is equal to the untold millions of hours of accumulated experience and research from people who actually do this kind of thing for a fucking living.

That said, a phrase that applies here is "you can't use logic to talk someone out of a position they didn't use logic to talk themselves into,' so for the sake of my blood pressure I'll leave this alone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 08, 2020, 06:32:35 PM

At least, I get the virus is real. It's real because they're Nefarious and would do something like release a virus.

Those experts, warned us way before of a likely chance a pandemic would occur. That is when the Governments should've started to at least do something to be prepared. With how things turned out, they didn't prepare much if at all

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 08, 2020, 06:35:22 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on August 08, 2020, 06:32:35 PM

At least, I get the virus is real. It's real because they're Nefarious and would do something like release a virus.

Those experts, warned us way before of a likely chance a pandemic would occur. That is when the Governments should've started to at least do something to be prepared. With how things turned out, they didn't prepare much if at all

Some governments did, for example South Korea slam dunked the fucking thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on August 08, 2020, 07:40:28 PM

Without jumping too deep in to the discussion about laws and restrictions, remember that, at least for the US, restrictions were never meant to eliminate the spread. It was always to "slow the spread" and "flatten the curve."

Quote from: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 12:41:40 PM

I was fine with governors taking action immediately. That's why those powers are in place to do things faster than can be done with normal legislative channels. I don't think that 5 months later the legislature should continue to be shut out of the decisions.

Right, many state constitutions (to the best of my knowledge, it applies to WA anyway) limit "emergency powers" to 30 days. Anything beyond that needs legislative involvement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 08, 2020, 09:06:20 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 08, 2020, 06:04:48 PM

No phrase extinguishes all credibility to an argument quite like 'do your own research', it's the siren's call of the anti-vaxxer.

Actually, i thought that “its all connected” was the hallmark of the cray-cray.

“Do your own research” really means “disregard peer reviewed research”.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on August 08, 2020, 11:42:44 PM

What about ‘coincidence doesn’t exist’ though?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 09, 2020, 02:09:53 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2020, 06:08:02 PM

'Do your own research,' as if somehow a google search for conspiracy sites and youtube videos is equal to the untold millions of hours of accumulated experience and research from people who actually do this kind of thing for a fucking living.

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 08, 2020, 09:06:20 PM

“Do your own research” really means “disregard peer reviewed research”.

 :hefdaddy

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 09, 2020, 05:52:33 AM

I realize I forgot to add ... "of and by scholars and professionals"

I was skipping over Dreammajesty's posts initially, but now it's  :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 09, 2020, 07:43:06 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 08, 2020, 09:06:20 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 08, 2020, 06:04:48 PM

No phrase extinguishes all credibility to an argument quite like 'do your own research', it's the siren's call of the anti-vaxxer.

Actually, i thought that “its all connected” was the hallmark of the cray-cray.

“Do your own research” really means “disregard peer reviewed research”.

To me 'do your own research' basically translates as 'I don't have a fucking leg to stand on so I'm throwing the onus of proof for my ridiculous claims back on you'

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 09, 2020, 07:44:03 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 09, 2020, 07:43:06 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 08, 2020, 09:06:20 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 08, 2020, 06:04:48 PM

No phrase extinguishes all credibility to an argument quite like 'do your own research', it's the siren's call of the anti-vaxxer.

Actually, i thought that “its all connected” was the hallmark of the cray-cray.

“Do your own research” really means “disregard peer reviewed research”.

To me 'do your own research' basically translates as 'I don't have a fucking leg to stand on so I'm throwing the onus of proof for my ridiculous claims back on you'

That too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 09, 2020, 08:07:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on August 08, 2020, 06:32:35 PM

At least, I get the virus is real. It's real because they're Nefarious and would do something like release a virus.

Those experts, warned us way before of a likely chance a pandemic would occur. That is when the Governments should've started to at least do something to be prepared. With how things turned out, they didn't prepare much if at all

In 2014, President Obama urged the formation of a group researching pandemics and their longterm effects (video at link (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-pandemic-preparedness-2014/)).  I'm sure I've seen this group referred to as the Pandemic Preparedness Committee, or something like that, but I can't find a source right now.

In 2018, President Trump began dismantling the team in charge of pandemic response, firing its leadership and disbanding the team.

In 2020, COVID-19 hit us.  President Trump blamed the Obama administration for not doing anything to prepare for such a thing.

Snopes (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-pandemic-preparedness-2014/).

Also, I understand that it might be impossible to continue this without getting political, but these are facts.  Conspiracy theorists seem to hate Snopes. I don't know any intelligent people who don't believe Snopes.  They are the fact-checkers for the fact-checkers. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on August 09, 2020, 02:57:51 PM

I have a friend that lives in Florida. She has a brother that has a kid and a wife who he just found out was pregnant. They go out to eat all the time, and never wear masks. 

He just got tested and is positive for covid. And then continues to go out to restaurants because he "feels fine.

At this point I don't even know if deaths will make these people see reason. I try my hardest to remain optimistic. But more and more I hear things like that, and it really is making me lose faith in humanity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 09, 2020, 03:37:41 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 08, 2020, 04:39:04 PM

They've  shown it to be mistrusted several times.The problem is once you see it,it can't be unseen.

This covid story is one big 911 on mankind or do you still believe some muslims who never had flown before knew how to crash those big airplanes into the twin towers ??

But you don't have to believe me,if you want to know do your own research.Take the red or the blue pill

i know one thing and that is that all is connected

It's only a matter of time before the astonishing will rise   :hefdaddy

You call it conspiracy a term made up by fbi to discredit  others.Isn't it weird that people who run this shit are related?Coincidence doesn't excist.

You didn't happen to attend a certain graduation party in Massachusetts today, did you?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 10, 2020, 06:15:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on August 04, 2020, 08:03:46 AM

First day of school at a high school in Georgia. This is going to go well... ::)

(https://preview.redd.it/sp44ts8rize51.jpg?width=576&auto=webp&s=aa9580f0a429e2a518afbe66e7a5078f8092ed44)

This school is closing for two days for a deep clean after six students and three staff members tested positive for Corona after just the first few days.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/08/09/nine-people-test-positive-coronavirus-georgia-school-where-photos-packed-hallways-went-viral/?hpid=hp_hp-banner-main_school-photo-1145am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on August 10, 2020, 07:53:14 AM

^
I read that in the paper this morning.  Love the administration stating that mandating masks would infringe on one's 'freedom'.  Gee, I wonder what happens when a student violates their dress code.

Doesn't a dress code violate one's freedom?  You betcha :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 10, 2020, 08:38:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 07, 2020, 12:30:11 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 07, 2020, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on August 07, 2020, 12:00:32 PM

They're not being taken lightly. But it comes down to "do I consider this a matter of public safety?"

The truth is that while most people say yes, enough people say no to essentially ruin it for everyone. That's why the government steps in.

I get that sure. I don't agree with the way it's being done more than the mandates being passed, but in the end what I think doesn't matter I guess.

And with any additional reviews, oversights, committees etc... days/weeks/months pass.  It was clear from the outset that days of inaction quite literally cost thousands of lives.  MirrorMask was reiterating it to us from Italy - gov't inaction killed people.  Literally.  I'm not using that word figuratively.

Are you figuratively using the word literally, or are you literally using figuratively literally?  :)

I kid.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 10, 2020, 08:45:06 AM

I read the various replies here, and I hestitate to accept there are direct causes and effects here.  I live in an area that seems to work against the popular wisdom.   Cuomo reacted swiftly, and decisively... and had a hotspot on his hands.  We've here in CT NOT mandated masks or significantly curtailed any freedoms, and we've avoided hotspots (in fact, have had one of the better "records" vis-a-vis COVID).  I frankly have not made one decision on COVID based on Trump or Biden, and I think it's scapegoating to say Trump is personally culpable for deaths of Americans. 

I think this is far more complicated than the quips and snarks seem to indicate.  It's "fun" (I guess; I find it irksome, frankly) to ridicule and make fun of those that don't do things the way we would do them, but that's life in a democracy; frankly, MOST people don't do things the way I would and I find a way to coexist.  There are 1,000's of examples of that almost daily, ranging from inconsequential things like carts in the corral (I'm not making a joke here) to important things like vaccines and masks.

I recognize this isn't the P/R version of the thread, but the conversation seems to be consistently headed in that direction.  I personally think that many of the people mocking others for their feelings on "freedom" (and I am not referencing any one person here) can be just as insensitive to others as they claim those are that don't wear masks.   We have a right to our opinions and viewpoints, even when they are wrong, and with 325 million people (and counting!) it's foolhardy to suggest that we're at a point where FULL AGREEMENT on any issue is possible.  The best we can do is consensus and compromise, and I can't speak for anyone else, but leading with "you're stupid, do things my way" doesn't really inspire me to cooperate.

If and when they elevate to a level that it becomes a law, then that's a different story.  That's the point at which we can force others to our collective will.  But for all the ridicule that Trump has gotten for "failing" - which he has; this is not a zero sum game here - I do not see one bill passed by the DEMOCRAT House demanding these things.  In fact, Nancy Pelosi (who I like, by the way) consistently points the finger at Trump blaming him (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/28/politics/pelosi-masks-federal-mandate/index.html) (and I believe setting up an issue for Biden to gain advantage in the campaign homestretch).  If that's not as selfish in its own way as the non-mask-wearers, I don't know what is.

I don't see this as a political issue by one side.  I see this as a political issue for some on both sides, and I see this as a NON-political issue for others on both sides.  I can honestly say that while I've opted to wear a mask at all times (though, full disclosure, there was a party for my stepson's return from Afghanistan yesterday, outside, and I did not wear a mask; however I had it with me if necessary, and did social distance fairly diligently) it's never been a "political" issue for me, it's been a psychological one. I feel better knowing I did my part.  It's foolish of me to expect that all people will feel as I do, especially when for some others "doing my part" translates into telling the rest of us how to live our lives.     

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 10, 2020, 09:03:22 AM

Saw a meme (can't link it here because it's from a personal message) of a 37 year old's facebook posts saying they wouldn't be wearing a mask, that person is now dead from covid.  I wasn't sure if that was fake, but here's the article on that person https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/07/10/year-old-port-clinton-war-vet-dies-covid-complications-fourth-july/ (https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/07/10/year-old-port-clinton-war-vet-dies-covid-complications-fourth-july/)

Quote

“We were blown away, you know? You hear about this virus and you don’t expect it to affect people, younger people like ourselves,” said Nick Conley, who was Rose’s friend.

Conley met Rose through a shared love of video games. He is crushed that he lost his friend to this virus, but he’s also hurt by something Rose posted on Facebook back in April.

That post has now been shared more than 10,000 times. It reads, “Let’s make this clear. I’m not buying a mask. I’ve made it this far by not buying into that damn hype.”

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 09:11:39 AM

There are enough actions (or lack of) and words directly from Trump, that make him culpable (deserving of blame) for many missteps in his COVID response.  Many of these were shown to be motivated more by personal gain than by responsibility to the country.  Do we know how many deaths this actually resulted in?  No, but it is Reasonable to think it is more than zero.  This is not a court of law where we need direct causation.  It is about owning and accepting the responsibility of being POTUS and having the buck stop with you.  It is about making decisions that are for the good of the people instead of the good of the image or campaign.  It is reasonable to say his decisions likely caused  lives.
His decisions regarding COVID -19, that likely caused lives, happened even years prior.  Dismantling the Pandemic team and plan The Black Guy put together, and not stocking the shelves with PPE were decisions that directly caused delays in our response.  Downplaying everything hoping it would go away, mixed messages, and hoax bullshit, didn’t help either.  Actions he took That were self serving, or out of spite likely caused death....maybe even a LOT of death.

EDIT: And my apologies, as while this post is about Covid-19, it is clearly political as well.  Mods, please move if you feel it is not appropriate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 10, 2020, 10:14:57 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 10, 2020, 09:03:22 AM

Saw a meme (can't link it here because it's from a personal message) of a 37 year old's facebook posts saying they wouldn't be wearing a mask, that person is now dead from covid.  I wasn't sure if that was fake, but here's the article on that person https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/07/10/year-old-port-clinton-war-vet-dies-covid-complications-fourth-july/ (https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/07/10/year-old-port-clinton-war-vet-dies-covid-complications-fourth-july/)

Quote

“We were blown away, you know? You hear about this virus and you don’t expect it to affect people, younger people like ourselves,” said Nick Conley, who was Rose’s friend.

Conley met Rose through a shared love of video games. He is crushed that he lost his friend to this virus, but he’s also hurt by something Rose posted on Facebook back in April.

That post has now been shared more than 10,000 times. It reads, “Let’s make this clear. I’m not buying a mask. I’ve made it this far by not buying into that damn hype.”

I've read more than a few kinds of these stories - one recently (https://dallasvoice.com/a-harsh-lesson-in-the-reality-of-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR2Et1X7wnajcoPP19b3VV-s4oiLsH0HV1apczY6uHGvE7t8Z5JZfDqwN3w)* where someone hosted a large family gathering/dinner party because they thought the virus was a hoax ("scamdemic").  Pretty much everyone caught COVID, several spread it second hand, and at least 1 died.

There are surely thousands more of these kinds of stories.

* - this is very much a P/R article.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 10, 2020, 10:15:53 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 09:11:39 AM

His decisions regarding COVID -19, that likely caused lives, happened even years prior.  Dismantling the Pandemic team and plan The Black Guy put together, and not stocking the shelves with PPE were decisions that directly caused delays in our response. 

He called him The Black Guy??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 10, 2020, 10:15:53 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 09:11:39 AM

His decisions regarding COVID -19, that likely caused lives, happened even years prior.  Dismantling the Pandemic team and plan The Black Guy put together, and not stocking the shelves with PPE were decisions that directly caused delays in our response. 

He called him The Black Guy??

Just a nod to Dave Manchester.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 10, 2020, 11:04:13 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 09:11:39 AM

There are enough actions (or lack of) and words directly from Trump, that make him culpable (deserving of blame) for many missteps in his COVID response.  Many of these were shown to be motivated more by personal gain than by responsibility to the country.  Do we know how many deaths this actually resulted in?  No, but it is Reasonable to think it is more than zero.  This is not a court of law where we need direct causation.  It is about owning and accepting the responsibility of being POTUS and having the buck stop with you.  It is about making decisions that are for the good of the people instead of the good of the image or campaign.  It is reasonable to say his decisions likely caused  lives.

I agree with you up to the last sentence.  Suffice to say, most people aren't as precise in their language as you are (that's a compliment). 

Quote

His decisions regarding COVID -19, that likely caused lives, happened even years prior.  Dismantling the Pandemic team and plan The Black Guy put together, and not stocking the shelves with PPE were decisions that directly caused delays in our response.  Downplaying everything hoping it would go away, mixed messages, and hoax bullshit, didn’t help either.  Actions he took That were self serving, or out of spite likely caused death....maybe even a LOT of death.

All bad, all avoidable, and all things that are eminently undesireable in a President.  With all the layers in between, there are a lot of interim steps.   I know that "the law" isn't a popular thing in these questions, but there's a difference between "cause" and "proximate cause". 

Quote

EDIT: And my apologies, as while this post is about Covid-19, it is clearly political as well.  Mods, please move if you feel it is not appropriate.

It's like separating out the barley and the malt from beer, though.  They are inexorably intertwined, it seems. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 10, 2020, 11:36:48 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 09:11:39 AM

There are enough actions (or lack of) and words directly from Trump, that make him culpable (deserving of blame) for many missteps in his COVID response.  Many of these were shown to be motivated more by personal gain than by responsibility to the country.  Do we know how many deaths this actually resulted in?  No, but it is Reasonable to think it is more than zero.  This is not a court of law where we need direct causation.  It is about owning and accepting the responsibility of being POTUS and having the buck stop with you.  It is about making decisions that are for the good of the people instead of the good of the image or campaign.  It is reasonable to say his decisions likely caused  lives.
His decisions regarding COVID -19, that likely caused lives, happened even years prior.  Dismantling the Pandemic team and plan The Black Guy put together, and not stocking the shelves with PPE were decisions that directly caused delays in our response.  Downplaying everything hoping it would go away, mixed messages, and hoax bullshit, didn’t help either.  Actions he took That were self serving, or out of spite likely caused death....maybe even a LOT of death.

EDIT: And my apologies, as while this post is about Covid-19, it is clearly political as well.  Mods, please move if you feel it is not appropriate.

This pandemic was an opportunity for trump to show 'real' leadership. Not deregulate everything and then get a magic economy.....or any of the other crap he's done....but actual leadership.

There's no reason with the resources that America has that all (50) Governors and the White House Cabinet shouldn't have been meeting way back in December/January to prepare for COVID.....to get a concise plan of attack nationwide. There shouldn't be fifty different approaches to this.

Same with the Governors when it comes to schools. Leaving each District up to their own devices is freaking havoc. There should be a universal approach to this thing...with whatever funding needed for the influx of online teaching help/aides to kids/ etc etc being provided by the Federal government. I'm not a huge 'government do it for me' guy but a pandemic is an instance where I expect the Federal government to have their shit together and 'do it for us'. This entire thing was bungled from the beginning because of politics and narcissistic ass hats (on both sides) refusing to actually lead.

***eric....that's an emotional post of which I'm sure I'll have to walk back a comment or two later  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 10, 2020, 11:46:40 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 10, 2020, 11:36:48 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 09:11:39 AM

There are enough actions (or lack of) and words directly from Trump, that make him culpable (deserving of blame) for many missteps in his COVID response.  Many of these were shown to be motivated more by personal gain than by responsibility to the country.  Do we know how many deaths this actually resulted in?  No, but it is Reasonable to think it is more than zero.  This is not a court of law where we need direct causation.  It is about owning and accepting the responsibility of being POTUS and having the buck stop with you.  It is about making decisions that are for the good of the people instead of the good of the image or campaign.  It is reasonable to say his decisions likely caused  lives.
His decisions regarding COVID -19, that likely caused lives, happened even years prior.  Dismantling the Pandemic team and plan The Black Guy put together, and not stocking the shelves with PPE were decisions that directly caused delays in our response.  Downplaying everything hoping it would go away, mixed messages, and hoax bullshit, didn’t help either.  Actions he took That were self serving, or out of spite likely caused death....maybe even a LOT of death.

EDIT: And my apologies, as while this post is about Covid-19, it is clearly political as well.  Mods, please move if you feel it is not appropriate.

This pandemic was an opportunity for trump to show 'real' leadership. Not deregulate everything and then get a magic economy.....or any of the other crap he's done....but actual leadership.

There's no reason with the resources that America has that all (50) Governors and the White House Cabinet shouldn't have been meeting way back in December/January to prepare for COVID.....to get a concise plan of attack nationwide. There shouldn't be fifty different approaches to this.

Same with the Governors when it comes to schools. Leaving each District up to their own devices is freaking havoc. There should be a universal approach to this thing...with whatever funding needed for the influx of online teaching help/aides to kids/ etc etc being provided by the Federal government. I'm not a huge 'government do it for me' guy but a pandemic is an instance where I expect the Federal government to have their shit together and 'do it for us'. This entire thing was bungled from the beginning because of politics and narcissistic ass hats (on both sides) refusing to actually lead.

***eric....that's an emotional post of which I'm sure I'll have to walk back a comment or two later  :lol

Eh, I agree with pretty much all of this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 10, 2020, 11:53:52 AM

Yeah, nothing to walk back there at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on August 10, 2020, 11:57:34 AM

That post will be exempt from the walking of the back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 10, 2020, 01:10:18 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 10, 2020, 11:36:48 AM

Same with the Governors when it comes to schools. Leaving each District up to their own devices is freaking havoc.

Tell me about it. Our district has pivoted for the third time now and school hasn't even started yet. Every week they are polling parents with another plan on the table. Happened today. Got a call that 5 days a week in school is now not an option. Now they are pivoting between all e-learning or partial in school and partial e-learning. 2 weeks from the start of school and we honestly have no idea what to plan for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 10:42:16 AM

So Russia has a vaccine? Color me skeptical

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on August 11, 2020, 10:47:50 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 10:42:16 AM

So Russia has a vaccine? Color me skeptical

Yeah, I'm fairly sure this is not true. I'd chalk it up to another PR stunt from our government for now, we'll see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 10:54:57 AM

Quote from: Evermind on August 11, 2020, 10:47:50 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 10:42:16 AM

So Russia has a vaccine? Color me skeptical

Yeah, I'm fairly sure this is not true. I'd chalk it up to another PR stunt from our government for now, we'll see.

I had previously read that Russia was hacking medical companies that were working on vaccines.  If that's true, it would be interesting if they stole the data and used that to rush their own vaccine.  Like, I'd still be skeptical because this "vaccine" didn't do phase 3 trials, but at least I'd feel like it came from a place of legitimacy, even if stolen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 11, 2020, 11:35:14 AM

According to the BBC, it's legit, and Putin's own daughter has been administered the vaccine (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53735718).

That's actually detail and specificity that makes me LESS likely to believe it, since Putin has been notoriously tight-lipped about his daughters in the past. It seems an unnecessary level of revelation; there are others he could have used to make the point and had it be more "in keeping".   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 11, 2020, 11:47:52 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 11, 2020, 11:35:14 AM

According to the BBC, it's legit, and Putin's own daughter has been administered the vaccine (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53735718).

That's actually detail and specificity that makes me LESS likely to believe it, since Putin has been notoriously tight-lipped about his daughters in the past. It seems an unnecessary level of revelation; there are others he could have used to make the point and had it be more "in keeping".

But this way people will think "oh, the great and wise lord Putin tested it on his daughter, he surely wouldn't put her safety and health at risk if it wasn't true!!!".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 11, 2020, 12:59:15 PM

Quote from: Orbert on August 07, 2020, 10:22:29 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Nobody has beaten this virus, yet.

There are countries which have flattened the curve and are returning to normal now.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

You really want government imposing their will?  It's still "we the people" right?

Yes and yes.  The government is also "for the people".  We have countless laws to protect the safety of all citizens.  Traffic laws, laws against theft and murder, laws regarding how to conduct business.  This is no different.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 07, 2020, 08:46:38 AM

Individuals need to make the right choice.  Follow the guidelines to slow the spread.  Don't follow the guidelines and risk sickness and possible death.  It's that simple.

No, it's not that simple.  If people want to not follow the guidelines, it is others who are affected.  That is the difference I've repeatedly tried to emphasize, but no one seems to get it.  And again, people have proven over and over that they will not make the right choice.  Saying "they need to... it's that simple" doesn't change a thing. People don't even act in their own self-interest, they sure as hell won't act in the interest of others.

Hammer, nail. Nail, Hammer.  :|


(https://ametia.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/hammer-and-nail.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 11, 2020, 02:04:20 PM

Big Ten conference officially nixed football and all fall sports. Ugh! College football is done this year. Probably NFL too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 11, 2020, 02:09:00 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 11, 2020, 02:04:20 PM

Big Ten conference officially nixed football and all fall sports. Ugh! College football is done this year. Probably NFL too.

College Football is/was in a no-win situation.  No fans in the stands, what are they playing for?  TV revenue ... that's the fastest way to legitimize players forming a union.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 11, 2020, 02:22:03 PM

I agree. It just sucks. I love college football. They did the right thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 02:28:37 PM

Yea, the college football cancellation is pretty much expected but sucks for a big fan like myself.  It makes sense and of course was always about the money.  I think, like school openings, there's some good reason to go ahead with it but plenty of reason not to so you take the safety approach, we are dealing with kids here. 

I don't think college football cancelling has much impact on NFL though, that's a totally different animal.  If baseball is going to keep going, the NFL will go as well IMO.  At least those are paid professionals so I don't feel for them the way I feel for a college athlete if that makes sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 11, 2020, 02:56:38 PM

The argument for Football (NFL) is the distance between the players when in formation. I wonder if it's the same for Rugby.

Baseball, isn't really much physical person to person contact, so it's fine.

 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 03:02:43 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on August 11, 2020, 02:56:38 PM

The argument for Football (NFL) is the distance between the players when in formation. I wonder if it's the same for Rugby.

Baseball, isn't really much physical person to person contact, so it's fine.

I don't think it's either of those.  Take NBA for example, thats body on body without the pads.  But the NBA put everyone involved in a bubble to prevent COVID from getting in and so far it's been successful.  Doing that for football is really difficult because of how many people are involved.  MLB also didn't do a bubble, and so far we've seen outbreaks on teams and games being cancelled.  The NFL, like the other major leagues will do constant testing.  I don't think colleges have the ability to set up a bubble nor to do so much testing (they already were testing, I know PSU had not had any positive tests since they returned to campus, but people showed up positive and were isolated just like in the major leagues).  I think that's actually a reason to play the season according to some of the student athletes.  They feel its safer to be with the team who is tested and will be close quarters together so you know they won't be off on their own.  Sending them home, means they'll likely disobey the social distancing more often and increase risk of exposure.  This side was represented by the Clemson QB on twitter https://badgerswire.usatoday.com/2020/08/09/clemsons-star-qb-trevor-lawrence-has-strong-words-about-the-momentum-towards-cancelling-the-fall-season/ (https://badgerswire.usatoday.com/2020/08/09/clemsons-star-qb-trevor-lawrence-has-strong-words-about-the-momentum-towards-cancelling-the-fall-season/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 11, 2020, 03:11:29 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 03:02:43 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on August 11, 2020, 02:56:38 PM

The argument for Football (NFL) is the distance between the players when in formation. I wonder if it's the same for Rugby.

Baseball, isn't really much physical person to person contact, so it's fine.

I don't think it's either of those.  Take NBA for example, thats body on body without the pads.  But the NBA put everyone involved in a bubble to prevent COVID from getting in and so far it's been successful.  Doing that for football is really difficult because of how many people are involved.  MLB also didn't do a bubble, and so far we've seen outbreaks on teams and games being cancelled.  The NFL, like the other major leagues will do constant testing.  I don't think colleges have the ability to set up a bubble nor to do so much testing (they already were testing, I know PSU had not had any positive tests since they returned to campus, but people showed up positive and were isolated just like in the major leagues).  I think that's actually a reason to play the season according to some of the student athletes.  They feel its safer to be with the team who is tested and will be close quarters together so you know they won't be off on their own.  Sending them home, means they'll likely disobey the social distancing more often and increase risk of exposure.  This side was represented by the Clemson QB on twitter https://badgerswire.usatoday.com/2020/08/09/clemsons-star-qb-trevor-lawrence-has-strong-words-about-the-momentum-towards-cancelling-the-fall-season/ (https://badgerswire.usatoday.com/2020/08/09/clemsons-star-qb-trevor-lawrence-has-strong-words-about-the-momentum-towards-cancelling-the-fall-season/)

Yeah, that too. NBA did the right move.

Dammit, why can't I think of the term, The Offensive and Defensive line is what I mean, they're face to face huffing and breathing heavily.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 11, 2020, 06:28:58 PM

I bet you all a bazillion fucking dollars that this was the year Cal was going to the Rose Bowl too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 07:08:50 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 11, 2020, 06:28:58 PM

I bet you all a bazillion fucking dollars that this was the year Cal was going to the Rose Bowl too.

To lose to Penn State  ;)   :biggrin:

Honestly thought this was going to be a year for a run at the big10 championship, and it sucks. Its funny how they are saying maybe in the spring they'll play the season. There's so many unanswered questions and it totally breaks the NCAA in how it's a poor organization. SEC and ACC haven't cancelled, southern schools mostly. Imagine they play a season  :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on August 11, 2020, 07:11:56 PM

We have professional baseball players too stupid to adhere to the rules of social distancing, no way I trust college kids to do any better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 11, 2020, 08:50:09 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 11, 2020, 07:08:50 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 11, 2020, 06:28:58 PM

I bet you all a bazillion fucking dollars that this was the year Cal was going to the Rose Bowl too.

To lose to Penn State  ;)   :biggrin:

Honestly thought this was going to be a year for a run at the big10 championship, and it sucks. Its funny how they are saying maybe in the spring they'll play the season. There's so many unanswered questions and it totally breaks the NCAA in how it's a poor organization. SEC and ACC haven't cancelled, southern schools mostly. Imagine they play a season  :corn

Seriously though, we returned most of our offense and defense, and were in the talks for preseason top 25. At least we don't have to watch the press fellatiate Ohio St. all season.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on August 11, 2020, 09:11:54 PM

Quote from: T-ski on August 11, 2020, 07:11:56 PM

We have professional baseball players too stupid to adhere to the rules of social distancing, no way I trust college kids to do any better.

The argument many are making is that these (ahem...) student athletes will actually be better served to be within the structure of the program than they would be left to their own devices. No football? Alright, I'll just go out and party like a normal college student.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 09:35:56 AM

I know it has no use to argue with you, it's not possible with leftist antifa or blm supporters.Totally brainwashed and frightend for the government you have to obey them.Here they want to raid your house when you don't follow the rules get you under arrest and give you a fine.Children will put under quarantaine if the sneeze or cough or will be placed out of home.Yeah it will get very peacefull for everybody i hope it won't be true but it seems very dangerous.My hope for you is that Trump will save you.

As for the experts who studied this for years and and warning for this pandemic for years i'd say follow the money

Have a good laugh at me but still i  wish  you all lots of luck with the outcome of this event and will be safe and sound and your family's as well.

Btw even in astrology these times are mentioned

#saveourchildren

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 12, 2020, 09:37:37 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 09:35:56 AM

I know it has no use to argue with you, it's not possible with leftist antifa or blm supporters.Totally brainwashed and frightend for the government you have to obey them.Here they want to raid your house when you don't follow the rules get you under arrest and give you a fine.Children will put under quarantaine if the sneeze or cough or will be placed out of home.Yeah it will get very peacefull for everybody i hope it won't be true but it seems very dangerous.My hope for you is that Trump will save you.

As for the experts who studied this for years and and warning for this pandemic for years i'd say follow the money

Tin foil hats must get awfully hot this time of year. Imagine calling someone antifa/blm supporter in a derogatory way because they aren't a conspiracy theorist. Yiiiiiikes

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 12, 2020, 09:39:31 AM

Even in astrology, well shit, that's the clincher for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 12, 2020, 09:44:05 AM

"Astrology is one of the many tools of the devil" - Mama Boucher

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 12, 2020, 09:51:23 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 09:35:56 AM

I know it has no use to argue with you, it's not possible with leftist antifa or blm supporters.Totally brainwashed and frightend for the government you have to obey them.Here they want to raid your house when you don't follow the rules get you under arrest and give you a fine.Children will put under quarantaine if the sneeze or cough or will be placed out of home.Yeah it will get very peacefull for everybody i hope it won't be true but it seems very dangerous.My hope for you is that Trump will save you.

As for the experts who studied this for years and and warning for this pandemic for years i'd say follow the money

Have a good laugh at me but still i  wish  you all lots of luck with the outcome of this event and will be safe and sound and your family's as well.

Btw even in astrology these times are mentioned

#savethechildren

Every sentence you typed is insane.

I don't know WTF you're talking about, but you can take that crazy shit somewhere else.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 10:22:28 AM

If it ain't Dutch it ain't much right ?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TempusVox on August 12, 2020, 10:24:07 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 12, 2020, 09:51:23 AM

Every sentence you typed is insane.

I don't know WTF you're talking about, but you can take that crazy shit somewhere else.

Hef to the rescue...You beat me to it.

I just have to also say that this is the single greatest Mod response to any thread in the history of this or any iteration of this forum.
I love you dude, so much!

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on August 12, 2020, 10:31:51 AM

:tup

I actually lol’ed when I saw Hef’s response as well :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 12, 2020, 11:51:53 AM

Quote from: TempusVox on August 12, 2020, 10:24:07 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 12, 2020, 09:51:23 AM

Every sentence you typed is insane.

I don't know WTF you're talking about, but you can take that crazy shit somewhere else.

Hef to the rescue...You beat me to it.

I just have to also say that this is the single greatest Mod response to any thread in the history of this or any iteration of this forum.
I love you dude, so much!

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Correction, 2nd greatest.  Nothing will ever top the response to Janet1234.

Please don't ban him though ... these posts are the stuff of legend.  If anything, just change the avatar to a seagull - since all he does is swoop in, squawk a lot, shit over everything, then fly away.  A seagull avatar would seem appropriate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 12, 2020, 12:14:50 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 12, 2020, 11:51:53 AM

Please don't ban him though ... these posts are the stuff of legend.  If anything, just change the avatar to a seagull - since all he does is swoop in, squawk a lot, shit over everything, then fly away.  A seagull avatar would seem appropriate.

 :rollin

(https://i.imgflip.com/4b8ve4.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on August 12, 2020, 12:20:00 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 10:22:28 AM

If it ain't Dutch it ain't much right ?

Only my hot chocolate agrees with this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 12, 2020, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on August 12, 2020, 12:14:50 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 12, 2020, 11:51:53 AM

Please don't ban him though ... these posts are the stuff of legend.  If anything, just change the avatar to a seagull - since all he does is swoop in, squawk a lot, shit over everything, then fly away.  A seagull avatar would seem appropriate.

 :rollin

(https://i.imgflip.com/4b8ve4.jpg)

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 01:38:58 PM

Ja i know it is common to ridicule someone with a different opinion than yours,Often you'd be referred to as crazy,that's very brave.But i don't care.Please keep these posts for the future so we can see how it turned out.Cheers :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 12, 2020, 01:45:13 PM

We really should have a bingo card of conspiracy theory catch-phrases.

"9/11"
"you have to search for the ties"
"Bill Gates"
"Rockefellers"
“Do your own research”
"it's all connected"
"follow the money"

I mean, we're well on our way to a full card here.

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 01:38:58 PM

Ja i know it is common to ridicule someone with a different opinion than yours,Often you'd be referred to as crazy,that's very brave.But i don't care.Please keep these posts for the future so we can see how it turned out.Cheers :hat

Oh, I promise... we will.  The "crazy" isn't resulting from different opinions, it's on opinions that are clearly defiant to well established facts and science.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 12, 2020, 01:50:19 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 01:38:58 PM

Ja i know it is common to ridicule someone with a different opinion than yours,Often you'd be referred to as crazy,that's very brave.But i don't care.Please keep these posts for the future so we can see how it turned out.Cheers :hat

That's how everybody paints the picture when they're called out on dumb shit, bro. That's some elementary level rebuttal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on August 12, 2020, 02:30:10 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on August 12, 2020, 01:50:19 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 01:38:58 PM

Ja i know it is common to ridicule someone with a different opinion than yours,Often you'd be referred to as crazy,that's very brave.But i don't care.Please keep these posts for the future so we can see how it turned out.Cheers :hat

That's how everybody paints the picture when they're called out on dumb shit, bro. That's some elementary level rebuttal.

My hot chocolate response begs to differ.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 12, 2020, 02:38:47 PM

Not spacing out sentences has made me not even bother putting thought into what this person is writing  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 12, 2020, 02:42:43 PM

So.....I just went to a local gun shop to see about picking up a couple magazine holsters. Keep in mind I live in a VERY red/trumpian area. I walked into the shop wearing my mask and I was the only person wearing one between employees and the handful of patrons in there. Received many judgmental glares and.....when asked by an employee if there was anything he could help me with......I said "looking for a magazine holster"......he quickly said..."We don't have any of those" all the while holding the same glare I'd been getting from everyone.

I was looking right at the rack that had a pretty good assortment of magazine holsters. It was apparent I wasn't welcome there given the fact I was wearing a mask....and honestly, I should have walked out before that anyway because none of those nitwits were wearing one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on August 12, 2020, 02:46:38 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 12, 2020, 02:42:43 PM

So.....I just went to a local gun shop to see about picking up a couple magazine holsters. Keep in mind I live in a VERY red/trumpian area. I walked into the shop wearing my mask and I was the only person wearing one between employees and the handful of patrons in there. Received many judgmental glares and.....when asked by an employee if there was anything he could help me with......I said "looking for a magazine holster"......he quickly said..."We don't have any of those" all the while holding the same glare I'd been getting from everyone.

I was looking right at the rack that had a pretty good assortment of magazine holsters. It was apparent I wasn't welcome there given the fact I was wearing a mask....and honestly, I should have walked out before that anyway because none of those nitwits were wearing one.

Dumbasses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 12, 2020, 02:52:13 PM

Their loss on business. Idiots.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 12, 2020, 02:57:35 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 12, 2020, 02:52:13 PM

Their loss on business. Idiots.

I rarely visit this particular shop because of the general attitude of the employees. They've been pretty judgmental in the past even before this face mask thing today. They talk down to people a lot.....are very blunt and over all not friendly. That was the first time I've stepped into that shop in I'd say 7 or 8 years. I just need a couple more mag. holsters for some training I'm going through this saturday so I thought I'd go to them since they're only a couple minutes away. So, it looks like I'll make the drive out to my normal 'go to' store tomorrow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on August 12, 2020, 03:12:21 PM

I'm surprised they haven't gone out of business yet then.  Is there anyway that you can give a honest review about them and let them know about it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 12, 2020, 03:26:20 PM

This is what it has devolved to.

Congrats DreamMaj - your a proud papa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXXKKk6o9zM

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 12, 2020, 03:33:54 PM

Quote from: TempusVox on August 12, 2020, 10:24:07 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 12, 2020, 09:51:23 AM

Every sentence you typed is insane.

I don't know WTF you're talking about, but you can take that crazy shit somewhere else.

Hef to the rescue...You beat me to it.

I just have to also say that this is the single greatest Mod response to any thread in the history of this or any iteration of this forum.
I love you dude, so much!

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Love you pal!

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 12, 2020, 11:51:53 AM

Quote from: TempusVox on August 12, 2020, 10:24:07 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 12, 2020, 09:51:23 AM

Every sentence you typed is insane.

I don't know WTF you're talking about, but you can take that crazy shit somewhere else.

Hef to the rescue...You beat me to it.

I just have to also say that this is the single greatest Mod response to any thread in the history of this or any iteration of this forum.
I love you dude, so much!

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Correction, 2nd greatest.  Nothing will ever top the response to Janet1234.

Please don't ban him though ... these posts are the stuff of legend.  If anything, just change the avatar to a seagull - since all he does is swoop in, squawk a lot, shit over everything, then fly away.  A seagull avatar would seem appropriate.

lol Janet1234    fond memories

I didn't ban him.

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 12, 2020, 01:38:58 PM

Ja i know it is common to ridicule someone with a different opinion than yours,Often you'd be referred to as crazy,that's very brave.But i don't care.Please keep these posts for the future so we can see how it turned out.Cheers :hat

I just hope that when it turns out, well, the way it will turn out, you will remember that.

:djhef:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 12, 2020, 07:12:43 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 12, 2020, 02:42:43 PM

So.....I just went to a local gun shop to see about picking up a couple magazine holsters. Keep in mind I live in a VERY red/trumpian area. I walked into the shop wearing my mask and I was the only person wearing one between employees and the handful of patrons in there. Received many judgmental glares and.....when asked by an employee if there was anything he could help me with......I said "looking for a magazine holster"......he quickly said..."We don't have any of those" all the while holding the same glare I'd been getting from everyone.

I was looking right at the rack that had a pretty good assortment of magazine holsters. It was apparent I wasn't welcome there given the fact I was wearing a mask....and honestly, I should have walked out before that anyway because none of those nitwits were wearing one.

That amazes me as well. It's the opposite side of the non-mask wearing anger. Which I don't understand. I don't know why it bothers them so much, to not want to sell you a magazine and lose business. If that was me, I would've told the cashier something along the lines of, "I'm wearing this because I am susceptible and I don't chance getting any sickness, even the common cold"

Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 12, 2020, 02:57:35 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 12, 2020, 02:52:13 PM

Their loss on business. Idiots.

I rarely visit this particular shop because of the general attitude of the employees. They've been pretty judgmental in the past even before this face mask thing today. They talk down to people a lot.....are very blunt and over all not friendly. That was the first time I've stepped into that shop in I'd say 7 or 8 years. I just need a couple more mag. holsters for some training I'm going through this saturday so I thought I'd go to them since they're only a couple minutes away. So, it looks like I'll make the drive out to my normal 'go to' store tomorrow.

 :lol :lol

Well there is nothing you can do about that. Assholes will be assholes regardless of anything you say to them, a sad truth of life.

Quote from: Anguyen92 on August 12, 2020, 03:12:21 PM

I'm surprised they haven't gone out of business yet then.  Is there anyway that you can give a honest review about them and let them know about it?

and this. Write a review about their attitudes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 12, 2020, 07:26:54 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 12, 2020, 02:42:43 PM

So.....I just went to a local gun shop to see about picking up a couple magazine holsters. Keep in mind I live in a VERY red/trumpian area. I walked into the shop wearing my mask and I was the only person wearing one between employees and the handful of patrons in there. Received many judgmental glares and.....when asked by an employee if there was anything he could help me with......I said "looking for a magazine holster"......he quickly said..."We don't have any of those" all the while holding the same glare I'd been getting from everyone.

I was looking right at the rack that had a pretty good assortment of magazine holsters. It was apparent I wasn't welcome there given the fact I was wearing a mask....and honestly, I should have walked out before that anyway because none of those nitwits were wearing one.

Wow Gary, that's amazing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 12, 2020, 09:03:10 PM

Wait, Janet1234, what that the 'I'm a girl' one?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on August 12, 2020, 09:04:47 PM

I do not recall Janet1234.

And Gary's story is just so, so.... 2020.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 12, 2020, 09:11:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 12, 2020, 09:03:10 PM

Wait, Janet1234, what that the 'I'm a girl' one?

Close ... https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=21655.msg823730#msg823730

I forget the leadup to why "Janet" was such a troublesome poster, but Hef's response is one of my Top 5 favorite of all-time DTF posts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on August 12, 2020, 09:23:31 PM

Weird, I do not remember that at all.

And Hef really needs to work on getting to the crux of what he wants to say. He spends way too much time and verbiage meandering around. He should just get to the point more directly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 13, 2020, 06:40:56 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on August 12, 2020, 09:23:31 PM

Weird, I do not remember that at all.

And Hef really needs to work on getting to the crux of what he wants to say. He spends way too much time and verbiage meandering around. He should just get to the point more directly.

I'll work with him on that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 13, 2020, 07:49:46 AM

Pretty staggering number of students and teachers already quarantined in GA. 1K or more. I think it's easy to extrapolate and see where this goes, and at what speed, when all 50 states open up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 13, 2020, 10:14:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 13, 2020, 06:40:56 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on August 12, 2020, 09:23:31 PM

Weird, I do not remember that at all.

And Hef really needs to work on getting to the crux of what he wants to say. He spends way too much time and verbiage meandering around. He should just get to the point more directly.

I'll work with him on that.

:tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 13, 2020, 10:19:48 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 12, 2020, 09:11:05 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 12, 2020, 09:03:10 PM

Wait, Janet1234, what that the 'I'm a girl' one?

Close ... https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=21655.msg823730#msg823730

I forget the leadup to why "Janet" was such a troublesome poster, but Hef's response is one of my Top 5 favorite of all-time DTF posts.

I'd say 'Tapout shirt' would be close, and actually the first response to this thread is one of my all time favorites as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 13, 2020, 10:29:14 AM

Quote from: emtee on August 13, 2020, 07:49:46 AM

Pretty staggering number of students and teachers already quarantined in GA. 1K or more. I think it's easy to extrapolate and see where this goes, and at what speed, when all 50 states open up.

What's it been?  Less than 2 weeks?  As I'm pretty sure I said when re-openings were mandated... yeah, this will end well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 13, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 13, 2020, 10:29:14 AM

Quote from: emtee on August 13, 2020, 07:49:46 AM

Pretty staggering number of students and teachers already quarantined in GA. 1K or more. I think it's easy to extrapolate and see where this goes, and at what speed, when all 50 states open up.

What's it been?  Less than 2 weeks?  As I'm pretty sure I said when re-openings were mandated... yeah, this will end well.

Anyone who actually thought it'd end well is a fucking moron.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 13, 2020, 02:19:14 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 13, 2020, 07:49:46 AM

Pretty staggering number of students and teachers already quarantined in GA. 1K or more. I think it's easy to extrapolate and see where this goes, and at what speed, when all 50 states open up.

Just saw this story. It should be the blueprint of what not to do.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-193-quarantined-covid-successful-121848515.html

First few sentences say it all:

The first letter went out Aug. 4, one day after students in the Cherokee County School District returned to their classrooms for the first time since the eruption of the coronavirus pandemic.

“Dear Parents,” wrote Dr. Ashley Kennerly, the principal of Sixes Elementary School. “I am writing this letter in order to communicate that a student in 2nd grade has tested positive for COVID-19.”

By the time the last bell rang Friday afternoon, principals at 10 other schools had sent similar letters to families in Cherokee County, a bucolic and politically conservative stretch of suburbs north of Atlanta. This week, more letters went out.

Altogether, nearly 1,200 students and staff members in the district have already been ordered to quarantine. On Tuesday, one high school closed its doors until at least Aug. 31. A second high school followed Wednesday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on August 14, 2020, 04:44:36 AM

If the plan is for everyone potentially exposed to quarantine every time there's a single positive case, then this is all stupid and they should just do distance learning.

We had our first positive where I work. Thankfully it sounds like it's very unlikely anyone else was exposed. The guy's brother came home from a trip Thursday, coworker tested positive on Monday along with the rest of his family. So the only overlap was Friday, less than 24 hours after first exposure. I work mostly from home, but was in the office for a few minutes, though nowhere near where he works.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cecilia on August 16, 2020, 06:42:39 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on August 14, 2020, 04:44:36 AM

If the plan is for everyone potentially exposed to quarantine every time there's a single positive case, then this is all stupid and they should just do distance learning.

I work at in school (~1400 kids) in NY, and this is exactly what the district plan is. Those that have been exposed will have to quarantine for 14 days.

In the last week, my district has decided:
- Pushed the starting date for the kids one week back
- Full day of classes
- Hybrid learning: Mon A (A-L), Tues B (N-Z), Wed deep clean building/remote learning, Thurs A (A-L), Fri (N-Z)
- Daily self-reporting  ::)

The custodians have started setting up the classrooms with desks/chairs six feet apart. It's surreal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 17, 2020, 02:19:13 PM

Oh wow, long time no see, Cecilia!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 17, 2020, 03:00:28 PM

Numbers are getting a little better here in FL. I'm encouraged. We only have 31 positives at my hospital, down from the 70's in recent weeks. And we were below 4K in new cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 18, 2020, 10:23:06 AM

Just curious if anyone is going to the dentist for cleanings and such?  That's probably the #1 thing I'm concerned about.  I haven't had a cleaning since January.  Are the other patients following strict guidelines?  Who knows?  As long as the hygienist wears a mask, it's ok?  Patients can't wear masks.  :dunno:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on August 18, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

Appointments were more staggered, so there were few people waiting, and there were fewer chairs spaced farther apart.  The assistant wore a mask as always, along with a face shield.  I wore safety goggles.   I could tell that the chair had been wiped down after the previous patient.

That was around six weeks ago. 

It's 'different', but I felt confident (and as relaxed as one can at the dentist ;))

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 18, 2020, 10:45:55 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 18, 2020, 10:23:06 AM

Just curious if anyone is going to the dentist for cleanings and such?  That's probably the #1 thing I'm concerned about.  I haven't had a cleaning since January.  Are the other patients following strict guidelines?  Who knows?  As long as the hygienist wears a mask, it's ok?  Patients can't wear masks.  :dunno:

I purposely delayed my appointment from July until... the end of the year, basically. I got a call back saying someone canceled so I could get in earlier but I just didn't return the call. I'm not really comfortable with someone toiling around in my mouth with their fingers even if they're wearing gloves etc. at this time, even with low cases in our area. Also I just hate going there.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 18, 2020, 10:52:27 AM

My kids went for their cleanings last week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 18, 2020, 10:54:18 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on August 18, 2020, 10:23:06 AM

Just curious if anyone is going to the dentist for cleanings and such?  That's probably the #1 thing I'm concerned about.  I haven't had a cleaning since January.  Are the other patients following strict guidelines?  Who knows?  As long as the hygienist wears a mask, it's ok?  Patients can't wear masks.  :dunno:

I had an abscess develop at the base of an old rool canal and had to have the tooth pulled last month. My dentist is not allowing anyone in the waiting room. When you arrive, you call the front desk and announce you are there. You either wait in your car or stand outside the building and they will come out and get you when they are ready. They then have you fill out a health check report and apply sanitizer to your hands. They also had me rinse with a special mouthwash prior to my procedure.

I am actually getting my cleaning on Thursday so I will be going back again. So far, no outbreaks have been reported from him. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 18, 2020, 11:06:14 AM

My family finally had a ceremony in church for my grandma who passed from covid back in April.  Such a weird and awkward experience.  A lot of fighting in family about even having it since many weren't comfortable going.  In the end, not many people showed up and we all kept our distance inside the church, it was just sad, but at the same time, it was also nice to see my aunts/uncles and a few cousins who I hadn't seen since Christmas.  My parents were able to watch a live stream from Florida as well.  I just wish we had an ending in site for this, makes me so depressed thinking this new normal could be here for a long time... and yet I see in Wuhan things are back to mostly normal.  It boggles my mind that we as a country couldn't unite against this and have it be in our past or near past already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 18, 2020, 12:01:00 PM

I was talking to a friend and we were struggling to imagine the holiday season under these conditions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 18, 2020, 12:03:10 PM

Halloween is going to be interesting for sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 18, 2020, 12:09:28 PM

Quote from: Chino on August 18, 2020, 12:03:10 PM

Halloween is going to be interesting for sure.

Kids will definitively dress as Covid, making a mask resembling the virus  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 18, 2020, 02:10:24 PM

University of North Carolina started classes last week, mostly in person.

As of tomorrow, they are going to online only classes, due to four clusters of COVID infection that have sprung up.  Gee, how did that happen?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 18, 2020, 02:15:44 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 18, 2020, 02:10:24 PM

University of North Carolina started classes last week, mostly in person.

As of tomorrow, they are going to online only classes, due to four clusters of COVID infection that have sprung up.  Gee, how did that happen?

No doubt.

Things are still improving here in FL. I really hope the trend continues.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on August 18, 2020, 02:25:23 PM

One of my close friends is a dentist. She says the practices really depend on the place you go to. You should be able to call and ask what specifically they are doing to follow CDC recommendations, but some places refuse to comply with them. So you basically have to use your best judgement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 18, 2020, 03:16:24 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 18, 2020, 02:15:44 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 18, 2020, 02:10:24 PM

University of North Carolina started classes last week, mostly in person.

As of tomorrow, they are going to online only classes, due to four clusters of COVID infection that have sprung up.  Gee, how did that happen?

No doubt.

Things are still improving here in FL. I really hope the trend continues.

That is good to hear. How are the rules in Florida and for how long (things like major events/masks/store rules etc.)? Or does it depend on the area? (Here in the Netherlands, for example, Amsterdam has tighter rules than most other towns, due to the risk factors and amounts of cases).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cecilia on August 18, 2020, 04:24:16 PM

Guess who's finally getting plexiglass for their desk? I suppose I shouldn't get too excited until it actually happens, but it seems to be a strong possibility!

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 17, 2020, 02:19:13 PM

Oh wow, long time no see, Cecilia!

Hey Hef!  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 18, 2020, 04:31:41 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/now-best-evidence-yet-everyone-195200113.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/now-best-evidence-yet-everyone-195200113.html)

Pretty good news actually, even though anti-bodies may fade over time, your t-cells will not so if you get infected, your body will very likely be able to fight off another infection even after some time

Quote

A study published Friday in the journal Cell suggests that everyone who gets COVID-19 — even people with mild or asymptomatic cases — develops T cells that can hunt down the coronavirus if they get exposed again later.

I think this makes sense as a second infection is mostly unheard of and the fact that the virus seems to sweep through communities only once so far.  Plus more people and models seem to think that a second wave might not happen, just one really long first wave.  That's not part of the article but something I've read elsewhere, but so far the statistics may support that too.  If you look on US state statistics, they almost all show a wave of infections before going down.  The southern states just seeing this later than the northern states.  Even Florida is getting better for example. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 19, 2020, 03:37:47 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 18, 2020, 04:31:41 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/now-best-evidence-yet-everyone-195200113.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/now-best-evidence-yet-everyone-195200113.html)

Pretty good news actually, even though anti-bodies may fade over time, your t-cells will not so if you get infected, your body will very likely be able to fight off another infection even after some time

Quote

A study published Friday in the journal Cell suggests that everyone who gets COVID-19 — even people with mild or asymptomatic cases — develops T cells that can hunt down the coronavirus if they get exposed again later.

I think this makes sense as a second infection is mostly unheard of and the fact that the virus seems to sweep through communities only once so far.  Plus more people and models seem to think that a second wave might not happen, just one really long first wave.  That's not part of the article but something I've read elsewhere, but so far the statistics may support that too.  If you look on US state statistics, they almost all show a wave of infections before going down.  The southern states just seeing this later than the northern states.  Even Florida is getting better for example.

That is good news, and Cell is a very good scientific journal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 19, 2020, 05:42:32 AM

Put the kid on an airplane this morning to go back to college.   So THIS is what "mixed emotions" feels like.  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 19, 2020, 08:00:27 AM

We did the same thing a few weeks ago.  Kinda scary.  I know the numbers, and the odds against her getting it are "pretty good" and even if she gets it, the odds of her surviving are "pretty good", but we're still gambling with her life here.  The main reason we sent her back was basically because she wants to go.  She's got one more semester until she graduates (would've graduated in the spring, but she's got a few classes left to take) and she wants to get it over with.  Plus young people are insane and fearless.  It would've been a fight to keep her home.  So she went back.  Hoping for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 19, 2020, 08:27:28 AM

Almost exactly the same with me, except she's in her sophomore year, had her freshman year crumble because of this (and so all her shit is in storage in Dallas and has been for a couple months) and is contemplating a transfer at the end of the year.  This is as much a recon mission for her as it is a return to "normalcy".   Fingers crossed.    :yarr

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 19, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Just got an AQI alert on my phone cause basically all of norcal is on fire. It told me to wear a mask when outside lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 19, 2020, 10:48:43 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 19, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Just got an AQI alert on my phone cause basically all of norcal is on fire. It told me to wear a mask when outside lol

But your freedoms?

You should have the right to breath in smoke.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 19, 2020, 11:31:02 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 19, 2020, 10:48:43 AM

Quote from: lonestar on August 19, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Just got an AQI alert on my phone cause basically all of norcal is on fire. It told me to wear a mask when outside lol

But your freedoms?

You should have the right to breath in smoke.

DTF, always there to catch my ironic musings :hearts:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 19, 2020, 11:52:26 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 18, 2020, 04:31:41 PM

I think this makes sense as a second infection is mostly unheard of and the fact that the virus seems to sweep through communities only once so far.  Plus more people and models seem to think that a second wave might not happen, just one really long first wave.  That's not part of the article but something I've read elsewhere, but so far the statistics may support that too.  If you look on US state statistics, they almost all show a wave of infections before going down.  The southern states just seeing this later than the northern states.  Even Florida is getting better for example.

I'm curious if you could add context to this? Are you saying that the virus sweeps through and then goes away because of T-Cells? My county dropped to 0 cases for about 10 days and then spiked 41 cases after July 4th. Today we're down to 19 as of yesterday but school will open next week so we'll see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 19, 2020, 11:56:23 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on August 19, 2020, 11:52:26 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 18, 2020, 04:31:41 PM

I think this makes sense as a second infection is mostly unheard of and the fact that the virus seems to sweep through communities only once so far.  Plus more people and models seem to think that a second wave might not happen, just one really long first wave.  That's not part of the article but something I've read elsewhere, but so far the statistics may support that too.  If you look on US state statistics, they almost all show a wave of infections before going down.  The southern states just seeing this later than the northern states.  Even Florida is getting better for example.

I'm curious if you could add context to this? Are you saying that the virus sweeps through and then goes away because of T-Cells? My county dropped to 0 cases for about 10 days and then spiked 41 cases after July 4th. Today we're down to 19 as of yesterday but school will open next week so we'll see.

No, that last part was my own rusings from things I've read and stats I've looked at.  A county is pretty big, so my thinking is you have zero for awhile, then someone probably got infected outside the county and brought it into an area of the country that wasn't infected from the first run through.  All my guesses and thoughts, not fact.  What was the biggest spike in the county?  I'd guess if my logic is correct, you won't hit that big of a spike, but since I'm mostly just going off thought from other stats I've seen, I could be completely wrong here with my thought process.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

Man horrible news today i got an warning for the coronavirus thread,saying something horrible offensive that quite the opposite of what the mainstream media narrative is here of people who refuse to think for themselves.Whow!! I thought progressive people where well........ "progressive"in their thinking as well but it's rather narrow minded.
You think the government suddenly trying to safe you and your health?? While in other years they filled you with garbage food so you could become fat fucks ?And create al kinds of diseases Let's face it garbage is cheaper than healthy food.Anywho before i step on your sensitive tippi toes because you're to scared to think for yourself.
What to think about those smoke and mirrors for the elite pedophiles,could that be an option for the covid story or do you think that's not real ?
Did you know that at the nurembergtrial after WW2  18 people where convicted?Guess where the other scientist docters etc went to ???What did dr.Mengele do? What do you think vaccins are? It's modern witchery a bit of mercury a bit of formaldehyde a bit of fetal cells you name it if it doesn't kill you rightaway it will kil you later.But maybe it runs just in your family right?
Astrology is evil to religious christian fanatics ,so the mayans (who by the way also mentioned these times) where evil too.


oh and we had other terrible news as well in the region fifteen out of ten people tested positive for covid the otherday while 22 died.Unbelievable (joke)

So i'll let myself out.I can't be bothered by so much blindness Thank you very much /de nada /don't care

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 22, 2020, 11:32:10 AM

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way.  Hopefully the mods ban you now... these posts are too cray-cray to be even mildly humorous, let alone funny.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 22, 2020, 11:48:02 AM

I admit, I'm fundamentally incapable of seriously considering the opinion of a person who can't spell or properly format a paragraph.

Also, you can't just accept any crazy thing you read as fact and call it 'thinking for yourself.' You get that, right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 22, 2020, 11:54:34 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

Man horrible news today i got an warning for the coronavirus thread,saying something horrible offensive that quite the opposite of what the mainstream media narrative is here of people who refuse to think for themselves.Whow!! I thought progressive people where well........ "progressive"in their thinking as well but it's rather narrow minded.
You think the government suddenly trying to safe you and your health?? While in other years they filled you with garbage food so you could become fat fucks ?And create al kinds of diseases Let's face it garbage is cheaper than healthy food.Anywho before i step on your sensitive tippi toes because you're to scared to think for yourself.
What to think about those smoke and mirrors for the elite pedophiles,could that be an option for the covid story or do you think that's not real ?
Did you know that at the nurembergtrial after WW2  18 people where convicted?Guess where the other scientist docters etc went to ???What did dr.Mengele do? What do you think vaccins are? It's modern witchery a bit of mercury a bit of formaldehyde a bit of fetal cells you name it if it doesn't kill you rightaway it will kil you later.But maybe it runs just in your family right?
Astrology is evil to religious christian fanatics ,so the mayans (who by the way also mentioned these times) where evil too.


oh and we had other terrible news as well in the region fifteen out of ten people tested positive for covid the otherday while 22 died.Unbelievable (joke)

So i'll let myself out.I can't be bothered by so much blindness Thank you very much /de nada /don't care

Exactly!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 22, 2020, 11:56:23 AM

(https://media.giphy.com/media/5DkaAZzkJsaha/giphy.gif)

You know if you format that post the right way you got some good lyrics for the next Megadeth album

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on August 22, 2020, 12:04:57 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

What to think about those smoke and mirrors for the elite pedophiles,could that be an option for the covid story or do you think that's not real ?

the hell does this even mean?

(just singling out this one sentence, most of the other stuff you typed is insane as well)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 22, 2020, 12:07:35 PM

re: that sentence, note that this a guy who hoped Trump would save us. Just to contextualize it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 22, 2020, 12:25:54 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

So i'll let myself out.I can't be bothered by so much blindness Thank you very much /de nada /don't care

Don't let the door hit your tinfoil hat on your way out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 22, 2020, 12:27:07 PM

I'm kind of impressed actually, the fucktard managed to squeeze every dipshit window licking, crayon eating conspiracy theory into one post. Bravo shit for brains.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on August 22, 2020, 12:28:08 PM

Contextualize what? It still doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 22, 2020, 12:32:10 PM

Quote from: Elite on August 22, 2020, 12:28:08 PM

Contextualize what? It still doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Trying to stay out of P/R territory, I just found it ironic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 22, 2020, 02:01:52 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

So i'll let myself out.I can't be bothered by so much blindness Thank you very much /de nada /don't care

You might have better luck in the comment sections of Infowars. You won't get called out on your nonsense there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on August 22, 2020, 11:24:20 PM

Quote from: Elite on August 22, 2020, 12:04:57 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

What to think about those smoke and mirrors for the elite pedophiles,could that be an option for the covid story or do you think that's not real ?

the hell does this even mean?

(just singling out this one sentence, most of the other stuff you typed is insane as well)

Elite pedophiles are the worst really.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 22, 2020, 11:54:30 PM

Quote from: Elite on August 22, 2020, 12:04:57 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

What to think about those smoke and mirrors for the elite pedophiles,could that be an option for the covid story or do you think that's not real ?

the hell does this even mean?

(just singling out this one sentence, most of the other stuff you typed is insane as well)

Someone seems to be spouting QAnon talking points. They are obsessed with Hollywood and, I believe that they think everyone there is a pedophile. Most Democrats too, I think. I really hate knowing any of this but details are eeking their way into the news more and more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 23, 2020, 06:08:03 AM

I need a dyslexic interpreter to follow and understand that post. Dang.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on August 23, 2020, 06:14:30 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

Man horrible news today i got an warning for the coronavirus thread,saying something horrible offensive that quite the opposite of what the mainstream media narrative is here of people who refuse to think for themselves.Whow!! I thought progressive people where well........ "progressive"in their thinking as well but it's rather narrow minded.
You think the government suddenly trying to safe you and your health?? While in other years they filled you with garbage food so you could become fat fucks ?And create al kinds of diseases Let's face it garbage is cheaper than healthy food.Anywho before i step on your sensitive tippi toes because you're to scared to think for yourself.
What to think about those smoke and mirrors for the elite pedophiles,could that be an option for the covid story or do you think that's not real ?
Did you know that at the nurembergtrial after WW2  18 people where convicted?Guess where the other scientist docters etc went to ???What did dr.Mengele do? What do you think vaccins are? It's modern witchery a bit of mercury a bit of formaldehyde a bit of fetal cells you name it if it doesn't kill you rightaway it will kil you later.But maybe it runs just in your family right?
Astrology is evil to religious christian fanatics ,so the mayans (who by the way also mentioned these times) where evil too.


oh and we had other terrible news as well in the region fifteen out of ten people tested positive for covid the otherday while 22 died.Unbelievable (joke)

So i'll let myself out.I can't be bothered by so much blindness Thank you very much /de nada /don't care

:lol what is even happening here?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 23, 2020, 09:30:26 AM

Press conference at 6 tonight. Supposedly some "major" breakthrough on a therapeutic.

Maybe a vaccine that will be ready earlier than expected?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on August 23, 2020, 10:00:01 AM

Please God let it be a vaccine

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 23, 2020, 10:22:08 AM

Despite increasing numbers thankfully nobody has ended up on the icu here, yet. Doctors now have more experience with the illness and they now apply several drugs that reduce/shorten it (proven to be effective thanks to swift studies over the last couple of months).

That is not to say we don't still have a major problem, but the situation is improving. A lot of people with mild cases still haven't recovered and nobody know the real long term effects of the virus, so even if the chance of dying becomes minimal, try to stay safe.

And hopefully more good news from that press conference.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 23, 2020, 10:44:30 AM

Quote from: emtee on August 23, 2020, 09:30:26 AM

Press conference at 6 tonight. Supposedly some "major" breakthrough on a therapeutic.

Maybe a vaccine that will be ready earlier than expected?

A little more detail. Like who, what, where?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: home on August 23, 2020, 10:44:56 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on August 23, 2020, 06:14:30 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

-

:lol what is even happening here?

Maybe he is taking in information in the same unstructured way as it's coming out...  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 23, 2020, 10:57:35 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on August 23, 2020, 10:44:30 AM

Quote from: emtee on August 23, 2020, 09:30:26 AM

Press conference at 6 tonight. Supposedly some "major" breakthrough on a therapeutic.

Maybe a vaccine that will be ready earlier than expected?

A little more detail. Like who, what, where?

Honestly, I don't feel it's a responsibility to post links, as I'm not a news service. However, since most people here prefer that, I will try to adhere.

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-08-23-20-intl/h_315906970c3623de9dcc8865c2299c1a

2nd or 3rd story down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 23, 2020, 11:19:31 AM

He's gonna announce that we should all drink Lysol, or bleach, or something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 23, 2020, 11:21:03 AM

Oh, it's a Trump thing. I thought it was going to be something real. Damn me for getting my hopes up. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 23, 2020, 01:11:14 PM

Hilarious!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 23, 2020, 01:24:04 PM

Let me be the first to predict that Trump will declare that we have new treatments that shortens the effects of the virus and shortens hospital stays -which we have already known about for the last few months.

Then, he will take complete credit for it.  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 23, 2020, 01:33:34 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 23, 2020, 01:11:14 PM

Hilarious!

Honestly dude, has there been any point over the last 4-5 months when Trump has said or done anything regarding coronavirus that would make you think this is something legitimate? Seriously. Because I don't remember one. At some point the benefit of the doubt expires.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 23, 2020, 01:45:26 PM

Nope. But I have to remain positive. I'll take any good news right now regardless how insignificant it may be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 23, 2020, 03:03:14 PM

Based on what I am seeing, this is him jumping the gun again much like he did with hydroxichloriquin. He just bashed the FDA as a 'deep state' organization yesterday and said they are holding off on innovation until after the election. Plus, the RNC is starting. He's playing politics with the virus again. At least, that what it appears to be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 23, 2020, 03:05:19 PM

Apparently it's  related to plasma treatments. Not sure if it is for seniors only.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 23, 2020, 03:11:17 PM

Plasma treatments work but you have to find someone with your exact blood type, and also it's not that you can mass produce it. Plasma is a cool little help in the selected cases where it actually can be used - it will never be a worldwide mass cure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 23, 2020, 06:49:06 PM

Seems to be pretty much what I was reading. This isn't ready. FDA actually hit the brakes like a week ago and then Trump started attacking.

https://apnews.com/3296040fb1225ee7fa465d7baa5057da

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 24, 2020, 09:52:24 AM

https://www.fox35orlando.com/


The positive trend continues in FL. I'm extremely encouraged and hoping this continues. It's been a long, exhausting haul working at the hospital.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 24, 2020, 01:20:05 PM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

Man horrible news today i got an warning for the coronavirus thread,saying something horrible offensive that quite the opposite of what the mainstream media narrative is here of people who refuse to think for themselves.Whow!! I thought progressive people where well........ "progressive"in their thinking as well but it's rather narrow minded.
You think the government suddenly trying to safe you and your health?? While in other years they filled you with garbage food so you could become fat fucks ?And create al kinds of diseases Let's face it garbage is cheaper than healthy food.Anywho before i step on your sensitive tippi toes because you're to scared to think for yourself.
What to think about those smoke and mirrors for the elite pedophiles,could that be an option for the covid story or do you think that's not real ?
Did you know that at the nurembergtrial after WW2  18 people where convicted?Guess where the other scientist docters etc went to ???What did dr.Mengele do? What do you think vaccins are? It's modern witchery a bit of mercury a bit of formaldehyde a bit of fetal cells you name it if it doesn't kill you rightaway it will kil you later.But maybe it runs just in your family right?
Astrology is evil to religious christian fanatics ,so the mayans (who by the way also mentioned these times) where evil too.


oh and we had other terrible news as well in the region fifteen out of ten people tested positive for covid the otherday while 22 died.Unbelievable (joke)

So i'll let myself out.I can't be bothered by so much blindness Thank you very much /de nada /don't care

I ain''t even mad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 24, 2020, 03:48:58 PM

Jeez!  You could throw that post in a blender and it would come out looking exactly the same.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on August 24, 2020, 05:08:50 PM

That post reads like it is written by an a.i. of which the training set is a database of deleted facebook pages.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on August 24, 2020, 05:14:22 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on August 24, 2020, 05:08:50 PM

That post reads like it is written by an a.i. of which the training set is a database of deleted facebook pages.

That's not honestly the worst of the nonsense-jumbo thing I've seen in my years of reading forums.  Just take a look at this OP post from another forum I frequent.  Here's the intro.  Alone.......

Quote

Practical Explanation ( For Example ) :- `1st of all can you tell me every single seconds detail from that time when you born ?? ( i need every seconds detail ?? that what- what you have thought and done on every single second )

can you tell me every single detail of your `1 cheapest Minute Or your whole hour, day, week, month, year or your whole life ??

if you are not able to tell me about this life then what proof do you have that you didn't forget your past ? and that you will not forget this present life in the future ?

that is Fact that Supreme Lord Krishna exists but we posses no such intelligence to understand him.
there is also next life. and i already proved you that no scientist, no politician, no so-called intelligent man in this world is able to understand this Truth. cuz they are imagining. and you cannot imagine what is god, who is god, what is after life etc.

http://thealterbridgenation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3160

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on August 24, 2020, 05:20:09 PM

I can deal with the rantings and ravings, but it's the lack of proper grammar and punctuation that really bugs me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 24, 2020, 05:21:11 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on August 24, 2020, 05:08:50 PM

That post reads like it is written by an a.i. of which the training set is a database of deleted facebook pages.

 :rollin :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on August 24, 2020, 06:17:54 PM

 :lol



Speaking of funny, my bro shared this to me on Facebook, I'll share it here for Tim's sake....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-eFRcTpWls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-eFRcTpWls)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 24, 2020, 06:20:41 PM

Quote from: lonestar on August 24, 2020, 06:17:54 PM

:lol



Speaking of funny, my bro shared this to me on Facebook, I'll share it here for Tim's sake....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-eFRcTpWls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-eFRcTpWls)

That is awesome!!  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on August 24, 2020, 07:42:35 PM

It's like showing something on your cellphone to your grandpa.   Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 24, 2020, 07:47:27 PM

(https://previews.123rf.com/images/fizkes/fizkes2003/fizkes200302959/142822294-old-man-sit-on-sofa-hold-smartphone-look-at-device-screen-feels-confused-shocked-by-received-sms-mes.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 24, 2020, 08:08:05 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/oldpeoplefacebook/top/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on August 25, 2020, 04:49:09 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on August 24, 2020, 05:08:50 PM

That post reads like it is written by an a.i. of which the training set is a database of deleted facebook pages.

This is amazing :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 25, 2020, 05:07:12 AM

566 cases at the University of Alabama. FREEDOM!!!!!!  :metal
It's a shame that there weren't professionals of some kind that could have warned our nation's leaders that this was a probable scenario.


Also, these were some students from of the University of Michigan over the weekend.
(https://i.redd.it/muqbr29fjyi51.jpg)



Fucking idiots.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on August 25, 2020, 06:22:49 AM

In Italy instead the contagions are coming from discos and dance clubs, with young people being infected.

Eventually the government forced all dance clubs to shut down, to the wrath of businessmen and especially a famous one, Flavio Briatore (you might have heard of him for dating Naomi Campbell or for being involved with the Benetton F1 team when Michaeel Schumacher was becoming a rising star), who whined and ranted about the closing declaring that dance clubs were scapegoats and so the young people, that there was no need to shut them down, the major of the town where his dance club is is a moron, blah blah blah.

I know you'll see where this is going, but.... 52 people working in his dance club got infected, and he himself got hospitalized in serious (but not critical) conditions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 25, 2020, 06:28:16 AM

Quote from: Chino on August 25, 2020, 05:07:12 AM

Also, these were some students from of the University of Michigan over the weekend.
(https://i.redd.it/muqbr29fjyi51.jpg)

Fucking idiots.

Well, it doesn't look overly crowed, and seems the be centered outside. Even the windows are all wide open.


I have a hard time calling kids fucking idiots.


Now that sign...that is fucking idiotic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 07:11:29 AM

^^^  See I'm with you on all counts.  They ARE doing what has been recommended by some authorities; outside, distance.

And where there's a will there's a way; if you're really wanting to eat ass, a mask ought not stop you. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 25, 2020, 07:13:38 AM

They’re outside but the only distance is between the guy and another group of girls. Everyone else is within a foot or two of each other. That’s not distancing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 25, 2020, 07:15:27 AM

Question...

Would Ace Ventura, Pet Detectve have to wear a mask over his ass?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 25, 2020, 07:21:01 AM

What's been recommended is to wear a mask, stay six feet away from each other, or, even better, stay away from other people entirely if it's possible. I don't see how they're following any of these recommendations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 25, 2020, 07:33:06 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 25, 2020, 07:21:01 AM

What's been recommended is to wear a mask, stay six feet away from each other, or, even better, stay away from other people entirely if it's possible. I don't see how they're following any of these recommendations.

Can't really argue that to the letter.

These are college kids, and for a Sorority House, they seem like they are being quite reasonable considering.

Not directing this at you, Ninja...


Life goes on, and people have to try and make the best of it. I'm not at all outraged looking at THIS picture. THIS picture actually makes me hopeful for kids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 25, 2020, 07:45:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 25, 2020, 07:33:06 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 25, 2020, 07:21:01 AM

What's been recommended is to wear a mask, stay six feet away from each other, or, even better, stay away from other people entirely if it's possible. I don't see how they're following any of these recommendations.

Can't really argue that to the letter.

These are college kids, and for a Sorority House, they seem like they are being quite reasonable considering.

Not directing this at you, Ninja...


Life goes on, and people have to try and make the best of it. I'm not at all outraged looking at THIS picture. THIS picture actually makes me hopeful for kids.

I admire your optimism. But even though it’s not super crowded, they’re still completely ignoring all suggestions and literally putting up anti mask signs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on August 25, 2020, 07:52:38 AM

Well, school is off to a rough start. Very little direction and 2 days in a row my son can't get into a live stream of his first class of the day and the school marks him absent. Yesterday he sits in a waiting room with 6 other students for nearly 40 minutes all thinking it is their class only to realize it is their lunch period.

He is frustrated and angry. Everything we expected this to be so far.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 08:00:01 AM

Well going back to college in general is mostly ignoring the social distancing already (at least in terms of these big state schools, Alabama/Michigan).  You had to expect the kids to do things like this, so it doesn't bother me.  It's expected in my mind when you open up the campus.

And honestly, I've got to imagine, there's FAR worse examples than a few people chilling outside.  I'd be more concerned with the 50 people partying in the basement which if the campus is still open come the colder weather, I can only expect that's what the kids will do.

Also, I love the sign.  That reminds me so much of college life. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on August 25, 2020, 08:04:08 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 25, 2020, 06:28:16 AM

Quote from: Chino on August 25, 2020, 05:07:12 AM

Also, these were some students from of the University of Michigan over the weekend.
(https://i.redd.it/muqbr29fjyi51.jpg)

Fucking idiots.

Well, it doesn't look overly crowed, and seems the be centered outside. Even the windows are all wide open.


I have a hard time calling kids fucking idiots.


Now that sign...that is fucking idiotic.

Years ago a wise mang once told me, "Kids iz dumb".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on August 25, 2020, 08:30:06 AM

Quote from: Dreammajesty on August 22, 2020, 11:28:44 AM

Man horrible news today i got an warning for the coronavirus thread,saying something horrible offensive that quite the opposite of what the mainstream media narrative is here of people who refuse to think for themselves.

Wrong.  You didn't get a warning for saying the opposite of what the mainstream media narrative is.  You got warned for saying it like a jerk, and for baiting and insulting others here.  Big difference.  Believe what you like.  And feel free to speak up about it, whether it is popular or not.  But say it respectfully, or you will not be allowed to say it here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 11:21:45 AM

Quote from: Adami on August 25, 2020, 07:45:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on August 25, 2020, 07:33:06 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 25, 2020, 07:21:01 AM

What's been recommended is to wear a mask, stay six feet away from each other, or, even better, stay away from other people entirely if it's possible. I don't see how they're following any of these recommendations.

Can't really argue that to the letter.

These are college kids, and for a Sorority House, they seem like they are being quite reasonable considering.

Not directing this at you, Ninja...


Life goes on, and people have to try and make the best of it. I'm not at all outraged looking at THIS picture. THIS picture actually makes me hopeful for kids.

I admire your optimism. But even though it’s not super crowded, they’re still completely ignoring all suggestions and literally putting up anti mask signs.

Maybe that shows something about me that I'm not in tune with, but I'm not sure that is strictly an "anti-mask" sign.   I think there's probably at least some level of "stupid frat boy/girl joke" to it.   I remember going to Uconn Basketball games against Villanova, and the 'Nova cheerleaders would invariably run around with a sign with a big blue and white "V" on it.  For a couple of years there, there was a kid/group of kids that would wait for their moment, then run after them with their own big blue and white sign "agina".   Misogynist?  Bigoted? Nah; just stupid and silly.  And made the moreso the one year that the girl carrying the sign turned and bopped the kid in the head with her sign.  It just was what it was, no hidden meanings or agendas. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 25, 2020, 11:24:56 AM

It’s an anti mask sign.

Excuse it all you want. There’s humor in it for sure, and it’s not “if you wear a mask we’ll kill you” but it’s an anti mask sign nonetheless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 11:34:39 AM

No "excuses"; I don't know what they meant.  I'm just saying, there are often more than one way to take these things.  One could, after all, view it as a pro eating ass sign.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 25, 2020, 11:37:35 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 11:34:39 AM

No "excuses"; I don't know what they meant.  I'm just saying, there are often more than one way to take these things.  One could, after all, view it as a pro eating ass sign.

It's also an anti-mask sign. I'm not implying any political meaning behind it. I have no idea where the sentiment would have come from. But it's an anti-mask sign nonetheless. No secondary meanings undo that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 11:40:53 AM

If you ever seen any of these similar signs at frat houses, I think you would just take it as a joke and not extrapolate real thought to it.  Sure it's "anti-mask" and "pro eating ass" but taking it further than just a stupid college joke is really going too far.  Criticize the people for not following social distancing, but the sign is pure stupidity at it's finest for college students.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 25, 2020, 11:42:24 AM

Can't it be anti mask and pro eating ass? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 25, 2020, 11:42:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 11:40:53 AM

If you ever seen any of these similar signs at frat houses, I think you would just take it as a joke and not extrapolate real thought to it.  Sure it's "anti-mask" and "pro eating ass" but taking it further than just a stupid college joke is really going too far.  Criticize the people for not following social distancing, but the sign is pure stupidity at it's finest for college students.

I'm not singling out the sign. If everyone there was wearing a mask, it'd have a different context. But it's the whole picture.

"college stupidity" causes COVID spreading, so I don't just brush it off. Sorry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 11:50:09 AM

Quote from: Adami on August 25, 2020, 11:42:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 11:40:53 AM

If you ever seen any of these similar signs at frat houses, I think you would just take it as a joke and not extrapolate real thought to it.  Sure it's "anti-mask" and "pro eating ass" but taking it further than just a stupid college joke is really going too far.  Criticize the people for not following social distancing, but the sign is pure stupidity at it's finest for college students.

I'm not singling out the sign. If everyone there was wearing a mask, it'd have a different context. But it's the whole picture.

"college stupidity" causes COVID spreading, so I don't just brush it off. Sorry.

I'm not defending them, but drinking outside doesn't require a mask usually.  I mean, you can outdoor dine pretty much everywhere in the US and you don't need to wear a mask (how can you).  As I said before, this specific example of the kids outside drinking is not really an example of college stupidity IMO.  As I said before, it's the 50 kids partying in the basement that are the problem.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 25, 2020, 11:52:51 AM

Quote from: Adami on August 25, 2020, 11:42:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 11:40:53 AM

If you ever seen any of these similar signs at frat houses, I think you would just take it as a joke and not extrapolate real thought to it.  Sure it's "anti-mask" and "pro eating ass" but taking it further than just a stupid college joke is really going too far.  Criticize the people for not following social distancing, but the sign is pure stupidity at it's finest for college students.

I'm not singling out the sign. If everyone there was wearing a mask, it'd have a different context. But it's the whole picture.

"college stupidity" causes COVID spreading, so I don't just brush it off. Sorry.

I think that’s a fair takeaway here. While I agree wth Bill and Marc, the biggest point is the carelessness and attitude, as demonstrated in multiple facets of the picture. Yes, they may be doing some things right (as Tim mentions) but it’s still irresponsible and dangerous - to them and others.

You wouldn’t commend a drunk driver for wearing their seatbelt, doing the limit, staying in their lane, signalling properly, and stopping at 7 out of 8 lights ... if they T-boned someone at the 8th.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 25, 2020, 11:56:17 AM

Yeah, I think you could make a sign like that just to be a college asshole (and taken on its own it's pretty funny) and not a rabid anti-masker, but at the same time, unless you're pretty lax and callous about the entire situation (like the kind of person who would show up to this gathering in the first place), you wouldn't put it up either. And it's that kind of 'who cares, it's not that big of a deal' kind of attitude that gets us, maybe even more so than the rabid Covid-isn't-realers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 12:19:14 PM

Whoa, whoa.  I'm not at all saying "who cares, it's not that big a deal".  I put my kid on an airplane to go to college not a week ago.  I get it.   I'm just saying that it's not as easy as standing here and casting judgment like Solomon without some consideration.   I would prefer those kids have masks on.   No question.   I - as a dad - would prefer if those kids were home, sitting on their own couches, watching Big Bang Theory.   But there's a dose of reality - as well as human nature - here that cannot be avoided.   I think too much more is getting unrealistic to ask for, even if it's optimal. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 25, 2020, 12:21:27 PM

Not saying you were, I was talking about the ass-eater who made the sign.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 12:37:16 PM

I should also clarify, I think ass eating is disgusting and maybe would rather put on a mask before my mouth ever went into someone's anus  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 12:42:10 PM

But it's the latest thing!   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 25, 2020, 12:49:22 PM

(https://i.redd.it/i31wlibi07j51.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 25, 2020, 12:52:39 PM

I agree!  Yoga pants!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 25, 2020, 12:56:30 PM

Quote from: Chino on August 25, 2020, 12:49:22 PM

(https://i.redd.it/i31wlibi07j51.jpg)

Amen brutha

AaaaaaaaaMennnnnnn!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on August 25, 2020, 01:53:33 PM

Dental dams. Stay safe, friends.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Spiritus on August 25, 2020, 03:20:31 PM

Quote from: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 07:11:29 AM

^^^  See I'm with you on all counts.  They ARE doing what has been recommended by some authorities; outside, distance.

And where there's a will there's a way; if you're really wanting to eat ass, a mask ought not stop you.

There's an underwear with a fly hole joke somewhere here, but I'm too exhausted to come up with one

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 25, 2020, 03:28:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on August 25, 2020, 06:28:16 AM

I have a hard time calling kids fucking idiots.

Have you ever met any kids?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 25, 2020, 03:54:50 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 25, 2020, 03:28:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on August 25, 2020, 06:28:16 AM

I have a hard time calling kids fucking idiots.

Have you ever met any kids?

When I was in college, I managed to fall off a 5th floor balcony while smoking a cigarette alone. I'd think there was something wrong with you if you didn't refer to me as a "fucking idiot".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 25, 2020, 03:58:49 PM

I'd call you fucking lucky.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 25, 2020, 04:02:57 PM

Quote from: Chino on August 25, 2020, 03:54:50 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 25, 2020, 03:28:37 PM

Quote from: TAC on August 25, 2020, 06:28:16 AM

I have a hard time calling kids fucking idiots.

Have you ever met any kids?

When I was in college, I managed to fall off a 5th floor balcony while smoking a cigarette alone. I'd think there was something wrong with you if you didn't refer to me as a "fucking idiot".

I was bitten by a Western Diamondback Rattlesnake when I was stoned and drunk.......that I 'owned' as a pet and decided that it'd be a good idea to remove it from its secure enclosure to hold. Pretty sure that version of Gary was a "fucking idiot"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 25, 2020, 04:10:56 PM

We’ve all got our “holy fucknards I was an idiot” story. In fact, seems like a perfect idea for a thread unto itself!  I’d start it now, but I’m off to pickup jingle.son from work. If no one has done it by the time I’m back here (assuming I remember), I’ll fire it up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on August 25, 2020, 04:11:50 PM

I’ve spent the last two years working with college students.

Calling them idiots ain’t a stretch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 25, 2020, 04:18:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 25, 2020, 04:10:56 PM

We’ve all got our “holy fucknards I was an idiot” story. In fact, seems like a perfect idea for a thread unto itself!  I’d start it now, but I’m off to pickup jingle.son from work. If no one has done it by the time I’m back here (assuming I remember), I’ll fire it up.

I guarantee you I'll have five of the first ten posts.   But to remain on topic here, that's part of the idea.  It's the one time you can sort push the boundaries on what is acceptable and what isn't.  Get that shit out of your system where the consequences are still real but are cushioned a bit.  I'm not talking about hardcore felony crime, but in terms of testing social norms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 25, 2020, 04:26:06 PM

Yes, college kids are idiot. I was an idiot.

I just resisted lashing out at the kids in THAT picture. What I saw there in and of itself didn't make them idiots, to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on August 25, 2020, 11:43:31 PM

As someone who teaches high school kids, I agree with TAC in the sense that I have a hard time calling those idiots. They can be clumsy, messy or awkward, sure, but they're also still growing up.

College students on the other hand... yeah, they're idiots.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on August 28, 2020, 07:13:42 AM

Even in my podunk little town, COVID has already hit the middle school, and an even smaller school in a neighboring town. Gee, who could have ever predicted this happening after you open schools? Insane.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dream Team on August 28, 2020, 07:17:14 AM

Awesome this morning on Clay Travis’ show, interviewing guy who has an article in the Wall Street Journal exposing Andrew Cuomo’s complete mishandling of the pandemic, yet the media is so skewed in his favor he has a book coming out about how he “conquered” the virus  :rollin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on August 28, 2020, 07:37:40 AM

Quote from: Dream Team on August 28, 2020, 07:17:14 AM

Awesome this morning on Clay Travis’ show, interviewing guy who has an article in the Wall Street Journal exposing Andrew Cuomo’s complete mishandling of the pandemic, yet the media is so skewed in his favor he has a book coming out about how he “conquered” the virus  :rollin.

I need to read that, because living here in CT, I've sung the praises of Cuomo.  He did - from a perception point of view - everything he was supposed to do.  Open press conferences, candid responses, collaborative discussions (with Trump, with my governor, and with NJ's governor).   My governor - Ned Lamont, who I did NOT vote for (strenuously) but who has completely won me over - has been largely following Cuomo's lead and we've got some of the best numbers in the COUNTRY.   So while I have no dog in the Cuomo hunt, if it is in fact the case that he botched this, I think that casts a lot of the criticisms of Trump in a new light, because he was (supposedly) doing all the things Trump was supposed to.  That seems to tell me that this wasn't something that was going to be stopped or minimized by "leadership", but only by FULL cooperation between the disparate people that make up our society.  You don't need to be a Poly Sci major to know that that's not happening in this divisive, antagonistic society we live in, where our side is "morally right" and the other side are "deplorable/fascist idiots". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on August 28, 2020, 07:41:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 28, 2020, 07:37:40 AM

Quote from: Dream Team on August 28, 2020, 07:17:14 AM

Awesome this morning on Clay Travis’ show, interviewing guy who has an article in the Wall Street Journal exposing Andrew Cuomo’s complete mishandling of the pandemic, yet the media is so skewed in his favor he has a book coming out about how he “conquered” the virus  :rollin.

I need to read that, because living here in CT, I've sung the praises of Cuomo.  He did - from a perception point of view - everything he was supposed to do.  Open press conferences, candid responses, collaborative discussions (with Trump, with my governor, and with NJ's governor).   My governor - Ned Lamont, who I did NOT vote for (strenuously) but who has completely won me over - has been largely following Cuomo's lead and we've got some of the best numbers in the COUNTRY.   So while I have no dog in the Cuomo hunt, if it is in fact the case that he botched this, I think that casts a lot of the criticisms of Trump in a new light, because he was (supposedly) doing all the things Trump was supposed to.  That seems to tell me that this wasn't something that was going to be stopped or minimized by "leadership", but only by FULL cooperation between the disparate people that make up our society.  You don't need to be a Poly Sci major to know that that's not happening in this divisive, antagonistic society we live in, where our side is "morally right" and the other side are "deplorable/fascist idiots".

I think Lamont handled this as good as anyone could have asked for. We were right next to ground zero in the early days and still managed to get the lid on pretty quick. It's going to be interesting going into winter. There's going to be a lot of pressure from the food service industry to increase indoor seating capacity once people are no longer able to endure the cold weather while eating outside.

The guy who got interviewed, what examples did he give of Cuomo failing?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: orcus116 on August 28, 2020, 09:52:49 AM

I haven't seen the interview but I'm assuming he mentioned the nursing home debacle that resulted in a lot of deaths. Speaking as a New Yorker there are a lot of us that aren't a huge fan of how Cuomo is handling things especially since he handled the entire state as if it was all New York City and numbers showed that the vast majority of cases were centered in a very, very tiny cluster of the state area wise. The travel ban is comically bad and he's refusing to lift it even after the CDC recently retracted their 14 day quarantine edict. A lot of us think he was given too much power and are worried because there doesn't seem to be an expiration date on the expanded powers the state government gave him. It's hard to say if New York is in the position it's in currently because of actions taken or if we just got it first and it's sort of fizzling out now as a disease tends to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on August 28, 2020, 10:54:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on August 28, 2020, 07:37:40 AM

Quote from: Dream Team on August 28, 2020, 07:17:14 AM

Awesome this morning on Clay Travis’ show, interviewing guy who has an article in the Wall Street Journal exposing Andrew Cuomo’s complete mishandling of the pandemic, yet the media is so skewed in his favor he has a book coming out about how he “conquered” the virus  :rollin.

I need to read that, because living here in CT, I've sung the praises of Cuomo.  He did - from a perception point of view - everything he was supposed to do.  Open press conferences, candid responses, collaborative discussions (with Trump, with my governor, and with NJ's governor).   My governor - Ned Lamont, who I did NOT vote for (strenuously) but who has completely won me over - has been largely following Cuomo's lead and we've got some of the best numbers in the COUNTRY.   So while I have no dog in the Cuomo hunt, if it is in fact the case that he botched this, I think that casts a lot of the criticisms of Trump in a new light, because he was (supposedly) doing all the things Trump was supposed to.  That seems to tell me that this wasn't something that was going to be stopped or minimized by "leadership", but only by FULL cooperation between the disparate people that make up our society.  You don't need to be a Poly Sci major to know that that's not happening in this divisive, antagonistic society we live in, where our side is "morally right" and the other side are "deplorable/fascist idiots". 

I think it is a mixed bag.  There are aspects that he completely botched.  There are others that he handled very well.  What bothers me a bit is the way he disingenuously deflected from the things that he botched.  But that aside, I think as with the way it was handled anywhere, this thing was so complex, and there was so much unknown, and the scope of it was so big, that I think it is unfair to point to ANY government official and lean on them too heavily for the things they did wrong.  It just is what it is. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on August 28, 2020, 12:00:44 PM

The fact that the States were basically left to fend for themselves and the fact that there was no real task force at the federal level only exasperated the challenges the States had, especially if you are a Blue State.

And while it was clear that my State had no disaster plan which is in itself is ridiculous it should piss off every American that the feds threw away the plan they were left with.

So say "it is what it is" but it didn't HAVE to be this way.

Yeah - I know we've already covered this............. :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 31, 2020, 09:53:55 AM

So NJ opened gyms at 25% last week and finally are opening up indoor restaurants at 25% capacity this week.  Our R has been around 0.8 for a couple weeks now.  Most of the "new" deaths being reported are mostly actually old deaths just being accounted for being C19 deaths.  It kind of feels like the state did it's thing with tight restrictions and from being one of the worst areas in the world to one of the best now (when you consider the population density in this state).  While I don't plan on eating indoors (I havent even eaten outdoors) in the near future, it feels like it's about time to start opening more up now and monitor the R to see if it gets worse or if we can keep it low.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 31, 2020, 10:19:43 AM

https://www.fox35orlando.com/

Under 2K new cases in FL for the first time in ages.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 10:22:12 AM

Quote from: emtee on August 31, 2020, 10:19:43 AM

https://www.fox35orlando.com/

Under 2K new cases in FL for the first time in ages.

That's good news!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on August 31, 2020, 02:10:25 PM

I'm back in Norway so I switched back to reading their corona news. Just in time for this big hit of a story that's doubtlessly going to hit more than local papers: some kids decided to throw a bunker rave, 200 people decided to show up, and social distancing was so possible and respected in those circumstances that 23 people ended up in the hospital with symptoms of CO2 poisoning. Human stupidity never ceases to amaze me. The weather is nice, invite a couple friends out to a house in the country (every friend group here has one person who has a house in the country), drink outside, play whatever music you want, stay distanced, no one has to know. But no, let's throw inside parties. Fucking ding dongs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 02:48:39 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on August 31, 2020, 02:10:25 PM

I'm back in Norway so I switched back to reading their corona news. Just in time for this big hit of a story that's doubtlessly going to hit more than local papers: some kids decided to throw a bunker rave, 200 people decided to show up, and social distancing was so possible and respected in those circumstances that 23 people ended up in the hospital with symptoms of CO2 poisoning. Human stupidity never ceases to amaze me. The weather is nice, invite a couple friends out to a house in the country (every friend group here has one person who has a house in the country), drink outside, play whatever music you want, stay distanced, no one has to know. But no, let's throw inside parties. Fucking ding dongs.

Nice to hear that your finally back home, Milena.  That was a long what... 6-7 months??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on August 31, 2020, 02:53:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 02:48:39 PM

Nice to hear that your finally back home, Milena.  That was a long what... 6-7 months??

Almost five, I just took a little break from posting. Had to enter a 10 day quarantine when I came back too, so overall I spent 38 days in govt-mandated quarantine this year  :mehlin going to a place where masks aren't mandatory and no one cares to really wear them was a bit of a shock as well. I bought some more reusable ones and will be wearing them out and about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 31, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Interesting info from the CDC (available from multiple sources)...they revised the death count. Apparently only about 9,800 people are listed as dying from Covid only. All the other deaths had at least 2 comorbidities. It was a downward revision of 94%. Not sure what to make of this yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 03:03:24 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on August 31, 2020, 02:53:03 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 02:48:39 PM

Nice to hear that your finally back home, Milena.  That was a long what... 6-7 months??

Almost five, I just took a little break from posting. Had to enter a 10 day quarantine when I came back too, so overall I spent 38 days in govt-mandated quarantine this year  :mehlin going to a place where masks aren't mandatory and no one cares to really wear them was a bit of a shock as well. I bought some more reusable ones and will be wearing them out and about.

Gotchya... for some reason I thought it was Jan that you went to visit your mom.

Hope all is well for you and your husband - 2020 has been the shits.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 03:10:55 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 31, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Interesting info from the CDC (available from multiple sources)...they revised the death count. Apparently only about 9,800 people are listed as dying from Covid only. All the other deaths had at least 2 comorbidities. It was a downward revision of 94%. Not sure what to make of this yet.

Even if what your saying was actually true, that's tantamount to saying pneumonia doesn't kill anyone, it's lung failure or suffocation.  Liver cancer doesn't kill, it's liver failure.  C'mon.  This is semantics.

But more importantly, you need to up your fact-checking and critical thinking skills Emtee.... What Trump actually did was retweet the patently untrue assertion of a QAnon supporter that new CDC data contained a bombshell: only six percent of people died from COVID-19 alone, meaning that the death count and fear of the pandemic has been falsely inflated. On Sunday “only 6%” was trending on Twitter.

 Twitter Removes Claim About CDC And Covid-19 Coronavirus Deaths That Trump Retweeted (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/08/31/twitter-removes-claim-about-cdc-and-covid-19-coronavirus-deaths-that-trump-retweeted/#2c39746e3178)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on August 31, 2020, 04:12:31 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 03:10:55 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 31, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Interesting info from the CDC (available from multiple sources)...they revised the death count. Apparently only about 9,800 people are listed as dying from Covid only. All the other deaths had at least 2 comorbidities. It was a downward revision of 94%. Not sure what to make of this yet.

Even if what your saying was actually true, that's tantamount to saying pneumonia doesn't kill anyone, it's lung failure or suffocation.  Liver cancer doesn't kill, it's liver failure.  C'mon.  This is semantics.

But more importantly, you need to up your fact-checking and critical thinking skills Emtee.... What Trump actually did was retweet the patently untrue assertion of a QAnon supporter that new CDC data contained a bombshell: only six percent of people died from COVID-19 alone, meaning that the death count and fear of the pandemic has been falsely inflated. On Sunday “only 6%” was trending on Twitter.

 Twitter Removes Claim About CDC And Covid-19 Coronavirus Deaths That Trump Retweeted (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/08/31/twitter-removes-claim-about-cdc-and-covid-19-coronavirus-deaths-that-trump-retweeted/#2c39746e3178)

Well, the data seemingly does say only ~9800 died of JUST covid19.  So that may be a fact (I've only read of this CDC update, didn't actually see it myself) but it doesn't really downplay the virus too much though.  To me, it just means what we knew all along.  If you are young and healthy you are very unlikely to die for covid19.  But it also shows exactly what we've known for a long time as well.  If you are old and/or have pre existing conditions, covid19 could definitely end your life early.  And since such a significant amount of americans are obese, I feel that's why the US has a lot more deaths, and more potential for more because we aren't a very healthy nation. 

I don't think this "new" data really changes anything other than maybe if you are healthy and young, there isn't too much to worry about in terms of dying from covid19.  However, we still don't know long term impacts so it's best to just not get the virus at all if possible.

I read this more about just getting the data to be a bit more accurate, but doesn't really change any of the realities.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on August 31, 2020, 04:18:57 PM

Umm, why would/did you assume I got that info from a Trump tweet? I had no clue he tweeted about it. I got the info from a local news station while I ate lunch in the hospital break room and then scanned a few sites to check the accuracy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on August 31, 2020, 07:48:46 PM

Ladies and gentlemen,  I have your new mask.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTBQcMQJ/FB-IMG-1598924757463.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dLkfvP1Y)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on August 31, 2020, 07:51:14 PM

 :rollin :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on August 31, 2020, 08:53:56 PM

No joke, if they can just remove that real hair label, and just find some way to get an image of his hair on a mask, I probably would buy it at a more reasonable price like the price of a regular mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 01, 2020, 10:12:13 AM

Along the lines of what emtee is saying, I get news feeds each day, and if not every day, then every other day there's something like this: 

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-09-01-20-intl/h_b2168384e6d0848acc82ef10d2bdef80

Trump is full of garbage on a lot of COVID information, but on this, he's right.  This "ramping up" is being delivered as something to be feared (following the delivery of this information, the article says "Only two other countries in the world have over 1 million reported Covid-19 cases -- Brazil and India.  But there's a bit of good news for the US, according to health experts.") but this is actually likely due just as much to better testing and more knowledge on identifying those with the disease, not necessarily malfeasance.

And I read another article this morning that I cannot find now (a trend I've noted a fair amount recently):   The article was extremely critical: it noted the US had 22% of the world's cases (it's actually 24% as we speak) but only 4% of the population.  The implication of course, is that we're severely deficient in our response to COVID, falsely comparing us to every other country no matter how big, small, isolated, or not.   It then cited the Brazil and India numbers.  NOWHERE in the first five paragraphs (I counted) did it even mention China.   China is currently 38th on the list of total cases, with 85,058 (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/). Per 1 million pop, that's 200th in the world.  200th!  Out of 215!   The US is not the worst in terms of population adjusted figures; we are 10th in cases per 1 million pop, and 11th in deaths (this is actually an improvement from two weeks ago, when we were 9 and 10 respectively).   If you extrapolate out China's "true" cases, using the same percentage of "cases/1 million people" as the US (not unreasonable), you get over 27 MILLION cases, or more than the entire world so far, COMBINED.   That certainly changes our "percentage of the world cases (dropping it to just over 10%); still more than our percentage of the world population, but a lot more in line with our place as a business and travel hub (our travel economy was a $1.8 TRILLION industry in 2019, largest in the world in absolute dollars (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/countries-reliant-tourism/).)

I get it - eyeballs, viewers, readers - but why is it so darn hard to just present information, instead of making EVERYTHING a political statement or advocacy piece.  Something I have asked repeatedly:  why can't we be allowed to draw our own conclusions?  Does the press not realize that for all of Trump's nonsense about "FAKE NEWS", when they publish things like that and people - reasonable people, not people prone to conspiracy theories - dig in and find things that don't add up, it just adds to their faltering credibility?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 01, 2020, 10:24:02 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on August 31, 2020, 07:48:46 PM

Ladies and gentlemen,  I have your new mask.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTBQcMQJ/FB-IMG-1598924757463.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dLkfvP1Y)

"79% real hair" invites SO many questions.  I'd wear that, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on September 01, 2020, 10:26:10 AM

Regarding the 6% COVID death thingy, I saw this today.  It was written by a friend of my cousin - the friend works in the medical industry. 

I feel that this is more believable and accurate than the CDC just up and deciding to eliminate 94% of COVID deaths.  This is pretty much how I've felt that the virus tends to work, in a similar manner to AIDS.  You don't die of "AIDS," you die of some illness that took hold in you because AIDS decimated your body and it couldn't fight anything off.


Since there’s some confusion, here’s a quick breakdown of the CDC’s weekly update of the COVID death count:

6% died strictly of COVID
+
94% died of things like respiratory failure caused by pneumonia caused by COVID, with COVID as the culprit. This group had other health problems too making it more difficult for them to fight the virus. They also sometimes developed new health problems from the virus.
=
100% of the 160,000+ people tracked by the CDC so far have died of COVID, not 6%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 01, 2020, 10:38:06 AM

Quote from: Grappler on September 01, 2020, 10:26:10 AM

Regarding the 6% COVID death thingy, I saw this today.  It was written by a friend of my cousin - the friend works in the medical industry. 

I feel that this is more believable and accurate than the CDC just up and deciding to eliminate 94% of COVID deaths.  This is pretty much how I've felt that the virus tends to work, in a similar manner to AIDS.  You don't die of "AIDS," you die of some illness that took hold in you because AIDS decimated your body and it couldn't fight anything off.


Since there’s some confusion, here’s a quick breakdown of the CDC’s weekly update of the COVID death count:

6% died strictly of COVID
+
94% died of things like respiratory failure caused by pneumonia caused by COVID, with COVID as the culprit. This group had other health problems too making it more difficult for them to fight the virus. They also sometimes developed new health problems from the virus.
=
100% of the 160,000+ people tracked by the CDC so far have died of COVID, not 6%.

Yea, I agree.  Also, question yourself this.... the other 94%, would they still be alive today if they didn't get covid?  I'd guess some would have died in the last 6 months, but certainly not most of them.  Which means covid is still a major reason why the 94% died when they died.

My grandma is an example.  Very old, but she wasn't on her death bed until she got covid.  She'd likely still be alive today if she didn't get the virus although given her age, we didn't expect her to last many more years yet she was taken from us earlier than expected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 02, 2020, 06:21:36 AM

Quote from: emtee on August 31, 2020, 04:18:57 PM

Umm, why would/did you assume I got that info from a Trump tweet? I had no clue he tweeted about it. I got the info from a local news station while I ate lunch in the hospital break room and then scanned a few sites to check the accuracy.

Apologies... I did not mean to directly assume that you got the info from a Trump tweet.  Most every source I found when looking up this information referred to Trump retweeting the theory (and I copy/pasted a sentence from an article as such), and other reputable sources debunking the black/white notion and interpretation of the CDC's report that only 6% of the deaths are a result of COVID-19.  I didn't mean to directly imply you got this info solely from Trump's twitter.  My bad.

Quote from: cramx3 on August 31, 2020, 04:12:31 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on August 31, 2020, 03:10:55 PM

Quote from: emtee on August 31, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Interesting info from the CDC (available from multiple sources)...they revised the death count. Apparently only about 9,800 people are listed as dying from Covid only. All the other deaths had at least 2 comorbidities. It was a downward revision of 94%. Not sure what to make of this yet.

Even if what your saying was actually true, that's tantamount to saying pneumonia doesn't kill anyone, it's lung failure or suffocation.  Liver cancer doesn't kill, it's liver failure.  C'mon.  This is semantics.

But more importantly, you need to up your fact-checking and critical thinking skills Emtee.... What Trump actually did was retweet the patently untrue assertion of a QAnon supporter that new CDC data contained a bombshell: only six percent of people died from COVID-19 alone, meaning that the death count and fear of the pandemic has been falsely inflated. On Sunday “only 6%” was trending on Twitter.

 Twitter Removes Claim About CDC And Covid-19 Coronavirus Deaths That Trump Retweeted (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/08/31/twitter-removes-claim-about-cdc-and-covid-19-coronavirus-deaths-that-trump-retweeted/#2c39746e3178)

I don't think this "new" data really changes anything other than maybe if you are healthy and young, there isn't too much to worry about in terms of dying from covid19.  However, we still don't know long term impacts so it's best to just not get the virus at all if possible.

This is kinda dangerous thinking though.  For one, just because there isn't much risk of dying if you're young an healthy, there is A) a good chance of serious health issues, and B) a good chance of spreading it and keeping this damned thing going.  On the former point, I know two people who contracted it, both younger than me.  One had a helluva hospital stay (as well as a hell week leading up to it), and was sent home with an oxygen tank.  The other passed.

Secondly, as I mentioned in another thread, diabetes and obesity affect what ... 2/3's of the US population?  So $200M+ are not "healthy".  Even the slightest insinuation that COVID has only resulted in 9,400 deaths is a dangerous perception to throw out there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 02, 2020, 07:03:56 AM

Chad, I'm not at all saying you're wrong, or even responding to you directly, but this general discussion highlights the difference between "truth" and "agenda".   For all Trump's fake news, and all the criticisms of his lying, it's really about his AGENDA at the end of the day, because the fact is - and yes, I said "fact" - that as a general rule, Col. Jessup was right:  we can't HANDLE the truth.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 02, 2020, 07:09:22 AM

No problems J.B., it's all good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 02, 2020, 07:24:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 02, 2020, 07:03:56 AM

Chad, I'm not at all saying you're wrong, or even responding to you directly, but this general discussion highlights the difference between "truth" and "agenda".   For all Trump's fake news, and all the criticisms of his lying, it's really about his AGENDA at the end of the day, because the fact is - and yes, I said "fact" - that as a general rule, Col. Jessup was right:  we can't HANDLE the truth.

I couldn't agree more.  And for some, that's all that matters to them (politically speaking).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 02, 2020, 07:27:41 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 12:37:16 PM

I should also clarify, I think ass eating is disgusting and maybe would rather put on a mask before my mouth ever went into someone's anus  :lol

I know a girl who once - maybe still - keeps her ass so clean you could eat dinner off it, if it weren't the main course itself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 02, 2020, 07:40:51 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 02, 2020, 07:27:41 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 12:37:16 PM

I should also clarify, I think ass eating is disgusting and maybe would rather put on a mask before my mouth ever went into someone's anus  :lol

I know a girl who once - maybe still - keeps her ass so clean you could eat dinner off it, if it weren't the main course itself.

 :lol I've listened to enough Howard Stern to know the process of cleaning an anus before anal "fun" but I just can't get into any of that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on September 02, 2020, 07:42:01 AM

So.... how about that darn Corona virus huh?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 02, 2020, 07:43:13 AM

 :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 02, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

Quote from: Zydar on September 02, 2020, 07:42:01 AM

So.... how about that darn Corona virus huh?

I'd rather no-prep anal over getting the corona virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 02, 2020, 07:52:08 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 02, 2020, 07:27:41 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 12:37:16 PM

I should also clarify, I think ass eating is disgusting and maybe would rather put on a mask before my mouth ever went into someone's anus  :lol

I know a girl who once - maybe still - keeps her ass so clean you could eat dinner off it, if it weren't the main course itself.

You have to admire her for being prepared.    :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 02, 2020, 07:55:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 02, 2020, 07:52:08 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 02, 2020, 07:27:41 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on August 25, 2020, 12:37:16 PM

I should also clarify, I think ass eating is disgusting and maybe would rather put on a mask before my mouth ever went into someone's anus  :lol

I know a girl who once - maybe still - keeps her ass so clean you could eat dinner off it, if it weren't the main course itself.

You have to admire her for being prepared.    :)

That woman was - maybe still is - always prepared.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on September 02, 2020, 07:27:16 PM

Quote from: Grappler on September 01, 2020, 10:26:10 AM

Regarding the 6% COVID death thingy, I saw this today.  It was written by a friend of my cousin - the friend works in the medical industry. 

I feel that this is more believable and accurate than the CDC just up and deciding to eliminate 94% of COVID deaths.  This is pretty much how I've felt that the virus tends to work, in a similar manner to AIDS.  You don't die of "AIDS," you die of some illness that took hold in you because AIDS decimated your body and it couldn't fight anything off.


Since there’s some confusion, here’s a quick breakdown of the CDC’s weekly update of the COVID death count:

6% died strictly of COVID
+
94% died of things like respiratory failure caused by pneumonia caused by COVID, with COVID as the culprit. This group had other health problems too making it more difficult for them to fight the virus. They also sometimes developed new health problems from the virus.
=
100% of the 160,000+ people tracked by the CDC so far have died of COVID, not 6%.

Local radio personality put it best...if it wasn't for covid, 100% of those people would still be alive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on September 03, 2020, 01:00:38 AM

Awww, I didn't want to shed some tears before going to bed, but seeing The Rock announced that he and his family was deemed tested positive had me weeping a bit.  Thankfully, they are looking like they are on the recovering end of it which is good news.  Here's his video about it below.  He's just naturally a great talker, but we all know that.

https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/1301315778197835777

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on September 03, 2020, 02:10:12 AM

Quote from: emtee on August 31, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Interesting info from the CDC (available from multiple sources)...they revised the death count. Apparently only about 9,800 people are listed as dying from Covid only. All the other deaths had at least 2 comorbidities. It was a downward revision of 94%. Not sure what to make of this yet.

The death count has not been revised. And you do not need any news sources, the cdc has a whole lot of public data. There is a maddening amount of disinformation or misleading interpretations on the web these days, in general both the WHO and CDC (and other institutions) have comprehensive websites that clarify almost all of the questions a layman may have.

The general covid page of the CDC, with the latest actual data:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm)

And here are their actual guidelines for coding covid deaths:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/coding-and-reporting.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/coding-and-reporting.htm)
Including a tutorial video that takes you through a death certificate step by step.



And here is the Q&A of the WHO, which is very comprehensive and continiously updated:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub) (clicking any of these will lead to a lot of sub questions and sources).



 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on September 03, 2020, 07:24:07 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 02, 2020, 07:27:16 PM

Quote from: Grappler on September 01, 2020, 10:26:10 AM

Regarding the 6% COVID death thingy, I saw this today.  It was written by a friend of my cousin - the friend works in the medical industry. 

I feel that this is more believable and accurate than the CDC just up and deciding to eliminate 94% of COVID deaths.  This is pretty much how I've felt that the virus tends to work, in a similar manner to AIDS.  You don't die of "AIDS," you die of some illness that took hold in you because AIDS decimated your body and it couldn't fight anything off.


Since there’s some confusion, here’s a quick breakdown of the CDC’s weekly update of the COVID death count:

6% died strictly of COVID
+
94% died of things like respiratory failure caused by pneumonia caused by COVID, with COVID as the culprit. This group had other health problems too making it more difficult for them to fight the virus. They also sometimes developed new health problems from the virus.
=
100% of the 160,000+ people tracked by the CDC so far have died of COVID, not 6%.

Local radio personality put it best...if it wasn't for covid, 100% of those people would still be alive.

Maybe not 100% but certainly a very significant majority. With 80%+ of deaths coming in nursing home environments where the death rate is fairly high anyway, there were a decent chunk that weren't making it through the year regardless. Not that that diminishes the severity of Covid though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 03, 2020, 08:28:23 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 03, 2020, 07:24:07 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 02, 2020, 07:27:16 PM

Quote from: Grappler on September 01, 2020, 10:26:10 AM

Regarding the 6% COVID death thingy, I saw this today.  It was written by a friend of my cousin - the friend works in the medical industry. 

I feel that this is more believable and accurate than the CDC just up and deciding to eliminate 94% of COVID deaths.  This is pretty much how I've felt that the virus tends to work, in a similar manner to AIDS.  You don't die of "AIDS," you die of some illness that took hold in you because AIDS decimated your body and it couldn't fight anything off.


Since there’s some confusion, here’s a quick breakdown of the CDC’s weekly update of the COVID death count:

6% died strictly of COVID
+
94% died of things like respiratory failure caused by pneumonia caused by COVID, with COVID as the culprit. This group had other health problems too making it more difficult for them to fight the virus. They also sometimes developed new health problems from the virus.
=
100% of the 160,000+ people tracked by the CDC so far have died of COVID, not 6%.

Local radio personality put it best...if it wasn't for covid, 100% of those people would still be alive.

Maybe not 100% but certainly a very significant majority. With 80%+ of deaths coming in nursing home environments where the death rate is fairly high anyway, there were a decent chunk that weren't making it through the year regardless. Not that that diminishes the severity of Covid though.

If not Covid-19, what is the threshold of sickness they will succumb to?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 03, 2020, 09:53:48 AM

Some positive news today

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-tells-states-prepare-distribution-231945460.html (https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-tells-states-prepare-distribution-231945460.html)

Quote

The director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told governors last week to prepare for the "large-scale" distribution of a coronavirus vaccine by Nov. 1, according to a letter obtained Wednesday by NBC News.
...
It remains highly uncertain, however, whether a vaccine will be ready by then or which manufacturer will make it. The Nov. 1 target date is two days before the presidential election.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/corticosteroids-deemed-an-effective-inexpensive-and-safe-treatment-for-severe-covid-19-230437532.html (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/corticosteroids-deemed-an-effective-inexpensive-and-safe-treatment-for-severe-covid-19-230437532.html)

Quote

The World Health Organization released official guidance on Wednesday recommending that doctors use corticosteroids to treat “severe and critical COVID-19 patients,” a decision timed to the release of a major meta-analysis of research in JAMA showing that the anti-inflammatory drug — used to treat conditions like arthritis — is capable of reducing the mortality rate for COVID-19 patients by as much as a third.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on September 03, 2020, 11:15:45 AM

Did anybody watch Dwayne Johnson's video explaining how he and his family all came down with the virus?  The guy is one of the fittest and healthiest people on the planet, yet he sounded like he got hit by a freight train when he started talking and he mentioned that he's been through a lot of bad times and injuries over his career and that this was the worst. 

My family won't be going to the lengths that his now is as far as quarantining and having all visitors tested, but it's a nice reminder to not get too complacent if you want to stay healthy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 03, 2020, 11:21:54 AM

So... my college buddies and I get together each year around Labor Day for a golf tournament.  Been doing it for going on 20 years now.   This year's is... Saturday.  About 20 of us signed up (usually it's at least 30, some years as high as 40).   I know all the people going, and basically where they've been and with whom.  It's all outside, and I will bring a mask.

But...  I'm confident, but not certain.  I want to go - these are people closer to me than most of my family - but I'm not going to lie, I'm getting skittish.  I just talked with my boss about a major litigation we're in and a meeting in California in October, and he was clear: if it's not necessary, we're not going to be in person.  That's not exactly the same thing; there's travel there, and the meetings are indoors, but still.    I have almost exactly 48 hours to decide (10:15 tee time on Saturday).   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 03, 2020, 11:31:20 AM

I'd probably go, outdoors seem to be much safer and I think it might be good for your mental health to connect with other people.  I wish I had some friends gathering to go to, everyone is pretty much skittish but I'm starting to lose my own skittishness, NJ is doing really well.  People aren't really sick here in any great numbers.  I'd love to do something to give me some semblance of normalcy again with friends.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 03, 2020, 11:34:49 AM

Bill, you'll be fine. I wouldn't sweat it. If you really want to feel extra safe, take your own cart (assuming you're not walking since it's a tournament).

Golfing is the only "normal" thing I've really gotten to do all summer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on September 03, 2020, 12:24:38 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 03, 2020, 07:24:07 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 02, 2020, 07:27:16 PM

Quote from: Grappler on September 01, 2020, 10:26:10 AM

Regarding the 6% COVID death thingy, I saw this today.  It was written by a friend of my cousin - the friend works in the medical industry. 

I feel that this is more believable and accurate than the CDC just up and deciding to eliminate 94% of COVID deaths.  This is pretty much how I've felt that the virus tends to work, in a similar manner to AIDS.  You don't die of "AIDS," you die of some illness that took hold in you because AIDS decimated your body and it couldn't fight anything off.


Since there’s some confusion, here’s a quick breakdown of the CDC’s weekly update of the COVID death count:

6% died strictly of COVID
+
94% died of things like respiratory failure caused by pneumonia caused by COVID, with COVID as the culprit. This group had other health problems too making it more difficult for them to fight the virus. They also sometimes developed new health problems from the virus.
=
100% of the 160,000+ people tracked by the CDC so far have died of COVID, not 6%.

Local radio personality put it best...if it wasn't for covid, 100% of those people would still be alive.

Maybe not 100% but certainly a very significant majority. With 80%+ of deaths coming in nursing home environments where the death rate is fairly high anyway, there were a decent chunk that weren't making it through the year regardless. Not that that diminishes the severity of Covid though.

Offcourse many people that died of covid where elderly, but the bolded line is not very likely. The flu does that yearly and already did it's usual sweep late 2019/early 2020. And more importantly: the excess death is significantly higher than other years over the last decade, in basically every western nation that tracks it, meaning that a lot more people are dying statistically than other years (which goes against the notion of "would've died this year regardless"). And the increase in excess deaths is even larger than the total amount of counted covid deaths, also to a signifcant degree.

USA excess death data:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on September 03, 2020, 12:28:54 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 03, 2020, 11:21:54 AM

So... my college buddies and I get together each year around Labor Day for a golf tournament.  Been doing it for going on 20 years now.   This year's is... Saturday.  About 20 of us signed up (usually it's at least 30, some years as high as 40).   I know all the people going, and basically where they've been and with whom.  It's all outside, and I will bring a mask.

But...  I'm confident, but not certain.  I want to go - these are people closer to me than most of my family - but I'm not going to lie, I'm getting skittish.  I just talked with my boss about a major litigation we're in and a meeting in California in October, and he was clear: if it's not necessary, we're not going to be in person.  That's not exactly the same thing; there's travel there, and the meetings are indoors, but still.    I have almost exactly 48 hours to decide (10:15 tee time on Saturday).   

Yeah, 2 things on opposite sides:  I know you intellectually know the first, but I see this all the time, including in myself, and your post sort of went in that direction, so I'll say it anyway:  resist the almost unconscious urge to let your guard down and say to yourself, "I know So-and-So, and he's a good person, so surely he wouldn't have caught it and I'm fine being around him."  I know nobody actually says that.  But a lot of us (again, myself included to an extent) can sometimes act as if that were true, even though we know it isn't.

That being said, golf is about the safest thing you can do.  Unless you are sharing a cart, which you should be able to avoid, I think it's pretty easy to maintain distancing the entire time.  Perhaps less so at meals and other activities associated with the event, but it should be easy to find out in advance what precautions they are taking, and to bow out of any specific activities where proper caution is not being exercised.  The thing that would make me the most skittish is getting on a plane to travel there.  I heard some nightmare stories from early on in all this about airlines promising certain capacities and distancing, only for passengers to see that that was being completely ignored once they got to the plane.  But on the flip side, I haven't heard any of those types of stories lately, and I have a good fried who is a doctor and is very cautious, and he has made a couple of voluntary cross-country flights with his wife, and had very little concerns.  Wearing a mask, and staying distant, etc. (if I was going to get on a plane though, I would probably try to procure an N95 mask--remember, the typical masks most of us wear are designed to lessen the chance of the wearer spreading infection to others; an N95 does the opposite and allows the wearer to be safe in a contaminated environment [but does not necessarily keep others safe if the wearer is infected, because it expels the wearer's breath largely unfiltered]). 

If it was me, I think I would probably go if I was comfortable that I could distance at the event and not attend any events that made me uncomfortable.  But I can't say I wouldn't still be a bit concerned. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on September 03, 2020, 01:41:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 03, 2020, 09:53:48 AM

Some positive news today

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-tells-states-prepare-distribution-231945460.html (https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-tells-states-prepare-distribution-231945460.html)

Quote

The director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told governors last week to prepare for the "large-scale" distribution of a coronavirus vaccine by Nov. 1, according to a letter obtained Wednesday by NBC News.
...
It remains highly uncertain, however, whether a vaccine will be ready by then or which manufacturer will make it. The Nov. 1 target date is two days before the presidential election.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/corticosteroids-deemed-an-effective-inexpensive-and-safe-treatment-for-severe-covid-19-230437532.html (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/corticosteroids-deemed-an-effective-inexpensive-and-safe-treatment-for-severe-covid-19-230437532.html)

Quote

The World Health Organization released official guidance on Wednesday recommending that doctors use corticosteroids to treat “severe and critical COVID-19 patients,” a decision timed to the release of a major meta-analysis of research in JAMA showing that the anti-inflammatory drug — used to treat conditions like arthritis — is capable of reducing the mortality rate for COVID-19 patients by as much as a third.

You know, all this talk of fast-tracking plus the date interestingly just before the election - color me suspicious. I am the furthest thing from a denier, but if they try to jam a vaccine down our throats for what might appear to be political reasons, I'll wait and see how the first batch of takers plays out.

I want a vaccine more than anyone, but I also want it done right and properly vetted and tested. Not fast-tracked through the system.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 03, 2020, 02:36:39 PM

https://www.insider.com/wear-face-mask-during-sex-says-canada-chief-medical-officer-2020-9

Okay now this is just silly. Go ahead and stick it in/get stuffed, but wear a mask while you have to breathe hot and heavy. WTF  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 03, 2020, 02:44:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 03, 2020, 02:36:39 PM

https://www.insider.com/wear-face-mask-during-sex-says-canada-chief-medical-officer-2020-9

Okay now this is just silly. Go ahead and stick it in/get stuffed, but wear a mask while you have to breathe hot and heavy. WTF  :lol

Well the hasidic jews have been doing something similar all this time  :lol but yea, like, I typically like to kiss too.  No one will listen to this guideline.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 03, 2020, 02:49:28 PM

Even if you weren't kissing, man, imagine how hot and sweaty your face would get. And how are you supposed to eat ass with a mask!?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 03, 2020, 02:53:20 PM

And I can't imagine any woman wants to kiss a guy (or have them toss the salad) with a mask tucked down under the chin.  "Mask" and "sex" sounds like a no win situation to me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 03, 2020, 02:53:27 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 03, 2020, 02:44:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 03, 2020, 02:36:39 PM

https://www.insider.com/wear-face-mask-during-sex-says-canada-chief-medical-officer-2020-9

Okay now this is just silly. Go ahead and stick it in/get stuffed, but wear a mask while you have to breathe hot and heavy. WTF  :lol

Well the hasidic jews have been doing something similar all this time  :lol but yea, like, I typically like to kiss too.  No one will listen to this guideline.

Huh?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on September 03, 2020, 03:13:13 PM

My wife’s boss just had her best friend pass due to Covid a couple of weeks ago.  The family decided to plan a celebration of life get together for about 100 friends and family that will be held indoors and outdoors with catered food.

Both the wife and I are like......wut?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 03, 2020, 03:13:21 PM

Quote from: Adami on September 03, 2020, 02:53:27 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 03, 2020, 02:44:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 03, 2020, 02:36:39 PM

https://www.insider.com/wear-face-mask-during-sex-says-canada-chief-medical-officer-2020-9

Okay now this is just silly. Go ahead and stick it in/get stuffed, but wear a mask while you have to breathe hot and heavy. WTF  :lol

Well the hasidic jews have been doing something similar all this time  :lol but yea, like, I typically like to kiss too.  No one will listen to this guideline.

Huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jay8RAwE0iE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jay8RAwE0iE)  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on September 03, 2020, 05:00:49 PM

Kissing with masks, sheets with dick holes and now this - https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/09/glory-holes-pandemic-rise.html

 :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on September 03, 2020, 06:30:20 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 03, 2020, 12:24:38 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 03, 2020, 07:24:07 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 02, 2020, 07:27:16 PM

Quote from: Grappler on September 01, 2020, 10:26:10 AM

Regarding the 6% COVID death thingy, I saw this today.  It was written by a friend of my cousin - the friend works in the medical industry. 

I feel that this is more believable and accurate than the CDC just up and deciding to eliminate 94% of COVID deaths.  This is pretty much how I've felt that the virus tends to work, in a similar manner to AIDS.  You don't die of "AIDS," you die of some illness that took hold in you because AIDS decimated your body and it couldn't fight anything off.


Since there’s some confusion, here’s a quick breakdown of the CDC’s weekly update of the COVID death count:

6% died strictly of COVID
+
94% died of things like respiratory failure caused by pneumonia caused by COVID, with COVID as the culprit. This group had other health problems too making it more difficult for them to fight the virus. They also sometimes developed new health problems from the virus.
=
100% of the 160,000+ people tracked by the CDC so far have died of COVID, not 6%.

Local radio personality put it best...if it wasn't for covid, 100% of those people would still be alive.

Maybe not 100% but certainly a very significant majority. With 80%+ of deaths coming in nursing home environments where the death rate is fairly high anyway, there were a decent chunk that weren't making it through the year regardless. Not that that diminishes the severity of Covid though.

Offcourse many people that died of covid where elderly, but the bolded line is not very likely. The flu does that yearly and already did it's usual sweep late 2019/early 2020. And more importantly: the excess death is significantly higher than other years over the last decade, in basically every western nation that tracks it, meaning that a lot more people are dying statistically than other years (which goes against the notion of "would've died this year regardless"). And the increase in excess deaths is even larger than the total amount of counted covid deaths, also to a signifcant degree.

USA excess death data:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm)

The mortality rate in nursing homes is around 1/4 to 1/3 of the residents every year from all causes. I was only trying to dispute the statement that 100% of the people that died of Covid would still be alive if it weren't for Covid. Again, a significant portion of those that died of Covid were going to die in a nursing home from some other ailment (cancer, heart disease, just plain old age, etc) within weeks or months anyway. Also again, I'm not trying to dispute that Covid isn't dangerous or causing more deaths than a normal year. I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp, but apparently it is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 04, 2020, 07:45:20 AM

Quote from: T-ski on September 03, 2020, 03:13:13 PM

My wife’s boss just had her best friend pass due to Covid a couple of weeks ago.  The family decided to plan a celebration of life get together for about 100 friends and family that will be held indoors and outdoors with catered food.

Both the wife and I are like......wut?

Sounds like "lessons learned" to me!   

I don't mean to joke; my condolences to your wife's boss's friend, but still. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on September 04, 2020, 08:33:12 AM

Chief doctors in the capital region of Finland have found that the virus may have become less aggressive. Despite of an increase in the number of confirmed cases and the estimated R number being above 1 in the area, the amount of patients requiring intensive care is basically zero which has surprised experts. Information on exposure tracing also initially suggests there are less elderly people being tested positive. More research and information is of course needed at this stage but it's an interesting observation, and chief doctors are already advising the government to revise their Covid strategy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 04, 2020, 09:22:55 AM

Quote from: Luoto on September 04, 2020, 08:33:12 AM

Chief doctors in the capital region of Finland have found that the virus may have become less aggressive. Despite of an increase in the number of confirmed cases and the estimated R number being above 1 in the area, the amount of patients requiring intensive care is basically zero which has surprised experts. Information on exposure tracing also initially suggests there are less elderly people being tested positive. More research and information is of course needed at this stage but it's an interesting observation, and chief doctors are already advising the government to revise their Covid strategy.

I've read a few different theories from doctors that the virus may be weakening just based on what you said.  I certainly hope that is the case.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 04, 2020, 11:39:58 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 04, 2020, 09:22:55 AM

Quote from: Luoto on September 04, 2020, 08:33:12 AM

Chief doctors in the capital region of Finland have found that the virus may have become less aggressive. Despite of an increase in the number of confirmed cases and the estimated R number being above 1 in the area, the amount of patients requiring intensive care is basically zero which has surprised experts. Information on exposure tracing also initially suggests there are less elderly people being tested positive. More research and information is of course needed at this stage but it's an interesting observation, and chief doctors are already advising the government to revise their Covid strategy.

I've read a few different theories from doctors that the virus may be weakening just based on what you said.  I certainly hope that is the case.

Oh, wouldn't that be nice!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on September 04, 2020, 11:48:23 AM

Could the virus be weakening or could the human immune system be figuring it out?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on September 04, 2020, 12:22:42 PM

Yes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on September 04, 2020, 03:25:26 PM

NO

Most of us are just being safer in our social interactions.  Others are unlucky, and most of the others are just careless.  Over 1K in fatalities in the States and Brazil show that it 'is what it is'.......deadly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on September 04, 2020, 04:07:54 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on September 04, 2020, 03:25:26 PM

Most of us are just being safer in our social interactions.

While true, that alone doesn't explain the trend here. Thousands of people have been exposed to infection during the last month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on September 04, 2020, 04:24:02 PM

On the other side of the coin: there's been plenty of recent research that shows that a significant proportion of even asymptotic COVID infectees suffer from permanent damage to the heart and lungs. Judging the deadliness of the disease can not be accurately judged until the long term effects are well characterised.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on September 05, 2020, 04:03:12 AM

It is quite simple to explain in our case; the treatment plans are much better now. A press conference about a month ago explained the differences. They use three different types of drugs, as several have been approved due to good results (decreasing chances of ICU, as well as decreasing hospitalization time). And they also know that the illness is not just the respiratory tract, so they know to monitor other organs as well.

Furthermore, for a variety of reasons people in general are less susceptible to infections in the summer. There are plenty of studies indicating that the human immune system performs better in the summer.

And the poster above me is right, there are a lot of potential long term things we do not know. In germany they found active inflammations of the heart months after the fact, in patients that never went to the hospital.

That said, a virus can become less lethal over time, but I wouldn't celebrate just yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 05, 2020, 07:32:56 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 05, 2020, 04:03:12 AM

It is quite simple to explain in our case; the treatment plans are much better now. A press conference about a month ago explained the differences. They use three different types of drugs, as several have been approved due to good results (decreasing chances of ICU, as well as decreasing hospitalization time). And they also know that the illness is not just the respiratory tract, so they know to monitor other organs as well.

Furthermore, for a variety of reasons people in general are less susceptible to infections in the summer. There are plenty of studies indicating that the human immune system performs better in the summer.

And the poster above me is right, there are a lot of potential long term things we do not know. In germany they found active inflammations of the heart months after the fact, in patients that never went to the hospital.

That said, a virus can become less lethal over time, but I wouldn't celebrate just yet.

Just because they didn't go to the hospital doesn't mean they didn't have problems.

Our quarantine restrictions have been eased a bit. You only quarantine if you arrive from land or air, coming from a hotspot state. So for us, that just leaves Colorado, where we can travel and don't have to quarantine upon return.

I'm still confused, exactly how they would know I went to a hotspot location?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on September 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 05, 2020, 07:32:56 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 05, 2020, 04:03:12 AM

It is quite simple to explain in our case; the treatment plans are much better now. A press conference about a month ago explained the differences. They use three different types of drugs, as several have been approved due to good results (decreasing chances of ICU, as well as decreasing hospitalization time). And they also know that the illness is not just the respiratory tract, so they know to monitor other organs as well.

Furthermore, for a variety of reasons people in general are less susceptible to infections in the summer. There are plenty of studies indicating that the human immune system performs better in the summer.

And the poster above me is right, there are a lot of potential long term things we do not know. In germany they found active inflammations of the heart months after the fact, in patients that never went to the hospital.

That said, a virus can become less lethal over time, but I wouldn't celebrate just yet.

Just because they didn't go to the hospital doesn't mean they didn't have problems.

Our quarantine restrictions have been eased a bit. You only quarantine if you arrive from land or air, coming from a hotspot state. So for us, that just leaves Colorado, where we can travel and don't have to quarantine upon return.

I'm still confused, exactly how they would know I went to a hotspot location?

Said study included asymptomatic cases, though a small number (n=18)  so scale remains to be seen. Unfortunately this will take time, but the point is to remain careful for the time being.

But more data is coming in since that study.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-can-wreck-your-heart-even-if-you-havent-had-any-symptoms/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-can-wreck-your-heart-even-if-you-havent-had-any-symptoms/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on September 05, 2020, 01:39:29 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM

But more data is coming in since that study.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-can-wreck-your-heart-even-if-you-havent-had-any-symptoms/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-can-wreck-your-heart-even-if-you-havent-had-any-symptoms/)

Damn....  just the link verbage scares the hell outta me!   :lol  ( I have heart disease and 3 stents)  I did read this article yesterday and found it interesting.  Especially the Vitamin D part.  If it's already been posted here my apologies...

https://elemental.medium.com/a-supercomputer-analyzed-covid-19-and-an-interesting-new-theory-has-emerged-31cb8eba9d63

It is a lengthy article but here is the Vitamin D section that really peaked my curiosity....

Interestingly, Jacobson’s team also suggests vitamin D as a potentially useful Covid-19 drug. The vitamin is involved in the RAS system and could prove helpful by reducing levels of another compound, known as REN. Again, this could stop potentially deadly bradykinin storms from forming. The researchers note that vitamin D has already been shown to help those with Covid-19. The vitamin is readily available over the counter, and around 20% of the population is deficient. If indeed the vitamin proves effective at reducing the severity of bradykinin storms, it could be an easy, relatively safe way to reduce the severity of the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 05, 2020, 02:40:02 PM

I've been vitamin D deficient for awhile but last year when I started working out and getting into better shape I started taking vitamins. Just in time it seems to shed that obesity and get healthy. I feel fortunate that I took action when I did.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on September 05, 2020, 02:49:13 PM

I had heard of the benefits of vitamin D months ago along with vitamin C. If you find it hard to get vitamin D remember, you can also get this vitamin from the sun and boy howdy, did I get a bunch of vitamin D today!  :coolio

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on September 06, 2020, 06:30:45 AM

There was great Radiolab episode on Vitamin D and it's usefulness in combating Covid, if anyone wants to listen here is a link https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/invisible-allies

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on September 06, 2020, 10:52:31 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on September 06, 2020, 06:30:45 AM

There was great Radiolab episode on Vitamin D and it's usefulness in combating Covid, if anyone wants to listen here is a link https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/invisible-allies

Thanks!  I'll give it a listen when I get off work!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on September 08, 2020, 10:31:50 AM

Sturgis now linked to an estimated 250k cases of covid at a public health cost of over 12 billion dollars.

"We conclude that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally generated public health costs of approximately $12.2 billion," the researchers wrote in a paper. "This is enough to have paid each of the estimated 462,182 rally attendees $26,553.64 not to attend."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 08, 2020, 10:34:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 08, 2020, 10:31:50 AM

Sturgis now linked to an estimated 250k cases of covid at a public health cost of over 12 billion dollars.

"We conclude that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally generated public health costs of approximately $12.2 billion," the researchers wrote in a paper. "This is enough to have paid each of the estimated 462,182 rally attendees $26,553.64 not to attend."

Freedom isn’t free bro!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 10:50:32 AM

Quote from: Adami on September 08, 2020, 10:34:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 08, 2020, 10:31:50 AM

Sturgis now linked to an estimated 250k cases of covid at a public health cost of over 12 billion dollars.

"We conclude that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally generated public health costs of approximately $12.2 billion," the researchers wrote in a paper. "This is enough to have paid each of the estimated 462,182 rally attendees $26,553.64 not to attend."

Freedom isn’t free bro!

While I will not defend the Sturgis gathering at all......I will say though that it'd be nice to have the numbers of Covid cases caused by the massive amount of BLM/Trump etc etc protests. I get wanting to point out what a bone head thing that was to allow to take place but it really is hypocritical to then ignore the large amount of protest and 'protesters' at these 'protests' and not put the effort into reporting how those are aiding in the spread of the virus as well. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 08, 2020, 10:53:12 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 10:50:32 AM

Quote from: Adami on September 08, 2020, 10:34:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 08, 2020, 10:31:50 AM

Sturgis now linked to an estimated 250k cases of covid at a public health cost of over 12 billion dollars.

"We conclude that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally generated public health costs of approximately $12.2 billion," the researchers wrote in a paper. "This is enough to have paid each of the estimated 462,182 rally attendees $26,553.64 not to attend."

Freedom isn’t free bro!

While I will not defend the Sturgis gathering at all......I will say though that it'd be nice to have the numbers of Covid cases caused by the massive amount of BLM/Trump etc etc protests. I get wanting to point out what a bone head thing that was to allow to take place but it really is hypocritical to then ignore the large amount of protest and 'protesters' at these 'protests' and not put the effort into reporting how those are aiding in the spread of the virus as well.

I dunno. I imagine it might be hard to actually figure out. The people at sturgis will gladly say they were there and so forth. I doubt the rioters will be so willing to fess up if questioned. Plus, while I can’t speak for all the riots etc, a ton of the protesters do wear masks and try to respect social distancing. I think Sturgis is making the news due to how anti mask it was.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 11:00:28 AM

Im not sure you can compare Sturgis to a protest. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 11:04:55 AM

Quote from: Adami on September 08, 2020, 10:53:12 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 10:50:32 AM

Quote from: Adami on September 08, 2020, 10:34:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on September 08, 2020, 10:31:50 AM

Sturgis now linked to an estimated 250k cases of covid at a public health cost of over 12 billion dollars.

"We conclude that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally generated public health costs of approximately $12.2 billion," the researchers wrote in a paper. "This is enough to have paid each of the estimated 462,182 rally attendees $26,553.64 not to attend."

Freedom isn’t free bro!

While I will not defend the Sturgis gathering at all......I will say though that it'd be nice to have the numbers of Covid cases caused by the massive amount of BLM/Trump etc etc protests. I get wanting to point out what a bone head thing that was to allow to take place but it really is hypocritical to then ignore the large amount of protest and 'protesters' at these 'protests' and not put the effort into reporting how those are aiding in the spread of the virus as well.

I dunno. I imagine it might be hard to actually figure out. The people at sturgis will gladly say they were there and so forth. I doubt the rioters will be so willing to fess up if questioned. Plus, while I can’t speak for all the riots etc, a ton of the protesters do wear masks and try to respect social distancing. I think Sturgis is making the news due to how anti mask it was.

I agree that Sturgis was/is a pretty 'simple' event to calculate given how open the attendees were/are to admitting they were there and not wearing masks. And while I do see a good portion of protesters wearing masks....it's certainly not all of them. I don't know how you'd estimate a percentage of those who wear them but given the size of the protests and gatherings even if it's 80% that's still another 20% who aren't.....and that's a few hundred if not thousand people (given the gathering) who 'could' potentially be spreading this thing.

I guess my larger point is that the fact that protesters aren't wearing masks or social distancing really isn't a point that the media seems to care about discussing. It's about the protests or whatever. It's a 'free pass' so to speak to ignore any and all the protocols that we've been begging people to adhere to. Sturgis comes along and it's just easy pickin's and which I guess is why that we will now get all the info that RJ shared....but since it's a bunch of dumb white trump loving bikers it'll be hammered on even more in the media.

Quote from: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 11:00:28 AM

Im not sure you can compare Sturgis to a protest. 

Why? because of the content? Does BLM give a free pass to ignore the guidelines that we've all been asked to adhere to?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 11:07:24 AM

Sturgis was a huge party essentially, lots of eating and drinking.  Protests are more of a gathering.  So while both are large groups of people, one isn't really socializing for significant period of time without masks. (can't drink a beer with a mask on)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 11:16:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 11:07:24 AM

Sturgis was a huge party essentially, lots of eating and drinking.  Protests are more of a gathering.  So while both are large groups of people, one isn't really socializing for significant period of time without masks. (can't drink a beer with a mask on)

I get it. And think that Sturgis not being cancelled was a huge mistake. BUT.....both Sturgis and the protests are the same at the core because it's an exercise of freedom.....no matter if one is a better cause or not. Both are and were risks to the greater public health in this time of Covid-19 but yet we still get daily protests of which some last for days.....or in the case of the Portland rioting...weeks upon end. And for whatever reason the Sturgis gathering was not cancelled even though ever ounce of data that we have to date suggested it'd be a huge boom for Coronavirus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on September 08, 2020, 12:02:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on September 08, 2020, 10:31:50 AM

Sturgis now linked to an estimated 250k cases of covid at a public health cost of over 12 billion dollars.

"We conclude that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally generated public health costs of approximately $12.2 billion," the researchers wrote in a paper. "This is enough to have paid each of the estimated 462,182 rally attendees $26,553.64 not to attend."

I did not attend. Does this mean I get free money?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 08, 2020, 12:10:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 11:07:24 AM

Sturgis was a huge party essentially, lots of eating and drinking.  Protests are more of a gathering.  So while both are large groups of people, one isn't really socializing for significant period of time without masks. (can't drink a beer with a mask on)

Or eat ass.  I mean, c'mon. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 12:16:20 PM

My ass was just tingling. Who's eating ass?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 12:17:00 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 08, 2020, 12:10:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 11:07:24 AM

Sturgis was a huge party essentially, lots of eating and drinking.  Protests are more of a gathering.  So while both are large groups of people, one isn't really socializing for significant period of time without masks. (can't drink a beer with a mask on)

Or eat ass.  I mean, c'mon.

And I'm sure there was lots of that going on too.  I just can't compare a party atmosphere to a protest.  The way people socialize at parties is exactly the way this virus spreads.  Wearing a mask and just being close to many people outdoors has so far not been a way of mass spreading the disease.  If someone has some stats to show that protests have drove up the number of cases, that could change my opinion but I haven't seen any of that data.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 12:43:17 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 12:17:00 PM

  If someone has some stats to show that protests have drove up the number of cases, that could change my opinion but I haven't seen any of that data.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make.....but poorly. I don't think there is a massive effort going on to determine how much Covid is being spread due to these protests. The mass protests and subsequent days/weeks of rioting and unrest seem to be immune to the criticisms that many other entities/individuals etc etc face when it comes to recognizing and implementing the safety features that are recommended for Covid. Sturgis was certainly easy to single out due to the attitude of the participants but the protest movement in general gets a free pass and it's a pretty glaring example of the hypocrisy of the media.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on September 08, 2020, 12:52:31 PM

Without making this too political (or else this should move to the P&R Subforum), I'm not sure I'm following your line of logic there. Mass events that are planned beforehand are a stupidly bad idea when you know there's a global pandemic that you help spread by organising a nationwide event. In most other Western countries (and probably the whole world at the moment) mass gatherings are not allowed for that exact reason. People not giving a shit at all and going anyway (the whole event even taking place) and not adhering to any rules whatsoever is at the very least inconsiderate and probably anti-social. Protest are not 'planned' in that same sense, they don't attract people from all over the country to a single spot and they're not the same sort of social gathering that a festival would be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 12:54:06 PM

Also the protests are pretty important and the Sturgis rally isn't important at all. Risk your health and safety to make your voice heard and be part of an important movement, or risk your health and safety to go to the Sturgis rally to possibly eat ass or get your ass eaten?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 12:59:08 PM

Quote from: Elite on September 08, 2020, 12:52:31 PM

Without making this too political (or else this should move to the P&R Subforum), I'm not sure I'm following your line of logic there. Mass events that are planned beforehand are a stupidly bad idea when you know there's a global pandemic that you help spread by organising a nationwide event. In most other Western countries (and probably the whole world at the moment) mass gatherings are not allowed for that exact reason. People not giving a shit at all and going anyway (the whole event even taking place) and not adhering to any rules whatsoever is at the very least inconsiderate and probably anti-social. Protest are not 'planned' in that same sense, they don't attract people from all over the country to a single spot and they're not the same sort of social gathering that a festival would be.

I don't disagree with you. Sturgis and/or events like it shouldn't be allowed to happen right now. My point is/was there hasn't been much of an effort to attain data on how the many protests that have taken place have helped spread Covid. It doesn't seem like it's a real priority or concern. Like Adami said.....it'd be a difficult ask to attain and track down the people involved but the protests in general seemed to be encouraged despite large gatherings in general being discouraged. While some protests are pop up there are quite a few that are planned in advance as well.....and/or that last days that invite and draw people in from all over the country.

Quote from: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 12:54:06 PM

Also the protests are pretty important and the Sturgis rally isn't important at all. Risk your health and safety to make your voice heard and be part of an important movement, or risk your health and safety to go to the Sturgis rally to possibly eat ass or get your ass eaten?

The level of importance really doesn't matter if they're both claiming 'rights'   I'm not arguing that Sturgis is more important than protests....not at all....but they both use 'rights' as a backbone of why they did/do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 01:07:00 PM

Personally I think the level of importance does matter when the protests are about civil rights and police brutality and the other event is just a festival, but you're right about 'rights', of course.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 01:19:59 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 12:59:08 PM

My point is/was there hasn't been much of an effort to attain data on how the many protests that have taken place have helped spread Covid.

Because there weren't reports of hot spots and contact tracing that lead to the protests being a spreader event.  The data just doesnt show this happened.

I was really curious when those protests started happening, I expected outbreaks but they didn't happen.  I think it just goes to show as more evidence that being outside and wearing masks aren't so dangerous to spreading.  Sturgis was very anti-mask.

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2020/07/06/protests#:~:text=When%20mass%20protests%20erupted%20nationwide,the%20protests%20to%20new%20outbreaks. (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2020/07/06/protests#:~:text=When%20mass%20protests%20erupted%20nationwide,the%20protests%20to%20new%20outbreaks.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 08, 2020, 01:27:50 PM

I think people in authority definitely could have been a bit more involved in saying 'OK, protest, but please wear masks,' and maybe there should have been more of that from the media as well? But to be honest, I think people who blame this on 'media bias' are a bit off base. Sturgis is only a story because of coronavirus and the implications of their gathering, as well as the fact that they seem to be pretty blatant about not giving a fuck (also I don't know that they've received undo media coverage, this thread is the first I'm even hearing about it), but with the protests, the police violence/shootings and the protests themselves are the story. They're actually one of the only things to really break through the constant corona-centric news cycle since this whole thing started, and from a media perspective covering the protests themselves makes more sense than just looking at how it might affect corona.

Also I seem to remember a decent number of protestors were wearing masks? I think some of them were doing it pretty shittily though, like off the nose, so it probably didn't matter that much anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 01:29:01 PM

Sturgis actually gets coverage every year, it's a very big thing

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 08, 2020, 01:31:54 PM

OK, then it may just be me being a complete dingus, which we should never rule out entirely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 01:38:36 PM

Sturgis may not make national headline news every year (although it is a very large event) but this year it was definitely all over the media for a bit, for things like this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/smash-mouth-singer-mocks-coronavirus-pandemic-packed-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-n1236409 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/smash-mouth-singer-mocks-coronavirus-pandemic-packed-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-n1236409)

And this is why I have a hard time comparing Sturgis to protests.  Sturgis was actively against doing the right things to stop/slow the spread. Protesters may not all have worn masks, but many did and I don't recall the protests to be about being anti-mask or anything of that nature.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 08, 2020, 02:29:03 PM

Quote from: Gagler on September 08, 2020, 12:10:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 11:07:24 AM

Sturgis was a huge party essentially, lots of eating and drinking.  Protests are more of a gathering.  So while both are large groups of people, one isn't really socializing for significant period of time without masks. (can't drink a beer with a mask on)

Or eat ass.  I mean, c'mon.

Amateur.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 08, 2020, 02:31:07 PM

Do we know if these protestors get tested, voluntarily? Did the Sturgis people get tested and found out they got it?


There's Twitter video of a BLM protestor drinking a man's glass, while they were peacefully dining.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 08, 2020, 02:43:56 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on September 08, 2020, 12:43:17 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 08, 2020, 12:17:00 PM

  If someone has some stats to show that protests have drove up the number of cases, that could change my opinion but I haven't seen any of that data.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make.....but poorly. I don't think there is a massive effort going on to determine how much Covid is being spread due to these protests. The mass protests and subsequent days/weeks of rioting and unrest seem to be immune to the criticisms that many other entities/individuals etc etc face when it comes to recognizing and implementing the safety features that are recommended for Covid. Sturgis was certainly easy to single out due to the attitude of the participants but the protest movement in general gets a free pass and it's a pretty glaring example of the hypocrisy of the media.

Geez Gary, I hate feeling like I'm jumping on your points, but .... maybe there have been studies, but they (the protests) aren't really making a huge impact on COVID cases.  I mean, a quick Google search produced these from back in June - https://www.newsweek.com/protests-black-lives-matter-covid19-coronavirus-1512501, and https://www.nber.org/papers/w27408.

Quote

Furthermore, we find no evidence that urban protests reignited COVID-19 case or death growth after more than five weeks following the onset of protests.  We conclude that predictions of population-level spikes in COVID-19 cases from Black Lives Matter protests were too narrowly conceived because of failure to account for non-participants’ behavioral responses to large gatherings

There's actually quite a bevy of articles on the matter... Time, NYPost, Forbes.  I suspect the lack of media coverage is because there's nothing to cover or reveal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 03:36:44 PM

Guys, Sturgis still going forward as normal was basically a protest event. They were protesting what they saw as an overreach of government shutting down businesses, events, and forcing the wearing if masks. It was basically a protest in the form of a big party. I really don't see how it was much different than the other protests going on. Just because BLM's cause might be more important to you doesn't make one protest any more or less valid than the other.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 03:41:22 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 03:36:44 PM

Guys, Sturgis still going forward as normal was basically a protest event. They were protesting what they saw as an overreach of government shutting down businesses, events, and forcing the wearing if masks. It was basically a protest in the form of a big party. I really don't see how it was much different than the other protests going on. Just because BLM's cause might be more important to you doesn't make one protest any more or less valid than the other.

Actually, I would argue that the BLM/anti-brutality protests are objectively more important than those reasons you listed for the Sturgis rally. 100%. Because the restrictions were implemented as a means of helping our hospital system, which as we saw was overrun in the spring. These people are saying, 'fuck you, whateva, I do what I want!' which is their only point, they're upset about wearing a mask when they go buy their food at f'ing Wal-Mart which is basically the symbol of everything bad about American capitalism but they have no problem with the way that business operates and treats its employees or the businesses around wherever Wal-Marts pop up oh lord here comes the P/R talk  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 08, 2020, 05:13:05 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

These are the same thing.

And not for nothing, the BLM movement is about the overall treatment of blacks by law enforcement for the entirety of this nation's existence, not just the recent "handful of police shootings".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 07:52:25 PM

Quote from: Chino on September 08, 2020, 05:13:05 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

These are the same thing.

And not for nothing, the BLM movement is about the overall treatment of blacks by law enforcement for the entirety of this nation's existence, not just the recent "handful of police shootings".

I agree with this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 08:01:21 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 07:52:25 PM

Quote from: Chino on September 08, 2020, 05:13:05 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

These are the same thing.

And not for nothing, the BLM movement is about the overall treatment of blacks by law enforcement for the entirety of this nation's existence, not just the recent "handful of police shootings".

I agree with this.

I do too really. I wasn't meaning to belittle the BLM cause, just worded it poorly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 09, 2020, 04:06:13 AM

https://www.insider.com/sturgis-rally-19-percent-new-covid-19-cases-research-2020-9

"The research, from the Center for Health Economics & Policy Studies at San Diego State University, has not yet undergone peer review."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 06:15:36 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 09, 2020, 08:11:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 06:15:36 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Just as you have People not wanting to take anymore shit form the police (Police Brutality), you have People not wanting to take anymore shit from the Government (Laws).

But Sturgis only happened due to the town and state knowing Those people would've came either way. So instead of dealing with them by turning them away, the state caved and let them come in, and did everything to ensure a safe as possible event.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 09:52:37 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 09, 2020, 08:11:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 06:15:36 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Just as you have People not wanting to take anymore shit form the police (Police Brutality), you have People not wanting to take anymore shit from the Government (Laws).

Are you really trying to compare the actions of people not wanting to see people of colour murdered against the actions of people who don't want to minimize the spread of their own germs in the middle of a global pandemic?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 09, 2020, 10:23:20 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 08, 2020, 03:41:22 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 03:36:44 PM

Guys, Sturgis still going forward as normal was basically a protest event. They were protesting what they saw as an overreach of government shutting down businesses, events, and forcing the wearing if masks. It was basically a protest in the form of a big party. I really don't see how it was much different than the other protests going on. Just because BLM's cause might be more important to you doesn't make one protest any more or less valid than the other.

Actually, I would argue that the BLM/anti-brutality protests are objectively more important than those reasons you listed for the Sturgis rally. 100%. Because the restrictions were implemented as a means of helping our hospital system, which as we saw was overrun in the spring. These people are saying, 'fuck you, whateva, I do what I want!' which is their only point, they're upset about wearing a mask when they go buy their food at f'ing Wal-Mart which is basically the symbol of everything bad about American capitalism but they have no problem with the way that business operates and treats its employees or the businesses around wherever Wal-Marts pop up oh lord here comes the P/R talk  :lol

Regardless, it's still a prioritization of competing values/benefits. And any time you do that, it's by it's nature a subjective thing.   It gets mocked a lot, but there's some merit - especially in this burgeoning age of "Trump as fascist" - in the idea of reminding that not everyone believes that government is here to save us from ourselves.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 09, 2020, 10:29:45 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 06:15:36 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Those are of varying degree of "ensuring public health".    But more specifically, there are two components to that:  what if you don't believe it's government's job to "ensure public health", and what if you do and yet find deep hypocrisy in that mission (as I do)?    I can wrap my hands around "ensuring public health", but don't get me started on how badly I believe government ACTUALLY does it.    So much of what passes for "ensuring public health" is a sop to one industry or activist group or another.    No serious efforts to "ensure public health" can be claimed as long as our obesity rate is approaching 50%, as long as our mental health is deteriorating as fast as Paul Stanley's voice, as long as we use/abuse both prescription and illegal drugs at a rate that makes other countries look like rank amateurs, as long as "healthcare reform" is simply "penalize those that don't pony up"...   


(I put "ensuring public health" in quotes because I was going to make another point and I forgot what it was, so...)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 09, 2020, 10:42:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 09:52:37 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 09, 2020, 08:11:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 06:15:36 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Just as you have People not wanting to take anymore shit form the police (Police Brutality), you have People not wanting to take anymore shit from the Government (Laws).

Are you really trying to compare the actions of people not wanting to see people of colour murdered against the actions of people who don't want to minimize the spread of their own germs in the middle of a global pandemic?

That's not really our call to make.  He can and should prioritize those as he sees fit.  I know my prioritization doesn't exactly jibe with that of the narrative.   I certainly think that we have to restructure the law enforcement system in such a way that we can minimize the number of those that die at the hands of a police officer (it will never be zero, because not all the deaths are unreasonable), and we should be working to eliminate any racial disparity from that equation.  But having said that, I don't believe in "by any means necessary", and I do think that some of the BLM protests are out of proportion to the root problem.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on September 09, 2020, 02:54:05 PM

I know this is a Kerona thread but I have to say one one thing about the BLM movement:

It's not just about racial injustice. It's not just about police brutality. It's not just about statistics about who gets killed by whom and how. It's mostly about police killing and murdering with impunity.

How many times have we seen the blue protect their own and claim innocence, even when we see the video for ourselves?
They get off scott free. That's the issue and the only thing you need to ask yourselves is if this happened to you, would you just stand there and take it?  :huh:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 03:06:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 09, 2020, 10:29:45 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 06:15:36 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Those are of varying degree of "ensuring public health".    But more specifically, there are two components to that:  what if you don't believe it's government's job to "ensure public health", and what if you do and yet find deep hypocrisy in that mission (as I do)?    I can wrap my hands around "ensuring public health", but don't get me started on how badly I believe government ACTUALLY does it.    So much of what passes for "ensuring public health" is a sop to one industry or activist group or another.    No serious efforts to "ensure public health" can be claimed as long as our obesity rate is approaching 50%, as long as our mental health is deteriorating as fast as Paul Stanley's voice, as long as we use/abuse both prescription and illegal drugs at a rate that makes other countries look like rank amateurs, as long as "healthcare reform" is simply "penalize those that don't pony up"...   

All valid points, and I don't disagree with you at all.  The flaw however is that, while you are right on every point above, all of those issues only affect the health of the individual.  Mental illness and drug abuse can have indirect impacts on society, but those matters don't directly affect the health of other people.  To that end, my example of seatbelts isn't the greatest.  But the government 'over-reach' about masks is within their scope the same way they should ensure restaurants refrigerate their food and have running water to clean dishes.  Aspects that effect others' health are within the gub'ts responsibility, no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 10, 2020, 07:53:05 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

Not always.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 07:56:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 03:06:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 09, 2020, 10:29:45 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 09, 2020, 06:15:36 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 08, 2020, 04:07:57 PM

Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Those are of varying degree of "ensuring public health".    But more specifically, there are two components to that:  what if you don't believe it's government's job to "ensure public health", and what if you do and yet find deep hypocrisy in that mission (as I do)?    I can wrap my hands around "ensuring public health", but don't get me started on how badly I believe government ACTUALLY does it.    So much of what passes for "ensuring public health" is a sop to one industry or activist group or another.    No serious efforts to "ensure public health" can be claimed as long as our obesity rate is approaching 50%, as long as our mental health is deteriorating as fast as Paul Stanley's voice, as long as we use/abuse both prescription and illegal drugs at a rate that makes other countries look like rank amateurs, as long as "healthcare reform" is simply "penalize those that don't pony up"...   

All valid points, and I don't disagree with you at all.  The flaw however is that, while you are right on every point above, all of those issues only affect the health of the individual.  Mental illness and drug abuse can have indirect impacts on society, but those matters don't directly affect the health of other people.  To that end, my example of seatbelts isn't the greatest.  But the government 'over-reach' about masks is within their scope the same way they should ensure restaurants refrigerate their food and have running water to clean dishes.  Aspects that effect others' health are within the gub'ts responsibility, no?

It's another discussion for another thread, I suppose, but I don't hold this "individual" versus "group" harm difference to be sacred.  I understand this is not the common view (and it's a big part of the reason that some of my points of view seem out of whack with the zeitgeist), but I think all these things are interrelated, and I think - in America circa 2020 - we do a shit job of addressing these things on that level.   "Shooting?  Ban guns, done and dusted.  Let's move on."   It doesn't work that way.   I think the increasing levels of some of the things I listed DO have impacts. They DO affect the health of other people.   Whether it's healthcare reform or in the way the systems we rely on have to be compromised in order to address them, or the way that we have to assimilate these issues into our society.

Sorry, off tangent, here. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 08:51:36 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I am not saying it isn't/can't be, I am saying the context of a massive annual festival where people have fun is very different than a movement with the sole focus of protesting. And I am saying I sincerely doubt most people where there as a form of structural protest against government regulations, or at least that being the primary reason.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 10:32:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

Of course. But it is considered a form of protest if you are civil. It's Civil Disobedience. I don't really agree with it either, I was just bringing it up, because people do use that excuse, as some of these Sturgis people likely did.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 10:35:48 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

We are still awaiting the federal to at least Decriminalize it. That's where a lot of the issues are. If you Decriminalize it, you stop the jail sentences, you stop some of the unnecessary discrimination against PoC from the police.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 11:26:52 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

Weed is the best example of this, for the very reasons you noted.  Laws aren't for convenience.  They are there for a reason, good or bad, out of date or relevant.   If we don't like them, change them.  But they are still the law.  I chose weed, because we can all sort of get our arms around that idea of "Yeah, that makes sense; it's harmless, let's do it and, um, PROTEST!".   It's less of a polarizing issue; not wearing masks is a shitty form of protest, because it's too easily dismissed as "fucking stupid".  I think - and I may be the minority on this - that the protests in the streets on BLM are the same; they are too easily dismissed as "mindless violence". 

"Protests" are only good if the entity that can do something about it is listening and reacts appropriately.  Part of that is protesting in a way that also gives the acting party something to consider and a means to change the status quo.   America is fucked post-social media, because we've been ingrained with this notion that if shame and embarass people enough, they will do our bidding.   That completely ignores that the underlying reasons are the wrong ones, and the effected changes are likely lip service and won't result in lasting, meaningful changes in behavior (does any of this ring a bell?)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 12:08:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 11:26:52 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

Weed is the best example of this, for the very reasons you noted.  Laws aren't for convenience.  They are there for a reason, good or bad, out of date or relevant.   If we don't like them, change them.  But they are still the law.  I chose weed, because we can all sort of get our arms around that idea of "Yeah, that makes sense; it's harmless, let's do it and, um, PROTEST!".   It's less of a polarizing issue; not wearing masks is a shitty form of protest, because it's too easily dismissed as "fucking stupid".  I think - and I may be the minority on this - that the protests in the streets on BLM are the same; they are too easily dismissed as "mindless violence". 

"Protests" are only good if the entity that can do something about it is listening and reacts appropriately.  Part of that is protesting in a way that also gives the acting party something to consider and a means to change the status quo.   America is fucked post-social media, because we've been ingrained with this notion that if shame and embarass people enough, they will do our bidding.   That completely ignores that the underlying reasons are the wrong ones, and the effected changes are likely lip service and won't result in lasting, meaningful changes in behavior (does any of this ring a bell?)

I believe there have been many efforts to try to get lawmakers to at least change weed's status from a level 1 substance to something... lesser. But politicians won't do anything about it, saying they 'need more studies.' But they can't get studies done because it's a level 1 substance, considered on the same level as something like heroin and meth. So you think people should just give up and deal with that, and wait to elect people in for a formality, even though states are legally selling it now? I don't get it, especially when you bring up social media which came long after the demonization and fear mongering the politicians did with weed. It was literally only made illegal to further incarcerate black people and hippies by the Nixon administration.

So what do you do when laws get wrongly put into place, and politicians spend decades not doing anything about it despite hearing an uproar from people that's only gotten louder and louder each year, to the point where now a bunch of our states are selling it legally and using that tax revenue for good, and yet it's still federally on the same level as meth? Just sit on our hands and wait for lawmakers to pull their heads out of their asses because 'that's the way it should be'? Nah, dude. Not everything is equal or just here. Look at people who are still serving life sentences for selling a little weed even if their state has made it legal. It's crazy.

I'm not saying this applies to, like, wielding a firearm, but in this case, fuck the federal law, protest/push back on it, if lawmakers won't do it, the people will eventually take it upon themselves. Good luck trying to incarcerate everybody who smokes weed now, it's like drinking, innumerable people partake every day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 12:39:46 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 12:08:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 11:26:52 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 10, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 10, 2020, 06:58:48 AM

For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

Weed is the best example of this, for the very reasons you noted.  Laws aren't for convenience.  They are there for a reason, good or bad, out of date or relevant.   If we don't like them, change them.  But they are still the law.  I chose weed, because we can all sort of get our arms around that idea of "Yeah, that makes sense; it's harmless, let's do it and, um, PROTEST!".   It's less of a polarizing issue; not wearing masks is a shitty form of protest, because it's too easily dismissed as "fucking stupid".  I think - and I may be the minority on this - that the protests in the streets on BLM are the same; they are too easily dismissed as "mindless violence". 

"Protests" are only good if the entity that can do something about it is listening and reacts appropriately.  Part of that is protesting in a way that also gives the acting party something to consider and a means to change the status quo.   America is fucked post-social media, because we've been ingrained with this notion that if shame and embarass people enough, they will do our bidding.   That completely ignores that the underlying reasons are the wrong ones, and the effected changes are likely lip service and won't result in lasting, meaningful changes in behavior (does any of this ring a bell?)

I believe there have been many efforts to try to get lawmakers to at least change weed's status from a level 1 substance to something... lesser. But politicians won't do anything about it, saying they 'need more studies.' But they can't get studies done because it's a level 1 substance, considered on the same level as something like heroin and meth. So you think people should just give up and deal with that, and wait to elect people in for a formality, even though states are legally selling it now? I don't get it, especially when you bring up social media which came long after the demonization and fear mongering the politicians did with weed. It was literally only made illegal to further incarcerate black people and hippies by the Nixon administration.

So what do you do when laws get wrongly put into place, and politicians spend decades not doing anything about it despite hearing an uproar from people that's only gotten louder and louder each year, to the point where now a bunch of our states are selling it legally and using that tax revenue for good, and yet it's still federally on the same level as meth? Just sit on our hands and wait for lawmakers to pull their heads out of their asses because 'that's the way it should be'? Nah, dude. Not everything is equal or just here. Look at people who are still serving life sentences for selling a little weed even if their state has made it legal. It's crazy.

I'm not saying this applies to, like, wielding a firearm, but in this case, fuck the federal law, protest/push back on it, if lawmakers won't do it, the people will eventually take it upon themselves. Good luck trying to incarcerate everybody who smokes weed now, it's like drinking, innumerable people partake every day.

No, no.  I'm not saying any of that.  One still has to lobby for change for it to happen; it's not going to change by itself.  I'm just saying that saying "Fuck it, I'm just smoking it" and bitching about the consequences isn't a protest.  :) 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 10, 2020, 12:44:48 PM

" I'm just saying that saying "Fuck it, I'm just smoking it" and bitching about the consequences isn't a protest.  :) "

Yeah, in this case, I'm 100% disagreeing with that for the reasons I just laid out. It's definitely a protest, if one can argue why. Not just because they're lighting up in front of an officer just because they saw someone else do it, but because they have historical facts under their belt and a good reason why it is silly to wait for septuagenarian career politicians to die so someone else can get in and maybe move the needle a fraction of an inch towards something reasonable. We're talking generations of waiting for 'something to be done' about it the right way. Our government runs slow as molasses. It's inefficient, unhelpful, and causes more problems than it tends to solve. You can't tell an entire generation of people that they can't protest the consequences of outdated and frankly illogical laws when they're already doing it. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

The law has to make sense in order for 'bitching about the consequences isn't a protest' to make sense.

... P/R? What's that?  :biggrin:  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on September 12, 2020, 09:27:09 AM

Good job Canada...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-idCAKBN26301J

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 13, 2020, 06:09:51 AM

Quote from: T-ski on September 12, 2020, 09:27:09 AM

Good job Canada...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-idCAKBN26301J

In the famous words of Winston Wolff... let's not start suckin each others' dicks just yet.

Case counts in more than a few Provinces have been rising over the past week.  Ontario just had 3 straight days over 200 for the first time in a couple of months.  In absolute terms, that's pretty low in a Province with a population of 13M (ish), and the majority of those counts are from Toronto and the region immediately to the northwest of it (where I used to live), but it's a trend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 15, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

We're down to only 6 positive patients! I'm rejoicing. It's been a brutal 6 months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on September 15, 2020, 10:33:06 AM

There is a university in my county and since classes have resumed, our counts are skyrocketing. Worse then anytime during the pandemic. The majority of the positive cases are people 30 and under. This was even before college came back. Now those numbers are higher. Our youth are not the brightest. This has put us on the warning list for the state for the first time as well.

Then I see that anti-mask rally in Oregon or wherever that was. We deserve everything we get.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 15, 2020, 11:30:32 AM

All public universities here in North Carolina went back to class in person.

Within a week, almost all had switched back to online-only.  Not sure what they were expecting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 15, 2020, 11:36:00 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on September 15, 2020, 11:30:32 AM

All public universities here in North Carolina went back to class in person.

Within a week, almost all had switched back to online-only.  Not sure what they were expecting.

They trusted the president, rather than scientists, every time (13 in the link below) he said the "problem will go away":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8yOv4PwttM

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 15, 2020, 11:37:04 AM

Parent in my state is suing a school for the mask requirement.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/tennessee-mom-sues-mask-mandate-school/51-0f3fddf3-f893-4b2a-ad53-8ee1c8ff6f36

Quote

“Yes, people have said, 'why aren’t you protecting other people?' And I said I am protecting people. I am protecting so many people. I’m protecting your rights,” Murchison said.

 :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 15, 2020, 11:40:38 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 15, 2020, 11:37:04 AM

Parent in my state is suing a school for the mask requirement.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/tennessee-mom-sues-mask-mandate-school/51-0f3fddf3-f893-4b2a-ad53-8ee1c8ff6f36

Quote

“Yes, people have said, 'why aren’t you protecting other people?' And I said I am protecting people. I am protecting so many people. I’m protecting your rights,” Murchison said.

 :facepalm:

Unreal.

““He can’t concentrate and doesn’t like it,” said Heather Murchison, Sanfilippo’s mother.

So when Sanfilippo showed up for school, Murchison said he was placed in in-school suspension.

Murchison said she tried to get a doctor’s note, citing her son’s anxiety, but said she spoke with six physicians who said they wouldn’t provide the note for political reasons.”

If I have a son who can't focus when he's wearing pants because of anxiety, can I sue when he can't go to school hanging brain?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on September 15, 2020, 11:42:50 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on September 15, 2020, 11:30:32 AM

All public universities here in North Carolina went back to class in person.

Within a week, almost all had switched back to online-only.  Not sure what they were expecting.

A batch of kids I know all went to a school in Florida, and they had an outbreak there as well.  The school expected that, but took what precautions they could, with the understanding and hope that, although they could not prevent, they could mitigate.  They have quarantined the kids who got it, and any they have come into contact with, and have been pretty consistent in their protocols.  So they are still moving forward and do not seem to be overly concerned. 

And that is in line with what we were originally told about "flattening the curve"--we were flattening it to give healthcare facilities time to ramp up and put systems into place to deal with it and not get overwhelmed, not eliminate the curve, which many believe to not be possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 15, 2020, 11:44:13 AM

Quote from: Chino on September 15, 2020, 11:40:38 AM

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 15, 2020, 11:37:04 AM

Parent in my state is suing a school for the mask requirement.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/tennessee-mom-sues-mask-mandate-school/51-0f3fddf3-f893-4b2a-ad53-8ee1c8ff6f36

Quote

“Yes, people have said, 'why aren’t you protecting other people?' And I said I am protecting people. I am protecting so many people. I’m protecting your rights,” Murchison said.

 :facepalm:

Unreal.

““He can’t concentrate and doesn’t like it,” said Heather Murchison, Sanfilippo’s mother.

So when Sanfilippo showed up for school, Murchison said he was placed in in-school suspension.

Murchison said she tried to get a doctor’s note, citing her son’s anxiety, but said she spoke with six physicians who said they wouldn’t provide the note for political reasons.”

If I have a son who can't focus when he's wearing pants because of anxiety, can I sue when he can't go to school hanging brain?

Yeah, people bring up that you're required to make accommodations for health issues, but they always neglect to note that they're required to make reasonable accommodations. Not wearing a mask amidst a pandemic doesn't seem reasonable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:10:56 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome and I can't imagine they actually do a good job at keeping out particles since there's a huge open area right there. You're not using an angle grinder, you're going to the store.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:12:07 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:10:56 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome

So's your beard!  :neverusethis:

Seriously though, your point?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:12:55 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:12:07 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:10:56 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome

So's your beard!  :neverusethis:

Seriously though, your point?

My point is that it doesn't really mean anything to compare the two and act like those people have a responsibility to then use face shields. Face shields will protect you from respiratory particles LESS than a mask will unless you turn into Ant Man and are dodging them like bullets

also thanks gonna shave the beard now :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 15, 2020, 12:14:40 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

I work in a grocery store's kitchen on the weekends and rarely have to interact with customers not over the phone. We had a woman come in a few months ago claiming the anxiety thing. She went on and on about how she's taking three new medications related to anxiety being induced by the sight of others wearing masks, as well as the breathing problems they cause when she's forced to wear one. We offered to shop for her and bring the stuff to her car (waving the associated shopper and delivery fees), and she refused. We offered her a NIP face shield (not ideal, but better than nothing) so she could breath, and she said she couldn't because the curved surface of the shield and the fluorescent lights would trigger debilitating migraines. We then called the cops.

I don't care what anyone says. That woman was full of shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:25:51 PM

Quote from: Chino on September 15, 2020, 12:14:40 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

I work in a grocery store's kitchen on the weekends and rarely have to interact with customers not over the phone. We had a woman come in a few months ago claiming the anxiety thing. She went on and on about how she's taking three new medications related to anxiety being induced by the sight of others wearing masks, as well as the breathing problems they cause when she's forced to wear one. We offered to shop for her and bring the stuff to her car (waving the associated shopper and delivery fees), and she refused. We offered her a NIP face shield (not ideal, but better than nothing) so she could breath, and she said she couldn't because the curved surface of the shield and the fluorescent lights would trigger debilitating migraines. We then called the cops.

I don't care what anyone says. That woman was full of shit.

I'm pretty sure that the majority of people who say THEY have a health reason for not wearing a mask are full of shit.  If the health issue was legit, and they still cared about public health, they would be willing to wear a shield for the bolded reason above.  To Chino's example, it's hard to believe it wasn't an ideological stand about "freedoms" and "Constitutional Rights"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:37:10 PM

Haha... so we have 4 elementary schools in this small town, 1 middle school, and 1 high school. Every other day now I have seen letters from all of them saying that one or two kids from the schools have been diagnosed with COVID, and some staff too. So they're doing half-days at school two days a week, where half the students attend school. Then they have 2 days from home. But if a teacher has COVID, their classes have to be remote for 14 days. So then kids attending school... still have to do remote learning? How are students getting ANYTHING meaningful accomplished when things are constantly being changed around? I am amused/fascinated by all of this. Hell even the marchind band kids have to have masks which makes me want to double over laughing. Good luck, fellow flute players.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on September 15, 2020, 12:38:17 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:12:55 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:12:07 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:10:56 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM

For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome

So's your beard!  :neverusethis:

Seriously though, your point?

My point is that it doesn't really mean anything to compare the two and act like those people have a responsibility to then use face shields. Face shields will protect you from respiratory particles LESS than a mask will unless you turn into Ant Man and are dodging them like bullets

also thanks gonna shave the beard now :neverusethis:

Unless I am misunderstanding your point, that isn't accurate.  Neither fabric/paper masks nor face shields protect the wearer, at least, not appreciably.  They help protect others from infection by the wearer by catching a great deal of exhaled particles and/or deflecting them downward to they do not hang in the air long enough to be inhaled by others.

N95 masks (and others with the right types of filters) are the opposite and protect the wearer in a contaminated environment. 

So, yes, shields are generally understood to be a viable alternative to the typical fabric/paper mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

What I'm saying is that the mask actually covers your face. Does it stop everything? No. The face shield has a gigantic open area for any particles to sweep up into. There's nothing directly blocking the airway, so just because you shield the particles from the front of your face... doesn't mean they won't slip up under them. At least with masks you can tighten them around your face and it's directly in front of the airway *and* it will directly mitigate the amount of particles spread. Face shield has nothing blocking it, therefore less protection than a facial covering.

(also I never said they weren't understood to be a viable alternative I'm arguing my view on their effectiveness relative to wearing something right over yer mouf)

I have and use N95s so it doesn't really matter to me, just playing devil's advocate against Chad's point, but I personally would never wear a face shield because they're large, look silly and, like I said, I feel like they offer *less* protection than a mask. Also the face shield could probably fog up or something gross idk

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on September 15, 2020, 12:58:53 PM

........and we just got notified of a positive case at my son's high school. I'm actually surprised that it took this long. Still, under a month to get there. No one in this area bothers to wear a mask. Well, except for my family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 15, 2020, 12:59:35 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

Also the face shield could probably fog up or something gross idk

See Andy Reid  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on September 15, 2020, 01:11:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 15, 2020, 12:59:35 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

Also the face shield could probably fog up or something gross idk

See Andy Reid  :lol

(https://www.bardown.com/polopoly_fs/1.1523557!/fileimage/httpImage/image.jpeg_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/andy-reid.jpeg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 15, 2020, 01:14:57 PM

He looks like Iron Man. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 04:15:11 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

What I'm saying is that the mask actually covers your face. Does it stop everything? No. The face shield has a gigantic open area for any particles to sweep up into.

You aren't entirely wrong, but generally speaking, gravity eventually pulls things down.  I'm not trying to be facetious, but as I said earlier, the face shield is better than nothing - for both the wearer, and for others around.  Respiratory droplets exhaled by the wearer won't get as far as they would without it; most droplets from others will slam right into the shield like Wiley Coyote into the side of a mountain.

Yes, there's a risk some will slip past the goalie, but in that analogy, it's far easier to score into an empty net, than with someone (thing) blocking your way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 15, 2020, 04:53:17 PM

I had a vendor come in to work on a server yesterday, lets just say a large and older dude.  Guy seemed to not be able to wear his mask or wear it properly.  Either his nose was out or it was just off.  Had to tell him to put it on fully.  So ridiculous that you need to tell someone this when they come into your place of work and there's signs EVERYWHERE.  His excuse was he can't breathe and I literally heard him huffing and puffing likely becasue he is very overweight so just walking was enough to make him struggle breathing.  I'd say, it's better to just wear the face shield at that point.  But also, maybe, just maybe, it's time to look in the mirror and lose a few pounds so you can breathe fine even without a mask?  I really think this is why the US numbers are so high, we are such an unhealthy group of people here and that includes myself but at least I'm working on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 05:10:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 04:15:11 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

What I'm saying is that the mask actually covers your face. Does it stop everything? No. The face shield has a gigantic open area for any particles to sweep up into.

You aren't entirely wrong, but generally speaking, gravity eventually pulls things down.  I'm not trying to be facetious, but as I said earlier, the face shield is better than nothing - for both the wearer, and for others around.  Respiratory droplets exhaled by the wearer won't get as far as they would without it; most droplets from others will slam right into the shield like Wiley Coyote into the side of a mountain.

Yes, there's a risk some will slip past the goalie, but in that analogy, it's far easier to score into an empty net, than with someone (thing) blocking your way.

And then you touch those germs on that gigantic windshield in front of you. A genius device!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on September 15, 2020, 08:02:17 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 05:10:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 04:15:11 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

What I'm saying is that the mask actually covers your face. Does it stop everything? No. The face shield has a gigantic open area for any particles to sweep up into.

You aren't entirely wrong, but generally speaking, gravity eventually pulls things down.  I'm not trying to be facetious, but as I said earlier, the face shield is better than nothing - for both the wearer, and for others around.  Respiratory droplets exhaled by the wearer won't get as far as they would without it; most droplets from others will slam right into the shield like Wiley Coyote into the side of a mountain.

Yes, there's a risk some will slip past the goalie, but in that analogy, it's far easier to score into an empty net, than with someone (thing) blocking your way.

And then you touch those germs on that gigantic windshield in front of you. A genius device!

but that's the same for the facemask, you're not supposed to touch it but that mask discipline is hard and I never do it perfectly either.

My understanding is that for facemasks to be as effective as can be, you're supposed to wash your hands before AND after putting it on at home before you leave.  Leave it on and never touch it while you're out and about and then wash your hands when you remove it, probably before and after as well.   If it's a reusuable cloth mask I bet you should wash it after every use too.

I never do any of that, I leave it in my car, put in on before going in somewhere and take it off when I get back in.   I don't switch them out and wash them very often.   I suppose in the end it's still better than not wearing it because if I'm infected and I don't know it then I'm not spreading as far as I would if I didn't have it on.

edit: to be clear I'm not saying you're not aware of this, I'm just musing on the subject.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 15, 2020, 08:05:53 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 15, 2020, 04:53:17 PM

I had a vendor come in to work on a server yesterday, lets just say a large and older dude.  Guy seemed to not be able to wear his mask or wear it properly.  Either his nose was out or it was just off.  Had to tell him to put it on fully.  So ridiculous that you need to tell someone this when they come into your place of work and there's signs EVERYWHERE.  His excuse was he can't breathe and I literally heard him huffing and puffing likely becasue he is very overweight so just walking was enough to make him struggle breathing.  I'd say, it's better to just wear the face shield at that point.  But also, maybe, just maybe, it's time to look in the mirror and lose a few pounds so you can breathe fine even without a mask?  I really think this is why the US numbers are so high, we are such an unhealthy group of people here and that includes myself but at least I'm working on it.

The US health is really really bad. There are people though that are finally realizing what it is that is causing their health deficiency and are finding out all they needed was a simple change of their diets.

I read an interesting article about the start of processed foods and why they began making them in the first place. I can't find it now but this is a nice simple list that indicates when our food became unhealthy.

https://modernpioneermom.com/2012/07/05/processed-foods-history-1910s-to-1950s/

But, It would be wise to be considering changing your health if you're as bad as that guy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on September 15, 2020, 11:11:21 PM

SOUTH PARK PANDEMIC SPECIAL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6bEaBeOVkg

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 16, 2020, 03:32:59 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 15, 2020, 04:53:17 PM

I had a vendor come in to work on a server yesterday, lets just say a large and older dude.  Guy seemed to not be able to wear his mask or wear it properly.  Either his nose was out or it was just off.  Had to tell him to put it on fully.  So ridiculous that you need to tell someone this when they come into your place of work and there's signs EVERYWHERE.  His excuse was he can't breathe and I literally heard him huffing and puffing likely becasue he is very overweight so just walking was enough to make him struggle breathing.  I'd say, it's better to just wear the face shield at that point.  But also, maybe, just maybe, it's time to look in the mirror and lose a few pounds so you can breathe fine even without a mask?  I really think this is why the US numbers are so high, we are such an unhealthy group of people here and that includes myself but at least I'm working on it.

The reality is, the 'can't breathe' is just a mental thing.  I've seen far too many examples (anecdotal, but  I'm sure there are studies on this) that a mask doesn't actually impact the ability to bring oxygen into the body.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 16, 2020, 03:42:32 AM

It surely is mildly annoying, especially to me since I wear glasses and they always go "foggy", but I don't see the need to be a huge crybaby about it given what's at stake. I suck it up and wear it, I can live with the mild annoyance of foggy glasses if that means I don't potentially infect someone who infects his elder grandma and kills her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Spiritus on September 16, 2020, 04:06:03 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 05:10:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 15, 2020, 04:15:11 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

What I'm saying is that the mask actually covers your face. Does it stop everything? No. The face shield has a gigantic open area for any particles to sweep up into.

You aren't entirely wrong, but generally speaking, gravity eventually pulls things down.  I'm not trying to be facetious, but as I said earlier, the face shield is better than nothing - for both the wearer, and for others around.  Respiratory droplets exhaled by the wearer won't get as far as they would without it; most droplets from others will slam right into the shield like Wiley Coyote into the side of a mountain.

Yes, there's a risk some will slip past the goalie, but in that analogy, it's far easier to score into an empty net, than with someone (thing) blocking your way.

And then you touch those germs on that gigantic windshield in front of you. A genius device!

And no one touches their masks?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 16, 2020, 05:51:49 AM

Nope. Never. Clearly that is the takeaway from that post. Rolleyes.gif

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 16, 2020, 05:54:18 AM

So it sounds like the best protection is a mask under the face shield. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 16, 2020, 06:34:23 AM

With all the stress on masks, I saw virtually no attention placed on something equally important: STAYING FAR WAY.

Ok, this is not always possible, it's needless to say it. Call me immensely precautious to the point of paranoia, but I've spent two weeks in holiday, first in the mountains and then at the sea, and I'll be damned if I found someone, ANYBODY who would steer clear of me when I was approaching, I was always, ALWAYS the one taking the extra two steps on the side or stopping before a bottleneck passage to not be close to people.

As I said, I might be too much on the safe side of things, and it's not that 1.5 seconds nearby someone who isn't talking will give you the virus, but better safe than sorry. I make a point to never come close to anyone and I'll be damned if people care for it. I mean, I was standing in a SQUARE, and a couple passed very near me!!! you have the whole square for yourself, why the hell do you come so close to me?

Again, I know I might be exagerating in avoiding EVERYONE, ALL THE TIME, and I know just being two seconds nearby someone who isn't even talking isn't gonna kill you, but really, people, they asked you two things, wear a mask and avoid people if possible, maybe don't turn on the mysanthropy mode up to 11 but at the very least be mindful of passing very close to someone....?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 16, 2020, 07:14:21 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on September 16, 2020, 06:34:23 AM

With all the stress on masks, I saw virtually no attention placed on something equally important: STAYING FAR WAY.

Ok, this is not always possible, it's needless to say it. Call me immensely precautious to the point of paranoia, but I've spent two weeks in holiday, first in the mountains and then at the sea, and I'll be damned if I found someone, ANYBODY who would steer clear of me when I was approaching, I was always, ALWAYS the one taking the extra two steps on the side or stopping before a bottleneck passage to not be close to people.

As I said, I might be too much on the safe side of things, and it's not that 1.5 seconds nearby someone who isn't talking will give you the virus, but better safe than sorry. I make a point to never come close to anyone and I'll be damned if people care for it. I mean, I was standing in a SQUARE, and a couple passed very near me!!! you have the whole square for yourself, why the hell do you come so close to me?

Again, I know I might be exagerating in avoiding EVERYONE, ALL THE TIME, and I know just being two seconds nearby someone who isn't even talking isn't gonna kill you, but really, people, they asked you two things, wear a mask and avoid people if possible, maybe don't turn on the mysanthropy mode up to 11 but at the very least be mindful of passing very close to someone....?

Aw man, I was having fun.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on September 16, 2020, 07:17:34 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 15, 2020, 08:05:53 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 15, 2020, 04:53:17 PM

I had a vendor come in to work on a server yesterday, lets just say a large and older dude.  Guy seemed to not be able to wear his mask or wear it properly.  Either his nose was out or it was just off.  Had to tell him to put it on fully.  So ridiculous that you need to tell someone this when they come into your place of work and there's signs EVERYWHERE.  His excuse was he can't breathe and I literally heard him huffing and puffing likely becasue he is very overweight so just walking was enough to make him struggle breathing.  I'd say, it's better to just wear the face shield at that point.  But also, maybe, just maybe, it's time to look in the mirror and lose a few pounds so you can breathe fine even without a mask?  I really think this is why the US numbers are so high, we are such an unhealthy group of people here and that includes myself but at least I'm working on it.

The US health is really really bad. There are people though that are finally realizing what it is that is causing their health deficiency and are finding out all they needed was a simple change of their diets.

I read an interesting article about the start of processed foods and why they began making them in the first place. I can't find it now but this is a nice simple list that indicates when our food became unhealthy.

https://modernpioneermom.com/2012/07/05/processed-foods-history-1910s-to-1950s/

But, It would be wise to be considering changing your health if you're as bad as that guy.

You are exactly correct! This is why "clean" eating has become so popular. It's understanding what goes in the processed food you are buying or even the plastic tub you heat your food up and eat from the same plastic tub.

IMO one of the biggest crimes of the last century when the sugar industry paid off scientists to blame fat for all that is evil. It's too bad that the pandemic hit because it makes it a little more difficult to eat clean. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat
 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 16, 2020, 07:17:58 AM

I, for one, wear my mask on my fly hole while I return the carts to corral 6 feet apart from one another.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on September 16, 2020, 07:22:21 AM

you won the internets   :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 16, 2020, 07:36:52 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 16, 2020, 07:17:58 AM

I, for one, wear my mask on my fly hole while I return the carts to corral 6 feet apart from one another.

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1196.gif&hash=980505f48b8127d4d387299ac6d781103d1709a6)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 16, 2020, 07:38:00 AM

This may be better in another thread or in the P/R section, but the COVID-19 event has been a fascinating look at human psychology, and has really bolstered a lot of my ideas about society and the way our country (I can only speak of the U.S. here, since for obvious reasons I haven't been overseas in quite a while).   

I've become fiercely bipartisan (or a-partisan, if you will).  I am increasingly convinced that both "sides" in America are virtually interchangeable in terms of the human dynamics, we're just pointed in the opposite direction.  There is fierce advocacy to the points we agree with, and derision and even hate for those we don't.   Neither the right nor the left has any monopoly on these feelings, good or bad. 

One of the more universal truths I've started to see is how often it's the OTHER guy that has to adapt, adjust, and modify, but we seem to forget that FOR THEM, WE'RE the other guy.   I get it, the obvious answer is "but I'm right.   I have science/morals/common sense/an election win on my side!"; but I think we fail account for the ability of the other side, on almost any issue, to rationalize that the same or similar way.   We ALL, to a degree (and based on our prioritization of issues), presumably believe we're right to an extent.

I'm even more adamant about something I've said for years:  tend your own garden.  Make sure YOUR mask is solid, make sure YOU are distanced, and be ready willing and able to remove yourself from situations where YOUR space is encroached.  I remember not long ago that "you're fat!" was an epithet, and even when tied to things like exploding healthcare costs (CLEARLY a public issue) it was frowned on, but now that we're talking about masks, "you're fat!" is, what, science?   Truth?  Why wasn't it truth before when it was used AGAINST the platform you espoused?   

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being critical of any one person here, or any particular position.  For all I know, everyone here was saying "you're fat!" back when the ACA was being debated.   It's only an example.   (I happen to agree with those that say "too bad, so sad" to those that claim to not be able to wear a mask; if that's the case, remove yourself from the situation, don't make the entire group have to pay or compromise for your individuality.)   But I think it's probably a helpful exercise for all of us to sort of take a moment and ask how consistent we really are, and how much we're contributing to the dialogue or the dissension, and what does our position - and how we got there - really mean to the society as a whole, and the betterment of us as a group. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 16, 2020, 09:07:03 AM

Well said Stads. I agree with much, but not all of it. One area I disagree is when the “other” side (for me) is basing decisions and actions that can (whether directly or indirectly) impact me on their own personal feelings, as opposed to facts.  Whether COVID, climate, economy, whatever. My stance is that decision making should be based on fact and evidence - particularly by those in positions of powers ... whose decisions have a great macro impact.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 16, 2020, 09:50:00 AM

I would add to Stadlef's post...a couple more observations.

- We are amazingly adaptable beings.

- The overriding political/philosophical state of our country is: Opposition at any cost. Eventually this will be our downfall.

-Many people say we live in a post-truth era. In my view, this misses the mark. I'd say we have entered the multiple truth era, where, bolstered by technological manipulation of reality (deep fake videos for instance), dishonest and deceptive media, and a general uninformed populous, multiple people can observe a given incident, and every single one of them will observe their version of the truth. Unfortunately,  this exacerbates the opposition at all costs philosophy. Why concede or negotiate when you are 100% certain that your truth is the only truth?

p.s., sorry if this should be in the P/R area. It's just that Covid brought much of this to light.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 16, 2020, 10:14:56 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 16, 2020, 07:17:58 AM

I, for one, wear my mask on my fly hole while I return the carts to corral 6 feet apart from one another.

Are you singing Friday while doing it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on September 16, 2020, 11:19:42 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 16, 2020, 10:14:56 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 16, 2020, 07:17:58 AM

I, for one, wear my mask on my fly hole while I return the carts to corral 6 feet apart from one another.

Are you singing Friday while doing it?

I do.  But only on Tuesdays.  I am counterculture like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on September 16, 2020, 11:49:46 AM

I got hired for our version of the CDC for a function (part-time, voluntary) that basically amounts to interviewing corona patients and logging their data (for research/statistics), nationwide. I was approached/selected due to my background (work experience, degree) and decided to do it. Obviously I won't post anything about my activities, because everything I do will be strictly confidential and data will only be used in professional/official capacity. Not a career change or anything, it is in addition to my actual daytime job, about 8 hours a week for only three months. I soon will start the training procedure. I usually do voluntary work for the Red Cross, but because there are no events in my area for the rest of the year, I decided to dedicate my time to something else. That and some of my hobbies are also non-existent now, giving me a lot of extra free time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 16, 2020, 11:58:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 16, 2020, 09:07:03 AM

Well said Stads. I agree with much, but not all of it. One area I disagree is when the “other” side (for me) is basing decisions and actions that can (whether directly or indirectly) impact me on their own personal feelings, as opposed to facts.  Whether COVID, climate, economy, whatever. My stance is that decision making should be based on fact and evidence - particularly by those in positions of powers ... whose decisions have a great macro impact.

But bear with:  there's no monopoly on that.  For EVERY issue that a Liberal/Democrat can say "but...  they're basing their decisions on their own personal feelings, as opposed to facts!", I can show you an issue where a Conservative/Republican can say the exact same thing.  And the point is, BOTH sides in BOTH cases can rationalize their side.  So who decides?  There's no Ed Hocule to come in and throw a flag.  It all comes down to personal prioritization of issues.   I took a lot from that discussion with Shadow in the other thread over the last couple days.  We have been civil - and will be; I like the guy and would consider him at least a budding friend - but no mistake we disagree PROFOUNDLY on some key issues.   In contemplating our differences though, it really does boil down to "what do you prioritize?"   Neither one of us wants people to die unnecessarily (or at all).  Neither one of us wants people to be poor, to suffer, or to expend undue resources over issues - like skin color - that simply have zero impact on the variables in the equation.  But we prioritize certain things differently when two (or more) concepts conflict or collide.  I would offer that in the case where YOUR prioritization is on, I don't know, the science of aerosol transition, perhaps their prioritization is somewhere else.  How do we address that in a way that is inclusive, is civil, and welcomes compromise?  Because "you deplorable!/you libtard!" isn't working. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 16, 2020, 12:17:52 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on September 16, 2020, 11:49:46 AM

I got hired for our version of the CDC for a function (part-time, voluntary) that basically amounts to interviewing corona patients and logging their data (for research/statistics), nationwide. I was approached/selected due to my background (work experience, degree) and decided to do it. Obviously I won't post anything about my activities, because everything I do will be strictly confidential and data will only be used in professional/official capacity. Not a career change or anything, it is in addition to my actual daytime job, about 8 hours a week for only three months. I soon will start the training procedure. I usually do voluntary work for the Red Cross, but because there are no events in my area for the rest of the year, I decided to dedicate my time to something else. That and some of my hobbies are also non-existent now, giving me a lot of extra free time.

That's great man  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 16, 2020, 12:47:56 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 16, 2020, 11:58:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 16, 2020, 09:07:03 AM

Well said Stads. I agree with much, but not all of it. One area I disagree is when the “other” side (for me) is basing decisions and actions that can (whether directly or indirectly) impact me on their own personal feelings, as opposed to facts.  Whether COVID, climate, economy, whatever. My stance is that decision making should be based on fact and evidence - particularly by those in positions of powers ... whose decisions have a great macro impact.

But bear with:  there's no monopoly on that.  For EVERY issue that a Liberal/Democrat can say "but...  they're basing their decisions on their own personal feelings, as opposed to facts!", I can show you an issue where a Conservative/Republican can say the exact same thing.  And the point is, BOTH sides in BOTH cases can rationalize their side.  So who decides?  There's no Ed Hocule to come in and throw a flag.  It all comes down to personal prioritization of issues.   I took a lot from that discussion with Shadow in the other thread over the last couple days.  We have been civil - and will be; I like the guy and would consider him at least a budding friend - but no mistake we disagree PROFOUNDLY on some key issues.   In contemplating our differences though, it really does boil down to "what do you prioritize?"   Neither one of us wants people to die unnecessarily (or at all).  Neither one of us wants people to be poor, to suffer, or to expend undue resources over issues - like skin color - that simply have zero impact on the variables in the equation.  But we prioritize certain things differently when two (or more) concepts conflict or collide.  I would offer that in the case where YOUR prioritization is on, I don't know, the science of aerosol transition, perhaps their prioritization is somewhere else.  How do we address that in a way that is inclusive, is civil, and welcomes compromise?  Because "you deplorable!/you libtard!" isn't working.

Sounds like hate speech directed to bald people.  I ought to report you!  :lol

But yeah, you make completely legitimate points.  Matters of health and livelihood - both at a macro (the planet) and micro level (jingle.family) and several points in between - tend to get my prioritization of fact based decisions/actions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on September 16, 2020, 02:27:24 PM

I cannot express how little I care about anything that's not getting concerts back.

Bars and restaurants open again? Whatever. I can get a haircut again? Thanks, I've been doing that at home just fine. I can shop clothes/cosmetics/other stuff in store? Meh. Some in-person classes/hobbies open again? I don't really do that. Gyms open? Big merp.

What kills me are the people going, bleep bloop, guess this is our new normal, everything's gone back to as normal as it can be, from now on we'll just live like this forever, minding the curve, working from home and studying online when it starts rising again and reopening when it doesn't. Excuse me, isn't there one large aspect of human living you're forgetting????

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 16, 2020, 02:52:06 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on September 16, 2020, 02:27:24 PM

I cannot express how little I care about anything that's not getting concerts back.

Bars and restaurants open again? Whatever. I can get a haircut again? Thanks, I've been doing that at home just fine. I can shop clothes/cosmetics/other stuff in store? Meh. Some in-person classes/hobbies open again? I don't really do that. Gyms open? Big merp.

What kills me are the people going, bleep bloop, guess this is our new normal, everything's gone back to as normal as it can be, from now on we'll just live like this forever, minding the curve, working from home and studying online when it starts rising again and reopening when it doesn't. Excuse me, isn't there one large aspect of human living you're forgetting????

It's really easy to switch this around on you though and say, "aren't there OTHER aspects of human living (that aren't concerts) you're forgetting?" Like, I want to get back to the gym, but meh. :/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 16, 2020, 03:10:56 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on September 16, 2020, 02:27:24 PM

I cannot express how little I care about anything that's not getting concerts back.

Bars and restaurants open again? Whatever. I can get a haircut again? Thanks, I've been doing that at home just fine. I can shop clothes/cosmetics/other stuff in store? Meh. Some in-person classes/hobbies open again? I don't really do that. Gyms open? Big merp.

What kills me are the people going, bleep bloop, guess this is our new normal, everything's gone back to as normal as it can be, from now on we'll just live like this forever, minding the curve, working from home and studying online when it starts rising again and reopening when it doesn't. Excuse me, isn't there one large aspect of human living you're forgetting????

I really want to go back to concerts too, but honestly, the way the virus spreads... concerts will be the last thing to come back to normal.  It sucks big time, but its the reality. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 16, 2020, 03:26:34 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on September 16, 2020, 02:27:24 PM

I cannot express how little I care about anything that's not getting concerts back.

Bars and restaurants open again? Whatever. I can get a haircut again? Thanks, I've been doing that at home just fine. I can shop clothes/cosmetics/other stuff in store? Meh. Some in-person classes/hobbies open again? I don't really do that. Gyms open? Big merp.

What kills me are the people going, bleep bloop, guess this is our new normal, everything's gone back to as normal as it can be, from now on we'll just live like this forever, minding the curve, working from home and studying online when it starts rising again and reopening when it doesn't. Excuse me, isn't there one large aspect of human living you're forgetting????

I kind of 'feel' how you're describing, but I'm not thinking that way. Looking back at the past few generations, in the US and abroad, huge groups of people had to put life completely on hold for one reason or another and completely shut down. This was either because of great depressions, famines, dust bowls, world wars, other wars, scares about nuclear wars, etc.. Those people had it really fucking bad, and assuming they didn't die before it was over, they eventually got to do the stuff that got put on hold again. At least we still have internet and can go to grocery stores with 98% of their usual inventory. Hospitals are still supplied to handle practically everything. My garbage still gets picked up on time and water is making it to the tap. Amateur pornography has undergone a rapid evolution (seriously, it's kind of fascinating). Concerts will be back. As will dining in at restaurants, and gyrating oneself on strangers at a club. I guess I've just come to terms with this is being my life's (hopefully only) "shut down" period. It's pretty okay all things considered, especially when comparing it to something like a child in Poland in 1939, or any European during the Black Death. I suppose one could argue the Black Death was as bad as it was because they probably didn't shut down or wear masks, or wash their hands most likely. But now I'm rambling..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 16, 2020, 03:30:30 PM

You are looking at the positives.  I can attest from my own experience in these times, it's difficult to look at the positives.  But as you point out, they are there and maybe we should think of the glass half full, not half empty.... but I have to admit for myself, it's been difficult.  I have my health and my job, I really shouldn't be so depressed with the way things are, but I am.  Personally, I think I'd feel significantly better if I went to a concert as that was a way for me to really kind of let loose and gain positive vibes.  I actually think I'm going to try and hit up a drive in show in a couple weeks.  I just put in time for a 6 day vacation so I'm really hoping some time away and a concert will help.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 16, 2020, 04:28:09 PM

I'm watching less news.  Seems to be helping quite a bit.  Got together with a small group of friends (8 total) for dinner and drinks over the weekend.  That was a blast.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on September 16, 2020, 08:45:12 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on September 16, 2020, 04:28:09 PM

I'm watching less news. 

The news on all fronts has been just brutal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 17, 2020, 01:01:23 AM

Quote from: Chino on September 16, 2020, 03:26:34 PM

restaurants, and gyrating oneself on strangers at a club. I guess I've just come to terms with this is being my life's (hopefully only) "shut down" period. It's pretty okay all things considered, especially when comparing it to something like a child in Poland in 1939, or any European during the Black Death. I suppose one could argue the Black Death was as bad as it was because they probably didn't shut down or wear masks, or wash their hands most likely. But now I'm rambling..

I would agree with this, this year is a major shitstorm but I'd daresay that if there has to be a global pandemic, it's "nice" that it happens in a time where scientific knowledge and research is at the top of its game (one could always argue that, 100 or 200 years from now, these were primitive times because we didn't even find the cure for cancer however), and if you really have to be locked down, what better time than an era with internet, and the world's knowledge and entertainment at your tips?

Of course this varies from person to person - I'm one of the lucky ones, I work from home. Hell, I even save the subway monthly fare, so far I did not spend 250 euros on that. I know many people lost their job or couldn't do it and not get paid and that of course sucks immensely, it's just that on broad terms, aside from "never ever", this is the "best" - or least worst - time for a pandemic to happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on September 17, 2020, 08:06:25 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 16, 2020, 02:52:06 PM

Like, I want to get back to the gym, but meh. :/

I'm not forgetting anything, the gym is open where I live. That one was easy to get back. I imagine group fitness has a looooooong way to go though.

Quote from: Chino on September 16, 2020, 03:26:34 PM

I guess I've just come to terms with this is being my life's (hopefully only) "shut down" period.

This is my second one, as I was born straight into a state of non-normalcy because we had this kind of crap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars). It kind of kills me to not be able to be optimistic but I've learned that periods where life is objectively shit and there's absolutely no way out can stretch for years and years and years. There doesn't have to be a logical end. On top of this we could have another thing. And another thing. And things may never go back to normal.

Ugh, sorry. Now that I typed this out I do feel more normal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on September 17, 2020, 10:26:25 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on September 17, 2020, 08:06:25 AM

This is my second one, as I was born straight into a state of non-normalcy because we had this kind of crap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars). It kind of kills me to not be able to be optimistic but I've learned that periods where life is objectively shit and there's absolutely no way out can stretch for years and years and years. There doesn't have to be a logical end. On top of this we could have another thing. And another thing. And things may never go back to normal.

Yep. Was born in 90s right after Soviet Union dissolved. My childhood was utter shit as we were at the edge of poverty, although probably still not as bad as yours. The situation hasn't improved until the 2000s.

I really hope all this goes away with an official vaccine available next year. In any case however, with my country the next thing might've already happened. With no intention of steering this into P/R discussion, considering the recent situation involving Navalny's poisoning and another round of sanctions coming from European Union against Russia I expect our currency to plummet down even more and the prices on everything to increase even further. Along with Covid it's honestly getting a little bit too much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 17, 2020, 12:00:53 PM

Got some uplifting news today. The company reinstated our merit increases AND will be giving us a bonus!

Nice little pat on the back for the six months of hell we have endured at this hospital. I'm grateful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 17, 2020, 02:02:02 PM

Quote from: emtee on September 17, 2020, 12:00:53 PM

Got some uplifting news today. The company reinstated our merit increases AND will be giving us a bonus!

Nice little pat on the back for the six months of hell we have endured at this hospital. I'm grateful.

Our VP sent out an email a few weeks back about how they appreciated all the work we've been doing, how we've hung in there, especially given how crazy things are.  And they want to show their appreciation by sending a little Thank-You gift to each and every one of us.  Sure, sounds good.

It arrived the other day.  A gift pack of different types of popcorn, and a $20 Netflix gift card.  Movie night at home.  The popcorn is "raw"; you have to actually pop it.  It came with some kind of device you put in a microwave to pop the corn.  There are like four different varieties.

Okay sure, it's better than nothing, but only marginally.  I don't eat popcorn and my wife can't eat it.  We could spend a few hours trying to agree on a movie to watch, but with $20 to spend, I'm thinking we'll each pick one, just to use it up.  Like I said, better than nothing, and apparently a lot of thought went into this, but really?  We're a multi-billion-dollar company, and we get $20 each to watch something on TV?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 17, 2020, 03:33:26 PM

Sorry to hear that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 17, 2020, 03:49:30 PM

I'm an ungrateful bastard, I admit.  Like I said, I can tell that they put some thought into this.  If we're all stuck at home anyway, then one way to make it more enjoyable would be to have a good movie to watch or something.  That probably led to the "movie night" concept, and home-popped popcorn in different flavors seemed like a cool idea.

At this point, however, we're somewhat "over" the lockdown.  My wife and I hop in the car and just go driving sometimes.  Cop a buzz, listen to tunes, road trip, like when we were younger.  We do go shopping as necessary (properly masked and observing reasonable safety protocols).  So maybe in the first month or two, when people were all scared shitless and literally not leaving the house at all, it would've made sense.  Where I live, however, we've already adopted the "new normal".  Stores are busy.  Restaurants are busy.  Even movie theaters are open.

The free movies, I'll take.  And it's not their fault that the popcorn is basically wasted, but you take a chance whenever you try to pick something that "everybody likes" because there's always something that some people don't like.  I don't dislike popcorn; it's just not in my nature to sit and munch on stuff for no reason.  I don't feel the need to eat or drink while watching a movie.  Even if I have munchies, empty calories are the bane of mankind.  And my wife is on a strict diet prescribed by her doctor.  So again, nice thought, but ultimately a failure.  I don't know what I was expecting, but when you say you're gonna do something nice, and the result is a bit underwhelming, you almost feel like maybe you shouldn't have said or done anything.

Fuck.  I'm an ungrateful bastard.  I should just take it and shut up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on September 17, 2020, 04:54:51 PM

Shit, at my work all they do is cut staff but keep the workload static. The moment we get used to it they cut another body or two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 17, 2020, 05:03:04 PM

Quote from: lonestar on September 17, 2020, 04:54:51 PM

Shit, at my work all they do is cut staff but keep the workload static. The moment we get used to it they cut another body or two.

Isn't that the strategy of pretty much every public company?

We got a 5% pay decrease.  10% for Managers; 15% for VPs.  Our stock has recovered to pre-COVID levels, so our Execs are all doing just fine.  Our CEO did instil a bonus that kept people flat for our Q4 (last Apr-June), but he held firm on keeping the paycut in place until next June.

We're also a multi-billion dollar company.

Thanks Obama.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 17, 2020, 05:04:18 PM

I think they were trying to stay "stay at home with this gift" and while I agree, Orbert, it's kind of an empty gesture when the corporation is so big, but I guess it's better than nothing.  My team is the ONLY team in my company who comes to work and has been throughout the pandemic.  We don't even get acknowledged.  I don't really expect anything, I get my pay check and I do my part.  If I got a gift card and popcorn, I'd kind of feel the same way in that it doesn't seem like much, but it's still better than nothing.  I think if the CEO just gave us some props during one of our monthly company meetings would be more than enough acknowledgement of our work during these times.... but today's latest work update was that they are identifying who to cut in October  >:( (it won't be me, so I'm not worried)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 18, 2020, 07:05:15 AM

Quote from: Orbert on September 17, 2020, 03:49:30 PM

I'm an ungrateful bastard, I admit.  Like I said, I can tell that they put some thought into this.  If we're all stuck at home anyway, then one way to make it more enjoyable would be to have a good movie to watch or something.  That probably led to the "movie night" concept, and home-popped popcorn in different flavors seemed like a cool idea.

At this point, however, we're somewhat "over" the lockdown.  My wife and I hop in the car and just go driving sometimes.  Cop a buzz, listen to tunes, road trip, like when we were younger.  We do go shopping as necessary (properly masked and observing reasonable safety protocols).  So maybe in the first month or two, when people were all scared shitless and literally not leaving the house at all, it would've made sense.  Where I live, however, we've already adopted the "new normal".  Stores are busy.  Restaurants are busy.  Even movie theaters are open.

The free movies, I'll take.  And it's not their fault that the popcorn is basically wasted, but you take a chance whenever you try to pick something that "everybody likes" because there's always something that some people don't like.  I don't dislike popcorn; it's just not in my nature to sit and munch on stuff for no reason.  I don't feel the need to eat or drink while watching a movie.  Even if I have munchies, empty calories are the bane of mankind.  And my wife is on a strict diet prescribed by her doctor.  So again, nice thought, but ultimately a failure.  I don't know what I was expecting, but when you say you're gonna do something nice, and the result is a bit underwhelming, you almost feel like maybe you shouldn't have said or done anything.

Fuck.  I'm an ungrateful bastard.  I should just take it and shut up.

That statement alone makes you an outlier in America.   :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 18, 2020, 08:08:09 AM

Yeah.  Americans are fat pigs.  Eat a gigantic thing of popcorn while you watch a movie, or several bowls of chips or pretzels while you watch the game.  Hell, even eating dinner in front of the TV is basically the same thing.  Your eyes are occupied, your brain may or may not be, but either way, might as well shove food in your mouth while you do it.  I can't do that.  I've struggled with obesity, laziness, and eventually heart disease, and I've finally gotten my brain away from sitting on my ass and stuffing my face, the new Great American Pastime.  But your point is taken.  Most Americans have no problem with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 18, 2020, 08:10:20 AM

Well, but there isn't anything wrong with eating a gigantic thing of popcorn while watching a movie or wings during the game. There is something wrong with eating a whole lot and not working it off. THAT is the problem. The American diet itself is hot garbage, sure, but combined with a sedentary lifestyle/loads of jobs that just involve sitting, that's how you end up with the disaster that is the collective American health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 18, 2020, 08:15:19 AM

I can't complain.   My company has taken cuts at the C-Suite level (officers of the main company).  In June of this year, the company honored all bonuses, on the logic that most of the work that "earned" the bonus was completed before COVID hit.   Word on the street is that there won't be bonuses in June of next year, and raises have been frozen.   

I can't complain.  I know too many people (including a couple close friends) who were furloughed or let go outright.   I am close enough to the operations of a company in COVID times that I'm a lot more forgiving.  The idea that a company is a "multi-billion dollar company" only matters when you consider the risk involved.  Everything is in scale for these entities.   For example, some of my customers have seen decreases in utilization of OVER 95%.  With that kind of drop in revenue, they're not rushing to pay us what we're owed.  When you're paying rent on multiple facilities that are 500,000 sq. ft. or better, and there is ZERO production going on, the costs are staggering.   For companies that have contracts that they can't deliver on, and are subject to delay claims, liquidated damages, or potential breach, no dollars in the world are going to mitigate that.   We have force majeure ("acts of God") clauses in many of our contracts but this is uncharted territory.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 18, 2020, 08:47:15 AM

I don't throw the multi-$B term around as a means of saying the company shouldn't take measures to maintain its health.  Hell, the airlines, hotels, and cruise lines are multi-$B companies. 

But when our CEO flaunts how well we've weathered the conditions, cash-flow is fantastic, mgmt controlled expenses are way down... yada yada, it certainly feels (especially the MCE) is coming straight out of the pockets of the employee base.

And throwing a 'benefit' at every employee that has a value of $20 can easily be seen as meaningless on micro level.  For all the travel and facilities expenses that virtually all companies are saving, I can see how it might irk the average Joe.  Or Bob.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on September 19, 2020, 02:36:47 AM

This Fucker is coming back in the UK (and a lot of Europe).  After lowering the figures through lockdown and generally keeping those numbers down for several weeks after lockdown ended, as soon as the kids have gone back to school the numbers are on the rise again.   New restrictions have been put in place, can't socialise in groups larger than 6 and local lockdowns on areas showing rapid growth. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 19, 2020, 04:44:25 AM

Shit it picking up here in Ontario as well.  Yesterday had the most new cases since the end of May.  Wave 2 is upon us.

Meet the new boss .... same as the old boss.

We're (northern hemisphere) are gonna be fucked this winter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 19, 2020, 05:03:06 AM

Italy so far is holding on, the spike in contagions are there, but nowhere near as severe as in France, Spain and the UK.

I'm afraid this is what it's gonna be like until a vaccine, some moments where the curve flattens, some other ones where there's spikes, some times strict measures will be enforced and some other times they will be lifted, in an accordion-style movement of spikes and calm moments which will plunge us in constant uncertainty and make us feel any distant plan futile.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on September 19, 2020, 05:07:06 AM

Our city had the most new cases since June today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 19, 2020, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 19, 2020, 04:44:25 AM

Shit it picking up here in Ontario as well.  Yesterday had the most new cases since the end of May.  Wave 2 is upon us.

Meet the new boss .... same as the old boss.

We're (northern hemisphere) are gonna be fucked this winter.

Man, I sure hope you're wrong but I'm afraid it's going to be a brutal winter in the north country.

This is the thing that will not die.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on September 19, 2020, 08:22:54 AM

A while back I posted of an elderly friend passing away from C19, and my niece contacting it (TAC, thanks for your kind words). 

My niece still has almost zero stamina, and will be moving out of her apartment due to income restraints.

A couple in our community in their mid 50s:  the wife helps my wife with our website, he audited our books before I became treasurer.  Both are healthier and more active than us 'oldsters', got it as they started to move items to their new permanent residence in Florida.  He was in acute care for seven days, and is now home while still enduring many after effects.

Another couple:  he accepted a new job in Boston in January, found an apartment, and then C19 hit.  His work shut down, the offer was pulled, and they were stuck with a six month rental contract.  Her mother, aged 71, fell and broke her shoulder, then had to go to a nursing home for two weeks of recovery.  Yup, you guessed it.  She died from C19 two weeks ago.

The test kits our Maryland governor made such a big deal about from South Korea are now 'junked' due to too many false positives.  And while the state says our positive rates are below 3.6%, Johns Hopkins lists it at over 6% (the Ravens multi weekly negative tests are included in the state figures), so he opens things up to 75% capacity.  So much for the common sense he had initially shown, but he's been busy lately on a book tour while the UE agency system continues to crash, with some people waiting THREE MONTHS for their first check.

Our county unexpectedly is going to have teachers come in to teach online students and bring in special needs kids in a few weeks.  There will be a meeting in ten days to discuss this......via Zoom! :facepalm:

The States are now well over 200K in deaths, the flu season is right around the corner.  I see where a few more college games were cancelled, but the Big Ten decides to restart, even though 30% at Penn State who are positive now have myocarditis. 

Money talks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 19, 2020, 09:34:14 AM

So much of this is just plain common sense, which people do not seem to have.  Regardless of what the politicians say, regardless of what restrictions are in place or have been lifted, one thing that doesn't change is that you can't catch it if you're not exposed to it.  And you can't be exposed to it if you stay the fuck away from other people.  I know, people want to go out, dine in restaurants, see movies and concerts.  Fine, go.  But honestly, don't be surprised if you go somewhere surrounded by other people and end up catching a virus.

Schools, teachers, students... yeah, that all sucks.  There are no perfect solutions, but once again, staying the fuck home is a huge first step.  I know, not all schools and communities really have that option.  For that, I'm glad that my kids are past school age.

It will be around for a while.  Like the flu or even the common cold, it will never go away, because like the flu and the common cold it will continue to mutate and defy whatever our science can come up with.  But really, it shouldn't come as a shock to people when cases spike after restrictions are lifted and/or people are crowding together (as in schools).  That's why I always take science over politicians.  Imagine, taking the advice of people who've made it their lifelong goal to seek the truth, as opposed to listening to people whose job is literally to say whatever the most people want to hear.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on September 19, 2020, 09:38:29 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLdDtimzI2Q&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1nRVDqveSITWq_rlZA_S_dyGDTAttHns6sdzEZ3tJimdWr-hwObBOkE54
My video interpretation of Coronavirus 2020

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 19, 2020, 09:57:34 AM

Quote from: Orbert on September 19, 2020, 09:34:14 AM

So much of this is just plain common sense, which people do not seem to have.  Regardless of what the politicians say, regardless of what restrictions are in place or have been lifted, one thing that doesn't change is that you can't catch it if you're not exposed to it.  And you can't be exposed to it if you stay the fuck away from other people.  I know, people want to go out, dine in restaurants, see movies and concerts.  Fine, go.  But honestly, don't be surprised if you go somewhere surrounded by other people and end up catching a virus.

Schools, teachers, students... yeah, that all sucks.  There are no perfect solutions, but once again, staying the fuck home is a huge first step.  I know, not all schools and communities really have that option.  For that, I'm glad that my kids are past school age.

It will be around for a while.  Like the flu or even the common cold, it will never go away, because like the flu and the common cold it will continue to mutate and defy whatever our science can come up with.  But really, it shouldn't come as a shock to people when cases spike after restrictions are lifted and/or people are crowding together (as in schools).  That's why I always take science over politicians.  Imagine, taking the advice of people who've made it their lifelong goal to seek the truth, as opposed to listening to people whose job is literally to say whatever the most people want to hear.

And that's why I say, all those of us who are in fear of catching the virus, should be looking to improve our health any way we can, so we won't succumb to it. And why I stress to learn as much as you can from the elders, if that's your worry, and to ask them how they feel about this virus.

So what are the ways we can, as individuals, as a nation, as a world, do to improve our deteriorating health? What are the causes of our health deteriorating the way it has, that we are succumbing to this virus? Is it our food, the effect of the state of our world society and culture?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 19, 2020, 10:05:41 AM

While the virus is not in the air, it might seem that it's easier to catch it if you live in a polluted area, with bad air quality. It all ties back anyway to the way we're treating our planet, "too much of everything" puts a strain on the equlibrium we have with our only home, we pollute too much and we become more vulnerable to diseases, we pour cement upon every tree we can find and eventually we disturb viruses that were better left the hell alone, which spread and affects us more because we were pollutin the air to begin with...

It all falls back under the global and waaaaay generic and absolutely broad concept of "Don't screw up the planet" basically, of course there are endless discussions to be held not on a forum but in the offices of power about what do locally and nation for nation, but speaking as I said way generally, it all comes back to one thing: we shouldn't screw up our one and only home so much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 19, 2020, 10:19:38 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on September 19, 2020, 10:05:41 AM

While the virus is not in the air, it might seem that it's easier to catch it if you live in a polluted area, with bad air quality. It all ties back anyway to the way we're treating our planet, "too much of everything" puts a strain on the equlibrium we have with our only home, we pollute too much and we become more vulnerable to diseases, we pour cement upon every tree we can find and eventually we disturb viruses that were better left the hell alone, which spread and affects us more because we were pollutin the air to begin with...

It all falls back under the global and waaaaay generic and absolutely broad concept of "Don't screw up the planet" basically, of course there are endless discussions to be held not on a forum but in the offices of power about what do locally and nation for nation, but speaking as I said way generally, it all comes back to one thing: we shouldn't screw up our one and only home so much.

I don't think you're entirely wrong.  And, like the Star One song It's Alive, She's Alive, We're Alive, I seriously think there's merit in the lyric/notion  "Mother Nature's striking back, protecting her domain".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 19, 2020, 10:26:09 AM

I don't see it more as a striking back, even though of course that term is not meant that literally, but more as our failure to remember that not every single portion of the planet belongs to us.

Nature doesn't conjure up by magic bears to protect itself from humans - but if humans insist to roam freely around areas where there are bears, sooner or later someone's gonna injure or kill a human. We should leave bears alone and it's not mandatory to continue to walk, hike or build in areas where there are bears.

At the same time nature doesn't conjure up a virus because humans are overpopulating and overbuilding an area, but eventually going too deep in the jungle and eating everything that once was alive that can be found in it resulted first in the SARS, and then in this.

It's not that nature creates a volcano - it's mankind that is too often too stupid and gets too close to the lava, to make another metaphor.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 19, 2020, 10:51:40 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on September 19, 2020, 10:26:09 AM

I don't see it more as a striking back, even though of course that term is not meant that literally, but more as our failure to remember that not every single portion of the planet belongs to us.

Nature doesn't conjure up by magic bears to protect itself from humans - but if humans insist to roam freely around areas where there are bears, sooner or later someone's gonna injure or kill a human. We should leave bears alone and it's not mandatory to continue to walk, hike or build in areas where there are bears.

At the same time nature doesn't conjure up a virus because humans are overpopulating and overbuilding an area, but eventually going too deep in the jungle and eating everything that once was alive that can be found in it resulted first in the SARS, and then in this.

It's not that nature creates a volcano - it's mankind that is too often too stupid and gets too close to the lava, to make another metaphor.

and that is something I feel and will post on the political/religious section, because my response will go into that direction.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on September 19, 2020, 11:12:39 AM

Quote from: Orbert on September 19, 2020, 09:34:14 AM

So much of this is just plain common sense, which people do not seem to have

This is truly accurate. 

My brother in law coaches a youth football team in WI.  They've had socially distant practices and workouts.  Games have now started.  Earlier this week, a mom took her kid to get tested, THEN drops him off at my brother in law's practice, despite the chance that the kid had COVID.

Kid tested positive.  My brother in law, nephew and their whole team have been exposed.  All because of one parent that still sent their kid somewhere even though they had gone for a test.  The team is now inactivated for two weeks.  My nephew can't go to school either.  Its aggravating. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 19, 2020, 11:27:23 AM

Quote from: Grappler on September 19, 2020, 11:12:39 AM

Quote from: Orbert on September 19, 2020, 09:34:14 AM

So much of this is just plain common sense, which people do not seem to have

This is truly accurate. 

My brother in law coaches a youth football team in WI.  They've had socially distant practices and workouts.  Games have now started.  Earlier this week, a mom took her kid to get tested, THEN drops him off at my brother in law's practice, despite the chance that the kid had COVID.

Kid tested positive.  My brother in law, nephew and their whole team have been exposed.  All because of one parent that still sent their kid somewhere even though they had gone for a test.  The team is now inactivated for two weeks.  My nephew can't go to school either.  Its aggravating.

Isn't that the risk though, once we make the decision to step out that door. When we go to the store, we have that risk. When we walk and the next door neighbor is outside as well, we have that risk. It's all down to how you as an individual are willing to risk it.

All of the people that are taking part in Sports are accepting that risk and acknowledging there is a chance they'll get it, if Social Distancing is so important.

How did your brother in law's team find out the parent knew their was a chance her kid was positive?

The point is in not knowing people's thoughts. No one has a way knowing if another person knows something, until they find out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on September 19, 2020, 01:26:30 PM

My post wasn't about the risk.  The point is that the parent knew there was a chance their kid had COVID, took them for a test, and then still sent them to football practice.  They should have kept the kid at home until they had the results.  Use common sense.  Don't send your kid somewhere if you think they are sick. 

The kid was asymptomatic, and im sure they notified the league. Who then shut the team down for two weeks and exposed 20+ other kids and their famies.  All because of one parent that did not use common sense.

We know the risk.  But use common sense and be smart!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on September 19, 2020, 01:29:27 PM

I take a risk driving the freeway, going to the store, etc.  I am aware and cautious that crotch rockets and autos might zip around me at 90 MPH, go the wrong way on an exit ramp, drive with a .10 or higher alcohol content, etc.  I am aware and cautious that pedestrians won't look or are too busy looking at their phones.  I am aware and cautious that idiots in parking lots will cross the horizontal line from the other lane and pull into a spot that should be open for me.  But I can't stop their behavior.

Same with stores and post offices and restaurants and hotels, and, yes, even casinos (though they and diners we visit are damn strict as hell :tup).  I can't order the idiots to lift up their masks above their mouths or noses, but I can make a snide comment, be cautious, and distance myself even further away.  I cannot do anything about the establishments that are careless, other than to avoid them.  Then I wonder what is wrong with them, and those who are supposed to enforce the rules. 

'Limitations' are far easier than another shutdown.  And if wearing a mask is such an infringement, how would they feel if they were a minority during the Jim Crow 'whites only' bullsh*t?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 19, 2020, 01:46:15 PM

Quote from: Grappler on September 19, 2020, 01:26:30 PM

My post wasn't about the risk.  The point is that the parent knew there was a chance their kid had COVID, took them for a test, and then still sent them to football practice.  They should have kept the kid at home until they had the results.  Use common sense.  Don't send your kid somewhere if you think they are sick. 

The kid was asymptomatic, and im sure they notified the league. Who then shut the team down for two weeks and exposed 20+ other kids and their famies.  All because of one parent that did not use common sense.

We know the risk.  But use common sense and be smart!

But How were the parents and coaches to know she didn't have common sense? It's all Trust, and honor code.

Yes, she's at fault for being an ass. But, so are all of the parents and coaches for accepting that risk just to play football.

Apparently, people can't be reliable, so is it worth the risk of infection?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on September 20, 2020, 07:07:54 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 19, 2020, 01:46:15 PM

But How were the parents and coaches to know she didn't have common sense? It's all Trust, and honor code.

Yes, she's at fault for being an ass. But, so are all of the parents and coaches for accepting that risk just to play football.

Apparently, people can't be reliable, so is it worth the risk of infection?

Some people think it is.  My brother in law coaches his son's team.  My nephew is 13 and is mildly autistic.  He's awkward and has always lagged behind other kids in things like learning to ride a bike, taking an additional 3-5 years beyond his friends to learn.   

My nephew EXCELLS at football.  He lives for it, he's grown, and while he's still awkward, this is one of the few things that he has truly taken a liking to.  So for them, the risk is worth it, because it's the one thing that my nephew loves and that he finally has something in common with his dad, the coach (who played in high school and loves the sport). 

They had to watch my younger nephew (his other son's) game from lawn chairs, far away from the stands.  My brother in law was on the verge of tears as he talked to some family about the situation - having this team yanked away from him for two weeks.  It means a lot to him and my nephew.  And the only reason that it happened is a dumbass parent that figured that they should get their kid tested, but didn't think that maybe they should keep them home until they got the results in case he was positive.  The results took one day.  The kid would have sat out one practice and would not have been responsible for putting his team on ice instead.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 20, 2020, 09:07:45 PM

Quote from: Grappler on September 20, 2020, 07:07:54 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 19, 2020, 01:46:15 PM

But How were the parents and coaches to know she didn't have common sense? It's all Trust, and honor code.

Yes, she's at fault for being an ass. But, so are all of the parents and coaches for accepting that risk just to play football.

Apparently, people can't be reliable, so is it worth the risk of infection?

Some people think it is.  My brother in law coaches his son's team.  My nephew is 13 and is mildly autistic.  He's awkward and has always lagged behind other kids in things like learning to ride a bike, taking an additional 3-5 years beyond his friends to learn.   

My nephew EXCELLS at football.  He lives for it, he's grown, and while he's still awkward, this is one of the few things that he has truly taken a liking to.  So for them, the risk is worth it, because it's the one thing that my nephew loves and that he finally has something in common with his dad, the coach (who played in high school and loves the sport). 

They had to watch my younger nephew (his other son's) game from lawn chairs, far away from the stands.  My brother in law was on the verge of tears as he talked to some family about the situation - having this team yanked away from him for two weeks.  It means a lot to him and my nephew.  And the only reason that it happened is a dumbass parent that figured that they should get their kid tested, but didn't think that maybe they should keep them home until they got the results in case he was positive.  The results took one day.  The kid would have sat out one practice and would not have been responsible for putting his team on ice instead.

I don't know what else to say besides, Trust and Honor Code.

I'm sorry some parent decided to be an asshole and ruin your nephews fun of football. I hope no one comes back positive with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on September 20, 2020, 09:09:08 PM

Grap, I feel for your nephew, trust me. I know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 21, 2020, 06:33:46 AM

As do I.

I'm of mixed emotions reading this last page.  I know, I know, "common sense", but it's not a thing.   We're talking about a heady brew of human nature, psychology, science that is perhaps beyond the average American to REALLY understand (hint:  the ONE THING you probably shouldn't do - indoors, close encounters (read: RESTAURANTS) - are gaining in numbers).    In my state, we're coming off a football season that was emotional and special (Newtown, site of the Sandy Hook shooting five years ago, won their state football title on a last second play) and now the CIAC, the body that governs it, cancelled football for the fall.  Something like 100 players and their parents protested on multiple occasions to get that reversed, all citing "science" (if you count "other states are doing it" as "science").   Plaintive, emotional arguments about the "one chance" that many of these kids have to make an impression on a college coach, thus "their future".   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 06:59:14 AM

Despite the fact that YOU feel there’s no such thing as common sense, many (here, and in broader society) do. Just saying it over and over and over and over again doesn’t make your view on the matter any more right than others’.

Yes, I realize I’m opening a can of worms with you in this matter. It’s something I think everyone here knows you’re extremely ardent about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:13:46 AM

I spent a few hours walking around a pond by a park yesterday, and there were a small handful of people (like, 6 max) across the whole area all evening. Some woman was walking with (I assume) her husband, and she had a mask and kept it down, but when she got like 100 feet away from me she put it up and walked through the grass to avoid getting near me. How stupid is that?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 21, 2020, 07:24:51 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 06:59:14 AM

Despite the fact that YOU feel there’s no such thing as common sense, many (here, and in broader society) do. Just saying it over and over and over and over again doesn’t make your view on the matter any more right than others’.

Yes, I realize I’m opening a can of worms with you in this matter. It’s something I think everyone here knows you’re extremely ardent about.

My experience with the general public leads me to agree with Stadler.  Common sense is largely a myth.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 21, 2020, 07:35:02 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:13:46 AM

Some woman was walking with (I assume) her husband, and she had a mask and kept it down, but when she got like 100 feet away from me she put it up and walked through the grass to avoid getting near me. How stupid is that?  :lol

What's stupid in avoiding people? that's literally how I spent my two weeks of holidays, never coming close to anyone and avoiding them on purpouse, making the few extra steps on the side when possible.

She didn't throw herself under a bus or crawled under a parked car just to avoid another person - she was in the open, in the park, there was a way to be a bit faraway from another incoming person and she took it.

The mask if at all is a reflex - the mask protects THE OTHERS, not YOU, so if by chance you're infected and sneeze the moment she's right beside you, having a mask on wouldn't save her. But still, it's better to use it in vain than not use it at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on September 21, 2020, 07:35:02 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:13:46 AM

Some woman was walking with (I assume) her husband, and she had a mask and kept it down, but when she got like 100 feet away from me she put it up and walked through the grass to avoid getting near me. How stupid is that?  :lol

What's stupid in avoiding people? that's literally how I spent my two weeks of holidays, never coming close to anyone and avoiding them on purpouse, making the few extra steps on the side when possible.

She didn't throw herself under a bus or crawled under a parked car just to avoid another person - she was in the open, in the park, there was a way to be a bit faraway from another incoming person and she took it.

The mask if at all is a reflex - the mask protects THE OTHERS, not YOU, so if by chance you're infected and sneeze the moment she's right beside you, having a mask on wouldn't save her. But still, it's better to use it in vain than not use it at all.

It's stupid because there were 6 people spread across a half mile of distance and wouldn't wear her mask while walking directly alongside someone but puts it up and walks through the grass 100 feet away from someone else. That's what's stupid. She might as well have crawled under a car with how far out of her way she went. I fucking understand what a mask is for, mom :lol no need to tell me something I was telling people in this thread about back in March. And if you're that fearful of walking near someone, dear god I hope she doesn't go to the grocery store

Also I feel the need to stress that we have like, almost no COVID cases here anymore. Literally the only cases are from schools now, and it's maybe 1 or 2 a week. She has a better chance of catching a cold or the flu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 21, 2020, 07:51:08 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on September 21, 2020, 07:35:02 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:13:46 AM

Some woman was walking with (I assume) her husband, and she had a mask and kept it down, but when she got like 100 feet away from me she put it up and walked through the grass to avoid getting near me. How stupid is that?  :lol

What's stupid in avoiding people? that's literally how I spent my two weeks of holidays, never coming close to anyone and avoiding them on purpouse, making the few extra steps on the side when possible.

She didn't throw herself under a bus or crawled under a parked car just to avoid another person - she was in the open, in the park, there was a way to be a bit faraway from another incoming person and she took it.

The mask if at all is a reflex - the mask protects THE OTHERS, not YOU, so if by chance you're infected and sneeze the moment she's right beside you, having a mask on wouldn't save her. But still, it's better to use it in vain than not use it at all.

It's stupid because there were 6 people spread across a half mile of distance and wouldn't wear her mask while walking directly alongside someone but puts it up and walks through the grass 100 feet away from someone else. That's what's stupid. She might as well have crawled under a car with how far out of her way she went. I fucking understand what a mask is for, mom :lol no need to tell me something I was telling people in this thread about back in March. And if you're that fearful of walking near someone, dear god I hope she doesn't go to the grocery store

Also I feel the need to stress that we have like, almost no COVID cases here anymore. Literally the only cases are from schools now, and it's maybe 1 or 2 a week. She has a better chance of catching a cold or the flu.

Well, in this situation, it matters whether that was her husband or not. So, since we don't know that.

If it's her husband, I have no problem with it and don't see it as stupid. They live in the same house, and share the same bed.

If it's her boyfriend, then it could go either way as there is more we need to know.

If it's a friend that's a boy, then I might agree with you.


Edit: Just noticed, you didn't say anything whether the man had a mask or not. If not, then I totally agree with you about her stupidity. Why have a mask anyways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:54:22 AM

See you're splitting hairs now. What difference at all does it make if the guy is her boyfriend or her husband? Now you're operating on assumptions. You know people can live together if they're not married yeah? Just let me have my moment bitching about people. Jeeze.  :lol

The man didn't have a mask either. I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen outside, walking or running, wearing a mask. It's dumb to do out here in a sparsely populated area. Ain't gonna change my view on this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 21, 2020, 07:54:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 06:59:14 AM

Despite the fact that YOU feel there’s no such thing as common sense, many (here, and in broader society) do. Just saying it over and over and over and over again doesn’t make your view on the matter any more right than others’.

Yes, I realize I’m opening a can of worms with you in this matter. It’s something I think everyone here knows you’re extremely ardent about.

I never said that; I'm very aware that it's my view.  Although:  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-power-prime/201107/common-sense-is-neither-common-nor-sense  (And "saying it over and over" doesn't make it right - read any of my posts where I call that out - but if it's right to begin with, restating those same FACTS over and over may be of benefit for those that haven't seen them before). 

Having said that, regardless who is right - you or me - there's the issue of "the other guy". Most of this discussion is about "the other guy".  The "other guy" isn't wearing their mask right.  "The other guy" is emphasizing football over my health.  "The other guy..."   Isn't it amazing that everyone in this forum is perfect in terms of the levels of personal protection, and exposure, and what their life priorities are?   I say that to be funny, but it's not an insignificant point. 

You made the comment about "my view", and it's one I take to heart.  I know FULL WELL that many of my views aren't in keeping with the majority. I'm okay with that.  But here's the thing:   my OPINION is of equal value to all of them.  And while I also believe that opinions have zero value, it's reinforced the idea that mob rule is a bad way to go.   It's actually BECAUSE I know I'm not in step with the rest that I am so conscious of respecting the views of those that don't agree with me.  Like the people that seemingly don't know how to wear a mask.  Or the people that seemingly value a high school football game over human life.   Namely, "the other guy".     All this is about forcing someone else to do what you - the collective, but still, YOU - want them to do because of YOUR prioritization of the issues.  That's the only point I'm trying to make.  Labeling it "common sense" - whether it exists or not - doesn't make that prioritization any more or less valid. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 21, 2020, 08:01:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:54:22 AM

See you're splitting hairs now. What difference at all does it make if the guy is her boyfriend or her husband? Now you're operating on assumptions. You know people can live together if they're not married yeah? Just let me have my moment bitching about people. Jeeze.  :lol

The man didn't have a mask either. I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen outside, walking or running, wearing a mask. It's dumb to do out here in a sparsely populated area. Ain't gonna change my view on this.

Yeah I was splitting hairs. But you also made the assumption that she's her husband. And it's also why I said it can go either way because I know boyfriends and girlfriends can live together. It just adds more variables to the assumption she's stupid.    :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 21, 2020, 08:02:11 AM

I bought a utility trailer yesterday from a guy two towns over.  I showed up, with mask, and at one time or another, spoke to his wife, him, his sister-in-law, and some other guy (might have been his dad).  As I said, I wore a mask; no one else did.  At one point as I was hooking up the trailer, my mask got tangled, and I made a joke about it.  He said "I don't believe in that stuff anyway" and waved his hand.  I just said "well, I wore it out of respect for you.  I came to your house, and figured better safe than sorry".   Finished hooking up the trailer and left.   I suppose I put myself at some higher risk than if I sat at my dinner table and did crossword puzzles, but it is what it is.   I can't control that situation any more than I can control the weather.  It's a man with his family in his own house.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 21, 2020, 08:09:06 AM

Quote from: Stadler on September 21, 2020, 08:02:11 AM

I bought a utility trailer yesterday from a guy two towns over.  I showed up, with mask, and at one time or another, spoke to his wife, him, his sister-in-law, and some other guy (might have been his dad).  As I said, I wore a mask; no one else did.  At one point as I was hooking up the trailer, my mask got tangled, and I made a joke about it.  He said "I don't believe in that stuff anyway" and waved his hand.  I just said "well, I wore it out of respect for you.  I came to your house, and figured better safe than sorry".   Finished hooking up the trailer and left.   I suppose I put myself at some higher risk than if I sat at my dinner table and did crossword puzzles, but it is what it is.   I can't control that situation any more than I can control the weather.  It's a man with his family in his own house.

And that is my main point of it all. You can't control people, and people will be assholes. It's expected when you walk out that door and take the risk that some asshole will be an asshole and do things to people regardless. So all you (as an individual) can do is mask up, and stay separated, if you are concerned about it and stay home as much as you can.

Not saying those guys are assholes either. It's their home, and you're the stranger in their home so it's expected of you (the stranger) to take these precautions.

Now I wonder how it would've went down if you didn't wear a mask. I doubt they'd care at as it's not a risk they consider big to them.

Now this all goes into Morals. Dammit, brain... :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 21, 2020, 08:38:25 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 07:13:46 AM

I spent a few hours walking around a pond by a park yesterday, and there were a small handful of people (like, 6 max) across the whole area all evening. Some woman was walking with (I assume) her husband, and she had a mask and kept it down, but when she got like 100 feet away from me she put it up and walked through the grass to avoid getting near me. How stupid is that?  :lol

I still don't see anything stupid here.  If you're with a group of people, there's no point in wearing masks because you've all been exposed to each other anyway.  But around others, she put the mask up (whether out of courtesy or what, we don't know) and went out of her way to keep her distance from you.

When my daughter was home over break and the four of us went for walks (me, wife, both kids) that's exactly what we did.  The four of us walked together, masks in hand.  When we passed others on the path, everyone put their masks on as we passed each other.  Sometimes people stayed way off to the side to increase distance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 08:41:37 AM

Well, that's you... Down here, in a sparsely populated area, I think it is stupid to wear a mask out in the open air when almost nobody ever runs across your path. Don't see what it matters, either, it's not like I stopped and chastised her. I saw people out in the July heat walking down the sidewalk at high noon with thick masks on their faces, and there's nobody around them for the length of a football track and it made me laugh. Again, you're not gonna change my view on this small meaningless matter, I just find it amusing. That's why I just post my thoughts here, because I'm not gonna go tell someone how to live.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 21, 2020, 08:46:24 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 08:41:37 AM

Well, that's you... Down here, in a sparsely populated area, I think it is stupid to wear a mask out in the open air when almost nobody ever runs across your path. Don't see what it matters, either, it's not like I stopped and chastised her. I saw people out in the July heat walking down the sidewalk at high noon with thick masks on their faces, and there's nobody around them for the length of a football track and it made me laugh. Again, you're not gonna change my view on this small meaningless matter, I just find it amusing. That's why I just post my thoughts here, because I'm not gonna go tell someone how to live.

It's like wearing a mask when you're driving alone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 08:51:21 AM

Yeah, exactly. Like, hey, you do you, but uh... you look silly  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 21, 2020, 08:52:43 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 08:41:37 AM

Well, that's you... Down here, in a sparsely populated area, I think it is stupid to wear a mask out in the open air when almost nobody ever runs across your path. Don't see what it matters, either, it's not like I stopped and chastised her. I saw people out in the July heat walking down the sidewalk at high noon with thick masks on their faces, and there's nobody around them for the length of a football track and it made me laugh. Again, you're not gonna change my view on this small meaningless matter, I just find it amusing. That's why I just post my thoughts here, because I'm not gonna go tell someone how to live.

I'm not trying to tell you how to live.  I'm just trying to understand your thought process, and it's like you're intentionally avoiding explaining it.

Yes, it's stupid to wear in a sparsely populated area.  So she didn't wear it.  But it makes perfect sense to put it on when you do encounter other people, so she put it on.  What did she do that was stupid?

Whether the area you live in is sparsely populated or not, it's where you are and who is around you at the time that matters, and she did exactly what I would have expected (except for maybe cutting across the grass).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 08:55:02 AM

Quote from: Orbert on September 21, 2020, 08:52:43 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 08:41:37 AM

Well, that's you... Down here, in a sparsely populated area, I think it is stupid to wear a mask out in the open air when almost nobody ever runs across your path. Don't see what it matters, either, it's not like I stopped and chastised her. I saw people out in the July heat walking down the sidewalk at high noon with thick masks on their faces, and there's nobody around them for the length of a football track and it made me laugh. Again, you're not gonna change my view on this small meaningless matter, I just find it amusing. That's why I just post my thoughts here, because I'm not gonna go tell someone how to live.

I'm not trying to tell you how to live.  I'm just trying to understand your thought process, and it's like you're intentionally avoiding explaining it.

Yes, it's stupid to wear in a sparsely populated area.  So she didn't wear it.  But it makes perfect sense to put it on when you do encounter other people, so she put it on. What did she do that was stupid?

Whether the area you live in is sparsely populated or not, it's where you are and who is around you at the time that matters, and she did exactly what I would have expected (except for maybe cutting across the grass).

(EDIT: I wasn't implying you were telling me how to live. That had nothing to do with you :P )

Me: blowing off steam on a Monday morning
Everyone else: let me explain to you things you already know and ask you questions you already answered

Like I literally answered that question already. If you think I'm a jackass (which I fully admit I can be, it won't hurt my feelings), just say so, but no need to beat the dead horse. Jeeze guys. I thought what she did was dumb, you don't, I'm the one who was there, we can move on now and stop treating this like it's forensics  :lol

Hey, did you guys hear about this coronavirus thing? It might become a problem, idk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on September 21, 2020, 09:01:11 AM

The county I live in in Wisconsin has been averaging about 15 new cases a day for quite a while, yesterday we had 78 new cases.

I hate this virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 09:19:04 AM

CNN headline: "The CDC website says there is growing evidence droplets and airborne particles can remain in the air and be breathed in by others, and travel over 6 feet"

Wow, no shit? I was saying the same thing back in April. Particles don't just magically stop at a 6 foot boundary. And you're telling me they can stay in the AIR and be breathed in by others? Oh man this changes everything. Good lord... :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 21, 2020, 09:21:04 AM

I'm more worried about all this damn smoke. And how it's going to effect us in this coming season of sicknesses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 21, 2020, 09:25:11 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 09:19:04 AM

CNN headline: "The CDC website says there is growing evidence droplets and airborne particles can remain in the air and be breathed in by others, and travel over 6 feet"

Wow, no shit? I was saying the same thing back in April. Particles don't just magically stop at a 6 foot boundary. And you're telling me they can stay in the AIR and be breathed in by others? Oh man this changes everything. Good lord... :facepalm:

ARE YOU SERIOUS...That's like a giant kick in the balls.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 10:23:19 AM

Mike... in case anyone hasn't told you today, you're a jackass.   :biggrin:

And yeah... I'm really not sure what that CDC release was supposed to accomplish - wasn't this, like, common knowledge (oh dear, there I go using the "common" word again!).  I always assumed 6 ft was the minimum distance we should be keeping.  More is better for sure.  More distance = more safety = less risk.

IMO, this is nothing new.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 21, 2020, 10:26:48 AM

Quote from: T-ski on September 21, 2020, 09:01:11 AM

The county I live in in Wisconsin has been averaging about 15 new cases a day for quite a while, yesterday we had 78 new cases.

I hate this virus.

We've seen more infections here too, I think from Labor Day gatherings.  Hospitalizations aren't up though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 10:30:13 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 10:23:19 AM

Mike... in case anyone hasn't told you today, you're a jackass.   :biggrin:

Say that to my face, hoser!

Yes, I am trying to prod you into coming back to Atlanta next year  :loser:  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 21, 2020, 11:00:27 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 10:30:13 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 10:23:19 AM

Mike... in case anyone hasn't told you today, you're a jackass.   :biggrin:

Say that to my face, hoser!

Yes, I am trying to prod you into coming back to Atlanta next year  :loser:  :lol

If this is any motivator to come to atlanta, please do call him a jack ass to his face  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 12:54:00 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on September 21, 2020, 11:00:27 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 10:30:13 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 10:23:19 AM

Mike... in case anyone hasn't told you today, you're a jackass.   :biggrin:

Say that to my face, hoser!

Yes, I am trying to prod you into coming back to Atlanta next year  :loser:  :lol

If this is any motivator to come to atlanta, please do call him a jack ass to his face  :lol

First round's on me if he does it! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on September 21, 2020, 01:00:17 PM

The CDC now retracts their earlier statement pertaining to air spread.

https://wcbs880.radio.com/articles/radiocom/cdc-growing-evidence-that-covid-spreads-mainly-through-air

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on September 21, 2020, 01:01:34 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 21, 2020, 08:41:37 AM

Well, that's you... Down here, in a sparsely populated area, I think it is stupid to wear a mask out in the open air when almost nobody ever runs across your path. Don't see what it matters, either, it's not like I stopped and chastised her. I saw people out in the July heat walking down the sidewalk at high noon with thick masks on their faces, and there's nobody around them for the length of a football track and it made me laugh. Again, you're not gonna change my view on this small meaningless matter, I just find it amusing. That's why I just post my thoughts here, because I'm not gonna go tell someone how to live.

I do indeed understand where you're coming from. I live in a town of 4K people and I took the dog for a walk and didn't pass a single person. Driving home I passed a car with a single person in the car and he was wearing a mask. Yes, it perplexes me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 21, 2020, 02:44:28 PM

Quote from: Chino on September 21, 2020, 01:00:17 PM

The CDC now retracts their earlier statement pertaining to air spread.

https://wcbs880.radio.com/articles/radiocom/cdc-growing-evidence-that-covid-spreads-mainly-through-air

This doesn't smell fishy at all.   :o

CDC:  Just a reminder everyone, cuz ya'll so stupid to not physically distance, respiratory droplets can travel more than 6 feet, especially indoors.
White House:

(https://media.tenor.com/images/10ace95d1f199304aa66fe15856511ce/tenor.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on September 21, 2020, 04:20:34 PM

I said it earlier but if one wants to apply mask usage protocol, you're not supposed to take it off until you can wash your hands with soap and water immediately after, which is why you would still be wearing in your car on the way or until you got home.   Now of course not many people do it that way,  I certainly don't,  but it IS the recommended way of using it.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-to-wear-cloth-face-coverings.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on September 21, 2020, 07:41:28 PM

My favorite was watching my neighbor put on a mask to walk to his shed and back. Literally no one else outside within view. Certainly no one within 50 feet. He was never less than 20 feet from the edge of his property. To each their own I guess. I personally don't wear a mask for a minute more than I have to by the executive order or my workplaces requirements and sanitize/wash my hand frequently.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 23, 2020, 02:20:43 PM

It's odd...a mask is starting to feel like a seat belt. When it's not on I feel weird.

Also funny to watch so many epic mask failures. Whether It's on football games, news interviews, or just anybody anywhere. The masks fall off their nose and constantly have to be pushed up. You're not even supposed to touch your mask, but everyone does. I honestly wonder, after seeing the struggle, how much good are they really doing?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 23, 2020, 03:18:58 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on September 21, 2020, 04:20:34 PM

I said it earlier but if one wants to apply mask usage protocol, you're not supposed to take it off until you can wash your hands with soap and water immediately after, which is why you would still be wearing in your car on the way or until you got home.   Now of course not many people do it that way,  I certainly don't,  but it IS the recommended way of using it.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-to-wear-cloth-face-coverings.html

How bout just not touching your face until you get a chance to wash your hands?  Then, wash your face after washing hands.  Makes more sense than leaving a mask on until washing hands when there's no one around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 23, 2020, 03:22:46 PM

If you're like me, you already touch your face so often you never really cared about touching your mask anyway. It's not a big deal if you touch your mask imo, it's not lava

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 23, 2020, 03:24:07 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 23, 2020, 03:22:46 PM

If you're like me, you already touch your face so often you never really cared about touching your mask anyway. It's not a big deal if you touch your mask imo, it's not lava

You're not wearing your lava mask?

Pussy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 23, 2020, 03:24:15 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on September 21, 2020, 07:41:28 PM

My favorite was watching my neighbor put on a mask to walk to his shed and back. Literally no one else outside within view. Certainly no one within 50 feet. He was never less than 20 feet from the edge of his property. To each their own I guess. I personally don't wear a mask for a minute more than I have to by the executive order or my workplaces requirements and sanitize/wash my hand frequently.

Your neighbour certainly did a completely useless thing, but between the two extremes, I'd rather have someone wearing it pointlessly than someone refusing to wear it or not making just two literal steps aside when crossing someone, in situations when there's plenty of space to do so.

After two weeks of holidays walking around places I'd swear the ratio of people who made the effort to avoid me was 1 to 100 if not even lower. Today I was outside the gates of my house after a bike ride, searching for the keys to enter, a girl was coming behind me and I was already thinking "Of course she'll pass right behind me" and she instead went a bit in the street to avoid coming close to me. I wanted to offer something, I am always, ALWAYS the one who avoids other people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 23, 2020, 03:31:47 PM

Quote from: Adami on September 23, 2020, 03:24:07 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 23, 2020, 03:22:46 PM

If you're like me, you already touch your face so often you never really cared about touching your mask anyway. It's not a big deal if you touch your mask imo, it's not lava

You're not wearing your lava mask?

Pussy.

I'm an Aquarius, man. Wind type here. Pidgeotto representin'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on September 23, 2020, 03:33:33 PM

How about keeping hand sanitizer in all your vehicles which is what we do after shopping. And doctors and nurses pull their masks down all the time when working so it's not a big deal to pull your mask  off and on, even with the covids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 23, 2020, 03:40:19 PM

It's already been proven that keeping hand sanitizer in your car, especially while living in a warm climate is dangerous.  :splodetard:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 23, 2020, 07:17:36 PM

Dr. Fauci layeth the smacketh down on Rand Paul's candy ass!! (only 1:51 long)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRPbYzywM2o

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on September 24, 2020, 02:04:32 AM

Challenging someone who's a professional and knows what he's doing is never really a good idea, especially when this professional can shove aside any bullshit without flinching and remaining calm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on September 24, 2020, 01:27:55 PM

Quote from: emtee on September 23, 2020, 02:20:43 PM

It's odd...a mask is starting to feel like a seat belt. When it's not on I feel weird.

Also funny to watch so many epic mask failures. Whether It's on football games, news interviews, or just anybody anywhere. The masks fall off their nose and constantly have to be pushed up. You're not even supposed to touch your mask, but everyone does. I honestly wonder, after seeing the struggle, how much good are they really doing?

I think we are quickly coming to the point of - Why haven't we been wearing masks all along, especially during flu season? This mask wearing thing is here to stay, maybe not as prolific as in a pandemic but it ain't going anywhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 24, 2020, 03:57:10 PM

This probably belongs in the Politics side of the COVID discussion, but really, REALLY tired of how everything has to be a WWE pay-per-view event. 

I had to google Fauci's statements (https://www.google.com/search?q=fauci+rand+paul&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-ab) and these were the headlines (from reputable news outlets!): 

"Fauci loses his patience" (like he's a frustrated parent)
"Fauci has heard just about enough from Paul"
"Fauci hits back against Paul"
"Fauci's schooling of Rand Paul draws cheers"

I want to ask the group these questions:
Is this helping?  Is anyone's mind being changed with this "schooling"?   If you watch the video, Fauci actually didn't really do any of these things, other than the "you aren't listening" comment.   He was calm, he was patient, and he stuck to the facts.   Why does everything need to be so vitriolic?   And why are so many people seemingly getting JOY from these exchanges?   Are we SO insecure that we need to get our self-worth from watching our positions justified in such seemingly violent and aggressive ways?  And why is the mainstream press promoting this?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:00:54 PM

Because playing into our base and awful tendencies is a full proof plan to get support. Or in this case money.

You’re asking why they figured out to effectively advertise to increase profits. Because that’s all they care about. Just like when politicians do it. It’s easy and works almost every single time.

It’s smart. Harmful but smart.

Why do you think sports rivalries exist? Drums up support and money. This isn’t new at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 24, 2020, 04:09:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:00:54 PM

Because playing into our base and awful tendencies is a full proof plan to get support. Or in this case money.

You’re asking why they figured out to effectively advertise to increase profits. Because that’s all they care about. Just like when politicians do it. It’s easy and works almost every single time.

It’s smart. Harmful but smart.

Why do you think sports rivalries exist? Drums up support and money. This isn’t new at all.

For a NEWS outlet?  Isn't the argument - by some, including many IN the field of journalism - that when we undermine the press, we undermine democracy (thus the criticism of Trump's "fake news")?    If they're a marketing tool, what's to undermine?   Deliver the facts.  Let me decide if it's an appropriate response or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:15:29 PM

Quote from: Sadler on September 24, 2020, 04:09:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:00:54 PM

Because playing into our base and awful tendencies is a full proof plan to get support. Or in this case money.

You’re asking why they figured out to effectively advertise to increase profits. Because that’s all they care about. Just like when politicians do it. It’s easy and works almost every single time.

It’s smart. Harmful but smart.

Why do you think sports rivalries exist? Drums up support and money. This isn’t new at all.

For a NEWS outlet?  Isn't the argument - by some, including many IN the field of journalism - that when we undermine the press, we undermine democracy (thus the criticism of Trump's "fake news")?    If they're a marketing tool, what's to undermine?   Deliver the facts.  Let me decide if it's an appropriate response or not.

This is capitalism. They are a business. A business exists solely to generate profit. If that can be done by being great journalists, it will. But it’s easier and cheaper to do it this way. If you want to use that as an excuse to say it’s okay for the government to undermine them at will, have at it.

But yes. They don’t exist to be a source of news. They exist to make money. That’s our system that we defend at all costs.

Edit: do you know what happens if news sources started only publishing cold hard facts and nothing else? The masses won’t buy them. They will go under. Then the companies that do clickbait will profit and continue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 24, 2020, 04:44:58 PM

There’s always Reuter’s and AP if all you want is news and facts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on September 24, 2020, 05:37:53 PM

Quote from: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:15:29 PM

Quote from: Sadler on September 24, 2020, 04:09:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:00:54 PM

Because playing into our base and awful tendencies is a full proof plan to get support. Or in this case money.

You’re asking why they figured out to effectively advertise to increase profits. Because that’s all they care about. Just like when politicians do it. It’s easy and works almost every single time.

It’s smart. Harmful but smart.

Why do you think sports rivalries exist? Drums up support and money. This isn’t new at all.

For a NEWS outlet?  Isn't the argument - by some, including many IN the field of journalism - that when we undermine the press, we undermine democracy (thus the criticism of Trump's "fake news")?    If they're a marketing tool, what's to undermine?   Deliver the facts.  Let me decide if it's an appropriate response or not.

This is capitalism. They are a business. A business exists solely to generate profit. If that can be done by being great journalists, it will. But it’s easier and cheaper to do it this way. If you want to use that as an excuse to say it’s okay for the government to undermine them at will, have at it.

But yes. They don’t exist to be a source of news. They exist to make money. That’s our system that we defend at all costs.

Edit: do you know what happens if news sources started only publishing cold hard facts and nothing else? The masses won’t buy them. They will go under. Then the companies that do clickbait will profit and continue.

I've been thinking this before, but there's this song from Switchfoot called Selling the News.  My goodness, the lyrics in that song keeps holding true in regards what news media has become as the years goes by and that song was released in 2011, nine years ago.

Anywho, back on topic.  Are we approaching the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of stabilizing the infection?  If so, how do we keep it from spreading out of control?  Just continue to maintain social distancing and wearing masks in public?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on September 24, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on September 24, 2020, 01:27:55 PM

Quote from: emtee on September 23, 2020, 02:20:43 PM

It's odd...a mask is starting to feel like a seat belt. When it's not on I feel weird.

Also funny to watch so many epic mask failures. Whether It's on football games, news interviews, or just anybody anywhere. The masks fall off their nose and constantly have to be pushed up. You're not even supposed to touch your mask, but everyone does. I honestly wonder, after seeing the struggle, how much good are they really doing?

I think we are quickly coming to the point of - Why haven't we been wearing masks all along, especially during flu season? This mask wearing thing is here to stay, maybe not as prolific as in a pandemic but it ain't going anywhere.

it damn well better go away. I fucking hate it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on September 24, 2020, 08:56:39 PM

NJ this month lifted many restrictions and for the first time since Super Bowl Sunday, I met up with a few of my friends at Top Golf for beers, apps, and a driving range.  It was a lot of fun.  You had to wear your mask at all times except in our tee both/table area.  It felt weird to have my mask off while the waiter had his on.  The place was actually really packed overall too.  Plenty of people outside smoking without masks.  Such a weird time we live in, but a really nice evening of doing things I miss. Heading up to Maine next week, I won't need to provide a negative covid test result or quarantine because NJ is one of the "safe states" according to Maine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on September 24, 2020, 09:17:54 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on September 24, 2020, 01:27:55 PM

I think we are quickly coming to the point of - Why haven't we been wearing masks all along, especially during flu season? This mask wearing thing is here to stay, maybe not as prolific as in a pandemic but it ain't going anywhere.

To answer your question... because for most people, wearing a mask throughout flu season is not worth the risk of get the flu. Mask wearing is definitely not hear to stay, unless Project Blue gets leaked from a government lab.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on September 25, 2020, 04:22:25 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on September 24, 2020, 09:17:54 PM

for most people, wearing a mask throughout flu season is not worth the risk of get the flu.

I don't understand what you're trying to say

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 25, 2020, 05:06:30 AM

Quote from: Elite on September 25, 2020, 04:22:25 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on September 24, 2020, 09:17:54 PM

for most people, wearing a mask throughout flu season is not worth the risk of get the flu.

I don't understand what you're trying to say

I believe he’s saying that wearing a mask when in public for a few months od the year is more inconvenient than the consequences of A) individually getting the flu, B) spreading it if you are sick (knowingly or asymptomatically), and C) at a macro level, contributing to the reduction of tens of thousands of deaths annually.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 25, 2020, 07:04:05 AM

Last year I didn't get sick at all and I didn't wear a mask. Not gonna wear one this winter either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 25, 2020, 07:41:31 AM

Quote from: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:15:29 PM

Quote from: Sadler on September 24, 2020, 04:09:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on September 24, 2020, 04:00:54 PM

Because playing into our base and awful tendencies is a full proof plan to get support. Or in this case money.

You’re asking why they figured out to effectively advertise to increase profits. Because that’s all they care about. Just like when politicians do it. It’s easy and works almost every single time.

It’s smart. Harmful but smart.

Why do you think sports rivalries exist? Drums up support and money. This isn’t new at all.

For a NEWS outlet?  Isn't the argument - by some, including many IN the field of journalism - that when we undermine the press, we undermine democracy (thus the criticism of Trump's "fake news")?    If they're a marketing tool, what's to undermine?   Deliver the facts.  Let me decide if it's an appropriate response or not.

This is capitalism. They are a business. A business exists solely to generate profit. If that can be done by being great journalists, it will. But it’s easier and cheaper to do it this way. If you want to use that as an excuse to say it’s okay for the government to undermine them at will, have at it.

But yes. They don’t exist to be a source of news. They exist to make money. That’s our system that we defend at all costs.

Edit: do you know what happens if news sources started only publishing cold hard facts and nothing else? The masses won’t buy them. They will go under. Then the companies that do clickbait will profit and continue.

And that's a relatively new occurrence.  As of the 80's and 90's, the major news outlets - NBC, ABC, CBS - were a separate entity with a budget but no profit quota.  That started to change a bit in the late 90's when GE bought NBC, but even then, Tom Brokaw was a JOURNALIST first, and not a profit generator.   We've morphed now, but that's not to say it's a good thing or consistent with the rest of the arguments surrounding "journalism" and their role in democracy.

The news outlets can't really have it both ways. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on September 25, 2020, 02:03:35 PM

I agree. Which is why I say let’s take down capitalism.  :xbones

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 28, 2020, 07:16:12 AM

So, it will be interesting to watch:   Florida has reopened bars and restaurants to 50% capacity (and only seated patrons to be served).   Face masks and social distancing still required.   I'm sure this will be viewed as a litmus test, but that has it's problems (Florida's demographics are rather different than many other states; I don't have the transient travel in CT that FL does, for example).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 28, 2020, 08:11:12 AM

The latest news is about the masks being a rudimentary "vaccine" - it might be that they filter just enough of the virus to let you assume small doses that give you immunity, which is the very premise of vaccination (inoculating small doses of a virus so that your body gets prepared to fight it).

I don't know if this is gonna be definitively proven, but that could explain why having been around this summer quite a bit I still avoided any kind of infection. Or maybe avoiding people at all costs all the time was already enough, dunno  :D I never let anyone come near me aside from waitresses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on September 28, 2020, 10:08:38 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on September 28, 2020, 08:11:12 AM

The latest news is about the masks being a rudimentary "vaccine" - it might be that they filter just enough of the virus to let you assume small doses that give you immunity, which is the very premise of vaccination (inoculating small doses of a virus so that your body gets prepared to fight it).

What you are describing is Variolation, rather than vaccination, stemming from the pre vaccine days where material from smallpox pustules were deliberately introduced to scratches in the hopes of inducing a more moderate form of the disease. Vaccines work on quite different principles, and do not rely on small doses of unattenuated virus.

As for COVID, a literature search has revealed some opinion and perspective articles suggesting mask variolation as a possible mechanism, (this one for instance: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913) but there isn't any peer reviewed research that demonstrates it as an effect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 28, 2020, 11:16:18 AM

Respectful question from someone who isn't a virologist but has played one on TV (and stayed at a Holiday In Express within the last week):   Can that potentially explain what looks to be - empirically - that younger people are technically getting sicker at a higher rate, but seem to be getting "less sick" when they do?   My daughter lives in a triple at school, and one of her roommates, asymptomatic, tested positive.    So my kid and the other roommate got tested.  Daughter was negative, but other roommate was, largely asymptomatically (she had the basic symptoms, of a mild cold) tested positive.   My daughter - who is chronically asthmatic anyway (it's a running joke when we talk on the phone: "are you crying?") - may or may not be symptomatic but we're now waiting on the second test to come back.  That's a far cry from the story of Orbert's band-mate, for example.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on September 28, 2020, 12:24:17 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on September 28, 2020, 10:08:38 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on September 28, 2020, 08:11:12 AM

The latest news is about the masks being a rudimentary "vaccine" - it might be that they filter just enough of the virus to let you assume small doses that give you immunity, which is the very premise of vaccination (inoculating small doses of a virus so that your body gets prepared to fight it).

What you are describing is Variolation, rather than vaccination, stemming from the pre vaccine days where material from smallpox pustules were deliberately introduced to scratches in the hopes of inducing a more moderate form of the disease. Vaccines work on quite different principles, and do not rely on small doses of unattenuated virus.

As for COVID, a literature search has revealed some opinion and perspective articles suggesting mask variolation as a possible mechanism, (this one for instance: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913) but there isn't any peer reviewed research that demonstrates it as an effect.

I stand corrected then!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on September 28, 2020, 04:02:52 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 28, 2020, 11:16:18 AM

Respectful question from someone who isn't a virologist but has played one on TV (and stayed at a Holiday In Express within the last week):   Can that potentially explain what looks to be - empirically - that younger people are technically getting sicker at a higher rate, but seem to be getting "less sick" when they do?   My daughter lives in a triple at school, and one of her roommates, asymptomatic, tested positive.    So my kid and the other roommate got tested.  Daughter was negative, but other roommate was, largely asymptomatically (she had the basic symptoms, of a mild cold) tested positive.   My daughter - who is chronically asthmatic anyway (it's a running joke when we talk on the phone: "are you crying?") - may or may not be symptomatic but we're now waiting on the second test to come back.  That's a far cry from the story of Orbert's band-mate, for example.

Younger people are much more likely to be in places where there are large crowds, whereas older persons will spend more of their life at home in comparative isolation, and are therefore more likely to be exposed. However, when older people do get it, they will be battling the virus with a weaker immune system, so statistically more of them will fail to keep it in check.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on September 28, 2020, 04:59:14 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 28, 2020, 11:16:18 AM

Respectful question from someone who isn't a virologist but has played one on TV (and stayed at a Holiday In Express within the last week):   Can that potentially explain what looks to be - empirically - that younger people are technically getting sicker at a higher rate, but seem to be getting "less sick" when they do?   My daughter lives in a triple at school, and one of her roommates, asymptomatic, tested positive.    So my kid and the other roommate got tested.  Daughter was negative, but other roommate was, largely asymptomatically (she had the basic symptoms, of a mild cold) tested positive.   My daughter - who is chronically asthmatic anyway (it's a running joke when we talk on the phone: "are you crying?") - may or may not be symptomatic but we're now waiting on the second test to come back.  That's a far cry from the story of Orbert's band-mate, for example.

Stadler, that sounds pretty scary, I mean how would she NOT get it if the other two have it. Can you move her to off campus hotel for a couple of weeks?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 28, 2020, 07:22:53 PM

Quote from: TAC on September 28, 2020, 04:59:14 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 28, 2020, 11:16:18 AM

Respectful question from someone who isn't a virologist but has played one on TV (and stayed at a Holiday In Express within the last week):   Can that potentially explain what looks to be - empirically - that younger people are technically getting sicker at a higher rate, but seem to be getting "less sick" when they do?   My daughter lives in a triple at school, and one of her roommates, asymptomatic, tested positive.    So my kid and the other roommate got tested.  Daughter was negative, but other roommate was, largely asymptomatically (she had the basic symptoms, of a mild cold) tested positive.   My daughter - who is chronically asthmatic anyway (it's a running joke when we talk on the phone: "are you crying?") - may or may not be symptomatic but we're now waiting on the second test to come back.  That's a far cry from the story of Orbert's band-mate, for example.

Stadler, that sounds pretty scary, I mean how would she NOT get it if the other two have it. Can you move her to off campus hotel for a couple of weeks?

Between you and me, I'm petrified. Right now, she's okay because she's by herself; the other two have gone into isolation (though interestingly, for one, "isolation" is exactly that: a hotel room.  That's scary.). I must've texted her four times today "how'd you do?".   :). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on September 29, 2020, 05:04:28 AM

Dude... that's awful.  I can't begin to imagine what you're feeling.  I'm so thankful both jingle.kids' programs are 100% online, and our biggest fear is 'cabin fever' ... which is bad enough itself, but it ain't as life-threatening as COVID.

Hang tough bro.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on September 29, 2020, 05:17:14 AM

Stads, damn I'd be by myself right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 29, 2020, 06:56:02 AM

I appreciate the kind words; I've had to keep the stiff upper lip for the most part, for my daughter.   I think she's scared too, being away from home and not knowing, though she's like me and doesn't want to let on.   The ex doesn't help matters (she's pretty much called everyone except for Obama; of course there's only so much that can be done at this point and now she's starting to be more harm than good) and my wife is caring and concerned, but a little on the negative side as well.

Fingers crossed, and phone handy (waiting for the news).     

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on September 29, 2020, 11:44:07 AM

Many colleagues testing positive in the past few days, including one regularly interact with. Always keeping distance, since that's required, but I can feel the situation getting tenser with more people dropping out..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 29, 2020, 11:55:56 AM

...and seems like somewhere bettern CVS, Quest and Minute Clinic (don't know what that is), we're not sure where her test or the results are.   

Chain of custody, bitches. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on September 29, 2020, 12:04:02 PM

Looks like the epidemic is getting out of control in our capital region where only less than half of cases can be traced, and the amount of positive test results has tripled within the last week. Meanwhile in my city there's still less than 5 confirmed cases per week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 29, 2020, 01:26:22 PM

Yesterday in FL was our lowest single day new cases. 768 I think...close to that anyway. But, today we jumped up to over 3K. In my hospital we had two patients a couple days ago. That jumped up to 22. And, the ER waiting room was packed today for the first time in many weeks. I fear we hit the bottom and now we're ramping back up again. In 2 weeks we will see the effects of the bars opening up.

Man, it feels like this is NEVER going to end!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 29, 2020, 01:50:36 PM

A fourth vaccine has entered Phase 3 trials in the U.S.  There are now a total of 41 vaccines worldwide in Phase 3 trials.  They are getting closer.

The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people (include some here on DTF) have stated outright that they will not take the vaccine once it's approved.  This will hamper our species reaching full herd immunity.  But there are positive effects short of reaching full herd immunity.  There will be geographic areas which are effectively safe.  And of course those who take the vaccine, if it works for them without serious side effects, will be effectively safe for the time being.

I personally believe that it will never end; that is, it will not completely go away, just as the flu or the common cold will never completely go away.  Viruses will continue to mutate, and we will always be playing catch-up with the vaccines.  But the huge numbers, the ones you're talking about that bury the ER and overwhelm hospitals around the world will see some relief, hopefully considerable relief, once the vaccines are widely available.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on September 29, 2020, 02:33:46 PM

Quote from: Orbert on September 29, 2020, 01:50:36 PM

But the huge numbers, the ones you're talking about that bury the ER and overwhelm hospitals around the world will see some relief, hopefully considerable relief, once the vaccines are widely available.

I think they largely already are experiencing some relief, at least in this country.  Very few, if any, U.S. hospitals are overwhelmed to the point of being buried and not able to adjust, from what I have seen and heard (notwithstanding that the news continues to use the obligatory Scary Voice when reporting numbers every day).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 29, 2020, 02:40:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on September 29, 2020, 02:33:46 PM

Quote from: Orbert on September 29, 2020, 01:50:36 PM

But the huge numbers, the ones you're talking about that bury the ER and overwhelm hospitals around the world will see some relief, hopefully considerable relief, once the vaccines are widely available.

I think they largely already are experiencing some relief, at least in this country.  Very few, if any, U.S. hospitals are overwhelmed to the point of being buried and not able to adjust, from what I have seen and heard (notwithstanding that the news continues to use the obligatory Scary Voice when reporting numbers every day).

My local station (the only news I watch now) is like that.    "Disturbing new COVID milestone today; Over 200.   THOUSAND.  deaths nationwide.   For more on this, let's go to Alisha Maldonado in [some CT town that has nothing to do with the national numbers]."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:42:23 PM

I don't watch the news anymore. :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on September 29, 2020, 02:42:35 PM

Wisconsin is entering the danger zone, been getting big spikes the last week or so.  Health department imploring people to get their shit together.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on September 29, 2020, 02:44:47 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:42:23 PM

I don't watch the news anymore. :neverusethis:

I'm getting very close too brother The less I watch the better I feel.
.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 29, 2020, 02:50:33 PM

Quote from: emtee on September 29, 2020, 02:44:47 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:42:23 PM

I don't watch the news anymore. :neverusethis:

I'm getting very close too brother The less I watch the better I feel.
.

I'm already there.  Now, if we could just get the stupid election over with, won't have to see all the ridiculous campaign ads on every other channel.  :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 29, 2020, 02:54:30 PM

Quote from: emtee on September 29, 2020, 02:44:47 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:42:23 PM

I don't watch the news anymore. :neverusethis:

I'm getting very close too brother The less I watch the better I feel.
.

It's tangible.  I wasn't kidding in the P/R section when talked about the sort of vertigo I feel now with so much of the popular discussion. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:58:25 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 29, 2020, 02:54:30 PM

Quote from: emtee on September 29, 2020, 02:44:47 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:42:23 PM

I don't watch the news anymore. :neverusethis:

I'm getting very close too brother The less I watch the better I feel.
.

It's tangible.  I wasn't kidding in the P/R section when talked about the sort of vertigo I feel now with so much of the popular discussion.

That's exactly why I avoid the news and asked for my P/R posting privileges to be revoked - I'm actively trying to avoid the vast majority of political discussion or news to keep stress down. In fact I just defused a potential argument about ACAB with a good friend before this post. Not doing it. :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 29, 2020, 04:01:31 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:58:25 PM

Quote from: Stadler on September 29, 2020, 02:54:30 PM

Quote from: emtee on September 29, 2020, 02:44:47 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on September 29, 2020, 02:42:23 PM

I don't watch the news anymore. :neverusethis:

I'm getting very close too brother The less I watch the better I feel.
.

It's tangible.  I wasn't kidding in the P/R section when talked about the sort of vertigo I feel now with so much of the popular discussion.

That's exactly why I avoid the news and asked for my P/R posting privileges to be revoked - I'm actively trying to avoid the vast majority of political discussion or news to keep stress down. In fact I just defused a potential argument about ACAB with a good friend before this post. Not doing it. :P

Like Joshua said in the movie War Games.  "The only winning move is not to play."  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on September 29, 2020, 05:38:09 PM

Here we go.

"Disturbing new COVID milestone today."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on September 29, 2020, 06:01:16 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on September 29, 2020, 02:33:46 PM

Quote from: Orbert on September 29, 2020, 01:50:36 PM

But the huge numbers, the ones you're talking about that bury the ER and overwhelm hospitals around the world will see some relief, hopefully considerable relief, once the vaccines are widely available.

I think they largely already are experiencing some relief, at least in this country.  Very few, if any, U.S. hospitals are overwhelmed to the point of being buried and not able to adjust, from what I have seen and heard (notwithstanding that the news continues to use the obligatory Scary Voice when reporting numbers every day).

There's been some relief, true, but there are still spikes here and there, and that will continue for a while.  I'm talking about real relief, like a cure, except that this is a virus and thus there is no cure, only vaccines to try to prevent it, and treatments for those who inevitably get it.  We're getting closer on the vaccines, and developing better treatments as well, as we learn more about it.  I was just reacting to the (rhetorical?) question "When will it end?"  I don't think it will ever truly end, as in "go away completely".  Not like Polio or Hepatitis C or other diseases we've actually cured (recent antivax-inspired resurgences notwithstanding).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on October 01, 2020, 03:35:23 PM

The first diagnosed case was in January in Washington State. Many people had it then and didn't know. So, we have been wrestling with this now for 8 - 9 months.

So many people are struggling financially. So many businesses as well. And our elected leaders, so entrenched in their tribal positions, not wanting to give the appearance of caving and ceding an advantage to the opposition, refuse to come to an agreement on a stimulus. Shame on them!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on October 01, 2020, 04:20:42 PM

Quote from: emtee on October 01, 2020, 03:35:23 PM

The first diagnosed case was in January in Washington State. Many people had it then and didn't know. So, we have been wrestling with this now for 8 - 9 months.

So many people are struggling financially. So many businesses as well. And our elected leaders, so entrenched in their tribal positions, not wanting to give the appearance of caving and ceding an advantage to the opposition, refuse to come to an agreement on a stimulus. Shame on them!

It's truly disgusting. I got two good friends, both single moms who were laid off and can't get back to the workforce because of online learning and because the restaurant industry took such a massive hit, who are struggling hard. I'm really worried for both of them, and I'm sure there are cases like this all over the country.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 01, 2020, 05:24:43 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on September 29, 2020, 02:33:46 PM

Quote from: Orbert on September 29, 2020, 01:50:36 PM

But the huge numbers, the ones you're talking about that bury the ER and overwhelm hospitals around the world will see some relief, hopefully considerable relief, once the vaccines are widely available.

I think they largely already are experiencing some relief, at least in this country.  Very few, if any, U.S. hospitals are overwhelmed to the point of being buried and not able to adjust, from what I have seen and heard (notwithstanding that the news continues to use the obligatory Scary Voice when reporting numbers every day).

That would be good news. I think the coming months will be a very suspenseful period due to several factors. Part it being how the seasons (potentially) affect human immune systems (perform the best in summer, at least in western countries) and part of it influenza potentially joining the misery.

And offcourse human behavious during the holidays (lot's of traveling to indoor meetings in remote areas to meet families). This way the virus can reach areas that weren't really affected until now.

Offcourse none of this is a given or anything, just personal worries.



Unfortunately our numbers (Netherlands) are bad and at my work a lot of patients are coming in. Our area already transports patients to other areas and some healthcare services are shutting down temporarily to focus on covid. It is bad, as there are plenty of horror stories from the first wave at my work, hopefully it won't come to that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on October 01, 2020, 11:45:40 PM

My county is going on lockdown again starting Saturday. Numbers have been rising and the infection rate has been increasing. Over half the cases in my county are people under 30. The highest number of infected everyday is in that range.

Meanwhile, some dude in DC just came down with Covid. Guess he is a bigshot or something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on October 02, 2020, 01:44:55 AM

I'm not surprised. Gonna be interesting over the next 2 weeks of quarantine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on October 02, 2020, 07:58:38 AM

Minnesota has gone from consistently around 6000 active cases for most of the summer to 10000 basically since the start of the school year. It's mostly going people who are at lower risk thankfully, but still is a bad trend. I foresee going to back to full time distance learning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 02, 2020, 10:31:06 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 01, 2020, 11:45:40 PM

Meanwhile, some dude in DC just came down with Covid. Guess he is a bigshot or something.

Oh the irony......

But I would be shocked if anyone said they were surprised.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on October 02, 2020, 02:17:11 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 01, 2020, 11:45:40 PM

Meanwhile, some dude in DC just came down with Covid. Guess he is a bigshot or something.

It is what it is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on October 02, 2020, 02:51:10 PM

This virus gives no f*** who it hits.  If you tempt its fate, it will hit you eventually.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 02, 2020, 03:00:22 PM

Quote from: Snow Dog on October 02, 2020, 02:17:11 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 01, 2020, 11:45:40 PM

Meanwhile, some dude in DC just came down with Covid. Guess he is a bigshot or something.

It is what it is.

Just hit it with a disinfectant IV.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on October 02, 2020, 07:02:18 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on October 02, 2020, 07:58:38 AM

Minnesota has gone from consistently around 6000 active cases for most of the summer to 10000 basically since the start of the school year. It's mostly going people who are at lower risk thankfully, but still is a bad trend. I foresee going to back to full time distance learning.

What scares me is how the government is basing their decisions. The cases have been going higher as of late but so has testing. Like today there were 1,184 positive cases, but 31,075 tests. The positivity rate has been trending down. I just hope they don’t go back to shutting things down. I will give Minnesota credit, they don’t jump to rash decisions

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 03, 2020, 06:19:02 AM

A few days ago, the Premier of Ontario told the public 'if you want a test, go get one'.  So, a shit-ton of asymptomatic people got one for various reasons.  Now the testing facilities are drowning - 90k+ backlog of cases.  They're teetering on the edge of having samples be spoiled (3-day shelf life).  No one even knows if people whose sample was spoiled will be notified.  Strong likelihood they won't be, so people who potentially are positive won't be notified, and think they're in the clear.

Ontario has more daily positive cases than at any time in the spring, and this government is still not taking any significant measures beyond "encouraging" people to behave better.  Only yesterday did they institute a province-wide mask mandate - indoors when physical separating is not possible.   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on October 04, 2020, 05:51:28 PM

I really don't understand why you would want to get tested if you have no symptoms unless you knew you were exposed to someone who tested positive. Too big of a chance of a false positive, IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 04, 2020, 06:39:30 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on October 04, 2020, 05:51:28 PM

I really don't understand why you would want to get tested if you have no symptoms unless you knew you were exposed to someone who tested positive. Too big of a chance of a false positive, IMO.

For the most part, I agree, but to travel or maybe to take a job, showing proof of a negative test is kind of a thing right now in some situations. Also, having been in contact with a recent positive person is another reason to get a test even if you feel fine.

After just road tripping and having some of my first real interactions with random people (I had indoor dining and outdoor dining in Maine, sat inside a bar in Boston, stayed at 3 different hotels, had valet car service) makes me wonder if I could have picked it up. Granted myself and everyone other than the one bar patron took the precautions with wearing a mask, but just makes me wonder.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 05, 2020, 07:25:10 AM

The post above was my non-dramatic way of saying my daughter tested positive.   It was a clear chain:  boyfriend of one of her roommates, that roommate, the OTHER roommate, then her.   The boyfriend and the first roommate were asymptomatic.    The middle roommate lost her sense of taste, and had what you would call a 'mild cold' in any other year.    My daughter is largely asymptomatic (sniffles, but she has asthma and allergies and so basically sniffles ALL the time; it's a running joke between us when we talk on the phone:  "are you crying?").   

I can't speak to the boyfriend and first roommate, but the second roommate and my daughter are quarantining together, and neither has had a fever at all this entire time, even though that is one of the "quickie" screening methodologies.   

I get where you're coming from, Lordxizor, but I also see the other side.  I think there's an argument against worrying about the false positive; if one person falsely quarantines, it's not the end of the world.   It's the false negatives and the asymptomatic people spreading the virus unknowingly that we have to worry about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on October 07, 2020, 02:21:02 PM

Florida gives the NFL teams the all clear to fully stock their stadiums with fans. Dolphins say thanks, but no thanks. At least there is some common sense in Florida.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dolphins-reportedly-get-clearance-to-host-full-capacity-of-fans-at-stadium-but-will-stick-with-13000-fans-174413711.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on October 07, 2020, 02:24:32 PM

We jumped back up to 35 positives in our hospital. It was a short but enjoyable lull but here we go again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 07, 2020, 02:26:47 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 07, 2020, 02:21:02 PM

Florida gives the NFL teams the all clear to fully stock their stadiums with fans. Dolphins say thanks, but no thanks. At least there is some common sense in Florida.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dolphins-reportedly-get-clearance-to-host-full-capacity-of-fans-at-stadium-but-will-stick-with-13000-fans-174413711.html

The sport that is having the most trouble containing the virus amongst its players is the one opening to fans?

 :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 07, 2020, 02:27:46 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 07, 2020, 02:21:02 PM

Florida gives the NFL teams the all clear to fully stock their stadiums with fans. Dolphins say thanks, but no thanks. At least there is some common sense in Florida.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dolphins-reportedly-get-clearance-to-host-full-capacity-of-fans-at-stadium-but-will-stick-with-13000-fans-174413711.html

I don't understand how this makes sense.  At least they aren't going ahead with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on October 07, 2020, 02:50:08 PM

Remember, it's Florida. This decision is right in line with that state.

This will be another one of those stories on TV news where they say, "and here's another strange story out of, you guessed it, Florida". In this case, it's the politicians doing the stupid thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 07, 2020, 03:03:44 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 07, 2020, 02:50:08 PM

Remember, it's Florida. This decision is right in line with that state.

This will be another one of those stories on TV news where they say, "and here's another strange story out of, you guessed it, Florida". In this case, it's the politicians doing the stupid thing.

Yea, I get the "florida being florida" but even that makes no sense still  :lol Or is this just about making money on ticket sales?  Like if you can host a 50k person football game, there's no reason anything else should be shut down at all, but I'm guessing there's still no concerts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:27:56 AM

Living like this is pretty depressing. Every activity is just unsafe enough not to be worth the risk. The curve has been rising, then flat, then rising again all the time since I got back home, and my city is always the worst off. Not going anywhere except the store and the hiking spots I can reach on foot (because we're only encouraged to use public transport if we have to go to work) sucks, but I can't exactly do anything else in good conscience. With increased unemployment, people with much better resumes are out competing for the same dayjobs I am applying to, so there's only a very small chance I'll be able to actually get one. All of this should make me extra motivated to be productive and do something while I'm stuck at home until spring, but it's having the opposite effect on me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 09, 2020, 08:29:39 AM

I hear ya, Milena.  It is depressing as shit.  With the days getting shorter, temperatures getting colder, it ain't gonna be any better anytime soon.   :sadpanda:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on October 09, 2020, 08:30:48 AM

My town of 35,000 in Wisconsin has one of the highest positive rates in the U.S. at the moment.

Awesome.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 09, 2020, 08:31:54 AM

Not every activity has to be dangerous. Could be a great time to start reading some more. Exercise at home. Got a guitar sitting around? Pick it up. I know a lot of adults don't like to just sit around doing activities, but I mean, they're good for your mental health honestly especially in these sort of times. I'm almost 30 and I still color with markers and crayons when I want to seriously chill out. Just a thought.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:36:38 AM

When I'm at home, I just feel guilty that I'm not at my computer doing something useful. It's always there, looking at me. :|

I'm not surprised people are out partying and being irresponsible. If I had any friends here (and if I wasn't worried about my husband ending up in the hospital with the virus because he's in a few risk groups), I'd see them all the time, and if we had concerts, I'd go. I'm lucky that the types of social entertainment that are still going on (house parties, bars and restaurants) aren't that easily available or appealing to me, otherwise I'd be out there being a drunk dumbass.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 09, 2020, 08:41:45 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:27:56 AM

Living like this is pretty depressing. Every activity is just unsafe enough not to be worth the risk. The curve has been rising, then flat, then rising again all the time since I got back home, and my city is always the worst off. Not going anywhere except the store and the hiking spots I can reach on foot (because we're only encouraged to use public transport if we have to go to work) sucks, but I can't exactly do anything else in good conscience. With increased unemployment, people with much better resumes are out competing for the same dayjobs I am applying to, so there's only a very small chance I'll be able to actually get one. All of this should make me extra motivated to be productive and do something while I'm stuck at home until spring, but it's having the opposite effect on me.

I'm starting to get the blues and am definitely losing motivation. I started doing a lot of outdoor physical activity (lost 92lbs since last December) during Covid, and have played a shitload of golf this summer seeing as they were basically the only activities I could do. On my walk this morning (5:15 AM), the dog and I turned back after just a mile or so because I couldn't stop shivering. It's starting to get cold and I'm assuming this winter is going to end up being the most boring 3-4 months of my life, probably like that time I thought I had mono for a year. I hear you though on the not wanting to do anything even if it's open. The hobby shops around me are still racing, and will be continuing to do so inside once the cold fully sets in. I stopped by one of the tracks a few weeks ago, and the pits were packed to capacity with only 3 or 4 people wearing masks. I'm not playing that game. Fucking idiots if you ask me. I even emailed the owner and told him that I'd love to spend money down there and pay some race fees but won't be so long as there isn't a mask mandate. He responded by saying the mask mandate he had in place was keeping too many people away, and if he continued to enforce it, he'd have to shut down. I don't know if I believe him or not, but if he's telling the truth, that infuriates me. A bunch of fully grown men, congregating to play with remote control trucks, the majority of whom are hardcore gun owners and the outdoors type, throwing hissy fits about having to wear a mask inside the pits where people are basically on top of each other. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:49:08 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 09, 2020, 08:41:45 AM

It's starting to get cold and I'm assuming this winter is going to end up being the most boring 3-4 months of my life, probably like that time I thought I had mono for a year. I hear you though on the not wanting to do anything even if it's open. The hobby shops around me are still racing, and will be continuing to do so inside once the cold fully sets in. I stopped by one of the tracks a few weeks ago, and the pits were packed to capacity with only 3 or 4 people wearing masks. I'm not playing that game.

Yeah. I used to go to debates/discussions at the local library to improve my language skills. Now it's like, great, I can go to a closed space with people talking at each other for hours, where we all convince each other we're safe because we're 1m apart and we all cleaned our hands on the way in. Not worth it, I can just stay inside and crack open my grammar book or watch content in my target language... for seven months straight now... and at least six to go until it's open air weather again... yay.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 09, 2020, 09:19:04 AM

I've had the covid blues for a loooong time.  I still do, but taking a vacation and going somewhere (that was deemed safe) was a nice breathe of fresh air and made me feel much better internally. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 09, 2020, 10:59:25 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:27:56 AM

Living like this is pretty depressing. Every activity is just unsafe enough not to be worth the risk. The curve has been rising, then flat, then rising again all the time since I got back home, and my city is always the worst off. Not going anywhere except the store and the hiking spots I can reach on foot (because we're only encouraged to use public transport if we have to go to work) sucks, but I can't exactly do anything else in good conscience. With increased unemployment, people with much better resumes are out competing for the same dayjobs I am applying to, so there's only a very small chance I'll be able to actually get one. All of this should make me extra motivated to be productive and do something while I'm stuck at home until spring, but it's having the opposite effect on me.

I know that for me, the tide is turning on that second sentence.   I have no problem being alone or staying home, but I realized around July or so that that's only because I have periodic bursts - concerts, work travel - where I'm NOT alone and I'm NOT home.   So now with those gone, the pressure is building. I'm not suggesting I'm going to Spring Break in Lauderdale or anything, but I'm disappointed in myself for how seriously I'm considering a flight to Dallas to see my kid or Florida.  That would just be stupid at this point, but I'm almost thinking it might be necessary. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 09, 2020, 11:01:10 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 09, 2020, 08:31:54 AM

Not every activity has to be dangerous. Could be a great time to start reading some more. Exercise at home. Got a guitar sitting around? Pick it up. I know a lot of adults don't like to just sit around doing activities, but I mean, they're good for your mental health honestly especially in these sort of times. I'm almost 30 and I still color with markers and crayons when I want to seriously chill out. Just a thought.

Both my daughters - 19 and 22 - get a TON of relief from those books with the intricate designs to be colored.  You know the ones I mean; not Bugs Bunny coloring books, but the ones that look like fractals almost? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 09, 2020, 11:03:02 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:36:38 AM

When I'm at home, I just feel guilty that I'm not at my computer doing something useful. It's always there, looking at me. :|

I'm not surprised people are out partying and being irresponsible. If I had any friends here (and if I wasn't worried about my husband ending up in the hospital with the virus because he's in a few risk groups), I'd see them all the time, and if we had concerts, I'd go. I'm lucky that the types of social entertainment that are still going on (house parties, bars and restaurants) aren't that easily available or appealing to me, otherwise I'd be out there being a drunk dumbass.

Kind of where I was going in my previous reply to you.  There's something to be said for periodic "dumbass" (drunk or not).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 09, 2020, 11:04:38 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 09, 2020, 08:41:45 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:27:56 AM

Living like this is pretty depressing. Every activity is just unsafe enough not to be worth the risk. The curve has been rising, then flat, then rising again all the time since I got back home, and my city is always the worst off. Not going anywhere except the store and the hiking spots I can reach on foot (because we're only encouraged to use public transport if we have to go to work) sucks, but I can't exactly do anything else in good conscience. With increased unemployment, people with much better resumes are out competing for the same dayjobs I am applying to, so there's only a very small chance I'll be able to actually get one. All of this should make me extra motivated to be productive and do something while I'm stuck at home until spring, but it's having the opposite effect on me.

I'm starting to get the blues and am definitely losing motivation. I started doing a lot of outdoor physical activity (lost 92lbs since last December) during Covid, and have played a shitload of golf this summer seeing as they were basically the only activities I could do. On my walk this morning (5:15 AM), the dog and I turned back after just a mile or so because I couldn't stop shivering. It's starting to get cold and I'm assuming this winter is going to end up being the most boring 3-4 months of my life, probably like that time I thought I had mono for a year. I hear you though on the not wanting to do anything even if it's open. The hobby shops around me are still racing, and will be continuing to do so inside once the cold fully sets in. I stopped by one of the tracks a few weeks ago, and the pits were packed to capacity with only 3 or 4 people wearing masks. I'm not playing that game. Fucking idiots if you ask me. I even emailed the owner and told him that I'd love to spend money down there and pay some race fees but won't be so long as there isn't a mask mandate. He responded by saying the mask mandate he had in place was keeping too many people away, and if he continued to enforce it, he'd have to shut down. I don't know if I believe him or not, but if he's telling the truth, that infuriates me. A bunch of fully grown men, congregating to play with remote control trucks, the majority of whom are hardcore gun owners and the outdoors type, throwing hissy fits about having to wear a mask inside the pits where people are basically on top of each other.

WTF, bro.  That's world class.  SO happy for you; you should be proud. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 09, 2020, 11:39:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 09, 2020, 11:04:38 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 09, 2020, 08:41:45 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 08:27:56 AM

Living like this is pretty depressing. Every activity is just unsafe enough not to be worth the risk. The curve has been rising, then flat, then rising again all the time since I got back home, and my city is always the worst off. Not going anywhere except the store and the hiking spots I can reach on foot (because we're only encouraged to use public transport if we have to go to work) sucks, but I can't exactly do anything else in good conscience. With increased unemployment, people with much better resumes are out competing for the same dayjobs I am applying to, so there's only a very small chance I'll be able to actually get one. All of this should make me extra motivated to be productive and do something while I'm stuck at home until spring, but it's having the opposite effect on me.

I'm starting to get the blues and am definitely losing motivation. I started doing a lot of outdoor physical activity (lost 92lbs since last December) during Covid, and have played a shitload of golf this summer seeing as they were basically the only activities I could do. On my walk this morning (5:15 AM), the dog and I turned back after just a mile or so because I couldn't stop shivering. It's starting to get cold and I'm assuming this winter is going to end up being the most boring 3-4 months of my life, probably like that time I thought I had mono for a year. I hear you though on the not wanting to do anything even if it's open. The hobby shops around me are still racing, and will be continuing to do so inside once the cold fully sets in. I stopped by one of the tracks a few weeks ago, and the pits were packed to capacity with only 3 or 4 people wearing masks. I'm not playing that game. Fucking idiots if you ask me. I even emailed the owner and told him that I'd love to spend money down there and pay some race fees but won't be so long as there isn't a mask mandate. He responded by saying the mask mandate he had in place was keeping too many people away, and if he continued to enforce it, he'd have to shut down. I don't know if I believe him or not, but if he's telling the truth, that infuriates me. A bunch of fully grown men, congregating to play with remote control trucks, the majority of whom are hardcore gun owners and the outdoors type, throwing hissy fits about having to wear a mask inside the pits where people are basically on top of each other.

WTF, bro.  That's world class.  SO happy for you; you should be proud.

It's been a trip. The major redeeming factor with doing it during Covid (couldn't have done it without being on lockdown) is that I haven't really needed to spend money upgrading any of my wardrobe. With literally no societal obligations of any kind or dates to be had, it doesn't matter that my jeans are 10 sizes too big. I did raid JC Penny for a bunch of new t-shirts and boxers, but that's it. No office attire. No button downs. No new pants. It's been great. Instead of having to buy new stuff every 30lbs or so, I'm just waiting until the very last minute before having to reintegrate into society.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 09, 2020, 11:58:17 AM

I only have on pair of shorts that fit me, I bought them at the end of last summer before I went on vacation because I needed clothes that fit me, but didn't want to stock up because I didn't know what my belly would look like come this summer, but similarly since I didn't do anything this summer, I was able to get by on that same one pair of shorts for the summer.  I still need to get more clothes that fit me, but I'm in no rush.  I have enough for the two days I go into work and the one day I go out for groceries each week. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 09, 2020, 01:37:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on October 09, 2020, 11:03:02 AM

There's something to be said for periodic "dumbass" (drunk or not).

Hear hear. We're actually going to hop over by train to city we lived in from 2017 until Hell Year, to see 6 friends (three couples) at the end of the month. I'm mildly terrified at the prospect. But:

a) I can't crap my pants over walking into a train with a mask on, sitting down in closed cabin space with no one except the two of us and getting up after 8hrs! I'm more exposed while shopping for groceries.

b) Once that's done it's HIGHLY unlikely we'll get to socialize in person with anyone until this has blown over a bit. We barely know anyone here, and my husband's only meeting his new coworkers through Slack, so we're not gonna meet any new people either. If I'm gonna be living in indefinitely sad friendless zone, it would be cool to start counting down the days from the end of October, and not from when I got here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on October 12, 2020, 05:37:15 PM

A week after saying in here I wouldn't bother to get tested unless I knew I was exposed to Covid, I got tested yesterday. My kids caught a cold somewhere last week that got passed to me and I realized how much of a pain it is to have any Covid-like symptoms right now. I couldn't go into the office, my wife is pregnant and coming up on her due date in a couple weeks. It was just better to know one way or the other. Results came back negative today, which is good. Just a run of the mill cold.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 12, 2020, 06:34:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on October 12, 2020, 05:37:15 PM

A week after saying in here I wouldn't bother to get tested unless I knew I was exposed to Covid, I got tested yesterday. My kids caught a cold somewhere last week that got passed to me and I realized how much of a pain it is to have any Covid-like symptoms right now. I couldn't go into the office, my wife is pregnant and coming up on her due date in a couple weeks. It was just better to know one way or the other. Results came back negative today, which is good. Just a run of the mill cold.

Phew!  That must’ve been a huge relief!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on October 12, 2020, 08:10:02 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 12, 2020, 06:34:14 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on October 12, 2020, 05:37:15 PM

A week after saying in here I wouldn't bother to get tested unless I knew I was exposed to Covid, I got tested yesterday. My kids caught a cold somewhere last week that got passed to me and I realized how much of a pain it is to have any Covid-like symptoms right now. I couldn't go into the office, my wife is pregnant and coming up on her due date in a couple weeks. It was just better to know one way or the other. Results came back negative today, which is good. Just a run of the mill cold.

Phew!  That must’ve been a huge relief!

I was pretty confident it was just a cold based on the symptoms I was having, but yeah I was glad. Thinking about trying to have a baby while also being contagious with Covid sounded like a nightmare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 12, 2020, 08:27:59 PM

I think if you're sick, you basically owe it to those around you to get a test. This happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 13, 2020, 04:24:09 AM

We are doing badly, if our curve remains like this, an estimated 75% of regular healthcare could be shut down by the end of next month. New regulations will be announced this evening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 13, 2020, 04:28:42 AM

Italy is doing slightly better, and certainly better than France and Spain, but the curve is rising and so those regulations have already been implemented since yesterday: masks all the time while in the open, no school trips, bars and restaurant closing before and stopping standing service even sooner, no amateur sports (you know, buddies meeting up for soccer after work) and just a "strong reccomendation" to not have more than 6 people over for private parties.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 13, 2020, 07:20:47 AM

Quote from: TAC on October 12, 2020, 08:27:59 PM

I think if you're sick, you basically owe it to those around you to get a test. This happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

Agreed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on October 13, 2020, 08:02:20 AM

Numerous school districts in Wisconsin are going to virtual as our numbers are off the charts right now. Meanwhile the school district our kid is in, which started virtual, decided to go to the hybrid model last night.  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 13, 2020, 08:35:36 AM

Quote from: T-ski on October 13, 2020, 08:02:20 AM

Numerous school districts in Wisconsin are going to virtual as our numbers are off the charts right now. Meanwhile the school district our kid is in, which started virtual, decided to go to the hybrid model last night.  :facepalm:

I read Wisconsin is the new hot spot in the US.

In general, cases are pretty much rising all over the US.  Here in NJ, cases have been rising since Labor Day weekend, but deaths have stayed very low.  I understand the virus has mutated to be more contagious, but it may be less lethal as well.  At least that was a theory I read. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 13, 2020, 08:40:14 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 13, 2020, 08:35:36 AM

Quote from: T-ski on October 13, 2020, 08:02:20 AM

Numerous school districts in Wisconsin are going to virtual as our numbers are off the charts right now. Meanwhile the school district our kid is in, which started virtual, decided to go to the hybrid model last night.  :facepalm:

I read Wisconsin is the new hot spot in the US.

In general, cases are pretty much rising all over the US.  Here in NJ, cases have been rising since Labor Day weekend, but deaths have stayed very low.  I understand the virus has mutated to be more contagious, but it may be less lethal as well.  At least that was a theory I read.

It'd make sense for an organism like this. It's in Covid's interest to not rapidly kill everyone it infects. The less lethal and damaging it is, the better the chance it has to spread before its host dies or is treated in a hospital.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 13, 2020, 08:40:49 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 13, 2020, 08:35:36 AM

Quote from: T-ski on October 13, 2020, 08:02:20 AM

Numerous school districts in Wisconsin are going to virtual as our numbers are off the charts right now. Meanwhile the school district our kid is in, which started virtual, decided to go to the hybrid model last night.  :facepalm:

I read Wisconsin is the new hot spot in the US.

In general, cases are pretty much rising all over the US.  Here in NJ, cases have been rising since Labor Day weekend, but deaths have stayed very low.  I understand the virus has mutated to be more contagious, but it may be less lethal as well.  At least that was a theory I read.

That is HIGHLY doubtful. What's more likely is that medical personnel have gotten better at treating the virus. At the first of the year, it was trial and error but now that we have hard data to fall back on, the professionals know how to better treat patients.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 13, 2020, 08:42:11 AM

Also, a lot of frail and old people have already died and those who didn't learn the lesson about masks, distance and hands hygiene. The (negative) news are stolen by idiot negationists, but come on, those are relatively few. The rest of the majority has learnt the lesson and they do take precautions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 13, 2020, 08:48:39 AM

Anecdotal, of course, but I feel like I'm hearing of more people that aren't even needing medical care.   My daughter and her two roommates didn't spend even one minute in a hospital or medical center, and yet all three were positive.

F Trump (am I doing that right?) but he's right about one point (albeit for wrong reasons):  by increasing our testing, we're identifying more instances of it, including those instances where people are asymptomatic.  These are NOT people that would have been screened out in March or April.   Now, don't misunderstand this, I think this is good overall, since it gives us a broader understanding of the virus, it's spread, and it's impact. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 13, 2020, 08:50:03 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 13, 2020, 08:40:49 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 13, 2020, 08:35:36 AM

Quote from: T-ski on October 13, 2020, 08:02:20 AM

Numerous school districts in Wisconsin are going to virtual as our numbers are off the charts right now. Meanwhile the school district our kid is in, which started virtual, decided to go to the hybrid model last night.  :facepalm:

I read Wisconsin is the new hot spot in the US.

In general, cases are pretty much rising all over the US.  Here in NJ, cases have been rising since Labor Day weekend, but deaths have stayed very low.  I understand the virus has mutated to be more contagious, but it may be less lethal as well.  At least that was a theory I read.

That is HIGHLY doubtful. What's more likely is that medical personnel have gotten better at treating the virus. At the first of the year, it was trial and error but now that we have hard data to fall back on, the professionals know how to better treat patients.

Maybe but most people infected aren't going to the hospital and even being treated so I'm not sure that's the sole reason for lower deaths right now, but it definitely helps.

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 13, 2020, 08:42:11 AM

Also, a lot of frail and old people have already died and those who didn't learn the lesson about masks, distance and hands hygiene. The (negative) news are stolen by idiot negationists, but come on, those are relatively few. The rest of the majority has learnt the lesson and they do take precautions.

I've thought this as well and have stated before here that I've thought it's possible the virus killed the most vulnerable already, but that's not proven or anything just a thought really.  I don't recall reading that anywhere where as I have read a few articles including one from Fauci who stated the virus has mutated to be more contagious.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 13, 2020, 08:55:23 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 13, 2020, 08:48:39 AM

Anecdotal, of course, but I feel like I'm hearing of more people that aren't even needing medical care.   My daughter and her two roommates didn't spend even one minute in a hospital or medical center, and yet all three were positive.

F Trump (am I doing that right?) but he's right about one point (albeit for wrong reasons):  by increasing our testing, we're identifying more instances of it, including those instances where people are asymptomatic.  These are NOT people that would have been screened out in March or April.   Now, don't misunderstand this, I think this is good overall, since it gives us a broader understanding of the virus, it's spread, and it's impact.

And the more granular data showing upticks, even among less at-risk people, allows regional governments to put more individualistic measures in place rather than blanketly applying restrictions everywhere. It gives us a much better view of where we need to focus our efforts.   


"My daughter and her two roommates didn't spend even one minute in a hospital or medical center, and yet all three were positive."

It seems like you get it, but I can't emphasize enough how important it is for us to know this information. If people can recover at home without medical facilities, that's great, but more importantly, those people are now staying home and not putting more susceptible people at risk because they're aware they are at the very least a carrier.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 13, 2020, 09:02:28 AM

I'm 100% with you on that.   Without a test, without that boyfriend, my daughter would have UNKNOWINGLY (since she's not that kind of person; she's very much a "mask and distance" person) been potentially affecting those closest to her.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 13, 2020, 09:50:33 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 13, 2020, 08:55:23 AM

It seems like you get it, but I can't emphasize enough how important it is for us to know this information. If people can recover at home without medical facilities, that's great, but more importantly, those people are now staying home and not putting more susceptible people at risk because they're aware they are at the very least a carrier.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/65932600.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on October 13, 2020, 06:24:26 PM

In order to encourage people to actually stay home, my workplace is basically giving you up to 2 weeks off without using your PTO if you have any Covid-like symptoms. You have to call this medical hotline number which we normally use when there are minor workplace injuries, but now they assess your symptoms and give you a low, moderate, or high risk of having Covid. If you are moderate or high, you get tested and stay home until your symptoms are gone regardless of whether you tested positive or not.

So a guy who works for me does the right thing and went home yesterday when he felt cold-like symptoms coming on. He calls the hotline this morning and they've changed their rating system and he's called low risk even though a week ago having any symptoms at all was considered at least moderate risk. So he can't some into work because he has symptoms, but he doesn't qualify for the extra paid time off because he's considered low risk. So now my HR person and me are trying to figure out how the heck to get this guy the extra paid time off that he deserves since the company won't let him come in. What a cluster... It feels like we're all just flying by the seat of our pants here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on October 13, 2020, 06:46:34 PM

Quote from: Chino on October 13, 2020, 08:55:23 AM

It seems like you get it, but I can't emphasize enough how important it is for us to know this information. If people can recover at home without medical facilities, that's great, but more importantly, those people are now staying home and not putting more susceptible people at risk because they're aware they are at the very least a carrier.

Yup.  There was a pretty widespread outbreak at a college campus where a number of my friends have kids in dorms.  Many that we know firsthand, and many second-hand through the kids, got it.  But the school had them quarantine immediately, and they all ended up being fine themselves AND not spreading it further.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on October 15, 2020, 07:08:44 PM

The two main hospitals in my town are no longer taking inpatient patients. It is bad in Wisconsin right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on October 15, 2020, 07:32:52 PM

Numbers are up here in Illinois, too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 16, 2020, 12:58:16 AM

Europe isn't doing better either. Mini lockdowns and restrictions all over the place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 06:03:56 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 16, 2020, 12:58:16 AM

Europe isn't doing better either. Mini lockdowns and restrictions all over the place.

Here too.  Which is crazy, because people in the affected areas of the lockdown are just going to other jurisdictions to get into gyms and other businesses affected by the lockdown.   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 16, 2020, 06:37:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 06:03:56 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 16, 2020, 12:58:16 AM

Europe isn't doing better either. Mini lockdowns and restrictions all over the place.

Here too.  Which is crazy, because people in the affected areas of the lockdown are just going to other jurisdictions to get into gyms and other businesses affected by the lockdown.   :facepalm:

Kinda like in Liverpool - what happened the last day before the curfew about pubs came to be? everyone partying all together and drinking in the streets  ::)

Like I saw going around on social media - "We have to retire the expression avoid it like the plague because it turns out people don't do that"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on October 16, 2020, 06:40:20 AM

Fauci advises families not to gather for Thanksgiving especially when air travel is involved. I don't anticipate many people heeding that warning.

The fatigue is growing. Every attempt at normalcy creates additional spread. College, school, sporting events, family gatherings...you name it. The world bank said today that the world financial situation is dire.Two vaccine companies have halted trials. Millions of small businesses and even huge conglomerates are standing at the precipice. So are millions of people. Honestly, there isn't much to create positivity right now. As I feared early in this thread, this is shaping up to be one of the most impactful events in human history. Many things will be permanently reshaped when/if this thing is behind us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 07:12:31 AM

Quote from: emtee on October 16, 2020, 06:40:20 AM

Fauci advises families not to gather for Thanksgiving especially when air travel is involved. I don't anticipate many people heeding that warning.

The fatigue is growing. Every attempt at normalcy creates additional spread. College, school, sporting events, family gatherings...you name it. The world bank said today that the world financial situation is dire.Two vaccine companies have halted trials. Millions of small businesses and even huge conglomerates are standing at the precipice. So are millions of people. Honestly, there isn't much to create positivity right now. As I feared early in this thread, this is shaping up to be one of the most impactful events in human history. Many things will be permanently reshaped when/if this thing is behind us.

I can't remember if it was here, or in another article/interview I read (saw) recently.  Small pox is the only disease that humans have ever completely eradicated.  From the start of vaccinations (1958), to the eradication was over 20 years.

This thing won't be behind us for decades.  Humans are going to have to find better ways of living *with* it, without it directly or indirectly destroying humanity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 16, 2020, 07:45:58 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 07:12:31 AM

This thing won't be behind us for decades.  Humans are going to have to find better ways of living *with* it, without it directly or indirectly destroying humanity.

Maybe this could be a driver to essentially force people to take better care of themselves. I know we've seen/read the random case where the perfectly healthy Mom/Dad/Teenager etc etc has died from Covid but those cases are extremely rare. Most of the deaths there have been underlying issues of obesity and the diseases associated with it like diabetes, cardiac disease, COPD etc etc that are complicated by Covid. Maybe this will help shape peoples decisions as far as health choices? Maybe not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 08:01:32 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 16, 2020, 07:45:58 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 07:12:31 AM

This thing won't be behind us for decades.  Humans are going to have to find better ways of living *with* it, without it directly or indirectly destroying humanity.

Maybe this could be a driver to essentially force people to take better care of themselves. I know we've seen/read the random case where the perfectly healthy Mom/Dad/Teenager etc etc has died from Covid but those cases are extremely rare. Most of the deaths there have been underlying issues of obesity and the diseases associated with it like diabetes, cardiac disease, COPD etc etc that are complicated by Covid. Maybe this will help shape peoples decisions as far as health choices? Maybe not.

Considering putting on a mask has been a challenge for many, I don't see the masses making this change for the better of themselves. 

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 07:12:31 AM

I can't remember if it was here, or in another article/interview I read (saw) recently.  Small pox is the only disease that humans have ever completely eradicated.  From the start of vaccinations (1958), to the eradication was over 20 years.

This thing won't be behind us for decades.  Humans are going to have to find better ways of living *with* it, without it directly or indirectly destroying humanity.

Yea, it's not going away anytime soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 16, 2020, 08:03:05 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 08:01:32 AM

Considering putting on a mask has been a challenge for many, I don't see the masses making this change for the better of themselves. 

Yeah.....true. Which is sad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 16, 2020, 08:52:33 AM

I read somewhere recently that we that the return to normalcy won't happen until June/July 2021. That's with a vaccine of course and normalcy being defined as interaction with people (concerts etc..)

The number of cases in my small county have doubled the last 2 weeks. And they keep stealing political signs out of people's yards! People suck..... >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 16, 2020, 08:55:02 AM

Yeah...

This Virus is proof, humans don't have as much control of the world as we think.

So are we willing to sacrifice our livelihood to be "safe" from the virus?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 16, 2020, 09:13:42 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 16, 2020, 08:55:02 AM

So are we willing to sacrifice our livelihood to be "safe" from the virus?

Certain people may have to sacrifice their livelihoods more than others - those in entertainment industries, etc.  it's kind of up to them to figure out how to earn money, the same as anyone.  I'm sure plenty of people have changed careers or figured things out over the last 7 months.

The problem to me is that people don't want to make other sacrifices - keeping socially distant, giving up certain traveling or partying, or not gathering at family parties.  It's frustrating to see how my family has sacrificed and continues to sacrifice, yet others can't stay out of crowded bars to see cover bands.  Just this week, my wife's extended family started planning the big family Christmas party, where 30+ people pack into someone's small house.  It took two other family members to remind everyone that some people have health issues that make it unsafe for them to attend and the family had to be convinced to not plan a gathering this year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 09:30:11 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 16, 2020, 09:13:42 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 16, 2020, 08:55:02 AM

So are we willing to sacrifice our livelihood to be "safe" from the virus?

Certain people may have to sacrifice their livelihoods more than others - those in entertainment industries, etc.  it's kind of up to them to figure out how to earn money, the same as anyone.  I'm sure plenty of people have changed careers or figured things out over the last 7 months.

The problem to me is that people don't want to make other sacrifices - keeping socially distant, giving up certain traveling or partying, or not gathering at family parties.  It's frustrating to see how my family has sacrificed and continues to sacrifice, yet others can't stay out of crowded bars to see cover bands.  Just this week, my wife's extended family started planning the big family Christmas party, where 30+ people pack into someone's small house.  It took two other family members to remind everyone that some people have health issues that make it unsafe for them to attend and the family had to be convinced to not plan a gathering this year.

It's stories like this that convince me humanity is doomed.  I almost long for a Matrix-like existence.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 09:32:07 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 16, 2020, 08:52:33 AM

I read somewhere recently that we that the return to normalcy won't happen until June/July 2021. That's with a vaccine of course and normalcy being defined as interaction with people (concerts etc..)

The number of cases in my small county have doubled the last 2 weeks. And they keep stealing political signs out of people's yards! People suck..... >:(

Summer of 21 honestly doesn't even look good so far.  Even with a vaccine, I just don't have a lot of confidence right now.  Some articles I read said a vaccine may only be 50% effective.  That's not going to stop the virus from spreading especially when there's so many anti-vaxxers here too.  Some articles I read also think heard immunity won't happen because the virus will mutate and anti-bodies don't last long enough.  Who knows, but I definitely do not feel confident on things coming back to normal even in 2021 at this point unless there's some breakthrough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 09:35:10 AM

Same.  Even if a vaccine was available tomorrow, there's no logistical possibility of even producing/distributing/administering the vaccine to 10s/100s of millions, let alone the billions that ultimately need it for the world to get back to "normalcy".  Then factor in the 10s/100s of millions that won't get it (either anti-vaxx, or just plain not wanting v1.0 of something like this).  I mean, how many Apple users updated to iOS 14.0 straight away?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 09:48:59 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 16, 2020, 09:13:42 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 16, 2020, 08:55:02 AM

So are we willing to sacrifice our livelihood to be "safe" from the virus?

Certain people may have to sacrifice their livelihoods more than others - those in entertainment industries, etc.  it's kind of up to them to figure out how to earn money, the same as anyone.  I'm sure plenty of people have changed careers or figured things out over the last 7 months.

The problem to me is that people don't want to make other sacrifices - keeping socially distant, giving up certain traveling or partying, or not gathering at family parties.  It's frustrating to see how my family has sacrificed and continues to sacrifice, yet others can't stay out of crowded bars to see cover bands.  Just this week, my wife's extended family started planning the big family Christmas party, where 30+ people pack into someone's small house.  It took two other family members to remind everyone that some people have health issues that make it unsafe for them to attend and the family had to be convinced to not plan a gathering this year.

Philosophical question here:   why is this all of a sudden bad?   We can list examples of people either we know of or have heard of that have bucked convention, have refused to make the same level of sacrifices that the majority of us have, and we've moved on.  I recognize that the immediate answer is "but people DIE!", and I get that, but something about that answer doesn't really ring true to me.  "Death" - to others or self - hasn't really been a real hinderance in the past, nor has the "cost" to society.  Why would we expect that to be the case now?

If someone says "screw it, YOLO" and foresakes marriage and a job and decides to follow The Dead around the country dosing LSD and banging hippy chicks, is it THAT much different than saying "I'm not letting this virus control my day-to-day"?   As long as everyone involved is eyes-wide-open, I'm not sure what the difference is, even WITH "death" as a possibility.  If my family wants to meet for T-Giving, I can always stay home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 16, 2020, 10:00:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 09:48:59 AM

Philosophical question here:   why is this all of a sudden bad?   We can list examples of people either we know of or have heard of that have bucked convention, have refused to make the same level of sacrifices that the majority of us have, and we've moved on.  I recognize that the immediate answer is "but people DIE!", and I get that, but something about that answer doesn't really ring true to me.  "Death" - to others or self - hasn't really been a real hinderance in the past, nor has the "cost" to society.  Why would we expect that to be the case now?

If someone says "screw it, YOLO" and foresakes marriage and a job and decides to follow The Dead around the country dosing LSD and banging hippy chicks, is it THAT much different than saying "I'm not letting this virus control my day-to-day"?   As long as everyone involved is eyes-wide-open, I'm not sure what the difference is, even WITH "death" as a possibility.  If my family wants to meet for T-Giving, I can always stay home.

Because I feel that it's just prolonging the length of the pandemic.  Plain and simple.  I feel like if people really put an effort into this, then we'd be at a better place right now in this country.  Maybe I'm wrong - some European countries with hard lockdowns are doing bad again.  But having so many people disregarding basic guidelines to try and stay healthy has really bothered me.  I'm not going to debate it - it's just how I feel.  I studied health in college and i believe that certain things like public health transcend politics, and society could come together for the greater good. 

And my family would not have attended a big Christmas party.  We already declined a graduation party from that same side of the family a few months ago.  It just drives me crazy that our governor and health department have flat out said that these family gatherings are continuing the spread the virus and so many people thumb their noses at the information because of the governor's political affiliation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 16, 2020, 10:17:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 09:48:59 AM

If someone says "screw it, YOLO" and foresakes marriage and a job and decides to follow The Dead around the country dosing LSD and banging hippy chicks, is it THAT much different than saying "I'm not letting this virus control my day-to-day"?   As long as everyone involved is eyes-wide-open, I'm not sure what the difference is, even WITH "death" as a possibility.  If my family wants to meet for T-Giving, I can always stay home.

There's a difference - the guy that goes on a finding himself tour does not harm anyone except the spouse he leaves at the altar or the occasional girl he sweet-talks into a meaningless one night stand while she wanted more. Someone who catches the virus passes it to someone else who passes it to someone else who passes it to an old and/or frail relative of mine who dies from it. That's the difference.

I can't lock away in a bunker forever and ever my old parents because they are potentially at risk. THEY need to live their life as well, precautions only take you so far, a contagion is a missed wash of hands or a trusted person talking nearby away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 11:04:46 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 16, 2020, 10:00:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 09:48:59 AM

Philosophical question here:   why is this all of a sudden bad?   We can list examples of people either we know of or have heard of that have bucked convention, have refused to make the same level of sacrifices that the majority of us have, and we've moved on.  I recognize that the immediate answer is "but people DIE!", and I get that, but something about that answer doesn't really ring true to me.  "Death" - to others or self - hasn't really been a real hinderance in the past, nor has the "cost" to society.  Why would we expect that to be the case now?

If someone says "screw it, YOLO" and foresakes marriage and a job and decides to follow The Dead around the country dosing LSD and banging hippy chicks, is it THAT much different than saying "I'm not letting this virus control my day-to-day"?   As long as everyone involved is eyes-wide-open, I'm not sure what the difference is, even WITH "death" as a possibility.  If my family wants to meet for T-Giving, I can always stay home.

Because I feel that it's just prolonging the length of the pandemic.  Plain and simple.  I feel like if people really put an effort into this, then we'd be at a better place right now in this country.  Maybe I'm wrong - some European countries with hard lockdowns are doing bad again.  But having so many people disregarding basic guidelines to try and stay healthy has really bothered me.  I'm not going to debate it - it's just how I feel.  I studied health in college and i believe that certain things like public health transcend politics, and society could come together for the greater good. 

And my family would not have attended a big Christmas party.  We already declined a graduation party from that same side of the family a few months ago.  It just drives me crazy that our governor and health department have flat out said that these family gatherings are continuing the spread the virus and so many people thumb their noses at the information because of the governor's political affiliation.

Look, I'm with you.  Read my posts in the P/R section about our divisiveness.  If there's a will there's a way.  I get it and I personally agree, but at the heart of this is that there are a VAST majority of people in this country that don't give a crap. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 11:08:42 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 16, 2020, 10:17:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 09:48:59 AM

If someone says "screw it, YOLO" and foresakes marriage and a job and decides to follow The Dead around the country dosing LSD and banging hippy chicks, is it THAT much different than saying "I'm not letting this virus control my day-to-day"?   As long as everyone involved is eyes-wide-open, I'm not sure what the difference is, even WITH "death" as a possibility.  If my family wants to meet for T-Giving, I can always stay home.

There's a difference - the guy that goes on a finding himself tour does not harm anyone except the spouse he leaves at the altar or the occasional girl he sweet-talks into a meaningless one night stand while she wanted more. Someone who catches the virus passes it to someone else who passes it to someone else who passes it to an old and/or frail relative of mine who dies from it. That's the difference.

I can't lock away in a bunker forever and ever my old parents because they are potentially at risk. THEY need to live their life as well, precautions only take you so far, a contagion is a missed wash of hands or a trusted person talking nearby away.

In my original post:  "I recognize that the immediate answer is "but people DIE!"".   As I said, I'm with you, but I'm trying to understand, because it seems like a deeper problem than just "COVID" or "death".   I deeply believe that people ought to be able to make their own path in this world, and we - as individuals - can only control ourselves, but I also recognize a need for societal guidelines.   Given that, though, many of the same people yelling "put a mask on!" are the same people that are so strident at fueling our political divisiveness, which in my view is as deadly, long term, as COVID (since there's no "vaccine" for partisanship on the horizon).  Given that, there are plenty of people that don't give a shit about their health, generally, but now are making this an issue.   It's a conundrum to me, and I'm asking why. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 16, 2020, 11:34:26 AM

People are not saints, they can have blind spots or being more sensitive to certain issues than others. We are not perfect, you can find people that give substantial charity to the poor but don't pick up their own thrash from the sidewalk (random example of course).

The point is, we're all in this together, and as Grappler said, certain things should trascend politics. We get out of this together and one would think that the scare of having problems to breathe and needing to lie down 8 hours in ICU (while you couldn't even attend the funeral of your own grandma) would be enough but we're evidently wrong about it.

The Cold War was cold because of the concept of mutual assured destruction - we'd probably need to remember that, we're all together on our only home, this little planet. Something that happened in China reached the entire world in weeks. If this diidn't give us unity, probably not even an alien invasion will.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:25:25 PM

My company announced today that WFH will continue until June 2021 now.  No surprise, but these dates just keep getting pushed back.  At some point, I think they will say many aren't going to be required to go back to the office.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 02:29:40 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:25:25 PM

My company announced today that WFH will continue until June 2021 now.  No surprise, but these dates just keep getting pushed back.  At some point, I think they will say many aren't going to be required to go back to the office.

We have variable attendance at sites, depending on job description, but for the most part we're not going back in full force until 2021. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:30:09 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:25:25 PM

My company announced today that WFH will continue until June 2021 now.  No surprise, but these dates just keep getting pushed back.  At some point, I think they will say many aren't going to be required to go back to the office.

Hey Cram, if you don't mind.. IIRC, you did a lot of travelling to set up systems, right? How has your actual job changed?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:37:57 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:30:09 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:25:25 PM

My company announced today that WFH will continue until June 2021 now.  No surprise, but these dates just keep getting pushed back.  At some point, I think they will say many aren't going to be required to go back to the office.

Hey Cram, if you don't mind.. IIRC, you did a lot of travelling to set up systems, right? How has your actual job changed?

Yea, no travel so it's actually leaving our overseas datacenters in a very bad position.  We can't really do much work in them, so all our plans for upgrades got pushed back till next year.  The buildings that host our data centers do offer hourly support, its not cheap though.  We use it for critical issues only, but I've worked with the germans quite a bit over the summer on some projects that we were able to get done just super super slowly.

We have an office in Boulder CO, so there's a few people we've been asking to occasionally go into our Denver datacenter to work with us.  That's been working fairly well and those two guys have been crucial to helping us complete projects and keep things alive there.  But it's slow progress, these are the things I do on my WFH days.  Coordinate stuff with the people who are physically in the places I would normally travel to.

Our amsterdam data center is a disaster though, working remotely with Dutch support has been really bad and troublesome.  We had a job opening to hire someone but the company put a freeze on hiring.  We are trying to work around it by getting a full time contractor, but so far, that hasn't happened yet.  The amount of issues that need to be fixed keep adding up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Have you been working on your Indian accent? ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:50:48 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Have you been working on your Indian accent? ;D

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat. Just doin the needful

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:52:53 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:50:48 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Have you been working on your Indian accent? ;D

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat. Just doin the needful

It just seems like everytime I call a data center, I get India.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:53:43 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:52:53 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:50:48 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Have you been working on your Indian accent? ;D

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat. Just doin the needful

It just seems like everytime I call a data center, I get India.

I think you are thinking of a "call center" there's not many actual people in a data center, just computers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:56:32 PM

TACnology! :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on October 16, 2020, 03:05:10 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 16, 2020, 09:35:10 AM

Same.  Even if a vaccine was available tomorrow, there's no logistical possibility of even producing/distributing/administering the vaccine to 10s/100s of millions, let alone the billions that ultimately need it for the world to get back to "normalcy".  Then factor in the 10s/100s of millions that won't get it (either anti-vaxx, or just plain not wanting v1.0 of something like this).  I mean, how many Apple users updated to iOS 14.0 straight away?

I did.  Though, if I'm honest, it's only because I just want to get rid of that brief lag after I enter my code on my iPhone and it doesn't stop until that update was installed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 03:07:13 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:56:32 PM

TACnology! :facepalm:

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 16, 2020, 03:14:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:53:43 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:52:53 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:50:48 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Have you been working on your Indian accent? ;D

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat. Just doin the needful

It just seems like everytime I call a data center, I get India.

I think you are thinking of a "call center" there's not many actual people in a data center, just computers.

Good Lord, I can't tell you how I dreaded calling support when I was a server admin because while the Indians were talented, their accent turned a 30 minute phone call into a 4 hour phone call. I'm not trying to be mean but holy fuck it was brutal!  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 16, 2020, 03:39:00 PM

Quote from: Stadler on October 16, 2020, 09:48:59 AM

If someone says "screw it, YOLO" and foresakes marriage and a job and decides to follow The Dead around the country dosing LSD and banging hippy chicks, is it THAT much different than saying "I'm not letting this virus control my day-to-day"?   As long as everyone involved is eyes-wide-open, I'm not sure what the difference is, even WITH "death" as a possibility.

Well, imagine if the guy doing that could give you all his STDs just by coughing in your direction at the grocery store.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on October 17, 2020, 06:24:22 PM

Quote from: Grappler on October 16, 2020, 09:13:42 AM

Just this week, my wife's extended family started planning the big family Christmas party, where 30+ people pack into someone's small house.  It took two other family members to remind everyone that some people have health issues that make it unsafe for them to attend and the family had to be convinced to not plan a gathering this year.

This may sound cold-hearted, but, while people had a good point about the size and nature of the gathering, couldn't your wife's family plan a smaller party with those who felt comfortable attending? Maybe the elderly and those with health issues should remain isolated, while the others can get together in a smaller group?

The problem with saying "we are all in this together" is that we aren't. Some people are able to work from home, some jobs are considered "essential." Other people are out of work, others have their businesses shut down, and have lost their life savings. The virus can wreck and kill some people, and others will be fine in a few days. We are not all being affected equally, which makes it harder to address it equally.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 17, 2020, 07:28:08 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on October 17, 2020, 06:24:22 PM

Quote from: Grappler on October 16, 2020, 09:13:42 AM

Just this week, my wife's extended family started planning the big family Christmas party, where 30+ people pack into someone's small house.  It took two other family members to remind everyone that some people have health issues that make it unsafe for them to attend and the family had to be convinced to not plan a gathering this year.

This may sound cold-hearted, but, while people had a good point about the size and nature of the gathering, couldn't your wife's family plan a smaller party with those who felt comfortable attending? Maybe the elderly and those with health issues should remain isolated, while the others can get together in a smaller group?

The problem with saying "we are all in this together" is that we aren't. Some people are able to work from home, some jobs are considered "essential." Other people are out of work, others have their businesses shut down, and have lost their life savings. The virus can wreck and kill some people, and others will be fine in a few days. We are not all being affected equally, which makes it harder to address it equally.

That's exactly what will happen.  Everyone  will likely celebrate with their immediate families.  We will get together with my in-laws and brother/sister in law and all of our kids.  Probably 11 or 12 people total, whom we all trust and are comfortable being around.  Most of the adults will try to social distance.  The rest of the family will do the same with their parents/grandparents, etc.  So it will probably be a number of smaller parties. 

What I was talking about was the big, giant family party, where EVERYONE on that side of the family gets together.  Many of those individuals follow particular political beliefs regarding the virus, and may not subscribe to mask wearing and social distancing.  It's difficult for my wife and I to trust being around some of them this year, and it's ok.  We've skipped the party for the last year or two already due to family drama and just not wanting to be around them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 17, 2020, 07:44:19 PM

We hold a Christmas Eve open house every year. We people come and go, but we'll typically max out at about 25 people in the house at one time. We haven't even started to talk about this year. It's just my wife's family here, and they haven't yet figured out Thanksgiving.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on October 17, 2020, 07:46:40 PM

Good plan. I hope during the holidays families can make reasoned decisions as you have. We need to consider who we spend our time with. It's just not reasonable we all don't leave our houses. It is unfortunate but we have to evaluate for ourselves who we wish to spend our quality time with based on the decisions they are making.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 18, 2020, 03:13:00 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on October 17, 2020, 06:24:22 PM

The problem with saying "we are all in this together" is that we aren't. Some people are able to work from home, some jobs are considered "essential." Other people are out of work, others have their businesses shut down, and have lost their life savings. The virus can wreck and kill some people, and others will be fine in a few days. We are not all being affected equally, which makes it harder to address it equally.

That's why we owe to each other to all row in the same direction. I'm one of the lucky ones, I'm working from home, I didn't lose a penny over the virus - heck, I even saved some because I no longer take the subway. I'm trying to do my part, I'm not always going around, I wear the mask and deliberately avoid every single person that comes my way, to the point that probably I'm overdoing it because you don't catch the virus by a random stranger that, while being silent, walks you by for less of a second... still, I'm staying away from *everyone*

If I don't get the virus the few family people I interact with don't get it, and if they don't get it, they don't give it to someone else, and those someone else don't give it to someone else still and so on. I like a saying that goes "No drop believes to be responsable for the flood", well, if we all don't spread our droplets around, the chain of contagion ends and those people who are suffering economically from it will no longer have their shops closed.

Also, we all need to go and see concerts in 2021 so we'd all better stand united because there is no way in hell I'm gonna miss Iron Maiden in summer 2021, let's all be prepared in time  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 18, 2020, 05:30:38 AM

I agree wholeheartedly 100% with Mirror's post above.  Maybe it's because I'm not a terribly social person to begin with, but I just don't see the risk/reward benefit of getting together with large(ish) crowds.  I'd rather make the mistake of being overly cautious, than (what could be) the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 18, 2020, 05:42:34 AM

Same. Sometimes I think "okay, so what if we catch it, if this is gonna go on for a while I can't be expected not to catch something as contagious as the freaking flu for another year or however long it will take for vaccinations to be available", but then I remember all the cases I've heard of young healthy people just dropping dead of this thing and I freeze.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on October 18, 2020, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:50:48 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Have you been working on your Indian accent? ;D

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat.Just doin the needful

At my job there is always so much needful that needs to kindly be done :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 18, 2020, 08:10:06 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 18, 2020, 05:42:34 AM

Same. Sometimes I think "okay, so what if we catch it, if this is gonna go on for a while I can't be expected not to catch something as contagious as the freaking flu for another year or however long it will take for vaccinations to be available", but then I remember all the cases I've heard of young healthy people just dropping dead of this thing and I freeze.

That's how inject fear. How many young people have actually dropped dead, like they say. I could see it in China because their air is really bad and in turn their health and lungs are bad, which would cause a person to drop dead from lack of oxygen and you can't tell because they have a mask on.

Our cases are rising again. Doesn't surprise me as Flu season is here, and allergy season as well. Sucks for me because my allergies hit my sinuses. So our magnificent govener, implemented a no visiting other states, yet other states are still allowed here. And gatherings of people no more than 5 ( even lower than her usual 10) can be held. But we can still eat inside.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 18, 2020, 10:32:22 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on October 18, 2020, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 16, 2020, 02:50:48 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 16, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Have you been working on your Indian accent? ;D

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat.Just doin the needful

At my job there is always so much needful that needs to kindly be done :lol

And they'll revert back next week, amirite?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 18, 2020, 03:14:55 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 18, 2020, 08:10:06 AM

That's how inject fear. How many young people have actually dropped dead, like they say.

Even if only 1 out of 100000 young people end up croaking, I'm just about unlucky enough to be one of them  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 18, 2020, 03:37:55 PM

Offcourse the chance of dying is slim if you are young. Do keep in mind the chance of having significant/permanent damage (neurological/cardiovascular/respiratory) is probably way higher than dying. Here, persistent health issues seem to be a fairly common problem, even among people in their early 30's.

In general I think if you have the chance to prevent infection and if there truly is a vaccine in sight, it is best to keep safe for the time being. We don't know what the long term complications of covid are or can be. Who knows, the virus attacks basically the entire body and has been shown to leave a lot of damage in variety of organs.

I agree you shouldn't panic or live in fear, but there is a huge amount of space between totally freaking out and sitting scared at home or taking basic precautions and alter your lifestyle for the time being. If more people did the latter rather than not giving a fuck, I really do believe we would be in a better place as society right now, in my country (allowing smaller scale events, bars to stay open etc.).

And what should at least somewhat scare anyone is basic healthcare shutting down. In our country an official estimate was that if we keep out current trajectory, 75% of regular healthcare could have to shut down. That is a very bad scenario and will do a lot more damage than just the bad covid cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 19, 2020, 09:39:15 AM

So my coworker and I rotate days we go in because we share an office and being there together pretty much breaks social distancing rules.... well on Thursday he said he was off on Monday so I came in today, not only was he there, but he had three visitors (reps, not like random people) in the office, all over my desk and none wearing masks.  I was like WTF? and he said he meant Monday of next week (I found the quote, he fucked it up as he no where implied it was in TWO weeks) and I walked out and left, specifically saying this didn't seem safe.  I wrote a note to my boss (who is on vacation) just now.  Part of me feels like a bitch, but I'm livid for being put in that situation.  The other part that bothers me so much is if he arranged for these reps to come in, why didn't he let me know that as well, like even  if he didn't expect me to show up, the fact all these people were going to be there should be something I am aware of. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 19, 2020, 09:48:42 AM

I would have done the same thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 19, 2020, 10:33:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 19, 2020, 09:48:42 AM

I would have done the same thing.

Same.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 19, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

Don't worry about it Cram - there is nothing wrong with advising a boss about a coworker that isn't adhering to protocols. 

My 5-year old daughter tested negative.  We took her to the doctor last week since she was complaining of earaches and she's been sniffling for weeks.  The doctor said it's likely allergies (mine have been awful this year), but they gave her a COVID test to rule it out.  She was very brave and handled it as well as a 5 year old can.  She may be coming down with a cold, but at least we know it isn't anything more serious.  We weren't worried about the results, but it's still a weird mental game of "what if" and trying to figure out all of the places she or my family have been if we had to deal with contract tracing after a positive result. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on October 20, 2020, 07:39:48 AM

Just saw a guy on the news this morning announcing he is moving to Indiana due to no school sports in Illinois. Called the politicians a bunch of scaredy-cats. He says that kids being able to participate in sports is more important than the death count.  >:(

Clearly, he is one of those obnoxious a-holes at kids games that you just want to punch out. I say good-riddance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 20, 2020, 07:58:50 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 19, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

Don't worry about it Cram - there is nothing wrong with advising a boss about a coworker that isn't adhering to protocols. 

My 5-year old daughter tested negative.  We took her to the doctor last week since she was complaining of earaches and she's been sniffling for weeks.  The doctor said it's likely allergies (mine have been awful this year), but they gave her a COVID test to rule it out.  She was very brave and handled it as well as a 5 year old can.  She may be coming down with a cold, but at least we know it isn't anything more serious.  We weren't worried about the results, but it's still a weird mental game of "what if" and trying to figure out all of the places she or my family have been if we had to deal with contract tracing after a positive result.

Happy to hear that she's negative. It's bad enough watching young children be sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 08:03:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 20, 2020, 07:58:50 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 19, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

Don't worry about it Cram - there is nothing wrong with advising a boss about a coworker that isn't adhering to protocols. 

My 5-year old daughter tested negative.  We took her to the doctor last week since she was complaining of earaches and she's been sniffling for weeks.  The doctor said it's likely allergies (mine have been awful this year), but they gave her a COVID test to rule it out.  She was very brave and handled it as well as a 5 year old can.  She may be coming down with a cold, but at least we know it isn't anything more serious.  We weren't worried about the results, but it's still a weird mental game of "what if" and trying to figure out all of the places she or my family have been if we had to deal with contract tracing after a positive result.

Happy to hear that she's negative. It's bad enough watching young children be sick.

How is your daughter doing, Stadler?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 20, 2020, 08:05:25 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 20, 2020, 07:39:48 AM

Just saw a guy on the news this morning announcing he is moving to Indiana due to no school sports in Illinois. Called the politicians a bunch of scaredy-cats. He says that kids being able to participate in sports is more important than the death count.  >:(

Clearly, he is one of those obnoxious a-holes at kids games that you just want to punch out. I say good-riddance.

I too think that's ridiculous, but it is a fine line.  Here in CT, when the CIAC (the governing body for high school sports) cancelled the fall football season, it was a front page story.  There were more protests in Hartford (over that) than I saw for any of the BLM or related issues.   Two schools even decided to "form their own league" and schedule games.   And we're a relatively sedate, very blue state that has been doing most of the right things so far.

I was talking to a colleague of mine who coaches his daughter's soccer team, and in their league he has to police his teams fans for masks and such; he says it's BY FAR the worst part of any coaching gig he's ever done.  He's an attorney and a FANTASTIC negotiator, and he says every conversation is an active one, because he has to be ready for whatever nonsense (or sense) that comes back.

I see both sides of this.  Maybe not full contact, 11-on-11 sports, but I see a contrast between my step son and my grandson; the first has been almost exclusively remote, but has just started two days a week in person, and he (being on the spectrum) is really suffering for the 8-month gap in personal interaction.  My grandson had a slight speech impediment, and his parents have opted to continue having him in pre-school as much as they can, and the interaction with other kids and his teachers has improved his speaking 100-fold.  He's three, and it will be incrementally harder to achieve this growth later in life.  I know "death" is final, but we're also talking about non-viral impacts to the rest of these kids lives.  That's heavy shit.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 20, 2020, 08:58:54 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on October 20, 2020, 07:39:48 AM

Just saw a guy on the news this morning announcing he is moving to Indiana due to no school sports in Illinois. Called the politicians a bunch of scaredy-cats. He says that kids being able to participate in sports is more important than the death count.  >:(

Clearly, he is one of those obnoxious a-holes at kids games that you just want to punch out. I say good-riddance.

Illinois Man strikes again

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 09:15:00 AM

I'd say that guy is extreme, but there is some fine line between death from covid and the death of society and growth.  I can potentially see someone make an argument that sports are important and should be played, but when you say it's more important than the death count, you kind of lose your point. 

Here is an article about how schools turn out to not be the super spreaders everyone predicted they would be:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-arent-superspreaders/616669/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-arent-superspreaders/616669/)

Quote

One might argue, again, that any risk is too great, and that schools must be completely safe before local governments move to reopen them. But this approach ignores the enormous costs to children from closed schools.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 20, 2020, 09:24:07 AM

People who are THAT upset about sports being down really need to find additional hobbies to fill their clearly abundant free time

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 09:30:55 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 20, 2020, 09:24:07 AM

People who are THAT upset about sports being down really need to find additional hobbies to fill their clearly abundant free time

The only way I can see someone being that extreme with sports is if their high school kid needed to play to get a scholarship to a college.  Like, that's a lot of money and a future for the kid to make it worth it to find a way for him/her to play. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on October 20, 2020, 12:53:34 PM

Researchers in Finland have found that based on the first wave of cases, only 1 in 6 people that carried the virus passed it on to others, and only 1 in 20 infected more than one person. I'm not sure how well it represents the bigger picture since not nearly all cases were found during the first wave, but the virus seems to rely on superspreaders if it's an accurate enough representation. Apparently the original SARS showed a similar spread pattern.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 01:27:53 PM

Quote from: Luoto on October 20, 2020, 12:53:34 PM

Researchers in Finland have found that based on the first wave of cases, only 1 in 6 people that carried the virus passed it on to others, and only 1 in 20 infected more than one person. I'm not sure how well it represents the bigger picture since not nearly all cases were found during the first wave, but the virus seems to rely on superspreaders if it's an accurate enough representation. Apparently the original SARS showed a similar spread pattern.

Interesting, I wonder what makes one a be the superspreader.  Like for example, I read about blood type may play a role in how bad you get it or vitamin D maybe playing a role in reducing your chances of a bad case.  It would be interesting to know if they could do a blood test on someone and determine how likely they would have a bad infection and how likely they would be to spread to others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 04:37:12 PM

So my sister's step son was at their house over the weekend and he got real sick, tested and was positive today.  Now my sister and her husband are feeling sick so it seems likely the spread was all through their house.  My two baby nieces while fine, probably have it too.  Apparently the step sons was traced back to his step father who while knowingly felt sick, was forced to pick the step son up from school by the mom and now it's spread. 

So I was there, not this past weekend, but the previous Sunday and he wasn't there so I feel confident I didn't catch it previously, but there is some doubt that being it's a two week lag sometimes, that it could potentially have spread to me.  I don't think so because he wasn't there, but you never know.  Has me thinking about my situation yesterday where I felt unsafe around these vendors without masks on but maybe the reality is they shouldn't of felt safe around me. 

THIS IS THE REASON FOR MASKS AND SOCIAL DISTANCING!  >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 20, 2020, 05:40:07 PM

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 05:51:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 20, 2020, 05:40:07 PM

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

Yea, I'm not surprised though.  My little sister/husband are anti-vaxxers and really haven't taken the social distancing thing too well.  Some of it, I can imagine being difficult with two toddlers, but some of it is definitely their radical beliefs.  Luckily, everyone there is younger than me and not in too bad of health generally.  Both are smokers though, so it is concerning obviously, but I'm more just annoyed with people who don't take this seriously and spreading it.  I already lost my grandma, it's hit home already.  You'd think that would make a difference in the mentality.  I'm just glad I didn't stop by last weekend which I was considering doing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 20, 2020, 08:27:08 PM

I remember you mentioning that your family was having gatherings, and not exactly diligent in taking appropriated measures.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on October 20, 2020, 08:38:26 PM

People only think of themselves not if the could affect others in their lives.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 20, 2020, 08:43:57 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 05:51:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 20, 2020, 05:40:07 PM

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

Yea, I'm not surprised though.  My little sister/husband are anti-vaxxers and really haven't taken the social distancing thing too well.  Some of it, I can imagine being difficult with two toddlers, but some of it is definitely their radical beliefs.  Luckily, everyone there is younger than me and not in too bad of health generally.  Both are smokers though, so it is concerning obviously, but I'm more just annoyed with people who don't take this seriously and spreading it.  I already lost my grandma, it's hit home already.  You'd think that would make a difference in the mentality.  I'm just glad I didn't stop by last weekend which I was considering doing.

Well, the good news is that it doesn't sound like you were exposed.


Some people just live their lives differently, and perhaps they just don't understand. I was upset with my sister in law a few months back when my son graduated high school, and she wouldn't even get next to him to take a picture.

My mother in law's step children (grown adults, obviously) aren't maskers, and even went to Florida recently and my MIL won't let them in her house. And her husband (their father) is over 80.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 09:14:29 PM

Quote from: TAC on October 20, 2020, 08:43:57 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 05:51:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 20, 2020, 05:40:07 PM

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

Yea, I'm not surprised though.  My little sister/husband are anti-vaxxers and really haven't taken the social distancing thing too well.  Some of it, I can imagine being difficult with two toddlers, but some of it is definitely their radical beliefs.  Luckily, everyone there is younger than me and not in too bad of health generally.  Both are smokers though, so it is concerning obviously, but I'm more just annoyed with people who don't take this seriously and spreading it.  I already lost my grandma, it's hit home already.  You'd think that would make a difference in the mentality.  I'm just glad I didn't stop by last weekend which I was considering doing.

Well, the good news is that it doesn't sound like you were exposed.


Some people just live their lives differently, and perhaps they just don't understand. I was upset with my sister in law a few months back when my son graduated high school, and she wouldn't even get next to him to take a picture.

My mother in law's step children (grown adults, obviously) aren't maskers, and even went to Florida recently and my MIL won't let them in her house. And her husband (their father) is over 80.

Yea, I recall this story.  I just feel I've had a few accumulative instances that kind of piled up and I'm a bit raging. Now, our Governor is "requesting no more interstate travel other than PA and CT"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 21, 2020, 01:06:14 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 20, 2020, 01:27:53 PM

Quote from: Luoto on October 20, 2020, 12:53:34 PM

Researchers in Finland have found that based on the first wave of cases, only 1 in 6 people that carried the virus passed it on to others, and only 1 in 20 infected more than one person. I'm not sure how well it represents the bigger picture since not nearly all cases were found during the first wave, but the virus seems to rely on superspreaders if it's an accurate enough representation. Apparently the original SARS showed a similar spread pattern.

Interesting, I wonder what makes one a be the superspreader.  Like for example, I read about blood type may play a role in how bad you get it or vitamin D maybe playing a role in reducing your chances of a bad case.  It would be interesting to know if they could do a blood test on someone and determine how likely they would have a bad infection and how likely they would be to spread to others.

It has to be said that Finland is nowhere near the levels of population density of the major US cities, or many other european countries - my north Italy for example is completely clustered in Lombardy and in Milan and obviously that's where the most cases happen.

Then of course I'm no expert on the matter so I believe researches blaming superspreaders, but I would assume a superspreader's "job" is facilitated by living in zones with a high density population.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 21, 2020, 03:16:50 AM

BTW, over the course of less than 24 hours this happened:

- Xmas markets cancelled in the mountains
- An Halloweenish open air little fair on a lake cancelled (I was usually going to the summer ones of the same organization)
- A symbolic make-up date for a beloved folk festival attended by basically everyone I know cancelled

Meh. This is not the year to have fun.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on October 21, 2020, 04:30:37 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 21, 2020, 01:06:14 AM

It has to be said that Finland is nowhere near the levels of population density of the major US cities, or many other european countries - my north Italy for example is completely clustered in Lombardy and in Milan and obviously that's where the most cases happen.

Our current worst area is actually not in the most dense part of the country, which currently has about 83 cases per 100,000 people (capital region). The administrative health region of Vaasa, which has a total population of 140,000, is at a staggering 332 cases per 100,000 people (the largest city probably has something like 500/100k). Majority of cases are young adults.

There's another interesting new discovery about the genetics of the virus which explains it's high contagion rate. Researchers found the virus has another "key" inside the human cell in addition to the already known Ace-2, called neuropilin. It's the same genetic piece that's also possessed by highly dangerous viruses such as HIV, ebola and the avian flu. Once this piece was removed from the virus in lab conditions, infections decreased by more than 40%. (Source: Science / Helsingin Sanomat)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 21, 2020, 05:43:15 AM

Quote from: Luoto on October 21, 2020, 04:30:37 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 21, 2020, 01:06:14 AM

It has to be said that Finland is nowhere near the levels of population density of the major US cities, or many other european countries - my north Italy for example is completely clustered in Lombardy and in Milan and obviously that's where the most cases happen.

Our current worst area is actually not in the most dense part of the country, which currently has about 83 cases per 100,000 people (capital region). The administrative health region of Vaasa, which has a total population of 140,000, is at a staggering 332 cases per 100,000 people (the largest city probably has something like 500/100k). Majority of cases are young adults.

There's another interesting new discovery about the genetics of the virus which explains it's high contagion rate. Researchers found the virus has another "key" inside the human cell in addition to the already known Ace-2, called neuropilin. It's the same genetic piece that's also possessed by highly dangerous viruses such as HIV, ebola and the avian flu. Once this piece was removed from the virus in lab conditions, infections decreased by more than 40%. (Source: Science / Helsingin Sanomat)

Somewhere during the first peak a mutation occurred in the spike protein of the virus (several publications have shown this). (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-70827-z (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-70827-z)).  There is now data indicating this mutation has increased infectivity and that this variant has become the most common spread over time.

Edit: a better source. Offcourse many groups are looking into this.
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30820-5?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420308205%3Fshowall%3Dtrue (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30820-5?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420308205%3Fshowall%3Dtrue)




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7310631/

Do keep in mind this particular article is pre-print, so peer reviews are still in process.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 21, 2020, 07:14:27 AM

Does that (possibly) explain the (seemingly less) potency as well?  Meaning, does that mutation that seems to increase infectivity also possibly affect how bad the infection is? 

I don't trust my perception - limited data, lamestream media*, lack of context - but it seems as if there are more asymptomatic (or "low" symptom) cases.





* No, not a Trump or Fox thing; shorthand for the sensationalism of much of the coverage; I've already written about how my local news seems to start every broadcast with "New, devastating milestone in the COVID pandemic <solemn look> 4,500... pause... and 60 deaths here in CT" (when yesterday it was 4,559).)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 21, 2020, 07:47:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 21, 2020, 07:14:27 AM

Does that (possibly) explain the (seemingly less) potency as well?  Meaning, does that mutation that seems to increase infectivity also possibly affect how bad the infection is? 

I don't trust my perception - limited data, lamestream media*, lack of context - but it seems as if there are more asymptomatic (or "low" symptom) cases.





* No, not a Trump or Fox thing; shorthand for the sensationalism of much of the coverage; I've already written about how my local news seems to start every broadcast with "New, devastating milestone in the COVID pandemic <solemn look> 4,500... pause... and 60 deaths here in CT" (when yesterday it was 4,559).)

As far as I know, there is no indication of the virus being less potent as of now.

Some considerations:
-Testing and administration is on a whole other scale than during the initial peaks.
-Treatments have significantly improved. Several drugs have been approved for the treatment of patients. And doctors simply have more experience (what type of treatment works best in what situation). The chance of dying has decreased significantly (our media reported on the improved treatments a while ago, and I spoke to doctors at work who treat patients).
-In our country the average age of the positive cases is significantly lower. For the USA I will refer to this: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939e1.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939e1.htm)

Also, while the lower chance of dying is great news, the real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed is unfortunately still relevant. If we reach the point where people cannot get treatment because there is no place/are no resources, deaths will very likely increase exponentially. Which is why so many governments keep opting for lockdown scenarios. In our case we are/were headed to such a scenario.

As for real time numbers, the lag between testing positive, being hospitalised, and dying remains long. Especially now that testing is common and quick, detection can occur before a person is symptomatic. A current peak in positive tests can become a real problem for a hospital a couple of weeks later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 21, 2020, 08:05:32 AM

That sucks Cram.  It's driving me crazy right now too.  The two counties I live in/near that are grouped together for metrics are seeing a big resurgence of cases.  My daughter was set to start in-person learning on Monday.  Yesterday, the county health department recommended remote learning for all schools and her school district cancelled the in-person learning until further notice.  It will probably be pushed back a month, closer to Thanksgiving.  I'm sure we're going to have temporary mitigation/lockdown measures put back in place too until the numbers get better.

I'm so pissed off that grown-ass adults are acting like little babies over this virus, which is screwing things up for all of the kids.  Honestly, the second wave that's happening is bumming me out too.
 Adults whine and cry that kids need to be in school (which requires them to wear a mask for about 7 hours straight), yet the same adults throw a fit when they have to wear one at a store.  My daughter took the news like a champ, but you can see that she's so disappointed that she can't be in school and we have no answers for her. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 21, 2020, 08:11:06 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 21, 2020, 08:05:32 AM

 Adults whine and cry that kids need to be in school (which requires them to wear a mask for about 7 hours straight), yet the same adults throw a fit when they have to wear one at a store.

Great point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 21, 2020, 08:13:59 AM

"do as I say, not as I do"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 09:37:47 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on October 21, 2020, 07:47:00 AM

Also, while the lower chance of dying is great news, the real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed is unfortunately still relevant. If we reach the point where people cannot get treatment because there is no place/are no resources, deaths will very likely increase exponentially. Which is why so many governments keep opting for lockdown scenarios. In our case we are/were headed to such a scenario.

Absolutely this.  And this is where I see a massive twofold failure on the part of our society at large in dealing with this effectively. 

On one hand, this absolutely NEEDS to be the message that is put out there.  This is easy to understand and makes sense to most people.  And if people believe this should be the primary goal, most reasonable people would voluntarily continue taking reasonable precautions without complaining, and most reasonable governments would keep restrictions reasonably tailored to that goal rather than the scattershot approach we have seen.  But this messaging has not gotten out there consistently. 

On the other hand, hospitals and local governments have not coordinated and focused hard enough on the goal of ramping up capacity to meet rises in the curve.  Prior to the outbreak, this is where Cuomo so spectacularly failed in NY, for example (as far as being warned by his own commission of a potential viral outbreak, and advice to use budget funds to ramp up on procuring respirators and staff to deal with such a thing; he didn't, and chose to spend the money elsewhere).  The past seven months should have been spent on a full-court press to produce and procure equipment, staff, and space to deal with a rise.  That has not happened enough.

I think both of these problems clearly tie back to failure to consistently focus on the correct message.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 21, 2020, 10:07:01 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 09:37:47 AM

The past seven months should have been spent on a full-court press to produce and procure equipment, staff, and space to deal with a rise.  That has not happened enough.

But this is however the situation in the entire word. Look at Europe - give or take the situation is the same everywhere. Big cities inevitabily crowded, curfews, restrictions on number of people together, limitations. And cases rises and the stress on the national health system is immense.

You can say that this or that country has an asinine government, and in many cases it can be true. But NO ONE is doing really good. There's not a single country that found a more acceptable compromise between safety and a normal life and you can look at them and saying "look, they did it, they didn't defeat the virus but hey, they can live along with it until there will be a vaccine". That's what puzzles me, you would figure that at least someone, somewhere, would find the right balance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 10:40:29 AM

^I agree with all of that.  That is what I was trying to say.  I'm not trying to call out any particular countries, states, or localities. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 23, 2020, 02:26:04 AM

As with the first peak, we are sending our first patients to Germany. I am thankful our neighbours are helping out to alleviate the crisis.

Quote from: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 09:37:47 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on October 21, 2020, 07:47:00 AM

Also, while the lower chance of dying is great news, the real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed is unfortunately still relevant. If we reach the point where people cannot get treatment because there is no place/are no resources, deaths will very likely increase exponentially. Which is why so many governments keep opting for lockdown scenarios. In our case we are/were headed to such a scenario.

Absolutely this.  And this is where I see a massive twofold failure on the part of our society at large in dealing with this effectively. 

On one hand, this absolutely NEEDS to be the message that is put out there.  This is easy to understand and makes sense to most people.  And if people believe this should be the primary goal, most reasonable people would voluntarily continue taking reasonable precautions without complaining, and most reasonable governments would keep restrictions reasonably tailored to that goal rather than the scattershot approach we have seen.  But this messaging has not gotten out there consistently. 

On the other hand, hospitals and local governments have not coordinated and focused hard enough on the goal of ramping up capacity to meet rises in the curve.  Prior to the outbreak, this is where Cuomo so spectacularly failed in NY, for example (as far as being warned by his own commission of a potential viral outbreak, and advice to use budget funds to ramp up on procuring respirators and staff to deal with such a thing; he didn't, and chose to spend the money elsewhere).  The past seven months should have been spent on a full-court press to produce and procure equipment, staff, and space to deal with a rise.  That has not happened enough.

I think both of these problems clearly tie back to failure to consistently focus on the correct message.

I agree.

Though even if that was/is the focus, I think in our case (The Netherlands) the scale required in the timeframe we got makes it hard to realise. I don't know enough about financials/law/procuring and training personell, but I imagine it is a mighty challenge on all of these fronts within the available amount of time. We have scaled up on several fronts significantly, mainly ICU. But not nearly on the scope required to have a true answer to the crisis. Some of our hospital leaders have commented that in our case it is not possible to scale up much more than this quickly enough.

One thing I do know is that obtaining materials can/will be a challenge for us. We heavily relied on the global economy, meaning a lot of equipment and disposables aren't produced in our country. Even something as simple as gloves has seen a three fold price increase and at my work we had to change supplier for certain products several times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 23, 2020, 06:52:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 09:37:47 AM

On the other hand, hospitals and local governments have not coordinated and focused hard enough on the goal of ramping up capacity to meet rises in the curve.  Prior to the outbreak, this is where Cuomo so spectacularly failed in NY, for example (as far as being warned by his own commission of a potential viral outbreak, and advice to use budget funds to ramp up on procuring respirators and staff to deal with such a thing; he didn't, and chose to spend the money elsewhere).  The past seven months should have been spent on a full-court press to produce and procure equipment, staff, and space to deal with a rise.  That has not happened enough.

I think both of these problems clearly tie back to failure to consistently focus on the correct message.

What can be done about physical building capacity though? I think that's the big issue in a lot of places. You can have all the ventilators and staff in the world, but there's a finite number of square feet available. China built a number of new hospitals in a matter of weeks to accommodate and contain the surge. I don't know if any of the locals governments and/or hospitals in my state could pull something like that off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 23, 2020, 08:57:52 AM

They can't.  That sounds like a bad thing, but it's really a matter of willpower and brute force than any real "capability".  Without saying too much, my ex works in the healthcare industry, and I've first hand heard descriptions of some of those facilities.   Cabinets with rolls of wire stuffed in; electric panels wired but not connected; non-essential utilities (fire, potable water) not connected or connected in a manner that is below what we would consider code...

Not to say we couldn't mobilize temporary facilities, but it's a matter of will, funding, and political capital.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on October 23, 2020, 09:22:11 AM

We've been pretty steady here in FL lately, running between 1.5K and 2.5K new cases per day but yesterday we jumped up to 5.5K.

The thing that never dies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 23, 2020, 09:26:04 AM

Florida: God's Waiting Room, also shaped like a hung dong

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on October 23, 2020, 09:51:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 23, 2020, 09:26:04 AM

Florida: God's Waiting Room

:lol

Quote from: The Walrus on October 23, 2020, 09:26:04 AM

also shaped like a hung dong

pissing on Cuba.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 23, 2020, 09:59:50 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 23, 2020, 06:52:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 09:37:47 AM

On the other hand, hospitals and local governments have not coordinated and focused hard enough on the goal of ramping up capacity to meet rises in the curve.  Prior to the outbreak, this is where Cuomo so spectacularly failed in NY, for example (as far as being warned by his own commission of a potential viral outbreak, and advice to use budget funds to ramp up on procuring respirators and staff to deal with such a thing; he didn't, and chose to spend the money elsewhere).  The past seven months should have been spent on a full-court press to produce and procure equipment, staff, and space to deal with a rise.  That has not happened enough.

I think both of these problems clearly tie back to failure to consistently focus on the correct message.

What can be done about physical building capacity though? I think that's the big issue in a lot of places. You can have all the ventilators and staff in the world, but there's a finite number of square feet available. China built a number of new hospitals in a matter of weeks to accommodate and contain the surge. I don't know if any of the locals governments and/or hospitals in my state could pull something like that off.

You know that made me wonder. If you were to put all the people in the world Side by Side on every Land Mass in the world. Would we be able to all be socially distancing 6ft. apart?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on October 23, 2020, 12:55:48 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 23, 2020, 09:59:50 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 23, 2020, 06:52:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 09:37:47 AM

On the other hand, hospitals and local governments have not coordinated and focused hard enough on the goal of ramping up capacity to meet rises in the curve.  Prior to the outbreak, this is where Cuomo so spectacularly failed in NY, for example (as far as being warned by his own commission of a potential viral outbreak, and advice to use budget funds to ramp up on procuring respirators and staff to deal with such a thing; he didn't, and chose to spend the money elsewhere).  The past seven months should have been spent on a full-court press to produce and procure equipment, staff, and space to deal with a rise.  That has not happened enough.

I think both of these problems clearly tie back to failure to consistently focus on the correct message.

What can be done about physical building capacity though? I think that's the big issue in a lot of places. You can have all the ventilators and staff in the world, but there's a finite number of square feet available. China built a number of new hospitals in a matter of weeks to accommodate and contain the surge. I don't know if any of the locals governments and/or hospitals in my state could pull something like that off.

You know that made me wonder. If you were to put all the people in the world Side by Side on every Land Mass in the world. Would we be able to all be socially distancing 6ft. apart?

Easily, if I'm understanding your question correctly. To put it into perspective, you can fit 1,560 people on an American football field and have everyone be 6 feet apart. There are approximately 285 people per square mile of inhabitable land on earth (which is less than half of the actual land on earth).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 23, 2020, 03:14:21 PM

Quote from: Chino on October 23, 2020, 06:52:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on October 21, 2020, 09:37:47 AM

On the other hand, hospitals and local governments have not coordinated and focused hard enough on the goal of ramping up capacity to meet rises in the curve.  Prior to the outbreak, this is where Cuomo so spectacularly failed in NY, for example (as far as being warned by his own commission of a potential viral outbreak, and advice to use budget funds to ramp up on procuring respirators and staff to deal with such a thing; he didn't, and chose to spend the money elsewhere).  The past seven months should have been spent on a full-court press to produce and procure equipment, staff, and space to deal with a rise.  That has not happened enough.

I think both of these problems clearly tie back to failure to consistently focus on the correct message.

What can be done about physical building capacity though? I think that's the big issue in a lot of places. You can have all the ventilators and staff in the world, but there's a finite number of square feet available. China built a number of new hospitals in a matter of weeks to accommodate and contain the surge. I don't know if any of the locals governments and/or hospitals in my state could pull something like that off.

Let's not forget we actually were able to find a way to accommodate quickly via this and it went unused so... https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/politics/navy-hospital-ship-comfort-new-york-coronavirus/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/politics/navy-hospital-ship-comfort-new-york-coronavirus/index.html) but also, that article talks about converting other spaces to hospital beds that were used.  We actually proved we can do this and honestly, I think we could do it again and even better if needed.  Gaining supplies is much harder though, PPE and ventilators were a major issue and I'm not sure if we resolved it enough to deal with another surge.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on October 24, 2020, 11:13:11 AM

The number of cases has started rising here in my city, and it's the first real test for our local contact tracing. So far the situation is very much under control as almost all sources of infection are known and all who are exposed have been contacted. The infection chains are largely related to sports clubs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on October 24, 2020, 12:55:10 PM

I had to fly to another city for work yesterday, and I've never seen a plane this empty. There was no one else in my row, and it was on Friday evening no less. Before Covid that plane would've been packed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 08:14:40 AM

Anyone else from time to time goes to read the first pages of this thread? boy, how the world has changed. No one, even the more "this is serious, it's better to take precautions" folks, could have ever imagined what was about to come.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 08:18:37 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 08:14:40 AM

Anyone else from time to time goes to read the first pages of this thread? boy, how the world has changed. No one, even the more "this is serious, it's better to take precautions" folks, could have ever imagined what was about to come.

Haha - I just did that.  8 months ago, I wasn't worried about the virus at all.  That changed quickly once things started getting bad in my state and area. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 28, 2020, 08:42:23 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 08:14:40 AM

Anyone else from time to time goes to read the first pages of this thread? boy, how the world has changed. No one, even the more "this is serious, it's better to take precautions" folks, could have ever imagined what was about to come.

It's interesting watching certain reality TV shows - I watch Married At First Sight, for example - and watching them get informed in real time.   The amazing thing for me was, now that I'm in it full stop, I sort of expected it to be a hard start back in February, but watching those shows, it was anything but.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 08:47:01 AM

I immediately took it seriously, and I couldn't anyway imagine what was to come. To the day it was implemented I probably couldn't even imagine a nationwide lockdown, that was just a weird thing you saw in China because it's a faraway country with a different culture and, on top of that, a dictatorship. I expected that we'd sacrifice the spring to slowly restart in summer, I still remember someone having to visit Italy from the forum and telling him "I guess by late summer it should have all blown over".

Right now? I'm already mentally preparing myself for no concerts in summer 2021.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 08:49:17 AM

Late March and most of April were nervewracking for me but after that... life's been the same. Literally nothing has changed, other than I wear a mask in places. I'm over it; life's back to normal as far as I'm concerned over here. Gotta move on at some point. Glad I don't live in a city.

I guess the only downside is that I refuse to go to the gym but that's mostly because they still mandate masks and I'm not wearing a mask when I'm already trying to work myself to a point of breathing heavy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on October 28, 2020, 09:07:55 AM

As a single person with no kids, besides wearing the mask my life is pretty much the same as it was before covid. My state has almost 30 other states travel restricted and therefore my work forbids me from traveling to them without doing an unpaid 14 day quarantine. So that part is getting old.

Thank holy god that I don't have kids though, because I hear about what its like for the parents I work with. What a mess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

Mandatory masks will limit the spread to the point of hospitals aren’t overwhelmed. Yes, 200k+ people have died and that’s horrible but a large percentage of those people that died had underlying health issues. Doesn’t make the deaths any less significant.....only that we should also be focused on the survivability if the virus as week which is extremely high. When you look at pet capita models the US is one of the lowest as far as deaths and infections.

I’m not one to doubt the contagious nature of the virus but I also don’t think keeping things shut down is the answer as well. Diligent mask mandates (this is where trump has failed) and common sense social distancing measures should be all that’s needed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:17:00 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

In Illinois, hospitals are now getting overwhelmed again.  So here come the shutdowns again....because masks aren't mandatory, and even if they were, people are refusing to wear them and business are refusing to close.  So it is what it is at this point.  I like our governor and think he has done the absolute right things to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed, but the politicization of the virus and mask wearing are continuing to create issues for the hospitals. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:18:32 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:17:00 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

In Illinois, hospitals are now getting overwhelmed again.  So here come the shutdowns again....because masks aren't mandatory, and even if they were, people are refusing to wear them and business are refusing to close.  So it is what it is at this point.  I like our governor and think he has done the absolute right things to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed, but the politicization of the virus and mask wearing are continuing to create issues for the hospitals.

100% agreed, but none of the rubes want to talk about that, they just want to bitch about his toilets (which is a valid but hilarious argument, but completely irrelevant)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 28, 2020, 09:20:34 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 08:47:01 AM

Right now? I'm already mentally preparing myself for no concerts in summer 2021.

I'm mentally prepared for this as well, I just don't see any concerts of the normal type happening for awhile unless this virus mutates to something less serious or we have an effective vaccine in early 2021. 

NJ is starting to impose tougher restrictions in hot spots (Newark for example) and our governor has asked (not required) that no one leave the state unless its for work or groceries. 

We went from ~300 cases a day and single digit deaths per day over the summer to now ~1200 cases a day and double digit deaths (one day we hit 2k cases which was where we were at back in May).  Some of it is because we are testing more and more, but our R has been rising.  We had it to under 1 in the summer and now it's around 1.2.  It's legit spreading quickly, not just overly testing.  I expect we'll see more upticks after the holidays and maybe a very dark winter.  I really hope not, but I don't feel optimistic about this at all.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open.

Even with my pessimism, I actually agree with this.  I don't think our society can handle another full blown shut down.  I think the best is to force people to mask up and leave things open in their limited capacity.  I think that's really our best bet at holding the line between health and economy.  And keep confirming the idea that social distancing is for the best of everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:18:32 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:17:00 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

In Illinois, hospitals are now getting overwhelmed again.  So here come the shutdowns again....because masks aren't mandatory, and even if they were, people are refusing to wear them and business are refusing to close.  So it is what it is at this point.  I like our governor and think he has done the absolute right things to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed, but the politicization of the virus and mask wearing are continuing to create issues for the hospitals.

100% agreed, but none of the rubes want to talk about that, they just want to bitch about his toilets (which is a valid but hilarious argument, but completely irrelevant)

I agree as well. All of the models show even with just 85% of the American public wearing masks the virus’s spread would be greatly reduced to manageable numbers. Add in good hygiene and the social distancing measures and this thing is manageable.

And that’s been the beef all along. From the top (President) to the local level the leadership on this has been non existent.....or sporadic at Best with conflicting ideologies. The fact that our country didn’t have a unified plan and vision for this is unacceptable. Historically things like this are when the two sides would put aside differences and do what was best for the American people. The fact this was politicized is just a sign of the times and an outright shame.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 28, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:18:32 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:17:00 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

In Illinois, hospitals are now getting overwhelmed again.  So here come the shutdowns again....because masks aren't mandatory, and even if they were, people are refusing to wear them and business are refusing to close.  So it is what it is at this point.  I like our governor and think he has done the absolute right things to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed, but the politicization of the virus and mask wearing are continuing to create issues for the hospitals.

100% agreed, but none of the rubes want to talk about that, they just want to bitch about his toilets (which is a valid but hilarious argument, but completely irrelevant)

I agree as well. All of the models show even with just 85% of the American public wearing masks the virus’s spread would be greatly reduced to manageable numbers. Add in good hygiene and the social distancing measures and this thing is manageable.

And that’s been the beef all along. From the top (President) to the local level the leadership on this has been non existent.....or sporadic at Best with conflicting ideologies. The fact that our country didn’t have a unified plan and vision for this is unacceptable. Historically things like this are when the two sides would put aside differences and do what was best for the American people. The fact this was politicized is just a sign of the times and an outright shame.

This whole ordeal has convinced me that such a plan could never exist. Such a plan would require direct orders from the federal government with consequences for not following those orders, and that would never fly. We could have all the plans in place that we want, but there's clearly a large segment of this population that will just straight up refuse to cooperate. I just don't get it. People don't seem to object to fines or more severe punishment for speeding, illegal dumping, or child abuse. What is it about "Where a mask out while out in public" or "You can't have a gathering with over 40 people" that's so controversial? The "slippery slope" argument only goes so far, and to play that card (not implying you are) in this scenario just seems foolish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 28, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

[This whole ordeal has convinced me that such a plan could never exist. Such a plan would require direct orders from the federal government with consequences for not following those orders, and that would never fly. We could have all the plans in place that we want, but there's clearly a large segment of this population that will just straight up refuse to cooperate. I just don't get it. People don't seem to object to fines or more severe punishment for speeding, illegal dumping, or child abuse. What is it about "Where a mask out while out in public" or "You can't have a gathering with over 40 people" that's so controversial? The "slippery slope" argument only goes so far, and to play that card (not implying you are) in this scenario just seems foolish.

I really believe a different President could have gotten out in front of the virus.  It would have been possible to get all 50 governors on a phone call, tell them what to prepare for, advise them on how the federal government could help them if needed, that it doesn't matter what political party a state is led by when the virus is coming for all of them at some point.  The response is still led by the states, but a national message of unity and fighting the virus together as opposed to division down party-lines. 

What actually happened just demonstrates the results of having a President with zero political experience and the inability to handle a true crisis. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 28, 2020, 09:52:13 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 28, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

[This whole ordeal has convinced me that such a plan could never exist. Such a plan would require direct orders from the federal government with consequences for not following those orders, and that would never fly. We could have all the plans in place that we want, but there's clearly a large segment of this population that will just straight up refuse to cooperate. I just don't get it. People don't seem to object to fines or more severe punishment for speeding, illegal dumping, or child abuse. What is it about "Where a mask out while out in public" or "You can't have a gathering with over 40 people" that's so controversial? The "slippery slope" argument only goes so far, and to play that card (not implying you are) in this scenario just seems foolish.

I really believe a different President could have gotten out in front of the virus.  It would have been possible to get all 50 governors on a phone call, tell them what to prepare for, advise them on how the federal government could help them if needed, that it doesn't matter what political party a state is led by when the virus is coming for all of them at some point.  The response is still led by the states, but a national message of unity and fighting the virus together as opposed to division down party-lines. 

What actually happened just demonstrates the results of having a President with zero political experience and the inability to handle a true crisis.

^^^^^

This. 150%

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

The response might be led by the states, and a better leader might have gotten out in front of it, but it would've have made a lick of difference to any of the hundreds of thousands of rubes out there who think wearing masks is bullshit or for pussies etc.

Hell every time my old man has to put on a mask he mutters, "fuckin' bullshit" as if it's some kind of big deal or that he'll have to wear it longer than 60 seconds, despite almost never putting one on anyway. What a giant baby  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 09:58:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

Mandatory masks will limit the spread to the point of hospitals aren’t overwhelmed. Yes, 200k+ people have died and that’s horrible but a large percentage of those people that died had underlying health issues. Doesn’t make the deaths any less significant.....only that we should also be focused on the survivability if the virus as week which is extremely high. When you look at pet capita models the US is one of the lowest as far as deaths and infections.

Come again?  Per the below (as of 2 weeks ago), the US is 7th highest in per capita.  Although I think the below graph doesn't include deep 3rd world countries (eg Peru, Ecuador ...).  Though, with over 200 countries on the planet, being in the top 20 doesn't make you "one of the lowest"

"Countries that were unable to control their outbreaks have tended to suffer the most economic pain"
source: https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-global-data/

(https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-global-data/images/chart1-L--374f0062efb797a80baf443fe2929be2.svg)

I do agree on your last part.  wide-scale macro lockdowns are not the best approach.  Contact tracing, and targeted restrictions (along with masks + hygiene + distancing) are the simplest, most non-restrictive tactics that deliver great benefit.  Lockdowns are simply a means to the end goal of enforcing the distancing aspect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

The response might be led by the states, and a better leader might have gotten out in front of it, but it would've have made a lick of difference to any of the hundreds of thousands of rubes out there who think wearing masks is bullshit or for pussies etc.

Agreed... but why do people think that way?  How was that perception initiated and then propagated - and continually done so today?  I can't help but believe it was largely a political stance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

The response might be led by the states, and a better leader might have gotten out in front of it, but it would've have made a lick of difference to any of the hundreds of thousands of rubes out there who think wearing masks is bullshit or for pussies etc.

Agreed... but why do people think that way?  How was that perception initiated and then propagated - and continually done so today?  I can't help but believe it was largely a political stance.

If you really think a change in leadership is all that it would take to sway all the minds of those anti-maskers, I'm not sure what to tell you, man. These people would be ignoring the mandate no matter who put it in place. Trump could come out and demand a mask mandate yesterday and tons of people would give him the finger and go about their business. Humans aren't going to just go along a mandatory mask mandate, not here, anyway. Especially when you can, like, wear it in the restaurant, but you can take it off when you sit down to eat? Then what's the point of wearing it in the restaurant at all? And the slope gets more slippery from there. As soon as you allow leniency or certain places to take it off, people will run with it and eventually go, "Why even bother?"

Switching out a republican for a dem, especially at this point, really isn't going to make a large number of people change their behavior 9 months into this. I just don't have confidence in human nature - or American culture - to pretend like a paradigm shift is going to happen just because a politician mandates masks. ESPECIALLY in places like my town where life has, more or less, gone on as usual without any interruptions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 10:17:01 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 28, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

[This whole ordeal has convinced me that such a plan could never exist. Such a plan would require direct orders from the federal government with consequences for not following those orders, and that would never fly. We could have all the plans in place that we want, but there's clearly a large segment of this population that will just straight up refuse to cooperate. I just don't get it. People don't seem to object to fines or more severe punishment for speeding, illegal dumping, or child abuse. What is it about "Where a mask out while out in public" or "You can't have a gathering with over 40 people" that's so controversial? The "slippery slope" argument only goes so far, and to play that card (not implying you are) in this scenario just seems foolish.

I really believe a different President could have gotten out in front of the virus.  It would have been possible to get all 50 governors on a phone call, tell them what to prepare for, advise them on how the federal government could help them if needed, that it doesn't matter what political party a state is led by when the virus is coming for all of them at some point.  The response is still led by the states, but a national message of unity and fighting the virus together as opposed to division down party-lines. 

What actually happened just demonstrates the results of having a President with zero political experience and the inability to handle a true crisis.

Totally this. A 'REAL' leader could have and would have taken the bull by the horns and gotten both sides and the states to focus on a unified vision. I understand what Brian is speaking to....we see it everyday where people are just ignoring common sense and refusing to take the simplest of measures by wearing a mask. I get it. But I do believe a real, focused leader could reach the population and lower leaders in government and could have made a significant impact. Problem is....I don't think our country has had a 'real' leader in quite some time. Decades....the past few Presidents have just been party and corporate puppets with no real concern for the average American.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:20:48 AM

^^ You don't think Obama cared about the average regular person? I don't like everything he did (or didn't do...) but that man was absolutely concerned for the average American and still is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:20:48 AM

^^ You don't think Obama cared about the average regular person? I don't like everything he did (or didn't do...) but that man was absolutely concerned for the average American and still is.

To an extent I do. He was certainly more genuine and compassionate than trump.....I even thing George W. is a good man with a caring heart. But I think both of them along with Clinton, Bush Sr. and so on are still completely detached from reality when it comes to the plight of the 'average' American. Maybe at one time they spent some time as 'average'....but the level of wealth and power that they've been exposed to, lived in and are a still a part of makes it near impossible for them to relate to what 'real' people are going through. I think at this point with obama and the rest of them it's all about power and who gets to use it.....'us' or 'them'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

The response might be led by the states, and a better leader might have gotten out in front of it, but it would've have made a lick of difference to any of the hundreds of thousands of rubes out there who think wearing masks is bullshit or for pussies etc.

Agreed... but why do people think that way?  How was that perception initiated and then propagated - and continually done so today?  I can't help but believe it was largely a political stance.

If you really think a change in leadership is all that it would take to sway all the minds of those anti-maskers, I'm not sure what to tell you, man. These people would be ignoring the mandate no matter who put it in place. Trump could come out and demand a mask mandate yesterday and tons of people would give him the finger and go about their business. Humans aren't going to just go along a mandatory mask mandate, not here, anyway. Especially when you can, like, wear it in the restaurant, but you can take it off when you sit down to eat? Then what's the point of wearing it in the restaurant at all? And the slope gets more slippery from there. As soon as you allow leniency or certain places to take it off, people will run with it and eventually go, "Why even bother?"

Switching out a republican for a dem, especially at this point, really isn't going to make a large number of people change their behavior 9 months into this. I just don't have confidence in human nature - or American culture - to pretend like a paradigm shift is going to happen just because a politician mandates masks. ESPECIALLY in places like my town where life has, more or less, gone on as usual without any interruptions.

You're completely right, MJ.  I'm with you.  But just as *some* of the MAGA bubble wear masks, and lots of moderate Reps (ie, the Gary Miller's of the country) do abide by mask suggestions, just think how many more would if POTUS and the party leadership were vehement around the need.  Look, it's not solely on Reps ... I'm sure there are more than a handful of Dems screaming "but mah freedomz!!!".  In the end, I think a unified message from all political leaders would have had a meaningful impact.  At this point, that toothpaste ain't getting back in the tube.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 10:33:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 10:25:59 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:20:48 AM

^^ You don't think Obama cared about the average regular person? I don't like everything he did (or didn't do...) but that man was absolutely concerned for the average American and still is.

To an extent I do. He was certainly more genuine and compassionate than trump.....I even thing George W. is a good man with a caring heart. But I think both of them along with Clinton, Bush Sr. and so on are still completely detached from reality when it comes to the plight of the 'average' American. Maybe at one time they spent some time as 'average'....but the level of wealth and power that they've been exposed to, lived in and are a still a part of makes it near impossible for them to relate to what 'real' people are going through. I think at this point with obama and the rest of them it's all about power and who gets to use it.....'us' or 'them'.

I  think most of all you need empathy, and a basic decency. You can understand people's plight even if you don't live it. My biggest musical discovery of this year is Bruce Springsteen, he's hailed as a working class hero and yet he never worked in a factory a single day of his life. Why he's the hero of a group of people he never belonged to, not even before becoming famous? because he has empathy, he gets them, and finds a way to understand their feelings and put them into songs. I have never been despressed but I can - somehow - understand what depressed people go through (how? simple, they speak about it. Listen to them, read what they write). And there are countless brilliant filmmakers and book writers out there who create movies and books that reasonate with certain plights the authors themselves never suffered. Yes, when you're a politician having lived the hard life can surely help to give you basic experience, but when you don't have experience, some empathy and being at heart a decent, good human being brings you quite far.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:34:12 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

The response might be led by the states, and a better leader might have gotten out in front of it, but it would've have made a lick of difference to any of the hundreds of thousands of rubes out there who think wearing masks is bullshit or for pussies etc.

Agreed... but why do people think that way?  How was that perception initiated and then propagated - and continually done so today?  I can't help but believe it was largely a political stance.

If you really think a change in leadership is all that it would take to sway all the minds of those anti-maskers, I'm not sure what to tell you, man. These people would be ignoring the mandate no matter who put it in place. Trump could come out and demand a mask mandate yesterday and tons of people would give him the finger and go about their business. Humans aren't going to just go along a mandatory mask mandate, not here, anyway. Especially when you can, like, wear it in the restaurant, but you can take it off when you sit down to eat? Then what's the point of wearing it in the restaurant at all? And the slope gets more slippery from there. As soon as you allow leniency or certain places to take it off, people will run with it and eventually go, "Why even bother?"

Switching out a republican for a dem, especially at this point, really isn't going to make a large number of people change their behavior 9 months into this. I just don't have confidence in human nature - or American culture - to pretend like a paradigm shift is going to happen just because a politician mandates masks. ESPECIALLY in places like my town where life has, more or less, gone on as usual without any interruptions.

You're completely right, MJ.  I'm with you.  But just as *some* of the MAGA bubble wear masks, and lots of moderate Reps (ie, the Gary Miller's of the country) do abide by mask suggestions, just think how many more would if POTUS and the party leadership were vehement around the need.  Look, it's not solely on Reps ... I'm sure there are more than a handful of Dems screaming "but mah freedomz!!!".  In the end, I think a unified message from all political leaders would have had a meaningful impact.  At this point, that toothpaste ain't getting back in the tube.

I think a unified message would've made a meaningful impact as far as a message goes, but I think where we disagree is the impact it would have on the population of regular Joes. You're right, the toothpaste ain't getting back in the tube either way, so it's kind of a moot point now, but it certainly would've been better to have a unified message from the get go, and especially not playing political games with states who do/don't support you so you're gonna fuck with emergency PPE shipments... stupid Don

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 10:36:22 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 10:31:58 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:55:01 AM

The response might be led by the states, and a better leader might have gotten out in front of it, but it would've have made a lick of difference to any of the hundreds of thousands of rubes out there who think wearing masks is bullshit or for pussies etc.

Agreed... but why do people think that way?  How was that perception initiated and then propagated - and continually done so today?  I can't help but believe it was largely a political stance.

If you really think a change in leadership is all that it would take to sway all the minds of those anti-maskers, I'm not sure what to tell you, man. These people would be ignoring the mandate no matter who put it in place. Trump could come out and demand a mask mandate yesterday and tons of people would give him the finger and go about their business. Humans aren't going to just go along a mandatory mask mandate, not here, anyway. Especially when you can, like, wear it in the restaurant, but you can take it off when you sit down to eat? Then what's the point of wearing it in the restaurant at all? And the slope gets more slippery from there. As soon as you allow leniency or certain places to take it off, people will run with it and eventually go, "Why even bother?"

Switching out a republican for a dem, especially at this point, really isn't going to make a large number of people change their behavior 9 months into this. I just don't have confidence in human nature - or American culture - to pretend like a paradigm shift is going to happen just because a politician mandates masks. ESPECIALLY in places like my town where life has, more or less, gone on as usual without any interruptions.

You're completely right, MJ.  I'm with you.  But just as *some* of the MAGA bubble wear masks, and lots of moderate Reps (ie, the Gary Miller's of the country) do abide by mask suggestions, just think how many more would if POTUS and the party leadership were vehement around the need.  Look, it's not solely on Reps ... I'm sure there are more than a handful of Dems screaming "but mah freedomz!!!".  In the end, I think a unified message from all political leaders would have had a meaningful impact.  At this point, that toothpaste ain't getting back in the tube.

yep. that's the point. The moment there was a sliver of a chance to politicize wearing a mask....the simplest and pretty effective way of containing the spread.......it was politicized. It should have never even been a discussion on whether you should or shouldn't. A good leader would have made that clear to the country and all parties involved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 10:43:22 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 10:34:12 AM

I think a unified message would've made a meaningful impact as far as a message goes, but I think where we disagree is the impact it would have on the population of regular Joes. You're right, the toothpaste ain't getting back in the tube either way, so it's kind of a moot point now, but it certainly would've been better to have a unified message from the get go, and especially not playing political games with states who do/don't support you so you're gonna fuck with emergency PPE shipments... stupid Don

You mean moo?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/a651457c99005d2938ff74975d285066/tenor.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 28, 2020, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: Chino on October 28, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:18:32 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:17:00 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

In Illinois, hospitals are now getting overwhelmed again.  So here come the shutdowns again....because masks aren't mandatory, and even if they were, people are refusing to wear them and business are refusing to close.  So it is what it is at this point.  I like our governor and think he has done the absolute right things to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed, but the politicization of the virus and mask wearing are continuing to create issues for the hospitals.

100% agreed, but none of the rubes want to talk about that, they just want to bitch about his toilets (which is a valid but hilarious argument, but completely irrelevant)

I agree as well. All of the models show even with just 85% of the American public wearing masks the virus’s spread would be greatly reduced to manageable numbers. Add in good hygiene and the social distancing measures and this thing is manageable.

And that’s been the beef all along. From the top (President) to the local level the leadership on this has been non existent.....or sporadic at Best with conflicting ideologies. The fact that our country didn’t have a unified plan and vision for this is unacceptable. Historically things like this are when the two sides would put aside differences and do what was best for the American people. The fact this was politicized is just a sign of the times and an outright shame.

This whole ordeal has convinced me that such a plan could never exist. Such a plan would require direct orders from the federal government with consequences for not following those orders, and that would never fly. We could have all the plans in place that we want, but there's clearly a large segment of this population that will just straight up refuse to cooperate. I just don't get it. People don't seem to object to fines or more severe punishment for speeding, illegal dumping, or child abuse. What is it about "Where a mask out while out in public" or "You can't have a gathering with over 40 people" that's so controversial? The "slippery slope" argument only goes so far, and to play that card (not implying you are) in this scenario just seems foolish.

In part, it's because this is immediate and personal.   None of this surprises me; for all the laughter I get in response to my "tend your own garden", this is literally the definition of that.  Everyone do their part.  Everyone make sure their masks cover their nose and moutn, and if 85% of people do that, we're good.

It's easy to say "throw the book at child molesters!" because I'm not and so I'll never pay that price.   This is different.  I have to actually wear that mask that I may be telling others they should wear. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 28, 2020, 01:24:43 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 28, 2020, 09:58:20 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

Mandatory masks will limit the spread to the point of hospitals aren’t overwhelmed. Yes, 200k+ people have died and that’s horrible but a large percentage of those people that died had underlying health issues. Doesn’t make the deaths any less significant.....only that we should also be focused on the survivability if the virus as week which is extremely high. When you look at pet capita models the US is one of the lowest as far as deaths and infections.

Come again?  Per the below (as of 2 weeks ago), the US is 7th highest in per capita.  Although I think the below graph doesn't include deep 3rd world countries (eg Peru, Ecuador ...).  Though, with over 200 countries on the planet, being in the top 20 doesn't make you "one of the lowest"

"Countries that were unable to control their outbreaks have tended to suffer the most economic pain"
source: https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-global-data/

(https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-global-data/images/chart1-L--374f0062efb797a80baf443fe2929be2.svg)

I do agree on your last part.  wide-scale macro lockdowns are not the best approach.  Contact tracing, and targeted restrictions (along with masks + hygiene + distancing) are the simplest, most non-restrictive tactics that deliver great benefit.  Lockdowns are simply a means to the end goal of enforcing the distancing aspect.

We are 13th in cases per 1M population, and 10th in deaths per 1M population. (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on October 28, 2020, 01:26:54 PM

Quote from: Stadler on October 28, 2020, 01:20:49 PM

It's easy to say "throw the book at child molesters!" because I'm not and so I'll never pay that price.   This is different.  I have to actually wear that mask that I may be telling others they should wear.

Do you get the sense the people saying to wear a mask don't wear it themselves?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 28, 2020, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:42:53 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 28, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

[This whole ordeal has convinced me that such a plan could never exist. Such a plan would require direct orders from the federal government with consequences for not following those orders, and that would never fly. We could have all the plans in place that we want, but there's clearly a large segment of this population that will just straight up refuse to cooperate. I just don't get it. People don't seem to object to fines or more severe punishment for speeding, illegal dumping, or child abuse. What is it about "Where a mask out while out in public" or "You can't have a gathering with over 40 people" that's so controversial? The "slippery slope" argument only goes so far, and to play that card (not implying you are) in this scenario just seems foolish.

I really believe a different President could have gotten out in front of the virus.  It would have been possible to get all 50 governors on a phone call, tell them what to prepare for, advise them on how the federal government could help them if needed, that it doesn't matter what political party a state is led by when the virus is coming for all of them at some point.  The response is still led by the states, but a national message of unity and fighting the virus together as opposed to division down party-lines. 

What actually happened just demonstrates the results of having a President with zero political experience and the inability to handle a true crisis.

The problem with that theory is that there's no really strong correlation between the states with "bad" numbers (or outbreaks) and party affiliation.   Whether Trump was a "strong leader" or not, most of the controls were and still are implemented at the state level.   It's not like here in CT we're all waiting on baited breath for the next pearl of wisdom from Donald J. Trump.  Ned Lamont - my governor - has done about as good a job at this as you could ask (he's a Democrat, by the way) and yet, we're battling with each of the states around us, mostly also led by Democrats, and our almost-40 state travel restriction list changes almost daily.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 28, 2020, 01:36:45 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on October 28, 2020, 01:26:54 PM

Quote from: Stadler on October 28, 2020, 01:20:49 PM

It's easy to say "throw the book at child molesters!" because I'm not and so I'll never pay that price.   This is different.  I have to actually wear that mask that I may be telling others they should wear.

Do you get the sense the people saying to wear a mask don't wear it themselves?

I have no way of answering that.  Do I have a "sense"?   I don't know.   I wear one almost all the time I'm out of my house (I say "almost" because I didn't wear one when I went and hung with my friends a couple weeks ago, and didn't wear one when I was at my daughter-in-laws birthday party, but I social distanced like a mofo in both cases) and yet I've had the conversation of "do I need this?" while the person waves the mask at me far more often than I should if this was accepted by as many people as some of the posts here suggest. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 28, 2020, 03:06:00 PM

Quote from: Chino on October 28, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 28, 2020, 09:18:32 AM

Quote from: Grappler on October 28, 2020, 09:17:00 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 28, 2020, 09:11:21 AM

We should be at the point now where masks are mandatory but that’s it. Everything should be open. The initial shut down wasn’t about making sure people didn’t get it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals.

In Illinois, hospitals are now getting overwhelmed again.  So here come the shutdowns again....because masks aren't mandatory, and even if they were, people are refusing to wear them and business are refusing to close.  So it is what it is at this point.  I like our governor and think he has done the absolute right things to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed, but the politicization of the virus and mask wearing are continuing to create issues for the hospitals.

100% agreed, but none of the rubes want to talk about that, they just want to bitch about his toilets (which is a valid but hilarious argument, but completely irrelevant)

I agree as well. All of the models show even with just 85% of the American public wearing masks the virus’s spread would be greatly reduced to manageable numbers. Add in good hygiene and the social distancing measures and this thing is manageable.

And that’s been the beef all along. From the top (President) to the local level the leadership on this has been non existent.....or sporadic at Best with conflicting ideologies. The fact that our country didn’t have a unified plan and vision for this is unacceptable. Historically things like this are when the two sides would put aside differences and do what was best for the American people. The fact this was politicized is just a sign of the times and an outright shame.

This whole ordeal has convinced me that such a plan could never exist. Such a plan would require direct orders from the federal government with consequences for not following those orders, and that would never fly. We could have all the plans in place that we want, but there's clearly a large segment of this population that will just straight up refuse to cooperate.

Dude, I've been saying this...It's impossible to control people. You can have the best ideas in the world, yet in practice, Life, Reality, and Nature, takes over and completely puts that Idea to the gutter. That's what Free-Will is.

The book I am currently reading, coincidentally enough, has an example of someone having an idea and Reality completely shitting on the idea.

Quote

Nicolas de Ovando was sent to "restore order to a colonial experiment that had fallen into complete disarray", the "New World", as King Ferdinand reminded to Christopher Columbus' Son, Diego Columbus, " We sent him (Ovando) to that island because of the bad mistakes committed by your father while discharging the office that you currently have; the island was all up in arms, lost, and yielding no benefit."

"Ovandos most important initiative was to distribute the Natives of the island to various encomendereos, or grantess. In effect, such each Spanish grantee was "given" or "entrusted with" a cacique Fulano [so and so] and one hundred Indians, so you can make use of them in your ranches and mines and teach them the things of our holy Catholic Faith. Known distinctively by the two relevant Spanish words Repartimiento and Encomienda.

"Ovando did not intend the Encomiendas  to become a disguise for slavery. He carefully regulated these arrangements, spelling out mutual rights and obligations. To prevent sexual predation, for example, Ovando insisted that prospective encomenderos had to be married, preferably with their wives on the island. Before receiving an encomienda, each grantee had to understand the limits of his authority. He did not own the Indians in any sense of the word and therefore could not sell them or rent them out. In fact, The Indians would continue to live in their own villages under their caciques and by their own rules. The Encomendero did have a right to require labor from the Indians given to him, and he was naturally eager to send them to the mines. But, he had to pay 1 gold Peso per year. The Indians would work in the mines only for a limited period, known as the Demora, which was initially set at six months a year. If the Encomendero failed to abide by these terms, Governor Ovando could take away his encomienda and award it to someone else, a powerful lever in a cutthroat world in which only some Europeans had encomiendas and all others clamored for them."

"By Allowing these caciques and their people to live without Spanish interference, the governor wished to show that Indians were responsible neighbors and upstanding vassals of the empire, entirely capable of charting their own destiny. Unfortunately, reality overwhelmed Ovando's careful plans. Dispersed in five or six hundred small villages, the islanders became easy prey for Spaniards determined to succeed at all costs. Some conquistadors simply enslaved the islanders illegally. Encomienda owners also found ways to get around the restrictions and safeguards...In their haste to obtain gold, the encomenderos pushed the Indians beyond the limits of survival. "The Greed of men is insatiable," commented Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo. "Some owners gave excessive work to the Indians, and others provided them with too little food." Contemporaries spoke of Quebrantamiento, the breaking down of the body, turning laborers into walking cadavers stripped of the will to continue living. Such merciless exploitation was compounded by the constant shifts from one encomendero to another, "One more covetous than the previous one."

"The Encomiendas were granted at Ovando's pleasure and last three years or less. Thus owners had an incentive to get the most out of their Indians, even it that meant passing on famished and exhausted workers to the next encomendero, who repeated the cycle of exploitation with renewed vigor...Ovando himself, realizing the depth of the crisis and the failure of his policies, proposed a dramatic and far-reaching solution: bring Indian slaves from the surrounding islands to work in the gold mines and other endeavors of Espanola. a New chapter in the sad history of the early Caribbean had begun"

Even more coincidentally, it said something I found pretty interesting and related to the Virus and Diseases

Quote

"The shorthand version of the history of the Americas posits that virgin soil epidemics were at the root of the demographic devastation that ensued. However, an exclusively biological explanation is at odds with much of the documentation of that era and runs contrary to the observed adaptability of humans. In the long sweep of history, human populations have survived virgin soil epidemics. The most well-known case is the Black Death. Possibly originating in China and spreading along the silk road, this epidemic arrived in Europe during the second half of the fourteenth century, when devastating outbreaks wiped out perhaps one-third of the continents inhabitants. It is hard to overstate the fear, suffering, and dislocation caused by the Black Death. But it's aftermath shows the resilience of human populations. Europe's losses lingered until the early decades of the fifteenth century, but then the population made a stunning demographic comeback. Men and women kept marrying, enjoyed higher standards of life, and had more children, boosting birthrates all across the continent. The recovery was powerful and long lasting. By the middle of the sixteenth century, all major European regions had reached or surpassed their pre-plague populations. Indeed, we can think of Europe's colonization of the New World as an extension of the remarkable demographic rebound.

Left to their own devices, the Native peoples of the Caribbean would have limited their exposure to illness, coping like many other human populations before and after them. We will never know how many Indians actually died of disease alone. But even if one-third, or two-thirds, of the Caribbean islanders had died of Influenza, typhus, malaria, and smallpox, they would have been able to stem the decline and, in the fullness of time, rebound demographically. In fact, some Indian populations of the New World did just that. But unlike fourteenth-century Europeans, the Natives of the Caribbean were not left to their own devices. In the wake of the epidemics, slavers appeared on the horizon."

I got from that...We have always survived Diseases and Viruses. Many will die, but we will still survive. Is Covid as bad as the Black Plague?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 04:13:13 PM

Of course not, we have science, resources, and vaccines. During the Black Plague they had ignorance and superstition, and they held religious processions that only spread the plague even more, and killed black cats which were natural predators of the rats carrying the diseases.

Even though this time around we did EAT the animals carrying the disease, so live and learn I guess?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 28, 2020, 05:44:21 PM

I am gonna come out with my first prediction post.

In about five to six months, the first several vaccines will come out, covering most countries (but perhaps some countries will have vaccine scandals, where it will turn out they purchased a delayed vaccine candidate, and everyone will be super pissed about them lagging). The way that some or most of them will work is that they will probably just make your symptoms weaker if you end up getting it, and in the first few waves they will be limited to only the elderly, the hospital workers, and people vulnerable to the virus. The definition of "vulnerable to the virus" will definitely be dependent on how generous the country is, and it will get politicized, and we'll have all sorts of bizarre bureaucracy reported in the news, things like cases where a person whose health is in jeopardy in a very specific way that's not deemed serious enough can't get it, but their spouse who has a very mild preexisting condition and a home office job can get one.

All govt officials of all affected countries will come out and say "there, the lockdowns are over! now go out and stimulate the stumbling economy that we did a such a good job of keeping afloat by just... uh... requiring desperate people to still work for a living. but definitely still wear a mask, keep a distance and wash your hands because the danger is not over! but definitely go out! we won!". We'll go on with our lives because we're sick of pandemic living, but kind of bitter because we know now that in the case of a pandemic, the only thing that helps is personal responsibility to the point of germophobia and killing every non-job social contact for a dozen months at a time, and no one in charge can do jack shit to make our lives even slightly easier.

People who didn't get the shots will still get sick and even die for a really long time, but they were just unlucky and it won't happen to us, and we'll talk about that like we talk about someone dropping young of a heart attack - very unfortunate, how good is it that it doesn't happen to most people. At first we'll have domestic + outstanding foreign corona news on the first page, but we won't have special pages dedicated to that anymore. Then just domestic news. Then it will be moved a little bit to the back. Then it will be in the "health" section.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 29, 2020, 02:03:05 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 28, 2020, 05:44:21 PM

We'll go on with our lives because we're sick of pandemic living, but kind of bitter because we know now that in the case of a pandemic, the only thing that helps is personal responsibility to the point of germophobia and killing every non-job social contact for a dozen months at a time, and no one in charge can do jack shit to make our lives even slightly easier.

While this is not exactly and literally a war, we'll have to enter in the frame of mind that the consequences are gonna be like a war. When the Axis powers were defeated in WWII, it wasn't suddenly all rainbows and sunshines - it took years to rebuild nations, repair war damages, and get the economies going.

This time around there won't even be a "Victory day", a defining moment - as you said a vaccine will come, it will slowly prove itself useful, and life will slowly get better, but gradually and over time. And yes, people will have to be responsable and that's what any government, even the most expert ones, will have no control over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 05:38:28 AM

Couple of excellent posts right there.  Just as the rise of the virus is coming in waves, and a zig-zag ebb and flow of increasing cases, I suspect the decline will be the same, and take years (at least).  It's not just 2020 that's sucking ... the decade of the '20s is going to pretty much suck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 29, 2020, 06:22:05 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 05:38:28 AM

Couple of excellent posts right there.  Just as the rise of the virus is coming in waves, and a zig-zag ebb and flow of increasing cases, I suspect the decline will be the same, and take years (at least).  It's not just 2020 that's sucking ... the decade of the '20s is going to pretty much suck.

No doubt. It's the dawn of AI. Super computers will be (already are to an extent) controlling the markets and managing autonomous truck fleets, and we'll be witnessing the collapse of retail on a scale never seen. The divisions pertaining to class will continue to get widen and worsen. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 06:39:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 05:38:28 AM

Couple of excellent posts right there.  Just as the rise of the virus is coming in waves, and a zig-zag ebb and flow of increasing cases, I suspect the decline will be the same, and take years (at least).  It's not just 2020 that's sucking ... the decade of the '20s is going to pretty much suck.

Hell yeah, that's that good old optimism at work! We're barely 9 months into this, it's a little premature to predict the next 10 years eh?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 06:59:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 06:39:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 05:38:28 AM

Couple of excellent posts right there.  Just as the rise of the virus is coming in waves, and a zig-zag ebb and flow of increasing cases, I suspect the decline will be the same, and take years (at least).  It's not just 2020 that's sucking ... the decade of the '20s is going to pretty much suck.

Hell yeah, that's that good old optimism at work! We're barely 9 months into this, it's a little premature to predict the next 10 years eh?

It's neither optimism, or pessimism.  It's actually pragmatism at work.  Given the plight of a global pandemic, and the trends in society (globally... not just in the US), I think - for the foreseeable future - the suckage is going to mostly outweigh the goodness.

:dunno:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 29, 2020, 07:07:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 06:59:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 06:39:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 05:38:28 AM

Couple of excellent posts right there.  Just as the rise of the virus is coming in waves, and a zig-zag ebb and flow of increasing cases, I suspect the decline will be the same, and take years (at least).  It's not just 2020 that's sucking ... the decade of the '20s is going to pretty much suck.

Hell yeah, that's that good old optimism at work! We're barely 9 months into this, it's a little premature to predict the next 10 years eh?

It's neither optimism, or pessimism.  It's actually pragmatism at work.  Given the plight of a global pandemic, and the trends in society (globally... not just in the US), I think - for the foreseeable future - the suckage is going to mostly outweigh the goodness.

:dunno:

I'm not sure how I feel about that.   It is what it is.   Every decade has their issues, and has their advancements.  Do you choose to look back at the 60's and see assassinations and racial discord, or do you look back and see the dawning of scientific and sexual awakening?    What do you see when you look at the 70's and 80's?   

I think the one lesson we get from all this is one that we should have been carrying all along.   You can phrase it how you like; I choose to say "Man plans, and God laughs".  Others say it like John Lennon did, "Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 07:14:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 06:59:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 06:39:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 05:38:28 AM

Couple of excellent posts right there.  Just as the rise of the virus is coming in waves, and a zig-zag ebb and flow of increasing cases, I suspect the decline will be the same, and take years (at least).  It's not just 2020 that's sucking ... the decade of the '20s is going to pretty much suck.

Hell yeah, that's that good old optimism at work! We're barely 9 months into this, it's a little premature to predict the next 10 years eh?

It's neither optimism, or pessimism.  It's actually pragmatism at work.  Given the plight of a global pandemic, and the trends in society (globally... not just in the US), I think - for the foreseeable future - the suckage is going to mostly outweigh the goodness.

:dunno:

A pessimist in 2010 would've said exactly the same thing. *shrug* I don't think having one shitty year with a pandemic is any indicator of the next ten years especially with the countless other surprises in store for us that have no relation to this pandemic. Did bird flu go on for years? Did swine flu? Nope. Even the Spanish flu only ran from 1918 to sometime in 1920.

I dunno. Every year I hear my mom say, "The world is going crazy and coming to an end" and I have to remind her that every generation before her has thought the same thing and that you only think that because you see everything happening around the world during the block of evening news every night, and ask her if she remembers living prior to the advent of 24/7 news... also, bad news and cynicism and fear sells, happiness doesn't. That's why prime time news will spend 56 minutes on all the bullshit in the world and then end it with a 30 second clip of a dog doing something stupid like a flip before saying "have a great night"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on October 29, 2020, 07:28:02 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 29, 2020, 07:07:32 AM

  What do you see when you look at the 70's and 80's?   

 

You're not missing anything! I looked into it. There's a gas shortage and a flock of seagulls. That's about it!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 07:34:59 AM

Quote from: Chino on October 29, 2020, 07:28:02 AM

Quote from: Stadler on October 29, 2020, 07:07:32 AM

  What do you see when you look at the 70's and 80's?   

 

You're not missing anything! I looked into it. There's a gas shortage and a flock of seagulls. That's about it!

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 29, 2020, 08:09:00 AM

It's hard to say the entire 20s will be terrible, but this pandemic is going to turn endemic and not go anywhere, but I do think we gradually see things get better over time.  There will be lots of other things besides covid 19 that will bring the 20s down a peg or two and a bunch of things that bring it up.  I don't see the world economies getting better quickly so it's going to be more painful before it gets better IMO. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 29, 2020, 08:27:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 29, 2020, 08:09:00 AM

It's hard to say the entire 20s will be terrible, but this pandemic is going to turn endemic and not go anywhere, but I do think we gradually see things get better over time.  There will be lots of other things besides covid 19 that will bring the 20s down a peg or two and a bunch of things that bring it up.  I don't see the world economies getting better quickly so it's going to be more painful before it gets better IMO.

I agree, we will first witness the true scope of the (financial) fallout before things get better. But I am fairly optimistic most countries will relapse well.

Different discussion, but based on climate science, I unfortunately think the chance of one of the following decades being much, much more problematic is quite big.  Sure, you can call me a pessimist on that, but if we all think it will be fine we will keep heading for our current course, which according to scientific evidence does not look good. The global answer to covid has actually made me much more pessimistic for our response to climate change than I ever was. I will gladly be wrong on this one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 29, 2020, 08:41:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

Yea, there's lots of reason to be concerned with that stuff, but it doesn't all really relate to covid.  If you watched the Social Dilemma doc on netflix, you could remove covid completely from our lives and those folks seem to think we're going to go into civil war regardless just from the social divide caused by social media.

I'm not saying you are wrong, things look pretty damn bleak, but I'm not ready to say the world is ending.... just yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 08:52:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

cram beat me, but other than the pandemic, these same problems were happening 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc.... years ago. There are a lot of problems out there in the world. There have always been divides. You're right to worry, but absolutely none of this is new or unique to right now. There are a hundred thousands other viruses, worse than this coronavirus, out there waiting for us. This ain't shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 29, 2020, 08:55:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 08:52:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

cram beat me, but other than the pandemic, these same problems were happening 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc.... years ago. There are a lot of problems out there in the world. There have always been divides. You're right to worry, but absolutely none of this is new or unique to right now. There are a hundred thousands other viruses, worse than this coronavirus, out there waiting for us. This ain't shit.

TBH, I'm more worried about the next virus from a wetmarket now.  Like, covid isn't the worst thing we've seen and are going to see IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 09:03:58 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 29, 2020, 08:55:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 08:52:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

cram beat me, but other than the pandemic, these same problems were happening 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc.... years ago. There are a lot of problems out there in the world. There have always been divides. You're right to worry, but absolutely none of this is new or unique to right now. There are a hundred thousands other viruses, worse than this coronavirus, out there waiting for us. This ain't shit.

TBH, I'm more worried about the next virus from a wetmarket now.  Like, covid isn't the worst thing we've seen and are going to see IMO.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0MBc5vt/3093c394a8a02eef1b417f92aefa8b69.jpg)

Billy Mays here with a nice pint of the novel coronavirus! It'll get you sick! You'll be intubated in no time! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! If you order now, you'll get a free sample of our next pandemic, the novel hantavirus! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthohantavirus) Call now!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 29, 2020, 09:05:35 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on October 29, 2020, 08:55:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 08:52:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

cram beat me, but other than the pandemic, these same problems were happening 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc.... years ago. There are a lot of problems out there in the world. There have always been divides. You're right to worry, but absolutely none of this is new or unique to right now. There are a hundred thousands other viruses, worse than this coronavirus, out there waiting for us. This ain't shit.

TBH, I'm more worried about the next virus from a wetmarket now.  Like, covid isn't the worst thing we've seen and are going to see IMO.

On that we're entirely in China's hands. Eating pangolins and bats it's not just a wacky weird habit for them, there's an entire industry and economy behind it that supports millions of people. Only their government will decide if they have to cut down on that or think "eh, we've learnt by now how to monitor pandemics, guess we'll defy the odds and be ready next time", because no amount of international pressure will change that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on October 29, 2020, 09:05:47 AM

uhhhh

Quote

Human infections of hantaviruses have almost entirely been linked to human contact with rodent excrement

please leave the roden poop alone

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 09:06:06 AM

I like that you asked 'please' :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 29, 2020, 09:23:12 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 08:52:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

cram beat me, but other than the pandemic, these same problems were happening 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc.... years ago. There are a lot of problems out there in the world. There have always been divides. You're right to worry, but absolutely none of this is new or unique to right now. There are a hundred thousands other viruses, worse than this coronavirus, out there waiting for us. This ain't shit.

True, but how many of those decades weren't easily described "sucky" for a huge amount of people? There is a difference between "oh no the world is ending" and "well, this sucks". And that offcourse depends on where you live and what your socioeconomic status is. Something not being unique doesn't mean it will be fine, in my opinion.

Look, I will probably be fine and all, but I personally know people still struggling with the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. And hell, there are entire nations still trying to recover from that, more than a decade later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 09:28:41 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on October 29, 2020, 09:23:12 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 08:52:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

cram beat me, but other than the pandemic, these same problems were happening 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc.... years ago. There are a lot of problems out there in the world. There have always been divides. You're right to worry, but absolutely none of this is new or unique to right now. There are a hundred thousands other viruses, worse than this coronavirus, out there waiting for us. This ain't shit.

True, but how many of those decades weren't easily described "sucky" for a huge amount of people? There is a difference between "oh no the world is ending" and "well, this sucks". And that offcourse depends on where you live and what your socioeconomic status is. Something not being unique doesn't mean it will be fine, in my opinion.

Look, I will probably be fine and all, but I personally know people still struggling with the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. And hell, there are entire nations still trying to recover from that, more than a decade later.

Right. But this all just goes back to pessimistic vs optimistic viewpoints. There will never not be a shortage of things to make someone think the world is a dumpster fire or that it's ending or that it's just plain shitty. That doesn't mean it's TRUE, and that doesn't mean the next 10 years can be predicted because of one freak event. Now if the Big Kahuna asteroid hits the planet, you could make a solid prediction for the next 10 years. But we could assume the next 10 years are 'going to be shit' because of a potential 8 years of democrat rule. We could assume the next 10 years are 'going to be shit' because North Korea is still a thing. We could assume the next 10 years are 'going to be shit' because of potential conflicts with China. NONE OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH CORONAVIRUS.

There will ALWAYS be people in shitty situations, there will ALWAYS be people struggling to survive. That doesn't really have anything to do, however, with the point that you can't predict the next 10 years based on one event that really gives NO indicators as to what will happen in any part of the world throughout the decade. In less than a year we nearly have vaccines ready, we have already severely upped our treatment game, it's just silly to act like the sky is falling. Humanity has faced FAR WORSE than covid and not even that long ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 29, 2020, 09:58:42 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 28, 2020, 04:13:13 PM

Of course not, we have science, resources, and vaccines. During the Black Plague they had ignorance and superstition, and they held religious processions that only spread the plague even more, and killed black cats which were natural predators of the rats carrying the diseases.

Even though this time around we did EAT the animals carrying the disease, so live and learn I guess?

So why all the panic? Are we all just waiting for the year to end so we can get the yearly number to compare the data?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 29, 2020, 10:18:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

Exactly, way more to prioritize once, they can get Covid under control. I don't know what they mean by "control", because it's a living thing.

Is it just something we're gonna have to adapt to, and develop protection from over time.

Reminds me of Futurama, when Fry reintroduces the common cold to New New York, as it has been "cured".  The only solution, is to hurl New New York into the sun (they were out of phiranas)....That is until Fry remembers entering a science project and the winners project was a common cold virus he grew, and got launched into space. The crew gets it and the professor makes a vaccine. Saving New New York...

Moral is...Even if we do find a "cure", something can come along and reintroduce the Virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 12:24:16 PM

For clarity... I did not mean to imply that the planet was going to be all Children of Men until December 31st, 2029.  And I didn't limit the reasons to be solely from teh COVID - though, my first two points were b/c of it.  And for the most part, I'm a glass-half-full kinda guy.  I just think there are going to be a lot of lingering and persistent problems stemming from COVID, added on top of the other problems that seem to be escalating at break neck speed... well, that's the reason my optimism isn't overflowing.

And yeah, I have watched The Social Dilemma.  Fascinatingly scary stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Anguyen92 on October 29, 2020, 12:56:11 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 29, 2020, 10:18:37 AM

Exactly, way more to prioritize once, they can get Covid under control. I don't know what they mean by "control", because it's a living thing.

Is it just something we're gonna have to adapt to, and develop protection from over time.

Reminds me of Futurama, when Fry reintroduces the common cold to New New York, as it has been "cured".  The only solution, is to hurl New New York into the sun (they were out of phiranas)....That is until Fry remembers entering a science project and the winners project was a common cold virus he grew, and got launched into space. The crew gets it and the professor makes a vaccine. Saving New New York...

Moral is...Even if we do find a "cure", something can come along and reintroduce the Virus.

If only our current problems requires a solution that shoots a rocket that has a giant ball of garbage.  That would be interesting to endure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on October 29, 2020, 01:01:44 PM

This thread is going to be 1,000 pages long before the thing that would not die....dies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2020, 02:13:35 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 12:24:16 PM

I'm a glass-half-full kinda guy.

I think your account has been hacked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 29, 2020, 02:55:01 PM

Quote from: Anguyen92 on October 29, 2020, 12:56:11 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 29, 2020, 10:18:37 AM

Exactly, way more to prioritize once, they can get Covid under control. I don't know what they mean by "control", because it's a living thing.

Is it just something we're gonna have to adapt to, and develop protection from over time.

Reminds me of Futurama, when Fry reintroduces the common cold to New New York, as it has been "cured".  The only solution, is to hurl New New York into the sun (they were out of phiranas)....That is until Fry remembers entering a science project and the winners project was a common cold virus he grew, and got launched into space. The crew gets it and the professor makes a vaccine. Saving New New York...

Moral is...Even if we do find a "cure", something can come along and reintroduce the Virus.

If only our current problems requires a solution that shoots a rocket that has a giant ball of garbage.  That would be interesting to endure.

But, remember, If you're not a productive member of society and get a career chip installed, you'll be hurled by cannon...Into the Sun. (Now that made me question the bums in Futurama...Is it a career?  :rollin )

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on October 29, 2020, 05:00:17 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 09:28:41 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on October 29, 2020, 09:23:12 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on October 29, 2020, 08:52:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on October 29, 2020, 08:27:07 AM

I guess I'm seeing three major issues not getting better anytime soon, with very real potential of getting worse for more than a couple of years.

COVID / Pandemic itself
Gov't debt and economic issues related to ^
Climate disasters

Societal divide is a biggie too.  And that's just what we know about right now.

Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, it's just how I sees it.

cram beat me, but other than the pandemic, these same problems were happening 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc.... years ago. There are a lot of problems out there in the world. There have always been divides. You're right to worry, but absolutely none of this is new or unique to right now. There are a hundred thousands other viruses, worse than this coronavirus, out there waiting for us. This ain't shit.

True, but how many of those decades weren't easily described "sucky" for a huge amount of people? There is a difference between "oh no the world is ending" and "well, this sucks". And that offcourse depends on where you live and what your socioeconomic status is. Something not being unique doesn't mean it will be fine, in my opinion.

Look, I will probably be fine and all, but I personally know people still struggling with the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. And hell, there are entire nations still trying to recover from that, more than a decade later.

Right. But this all just goes back to pessimistic vs optimistic viewpoints. There will never not be a shortage of things to make someone think the world is a dumpster fire or that it's ending or that it's just plain shitty. That doesn't mean it's TRUE, and that doesn't mean the next 10 years can be predicted because of one freak event. Now if the Big Kahuna asteroid hits the planet, you could make a solid prediction for the next 10 years. But we could assume the next 10 years are 'going to be shit' because of a potential 8 years of democrat rule. We could assume the next 10 years are 'going to be shit' because North Korea is still a thing. We could assume the next 10 years are 'going to be shit' because of potential conflicts with China. NONE OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH CORONAVIRUS.

There will ALWAYS be people in shitty situations, there will ALWAYS be people struggling to survive. That doesn't really have anything to do, however, with the point that you can't predict the next 10 years based on one event that really gives NO indicators as to what will happen in any part of the world throughout the decade. In less than a year we nearly have vaccines ready, we have already severely upped our treatment game, it's just silly to act like the sky is falling. Humanity has faced FAR WORSE than covid and not even that long ago.

I don't really disagree in context of the entire world and all of it's disasters. In my day to day life I am definitely not being very pessimistic or anything, but I do think on average the coming decade or so will likely be shittier than the ones I experienced before it due to this crisis. It for sure is the worst crisis I have witnessed over here in my life thus far. Hence me using the "shitty" description. Also keep in mind this is in the context of living in a country with one of the highest average living standards of the world.

So no, I absolutely don't mean that day to day life will for sure be bad for everyone or something. I just feel there will be quite some additional challenges for a lot of my loved ones/friends that will linger for a longer time. Never have I known so many people without work and it is kind of scary to be honest. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 30, 2020, 07:23:28 AM

Some of this is perception, though; we (humans) fear the unknown.   Think back to the late 60's, early 70's, and think how many songs reference or talk about the "shadow of the mushroom cloud".  It was before my time, but certainly my parents remember "air raid drills" where you heard the siren and you ducked under the desk.   Here in the northeast, there are numerous sites we call "Nike sites", Cold War era early-warning missile sites that are now parks, and softball fields and daycare centers.  Some of that seems paranoid and excessive now.

Every decade is, to some degree or another, better than the one that came before and worse than the one that came before.  There have been books written on the metamorphosis from the Summer Of Love in '67, to the dark days of the early 70's (Vietnam, the post-script of the killing of King and Bobby Kennedy, the breakup of the Beatles)...

I'm not arguing with anyone here, I'm just saying that some of it is impossible to really get a handle on while you're in the middle of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on October 30, 2020, 09:09:45 AM

Well, technology and civil rights have always gradually advanced, and probably 50-100 years from now people will look back at our era and think we were backward assholes for reasons that, to us, appear completely normal and rational. A random thought, the other day on Reddit someone asked "You suddenly wake up in 1950, what do you do?".... so many replies were along the lines of "I'm black, guess I'm screwed".  As bad are social tensions right now, slavery is history and there was a black president in the USA. Maybe the first openly gay USA president has already been born, who knows.

For all we know, people in 2100 will think "Those people of 100 years ago are lucky, they got a pandemic that, sure, was serious and deadly, but they got over it in less than three years. We have actually seen the ice caps melt away and now there are millions and millions of people running away from inhabitable zones and these mass migrations are bringing the whole world to the brink of another global war".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on October 30, 2020, 09:22:23 AM

A cousin in his late 60s died a week ago.  Hadn't taken the best care of himself over the years, and he was an anti-masker.  Cie la vie.

One of my twin nieces has C-19......for the second time!

She finally regained most of her endurance after two months, went back to work part time, and in less than two weeks.....

She does 'music therapy', so some of her 'clients' and situations could be considered higher risk.  We do wonder if she thought she was immune having had it before, and was a bit more care free in precautions taken.

Reading recent comments, when the 'Futurama' posts were made, I thought to myself along the lines of 'just think of the genius who would think of reducing your chances of contacting it by 600%, and it's not some potion or ray gun or odd ball diet, but wearing a simple mask, washing hands, and standing apart'. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on October 30, 2020, 10:22:32 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 30, 2020, 09:09:45 AM

Well, technology and civil rights have always gradually advanced, and probably 50-100 years from now people will look back at our era and think we were backward assholes for reasons that, to us, appear completely normal and rational. A random thought, the other day on Reddit someone asked "You suddenly wake up in 1950, what do you do?".... so many replies were along the lines of "I'm black, guess I'm screwed".  As bad are social tensions right now, slavery is history and there was a black president in the USA. Maybe the first openly gay USA president has already been born, who knows.

For all we know, people in 2100 will think "Those people of 100 years ago are lucky, they got a pandemic that, sure, was serious and deadly, but they got over it in less than three years. We have actually seen the ice caps melt away and now there are millions and millions of people running away from inhabitable zones and these mass migrations are bringing the whole world to the brink of another global war".

Honestly?   I am 100% being serious here, but I feel it's similar odds that someone will wake up in 2112 and be just as likely to say "wow, those fuckers in 2020, with the social media; how could they NOT see that was going to destroy their society?" as they will "wow, those fuckers in 2020, with the COVID; how could they NOT see that was going to destroy their society?"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on October 30, 2020, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: Stadler on October 30, 2020, 10:22:32 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 30, 2020, 09:09:45 AM

Well, technology and civil rights have always gradually advanced, and probably 50-100 years from now people will look back at our era and think we were backward assholes for reasons that, to us, appear completely normal and rational. A random thought, the other day on Reddit someone asked "You suddenly wake up in 1950, what do you do?".... so many replies were along the lines of "I'm black, guess I'm screwed".  As bad are social tensions right now, slavery is history and there was a black president in the USA. Maybe the first openly gay USA president has already been born, who knows.

For all we know, people in 2100 will think "Those people of 100 years ago are lucky, they got a pandemic that, sure, was serious and deadly, but they got over it in less than three years. We have actually seen the ice caps melt away and now there are millions and millions of people running away from inhabitable zones and these mass migrations are bringing the whole world to the brink of another global war".

Honestly?   I am 100% being serious here, but I feel it's similar odds that someone will wake up in 2112 and be just as likely to say "wow, those fuckers in 2020, with the social media; how could they NOT see that was going to destroy their society?" as they will "wow, those fuckers in 2020, with the COVID; how could they NOT see that was going to destroy their society?"

We need someone to assume control.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on October 30, 2020, 03:13:04 PM

ATTENTION ALL PLANETS OF THE SOLAR FEDERATION!!!

ATTENTION ALL PLANETS OF THE SOLAR FEDERATION!!!

ATTENTION ALL PLANETS OF THE SOLAR FEDERATION!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on October 30, 2020, 06:46:41 PM

My aunt's funeral was today.  She died of non-COVID reasons last weekend, but it was the first time the majority of my extended family was in the same place for a very long time.  The church required masks, and everyone wore one, even outside when in close quarters.  The church also had hand sanitizer up the wazoo, and we were all given some before taking communion.  We were also  required to sign in for potential contract tracing purposes.  There was plenty of room in the church for those that did not want to sit close to anyone.  I was really impressed by how the church handled things.

My cousin from Wisconsin was exposed earlier this week and has tested negative, but is still supposed to be "in quarantine."  He bowed out of being a pallbearer and remained socially distant, which was nice.  I was pallbearer along with my dad and brother, and three other extended family members.  I hugged my mom and one or two cousins, but that's all.  It was strange to be around everyone and not be as close as you normally would be. 

It was good to see some family members that I rarely see and the "normal" activity was a nice change of pace, despite the COVID requirements and the sad reason for having to be there. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on October 30, 2020, 06:51:22 PM

Quote from: Grappler on October 30, 2020, 06:46:41 PM

My aunt's funeral was today. 

Sorry to hear that, Grap.

Quote from: DragonAttack on October 30, 2020, 09:22:23 AM

A cousin in his late 60s died a week ago.  Hadn't taken the best care of himself over the years, and he was an anti-masker.  Cie la vie.

One of my twin nieces has C-19......for the second time!

She finally regained most of her endurance after two months, went back to work part time, and in less than two weeks.....
 

Damn, Joe! WTF??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on October 30, 2020, 07:18:16 PM

Grapper, sounds like everyone, from the church to the guests, handled everything with grace and reason. If only the country could take a lesson....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 02, 2020, 01:45:48 PM

We'll be locked down again here in the states within...60 days at the outside.  No way they can just let this thing run wild all winter, we'll have half a million people dead by spring.


Restaurants, gyms, hair and nail salons, etc..all going to be closing down again in the US.  It's not a matter of "if" but more a matter of "when"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 02, 2020, 02:06:15 PM

The spike in our county is out of sight! Our CIO says work from home where possible and masks are required if you leave your cube or office. We had our first death in IT. People are just not taking it seriously and I think it's from opening up the schools.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 02, 2020, 02:09:38 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 02, 2020, 02:06:15 PM

The spike in our county is out of sight! Our CIO says work from home where possible and masks are required if you leave your cube or office. We had our first death in IT. People are just not taking it seriously and I think it's from opening up the schools.

There's plenty of blame to lay on the adults as well. My FB and IG feeds this past weekend were filled with fully grown adults (many 40+) who just had to hit the bars and breweries dressed up in costumes for Halloween. I've seen pictures from bars that you would have thought were from Halloween last year given the lack of masks and how shoulder-to-shoulder everyone was. It's kind of infuriating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 02, 2020, 02:27:36 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 02, 2020, 02:06:15 PM

The spike in our county is out of sight! Our CIO says work from home where possible and masks are required if you leave your cube or office. We had our first death in IT. People are just not taking it seriously and I think it's from opening up the schools.

I shared an article here before and here it is again, it's the only thing I've seen showing data on school openings and it suggests that it is NOT the reason for spreading of covid.  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-arent-superspreaders/616669/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-arent-superspreaders/616669/)

I think that most of the places that are open, are only open because they can follow guidelines and when the guidelines are followed, the spread is greatly slowed down.  That's my opinion.  It seems most spread are from people indoors who live together (and therefor, don't social distance).  But obviously it only takes one person to not follow guidelines and bring the disease home to spread. 

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 02, 2020, 01:45:48 PM

We'll be locked down again here in the states within...60 days at the outside.  No way they can just let this thing run wild all winter, we'll have half a million people dead by spring.


Restaurants, gyms, hair and nail salons, etc..all going to be closing down again in the US.  It's not a matter of "if" but more a matter of "when"

I don't see it happening unless the hospitalizations are reaching a breaking point again.  If they do, we'll be shut down for sure, but I'm not seeing the data personally that shows hospitals across the US reaching that point to require a shutdown.  It seems most cases lead to people just staying home to recover.  My little sister, husband, and children all got COVID from the step son getting it from the step father and then brought it into my sisters home.  The child had a fever for 10 days, everyone else had more mild symptoms, and they've all tested negative as of last week. 

Of course, with a potential change in leadership, we could also see a different approach in 2021.  Who knows really.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 02, 2020, 02:47:40 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 02, 2020, 02:27:36 PM

I don't see it happening unless the hospitalizations are reaching a breaking point again.  If they do, we'll be shut down for sure, but I'm not seeing the data personally that shows hospitals across the US reaching that point to require a shutdown.  It seems most cases lead to people just staying home to recover.  My little sister, husband, and children all got COVID from the step son getting it from the step father and then brought it into my sisters home.  The child had a fever for 10 days, everyone else had more mild symptoms, and they've all tested negative as of last week. 

This. The 'shut down' was never intended for people not to contract covid-19.....it was to try and limit the infections so the hospitals weren't over run. I know 9 people who've had it in the past few weeks and it was just as Marc mentioned.....stay quarantined....recover and then your back on your way. The 220K+ deaths from this are horrible and I truly feel for those families but in large those deaths were all covid mixed with other health complications. It's a RARE instance that it's covid and only covid that's killing you. The vulnerable would still need to protect themselves and those who know they're going to come in contact with that subset of the population have a responsibility as well....but shutting down the country and economy again is the wrong answer.

A mask mandate for everyone.....stern social distancing precautions and a focus on hygiene would do the trick. An outright shut down like we saw before just isn't necessary. Perhaps Biden can relay the importance of the masks and precautions better than trump and 'lead' us to just take the basic measures which most projections show would do the trick in slowing the spread to a very low rate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 02, 2020, 03:25:39 PM

I agree, a nationwide shutdown (anywhere - US, Canada, Europe...) only addresses the physical distancing part of the equation.  Better contact tracing is necessary.  This thing is spreading in the Northern Hemisphere because we're indoors more.  Mask up, mother-fuckers!!  Don't fucking socialize like it's 1999!!  We had a politician in my region go to a family reunion at an indoor banquet hall, and the ass-clown posted pictures on FB.  40+ people posing for a group photo, huddled together and not a single mask.  What the fuck are people not getting.  Sure, hospital treatments are getting better, but case counts are thru the roof.  It's only a matter of math and time before the deaths follow.

It's going to take human actions to limit the spread of this.  Reminder everyone... the virus doesn't travel on it's own.  We're the ones that fucking move it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 02, 2020, 03:33:10 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 02, 2020, 03:25:39 PM

I agree, a nationwide shutdown (anywhere - US, Canada, Europe...) only addresses the physical distancing part of the equation.  Better contact tracing is necessary. 

Well, but the two things are correlated - everybody's on lockdown, cases go down, hospitals can breathe (as gmillerdrake pointed out) AND you can do contact tracing which is impossible with 20K cases every day. With the number of infections low, you can trace everything.

Insight is.... well, 2020, but I think that this summer the virus should have been killed. I know, people needed to get out, the economy needed to start again and so the tourism industry, but maybe it would have been better to completely sacrifice this summer with closed borders everywhere, and hunting down every single infection until the number was brought down to 0.

I've read an interview of an italian man working in Melbourne, he said that the governor promised the end of the lockdown with 0 cases, and when there was 5 cases in a town of 5 millions people, he still wouldn't lift the lockdown. He lifted it when they finally reached zero.

Of course this is a case by case scenario, but setting aside the most difficult thing of it all - the right balance between safety and people making a living - as I said I trully wish we had sacrificed the entire summer with no holidays and no trips (It seems that a new strain of the virus originated in Spain and was brought all around Europe thanks to the holidays) just to get rid of it once and for all.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 02, 2020, 02:47:40 PM

A mask mandate for everyone.....stern social distancing precautions and a focus on hygiene would do the trick. An outright shut down like we saw before just isn't necessary. Perhaps Biden can relay the importance of the masks and precautions better than trump and 'lead' us to just take the basic measures which most projections show would do the trick in slowing the spread to a very low rate.

To understand the equation "Respiratory disease > it comes from the mouth > cover your mouth" you don't need a good president. You need two goddamn working braincells.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 02, 2020, 03:43:39 PM

if this thing didn't get under control when everyone was pissing themselves and the weather was getting warm, it sure is not getting under control during flu season and cold weather

RIP bars/restaurants/concert venues/basically all live entertainment

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on November 02, 2020, 04:05:21 PM

So here's a fun quandry:  My daughter is currently away at college and will be coming home for Thanksgiving.  Unlike many families that are opting to not get together for the holidays at all, we don't really have much choice because the college is closing down from two days before Thanksgiving until after New Year's.  The rest of the semester will be remote only.  The idea is that they don't want everyone going home and then bringing all the germs back with them.  Which is fucking stupid because if that's the idea, then they shouldn't have opened in the fall in the first place.  But this is what we have.

She was home for a while in the spring, which made me nervous but we got through it, and she went back for the summer.  But now that the numbers are up, higher than ever before, this is downright scary.

Our house is not huge.  It's not like I can close off a wing of the house and confine her to it for 10 days or 14 days or whatever it's supposed to be.  I'm trying to figure out the logistics of even trying to reduce exposure (because every little bit helps, right?) while she's living in the same house.  Make her stay in her room as much as possible?  Buy a few of those heavy-duty air purifiers and run them 24/7?

I'm open to suggestions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 02, 2020, 05:28:00 PM

Just read an article a bit ago (and of course, can't find it now) that was suggesting even wearing a mask in your own home if someone might have been exposed.  Sounds shitty, but there's a suggestion for you or maybe she can just get a test?  Put your mind at ease.

For me, it looks like I'll be spending Thanksgiving alone.  My parents want me to come to Florida but I don't think so.  My sister will be driving down with my nieces after Thanksgiving and staying at my parents for awhile as my older sister and her husband are still down there.  Which means almost all of my family will be in Florida for Christmas and they want me to fly down.  I'm contemplating it.  My friends keep sharing articles with me showing that flying is fairly safe these days.  I've just been really good with following guidelines.  I want concerts back, I want to do my part to get us all there sooner, but I do not want to spend Christmas alone as well.  I told them to wait and see after the election, who knows what's going to happen in this country.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 02, 2020, 05:35:38 PM

If I'm wrong, it's on me, because I was cooking at the time, but I'm pretty sure my governor recommended masks at home for the Thanksgiving meal, except while eating and drinking.   That's whack.   If you're not wearing a mask at Walmart, what are the odds you're wearing one in your living room? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 02, 2020, 06:00:12 PM

Quote from: Orbert on November 02, 2020, 04:05:21 PM

So here's a fun quandry:  My daughter is currently away at college and will be coming home for Thanksgiving.  Unlike many families that are opting to not get together for the holidays at all, we don't really have much choice because the college is closing down from two days before Thanksgiving until after New Year's.  The rest of the semester will be remote only.  The idea is that they don't want everyone going home and then bringing all the germs back with them.  Which is fucking stupid because if that's the idea, then they shouldn't have opened in the fall in the first place.  But this is what we have.

She was home for a while in the spring, which made me nervous but we got through it, and she went back for the summer.  But now that the numbers are up, higher than ever before, this is downright scary.

Our house is not huge.  It's not like I can close off a wing of the house and confine her to it for 10 days or 14 days or whatever it's supposed to be.  I'm trying to figure out the logistics of even trying to reduce exposure (because every little bit helps, right?) while she's living in the same house.  Make her stay in her room as much as possible?  Buy a few of those heavy-duty air purifiers and run them 24/7?

I'm open to suggestions.

Can you take her for a test? Just to clear everyone's minds?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 02, 2020, 06:08:10 PM

Orbert, I would address with her what her two weeks prior to coming home would look like. Who will she be interacting with, will they be wearing masks... basically stuff I consider prior to associating with anyone. My dad is retired and doesn't go anywhere other than for groceries and home improvement stores, and always wears a mask. My mom works at an ob/gyn clinic and they are fully decked out in PPE. Otherwise they do not go anywhere or see anyone, other than us, so I am not thinking twice about driving to their house for Thanksgiving. 

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 02, 2020, 03:33:10 PM

Insight is.... well, 2020, but I think that this summer the virus should have been killed. I know, people needed to get out, the economy needed to start again and so the tourism industry, but maybe it would have been better to completely sacrifice this summer with closed borders everywhere, and hunting down every single infection until the number was brought down to 0.

I don't remotely understand how viruses and such work, but wouldn't that require every single person on the planet not leaving their homes, meaning no manufacturing, no farming, no food distribution, no mail... literally everyone never crossing their threshold for a period of several weeks? There is no other way this virus could be" killed."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 02, 2020, 06:17:27 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 02, 2020, 06:08:10 PM

Orbert, I would address with her what her two weeks prior to coming home would look like. Who will she be interacting with, will they be wearing masks... basically stuff I consider prior to associating with anyone.

Yeah that's a good idea. Remind her that whatever she has, she's bringing home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on November 02, 2020, 06:24:31 PM

Both Sweden and the UK are rapidly increasing in rates. I'm increasingly pessimistic about being able to travel home for Christmas this year (even if I could, my parents are late 60s, I'm not going to subject them to the increased risk of catching it by travelling through an airport at christmas). Will be my first Christmas alone if it turns out that way...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on November 02, 2020, 08:52:16 PM

Quote from: TAC on November 02, 2020, 06:17:27 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 02, 2020, 06:08:10 PM

Orbert, I would address with her what her two weeks prior to coming home would look like. Who will she be interacting with, will they be wearing masks... basically stuff I consider prior to associating with anyone.

Yeah that's a good idea. Remind her that whatever she has, she's bringing home.

I like that.  She can at least minimize her chances of exposure prior to coming home, which in turn minimizes her chances of bringing anything home with her.  And my employer is offerring free testing for employees and family members.  I still have to read up on what's required, but here's the catch.  She's flying in from a state which our state has on its "risk list" or whatever you call it.  If she flies in, she's supposed to self-quarrantine at home for 14 days.  Does that mean she's not supposed to leave the house even for testing?

And if we take her for a test, I'm sure there's at least a basic questionnaire and it will come out that she just flew in from Virginia, and didn't stay home for 14 days.  What does that mean?  Does she go to jail?  Get a fine?  Because it doesn't make any sense to me to wait 14 days to take the test.  By then, we'll know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 03, 2020, 01:14:07 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 02, 2020, 06:08:10 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 02, 2020, 03:33:10 PM

Insight is.... well, 2020, but I think that this summer the virus should have been killed. I know, people needed to get out, the economy needed to start again and so the tourism industry, but maybe it would have been better to completely sacrifice this summer with closed borders everywhere, and hunting down every single infection until the number was brought down to 0.

I don't remotely understand how viruses and such work, but wouldn't that require every single person on the planet not leaving their homes, meaning no manufacturing, no farming, no food distribution, no mail... literally everyone never crossing their threshold for a period of several weeks? There is no other way this virus could be" killed."

Yeah, maybe a full prolonged lockdown would have killed the entire economy of the world, what I really meant is that the summer was a "free for all" environment, at least in Italy tourist destinations were full, people were travelling - and I've read yesterday that maybe this strand of virus going on in Europe originated in Spain and was brought around by tourists.

As I said, after sacrificing the entire spring, people needed to get out for their own sanity and for the economy (bars, restaurants and hotels). But if this summer was made into a "no fun" summer, and people could still work but not move around that much (in Italy they opened the discos, geez), maybe the numbers would have been brought down even lower to the point that tracing cases would have been even easier.

There was a time in Italy where selected regions had ZERO cases. Not a single one. If nobody moved around that much in those regions, maybe it would have been easier to keep it that way, but as I said - you need the tourism economy to restart as well at a certain point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 03, 2020, 06:04:46 AM

It's becoming increasingly clear that lockdowns and masks aren't going to stop Covid. Places with much stricter lockdowns than the US are seeing it bounce back. The only thing that will stop this is herd immunity either through a vaccine or the old fashioned way. Personally, I'm not hanging my hat on a vaccine anytime soon. Lock up those at high risk and let it run its course through healthy people. Lockdown areas if hospitals are nearing capacity. Keep some restrictions and limit capacity, but otherwise let people get on with their lives.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 03, 2020, 06:11:32 AM

Quote from: Orbert on November 02, 2020, 08:52:16 PM

I like that.  She can at least minimize her chances of exposure prior to coming home, which in turn minimizes her chances of bringing anything home with her.  And my employer is offerring free testing for employees and family members.  I still have to read up on what's required, but here's the catch.  She's flying in from a state which our state has on its "risk list" or whatever you call it.  If she flies in, she's supposed to self-quarrantine at home for 14 days.  Does that mean she's not supposed to leave the house even for testing?

And if we take her for a test, I'm sure there' at least a basic questionnaire and it will come out that she just flew in from Virginia, and didn't stay home for 14 days.  What does that mean?  Does she go to jail?  Get a fine?  Because it doesn't make any sense to me to wait 14 days to take the test.  By then, we'll know.

I would think she could leave for a test.  The idea is for her to lay low at home and not be out and about in public, where she could potentially spread the virus.  Does suburban Cook County have the self-quarantine?  I thought it was just the City of Chicago.

Check your county health department's website for more info. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 03, 2020, 06:37:04 AM

Yeah, well. Melbourne needed four months non stop of one of the world's strictest lockdowns to bring cases to zero. Serbia had one of the strictest lockdowns in the spring and cases started rising again as soon as it was lifted, because it turns out that, if you require people to go to work and get their own groceries and PPE, if the density of the population is large enough, people will still get infected in stores and on public transport. And if you want them to stay indoors all the time when they're not working, they will infect all the members of their household, because of course they will, in most families there's four or five people living in one 50m2 apartment. Months upon months of that, and it's not a shock someone wants to travel, because what is the difference between sitting in your own apartment and going out for groceries and sitting in the local park at night, vs traveling 45 min in a half-empty plane (where everyone is masked up, unlike your crammed local bus) to a hotel room where you'll also go out for groceries and go out to a beach, out in the open.

Lockdowns are for places that aren't densely populated, because that's the only shot you got to bring infections close to zero, and you'd have to do them for several months, and people have lives that can't be paused for that long. Maybe early on in the crisis, people would have been more receptive to that, now a lockdown would at best be accepted begrudgingly. If there's no pause button on my rent, then there can't be a pause button on whether I go back home to visit my family again, as long as there's a plane willing to take me there. And if there's no pause button on the bar owner's/gym owner's rent, people should still go to bars if they are open, so that the bar owner can at least afford the added cost of disinfectant sprays and masks and added labor by staff. If the government is happy to pay for the costs for every bar or venue they close, then close them, but instead they were "kept open" all this time, so now the govt is not responsible if no one wants to go there and there's no events that can be safely put on in venues, and they have to close forever. If they are just forced to close during the year due to bad business, you owe them nothing. And if people do go there, then you can yell at them for not being responsible and spreading the disease during a news conference, even though there's no way to go out to eat/drink and keep your mask on the entire time. Whatever happens, it's just the people who are to blame.

There are limits to personal responsibility. As I said before, the only actually responsible thing to do is to not see anyone at all or go anywhere where you have to sit in a closed space for a while. In March that wasn't a daunting proposition, we were all shopping in advance, working from home, seeing each other over Zoom, talking about when this will all be over. Now, when we haven't seen anyone, most of us have actually sacrificed a year of travel plans and event attending plans and life plans overall, and we're looking at a year more of this, and there is still a big chance of getting infected because the only counter-measure on the table is "everyone buys their own cloths to wear over their mouths and nose and we lock down when things get really bad", I don't wanna pin this on "people going out partying and not wearing their masks and not being willing to sacrifice just one measly summer". In Germany and France there was a lot of mask wearing and personal responsibility and look at what's happening there now. That's like one bit of the picture, the other bit is that we have no counter-measures that aren't literally from 1918, and pardon me for showing my leftist ass here outside of P/R, but global capitalism hasn't exactly sprung up to come up with all these innovative technological solutions to ease a crisis like this, like we kept hearing it would in the 2010's TED Talks about hypothetical pandemic responses. A speed test was invented in August, and in a lot of countries they don't have one available for people who need them (which would solve a lot of office problems - get tested at the door, go to your factory job if you're negative), but of course freaking Kendall Jenner can get a hundred of those to throw a party. We can't even solve the problem of temporary loneliness.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 03, 2020, 06:50:04 AM

You make good points. Obviously there isn't a recipe that works for everyone because every nation has a different density of population, healthcare system, general wellbeing (or lack of) of the population etc etc so what proves good somewhere, would not work somewhere else. No one has found magic in a bottle and discovered the perfect way to balance safety and the need for lives to go on. But I'm afraid that we'll have to accept that this is no longer a case of "Well, we'll spend spring locked down and then back to business as usual" (if that wasn't abundantly clear already) and if needs be, we'll have to be cautious this winter, next spring, and next summer again (with the seemingly impossible balance to find between physical and mental sanity, some good moments and some renounces), until it will go away somehow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 03, 2020, 07:29:38 AM

@Orbert....

Is it possible if she can take a test there, and then fly home?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 03, 2020, 07:33:47 AM

Quote from: TAC on October 30, 2020, 06:51:22 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on October 30, 2020, 09:22:23 AM

A cousin in his late 60s died a week ago.  Hadn't taken the best care of himself over the years, and he was an anti-masker.  Cie la vie.

One of my twin nieces has C-19......for the second time!

She finally regained most of her endurance after two months, went back to work part time, and in less than two weeks.....
 

Damn, Joe! WTF??

Yeah, Tim, it is a WTF?  She has Lupus, which makes her more succeptable we guess.  Of all things, she's been taking hydroxychloroquine for a long time.  The irony....

At least our two neighbors who had it are better.  Both in their 50s, much more active and healthier than us.  The husband spent five days in acute care.  Stamina and breathing normal are still issues for him.

TMI perhaps, but I'm going in for a colonoscopy tomorrow.  Yes I'm concerned due to C19.  Quite concerned.  For me and my wife.  Then again, how symbolic of this whole year (plural) that this will be, as well as the chance to 'purge' it out of my system tonight. ;) :sad:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 03, 2020, 07:36:32 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 03, 2020, 01:14:07 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 02, 2020, 06:08:10 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 02, 2020, 03:33:10 PM

Insight is.... well, 2020, but I think that this summer the virus should have been killed. I know, people needed to get out, the economy needed to start again and so the tourism industry, but maybe it would have been better to completely sacrifice this summer with closed borders everywhere, and hunting down every single infection until the number was brought down to 0.

I don't remotely understand how viruses and such work, but wouldn't that require every single person on the planet not leaving their homes, meaning no manufacturing, no farming, no food distribution, no mail... literally everyone never crossing their threshold for a period of several weeks? There is no other way this virus could be" killed."

Yeah, maybe a full prolonged lockdown would have killed the entire economy of the world, what I really meant is that the summer was a "free for all" environment, at least in Italy tourist destinations were full, people were travelling - and I've read yesterday that maybe this strand of virus going on in Europe originated in Spain and was brought around by tourists.

As I said, after sacrificing the entire spring, people needed to get out for their own sanity and for the economy (bars, restaurants and hotels). But if this summer was made into a "no fun" summer, and people could still work but not move around that much (in Italy they opened the discos, geez), maybe the numbers would have been brought down even lower to the point that tracing cases would have been even easier.

There was a time in Italy where selected regions had ZERO cases. Not a single one. If nobody moved around that much in those regions, maybe it would have been easier to keep it that way, but as I said - you need the tourism economy to restart as well at a certain point.

That's how the virus was spread. From Residents, Tourists, Visitors, leaving China and taking it home with them. Why else did it come here from the West Coast, and in Washington State. Then the Residents, Tourists, and Visitors from there then drove/flew throughout the state. All this happened before we knew of the 1st Case in the U.S. There could have been nothing we could have done, if it was already here before we had knowledge of a covid case being known...

So closing the borders, wouldn't have helped at all, since it was already here.

Knowing this, the lockdowns were only meant as means to keep us from overworking the hospitals. That is all...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 03, 2020, 07:43:01 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on November 03, 2020, 07:33:47 AM

Quote from: TAC on October 30, 2020, 06:51:22 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on October 30, 2020, 09:22:23 AM

A cousin in his late 60s died a week ago.  Hadn't taken the best care of himself over the years, and he was an anti-masker.  Cie la vie.

One of my twin nieces has C-19......for the second time!

She finally regained most of her endurance after two months, went back to work part time, and in less than two weeks.....
 

Damn, Joe! WTF??

Yeah, Tim, it is a WTF?  She has Lupus, which makes her more succeptable we guess.  Of all things, she's been taking hydroxychloroquine for a long time.  The irony....

At least our two neighbors who had it are better.  Both in their 50s, much more active and healthier than us.  The husband spent five days in acute care.  Stamina and breathing normal are still issues for him.

TMI perhaps, but I'm going in for a colonoscopy tomorrow.  Yes I'm concerned due to C19.  Quite concerned.  For me and my wife.  Then again, how symbolic of this whole year (plural) that this will be, as well as the chance to 'purge' it out of my system tonight. ;) :sad:

Damn man...good luck on the procedure, I always thought the prep was the worst part. Hopefully the election goes the same way...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 03, 2020, 08:09:03 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on November 03, 2020, 07:33:47 AM

Quote from: TAC on October 30, 2020, 06:51:22 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on October 30, 2020, 09:22:23 AM

A cousin in his late 60s died a week ago.  Hadn't taken the best care of himself over the years, and he was an anti-masker.  Cie la vie.

One of my twin nieces has C-19......for the second time!

She finally regained most of her endurance after two months, went back to work part time, and in less than two weeks.....
 

Damn, Joe! WTF??

Yeah, Tim, it is a WTF?  She has Lupus, which makes her more succeptable we guess.  Of all things, she's been taking hydroxychloroquine for a long time.  The irony....

At least our two neighbors who had it are better.  Both in their 50s, much more active and healthier than us.  The husband spent five days in acute care.  Stamina and breathing normal are still issues for him.

TMI perhaps, but I'm going in for a colonoscopy tomorrow.  Yes I'm concerned due to C19.  Quite concerned.  For me and my wife.  Then again, how symbolic of this whole year (plural) that this will be, as well as the chance to 'purge' it out of my system tonight. ;) :sad:

I don't think the Hydroxy would help her fight the virus if she has Lupus. It's likely why she's still catching the virus. Was she admitted to the hospital? or just fought it off at home?

And, just don't have too much worry, too much worry can cause sickness.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 03, 2020, 09:48:47 AM

The concerns are, of course, due to the environment I'll be in.  I had two minor surgeries this year, plus a dentist visit, all the safeguards were in place, but there's always the added bit of anxiety that comes into play.  I'll also semi-isolate for a few days afterwards. 

It's the second time I've had 'brain surgery'.  :D   My car runs better after an oil change and transmission flush, so.......it will also force me to isolate myself away from the TV for the vast majority of the evening.  'my music player' and headphones are ready.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on November 03, 2020, 09:55:08 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 03, 2020, 08:09:03 AM

And, just don't have too much worry, too much worry can cause sickness.

It's cool that you've found such peace in all of this, but simply telling people to not worry is worth absolutely nothing in the slightest and doesn't accomplish anything. People aren't worrying because they want to worry, they just are. It's not a switch they can turn off. It's not like they'll be like "Wait...you mean DON'T worry? Why.....why I never thought of that before!"


Sorry if that was snarky. Every day I try to help people who feel misunderstood by a world that just tells them to stop feeling whatever it is that’s bothering them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 03, 2020, 11:34:39 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 02, 2020, 02:09:38 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 02, 2020, 02:06:15 PM

The spike in our county is out of sight! Our CIO says work from home where possible and masks are required if you leave your cube or office. We had our first death in IT. People are just not taking it seriously and I think it's from opening up the schools.

There's plenty of blame to lay on the adults as well. My FB and IG feeds this past weekend were filled with fully grown adults (many 40+) who just had to hit the bars and breweries dressed up in costumes for Halloween. I've seen pictures from bars that you would have thought were from Halloween last year given the lack of masks and how shoulder-to-shoulder everyone was. It's kind of infuriating.

Only kind of?  These idiots are putting everyone around them at risk.  Every last one of them is an asshole.  Full stop.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 03, 2020, 12:09:25 PM

Quote from: Adami on November 03, 2020, 09:55:08 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 03, 2020, 08:09:03 AM

And, just don't have too much worry, too much worry can cause sickness.

It's cool that you've found such peace in all of this, but simply telling people to not worry is worth absolutely nothing in the slightest and doesn't accomplish anything. People aren't worrying because they want to worry, they just are. It's not a switch they can turn off. It's not like they'll be like "Wait...you mean DON'T worry? Why.....why I never thought of that before!"


Sorry if that was snarky. Every day I try to help people who feel misunderstood by a world that just tells them to stop feeling whatever it is that’s bothering them.

Obviously just saying it won't change someone's feelings (reminds me of telling a previous gf to "relax" and it only made things 10 times worse  :lol) but from your experience, can you work with people to get them to stop worrying about things that aren't in their control?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 03, 2020, 12:14:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on November 03, 2020, 09:55:08 AM

Every day I try to help people who feel misunderstood by a world that just tells them to stop feeling whatever it is that’s bothering them.

A variation on that is pretty much every one of my weekly therapy sessions for the past three months. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on November 03, 2020, 12:15:49 PM

Quote from: Gladler on November 03, 2020, 12:14:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on November 03, 2020, 09:55:08 AM

Every day I try to help people who feel misunderstood by a world that just tells them to stop feeling whatever it is that’s bothering them.

A variation on that is pretty much every one of my weekly therapy sessions for the past three months.

STOP FEELING THAT WAY!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 03, 2020, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: Madami on November 03, 2020, 12:15:49 PM

Quote from: Gladler on November 03, 2020, 12:14:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on November 03, 2020, 09:55:08 AM

Every day I try to help people who feel misunderstood by a world that just tells them to stop feeling whatever it is that’s bothering them.

A variation on that is pretty much every one of my weekly therapy sessions for the past three months.

STOP FEELING THAT WAY!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/cIMm3xWwxCF3xhuGpZ/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on November 03, 2020, 12:32:34 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 03, 2020, 07:29:38 AM

@Orbert....

Is it possible if she can take a test there, and then fly home?

That's an option, but I'm not sure of the value of it.  She's been living where she is for months now and is virus-free as far as we know.  It's the plane ride and passing through two major airports between there and here that have me concerned, so testing before she leaves won't reveal anything.  There's also the fact that testing too soon after exposure can result in a false negative.  For the virus to show positive, it has to have at least a little time to propogate.  By then, our whole house has been exposed.

One of my friends posted something the other day about celebrating the fact that her daughter was "allowed out" of the in-house quarrantine they'd imposed upon her after travelling.  They have a huge house though, and sequestered her in one wing of it, which I thought was great, but it's not something everyone can do.  But until I saw that, the idea of even attempting to reduce exposure to someone in my own house hadn't even occurred to me, which is what prompted me to ask for advice here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on November 03, 2020, 12:38:52 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 03, 2020, 12:09:25 PM

Quote from: Adami on November 03, 2020, 09:55:08 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 03, 2020, 08:09:03 AM

And, just don't have too much worry, too much worry can cause sickness.

It's cool that you've found such peace in all of this, but simply telling people to not worry is worth absolutely nothing in the slightest and doesn't accomplish anything. People aren't worrying because they want to worry, they just are. It's not a switch they can turn off. It's not like they'll be like "Wait...you mean DON'T worry? Why.....why I never thought of that before!"


Sorry if that was snarky. Every day I try to help people who feel misunderstood by a world that just tells them to stop feeling whatever it is that’s bothering them.

Obviously just saying it won't change someone's feelings (reminds me of telling a previous gf to "relax" and it only made things 10 times worse  :lol) but from your experience, can you work with people to get them to stop worrying about things that aren't in their control?

I mean, it's complicated. Depending on a bunch of vairables, we can get to where they can stop worrying about SOME stuff. But all stuff outside of our control? No. Every human (for the most part) worries about things outside of their control and doesn't worry about other things.

But I was responding more to Ben's cavalier attitude of him being fine, therefore we should just stop worrying and relax. It doesn't work that way, and it annoys me when people think it does. Someone feeling one way doesn't mean others can just choose to feel that way (or choose to feel any way at all).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 03, 2020, 12:46:22 PM

I understand your point to Ben, but was just looking to get your view on being able to work on your emotions such as worrying.  I don't think it's simple, but I was curious if you know that some things can be worked and made better from your experience especially without the use of medication.  Like, is there a way to change the way you think to not worry about certain things?  Is there a good chance of success if you are committed to wanting to change your worrying habits?  What can you do?  That may be a bit more than you want to respond to so feel free to ignore my random thoughts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on November 03, 2020, 12:51:06 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 03, 2020, 12:46:22 PM

I understand your point to Ben, but was just looking to get your view on being able to work on your emotions such as worrying.  I don't think it's simple, but I was curious if you know that some things can be worked and made better from your experience especially without the use of medication.  Like, is there a way to change the way you think to not worry about certain things?  Is there a good chance of success if you are committed to wanting to change your worrying habits?  What can you do?  That may be a bit more than you want to respond to so feel free to ignore my random thoughts.

Nah, this question is a bit easier to answer.

In short? Yes. I help people worry about things less most days. How depends on the person and their therapist. I'm a much more insight oriented person. So I try less to change thoughts and more to understand them in the first place. Once we have a good understanding of why we're doing or thinking or feeling XYZ, it helps create a natural change in whatever direction occurs. But plenty of therapists are more cognitive behavioral and don't care about that and go straight to changing thoughts by changing behaviors that feed into thoughts. It works, though I'm not the biggest fan of it. But yes, it's possible. But like all things, only to some degree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 03, 2020, 12:53:23 PM

Thanks for the response, the human mind is really interesting and confusing at the same time.  Definitely need more people who can help others the way you do, and for people to be more open to that kind of help.  Mental health is so important and I'm not a big fan of just throwing drugs at someone (although I understand it may be necessary).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 03, 2020, 01:00:12 PM

I was googling therapists the other day. The reviews scared me away  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 03, 2020, 01:18:36 PM

Quote from: Adami on November 03, 2020, 12:51:06 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 03, 2020, 12:46:22 PM

I understand your point to Ben, but was just looking to get your view on being able to work on your emotions such as worrying.  I don't think it's simple, but I was curious if you know that some things can be worked and made better from your experience especially without the use of medication.  Like, is there a way to change the way you think to not worry about certain things?  Is there a good chance of success if you are committed to wanting to change your worrying habits?  What can you do?  That may be a bit more than you want to respond to so feel free to ignore my random thoughts.

Nah, this question is a bit easier to answer.

In short? Yes. I help people worry about things less most days. How depends on the person and their therapist. I'm a much more insight oriented person. So I try less to change thoughts and more to understand them in the first place. Once we have a good understanding of why we're doing or thinking or feeling XYZ, it helps create a natural change in whatever direction occurs. But plenty of therapists are more cognitive behavioral and don't care about that and go straight to changing thoughts by changing behaviors that feed into thoughts. It works, though I'm not the biggest fan of it. But yes, it's possible. But like all things, only to some degree.

Part of the work for me - and it's in process, to be sure - is to recognize the feelings themselves and don't judge them.  I find I'm not yet any better at controlling the feeling, but I'm better at identifying them.  I've still got a long way to go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 03, 2020, 01:25:06 PM

Coming soon to a theater near you: Dr. Adami, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Covid

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on November 03, 2020, 01:32:43 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 03, 2020, 01:18:36 PM

Quote from: Adami on November 03, 2020, 12:51:06 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 03, 2020, 12:46:22 PM

I understand your point to Ben, but was just looking to get your view on being able to work on your emotions such as worrying.  I don't think it's simple, but I was curious if you know that some things can be worked and made better from your experience especially without the use of medication.  Like, is there a way to change the way you think to not worry about certain things?  Is there a good chance of success if you are committed to wanting to change your worrying habits?  What can you do?  That may be a bit more than you want to respond to so feel free to ignore my random thoughts.

Nah, this question is a bit easier to answer.

In short? Yes. I help people worry about things less most days. How depends on the person and their therapist. I'm a much more insight oriented person. So I try less to change thoughts and more to understand them in the first place. Once we have a good understanding of why we're doing or thinking or feeling XYZ, it helps create a natural change in whatever direction occurs. But plenty of therapists are more cognitive behavioral and don't care about that and go straight to changing thoughts by changing behaviors that feed into thoughts. It works, though I'm not the biggest fan of it. But yes, it's possible. But like all things, only to some degree.

Part of the work for me - and it's in process, to be sure - is to recognize the feelings themselves and don't judge them.  I find I'm not yet any better at controlling the feeling, but I'm better at identifying them.  I've still got a long way to go.

Don’t try to control them. Not gonna happen. Your first part is great though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 03, 2020, 03:52:22 PM

Just found out that my bosses husband currently has the covids and my colleague had the covids. My colleague has no clue where he got it because he isolates, wears a mask and goes to church and teaches Sunday school.  :yeahright

My bosses husband does the same sans Sunday school.  :eek

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 03, 2020, 05:06:56 PM

^
Best of luck to them and those around them in the days/weeks to follow. 

One can take as many precautions feasibly possible, and still be unlucky.  A two mile drive to the store, with speed limits of 30 MPH on uncongested roads, still has its share of risks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 04, 2020, 12:58:17 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on November 03, 2020, 05:06:56 PM

One can take as many precautions feasibly possible, and still be unlucky. 

Indeed. There are more and more cases of people saying "I was careful, but I took it anyway". There's an opinionist I follow on FB and he said he got it while alone in a new city, without talking to anyone, meeting people or taking the elevator. He still got it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 08:11:29 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on November 03, 2020, 05:06:56 PM

^
Best of luck to them and those around them in the days/weeks to follow. 

One can take as many precautions feasibly possible, and still be unlucky.  A two mile drive to the store, with speed limits of 30 MPH on uncongested roads, still has its share of risks.

I wish them the best too. I haven't heard from my boss in weeks so it makes me wonder. They also have her elderly dad living with them and he has all kinds of health issues.

Frankly, my comments were meant to be sarcastic because when my colleague told me about going to church and teaching Sunday school, I was thinking 'well there's your answer'. Church activities have been known to spread the virus and I realize someone posted an article where children were unlikely to spread the virus but I still have my doubts. The mayor of our town told me the other day that half of the grade/middle school kids are home because they tested positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 01:23:43 PM

The State of Missouri is having a statewide push for the covids testing so we went and got tested for the covids. Should take up to 72hrs and I will get a text if I am negative and a phone call if positive.

We did at the request of my mother-in-law who strangely enough isn't getting one.  ??? We aren't experiencing any symptoms.

The process took about an hour but that was mainly waiting in line. The testing was done in the car and I swabbed myself with medical worker overseeing the process. It mainly tickled my nose and there was no need to stick it so far up and scratch my brain and the whole process was managed by the Missouri National Guard.

Fun times....... :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on November 04, 2020, 03:29:18 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 01:23:43 PM

It mainly tickled my nose and there was no need to stick it so far up and scratch my brain

I find this encouraging.  If it comes down to it, or if I have reason to suspect I have it, I'll take the test of course, but I've been dreading that day because sticking things way the fuck up my nose like that weirds me out.  Reports from guys I know who've done the test confirm what it's like.  Eeesh!  I shuddered just now, just thinking about it.  But if the new tests are not so "invasive" then maybe I can relax a little.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on November 04, 2020, 03:37:41 PM

Quote from: Orbert on November 04, 2020, 03:29:18 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 01:23:43 PM

It mainly tickled my nose and there was no need to stick it so far up and scratch my brain

I find this encouraging.  If it comes down to it, or if I have reason to suspect I have it, I'll take the test of course, but I've been dreading that day because sticking things way the fuck up my nose like that weirds me out.  Reports from guys I know who've done the test confirm what it's like.  Eeesh!  I shuddered just now, just thinking about it.  But if the new tests are not so "invasive" then maybe I can relax a little.

I think they updated the tests a while a back to replace the brain-scooping with some pretty light swabbing. I got tested right before the 4th of July and I was pleasantly surprised at how casual it was compared to the stories I had heard prior to that point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 03:50:16 PM

It's funny, my nose was so tickled that I was about to sneeze but I was afraid that if I did, they would pull out their M-16s, point at me and yell COVID and start shooting!!

I guess I watch too many Sci-Fi movies.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 04, 2020, 05:26:17 PM

Quote from: Orbert on November 04, 2020, 03:29:18 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 01:23:43 PM

It mainly tickled my nose and there was no need to stick it so far up and scratch my brain

I find this encouraging.  If it comes down to it, or if I have reason to suspect I have it, I'll take the test of course, but I've been dreading that day because sticking things way the fuck up my nose like that weirds me out.  Reports from guys I know who've done the test confirm what it's like.  Eeesh!  I shuddered just now, just thinking about it.  But if the new tests are not so "invasive" then maybe I can relax a little.

It's not bad man. At least, the ones my tribe had got. The first ones we did were more like a Strep Test cotton swab. These latest ones we got were more flatter, softer, and got the mucus sample quicker. My eyes do water though, and it makes my nose feel a bit irritated after, but that is a natural defense as you're not supposed to be stuffing shit up your nose like that anyways. :lol

Unfortunately, it's within our Tribe now, I am not positive. Have no reason to believe I am positive, but either way, it's here. It's inevitable and we are just glad we were able to keep it out as long as we did. I am not worried about it at all, just we are more concerned for our elders, and are doing as much as we can to protect them, that is when they aren't being stubborn like old people usually are (I do not blame them at all though).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 02:40:06 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 08:11:29 AM

...and I realize someone posted an article where children were unlikely to spread the virus but I still have my doubts. The mayor of our town told me the other day that half of the grade/middle school kids are home because they tested positive.

Our national institute of health just released epidemiological statistics from grade schools' autumn term so far.

Exposed pupils: 11 819
Positive cases*: 127

Exposed staff: 1 608
Positive cases*: 24

* From sources of exposure, presumably tested after showing symptoms

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 05, 2020, 04:36:08 AM

Quote from: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 02:40:06 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 04, 2020, 08:11:29 AM

...and I realize someone posted an article where children were unlikely to spread the virus but I still have my doubts. The mayor of our town told me the other day that half of the grade/middle school kids are home because they tested positive.

Our national institute of health just released epidemiological statistics from grade schools' autumn term so far.

Exposed pupils: 11 819
Positive cases*: 127

Exposed staff: 1 608
Positive cases*: 24

* From sources of exposure, presumably tested after showing symptoms

I am hugely skeptical that it isn't schools driving the recent spikes. Minnesota hovered around 6000 active cases all summer long through Memorial Day and 4th of July festivities, through massive protests over George Floyd. None of those things caused a noticeable increase in cases. Starting around Sep 1st, there has been a steady incline in the number of active cases where the active cases are more than double what they were over the summer. I don't know what else changed other than schools starting up again. It's not like all Minnesotans suddenly said "fuck it... I don't give a shit anymore and I'm doing whatever the hell I want." The weather didn't get bad until October, so it's not like being driven indoors caused it. I simply cant see what else it could have been besides schools and colleges starting up again with at least some in-person learning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 05, 2020, 05:27:31 AM

IMO, it's an overall movement back inside.  Many businesses tried to bring some people back to offices (even at reduced rates), and the general return of some business - retail, hospitality, recreation, restaurants etc...  Add in to that personal gatherings, and it's simply allowing the virus to be spread more rapidly/easily indoors.  On the latter, think about it ... if, for example, the local mandate is no more than 50 people gatherings in large indoor spaces, people might just stretch that to 60 people.  If it's 10 in your home, what's the big deal if you've got 12 people over.  Then there's all the people who just say fuckit, and don't follow anything, people who have given up on caring, and people who just get sloppy (I know I fall into that category occasionally... forgetting to keep 6 feet between me and the next person at the Costco cashier belt).

That, that ... that's what I think.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 06:44:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 05, 2020, 05:27:31 AM

IMO, it's an overall movement back inside.

Indeed. Some sources have said the virus would thrive better when temperatures get cooler and the moisture goes down, but I'm not that sure (would play well with the George Floyd thing though). It was the same in Finland: barely any cases in the summer, and the increase started once autumn weather kicked in and people were indoors more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 05, 2020, 07:12:59 AM

Quote from: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 06:44:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 05, 2020, 05:27:31 AM

IMO, it's an overall movement back inside.

Indeed. Some sources have said the virus would thrive better when temperatures get cooler and the moisture goes down, but I'm not that sure (would play well with the George Floyd thing though). It was the same in Finland: barely any cases in the summer, and the increase started once autumn weather kicked in and people were indoors more.

To add to this, I am first going to trade the term "thrive" to "easily transmissible". Yes, the cooler weather will drive people indoors but that means the heater comes on and the air becomes drier thus allowing your spittle to be more easily transmissible. And when you couple that with the air vents in your office probably not being cleaned maybe ever, it's a recipe for disaster.

On a side note, I just found out that more people in IT are being told to quarantine because they have been in contact with my bosses husband. End user support is one job that requires human interaction so no telling how many have been infected. Now I have to get creative with my projects because I count on them on my projects and they're not around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 07:55:28 AM

Beginning of September also aligns with Labor Day and when indoor dining opened back up here in NJ (in limited capacity).  It seemed a lot of people just got more loose once September hit and we had to start being indoors more and also after a pretty calm summer from Covid.

I think the timing also aligns with the mutation of the virus that is generally seen to be more contagious. 

That's not to say I don't think schools are spreading it either, there's definitely spread there too.  I just think it's a combo of lots of things, not just schools.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 05, 2020, 08:11:35 AM

I can only speak for my area.   From my perspective, it's school, but not DIRECTLY school.  I know my daughter got it by being back to college, but I don't see how she wouldn't have been exposed even if she was home with her friends.   I think "Labor Day/School" coincided with a general relaxing of things - here in Connecticut we started to transition into a Phase 3 reopening (restaurants could increase capacity to I think 50% inside, for example) - so I think it's more complicated.   My stepson is on a hybrid schedule - two days from home, two days in school, and a flex day in between - and I think there's only been one case in his school (a middle school). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 05, 2020, 09:56:58 AM

So beginning Monday our school system is going virtual until December 3rd.

The following was reported:
As of Wednesday morning, the district had 300 quarantined individuals among students and staff, with 273 being close contacts and about 25 who have tested positive for COVID-19.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 05, 2020, 10:54:38 AM

100,000+ new cases in the US yesterday.  The highest daily number of infections since the pandemic began.  Everything is going to be closed down again in a few weeks they can't just let it run wild

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 12:26:52 PM

Denmark is about to kill 15 million minks because of a mutation that spread to humans, and they fear it might make future vaccines ineffective. Seven municipalities now have strict restrictions in order to prevent it from spreading. However, scientists and experts have labeled the vaccine-escape story as strange and even "idiotic", because initial reports about the mutation indicate that it likely wouldn't be significant enough to affect vaccines. The finding has also not been properly evaluated scientifically.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 12:34:37 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 05, 2020, 10:54:38 AM

100,000+ new cases in the US yesterday.  The highest daily number of infections since the pandemic began.  Everything is going to be closed down again in a few weeks they can't just let it run wild

USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 05, 2020, 12:49:47 PM

Quote from: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 12:26:52 PM

Denmark is about to kill 15 million minks because of a mutation that spread to humans, and they fear it might make future vaccines ineffective. Seven municipalities now have strict restrictions in order to prevent it from spreading. However, scientists and experts have labeled the vaccine-escape story as strange and even "idiotic", because initial reports about the mutation indicate that it likely wouldn't be significant enough to affect vaccines. The finding has also not been properly evaluated scientifically.

From what I've read is that the current mutation isn't that great, but if you let that propagate through a few generations of 15M minks, you could have something that our vaccines do nothing against. We're attempting to prevent that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 12:56:06 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 05, 2020, 12:49:47 PM

Quote from: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 12:26:52 PM

Denmark is about to kill 15 million minks because of a mutation that spread to humans, and they fear it might make future vaccines ineffective. Seven municipalities now have strict restrictions in order to prevent it from spreading. However, scientists and experts have labeled the vaccine-escape story as strange and even "idiotic", because initial reports about the mutation indicate that it likely wouldn't be significant enough to affect vaccines. The finding has also not been properly evaluated scientifically.

From what I've read is that the current mutation isn't that great, but if you let that propagate through a few generations of 15M minks, you could have something that our vaccines do nothing against. We're attempting to prevent that.

Geeze, poor Minks.  That is a sad story to hear. Ugh, fuck this virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 12:58:52 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 05, 2020, 12:49:47 PM

From what I've read is that the current mutation isn't that great, but if you let that propagate through a few generations of 15M minks, you could have something that our vaccines do nothing against. We're attempting to prevent that.

That would be a reasonable argument, but the additional restrictions in Jylland seem exaggerated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 05, 2020, 12:59:19 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 12:34:37 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 05, 2020, 10:54:38 AM

100,000+ new cases in the US yesterday.  The highest daily number of infections since the pandemic began.  Everything is going to be closed down again in a few weeks they can't just let it run wild

USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!

Iran #1!!!  USA #2!!!

(https://media.tenor.com/images/bf6860c83462b7fe72563514da121360/tenor.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 01:10:33 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 05, 2020, 12:59:19 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 12:34:37 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 05, 2020, 10:54:38 AM

100,000+ new cases in the US yesterday.  The highest daily number of infections since the pandemic began.  Everything is going to be closed down again in a few weeks they can't just let it run wild

USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!

Iran #1!!!  USA #2!!!

(https://media.tenor.com/images/bf6860c83462b7fe72563514da121360/tenor.gif)

Sit back down, Steve Harvey. Who let you off the set??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 05, 2020, 02:00:48 PM

Guess the whole 'going to dissappear on Nov 4th' theory can be laid to rest, and we can firmly conclude everyone pushing said theory months ago as a complete fucking moron.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 02:03:01 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 05, 2020, 02:00:48 PM

Guess the whole 'going to dissappear on Nov 4th' theory can be laid to rest, and we can firmly conclude everyone pushing said theory months ago as a complete fucking moron.

Hey now, the election aint over yet!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 02:04:19 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 05, 2020, 02:00:48 PM

Guess the whole 'going to dissappear on Nov 4th' theory can be laid to rest, and we can firmly conclude everyone pushing said theory months ago as a complete fucking moron.

Rona or Trump? Either way, who the hell was putting stock in those predictions? Stupid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 05, 2020, 03:17:39 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 02:04:19 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 05, 2020, 02:00:48 PM

Guess the whole 'going to dissappear on Nov 4th' theory can be laid to rest, and we can firmly conclude everyone pushing said theory months ago as a complete fucking moron.

Rona or Trump? Either way, who the hell was putting stock in those predictions? Stupid.

Rona obviously, but one good side effect of Donnie dragging his hopefully eventual loss out is that he has less time to shamelessly rape the country and the white house for every dime possible. Shit, I wouldn't put it past him to steal the silverware and china on his way out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 03:27:33 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 05, 2020, 03:17:39 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 05, 2020, 02:04:19 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 05, 2020, 02:00:48 PM

Guess the whole 'going to dissappear on Nov 4th' theory can be laid to rest, and we can firmly conclude everyone pushing said theory months ago as a complete fucking moron.

Rona or Trump? Either way, who the hell was putting stock in those predictions? Stupid.

Rona obviously, but one good side effect of Donnie dragging his hopefully eventual loss out is that he has less time to shamelessly rape the country and the white house for every dime possible. Shit, I wouldn't put it past him to steal the silverware and china on his way out.

To be fair, when I got shitcanned from a job I really liked, I stole a few of those large red Coca Cola plastic cups from the back warehouse, especially cause I cleaned the whole bitch  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 05, 2020, 03:55:59 PM

Had a mild scare in the gmillerdrake house. My 14 year old has a stuffed up/runny nose....blocked up sinus's and was complaining his ear hurt. This was on the heels of learning our Church's youth leader and his wife tested positive for covid. Two of my sons were in their presence Sunday at services. So, my wife just ran him to the pediatrician and they did a rapid test that came back negative....he just has a severe ear infection. Never been so happy for my kid to be suffering from an ear infection  :lol

I felt for him though because all he kept saying is that he couldn't live with himself if he knew he gave someone Covid  :'( 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 05, 2020, 04:19:20 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 05, 2020, 03:55:59 PM

Had a mild scare in the gmillerdrake house. My 14 year old has a stuffed up/runny nose....blocked up sinus's and was complaining his ear hurt. This was on the heels of learning our Church's youth leader and his wife tested positive for covid. Two of my sons were in their presence Sunday at services. So, my wife just ran him to the pediatrician and they did a rapid test that came back negative....he just has a severe ear infection. Never been so happy for my kid to be suffering from an ear infection  :lol

I felt for him though because all he kept saying is that he couldn't live with himself if he knew he gave someone Covid  :'(

Just curious, are they continuing church and youth activities and are they wearing masks?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 05, 2020, 04:23:36 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 05, 2020, 04:19:20 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 05, 2020, 03:55:59 PM

Had a mild scare in the gmillerdrake house. My 14 year old has a stuffed up/runny nose....blocked up sinus's and was complaining his ear hurt. This was on the heels of learning our Church's youth leader and his wife tested positive for covid. Two of my sons were in their presence Sunday at services. So, my wife just ran him to the pediatrician and they did a rapid test that came back negative....he just has a severe ear infection. Never been so happy for my kid to be suffering from an ear infection  :lol

I felt for him though because all he kept saying is that he couldn't live with himself if he knew he gave someone Covid  :'(

Just curious, are they continuing church and youth activities and are they wearing masks?

Yes. It’s mandatory masks and we only allow 20% in person capacity. (200) people or so. The aisles are broken out to where there’s an open aisle of chairs between each populated aisle.....and all the youth are masked and socially distanced as well. It’s pretty strict compared to what I’ve heard about elsewhere.

In fact, we were minutes away from our Wednesday night service last night when we heard about them testing positive so we had the building cleared out and just did all virtual

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 05, 2020, 04:34:29 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 12:56:06 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 05, 2020, 12:49:47 PM

Quote from: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 12:26:52 PM

Denmark is about to kill 15 million minks because of a mutation that spread to humans, and they fear it might make future vaccines ineffective. Seven municipalities now have strict restrictions in order to prevent it from spreading. However, scientists and experts have labeled the vaccine-escape story as strange and even "idiotic", because initial reports about the mutation indicate that it likely wouldn't be significant enough to affect vaccines. The finding has also not been properly evaluated scientifically.

From what I've read is that the current mutation isn't that great, but if you let that propagate through a few generations of 15M minks, you could have something that our vaccines do nothing against. We're attempting to prevent that.

Geeze, poor Minks.  That is a sad story to hear. Ugh, fuck this virus.

These are fur farms to mass produce and export fur. These animals were already poor to be honest. And they were going to be killed either way, because their fur is the product.

Over here we already had several major covid outbreaks in the remaining mink fur farms, also with the result of killing them. Also very large numbers. (Mink fur farms became illegal here, but we are in a transitory period where those remaining are still allowed to operate).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 04:49:36 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 05, 2020, 04:34:29 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 12:56:06 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 05, 2020, 12:49:47 PM

Quote from: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 12:26:52 PM

Denmark is about to kill 15 million minks because of a mutation that spread to humans, and they fear it might make future vaccines ineffective. Seven municipalities now have strict restrictions in order to prevent it from spreading. However, scientists and experts have labeled the vaccine-escape story as strange and even "idiotic", because initial reports about the mutation indicate that it likely wouldn't be significant enough to affect vaccines. The finding has also not been properly evaluated scientifically.

From what I've read is that the current mutation isn't that great, but if you let that propagate through a few generations of 15M minks, you could have something that our vaccines do nothing against. We're attempting to prevent that.

Geeze, poor Minks.  That is a sad story to hear. Ugh, fuck this virus.

These are fur farms to mass produce and export fur. These animals were already poor to be honest. And they were going to be killed either way, because their fur is the product.

Over here we already had several major covid outbreaks in the remaining mink fur farms, also with the result of killing them. Also very large numbers. (Mink fur farms became illegal here, but we are in a transitory period where those remaining are still allowed to operate).

Hey, I am a meat eater.  I don't really have a huge issue in consumption of animals, but I'm not a fan of using them for fashion, nor just the idea of a mass killing like this due to the circumstances. I understand it but it just sucks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 05, 2020, 06:52:37 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 04:49:36 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 05, 2020, 04:34:29 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 05, 2020, 12:56:06 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 05, 2020, 12:49:47 PM

Quote from: Luoto on November 05, 2020, 12:26:52 PM

Denmark is about to kill 15 million minks because of a mutation that spread to humans, and they fear it might make future vaccines ineffective. Seven municipalities now have strict restrictions in order to prevent it from spreading. However, scientists and experts have labeled the vaccine-escape story as strange and even "idiotic", because initial reports about the mutation indicate that it likely wouldn't be significant enough to affect vaccines. The finding has also not been properly evaluated scientifically.

From what I've read is that the current mutation isn't that great, but if you let that propagate through a few generations of 15M minks, you could have something that our vaccines do nothing against. We're attempting to prevent that.

Geeze, poor Minks.  That is a sad story to hear. Ugh, fuck this virus.

These are fur farms to mass produce and export fur. These animals were already poor to be honest. And they were going to be killed either way, because their fur is the product.

Over here we already had several major covid outbreaks in the remaining mink fur farms, also with the result of killing them. Also very large numbers. (Mink fur farms became illegal here, but we are in a transitory period where those remaining are still allowed to operate).

Hey, I am a meat eater.  I don't really have a huge issue in consumption of animals, but I'm not a fan of using them for fashion, nor just the idea of a mass killing like this due to the circumstances. I understand it but it just sucks.

Yeah, that is true.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 06, 2020, 07:47:56 AM

I personally don't see what's wrong with using animals for their furs/skins. We use them for other parts of their body. We test chemicals on the poor things. *shrug*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 06, 2020, 07:50:52 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 06, 2020, 07:47:56 AM

I personally don't see what's wrong with using animals for their furs/skins. We use them for other parts of their body. We test chemicals on the poor things. *shrug*

I have a bit of a problem with them being only used for their skins, but if the rest of them gets used for something as well (pet food, Taco Bell meat, etc) I don't have a problem with it. There's leather all over the place from the cows we eat and very few people are bothered by that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 06, 2020, 08:01:34 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 06, 2020, 07:47:56 AM

I personally don't see what's wrong with using animals for their furs/skins. We use them for other parts of their body. We test chemicals on the poor things. *shrug*

My only remark was that these animals were already suffering and dying either way, so that to me there seemed little difference for the animals themselves.

It isn't my intention to delve into the whole meat/testing/hunting/whatnot discussion, which is not really suited for this thread. And that discussion will vary a whole lot between countries, due to differing regulations and living conditions of animals between different sectors.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 06, 2020, 02:27:20 PM

My recent 'transmission flush' is over.  TMI perhaps, but they found four polyps again, but already received the results of them being benign.  Woot!  Woot!

The sad small world of C19:  a woman I have worked with and become great friends with for the past two years at a HS food pantry tested positive today.  As well as her husband.  My wife and I and this couple have often dined together, including two times in the past two months outdoors.  They went to a wedding with 50 guests in DC on Saturday.  Yes, they wore masks, but there are plenty of pix of various people with them down, and then those people with others. 

She also had a colonoscopy.... the day after mine.....by the same doctor!!!!  That office closed its doors this afternoon. 

She is not doing so well, her husband worse.  That's what worried me the most regarding my procedure.  Yes, all the staff wore masks, but I didn't during the procedure.  To think if she'd been scheduled an hour before me........

And we hit yet another new high in cases, and the death count remains above 1K daily.  More college football games cancelled, high schools who begged to restart their seasons having to cancel......it's the same old story, same old song and dance....and this round is going to be worse than the original.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 06, 2020, 02:31:32 PM

Yup - another colleague tested positive today and people in IT especially end user support are dropping like flies.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 07, 2020, 10:36:55 AM

All I have to say is - WHAT A RELIEF!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 07, 2020, 10:38:34 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 07, 2020, 10:36:55 AM

All I have to say is - WHAT A RELIEF!!

Plop plop; fizz fizz...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 08, 2020, 07:57:22 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 06, 2020, 07:50:52 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 06, 2020, 07:47:56 AM

I personally don't see what's wrong with using animals for their furs/skins. We use them for other parts of their body. We test chemicals on the poor things. *shrug*

I have a bit of a problem with them being only used for their skins, but if the rest of them gets used for something as well (pet food, Taco Bell meat, etc) I don't have a problem with it. There's leather all over the place from the cows we eat and very few people are bothered by that.

!!!

:)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 08:31:41 AM

Some good news on the vaccine front today, Pfizer said its Covid-19 vaccine is 90% effective

And the bad news (although, maybe necessary) at 1pm today, the NJ governor said he's announcing new restrictions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 09, 2020, 10:42:48 AM

So my father-in-law has been in ICU for the last week with COVID, so that has sucked.  He finally got moved out of ICU yesterday, but he will probably remain hospitalized for at least a few more days.

My sister-in-law was also hospitalized with COVID last week (and double pneumonia), but she got to come home Saturday.

Both were treated with Remdesevir.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 09, 2020, 11:29:25 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 09, 2020, 10:42:48 AM

So my father-in-law has been in ICU for the last week with COVID, so that has sucked.  He finally got moved out of ICU yesterday, but he will probably remain hospitalized for at least a few more days.

My sister-in-law was also hospitalized with COVID last week (and double pneumonia), but she got to come home Saturday.

Both were treated with Remdesevir.

My god.  Prayers to you and your family.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 11:31:02 AM

Damn, that is terrible Hef, hope they can recover soon

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 09, 2020, 12:34:56 PM

Thanks, guys.  Like I said, we are definitely in a better place now than we were a week ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 09, 2020, 12:47:49 PM

Son of a bitch, man.  I'm glad things are 'better', but I'll bet that was brutal on you and your wife/daughter!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 09, 2020, 12:57:59 PM

Glad things are getting better, good lord.

My wife lost her grandmother to COVID last month. She was very old and already in failing health, but the virus is what did her in. She would still be here otherwise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 09, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 09, 2020, 12:47:49 PM

Son of a bitch, man.  I'm glad things are 'better', but I'll bet that was brutal on you and your wife/daughter!

There were definitely some scary moments.

I told my wife that her dad is too mean to die from this.  He is proving me right lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on November 09, 2020, 12:59:33 PM

That's brutal, Hef.  Glad things are looking up at this point, though.

Got my own considerations here as well.  A patient of mine that I treated last Monday canceled her appointment this afternoon as she tested positive for COVID.  Symptoms for her started last Friday, and the CDC (and thus my company's policies/guidelines) say that anyone that had close contact (which I'm a physical therapist, so "close contact" is unavoidable with most of my patients, especially since I'm treating her shoulder and she needs a lot of hands-on work) within 48 hours of symptom onset should get tested, so I'm outside of that window, thankfully.  I also was wearing the proper recommended protective equipment, and I cleanse my hands after each patient, so that also places things at lower risk.  My debate is do I get tested anyway, just in case, and thus run the risk of spending two weeks' worth, or more, of PTO that I really can't afford to do right now, or just monitor my own symptoms and let it ride for the next week and just be a bit more cautious than I normally am, since it's technically within advisement of the company and the CDC?

I'm not entirely sure what I should do. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 01:01:05 PM

Your company would make you take PTO if you got covid? That's terrible.

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 09, 2020, 12:57:59 PM

Glad things are getting better, good lord.

My wife lost her grandmother to COVID last month. She was very old and already in failing health, but the virus is what did her in. She would still be here otherwise.

Shit, sorry for your loss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on November 09, 2020, 01:08:09 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 01:01:05 PM

Your company would make you take PTO if you got covid? That's terrible.

That's also something that I need to clarify with my supervisor.  I let him know about the potential exposure, and he basically defaulted to the policies I mentioned.  I'm guessing that since I fall outside of that specified 48 hour window that it'd be on me, but I don't know for sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 09, 2020, 01:32:37 PM

I posted awhile back that I thought that the virus was on our shores around October/November and that wifey and I were freakingly ill in August so I wondered if it could have been COVID?

Well talking to a friend today, he was sick in August that lasted on and off for a couple of months. I remember this well because he was an important resource on my project and he was always out. He tested negative for the flu and had all the classic symptoms but no loss taste or smell. The doctors gave him all kinds of Z-Pack and antibiotics but couldn't figure out what was going on. He thinks it was the covids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on November 09, 2020, 01:59:34 PM

I forgot to post that both my youngest daughter and her husband (she's 30 and he's 32) have COVID and have been quarantined in their home with manageable symptoms. My son-in-law brought it home from work, where it's been rampaging through the company, roughly 10 days ago. Both are expected to be fine, but it's got me biting my nails in fear.

I haven't seen any of my children or grandchildren in person for more than a month.

I'm glad your family is improving, Hef. All my best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM

My best friend probably has rona now, which, honestly, I'm surprised it's taken this long considering his nightly habits

One of my dad's friends showed up this morning, shook my hand, and then told me his sister was back at home now... quarantining after just getting released from the hospital with COVID. Thanks pal!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 09, 2020, 02:08:12 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Our response to the covids should radically change in the coming months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 09, 2020, 02:25:20 PM

Quote from: Podaar on November 09, 2020, 01:59:34 PM

I forgot to post that both my youngest daughter and her husband (she's 30 and he's 32) have COVID and have been quarantined in their home with manageable symptoms. My son-in-law brought it home from work, where it's been rampaging through the company, roughly 10 days ago. Both are expected to be fine, but it's got me biting my nails in fear.

I haven't seen any of my children or grandchildren in person for more than a month.

Glad to hear they're doing 'well' with manageable symptoms......with our little scare last week with our oldest son it's brutal to think about when you're kids are involved.





And Hef....many prayers to your family that they both continue to heal and recover fully and quickly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 09, 2020, 02:41:35 PM

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 09, 2020, 12:57:59 PM

Glad things are getting better, good lord.

My wife lost her grandmother to COVID last month. She was very old and already in failing health, but the virus is what did her in. She would still be here otherwise.

My sympathy and condolences for the loss...



But, and this isn't directly at you, it's about those people whom are very old and have failing health. "They would still be here"...Yes, they would, but we don't know for how long. I know some people that were very old, and in failing health, and succumbed, by dying in their sleep. That's the thing about the very old with failing health. It's why I say, to ask the older ones, how they feel about death and are they ready to accept it, because they are fragile, and even a small fall can end up being life threatening. It's a thing to ask, in the case of a sudden death, or illness, where they can't recover from because their organs, and immune system is just too old, that way you yourself can accept their position of death and dying, and be mentally and emotionally ready for when that day comes.

Actually, that could be said about anyone with a life-threatening illness.

"When we fear death, we stop living.

We like to feel invincible or immortal for that matter. But not thinking about death won’t make your life last forever. It takes guts to confront this vulnerable truth: the only sure thing is how uncertain life is.

We avoid thinking about death, yet we fear it in silence. Keeping the “what if I die tomorrow?” question present will free you from that worry that exists at a subconscious level."
https://liberationist.org/why-accepting-death-will-make-you-worry-less/

Covid-19 is making a lot of us, think about this topic and reflect upon it.


As cheesy, and unrealistic, it may be for some of you. I pray for people to be strong against the symptoms, and to be more healthier. That's including all the ones going through this on this board. Be strong, and don't give up. The mindset and will you have to live, can overcome many instances of facing Death. This is one of those fights.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 09, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 09, 2020, 02:49:16 PM

Quote from: Snow Dog on November 09, 2020, 12:59:33 PM

That's brutal, Hef.  Glad things are looking up at this point, though.

Got my own considerations here as well.  A patient of mine that I treated last Monday canceled her appointment this afternoon as she tested positive for COVID.  Symptoms for her started last Friday, and the CDC (and thus my company's policies/guidelines) say that anyone that had close contact (which I'm a physical therapist, so "close contact" is unavoidable with most of my patients, especially since I'm treating her shoulder and she needs a lot of hands-on work) within 48 hours of symptom onset should get tested, so I'm outside of that window, thankfully.  I also was wearing the proper recommended protective equipment, and I cleanse my hands after each patient, so that also places things at lower risk.  My debate is do I get tested anyway, just in case, and thus run the risk of spending two weeks' worth, or more, of PTO that I really can't afford to do right now, or just monitor my own symptoms and let it ride for the next week and just be a bit more cautious than I normally am, since it's technically within advisement of the company and the CDC?

I'm not entirely sure what I should do.

At least you got that choice. We have to get mandatory tested, as someone got tested positive for it here. They showed mild symptoms.

The odd thing is though, the significant other, who was really sick earlier in the year, and diagnosed with a "stronger flu", tested negative for covid.

I haven't got it, and haven't felt any symptoms, other than my annual allergy sinus pressure. I got tested last week, was negative, and got tested again today.... :tdwn :tdwn

It wasn't as bad though, and was actually the least invasive out of all the ones I got. It all depends on the nurse that administers the test, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

I actually had a sore throat this weekend, and it's already mostly gone today but I told myself if it got worse I should get tested just to put myself and everyone at work at ease. (I don't have any known exposure and hadn't done much of anything the last few weeks so I didn't really think I got the covid)  Luckily, like I said, I feel fine today, but I did do my initial search into getting tested if needed to.  I noticed CVS gives you a swab to do the test on yourself.  I've got to say, I think I'd have a hard time shoving that all the way up my nose and might actually need someone to do it for me  :lol  Looked like different places do things differently though so there were options to go into a doctors office. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 09, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

I actually had a sore throat this weekend, and it's already mostly gone today but I told myself if it got worse I should get tested just to put myself and everyone at work at ease. (I don't have any known exposure and hadn't done much of anything the last few weeks so I didn't really think I got the covid)  Luckily, like I said, I feel fine today, but I did do my initial search into getting tested if needed to.  I noticed CVS gives you a swab to do the test on yourself.  I've got to say, I think I'd have a hard time shoving that all the way up my nose and might actually need someone to do it for me  :lol  Looked like different places do things differently though so there were options to go into a doctors office.

Oh yup, it's all different. I wouldn't trust doing the self-test myself, as I might not do it right. I thought it was required the test had to be administered by a nurse or health professional. Maybe, it's just my state.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 03:02:23 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 09, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

I actually had a sore throat this weekend, and it's already mostly gone today but I told myself if it got worse I should get tested just to put myself and everyone at work at ease. (I don't have any known exposure and hadn't done much of anything the last few weeks so I didn't really think I got the covid)  Luckily, like I said, I feel fine today, but I did do my initial search into getting tested if needed to.  I noticed CVS gives you a swab to do the test on yourself.  I've got to say, I think I'd have a hard time shoving that all the way up my nose and might actually need someone to do it for me  :lol  Looked like different places do things differently though so there were options to go into a doctors office.

Oh yup, it's all different. I wouldn't trust doing the self-test myself, as I might not do it right. I thought it was required the test had to be administered by a nurse or health professional. Maybe, it's just my state.

I asked my sister about it as she was recently positive and tested a couple times.  She said her husband did it himself but she had someone administer it for her.  I definitely didn't know until yesterday you had the option to do it yourself, I really would struggle with that if that were my only option.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 09, 2020, 03:05:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 03:02:23 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 09, 2020, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

I actually had a sore throat this weekend, and it's already mostly gone today but I told myself if it got worse I should get tested just to put myself and everyone at work at ease. (I don't have any known exposure and hadn't done much of anything the last few weeks so I didn't really think I got the covid)  Luckily, like I said, I feel fine today, but I did do my initial search into getting tested if needed to.  I noticed CVS gives you a swab to do the test on yourself.  I've got to say, I think I'd have a hard time shoving that all the way up my nose and might actually need someone to do it for me  :lol  Looked like different places do things differently though so there were options to go into a doctors office.

Oh yup, it's all different. I wouldn't trust doing the self-test myself, as I might not do it right. I thought it was required the test had to be administered by a nurse or health professional. Maybe, it's just my state.

I asked my sister about it as she was recently positive and tested a couple times.  She said her husband did it himself but she had someone administer it for her.  I definitely didn't know until yesterday you had the option to do it yourself, I really would struggle with that if that were my only option.

You saying that there are those tests, got me even more confused about this whole reaction thing.  :lol

That Covid-19 book I'm reading is helping to rationalize things a bit for me, and help me understand it in the broader viewpoint of Pandemics.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on November 09, 2020, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 09, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

According to the web page listed in the OP of this very thread. USA is #1 in cases, but #16 in cases per million. #10 in deaths per million. So I guess it depends on how you look at it, but we certainly can't be proud of our response to the pandemic. Most of the countries who can be said to have it worse than us, don't have our wealth or resources.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 03:11:11 PM

Quote from: Podaar on November 09, 2020, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 09, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

According to the web page listed in the OP of this very thread. USA is #1 in cases, but #16 in cases per million. #10 in deaths per million. So I guess it depends on how you look at it, but we certainly can't be proud of our response to the pandemic. Most of the countries who can be said to have it worse than us, don't have our wealth or resources.

I could take the bolded statement literally, we are one of the most unhealthy countries and covid clearly doesn't go well for people who are already unhealthy so naturally we would be one of the worst if not the worst.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on November 09, 2020, 03:17:50 PM

Our CVS has an expanded minute clinic and they will not administer any tests inside, but you can self test thru the drive thru window.  Like others, I do not trust myself to self test.  I am sure I would hold back on how far to shove the swab up my nose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on November 09, 2020, 08:29:03 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

I actually had a sore throat this weekend, and it's already mostly gone today but I told myself if it got worse I should get tested just to put myself and everyone at work at ease. (I don't have any known exposure and hadn't done much of anything the last few weeks so I didn't really think I got the covid)  Luckily, like I said, I feel fine today, but I did do my initial search into getting tested if needed to.  I noticed CVS gives you a swab to do the test on yourself.  I've got to say, I think I'd have a hard time shoving that all the way up my nose and might actually need someone to do it for me  :lol  Looked like different places do things differently though so there were options to go into a doctors office.

There's no fucking way I could do that to myself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 09, 2020, 09:43:23 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM

My best friend probably has rona now, which, honestly, I'm surprised it's taken this long considering his nightly habits

One of my dad's friends showed up this morning, shook my hand, and then told me his sister was back at home now... quarantining after just getting released from the hospital with COVID. Thanks pal!!!

I guess my question is why is anyone shaking hands for any reason??  That’s the first and (IMO) most obvious thing to stop doing in a pandemic like this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on November 10, 2020, 02:02:07 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 09, 2020, 10:42:48 AM

So my father-in-law has been in ICU for the last week with COVID, so that has sucked.  He finally got moved out of ICU yesterday, but he will probably remain hospitalized for at least a few more days.

My sister-in-law was also hospitalized with COVID last week (and double pneumonia), but she got to come home Saturday.

Both were treated with Remdesevir.

So sorry to hear.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 10, 2020, 08:02:57 AM

Quote from: Podaar on November 09, 2020, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 09, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

According to the web page listed in the OP of this very thread. USA is #1 in cases, but #16 in cases per million. #10 in deaths per million. So I guess it depends on how you look at it, but we certainly can't be proud of our response to the pandemic. Most of the countries who can be said to have it worse than us, don't have our wealth or resources.

Here's my source for cases and deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).  Just over the summer and into early fall, we were No. 10 or 11 on cases per million, so we're improving on that metric*.   Not that we should be celebrating that other countries have more sick people per capita, but a little perspective is in order.   

And as for resources, also not a complete picture.   If you look at this list of "best Healthcare in the world (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world)", San Marino and Andorra are better than us, and Andorra has the most cases per million of ANY country in the world, San Marino fourteenth.  France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg... all better than us, and all either in the same bracket or above us on "cases per million".   By my count, I see four countries with BETTER healthcare than us, and higher than us on the "cases per million" list.  To be fair, that doesn't hold with this source (https://interactives.commonwealthfund.org/2017/july/mirror-mirror/), though we're still 11th, behind France and the UK among others.

For "deaths per million", we are right in front of the UK (who has way less CASES per million, which means more of their cases are resulting in death, percentage wise), and again, BEHIND several countries that have ostensibly better healthcare than we do.

It's all bad, don't misunderstand me, but grand pronouncements should reflect the actual numbers, in my opinion. 

*This is where we go to the P/R thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 08:07:32 AM

Biden's to-be coronavirus mandates sound great for cities but good f'ing luck enforcing those out in rural America or getting people to follow things like 'gatherings limited to one household.'

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 10, 2020, 08:37:24 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 08:07:32 AM

Biden's to-be coronavirus mandates sound great for cities but good f'ing luck enforcing those out in rural America or getting people to follow things like 'gatherings limited to one household.'

What does gatherings limited to one household mean? My household doesn't gather. We just live here. I assume this basically means that no one may enter your home unless they live there, which sounds utterly ridiculous and impossible to enforce.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 10, 2020, 08:44:30 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 10, 2020, 08:37:24 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 08:07:32 AM

Biden's to-be coronavirus mandates sound great for cities but good f'ing luck enforcing those out in rural America or getting people to follow things like 'gatherings limited to one household.'

What does gatherings limited to one household mean? My household doesn't gather. We just live here. I assume this basically means that no one may enter your home unless they live there, which sounds utterly ridiculous and impossible to enforce.

It means you don't hold gatherings with other families. For example, if one household has two parents and two kids, they shouldn't have the two parents and their three kids from next door over for an event.

Of course other people can enter your home. If you need contracting work done, or some critter exterminated, those people can still come and go. If a relative needs to come by, that's fine. If you have to go watch a niece or nephew while your sibling works, that's fine. The objective is to prevent groups from intermingling with other groups for extended periods of time for things like parties, wedding celebrations, celebrations of life, and gender reveals (all things I've been invited to in the last 5-6 weeks).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 08:52:14 AM

I just hung out with 3 buddies last night and have been doing so every few days for the last few weeks. Fuck that. I think if you feel it's safe and the people around you aren't exposed, live your life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 10, 2020, 08:53:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 10, 2020, 08:02:57 AM

Quote from: Podaar on November 09, 2020, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 09, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

According to the web page listed in the OP of this very thread. USA is #1 in cases, but #16 in cases per million. #10 in deaths per million. So I guess it depends on how you look at it, but we certainly can't be proud of our response to the pandemic. Most of the countries who can be said to have it worse than us, don't have our wealth or resources.

Here's my source for cases and deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).  Just over the summer and into early fall, we were No. 10 or 11 on cases per million, so we're improving on that metric*.   Not that we should be celebrating that other countries have more sick people per capita, but a little perspective is in order.   

And as for resources, also not a complete picture.   If you look at this list of "best Healthcare in the world (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world)", San Marino and Andorra are better than us, and Andorra has the most cases per million of ANY country in the world, San Marino fourteenth.  France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg... all better than us, and all either in the same bracket or above us on "cases per million".   By my count, I see four countries with BETTER healthcare than us, and higher than us on the "cases per million" list.  To be fair, that doesn't hold with this source (https://interactives.commonwealthfund.org/2017/july/mirror-mirror/), though we're still 11th, behind France and the UK among others.

For "deaths per million", we are right in front of the UK (who has way less CASES per million, which means more of their cases are resulting in death, percentage wise), and again, BEHIND several countries that have ostensibly better healthcare than we do.

It's all bad, don't misunderstand me, but grand pronouncements should reflect the actual numbers, in my opinion. 

*This is where we go to the P/R thread.

And to just add.....the effort has always been to limit the spread enough as to not overwhelm hospitals/ER's/ICU's. The large percentage of people who get this endure it through rest and isolation at home. I 'get' that we want to limit the spread so the vulnerable don't become infected....I do, I have several family members who are in that category as does everyone. But, they're also being diligent about limiting their exposure to people by still staying isolated.

So while yes.....these numbers are climbing again.....but it's not 100,000 people a day going to the ICU or taking up a hospital bed. A good chunk of those people likely have little to no symptoms or symptoms that pass quickly. And there are probably countless others who are infected that just don't know it or don't go get tested.

The mandatory masks mandate seems like the simplest and most effective way to curb the virus.....with emphasis on hand washing as well. I've read that some states have increased hospital stays.....but, I know the systems here in st. louis are still low in capacity even with a recent increase of positive cases. I haven't seen any clear cut info to support this....but, I think most of this second wave of cases are happening in the younger, healthier population as they're the ones that are out and about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 10, 2020, 09:01:05 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 10, 2020, 08:44:30 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 10, 2020, 08:37:24 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 08:07:32 AM

Biden's to-be coronavirus mandates sound great for cities but good f'ing luck enforcing those out in rural America or getting people to follow things like 'gatherings limited to one household.'

What does gatherings limited to one household mean? My household doesn't gather. We just live here. I assume this basically means that no one may enter your home unless they live there, which sounds utterly ridiculous and impossible to enforce.

It means you don't hold gatherings with other families. For example, if one household has two parents and two kids, they shouldn't have the two parents and their three kids from next door over for an event.

Of course other people can enter your home. If you need contracting work done, or some critter exterminated, those people can still come and go. If a relative needs to come by, that's fine. If you have to go watch a niece or nephew while your sibling works, that's fine. The objective is to prevent groups from intermingling with other groups for extended periods of time for things like parties, wedding celebrations, celebrations of life, and gender reveals (all things I've been invited to in the last 5-6 weeks).

It's gonna be like this more or less everywhere. In Italy it's already being discussed the Christmas period, with only strict relatives being advised for gatherings. Meaning, you don't organize a super party with 25 people attending.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 10, 2020, 09:08:11 AM

Our governor gave an update last week and while we are still below the CDC guide of 5% positivity in the state, our cases per 100k are over the threshold, and he did mention there are more cases amongst the younger population, while hospitalizations continue to trend towards the older population, which makes logical sense. There's been a sense of complacency dispersed as the numbers fell over the summer and the state opened back up bit by bit. We have been quite fortunate and diligent in this state but we aren't infallible and things are climbing, just not as rapidly as other regions. Personally, my family has been erring on the side of caution this entire time, and will continue to do so. We declined going to our niece's first birthday party since the mom was exposed but didn't get a test or self-quarantine (my SIL) and we caught hell from the family for it. In that same vein, we celebrated our own kids' birthdays just us at home, with phone and video calls to others. I'd rather have a less-than-exciting birthday than spread or catch COVID.

The governor's emphasis was on controlling the spread, since at the moment we do not appear to have a hospital crush or bed shortage, though he did point to a nursing shortage. His goal is to mitigate the continuing spread and avoid a massive upsurge and hospital crush. In my personal experience, I have only seen a handful of people not following our state's mask mandate in public, but I also know quite a few people personally who have let their guards down and come back with infections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 10, 2020, 09:36:14 AM

Masks are definitely important in situations where you are out in public or can't socially distance, but they aren't a suit of armor.  One huge item is just not going anywhere that you don't NEED to go.  There are tons of people living their life just like before the pandemic, except with a mask.  The more places you go, the more risk you take.

We haven't gone anywhere, really.  We get most groceries delivered.  We order any other items we want to purchase.  We don't go shopping anywhere other than occasional grocery trips to get something specific.  We don't go to restaurants.  I haven't been to a bookstore in months, which is sad, but I've ordered plenty of books.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 10, 2020, 09:39:55 AM

Recently the wife and I went to Vermont for our Anniversary.  We went to 2 restaurants.  Both were extremely well spaced for covid.  We didn't chance anything else and just drove the countryside and enjoyed Vermont.  The B&B was well spaced with 2 tables that has normally 6 people per table to only my wife and I for 45 minutes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 10, 2020, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 10, 2020, 09:39:55 AM

Recently the wife and I went to Vermont for our Anniversary.  We went to 2 restaurants.  Both were extremely well spaced for covid.  We didn't chance anything else and just drove the countryside and enjoyed Vermont.  The B&B was well spaced with 2 tables that has normally 6 people per table to only my wife and I for 45 minutes.

I'm glad you were able to do that.

But we wouldn't dream of it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 10, 2020, 10:02:08 AM

I think most things you can do are pretty safe, keep your distance, wash your hands, wear a mask, and it seems almost everything is not going to be that dangerous.  It's when you ease up on those things that you can put yourself in danger.  I don't see any evidence costco's are spreaders for example and the couple times I've gone during the pandemic, it's an insane amount of people where it's not possible to keep distance, but everyone wears a mask and you clean your hands and cart before entering/leaving.  The mask is not a guarantee though to keep you safe, so Hef is definitely right that limiting your exposure is the safest bet.

My road trip last month to Maine was a success (I didn't get sick) and it as my first time dining out and staying at hotels.  It was weird at first, but I never once felt unsafe (except the time I got take out from a bar in Boston and there was someone there drinking who wouldn't stop talking to me (and since we both had a drink our masks were off)  I finally just stopped talking back and he got the hint, but the rules did have us separated a bit at the bar)

I also think, because I've been showing up to work throughout the entire pandemic, that I feel a bit more comfortable being out.  Having said that, I literally do nothing besides grocery shopping and walks in the parks.

However, my parents are really pushing me to come to Florida for Christmas and I'm starting to lean to flying down there.  I have the time off from work, my boss supports the idea, and everything I've read says flying is actually really safe.  My parents are cool with it too.  I'm doing Thanksgiving solo this year and I'd really rather not do Christmas solo too.  It would just be with my immediate family (most of will already be in Florida from Thanksgiving) and no plans on really doing anything outside the house besides the flights there and back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 10, 2020, 10:25:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 03:11:11 PM

Quote from: Podaar on November 09, 2020, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 09, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

According to the web page listed in the OP of this very thread. USA is #1 in cases, but #16 in cases per million. #10 in deaths per million. So I guess it depends on how you look at it, but we certainly can't be proud of our response to the pandemic. Most of the countries who can be said to have it worse than us, don't have our wealth or resources.

I could take the bolded statement literally, we are one of the most unhealthy countries and covid clearly doesn't go well for people who are already unhealthy so naturally we would be one of the worst if not the worst.

Dude, America was the country to begin the production of Modern Processed Foods, The most unhealthiest form of food, and then rose the Fast Food Industry, full of Unhealthy Fats and Non-Nutritious Food products. It's actually no surprise at all that we are this Unhealthy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_processing#Nutrient_losses
https://modernpioneermom.com/2012/07/05/processed-foods-history-1910s-to-1950s/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/processed-foods

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 10, 2020, 10:36:57 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 10, 2020, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 10, 2020, 09:39:55 AM

Recently the wife and I went to Vermont for our Anniversary.  We went to 2 restaurants.  Both were extremely well spaced for covid.  We didn't chance anything else and just drove the countryside and enjoyed Vermont.  The B&B was well spaced with 2 tables that has normally 6 people per table to only my wife and I for 45 minutes.

I'm glad you were able to do that.

But we wouldn't dream of it.

I wouldn't lie to say I wasn't nervous.  We avoided any large groups at all and did not walk on any downtown areas.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 10, 2020, 01:08:44 PM

We traveled in June/July to my condo at the beach. If we were outside, we were masked. The community is private and has a private security force that enforced social distancing on the beach (umbrella groups no closer than 10 feet apart) and strict occupancy limits in the pools, which closed every 2 hours for thorough disinfecting. Masks were required anywhere social distancing was compromised, like in stairwells, and elevator occupancy was limited to individual family groups at a time. For the most part, all guests and owners followed the rules and the community reported that they had not a single positive COVID test result or any reports of exposure throughout the summer season, be it among staff or guests. That said, we didn't really go anywhere. We took advantage of socially distant beach and pool use, and carried in or cooked all of our meals. Places were offering contactless delivery and curbside pickup.

That's all we've done. My kids have been wonderful sports about this entire ordeal, and I feel very fortunate for that, and I am extremely comforted by knowing that my family is safely ensconced in our home. We get groceries, packages, and food delivered when possible. Can't say the same for my wife's extended family, who held a large gathering in a restaurant to honor her grandmother, who passed from COVID.....most without masks, a few who had potential prior exposure, and several who are frontline nurses. We did not attend, as heart wrenching as that was for my wife.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 10, 2020, 01:20:17 PM

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 10, 2020, 01:08:44 PM

Can't say the same for my wife's extended family, who held a large gathering in a restaurant to honor her grandmother, who passed from COVID.....most without masks, a few who had potential prior exposure, and several who are frontline nurses. We did not attend, as heart wrenching as that was for my wife.

Yea, I had a similar experience.  My grandma passed from covid in April which at that time, we couldn't gather at all, but in like June the family set up a service and a lunch, so I went to the service where there were only like 20 of us, socially distant with masks on the entire time.  I told everyone I had to go back to work and couldn't do the lunch, but the reality is, I wasn't comfortable taking the masks off to break bread with my extended family. A significiant amount of the extended family didn't come to the service because they weren't comfortable.  It lead to lots of fighting which was really bothersome to me.  I think, today, I would feel more comfortable doing the lunch, but not by much.  Having 20 people gather to eat and drink still sounds like it's not the best idea, especially with most being over the age of 50.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 10, 2020, 01:23:30 PM

I am sorry for your loss, which I likely missed if you mentioned it while I read through the thread.

The animosity we have faced from her family for simply wanting to be cautious and keep ourselves safe is disheartening and has been a bit of a crisis for my wife. Different stories for different times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 10, 2020, 02:59:27 PM

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 10, 2020, 01:23:30 PM

I am sorry for your loss, which I likely missed if you mentioned it while I read through the thread.

The animosity we have faced from her family for simply wanting to be cautious and keep ourselves safe is disheartening and has been a bit of a crisis for my wife. Different stories for different times.

Sorry for your loss as well, it just sucks to see the fighting internally in a family because of the pandemic.  Like, I don't understand why we can't be understanding of each other's feelings and cautiousness.  It SUCKS, but it shouldn't be taken personally.  Just trying to do our part in keeping ourselves and others safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 10, 2020, 05:17:21 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 10, 2020, 08:02:57 AM

Here's my source for cases and deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).  Just over the summer and into early fall, we were No. 10 or 11 on cases per million, so we're improving on that metric*.   Not that we should be celebrating that other countries have more sick people per capita, but a little perspective is in order.

I'm wondering if the US is trending such that they are falling down to 16th, or the countries are trending such that they are surpassing the US? 

Quote from: Stadler on November 10, 2020, 08:02:57 AM

And as for resources, also not a complete picture.   If you look at this list of "best Healthcare in the world (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world)", San Marino and Andorra are better than us, and Andorra has the most cases per million of ANY country in the world, San Marino fourteenth. 

Are you really comparing the US situation against a country who's population is 77,000 over a 450² meter patch of land that is basically a suburb of France ... or Spain (take your pick)? C'mon man, you're better than that.  One cluster / outbreak and they're the worst country in the world!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 10, 2020, 05:19:33 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 10, 2020, 09:36:14 AM

Masks are definitely important in situations where you are out in public or can't socially distance, but they aren't a suit of armor.  One huge item is just not going anywhere that you don't NEED to go.  There are tons of people living their life just like before the pandemic, except with a mask.  The more places you go, the more risk you take.

We haven't gone anywhere, really.  We get most groceries delivered.  We order any other items we want to purchase.  We don't go shopping anywhere other than occasional grocery trips to get something specific.  We don't go to restaurants.  I haven't been to a bookstore in months, which is sad, but I've ordered plenty of books.

This is the jingle.household to a tee.

Minus the books and reading.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on November 11, 2020, 05:44:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 10, 2020, 05:17:21 PM

Are you really comparing the US situation against a country who's population is 77,000 over a 450² meter patch of land that is basically a suburb of France ... or Spain (take your pick)? C'mon man, you're better than that.  One cluster / outbreak and they're the worst country in the world!

Yeah, that got a pretty big laugh out of me yesterday. Stads has got to be kidding. Right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 11, 2020, 09:36:02 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 10, 2020, 05:17:21 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 10, 2020, 08:02:57 AM

Here's my source for cases and deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/).  Just over the summer and into early fall, we were No. 10 or 11 on cases per million, so we're improving on that metric*.   Not that we should be celebrating that other countries have more sick people per capita, but a little perspective is in order.

I'm wondering if the US is trending such that they are falling down to 16th, or the countries are trending such that they are surpassing the US? 

Quote from: Stadler on November 10, 2020, 08:02:57 AM

And as for resources, also not a complete picture.   If you look at this list of "best Healthcare in the world (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world)", San Marino and Andorra are better than us, and Andorra has the most cases per million of ANY country in the world, San Marino fourteenth. 

Are you really comparing the US situation against a country who's population is 77,000 over a 450² meter patch of land that is basically a suburb of France ... or Spain (take your pick)? C'mon man, you're better than that.  One cluster / outbreak and they're the worst country in the world!

Data is data.   The comment was we are the worst, and it's not even close.   We're not the worst, and it is close.

We can quibble about "square milage" (and you can ignore the entire rest of my post that DIDN'T focus on Andorra), but Andorra is between France and Spain; we're 16th on the list of cases per million, Spain is 18th (a difference of 3%), and France is 20th (a difference of about 12%).   In the "deaths per million" category, we're 10th and Spain is 5th (understand that: with better healthcare, more people who get sick in Spain die of COVID than in the US).  This isn't me isolating an island in the middle of the Pacific and trying to equate it with the US, and it's embarrassing that you would think that.    I'd be happy to use Spain, or France, or, if you will, the entire three countries combined, and my point is still made.  That is ultimately the point, though: WE NEED TO DO THE MATH. 

In fact, let's do that.

US:   331.0M            10.6M cases        246.0k deaths       31.9k cases/m       742 deaths/m

Spain:  46.8M
France: 65.3M
Andorra:  77.3k
Total:  112.1M           3.3M cases         81.9k deaths         29.4k cases/m        730 deaths/m

Reminder:  in the other cite I gave just a handful of posts above, in terms of "healthcare ranks", France is 1, Andorra is 4, and Spain is 7.  We are - with Obamacare in place for 12 years now - 37th.   And yet the numbers are in single digit percentages of each other (the deaths/m is literally a 1.5% difference).   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 11, 2020, 12:35:25 PM

Now that is insightful analysis!  Seriously.

Also, I know exactly where Andorra is (in case that wasn't clear).  I did a paper on the country in Grade 10 Geography.  I subtitled it "the place where there is very little place".  I don't remember anything else about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 12:56:31 PM

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/ (https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/)

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 11, 2020, 01:29:17 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 11, 2020, 12:35:25 PM

Now that is insightful analysis!  Seriously.

Also, I know exactly where Andorra is (in case that wasn't clear).  I did a paper on the country in Grade 10 Geography.  I subtitled it "the place where there is very little place".  I don't remember anything else about it.

I can't remember what SCHOOL I was in in 10th grade.  That's not true, but close.

Also, I know YOU know, you said it; I put it in there lest some joker say "But Stads, why did you just pick France and Spain!".   And France doesn't help my numbers; I'd've been better to leave it out if I was looking to game things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 11, 2020, 02:20:36 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 11, 2020, 01:29:17 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 11, 2020, 12:35:25 PM

Now that is insightful analysis!  Seriously.

Also, I know exactly where Andorra is (in case that wasn't clear).  I did a paper on the country in Grade 10 Geography.  I subtitled it "the place where there is very little place".  I don't remember anything else about it.

I can't remember what SCHOOL I was in in 10th grade.  That's not true, but close.

Also, I know YOU know, you said it; I put it in there lest some joker say "But Stads, why did you just pick France and Spain!".   And France doesn't help my numbers; I'd've been better to leave it out if I was looking to game things.

 :tup  Just wasn't sure why you referenced a Pacific island.  All cool, mang.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on November 11, 2020, 02:25:01 PM

A school district just north of me has reported some great numbers. Within less than a week from returning to in school instruction, the district now has over 300 teachers and students in quarantine due to the virus. They are struggling to find substitute teachers to even teach the classes.

The high school announced 11 positive cases the day before they were going to return.

The district had a board meeting to announce a full return to virtual learning. They had 5 people speak to the board. 3 of them vehemently argued for a return to the classroom. Oh, and all 3 were from the same family.  :facepalm:

Everyday I feel better that my son chose to stay virtual.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 11, 2020, 02:26:32 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 12:56:31 PM

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/ (https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/)

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 11, 2020, 02:29:07 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on November 11, 2020, 02:25:01 PM

A school district just north of me has reported some great numbers. Within less than a week from returning to in school instruction, the district now has over 300 teachers and students in quarantine due to the virus. They are struggling to find substitute teachers to even teach the classes.

The high school announced 11 positive cases the day before they were going to return.

The district had a board meeting to announce a full return to virtual learning. They had 5 people speak to the board. 3 of them vehemently argued for a return to the classroom. Oh, and all 3 were from the same family.  :facepalm:

Everyday I feel better that my son chose to stay virtual.

Public schools in my county have remained 100% virtual despite VEHEMENT protests from parents that there is "no reason why students shouldn't be in schools." Many area private schools, who have a mere fraction of the public student population and mountains more resources, have opened hybrid models with impressive success. Both of my kids are virtual and will remain as such for the foreseeable future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 02:30:47 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 11, 2020, 02:26:32 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 12:56:31 PM

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/ (https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/)

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

That article stated they are using an intermediary company so that medical records are not shared, but yea, I don't know the legalities, but for concerts, I'm going to guess since you don't need to go, as part of buying a ticket, you'll have to agree to the terms which could include vaccination or negative test result. 

The whole temperature check thing is a joke.  I get scanned everyday I come into work and it's totally meaningless for protecting against Corona.  No one should be going into work with a fever, pandemic or not IMO and you know when you have a fever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 11, 2020, 02:42:17 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 02:30:47 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 11, 2020, 02:26:32 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 12:56:31 PM

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/ (https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/)

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

That article stated they are using an intermediary company so that medical records are not shared, but yea, I don't know the legalities, but for concerts, I'm going to guess since you don't need to go, as part of buying a ticket, you'll have to agree to the terms which could include vaccination or negative test result. 

The whole temperature check thing is a joke.  I get scanned everyday I come into work and it's totally meaningless for protecting against Corona.  No one should be going into work with a fever, pandemic or not IMO and you know when you have a fever.

Even with a third party involved, a private company is demanding to know your private medical info in order to use their services. This should not be legal.

And yes, the temperature check thing is only going to be more ridiculous as winter sets in. My work has one and my temp is usually around 92F when I scan myself in the morning due to the cold temperatures outside making my skin momentarily cold. I could be running a fever of 103F and it probably wouldn't catch me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 07:12:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 11, 2020, 02:26:32 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 12:56:31 PM

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/ (https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/)

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

The legality of a number of things are certainly in question around COVID.  I can't tell you if it's "legal" for "x" to take your temperature; it probably depends a lot on the situation, including "x".  But I feel more comfortable saying they DO have the right to not let you in to their premises if certain criteria aren't met.  Again, depends on the premises (schools aren't the same as concert venues) but there's always going to be a decision point on this stuff. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 07:16:03 AM

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 11, 2020, 02:29:07 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on November 11, 2020, 02:25:01 PM

A school district just north of me has reported some great numbers. Within less than a week from returning to in school instruction, the district now has over 300 teachers and students in quarantine due to the virus. They are struggling to find substitute teachers to even teach the classes.

The high school announced 11 positive cases the day before they were going to return.

The district had a board meeting to announce a full return to virtual learning. They had 5 people speak to the board. 3 of them vehemently argued for a return to the classroom. Oh, and all 3 were from the same family.  :facepalm:

Everyday I feel better that my son chose to stay virtual.

Public schools in my county have remained 100% virtual despite VEHEMENT protests from parents that there is "no reason why students shouldn't be in schools." Many area private schools, who have a mere fraction of the public student population and mountains more resources, have opened hybrid models with impressive success. Both of my kids are virtual and will remain as such for the foreseeable future.

It depends what you mean by "impressive success".   My town is hybrid, moving toward full virtual (we expect the call any day now).   I've written frequently that though it's moderately successful from a COVID standpoint, my kid hasn't learned a damn thing since February.   It's not working at all from an education standpoint, and so many things are more... lax, though that isn't the right word, now that we're virtual.   We had no problem calling a meeting and going in and sitting with the administration if performance wasn't where it should be, and now everytihng is emails and phone, and you just do not have the full attention of the people you need full attention from in that scenario.  We are to the point we are more than likely moving, solely because of the school system.   My choice, I get that, and I'm fine with it, but in my town there are no "impressive successes" when it comes to the school and COVID.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 12, 2020, 07:25:09 AM

By impressive success I was referring to mitigating the spread of COVID amongst the students who were attending school on campus. The private school where my daughter goes (which is where I went, and hopefully where my son will attend next year) has had zero incidence of school community spread of the virus and the only quarantining that has been required has been for possible exposure from outside the school environment. They send weekly reports to all alumni, families, staff, and faculty.

Private schools have MANY added luxuries and resource a public system simply just doesn't have. They seem to be using them to their advantage.
I will add, though, that given the current state and trend of our state's metrics, I would not be surprised to see a pivot back to all virtual in the coming weeks. The school maintains constant communication of their preparedness should that be necessary.

As for their virtual school results, I can only speak for my daughter in kindergarten; she has been all virtual and she has thrived given the circumstances.
My son has had great success in public virtual school, though I recognize how wide and varied results are and can be. He enjoys the experience and his grades and assessments from his teachers reflect that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on November 12, 2020, 07:29:55 AM

Our school district went to e-learning for Grades 6-12 because they don't have enough substitute teachers to cover the classes.  Manpower resources are being allocated to the elementary schools for the time being.  Remains to be seen how long that will last.  As cases continue to climb in my area, my county added just under 4,000 cases in the last week, I would not be surprised to see schools stay on e-learning through the holidays.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 12, 2020, 08:10:47 AM

Quote from: romdrums on November 12, 2020, 07:29:55 AM

Our school district went to e-learning for Grades 6-12 because they don't have enough substitute teachers to cover the classes.  Manpower resources are being allocated to the elementary schools for the time being.  Remains to be seen how long that will last.  As cases continue to climb in my area, my county added just under 4,000 cases in the last week, I would not be surprised to see schools stay on e-learning through the holidays.

My county's school system released a reopening plan that involves opening 4 separate special education day schools and phasing in grades PK through 2, all based on metrics. Prior to October, the decision was virtual through the month of January, with a choice, if available, of virtual or hybrid for the second semester. Given the current metrics trend, I cannot envision public schools returning from virtual in any form until the next school year. But I'm not an expert and could be extremely wrong. My kids will remain virtual as long as it is an option.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 12, 2020, 08:45:08 AM

I really think it is not really all that valuable to just simply look at one countries total covid numbers and/or deaths and divide it by the population. Waaaay too many variables. Accurately reporting cases, living conditions/lifestyles, dynamics of the population etc. To really determine which country is doing worse would require a large combined effort of researchers across different fields. At least that is how I see it. And that analysis will unfortunately be hindsight. It also depends on the definition of worse.

For example, I could write a post about the state of New York (19,5 million) compared to The Netherlands (17 million) and compare deaths thus far (34 thousand vs 8,5 thousand). But I feel that isn't scientifically proper at all. We, for example, do not have a "hotspot" town with more than 8 million people. And then the state of New York is 141.300 km² and The Netherlands only 41,865 km² and a lot of very interconnected "hotspot" towns close to each other. Those are just two differences that can mean so many things for how spread takes place. And a lot of variables tend to be hard to put into numbers. And I know one is a state and the other is a country, but that is another example of how you can select and analyze datasets very differently. And I am most certainly not an expert on that field.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 10:51:04 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 12, 2020, 08:45:08 AM

I really think it is not really all that valuable to just simply look at one countries total covid numbers and/or deaths and divide it by the population. Waaaay too many variables. Accurately reporting cases, living conditions/lifestyles, dynamics of the population etc. To really determine which country is doing worse would require a large combined effort of researchers across different fields. At least that is how I see it. And that analysis will unfortunately be hindsight. It also depends on the definition of worse.

For example, I could write a post about the state of New York (19,5 million) compared to The Netherlands (17 million) and compare deaths thus far (34 thousand vs 8,5 thousand). But I feel that isn't scientifically proper at all. We, for example, do not have a "hotspot" town with more than 8 million people. And then the state of New York is 141.300 km² and The Netherlands only 41,865 km² and a lot of very interconnected "hotspot" towns close to each other. Those are just two differences that can mean so many things for how spread takes place. And a lot of variables tend to be hard to put into numbers. And I know one is a state and the other is a country, but that is another example of how you can select and analyze datasets very differently. And I am most certainly not an expert on that field.

I agree with you, strongly, but the same arguments you make for not just dividing by population hold for just taking raw numbers, too.  There are simply too many variables.  This is a fantastic example of where the quippy soundbite just does not do the issue justice.  It cannot be measured accurately in one neat, nice statistic. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 12, 2020, 12:18:35 PM

Many of the variables are also human, and about social conventions. In Italy there are generally many older people, so there's more people at risk to begin with. Also in Italy a lot of people still live with their parents well into adulthood, so the chances of contagions in the family is higher.

Similar nations also have different clusters of population. Paris in France is a megacity that has 1/6th or so of the entire population; Italy has not such a big cities and the two biggest one, Rome and Milan, are spread apart. The Netherlands is smaller and is close to Germany with which, I assume, there are many exchanges on both sides of the border.... basically in Europe you can't look at what one nation is doing and apply it to another one because there are so many differences.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 12, 2020, 12:28:00 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 12, 2020, 12:18:35 PM

Many of the variables are also human, and about social conventions. In Italy there are generally many older people, so there's more people at risk to begin with. Also in Italy a lot of people still live with their parents well into adulthood, so the chances of contagions in the family is higher.

Similar nations also have different clusters of population. Paris in France is a megacity that has 1/6th or so of the entire population; Italy has not such a big cities and the two biggest one, Rome and Milan, are spread apart. The Netherlands is smaller and is close to Germany with which, I assume, there are many exchanges on both sides of the border.... basically in Europe you can't look at what one nation is doing and apply it to another one because there are so many differences.

You could say the same thing about the states in the US.  Every state has different demographics and is handling the pandemic differently. It's really hard to take everything into account and try to find some key stats.  There's so many variables.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 01:00:57 PM

Going out to eat for the first time since rona hit the country on Sunday; sushi joint, already used to outdoor seating, but it's supposed to be cold, so I'm curious how this is gonna work, I wonder if they'll have a canopy or something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 03:05:43 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 01:00:57 PM

Going out to eat for the first time since rona hit the country on Sunday; sushi joint, already used to outdoor seating, but it's supposed to be cold, so I'm curious how this is gonna work, I wonder if they'll have a canopy or something.

If this is with your girl, please don't spend the entire evening whining about the cold and wishing for a canopy.   :) :)  Do bring a jacket that can conveniently be put over her shoulders, though.  When given lemons, make lemonade!  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 03:07:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 03:05:43 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 01:00:57 PM

Going out to eat for the first time since rona hit the country on Sunday; sushi joint, already used to outdoor seating, but it's supposed to be cold, so I'm curious how this is gonna work, I wonder if they'll have a canopy or something.

If this is with your girl, please don't spend the entire evening whining about the cold and wishing for a canopy.   :) :)  Do bring a jacket that can conveniently be put over her shoulders, though.  When given lemons, make lemonade!  :)

It is, and I will take your advice! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 03:09:22 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 03:07:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 03:05:43 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 01:00:57 PM

Going out to eat for the first time since rona hit the country on Sunday; sushi joint, already used to outdoor seating, but it's supposed to be cold, so I'm curious how this is gonna work, I wonder if they'll have a canopy or something.

If this is with your girl, please don't spend the entire evening whining about the cold and wishing for a canopy.   :) :)  Do bring a jacket that can conveniently be put over her shoulders, though.  When given lemons, make lemonade!  :)

It is, and I will take your advice! :lol

In all seriousness, good luck.  Just be you.  You'll be FINE.   Remember, SHE asked YOU, so she wants to be with you, the guy she's been texting with/DM'ing/smoke signals-ing with, whatever you friggin' kids do. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 03:10:11 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 03:09:22 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 03:07:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 03:05:43 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 12, 2020, 01:00:57 PM

Going out to eat for the first time since rona hit the country on Sunday; sushi joint, already used to outdoor seating, but it's supposed to be cold, so I'm curious how this is gonna work, I wonder if they'll have a canopy or something.

If this is with your girl, please don't spend the entire evening whining about the cold and wishing for a canopy.   :) :)  Do bring a jacket that can conveniently be put over her shoulders, though.  When given lemons, make lemonade!  :)

It is, and I will take your advice! :lol

In all seriousness, good luck.  Just be you.  You'll be FINE.   Remember, SHE asked YOU, so she wants to be with you, the guy she's been texting with/DM'ing/smoke signals-ing with, whatever you friggin' kids do.

Appreciate it, brother. :hug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 12, 2020, 07:12:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 11, 2020, 02:26:32 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 11, 2020, 12:56:31 PM

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/ (https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/)

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

The legality of a number of things are certainly in question around COVID.  I can't tell you if it's "legal" for "x" to take your temperature; it probably depends a lot on the situation, including "x".  But I feel more comfortable saying they DO have the right to not let you in to their premises if certain criteria aren't met.  Again, depends on the premises (schools aren't the same as concert venues) but there's always going to be a decision point on this stuff. 

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 13, 2020, 07:41:22 AM

There is an announcement scheduled for today that is set to re-introduce restrictions that they're calling "safer-at-home" restrictions .

 - Restaurants/Bars have to close to indoor service but can outdoor dine or carry out/drive thru
-  Businesses including gyms/churches reduced to 25% capacity (currently set at 50%)
-  Maximum gatherings set at 10 people (currently 49)
-  People strongly urged to work from home

St. Louis is seeing a pretty big uptick in cases....our kids school district has sent all the kids back virtual full time for the next two weeks based off of the percentage of students and teachers who've tested positive for covid. The superintendent said that 5% was her benchmark for individual schools and the district when considering shut downs. There had been couple schools that were shut down already but the numbers across the district grew as well so she shut it all down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on November 13, 2020, 07:46:30 AM

Restaurants and bars here in Sweden can't serve alcohol after 10 PM now. I wonder how many of them are going to close now, they're already having a tough time financially.

We are urged to start working from home again, and to take Covid tests at the slightest symptoms of a cold or a flu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on November 13, 2020, 07:52:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 13, 2020, 07:41:22 AM

There is an announcement scheduled for today that is set to re-introduce restrictions that they're calling "safer-at-home" restrictions .

 - Restaurants/Bars have to close to indoor service but can outdoor dine or carry out/drive thru
-  Businesses including gyms/churches reduced to 25% capacity (currently set at 50%)
-  Maximum gatherings set at 10 people (currently 49)
-  People strongly urged to work from home

St. Louis is seeing a pretty big uptick in cases....our kids school district has sent all the kids back virtual full time for the next two weeks based off of the percentage of students and teachers who've tested positive for covid. The superintendent said that 5% was her benchmark for individual schools and the district when considering shut downs. There had been couple schools that were shut down already but the numbers across the district grew as well so she shut it all down.

Oh yeah, I forgot there's a fellow StLouisian here. We are getting an uptick. My uni has been doing a lot of moralistic badgering along these lines. I swear, if they close the gym...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:19:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Well, your foreskin isn't contagious, or a deadly disease, so I'm not sure that's the best analogy.  HIV - unless you're going to fuck your fellow Aldi shopper in the meat aisle, I don't see this as a growing concern.  Given how significant the public health issue is around COVID, I've got no problem in businesses expanding what they will accept and not accept from their clientele.  If they can dictate what's acceptable attire, I think they have the right to dictate what's acceptable vis-a-vis communicable deadly disease(s).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:21:53 AM

Quote from: H2 on November 13, 2020, 07:52:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 13, 2020, 07:41:22 AM

There is an announcement scheduled for today that is set to re-introduce restrictions that they're calling "safer-at-home" restrictions .

 - Restaurants/Bars have to close to indoor service but can outdoor dine or carry out/drive thru
-  Businesses including gyms/churches reduced to 25% capacity (currently set at 50%)
-  Maximum gatherings set at 10 people (currently 49)
-  People strongly urged to work from home

St. Louis is seeing a pretty big uptick in cases....our kids school district has sent all the kids back virtual full time for the next two weeks based off of the percentage of students and teachers who've tested positive for covid. The superintendent said that 5% was her benchmark for individual schools and the district when considering shut downs. There had been couple schools that were shut down already but the numbers across the district grew as well so she shut it all down.

Oh yeah, I forgot there's a fellow StLouisian here. We are getting an uptick. My uni has been doing a lot of moralistic badgering along these lines. I swear, if they close the gym...

Or maybe they're just badgering in the hopes of keeping people from getting and/or spreading COVID??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on November 13, 2020, 09:16:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:21:53 AM

Quote from: H2 on November 13, 2020, 07:52:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 13, 2020, 07:41:22 AM

There is an announcement scheduled for today that is set to re-introduce restrictions that they're calling "safer-at-home" restrictions .

 - Restaurants/Bars have to close to indoor service but can outdoor dine or carry out/drive thru
-  Businesses including gyms/churches reduced to 25% capacity (currently set at 50%)
-  Maximum gatherings set at 10 people (currently 49)
-  People strongly urged to work from home

St. Louis is seeing a pretty big uptick in cases....our kids school district has sent all the kids back virtual full time for the next two weeks based off of the percentage of students and teachers who've tested positive for covid. The superintendent said that 5% was her benchmark for individual schools and the district when considering shut downs. There had been couple schools that were shut down already but the numbers across the district grew as well so she shut it all down.

Oh yeah, I forgot there's a fellow StLouisian here. We are getting an uptick. My uni has been doing a lot of moralistic badgering along these lines. I swear, if they close the gym...

Or maybe they're just badgering in the hopes of keeping people from getting and/or spreading COVID??

I have mixed feelings about this kind of thing.  On one hand, it angers me to no end to see the government treating us like children and forcing things to lock down that don't need to be locked down as long as people take reasonable precautions and remain reasonably distant and safe.  Nothing has changed in that regard:  If you remain AT LEAST 6 feet apart and/or wear masks, avoid crowding, especially indoors, don't touch your face, and wash frequently, you will remain safe.  People and businesses are fully capable of doing these things and don't need to have the government inserting itself into our lives to force the issue by acting like mini-dictators.  But on the other hand...significant enough portions of the population continue to demonstrate by their behavior that they apparently do NOT understand how to be reasonably safe, so I guess we apparently DO need the government to force us to be more locked down than necessary because of the actions of a few.  smh

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 13, 2020, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:19:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Well, your foreskin isn't contagious, or a deadly disease, so I'm not sure that's the best analogy.  HIV - unless you're going to fuck your fellow Aldi shopper in the meat aisle, I don't see this as a growing concern.  Given how significant the public health issue is around COVID, I've got no problem in businesses expanding what they will accept and not accept from their clientele.  If they can dictate what's acceptable attire, I think they have the right to dictate what's acceptable vis-a-vis communicable deadly disease(s).

You've not seen my foreskin. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 13, 2020, 09:22:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 13, 2020, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:19:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Well, your foreskin isn't contagious, or a deadly disease, so I'm not sure that's the best analogy.  HIV - unless you're going to fuck your fellow Aldi shopper in the meat aisle, I don't see this as a growing concern.  Given how significant the public health issue is around COVID, I've got no problem in businesses expanding what they will accept and not accept from their clientele.  If they can dictate what's acceptable attire, I think they have the right to dictate what's acceptable vis-a-vis communicable deadly disease(s).

You've not seen my foreskin.

I was having a good Friday until this.  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 13, 2020, 09:23:33 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 13, 2020, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:19:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Well, your foreskin isn't contagious, or a deadly disease, so I'm not sure that's the best analogy.  HIV - unless you're going to fuck your fellow Aldi shopper in the meat aisle, I don't see this as a growing concern.  Given how significant the public health issue is around COVID, I've got no problem in businesses expanding what they will accept and not accept from their clientele.  If they can dictate what's acceptable attire, I think they have the right to dictate what's acceptable vis-a-vis communicable deadly disease(s).

You've not seen my foreskin. 

B.J. Smegma of 13, The Cresent, Belmont?

Will you stand up, please.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 09:24:01 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:19:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Well, your foreskin isn't contagious, or a deadly disease, so I'm not sure that's the best analogy.  HIV - unless you're going to fuck your fellow Aldi shopper in the meat aisle, I don't see this as a growing concern.  Given how significant the public health issue is around COVID, I've got no problem in businesses expanding what they will accept and not accept from their clientele.  If they can dictate what's acceptable attire, I think they have the right to dictate what's acceptable vis-a-vis communicable deadly disease(s).

I get that those aren't the best analogies. They weren't intended to be a perfect correlation, more just that all of those thing are private medical information that a store or business has zero right to know. I fear that this pandemic may be the end of private medical information and that it is going to be perfectly acceptable for a business to demand to know your medical status when it comes to any number of things in the name of safety.

My company requires anyone entering the building to take their temperature and they may not enter if it is above 99.5F or something like that. However, our legal group has determined that we as a company do not have the legal right to know what anyone's temperature is, so it's basically a self reporting thing. Scan yourself and be honest and leave if it's high. We even have shields on the scanner that on the wall so no one else around can read it. I went to a restaurant a few months ago that took my temperature and then said it out loud for everyone around to hear. It just feels like there is no guidance from anyone as to what's legal and acceptable. Honestly I think many people don't give a shit if it's legal or not. Screw the law, we're in a pandemic.

I personally think privacy is important and we shouldn't throw it out because of the pandemic. We definitely shouldn't ignore laws already in place regarding privacy of medical information. I wish there would be some guidance on a state and/or national level as to what its legal for businesses to ask for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 13, 2020, 09:29:17 AM

One of my best friends is a pediatrician and regularly tests kids and has positive patients.  Well this morning he got a positive results and while speaking to the mom, told her the whole family needs to quarantine for two weeks and she flipped out saying she wants to live her life.... and this is why we are here.  How long has this been going on? AND you still don't get it that you need to quarantine to stop the spread that you are carrying? I hate people sometimes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 13, 2020, 09:52:49 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 13, 2020, 09:22:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 13, 2020, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:19:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Well, your foreskin isn't contagious, or a deadly disease, so I'm not sure that's the best analogy.  HIV - unless you're going to fuck your fellow Aldi shopper in the meat aisle, I don't see this as a growing concern.  Given how significant the public health issue is around COVID, I've got no problem in businesses expanding what they will accept and not accept from their clientele.  If they can dictate what's acceptable attire, I think they have the right to dictate what's acceptable vis-a-vis communicable deadly disease(s).

You've not seen my foreskin.

I was having a good Friday until this.  :rollin

 :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 10:01:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 13, 2020, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 08:19:56 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 07:28:31 AM

Oh yeah, I agree to a point. No shirt, no shoes, no service. No problem with that kind of external stuff being a factor in being allowed in a business. That can extend to masks now. It can also apply to certain types of behaviors like how you're treating staff and other customers. You can certainly be kicked out of a grocery store for taking a bite of an apple and putting it back for example. The thing is, those are all external things that anyone can readily observe. I'd have a huge problem if a store said it only served circumsized men, so either whip it out and prove it or provide a doctor's note. Or demanding to see a negative HIV test from the last 60 days before you can enter their store. Once you're being asked to provide private information that isn't openly apparent to everyone observing you, that's where the line is crossed to me. I have no idea what the legality of this kind of stuff is, but I suspect that the law will be bent if not broken for Covid related things for a while.

Well, your foreskin isn't contagious, or a deadly disease, so I'm not sure that's the best analogy.  HIV - unless you're going to fuck your fellow Aldi shopper in the meat aisle, I don't see this as a growing concern.  Given how significant the public health issue is around COVID, I've got no problem in businesses expanding what they will accept and not accept from their clientele.  If they can dictate what's acceptable attire, I think they have the right to dictate what's acceptable vis-a-vis communicable deadly disease(s).

You've not seen my foreskin.

:spitcoffee:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 10:24:30 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 09:24:01 AM

I fear that this pandemic may be the end of private medical information and that it is going to be perfectly acceptable for a business to demand to know your medical status when it comes to any number of things in the name of safety.

Fair, and I say let's fight those battles if/when they arise.  Fear of what *might* happen shouldn't excuse detrimental behaviour around what *is* happening.  That's just me though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 10:27:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 10:24:30 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 09:24:01 AM

I fear that this pandemic may be the end of private medical information and that it is going to be perfectly acceptable for a business to demand to know your medical status when it comes to any number of things in the name of safety.

Fair, and I say let's fight those battles if/when they arise.  Fear of what *might* happen shouldn't excuse detrimental behaviour around what *is* happening.  That's just me though.

Agreed for the most part. I just think it's important to enforce current laws on privacy and not just accept that companies are going to illegally ask for information and we just need to accept it because we're in a pandemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 10:29:26 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 10:27:10 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 13, 2020, 10:24:30 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 13, 2020, 09:24:01 AM

I fear that this pandemic may be the end of private medical information and that it is going to be perfectly acceptable for a business to demand to know your medical status when it comes to any number of things in the name of safety.

Fair, and I say let's fight those battles if/when they arise.  Fear of what *might* happen shouldn't excuse detrimental behaviour around what *is* happening.  That's just me though.

Agreed for the most part. I just think it's important to enforce current laws on privacy and not just accept that companies are going to illegally ask for information and we just need to accept it because we're in a pandemic.

Maybe it's a US thing, but what law is being violated in asking for a proof of vaccine and/or positive COVID test (since this discussion started with that from TicketBastard?  <serious question>

Here in Canada, students can suspended from school for not having appropriate vaccines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 13, 2020, 10:30:05 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 13, 2020, 09:29:17 AM

One of my best friends is a pediatrician and regularly tests kids and has positive patients.  Well this morning he got a positive results and while speaking to the mom, told her the whole family needs to quarantine for two weeks and she flipped out saying she wants to live her life.... and this is why we are here.  How long has this been going on? AND you still don't get it that you need to quarantine to stop the spread that you are carrying? I hate people sometimes.

It's the same everywhere.  People, generally speaking, are selfish.  It's human nature, and situations that cause mass strife like a pandemic or hurricane tend to exacerbate these selfish tendencies we have as humans.  In some ways, I think it's instinctual, especially in extreme circumstances like we are in now.  And make no mistake, we are entering a significantly bad period right now.  Yes, there are vaccines on the horizon but widespread distribution (never mind adoption rates that will very likely be south of 50% in the US) will be the beginning of the end of the covid-19 era, but things are going to get a hell of a lot worse before they get better and EVERYONE has a choice to make.  Be part of the problem, or be part of the solution. 

If you're walking around with your mask down below your nose and rolling your eyes at all the public health mitigation steps that are being strongly encouraged by infectious disease experts worldwide, then I have news for you:  You're not just part of the problem.  You ARE the problem.  That's not directed at anyone here, it's just my opinion.  I see people walking around in my gym no mask, they don't wipe anything down after they use it.  If that's you, then yeah, you are the problem.  It's a lack of common courtesy and respect for the people around you.  Fuck everyone else.  <--that mentality permeates American society and it's fucking nauseating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 13, 2020, 10:35:33 AM

+1000 to that

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 13, 2020, 10:36:16 AM

To be fair there were a lot of assholes not wiping down the equipment at the gym pre-covid as well and I always hated those jackwagons

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 13, 2020, 10:54:42 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 13, 2020, 10:36:16 AM

To be fair there were a lot of assholes not wiping down the equipment at the gym pre-covid as well and I always hated those jackwagons

Sure, but now they KNOW for a FACT that there is a potentially DEADLY virus lurking everywhere they touch and breathe but I really don't think many of them are doing it maliciously, but it's two things:


1. Human nature says protect myself.  Full stop.
2. "This stuff happens to other people, not me!" mentality.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: H2 on November 13, 2020, 11:11:11 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 13, 2020, 10:36:16 AM

To be fair there were a lot of assholes not wiping down the equipment at the gym pre-covid as well and I always hated those jackwagons

Having been a member of a number of gyms, it's a gym norm a lot of places to wipe down equipment before you use it, not after. Kinda backwards, but that's just how the norms have shaken out over time. (Note: this is more true of weights than cardio machines.)

With COVID, though, my gym has been supplying tons of disposable wipes and it is a rule that one must wipe down ALL of their equipment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 13, 2020, 11:28:24 AM

Several months ago, I thought it was bad when Illinois was announcing a few thousand new cases.  In the last week, the cases have been 10,000+, 12,000+ and now today they announced over 15,000 new cases.   I've been reading that lines at the testing centers are so long, people are sitting in their cars and waiting 3-4 hours to get tested.  They're advising to show up 2 hours before it even opens!

This is just insane.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on November 14, 2020, 09:04:38 AM

A co-worker, who sits about 10 feet from me albeit facing the other way, tested positive for COVID a few weeks ago and we all had to then work from home until we got tested and had a negative result.  No one else tested positive (only 20+ of us in our office, so anyone not being at work every day for two weeks would have been obvious :lol), but it was definitely a bit worrisome.  The testing wasn't bad - a swab up both nostrils for about 10 seconds that felt like an uncomfortable (very minor) tickle.  Several co-workers since have taken to wearing their masks all day even when sitting in their cubicles.  The requirement is that we have to wear them when in the office except when sitting at our desks. Feels like another "working at home for two months" phase is coming soon, which will suck as I would much rather be at the office.  I am more organized there and the process of getting up, showering and driving to work helps to wake me up and get me energized to work, as opposed to rolling out bed and starting work right then and there.  First world problems, I know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 14, 2020, 12:51:50 PM

Some some early shots of the Million Maga March...nary a mask in sight. Lots of aggresive shouting, zero social distancing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 15, 2020, 12:46:39 PM

WA just banned indoor gatherings with people not within your household, unless everyone quarantines for two weeks and tests negative. I am not following other states. Any other state(s) have this level of a restriction?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 15, 2020, 12:51:42 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 15, 2020, 12:46:39 PM

WA just banned indoor gatherings with people not within your household, unless everyone quarantines for two weeks and tests negative. I am not following other states. Any other state(s) have this level of a restriction?

CA is doing it county by county...and most of them have moved into the most restrictive purple tier, which bans all indoor dining, most personal care services and the like. They've never really done that level outside of the actual SIP order back in March.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 15, 2020, 12:54:02 PM

There was also a new wave of restrictions based on businesses and such, which seems in line with what I've seen in other areas. The private indoor gathering ban is just not something I've seen elsewhere.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 15, 2020, 03:02:06 PM

Yeah, that's a new one to me as well. Surprised CA didn't come up with it first  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on November 15, 2020, 03:37:58 PM

Oregon as of this coming Wednesday is starting a two week “freeze” where any social gathering, indoor or outdoor, cannot exceed six people from more than two households. My bet is it’ll last longer since there’s already pretty significant push back before these further restrictions, especially outside of the main urban areas. One   news article written just a few hours after the announcement was made states a public official was already saying she’ll flout the order and gather as many family and friends as she can for Thanksgiving.

So, not as restrictive as WA, no. But much more than previously.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 15, 2020, 07:00:46 PM

Illinois/Chicago has a "stay at home" recommendation.  Not an order, just advising people to stay at home unless you need to leave for essential reasons (work, food shopping, medical).  My family has been doing that for the last 8-9 months, so it's nothing new for us.  Though other trips to stores (hardware/pet store) are also essential to us.  I've done a lot of smaller projects around the house this year.

We bought my daughter some pet fish, our first family pet.  She's had an awful time over the last few months with remote learning for kindergarten and not being able to play with friends.  It's been a very solitary life for her, and we can't keep buying her toys every month.  So we're giving fish a try. 

Indoor dining is supposed to be closed.  Some restaurants are abiding by the order, others are directly flouting it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 15, 2020, 07:04:09 PM

Quote from: Grappler on November 15, 2020, 07:00:46 PM

Illinois/Chicago has a "stay at home" recommendation.  Not an order, just advising people to stay at home unless you need to leave for essential reasons (work, food shopping, medical).  My family has been doing that for the last 8-9 months, so it's nothing new for us.  Though other trips to stores (hardware/pet store) are also essential to us.  I've done a lot of smaller projects around the house this year.

We bought my daughter some pet fish, our first family pet.  She's had an awful time over the last few months with remote learning for kindergarten and not being able to play with friends.  It's been a very solitary life for her, and we can't keep buying her toys every month.  So we're giving fish a try. 

Indoor dining is supposed to be closed.  Some restaurants are abiding by the order, others are directly flouting it.

Rescheduled a date today for next Sunday due to a combination of no indoor dining + insane wind today. Damn you, covid!! It seems like places are gearing up for the winter with tents and heaters. I feel so bad for restaurants and clubs who have to figure out how to continue to stay alive, now in winter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 15, 2020, 07:06:25 PM

Quote from: Grappler on November 15, 2020, 07:00:46 PM

We bought my daughter some pet fish, our first family pet.  She's had an awful time over the last few months with remote learning for kindergarten and not being able to play with friends.  It's been a very solitary life for her, and we can't keep buying her toys every month.  So we're giving fish a try. 

Our daughter wanted a cat; and when we nixed that, and bunny; and when we nixed that, a fish. We actually liked that idea, and got her a nice tank and let her pick out the decorations. She has really enjoyed it, and been very responsible in feeding it and helping me keep it clean.

With our kids we're lucky that one daughter is old enough to be able to connect with friends through some online apps, and the other is young enough to not understand what is going on. I think for kids in the Kindergarten range it would be the worst.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 15, 2020, 07:21:42 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 15, 2020, 07:06:25 PM

Quote from: Grappler on November 15, 2020, 07:00:46 PM

We bought my daughter some pet fish, our first family pet.  She's had an awful time over the last few months with remote learning for kindergarten and not being able to play with friends.  It's been a very solitary life for her, and we can't keep buying her toys every month.  So we're giving fish a try. 

Our daughter wanted a cat; and when we nixed that, and bunny; and when we nixed that, a fish. We actually liked that idea, and got her a nice tank and let her pick out the decorations. She has really enjoyed it, and been very responsible in feeding it and helping me keep it clean.

With our kids we're lucky that one daughter is old enough to be able to connect with friends through some online apps, and the other is young enough to not understand what is going on. I think for kids in the Kindergarten range it would be the worst.

We did the same - my allergies prevent us from having a dog or cat.  I'm not fond of gerbils, hamsters or anything else that can get loose.  I had a fish tank when I was a kid, but haven't since.  We picked out a small, 3.5 gallon starter kit and I let her pick the decorations with a little guidance so the tank wouldn't be too cluttered.  Today we picked out 3 guppies.  The tank sits on her dresser and she'll be in charge of feeding the fish every day.  She was so excited, and it was nice to make her happy.

It's been a hard year for her.  She wants to play with her preschool friends, she wants to be in school for kindergarten and meeting new friends.  She wants to see her teachers.  We've kept the kids as close to home as possible, though she did summer camp with 5-7 other kids.  We see my parents and inlaws frequently, so she gets to see her grandparents and spend time with them.  But anything fun has been nixed - no malls, no museums, no zoos, no play-places (aside from outdoor parks). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 15, 2020, 08:13:10 PM

We bought our kids more stuff this year because we figured we were saving a lot of money on things we couldn't do and places we couldn't go to. We also let them play with a couple neighbors who we entrusted as part of our extended Covid family over the summer. That was the biggest life saver for us, having that interaction and getting out of the house, even if to just play in the cul-de-sac.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM

I feel for you guys with younger kids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 16, 2020, 07:11:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM

I feel for you guys with younger kids.

yeah... anyone in the elementary or secondary school system.  I couldn't imagine the shit show.  Very thankful to have adult aged children that are both in post-secondary programs that are able to adapt to 100% online.  Some challenges in that adaptation, but by-and-large, it seems to be working.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 16, 2020, 07:20:03 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 16, 2020, 07:11:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM

I feel for you guys with younger kids.

yeah... anyone in the elementary or secondary school system.  I couldn't imagine the shit show.  Very thankful to have adult aged children that are both in post-secondary programs that are able to adapt to 100% online.  Some challenges in that adaptation, but by-and-large, it seems to be working.

The other thing is I can't imagine juggling work schedules for this. It was enough of a nightmare when my kids were little and going to school.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 07:26:20 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 16, 2020, 07:20:03 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 16, 2020, 07:11:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM

I feel for you guys with younger kids.

yeah... anyone in the elementary or secondary school system.  I couldn't imagine the shit show.  Very thankful to have adult aged children that are both in post-secondary programs that are able to adapt to 100% online.  Some challenges in that adaptation, but by-and-large, it seems to be working.

The other thing is I can't imagine juggling work schedules for this. It was enough of a nightmare when my kids were little and going to school.

15 miles uphill in the snow, right?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on November 16, 2020, 07:43:19 AM

FL went from 4.6K to 10.1K new cases in one day. I strongly suspect Halloween parties and gatherings are the culprit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 16, 2020, 08:28:44 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 16, 2020, 07:11:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM

I feel for you guys with younger kids.

yeah... anyone in the elementary or secondary school system.  I couldn't imagine the shit show.  Very thankful to have adult aged children that are both in post-secondary programs that are able to adapt to 100% online.  Some challenges in that adaptation, but by-and-large, it seems to be working.

It's fascinating the dichotomy, though.   My daughter - 19 and in her second year of college - is friggin' KILLING it.  Literally 4.0's.    It's basically given her the structure to make the right balance.   She has her "college fun" at night, but during the day - when I would have been day-drinking and playing marathon Set-Back games - she's studying.     My step-son - 12 and in 7th grade - hasn't learned a single thing since February.   My wife is holding out hope but I'm already gearing up for the parent/teacher conference where they tell us "he should repeat his grade".   I know this sounds like I'm just letting it happen; that couldn't be further from the truth, I'm just not going into it here.   But "shit show" doesn't even begin to cover how I'd describe it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 16, 2020, 09:02:14 AM

The Moderna vaccine is apparantly 94% effective and doesn't require the frozen storage.  Some positive news today.

In the negative news, NJ's cases (like most of the US) are skyrocketing.  Last week they had bars and anything indoor shutdown at 10pm.  Today the governor announced no more the 25% capacity at any indoor event (religious gatherings) and no more than 10 people at indoor gatherings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 16, 2020, 09:13:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 16, 2020, 07:11:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM

I feel for you guys with younger kids.

yeah... anyone in the elementary or secondary school system.  I couldn't imagine the shit show.  Very thankful to have adult aged children that are both in post-secondary programs that are able to adapt to 100% online.  Some challenges in that adaptation, but by-and-large, it seems to be working.

I'm just sad for my boys. They don't get to see their buddies.....their missing the 'experience' of being in school. It's such a bummer. As for academic, it's just a nightmare. I have two in middle school and one in 5th grade and while they are doing incredible at keeping up with the work given....the work itself is a fraction of what they 'should' be learning. The curriculum has been trimmed to such a basic minimum 'need to know' for the grade level that it's painfully clear they're not learning anymore....that it's just an effort to place them all in a 'knowledge holding pattern' of sorts. I know this is going on nation wide and all parents and students are dealing with it but it's frightening to think about the effect it's going to have moving forward.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2020, 09:23:29 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 16, 2020, 09:02:14 AM

The Moderna vaccine is apparantly 94% effective and doesn't require the frozen storage.  Some positive news today.

In the negative news, NJ's cases (like most of the US) are skyrocketing.  Last week they had bars and anything indoor shutdown at 10pm.  Today the governor announced no more the 25% capacity at any indoor event (religious gatherings) and no more than 10 people at indoor gatherings.

I'm convinced, it's because Thanksgiving is coming up and they don't want people to be Gathering, because they know they can't control us. But, they can scare us.... :lol

But yeah, Nothing surprising here. Of course the case numbers were going to go up. People are spending more time indoors, as it's colder, and standing in the long lines. People catching common colds, and getting more sick during the fall/winter times, is common. Putting that into logic though, Those that didn't bother getting tested before, and now feel more symptoms because of the cold, are finding out, they have covid-19. My question now is, how long does the antibodies last where it could be retriggered by catching the common cold? I ask this because if those people had Covid antibodies, it means they had it before, but never got tested due to not showing symptoms that are of any concern, until those symptoms were of concern.

That is one concern I really have with this. How many people never got tested because they don't see any concern for a cough or a slight itch in the throat, but since they did get tested now, are showing up positive now? Is this the reason numbers are higher?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 16, 2020, 09:40:29 AM

The fact that the USA went from 10 million to 11 million cases in 6 days frightens the shit out of me. Wonder how long before we get a million in one day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 09:41:01 AM

I went to the mall this weekend in search of a new jacket at the same store I bought one some years ago, was gonna be a real quick 10 minutes in and out because I do not fuck around. When I got there, you'd think there wasn't a pandemic, other than people wearing masks. Business as usual. Long lines, just socially distanced... clusters of people... people everywhere. Skeeved me out to the point where I got out of dodge real quick, came home, and took a hot shower. Bleh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 16, 2020, 09:44:03 AM

Was chatting with my orthopedic surgeon friend from college who lives in the middle of no where in NY state.  He said his small hospital's ICU is already full which means by state rules they have to shutdown a lot of things, including his own surgeries. 

I think the hospitals in NJ are mostly OK, but it is ticking up.  It's not quite the same as last April, but it's on trajectory to start getting really bad if people continue to gather, which we know is going to happen next week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 16, 2020, 09:56:34 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 09:41:01 AM

I went to the mall this weekend in search of a new jacket at the same store I bought one some years ago, was gonna be a real quick 10 minutes in and out because I do not fuck around. When I got there, you'd think there wasn't a pandemic, other than people wearing masks. Business as usual. Long lines, just socially distanced... clusters of people... people everywhere. Skeeved me out to the point where I got out of dodge real quick, came home, and took a hot shower. Bleh.

You can get Members Only jackets from Macy's Online, or Amazon.

:)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 16, 2020, 10:07:16 AM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 10:07:58 AM

 :lol

I came home and just ordered some soap that smells like a campfire instead. And realized I had a brand new coat to break out for the winter anyway. Then I smoked a giant cigar and drank some Founders KBS. Still get skeeved out thinking about the mall people though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2020, 10:14:58 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 10:07:58 AM

:lol

I came home and just ordered some soap that smells like a campfire instead. And realized I had a brand new coat to break out for the winter anyway. Then I smoked a giant cigar and drank some Founders KBS. Still get skeeved out thinking about the mall people though.

You ordered Dr. Squatch Soap, didn't you?  :biggrin:

I actually am thinking about trying that....

Also, have you thought about trying John Petrucci's Beard product... :yarr

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 10:17:18 AM

I've thought about it but $40 for a bottle of beard oil is fucking ludicrous. Hard pass. Maybe the balm because it's more reasonably priced, though. Not Dr. Squatch although you're close; Outlaw Soaps. Hoping it's as good as I hear. $20 better be worth it, but I also love scented things and trying new bath products, so why not. I also hear it helps fight the rona. I heard that from myself

EDIT: nevermind I was looking at the wrong package, that was a combo deal; the products are reasonably priced! - only slightly higher than what I usually pay - but I'm fully stocked at the moment, so maaaybe in the future

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 16, 2020, 10:45:26 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2020, 10:14:58 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 10:07:58 AM

:lol

I came home and just ordered some soap that smells like a campfire instead. And realized I had a brand new coat to break out for the winter anyway. Then I smoked a giant cigar and drank some Founders KBS. Still get skeeved out thinking about the mall people though.

You ordered Dr. Squatch Soap, didn't you?  :biggrin:

I actually am thinking about trying that....

I am not falling for that youtube ad I constantly get  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2020, 12:17:21 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 16, 2020, 10:45:26 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2020, 10:14:58 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 10:07:58 AM

:lol

I came home and just ordered some soap that smells like a campfire instead. And realized I had a brand new coat to break out for the winter anyway. Then I smoked a giant cigar and drank some Founders KBS. Still get skeeved out thinking about the mall people though.

You ordered Dr. Squatch Soap, didn't you?  :biggrin:

I actually am thinking about trying that....

I am not falling for that youtube ad I constantly get  :lol

That's why I don't want to buy it.  :lol

Their ads are hilarious though. I give them a  :tup for that.

At least, it's not Achievement Hunter and Me Undies.  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 01:17:21 PM

"MeUndies, MeUndies, doo doo doo, cradle your balls in the winter of America's discontent, MeUndies~" - Bill Burr, every podcast

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2020, 01:23:38 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 16, 2020, 01:17:21 PM

"MeUndies, MeUndies, doo doo doo, cradle your balls in the winter of America's discontent, MeUndies~" - Bill Burr, every podcast

Lightspeed Brand Briefs (https://youtu.be/hlCrcMeVZHs)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on November 16, 2020, 07:51:14 PM

Illinois has just exploded with cases. My county, which was barely touched for the longest time is a nightmare. 7 day rolling positivity rate of 17%. That school district I mentioned earlier that is north of me and in my county, now has 118 staff and 458 students in quarantine. Just got a call from my son's district stating that all in school learning is off. Going all virtual now.

My manager called an all-hands this afternoon. Her and my director sat down and decided they are going against the company suggestion of 50% in office attendance as the main office is in Chicago which just started a month long stay-at-home suggestion. Told everyone to stay home and she is going to stop looking at attendance reports for in building people. She's not even going in.

I fear Turkey Day is only going to make things even worse than they already are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on November 16, 2020, 09:26:41 PM

Yeah IL is really bad. Like 10 times worse than when we actually had a stay at home order. Not sure why the hell nothing is being done this time other than closing indoor dining, which never should've been open in the first place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 17, 2020, 05:40:48 AM

I didn't realize you're from Illinois as well, Implode.

I've been commuting into downtown Chicago once a week since July.  My boss just gave me the OK to stay home until after Thanksgiving.  The Metra trains have been pretty empty, so I'm not bothered by going downtown, but it's a bit weird to leave the house knowing that so many people have been getting sick.  It would be different if i were spending 70-90 minutes in a crowded train car. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 06:03:13 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 16, 2020, 09:26:41 PM

Yeah IL is really bad. Like 10 times worse than when we actually had a stay at home order. Not sure why the hell nothing is being done this time other than closing indoor dining, which never should've been open in the first place.

I don't get it either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 17, 2020, 06:10:46 AM

One thing I've noticed around here is that many restaurants are setting up tents outside...with sidings, being heated by propane heaters.

Can I ask a dumb question? How is this any safer than actually eating inside?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 06:23:51 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on November 16, 2020, 07:51:14 PM

I fear Turkey Day is only going to make things even worse than they already are.

USA has a huge disadvantage of having another holiday so close to Christmas. Europe shut down a few weeks ago in general and we mostly stand a chance of a "okay I guess seeing your family is okay now*, but don't have more than 10 people, bla bla" Christmas. If you guys don't curb it for Thanksgiving...

*unless you live outside of your home country, but who cares about us :yeahright we can only travel if we can save 10 days x 2 for quarantines in and out, most likely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 17, 2020, 06:59:47 AM

As much as I want to celebrate Thanksgiving with my parents an siblings, part of me wishes they'd just make us all stay home again. Announce it in a way that makes it clear that we're sacrificing Thanksgiving so we can save Christmas. That said, I'll be celebrating Thanksgiving with a smaller than normal crew as long as we're able to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 07:04:42 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 17, 2020, 06:10:46 AM

One thing I've noticed around here is that many restaurants are setting up tents outside...with sidings, being heated by propane heaters.

Can I ask a dumb question? How is this any safer than actually eating inside?

Nope, and in CA at least it shouldn't be done, though a huge swath of places are ignoring it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2020, 07:29:17 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 17, 2020, 06:10:46 AM

One thing I've noticed around here is that many restaurants are setting up tents outside...with sidings, being heated by propane heaters.

Can I ask a dumb question? How is this any safer than actually eating inside?

It's not. But if a restaurant is only allowed to have 25%-50% capacity, and you could get closer to your pre-Covid numbers by expanding your footprint to an outside tent, I can see why they'd do that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

Why shouldn't heat lamps and tents be set up? How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business. At the very least it might keep away a good number of people who simply don't want to eat outside even in a tent with heat lamps.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 07:44:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business.

They should be closed for business, and (this is the key part) paid to remain closed. This way they get to shop for tents and heat lamps and cleaning supplies and pay for three mask changes per day per employee and deal with increased stress, and on top of it all, have people on TV saying "going to restaurants isn't safe, you really should avoid going there". And if at the end of it all they have to close, they will just be another business that didn't survive the difficult times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 17, 2020, 07:50:50 AM

Also with the tents....when dining with friends, my wife and I could move our chairs so that we were 4-5 feet away from the other couple, instead of less than three.  When it was just the two of us, we'd dine indoors since every other table or booth was made unavailable.  We tried to support while being safe.  Smaller places we have simply shied away from.  The only inside dining with friends for the next 4-6 months will be from our garage with carry out or deliveries.  That will continue to help some, but not getting that extra cash from all beverages really bites into whatever profit margin they may have had.

The real sh*t storm for restaurants will be next year.  Those that haven't already shut down will have to, and those that my rise back up will be doing so under different management,  perhaps after cleverly navigating the bankruptcy laws.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 07:44:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business.

They should be closed for business, and (this is the key part) paid to remain closed. This way they get to shop for tents and heat lamps and cleaning supplies and pay for three mask changes per day per employee and deal with increased stress, and on top of it all, have people on TV saying "going to restaurants isn't safe, you really should avoid going there". And if at the end of it all they have to close, they will just be another business that didn't survive the difficult times.

This is a lovely idea to just toss out there for conversation, but do you have any idea how much money you are asking for right there? To pay restaurants, their employees, their taxes, their overhead, to stay closed indefinitely? You're literally talking about floating an entire industry with magic money in a country that's deeper in debt than it has ever been before. Where do you expect all this money to come from, and do you not think there will be any economic repercussions in the future from doing something like that? And then saying, "they'll just be another business that didn't survive" because you expect everybody to hide in a bunker - how callous is that? Restaurants already, pre-covid, operate on INCREDIBLY thin margins, walking the razor's edge. This is nuts to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 17, 2020, 07:53:01 AM

Our government is giving the hospitality sector a stimulus. Some restaurants, even fancy ones, converted to take away for the time being. But in the end for sure many restaurants, bars etc. will not survive and the damage to the branche will last for years to come.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 07:58:20 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 17, 2020, 06:10:46 AM

One thing I've noticed around here is that many restaurants are setting up tents outside...with sidings, being heated by propane heaters.

Can I ask a dumb question? How is this any safer than actually eating inside?

I think it's because the air filter systems on restaurants are likely not very good for circulating and filtering the air so if someone's got the corona, its way more likely to spread indoors than outdoors.  So I guess even if you surround yourself in a tent, there's probably still better airflow than indoors.  I may be wrong, I can see some people creating these tents that have no airflow.  The one tent I ate in when I was on vacation in Portland Maine, seemed not much different than just being indoors but maybe there was a good design on the air circulation.  I can't find it now, but I saw an article about how one gym instructor had covid but no one in the gym got sick because someone designed the air circulation so that it was more "open air" and lead to better air flow.

Quote from: lordxizor on November 17, 2020, 06:59:47 AM

As much as I want to celebrate Thanksgiving with my parents an siblings, part of me wishes they'd just make us all stay home again. Announce it in a way that makes it clear that we're sacrificing Thanksgiving so we can save Christmas. That said, I'll be celebrating Thanksgiving with a smaller than normal crew as long as we're able to.

I think even if we all stayed in for Thanksgiving, it may be too late to save Christmas given how the numbers lag by so much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 17, 2020, 07:58:47 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 07:44:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business.

They should be closed for business, and (this is the key part) paid to remain closed. This way they get to shop for tents and heat lamps and cleaning supplies and pay for three mask changes per day per employee and deal with increased stress, and on top of it all, have people on TV saying "going to restaurants isn't safe, you really should avoid going there". And if at the end of it all they have to close, they will just be another business that didn't survive the difficult times.

This is a lovely idea to just toss out there for conversation, but do you have any idea how much money you are asking for right there? To pay restaurants, their employees, their taxes, their overhead, to stay closed indefinitely? You're literally talking about floating an entire industry with magic money in a country that's deeper in debt than it has ever been before. Where do you expect all this money to come from, and do you not think there will be any economic repercussions in the future from doing something like that? And then saying, "they'll just be another business that didn't survive" because you expect everybody to hide in a bunker - how callous is that? Restaurants already, pre-covid, operate on INCREDIBLY thin margins, walking the razor's edge. This is nuts to me.

This is basically the short blanket scenario. You have a blanket that's too short, you cover your feet but you get cold in your chest. Then you pull up the blanket to cover your head, but then your feet get cold.

Mora didn't suggest a nuts scenario, she just laid out the perfect one in an ideal world. Pay everyone to stay home and stay closed and support them. Of course this clashes with the reality of the economics and the lack of an infinite fund of money to take from. This is where all the politics come into play and basically every government is stuck in that game of keeping the plates rotating on top of sticks and chasing after them, and often making them fall to the ground anyway in the very intent to keep them spinning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 17, 2020, 08:38:09 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 17, 2020, 07:58:47 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 07:44:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business.

They should be closed for business, and (this is the key part) paid to remain closed. This way they get to shop for tents and heat lamps and cleaning supplies and pay for three mask changes per day per employee and deal with increased stress, and on top of it all, have people on TV saying "going to restaurants isn't safe, you really should avoid going there". And if at the end of it all they have to close, they will just be another business that didn't survive the difficult times.

This is a lovely idea to just toss out there for conversation, but do you have any idea how much money you are asking for right there? To pay restaurants, their employees, their taxes, their overhead, to stay closed indefinitely? You're literally talking about floating an entire industry with magic money in a country that's deeper in debt than it has ever been before. Where do you expect all this money to come from, and do you not think there will be any economic repercussions in the future from doing something like that? And then saying, "they'll just be another business that didn't survive" because you expect everybody to hide in a bunker - how callous is that? Restaurants already, pre-covid, operate on INCREDIBLY thin margins, walking the razor's edge. This is nuts to me.

This is basically the short blanket scenario. You have a blanket that's too short, you cover your feet but you get cold in your chest. Then you pull up the blanket to cover your head, but then your feet get cold.

Mora didn't suggest a nuts scenario, she just laid out the perfect one in an ideal world. Pay everyone to stay home and stay closed and support them. Of course this clashes with the reality of the economics and the lack of an infinite fund of money to take from. This is where all the politics come into play and basically every government is stuck in that game of keeping the plates rotating on top of sticks and chasing after them, and often making them fall to the ground anyway in the very intent to keep them spinning.

Yeah it's a pipedream. And one that will never happen in REALITY.

The Reality is we are making ourselves further into debt. People are expecting or wanting the government to give them money. But where exactly is this going to come from, later on down the line they could collect their debt and what will they take?

People realize this and are wanting to rather work than fear the Covid. It's actually odd when you factor in those "essential" workers. It explains the rise in Hiring as wellz because employees either quit or can't work anymore because they're sick and the company has no choice but to let them go, because the labor demand is high.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 08:47:49 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

And then saying, "they'll just be another business that didn't survive" because you expect everybody to hide in a bunker - how callous is that?

That's not what I'm saying, that's what the economists will be saying when all of this is over. Whomp whomp, the times were so hard that they had to close, wish this could have been avoided.

Clearly restaurants are important enough to us that we're ready to risk infection to keep our favorite ones in business (I'm not kidding - that's the only reason why I went out anywhere, before things were closed, even though I didn't particularly want to), so why can't we brainstorm another way to keep them open? What's the alternative? When all this is over, people won't have any money to start new restaurants and gyms unless you give them some sort of a stimulus anyway. Again, the only alternative is keeping them "open" but encouraging people not to go there and expecting them not to go there but the restaurants foot the bill of remaining open with no money coming in.

The only reason why we're even talking about restaurants is because that's what 90% of people do, at least sometimes, they go out to eat. No one asked venues which hosts events if they wanna close, no one asked independent theatres, movie theatres, no one asked bands if they wanna stop touring, no one asked conventions, festivals. If we can't agree that something 90% of people do deserves to be protected in some way, what hope is there for other things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 17, 2020, 08:48:45 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 07:58:20 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 17, 2020, 06:59:47 AM

As much as I want to celebrate Thanksgiving with my parents an siblings, part of me wishes they'd just make us all stay home again. Announce it in a way that makes it clear that we're sacrificing Thanksgiving so we can save Christmas. That said, I'll be celebrating Thanksgiving with a smaller than normal crew as long as we're able to.

I think even if we all stayed in for Thanksgiving, it may be too late to save Christmas given how the numbers lag by so much.

If they shut things down today, numbers should be lower within a month if people actually stay home. The lag is only a couple weeks. But honestly, I think a stay at home order would maybe prevent 20% at best from cancelling their Thanksgiving plans. Given that the orders are not really enforced in any real way, most are just going to do what they want anyway. And I don't blame them really. Getting together with loved ones at holidays is one of the last things that should be taken away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

But I guess that's part of American culture; we like to put the onus on the individual to save money, keep their business afloat, and stay alive rather than the government, even during a global pandemic. I would like to think that protecting its citizens from an event like this as best as it can is one of the purposes of government in the first place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 17, 2020, 09:08:01 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 08:47:49 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

And then saying, "they'll just be another business that didn't survive" because you expect everybody to hide in a bunker - how callous is that?

That's not what I'm saying, that's what the economists will be saying when all of this is over. Whomp whomp, the times were so hard that they had to close, wish this could have been avoided.

Clearly restaurants are important enough to us that we're ready to risk infection to keep our favorite ones in business (I'm not kidding - that's the only reason why I went out anywhere, before things were closed, even though I didn't particularly want to), so why can't we brainstorm another way to keep them open? What's the alternative? When all this is over, people won't have any money to start new restaurants and gyms unless you give them some sort of a stimulus anyway. Again, the only alternative is keeping them "open" but encouraging people not to go there and expecting them not to go there but the restaurants foot the bill of remaining open with no money coming in.

The only reason why we're even talking about restaurants is because that's what 90% of people do, at least sometimes, they go out to eat. No one asked venues which hosts events if they wanna close, no one asked independent theatres, movie theatres, no one asked bands if they wanna stop touring, no one asked conventions, festivals. If we can't agree that something 90% of people do deserves to be protected in some way, what hope is there for other things.

I'm not taking sides here, but for discussion purposes:  the restaurant industry in the U.S. is about a $1 TRILLION industry, and employs about 10% of our work force. When you factor in support industries (distribution, etc.) it's about 20% of our work force.  Over 95% of those are small and/or family owned businesses with less than 50 employees.   (Cites: https://www.forbes.com/sites/elvaramirez/2020/03/19/the-restaurant-industry-needs-a-coronavirus-bailout-will-they-get-it/?sh=75752ae76801 and https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/03/20/cincinnati-restaurants-ask-feds-for-coronavirus.html, though they might be behind a paywall).   

Having said that, it seems like restaurants, bars and gyms are a key component in the transmission of the virus. (Cite: https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/operations/new-cdc-report-cites-dining-out-significant-covid-risk and https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/10/coronavirus-restaurants-gyms-hotels-risk/)

SOMETHING has to be done. Whether it's paying them or being more creative - I personally wouldn't pay restaurants to close down, but I WOULD subsidize take out and delivery to allow them to do what they do without having people IN the facility - it's not something we can ignore and hope takes care of itself (and I'm not suggesting that's what anyone is saying).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 09:10:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 17, 2020, 09:08:01 AM

it's not something we can ignore and hope takes care of itself (and I'm not suggesting that's what anyone is saying).

Yeah, that's definitely not what the Walrus is saying. The way I understand it, he's saying, allow the restaurants to do whatever they can to keep the money coming in. I'm just saying, why do they have to be alone in that? Why is the only way to keep the business open to have us in there, sitting inside (a tent?), ordering a meal and eating it? For something we all appreciate, something we all wanna keep open?

I was cranky earlier in the thread about how I didn't wanna do anything and how nothing that's actually open is worth the risk of getting out of the house for me. But that doesn't mean "oh well, what I like is closed, restaurants can die as far as I'm concerned if they don't get the magic stimulus which I dreamed up for them, since I don't actually care". I really do care.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 09:13:04 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

It seems we've drawn that line at ICU capacity.  I get the feeling, when ICUs are full or overwhelmed, that is when the government will step in and shut things down and hopefully provide some relief to those who need it.  I agree, it's a complicated issue and I don't have the answers of how and when we should shut things down to save human lives over the economy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 17, 2020, 09:36:19 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 09:10:58 AM

I was cranky earlier in the thread about how I didn't wanna do anything and how nothing that's actually open is worth the risk of getting out of the house for me. But that doesn't mean "oh well, what I like is closed, restaurants can die as far as I'm concerned if they don't get the magic stimulus which I dreamed up for them, since I don't actually care". I really do care.

FWIW, I never thought otherwise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:40:48 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 09:10:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 17, 2020, 09:08:01 AM

it's not something we can ignore and hope takes care of itself (and I'm not suggesting that's what anyone is saying).

Yeah, that's definitely not what the Walrus is saying. The way I understand it, he's saying, allow the restaurants to do whatever they can to keep the money coming in. I'm just saying, why do they have to be alone in that? Why is the only way to keep the business open to have us in there, sitting inside (a tent?), ordering a meal and eating it? For something we all appreciate, something we all wanna keep open?

I was cranky earlier in the thread about how I didn't wanna do anything and how nothing that's actually open is worth the risk of getting out of the house for me. But that doesn't mean "oh well, what I like is closed, restaurants can die as far as I'm concerned if they don't get the magic stimulus which I dreamed up for them, since I don't actually care". I really do care.

Precisely. And if I came off as snippy in my post towards you, Mora, I apologize, that certainly wasn't the tone I was going for. I'm just very concerned what this winter is going to do to the economy, the restaurant industry, how much faster infection is going to spread. I do think they have to do whatever they can to stay open but I don't think shutting everything down and just printing a metric fuckton of money is the solution - just my opinion, in my own words ;)

I just don't think there's a good solution one way or another, honestly, at this point. Whatever the solution is, someone or some people are going to be negatively impacted. I do not envy health and government officials who have to make the decisions on how to handle this because they will be vilified no matter what they do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

But I guess that's part of American culture; we like to put the onus on the individual to save money, keep their business afloat, and stay alive rather than the government, even during a global pandemic. I would like to think that protecting its citizens from an event like this as best as it can is one of the purposes of government in the first place.

Human lives should be more important than that. But, and here's where I will argue for anyone who chooses to go out and patronize these restaurants, why can't people be allowed to decide what is in their best interest? You staying home doesn't actually make you any better than someone who wants to go out and get a meal, it really doesn't, because plenty still go out and eat and don't get infected. My point about not paying every restaurant to stay closed is not because I value restaurants over human lives, but because economically speaking the premise fundamentally requires an absolutely staggering amount of money from a government that is already up to its ears in debt and shows no signs of slowing down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 17, 2020, 09:43:14 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 07:44:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business.

They should be closed for business, and (this is the key part) paid to remain closed. This way they get to shop for tents and heat lamps and cleaning supplies and pay for three mask changes per day per employee and deal with increased stress, and on top of it all, have people on TV saying "going to restaurants isn't safe, you really should avoid going there". And if at the end of it all they have to close, they will just be another business that didn't survive the difficult times.

This is a lovely idea to just toss out there for conversation, but do you have any idea how much money you are asking for right there? To pay restaurants, their employees, their taxes, their overhead, to stay closed indefinitely? You're literally talking about floating an entire industry with magic money in a country that's deeper in debt than it has ever been before. Where do you expect all this money to come from, and do you not think there will be any economic repercussions in the future from doing something like that? And then saying, "they'll just be another business that didn't survive" because you expect everybody to hide in a bunker - how callous is that? Restaurants already, pre-covid, operate on INCREDIBLY thin margins, walking the razor's edge. This is nuts to me.

It wouldn't be the first time the gov't bailed out an industry.  Let me count the ways ... Finance, Auto (10 years ago); Farming (routinely).  Many others.  I don't agree with Milena's idea, but SOMETHING has to be done to balance transmission reduction and economic livelihood

Quote from: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 09:13:04 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

It seems we've drawn that line at ICU capacity.  I get the feeling, when ICUs are full or overwhelmed, that is when the government will step in and shut things down and hopefully provide some relief to those who need it.  I agree, it's a complicated issue and I don't have the answers of how and when we should shut things down to save human lives over the economy.

And sadly, waiting to *react* means you're already 2-4 weeks too late.  Did we not learn that back in March/April?

le sigh

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:45:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 17, 2020, 09:43:14 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 07:44:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business.

They should be closed for business, and (this is the key part) paid to remain closed. This way they get to shop for tents and heat lamps and cleaning supplies and pay for three mask changes per day per employee and deal with increased stress, and on top of it all, have people on TV saying "going to restaurants isn't safe, you really should avoid going there". And if at the end of it all they have to close, they will just be another business that didn't survive the difficult times.

This is a lovely idea to just toss out there for conversation, but do you have any idea how much money you are asking for right there? To pay restaurants, their employees, their taxes, their overhead, to stay closed indefinitely? You're literally talking about floating an entire industry with magic money in a country that's deeper in debt than it has ever been before. Where do you expect all this money to come from, and do you not think there will be any economic repercussions in the future from doing something like that? And then saying, "they'll just be another business that didn't survive" because you expect everybody to hide in a bunker - how callous is that? Restaurants already, pre-covid, operate on INCREDIBLY thin margins, walking the razor's edge. This is nuts to me.

It wouldn't be the first time the gov't bailed out an industry.  Let me count the ways ... Finance, Auto (10 years ago); Farming (routinely).  Many others.  I don't agree with Milena's idea, but SOMETHING has to be done to balance transmission reduction and economic livelihood

SOMETHING, but I just don't agree that shutting down an entire industry is the way to do it. It asks way too much money from the government, and it also opens the floodgates to shutting down any number of other industries, and that cost is going to snowball out of control very fast. Just because the government has done it in the past does not mean it should be the go-to solution, especially now when the restaurant industry is not the only industry being severely negatively impacted. ESPECIALLY when said industry was already a risky business to jump into before the pandemic. Just my two cents. And let's not get started on the farming... :)

My very brief thoughts are that the pandemic (and I've believed this for most of the year) has made a stronger argument for universal basic income, which I think is a more sound long term solution, but not without its own problems.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on November 17, 2020, 09:55:57 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

My point about not paying every restaurant to stay closed is not because I value restaurants over human lives, but because economically speaking the premise fundamentally requires an absolutely staggering amount of money from a government that is already up to its ears in debt and shows no signs of slowing down.

I'll address this first. I didn't intend to imply that you personally have made that value judgement. Yes, we are up to our ears in debt, and as others have said better than I did in the past few posts, it's not as simple as paying restaurants to be closed for economic reasons. I guess my main point is similar to what Staddler said in that something has to be done. I feel like we're smarter than this: where we're doing nothing.

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

But, and here's where I will argue for anyone who chooses to go out and patronize these restaurants, why can't people be allowed to decide what is in their best interest? You staying home doesn't actually make you any better than someone who wants to go out and get a meal, it really doesn't, because plenty still go out and eat and don't get infected.

In this scenario, we can't just allow people to make the choice for themselves any more than we can't allow people to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater or allow people to make the choice for an opt-in fire department service. The act of going out to eat doesn't just affect that person. If that person is infected, they can easily spread it. That alone should make it obvious enough that we can't just allow people to choose to go to restaurants. But less direct than that, the fact that people want to continue to go out gives more incentive for restaurants to stay open. Many employees would rather not be there, but are forced to keep up with the little business they have. Cultural because people see other people going out, many others will think it's okay, and then over time we'll arrive where we are now: where daily cases are constantly hitting new highs, but no one seems to care at all. People just want to stick their head in the sand and pretend everything is okay and nothing bad will happen to them.

Plenty of people go out and don't get infected, yes. But plenty of people do. And those people will go out and infect others. Hell, in Florida I personally know people that know they are currently infected with covid-19 and still fight to be able to go out to eat. People absolutely cannot be trusted to act responsibly. It's sad, but it's true. Clearly we can't trust the American population any more than we can trust a class of 1st graders.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:58:33 AM

Plenty of people also smoke and get cancer, some don't. Plenty of people go out in winter and get the flu, some don't. Human nature is not to be bunkered up for 10 months. I feel like we have to factor this in. We can't all throw our hands up in the air and act like humanity is this callous, hopeless species because a virus is doing its thing and we're falling victim to it. We fucked up handling it early on and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the bottle. The juice is loose, if you will. You have to let people go on living their lives and hopefully the vaccines will be here sooner rather than later. That's the only hope at this point of getting past this. Believe me, I would like nothing more than for everybody to just sit inside for 6 weeks and let it all go away. But that is so unrealistic it's laughable. Remember I'm not arguing for gatherings of people, just people sitting in a tent to get a meal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 17, 2020, 09:59:01 AM

I mean, the hospitality branche is, what, a couple % of the total GDP in most western countries? I agree it is not feasible to just pay every restaurant the amount they usually make. But there is a lot of middle ground to cover between fully open and no stimulus and completely closed and payment in full. And yes, I know other branches are also need, so it isn't simple. But I feel with a good balance in finance you can probably save a lot of the healthy joints that have/had reserves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 17, 2020, 10:12:56 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:58:33 AM

Plenty of people also smoke and get cancer, some don't. Plenty of people go out in winter and get the flu, some don't. Human nature is not to be bunkered up for 10 months. I feel like we have to factor this in. We can't all throw our hands up in the air and act like humanity is this worthless, hopeless species because a virus is doing its thing. We fucked up handling it early on and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the bottle. The juice is loose, if you will. You have to let people go on living their lives and hopefully the vaccines will be here sooner rather than later. That's the only hope at this point of getting past this.

Hospitals have the resources to treat the steady influx of cancer patients.

For corona, they do not. While tragic, the current deathrate isn't it's major problem. If hospitals reach a point where there is no place anymore, a large amount of would-be hospitalization cases will potentially have a deadly outcome. Because, well, they cannot get treatment. And given the amount of hospitalizations vs deaths, that number has the chance to far exceed current death numbers. It unfortunately still remains a fact that whole of a lot of people require weeks or even well over a month of hospitalization. Those people are there because they need it. And on top of covid cases, also other medical issues can have a deadly outcome, where under normal circumstances the patient would recover under good care.

I don't know how the US government communicates with it's people, but our government has been very clear that that is the scenario they want to prevent at high cost.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 10:15:59 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 17, 2020, 10:12:56 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:58:33 AM

Plenty of people also smoke and get cancer, some don't. Plenty of people go out in winter and get the flu, some don't. Human nature is not to be bunkered up for 10 months. I feel like we have to factor this in. We can't all throw our hands up in the air and act like humanity is this worthless, hopeless species because a virus is doing its thing. We fucked up handling it early on and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the bottle. The juice is loose, if you will. You have to let people go on living their lives and hopefully the vaccines will be here sooner rather than later. That's the only hope at this point of getting past this.

Hospitals have the resources to treat the steady influx of cancer patients.

For corona, they do not. While tragic, the current deathrate isn't it's major problem. If hospitals reach a point where there is no place anymore, a large amount of would-be hospitalization cases will potentially have a deadly outcome. Because, well, they cannot get treatment. And given the amount of hospitalizations vs deaths, that number has the chance to far exceed current death numbers. It unfortunately still remains a fact that whole of a lot of people require weeks or even well over a month of hospitalization. Those people are there because they need it. And on top of covid cases, also other medical issues can have a deadly outcome, where under normal circumstances the patient would recover under good care.

I don't know how the US government communicates with it's people, but our government has been very clear that that is the scenario they want to prevent at high cost.

And I know and agree with all of that. I was saying all of this back in April.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 17, 2020, 10:20:07 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:58:33 AM

Plenty of people also smoke and get cancer, some don't. Plenty of people go out in winter and get the flu, some don't. Human nature is not to be bunkered up for 10 months. I feel like we have to factor this in. We can't all throw our hands up in the air and act like humanity is this callous, hopeless species because a virus is doing its thing and we're falling victim to it. We fucked up handling it early on and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the bottle. The juice is loose, if you will. You have to let people go on living their lives and hopefully the vaccines will be here sooner rather than later. That's the only hope at this point of getting past this. Believe me, I would like nothing more than for everybody to just sit inside for 6 weeks and let it all go away. But that is so unrealistic it's laughable. Remember I'm not arguing for gatherings of people, just people sitting in a tent to get a meal.

I feel like it's a societal problem, not an industry's problem.

When case counts were lower, we were going to a restaurant now and then, usually at off-times, so that it wasn't too crowded.  But the fact that so many people HAVE to have a restaurant experience instead of eating at home (or at least getting takeout) boggles my mind a bit.  You can still support a restaurant by ordering something from them, without having to spend 60 minutes within the vicinity of other people. 

How would our society have lasted during WII - those people truly sacrificed through food and gas rationing and going without certain things because the factories switched to making war products.  But now, people are throwing fits over a luxury, like being able to go out to eat.  Get your takeout and stay at home, so that when my father in law has another heart attack or if his crohn's starts making him bleed liters of blood out of his rectum, there's room in the hospital for him.  That's what people are forgetting.  Just because we flattened the curve once, doesn't mean that we don't have to do it again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 10:22:38 AM

Quote from: Grappler on November 17, 2020, 10:20:07 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:58:33 AM

Plenty of people also smoke and get cancer, some don't. Plenty of people go out in winter and get the flu, some don't. Human nature is not to be bunkered up for 10 months. I feel like we have to factor this in. We can't all throw our hands up in the air and act like humanity is this callous, hopeless species because a virus is doing its thing and we're falling victim to it. We fucked up handling it early on and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the bottle. The juice is loose, if you will. You have to let people go on living their lives and hopefully the vaccines will be here sooner rather than later. That's the only hope at this point of getting past this. Believe me, I would like nothing more than for everybody to just sit inside for 6 weeks and let it all go away. But that is so unrealistic it's laughable. Remember I'm not arguing for gatherings of people, just people sitting in a tent to get a meal.

I feel like it's a societal problem, not an industry's problem.

When case counts were lower, we were going to a restaurant now and then, usually at off-times, so that it wasn't too crowded.  But the fact that so many people HAVE to have a restaurant experience instead of eating at home (or at least getting takeout) boggles my mind a bit.  You can still support a restaurant by ordering something from them, without having to spend 60 minutes within the vicinity of other people. 

How would our society have lasted during WII - those people truly sacrificed through food and gas rationing and going without certain things because the factories switched to making war products.  But now, people are throwing fits over a luxury, like being able to go out to eat.  Get your takeout and stay at home, so that when my father in law has another heart attack or if his crohn's starts making him bleed liters of blood out of his rectum, there's room in the hospital for him.  That's what people are forgetting.  Just because we flattened the curve once, doesn't mean that we don't have to do it again.

So (and I'm not being combative, I'm just typing stream of consciousness here) going to the grocery store where literally everybody has to go, is touching everything, is acceptable and we don't shame anybody for spending time in there, but being spread out outdoors trying to patronize a restaurant is bad? This is arbitrary judgment. This is what I don't get. Why not keep everybody at home and make the grocery stores deliver, then? If we are positing that restaurants should do that in order to avoid shutting down and dying, why not apply that to the grocery stores, where nobody's complaining about people going in and out all day long? I personally wouldn't call going out and getting a meal a 'luxury' per se, but I'm not trying to dine at a fine establishment, just the mom and pop store downtown.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 10:32:18 AM

I think it comes down to the term "essential" and restaurants are not considered that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 17, 2020, 10:34:35 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 10:22:38 AM

Quote from: Grappler on November 17, 2020, 10:20:07 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:58:33 AM

Plenty of people also smoke and get cancer, some don't. Plenty of people go out in winter and get the flu, some don't. Human nature is not to be bunkered up for 10 months. I feel like we have to factor this in. We can't all throw our hands up in the air and act like humanity is this callous, hopeless species because a virus is doing its thing and we're falling victim to it. We fucked up handling it early on and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the bottle. The juice is loose, if you will. You have to let people go on living their lives and hopefully the vaccines will be here sooner rather than later. That's the only hope at this point of getting past this. Believe me, I would like nothing more than for everybody to just sit inside for 6 weeks and let it all go away. But that is so unrealistic it's laughable. Remember I'm not arguing for gatherings of people, just people sitting in a tent to get a meal.

I feel like it's a societal problem, not an industry's problem.

When case counts were lower, we were going to a restaurant now and then, usually at off-times, so that it wasn't too crowded.  But the fact that so many people HAVE to have a restaurant experience instead of eating at home (or at least getting takeout) boggles my mind a bit.  You can still support a restaurant by ordering something from them, without having to spend 60 minutes within the vicinity of other people. 

How would our society have lasted during WII - those people truly sacrificed through food and gas rationing and going without certain things because the factories switched to making war products.  But now, people are throwing fits over a luxury, like being able to go out to eat.  Get your takeout and stay at home, so that when my father in law has another heart attack or if his crohn's starts making him bleed liters of blood out of his rectum, there's room in the hospital for him.  That's what people are forgetting.  Just because we flattened the curve once, doesn't mean that we don't have to do it again.

So (and I'm not being combative, I'm just typing stream of consciousness here) going to the grocery store where literally everybody has to go, is touching everything, is acceptable and we don't shame anybody for spending time in there, but being spread out outdoors trying to patronize a restaurant is bad? This is arbitrary judgment. This is what I don't get. Why not keep everybody at home and make the grocery stores deliver, then? If we are positing that restaurants should do that in order to avoid shutting down and dying, why not apply that to the grocery stores, where nobody's complaining about people going in and out all day long?

To me, this virus is about one thing - proximity to people for a prolonged period of time.  You may go to the grocery store and Person A in the cereal aisle has COVID.  You pass by him, while wearing a mask, grab a box, and walk on.  You're not around him, unmasked, for 60 minutes straight.  There is little risk of virus transmission if you remain distant, wear a mask and don't spend time around a person.

At a restaurant, you're sitting around other people, with your masks off, throughout a meal.  Mouths are opening and closing, people are talking, with droplets spreading.  In the last few months, I've had waiters approach our table and suggest that we could take our masks off if we preferred, while speaking to them.  Tables may not be 6 feet apart, you pass by tables while walking, encounter people in the restroom. 

It's the same when I take a train and commute to work - I'm in an enclosed train car, surrounded by other people.  The trains require masks and urge social distancing by not letting people sit in seats close together (luckily the ridership is down so that this works) but it's unnerving to see people with masks lowered beneath their nose, or completely off, while sitting 6 feet away, or a little less, even while I wear a mask.  I've actually gotten up and switched train cars to get away from maskless people.

I don't know how i feel about restaurant shutdowns - at times, I'm comfortable going to one.  Right now, there's no chance in hell I'd do indoor dining.  Too many new cases in my local area.  People need to learn to be flexible and give up, or reduce certain things, like going out to eat, so that we can all try to remain healthy. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 10:37:18 AM

While I do, very much, agree with almost all of that post, it ignores that people hack up a lung in the grocery store all the time, and stop to talk to other people, and are still breathing and touching everything. How many of those people you think wash their hands even during the pandemic? You might not catch anything from Douchebag A in the milk aisle, but what's to say you won't catch it from walking past Douchebags B-Z in the other 12 aisles? Proximity and amount of time absolutely matters, your chances are going to be lower, but you just never know. I would feel better sitting at an outdoor dining area spread out from people than I do currently going down the aisles squeezing past someone or their family, no lie.

I think everybody's doing their best to convince themselves of what is best, for them and at large - and I'm no exception. I'll also say I have literally not gone out to eat once all year, although I might on Sunday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 10:39:57 AM

Even with tents, most restaurants, and I'd say 90% of independent ones are fucked. The average restaurant needs to sell out at least 60% of their weekly seating capacity just to cover overhead without the extraneous expenses. I'd suggest everyone in the country, especially those in the suburbs to the city, get comfortable with the fact that about 75% of the places you love won't survive. Restaurants are hard to keep afloat in the best of times, running a profit margin at best 10%. Without govt assistance and a whole new way of operating my industry is garnered for a total reset.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 17, 2020, 11:05:21 AM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 10:39:57 AM

Even with tents, most restaurants, and I'd say 90% of independent ones are fucked. The average restaurant needs to sell out at least 60% of their weekly seating capacity just to cover overhead without the extraneous expenses. I'd suggest everyone in the country, especially those in the suburbs to the city, get comfortable with the fact that about 75% of the places you love won't survive. Restaurants are hard to keep afloat in the best of times, running a profit margin at best 10%. Without govt assistance and a whole new way of operating my industry is garnered for a total reset.

Frankly I'm shocked more restaurants haven't closed already. I'd guess most are just limping along trying not to fall too far behind and hope the weather the storm. I doubt too many are actually profiting right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 17, 2020, 11:07:08 AM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 10:39:57 AM

Even with tents, most restaurants, and I'd say 90% of independent ones are fucked. The average restaurant needs to sell out at least 60% of their weekly seating capacity just to cover overhead without the extraneous expenses. I'd suggest everyone in the country, especially those in the suburbs to the city, get comfortable with the fact that about 75% of the places you love won't survive. Restaurants are hard to keep afloat in the best of times, running a profit margin at best 10%. Without govt assistance and a whole new way of operating my industry is garnered for a total reset.

Robert Irvine is going to be one busy mofo.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 11:18:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 17, 2020, 11:07:08 AM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 10:39:57 AM

Even with tents, most restaurants, and I'd say 90% of independent ones are fucked. The average restaurant needs to sell out at least 60% of their weekly seating capacity just to cover overhead without the extraneous expenses. I'd suggest everyone in the country, especially those in the suburbs to the city, get comfortable with the fact that about 75% of the places you love won't survive. Restaurants are hard to keep afloat in the best of times, running a profit margin at best 10%. Without govt assistance and a whole new way of operating my industry is garnered for a total reset.

Robert Irvine is going to be one busy mofo.

I'm actually very curious as to what will vill the void left. I give it a year and a half before the industry has the client base to support it, will a lot of the small timers try another go, or will there be a whole new structure in its place. I had a chat on FB going about tip culture, and how this would be a prime time to step away from it once and for all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 11:36:41 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:40:48 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 09:10:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 17, 2020, 09:08:01 AM

it's not something we can ignore and hope takes care of itself (and I'm not suggesting that's what anyone is saying).

Yeah, that's definitely not what the Walrus is saying. The way I understand it, he's saying, allow the restaurants to do whatever they can to keep the money coming in. I'm just saying, why do they have to be alone in that? Why is the only way to keep the business open to have us in there, sitting inside (a tent?), ordering a meal and eating it? For something we all appreciate, something we all wanna keep open?

I was cranky earlier in the thread about how I didn't wanna do anything and how nothing that's actually open is worth the risk of getting out of the house for me. But that doesn't mean "oh well, what I like is closed, restaurants can die as far as I'm concerned if they don't get the magic stimulus which I dreamed up for them, since I don't actually care". I really do care.

Precisely. And if I came off as snippy in my post towards you, Mora, I apologize, that certainly wasn't the tone I was going for. I'm just very concerned what this winter is going to do to the economy, the restaurant industry, how much faster infection is going to spread. I do think they have to do whatever they can to stay open but I don't think shutting everything down and just printing a metric fuckton of money is the solution - just my opinion, in my own words ;)

I just don't think there's a good solution one way or another, honestly, at this point. Whatever the solution is, someone or some people are going to be negatively impacted. I do not envy health and government officials who have to make the decisions on how to handle this because they will be vilified no matter what they do.

You didn't come off snippy and it's perfectly fine. In fact, with what we're talking about, it's not a surprise we're not all snippy as fuck.

I'm just sad because we're using 1918 measures to fight a pandemic in a 2020 world. The one thing we have to preserve is work, because if you don't work, you starve, because no one will just give you money. Everything else is a "wow, can't believe you care about that". 9 months in and with at least 6 to go until outside weather, we should talk about preserving the non-essentials as well. After all, in-person non-essential work is also someone's lifelong job. That's where we agree. But if we don't start talking about it now and making noise, no one is going to do anything. They'll just leave the non-essentials limping until it's too late.

I'm also sad because this is the last place where I'm having any kind of quality discussions about this. We all agree that human lives are valuable, social time is valuable, the economy is valuable, we should wear masks but also work for a world where we can safely take them off, governments should look at the numbers and have some sort of restrictive measures to make sure no one is congregating in numbers that are too large, but there is such a thing as too restrictive. We just disagree enough to have some quality discussions on the best course of action. The rest of my world is currently discussing if the masks are psyop, if the numbers are artificially enhanced so the govts can do... idk, something, if "the world should have even stopped because of this virus", etc. It's depressing.

I love you guys though. I'm glad this thread exists.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 12:06:14 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 11:36:41 AM

I'm also sad because this is the last place where I'm having any kind of quality discussions about this.

Yea, this is kind of sad that it's true.  My friends are all sharing screenshots of a facebook post and argument between a girl we grew up with and her father  :facepalm: 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 17, 2020, 12:10:24 PM

We live in a sad world where my thoughts are more important than your thoughts and I'm going to let you all know it.  I find it exhausting to be that vocal and that divisive all the time.

Whenever someone asks me who I voted for I tell them, "None of your business."   Same thing with the Coronavirus.  I don't tell anyone my feelings.  I do share here because No one acts out when you tell them these things.

I just want to worry about myself, my wife, my family and my friends.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:51:28 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 07:44:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 07:31:46 AM

How does anybody expect restaurants to survive the winter if they can't do this? You're going to see the entire industry collapse by December if they can't do something to bring in business.

They should be closed for business, and (this is the key part) paid to remain closed. This way they get to shop for tents and heat lamps and cleaning supplies and pay for three mask changes per day per employee and deal with increased stress, and on top of it all, have people on TV saying "going to restaurants isn't safe, you really should avoid going there". And if at the end of it all they have to close, they will just be another business that didn't survive the difficult times.

You're literally talking about floating an entire industry with magic money in a country that's deeper in debt than it has ever been before.

You ever hear of a little thing called The Oil Industry?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 12:17:50 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 17, 2020, 12:10:24 PM

We live in a sad world where my thoughts are more important than your thoughts and I'm going to let you all know it.  I find it exhausting to be that vocal and that divisive all the time.

Whenever someone asks me who I voted for I tell them, "None of your business."   Same thing with the Coronavirus.  I don't tell anyone my feelings.  I do share here because No one acts out when you tell them these things.

I just want to worry about myself, my wife, my family and my friends.

Yup.  I am way more open here than anywhere else other than maybe in person with a few drinks shooting the shit.  I have NO desire to share my opinions on social media or comment on others. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 17, 2020, 12:24:11 PM

My friends know my political leanings.  I never push my agenda on anyone.  I expect that works both ways.  The internet allows for those to act poorly when expressing their believes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:25:17 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

But I guess that's part of American culture; we like to put the onus on the individual to save money, keep their business afloat, and stay alive rather than the government, even during a global pandemic. I would like to think that protecting its citizens from an event like this as best as it can is one of the purposes of government in the first place.

why can't people be allowed to decide what is in their best interest?

It's really simple: It's for the same exact reason that most medications have warning labels that read "don't take this if you're allergic to it" or why the box of laxatives suppositories has a warning on the label that reads, "remove from package before inserting into anus" etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. 

Basically, it's because everything has to be done with the assumption that the person who is going to be involved is as intelligent as a brick. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 12:41:53 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:25:17 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

But I guess that's part of American culture; we like to put the onus on the individual to save money, keep their business afloat, and stay alive rather than the government, even during a global pandemic. I would like to think that protecting its citizens from an event like this as best as it can is one of the purposes of government in the first place.

why can't people be allowed to decide what is in their best interest?

It's really simple: It's for the same exact reason that most medications have warning labels that read "don't take this if you're allergic to it" or why the box of laxatives suppositories has a warning on the label that reads, "remove from package before inserting into anus" etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. 

Basically, it's because everything has to be done with the assumption that the person who is going to be involved is as intelligent as a brick.

After 30 years of being a pessimist, this kind of outlook on the world is really starting to make me realize what a drag it can be. Not saying you're wrong, mind, but I'm not saying it's a good mentality to have either

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 17, 2020, 12:58:50 PM

Yep.  We can't trust people to decide what is best for them because we can't trust people.

If we could trust them, we wouldn't need nearly as many laws on the books, nor would Preparation H need a warning not to take orally.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 01:03:34 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone.

Well, I don't either, but jeeze. This is just such a fuckin' Debbie Downer attitude to have for life, I'm over it. We all act like we're smarter than 99% of everyone else. To each their own  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 17, 2020, 01:05:28 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 17, 2020, 12:58:50 PM

Yep.  We can't trust people to decide what is best for them because we can't trust people.

If we could trust them, we wouldn't need nearly as many laws on the books, nor would Preparation H need a warning not to take orally.

Or drinking bleach to stop Covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 17, 2020, 01:09:01 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 01:03:34 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone.

Well, I don't either, but jeeze. This is just such a fuckin' Debbie Downer attitude to have for life, I'm over it. We all act like we're smarter than 99% of everyone else. To each their own  :biggrin:

I don't have any problem leaving to each their own if their own doesn't rub up against MY own.

And I'm only smarter than maybe 85% of everyone else, not 99%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 01:10:38 PM

I am the 85%

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 17, 2020, 01:13:04 PM

I'm pretty sure there isn't a single person here who isn't smarter than me.

Except the people who don't vibe with Kevin Moore, I'm smarter than all of you.





Waiting to be banned any second now by the boss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 01:52:32 PM

I can't tell you the percentage I'm smarter than, but after 36 years, I can safely say more than the average  :lol which sadly isn't even saying that much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 01:03:34 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone.

Well, I don't either, but jeeze. This is just such a fuckin' Debbie Downer attitude to have for life, I'm over it. We all act like we're smarter than 99% of everyone else. To each their own  :biggrin:

Uh, just to be 100% clear, I am positively average when it comes to intelligence.  My IQ is 108 = average.  I am a trade school graduate, not a rocket scientist.  I'm not claiming to be "smarter" than anyone.   I just don't expect anything from anyone anymore because in my experience humans fucking suck.  Dogs are cool.  People,  not so much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 01:57:14 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 01:03:34 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone.

Well, I don't either, but jeeze. This is just such a fuckin' Debbie Downer attitude to have for life, I'm over it. We all act like we're smarter than 99% of everyone else. To each their own  :biggrin:

Uh, just to be 100% clear, I am positively average when it comes to intelligence.  My IQ is 108 = average.  I am a trade school graduate, not a rocket scientist.  I'm not claiming to be "smarter" than anyone.   I just don't expect anything from anyone anymore because in my experience humans fucking suck.  Dogs are cool.  People,  not so much.

Ugh the clichés keep coming...  :lol

Just busting balls, bud.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 01:57:55 PM

As a kid I tested at a 134, and have made every effort since then to lower that number.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 17, 2020, 02:01:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 01:57:55 PM

As a kid I tested at a 134, and have made every effort since then to lower that number.

I wanted to let you know you're doing one hell of a job their son.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 02:05:50 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 01:57:14 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 01:03:34 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone.

Well, I don't either, but jeeze. This is just such a fuckin' Debbie Downer attitude to have for life, I'm over it. We all act like we're smarter than 99% of everyone else. To each their own  :biggrin:

Uh, just to be 100% clear, I am positively average when it comes to intelligence.  My IQ is 108 = average.  I am a trade school graduate, not a rocket scientist.  I'm not claiming to be "smarter" than anyone.   I just don't expect anything from anyone anymore because in my experience humans fucking suck.  Dogs are cool.  People,  not so much.

Ugh the clichés keep coming...  :lol

Just busting balls, bud.

I'm running out of them now  :rollin  FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHOP BOBALOOBOP BOWOP BAM BOOM

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Implode on November 17, 2020, 02:08:03 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 01:57:55 PM

As a kid I tested at a 134, and have made every effort since then to lower that number.

Making the rest of the world smarter lowers that number.  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 17, 2020, 02:52:47 PM

Tom Brady gets hundreds of thousands in bail out money in July, and we have a friend who still hasn't received a nickel from the initial bailout.  His business will permanently shut down in the next month if his paperwork is not processed.

And people complain about 'socialism' when it pertains to the poor.  Oy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 02:57:08 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 17, 2020, 02:01:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 01:57:55 PM

As a kid I tested at a 134, and have made every effort since then to lower that number.

I wanted to let you know you're doing one hell of a job their son.

That and my daughter are my two greatest legacies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 03:48:41 PM

I scored 140 on an IQ test in college. I still think it's bullshit, but I also think I'm pretty stupid, so.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2020, 03:53:41 PM

From what I've read here, with the civil educated discussion, I'm not really worried about the IQ of everyone here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 17, 2020, 04:49:18 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 02:57:08 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 17, 2020, 02:01:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 17, 2020, 01:57:55 PM

As a kid I tested at a 134, and have made every effort since then to lower that number.

I wanted to let you know you're doing one hell of a job their son.

That and my daughter are my two greatest legacies.

The look in your eyes talking about it hit me in the feels. I could see how proud you were talking about your daughter. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 18, 2020, 06:36:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 12:41:53 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:25:17 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

But I guess that's part of American culture; we like to put the onus on the individual to save money, keep their business afloat, and stay alive rather than the government, even during a global pandemic. I would like to think that protecting its citizens from an event like this as best as it can is one of the purposes of government in the first place.

why can't people be allowed to decide what is in their best interest?

It's really simple: It's for the same exact reason that most medications have warning labels that read "don't take this if you're allergic to it" or why the box of laxatives suppositories has a warning on the label that reads, "remove from package before inserting into anus" etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. 

Basically, it's because everything has to be done with the assumption that the person who is going to be involved is as intelligent as a brick.

After 30 years of being a pessimist, this kind of outlook on the world is really starting to make me realize what a drag it can be. Not saying you're wrong, mind, but I'm not saying it's a good mentality to have either

Well, the problem is two-fold:  one, pure intelligence doesn't mean you make good personal decisions, and two, increasingly "I don't agree with you" is translating as "You are not intelligent".  As someone who MEASURES as intelligent, it's maddening to have to give basic bona fides as part of any expression of (political/social) opinion.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 18, 2020, 07:10:35 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 18, 2020, 06:36:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 12:41:53 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:25:17 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 17, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: Implode on November 17, 2020, 08:55:51 AM

I agree that the impact on the economy and national debt if we were to shut down everything is not insignificant, but shouldn't human lives be more important than that? I know it's an incredibly complicated issue, but something doesn't sit right with me that one of the prices we put on human lives now is that which we are unwilling to pay to allow restaurants to temporarily close down without them going out of business.

But I guess that's part of American culture; we like to put the onus on the individual to save money, keep their business afloat, and stay alive rather than the government, even during a global pandemic. I would like to think that protecting its citizens from an event like this as best as it can is one of the purposes of government in the first place.

why can't people be allowed to decide what is in their best interest?

It's really simple: It's for the same exact reason that most medications have warning labels that read "don't take this if you're allergic to it" or why the box of laxatives suppositories has a warning on the label that reads, "remove from package before inserting into anus" etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. 

Basically, it's because everything has to be done with the assumption that the person who is going to be involved is as intelligent as a brick.

After 30 years of being a pessimist, this kind of outlook on the world is really starting to make me realize what a drag it can be. Not saying you're wrong, mind, but I'm not saying it's a good mentality to have either

Well, the problem is two-fold:  one, pure intelligence doesn't mean you make good personal decisions, and two, increasingly "I don't agree with you" is translating as "You are not intelligent".  As someone who MEASURES as intelligent, it's maddening to have to give basic bona fides as part of any expression of (political/social) opinion.

Man, you couldn't have said it better. 100%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 18, 2020, 07:25:30 AM

As has been written in innumerable memes over the past several years, it is possible to disagree and take up a contrary position with someone while still respecting that person and their intelligence. Debate, discourse, and intelligent conversation should not exist in a vacuum bereft of respect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 18, 2020, 08:20:36 AM

Some potentially good news today on the immunity front:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-immunity-could-last-years-191939456.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-immunity-could-last-years-191939456.html)

Quote

While it's still unclear exactly how long immunity may last, or whether it could prevent transmission (though that is certainly plausible), the new study has eased experts' concerns of short-lived protection based on studies that pointed to declining antibodies. Antibodies, after all, are just one facet of the body's complex immune system, and the new study indicated that other factors like T cells showed only a slight decay several months out from infection, while B cells, which produce new antibodies as needed, had actually grown in number in most participants.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 18, 2020, 08:23:40 AM

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 18, 2020, 07:25:30 AM

As has been written in innumerable memes over the past several years, it is possible to disagree and take up a contrary position with someone while still respecting that person and their intelligence. Debate, discourse, and intelligent conversation should not exist in a vacuum bereft of respect.

I posted something almost identical to this on my social media a couple months ago and someone immediately chimed in with, "Yeah except some of those people want to see me dead," and I rolled my eyes, like... no shit I'm not defending those people dude, why do you have to automatically go to the extremes like I'm not aware  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 18, 2020, 08:54:27 AM

Back in the day. Stupidity and Curiousness would get you killed, and all anyone would do is shrug and say, "Well, they should've known better"  or "I told them, but they didn't believe me, and had to see for themselves."

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone. 

You know what I learned. Expectations are the cause for a lot of people's disappointment and grief. When someone has such high expectations of things, it clouds the reality. You end up believing those expectations, while ignoring the fact some people are not capable of living up to those high expectations. Lowering expectations, or not having any at all, can help you see a persons full potential, and then you can help them reach that potential, without the cloud of expectation clouding the view.

I have realized that and accepted that fact. Life is to complicated to be worrying about others at times, It's good to worry, but why worry when you do all that you can do when they don't even bother to do anything for themselves, It's pointless and you shrug and pray for the best for them, to one day realize their errors and correct their ways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 18, 2020, 12:52:52 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 18, 2020, 08:54:27 AM

Back in the day. Stupidity and Curiousness would get you killed, and all anyone would do is shrug and say, "Well, they should've known better"  or "I told them, but they didn't believe me, and had to see for themselves."

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone. 

You know what I learned. Expectations are the cause for a lot of people's disappointment and grief.

So, so true.  I am rarely disappointed because I expect the worst from everyone.  It's kind of a sad commentary on our society that I live my life this way and experience very few surprises these days because I expect the worst from everyone.  It's not intended to reflect negatively on everyone around me.  It's intended to protect myself, to shield myself from constant disappointment, which is what my life was for a long time because I always expected people to think the way I think, which is to default to kindness and sharing.  To be more interested in giving than in receiving.  I spent the first half of my life being a taker.  Being that person that everyone crosses the street to avoid when they see them coming.  Being that person who makes the older version of me into a much more emotionally and socially cautious person.  It's too bad I can't jump in a time machine and go tell that fucking idiot 19-year-old version of myself what the real deal is, but we all play the hand we're dealt, not the hand we wish we had. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 18, 2020, 01:15:55 PM

I have zero interest in arguing with you, and certainly there's no intent to change your mind, but there's a wide chasm between "expecting the worst from people" and "expecting everyone to live with my level of kindness and compassion".   First, that requires a level of self-reflection and honesty that many do not have in sufficient quantities to be realistic and effective.  Second, people play up or down to the competition.   I refuse to expect the worst out of people simply because it creates an avenue for them to deliver on that.  I can gird myself in other, less self-fulfilling ways.   

I like that idea of "play the hand we're dealt, not the hand we wish we had"; there's an element to which doing that removes some of the emotion from things.   Just not taking it personally is a HUGE step in the right direction, or at least reserving that for those times when it's CLEARLY personal/emotional.    I don't expect the customer service team at Apple to suck and be horrible people.  I expect them to be professionals; but if they aren't it's not personal, it's not about me, and I have no standing to demand anything else.  There are a LOT of people who love to play the metaphorical "do you know who I AM?!?" card.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 18, 2020, 02:21:54 PM

No worries, I don't take it as arguing at all.  I don't know.  I guess you'd have to walk a few miles in my hush puppies to get a better sense of where I'm coming from with this and I'm probably not doing a great job of expressing it.  I'm really not a pessimistic person.  This recent election is a great example of my positive outlook.  Most of my friends on social media were freaking the fuck out about the election because they were all convinced that they were not going to like the outcome.  I remained very confident in what the outcome would be and I was positively bursting with optimism throughout the entire 2020 election cycle.  And in the end, although I was wrong about the margins, I was right about the outcome, even though the "expect the worst from everyone" philosophy was still there, I thought people with my worldview would rise to this occasion and they did, in an historic way too. 


So I don't want to leave everyone with the impression that I am this totally constantly negative person who spews nothing but anger and resentment.  Not at all.  In fact, since I gave up expecting anything good from anyone my life has improved dramatically.  To put it in the simplest terms I guess you could say I just don't give a fuck anymore.  I don't need to convince anyone that I'm right, wrong or indifferent about anything because I stopped caring what other people think.  The freedom this mindset offers is very refreshing. 


You may have noticed I steer clear of the politics forums now.  I have about as much interest in arguing about politics as I do in shoving a catheter up my urethra.  Such a colossal waste of time and effort that was.  It was one of the best things I ever did for myself. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 18, 2020, 03:28:05 PM

I get what you're saying, I'm also of the thought of lowering my expectations so that I'm not upset by results from people.  Typically it leads me to being more pleasantly surprised than upset.  I don't really find myself to overall be pessimistic either.  I have my moments for sure though.  I just don't think humans in the general public are anything for me to have expectations from.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 18, 2020, 03:28:36 PM

HUMANS BAD! Faith in humanity, like, totes lost!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 18, 2020, 04:36:14 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 18, 2020, 12:52:52 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 18, 2020, 08:54:27 AM

Back in the day. Stupidity and Curiousness would get you killed, and all anyone would do is shrug and say, "Well, they should've known better"  or "I told them, but they didn't believe me, and had to see for themselves."

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 17, 2020, 12:52:25 PM

I know I'm not wrong.  :biggrin:    The world is full of selfish fucking morons who don't give two shits about anything other than themselves.   Knowing this makes my life a lot less frustrating.  Basically, lower your expectations and you won't be constantly disappointed in people.  I used to expect people to treat me the same way I treat them, but I've learned over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again that NO ONE reciprocates.   Ever.  And if they DO it's because they have an agenda.  Cynical?  Yep.  And I live a better life as a result because I am NEVER disappointed with anyone because I don't expect squat from anyone. 

You know what I learned. Expectations are the cause for a lot of people's disappointment and grief.

So, so true.  I am rarely disappointed because I expect the worst from everyone.  It's kind of a sad commentary on our society that I live my life this way and experience very few surprises these days because I expect the worst from everyone.  It's not intended to reflect negatively on everyone around me.  It's intended to protect myself, to shield myself from constant disappointment, which is what my life was for a long time because I always expected people to think the way I think, which is to default to kindness and sharing.  To be more interested in giving than in receiving.  I spent the first half of my life being a taker.  Being that person that everyone crosses the street to avoid when they see them coming.  Being that person who makes the older version of me into a much more emotionally and socially cautious person.  It's too bad I can't jump in a time machine and go tell that fucking idiot 19-year-old version of myself what the real deal is, but we all play the hand we're dealt, not the hand we wish we had.

Great words there. I too wish I could tell my teenage self these things. But everyone wishes they can change the past, so why reflect upon it. As Rafiki from The Lion King says when he wacks Simba on the noggin, "Doesn't matter, its in the past."

I like how you said that "We are played the hand we're dealt, not the hand we want." That is true. We sometimes get a hand we have no choice but to fold. But, then after we get a hand we can put all our chips in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 18, 2020, 04:42:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 18, 2020, 01:15:55 PM

   I don't expect the customer service team at Apple to suck and be horrible people.  I expect them to be professionals; but if they aren't it's not personal, it's not about me, and I have no standing to demand anything else.  There are a LOT of people who love to play the metaphorical "do you know who I AM?!?" card.   

I respond back..."Obviously not, or else, I'd be groveling like these people"

I expect The Apple Team to hire people who are skilled in Apple product knowledge of software and repair. That's expected of a company that is pushing a product you use. I would want them to have basic knowledge of how to fix it, because I sure as hell don't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 18, 2020, 04:55:36 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 18, 2020, 02:21:54 PM

No worries, I don't take it as arguing at all.  I don't know.  I guess you'd have to walk a few miles in my hush puppies to get a better sense of where I'm coming from with this and I'm probably not doing a great job of expressing it.  I'm really not a pessimistic person.  This recent election is a great example of my positive outlook.  Most of my friends on social media were freaking the fuck out about the election because they were all convinced that they were not going to like the outcome.  I remained very confident in what the outcome would be and I was positively bursting with optimism throughout the entire 2020 election cycle.  And in the end, although I was wrong about the margins, I was right about the outcome, even though the "expect the worst from everyone" philosophy was still there, I thought people with my worldview would rise to this occasion and they did, in an historic way too. 

Since I have low expectations, and when people do things collectively that are beneficial for all of humanity, it gives me a sense of "Alright..." in a good way, like a feeling of joy for all of us as a collective human species.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 18, 2020, 02:21:54 PM

So I don't want to leave everyone with the impression that I am this totally constantly negative person who spews nothing but anger and resentment.  Not at all.  In fact, since I gave up expecting anything good from anyone my life has improved dramatically.  To put it in the simplest terms I guess you could say I just don't give a fuck anymore.  I don't need to convince anyone that I'm right, wrong or indifferent about anything because I stopped caring what other people think.  The freedom this mindset offers is very refreshing. 


You may have noticed I steer clear of the politics forums now.  I have about as much interest in arguing about politics as I do in shoving a catheter up my urethra.  Such a colossal waste of time and effort that was.  It was one of the best things I ever did for myself.

I totally understand that view you are describing. the "I don't give a fuck" mindset. It's like, I am looking out for what is best for myself, and if you don't like it, well too bad, This is helping me better myself and be a better human being. Only "The Self" Knows itself, and not "The Other". "The Other" can never know everything about "The Self".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 19, 2020, 06:44:40 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 18, 2020, 02:21:54 PM

No worries, I don't take it as arguing at all.  I don't know.  I guess you'd have to walk a few miles in my hush puppies to get a better sense of where I'm coming from with this and I'm probably not doing a great job of expressing it.  I'm really not a pessimistic person.  This recent election is a great example of my positive outlook.  Most of my friends on social media were freaking the fuck out about the election because they were all convinced that they were not going to like the outcome.  I remained very confident in what the outcome would be and I was positively bursting with optimism throughout the entire 2020 election cycle.  And in the end, although I was wrong about the margins, I was right about the outcome, even though the "expect the worst from everyone" philosophy was still there, I thought people with my worldview would rise to this occasion and they did, in an historic way too. 


So I don't want to leave everyone with the impression that I am this totally constantly negative person who spews nothing but anger and resentment.  Not at all.  In fact, since I gave up expecting anything good from anyone my life has improved dramatically.  To put it in the simplest terms I guess you could say I just don't give a fuck anymore.  I don't need to convince anyone that I'm right, wrong or indifferent about anything because I stopped caring what other people think.  The freedom this mindset offers is very refreshing. 


You may have noticed I steer clear of the politics forums now.  I have about as much interest in arguing about politics as I do in shoving a catheter up my urethra.  Such a colossal waste of time and effort that was.  It was one of the best things I ever did for myself.

I appreciate your honesty.  My response is offered for others to contemplate, but I think I've come to a similar - not identical - place but in a very different way (and it's not for everyone, just look in the P/R area for proof of that).

I saw you wrote this:  "Most of my friends on social media were freaking the fuck out about the election because they were all convinced that they were not going to like the outcome." and "I thought people with my worldview would rise to this occasion and they did, in an historic way too." 

I struggle to equate that mindset - not saying you are wrong, simply saying I struggle with it - with this, which I agree with deeply:  "We are played the hand we're dealt, not the hand we want."    They are not really compatible, at least as I see it.  I believe I'm a good person, with good intentions, who cares about other people.   Yet - just to use your example, not to make this about politics - I don't see the election outcome in the same metaphysical way you do.  It's not the product of an optimistic worldview.  It was a different kind of disaster.   So something - or someone - is wrong.  I don't think it's as easy as "you are", or "I am", so how do we reconcile that?   And I've sort of chosen to separate the emotional out of it.   There is no "right" or "wrong" in that sense of the word.  THERE CAN'T BE; it's illogical, because both states can't coexist.

We - and the people that think like us - do not exist in a vacuum.  The world is CHOCK FULL of people that think differently from me AND that thing differently from each other.  There's not two sides, one right and one wrong.  There are 20, 30, 40, 50, maybe more, maybe 1,000's of sides, each with elements of objective right and subjective maybe (could be right, could be wrong, sometimes both in context) and we have to allow for that.   I can't - psychologically - view the world as simply "worst case"; I'm not wired that way, so I have sort of been pushed in the corner of removing the emotion from it.  It's not easy, especially when most of the people around you not only haven't, but have no interest in doing that, but it is what it is.  I have traded momentary bouts of doubt and anxiety for a far more comprehensive sort of peace that I never really had before.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 19, 2020, 11:16:13 AM

Forum lacks a "like" button but that was a quality post  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 19, 2020, 12:06:14 PM

I had a old work colleague, and current FB friend post this.  He posted quite a number of months about about participating in a trial, so I'm fully confident this is 100% legit.

Quote

Pfizer Vaccine Public Service Announcement (my version):
Based on the side effects after the injections, I’m 100% certain I received the Pfizer COVID vaccine and not the placebo as part of the trial. Here’s what I’ll say (which aligns with what most are reporting)...
- 1st injection, no big deal. Injection site pain is MUCH worse and lasts longer than any other shot I’ve ever had, but it didn’t disrupt my day.
- 2nd injection produced some notable unpleasantness, but it was gone the next day. I had the same level of injection site pain as the 1st shot, but that night was no fun AT ALL. Entire body ached, and I suffered chills (1st time in my life) as well as sweating. Had a very difficult time sleeping. But in the morning, I was fine. Basically a 24 hour impact without really disrupting anything (whatever “work” it is that I do didn’t change).
Regardless of the side effects, they were nowhere near bad enough to dissuade me from doing it over and over again if that’s what it takes. I continue with all the same precautions that I did before (including always wearing a mask when in proximity to others), but my mind is much more at ease. I like that! I wish <wife> and <child> could have gotten it, too. We will keep up our vigilance until it’s widely available. We’re not letting our guards down.
With 95% efficacy reported, this appears to be a game changer, so get in line as soon as it’s available to you! I suggest that you don’t fret about the side effects. I’ve had PLENTY of hangovers that were much more miserable and lasted longer 😖🤣🍺
Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming

Still not sure I'll be "lining up" out of the gate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 19, 2020, 12:10:53 PM

I'm not worried about the short term side effects, if it's shown that it works, I'll get it when available.  I'll believe the science and do my part, I want to go back to concerts sooner than later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 12:12:59 PM

I'll just wait and see how this plays out before I go rushing out

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 19, 2020, 12:36:41 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 19, 2020, 12:06:14 PM

I had a old work colleague, and current FB friend post this.  He posted quite a number of months about about participating in a trial, so I'm fully confident this is 100% legit.

Quote

Pfizer Vaccine Public Service Announcement (my version):
Based on the side effects after the injections, I’m 100% certain I received the Pfizer COVID vaccine and not the placebo as part of the trial. Here’s what I’ll say (which aligns with what most are reporting)...
- 1st injection, no big deal. Injection site pain is MUCH worse and lasts longer than any other shot I’ve ever had, but it didn’t disrupt my day.
- 2nd injection produced some notable unpleasantness, but it was gone the next day. I had the same level of injection site pain as the 1st shot, but that night was no fun AT ALL. Entire body ached, and I suffered chills (1st time in my life) as well as sweating. Had a very difficult time sleeping. But in the morning, I was fine. Basically a 24 hour impact without really disrupting anything (whatever “work” it is that I do didn’t change).
Regardless of the side effects, they were nowhere near bad enough to dissuade me from doing it over and over again if that’s what it takes. I continue with all the same precautions that I did before (including always wearing a mask when in proximity to others), but my mind is much more at ease. I like that! I wish <wife> and <child> could have gotten it, too. We will keep up our vigilance until it’s widely available. We’re not letting our guards down.
With 95% efficacy reported, this appears to be a game changer, so get in line as soon as it’s available to you! I suggest that you don’t fret about the side effects. I’ve had PLENTY of hangovers that were much more miserable and lasted longer 😖🤣🍺
Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming

Still not sure I'll be "lining up" out of the gate.

"Whatever "work" it is that I do"?  That's something a pimp would say.   :) :) :)

In any event, I'm in.  I'll be first in line if need be.   I like Cram's attitude:  I'll believe the science and do my part.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 12:38:16 PM

I'm high risk so yeah, I'll be first to get the shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 19, 2020, 12:41:36 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 12:12:59 PM

I'll just wait and see how this plays out before I go rushing out

I'm not falling into the high risk group, so I think based on that I'll have no option other than to wait and see as the most needed will get it first and I'm also guessing the military will get it.  While no one is going to know long term effects anytime soon, I think we are going to find that these are extremely safe.

I just wonder what types of situations are going to require you to get vaccinated.  Such as a job, or going to school, or going to a concert.  Certain scenarios may force people to get it sooner than they'd like I'd imagine. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 12:54:51 PM

I'm certain it's safe, I'm just not tryna be first in line to get shot up

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:12:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

This is the second time I have heard you would pledge to suck cock for something now

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 01:15:25 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

You rang?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 19, 2020, 01:17:32 PM

This got awkward quick  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on November 19, 2020, 01:17:58 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

Hold on, Bob Saget's character from Half Baked is calling....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on November 19, 2020, 01:40:51 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

(https://i.imgur.com/drmhxql.jpg)

Was this you? ;)

(Don't worry TAC - we don't expect you to understand.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 01:42:42 PM

Even when talking about sucking a dick, it all ends up about Tim.  How poetic.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:42:56 PM

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:46:16 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:12:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

This is the second time I have heard you would pledge to suck cock for something now

Work in a restaurant, it happens daily.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:49:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:46:16 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:12:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

This is the second time I have heard you would pledge to suck cock for something now

Work in a restaurant, it happens daily.

Sucking cock?!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 19, 2020, 01:50:56 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:49:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:46:16 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:12:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

This is the second time I have heard you would pledge to suck cock for something now

Work in a restaurant, it happens daily.

Sucking cock?!

This is where the special sauce comes from

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 01:52:42 PM

It's the fastest way to stir 3 pots.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 19, 2020, 02:14:48 PM

Wow; step away for an hour or two and all hell breaks loose!   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 02:16:02 PM

It's all Tim's Fault.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 19, 2020, 02:16:52 PM

 :facepalm: :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 19, 2020, 02:31:31 PM

Enter thread expecting serious discussion, get :corn

I'm 28, unemployed and in picture perfect health so I expect to be somewhere in the fifth or sixth wave of vaccination. If only I could get switched with some out of shape geezer (none here) who says they wanna wait and see :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on November 19, 2020, 02:32:17 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 19, 2020, 01:52:42 PM

It's the fastest way to stir 3 pots.

Maybe toss a salad while you’re at it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 03:29:34 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:49:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:46:16 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 19, 2020, 01:12:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 01:12:03 PM

I'll suck the vaccine out of a random man's cock if it'll get us back to normal.

This is the second time I have heard you would pledge to suck cock for something now

Work in a restaurant, it happens daily.

Sucking cock?!

In the old days, yes lol.

Apologies for the entertaining derailment. It's Tim's fault of course

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 19, 2020, 03:43:43 PM

Well, at least nobody blamed Canada!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 19, 2020, 03:45:11 PM

They're not really a real country anyways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 19, 2020, 03:50:14 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 19, 2020, 03:45:11 PM

They're not really a real country anyways.

*must resist highly inappropriate comment ...*  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 19, 2020, 03:53:25 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 19, 2020, 02:31:31 PM

Enter thread expecting serious discussion, get :corn

I'm 28, unemployed and in picture perfect health so I expect to be somewhere in the fifth or sixth wave of vaccination. If only I could get switched with some out of shape geezer (none here) who says they wanna wait and see :lol

I could tie this comment in with the recent ones on this page.....but I might get banned!   :D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 03:53:45 PM

Yeah, you'd swear Tim was Canadian.


That's how you really insult a hoser.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 19, 2020, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on November 19, 2020, 03:53:25 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 19, 2020, 02:31:31 PM

Enter thread expecting serious discussion, get :corn

I'm 28, unemployed and in picture perfect health so I expect to be somewhere in the fifth or sixth wave of vaccination. If only I could get switched with some out of shape geezer (none here) who says they wanna wait and see :lol

I could tie this comment in with the recent ones on this page.....but I might get banned!   :D

I think bans will be issued for this exchange first:

Quote from: Snow Dog on November 19, 2020, 02:32:17 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 19, 2020, 01:52:42 PM

It's the fastest way to stir 3 pots.

Maybe toss a salad while you’re at it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 04:08:17 PM

I would.  Get that salad out of here. Double entendre or not. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 19, 2020, 06:29:03 PM

Well we got a curfew in Cali now. 10pm to 5am, for a month. Comes right on the tail of Newaom's brilliant 'bday party at the French Laundry' scandal, so the social media is especially vehement of it. Gonna be an interesting month.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 19, 2020, 06:46:02 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 19, 2020, 03:53:45 PM

Yeah, you'd swear Tim was Canadian.

Oh you motherfucker. Now you went and done it.

It's on!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 19, 2020, 06:58:23 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 19, 2020, 02:31:31 PM

Enter thread expecting serious discussion, get :corn

I'm 28, unemployed and in picture perfect health so I expect to be somewhere in the fifth or sixth wave of vaccination. If only I could get switched with some out of shape geezer (none here) who says they wanna wait and see :lol

If you're looking to cut a deal with an out of shape geezer, I feel you've come to the right place, though. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on November 19, 2020, 07:01:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 19, 2020, 12:36:41 PM

In any event, I'm in.  I'll be first in line if need be.   I like Cram's attitude:  I'll believe the science and do my part.

This.  And honestly, by the time it gets to regular folks like us, there will be a lot of feedback on how it went for those getting it right away (medical community, high at-risk peeps, etc.), so should be no fear in getting it as long as there are no major setbacks or dangerous side effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 19, 2020, 07:06:22 PM

Quote from: TAC on November 19, 2020, 06:46:02 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 19, 2020, 03:53:45 PM

Yeah, you'd swear Tim was Canadian.

Oh you motherfucker. Now you went and done it.

It's on!!

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 20, 2020, 01:06:40 AM

At least in Italy the tenteative plan - since you can't vaccinate 60 millions of people overnight - is to give it first to doctors and nurses, then the elder population, then eventually everybody else. Which makes sense.

Also, count me in among the "ok, I'll do it and accept to feel very crap for a day or two" if I can go to concerts next summer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 20, 2020, 05:31:49 AM

jingle.family was just talking about this last night.  Since I and mrs.jingle can still keep mostly (entirely) to ourselves, I'm content to wait for vaccine 2.0 or 3.1.  jingle.kids might be going back to school, so I can see it being mandatory (virtually, or actually) for them.  There's really no use in worrying about long-term consequences, because ain't nobody gonna know them for a long time.

I just hope the world doesn't go all Children of Men in 20 years!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 20, 2020, 07:17:01 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 20, 2020, 05:31:49 AM

I just hope the world doesn't go all Children of Men in 20 years!

What, you don't like excitement?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on November 20, 2020, 10:01:31 AM

High-risk old man here.  I'll be taking the first vaccine I can.  Pfizer is pushing for the fastest fast-track they can get, and I'm fine with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 20, 2020, 11:34:38 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on November 19, 2020, 07:01:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on November 19, 2020, 12:36:41 PM

In any event, I'm in.  I'll be first in line if need be.   I like Cram's attitude:  I'll believe the science and do my part.

This.  And honestly, by the time it gets to regular folks like us, there will be a lot of feedback on how it went for those getting it right away (medical community, high at-risk peeps, etc.), so should be no fear in getting it as long as there are no major setbacks or dangerous side effects.

Our governor has been tweeting about this lately.  It sounds like it's really not that far away for even the average folk.  They expect 130k doses by end of the year and will be ready to give those out.  He didn't say, but it seems healthcare workers and most vulnerable, but he also said he expects the average person to be able to get it by April and he wants 70% of adults to have it by then.  I don't see us hitting those numbers as such a significant amount of people are skeptical, but it seems like logistics aren't going to be the big hurdle, it'll be convincing the public.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on November 20, 2020, 12:56:57 PM

DeBlasio and Cuomo truly hate each other. DB said, " no school for NY public schools" and Cuomo undercut him. Now everyone is left scratching their heads and wondering.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 20, 2020, 06:21:45 PM

Quote from: Orbert on November 20, 2020, 10:01:31 AM

High-risk old man here.  I'll be taking the first vaccine I can.  Pfizer is pushing for the fastest fast-track they can get, and I'm fine with that.

Same.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 22, 2020, 12:31:17 AM

The wife slipped on some slick and too-short-of-run new steps on a deck of our friends today.  Visible broken ankle.  I got her to Emergency at 202pm.  I went home at 4.  I went back to the hospital at 7.  Went back home at 8.

Each time I saw her for my allotted two minutes, she was not in an isolated room, but in the waiting area with 30-40 people, some who were just too sick or mentally off to keep their masks up.  She didn't have her own room, was not isolated, blah blah blah.

I got her home at 1 AM.  Up until 11pm she was in that waiting area.  Finally was taken back to get a cast.  The broken bone is protruding where the tongue of one's shoe is.  Pre Covid, she would have had the surgery and spent the night.  Now....she'll have surgery some time the week after T'giving.

What is unforgiveable....is allowing her to be exposed for all of those hours.  The ankle:  eff it, it'll heal or get fixed. 

The virus:  we are both petrified!  It's not right, and it's not fair.  Quite the hoax, ey? :censored

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 22, 2020, 05:51:24 AM

Damn Dragon... that's awful.  I hope there's no COVID issues, and the foot heals properly.  mrs.jingle broke a bone in her foot last summer (ie, 16 months ago), and it took a long time to be pain free.  A friend of hers had a much more problematic experience - same kind of break, around the same time.  Multiple surgeries, and she still ain't right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 22, 2020, 06:35:20 AM

Damn. That is scary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 22, 2020, 07:44:18 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on November 22, 2020, 12:31:17 AM

The wife slipped on some slick and too-short-of-run new steps on a deck of our friends today.  Visible broken ankle.  I got her to Emergency at 202pm.  I went home at 4.  I went back to the hospital at 7.  Went back home at 8.

Each time I saw her for my allotted two minutes, she was not in an isolated room, but in the waiting area with 30-40 people, some who were just too sick or mentally off to keep their masks up.  She didn't have her own room, was not isolated, blah blah blah.

I got her home at 1 AM.  Up until 11pm she was in that waiting area.  Finally was taken back to get a cast.  The broken bone is protruding where the tongue of one's shoe is.  Pre Covid, she would have had the surgery and spent the night.  Now....she'll have surgery some time the week after T'giving.

What is unforgiveable....is allowing her to be exposed for all of those hours.  The ankle:  eff it, it'll heal or get fixed. 

The virus:  we are both petrified!  It's not right, and it's not fair.  Quite the hoax, ey? :censored

No wonder people are catching it in hospitals.

Sorry for your wife's ankle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on November 22, 2020, 08:21:21 AM

It seems like it shouldn't be that hard to have a waiting room for anyone with Covid symptoms and a separate waiting room for those in for other reasons. It must be harder than I think it should be because the people running hospitals aren't stupid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 22, 2020, 09:09:17 AM

Fuck that sucks, hope she recovers ok bud.


Haven't listened to the whole interview yet, but restaurateur and Top Chef judge Tom Colicchio calls Covid an Extinction level event for my industry, and it's hard for me to disagree with him. Frightening times ahead for all us chefs, waiters, bartenders and the like. Please, get take out food, get it often. If you have a favorite local place that you don't want to lose, patronize them heavily. They are in dire straits.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/restaurateur-tom-colicchio-covid-restaurants-extinction/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=105002064&fbclid=IwAR1UKAWcj9_5Qqbil2GEpSzKYCkqXnt-RZTCJRplmfDtoWNYREKiNPjT-94 (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/restaurateur-tom-colicchio-covid-restaurants-extinction/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=105002064&fbclid=IwAR1UKAWcj9_5Qqbil2GEpSzKYCkqXnt-RZTCJRplmfDtoWNYREKiNPjT-94)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 22, 2020, 10:04:31 AM

Quote from: lonestar on November 22, 2020, 09:09:17 AM

Fuck that sucks, hope she recovers ok bud.


Haven't listened to the whole interview yet, but restaurateur and Top Chef judge Tom Colicchio calls Covid an Extinction level event for my industry, and it's hard for me to disagree with him. Frightening times ahead for all us chefs, waiters, bartenders and the like. Please, get take out food, get it often. If you have a favorite local place that you don't want to lose, patronize them heavily. They are in dire straits.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/restaurateur-tom-colicchio-covid-restaurants-extinction/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=105002064&fbclid=IwAR1UKAWcj9_5Qqbil2GEpSzKYCkqXnt-RZTCJRplmfDtoWNYREKiNPjT-94 (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/restaurateur-tom-colicchio-covid-restaurants-extinction/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=105002064&fbclid=IwAR1UKAWcj9_5Qqbil2GEpSzKYCkqXnt-RZTCJRplmfDtoWNYREKiNPjT-94)

Unfortunately, you're industry is one of many industries getting the blunt of this.


What I find interesting is, I know how many people in our state shop at Wal-Mart. It's a lot. So based on that logic, I stay away from that place. That's not even factoring in the Wal-Mart stories we all hear about. My priority is staying away from there (we all should anyways :biggrin:). I am trying to shop more locally, and going to smaller regional businesses. Like your Alberstons/Jewel Osco/Smiths'/Fry's/etc., and your Natural Stores, Trader Joes/Sprouts/Whole Foods. Most people here don't go to these stores, mainly, it's the "Rich White People" whom go there, or the "Health Nuts". Shit those places have good food. Trader Joe's was the best because they sampled their own products, even their coffee, that's how you market your store and products you sell.

My priority, as a native man, is to prevent my elders from catching it. I don't have any grandparents, but I do have uncles and aunties, and other close relatives, my family, that are vulnerable to getting it. They still go out and all that, because they are in control of their own bodies and minds, I can do all I can to tell them to stay home, but they don't want to be stuck inside and lonely all day. So what am I to do?...Nothing, just continue on with my life, and pray they won't catch it while out there in the world. They know they can catch it, and still go places, as I know I can catch it as well, but still need to eat and live. I would love to plant my own foods, and collect my own rain water, but that knowledge was taken from us and now I am here waiting in a long ass line, worried about some ass coughing on me, getting me sick, and killing my people.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 22, 2020, 12:43:51 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on November 22, 2020, 08:21:21 AM

It seems like it shouldn't be that hard to have a waiting room for anyone with Covid symptoms and a separate waiting room for those in for other reasons. It must be harder than I think it should be because the people running hospitals aren't stupid.

I expected my wife to have her own room or shared room, been given some meds, and the basic 'lying down, ankle on some pillows, peace of mind' type of setting.  Instead, though the waiting room seats were 'separated', she is sitting upright for hours on end with the possibility of getting exposed to the virus on top of the misery.

I broke my right ankle thirteen years ago.  Just needed to wear a boot.  I did EVERYTHING the doctor told me to do, and have had zero problems.  I do cringe whenever I see a football player crumple and see the replays for that type of injury.  Totally suxx.

Trivial....but we were going to host our Titan fans today in our garage for the game (all precautions to be followed, as there is plenty of space).  Our neighbors were still going to visit.  I just couldn't run the risk of possibly exposing them due to the prior day's events.   And, I hope the two of us will be fine as the day's progress.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on November 22, 2020, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: DragonAttack on November 22, 2020, 12:31:17 AM

The wife slipped on some slick and too-short-of-run new steps on a deck of our friends today.  Visible broken ankle.  I got her to Emergency at 202pm.  I went home at 4.  I went back to the hospital at 7.  Went back home at 8.

Each time I saw her for my allotted two minutes, she was not in an isolated room, but in the waiting area with 30-40 people, some who were just too sick or mentally off to keep their masks up.  She didn't have her own room, was not isolated, blah blah blah.

I got her home at 1 AM.  Up until 11pm she was in that waiting area.  Finally was taken back to get a cast.  The broken bone is protruding where the tongue of one's shoe is.  Pre Covid, she would have had the surgery and spent the night.  Now....she'll have surgery some time the week after T'giving.

What is unforgiveable....is allowing her to be exposed for all of those hours.  The ankle:  eff it, it'll heal or get fixed. 

The virus:  we are both petrified!  It's not right, and it's not fair.  Quite the hoax, ey? :censored

Goddamn! That fucking blows. That is some awful service. I don't even know what to say. I feel so bad for her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 23, 2020, 11:59:59 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 22, 2020, 02:53:14 PM

Goddamn! That fucking blows. That is some awful service. I don't even know what to say. I feel so bad for her.

The worst part is that she can't go anywhere, and is stuck with me 24/7 ;)

She's been bumped up, and will have surgery Friday, after I take her in for a physical and blood work tomorrow. :tdwn  Went out and purchased a wheel chair for $65.  So she is no longer stuck in 'isolation' in our guest bedroom. 

My best friend and his wife had two Olive Garden meals delivered.  We've had desserts and meals left at our front door by friends and neighbors.  There have been other kind acts offered for the future weeks.  That outpouring of kindness has overwhelmed us both.

(just wish that the Ravens weren't on C19 lockdown.....)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on November 23, 2020, 01:40:18 PM

So my wife, who works in the same field as I do, got this email this morning:



From: Oregon Health Authority <oha@service.govdelivery.com>
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 9:14 AM
Subject: Authorization Holders Compliance During Declared Emergency


Authorization Holders Compliance During Declared Emergency

The Health Licensing Office has filed a permanent Oregon Administrative Rule (OAR) that clarifies the expectations of all authorization holders (licensed, certified, or registered) regarding the COVID-19 crisis and the Governor of Oregon’s declared state of emergency. This permanent rule follows the temporary rule that took effect on May 15, 2020. The permanent rule language went into effect on November 20, 2020.

331-020-0079

Compliance with Executive Orders and Guidance Required

(1) During a Governor declared emergency, unprofessional conduct under ORS 676.612, includes, but is not limited to, failing to comply with any applicable provision of a Governor’s Executive Order or any provision of this rule.

(2) Failing to comply as described in subsection (1) includes, but is not limited to:

(a) Performing services or practicing an occupation or profession in a way that is contrary to an applicable Executive Order;

(b) Providing services at a business required by an Executive Order to be closed;

(c) Failing to comply with the requirements of Oregon Health Authority (Authority) guidance implementing an Executive Order.

(3) No disciplinary action or penalty action shall be taken under this rule if the Executive Order alleged to have been violated is not in effect at the time of the alleged violation.

(4) Penalties for violating this rule include, but are not limited to, suspension, revocation, probation, monetary penalties, and an assessment of costs of disciplinary proceedings not exceeding $5,000. Any such penalties shall be imposed in accordance with ORS Ch. 183.


Not sure how much I appreciate getting my job threatened by the state if even my personal life doesn't fully match up with the (seemingly) arbitrary numbers set forth by the Governor's executive order...  Work life, sure, but to revoke my license for potentially having seven people at my house instead of six seems like a bit of an overreach.  Or I'm just overreacting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 23, 2020, 08:58:04 PM

And your governor wants people to call the cops on anyone committing any violations, including having more than 6 people at your house. Hope they haven't defunded their police forces yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 23, 2020, 09:27:16 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 23, 2020, 08:58:04 PM

And your governor wants people to call the cops on anyone committing any violations, including having more than 6 people at your house. Hope they haven't defunded their police forces yet.

Our state wants to give $200,000 to "help our court system comply with public health orders"

Also, they want to give $10 million to our Department of Health for "Covid-19 testing, contract tracing, and roll out of vaccines."

Oh yeah, we got tested again, and the Department of Health had Computer troubles and we had a delay, they couldn't get us our Tests until it was resolved. I just laughed at that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on November 24, 2020, 05:45:33 AM

Quote from: Snow Dog on November 23, 2020, 01:40:18 PM

Or I'm just overreacting.

I don't know if you're overreacting, but I'm sure this was sent out, not so that they could get you, but to give them recourse in extremely stupid cases.

If I remember right, you work in the health sciences? Imagine if someone in your industry has a thanksgiving party of a couple dozen people. At the current infection rate it's statistically certain that 3 people at the party are infected in one way or another. It's also statistically certain that they will spread it to another 9 people at the event. They want to be able to say, "I warned you" to the party holder as they take away their license. A super spreader event held by a healthcare worker would inevitably make the press. The OHA is probably trying to head that off.

------------

On a personal note, I'm sick to my stomach over Thanksgiving. When I think of how COVID-19 will likely, tragically, effect entire family units. It won't give a shit whether one believes in it or not. Whether one is willing to take the risk or not. Whether one has always been tough or not. There will be too many Grandparents (and others) unnecessarily buried in January.

We've decided to not have anyone over, and order take-away from one of our favorite restaurants just to support them (I actually don't hold out much hope for their survival).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 06:17:01 AM

Getting really sick of all the middle aged and older white people who refuse to wear a mask. From now on if I see someone coming into my job's small office without a mask I'm stopping them and telling them to get one. We've had a sign up on the front door saying 'one customer in the office at a time' since April but it's literally just for show; at times there have been up to 5 other people in there along with me and the old man. And I'm not kidding, it's literally only older white people. I have never seen a Latinx or black person come into the shop without a mask or showing some concern for wearing one. Only old white people seem to refuse to do their part. Don't care if that offends someone, it's true, at least in my experience since March. What the fuck is wrong with these rubes? Oh, the cops don't give a shit either, they'll wear a mask but some of the higher ups come on down without one and hang out real close to all of us. So do the tool guys. So do the jobbers. So does everyone. It drives me insane. I'm honestly surprised I haven't had it yet, and I probably already got it and just don't have any symptoms. Thinking about getting tested every week starting sometime this week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on November 24, 2020, 06:44:46 AM

So I took a part time job at Whole Foods as an Amazon shopper to make a few extra bucks. Yesterday was the first solid day of Thanksgiving shopping that I worked, and based on the number of turkeys over 14lbs being purchased, either people are planning to have a shit ton of leftover turkey, or were fucked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on November 24, 2020, 07:08:26 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 06:17:01 AM

Getting really sick of all the middle aged and older white people who refuse to wear a mask. From now on if I see someone coming into my job's small office without a mask I'm stopping them and telling them to get one. We've had a sign up on the front door saying 'one customer in the office at a time' since April but it's literally just for show; at times there have been up to 5 other people in there along with me and the old man. And I'm not kidding, it's literally only older white people. I have never seen a Latinx or black person come into the shop without a mask or showing some concern for wearing one. Only old white people seem to refuse to do their part. Don't care if that offends someone, it's true, at least in my experience since March. What the fuck is wrong with these rubes?

My wife said the same thing months ago when she was grocery shopping and seeing only older white men either not wearing a mask, or wearing it incorrectly.  I see it too when I commute on the train, and an older white man will sit down across the car, then slide the mask down below his nose.  Don't you realize we're in an 8-foot wide, enclosed space with each other? 

Quote from: lonestar on November 24, 2020, 06:44:46 AM

So I took a part time job at Whole Foods as an Amazon shopper to make a few extra bucks. Yesterday was the first solid day of Thanksgiving shopping that I worked, and based on the number of turkeys over 14lbs being purchased, either people are planning to have a shit ton of leftover turkey, or were fucked.

We only invited my parents, so it's just my family of four, plus two.   We bought a turkey that was around 14 lbs., or maybe a little larger, so we can have leftovers, send some to my wife's dad, and send some home with my parents.  I can only hope that is what other families are doing, but I'm sure there will be plenty that decide to hold a big thanksgiving like usual.  We'll see how things fare in two weeks. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on November 24, 2020, 07:09:25 AM

My wife bought a 14 lb turkey for just the four of us.  She loves Thanksgiving and I could not talk her down from it.  We practically live on turkey and chicken anyway since we're both avoiding red meat, so it's a week's worth of leftovers for us.  Same as we've done every year for many years now.

Our daughter comes home from school tonight.  Yeah, I'm kinda scared.  Two planes and two airports.  But supposedly air travel is not the germ factory many assume it is.  The airlines have beefed up the filtration and circulation systems.  Also, we kinda don't have a choice.  The campus closes until January, and we're not going to make her stay at her apartment alone through the entire holiday season.  She's been living in Virginia this whole time and is COVID-free as far as we know, so unless she picks it up on the way here, she's not bringing it home with her.

Spinning the wheel...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 24, 2020, 07:30:07 AM

Given air traffic is the highest it's been since March, seems like a lot of people are squarely in the "fuck it" camp.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 07:50:15 AM

Quote from: Grappler on November 24, 2020, 07:08:26 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 06:17:01 AM

Getting really sick of all the middle aged and older white people who refuse to wear a mask. From now on if I see someone coming into my job's small office without a mask I'm stopping them and telling them to get one. We've had a sign up on the front door saying 'one customer in the office at a time' since April but it's literally just for show; at times there have been up to 5 other people in there along with me and the old man. And I'm not kidding, it's literally only older white people. I have never seen a Latinx or black person come into the shop without a mask or showing some concern for wearing one. Only old white people seem to refuse to do their part. Don't care if that offends someone, it's true, at least in my experience since March. What the fuck is wrong with these rubes?

My wife said the same thing months ago when she was grocery shopping and seeing only older white men either not wearing a mask, or wearing it incorrectly.  I see it too when I commute on the train, and an older white man will sit down across the car, then slide the mask down below his nose.  Don't you realize we're in an 8-foot wide, enclosed space with each other? 

Dude, there's an older friend of my dad's (I say friend, but he just annoys him more than anything) who constantly comes in here just to bullshit and waste time and expects me to pirate CDs for him which I've never done. He came in like 4 times last week with his mask hanging below his nose, and proceeds to say he's out and about 'cause his sister is back out of the hospital from COVID quarantining at his place. I think I posted about him earlier. Like WTF is wrong with these people!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I found myself in the hospital last Thursday after complications from a routine surgery the Monday before it. They are flooded with Covid patients right now. One of my nurses was telling me about a husband and wife who died there just a few days earlier. They were in their 70s, been married over 40 years, and they both caught it at a 120 person wedding they went to at the beginning of the month.   

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on November 24, 2020, 08:15:36 AM

I'm not sure why I just thought of this.  Probably because I'm getting old and feeble.

But I was thinking about families going to seeing Grandma and Grandpa for Thanksgiving and possibly giving them COVID.  Obviously that would be stupid and irresponsible.  But it's not the same for us, because this is our daughter.  Then I realized Holy shit, we're the old people that she's visiting and possibly giving COVID!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 24, 2020, 08:23:25 AM

Quote from: Orbert on November 24, 2020, 08:15:36 AM

I'm not sure why I just thought of this.  Probably because I'm getting old and feeble.

But I was thinking about families going to seeing Grandma and Grandpa for Thanksgiving and possibly giving them COVID.  Obviously that would be stupid and irresponsible.  But it's not the same for us, because this is our daughter.  Then I realized Holy shit, we're the old people that she's visiting and possibly giving COVID!

I posted before that I traveled home in the middle of March. Now, this was back when we thought travel was SO contagious, I was practically counting on catching it while waiting for my connecting flight on the airport. But when you have to go somewhere, you have to go. I think there's ways to be careful while still being in the same household - you hear of all these cases where someone was infected but their housemates were not. For the next 10-14 days, you guys can air your home, she can stay in a separate room, you can be at a distance from each other, have different meal times and she can also wear a mask indoors.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those.

That's the maddening thing about all of this. The 'non essential' industries like wedding venues are just going to have to either weather the storm or go extinct. There is no 'right' or guarantee that 'your' business has the right to survive. That was my complaint about the bailouts that our government handed (and hands) out. It's BS. you either survive or you don't.....History is wrought with companies/businesses that just didn't make it for whatever reason. Covid should be no different. Yes it sucks.....but....for the lack of a better phrase.....it is what it is.

IMO this is where our leadership from the top to the bottom across the board federally and locally has failed.  In my mind this pandemic should have been a simple thing for ALL leaders to have rallied the American public around.....the fact it was politicized is just sad. And thus, we're in a position as a country now where....for the lack of a better phrase....we're kind of getting what we deserve.

That's not to say that we truly 'deserve' it or that the people dying 'deserve' it.....it's an indictment on our leadership as a whole and how they've ALL failed us. None of them are innocent R or D because they've both used this pandemic for political gains/reasons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on November 24, 2020, 09:00:04 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 24, 2020, 08:23:25 AM

...you hear of all these cases where someone was infected but their housemates were not. For the next 10-14 days, you guys can air your home, she can stay in a separate room, you can be at a distance from each other, have different meal times and she can also wear a mask indoors.

This.  Get her tested as soon as she gets home.  While she is there, have her distance, and make sure you guys are hand washing constantly, keeping the place well ventilated, avoiding touching faces, and, even though it is inconvenient (to say the least), I would say to wear masks when in relatively close proximity until her results come back.  Even assuming the worst case that she is infected, the odds of transmission are still VERY much in your favor if you guys do those things, Orbert.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 24, 2020, 09:06:26 AM

It's very hard for me to reconcile the lack of common sense going on, mainly within my wife's family. Speaking personally, are family falls into the category of those who, shall we say, skew their views based on proselytization, and the backlash we are receiving for choosing our own safety over what they consider "family respect" is ridiculous. She is being treated as though she is divorcing her family, dragging them through the mud, and shitting on them simply by choosing safety over family gathering. I fully support her, and am proud of her strength in her own choices and the decisions for our family. And if one would make the argument that it's their choice to get together and they have to face their consequences, that's fine, but we deserve to have our decisions respected.

Vent over.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 24, 2020, 09:11:54 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those.

That's the maddening thing about all of this. The 'non essential' industries like wedding venues are just going to have to either weather the storm or go extinct. There is no 'right' or guarantee that 'your' business has the right to survive. That was my complaint about the bailouts that our government handed (and hands) out. It's BS. you either survive or you don't.....History is wrought with companies/businesses that just didn't make it for whatever reason. Covid should be no different. Yes it sucks.....but....for the lack of a better phrase.....it is what it is.

IMO this is where our leadership from the top to the bottom across the board federally and locally has failed.  In my mind this pandemic should have been a simple thing for ALL leaders to have rallied the American public around.....the fact it was politicized is just sad. And thus, we're in a position as a country now where....for the lack of a better phrase....we're kind of getting what we deserve.

That's not to say that we truly 'deserve' it or that the people dying 'deserve' it.....it's an indictment on our leadership as a whole and how they've ALL failed us. None of them are innocent R or D because they've both used this pandemic for political gains/reasons.

I know this is going to sound like picking nits, but where I struggle is not the industries.  You don't have to be a greedy capitalist pig to want to work and make your payroll.  It's the PEOPLE using them that are the problem.   Home Depot - or even a wedding facility - can stay open in degrees, safely.  But the people... why would you subject 120 people to your egomaniacal folly (i.e. a wedding) in this environment?    I'm not a big speculator, so I'm not going to presuppose if anyone said "take your masks off for the photos" or anything like that, but it's not beyond reasonable to think that happened.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 09:23:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 24, 2020, 09:11:54 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those.

That's the maddening thing about all of this. The 'non essential' industries like wedding venues are just going to have to either weather the storm or go extinct. There is no 'right' or guarantee that 'your' business has the right to survive. That was my complaint about the bailouts that our government handed (and hands) out. It's BS. you either survive or you don't.....History is wrought with companies/businesses that just didn't make it for whatever reason. Covid should be no different. Yes it sucks.....but....for the lack of a better phrase.....it is what it is.

IMO this is where our leadership from the top to the bottom across the board federally and locally has failed.  In my mind this pandemic should have been a simple thing for ALL leaders to have rallied the American public around.....the fact it was politicized is just sad. And thus, we're in a position as a country now where....for the lack of a better phrase....we're kind of getting what we deserve.

That's not to say that we truly 'deserve' it or that the people dying 'deserve' it.....it's an indictment on our leadership as a whole and how they've ALL failed us. None of them are innocent R or D because they've both used this pandemic for political gains/reasons.

I know this is going to sound like picking nits, but where I struggle is not the industries.  You don't have to be a greedy capitalist pig to want to work and make your payroll.  It's the PEOPLE using them that are the problem.   Home Depot - or even a wedding facility - can stay open in degrees, safely.  But the people... why would you subject 120 people to your egomaniacal folly (i.e. a wedding) in this environment?    I'm not a big speculator, so I'm not going to presuppose if anyone said "take your masks off for the photos" or anything like that, but it's not beyond reasonable to think that happened.

Very true. Just last week my wife and I told a neighbor that 'no'......we would not be going to Top Golf for her husbands surprise 40th birthday party, of which there were a good 30-40 invited....on top of just the crowd of people that would most likely be there.

I 'get' that 40 is a big deal and all....but we were just kind of baffled at the invitation? It's pretty obvious that across the nation people are 'done' with the whole thing even in the face of this virus not being anywhere close to being 'done' with us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 24, 2020, 09:29:44 AM

My wife's sister's birthday is Thanksgiving Day. She is taking it as a personal affront that we are not attending their gathering. Apparently, "We'd prefer to miss this birthday so we can be alive for future birthdays" is not sufficient reasoning to her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 09:31:23 AM

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 24, 2020, 09:29:44 AM

My wife's sister's birthday is Thanksgiving Day. She is taking it as a personal affront that we are not attending their gathering. Apparently, "We'd prefer to miss this birthday so we can be alive for future birthdays" is not sufficient reasoning to her.

Women, am I right?! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 24, 2020, 09:34:51 AM

Well my Dr friend had a mom yelling at him because HE ruined Thanksgiving by their son testing positive and his guidance was to not gather with anyone for Thanksgiving.   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 24, 2020, 09:37:49 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 09:23:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 24, 2020, 09:11:54 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those.

That's the maddening thing about all of this. The 'non essential' industries like wedding venues are just going to have to either weather the storm or go extinct. There is no 'right' or guarantee that 'your' business has the right to survive. That was my complaint about the bailouts that our government handed (and hands) out. It's BS. you either survive or you don't.....History is wrought with companies/businesses that just didn't make it for whatever reason. Covid should be no different. Yes it sucks.....but....for the lack of a better phrase.....it is what it is.

IMO this is where our leadership from the top to the bottom across the board federally and locally has failed.  In my mind this pandemic should have been a simple thing for ALL leaders to have rallied the American public around.....the fact it was politicized is just sad. And thus, we're in a position as a country now where....for the lack of a better phrase....we're kind of getting what we deserve.

That's not to say that we truly 'deserve' it or that the people dying 'deserve' it.....it's an indictment on our leadership as a whole and how they've ALL failed us. None of them are innocent R or D because they've both used this pandemic for political gains/reasons.

I know this is going to sound like picking nits, but where I struggle is not the industries.  You don't have to be a greedy capitalist pig to want to work and make your payroll.  It's the PEOPLE using them that are the problem.   Home Depot - or even a wedding facility - can stay open in degrees, safely.  But the people... why would you subject 120 people to your egomaniacal folly (i.e. a wedding) in this environment?    I'm not a big speculator, so I'm not going to presuppose if anyone said "take your masks off for the photos" or anything like that, but it's not beyond reasonable to think that happened.

Very true. Just last week my wife and I told a neighbor that 'no'......we would not be going to Top Golf for her husbands surprise 40th birthday party, of which there were a good 30-40 invited....on top of just the crowd of people that would most likely be there.

I 'get' that 40 is a big deal and all....but we were just kind of baffled at the invitation? It's pretty obvious that across the nation people are 'done' with the whole thing even in the face of this virus not being anywhere close to being 'done' with us.

Just want to point out that I wasn't referring to business owners who are worried about going under as "assholes". I was referring more to the general population who are do nothing to even attempt to slow down the spread... people like this:

People in Florida 3 days ago:
(https://www.sun-sentinel.com/resizer/St9Jo8eLpuRQAzzN5TKBIWbKTUM=/800x800/top/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tronc/S43LHVVM5JGXBL3OWQ272YWZWA.jpg)



Then there are the people like this, who joyously take pride in their selfishness and stupidity:
https://old.reddit.com/r/iamatotalpieceofshit/comments/k036ld/this_is_what_makes_americans_look_like_idiots/



 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 09:40:07 AM

Man Thanksgiving is one of the lamest holidays anyway. People getting mad about it makes me laugh  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:06:34 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those.

That's the maddening thing about all of this. The 'non essential' industries like wedding venues are just going to have to either weather the storm or go extinct. There is no 'right' or guarantee that 'your' business has the right to survive. That was my complaint about the bailouts that our government handed (and hands) out. It's BS. you either survive or you don't.....History is wrought with companies/businesses that just didn't make it for whatever reason. Covid should be no different. Yes it sucks.....but....for the lack of a better phrase.....it is what it is.

IMO this is where our leadership from the top to the bottom across the board federally and locally has failed.  In my mind this pandemic should have been a simple thing for ALL leaders to have rallied the American public around.....the fact it was politicized is just sad. And thus, we're in a position as a country now where....for the lack of a better phrase....we're kind of getting what we deserve.

That's not to say that we truly 'deserve' it or that the people dying 'deserve' it.....it's an indictment on our leadership as a whole and how they've ALL failed us. None of them are innocent R or D because they've both used this pandemic for political gains/reasons.

:clap:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 24, 2020, 10:08:27 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I found myself in the hospital last Thursday after complications from a routine surgery the Monday before it. They are flooded with Covid patients right now. One of my nurses was telling me about a husband and wife who died there just a few days earlier. They were in their 70s, been married over 40 years, and they both caught it at a 120 person wedding they went to at the beginning of the month.   

Boy, ain't that gonna be a happy anniversary for the couple from now until the end of their own time!  #shakemygoddamnedhead

mrs.jingle turns 50 in Feb.  It'll be a home-cooked dinner for four that night.  Nothing extraordinary, not going anywhere, not doing anything ... which is kind of a shame, but as Drew said, we'd very much like to have 40 more birthdays to enjoy, see our kids into adulthead, maybe some grandkids etc...  We can postpone one "special number' b-day celebration in order to not put any of that at risk.

To steal and repeat this from GD chat:

Quote from: wolfking on November 24, 2020, 04:07:15 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 20, 2020, 11:23:39 AM

I hate people.  I really do.

Quoted this because it needs to be repeated, over and over again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 24, 2020, 10:10:09 AM

Just out of curiosity though, what democrats have been posting messages to their citizens like: 

(https://i.insider.com/5fbaba9432f2170011f70886?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp)

... as his state is calling in the national guard to handle the overflow of corpses from the morgues

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:15:02 AM

Quote from: Orbert on November 24, 2020, 08:15:36 AM

I'm not sure why I just thought of this.  Probably because I'm getting old and feeble.

But I was thinking about families going to seeing Grandma and Grandpa for Thanksgiving and possibly giving them COVID.  Obviously that would be stupid and irresponsible.  But it's not the same for us, because this is our daughter.  Then I realized Holy shit, we're the old people that she's visiting and possibly giving COVID!

Yes, So how do you feel about not having your daughter over, for fear, that YOU may catch it? And what are you doing to not catch it?



Did anyone bother asking those Old people you guys are concerned about these types of questions? I sure would have, and asked them straight up, Are you afraid of dying, right now? If so and if not, why so? And you'll find out it's all personal. And it's all their own Personal Risk they are taking when they walk out that door. Our chances of dying increase with age, and don't get better, unless we as young adults, don't do the things that will make our bodies increase those odds.

That's why I applaud Gmillers post about "We're getting what we deserved" Because that is a damn true statement. And a hard one to take. Because look at our food and look at our health, what caused us to have our odds of death increase to high numbers?

Instead of worrying about that old man, Why not ask him, how he feels about this. Obviously, he doesn't care about dying as he should know those odds of him dying are high. But he needs to live, he needs to eat, he needs to shit, he needs his meds to continue risking his life.


Out of respect, I wear my mask while I am out. But, if you are high risk, and are out and about when you shouldn't be if you are worried about dying from covid, I am going to assume you understand those odds when you walk out that door.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 24, 2020, 10:18:58 AM

I'd hazard a guess that the last words out of the old couple Chino referenced were not "that wedding sure was worth dying for".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 24, 2020, 10:34:02 AM

I follow our County's FB page and the following was posted by a lady (posted last week):

I kicked COVIDS ass....almost. Spoiler...This post is meant to scare you.   Just because your husband, or friend, or coworker had mild symptoms does not mean that will be your fate! My first update I knew I was dealing with a virus 7-10 days, I got this, no biggie. Week two my fevers started getting higher, the aches and pains and chills were awful. I felt like I was suffocating just laying in bed. I stopped eating, still pushed fluids as much as possible. I ended up in the ER twice this past week from lethargy and extreme weakness. The protocol was always the same. My heartbeat was erratic, and breathing was fast and painful so they would push fluids, steroids, pain meds, through an IV, run an EKG and of course X-rays. I’m FINALLY feeling better, fever free for a full 24 hours. I still feel like I’m suffocating, I take a steroid before i even attempt to get up, and I also carry a rescue inhaler. My physician said to allow for up to a month of complete recovery, but THANK GOD I should not see any lasting effects. My X-rays look good. I’ve cried more than I ever have in my life just for the simple fact your independence is snatched completely from you. I missed my first born nephews wedding today. I asked the ER why they wouldn’t keep me and their reply was we have 25 more COVID patients with your symptoms that need this bed after you. Stay safe, it’s going to be a long winter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:36:07 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 09:23:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 24, 2020, 09:11:54 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those.

That's the maddening thing about all of this. The 'non essential' industries like wedding venues are just going to have to either weather the storm or go extinct. There is no 'right' or guarantee that 'your' business has the right to survive. That was my complaint about the bailouts that our government handed (and hands) out. It's BS. you either survive or you don't.....History is wrought with companies/businesses that just didn't make it for whatever reason. Covid should be no different. Yes it sucks.....but....for the lack of a better phrase.....it is what it is.

IMO this is where our leadership from the top to the bottom across the board federally and locally has failed.  In my mind this pandemic should have been a simple thing for ALL leaders to have rallied the American public around.....the fact it was politicized is just sad. And thus, we're in a position as a country now where....for the lack of a better phrase....we're kind of getting what we deserve.

That's not to say that we truly 'deserve' it or that the people dying 'deserve' it.....it's an indictment on our leadership as a whole and how they've ALL failed us. None of them are innocent R or D because they've both used this pandemic for political gains/reasons.

I know this is going to sound like picking nits, but where I struggle is not the industries.  You don't have to be a greedy capitalist pig to want to work and make your payroll.  It's the PEOPLE using them that are the problem.   Home Depot - or even a wedding facility - can stay open in degrees, safely.  But the people... why would you subject 120 people to your egomaniacal folly (i.e. a wedding) in this environment?    I'm not a big speculator, so I'm not going to presuppose if anyone said "take your masks off for the photos" or anything like that, but it's not beyond reasonable to think that happened.

Very true. Just last week my wife and I told a neighbor that 'no'......we would not be going to Top Golf for her husbands surprise 40th birthday party, of which there were a good 30-40 invited....on top of just the crowd of people that would most likely be there.

I 'get' that 40 is a big deal and all....but we were just kind of baffled at the invitation? It's pretty obvious that across the nation people are 'done' with the whole thing even in the face of this virus not being anywhere close to being 'done' with us.

If no one goes, they should get the hint. And if they don't, then send them an invitation to your "online zoom meeting unfriending party" for them.  :biggrin:

I don't find that baffling,  I would just be, "these guys are nuts, but I'm not going to that."

I just feel people are making a big deal about simple things like your example, because of FEAR. When all you have to do is "I am not doing that, you nuts", and hope they snap, and if not, then don't bother with them until the pandemic passes. If they unfriend you, then so be it. At least you are showing, you still wanted to keep that friendship. That's how you make it not about you, but about them, and hold true to your standards. Maybe, it's actually, letting it weed itself out. Self-sowing all the negative people and energy you don't need in your life.

I understand we are all worried about this Virus. But, why should I be worried, if I am not likely going to die. The ones who should be rightfully worried are those that will die from it. Those are the people we should be listening to. What is scary, is how unhealthy we have become due to our own self-indulgence of processed foods, due to our urgent/instant sense of lifestyle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:42:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 24, 2020, 09:34:51 AM

Well my Dr friend had a mom yelling at him because HE ruined Thanksgiving by their son testing positive and his guidance was to not gather with anyone for Thanksgiving.   :facepalm:

You like almost have to tell them in a different way. Something like "Do you have any family members with any of these health problems?", then list those that are vulnerable to the virus, and then if they respond with "Yes" and begin listing the family members that have those conditions, respond with "If you want to spend any time with them this Christmas, I would highly suggest, you keep little donny boy here at home."

These people need those hard truths told to them to understand, and comprehend, what is being told to them. Even at that, they won't grasp that. It's sad actually, that these people can't comprehend this. Why, can't they comprehend it, you know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:46:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 09:37:49 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 09:23:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 24, 2020, 09:11:54 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on November 24, 2020, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 07:52:28 AM

I get the economy and all that, and I'm certain we can keep a lot of it running at near-full capacity if people would just stop being selfish assholes, but there are certain industries that are just too risky to allow operating as they do, IMO. Wedding venues is one of those.

That's the maddening thing about all of this. The 'non essential' industries like wedding venues are just going to have to either weather the storm or go extinct. There is no 'right' or guarantee that 'your' business has the right to survive. That was my complaint about the bailouts that our government handed (and hands) out. It's BS. you either survive or you don't.....History is wrought with companies/businesses that just didn't make it for whatever reason. Covid should be no different. Yes it sucks.....but....for the lack of a better phrase.....it is what it is.

IMO this is where our leadership from the top to the bottom across the board federally and locally has failed.  In my mind this pandemic should have been a simple thing for ALL leaders to have rallied the American public around.....the fact it was politicized is just sad. And thus, we're in a position as a country now where....for the lack of a better phrase....we're kind of getting what we deserve.

That's not to say that we truly 'deserve' it or that the people dying 'deserve' it.....it's an indictment on our leadership as a whole and how they've ALL failed us. None of them are innocent R or D because they've both used this pandemic for political gains/reasons.

I know this is going to sound like picking nits, but where I struggle is not the industries.  You don't have to be a greedy capitalist pig to want to work and make your payroll.  It's the PEOPLE using them that are the problem.   Home Depot - or even a wedding facility - can stay open in degrees, safely.  But the people... why would you subject 120 people to your egomaniacal folly (i.e. a wedding) in this environment?    I'm not a big speculator, so I'm not going to presuppose if anyone said "take your masks off for the photos" or anything like that, but it's not beyond reasonable to think that happened.

Very true. Just last week my wife and I told a neighbor that 'no'......we would not be going to Top Golf for her husbands surprise 40th birthday party, of which there were a good 30-40 invited....on top of just the crowd of people that would most likely be there.

I 'get' that 40 is a big deal and all....but we were just kind of baffled at the invitation? It's pretty obvious that across the nation people are 'done' with the whole thing even in the face of this virus not being anywhere close to being 'done' with us.

Just want to point out that I wasn't referring to business owners who are worried about going under as "assholes". I was referring more to the general population who are do nothing to even attempt to slow down the spread... people like this:

People in Florida 3 days ago:
(https://www.sun-sentinel.com/resizer/St9Jo8eLpuRQAzzN5TKBIWbKTUM=/800x800/top/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tronc/S43LHVVM5JGXBL3OWQ272YWZWA.jpg)



Then there are the people like this, who joyously take pride in their selfishness and stupidity:
https://old.reddit.com/r/iamatotalpieceofshit/comments/k036ld/this_is_what_makes_americans_look_like_idiots/

Collectively, people are selfish and stupid, unaware of what they are doing in/to Nature. That's fact.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 10:47:29 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:36:07 AM

I understand we are all worried about this Virus. But, why should I be worried, if I am not likely going to die. The ones who should be rightfully worried are those that will die from it. Those are the people we should be listening to. What is scary, is how unhealthy we have become due to our own self-indulgence of processed foods, due to our urgent/instant sense of lifestyle.

You answered your own question, my guy. Focusing on unhealthy diets should be a general concern but it shouldn't be your core focus of this pandemic. You should be concerned about being asymptomatic unbeknownst to you and giving it to one of those people that could die from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:54:57 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 24, 2020, 10:34:02 AM

I follow our County's FB page and the following was posted by a lady (posted last week):

I kicked COVIDS ass....almost. Spoiler...This post is meant to scare you.   Just because your husband, or friend, or coworker had mild symptoms does not mean that will be your fate! My first update I knew I was dealing with a virus 7-10 days, I got this, no biggie. Week two my fevers started getting higher, the aches and pains and chills were awful. I felt like I was suffocating just laying in bed. I stopped eating, still pushed fluids as much as possible. I ended up in the ER twice this past week from lethargy and extreme weakness. The protocol was always the same. My heartbeat was erratic, and breathing was fast and painful so they would push fluids, steroids, pain meds, through an IV, run an EKG and of course X-rays. I’m FINALLY feeling better, fever free for a full 24 hours. I still feel like I’m suffocating, I take a steroid before i even attempt to get up, and I also carry a rescue inhaler. My physician said to allow for up to a month of complete recovery, but THANK GOD I should not see any lasting effects. My X-rays look good. I’ve cried more than I ever have in my life just for the simple fact your independence is snatched completely from you. I missed my first born nephews wedding today. I asked the ER why they wouldn’t keep me and their reply was we have 25 more COVID patients with your symptoms that need this bed after you. Stay safe, it’s going to be a long winter.

To the bolded: Yes, exactly why this is personal. If you know your body, you should know where you may stand if you were to get these symptoms, and should know those that do get those symptoms are pretty bad in health. So, if you do get those symptoms, you probably are in that bad of health, but don't know it, because you haven't went to the doctors for an annual check up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 24, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:54:57 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 24, 2020, 10:34:02 AM

I follow our County's FB page and the following was posted by a lady (posted last week):

I kicked COVIDS ass....almost. Spoiler...This post is meant to scare you.   Just because your husband, or friend, or coworker had mild symptoms does not mean that will be your fate! My first update I knew I was dealing with a virus 7-10 days, I got this, no biggie. Week two my fevers started getting higher, the aches and pains and chills were awful. I felt like I was suffocating just laying in bed. I stopped eating, still pushed fluids as much as possible. I ended up in the ER twice this past week from lethargy and extreme weakness. The protocol was always the same. My heartbeat was erratic, and breathing was fast and painful so they would push fluids, steroids, pain meds, through an IV, run an EKG and of course X-rays. I’m FINALLY feeling better, fever free for a full 24 hours. I still feel like I’m suffocating, I take a steroid before i even attempt to get up, and I also carry a rescue inhaler. My physician said to allow for up to a month of complete recovery, but THANK GOD I should not see any lasting effects. My X-rays look good. I’ve cried more than I ever have in my life just for the simple fact your independence is snatched completely from you. I missed my first born nephews wedding today. I asked the ER why they wouldn’t keep me and their reply was we have 25 more COVID patients with your symptoms that need this bed after you. Stay safe, it’s going to be a long winter.

To the bolded: Yes, exactly why this is personal. If you know your body, you should know where you may stand if you were to get these symptoms, and should know those that do get those symptoms are pretty bad in health. So, if you do get those symptoms, you probably are in that bad of health, but don't know it, because you haven't went to the doctors for an annual check up.

It didn't kill Donald Trump or Chirs Christie, yet it's killed otherwise 100% healthy teenagers. You could "know your body" all you want, but it's clear that doesn't mean dick, unless I'm wrong and somehow missing Trump and Christie's bodies as being the pinnacle of human health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 11:03:22 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 24, 2020, 10:47:29 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:36:07 AM

I understand we are all worried about this Virus. But, why should I be worried, if I am not likely going to die. The ones who should be rightfully worried are those that will die from it. Those are the people we should be listening to. What is scary, is how unhealthy we have become due to our own self-indulgence of processed foods, due to our urgent/instant sense of lifestyle.

You answered your own question, my guy. Focusing on unhealthy diets should be a general concern but it shouldn't be your core focus of this pandemic. You should be concerned about being asymptomatic unbeknownst to you and giving it to one of those people that could die from it.

Yeah, stay away from me. I may pass it on to you. But, why are you here in front of me, if you are so worried about me passing it onto you. Shouldn't you be in a bubble?  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on November 24, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 24, 2020, 10:18:58 AM

I'd hazard a guess that the last words out of the old couple Chino referenced were not "that wedding sure was worth dying for".

Technically, you are probably right.  But at the same time, I think the way you framed it is probably completely wrong.  Yeah, in retrospect, I'm sure most people probably wouldn't say "[specific event] was worth dying for."  But there are a good many people out there who do responsibly make their own risk assessment, realizing that as long as they take certain precautions, the odds are still overwhelmingly in their favor, but that there is still an inherent risk, and choose to prioritize living their lives with a certain level of social interaction over living their lives in isolation.  There are far too many variables in that equation to assume you know what somebody is thinking, and to be able to cast valid judgment on their decisions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 24, 2020, 11:39:56 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 24, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 24, 2020, 10:18:58 AM

I'd hazard a guess that the last words out of the old couple Chino referenced were not "that wedding sure was worth dying for".

Technically, you are probably right.  But at the same time, I think the way you framed it is probably completely wrong.  Yeah, in retrospect, I'm sure most people probably wouldn't say "[specific event] was worth dying for."  But there are a good many people out there who do responsibly make their own risk assessment, realizing that as long as they take certain precautions, the odds are still overwhelmingly in their favor, but that there is still an inherent risk, and choose to prioritize living their lives with a certain level of social interaction over living their lives in isolation.  There are far too many variables in that equation to assume you know what somebody is thinking, and to be able to cast valid judgment on their decisions.

I agree but can I trust the others to do so.  That is where I see the real danger.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 24, 2020, 07:35:32 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:54:57 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 24, 2020, 10:34:02 AM

I follow our County's FB page and the following was posted by a lady (posted last week):

I kicked COVIDS ass....almost. Spoiler...This post is meant to scare you.   Just because your husband, or friend, or coworker had mild symptoms does not mean that will be your fate! My first update I knew I was dealing with a virus 7-10 days, I got this, no biggie. Week two my fevers started getting higher, the aches and pains and chills were awful. I felt like I was suffocating just laying in bed. I stopped eating, still pushed fluids as much as possible. I ended up in the ER twice this past week from lethargy and extreme weakness. The protocol was always the same. My heartbeat was erratic, and breathing was fast and painful so they would push fluids, steroids, pain meds, through an IV, run an EKG and of course X-rays. I’m FINALLY feeling better, fever free for a full 24 hours. I still feel like I’m suffocating, I take a steroid before i even attempt to get up, and I also carry a rescue inhaler. My physician said to allow for up to a month of complete recovery, but THANK GOD I should not see any lasting effects. My X-rays look good. I’ve cried more than I ever have in my life just for the simple fact your independence is snatched completely from you. I missed my first born nephews wedding today. I asked the ER why they wouldn’t keep me and their reply was we have 25 more COVID patients with your symptoms that need this bed after you. Stay safe, it’s going to be a long winter.

To the bolded: Yes, exactly why this is personal. If you know your body, you should know where you may stand if you were to get these symptoms, and should know those that do get those symptoms are pretty bad in health. So, if you do get those symptoms, you probably are in that bad of health, but don't know it, because you haven't went to the doctors for an annual check up.

It didn't kill Donald Trump or Chirs Christie, yet it's killed otherwise 100% healthy teenagers. You could "know your body" all you want, but it's clear that doesn't mean dick, unless I'm wrong and somehow missing Trump and Christie's bodies as being the pinnacle of human health.

Trump and Christie have access to significantly better access to top health care.  Christie also had it bad from my understand (I still am not sure how bad Trump's was).   I do wonder if those teens were 100% healthy. It's possible, but VERY rare for young 100% healthy people to die.  However, it doesn't change the fact that this virus effects people differently and that it is possible to die from this regardless of what you think your personal health is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 24, 2020, 08:05:58 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 24, 2020, 11:30:02 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 24, 2020, 10:18:58 AM

I'd hazard a guess that the last words out of the old couple Chino referenced were not "that wedding sure was worth dying for".

Technically, you are probably right.  But at the same time, I think the way you framed it is probably completely wrong.  Yeah, in retrospect, I'm sure most people probably wouldn't say "[specific event] was worth dying for."  But there are a good many people out there who do responsibly make their own risk assessment, realizing that as long as they take certain precautions, the odds are still overwhelmingly in their favor, but that there is still an inherent risk, and choose to prioritize living their lives with a certain level of social interaction over living their lives in isolation.  There are far too many variables in that equation to assume you know what somebody is thinking, and to be able to cast valid judgment on their decisions.

To some degree, I can see where you're coming from.  Like, if I get t-boned on the way to pick up groceries, that's hardly worth dying for.  But in a global pandemic that has an incredibly higher rate of mortality for the elderly, to put oneself in such a high risk situation reeks of 'non-believer' ... imo.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 09:57:03 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:54:57 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 24, 2020, 10:34:02 AM

I follow our County's FB page and the following was posted by a lady (posted last week):

I kicked COVIDS ass....almost. Spoiler...This post is meant to scare you.   Just because your husband, or friend, or coworker had mild symptoms does not mean that will be your fate! My first update I knew I was dealing with a virus 7-10 days, I got this, no biggie. Week two my fevers started getting higher, the aches and pains and chills were awful. I felt like I was suffocating just laying in bed. I stopped eating, still pushed fluids as much as possible. I ended up in the ER twice this past week from lethargy and extreme weakness. The protocol was always the same. My heartbeat was erratic, and breathing was fast and painful so they would push fluids, steroids, pain meds, through an IV, run an EKG and of course X-rays. I’m FINALLY feeling better, fever free for a full 24 hours. I still feel like I’m suffocating, I take a steroid before i even attempt to get up, and I also carry a rescue inhaler. My physician said to allow for up to a month of complete recovery, but THANK GOD I should not see any lasting effects. My X-rays look good. I’ve cried more than I ever have in my life just for the simple fact your independence is snatched completely from you. I missed my first born nephews wedding today. I asked the ER why they wouldn’t keep me and their reply was we have 25 more COVID patients with your symptoms that need this bed after you. Stay safe, it’s going to be a long winter.

To the bolded: Yes, exactly why this is personal. If you know your body, you should know where you may stand if you were to get these symptoms, and should know those that do get those symptoms are pretty bad in health. So, if you do get those symptoms, you probably are in that bad of health, but don't know it, because you haven't went to the doctors for an annual check up.

It didn't kill Donald Trump or Chirs Christie, yet it's killed otherwise 100% healthy teenagers. You could "know your body" all you want, but it's clear that doesn't mean dick, unless I'm wrong and somehow missing Trump and Christie's bodies as being the pinnacle of human health.

Is anyone, really 100% healthy?

And who the hell mentioned Trump or Christie? You brought them up yourself.

I haven't gone to the doctors, but I know darn well, I likely have some sort of health problem, with the way I have been drinking and smoking. Yet, here I am, still going out to live my life, as much as possible, and doing my best to stay away from Old People. But it's hard when those old people are out there, So If I can get it and am in no worry, I am sure they aren't. I am for damned sure, more unhealthy and more susceptible to getting it, than most of you are. Most of you, i'm sure have nothing to worry about. Unless, you do have something you are unaware about...Which I am sure I do.

In other words. To me, I feel it's too complicated and too personal of a virus, to be blaming people for not doing what the health people suggest should be done. It's not like it's smallpox, now that is scary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 25, 2020, 06:41:12 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 09:57:03 PM

Quote from: Chino on November 24, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 24, 2020, 10:54:57 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 24, 2020, 10:34:02 AM

I follow our County's FB page and the following was posted by a lady (posted last week):

I kicked COVIDS ass....almost. Spoiler...This post is meant to scare you.   Just because your husband, or friend, or coworker had mild symptoms does not mean that will be your fate! My first update I knew I was dealing with a virus 7-10 days, I got this, no biggie. Week two my fevers started getting higher, the aches and pains and chills were awful. I felt like I was suffocating just laying in bed. I stopped eating, still pushed fluids as much as possible. I ended up in the ER twice this past week from lethargy and extreme weakness. The protocol was always the same. My heartbeat was erratic, and breathing was fast and painful so they would push fluids, steroids, pain meds, through an IV, run an EKG and of course X-rays. I’m FINALLY feeling better, fever free for a full 24 hours. I still feel like I’m suffocating, I take a steroid before i even attempt to get up, and I also carry a rescue inhaler. My physician said to allow for up to a month of complete recovery, but THANK GOD I should not see any lasting effects. My X-rays look good. I’ve cried more than I ever have in my life just for the simple fact your independence is snatched completely from you. I missed my first born nephews wedding today. I asked the ER why they wouldn’t keep me and their reply was we have 25 more COVID patients with your symptoms that need this bed after you. Stay safe, it’s going to be a long winter.

To the bolded: Yes, exactly why this is personal. If you know your body, you should know where you may stand if you were to get these symptoms, and should know those that do get those symptoms are pretty bad in health. So, if you do get those symptoms, you probably are in that bad of health, but don't know it, because you haven't went to the doctors for an annual check up.

It didn't kill Donald Trump or Chirs Christie, yet it's killed otherwise 100% healthy teenagers. You could "know your body" all you want, but it's clear that doesn't mean dick, unless I'm wrong and somehow missing Trump and Christie's bodies as being the pinnacle of human health.

Is anyone, really 100% healthy?

And who the hell mentioned Trump or Christie? You brought them up yourself.

I haven't gone to the doctors, but I know darn well, I likely have some sort of health problem, with the way I have been drinking and smoking. Yet, here I am, still going out to live my life, as much as possible, and doing my best to stay away from Old People. But it's hard when those old people are out there, So If I can get it and am in no worry, I am sure they aren't. I am for damned sure, more unhealthy and more susceptible to getting it, than most of you are. Most of you, i'm sure have nothing to worry about. Unless, you do have something you are unaware about...Which I am sure I do.

In other words. To me, I feel it's too complicated and too personal of a virus, to be blaming people for not doing what the health people suggest should be done. It's not like it's smallpox, now that is scary.

No offense but how you "feel" is irrelevant.  What's relevant are the facts.  And the facts are:


1. we have cured smallpox, so your comparison is, frankly, absurd.
2. Anyone who isn't doing what the health officials and doctors are saying is the best way(s) to prevent the spread of this thing are part of the problem.


Those are unmitigated facts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 07:45:23 AM

Well hold on now. If that's all it takes - "follow what the people up top say" and you aren't part of the problem - then people who weren't wearing masks early on were doing a good thing, because Fauci first said you didn't need masks before backtracking and saying the exact opposite. Not because of a concern for individuals' health, but so that hospitals wouldn't lose out on mask supplies, which I think was a shitty thing to say and do because it undermined public trust in health officials. So I don't think that is, respectfully, a be-all-end-all argument. Unmitigated? I don't think so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 25, 2020, 07:53:51 AM

Do you think he was influenced by the elected officials to make those statements at the time?  Or that the more they learned they adjusted?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on November 25, 2020, 07:55:05 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 07:45:23 AM

Well hold on now. If that's all it takes - "follow what the people up top say" and you aren't part of the problem - then people who weren't wearing masks early on were doing a good thing, because Fauci first said you didn't need masks before backtracking and saying the exact opposite. Not because of a concern for individuals' health, but so that hospitals wouldn't lose out on mask supplies, which I think was a shitty thing to say and do because it undermined public trust in health officials. So I don't think that is, respectfully, a be-all-end-all argument. Unmitigated? I don't think so.

Not saying you're right or wrong, and I guess it could still be open to interpretation, but here are Facui's words on the matter:

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-doesnt-regret-advising-against-masks-early-in-pandemic-2020-7

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 07:56:01 AM

I've seen that. But my point still remains - what he did was not a good look and it really did convince a lot of rubes out there that everyone's lying to them. And by KNH's logic, not wearing a mask early on should've been lauded, where now it isn't. So just blindly following what people tell you isn't always the best thing to do to avoid 'being part of the problem.' Use your noggin.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 25, 2020, 08:30:57 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on November 24, 2020, 07:35:32 PM

However, it doesn't change the fact that this virus effects people differently and that it is possible to die from this regardless of what you think your personal health is.

Yup, and even if that were 100% the case (if you're young and healthy this will be like the flu), the list of conditions that put you in the "should watch out" category is very extensive. Diabetes, weight issues, asthma, had pneumonia recently, cardiovascular problems of any kind... I think at least a third of people I know are in one or more of these categories.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 08:48:18 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 07:56:01 AM

Use your noggin.

Lots of folks out there not doing that, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 08:48:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 08:48:18 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 07:56:01 AM

Use your noggin.

Lots of folks out there not doing that, unfortunately.

In a better mood today?  :lol :lol I'M JOKING!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 08:51:01 AM

Also in Italy the first indications were "masks are useful only for those who are ill, no need to wear them".

So it's not that Fauci made a personal decision, it was the worldwide consensus of the scientific community at the time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 25, 2020, 08:55:54 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 08:51:01 AM

Also in Italy the first indications were "masks are useful only for those who are ill, no need to wear them".

So it's not that Fauci made a personal decision, it was the worldwide consensus of the scientific community at the time.

And some doctors say this and others say another thing. SO who do you trust?

Also, genes affect us differently, its why we as a people are not the same, our genes are affecting how we are susceptible to this virus. I should actually be more worried than you guys.

Also, it's funny watching people freak out over a lockdown, yet we Tribes are doing this regardless. You have Members who are living outside not allowed to come home, and visit. That's an entirely different aspect to this virus, that is affecting them, they may feel like they are being shut out and not included. I still wonder how Africa is faring with this virus?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on November 25, 2020, 08:56:01 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 08:51:01 AM

Also in Italy the first indications were "masks are useful only for those who are ill, no need to wear them".

So it's not that Fauci made a personal decision, it was the worldwide consensus of the scientific community at the time.

Well I don’t think that’s what Fauci was saying. I think he was saying that, until more are mass produced, it’s a higher priority to get certain people masks and if everyone rushed out and got them, you’d have healthcare workers and so forth without. I don’t see that as a problem. Sometimes we make tough decisions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 09:06:17 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 25, 2020, 08:55:54 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 08:51:01 AM

Also in Italy the first indications were "masks are useful only for those who are ill, no need to wear them".

So it's not that Fauci made a personal decision, it was the worldwide consensus of the scientific community at the time.

And some doctors say this and others say another thing. SO who do you trust?

I trust those who apply the scientific method and study things and analyze things and, when faced with new discoveries, facts or data, are not afraid to change their opinion or admit they were wrong / not exactly right before.

For opinions that never change no matter what, there are religions and conspiracy theories. I accept that scientists might get something wrong at first and then realize their mistakes through studies, analysis and tests.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 09:08:23 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 09:06:17 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 25, 2020, 08:55:54 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 08:51:01 AM

Also in Italy the first indications were "masks are useful only for those who are ill, no need to wear them".

So it's not that Fauci made a personal decision, it was the worldwide consensus of the scientific community at the time.

And some doctors say this and others say another thing. SO who do you trust?

I trust those who apply the scientific method and study things and analyze things and, when faced with new discoveries, facts or data, are not afraid to change their opinion or admit they were wrong / not exactly right before.

For opinions that never change no matter what, there are religions and conspiracy theories. I accept that scientists might get something wrong at first and then realize their mistakes through studies, analysis and tests.

I also agree with this. I also think it's stupid to tell people to wear masks and then say you don't need them (when the real reason is not that you don't need them, but because of a feared - not necessarily even real - supply issue, obfuscating the actual motive behind the statement), when we're talking about a flu-like virus that gets spread through respiratory droplets. It was a dumb thing to say, it created unnecessary distrust and confusion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 09:31:03 AM

I feel fortunate to have a couple of doctors as good friends that I talk to regularly.  I feel like I have gotten pretty good access to information throughout the process to have a good handle on how to manage the risks of this thing.  For those who want to know, the information is definitely out there and accessible.  It's just a shame that there is so much misinformation out there as well.  I can't tell you how many social media posts I have seen from friends and family that are SO far off base, either in one direction or the other, simply because they see or hear something out there, and just think it is true without vetting it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 09:34:27 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 09:31:03 AM

I can't tell you how many social media posts I have seen from friends and family that are SO far off base, either in one direction or the other, simply because they see or hear something out there, and just think it is true without vetting it.

Welcome to the current age of social media, where everyone's opinion is worth the same.

(Spoiler: no, it isn't).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 25, 2020, 09:37:29 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 09:34:27 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 09:31:03 AM

I can't tell you how many social media posts I have seen from friends and family that are SO far off base, either in one direction or the other, simply because they see or hear something out there, and just think it is true without vetting it.

Welcome to the current age of social media, where everyone's opinion is worth the same.

(Spoiler: no, it isn't).

Everyone's opinion IS worth the same. Just not when you're advocating for things that are provably false. That isn't an opinion, it's misinformation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on November 25, 2020, 09:41:36 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 09:31:03 AM

I feel fortunate to have a couple of doctors as good friends that I talk to regularly.  I feel like I have gotten pretty good access to information throughout the process to have a good handle on how to manage the risks of this thing.  For those who want to know, the information is definitely out there and accessible.  It's just a shame that there is so much misinformation out there as well.  I can't tell you how many social media posts I have seen from friends and family that are SO far off base, either in one direction or the other, simply because they see or hear something out there, and just think it is true without vetting it.

Social media rumors or misinformation are becoming a big problem, not just for corona. Doesn't matter what anyone says on any subject, there will be a significant group believing it because it is what they want to hear. And people believing the same thing find each other and start a larger scale of spread of this misinformation (or even a movement). It worries me greatly that doctors and scientists are getting threats and one of our main news outlets changed to logoless white vans because reporters are apparently not safe anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 25, 2020, 10:24:50 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 09:06:17 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 25, 2020, 08:55:54 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 08:51:01 AM

Also in Italy the first indications were "masks are useful only for those who are ill, no need to wear them".

So it's not that Fauci made a personal decision, it was the worldwide consensus of the scientific community at the time.

And some doctors say this and others say another thing. SO who do you trust?

I trust those who apply the scientific method and study things and analyze things and, when faced with new discoveries, facts or data, are not afraid to change their opinion or admit they were wrong / not exactly right before.

For opinions that never change no matter what, there are religions and conspiracy theories. I accept that scientists might get something wrong at first and then realize their mistakes through studies, analysis and tests.

If the forum had a Like button, I’d click it for this post.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 10:49:11 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 25, 2020, 09:41:36 AM

Social media rumors or misinformation are becoming a big problem, not just for corona. Doesn't matter what anyone says on any subject, there will be a significant group believing it because it is what they want to hear.

Oh, of course.  And it's not new to social media either.  It's just that social media makes it much easier to spread.  But that type of attitude has been around forever.  Prior to that, the tabloids did the same thing.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMAkMsrgbaU

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on November 25, 2020, 11:06:08 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 10:49:11 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 25, 2020, 09:41:36 AM

Social media rumors or misinformation are becoming a big problem, not just for corona. Doesn't matter what anyone says on any subject, there will be a significant group believing it because it is what they want to hear.

Oh, of course.  And it's not new to social media either.  It's just that social media makes it much easier to spread.  But that type of attitude has been around forever.  Prior to that, the tabloids did the same thing.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMAkMsrgbaU

I used to think to myself how "the world" became so stupid so quickly, and then I realized it is precisely what bosk said. Peoples' ways of thinking haven't necessarily changed all that much, but the soapbox from which they can voice it has. With the proliferation of social media, EVERYONE has a nearly unlimited range to disperse opinions, emotions, theories, and ideas regardless of merit. Humans have a proclivity towards confirmation bias, and social media and the "real-time internet" have become the perfect vectors for people to exercise that bias, on blast and repeat, for the entire world to see and further spread.

Stupidity hasn't necessarily increased, but its ability to spread has.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on November 25, 2020, 11:38:05 AM

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 25, 2020, 11:06:08 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 10:49:11 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 25, 2020, 09:41:36 AM

Social media rumors or misinformation are becoming a big problem, not just for corona. Doesn't matter what anyone says on any subject, there will be a significant group believing it because it is what they want to hear.

Oh, of course.  And it's not new to social media either.  It's just that social media makes it much easier to spread.  But that type of attitude has been around forever.  Prior to that, the tabloids did the same thing.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMAkMsrgbaU

I used to think to myself how "the world" became so stupid so quickly, and then I realized it is precisely what bosk said. Peoples' ways of thinking haven't necessarily changed all that much, but the soapbox from which they can voice it has. With the proliferation of social media, EVERYONE has a nearly unlimited range to disperse opinions, emotions, theories, and ideas regardless of merit. Humans have a proclivity towards confirmation bias, and social media and the "real-time internet" have become the perfect vectors for people to exercise that bias, on blast and repeat, for the entire world to see and further spread.

Stupidity hasn't necessarily increased, but its ability to spread has.

These are all good points and what amazes me (although it shouldn't) is the change in people and their behavior especially the last 4 years. It's scary how propaganda can control one's own behavior but the human mind is generally weak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 25, 2020, 01:55:15 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 09:06:17 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 25, 2020, 08:55:54 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 25, 2020, 08:51:01 AM

Also in Italy the first indications were "masks are useful only for those who are ill, no need to wear them".

So it's not that Fauci made a personal decision, it was the worldwide consensus of the scientific community at the time.

And some doctors say this and others say another thing. SO who do you trust?

I trust those who apply the scientific method and study things and analyze things and, when faced with new discoveries, facts or data, are not afraid to change their opinion or admit they were wrong / not exactly right before.

For opinions that never change no matter what, there are religions and conspiracy theories. I accept that scientists might get something wrong at first and then realize their mistakes through studies, analysis and tests.

I agree with this. Science is ever changing, as new data can arrive. And if one can admit, they were wrong, and totally screwed up, I admire them for that honesty.

Quote from: Hyperplex on November 25, 2020, 11:06:08 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on November 25, 2020, 10:49:11 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on November 25, 2020, 09:41:36 AM

Social media rumors or misinformation are becoming a big problem, not just for corona. Doesn't matter what anyone says on any subject, there will be a significant group believing it because it is what they want to hear.

Oh, of course.  And it's not new to social media either.  It's just that social media makes it much easier to spread.  But that type of attitude has been around forever.  Prior to that, the tabloids did the same thing.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMAkMsrgbaU

I used to think to myself how "the world" became so stupid so quickly, and then I realized it is precisely what bosk said. Peoples' ways of thinking haven't necessarily changed all that much, but the soapbox from which they can voice it has. With the proliferation of social media, EVERYONE has a nearly unlimited range to disperse opinions, emotions, theories, and ideas regardless of merit. Humans have a proclivity towards confirmation bias, and social media and the "real-time internet" have become the perfect vectors for people to exercise that bias, on blast and repeat, for the entire world to see and further spread.

Stupidity hasn't necessarily increased, but its ability to spread has.

Stupidity has evolved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 26, 2020, 09:10:39 AM

So our state is doing this for businesses.

Quote

The state this week launched a new option for businesses in an attempt to avoid mandatory shutdowns when COVID-19 cases among workers reach certain levels. The business would be allowed to stay open if owners sign an agreement that calls for regular testing among employees and help with state contact tracing efforts.

The health department on Wednesday confirmed that Albertsons grocery stores are participating at all 34 locations in the state. Company officials said the agreement allows them to welcome back customers and workers to the stores that had been closed just in time for Thanksgiving."

https://www.kunm.org/post/thurs-gov-says-thanksgiving-plans-arent-worth-risk-food-banks-get-funding-boost-more?fbclid=IwAR3EJmxF_ebjFizQmZ4euYcViK_wwGQ_iu0eNsc6kxgekvJtJadvn6B-edQ


If the owners don't "sign the dotted line" They can be forced to shut down, but if they don't they best "sign the dotted line" (in their blood) so they can stay open and allow more customers inside...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on November 26, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

Speaking of "helping with contact tracing", also in Italy restaurants are supposed to take your details so to warn you if someone got sick at the restaurant.

I never understood if it was mandatory or not - only chinese restaurants obliged and asked me for my data, all the other italian ones, nobody gave a damn about this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 26, 2020, 10:07:44 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 26, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

Speaking of "helping with contact tracing", also in Italy restaurants are supposed to take your details so to warn you if someone got sick at the restaurant.

I never understood if it was mandatory or not - only chinese restaurants obliged and asked me for my data, all the other italian ones, nobody gave a damn about this.

Same here. I've been to a few that have "Contact Tracing Lists" or sign-up sheets. Some people had done it, but not many at all did. It was funny to see that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on November 26, 2020, 10:52:40 AM

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psychiatry-history/202011/support-trump-through-the-lens-narrative-psychology

A very interesting article.  Not wildly different (but with a lot more detail and scholarly basis) than what I've said about there being possible explanations other than "people who aren't me are stupid".   It also suggests that one solution is bridging the gap between the different narratives, and understanding WHY there are people with a different narrative (or that feel the current narrative doesn't fit them) instead of further alienation.   "In-groups and out-groups" (even though he doesn't use that terminology to my recollection).  Fascinating, and fairly basic, since it's been used with some success in other identity politics situations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on November 27, 2020, 06:40:30 AM

That was a fascinating read  ;D


I have to admit that I am 100% baffled by the fact that 70 million+ saw what happened in the last 4 years and actually thought, "yeah, I want more of this"


To me it's almost the same as getting punched in face and declaring "thank you may I please have another?"  But I had an experience this week that really made me kind of sad.  I'm visiting with my son and grandkids in Georgia this week and my daughter-in-law's grandmother came by the house yesterday and I was very excited to meet her.


Unfortunately it didn't happen.  When she arrived she asked her granddaughter about my wife and me, "are they Democrats or Republicans?" And when she heard the answer she said "well screw them idiots I have no use for them."  :|


If the last few years have taught me anything it's that life is far, far too short to let something as silly as politics come between family.  My son is about as conservative as they come.  He's a parole officer! What are the odds?  :rollin


But even though we missed out on several decades together due to my own stupidity, we're really bonding and neither one of us really gives a shit what the other thinks in terms of political/world views because in the end what difference will it make?  We don't see eye to eye on some stuff and that's OK.  He's still my son and I'm still his dad and I would gladly chop my legs off if he needed them to survive.


To me, that's all that really matters.  The rest is just background noise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on November 27, 2020, 07:04:25 AM

With all due respect, that woman is a fucking idiot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 27, 2020, 07:51:09 AM

Ugh.  My best friend's wife lost her mother overnight.  Complications with blo0d clots while battling cancer.  They took her arm last week but they couldn't stop the blood clots in her lungs.  I'm heartbroken for them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 27, 2020, 09:16:37 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 27, 2020, 06:40:30 AM

Unfortunately it didn't happen.  When she arrived she asked her granddaughter about my wife and me, "are they Democrats or Republicans?" And when she heard the answer she said "well screw them idiots I have no use for them."  :|

If she was past 70. There could be a chance she is prejudiced. Those people were young and grew up in a vastly different time. What's the term...."You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Quote from: kirksnosehair on November 27, 2020, 06:40:30 AM

If the last few years have taught me anything it's that life is far, far too short to let something as silly as politics come between family.  My son is about as conservative as they come.  He's a parole officer! What are the odds?  :rollin


But even though we missed out on several decades together due to my own stupidity, we're really bonding and neither one of us really gives a shit what the other thinks in terms of political/world views because in the end what difference will it make?  We don't see eye to eye on some stuff and that's OK.  He's still my son and I'm still his dad and I would gladly chop my legs off if he needed them to survive.


To me, that's all that really matters.  The rest is just background noise.

Yup. I 100% agree with you on this. Sometimes, it's best to just laugh and walk away with a smile, than engage and leave with your energy sucked away and now your day is entirely ruined.  :biggrin:

What you said about family and politics, makes a lot of sense to me. To me, there is something much more deeper within that family structure and bond that goes way beyond mere political disagreements, which those political disagreements trigger the reaction to disown the family and break that bond, it triggers those deeper problems.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on November 27, 2020, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 07:51:09 AM

Ugh.  My best friend's wife lost her mother overnight.  Complications with blo0d clots while battling cancer.  They took her arm last week but they couldn't stop the blood clots in her lungs.  I'm heartbroken for them.

Damn, sorry to hear that, man.  :( :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on November 27, 2020, 09:46:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on November 26, 2020, 10:52:40 AM

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psychiatry-history/202011/support-trump-through-the-lens-narrative-psychology

A very interesting article.  Not wildly different (but with a lot more detail and scholarly basis) than what I've said about there being possible explanations other than "people who aren't me are stupid".   It also suggests that one solution is bridging the gap between the different narratives, and understanding WHY there are people with a different narrative (or that feel the current narrative doesn't fit them) instead of further alienation.   "In-groups and out-groups" (even though he doesn't use that terminology to my recollection).  Fascinating, and fairly basic, since it's been used with some success in other identity politics situations.

What surprised me the most from that article was the percentage of Republicans who believe Trump won. Looks like more recent polls are down to 50%. I know it's anecdotal (not sure if I'm using that word correctly) but I'm in a group text that's dominated by one person who constantly posts anti-Democrat memes & articles but even he hasn't mentioned anything about the election being rigged. Interesting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 27, 2020, 10:02:22 AM

Read a story in the local news, or at least the first couple sentences, which basically said studies show Covid-19 is most often transmitted at home, at the workplace, or at social/professional gatherings. Doesn't that basically cover about 90% of human activity?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 27, 2020, 10:04:22 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 27, 2020, 10:02:22 AM

Read a story in the local news, or at least the first couple sentences, which basically said studies show Covid-19 is most often transmitted at home, at the workplace, or at social/professional gatherings. Doesn't that basically cover about 90% of human activity?

Pretty much... :corn

Edit: Hit the post button early by accident.... :facepalm: :loser:

Travelling also plays a lot into it. You have people traveling state to state, and that is spreading it. Harder to track the ones traveling by road. Which is why I don't understand why they didn't close all the borders to all states, and restrict all travel until this passes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 27, 2020, 10:09:08 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on November 27, 2020, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 07:51:09 AM

Ugh.  My best friend's wife lost her mother overnight.  Complications with blo0d clots while battling cancer.  They took her arm last week but they couldn't stop the blood clots in her lungs.  I'm heartbroken for them.

Damn, sorry to hear that, man.  :( :(

Thanks Kev.  It's tough to swallow as she was sent to a rehab center to be sent home for hospice but covid even stunted the family from being there when she passed away.  We will make a very quick stop at the wake and that hurts.  Can't hang with my friends in their time of need.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on November 27, 2020, 10:12:04 AM

Covid or not, no one should ever die alone, or be unable to say goodbye to a loved one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 27, 2020, 10:17:38 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 10:09:08 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on November 27, 2020, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 07:51:09 AM

Ugh.  My best friend's wife lost her mother overnight.  Complications with blo0d clots while battling cancer.  They took her arm last week but they couldn't stop the blood clots in her lungs.  I'm heartbroken for them.

Damn, sorry to hear that, man.  :( :(

Thanks Kev.  It's tough to swallow as she was sent to a rehab center to be sent home for hospice but covid even stunted the family from being there when she passed away.  We will make a very quick stop at the wake and that hurts.  Can't hang with my friends in their time of need.

That's more worse than the sickness, to me. That is a different type of sickness, a sickness of worry. You are seeing more of that due to people being told not to be there for comfort. Some people need that comfort, especially during holidays. Without it, depression can become worse. And you need that Human body contact, not a video conference. That hug alone will help immensely, and they aren't even able to get that. That is if you are that worried about the virus, it's priorities. That's up to you personally whether to risk that or not, and also up to the other person, which more than likely they would rather have, as they need that in the moment and would help them get through it so they won't be going through life mopey and sad. Some people are seeing that risk to be worth it, as they perceive it to be "living life".

I am going to keep saying it, it's why this virus is personal.

It's also why I say we shouldn't be getting upset at what other people decide and choose to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 27, 2020, 10:20:29 AM

As hard as it was to see my mom pass away in front of me, she knew we were all there as a family.  I couldn't imagine dying alone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 27, 2020, 10:23:12 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 10:20:29 AM

As hard as it was to see my mom pass away in front of me, she knew we were all there as a family.  I couldn't imagine dying alone.

Sadly, that's the situation with mostly everyone. It's why some are choosing not to even go to the hospital, and are accepting death at home. They would rather die at home and be comfortable there at home, than in a hospital that is hectic and chaotic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on November 27, 2020, 10:26:38 AM

In this case and in many cases, they are sent to a rehab center before going home. I think that's big business not wanting people's stays at hospitals too long which is where they should be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on November 27, 2020, 01:47:27 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 10:09:08 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on November 27, 2020, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 07:51:09 AM

Ugh.  My best friend's wife lost her mother overnight.  Complications with blo0d clots while battling cancer.  They took her arm last week but they couldn't stop the blood clots in her lungs.  I'm heartbroken for them.

Damn, sorry to hear that, man.  :( :(

Thanks Kev.  It's tough to swallow as she was sent to a rehab center to be sent home for hospice but covid even stunted the family from being there when she passed away.  We will make a very quick stop at the wake and that hurts.  Can't hang with my friends in their time of need.

I hear ya.  That definitely sucks big time. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on November 27, 2020, 03:08:42 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 10:09:08 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on November 27, 2020, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on November 27, 2020, 07:51:09 AM

Ugh.  My best friend's wife lost her mother overnight.  Complications with blo0d clots while battling cancer.  They took her arm last week but they couldn't stop the blood clots in her lungs.  I'm heartbroken for them.

Damn, sorry to hear that, man.  :( :(

Thanks Kev.  It's tough to swallow as she was sent to a rehab center to be sent home for hospice but covid even stunted the family from being there when she passed away.  We will make a very quick stop at the wake and that hurts.  Can't hang with my friends in their time of need.

Damn, sorry to hear this.  It's so tough right now to deal with these situations and there's really nothing you can do about it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on November 27, 2020, 08:20:40 PM

Along the lines of good news/bad news....

We have lost a few acquaintances and dear friends.  Amongst the list of things we could not do this year, was to go up to Detroit and watch the ceremony of Lou Whitaker's jersey retirement ceremony at 'Tiger' Stadium in August.  My wife's Uncle Gene, THE smartest and one of the nicest men I have ever met, who was just a joy to be around, made me feel like a forever part of the family, went into a senior home last week.  We never got that 'last' visit, and will never see him again.  And won't be at any type of ceremony.

My wife....after breaking her ankle, then spending 12+ hours in the emergency waiting area, doctor's area, xrays, etc.....had her surgery today.  After all of last weekend, plus the doctor's visit for a physical and then different office for bloodwork on Tuesday, my colonoscopy the day after the elections, emergency dental visit the week after................she tested negative today !!!  Woot. frickin' woot !!!  Which means the same for me. 

The stress and trying to sleep on the couch with my phone on while I get umpteen spam calls a day has been a pain, but damn...time for a beer or six and some good slumbers. <yes, that's semi selfish, but who isn't?>

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on November 28, 2020, 04:51:52 AM

Think of it as a reward for getting thru a brutal 3-week stretch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 03, 2020, 06:21:09 AM

I'm still seeing a lot of people using the line "the only reason there's more cases now is because we're testing much more frequently". I guess that's true to an extent, but the US broke 3000 deaths in a day yesterday, a new record, with more than 100,000 being hospitalized from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 07:16:15 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 03, 2020, 06:21:09 AM

I'm still seeing a lot of people using the line "the only reason there's more cases now is because we're testing much more frequently". I guess that's true to an extent, but the US broke 3000 deaths in a day yesterday, a new record, with more than 100,000 being hospitalized from it.

It's a contributor, but it's not the only reason.  My daughter had it, and the only way she knew was the test.  She literally did not have one symptom (not even loss of taste/smell) and her roommate who had it, her only symptom WAS the loss of taste/smell. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 03, 2020, 07:39:44 AM

For all this talk of COVID ravaging the country I sure have not seen any change whatsoever in life around these parts. Another day I'm glad to not live in a city or metropolitan area I suppose

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 03, 2020, 07:55:50 AM

I'm just hoping we only have the winter to deal with this before the vaccines roll out and we see the spread slow down.  There's been a lot of positive news about these vaccines being available real soon and with a good chance of a significant portion of the US population having it available to them in a few more months. 

I really do feel like there's a good chance that we are nearing the end of the pandemic.  If people can just keep being good with this, it could probably save a significant amount of lives before it's too late, but there's already such a "tired of this" attitude of many.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 08:04:15 AM

Oh, and if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old doctor that lives in a nursing home.   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 03, 2020, 08:13:43 AM

Norway says they plan on beginning to vaccinate "the most of us" during late summer, if everything works out. Obviously I'm thrilled with the fastest ever vaccine rollout, but god I'm going to be so bored. What are the chances that the virus mutates into something with the mortality of the common flu by then? :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 03, 2020, 08:58:32 AM

Cases are one thing (to Bill's point... we simply know about a lot more that weren't known about in the first wave).  It's the hospitalizations and deaths that are the concerning.  Here in Ontario, hospitalizations are up 140%, and ICU admittance is up 140% since the summer.  That's the truly worrisome part.

Cases are a leading indicator of trends and problems; hospitalizations/deaths are the lagging indicators.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on December 03, 2020, 09:32:49 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 03, 2020, 08:13:43 AM

Norway says they plan on beginning to vaccinate "the most of us" during late summer, if everything works out.

Curiously Finland's tentative plan is quite a bit quicker. Healthcare and eldercare staff would get it in January, and risk groups would be vaccinated by March. The rest would have their turn after that via public healthcare distribution.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 03, 2020, 09:34:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 08:04:15 AM

Oh, and if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old doctor that lives in a nursing home.   :tup

Wow! You don’t look a day over 73.  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 09:35:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 03, 2020, 09:34:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 08:04:15 AM

Oh, and if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old doctor that lives in a nursing home.   :tup

Wow! You don’t look a day over 73.  ;D

And don't feel a day over 71.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 03, 2020, 09:36:01 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 03, 2020, 09:34:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 08:04:15 AM

Oh, and if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old doctor that lives in a nursing home.   :tup

Wow! You don’t look a day over 73.  ;D

Having met him, I can buy 78.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 03, 2020, 09:36:19 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 09:35:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 03, 2020, 09:34:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 08:04:15 AM

Oh, and if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old doctor that lives in a nursing home.   :tup

Wow! You don’t look a day over 73.  ;D

And don't feel a day over 71.   :)

Oh I do! :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 03, 2020, 09:42:04 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 03, 2020, 09:36:19 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 09:35:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 03, 2020, 09:34:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 08:04:15 AM

Oh, and if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old doctor that lives in a nursing home.   :tup

Wow! You don’t look a day over 73.  ;D

And don't feel a day over 71.   :)

Oh I do! :lol

Are we talking about your pop culture/tech knowledge?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 03, 2020, 09:52:33 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 03, 2020, 08:58:32 AM

Cases are one thing (to Bill's point... we simply know about a lot more that weren't known about in the first wave).  It's the hospitalizations and deaths that are the concerning.  Here in Ontario, hospitalizations are up 140%, and ICU admittance is up 140% since the summer.  That's the truly worrisome part.

Cases are a leading indicator of trends and problems; hospitalizations/deaths are the lagging indicators.

Don't forget, Pnuemonia and Flu are also high as well during this season.  Are these Hospitalizations all Covid-19, or are they just counting whomever is admitted into the hospital?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on December 03, 2020, 10:01:25 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 03, 2020, 06:21:09 AM

I'm still seeing a lot of people using the line "the only reason there's more cases now is because we're testing much more frequently". I guess that's true to an extent, but the US broke 3000 deaths in a day yesterday, a new record, with more than 100,000 being hospitalized from it.

With the current amount of daily deaths compared to the first peak(s), it is very likely that the amount of cases about 2-4 weeks ago (death lag) was higher, let alone the testing numbers that followed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 03, 2020, 10:04:58 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 03, 2020, 09:52:33 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 03, 2020, 08:58:32 AM

Cases are one thing (to Bill's point... we simply know about a lot more that weren't known about in the first wave).  It's the hospitalizations and deaths that are the concerning.  Here in Ontario, hospitalizations are up 140%, and ICU admittance is up 140% since the summer.  That's the truly worrisome part.

Cases are a leading indicator of trends and problems; hospitalizations/deaths are the lagging indicators.

Don't forget, Pnuemonia and Flu are also high as well during this season.  Are these Hospitalizations all Covid-19, or are they just counting whomever is admitted into the hospital?

Specific to COVID.  And it's just in the last month ... NOT since the summer:

Quote

Over the past month, however, Ontario has experienced a 100 per cent increase in COVID-19 patients who require hospitalization. On Nov. 2, 328 novel coronavirus patients were admitted to hospitals in the province -- today that number stands at 656.

Intensive care units have also experienced a dramatic 144 per cent surge in COVID-19 patients over the same period -- going up from 75 patients on Nov. 2 to 183 patients on Dec 2.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 10:09:07 AM

What's the "novel" mean with "novel coronavirus"? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 03, 2020, 10:45:44 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 03, 2020, 10:09:07 AM

What's the "novel" mean with "novel coronavirus"?

New.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 03, 2020, 11:16:09 AM

It's gone from bad to worse here in Missouri. I work in IT supporting the department of health and we had a townhall yesterday and they gave a covid update. We had 4K covid cases in March - we have 110K now. The graph they showed from month to month was flat out stunning! Now I realize we have better capability to test now then we did back in March but that doesn't tell the entire story. Missouri's health care system is now feeling the squeeze and this is a small State. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on December 03, 2020, 11:23:44 AM

Maryland has been extremely fortunate, and diligent, with regards to the pandemic, but we have suffered, too. There's no place that hasn't. The governor's weekly pressers keep the state updated and I believe he's doing all he can at that executive level to help and mitigate. Tuesday, he announced, with his voice audibly breaking, that we had lost a one-year-old boy to COVID. He had to take a moment to compose himself before continuing. It's gut-wrenching.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 03, 2020, 11:27:25 AM

I saw that press conference.  Yeah, it was tough to see him say that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on December 03, 2020, 11:31:34 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 03, 2020, 11:27:25 AM

I saw that press conference.  Yeah, it was tough to see him say that.

Tough to see, tough to hear, unthinkable to imagine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 03, 2020, 12:02:24 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 03, 2020, 07:55:50 AM

I'm just hoping we only have the winter to deal with this before the vaccines roll out and we see the spread slow down.  There's been a lot of positive news about these vaccines being available real soon and with a good chance of a significant portion of the US population having it available to them in a few more months. 

I really do feel like there's a good chance that we are nearing the end of the pandemic.  If people can just keep being good with this, it could probably save a significant amount of lives before it's too late, but there's already such a "tired of this" attitude of many.

When I typed this earlier I was trying to find the article to link, here it is:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/operation-warp-speeds-top-scientist-194606363.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/operation-warp-speeds-top-scientist-194606363.html)

Quote

Moncef Slaoui, the top scientist advising the US government's Operation Warp Speed, predicted that more than 100 million Americans would be vaccinated against COVID-19 within the next 100 days.

Slaoui said 20 million Americans should be immunized in December, then 30 million more in January and 50 million in February.

By the end of February, "we will have potentially immunized 100 million people, which is really more or less the size of the significant at-risk population: the elderly, the healthcare workers, the first-line workers, people with comorbidities," Slaoui said.

This is why I'm starting to feel optimistic about coming out of the winter and things starting to come back to normal.  Between people naturally immune, those who recovered, and those who get vaccinated, by May we might have a majority of the population with some form of immunity.  I don't expect covid to go anywhere, it's here to stay, but there's legit reason to think we could get out of this state of so many sick and dying from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 03, 2020, 01:45:02 PM

California being put under a stay at home order, regionally based on hospital capacity. Not as strict as March, but pretty tight.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 10:21:55 AM

Good luck Marc. Might want to get tested after being in that tin sardine can with wings, too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on December 04, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

My in-laws travelled to Texas for a funeral a few months ago.  They were fine.  The plane was packed, but everyone wore masks throughout the flight.  If you keep a mask on and social distance where you can, like in the airport terminal, you should be ok. 

My brother has been over at my house a number of times.  He has asthma, and has been very cautious throughout the whole pandemic.  Any time he is inside with us, he keeps his mask on and sits farther away from everyone.  So if you're concerned about being indoors with them, just keep your mask on while you're inside and around your family. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 04, 2020, 10:41:31 AM

My dad is staying home in Michigan, as opposed to the condo in Florida, for the first time in nearly 30 years.  He usually spends winters in F-L-A.  He's 89, getting kinda tired, and says he's honestly okay not dealing with the trip down and back.  He's basically been hanging out alone in his apartment since lockdown, leaving only to go to doctor's appointments and the occassional shopping trip, but if he went to Florida it would be the same thing, since the condo place down there is all locked down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 04, 2020, 10:52:31 AM

Quote from: Grappler on December 04, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

My in-laws travelled to Texas for a funeral a few months ago.  They were fine.  The plane was packed, but everyone wore masks throughout the flight.  If you keep a mask on and social distance where you can, like in the airport terminal, you should be ok. 

My brother has been over at my house a number of times.  He has asthma, and has been very cautious throughout the whole pandemic.  Any time he is inside with us, he keeps his mask on and sits farther away from everyone.  So if you're concerned about being indoors with them, just keep your mask on while you're inside and around your family.

That's cool.  I've been largely staying home because in my (limited) experience, it's "everyone shows up in masks" and then 20 minutes later all the masks are hanging out of pockets or whatever, and it all goes to hell pretty quick.   It takes discipline to maintain the protections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on December 04, 2020, 10:58:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 04, 2020, 10:52:31 AM

Quote from: Grappler on December 04, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

My in-laws travelled to Texas for a funeral a few months ago.  They were fine.  The plane was packed, but everyone wore masks throughout the flight.  If you keep a mask on and social distance where you can, like in the airport terminal, you should be ok. 

My brother has been over at my house a number of times.  He has asthma, and has been very cautious throughout the whole pandemic.  Any time he is inside with us, he keeps his mask on and sits farther away from everyone.  So if you're concerned about being indoors with them, just keep your mask on while you're inside and around your family.

That's cool.  I've been largely staying home because in my (limited) experience, it's "everyone shows up in masks" and then 20 minutes later all the masks are hanging out of pockets or whatever, and it all goes to hell pretty quick.   It takes discipline to maintain the protections.

Well, it's my house.  So my wife, me, and the kids aren't wearing masks.  My mom and dad aren't.  So he just keeps his mask on and sits 4-6 feet away.  He was here for my son's birthday and spent 3 hours with us, just keeping his mask on.  Whatever makes him comfortable works for me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 04, 2020, 11:53:44 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 03, 2020, 12:02:24 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 03, 2020, 07:55:50 AM

I'm just hoping we only have the winter to deal with this before the vaccines roll out and we see the spread slow down.  There's been a lot of positive news about these vaccines being available real soon and with a good chance of a significant portion of the US population having it available to them in a few more months. 

I really do feel like there's a good chance that we are nearing the end of the pandemic.  If people can just keep being good with this, it could probably save a significant amount of lives before it's too late, but there's already such a "tired of this" attitude of many.

When I typed this earlier I was trying to find the article to link, here it is:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/operation-warp-speeds-top-scientist-194606363.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/operation-warp-speeds-top-scientist-194606363.html)

Quote

Moncef Slaoui, the top scientist advising the US government's Operation Warp Speed, predicted that more than 100 million Americans would be vaccinated against COVID-19 within the next 100 days.

Slaoui said 20 million Americans should be immunized in December, then 30 million more in January and 50 million in February.

By the end of February, "we will have potentially immunized 100 million people, which is really more or less the size of the significant at-risk population: the elderly, the healthcare workers, the first-line workers, people with comorbidities," Slaoui said.

This is why I'm starting to feel optimistic about coming out of the winter and things starting to come back to normal.  Between people naturally immune, those who recovered, and those who get vaccinated, by May we might have a majority of the population with some form of immunity.  I don't expect covid to go anywhere, it's here to stay, but there's legit reason to think we could get out of this state of so many sick and dying from it.

I just wanted to say that I share your optimism. A friend of mind had texted me the other day and she was pretty negative in her text and she is a hilarious and usually a positive person. I called to cheer her up (hopefully I succeeded)  and this is what I told her:

"Think about it - we're already at December and there is a vaccine on the way. We've lasted 9 months so surly we can make it another 6 or 7 months".

My wife and I see the faint light at the end of the tunnel so we are bucking up and locking down. We can last another few months realizing that we won't realistically be able to get a vaccine until Spring at the earliest. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 04, 2020, 01:23:54 PM

I'm with you Hunny.  I hope the best for those that are travelling and seeing family.  In and of itself, you'd think this wouldn't be risky.  To me though, it's like voting.  Does one vote really and truly make a difference?  No.  Does one trip really and truly make a difference in the spread of the virus.  Probably not?  But add 150M people collectively doing this together (US); or 10M (CA), and this is why we're in the predicament we're in.

My mother lives alone - jingle.family will make a brief stop for a masked (ALL 5 of us), non eating/drinking, physically distanced visit.  That's it.

Also, this:

(https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/127785136_10160378436462067_5354279131408286230_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=mG-BoynoopEAX-iiooF&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&oh=4d2e6d4859b4611fb733f2dc303f6a08&oe=5FF076E4)

Be safe everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on December 04, 2020, 02:17:17 PM

We are locking it down. My wife has had and will require a few medical things that will force her out of our comfort zones, but we are foregoing family gatherings this winter. The way I look at it, I'd rather miss this year in order to be able to gather next year. One or two gatherings missed pale in comparison to never seeing someone again due to COVID.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:22:09 PM

If I were a betting man I'd put money on people still missing next Christmas too, might as well just go now

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 04, 2020, 02:23:33 PM

We've been invited to visit some friends again in our old place for a birthday that coincides with the holidays. But we will likely leave that plane/train space for people who have to go home and visit their families.

I'm hoping that in a few months the curve will go down again to the place where it was all summer long, so that I can start doing volunteer work again and places open up and start hiring. I'm looking at the local news every day to see which sectors will get a boost - so far it hasn't been venues, and a venue I hope to start seeing bands in when this is over is reporting TERRIBLE losses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 04, 2020, 02:33:23 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:22:09 PM

If I were a betting man I'd put money on people still missing next Christmas too, might as well just go now

Well, I think things will be better because of the vaccine AND a new administration that will actually show some leadership. We're getting closer and now is not the time to fuck things up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:36:10 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 04, 2020, 02:33:23 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:22:09 PM

If I were a betting man I'd put money on people still missing next Christmas too, might as well just go now

Well, I think things will be better because of the vaccine AND a new administration that will actually show some leadership. We're getting closer and now is not the time to fuck things up.

Didn't they say this in April, June, September, October... I seriously just don't care anymore, and with the vaccines near at hand, I care even less about other people not wearing masks

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 04, 2020, 02:49:53 PM

Aaaaaaaaaand the SF Bay Area is shut down, effective Sunday. LA already closed, the rest of the state should follow by Monday. I guess all those who said this would magically disappear on Nov 4th can accept their status as complete fucking idiots. Fortunately both my jobs fall under essential employment under the new rules (grocery store and critical infrastructure) so I should be able to enjoy continued employment.


Told my mom yesterday I won't be attending Xmas, and I'm hoping the rest of the family follows suite.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 04, 2020, 02:50:52 PM

I don't think people will want to give up Christmas. It's a thing that people have a strong belief in. Whether you believe in it or not doesn't matter, a vast majority of people hold it dear to their heart. If the media or any political person, were to mention "Canceling Christmas", a guaranteed storm would brew and all hell would ironically break loose. (I hope I am not right)

So I am sure, they are trying their best not to use those terms. I think that's why there's a rush and push for this vaccine, and for the information of whether it's safe or not. They don't want to have to close down for Christmas. People want to see their families. But then, in the end, many will choose for themselves and decide to take that risk and spend Christmas with their loved ones. I don't hold them responsible for anything. Because they chose that, and felt in their hearts, it's a right choice for them. While I, could just stay home, and not catch it, and smirk when they catch it while I am safe at home. (Then I'd slip while shoveling snow, and hit the concrete, and now I'm in a coma...Because life is funny like that sometimes  :biggrin:).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 04, 2020, 02:55:14 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 04, 2020, 02:49:53 PM

Aaaaaaaaaand the SF Bay Area is shut down, effective Sunday. LA already closed, the rest of the state should follow by Monday. I guess all those who said this would magically disappear on Nov 4th can accept their status as complete fucking idiots. Fortunately both my jobs fall under essential employment under the new rules (grocery store and critical infrastructure) so I should be able to enjoy continued employment.


Told my mom yesterday I won't be attending Xmas, and I'm hoping the rest of the family follows suite.

Welcome to my world. We've been in lockdown since, well. This whole time. Our governor is now famous with the against lockdown twitter brigade. It's not bad, but I did notice how many people shop at Wal-Mart. It's funny actually how people complain about the long lines there, Yet here I am, driving up to Sprouts, easily walking in, getting what I need, and heading out the door, and back at home, while those people are still in line at Wal-Mart. It boggles my mind, how they complain and then don't bother, going to another place besides Wal-Mart. And Smith's is the 2nd top Grocery Store behind Wal-Mart, there lines are bad, but not as bad. Albertsons, is either or, and depends on what time of day you go. Basically, just be smart and have common sense where you shop at.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 04, 2020, 03:11:55 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 04, 2020, 02:55:14 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 04, 2020, 02:49:53 PM

Aaaaaaaaaand the SF Bay Area is shut down, effective Sunday. LA already closed, the rest of the state should follow by Monday. I guess all those who said this would magically disappear on Nov 4th can accept their status as complete fucking idiots. Fortunately both my jobs fall under essential employment under the new rules (grocery store and critical infrastructure) so I should be able to enjoy continued employment.


Told my mom yesterday I won't be attending Xmas, and I'm hoping the rest of the family follows suite.

Welcome to my world. We've been in lockdown since, well. This whole time. Our governor is now famous with the against lockdown twitter brigade. It's not bad, but I did notice how many people shop at Wal-Mart. It's funny actually how people complain about the long lines there, Yet here I am, driving up to Sprouts, easily walking in, getting what I need, and heading out the door, and back at home, while those people are still in line at Wal-Mart. It boggles my mind, how they complain and then don't bother, going to another place besides Wal-Mart. And Smith's is the 2nd top Grocery Store behind Wal-Mart, there lines are bad, but not as bad. Albertsons, is either or, and depends on what time of day you go. Basically, just be smart and have common sense where you shop at.

What state are you in?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 04, 2020, 04:24:14 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:36:10 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 04, 2020, 02:33:23 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:22:09 PM

If I were a betting man I'd put money on people still missing next Christmas too, might as well just go now

Well, I think things will be better because of the vaccine AND a new administration that will actually show some leadership. We're getting closer and now is not the time to fuck things up.

Didn't they say this in April, June, September, October... I seriously just don't care anymore, and with the vaccines near at hand, I care even less about other people not wearing masks

Triggered much? Weird.........

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 04:25:58 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 04, 2020, 04:24:14 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:36:10 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 04, 2020, 02:33:23 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 02:22:09 PM

If I were a betting man I'd put money on people still missing next Christmas too, might as well just go now

Well, I think things will be better because of the vaccine AND a new administration that will actually show some leadership. We're getting closer and now is not the time to fuck things up.

Didn't they say this in April, June, September, October... I seriously just don't care anymore, and with the vaccines near at hand, I care even less about other people not wearing masks

Triggered much? Weird.........

There was nothing I was upset about. I wasn't "triggered." Nice try though. I don't think that word means what you think it means. The part I bolded? Literally been said every month since March. That's all. But please try to lay down some more sick pwnage on me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 04, 2020, 05:25:26 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 04, 2020, 02:50:52 PM

I don't think people will want to give up Christmas. It's a thing that people have a strong belief in. Whether you believe in it or not doesn't matter, a vast majority of people hold it dear to their heart. If the media or any political person, were to mention "Canceling Christmas", a guaranteed storm would brew and all hell would ironically break loose. (I hope I am not right)

So I am sure, they are trying their best not to use those terms. I think that's why there's a rush and push for this vaccine, and for the information of whether it's safe or not. They don't want to have to close down for Christmas. People want to see their families. But then, in the end, many will choose for themselves and decide to take that risk and spend Christmas with their loved ones. I don't hold them responsible for anything. Because they chose that, and felt in their hearts, it's a right choice for them. While I, could just stay home, and not catch it, and smirk when they catch it while I am safe at home. (Then I'd slip while shoveling snow, and hit the concrete, and now I'm in a coma...Because life is funny like that sometimes  :biggrin:).

Christmas was dear also in the years between 1939 and 1944. It's not that - Xmas truce aside and that anyway happened in WWI, not II - people just stopped the war because it was Christmas. As painful as it is, the virus doesn't stop because of Christmas and there has to be painful decisions about it.

In Italy they effectively cancelled the holiday period - tradionally the period that goes from immediately before Xmas to 6th of January, which is another big holiday here, it's the classic winter time, schools are closed and the vast majority of offices either close, or give you holidays during that time. Well, all big movements around the nation are suspended in that period. On Xmas and Boxing Day, just like NYE, people won't be literally allowed to leave their own town (which caused a shitstorm because if you're in a big city, you can walk around and meet a lot of people, but if you're in a small town in the countryside you can't go to your equally small neighbouring town to meet your close relatives). So yeah, Christmas has been cancelled here, and that's a gamble of the government who wants to bring down the curve once and for all (yesterday 993 people died, on a country of 60-63 millions of people). And that is what sadly has to happen everywhere else, with the due exceptions and careful attentions when moving around or traveling.

Of course it bloody sucks to not have a normal Christmas and having to make a choice about how few relatives you have to meet, but the world isn't going to end for a missed Christmas. It's going to end, although not literally, if we drag this thing forever. Vaccines will take months to be implemented, we just have to bring down the number of cases somehow and the Christmas holidays and gatherings are sadly a major case for contagions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on December 04, 2020, 07:43:57 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 04, 2020, 05:25:26 PM

On Xmas and Boxing Day, just like NYE, people won't be literally allowed to leave their own town

Wha?!?! Are their checkpoints at the city limits? Or is it just one of those declarations that doesn't have any teeth to it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: dparrott on December 04, 2020, 11:42:02 PM

NBA star Karl Anthony-Towns came out and said he's lost 7 family members to it.  Damn. 
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2920980-karl-anthony-towns-says-he-lost-7-family-members-to-covid-19-including-his-mom
So I suppose he's lying too and part of the political machine and trying to control people?  ::)

Re: Christmas, in an unusual year, you have to do non-traditional things.  Stay home with your immediate family.  If you HAVE to celebrate it with distant family, do it through zoom.  Hopefully these lockdowns will stop people from traveling like they did at Thanksgiving.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 05, 2020, 02:27:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 10:21:55 AM

Good luck Marc. Might want to get tested after being in that tin sardine can with wings, too.

I know nothing is a guarantee, short of strictly quarantining.  But I wouldn't worry too much about flying, as aggressively as they cycle and filter the air on planes.  I am really close friends with 2 doctors, both of whom I chat with on Zoom at least once a week, and neither is concerned about flying.  One of the two is pretty skittish about doing a lot of things, and he has flown several times since March.  Again, nothing is a guarantee.  But flying isn't something I would be overly fearful about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 05, 2020, 04:52:32 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on December 04, 2020, 07:43:57 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 04, 2020, 05:25:26 PM

On Xmas and Boxing Day, just like NYE, people won't be literally allowed to leave their own town

Wha?!?! Are their checkpoints at the city limits? Or is it just one of those declarations that doesn't have any teeth to it?

Remains to be seen.

Checkpoints won't definitively be there, they won't literally lock you inside your own town blocking all the roads leading outside. But I assume there will be police rounds, so it's a toss of a coin, you either travel 100 KMs and nobody stops you, or you take a random road and after 2 kMs the police stops you and asks you for a reason why you're around. How thorough those checks will be, and if there will be many police cars going around or nobody will ultimately enforce it, it's anyone's guess. So far that is the regulation, on 25th and 26th December you are not supposed to leave your own town.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 05, 2020, 06:13:27 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 05, 2020, 02:27:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 10:21:55 AM

Good luck Marc. Might want to get tested after being in that tin sardine can with wings, too.

I know nothing is a guarantee, short of strictly quarantining.  But I wouldn't worry too much about flying, as aggressively as they cycle and filter the air on planes.  I am really close friends with 2 doctors, both of whom I chat with on Zoom at least once a week, and neither is concerned about flying.  One of the two is pretty skittish about doing a lot of things, and he has flown several times since March.  Again, nothing is a guarantee.  But flying isn't something I would be overly fearful about.

Well, yeah. All I said was maybe get tested. Nothing to do with fear

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on December 05, 2020, 06:43:25 AM

My group has 10 people in it and 6 of them were potentially exposed to another guy in our group who tested positive. One of them just got over Covid a couple weeks ago, so she was ok to stay at work, the other 5 had to quarantine until they get negative test results. All because they don't work hard enough to keep their distance from each other. Everyone wears masks all the time, so the chance of transmission is low, but it's still a freaking pain in the ass to deal with this all the time (this is a third time we've had multiple people from our group need to quarantine until they get a negative test result). Two of my guys had to go home because the positive guy hung out in their shared office to chat for a while earlier this week. My boss and I are at our wits end trying to explain to these people how important it is to not work closely with each other. I worry about their safety of course (thankfully everyone was negative), but we're basically shutting down our department and delaying customer projects every time this happens. My boss and I want to sit them all down and beat into their brains that they cannot be working in close proximity to each other. Honestly, if someone does something like that again (sitting around in an enclosed office chatting and exposing others) I want to fire them. There is occasionally a process that requires short term close contact, but just killing time while exposing others is inexcusable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 05, 2020, 08:24:50 AM

Quote from: dparrott on December 04, 2020, 11:42:02 PM

Hopefully these lockdowns will stop people from traveling like they did at Thanksgiving.   

I hate to break it to you. But, it won't. Because the airports are still open, and people have cars.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on December 06, 2020, 07:41:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

I just came down to Florida to see my brother, st.pete/Tampa area and ill tell that you would think covid doesn't exists here. The amount of people out everywhere with zero masks its astonishing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 06, 2020, 08:42:53 AM

Stay safe you two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 06, 2020, 11:38:47 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 05, 2020, 02:27:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 04, 2020, 10:21:55 AM

Good luck Marc. Might want to get tested after being in that tin sardine can with wings, too.

I know nothing is a guarantee, short of strictly quarantining.  But I wouldn't worry too much about flying, as aggressively as they cycle and filter the air on planes.  I am really close friends with 2 doctors, both of whom I chat with on Zoom at least once a week, and neither is concerned about flying.  One of the two is pretty skittish about doing a lot of things, and he has flown several times since March.  Again, nothing is a guarantee.  But flying isn't something I would be overly fearful about.

I'd be more afraid of setting foot in Florida than I would an airport. You still won't catch me on a plane, but from the stuff I've read and seen, flying actually looks pretty safe in its current capacity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 06, 2020, 05:55:00 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 05, 2020, 08:24:50 AM

Quote from: dparrott on December 04, 2020, 11:42:02 PM

Hopefully these lockdowns will stop people from traveling like they did at Thanksgiving.   

I hate to break it to you. But, it won't. Because the airports are still open, and people have cars.

But they're narrowing down things: it's not cars and it's not airports.

it's restaurants, bars and gyms, and, to a lesser degree, hotels.  it's really not rocket science; poor circulation, close quarters, static environment (you can't move your tables in a restaurant, or move that treadmill, if someone decides to use the table/treadmill next to you).  Around where I am, the only really "egregious" anti-COVID stuff I hear about is restaurants not limiting capacity (a place I used to go a lot, and used to play softball for them, they were an appeal away from losing their license to sell food for having over 50% capacity, and letting people stand at the bar) or having bars open.   There's a titty bar about five miles from my house, and I often drive by there; I've seen the parking lot full a couple times in the last couple weeks.  Ridiculous.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 06, 2020, 07:54:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 06, 2020, 05:55:00 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 05, 2020, 08:24:50 AM

Quote from: dparrott on December 04, 2020, 11:42:02 PM

Hopefully these lockdowns will stop people from traveling like they did at Thanksgiving.   

I hate to break it to you. But, it won't. Because the airports are still open, and people have cars.

But they're narrowing down things: it's not cars and it's not airports.

it's restaurants, bars and gyms, and, to a lesser degree, hotels.  it's really not rocket science; poor circulation, close quarters, static environment (you can't move your tables in a restaurant, or move that treadmill, if someone decides to use the table/treadmill next to you).  Around where I am, the only really "egregious" anti-COVID stuff I hear about is restaurants not limiting capacity (a place I used to go a lot, and used to play softball for them, they were an appeal away from losing their license to sell food for having over 50% capacity, and letting people stand at the bar) or having bars open.   There's a titty bar about five miles from my house, and I often drive by there; I've seen the parking lot full a couple times in the last couple weeks.  Ridiculous.

There's a bar about a mile from me that's packed constantly. They have popcorn, peanuts, and nachos on the menu, essentially allowing them to operate as a restaurant instead of a bar.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on December 06, 2020, 09:13:30 PM

I thought all bars here in WA had to serve food as part of their business. Are there states where bars can only sell booze?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: dparrott on December 07, 2020, 12:41:31 AM

Rudy Giuliani in the hospital with COVID.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/rudy-giuliani-tested-positive-covid-19-trump/story?id=74571847

Great.  God knows how many hundreds he's given it to. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 07, 2020, 06:25:58 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on December 06, 2020, 09:13:30 PM

I thought all bars here in WA had to serve food as part of their business. Are there states where bars can only sell booze?

I don't remember the exact wording of the statute, but in Philly, whether you can smoke in the bar or not depends on how much (by percentage) food you sell.  So the Locust, my old corner bar, you couldn't smoke in there, ever, because they were a bar/restaurant.   But right down the street, McGlinchey's, their only food was hot dogs out of one of those roller things you see at a 7-11, so you could smoke in the bar.   Here in CT, the Spigot, in West Hartford, they don't sell any food at all (you can bring it in, and there's a Subway and a pizza shop across the street).   So yeah, there are bars where you don't/can't get food. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 06:47:44 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 07, 2020, 06:25:58 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on December 06, 2020, 09:13:30 PM

I thought all bars here in WA had to serve food as part of their business. Are there states where bars can only sell booze?

I don't remember the exact wording of the statute, but in Philly, whether you can smoke in the bar or not depends on how much (by percentage) food you sell.  So the Locust, my old corner bar, you couldn't smoke in there, ever, because they were a bar/restaurant.   But right down the street, McGlinchey's, their only food was hot dogs out of one of those roller things you see at a 7-11, so you could smoke in the bar.   Here in CT, the Spigot, in West Hartford, they don't sell any food at all (you can bring it in, and there's a Subway and a pizza shop across the street).   So yeah, there are bars where you don't/can't get food.

This has been my understanding as well. Serving food opens you up to new permits and inspections, so a lot of the dive bars around me don't bother.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:09:16 AM

Nice little Thanksgiving spike in my state.

(https://preview.redd.it/yj57fd0e3r361.png?width=457&auto=webp&s=4afd51b9ee3497e64d67ed7ca5fbcb65283a677e)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:16:36 AM

Quote from: dparrott on December 07, 2020, 12:41:31 AM

Rudy Giuliani in the hospital with COVID.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/rudy-giuliani-tested-positive-covid-19-trump/story?id=74571847

Great.  God knows how many hundreds he's given it to.

Here's a video of him asking a witness sitting 3 feet from him to remove her mask:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnMQhyu2IwE

Also, looks like the Arizona legislature has shut down for a week because this douche exposed a bunch of legislators to Covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:30:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

did you compare getting pregnant to getting a disease

but, yes, I agree, although we should let the individual make their own choice, if we're really going to compare masks to condoms

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 07, 2020, 07:34:23 AM

The comparison falls apart when you realize that if you have unprotected sex, you don't knock up all the women you came into comtact with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on December 07, 2020, 07:38:58 AM

Some are just that potent :zydar:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:30:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

did you compare getting pregnant to getting a disease

but, yes, I agree, although we should let the individual make their own choice, if we're really going to compare masks to condoms

I compared the effectiveness of the tools we use vs our desired outcomes. Just because it doesn't always work doesn't mean it's not an effective solution. Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent every death in a car, but they're a good idea. Occasionally a pressure release valve fails on a hot water heater and blows up someone's house, but I'd still prefer all hot water systems have them. Brushing your teeth wont prevent every instance of cavities, but not many people seem to balk at that routine. I'm not claiming that masks are 100% effective. However, they're the bare minimum to keep those around you safe. Pridefully not wearing one in an intimate setting like a courtroom isn't something we should be encouraging or entertaining as okay.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 07, 2020, 07:52:45 AM

If we were on Facebook I'd like Chino's post. If we were on Reddit, I'd give it an award.

 :hefdaddy :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:55:51 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:30:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

did you compare getting pregnant to getting a disease

but, yes, I agree, although we should let the individual make their own choice, if we're really going to compare masks to condoms

I compared the effectiveness of the tools we use vs our desired outcomes. Just because it doesn't always work doesn't mean it's not an effective solution. Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent every death in a car, but they're a good idea. Occasionally a pressure release valve fails on a hot water heater and blows up someone's house, but I'd still prefer all hot water systems have them. Brushing your teeth wont prevent every instance of cavities, but not many people seem to balk at that routine. I'm not claiming that masks are 100% effective. However, they're the bare minimum to keep those around you safe. Pridefully not wearing one in an intimate setting like a courtroom isn't something we should be encouraging or entertaining as okay.

Yes, you are literally not telling me anything I don't already know. I agree with you. Just saying I don't think someone wearing a mask automatically means they're "better" or suddenly not gonna get it. A thin bandana that doesn't offer any medical grade protection from particles should, logically, be worthy of chastising too, but people are more concerned about the appearance rather than the effectiveness, it seems. Nobody says anything when I wear a super thin headband over my mouth, when it offers no protection, but the appearance comforts people, which isn't very logical

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 07, 2020, 08:18:14 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:30:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

did you compare getting pregnant to getting a disease

but, yes, I agree, although we should let the individual make their own choice, if we're really going to compare masks to condoms

I compared the effectiveness of the tools we use vs our desired outcomes. Just because it doesn't always work doesn't mean it's not an effective solution. Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent every death in a car, but they're a good idea. Occasionally a pressure release valve fails on a hot water heater and blows up someone's house, but I'd still prefer all hot water systems have them. Brushing your teeth wont prevent every instance of cavities, but not many people seem to balk at that routine. I'm not claiming that masks are 100% effective. However, they're the bare minimum to keep those around you safe. Pridefully not wearing one in an intimate setting like a courtroom isn't something we should be encouraging or entertaining as okay.

I'm with you on this, 100%, and I wear my mask wherever I go.   But like all of those things, they are a good idea, but our government doesn't MAKE us do them.   I have never ever been with a woman who said "well, you know, if it was up to me I'd let you do me without a condom, but it's not in my hands...."   

I'm not arguing that the government SHOULDN'T make us - because when I'm having sex with that woman, the other people in proximity to us aren't going to get pregnant no matter what - but that's the point that all these analogies fall apart. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 08:22:26 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 07, 2020, 08:18:14 AM

I have never ever been with a woman who said "well, you know, if it was up to me I'd let you do me without a condom, but it's not in my hands...."   

That's the problem, it's not in her hands!  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 07, 2020, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:55:51 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:30:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

did you compare getting pregnant to getting a disease

but, yes, I agree, although we should let the individual make their own choice, if we're really going to compare masks to condoms

I compared the effectiveness of the tools we use vs our desired outcomes. Just because it doesn't always work doesn't mean it's not an effective solution. Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent every death in a car, but they're a good idea. Occasionally a pressure release valve fails on a hot water heater and blows up someone's house, but I'd still prefer all hot water systems have them. Brushing your teeth wont prevent every instance of cavities, but not many people seem to balk at that routine. I'm not claiming that masks are 100% effective. However, they're the bare minimum to keep those around you safe. Pridefully not wearing one in an intimate setting like a courtroom isn't something we should be encouraging or entertaining as okay.

Yes, you are literally not telling me anything I don't already know. I agree with you. Just saying I don't think someone wearing a mask automatically means they're "better" or suddenly not gonna get it. A thin bandana that doesn't offer any medical grade protection from particles should, logically, be worthy of chastising too, but people are more concerned about the appearance rather than the effectiveness, it seems. Nobody says anything when I wear a super thin headband over my mouth, when it offers no protection, but the appearance comforts people, which isn't very logical

That's the point. I see it as virtue signaling of a "sense of safety". Then, using your example, you wore a super thin headband, you are now basically the same as those that don't wear masks, as it offers no protection. That's why I laugh as well, because some of my shirts are thicker than the spare mask I bought online. Yet, my shirt doesn't qualify and people get upset because it's not a mask, or a "face shield" which has openings at the bottom and sides.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 09:15:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:55:51 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:30:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

did you compare getting pregnant to getting a disease

but, yes, I agree, although we should let the individual make their own choice, if we're really going to compare masks to condoms

I compared the effectiveness of the tools we use vs our desired outcomes. Just because it doesn't always work doesn't mean it's not an effective solution. Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent every death in a car, but they're a good idea. Occasionally a pressure release valve fails on a hot water heater and blows up someone's house, but I'd still prefer all hot water systems have them. Brushing your teeth wont prevent every instance of cavities, but not many people seem to balk at that routine. I'm not claiming that masks are 100% effective. However, they're the bare minimum to keep those around you safe. Pridefully not wearing one in an intimate setting like a courtroom isn't something we should be encouraging or entertaining as okay.

Yes, you are literally not telling me anything I don't already know. I agree with you. Just saying I don't think someone wearing a mask automatically means they're "better" or suddenly not gonna get it. A thin bandana that doesn't offer any medical grade protection from particles should, logically, be worthy of chastising too, but people are more concerned about the appearance rather than the effectiveness, it seems. Nobody says anything when I wear a super thin headband over my mouth, when it offers no protection, but the appearance comforts people, which isn't very logical

You're right... it's up to people to actually WANT to do the 'right' thing.  One could also wear a useless strap across their lap and call it a "seatbelt" to keep up appearances - and still get tossed thru their windshield.  But hey, they kept up the appearance!   :tup

This isn't a shot at you Mike, cuz I'm sure you're not walking around with a headband over your mouth.  But if all people want to do is 'game' the rules, there's certainly no controlling that.

@ Stads... our gov't most certainly does "make" us do some of these things - building codes, health codes for the food industry, seatbelts for drivers, other safety standards for auto manufacturers ... the condom analogy falls apart (except for those knowing they have an STD), as does the teethbrushing, but the others do not.  As was noted, individual lack of compliance doesn't affect others in those senses.  Where gov't (imo) has the right to be involved is when said lack of compliance can directly affect the well-being of others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:23:02 AM

I mean actually yes I am using that same headband I wore to ProgPower over my mouth and have been doing that for 5 months. Started when my 'real' mask broke when I tried putting it on and I've stuck with it since because I don't want someone to cause a scene while I'm buying eggs and also I just like to follow the rules of an establishment. If anything I'm going to chastise people who wear their masks incorrectly more than those who don't, at this point

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 07, 2020, 09:28:12 AM

From my understanding, any cloth over the face is still better than nothing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on December 07, 2020, 09:29:25 AM

just so it’s clear the face covering isn’t to protect yourself.  It prevents your own droplets from traveling in the air and infecting others in case you are asymptomatic and don’t know.  So having anything over your nose and mouth, from the cheapest cloth to an n95 mask and faceshield, is better than none and if every single person in the grocery store or wherever has one the protection works as well as it can.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:31:47 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 07, 2020, 09:28:12 AM

From my understanding, any cloth over the face is still better than nothing.

Yes. But .00001% more than nothing really doesn't mean much even if, mathematically, it checks out. That's my point. Bandanas, a ripped off piece of a t-shirt... it'll make you feel safer more than it actually prevents you from breathing in a microscopic particle. How many people are actually washing those face coverings (shirt, bandana, whatever) every time they come home? I know I don't

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 07, 2020, 09:29:25 AM

just so it’s clear the face covering isn’t to protect yourself.  It prevents your own droplets from traveling in the air and infecting others in case you are asymptomatic and don’t know.  So having anything over your nose and mouth, from the cheapest cloth to an n95 mask and faceshield, is better than none and if every single person in the grocery store or wherever has one the protection works as well as it can.

Yes. Literally everybody except science deniers knows all of this by now. Even if it is just .00001% more than nothing :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:31:47 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 07, 2020, 09:29:25 AM

just so it’s clear the face covering isn’t to protect yourself.  It prevents your own droplets from traveling in the air and infecting others in case you are asymptomatic and don’t know.  So having anything over your nose and mouth, from the cheapest cloth to an n95 mask and faceshield, is better than none and if every single person in the grocery store or wherever has one the protection works as well as it can.

Yes. Literally everybody knows all of this by now. Who doesn't? :lol

I guess...anyone who talks about masks in terms of what you breathe in rather than what you breathe out?

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:31:47 AM

... it'll make you feel safer more than it actually prevents you from breathing in a microscopic particle.

Oh...er...oops.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:47:22 AM

A thin headband manufactured to be worn on the head, a t-shirt designed to be a t-shirt and not a mask, etc. doesn't offer the same protection against microscopic particles as medical masks even if it offers the slightest more protection. It doesn't matter if you're talking about breathing in or out, and just because it might offer the slightest bit more protection than wearing nothing doesn't mean it's suddenly gonna be helpful. This coming from a guy who wears masks, bandanas etc. every time he's out. Try to 'gotcha' me again though Jerry

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 07, 2020, 09:54:13 AM

There's a lot of virtue signalling over masks because people refused to wear them (in some countries) and some still do (in some countries). When people finally start getting used to them and you guys get to have few months of politically neutral mask practice in your state, it will become a non-issue. Tbh I don't feel that safe when I'm going in and out of places even when everyone is wearing them. Some places are small and unventilated, you touch a lot of things and don't get to sanitize your hands every time you do that on the move, you have to fiddle with your mask a lot when you wear glasses... it's not that perfect. I saw a woman take off her mask to eat chips out of a bag on the public transport after touching the pole without doing a round of hand sanitizer, if she got infected she'd be like "I don't know how I got it, I wear a mask everywhere".

I was taking a B2 Norwegian exam today, and they said that you should stay home if you have symptoms, so I avoided going outside in the past week because it's cold and I didn't wanna get the sniffles and be judged by everyone. Well, I did all that anti-fitness for nothing, because a girl with a suspiciously dry cough showed up today, and no one told her anything at all :mehlin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 10:16:17 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:47:22 AM

A thin headband manufactured to be worn on the head, a t-shirt designed to be a t-shirt and not a mask, etc. doesn't offer the same protection against microscopic particles as medical masks even if it offers the slightest more protection. It doesn't matter if you're talking about breathing in or out, and just because it might offer the slightest bit more protection than wearing nothing doesn't mean it's suddenly gonna be helpful. This coming from a guy who wears masks, bandanas etc. every time he's out. Try to 'gotcha' me again though Jerry

It's not a "gotcha!"  It's just that, while you say "well, who doesn't know that?" when clearly MANY people--probably the majority--talk as if they do not.  I'm just highlighting that fact, and your own post made it easier to make the point.  When several posts on this page talk about begin safer by virtue of wearing a mask, or talk in terms of what you breathe in when wearing a mask, people either don't get it, or at least talk as if they don't. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 10:25:18 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 10:16:17 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:47:22 AM

A thin headband manufactured to be worn on the head, a t-shirt designed to be a t-shirt and not a mask, etc. doesn't offer the same protection against microscopic particles as medical masks even if it offers the slightest more protection. It doesn't matter if you're talking about breathing in or out, and just because it might offer the slightest bit more protection than wearing nothing doesn't mean it's suddenly gonna be helpful. This coming from a guy who wears masks, bandanas etc. every time he's out. Try to 'gotcha' me again though Jerry

It's not a "gotcha!"  It's just that, while you say "well, who doesn't know that?" when clearly MANY people--probably the majority--talk as if they do not.  I'm just highlighting that fact, and your own post made it easier to make the point.  When several posts on this page talk about begin safer by virtue of wearing a mask, or talk in terms of what you breathe in when wearing a mask, people either don't get it, or at least talk as if they don't.

Even though I've made many posts in this thread clearly indicating I understand this, you went ahead and tried to imply that I don't understand that. I saw what you were doing with your "um.... er... oh... oops" crap, smartass. You breathe in, you breathe out. Both processes are relevant with respect to the mask issue and any particulate matter. If you were talking about other people, there's no reason for you to have quoted me there, you could've specified, and you would say the same thing to others. You know what you're doing, trying to rankle feathers. Which you succeeded at - congrats, I suppose. For someone who has chastised me on the regular for 'trolling' you as recently as a couple weeks ago in a Star Wars thread you sure know how to do it to others well. I accept your apology though

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 10:33:04 AM

It's not about you, so stop derailing the thread by trying to make it personal.  It isn't.  It's discussion.  There's a legitimate point to be made about people not getting it and/or talking about it like they don't get it.  So (1) thanks again for making the point for me, which your post did, and (2) sorry if you don't/can't understand the point being made and choose to focus on the fact that your post happened to be a poster child for that argument.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 10:34:23 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 10:33:04 AM

It's not about you, so stop derailing the thread by trying to make it personal.  It isn't.  It's discussion.  There's a legitimate point to be made about people not getting it and/or talking about it like they don't get it.  So (1) thanks again for making the point for me, which your post did, and (2) sorry if you don't/can't understand the point being made and choose to focus on the fact that your post happened to be a poster child for that argument.

You say it isn't about me and yet you went out of your way to use me as an example and use your "oh.. er... oops" thing to make it look like I don't understand what is being discussed. Stop insulting my intelligence. You do this all the time. Just ban me instead. It'll be much less of a pain in the ass than dealing with you treating me like a child. We constantly have this discussion about respecting one another publicly and through PM and we *both* pledge to be better but it always circles back to you never accepting responsibility for your own behavior or statements. So, honestly, I don't know what your problem is. You came in here to poke the bear and derail things with an unnecessary post aimed at agitating me, but it's my fault. Got it. You're sick of me and I'm sick of you. Your call, Warden, 'cause at this point I couldn't care less. It's your sandbox and I'm just kicking sand around in it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 10:44:32 AM

Will the two of you lighten up on one another?!?!  Mike... you know I'm one of the last one's to back Bosk, but you did kinda step in it yourself.  You stated that you full well know the reasons for masks, yet openly state you don't bother to wear a suitable mask.  There are countless studies (peer reviewed), that outline even 2-ply cloth masks reduce the spread, and have some benefit to the wearer.  Then you go on to say you're not bothered enough to do anything but wear a thin head band... and then make a comment about the effect of what you breathe in.

You kinda opened yourself up to the comments.  Let me ask you ... would you have been as bothered if I or someone else had made the comment, or are you just a tad sensitive to the post coming from Bosk?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 10:48:23 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 10:44:32 AM

Will the two of you lighten up on one another?!?!  Mike... you know I'm one of the last one's to back Bosk, but you did kinda step in it yourself.  You stated that you full well know the reasons for masks, yet openly state you don't bother to wear a suitable mask.  There are countless studies (peer reviewed), that outline even 2-ply cloth masks reduce the spread, and have some benefit to the wearer.  Then you go on to say you're not bothered enough to do anything but wear a thin head band... and then make a comment about the effect of what you breathe in.

You kinda opened yourself up to the comments.  Let me ask you ... would you have been as bothered if I or someone else had made the comment, or are you just a tad sensitive to the post coming from Bosk?

Motherfucker, Chad. I don't wear a suitable mask for numerous reasons (mostly convenience and I'm tired of buying masks), but NOT because I'm some anti-medical mask knuckdragger. I flat-out have said this morning that unsuitable masks are more effective than wearing nothing at all, but that I don't feel they actually offer MUCH protection at all (thin material - probably not being washed - people touching masks and not worrying about washing their hands - etc.), and are more effective at calming people due to the appearance of having something over your mouth. That's it. What you breathe in matters as much as what you're breathing out. I don't understand why there is confusion on this. You don't breathe one way. Also, yeah, I am sick of bosk's double standard shit especially when he admits to being overzealous in PM but then in public doubles down on his wrist slapping without acknowledging his unnecessary 'examples' which he could've used without trying to imply that I am dumb. Because it's gone on for 3 years now and I would rather he just ban me than put me through this eyeroll worthy ringer again. But I'll tap out now. Peace

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 11:04:16 AM

Again, the point is that, this far into this health crisis, people should clearly get what certain types of masks do and don't do.  And yet, the way people talk about it, it illustrates that there are at least two problems:  (1) a lot people use imprecise language that, taken literally, is incorrect; and (2) a lot of people clearly don't get it.  Several posts in this very thread illustrated the point.  The one that I quoted illustrated it perfectly, hence the quote. 

Off topic, sorry if that bothered you.  If it did, you can either take it to PM, or just roll with it and move on.  Sarcasm and humor are part of the way a lot of people post, myself included.  And I know sometimes, sarcasm and/or humor can be taken the wrong way.  In light of your latest post, I publicly apologize that I posted in such a way that you took it as me indirectly calling you "dumb."  Not my intent, and I'm sorry I posted something that was taken that way.  But my actual point was legitimate, and I'm not going to walk on eggshells before I quote someone and wonder whether or not they woke up on the right side of the bed and are going to take it the wrong way because they have decided they have a personal ax to grind that day. 

On topic, and back to the reasoning behind my post, I still legitimately don't understand why people don't understand what certain types of masks do, why, and in what context.  I'm not calling anyone out for making an informed decision that I happen to disagree with.  But I am legitimately bothered by the fact that this far along, a lot of those decisions are not informed, and are often based on dialog that perpetuates that misinformation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 11:14:19 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 10:48:23 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 10:44:32 AM

Will the two of you lighten up on one another?!?!  Mike... you know I'm one of the last one's to back Bosk, but you did kinda step in it yourself.  You stated that you full well know the reasons for masks, yet openly state you don't bother to wear a suitable mask.  There are countless studies (peer reviewed), that outline even 2-ply cloth masks reduce the spread, and have some benefit to the wearer.  Then you go on to say you're not bothered enough to do anything but wear a thin head band... and then make a comment about the effect of what you breathe in.

You kinda opened yourself up to the comments.  Let me ask you ... would you have been as bothered if I or someone else had made the comment, or are you just a tad sensitive to the post coming from Bosk?

Motherfucker, Chad. I don't wear a suitable mask for numerous reasons (mostly convenience and I'm tired of buying masks), but NOT because I'm some anti-medical mask knuckdragger. I flat-out have said this morning that unsuitable masks are more effective than wearing nothing at all, but that I don't feel they actually offer MUCH protection at all (thin material - probably not being washed - people touching masks and not worrying about washing their hands - etc.), and are more effective at calming people due to the appearance of having something over your mouth. That's it. What you breathe in matters as much as what you're breathing out. I don't understand why there is confusion on this. You don't breathe one way.

No one called you an anti-mask'r, or a kuckdragger.  Only trying to reconcile what seems like opposing statements.   

The only thing each and everyone of us can do is control ourselves.  Your rational for why you don't wear an appropriate mask is illogical to me. Even in this above post here, you acknowledge they don't do much, and imply you're only wearing a mask to help keep other people calm.  Personally, I do it because I can only control my actions - so I choose to do everything within my power.  I wear gloves when I'll be touching things in public places.  The jingle.family has 4-5 masks each, and we wash them each visit outside of the house. I wash or sanitize after anytime I've touched anything in public (we keep sanitizer in our vehicles)  I can't control what others do/don't do, only myself.  That's how I roll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 11:18:22 AM

On a different subtopic, I heard something this morning that I thought was interesting.  I radio commentator I was listening to suggested that the elderly be given less of a priority for the eventual vaccine, and that, e.g., grocery store workers be giving higher priority.  The reasoning is that there are workers out there in capacities that are crucial for our society and business infrastructure that, by virtue of the nature of their jobs, have to interact with others, so it is therefore better for the overall recovery of our society as a whole to protect those people first.  What do you all think of that?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 07, 2020, 11:23:06 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 11:04:16 AM

On topic, and back to the reasoning behind my post, I still legitimately don't understand why people don't understand what certain types of masks do, why, and in what context.  I'm not calling anyone out for making an informed decision that I happen to disagree with.  But I am legitimately bothered by the fact that this far along, a lot of those decisions are not informed, and are often based on dialog that perpetuates that misinformation.

People are bozos.  My pediatrician friend's stories about parents refusing to follow guidelines while their children have tested positive is mind blowing. 

I've always considered myself a selfish person, but I'm starting to think I might not be so bad given the way many Americans are handling this.

As Jingle said, you can only control yourself, so it's best to be educated and do the things you can to help everyone else, but many can't seem to be bothered educating themselves so they are clueless about what they can do to help everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 11:26:27 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 11:18:22 AM

On a different subtopic, I heard something this morning that I thought was interesting.  I radio commentator I was listening to suggested that the elderly be given less of a priority for the eventual vaccine, and that, e.g., grocery store workers be giving higher priority.  The reasoning is that there are workers out there in capacities that are crucial for our society and business infrastructure that, by virtue of the nature of their jobs, have to interact with others, so it is therefore better for the overall recovery of our society as a whole to protect those people first.  What do you all think of that?

For me that would depend on what constitutes "elderly". I work in a grocery store on the weekends, and if it came down to me or my 66 year old mother getting a vaccine, I'd give it to her every time. Assuming visiting bans are still in effect, I don't think it'd be the worst thing to not vaccinate the elderly patients of nursing homes (assuming that vaccination is required by all staff).

I see the point in the argument though, but think I'd rather see children, teachers, bus drivers, school officials, and the janitorial staff vaccinated before grocery store workers. Getting schools back to a normal schedule would do wonders for the mental health of a lot of parents right now and would mitigate a lot of the problems parents are having while working from home and juggling kids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on December 07, 2020, 11:27:59 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 11:18:22 AM

On a different subtopic, I heard something this morning that I thought was interesting.  I radio commentator I was listening to suggested that the elderly be given less of a priority for the eventual vaccine, and that, e.g., grocery store workers be giving higher priority.  The reasoning is that there are workers out there in capacities that are crucial for our society and business infrastructure that, by virtue of the nature of their jobs, have to interact with others, so it is therefore better for the overall recovery of our society as a whole to protect those people first.  What do you all think of that?

I've heard it described as making sure "essential" workers have access to it first.  My issue is that the definition essential is very broad - I'm essential because I work in insurance, in the financial sector.  But I sit behind a desk all day and don't come into much contact with people, especially since the pandemic began and I spend 4 days a week working at home. 

I don't agree with putting a kid stocking grocery shelves in place ahead of an elderly person (like my parents or in-laws) who have to walk through that store to buy their groceries. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 07, 2020, 11:31:02 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 09:23:02 AM

I mean actually yes I am using that same headband I wore to ProgPower over my mouth and have been doing that for 5 months. Started when my 'real' mask broke when I tried putting it on and I've stuck with it since because I don't want someone to cause a scene while I'm buying eggs and also I just like to follow the rules of an establishment. If anything I'm going to chastise people who wear their masks incorrectly more than those who don't, at this point

Imagine where we'd be if this was a universal sentiment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 07, 2020, 11:34:33 AM

I'm not too worried about the prioritization, there's a significant amount of people who are going to refuse it and there's going to be plenty of doses available in 2021. I think healthcare gets it first, then maybe the most vulnerable which isn't necessarily old people but ones with immunocompromised systems.  Then we can trickle down to the ones who are most exposed like essential workers and teachers/children. 

I think a lot of grocery store people who have been working throughout the whole pandemic are probably more likely to have some sort of immunity at this point than the people who have been locked up since this started.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:01:27 PM

I think children are near the bottom.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, children are both the least impacted and are at or near the bottom in terms of being vectors as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:01:27 PM

I think children are near the bottom.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, children are both the least impacted and are at or near the bottom in terms of being vectors as well.

They're generally accepted as the most useless contributors to society too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 07, 2020, 12:04:13 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:01:27 PM

I think children are near the bottom.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, children are both the least impacted and are at or near the bottom in terms of being vectors as well.

They're generally accepted as the most useless contributors to society too.

 :lol yea you may be right about them being least susceptible, but I lumped them in as it might get schools back on track sooner which helps society as a whole.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:05:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:01:27 PM

I think children are near the bottom.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, children are both the least impacted and are at or near the bottom in terms of being vectors as well.

They're generally accepted as the most useless contributors to society too.

You mean, besides politicians, right?  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 07, 2020, 12:14:35 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:05:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:01:27 PM

I think children are near the bottom.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, children are both the least impacted and are at or near the bottom in terms of being vectors as well.

They're generally accepted as the most useless contributors to society too.

You mean, besides politicians, right?  :biggrin:

I got to agree with bosk1 here.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 12:15:02 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:05:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:01:27 PM

I think children are near the bottom.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, children are both the least impacted and are at or near the bottom in terms of being vectors as well.

They're generally accepted as the most useless contributors to society too.

You mean, besides politicians, right?  :biggrin:

And the guys who install turn signals on BMWs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 07, 2020, 12:24:25 PM

BMWs come with turn signals now?  I've never...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 07, 2020, 12:38:08 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 12:01:27 PM

I think children are near the bottom.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, children are both the least impacted and are at or near the bottom in terms of being vectors as well.

They're generally accepted as the most useless contributors to society too.

To be fair, that's only cause we haven't realized the beauty of child labor here yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 07, 2020, 12:42:58 PM

Quote from: ReaperKK on December 06, 2020, 07:41:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

I just came down to Florida to see my brother, st.pete/Tampa area and ill tell that you would think covid doesn't exists here. The amount of people out everywhere with zero masks its astonishing.

I was in northern Georgia all week last week and it was hard to tell that there is even a pandemic going on.  Everywhere you go masks are "suggested" and it seems like maybe 1 in 100 people are masking up in public places. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 07, 2020, 12:50:03 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:55:51 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:30:02 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 07, 2020, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on December 07, 2020, 07:20:54 AM

I know people who wore masks everywhere they went but they still got it; I know people who have gone everywhere without masks and not gotten it. I really don't think treating the mask like the new Star of David is logical. That said, Rudy is indeed an idiot

I know people that got knocked up while using a condom and/or other forms of birth control. We should still advocate for their use even if not 100% effective.

did you compare getting pregnant to getting a disease

but, yes, I agree, although we should let the individual make their own choice, if we're really going to compare masks to condoms

I compared the effectiveness of the tools we use vs our desired outcomes. Just because it doesn't always work doesn't mean it's not an effective solution. Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent every death in a car, but they're a good idea. Occasionally a pressure release valve fails on a hot water heater and blows up someone's house, but I'd still prefer all hot water systems have them. Brushing your teeth wont prevent every instance of cavities, but not many people seem to balk at that routine. I'm not claiming that masks are 100% effective. However, they're the bare minimum to keep those around you safe. Pridefully not wearing one in an intimate setting like a courtroom isn't something we should be encouraging or entertaining as okay.

Yes, you are literally not telling me anything I don't already know. I agree with you. Just saying I don't think someone wearing a mask automatically means they're "better" or suddenly not gonna get it. A thin bandana that doesn't offer any medical grade protection from particles should, logically, be worthy of chastising too, but people are more concerned about the appearance rather than the effectiveness, it seems. Nobody says anything when I wear a super thin headband over my mouth, when it offers no protection, but the appearance comforts people, which isn't very logical

>expecting humans to be logical

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 07, 2020, 02:07:34 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 07, 2020, 12:24:25 PM

BMWs come with turn signals now?  I've never...

You and Chino can both fuck right off.     






(Full disclosure for everyone else:  technically I have four cars, and two of them are BMWs.  I've owned probably six or seven in my life... and my wife yells at me all the time for not using my turn signal.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 07, 2020, 02:09:59 PM

 :rollin :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 07, 2020, 02:13:34 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 07, 2020, 12:42:58 PM

Quote from: ReaperKK on December 06, 2020, 07:41:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

I just came down to Florida to see my brother, st.pete/Tampa area and ill tell that you would think covid doesn't exists here. The amount of people out everywhere with zero masks its astonishing.

I was in northern Georgia all week last week and it was hard to tell that there is even a pandemic going on.  Everywhere you go masks are "suggested" and it seems like maybe 1 in 100 people are masking up in public places.

Anywhere good?  I used to live in Atlanta, and the drive up through Rome to get to Tennessee was some of the most beautiful country I've ever seen, and we used to also drive up to the Dahlonega area a lot too.   Just beautiful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 07, 2020, 02:34:04 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 07, 2020, 12:42:58 PM

Quote from: ReaperKK on December 06, 2020, 07:41:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

I just came down to Florida to see my brother, st.pete/Tampa area and ill tell that you would think covid doesn't exists here. The amount of people out everywhere with zero masks its astonishing.

I was in northern Georgia all week last week and it was hard to tell that there is even a pandemic going on.  Everywhere you go masks are "suggested" and it seems like maybe 1 in 100 people are masking up in public places.

My sister drove down to my parents in Florida a couple weeks ago, and her reaction was pretty much the same.  It's like a night/day difference between living in FL vs NJ right now.  Having said that, when I go down, I don't plan on leaving the house for those 4 nights. 

I also see Jannus Live venue in St. Pete/Tampa Bay area (I think) is operating as normal with a Steel Panther show coming up soon

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 07, 2020, 02:45:42 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 07, 2020, 02:13:34 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 07, 2020, 12:42:58 PM

Quote from: ReaperKK on December 06, 2020, 07:41:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:52 AM

My Mom called me last night saying she really wants me to be in Florida for Christmas.  Said it was worth the risk due to mental health and most of my family is already down there (both sisters drove down already).  So I booked a flight today to go down with my sisters husband (who has already recovered from covid a couple months ago) and then to fly back solo and he will stay there longer and drive back with my sister at some future date.  I just hope this isn't set up to be like one of the stories you'll hear on the news.  I think I'll be getting tested before the flight to be safe as well and of course follow all precautions.

I just came down to Florida to see my brother, st.pete/Tampa area and ill tell that you would think covid doesn't exists here. The amount of people out everywhere with zero masks its astonishing.

I was in northern Georgia all week last week and it was hard to tell that there is even a pandemic going on.  Everywhere you go masks are "suggested" and it seems like maybe 1 in 100 people are masking up in public places.

Anywhere good?  I used to live in Atlanta, and the drive up through Rome to get to Tennessee was some of the most beautiful country I've ever seen, and we used to also drive up to the Dahlonega area a lot too.   Just beautiful.

Nothing special really, my son lives in Dallas and we stayed in a mediocre hotel in Hirem  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on December 08, 2020, 05:54:42 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 06, 2020, 08:42:53 AM

Stay safe you two.

thanks Jingle :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on December 09, 2020, 03:47:12 AM

There are a tremendous number of people in the U.S. who think that corporations are pure evil. Among the most despised by this segment are drug and pharma companies. Where would we be without these companies now? Hopefully some minds and hearts will be changed. A thanks and show of support by someone like AOC would be beneficial.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 09, 2020, 04:29:00 AM

Quote from: emtee on December 09, 2020, 03:47:12 AM

There are a tremendous number of people in the U.S. who think that corporations are pure evil. Among the most despised by this segment are drug and pharma companies. Where would we be without these companies now? Hopefully some minds and hearts will be changed. A thanks and show of support by someone like AOC would be beneficial.

In future generations this will be seen as a moment of mass hysteria against science and medicine. People will learn of the history of vaccines and how they were useful but how sometime in the early decades of the third millennium people started to consider vaccines evil, means of biomanipulation and something meant only to provide profit for big corporations (didn't see any complaints about literally everything else that is a profit for those providing it).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 09, 2020, 05:34:04 AM

There's plenty to criticize the US pharmaceutical industry for despite it being revolutionary. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54636002

The settlement follows years of investigation into claims that Purdue and other drug-makers encouraged over-prescription of opioids, leading to overdoses and addiction which strained public health and policing resources in cities and towns across the US.

Under the terms of the settlement, Purdue will admit to conspiring to defraud the US and violating anti-kickback laws in its distribution of the addictive painkillers.

Those included payments the firm made to healthcare companies and doctors to encourage prescribing the drugs, which were ultimately paid for by public health programmes.



They knew what they were doing. Someone ordered and reviewed a cost benefit analysis at some point and determined that the profit to be made off of over-pushing their drugs would outweigh the inevitable lawsuits. Their actions dicked the taxpayer and ruined thousands of families and lives. Call that whatever you want. I have no problem calling it evil.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on December 09, 2020, 05:43:12 AM

I haven't read anything that would indicate that the pharma industry is putting forth all this effort for free. I wouldn't be too quick project noble motives on them. These companies' past track records and Occam's razor would indicate they stand to gain a pretty big windfall out of all this...for years to come.

That being said, I can always hope. I did read the other day that Astrazeneca estimated $20.00 cost per shot...which doesn't sound too bad considering the effort to research, manufacture, and package the vaccine.

Edit: Ninja's by Chino

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 09, 2020, 06:24:06 AM

Quote from: Podaar on December 09, 2020, 05:43:12 AM

I haven't read anything that would indicate that the pharma industry is putting forth all this effort for free. I wouldn't be too quick project noble motives on them. These companies' past track records and Occam's razor would indicate they stand to gain a pretty big windfall out of all this...for years to come.

Of course they stand to gain from it, but making a profit does not excludes an actual good working vaccine. All of our favorite musicians stand to make a profit from their music, this doesn't mean they don't pour their hearts into it.

Everyone in this world makes everything for a profit, ourselves included at our jobs, but I don't get why only "big pharma" is evil if they profit from a vaccine. Yes, the specific cases of malpractice are bad and they need to be investigated. And yes, those doctors who made available their findings for free so that they would be available for everyone are encomiable. But making a profit does not always and necessarily imply "bad".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on December 09, 2020, 07:35:06 AM

I'm a businessman, I get profit and applaud it. I want them to make a profit.

I was more concerned with emtee's tone that the drug companies are somehow absolved a history of (IMO) obscene profits by making us a vaccine. The jury is still out on where they line up on the evil/good scale depending on what they charge for the vaccine.

Profiteering on misery is going to rub people the wrong way.

Edit: This could be more of a U.S. problem, though. We tend to pay way more for drugs than other counties. At least, that's my understanding.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:47:36 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 09, 2020, 06:24:06 AM

Quote from: Podaar on December 09, 2020, 05:43:12 AM

I haven't read anything that would indicate that the pharma industry is putting forth all this effort for free. I wouldn't be too quick project noble motives on them. These companies' past track records and Occam's razor would indicate they stand to gain a pretty big windfall out of all this...for years to come.

Of course they stand to gain from it, but making a profit does not excludes an actual good working vaccine. All of our favorite musicians stand to make a profit from their music, this doesn't mean they don't pour their hearts into it.

Everyone in this world makes everything for a profit, ourselves included at our jobs, but I don't get why only "big pharma" is evil if they profit from a vaccine. Yes, the specific cases of malpractice are bad and they need to be investigated. And yes, those doctors who made available their findings for free so that they would be available for everyone are encomiable. But making a profit does not always and necessarily imply "bad".

Except, in the case of corporations, it does, it seems.  I'm in agreement with you; it's a pet peeve of mine that so many people think that corporations should be carrying our societal water.   They are somehow responsible for our climate, our healthcare, our social mores, our familial economic choices...   frankly I think we ask too much of our corporations, in the sense that instead of making them RESPONSIBLE for this stuff, we ought to take them out of the loop entirely.   It's INSANE to me that we have continued to tie healthcare to our jobs in that way.   

So what if they stand to make a profit on this?   How do we expect them to pay for the scientists, the equipment, the time, the materials, the intellectual property, to achieve these milestones?   What about the other firms that tried and failed (the White House apparently did not give Pfizer the exclusive rights to the vaccine, anticipating that as many as six firms would ultimately have a workable vaccine (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/05/operation-warp-speed-coronavirus-vaccine-shortfall/); a smart move in most instances, except the one where only Pfizer of the six achieved approval.)

And in case it matters, I've long written that rather than Obama cutting a backroom deal with Pharma to guarantee them billions in profit in advance of the introduction of the ACA, we should have agreed to foot the development costs for new drugs; that way we - meaning the government - could better control what was developed and marketed.  "R&D" is, as I understand it, a large part of the costs of a pharmaceutical (Millah can correct me if I'm wrong) and to take that risk out of the equation would be beneficial to all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 09, 2020, 08:40:35 AM

The US Pharma industry is absolutely bizarre to me.  The fact that about 1/3 of the commercials I see on US airwaves are for drugs is ... bizarre is the only word I can conjure up.  Never once have I seen an add on Canadian TV with the words "ask your doctor about" for prescription meds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 08:51:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 09, 2020, 08:40:35 AM

The US Pharma industry is absolutely bizarre to me.  The fact that about 1/3 of the commercials I see on US airwaves are for drugs is ... bizarre is the only word I can conjure up.  Never once have I seen an add on Canadian TV with the words "ask your doctor about" for prescription meds.

I first heard about that - the idea to market directly to patients, and get them to "pressure" their doctors for the latest and greatest - in business school, and from a purely marketing standpoint, it's GENIUS.  It's the perfect storm; the patient isn't paying directly for it (that's insurance), the doctors don't want to appear out of touch or as if they don't care about the best care for their patients, and the pharmaceuticals get to save on what I used to call the "pharma stewardesses", the hot sales woman that went around handing out samples and testers (think Penny on the Big Bang Theory latter seasons).   

Critics have claimed that it led to "doctor shopping" and/or to doctor's prescribing medication for the wrong reasons, but I honestly have never experienced that myself (though I have little experience with the prescription of behavioral medication). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 09:15:39 AM

@ Stads... our gov't most certainly does "make" us do some of these things - building codes, health codes for the food industry, seatbelts for drivers, other safety standards for auto manufacturers ... the condom analogy falls apart (except for those knowing they have an STD), as does the teethbrushing, but the others do not.  As was noted, individual lack of compliance doesn't affect others in those senses.  Where gov't (imo) has the right to be involved is when said lack of compliance can directly affect the well-being of others.

Some of those are basic simple science, physical science. A seatbelt is just physics, and the Gov't realized this, "You go fast, and hit a wall, without a restraint, you will go splat into the wall" (Cars were invented not that long ago, and are now even faster and the body isn't made of the strong metal like the cars before). If you build a building that isn't up to code, basically shoddy construction work, your house will collapse and fall. If you don't follow health code you or your customers will get sick. It's like knowing getting punched in the nose will cause a nosebleed. It's not for the well-being of others.

The government, implemented those as a means for people's safety, and to regulate the safety of the customer. All those are company related. They made seatbelts a law, as they saw people not wearing seatbelts and were tired of the high death rate from an automobile crash that could easily have been prevented by a simple restraint. That's an easy thing to control. As the car doesn't have legs and is alive.

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

People on the other hand, are not easily controlled. It's why we need an authoritarian figure to discipline, correct mistakes, and guide them to not make those mistakes again while being beneficial to society. It's a process, first you discipline, then you correct their mistakes, then you should guide them to be a better person in society. The US, doesn't do the last process. They just toss them back in society, and expect them to guide themselves, and correct their own mistakes. It's the concept of Subterranea, being secluded for so long and being let out into the world without guidance, it's why the main character ends up going back to the Provider, as a secluded prisoner needs that guidance or else they'll just revert back to what is familiar and comforting for them, which is to the provider of the Prison System.

It's why I say, are we really self-reliant or are we too reliant on "The Other"? I can tell you now, we are not self-reliant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 09, 2020, 09:36:35 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 08:51:15 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 09, 2020, 08:40:35 AM

The US Pharma industry is absolutely bizarre to me.  The fact that about 1/3 of the commercials I see on US airwaves are for drugs is ... bizarre is the only word I can conjure up.  Never once have I seen an add on Canadian TV with the words "ask your doctor about" for prescription meds.

I first heard about that - the idea to market directly to patients, and get them to "pressure" their doctors for the latest and greatest - in business school, and from a purely marketing standpoint, it's GENIUS.  It's the perfect storm; the patient isn't paying directly for it (that's insurance), the doctors don't want to appear out of touch or as if they don't care about the best care for their patients, and the pharmaceuticals get to save on what I used to call the "pharma stewardesses", the hot sales woman that went around handing out samples and testers (think Penny on the Big Bang Theory latter seasons).   

Critics have claimed that it led to "doctor shopping" and/or to doctor's prescribing medication for the wrong reasons, but I honestly have never experienced that myself (though I have little experience with the prescription of behavioral medication).

I have 1st hand.  My primary pushed Nexium on me.  At the tie a month prescription was $48.00 with insurance.  I found out that Omeprazole worked the same way and cost through my insurance $5.00 for a 2 month prescription.  I had to ask him if I could use those and he said yes.  Unless I asked him he never would have told me the cost break.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:38:46 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 11:18:22 AM

On a different subtopic, I heard something this morning that I thought was interesting.  I radio commentator I was listening to suggested that the elderly be given less of a priority for the eventual vaccine, and that, e.g., grocery store workers be giving higher priority.  The reasoning is that there are workers out there in capacities that are crucial for our society and business infrastructure that, by virtue of the nature of their jobs, have to interact with others, so it is therefore better for the overall recovery of our society as a whole to protect those people first.  What do you all think of that?

So, my job is now at risk, If I do not want to take a vaccine? (Guarantee this is being said)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:49:33 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

So do you also give up the right to sue a guy that hit you for injuries that could've been avoided had you been wearing your seatbelt, and could your medical costs not be covered for the same reason?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 09:51:32 AM

Quote from: Podaar on December 09, 2020, 07:35:06 AM

I'm a businessman, I get profit and applaud it. I want them to make a profit.

I was more concerned with emtee's tone that the drug companies are somehow absolved a history of (IMO) obscene profits by making us a vaccine. The jury is still out on where they line up on the evil/good scale depending on what they charge for the vaccine.

Profiteering on misery is going to rub people the wrong way.

Edit: This could be more of a U.S. problem, though. We tend to pay way more for drugs than other counties. At least, that's my understanding.

The problem is, of course, "obscene".  To some, a naked boob is "obscene", and to others, the line is MUCH different.  The same here with profit. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (by way of example) doesn't get to be the arbiter of what's "obscene" or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:52:43 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 07, 2020, 11:18:22 AM

On a different subtopic, I heard something this morning that I thought was interesting.  I radio commentator I was listening to suggested that the elderly be given less of a priority for the eventual vaccine, and that, e.g., grocery store workers be giving higher priority. The reasoning is that there are workers out there in capacities that are crucial for our society and business infrastructure that, by virtue of the nature of their jobs, have to interact with others, so it is therefore better for the overall recovery of our society as a whole to protect those people first.  What do you all think of that?

I'm all for that!! ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:54:17 AM

Quote from: emtee on December 09, 2020, 03:47:12 AM

There are a tremendous number of people in the U.S. who think that corporations are pure evil. Among the most despised by this segment are drug and pharma companies. Where would we be without these companies now? Hopefully some minds and hearts will be changed. A thanks and show of support by someone like AOC would be beneficial.

1. I don't trust drug or pharma companies because in the end, they're pushing a product. If people understand, there are other alternatives, that could be used instead of their products, why would people buy their products. It's proven, a diet change, can help reverse some symptoms and effects of illnesses.

2. We have become too reliant on "The other" for the bare necessities of life. The big one is food. We can't even farm our own food, much anymore, we rely on the big box stores for our food supply. Processed Foods, and Foods that have no Nutritional Value, affect our health. If we were more self-reliant on our basic necessity of Food, we wouldn't have to rely on those big box stores for our food supply. And won't be in panic mode if those supply chains were to be unlinked.


I do recognize there is potential for good things from those companies. Like the creation of Epi-pens, for those serious allergic reactions. Drugs, that are used for cuts, abrasions, to help you while under surgery (Anesthesia). Foods, that are not of this region, being made available.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:58:24 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 09, 2020, 05:34:04 AM

There's plenty to criticize the US pharmaceutical industry for despite it being revolutionary. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54636002

The settlement follows years of investigation into claims that Purdue and other drug-makers encouraged over-prescription of opioids, leading to overdoses and addiction which strained public health and policing resources in cities and towns across the US.

Under the terms of the settlement, Purdue will admit to conspiring to defraud the US and violating anti-kickback laws in its distribution of the addictive painkillers.

Those included payments the firm made to healthcare companies and doctors to encourage prescribing the drugs, which were ultimately paid for by public health programmes.



They knew what they were doing. Someone ordered and reviewed a cost benefit analysis at some point and determined that the profit to be made off of over-pushing their drugs would outweigh the inevitable lawsuits. Their actions dicked the taxpayer and ruined thousands of families and lives. Call that whatever you want. I have no problem calling it evil.

Thanks, for helping prove my point. If they did this and got away with it, until they got exposed. What makes you think these companies are not doing this with the current Vaccine? It's why I question, the rush for this vaccine. It's in our history, if people can get away with it, people will go that route. There are sinister people in this world.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:07:11 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 09:15:39 AM

@ Stads... our gov't most certainly does "make" us do some of these things - building codes, health codes for the food industry, seatbelts for drivers, other safety standards for auto manufacturers ... the condom analogy falls apart (except for those knowing they have an STD), as does the teethbrushing, but the others do not.  As was noted, individual lack of compliance doesn't affect others in those senses.  Where gov't (imo) has the right to be involved is when said lack of compliance can directly affect the well-being of others.

Some of those are basic simple science, physical science. A seatbelt is just physics, and the Gov't realized this, "You go fast, and hit a wall, without a restraint, you will go splat into the wall" (Cars were invented not that long ago, and are now even faster and the body isn't made of the strong metal like the cars before). If you build a building that isn't up to code, basically shoddy construction work, your house will collapse and fall. If you don't follow health code you or your customers will get sick. It's like knowing getting punched in the nose will cause a nosebleed. It's not for the well-being of others.

The government, implemented those as a means for people's safety, and to regulate the safety of the customer. All those are company related. They made seatbelts a law, as they saw people not wearing seatbelts and were tired of the high death rate from an automobile crash that could easily have been prevented by a simple restraint. That's an easy thing to control. As the car doesn't have legs and is alive.

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

People on the other hand, are not easily controlled. It's why we need an authoritarian figure to discipline, correct mistakes, and guide them to not make those mistakes again while being beneficial to society. It's a process, first you discipline, then you correct their mistakes, then you should guide them to be a better person in society. The US, doesn't do the last process. They just toss them back in society, and expect them to guide themselves, and correct their own mistakes. It's the concept of Subterranea, being secluded for so long and being let out into the world without guidance, it's why the main character ends up going back to the Provider, as a secluded prisoner needs that guidance or else they'll just revert back to what is familiar and comforting for them, which is to the provider of the Prison System.

It's why I say, are we really self-reliant or are we too reliant on "The Other"? I can tell you now, we are not self-reliant.

It's all so arbitrary, though, and is a big reason why I wrote what I did about America and our thirst for "quick and easy".  None of this is for the greater good.   NONE of it.  It's what's EASY.  If we cared about our drivers, getting a driver's license wouldn't be as easy as signing up for a magazine subscription.  I hear often (and will hear here, no doubt) that the seatbelt is for SOCIETAL good, but it's not.   It's for the INSURANCE company's good, but not society.   If they wanted to improve things for society, we would prevent the accident to begin with.   We'd install all cars with a jammer to prevent cellphone use in the car.  Instead, we're equipping them with blue tooth, and Alexa and touch screens and a 100 other things to distract us from the road.  We'd teach our kids how to really DRIVE a car, as opposed to "parallel park".   We'd renew that DRIVER'S ED - not just the license - every four years.   The idea that we need "government" to protect us is a delusion, at least up to the point that we're doing all we can to protect ourselves first, and we're nowhere close to that now.

I've come to view "getting government involved" as sort of an adult version of tattling to the teacher in grade school; it's a way to get people to do what you WANT them to do when they're simply doing things you don't like.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 09, 2020, 10:09:01 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:07:11 AM

  I hear often (and will hear here, no doubt) that the seatbelt is for SOCIETAL good, but it's not.   It's for the INSURANCE company's good, but not society. 

As are carriage corrals, which is the point I've been making.




OK..carry on...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:15:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:47:36 AM

Except, in the case of corporations, it does, it seems.  I'm in agreement with you; it's a pet peeve of mine that so many people think that corporations should be carrying our societal water.   They are somehow responsible for our climate, our healthcare, our social mores, our familial economic choices...   frankly I think we ask too much of our corporations, in the sense that instead of making them RESPONSIBLE for this stuff, we ought to take them out of the loop entirely.   It's INSANE to me that we have continued to tie healthcare to our jobs in that way.   

This goes into not being "Self-Reliant" and being too reliant on "The other". We, Humanity, have evolved to be more reliant on "the other", that we lost the knowledge of being "Self-Reliant", which includes Growing and Hunting our own food, a bare necessity of life.

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:47:36 AM

So what if they stand to make a profit on this?   How do we expect them to pay for the scientists, the equipment, the time, the materials, the intellectual property, to achieve these milestones?   What about the other firms that tried and failed (the White House apparently did not give Pfizer the exclusive rights to the vaccine, anticipating that as many as six firms would ultimately have a workable vaccine (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/05/operation-warp-speed-coronavirus-vaccine-shortfall/); a smart move in most instances, except the one where only Pfizer of the six achieved approval.)

For one, you'd think The Scientists, would do these things not out of money, but for the betterment of humanity in general. You'd think those scientists would see the betterment of humanity as payment enough for their work. Same can be said to the healthcare workers. To me, that is the definition of Greed. Doing things because of the money involved (or rewards) and not out of the kindness of your own heart (expecting nothing in return for your work).

The government should be funding the supplies, materials, and the equipment, for these scientists/healthcare workers, to do what needs to be done. But then, you have government being selective with their research "NO, it's forbidden to research this, and we won't fund you the supplies, materials, and equipment, if you decide to research it." (Cannabis and Hemp).

I don't care if they make a profit. It's a part of a Capitalist Society. I can choose not to buy their product. As I don't do now anyways, and won't ever. That's where I know that company is a greedy company and only cares about profits, and not the betterment of Society, and humanity as whole. Which would make them Sinister.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:18:57 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:58:24 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 09, 2020, 05:34:04 AM

There's plenty to criticize the US pharmaceutical industry for despite it being revolutionary. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54636002

The settlement follows years of investigation into claims that Purdue and other drug-makers encouraged over-prescription of opioids, leading to overdoses and addiction which strained public health and policing resources in cities and towns across the US.

Under the terms of the settlement, Purdue will admit to conspiring to defraud the US and violating anti-kickback laws in its distribution of the addictive painkillers.

Those included payments the firm made to healthcare companies and doctors to encourage prescribing the drugs, which were ultimately paid for by public health programmes.



They knew what they were doing. Someone ordered and reviewed a cost benefit analysis at some point and determined that the profit to be made off of over-pushing their drugs would outweigh the inevitable lawsuits. Their actions dicked the taxpayer and ruined thousands of families and lives. Call that whatever you want. I have no problem calling it evil.

Thanks, for helping prove my point. If they did this and got away with it, until they got exposed. What makes you think these companies are not doing this with the current Vaccine? It's why I question, the rush for this vaccine. It's in our history, if people can get away with it, people will go that route. There are sinister people in this world.

Respectfully, though, you're mixing apples and oranges.   There's no dispute that opioids are ineffective for the purposes intended, and some purposes that are not intended.   Oddly, the case against Purdue is implicitly predicated on the drug being TOO effective.  If the vaccine kills the virus and keeps us safe, that's something that is independent of malicious behavior on the part of the pharmaceuticals.

This borders on general trust, not trust of the pharmaceuticals.  For this vaccine to be a long con on the global population would take a conspiracy of unprecedented proportions, involving ciorporations, government regulators, multiple national governments, and probably the Knights Templar and the Illuminati.

I'll be fair here; I'm one to allow people to make mistakes, and I don't believe in promising outcomes, only opportunity.  Having said that, I do think it's an additional variable when you factor in psychological elements like addiction (this applies to the settlements against the tobacco companies).    I think it's different when the nature of the product makes you physically and mentally more likely to use the product.  Social media factors in here as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 10:09:01 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:07:11 AM

  I hear often (and will hear here, no doubt) that the seatbelt is for SOCIETAL good, but it's not.   It's for the INSURANCE company's good, but not society. 

As are carriage corrals, which is the point I've been making.




OK..carry on...

That's different.  We're not animals.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:20:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:49:33 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

So do you also give up the right to sue a guy that hit you for injuries that could've been avoided had you been wearing your seatbelt, and could your medical costs not be covered for the same reason?

Yes, because I was irresponsible for not wearing that seatbelt, so why should I sue someone for injuries that were caused by my irresponsibility. If I do sue someone, I am just being an asshole.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:32:18 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:15:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:47:36 AM

Except, in the case of corporations, it does, it seems.  I'm in agreement with you; it's a pet peeve of mine that so many people think that corporations should be carrying our societal water.   They are somehow responsible for our climate, our healthcare, our social mores, our familial economic choices...   frankly I think we ask too much of our corporations, in the sense that instead of making them RESPONSIBLE for this stuff, we ought to take them out of the loop entirely.   It's INSANE to me that we have continued to tie healthcare to our jobs in that way.   

This goes into not being "Self-Reliant" and being too reliant on "The other". We, Humanity, have evolved to be more reliant on "the other", that we lost the knowledge of being "Self-Reliant", which includes Growing and Hunting our own food, a bare necessity of life.

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:47:36 AM

So what if they stand to make a profit on this?   How do we expect them to pay for the scientists, the equipment, the time, the materials, the intellectual property, to achieve these milestones?   What about the other firms that tried and failed (the White House apparently did not give Pfizer the exclusive rights to the vaccine, anticipating that as many as six firms would ultimately have a workable vaccine (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/05/operation-warp-speed-coronavirus-vaccine-shortfall/); a smart move in most instances, except the one where only Pfizer of the six achieved approval.)

For one, you'd think The Scientists, would do these things not out of money, but for the betterment of humanity in general. You'd think those scientists would see the betterment of humanity as payment enough for their work. Same can be said to the healthcare workers. To me, that is the definition of Greed. Doing things because of the money involved (or rewards) and not out of the kindness of your own heart (expecting nothing in return for your work).

The government should be funding the supplies, materials, and the equipment, for these scientists/healthcare workers, to do what needs to be done. But then, you have government being selective with their research "NO, it's forbidden to research this, and we won't fund you the supplies, materials, and equipment, if you decide to research it." (Cannabis and Hemp).

I don't care if they make a profit. It's a part of a Capitalist Society. I can choose not to buy their product. As I don't do now anyways, and won't ever. That's where I know that company is a greedy company and only cares about profits, and not the betterment of Society, and humanity as whole. Which would make them Sinister.

That's a philosophical question though; why should scientists and healthcare workers shoulder that burden?  Who's going to pay for the equipment, schooling, research, raw materials and testing for all this "free science"?   My cousin is a nurse in Connecticut, and that kid has worked her balls off for the last 10 months; who was going to pay her rent, buy her food, pay her car payments, etc. etc. while she was giving all this care out of the goodness of her heart?    I choose to think of "capitalism" slightly different than most; it's no different than communism except there are transfer payments.  It's an additional step.  And the "corruption" (in the sense of not being pure) of capitalism is greed, while the "corruption" of communism is socialist totalitarianism.  They both can be abused, but in the purer form facilitate a utility. 

I'm not a nurse or doctor.  I wouldn't make a good one as I don't like blood or mutilation.  So I do what my skillset offers, in that I can think strategically, and I'm good at negotiations.  So I let my cousin - and thousands of men and women like her - tend to the sick and wounded, and I offer my support to society in the way I can.  Rather than directly trade "legal services" with each and every medical person (or vice versa), we trade our individual skills for "money", a placeholder for future (other) services rendered.    We trust our corporations and institutions to spread the costs; Pfizer buys the research and development equipment and know-how to apply to COVID, HIV, the flu, erectile dysfunction, and psoriasis, and the resources necessary to get the job done, so that each individual person doesn't have to trial and error their way to a COVID cure.    And in turn the corporation takes the risk; if the doctor has a bright idea for a cure of something, she can test it, model it, formulate it, using the corporate resources she didn't have to buy for a one-off use.   If it's successful, the corporation shares in that windfall, and if it fails, the corporation takes that hit almost exclusively.  It costs BILLIONS for a successful drug trial run (i.e. market approval), and yet nine out of ten potential drugs DON'T get that approval.  (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/05/operation-warp-speed-coronavirus-vaccine-shortfall/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on December 09, 2020, 10:36:41 AM

"emtee's tone"

My post had a tone? I was praising the blessing coming our way via companies that are widely hated.

Whatever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:39:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:07:11 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 07, 2020, 09:15:39 AM

@ Stads... our gov't most certainly does "make" us do some of these things - building codes, health codes for the food industry, seatbelts for drivers, other safety standards for auto manufacturers ... the condom analogy falls apart (except for those knowing they have an STD), as does the teethbrushing, but the others do not.  As was noted, individual lack of compliance doesn't affect others in those senses.  Where gov't (imo) has the right to be involved is when said lack of compliance can directly affect the well-being of others.

Some of those are basic simple science, physical science. A seatbelt is just physics, and the Gov't realized this, "You go fast, and hit a wall, without a restraint, you will go splat into the wall" (Cars were invented not that long ago, and are now even faster and the body isn't made of the strong metal like the cars before). If you build a building that isn't up to code, basically shoddy construction work, your house will collapse and fall. If you don't follow health code you or your customers will get sick. It's like knowing getting punched in the nose will cause a nosebleed. It's not for the well-being of others.

The government, implemented those as a means for people's safety, and to regulate the safety of the customer. All those are company related. They made seatbelts a law, as they saw people not wearing seatbelts and were tired of the high death rate from an automobile crash that could easily have been prevented by a simple restraint. That's an easy thing to control. As the car doesn't have legs and is alive.

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

People on the other hand, are not easily controlled. It's why we need an authoritarian figure to discipline, correct mistakes, and guide them to not make those mistakes again while being beneficial to society. It's a process, first you discipline, then you correct their mistakes, then you should guide them to be a better person in society. The US, doesn't do the last process. They just toss them back in society, and expect them to guide themselves, and correct their own mistakes. It's the concept of Subterranea, being secluded for so long and being let out into the world without guidance, it's why the main character ends up going back to the Provider, as a secluded prisoner needs that guidance or else they'll just revert back to what is familiar and comforting for them, which is to the provider of the Prison System.

It's why I say, are we really self-reliant or are we too reliant on "The Other"? I can tell you now, we are not self-reliant.

It's all so arbitrary, though, and is a big reason why I wrote what I did about America and our thirst for "quick and easy".  None of this is for the greater good.   NONE of it.  It's what's EASY.  If we cared about our drivers, getting a driver's license wouldn't be as easy as signing up for a magazine subscription.  I hear often (and will hear here, no doubt) that the seatbelt is for SOCIETAL good, but it's not.   It's for the INSURANCE company's good, but not society.   If they wanted to improve things for society, we would prevent the accident to begin with.   We'd install all cars with a jammer to prevent cellphone use in the car.  Instead, we're equipping them with blue tooth, and Alexa and touch screens and a 100 other things to distract us from the road.  We'd teach our kids how to really DRIVE a car, as opposed to "parallel park".   We'd renew that DRIVER'S ED - not just the license - every four years.   The idea that we need "government" to protect us is a delusion, at least up to the point that we're doing all we can to protect ourselves first, and we're nowhere close to that now.

I've come to view "getting government involved" as sort of an adult version of tattling to the teacher in grade school; it's a way to get people to do what you WANT them to do when they're simply doing things you don't like.

Yup, And I agree. I see that, especially within my community. Us as a natives, once understood this, but not many do anymore.

I really noticed the "quick and easy" got more intense when I stopped driving due to my DWI. I haven't drove for 5 years, and a couple months ago, got myself a car and a license again. What I noticed is people are driving much more faster, and seem to be in a rush. Constantly, riding my ass, or maneuvering in a hasty manner. And at the lines at Chik-Fil-A, I am amazed they noticed too and got smart to create another system to deal with the "quick and easy" demands of the customer.

I like that you brought up installing cell phone jammers. My friend said the same exact thing, only he used Interlocks. Our state is a great example, we have a high DWI rate, and mortality rate from it, yet, our state decides to praise the growing Brewing Industry, because "Free Money...Give me, give me, give me". Rather than doing a "Mandatory Interlock" since people can't choose to not drive, and we don't have good public transportation either, they make the penalties higher, and make us pay more for this mistake, which many do not have the means to do, and those people suffer from Alcoholism (which isn't fun at all), and no one will want to drink if they can't drive, because our public transportation is shit.


There is the easy way, which is quick and fast but isn't necessarily beneficial. Or there's the other way, which is more work and a bit harder and more time consuming, but it's simple and more beneficial. It's why my people were agricultural people (there's other reasons, but I am not going to go into that here).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:41:35 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:20:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:49:33 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

So do you also give up the right to sue a guy that hit you for injuries that could've been avoided had you been wearing your seatbelt, and could your medical costs not be covered for the same reason?

Yes, because I was irresponsible for not wearing that seatbelt, so why should I sue someone for injuries that were caused by my irresponsibility. If I do sue someone, I am just being an asshole.

Did you not wearing the seatbelt CAUSE the accident?   Let the jury decide if you get $1,000,000 or $1, but if you didn't cause the accident, why should your seatbelt or not drive the decision to sue?    You'd have been fine if you never had to go through the windshield to begin with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 11:02:08 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:32:18 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:15:50 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:47:36 AM

Except, in the case of corporations, it does, it seems.  I'm in agreement with you; it's a pet peeve of mine that so many people think that corporations should be carrying our societal water.   They are somehow responsible for our climate, our healthcare, our social mores, our familial economic choices...   frankly I think we ask too much of our corporations, in the sense that instead of making them RESPONSIBLE for this stuff, we ought to take them out of the loop entirely.   It's INSANE to me that we have continued to tie healthcare to our jobs in that way.   

This goes into not being "Self-Reliant" and being too reliant on "The other". We, Humanity, have evolved to be more reliant on "the other", that we lost the knowledge of being "Self-Reliant", which includes Growing and Hunting our own food, a bare necessity of life.

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:47:36 AM

So what if they stand to make a profit on this?   How do we expect them to pay for the scientists, the equipment, the time, the materials, the intellectual property, to achieve these milestones?   What about the other firms that tried and failed (the White House apparently did not give Pfizer the exclusive rights to the vaccine, anticipating that as many as six firms would ultimately have a workable vaccine (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/05/operation-warp-speed-coronavirus-vaccine-shortfall/); a smart move in most instances, except the one where only Pfizer of the six achieved approval.)

For one, you'd think The Scientists, would do these things not out of money, but for the betterment of humanity in general. You'd think those scientists would see the betterment of humanity as payment enough for their work. Same can be said to the healthcare workers. To me, that is the definition of Greed. Doing things because of the money involved (or rewards) and not out of the kindness of your own heart (expecting nothing in return for your work).

The government should be funding the supplies, materials, and the equipment, for these scientists/healthcare workers, to do what needs to be done. But then, you have government being selective with their research "NO, it's forbidden to research this, and we won't fund you the supplies, materials, and equipment, if you decide to research it." (Cannabis and Hemp).

I don't care if they make a profit. It's a part of a Capitalist Society. I can choose not to buy their product. As I don't do now anyways, and won't ever. That's where I know that company is a greedy company and only cares about profits, and not the betterment of Society, and humanity as whole. Which would make them Sinister.

That's a philosophical question though; why should scientists and healthcare workers shoulder that burden?  Who's going to pay for the equipment, schooling, research, raw materials and testing for all this "free science"?   My cousin is a nurse in Connecticut, and that kid has worked her balls off for the last 10 months; who was going to pay her rent, buy her food, pay her car payments, etc. etc. while she was giving all this care out of the goodness of her heart?    I choose to think of "capitalism" slightly different than most; it's no different than communism except there are transfer payments.  It's an additional step.  And the "corruption" (in the sense of not being pure) of capitalism is greed, while the "corruption" of communism is socialist totalitarianism.  They both can be abused, but in the purer form facilitate a utility. 

I know it's philosophical. I tend to pose those questions a lot, mainly because they are questions, I feel, need to be asked right now.

Before the invention of money. We were people whom traded and bartered. I would trade, my fruits, my crafts, and items of necessity, for another item of necessity "the other" has that I do not but I also need. In return, "the other" is getting what they needed but didn't have. You had to know how to Farm, or make those crafts in order to survive. It's how slavery became a trade. People's Hard work and Labor was a form of trade and barter.

With the invention of money, we have 1 thing, that replaces "the crafts, fruits, and items of necessity". That 1 thing has become the "item of necessity", in order to get items we need to survive. It's made us rely on that 1 thing to give to the 1 person that makes those items of necessity.

This is in response to your question of "why should scientists and healthcare workers shoulder that burden?  Who's going to pay for the equipment, schooling, research, raw materials and testing for all this "free science"?" Because there is a reason why we Natives (or my ancestors/Tribe/Clan anyways) never had the concept of money. We were like "What the fuck is this" when we put out our hand for a handshake and the white man put a coin in his hand instead.

  "And the "corruption" (in the sense of not being pure) of capitalism is greed, while the "corruption" of communism is socialist totalitarianism.  They both can be abused, but in the purer form facilitate a utility."

That is a great quote, as It explains, my view of...I can't find the term so i'll say governments. Each one has a benefit to us as a collective humanity. It's when these governments get corrupted is when the bad begins to happen. It's why we have to find a balance between them all. And find out when the right time and place to use that certain government style. Like Socially we could be communist, Lawfully we are authoritarian, Capitalist in our ways of keeping resources from depleting, etc....It all depends on what aspects of life each one works better in. It's like knowing which farmer grows the best produce, and using that farmer to grow the supply for everybody, as that farmer has the knowledge and understanding of what that plants benefits are for humanity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 11:16:08 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:41:35 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:20:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:49:33 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

So do you also give up the right to sue a guy that hit you for injuries that could've been avoided had you been wearing your seatbelt, and could your medical costs not be covered for the same reason?

Yes, because I was irresponsible for not wearing that seatbelt, so why should I sue someone for injuries that were caused by my irresponsibility. If I do sue someone, I am just being an asshole.

Did you not wearing the seatbelt CAUSE the accident?   Let the jury decide if you get $1,000,000 or $1, but if you didn't cause the accident, why should your seatbelt or not drive the decision to sue?    You'd have been fine if you never had to go through the windshield to begin with.

 I don't know how me not wearing a seatbelt can cause an accident, other than me forgetting about it and putting it on, yet losing control of the wheel or not paying attention to the traffic while I am doing that task. Wouldn't the cause then be distracted driving?

It shouldn't drive my decision to sue. It's why I would never sue for it.

And yup, I understand the physics of "If I go fast and don't have a restraint, and hit a brick wall, I will go through the window and go splat" so I put on my seatbelt. It's actually saved my life, and in turn let me save my friend from getting his face ripped to shreds.


In other words, I understand the risks that are involved in putting an unknown substance inside your body. And with the Trauma still embedded in me and my people. I will not take it. But, I don't mind if you guys do. Because if it works the way they say it should, then you should have no worries about me deciding to risk my health. As that won't be a problem right, as that's why we are locking down, wearing masks, and going through this circus, is to ease the pain until a vaccine/remedy is made to slow down the burden placed on our health systems.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 11:24:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 11:16:08 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 10:41:35 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 10:20:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:49:33 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 09:27:46 AM

With the seatbelt analogy. I may choose to wear a seatbelt, but I should know, if I don't I risk getting thrown and going splat. But If I decide not to, I chose not to, and that is my choice, and I accept the consequences of that choice, whether good or bad.

So do you also give up the right to sue a guy that hit you for injuries that could've been avoided had you been wearing your seatbelt, and could your medical costs not be covered for the same reason?

Yes, because I was irresponsible for not wearing that seatbelt, so why should I sue someone for injuries that were caused by my irresponsibility. If I do sue someone, I am just being an asshole.

Did you not wearing the seatbelt CAUSE the accident?   Let the jury decide if you get $1,000,000 or $1, but if you didn't cause the accident, why should your seatbelt or not drive the decision to sue?    You'd have been fine if you never had to go through the windshield to begin with.

 I don't know how me not wearing a seatbelt can cause an accident, other than me forgetting about it and putting it on, yet losing control of the wheel or not paying attention to the traffic while I am doing that task. Wouldn't the cause then be distracted driving?

It shouldn't drive my decision to sue. It's why I would never sue for it.

And yup, I understand the physics of "If I go fast and don't have a restraint, and hit a brick wall, I will go through the window and go splat" so I put on my seatbelt. It's actually saved my life, and in turn let me save my friend from getting his face ripped to shreds.


In other words, I understand the risks that are involved in putting an unknown substance inside your body. And with the Trauma still embedded in me and my people. I will not take it. But, I don't mind if you guys do. Because if it works the way they say it should, then you should have no worries about me deciding to risk my health. As that won't be a problem right, as that's why we are locking down, wearing masks, and going through this circus, is to ease the pain until a vaccine/remedy is made to slow down the burden placed on our health systems.

I think we crossed wires; I was going for something different.   I read you to say "why would I sue someone for my injuries if I wasn't wearing a seatbelt; that's my responsibility."   And while I agree with you, that assumes a lot.  There was STILL an accident, independent of your seatbelt use, and there was likely damage to the cars.  Whether you sue or not shouldn't be predicated on whether you were wearing a seatbelt or not, IF they caused the accident to begin with.  It's just the measure of your damages that would be affected (some might argue you have a duty to mitigate your damages, by wearing that seatbelt).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 09, 2020, 11:35:35 AM

My seatbelt analogy took a turn far from the point I was making - gov'ts do enact laws that "enforce" people to take actions or behave in ways they may or may not have otherwise taken with the outcome being public safety - either at an individual level, or a community level.  I would argue the seatbelt mandate inconsequential to insurers - all of them ... Life, P&C, and Health.  They'd simply pass any form of higher costs from a lack of seatbelt legislation (and thus higher injury/fatality rates in accidents) to their customers.  So there is absolutely benefit to society - less crowded healthcare systems, less mortality, less cost to all forms of insurance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 11:43:30 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 11:02:08 AM

I know it's philosophical. I tend to pose those questions a lot, mainly because they are questions, I feel, need to be asked right now.

Before the invention of money. We were people whom traded and bartered. I would trade, my fruits, my crafts, and items of necessity, for another item of necessity "the other" has that I do not but I also need. In return, "the other" is getting what they needed but didn't have. You had to know how to Farm, or make those crafts in order to survive. It's how slavery became a trade. People's Hard work and Labor was a form of trade and barter.

With the invention of money, we have 1 thing, that replaces "the crafts, fruits, and items of necessity". That 1 thing has become the "item of necessity", in order to get items we need to survive. It's made us rely on that 1 thing to give to the 1 person that makes those items of necessity.

This is in response to your question of "why should scientists and healthcare workers shoulder that burden?  Who's going to pay for the equipment, schooling, research, raw materials and testing for all this "free science"?" Because there is a reason why we Natives (or my ancestors/Tribe/Clan anyways) never had the concept of money. We were like "What the fuck is this" when we put out our hand for a handshake and the white man put a coin in his hand instead.

First let me say that I feel.... not uncomfortable, but disrespectful in a way, seeming to argue against your long traditions.  That's not what I'm doing.  I'm merely arguing from MY point of view, and from the system within which I work today (the global economy).   I don't view "money" as an other.  It's not a "1 thing" in my view, and in my view, it's seemed to take on a life of it's own, with magical properties (especially to those that don't have it).   It's not.  It's a means, a tool.  I think it's a mistake to give it mythical properties like that, or if we do, then at least don't forget the ultimate purpose.  I think we forget that our time slinging burgers, or sweeping floors (I was a janitor in a past life), or digging ditches (did that too) IS barter, just with an additional party involved.   It facilitates options and choice, where there might not have been in the more direct goods/goods trade.   

It's not money that is bad, it's the pride (entitlement) and envy that comes along with it (which both breed greed). 

Quote

  "And the "corruption" (in the sense of not being pure) of capitalism is greed, while the "corruption" of communism is socialist totalitarianism.  They both can be abused, but in the purer form facilitate a utility."

That is a great quote, as It explains, my view of...I can't find the term so i'll say governments. Each one has a benefit to us as a collective humanity. It's when these governments get corrupted is when the bad begins to happen. It's why we have to find a balance between them all. And find out when the right time and place to use that certain government style. Like Socially we could be communist, Lawfully we are authoritarian, Capitalist in our ways of keeping resources from depleting, etc....It all depends on what aspects of life each one works better in. It's like knowing which farmer grows the best produce, and using that farmer to grow the supply for everybody, as that farmer has the knowledge and understanding of what that plants benefits are for humanity.

But the balance to capitalism isn't communism, nor vice versa.  The balance is that which alleviates the corruption.  Capitalism and communism are merely systems, tools, and neutering one with the other doesn't remove the corruption; I would even argue it just blunts the ability to effectively deal with the corruption.   I'm an avowed capitalist, but I'd have little problem with a communist regime, IF it was really a communist regime.   The problem with any of these systems is when we try to mix and match the good parts, ignoring why and how the bad parts got there to begin with.   

I've said before that if the U.S. changed overnight to "Spanish" as the national language, there would be a group of people that embraced the change for what it is - the reality in which they live - and there'd be a group that bitched and moaned about the "inequality" of it all.  I think we can name - if not by actual name, then by characteristics - who's in what group.  I have no doubt whatsoever that the Mark Cuban's, the Jeff Bezo's, the  Barack Obama's, would be hablando Espanol by Friday.  I see no real reason why those same people wouldn't prosper under a communist scheme, and those that are waiting for the entitlement would still be floundering. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 01:10:07 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 09, 2020, 11:35:35 AM

My seatbelt analogy took a turn far from the point I was making - gov'ts do enact laws that "enforce" people to take actions or behave in ways they may or may not have otherwise taken with the outcome being public safety - either at an individual level, or a community level.  I would argue the seatbelt mandate inconsequential to insurers - all of them ... Life, P&C, and Health.  They'd simply pass any form of higher costs from a lack of seatbelt legislation (and thus higher injury/fatality rates in accidents) to their customers.  So there is absolutely benefit to society - less crowded healthcare systems, less mortality, less cost to all forms of insurance.

I don't think you're entirely wrong.   Haha, that sounds dickish.  I think you're largely right, except with the insurance aspect. Its a HUGE benefit to insurers; they realize what government has not, and that is, the resource is finite.   They cannot pass ALL the costs on to the people; there's a tipping point at which the risk or the cost gets out of whack.   The seatbelts - and the speed limits; that's a part of this too - temper the edges enough where the financials make sense.  The insurers make money - they ALWAYS make money, absent catastrophe - and the dynamic is preserved.

I'm saying this without judgment; I have no real rancor about the insurance companies; it's the system we live in.  I'm more calling attention to the notion that we've adopted that seems to want to moralize, or put judgment on, things that perhaps don't merit it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 09, 2020, 04:12:34 PM

Massachusetts announced their plans today..

(https://www.mass.gov/files/styles/embedded_full_width/public/2020-12/Vaccine-Phases-MassGov-768x576-01.png?itok=6JdEcxX4)


My wife goes Phase One and I go Phase Two. We can probably get my son, who has asthma in Phase two as well.


But WTF?? People in jail get to go in Phase One? You gotta be fucking kidding me!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 09, 2020, 04:39:15 PM

Probably because they're in a situation where they cannot isolate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on December 09, 2020, 04:43:45 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 09, 2020, 04:39:15 PM

Probably because they're in a situation where they cannot isolate.

Exactly. There have been a bunch of outbreaks in prisons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 09, 2020, 04:47:27 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 09, 2020, 04:39:15 PM

Probably because they're in a situation where they cannot isolate.

That, but it doesn't even specify the inmates are getting the vaccine. It says "congregate care settings. Including corrections and shelters". Prisons are getting ravaged by Covid right now, and I'd imagine that the vaccines are intended for the guards, warden, the nurses and doctors in the infirmaries, the psychologists, any of the instructors there that teach courses, and the priest/spiritual guy. Also, inmates handle stuff in the kitchen, have to do each others laundry, and perform janitorial services. . Vaccinating the inmates would ensure the safety of the people that work in the prisons, as well as save the taxpayer a small fortune if it prevents a Covid outbreak inside those walls.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 09, 2020, 04:55:39 PM

That sounds like a reasonable timeline for everyone. Hopefully there won't be any delays in the production chain for the vaccines, at least until they're done with phase one in most countries.

I've made up my mind, and when a few weeks from phase one pass in Norway, whenever that happens, I'll start volunteering again and using mass transport. When phase two is done, I'll start traveling locally again and join a gym, and when I'm vaccinated, I'll start attending events. When everyone's done, I'll stop wearing a mask. Can't wait for that. Sorry lipsticks, you're still only seeing the inside of my house :sadpanda:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 09, 2020, 05:26:30 PM

Quote from: Chino on December 09, 2020, 04:47:27 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 09, 2020, 04:39:15 PM

Probably because they're in a situation where they cannot isolate.

That, but it doesn't even specify the inmates are getting the vaccine. It says "congregate care settings. Including corrections and shelters". Prisons are getting ravaged by Covid right now, and I'd imagine that the vaccines are intended for the guards, warden, the nurses and doctors in the infirmaries, the psychologists, any of the instructors there that teach courses, and the priest/spiritual guy. Also, inmates handle stuff in the kitchen, have to do each others laundry, and perform janitorial services. . Vaccinating the inmates would ensure the safety of the people that work in the prisons, as well as save the taxpayer a small fortune if it prevents a Covid outbreak inside those walls.

All sound reasons.

Suppose it's just carmudgeon me that looks at some dude in jail getting the vaccine before my family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 04:28:07 AM

I imagine I'll continue to wear a mask throughout 2021.... just have far less worries and concerns about being in 'crowded' situations (example, movie theatres).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 10, 2020, 06:54:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 04:28:07 AM

I imagine I'll continue to wear a mask throughout 2021.... just have far less worries and concerns about being in 'crowded' situations (example, movie theatres).

I'll likely just follow the guidance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on December 10, 2020, 07:19:08 AM

Being bombarded with memes and information is gut-wrenching amidst all of this. According to the latest numbers I just saw, yesterday saw 3,124 US COVID deaths, which means more people died from COVID yesterday than died in the 9/11 attacks. Only Antietam and the Galveston hurricane (and the San Francisco earthquake, depending on what count you reference) saw greater losses of American lives in one day.

It's mind-boggling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 09:08:59 AM

Deleted, because I'm incompetent.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 09:09:48 AM

Add to Phase One "People who need to go to a friggin' concert"  :lol :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 09:14:00 AM

Quote from: Hyperplex on December 10, 2020, 07:19:08 AM

Being bombarded with memes and information is gut-wrenching amidst all of this. According to the latest numbers I just saw, yesterday saw 3,124 US COVID deaths, which means more people died from COVID yesterday than died in the 9/11 attacks. Only Antietam and the Galveston hurricane (and the San Francisco earthquake, depending on what count you reference) saw greater losses of American lives in one day.

It's mind-boggling.

Call it disaster fatigue, or what, but frankly, I'm tired of turning on the local news and every broadcast starting with the anchor in faux solemnity start with "New deadly milestones reached in the fight against COVID-19."  Got it, it's bad.  I mean, the data is important, and we need to know where we stand on all this, but there's no need for the hyperbole.  Even one more illness/death each day is pushing the boundaries, so the context is lost.  For me the totals are less informative or interesting than the trends, especially as compared to the February - April time period where we were still finding our way.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 09:14:46 AM

My local hospital is going to start giving out the vaccine on the 23rd according to my DR friend.  I haven't seen a specific phase rollout like TAC shared, but I'm sure it'll be similar as that plan seems logical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 10, 2020, 09:17:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 09:14:46 AM

My local hospital is going to start giving out the vaccine on the 23rd according to my DR friend.  I haven't seen a specific phase rollout like TAC shared, but I'm sure it'll be similar as that plan seems logical.

Maybe I missed it, but has any vaccine actually been approved in the US?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 09:20:20 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 09:17:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 09:14:46 AM

My local hospital is going to start giving out the vaccine on the 23rd according to my DR friend.  I haven't seen a specific phase rollout like TAC shared, but I'm sure it'll be similar as that plan seems logical.

Maybe I missed it, but has any vaccine actually been approved in the US?

Not yet, but they are prepping to have it ready regardless as they've been doing for months according to our NJ governor.  So maybe I should have worded it as "prepping to give out" but I think it's expected to be approved sooner than then.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:33:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 10, 2020, 06:54:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 04:28:07 AM

I imagine I'll continue to wear a mask throughout 2021.... just have far less worries and concerns about being in 'crowded' situations (example, movie theatres).

I'll likely just follow the guidance.

Right, cuz the gov'ts guidance has been so clear and reliable to date!   ::)

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 09:17:53 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 09:14:46 AM

My local hospital is going to start giving out the vaccine on the 23rd according to my DR friend.  I haven't seen a specific phase rollout like TAC shared, but I'm sure it'll be similar as that plan seems logical.

Maybe I missed it, but has any vaccine actually been approved in the US?

Health Canada approved Pfizer yesterday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 10, 2020, 09:37:16 AM

I believe the meeting is today to approve it.  Saw it in the news this morning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 10, 2020, 09:39:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 09:14:00 AM

Quote from: Hyperplex on December 10, 2020, 07:19:08 AM

Being bombarded with memes and information is gut-wrenching amidst all of this. According to the latest numbers I just saw, yesterday saw 3,124 US COVID deaths, which means more people died from COVID yesterday than died in the 9/11 attacks. Only Antietam and the Galveston hurricane (and the San Francisco earthquake, depending on what count you reference) saw greater losses of American lives in one day.

It's mind-boggling.

Call it disaster fatigue, or what, but frankly, I'm tired of turning on the local news and every broadcast starting with the anchor in faux solemnity start with "New deadly milestones reached in the fight against COVID-19."  Got it, it's bad.  I mean, the data is important, and we need to know where we stand on all this, but there's no need for the hyperbole.  Even one more illness/death each day is pushing the boundaries, so the context is lost.  For me the totals are less informative or interesting than the trends, especially as compared to the February - April time period where we were still finding our way.

Yeah, not sure if you heard but another record was set today....

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:33:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 10, 2020, 06:54:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 04:28:07 AM

I imagine I'll continue to wear a mask throughout 2021.... just have far less worries and concerns about being in 'crowded' situations (example, movie theatres).

I'll likely just follow the guidance.

Right, cuz the gov'ts guidance has been so clear and reliable to date!   ::)

Well, I meant that at some point masks will no longer be required.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 10, 2020, 09:40:43 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:33:18 AM

Right, cuz the gov'ts guidance has been so clear and reliable to date!   ::)

I think the guidance has been fine in a lot of states. Citizens' inability to stay home or follow the basic guidance is the bigger issue. The government's guidance, with the exception of ass hats like Ted Cruz, was to make the ultimate sacrifice and not gather for Thanksgiving this year. Well, look how that went and look at the spike we're seeing now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:59:23 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 10, 2020, 09:39:25 AM

Well, I meant that at some point masks will no longer be required.

Fair point... I just don't see that being (for my level of comfort) to be until 2022.

Quote from: Chino on December 10, 2020, 09:40:43 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:33:18 AM

Right, cuz the gov'ts guidance has been so clear and reliable to date!   ::)

I think the guidance has been fine in a lot of states. Citizens' inability to stay home or follow the basic guidance is the bigger issue. The government's guidance, with the exception of ass hats like Ted Cruz, was to make the ultimate sacrifice and not gather for Thanksgiving this year. Well, look how that went and look at the spike we're seeing now.

I guess I should clarify that I'm mostly speaking from the experience here with the Ontario Gov't.  Our Premier (ie, Governor) and relevant Ministers of various departments have cluster fucked every step of this, including delegating and/or avoiding responsibility on far too many things - delegating to the Municipal level, and even in some situations to private business; blaming the Federal layer; chastising some groups while diminishing the impact of others'.  It's been a trainwreck.

So, I'll use my own guidance based non-partisan health and scientific agencies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 10:09:23 AM

I think you can still carry and maybe even transmit the virus even if you are vaccinated so I dont think the masks are going anywhere just yet.  I do hope by summer a significant enough of the population is vaccinated so that we don't need to worry about transmission and can take the masks off, but we'll have to wait and see.  That's a very optimistic look.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 10:13:15 AM

I stand by what I've written before:  I think my governor has handled this fantastically (and I'll remind I didn't vote for him and didn't want him to be governor; the previous governor started strong but finished very poorly, and I thought Lamont would continue those failed policies even further).  We don't have great numbers (anymore; we used to) but I'm increasingly seeing that the politicians are not the wielders of power here.  There's only so much that can be done if the people themselves are not invested in it. 

It's sad; even some people close to me, who I KNOW know better - and who are no more interested in listening to/following Ted Cruz and Donald Trump as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is - are not always following the protocols.  I don't think - this is a pure guess, though - that it is necessarily "not taking it seriously" as it is in something more basic:  discipline.  They just don't seem to want to make the sacrifices.  Parties, holiday celebrations, whatever...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on December 10, 2020, 10:13:31 AM

I think masks should become a more common thing like in certain parts of the world.   Whenever you have a cold or something  and you go out to a public space you could prevent spreading it to others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 10, 2020, 10:13:44 AM

I know it's "just a meme" and I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it sounds about right.

(https://i.imgur.com/KpGQgIx.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 10:16:21 AM

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-story-behind-the-chilling-deadliest-days-in-american-history-meme/

(And while it's accurate as far as it goes, it's not complete.  For example, An estimated 6,600 Americans died on D-Day in 1944 (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/06/fact-sheet-normandy-landings).  I'd ask about Gettysburg and the Battle of the Bulge as well, though I'll probably take stick for "losing the big picture".)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 10, 2020, 10:34:48 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 10, 2020, 10:13:31 AM

I think masks should become a more common thing like in certain parts of the world.   Whenever you have a cold or something  and you go out to a public space you could prevent spreading it to others.

 :facepalm:

That's like saying we should all wear helmets, because We all may fall and break our fragile noggins.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 10, 2020, 10:35:55 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 10, 2020, 10:13:44 AM

I know it's "just a meme" and I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it sounds about right.

(https://i.imgur.com/KpGQgIx.jpg)

I could say so much. That neglects the very fact of the deaths of Natives here, that we do not have exact numbers for. 

Now...American History. or U.S. America History. I could go into semantics, and say "When we say America" does this include North and South America? It's like saying "Korean History", North or South Korea?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 10, 2020, 10:48:24 AM

It's DAYS in history. Not eras in history.

Was there a single day in history in the USA (Which is clearly what they mean and silly to dissect that) where thousands of Natives were killed or was that over a period of time? Any war and any major disease kills way more people than on that list, but never in a single day. That's the point.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there was a day when thousands upon thousands of natives were all killed in a single day. I dunno.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 10, 2020, 10:50:28 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 10, 2020, 10:34:48 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 10, 2020, 10:13:31 AM

I think masks should become a more common thing like in certain parts of the world.   Whenever you have a cold or something  and you go out to a public space you could prevent spreading it to others.

 :facepalm:

That's like saying we should all wear helmets, because We all may fall and break our fragile noggins.

He's not saying put a helmet on every time you leave the house. What he's saying is more akin to "maybe put a helmet on if you know you're getting on a bike". There's nothing 'facepalming' about showing others a little courtesy if you're sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 10:53:30 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 10:48:24 AM

It's DAYS in history. Not eras in history.

Was there a single day in history in the USA (Which is clearly what they mean and silly to dissect that) where thousands of Natives were killed or was that over a period of time? Any war and any major disease kills way more people than on that list, but never in a single day. That's the point.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there was a day when thousands upon thousands of natives were all killed in a single day. I dunno.

There probably was, but I agree, that meme was not meant to reflect that.  And while it says American history, I think it's easy to guess they meant the USA and on US soil. Of course, memes aren't going to be so specific, but I think this one makes a point, and while I also agree with Stadler that is getting a bit overkill (pun intended), the deaths per day in just the last week is a historical amount.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 10:57:45 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 10, 2020, 10:13:44 AM

I know it's "just a meme" and I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it sounds about right.

(https://i.imgur.com/KpGQgIx.jpg)

And for two of these, the USA joined or started a war as a result.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 10, 2020, 10:59:57 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 10:57:45 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 10, 2020, 10:13:44 AM

I know it's "just a meme" and I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it sounds about right.

(https://i.imgur.com/KpGQgIx.jpg)

And for two of these, the USA joined or started a war as a result.

Yea but that hurricane had it coming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:00:53 AM

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/longevity/529525-four-of-the-deadliest-days-in-us-history-happened-last

Ben, this article (and the associated video) makes reference to Native American massacres, though doesn't give any specific information.   I did a little digging and the most I could find on any one day was several hundred.  Horrific, of course, but in the context of the list, it doesn't measure up.

And I apologize again; it's just that these things bother me.  Don't make the statement if you're not right.  Don't play on heartstrings to make your point if your facts aren't accurate.  We have had five years now if rampaging against lies and misinformation; just because your cause is (or may be) just, doesn't give you a pass. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 10, 2020, 11:01:20 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 10:53:30 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 10:48:24 AM

It's DAYS in history. Not eras in history.

Was there a single day in history in the USA (Which is clearly what they mean and silly to dissect that) where thousands of Natives were killed or was that over a period of time? Any war and any major disease kills way more people than on that list, but never in a single day. That's the point.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there was a day when thousands upon thousands of natives were all killed in a single day. I dunno.

There probably was, but I agree, that meme was not meant to reflect that.  And while it says American history, I think it's easy to guess they meant the USA and on US soil. Of course, memes aren't going to be so specific, but I think this one makes a point, and while I also agree with Stadler that is getting a bit overkill (pun intended), the deaths per day in just the last week is a historical amount.

It really puts into perspective why it was so easy for plagues to decimate entire communities of people back in the days when we didn't understand things and couldn't quickly communicate anything. We're seeing these numbers 10 months after this thing started and with all these measures in place. Freaking crazy, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing.  We can estimate, and of course we have our biases, but no one REALLY knows. 

This source (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:22:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing.  We can estimate, and of course we have our biases, but no one REALLY knows. 

This source (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

But I don't think that was the intent. I think the intent was merely to point out that this is a big deal. Which, I feel, it did. Will people care? Eh. I dunno. It's likely just preaching to the choir, but it did demonstrate that it's a big deal. Maybe we're talking about different statistics or memes or charts, but I didn't see it as making a major political statement in the way you seem to be reading it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:22:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing.  We can estimate, and of course we have our biases, but no one REALLY knows. 

This source (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

But I don't think that was the intent. I think the intent was merely to point out that this is a big deal. Which, I feel, it did. Will people care? Eh. I dunno. It's likely just preaching to the choir, but it did demonstrate that it's a big deal. Maybe we're talking about different statistics or memes or charts, but I didn't see it as making a major political statement in the way you seem to be reading it.

Well, the comment you quoted wasn't directly about the meme, it was triggered by Chino's post (and not in disagreement).   As for my criticisms of the meme, it's not political at all.    Maybe I'm the weird one here, but I think the lack of truth and accuracy undermines that it's a big deal.  If it was such a big deal we wouldn't need to exaggerate, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Odd, almost surreal that in this context we seem to be not only excusing but celebrating INACCURACY, all because we what, agree with the point?  Doesn't that speak to ANYONE? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 10, 2020, 11:28:41 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 10:48:24 AM

It's DAYS in history. Not eras in history.

Was there a single day in history in the USA (Which is clearly what they mean and silly to dissect that) where thousands of Natives were killed or was that over a period of time? Any war and any major disease kills way more people than on that list, but never in a single day. That's the point.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there was a day when thousands upon thousands of natives were all killed in a single day. I dunno.

That's my point. This is just a scare tactic to instill fear into people's psyche. How can we say it's a deadly day in American History, when these totals are events that happened less than 200 years ago. You also consider the population and regional populations weren't as dense as they are now. In those times, the dense populations were in the Native Regions. Before they were taken to be slaves in the mines. They kept no records of how many of us would have died in a single day, as we weren't considered "Humans" but "Animals", so our deaths weren't treated and recorded the same as a "Civilized" death, as some natives did become civil those were the ones that end up in the history records.

My state was under Spanish Rule and going through the aftermath of the Mexican-American War during the times These incidents occurred like Antietam, and we were seeing the effects of the American Gold Rush and Industrial Revolution during the Galveston Hurricane.

Think of it this way, we weren't seeing our numbers increase, but consistently dwindle, while these incidents happened.

And also, I bet there were more deaths in the Galveston Hurricane, if some of those Slaves, and Labor Workers, weren't included in the records.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:31:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:22:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing.  We can estimate, and of course we have our biases, but no one REALLY knows. 

This source (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

But I don't think that was the intent. I think the intent was merely to point out that this is a big deal. Which, I feel, it did. Will people care? Eh. I dunno. It's likely just preaching to the choir, but it did demonstrate that it's a big deal. Maybe we're talking about different statistics or memes or charts, but I didn't see it as making a major political statement in the way you seem to be reading it.

Well, the comment you quoted wasn't directly about the meme, it was triggered by Chino's post (and not in disagreement).   As for my criticisms of the meme, it's not political at all.    Maybe I'm the weird one here, but I think the lack of truth and accuracy undermines that it's a big deal.  If it was such a big deal we wouldn't need to exaggerate, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Odd, almost surreal that in this context we seem to be not only excusing but celebrating INACCURACY, all because we what, agree with the point?  Doesn't that speak to ANYONE?

I didn't do a ton of research on it, mostly since I don't care a ton about the statistic, but what was inaccurate? And, if it were 100% accurate (using only known info, that is) would that have changed the point? I'm honestly asking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 10, 2020, 11:35:55 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing. 

There's no way of telling what shutting the borders down would have done, but I think it's pretty safe to say that if we did "nothing", like literally kept business in this country 100% as usual, shit would have hit the fan really early on, and at the very latest by now. My sweet, new, $17M open office floor plan would have been a petri dish. I bet they're kicking themselves over that decision  :lol

Quote

This source (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

I think a big part of that is the population densities of the first areas to really get hit. Covid had already made its way into nursing homes in NY, New Jersey, and New England before we really knew what we were dealing with. There were also huge shortages of PPE at that time. By the time the virus spread out west and further south, nursing homes and medical facilities had a better understand of what was coming and put measures in place to mitigate the chance of an outbreak. The original states to get hit also didn't get the luxury of time and excess resources to adequately prepare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 10, 2020, 11:52:35 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 10, 2020, 11:35:55 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing. 

There's no way of telling what shutting the borders down would have done, but I think it's pretty safe to say that if we did "nothing", like literally kept business in this country 100% as usual, shit would have hit the fan really early on, and at the very latest by now. My sweet, new, $17M open office floor plan would have been a petri dish. I bet they're kicking themselves over that decision  :lol

Quote

This source (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

I think a big part of that is the population densities of the first areas to really get hit. Covid had already made its way into nursing homes in NY, New Jersey, and New England before we really knew what we were dealing with. There were also huge shortages of PPE at that time. By the time the virus spread out west and further south, nursing homes and medical facilities had a better understand of what was coming and put measures in place to mitigate the chance of an outbreak. The original states to get hit also didn't get the luxury of time and excess resources to adequately prepare.

Us being an nation who's health is vastly unhealthy and susceptible to many illnesses because of it. I don't think it would've mattered whether we did close the borders or not. It was already here. There are some people who have gotten a "Mystery Flu" last year during Mid-December and Mid-January of this year, and those people are saying "I think what I had was Covid". I know a lot of those people, as my community was like "wow, a lot people got the flu."

Even Misha kind of joked about that on Herman Li's Twitch stream. And they were in Germany, at the same time last year, when he said a lot of people on the tour crew were sick, and walking around like Zombies, and they were telling them to go home.


 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM

Odd, almost surreal that in this context we seem to be not only excusing but celebrating INACCURACY, all because we what, agree with the point?  Doesn't that speak to ANYONE?

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 10:16:21 AM

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-story-behind-the-chilling-deadliest-days-in-american-history-meme/

(And while it's accurate as far as it goes, it's not complete.  For example, An estimated 6,600 Americans died on D-Day in 1944 (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/06/fact-sheet-normandy-landings).  I'd ask about Gettysburg and the Battle of the Bulge as well, though I'll probably take stick for "losing the big picture".)

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say here if you do agree it's accurate. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:58:01 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:31:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:22:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing.  We can estimate, and of course we have our biases, but no one REALLY knows. 

This source (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

But I don't think that was the intent. I think the intent was merely to point out that this is a big deal. Which, I feel, it did. Will people care? Eh. I dunno. It's likely just preaching to the choir, but it did demonstrate that it's a big deal. Maybe we're talking about different statistics or memes or charts, but I didn't see it as making a major political statement in the way you seem to be reading it.

Well, the comment you quoted wasn't directly about the meme, it was triggered by Chino's post (and not in disagreement).   As for my criticisms of the meme, it's not political at all.    Maybe I'm the weird one here, but I think the lack of truth and accuracy undermines that it's a big deal.  If it was such a big deal we wouldn't need to exaggerate, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Odd, almost surreal that in this context we seem to be not only excusing but celebrating INACCURACY, all because we what, agree with the point?  Doesn't that speak to ANYONE?

I didn't do a ton of research on it, mostly since I don't care a ton about the statistic, but what was inaccurate? And, if it were 100% accurate (using only known info, that is) would that have changed the point? I'm honestly asking.

Well, for starters, the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh deadliest days in American history weren't likely "last Tuesday".   That's the essence of the point; that these national numbers (i.e. deaths out of 330 million people) were as great as if not greater these other numbers (with no context).    We've already spitballed two, maybe three other events that were deadlier - San Francisco and D-Day - and so as we speak "BIG DEAL" is diminishing. 

Again, I ask, if it IS a big deal, what's the point?   Why do we need this?  And do we want people "thinking like we do" based on bad information?    Frankly, if someone is too stupid to wear a mask, they're not likely to be swayed by this to begin with, and if they are, I'm not really interested in playing on that stupidity by giving bad information to bully them into compliance.   Isn't that kind of what we voted out of office a couple weeks ago?   I don't want to be part of that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 12:00:43 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 10, 2020, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM

Odd, almost surreal that in this context we seem to be not only excusing but celebrating INACCURACY, all because we what, agree with the point?  Doesn't that speak to ANYONE?

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 10:16:21 AM

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-story-behind-the-chilling-deadliest-days-in-american-history-meme/

(And while it's accurate as far as it goes, it's not complete.  For example, An estimated 6,600 Americans died on D-Day in 1944 (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/06/fact-sheet-normandy-landings).  I'd ask about Gettysburg and the Battle of the Bulge as well, though I'll probably take stick for "losing the big picture".)

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say here if you do agree it's accurate.

Well, my bad, I'm sorry.  "accurate  AS FAR AS IT GOES".    It is accurate to a degree - that's the agreed to number for both Galveston and Pearl Harbor, for example - but it's inaccurate in that the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th "Most Deadliest Days In American History" weren't "last Tuesday".   

I'm saying, mostly, that I've got a problem on principle relying on misleading information to make a point.  We shouldn't be fudging the facts, or overlooking other facts, in order to make a "stronger point".   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 10, 2020, 12:01:53 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:58:01 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:31:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 11:22:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing.  We can estimate, and of course we have our biases, but no one REALLY knows. 

This source (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

But I don't think that was the intent. I think the intent was merely to point out that this is a big deal. Which, I feel, it did. Will people care? Eh. I dunno. It's likely just preaching to the choir, but it did demonstrate that it's a big deal. Maybe we're talking about different statistics or memes or charts, but I didn't see it as making a major political statement in the way you seem to be reading it.

Well, the comment you quoted wasn't directly about the meme, it was triggered by Chino's post (and not in disagreement).   As for my criticisms of the meme, it's not political at all.    Maybe I'm the weird one here, but I think the lack of truth and accuracy undermines that it's a big deal.  If it was such a big deal we wouldn't need to exaggerate, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Odd, almost surreal that in this context we seem to be not only excusing but celebrating INACCURACY, all because we what, agree with the point?  Doesn't that speak to ANYONE?

I didn't do a ton of research on it, mostly since I don't care a ton about the statistic, but what was inaccurate? And, if it were 100% accurate (using only known info, that is) would that have changed the point? I'm honestly asking.

Well, for starters, the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh deadliest days in American history weren't likely "last Tuesday".   That's the essence of the point; that these national numbers (i.e. deaths out of 330 million people) were as great as if not greater these other numbers (with no context).    We've already spitballed two, maybe three other events that were deadlier - San Francisco and D-Day - and so as we speak "BIG DEAL" is diminishing. 

Again, I ask, if it IS a big deal, what's the point?   Why do we need this?  And do we want people "thinking like we do" based on bad information?    Frankly, if someone is too stupid to wear a mask, they're not likely to be swayed by this to begin with, and if they are, I'm not really interested in playing on that stupidity by giving bad information to bully them into compliance.   Isn't that kind of what we voted out of office a couple weeks ago?   I don't want to be part of that.

I'm gonna question you on D-Day since that wasn't IN America or on American soil. I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong, but they just meant IN the country. They also might have excluded days that were actively part of a war. Again, I dunno.

But yes, if you expand it to all wars, and all American citizens anywhere in the world at any given time, then I do think it misses the point. If you're trying to say that if you include war...WAR....then Covid numbers don't see quite as alarming, then I'd say that's actually pretty alarming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 12:02:16 PM

Quote from: Chino on December 10, 2020, 11:35:55 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 11:13:04 AM

Maybe it's because I live in a world where I get credit for things that DIDN'T happen (and, therefore, so rarely ever get credit!) that I find these statistics so irritating.   They're meaningful in some ways, and data is always useful, but they are meaningless in so many other ways, not least of which, predictively.   What if we did nothing?  What if we literally locked the entire country - borders and all - down for six months?   We have no way of knowing. 

There's no way of telling what shutting the borders down would have done, but I think it's pretty safe to say that if we did "nothing", like literally kept business in this country 100% as usual, shit would have hit the fan really early on, and at the very latest by now. My sweet, new, $17M open office floor plan would have been a petri dish. I bet they're kicking themselves over that decision  :lol

Quote

This source (a reliable one) shows that four of the top five states for "deaths per 1M pop" are blue states.  My state is fourth (though we're 38th in CASES per 1M, which tells me that we're not getting the "casual" cases, only the most vulnerable are getting sick).   That tells me that this isn't a case of strictly "leadership".

I think a big part of that is the population densities of the first areas to really get hit. Covid had already made its way into nursing homes in NY, New Jersey, and New England before we really knew what we were dealing with. There were also huge shortages of PPE at that time. By the time the virus spread out west and further south, nursing homes and medical facilities had a better understand of what was coming and put measures in place to mitigate the chance of an outbreak. The original states to get hit also didn't get the luxury of time and excess resources to adequately prepare.

Those are fair points, especially the latter.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 10, 2020, 12:24:05 PM

What are we arguing about, people?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 12:37:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 10, 2020, 12:24:05 PM

What are we arguing about, people?

Truth, justice and the American way!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 10, 2020, 12:38:18 PM

Oh shit. Forget I asked. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 10, 2020, 12:43:37 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 12:37:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 10, 2020, 12:24:05 PM

What are we arguing about, people?

Truth, justice and the American way!

Woah woah woah, which American do you mean? Like do you mean the North American way? The South American way?

TELL ME!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 10, 2020, 12:49:17 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 12:37:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 10, 2020, 12:24:05 PM

What are we arguing about, people?

Truth, justice and the American way!

My God you are Stan Smith!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 10, 2020, 12:52:23 PM

Who's Stan Smith?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 10, 2020, 01:02:16 PM

Stadler, I thought.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 10, 2020, 01:09:43 PM

1st base.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 10, 2020, 01:13:14 PM

Quote from: Chino on December 09, 2020, 04:47:27 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 09, 2020, 04:39:15 PM

Probably because they're in a situation where they cannot isolate.

That, but it doesn't even specify the inmates are getting the vaccine. It says "congregate care settings. Including corrections and shelters". Prisons are getting ravaged by Covid right now, and I'd imagine that the vaccines are intended for the guards, warden, the nurses and doctors in the infirmaries, the psychologists, any of the instructors there that teach courses, and the priest/spiritual guy. Also, inmates handle stuff in the kitchen, have to do each others laundry, and perform janitorial services. . Vaccinating the inmates would ensure the safety of the people that work in the prisons, as well as save the taxpayer a small fortune if it prevents a Covid outbreak inside those walls.

All of this is on the money.  It's the same reason they offer free flu shots to anyone in prison who wants one.  In the long run it protects the staff and the public (don't forget, more than 50% of prisoners get visits from people in the community).  I am absolutely sure that the staff are going to be vaccinated LONG before any inmates see a vaccine.  In MA the entire prison population's medical needs are served by a third-party for profit medical services company.  I can tell you from experience the medical care they get is absolute fucking garbage.  My dogs get far, far better medical treatment. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 01:30:11 PM

My daughter wears my shoes.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on December 10, 2020, 02:06:27 PM

How are people dealing with the childcare aspect?

I was lucky enough to add a member to our family right as this thing was beginning. The work from home schedule meant a lot more bonding time then I usually would have gotten, and for the first 3-4 months baby slept most of the day. But every day it's getting harder and harder for both of us to get all our work done while taking care of young kids. Nothing brings me less comfort than the thought of throwing my kids out to daycare at the height of the pandemic, but I'm not sure how many more months I can hold out...  :sad:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 10, 2020, 02:15:09 PM

Quote from: Chino on December 10, 2020, 10:50:28 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 10, 2020, 10:34:48 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 10, 2020, 10:13:31 AM

I think masks should become a more common thing like in certain parts of the world.   Whenever you have a cold or something  and you go out to a public space you could prevent spreading it to others.

 :facepalm:

That's like saying we should all wear helmets, because We all may fall and break our fragile noggins.

He's not saying put a helmet on every time you leave the house. What he's saying is more akin to "maybe put a helmet on if you know you're getting on a bike". There's nothing 'facepalming' about showing others a little courtesy if you're sick.

Exactly.  I could see that catching on.  And it would actually be pretty smart.  Before all of this, at least in America, you would rarely see someone out in public wearing a mask.  If you did, the person was most likely Asian, and I think most kinda looked at the person wearing the mask as weird and/or reactionary.  But now that, of necessity, masks are commonplace, that stigma and lack of understanding are largely gone.  As an entire population at large, more people are aware of the benefits of wearing a mask.  And coupled with that, less people are inclined to feel weird about wearing one or looking down on those who do.  For that reason, I think masks will become a lot more common than they were in those types of situations where someone gets something.  Hopefully, things like frequent, thorough washing/sanitizing, and avoiding touching the face, and other things like that will become more common as well, which is a good thing. 

Of course, to my point the other day, that is also somewhat dependent on people understanding what masks do and don't do.  If people mistakenly think "masks are primarily to prevent me from getting sick by keeping me from breathing bad stuff in," then those people won't wear them when they are already sick.  It is only the people who understand that they are protecting others from what they might breathe out when they are sick that will wear them when they are sick, and thus minimize the spread.  But, again, I would guess that that will both become more heavily promoted and more commonly done.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 02:35:16 PM

I've been saying I will keep wearing a mask if I get a cold out of courtesy, but honestly, as long as I'm still stuck wearing glasses, I'll be free-sneezing my way through life. It's just comically uncomfortable. I can't wait to take it off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 10, 2020, 02:39:35 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 01:30:11 PM

My daughter wears my shoes.   :)

But can she walk a mile in them?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:08:03 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 02:35:16 PM

I've been saying I will keep wearing a mask if I get a cold out of courtesy, but honestly, as long as I'm still stuck wearing glasses, I'll be free-sneezing my way through life. It's just comically uncomfortable. I can't wait to take it off.

Fellow glass wearer here. Literally every breath I take outside is an attempt to my sight. Geez.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 04:16:57 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:08:03 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 02:35:16 PM

I've been saying I will keep wearing a mask if I get a cold out of courtesy, but honestly, as long as I'm still stuck wearing glasses, I'll be free-sneezing my way through life. It's just comically uncomfortable. I can't wait to take it off.

Fellow glass wearer here. Literally every breath I take outside is an attempt to my sight. Geez.

I've tried all the hacks and they just don't fucking work. I got LOST outside a few days ago until it occurred to me to just take the thing off, the streets were empty and I had plenty of backups in my purse for the next bus stop.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 04:24:31 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 04:16:57 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:08:03 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 02:35:16 PM

I've been saying I will keep wearing a mask if I get a cold out of courtesy, but honestly, as long as I'm still stuck wearing glasses, I'll be free-sneezing my way through life. It's just comically uncomfortable. I can't wait to take it off.

Fellow glass wearer here. Literally every breath I take outside is an attempt to my sight. Geez.

I've tried all the hacks and they just don't fucking work. I got LOST outside a few days ago until it occurred to me to just take the thing off, the streets were empty and I had plenty of backups in my purse for the next bus stop.

My glasses have found a very comfortable spot on the top of my head.  It's ridiculous.   I have contacts, but I don't wear them much even with this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 04:29:03 PM

I read a study that says contact wearers got infected more often than glasses wearers, so I haven't switched back to contacts for that reason, but I was really considering it. I know that with contacts I touch my eyes way more, and I guess glasses might protect you from some droplets as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 10, 2020, 05:50:44 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:08:03 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 02:35:16 PM

I've been saying I will keep wearing a mask if I get a cold out of courtesy, but honestly, as long as I'm still stuck wearing glasses, I'll be free-sneezing my way through life. It's just comically uncomfortable. I can't wait to take it off.

Fellow glass wearer here. Literally every breath I take outside is an attempt to my sight. Geez.

As one who spends half his working day in a walk in refrigerator, I feel your pain my peeps.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Spiritus on December 10, 2020, 06:15:16 PM

Quote from: Adami on December 10, 2020, 10:59:57 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 10:57:45 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 10, 2020, 10:13:44 AM

I know it's "just a meme" and I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it sounds about right.

(https://i.imgur.com/KpGQgIx.jpg)

And for two of these, the USA joined or started a war as a result.

Yea but that hurricane had it coming.

I lol'ed

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on December 10, 2020, 08:36:35 PM

I work for Northwestern Medicine in Northern Illinois and we got an email today telling us to start signing up for the vaccine and that they expect to start vaccinating next week. We have to answer a few questions and then they slot us in the queue in terms of priority. Several of my coworkers have already done so. I meant to and forgot. Probably will soon.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and it's free to us.

EDIT2: Just signed up. I have asthma and I'm a little on the large side so I am an increased risk case.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 08:47:15 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 04:29:03 PM

I read a study that says contact wearers got infected more often than glasses wearers, so I haven't switched back to contacts for that reason, but I was really considering it. I know that with contacts I touch my eyes way more, and I guess glasses might protect you from some droplets as well.

My eyes are in-between now.  No contacts I can't see far enough to really function; both contacts and I can't read or use the phone.   So I've been doing this "one contact lens" thing, but with not going out I'm kind of "fuck it". I didn't know that about infection rates, so I think I'll save the lens for when concerts return.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:19:00 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on December 10, 2020, 08:36:35 PM

I work for Northwestern Medicine in Northern Illinois and we got an email today telling us to start signing up for the vaccine and that they expect to start vaccinating next week. We have to answer a few questions and then they slot us in the queue in terms of priority. Several of my coworkers have already done so. I meant to and forgot. Probably will soon.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and it's free to us.

EDIT2: Just signed up. I have asthma and I'm a little on the large side so I am an increased risk case.

No need to brag now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on December 10, 2020, 10:42:54 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:19:00 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on December 10, 2020, 08:36:35 PM

I work for Northwestern Medicine in Northern Illinois and we got an email today telling us to start signing up for the vaccine and that they expect to start vaccinating next week. We have to answer a few questions and then they slot us in the queue in terms of priority. Several of my coworkers have already done so. I meant to and forgot. Probably will soon.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and it's free to us.

EDIT2: Just signed up. I have asthma and I'm a little on the large side so I am an increased risk case.

No need to brag now.

I immediately went there when I typed that. I know if I said that in the presence of my buddies they would have fallen over laughing themselves silly and not in a good way. I needed a laugh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 11, 2020, 06:17:47 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on December 10, 2020, 10:42:54 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 10, 2020, 09:19:00 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on December 10, 2020, 08:36:35 PM

I work for Northwestern Medicine in Northern Illinois and we got an email today telling us to start signing up for the vaccine and that they expect to start vaccinating next week. We have to answer a few questions and then they slot us in the queue in terms of priority. Several of my coworkers have already done so. I meant to and forgot. Probably will soon.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and it's free to us.

EDIT2: Just signed up. I have asthma and I'm a little on the large side so I am an increased risk case.

No need to brag now.

I immediately went there when I typed that. I know if I said that in the presence of my buddies they would have fallen over laughing themselves silly and not in a good way. I needed a laugh.

You *are* in the presence of your buddies here at DTF!   ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 13, 2020, 09:11:02 AM

I'm tired of anti vaxxers. Sure, don't get vaccinated. Stand next to me without a mask on, too. If I get infected I'll be protected from the symptoms, while you won't. Have fun doing all of that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 13, 2020, 11:30:06 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 13, 2020, 09:11:02 AM

I'm tired of anti vaxxers. Sure, don't get vaccinated. Stand next to me without a mask on, too. If I get infected I'll be protected from the symptoms, while you won't. Have fun doing all of that.

That's the point. You can take it. I won't. That's the freedom of choice.

"Why are you so concerned about what I put into my body." That's the argument and point some of these antivaxxers are making as well.

They know and understand the risks.

Also, there are many other reasons besides the side effects, that people are not going to take this vaccine. Others won't because they feel not enough trials and tests have been done, and see it as we haven't even really seen the effects as it hasn't been long enough yet.

Others that don't want to take it can't because of health reasons. Same as other medicines they can't take due to their health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 13, 2020, 11:54:59 AM

Vaccines have been around for decades however. Time and again they proved they helped to defeat diseases. I grew up as a little kid caressing with curiosity the little scar that my mother had on her arm because of a vaccination against.... well, something I don't remember at the moment, but her and everyone else of her generation have that vaccination scar.

When did we suddenly decide that vaccines are harmful? probably since a random moron came out with a stupid study on how "vaccines cause autism" (spoiler, they don't) and it ignited a mass hysteria about vaccines. Once there was the saying of (not) "shouting fire in a crowded theater", now we should warn about not spewing inane bullshit on the web, there is always someone idiot enough to believe it (I'm looking at you, Qanon).

Now, of course we should differentiate between the two kind of no vaxxers...

1) The extremist ones, the "vaccines cause autism" ones, the "Bill Gates inject us microchips for population control" ones; these are people with serious psychological issues and they should receive professional help, and until they get it, they should not be allowed to vote or to have children;

2) The "rational" ones, people who understand the importance of vaccines but have doubts about the rush for this particular one - I would be curious to know how much they knew vaccines beforehand, and how many hours (or minutes?) they spend educating themselves about it to TRULY understand the issue. You can't get educated about vaccines, if it was not your field, just by reading a random internet article. There's a lot more of work that has to go into it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 13, 2020, 12:12:09 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 13, 2020, 11:54:59 AM

Vaccines have been around for decades however. Time and again they proved they helped to defeat diseases. I grew up as a little kid caressing with curiosity the little scar that my mother had on her arm because of a vaccination against.... well, something I don't remember at the moment, but her and everyone else of her generation have that vaccination scar.

When did we suddenly decide that vaccines are harmful? probably since a random moron came out with a stupid study on how "vaccines cause autism" (spoiler, they don't) and it ignited a mass hysteria about vaccines. Once there was the saying of (not) "shouting fire in a crowded theater", now we should warn about not spewing inane bullshit on the web, there is always someone idiot enough to believe it (I'm looking at you, Qanon).

Now, of course we should differentiate between the two kind of no vaxxers...

1) The extremist ones, the "vaccines cause autism" ones, the "Bill Gates inject us microchips for population control" ones; these are people with serious psychological issues and they should receive professional help, and until they get it, they should not be allowed to vote or to have children;

2) The "rational" ones, people who understand the importance of vaccines but have doubts about the rush for this particular one - I would be curious to know how much they knew vaccines beforehand, and how many hours (or minutes?) they spend educating themselves about it to TRULY understand the issue. You can't get educated about vaccines, if it was not your field, just by reading a random internet article. There's a lot more of work that has to go into it.

1) Way to already diagnose those people with psychological issues.

2) There are other doctors who are also saying things about vaccines. There are also many doctors who don't agree with each other on certain things. There are also doctors who are for Holistic and Natural remedies than for the push for Man-Made Vaccines.


Also, Do we really know what is in these vaccines they are injecting into us? Or do we just go "oh ok, I trust the doctor" (Requiem For A Dream does a good example of these bad doctors, when the main characters Mother ends up taking "Uppers" so she can lose wait to fit into her dress to go on her favorite show, she ends up addicted, because she put her trust in that doctor, and ends up in a mental institution at the end.) There are those people as well. And those people get taken advantage of, because they don't know.

Decades isn't that long in the long run, a lot can happen, yes, but not as much as can in a Century. Vaccines haven't been around for centuries.

What are Vaccines? Vaccines stimulate the immune system to attack a specific harmful agent.

Quote

"A vaccine can confer active immunity against a specific harmful agent by stimulating the immune system to attack the agent. Once stimulated by a vaccine, the antibody-producing cells, called B cells (or B lymphocytes), remain sensitized and ready to respond to the agent should it ever gain entry to the body. A vaccine may also confer passive immunity by providing antibodies or lymphocytes already made by an animal or human donor. Vaccines are usually administered by injection (parenteral administration), but some are given orally or even nasally (in the case of flu vaccine). Vaccines applied to mucosal surfaces, such as those lining the gut or nasal passages, seem to stimulate a greater antibody response and may be the most effective route of administration. (For further information, see immunization.)"

I am sure those you listed in both 1) and 2) are not stupid to not understand this. Believe me, some of these people read these and then think for themselves, come to their own conclusions, and will not take the vaccine. It's their choice and their decision to deal with the sickness when/if they get it.


What I want to know is how can we better our immunity without the need of vaccines?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 13, 2020, 12:22:48 PM

Honestly, That's the Fear of Death, that we as humanity sometimes face on a worldwide scale. That its come to a time when many will die, and who will be the lucky few that do. It's what you call Hitting the Wall of Reality, and Truth. People don't want to face it, and then do anything necessary to make sure they survive. Some people, face it and accept the fact they will likely die tomorrow, "But I'll be alright, because I believe". No matter how much we like it or not. This is the reality, and this is what we are facing. Life doesn't care if you like it or not, It'll still go on, and the world will continue to spin. "Why does the world continue to spin, while everything around me grinds to a halt."

Sorry, for getting a bit philosophical, but It's what I see and how I view the world. And how Reality is presenting itself to us at this moment in our lifetime. It's why some are calling this a test of humanity. A test of where we decide which way the world will go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 13, 2020, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 13, 2020, 11:54:59 AM

2) The "rational" ones, people who understand the importance of vaccines but have doubts about the rush for this particular one - I would be curious to know how much they knew vaccines beforehand, and how many hours (or minutes?) they spend educating themselves about it to TRULY understand the issue. You can't get educated about vaccines, if it was not your field, just by reading a random internet article. There's a lot more of work that has to go into it.

I had an argument with my husband about this just yesterday. "It's all politics and profit and these vaccines are out too quickly". Okay, so which steps were skipped and how did politics and profit chasing impact the development of each of the vaccines we were talking about? "They could be lying about anything and everything, if you believe everyone you're too naive, I have the right to have my doubts." Why do you have your doubts? "Because profit, lying, politics." Spinning in circles. Like people just have to deal with this emotionally by rationalizing themselves into stupid attitudes they never had about anything, ever. I see that all the time. My best friend is like "ok so we're all gonna get it so I'm just gonna live my life." Girl, if we could all get it tomorrow and be okay, don't you think that would have been the easy way out of this situation?

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 13, 2020, 11:30:06 AM

That's the point. You can take it. I won't. That's the freedom of choice.

"Why are you so concerned about what I put into my body." That's the argument and point some of these antivaxxers are making as well.

There are some people sworn to treat you if you willingly choose to risk getting sick from this thing, and at some point next year they'd like to stop working 12-hour shifts where they watch people die in painful and gruesome ways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 13, 2020, 04:15:32 PM

Very few things piss me off more than anti vaxxers, especially those who espouse 'personal choice' as their reasoning. There's also an aspect of social responsibility. You aren't just protecting yourself, you're protecting those who are immune-compromised or for whatever other reason can't get a specific jab. Case in point...

I've never had chicken pox, and am 51 years old now. The answer would be easy, get vaccinated, except I can't because I'm allergic to one of the key ingredients (neomyacin). If for some reason I got it at my age, say because some mom-hard group decided to have a pox party to get all their crotch goblins natural immunity, and they passed it on to me, I'd get very, very fucking sick at my age. Or someone who's system is compromised because of chemo, and their jabs have lost efficacy, they need our herd protection from all these diseases. In short, don't be fucking selfish, get vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 13, 2020, 04:21:12 PM

I agree.  Personal choice is fine, but when your choices and behaviors harm others, you've crossed the line.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

And these days, "personal choice" means religious liberties which translates to religious privilege. In Texas, your child cannot enroll in public school  unless they have vaccinations - unless they get a religious exemption and in some states, parents are allowed to let their children die because they literally believe in "woo" and they won't vaccinate "their" children. Children have been killed simply because of what their parents believe. This has been happening for years!
That said, I would support a law that restricts rights of people who don't vaccinate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 13, 2020, 05:03:25 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

And these days, "personal choice" means religious liberties which translates to religious privilege. In Texas, your child cannot enroll in public school  unless they have vaccinations - unless they get a religious exemption and in some states, parents are allowed to let their children die because they literally believe in "woo" and they won't vaccinate "their" children. Children have been killed simply because of what their parents believe. This has been happening for years!
That said, I would support a law that restricts rights of people who don't vaccinate.

This.  So much.  No shirt, no shoes, no vax-proof card, no service.

@ Ben... (serious question, and lord help me I have no idea why I'm asking it), why is the "freedom to choose" the option of getting very fucking sick, and potentially passing it along to others, so important to you? 

Regardless of your answer, I trust then you believe and respect medical professionals should have the freedom of choice whether to treat you if you're sick?  Businesses also should have the freedom of choice as to whether to allow you into their premises or to provide you goods or services?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on December 13, 2020, 05:05:09 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

In Texas, your child cannot enroll in public school  unless they have vaccinations - unless they get a religious exemption...

I thought that was the case in most states(?)

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

That said, I would support a law that restricts rights of people who don't vaccinate.

Such as?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 13, 2020, 05:18:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on December 13, 2020, 05:05:09 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

That said, I would support a law that restricts rights of people who don't vaccinate.

Such as?

Ontario is already toying with the idea of requiring proof of vaccination to attend populated indoor businesses or events (eg, movie theatres, casinos, sporting events, concerts etc...).  That's the kind of stuff that I'd be down with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 13, 2020, 05:22:45 PM

It amazes me the disinformation on the internet taken as proof.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 13, 2020, 05:27:19 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 13, 2020, 05:18:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on December 13, 2020, 05:05:09 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

That said, I would support a law that restricts rights of people who don't vaccinate.

Such as?

Ontario is already toying with the idea of requiring proof of vaccination to attend populated indoor businesses or events (eg, movie theatres, casinos, sporting events, concerts etc...).  That's the kind of stuff that I'd be down with.

I asked both my local Dr and cop friends if they would be required today, both said not sure yet but my Dr friend said he would get it ASAP and it might be available to him soon because the first NJ doses start Tuesday and he's a health care worker.  I'm wondering the same thing about having to have proof of vaccination to accept certain jobs or go to school.  Maybe even go to concerts

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 13, 2020, 05:29:45 PM

So......been experiencing some minor symptoms since last Thursday, nothing that was alarming....stuffed up head and some minor body aches. I explained the body aches away from a pretty bad wipe out playing hockey a couple weeks ago because I've been hurting from it ever since. The first symptom Started last Wednesday night. Overnight I woke up with a bit of chills and felt 'weak'....then spent most of Thursday just feeling off a bit and on the toilet most of the day. But no respiratory issues. Breathing fine.....no chest pains.....no cough or sore throat.....and those mild symptoms just persisted through the weekend.

Then, last night I noticed I wasn't really tasting dinner  :omg:   I could taste it but it wasn't the vibrant taste you usually have when eating. Same thing today but then for the better part of today I've had some chest tightness also. Not getting short on breath or anything but just a little tight on the upper left side. My wife also started some symptoms yesterday. She actually drove to a drive up testing spot and got her and my youngest son swabbed because it was convenient.

I called my DR. and she just put in orders for me to get tested tomorrow morning at 8am. Supposed to be a 48 hour turn around for results.....but obviously I'm ordered to quarantine. Which we've been doing. I'm thinking the chances are that I've got the Rona'

We've been pretty safe but I mean.....my job requires me to go in and out of hospitals all day and my wife is a teacher of K-3 grade special needs kids. They don't adhere to the best of hygienic practices AND her school has handled this whole thing horribly concerning the protocols to protect teachers. Could have picked this thing up anywhere if we indeed do have it.

I'll let ya know either way but just wanted to throw it out there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 13, 2020, 05:35:17 PM

Wife going through the same thing Gary.  She came in contact,  though not close to employee that is positive.  Problem is, she is having sinus issues that are close to the covid symptoms.   She had the test Saturday so we are waiting.

I'm separate from her. Different rooms. No crossing paths. Disinfecting everything she uses.

I've been cooking and cleaning all.

My brother shamed me because I'm not staying out of work. It pissed me off because I let my boss know, talked to the safety manager and they said to work.

You are doing all the right things.  So I got tired of my brother's badgering and hung up on him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:40:19 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 13, 2020, 05:35:17 PM

My brother shamed me because I'm not staying out of work. It pissed me off because I let my boss know, talked to the safety manager and they said to work.

Not surprising. I know you don't work for Wal Mart directly, but even as a satellite, they don't care. Their jobs get a lot tougher if you're out. They have to let "people" above them know. Nobody wants to do that.

But if she tests positive, they may need to rethink that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:41:10 PM

@ Gary.

It was the hockey! They've shut down all of the youth leagues around here.

Hope you feel better!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 13, 2020, 05:42:47 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 13, 2020, 05:35:17 PM

She had the test Saturday so we are waiting.

Here's hoping for the best  :tup   We're hoping that it's just us being paranoid and maybe having a cold or something....but, both our jobs require us to interact with a lot of people. Especially with her being a teacher.....we have to get this clarified if we've got Covid or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 13, 2020, 05:45:09 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:41:10 PM

@ Gary.

It was the hockey! They've shut down all of the youth leagues around here.

Hope you feel better!

Tim....it could be. Can't rule it out. I mean, there are precautions and all but fact of the matter is it's a close quartered sport.


Just promise me if I end up being one of those stories of a 44 year old 'healthy' Father that quickly dies from Covid that maybe one day you'd find my kids and say something nice about me to them. Even if you have to lie about it.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:48:19 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 13, 2020, 05:45:09 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:41:10 PM

@ Gary.

It was the hockey! They've shut down all of the youth leagues around here.

Hope you feel better!

Tim....it could be. Can't rule it out. I mean, there are precautions and all but fact of the matter is it's a close quartered sport.


Just promise me if I end up being one of those stories of a 44 year old 'healthy' Father that quickly dies from Covid that maybe one day you'd find my kids and say something nice about me to them. Even if you have to lie about it.  :lol

Missouri is on the list. My son wants to see the arch, and I want to go to Kansas City, I was born there. I want to take in a Royals game.

I'll be sure to let them know! :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 13, 2020, 05:51:16 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:40:19 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 13, 2020, 05:35:17 PM

My brother shamed me because I'm not staying out of work. It pissed me off because I let my boss know, talked to the safety manager and they said to work.

Not surprising. I know you don't work for Wal Mart directly, but even as a satellite, they don't care. Their jobs get a lot tougher if you're out. They have to let "people" above them know. Nobody wants to do that.

But if she tests positive, they may need to rethink that.

She tests positive,  I get a test and I'm automatically out 14 days positive or not. 

Also, my company is not Wal Mart.  They are our customer. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 13, 2020, 05:53:09 PM

Fuckity fuck fuck fuck!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:53:34 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 13, 2020, 05:51:16 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 13, 2020, 05:40:19 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 13, 2020, 05:35:17 PM

My brother shamed me because I'm not staying out of work. It pissed me off because I let my boss know, talked to the safety manager and they said to work.

Not surprising. I know you don't work for Wal Mart directly, but even as a satellite, they don't care. Their jobs get a lot tougher if you're out. They have to let "people" above them know. Nobody wants to do that.

But if she tests positive, they may need to rethink that.

She tests positive,  I get a test and I'm automatically out 14 days positive or not. 

Also, my company is not Wal Mart.  They are our customer.

I know. I said that. ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 13, 2020, 05:55:54 PM

Then you should know Wal Mart has nothing to do with our policy.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 13, 2020, 06:07:08 PM

Yes!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 13, 2020, 06:13:39 PM

I'm nervous as all hell but I'm going overboard to be careful.  That's why I was pissed when my brother tried to give me his sanctimonious lecture while driving back from jamming with his friends.

Wtf, I haven't gone out with friends forever!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 13, 2020, 09:18:08 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 13, 2020, 05:03:25 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

And these days, "personal choice" means religious liberties which translates to religious privilege. In Texas, your child cannot enroll in public school  unless they have vaccinations - unless they get a religious exemption and in some states, parents are allowed to let their children die because they literally believe in "woo" and they won't vaccinate "their" children. Children have been killed simply because of what their parents believe. This has been happening for years!
That said, I would support a law that restricts rights of people who don't vaccinate.

This.  So much.  No shirt, no shoes, no vax-proof card, no service.

@ Ben... (serious question, and lord help me I have no idea why I'm asking it), why is the "freedom to choose" the option of getting very fucking sick, and potentially passing it along to others, so important to you? 

Regardless of your answer, I trust then you believe and respect medical professionals should have the freedom of choice whether to treat you if you're sick?  Businesses also should have the freedom of choice as to whether to allow you into their premises or to provide you goods or services?

It's quite important in certain aspects of life to me. And I do understand that, it's understanding the good and bad of that "freedom of choice", it's balancing this...Freedom and Security, you can't have one or the other. The freer you are the more you can do whatever you want. the more security you have to help protect you and others, the collective, the less freedom you have to do things in order to help protect the collective. Which in turn, As people have the "freedom of choice" to not get vaccinated, so does the Company have the "freedom of choice" to deny you. But, is it humane to deny these basic necessities. Are you willing to make more people homeless because they can not get those essential necessities. Are you gonna treat them exactly like the Lepers?

And according to this (https://www.baizlaw.com/can-doctor-deny-treatment-options/), Doctors can't deny you service in an Emergency Room, and can only deny you service based of these reasons:

Quote

There are a few reasons why a doctor can refuse to treat a patient. The most obvious of these is if the doctor does not treat patients with the patient’s specific condition. For example, an individual suffering from a throat infection cannot realistically expect a gynecologist to diagnose and treat his or her condition.

Other reasons why a doctor can deny treatment to an individual include:

The patient exhibits drug-seeking behavior;
The patient is disruptive or otherwise difficult to handle;
The doctor does not have a working relationship with the patient’s healthcare insurance provider;
The doctor’s personal convictions, such as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion for religious reasons or refusing to prescribe narcotics for pain; and
The patient or the patient’s spouse is a medical malpractice lawyer.

However, there are cases where doctors may not refuse to treat patients. In emergency situations, responding doctors and other healthcare providers are required to stabilize the patient’s condition regardless of the patient’s ability to pay for the treatment or provide proof of insurance. This is required by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA).

So due to EMTALA, These covid-19 cases that are going through the ER can't be denied service, until they get stabilized.

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 13, 2020, 04:45:00 PM

And these days, "personal choice" means religious liberties which translates to religious privilege. In Texas, your child cannot enroll in public school  unless they have vaccinations - unless they get a religious exemption and in some states, parents are allowed to let their children die because they literally believe in "woo" and they won't vaccinate "their" children. Children have been killed simply because of what their parents believe. This has been happening for years!
That said, I would support a law that restricts rights of people who don't vaccinate.

As much as you may not like it. Christianity, is a religion, and is protected under the Civil Rights Act.

Quote

There is one exception to the healthcare provider’s right to deny services: discrimination. Under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it is illegal for a healthcare provider to deny a patient treatment based on the patient’s age, sex, race, sexual orientation, religion, or national origin.

I am not Anti-Vaxx at all. I understand it's important for certain things. For me, it's too soon. So I am going to wait, and if things get better while I am waiting, then cool. I don't have to take it, like I do not take a Flu Vaccine. and if I get sick, I will not go out. The thing with Covid, is the mimicking of Walking Pneumonia. I wonder how many people actually did have Walking Pneumonia before covid-19?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/pneumonia-and-covid-19#treatment
https://www.webmd.com/lung/covid-and-pneumonia#2-6
https://www.abc27.com/news/whats-going-around-covid-19-respiratory-infections-stomach-bug-ear-infections/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 07:35:31 AM

I'd gather you see no sense of irony that you're literally citing a government enacted law that limits a doctor's "freedom of choice" (to protect, safeguard and treat the health of individual members of society), while decrying how you personally should  have that freedom of choice - to hell with how that might impact the health of other individual members of society.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:10:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 07:35:31 AM

I'd gather you see no sense of irony that you're literally citing a government enacted law that limits a doctor's "freedom of choice" (to protect, safeguard and treat the health of individual members of society), while decrying how you personally should  have that freedom of choice - to hell with how that might impact the health of other individual members of society.

You totally missed where I said...It's about balance. And also, I have said it's a very personal matter. That's up to the person's feelings of death. If that Old elderly person wants to see his family and risk dying of Covid rather than being alone. I would let them see their family.

That's the thing, you can protect people all you want. But when they make that personal decision to accept the risks, and consequences, they'll do it.

People have always found ways around Laws. Because of that "Freedom of Choice".

It's a part of being human.

And oh believe me. Life is full of Irony.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on December 14, 2020, 08:32:57 AM

Felt a bit under the weather today as the work day progressed, had a mild headache after lunch. Just arrived home, took my temperature and it's 38°C. Wtf.

No loss of senses so far, so I'm hopeful this isn't Covid. Gonna call the doctor and schedule the test tomorrow. On a bright side, if it is Covid, two weeks of sick leave will mean the working year is almost over for me. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:36:52 AM

Quote from: Evermind on December 14, 2020, 08:32:57 AM

Felt a bit under the weather today as the work day progressed, had a mild headache after lunch. Just arrived home, took my temperature and it's 38°C. Wtf.

No loss of senses so far, so I'm hopeful this isn't Covid. Gonna call the doctor and schedule the test tomorrow. On a bright side, if it is Covid, two weeks of sick leave will mean the working year is almost over for me. :)

Staying positive and keeping a good mind helps a lot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:10:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 07:35:31 AM

I'd gather you see no sense of irony that you're literally citing a government enacted law that limits a doctor's "freedom of choice" (to protect, safeguard and treat the health of individual members of society), while decrying how you personally should  have that freedom of choice - to hell with how that might impact the health of other individual members of society.

You totally missed where I said...It's about balance. And also, I have said it's a very personal matter. That's up to the person's feelings of death. If that Old elderly person wants to see his family and risk dying of Covid rather than being alone. I would let them see their family.

But that's where you're wrong ... it's NOT a very personal matter - you comprehend how the math of epidemiology works, right?  You think the future gmaillerdrakes or Queenshmeglands think it's a "personal choice" when they catch COVID because someone exercised THEIR freedoms to not vaccinate or mask?  "Personal" choices that affect dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of others aren't terribly personal.

Quote from: Evermind on December 14, 2020, 08:32:57 AM

Felt a bit under the weather today as the work day progressed, had a mild headache after lunch. Just arrived home, took my temperature and it's 38°C. Wtf.

No loss of senses so far, so I'm hopeful this isn't Covid. Gonna call the doctor and schedule the test tomorrow. On a bright side, if it is Covid, two weeks of sick leave will mean the working year is almost over for me. :)

FUCK!  COVID is spreading thru DTF!  While I'm trying to spread a little levity, I'm hoping it's nothing other than a normal sickness - for you, the Millers, and Shmeglands

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:36:52 AM

Staying positive and keeping a good mind helps a lot.

What in the actual fuck?  What is he supposed to do if it is COVID??  Meditate it away?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 14, 2020, 08:45:03 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 13, 2020, 09:18:08 PM

As much as you may not like it. Christianity, is a religion, and is protected under the Civil Rights Act.


[/quote]

For the record, the Civil Rights Act addresses labor laws. Religion is protected under the establishment clause in the constitution. And while I have MAJOR criticisms of christianity and wish it would die a quicker death, it's the religious privilege that I rail against in this conversation. Why is it that a certain class of people are elevated simply because they believe in "magic" and are willing to put others at risk for sickness and maybe death?

Now I know you're not an anti-vaxxer so the question is just me musing but if this virus mutates like the common flu then we're still at risk for now and in the future.

BTW - we're grunts so we won't be getting the vaccine anytime soon. Probably April or May so there is plenty of time to vet out the vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:56:57 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:10:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 07:35:31 AM

I'd gather you see no sense of irony that you're literally citing a government enacted law that limits a doctor's "freedom of choice" (to protect, safeguard and treat the health of individual members of society), while decrying how you personally should  have that freedom of choice - to hell with how that might impact the health of other individual members of society.

You totally missed where I said...It's about balance. And also, I have said it's a very personal matter. That's up to the person's feelings of death. If that Old elderly person wants to see his family and risk dying of Covid rather than being alone. I would let them see their family.

But that's where you're wrong ... it's NOT a very personal matter - you comprehend how the math of epidemiology works, right?  You think the future gmaillerdrakes or Queenshmeglands think it's a "personal choice" when they catch COVID because someone exercised THEIR freedoms to not vaccinate or mask?  "Personal" choices that affect dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of others aren't terribly personal.

Quote from: Evermind on December 14, 2020, 08:32:57 AM

Felt a bit under the weather today as the work day progressed, had a mild headache after lunch. Just arrived home, took my temperature and it's 38°C. Wtf.

No loss of senses so far, so I'm hopeful this isn't Covid. Gonna call the doctor and schedule the test tomorrow. On a bright side, if it is Covid, two weeks of sick leave will mean the working year is almost over for me. :)

FUCK!  COVID is spreading thru DTF!  While I'm trying to spread a little levity, I'm hoping it's nothing other than a normal sickness - for you, the Millers, and Shmeglands

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:36:52 AM

Staying positive and keeping a good mind helps a lot.

What in the actual fuck?  What is he supposed to do if it is COVID??  Meditate it away?

Are we so sure, we know exactly that it came from that person not wearing a mask? No.

It's very personal, otherwise people wouldn't be caring so much about getting the virus. They are personally worried, not only for themselves, but for the others in their family whose immunity is compromised by either Underlying Health Conditions, or not as good as it should be. I respect that. Which is why I wear a mask to make those people feel better, and make it in their mind it's working. While I can still have in my mind, it doesn't help much, when I could just use my shirt, as that is thicker than some mask material I have seen being worn.

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 14, 2020, 08:45:03 AM

Now I know you're not an anti-vaxxer so the question is just me musing but if this virus mutates like the common flu then we're still at risk for now and in the future.

BTW - we're grunts so we won't be getting the vaccine anytime soon. Probably April or May so there is plenty of time to vet out the vaccine.

Exactly, just like any other sicknesses we have, there is no cure. So what can we do that will help our immunity not be as susceptible to these sicknesses? And what has causes our immunity to be susceptible to these diseases/sicknesses?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 14, 2020, 08:59:29 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 14, 2020, 08:45:03 AM

BTW - we're grunts so we won't be getting the vaccine anytime soon. Probably April or May so there is plenty of time to vet out the vaccine.

If you are in the "I'm going to wait" crowd, waiting till April or May makes no sense, you'll want to wait another 30 years.  If you truly are in the "wait and see" crowd. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on December 14, 2020, 08:59:43 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:36:52 AM

Staying positive and keeping a good mind helps a lot.

What in the actual fuck?  What is he supposed to do if it is COVID??  Meditate it away?

:lol

Well, I'll follow the doctor's directions, but I guess staying positive won't hurt either. If I got it, I'm honestly not surprised with all the business trips and loads of contact with different people at work for the past few months. We'll see in a few days! Thanks for the good wishes though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 14, 2020, 09:05:43 AM

Let's hope it's just a random flu!  :hat crossed fingers!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 14, 2020, 09:07:45 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:56:57 AM

And what has causes our immunity to be susceptible to these diseases/sicknesses?

Micro organisms' ability to evolve faster than humans.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 14, 2020, 09:16:44 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 14, 2020, 08:59:29 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 14, 2020, 08:45:03 AM

BTW - we're grunts so we won't be getting the vaccine anytime soon. Probably April or May so there is plenty of time to vet out the vaccine.

If you are in the "I'm going to wait" crowd, waiting till April or May makes no sense, you'll want to wait another 30 years.  If you truly are in the "wait and see" crowd.

My comments were referring to logistics. I just don't see how the vaccine will be available to the general public before April but I truly hope I'm wrong. It also won't come as a surprise if complications with the vaccine cause a pause in distribution.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 14, 2020, 09:22:53 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 14, 2020, 09:16:44 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 14, 2020, 08:59:29 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 14, 2020, 08:45:03 AM

BTW - we're grunts so we won't be getting the vaccine anytime soon. Probably April or May so there is plenty of time to vet out the vaccine.

If you are in the "I'm going to wait" crowd, waiting till April or May makes no sense, you'll want to wait another 30 years.  If you truly are in the "wait and see" crowd.

My comments were referring to logistics. I just don't see how the vaccine will be available to the general public before April but I truly hope I'm wrong. It also won't come as a surprise if complications with the vaccine cause a pause in distribution.

Wasn't really directing that statement towards you, but the "wait and see" crowd.  Vaccines are starting to be given in NJ on Tuesday.  And I'm not part of the early phase, so like you, I won't be able to get one until April or May either, but those few months likely won't show much in terms of whether the vaccine has long term effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 10:13:49 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:10:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 07:35:31 AM

I'd gather you see no sense of irony that you're literally citing a government enacted law that limits a doctor's "freedom of choice" (to protect, safeguard and treat the health of individual members of society), while decrying how you personally should  have that freedom of choice - to hell with how that might impact the health of other individual members of society.

You totally missed where I said...It's about balance. And also, I have said it's a very personal matter. That's up to the person's feelings of death. If that Old elderly person wants to see his family and risk dying of Covid rather than being alone. I would let them see their family.

But that's where you're wrong ... it's NOT a very personal matter - you comprehend how the math of epidemiology works, right?  You think the future gmaillerdrakes or Queenshmeglands think it's a "personal choice" when they catch COVID because someone exercised THEIR freedoms to not vaccinate or mask?  "Personal" choices that affect dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of others aren't terribly personal.

But, ultimately, it is.  "Good cases make bad law" couldn't be more relevant here.  We're focusing on one specific aspect - harm to others - because of one component of that aspect - the transmissibility.

But really, at the end of the day, we're talking about someone's specific, personal health.  I'm not saying there's not a balance to be had here, and certainly there's the argument of the greater good, but I'm just not sure it's the "slamdunk" that you're making it out to be.   There's delicate aspects to all of this that unfortunately have to be considered.   We do require, for example, vaccination history to send our kids to school, but it's a process, and the school nurse - a professional with ethical constraints - controls that.  My neighbor doesn't know and shouldn't know the vaccination history of me or my kids.   

HIPAA is a thing for a reason. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 10:13:49 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:10:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 07:35:31 AM

I'd gather you see no sense of irony that you're literally citing a government enacted law that limits a doctor's "freedom of choice" (to protect, safeguard and treat the health of individual members of society), while decrying how you personally should  have that freedom of choice - to hell with how that might impact the health of other individual members of society.

You totally missed where I said...It's about balance. And also, I have said it's a very personal matter. That's up to the person's feelings of death. If that Old elderly person wants to see his family and risk dying of Covid rather than being alone. I would let them see their family.

But that's where you're wrong ... it's NOT a very personal matter - you comprehend how the math of epidemiology works, right?  You think the future gmaillerdrakes or Queenshmeglands think it's a "personal choice" when they catch COVID because someone exercised THEIR freedoms to not vaccinate or mask?  "Personal" choices that affect dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of others aren't terribly personal.

But, ultimately, it is.  "Good cases make bad law" couldn't be more relevant here.  We're focusing on one specific aspect - harm to others - because of one component of that aspect - the transmissibility.

But really, at the end of the day, we're talking about someone's specific, personal health.  I'm not saying there's not a balance to be had here, and certainly there's the argument of the greater good, but I'm just not sure it's the "slamdunk" that you're making it out to be.   There's delicate aspects to all of this that unfortunately have to be considered.   We do require, for example, vaccination history to send our kids to school, but it's a process, and the school nurse - a professional with ethical constraints - controls that.  My neighbor doesn't know and shouldn't know the vaccination history of me or my kids.   

HIPAA is a thing for a reason. 

I'm honestly not surprised to see you pop in here with a contrarian view  :biggrin: ;).  Though, I'm utterly confused how anything you just stated connects to what I'm stating. 

None-the-less, what other aspects should we be considering other than harm to others (serious question)?  And it's not just the transmissibility, it's also the severity of the virus.  The common cold is just as transmissible, but we don't have a 183 page thread (less than a year old) dedicated to colds.  I've never advocated for public information of who's vaccinated and who isn't.  I'm not saying we all need a tag on our ears, or tattoo on our forearm, ffs.

I'm also confused and unsure how HIPAA plays a role here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 11:27:56 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 10:13:49 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2020, 08:10:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 07:35:31 AM

I'd gather you see no sense of irony that you're literally citing a government enacted law that limits a doctor's "freedom of choice" (to protect, safeguard and treat the health of individual members of society), while decrying how you personally should  have that freedom of choice - to hell with how that might impact the health of other individual members of society.

You totally missed where I said...It's about balance. And also, I have said it's a very personal matter. That's up to the person's feelings of death. If that Old elderly person wants to see his family and risk dying of Covid rather than being alone. I would let them see their family.

But that's where you're wrong ... it's NOT a very personal matter - you comprehend how the math of epidemiology works, right?  You think the future gmaillerdrakes or Queenshmeglands think it's a "personal choice" when they catch COVID because someone exercised THEIR freedoms to not vaccinate or mask?  "Personal" choices that affect dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of others aren't terribly personal.

But, ultimately, it is.  "Good cases make bad law" couldn't be more relevant here.  We're focusing on one specific aspect - harm to others - because of one component of that aspect - the transmissibility.

But really, at the end of the day, we're talking about someone's specific, personal health.  I'm not saying there's not a balance to be had here, and certainly there's the argument of the greater good, but I'm just not sure it's the "slamdunk" that you're making it out to be.   There's delicate aspects to all of this that unfortunately have to be considered.   We do require, for example, vaccination history to send our kids to school, but it's a process, and the school nurse - a professional with ethical constraints - controls that.  My neighbor doesn't know and shouldn't know the vaccination history of me or my kids.   

HIPAA is a thing for a reason. 

I'm honestly not surprised to see you pop in here with a contrarian view  :biggrin: ;).  Though, I'm utterly confused how anything you just stated connects to what I'm stating. 

None-the-less, what other aspects should we be considering other than harm to others (serious question)?  And it's not just the transmissibility, it's also the severity of the virus.  The common cold is just as transmissible, but we don't have a 183 page thread (less than a year old) dedicated to colds.  I've never advocated for public information of who's vaccinated and who isn't.  I'm not saying we all need a tag on our ears, or tattoo on our forearm, ffs.

I'm also confused and unsure how HIPAA plays a role here.

Because we're talking about people's medical conditions.  I had another paragraph that I edited because it's potentially inflammatory, but it generally centered on the idea that the vast majority of us - including me - have issues that we would not want others - ex-wives, employers, insurers - to have ready access to, even if there was potential harm to them.

"Harm to others" is a consideration; one of many, not a decisive one in and of itself.  Plenty of arguments can be made that there are situations where "harm" is not the primary consideration.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2020, 11:34:40 AM

When shouldn't harm to another be someone primary concern though?  It's that selfish not to consider that a priority?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 14, 2020, 11:34:40 AM

When shouldn't harm to another be someone primary concern though?  It's that selfish not to consider that a priority?

There's always the balance of the individual versus the group, and the competing interests of various rights.   If someone comes in my house, I can shoot them; the concern of "harm" to them is secondary to the concern of my own well-being and my right to property.  There's always the balance of what is the harm, too.   Is the chance of one person POSSIBLY getting COVID or not worth the trade off of, say, allowing employers to know whether any employee is on mood-stabilizers, or has a history of alcholism, or has HIV-AIDS? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 14, 2020, 11:46:01 AM

Yes.

Someone being on mood-stabilizers does not affect others.  Someone being an alcoholic does not affect others, nor does them having HIV-AIDS.  Someone having COVID-19 absolutely presents a threat to the health of others.  It's not just a "possibility", it is a probability.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2020, 12:05:24 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 14, 2020, 11:34:40 AM

When shouldn't harm to another be someone primary concern though?  It's that selfish not to consider that a priority?

There's always the balance of the individual versus the group, and the competing interests of various rights.   If someone comes in my house, I can shoot them; the concern of "harm" to them is secondary to the concern of my own well-being and my right to property.  There's always the balance of what is the harm, too.   Is the chance of one person POSSIBLY getting COVID or not worth the trade off of, say, allowing employers to know whether any employee is on mood-stabilizers, or has a history of alcholism, or has HIV-AIDS?

Those are variable not inflicted by others.  Using a shooting is not the same as Putting your personal believes over the better good.  I know you are saying they are both intents but there is a huge difference between protecting one's house and wearing a mask.  Luck for us people don't shoot others for not wearing them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 12:19:58 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 14, 2020, 11:34:40 AM

When shouldn't harm to another be someone primary concern though?  It's that selfish not to consider that a priority?

There's always the balance of the individual versus the group, and the competing interests of various rights.   If someone comes in my house, I can shoot them; the concern of "harm" to them is secondary to the concern of my own well-being and my right to property.  There's always the balance of what is the harm, too.   Is the chance of one person POSSIBLY getting COVID or not worth the trade off of, say, allowing employers to know whether any employee is on mood-stabilizers, or has a history of alcholism, or has HIV-AIDS?

When did anyone (here) imply anything about opening everyones medical kimono??  I'm at a total loss as to how you've made that leap.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 01:00:40 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 14, 2020, 11:46:01 AM

Yes.

Someone being on mood-stabilizers does not affect others.  Someone being an alcoholic does not affect others, nor does them having HIV-AIDS.  Someone having COVID-19 absolutely presents a threat to the health of others.  It's not just a "possibility", it is a probability.

That's one perception, from the lens of COVID.  I believe that's limiting this to simple "being sick too".   Those things do in fact have harm for others beyond just "do I get sick too?" in certain circumstances.   

Do I want my employer making a hiring decision based on whether I have AIDS or not?   Does that employer want to have to address that issue with other employees?  Do they want to assume the risk of perhaps lost time or lapses in productivity by my hiring?   Do they want to absorb the hit on their insurance premiums?   

This is why I said "good cases make bad law".  We're - well, I'm - talking about not just the direct consequences, but also the universe of UNINTENDED consequences to decisions that seem to make sense in a very narrow application.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 01:04:01 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 12:19:58 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 14, 2020, 11:34:40 AM

When shouldn't harm to another be someone primary concern though?  It's that selfish not to consider that a priority?

There's always the balance of the individual versus the group, and the competing interests of various rights.   If someone comes in my house, I can shoot them; the concern of "harm" to them is secondary to the concern of my own well-being and my right to property.  There's always the balance of what is the harm, too.   Is the chance of one person POSSIBLY getting COVID or not worth the trade off of, say, allowing employers to know whether any employee is on mood-stabilizers, or has a history of alcholism, or has HIV-AIDS?

When did anyone (here) imply anything about opening everyones medical kimono??  I'm at a total loss as to how you've made that leap.

Isn't that what we're talking about?   I thought this started with a comment by Ben-Jamin about the choice of being vaccinated, and the personal nature of such a decision (and it's consequences).   You both were arguing whether this is "personal" or not.  What is more personal than one's medical history?

If that's not the conversation - or a direct implication of the conversation - then disregard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 01:27:46 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 01:04:01 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 12:19:58 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 14, 2020, 11:34:40 AM

When shouldn't harm to another be someone primary concern though?  It's that selfish not to consider that a priority?

There's always the balance of the individual versus the group, and the competing interests of various rights.   If someone comes in my house, I can shoot them; the concern of "harm" to them is secondary to the concern of my own well-being and my right to property.  There's always the balance of what is the harm, too.   Is the chance of one person POSSIBLY getting COVID or not worth the trade off of, say, allowing employers to know whether any employee is on mood-stabilizers, or has a history of alcholism, or has HIV-AIDS?

When did anyone (here) imply anything about opening everyones medical kimono??  I'm at a total loss as to how you've made that leap.

Isn't that what we're talking about?   I thought this started with a comment by Ben-Jamin about the choice of being vaccinated, and the personal nature of such a decision (and it's consequences).   You both were arguing whether this is "personal" or not.  What is more personal than one's medical history?

If that's not the conversation - or a direct implication of the conversation - then disregard.

Well, maybe it's my mistake then.  What *I* was talking about regarding "personal choices" was in TAKING a/the vaccine, not in disclosing it.  If that wasn't clear, mea culpa.

The disclosure part that I touched on before that was about businesses and government's requiring proof of vaccination in certain circumstances - which to a degree is already happening ... requirement to provide proof of a negative test to avoid certain travel restrictions.  I see this being tantamount to proof of age when being served alcohol, or entering a bar/club.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 01:30:48 PM

I think it depends who's asking, but generally I agree with you.  You are free not to go in if you don't want to offer the info, just like at a bar.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 14, 2020, 02:05:47 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 01:27:46 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 01:04:01 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 14, 2020, 12:19:58 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 14, 2020, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 14, 2020, 11:34:40 AM

When shouldn't harm to another be someone primary concern though?  It's that selfish not to consider that a priority?

There's always the balance of the individual versus the group, and the competing interests of various rights.   If someone comes in my house, I can shoot them; the concern of "harm" to them is secondary to the concern of my own well-being and my right to property.  There's always the balance of what is the harm, too.   Is the chance of one person POSSIBLY getting COVID or not worth the trade off of, say, allowing employers to know whether any employee is on mood-stabilizers, or has a history of alcholism, or has HIV-AIDS?

When did anyone (here) imply anything about opening everyones medical kimono??  I'm at a total loss as to how you've made that leap.

Isn't that what we're talking about?   I thought this started with a comment by Ben-Jamin about the choice of being vaccinated, and the personal nature of such a decision (and it's consequences).   You both were arguing whether this is "personal" or not.  What is more personal than one's medical history?

If that's not the conversation - or a direct implication of the conversation - then disregard.

Well, maybe it's my mistake then.  What *I* was talking about regarding "personal choices" was in TAKING a/the vaccine, not in disclosing it.  If that wasn't clear, mea culpa.

The disclosure part that I touched on before that was about businesses and government's requiring proof of vaccination in certain circumstances - which to a degree is already happening ... requirement to provide proof of a negative test to avoid certain travel restrictions.  I see this being tantamount to proof of age when being served alcohol, or entering a bar/club.

Just had our weekly team meeting and I brought up if we will be required to be vaccinated and it seems likely not only for international travel but to return to the office.  While none of that is set, it seems likely you'll have to show proof of vaccination to do certain things going forward.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2020, 02:50:13 PM

The difference is this is a global issue. Not a personal freedoms issue.  When this is something that happens once every century or so people should take it seriously.

I was thinking when was the 1st time you heard of anti vaxxers?  Hell parents used to search out someone with measles or chickenpox to pair with their child back in the day. Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on December 14, 2020, 05:48:12 PM

This page reminded me of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_White

I would wager that the vast majority of those who wouldn't let their kids go to school with him, due to their lack of knowledge (or ignorance) of the disease, are also ones who ignore the safeguards needed regarding C19. 

Apples and oranges as to transmission.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on December 14, 2020, 08:17:49 PM

Hard to keep up with thread, but I hope everyone, including Gary and Joe and their families, stays safe and manages all of this as best as possible. :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 08:54:18 AM

Welp....it's confirmed. Me and the Mrs. have Covid.  :omg:  Just doing our part to pump up those numbers.  :lol   As of this morning I feel pretty good actually, I seem to have passed through most of whatever was the 'bad' symptoms. That being said, it was never really all that 'bad'. Lots of head congestion, minimal coughing, never had a fever, had chills one night, chest tightness one night....but most of it felt like a head cold. My wife the same way. We're waiting for our youngest sons test to come back but he's been 'acting' fine...as well as our other two. So now, we quarantine!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 15, 2020, 08:56:57 AM

Best wishes for it being what you just described, the "normal" sie of the virus. Get welll soon!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 09:07:07 AM

Youngest son is positive.  :'(      I don't care about 'me'.....but this is getting personal now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 15, 2020, 09:14:14 AM

Well, I'm glad the symptoms are mild and I'm sure your family will stay in and recover soon.  I've got to get a test this weekend and then stay home until my flight Tuesday.  I just hope I don't come back positive and have to cancel my plans, I mean, I feel fine, but who knows with this virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 15, 2020, 09:16:39 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 09:07:07 AM

Youngest son is positive.  :'(      I don't care about 'me'.....but this is getting personal now.

How old is he? I'm not a praying man of any sort, but I'll be hoping for all of your health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 15, 2020, 09:52:36 AM

Glad the symptoms are mild, hope they stay that way Gary!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 10:03:13 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 15, 2020, 09:16:39 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 09:07:07 AM

Youngest son is positive.  :'(      I don't care about 'me'.....but this is getting personal now.

How old is he? I'm not a praying man of any sort, but I'll be hoping for all of your health.

He's 10. As I mentioned....the way he's acting and going about his day you'd never guess he was sick. But, I'll admit....my mind has been wandering and messing with me ever since he was confirmed positive. Trying to drown out all the horror stories and just focus on the fact he's doing well with mild symptoms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 15, 2020, 10:06:23 AM

Fuckity fuck.  Hugs to all the Millers... virtual hugs of course.  Wish there was more I/we could do for ya.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 15, 2020, 10:12:39 AM

I'm not one to give false hope, but it seems possible that since your symptoms were relatively mild, maybe that will hold true for the rest of your family.


I was feeling chills last Thursday evening, but (foolishly) wrote it off to having spent the day in the chilly basement wearing Mickey Mouse pajamas instead of my usual sweats (long story).  Woke up Friday feeling like shit, definitely running a fever, but I couldn't find the thermometer and didn't care that much anyway.  I spent the day in bed, sleeping and hoping it's not Covid.  Had a cough, but it wasn't a dry cough, it was whatever the opposite of a dry cough is.  Lots of stuff.  Also, I still had my sense of smell.

Finally found the thermometer Friday night, 101.4 F.  Ugh.  Back to bed.  Saturday it was down to 99.8 F.  Spent most of Saturday in bed, too.  Still had smell, still no dry cough, actually no symptoms other than the fever.  Sunday morning I was at 98.6 F.  After three days in bed and no fever, I went back to work Monday morning (that is, I went down to the basement to my office to work).  I wore sweats.

I know the symptoms vary widely, but I honestly can't even imagine that this was Covid.  Meanwhile, some people are saying I should get tested.  At this point... why?  If I had it, I beat it.  Since I haven't left the house in a week and a half, everyone in my house has already been exposed for the same amount of time and no one else has showed any symptoms.  Obviously if that changes, we'll take action, but at this point I don't see the test as revealing anything other than just "knowing for sure" that I didn't have it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 15, 2020, 10:14:09 AM

Dammit.  I'm sorry Gary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 15, 2020, 10:41:22 AM

It's stated most whom get this will only get these mild symptoms, and won't need to go to the hospital. It's the one's who have underlying conditions, where a sickness can cause their underlying condition to worsen, that should be way more worried about it. If you or anyone in your family doesn't have these, and know you are healthy, you shouldn't worry as you should be fine.

In my community, I am doing my part by staying away from those with Underlying Conditions, and those that are more susceptible. They will let me know, because I am not a mind reader, and I will let them know I am fine with the risk, and if they need anything since they are not able to leave the house for their safety. We get tested regardless, I don't mind that. All of our Native Tribal Communities are locked down, and have curfews, set hours, and set days, it depends on the tribe. We do have those that live outside the reservations/villages, that are not allowed to come in. It's tough, but we still push on. Also, there are those that find ways around it, and meet people outside from other villages, it's a thing you can't control. It's basically an honor system.

I hope and pray for the best for you and the others who have contacted Covid. And also, those who are dealing with a sickness, regardless if it's covid or not. It's never fun to be sick, and in pain. That's the worst part of life, for me anyways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 15, 2020, 10:58:16 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 10:03:13 AM

Quote from: Adami on December 15, 2020, 09:16:39 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 09:07:07 AM

Youngest son is positive.  :'(      I don't care about 'me'.....but this is getting personal now.

How old is he? I'm not a praying man of any sort, but I'll be hoping for all of your health.

He's 10. As I mentioned....the way he's acting and going about his day you'd never guess he was sick. But, I'll admit....my mind has been wandering and messing with me ever since he was confirmed positive. Trying to drown out all the horror stories and just focus on the fact he's doing well with mild symptoms.

Prayers, man.   I know the feeling.  My daughter was tested positive at school in October, and it's difficult. She didn't have ANY symptoms - literally not one - and yet I still haven't shaken the sort of vague feeling of doom.  I know it's just the unknown, but that doesn't make it any easier.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 15, 2020, 11:14:53 AM

Just got lucky. Wife came back negative.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 15, 2020, 11:16:37 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 15, 2020, 11:14:53 AM

Just got lucky. Wife came back negative.

You sure it wasn't the other way around?  :) :) :)

Happy for you both. Seriously. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 15, 2020, 11:17:11 AM

I told her to go finish the laundry.  LOL

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 11:22:28 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 15, 2020, 11:14:53 AM

Just got lucky. Wife came back negative.

Fantastic News Joe  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 15, 2020, 11:33:08 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 15, 2020, 11:14:53 AM

Just got lucky. Wife came back negative.

Phew!  That's a relief ... none more than for the Queen herself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 15, 2020, 11:35:06 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 15, 2020, 11:17:11 AM

I told her to go finish the laundry.  LOL

Well, she's not sick, so why not!   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 15, 2020, 12:11:22 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 15, 2020, 11:35:06 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 15, 2020, 11:17:11 AM

I told her to go finish the laundry.  LOL

Well, she's not sick, so why not!   :)

She's been going stir crazy in that room. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 15, 2020, 01:48:50 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 08:54:18 AM

Welp....it's confirmed. Me and the Mrs. have Covid.  :omg:  Just doing our part to pump up those numbers.  :lol   As of this morning I feel pretty good actually, I seem to have passed through most of whatever was the 'bad' symptoms. That being said, it was never really all that 'bad'. Lots of head congestion, minimal coughing, never had a fever, had chills one night, chest tightness one night....but most of it felt like a head cold. My wife the same way. We're waiting for our youngest sons test to come back but he's been 'acting' fine...as well as our other two. So now, we quarantine!

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 09:07:07 AM

Youngest son is positive.  :'(      I don't care about 'me'.....but this is getting personal now.

Damn Gary.  All my best to you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 15, 2020, 06:03:17 PM

THE HELL GARY!?  We told you to be safe!   


In all seriousness though, glad to hear the fam seems to be doing good despite the news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on December 15, 2020, 06:30:41 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 08:54:18 AM

Welp....it's confirmed. Me and the Mrs. have Covid.  :omg:  Just doing our part to pump up those numbers.  :lol   As of this morning I feel pretty good actually, I seem to have passed through most of whatever was the 'bad' symptoms. That being said, it was never really all that 'bad'. Lots of head congestion, minimal coughing, never had a fever, had chills one night, chest tightness one night....but most of it felt like a head cold. My wife the same way. We're waiting for our youngest sons test to come back but he's been 'acting' fine...as well as our other two. So now, we quarantine!

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2020, 09:07:07 AM

Youngest son is positive.  :'(      I don't care about 'me'.....but this is getting personal now.

Damn. Hope you all keep the symptoms at a minimum and recover ASAP, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 08:16:18 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

There's a book I've cited more times than I can count:  "How Risky Is It, Really?", by Dave Ropeik (https://www.amazon.com/How-Risky-Really-Fears-Always/dp/0071629696).  In the prologue, he gives a stark example: a woman, we'll call her Susan, arguing passionately to a school board that her daughter's school HAD to be shut down, even though it meant bussing kids to other schools and costing tens of thousands of dollars, all in response to a detection of TCE (a known carcinogen) in the air in the library, at levels WELL below safety standards.   In short, it wasn't a danger.   The author then related this:  "Susan stood there in front of the TV cameras and reporters, flushed with passion, with [daughter] Stephie at her side.  And as she talked about her fear of those trace amounts of TCE, she anxiously puffed away on her tenth cigarette of the night.  And mother and daughter were also taking another big risk:  both were significantly overweight."

Names have been changed to protect the guilty, but this is a true story, according to the author.  We - humans - are NOT GOOD at judging risk magnitude when 'proximity' is also a factor.  It's called risk perception.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

These Vaccines, don't have the Decades of research. They were just made, in labs, to fight this new strain. They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy. They say watch for it, but shouldn't there be more research to be for sure that Cerebral Palsy isn't or is a concern, instead of saying...Oh just watch out for it.

Also, the recovery might be long, but they still recover. We don't even know for sure what long term effects the Pfizer and other Newly created vaccines can have, as there are no tests done, it's why some are saying "They're testing it on us". It's too much of a rush.

Quote from: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 08:16:18 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

There's a book I've cited more times than I can count:  "How Risky Is It, Really?", by Dave Ropeik (https://www.amazon.com/How-Risky-Really-Fears-Always/dp/0071629696).  In the prologue, he gives a stark example: a woman, we'll call her Susan, arguing passionately to a school board that her daughter's school HAD to be shut down, even though it meant bussing kids to other schools and costing tens of thousands of dollars, all in response to a detection of TCE (a known carcinogen) in the air in the library, at levels WELL below safety standards.   In short, it wasn't a danger.   The author then related this:  "Susan stood there in front of the TV cameras and reporters, flushed with passion, with [daughter] Stephie at her side.  And as she talked about her fear of those trace amounts of TCE, she anxiously puffed away on her tenth cigarette of the night.  And mother and daughter were also taking another big risk:  both were significantly overweight."

Names have been changed to protect the guilty, but this is a true story, according to the author.  We - humans - are NOT GOOD at judging risk magnitude when 'proximity' is also a factor.  It's called risk perception.

Yup, and as a parent, I could just not send my child to school if I thought it was a risk. and if more people decided to do that due to the concern, then the school has no choice but to shut down the school. Did that lady have anyone else support her, or was she the only one that the cameras decided to talk too, and not the other parents?

Anyways, Risk Perception, plays in part with Personal Choice.

Quote

Risk perception refers to how a person perceives the risk associated with a specific activity or event. Just about every activity, from grocery shopping to skydiving, has some type of risk associated with it. Most people weigh the potential for danger against the benefits of the activity and decide whether to go through with it. Risk perception is highly subjective, with each person making their own decision about the potential danger involved in various activities.

https://www.wise-geek.com/what-is-risk-perception.htm

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 16, 2020, 08:58:07 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

These Vaccines, don't have the Decades of research. They were just made, in labs, to fight this new strain. They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy. They say watch for it, but shouldn't there be more research to be for sure that Cerebral Palsy isn't or is a concern, instead of saying...Oh just watch out for it.

Who is "they"?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: WildRanger on December 16, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

I think Bill Gates is the first guy who should publicly get the COVID vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 16, 2020, 09:05:18 AM

Quote from: WildRanger on December 16, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

I think Bill Gates is the first guy who should publicly get the COVID vaccine.

Too late?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 16, 2020, 09:06:53 AM

Quote from: WildRanger on December 16, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

I think Bill Gates is the first guy who should publicly get the COVID vaccine.

Seeing as he and his wife have donated $150M+ to the vaccine's distribution efforts (and $1.6B for the development of), I'd be fine with that.

You are aware though that people have been getting the vaccine for several days now, yes?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 16, 2020, 09:16:00 AM

Quote from: WildRanger on December 16, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

I think Bill Gates is the first guy who should publicly get the COVID vaccine.

And the reason why someone who spent a lot of his personal fortune to help fight against pandemics (and therefore was better posed to understand the threats of another pandemic, just like people who study earthquakes are better posed to understand which zones are more at risk) should publicy get a vaccine first is..........?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 09:23:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 16, 2020, 08:58:07 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

These Vaccines, don't have the Decades of research. They were just made, in labs, to fight this new strain. They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy. They say watch for it, but shouldn't there be more research to be for sure that Cerebral Palsy isn't or is a concern, instead of saying...Oh just watch out for it.

Who is "they"?

Here, I'll look it up for you...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/cdc-monitors-for-bells-palsy-among-pfizer-vaccine-recipients-sees-no-causal-relationship.html

Quote

U.S. officials plan to continue watching for any adverse reactions to Pfizer’s vaccine in the health-care workers and nursing home residents who receive it, Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, said during a meeting of the Food and Drug Administration Thursday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: WildRanger on December 16, 2020, 09:37:11 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 16, 2020, 09:16:00 AM

Quote from: WildRanger on December 16, 2020, 09:00:56 AM

I think Bill Gates is the first guy who should publicly get the COVID vaccine.

And the reason why someone who spent a lot of his personal fortune to help fight against pandemics (and therefore was better posed to understand the threats of another pandemic, just like people who study earthquakes are better posed to understand which zones are more at risk) should publicy get a vaccine first is..........?

We can't agree here, because you think Bill Gates is a GOOD guy, but I think he isn't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 16, 2020, 09:42:21 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 09:23:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 16, 2020, 08:58:07 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

These Vaccines, don't have the Decades of research. They were just made, in labs, to fight this new strain. They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy. They say watch for it, but shouldn't there be more research to be for sure that Cerebral Palsy isn't or is a concern, instead of saying...Oh just watch out for it.

Who is "they"?

Here, I'll look it up for you...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/cdc-monitors-for-bells-palsy-among-pfizer-vaccine-recipients-sees-no-causal-relationship.html

Quote

U.S. officials plan to continue watching for any adverse reactions to Pfizer’s vaccine in the health-care workers and nursing home residents who receive it, Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, said during a meeting of the Food and Drug Administration Thursday.

Got it. So there's absolutely nothing linking the vaccine to the cases of bells palsy that were observed.

I feel like it's really dangerous when people use language like "They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy". Nobody is saying that. Statements like that are interpreted by many to mean "cerebral palsy has been an observed side effect of the vaccine", and it's why comment sections all over the internet are overflowing with misinformation. If you made that comment on FB, and 10,000 other people saw it instead of a few dozen on DTF, it'd lead to people making poorly informed decisions and having irrational and incorrect fears. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 16, 2020, 10:06:11 AM

The headline alone... "CDC will monitor for Bell’s palsy among Pfizer vaccine recipients, but sees no causal relationship"

And of course they will continue to monitor for adverse reactions! Doesn't mean they expect any.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:44:24 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 16, 2020, 09:42:21 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 09:23:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 16, 2020, 08:58:07 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

These Vaccines, don't have the Decades of research. They were just made, in labs, to fight this new strain. They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy. They say watch for it, but shouldn't there be more research to be for sure that Cerebral Palsy isn't or is a concern, instead of saying...Oh just watch out for it.

Who is "they"?

Here, I'll look it up for you...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/cdc-monitors-for-bells-palsy-among-pfizer-vaccine-recipients-sees-no-causal-relationship.html

Quote

U.S. officials plan to continue watching for any adverse reactions to Pfizer’s vaccine in the health-care workers and nursing home residents who receive it, Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, said during a meeting of the Food and Drug Administration Thursday.

Got it. So there's absolutely nothing linking the vaccine to the cases of bells palsy that were observed.

I feel like it's really dangerous when people use language like "They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy". Nobody is saying that. Statements like that are interpreted by many to mean "cerebral palsy has been an observed side effect of the vaccine", and it's why comment sections all over the internet are overflowing with misinformation. If you made that comment on FB, and 10,000 other people saw it instead of a few dozen on DTF, it'd lead to people making poorly informed decisions and having irrational and incorrect fears. 

And peoples Risk Perception has them not wanting to risk getting Cerebral Palsy. So they won't get the vaccine. Many people have a Risk Perception of the vaccine that is high, and really don't want to get those other side-effects as well.

As I read Stads link. I found an article about "Risk Perception" and it says there are factors that can attribute to ones "Risk Perception".

Quote

In some cases, a person’s risk perception can be skewed by life events, making him or her believe that something is far riskier than statistics indicate it is. For example, statistically speaking, most planes make it to their destination without crashing. Those who have lost a loved one in a plane crash, however, overestimate the risk involved in flying and may develop a phobia about using that mode of transportation.

Psychological disorders can also play a role in altering risk perception. Someone with anxiety disorder may overestimate the risk associated with everyday tasks, such as driving to work or giving an important presentation in front of a group of colleagues. Other disorders can cause affected individuals to underestimate the risk of an activity. Drugs and alcohol can also significantly impact the user’s ability to properly assess risk. Alcohol, for example, tends to lower inhibitions and allows drinkers to believe they are less susceptible to harm.

https://www.wise-geek.com/what-is-risk-perception.htm


I am just showing reasons, for why people would not want to get a vaccine, and why it's a very personal choice that no one should mandate for anyone. Just because a disease can potentially be "cured", doesn't mean it won't ever return again.

I also, see the many reasons for why a vaccine is useful. It helps immensely with the severe Allergic Reactions, the Epi-Pens are helpful in that regard.

And I am also, offering possible solutions, and ideas for what can be done for our health, and to slow a future pandemic. Because these Virus' are also a form of life as they evolve and adapt and get stronger. So we should be looking at why our health is bad, and causing us to have a lot of Underlying Conditions that this Disease can enhance and make even more severe. What is that cause for our health being the way it is. Will people accept that cause of bad health and change it to better their health? That is another thing altogether, as it relates to Stubbornness and Will.


Remember using Encyclopedias as a source...
https://www.britannica.com/science/vaccine

Quote from: Chino on December 16, 2020, 09:42:21 AM

If you made that comment on FB, and 10,000 other people saw it instead of a few dozen on DTF, it'd lead to people making poorly informed decisions and having irrational and incorrect fears. 

I really understand what you mean here. And I get it. But then that is not my fault at all. What it does, is it shows how people can't be bothered to look up the information for themselves, especially when it's way easier to have access to that information, and take the time to research. They actually don't want to take the time and will believe what I say without actually looking it up. I find that even more perplexing. And that is what Social Media projects a lot of. People blindly accepting anothers opinion as fact.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on December 16, 2020, 10:48:02 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:44:24 AM

I am just showing reasons, for why people would not want to get a vaccine, and why it's a very personal choice that no one should mandate for anyone.

 It is in fact THE VERY OPPOSITE of personal choice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:52:29 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 16, 2020, 10:48:02 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:44:24 AM

I am just showing reasons, for why people would not want to get a vaccine, and why it's a very personal choice that no one should mandate for anyone.

 It is in fact THE VERY OPPOSITE of personal choice.

Can you explain why?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on December 16, 2020, 10:58:55 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:52:29 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 16, 2020, 10:48:02 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:44:24 AM

I am just showing reasons, for why people would not want to get a vaccine, and why it's a very personal choice that no one should mandate for anyone.

 It is in fact THE VERY OPPOSITE of personal choice.

Can you explain why?

Vaccines work as long the highest possible of number people get them.  That's the whole point behind a vaccination campaign.   You don't take it just for yourself, much like wearing a mask you do it to protect others from being infected by you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 16, 2020, 11:07:11 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:44:24 AM

I really understand what you mean here. And I get it. But then that is not my fault at all. What it does, is it shows how people can't be bothered to look up the information for themselves, especially when it's way easier to have access to that information, and take the time to research. They actually don't want to take the time and will believe what I say without actually looking it up. I find that even more perplexing. And that is what Social Media projects a lot of. People blindly accepting anothers opinion as fact.

Ironic x 2.  After reading the article you cited myself, I see no reason why it's something any casual individual needs ring an alarm bell over.  Unless this was test to the DTF population as to whether it would buy in to your BS statement, I see no reason why you (assuming you read the article) actually felt the need to 'promote' the idea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 16, 2020, 11:27:51 AM

Experiencing a really weird feeling today....best way to describe it is it feels like gravity has increased by two or three times on my body. Feels like I'm being pulled down when I move. It's weird. No issues breathing, little stuffy....but definitely feeling more tired than I have during all this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on December 16, 2020, 12:31:45 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 16, 2020, 11:27:51 AM

No issues breathing, little stuffy....but definitely feeling more tired than I have during all this.

This is a fairly common symptom, from what I've understood. Let's just hope you won't be among the unlucky ones who will suffer from post-infection symptoms for months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 01:09:13 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 16, 2020, 11:27:51 AM

Experiencing a really weird feeling today....best way to describe it is it feels like gravity has increased by two or three times on my body. Feels like I'm being pulled down when I move. It's weird. No issues breathing, little stuffy....but definitely feeling more tired than I have during all this.

If you can, get plenty of rest. No need to exhaust yourself more if you don't need to. And don't forget the hydration. Humidifiers and Purifiers can help clean the air a bit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 01:17:38 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

These Vaccines, don't have the Decades of research. They were just made, in labs, to fight this new strain. They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy. They say watch for it, but shouldn't there be more research to be for sure that Cerebral Palsy isn't or is a concern, instead of saying...Oh just watch out for it.

Also, the recovery might be long, but they still recover. We don't even know for sure what long term effects the Pfizer and other Newly created vaccines can have, as there are no tests done, it's why some are saying "They're testing it on us". It's too much of a rush.

Quote from: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 08:16:18 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

There's a book I've cited more times than I can count:  "How Risky Is It, Really?", by Dave Ropeik (https://www.amazon.com/How-Risky-Really-Fears-Always/dp/0071629696).  In the prologue, he gives a stark example: a woman, we'll call her Susan, arguing passionately to a school board that her daughter's school HAD to be shut down, even though it meant bussing kids to other schools and costing tens of thousands of dollars, all in response to a detection of TCE (a known carcinogen) in the air in the library, at levels WELL below safety standards.   In short, it wasn't a danger.   The author then related this:  "Susan stood there in front of the TV cameras and reporters, flushed with passion, with [daughter] Stephie at her side.  And as she talked about her fear of those trace amounts of TCE, she anxiously puffed away on her tenth cigarette of the night.  And mother and daughter were also taking another big risk:  both were significantly overweight."

Names have been changed to protect the guilty, but this is a true story, according to the author.  We - humans - are NOT GOOD at judging risk magnitude when 'proximity' is also a factor.  It's called risk perception.

Yup, and as a parent, I could just not send my child to school if I thought it was a risk. and if more people decided to do that due to the concern, then the school has no choice but to shut down the school. Did that lady have anyone else support her, or was she the only one that the cameras decided to talk too, and not the other parents?

Anyways, Risk Perception, plays in part with Personal Choice.

Quote

Risk perception refers to how a person perceives the risk associated with a specific activity or event. Just about every activity, from grocery shopping to skydiving, has some type of risk associated with it. Most people weigh the potential for danger against the benefits of the activity and decide whether to go through with it. Risk perception is highly subjective, with each person making their own decision about the potential danger involved in various activities.

https://www.wise-geek.com/what-is-risk-perception.htm

That wasn't what I said. I said safety protocols based on decades of research/experience, designed to minimise risk prior to bringing a pharmaceutical product to the market.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 01:56:05 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 09:23:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 16, 2020, 08:58:07 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 16, 2020, 05:00:58 AM

I wish you all a speedy and uneventful recovery!



And in regards to the whole vaccine debate a while back, I will ask a general question: What do you think poses more of a potential long term health risk? A) A randomly mutated virus that has killed well over a million, has been shown to cause damage all over the body even in asymptomatic cases, and has many people (more than death counts) follow months long recovery trajectories. Or B) a vaccine that has followed all the required safety protocols and testing procedures (safety protocols based on decades of research)? I would also like to add that "naturally" obtained immunity is often less effective/more shortlived than a vaccine due to a variety of reasons.

These Vaccines, don't have the Decades of research. They were just made, in labs, to fight this new strain. They are saying to watch for Cerebral Palsy. They say watch for it, but shouldn't there be more research to be for sure that Cerebral Palsy isn't or is a concern, instead of saying...Oh just watch out for it.

Who is "they"?

Here, I'll look it up for you...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/cdc-monitors-for-bells-palsy-among-pfizer-vaccine-recipients-sees-no-causal-relationship.html

Quote

U.S. officials plan to continue watching for any adverse reactions to Pfizer’s vaccine in the health-care workers and nursing home residents who receive it, Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, said during a meeting of the Food and Drug Administration Thursday.

Small point:  Bell's Palsy and Cerebral Palsy are not the same thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 01:59:42 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 16, 2020, 10:58:55 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:52:29 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on December 16, 2020, 10:48:02 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2020, 10:44:24 AM

I am just showing reasons, for why people would not want to get a vaccine, and why it's a very personal choice that no one should mandate for anyone.

 It is in fact THE VERY OPPOSITE of personal choice.

Can you explain why?

Vaccines work as long the highest possible of number people get them.  That's the whole point behind a vaccination campaign.   You don't take it just for yourself, much like wearing a mask you do it to protect others from being infected by you.

It's still a personal choice whether one wants to participate in the campaign. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 16, 2020, 02:01:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 01:56:05 PM

Small point:  Bell's Palsy and Cerebral Palsy are not the same thing.

I'm not sure that's a SMALL point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 02:06:32 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 16, 2020, 02:01:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 16, 2020, 01:56:05 PM

Small point:  Bell's Palsy and Cerebral Palsy are not the same thing.

I'm not sure that's a SMALL point.

(It's not; I was being polite. There are vast differences, not least of which one - Bell's - is almost always temporary, whereas while cerebral palsy won't get worse, but doesn't always get better.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on December 16, 2020, 02:13:58 PM

I'm partial to Tagliatelle Palsy myself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 16, 2020, 02:18:01 PM

I'm all for the so-called "democratization" of information that the Internet has produced, wherein just about anyone with an internet connection can access the same information as anyone else with an internet connection.  I know this kind of access is not consistent across all countries, but for the most part, the civilized would can access a hell of a lot of information.


Unfortunately, the civilized world can also access a lot of misinformation and propaganda posing as legitimate scientific data.  It's a serious problem because it's giving crackpot conspiracy theorists and tin foil hat wearing weirdos a platform to spew out all manner of nonsensical "data" about everything under the sun and the amount of gullible people out there who hear a message that lines up with their worldview and just automatically, almost in a pavlovian response, they just latch on to complete nonsense and spread it to their entire Facebook friends list and if just a few of those friends also spread it, well, you do the math and then look at how popular some of the stupid shit out there has become like QAnon. 

Vast left-wing conspiracy involving pedophilia and child sacrifices upon satanic altars in the....basement of a pizza parlor in Philly.  There are 10's of thousands if not 100's of thousands of people out there who actually believe that (insert politician they don't like here) is involved in raping little kids, trafficking them for sex and then slaughtering them on a satanic altar underneath "Joe's Pizza" or some shit.  I mean, like, what the fuck is wrong with these people? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 16, 2020, 04:09:13 PM

And let's not forget about cyber warfare. There are governments actively trying to manipulate data to promote unrest and sow the seeds of doubt undermining our Democracy. Russian bots. Anytime I see a political poll, I always wonder how much of it been manipulated by some Russian bots or bots from other countries. The human mind is weak. There's an old saying that goes - "if you can get people to believe absurdities, you can get them to commit atrocities".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Just in case anyone is curious about some of these symptoms I've had....yesterday was really strange. Started off with it feeling like gravity was working double time on my body....just pulling me down big time. Was pretty lethargic all day....then around 2pm or so I got this headache that was brutal which lasted all night. Somewhere around 5:30-6:00 I fell asleep hard in bed and woke up with a strange feeling going on. My sinuses felt like it feels when you accidentally take in water when swimming....that feeling...it was burning and just felt like I'd been unexpectedly dunked under water. I got REAL weak....then had a weird sensation throughout my body of just a sinking feeling.....then I started to freak out mentally thinking "holy crap...this is it...I'm going to die right here in bed!!" and proceeded to have a small panic attack  :omg:  This went on for about 20 minutes and I was able to calm myself down and was 'fine' the rest of the night.

Woke up today feeling a ton better. No headaches....feeling a bit stronger....no issues breathing or anything. But man, last night for a few minutes I thought I was literally dying in front of my wife.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 17, 2020, 11:29:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Just in case anyone is curious about some of these symptoms I've had....yesterday was really strange. Started off with it feeling like gravity was working double time on my body....just pulling me down big time. Was pretty lethargic all day....then around 2pm or so I got this headache that was brutal which lasted all night. Somewhere around 5:30-6:00 I fell asleep hard in bed and woke up with a strange feeling going on. My sinuses felt like it feels when you accidentally take in water when swimming....that feeling...it was burning and just felt like I'd been unexpectedly dunked under water. I got REAL weak....then had a weird sensation throughout my body of just a sinking feeling.....then I started to freak out mentally thinking "holy crap...this is it...I'm going to die right here in bed!!" and proceeded to have a small panic attack  :omg:  This went on for about 20 minutes and I was able to calm myself down and was 'fine' the rest of the night.

Woke up today feeling a ton better. No headaches....feeling a bit stronger....no issues breathing or anything. But man, last night for a few minutes I thought I was literally dying in front of my wife.

I was thinking about you this morning. I hope you all get better quickly. Do you mind if I ask the circumstances where you all think you got infected?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:35:09 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 17, 2020, 11:29:51 AM

I was thinking about you this morning. I hope you all get better quickly. Do you mind if I ask the circumstances where you all think you got infected?

I would love to tell you that I knew. We did travel to Nashville two weeks ago for a hockey tournament but we are the only three out of 50 people that went and spent every moment together that have came down with it. So, I don't think that was it.

My wife is a teacher and still sees kids 4 of 5 days a week...and her school is pretty nonchalant about Covid restrictions so we're thinking maybe there? Her school has had multiple covid positive cases with students....but the truth is it's a guessing game.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 17, 2020, 11:37:16 AM

Glad that today you're feeling better! let's hope the worst already happened and that you'll never have that weird ugly feeling again  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on December 17, 2020, 11:38:27 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Just in case anyone is curious about some of these symptoms I've had....yesterday was really strange. Started off with it feeling like gravity was working double time on my body....just pulling me down big time. Was pretty lethargic all day....then around 2pm or so I got this headache that was brutal which lasted all night. Somewhere around 5:30-6:00 I fell asleep hard in bed and woke up with a strange feeling going on. My sinuses felt like it feels when you accidentally take in water when swimming....that feeling...it was burning and just felt like I'd been unexpectedly dunked under water. I got REAL weak....then had a weird sensation throughout my body of just a sinking feeling.....then I started to freak out mentally thinking "holy crap...this is it...I'm going to die right here in bed!!" and proceeded to have a small panic attack  :omg:  This went on for about 20 minutes and I was able to calm myself down and was 'fine' the rest of the night.

Woke up today feeling a ton better. No headaches....feeling a bit stronger....no issues breathing or anything. But man, last night for a few minutes I thought I was literally dying in front of my wife.

Glad you’re feeling better, hopefully you’re through the worst of it.  It brings up the fact that this virus does a mental attack as well as a physical. I know the next time I get sick I’ll be more concerned than I probably should be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 17, 2020, 11:38:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Just in case anyone is curious about some of these symptoms I've had....yesterday was really strange. Started off with it feeling like gravity was working double time on my body....just pulling me down big time. Was pretty lethargic all day....then around 2pm or so I got this headache that was brutal which lasted all night. Somewhere around 5:30-6:00 I fell asleep hard in bed and woke up with a strange feeling going on. My sinuses felt like it feels when you accidentally take in water when swimming....that feeling...it was burning and just felt like I'd been unexpectedly dunked under water. I got REAL weak....then had a weird sensation throughout my body of just a sinking feeling.....then I started to freak out mentally thinking "holy crap...this is it...I'm going to die right here in bed!!" and proceeded to have a small panic attack  :omg:  This went on for about 20 minutes and I was able to calm myself down and was 'fine' the rest of the night.

Woke up today feeling a ton better. No headaches....feeling a bit stronger....no issues breathing or anything. But man, last night for a few minutes I thought I was literally dying in front of my wife.

Yikes.  Glad today is better.  Did you get my text the other day?  I was a bit worried when you didn't respond, but I saw that you posted here since, so that helped.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:40:27 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 17, 2020, 11:38:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Just in case anyone is curious about some of these symptoms I've had....yesterday was really strange. Started off with it feeling like gravity was working double time on my body....just pulling me down big time. Was pretty lethargic all day....then around 2pm or so I got this headache that was brutal which lasted all night. Somewhere around 5:30-6:00 I fell asleep hard in bed and woke up with a strange feeling going on. My sinuses felt like it feels when you accidentally take in water when swimming....that feeling...it was burning and just felt like I'd been unexpectedly dunked under water. I got REAL weak....then had a weird sensation throughout my body of just a sinking feeling.....then I started to freak out mentally thinking "holy crap...this is it...I'm going to die right here in bed!!" and proceeded to have a small panic attack  :omg:  This went on for about 20 minutes and I was able to calm myself down and was 'fine' the rest of the night.

Woke up today feeling a ton better. No headaches....feeling a bit stronger....no issues breathing or anything. But man, last night for a few minutes I thought I was literally dying in front of my wife.

Yikes.  Glad today is better.  Did you get my text the other day?  I was a bit worried when you didn't respond, but I saw that you posted here since, so that helped.

I did not but it's no fault of your own....I had to switch phone numbers when I changed jobs. I appreciate the well wishes I've received from many of the DTF members....this community is great

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 17, 2020, 11:48:40 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:40:27 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 17, 2020, 11:38:51 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Just in case anyone is curious about some of these symptoms I've had....yesterday was really strange. Started off with it feeling like gravity was working double time on my body....just pulling me down big time. Was pretty lethargic all day....then around 2pm or so I got this headache that was brutal which lasted all night. Somewhere around 5:30-6:00 I fell asleep hard in bed and woke up with a strange feeling going on. My sinuses felt like it feels when you accidentally take in water when swimming....that feeling...it was burning and just felt like I'd been unexpectedly dunked under water. I got REAL weak....then had a weird sensation throughout my body of just a sinking feeling.....then I started to freak out mentally thinking "holy crap...this is it...I'm going to die right here in bed!!" and proceeded to have a small panic attack  :omg:  This went on for about 20 minutes and I was able to calm myself down and was 'fine' the rest of the night.

Woke up today feeling a ton better. No headaches....feeling a bit stronger....no issues breathing or anything. But man, last night for a few minutes I thought I was literally dying in front of my wife.

Yikes.  Glad today is better.  Did you get my text the other day?  I was a bit worried when you didn't respond, but I saw that you posted here since, so that helped.

I did not but it's no fault of your own....I had to switch phone numbers when I changed jobs. I appreciate the well wishes I've received from many of the DTF members....this community is great

Oh!  :lolpalm:  Well, please know that I sent my well wishes.  ...and if you need a laugh and aren't afraid to laugh at dark humor, ponder the thought that some random person may now think they have Covid due to my text.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 17, 2020, 11:49:52 AM

I recall Chris Cuomo saying he had some mental breakdowns at night when he got sick and was sharing his symtpoms on air.  Glad you are feeling better today, but keep resting my friend, sometimes they say these symptoms come and go.  Hopefully they've gone for good, but keep taking care of yourself with rest and water. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 17, 2020, 12:00:41 PM

Gary, it's scary to read because I look at you as very fit. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 12:10:32 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 17, 2020, 12:00:41 PM

Gary, it's scary to read because I look at you as very fit.

For my age I consider myself fairly fit as well. Play hockey a couple times a week and run 2-3 days a week. But I don't think this virus really gives a  :censored about that  :lol  I will say that as of yet I haven't had any issues breathing. I had a tight chest one night a few nights ago and then my little panic attack was a nice throw back to my mid 20's when I had three a week....it's just such a weird thing

Quote from: cramx3 on December 17, 2020, 11:49:52 AM

sometimes they say these symptoms come and go.

Tuesday I would have sworn I was past it and in the clear....I felt fine. Then yesterday was a kick in the nuts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 12:11:36 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on December 17, 2020, 11:48:40 AM

Oh!  :lolpalm:  Well, please know that I sent my well wishes.  ...and if you need a laugh and aren't afraid to laugh at dark humor, ponder the thought that some random person may now think they have Covid due to my text.  :lol

 :lol   That's funny but then again it's not. Poor person  :lol 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 17, 2020, 12:44:03 PM

I can just see the poor guy going to his wife going:

"Honey, I have some REALLY bad news!  I have Covid!"  :panicattack:

"...and that's not the worst of it.  Apparently, I'm also the victim of identity theft, and they changed my name to Gary!" :panicattack: :panicattack: :panicattack:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 17, 2020, 03:15:01 PM

Moderna vaccine gets a :tup from the fda panel of experts. Figure we'll have two rolling by Monday.



Gary, please take care man, that's some scary shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on December 17, 2020, 03:17:24 PM

Yes please take care. I haven't been checking this thread so I missed your update. I hope you continue to improve.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on December 17, 2020, 03:21:47 PM

That is definitely a sobering story, Gary. Glad you are feeling better today! Hopefully, yesterday was the worst and the upswing is in full swing.  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 03:41:50 PM

I appreciate it fellas....I really do. As an update....my oldest two sons tests just came back positive as well....which is no surprise. I'd have been more surprised if they weren't. They're asymptomatic but we got them tested once we popped positive. The kids are bouncing around like it's nothing. Only my wife and I are really experiencing any noticeable symptoms....so I'm glad they're seemingly doing well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on December 17, 2020, 04:14:45 PM

Thankfully, kids almost always seem to either be asymptomatic or have VERY mild symptoms. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on December 17, 2020, 04:20:56 PM

I've heard multiple people say they felt fine until they tested positive for Covid and then their anxiety about it made things way worse. My brother-in-law's 90+ year old grandma died of Covid a few months ago. She was fine until she tested positive and then basically became a giant anxiety ridden mess. They're convinced she died of the panic that overtook her rather than the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 17, 2020, 05:22:26 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 03:41:50 PM

I appreciate it fellas....I really do. As an update....my oldest two sons tests just came back positive as well....which is no surprise. I'd have been more surprised if they weren't. They're asymptomatic but we got them tested once we popped positive. The kids are bouncing around like it's nothing. Only my wife and I are really experiencing any noticeable symptoms....so I'm glad they're seemingly doing well.

I’m no scientist, but have you considered blaming Stadler?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 17, 2020, 05:29:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on December 17, 2020, 05:22:26 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 03:41:50 PM

I appreciate it fellas....I really do. As an update....my oldest two sons tests just came back positive as well....which is no surprise. I'd have been more surprised if they weren't. They're asymptomatic but we got them tested once we popped positive. The kids are bouncing around like it's nothing. Only my wife and I are really experiencing any noticeable symptoms....so I'm glad they're seemingly doing well.

I’m no scientist, but have you considered blaming Stadler?

I know I have!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 17, 2020, 06:10:46 PM

Hey guys!  What's new?

 ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 17, 2020, 06:17:08 PM

SHHHH.  He's here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 17, 2020, 06:23:33 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 17, 2020, 06:17:08 PM

SHHHH.  He's here.

MASKS ON EVERYONE!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 17, 2020, 07:49:49 PM

My employer sent out an email last week saying that all employees could get a home test kit sent to them, no charge.  The employee is free, and you can get additional kits for family members for $120 each.  Pretty steep for the additional kits, especially since around here you can go to a CVS and get it done for free.  But this is the at-home kit, so I guess if you'd really prefer to stay home, it's an option.

I figured WTF and ordered a kit the other day.  It came today.  As it happens, I have my annual physical tomorrow with my regular MD, so I'll probably do the test after that.  I had that fever last weekend which I'm pretty sure was not Covid-19 -- it's already in the past -- but it doesn't hurt to be sure.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 17, 2020, 08:06:23 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 17, 2020, 07:49:49 PM

I figured WTF and ordered a kit the other day.  It came today.  As it happens, I have my annual physical tomorrow with my regular MD, so I'll probably do the test after that.  I had that fever last weekend which I'm pretty sure was not Covid-19 -- it's already in the past -- but it doesn't hurt to be sure.

You should just get the test through your Doctor, and give Mrs O your work test.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 17, 2020, 08:51:59 PM

They track them.  The one I ordered already has my name and info on it, so all I have to do is send it in.  I already have a tracking number.  They were pretty specific about the free one being for the employees.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 17, 2020, 08:53:07 PM

Gotcha!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 17, 2020, 08:56:55 PM

I'm still basically just doing it because it's free and convenient.  I have no reason to suspect I even have it, but I guess there's a little peace of mind to be had, at the cost of a nasal swab and a trip to FedEx.  I'm kinda wondering how that's gonna work, since it's self-administered.  But I've also heard that there are different kinds, including one that doesn't go super-deep.  So I'll see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on December 18, 2020, 12:36:19 AM

Guess I'm joining the club guys, test results returned positive. Feeling mostly alright but perpetually tired. Occasionally there are mild headaches too. Temperature was alright for the last two days. I hope it doesn't get worse.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 17, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Just in case anyone is curious about some of these symptoms I've had....yesterday was really strange. Started off with it feeling like gravity was working double time on my body....just pulling me down big time. Was pretty lethargic all day....then around 2pm or so I got this headache that was brutal which lasted all night. Somewhere around 5:30-6:00 I fell asleep hard in bed and woke up with a strange feeling going on. My sinuses felt like it feels when you accidentally take in water when swimming....that feeling...it was burning and just felt like I'd been unexpectedly dunked under water. I got REAL weak....then had a weird sensation throughout my body of just a sinking feeling.....then I started to freak out mentally thinking "holy crap...this is it...I'm going to die right here in bed!!" and proceeded to have a small panic attack  :omg:  This went on for about 20 minutes and I was able to calm myself down and was 'fine' the rest of the night.

Woke up today feeling a ton better. No headaches....feeling a bit stronger....no issues breathing or anything. But man, last night for a few minutes I thought I was literally dying in front of my wife.

Yeah, this doesn't sound good at all. Hopefully it was the worst episode and you'll get better from here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 18, 2020, 01:12:31 AM

Get well soon Evermind!  :tup so far it's promising that you're "just" tired...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on December 18, 2020, 02:48:15 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 18, 2020, 01:12:31 AM

Get well soon Evermind!  :tup so far it's promising that you're "just" tired...

It's definitely promising so far! Although right now I decided to made coffee and realized I couldn't smell freshly ground coffee which is such a weird sensation :lol So I guess more symptoms may come as it goes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 18, 2020, 05:44:38 AM

Quote from: Evermind on December 18, 2020, 02:48:15 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 18, 2020, 01:12:31 AM

Get well soon Evermind!  :tup so far it's promising that you're "just" tired...

It's definitely promising so far! Although right now I decided to made coffee and realized I couldn't smell freshly ground coffee which is such a weird sensation :lol So I guess more symptoms may come as it goes.

Fuck man ... this blows - the whole thing, not just the sense of smell.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 18, 2020, 08:03:28 AM

Quote from: Evermind on December 18, 2020, 02:48:15 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 18, 2020, 01:12:31 AM

Get well soon Evermind!  :tup so far it's promising that you're "just" tired...

It's definitely promising so far! Although right now I decided to made coffee and realized I couldn't smell freshly ground coffee which is such a weird sensation :lol So I guess more symptoms may come as it goes.

I lost my smell/taste for two solid days....third day I could tell it was coming back, then the fourth day it was restored. It is a really weird sensation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 18, 2020, 09:13:22 AM

Wow, numbers.  I hope for the best for you guys.  I know three people personally who've had it, all three have survived, although two were hospitalized for a while.  The first had relatively minor symptoms (minor for Covid, that is) much as you've described.  Hopefully this is as far as it goes for you.


I just did my home test.  It came with a little foam swab with about a three-inch handle.  The instructions specifically said that you don't have to place it very far into your nostril; only until the foam head is no longer visible.  Run it around the inside of your nostril at least three times, then repeat with the other nostril.  Use the same end (only one end has a swab anyway), so the only kinda gross part was taking the "dirty" swab out of one nostril and going into the other, but I don't even have a runny nose right now, so it's not like it was gooey or anything.  In fact, since things are dry in there, I was a little concerned about it not picking up enough sample material, so I made sure to run it around inside a few extra times and kinda spin the handle as it went to maximize how much it picked up.

Then drop it into the little tube (supplied), into the biohazard bag (supplied), back into the box it all came in, and into the FedEx Express Biohazard package (supplied).  Quick and painless.  I'll drop it off at FedEx today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 18, 2020, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 18, 2020, 09:13:22 AM

gooey

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 18, 2020, 09:31:34 AM

This seems a bit weird to me, but it's actually good news.  https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/one-thing-covid-vaccine-thats-111202197.html (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/one-thing-covid-vaccine-thats-111202197.html)

Quote

The Pfizer vaccine was first rolled out for release on Dec. 13, shipping in vials that supposedly contain five doses apiece. But doctors administering the shots soon realized that most vials were providing much more than advertised, allowing for six or even seven doses from one vial.

I was wondering if this is normal, apparently it is:

Quote

Even though the COVID-19 vaccine is a precious commodity at this point, it's not unheard of for vials of such products to ship a little overfilled. Pharmaceutical companies typically overfill vials in anticipation of spills and circumstantial waste to keep the products usable to their minimum advertised dosage.

it's also safe and recommended to use the extra doses, so it seems we might actually have more supply than originally noted as long as they don't go wasted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 18, 2020, 09:44:50 AM

I heard the oveefilling was also to account for the dead space in the needle after the shot was administered.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on December 18, 2020, 10:13:32 AM

Good to hear you guys are doing (relatively) well! I didn't do too well earlier this year, but now more than half a year later I feel good. In fact, I got a health test recently and my condition is apparently very good (heartrate, bloodpressure, saturation, lung capacity, strength etc.). 

For me after a few months I randomly got a weird sense of breathlessness, but a lung scan showed completely normal lungs and regular tests were good as well.  The lung specialist told me she had many similar cases and the exact reason is unknown (but this was back in the summer). But that has been gone for a while now too, and my lungs function greatly according to all tests thrown at them. I was also quite tired for a long time, especially when the "lockdown" ended and when I was active for full days again. But that has dissapeared as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 18, 2020, 10:19:02 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 18, 2020, 09:31:34 AM

This seems a bit weird to me, but it's actually good news.  https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/one-thing-covid-vaccine-thats-111202197.html (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/one-thing-covid-vaccine-thats-111202197.html)

Quote

The Pfizer vaccine was first rolled out for release on Dec. 13, shipping in vials that supposedly contain five doses apiece. But doctors administering the shots soon realized that most vials were providing much more than advertised, allowing for six or even seven doses from one vial.

I was wondering if this is normal, apparently it is:

Quote

Even though the COVID-19 vaccine is a precious commodity at this point, it's not unheard of for vials of such products to ship a little overfilled. Pharmaceutical companies typically overfill vials in anticipation of spills and circumstantial waste to keep the products usable to their minimum advertised dosage.

it's also safe and recommended to use the extra doses, so it seems we might actually have more supply than originally noted as long as they don't go wasted.

I think there's hanky panky going on.  This smacks of adding water to the well vodka bottle at the end of the night.   :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 18, 2020, 11:10:09 AM

I don't think that would be hanky panky.  I think if you check regulations, that would fall under the category of shenanigans, or possibly flim-flam (depending upon latitude/longitude, as usual).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 18, 2020, 11:47:33 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 18, 2020, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 18, 2020, 09:13:22 AM

gooey

Quiet please... wordsmith at work.


As it turns out, I'm an idiot after all.  I had that fever last weekend, and because of that (and being honest and telling the doctor's office), I couldn't have my physical today.  I'm not a fan of the annual physical, so "disappointed" isn't quite the word, but I was kinda looking forward to getting it over with.  But I get there, and of course there's a big sign with COVID-19 NOTICE in big red letters, and if you've had any of these symptoms in the last 14 days, you must let them know.  They have to ask, so I told her I had a fever last weekend, but it was gone in a few days.  Have I have a Covid test?  Yes, actually just this morning.  Since the results aren't back yet (obviously), they have to reschedule the appointment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 18, 2020, 12:52:07 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 18, 2020, 11:10:09 AM

I don't think that would be hanky panky.  I think if you check regulations, that would fall under the category of shenanigans, or possibly flim-flam (depending upon latitude/longitude, as usual).

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 18, 2020, 05:31:02 PM

NJ Governor announced today that 6 mega sites for vaccinations will open in January across the state, essentially lots of big convention hall places will turn into vaccine spots.  Pretty cool if you ask me.  He's also saying they expect to have everything in place as they continue to roll out the phases of vaccinations so that when the time comes, they will be prepared to give them to everyone who wants one when its your phase that is ready to receive them.  I've really liked the way he's handled this in the state.  He was a bit strict at times, but he probably needed to be and in this latest wave has been pretty good at trying to keep everything open but also keep the spread low, now it's time to get the vaccines rolling and it seems they've got a plan and schedule to do so. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 19, 2020, 07:10:14 AM

So COVID is creeping in all around me.   Grrrr.   

My kid got it while she was at school in October, was asymptomatic, and tested negative before she ever came home.  So that was stressful, but not a threat.  But now... my wife's mom's husband tested positive and my wife's ex's mom just tested positive.  Both live in my town, and within a few miles.  Thankfully my wife's mom's husband is a tool, so we have not been in any contact with him for months, but mom is very high risk, so there's concern there.  The wife's ex's mom (who is also very high risk) is a problem, because my stepson - who is eleven - goes back and forth between the houses.  I'm not a paranoid guy, but I've taken my temperature like 60 times since yesterday, and this morning I woke up not short of breath but with a little scratch in the back of my throat, and while it's 99% because the dog slept right next to me last night, I'm pretty sure I'm going to the airport today to get a test.  The upshot (I know this is TMI) but I've been married to my wife for five and a half years, and I've only been in the same room with her ex once, and only for about five minutes and no words were spoken.  I've literally never talked to him in my life.... until Thursday. I'm shoveling snow, and he came over to pick up his son for visitation, and I was three feet from his truck.  It was awkward just standing there not saying anything so he rolled down his window and we had a short, benign chat about the snow.  I've been doing math in my head for about 12 hours:  "How many COVID molecules can move five feet in 25 degree weather over three minutes?"  :) :) :)

WTF.  I made it 10 months of hibernating in my house like a hermit, and I feel like Johnny COVID is standing at my door looking at me with lust.    Doesn't really change my opinion on what we should have done, it's just reality, but still. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on December 19, 2020, 08:49:09 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 18, 2020, 05:31:02 PM

NJ Governor announced today that 6 mega sites for vaccinations will open in January across the state, essentially lots of big convention hall places will turn into vaccine spots.  Pretty cool if you ask me.  He's also saying they expect to have everything in place as they continue to roll out the phases of vaccinations so that when the time comes, they will be prepared to give them to everyone who wants one when its your phase that is ready to receive them.  I've really liked the way he's handled this in the state.  He was a bit strict at times, but he probably needed to be and in this latest wave has been pretty good at trying to keep everything open but also keep the spread low, now it's time to get the vaccines rolling and it seems they've got a plan and schedule to do so.

Our county set up an online vaccination registration portal.  Apparently over 50,000 people are already registered an in line ahead of us.  You put in your info and any health conditions and the portal will place you in the queue based on your answers.  My father in law will skip ahead of people because he's immuno-compromised and we'll be farther behind on the list.   It will give you an appointment time though.

I guess it will operate like the drive through testing sites - stay in your car and get a shot in the arm.  They are able to test between 5,000 and 10,000 people a day at those sites, so I'd imagine once they start operating and have enough doses, they'll get through the registration list in a matter of weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 19, 2020, 09:10:06 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 19, 2020, 07:10:14 AM

WTF.  I made it 10 months of hibernating in my house like a hermit, and I feel like Johnny COVID is standing at my door looking at me with lust.    Doesn't really change my opinion on what we should have done, it's just reality, but still.

That's just another example of how we're all in this together and how everyone must do their part (just like you did) without being careless - our actions fall back upon others, it's something too many people still haven't understood.

Best of wishes for having hopefully been the good and right distance away from your wife's ex!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 19, 2020, 12:43:05 PM

Just tested negative, now I quarantine so I dont get exposed before my flight to my parents on Tuesday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 19, 2020, 12:45:53 PM

:tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 19, 2020, 12:53:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 19, 2020, 12:43:05 PM

Just tested negative, now I quarantine so I dont get exposed before my flight to my parents on Tuesday.

Awesome! Hope you have a great time with your family!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 19, 2020, 01:13:34 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 19, 2020, 12:53:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 19, 2020, 12:43:05 PM

Just tested negative, now I quarantine so I dont get exposed before my flight to my parents on Tuesday.

Awesome! Hope you have a great time with your family!

How ya feeling man?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 19, 2020, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 19, 2020, 01:13:34 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 19, 2020, 12:53:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 19, 2020, 12:43:05 PM

Just tested negative, now I quarantine so I dont get exposed before my flight to my parents on Tuesday.

Awesome! Hope you have a great time with your family!

How ya feeling man?

Today is the third day in a row of no real symptoms. Only small lingering thing is a bit of sinus congestion but it’s light and it comes and goes. Feel 1000x better than I did at the beginning of last week. Same for my wife.....she’s still a little tired but that’s the only lingering symptom. Kiddos have no symptoms either right now. So, I’m hopeful we’ve all turned a corner and we’re lucky with only having mild cases.

Thanks for asking  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on December 19, 2020, 01:26:15 PM

That is great to hear, Gary.  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 19, 2020, 02:04:49 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 19, 2020, 09:10:06 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 19, 2020, 07:10:14 AM

WTF.  I made it 10 months of hibernating in my house like a hermit, and I feel like Johnny COVID is standing at my door looking at me with lust.    Doesn't really change my opinion on what we should have done, it's just reality, but still.

That's just another example of how we're all in this together and how everyone must do their part (just like you did) without being careless - our actions fall back upon others, it's something too many people still haven't understood.

Best of wishes for having hopefully been the good and right distance away from your wife's ex!  :tup

Tested today for peace of mind and for the benefit of the rest of the fam.    Now I wait to hear... think I'll make a fire, pour a drink and watch some football.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 19, 2020, 06:50:59 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on December 19, 2020, 01:26:15 PM

That is great to hear, Gary.  :tup :tup

:tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 19, 2020, 07:56:15 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 19, 2020, 06:50:59 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on December 19, 2020, 01:26:15 PM

That is great to hear, Gary.  :tup :tup

:tup :tup

^^^all of this

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on December 19, 2020, 09:21:54 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 19, 2020, 12:53:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 19, 2020, 12:43:05 PM

Just tested negative, now I quarantine so I dont get exposed before my flight to my parents on Tuesday.

Awesome! Hope you have a great time with your family!

Agreed, have a great time!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on December 20, 2020, 02:19:49 PM

As some of you may already know, a new mutation of the virus was found in the UK and it has become dominant in large parts of the country. A Finnish professor of virology tentatively assessed that it's a more distinctive split because the mutation has resulted in several changes to it's genome and proteins. However, he also says the developed vaccines will likely be effective against it.

The new mutation seems to be more contagious than previous forms, which has prompted more lockdowns in the UK and flight restrictions by some EU countries. It doesn't seem to cause more dangerous symptoms though.

EDIT: Finland is likely to join the list of countries to ban incoming UK flights.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 20, 2020, 02:54:01 PM

Just what we needed - like the last days of 2019 were a preview of 2020 with the first news of the virus, is this the cliffhanger that will lure us back for the 2021 season?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on December 20, 2020, 02:54:33 PM

Quote from: Luoto on December 20, 2020, 02:19:49 PM

As some of you may already know, a new mutation of the virus was found in the UK and it has become dominant in large parts of the country. A Finnish professor of virology tentatively assessed that it's a more distinctive split because the mutation has resulted in several changes to it's genome and proteins. However, he also says the developed vaccines will likely be effective against it.

The new mutation seems to be more contagious than previous forms, which has prompted more lockdowns in the UK and flight restrictions by some EU countries. It doesn't seem to cause more dangerous symptoms though.

EDIT: Finland is likely to join the list of countries to ban incoming UK flights.

Yes, in The Netherlands we have recently entered the most strict lockdown since the beginning of the entire covid crisis, but due to the new UK variant that is potentially 70% more contagious (as per the last numbers I read), we will possibly get even tighter rules. UK travel has been banned as far as I know, both ways. Unfortunately, we have already had a case with the UK-variant, but as of now there aren't any other known cases.

It fucking sucks, but at least there is no evidence that the vaccines won't work and that it is deadlier or something awful like that. But quicker and larger scale spread is enough for disaster at the current state of most countries, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 20, 2020, 06:26:52 PM

The CDC has released their next wave of vaccine recipients, the over 75, and more frontline essential workers like first responders, teachers and grocery store employees. Seems that part time job I took at Whole Foods is going to pay off in more ways than one. :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 20, 2020, 07:34:20 PM

My understanding is the UK mutation is not going to be an issue for vaccines.  Could be wrong of course and things could change.  However, right now, I'm not really worried about any mutations with regards to the vaccine in the near term.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 20, 2020, 07:51:46 PM

Canada will be banning travel to/from the UK as of midnight. Shit just keeps getting shittier.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 20, 2020, 07:55:03 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 20, 2020, 06:26:52 PM

The CDC has released their next wave of vaccine recipients, the over 75...

Nice to know Stadler and Kingshmegland will be taken care of.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 07:04:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 20, 2020, 07:55:03 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 20, 2020, 06:26:52 PM

The CDC has released their next wave of vaccine recipients, the over 75...

Nice to know Stadler and Kingshmegland will be taken care of.

I am NOT a proud man.  I will take it!     :)

(Though I got my results from the weekend's test:  Negative, thank goodness.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 21, 2020, 07:10:28 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 20, 2020, 07:55:03 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 20, 2020, 06:26:52 PM

The CDC has released their next wave of vaccine recipients, the over 75...

Nice to know Stadler and Kingshmegland will be taken care of.

Tim, Even though I am a little bit older then you, I bet most think you are older.  We should run a poll.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on December 21, 2020, 07:10:37 AM

Quote from: lonestar on December 20, 2020, 06:26:52 PM

The CDC has released their next wave of vaccine recipients, the over 75, and more frontline essential workers like first responders, teachers and grocery store employees. Seems that part time job I took at Whole Foods is going to pay off in more ways than one. :tup

I'm feeling a little guilty over a decision I might be faced with. I don't know if grocery store workers are going to get any kind of priority in my state. I work in a grocery store kitchen one day a week, in an isolated prep room in the basement. That may get me the option to get a vaccine earlier than others, possibly months before my primary job would. It feels kind of dickish on my part if I were to take advantage. I'm probably still going to do it either way. I'll chalk it up to the universe throwing me a bone, and I don't want me or my parents to die from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 07:18:20 AM

Quote from: Chino on December 21, 2020, 07:10:37 AM

Quote from: lonestar on December 20, 2020, 06:26:52 PM

The CDC has released their next wave of vaccine recipients, the over 75, and more frontline essential workers like first responders, teachers and grocery store employees. Seems that part time job I took at Whole Foods is going to pay off in more ways than one. :tup

I'm feeling a little guilty over a decision I might be faced with. I don't know if grocery store workers are going to get any kind of priority in my state. I work in a grocery store kitchen one day a week, in an isolated prep room in the basement. That may get me the option to get a vaccine earlier than others, possibly months before my primary job would. It feels kind of dickish on my part if I were to take advantage. I'm probably still going to do it either way. I'll chalk it up to the universe throwing me a bone, and I don't want me or my parents to die from it.

Well, Chino, if the narrative from the rest of this (and other) threads are correct, that we all have to do our part and make our sacrifices, it works the other way, too.   Vaccines get us to "herd immunity" quicker; that's the idea.   If you have the opportunity, you should take it (provided you're comfortable with) to do your part in your sub-community to increase the immunity rate (that's not what they call it, but I'm blanking on the term).   IMO, you should not feel guilty.   Decency says you don't push some old guy out of the way to get it, but if offered, I think there's probably more harm in NOT taking it than taking it, if only to be another brick in the wall.   Unless the people at your store are your friend group, which "one day a week" it doesn't sound like it, the analytics says you should get it and bring that immunity back to your friend group.

EDIT:  MirrorMask said what I was trying to say but WAY better:  not everyone is in an equivalent situation.   Meaning, you're moving between at least two communities; you getting the vaccine breaks that "connection" so to speak, so you would be reducing - even if minutely - the chances of spread.  An elderly person, who is confined to a nursing home and is not mobile, or someone like me, who hides in his basement and makes fun of TAC over the internet, maybe not as much.   This is partly why the front line people get it first; they are a nexus between multiple sub-communities and we're trying to break those connections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 21, 2020, 07:25:23 AM

I agree with Stadler. You can get the vaccine? go for it.

Remember the domino effect, someone gets the virus from someone who got it from someone who got it from someone else. If you are vaccinated, you won't infect someone else who won't infect someone else who won't infect someone else who won't infect someone's grandma or grandpa or ill family member who WILL DIE. Protect yourself and your loved ones, it's not selfish, it's as you said the universe throwing you a bone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 21, 2020, 07:47:12 AM

Heaven help me ... Stadler is right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 07:48:52 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 21, 2020, 07:47:12 AM

Heaven help me ... Stadler is right.

You and Adami.   SMH.

 ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 21, 2020, 07:53:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 07:48:52 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 21, 2020, 07:47:12 AM

Heaven help me ... Stadler is right.

You and Adami.   SMH.

 ;D

Consider it an early Christmas gift.   :biggrin: :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 08:08:37 AM

My test results were negative.  It's definitely an "overall positive" thing for me, since I don't have to deal with quarrantining myself and my whole family, especially since I still have some Christmas shopping to do.  My fever started on Dec 11, so I would've theoretically had to quarrantine through Dec 25.

But there's still a small part of my psyche that would have found it a relief to know I had it, but other than a low-grade fever, was asymptomatic.  I don't have to worry about getting it because I already had it, and beat it.  That would've been okay too, you know?  But I realize that that's a rather twisted way to look at it.  It's Monday morning and I haven't had coffee yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on December 21, 2020, 08:16:37 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 08:08:37 AM

My test results were negative.  It's definitely an "overall positive" thing for me, since I don't have to deal with quarrantining myself and my whole family, especially since I still have some Christmas shopping to do.  My fever started on Dec 11, so I would've theoretically had to quarrantine through Dec 25.

But there's still a small part of my psyche that would have found it a relief to know I had it, but other than a low-grade fever, was asymptomatic.  I don't have to worry about getting it because I already had it, and beat it.  That would've been okay too, you know?  But I realize that that's a rather twisted way to look at it.  It's Monday morning and I haven't had coffee yet.

I felt the same way a couple months ago when I got tested. I had relatively minor cold like symptoms and actually would have liked it to have been Covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 21, 2020, 08:23:09 AM

It's a new disease too young to see if there will be side effects later in life. And let's not forget that, however rare is, you CAN get it AGAIN.

I mean, with the current level of information we have now, I can see your points about almost wishing of having gotten it in an asymptomatic way, but.... careful what you wish, that's all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 21, 2020, 08:26:56 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 08:08:37 AM

My test results were negative.  It's definitely an "overall positive" thing for me, since I don't have to deal with quarrantining myself and my whole family, especially since I still have some Christmas shopping to do.  My fever started on Dec 11, so I would've theoretically had to quarrantine through Dec 25.

But there's still a small part of my psyche that would have found it a relief to know I had it, but other than a low-grade fever, was asymptomatic.  I don't have to worry about getting it because I already had it, and beat it.  That would've been okay too, you know?  But I realize that that's a rather twisted way to look at it.  It's Monday morning and I haven't had coffee yet.

Good news that you don't have it  :tup

I know what you're saying about the second half of your statement. When we found out our other two boys had it.....of course we were bummed but at the same time....they were (and have remained) asymptomatic, so we looked at it like a 'good' thing in the aspect of at least they've gotten it now and will have that little buffer window of immunity. Especially with their school districts decision to start having kids do classes in person 4 days a week....it was going to just be a matter of time until they popped positive from being exposed at school.

Thankfully they've all three remained asymptomatic and have gotten through this pretty well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 21, 2020, 09:25:52 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 21, 2020, 07:25:23 AM

I agree with Stadler. You can get the vaccine? go for it.

Remember the domino effect, someone gets the virus from someone who got it from someone who got it from someone else. If you are vaccinated, you won't infect someone else who won't infect someone else who won't infect someone else who won't infect someone's grandma or grandpa or ill family member who WILL DIE. Protect yourself and your loved ones, it's not selfish, it's as you said the universe throwing you a bone.

My understanding is that it is still unknown if a vaccinated person can transmit the virus .  It may be the case that this doesn't quite work like that.  But we don't know, maybe it will protect against transmission as well.

Also, if you have access to get the vaccine sooner than later, do it and don't feel guilty.  While there is a shortage right now, everyone, soon enough, will get the opportunity so just get it and that's one person closer to ending this pandemic.  What's comforting to know, another forum I frequent (for PSU sports) has a thread for saying if you got the vaccine and a bunch of people are already getting it including my best friend's father just got it (he's a Dr).  This is legit rolling out here in the US.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2020, 10:38:33 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 08:08:37 AM

But there's still a small part of my psyche that would have found it a relief to know I had it, but other than a low-grade fever, was asymptomatic.  I don't have to worry about getting it because I already had it, and beat it.  That would've been okay too, you know?  But I realize that that's a rather twisted way to look at it.  It's Monday morning and I haven't had coffee yet.

Well, you're not immune from getting it if you have it once.  You can get it twice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 21, 2020, 11:01:45 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2020, 10:38:33 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 08:08:37 AM

But there's still a small part of my psyche that would have found it a relief to know I had it, but other than a low-grade fever, was asymptomatic.  I don't have to worry about getting it because I already had it, and beat it.  That would've been okay too, you know?  But I realize that that's a rather twisted way to look at it.  It's Monday morning and I haven't had coffee yet.

Well, you're not immune from getting it if you have it once.  You can get it twice.

I am sure there are people whom are immune. Although, they may be rare, or uncommon. Just like any other sickness, some people are immune and some succumb to it. It's all based on our Immune System. And each of our Immunities are different based on the many aspects and ways we live our life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2020, 11:04:51 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 21, 2020, 11:01:45 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2020, 10:38:33 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 08:08:37 AM

But there's still a small part of my psyche that would have found it a relief to know I had it, but other than a low-grade fever, was asymptomatic.  I don't have to worry about getting it because I already had it, and beat it.  That would've been okay too, you know?  But I realize that that's a rather twisted way to look at it.  It's Monday morning and I haven't had coffee yet.

Well, you're not immune from getting it if you have it once.  You can get it twice.

I am sure there are people whom are immune. Although, they may be rare, or uncommon. Just like any other sickness, some people are immune and some succumb to it. It's all based on our Immune System. And each of our Immunities are different based on the many aspects and ways we live our life.

OK, but I just meant that getting it once doesn't make you immune from getting it again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 11:31:01 AM

Our state (Connecticut) is giving you 90 days of immunity.  So to speak.  Meaning, if you've had it, if you can show a positive test of more than 14 days ago but less than 90 days ago, you don't have to follow the same protocols with respect to travel restrictions. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 21, 2020, 11:59:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 11:31:01 AM

Our state (Connecticut) is giving you 90 days of immunity.  So to speak.  Meaning, if you've had it, if you can show a positive test of more than 14 days ago but less than 90 days ago, you don't have to follow the same protocols with respect to travel restrictions.

 :corn :corn

I don't get it. So you have to show a positive test result, and prove you were sick, and can be considered immune, because you caught it? or am I just way off base?

Edit: I think I get it...it's showing a test that is between about 2 weeks ago and no more than about 3 months old?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 12:10:54 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 21, 2020, 11:59:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 11:31:01 AM

Our state (Connecticut) is giving you 90 days of immunity.  So to speak.  Meaning, if you've had it, if you can show a positive test of more than 14 days ago but less than 90 days ago, you don't have to follow the same protocols with respect to travel restrictions.

 :corn :corn

I don't get it. So you have to show a positive test result, and prove you were sick, and can be considered immune, because you caught it? or am I just way off base?

Edit: I think I get it...it's showing a test that is between about 2 weeks ago and no more than about 3 months old?

So, my kid tested positive in October.  Let's say it's the 15th (doesn't matter, but still).  She flew home for T-Giving (for good) and all she had to do was send her positive test results to the State Board of Health or whatever it's called, and she didn't have to "test in" or anything like that.  If the positive results were more than 90 days prior to her date of travel, that would not have been sufficient; she would have had to test like everyone else (I think that rule is negative test within 72 hours of flying, or any time after arrival, but a quarantine until your test results came back negative; don't rely on that as I may not have that exactly correct).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 21, 2020, 12:41:09 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 12:10:54 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 21, 2020, 11:59:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on December 21, 2020, 11:31:01 AM

Our state (Connecticut) is giving you 90 days of immunity.  So to speak.  Meaning, if you've had it, if you can show a positive test of more than 14 days ago but less than 90 days ago, you don't have to follow the same protocols with respect to travel restrictions.

 :corn :corn

I don't get it. So you have to show a positive test result, and prove you were sick, and can be considered immune, because you caught it? or am I just way off base?

Edit: I think I get it...it's showing a test that is between about 2 weeks ago and no more than about 3 months old?

So, my kid tested positive in October.  Let's say it's the 15th (doesn't matter, but still).  She flew home for T-Giving (for good) and all she had to do was send her positive test results to the State Board of Health or whatever it's called, and she didn't have to "test in" or anything like that.  If the positive results were more than 90 days prior to her date of travel, that would not have been sufficient; she would have had to test like everyone else (I think that rule is negative test within 72 hours of flying, or any time after arrival, but a quarantine until your test results came back negative; don't rely on that as I may not have that exactly correct).

Oh ok. It's from the Date of Travel and The Date of Testing. I thought the days were for Testing Results only. But, that makes more sense now the way you described it.

The thing I find fascinating, is this only applies to Travelers by Air. What about those that travel by their own means, their own car, and travel to another state, are they on the honor system or what?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 21, 2020, 03:20:55 PM

My sister in law and her husband have now tested positive. They live about an hour away from us, we haven’t seen them....but both are teachers in an area of Missouri that is ry rural and has basically pretended the virus doesn’t exist. The scary part is my brother in law is, not exaggerating, 6’-8” tall and weighs at least 400lbs. He’s a HUGE dude. I’m concerned about how his body is going to handle this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 05:16:53 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2020, 11:04:51 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 21, 2020, 11:01:45 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2020, 10:38:33 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 08:08:37 AM

But there's still a small part of my psyche that would have found it a relief to know I had it, but other than a low-grade fever, was asymptomatic.  I don't have to worry about getting it because I already had it, and beat it.  That would've been okay too, you know?  But I realize that that's a rather twisted way to look at it.  It's Monday morning and I haven't had coffee yet.

Well, you're not immune from getting it if you have it once.  You can get it twice.

I am sure there are people whom are immune. Although, they may be rare, or uncommon. Just like any other sickness, some people are immune and some succumb to it. It's all based on our Immune System. And each of our Immunities are different based on the many aspects and ways we live our life.

OK, but I just meant that getting it once doesn't make you immune from getting it again.

Not completely immune, no, I get that.  For that matter, the vaccine doesn't 100% percent guarantee you won't contract it, either.  But in the grand scheme, it was relatively mild, my immune system responded and fought it off, and I'm that much better prepared for if/when I'm exposed to it again.  Yes, there are some reports of people getting a second time, but (to the best of my recollection), it was through repeated exposure, and some months apart.  I'm still staying home except for maybe an hour or two total per week, and in a couple of months I hope to have been vaccinated.  Contracting it now and beating it soundly would put me in a pretty good position overall.  Instead, I'm still waiting and hoping, same as most others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on December 21, 2020, 07:28:47 PM

Went to the dentist today. The hygienist was telling me that a few months ago, they had a guy come in for his appointment and as soon as they led him back to the room for his appointment, he stormed out because he was upset that people weren’t wearing their masks while their teeth were being cleaned. And he was serious.

My dentist isn’t doing polishing or flossing, only scraping. But it’s still full price for a cleaning, and the dentist office next door is doing full cleaning and polishing. It’s weird.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 21, 2020, 09:53:41 PM

My dentist (actually the hygienist) isn't doing the ultrasonic cleaning or any spraying, just old-fashioned scraping, to minimize the amount of stuff flying into the air.  Both wear a mask plus a full face shield that wraps around the sides, because the patient (obviously) is basically lying there fully exposed.  Thinking that someone is going to somehow have their teeth cleaned while wearing a mask is pretty dumb.  Heck, I'd be fine if they wore hazmat suits; they have a job to do, and they have a right to feel safe and be safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 22, 2020, 03:30:26 AM

My sister-in-law Cheryl is a Nurse Practitioner, a job she's had for over 30 years.  She's very knowledgeable when it comes to Covid-19 and we were just talking about "reinfection" over the weekend because her father tested positive way back in March (and he had a rough go of it) but got over it within about 2 weeks, then he tested positive again two weeks ago, this time he's got no symptoms other than feeling a bit run down.  So I asked Cheryl what the odds are of getting re-infected and she said she doesn't know what the odds are, she only knows that it's possible, but there have not been many documented cases.  She thinks in the long-run Covid-19 will likely mutate each year a lot like influenza, meaning the current vaccines will likely only be useful for a year or two, and new vaccines will be required as the virus mutates over time.  She emphasized that ALL of this is purely hypothetical at this point since lots more research is needed to determine how likely reinfection is and whether or not mutations will require new vaccines.


 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 22, 2020, 08:05:35 AM

That makes sense to me.  Viruses mutate.  That's how they continue to propagate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on December 22, 2020, 09:33:46 AM

It depends on many factors. I haven't read up on the latest science of covid though. Hopefully the mutation rate is too low for it to really become a frequent problem. And hopefully the vaccine(s) is(/are) aimed at a part of the virus that needs to be conserved for the virus to have it's disasterous effects.

Actually, one of the projects I have been involved with at work is monitoring a certain virus, globally, to see the effects of vaccination programs that have started decades back. The theory being that a vaccination and thus mass immunity imposes a new selective pressure on the virus. In that scenario the hypothetical strain that evades the immunity is the only one able to replicate/spread. Thus, a new strain can take over. This is why following the covid rules alongside vaccination programs in my view is absolutely crucial, because non-vaccinated people can form breeding grounds for new strains that can jump to (now formerly) immune persons. And it is why anti-vaccer groups are really dangerous, if the group becomes large enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on December 22, 2020, 09:40:09 AM

My 27 year old niece got it twice in about two months, so....

Personal note:  my long time friend from the 80s that I worked with for eight years before he moved back to the UP had to quarantine.  A friend who would come back down once a year and we would golf 3-4 times while he stayed with us, who's visited us in metro Baltimore a couple of times.   I've been up for his wedding and also a week of golfing, chat on the phone once a month or more.  Him, his wife, college daughter, and their two teen boys were all negative. 

The thoughts that went through my head during that time.

And......to all who have had it and made it through here on the forum, glad you are all still with us.  Best of luck as well with any lingering symptoms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 22, 2020, 12:02:15 PM

Quote from: ErHaO on December 22, 2020, 09:33:46 AM

It depends on many factors. I haven't read up on the latest science of covid though. Hopefully the mutation rate is too low for it to really become a frequent problem. And hopefully the vaccine(s) is(/are) aimed at a part of the virus that needs to be conserved for the virus to have it's disasterous effects.

My understanding is that this is the case. The vaccine is designed to set off an immune response to the spiked protein so as long as the mutations still have that, the vaccine should be effective. That of course is all in theory and I'm no doctor. However I believe this is why Fauci and others are currently stating they think the vaccine will be effective against the new UK mutation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: dparrott on December 23, 2020, 07:13:43 PM

Los Angeles is becoming the new epicenter, setting new records every day.  Thankfully I'm far east of it now in the desert, but still scary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on December 23, 2020, 10:06:39 PM

Meanwhile, former child star and now religious zealot Kurt Cameron holds nightly caroling sessions with 100+ people a night in LA....no masks, close proximity, as a protest.

What did the USA have in deaths yesterday?  3500?  And the day before?

Ya just cannot fix stupid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 24, 2020, 01:11:14 AM

You'd think we'd move past the religious processions of the Middle Ages where they wanted to pray the Black Death away and resulting only in spreading it further, at least their excuse was that the science wasn't strong and developed enough.

In the era of information readily accessible through something you can hold in your hand, there's no excuse for stupidity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 24, 2020, 07:37:27 AM

Quote from: DragonAttack on December 23, 2020, 10:06:39 PM

Meanwhile, former child star and now religious zealot Kurt Cameron holds nightly caroling sessions with 100+ people a night in LA....no masks, close proximity, as a protest.

What did the USA have in deaths yesterday?  3500?  And the day before?

Ya just cannot fix stupid.

Two very appropriate words.  Zealotry will trump science and logic 7 days a week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 24, 2020, 10:40:34 AM

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/pfizer-strikes-deal-u-government-184645828.html (https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/pfizer-strikes-deal-u-government-184645828.html)

Quote

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar said in a press release. "This new federal purchase can give Americans even more confidence that we will have enough supply to vaccinate every American who wants it by June 2021."

So in personal news, I travelled to Florida on Tuesday to see my parents.  Flight was almost completely booked, but overall felt safe. In the last row, no one sat next to me in one of the 3 open seats.  I actually got a free first class upgrade but gave it to my brother in law who was traveling with me.  He had a one seater so he wasn't next to anyone either.  The airports were EMPTY.  I only really got close to someone during TSA when I had to pull my mask down to confirm my ID but there was a shield between us. 

Anyway, what's crazy is that I tested negative on Saturday so decided I would stay inside until my flight to avoid exposure.  My friend on Saturday asked to hang out and I declined for that reason.  Yesterday he tested positive for covid, and apparently has it fairly bad (he's a Dr so he does have expsure to covid patients, so it's not surprising he finally got it).  Well point is, I dodged a bullet.  Got to keep playing it safe.

And for all the talk of Florida being crazy, the family went for outdoor dining yesterday and it seemed no different at all than anywhere else I've dined (which has been very very rare).  Masks on indoors and walking around, off while at table outdoors with tables seperated. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 24, 2020, 10:56:20 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 24, 2020, 10:40:34 AM

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/pfizer-strikes-deal-u-government-184645828.html (https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/pfizer-strikes-deal-u-government-184645828.html)

Quote

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar said in a press release. "This new federal purchase can give Americans even more confidence that we will have enough supply to vaccinate every American who wants it by June 2021."

So in personal news, I travelled to Florida on Tuesday to see my parents.  Flight was almost completely booked, but overall felt safe. In the last row, no one sat next to me in one of the 3 open seats.  I actually got a free first class upgrade but gave it to my brother in law who was traveling with me.  He had a one seater so he wasn't next to anyone either.  The airports were EMPTY.  I only really got close to someone during TSA when I had to pull my mask down to confirm my ID but there was a shield between us. 

Anyway, what's crazy is that I tested negative on Saturday so decided I would stay inside until my flight to avoid exposure.  My friend on Saturday asked to hang out and I declined for that reason.  Yesterday he tested positive for covid, and apparently has it fairly bad (he's a Dr so he does have expsure to covid patients, so it's not surprising he finally got it).  Well point is, I dodged a bullet.  Got to keep playing it safe.

Yeah - wifey and I are hunkering down feeling the same way. Our State estimates that they could get 70% to 75% of its citizens vaccinated by June of 2021 and that was BEFORE the Moderna vaccine was approved so I wonder if that will accelerate the process. And as a State employee who works in IT, I am considered an essential worker so it's possible that I could get the vaccine sooner than later. We'll see.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 24, 2020, 11:04:05 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 24, 2020, 01:11:14 AM

You'd think we'd move past the religious processions of the Middle Ages where they wanted to pray the Black Death away and resulting only in spreading it further, at least their excuse was that the science wasn't strong and developed enough.

In the era of information readily accessible through something you can hold in your hand, there's no excuse for stupidity.

Quote

Despite this view, it is important to note that the majority of Europeans did not experience a decline in their faith in God, but rather a decline in their confidence in the ability of the institution of the Church

http://thesis.honors.olemiss.edu/338/1/Zentner%20Thesis.pdf

This is a really interesting thesis by the way.

Just wait till other major events start to happen. Then you'll see this... :lol
https://youtu.be/BoJGZM4I62k

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 24, 2020, 02:16:26 PM

Just heard from my mother that my sister in law tested positive, which of course means my brother probably has it. My niece and nephew just arrived at their house before the results came in. They visited my other brother a few days ago and my sister in law hugged him, so now of course he's fucking freaked out about it. My parents are overly cautious thank god, and I live a few hours from them all so haven't had any contact.

The thing that is pissing me off. The whole of the family aside from this brother is very cautious about the virus. He on the other hand sends his kid to a private christian daycare, attends in person AA meetings (they're considered essential, though I've been online for mine for the last 9 months) and all the other stupid shit that people who don't respect the virus do. Now they may have passed it to my niece, nephew, and other brother and his wife.

Fuck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on December 24, 2020, 02:48:37 PM

Got notification this morning from my employer that I was eligible for vaccination. Signed up, and as of 1045a on New Year’s Eve, I’ll hopefully be halfway to immunized from this thing. Here we go...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2020, 02:54:01 PM

Good news Snow Dog.

R.J. I know the feeling. I worry about my dad all the time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on December 24, 2020, 03:06:04 PM

lonestar, I am not sure if I read this right, but I don't think sending your kid to daycare is "stupid shit."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bout to crash on December 24, 2020, 06:18:57 PM

Quote from: Snow Dog on December 24, 2020, 02:48:37 PM

Got notification this morning from my employer that I was eligible for vaccination. Signed up, and as of 1045a on New Year’s Eve, I’ll hopefully be halfway to immunized from this thing. Here we go...

I made an appointment today as well! I’m getting my first shot Wednesday and pumped about it!

RJ, I’m sorry, I hope the rest of your family is okay  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 24, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 24, 2020, 02:16:26 PM

Just heard from my mother that my sister in law tested positive, which of course means my brother probably has it. My niece and nephew just arrived at their house before the results came in. They visited my other brother a few days ago and my sister in law hugged him, so now of course he's fucking freaked out about it. My parents are overly cautious thank god, and I live a few hours from them all so haven't had any contact.

The thing that is pissing me off. The whole of the family aside from this brother is very cautious about the virus. He on the other hand sends his kid to a private christian daycare, attends in person AA meetings (they're considered essential, though I've been online for mine for the last 9 months) and all the other stupid shit that people who don't respect the virus do. Now they may have passed it to my niece, nephew, and other brother and his wife.

Fuck.

Hopefully all will be OK.


It's also possible that your brother may have had nothing to do with your S-I-L getting it, right?

Are his in person meetings essential to his recovery where yours are not?

Not trying to be a dick, or even a devil's advocate.




Seriously RJ, I don't mean any disrespect, but your post has a lot to chew on, and by that I mean in general.....not specific to you.

My wife had some drama in her family today about being cautious vs not being cautious. I don't have the energy to jot it all down here. Nothing to do with any positive tests...but still bullshit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 24, 2020, 09:35:11 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 24, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 24, 2020, 02:16:26 PM

Just heard from my mother that my sister in law tested positive, which of course means my brother probably has it. My niece and nephew just arrived at their house before the results came in. They visited my other brother a few days ago and my sister in law hugged him, so now of course he's fucking freaked out about it. My parents are overly cautious thank god, and I live a few hours from them all so haven't had any contact.

The thing that is pissing me off. The whole of the family aside from this brother is very cautious about the virus. He on the other hand sends his kid to a private christian daycare, attends in person AA meetings (they're considered essential, though I've been online for mine for the last 9 months) and all the other stupid shit that people who don't respect the virus do. Now they may have passed it to my niece, nephew, and other brother and his wife.

Fuck.

Hopefully all will be OK.


It's also possible that your brother may have had nothing to do with your S-I-L getting it, right?

Are his in person meetings essential to his recovery where yours are not?

Not trying to be a dick, or even a devil's advocate.




Seriously RJ, I don't mean any disrespect, but your post has a lot to chew on, and by that I mean in general.....not specific to you.

My wife had some drama in her family today about being cautious vs not being cautious. I don't have the energy to jot it all down here. Nothing to do with any positive tests...but still bullshit.

I would say no, he's got 17 years sobriety and is well entrenched, he was itching at the first chance to go to in person meetings. In the beginning during the first shutdown, he would drive to other less stringent counties, or those that were basically ignoring the order, to get a haircut and such. It was bad enough to where my parents didnt' want him coming over. He is one of those who constantly bitch about Newsom's 'Nazi-like' orders and govt overreach etc. I think the point of my rant above was that of all my family, it was the one person who had the most casual attitude about the pandemic that got it first, and of course they had xmas with her family over the weekend (no masks, etc) with some elderly people in attendance, so hopefully they weren't contagious yet.


@Chris, I was out of line on that point, obviously daycare is essential for a good deal of people who need to work. I was raging pissed when I typed that, and have cooled down since. Thanks for calling me out on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on December 24, 2020, 10:18:49 PM

I didn't mean to call you out. Lots of families are making tough decisions, and sending their kids to a day care or other care provider is one of the toughest. My 3 year old is at a facility we trust is doing the best they can, but kids are kids. They don't wear masks, they don't wash their hands, they give each other hugs. But we have to work, and the kids need social interaction with their peers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 24, 2020, 10:35:12 PM

RJ, I hope it all works out for you.  We had a little drama over the past week or so in our family.  I think we're going to be clear, but I can't help but think it's but for the grace of god (or dumb luck, or whatever you believe in).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on December 24, 2020, 11:35:33 PM

Getting my first vaccine dose on Tuesday afternoon. Sadly, none of the 4 closest hospitals to me that I work for have any openings. I have to travel about 45 miles away. Should only be about an hour drive so not a big deal. I have like 9 hospitals to choose from so that's good anyway. My Director and Manager are going out of their way to get everyone vaccinated so there won't be any push-back for me being missing for a couple of hours.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 25, 2020, 07:45:36 AM

Quote from: lonestar on December 24, 2020, 09:35:11 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 24, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 24, 2020, 02:16:26 PM

Just heard from my mother that my sister in law tested positive, which of course means my brother probably has it. My niece and nephew just arrived at their house before the results came in. They visited my other brother a few days ago and my sister in law hugged him, so now of course he's fucking freaked out about it. My parents are overly cautious thank god, and I live a few hours from them all so haven't had any contact.

The thing that is pissing me off. The whole of the family aside from this brother is very cautious about the virus. He on the other hand sends his kid to a private christian daycare, attends in person AA meetings (they're considered essential, though I've been online for mine for the last 9 months) and all the other stupid shit that people who don't respect the virus do. Now they may have passed it to my niece, nephew, and other brother and his wife.

Fuck.

Hopefully all will be OK.


It's also possible that your brother may have had nothing to do with your S-I-L getting it, right?

Are his in person meetings essential to his recovery where yours are not?

Not trying to be a dick, or even a devil's advocate.




Seriously RJ, I don't mean any disrespect, but your post has a lot to chew on, and by that I mean in general.....not specific to you.

My wife had some drama in her family today about being cautious vs not being cautious. I don't have the energy to jot it all down here. Nothing to do with any positive tests...but still bullshit.

I would say no, he's got 17 years sobriety and is well entrenched, he was itching at the first chance to go to in person meetings. In the beginning during the first shutdown, he would drive to other less stringent counties, or those that were basically ignoring the order, to get a haircut and such. It was bad enough to where my parents didnt' want him coming over. He is one of those who constantly bitch about Newsom's 'Nazi-like' orders and govt overreach etc. I think the point of my rant above was that of all my family, it was the one person who had the most casual attitude about the pandemic that got it first, and of course they had xmas with her family over the weekend (no masks, etc) with some elderly people in attendance, so hopefully they weren't contagious yet.

OK, thanks, RJ. You know your family and well...karma and all that.

I didn't mean any disrespect. I was also raging pissed as well when I posted with the family drama for my wife yesterday. I'll post on it later..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 25, 2020, 08:21:59 AM

I don't want to call it karma, it's just coincidental like I said above to Chris. I think I was also so hot because I had talked to my mom right before posting, and she was pissed. When mom is pissed, I'm pissed. I'd actually guess it either came from the preschool via my niece, or from my SIL's work, she's a manager at a sandwich shop. But they also have a loose knit bubble of people at their condo complex, and she's a hugger, so who the fuck knows. Their symptoms are mild so far thankfully, and I think the fact that they can't taste any of their Xmas meals should be lesson enough of the seriousness of Covid. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 25, 2020, 09:03:13 AM

Quote from: lonestar on December 25, 2020, 08:21:59 AM

I think the fact that they can't taste any of their Xmas meals should be lesson enough of the seriousness of Covid. :lol

Send him a link to the DTF Barbecue thread! ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 25, 2020, 10:12:52 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 25, 2020, 09:03:13 AM

Quote from: lonestar on December 25, 2020, 08:21:59 AM

I think the fact that they can't taste any of their Xmas meals should be lesson enough of the seriousness of Covid. :lol

Send him a link to the DTF Barbecue thread! ;D

He already has scallops, crab, mussels and prime rib ready to cook. Poor guy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 25, 2020, 03:22:09 PM

So, apparently in the UK they're doing tests on a new drug / medication that could grant more or less immediate immunity, and that would stop the virus Sars-Cov-2 to develop into Covid...

We've heard so many things this year so this for me falls into the "Eh, I'll wait for proof first" camp, but it would be very nice to have an additional help, also it would be very poetic if it was discovered on this on all days, 25th December, and we all obviously know who was born this day.... Isaac Newton!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 25, 2020, 04:09:06 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 25, 2020, 03:22:09 PM

So, apparently in the UK they're doing tests on a new drug / medication that could grant more or less immediate immunity, and that would stop the virus Sars-Cov-2 to develop into Covid...

We've heard so many things this year so this for me falls into the "Eh, I'll wait for proof first" camp, but it would be very nice to have an additional help, also it would be very poetic if it was discovered on this on all days, 25th December, and we all obviously know who was born this day.... Isaac Newton!

Yeah, I'll believe that when they find one for the flu.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on December 27, 2020, 09:56:37 AM

So......I got vaccinated, and I feel guilty about it.

My wife’s friend works at the local hospital that was conducting a vaccination clinic meant mostly for staff. Just before 6pm last night she texted us saying they have about 20 extra doses left and they need to be administered that evening or they would expire so if we wanted to be vaccinated get there immediately. Both my wife and I looked at each other and were basically shocked and confused.  We mentally were not ready to be vaccinated as we expected our turn to be obviously later in the spring or even the summer. We had a five minute discussion and made the decision to get it.

The entire drive there I was questioning if it was the right thing to do, as these first doses were obviously meant for essential workers, hospital staff, etc. My wife and I both have been overly cautious since March, she’s been working from home, I’ve taken a leave of absence from my job, our kid is virtual learning, we don’t go anywhere unless it’s absolutely necessary, in general we’ve become hermits. WE SHOULD NOT BE THE ONES GETTING VACCINATED.

But here we are, both with sore shoulders and the first of two doses in our systems. I didn’t deserve this, it was meant for people more important than me and I can’t get over this feeling of guilt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on December 27, 2020, 10:03:16 AM

Look at it this way, would it have been worse if you got vaccinated or that those doses went to waste? I would vote that throwing those doses in the trash is the bigger waste. Last week one of my hospitals had 250 doses that were set to expire. They were scrambling to find anyone to vaccinate so they wouldn't end up in the trash.

I get vaccinated on Tuesday so I will be joining the club soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 27, 2020, 10:28:11 AM

Exactly.  I understand the guilty feeling, but you didn't deprive anyone of anything.  It wasn't between you getting it and someone else; it was between you getting it and the doses being thrown away.  An unfortunate side-effect of the short shelf life of the vaccine is that this will happen sometimes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 27, 2020, 11:50:34 AM

I agree. Better an early vaccination than letting the vaccine going to waste.

Also, it's V-Day in Europe! first vaccines are being administrated in many countries from this day onward!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 27, 2020, 12:26:57 PM

I'll chime in and say that T-Ski, it's OK. I understand the guilt as I am wondering if I will be first in line because IT is considered essential for the State. If I  have the opportunity to get it soon then I will take it and I hope everyone does when it's their turn. But if I have to wait my turn then I will wait.

Good fortune to you and yours!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 27, 2020, 01:08:30 PM

Definitely good fortune, and I think Bob said it best.  Trash vs human getting vaccinated.... it's a no brainer

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 27, 2020, 02:02:53 PM

^^^that


Seems my bro and his wife are getting through it mildly. No fever, no breathing issues, just mainly a loss of taste and smell. They're quarantining like good citizens, now we're just waiting to see if they passed it on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 27, 2020, 02:03:34 PM

That's good to hear.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 27, 2020, 02:06:49 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 27, 2020, 02:03:34 PM

That's good to hear.

Very, especially considering they got a good 40 years of smoking between the two of them, and she still smokes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on December 30, 2020, 01:51:23 AM

I'm officially Covid-free as of today! My parents were self-isolating in another house so they didn't catch it. Not sure if there'll be any long-term complications as I had a fairly mild case, right now I feel pretty good.

I was at the clinic today to get my sick leave certificate for the past 16 days and holy shit it was packed with people. I didn't expect anything else but it was still impressive, not in a good way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 30, 2020, 01:52:10 AM

Quote from: Evermind on December 30, 2020, 01:51:23 AM

I'm officially Covid-free as of today!

Fuck yeeeeeah!!!!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 05:48:17 AM

Quote from: Evermind on December 30, 2020, 01:51:23 AM

I'm officially Covid-free as of today! My parents were self-isolating in another house so they didn't catch it. Not sure if there'll be any long-term complications as I had a fairly mild case, right now I feel pretty good.

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F244.gif&hash=e6ba13e9b33164d6073f532d691a77ff0d6ddce9)

DTF v COVID: 2-for-2

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on December 30, 2020, 06:46:45 AM

It all feels like a big lottery because navigating through the maze trying to avoid getting infected feels kinda random. The closest in my family is my sister getting a positive and I met her family not to long ago so i've been isolating myself as much as possible and kinda been doing the waiting game to feel sick but it's been 11 days since we met so I feel maybe I got away this time. Eitherway i'm doing a one man party on new year but that's totally fine by me.

Stay safe everyone!  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 30, 2020, 07:12:53 AM

And now a bummer.  Our director sent an email out yesterday letting us know that his administrative assistant, basically the person who "really" runs the department, has died.  No details yet, but we do know that she'd tested positive for Covid and "wasn't feeling well" lately.

I now know four people personally who have had it (that I know of), but this is the first one who died.  She was a great, positive person, extremely capable and knowledgeable.  I would guess she was in her mid 40's.  I'm back to work this week for a few days, taking care of some end-of-year stuff and getting stuff set up for next year, and we don't have the official 2021 calendar yet, with company holidays and stuff on it.  I briefly thought "she usually sends them out by now" and then remembered and was sad.

:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on December 30, 2020, 07:22:33 AM

I'm sorry for your loss Orbert.  :'(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 07:36:39 AM

That’s awful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 30, 2020, 07:39:52 AM

Orbert, that's terrible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on December 30, 2020, 07:40:16 AM

 :-[

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 30, 2020, 08:47:46 AM

Orbert, I am very sorry for your loss.

So...   my uncle (mom's sister's husband) passed not last night, but the night before; he was sick, but COVID was the knock-out blow he couldn't withstand.   My stepson's grandmother (my wife's ex's mom) passed yesterday; she was sick, but COVID was the final kick in the pants.  A local attorney here in town shot his wife in her sleep and took his own life, and authorities believe that COVID "was a factor" (he had tested positive at one point in the past couple weeks).  I have a hard time including that last one in anything directly "COVID-related" but still.  He WAS positive. 

It's sort of surreal. 

According to my cousin (who I believe), my uncle was doing all the right things.  According to my wife's ex (who would lie about what day it is), his mom was doing all the right things.   I have no idea on the third example, but still.    It seems so... I think Mr. Boom is on to something.  It seems so random. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 30, 2020, 09:11:42 AM

oh shit, sorry for your loss Stads and Orbert.  That's really fucking rough and tragic.

Just want to add about the murder suicide, it could be directly related to covid as psychotic episodes are a symptom.  It could be like everyone else, where covid was just the final straw in a not so healthy situation to begin with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 30, 2020, 09:12:50 AM

I'm so sorry to read that Orbert and Stadler.  Man, reading that makes me worry about my dad big time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on December 30, 2020, 09:28:23 AM

Stadler and Orbert, I'm sorry for your losses.  :-[

I lost an uncle to Covid the weekend before Christmas.  He and my aunt just celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary this summer.  He was 74.  He had a stroke 8 years ago.  My aunt is currently recovering from breast cancer.  Somehow, she has avoided Covid so far.  At the same time, my 91 year old Grandmother is recovering from Covid, as is one of my other aunts, who is in her early 60's.  My uncle passed 53 weeks after my Dad passed after battling lung and liver cancer.  So, it has not been a fun time in my family lately, either. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 30, 2020, 09:39:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on December 30, 2020, 09:11:42 AM

oh shit, sorry for your loss Stads and Orbert.  That's really fucking rough and tragic.

Just want to add about the murder suicide, it could be directly related to covid as psychotic episodes are a symptom.  It could be like everyone else, where covid was just the final straw in a not so healthy situation to begin with.

I didn't know that about the psychotic episodes.   Someone theoried that it was a result of transmission ("Were you with that guy?"  "NO, I swear!" and then they both get tested positive.  But I have no way of knowing any of that.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 30, 2020, 09:57:57 AM

I just read yesterday about psychoses being somewhat rare but real side effects of COVID for some people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 10:19:25 AM

I'm very sorry for everyone who's experiencing losses related to this pandemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on December 30, 2020, 10:40:29 AM

Just awful news from Orbert and Stadler, wish we could just hit the reset button and end this whole thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 10:52:47 AM

Jeesh Bill that’s terrible. I’m sorry to hear all that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 01:06:06 PM

Well, I got a text from my son and he and his whole family have Covid now.  This, of course, was inevitable since my daughter-in-law's family are all hard-core supporters of a certain delusional politician who is about to ride off into the sunset and so, since they're all absolutely positive that the virus is "just another left-wing conspiracy to marginalize conservatives" (<--a literal quote from one of these fucking morons) they had a MASSIVE and completely mask-less family gathering for Christmas.   :facepalm:


Now, 15 of them, including my son, his wife and both my grandchildren are sick. Fortunately the kids seem to have bounced right back and my son and his wife are doing OK, but a few of the ones who got sick are in the hospital, one of them is already on a ventilator and they're telling the family to get ready to say their goodbyes - it's only been a week since she was diagnosed and she's just barely clinging to life - AND IT NEVER HAD TO HAPPEN.  I wonder how these fucking morons feel about the "left-wing conspiracy" now?  I am so fucking mad right now.  >:( :censored

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 01:17:23 PM

Jesus Barry... so sorry to hear that.  Glad you weren't exposed to that, and made your trip/visit under safer conditions (iirc).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 01:23:15 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 01:17:23 PM

Jesus Barry... so sorry to hear that.  Glad you weren't exposed to that, and made your trip/visit under safer conditions (iirc).

Before we ever drove down there I made my son promise me that no one in their household would come into contact with anyone outside of their household (without being fully masked and socially distant) for the 2 weeks prior to the trip.  They agreed to my terms and as far as I am aware they honored the agreement.  In my daughter-in-law's defense, she was not really comfortable with the big family gathering and she made her opinion known to her sisters but they wore her down and she said she "gave in" and took the whole family over there.

I really like her a lot.  She's a good kid with a good head on her shoulders, but her family are all.....well....last week they all attended a "stop the steal" rally in Atlanta, I'll just leave it at that.  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 01:40:50 PM

I'm just glad you made it out safe last month.  For as much as others "promise" to follow a certain protocol to minimize risk in gatherings, you (royal) just can't be 100% certain.  We violated our current guidelines to make a quick 90-minute stop to see jingle.mom and jingle.mother-in-law on Monday, with the very strict conditions that it would be a fully masked visit, no food or drink (my mother is quite the 'entertaining' type so this a big thing for her), and sitting on opposite sides of the room - especially since my mother had a visit with my brother and SIL's parents on Christmas day (with the same conditions you outlined in your post).

And what happens when we arrive at her apartment, she she's wearing a mask to open the door for us, and then promptly takes it off and is sipping coffee within the first 60 seconds after we arrive.  "But I'm on the other side of the room" (and some other bullshit reasons why she didn't want to wear it - 'I've been isolating for 2 weeks')... uh, I don't care - you just spent a day with people I don't know for certain how 'isolating' they've been.  I was on the verge of saying 'put it on or we're leaving' (the thought was running thru my mind), but fortunately she did put it on.  It still set a very bad tone for the entire visit.  mrs.jingle was furious, and the jingle.kids were none to happy either.

Some people!

Thankfully, MIL's visit was much better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:14:29 PM

Jesus, this fucking thing is like a universal common sense remover  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM

And....she's dead  ???    Less than 2 weeks from the onset of symptoms.  No one got to say goodbye, not even on zoom or the phone because she didn't have a smartphone and she had been in a medically induced coma.  un-fucking-real.  Two weeks ago she was calling it a "hoax conjured up by the liberal elite to get Trump out of office" and now she's dead.  She's my daughter-in-law's mother's aunt so her great aunt I guess.  She was only 63 - 6 years older than me. And now she's dead because she believed everything that came out of the mouth of a pathological liar. un-fucking-real. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 02:25:37 PM

Damn, man. :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:31:20 PM

Jesus dude.  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 02:32:41 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM

And....she's dead  ???    Less than 2 weeks from the onset of symptoms.  No one got to say goodbye, not even on zoom or the phone because she didn't have a smartphone and she had been in a medically induced coma.  un-fucking-real.  Two weeks ago she was calling it a "hoax conjured up by the liberal elite to get Trump out of office" and now she's dead.  She's my daughter-in-law's mother's aunt so her great aunt I guess.  She was only 63 - 6 years older than me. And now she's dead because she believed everything that came out of the mouth of a pathological liar. un-fucking-real.

Very sorry to hear that, Barry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 30, 2020, 02:35:27 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM

And....she's dead  ???    Less than 2 weeks from the onset of symptoms.  No one got to say goodbye, not even on zoom or the phone because she didn't have a smartphone and she had been in a medically induced coma.  un-fucking-real.  Two weeks ago she was calling it a "hoax conjured up by the liberal elite to get Trump out of office" and now she's dead.  She's my daughter-in-law's mother's aunt so her great aunt I guess.  She was only 63 - 6 years older than me. And now she's dead because she believed everything that came out of the mouth of a pathological liar. un-fucking-real.

That's insane dude. But not surprising.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:38:16 PM

Sorry, I am *not* trying to turn this into a political thread at all.  Those are just the facts.  What a fucked up situation.  :yeahright

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

A shocking wake up call for the family that as you said, shouldn't have happened.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 02:44:45 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

Well, of course it's horrifically sad, but these people (Trump worshippers in general, not necessarily your DiL's family) are adults with the ability to think and make choices.

I don't mean to say that to be a dick. Like you said, it makes you mad, and I understand. There's an element to this in my wife's family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:47:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

A shocking wake up call for the family that as you said, shouldn't have happened.

Sadly, from what I've seen of her family I'm not sure how much of an actual wake up call this will be.  The jury is still out on that.   In the thread on Facebook where her death was announced, I had to stop looking at it because of all the posts calling the cause of death into question.  "Yeah, but was it *really* Covid-19 that killed her?"  or "most likely she died from something completely unrelated to Covid-19"  It's like Georgia is on a completely different fucking planet  :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:47:36 PM

I wonder if the rest of the family now realise how blinded and arrogant they have been.  Don't mean to come across as a dick either but they were playing Russian Roulette by the sounds and lost.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:48:33 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:47:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

A shocking wake up call for the family that as you said, shouldn't have happened.

Sadly, from what I've seen of her family I'm not sure how much of an actual wake up call this will be.  The jury is still out on that.   In the thread on Facebook where her death was announced, I had to stop looking at it because of all the posts calling the cause of death into question.  "Yeah, but was it *really* Covid-19 that killed her?"  or "most likely she died from something completely unrelated to Covid-19"  It's like Georgia is on a completely different fucking planet  :\

Oh Jesus!  WTF? Mind boggling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:52:57 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 30, 2020, 02:44:45 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

Well, of course it's horrifically sad, but these people (Trump worshippers in general, not necessarily your DiL's family) are adults with the ability to think and make choices.

I don't mean to say that to be a dick. Like you said, it makes you mad, and I understand. There's an element to this in my wife's family.

Don't worry, I don't take it that way at all. 


The willful ignorance in this is what makes it so incredibly infuriating.   >:(


Honestly, I see this almost as suicide or death by misadventure - it just didn't have to happen, but the person who died was gullible and easily manipulated by a charismatic leader who couldn't possibly give one single fuck about people like her, but she took his word as gospel and now she's fucking dead.  Can't put that toothpaste back in the tube.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:57:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:48:33 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:47:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

A shocking wake up call for the family that as you said, shouldn't have happened.

Sadly, from what I've seen of her family I'm not sure how much of an actual wake up call this will be.  The jury is still out on that.   In the thread on Facebook where her death was announced, I had to stop looking at it because of all the posts calling the cause of death into question.  "Yeah, but was it *really* Covid-19 that killed her?"  or "most likely she died from something completely unrelated to Covid-19"  It's like Georgia is on a completely different fucking planet  :\

Oh Jesus!  WTF? Mind boggling.

After spending a week down there and seeing what I saw, it's not as mind-boggling to me as it may be to you.  Restaurants?  Packed with people not wearing masks.  Bars?  same.  Wall to wall people, no masks in sight.  I'm telling you, in the southern and mid-western and upper mid-western parts of the United States there is a new kind of "ignorance as a badge of honor" mentality that scoffs at science, until they need it, that is. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 03:01:50 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/dawn-wells-dies-of-covid-19-mary-ann-on-gilligan-s-island-was-82/ar-BB1cm21J?li=BBorjTa

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 03:03:04 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:57:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:48:33 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:47:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

A shocking wake up call for the family that as you said, shouldn't have happened.

Sadly, from what I've seen of her family I'm not sure how much of an actual wake up call this will be.  The jury is still out on that.   In the thread on Facebook where her death was announced, I had to stop looking at it because of all the posts calling the cause of death into question.  "Yeah, but was it *really* Covid-19 that killed her?"  or "most likely she died from something completely unrelated to Covid-19"  It's like Georgia is on a completely different fucking planet  :\

Oh Jesus!  WTF? Mind boggling.

After spending a week down there and seeing what I saw, it's not as mind-boggling to me as it may be to you.  Restaurants?  Packed with people not wearing masks.  Bars?  same.  Wall to wall people, no masks in sight.  I'm telling you, in the southern and mid-western and upper mid-western parts of the United States there is a new kind of "ignorance as a badge of honor" mentality that scoffs at science, until they need it, that is.

Where I am mate, I've experienced probably about 1% of what's going on over there.  It's been next to nothing where I am.  I couldn't comprehend what it's been like over in the states.  But seeing on the news the numbers of people dying over there daily makes you question how people can be so blasae about it all.  That is truly shocking to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 30, 2020, 03:11:59 PM

This is nothing short of cult mentality. Interesting to note that when the Heaven's Gate cult was active there were some who left the cult. When they found out the Applewhite and crew actually went through wit it, they themselves committed suicide so as not to be left behind. Just sayin...... ???

On a more positive note - in another couple of months, we should have 3 new vaccines.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on December 30, 2020, 03:27:13 PM

Damn, awful news in this thread. Sorry to hear about all of this. 

I don't want to get too deep into the P/R stuff of it (I avoid that subforum now for a reason), but the stupidity of people thinking COVID is no big deal is mind-boggling.  Ugh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 30, 2020, 03:37:47 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:57:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:48:33 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:47:04 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:37:20 PM

I never met the lady myself, so I don't really know her, but her reputation as a very VERY staunch and hard-core Trump supporter is legendary in my daughter-in-law's family.  I can't help but think that if Trump hadn't mocked mask wearing this lady never would have lost her life.  THAT's what gets my blood boiling.  >:(

A shocking wake up call for the family that as you said, shouldn't have happened.

Sadly, from what I've seen of her family I'm not sure how much of an actual wake up call this will be.  The jury is still out on that.   In the thread on Facebook where her death was announced, I had to stop looking at it because of all the posts calling the cause of death into question.  "Yeah, but was it *really* Covid-19 that killed her?"  or "most likely she died from something completely unrelated to Covid-19"  It's like Georgia is on a completely different fucking planet  :\

Oh Jesus!  WTF? Mind boggling.

After spending a week down there and seeing what I saw, it's not as mind-boggling to me as it may be to you.  Restaurants?  Packed with people not wearing masks.  Bars?  same.  Wall to wall people, no masks in sight.  I'm telling you, in the southern and mid-western and upper mid-western parts of the United States there is a new kind of "ignorance as a badge of honor" mentality that scoffs at science, until they need it, that is.

Barry, first and foremost, sorry for your loss, and I hope your family is as healthy as possible as quickly as possible.  That is all that matters.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 30, 2020, 03:39:36 PM

I've been going back and forth as to whether or not to make the post I'm going to make below....because what I've read from Barry and Bill truly is bummer and seemingly avoidable....but I'm just going to make it anyway in the spirit of conversation. It's a curiosity how this virus affects people differently....but by in large the people who have died from it seem to have had an underlying condition. There are the outliers here and there of a 'perfectly healthy' younger person or child that are brutal to read....but, for the most part it's the underlying conditions compounded with covid that are killing people.

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 03:03:04 PM

But seeing on the news the numbers of people dying over there daily makes you question how people can be so blasae about it all.  That is truly shocking to me.

IMO the "deaths from COVID" number is a number that we truly don't know and won't ever know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SjwUXyP8j4

I was sent this video by a person who is WAY more conspiratorial than me but that doesn't change the fact that the reports of the numbers being skewed and off have a basis of reality behind them. Yes, Covid is highly contagious and if the wrong person gets it it might well kill them.....not unlike many other viruses out there. I'm trying not to be 'blasae' about the death numbers and the virus in general....but I do think they're misleading when you can consistently find credible evidence like this video on the internet. It will be years....maybe even decades before it's understood exactly how many deaths were directly associated to this covid virus.

Wear your mask, wash your hands, get the vaccine when possible and socially distance and if you're in one of the categories of people health wise that really shouldn't get it....stay away from other people. But I don't think your life or the country needs to go on hold.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 30, 2020, 03:50:36 PM

I think the point that is not stressed enough is that people don't die from the covids, they die from complications caused by the virus. HIV is similar, you don't from the virus but rather complications caused from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on December 30, 2020, 04:04:35 PM

Damn, this thread is just terrible today (not the posts themselves, just what people are experiencing and sharing). Sorry for everyone's losses. 

My Dr friend said today he is finally feeling better after a little over a week of bad covid symptoms and luckily his two parents that he lives with so far have not caught it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 04:10:52 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 30, 2020, 03:39:36 PM

I was sent this video by a person who is WAY more conspiratorial than me but that doesn't change the fact that the reports of the numbers being skewed and off have a basis of reality behind them.

So The Lovely Mrs TAC leans right, and fucking hates Democrats. She's always talking about how the numbers are inflated. And she states just what the video says, that It's not Covid killing these people, but what they already have, and just because they have Covid doesn't mean that was the cause.

My answer to her is that let's follow the trends, the positivity rate, the hospital rates. I mean no one knows for sure what killed them exactly, but I figure there's some underreporting going on as well. It's OK, as far as I'm concerned to take the death from Covid numbers with a grain of salt. Just because it may not be 1000% Solid Foolproof doesn't mean it's skewed. It just mean, to me at least, an approximation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 30, 2020, 04:10:58 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on December 30, 2020, 03:27:13 PM

Damn, awful news in this thread. Sorry to hear about all of this. 

I don't want to get too deep into the P/R stuff of it (I avoid that subforum now for a reason), but the stupidity of people thinking COVID is no big deal is mind-boggling.  Ugh.

Yours is a good post to respond to to make the point that COVD knows no political boundaries.  I've recounted how COVID is seemingly encroaching on all sides of my family, and it just doesn't follow the demographic.   My stepson's dad's family aren't Trump supporters, they just don't give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves.   You know where I live; it's a blue state, and not even close.  There's a titty bar not five miles from me, and I drove by it yesterday and the parking lot was full.   California is by FAR the worst state in the union for the resurgence (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Data-shows-California-s-coronavirus-surge-is-15834616.php).   I think what sets the Trump supporters apart is the nature of the rhetoric, but stupid is as stupid does, and I'm just seeing a lack of "give a shit" across the board.   

And even that is a generalization.  I'd rather not go into details, but even in my intimate family, I can tell you that there is... let's be kind and say "uncertainty" in what is the safest protocol.   There are people for whom "negative test" is be-all and end-all, regardless of when the test was taken.   If you're exposed on Day 0, and test on Day 1 and get a negative, it means NOTHING.  If you get a negative on day 4, it means more, but it's NOT definitive.  I'm pretty sure at least one case was transmitted as a result of "misunderstanding" what a "14-day incubation period" meant.  No bad intentions, no political positioning, just a denial of what's possible and a false sense of security.

To Gary's point, the two people I lost (and by the way, thank you for all the kind words) were in tough shape even without COVID.   My uncle likely died of COVID-related complications, and will be a COVID death statistic, but in his  case, it's just not correct to say he would have lived but for COVID.  He wasn't in hospice but he was receiving long term care.   I know less about it, but I understand my stepson's grandmother was similar; she smoked like a chimney up to the end, and was battling other conditions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 30, 2020, 04:14:33 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on December 30, 2020, 03:50:36 PM

I think the point that is not stressed enough is that people don't die from the covids, they die from complications caused by the virus. HIV is similar, you don't from the virus but rather complications caused from it.

And from what I've (mostly) seen, it beats the shit out of you.  So things you MIGHT have survived take a bigger toll.  Maybe I'm mis-defining, "complication of", but even when it's not a "complication" per se, it probably disadvantages your ability to rally to unrelated things that would otherwise be a nuisance, not fatal. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 04:14:39 PM

@ Gary... First, I'll jump on what Hunnus said - *I* believe that many many deaths are due to a combination of factors.  Would the Type-2 Diabetic have died from COVID if they didn't have diabetes?  Conversely, would they still be alive if not for having contracted COVID.  Attributing it to the last diagnosed illness is I think the right way to 'count' it.

Secondly I totally believe the numbers are over-inflated in some regards (such as the State of IL formal definition of a COVID death), and under-represented in other regards.  I'm sure there are some that have passed without a positive test, and that is under-representing.  For instance, my father died in hospital from what I believe was at first a blood clot (he'd had brutal leg pain and swelling that had hospitalized him) but the evening before he passed, he was having trouble breathing, and ultimately died from a heart attack.  It's quite possible he'd contracted COVID, and that's what pushed his body beyond its limits.

So... over counted in many cases - absolutely; under-counted in some cases - quite likely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 05:02:32 PM

Sorry to hear about your old man Chad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 05:02:32 PM

Sorry to hear about your old man Chad.

Yeah, same here. Didn't know that at all. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 05:05:26 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 05:02:32 PM

Sorry to hear about your old man Chad.

Yeah, same here. Didn't know that at all. :(

That was back in June.  Guess I never posted about it here??  Long(ish) story, not for this thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:06:27 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 05:05:26 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 05:02:32 PM

Sorry to hear about your old man Chad.

Yeah, same here. Didn't know that at all. :(

That was back in June.  Guess I never posted about it here??  Long(ish) story, not for this thread.

No you didn't that I recall. That's awful, man and I'm sorry to hear that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on December 30, 2020, 05:14:45 PM

Fuck Barry, that's insane.  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 30, 2020, 05:29:06 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 04:14:39 PM

@ Gary... First, I'll jump on what Hunnus said - *I* believe that many many deaths are due to a combination of factors.  Would the Type-2 Diabetic have died from COVID if they didn't have diabetes?  Conversely, would they still be alive if not for having contracted COVID.  Attributing it to the last diagnosed illness is I think the right way to 'count' it.

Secondly I totally believe the numbers are over-inflated in some regards (such as the State of IL formal definition of a COVID death), and under-represented in other regards.  I'm sure there are some that have passed without a positive test, and that is under-representing.  For instance, my father died in hospital from what I believe was at first a blood clot (he'd had brutal leg pain and swelling that had hospitalized him) but the evening before he passed, he was having trouble breathing, and ultimately died from a heart attack.  It's quite possible he'd contracted COVID, and that's what pushed his body beyond its limits.

So... over counted in many cases - absolutely; under-counted in some cases - quite likely.

Yeah. I guess My point and what I’m driving at more is the issue of this virus being hijacked by politics. The media, politicians and all the organizations and people with influence have taken this pandemic and turned it into something even more vile than the disease itself.

If we had true leadership.....not just in America but globally as well.....this could have been far less frightening of an issue and been handled in a way that could have saved countless lives that have been pointlessly lost.

The inaccuracy of the numbers is just a side effect of how poorly this whole thing has been handled

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:45:43 PM

Quote from: lonestar on December 30, 2020, 05:14:45 PM

Fuck Barry, that's insane.  :|

Yeah, that would be insane to fuck Barry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:03:57 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM

And....she's dead  ???    Less than 2 weeks from the onset of symptoms.  No one got to say goodbye, not even on zoom or the phone because she didn't have a smartphone and she had been in a medically induced coma.  un-fucking-real.  Two weeks ago she was calling it a "hoax conjured up by the liberal elite to get Trump out of office" and now she's dead.  She's my daughter-in-law's mother's aunt so her great aunt I guess.  She was only 63 - 6 years older than me. And now she's dead because she believed everything that came out of the mouth of a pathological liar. un-fucking-real.

Sorry about the loss...

I don't want to say too much. It's that, there is only so much you can do for a person. You can try all you can to get them to change their minds. But, I found, the older they are the harder it is to get them to change, their minds are already Set in the ways and nothing will change it. It's a reason why it's easier to convince a child than a wise old man.

But, as TAC said. They are an adult, with their own mind. And there are people who need that "Cult" leader to follow. I think, it has something to do with Guidance, and something to fall upon when you are lost. It's why I think, it's in that moment when people become easily manipulatable, and will accept the words of whomever is willing to listen, and treat those words as Gospel. In the bible and Religious terms, At that moment of vulnerability is when the devil will come and offer his hand.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 30, 2020, 05:29:06 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 04:14:39 PM

@ Gary... First, I'll jump on what Hunnus said - *I* believe that many many deaths are due to a combination of factors.  Would the Type-2 Diabetic have died from COVID if they didn't have diabetes?  Conversely, would they still be alive if not for having contracted COVID.  Attributing it to the last diagnosed illness is I think the right way to 'count' it.

Secondly I totally believe the numbers are over-inflated in some regards (such as the State of IL formal definition of a COVID death), and under-represented in other regards.  I'm sure there are some that have passed without a positive test, and that is under-representing.  For instance, my father died in hospital from what I believe was at first a blood clot (he'd had brutal leg pain and swelling that had hospitalized him) but the evening before he passed, he was having trouble breathing, and ultimately died from a heart attack.  It's quite possible he'd contracted COVID, and that's what pushed his body beyond its limits.

So... over counted in many cases - absolutely; under-counted in some cases - quite likely.

Yeah. I guess My point and what I’m driving at more is the issue of this virus being hijacked by politics. The media, politicians and all the organizations and people with influence have taken this pandemic and turned it into something even more vile than the disease itself.

If we had true leadership.....not just in America but globally as well.....this could have been far less frightening of an issue and been handled in a way that could have saved countless lives that have been pointlessly lost.

The inaccuracy of the numbers is just a side effect of how poorly this whole thing has been handled

They used it for their own means. And that alone is damn sinister. Like what happened to Armenia. That's it too. Our leaders are not real leaders. They are the very definition of corruption.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 30, 2020, 08:18:19 PM

There are people saying that the numbers aren't 100% accurate.  A lot of the people who died had some other condition, and ultimately died because it was exacerbated by Covid.  All those thousands of reported deaths, they're not all directly attributable to Covid-19.

To these people, I say "Does it fucking matter?"

In 2019, things were not like this.

In 2020, thousands of hospitals around the world were flooded with people, and thousands of people died.  Thousands of people continue to die, every fucking day.

Does it fucking matter that "technically, they didn't die of Covid; they died of something else"?  Do you think the families of the people who died give a flying fuck about how you would technically classify the cause of death?  So if you measured things differently, it's not really thousands of people dying every day, but more like hundreds, and that makes it okay?  No?  It's not okay?  Then we agree that it's not the exact number that matters, is it?  It's the fucking fact that it's happening at all, and people still don't fucking get it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 08:23:52 PM

Right on, O!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:41:37 PM

Quote from: Orbert on December 30, 2020, 08:18:19 PM

There are people saying that the numbers aren't 100% accurate.  A lot of the people who died had some other condition, and ultimately died because it was exacerbated by Covid.  All those thousands of reported deaths, they're not all directly attributable to Covid-19.

To these people, I say "Does it fucking matter?"

In 2019, things were not like this.

In 2020, thousands of hospitals around the world were flooded with people, and thousands of people died.  Thousands of people continue to die, every fucking day.

Does it fucking matter that "technically, they didn't die of Covid; they died of something else"?  Do you think the families of the people who died give a flying fuck about how you would technically classify the cause of death?  So if you measured things differently, it's not really thousands of people dying every day, but more like hundreds, and that makes it okay?  No?  It's not okay?  Then we agree that it's not the exact number that matters, is it?  It's the fucking fact that it's happening at all, and people still don't fucking get it.

Exactly.

And is why I am asking. What has caused us to be this susceptible to Covid? Meaning, It only took a virus like this to wipe out this many people. Why is that? If it's due to our health, why didn't our leaders do everything to make sure we didn't get those underlying conditions, so that we could've survived this virus better? But then, would the people have done what the leaders would have told them to do, for their safety and health? Is it really up to our leaders to make us healthy, or does that responsibility fall within the self?

We are very fortunate it wasn't worse than it actually is...and it could've been.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 30, 2020, 08:44:49 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:41:37 PM

We are very fortunate it wasn't worse than it actually is...and it could've been.

Based on this test run, the next one will indeed be far worse.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 08:56:40 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:41:37 PM

And is why I am asking. What has caused us to be this susceptible to Covid?

Why do you keep bringing up the question this way like humanity has done something to ourselves to cause this.  The direct answer is that it's nature man ... the dark side of nature, but it's still nature.

And indirect answer is that it's humanity's ignorance and arrogance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 31, 2020, 01:08:17 AM

Quote from: TAC on December 30, 2020, 08:44:49 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:41:37 PM

We are very fortunate it wasn't worse than it actually is...and it could've been.

Based on this test run, the next one will indeed be far worse.

Well, the counter intuitive thing is that a virus much more lethal would probably spread less more, because you can't hop all around the world if you kill the vast majority of the hosts.

This virus is the "perfect" combination because it's lethal, but not that much, and because it has a long incubation period. If it would have a 24 hours incubation period, it still would be difficult to trace in our interconnected society, with the symptoms showing between 5-15 days, how do you even find out how many people someone has been in touch with?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2020, 08:32:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 08:56:40 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:41:37 PM

And is why I am asking. What has caused us to be this susceptible to Covid?

Why do you keep bringing up the question this way like humanity has done something to ourselves to cause this.  The direct answer is that it's nature man ... the dark side of nature, but it's still nature.

And indirect answer is that it's humanity's ignorance and arrogance.

And why does it bother you that it's worded that way?

But OUR Health being so bad, is not caused by Nature. That is OUR choice we made as Humanity. Nature didn't tell us to put these Non-nutritious foods in us. We did that ourselves by taking these nutritious foods, Nature herself has in the wild, and processed them into foods that have no value whatsoever other than to make us feel full.

If you had watched the links I posted. They say, Our diets are why we are so susceptible to this virus.

So I turn, we are at fault. Maybe not individually, but wholly. It's the exact excuse for why Climate Change exists. But, is it just Nature as well. Which some think it is, and that Humanity just made it occur quicker than it should have.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 31, 2020, 08:39:09 AM

Our diets are why some people are more susceptible than others.  But so is advanced age.  And plenty of people without underlying conditions get the virus also, and even die from it.

It's another factor, but it isn't THE factor.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 31, 2020, 08:51:02 AM

Also pollution plays a big part. Northern Italy is quite industrialized and polluted and so from Turin to Venice the air quality is always bad. And most deaths occoured in Lombardy, which is a lot urbanized, industrialized and polluted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 31, 2020, 08:58:50 AM

My parents we big time smokers.  Dad 3 packs a day, Mom, 2 packs a day.  My friends told me my clothes smelled like cigarettes when I was a kid.  I have slight asthma now.  No surprise because of all the smoke I was around. So what does big industrial towns do to the people from that town ect.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 31, 2020, 09:11:08 AM

Asking people to all wear masks is completely unreasonable.

Instead, let's ask them to only eat the most healthy foods, regularly work out, not have any genetic problems whatsoever, have no negative influence from the environment, have access to top quality healthcare at all times, live completely stress free lives, have perfect mental health, and have the resources to maintain this lifestyle from birth to death. Because if we don't do that, then any illness is OUR fault for not doing that. And if we did do that, we'd never be sick ever.

This is why before processed foods/sugars etc even existed, no one died from illness or disease in massive numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on December 31, 2020, 09:23:06 AM

(and now with the CounterPoint)

I'm with Jingle.  It's nature.  Countless organisms of every type imaginable, and some you could never imagine, all interacting.  And once in a while, something evolves that can really wreak havoc upon our species.  Bubonic plague... typhus... hell, you could throw some veneral diseases in there as well.  Blights arise which wipe out certain trees and/or other plants.  Insects can suddenly appear and devastate hundreds of square miles of land in hours.  Nature.

I don't think we as humans did anything in particular to cause this.  I get it; something bad happens, you want to figure out why, so you can hopefully avoid similar situations in the future.  But sometimes there is no answer.  We didn't cause this to happen.  The better question to ask is if we could have been prepared for it, and possibly responded better.  And that's where things get political, so I'll stop now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 31, 2020, 09:28:49 AM

Man caused it though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on December 31, 2020, 09:29:06 AM

Quote from: Orbert on December 31, 2020, 09:23:06 AM

We didn't cause this to happen.

But we did decide (well, China did) that eating bats and pangolins and stacking them together in bad hygienic conditions was a smart idea.

On top of wild urbanization that eats away at nature's ecoystems.

I mean, everything is a cause of something else and maybe it would have happend anyway, but..... hey, the dwarves in Moria dug so deep until they found a Balrog, we poured cement all over the world (figuratively speaking of course) until we found a virus that was hidden away in the forest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on December 31, 2020, 09:50:29 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2020, 08:32:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 08:56:40 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:41:37 PM

And is why I am asking. What has caused us to be this susceptible to Covid?

Why do you keep bringing up the question this way like humanity has done something to ourselves to cause this.  The direct answer is that it's nature man ... the dark side of nature, but it's still nature.

And indirect answer is that it's humanity's ignorance and arrogance.

And why does it bother you that it's worded that way?

But OUR Health being so bad, is not caused by Nature. That is OUR choice we made as Humanity. Nature didn't tell us to put these Non-nutritious foods in us. We did that ourselves by taking these nutritious foods, Nature herself has in the wild, and processed them into foods that have no value whatsoever other than to make us feel full.

If you had watched the links I posted. They say, Our diets are why we are so susceptible to this virus.

So I turn, we are at fault. Maybe not individually, but wholly. It's the exact excuse for why Climate Change exists. But, is it just Nature as well. Which some think it is, and that Humanity just made it occur quicker than it should have.

Then say so directly, don't throw out a leading question attempting to get people to see things the way you see them.  That's what's "bothering" me about the way you phrase things... it seems you're asking a leading question to lead people to the conclusions *you* have made/believe.  I don't disagree some of the things you mention - by-and-large the (North) American diet is atrocious.  It has generally made people less healthy.

But as Adami correctly pointed out, pandemic inducing virus' (against humans or other living creatures) existed long before the development of food processing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 31, 2020, 09:51:12 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 09:28:49 AM

Man caused it though.

Man did not cause it.  We may have created the conditions that allowed it to jump from an animal to a human more readily than it would have otherwise, but SARS-CoV-2 is a mutation of a virus that jumped from an animal to a human.  That's not cause.  It's just not. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 31, 2020, 09:54:26 AM

Let's not get into semantics.  If men we more careful with what we eat, how we take care of such foods and what foods to eat, this would not have happened.  We can have preventative measures.  So yes, Man caused this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2020, 10:16:15 AM

All of these are excellent points that I agree with. I have to let you guys know. These questions are just questions. They are not reflective of my beliefs, although my beliefs reflect in the answer I have to those questions.

I am not saying, our Diet is the only cause and reason, of why we are susceptible. Of course, there are many aspects. But, what is the one thing we should prioritize...

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 31, 2020, 08:39:09 AM

Our diets are why some people are more susceptible than others.  But so is advanced age.  And plenty of people without underlying conditions get the virus also, and even die from it.

It's another factor, but it isn't THE factor.

Well yeah. We are not all designed the same. And some of us don't have these certain cells, or other abnormalities, that are entirely not our fault. And that is the entire thing of old age, according to the Dr. Li, stem cells do not regenerate as much as they do when we are young, they regenerate slower and less when we age, therefore causing ourselves to be more susceptible to illness as we age.

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 31, 2020, 08:51:02 AM

Also pollution plays a big part. Northern Italy is quite industrialized and polluted and so from Turin to Venice the air quality is always bad. And most deaths occoured in Lombardy, which is a lot urbanized, industrialized and polluted.

Yup. The way humanity has depleted the natural resources, and dug up, what we call, the blood of the earth, and smoked it and let it into the air, is pollution. And the oil spills in the sea...These are actually prophecies from some Native Tribes, and that's all I'll say about that...

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 08:58:50 AM

My parents we big time smokers.  Dad 3 packs a day, Mom, 2 packs a day.  My friends told me my clothes smelled like cigarettes when I was a kid.  I have slight asthma now.  No surprise because of all the smoke I was around. So what does big industrial towns do to the people from that town ect.....

Yup, and that is it's own form of pollution. Only because of all the stuff they put into the cigarettes. Natural Tobacco does not have these things in it. It can actually be very strong, and inhaling too much can cause you to get nauseous. I am now interested in knowing if those chemicals are what causes the increase asthma, besides the constant smoke in the lungs.

Quote from: Adami on December 31, 2020, 09:11:08 AM

Asking people to all wear masks is completely unreasonable.

Instead, let's ask them to only eat the most healthy foods, regularly work out, not have any genetic problems whatsoever, have no negative influence from the environment, have access to top quality healthcare at all times, live completely stress free lives, have perfect mental health, and have the resources to maintain this lifestyle from birth to death. Because if we don't do that, then any illness is OUR fault for not doing that. And if we did do that, we'd never be sick ever.

This is why before processed foods/sugars etc even existed, no one died from illness or disease in massive numbers.

I am not saying this at all...

I am saying, If these processed foods/sugars didn't exist. Would a lot of people have died? This is not taking into account the other ways people can die, like the examples above with Pollution.

But, do people take personal accountability for their actions?

Quote from: Orbert on December 31, 2020, 09:23:06 AM

(and now with the CounterPoint)

I'm with Jingle.  It's nature.  Countless organisms of every type imaginable, and some you could never imagine, all interacting.  And once in a while, something evolves that can really wreak havoc upon our species.  Bubonic plague... typhus... hell, you could throw some veneral diseases in there as well.  Blights arise which wipe out certain trees and/or other plants.  Insects can suddenly appear and devastate hundreds of square miles of land in hours.  Nature.

I don't think we as humans did anything in particular to cause this.  I get it; something bad happens, you want to figure out why, so you can hopefully avoid similar situations in the future.  But sometimes there is no answer.  We didn't cause this to happen.  The better question to ask is if we could have been prepared for it, and possibly responded better.  And that's where things get political, so I'll stop now.

Exactly. And it's why us Natives, lived simple lives with Nature. Not once, did we invent things to advance ourselves that caused harm to the Earth, or didn't benefit anything on the Planet, including plants, animals, minerals, the air, etc... We were humble people, happy with what was given to us on this Earth. This is how we were instructed to live. It's all in our emergence stories. We were living like this until our way of life got disrupted and were made to assimilate into anothers way of life. So now, we don't know if we would've advanced more or not.

For me, Our lives, this very moment in time, is an unbalanced life, and is detrimental to the Earth, that it is literally destroying it from the inside...


Think of it, like this...If it's Nature, that we all got sick and it was bound to happen anyways. Why didn't we do anything to help us ease the pain and hardships of the sickness?



I am only bringing this up, because people in general can only take being told what to do, and doing this for so long. People want to live a fulfilling life. I see, that tension building. Doesn't mean I am this way. But I do see it. What is going to happen is, these people do not want a quick band-aid. They want long-term solutions, for these problems that keep getting swept under the rug.

In a way, this is a turning point for Humanity.

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 31, 2020, 09:50:29 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2020, 08:32:34 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on December 30, 2020, 08:56:40 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 30, 2020, 08:41:37 PM

And is why I am asking. What has caused us to be this susceptible to Covid?

Why do you keep bringing up the question this way like humanity has done something to ourselves to cause this.  The direct answer is that it's nature man ... the dark side of nature, but it's still nature.

And indirect answer is that it's humanity's ignorance and arrogance.

And why does it bother you that it's worded that way?

But OUR Health being so bad, is not caused by Nature. That is OUR choice we made as Humanity. Nature didn't tell us to put these Non-nutritious foods in us. We did that ourselves by taking these nutritious foods, Nature herself has in the wild, and processed them into foods that have no value whatsoever other than to make us feel full.

If you had watched the links I posted. They say, Our diets are why we are so susceptible to this virus.

So I turn, we are at fault. Maybe not individually, but wholly. It's the exact excuse for why Climate Change exists. But, is it just Nature as well. Which some think it is, and that Humanity just made it occur quicker than it should have.

Then say so directly, don't throw out a leading question attempting to get people to see things the way you see them.  That's what's "bothering" me about the way you phrase things... it seems you're asking a leading question to lead people to the conclusions *you* have made/believe.  I don't disagree some of the things you mention - by-and-large the (North) American diet is atrocious.  It has generally made people less healthy.

But as Adami correctly pointed out, pandemic inducing virus' (against humans or other living creatures) existed long before the development of food processing.

I am sorry if it's coming out that way. That is not my intention to get you to come to the same conclusions as me. All I am doing, is presenting perspectives.

But, I will also say, These things I am saying, are entirely my beliefs, because they are our Ways of living. We lived our beliefs. The reason why we are told to not do some things, is because, one time someone actually did do that very thing and in turn something happened to them. In turn, as life continues, these incidents become stories and myths.

I guess, I like to see other people's responses first, before presenting my own. It helps me gather more information, and I can change things I may have overlooked myself, or completely disregarded altogether. It's why I pose these questions on this board, as well as Facebook. I am interested in others' perspectives on life, in general.

And if it's a bother to the majority of the board, where it's detrimental to the enjoyment of others, I will gladly stop posting these, and just post the usual, bull...  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 31, 2020, 10:22:01 AM

My position on the asthma may be swayed by the fact that my mom died of lung cancer and my dad has been battling it for 3 years. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 31, 2020, 10:48:37 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 09:54:26 AM

Let's not get into semantics.  If men we more careful with what we eat, how we take care of such foods and what foods to eat, this would not have happened.  We can have preventative measures.  So yes, Man caused this.

Semantics?  Nope.  Just facts, based on science.   What you eat is in no way, shape or form connected to this virus, what you're asserting here is literally nonsensical. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on December 31, 2020, 11:14:11 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on December 31, 2020, 10:48:37 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 09:54:26 AM

Let's not get into semantics.  If men we more careful with what we eat, how we take care of such foods and what foods to eat, this would not have happened.  We can have preventative measures.  So yes, Man caused this.

Semantics?  Nope.  Just facts, based on science.   What you eat is in no way, shape or form connected to this virus, what you're asserting here is literally nonsensical.

King eating a burger isn’t connected to this virus. This is what you’re saying.

The dudes in Wuhan eating that bat is connected to this virus, which I think is what king is saying.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on December 31, 2020, 11:21:32 AM

Correct sir.  I know what Barry is saying but it could have been avoided.  The human equation was the wick to the virus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 31, 2020, 11:30:23 AM

I am in complete agreement about the processed food/sugars we eat are pure poison! I agree, we as a nation need to have better diets and and exercise to boost our immune system.

But even if you were to have the best health on the planet doesn't mean you won't get the covids. Genetics plays a role too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on December 31, 2020, 03:45:36 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 05:02:32 PM

Sorry to hear about your old man Chad.

Yeah, same here. Didn't know that at all. :(

I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be stupid, but I didn't recall that either, and of course, Chad, you have my condolences.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on December 31, 2020, 07:34:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 31, 2020, 03:45:36 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 05:02:32 PM

Sorry to hear about your old man Chad.

Yeah, same here. Didn't know that at all. :(

I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be stupid, but I didn't recall that either, and of course, Chad, you have my condolences.

We're all stupid, as Chad did mention it.  Now I feel worse. :blush

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on December 31, 2020, 09:19:59 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 31, 2020, 07:34:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on December 31, 2020, 03:45:36 PM

Quote from: TAC on December 30, 2020, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: wolfking on December 30, 2020, 05:02:32 PM

Sorry to hear about your old man Chad.

Yeah, same here. Didn't know that at all. :(

I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be stupid, but I didn't recall that either, and of course, Chad, you have my condolences.

We're all stupid, as Chad did mention it.  Now I feel worse. :blush

I don't go into the chat thread much but he mentioned it in the exercise thread and I completely glossed over it. Fuck I feel bad too.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 01, 2021, 07:26:36 AM

Don't sweat it boys.  I'm not bothered, so none of you should be either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 01, 2021, 11:11:59 AM

I recall Chad mentioning it, but I think he also mentioned not having a close relationship and kept details short so I didn't really want to poke at that touchy subject, regardless, sorry for your loss. 2020 was a terrible year all around and you can find plenty of examples all around DTF of people's shit experiences this year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 01, 2021, 07:49:50 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 01, 2021, 06:42:17 PM

  What if elders don't want you to destroy their children's future? (https://youtu.be/F7rKx8-pTq8)

He discusses about the Elders, and how many elders also feel about this...How Elders see the risk of the virus as not as bad, as their children's future being worse. This quote from him tells it straight up...

Quote

"It's just been unbelievable how folks so easily say okay not only that you're killing grandma. Which to me is just such a preposterous non-argument, if you advocate against lockdowns or
mass mandates. Because we know that that's the most vulnerable population, but to act like all old people want that, goes to show how much people don't know about older people."

P.S...This video isn't long at all...

I brought this over from the Politics Of The Coronavirus Thread. Sure, he's just one guy's opinion, but he discussed a circumstance that was a very real thing in my wife's family. An Elder's assumption of Risk.


We usually host a big Christmas Eve gathering every year. Of course this year we didn't. My Mother In Law asked my wife if we could go down and and see her (she's 81 , and actually quite spry, and her husband is 83). So of course we went. It was basically for appetizers and a small dinner.

Earlier in the day, my sister in law, called both my MiL and my wife and went off screaming a swearing that they were "fucking nuts". My wife was fucking pissed, and my MiL was quite hurt.


Anyway, my wife was going to honor her mother's request. Her mother and her husband have their full faculties mentally, and it was their decision how they wanted to spend Christmas Eve. She knows where my wife works. She knows where I work, and she knows my son attends school. And she would rather see at least a part of her family than be alone.

The thing is, how many Christmases does she have left. She could drop dead of pneumonia in May, and my wife would forever regret not seeing her this last Christmas. I suspect my SiL will feel the same.


I know there's a few of you in this forum that are going to read this and think the way my SiL does, that we're "fucking nuts."
And you'd not be wrong. You can't argue with the position of safety.

But there was just no way my wife was going to deny her mother's request.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 01, 2021, 09:05:52 PM

Haven't watched that clip, but TAC, thank you for posting that. Many of us are facing tough decisions, and while there may seem to always be one "right" choice to make, I do not feel that is always the case.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on January 02, 2021, 12:05:09 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 01, 2021, 07:49:50 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 01, 2021, 06:42:17 PM

  What if elders don't want you to destroy their children's future? (https://youtu.be/F7rKx8-pTq8)

He discusses about the Elders, and how many elders also feel about this...How Elders see the risk of the virus as not as bad, as their children's future being worse. This quote from him tells it straight up...

Quote

"It's just been unbelievable how folks so easily say okay not only that you're killing grandma. Which to me is just such a preposterous non-argument, if you advocate against lockdowns or
mass mandates. Because we know that that's the most vulnerable population, but to act like all old people want that, goes to show how much people don't know about older people."

P.S...This video isn't long at all...

I brought this over from the Politics Of The Coronavirus Thread. Sure, he's just one guy's opinion, but he discussed a circumstance that was a very real thing in my wife's family. An Elder's assumption of Risk.


We usually host a big Christmas Eve gathering every year. Of course this year we didn't. My Mother In Law asked my wife if we could go down and and see her (she's 81 , and actually quite spry, and her husband is 83). So of course we went. It was basically for appetizers and a small dinner.

Earlier in the day, my sister in law, called both my MiL and my wife and went off screaming a swearing that they were "fucking nuts". My wife was fucking pissed, and my MiL was quite hurt.


Anyway, my wife was going to honor her mother's request. Her mother and her husband have their full faculties mentally, and it was their decision how they wanted to spend Christmas Eve. She knows where my wife works. She knows where I work, and she knows my son attends school. And she would rather see at least a part of her family than be alone.

The thing is, how many Christmases does she have left. She could drop dead of pneumonia in May, and my wife would forever regret not seeing her this last Christmas. I suspect my SiL will feel the same.


I know there's a few of you in this forum that are going to read this and think the way my SiL does, that we're "fucking nuts."
And you'd not be wrong. You can't argue with the position of safety.

But there was just no way my wife was going to deny her mother's request.

That's definitely a tough situation. I understand Young Rippa's point. I watched the whole video and I've watched some of his other videos. That being said, the elderly person who is willing to take that risk has to take into account the burden on the hospital and the family too. We're all going to die but whatever one's beliefs or non beliefs are, we don't want to see our loved ones die.

Maybe the elderly people should sign some waiver or whatever that they'll refuse any help and the family has to be on board with that. Personal responsibility and freedom are not really "free". Just my thoughts on this. I don't think there's a clear cut answer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2021, 03:14:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

uh, yeah, I can deny it because it's not true.  There is precisely ZERO "human error" involved in a virus jumping from an animal to a human.  I not gonna argue about it any more than I'm gonna argue about the wetness of water, sheesh

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 02, 2021, 04:36:16 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 01, 2021, 07:49:50 PM

I brought this over from the Politics Of The Coronavirus Thread. Sure, he's just one guy's opinion, but he discussed a circumstance that was a very real thing in my wife's family. An Elder's assumption of Risk.


We usually host a big Christmas Eve gathering every year. Of course this year we didn't. My Mother In Law asked my wife if we could go down and and see her (she's 81 , and actually quite spry, and her husband is 83). So of course we went. It was basically for appetizers and a small dinner.

Earlier in the day, my sister in law, called both my MiL and my wife and went off screaming a swearing that they were "fucking nuts". My wife was fucking pissed, and my MiL was quite hurt.


Anyway, my wife was going to honor her mother's request. Her mother and her husband have their full faculties mentally, and it was their decision how they wanted to spend Christmas Eve. She knows where my wife works. She knows where I work, and she knows my son attends school. And she would rather see at least a part of her family than be alone.

The thing is, how many Christmases does she have left. She could drop dead of pneumonia in May, and my wife would forever regret not seeing her this last Christmas. I suspect my SiL will feel the same.


I know there's a few of you in this forum that are going to read this and think the way my SiL does, that we're "fucking nuts."
And you'd not be wrong. You can't argue with the position of safety.

But there was just no way my wife was going to deny her mother's request.

Totally get where you're coming from, and we were kinda the same.  Though our mothers are only 74 (mine) and 68 (mrs.jingle's), we man arrangements to see them each for about 90 minutes over the holidays.  It was the best we would/could do to balance safety (as our own as theirs) along with mental and social health.  As Herrick said, it's not just about living/dying, but the burdens that would come with a COVID illness that needs to be considered - ie, getting sick, and dying alone.  What if JUST one of your in-laws contracted it, and then the other has to sit at home alone and wait for the outcome.  Hopefully that went into their calculus (to steal a Stadler-ism) as well.  That would be a rather heavy burden for everyone to carry.  What if you contracted it?  What if your son did?

These are all the things that we took into consideration to minimize the risk to jingle.family - everyone involved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 02, 2021, 07:14:42 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2021, 03:14:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

uh, yeah, I can deny it because it's not true.  There is precisely ZERO "human error" involved in a virus jumping from an animal to a human.  I not gonna argue about it any more than I'm gonna argue about the wetness of water, sheesh

If a human doesn't eat food they shouldn't then this doesn't happen. Not hard to figure out. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 02, 2021, 08:39:36 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2021, 03:14:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

uh, yeah, I can deny it because it's not true.  There is precisely ZERO "human error" involved in a virus jumping from an animal to a human.  I not gonna argue about it any more than I'm gonna argue about the wetness of water, sheesh

The errors are the circumstances, such as:

1) Rapid urbanization. Pour cement over everything that is nature affects and changes ecosystems.
2) Scarce hygienic conditions
3) Overpopiulation
4) Thinking that everything you find in the jungle and that once was alive is a good meal
5) Keeping these once-alive-things-found-in-the-jungle all crammed together in wet markets with questionable hygienic conditions

So, the humans might have not invented the bear. But they went looking for it and they poke it. Repeatedly. More than once (see the SARS in 2002-3 - it was a coronavirus, same origin).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 02, 2021, 08:43:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 02, 2021, 04:36:16 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 01, 2021, 07:49:50 PM

I brought this over from the Politics Of The Coronavirus Thread. Sure, he's just one guy's opinion, but he discussed a circumstance that was a very real thing in my wife's family. An Elder's assumption of Risk.


We usually host a big Christmas Eve gathering every year. Of course this year we didn't. My Mother In Law asked my wife if we could go down and and see her (she's 81 , and actually quite spry, and her husband is 83). So of course we went. It was basically for appetizers and a small dinner.

Earlier in the day, my sister in law, called both my MiL and my wife and went off screaming a swearing that they were "fucking nuts". My wife was fucking pissed, and my MiL was quite hurt.


Anyway, my wife was going to honor her mother's request. Her mother and her husband have their full faculties mentally, and it was their decision how they wanted to spend Christmas Eve. She knows where my wife works. She knows where I work, and she knows my son attends school. And she would rather see at least a part of her family than be alone.

The thing is, how many Christmases does she have left. She could drop dead of pneumonia in May, and my wife would forever regret not seeing her this last Christmas. I suspect my SiL will feel the same.


I know there's a few of you in this forum that are going to read this and think the way my SiL does, that we're "fucking nuts."
And you'd not be wrong. You can't argue with the position of safety.

But there was just no way my wife was going to deny her mother's request.

Totally get where you're coming from, and we were kinda the same.  Though our mothers are only 74 (mine) and 68 (mrs.jingle's), we man arrangements to see them each for about 90 minutes over the holidays.  It was the best we would/could do to balance safety (as our own as theirs) along with mental and social health.  As Herrick said, it's not just about living/dying, but the burdens that would come with a COVID illness that needs to be considered - ie, getting sick, and dying alone.  What if JUST one of your in-laws contracted it, and then the other has to sit at home alone and wait for the outcome.  Hopefully that went into their calculus (to steal a Stadler-ism) as well.  That would be a rather heavy burden for everyone to carry.  What if you contracted it?  What if your son did?

These are all the things that we took into consideration to minimize the risk to jingle.family - everyone involved.

If it matters, I'm with you both. I'm experiencing this myself right now, in two families (mine and my step-kids).   To think that every family (and family member) is going to contemplate every single variable and value them in the exact same priority every time is, I think, denying reality.   The funny thing is, nowhere in TAC's example was there any discussion of HOW that meeting took place.   I know for me, I have a trip to Florida in my (near) future to see my parents - mom is 83, dad is 81.   Mom was diagnosed about a month ago with Alzheimer's, and dad is capable, so it seems, but cracks are coming to the surface.  He's handicapped, so the care of my mom is going to be an increasing burden, and they're of the generation that "you go to a home to die".   When I go to FLA, I stay with them; they have a guest room and it's nice to just hang; if I go now, I will get a hotel, and will only visit.   Their place is small, but they have a back lanai that would allow for social distancing, and I would probably, subtlely, make sure there's always a sort of distance between us.   Both my parents are the highest risk possible (my dad's handicap is an autoimmune issue; even common colds decimate him) and they are scared of this "COVID thing", but EVERY HUMAN has some blinder, some issue where the reality and the theory don't precisely line up.

In my step kids' example, their grandmother's primary caregiver died, and she had to move in with her son (my step kids' dad). They already had COVID in the house (his new wife) and she got it and passed.  But while it SEEMS on it's face to be a ridiculous situation, and I'm predisposed to criticizing the guy to begin with, in the cold light of day, what was he going to do?  He doesn't have a mansion, he's not made of cash, and she has to live SOMEWHERE.  I feel bad for the guy - losing both parents in the span of a month - and I can't imagine that was anyone's first choice.  They supposedly did the distancing thing as best they could, supposedly they wore masks in the house when they couldn't distance, but who knows? 

As a side note, keying on something Herrick mentioned, if we're now going to hold our elderly to account for considering the "burdens" on society for every decision they make, then we ought to have a hard conversations with the rest of the population RIGHT NOW on:
- diet soda
- cigarettes
- fast food
- alcohol and marijuana
- social media
- fossil fuels

That's just the most obvious topics; I could go on until live concerts resume with things that we as a society take for granted (if not encourage) that have an un-considered burden on society.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 02, 2021, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: Herrick on January 02, 2021, 12:05:09 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 01, 2021, 07:49:50 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 01, 2021, 06:42:17 PM

  What if elders don't want you to destroy their children's future? (https://youtu.be/F7rKx8-pTq8)

He discusses about the Elders, and how many elders also feel about this...How Elders see the risk of the virus as not as bad, as their children's future being worse. This quote from him tells it straight up...

Quote

"It's just been unbelievable how folks so easily say okay not only that you're killing grandma. Which to me is just such a preposterous non-argument, if you advocate against lockdowns or
mass mandates. Because we know that that's the most vulnerable population, but to act like all old people want that, goes to show how much people don't know about older people."

P.S...This video isn't long at all...

I brought this over from the Politics Of The Coronavirus Thread. Sure, he's just one guy's opinion, but he discussed a circumstance that was a very real thing in my wife's family. An Elder's assumption of Risk.


We usually host a big Christmas Eve gathering every year. Of course this year we didn't. My Mother In Law asked my wife if we could go down and and see her (she's 81 , and actually quite spry, and her husband is 83). So of course we went. It was basically for appetizers and a small dinner.

Earlier in the day, my sister in law, called both my MiL and my wife and went off screaming a swearing that they were "fucking nuts". My wife was fucking pissed, and my MiL was quite hurt.


Anyway, my wife was going to honor her mother's request. Her mother and her husband have their full faculties mentally, and it was their decision how they wanted to spend Christmas Eve. She knows where my wife works. She knows where I work, and she knows my son attends school. And she would rather see at least a part of her family than be alone.

The thing is, how many Christmases does she have left. She could drop dead of pneumonia in May, and my wife would forever regret not seeing her this last Christmas. I suspect my SiL will feel the same.


I know there's a few of you in this forum that are going to read this and think the way my SiL does, that we're "fucking nuts."
And you'd not be wrong. You can't argue with the position of safety.

But there was just no way my wife was going to deny her mother's request.

That's definitely a tough situation. I understand Young Rippa's point. I watched the whole video and I've watched some of his other videos. That being said, the elderly person who is willing to take that risk has to take into account the burden on the hospital and the family too. We're all going to die but whatever one's beliefs or non beliefs are, we don't want to see our loved ones die.

Maybe the elderly people should sign some waiver or whatever that they'll refuse any help and the family has to be on board with that. Personal responsibility and freedom are not really "free". Just my thoughts on this. I don't think there's a clear cut answer.

You know what we (natives) do...We don't even send our Elders to Nursing Homes. Most of our elders live at home, and some are living with their children, usually one member of the family is living with the elder to take care of them. It's why we are struggling with this virus and it's also why it's hitting harder. Because those elders are getting sick. And also, some still do duties, like haul water, tend their sheep, and cook, and all that (I'm only using Navajos as reference, I am not Navajo, they are a different tribe than mine). They are not helpless people, and some are especially stubborn that even if you try and help, they do not want the help. Some actually do the work because they can't just sit and do nothing.

But now, since most native peoples are working now, they are finding they don't have time for both job and elder and in turn, they make sacrifices and have to find a way to balance both. Some actually quit altogether to take care of their elder parent.

What is happening now with Nursing Homes. Is just the consequence of not taking the time, and setting the time away to take care of your elder. Instead of that, they are tossed in a facility with other Elders, and nurses whom monitor them, and basically do the responsibility and job that you, the child, should be doing. I consider it Hiring a nanny for old people.

It's also, why our spiritual leaders have told us. To take care of your children, or else they'll just toss you in a home and forget all about you, while you die alone. Or back in the day, will leave you at home alone and no one in the community will bother helping, because you are a mean old elder.


And I can only say, I wish for the best, to those that just can't take that time to care for their loved ones. And this is what I consider an effect of the society today. It's even seeped into childcare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 02, 2021, 09:35:24 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 02, 2021, 09:04:34 AM

What is happening now with Nursing Homes. Is just the consequence of not taking the time, and setting the time away to take care of your elder. Instead of that, they are tossed in a facility with other Elders, and nurses whom monitor them, and basically do the responsibility and job that you, the child, should be doing. I consider it Hiring a nanny for old people.

Usually I'm with you on things, and I like the way you approach most things.   I will also immediately cop to being a little sensitive and defensive about this, but... I would never consider getting help for my parents "tossing them in a facility".   I get that life is a box of choices, and not all of them are good or mutually conducive, but I'm in that boat now.  I live in CT, my parents live in Florida, 1400 miles away.   My brother is about 125 miles away from them, but he's a police officer, single, and has odd hours.   I am married, and have two families to consider, including a stepgrandson that lives 15 miles away, and a stepson who is on the spectrum and needs care/programs beyond the average student.  Both my wife's parents need, if not care, then at least someone nearby in case of emergency.

I would love nothing more than to have my parents come live with me.  They can't function in Connecticut with the seasons (my dad is physically handicapped; that's why they moved to Florida).  I can move, of course; I have the will and the resources, but something has to give.   Now my wife's parents are at a disadvantage.  Given the nature of my parents' afflictions, a living facility is the best option (if not the cheapest).   They can administer medication; they can effect physical therapy; they have resources if there is an emergency situation (my mom spent five days in the hospital not long ago with kidney issues and dehydration). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on January 02, 2021, 10:21:45 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 02, 2021, 07:14:42 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2021, 03:14:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

uh, yeah, I can deny it because it's not true.  There is precisely ZERO "human error" involved in a virus jumping from an animal to a human.  I not gonna argue about it any more than I'm gonna argue about the wetness of water, sheesh

If a human doesn't eat food they shouldn't then this doesn't happen. Not hard to figure out. 

What is "food they shouldn't" eat?  Bats and pangolins are mammals.  People eat them for food.  Cows and pigs are mammals.  People eat them for food.  There are people who are as repulsed by the idea of eating cow as you apparently are by the idea of eating bat.

People live in other places than The United States of America.  Believe it or not, people live all over the world!  And they eat what is available where they live.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 02, 2021, 11:24:55 AM

Quote from: Orbert on January 02, 2021, 10:21:45 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 02, 2021, 07:14:42 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2021, 03:14:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

uh, yeah, I can deny it because it's not true.  There is precisely ZERO "human error" involved in a virus jumping from an animal to a human.  I not gonna argue about it any more than I'm gonna argue about the wetness of water, sheesh

If a human doesn't eat food they shouldn't then this doesn't happen. Not hard to figure out. 

What is "food they shouldn't" eat?  Bats and pangolins are mammals.  People eat them for food.  Cows and pigs are mammals.  People eat them for food.  There are people who are as repulsed by the idea of eating cow as you apparently are by the idea of eating bat.

People live in other places than The United States of America.  Believe it or not, people live all over the world!  And they eat what is available where they live.

I don't think it's as absolute as you make it. The beef and pork industries are highly regulated here in the States but China doesn't regulate those wet markets which is (they think) where the virus jumped. And I'm not sure we know if it was ingestion of the animals or more the fact that the live animals were pissing and shitting all over the place which also spreads viruses.

The main point is there is NO reason to keep these markets open much less eating what pangaloins or bats. China's economy is robust and they have a high-speed rail system that is able to transport thousands of workers everyday from small provinces all across China.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 02, 2021, 11:39:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 02, 2021, 09:35:24 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 02, 2021, 09:04:34 AM

What is happening now with Nursing Homes. Is just the consequence of not taking the time, and setting the time away to take care of your elder. Instead of that, they are tossed in a facility with other Elders, and nurses whom monitor them, and basically do the responsibility and job that you, the child, should be doing. I consider it Hiring a nanny for old people.

Usually I'm with you on things, and I like the way you approach most things.   I will also immediately cop to being a little sensitive and defensive about this, but... I would never consider getting help for my parents "tossing them in a facility".   I get that life is a box of choices, and not all of them are good or mutually conducive, but I'm in that boat now.  I live in CT, my parents live in Florida, 1400 miles away.   My brother is about 125 miles away from them, but he's a police officer, single, and has odd hours.   I am married, and have two families to consider, including a stepgrandson that lives 15 miles away, and a stepson who is on the spectrum and needs care/programs beyond the average student.  Both my wife's parents need, if not care, then at least someone nearby in case of emergency.

I would love nothing more than to have my parents come live with me.  They can't function in Connecticut with the seasons (my dad is physically handicapped; that's why they moved to Florida).  I can move, of course; I have the will and the resources, but something has to give.   Now my wife's parents are at a disadvantage.  Given the nature of my parents' afflictions, a living facility is the best option (if not the cheapest).   They can administer medication; they can effect physical therapy; they have resources if there is an emergency situation (my mom spent five days in the hospital not long ago with kidney issues and dehydration).

I get that is a harsh way to say it. That is why I also said this...

Quote

I wish for the best, to those that just can't take that time to care for their loved ones.

I understand people, just can't do that. I understand not everyone just tosses their elders in the nursing homes. And I get that it's not an easy solution. It's why I say it's all personal.

It's also why, I attribute "Tossing the elders into nursing homes" to how society has become now in this present time. The family structure has devolved, more into an individualistic approach. And that includes community...But I digress on this.

It's also why, Nursing Home abuse is a really sad situation altogether. And should be a cause to take into consideration, the mental health of the Nursing Home Caretaker, so they won't be taking their problems out on the elder. Whom the family, and the elder, is trusting their life and care with.

Nothing is perfect in the world. But, people do act like things are, and that is living in a dream, and not in reality.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 02, 2021, 11:51:20 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on January 02, 2021, 11:24:55 AM

Quote from: Orbert on January 02, 2021, 10:21:45 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 02, 2021, 07:14:42 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2021, 03:14:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

uh, yeah, I can deny it because it's not true.  There is precisely ZERO "human error" involved in a virus jumping from an animal to a human.  I not gonna argue about it any more than I'm gonna argue about the wetness of water, sheesh

If a human doesn't eat food they shouldn't then this doesn't happen. Not hard to figure out. 

What is "food they shouldn't" eat?  Bats and pangolins are mammals.  People eat them for food.  Cows and pigs are mammals.  People eat them for food.  There are people who are as repulsed by the idea of eating cow as you apparently are by the idea of eating bat.

People live in other places than The United States of America.  Believe it or not, people live all over the world!  And they eat what is available where they live.

I don't think it's as absolute as you make it. The beef and pork industries are highly regulated here in the States but China doesn't regulate those wet markets which is (they think) where the virus jumped. And I'm not sure we know if it was ingestion of the animals or more the fact that the live animals were pissing and shitting all over the place which also spreads viruses.

The main point is there is NO reason to keep these markets open much less eating what pangaloins or bats. China's economy is robust and they have a high-speed rail system that is able to transport thousands of workers everyday from small provinces all across China.

Yeah, the unsanitary conditions, is a big concern about the Wet Markets. There's cross-contamination, food not being stored right, and therefore, is sitting there rotting and getting spoiled, and even being sold that way.

And those Wet Markets, I feel, are a consequence of people not being self-reliant, and relying on the other for foods. This is a great example of where being reliant on the other can lead to. These people rely on these Wet Markets for food, and that is just unfortunate.

I wish it were just that easy, to just go and expect china to say. "You know, you're right. Just what am I doing...." but that won't happen, unless the people of china itself, does something about it.

That shows, just how sinister, corrupt, their government is. They don't care about the people, or more so the poor people, the people they feel are not "part of their society", they are left to their own self-reliance. Which in turn, makes them reliant on them, if they can't be self-reliant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 02, 2021, 11:56:29 AM

Let's also not forget that wet markets are not just a quirky and wacky tradition that can be dropped with just some goodwill, like you decide to quit smoking. There's a big industry behind it and it gives job to millions of people. I have read how they came about and I'm blurry on the details but basically there was a big crisis in the '70s and wet markets came to be as a mean to get more people to work and give them something to eat as well (This is the very basic gist of it, there's more to that of course). It's not something you can shut down overnight without creating chaos, unemployment and ruin many people's lives.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on January 02, 2021, 12:01:54 PM

I agree that unhygienic (nonhygienic?) conditions, poor safely guidelines and even poorer enforcement all played a part.  I just object to the concept that there are foods we "should" eat and foods we "shouldn't" eat.  Different people eat different things.  Westerners are all "Well, in China they eat cats and dogs and bats and stuff, so no wonder they get sick."  Fuck that, and fuck anyone who says it.  They get sick because the food they eat is contaminated, not because the food is something you might keep for a pet or just find gross to eat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 02, 2021, 12:28:25 PM

Quote from: Orbert on January 02, 2021, 12:01:54 PM

I agree that unhygienic (nonhygienic?) conditions, poor safely guidelines and even poorer enforcement all played a part.  I just object to the concept that there are foods we "should" eat and foods we "shouldn't" eat.  Different people eat different things.  Westerners are all "Well, in China they eat cats and dogs and bats and stuff, so no wonder they get sick."  Fuck that, and fuck anyone who says it.  They get sick because the food they eat is contaminated, not because the food is something you might keep for a pet or just find gross to eat.

I agree with you about those people whom are all "China eats everything....no wonder they're sick".....A lot of people in America ate certain animals as well, because they needed food during The Great Depression, I wonder what they would say and do if you told them, you had no choice but to eat that rat or bug during those times.

There are foods we should be eating though. And foods we shouldn't be eating. First of all, what are foods? Things we eat to get the nutrition and chemicals we need to basically live. Certain foods, contain certain chemicals. Oranges contain Vitamin C. Legumes, are a great source of Protein. These are the foods that we should eat, as they benefit our health, and our life. These are things we need to survive. There are foods that have chemicals that we don't really need, and those are chemicals that our body doesn't like and in turn, our bodies fight these chemicals. It's how people can be allergic to certain foods, its their bodies reacting to the chemicals of that food. And also, why some foods are labeled as poisonous. That is the interesting part about the body and it's functions, as some people are not born with that chemical response and their bodies treat it as foreign.

There are also a lot of reasons, why those people across the world, eat the things they do. Those foods may not have even been known as "Traditional" food until time passed on, and it was accepted as "Traditional", an example would be us Natives and "Frybread".

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 02, 2021, 11:56:29 AM

Let's also not forget that wet markets are not just a quirky and wacky tradition that can be dropped with just some goodwill, like you decide to quit smoking. There's a big industry behind it and it gives job to millions of people. I have read how they came about and I'm blurry on the details but basically there was a big crisis in the '70s and wet markets came to be as a mean to get more people to work and give them something to eat as well (This is the very basic gist of it, there's more to that of course). It's not something you can shut down overnight without creating chaos, unemployment and ruin many people's lives.

That's what I term the Job Excuse. Yes, of course it creates jobs. But that doesn't mean they are jobs that are beneficial to the people and the earth. Those "Job" creators, use the ploy of food, shelter, and safety, to get people to do these unbeneficial things, that are beneficial only to the Job Creator.

And that has caused it, to boom into the industry it is today, and the solution for it, is not as simple as some think it is. Sometimes, I think people do not really know and understand how the process for a lot of things work. And that you just can't expect the change to happen overnight, or more realistically to happen within a year. It's why we are barely seeing the effect of the changes happening in our world right now, that were made 100 years ago. And even at that, some things are still having trouble changing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 02, 2021, 01:02:30 PM

Umm - if anyone can effect change quickly, it's China so yes - it IS as easy as one would think. China could shutdown those markets in a heartbeat.

Remember, they are the ones that built at warp speed the high speed rail system. They built that main building for the Olympics at warp speed and even brought pollution under control at amazing speed (granted that this was temporary for the Olympics) but they still accomplished it. Now - some of their methods certainly can be questioned, but........

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 02, 2021, 02:01:20 PM

Quote from: Orbert on January 02, 2021, 10:21:45 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 02, 2021, 07:14:42 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2021, 03:14:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on December 31, 2020, 11:05:27 AM

I  am asserting that without human error, this virus would never metamorphose.  You cannot deny that.

uh, yeah, I can deny it because it's not true.  There is precisely ZERO "human error" involved in a virus jumping from an animal to a human.  I not gonna argue about it any more than I'm gonna argue about the wetness of water, sheesh

If a human doesn't eat food they shouldn't then this doesn't happen. Not hard to figure out. 

What is "food they shouldn't" eat?  Bats and pangolins are mammals.  People eat them for food.  Cows and pigs are mammals.  People eat them for food.  There are people who are as repulsed by the idea of eating cow as you apparently are by the idea of eating bat.

People live in other places than The United States of America.  Believe it or not, people live all over the world!  And they eat what is available where they live.

Tainted meat.   Doesn't matter what animal but knowing where to get it.  Yes, I know with 3rd world countries that's hard but we are talking China here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 03, 2021, 06:05:11 AM

So, I was chatting with my son yesterday and it seems my grandkids passed the virus without any problems at all, they were only sick for a couple of days.  Josh (my son) and Victoria (my daughter in law) are both feeling like shit, but they're managing and so far neither of them has felt sick enough that they thought they should go to the doctor.  In a way, I'm glad they got it and appear to be getting past it, at least they'll have some immunity for a period of time.  Who knows how long that will last, but I'm trying to see the glass as half full.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 06:54:24 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 03, 2021, 06:05:11 AM

So, I was chatting with my son yesterday and it seems my grandkids passed the virus without any problems at all, they were only sick for a couple of days.  Josh (my son) and Victoria (my daughter in law) are both feeling like shit, but they're managing and so far neither of them has felt sick enough that they thought they should go to the doctor.  In a way, I'm glad they got it and appear to be getting past it, at least they'll have some immunity for a period of time.  Who knows how long that will last, but I'm trying to see the glass as half full.

Glad and relieve to hear that, Barry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 03, 2021, 08:43:14 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 02, 2021, 12:28:25 PM

Quote from: Orbert on January 02, 2021, 12:01:54 PM

I agree that unhygienic (nonhygienic?) conditions, poor safely guidelines and even poorer enforcement all played a part.  I just object to the concept that there are foods we "should" eat and foods we "shouldn't" eat.  Different people eat different things.  Westerners are all "Well, in China they eat cats and dogs and bats and stuff, so no wonder they get sick."  Fuck that, and fuck anyone who says it.  They get sick because the food they eat is contaminated, not because the food is something you might keep for a pet or just find gross to eat.

I agree with you about those people whom are all "China eats everything....no wonder they're sick".....A lot of people in America ate certain animals as well, because they needed food during The Great Depression, I wonder what they would say and do if you told them, you had no choice but to eat that rat or bug during those times.

There are foods we should be eating though. And foods we shouldn't be eating. First of all, what are foods? Things we eat to get the nutrition and chemicals we need to basically live. Certain foods, contain certain chemicals. Oranges contain Vitamin C. Legumes, are a great source of Protein. These are the foods that we should eat, as they benefit our health, and our life. These are things we need to survive. There are foods that have chemicals that we don't really need, and those are chemicals that our body doesn't like and in turn, our bodies fight these chemicals. It's how people can be allergic to certain foods, its their bodies reacting to the chemicals of that food. And also, why some foods are labeled as poisonous. That is the interesting part about the body and it's functions, as some people are not born with that chemical response and their bodies treat it as foreign.

There are also a lot of reasons, why those people across the world, eat the things they do. Those foods may not have even been known as "Traditional" food until time passed on, and it was accepted as "Traditional", an example would be us Natives and "Frybread".

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 02, 2021, 11:56:29 AM

Let's also not forget that wet markets are not just a quirky and wacky tradition that can be dropped with just some goodwill, like you decide to quit smoking. There's a big industry behind it and it gives job to millions of people. I have read how they came about and I'm blurry on the details but basically there was a big crisis in the '70s and wet markets came to be as a mean to get more people to work and give them something to eat as well (This is the very basic gist of it, there's more to that of course). It's not something you can shut down overnight without creating chaos, unemployment and ruin many people's lives.

That's what I term the Job Excuse. Yes, of course it creates jobs. But that doesn't mean they are jobs that are beneficial to the people and the earth. Those "Job" creators, use the ploy of food, shelter, and safety, to get people to do these unbeneficial things, that are beneficial only to the Job Creator.

And that has caused it, to boom into the industry it is today, and the solution for it, is not as simple as some think it is. Sometimes, I think people do not really know and understand how the process for a lot of things work. And that you just can't expect the change to happen overnight, or more realistically to happen within a year. It's why we are barely seeing the effect of the changes happening in our world right now, that were made 100 years ago. And even at that, some things are still having trouble changing.

You know, Ben, I love your posts.  I read them eagerly, and I almost always like the spirit, if not the letter.    It strikes me on this subject, though, that while I like the idea, it's one of those ideas that either needs to be full-on or not.  It's like "capitalism" versus "communism"; the problem isn't with either system.  If we did them full-on, with full governmental and societal buy-in and commitment, either system could work.  The problem is in the interfaces.   They don't work well together.  Same with some of the things you're suggesting.   

We have wet markets, in the widely accepted meaning of the term, even here in the States.  I can go to what would be, in China, considered a wet market in Philly, or New York, or even in a city as small as New Britain, CT.   The vast majority of them are legit purveyors of fresh produce and widely accepted sources of meat and poultry products.   It's like anything else; there will ALWAYS be people that cut corners, whether it's for money, or laziness, or lack of knowledge.   China has tried, repeatedly, to ban the more unsavory practices - including both the types of animals that are sold at the markets, and the hygienic properties of the process for selling them - and it's only served to drive the business underground.  It's estimated to be an almost $75 BILLION dollar industry.   Much like marijuana here, the idea has been to capitalize on that and not let it languish in grey- or black-market territory. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2021, 08:43:53 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 03, 2021, 06:05:11 AM

So, I was chatting with my son yesterday and it seems my grandkids passed the virus without any problems at all, they were only sick for a couple of days.  Josh (my son) and Victoria (my daughter in law) are both feeling like shit, but they're managing and so far neither of them has felt sick enough that they thought they should go to the doctor.  In a way, I'm glad they got it and appear to be getting past it, at least they'll have some immunity for a period of time.  Who knows how long that will last, but I'm trying to see the glass as half full.

That's how a lot of people are when getting this. The ones that end up in the hospital, have really severe symptoms...or just can't take the pain.

I know darn well, there are people who are dealing with this on their own and letting it pass. Some people have a stronger threshold of pain than others, and will stick it out, rather than going to the hospital, and then you have those that will go just for a paper cut.

I am glad, your family didn't have it severely enough to end up in the hospital.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 03, 2021, 08:46:23 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 03, 2021, 06:05:11 AM

So, I was chatting with my son yesterday and it seems my grandkids passed the virus without any problems at all, they were only sick for a couple of days.  Josh (my son) and Victoria (my daughter in law) are both feeling like shit, but they're managing and so far neither of them has felt sick enough that they thought they should go to the doctor.  In a way, I'm glad they got it and appear to be getting past it, at least they'll have some immunity for a period of time.  Who knows how long that will last, but I'm trying to see the glass as half full.

Yes, ultimately this is good news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on January 03, 2021, 09:00:26 AM

My best friend's husband has it, and is having a pretty rough go at it. No hospitalization yet, but his fever has been fucking brutal for almost a week now, and he's been bedridden and basically worthless. He's 40 and in stellar health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 03, 2021, 09:04:43 AM

Girlfriend is thinking she has it and is getting tested tomorrow.

I'm feeling fine, but if she has it then I have it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 10:38:21 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 03, 2021, 09:04:43 AM

Girlfriend is thinking she has it and is getting tested tomorrow.

I'm feeling fine, but if she has it then I have it.

Fuck. @ Ben... I don't think it's a pain threshold thing - it's not like a broken toe.  I'm sure different people have different tolerance levels as to when they feel they need medical attention, but the amount of minimizing you often post with is getting tiresome.  The people dealing with it on their own (see Gary and Ruslan) have milder cases than those that seek medical attention.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on January 03, 2021, 10:56:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 10:38:21 AM

Fuck. @ Ben... I don't think it's a pain threshold thing - it's not like a broken toe.  I'm sure different people have different tolerance levels as to when they feel they need medical attention, but the amount of minimizing you often post with is getting tiresome. 

(https://media.giphy.com/media/5xtDarmwsuR9sDRObyU/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2021, 12:02:30 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 10:38:21 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 03, 2021, 09:04:43 AM

Girlfriend is thinking she has it and is getting tested tomorrow.

I'm feeling fine, but if she has it then I have it.

Fuck. @ Ben... I don't think it's a pain threshold thing - it's not like a broken toe.  I'm sure different people have different tolerance levels as to when they feel they need medical attention, but the amount of minimizing you often post with is getting tiresome.  The people dealing with it on their own (see Gary and Ruslan) have milder cases than those that seek medical attention.

Alright. I'll stop posting here on this thread then. I don't really have anything other to say. I said my perspective, and my thoughts on how I feel about this virus. Many others have their own feelings as well, and I feel, we all need to take that into consideration. If my Grandma, wants me to go over and see her and would rather have seen me and died catching it, then dying without seeing me because I didn't want her to get sick, yet she did anyway. I would rather have gone and seen her, and risked giving her that covid, as she herself has felt that risk as less than not hugging and seeing her child, at least one last time. I just have a problem with this aspect of how everyone is saying "protect the elders" and disregarding how they may feel about it.

That is what is personal, and that alone is why there is no solution and way we handle this will please everybody.

I don't wish sickness on anyone. And don't want sickness myself either. But, I know and understand, sicknesses are here to stay. We may combat this virus, but then later on down the road, there could be another one that is way, way, way worse than this. And all I can hope for is, we learn and can be prepared for when that does happen. And also, there could even be another medical breakthrough, that is unthinkable of today. That is just how science works.

As I said, it sucks that a lot of people are dying from this.

So...Be safe, and I'll do my best to stay safe as well, and to do my best for the others out there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 03, 2021, 12:22:55 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2021, 12:02:30 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 10:38:21 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 03, 2021, 09:04:43 AM

Girlfriend is thinking she has it and is getting tested tomorrow.

I'm feeling fine, but if she has it then I have it.

Fuck. @ Ben... I don't think it's a pain threshold thing - it's not like a broken toe.  I'm sure different people have different tolerance levels as to when they feel they need medical attention, but the amount of minimizing you often post with is getting tiresome.  The people dealing with it on their own (see Gary and Ruslan) have milder cases than those that seek medical attention.

Alright. I'll stop posting here on this thread then. I don't really have anything other to say. I said my perspective, and my thoughts on how I feel about this virus. Many others have their own feelings as well, and I feel, we all need to take that into consideration. If my Grandma, wants me to go over and see her and would rather have seen me and died catching it, then dying without seeing me because I didn't want her to get sick, yet she did anyway. I would rather have gone and seen her, and risked giving her that covid, as she herself has felt that risk as less than not hugging and seeing her child, at least one last time. I just have a problem with this aspect of how everyone is saying "protect the elders" and disregarding how they may feel about it.

That is what is personal, and that alone is why there is no solution and way we handle this will please everybody.

I don't wish sickness on anyone. And don't want sickness myself either. But, I know and understand, sicknesses are here to stay. We may combat this virus, but then later on down the road, there could be another one that is way, way, way worse than this. And all I can hope for is, we learn and can be prepared for when that does happen. And also, there could even be another medical breakthrough, that is unthinkable of today. That is just how science works.

As I said, it sucks that a lot of people are dying from this.

So...Be safe, and I'll do my best to stay safe as well, and to do my best for the others out there.

I don't think you should stop posting in this thread simply because your comments are rubbing a few people the wrong way. You're not being abusive and or attacking anyone and if you were, I'm sure the mods would step-in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on January 03, 2021, 02:05:10 PM

Truly sorry and sad to hear of everyone's troubles.

Over 30K cases in FL in 2 days. Things keep getting worse. I'm tired. Worn out. Nothing to look forward to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 03, 2021, 02:49:56 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on January 03, 2021, 10:56:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 10:38:21 AM

Fuck. @ Ben... I don't think it's a pain threshold thing - it's not like a broken toe.  I'm sure different people have different tolerance levels as to when they feel they need medical attention, but the amount of minimizing you often post with is getting tiresome. 

(https://media.giphy.com/media/5xtDarmwsuR9sDRObyU/giphy.gif)

But not nearly as tiresome as your hit and run posts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 03, 2021, 03:35:46 PM

Yeah, I'm here to support Ben.  I don't agree with everything he says, but what he says seems to come from the heart and comes with thought.  I'll take that over snarky one-liners all day long and twice on Sunday.

One man's "minimizing" is another man's blowing shit out of proportion.  Doesn't mean either one is right, it's just a point of view. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2021, 03:47:49 PM

Yeah. My fault too. I don't mean to come off that way though.

It's just how frustrating this is for everybody.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 05:20:21 PM

Ben, you don’t need to take your toys and go home. If I (and others) don’t see things the way you do, my commentary need not be taken so harshly.  I don’t know if you mean to come across minimizing it, or realize that your comments can be (and are being) construed as such, so please take it as constructive (if not somewhat terse) criticism.

We’re all guilty of hit and run posts, so I’m not sure why that gif is garnering the pot shots it is.

Quote from: Stadler on January 03, 2021, 03:35:46 PM

I don't agree with everything he says, but what he says seems to come from the heart and comes with thought.  I'll take that over snarky one-liners all day long and twice on Sunday.

:iagree:  on both counts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2021, 05:39:30 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 05:20:21 PM

Ben, you don’t need to take your toys and go home. If I (and others) don’t see things the way you do, my commentary need not be taken so harshly.  I don’t know if you mean to come across minimizing it, or realize that your comments can be (and are being) construed as such, so please take it as constructive (if not somewhat terse) criticism.

We’re all guilty of hit and run posts, so I’m not sure why that gif is garnering the pot shots it is.

Quote from: Stadler on January 03, 2021, 03:35:46 PM

I don't agree with everything he says, but what he says seems to come from the heart and comes with thought.  I'll take that over snarky one-liners all day long and twice on Sunday.

:iagree:  on both counts.

 :tup

Yeah. No hard feelings. And I really did not see that my comments came off that way. It's what sucks sometimes when trying to convey your exact point through text. It's really hard sometimes, without making a long book. Praise jesus for the Emoji's though. Those help a lot.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 03, 2021, 06:35:23 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 03, 2021, 05:20:21 PM

We’re all guilty of hit and run posts, so I’m not sure why that gif is garnering the pot shots it is.

Probably because the great majority of that poster's posts are of the hit and run variety.  Even Barto basically called him out for it last month (at least that is how see it):

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55904.msg2729375#msg2729375

Not trying to pollute this thread by any means, but hit and run posters are, IMO, a stain on the forum and discussions in general.  If bosk1 doesn't want me or anyone else to call them out, that is fine; I am sure he will let me know.  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 04, 2021, 10:35:52 AM

*hits*







*runs*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 05, 2021, 12:46:00 PM

I saw some headlines yesterday about halfing the vaccines to get it to more people  :facepalm:

I'm glad to see today a new article where the FDA is shooting this idea down as well as a few others...

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/fda-just-ruled-cant-4-144554314.html (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/fda-just-ruled-cant-4-144554314.html)

I don't understand why people even started thinking these were good ideas.  The fact the vaccine came so quickly makes me think we should follow EXACTLY what they tell us, not start messing around with it even if the intent was good.  Changing things now would only make people feel less safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 05, 2021, 01:10:12 PM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

Seems here in NJ there was a plan.  Not sure about everywhere else or if our state plan is the best/most effective, but they've said all along they have a plan and it seems to be playing out as they've said.  The problem is not enough available just yet but for the most part, it seems the vaccines are being put to use.  NJ expects to be giving 1 million shots a day by the end of this week. Still on phase 1 of health care workers.

I've seen some instances of people getting their hands on vaccines and selling shots outside of the hospitals.  My mom said her friend, not a healthcare worker, paid $100 a got a shot.  That stuff is a bit shady, but I've also heard stories of hospitals vaccinating family members of workers just so the vaccines don't expire and become useless, that I think is pretty cool and while maybe not "fair" it is a better use than letting them go bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 01:11:26 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 05, 2021, 12:46:00 PM

I saw some headlines yesterday about halfing the vaccines to get it to more people  :facepalm:

The FDA quickly ruled that out. But I'm with you on the  :facepalm:   


A lot of people seem to be just shooting from the hip with this and maybe not thinking things through?  I think there is also a growing fatigue with all of the restrictions and stuff going on, not to mention the economic devastation in some parts of the economy.  I thank my lucky stars that both me and Mrs. NoseHair have stable and secure jobs that are not impacted by the virus at all.  In fact, my company has never been busier and Mrs. NoseHair got the biggest pay raise and bonus of her career this year so go figure, right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 01:15:06 PM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

no national planning at all.  POTUS kind of threw in the towel, especially after the election was called.  I think we're going to have to wait for the next POTUS for there to *finally* be a national plan implemented.   Not that THAT will solve all of our problems but at the current rate of vaccine distribution it will take just under 11 years to get the entire USA population vaccinated.  Obviously that's not a viable plan so something will have to be done.

I have a feeling we may see FEMA getting involved along with the national guard.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 05, 2021, 02:00:10 PM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

Here in Ontario, we're on pace to have the province fully vaccinated by 2028.  Yup, you read that right .... 7 years.  Only 7000ish people vaccinated yesterday.  It's a complete cluster-fuck.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 01:11:26 PM

A lot of people seem to be just shooting from the hip with this and maybe not thinking things through?  I think there is also a growing fatigue with all of the restrictions and stuff going on, not to mention the economic devastation in some parts of the economy.  I thank my lucky stars that both me and Mrs. NoseHair have stable and secure jobs that are not impacted by the virus at all.  In fact, my company has never been busier and Mrs. NoseHair got the biggest pay raise and bonus of her career this year so go figure, right?

I'm confused.  Since you're first name isn't actually Kirk, wouldn't the more appropriate reference by Uhura's Pubes?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I guess it would if she kept her pubes, but she likes the fly a clean clam  :eek


TMI?  :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 05, 2021, 02:16:17 PM

I always use the term Hardwood Floors.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 05, 2021, 02:17:32 PM

Scorched Earth, baby!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:17:42 PM

wait, what?  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 05, 2021, 02:38:42 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I guess it would if she kept her pubes, but she likes the fly a clean clam  :eek


TMI?  :P

TMI?

WHy don't you ask Mrs. Nosehair if what you posted is TMI?  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on January 05, 2021, 02:39:54 PM

Bare biscuit

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:40:15 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on January 05, 2021, 02:38:42 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I guess it would if she kept her pubes, but she likes the fly a clean clam  :eek


TMI?  :P

TMI?

WHy don't you ask Mrs. Nosehair if what you posted is TMI?  :biggrin:

Because I like having testicals?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 05, 2021, 02:46:42 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:40:15 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on January 05, 2021, 02:38:42 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I guess it would if she kept her pubes, but she likes the fly a clean clam  :eek


TMI?  :P

TMI?

WHy don't you ask Mrs. Nosehair if what you posted is TMI?  :biggrin:

Because I like having testicals?

 :lol

First rule of husbandry - know thy place!  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:48:20 PM

Happy Wife = Happy Life

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 05, 2021, 03:40:17 PM

Dear God

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on January 05, 2021, 05:59:08 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 05, 2021, 07:46:37 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 05, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I guess it would if she kept her pubes, but she likes the fly a clean clam  :eek


TMI?  :P

So Lieutenant Ilia's Labia?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 05, 2021, 10:36:25 PM

Whoops. Thought this was the Coronavirus thread. It appears I accidentally stepped into the Pornovirus thread instead.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on January 06, 2021, 06:36:22 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling. As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

It's pretty much the same in most European countries right now. The Finnish health authorities now estimate the whole population would take about a year to vaccinate, and I'm not very confident the current iteration of the vaccine would be of any use to me come autumn. I guess this just shows the modern legislation and policy-making around the western world doesn't properly recognize a dangerous pandemic, it's a mess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 06:44:57 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

This is the myth.  THERE WAS A PLAN.   Buy as many vaccines as are available - remember, these entities are not manufacturing vaccines JUST for the United States, but for the world - and distribute them to the States as fast as reasonably possible.  That happened.  Then the States were to distribute accordingly to their citizens.  Some States did that, some did not.

Let's not pretend this is all just Trump eating cheeseburgers.  My State is on track to distribute most of the vaccines it expected to receive (https://www.journalinquirer.com/connecticut_and_region/state-vaccine-distribution-in-connecticut-is-on-track-with-2-of-population-inoculated/article_222c1340-4f68-11eb-9bc2-dbcc696d7af7.html).  The problem is NOT getting the vaccines that are available, it's getting them into the arms.  What, pray, is the Federal government going to do there that can't be done at the local level?   Contrast that with other countries - France for one - that are having similar issues in terms of not meeting projected numbers (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine).  In fact, France - Socialist, led by the wonderful Emmanuel Macron - has a bigger "trust of government" problem than we do (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine). 

Let's try not to rewrite everything in terms of our political bias. This is a MASSIVE undertaking, with little precedent.   None of this is said to defend Trump - he's indefensible - but simply to highlight that like it or not there are some things that are harder to lay at his feet, as much as we might want to.  Biden - who I like - is going to come in and say all the right things, and make us feel better, but I see very little he's going to ACTUALLY be able to do that is going to get vaccines into people's arms much quicker.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 06:47:54 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 05, 2021, 10:36:25 PM

Whoops. Thought this was the Coronavirus thread. It appears I accidentally stepped into the Pornovirus thread instead.

HAHAHA.

Am I the only one that still likes carpet on my floors?   Maybe not the shag carpeting of the 70's, but still...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 06, 2021, 06:55:42 AM

Well now seems like a weird time to say my girlfriend tested negative.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 07:00:32 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 06, 2021, 06:55:42 AM

Well now seems like a weird time to say my girlfriend tested negative.

Yeah, whatever.  That's all well and good, but what's the decor like?







(I'm totally kidding; that is NOT a question you should feel obligated to answer. And of course, I'm happy for her AND you.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 06, 2021, 07:10:26 AM

Well that's good news Adami.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 06, 2021, 07:13:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 07:00:32 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 06, 2021, 06:55:42 AM

Well now seems like a weird time to say my girlfriend tested negative.

Yeah, whatever.  That's all well and good, but what's the decor like?







(I'm totally kidding; that is NOT a question you should feel obligated to answer. And of course, I'm happy for her AND you.)

Down boy! Down!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 06, 2021, 07:17:51 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 06, 2021, 07:10:26 AM

Well that's good news Adami.

Yea! Personally, and I know Stads and Kotow will agree, I fully credit 2021 for the good news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 06, 2021, 07:30:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 06:47:54 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 05, 2021, 10:36:25 PM

Whoops. Thought this was the Coronavirus thread. It appears I accidentally stepped into the Pornovirus thread instead.

HAHAHA.

Am I the only one that still likes carpet on my floors?   Maybe not the shag carpeting of the 70's, but still...

If there's grass on the field, play ball.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 07:31:32 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 06, 2021, 07:17:51 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 06, 2021, 07:10:26 AM

Well that's good news Adami.

Yea! Personally, and I know Stads and Kotow will agree, I fully credit 2021 for the good news.

 :tup  That got a laugh out loud.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 06, 2021, 07:48:30 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 06, 2021, 07:17:51 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 06, 2021, 07:10:26 AM

Well that's good news Adami.

Yea! Personally, and I know Stads and Kotow will agree, I fully credit 2021 for the good news.

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 06, 2021, 08:21:34 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 06:44:57 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

This is the myth.  THERE WAS A PLAN.   Buy as many vaccines as are available - remember, these entities are not manufacturing vaccines JUST for the United States, but for the world - and distribute them to the States as fast as reasonably possible.  That happened.  Then the States were to distribute accordingly to their citizens.  Some States did that, some did not.

Let's not pretend this is all just Trump eating cheeseburgers.  My State is on track to distribute most of the vaccines it expected to receive (https://www.journalinquirer.com/connecticut_and_region/state-vaccine-distribution-in-connecticut-is-on-track-with-2-of-population-inoculated/article_222c1340-4f68-11eb-9bc2-dbcc696d7af7.html).  The problem is NOT getting the vaccines that are available, it's getting them into the arms.  What, pray, is the Federal government going to do there that can't be done at the local level?   Contrast that with other countries - France for one - that are having similar issues in terms of not meeting projected numbers (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine).  In fact, France - Socialist, led by the wonderful Emmanuel Macron - has a bigger "trust of government" problem than we do (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine). 

Let's try not to rewrite everything in terms of our political bias. This is a MASSIVE undertaking, with little precedent.   None of this is said to defend Trump - he's indefensible - but simply to highlight that like it or not there are some things that are harder to lay at his feet, as much as we might want to.  Biden - who I like - is going to come in and say all the right things, and make us feel better, but I see very little he's going to ACTUALLY be able to do that is going to get vaccines into people's arms much quicker.

I get there was a plan for supplying a vaccine, I’m talking about getting it in peoples arms. Vaccines are literally sitting in coolers waiting to be used. Although I lucked into a vaccination, I haven’t heard when my 75 year old parents can expect to be vaccinated, nor have my wife’s parents.

Also, not sure why you brought politics into it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 06, 2021, 08:51:02 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 06:44:57 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

This is the myth.  THERE WAS A PLAN.   Buy as many vaccines as are available - remember, these entities are not manufacturing vaccines JUST for the United States, but for the world - and distribute them to the States as fast as reasonably possible.  That happened.  Then the States were to distribute accordingly to their citizens.  Some States did that, some did not.

Let's not pretend this is all just Trump eating cheeseburgers.  My State is on track to distribute most of the vaccines it expected to receive (https://www.journalinquirer.com/connecticut_and_region/state-vaccine-distribution-in-connecticut-is-on-track-with-2-of-population-inoculated/article_222c1340-4f68-11eb-9bc2-dbcc696d7af7.html).  The problem is NOT getting the vaccines that are available, it's getting them into the arms.  What, pray, is the Federal government going to do there that can't be done at the local level?   Contrast that with other countries - France for one - that are having similar issues in terms of not meeting projected numbers (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine).  In fact, France - Socialist, led by the wonderful Emmanuel Macron - has a bigger "trust of government" problem than we do (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine). 

Let's try not to rewrite everything in terms of our political bias. This is a MASSIVE undertaking, with little precedent.   None of this is said to defend Trump - he's indefensible - but simply to highlight that like it or not there are some things that are harder to lay at his feet, as much as we might want to.  Biden - who I like - is going to come in and say all the right things, and make us feel better, but I see very little he's going to ACTUALLY be able to do that is going to get vaccines into people's arms much quicker.

I find this bolded statement incredibly ironic, since you are the one bringing politics into the topic.  Barry kinda put the onus on POTUS / national plan, but no one else went down a political path around who is to blame, what levels (State vs Federal), what agencies should've been more prepared and more active, etc....  Just the simple statement that there is clearly no plan or execution that is resulting in the desired outcome - mass vaccination/inoculation.  And it's not a US-only problem (as you touched on as well).  If the "plan" (as you said) was to buy as much as possible, then  :tup.  That's a different plan though.  As you often say around Obamacare (# insured is the wrong metric), let's make sure the plan focuses on the right metric - needles in arms should be the outcome, not purchase orders.

Quote from: T-ski on January 06, 2021, 08:21:34 AM

I get there was a plan for supplying a vaccine, I’m talking about getting it in peoples arms. Vaccines are literally sitting in coolers waiting to be used. Although I lucked into a vaccination, I haven’t heard when my 75 year old parents can expect to be vaccinated, nor have my wife’s parents.

Also, not sure why you brought politics into it.

Or Trump specifically.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 06, 2021, 08:57:31 AM

I look at it like the scene in Ghostbusters when the three of them are at the library and see the ghost and Bill Murray says, “so what do we do?” and Dan Aykroyd just has a confused look on his face.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 06, 2021, 09:03:13 AM

But let's not forget the main point Stadler is making which is that the fed did it's job of securing the vaccines, it's now the states jobs to get the shots in arms.  Now if we think that's incorrect, fine, but that seems to be the plan so that puts the blame moreso on the governors than Trump.  It seems very much that Trump has checked out of doing his job so I think there's some fair game to blame him, but I think the ball rolls down hill a little bit here and there's a lot of blame to be put on states not being prepared.  I can only speak for my state, NJ, as I follow the governor on social media so I can see all the updates.  But 100k NJ residents have been vaccinated already, they are about to open up 8 sites in my county to start doing this more rapidly.  He's been talking about this for MONTHs now and while it's not super quick, it is happening right about on pace as advertised.

Let's also remember that a 100% vaccination goal is kind of unrealistic.  There's plenty of people who will refuse, and a bunch who can't get it for medical reasons.  I think the reality is, that's not a problem.  If they can get over half the population vaccinated, we will see this virus start to not be a huge problem anymore.  That goal is VERY much in reach in my state by the summer.  Kind of hard for me to blame Trump or anyone, in fact, I should be applauding for how quickly this is happening.  But I understand that's not the same for every state so I can see why others are more frustrated. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 06, 2021, 09:40:32 AM

Largely, the states DO have distribution plans.  However, the difficulty is turning out to be on the ground - not enough people to actually give the shots.  It's not like the flu shot, which can be just a 5-minute in and out at your doctor's office or pharmacy.

With this vaccine, there are questions and answers to be given, plus any extra questions the patient may have.  Then, apparently, they have to keep you for 10 or 15 minutes after the shot to monitor for reactions.  The whole thing is around 30 minutes.

That's a lot of of time, with this many vaccines to be given out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on January 06, 2021, 10:33:52 AM

Four quick (or not so quick) points I want to make:

1.  First and foremost, sorry to hear about your loss, Chad.  I don't visit the chat thread hardly at all, and didn't see it.  Sorry for yours, too, Barry, and for the frustration that the circumstances surrounding it cause.  That type of thing really saddens me. 

2.  @Ben:  Keep on posting.  As Chad and others have said, nobody has to agree with you or like what you are saying.  You are speaking your mind in a respectful way, and you are entitled to do so.

3.  I am just going to pretend like page 192 of this thread doesn't exist.

4.  Regarding this:

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 02, 2021, 04:36:16 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 01, 2021, 07:49:50 PM

I brought this over from the Politics Of The Coronavirus Thread. Sure, he's just one guy's opinion, but he discussed a circumstance that was a very real thing in my wife's family. An Elder's assumption of Risk.


We usually host a big Christmas Eve gathering every year. Of course this year we didn't. My Mother In Law asked my wife if we could go down and and see her (she's 81 , and actually quite spry, and her husband is 83). So of course we went. It was basically for appetizers and a small dinner.

Earlier in the day, my sister in law, called both my MiL and my wife and went off screaming a swearing that they were "fucking nuts". My wife was fucking pissed, and my MiL was quite hurt.


Anyway, my wife was going to honor her mother's request. Her mother and her husband have their full faculties mentally, and it was their decision how they wanted to spend Christmas Eve. She knows where my wife works. She knows where I work, and she knows my son attends school. And she would rather see at least a part of her family than be alone.

The thing is, how many Christmases does she have left. She could drop dead of pneumonia in May, and my wife would forever regret not seeing her this last Christmas. I suspect my SiL will feel the same.


I know there's a few of you in this forum that are going to read this and think the way my SiL does, that we're "fucking nuts."
And you'd not be wrong. You can't argue with the position of safety.

But there was just no way my wife was going to deny her mother's request.

Totally get where you're coming from, and we were kinda the same.  Though our mothers are only 74 (mine) and 68 (mrs.jingle's), we man arrangements to see them each for about 90 minutes over the holidays.  It was the best we would/could do to balance safety (as our own as theirs) along with mental and social health.  As Herrick said, it's not just about living/dying, but the burdens that would come with a COVID illness that needs to be considered - ie, getting sick, and dying alone.  What if JUST one of your in-laws contracted it, and then the other has to sit at home alone and wait for the outcome.  Hopefully that went into their calculus (to steal a Stadler-ism) as well.  That would be a rather heavy burden for everyone to carry.  What if you contracted it?  What if your son did?

These are all the things that we took into consideration to minimize the risk to jingle.family - everyone involved.

In a similar boat.  My mom and sister live in Florida.  My mom in particular hasn't seen any of my kids other than my middle son since 10 years ago, and my oldest is graduating this year.  She really wanted us to come, is aware and accepting of the risks, and (for the most part) plays it safe and understands what it takes to keep risks to a minimum.  So we went to Florida to see her.  As with any situation like that, there were a few times on the trip where we found ourselves in situations that were not ideal.  Unless you stay at home all the time, I think that is almost inevitable.  But by and large, things were done as they should have been, and I am glad we went.  We are on day 9 of quarantine after getting home, and everyone there are here seems fine.  Looking back, in retrospect, there are a few things we could and should have done a bit differently.  But still glad we went and spent the time with her.  I don't know if she will ever have that opportunity to see all of her grandkids (mine and my sister's kids) together again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 06, 2021, 10:39:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 06, 2021, 09:03:13 AM

But let's not forget the main point Stadler is making which is that the fed did it's job of securing the vaccines, it's now the states jobs to get the shots in arms.  Now if we think that's incorrect, fine, but that seems to be the plan so that puts the blame moreso on the governors than Trump.  It seems very much that Trump has checked out of doing his job so I think there's some fair game to blame him, but I think the ball rolls down hill a little bit here and there's a lot of blame to be put on states not being prepared.  I can only speak for my state, NJ, as I follow the governor on social media so I can see all the updates.  But 100k NJ residents have been vaccinated already, they are about to open up 8 sites in my county to start doing this more rapidly.  He's been talking about this for MONTHs now and while it's not super quick, it is happening right about on pace as advertised.

Let's also remember that a 100% vaccination goal is kind of unrealistic.  There's plenty of people who will refuse, and a bunch who can't get it for medical reasons.  I think the reality is, that's not a problem.  If they can get over half the population vaccinated, we will see this virus start to not be a huge problem anymore.  That goal is VERY much in reach in my state by the summer.  Kind of hard for me to blame Trump or anyone, in fact, I should be applauding for how quickly this is happening.  But I understand that's not the same for every state so I can see why others are more frustrated.

Agreed on all of the above, and the execution of vaccines is a Provincial responsibility here as well.  Doesn't really matter whether it's Fed or Prov/State... the execution (by-and-large) has been inconsistent and a trainwreck - perhaps the Feds should've had consistent guidelines/practices for the Provinces / States to follow?  Leaving things at that level results in 11 or 50 different approaches, and that's part of the clusterfuck.

@ Jerry... thanks.  Appreciate the sentiments.  Sorry I derailed page 192 - thanks for not banning me for it   :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 06, 2021, 11:10:08 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 06, 2021, 08:21:34 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 06:44:57 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

This is the myth.  THERE WAS A PLAN.   Buy as many vaccines as are available - remember, these entities are not manufacturing vaccines JUST for the United States, but for the world - and distribute them to the States as fast as reasonably possible.  That happened.  Then the States were to distribute accordingly to their citizens.  Some States did that, some did not.

Let's not pretend this is all just Trump eating cheeseburgers.  My State is on track to distribute most of the vaccines it expected to receive (https://www.journalinquirer.com/connecticut_and_region/state-vaccine-distribution-in-connecticut-is-on-track-with-2-of-population-inoculated/article_222c1340-4f68-11eb-9bc2-dbcc696d7af7.html).  The problem is NOT getting the vaccines that are available, it's getting them into the arms.  What, pray, is the Federal government going to do there that can't be done at the local level?   Contrast that with other countries - France for one - that are having similar issues in terms of not meeting projected numbers (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine).  In fact, France - Socialist, led by the wonderful Emmanuel Macron - has a bigger "trust of government" problem than we do (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine). 

Let's try not to rewrite everything in terms of our political bias. This is a MASSIVE undertaking, with little precedent.   None of this is said to defend Trump - he's indefensible - but simply to highlight that like it or not there are some things that are harder to lay at his feet, as much as we might want to.  Biden - who I like - is going to come in and say all the right things, and make us feel better, but I see very little he's going to ACTUALLY be able to do that is going to get vaccines into people's arms much quicker.

I get there was a plan for supplying a vaccine, I’m talking about getting it in peoples arms. Vaccines are literally sitting in coolers waiting to be used. Although I lucked into a vaccination, I haven’t heard when my 75 year old parents can expect to be vaccinated, nor have my wife’s parents.

Also, not sure why you brought politics into it.

It wasn't Stadler, it was me when I said that POTUS had just completely checked out of his job once he lost the election.  I'm not blaming the pandemic on him.  Sorry about making it political, I just think passing the buck to the states is just that, passing the buck.  There has to be federal involvement in this.  We have a national guard/military arm that literally DO logistics for a living.  They run vaccination programs in emergency zones, earthquakes, etc.  NONE of that has been engaged to offer support to the states whose budgets have been eviscerated by the virus.  So no, I don't blame the pandemic on any politicians but I do blame 45 for how bad things got here. 


And if you don't think he's responsible I urge you to pick up a copy of Bob Woodward's book "Rage" Quite the eye-opening read.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 06, 2021, 11:12:30 AM

NJ just announced tomorrow police and firefighters will be eligible to get vaccinated.  We are moving along over here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 06, 2021, 11:23:42 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 06, 2021, 10:39:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 06, 2021, 09:03:13 AM

But let's not forget the main point Stadler is making which is that the fed did it's job of securing the vaccines, it's now the states jobs to get the shots in arms.  Now if we think that's incorrect, fine, but that seems to be the plan so that puts the blame moreso on the governors than Trump.  It seems very much that Trump has checked out of doing his job so I think there's some fair game to blame him, but I think the ball rolls down hill a little bit here and there's a lot of blame to be put on states not being prepared.  I can only speak for my state, NJ, as I follow the governor on social media so I can see all the updates.  But 100k NJ residents have been vaccinated already, they are about to open up 8 sites in my county to start doing this more rapidly.  He's been talking about this for MONTHs now and while it's not super quick, it is happening right about on pace as advertised.

Let's also remember that a 100% vaccination goal is kind of unrealistic.  There's plenty of people who will refuse, and a bunch who can't get it for medical reasons.  I think the reality is, that's not a problem.  If they can get over half the population vaccinated, we will see this virus start to not be a huge problem anymore.  That goal is VERY much in reach in my state by the summer.  Kind of hard for me to blame Trump or anyone, in fact, I should be applauding for how quickly this is happening.  But I understand that's not the same for every state so I can see why others are more frustrated.

Agreed on all of the above, and the execution of vaccines is a Provincial responsibility here as well.  Doesn't really matter whether it's Fed or Prov/State... the execution (by-and-large) has been inconsistent and a trainwreck - perhaps the Feds should've had consistent guidelines/practices for the Provinces / States to follow?  Leaving things at that level results in 11 or 50 different approaches, and that's part of the clusterfuck.

@ Jerry... thanks.  Appreciate the sentiments.  Sorry I derailed page 192 - thanks for not banning me for it   :biggrin:

I agree with these two statements but I emphatically agree with Mr. Jingle! From the beginning, there was no real coordinated response at the Federal level and the States were basically left to fend for themselves. Yes, the States need to execute the plan if there is a real plan out there. I'd be willing to bet that Fauci is giving Biden's team daily updates.

BTW - I don't blame this administration for the virus but I sure as hell blame them for the response to it.  That's not political, that's just a fact.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on January 06, 2021, 12:10:58 PM

For purposes of the discussion at hand, I'll just say this from a mod/admin perspective:  I think some amount of discussion creep into P/R territory is natural and inevitable, given the nature of what we are talking about.  That's fine.  We are perhaps crossing the line a bit farther than other threads in terms of what should be kept mostly to the P/R forum.  But I think you guys are trying reasonably hard to not let it stray too far into politics.  Just continue to try to keep it reasonable, and I have no problem with where it is going.  If I feel like it is straying a bit too far, I will interject.  But in the mean time, don't worry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 06, 2021, 12:22:15 PM

Thanks for the flexibility, bosk1  :biggrin:


Talked to my son last night and he said he and his wife are almost back to 100% and the kids are doing fine.  I wonder how long they'll be immune now?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 06, 2021, 12:27:05 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 06, 2021, 12:22:15 PM

Thanks for the flexibility, bosk1  :biggrin:


Talked to my son last night and he said he and his wife are almost back to 100% and the kids are doing fine.  I wonder how long they'll be immune now?

Until the next mutation, I say that half jokingly and half seriously.  I think immunity in general would be at least 6 months, maybe more, but the mutations could change that. Just my thoughts.  They are saying people who were infected should still get vaccinated when they can as the vaccine provides more antibodies than your body typically will make and may also help prevent from the mutated strains as well.  That is what I read today so not just my thoughts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 12:58:59 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 06, 2021, 08:51:02 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 06, 2021, 06:44:57 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

How there wasn’t a plan put in place to get everyone vaccinated is mind boggling.  As soon as the vaccine research started the plan should have started as to how to efficiently get it to the masses.

It’s inexcusable.

This is the myth.  THERE WAS A PLAN.   Buy as many vaccines as are available - remember, these entities are not manufacturing vaccines JUST for the United States, but for the world - and distribute them to the States as fast as reasonably possible.  That happened.  Then the States were to distribute accordingly to their citizens.  Some States did that, some did not.

Let's not pretend this is all just Trump eating cheeseburgers.  My State is on track to distribute most of the vaccines it expected to receive (https://www.journalinquirer.com/connecticut_and_region/state-vaccine-distribution-in-connecticut-is-on-track-with-2-of-population-inoculated/article_222c1340-4f68-11eb-9bc2-dbcc696d7af7.html).  The problem is NOT getting the vaccines that are available, it's getting them into the arms.  What, pray, is the Federal government going to do there that can't be done at the local level?   Contrast that with other countries - France for one - that are having similar issues in terms of not meeting projected numbers (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine).  In fact, France - Socialist, led by the wonderful Emmanuel Macron - has a bigger "trust of government" problem than we do (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/1/6/why-are-so-many-in-france-hesitant-to-take-the-covid-19-vaccine). 

Let's try not to rewrite everything in terms of our political bias. This is a MASSIVE undertaking, with little precedent.   None of this is said to defend Trump - he's indefensible - but simply to highlight that like it or not there are some things that are harder to lay at his feet, as much as we might want to.  Biden - who I like - is going to come in and say all the right things, and make us feel better, but I see very little he's going to ACTUALLY be able to do that is going to get vaccines into people's arms much quicker.

I find this bolded statement incredibly ironic, since you are the one bringing politics into the topic.  Barry kinda put the onus on POTUS / national plan, but no one else went down a political path around who is to blame, what levels (State vs Federal), what agencies should've been more prepared and more active, etc....  Just the simple statement that there is clearly no plan or execution that is resulting in the desired outcome - mass vaccination/inoculation.  And it's not a US-only problem (as you touched on as well).  If the "plan" (as you said) was to buy as much as possible, then  :tup.  That's a different plan though.  As you often say around Obamacare (# insured is the wrong metric), let's make sure the plan focuses on the right metric - needles in arms should be the outcome, not purchase orders.

Quote from: T-ski on January 06, 2021, 08:21:34 AM

I get there was a plan for supplying a vaccine, I’m talking about getting it in peoples arms. Vaccines are literally sitting in coolers waiting to be used. Although I lucked into a vaccination, I haven’t heard when my 75 year old parents can expect to be vaccinated, nor have my wife’s parents.

Also, not sure why you brought politics into it.

Or Trump specifically.

Okay, my bad.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 06, 2021, 08:39:39 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on January 06, 2021, 12:10:58 PM

For purposes of the discussion at hand, I'll just say this from a mod/admin perspective:  I think some amount of discussion creep into P/R territory is natural and inevitable, given the nature of what we are talking about.  That's fine.  We are perhaps crossing the line a bit farther than other threads in terms of what should be kept mostly to the P/R forum.  But I think you guys are trying reasonably hard to not let it stray too far into politics.  Just continue to try to keep it reasonable, and I have no problem with where it is going.  If I feel like it is straying a bit too far, I will interject.  But in the mean time, don't worry.

Good call. :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 05:15:17 PM

My state in Australia has been one of the most non affected areas I think in the world for this virus and now we are all of a sudden going into a 3 day lockdown due to 1 case popping up yesterday!  :lol  I'm not laughing because it's funny just because it's unbelievable really.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 07, 2021, 05:22:21 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 05:15:17 PM

My state in Australia has been one of the most non affected areas I think in the world for this virus and now we are all of a sudden going into a 3 day lockdown due to 1 case popping up yesterday!  :lol  I'm not laughing because it's funny just because it's unbelievable really.

That's kind of amazing really to think your area hasn't been affected much so far. However, the way this works, 1 case means you probably have a bunch more next week. Hopefully your area can stay one of the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 06:00:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 07, 2021, 05:22:21 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 05:15:17 PM

My state in Australia has been one of the most non affected areas I think in the world for this virus and now we are all of a sudden going into a 3 day lockdown due to 1 case popping up yesterday!  :lol  I'm not laughing because it's funny just because it's unbelievable really.

That's kind of amazing really to think your area hasn't been affected much so far. However, the way this works, 1 case means you probably have a bunch more next week. Hopefully your area can stay one of the best.

Our government have been over cautious, but it means we've been pretty good.  We had a lockdown ealier in the year but been back up and running close to normal for months now.  Just crazy how quick it escalates.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 07, 2021, 06:40:48 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 06:00:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 07, 2021, 05:22:21 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 05:15:17 PM

My state in Australia has been one of the most non affected areas I think in the world for this virus and now we are all of a sudden going into a 3 day lockdown due to 1 case popping up yesterday!  :lol  I'm not laughing because it's funny just because it's unbelievable really.

That's kind of amazing really to think your area hasn't been affected much so far. However, the way this works, 1 case means you probably have a bunch more next week. Hopefully your area can stay one of the best.

Our government have been over cautious, but it means we've been pretty good.  We had a lockdown ealier in the year but been back up and running close to normal for months now.  Just crazy how quick it escalates.

Short term pain for long term gain.  You Aussies are doing it right.  The rest of the world has skull-cluster-fucked this thing right from the get go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 06:45:43 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 07, 2021, 06:40:48 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 06:00:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 07, 2021, 05:22:21 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 05:15:17 PM

My state in Australia has been one of the most non affected areas I think in the world for this virus and now we are all of a sudden going into a 3 day lockdown due to 1 case popping up yesterday!  :lol  I'm not laughing because it's funny just because it's unbelievable really.

That's kind of amazing really to think your area hasn't been affected much so far. However, the way this works, 1 case means you probably have a bunch more next week. Hopefully your area can stay one of the best.

Our government have been over cautious, but it means we've been pretty good.  We had a lockdown ealier in the year but been back up and running close to normal for months now.  Just crazy how quick it escalates.

Short term pain for long term gain.  You Aussies are doing it right.  The rest of the world has skull-cluster-fucked this thing right from the get go.

The approach they have taken has been great and then things like this still happen.  No wonder the rest of the world is as fucked as they are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 08, 2021, 01:54:47 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 07, 2021, 06:40:48 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 06:00:41 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 07, 2021, 05:22:21 PM

Quote from: wolfking on January 07, 2021, 05:15:17 PM

My state in Australia has been one of the most non affected areas I think in the world for this virus and now we are all of a sudden going into a 3 day lockdown due to 1 case popping up yesterday!  :lol  I'm not laughing because it's funny just because it's unbelievable really.

That's kind of amazing really to think your area hasn't been affected much so far. However, the way this works, 1 case means you probably have a bunch more next week. Hopefully your area can stay one of the best.

Our government have been over cautious, but it means we've been pretty good.  We had a lockdown ealier in the year but been back up and running close to normal for months now.  Just crazy how quick it escalates.

Short term pain for long term gain.  You Aussies are doing it right.  The rest of the world has skull-cluster-fucked this thing right from the get go.

I agree with this definition.

Of course, it's not that all the other nations are into self-harm; when you close, you have to support the people that suffer from it. Not every nation can afford that. But if you leave the socio-political factor out of it, the technical solution is really simple: you need strong measures when the cases are few, not average measures when the cases are many.

BTW Wolfking, are you from.... ehm, I'm blanking at the moment, the state where Melbourne is? I've read some months ago an interview with an italian immigrant that worked there, and he described the situation just like you said it, with a strong lockdown being held for 5 cases in a population of five millions, and then eventually everyone reaping the benefits of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on January 08, 2021, 04:20:27 AM

Nah, Brisbane mate.  Minimum 3 day lockdown with 1 person testing positive with the UK strain apparently that went around a few shops.  Swift action after I think 113 days of no cases in the state.  Melbourne had it a lot worse then we've had it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 08, 2021, 06:03:20 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 08, 2021, 01:54:47 AM

the technical solution is really simple: you need strong measures when the cases are few, not average measures when the cases are many.

Perfectly put.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 08, 2021, 07:09:21 AM

Wife is getting her first shot next week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 08, 2021, 09:58:15 AM

Quote from: wolfking on January 08, 2021, 04:20:27 AM

Nah, Brisbane mate.  Minimum 3 day lockdown with 1 person testing positive with the UK strain apparently that went around a few shops.  Swift action after I think 113 days of no cases in the state.  Melbourne had it a lot worse then we've had it.

I forget what life was like with 1 day of no cases let alone 113.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 08, 2021, 11:10:33 AM

ICU Doctors in Ontario are indicating at current course and speed, by February, they will have to start denying care to patients with low probability of survival.

What the fuck are people not getting?  Stop moving this fucking virus around!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 08, 2021, 11:17:07 AM

Why do people think they are unable to speak on the phone with a mask on?

The amount of people I've seen remove their masks to speak on the phone, even indoors, is astonishing.

I was waiting to take an elevator to my car after grocery shopping when a guy cut ahead of me with his mask around his chin to speak on the phone. I ended up walking up the car ramp because it wasn't safe otherwise. God dammit.

But hey, the guy did his own risk assessment and now I have to walk up a car ramp because his decision to not give a damn trumps mine to give a damn.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 08, 2021, 11:18:33 AM

Quote from: Adami on January 08, 2021, 11:17:07 AM

Why do people think they are unable to speak on the phone with a mask on?

The amount of people I've seen remove their masks to speak on the phone, even indoors, is astonishing.

I've noticed this too.  Both times seeing my mother in the last 6 months, she pulled her mask down to take a phone call!  She went into another room once at least, but still.  I can hear you from 10 feet away with a mask on, the phone will pick up your voice from 10mm away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 08, 2021, 11:20:15 AM

I've had many phone calls with a mask on. At no point did anyone have a problem hearing me or even ask if I were wearing a mask.

Also, I know we all want to eat/drink/smoke while in crowds, but removing the mask to do this doesn't provide some kind of viral loophole. It's not like COVID says "Wait a minute boys, they're just smoking....so we hold tight. It's the honorable thing to do."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 08, 2021, 12:46:25 PM

I've had probably half a dozen people either here at work or at the gym walk up to me to tell me something and they pulled their mask down to say it, but not until they were like 2 feet from my damned face  >:(   My mask stays on at all times at the gym, but WTF is wrong with everyone?  This shit is killing a person here in the united states about once every 8 fucking seconds and it's BECAUSE selfish, low-information assholes refuse to do the right thing.  I'll tell you what, I would support charging these people with simple assault, maybe that will snap them out of their fucking willful ignorance.  It's really infuriating.  :yeahright

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 08, 2021, 05:28:22 PM

How do you feel about the people that wear their mask "right", but are loose on the sides, and the germs are escaping that way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 08, 2021, 06:04:54 PM

I am out a lot for work (though I am only hitting up the same few stores) and I rarely see anyone without a mask on.

I will say there have been times I had to pull my mask away from my face as best possible in order to properly convey what lumber/hardware I need to procure. Between my mask, the vendor's mask, and the plexiglass shield between us (and a potential language issue), it can be tough to communicate the correct products I need.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on January 09, 2021, 06:52:58 AM

Honestly I'm getting a little fed up with people complaining about others and their non-perfect mask usage. I see it here, on Facebook, in person... all over the place. If you're going to get angry about people out in public not using their mask exactly like you think they should, perhaps you should just stay home. It's hard to wear a mask all day, or at all, for many people. I find it extremely uncomfortable and hate every second of it and though I do my best to wear it properly, I am constantly fiddling with it, which I know is supposed to be bad.

People say "we're all in this together" but then immediately judge people harshly, rant and rave about others not doing what they think they should, and in some situations verbally assault people. Yes, a small percentage of people are deliberately being assholes, but the vast majority aren't. We're all imperfect beings and everyone is struggling through this to varying degrees. We all need a little grace and understanding.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM

Perhaps that’s the better point of clarity then .... being upset when people appear to be purposefully not caring / not wearing it properly?  Add to that the situations where they then don’t respect physical distancing, I think that’s perfectly fine to be upset about.

Also, why should I have to stay home because of the irresponsible behaviours of others?  And I don’t mean people like you that are doing their part to be as responsible as possible on this issue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 09, 2021, 07:35:43 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 09, 2021, 06:52:58 AM

Honestly I'm getting a little fed up with people complaining about others and their non-perfect mask usage. I see it here, on Facebook, in person... all over the place. If you're going to get angry about people out in public not using their mask exactly like you think they should, perhaps you should just stay home. It's hard to wear a mask all day, or at all, for many people. I find it extremely uncomfortable and hate every second of it and though I do my best to wear it properly, I am constantly fiddling with it, which I know is supposed to be bad.

People say "we're all in this together" but then immediately judge people harshly, rant and rave about others not doing what they think they should, and in some situations verbally assault people. Yes, a small percentage of people are deliberately being assholes, but the vast majority aren't. We're all imperfect beings and everyone is struggling through this to varying degrees. We all need a little grace and understanding.

Very well said.  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on January 09, 2021, 07:55:00 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM

Perhaps that’s the better point of clarity then .... being upset when people appear to be purposefully not caring / not wearing it properly?  Add to that the situations where they then don’t respect physical distancing, I think that’s perfectly fine to be upset about.

Also, why should I have to stay home because of the irresponsible behaviours of others?  And I don’t mean people like you that are doing their part to be as responsible as possible on this issue.

I have been out and about a lot in the last 9 months and I can't think of a single instance that I am certain a person was deliberately being an asshole. The people who get upset and angry over other's behavior are mostly interpreting another's actions as deliberate when they have no reason to. Yes, of course I've heard stories of people deliberately being shitty people, but most I see are just imperfect people being absent minded or struggling in their own private way.

Guy in store without mask on
My thought: poor guy must be unable to wear a mask for some reason that is none of my business. I'll give him plenty of distance to make sure he's safe and I am.
Many people: what a fucking asshole. He's endangering everyone around just because he's selfish and has bought into the anti-mask nonsense.

Guy with nose hanging out of mask
My thought: I get it. Having a mask on for a long time is hard and it can feel difficult to breathe at times. I'll give him plenty of distance to make sure he's safe and I am.
Many people: what a fucking asshole. He's endangering everyone around just because he's selfish and lazy.

Guy steps within my 6 foot bubble
My thought: I forget about the distance thing sometimes too. I'll take a step away to make sure the proper distance is maintained.
Many people: what a fucking asshole. He's endangering me just because he's a selfish and doesn't give a shit.

If you're in the latter group and see a need to be judgmental and angry every time someone does something even remotely wrong, you're going to find yourself angry and disappointed everywhere you go. You'd be happier just staying home. For me it boils down to this: I am going to do what I think I need to do to keep myself safe. I'm going mind my own business and not worry about what others are doing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on January 09, 2021, 08:02:41 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 09, 2021, 07:55:00 AM

If you're in the latter group and see a need to be judgmental and angry every time someone does something even remotely wrong, you're going to find that you're probably over 50-years-old.

FTFY

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 09:25:28 AM

All fair points xizor.  Consider yourself lucky that you haven't seen anyone that was deliberately being inconsiderate and/or obstinate to the health guidelines in your area.  My thought in the situations you called out however is "we've been in this global pandemic for over 10 months now where a couple million people have died and our healthcare system is breaking.  You really should be more aware and conscious of how your actions might affect the rest of the public around you".

I get the absent minded stuff... I've inadvertently stepped up a little too close to people at the cashier in Costco.  And the more talking one does with a mask on, the more they have to adjust it to ensure it does cover their nose.  All that is understandable and forgivable.  There's lots of other stuff that isn't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on January 09, 2021, 11:17:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 09:25:28 AM

All fair points xizor.  Consider yourself lucky that you haven't seen anyone that was deliberately being inconsiderate and/or obstinate to the health guidelines in your area.  My thought in the situations you called out however is "we've been in this global pandemic for over 10 months now where a couple million people have died and our healthcare system is breaking.  You really should be more aware and conscious of how your actions might affect the rest of the public around you".

I get the absent minded stuff... I've inadvertently stepped up a little too close to people at the cashier in Costco.  And the more talking one does with a mask on, the more they have to adjust it to ensure it does cover their nose.  All that is understandable and forgivable.  There's lots of other stuff that isn't.

Yeah, I won't argue that people should be more careful or take things more seriously. My bigger point is that being judgement and holier than thou about everything is counter productive and destructive to our society.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 11:36:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM

Perhaps that’s the better point of clarity then .... being upset when people appear to be purposefully not caring / not wearing it properly?  Add to that the situations where they then don’t respect physical distancing, I think that’s perfectly fine to be upset about.

Also, why should I have to stay home because of the irresponsible behaviours of others?  And I don’t mean people like you that are doing their part to be as responsible as possible on this issue.

Because "tend your own garden".  We take the world the way it is, not the way we want it to be.   Replace "mask" with any of a 100 other things and it's not on the rest of the world to placate ME, I have to - if, like someone above said, 'we're all in this together' - to fit my issues/concerns/foibles/fears/desires into the world.  I get advocating for what one thinks is right, but once the rest of the world has heard the concern and opted to do something else, well, choices have to be made.

This is the essence - or the lesson, however you want to look at it - of the last four, five days.    (I know, I know, this is a great cause about "harm to others" and the last four days are about a hateful cause rooted in "delusion", I get it.  That's one take; but we all get to decide what issues, what hills, we die on.) 

I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it does.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 01:09:05 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 11:36:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM

Perhaps that’s the better point of clarity then .... being upset when people appear to be purposefully not caring / not wearing it properly?  Add to that the situations where they then don’t respect physical distancing, I think that’s perfectly fine to be upset about.

Also, why should I have to stay home because of the irresponsible behaviours of others?  And I don’t mean people like you that are doing their part to be as responsible as possible on this issue.

Because "tend your own garden".  We take the world the way it is, not the way we want it to be.   Replace "mask" with any of a 100 other things and it's not on the rest of the world to placate ME, I have to - if, like someone above said, 'we're all in this together' - to fit my issues/concerns/foibles/fears/desires into the world.  I get advocating for what one thinks is right, but once the rest of the world has heard the concern and opted to do something else, well, choices have to be made.

This is the essence - or the lesson, however you want to look at it - of the last four, five days.    (I know, I know, this is a great cause about "harm to others" and the last four days are about a hateful cause rooted in "delusion", I get it.  That's one take; but we all get to decide what issues, what hills, we die on.) 

I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it does.   :)

This is all I have been trying to say, basically.

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 09:25:28 AM

All fair points xizor.  Consider yourself lucky that you haven't seen anyone that was deliberately being inconsiderate and/or obstinate to the health guidelines in your area.  My thought in the situations you called out however is "we've been in this global pandemic for over 10 months now where a couple million people have died and our healthcare system is breaking.  You really should be more aware and conscious of how your actions might affect the rest of the public around you".

I get the absent minded stuff... I've inadvertently stepped up a little too close to people at the cashier in Costco.  And the more talking one does with a mask on, the more they have to adjust it to ensure it does cover their nose.  All that is understandable and forgivable.  There's lots of other stuff that isn't.

All you can do is try your best to avoid those types of situations where those types of people happen to be. It's not hard to walk away from it, might be inconvenient, but you are avoiding that risk. If they're in a business, leave it to that business to deal with it. I have noticed some business workers straight up ignore the people who are clearly violating the guidelines. Yet, nothing is done, until that one worker whom comes by and let's them know about the guidelines. I have been to businesses where they actually just don't care about the guidelines, but follow them because they need to stay open.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:10:15 PM

And if nobody is wearing masks and keeping distance, the heathcare system collapses and people can't be admitted into hospitals, because there's not enough space. "Tend your own garden" is a bullshit argument when it could potentially seriously affect others. Wearing a mask and keeping a distance is a stupidly simple enough solution that has been shown to actually matter. Not doing it for whatever reason is selfish and obstinate. Especially after almost a year, the world being locked basically and people dying every day. Do your part, and we're (the whole world) will be out of this sooner.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 09, 2021, 01:11:47 PM

Link to where anyone in this thread today is suggesting that nobody should wear a mask?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:17:06 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on January 09, 2021, 01:11:47 PM

Link to where anyone in this thread today is suggesting that nobody should wear a mask?

Link to where I'm suggesting people in this thread are suggesting that?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 01:18:23 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:10:15 PM

And if nobody is wearing masks and keeping distance, the heathcare system collapses and people can't be admitted into hospitals, because there's not enough space. "Tend your own garden" is a bullshit argument when it could potentially seriously affect others. Wearing a mask and keeping a distance is a stupidly simple enough solution that has been shown to actually matter. Not doing it for whatever reason is selfish and obstinate. Especially after almost a year, the world being locked basically and people dying every day. Do your part, and we're (the whole world) will be out of this sooner.

Are we sure of this though? Why are we so sure that if we do our part it will just go away?....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:24:24 PM

It won't 'go away'. What you're doing is making sure you don't spread it unintentionally. Stopping it spreading ensures others don't get sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 02:44:35 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:10:15 PM

And if nobody is wearing masks and keeping distance, the heathcare system collapses and people can't be admitted into hospitals, because there's not enough space. "Tend your own garden" is a bullshit argument when it could potentially seriously affect others. Wearing a mask and keeping a distance is a stupidly simple enough solution that has been shown to actually matter. Not doing it for whatever reason is selfish and obstinate. Especially after almost a year, the world being locked basically and people dying every day. Do your part, and we're (the whole world) will be out of this sooner.

Then, respectfully, you don't understand what I mean by "tend your own garden".   It amounts to the same thing, just a different mechanism.  If I'm sick and you're not, we can prevent you from getting it by wearing masks, or not being in the same space.   I can't control you, I can't make you care.  So I wear a mask when I go out, and I stay home when I can. I love going to bars; I love sitting, having a drink, and talking to people that I've never met before and will likely never speak to again.   I haven't done that since January of 2020.  I've been in a restaurant once since that same time.   Do I wish I could?  Sure; but I'm no more entitled to that space than anyone else.  Like you said, do your part.  But we've got to accept that there will ALWAYS be 10% (or whatever) that don't want to play ball.  Don't want to be tolerant, don't want to compromise, don't want to wear a mask, don't want to not be offended, don't want to accept the data (whether it's about gun control, election results or COVID transmission), whatever. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 02:45:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 11:36:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM

Perhaps that’s the better point of clarity then .... being upset when people appear to be purposefully not caring / not wearing it properly?  Add to that the situations where they then don’t respect physical distancing, I think that’s perfectly fine to be upset about.

Also, why should I have to stay home because of the irresponsible behaviours of others?  And I don’t mean people like you that are doing their part to be as responsible as possible on this issue.

Because "tend your own garden". 

If only it were that simple.  If everyone "tended to their own garden", then I probably wouldn't have much to bitch about on this matter - whether it's wearing a mask properly or keeping physical distance.  However, they don't.  Some people like to prance recklessly through others' gardens.  So, as much as I do my own part, when others don't - and it affects 'my garden' - ... yeah, I got a beef.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 02:59:17 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 02:45:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 11:36:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM

Perhaps that’s the better point of clarity then .... being upset when people appear to be purposefully not caring / not wearing it properly?  Add to that the situations where they then don’t respect physical distancing, I think that’s perfectly fine to be upset about.

Also, why should I have to stay home because of the irresponsible behaviours of others?  And I don’t mean people like you that are doing their part to be as responsible as possible on this issue.

Because "tend your own garden". 

If only it were that simple.  If everyone "tended to their own garden", then I probably wouldn't have much to bitch about on this matter - whether it's wearing a mask properly or keeping physical distance.  However, they don't.  Some people like to prance recklessly through others' gardens.  So, as much as I do my own part, when others don't - and it affects 'my garden' - ... yeah, I got a beef.

I get that; I guess I don't have any answers for you; those people aren't going to listen to "The Man" any more than they're going to listen to you.   I share your "beef", just not your outrage.  I've got a laundry list of shit that people do every day - some of which actually HARMS me - and yet... I'm just trying not to spend my day angrily pointing fingers at everyone that doesn't act like I want them to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 09, 2021, 04:21:52 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 02:59:17 PM

I get that; I guess I don't have any answers for you; those people aren't going to listen to "The Man" any more than they're going to listen to you.   I share your "beef", just not your outrage.  I've got a laundry list of shit that people do every day - some of which actually HARMS me - and yet... I'm just trying not to spend my day angrily pointing fingers at everyone that doesn't act like I want them to.

I feel this totally. I've seen a lot of shit over the last year (you guys know where I work..). People are fucking assholes, but assholes were all around before this. Getting constantly outraged will tie you into knots, and sap your strength, unless one gets off on pointing fingers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:24:24 PM

It won't 'go away'. What you're doing is making sure you don't spread it unintentionally. Stopping it spreading ensures others don't get sick.

What are the end goals that will make this go away? Mass vaccination of the world?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 09, 2021, 04:35:26 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:24:24 PM

It won't 'go away'. What you're doing is making sure you don't spread it unintentionally. Stopping it spreading ensures others don't get sick.

What are the end goals that will make this go away? Mass vaccination of the world?

I think that's the only solution other than everyone gets sick over time and we lose a large amount more of people who are vulnerable to this and the rest of the world deals with the long term consequences of having covid (which is currently unknown).  Herd immunity is the only way and we can all get vaccinated or we can all get sick.  I think the reality will be a mix of both, but we should want more vaccinations than infections. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 09, 2021, 04:38:35 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:24:24 PM

It won't 'go away'. What you're doing is making sure you don't spread it unintentionally. Stopping it spreading ensures others don't get sick.

What are the end goals that will make this go away? Mass vaccination of the world?

That, or literally every single person on the planet isolating themselves for 14 days, with no exceptions. Which is of course impossible.

Or we start to find a way to make affordable, cheap and easy to wear suits like the ones doctors are wearing. With "easy" I mean both that you can wear them without a 15 minutes precise preparation, and that you don't feel like suffocate for lack of air after 10 minutes you're outside.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 04:47:05 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 09, 2021, 04:38:35 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:24:24 PM

It won't 'go away'. What you're doing is making sure you don't spread it unintentionally. Stopping it spreading ensures others don't get sick.

What are the end goals that will make this go away? Mass vaccination of the world?

That, or literally every single person on the planet isolating themselves for 14 days, with no exceptions. Which is of course impossible.

Or we start to find a way to make affordable, cheap and easy to wear suits like the ones doctors are wearing. With "easy" I mean both that you can wear them without a 15 minutes precise preparation, and that you don't feel like suffocate for lack of air after 10 minutes you're outside.

So we are scared of Germs now...

Where's that Carlin vid....

https://youtu.be/-Y-yH_Qyipc

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 09, 2021, 05:07:14 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:17:06 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on January 09, 2021, 01:11:47 PM

Link to where anyone in this thread today is suggesting that nobody should wear a mask?

Link to where I'm suggesting people in this thread are suggesting that?

Based on the wording of your post and the several posts that preceded yours, it seemed to be a strong implication on your part.  That is how I took it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:14:12 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 02:59:17 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 02:45:59 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 11:36:41 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM

Perhaps that’s the better point of clarity then .... being upset when people appear to be purposefully not caring / not wearing it properly?  Add to that the situations where they then don’t respect physical distancing, I think that’s perfectly fine to be upset about.

Also, why should I have to stay home because of the irresponsible behaviours of others?  And I don’t mean people like you that are doing their part to be as responsible as possible on this issue.

Because "tend your own garden". 

If only it were that simple.  If everyone "tended to their own garden", then I probably wouldn't have much to bitch about on this matter - whether it's wearing a mask properly or keeping physical distance.  However, they don't.  Some people like to prance recklessly through others' gardens.  So, as much as I do my own part, when others don't - and it affects 'my garden' - ... yeah, I got a beef.

I get that; I guess I don't have any answers for you; those people aren't going to listen to "The Man" any more than they're going to listen to you.   I share your "beef", just not your outrage.  I've got a laundry list of shit that people do every day - some of which actually HARMS me - and yet... I'm just trying not to spend my day angrily pointing fingers at everyone that doesn't act like I want them to.

Well, I'm not exactly sure how you made the leap to "outrage".  This discussion started with lordxizor fed up that people "complain" about these behaviours.  Somehow complaining is now outrage?  I get annoyed and frustrated with people, and yes, I speak up.  I sometimes make snarky comments to people that are not wearing a mask properly, as well as people that get in my 6-foot bubble.  Outrage is way too strong a word.

And fwiw, I'd say it's let's than 5% of people that I encounter on the few trips I do make outside the house that I experience stuff like this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 09, 2021, 07:18:24 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 04:47:05 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 09, 2021, 04:38:35 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 09, 2021, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: Elite on January 09, 2021, 01:24:24 PM

It won't 'go away'. What you're doing is making sure you don't spread it unintentionally. Stopping it spreading ensures others don't get sick.

What are the end goals that will make this go away? Mass vaccination of the world?

That, or literally every single person on the planet isolating themselves for 14 days, with no exceptions. Which is of course impossible.

Or we start to find a way to make affordable, cheap and easy to wear suits like the ones doctors are wearing. With "easy" I mean both that you can wear them without a 15 minutes precise preparation, and that you don't feel like suffocate for lack of air after 10 minutes you're outside.

So we are scared of Germs now...

Where's that Carlin vid....

https://youtu.be/-Y-yH_Qyipc

Germs that could make me very sick, or kill me?  Yeah.

Look, let's use that Vegas shooting a few years back as an parallel example.  Lone gunman who's probably only going to hit 1% of the people at the concert, and kill even less.  Are you going to look for cover, or tell everyone to calm the fuck down cuz you can't hear the music?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 07:59:20 PM

Quote from: TAC on January 09, 2021, 04:21:52 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 09, 2021, 02:59:17 PM

I get that; I guess I don't have any answers for you; those people aren't going to listen to "The Man" any more than they're going to listen to you.   I share your "beef", just not your outrage.  I've got a laundry list of shit that people do every day - some of which actually HARMS me - and yet... I'm just trying not to spend my day angrily pointing fingers at everyone that doesn't act like I want them to.

I feel this totally. I've seen a lot of shit over the last year (you guys know where I work..). People are fucking assholes, but assholes were all around before this. Getting constantly outraged will tie you into knots, and sap your strength, unless one gets off on pointing fingers.

I certainly don't mean anyone here, but in general, there ARE people that get off on pointing fingers.  Twitter is clogged with people like that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 09, 2021, 08:25:32 PM

Well, Twitter is by and large a cesspool, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 10, 2021, 05:08:16 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 09, 2021, 06:52:58 AM

Honestly I'm getting a little fed up with people complaining about others and their non-perfect mask usage. I see it here, on Facebook, in person... all over the place. If you're going to get angry about people out in public not using their mask exactly like you think they should, perhaps you should just stay home. It's hard to wear a mask all day, or at all, for many people. I find it extremely uncomfortable and hate every second of it and though I do my best to wear it properly, I am constantly fiddling with it, which I know is supposed to be bad.

People say "we're all in this together" but then immediately judge people harshly, rant and rave about others not doing what they think they should, and in some situations verbally assault people. Yes, a small percentage of people are deliberately being assholes, but the vast majority aren't. We're all imperfect beings and everyone is struggling through this to varying degrees. We all need a little grace and understanding.

Yeah, I'm kind of weird that way, you know, when someone literally puts my life at risk because they're a low-information fucking moron, or worse because they want to "stick it to the libs" - sorry, those people can fuck straight off - do not pass "go" do not collect $200.  I'm sick and tired of assholes who don't care about anyone but themselves and I will continue to call out this ignorance when I see it.


if that makes me an asshole then I wear that label as a badge of honor.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 10, 2021, 08:47:15 AM

I get that; I think I chimed in though because it seems like now, ANYONE that doesn't wear a mask perfectly is sort of assumed to be a "a low-information fucking moron", and/or some who wants "to "stick it to the libs"".   I'm just finding that not everything has transcendent political meaning to it.   I know I'm not thrilled with how my stepsons' family is treating this, and I haven't heard even a shred of evidence that there is any political subtext to that.   They're not dumb, they're not morons, they're just lazy, and - like so many Americans - don't think past the next 30 minutes.  Sometimes "not thinking past the next 30 minutes" is pure self-absorption, and sometimes its just incapacity.  There are simply people that CANNOT/DO NOT think that way. 

Go back to the example I always give of the overweight chimney-smoking woman fighting to keep trace molecules of TCE out of the school library. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 10, 2021, 09:40:25 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 10, 2021, 05:08:16 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 09, 2021, 06:52:58 AM

Honestly I'm getting a little fed up with people complaining about others and their non-perfect mask usage. I see it here, on Facebook, in person... all over the place. If you're going to get angry about people out in public not using their mask exactly like you think they should, perhaps you should just stay home. It's hard to wear a mask all day, or at all, for many people. I find it extremely uncomfortable and hate every second of it and though I do my best to wear it properly, I am constantly fiddling with it, which I know is supposed to be bad.

People say "we're all in this together" but then immediately judge people harshly, rant and rave about others not doing what they think they should, and in some situations verbally assault people. Yes, a small percentage of people are deliberately being assholes, but the vast majority aren't. We're all imperfect beings and everyone is struggling through this to varying degrees. We all need a little grace and understanding.

Yeah, I'm kind of weird that way, you know, when someone literally puts my life at risk because they're a low-information fucking moron, or worse because they want to "stick it to the libs" - sorry, those people can fuck straight off - do not pass "go" do not collect $200.  I'm sick and tired of assholes who don't care about anyone but themselves and I will continue to call out this ignorance when I see it.


if that makes me an asshole then I wear that label as a badge of honor.

Again, you won't know that unless you actually go and speak to that person.

I get your point though. And I agree. But, for me, those are few and far between, and me, I just ignore them, and try my best to avoid these situations where these people gather. And I won't get myself worked up and making myself get stressed over someone that is a Low-information fucking moron or "give it to the libs" person, and will continue to be that asshole and I have no control over changing that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 10, 2021, 10:11:51 AM

It's easy to think we should all be vigilante 100% of the time when out in public right now given the pandemic, but it's easy to get comfortable and lose yourself for a minute here and there.  I was at a local BBQ place last week getting some quick takeout, and this older couple was ahead of me in the line to get your sauces and drink, and even though there was a sign there clearly explaining to let the employee get everything (to-go sauces, silverware, straws, etc.) for you, when that person was turned and refilling someone else's drink real quick, the husband without even thinking about it reached out and grabbed a straw for his drink and started to go for a sauce when the employee turned back on around and nicely said, "Sir, let me get those for you," and was like, "oops, my bad, I forgot," and you could tell it wasn't BS.  He just reached for them out of instinct. It wasn't because he wanted to be an asshole who wasn't going to be told to what to do or because he was wanting to make the libs look bad (he wasn't wearing any MAGA clothing or hat :lol); he simply did what all of us 99.999% of the time.  And he and his wife were both wearing masks (as was I, of course).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 10, 2021, 10:37:13 AM

Situations like that are totally understandable.  It’s the person who insists on continuing, then gets confrontational, while wearing the mask over EDIT: UNDER their nose - those are who I have an issue with. Fortunately (at least around here) those are few and far between.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 10, 2021, 10:46:08 AM

It's worth noting we live in a society that promotes conflict, that promotes standing your ground.   Road rage is the epitome of that (even when road rage is endangering all those around the cars in question).  Almost all of reality TV is predicted on people that are too (pick one or more) selfish, insecure, dumb, or desperate for affirmation to recognize when it's best to stand down and go with the flow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on January 10, 2021, 12:42:14 PM

That is very true. Far too many have too much pride/attitude/arrogance nowadays and feel the always have to stand their ground rather than just letting something inconsequential go and moving on, and doing it in situations where escalation could be potentially harmful just seems stupid to me.  It's like giving someone the finger on the road.  Sure, it might make you feel better for two seconds, but you run the risk of that person being a nutjob who might to try to run you off the road or whip out a pistol and start firing.  Sure, those extreme reactions are, well, extremely unlikely, but why risk it?  If someone cuts me off in traffic or dicks around at a light too long to where I miss the green when I am in a hurry, sure, I might curse to myself and rage on the inside for a second or two, but I am just not something who will act out and give them the finger or let any kind of road rage kick in.  Better to laugh it off since there is nothing I can do about and move on.  Social media and the internet have probably not helped in this regard, as for many, "winning" is all that matters online, and that can translate to real life* as well.

*THE INTERNET IS NOT REAL LIFE  :biggrin: :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on January 10, 2021, 03:49:54 PM

Is it just fantasy? :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 11, 2021, 03:32:49 AM

Yeah, no, this is life and death.  Anyone who gets near me who isn't wearing their mask or is not wearing it correctly is going to hear about it from me.  I'm polite about it, until they aren't.  Then all bets are off.  I don't go around looking for conflict.  In fact I tend to isolate, but when some fucking moron comes near me with his mask down around his chin and he rolls his eyes when I ask him to wear it properly, well, that person deserves every bit of derision and disrespect I give them.  Again, this is life and death. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on January 11, 2021, 04:00:01 AM

So, our three day lockdown got lifted which is no surprise but masks pretty much mandatory for an extra 10 days, which is fine, however in outdoor areas you don't need them if you are social distancing.  Not really confident in that from the masses in my area of work but we'll see.

First time today I wore a mask and it was just to go in and pay for fuel.  What a surreal and quite frankly awful feeling.  I feel for everyone else having to had wear them for so long lately, but I guess like anything you get used to it.  It felt strange indeed and the world is definitely changing.

Oh well, I guess Scorpion and Sub Zero saw something in it so I'll happily persist.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 11, 2021, 06:16:15 AM

Coronavirus is the new MK Fatality.

FINISH HIM!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on January 11, 2021, 12:03:46 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 11, 2021, 03:32:49 AM

Yeah, no, this is life and death.  Anyone who gets near me who isn't wearing their mask or is not wearing it correctly is going to hear about it from me.  I'm polite about it, until they aren't.  Then all bets are off.  I don't go around looking for conflict.  In fact I tend to isolate, but when some fucking moron comes near me with his mask down around his chin and he rolls his eyes when I ask him to wear it properly, well, that person deserves every bit of derision and disrespect I give them.  Again, this is life and death. 

I'm with you.  They are endangering others, and they are doing it because they would rather put other people's lives at risk than inconvenience themselves.  That is the very definition of selfishness, putting yourself above others to the point where you don't even care that harm could come to them.  Fuck those people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 11, 2021, 12:04:54 PM

Quote from: Orbert on January 11, 2021, 12:03:46 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 11, 2021, 03:32:49 AM

Yeah, no, this is life and death.  Anyone who gets near me who isn't wearing their mask or is not wearing it correctly is going to hear about it from me.  I'm polite about it, until they aren't.  Then all bets are off.  I don't go around looking for conflict.  In fact I tend to isolate, but when some fucking moron comes near me with his mask down around his chin and he rolls his eyes when I ask him to wear it properly, well, that person deserves every bit of derision and disrespect I give them.  Again, this is life and death. 

I'm with you.  They are endangering others, and they are doing it because they would rather put other people's lives at risk than inconvenience themselves.  That is the very definition of selfishness, putting yourself above others to the point where you don't even care that harm could come to them.  Fuck those people.

While I agree, engaging with such people is just not worth it IMO.  I keep my distance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 11, 2021, 12:42:51 PM

Another casualty of the pandemic:  My album is being mixed by Lee Abraham, who lives in England, where they are completely locked down right now.  This is probably going to add a month or two onto our schedule  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 11, 2021, 12:50:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnoseha ir on January 11, 2021, 12:42:51 PM

Another casualty of the pandemic:  My album is being mixed by Lee Abraham, who lives in England, where they are completely locked down right now.  This is probably going to add a month or two onto our schedule  :(

 >:( :censored :sad:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 11, 2021, 01:05:07 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 11, 2021, 12:42:51 PM

Another casualty of the pandemic:  My album is being mixed by Lee Abraham, who lives in England, where they are completely locked down right now.  This is probably going to add a month or two onto our schedule  :(

That sucks.  Does he need access to his equipment?   How does that work logistically; do you "email files" or send literal tapes?  Not questioning you, just curious how it works.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 11, 2021, 02:05:21 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 11, 2021, 01:05:07 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 11, 2021, 12:42:51 PM

Another casualty of the pandemic:  My album is being mixed by Lee Abraham, who lives in England, where they are completely locked down right now.  This is probably going to add a month or two onto our schedule  :(

That sucks.  Does he need access to his equipment?   How does that work logistically; do you "email files" or send literal tapes?  Not questioning you, just curious how it works.

It's pretty simple really.  We're both using ProTools 10.  I send him my entire session for each song using a service called "WeTransfer.com" and he imports it into his studio rig.  The soloists like Brick send me their audio, which I forward along to Lee.  Same with Jimmy Keegan's drums. 

It's not that he doesn't have access to his equipment.  His studio is in a building behind his house.  It's just that with everything going on his entire family ALSO just came down with the flu - a particularly bad flu.  It's not Covid-19, they all tested negative 3 times.  It's just the regular flu, but a very bad one, so they've been very sick for the last couple of weeks and Lee is also having to take care of his elderly mother. 

It's OK, I kind of expected this when the pandemic hit.  We'll get there eventually.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 11, 2021, 03:22:57 PM

HAHA, love the picture. 

I hope you do too.  As I said I wasn't questioning, just curious how it all worked.  I'm sure you've heard the tales of the 70's where Steven Tyler left master tapes in the back of a cab in New York City and shit like that (it was actually lyrics, to Rocks, but you get the point).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 12, 2021, 03:15:53 AM

Yep, I get what you're saying.  Something kind of similar to that Rocks lyrics thing happened to me when I first started writing the music for the album.  I had the first song completed and it was killer.  Then the external USB drive that I store all my projects on died.  I lost that track and had to start over from scratch.  It never quite became the song it originally was as a result.  Lesson learned, though.  My studio rig is now connected to the cloud at all times.  The minute I record something it's already uploading to the cloud.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 12, 2021, 06:17:40 PM

Kirk avatar is back! But... is it the same one?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 12, 2021, 07:29:40 PM

I don't think so... wasn't Kirk yelling in the old one? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on January 12, 2021, 08:36:16 PM

KHAN!!



KHAN!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 12, 2021, 09:59:06 PM

kirk's avatar is giving me flashbacks to the old MP forum.

Well, got my chaser vaccine scheduled for lunch on the 26th. Looking forward to getting protected. Although, I am hearing from coworkers that the second dose comes with more side-effects. Granted, they all got the Pfizer vaccine and I am on the Moderna one. Hopefully, it's not too bad. Heck, the shoulder pain from my flu shot was worse and longer than my first Covid dose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 12, 2021, 10:40:35 PM

Good luck!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 13, 2021, 03:09:15 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 12, 2021, 07:29:40 PM

I don't think so... wasn't Kirk yelling in the old one?

It seems that animated GIF avatars don't animate on this forum

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on January 13, 2021, 04:09:40 AM

Getting my first dose this morning.

Reading that there is concern about some mutant variant from Africa and the vaccine may not be effective against it. The news just keeps getting better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on January 13, 2021, 07:06:12 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 13, 2021, 03:09:15 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 12, 2021, 07:29:40 PM

I don't think so... wasn't Kirk yelling in the old one?

It seems that animated GIF avatars don't animate on this forum

Yes they do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on January 13, 2021, 07:07:04 AM

Much to our delight :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 13, 2021, 07:39:44 AM

RJ looking up into my eyes. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 13, 2021, 09:59:19 AM

Quote from: emtee on January 13, 2021, 04:09:40 AM

Getting my first dose this morning.

Reading that there is concern about some mutant variant from Africa and the vaccine may not be effective against it. The news just keeps getting better.

I've read the opposite, but it's still somewhat unknown I believe.  They do expect the vaccine to be effective against the current mutations (UK and South Africa), but who knows about next years mutations.

Also, I see Fauci and others are saying we need to not be so restrictive on who gets the vaccine first because that's creating a choking point in getting the vaccines out.  I'm starting to think that even though Florida is like the wild wild west, their path of anyone over 65 can get it, might make the most sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 13, 2021, 10:00:39 AM

I read that the UK mutation isn't different in regards to the vaccine but that the South African one might be resistant to it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 13, 2021, 11:07:17 AM

Quote from: lonestar on January 13, 2021, 07:06:12 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 13, 2021, 03:09:15 AM

Quote from: Stadler on January 12, 2021, 07:29:40 PM

I don't think so... wasn't Kirk yelling in the old one?

It seems that animated GIF avatars don't animate on this forum

Yes they do.

indeed  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 13, 2021, 11:42:10 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 13, 2021, 09:59:19 AM

Also, I see Fauci and others are saying we need to not be so restrictive on who gets the vaccine first because that's creating a choking point in getting the vaccines out.  I'm starting to think that even though Florida is like the wild wild west, their path of anyone over 65 can get it, might make the most sense.

And just now our NJ governor is saying anyone over 65 or over 16 with underlying health issues can sign up for the vaccine.  This is a good move IMO.  Just start letting the flood gates open.  It'll probably be very hectic but in time it'll settle into a flow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on January 13, 2021, 04:08:26 PM

So far so good. No adverse effects from the shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 13, 2021, 04:32:33 PM

Quote from: emtee on January 13, 2021, 04:08:26 PM

So far so good. No adverse effects from the shot.

 :tup

So my Aunt got her first shot and had a really bad rash, so my Uncle who is a Dr is saying she should not get the second shot. I don't know the details of the rash, my mom says it was bad but is already fine however my understanding is the second shot is the one with the worse side effects (if any) so maybe that makes sense to not get the 2nd one if you already get an allergic reaction.  However, apparently even one dose has ~50% effectiveness so at least she was able to get that.  I believe my Uncle got the first shot too and was fine.

It is really nice to hear people I know more and more getting vaccinated though.  Of course there's people rejecting it, but that just means it's one person closer to me being able to get it and I really want to be vaccinated and start to feel more comfortable about my own situation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 13, 2021, 06:29:19 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 13, 2021, 04:32:33 PM

Quote from: emtee on January 13, 2021, 04:08:26 PM

So far so good. No adverse effects from the shot.

 :tup

So my Aunt got her first shot and had a really bad rash, so my Uncle who is a Dr is saying she should not get the second shot. I don't know the details of the rash, my mom says it was bad but is already fine however my understanding is the second shot is the one with the worse side effects (if any) so maybe that makes sense to not get the 2nd one if you already get an allergic reaction.  However, apparently even one dose has ~50% effectiveness so at least she was able to get that.  I believe my Uncle got the first shot too and was fine.

It is really nice to hear people I know more and more getting vaccinated though.  Of course there's people rejecting it, but that just means it's one person closer to me being able to get it and I really want to be vaccinated and start to feel more comfortable about my own situation.

This is how I am seeing it. And if getting the vaccine makes you feel more safe from the virus than by all means go ahead and get it. I won't, but I won't tell people not to get it. That is not my choice to make.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 03:10:25 AM

The singer in my covers band got her first shot last week and it put her down for about 5 days.   :mehlin   She's better now but they told her the side effects from the 2nd shot will be even more intense  :|


I fucking hate needles, which is weird when you consider I'm a reformed heroin addict - of course, it's been over 30 years since I used a needle on myself, but I still hate them, even when I get blood drawn it stresses me the fuck out.  So I'm not looking forward to the vaccine, but the MINUTE it's available to me I will be in line to get it.  I've got too many underlying health conditions to avoid it.  My doctor tells me I am in the highest risk category if I get Covid-19 because of my hypertension, anemia and stage 3 liver cirrhosis.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 05:36:50 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 03:10:25 AM

The singer in my covers band got her first shot last week and it put her down for about 5 days.   :mehlin   She's better now but they told her the side effects from the 2nd shot will be even more intense  :|


I fucking hate needles, which is weird when you consider I'm a reformed heroin addict - of course, it's been over 30 years since I used a needle on myself, but I still hate them, even when I get blood drawn it stresses me the fuck out.  So I'm not looking forward to the vaccine, but the MINUTE it's available to me I will be in line to get it.  I've got too many underlying health conditions to avoid it.  My doctor tells me I am in the highest risk category if I get Covid-19 because of my hypertension, anemia and stage 3 liver cirrhosis.

That should be the title of The Anabasis' metal album in a few years.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 14, 2021, 05:37:04 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 13, 2021, 06:29:19 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 13, 2021, 04:32:33 PM

Quote from: emtee on January 13, 2021, 04:08:26 PM

So far so good. No adverse effects from the shot.

 :tup

So my Aunt got her first shot and had a really bad rash, so my Uncle who is a Dr is saying she should not get the second shot. I don't know the details of the rash, my mom says it was bad but is already fine however my understanding is the second shot is the one with the worse side effects (if any) so maybe that makes sense to not get the 2nd one if you already get an allergic reaction.  However, apparently even one dose has ~50% effectiveness so at least she was able to get that.  I believe my Uncle got the first shot too and was fine.

It is really nice to hear people I know more and more getting vaccinated though.  Of course there's people rejecting it, but that just means it's one person closer to me being able to get it and I really want to be vaccinated and start to feel more comfortable about my own situation.

This is how I am seeing it. And if getting the vaccine makes you feel more safe from the virus than by all means go ahead and get it. I won't, but I won't tell people not to get it. That is not my choice to make.

This makes it sound like you think vaccines only work by the placebo effect. The vaccine makes people feel safe because it actually makes people safe. Do you think we just "felt" polio out of existence?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 14, 2021, 08:12:25 AM

Flu rates for 2020 were the lowest they've been in recorded history. Just goes to show that 1) social distancing, shutdowns, and masks mitigate the spread of pathogens and 2) Covid is really contagious and resilient as hell.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/what-happened-flu-season-doctors-say-flu-cases-are-lowest-recorded-history/Q3RZ2GYKYVHRTGSYP2VFKALV64/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on January 14, 2021, 09:12:09 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

In order to continue with the restrictions that help exactly no one and screw everyone over, both the people suffering those restrictions and the politicians implementing them whose popularity will plummet?

Yeah, sounds like a good plan.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 09:13:33 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

But they'd still have to test positive to be counted. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 14, 2021, 09:26:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 09:13:33 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

But they'd still have to test positive to be counted.

Do we even have a flu test available to the masses?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 14, 2021, 09:32:01 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 14, 2021, 09:26:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 09:13:33 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

But they'd still have to test positive to be counted.

Do we even have a flu test available to the masses?

Yes. Literally anyone can walk into a CVS and get tested.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 09:35:02 AM

I wasn't sure if that was even a serious question, flu testing has been around as long as I can remember.

I even know one person who had covid symptoms, tested negative for covid but then tested positive for the flu.  I'm sure it's fairly common actually because the symptoms are similar. But I don't see how the flu would raise the covid positivity count.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 14, 2021, 11:24:06 AM

Quote from: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 05:36:50 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 03:10:25 AM

The singer in my covers band got her first shot last week and it put her down for about 5 days.   :mehlin   She's better now but they told her the side effects from the 2nd shot will be even more intense  :|


I fucking hate needles, which is weird when you consider I'm a reformed heroin addict - of course, it's been over 30 years since I used a needle on myself, but I still hate them, even when I get blood drawn it stresses me the fuck out.  So I'm not looking forward to the vaccine, but the MINUTE it's available to me I will be in line to get it.  I've got too many underlying health conditions to avoid it.  My doctor tells me I am in the highest risk category if I get Covid-19 because of my hypertension, anemia and stage 3 liver cirrhosis.

That should be the title of The Anabasis' metal album in a few years.

Sorry, Barry, I don't mean to laugh AT you (just laugh WITH you) but that's kind of funny.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 11:41:52 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on January 14, 2021, 09:12:09 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

In order to continue with the restrictions that help exactly no one and screw everyone over, both the people suffering those restrictions and the politicians implementing them whose popularity will plummet?

Yeah, sounds like a good plan.

For the record, I was joking if that's wasn't obvious. But those same people who believe what I said think that this is all a massive left wing conspiracy to strip us of our rights and implement their socialist government.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 01:12:59 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 09:13:33 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

But they'd still have to test positive to be counted.

Silly boy, conspiracy theories don't care about your facts  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 14, 2021, 01:55:47 PM

Quote from: Chino on January 14, 2021, 09:32:01 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 14, 2021, 09:26:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 09:13:33 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on January 14, 2021, 09:04:02 AM

Or... *puts on conspiracy theory hat*... Flu cases are being counted as Covid in order to drive up the numbers.  :-*

But they'd still have to test positive to be counted.

Do we even have a flu test available to the masses?

Yes. Literally anyone can walk into a CVS and get tested.

I meant, as a take home test, like we have for covid now. Or the cause for testing that we have for covid.

I honestly, did not know they had that, I know of the flu shots.

I guess, I never noticed about it, and the older ones never did too, I am now wondering if it is just our generation that is worried about this, and those ones are not as worried, because they weren't worried about the flu or the other ones, from what I have seen in my area. Until now, when the ones in charge of the health system said so, is when they began to care more. It's what I find odd about this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 02:09:08 PM

I really don't know anyone who is worried about the flu generally, maybe the very old population who is more susceptible.  I don't think, and maybe I'm wrong, that most people get the flu shot because they are scared or worried about the flu, I just think they don't want to be sick for a week potentially.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 02:32:24 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 14, 2021, 02:09:08 PM

I really don't know anyone who is worried about the flu generally, maybe the very old population who is more susceptible.  I don't think, and maybe I'm wrong, that most people get the flu shot because they are scared or worried about the flu, I just think they don't want to be sick for a week potentially.

I've learned to be afraid.

My brother-in-law caught the flu in November of 2015. He was intubated, in a coma, and on a breathing machine for three weeks. After he revived, he was on oxygen for two years, lost 30% of his cognitive capacity, lost his job as chief pharmacist at a major hospital in his community, went on disability, had a couple of years of physical therapy to regain some lung capacity, and my sister had to get a second job (she's a music teacher by trade) selling shoes at a department store to make ends meet. They're actually pretty lucky to not be homeless right now. It took community intervention to take care of their medical debt...and they had good health insurance by most American's standards.

Joyfully get your flu shots, people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 02:37:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 14, 2021, 11:24:06 AM

Quote from: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 05:36:50 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 03:10:25 AM

*snip* hypertension, anemia and stage 3 liver cirrhosis.

That should be the title of The Anabasis' metal album in a few years.

Sorry, Barry, I don't mean to laugh AT you (just laugh WITH you) but that's kind of funny.

Yeah, just in case it wasn't clear, I was also trying to crack you up, Barry. No offense intended.  :blush

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 02:58:01 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 14, 2021, 11:24:06 AM

Quote from: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 05:36:50 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 03:10:25 AM

The singer in my covers band got her first shot last week and it put her down for about 5 days.   :mehlin   She's better now but they told her the side effects from the 2nd shot will be even more intense  :|


I fucking hate needles, which is weird when you consider I'm a reformed heroin addict - of course, it's been over 30 years since I used a needle on myself, but I still hate them, even when I get blood drawn it stresses me the fuck out.  So I'm not looking forward to the vaccine, but the MINUTE it's available to me I will be in line to get it.  I've got too many underlying health conditions to avoid it.  My doctor tells me I am in the highest risk category if I get Covid-19 because of my hypertension, anemia and stage 3 liver cirrhosis.

That should be the title of The Anabasis' metal album in a few years.

Sorry, Barry, I don't mean to laugh AT you (just laugh WITH you) but that's kind of funny.

No worries, it cracked me up too  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 02:58:30 PM

Quote from: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 02:37:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 14, 2021, 11:24:06 AM

Quote from: Podaar on January 14, 2021, 05:36:50 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 14, 2021, 03:10:25 AM

*snip* hypertension, anemia and stage 3 liver cirrhosis.

That should be the title of The Anabasis' metal album in a few years.

Sorry, Barry, I don't mean to laugh AT you (just laugh WITH you) but that's kind of funny.

Yeah, just in case it wasn't clear, I was also trying to crack you up, Barry. No offense intended.  :blush

none taken, I assure you.   :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 06:53:26 AM

It's been a rough couple weeks at my work.  The companies protocol is if you have any symptoms you quarantine for 10 days (paid).  I'm in a refinery and my process unit is the largest in the yard.  We have 40 Operators and as of yesterday 19 were out on quarantine.  Of those 19 I've heard that at least 12 have tested positive.  I woke up two Sundays ago with a slight fever so I quarantined for the 10 days.  I tested twice since and did the antibody test, all negative thank god.  On Wednesday we lost one of my dear friends and coworker of 20 years to this disease.  He was only 38 but not in the best health (Bad diabetes).  My company, being considered a frontline company is going to start vaccinating at work in the very near future.  They are now testing at work also.  After seeing the last couple weeks at work,  I'll be one of the first in line for vaccination.  Especially because I'm high risk, 57 with heart disease  and borderline diabetic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 15, 2021, 09:10:35 AM

Well, this is scary.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-lungs-scarring-smokers-lungs/

Looking forward to my second dose on the 26th more than ever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 15, 2021, 09:16:19 AM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 06:53:26 AM

It's been a rough couple weeks at my work.  The companies protocol is if you have any symptoms you quarantine for 10 days (paid).  I'm in a refinery and my process unit is the largest in the yard.  We have 40 Operators and as of yesterday 19 were out on quarantine.  Of those 19 I've heard that at least 12 have tested positive.  I woke up two Sundays ago with a slight fever so I quarantined for the 10 days.  I tested twice since and did the antibody test, all negative thank god.  On Wednesday we lost one of my dear friends and coworker of 20 years to this disease.  He was only 38 but not in the best health (Bad diabetes).  My company, being considered a frontline company is going to start vaccinating at work in the very near future.  They are now testing at work also.  After seeing the last couple weeks at work,  I'll be one of the first in line for vaccination.  Especially because I'm high risk, 57 with heart disease  and borderline diabetic.

Damn thats terrible, sorry for your loss and for the hectic work environment over there.

So my boss asked for volunteers to travel to Denver for a couple weeks.  The company won't force anyone to travel so they are asking if you volunteer you have to waive rights.... fuck that.  I don't know why my two coworkers both jumped at the opportunity, but no thanks.  Once they say "waive rights" FUCK NO.  It's just a job at the end of the day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 09:40:05 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 15, 2021, 09:16:19 AM

Damn thats terrible, sorry for your loss and for the hectic work environment over there.

So my boss asked for volunteers to travel to Denver for a couple weeks.  The company won't force anyone to travel so they are asking if you volunteer you have to waive rights.... fuck that.  I don't know why my two coworkers both jumped at the opportunity, but no thanks.  Once they say "waive rights" FUCK NO.  It's just a job at the end of the day.

What do you mean by waive rights?  Whatever it is I'm with you, fuck that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 15, 2021, 09:40:57 AM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 09:40:05 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 15, 2021, 09:16:19 AM

Damn thats terrible, sorry for your loss and for the hectic work environment over there.

So my boss asked for volunteers to travel to Denver for a couple weeks.  The company won't force anyone to travel so they are asking if you volunteer you have to waive rights.... fuck that.  I don't know why my two coworkers both jumped at the opportunity, but no thanks.  Once they say "waive rights" FUCK NO.  It's just a job at the end of the day.

What do you mean by waive rights?  Whatever it is I'm with you, fuck that.

I didn't volunteer so the waiver was not passed to me, but I think it just means if I get sick I can't sue the company or anything.  Essentially putting the risk on myself, not the company. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 09:47:29 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 15, 2021, 09:40:57 AM

I didn't volunteer so the waiver was not passed to me, but I think it just means if I get sick I can't sue the company or anything.  Essentially putting the risk on myself, not the company.

Reminds me of my Navy days and the acronym... Never Again Volunteer Yourself.......  Volunteer being the operative word.. :lol

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 15, 2021, 09:10:35 AM

Well, this is scary.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-lungs-scarring-smokers-lungs/

Looking forward to my second dose on the 26th more than ever.

Man, that is scary.  Shit, I was a 2-3 pack a day smoker for 32 years, I quit 8 years ago.  I don't need anything to help screw my lungs up. Another reason to avoid this horrible disease.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 15, 2021, 10:02:07 AM

I'M WITH YOU 100% ON YOUR CHOICE.  I would hope this goes without saying, and I likely would have made the same choice myself.

But, for anyone else in this situation, it's only fair to say that you likely aren't waiving anything substantial.   Absent COVID, if you went to Denver and picked up the flu, or the common cold, I'm not sure you'd have a great claim against the company, unless they did something egregious and unusual that contributed to your being sick (this is state-by-state, in involves multiple governing bodies and statutes, so any clear bright like rule is impossible).  Here, I think they're less saying "you're on your own, bitches" than basically saying "look, we don't want to spend millions of dollars on lawyers defending test cases on this unique thing called "COVID" from every employee we have that ultimately gets sick through no fault of our own".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 15, 2021, 12:25:27 PM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 09:47:29 AM

Reminds me of my Navy days and the acronym... Never Again Volunteer Yourself.......  Volunteer being the operative word.. :lol

Heard in the mess hall @ Great Lakes Naval Base - Bootcamp side- on the morning of April 17, 1982:  sung to the tune of Ring Around The Rosy: "Raisin, raisin, don't be blue, my recruiter was an asshole too!" 

Back then they sometimes referred to the base as "Great Mistakes" instead of "Great Lakes" :rollin


I remember thinking on that first morning when they woke us up at 3:30am, 3 hours after they had let us go to sleep the night before, "what the fuck have I done?"  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 12:47:15 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 15, 2021, 12:25:27 PM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 09:47:29 AM

Reminds me of my Navy days and the acronym... Never Again Volunteer Yourself.......  Volunteer being the operative word.. :lol

Heard in the mess hall @ Great Lakes Naval Base - Bootcamp side- on the morning of April 17, 1982:  sung to the tune of Ring Around The Rosy: "Raisin, raisin, don't be blue, my recruiter was an asshole too!" 

Back then they sometimes referred to the base as "Great Mistakes" instead of "Great Lakes" :rollin


I remember thinking on that first morning when they woke us up at 3:30am, 3 hours after they had let us go to sleep the night before, "what the fuck have I done?"  :facepalm:

Febuary 1981, San Diego RTC for me!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on January 15, 2021, 02:33:23 PM

Yeah...July 1988, San Diego MCRD for me.  :semperfi:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 15, 2021, 03:55:44 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on January 15, 2021, 02:33:23 PM

Yeah...July 1988, San Diego MCRD for me.  :semperfi:

I'm seeing a pattern here Bosky... Rams vs. Niners,  Navy vs. Marines..... :lol

My Dad was in the Corp in the mid 50's.  Pretty sure he did his basic in San Diego also.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 16, 2021, 09:42:44 AM

Thank you all for your service.   Seriously.   My stepson gets a little tired sometimes of hearing that, and I understand that, but the reality is, it's a sacrifice and with less reward than some of the other sacrifices that get made in life each day.

At least by me, it's very much appreciated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 17, 2021, 10:21:22 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Felt okay until half way through the night. Arm is much more sore, body aches, slight nausea, probably a fever though I haven’t checked. Wife had severe chills overnight and her arm is much more sore than mine. This is all supposed to be normal and proof the body is identifying what it needs too.

As long as it only lingers for the 24-48 hour time frame we should be good to go.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 18, 2021, 03:12:38 AM

Hopefully you'll feel better today  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 18, 2021, 09:20:17 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 17, 2021, 10:21:22 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Felt okay until half way through the night. Arm is much more sore, body aches, slight nausea, probably a fever though I haven’t checked. Wife had severe chills overnight and her arm is much more sore than mine. This is all supposed to be normal and proof the body is identifying what it needs too.

As long as it only lingers for the 24-48 hour time frame we should be good to go.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 18, 2021, 03:12:38 AM

Hopefully you'll feel better today  :)

Yup, hopefully it passes quickly, but please keep us up to date.  It's good to hear first hand experiences.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 18, 2021, 10:04:16 AM

Update.

I got the second dose on Saturday at 2:45pm. Felt fine all of Saturday night, but around 4am Sunday morning both my wife and I started feeling bad. Severe body aches, chills, fever and nausea. All day Sunday wasn’t good, I had no appetite although my wife did. I kept going from hot to cold and I had pretty bad joint pain. Went to bed Sunday night and became so nauseous I threw up. I couldn’t fall asleep as my mind was going a million miles an hour as if I had 100 energy drinks. My wife said I fell asleep as if a switch was flipped, I just crashed. I pretty much slept through the night with no issues.

Woke up Monday and the chills were gone but still had body aches, though not as severe. I’ve eaten breakfast and feel better overall.

If or when you are able to get vaccinated I’d strongly suggest making sure you give yourself a day off after the second dose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on January 18, 2021, 10:47:14 AM

Dang. Nothing like getting sick to keep from getting sick(er).

Not looking forward to my 2nd dose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 18, 2021, 10:59:32 AM

Remind us again... Pfizer or Moderna?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 18, 2021, 11:02:45 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 18, 2021, 10:59:32 AM

Remind us again... Pfizer or Moderna?

We got the Pfizer

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 18, 2021, 11:08:11 AM

I will be getting the second dose of the Moderna vax on 1/26. Hoping it's not as bad as the Pfizer. Been hearing similar reports from my co-workers who have all gotten the Pfizer. I was the first to get the Moderna so I have nothing to go on regarding second dose reactions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 18, 2021, 11:09:10 AM

Quote from: emtee on January 18, 2021, 10:47:14 AM

Dang. Nothing like getting sick to keep from getting sick(er).

Not looking forward to my 2nd dose.

Just remember everyone reacts different. I know a handful of others that have gotten the second dose and didn’t have as a severe reaction as I did, one didn’t have as much as a sore shoulder.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 18, 2021, 11:43:33 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 18, 2021, 10:04:16 AM

Update.

I got the second dose on Saturday at 2:45pm. Felt fine all of Saturday night, but around 4am Sunday morning both my wife and I started feeling bad. Severe body aches, chills, fever and nausea. All day Sunday wasn’t good, I had no appetite although my wife did. I kept going from hot to cold and I had pretty bad joint pain. Went to bed Sunday night and became so nauseous I threw up. I couldn’t fall asleep as my mind was going a million miles an hour as if I had 100 energy drinks. My wife said I fell asleep as if a switch was flipped, I just crashed. I pretty much slept through the night with no issues.

Woke up Monday and the chills were gone but still had body aches, though not as severe. I’ve eaten breakfast and feel better overall.

If or when you are able to get vaccinated I’d strongly suggest making sure you give yourself a day off after the second dose.

Thanks for the info!  Sorry it was a lil rough for you guys.  Was talking to a RN friend who works in a SoCal hospital.  She says she will ONLY take the Moderna.  She says the Pfiser is really not as "Hearty" of a vaccine.  She say's it has a very short window to vaccinate due to the fact it has to basically be kept frozen.  Once thawed you have like a 20 min window to use.  The Moderna isn't required to be as cold, 20c compared to 70c she says, and is heartier.  This was the first I had heard of any such issues with pfiser.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 18, 2021, 11:53:57 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 18, 2021, 11:09:10 AM

Quote from: emtee on January 18, 2021, 10:47:14 AM

Dang. Nothing like getting sick to keep from getting sick(er).

Not looking forward to my 2nd dose.

Just remember everyone reacts different. I know a handful of others that have gotten the second dose and didn’t have as a severe reaction as I did, one didn’t have as much as a sore shoulder.

I had a work colleague participate in the Pfizer trials, and he said one of the doses was tantamount to a REALLY bad hangover that lasted for about 24 hours.  Seems to be not an uncommon occurrence. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 18, 2021, 01:25:03 PM

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on January 18, 2021, 11:43:33 AM

Quote from: T-ski on January 18, 2021, 10:04:16 AM

Update.

I got the second dose on Saturday at 2:45pm. Felt fine all of Saturday night, but around 4am Sunday morning both my wife and I started feeling bad. Severe body aches, chills, fever and nausea. All day Sunday wasn’t good, I had no appetite although my wife did. I kept going from hot to cold and I had pretty bad joint pain. Went to bed Sunday night and became so nauseous I threw up. I couldn’t fall asleep as my mind was going a million miles an hour as if I had 100 energy drinks. My wife said I fell asleep as if a switch was flipped, I just crashed. I pretty much slept through the night with no issues.

Woke up Monday and the chills were gone but still had body aches, though not as severe. I’ve eaten breakfast and feel better overall.

If or when you are able to get vaccinated I’d strongly suggest making sure you give yourself a day off after the second dose.

Thanks for the info!  Sorry it was a lil rough for you guys.  Was talking to a RN friend who works in a SoCal hospital.  She says she will ONLY take the Moderna.  She says the Pfiser is really not as "Hearty" of a vaccine.  She say's it has a very short window to vaccinate due to the fact it has to basically be kept frozen.  Once thawed you have like a 20 min window to use.  The Moderna isn't required to be as cold, 20c compared to 70c she says, and is heartier.  This was the first I had heard of any such issues with pfiser.

This is why I am going to tough it out and wait until more is known and when others besides these two companies are available. I do hope people are seeing their doctor before getting this Vaccine, to actually see how their health is currently, and if anything has changed to where this vaccine puts them more at risk for developing a serious side effect, or developed an allergy to an ingredient.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 18, 2021, 01:35:26 PM

Well, I don't know about anyone else but I kind of like being alive so as soon as either of the currently available vaccines is accessible to me I'll be getting it.  All of the reported side effects in the clinical trials were relatively minor so I'm not even a little bit concerned.  I have better odds of being hit by a bus than I do of dying from a Coronavirus Vaccine.  But getting the virus is an absolute crap shoot.  None of us have any way of knowing how the virus would affect us.  But we have clinical trials of 10's of thousands of people who all generally tolerated the vaccines quite handily.  If you don't want to take it, don't take it, but saying you're not going to take it because you might have a bad reaction is like saying "I'm not going outside of my house because I might be struck by lightning" or "I'm not going to the baseball game because one of the batters might lose his grip on the bat when he swings it and it might hit me on the head and kill me!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 18, 2021, 01:49:32 PM

Barry, I'm with you on that; I'm not sure there's even ONE death here in the States directly and causally related to the COVID vaccines (there is an ongoing investigation into 23 people from Norway who have since passed after receiving the vaccine, but no causal relationship has been reached yet).

We - humans, not anyone specifically here - are proven to not be that good at parsing out relative risks when there are time and distance variables (meaning, the risks take different times to manifest, and the chain of causation is different).   I'm not suggesting I'm any better than anyone else in that way, but I do think I'm slightly less prone to analysis paralysis.  I'm not suggesting I won't have some concerns (I'll cop to being more than zero scared) but knowing what I know now, I will get the vaccine when made available to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on January 18, 2021, 02:09:05 PM

The reports I'm getting from colleagues at the hospital is that the side effects from Pfizer are way worse than Moderna. Fortunately I received Moderna.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 18, 2021, 02:16:08 PM

It’s now been 48 hours since the second dose, I’d say I’m about 85-90% back to normal. Wife says she feels absolutely normal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 18, 2021, 02:28:27 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 18, 2021, 01:49:32 PM

Barry, I'm with you on that; I'm not sure there's even ONE death here in the States directly and causally related to the COVID vaccines (there is an ongoing investigation into 23 people from Norway who have since passed after receiving the vaccine, but no causal relationship has been reached yet).

We - humans, not anyone specifically here - are proven to not be that good at parsing out relative risks when there are time and distance variables (meaning, the risks take different times to manifest, and the chain of causation is different).   I'm not suggesting I'm any better than anyone else in that way, but I do think I'm slightly less prone to analysis paralysis.  I'm not suggesting I won't have some concerns (I'll cop to being more than zero scared) but knowing what I know now, I will get the vaccine when made available to me.

Those people in Norway were in senior living centers so they were all elderly.  I'm not *quite* there yet, although I do have an AARP card  :loser:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 18, 2021, 04:18:51 PM

Quote from: emtee on January 18, 2021, 02:09:05 PM

The reports I'm getting from colleagues at the hospital is that the side effects from Pfizer are way worse than Moderna. Fortunately I received Moderna.

That's good to hear. My shoulder actually hurt a lot more and I 'felt off' for a few days after from the flu shot this season then my first Moderna shot. I'm still a tad worried, but maybe a little less so, about the second shot. Just looking forward to getting it over with. I don't need this disease with my asthma/allergies and all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 18, 2021, 04:32:14 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 18, 2021, 02:28:27 PM

  I'm not *quite* there yet, although I do have an AARP card  :loser:

You're the same age as The Lovely Mrs TAC, so I've been enjoying those AARP benefits for years now. ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 19, 2021, 03:10:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 18, 2021, 04:32:14 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 18, 2021, 02:28:27 PM

  I'm not *quite* there yet, although I do have an AARP card  :loser:

You're the same age as The Lovely Mrs TAC, so I've been enjoying those AARP benefits for years now. ;D

Oh, OK, so you married Mrs. Robinson?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 19, 2021, 07:40:11 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 18, 2021, 02:28:27 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 18, 2021, 01:49:32 PM

Barry, I'm with you on that; I'm not sure there's even ONE death here in the States directly and causally related to the COVID vaccines (there is an ongoing investigation into 23 people from Norway who have since passed after receiving the vaccine, but no causal relationship has been reached yet).

We - humans, not anyone specifically here - are proven to not be that good at parsing out relative risks when there are time and distance variables (meaning, the risks take different times to manifest, and the chain of causation is different).   I'm not suggesting I'm any better than anyone else in that way, but I do think I'm slightly less prone to analysis paralysis.  I'm not suggesting I won't have some concerns (I'll cop to being more than zero scared) but knowing what I know now, I will get the vaccine when made available to me.

Those people in Norway were in senior living centers so they were all elderly.  I'm not *quite* there yet, although I do have an AARP card  :loser:

Yea. The Norway thing is interesting, but it's not conclusive yet.  All those people were over 75 and sickly I believe, so was debating with my friends last night, I think you still have a better chance of surviving the vaccine vs. surviving Corona for those elderly sickly paitents anyway even if they determine death was due to the vaccine.

In Cali there's been some bad allergic reactions but it seems isolated to one place giving the vaccines so it's possible that it was a bad batch of vaccines.  I think all 11 people have recovered as well.

At the end of the day, the data is still showing this is very safe even though there are side effects.  There seems to be some hope that Johnson and Johnson's vaccine will be a single dose with less side effects.  We will see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 19, 2021, 10:21:08 AM

I read yesterday that JnJ's is a single dose, but at the moment only trending to be about 80% effective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on January 19, 2021, 03:58:32 PM

Received the second shot today. Here’s to hoping I don’t react too strongly, but if I do and can’t come to work, at least my job will pay me for up to 48 hours of sick time as a result of side effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 19, 2021, 04:26:43 PM

Quote from: Snow Dog on January 19, 2021, 03:58:32 PM

Received the second shot today. Here’s to hoping I don’t react too strongly, but if I do and can’t come to work, at least my job will pay me for up to 48 hours of sick time as a result of side effects.

Pfizer or Moderna?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on January 19, 2021, 07:53:01 PM

Quote from: T-ski on January 19, 2021, 04:26:43 PM

Quote from: Snow Dog on January 19, 2021, 03:58:32 PM

Received the second shot today. Here’s to hoping I don’t react too strongly, but if I do and can’t come to work, at least my job will pay me for up to 48 hours of sick time as a result of side effects.

Pfizer or Moderna?

Pfizer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 19, 2021, 07:57:50 PM

The Lovely Mrs TAC got her first dose of the Pfizer vaccine today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 20, 2021, 06:15:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 19, 2021, 07:57:50 PM

The Lovely Mrs TAC got her first dose of the Pfizer vaccine today.

 :tup, and looking for the "fingers crossed" emoji, but can't find it! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on January 20, 2021, 06:32:40 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 19, 2021, 07:57:50 PM

The Lovely Mrs TAC got her first dose of the Pfizer vaccine today.

Both my in-laws got their Pfizer shots (1st and 2nd) and surprisingly barely had any side effects apart from the arm soreness.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 20, 2021, 07:04:13 AM

The way I look at it - I am so far down the pecking order that I don't expect a shot until at least April or May and by then, they should have enough data to convince all of us that other than the side effects, it should be safe to take.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 20, 2021, 08:32:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on January 20, 2021, 07:04:13 AM

The way I look at it - I am so far down the pecking order that I don't expect a shot until at least April or May and by then, they should have enough data to convince all of us that other than the side effects, it should be safe to take.

It will never be enough for some people.  In 30 years the same people will be like "well, we don't know what happens 40 years later" and while true, that's why the excuse kind of falls apart for me.  No one will ever know the true effects until after we are dead, so we should get the shots so we can go back to living sooner than later.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 20, 2021, 08:40:11 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 20, 2021, 08:32:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on January 20, 2021, 07:04:13 AM

The way I look at it - I am so far down the pecking order that I don't expect a shot until at least April or May and by then, they should have enough data to convince all of us that other than the side effects, it should be safe to take.

It will never be enough for some people.  In 30 years the same people will be like "well, we don't know what happens 40 years later" and while true, that's why the excuse kind of falls apart for me.  No one will ever know the true effects until after we are dead, so we should get the shots so we can go back to living sooner than later.

Right. I've never even considered not getting it. There's a lot of fucking smart people working on it. Yes, I realize there's money hungry Phama execs involved too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on January 20, 2021, 09:34:36 AM

I decided to hold off on getting the shots. I will wait at least until mid February, when we hopefully have more doses available and it is not so damn difficult to get an appointment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on January 20, 2021, 09:47:27 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 20, 2021, 08:32:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on January 20, 2021, 07:04:13 AM

The way I look at it - I am so far down the pecking order that I don't expect a shot until at least April or May and by then, they should have enough data to convince all of us that other than the side effects, it should be safe to take.

It will never be enough for some people.  In 30 years the same people will be like "well, we don't know what happens 40 years later" and while true, that's why the excuse kind of falls apart for me.  No one will ever know the true effects until after we are dead, so we should get the shots so we can go back to living sooner than later.

The long list of potential covid effects should worry people much more. The list of long term complications of many different viruses is a long one. Covid-related damage to a variety of vital organs even in healthy asymptomatic people has been shown. What this means long term remains to be seen.

And the actual vaccine technologies themselves have been tested/researched for decades. First RNA vaccine testing dates back to the early 90's. Offcourse, actual human applications are a different matter, but it is was always a technique/product that was coming to the market sooner or later. One that indeed followed all the required safety protocols.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 20, 2021, 09:52:38 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on January 20, 2021, 09:34:36 AM

I decided to hold off on getting the shots. I will wait at least until mid February, when we hopefully have more doses available and it is not so damn difficult to get an appointment.

Yea, the supply is a major issue right now.  I kept saying my state was doing a good job of prepping for this, it appears a bunch of mega vaccination sites are open already, more coming soon... and we don't have the supply to fully use these now.  Hoping our new leadership is able to get more supply ASAP.

In other news, Israel seems like a really good example of the effects of mass vaccinations:

https://news.yahoo.com/israel-may-starting-show-herd-174520332.html (https://news.yahoo.com/israel-may-starting-show-herd-174520332.html)

At 25% of the population already vaccinated, they may already be seeing effects of herd immunity.  This is great news, but it's only one sample of a country that isn't quite as large or diverse as the US, but they are the only country that is really able to provide this data right now.

Quote from: ErHaO on January 20, 2021, 09:47:27 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 20, 2021, 08:32:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on January 20, 2021, 07:04:13 AM

The way I look at it - I am so far down the pecking order that I don't expect a shot until at least April or May and by then, they should have enough data to convince all of us that other than the side effects, it should be safe to take.

It will never be enough for some people.  In 30 years the same people will be like "well, we don't know what happens 40 years later" and while true, that's why the excuse kind of falls apart for me.  No one will ever know the true effects until after we are dead, so we should get the shots so we can go back to living sooner than later.

The long list of potential covid effects should worry people much more. The list of long terms complications of many different viruses is a long one. Covid-related damage to a variety of vital organs even in healthy asymptomatic people has been shown. What this means long terms remains to be seen.

And the actual vaccine technologies themselves have been tested/researched for decades. First RNA vaccine testing dates back to the early 90's. Offcourse, actual human applications are a different matter, but it is was always a technique/product that was coming to the market sooner or later. One that indeed followed all the required safety protocols.

100% agreed on the bolded.  I've been having nightly heated arguments with a couple of my doctor friends who are anti this vaccine.  I don't get it, they point to the one person in Florida who died but so far there's no reason to suggest the vaccine killed him.  These are highly educated people who just seem to rely on fringe reports.  Might need to invite you into our group chat  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on January 20, 2021, 01:20:38 PM

A year ago and a day, the first C19 death in the USA was in the state of Washington.  After 400K deaths, so much for the 'hoax'.

Had an Fbook memory from six years ago.  Against my wishes, I had told my wife to never schedule any event on a weekend in January.  As it happened, we went to the now 'walled off' DC for a Redwings-Caps game, with the face off taking place during the 4th quarter of the Ravens-Patriots playoff game.  So much for the two TD lead that Baltimore had at one time, and missing out on the finish. :tdwn

And, so much for observing the inauguration, as we did in 2009.

But, almost ninety DT fans could look at a T***p Tower prior to the I&W tour on tax day in 2019 at our preshow get together that I hosted.

Moving on...  my wife and I lost out on her dream cruise in the Mediterranean.  We've visited many places in that region, but so much for Venice, a drive in Barcelona, the Casino Royale in Morocco, and a few other stops.

What hurt this week:  we were going to go to 'Tiger' Stadium in August last year for Lou Whitaker's long overdue jersey retirement ceremony and game.  We would also have visited with her aunt and uncle and family, who had driven twelve hours down here for funerals, who were so damn friendly to me and my wife...who we had visited on various visits to Michigan.

Well.... Uncle Gene died this week.  We could not visit last August, we cannot visit the service this week.   The man was a genious engineer at Chrysler, donated a dozen years as a volunteer at the Henry Ford Museum.  Him and his wife and daughter took us on a five hour special tour of the place, and was just a wonderful and special man.  A moderate Republican, we talked tons of politics, but never had a 'discouraging' word....disagreements, yes, but what a good man.

We lost last year's visit.  We're losing out on seeing his widow and great family.  It's these things that hurt us all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 20, 2021, 01:27:10 PM

I'm very sorry to hear about Uncle Gene, Joe. Sounds like a special time you had.


We had a special trip too planned as well for my son.

But I feel awful for any grieving family cut off from one another. That's just the worst.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 20, 2021, 01:29:18 PM

Sorry for your loss

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 20, 2021, 01:30:42 PM

I'm so sorry for your loss Joe.  It's so hard to deal with when you can't grieve together.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on January 20, 2021, 02:16:32 PM

King (Joe), cram, and Tim...thank you for your thoughts and wishes...

We have lost others.  Just as everyone else here.  And we cannot grieve together, shake a hand, hug a shoulder, cry amongst friends and acquaintances.  What really suxx....  we cannot attend and pay homage to good people who were....good people, and make their praises known to others who knew them as well or better than us.

I feel like I'm writing a Jethro Tull lyric ....  and that is not meant in any way as a joke.

Gawd, I hate this pandemic and this all encompassing isolation. :censored

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on January 20, 2021, 02:30:39 PM

Sorry for the crappy year you’ve had, Dragon. And though you say everyone else has lost out too, it still sucks a lot. I’ve been lucky so far in that those I know and love haven’t been much affected by all this. I can’t imagine not being able to say goodbye to someone dear to you, either peri- or post-mortem. Just awful.

24 hours after my 2nd Pfizer vaccination dose and no noticeable side effects yet other than the usual sore shoulder. My wife got her second yesterday as well, but hasn’t been so lucky. Nothing major, but she’s definitely not feeling great right now having chills, body aches, and a headache. Hopefully it’ll clear up soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on January 20, 2021, 02:47:15 PM

Sorry for your lost dragon :-\ was the lost due to COVID or something else?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 20, 2021, 04:31:28 PM

@DragonAttack, so many have lost time with loved ones over the past year, sorry you had to go through that.

@Snow Dog, glad to hear your reaction was mild, although your wife’s reaction sounds pretty similar to my wife’s reaction.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 20, 2021, 09:27:54 PM

Wife had a panic attack today, she has had a sore throat and a friend had a sore throat and ended up having Covid, so she went and had a rapid test, which was neg.

Without getting political, things are getting ugly here between local teachers unions and their respective districts with regards to resuming in-person school.

DragonAttack, that is awful, thank you for feeling comfortable sharing that here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on January 21, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

What's the state of school in the USA right now? Is it in person, or online?

Asking, because I've been teaching from home starting last March up to July, and then again since December. Basically the better part of a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on January 21, 2021, 05:14:42 AM

Quote from: Elite on January 21, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

What's the state of school in the USA right now? Is it in person, or online?

Asking, because I've been teaching from home starting last March up to July, and then again since December. Basically the better part of a year.

It's up to individual states or even cities to decide what they want to do. So basically it's a little of everything depending on where you are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 21, 2021, 06:04:08 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 20, 2021, 09:27:54 PM

Without getting political, things are getting ugly here between local teachers unions and their respective districts with regards to resuming in-person school.

Chris, I don't consider it a political topic, but maybe I'm wrong.

Is the school not making any accommodations? In my town, and yes, we're a small town, about 100-120 kids in each grade, they have kids A-L in person Mon and Tues and online Thur and Fri. M-Z is the opposite, with all kids home on Wednesday. My son is eligible to go all 4 days in person, so he's doing that.

There are 4 schools in town.

We get daily emails from the Superintendant. Currently there are 5 students and 2 staff as active cases.

As a Grocery Store worker, I am generally not sympathetic to teachers not being in school. Perhaps your town is not addressing overcrowding or has a very good plan. Currently in my store, there are 4 active cases with 3 of them in MY department!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 21, 2021, 06:59:57 AM

Dragon, sorry for your loss.  I say this in sympathy, and no other way, but I lost my uncle, and my stepkids lost their grandmother, and it's noticeably different to not be able to celebrate - meaning honor - those people in what we would think is the proper way, either before they pass or after.  The rituals we have, we have for a reason, and this has disrupted that significantly.  I can only image the ripple effects that will cause.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 21, 2021, 07:47:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on January 21, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

What's the state of school in the USA right now? Is it in person, or online?

Asking, because I've been teaching from home starting last March up to July, and then again since December. Basically the better part of a year.

As stated already, it's different for each state, but here in NJ this is what our governor shared this week:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsHUfspW8AcviaS?format=jpg&name=900x900)

I don't have kids so I can't really add anything to this other than the two teachers I am friends with both are exclusively at home teaching now, both started the year doing hybrid models and moved to just at home as the school year went on.

However, there's still very little spread via the schools being reported.  There is some, but it's not where the cases have really been coming from it seems.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on January 21, 2021, 07:56:10 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2021, 07:47:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on January 21, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

What's the state of school in the USA right now? Is it in person, or online?

Asking, because I've been teaching from home starting last March up to July, and then again since December. Basically the better part of a year.

As stated already, it's different for each state, but here in NJ this is what our governor shared this week:

*snip*

I don't have kids so I can't really add anything to this other than the two teachers I am friends with both are exclusively at home teaching now, both started the year doing hybrid models and moved to just at home as the school year went on.

However, there's still very little spread via the schools being reported.  There is some, but it's not where the cases have really been coming from it seems.

Just to provide some contrast, all the teachers I know in CT are teaching in school. They hate it. They're experiencing a decent amount of cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 21, 2021, 08:10:19 AM

Quote from: Chino on January 21, 2021, 07:56:10 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2021, 07:47:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on January 21, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

What's the state of school in the USA right now? Is it in person, or online?

Asking, because I've been teaching from home starting last March up to July, and then again since December. Basically the better part of a year.

As stated already, it's different for each state, but here in NJ this is what our governor shared this week:

*snip*

I don't have kids so I can't really add anything to this other than the two teachers I am friends with both are exclusively at home teaching now, both started the year doing hybrid models and moved to just at home as the school year went on.

However, there's still very little spread via the schools being reported.  There is some, but it's not where the cases have really been coming from it seems.

Just to provide some contrast, all the teachers I know in CT are teaching in school. They hate it. They're experiencing a decent amount of cases.

Our governor hasn't recently shared the in school case info, maybe it's gotten worse so he hasn't (or I just missed it). But he was regularly tweeting out those stats and saying essentially what I said, it's not a big cause of spread, but there certainly is some.  However, it could just be about numbers.  If CT is ALL in school, then you'll definitely see more cases compared to NJ which is mostly at home.

In other news, I saw someone on CNN say that hospitalizations are actually slowly going down in the US overall.  I can see that looks correct based on this graph https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-currently-hospitalized (https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-currently-hospitalized)  This is very good news.  I don't know if it has to do with the vaccines, maybe, but my initial guess is because the holidays are over so the spread from that would have ended already.  Regardless, hospitilizations go down, then the deaths will go down.  That same person said it's possible that we have just passed the worst part of this all.  Who knows really, but with vaccines ramping up, no holidays coming up, and we slowly are getting through the winter, there definitely seems some potential that we just past the worst part of it all.  Only time will tell.  Let's keep up with staying safe though and get those shots when they are available.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 21, 2021, 08:12:38 AM

Quote from: Elite on January 21, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

What's the state of school in the USA right now? Is it in person, or online?

Asking, because I've been teaching from home starting last March up to July, and then again since December. Basically the better part of a year.

My kids school district has the teachers at school but we still have the option of choosing in school or virtual learning. We’ve chosen to be virtual. My kid says his friends who are at school feel like they are in jail as they are stuck with the same ten or so kids all day and can’t leave their group for any reason.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 21, 2021, 08:27:25 AM

There's a war going on between the mayor of Chicago and the teachers union there. The mayor decided that they should return to in person school and the teachers are refusing. It's getting a bit ugly.

My district started with the choice of in-person or remote. Eventually, it was forced to all remote as cases in the county went crazy.

My daughters college in Colorado has been messed up. Her whole first semester was remote even though she was on-campus. Nice ton of money to have her sit in her room in Colorado in front of her laptop. She hated it and struggled mightily with it. Ended up failing 2 classes and she is a super-smart student. Caused her to have a bit of a mental break and she had to get help. She made the decision to not even go this upcoming semester. She is there now collecting her stuff and then coming back home. She went to half-time for the semester and is essentially redoing the classes she failed with the hopes that things are better next school year.

My son, who is on the autism spectrum, has stated he is learning nothing from remote learning. It got so bad we had to have his psychiatrist invoke a 504 for him so we could get him the help he needs to get through this.

It has been quite the journey.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 21, 2021, 08:31:26 AM

What's a 504?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 21, 2021, 08:32:56 AM

Quote from: Chino on January 21, 2021, 07:56:10 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2021, 07:47:27 AM

Quote from: Elite on January 21, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

What's the state of school in the USA right now? Is it in person, or online?

Asking, because I've been teaching from home starting last March up to July, and then again since December. Basically the better part of a year.

As stated already, it's different for each state, but here in NJ this is what our governor shared this week:

*snip*

I don't have kids so I can't really add anything to this other than the two teachers I am friends with both are exclusively at home teaching now, both started the year doing hybrid models and moved to just at home as the school year went on.

However, there's still very little spread via the schools being reported.  There is some, but it's not where the cases have really been coming from it seems.

Just to provide some contrast, all the teachers I know in CT are teaching in school. They hate it. They're experiencing a decent amount of cases.

In Enfield, we're doing a hybrid; my step-son works from home Monday and Tuesday, Wednesday is an I-don't-know-what-the-fuck-it-is day (except that he doesn't have ANY classes) and Thursday and Friday he's in school in person.   (That's half the class; the other half is in school Monday and Tuedays, is in IDKWTFII day on Wednesday, and home on Thursday and Fridays.   

It's a disaster.  The kid isn't learning anything, the enthusiasm on the part of the teachers borders on Noel Gallagher's enthusiasm to tour with his brother Liam, and we're just in massive "when will this all end?" mode.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 08:37:50 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2021, 06:04:08 AM

As a Grocery Store worker, I am generally not sympathetic to teachers not being in school. Perhaps your town is not addressing overcrowding or has a very good plan. Currently in my store, there are 4 active cases with 3 of them in MY department!

The difference being your customers aren't in close proximity to you for upwards of an hour at a time, or for elementary aged kids, 5-6 hours of the day.  You've got a bigger space available to you, the ability to get off the 'floor', people coming/going with regularity, and have a greater opportunity to keep yourself physically distanced.  Most schools (at least up here) were built decades ago, and have SHIT HVAC systems.  Virus particles aren't moving around much, and the groups of people are confined to small spaces for prolonged periods. 

IMO, educators are in a far more vulnerable position than retail workers, which is not to say that retail workers have it easy/safe.  But on a scale, I'd say they are in a riskier position.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 21, 2021, 08:39:40 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 21, 2021, 08:31:26 AM

What's a 504?

Essentially a program to help children with disabilities get the help they need. It forces the school to provide extra support for the student.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on January 21, 2021, 08:53:13 AM

Here all the schools are closed, both primary and secondary school. It's like this for the entire country; students are at home, except for students in the final years and students who have to be at school for their classes (wood and metalworking, cooking, etc.), though students and teachers have to keep distance. At my school, large classes are split between two classrooms for example, to manage distance.

Schools have been closed (nationwide) between March 2020 and around June and again starting two weeks before Christmas. I think it'll be like this current situation until at least the second half of February. Definitely not ideal, but it is what it is.

My school had 17 cases of coronavirus in October among teachers (staff of about 110). I dodged the bullet, but my closest co-worker still hasn't fully recovered and a couple of others are experiencing way more fatigue than usual. There have been several students with covid, but none got seriously ill. Basically anyone with flu-like symptoms (both students and teachers) has to stay home and follow classes from home. It's been like that since August.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 21, 2021, 10:42:29 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 08:37:50 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2021, 06:04:08 AM

As a Grocery Store worker, I am generally not sympathetic to teachers not being in school. Perhaps your town is not addressing overcrowding or has a very good plan. Currently in my store, there are 4 active cases with 3 of them in MY department!

The difference being your customers aren't in close proximity to you for upwards of an hour at a time, or for elementary aged kids, 5-6 hours of the day.  You've got a bigger space available to you, the ability to get off the 'floor', people coming/going with regularity, and have a greater opportunity to keep yourself physically distanced.  Most schools (at least up here) were built decades ago, and have SHIT HVAC systems.  Virus particles aren't moving around much, and the groups of people are confined to small spaces for prolonged periods. 

IMO, educators are in a far more vulnerable position than retail workers, which is not to say that retail workers have it easy/safe.  But on a scale, I'd say they are in a riskier position.

Chad I can’t argue with any of that.


But it’s never going to be 100% safe. I see the stories on the news and they want Zero risk. That ain’t possible. IMO teachers are essential. At some point they’re going to have to get back in school.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on January 21, 2021, 10:54:44 AM

My daughters school closed today pn account of an outbreak in Covid. Hopefully she did not catch it, will just have to wait and see.

More afraid that my parents will get it though. My father has been in and out of the hospital withother issues. He is now home but they need a lot of help so now they have people there multiple times every day. Unfortunateley they have not been vaccinated yet. Hopefully soon.
Both have multiple issues and both are old, 87 and 83 respectivley.

Have not seen them since the summer and was hoping for them to get vaccinated so we could possibly meet up. They live about 4 hours away so....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 21, 2021, 11:49:02 AM

Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2021, 10:42:29 AM

I see the stories on the news and they want Zero risk. That ain’t possible.

Totally agree with this.  Not just with covid, but everything in life has risk.  We can only try to minimize risk, but a goal of 0 is unattainable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on January 21, 2021, 12:44:05 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 08:37:50 AM

The difference being your customers aren't in close proximity to you for upwards of an hour at a time, or for elementary aged kids, 5-6 hours of the day.  You've got a bigger space available to you, the ability to get off the 'floor', people coming/going with regularity, and have a greater opportunity to keep yourself physically distanced.  Most schools (at least up here) were built decades ago, and have SHIT HVAC systems.  Virus particles aren't moving around much, and the groups of people are confined to small spaces for prolonged periods. 

IMO, educators are in a far more vulnerable position than retail workers, which is not to say that retail workers have it easy/safe.  But on a scale, I'd say they are in a riskier position.

My daughter gets to start going into school next week.  We received a long list of instructions, which included keeping an extra layer of clothing at school because they're going to keep the windows cracked open for additional ventilation in the classrooms.  We're in the Chicago area, in the middle of winter.   >:(

As  happy as I am for her to finally get to go in an have a real first day of kindergarten, I feel so bad that it's not going to resemble anything normal. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 21, 2021, 12:53:41 PM

Quote from: Grappler on January 21, 2021, 12:44:05 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 08:37:50 AM

The difference being your customers aren't in close proximity to you for upwards of an hour at a time, or for elementary aged kids, 5-6 hours of the day.  You've got a bigger space available to you, the ability to get off the 'floor', people coming/going with regularity, and have a greater opportunity to keep yourself physically distanced.  Most schools (at least up here) were built decades ago, and have SHIT HVAC systems.  Virus particles aren't moving around much, and the groups of people are confined to small spaces for prolonged periods. 

IMO, educators are in a far more vulnerable position than retail workers, which is not to say that retail workers have it easy/safe.  But on a scale, I'd say they are in a riskier position.

My daughter gets to start going into school next week.  We received a long list of instructions, which included keeping an extra layer of clothing at school because they're going to keep the windows cracked open for additional ventilation in the classrooms.  We're in the Chicago area, in the middle of winter.   >:(

As  happy as I am for her to finally get to go in an have a real first day of kindergarten, I feel so bad that it's not going to resemble anything normal.

I mean, it's going to be around 20 tomorrow and mid to upper 20's next week. At least there is never wind. Oh wait, windy city.

Joking aside, that's insane. Instead of Covid, let's get these kids sick with something else instead.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 21, 2021, 01:12:18 PM

I truly feel bad for all the kids including the college kids who don't get to experience these years like a normal student.  Besides the fact that it's really difficult to learn in these situations, the social experiences are also important to growth and also just to have fun.  Missing all that is pretty big IMO.  I hope we don't see these kids really having issues in the future from this whether it be not educated enough or just not having the social skills for the "real world". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 02:14:28 PM

Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2021, 10:42:29 AM

But it’s never going to be 100% safe. I see the stories on the news and they want Zero risk. That ain’t possible. IMO teachers are essential. At some point they’re going to have to get back in school.

Agreed.  It's a matter of what risk is 'acceptable' for the need.  My family is full of teachers (at least, from my parents/uncle generation), so I know they are typically shat all over by the gub'ment.  I typically have more sympathy for the profession than the average bear.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on January 21, 2021, 05:00:02 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 02:14:28 PM

Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2021, 10:42:29 AM

But it’s never going to be 100% safe. I see the stories on the news and they want Zero risk. That ain’t possible. IMO teachers are essential. At some point they’re going to have to get back in school.

Agreed.  It's a matter of what risk is 'acceptable' for the need.  My family is full of teachers (at least, from my parents/uncle generation), so I know they are typically shat all over by the gub'ment.  I typically have more sympathy for the profession than the average bear.

My father was a teacher so I'm quite familiar with it as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 21, 2021, 08:38:43 PM

Huh? I know negotiations between any union, specifically teachers unions, and city/state governments are often contentious, but I never get the feeling here that "they are typically shat all over by the gub'ment." (full disclosure, my wife has been a teacher for 20+ years). The WA state supreme court will pretty much take their side on every issue that comes before the court.

I remember when news reports of deaths first hit here, that care facility is about 5 minutes from the office (I don't work in the office, but I start and end each day there, and knew exactly where that facility was).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 09:03:05 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 21, 2021, 08:38:43 PM

Huh? I know negotiations between any union, specifically teachers unions, and city/state governments are often contentious, but I never get the feeling here that "they are typically shat all over by the gub'ment." (full disclosure, my wife has been a teacher for 20+ years). The WA state supreme court will pretty much take their side on every issue that comes before the court.

Well, that ain't the case up here.  They're practically demonized, especially during negotiation periods.  The Provincial governments here do a lot to try and pit parents vs teachers, painting the latter as greedy, lazy, ungrateful, no-good, part-time, over-paid, public servants.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on January 21, 2021, 09:40:01 PM

I've heard all those criticisms about teachers from the peanut gallery (social media), and some individual government officials, but not from the district/city/state as a whole. 

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 21, 2021, 08:39:40 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 21, 2021, 08:31:26 AM

What's a 504?

Essentially a program to help children with disabilities get the help they need. It forces the school to provide extra support for the student.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.html

I have never heard those specifics, but know all more than the average Joe as my wife teaches special needs. Some of her parents were all "So, while schools are closed, my kid's PT/OT/whatever therapist/one-on-one is going to come to our house for our sessions, correct?" They had to be advised that, no even if we were not during a pandemic, the district isn't equipped for that level of service. It's awful, but a truth both admin and staff can agree on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on January 22, 2021, 05:25:37 AM

Schools have been closed here since earlier December. But schools with children that have special needs are the exception. My mother still teaches at location, as she teaches kids and young adults with all kinds of problems.

I know exceptions can be made on a case by case basis. So for all regular students, the buildings are off limits, but if the development of a child is at risk, it can be communicated with the local governments.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on January 22, 2021, 06:06:17 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on January 22, 2021, 05:25:37 AM

Schools have been closed here since earlier December. But schools with children that have special needs are the exception.

I didn't know that, but that's probably simply because I didn't check. All I know from my school (and schools nearby) is that students in their final years, or students that have to do practical work (woodworking, cooking etc.) can go to school, like I said above.

Also, my school is open for students who don't have the resources to work from home, or for students who need to be monitored more closely, so to speak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on January 22, 2021, 07:05:56 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on January 21, 2021, 09:03:05 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on January 21, 2021, 08:38:43 PM

Huh? I know negotiations between any union, specifically teachers unions, and city/state governments are often contentious, but I never get the feeling here that "they are typically shat all over by the gub'ment." (full disclosure, my wife has been a teacher for 20+ years). The WA state supreme court will pretty much take their side on every issue that comes before the court.

Well, that ain't the case up here.  They're practically demonized, especially during negotiation periods.  The Provincial governments here do a lot to try and pit parents vs teachers, painting the latter as greedy, lazy, ungrateful, no-good, part-time, over-paid, public servants.

I don't think to that extreme, but here in NYC I see a lot of that happening with teachers.

I remember last March when cases started going up here and teachers/principals wanted to closed down schools, the response was, "go do your work or lose your job, there are other people willing to teach" (Not in those exact words, but it was the main message). While I agree there are plenty of qualified teachers in NYC looking for a job, that was just not the right response from our local leaders.

I was offered a teaching job for a middle school back in 2014, and I turned it down because the terms and expectations were ridiculous. Even though I miss teaching, I am glad I turned it down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on January 22, 2021, 07:46:36 AM

As of tomorrow there will be a curfew for several weeks. Meaning we can't go outside between 21:00 pm and 4:30 am.

This is because the projections of the UK-variant are really bad and would cause a third major wave. The UK variant is now is in the early stages of taking over.

I am not against the measurements, but they sure are depressing  :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 22, 2021, 08:50:53 AM

So Publix Pharmacy has vaccines, and every five days or so they open up more appointments.  They opened up appts. across three states (FL, GA, and IF - that's "I Forget") today at 6:00am.  I got up to register my parents (they're 81 and 83).  I waited until 7:15 before I could actually enter my info and by that time the closest Pharmacy was in Boca Raton, which if rough math works is about 150 miles, or 2 and a half hours, plus minus.   

Try again on the 27th.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on January 22, 2021, 09:38:37 AM

WI is opening it up to 65+ starting next week. Called my parents (76 & 75) to see what they plan to do, Mom says she’ll do it if her doctor signs off on it, my Dad, who is high risk to get Covid, says he won’t get it. My Mom has always been able to gradually wear my Dad down on stuff like this so I hope she can do it again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on January 22, 2021, 10:25:09 AM

Keep at it.  It's great that this is happening, if a bit slow.  Just frustrating and actually infuriating how it continues to be politicized, and how that politicization is actually an obstacle to getting it out to people in some places.  But I guess I'll leave that alone or save it for the equivalent thread in P/R.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 22, 2021, 11:50:33 AM

Well, we finally got a bit of good news here in MA in that Governor Charlie Baker is easing the restrictions a little bit starting Sunday which means my gym will go back to being upon 24/7 which means I can go back to starting my workout at 5am every day instead of 6am.  yay!  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 22, 2021, 11:54:28 AM

Just got approved to get the Covid shots.  3 to 5 days and i will get the email for when.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 22, 2021, 11:59:48 AM

Congrats  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 22, 2021, 12:22:54 PM

The wife got her first one all ready because she works at a hospital.  I'm happy I made the 1B.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 22, 2021, 03:30:58 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on January 22, 2021, 12:22:54 PM

The wife got her first one all ready because she works at a hospital.  I'm happy I made the 1B.

This is good news, sire.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on January 22, 2021, 03:31:42 PM

Mom got her second shot today. Very relieved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 22, 2021, 07:42:19 PM

Quote from: Adami on January 22, 2021, 03:31:42 PM

Mom got her second shot today. Very relieved.

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 25, 2021, 03:11:22 PM

I found this youtuber/streamer because I was interested in his views on twitch and streaming, but I found this video on his channel from December where he talks about the new vaccines with a virologist, here's the description and link below (it's very long, 2.5 hours so more like a podcast).  I listened to the whole thing at work today and learned quite a bit.

Quote

COVID-19 is normally out of the scope of this channel. But I believe having a platform means you should work to platform good information if you can. I am lucky enough to have on Dr. Vincent Racaniello, a world renown virologist and expert on COVID-19. I noticed a lot of misunderstanding in our community about COVID-19 and the vaccine. I wanted to platform solid, scientific information with the goal of educating people and giving people a talk they can send to others that is comprehensive, complete, and accurate to our understand of the vaccine.


The COVID-19 vaccine, developed by Pfizer and Moderna, is a well-tolerated mRNA vaccine using brand new technology. The vaccine is very safe, and I will be taking it as soon as it's offered to me. I hope that others will do the same and that this information finds the right people well. It was enlightening to talk to Dr. Vincent Racaniello.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV4EY69RRHk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV4EY69RRHk)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on January 25, 2021, 03:50:13 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on January 25, 2021, 03:11:22 PM

I found this youtuber/streamer because I was interested in his views on twitch and streaming, but I found this video on his channel from December where he talks about the new vaccines with a virologist, here's the description and link below (it's very long, 2.5 hours so more like a podcast).  I listened to the whole thing at work today and learned quite a bit.

Quote

COVID-19 is normally out of the scope of this channel. But I believe having a platform means you should work to platform good information if you can. I am lucky enough to have on Dr. Vincent Racaniello, a world renown virologist and expert on COVID-19. I noticed a lot of misunderstanding in our community about COVID-19 and the vaccine. I wanted to platform solid, scientific information with the goal of educating people and giving people a talk they can send to others that is comprehensive, complete, and accurate to our understand of the vaccine.


The COVID-19 vaccine, developed by Pfizer and Moderna, is a well-tolerated mRNA vaccine using brand new technology. The vaccine is very safe, and I will be taking it as soon as it's offered to me. I hope that others will do the same and that this information finds the right people well. It was enlightening to talk to Dr. Vincent Racaniello.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV4EY69RRHk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV4EY69RRHk)

Thx for posting, i'm 30mins in and i'm hooked.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 26, 2021, 01:25:50 PM

Just got home after my second Moderna shot. Now the waiting for potential side effect begins. Oddly, I am having a pain in my left hand. I always get shots in my left shoulder. Otherwise, nothing to report yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on January 26, 2021, 01:52:53 PM

I'm staying away from the vaccine as long as possible so someone else can have it.  I never get the flu shot either and haven't had the flu in 30 years.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 26, 2021, 02:00:16 PM

Got a call from the Health Center in town and we are scheduled for the vaccine shot at 2:15 tomorrow. Total surprise but I will take it. I'm not sure if it's Pfizer or Moderna.

I'll let you know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 26, 2021, 02:13:10 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 26, 2021, 01:52:53 PM

I'm staying away from the vaccine as long as possible so someone else can have it.  I never get the flu shot either and haven't had the flu in 30 years.

I feel the same way, I will get the vaccine but I'll let others get it first.  I'm not worried about the vaccine, and I'm not too worried about the virus either as someone who lives alone, but with limited supply, I don't see the need to get it before others.  I expect I'll get it before the summer though as it should be available to a point where I wouldn't feel like I'm getting it over someone who needs it more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 26, 2021, 02:21:02 PM

I never got the flu shot until my employer made it a fireable offense. Seeing as I work for a large health system, it's hard to argue against. Plus, they gave us first crack at the covid vax so I took it. I don't need the kind of lung damage this thing can inflict. I was also going to be one of the last ones, but I changed my mind over time and seeing that this wasn't a government hack job but an actual proper science job made me feel better. Not to mention that me, my wife and daughter are all high risk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on January 26, 2021, 02:42:46 PM

I'll get it so long (and as soon) as I'm comfortable the others who need it more than me (ie, are higher risk) get it first.  Like, if jingle.kids are going to be going back to uni/college on campus, they get stuck before me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on January 26, 2021, 06:58:33 PM

2/3 employees I supervised tested positive. I work with both of them on a daily basis. they're both ok with no symptoms, I'll go get tested tomorrow  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on January 27, 2021, 06:00:54 AM

Not me guys, I'll be like Trump with the PM of Montenegro if I get the call to go get a shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on January 27, 2021, 08:25:47 AM

Quote from: Podaar on January 27, 2021, 06:00:54 AM

Not me guys, I'll be like Trump with the PM of Montenegro if I get the call to go get a shot.

Had to Google it, forgot about that shit  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 27, 2021, 08:32:45 AM

Quote from: lonestar on January 27, 2021, 08:25:47 AM

Quote from: Podaar on January 27, 2021, 06:00:54 AM

Not me guys, I'll be like Trump with the PM of Montenegro if I get the call to go get a shot.

Had to Google it, forgot about that shit  :lol

One of my favorite Trump gifs  :lol just so douchy but it works in context when BSing with my friends sometimes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 27, 2021, 08:36:07 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 26, 2021, 01:25:50 PM

Just got home after my second Moderna shot. Now the waiting for potential side effect begins. Oddly, I am having a pain in my left hand. I always get shots in my left shoulder. Otherwise, nothing to report yet.

I crashed hard last night. Developed a major headache in the middle of the night and barely slept. I feel like a team of bullies beat me up and left me for dead. Body aches and exhaustion are huge right now. I feel awful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 27, 2021, 08:38:18 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 27, 2021, 08:36:07 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 26, 2021, 01:25:50 PM

Just got home after my second Moderna shot. Now the waiting for potential side effect begins. Oddly, I am having a pain in my left hand. I always get shots in my left shoulder. Otherwise, nothing to report yet.

I crashed hard last night. Developed a major headache in the middle of the night and barely slept. I feel like a team of bullies beat me up and left me for dead. Body aches and exhaustion are huge right now. I feel awful.

Damn.  It seems I read more about the bad side effects from the Moderna vaccines, has anyone here had Pfizer and experienced similar?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on January 27, 2021, 10:00:33 AM

Actually I've heard more about Pfizer side effects than Moderna, but it's all anectdotal anyway.  Everyone's different, and people are all reacting differently.  I've seen nothing worse than "eh, my arm was sore for a few days" from both, and also stories like the professor's from both.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 27, 2021, 10:05:02 AM

Quote from: Orbert on January 27, 2021, 10:00:33 AM

Actually I've heard more about Pfizer side effects than Moderna, but it's all anectdotal anyway.  Everyone's different, and people are all reacting differently.  I've seen nothing worse than "eh, my arm was sore for a few days" from both, and also stories like the professor's from both.

I would have thought so since they are such similar vaccines, but you are probably right that it's just anectdotal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 27, 2021, 02:05:34 PM

Just got back from getting the Moderna covids 19 vaccine. Booster on Feb. 24th.

We'll see but I am ecstatic to get it!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on January 28, 2021, 08:17:25 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 27, 2021, 08:36:07 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 26, 2021, 01:25:50 PM

Just got home after my second Moderna shot. Now the waiting for potential side effect begins. Oddly, I am having a pain in my left hand. I always get shots in my left shoulder. Otherwise, nothing to report yet.

I crashed hard last night. Developed a major headache in the middle of the night and barely slept. I feel like a team of bullies beat me up and left me for dead. Body aches and exhaustion are huge right now. I feel awful.

Started feeling better last night and got a really good nights sleep. Today I'm back to normal. Shoulder pain is practically gone and I feel fine. Roughly 36 hours of feeling crappy and now I'm fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 28, 2021, 09:45:13 AM

Man, I registered the 1st day I could for 1B.  Just got my email and the first available day is March 27th.  Holy moly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on January 28, 2021, 10:17:22 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 28, 2021, 08:17:25 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 27, 2021, 08:36:07 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on January 26, 2021, 01:25:50 PM

Just got home after my second Moderna shot. Now the waiting for potential side effect begins. Oddly, I am having a pain in my left hand. I always get shots in my left shoulder. Otherwise, nothing to report yet.

I crashed hard last night. Developed a major headache in the middle of the night and barely slept. I feel like a team of bullies beat me up and left me for dead. Body aches and exhaustion are huge right now. I feel awful.

Started feeling better last night and got a really good nights sleep. Today I'm back to normal. Shoulder pain is practically gone and I feel fine. Roughly 36 hours of feeling crappy and now I'm fine.

Good to hear that you're doing better!

Wifey woke up with a pretty bad headache but am feeling fine. We get our second shot towards the end of Feb.  I usually respond well to shots meaning I don't have bad reactions or any reaction at all but I realize this virus is a different beast.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on January 28, 2021, 10:32:30 AM

My company announced (email to employees) that they are administering vaccines according to the guidelines set forth.  Once eligible, I'll receive an email with registration info.  I'm not in 1b and haven't received an email yet, and I'm not exactly sure what the announcement means, but it kinda sounds like I'll have my choice of getting it through work or just going to the local CVS.  Or maybe the "choice" is really more like whoever has the vaccine first, since I'm hearing about all kinds of delays in getting the vaccines out.  I work for a pharmaceutical company, but not one that has a vaccine out there, so I hadn't really considered that this would be an option.

Until now, I've been trying to avoid digging too deeply into the details.  1b is folks 65 and older, so I'm not in that group anyway.  I could check to see what group I'm actually in, but all I'd accomplish would be knowing when I'd theoretically get my shots and raising my anxiety levels as I read more about the delays and wonder if/when I'll get mine on time ("on time" meaning "before I actually contract Covid-19").

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 28, 2021, 01:52:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 26, 2021, 01:52:53 PM

I'm staying away from the vaccine as long as possible so someone else can have it. 

I'm getting that fucker as soon as I can.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on January 28, 2021, 03:53:05 PM

Unless something changes, I won't likely be eligible for awhile.  As of right now, I plan to get it as soon as I can, unless some information comes out about that between now and then that would change my opinion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on January 28, 2021, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 28, 2021, 01:52:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 26, 2021, 01:52:53 PM

I'm staying away from the vaccine as long as possible so someone else can have it. 

I'm getting that fucker as soon as I can.

I am literally standing right next to you when you do.  I'm all in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on January 28, 2021, 06:42:58 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 28, 2021, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 28, 2021, 01:52:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 26, 2021, 01:52:53 PM

I'm staying away from the vaccine as long as possible so someone else can have it. 

I'm getting that fucker as soon as I can.

I am literally standing right next to you when you do.  I'm all in.

Me three....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 28, 2021, 07:47:27 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 28, 2021, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 28, 2021, 01:52:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 26, 2021, 01:52:53 PM

I'm staying away from the vaccine as long as possible so someone else can have it. 

I'm getting that fucker as soon as I can.

I am literally standing right next to you when you do.  I'm all in.

Hell yeah

Quote from: CrimsonSunrise on January 28, 2021, 06:42:58 PM

Quote from: Stadler on January 28, 2021, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 28, 2021, 01:52:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 26, 2021, 01:52:53 PM

I'm staying away from the vaccine as long as possible so someone else can have it. 

I'm getting that fucker as soon as I can.

I am literally standing right next to you when you do.  I'm all in.

Me three....

Now its a party.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on January 28, 2021, 07:48:58 PM

Party is way down the line. I signed up and I have to wait 2 months to get my 1st shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2021, 07:45:53 AM

The Johnson & Johnson vaccine may be approved next month. 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/johnson-johnson-releases-single-dose-135027318.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/johnson-johnson-releases-single-dose-135027318.html)

Single dose, not as effective as the Moderna/Pfizer but might still be powerful enough to make a difference being only a single shot

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 29, 2021, 11:22:02 AM

Most people aren't aware but the typical flu vaccine each year is only 40% to 60% effective and it's been out and available for decades, so these Covid-19 vaccines are actually pretty remarkable, even the J&J version.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 29, 2021, 10:32:38 PM

Quote

As a Latina scientist investigating interactions between diet, microbiome and immunity, I must stress the importance of better policies to improve access to healthy foods, which lead to a healthier microbiome. It is also important to design culturally sensitive dietary interventions for Black and Latinx communities. While a good-quality diet might not prevent SARS-CoV-2 infection, it can treat the underlying conditions related to its severity.

https://theconversation.com/a-healthy-microbiome-builds-a-strong-immune-system-that-could-help-defeat-covid-19-145668?fbclid=IwAR2RnLhoJkRGQF7AwJVMUCJBYA6zimR0JBl0ETRvzdpYRUfZqcGJCk-lnrM

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Volante99 on January 30, 2021, 01:28:10 AM

MN is still STRICTLY only open for 65 and older and essential workers.

Unfortunately, the seriously immunocompromised seem to be getting glossed over with the current rankings- I’m all for health care workers and elderly getting dibs but at this point I’ve known several young day car providers and even a mall security guard get vaccinated before my brother who is currently on chemotherapy, and several friends on heavy duty immunosuppressant drugs can even get scheduled...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Kotowboy on January 30, 2021, 03:31:31 AM

One of the more annoying things about the last year is - every single YouTube video now starts with

" And i'm doing this from home now because of THE PANDEMIC..."

" NAMM isn't happening this year due to COVID19..."

And it's like  ::) oh what's that ? i'd never heard of this ... Please elaborate...

It's so fucking irritating. It's like YES WE KNOW. IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE WEREN'T REMINDED OF IT ON EVERY SINGLE VIDEO WE WATCH FFS...

What's wrong with saying " I'm obviously at home now making this video instead of instore. You know why....."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 02, 2021, 09:52:53 AM

I don't have to worry about my father and mother getting covid from the the people taking care of my father anymore. He died in hospital this weekend. Both the kidneys and the lungs failed him.

Talked to him 2 hours before he died and thought he sounded better than the day before. Oh well at least he did not have to suffer so long. First symptoms of this were just after Christmas.

I will do have to worry about my mother though. She has not got her vaccines yet and there will be a funeral for my father soon. Hopefully since it will only be the closest family (20 persons maximum) she will be ok. If she catches covid now I don't know what I will do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Kotowboy on February 02, 2021, 09:55:12 AM

 :-[ :-[

Hang in there. Keep her safe ! Keep masked up and wash your hands and surfaces regularly etc ! xxq

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 02, 2021, 09:58:50 AM

So sorry to read that  :'(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 02, 2021, 10:13:12 AM

My condolences.....very sorry to hear that  :'(   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 02, 2021, 10:13:52 AM

Words cannot express how sorry I am for your loss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 02, 2021, 10:23:49 AM

So sorry to read about your loss Swedishgoose. Good luck and stay safe!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 02, 2021, 10:39:01 AM

Swedishgoose, I'm very sorry for your loss. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 02, 2021, 10:50:18 AM

Damn Goose. So sorry to hear.. :sadpanda:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 02, 2021, 10:52:35 AM

Internet hug  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Kotowboy on February 02, 2021, 10:53:15 AM

Quote from: Kotowboy on February 02, 2021, 10:53:15 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 02, 2021, 10:52:35 AM

Internet hug  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on February 02, 2021, 11:24:01 AM

Very sorry SwedishGoose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 02, 2021, 11:36:34 AM

Oh man, that's so terrible.  I'm sorry for your loss Goose

Quote from: Kotowboy on February 02, 2021, 10:53:15 AM

Quote from: Kotowboy on February 02, 2021, 10:53:15 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 02, 2021, 10:52:35 AM

Internet hug  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 02, 2021, 11:43:43 AM

Thanks guys.
It's extra tough this year. Have not met him since the summer because of covid and was holding out hope for the vaccines.
So glad that I spoke so much as I did with him on the phone at leasr.

Take care guys and keep in contact with your loved ones, you never know when might be the last time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 02, 2021, 12:20:17 PM

Damn, just saw this.  I'm so sorry for your loss, goose.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 02, 2021, 01:10:41 PM

My heartfelt condolences.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Polarbear on February 02, 2021, 01:24:01 PM

I'm very sorry for your loss Goose!

All the power to you during your difficult time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 02, 2021, 02:49:42 PM

Quote from: Polarbear on February 02, 2021, 01:24:01 PM

I'm very sorry for your loss Goose!

All the power to you during your difficult time.

This right here.  Not much else I can say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on February 02, 2021, 09:32:59 PM

Very sorry to hear this as well, SwedishGoose.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 03, 2021, 10:05:33 AM

Same.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 04, 2021, 06:32:17 AM

Thanks again guys.
I'm starting to process it now.
I have even managed to finally listen to The Absolute Universe.
I was in the beginning of CD2 when my mother called. Could not listen for a couple of days but now it becomes kind of a solace.
I guess I will always connect TAU with my fathers passing away. I think I can even know where I was at the time of death.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on February 08, 2021, 03:54:23 PM

Got my 2nd dose at 7 this morning. Moderna. So far, just a slight headache and nothing else.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 09, 2021, 12:47:52 PM

Good for you, man.  I asked my doctor when I could get it and he said, "I have no idea"  :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 09, 2021, 12:55:05 PM

My wife gets her second today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on February 09, 2021, 08:06:46 PM

I am always impressed when members here can come forward and share like SwedishGoose did, and see people chime in with a comforting thought for him. It makes me happy to be part of this community.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 09, 2021, 08:27:21 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on February 09, 2021, 08:06:46 PM

I am always impressed when members here can come forward and share like SwedishGoose did, and see people chime in with a comforting thought for him. It makes me happy to be part of this community.

It's a special place. Even my wife has given in. She used to think the whole thing was ridiculous, but I've been on DTF for 17 years and she is way more trusting of it now.
When we went to California a few summers ago, I was hoping to hook up with Lonestar, since we were staying north of San Fran. Unfortunately it didn't work out. Then my youngest son said he wanted to see Sacramento so I pitched the idea of meeting Samsara and Bosk, and she was actually cool with it. That wouldv'e never have happened 10 years ago when the kids were younger.

We had a July 2020 trip to Italy booked and we were planning on hooking up with Indiscipline. It was all worked out.


In fact, we we talking about planning our next vacation a few weeks ago, and my youngest told my wife that we have to make sure it's close to "one of Dad's friends on The Forum".


My point is that this a place great people, and my wife, who never trusted the internet, has been somewhat converted to the importance of this place for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 09, 2021, 08:34:50 PM

Oh, and speaking of The Lovely Mrs TAC, she got her second shot today.

She works in a facility that is part independent living/part assisted living. So they qualified in Phase 1.

She is second in charge, basically the Operations Manager for the building while the Executive Director handles all of the board meetings, etc... So she was in charge of the vaccine clinics in her building.

The pharmacy brings 10% extra doses, and they had a couple of cancellations so they had 4 leftover doses. After exhausting all possibilities in house, she called me at 5:30, and told me to grab the kids (They're 18 (asthmatic) & 19 (autism spectrum)) and get there within a half hour.

So we got our 1st dose today!!! We go back on March 2nd.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 09, 2021, 08:37:52 PM

Lisa got her second shot today.  She's breaking out in a rash. We will see tomorrow morning.

Everything makes her break out so no surprise here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on February 09, 2021, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2021, 08:27:21 PM

In fact, we we talking about planning our next vacation a few weeks ago, and my youngest told my wife that we have to make sure it's close to "one of Dad's friends on The Forum".

 :)

My parents both got 2 shots, no problems. Same with in-laws I believe. My wife should be in an upcoming wave as a teacher. I am way, way down the road I have not even given it any thought.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 09, 2021, 09:06:19 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on February 09, 2021, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2021, 08:27:21 PM

In fact, we we talking about planning our next vacation a few weeks ago, and my youngest told my wife that we have to make sure it's close to "one of Dad's friends on The Forum".

 :)

Seattle is still on the list Chris.

In fact our trip to San Francisco in 2018 actually started out as a trip to Seattle/Vancouver.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 10, 2021, 08:18:55 AM

Wife got her second shot yesterday.  She broke out in a rash, swollen tongue, Itchy, fever and chills.


This is not a surprise.  She is allergic to most medication.  They are having her go to an emergency room for evaluation for a few hours incase.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 10, 2021, 08:23:55 AM

That's to be expected, hopefully like basically all cases it will resolve itself shortly  :tup fingers crossed!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on February 10, 2021, 08:26:37 AM

Fingers crossed, Queenshmeg.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 10, 2021, 08:35:39 AM

Fingers crossed here as well

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 10, 2021, 08:45:50 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 10, 2021, 08:18:55 AM

Wife got her second shot yesterday.  She broke out in a rash, swollen tongue, Itchy, fever and chills.


This is not a surprise.  She is allergic to most medication.  They are having her go to an emergency room for evaluation for a few hours incase.

Did she see her doctor before taking the vaccine? I 2oukdve been really concerned about the ingredients if I was allergic to most medications.

But in the end, it was your wife's choice she felt the vaccine side effects will outweigh getting Covid itself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 10, 2021, 09:14:09 AM

She works at a hospital so she had to.  She had no reservation.  She wanted it.  She's ok.  I think Benadryl for a few days.  She's be drowsy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on February 10, 2021, 10:53:29 AM

CDC now reccemends double masking. When it's hot, breathing through 2 is not easy. Heck, even when it's not hot that's a tough task.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 10, 2021, 11:01:32 AM

Quote from: emtee on February 10, 2021, 10:53:29 AM

CDC now reccemends double masking. When it's hot, breathing through 2 is not easy. Heck, even when it's not hot that's a tough task.

I started double masking when going to a store but when I’m outside I just use a single mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 10, 2021, 11:37:10 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2021, 08:27:21 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on February 09, 2021, 08:06:46 PM

I am always impressed when members here can come forward and share like SwedishGoose did, and see people chime in with a comforting thought for him. It makes me happy to be part of this community.

It's a special place. Even my wife has given in. She used to think the whole thing was ridiculous, but I've been on DTF for 17 years and she is way more trusting of it now.
When we went to California a few summers ago, I was hoping to hook up with Lonestar, since we were staying north of San Fran. Unfortunately it didn't work out. Then my youngest son said he wanted to see Sacramento so I pitched the idea of meeting Samsara and Bosk, and she was actually cool with it. That wouldv'e never have happened 10 years ago when the kids were younger.

We had a July 2020 trip to Italy booked and we were planning on hooking up with Indiscipline. It was all worked out.


In fact, we we talking about planning our next vacation a few weeks ago, and my youngest told my wife that we have to make sure it's close to "one of Dad's friends on The Forum".


My point is that this a place great people, and my wife, who never trusted the internet, has been somewhat converted to the importance of this place for me.

NIAGARA FALLS, BABY!!!!

Mrs.jingle and the jingle.kids know a whole bunch of you fuckers too.

We've been double masking for a couple months now, and with the new variants, are also wearing eye protection when out in public.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 10, 2021, 11:57:53 AM

So... is the protocol to have BOTH masks below the nose, or just one?  :)  More seriously, can I wear one of those cool scarf/cravat/ascot things and put a mask over top that? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 10, 2021, 12:16:43 PM

Good to hear the Queen is going to be ok.  I think that's fairly normal to have a reaction if she's typically allergic, but I'm sure it's scary to experience. 

I don't double mask and honestly don't plan to.  My mask has an outer and inner cloth layer with a filter in between.  Nothing fancy, but it has what Fauci says for a 3 layer mask.  Actually just got a three pack of these cause the one I had went missing in the laundry, but having a few is good so I can rotate and clean them. 

My older sister wants my siblings to all hang this Saturday.  She is asking we all get tested first.  I said I'm not getting tested to gather with a small group of healthy adults, of which everyone besides my sister all hung out a couple weeks ago.  If anything, she should be tested but I'm not going to ask that.  I just feel like it's a waste of resources and my time to get tested just to hang for an afternoon. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on February 10, 2021, 12:31:32 PM

I had to take my wife downtown to Northwestern for a medical procedure and I was not allowed to stay anywhere near her so I had to wander the campus for 3+ hours which led to a lot of people watching. The one that stood out the most was a person that was heavily double-masked and was wearing a giant face shield. Made me laugh for some reason.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 10, 2021, 05:18:06 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 10, 2021, 11:37:10 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2021, 08:27:21 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on February 09, 2021, 08:06:46 PM

I am always impressed when members here can come forward and share like SwedishGoose did, and see people chime in with a comforting thought for him. It makes me happy to be part of this community.

It's a special place. Even my wife has given in. She used to think the whole thing was ridiculous, but I've been on DTF for 17 years and she is way more trusting of it now.
When we went to California a few summers ago, I was hoping to hook up with Lonestar, since we were staying north of San Fran. Unfortunately it didn't work out. Then my youngest son said he wanted to see Sacramento so I pitched the idea of meeting Samsara and Bosk, and she was actually cool with it. That wouldv'e never have happened 10 years ago when the kids were younger.

We had a July 2020 trip to Italy booked and we were planning on hooking up with Indiscipline. It was all worked out.


In fact, we we talking about planning our next vacation a few weeks ago, and my youngest told my wife that we have to make sure it's close to "one of Dad's friends on The Forum".


My point is that this a place great people, and my wife, who never trusted the internet, has been somewhat converted to the importance of this place for me.

NIAGARA FALLS, BABY!!!!

Mrs.jingle and the jingle.kids know a whole bunch of you fuckers too.

We've been double masking for a couple months now, and with the new variants, are also wearing eye protection when out in public.

I really want to see Niagara Falls.  Not sure when that may actually end up being in the cards.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 10, 2021, 05:36:29 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 10, 2021, 09:14:09 AM

She works at a hospital so she had to.  She had no reservation.  She wanted it.  She's ok.  I think Benadryl for a few days.  She's be drowsy.

Joe, I didn't get a chance to post today at work. Glad she's feeling better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 10, 2021, 05:41:20 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 10, 2021, 05:18:06 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 10, 2021, 11:37:10 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2021, 08:27:21 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on February 09, 2021, 08:06:46 PM

I am always impressed when members here can come forward and share like SwedishGoose did, and see people chime in with a comforting thought for him. It makes me happy to be part of this community.

It's a special place. Even my wife has given in. She used to think the whole thing was ridiculous, but I've been on DTF for 17 years and she is way more trusting of it now.
When we went to California a few summers ago, I was hoping to hook up with Lonestar, since we were staying north of San Fran. Unfortunately it didn't work out. Then my youngest son said he wanted to see Sacramento so I pitched the idea of meeting Samsara and Bosk, and she was actually cool with it. That wouldv'e never have happened 10 years ago when the kids were younger.

We had a July 2020 trip to Italy booked and we were planning on hooking up with Indiscipline. It was all worked out.


In fact, we we talking about planning our next vacation a few weeks ago, and my youngest told my wife that we have to make sure it's close to "one of Dad's friends on The Forum".


My point is that this a place great people, and my wife, who never trusted the internet, has been somewhat converted to the importance of this place for me.

NIAGARA FALLS, BABY!!!!

Mrs.jingle and the jingle.kids know a whole bunch of you fuckers too.

We've been double masking for a couple months now, and with the new variants, are also wearing eye protection when out in public.

I really want to see Niagara Falls.  Not sure when that may actually end up being in the cards.

Same, I definitely want to visit Canada one day but with the pandemic, it's just not in my cards either for awhile.  They won't let us in  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 10, 2021, 06:05:02 PM

I've only ever been to western Canada, but my wife and I really enjoyed it.  I really want to see some other parts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 10, 2021, 06:07:30 PM

I have two bucket list vacations..Australia and the Canadian Rockies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on February 10, 2021, 06:16:31 PM

Quote from: TAC on February 10, 2021, 05:36:29 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 10, 2021, 09:14:09 AM

She works at a hospital so she had to.  She had no reservation.  She wanted it.  She's ok.  I think Benadryl for a few days.  She's be drowsy.

Joe, I didn't get a chance to post today at work. Glad she's feeling better.

Same here.  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 10, 2021, 06:21:02 PM

Quote from: TAC on February 10, 2021, 06:07:30 PM

I have two bucket list vacations..Australia and the Canadian Rockies.

Saw a bit of the Canadian Rockies on the last Canada trip that my wife and I did in 2001.  It was short, but really nice.  We camped in Banff, then drove to Lake Louise the next morning and spent the day there, and then on to Calgary.  I would highly recommend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 10, 2021, 06:22:55 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 10, 2021, 06:21:02 PM

Quote from: TAC on February 10, 2021, 06:07:30 PM

I have two bucket list vacations..Australia and the Canadian Rockies.

Saw a bit of the Canadian Rockies on the last Canada trip that my wife and I did in 2001.  It was short, but really nice.  We camped in Banff, then drove to Lake Louise the next morning and spent the day there, and then on to Calgary.  I would highly recommend.

Yeah, a Calgary/Edmonton vacation, preferably during hockey season. ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 11, 2021, 06:39:51 AM

I've done the drive from Seattle to Vancouver, BC twice now; breathtaking both times. I'm a big fan of Vancouver.

I also tried to drive from Portland, Oregon to Mt. St. Helens, but with the switch-backs, the actual drive was like 80 times longer than as the crow flies.  Beautiful country, no doubt, but I only saw a relatively small part of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 11, 2021, 08:02:13 AM

Mrs. NoseHair and I had a tour of Buchart Gardens in Victoria, BC while on an Alaskan Cruise. 


Took a shitload of pictures, they're here in case anyone's interested. (http://barrycraigthompson.com/Photography/Seattle-Alaska-Victoria-BC)


That's my one and only time I ever stepped foot in Canada

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 11, 2021, 09:14:04 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 11, 2021, 06:39:51 AM

I've done the drive from Seattle to Vancouver, BC twice now; breathtaking both times. I'm a big fan of Vancouver.

Yeah, that's a nice drive.  But not as nice as the drive east from there.  We did that trip after I took the Bar exam in 2001.  A bunch of factors all coincided that made the trip what it was, including Queensryche playing two shows in Seattle to film a live DVD (they were my favorite band at the time, and my wife liked them a lot too), and a lawschool classmate of mine having one of her many homes in Whistler (one of the perks of going to law school in Malibu:  you can hardly walk 5 minutes without tripping over someone with strong Hollywood connections).  We flew into Seattle, road tripped up to Vancounver and then Whistler, and then into and across the Rockies to Calgary, and then back to Seattle.  The drive eastward across the Rockies was the best part by far.

Quote from: Stadler on February 11, 2021, 06:39:51 AM

I also tried to drive from Portland, Oregon to Mt. St. Helens, but with the switch-backs, the actual drive was like 80 times longer than as the crow flies.  Beautiful country, no doubt, but I only saw a relatively small part of it.

Yeah, I've done that too.  And at risk of this turning into the travel thread vs. the Covid thread, I will point out that this was our Covid summer family road trip.  We drove from the Sacramento area up to Mt. Shasta; then to the Klamath Falls area (we intended to camp at Lava Beds, not knowing when we first embarked that wildfires had started and were raging there), then to Crater Lake, then on to Silver Falls State Park in Oregon, then through Portland up to Mt. St. Helens; then over to the coast at Astoria (took pics at the Goondocks, which I believe I posted), down the Oregon coast over a couple of days, and back home.  FANTASTIC trip!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 12, 2021, 08:22:01 AM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-says-all-americans-could-start-to-get-vaccinated-in-april-here-are-the-numbers-to-back-up-his-prediction-221400929.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-says-all-americans-could-start-to-get-vaccinated-in-april-here-are-the-numbers-to-back-up-his-prediction-221400929.html)

Seems like the US has purchased enough vaccines for everyone to get vaccinated by July, with Fauci saying by April it's expected to be "open season" for anyone to get vaccinated and there shouldn't be crazy waits or issues by then.  This is very good news.

Also, for those watching the graphs https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-all-key-metrics (https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-all-key-metrics) every key metric (besides testing) is going down. 

The only issue is the mutations now, but I'm starting to feel hopeful I may be able to go to a concert before the end of the summer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on February 12, 2021, 03:38:38 PM

Been to Canada many times. Fly in fishing trips as well as driving to remote lakes. Beautiful country!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 16, 2021, 05:58:02 PM

Getting first shot tomorrow. Don’t know which company it is yet though. Working in Healthcare my company got my position qualified as 1A.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 16, 2021, 06:03:43 PM

At this point, I'd swan dive on the fucking needle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 16, 2021, 06:46:50 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 16, 2021, 06:03:43 PM

At this point, I'd swan dive on the fucking needle.

I have two buddies that are telling me I’m injecting poison into my body......with a straight face. I don’t understand it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on February 16, 2021, 06:55:32 PM

My dad got his first shot yesterday and my wife's dad will get his first on Friday.  I'm so thankful that some of my family is eligible to be vaccinated now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 16, 2021, 07:14:28 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 16, 2021, 06:46:50 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 16, 2021, 06:03:43 PM

At this point, I'd swan dive on the fucking needle.

I have two buddies that are telling me I’m injecting poison into my body......with a straight face. I don’t understand it.

They didn't get too far in the sciences, did they?

I'm in group 1B, so I figure I'll get called up to the majors within the next two weeks, supplies are going to start pouring into CA, and one of the Fed sites is opening up in Oakland this week. Would really like to get it there by the fema dudes in military fatigues so I can get the full forced mass vaccination effect. :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 16, 2021, 07:48:40 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 16, 2021, 07:14:28 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 16, 2021, 06:46:50 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 16, 2021, 06:03:43 PM

At this point, I'd swan dive on the fucking needle.

I have two buddies that are telling me I’m injecting poison into my body......with a straight face. I don’t understand it.

They didn't get too far in the sciences, did they?

I'm in group 1B, so I figure I'll get called up to the majors within the next two weeks, supplies are going to start pouring into CA, and one of the Fed sites is opening up in Oakland this week. Would really like to get it there by the fema dudes in military fatigues so I can get the full forced mass vaccination effect. :biggrin:

My wife is 1B as well. She’s a Special School District teacher.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on February 16, 2021, 08:35:14 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 16, 2021, 06:46:50 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 16, 2021, 06:03:43 PM

At this point, I'd swan dive on the fucking needle.

I have two buddies that are telling me I’m injecting poison into my body......with a straight face. I don’t understand it.

It boggles the mind that some still think that way.

Good luck with the shots, man!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 17, 2021, 07:19:05 AM

A few months back, the State presented facts about the vaccine in this video. I send this to people who have their doubts about the vaccine.

https://covidvaccine.mo.gov/facts/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 07:27:06 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on February 17, 2021, 07:19:05 AM

A few months back, the State presented facts about the vaccine in this video. I send this to people who have their doubts about the vaccine.

https://covidvaccine.mo.gov/facts/

Doubt that will help any hardcore anti-vax’rs or anti gub’t, given the source.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

The vaccine is no guarantee that you won't get at least some form of the virus.  On the other hand, no vaccine doesn't guarantee that you will get it either.  It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it.  I don't get the flu shot either and haven't had the flu in over 30 years.  If the vaccine gives some people piece of mind, then whatever.  It isn't full proof.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 07:45:00 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

The vaccine is no guarantee that you won't get at least some form of the virus.  On the other hand, no vaccine doesn't guarantee that you will get it either.  It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it.  I don't get the flu shot either and haven't had the flu in over 30 years.  If the vaccine gives some people piece of mind, then whatever.  It isn't full proof.

The seatbelt is no guarantee that you won't die in a car accident. On the other hand, no seatbelt isn't guarantee that you will die either. It's a year that I'm driving without a seatbelt and I still haven't had an accident.

(And this isn't even a proper analogy because you not wearing a seatbelt affects only yourself, and not everyone else you come into contact with)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:55:00 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 07:45:00 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

The vaccine is no guarantee that you won't get at least some form of the virus.  On the other hand, no vaccine doesn't guarantee that you will get it either.  It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it.  I don't get the flu shot either and haven't had the flu in over 30 years.  If the vaccine gives some people piece of mind, then whatever.  It isn't full proof.

The seatbelt is no guarantee that you won't die in a car accident. On the other hand, no seatbelt isn't guarantee that you will die either. It's a year that I'm driving without a seatbelt and I still haven't had an accident.

(And this isn't even a proper analogy because you not wearing a seatbelt affects only yourself, and not everyone else you come into contact with)

Yeah, you're right.  It isn't the proper analogy, so why even post it?  Apples and oranges.  I should've mentioned that I wear a mask every time I go out in public.  Maybe if I said the sky is blue, you can come up with an analogy to discredit that too.  :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2021, 08:17:48 AM

I don't do it because I'm cool or enlightened, I do it because I'm a p***y and don't want to get sick.  But I wear a mask, I distance, and I stay home a lot.    I'm also like Lonestar, in that I would do a half-gainer onto the needle if given a chance.  I've been "joking" for a couple months now to anyone that will listen that "if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old ER doctor with the dia-beetus who lives in a nursing home".   

But I also see the other side; I'm not a big one for pointing fingers and making fun of people who think differently than I do. I can understand the fear and trepidation of getting something shot inside you.  There are millions of people that don't eat food out of a box, or don't take certain medicines or whatever for their own reasons.  They are allowed to not do this.

I don't view vaccines like I do seatbelts (which I'm notoriously bad at wearing); I look at vaccines like abortions*.  We march to support the notion that a woman controls her own body and can make the decisions for her body that she sees fit.  I don't view vaccines any differently. 



* And for maybe 5 or 10 reasons, yes, abortions - or not - affect all of us.  This is just one of those reasons (https://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/abortion-crime-research-donohue-levitt/).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on February 17, 2021, 08:31:39 AM

Even though I've been eligible to get the vaccine for a few weeks, I did not start trying to get it until last week, and it has been pretty difficult to get an appointment.

Half of my coworkers have received the 1st dose (we all qualified because of the type of organization we work for). They all received the first dose because they live in The Bronx, NY, and qualified to get it at The Yankee Stadium. I am literally across the river from Yankee Stadium, but don't qualified because I live in Manhattan. Most places around me, mostly pharmacies, are following the initial guidelines of Health Care workers or 65 and older only (I don't fall under any of those).

Just have to keep trying until I find an appointment I guess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 08:47:34 AM

That's another reason I'm not getting the vaccine.  Many others need it more than I do.  I work full time from home and hardly ever go out.  So, for someone to imply that I'm not doing my part to protect myself and others by not getting the vaccine is bullshit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2021, 09:12:21 AM

My 76-year-old mom has now had her first covid vaccine shot thanks to my kid brother getting her in over at Gillette Stadium.   It's definitely a relief because she lives with me and Mrs. NoseHair and although she has her own private apartment on the first floor of our house, we do share some space including the laundry room on the first floor.  So we've been trying to stay away from her as much as possible.  I'm glad she's on her way to full vaccination now within 15 days

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:55:00 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 07:45:00 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

The vaccine is no guarantee that you won't get at least some form of the virus.  On the other hand, no vaccine doesn't guarantee that you will get it either.  It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it.  I don't get the flu shot either and haven't had the flu in over 30 years.  If the vaccine gives some people piece of mind, then whatever.  It isn't full proof.

The seatbelt is no guarantee that you won't die in a car accident. On the other hand, no seatbelt isn't guarantee that you will die either. It's a year that I'm driving without a seatbelt and I still haven't had an accident.

(And this isn't even a proper analogy because you not wearing a seatbelt affects only yourself, and not everyone else you come into contact with)

Yeah, you're right.  It isn't the proper analogy, so why even post it?  Apples and oranges. 

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?  FWIW, I too have not gotten a flu shot in many many years.  I did get a flu a couple of times, but A) I didn't pass it on to anyone (that I know of), and B) I wasn't worried about my mortality from the flu.  If I was to catch COIVD, I would be completely worried about both of these things.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it. 

And yet still, 110M people globally have; 28M Americans - roughly 8% of the US population.  I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on February 17, 2021, 09:35:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?  FWIW, I too have not gotten a flu shot in many many years.  I did get a flu a couple of times, but A) I didn't pass it on to anyone (that I know of), and B) I wasn't worried about my mortality from the flu.  If I was to catch COIVD, I would be completely worried about both of these things.

I disagree. - there are people who are fearful of just the flu.  My uncle is HIV+.  My father in law is very immuno-compromised (Crohn's disease), with damaged kidneys and skin cancer issues that he deals with, in addition to gastro-intestional flare-ups). 

If either of them catches the flu, they could be hospitalized and/or even die because of their preexisting conditions.  It's not an apples-oranges scenario.  It might be to you, since you're not afraid of the flue, but not to others who can be severely hospitalized or killed by just a plain old flu virus. 

I get the flu shot simply because I would normally spend 3 hours per day commuting in public transportation, sealed in a train car with 50-100 other people in close proximity.  Many of them sniffle and cough their way through the winter months, rather than take a sick day.  I don't want to get sick and miss work or risk giving the flu to my kids (when they were babies it was really important to get the flu shot, since they didn't have strong immune systems yet).  The same goes for COVID.  it would be nice to know that I have some antibodies floating around in my body, just in case I get it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:55:00 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 07:45:00 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

The vaccine is no guarantee that you won't get at least some form of the virus.  On the other hand, no vaccine doesn't guarantee that you will get it either.  It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it.  I don't get the flu shot either and haven't had the flu in over 30 years.  If the vaccine gives some people piece of mind, then whatever.  It isn't full proof.

The seatbelt is no guarantee that you won't die in a car accident. On the other hand, no seatbelt isn't guarantee that you will die either. It's a year that I'm driving without a seatbelt and I still haven't had an accident.

(And this isn't even a proper analogy because you not wearing a seatbelt affects only yourself, and not everyone else you come into contact with)

Yeah, you're right.  It isn't the proper analogy, so why even post it?  Apples and oranges. 

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?

Because they are both vaccines.  I'm not comparing a vaccine to a seatbelt.  I would expect most people to know the difference.

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it. 

And yet still, 110M people globally have; 28M Americans - roughly 8% of the US population.  I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic.

Yeah, and maybe a lot of those people didn't take the necessary precautions and didn't follow guidelines.  I have been and that's why I haven't gotten it and also haven't been at risk of giving it to someone else.  I have been doing my part like I stated before if you bothered to read it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 09:48:58 AM

Quote from: Grappler on February 17, 2021, 09:35:26 AM

risk giving the flu to my kids (when they were babies it was really important to get the flu shot,

This was the reason I started getting serious about getting the flu shot.  I may have missed only one or two years in the 20 I've been a parent.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 10:42:02 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic.

This is really the single largest reason I chose to go ahead and get it. Honestly, I was on the fence. I've had Covid and I think in general for 'healthy' people who don't have some large underlying issue.....you're going to be just fine if you catch it and pass it like you would a bad case of the flu and so I was leaning on just passing on the chance and taking my chances in catching it again and just dealing with it.

BUT....if it takes me and my wife getting the shot to 'do our part' to help get this virus under control and get things back to 'normal' then I don't think it's a big ask. I just got my first shot (Pfzier) about an hour ago.....and unless I'm one of these extremely rare cases that drops dead in the next day or two from some sort of reaction to it I'll have my second shot on 3/10 and that'll be that.

It's baffling to me that getting a vaccine to end a pandemic has been politicized to the point of a really large percentage of the population not 'trusting' these vaccines. Especially based on the fact that the reason 'we' are living such long and fruitful lives in these modern times is directly attributed to large scale vaccinations.


I'm just curious to see if I have any side effects given that I've had Covid already? With antibodies most likely still in place I'm wondering how I'll feel over the next day or two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 10:49:43 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 10:42:02 AM

It's baffling to me that getting a vaccine to end a pandemic has been politicized to the point of a really large percentage of the population not 'trusting' these vaccines.

Is it politicized? Or are these people just skeptical of a very quickly made vaccine. Some people are just skeptical to begin with.

Most of us have never had a brand new vaccine made in our lifetime. The vaccines we have are tried and tested, but not this one.

I'm not arguing Gary. I just think people are predisposed to not trust these kinds of things, but I don't view it as anything political.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 10:56:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 17, 2021, 10:49:43 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 10:42:02 AM

It's baffling to me that getting a vaccine to end a pandemic has been politicized to the point of a really large percentage of the population not 'trusting' these vaccines.

Is it politicized? Or are these people just skeptical of a very quickly made vaccine. Some people are just skeptical to begin with.

Most of us have never had a brand new vaccine made in our lifetime. The vaccines we have are tried and tested, but not this one.

I'm not arguing Gary. I just think people are predisposed to not trust these kinds of things, but I don't view it as anything political.

I get that side of the argument but I personally thing a lot of the push back against the vaccine is politically motivated. At least that's the way I see it and have experienced it within my immediate everyday life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:16:01 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 10:56:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 17, 2021, 10:49:43 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 10:42:02 AM

It's baffling to me that getting a vaccine to end a pandemic has been politicized to the point of a really large percentage of the population not 'trusting' these vaccines.

Is it politicized? Or are these people just skeptical of a very quickly made vaccine. Some people are just skeptical to begin with.

Most of us have never had a brand new vaccine made in our lifetime. The vaccines we have are tried and tested, but not this one.

I'm not arguing Gary. I just think people are predisposed to not trust these kinds of things, but I don't view it as anything political.

I get that side of the argument but I personally thing a lot of the push back against the vaccine is politically motivated. At least that's the way I see it and have experienced it within my immediate everyday life.

Fair enough Gary. That's so sad though. I totally understand someone being skeptical or nervous about injecting it into their body, but to think they are not because a Senator told them not to...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2021, 11:27:57 AM

I think it runs deeper than that, though.  There are 10's if not 100's of issues we face every day in our society that ultimately resolve down to one side thinking they're right, and therefore everyone else has to do what they want them to do, and another side thinking they are right, and therefore they don't have to listen to anyone else.   The problem though, is that they're not talking the same language and so they end up talking past each other.

I think we overstate the degree to which this is a cold, objective math problem for people (on both sides).  It's not how many human brains work (smoking, driving without a seatbelt, drinking diet soda...)

Somewhere in this great, grand universe there's a planet where one side has realized that bullying and shaming people do what they think is "the right thing" doesn't work, and the other side has realized that not everything exists in a vacuum, and that finding a way to coexist isn't a threat to one's liberty.   Maybe even this can happen on the SAME planet. ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:34:15 AM

Stads, I think I know what you're saying, but I don't see how that matters here.

I think on the vaccine, don't you decide if you want to take it or not want to take it? I mean, perhaps media could influence a choice, but it is a very personal decision, no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 17, 2021, 11:36:28 AM

I think the internet is at fault for those who don't want the vaccine.  People believe anything they read and there is so much bad information out there These days. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 17, 2021, 11:42:43 AM

Well there was a large amount of anti-vaxxers before this pandemic, so you already had this problem before, then add in the quickness of developing these vaccines and our political divide and you can see why people are very cautious.

I really don't see why there should be politics involved here.  Trump ordered all those first doses and his operation warp speed, Biden has double down on it.  It seems both sides were on board with mass vaccinations so I don't think it should be politicized at all, but you know how it works here in the US....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:55:58 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 17, 2021, 11:36:28 AM

I think the internet is at fault for those who don't want the vaccine.  People believe anything they read and there is so much bad information out there These days.

Some people believe Power Windows is a good album.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2021, 11:56:15 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:34:15 AM

Stads, I think I know what you're saying, but I don't see how that matters here.

I think on the vaccine, don't you decide if you want to take it or not want to take it? I mean, perhaps media could influence a choice, but it is a very personal decision, no?

It is; but I think we delude ourselves to the degree to which that personal decision is "okay, so the facts are that there are no causal deaths relating from the Pfizer vaccine, and if I get it we are 4.6xe-9 closer to herd immunity, so... I'm in!"    We tend to insert our emotions and our feelings and our trust "gut" into these equations, where it probably doesn't belong.   

Then when we do that, we get skewed answers on what is right.   Fact is, less than 10% of American adults are anti-vaxxers (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/02/09/heres-how-many-americans-are-actually-anti-vaxxers/), and even that assumes that all are acting on their beliefs.  Somewhere around 20% to 25% of Americans are waffling (https://www.bsu.edu/news/press-center/archives/2021/02/22-percent-of-americans-plan-on-declining-covid-19-vaccine) specifically on the COVID vaccine, but that number has been dropping (it was in the 35% range as recently as a couple weeks ago).   Using Fauci's 75% target (though to be fair, he's said at various times 75% and even as high as 90%) we'll get to herd immunity without them.   So bullying people to get it isn't the answer any more than denying science is.

Even me; I'm citing statistics like they're Tootsie Rolls at a Memorial Day Parade, and yet I'm getting it for one very simple reason: I'm afraid I won't ever see my parents again if I don't. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 17, 2021, 11:58:09 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:55:58 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 17, 2021, 11:36:28 AM

I think the internet is at fault for those who don't want the vaccine.  People believe anything they read and there is so much bad information out there These days.

Some people believe Power Windows is a good album.

You're an Anti-Windows truther.  LOL

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:59:04 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 17, 2021, 11:58:09 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:55:58 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 17, 2021, 11:36:28 AM

I think the internet is at fault for those who don't want the vaccine.  People believe anything they read and there is so much bad information out there These days.

Some people believe Power Windows is a good album.

You're an Anti-Windows truther.  LOL

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 12:02:07 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 17, 2021, 11:56:15 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:34:15 AM

Stads, I think I know what you're saying, but I don't see how that matters here.

I think on the vaccine, don't you decide if you want to take it or not want to take it? I mean, perhaps media could influence a choice, but it is a very personal decision, no?

It is; but I think we delude ourselves to the degree to which that personal decision is "okay, so the facts are that there are no causal deaths relating from the Pfizer vaccine, and if I get it we are 4.6xe-9 closer to herd immunity, so... I'm in!"    We tend to insert our emotions and our feelings and our trust "gut" into these equations, where it probably doesn't belong.   

Then when we do that, we get skewed answers on what is right.   Fact is, less than 10% of American adults are anti-vaxxers (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/02/09/heres-how-many-americans-are-actually-anti-vaxxers/), and even that assumes that all are acting on their beliefs.  Somewhere around 20% to 25% of Americans are waffling (https://www.bsu.edu/news/press-center/archives/2021/02/22-percent-of-americans-plan-on-declining-covid-19-vaccine) specifically on the COVID vaccine, but that number has been dropping (it was in the 35% range as recently as a couple weeks ago).   Using Fauci's 75% target (though to be fair, he's said at various times 75% and even as high as 90%) we'll get to herd immunity without them.   So bullying people to get it isn't the answer any more than denying science is.

Even me; I'm citing statistics like they're Tootsie Rolls at a Memorial Day Parade, and yet I'm getting it for one very simple reason: I'm afraid I won't ever see my parents again if I don't.

Who’s talking about bullying? I’m not. That is way too much info in that post.

I’m getting it because I want to shield myself and my family from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2021, 12:11:02 PM

I think some of you could benefit from reading this article. (https://time.com/5925074/black-americans-covid-19-vaccine-distrust/)  No judgement, condescension or "gotcha" message board bullshit here at all.  I just think most white people simply don't get it.  Seriously, take 10 minutes and read it; I guarantee you will have a better understanding of why some segments of our society are extremely fearful of vaccines. 


The minute I qualify for it, I'll be getting the Covid-19 Vaccine but I haven't had a flu shot ever.  I've had the flu twice.  I was sick for a few days.  But with the amount of people Covid-19 is killing I'm not taking any chances with it.  As soon as I can get vaccinated I'm going to do it.


Were the vaccines produced in record time?  Yep.  They've also been tested on 10's of thousands of people and have proven to be safe and effective.  So to me the choice is pretty clear and easy.  Take the vaccine and maximize my chances of either not getting sick with Covid-19 or if I do get sick, not dying from it.  Kind of a no-brainer if you ask me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 17, 2021, 12:13:04 PM

I have to get the flu shot because I have no spleen.  I've lost one of the 2 filters in your body.  Lymph nodes being the other. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2021, 12:16:19 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 17, 2021, 12:13:04 PM

I have to get the flu shot because I have no spleen.  I've lost one of the 2 filters in your body.  Lymph nodes being the other.

You must have a bionic liver. Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 17, 2021, 12:17:18 PM

Whenever I drink it makes that bionic sound. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 17, 2021, 12:18:40 PM

My parents are anti the new MRNa vaccines, but have said they will get the Johnson & Johnson one.  I'd imagine there's a subset of the population that also feels that way and the good news is that J&J will likely be approved soon and being only one shot, it will make a difference in getting this under control. 

Also, at this point, a significant portion of the US has already been infected.  I think the end result is EVERYONE either gets infected and/or gets the vaccine and we reach herd immunity by the end of the summer (in the US, I can't speak for other nations as I don't follow their covid situations, besides Isreal who is already getting close to herd immunity).  The mutations will continue and we may need to get booster or new vaccines in the future, but the deaths will go down significantly just from the vaccinations and we can go back to living our lives because the fear of death will be miniscule. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 12:41:39 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2021, 12:11:02 PM

Were the vaccines produced in record time?  Yep.  They've also been tested on 10's of thousands of people and have proven to be safe and effective.  So to me the choice is pretty clear and easy.  Take the vaccine and maximize my chances of either not getting sick with Covid-19 or if I do get sick, not dying from it.  Kind of a no-brainer if you ask me.

People also often forget that there was already a coronavirus outbreak, the SARS epidemic of 2002-3. That was a coronavirus. The information gathered at that time helped immensely in fast tracking the vaccine. If Covid was a completely new and never seen before virus, there was no way in hell we would have had a vaccine in a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2021, 12:54:36 PM

The flu and the common cold are also coronaviruses - there are quite a few of them, actually.  MERS, SARS, COVID-19, Swine Flu, regular Flu and many more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 17, 2021, 01:05:34 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 12:41:39 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2021, 12:11:02 PM

Were the vaccines produced in record time?  Yep.  They've also been tested on 10's of thousands of people and have proven to be safe and effective.  So to me the choice is pretty clear and easy.  Take the vaccine and maximize my chances of either not getting sick with Covid-19 or if I do get sick, not dying from it.  Kind of a no-brainer if you ask me.

People also often forget that there was already a coronavirus outbreak, the SARS epidemic of 2002-3. That was a coronavirus. The information gathered at that time helped immensely in fast tracking the vaccine. If Covid was a completely new and never seen before virus, there was no way in hell we would have had a vaccine in a year.

Exactly correct! The technology to create this vaccine so quickly has been around for many years. Also, when China sequenced the virus AND shared that with the world, it allowed us to create not only tests but get started on creating a vaccine. Those who are taking a wait and see because they believe that it was Rushed are needlessly and willingly ignant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 01:21:18 PM

My largest 'fear' with getting this vaccine are/were the one off headlines of 'Healthy 45 Year Old Man Dies Two Days After Getting Covid-19 Vaccine'  That type of headline and reporting are scary to think about. I'm sure there's a ton of things that have to happen for someone to die due to getting the vaccine.....but if I'm honest that was my largest fear. Just being a random, lightning in a bottle headline.

So....if I drop dead a day or two from now....I'm going to be pissed  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 17, 2021, 01:29:27 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 17, 2021, 01:21:18 PM

My largest 'fear' with getting this vaccine are/were the one off headlines of 'Healthy 45 Year Old Man Dies Two Days After Getting Covid-19 Vaccine'  That type of headline and reporting are scary to think about. I'm sure there's a ton of things that have to happen for someone to die due to getting the vaccine.....but if I'm honest that was my largest fear. Just being a random, lightning in a bottle headline.

So....if I drop dead a day or two from now....I'm going to be pissed  :lol

As Khan said to his son when he died - "I will avenge you"!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2021, 02:02:24 PM

A friend of mine who runs an infectious disease lab at Case Western University on Ohio told me recently in an email, if you are a generally healthy adult between the ages of 18 and 50 "You have a better chance of hitting the lottery and being struck by lightning on the same day than you do of being killed by a Covid-19 vaccine."


That's a direct quote from an immunologist

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 17, 2021, 02:28:47 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 12:41:39 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2021, 12:11:02 PM

Were the vaccines produced in record time?  Yep.  They've also been tested on 10's of thousands of people and have proven to be safe and effective.  So to me the choice is pretty clear and easy.  Take the vaccine and maximize my chances of either not getting sick with Covid-19 or if I do get sick, not dying from it.  Kind of a no-brainer if you ask me.

People also often forget that there was already a coronavirus outbreak, the SARS epidemic of 2002-3. That was a coronavirus. The information gathered at that time helped immensely in fast tracking the vaccine. If Covid was a completely new and never seen before virus, there was no way in hell we would have had a vaccine in a year.

Not sure about "forgetting"--I think a lot of people just don't realize that those are coronaviruses, and that we, as a society, have been aware of coronaviruses for a relatively LONG time before the novel coronavirus that can cause Covid-19.  And, honestly, I get why most people wouldn't really have reason to know that.  It just isn't something the average person really would have paid attention to (although I think it a bit strange that a bit more people still don't know that now, after we've been dealing with this virus for over a year).

Yes, these vaccines may have been produced in "record time," but what a lot of people also don't realize is that that "record time" has still been literally years in the making--not months.  Because we have known about coronaviruses for years, we have also been working on vaccines for years.  The specifics of these particular vaccines may be somewhat recent, but a lot of the bigger foundation has been in the works for a pretty long time.  Also, I was reading an article recently that explained that, although the total timeline for testing is shorter than the norm, it also kind of isn't because typically, the development and testing proceeds in a linear manner with step 1 in the process usually being complete before step 2, and so on.  Whereas with these vaccines, they multitracked, so that, for example, manufacturing was already happening simultaneously with phase 3 testing instead of waiting until the phase 3 testing was complete.  So the testing wasn't shortened overall--each trial phase was normal.  Things just happened simultaneously rather than sequentially. 

I wish more people understood these facts before making kneejerk decisions about the vaccines being rushed.  I mean, I'm not saying that needs to be the end-all, be-all of someone's decision making process.  But it certainly helps to have the correct information vs. incorrect assumptions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 17, 2021, 02:28:47 PM

I wish more people understood these facts before making kneejerk decisions about the vaccines being rushed.  I mean, I'm not saying that needs to be the end-all, be-all of someone's decision making process.  But it certainly helps to have the correct information vs. incorrect assumptions.

This is where social media and click bait news headlines come to play.  One headline can say "person dies after getting vaccinated" but the contents of the article state this person was sick with something else and the vaccine is unlikely related to the death.  However, it spreads like wild fire that "someone died from the vaccine" through social media by those who don't believe or trust in the vaccines.

I certainly wish everyone would do some homework to understand these things, but knowing most won't, is it really too much to ask for the news to have appropriate headlines that don't cause division?  Apparently it is too much to ask as divisiveness , not the truth, sells.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 03:19:50 PM

Yeah, "forgetting" is not the right word - people just don't know.

Just yesterday the Etna volcano erupted in Sicily. Nobody is making wild claims about weird origins of the eruption, we all know volcanoes and how they work.

And when there's an earthquake, nobody screams "conspiracy" (well, actually a bunch of people think that Tesla was able to engineer earthquakes and that there's the technology to cause them but that's for another time), earthquakes are famous just like volcanos, we all know in general terms why the earth shake.

Then a pandemic happens.... and a big majority of the people don't know, don't realize or don't bother to research that there have been people studing viruses and diseases for a long time just like there's people studying volcanoes and earthquakes. The fact that virues are not famous as earthquakes doesn't change the fact that there are people studying it for a long, long time and that know what they're doing.

When the pandemic broke out last year however on social media it seemed like a free-for-all, brave new world where anybody could come up with the theory they preferred. Hell no. Viruses and even a coronavirus were nothing new, and all the research was there for everyone to see if just people bothered to educate themselves. Just because it's not a worldwide discussed issue doesn't mean it's a new one.

Case in point: do you know that one of the fear of scientists is that with global warming the icecaps, melting, will release bacteria and viruses long dormant in the permafrost? google "viruses in permafrost", you'll find dozen of links discussing this very possible threat.

Wanna bet that, if in 10 years this actually happens and people in Greenland or North Canada get a virus that wasn't seen since 3000 B.C. everyone will consider it a brand new thing - and therefore open to "social media judgement" - with hardly anyone bothering to research and realize it was a thing long predicted?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 17, 2021, 06:33:14 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 17, 2021, 08:17:48 AM

I don't do it because I'm cool or enlightened, I do it because I'm a p***y and don't want to get sick.  But I wear a mask, I distance, and I stay home a lot.    I'm also like Lonestar, in that I would do a half-gainer onto the needle if given a chance.  I've been "joking" for a couple months now to anyone that will listen that "if anyone asks, I'm a 78 year old ER doctor with the dia-beetus who lives in a nursing home".   

But I also see the other side; I'm not a big one for pointing fingers and making fun of people who think differently than I do. I can understand the fear and trepidation of getting something shot inside you.  There are millions of people that don't eat food out of a box, or don't take certain medicines or whatever for their own reasons.  They are allowed to not do this.

I don't view vaccines like I do seatbelts (which I'm notoriously bad at wearing); I look at vaccines like abortions*.  We march to support the notion that a woman controls her own body and can make the decisions for her body that she sees fit.  I don't view vaccines any differently. 



* And for maybe 5 or 10 reasons, yes, abortions - or not - affect all of us.  This is just one of those reasons (https://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/abortion-crime-research-donohue-levitt/).

Exactly, Its about A person getting to decide what they can and can't put inside their own body. It's all personal space as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 17, 2021, 07:19:30 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 17, 2021, 12:18:40 PM

My parents are anti the new MRNa vaccines, but have said they will get the Johnson & Johnson one.  I'd imagine there's a subset of the population that also feels that way and the good news is that J&J will likely be approved soon and being only one shot, it will make a difference in getting this under control. 

Also, at this point, a significant portion of the US has already been infected.  I think the end result is EVERYONE either gets infected and/or gets the vaccine and we reach herd immunity by the end of the summer (in the US, I can't speak for other nations as I don't follow their covid situations, besides Isreal who is already getting close to herd immunity).  The mutations will continue and we may need to get booster or new vaccines in the future, but the deaths will go down significantly just from the vaccinations and we can go back to living our lives because the fear of death will be miniscule.

Until the next ones comes along that makes us bleed from eyes and ears. Then the Fear cycle starts all over again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 17, 2021, 07:26:44 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 17, 2021, 03:19:50 PM

Yeah, "forgetting" is not the right word - people just don't know.

Just yesterday the Etna volcano erupted in Sicily. Nobody is making wild claims about weird origins of the eruption, we all know volcanoes and how they work.

And when there's an earthquake, nobody screams "conspiracy" (well, actually a bunch of people think that Tesla was able to engineer earthquakes and that there's the technology to cause them but that's for another time), earthquakes are famous just like volcanos, we all know in general terms why the earth shake.

Then a pandemic happens.... and a big majority of the people don't know, don't realize or don't bother to research that there have been people studing viruses and diseases for a long time just like there's people studying volcanoes and earthquakes. The fact that virues are not famous as earthquakes doesn't change the fact that there are people studying it for a long, long time and that know what they're doing.

When the pandemic broke out last year however on social media it seemed like a free-for-all, brave new world where anybody could come up with the theory they preferred. Hell no. Viruses and even a coronavirus were nothing new, and all the research was there for everyone to see if just people bothered to educate themselves. Just because it's not a worldwide discussed issue doesn't mean it's a new one.

Case in point: do you know that one of the fear of scientists is that with global warming the icecaps, melting, will release bacteria and viruses long dormant in the permafrost? google "viruses in permafrost", you'll find dozen of links discussing this very possible threat.

Wanna bet that, if in 10 years this actually happens and people in Greenland or North Canada get a virus that wasn't seen since 3000 B.C. everyone will consider it a brand new thing - and therefore open to "social media judgement" - with hardly anyone bothering to research and realize it was a thing long predicted?

And we Natives feel the same way with people digging up stuff that was buried in the ground. Like The Tombs in Egypt and Our Ancestral gravesites and Ruins. There's reasons why we left them alone, and are buried in the ground.

And to me, it's all the effect of how we as humans as whole are treating the Earth. Climate Change is a change of weather patterns, and we are witness to that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?

Because they are both vaccines.  I'm not comparing a vaccine to a seatbelt.  I would expect most people to know the difference.

And I'd expect most people to know the difference between the flu and COVID-19

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it. 

And yet still, 110M people globally have; 28M Americans - roughly 8% of the US population.  I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic.

Yeah, and maybe a lot of those people didn't take the necessary precautions and didn't follow guidelines.  I have been and that's why I haven't gotten it and also haven't been at risk of giving it to someone else.  I have been doing my part like I stated before if you bothered to read it.

That's twice you've accused people of not reading your posts because your points have been challenged.  Defensive much?  Lighten up pal - no need to be such a dick.  You're right, many may not have taken precautions (or outright disregarded them*), but there are too many instances of people taking every precaution they can, and still getting it.

"Doing your part" in the (hopefully near) future won't be the same as it was in the past.  For most, it won't be closures.  It won't be masking any/everywhere all the time.  It won't be physical distancing.  It will be herd immunity thru vaccination.  By all means, people who don't want to (or won't) vaccinate can continue to do their part by masking, staying at home only for essential purposes, and keeping 6 feet away from the rest of society.

*And I suspect that's because many bought into the politicization of the pandemic??  You don't think the former POTUS took every precaution - and yet he still contracted it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:33:58 AM

Quote from: Grappler on February 17, 2021, 09:35:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?  FWIW, I too have not gotten a flu shot in many many years.  I did get a flu a couple of times, but A) I didn't pass it on to anyone (that I know of), and B) I wasn't worried about my mortality from the flu.  If I was to catch COIVD, I would be completely worried about both of these things.

I disagree. - there are people who are fearful of just the flu.  My uncle is HIV+.  My father in law is very immuno-compromised (Crohn's disease), with damaged kidneys and skin cancer issues that he deals with, in addition to gastro-intestional flare-ups). 

If either of them catches the flu, they could be hospitalized and/or even die because of their preexisting conditions.  It's not an apples-oranges scenario.  It might be to you, since you're not afraid of the flue, but not to others who can be severely hospitalized or killed by just a plain old flu virus. 

I get the flu shot simply because I would normally spend 3 hours per day commuting in public transportation, sealed in a train car with 50-100 other people in close proximity.  Many of them sniffle and cough their way through the winter months, rather than take a sick day.  I don't want to get sick and miss work or risk giving the flu to my kids (when they were babies it was really important to get the flu shot, since they didn't have strong immune systems yet).  The same goes for COVID.  it would be nice to know that I have some antibodies floating around in my body, just in case I get it.

Fair points.  Generally speaking, COVID is a far greater health threat to the broader population, as well as people with underlying conditions.  Perhaps its a manadarin-to-oranges comparison.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 06:00:38 AM

Quote from: TAC on February 17, 2021, 11:55:58 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 17, 2021, 11:36:28 AM

I think the internet is at fault for those who don't want the vaccine.  People believe anything they read and there is so much bad information out there These days.

Some people believe Power Windows is a good album.

And others think Saxon makes good music.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on February 18, 2021, 06:33:23 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:33:58 AM

Quote from: Grappler on February 17, 2021, 09:35:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?  FWIW, I too have not gotten a flu shot in many many years.  I did get a flu a couple of times, but A) I didn't pass it on to anyone (that I know of), and B) I wasn't worried about my mortality from the flu.  If I was to catch COIVD, I would be completely worried about both of these things.

I disagree. - there are people who are fearful of just the flu.  My uncle is HIV+.  My father in law is very immuno-compromised (Crohn's disease), with damaged kidneys and skin cancer issues that he deals with, in addition to gastro-intestional flare-ups). 

If either of them catches the flu, they could be hospitalized and/or even die because of their preexisting conditions.  It's not an apples-oranges scenario.  It might be to you, since you're not afraid of the flue, but not to others who can be severely hospitalized or killed by just a plain old flu virus. 

I get the flu shot simply because I would normally spend 3 hours per day commuting in public transportation, sealed in a train car with 50-100 other people in close proximity.  Many of them sniffle and cough their way through the winter months, rather than take a sick day.  I don't want to get sick and miss work or risk giving the flu to my kids (when they were babies it was really important to get the flu shot, since they didn't have strong immune systems yet).  The same goes for COVID.  it would be nice to know that I have some antibodies floating around in my body, just in case I get it.

Fair points.  Generally speaking, COVID is a far greater health threat to the broader population, as well as people with underlying conditions.  Perhaps its a manadarin-to-oranges comparison.  :biggrin:

Oh, it's oranges to oranges for sure. You're in way greater risk than you realize, jingle.boy. We get the shot every year because...

(https://scontent-den4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/149948131_2492583301044976_4634313084466780577_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=5FLtfd3Lsj0AX-b9k_w&_nc_ht=scontent-den4-1.xx&oh=95b66e2781e8f4f071c7178d345c4a7f&oe=6055675E)

This is my brother-in-law, 7 years ago this past Monday, waking up after 35 days of being on a ventilator because he couldn't breath on his own due to... you guessed it, the flu. He was the same age you are now, Chad.

Get your shots, people. It quick, cheap and wise. Oh, and Chad, you should get your shingles vaccination too.  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 06:49:56 AM

Quote from: Podaar on February 18, 2021, 06:33:23 AM

Get your shots, people. It quick, cheap and wise. Oh, and Chad, you should get your shingles vaccination too.  ;)

Yeah... been hearing a lot about that lately.  Had a former colleague contract it a few years back, said it was the worst experience of his life.  It's high on my priority list when I can get in to see a GP.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 18, 2021, 07:42:56 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?

Because they are both vaccines.  I'm not comparing a vaccine to a seatbelt.  I would expect most people to know the difference.

And I'd expect most people to know the difference between the flu and COVID-19

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it. 

And yet still, 110M people globally have; 28M Americans - roughly 8% of the US population.  I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic.

Yeah, and maybe a lot of those people didn't take the necessary precautions and didn't follow guidelines.  I have been and that's why I haven't gotten it and also haven't been at risk of giving it to someone else.  I have been doing my part like I stated before if you bothered to read it.

That's twice you've accused people of not reading your posts because your points have been challenged.  Defensive much?  Lighten up pal - no need to be such a dick.  You're right, many may not have taken precautions (or outright disregarded them*), but there are too many instances of people taking every precaution they can, and still getting it.

"Doing your part" in the (hopefully near) future won't be the same as it was in the past.  For most, it won't be closures.  It won't be masking any/everywhere all the time.  It won't be physical distancing.  It will be herd immunity thru vaccination.  By all means, people who don't want to (or won't) vaccinate can continue to do their part by masking, staying at home only for essential purposes, and keeping 6 feet away from the rest of society.

*And I suspect that's because many bought into the politicization of the pandemic??  You don't think the former POTUS took every precaution - and yet he still contracted it.

I've written this before.

California, one of the most liberal (if not THE most liberal) states in the union, and a state that implemented what some call Draconian measures to lock this down.

Florida, one of the most... Florida.  Florida-man.  'Nuff said.

California and Florida have almost the same cases/million and deaths/million.  (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)
         CA:   Cases/Million:   88,379                Deaths/Million:      1,213
         FL:    Cases/Million:   85,886                Deaths/Million:      1,356

CA has 3% (roughly) more cases per million, and about 9% less deaths per million.   Bear in mind, though that the average age in Florida is about five and a half years higher (42.2 vs. 36.8) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_age).   We know that age is a factor in mortality here.

I wonder how many people think the numbers of cases/deaths we're seeing around the nation are driven largely by "red states" and the "[insert your favorite disparaging word for citizens of the red states]" that live there who don't give a shit about other people?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 18, 2021, 07:44:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?

Because they are both vaccines.  I'm not comparing a vaccine to a seatbelt.  I would expect most people to know the difference.

And I'd expect most people to know the difference between the flu and COVID-19

Why don't you explain the difference and enlighten us all?

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it. 

And yet still, 110M people globally have; 28M Americans - roughly 8% of the US population.  I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic.

Yeah, and maybe a lot of those people didn't take the necessary precautions and didn't follow guidelines.  I have been and that's why I haven't gotten it and also haven't been at risk of giving it to someone else.  I have been doing my part like I stated before if you bothered to read it.

That's twice you've accused people of not reading your posts because your points have been challenged.  Defensive much?  Lighten up pal - no need to be such a dick. 

My points weren't challenged.  They were pretty much dismissed and you basically accused me of not doing my part because I'm not interested in getting the vaccine.  Who are you to judge me huh?  Funny, kinda seems like you were being the dick.   :loser:

Oh BTW, thanks for reminding me why I don't frequent this forum that much anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 18, 2021, 07:53:51 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 06:49:56 AM

Quote from: Podaar on February 18, 2021, 06:33:23 AM

Get your shots, people. It quick, cheap and wise. Oh, and Chad, you should get your shingles vaccination too.  ;)

Yeah... been hearing a lot about that lately.  Had a former colleague contract it a few years back, said it was the worst experience of his life.  It's high on my priority list when I can get in to see a GP.

It would take me until lunch to list all the stuff my dad has had to go through physically (he's beaten cancer twice, and he has had artificial knees and hips for over 20 years; there's a stroke in there, a spinal fusion and a bowel resection as well.), and he still talks about the shingles. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 09:16:31 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 18, 2021, 07:44:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?

Because they are both vaccines.  I'm not comparing a vaccine to a seatbelt.  I would expect most people to know the difference.

And I'd expect most people to know the difference between the flu and COVID-19

Why don't you explain the difference and enlighten us all?

I don't feed trolls.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 18, 2021, 07:44:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it. 

And yet still, 110M people globally have; 28M Americans - roughly 8% of the US population.  I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic.

Yeah, and maybe a lot of those people didn't take the necessary precautions and didn't follow guidelines.  I have been and that's why I haven't gotten it and also haven't been at risk of giving it to someone else.  I have been doing my part like I stated before if you bothered to read it.

That's twice you've accused people of not reading your posts because your points have been challenged.  Defensive much?  Lighten up pal - no need to be such a dick. 

My points weren't challenged.  They were pretty much dismissed and you basically accused me of not doing my part because I'm not interested in getting the vaccine.  Who are you to judge me huh?  Funny, kinda seems like you were being the dick.   :loser:

Oh BTW, thanks for reminding me why I don't frequent this forum that much anymore.

You're welcome!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 18, 2021, 09:22:29 AM

The Florida vs. California thing is interesting.  I do wonder if Florida's more tropical climate plays a role there

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 18, 2021, 09:32:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 09:16:31 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 18, 2021, 07:44:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

The flu shot is also an apples-oranges analogy, so why bring it up?

Because they are both vaccines.  I'm not comparing a vaccine to a seatbelt.  I would expect most people to know the difference.

And I'd expect most people to know the difference between the flu and COVID-19

Why don't you explain the difference and enlighten us all?

I don't feed trolls.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 18, 2021, 07:44:30 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 17, 2021, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 17, 2021, 07:40:03 AM

It's been over a year and I still haven't gotten it. 

And yet still, 110M people globally have; 28M Americans - roughly 8% of the US population.  I guess everyone is free to not do their part to get to the 'end' of a global pandemic.

Yeah, and maybe a lot of those people didn't take the necessary precautions and didn't follow guidelines.  I have been and that's why I haven't gotten it and also haven't been at risk of giving it to someone else.  I have been doing my part like I stated before if you bothered to read it.

That's twice you've accused people of not reading your posts because your points have been challenged.  Defensive much?  Lighten up pal - no need to be such a dick. 

My points weren't challenged.  They were pretty much dismissed and you basically accused me of not doing my part because I'm not interested in getting the vaccine.  Who are you to judge me huh?  Funny, kinda seems like you were being the dick.   :loser:

Oh BTW, thanks for reminding me why I don't frequent this forum that much anymore.

You're welcome!!

you're both being dicks to each other. replying to him only feeds the perceived 'troll' you are talking to. this kind of behavior is a huge reason why i've tried to move to full lurker mode here

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 18, 2021, 09:51:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 18, 2021, 09:22:29 AM

The Florida vs. California thing is interesting.  I do wonder if Florida's more tropical climate plays a role there

Could be.  We've kind of learned that having 100 people in 1000 ft² of space inside isn't the same as having 100 people in 1000 ft² of space outside.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 18, 2021, 09:58:30 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on February 18, 2021, 09:32:26 AM

you're both being dicks to each other. replying to him only feeds the perceived 'troll' you are talking to.

This.  Both of you knock it off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 10:08:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 18, 2021, 07:42:56 AM

California, one of the most liberal (if not THE most liberal) states in the union, and a state that implemented what some call Draconian measures to lock this down.

Florida, one of the most... Florida.  Florida-man.  'Nuff said.

California and Florida have almost the same cases/million and deaths/million.  (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)
         CA:   Cases/Million:   88,379                Deaths/Million:      1,213
         FL:    Cases/Million:   85,886                Deaths/Million:      1,356

CA has 3% (roughly) more cases per million, and about 9% less deaths per million.   Bear in mind, though that the average age in Florida is about five and a half years higher (42.2 vs. 36.8) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_age).   We know that age is a factor in mortality here.

I wonder how many people think the numbers of cases/deaths we're seeing around the nation are driven largely by "red states" and the "[insert your favorite disparaging word for citizens of the red states]" that live there who don't give a shit about other people?

When using those two data points with those two subjects, a correlation between red/blue and case or death counts isn't identifiable.  Looking at the top 10 (worst) states for cases/1M, only 2 are 'blue' (RI and AZ).  In fact, 15 of the top 20 (worst) are 'red'.  I don't think that suggests a correlation, but it's just as meaningful as comparing Florida and CA - I'm not really sure why those two in particular were compared?  Largely populated States with opposite political leanings?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 18, 2021, 10:13:03 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 18, 2021, 09:51:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 18, 2021, 09:22:29 AM

The Florida vs. California thing is interesting.  I do wonder if Florida's more tropical climate plays a role there

Could be.  We've kind of learned that having 100 people in 1000 ft² of space inside isn't the same as having 100 people in 1000 ft² of space outside.

Yeah, I really don't know, but it is interesting to see how states handle things differently yet the results aren't too different or even when the stricter state is worse off.  But just looking at a heat map of the US lately, and you'll see Florida is the only hot spot right now.

Anyway, I follow this every few days https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-all-key-metrics (https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-all-key-metrics) and those steep drops are highly encouraging.  There's a part of me that just wants to fast forward to May already.  Between the non stop snow and the pandemic, I feel so done with this winter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 18, 2021, 10:20:44 AM

Not sure what's a bigger first, Chad getting a public warning, or Bosk agreeing with Mike.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 18, 2021, 11:43:27 AM

Some more good news on the vaccine front

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-theres-evidence-covid-19-200423650.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-theres-evidence-covid-19-200423650.html)

Quote

Taken together, these two studies suggest that:

Vaccinated people tend to have lower viral loads.

Lower viral loads are linked to less viral spread.

It's possible, then, that vaccinating large numbers of people could help to crush the coronavirus outbreak, by not only keeping vaccinated people healthy, alive, and out of the hospital but also preventing any of those vaccinated people who might get sick (even asymptomatically) from passing their sickness along to others.

It's been questionable whether vaccinated people could still spread the virus, but some new data from Isreal may show that the vaccines do help stopping the spread which is great news if it turns out to be true, more studies will need to be done, but the initial data suggests it's likely.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 18, 2021, 11:50:16 AM

Only side effect I've had today is an extremely sore upper arm at the injection point. Other than that.....all good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 11:51:10 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 18, 2021, 11:50:16 AM

Only side effect I've had today is an extremely sore upper arm at the injection point. Other than that.....all good.

YOU'RE ALIVE!!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 18, 2021, 11:59:21 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 10:08:49 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 18, 2021, 07:42:56 AM

California, one of the most liberal (if not THE most liberal) states in the union, and a state that implemented what some call Draconian measures to lock this down.

Florida, one of the most... Florida.  Florida-man.  'Nuff said.

California and Florida have almost the same cases/million and deaths/million.  (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)
         CA:   Cases/Million:   88,379                Deaths/Million:      1,213
         FL:    Cases/Million:   85,886                Deaths/Million:      1,356

CA has 3% (roughly) more cases per million, and about 9% less deaths per million.   Bear in mind, though that the average age in Florida is about five and a half years higher (42.2 vs. 36.8) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_age).   We know that age is a factor in mortality here.

I wonder how many people think the numbers of cases/deaths we're seeing around the nation are driven largely by "red states" and the "[insert your favorite disparaging word for citizens of the red states]" that live there who don't give a shit about other people?

When using those two data points with those two subjects, a correlation between red/blue and case or death counts isn't identifiable.  Looking at the top 10 (worst) states for cases/1M, only 2 are 'blue' (RI and AZ).  In fact, 15 of the top 20 (worst) are 'red'.  I don't think that suggests a correlation, but it's just as meaningful as comparing Florida and CA - I'm not really sure why those two in particular were compared?  Largely populated States with opposite political leanings?

One objective:  Two of the four largest states in the union (1 and 3)
One subjective:  The PERCEPTION is that Florida is an outlier on the reasonable-ness scale; the whole "Florida-man" meme thing, the pictures of spring break inanity, countered by the PERCEPTION, from the lectures from limosine liberals, that somehow California is "on the right side of history".   
One sort of a little of both:  Trump is affiliated/associated with COVID failure, and Florida, Kamala Harris is affiliated/associated with the knights on white horses riding in to save us from ourselves, and California.

And it might be a correlation, it's not a cause; when you flip that to "deaths/million", the list is 7 out of 10 blue.

The entire point is to say that this look is relatively meaningless, and mostly political.  It's an idea searching for proof, not the other way around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on February 18, 2021, 07:39:42 PM

I can't begin to express how irritated I am right now.

My father in law is 69, has Crohn's disease, which has wrecked his intestines and kidneys (he uses an ileostomy bag - like a colostomy, but it's his small intestine that empties into it).  He's had a heart attack and two strokes four years ago.  If he gets COVID, he's dead.  His body wouldn't be able to take it - Crohn's has destroyed him, physically. 

Our entire family knows this, they know how many times he's been in the hospital and nearly died from gastro-related infections, especially his sisters, who have taken care of him so many times.
 His two older sisters subscribed to the political conspiracies that have been popular with one political party this year.  Those sisters ostracized my wife and I from the family because we voted against the candidate that promoted them and continue to refuse to talk to us over political differences.

So his sisters found out that he's getting his first COVID vaccine shot tomorrow.  My wife spent hours searching for appointments and finally got him in.  He's been asking about when he can get a shot for the last 4 months, when it was announced that they were approved.  He knows he needs the shot or he'll die if he gets COVID.  His sisters called him today and told him NOT to get the shot, citing vaccine conspiracies to him (not enough testing on seniors, seniors dying, blah blah blah) and that it's too risky for him to get the vaccine.  They (and one niece) have all agreed that they won't be getting the shot, so they decided to take the most vulnerable person in our family and try to persuade him out of getting it too, as if it's any of their business. 

Thankfully, he just hung up on them and is committed to getting his vaccine.  I now have first-hand proof of the political idiocy of this vaccine debate.  My wife and I are furious at her aunts, but there's not much we can do without creating additional family drama that none of us feel like dealing with.  I'm so glad that despite my father in law's many physical and sometimes lack of common sense issues, he still has enough smarts to know when he's being fed a bunch of BS.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2021, 07:44:07 PM

Good for him, Grap.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 18, 2021, 08:18:29 PM

Quote from: Grappler on February 18, 2021, 07:39:42 PM

I can't begin to express how irritated I am right now.

My father in law is 69, has Crohn's disease, which has wrecked his intestines and kidneys (he uses an ileostomy bag - like a colostomy, but it's his small intestine that empties into it).  He's had a heart attack and two strokes four years ago.  If he gets COVID, he's dead.  His body wouldn't be able to take it - Crohn's has destroyed him, physically. 

Our entire family knows this, they know how many times he's been in the hospital and nearly died from gastro-related infections, especially his sisters, who have taken care of him so many times.
 His two older sisters subscribed to the political conspiracies that have been popular with one political party this year.  Those sisters ostracized my wife and I from the family because we voted against the candidate that promoted them and continue to refuse to talk to us over political differences.

So his sisters found out that he's getting his first COVID vaccine shot tomorrow.  My wife spent hours searching for appointments and finally got him in.  He's been asking about when he can get a shot for the last 4 months, when it was announced that they were approved.  He knows he needs the shot or he'll die if he gets COVID.  His sisters called him today and told him NOT to get the shot, citing vaccine conspiracies to him (not enough testing on seniors, seniors dying, blah blah blah) and that it's too risky for him to get the vaccine.  They (and one niece) have all agreed that they won't be getting the shot, so they decided to take the most vulnerable person in our family and try to persuade him out of getting it too, as if it's any of their business. 

Thankfully, he just hung up on them and is committed to getting his vaccine.  I now have first-hand proof of the political idiocy of this vaccine debate.  My wife and I are furious at her aunts, but there's not much we can do without creating additional family drama that none of us feel like dealing with.  I'm so glad that despite my father in law's many physical and sometimes lack of common sense issues, he still has enough smarts to know when he's being fed a bunch of BS.

I am not getting the Vax. As I am young, and feel there's more that need it more than I do at this point (and me being from a minority that is considered high risk, to me, that doesn't matter at all, race shouldn't play a factor into it, just because most people in our race category has these underlying conditions, some of us are actually fine, and even got it and were fine, some of our people think they got it already as they got hit with a really bad sickness and people got laid out, but they are still alive and fine). I am also not one to tell people not to get it either. It's their choice whether to get it or not, It's not my decision to tell anyone what to do with their own bodies.

If anyone feels they need it, then by all means get it. That is not up to anyone but themselves.

Good for him for hanging up on them too. Sometimes, those type of people also need the good slap in the face type of treatment to understand it, it's unfortunate really, but there are times where people won't understand or get it until it is too late. It's like addicts not realizing they have a problem until they're on their deathbed, or when they do something that they know themselves is wrong. And sometimes, that realization won't occur until they themselves are struck with whatever it is, in this case the virus, and it could even be other things, like going without the comforts of life that others do not have.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on February 18, 2021, 08:19:45 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 18, 2021, 11:50:16 AM

Only side effect I've had today is an extremely sore upper arm at the injection point. Other than that.....all good.

Good to hear!  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2021, 08:20:37 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 18, 2021, 11:51:10 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 18, 2021, 11:50:16 AM

Only side effect I've had today is an extremely sore upper arm at the injection point. Other than that.....all good.

YOU'RE ALIVE!!!!

 :lol


Phew, that was a close one!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on February 18, 2021, 10:07:01 PM

Saw this today and, I don't know. I struggle to understand conspiracy theory people. Maybe that's the problem, they can't be understood.

This particular section of the story just made me  :facepalm: :

About 40 Marines gathered recently in a California conference room for an information session from medical staff. One officer, who was not authorized to publicly discuss private conversations and spoke on condition of anonymity, said Marines are more comfortable posing questions about the vaccine in smaller groups.

The officer said one Marine, citing a widely circulated and false conspiracy theory, said: “I heard that this thing is actually a tracking device.” The medical staff, said the officer, quickly debunked that theory, and pointed to the Marine’s cellphone, noting that it’s an effective tracker.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/thousands-service-members-saying-no-covid-vaccine-n1258214

Kudos to the medical professional. Almost every human carries a tracker with them everywhere they go. This whole microchip implant thing, like we are cats and dogs is just ludicrous. I don't know, stuff like this makes me weep for this country and our race.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 18, 2021, 10:28:25 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on February 18, 2021, 10:07:01 PM

Saw this today and, I don't know. I struggle to understand conspiracy theory people. Maybe that's the problem, they can't be understood.

This particular section of the story just made me  :facepalm: :

About 40 Marines gathered recently in a California conference room for an information session from medical staff. One officer, who was not authorized to publicly discuss private conversations and spoke on condition of anonymity, said Marines are more comfortable posing questions about the vaccine in smaller groups.

The officer said one Marine, citing a widely circulated and false conspiracy theory, said: “I heard that this thing is actually a tracking device.” The medical staff, said the officer, quickly debunked that theory, and pointed to the Marine’s cellphone, noting that it’s an effective tracker.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/thousands-service-members-saying-no-covid-vaccine-n1258214

Kudos to the medical professional. Almost every human carries a tracker with them everywhere they go. This whole microchip implant thing, like we are cats and dogs is just ludicrous. I don't know, stuff like this makes me weep for this country and our race.

You'd think they'd have figured that out when they introduced Contact Tracing. It's like, what do you think Contact Tracing is? and what is used on?....(And give them that little flick to the head).

Then tell them about the Eyes in the sky, everytime you go into the store, and now even outside with Google Earth.  :lol

It's why I joke and smile and wave.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 19, 2021, 07:21:47 AM

I've tried to say this in other ways, but from where I'm sitting it's not JUST "idiocy".  There's a healthy dose of FEAR in all this and as we all know, people do some wacky shit in the face of fear.   Add to that the fact that we seem to increasingly be a society that is commited to the inductive fallacy, that is, we have a conclusion - often rooted in emotion, not fact - and we fit those pieces of information we have to that conclusion where we need to in order to justify that emotion.   "Feelings are facts" is not just a meme or bumper sticker.

I'm going through this with some of my relatives too; it's not about "politics", at least not like we talk about them here.  For me, it's flat out fear, and the politics are just the pieces of information that are grabbed onto to sustain the fear.   My parents are 81 and 83.  Dad has severe acute early onset arthritis; his immune system has been shot for decades.  Minor colds are a trauma for him.  Mom has Alzheimer's, and is at that tipping point where she's still "mom", but not the mom I remember.  These two are a psychologist's wet dream; she's supported him his entire life, did all those physical things he could not do for him, from dressing him to cleaning him to sometimes literally carrying him.   He, in turn, did all those mental things that she wasn't great at; bills, banks, insurances, taking care of the home(s), etc.   They spend EVERY MINUTE of every day together.  She was in the hospital a month or so ago, and it was the first nights they didn't sleep in the same bed since AT LEAST 1990.  Now that she has Alzheimer's, my dad feels this deep obligation to return the favor so to speak (I've had to pledge to my dad multiple times that I will take care of mom if he goes first; it's a given, but he wants to hear it).

My dad is the perfect candidate for the shot.  90, 95% of the time, he's all in and wants to get it.  He's - mostly - a man of science, but his information sources are limited, and so I don't always know where he's getting his information.  I will, on occasion, get a call like this: "Hey Stads [he does not call me Stads], someone was telling me [something fucking ludicrous]".   That someone could be a neighbor, it could be Tucker Carlson, it could be something he overheard at the CVS, it could be something a doctor/nurse told him.  Who knows?  And I do what I can to set him straight, but I'm only as good as the questions I get.  I've been trying to get him one (Florida can blow me, BTW) and I will, but in the meantime, I have to basically "manage" him and make sure the fears and concerns don't overwhelm.   He's literally more afraid of dying than all other fears in his life combined.  That feeds this stuff.   While my dad is not what he used to be, by a long shot (he was, literally the smartest person I've ever met) he's no idiot.  He IS, though, a scared, tired old man who is overwhelmed with life and information, and a soupcon of desperation. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 19, 2021, 08:25:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 19, 2021, 07:21:47 AM

I've tried to say this in other ways, but from where I'm sitting it's not JUST "idiocy".  There's a healthy dose of FEAR in all this and as we all know, people do some wacky shit in the face of fear.   Add to that the fact that we seem to increasingly be a society that is commited to the inductive fallacy, that is, we have a conclusion - often rooted in emotion, not fact - and we fit those pieces of information we have to that conclusion where we need to in order to justify that emotion.   "Feelings are facts" is not just a meme or bumper sticker.

I'm going through this with some of my relatives too; it's not about "politics", at least not like we talk about them here.  For me, it's flat out fear, and the politics are just the pieces of information that are grabbed onto to sustain the fear.   My parents are 81 and 83.  Dad has severe acute early onset arthritis; his immune system has been shot for decades.  Minor colds are a trauma for him.  Mom has Alzheimer's, and is at that tipping point where she's still "mom", but not the mom I remember.  These two are a psychologist's wet dream; she's supported him his entire life, did all those physical things he could not do for him, from dressing him to cleaning him to sometimes literally carrying him.   He, in turn, did all those mental things that she wasn't great at; bills, banks, insurances, taking care of the home(s), etc.   They spend EVERY MINUTE of every day together.  She was in the hospital a month or so ago, and it was the first nights they didn't sleep in the same bed since AT LEAST 1990.  Now that she has Alzheimer's, my dad feels this deep obligation to return the favor so to speak (I've had to pledge to my dad multiple times that I will take care of mom if he goes first; it's a given, but he wants to hear it).

My dad is the perfect candidate for the shot.  90, 95% of the time, he's all in and wants to get it.  He's - mostly - a man of science, but his information sources are limited, and so I don't always know where he's getting his information.  I will, on occasion, get a call like this: "Hey Stads [he does not call me Stads], someone was telling me [something fucking ludicrous]".   That someone could be a neighbor, it could be Tucker Carlson, it could be something he overheard at the CVS, it could be something a doctor/nurse told him.  Who knows?  And I do what I can to set him straight, but I'm only as good as the questions I get.  I've been trying to get him one (Florida can blow me, BTW) and I will, but in the meantime, I have to basically "manage" him and make sure the fears and concerns don't overwhelm.   He's literally more afraid of dying than all other fears in his life combined.  That feeds this stuff.   While my dad is not what he used to be, by a long shot (he was, literally the smartest person I've ever met) he's no idiot.  He IS, though, a scared, tired old man who is overwhelmed with life and information, and a soupcon of desperation.

That's all this is, is fear.

Ask people what are they afraid of with this virus, and the main answer is fear of dying.

It's the fear of death....and me being me, I wonder why do people Fear death? Is it actually Death itself they're afraid of? Or is it, the pain of dying, the thought of not being here anymore, the worry of your family and kin? Each person will have their own answer. This is why I have been saying this is personal...It's a decision that is personal first, before it is wordly. It's made us realize things about Life and Society. It's awakened us to the realities of life and the priorities.

Do we continue living this way, for the comforts we have? Or do we, change and learn not to depend on certain things for basic necessities to survive and live?

Basically, you can either live in fear or understand the fear and face it...

And as history has taught us, everyone has their own solutions.

Imagine this, how are those Indigenous People that live in the jungles dealing with this...And then add in the effect of what happened when the colonizers came to "The New World". Theirs Tribes that attack planes and all that stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a personal decision based on one's personal circumstances.  It could be fear and a number of other legitimate reasons, but still personal whether they get the vaccine or not.  People are losing their jobs right now due to not being vaccinated because of someone else's fear?  Maybe that's the real problem.  Let's not forget that individuals react differently to vaccines just like they react differently to the virus itself.  Some people can't have the flu vaccine because they are allergic to eggs or chicken.  So, in all fairness, it's a multitude of fears and certain conditions and the vaccine is no guarantee anyway.  Get the vaccine or don't based on personal needs and/or concerns.  It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on February 19, 2021, 09:43:46 AM

My mother got her first shot yesterday (Moderna) which feels really good as in one week we will all gather to my fathers funeral.

She will be at least partly protected by then.

Will be very strange to have to keep a distance at those circumstances.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 19, 2021, 09:45:25 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a personal decision based on one's personal circumstances.  It could be fear and a number of other legitimate reasons, but still personal whether they get the vaccine or not.  People are losing their jobs right now due to not being vaccinated because of someone else's fear?  Maybe that's the real problem.  Let's not forget that individuals react differently to vaccines just like they react differently to the virus itself.  Some people can't have the flu vaccine because they are allergic to eggs or chicken.  So, in all fairness, it's a multitude of fears and certain conditions and the vaccine is no guarantee anyway.  Get the vaccine or don't based on personal needs and/or concerns.  It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

That's exactly what I meant by personal.

They're using benefits, privileges, and even religion against people now. How is that not force. They're giving an illusion that's it's your choice. What they actually mean is, it's your choice...to face the consequences or submit.

That's control and it's because we rely on the government for our health. Which should be a reliance on ourselves to better our health. A doctor should have more reliance from us with our health than the government. And also, how many people actually listen to their Doctor, how many people actually ignore the health advice given because they enjoy the comforts of life, or because it tastes/feels good, when that very thing is what is killing them?

I see this all the time. And just wonder WTF?!....Why are you telling me to get this for my health and your health when you won't even do what your doctor says and give up smoking or eating that McDonalds, or better yet, eating that juicy bacon that sizzles, because it's what is killing you?

 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 19, 2021, 09:50:52 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on February 19, 2021, 09:43:46 AM

My mother got her first shot yesterday (Moderna) which feels really good as in one week we will all gather to my fathers funeral.

She will be at least partly protected by then.

Will be very strange to have to keep a distance at those circumstances.

This is not spoken enough of, how difficult it is to hold a funeral for those are have passed during this pandemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Isn't it a road many countries are on already?  Here in most provinces, students have to have certain vaccinations , or cannot attend school.  Most people who work in hospitals are required to get a flu shot.  There are some reasons for exemptions - none of which are "I don't feel like it".

On certain public health issues, people don't always have the right to make choices for themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 19, 2021, 01:07:16 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Isn't it a road many countries are on already?  Here in most provinces, students have to have certain vaccinations , or cannot attend school.  Most people who work in hospitals are required to get a flu shot.  There are some reasons for exemptions - none of which are "I don't feel like it".

On certain public health issues, people don't always have the right to make choices for themselves.

*insert bullshit 'but my freedom' argument here*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 19, 2021, 01:10:31 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.

Uh, you understand that vaccines for children have been mandated in most states in the US longer than you've been alive, right? 


These "slippery slope" arguments are generally meritless.  Yes, there are going to be exceptions for medical reasons, but generally speaking vaccinations against communicable, infectious diseases that kill people have increased the life expectancy of humans world-wide by as much as 30 years in some developing countries where they've only recently managed to eradicate shit like smallpox. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 19, 2021, 01:22:28 PM

It IS a slippery slope if it's punishable by law. Not if it refusing vaccinations results in a lack of privileges.

If me not getting vaccinated (I will, no worries) results in my goin to jail or being heavily fined...that is very bad.

If me not getting vaccinated means I am restricted from doing things I want to do...that's life and already reality.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 19, 2021, 01:26:45 PM

Well, yeah, I think that goes without saying?  I've never heard of anyone being jailed or fined for not getting their kids vaccinated. 


But the rules are there for good reason.  You want to put your kids in public school next to mine get them vaccinated or fuck off and home school them if you refuse to vaccinate. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on February 19, 2021, 01:29:15 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 19, 2021, 01:26:45 PM

Well, yeah, I think that goes without saying?

Oh, I agree. That's just how I'm interpreting Duble's post. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 19, 2021, 01:47:47 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 19, 2021, 01:10:31 PM

generally speaking vaccinations against communicable, infectious diseases that kill people have increased the life expectancy of humans world-wide by as much as 30 years in some developing countries where they've only recently managed to eradicate shit like smallpox.

To expand upon this, without vaccinations of covid for the last year, the average life expectancy has gone down

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/us/covid-life-expectancy.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/us/covid-life-expectancy.html)

Quote

Thursday’s data gives the first full picture of the pandemic’s effect on American expected life spans, which dropped to 77.8 years from 78.8 years in 2019. It also showed a deepening of racial and ethnic disparities: Life expectancy of the Black population declined by 2.7 years in the first half of 2020, slicing away 20 years of gains. The life expectancy gap between Black and white Americans, which had been narrowing, is now at six years, the widest it has been since 1998.
...
driven largely by Covid-19, is not likely to last as long because deaths from the virus are easing and the population is slowly getting vaccinated. The last time a pandemic caused a major decline in life expectancy was 1918, when hundreds of thousands of Americans died from the flu pandemic.

So kirk is 100% correct that the reason we can live as long as we can is due to vaccinations. Vaccinations against covid is likely the only way we get our life expectancy back to what it was before the pandemic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 19, 2021, 01:48:57 PM

 It's why I say...I guess I'm a Leper now. Gonna be exiled to live outside the Norm because I'm considered sick and contagious.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 19, 2021, 02:03:36 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 19, 2021, 01:47:47 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 19, 2021, 01:10:31 PM

generally speaking vaccinations against communicable, infectious diseases that kill people have increased the life expectancy of humans world-wide by as much as 30 years in some developing countries where they've only recently managed to eradicate shit like smallpox.

To expand upon this, without vaccinations of covid for the last year, the average life expectancy has gone down

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/us/covid-life-expectancy.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/us/covid-life-expectancy.html)

Quote

Thursday’s data gives the first full picture of the pandemic’s effect on American expected life spans, which dropped to 77.8 years from 78.8 years in 2019. It also showed a deepening of racial and ethnic disparities: Life expectancy of the Black population declined by 2.7 years in the first half of 2020, slicing away 20 years of gains. The life expectancy gap between Black and white Americans, which had been narrowing, is now at six years, the widest it has been since 1998.
...
driven largely by Covid-19, is not likely to last as long because deaths from the virus are easing and the population is slowly getting vaccinated. The last time a pandemic caused a major decline in life expectancy was 1918, when hundreds of thousands of Americans died from the flu pandemic.

So kirk is 100% correct that the reason we can live as long as we can is due to vaccinations. Vaccinations against covid is likely the only way we get our life expectancy back to what it was before the pandemic.

Age is just a number... :biggrin:

Life Expectancy, isn't a concept we used to live by. My grandma's and Grandpa's didn't even know when they were born. Some of our elders didn't know at all, so they just wrote down whatever date, based ok their looks, they could very well have been way older than the papers say they are.

To us, life expectancy is based on how you feel. There's old men who still run, who still walk our mesas in Hopi, and are still active, same with the women. It's related to the concept of strength of ones will, the saying "Strong at Heart".

This is how I view the concept of Life Expectancy, and agree with the phrase "Age is just a number".

Because our life expectancy has gone way down since the arrival of the Spaniards (this is true whom really came here out of all of Europe).

Also, it's exactly why I don't like health insurance and think it's bullshit. Based on your life risks determines your eligibility for how much the insurance will cover you. If you skydive and smoke, while also scuba diving with the sharks, I wonder how much that persons insurance costs.  :biggrin:


Also, People became a lot more sanitary now than they ever were. People stopped spitting in streets. People actually started to sneeze in their hands or arms, people whom are sick and went out are not as common as it once was. I am sure these things play a big role in people not catching it as much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 19, 2021, 02:43:26 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 19, 2021, 01:07:16 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Isn't it a road many countries are on already?  Here in most provinces, students have to have certain vaccinations , or cannot attend school.  Most people who work in hospitals are required to get a flu shot.  There are some reasons for exemptions - none of which are "I don't feel like it".

On certain public health issues, people don't always have the right to make choices for themselves.

*insert bullshit 'but my freedom' argument here*

You don't have to agree,  but calling it "bullshit" is a little... harsh.    It's not really arguable that people have a right to their bodies.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 19, 2021, 03:00:30 PM

I don't disagree with much of this  at all (all my kids were and are vaccinated, and I will get the COVID vaccine just as soon as I am able), but not everyone thinks it goes without saying.  The slippery slope isn't' just on the "vaccinated" side of the coin, and we're not JUST talking about kids.  Do you throw out an 85 year old woman from her nursing home because she refuses to get a vaccine?  How about a 55 year old from their living community?   Does it matter if they own or rent?   Can/should I be denied my right to vote without a vaccine (and before you answer, think about all the other things we've decided aren't really appropriate to deny a right to vote)?  How about denying access to an emergency room or hospital if you haven't been vaccinated?

FYI, the average life expectancy for an American dropped an entire YEAR, almost solely due to the pandemic (https://apnews.com/article/us-life-expectancy-huge-decline-f4caaf4555563d09e927f1798136a869). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 03:42:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 19, 2021, 02:43:26 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 19, 2021, 01:07:16 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Isn't it a road many countries are on already?  Here in most provinces, students have to have certain vaccinations , or cannot attend school.  Most people who work in hospitals are required to get a flu shot.  There are some reasons for exemptions - none of which are "I don't feel like it".

On certain public health issues, people don't always have the right to make choices for themselves.

*insert bullshit 'but my freedom' argument here*

You don't have to agree,  but calling it "bullshit" is a little... harsh.    It's not really arguable that people have a right to their bodies.

Then why is "pro life" a thing?  (and yes, I know that you're pro-choice.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 20, 2021, 06:46:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 03:42:50 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 19, 2021, 02:43:26 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 19, 2021, 01:07:16 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Isn't it a road many countries are on already?  Here in most provinces, students have to have certain vaccinations , or cannot attend school.  Most people who work in hospitals are required to get a flu shot.  There are some reasons for exemptions - none of which are "I don't feel like it".

On certain public health issues, people don't always have the right to make choices for themselves.

*insert bullshit 'but my freedom' argument here*

You don't have to agree,  but calling it "bullshit" is a little... harsh.    It's not really arguable that people have a right to their bodies.

Then why is "pro life" a thing?  (and yes, I know that you're pro-choice.)

Because along with the right to their bodies, people have a right to hold different opinions.   Hard core pro-choice people will disagree, I'm sure, because we all want what we want with no obstacle, but from my perspective, the "pro-lifers" give a context, a friction to the position we've landed in.   In other words, having the counter position is a built in check and balance that tempers what we do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 20, 2021, 08:16:54 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 19, 2021, 02:43:26 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 19, 2021, 01:07:16 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 19, 2021, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 19, 2021, 09:33:41 AM

It's a very slippery slope if vaccines become mandated.  Go down that road and there's no turning back.  People have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Isn't it a road many countries are on already?  Here in most provinces, students have to have certain vaccinations , or cannot attend school.  Most people who work in hospitals are required to get a flu shot.  There are some reasons for exemptions - none of which are "I don't feel like it".

On certain public health issues, people don't always have the right to make choices for themselves.

*insert bullshit 'but my freedom' argument here*

You don't have to agree,  but calling it "bullshit" is a little... harsh.    It's not really arguable that people have a right to their bodies.

Maybe...but people also have a right to live free of fear of severe disease or death from something that is 100% preventable by just a bit of social responsibility. Case in point....I've never had chicken pox, and I'm allergic to the vaccine. I've been tested for the antibodies, they aren't there. Now, even though chicken pox is mostly a harmless childhood disease, if I got it at my age (51), it would be an excruciating month long ordeal at least. This also goes for the immuno-compromised, cancer patients, etc. They need herd immunity to stay safe. With freedom comes responsibility, to act otherwise is just fucking selfish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on February 20, 2021, 08:38:59 AM

Meanwhile in Great Britain, where vaccinations are under way, cases and contagions are rapidly decreasing, it seems. Who would have guessed, uh?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on February 20, 2021, 10:31:44 AM

Navajo Nation - showing us how it's done.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/what-navajo-nation-successful-covid-vaccine-rollout-can-teach-the-rest-of-the-country-193122652.html

Honestly, reading that story, that's how I wish we all would have reacted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 10:34:57 AM

NJ announced today that sports and concert venues can open back up.  Only 10% of indoor capacity is allowed for now, but it's progress.  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on February 22, 2021, 10:48:35 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 10:34:57 AM

NJ announced today that sports and concert venues can open back up.  Only 10% of indoor capacity is allowed for now, but it's progress.  :metal

Imagine going to a DT concert that was limited to 10% capacity. There'd be like .2 chicks there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 10:49:46 AM

Quote from: Chino on February 22, 2021, 10:48:35 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 10:34:57 AM

NJ announced today that sports and concert venues can open back up.  Only 10% of indoor capacity is allowed for now, but it's progress.  :metal

Imagine going to a DT concert that was limited to 10% capacity. There'd be like .2 chicks there.

 :lol I think it opens things up for local bands really.  It's just progress that we are heading in the right direction.  I'm more hopeful today about seeing a concert this summer than I was yesterday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 22, 2021, 11:06:13 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 10:34:57 AM

NJ announced today that sports and concert venues can open back up.  Only 10% of indoor capacity is allowed for now, but it's progress.  :metal

Cool. They've been allowing 10% capacity at the Blues Hockey games and have opened sales if you want to purchase the suites for private groups.

I also noticed that Animals As Leaders is coming to St. Louis on Sept. 19th with the AfterBurner tour......so, some concerts are opening up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 22, 2021, 11:42:30 AM

10%...all in the first two rows. Just try and stop them lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 22, 2021, 12:07:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 18, 2021, 11:43:27 AM

Some more good news on the vaccine front

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-theres-evidence-covid-19-200423650.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-theres-evidence-covid-19-200423650.html)

Quote

Taken together, these two studies suggest that:

Vaccinated people tend to have lower viral loads.

Lower viral loads are linked to less viral spread.

It's possible, then, that vaccinating large numbers of people could help to crush the coronavirus outbreak, by not only keeping vaccinated people healthy, alive, and out of the hospital but also preventing any of those vaccinated people who might get sick (even asymptomatically) from passing their sickness along to others.

It's been questionable whether vaccinated people could still spread the virus, but some new data from Isreal may show that the vaccines do help stopping the spread which is great news if it turns out to be true, more studies will need to be done, but the initial data suggests it's likely.

I meant to respond to this but if we have new data showing this is the case then we're talking about a game changer!  :metal

BTW - I saw on the news last week that they are thinking that this virus was on our shores as far back as October 2019 but I have not been able to find a follow-up story.  I was on deaths bed in August and a friend I worked with sick in September. He tested negative for the flu but was sick for nearly a month. Just sayin.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 22, 2021, 12:20:15 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on February 22, 2021, 12:07:12 PM

BTW - I saw on the news last week that they are thinking that this virus was on our shores as far back as October 2019 but I have not been able to find a follow-up story.  I was on deaths bed in August and a friend I worked with sick in September. He tested negative for the flu but was sick for nearly a month. Just sayin.....

I know five people who all suffered bad sicknesses with all the call signs of Covid-19 in the fall/winter of 2019. All of which were negative on the flu but no answer as to 'what' it was they were suffering from. I don't think there's any doubt this thing has been around and infecting people much longer than believed. And, this isn't a controversial or astute statement......there are a ton of people who have had this over the last year that simply didn't feel the effects or just didn't get tested to confirm and become a 'stat' that passed it on their own.

From start to finish I was literally down one week....day 7 being felt like nothing ever happened. I knew I had it even before the positive test came back because of my taste vanishing.....I probably didn't 'need' to get tested but I chose to in order to provide more info. to the powers that be as far as numbers and contact tracing and what not. But, it wasn't severe and it passed with rest and hydration.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TempusVox on February 22, 2021, 12:29:52 PM

Received my first dose of vaccine (Pfizer) this morning. As per protocol they make you hang out for 15 minutes to make sure you don't have a negative reaction. I didn't even so much as feel the injection and suffered no ill effects. However while sitting there, about 10 minutes after the shot I had a very strong metallic taste in my mouth for about 5 minutes. And my arm is a bit sore now.

Scheduled my second dose for 3 weeks from today, and was told the side effects after are usually a bit of a bitch for a few days, as your immune system goes a bit ballistic on the second dose. Your T-Cells are basically like, "Hey, didn't we just see this shit for the first time 3 weeks ago? I thought we dealt with it then. Send everything we got, and kill everything in sight! We're not dealing with this crap anymore!"

It was sort of surreal and a bit emotional to be sitting there thinking I was one step closer to at some point hopefully returning as close to the old normal as possible. While thinking of the half a million people, and counting, who weren't so lucky as to make it until they could get vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM

No motive, just curious, but how are all the less than 65's getting the shot?  Connecticut announced today that 55 and over can start signing up on March 1, and 45 and older on March 22.  Are other states ahead of that schedule?

Anyone in those states need a roommate?   :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 01:45:18 PM

NJ is eligible for anyone with underlying conditions.

My best friend and his wife already got their 2nd shots, but they are healthy mid 30 year olds.  I don't know how they got in, he told me his wife found a glitch in the system.  I think they lied about having underlying health issues (or maybe they have some and just lied to me).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 01:51:02 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 22, 2021, 12:20:15 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on February 22, 2021, 12:07:12 PM

BTW - I saw on the news last week that they are thinking that this virus was on our shores as far back as October 2019 but I have not been able to find a follow-up story.  I was on deaths bed in August and a friend I worked with sick in September. He tested negative for the flu but was sick for nearly a month. Just sayin.....

I know five people who all suffered bad sicknesses with all the call signs of Covid-19 in the fall/winter of 2019. All of which were negative on the flu but no answer as to 'what' it was they were suffering from. I don't think there's any doubt this thing has been around and infecting people much longer than believed. And, this isn't a controversial or astute statement......there are a ton of people who have had this over the last year that simply didn't feel the effects or just didn't get tested to confirm and become a 'stat' that passed it on their own.

From start to finish I was literally down one week....day 7 being felt like nothing ever happened. I knew I had it even before the positive test came back because of my taste vanishing.....I probably didn't 'need' to get tested but I chose to in order to provide more info. to the powers that be as far as numbers and contact tracing and what not. But, it wasn't severe and it passed with rest and hydration.

A lot of people from my Tribe got bed ridden sick during December on till January. My dad, got like this and was mopey all day, and basically just slept. Everyone is fine, and even at that people still wanted to go do things, and some toughed it out to do our things we do. They were all told the same thing, that it was just a worse flu and to go home and rest. I have no idea if they were told they had flu or not.

Even Misha from Periphery talked about that with Herman Li, when quite a few people on their Tour Crew was getting sick and walking around zombified and even they were telling them they should just go home, but they felt they needed to finish their obligations for the tour.

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM

No motive, just curious, but how are all the less than 65's getting the shot?  Connecticut announced today that 55 and over can start signing up on March 1, and 45 and older on March 22.  Are other states ahead of that schedule?

Anyone in those states need a roommate?   :) :)

Well, for some of us it is required to take it. I did not, and am now facing those consequences as I had no choice. But it is still my choice to not get it and face those consequences which I am fine with.

I would gladly have given my shot to those whom wanted it.

You have the governments giving Tribes, and Minorites priority shots, while there are others out there whom are desperate and dressing up as elderly to get a vaccine.
https://youtu.be/aI6jDM_C_Mo

That's what I don't like about the way the vaccine is being administered. It should be that all the old people should be able to get it, and the people that are susceptible. Just because my Race is shown to have high amounts of Underlying Conditions that make us susceptible to catching Covid, does not mean I am, nor would I be worried if I do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 01:52:58 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 01:45:18 PM

NJ is eligible for anyone with underlying conditions.

My best friend and his wife already got their 2nd shots, but they are healthy mid 30 year olds.  I don't know how they got in, he told me his wife found a glitch in the system.  I think they lied about having underlying health issues (or maybe they have some and just lied to me).

Quote

An estimated 60 percent of American adults have at least one chronic medical condition. Obesity is one of the most common underlying conditions that increases one’s risk for severe illness – with about 40 percent of U.S. adults having obesity.  The more underlying medical conditions people have, the higher their risk.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0625-update-expands-covid-19.html


I find it incredibly informational just how many people have at least one chronic medical condition in the US. Why is that?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 22, 2021, 01:57:09 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM

No motive, just curious, but how are all the less than 65's getting the shot?

In MA, governor Charlie Baker signed an executive order that allows for "caretakers" of people over 65 to get vaccinated at the same time/place as the over 65 person they brought to the vaccination center.  My younger brother (he's 50) brought my mother (76) to get her first shot (Moderna) last week and he got his first shot at the same time, thanks to that executive order.


I'm 57 and I won't qualify until July

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 22, 2021, 01:58:58 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 01:52:58 PM

I find it incredibly informational just how many people have at least one chronic medical condition in the US. Why is that?

Obesity is a HUGE problem here in the United States and it's classified as a "chronic" medical condition because, well, it IS a chronic condition.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 22, 2021, 02:00:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM

No motive, just curious, but how are all the less than 65's getting the shot?

My position for the Healthcare company I work for was classified '1A' as I'm in and out of hospitals and sensitive areas in those hospitals for my job. I received 'official' credentials classifying me as '1A'....went online to Missouri's Health department and registered. Within a week I had an appointment. First shot of Pfizer last week.....second one coming on 3/10.


But here's the kicker. I showed up to the local Fire Station where these shots were being administered with my credentials/paper work showing I was 1A.....they didn't aske to see a thing. I walked in.....signed my name.....they scheduled my second shot.....I walked over and got my shot......sat in a chair for 10 minutes and then left. I'm willing to be anyone could have walked in there and got a shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 02:05:25 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 22, 2021, 01:58:58 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 01:52:58 PM

I find it incredibly informational just how many people have at least one chronic medical condition in the US. Why is that?

Obesity is a HUGE problem here in the United States and it's classified as a "chronic" medical condition because, well, it IS a chronic condition.

Because people just love that McDonalds, and make an uproar when they get rid of something... :lol

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=McDonalds+Hi-C

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 02:06:37 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 22, 2021, 02:00:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM

No motive, just curious, but how are all the less than 65's getting the shot?

My position for the Healthcare company I work for was classified '1A' as I'm in and out of hospitals and sensitive areas in those hospitals for my job. I received 'official' credentials classifying me as '1A'....went online to Missouri's Health department and registered. Within a week I had an appointment. First shot of Pfizer last week.....second one coming on 3/10.


But here's the kicker. I showed up to the local Fire Station where these shots were being administered with my credentials/paper work showing I was 1A.....they didn't aske to see a thing. I walked in.....signed my name.....they scheduled my second shot.....I walked over and got my shot......sat in a chair for 10 minutes and then left. I'm willing to be anyone could have walked in there and got a shot.

My friend noticed the same thing. She saw that the ones administering the shots didn't even look at her papers. Just that she had it and put it on the side in a pile with the others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 02:12:04 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 01:52:58 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 01:45:18 PM

NJ is eligible for anyone with underlying conditions.

My best friend and his wife already got their 2nd shots, but they are healthy mid 30 year olds.  I don't know how they got in, he told me his wife found a glitch in the system.  I think they lied about having underlying health issues (or maybe they have some and just lied to me).

Quote

An estimated 60 percent of American adults have at least one chronic medical condition. Obesity is one of the most common underlying conditions that increases one’s risk for severe illness – with about 40 percent of U.S. adults having obesity.  The more underlying medical conditions people have, the higher their risk.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0625-update-expands-covid-19.html


I find it incredibly informational just how many people have at least one chronic medical condition in the US. Why is that?

Oh for sure, my friend is very open with me so I doubt he'd hide having a chronic condition as I know plenty of his other issues which we talk about.  I legit think he just got by because they aren't really checking things.  If the system gets you an appointment, I don't think they are verifying your conditions. He's also not fat at all, nor his wife so it's not obesity.

Also, my parents were telling me that some people have been hanging out near vaccination sites at the end of the day and are sometimes able to get a shot from the leftover vials that need to be used.  I don't know how common that really is, but I can see that happening as hearing it from my parents wasn't the first time I've heard similar stories.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 22, 2021, 02:15:05 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 02:06:37 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 22, 2021, 02:00:02 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM

No motive, just curious, but how are all the less than 65's getting the shot?

My position for the Healthcare company I work for was classified '1A' as I'm in and out of hospitals and sensitive areas in those hospitals for my job. I received 'official' credentials classifying me as '1A'....went online to Missouri's Health department and registered. Within a week I had an appointment. First shot of Pfizer last week.....second one coming on 3/10.


But here's the kicker. I showed up to the local Fire Station where these shots were being administered with my credentials/paper work showing I was 1A.....they didn't aske to see a thing. I walked in.....signed my name.....they scheduled my second shot.....I walked over and got my shot......sat in a chair for 10 minutes and then left. I'm willing to be anyone could have walked in there and got a shot.

My friend noticed the same thing. She saw that the ones administering the shots didn't even look at her papers. Just that she had it and put it on the side in a pile with the others.

They didn't even keep my papers....much less ask to see them. I 'assume' since I received the email link (that I had to reply to within 12 hours) that they must have assumed I was 1A and legit because I was notified?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 02:17:17 PM

So obesity is an underlying condition?   

<Whistles.   And goes to check CT's policy, because my BMI is about the same as my age.>
   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 03:02:54 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 02:17:17 PM

So obesity is an underlying condition?   

<Whistles.   And goes to check CT's policy, because my BMI is about the same as my age.>
 

 :lol

If you can find a loophole, I say, go for it. What are they going to do?...

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 02:12:04 PM

Also, my parents were telling me that some people have been hanging out near vaccination sites at the end of the day and are sometimes able to get a shot from the leftover vials that need to be used.  I don't know how common that really is, but I can see that happening as hearing it from my parents wasn't the first time I've heard similar stories.

Now that is just interesting. That they feel so fearful they may not make it to get the vaccine in time and go to these lengths because they want it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 22, 2021, 03:15:03 PM

In my small town the State created a survey whereby you gave information about yourself including any health conditions. I have hypertension and am carrying a few extra pounds but wifey has asthma and immuno-compromised. We got our first shot (Moderna) a few weeks back and Wednesday we get our second shot. She is textbook where health things are concerned so I expect her to go through some stuff unless we've already had it like I posted earlier. I think our county health center looked at it and said 'she's high risk but let's vaccinate both of them' which would make sense to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 22, 2021, 06:03:44 PM

Well...I'm eligible for a vaccine now in both counties I work in as well as in the one I live in. Too bad there aren't any appointments.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 06:09:17 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 22, 2021, 06:03:44 PM

Well...I'm eligible for a vaccine now in both counties I work in as well as in the one I live in. Too bad there aren't any appointments.

Can you get in line though or schedule something further out? or is it all just check each day for an appointment?

I have not even looked into scheduling one for myself so I haven't seen how it works locally, but I hear you can make appointments but they just might be months out.  If anything, I'd say it's good to at least secure a date even if it's not anytime soon just so you can get locked in.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 23, 2021, 12:43:25 AM

interesting study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308596/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 23, 2021, 06:58:24 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 06:09:17 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 22, 2021, 06:03:44 PM

Well...I'm eligible for a vaccine now in both counties I work in as well as in the one I live in. Too bad there aren't any appointments.

Can you get in line though or schedule something further out? or is it all just check each day for an appointment?

I have not even looked into scheduling one for myself so I haven't seen how it works locally, but I hear you can make appointments but they just might be months out.  If anything, I'd say it's good to at least secure a date even if it's not anytime soon just so you can get locked in.

It's all appointments. I think they'll open up significantly in the coming week, the freeze really put a crowbar in the machinery

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 23, 2021, 08:24:13 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2021, 03:02:54 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 02:17:17 PM

So obesity is an underlying condition?   

<Whistles.   And goes to check CT's policy, because my BMI is about the same as my age.>
 

 :lol

If you can find a loophole, I say, go for it. What are they going to do?...

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 02:12:04 PM

Also, my parents were telling me that some people have been hanging out near vaccination sites at the end of the day and are sometimes able to get a shot from the leftover vials that need to be used.  I don't know how common that really is, but I can see that happening as hearing it from my parents wasn't the first time I've heard similar stories.

Now that is just interesting. That they feel so fearful they may not make it to get the vaccine in time and go to these lengths because they want it.

NOT NECESSARILY REFERRING TO ANYONE HERE (at least I don't think) but I get so much pleasure watching humans rationalize things.   I've heard a lot of people complaining about the distribution, and how a fair number of people have "jumped the line", but if you think about it....   the suspension of individual liberty and bodily autonomy is based on the idea that the vaccines are not about any one person, but about the collective.  So from that logic it really doesn't matter if someone jumps the line; it's more important that the vaccine gets delivered, as long as it goes to SOMEONE.  The quicker we get to "herd immunity", the quicker everyone benefits.   If we're concerned about individuals and their place in line, then doesn't it follow that we should be concerned about those that don't want a place in line?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 23, 2021, 08:29:31 AM

I agree Stadler, although the idea to do the most vulnerable first does make sense, however, just getting the vaccine into anyone is important and beneficial. While I may be question how my friend got his shots, I don't really fault him for getting them (or anyone else).  Even Fauci had stated that limiting the vaccine to certain people is slowing down the process because it takes time to figure out who's eligible instead of just giving the vaccine to anyone.  That's why NJ just stopped with doing only the elderly and opened it up to anyone with underlying conditions.  Just get the shots into the people who want them as soon as possible.  Also since the science is starting to show that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus, it's just as important to get a healthy person vaccinated vs. sickly in terms of slowing down the spread which then in return also helps the vulnerable people even if they haven't been vaccinated. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 23, 2021, 09:03:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 22, 2021, 02:12:04 PM

Also, my parents were telling me that some people have been hanging out near vaccination sites at the end of the day and are sometimes able to get a shot from the leftover vials that need to be used.  I don't know how common that really is, but I can see that happening as hearing it from my parents wasn't the first time I've heard similar stories.

and just read this:

Quote

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/amanda-kloots-covid19-vaccine-criticism-231541801.html

Quote

"I received so many DMs from people, saying ‘I did not know that you could go wait to see if people didn’t show up for appointments to get this vaccine. I did not know that they throw out vaccines at the end of the day if people don’t show up for their appointment. I did not know that you could get on a waiting list and get possibly called if somebody didn’t show up for an appointment. I didn’t know that this vaccine has a shelf life, that it would be thrown in the trash if it isn’t used," Kloots said. "So that awareness around this topic, I mean, it’s such a beautiful thing, and if my post had to get some shame in order to bring that awareness, I’m happy that that happened.”

Kloots said she also received messages from doctors, nurses and other healthcare workers confirming the stories about unused vaccines. So it surprised her that some people were up in arms.

"It just boggles my mind that anyone would rather see the vaccine go to waste than go into an arm," she said.

Bingo on the bold, we shouldn't hold it against others who get the shot even if they aren't vulnerable or part of the state's designated group.  Vaccinate someone or let it go to waste? Is it really that difficult to see the better answer here. Although it boggles my mind that people would skip their appointments....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 23, 2021, 09:05:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 23, 2021, 08:29:31 AM

I agree Stadler, although the idea to do the most vulnerable first does make sense, however, just getting the vaccine into anyone is important and beneficial. While I may be question how my friend got his shots, I don't really fault him for getting them (or anyone else).  Even Fauci had stated that limiting the vaccine to certain people is slowing down the process because it takes time to figure out who's eligible instead of just giving the vaccine to anyone.  That's why NJ just stopped with doing only the elderly and opened it up to anyone with underlying conditions.  Just get the shots into the people who want them as soon as possible.  Also since the science is starting to show that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus, it's just as important to get a healthy person vaccinated vs. sickly in terms of slowing down the spread which then in return also helps the vulnerable people even if they haven't been vaccinated.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Until the next Novel Virus comes along and we start this process all over again.

And now they're gonna Pool whatever's left of one vaccine and another to get enough of a dose to inject into someone whom wants it.

https://www.aol.com/pharmacists-pooling-covid-vaccines-could-233737892.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 23, 2021, 09:40:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 23, 2021, 08:29:31 AM

I agree Stadler, although the idea to do the most vulnerable first does make sense, however, just getting the vaccine into anyone is important and beneficial. While I may be question how my friend got his shots, I don't really fault him for getting them (or anyone else).  Even Fauci had stated that limiting the vaccine to certain people is slowing down the process because it takes time to figure out who's eligible instead of just giving the vaccine to anyone.  That's why NJ just stopped with doing only the elderly and opened it up to anyone with underlying conditions.  Just get the shots into the people who want them as soon as possible.  Also since the science is starting to show that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus, it's just as important to get a healthy person vaccinated vs. sickly in terms of slowing down the spread which then in return also helps the vulnerable people even if they haven't been vaccinated.

Actually, with that last piece, it almost makes more sense to vaccinate the healthy.  Look at me and my parents; my parents are both first in line in terms of the qualifications (though they haven't been able to get an appointment yet).   But they spend most of most of their days sitting in armchairs watching NCIS reruns.   Me, though, relatively healthy, I'm working.  I have a family.  I have kids.   I have more contact in a day with third parties than they do in a week.   My kid, even more compelling, since she's in college.  Between her school, her housemates, traveling home (frequently) and her work at home (she works for a restaurant) she sees more in a day that I see in a week, and my parents in probably a MONTH or more.  I would gladly give my shot to my parents, and I am on the Publix website three times a week to get them in line (they live in a different state) but we've got to pick our criteria (and in this way, I see one fault in delegating this to the states, since the standards can be very different; for example, my state has no provision for "underlying conditions").

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 23, 2021, 09:55:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 23, 2021, 09:40:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 23, 2021, 08:29:31 AM

I agree Stadler, although the idea to do the most vulnerable first does make sense, however, just getting the vaccine into anyone is important and beneficial. While I may be question how my friend got his shots, I don't really fault him for getting them (or anyone else).  Even Fauci had stated that limiting the vaccine to certain people is slowing down the process because it takes time to figure out who's eligible instead of just giving the vaccine to anyone.  That's why NJ just stopped with doing only the elderly and opened it up to anyone with underlying conditions.  Just get the shots into the people who want them as soon as possible.  Also since the science is starting to show that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus, it's just as important to get a healthy person vaccinated vs. sickly in terms of slowing down the spread which then in return also helps the vulnerable people even if they haven't been vaccinated.

Actually, with that last piece, it almost makes more sense to vaccinate the healthy.  Look at me and my parents; my parents are both first in line in terms of the qualifications (though they haven't been able to get an appointment yet).   But they spend most of most of their days sitting in armchairs watching NCIS reruns.   Me, though, relatively healthy, I'm working.  I have a family.  I have kids.   I have more contact in a day with third parties than they do in a week.   My kid, even more compelling, since she's in college.  Between her school, her housemates, traveling home (frequently) and her work at home (she works for a restaurant) she sees more in a day that I see in a week, and my parents in probably a MONTH or more.  I would gladly give my shot to my parents, and I am on the Publix website three times a week to get them in line (they live in a different state) but we've got to pick our criteria (and in this way, I see one fault in delegating this to the states, since the standards can be very different; for example, my state has no provision for "underlying conditions").

I have to admit that I have had the same thought. We have been doing most of the running around shopping for wife's parents. They live way out in the country and hardly see anyone. I thought it made more sense for us to get vaccinated before them so we could continue to help them. It's a moot point since they got their shots anyway but you're not alone in having that thought.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 23, 2021, 11:20:36 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on February 23, 2021, 09:55:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 23, 2021, 09:40:18 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on February 23, 2021, 08:29:31 AM

I agree Stadler, although the idea to do the most vulnerable first does make sense, however, just getting the vaccine into anyone is important and beneficial. While I may be question how my friend got his shots, I don't really fault him for getting them (or anyone else).  Even Fauci had stated that limiting the vaccine to certain people is slowing down the process because it takes time to figure out who's eligible instead of just giving the vaccine to anyone.  That's why NJ just stopped with doing only the elderly and opened it up to anyone with underlying conditions.  Just get the shots into the people who want them as soon as possible.  Also since the science is starting to show that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus, it's just as important to get a healthy person vaccinated vs. sickly in terms of slowing down the spread which then in return also helps the vulnerable people even if they haven't been vaccinated.

Actually, with that last piece, it almost makes more sense to vaccinate the healthy.  Look at me and my parents; my parents are both first in line in terms of the qualifications (though they haven't been able to get an appointment yet).   But they spend most of most of their days sitting in armchairs watching NCIS reruns.   Me, though, relatively healthy, I'm working.  I have a family.  I have kids.   I have more contact in a day with third parties than they do in a week.   My kid, even more compelling, since she's in college.  Between her school, her housemates, traveling home (frequently) and her work at home (she works for a restaurant) she sees more in a day that I see in a week, and my parents in probably a MONTH or more.  I would gladly give my shot to my parents, and I am on the Publix website three times a week to get them in line (they live in a different state) but we've got to pick our criteria (and in this way, I see one fault in delegating this to the states, since the standards can be very different; for example, my state has no provision for "underlying conditions").

I have to admit that I have had the same thought. We have been doing most of the running around shopping for wife's parents. They live way out in the country and hardly see anyone. I thought it made more sense for us to get vaccinated before them so we could continue to help them. It's a moot point since they got their shots anyway but you're not alone in having that thought.

This brings up discussion about those living in Cities, which are congested with people, and those that live in Rural areas, less congested with people. And the self-reliance each of those people have. Rural people tend to have more self-reliance, as they will fend for themselves. While city folk, tend to rely on others for basic needs. There is a difference in attitude from a city person to a rural/country person.

So with this in mind. The more likely you are going to be around people, the more likely you will catch the disease they may have, if it is contagious.

It is impossible to get rid of a virus completely, if we did, we wouldn't need to take vaccines when we go to say Africa, or the Jungle in the Amazon. Yet, those people are still alive and surviving, albeit some are barely struggling, and that isn't our fault per se. Well, the amazon forest being depleted is our fault.

Would our Native race have still survived a virus if we were left to our own devices, which would have been our natural remedies? What makes one feel they are obligated to help the other, when the other doesn't want that help, and wants to be left alone? What makes them become the savior in saving humanity?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 23, 2021, 12:09:17 PM

But smallpox, tho - it's a virus and it's been eradicated from the world.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 23, 2021, 08:04:47 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 23, 2021, 12:09:17 PM

But smallpox, tho - it's a virus and it's been eradicated from the world.

Quote

In addition, a natural pox virus might potentially evolve into a fatal illness, in which case samples of smallpox for comparison might be very useful when developing a vaccine.

https://www.wisegeek.com/is-there-still-smallpox-in-the-world.htm

That doesn't sound eradicated to me. It's still around, and is a concern for biological warfare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 24, 2021, 07:00:41 AM

Interesting article about what's being termed "COVID Zero", or eradicating COVID (https://news.yahoo.com/covid-zero-unattainable-acceptable-risk-130449070.html).   Short answer: not going to happen.

But as the article says, Israel, which is much further down the road of "herd immunity" seems to be honing in on a post-vaccine world rate of about 3.5 cases for every 100,000 requiring hospitalization.  Compared with flu - which, after the vaccine is wide-spread IS a viable comparison - we typically look at about 150 out of 100,000 hospitalized every season.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 24, 2021, 07:45:06 AM

Yea, pretty much every virologist says covid is going to be endemic so it's here to stay, but with the vaccines today and maybe adjustments for mutations in the future, we can be positioned so it's not really too dangerous anymore. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 24, 2021, 07:52:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM

No motive, just curious, but how are all the less than 65's getting the shot?  Connecticut announced today that 55 and over can start signing up on March 1, and 45 and older on March 22.  Are other states ahead of that schedule?

Anyone in those states need a roommate?   :) :)

My younger brother got his because he was spending time in a rehab hospital for a meniscus injury and blood infection.  Most of the patients there are elderly, so they all got their shots and the healthcare workers got theirs, and they had enough extra doses to give him his, even thought it wasn't yet "time" for it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 24, 2021, 09:37:53 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 24, 2021, 07:00:41 AM

Interesting article about what's being termed "COVID Zero", or eradicating COVID (https://news.yahoo.com/covid-zero-unattainable-acceptable-risk-130449070.html).   Short answer: not going to happen.

But as the article says, Israel, which is much further down the road of "herd immunity" seems to be honing in on a post-vaccine world rate of about 3.5 cases for every 100,000 requiring hospitalization.  Compared with flu - which, after the vaccine is wide-spread IS a viable comparison - we typically look at about 150 out of 100,000 hospitalized every season.

Quote

In coming months, COVID will probably recede, as a result of vaccinations and growing natural immunity. But it will not disappear.

What does this mean?....

Quote

And yet the seasonal flu does not bring life to a halt. It does not keep people from flying on airplanes, eating in restaurants, visiting their friends or going to school and work.

The vaccines will not produce “COVID zero.” But they are on pace — eventually, and perhaps even by summer — to produce something that looks a lot like normalcy. The extremely rare exceptions won’t change that, no matter how much attention they receive.

As Dr. Stefan Baral, a public health researcher and infectious disease expert, put it on Twitter: “Risk assessment? Absolutely! Risk mitigation? Absolutely! Risk management? Absolutely! Risk communication? Absolutely! Risk Elimination? Impossible.”

It's why Scientists and Doctors are starting to look at foods and our gut bacteria. Because, if viruses have been around since the beginning of time, and the Health Practices we follow today weren't around until the 1800's, how did those people survive?

Also, Europeans are known to have not been sanitary people, they were gross, and full of sicknesses because of that. It's how they brought diseases throughout the world. Places didn't have these diseases until the Europeans colonized the world.

What they did use was Natural Remedies, even the Greeks knew this and would use plants as remedies.

All the vaccines are there for is to manage it and get normalcy back. Whatever that normalcy is exactly, is up for debate?...and some don't want to go back and want a new normal.

So why fear it, when it's not going away. Just learn to manage it with whatever way you can. Be it through the Health Industry or through the use of Holistic Health Practices, and Food Nutrition and Diet.

Here's a good video on a Navajo Elder talking about Natives and Health and Disease.

Native Americans and Disease Pandemics of the Past (Navajo) (https://youtu.be/gEIDVEk4r4c)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on February 24, 2021, 10:19:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 24, 2021, 09:37:53 AM

Quote

In coming months, COVID will probably recede, as a result of vaccinations and growing natural immunity. But it will not disappear.

What does this mean?....

As more and more people become infected and survive the virus, those same people acquired temporary natural immunity since they have antibodies. The more people with antibodies, the less the virus can spread and cause illness.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 24, 2021, 09:37:53 AM

It's why Scientists and Doctors are starting to look at foods and our gut bacteria. Because, if viruses have been around since the beginning of time, and the Health Practices we follow today weren't around until the 1800's, how did those people survive?

Most people did not survive. Life expectancy back them was low, look at the link below. There is not data for the US for 1800, but life expectancy in 1860's was in the below 40.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-united-states-all-time/#:~:text=Over%20the%20past%20160%20years,to%2078.9%20years%20in%202020.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?tab=map&region=World

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on February 24, 2021, 11:02:43 AM

A few personal updates after my meeting with my boss today....

Our company is not returning to the office this year.  Last announcement was for July the earliest, now they are saying 2022.  Part of it is because the company is going to transition to permanantly work from home for many people and they are giving back office space, the other part is that even though the outlook is bright for things coming back to normal before the end of the year, there's still concerns for mutations so instead of prepping to go back, they are being safe and saying not this year.

Also, back when the pandemic started and there were strict lockdowns here, I had to get paperwork saying I'm a critical infrastructure worker in case I got pulled over for being on the roads or anything as I've been coming into work throughout all this.  Well, because of that, the company is looking to get our team vaccinated if we want to.  They will get the paperwork as an essential worker so I can get it sooner if I wanted it.  I said I do, so I may be getting my vaccine sooner than I expected although there is no timeline for that.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 24, 2021, 11:44:36 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 23, 2021, 08:04:47 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 23, 2021, 12:09:17 PM

But smallpox, tho - it's a virus and it's been eradicated from the world.

Quote

In addition, a natural pox virus might potentially evolve into a fatal illness, in which case samples of smallpox for comparison might be very useful when developing a vaccine.

https://www.wisegeek.com/is-there-still-smallpox-in-the-world.htm (https://www.wisegeek.com/is-there-still-smallpox-in-the-world.htm)

That doesn't sound eradicated to me. It's still around, and is a concern for biological warfare.

OK, well, that's nice but I didn't say "smallpox doesn't exist anywhere" I said it's been eradicated from the world.  There are no active cases anywhere.  You're deliberately misreading my entire point, though, which was not whether or not smallpox still exists in a fucking lab somewhere.  The point was viruses can indeed be eradicated.


From the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease (https://www.niaid.nih.gov/diseases-conditions/smallpox#:~:text=Currently%2C%20there%20is%20no%20evidence,%2C%20Georgia%2C%20and%20in%20Russia.)

Quote

Currently, there is no evidence of naturally occurring smallpox transmission anywhere in the world. Although a worldwide immunization program eradicated smallpox disease decades ago, small quantities of smallpox virus officially still exist in two research laboratories in Atlanta, Georgia, and in Russia.

Both of these facts are true:


Smallpox has been eradicated for decades through worldwide immunization.


Smallpox virus samples exist in labs <--That's not in dispute


The dispute was whether or not viruses can be eradicated.  It's been proven -conclusively, I might add- that they can.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 24, 2021, 02:53:29 PM

I think the word "eradicated" might have been misinterpreted with its use in the sentence "eradicated from the world".  To me that means completely gone, but when you put it in the context of "eradicated from the general population, but not completely gone" makes more sense.  But, if it were ever introduced back into the general population for whatever reason (god forbid), then "eradicated" becomes a term that perhaps wasn't fully realized.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 24, 2021, 03:20:47 PM

To me "Eradicated" means gone from the world.  The fact that it still exists in labs is besides the point. 


The initial argument that was being made was that "no virus can ever be completely wiped out" and my point was simply that THAT statement -that "no virus can ever be completely wiped out" is disproved by the fact that Smallpox has, in fact, been completely wiped out.  It only exists in labs, not in the wild.  i.e. Eradicated from the world.  There are no known cases of active transmission of Smallpox anywhere on the planet.  I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and posit that meets the criteria of being eradicated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 24, 2021, 03:22:13 PM

That said, I realize not everyone here is a native english speaker so some of the nuance is probably lost in translation sometimes. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on February 24, 2021, 03:26:09 PM

this has been a test of the emergency broadcast system                              this has been a test of the emergency broadcast system                              this has been a test of the emergency broadcast system

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 24, 2021, 11:30:26 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 24, 2021, 03:20:47 PM

To me "Eradicated" means gone from the world.  The fact that it still exists in labs is besides the point. 


The initial argument that was being made was that "no virus can ever be completely wiped out" and my point was simply that THAT statement -that "no virus can ever be completely wiped out" is disproved by the fact that Smallpox has, in fact, been completely wiped out.  It only exists in labs, not in the wild.  i.e. Eradicated from the world.  There are no known cases of active transmission of Smallpox anywhere on the planet.  I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and posit that meets the criteria of being eradicated.

I get what you mean by that, and yeah if you think of it like that, yes it is eradicated from human transmission, at the moment.

I'll admit I am skeptical of these type of things.

Are we so sure that these people went everywhere in the world, and "eradicated" it. Or are they just claiming just to say "yay we cured the world". When there is no evidence at all either for whether these people were already healthy or already knew of ways to deal with the symptoms and didn't have to worry about the disease because they were doing alright. we don't have that evidence because of the colonization and conquering that happened. There are no records kept for certain areas of the world, so we are not so sure if they had big pandemics or sicknesses of this volume and how they dealt with it. I mean, There are people whom don't even know about us Native people at all, and are still trying to understand us, think about that.


I am not saying I am Anti-Vax either. But I do have concerns. All I am saying is, I personally do not think there is enough that has me convinced to take it. It being mRNA and not anything that has been done before. And having to take it for school isn't a great argument, the public schools are all the poor or less fortunate sometimes have for schooling, and are therefore coerced into making their kids get vaccinated as the school requires it and is mandatory or else they can't attend said public school, because they can't afford a private or charter school, and that public school is all their only option for their childs school and learning. Unless, they take it upon themselves, but they can't because they are working a job to pay for housing...etc....And all that is set by the state. But then, some states are wanting Home School to get vaccinations. https://hslda.org/post/mandatory-covid-19-vaccination-for-homeschoolers-coming

Where is this line drawn?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 05:56:14 AM

Re Small Pox:  no known cases reported globally in 45 years.  I'd say that's some pretty good evidence.  What kind of evidence do YOU need - 7B people tested negative?  If your argument is that there could some isolated island in the south pacific that had a case/outbreak, or some tribe deep in the outback or heart of Africa... sure, let's go with that.  ::)

Re a line to draw: I dunno... 100M+ infected, and 2.5M dead in a year - and that's with all the precautions and shutdowns/lockdowns that have taken place.  How's that for a line?

And (well run) private schools also require immunizations.

Sometimes public health trumps personal choices/"freedoms"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 25, 2021, 07:02:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 05:56:14 AM

Sometimes public health trumps personal choices/"freedoms"

Quoted for emphasis

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 25, 2021, 08:51:26 AM

Update:

We got the second shot (Moderna) yesterday and I felt fine yesterday and we woke up this morning and WHOA NELLY!

Body aches, low grade fever, limbs that feel like they are 100lbs a piece - This is EXACTLY what we experienced in August 2019! I realize that I am not sick with the covids but oh my aching head.  :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 08:57:07 AM

Quote from: lonestar on February 25, 2021, 07:02:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 05:56:14 AM

Sometimes public health trumps personal choices/"freedoms"

Quoted for emphasis

Several of you keep saying that, and nominally it's true, but at least here in the States, it doesn't mean its done without scrutiny, without reservation, and without consideration.   We have too many examples to count of when that happened, and almost* all of them were done diligently, prudently, and adhering to the processes and procedures put in place by the Constitution, legislation, and the courts.    We don't just "do" because some critical mass of the population "feels" like it's a fair trade. 

There are a few standards, but the one for a fundamental right - which is what the right to the privacy of body is - is that there must be a compelling state interest, the infringement (the law) has to be narrowly tailored to fit the state interest, and it has to be the least restrictive means of achieving that state interest.  I'm sorry, don't shoot the messenger, but any one sick person is not a "compelling state interest".   Complete eradication of a virus is likely not a "compelling state interest", for two reasons: one not every virus can be eradicated, and two, we're one country out of 215 someodd countries, and 330 million out of 7.3 BILLION people.  "Herd immunity" may be; but can we achieve herd immunity without FORCING people to take a vaccine they don't want?   I'd like to see that argument, because I don't think so.

* I only say "almost" to be fair; perhaps there's an instance I'm not aware of where this wasn't done.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 09:14:57 AM

Not to mention the "narrowly tailored" and "least restrictive means" hurdles.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on February 25, 2021, 09:22:26 AM

I wish they woulda waited and only given the stimmies out to people once they got the shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 09:24:18 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 09:14:57 AM

Not to mention the "narrowly tailored" and "least restrictive means" hurdles.

100%; I only focused on the compelling state interest because for me that's the easiest, and if you can't pass that........

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 25, 2021, 10:01:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on February 25, 2021, 07:02:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 05:56:14 AM

Sometimes public health trumps personal choices/"freedoms"

Quoted for emphasis

Quote

At every point, opportunists latch onto existing fears and strive to invent new ones to feather their own nests. Thus, public-school teachers and administrators agree that the nation faces an “education crisis.” Police departments and temperance crusaders insist that the nation faces a generalized “drug crisis” or at times a specific drug crisis, such as “an epidemic of crack cocaine use.” Public-health interests foster fears of “epidemics” that in reality consist not of the spread of contagious pathogens but of the lack of personal control and self-responsibility, such as the “epidemic of obesity” or the “epidemic of juvenile homicides.” By means of this tactic, a host of personal peccadilloes has been medicalized and consigned to the “therapeutic state” (Nolan 1998, Szasz 2001, Higgs 1999).

https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=1510

Quote from: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 08:57:07 AM

Quote from: lonestar on February 25, 2021, 07:02:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 05:56:14 AM

Sometimes public health trumps personal choices/"freedoms"

Quoted for emphasis

Several of you keep saying that, and nominally it's true, but at least here in the States, it doesn't mean its done without scrutiny, without reservation, and without consideration.   We have too many examples to count of when that happened, and almost* all of them were done diligently, prudently, and adhering to the processes and procedures put in place by the Constitution, legislation, and the courts.    We don't just "do" because some critical mass of the population "feels" like it's a fair trade. 

There are a few standards, but the one for a fundamental right - which is what the right to the privacy of body is - is that there must be a compelling state interest, the infringement (the law) has to be narrowly tailored to fit the state interest, and it has to be the least restrictive means of achieving that state interest.  I'm sorry, don't shoot the messenger, but any one sick person is not a "compelling state interest".   Complete eradication of a virus is likely not a "compelling state interest", for two reasons: one not every virus can be eradicated, and two, we're one country out of 215 someodd countries, and 330 million out of 7.3 BILLION people.  "Herd immunity" may be; but can we achieve herd immunity without FORCING people to take a vaccine they don't want?   I'd like to see that argument, because I don't think so.

* I only say "almost" to be fair; perhaps there's an instance I'm not aware of where this wasn't done.

Exactly. Why is one entity the all knowing and regulator of health for the world?...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 10:57:37 AM

@ Bosk and Stads... (and this is not a shot, just me pointing out the differences in perspectives).  I can't help but wonder if your opinions and viewpoints on the matter would be the same if the three letters after your names were PhD, and not ESQ ( :biggrin: :lol).  Quite often (again, not a shot.. an observation) your stances are brought from a legal perspective.  Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all of society's perspectives, wants, and needs.

<awaits, 'yeah, but'>   :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 11:07:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 10:57:37 AM

<awaits, 'yeah, but'>   :corn

Well, I'm glad that you appear to recognize the flaws in your argument that justify a "yeah, but" (aka, a rebuttal).  But the soundness of an argument doesn't depend on what letters one has after his or her name.  Lawyers aren't the only ones making these arguments.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 12:22:33 PM

What Bosk said.

And of course, the legal is where the rubber meets the road.   It's the point at which we can DEMAND others do what we want them to do even if they don't agree.   Morals are want we WANT others to do, laws are what we can FORCE others to do.

One "if", one "and", and no "buts".   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 12:29:00 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 12:22:33 PM

What Bosk said.

And of course, the legal is where the rubber meets the road.   It's the point at which we can DEMAND others do what we want them to do even if they don't agree.   Morals are want we WANT others to do, laws are what we can FORCE others to do.

One "if", one "and", and no "buts".   :)

Says the two lawyers.  Really too bad we don't have any medical Drs here to offer that professional viewpoint.  I'm not saying I don't appreciate or value the legal perspective, just that - and it seems you two won't or can't 'get' it - there are other perspectives and considerations at play.  I mean, who uses the term "compelling state interest" in their dialog other than lawyers?   :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 12:48:59 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 12:29:00 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 12:22:33 PM

What Bosk said.

And of course, the legal is where the rubber meets the road.   It's the point at which we can DEMAND others do what we want them to do even if they don't agree.   Morals are want we WANT others to do, laws are what we can FORCE others to do.

One "if", one "and", and no "buts".   :)

Says the two lawyers.  Really too bad we don't have any medical Drs here to offer that professional viewpoint.  I'm not saying I don't appreciate or value the legal perspective, just that - and it seems you two won't or can't 'get' it - there are other perspectives and considerations at play.  I mean, who uses the term "compelling state interest" in their dialog other than lawyers?   :rollin

Jingle, hear what we're saying, or at least what I'm saying (Bosk doesn't need me to speak for him).  I FULLY understand there are competing perspectives.   You forget (or didn't know) I'm also an engineer by degree and have an MBA.  I get the concept of competing viewpoints and acknowledge them.   But there are two factors here to consider:  ONE, some of those "competing perspectives" are simply "opinion".   Maybe opinion shared by PhDs, but still opinion.   Someone, maybe you, said "sometimes public health trumps personal choices/"freedoms""; that's true, but when that happens, and here's number two, opinions go out the window.  At that point you have no choice but to refer to the law.   Once you get into "rights", it's a bigger envelope than just "my opinion".

I don't have to go very far to find someone that says:
"In my opinion, we shouldn't need a warrant to search someone.  If they didn't do anything wrong, they have nothing to worry about."
"In my opinion, we shouldn't allow any abortions at any time.  It's killing a human life."
"In my opinion, we shouldn't waste our time with trials.  The cops know who's guilty and who isn't."
"In my opinion, if you can't bother to read or pay your taxes, you shouldn't be able to vote."

Put more simply, we can have all the doctors in the world here, but unless and until there's a law, executive order, regulation, or court decision, it is not enough to force even one person to comply with their opinion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 02:16:22 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 25, 2021, 12:29:00 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 12:22:33 PM

What Bosk said.

And of course, the legal is where the rubber meets the road.   It's the point at which we can DEMAND others do what we want them to do even if they don't agree.   Morals are want we WANT others to do, laws are what we can FORCE others to do.

One "if", one "and", and no "buts".   :)

Says the two lawyers.  Really too bad we don't have any medical Drs here to offer that professional viewpoint. 

Well, I think you might be surprised to find that there isn't a single viewpoint from that crowd either.  I am really good friends with a few different types of "doctor."  I am VERY good friends with two of the M.D. persuasion, to the point that we talk probably at least once a week.  And a PhD that I talk to a lot less because he is on the other side of the country now, but is like a father to me.  I think you might be VERY surprised at their opinions on things that relate to this thread, and how they are not what the news might lead you to believe all doctors uniformly, lock-step believe.  I also interact somewhat regularly with a lot of public health folks.  And I can tell you that opinions on a lot of Covid-related issues are all over the map.  But I'm not really advocating for any particular position here--just advocating against the notion that there is one and only one "correct" answer" that can be arrived at by waiving the magic wand and using the "but public health!" incantation.  It's more complicated than that.

EDIT:  And, yes, Stadler, you can speak for me.  Unless we are talking about Mike Portnoy or Kiss, in which case you are on your own and are most likely wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 03:05:47 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 02:16:22 PM

Kiss

 :|


 :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 12:22:33 PM

What Bosk said.

And of course, the legal is where the rubber meets the road.   It's the point at which we can DEMAND others do what we want them to do even if they don't agree.   Morals are want we WANT others to do, laws are what we can FORCE others to do.

One "if", one "and", and no "buts".   :)

OK, but isn't part of the social contract of, you know, being a responsible citizen, include following certain rules that we all agree to?  Do you WANT to pay taxes?  I don't.  But I am coerced into paying them whether I like it or not.  There is no "opt out" option other than prison.  It's for the common good.  I definitely DID NOT AGREE to having my tax dollars used to drop bombs on brown people 7 thousand miles from where I live because a few of the radical ones flew planes into buildings.  But I was coerced into paying those taxes.  I didn't volunteer them.  They fucking take 'em.  Every week, without fail.  And they spend them on all kinds of shit that I am diametrically opposed to with every fiber of my being.  So, if you get to opt out of a mandatory vaccine because you don't "feel like it's for you" and you get infected with the virus and come in contact with my mother and infect her and she dies as a result, that's just tough titties?  I don't know, man.  I think when you want to live in society and take part in its systems and institutions you give up a certain amount of freedom and you are required to sometimes do things you don't like.  Taxes, laws, regulations, rules.  Vaccinations. 


To me, your right to do whatever you want ends at taking action (or failing to take action) that puts MY life or the lives of others in jeopardy. 


What gives YOU (and I don't mean any specific individual, just YOU as in NOT ME <-  :P  ) but what gives YOU the right to literally put the lives of the people around you in jeopardy by refusing to take a medicine that everyone else is taking to protect themselves and the people around them? Isn't that part of the social contract of living in a free, open society?  I see a lot of people typing a lot of words but I really don't see any solid arguments against taking the vaccine other than "mu freedums" or a bunch of legalistic mumbo jumbo.  It reminds me a LOT of what some of my lawyer friends tell me.  When you have a good case you argue the facts, when you have a shitty case you argue the law.  I see a lot of law arguing here but not a lot of facts being cited other than legalistic concepts. 


Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute.  No offense to anyone who's taking the position that they don't want to take the vaccine, that's your call.  But in my mind you're pretty much saying "fuck you" to everyone around you.  It's very selfish.  Again, without the vaccine you could literally end up killing people.  I am NOT ok with that.  And hanging your hat on a constitutional argument?  OK, if someone had a gun to your head right now and you could have that personal taken out with a clean shot from a rifle to save your life, but you'd have to hand the rifle to me to take that shot.  Are you gonna say "no way, man, he's a convicted felon, he can't touch that gun! I guess I'm dead!" Nobody would make that argument, but it's pretty much the argument being made here. 


So again, no offence and generally I support personal privacy and personal freedom, but on this?  If you're going to refuse to take the vaccine then you are volunteering to be part of the problem.  I think your access to certain public places should be restricted until or unless you take the vaccine and stop being a lethal risk to others.  Or until we achieve herd immunity at which time it won't matter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 25, 2021, 03:34:15 PM

I'm too tired to type out something as long as Barry did. Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 03:50:26 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 12:22:33 PM

What Bosk said.

And of course, the legal is where the rubber meets the road.   It's the point at which we can DEMAND others do what we want them to do even if they don't agree.   Morals are want we WANT others to do, laws are what we can FORCE others to do.

One "if", one "and", and no "buts".   :)

OK, but isn't part of the social contract of, you know, being a responsible citizen, include following certain rules that we all agree to?  Do you WANT to pay taxes?  I don't.  But I am coerced into paying them whether I like it or not.  There is no "opt out" option other than prison.  It's for the common good.  I definitely DID NOT AGREE to having my tax dollars used to drop bombs on brown people 7 thousand miles from where I live because a few of the radical ones flew planes into buildings.  But I was coerced into paying those taxes.  I didn't volunteer them.  They fucking take 'em.  Every week, without fail.  And they spend them on all kinds of shit that I am diametrically opposed to with every fiber of my being.  So, if you get to opt out of a mandatory vaccine because you don't "feel like it's for you" and you get infected with the virus and come in contact with my mother and infect her and she dies as a result, that's just tough titties?  I don't know, man.  I think when you want to live in society and take part in its systems and institutions you give up a certain amount of freedom and you are required to sometimes do things you don't like.  Taxes, laws, regulations, rules.  Vaccinations. 


To me, your right to do whatever you want ends at taking action (or failing to take action) that puts MY life or the lives of others in jeopardy. 


What gives YOU (and I don't mean any specific individual, just YOU as in NOT ME <-  :P  ) but what gives YOU the right to literally put the lives of the people around you in jeopardy by refusing to take a medicine that everyone else is taking to protect themselves and the people around them? Isn't that part of the social contract of living in a free, open society?  I see a lot of people typing a lot of words but I really don't see any solid arguments against taking the vaccine other than "mu freedums" or a bunch of legalistic mumbo jumbo.  It reminds me a LOT of what some of my lawyer friends tell me.  When you have a good case you argue the facts, when you have a shitty case you argue the law.  I see a lot of law arguing here but not a lot of facts being cited other than legalistic concepts. 


Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute.  No offense to anyone who's taking the position that they don't want to take the vaccine, that's your call.  But in my mind you're pretty much saying "fuck you" to everyone around you.  It's very selfish.  Again, without the vaccine you could literally end up killing people.  I am NOT ok with that.  And hanging your hat on a constitutional argument?  OK, if someone had a gun to your head right now and you could have that personal taken out with a clean shot from a rifle to save your life, but you'd have to hand the rifle to me to take that shot.  Are you gonna say "no way, man, he's a convicted felon, he can't touch that gun! I guess I'm dead!" Nobody would make that argument, but it's pretty much the argument being made here. 


So again, no offence and generally I support personal privacy and personal freedom, but on this?  If you're going to refuse to take the vaccine then you are volunteering to be part of the problem.  I think your access to certain public places should be restricted until or unless you take the vaccine and stop being a lethal risk to others.  Or until we achieve herd immunity at which time it won't matter.

Just so we're clear, Barry, I don't actually disagree with most of what you wrote, and in fact I like the first paragraph or so a LOT.  But you... I don't know, skipped a step I guess in going from your first paragraph to the second.   

I've been arguing the legal position here, and it seems as if I'm arguing against the vaccine, but let's be clear:  if the legislature passes a law that every American gets a vaccine or they forfeit their school, their driver's license and their social security, AND it passes muster with the Supreme Court, guess what?  I'm arguing that you better get the fucking vaccine or shut the hell up.

I've already been very upfront on the vaccine:  I'm ready to lie, cheat and push old ladies out of the way to get it.  It's not about that; it's about the lapse in rigor when it comes to vaccinations.  You said it yourself:  "laws, rules, regulations".    Do it the right way.  Part of the social contract is that it goes both ways; in exchange for our taxes, and our other sacrifices to absolute individual rights, we have a system, a protection, for when other people want to infringe our rights, and no one person gets to unilaterally claim their right supercedes anyone elses.   

You asked about why do "you"; I say the same.  Why do "you" get to abridge my rights unilaterally without following the protocols for EVERY OTHER TIME that competing rights over lap?   And I ask that not to provoke, but to note that our rights are COMPETING.  There is a balance, and there is an established mechanism for when those rights come in conflict.  That's what the law is for.  Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't, sometimes it harms us, sometimes it doesn't.  I appreciate your passion in this regard; I'm sure we all have an issue where a right is infringed that we hold passionately.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

This is where I somewhat disagree.  The arguments aren't strictly "legalistic."  They are couched in those terms because they recognize that, while people are literally dying, there are lots of other things that are killing people at similar rates that we don't take such drastic measures to stop.  And while saving lives is an incredibly important pursuant, those arguments attempt to address the fact that there are certain other, very dire concerns about very dire problems that are created by some Covid measures.  That's all.

For what it's worth, I mostly agree with you on a practical level for a lot of this stuff.  For most people, unless they have a VERY good reason, if they don't wear a mask, I have a hard time not judging them as irresponsible and not doing enough to care for and protect their neighbor.  Same with those who reject vaccination without a VERY good reason.  I have a hard time with that because, to me, the intrusion on liberties is minimal, and the public benefit is huge.  And most of the arguments against those things are, at best, ill informed and, at worst, selfish and demonstrative of a flagrant disregard for others.  But in reality, there can be a lot more to it in more cases than we often care to recognize.


EDIT:  *quickly scans Stadler's post to make sure there isn't some hidden MP/Kiss argument buried in there somewhere*  Yeah, and what Stadler said.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

I agree with a ton of what you're saying Barry BUT....the bolded is where I have questions/concerns

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html

As has been spoke about a ton in this thread.....most of those hospitalized and that have perished from Covid had an underlying issue. And health issue that for better or worse their lifestyle caused. Should we then start regulating what we can eat and drink because we all know that the majority of what we're eating and drinking is straight up poison. Should we ban smoking and all the other 'bad' stuff for us because we will get heart disease from it that will magnify any other virus or illness we get.

I'm all for the vaccine and think the fact it's been politicized to the point of rational people not wanting to take it just because is silly. But, prior to my last job I didn't get the flu vaccine either. It truly is up to the individual to decide. You can't start 'forcing' people to get vaccinated no matter the reason.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on February 25, 2021, 04:11:02 PM

I have a cousin and a second cousin who are both nurses, and through the family grapevine they have both pretty much said that doctors are "persuaded" to put down COVID as a cause of death if there is any doubt whatsoever, which is why I still find the numbers are about total deaths and whatnot not totally trustworthy.  Now, that doesn't mean I don't think COVID is a threat.  It is!  Unlike some I know who are now more open to going out to eat for example, I am still not comfortable with it, and I will be getting the vaccine as soon as I am able to (just waiting on word as to when!).  It just feels like the there is a bit of "putting your finger on the scale with no one is looking" going on, but hey, if the numbers being so high led to the success of Operation Warp Speed and the vaccines being available sooner than many had hoped, I will thank those who put their fingers on the scale.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on February 25, 2021, 04:15:26 PM

Honestly if someone tested positive for Covid and then died,  that's enough for me on the numbers, I don't think it matters all that much. Yeah maybe they would have died anyway but how could anyone ever know that for sure?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 05:34:20 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on February 25, 2021, 04:15:26 PM

Honestly if someone tested positive for Covid and then died,  that's enough for me on the numbers, I don't think it matters all that much. Yeah maybe they would have died anyway but how could anyone ever know that for sure?

If you have diabetes and heart disease and are severely overweight......ANY bug or virus could push you over the edge and to death.

If the talk is now to mandate the vaccine and make it ‘law’ for the good of everyone then for the good of everyone out diets and what we consume, smoke, drink should be as well.....right? Just playing devils advocate here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on February 25, 2021, 05:58:28 PM

a global pandemic doesn’t  seem like the same thing but I don’t know :shrug:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 25, 2021, 07:07:15 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 05:34:20 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on February 25, 2021, 04:15:26 PM

Honestly if someone tested positive for Covid and then died,  that's enough for me on the numbers, I don't think it matters all that much. Yeah maybe they would have died anyway but how could anyone ever know that for sure?

If you have diabetes and heart disease and are severely overweight......ANY bug or virus could push you over the edge and to death.

If the talk is now to mandate the vaccine and make it ‘law’ for the good of everyone then for the good of everyone out diets and what we consume, smoke, drink should be as well.....right? Just playing devils advocate here.

If you have a heart problem you're technically not supposed to be driving. But people do anyways because they don't really regulate if someone lies when they get their drivers licence. That's how it is in my State.


I just want to also say. I understand and do have sympathy for people that lost loved ones to this sickness. What I see and think is the numbers and data have been blown out of proportion, and isn't really as bad as claimed to be. It's good vaccines have been rolled out and people whom do want to can get one. The reality is, there are people who's religions may say stuff that the believers can not do and vaccines could be seen as one of those. Who is someone to determine One belief is detrimental to ones Health? It's the same with Abortion, in terms of belief.

And the reality that people die all the time and some are caused by ones owns actions. Even though they know said actions will eventually kill them. Daredevils constantly play with death. It's why those Spice and Tide Pod challenges were the stupidest things ever. Should we ban Facebook and Social Media cause it caused a lot of people to eat Tide Pods?....

Sorry if I do play devils advocate. But these things are realities that are how life is now. Not how one imagines it to be, it's what life physically is and the problems that are currently around people.

It's why if you really think about it nowz and we reflect on how Viruses are passed. Closing all the borders was the wisest thing to have done to stop the spread.

But then, you got our leaders making trips out of state or Country and thus taking a risk of infecting us...Tat is if we would've shut down the borders from any outside traveler. It's exactly what some Tribes did. Blocked all access from outsiders...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 25, 2021, 07:52:34 PM

That is false that if you have a heart condition that you can't drive. I have one and it's a fallacy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 25, 2021, 09:33:05 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 25, 2021, 07:52:34 PM

That is false that if you have a heart condition that you can't drive. I have one and it's a falicy.

Yeah, I've never heard that either; I've got heart disease in my family and I can't name one that couldn't drive because of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 26, 2021, 07:07:07 AM

Plenty of heart issues in my family as well.  Never heard that any of them shouldn't be driving (at least, not because of THAT).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 26, 2021, 08:02:55 AM

I don't think it was exactly that. It was a question that came up when I had to get a driver's license.

But, I found this...

"You are legally responsible for letting Roads and Maritime know if you have a long-term or permanent illness that might impair your ability to drive safely. If you have a crash and it’s found that your health was a contributing factor, it could invalidate your insurance, and you might be prosecuted for it."

https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/resources/can-you-drive-with-a-medical-condition/

And this...

"California Vehicle Code (CVC) §§12806 and 12809 authorize DMV to refuse to issue or renew a driver license (DL) to someone who cannot safely operate a motor vehicle due to reasons relating to physical or mental conditions."

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/driver-education-and-safety/medical-conditions-and-driving/evaluation-guidelines/

So, if it's really bad, in CA they don't have to issue you one. But I hope people realize they can't physically drive sue to their health for the sake of others...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 26, 2021, 08:49:16 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

I agree with a ton of what you're saying Barry BUT....the bolded is where I have questions/concerns

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html)

As has been spoke about a ton in this thread.....most of those hospitalized and that have perished from Covid had an underlying issue. And health issue that for better or worse their lifestyle caused. Should we then start regulating what we can eat and drink because we all know that the majority of what we're eating and drinking is straight up poison. Should we ban smoking and all the other 'bad' stuff for us because we will get heart disease from it that will magnify any other virus or illness we get.

I'm all for the vaccine and think the fact it's been politicized to the point of rational people not wanting to take it just because is silly. But, prior to my last job I didn't get the flu vaccine either. It truly is up to the individual to decide. You can't start 'forcing' people to get vaccinated no matter the reason.

Fine, forget I mentioned how many people per minute are dying.


Whataboutism at it's best good job

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 26, 2021, 08:55:59 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

I agree with a ton of what you're saying Barry BUT....the bolded is where I have questions/concerns

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html)

As has been spoke about a ton in this thread.....most of those hospitalized and that have perished from Covid had an underlying issue. And health issue that for better or worse their lifestyle caused. Should we then start regulating what we can eat and drink because we all know that the majority of what we're eating and drinking is straight up poison. Should we ban smoking and all the other 'bad' stuff for us because we will get heart disease from it that will magnify any other virus or illness we get.

I'm all for the vaccine and think the fact it's been politicized to the point of rational people not wanting to take it just because is silly. But, prior to my last job I didn't get the flu vaccine either. It truly is up to the individual to decide. You can't start 'forcing' people to get vaccinated no matter the reason.

I don't disagree, but there can put restrictions / consequences on individuals for said decisions ... in the name of public safety.  We do enough of that already today.  Building codes - don't want to put that electrical in properly, you don't get a pass to occupy the building.  Restaurants - don't want to keep running water or wear that hair net, you get a bolt on the door.  Transportation - don't want to maintain your fleet, don't operate the equipment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 26, 2021, 08:58:11 AM

Also to the people who are citing comorbidities as the cause of death, that's not how it works.


This is from a few months ago, but it pretty much eviscerates that argument with hard data and science
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/debunking-the-false-claim-that-covid-death-counts-are-inflated1/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 26, 2021, 09:02:17 AM

My mother is 76 and she's a cancer survivor.  Her immune system is weak because of cancer treatments she's had and other conditions like high blood pressure and anemia.


If she gets covid next week and dies the week after that from complications and amplifications of those comorbidities that resulted from covid infection, then it's covid that killed her, not high blood pressure.


Had she NOT been infected she'd still be alive because none of her problems were being exacerbated by, you know, existing.  They were exacerbated by the covid infection.  It makes sense then that covid-19 is listed as the cause of death, because without it she'd still be breathing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 26, 2021, 09:07:25 AM

If you need some unbiased readouts on that let me help you


Factcheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trump-baselessly-suggests-covid-19-deaths-inflated-for-profit/)

Politifact.org (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/05/blog-posting/no-cdc-isnt-inflating-coronavirus-statistics/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2021, 09:34:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 26, 2021, 08:55:59 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

I agree with a ton of what you're saying Barry BUT....the bolded is where I have questions/concerns

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html)

As has been spoke about a ton in this thread.....most of those hospitalized and that have perished from Covid had an underlying issue. And health issue that for better or worse their lifestyle caused. Should we then start regulating what we can eat and drink because we all know that the majority of what we're eating and drinking is straight up poison. Should we ban smoking and all the other 'bad' stuff for us because we will get heart disease from it that will magnify any other virus or illness we get.

I'm all for the vaccine and think the fact it's been politicized to the point of rational people not wanting to take it just because is silly. But, prior to my last job I didn't get the flu vaccine either. It truly is up to the individual to decide. You can't start 'forcing' people to get vaccinated no matter the reason.

I don't disagree, but there can put restrictions / consequences on individuals for said decisions ... in the name of public safety.  We do enough of that already today.  Building codes - don't want to put that electrical in properly, you don't get a pass to occupy the building.  Restaurants - don't want to keep running water or wear that hair net, you get a bolt on the door.  Transportation - don't want to maintain your fleet, don't operate the equipment.

None of those involve injecting things into the body.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to build that particular building.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to operate that particular restaurant.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to have a fleet of equipment.

You've poo-poo'ed the legal, but it is the crux of this discussion. Vaccines are not the same as the examples you cite.  I've used it in the past, but it's appropriate here:  substitute 'abortion' (another fundamental right that involves the privacy of the body) in, instead of 'wearing a hair net' and see if it still holds.   How about you don't get to live in this community unless and until you get an abortion?   You don't get to receive welfare or state-implemented healthcare unless and until you get an abortion?   Decisions and consequences, right?  Abortions are arguably in the public interest (https://journalistsresource.org/economics/abortion-crime-research-donohue-levitt/), so why not? 

This is not whataboutism.  Not even close.  It's precedent, and it's analogy.  Big difference.   And, it's not even taking a position per se, it's just saying there should be more to the analysis than just one person's opinion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 26, 2021, 11:55:19 AM

Quote from: Stadler on February 26, 2021, 09:34:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 26, 2021, 08:55:59 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

I agree with a ton of what you're saying Barry BUT....the bolded is where I have questions/concerns

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html)

As has been spoke about a ton in this thread.....most of those hospitalized and that have perished from Covid had an underlying issue. And health issue that for better or worse their lifestyle caused. Should we then start regulating what we can eat and drink because we all know that the majority of what we're eating and drinking is straight up poison. Should we ban smoking and all the other 'bad' stuff for us because we will get heart disease from it that will magnify any other virus or illness we get.

I'm all for the vaccine and think the fact it's been politicized to the point of rational people not wanting to take it just because is silly. But, prior to my last job I didn't get the flu vaccine either. It truly is up to the individual to decide. You can't start 'forcing' people to get vaccinated no matter the reason.

I don't disagree, but there can put restrictions / consequences on individuals for said decisions ... in the name of public safety.  We do enough of that already today.  Building codes - don't want to put that electrical in properly, you don't get a pass to occupy the building.  Restaurants - don't want to keep running water or wear that hair net, you get a bolt on the door.  Transportation - don't want to maintain your fleet, don't operate the equipment.

None of those involve injecting things into the body.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to build that particular building.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to operate that particular restaurant.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to have a fleet of equipment.

You've poo-poo'ed the legal, but it is the crux of this discussion. Vaccines are not the same as the examples you cite.  I've used it in the past, but it's appropriate here:  substitute 'abortion' (another fundamental right that involves the privacy of the body) in, instead of 'wearing a hair net' and see if it still holds.   How about you don't get to live in this community unless and until you get an abortion?   You don't get to receive welfare or state-implemented healthcare unless and until you get an abortion?   Decisions and consequences, right?  Abortions are arguably in the public interest (https://journalistsresource.org/economics/abortion-crime-research-donohue-levitt/), so why not? 

This is not whataboutism.  Not even close.  It's precedent, and it's analogy.  Big difference.   And, it's not even taking a position per se, it's just saying there should be more to the analysis than just one person's opinion.

Yeah, and that happened to a lot of people in our Native Reservations. People were forced to live off the rez if they didn't abide by our Sovereign Government Mandates. I was forced to get the vaccine, and told them myself, I'll accept the consequences If I say no. So I did, and now...It's "My Choice" to not get the vaccine. I find it really sly, how they're using words like that. It's your choice, yes, but you choose wrong and you are gone, and do not get to pass go and collect the free pizza, the bonus at work, or the stimulus like someone was suggesting.


Basically, it's Fears fighting each other. One Fears, Government control and regulation, and the other Fears, Death. It's obvious you can't have both Freedoms and Security.

But, then again, I myself see all that is happening in the world, the consequence we as Human Beings are experiencing because of our Freedoms and decisions that depleted the Trees (which is our oxygen), and many other things that harmed the Earth. Look at the mountain in the Andes that is a hollowed out shell of swiss cheese that could fall any minute.

If we don't destroy ourselves, The Earth will, and all this pre-planning to prevent death from a sickness will be moot. As the Earth begins it's destructive path...


This isn't Fear Mongering at all. This is a concern that is visible and reality to many people. It's why we are fighting these pipelines. It's why we are fighting for Bears Ears. It's why we fight for our ways, because our customs just aren't for show and to just do them. There is meaning behind everything we do, be it for the Earth, Mankind, The Animal, or for Rain. When there is no meaning, you are just going through the motions.

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 26, 2021, 08:55:59 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

I agree with a ton of what you're saying Barry BUT....the bolded is where I have questions/concerns

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html)

As has been spoke about a ton in this thread.....most of those hospitalized and that have perished from Covid had an underlying issue. And health issue that for better or worse their lifestyle caused. Should we then start regulating what we can eat and drink because we all know that the majority of what we're eating and drinking is straight up poison. Should we ban smoking and all the other 'bad' stuff for us because we will get heart disease from it that will magnify any other virus or illness we get.

I'm all for the vaccine and think the fact it's been politicized to the point of rational people not wanting to take it just because is silly. But, prior to my last job I didn't get the flu vaccine either. It truly is up to the individual to decide. You can't start 'forcing' people to get vaccinated no matter the reason.

I don't disagree, but there can put restrictions / consequences on individuals for said decisions ... in the name of public safety.  We do enough of that already today.  Building codes - don't want to put that electrical in properly, you don't get a pass to occupy the building.  Restaurants - don't want to keep running water or wear that hair net, you get a bolt on the door.  Transportation - don't want to maintain your fleet, don't operate the equipment.

This bolded "In the Name Of..." is what the Christians used to justify Slavery and their conquering. "In the Name of God" they are not civil people.

In the name of public safety, mosh pits are now banned. In the name of bootlegging and the artists financial well-being, recording shows is now banned. Violation of these rules will result in permanent bans from all venues, and future concerts. Consequences for decisions right...I brought this up because it's what they did for The Astonishing shows and people did not like that at all, and the way the ushers were forceful with the restrictions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 26, 2021, 12:09:56 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 26, 2021, 09:34:37 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on February 26, 2021, 08:55:59 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on February 25, 2021, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:58 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

[a bunch of stuff about social contract and taxes and stuff]

Yup.  All really great points.  I don't really dispute any of that.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 25, 2021, 03:22:03 PM

Legalistic arguments are a waste of space here, they're nothing but intellectual masterbation.  We're talking life and death here.  People are dying at a rate of 2 or 3 every fucking minute. 

I agree with a ton of what you're saying Barry BUT....the bolded is where I have questions/concerns

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9299725/Two-thirds-COVID-19-hospitalizations-preventable.html)

As has been spoke about a ton in this thread.....most of those hospitalized and that have perished from Covid had an underlying issue. And health issue that for better or worse their lifestyle caused. Should we then start regulating what we can eat and drink because we all know that the majority of what we're eating and drinking is straight up poison. Should we ban smoking and all the other 'bad' stuff for us because we will get heart disease from it that will magnify any other virus or illness we get.

I'm all for the vaccine and think the fact it's been politicized to the point of rational people not wanting to take it just because is silly. But, prior to my last job I didn't get the flu vaccine either. It truly is up to the individual to decide. You can't start 'forcing' people to get vaccinated no matter the reason.

I don't disagree, but there can put restrictions / consequences on individuals for said decisions ... in the name of public safety.  We do enough of that already today.  Building codes - don't want to put that electrical in properly, you don't get a pass to occupy the building.  Restaurants - don't want to keep running water or wear that hair net, you get a bolt on the door.  Transportation - don't want to maintain your fleet, don't operate the equipment.

None of those involve injecting things into the body.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to build that particular building.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to operate that particular restaurant.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to have a fleet of equipment.

You've poo-poo'ed the legal, but it is the crux of this discussion. Vaccines are not the same as the examples you cite.  I've used it in the past, but it's appropriate here:  substitute 'abortion' (another fundamental right that involves the privacy of the body) in, instead of 'wearing a hair net' and see if it still holds.   How about you don't get to live in this community unless and until you get an abortion?   You don't get to receive welfare or state-implemented healthcare unless and until you get an abortion?   Decisions and consequences, right?  Abortions are arguably in the public interest (https://journalistsresource.org/economics/abortion-crime-research-donohue-levitt/), so why not? 

This is not whataboutism.  Not even close.  It's precedent, and it's analogy.  Big difference.   And, it's not even taking a position per se, it's just saying there should be more to the analysis than just one person's opinion.

And no one is saying you should be forced to take a vaccine you don't want to take. I am 100% with you on that.  Your body, your decision.


However...as I mentioned above, when you are a member of a society you are obligated to follow the rules and if rules are established that restrict access to certain public spaces for "unvaccinated" people, I believe society has every right to protect itself by imposing certain limitations on your movements. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 26, 2021, 12:14:43 PM

Quote from: Stadler on February 26, 2021, 09:34:37 AM

None of those involve injecting things into the body.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to build that particular building.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to operate that particular restaurant.  There are no (Constitutional) rights to have a fleet of equipment.

You've poo-poo'ed the legal, but it is the crux of this discussion. Vaccines are not the same as the examples you cite.  I've used it in the past, but it's appropriate here:  substitute 'abortion' (another fundamental right that involves the privacy of the body) in, instead of 'wearing a hair net' and see if it still holds.   How about you don't get to live in this community unless and until you get an abortion?   You don't get to receive welfare or state-implemented healthcare unless and until you get an abortion?   Decisions and consequences, right?  Abortions are arguably in the public interest (https://journalistsresource.org/economics/abortion-crime-research-donohue-levitt/), so why not? 

This is not whataboutism.  Not even close.  It's precedent, and it's analogy.  Big difference.   And, it's not even taking a position per se, it's just saying there should be more to the analysis than just one person's opinion.

Inasmuch that you want to invalidate my examples because they have nothing to do with one's constitutional rights over their own body, I too shall invalidate your example, as abortion is not a public health issue.   :biggrin:  Also, the article you cited is about LEGALIZED abortions ... don't mischaracterize your own citations.  "Abortions are arguably in the public interest"  ::) is not what that article is presenting.

Guess we both suck at trying to draw appropriate parallels today.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 26, 2021, 01:16:31 PM

You all suck.  Just like politics. :lol :-* :-* :-*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 26, 2021, 02:09:32 PM

Got my appointment for Monday. So fucking relieved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 26, 2021, 02:12:11 PM

They moved my dad up to this Saturday.  I'm hoping to get the call as well.  I'm still waiting until April 10th for my first shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 26, 2021, 02:18:35 PM

What category are you Joe? 1C?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on February 26, 2021, 02:35:05 PM

1B.  Damn state sucks and are behind in NH

My heart condition puts me in 1B.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 26, 2021, 02:53:47 PM

Quote from: lonestar on February 26, 2021, 02:09:32 PM

Got my appointment for Monday. So fucking relieved.

:happydance:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 26, 2021, 03:00:23 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on February 26, 2021, 02:35:05 PM

1B.  Damn state sucks and are behind in NH

My heart condition puts me in 1B.

Ah, gotcha. I actually bypassed the state and county websites and went directly through Walgreens on a friend's suggestion yesterday and got an appointment within a day, after a few weeks of pointless searching through the gub'mint.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 26, 2021, 03:08:07 PM

RJ, are you having one of the 2-stage shots, or the single?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 26, 2021, 05:40:41 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 26, 2021, 03:08:07 PM

RJ, are you having one of the 2-stage shots, or the single?

It's a two stage, and based on four weeks between appointments, I'd say it's the Moderna. I was talking with my mom earlier, and she says Sac county is still at 1A. Is that true?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on February 26, 2021, 10:53:37 PM

Yeah.  I'm not even thinking seriously about it yet, because it won't be my turn for awhile.  I'm hoping they can speed things up with Pfizer being about to be stored and shipped more normally now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 26, 2021, 11:57:54 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on February 26, 2021, 10:53:37 PM

Yeah.  I'm not even thinking seriously about it yet, because it won't be my turn for awhile.  I'm hoping they can speed things up with Pfizer being about to be stored and shipped more normally now.

Yeah, between that and J&J getting approved, it'll soon be more a people management thing then a supply chain thing I'd gather

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on February 27, 2021, 05:44:14 AM

AZ was just approved up here.  That'll improve our supply, but the distribution (mostly here in Ontario) is an absolute shit-show.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 27, 2021, 09:56:39 AM

I have been telling people to not wait on the Govt rollout but to do two things:

1) Go to your County Health Center and see if they have a way of getting on a waiting list. Do this in multiple counties close you.
2) Call your local Walgreen's or CVS
3) Get on as many waiting lists as you can (don't overdo it) and if you get called, let the others know so they can go onto the next person signed up

They informed me that I was in the 1B category yesterday and starting March 15th I would be eligible but I informed them earlier in the week that I already got the shot.

I think Missouri is doing better with the rollout but Gmiller may have a differing opinion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on February 27, 2021, 09:59:23 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on February 27, 2021, 09:56:39 AM

I have been telling people to not wait on the Govt rollout but to do two things:

1) Go to your County Health Center and see if they have a way of getting on a waiting list. Do this in multiple counties close you.
2) Call your local Walgreen's or CVS
3) Get on as many waiting lists as you can (don't overdo it) and if you get called, let the others know so they can go onto the next person signed up

They informed me that I was in the 1B category yesterday and starting March 15th I would be eligible but I informed them earlier in the week that I already got the shot.

I think Missouri is doing better with the rollout but Gmiller may have a differing opinion.

Also, the one I've noticed is that you got to check them early in the day, everyday. I got my appointment at 5am, they were gone by 9. Today on a whim I checked the California MyTurn site at 7:30 and there were still 8 appt left for today. I guarantee if I checked now, they'd be gone. Set your alarms folks!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on February 27, 2021, 08:32:15 PM

Florida's open up at 7:00 am; I've waited until filled four times and every time I was done by between 8:00 and 8:30 am.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Tick on March 01, 2021, 08:21:55 AM

One week into Covid. Not feeling any relief at all. This is beyond brutal folks. Get those shots.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 01, 2021, 08:28:41 AM

Quote from: Tick on March 01, 2021, 08:21:55 AM

One week into Covid. Not feeling any relief at all. This is beyond brutal folks. Get those shots.

Hot damn pal!!  Hope you recover as well as other DTFrs - Gary, Paul, and Ruslan.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 01, 2021, 09:12:51 AM

Quote from: Tick on March 01, 2021, 08:21:55 AM

One week into Covid. Not feeling any relief at all. This is beyond brutal folks. Get those shots.

Damn dude! Get better!

BTW - what are your symptoms?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 01, 2021, 09:31:49 AM

Quote from: Tick on March 01, 2021, 08:21:55 AM

One week into Covid. Not feeling any relief at all. This is beyond brutal folks. Get those shots.

Sorry to hear that Rich. I had 2-3 days of rough symptoms but all in all it was about a week of feeling 'off'. I hope you turn the corner soon  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 01, 2021, 09:41:32 AM

After weeks of trying to land an appointment, finally got one for March 17th

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 10:45:46 AM

Damn Rich, hope you get better soon bud.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 01, 2021, 12:59:32 PM

Good luck with that, Tick.  Let us know how you're doing.


When my son got it he was sick for about a week but he didn't get his taste and smell back for almost 3 months. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 07:24:32 PM

Round one in the arm, microchip and all. No adverse effects so far other than an irresistible urge to tell everyone I got vaccinated.


It'll be like the new vegan...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 01, 2021, 07:35:43 PM

Quote from: Tick on March 01, 2021, 08:21:55 AM

One week into Covid. Not feeling any relief at all. This is beyond brutal folks. Get those shots.

Tick WTF? Hopefully you feel better man.

Quote from: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 07:24:32 PM

Round one in the arm

You mean when you walked in with the rest of the 65 year olds, they didn't even card you?  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 07:51:18 PM

Dick  :lol

Funny thing, I got the shot through walgreens, but my insurance is Kaiser, who's been notoriously lagging in this process. When I was in line at walgreens, I got my notification from Kaiser to schedule. I'm guessing it's going to open up like a motherfucker from here on out, especially with J&J hitting the mix.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 01, 2021, 07:54:22 PM

And you have your 2nd appointment?



My family gets our 2nd shot tomorrow. I can't wait. My wife has already gotten hers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 08:49:43 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 01, 2021, 07:54:22 PM

And you have your 2nd appointment?



My family gets our 2nd shot tomorrow. I can't wait. My wife has already gotten hers.

Yep, 2nd appt is on the 29th. It's more than the suggested 2 weeks for pfizer, the pharmacist said that's because of current supplies.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 01, 2021, 08:56:29 PM

Isn't this such a mind fuck?

You wait and wait for your vaccination....and then you have to wait another damn month for the 2nd shot.

And at this point, we're early. Gonna be a long time before things are back to "normal" still.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 09:03:49 PM

Yup, we're very early, normal is far off. Although I'm perfectly happy if traffic stays the way it is now, one good side of this bullshit. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 02, 2021, 05:34:28 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 07:24:32 PM

Round one in the arm, microchip and all. No adverse effects so far other than an irresistible urge to tell everyone I got vaccinated.


It'll be like the new vegan...

What's the improvement on your cell reception like?  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 02, 2021, 07:06:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 07:24:32 PM

Round one in the arm, microchip and all. No adverse effects so far other than an irresistible urge to tell everyone I got vaccinated.


It'll be like the new vegan...

Next thing you'll know, you'll like club music.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 02, 2021, 07:17:39 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 02, 2021, 07:06:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 01, 2021, 07:24:32 PM

Round one in the arm, microchip and all. No adverse effects so far other than an irresistible urge to tell everyone I got vaccinated.


It'll be like the new vegan...

Next thing you'll know, you'll like club music.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo.........


Seriously though, other than a sore Charley horse like arm, all is good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 02, 2021, 07:52:42 AM

It's the second shot that throws most for a loop.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 09:58:30 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 02, 2021, 07:52:42 AM

It's the second shot that throws most for a loop.

Honestly, not that I'm 'worried' about my second shot next week but I'm really hoping I don't have major side effects. I'm wondering how already having Covid will affect whatever side effects that may happen?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 02, 2021, 10:15:05 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

People get covid more than once. Antibodies don’t appear to last terribly long.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2021, 10:15:32 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 09:58:30 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 02, 2021, 07:52:42 AM

It's the second shot that throws most for a loop.

Honestly, not that I'm 'worried' about my second shot next week but I'm really hoping I don't have major side effects. I'm wondering how already having Covid will affect whatever side effects that may happen?

I was wondering that too.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

It may or may not be neccesary.  I don't think anyone actually knows how well a natural infection will benefit you long term and if it's better or worse at protection than a vaccine so it's a safer bet to just get the vaccine if it's available to you for longer term protection.  That's also assuming you know you've been infected which is not the case for everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:35:00 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

That makes sense.  Good precautionary measures.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 02, 2021, 10:40:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

But you can still spread it can you not? My understanding is that the vaccine only keeps you from getting sick. People have tested positive after receiving the vaccine. It happened in my wife's family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 02, 2021, 10:41:29 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 02, 2021, 10:40:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

But you can still spread it can you not? My understanding is that the vaccine only keeps you from getting sick. People have tested positive after receiving the vaccine. It happened in my wife's family.

Info from Israel seems to indicate that being vaccinated does appear to limit the virus' ability to spread and mutate. It's obviously not 100% but there does seem to be a big impact on that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 02, 2021, 10:42:58 AM

Yeah, exactly.  From what I understand, it does not behave like a lot of other viruses in that there are a significant enough number of confirmed cases of people getting it more than once that the vaccination is strongly encouraged even for those who have had it and recovered. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 02, 2021, 10:43:44 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 02, 2021, 10:41:29 AM

Info from Israel seems to indicate that being vaccinated does appear to limit the virus' ability to spread and mutate. It's obviously not 100% but there does seem to be a big impact on that.

Oh that's good then.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:44:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 02, 2021, 10:40:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

But you can still spread it can you not? My understanding is that the vaccine only keeps you from getting sick. People have tested positive after receiving the vaccine. It happened in my wife's family.

There have been studies coming out that the vaccine is cutting those rates of spreading down quite a bit. That not only are they helping not contracting it....but if you do get it....it's limiting the chance that you can spread it.

I don't know Tim.....I did go back and forth about even getting vaccinated. Bottom line was it just made more sense to do it than not. If anything, I get to be part of the massive lawsuit against the government and Pfizer in 20 years  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 02, 2021, 10:46:45 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 02, 2021, 10:41:29 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 02, 2021, 10:40:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

But you can still spread it can you not? My understanding is that the vaccine only keeps you from getting sick. People have tested positive after receiving the vaccine. It happened in my wife's family.

Info from Israel seems to indicate that being vaccinated does appear to limit the virus' ability to spread and mutate. It's obviously not 100% but there does seem to be a big impact on that.

Yeah, I shared an article here a couple weeks ago with some data saying that it seems you are less likely to spread the virus after vaccination, but it's not a proven fact yet just what they are starting to see data to suggest. (I have no seen anything about spread from people after natural infection, it may also be the same but I don't know).  Also, getting infected after vaccination is totally possible and will definitely happen to many people.  The difference is in illness.  If you are vaccinated, you are very unlikely to actually get sick and almost 0% chance so far of needing to go to the hospital or dying. Another key thing to note, the vaccine takes a few weeks after injection to really meet it's potential.  A lot of people still get sick after vaccine because they got infected before the vaccine had a chance to do it's thing.  I have not heard of any of these cases being serious infections that require hospitalization though.  I could be wrong, I just haven't read anything about that being that case.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 02, 2021, 12:45:25 PM

Last month, Lowdz got the virus right around the same time he got the 1st shot of the vaccine (can't remember if it was a couple days before or after), and was hospitalized for a few days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 02, 2021, 12:51:01 PM

My nephew just got diagnosed with Covid-19.  He goes to Lehigh and they were doing all classes remotely until this January when they kind of made him go back to in person classes even though he didn't want to go.  I'm kind of pissed off at my brother for making him go.  The school said it was still a choice to do remote learning, but my brother who thinks of EVERYTHING in terms of "how much does it cost" just couldn't deal with the fact that he paid tuition for a school that might as well be Ivy League so that his kid could sit at home and get his classes via a computer monitor.  I mean I get it, you paid for the full college experience, but you also just put your son's health at great risk over some fucking money? 


My brother is a bit of a Coronavirus "truther" or something  :\   He thinks the whole thing is way overblown, which is really strange because his wife is a nurse and she was fucking LIVID that my brother literally forced my nephew to go back to school even though he really didn't want to go back until he could get vaccinated.  My brother's response? Told him to "man up."  I love my kid brother but he can be a real fucking twit sometimes.  >:(   And now he actually just said to me on the phone, "how could anyone have predicted this would happen?"  :yeahright   Oh, I don't know, by having a fucking pulse maybe?  :censored

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 02, 2021, 02:40:34 PM

Hopefully your nephew doesn't suffer from the effects too badly.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 02, 2021, 12:51:01 PM

My brother is a bit of a Coronavirus "truther" or something  :\   He thinks the whole thing is way overblown, which is really strange because his wife is a nurse and she was fucking LIVID that my brother literally forced my nephew to go back to school even though he really didn't want to go back until he could get vaccinated.  My brother's response? Told him to "man up."

So the wife and the kid didn't want to go back, but the father "made" him do it? Pretty sure that wouldn't fly in my house.





On a good note, we just got home from getting our 2nd shot!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 02, 2021, 02:54:52 PM

Yeah, that's what happened.  His wife who has been a nurse for 30+ years had no say in the matter.   Less than a week after he was forced to go back, he was diagnosed with Covid.


So far he says he's had a constant headache, no smell or taste and a dry cough.  I think he's going to be fine, he's 19.  He'll bounce right back, but regardless of how this all turns out my mother is really more pissed off at my brother than I've ever seen her.  Their relationship was already on thin ice, this is going to make for an interesting Thanksgiving this year that's for sure  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 02, 2021, 04:15:23 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:44:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 02, 2021, 10:40:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

But you can still spread it can you not? My understanding is that the vaccine only keeps you from getting sick. People have tested positive after receiving the vaccine. It happened in my wife's family.

There have been studies coming out that the vaccine is cutting those rates of spreading down quite a bit. That not only are they helping not contracting it....but if you do get it....it's limiting the chance that you can spread it.

I don't know Tim.....I did go back and forth about even getting vaccinated. Bottom line was it just made more sense to do it than not. If anything, I get to be part of the massive lawsuit against the government and Pfizer in 20 years  :lol

It'll just be an ad on TV like the one for Johnson and Johnsons Talcum Powder settlement.  :lol

But your also forgetting. We can't sue them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 03, 2021, 05:11:23 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 02, 2021, 04:15:23 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:44:18 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 02, 2021, 10:40:13 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 02, 2021, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 02, 2021, 10:10:37 AM

If you've already had Covid, then you have the antibodies.  Why is a vaccine even necessary?

Like others have said, there's no telling how long the natural antibodies last? For me, I'm in and out of hospitals so much with my job that it was a no brainer for me to get it. I don't want to unknowingly spread this thing any more than I may have already.

But you can still spread it can you not? My understanding is that the vaccine only keeps you from getting sick. People have tested positive after receiving the vaccine. It happened in my wife's family.

There have been studies coming out that the vaccine is cutting those rates of spreading down quite a bit. That not only are they helping not contracting it....but if you do get it....it's limiting the chance that you can spread it.

I don't know Tim.....I did go back and forth about even getting vaccinated. Bottom line was it just made more sense to do it than not. If anything, I get to be part of the massive lawsuit against the government and Pfizer in 20 years  :lol

It'll just be an ad on TV like the one for Johnson and Johnsons Talcum Powder settlement.  :lol

But your also forgetting. We can't sue them.

"If you used Round-up, you may be entitled to a cash settlement!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 10:58:59 AM

Just got my first shot. It's quite a rush. I suppose I'll probably crash later on in the day, but for now I've got a tasty buzz working.

While it took them too long to get to me, numerous conditions putting me in the 1B group and all, FEMA is running a pretty good operation considering the task they've been given. When I got through the gate at the mass vaccination site I put on Promised Land, and by the time Someone Else came on I was halfway back to work. During that time they probably shot up 500-750 people, and that was only for the first dose side. I've heard reports of 4-5 hour wait times, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Guy who shot me up was Big Red 1, and he was thrilled to be there. Said it's the first time he's actually felt like he's helping out his country, after numerous deployments overseas. Found that interesting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 03, 2021, 11:01:37 AM

We all feel good today after getting the second shot yesterday. My 18 y/o is feeling pretty tired today but other than that..all good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 03, 2021, 11:16:19 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 03, 2021, 11:01:37 AM

We all feel good today after getting the second shot yesterday. My 18 y/o is feeling pretty tired today but other than that..all good.

YOU SURVIVED!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 11:54:20 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 10:58:59 AM

Just got my first shot. It's quite a rush. I suppose I'll probably crash later on in the day, but for now I've got a tasty buzz working.

If you don't mind saying, which one did you get?

Quote from: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 10:58:59 AM

While it took them too long to get to me, numerous conditions putting me in the 1B group and all, FEMA is running a pretty good operation considering the task they've been given. When I got through the gate at the mass vaccination site I put on Promised Land, and by the time Someone Else came on I was halfway back to work. During that time they probably shot up 500-750 people, and that was only for the first dose side. I've heard reports of 4-5 hour wait times, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Yeah, I think it largely depends on the site.  My father in law got his at a pharmacy, and had to wait in line over 3 hours.  Contrast that with the one at our state fairgrounds (which is a FEMA site, if I am not mistaken), where they have basically taken over the entire site and have TONS of cars filing through in about the type of timeframe you describe.  There are certainly varying degrees of efficiency.  But every site, big, small, or in between, plays a role in getting this stuff out there.  And the Merck/J&J partnership announced yesterday is HUGELY encouraging to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 03, 2021, 12:00:45 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 11:54:20 AM

And the Merck/J&J partnership announced yesterday is HUGELY encouraging to me.

 :tup yup, that is the type of news I like to see.  Competing companies joining forces for the greater good.

So I follow a PSU forum as well (mostly lurk there to follow the sports) and there's a covid vaccine thread that is very informational.  One poster shares daily updates with the numbers.  I wanted to share one of their posts here.

Quote

1.7M shots yesterday so total up to 78.63M with the 7 day rolling average at 1.9M. 76.8% of shots administered is the national average, 15.6% of population with 1+ dose (note this is percent of population that has been given 1 or 2 doses, so total percent that have been pricked by a needle), 7.9% with double dose. So far, 51.8 million have received at least one dose. At least 26.2 million people have completed the two-dose vaccination regimen.

Doses delivered is 102.38 M compared to yesterday 96.43M. 5.95M doses delivered so far this week. Previous week totals for doses delivered is 21.2M, 5.1M, 9.96M and , 9.4M.

56,890 positives reported yesterday compared to 73,768 week over week. 7-day rolling average is starting to drop again and is at 66,307

Fatality was 1989 compared to 1439 yesterday and 2435 week over week, 7-day rolling fatality at 1932.

For Hospitalizations, Total hospitalizations in USA with Covid is 46,388down from yesterday 46,738, compared to 55,058 week over week.

Disappointed that the vaccines are stuck at 1.7M for two days in a row even though plenty of vaccines for states to administer. We need to be at 2.5M per day every day. Another note is lowest single day drop in hospitals in a while, although the other day was a pretty big drop so wonder if that is just a small reporting to situation, we will see this week.

https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/threads/usa-covid-19-vaccination-updates.289944/ (https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/threads/usa-covid-19-vaccination-updates.289944/)

I find this daily information really useful in terms of weeding out the opinions.  I believe this poster gets the numbers from Bloomberg.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 12:22:26 PM

Good stuff!  :tup  Overall, things are definitely progressing.  But it's frustrating that the media is...well, not doing a very good job.  I mean, those numbers are indisputable.  And I have heard first hand from two doctors I am buddies with at Kaiser about how well supplied Kaiser has been with the vaccines, and how they have the man power to have been getting them out at a pretty good clip.  And there is the FEMA site I mentioned above that is cranking out some thousands per day, from the look of it.  But what does our local news choose to run as their lead story last night?  An anecdotal story about a woman who was turned away by Sutter for her scheduled second vaccination appointment because Sutter has apparently not been given enough, and how this may point to a larger "vaccine shortage."  :facepalm:  The story really missed the point of what is going on on a large scale out in the trenches.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 12:38:08 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 11:54:20 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 10:58:59 AM

Just got my first shot. It's quite a rush. I suppose I'll probably crash later on in the day, but for now I've got a tasty buzz working.

If you don't mind saying, which one did you get?

NO! It's a secret!  :lol

Pfizer. I'm not sure if it really makes much of a difference, honestly. I'd have taken either, and when I got the email it was supposed to be the Moderna vaccine. Whether it's a good or miserable experience seems to be a total crapshoot, just like the disease itself. As a rule vaccines don't really bother me, and others, like Adami, get walloped by them. I'm optimistic, but we'll see how it goes.

Quote

Yeah, I think it largely depends on the site.  My father in law got his at a pharmacy, and had to wait in line over 3 hours.  Contrast that with the one at our state fairgrounds (which is a FEMA site, if I am not mistaken), where they have basically taken over the entire site and have TONS of cars filing through in about the type of timeframe you describe.  There are certainly varying degrees of efficiency.  But every site, big, small, or in between, plays a role in getting this stuff out there.  And the Merck/J&J partnership announced yesterday is HUGELY encouraging to me.

Down here it just seems to be kind of a luck of the draw thing, unfortunately. The ice storm set us back, and getting caught back up from that created some long lines at the FEMA site. What's bothered me is that it's hard to tell if the right people are getting vaccinated, and when it happens. A coworker got hers weeks ago simply because her mom's nursing home had some laying around. I signed up on the waiting list two months ago, and didn't hear a single thing until I got an email this morning. Signed up and headed out ten minutes later, and was stuck a half hour after that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 03, 2021, 12:41:18 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 12:22:26 PM

Good stuff!  :tup  Overall, things are definitely progressing.  But it's frustrating that the media is...well, not doing a very good job.  I mean, those numbers are indisputable.  And I have heard first hand from two doctors I am buddies with at Kaiser about how well supplied Kaiser has been with the vaccines, and how they have the man power to have been getting them out at a pretty good clip.  And there is the FEMA site I mentioned above that is cranking out some thousands per day, from the look of it.  But what does our local news choose to run as their lead story last night?  An anecdotal story about a woman who was turned away by Sutter for her scheduled second vaccination appointment because Sutter has apparently not been given enough, and how this may point to a larger "vaccine shortage."  :facepalm:  The story really missed the point of what is going on on a large scale out in the trenches.

Also the media was reporting rises in cases the last week, which the numbers show, however, they don't actually read into the numbers or consider the 7 day rolling averages.  Due to storms all over the country, a lot of reporting was not up to date a couple weeks ago and once they got all the numbers accounted for last week, it made it all look like things were getting worse and that's what the media focused on.  However, the rolling averages are still going down and not a word on that, even the CDC didn't consider the delay in reporting as a reason for a small spike in the numebrs last week.   :facepalm: 

One thing to consider is hospitalization numbers do no have the same issues with reporting that cases and deaths do as hospitals are open 24/7 and report their numbers daily without delays... those numbers show a consistent downward trend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 03, 2021, 01:01:17 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 12:22:26 PM

Good stuff!  :tup  Overall, things are definitely progressing.  But it's frustrating that the media is...well, not doing a very good job.  I mean, those numbers are indisputable.  And I have heard first hand from two doctors I am buddies with at Kaiser about how well supplied Kaiser has been with the vaccines, and how they have the man power to have been getting them out at a pretty good clip.  And there is the FEMA site I mentioned above that is cranking out some thousands per day, from the look of it.  But what does our local news choose to run as their lead story last night?  An anecdotal story about a woman who was turned away by Sutter for her scheduled second vaccination appointment because Sutter has apparently not been given enough, and how this may point to a larger "vaccine shortage."  :facepalm:  The story really missed the point of what is going on on a large scale out in the trenches.

I think there's a thread for this:  "Things you NEVER saw coming" or something like that.  ;) :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 01:04:16 PM

:lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 01:17:05 PM

The media is like any other capitalistic enterprise, they need to sell advertising.  In order to sell advertising they need to generate buzz.  Nothing generates buzz like controversy so they search for it in every nook and cranny of society and when they find some small little bullshit story like the one you mentioned, bosk1, they put huge chyrons blasting sensational headlines like "LADY WAITS 2 HOURS FOR VACCINE SIGNALLING MASSIVE SHORTAGES AHEAD!!!!!" but the stories are all vaporware.  There's really no there, there.  This is really the kind of thing that FEMA was envisioned to address and they're doing a pretty good job of getting vaccines into arms. 


BUT THAT LADY HAD TO WAIT 2 WHOLE HOURS IN LINE!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!  :\


I am so sick of the media.  ALL of the media, whether I agree with their politics or not.  They don't report news anymore, they amplify controversy.  Intentionally.  Because that's what gets eyeballs looking at their stuff and the more eyeballs looking at their stuff the more they can charge for advertising.  It's a twisted ecosystem because it rewards sensationalism while literally punishing outlets that just deliver straight news.  And those are getting fewer and further between. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:35:35 PM

While you're not wrong, dismissing all media like that is problematic, too. It's the exact same as seeing bad behavior from one group of people and then eventually saying "I hate all of them, they all act that way." It's easy to give in to the easy belief that 'all' of a group is bad but that simply isn't true and I think it's very important to remember this. There IS news out there. Real news. It's not poofed up and gone away like a fart in a whirlwind, however scarce it might appear to be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 03, 2021, 01:42:19 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 01:17:05 PM

I am so sick of the media.  ALL of the media, whether I agree with their politics or not.  They don't report news anymore, they amplify controversy.  Intentionally.  Because that's what gets eyeballs looking at their stuff and the more eyeballs looking at their stuff the more they can charge for advertising.  It's a twisted ecosystem because it rewards sensationalism while literally punishing outlets that just deliver straight news.  And those are getting fewer and further between.

100%

Mike, you're not wrong, but it's creeping, and creeping fast.  It's like when you spill your soda and you see the edge of the pop getting closer and closer to your keyboard, and you know you can't stop it..........

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:44:32 PM

I definitely understand. It's a real problem and there are not enough good journalists, and they're not getting the recognition they deserve. Similarly, bad journalists get ahead because a lot of people unwittingly share bad reporting because they don't know what good reporting and journalism actually is or even if what they are parroting is real or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 03, 2021, 01:57:22 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:44:32 PM

I definitely understand. It's a real problem and there are not enough good journalists, and they're not getting the recognition they deserve. Similarly, bad journalists get ahead because a lot of people unwittingly share bad reporting because they don't know what good reporting and journalism actually is or even if what they are parroting is real or not.

That's the issue, and it's a big trust issue. People don't trust what they are reading or watching is true. People, also, just don't know how to look for these things that journalists use to bring attention to their story. They use specific words (a Thesaurus is a writers friend), and certain phrases, or certain word choices and sentence structure to draw you into their story. Some stories are not meant to be as fact and meant as an opinion and should not be treated as fact, yet people treat those stories as actual fact, when it is just one persons opinion. The rise in Articles and Opinion pieces are rising more with Journalists not knowing how to write and what the difference is between an opinion piece and an article that states the facts. Oh yeah, and Tone, Tone is a big one with the Major News Networks, why else do they talk the way they do, and how they constantly change tones constantly from a Sad sob story to a happy uplifting story, all after the scary story....

Bart's People (https://youtu.be/S77FNeQimbs)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 03, 2021, 02:22:32 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:44:32 PM

I definitely understand. It's a real problem and there are not enough good journalists, and they're not getting the recognition they deserve. Similarly, bad journalists get ahead because a lot of people unwittingly share bad reporting because they don't know what good reporting and journalism actually is or even if what they are parroting is real or not.

Journalism and the way things are reported are a complete 180 from when our parents and grandparents received news. They in large part, received the news. Not opinion or commentary....but just the 'facts' and that was that.

There is a miniscule amount of actual reporting the news going on these days. Every article, blog, video, report....etc etc is an opinion or commentary with an agenda.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 03, 2021, 02:31:12 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 03, 2021, 02:22:32 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:44:32 PM

I definitely understand. It's a real problem and there are not enough good journalists, and they're not getting the recognition they deserve. Similarly, bad journalists get ahead because a lot of people unwittingly share bad reporting because they don't know what good reporting and journalism actually is or even if what they are parroting is real or not.

Journalism and the way things are reported are a complete 180 from when our parents and grandparents received news. They in large part, received the news. Not opinion or commentary....but just the 'facts' and that was that.

There is a miniscule amount of actual reporting the news going on these days. Every article, blog, video, report....etc etc is an opinion or commentary with an agenda.

And I fucking HATE it.  It's insidious, because the opinion becomes the standard; rather than me being able to hold a different point of view, grounded in facts, something we all discuss civilly, I'm now "CONTRARIAN to what that guy said on CNN or Fox", and it becomes an act of rebellion of sorts, making the argument that much harder to overcome.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 02:33:02 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:35:35 PM

While you're not wrong, dismissing all media like that is problematic, too. It's the exact same as seeing bad behavior from one group of people and then eventually saying "I hate all of them, they all act that way." It's easy to give in to the easy belief that 'all' of a group is bad but that simply isn't true and I think it's very important to remember this. There IS news out there. Real news. It's not poofed up and gone away like a fart in a whirlwind, however scarce it might appear to be.

Well, I suppose it's a good thing I'm not dismissing all media, I'm just sick and tired of the predominant sensationalist strain that seems to permeate just about all strata of so-called "news media" these days.


I still find CNN to be generally fair and not too sensationalist and I get most of my news from there but they've been guilty of clickbait headlines more and more frequently lately.  This became a really big problem during the period beginning in 2015 and ending about a month ago, and I had hoped when the regime in Washington changed that this tendency for sensationalism would get dialed back a notch or two but I don't see a whole lot of evidence of that.


Just curious but where is this "Real news" you speak of, other than CNN who get most of their stuff from Reuters or AP, who deal mostly in straight news.  Bloomberg, NPR, BBC, TIME, ABC, NBC, CBS all mostly straight news, but I still see more and more sensationalist bullshit on their websites and I think it's probably the whole online ecosystem that tends to perpetuate this kind of thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot.  I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 03, 2021, 02:55:55 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot.  I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

There's definitely the possibility of extreme allergic reactions.  The King's Queen had some issues too and also my Aunt did.  However, unless this is totally unique, she should recover and be totally fine soon, not that it makes her current pain and situation better, but the reality is these side effects are better than getting/spreading the virus. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 03:10:33 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot. I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Uh, but is it?  There are more than 50 million people now vaccinated in the united states all doing just fine, so it's OK to be nervous about it, I get that, but after doing trials with 10's of thousands of people followed by 10's of millions of doses administered with only a handful of bad reactions reported, it's not really a crap shoot at all.  NOT getting a vaccine?  THAT's the crap shoot.   You have no way of knowing how the virus will impact you but way, way, way, way more people who get the virus are dying than people who get the vaccine.  You've got it backwards, friend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 03:23:01 PM

Moreover, distrusting it because you distrust the MSM doesn't make any sense. I wouldn't get the thing because Rachel Maddow said I should. If Rachel airs hour after hour after hour of respectable scientists, doctors, epidemiologists, and vaccine recipients telling me it's safe, I will trust that. Moreover, it's not just us. I've got my own misgivings about the FDA, but in a situation like this, the various health authorities of just about every nation on Earth has signed off on these vaccinations, and quite frankly, I trust some of those more than our own.

And in your case, Trump himself got the vaccine. If it were going to kill us, maim us, or implant tracking chips in us, wouldn't he have been in the know and opted out?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 03, 2021, 03:38:16 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 03:23:01 PM

And in your case, Trump himself got the vaccine. If it were going to kill us, maim us, or implant tracking chips in us, wouldn't he have been in the know and opted out?

This is honestly the only reason why I wasn't bothered by all the politicians getting the vaccine.  I think it sets an example that it isn't partisan and that the people with power in this country aren't worried about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 03, 2021, 03:58:42 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 03:10:33 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot. I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Uh, but is it?  There are more than 50 million people now vaccinated in the united states all doing just fine, so it's OK to be nervous about it, I get that, but after doing trials with 10's of thousands of people followed by 10's of millions of doses administered with only a handful of bad reactions reported, it's not really a crap shoot at all.  NOT getting a vaccine?  THAT's the crap shoot.   You have no way of knowing how the virus will impact you but way, way, way, way more people who get the virus are dying than people who get the vaccine.  You've got it backwards, friend.

And I will add that the science behind the vaccine has been around for over 10 years. IT IS NOT A CRAPSHOOT! It's not hard to do a little research.

https://covidvaccine.mo.gov/facts/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 03, 2021, 03:59:43 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 03:10:33 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot. I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Uh, but is it?  There are more than 50 million people now vaccinated in the united states all doing just fine, so it's OK to be nervous about it, I get that, but after doing trials with 10's of thousands of people followed by 10's of millions of doses administered with only a handful of bad reactions reported, it's not really a crap shoot at all.  NOT getting a vaccine?  THAT's the crap shoot.   You have no way of knowing how the virus will impact you but way, way, way, way more people who get the virus are dying than people who get the vaccine.  You've got it backwards, friend.

The Science says, we'll be fine if we're under a certain age group. Unless you have an underlying condition. So why is it that so many people have underlying conditions to be this fearful of dying from this disease? What can be done to prevent that? There are things that can be done that we all could do so we won't have these conditions that make us fearful of dying from this virus, without taking the vaccine. We've been told this many times. The only reason we have to take this vaccine is because we didn't listen to what the Science says about what causes those Underlying Conditions that many of us young people are diagnosed with. According to Science, we should not be this unhealthy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 04:12:09 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 02:33:02 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:35:35 PM

While you're not wrong, dismissing all media like that is problematic, too. It's the exact same as seeing bad behavior from one group of people and then eventually saying "I hate all of them, they all act that way." It's easy to give in to the easy belief that 'all' of a group is bad but that simply isn't true and I think it's very important to remember this. There IS news out there. Real news. It's not poofed up and gone away like a fart in a whirlwind, however scarce it might appear to be.

Well, I suppose it's a good thing I'm not dismissing all media, I'm just sick and tired of the predominant sensationalist strain that seems to permeate just about all strata of so-called "news media" these days.

I was responding to this:

"I am so sick of the media.  ALL of the media, whether I agree with their politics or not.  They don't report news anymore, they amplify controversy."

that's all

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 03, 2021, 04:15:30 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 04:12:09 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 02:33:02 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 03, 2021, 01:35:35 PM

While you're not wrong, dismissing all media like that is problematic, too. It's the exact same as seeing bad behavior from one group of people and then eventually saying "I hate all of them, they all act that way." It's easy to give in to the easy belief that 'all' of a group is bad but that simply isn't true and I think it's very important to remember this. There IS news out there. Real news. It's not poofed up and gone away like a fart in a whirlwind, however scarce it might appear to be.

Well, I suppose it's a good thing I'm not dismissing all media, I'm just sick and tired of the predominant sensationalist strain that seems to permeate just about all strata of so-called "news media" these days.

I was responding to this:

"I am so sick of the media.  ALL of the media, whether I agree with their politics or not.  They don't report news anymore, they amplify controversy."

that's all

There's a reason why Crowder and Tim Pool have high views on Youtube. And this is a result of the bolded.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 04:35:22 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 03, 2021, 03:59:43 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 03:10:33 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot. I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Uh, but is it?  There are more than 50 million people now vaccinated in the united states all doing just fine, so it's OK to be nervous about it, I get that, but after doing trials with 10's of thousands of people followed by 10's of millions of doses administered with only a handful of bad reactions reported, it's not really a crap shoot at all.  NOT getting a vaccine?  THAT's the crap shoot.   You have no way of knowing how the virus will impact you but way, way, way, way more people who get the virus are dying than people who get the vaccine.  You've got it backwards, friend.

The Science says, we'll be fine if we're under a certain age group. Unless you have an underlying condition. So why is it that so many people have underlying conditions to be this fearful of dying from this disease? What can be done to prevent that? There are things that can be done that we all could do so we won't have these conditions that make us fearful of dying from this virus, without taking the vaccine. We've been told this many times. The only reason we have to take this vaccine is because we didn't listen to what the Science says about what causes those Underlying Conditions that many of us young people are diagnosed with. According to Science, we should not be this unhealthy.

First and foremost we're a nation of fat fucks. That's the common underlying condition, and we're not likely to change that. Ever.

However, science doesn't know enough to be able to say that people of a certain age group with no underlying conditions will be fine. In fact, I'll go ahead and call that bullshit right now. Maynard is a pretty healthy guy, as far as I can tell. He's at an age and in such condition that Covid should have been terrified of him, and it absolutely massacred him. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to see Tool live again. The damage this thing does to the lungs is both hardcore and largely not understood. There is a sizeable number of people who fit into the long hauler category, and often times these are the people that should have been able to shake this thing off like a mild cold. As I understand it, the people with mild cases are often the ones that are still fucked up months later. Suffice it to say, there doesn't seem to be nearly enough understanding about this disease to be making statements that include "should be fine."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 03, 2021, 05:00:03 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 04:35:22 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 03, 2021, 03:59:43 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 03:10:33 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot. I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Uh, but is it?  There are more than 50 million people now vaccinated in the united states all doing just fine, so it's OK to be nervous about it, I get that, but after doing trials with 10's of thousands of people followed by 10's of millions of doses administered with only a handful of bad reactions reported, it's not really a crap shoot at all.  NOT getting a vaccine?  THAT's the crap shoot.   You have no way of knowing how the virus will impact you but way, way, way, way more people who get the virus are dying than people who get the vaccine.  You've got it backwards, friend.

The Science says, we'll be fine if we're under a certain age group. Unless you have an underlying condition. So why is it that so many people have underlying conditions to be this fearful of dying from this disease? What can be done to prevent that? There are things that can be done that we all could do so we won't have these conditions that make us fearful of dying from this virus, without taking the vaccine. We've been told this many times. The only reason we have to take this vaccine is because we didn't listen to what the Science says about what causes those Underlying Conditions that many of us young people are diagnosed with. According to Science, we should not be this unhealthy.

First and foremost we're a nation of fat fucks. That's the common underlying condition, and we're not likely to change that. Ever.

However, science doesn't know enough to be able to say that people of a certain age group with no underlying conditions will be fine. In fact, I'll go ahead and call that bullshit right now. Maynard is a pretty healthy guy, as far as I can tell. He's at an age and in such condition that Covid should have been terrified of him, and it absolutely massacred him. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to see Tool live again. The damage this thing does to the lungs is both hardcore and largely not understood. There is a sizeable number of people who fit into the long hauler category, and often times these are the people that should have been able to shake this thing off like a mild cold. As I understand it, the people with mild cases are often the ones that are still fucked up months later. Suffice it to say, there doesn't seem to be nearly enough understanding about this disease to be making statements that include "should be fine."

But that's exactly what people are saying about the people getting these bad side effects of the Vaccine.

And was there a way we could've looked at those people whom have caught a virus that wasn't flu, or was said to be a stronger flu, and felt the same symptoms that Covid gives, during the December 2019 month to when Covid was known?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 03, 2021, 05:50:43 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 03, 2021, 05:00:03 PM

But that's exactly what people are saying about the people getting these bad side effects of the Vaccine.

That's not really true either.  The number of people who get BAD cases of Covid is a relatively small number.  You aren't quite right that anyone without an underlying condition WILL be fine.  But you also aren't that far off, because the vast, vast majority of people who are healthy and do not have underlying conditions HAVE largely turned out to be fine.  But there is still a small number who have not. 

For vaccine side effects, the relative numbers are even smaller.  I don't have the data at my fingertips, but it is a tiny, tiny number.  But I'm not really sure what overall point you are arguing either, so...  :dunno:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 03, 2021, 05:53:07 PM

My parents, both of whom will be 74 this spring, got the Pfizer vaccine last month and both were mostly fine. My mom felt blah for a day or so after the second shot, but was fine after that, and my dad just rolled along like nothing had happened.  Yay for that! :coolio

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 12:18:13 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on March 03, 2021, 05:53:07 PM

My parents, both of whom will be 74 this spring, got the Pfizer vaccine last month and both were mostly fine. My mom felt blah for a day or so after the second shot, but was fine after that, and my dad just rolled along like nothing had happened.  Yay for that! :coolio

My parents are in their late seventies, mom had pfizer, dad had moderna, and other than sore arms neither had any level of reaction to either dose. My mom said none of their friends have had adverse reactions, the only ones we've heard of were from younger people. My niece, whose 28, a firefighter and in better shape than 99.9% of the population, got really sick from both doses of the pfizer. Maybe vaccine reactions are reversed of what the actual disease is, and all the youngsters are gonna get fucked up over it. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I work with a handful of people who had the virus. A few of them died. At one point, more than half the people in my office were either quarantining or actually had it. I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it. I don't have any preexisting conditions, no allergies, getting sick is a rare thing for me, and I believe it all plays a part.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 04, 2021, 06:03:25 AM

A FEW of your coworkers DIED??

And you're hesitant about getting the vaccine?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 04, 2021, 07:04:47 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I work with a handful of people who had the virus. A few of them died. At one point, more than half the people in my office were either quarantining or actually had it. I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it. I don't have any preexisting conditions, no allergies, getting sick is a rare thing for me, and I believe it all plays a part.

This was my attitude about the flu until I got it one time and went septic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 04, 2021, 07:14:13 AM

Unless someone has a specific and personal medical situation where he/she's been told that vaccines might be hurtful, I don't understand all the skepticism about vaccines. It seems that people forgot they exista since decades and decades, and act like they're a brand new thing.

Do you all realize that literally NO ONE in this thread or EVERYONE they know has died of polio because of a vaccine?

"But it's not vaccines per se, it's this one! it came too fast!"

No, it didn't. Coronavirus is not a new thing. It appeared already in 2002-3, see the SARS pandemic. Studies started already back then and this vaccine came out on the heels of decades of research on that previous incident.

"But... big pharma! Bill Gates!"

Yeah, whatever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 04, 2021, 08:35:56 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2021, 07:04:47 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I work with a handful of people who had the virus. A few of them died. At one point, more than half the people in my office were either quarantining or actually had it. I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it. I don't have any preexisting conditions, no allergies, getting sick is a rare thing for me, and I believe it all plays a part.

This was my attitude about the flu until I got it one time and went septic.

Exactly. Prior to Covid I had supreme confidence in my immune System. Rarely if ever sick and if I did fall under the weather it was over in a jiffy. In fact, I credit it for the reason I was able to get ‘over’ Covid so quickly. But, Covid doesn’t care if you have a rock star immune system.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:46:11 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 04, 2021, 08:35:56 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2021, 07:04:47 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I work with a handful of people who had the virus. A few of them died. At one point, more than half the people in my office were either quarantining or actually had it. I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it. I don't have any preexisting conditions, no allergies, getting sick is a rare thing for me, and I believe it all plays a part.

This was my attitude about the flu until I got it one time and went septic.

Exactly. Prior to Covid I had supreme condition my immune Stanton. Rarely if ever sick and if I did fall under the weather it was over in a jiffy. In fact, I credit it for the reason I was able to get ‘over’ Covid so quickly. But, Covid doesn’t care if you have a rock star immune system.

Exactly. You can be a tremendously well read person, but if someone hands you a book you haven't read, you won't know what it's about, and will fail a test on it. It's a novel virus. It's a first time read for all our immune systems.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 04, 2021, 09:11:24 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I work with a handful of people who had the virus. A few of them died. At one point, more than half the people in my office were either quarantining or actually had it. I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it. I don't have any preexisting conditions, no allergies, getting sick is a rare thing for me, and I believe it all plays a part.

I'll be damned. Just the other day I was wondering what ever happened to you.

You one of those Lauricidin people? I've got a friend who swears by it, but truth be told they seem to be sick more often than me (and I'm immunosuppressed!).

Out of curiosity, why are you extremely hesitant about it? While you and I have very different ideas about things, I haven't known you to be conspiratorial.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:21:26 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 04, 2021, 07:14:13 AM

Unless someone has a specific and personal medical situation where he/she's been told that vaccines might be hurtful, I don't understand all the skepticism about vaccines. It seems that people forgot they exista since decades and decades, and act like they're a brand new thing.

Do you all realize that literally NO ONE in this thread or EVERYONE they know has died of polio because of a vaccine?

"But it's not vaccines per se, it's this one! it came too fast!"

No, it didn't. Coronavirus is not a new thing. It appeared already in 2002-3, see the SARS pandemic. Studies started already back then and this vaccine came out on the heels of decades of research on that previous incident.

"But... big pharma! Bill Gates!"

Yeah, whatever.

Natural Remedies and Holistic treatments have existed longer than vaccines, but no one cares about these.

But also, the only reason we locked down was because the hospitals were getting overwhelmed and couldn't handle any more people getting sick. It was just too much and people were dying because they couldn't get treatment. People have died because they prioritized Covid patients and those that needed to go to appointments for Cancer and other health issues were put on the burner. Basically, these peoples lives are more valuable than yours right now, even though you may die if not seen or checked soon.

And also, add in the fear that you can't be there for your loved one in the hospital, so many people just died at home. And since this Fear was instilled when they didn't allow visitors, peoples fear heightened up so they will do anything to not go to the hospital and not get sick and not die alone.

This is how this FEAR has caused a mass shift of conscious and awareness of death that wasn't as present as before. It took this for people to actually recognizethe reality of Death.


But I came to post this article...

Quote

The study by the World Obesity Federation examined almost 100 countries and found that 2.2 million of 2.5 million deaths occurred in countries with high levels of obesity. Overall, death rates were found to be 10 times higher in countries where more than half the population was overweight.

It found that not a single country with low levels of obesity had a coronavirus death rate higher than 10 per 100,000 population. No country with death rates above 100 per 100,000 had less than 50 per cent of its population overweight

Advertisement
Obesity has already been found to increase the risk of death from Covid-19 by around 50 per cent, as well as increasing the risk of severe disease, and the World Health Organisation said the report should act as a "wake-up call" for governments to tackle their nations' obesity problems.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/03/uks-covid-death-toll-fuelled-obesity-epidemic-say-experts/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 09:27:08 AM

There's just so much to unpack in that post (2 above).  It's not even worth it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:33:20 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 09:27:08 AM

There's just so much to unpack in that post (2 above).  It's not even worth it.

I'm amazed you won't take the time too. See this is the thing. People have different opinions on things and views based on their own life experiences. And just because you won't get a reaction from the virus or vaccine doesn't mean someone else won't. They have concerns about their OWN health and how it will affect it. I respect that and why I am not telling anyone not to get the vaccine. If someone feels and believes what they are currently doing is helping, what gives me the right to tell them it's not and to take this instead as it worked for me.

I know one person who almost stopped breathing after taking the vaccine because she was worried about it affecting her cancer. They still made her take it. My friend, was concerned for her Mental Health, and her health issues stemming from Alcohol abuse, they made her take it and she started twitching in the eye after. They both did not want to take it but we're forced.

So you want people to take it even though they know their body and have concerns for their own life?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

edit: to be clear I meant fighting the spread of a global pandemic.  Obviously individuals have healed from covid, that’s not the point. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 09:44:00 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 03, 2021, 03:38:16 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 03, 2021, 03:23:01 PM

And in your case, Trump himself got the vaccine. If it were going to kill us, maim us, or implant tracking chips in us, wouldn't he have been in the know and opted out?

This is honestly the only reason why I wasn't bothered by all the politicians getting the vaccine.  I think it sets an example that it isn't partisan and that the people with power in this country aren't worried about it.

Did they, though, or was it stagecraft?  Hmmmm?    :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 09:50:05 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

I wear a mask. I respect social distancing rules and give way to others as often as possible. I wash my hands and use sanitizer so much that my fucking phone stopped recognizing my fingerprints for a spell. Those are my efforts to help stop the spread.

I'm also a type 2 diabetic, over 50,and on immune suppressors for my psoriasis. I watch my diet somewhat carefully to monitor my a1c, between my two jobs I average 30 to 50k steps a day so excersise isn't much of an issue. Tats what I do to hopefully keep a case mild if I do get it.

And I geot vaccinated not only for my safety, but for the good of the whole. For those who can't get it for myriad reasons. Social responsibility.  That's what I do for my fellows because I'm a decent human who follows the science and not my own selfish beliefs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

How do we know that? How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

And how can it not be fought individually? Isn't that what we are doing by Masking, Washing Hands, and Social Distancing. Because even though you got the vaccine you are still required to do these things. If the vaccine was known to work well and stop spread of Covid and transmission, then we wouldn't need to Mask, and Social Distancing. We always should be sanitary and wash our hands.

Look these Diseases, came here to our Native areas as the Europeans were really unsanitary people and were vectors of various Hosts of diseases. What caused us to die isn't just those sicknesses but the Hardships we faced that made us unhealthy. Both physically and Mentally, plus they would gather and put us in one location causing one infected person to spread it to everyone, they forced people into confined buildings...Just like Cuomo.

And yeah. Look at the people and how they're reacting now they got the vaccine. They're acting holier than thou now...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:59:30 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 09:50:05 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

I wear a mask. I respect social distancing rules and give way to others as often as possible. I wash my hands and use sanitizer so much that my fucking phone stopped recognizing my fingerprints for a spell. Those are my efforts to help stop the spread.

I'm also a type 2 diabetic, over 50,and on immune suppressors for my psoriasis. I watch my diet somewhat carefully to monitor my a1c, between my two jobs I average 30 to 50k steps a day so excersise isn't much of an issue. Tats what I do to hopefully keep a case mild if I do get it.

And I geot vaccinated not only for my safety, but for the good of the whole. For those who can't get it for myriad reasons. Social responsibility.  That's what I do for my fellows because I'm a decent human who follows the science and not my own selfish beliefs.

That's good.

For how long though? There are ways that you can heal the body with food. There's plenty of articles and videos about it.

And I am not forcing you to change your diet and eat this way. I am just giving info about different ways other than a vaccine that has worked before for Coronavirus'. As was said, we don't know, so why is getting a vaccine acting as if we know for sure, when it's a new vaccine that hasn't need implemented on the population yet.

If it's about the spread, then might as well live in a bubble. We humans are not designed to wear masks all the time and constantly like those whom work do...Some people are getting anxiety and have to walk outside to breathe...because they're not getting enough air through that mask at work.

It's been a year and we're still here. While volcanos are erupting and it's getting cold where it's hot and hot where it's cold. Climate change ya'll...

This disease is just one of many possible things that can and will kill us. I could take the vaccine and walk out that door and boom, get hit by truck. We are not guaranteed life, and we don't know how we will go. Even if we do everything we can to try and prevent it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 10:03:33 AM

Fuck it. I'm out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:15:41 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

edit: to be clear I meant fighting the spread of a global pandemic.  Obviously individuals have healed from covid, that’s not the point.

I'm staying out of the bulk of that conversation, because of the overlapping issues, but let's not swing too far with the sanctimony; COVID CAN be fought individually, just far less efficiently and it's misleading to say otherwise.   

You and a couple others here are acting as if the vaccine is strapping on a pair of shoes.  Like it or not - and I certainly understand if you don't - it's a legitimate problem for some to have some third party force them to inject - or not - something into their bodies.  Again, as I've said repeatedly, substitute in "abortion" and see if you feel similarly.

I've been pretty adamant that I'm getting it as soon as I can (I've already stopped into my CVS to see if I can get an unclaimed dose), but I'm not going to lie to you:  I'm scared as hell to get it.  I've also taken it on myself to get my dad and mom signed up - at their request - and yet I'm even more petrified of that.  They are 81 and 83, one handicapped (severely immuno-compromised), one with the early signs of Alzheimers, and if there IS a reaction, I don't know how I'd live with myself.  That has actually kept me up at night.

The unknown is scary to some people.  It doesn't have to be "conspiracy" or "selfishness" or any of the other derogatory descriptors that get put on those that don't toe the line.  It can be just legitimate personal fear or uncomfortableness.  I'm well educated (engineer, lawyer, MBA) who knows a good deal of the science, and accepts it for what it is.  That's not always enough to alleviate my fears, any more than knowing the physics of standing on a ladder alleviates my fear of heights.

Yeah, vaccines bring BENEFIT to the group as well as the individual, but we need to be tolerant that it's STILL the individuals' choice to participate in that benefit.  Just because the current impacts seem more immediate or proximate doesn't change that.   I'm pro-vaccine, but I add that choice to the long list of things that I don't like about my fellow humans that I have to tolerate as part of living in a free society, even one with a social contract.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

We do have it. It's just not well known or used. They won't bother studying it, and therefore don't know it's benefits. But it is working with those people whom do do it. What happened was when the companies made these vaccines, those natural remedies and holistic ways were considered as "Snake oil" deals or pagan practices. And the new term for it is New Age, see how they use terms.

They did the same thing with Cannabis and we are barely realizing the lie that was told.

Think about it, what knowledge would we have for these diseases if that knowledge wasn't supressed.

It amazes me that these Scientists haven't done much research into these things until recently.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 04, 2021, 10:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:15:41 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

edit: to be clear I meant fighting the spread of a global pandemic.  Obviously individuals have healed from covid, that’s not the point.

I'm staying out of the bulk of that conversation, because of the overlapping issues, but let's not swing too far with the sanctimony; COVID CAN be fought individually, just far less efficiently and it's misleading to say otherwise.   

You and a couple others here are acting as if the vaccine is strapping on a pair of shoes.  Like it or not - and I certainly understand if you don't - it's a legitimate problem for some to have some third party force them to inject - or not - something into their bodies.  Again, as I've said repeatedly, substitute in "abortion" and see if you feel similarly.

I've been pretty adamant that I'm getting it as soon as I can (I've already stopped into my CVS to see if I can get an unclaimed dose), but I'm not going to lie to you:  I'm scared as hell to get it.  I've also taken it on myself to get my dad and mom signed up - at their request - and yet I'm even more petrified of that.  They are 81 and 83, one handicapped (severely immuno-compromised), one with the early signs of Alzheimers, and if there IS a reaction, I don't know how I'd live with myself.  That has actually kept me up at night.

Yeah, vaccines bring BENEFIT to the group as well as the individual, but we need to be tolerant that it's STILL the individuals' choice to participate in that benefit.  Just because the current impacts seem more immediate or proximate doesn't change that.   I'm pro-vaccine, but I add that choice to the long list of things that I don't like about my fellow humans that I have to tolerate as part of living in a free society, even one with a social contract.

Does this apply to the polio vaccine? How about measles, which is now making a comeback?

Seems to me we should apply the same logic we use elsewhere. Don't want the Covid vaccine? No problem. Your kids won't be allowed back in school. Your employer can prevent you from working should you avoid it, including governmental agencies. Airlines can refuse to let you on board. Governments can block your entrance. It's your personal choice. Do as you see fit. Just live with the consequences of your own decisions. Isn't that what personal responsibility is all about?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:22:24 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:15:41 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

edit: to be clear I meant fighting the spread of a global pandemic.  Obviously individuals have healed from covid, that’s not the point.

I'm staying out of the bulk of that conversation, because of the overlapping issues, but let's not swing too far with the sanctimony; COVID CAN be fought individually, just far less efficiently and it's misleading to say otherwise.   

You and a couple others here are acting as if the vaccine is strapping on a pair of shoes.  Like it or not - and I certainly understand if you don't - it's a legitimate problem for some to have some third party force them to inject - or not - something into their bodies.  Again, as I've said repeatedly, substitute in "abortion" and see if you feel similarly.

I've been pretty adamant that I'm getting it as soon as I can (I've already stopped into my CVS to see if I can get an unclaimed dose), but I'm not going to lie to you:  I'm scared as hell to get it.  I've also taken it on myself to get my dad and mom signed up - at their request - and yet I'm even more petrified of that.  They are 81 and 83, one handicapped (severely immuno-compromised), one with the early signs of Alzheimers, and if there IS a reaction, I don't know how I'd live with myself.  That has actually kept me up at night.

The unknown is scary to some people.  It doesn't have to be "conspiracy" or "selfishness" or any of the other derogatory descriptors that get put on those that don't toe the line.  It can be just legitimate personal fear or uncomfortableness.  I'm well educated (engineer, lawyer, MBA) who knows a good deal of the science, and accepts it for what it is.  That's not always enough to alleviate my fears, any more than knowing the physics of standing on a ladder alleviates my fear of heights.

Yeah, vaccines bring BENEFIT to the group as well as the individual, but we need to be tolerant that it's STILL the individuals' choice to participate in that benefit.  Just because the current impacts seem more immediate or proximate doesn't change that.   I'm pro-vaccine, but I add that choice to the long list of things that I don't like about my fellow humans that I have to tolerate as part of living in a free society, even one with a social contract.

Thank You. That's all I was trying to get at.

And sorry for the overlapping. These are things that are connected and things that should be talked about and considered.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:22:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

They did the same thing with Cannabis ...

First thing that popped into my mind.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:23:38 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

We do have it. It's just not well known or used. They won't bother studying it, and therefore don't know it's benefits. But it is working with those people whom do do it.

What is this then?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:26:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:22:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

They did the same thing with Cannabis ...

First thing that popped into my mind.

I don't know if it relates to cannabis though, like I see the correlation but the difference is that if cannabis ended a pandemic, I think it would have been adopted.  In many areas I see how corporations would use their money and power to keep something like cannabis illegal so they could profit off a prescription medicine instead, but I don't see how that relates to a pandemic like we have here.  If there were known and legit solutions, I think the masses would have adopted it by now.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I need to see evidence that there's a natural cure for covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:30:35 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 04, 2021, 10:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:15:41 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

edit: to be clear I meant fighting the spread of a global pandemic.  Obviously individuals have healed from covid, that’s not the point.

I'm staying out of the bulk of that conversation, because of the overlapping issues, but let's not swing too far with the sanctimony; COVID CAN be fought individually, just far less efficiently and it's misleading to say otherwise.   

You and a couple others here are acting as if the vaccine is strapping on a pair of shoes.  Like it or not - and I certainly understand if you don't - it's a legitimate problem for some to have some third party force them to inject - or not - something into their bodies.  Again, as I've said repeatedly, substitute in "abortion" and see if you feel similarly.

I've been pretty adamant that I'm getting it as soon as I can (I've already stopped into my CVS to see if I can get an unclaimed dose), but I'm not going to lie to you:  I'm scared as hell to get it.  I've also taken it on myself to get my dad and mom signed up - at their request - and yet I'm even more petrified of that.  They are 81 and 83, one handicapped (severely immuno-compromised), one with the early signs of Alzheimers, and if there IS a reaction, I don't know how I'd live with myself.  That has actually kept me up at night.

Yeah, vaccines bring BENEFIT to the group as well as the individual, but we need to be tolerant that it's STILL the individuals' choice to participate in that benefit.  Just because the current impacts seem more immediate or proximate doesn't change that.   I'm pro-vaccine, but I add that choice to the long list of things that I don't like about my fellow humans that I have to tolerate as part of living in a free society, even one with a social contract.

Does this apply to the polio vaccine? How about measles, which is now making a comeback?

Seems to me we should apply the same logic we use elsewhere. Don't want the Covid vaccine? No problem. Your kids won't be allowed back in school. Your employer can prevent you from working should you avoid it, including governmental agencies. Airlines can refuse to let you on board. Governments can block your entrance. It's your personal choice. Do as you see fit. Just live with the consequences of your own decisions. Isn't that what personal responsibility is all about?

It applies to any vaccine.

And I have no argument against that logic and I've said elsewhere something to that effect; it fits perfectly within the established system for adjudicating competing rights within our democracy.  Within reason, though; there will be some things that don't get the treatment - voting comes to mind - that we've established that ancillary restrictions don't apply because the right to them are fundamental and cannot be abridged without passing the most stringent of tests.  It surprises some, but education, air flights, etc. aren't a fundamental right, and so they can be blocked for things like vaccines, failure to pay taxes, etc.  You have no RIGHT to them and I have no problem denying access to them for societal concerns. 

I'm more bothered by this simplistic idea that increasingly reads to me like "I don't like the outcomes, so I get to tell you what to do, and attack you personally (stupid, selfish, ignorant, deplorable) if you don't agree."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 04, 2021, 10:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:15:41 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

edit: to be clear I meant fighting the spread of a global pandemic.  Obviously individuals have healed from covid, that’s not the point.

I'm staying out of the bulk of that conversation, because of the overlapping issues, but let's not swing too far with the sanctimony; COVID CAN be fought individually, just far less efficiently and it's misleading to say otherwise.   

You and a couple others here are acting as if the vaccine is strapping on a pair of shoes.  Like it or not - and I certainly understand if you don't - it's a legitimate problem for some to have some third party force them to inject - or not - something into their bodies.  Again, as I've said repeatedly, substitute in "abortion" and see if you feel similarly.

I've been pretty adamant that I'm getting it as soon as I can (I've already stopped into my CVS to see if I can get an unclaimed dose), but I'm not going to lie to you:  I'm scared as hell to get it.  I've also taken it on myself to get my dad and mom signed up - at their request - and yet I'm even more petrified of that.  They are 81 and 83, one handicapped (severely immuno-compromised), one with the early signs of Alzheimers, and if there IS a reaction, I don't know how I'd live with myself.  That has actually kept me up at night.

Yeah, vaccines bring BENEFIT to the group as well as the individual, but we need to be tolerant that it's STILL the individuals' choice to participate in that benefit.  Just because the current impacts seem more immediate or proximate doesn't change that.   I'm pro-vaccine, but I add that choice to the long list of things that I don't like about my fellow humans that I have to tolerate as part of living in a free society, even one with a social contract.

Does this apply to the polio vaccine? How about measles, which is now making a comeback?

Seems to me we should apply the same logic we use elsewhere. Don't want the Covid vaccine? No problem. Your kids won't be allowed back in school. Your employer can prevent you from working should you avoid it, including governmental agencies. Airlines can refuse to let you on board. Governments can block your entrance. It's your personal choice. Do as you see fit. Just live with the consequences of your own decisions. Isn't that what personal responsibility is all about?

Yes and nobody did this at all before the pandemic. And now, it's as if they were doing this since the beginning. No one had personal responsibility for their own health before and now it's too late, and people are dying form their own personal responsibility they have to their health. By eating healthy and exercising, and not doing things that are detrimental to ones Health, like smoking cigarettes.

So it's my fault you are susceptible to this because you didn't have personal responsibility for your health and now may die from this virus?

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:23:38 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

We do have it. It's just not well known or used. They won't bother studying it, and therefore don't know it's benefits. But it is working with those people whom do do it.

What is this then?

You can look them up. There's plenty. Also, I have to mention with regards to "Healthy"...my Hopi people were considered skinny and malnourished because we were slim people and why they have us food to fatten us up. What we survived on was what we grew, and also we traded, this entire country was a vast cultural entity with trading spots where we would meet like a farmer's market.

But yeah, it's kind of why I would what to get into the science of health and go to school to learn for myself, and say for myself these things. But then again, if I do, will people believe what I say or dismiss is a bologna theory? It's what some people are doing with certain Doctors and Scientists.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:34:04 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:26:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:22:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

They did the same thing with Cannabis ...

First thing that popped into my mind.

I don't know if it relates to cannabis though, like I see the correlation but the difference is that if cannabis ended a pandemic, I think it would have been adopted.  In many areas I see how corporations would use their money and power to keep something like cannabis illegal so they could profit off a prescription medicine instead, but I don't see how that relates to a pandemic like we have here.  If there were known and legit solutions, I think the masses would have adopted it by now.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I need to see evidence that there's a natural cure for covid.

That's a fair point; I was focusing mainly on the marijuana discussion being far broader than simply medical efficacy.  We in Connecticut are STILL haggling over it, and in my understanding it's largely the liquor lobby that is opposing it at this point.  That lobby is strong here, though, with the casinos and being located midway between New York and Boston.

I have no clue about any natural cure for COVID.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 10:36:01 AM

masks work if everybody wears them.  Vaccines work if everybody takes them.  Again when I say work I mean in stopping the spread, so it can’t be some sort of « if you feel like it» or « do it to protect yourself if you’re so scared » thing or else it won’t cut it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 10:39:12 AM

people are not dying from covid just because of their personal health.  That’s what I mean by half truth and misinformation. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:42:04 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:30:35 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 04, 2021, 10:22:16 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:15:41 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

and I believe it all plays a part.

Covid doesn't give a fuck about your beliefs.


Also, getting vaccinated isn't about you, it's about us.

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

As I've said, if you're worried about it, I would be doing everything to get more healthier and not get those conditions that up the chances. Eating better, exercising, not being stressed and doing things that won't cause excess stress. Do breathing techniques to improve respiratory issues. All these things, are being responsible for your own health, and not asking others to be responsible for your health because you are at risk.

COVID cannot be fought individually, please stop spreading half truths and misinformation.   Covid vaccine isn’t just a thing one should maybe take just because the’re afraid like you keep repeating.  That’s flat out dangerous thing to say

edit: to be clear I meant fighting the spread of a global pandemic.  Obviously individuals have healed from covid, that’s not the point.

I'm staying out of the bulk of that conversation, because of the overlapping issues, but let's not swing too far with the sanctimony; COVID CAN be fought individually, just far less efficiently and it's misleading to say otherwise.   

You and a couple others here are acting as if the vaccine is strapping on a pair of shoes.  Like it or not - and I certainly understand if you don't - it's a legitimate problem for some to have some third party force them to inject - or not - something into their bodies.  Again, as I've said repeatedly, substitute in "abortion" and see if you feel similarly.

I've been pretty adamant that I'm getting it as soon as I can (I've already stopped into my CVS to see if I can get an unclaimed dose), but I'm not going to lie to you:  I'm scared as hell to get it.  I've also taken it on myself to get my dad and mom signed up - at their request - and yet I'm even more petrified of that.  They are 81 and 83, one handicapped (severely immuno-compromised), one with the early signs of Alzheimers, and if there IS a reaction, I don't know how I'd live with myself.  That has actually kept me up at night.

Yeah, vaccines bring BENEFIT to the group as well as the individual, but we need to be tolerant that it's STILL the individuals' choice to participate in that benefit.  Just because the current impacts seem more immediate or proximate doesn't change that.   I'm pro-vaccine, but I add that choice to the long list of things that I don't like about my fellow humans that I have to tolerate as part of living in a free society, even one with a social contract.

Does this apply to the polio vaccine? How about measles, which is now making a comeback?

Seems to me we should apply the same logic we use elsewhere. Don't want the Covid vaccine? No problem. Your kids won't be allowed back in school. Your employer can prevent you from working should you avoid it, including governmental agencies. Airlines can refuse to let you on board. Governments can block your entrance. It's your personal choice. Do as you see fit. Just live with the consequences of your own decisions. Isn't that what personal responsibility is all about?

It applies to any vaccine.

And I'm fine with that logic; I've said elsewhere something to that effect.  Within reason, though; there will be some things that don't get the treatment - voting comes to mind - that we've established that ancillary restrictions don't apply because the right to them are fundamental and cannot be abridged without passing the most stringent of tests.  It surprises some, but education, air flights, etc. aren't a fundamental right, and so they can be blocked for things like vaccines, failure to pay taxes, etc.  You have no RIGHT to them and I have no problem denying access to them for societal concerns.

Exactly, and some are becoming to understand that and realize, to survive is to be self-sufficient. They've come to understand, we can't be reliant on others for basic survival needs. Doesn't mean we leave the other to fend for themselves as well, if they struggle we help until they can become self-sufficient again.

Some are beginning to homeschool, even at that's they still have to follow a regulated law because that determines the education required of a child, and would be considered neglect if that child doesn't have adequate education....

I'll stop because this is just starting to go into many other topics of discussion, although related to this pandemic. This pandemic isn't just about the disease.

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 10:36:01 AM

masks work if everybody wears them.  Vaccines work if everybody takes them.  Again when I say work I mean in stopping the spread, so it can’t be some sort of « if you feel like it» or « do it to protect yourself if you’re so scared » thing or else it won’t cut it. 

And Mexican towns dont want to take it because they don't visit the big cities, yet their governments are not forcing them to either. That's exactly what I meant by this can't be eradicated, because people think for themselves and have differing opinions and views based on their experiences in life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 10:43:41 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

It's stuff like this where you lose my ability to take you seriously.  Underlying conditions don't "up the chances of catching it"; underlying conditions up the chances of serious health issues and/or dying.  Anyone can catch it.  Most of the people I personally know who have caught it are mostly guessing at how/where they caught it (see, Gary)

At this point, I can't tell if your consciously trolling this thread, or just so ignorant it's coming naturally, or why you twist your facts (or ignore/disregard others) so they match your beliefs and views.  You sound like the Jenny McCarthy of COVID.

So, like lonestar... I'm out.

Edit ... ninja's like 17 times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 04, 2021, 10:47:17 AM

Ben is not the kind of person who strikes me as a troll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:49:06 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:23:38 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

We do have it. It's just not well known or used. They won't bother studying it, and therefore don't know it's benefits. But it is working with those people whom do do it.

What is this then?

You can look them up.

Well that response makes you lose credibility IMO  :tdwn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:52:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 10:43:41 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

It's stuff like this where you lose my ability to take you seriously.  Underlying conditions don't "up the chances of catching it"; underlying conditions up the chances of serious health issues and/or dying.  Anyone can catch it.  Most of the people I personally know who have caught it are mostly guessing at how/where they caught it (see, Gary)

At this point, I can't tell if your consciously trolling this thread, or just so ignorant it's coming naturally, or why you twist your facts (or ignore/disregard others) so they match your beliefs and views.  You sound like the Jenny McCarthy of COVID.

So, like lonestar... I'm out.

Edit ... ninja's like 17 times.

You know what I meant. And I should've worded it better to say..."health issues and dying", and not "catching", because of the comprehension issues form text.

Yes I know anyone can catch it because it's a coronavirus just like the common cold is a coronavirus.

Again, why are the death totals so high? That article I posted mentioned a study that mentions one reason that COULD be why it's so high.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:58:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:49:06 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:23:38 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

We do have it. It's just not well known or used. They won't bother studying it, and therefore don't know it's benefits. But it is working with those people whom do do it.

What is this then?

You can look them up.

Well that response makes you lose credibility IMO  :tdwn

I knew you were gonna do that, but I said it anyways.

For reals though, the information is there to read, if you can take the time to read or watch. Look up Gut Bacteria and Diet...

https://youtu.be/ZbmCebsuXMo

https://youtu.be/zPO8-M_rcUo

https://youtu.be/4kYhRPbiOyg

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:59:35 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 10:36:01 AM

masks work if everybody wears them.  Vaccines work if everybody takes them.  Again when I say work I mean in stopping the spread, so it can’t be some sort of « if you feel like it» or « do it to protect yourself if you’re so scared » thing or else it won’t cut it.

I'm not trying to break your balls, I'm really not (I swear to you), but masks work BEST if everyone wears them.  Vaccines work BEST if everybody takes them.  If the standard is absolute, we were fucked from the get-go, because there's not a single thing - literally not ONE SINGLE THING - that we can get absolute agreement in each STATE let alone at the national level or the global level.   Just from a practical perspective, there has to be some allowance for those that can't or won't.  It's like anything else (we've never, to my knowledge, had more than about 90% of Americans vaccinated at any one time for measles).   And brow-beating those that can't or won't as being part of the problem - without knowing WHY they can't or won't - doesn't move us any closer to getting this done.   

To save space:

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 10:39:12 AM

people are not dying from covid just because of their personal health.  That’s what I mean by half truth and misinformation. 

That was not clear; if that's what you meant, so be it. I agree with that statement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 04, 2021, 11:01:30 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html

Interesting read.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 11:07:11 AM

Quote from: emtee on March 04, 2021, 11:01:30 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html

Interesting read.

I just posted this earlier. But it got buried...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 11:25:16 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:58:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:49:06 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:23:38 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

We do have it. It's just not well known or used. They won't bother studying it, and therefore don't know it's benefits. But it is working with those people whom do do it.

What is this then?

You can look them up.

Well that response makes you lose credibility IMO  :tdwn

I knew you were gonna do that, but I said it anyways.

For reals though, the information is there to read, if you can take the time to read or watch. Look up Gut Bacteria and Diet...

https://youtu.be/ZbmCebsuXMo

https://youtu.be/zPO8-M_rcUo

https://youtu.be/4kYhRPbiOyg

None of these relate to what we were talking about, a natural way to stop covid.  If you want to talk about personal health, which you keep bringing up, then fine, but that's not what you were talking about in this case and not what you were suggesting. 

Quote from: emtee on March 04, 2021, 11:01:30 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html

Interesting read.

yes, this is well known, but doesn't change this:

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 10:39:12 AM

people are not dying from covid just because of their personal health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 11:54:24 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 04, 2021, 10:47:17 AM

Ben is not the kind of person who strikes me as a troll.

I agree... but his comments sure are troll-worthy.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:52:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 10:43:41 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

It's stuff like this where you lose my ability to take you seriously.  Underlying conditions don't "up the chances of catching it"; underlying conditions up the chances of serious health issues and/or dying.  Anyone can catch it.  Most of the people I personally know who have caught it are mostly guessing at how/where they caught it (see, Gary)

At this point, I can't tell if your consciously trolling this thread, or just so ignorant it's coming naturally, or why you twist your facts (or ignore/disregard others) so they match your beliefs and views.  You sound like the Jenny McCarthy of COVID.

So, like lonestar... I'm out.

Edit ... ninja's like 17 times.

You know what I meant. And I should've worded it better to say..."health issues and dying", and not "catching", because of the comprehension issues form text.

Yes I know anyone can catch it because it's a coronavirus just like the common cold is a coronavirus.

I thought you meant exactly what you typed.  You've made so many other false, misleading, and bizarre statements, how am I to know what you *really* meant?

I appreciate you clarifying.  Doesn't change my opinion though - false equivalencies like 'the common cold' doesn't help you either.  Carbon monoxide is a gas, just as oxygen is.  Doesn't mean I'm going to go turn my car on in the garage and take a nap in the backseat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 04, 2021, 11:59:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 11:54:24 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 04, 2021, 10:47:17 AM

Ben is not the kind of person who strikes me as a troll.

I agree... but his comments sure are troll-worthy.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:52:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 10:43:41 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

It's stuff like this where you lose my ability to take you seriously.  Underlying conditions don't "up the chances of catching it"; underlying conditions up the chances of serious health issues and/or dying.  Anyone can catch it.  Most of the people I personally know who have caught it are mostly guessing at how/where they caught it (see, Gary)

At this point, I can't tell if your consciously trolling this thread, or just so ignorant it's coming naturally, or why you twist your facts (or ignore/disregard others) so they match your beliefs and views.  You sound like the Jenny McCarthy of COVID.

So, like lonestar... I'm out.

Edit ... ninja's like 17 times.

You know what I meant. And I should've worded it better to say..."health issues and dying", and not "catching", because of the comprehension issues form text.

Yes I know anyone can catch it because it's a coronavirus just like the common cold is a coronavirus.

I thought you meant exactly what you typed.  You've made so many other false, misleading, and bizarre statements, how am I to know what you *really* meant?

I appreciate you clarifying.  Doesn't change my opinion though - false equivalencies like 'the common cold' doesn't help you either.  Carbon monoxide is a gas, just as oxygen is.  Doesn't mean I'm going to go turn my car on in the garage and take a nap in the backseat.

You could do that safely with a Tesla :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 12:33:59 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 04, 2021, 11:59:04 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 11:54:24 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 04, 2021, 10:47:17 AM

Ben is not the kind of person who strikes me as a troll.

I agree... but his comments sure are troll-worthy.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:52:26 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 04, 2021, 10:43:41 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

Besides getting a vaccine. What are you (in general) doing so you won't get underlying conditions that up the chances of catching it.

It's stuff like this where you lose my ability to take you seriously.  Underlying conditions don't "up the chances of catching it"; underlying conditions up the chances of serious health issues and/or dying.  Anyone can catch it.  Most of the people I personally know who have caught it are mostly guessing at how/where they caught it (see, Gary)

At this point, I can't tell if your consciously trolling this thread, or just so ignorant it's coming naturally, or why you twist your facts (or ignore/disregard others) so they match your beliefs and views.  You sound like the Jenny McCarthy of COVID.

So, like lonestar... I'm out.

Edit ... ninja's like 17 times.

You know what I meant. And I should've worded it better to say..."health issues and dying", and not "catching", because of the comprehension issues form text.

Yes I know anyone can catch it because it's a coronavirus just like the common cold is a coronavirus.

I thought you meant exactly what you typed.  You've made so many other false, misleading, and bizarre statements, how am I to know what you *really* meant?

I appreciate you clarifying.  Doesn't change my opinion though - false equivalencies like 'the common cold' doesn't help you either.  Carbon monoxide is a gas, just as oxygen is.  Doesn't mean I'm going to go turn my car on in the garage and take a nap in the backseat.

You could do that safely with a Tesla :neverusethis:

 :lol

And quite possibly the Hemp Car... :biggrin:

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 11:25:16 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:58:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:49:06 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:23:38 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 09:51:00 AM

How do we know if these Natural Remedies or Holistic ways are not working?

If we had a natural or holistic way to stop covid, we would have stopped it by now.  I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

We do have it. It's just not well known or used. They won't bother studying it, and therefore don't know it's benefits. But it is working with those people whom do do it.

What is this then?

You can look them up.

Well that response makes you lose credibility IMO  :tdwn

I knew you were gonna do that, but I said it anyways.

For reals though, the information is there to read, if you can take the time to read or watch. Look up Gut Bacteria and Diet...

https://youtu.be/ZbmCebsuXMo

https://youtu.be/zPO8-M_rcUo

https://youtu.be/4kYhRPbiOyg

None of these relate to what we were talking about, a natural way to stop covid.  If you want to talk about personal health, which you keep bringing up, then fine, but that's not what you were talking about in this case and not what you were suggesting. 

Quote from: emtee on March 04, 2021, 11:01:30 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html

Interesting read.

yes, this is well known, but doesn't change this:

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 04, 2021, 10:39:12 AM

people are not dying from covid just because of their personal health.

But it is one of the biggest reasons why people are dying from it. If that article Emtee also posted is of any concern for the amount of Deaths, in countries where Obesity is high compared to the countries where it's low is to go by.

I am sorry, and it is unfortunate, people are dying from Covid. It's just hard to accept that we were not responsible for it ourselves, while putting the blame on others for not doing one thing that can help someone else not get it. That is assuming the people whom are susceptible to getting worse health or even death, are not doing anything that is detrimental to their own health. What if I do get the vaccine and they do something else that is just as detrimental to their health and die that way, thus I didn't cause them to die.

Why should I worry about your health so you can continue to detriment it further with the other ways that affect your health, while I can't enjoy and detriment my own health with those things?


I hope I got across what I am trying to say?...If not then ignore it and carry on...I'll stop with these thoughts and concerns now. Also, I talked to people and some of these are not my concerns or my thoughts, some are thoughts that I incorporated as how some people are thinking about this and what their views are, I just don't remember whom exactly told me that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 04, 2021, 12:35:02 PM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it.

I can firmly believe that a unicorn is going to jump out of ass and spit cider in my ear, that doesn't mean it's true.  With all due respect, megadosing on vitamins isn't going to do squat to protect you from infection with Covid-19.   There is NO evidence at all for this.  None.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 04, 2021, 12:42:07 PM

I am not an expert, but last I read, taking large amounts of vitamins (beyond the norm) isn't terribly helpful and might be harmful. Your body will absorb what it can, which will not be increased just by taking more vitamins. At best you'll end up with very fancy urine and at worst it'll do harm by either being toxic or by hurting your liver or kidney or whatever has to process all of that.

So a healthy amount of vitamins is good, but I don't think megadosing is helpful at all. Again, might be wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 12:46:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 04, 2021, 12:35:02 PM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it.

I can firmly believe that a unicorn is going to jump out of ass and spit cider in my ear, that doesn't mean it's true.  With all due respect, megadosing on vitamins isn't going to do squat to protect you from infection with Covid-19.   There is NO evidence at all for this.  None.

But it can help with how serious you will get it. It's the immune system that determines how your body reacts to sicknesses, these are the Microbiomes, Gut Bacteria that those doctors talk about.

This one is long, but is a good lecture....
https://youtu.be/mioR_WrkRaU

The Vaccine is so you won't get a serious illness if you catch covid, and many people whom caught covid are fine. Yes, people have gotten worse long-term symptoms and after-effects, the hangover. Those people's immune systems were likely already not as strong as they thought. The only way to know is to get those check-ups. That's the only reason why we should really see a doctor for our health is to check-up and see if it is in tip-top shape. I haven't been to one in years, so I know I have problems with my health, that is my fault and no one else's but my own, and no one is at fault if I die by catching a cold or Covid.

Yes, I know vaccines can eradicate Virus'. But it won't completely wipe them out in the world, if places like the villages in Mexico don't want to take it. And there are actual people here in the US and elsewhere in the world, whom have reasons like those people in Mexico, for not getting it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 04, 2021, 12:47:09 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:34:04 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:26:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:22:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

They did the same thing with Cannabis ...

First thing that popped into my mind.

I don't know if it relates to cannabis though, like I see the correlation but the difference is that if cannabis ended a pandemic, I think it would have been adopted.  In many areas I see how corporations would use their money and power to keep something like cannabis illegal so they could profit off a prescription medicine instead, but I don't see how that relates to a pandemic like we have here.  If there were known and legit solutions, I think the masses would have adopted it by now.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I need to see evidence that there's a natural cure for covid.

That's a fair point; I was focusing mainly on the marijuana discussion being far broader than simply medical efficacy.  We in Connecticut are STILL haggling over it, and in my understanding it's largely the liquor lobby that is opposing it at this point.  That lobby is strong here, though, with the casinos and being located midway between New York and Boston.

I have no clue about any natural cure for COVID.

That is because there are precisely ZERO scientifically proven "natural" or "holistic" cures for much of anything, including Covid.  The minute I see that word "holistic" I know everything coming next is pure bunk, sorry.  Ask any doctor who is actually a doctor of medicine and they'll tell you that "holistic" generally means "comfort stuff" like honey for your sore throat.  There's nothing wrong with it, but it ain't gonna "cure" squat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 12:47:52 PM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 04, 2021, 04:24:03 AM

Both my parents took the vaccine. They're pushing me to do it but I'm extremely hesitant about it.

I work with a handful of people who had the virus. A few of them died. At one point, more than half the people in my office were either quarantining or actually had it. I firmly believe that because I've been megadosing certain vitamins since this whole situation started my immune system has done a good job at protecting me from it. I don't have any preexisting conditions, no allergies, getting sick is a rare thing for me, and I believe it all plays a part.

I would like to know what vitamins you are using, and what you all do to better your immune system? I think this would be good info to know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 12:53:38 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 04, 2021, 12:47:09 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:34:04 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:26:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:22:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

They did the same thing with Cannabis ...

First thing that popped into my mind.

I don't know if it relates to cannabis though, like I see the correlation but the difference is that if cannabis ended a pandemic, I think it would have been adopted.  In many areas I see how corporations would use their money and power to keep something like cannabis illegal so they could profit off a prescription medicine instead, but I don't see how that relates to a pandemic like we have here.  If there were known and legit solutions, I think the masses would have adopted it by now.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I need to see evidence that there's a natural cure for covid.

That's a fair point; I was focusing mainly on the marijuana discussion being far broader than simply medical efficacy.  We in Connecticut are STILL haggling over it, and in my understanding it's largely the liquor lobby that is opposing it at this point.  That lobby is strong here, though, with the casinos and being located midway between New York and Boston.

I have no clue about any natural cure for COVID.

That is because there are precisely ZERO scientifically proven "natural" or "holistic" cures for much of anything, including Covid.  The minute I see that word "holistic" I know everything coming next is pure bunk, sorry.  Ask any doctor who is actually a doctor of medicine and they'll tell you that "holistic" generally means "comfort stuff" like honey for your sore throat.  There's nothing wrong with it, but it ain't gonna "cure" squat.

What is curing? To ease one of the disease to bring them back to health. People have been remedied, by using these methods. It's also not scientifically proven because these things are not physical methods, but methods that work with the Mind, and the thoughts, and your feelings, and how those Mental Health issues affect the physical body. And we don't know much about Mental Health.

What about the rise of Mental Health Issues that has happened because of our reaction and response to the pandemic? Is that not a big enough issue and does long term damage as much as the physical disease does?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 12:53:51 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 04, 2021, 12:42:07 PM

I am not an expert, but last I read, taking large amounts of vitamins (beyond the norm) isn't terribly helpful and might be harmful. Your body will absorb what it can, which will not be increased just by taking more vitamins. At best you'll end up with very fancy urine and at worst it'll do harm by either being toxic or by hurting your liver or kidney or whatever has to process all of that.

So a healthy amount of vitamins is good, but I don't think megadosing is helpful at all. Again, might be wrong.

My understanding was that vitamin D was the only real vitamin that was noticeably lacking in people who got severe covid.  In general, Americans have low vitamin D, including myself.  I however have been taking a daily vitamin for years since I was diagnosed with low vitamin D.  I haven't had a blood test in awhile for it to know for 100% sure if I'm in a better place, but I got to think I am since I am very consistent with taking the daily vitamin and have doubled down on making sure I take it once I read about vitamin D deficiency being linked to severe covid.  Also I agree, you shouldn't over do the vitamins.  You'll definitely have a nice bright yellow urine but you could end up doing more harm than just that.  Like anything in this world, even the good stuff for you at high amounts no longer becomes good for you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 12:58:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 12:53:51 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 04, 2021, 12:42:07 PM

I am not an expert, but last I read, taking large amounts of vitamins (beyond the norm) isn't terribly helpful and might be harmful. Your body will absorb what it can, which will not be increased just by taking more vitamins. At best you'll end up with very fancy urine and at worst it'll do harm by either being toxic or by hurting your liver or kidney or whatever has to process all of that.

So a healthy amount of vitamins is good, but I don't think megadosing is helpful at all. Again, might be wrong.

My understanding was that vitamin D was the only real vitamin that was noticeably lacking in people who got severe covid.  In general, Americans have low vitamin D, including myself.  I however have been taking a daily vitamin for years since I was diagnosed with low vitamin D.  I haven't had a blood test in awhile for it to know for 100% sure if I'm in a better place, but I got to think I am since I am very consistent with taking the daily vitamin and have doubled down on making sure I take it once I read about vitamin D deficiency being linked to severe covid.  Also I agree, you shouldn't over do the vitamins.  You'll definitely have a nice bright yellow urine but you could end up doing more harm than just that.  Like anything in this world, even the good stuff for you at high amounts no longer becomes good for you.

It's my understanding, and why seeing a nutritionist should also be high on our list of health diagnosis. To see what Vitamins, and all the other Nutrients we are lacking and need. We are all different, so it won't be entirely the same. It's why one diet won't work for another person. And diets are arranged based on what your body is lacking and has to much of. It's why I can't eat Cheese, or certain things anymore, like really spicy stuff, I notice my body gets a certain way after eating those things now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 02:01:45 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 04, 2021, 12:47:09 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:34:04 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 10:26:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 04, 2021, 10:22:44 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 04, 2021, 10:20:06 AM

They did the same thing with Cannabis ...

First thing that popped into my mind.

I don't know if it relates to cannabis though, like I see the correlation but the difference is that if cannabis ended a pandemic, I think it would have been adopted.  In many areas I see how corporations would use their money and power to keep something like cannabis illegal so they could profit off a prescription medicine instead, but I don't see how that relates to a pandemic like we have here.  If there were known and legit solutions, I think the masses would have adopted it by now.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I need to see evidence that there's a natural cure for covid.

That's a fair point; I was focusing mainly on the marijuana discussion being far broader than simply medical efficacy.  We in Connecticut are STILL haggling over it, and in my understanding it's largely the liquor lobby that is opposing it at this point.  That lobby is strong here, though, with the casinos and being located midway between New York and Boston.

I have no clue about any natural cure for COVID.

That is because there are precisely ZERO scientifically proven "natural" or "holistic" cures for much of anything, including Covid.  The minute I see that word "holistic" I know everything coming next is pure bunk, sorry.  Ask any doctor who is actually a doctor of medicine and they'll tell you that "holistic" generally means "comfort stuff" like honey for your sore throat.  There's nothing wrong with it, but it ain't gonna "cure" squat.

Don't apologize to me, haha.  I'm in agreement on the general health of the U.S. - we're fat and we eat crap - but that's as far as I'm going.  I was just clarifying my point to Cram.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 04, 2021, 02:14:07 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 03:10:33 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot. I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Uh, but is it?  There are more than 50 million people now vaccinated in the united states all doing just fine, so it's OK to be nervous about it, I get that, but after doing trials with 10's of thousands of people followed by 10's of millions of doses administered with only a handful of bad reactions reported, it's not really a crap shoot at all.  NOT getting a vaccine?  THAT's the crap shoot.   You have no way of knowing how the virus will impact you but way, way, way, way more people who get the virus are dying than people who get the vaccine.  You've got it backwards, friend.

It's a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned because I don't want someone shooting that crap into my body.  I'm sure millions of others may feel the same.  But, I'm talking about me, not 50 million other people who got the vaccine and are doing just fine.  That's their concern, not mine.  I'm not a heath care worker, or food service worker, or any other kind of essential worker that needs to be on-site for their job.  I've been working from home for a year.  I live alone.  I've been following the guidelines.  So far what I've been doing has been 100% effective.  You can't say that about any vaccine.  This isn't a one size fits all type of situation, so lets try to have a little respect for individuals and the choices they decided to make for themselves.  I don't need someone cramming statistics down my throat and telling me I've got it backwards, so just knock it off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ryzee on March 04, 2021, 02:49:16 PM

Are you Anti Vaxx in general or just this one?  Like have you received any of the other vaccines that most folks have?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 04, 2021, 02:55:47 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 04, 2021, 02:14:07 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 03, 2021, 03:10:33 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 03, 2021, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 03, 2021, 10:47:43 AM

A friend of mine (health care worker) had Covid late last year and missed 4 weeks of work.  She just recently got the vaccine and is sick again from the shot.  :\

Some people have reactions to vaccines. I got a flu shot a few months ago (first in over a decade) and felt like I got hit by a truck. It's fine.

I realize that.  People also have different reactions to the virus itself.  However, it's not fine for her.  She's most likely missing more work and there's no guarantee the vaccine will last.  This whole thing with the vaccine is just one big gigantic crap shoot. I don't trust it and I don't trust mainstream media to give me any of the facts.  I could be wrong, but only time will tell if I am or not.  I'm waiting to see how the numbers pan out.  It's too soon to tell right now.

Uh, but is it?  There are more than 50 million people now vaccinated in the united states all doing just fine, so it's OK to be nervous about it, I get that, but after doing trials with 10's of thousands of people followed by 10's of millions of doses administered with only a handful of bad reactions reported, it's not really a crap shoot at all.  NOT getting a vaccine?  THAT's the crap shoot.   You have no way of knowing how the virus will impact you but way, way, way, way more people who get the virus are dying than people who get the vaccine.  You've got it backwards, friend.

It's a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned because I don't want someone shooting that crap into my body.  I'm sure millions of others may feel the same.  But, I'm talking about me, not 50 million other people who got the vaccine and are doing just fine.  That's their concern, not mine.  I'm not a heath care worker, or food service worker, or any other kind of essential worker that needs to be on-site for their job.  I've been working from home for a year.  I live alone.  I've been following the guidelines.  So far what I've been doing has been 100% effective.  You can't say that about any vaccine.  This isn't a one size fits all type of situation, so lets try to have a little respect for individuals and the choices they decided to make for themselves.  I don't need someone cramming statistics down my throat and telling me I've got it backwards, so just knock it off.

I'm not cramming anything down anyone's throat.  Maybe try decaf and lighten up Francis. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 03:10:24 PM

Yeah, last I checked the odds on a crap shoot weren't 98% in the player's favor either.


Back to being out...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 04, 2021, 02:14:07 PM

It's a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned because I don't want someone shooting that crap into my body.  I'm sure millions of others may feel the same.  But, I'm talking about me, not 50 million other people who got the vaccine and are doing just fine.  That's their concern, not mine.  I'm not a heath care worker, or food service worker, or any other kind of essential worker that needs to be on-site for their job.  I've been working from home for a year.  I live alone.  I've been following the guidelines.  So far what I've been doing has been 100% effective.  You can't say that about any vaccine.  This isn't a one size fits all type of situation, so lets try to have a little respect for individuals and the choices they decided to make for themselves.  I don't need someone cramming statistics down my throat and telling me I've got it backwards, so just knock it off.

That "crap" may actually save the lives of people you care about.  However, if your rationale is that you are going to continue social distancing and take precautions instead of getting the vaccine, then I can't find any argument against that.  It's your body, your choice.  I just hope people make educated choices and if you choose to keep doing what your doing and hold off the vaccine, so be it.  However, when you call the vaccine crap or make other statements that make little sense, that's the type of stuff that will get called out.  I'm personally not one to force things onto someone, but I will try to educate if I can.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on March 04, 2021, 03:22:11 PM

My Walgreens emailed me and said they had limited vaccines available and to sign up. I signed in to my account, said in an essential worker (I work in a grocery store) and selected that I am classified as obese (I’m like 6ft 3 and 320ish pounds) turns out I qualify under Minnesota guidance.

I get my first shot on Sunday and go back in April for the second. I’m very excited

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 04, 2021, 03:28:45 PM

Quote from: SystematicThought on March 04, 2021, 03:22:11 PM

My Walgreens emailed me and said they had limited vaccines available and to sign up. I signed in to my account, said in an essential worker (I work in a grocery store) and selected that I am classified as obese (I’m like 6ft 3 and 320ish pounds) turns out I qualify under Minnesota guidance.

I get my first shot on Sunday and go back in April for the second. I’m very excited

Awesome man... Walgreens is just crushing it. I was in and out in half an hour, and that was with the 15 minutes waiting for possible reactions..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 04, 2021, 04:14:10 PM

Walgreens here in NYC are only giving the shots to people 65 and older, wish they would expand the legibility already so that my mother can take it (she's only 55).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on March 04, 2021, 04:36:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 04, 2021, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 04, 2021, 02:14:07 PM

It's a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned because I don't want someone shooting that crap into my body.  I'm sure millions of others may feel the same.  But, I'm talking about me, not 50 million other people who got the vaccine and are doing just fine.  That's their concern, not mine.  I'm not a heath care worker, or food service worker, or any other kind of essential worker that needs to be on-site for their job.  I've been working from home for a year.  I live alone.  I've been following the guidelines.  So far what I've been doing has been 100% effective.  You can't say that about any vaccine.  This isn't a one size fits all type of situation, so lets try to have a little respect for individuals and the choices they decided to make for themselves.  I don't need someone cramming statistics down my throat and telling me I've got it backwards, so just knock it off.

That "crap" may actually save the lives of people you care about.  However, if your rationale is that you are going to continue social distancing and take precautions instead of getting the vaccine, then I can't find any argument against that.  It's your body, your choice.  I just hope people make educated choices and if you choose to keep doing what your doing and hold off the vaccine, so be it.  However, when you call the vaccine crap or make other statements that make little sense, that's the type of stuff that will get called out.  I'm personally not one to force things onto someone, but I will try to educate if I can.

This is my posture as well with certain family who are set against it for whatever reason. Getting the vaccine soon too? Cool, can't wait to see you without a mask on. Not getting the vaccine? That's fine too, I look forward too seeing you when cases drop to some negligible number, and if there's some reason why I HAVE to see you before that, I'll be wearing a mask, mainly to protect YOU.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 04, 2021, 05:17:29 PM

Quote from: Skeever on March 04, 2021, 04:36:12 PM

I'll be wearing a mask, mainly to protect YOU.

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_8791_1402240131.jpeg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 04, 2021, 09:29:55 PM

Not to deviate from this current discussion, but I think whatever we got to do to get kids back in the classroom, full time, in the fall, we gotta do that (elementary students, anyway). I don't care if that means shutting down all restaurants, bars, gyms, concerts, sporting events, and movie theaters for 5 years (with apologies to those employed in such industries). Thinking young kids will go 18 months without setting foot in school with their friends is mind-blowing. I recognize I have a dual-vested interest in this, being a dad and a spouse of a teacher. We have skated by without Covid affecting us much, and we realize how lucky we are, when we talk with other working parents struggling to arrange and pay for care for their kids while they distance learn.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 06:49:35 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 04, 2021, 09:29:55 PM

Not to deviate from this current discussion, but I think whatever we got to do to get kids back in the classroom, full time, in the fall, we gotta do that (elementary students, anyway). I don't care if that means shutting down all restaurants, bars, gyms, concerts, sporting events, and movie theaters for 5 years (with apologies to those employed in such industries). Thinking young kids will go 18 months without setting foot in school with their friends is mind-blowing. I recognize I have a dual-vested interest in this, being a dad and a spouse of a teacher. We have skated by without Covid affecting us much, and we realize how lucky we are, when we talk with other working parents struggling to arrange and pay for care for their kids while they distance learn.

100% agreed. They're already putting the ball in motion here in CA, what's progress like in WA?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 05, 2021, 07:01:49 AM

Yeah, I saw CA was reserving doses specifically for school staff and teachers. I haven't heard much from other states but I agree. For the next 4-5 months the concentration should be on how to get schools fully opened again. With vaccination production ramping up, everything else will fall into place. That is, unless reopening too early causes another outbreak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 05, 2021, 07:10:49 AM

I've said before, but nothing has really changed:  my 13-year old hasn't learned a damn thing in 12 months.  He needs to be in school.



EDIT: We need to decide what it is we want to accomplish.   Someone, I think it was Bosk, said that the original focus was on not taxing our health care/hospital system.  Fair enough.  I get that when the hospital system was on the verge of collapsing.   But now we've morphed to "achieving herd immunity" and "opening our schools".   The current program of "first responders/old people/compromised people" isn't optimum for that changed focus.   If we're really worried about herd immunity or schools, my parents - as much as I love them and fear for their safety - ought to be WAYYYYYYY down the list.   My parents haven't been in contact with a kid under the age of 17 in years.... since my daughter and my two nephews were under the age of 17, to be precise.  They are not the people spreading this virus, and they are not the people that are going to get the most bang for the buck in terms of getting R below 1.   

Teachers ought to be higher.  College students ought to be higher.   Someone like Cram, who is not perhaps "front line" but is essential and whose job requires in-person, face-to-face contact, ought to be higher.  Fuck, even the cable guy ought to be higher.   Bank tellers; grocery store employees; toll collectors; janitors; rail-line conductors; flight attendants.   To the extent they are not, they ought to be first on the list, IF our goal is herd immunity and open schools.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Prog Snob on March 05, 2021, 07:14:00 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 04, 2021, 09:29:55 PM

Not to deviate from this current discussion, but I think whatever we got to do to get kids back in the classroom, full time, in the fall, we gotta do that (elementary students, anyway). I don't care if that means shutting down all restaurants, bars, gyms, concerts, sporting events, and movie theaters for 5 years (with apologies to those employed in such industries). Thinking young kids will go 18 months without setting foot in school with their friends is mind-blowing. I recognize I have a dual-vested interest in this, being a dad and a spouse of a teacher. We have skated by without Covid affecting us much, and we realize how lucky we are, when we talk with other working parents struggling to arrange and pay for care for their kids while they distance learn.

That's something which has been worrisome for me. My daughter, who's 11, is autistic, so this last year has almost been a complete waste for her. In and out of school numerous times because someone in the school wound up having Covid. She can't do remote learning for long because she can't sit there for hours in front of screen. Her mind wanders. I bought a math workbook just to work with her to keep her mind going. She likes to read so I gave her a couple of books above her reading level just to familiarize her with something new. One thing I don't have to worry about is her memory. She absorbs things unbelievably.

One example - she went through this phase where she was looking at images of flags from different countries on Google Images. One day we were watching some metal videos on YouTube. She likes a lot of the same stuff I do. We were watching Amaranthe's video for 82nd All the Way and it comes to the part where Henrik is waving the Swedish flag back and forth. My daughter looks at me and says, "Daddy, why are they playing with the Swedish flag?" It just blew my mind. Same thing with Manowar's Warriors of the World video. With all of the flags in the audience, she could name the country for each.

I hope she, and all of these others kids, can get back into gear and eventually make up for all of that lost time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 07:24:43 AM

Close attention will have to be paid in the coming years to assure there are no long term affects from this missing year on this generation as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 05, 2021, 08:14:50 AM

a priority list as a means of giving out the vaccine is important, there needs to be organizing principle but what's more important is just getting the thing into as many people as possible as quickly possible so I don't quibble with who gets what first, who cuts in line here and there,  as long people GET IT.  Just my 2 cents.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 05, 2021, 08:19:51 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 05, 2021, 08:14:50 AM

a priority list as a means of giving out the vaccine is important, there needs to be organizing principle but what's more important is just getting the thing into as many people as possible as quickly possible so I don't quibble with who gets what first, who cuts in line here and there,  as long people GET IT.  Just my 2 cents.

So you want people to do what you want, but you don't want to 'cater to' basic civil behavior like Stadler listed out in the P/R section. That isn't fair.

For the record, I agree, as long as people get it, whatever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 05, 2021, 09:19:33 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 05, 2021, 08:19:51 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 05, 2021, 08:14:50 AM

a priority list as a means of giving out the vaccine is important, there needs to be organizing principle but what's more important is just getting the thing into as many people as possible as quickly possible so I don't quibble with who gets what first, who cuts in line here and there,  as long people GET IT.  Just my 2 cents.

So you want people to do what you want, but you don't want to 'cater to' basic civil behavior like Stadler listed out in the P/R section. That isn't fair.

For the record, I agree, as long as people get it, whatever.

That's not what I took out of his comment at all.  I took him to mean people shouldn't lose their shit if/when someone *not* on some kind of priority list happens to get vaccinated for whatever reason (eg, a vax site has a surplus at the end of the day, or certain states/regions/counties are at different paces than others)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 05, 2021, 09:24:09 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 05, 2021, 07:10:49 AM

I've said before, but nothing has really changed:  my 13-year old hasn't learned a damn thing in 12 months.  He needs to be in school.



EDIT: We need to decide what it is we want to accomplish.   Someone, I think it was Bosk, said that the original focus was on not taxing our health care/hospital system.  Fair enough.  I get that when the hospital system was on the verge of collapsing.   But now we've morphed to "achieving herd immunity" and "opening our schools".   The current program of "first responders/old people/compromised people" isn't optimum for that changed focus.   If we're really worried about herd immunity or schools, my parents - as much as I love them and fear for their safety - ought to be WAYYYYYYY down the list.   My parents haven't been in contact with a kid under the age of 17 in years.... since my daughter and my two nephews were under the age of 17, to be precise.  They are not the people spreading this virus, and they are not the people that are going to get the most bang for the buck in terms of getting R below 1.   

Teachers ought to be higher.  College students ought to be higher.   Someone like Cram, who is not perhaps "front line" but is essential and whose job requires in-person, face-to-face contact, ought to be higher.  Fuck, even the cable guy ought to be higher.   Bank tellers; grocery store employees; toll collectors; janitors; rail-line conductors; flight attendants.   To the extent they are not, they ought to be first on the list, IF our goal is herd immunity and open schools.

I couldn't agree more.  Having age be the only qualifier as to prioritization is bass ackwards.  Yes, the elderly and LTC residents are/were important because of the death rate.  But once you get down under 60-65, there needs to be a different set of measurements to prioritize.  What you've listed is spot on.  I too, should be WAY DOWN the list - work from home, only need to go out for essential purposes (like 1-2 times per week).  My kids - who could/will be on campus come September - better damn well be eligible before a lot more people.  I think the education system (staff and students) should be one of the next groups of people to be getting pricked.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 05, 2021, 09:27:20 AM

And for the record, I don't care who gets it as long as SOMEONE gets it.  I'm of the opinion that we should give them to our cats if it means not wasting a single shot (I'm kidding).   I wish there was a LITTLE more organization to that "overflow" system - it seems a little bootleg to me at this point - but I'm of the opinion that whatever system gets the most shots distributed the quickest is the system to use.

But if we ARE going to have an agenda and a priority, the two should match.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:12:40 AM

Honestly I think I'm a few weeks the conversation will switch from prioritization to delivery, as the stockpile goes up, it's more a manner of how to get the product into as many arms as possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 05, 2021, 10:17:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:12:40 AM

Honestly I think I'm a few weeks the conversation will switch from prioritization to delivery, as the stockpile goes up, it's more a manner of how to get the product into as many arms as possible.

whatever issues you are experiencing america is doing a little bit better than us in canada on this front so far, so good on ya  :tup.  Up here projections for when the optimal target of  delivered vaccines will be reached are in the fall, although that could change quickly as different vaccine approvals come in so here's hoping

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 10:18:23 AM

I've been reading some things regarding my alma mater and that it seems a lot of schools are preparing for normal in person activities come the fall.  By May the vaccines should be available to everyone, so this prioritization stuff is going to be a moot point in a couple months.  I get the feeling that regardless of how effective the vaccinations will be (I personally expect them to be effective in stopping deaths, but covid isn't going to go away), people are going to really push for normalization of things come the fall.  Getting kids back to school is definitely a priority IMO. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2021, 10:31:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 10:18:23 AM

By May the vaccines should be available to everyone, so this prioritization stuff is going to be a moot point in a couple months. 

Perhaps.  But in the mean time, we still have record youth suicide rates, and we still have owners and employees of small businesses in serious financial situations with their lives being all but ruined, as a direct result of misprioritization that is keeping kids out of school and small businesses that can operate safely closed down.  And here in California, we have several counties that, going by infection rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates, should be open that are still locked down because our state came up with this crazy "equity" system that basically says, "even if in the aggregate, the numbers are exactly where they should be, if the county cannot provide hard data that people of traditionally 'repressed' races/groups don't have the right numbers within those groups, your county cannot move back into a 'safe' tier."  It is maddening to see how his has been mishandled, and the impact that mismanagement continues to have, especially when some of these problems should be so easily avoidable by anyone willing to think things through in a sane way. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: PetFish on March 05, 2021, 10:35:48 AM

I love this one:

 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

(https://preview.redd.it/86qwm0kdjey41.jpg?auto=webp&s=de6b71b989f181feca5ae6a01ffd37474c7e7f34)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 05, 2021, 10:36:02 AM

Well, my doctor's office at Beth Israel Hospital in Boston just texted me and invited me to apply for approval for the vaccine since I have 2 "comorbidities" which are "history of smoking" and "pulmonary hypertension" so I might be scheduled for the shot pretty soon.  Hope it's the J&J so I can be one and done

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2021, 10:39:28 AM

Nice!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 05, 2021, 10:42:48 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 05, 2021, 10:31:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 10:18:23 AM

By May the vaccines should be available to everyone, so this prioritization stuff is going to be a moot point in a couple months. 

Perhaps.  But in the mean time, we still have record youth suicide rates, and we still have owners and employees of small businesses in serious financial situations with their lives being all but ruined, as a direct result of misprioritization that is keeping kids out of school and small businesses that can operate safely closed down.  And here in California, we have several counties that, going by infection rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates, should be open that are still locked down because our state came up with this crazy "equity" system that basically says, "even if in the aggregate, the numbers are exactly where they should be, if the county cannot provide hard data that people of traditionally 'repressed' races/groups don't have the right numbers within those groups, your county cannot move back into a 'safe' tier."  It is maddening to see how his has been mishandled, and the impact that mismanagement continues to have, especially when some of these problems should be so easily avoidable by anyone willing to think things through in a sane way.

That's completely whacked, how can they even expect every county in the state to have that data, especially right now where everyone's working remotely?  That's misguided at best  :facepalm: 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:51:24 AM

Great to hear Barry!!

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 05, 2021, 10:17:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:12:40 AM

Honestly I think I'm a few weeks the conversation will switch from prioritization to delivery, as the stockpile goes up, it's more a manner of how to get the product into as many arms as possible.

whatever issues you are experiencing america is doing a little bit better than us in canada on this front so far, so good on ya  :tup.  Up here projections for when the optimal target of  delivered vaccines will be reached are in the fall, although that could change quickly as different vaccine approvals come in so here's hoping

Refreshing to hear were leading someone on a positive metric for a change when it comes to this thing  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 05, 2021, 10:52:28 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 05, 2021, 10:31:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 10:18:23 AM

By May the vaccines should be available to everyone, so this prioritization stuff is going to be a moot point in a couple months. 

Perhaps.  But in the mean time, we still have record youth suicide rates, and we still have owners and employees of small businesses in serious financial situations with their lives being all but ruined, as a direct result of misprioritization that is keeping kids out of school and small businesses that can operate safely closed down.  And here in California, we have several counties that, going by infection rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates, should be open that are still locked down because our state came up with this crazy "equity" system that basically says, "even if in the aggregate, the numbers are exactly where they should be, if the county cannot provide hard data that people of traditionally 'repressed' races/groups don't have the right numbers within those groups, your county cannot move back into a 'safe' tier."  It is maddening to see how his has been mishandled, and the impact that mismanagement continues to have, especially when some of these problems should be so easily avoidable by anyone willing to think things through in a sane way.

Our Governor had lawsuits against her, From the rural counties with small populations and small businesses. And, there is silence on those, and I think they settled and she ended up creating a new color from the Red to Green she originally had, the color introduced was...Turquoise.

I'll post the news story's that timeline it all on the political thread.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2021, 10:59:37 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 05, 2021, 10:42:48 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 05, 2021, 10:31:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 10:18:23 AM

By May the vaccines should be available to everyone, so this prioritization stuff is going to be a moot point in a couple months. 

Perhaps.  But in the mean time, we still have record youth suicide rates, and we still have owners and employees of small businesses in serious financial situations with their lives being all but ruined, as a direct result of misprioritization that is keeping kids out of school and small businesses that can operate safely closed down.  And here in California, we have several counties that, going by infection rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates, should be open that are still locked down because our state came up with this crazy "equity" system that basically says, "even if in the aggregate, the numbers are exactly where they should be, if the county cannot provide hard data that people of traditionally 'repressed' races/groups don't have the right numbers within those groups, your county cannot move back into a 'safe' tier."  It is maddening to see how his has been mishandled, and the impact that mismanagement continues to have, especially when some of these problems should be so easily avoidable by anyone willing to think things through in a sane way.

That's completely whacked, how can they even expect every county in the state to have that data, especially right now where everyone's working remotely?  That's misguided at best  :facepalm: 

EXACTLY.  Even where the data is likely favorable, counties cannot collect and produce that data as a practical matter.  So the result is that they have to remain closed. 

Not to get too political, but:  As a general matter, I think the recall process is kinda dumb.  There will ALWAYS be groups that dislike any given governor and scream about how he/she should be removed.  I'm of the opinion that if you don't like who is in power, you still suck it up, cast your vote next time it is your turn, and move on with life.  That said, I don't think it is any surprise that the Recall Newsome movement has pretty huge movement, and appears very likely to be successful.  And I have to say, I'm all in favor.  I only wish it could and would be used more for those in the Legislature that actually make these laws in the first place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 11:03:37 AM

People are starting to get the J&J vaccine today in NJ.  This is a game changer for speeding up vaccinations  :yarr

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 11:06:41 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 11:03:37 AM

People are starting to get the J&J vaccine today in NJ.  This is a game changer for speeding up vaccinations  :yarr

Awesome.. Hopefully there's zero reports of reactions like with the others, so they can stray away from the 15 minute waiting period after for it. That alone would speed it up exponentially

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 05, 2021, 12:05:06 PM

Just saw that a million people here in North Carolina have now been fully vaccinated (both shots).  That's just over 11% of our population.  Incredibly good news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 05, 2021, 12:16:24 PM

Warmer weather is going to be spreading north too as the days pass and that will help diminish the spread like it did last summer so I'm really hoping that by mid-to-late summer we've achieved herd immunity.  That's ball game, folks.  Once you're there it can't spread rampantly anymore as long as the breakouts are swatted down immediately and contract-tracing and quarantine protocols are observed.  This pandemic will end, but Covid-19 will probably be with us for many more years to come, just not killing thousands of people every day.  We have descendents of the H1N1 Spanish Flu from 1918 with us today.  Covid-19 will be around probably for the rest of all of our lives.  But the good news is the medicines will get better and better over time, making it less and less lethal as the years go by. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 05, 2021, 12:24:32 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 05, 2021, 09:24:09 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 05, 2021, 07:10:49 AM

I've said before, but nothing has really changed:  my 13-year old hasn't learned a damn thing in 12 months.  He needs to be in school.



EDIT: We need to decide what it is we want to accomplish.   Someone, I think it was Bosk, said that the original focus was on not taxing our health care/hospital system.  Fair enough.  I get that when the hospital system was on the verge of collapsing.   But now we've morphed to "achieving herd immunity" and "opening our schools".   The current program of "first responders/old people/compromised people" isn't optimum for that changed focus.   If we're really worried about herd immunity or schools, my parents - as much as I love them and fear for their safety - ought to be WAYYYYYYY down the list.   My parents haven't been in contact with a kid under the age of 17 in years.... since my daughter and my two nephews were under the age of 17, to be precise.  They are not the people spreading this virus, and they are not the people that are going to get the most bang for the buck in terms of getting R below 1.   

Teachers ought to be higher.  College students ought to be higher.   Someone like Cram, who is not perhaps "front line" but is essential and whose job requires in-person, face-to-face contact, ought to be higher.  Fuck, even the cable guy ought to be higher.   Bank tellers; grocery store employees; toll collectors; janitors; rail-line conductors; flight attendants.   To the extent they are not, they ought to be first on the list, IF our goal is herd immunity and open schools.

I couldn't agree more.  Having age be the only qualifier as to prioritization is bass ackwards.  Yes, the elderly and LTC residents are/were important because of the death rate.  But once you get down under 60-65, there needs to be a different set of measurements to prioritize.  What you've listed is spot on.  I too, should be WAY DOWN the list - work from home, only need to go out for essential purposes (like 1-2 times per week).  My kids - who could/will be on campus come September - better damn well be eligible before a lot more people.  I think the education system (staff and students) should be one of the next groups of people to be getting pricked.

i'm starting to think that this should be the approach. A smart, diversified analysis of where contagions most happen, and intervene there. I mean, it's sacrosant to protect first the medical personell and the most elder and frail, but if kids going to school and workers taking public transport spread the. virus around, maybe it's better to focus on them. Especially in the big cities, in small town you can go on an age basis, but in big towns you have to protect first the ones most likely to get the virus and spread it around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 05, 2021, 12:44:01 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:51:24 AM

Great to hear Barry!!

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 05, 2021, 10:17:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:12:40 AM

Honestly I think I'm a few weeks the conversation will switch from prioritization to delivery, as the stockpile goes up, it's more a manner of how to get the product into as many arms as possible.

whatever issues you are experiencing america is doing a little bit better than us in canada on this front so far, so good on ya  :tup.  Up here projections for when the optimal target of  delivered vaccines will be reached are in the fall, although that could change quickly as different vaccine approvals come in so here's hoping

Refreshing to hear were leading someone on a positive metric for a change when it comes to this thing  :lol

Yeah... y'all may have cluster fucked the response to the virus, but your vaccine game has been pretty on point.  Hard to believe Canada said "hold my beer" when it came time to address vaccinations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 05, 2021, 12:44:01 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:51:24 AM

Great to hear Barry!!

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 05, 2021, 10:17:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 10:12:40 AM

Honestly I think I'm a few weeks the conversation will switch from prioritization to delivery, as the stockpile goes up, it's more a manner of how to get the product into as many arms as possible.

whatever issues you are experiencing america is doing a little bit better than us in canada on this front so far, so good on ya  :tup.  Up here projections for when the optimal target of  delivered vaccines will be reached are in the fall, although that could change quickly as different vaccine approvals come in so here's hoping

Refreshing to hear were leading someone on a positive metric for a change when it comes to this thing  :lol

Yeah... y'all may have cluster fucked the response to the virus, but your vaccine game has been pretty on point.  Hard to believe Canada said "hold my beer" when it came time to address vaccinations.

*smugly exists halfway vaccinated*

 :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 05, 2021, 02:11:18 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/japan-supercomputer-shows-doubling-masks-042240894.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/japan-supercomputer-shows-doubling-masks-042240894.html)

Quote

Using a single surgical-type mask, made of non-woven material, had 85% effectiveness in blocking particles when worn tightly around the nose and face. Adding a polyurethane mask on top boosted the effectiveness to just 89%.

Wearing two non-woven masks isn't useful because air resistance builds up and causes leakage around the edges.

"The performance of double masking simply does not add up," wrote the researchers, led by Makoto Tsubokura.

In general, professional grade N95 masks were the best in protecting against infection, followed by non-woven masks, cloth masks, and finally polyurethane types, the study showed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 05, 2021, 04:02:23 PM

Welp, spoke to my doctor today. My county (or is it the entire state?) Is opening up Vaccinations for people with a wider variety of health issues, including obesity. I'm... Right at the cutoff. Like... A good meal or a good shit could mean the difference in my BMI. My doctor is going to give me whatever paperwork or whatever the county says is needed to get it next week. I was originally wanting to hold off on getting it... Because I figured being fat was a bullshit excuse to get it... But my Dr really thinks I should get it. So wish me luck on getting an appt when they open it to me!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 05, 2021, 05:17:30 PM

Quote from: Prog Snob on March 05, 2021, 07:14:00 AM

One example - she went through this phase where she was looking at images of flags from different countries on Google Images. One day we were watching some metal videos on YouTube. She likes a lot of the same stuff I do. We were watching Amaranthe's video for 82nd All the Way and it comes to the part where Henrik is waving the Swedish flag back and forth. My daughter looks at me and says, "Daddy, why are they playing with the Swedish flag?" It just blew my mind. Same thing with Manowar's Warriors of the World video. With all of the flags in the audience, she could name the country for each.

That's awesome, and I can totally appreciate and understand this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 05, 2021, 05:43:21 PM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 05, 2021, 04:02:23 PM

Welp, spoke to my doctor today. My county (or is it the entire state?) Is opening up Vaccinations for people with a wider variety of health issues, including obesity. I'm... Right at the cutoff. Like... A good meal or a good shit could mean the difference in my BMI. My doctor is going to give me whatever paperwork or whatever the county says is needed to get it next week. I was originally wanting to hold off on getting it... Because I figured being fat was a bullshit excuse to get it... But my Dr really thinks I should get it. So wish me luck on getting an appt when they open it to me!

I say always follow the doc's advice man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 05, 2021, 07:50:42 PM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 05, 2021, 04:02:23 PM

Welp, spoke to my doctor today. My county (or is it the entire state?) Is opening up Vaccinations for people with a wider variety of health issues, including obesity. I'm... Right at the cutoff. Like... A good meal or a good shit could mean the difference in my BMI. My doctor is going to give me whatever paperwork or whatever the county says is needed to get it next week. I was originally wanting to hold off on getting it... Because I figured being fat was a bullshit excuse to get it... But my Dr really thinks I should get it. So wish me luck on getting an appt when they open it to me!

Sounds like a weekends worth of 5 Guys is in order.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 05, 2021, 08:04:27 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 05, 2021, 07:50:42 PM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 05, 2021, 04:02:23 PM

Welp, spoke to my doctor today. My county (or is it the entire state?) Is opening up Vaccinations for people with a wider variety of health issues, including obesity. I'm... Right at the cutoff. Like... A good meal or a good shit could mean the difference in my BMI. My doctor is going to give me whatever paperwork or whatever the county says is needed to get it next week. I was originally wanting to hold off on getting it... Because I figured being fat was a bullshit excuse to get it... But my Dr really thinks I should get it. So wish me luck on getting an appt when they open it to me!

Sounds like a weekends worth of 5 Guys is in order.

Yeah, and whatever you do, don't take a shit!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 05, 2021, 09:33:13 PM

Looking at my chart....adding half a pound bumped me over into eligibility 😂

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on March 06, 2021, 06:55:22 PM

I'm eligible too. I don't really get why, but I didn't question it when the super site said I could book an appointment. Anyway, just got pricked with my 2nd dose of Pfizer. Everything's good except now I'm not sure what I need to do to turn off the Cortana that won't shut up in my head.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SystematicThought on March 07, 2021, 01:23:18 PM

Got the first shot at Walgreens today. Pfizer. So far, my arm just is sore like with the flu shot. Walgreens must operate off of federal guidelines because I’m a grocery store employee here in Minnesota and not eligible by MN guidelines, but was eligible at Walgreens

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 08, 2021, 07:22:41 AM

My wife and I will both be eligible beginning March 24th.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 07:44:49 AM

Went on at 7:00 to get my parents signed up; their county was 97% booked by 7:39; from about 7:45 to about 8:10 it sat at "Less than 1%".  I got an "invite" to sign up then, but was given only five locations, only one in their county, and four of the five had a note saying "All available spots are currently being scheduled".  The one that wasn't was two counties north (an hour and a half drive).  I clicked on it and when it gave me the drop box to pick a time, it said "no times available". 

 :tdwn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 08, 2021, 07:49:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 07:44:49 AM

Went on at 7:00 to get my parents signed up; their county was 97% booked by 7:39; from about 7:45 to about 8:10 it sat at "Less than 1%".  I got an "invite" to sign up then, but was given only five locations, only one in their county, and four of the five had a note saying "All available spots are currently being scheduled".  The one that wasn't was two counties north (an hour and a half drive).  I clicked on it and when it gave me the drop box to pick a time, it said "no times available". 

 :tdwn

My parents struggled getting there's as well. Are your folks in CT too?

My father was able to set up his first shot, but my mother couldn't get a slot. She went with my dad anyway and stayed in the car when he went in. My dad asked if there was any way she could get one too since she was outside, and the nurse/Dr./shot administrator said something along the lines of "we've had so many people coming in trying to fake their age, we have a bunch of extra doses. Tell her to come on in". So she was able to get the first shot as well. You're parents might have some luck just going to a facility toward the end of the day and just asking if they have any that are going to get tossed that they could get instead. I've heard a number of stories from CT with people having success doing that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 08, 2021, 07:52:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 07:44:49 AM

Went on at 7:00 to get my parents signed up; their county was 97% booked by 7:39; from about 7:45 to about 8:10 it sat at "Less than 1%".  I got an "invite" to sign up then, but was given only five locations, only one in their county, and four of the five had a note saying "All available spots are currently being scheduled".  The one that wasn't was two counties north (an hour and a half drive).  I clicked on it and when it gave me the drop box to pick a time, it said "no times available". 

 :tdwn

I don't know the System for FL, but for the Javit Center in NYC, they drop appointments regularly as cancellations come in and spots open up. It's all luck really.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 08, 2021, 08:01:27 AM

Finally got the call to move up my 1st shot. It's tomorrow.   Then the 2nd shot April 6th.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 08:38:26 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 08, 2021, 07:49:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 07:44:49 AM

Went on at 7:00 to get my parents signed up; their county was 97% booked by 7:39; from about 7:45 to about 8:10 it sat at "Less than 1%".  I got an "invite" to sign up then, but was given only five locations, only one in their county, and four of the five had a note saying "All available spots are currently being scheduled".  The one that wasn't was two counties north (an hour and a half drive).  I clicked on it and when it gave me the drop box to pick a time, it said "no times available". 

 :tdwn

My parents struggled getting there's as well. Are your folks in CT too?

My father was able to set up his first shot, but my mother couldn't get a slot. She went with my dad anyway and stayed in the car when he went in. My dad asked if there was any way she could get one too since she was outside, and the nurse/Dr./shot administrator said something along the lines of "we've had so many people coming in trying to fake their age, we have a bunch of extra doses. Tell her to come on in". So she was able to get the first shot as well. You're parents might have some luck just going to a facility toward the end of the day and just asking if they have any that are going to get tossed that they could get instead. I've heard a number of stories from CT with people having success doing that.

No, they're in Florida.   I'd like them to do just that with the Publix near them; just show up around 8:30 (when the pharmacy closes) but that has it's own problems.  :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 08, 2021, 08:47:02 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Shit man.  Guess the rest of the household is bound to be positive too.  Hopefully all turns out just as it did for the gmiller family.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 09:34:14 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

It does. Hopefully no big symptoms for you and your folks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 08, 2021, 09:44:05 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 08, 2021, 08:47:02 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Shit man.  Guess the rest of the household is bound to be positive too.  Hopefully all turns out just as it did for the gmiller family.

Yeah....man, this is a bummer. I do hope you (and if your family gets it) just have mild symptoms and get through it quickly.

I will tell you this as far as what I did. I stayed hydrated to the point of where I didn't want to drink water but I did. And every other glass I mixed up a vitamin C packet mix into the water. I'm not a doctor....didn't get the advice to do it....I just wanted to make sure I was hydrated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 08, 2021, 09:49:42 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Aw, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 08, 2021, 10:41:26 AM

https://www.foxnews.com/health/new-covid-19-pill-virus-trials-dr-siegel


Not sure if this has been posted. Too busy at work to read through. Could be great news.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 08, 2021, 10:47:31 AM

Quote from: emtee on March 08, 2021, 10:41:26 AM

https://www.foxnews.com/health/new-covid-19-pill-virus-trials-dr-siegel


Not sure if this has been posted. Too busy at work to read through. Could be great news.

That would be very cool.

Those comments though!  :lolpalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 08, 2021, 10:55:35 AM

Sorry if it offends anyone (seriously), but this doesn't just sound great, it literally sounds too good to be true.  I'll wait until someone other than Fox News reports it and can verify it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 08, 2021, 10:58:27 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 08, 2021, 10:55:35 AM

Sorry if it offends anyone (seriously), but this doesn't just sound great, it literally sounds too good to be true.  I'll wait until someone other than Fox News reports it and can verify it.

Here's an article from Merck  (https://www.merck.com/news/ridgeback-biotherapeutics-and-merck-announce-preliminary-findings-from-a-phase-2a-trial-of-investigational-covid-19-therapeutic-molnupiravir/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 08, 2021, 10:59:23 AM

tl;dr version: it's legit

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 11:15:10 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

I'm sorry I didn't see this when I posted; I didn't mean to be insensitive by seeming to ignore you.  Good luck and take care of yourself.   Fingers crossed for a speedy recovery.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 08, 2021, 11:15:52 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 08, 2021, 07:52:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 07:44:49 AM

Went on at 7:00 to get my parents signed up; their county was 97% booked by 7:39; from about 7:45 to about 8:10 it sat at "Less than 1%".  I got an "invite" to sign up then, but was given only five locations, only one in their county, and four of the five had a note saying "All available spots are currently being scheduled".  The one that wasn't was two counties north (an hour and a half drive).  I clicked on it and when it gave me the drop box to pick a time, it said "no times available". 

 :tdwn

I don't know the System for FL, but for the Javit Center in NYC, they drop appointments regularly as cancellations come in and spots open up. It's all luck really.

My sister got her first shot at the Javits center, said it was an extremely efficient well oiled machine over there. 

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Damn, hopefully you all don't get it too bad and recover soon enough.

Quote from: emtee on March 08, 2021, 10:41:26 AM

https://www.foxnews.com/health/new-covid-19-pill-virus-trials-dr-siegel


Not sure if this has been posted. Too busy at work to read through. Could be great news.

Yea, this sounds like great news.  Hopefully continues to be positive as they continue trials.

Now that NJ has opened up a little bit, my brother and his gf went to a NJ Devils hockey game last week.  They sat next to a cardboard cut out  :lol I keep reading more and more about opening everything back up by memorial day.  Would be fantastic if we got this under control by then. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 11:19:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 08, 2021, 08:47:02 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Shit man.  Guess the rest of the household is bound to be positive too.  Hopefully all turns out just as it did for the gmiller family.

Let's hope so.

Quote from: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 09:34:14 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

It does. Hopefully no big symptoms for you and your folks.

I've been having a sore throat and tiredness for the past few days but I hope that's all for me.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 08, 2021, 09:44:05 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 08, 2021, 08:47:02 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Shit man.  Guess the rest of the household is bound to be positive too.  Hopefully all turns out just as it did for the gmiller family.

Yeah....man, this is a bummer. I do hope you (and if your family gets it) just have mild symptoms and get through it quickly.

I will tell you this as far as what I did. I stayed hydrated to the point of where I didn't want to drink water but I did. And every other glass I mixed up a vitamin C packet mix into the water. I'm not a doctor....didn't get the advice to do it....I just wanted to make sure I was hydrated.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 08, 2021, 09:49:42 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Aw, man.

Yup :sadpanda:

Quote from: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 11:15:10 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

I'm sorry I didn't see this when I posted; I didn't mean to be insensitive by seeming to ignore you.  Good luck and take care of yourself.   Fingers crossed for a speedy recovery.

It's ok, thanks.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 08, 2021, 11:15:52 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 08:37:57 AM

Welp, I've just tested positive. And I'm living with my family. This sucks.

Damn, hopefully you all don't get it too bad and recover soon enough.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 11:57:39 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 11:19:55 AM

I've been having a sore throat and tiredness for the past few days but I hope that's all for me.

It can kinda get a little weird even with the mild symptoms. I had a hard time eating meat for the past ~1,5 weeks, all meat has this sickly sweet rotting scent (pork/beef is especially bad, chicken/turkey is bearable but still unpleasant). I've never experienced anything like that in 28 years and I can't say for sure, but I suspect the fact that I had Covid is to blame here. Hopefully it'll pass soon.

Get well, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 08, 2021, 12:25:27 PM

Quote from: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 11:57:39 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 11:19:55 AM

I've been having a sore throat and tiredness for the past few days but I hope that's all for me.

It can kinda get a little weird even with the mild symptoms. I had a hard time eating meat for the past ~1,5 weeks, all meat has this sickly sweet rotting scent (pork/beef is especially bad, chicken/turkey is bearable but still unpleasant). I've never experienced anything like that in 28 years and I can't say for sure, but I suspect the fact that I had Covid is to blame here. Hopefully it'll pass soon.

Get well, man.

I was wondering about your experience. Are you saying you're a covids long-timer? I hope this passes soon.

Sacul,
Here's to a speedy recovery!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 12:33:44 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 08, 2021, 12:25:27 PM

Quote from: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 11:57:39 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 11:19:55 AM

I've been having a sore throat and tiredness for the past few days but I hope that's all for me.

It can kinda get a little weird even with the mild symptoms. I had a hard time eating meat for the past ~1,5 weeks, all meat has this sickly sweet rotting scent (pork/beef is especially bad, chicken/turkey is bearable but still unpleasant). I've never experienced anything like that in 28 years and I can't say for sure, but I suspect the fact that I had Covid is to blame here. Hopefully it'll pass soon.

Get well, man.

I was wondering about your experience. Are you saying you're a covids long-timer? I hope this passes soon.

Not a long-timer, had it in December with mild symptoms. Had a fever and some headaches for a couple of days, was very tired for a week. Lost the sense of smell for a couple of weeks, it gradually returned and all was more or less fine until ~10 days ago when this began.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 08, 2021, 01:06:10 PM

Quote from: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 12:33:44 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 08, 2021, 12:25:27 PM

Quote from: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 11:57:39 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 11:19:55 AM

I've been having a sore throat and tiredness for the past few days but I hope that's all for me.

It can kinda get a little weird even with the mild symptoms. I had a hard time eating meat for the past ~1,5 weeks, all meat has this sickly sweet rotting scent (pork/beef is especially bad, chicken/turkey is bearable but still unpleasant). I've never experienced anything like that in 28 years and I can't say for sure, but I suspect the fact that I had Covid is to blame here. Hopefully it'll pass soon.

Get well, man.

I was wondering about your experience. Are you saying you're a covids long-timer? I hope this passes soon.

Not a long-timer, had it in December with mild symptoms. Had a fever and some headaches for a couple of days, was very tired for a week. Lost the sense of smell for a couple of weeks, it gradually returned and all was more or less fine until ~10 days ago when this began.

Dayum Bro! Sorry to hear that - here's to you feeling better!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Mladen on March 08, 2021, 01:29:23 PM

Chiming in for the first time, because it feels good to be a part of a discussion with people that are aware of the problem and responsible. Unlike plenty of people in my country of Serbia. We've actually had a lot of vaccinations, but two thirds of the population probably do not want to hear a word of it, so if the restrictions do not work out either, we might be screwed for a while.

Got my first shot on Saturday, no side effects. Here's to a smooth second shot.  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 08, 2021, 02:18:19 PM

Quote from: Mladen on March 08, 2021, 01:29:23 PM

Chiming in for the first time, because it feels good to be a part of a discussion with people that are aware of the problem and responsible. Unlike plenty of people in my country of Serbia. We've actually had a lot of vaccinations, but two thirds of the population probably do not want to hear a word of it, so if the restrictions do not work out either, we might be screwed for a while.

Got my first shot on Saturday, no side effects. Here's to a smooth second shot.  :metal

OOC, which vaccine is available over there in Serbia? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 08, 2021, 02:25:07 PM

Sacul, get better my friend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 08, 2021, 02:57:39 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 08, 2021, 10:58:27 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 08, 2021, 10:55:35 AM

Sorry if it offends anyone (seriously), but this doesn't just sound great, it literally sounds too good to be true.  I'll wait until someone other than Fox News reports it and can verify it.

Here's an article from Merck  (https://www.merck.com/news/ridgeback-biotherapeutics-and-merck-announce-preliminary-findings-from-a-phase-2a-trial-of-investigational-covid-19-therapeutic-molnupiravir/)

Thank you.  I now believe.  It's only in stage two trials, but damn, any oral treatment would be great (I always say).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 03:24:26 PM

Quote from: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 12:33:44 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 08, 2021, 12:25:27 PM

Quote from: Evermind on March 08, 2021, 11:57:39 AM

Quote from: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 11:19:55 AM

I've been having a sore throat and tiredness for the past few days but I hope that's all for me.

It can kinda get a little weird even with the mild symptoms. I had a hard time eating meat for the past ~1,5 weeks, all meat has this sickly sweet rotting scent (pork/beef is especially bad, chicken/turkey is bearable but still unpleasant). I've never experienced anything like that in 28 years and I can't say for sure, but I suspect the fact that I had Covid is to blame here. Hopefully it'll pass soon.

Get well, man.

I was wondering about your experience. Are you saying you're a covids long-timer? I hope this passes soon.

Not a long-timer, had it in December with mild symptoms. Had a fever and some headaches for a couple of days, was very tired for a week. Lost the sense of smell for a couple of weeks, it gradually returned and all was more or less fine until ~10 days ago when this began.

I'm sorry; I'm not following.  Are you saying you got it twice, or is this a remnant of December? 

I'm confused.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on March 08, 2021, 06:18:08 PM

My vaccine timeline:

• Sat 9:30am - got my 2nd pfizer dose
• Sun 2am - wake up with some chills
• Sun 6am - kiddo wakes me up, I'm still exhausted, chills and a low fever
• Sun 6:30pm - I go to bed for the NIGHT, feeling like shit, after a day of exhaustion
• Mon 6am - Wake up for work, I feel good but have a bit of a headache still
• Mon 9:30am - Nearly exactly 48 hours after my shot, I am feeling totally fine and then randomly vomit as I'm talking to my wife in what I can only imagine morning sickness to be like
• Mon 8pm - A little tired, but since the vomit, I've felt like a million bucks all day

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 08, 2021, 06:28:12 PM

Quote from: Skeever on March 08, 2021, 06:18:08 PM

My vaccine timeline:

• Sat 9:30am - got my 2nd pfizer dose
• Sun 2am - wake up with some chills
• Sun 6am - kiddo wakes me up, I'm still exhausted, chills and a low fever
• Sun 6:30pm - I go to bed for the NIGHT, feeling like shit, after a day of exhaustion
• Mon 6am - Wake up for work, I feel good but have a bit of a headache still
• Mon 9:30am - Nearly exactly 48 hours after my shot, I am feeling totally fine and then randomly vomit as I'm talking to my wife in what I can only imagine morning sickness to be like
• Mon 8pm - A little tired, but since the vomit, I've felt like a million bucks all day

Get my second Pfizer this coming Wednesday......after having Covid in December I REALLY hope I can dodge the side effects of the vaccine. I know they're over and done in a day or two but I feel like I put my time in  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Sacul on March 08, 2021, 06:48:57 PM

Thanks guys, I hope this only lasts a week or two at most. I'm already on medication so this should be easier now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 09, 2021, 07:23:57 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 08, 2021, 02:57:39 PM

any oral treatment would be great (I always say).

:clap:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Mladen on March 09, 2021, 07:25:58 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 08, 2021, 02:18:19 PM

Quote from: Mladen on March 08, 2021, 01:29:23 PM

Chiming in for the first time, because it feels good to be a part of a discussion with people that are aware of the problem and responsible. Unlike plenty of people in my country of Serbia. We've actually had a lot of vaccinations, but two thirds of the population probably do not want to hear a word of it, so if the restrictions do not work out either, we might be screwed for a while.

Got my first shot on Saturday, no side effects. Here's to a smooth second shot.  :metal

OOC, which vaccine is available over there in Serbia?

Pfizer, Oxford, Sinofarm and Sputnik. I happened to get the Oxford one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 09, 2021, 08:46:07 AM

Quote from: Mladen on March 09, 2021, 07:25:58 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 08, 2021, 02:18:19 PM

Quote from: Mladen on March 08, 2021, 01:29:23 PM

Chiming in for the first time, because it feels good to be a part of a discussion with people that are aware of the problem and responsible. Unlike plenty of people in my country of Serbia. We've actually had a lot of vaccinations, but two thirds of the population probably do not want to hear a word of it, so if the restrictions do not work out either, we might be screwed for a while.

Got my first shot on Saturday, no side effects. Here's to a smooth second shot.  :metal

OOC, which vaccine is available over there in Serbia?

Pfizer, Oxford, Sinofarm and Sputnik. I happened to get the Oxford one.

Intersting, I have little knowledge on Sinofarm or Sputnik.  I wonder if they are just as good as the others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 09, 2021, 11:21:14 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 08, 2021, 03:24:26 PM

I'm sorry; I'm not following.  Are you saying you got it twice, or is this a remnant of December? 

I'm confused.

I was probably unclear. No, I definitely did not get it twice, I tested recently and was negative. I suspect it's a remnant of December, although I was fine for pretty much the whole February. I don't know why this issue has popped up now, but the fact that I had it a few months ago is the only reason I can think of.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2021, 08:46:07 AM

Intersting, I have little knowledge on Sinofarm or Sputnik.  I wonder if they are just as good as the others.

The research for Sputnik seems solid although a lot of people here also say that it's not tested enough or that it's the government's propaganda. I'll be getting Sputnik in April.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 09, 2021, 01:43:36 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 09, 2021, 07:23:57 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 08, 2021, 02:57:39 PM

any oral treatment would be great (I always say).

:clap:

I also concur very wholeheartedly with this statement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Mladen on March 09, 2021, 02:12:48 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 09, 2021, 08:46:07 AM

Intersting, I have little knowledge on Sinofarm or Sputnik.  I wonder if they are just as good as the others.

The studies show that Sinofarm is less effective than Pfizer. However, it appears to be affordable to the goverment, and if enough people get it, it still prevents the spread of the virus immensely. Not to mention that if you do catch the virus after getting Sinofarm, you get off pretty easily. That's at least what I gather from the information available to me.

As far as Sputnik goes, parts of Europe are embracing the possibility of introducing it as well. It looks like Germany is on it:

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-starts-rolling-review-sputnik-v-covid-19-vaccine

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 09, 2021, 02:41:04 PM

I know it was mentioned a few pages back but I think it's worth mentioning again that while the effectiveness of the different vaccines varies, even the Johnson and Johnson vaccine that's only rated as about "70% effective in the USA" is more than twice as effective as the average flu shot and according to the data it prevented 100% of the recipients in the trials from dying if they became infected and prevented hospitalization in all but 1 case during the trials.

If I can get the Johnson & Johnson vaccine -1 shot and you're done- I'll be the first one to raise my hand for it.  Again, NOBODY that got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine in the trials died and only one person who contracted the virus after receiving the J&J vaccine was hospitalized. 

That's good enough for me. 


I really like the idea of 1 and done.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 09, 2021, 09:56:10 PM

I just learned which vaccine site in my county is offering the J&J Vaccine. You bet your ass that's the site I'll be shooting for when I can register on Monday morning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 04:57:44 AM

I got the Moderna shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on March 10, 2021, 04:59:31 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on March 09, 2021, 01:43:36 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 09, 2021, 07:23:57 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 08, 2021, 02:57:39 PM

any oral treatment would be great (I always say).

:clap:

I also concur very wholeheartedly with this statement.

 :zydar:

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 04:57:44 AM

I got the Moderna shot.

Any side effects? I havent' followed this thread, so I don't know if you've already told us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 10, 2021, 06:07:00 AM

Pretty pissed off this morning regarding Covid. Some of you might know I have a weekend gig doing catering for a local mom & pop grocery store. I pretty much just do Sundays, and I'm in my own isolated prep room downstairs. I get my own room because I handle all the raw stuff in preparation for the kitchen upstairs. We keep raw stuff like fish, chicken, beef, etc separate from the food being put together to avoid cross contamination. The kitchen upstairs is part of a slightly larger deli and bakery (refer to super sophisticated illustration below - I just noticed I forgot to include the ovens. Please forgive me).

(https://i.redd.it/367vojvu77m61.jpg)

At any given time, there are usually 8 people sharing that space, sometimes upwards of 11 during peak times. The space is about 21'x12' empty.

There's one girl I occasionally work with when she shows up. She's been there about six months and has over a dozen call outs already. Anyway, turns out she has Covid. She's had it since at least Saturday when she posted it on Facebook. One of my coworkers just texted me saying another coworker saw the post this morning and notified management. This person still came to work on Monday and Tuesday and didn't tell a single person she tested positive! She's working shoulder-to-shoulder with a dozen other people in a confined space.. a space that was sealed off with plastic to the ceiling to protect us from customers.

Unbelievable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 10, 2021, 06:11:43 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 10, 2021, 06:07:00 AM

21'x12'

 :metal

Quote from: Chino on March 10, 2021, 06:07:00 AM

There's one girl I occasionally work with when she shows up. She's been there about six months and has over a dozen call outs already. Anyway, turns out she has Covid. She's had it since at least Saturday when she posted it on Facebook. One of my coworkers just texted me saying another coworker saw the post this morning and notified management. This person still came to work on Monday and Tuesday and didn't tell a single person she tested positive! She's working shoulder-to-shoulder with a dozen other people in a confined space..

I hope she gets fired.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 06:37:01 AM

I don't know what Chino does but maybe she can't afford to not work? I think wishing somebody losing their job without knowing the full story is harsh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 10, 2021, 06:47:01 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 06:37:01 AM

I don't know what Chino does but maybe she can't afford to not work? I think wishing somebody losing their job without knowing the full story is harsh.

You simply can't come to work after testing positive. I can't imagine that wasn't made clear at Chino's work.

There must be a consequence for KNOWINGLY exposing someone to Covid.

Believe me, I'm not a shut-in over Covid, but what she did recklessly endangered her coworkers.


Plus..this is a catering operation, right? What happens when the business has to shut down because the kitchen staff is sick or exposed. The company loses sales and perhaps community trust. And if they can trace it back to someone who KNOWINGLY reported to work after testing positive..yes, she sure as hell should be fired.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 10, 2021, 06:53:49 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 10, 2021, 06:07:00 AM

There's one girl I occasionally work with when she shows up. She's been there about six months and has over a dozen call outs already. Anyway, turns out she has Covid. She's had it since at least Saturday when she posted it on Facebook. One of my coworkers just texted me saying another coworker saw the post this morning and notified management. This person still came to work on Monday and Tuesday and didn't tell a single person she tested positive! She's working shoulder-to-shoulder with a dozen other people in a confined space.. a space that was sealed off with plastic to the ceiling to protect us from customers.

Unbelievable.

Hope you guys are ok. That was very irresponsible of her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:08:28 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 10, 2021, 06:47:01 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 06:37:01 AM

I don't know what Chino does but maybe she can't afford to not work? I think wishing somebody losing their job without knowing the full story is harsh.

You simply can't come to work after testing positive. I can't imagine that wasn't made clear at Chino's work.

There must be a consequence for KNOWINGLY exposing someone to Covid.

Believe me, I'm not a shut-in over Covid, but what she did recklessly endangered her coworkers.


Plus..this is a catering operation, right? What happens when the business has to shut down because the kitchen staff is sick or exposed. The company loses sales and perhaps community trust. And if they can trace it back to someone who KNOWINGLY reported to work after testing positive..yes, she sure as hell should be fired.

Look, I agree, you shouldn't come if you have it and it was irresponsible of her. I'm not stupid, I know she recklessly endangered her coworkers. But I'm trying to understand a possible reason for her doing that, okay? It is my belief in life that one should consider all the possibilities and not simply Occam's Razor the whole thing and assume it's merely an act of defiance. Just a personal philosophy. I'm not naive, you don't need to explain to me why it's frowned upon. You also shouldn't come to work drunk, and I've seen that happen a lot. I'm really trying to live my life not being an asshole to people anymore, not saying you have to, but that's why I said what I said. I'm trying to have sympathy - Chino gave no other details on the woman other than she knew she had it and didn't tell anyone, not why she didn't tell anyone, and because I don't know what Chino does for a living I have no idea what possible financial situation the woman could be in. No need to explain the problems to me, I'm well aware. I also realize this is too much consideration for some people to be bothered with. It's whatever

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:33:32 AM

Because she's a selfish bitch?  Probably Strapped for money but is dumb enough to post it on Facebook.  I have no sympathy for someone who wreclessly puts others in harms way. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:34:10 AM

I'm not really down with the 'selfish bitch' attack at all but yeah

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:38:36 AM

But she is.  She knew she was infected and still went to work knowingly infecting others.  If that is not a selfish act, I don't know what is then.  When you put your selfish intentions over the well being of others that's selfish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:42:34 AM

As I just said, my issue was with the ad hominem calling her a bitch, we don't need to drag this one out, I just said I agree it's selfish, I'm not dumb dude

I see my recent commitment to a life philosophy of compassion is backfiring on me from other people, as expected

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:46:49 AM

Ok.  I'll call her an asshole then.  She's an asshole for not thinking of other's well being.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:47:42 AM

I don't think you know what ad hominem means because you completely missed the point. Just forget it, have a good day dude, this is an off topic tangent of the virus anyway and I apologize for getting it there

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 10, 2021, 08:53:35 AM

Well, I tend to go back to not judging anyone until or unless I've walked a mile in their shoes.  On the surface this looks like straight up selfish irresponsibility, but we're not getting the entire story here so I'm reluctant to pass judgement on someone absent ALL the facts surrounding the situation.  I'm compassionate and for reasons that are obvious to anyone who knows me, I am 100# on board with giving people second chances and I also believe people can and often do learn from their mistakes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:53:54 AM

Mike bro.  It's ok.  I just get ramped up when someone is this blatant.  I would be understanding if she didn't recognize the symptoms.  That's understandable but she posted knowing full well she had it and still went to work and did not acknowledge it to her fellow employees.  That's maddening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:54:20 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 10, 2021, 08:53:35 AM

Well, I tend to go back to not judging anyone until or unless I've walked a mile in their shoes.  On the surface this looks like straight up selfish irresponsibility, but we're not getting the entire story here so I'm reluctant to pass judgement on someone absent ALL the facts surrounding the situation.  I'm compassionate and for reasons that are obvious to anyone who knows me, I am 100# on board with giving people second chances and I also believe people can and often do learn from their mistakes.

*sighs and gesticulates with gratitude towards KNH*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:55:08 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 10, 2021, 08:53:35 AM

Well, I tend to go back to not judging anyone until or unless I've walked a mile in their shoes.  On the surface this looks like straight up selfish irresponsibility, but we're not getting the entire story here so I'm reluctant to pass judgement on someone absent ALL the facts surrounding the situation.  I'm compassionate and for reasons that are obvious to anyone who knows me, I am 100# on board with giving people second chances and I also believe people can and often do learn from their mistakes.

Well I would think since she posted on Facebook that she had it and still went to work not acknowledging it to her fellow employees we know the facts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:56:28 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 08:53:54 AM

Mike bro.  It's ok.  I just get ramped up when someone is this blatant.  I would be understanding if she didn't recognize the symptoms.  That's understandable but she posted knowing full well she had it and still went to work and did not acknowledge it to her fellow employees.  That's maddening.

So tell me, for the sake of conversation, what do you think of me? I haven't worn a mask at work. None of us have. Returned to the gym 6 days a week for a month and a half no mask. Still wear it in stores and elsewhere. Still hang out with friends in close proximity. Am I an asshole? Haven't given the rona to anybody in over a year of going about my life normally despite not getting tested. Do you see what I am getting at with the conversation about being an asshole to people you perceive as assholes? You could make an argument that I'm as bad as her, but it's not that simple, and I guarantee you probably won't call me an asshole. I TRIPLE dog dare ya!! :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:59:28 AM

Are you staying with the same friends?  Do you have family that can't afford to be infected or are you staying away from them because you are not wearing a mask.  Are you at work going into other establishments for work without a mask or do you wear one when asked to?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 09:00:40 AM

Also, if you knew you were infected with the virus would you continue to do the same things or would you quarantine?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:01:44 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 08:59:28 AM

Are you staying with the same friends?  Do you have family that can't afford to be infected or are you staying away from them because you are not wearing a mask.  Are you at work going into other establishments for work without a mask or do you wear one when asked to?

Bro, I literally work with my family and see them almost every day. I hang with any and all friends. I go into other establishments during my work days with a mask, but I also interact with a great number of people who do not wear masks in our office and in the shop. I respect the rules, except for the gym because working out with a mask is the big stupid.

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 08:59:28 AM

Also, if you knew you were infected with the virus would you continue to do the same things or would you quarantine?

That depends. I literally can't afford to not work for a week, let alone two. You gonna pay me? If not, who is? If no one's paying me, I'm going to work until I can't breathe. I live by myself. If I ain't making money, I'm up shit creek.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 09:02:27 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:42:34 AM

As I just said, my issue was with the ad hominem calling her a bitch, we don't need to drag this one out, I just said I agree it's selfish, I'm not dumb dude

I see my recent commitment to a life philosophy of compassion is backfiring on me from other people, as expected

All you can do is...Continue to do you.

Here's my thought, If she didn't post it on Facebook, I doubt anyone would've known she had it. At least, she was stupid enough to post it on Facebook that she is positive.

And also, how are we to regulate those people, if you wouldn't have known if she didn't post this.

If I were the manager, I would fire her, not only for what she admitted to being, but mainly, for calling in so many damn times, and didn't bother calling in when you are positive.

Again though, I don't know her situation for the reason of the many call ins, and I don't know her either. Could be she's a single mother and can't afford not to work anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 09:06:39 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:01:44 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 08:59:28 AM

Are you staying with the same friends?  Do you have family that can't afford to be infected or are you staying away from them because you are not wearing a mask.  Are you at work going into other establishments for work without a mask or do you wear one when asked to?

Bro, I literally work with my family and see them almost every day. I hang with any and all friends. I go into other establishments during my work days with a mask, but I also interact with a great number of people who do not wear masks in our office and in the shop. I respect the rules, except for the gym because working out with a mask is the big stupid.

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 08:59:28 AM

Also, if you knew you were infected with the virus would you continue to do the same things or would you quarantine?

That depends. I literally can't afford to not work for a week, let alone two. You gonna pay me? If not, who is? If no one's paying me, I'm going to work until I can't breathe. I live by myself. If I ain't making money, I'm up shit creek.

I understand that but there is liability in those actions.  So you would be taking a risk if you were infected.  As long as you are not do what you want but being infected like this girl is a whole other ball of wax.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 10, 2021, 09:09:20 AM

I think two things can simultaneously be true:  (1) We can (and SHOULD) have sympathy for her individual situation; AND (2) she should be fired.  Giving her every benefit of the doubt, and assuming she had the best intentions possible and intended no harm, you can't knowingly come to work infected.  That's just a consequence of her actions, regardless of her intentions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 09:13:27 AM

The thing is too. She works there and should know the policies in place currently at the workplace. She should know the consequences for not reporting she is positive, especially when returning to work.

Again though, how would you regulate that? Would you submit to a bi-weekly testing by the employers just to make sure no employees are not positive? How would one know another person is positive if not reported or mentioned? How do you know the other Employees weren't positive as well, they just weren't stupid enough to post it for the world to know?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:14:43 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 10, 2021, 09:09:20 AM

I think two things can simultaneously be true:  (1) We can (and SHOULD) have sympathy for her individual situation; AND (2) she should be fired.  Giving her every benefit of the doubt, and assuming she had the best intentions possible and intended no harm, you can't knowingly come to work infected.  That's just a consequence of her actions, regardless of her intentions.

This is a mentality that I can get behind, even if I personally disagree that she should be fired (GIVEN WHAT I KNOW, it must be stressed). That is definitely a consequence of her actions and the employer has every right to do that if they wish, because it's not my business and my opinion really has no bearing on it in the end.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 10, 2021, 09:17:24 AM

Posting it on FB was an incredibly stupid thing to do, especially if her reason for still coming in was because she needed money. Now there's a chance she loses access to that job all together. If you're going to lie, commit to it.

I should have noted this earlier, but I was in a rush to get the post out before a meeting this morning. We work for an AMAZING family. They have four locations and employee 440 people give or take. The owner has paid (out of his own pocket) for rehab and addiction programs for dozens of his employees in the 16 years I've known him. We had other employees catch Covid over the last year, and they were paid to quarantine without having to tap into their PTO bank. Maybe this employee wasn't aware of that arrangement, but it's happened multiple times since she's been with us. Time and time again, it's been made very clear that the health of the staff and staying open are the two biggest priorities, and our owner would rather have to flip you $1K for staying home over having the community hear mumblings of a possible outbreak in one of his locations.   

 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 09:18:53 AM

That's actually what I was saying Mike with an adjective thrown in.  Like I said, I can be sympathetic to her situation but her posting about it and going into work shows a disregard to other's wellbeing.  I would have suggested to her to reach out to her family for assistance.  Hell even those at work if she stayed out might pool a little bit of money to help her our.  She just needed to do the right thing.

Edit: Just read Brian's post above me.  Wow.  She really made a poor decision.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:23:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 09:18:53 AM

That's actually what I was saying Mike with an adjective thrown in.  Like I said, I can be sympathetic to her situation but her posting about it and going into work shows a disregard to other's wellbeing.  I would have suggested to her to reach out to her family for assistance.  Hell even those at work if she stayed out might pool a little bit of money to help her our.  She just needed to do the right thing.

Edit: Just read Brian's post above me.  Wow.  She really made a poor decision.

It's not just an adjective, it's ad hominem, I really think you should research what that term means because otherwise you are completely missing the reason behind those posts, seriously. I know what you were saying. My issue was calling her a bitch for it (to which you responded by switching for asshole, which... changed nothing). For the third or fourth time I am not stupid. I can tell when someone is showing disregard for others. Please do not make me keep telling you this, not only is it completely trivial to the larger discussion and a tangent that I'm trying to put to bed, I'm tired of getting the notion that people think I am blissfully unaware of the effect people's behavior has on others, my guy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 10, 2021, 09:24:06 AM

Actions have consequences.  This lady sounds both stupid (posting it on FB LOL) and selfish (showing up to work with COVID and not telling a soul).  I get that times are tough, but it's hard to feel sorry for someone who did what she did. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 09:30:29 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 10, 2021, 09:17:24 AM

Posting it on FB was an incredibly stupid thing to do, especially if her reason for still coming in was because she needed money. Now there's a chance she loses access to that job all together. If you're going to lie, commit to it.

I should have noted this earlier, but I was in a rush to get the post out before a meeting this morning. We work for an AMAZING family. They have four locations and employee 440 people give or take. The owner has paid (out of his own pocket) for rehab and addiction programs for dozens of his employees in the 16 years I've known him. We had other employees catch Covid over the last year, and they were paid to quarantine without having to tap into their PTO bank. Maybe this employee wasn't aware of that arrangement, but it's happened multiple times since she's been with us. Time and time again, it's been made very clear that the health of the staff and staying open are the two biggest priorities, and our owner would rather have to flip you $1K for staying home over having the community hear mumblings of a possible outbreak in one of his locations.

Maybe those times it was made clear, is when she called-out. So she wasn't there to know or understand the possibility of that.

But, who knows why she even posted it on Facebook to begin with. :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2021, 09:31:35 AM

Just got my second Pfizer. Now the wait is on to see if I get any side effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 09:32:05 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:08:28 AM

But I'm trying to understand a possible reason for her doing that, okay?

Would you try to understand possible reasons for someone driving drunk?  For someone with AIDS having unprotected sex with someone else without disclosing it?  For a parent to leave their 2-year old child locked in a car in the mall parking lot in July?  Sometimes behaviour is simply reckless and irresponsible (and illegal) - it doesn't matter what the reasons are... especially when putting others at risk.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:56:28 AM

So tell me, for the sake of conversation, what do you think of me? I haven't worn a mask at work. None of us have. Returned to the gym 6 days a week for a month and a half no mask. Still wear it in stores and elsewhere. Still hang out with friends in close proximity. Am I an asshole? Haven't given the rona to anybody in over a year of going about my life normally despite not getting tested. Do you see what I am getting at with the conversation about being an asshole to people you perceive as assholes? You could make an argument that I'm as bad as her, but it's not that simple, and I guarantee you probably won't call me an asshole. I TRIPLE dog dare ya!! :) :)

I don't think you're an asshole, but I do think you're taking unnecessary risks - for yourself, and for others around you.  As for the gym issue, I had a co-worker contract COVID from working out at a gym... while masked.  You (royal) never know when you're asymptomatic until after the fact.  Thank god you haven't contracted it or infected anyone.  How do you think people feel after they have tested positive, then find out co-workers / friends / fellow gym-goers then test positive a couple days later? And they get sick, or worse?

@ King... I do think you're being a bit harsh in your condemnation, despite condemnation being warranted.

Let me ask you this Mike...if one of your co-workers came to work having knowingly testing positive, and didn't tell anyone, and spent a couple of days shoulder-to-shoulder with you, how would you react?

Also, you say "ad hominem" one more time, Ima gonna start calling you Stads Jr.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 10, 2021, 09:33:23 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 09:30:29 AM

But, who knows why she even posted it on Facebook to begin with. :facepalm:

"Because she is stupid" sounds like the most logical and simplest explanation.  It's like a person slamming their boss on Twitter, knowing that 8 of their followers are co-workers, and then being stunned when they are fired days later. "OMG, what happened??" :lol  Stupid people do stupid things.

Edit: Do I think Joe's condemnation is a bit harsh? Maybe. As is mine. But damn it, there is light at the end of the tunnel (hopefully!) with this pandemic, yet we still have people like this lady acting stupid and putting people at risk. It's maddening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 09:38:09 AM

Chad, I'd throw the book at that asshole for infecting me and others.   :lol

When you are blatantly putting another persons health at risk  I should be able to call them out using an adjective Mike.  She's not making a statement like not wearing a mask.  She's making a bad decision based on who knows why.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:38:56 AM

God damn it, Chad, I wish I could quit you.

* * *

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 09:32:05 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:08:28 AM

But I'm trying to understand a possible reason for her doing that, okay?

Would you try to understand possible reasons for someone driving drunk?  For someone with AIDS having unprotected sex with someone else without disclosing it?  For a parent to leave their 2-year old child locked in a car in the mall parking lot in July?  Sometimes behaviour is simply reckless and irresponsible (and illegal) - it doesn't matter what the reasons are... especially when putting others at risk.

I had a response to this typed out until I realized it doesn't matter, because I already said it's reckless and irresponsible. What else do you want from me? Christ, I'm gonna have to put, "I'm not stupid," in my sig at this rate the way you guys think I'm so naive.

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 09:32:05 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:56:28 AM

So tell me, for the sake of conversation, what do you think of me? I haven't worn a mask at work. None of us have. Returned to the gym 6 days a week for a month and a half no mask. Still wear it in stores and elsewhere. Still hang out with friends in close proximity. Am I an asshole? Haven't given the rona to anybody in over a year of going about my life normally despite not getting tested. Do you see what I am getting at with the conversation about being an asshole to people you perceive as assholes? You could make an argument that I'm as bad as her, but it's not that simple, and I guarantee you probably won't call me an asshole. I TRIPLE dog dare ya!! :) :)

I don't think you're an asshole, but I do think you're taking unnecessary risks - for yourself, and for others around you.  As for the gym issue, I had a co-worker contract COVID from working out at a gym... while masked.  You (royal) never know when you're asymptomatic until after the fact.  Thank god you haven't contracted it or infected anyone.  How do you think people feel after they have tested positive, then find out co-workers / friends / fellow gym-goers then test positive a couple days later? And they get sick, or worse?

Guess what, dude, I kind of want to get on with my fucking life and I live in a rural area. I count my blessings every day for that. If there's 3 people in my gym when I show up I consider that a crowd.

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 09:32:05 AM

Let me ask you this Mike...if one of your co-workers came to work having knowingly testing positive, and didn't tell anyone, and spent a couple of days shoulder-to-shoulder with you, how would you react?

You want me to answer that without knowing if I'm showing symptoms or not? Can't fall into that trap, pal, sorry. I can't tell you how I'm going to react in a future scenario especially without even knowing whether or not I have the virus. Not a fair question.

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 09:32:05 AM

Also, you say "ad hominem" one more time, Ima gonna start calling you Stads Jr.  :lol

Well, until king learns what it means, I'm gonna have to keep saying it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:39:24 AM

Her behavior is completely irresponsible. She's basically hot-boxing the kitchen, a tight enclosed hot space, with Covid, everyone in that space is potentially fucked. I hope they're all young and healthy. I consider this behavior akin to having unprotected sex knowing they have an std that is possibly fatal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:42:31 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:39:24 AM

Her behavior is completely irresponsible. She's basically hot-boxing the kitchen, a tight enclosed hot space, with Covid, everyone in that space is potentially fucked. I hope they're all young and healthy. I consider this behavior akin to having unprotected sex knowing they have an std that is possibly fatal.

I addressed this in my original reply to Chad before I deleted it but no it is not the same thing. Having sex doesn't happen without the very immediate participation and involvement of another human, direct physical contact. If those two people don't make the sexy time, nobody has any risk of an STD. You aren't gonna randomly catch gonorrhea by standing near Nancy the Tavern Wench. Her simply being near people is NOT the same thing. Also, in the AIDS instance, that involves deception because you are directly, literally fucking someone without telling them you have AIDS.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:44:03 AM

And she is very much potentially infecting then with Covid, without telling them. Same thing dude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:45:00 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:44:03 AM

And she is very much potentially infecting then with Covid, without telling them. Same thing dude.

Potentially. You don't KNOW for sure, and being in proximity is not the same thing as sticking your dick in someone. It's just not. Sorry I disagree on this, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 09:47:20 AM

 :lol

Love you too Mike.  So you are telling me she making a stand by going to work infected?  I know what Ad Hominem means.  You are using it incorrectly.  You are using your beliefs for her actions.  I don't think she is making a stand, she just made a bad decision.  You not wearing a mask is a statement.  BTW, I'm ok with. Your life, your call.  Unless you get infected then you have to adapt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:48:11 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:45:00 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:44:03 AM

And she is very much potentially infecting then with Covid, without telling them. Same thing dude.

Potentially. You don't KNOW for sure, and being in proximity is not the same thing as sticking your dick in someone. It's just not. Sorry I disagree on this, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:48:35 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 09:47:20 AM

:lol

Love you too Mike.  So you are telling me she making a stand by going to work infected?  I know what Ad Hominem means.  You are using it incorrectly.  You are using your beliefs for her actions.  I don't think she is making a stand, she just made a bad decision.  You not wearing a mask is a statement.  BTW, I'm ok with. Your life, your call.  Unless you get infected then you have to adapt.

... what? How am I using ad hominem incorrectly (I'm not)? Ad hominem is calling someone an asshole or a bitch. WTF? I am not using 'my beliefs' for her actions. I didn't say she was making a stand, either. Boy, you are completely missing my point. I'm kind of stunned. So once again... let me just agree to disagree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:51:29 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:48:11 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:45:00 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:44:03 AM

And she is very much potentially infecting then with Covid, without telling them. Same thing dude.

Potentially. You don't KNOW for sure, and being in proximity is not the same thing as sticking your dick in someone. It's just not. Sorry I disagree on this, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 :facepalm:

I've replied respectfully to you. Thanks for reciprocating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 10:02:56 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:38:56 AM

God damn it, Chad, I wish I could quit you.

 :-*

I guess I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements:

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:08:28 AM

But I'm trying to understand a possible reason for her doing that, okay?

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:38:56 AM

I had a response to this typed out until I realized it doesn't matter, because I already said it's reckless and irresponsible. What else do you want from me?

I'm just wondering why her reasons matter?  The point everyone else seems to be making is that it was irresponsible and selfish - to me, the reasons don't matter; to you, they seem to.  That doesn't compute to me, but that might just be me.  If we agree that her behaviour was reckless and irresponsible, then :tup.  As for what I want, I don't have any specific wants from anyone.  We're just shooting the shit here like pals.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:45:00 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:44:03 AM

And she is very much potentially infecting then with Covid, without telling them. Same thing dude.

Potentially. You don't KNOW for sure, and being in proximity is not the same thing as sticking your dick in someone. It's just not. Sorry I disagree on this, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Actually it is.  If your argument is that a COVID positive person MIGHT NOT spread the virus, than that argument would also apply to unprotected (but consensual) sex.  They are not guaranteed to catch an STD thru unprotected sex.  COVID virus transmits thru respiratory droplets; HIV transmits thru semen.  Same principle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 10:04:58 AM

Respectfully, I'm done. I'm tired of apparently giving the impression that I'm stupid or that I am being flippant towards COVID, again. It was a mistake to post in this thread again and for all this I apologize. Enjoy the day y'all. No hard feelings... just feel like I've said all I have to say and lack the will to keep dragging this on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 10:17:15 AM

HIV also can be transmitted through a Blood Transfusion. If someone has HIV and it's transmissible and gets a cut and drops blood everywhere, if anyone else has an open wound, it's possible they can become infected. You can even get it from eating food chewed by someone that has HIV.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 10:04:58 AM

Respectfully, I'm done. I'm tired of apparently giving the impression that I'm stupid or that I am being flippant towards COVID, again. It was a mistake to post in this thread again and for all this I apologize. Enjoy the day y'all. No hard feelings... just feel like I've said all I have to say and lack the will to keep dragging this on.

 :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 10:51:57 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 10:17:15 AM

HIV also can be transmitted through a Blood Transfusion. If someone has HIV and it's transmissible and gets a cut and drops blood everywhere, if anyone else has an open wound, it's possible they can become infected. You can even get it from eating food chewed by someone that has HIV.

Seems you completely missed my point - it was not about HIV.  It was about needlessly endangering others because of ones own actions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 10:54:19 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 10:51:57 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 10:17:15 AM

HIV also can be transmitted through a Blood Transfusion. If someone has HIV and it's transmissible and gets a cut and drops blood everywhere, if anyone else has an open wound, it's possible they can become infected. You can even get it from eating food chewed by someone that has HIV.

Seems you completely missed my point - it was not about HIV.  It was about needlessly endangering others because of ones own actions.

Exactly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 10, 2021, 11:18:39 AM

The girl is an idiot, can't believe the conversation didn't end there.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2021, 11:18:39 AM

The girl is an idiot, can't believe the conversation didn't end there.  :lol

I'm sorry it's so difficult for you to imagine someone wanting to be a little more nuanced and offer other possibilities for the sake of said conversation. You are so much smarter and better, congratulations Marc.

These reactions are why I hesitate to offer other viewpoints that might lead to constructive discussions about how people behave and think. I get lol's and facepalms from people who I thought were my friends and would show more respect than that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 10, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

Particulars aside, I would bet the farm people going to work knowing they have covid is happening a lot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 10, 2021, 11:29:43 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2021, 11:18:39 AM

The girl is an idiot, can't believe the conversation didn't end there.  :lol

I'm sorry it's so difficult for you to imagine someone wanting to be a little more nuanced and offer other possibilities for the sake of said conversation. You are so much smarter and better, congratulations Marc.

These reactions are why I hesitate to offer other viewpoints that might lead to constructive discussions about how people behave and think. I get lol's and facepalms from people who I thought were my friends and would show more respect than that.

You are arguing for arguments sake IMO.  Your nuanced arguments make little sense to me other than to get reactions from others which you clearly did.  I'll stay out of it anymore than this because it's not an interesting conversation to me other than agreeing with Chino for being annoyed with the dumb girl and also that it's another reason to hate facebook.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 11:31:31 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2021, 11:29:43 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2021, 11:18:39 AM

The girl is an idiot, can't believe the conversation didn't end there.  :lol

I'm sorry it's so difficult for you to imagine someone wanting to be a little more nuanced and offer other possibilities for the sake of said conversation. You are so much smarter and better, congratulations Marc.

These reactions are why I hesitate to offer other viewpoints that might lead to constructive discussions about how people behave and think. I get lol's and facepalms from people who I thought were my friends and would show more respect than that.

You are arguing for arguments sake IMO.  Your nuanced arguments make little sense to me other than to get reactions from others which you clearly did.  I'll stay out of it anymore than this because it's not an interesting conversation to me other than agreeing with Chino for being annoyed with the dumb girl and also that it's another reason to hate facebook.

You don't understand, therefore I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. Yeah, that's logical. You are not showing a willingness to understand in the first place. Stay out of it indeed if that's all you want to do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2021, 11:33:03 AM

Guys, guys....stop bringing down the covid thread. This is supposed to be a happy and celebratory place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 10, 2021, 11:33:19 AM

Chino addressed the employee most likely would have received paid quarantined time, so if she thought she couldn’t afford to miss time she was incorrect.  It’s on her to know the policy. She made a dumb decision.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 11:34:24 AM

Quote from: T-ski on March 10, 2021, 11:33:19 AM

Chino addressed the employee most likely would have received paid quarantined time, so if she thought she couldn’t afford to miss time she was incorrect.  It’s on her to know the policy. She made a dumb decision.

Okay, if that's the case, then case closed. Simple as that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 11:35:26 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 10, 2021, 11:33:03 AM

Guys, guys....stop bringing down the covid thread. This is supposed to be a happy and celebratory place.

 :lol  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 11:48:05 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 10, 2021, 11:18:39 AM

The girl is an idiot, can't believe the conversation didn't end there.  :lol

I'm sorry it's so difficult for you to imagine someone wanting to be a little more nuanced and offer other possibilities for the sake of said conversation. You are so much smarter and better, congratulations Marc.

These reactions are why I hesitate to offer other viewpoints that might lead to constructive discussions about how people behave and think. I get lol's and facepalms from people who I thought were my friends and would show more respect than that.

Mike, we are your friends.  I get why this is personal to you because you have chose to not wear a mask but this instance isn't about that.  This is about a girl who knew she was infected and made a bad decision that affects others.  You not wearing a mask only affects you right now.  If you get infected then I'd gander to think you would not be out walking around without a mask.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Just my thoughts on it.  BTW, I'm not mad, I don't want you to think that.  Don't worry Greg Allman.  You're still my bro.

Quote from: Adami on March 10, 2021, 11:33:03 AM

Guys, guys....stop bringing down the covid thread. This is supposed to be a happy and celebratory place.

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 11:50:49 AM

You still don't understand me. Me not wearing a mask at the gym has nothing to do with how I felt about this, this is not personal. I am exasperated. Stop explaining things I understand over and over to me as if I don't, please?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 12:39:44 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 10, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

Particulars aside, I would bet the farm people going to work knowing they have covid is happening a lot.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 10, 2021, 09:02:27 AM

Here's my thought, If she didn't post it on Facebook, I doubt anyone would've known she had it. At least, she was stupid enough to post it on Facebook that she is positive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 10, 2021, 12:50:03 PM

@King:  Calling that girl those things absolutely IS an ad hominem.  Unless you are referring to a literal female dog, referring to someone as a "bitch" precisely fits the definition of an ad hominem.  Not sure why you seem to think otherwise.  The issue isn't whether or not it is.  It clearly is.  The issue is whether you feel that it is justified.  (which I am not debating--whether you feel it is justified is up to you)

That said, I don't really get what is going on with this:

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 10:04:58 AM

Respectfully, I'm done. I'm tired of apparently giving the impression that I'm stupid or that I am being flippant towards COVID, again.

Best I can tell from reading through the thread, nobody said or implied that you were stupid or flippant.  People just disagree, and are stating their reasons why.  I don't see anything out of bounds.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 12:52:52 PM

It is, as Dennis on Always Sunny says, the implication, but perhaps I am indeed reading into it too much, bosk; you are correct. My mistake.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 12:59:06 PM

Definition - directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

I get it but I didn't look at her decision as a position.  I thought she made a bad mistake in judgement. I think Mike had a position he was maintaining and if I called him an adjective (Or a noun lol) then Ad hominem would better suit.

If we take out the rather than section I'd agree that it was directed against her.  If I'm wrong ok.  No big deal.  I wasn't trying to fight with Mike.  It upset me that the girl would put so many in jeopardy knowing she was infected.  I'm ok with those who don't want to wear a mask, their choice.  Once they are infected, they have to act accordingly and she didn't.   

And Mike, I'm sorry if I did imply that I knew what you were thinking.  I was trying to be sympathetic to you because you don't want to wear a mask and many people are against that.  I didn't mean to upset you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 01:00:50 PM

Bro it literally does not matter how you see it, calling someone an asshole or a bitch or any insult like that is an ad hominem. You are attacking the person flat out. That's the only purpose of those words. Who is the asshole or bitch if not her? Of course it is directed at her. This is frustrating. I know you're not intending to upset me, and I appreciate that. I am frustrated, but that is all. I don't have the desire or energy to be angry anymore and I'm honestly trying to live that every second of the day for my own benefit. It's all good.

And I do want to wear a mask. I literally wear it everywhere. Just not the gym.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 10, 2021, 01:01:16 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 12:52:52 PM

It is, as Dennis on Always Sunny says, the implication, but perhaps I am indeed reading into it too much, bosk; you are correct. My mistake.

Is Dennis the best person to reference here ?  :rollin :rollin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iwwtkhInxU

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 02:23:59 PM

HAHAHA. Good point!  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 02:46:52 PM

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/texas-rangers-plan-to-allow-full-capacity-of-fans-for-2021-mlb-opening-day/

Only in Texas.

This ought to end well.  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 03:00:09 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 10, 2021, 02:46:52 PM

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/texas-rangers-plan-to-allow-full-capacity-of-fans-for-2021-mlb-opening-day/

Only in Texas.

This ought to end well.  ::)

 :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 07:52:40 PM

No it really isn't an Ad Hominem attack.  Ad Hominem is rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.  Calling someone a bad name might be Ad Hominem, if it was done to avoid addressing the argument.  But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Sometimes calling someone a name is just simply that.

Technically there is no argument that he is ignoring.  Chino is simply upset at the woman's actions, and rightfully so.  She knowingly put others at risk to a possibly deadly disease, and put the business, and employees in potential financial harm.....AND posted it on Facebook.

She is being selfish, regardless of the circumstances.  Her financial situation (or any other challenges) do not outweigh the damage she could have (and might still have) caused.

Now if Chino was have a discussion directly with this woman, and she posited her argument in defense of her actions, and instead of replying to her argument, he simply says, "no, it's because you are a Bitch"....THAT is Ad Hominem.  That is clearly NOT what happened.

Chino calling her a Bitch (to third parties on a prog rock forum no less lol) is NOT attacking her personally as a way to avoid addressing her argument.
He simply called her a fucking name because he is pissed at her ridiculously brazen selfishness.

Seriously....this is so stupid.....Ad Hominem?  No.  Compassion?  Certainly none from her.
He called the woman a name....in a forum she will never read...because she knowingly put people at risk.
Calling someone who knowingly puts peoples Health, Life, Income, Business in jeopardy acted like a Bitch.

He called her a name....it was not Ad Hominem.  She was (in that instance) a Selfish Bitch. 

Oh, and I'm getting my first vaccine shot tomorrow 10am!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 08:04:00 PM

duplicate post.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 10, 2021, 08:05:22 PM

In case we weren't clear the first time? :neverusethis:  :lol

EDIT: nevermind. ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:08:50 PM

Edit: lol nvm

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:10:11 PM

I want to post that Brian didn't call her a bitch. That was me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 10, 2021, 08:13:44 PM

You're a bitch.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 08:16:27 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:08:50 PM

Eric, you do not know what ad hominem means and you really embarrassed yourself by digging your heels in on that so hard.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:08:50 PM

Edit: lol nvm

Why did you edit your post?  Was it that the post did not meet your new "compassionate" lifestyle, or did you just look up the definition of Ad Hominem after you posted it?

Ad Hominem is a logical fallacy used in arguments where personal attacks are used instead of addressing the actual argument. 
Calling someone a name to third parties, and not in response to the other persons argument, but in frustrations to selfish actions, an Ad Hominem does not make. 

You are welcome to think whatever you want, but isn't telling me "I don't know what Ad Hominem means", and that "I am really embarrassing myself", without addressing my argument pretty much an Ad Hominem attack?  Instead of telling me don't know what I'm talking about and must be embarrassed, perhaps post the definition of Ad Hominem, and address my position with your counter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 08:16:58 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 08:10:11 PM

I want to post that Brian didn't call her a bitch. That was me.

My bad.  Sorry. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2021, 08:20:19 PM

She did deserve it though putting her priorities over everyone else's safety.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 08:27:28 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 10, 2021, 08:20:19 PM

She did deserve it though putting her priorities over everyone else's safety.

100%

Bitch is defined as a malicious, spiteful, unpleasant, or disliked woman.
I would say that in the context of her actions in this case, at least one of those descriptors applies when it relates to the feelings of the people she knowingly affected.

King, you are hear by cleared of all charges of Ad Hominem Attack.  Bailiff release the cuffs.
 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:06:35 PM

You did a good enough job embarrassing yourself that I felt it unnecessary to double down and point it out. Compassion doesn't prevent me from saying you're wrong about something. You very much enjoy lording your perceived superiority over others - me, Stadler, etc - Eric, so this is not new for me. I may want to be compassionate. That doesn't mean I'm a doormat. You have convinced yourself already that you are absolutely correct. Why bother arguing.  Have a good one...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2021, 09:18:08 PM

This is getting ugly guys. No need for that.

If Stadler and I can vehemently disagree while lovingly fondling each other’s balls under the table, then we can all get along.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 10, 2021, 09:22:46 PM

And in king's defense, she is a bitch for what she did. Just saying.


Now I gotta go rub one out on the thought of Adami and Stads playing pocket pool under the table... Brb...



This thread is the gift that just keeps on giving today man...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 09:33:56 PM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:06:35 PM

You did a good enough job embarrassing yourself that I felt it unnecessary to double down and point it out. Compassion doesn't prevent me from saying you're wrong about something. You very much enjoy lording your perceived superiority over others - me, Stadler, etc - Eric, so this is not new for me. I may want to be compassionate. That doesn't mean I'm a doormat. You have convinced yourself already that you are absolutely correct. Why bother arguing.  Have a good one...

I didn't embarrass myself LOL (not sure why you would even say that other than to hurt), nor did I say I think being compassionate prevents one from saying anyone is wrong about anything. 

He simply called her a name.  Calling someone a name, or even insulting someone, does not always mean it was Ad Hominem.  I simply disagreed with you, and posted support for my argument.  You on the other hand have done nothing to support your argument other than tell people they don't know what they are talking about.  I am perfectly comfortable with my position and how I supported it.  If you don't agree, that's cool with me.....but forgive me if I don't respect your position too much if you don't present an argument other than Ad Hominem Attacks yourself.  Irony?

For some reason, you appear (to me IMHO) to perceive disagreements with you as some sort of attack against you.  I can't be sure.  I can assure you in this case it is not.

I simply say it is not Ad Hominem.  If you disagree, then support your position with the definition and context.

All Ad Hominems may be "attacks" or "insults" directed at a person....but not all attacks or insults are Ad Hominems.  MOST times an insult or attack is just an insult or attack.  It becomes an Ad Hominem when it is used instead of addressing that persons argument.  There was no argument, position, or debate.  It was a deserved insult to a person due to their undisputed actions.  Pretty simple.

Just for the record, you responding to my argument with "You very much enjoy lording your perceived superiority over others" is LITERALLY AN EXAMPLE OF AD HOMINEM.  It is rude, and has no place in this discussion.  You are literally attacking me personally with unfounded claims, instead of addressing the actual argument. 

You don't know me, or my feelings, so I respectfully ask that you cease that type of comment to me.  And perhaps you shouldn't bring Stadler in this....as we get along perfectly fine, right Bill?  ;)  We had mature discussions and mended fences.  We discuss things with respect and SUPPORT for our positions.  Maybe you can do the same?

If my posts appear aggressive to you, or you think they are personal attacks, or if I insulted you in any way, then I apologize for any misunderstanding.
I simply say no Ad Hominem....and you say yes.  I supported my position, and you attack me with Ad Hominem above.
If you want to end the discussion, that is cool with me.  If not, then lets discuss it like adults and support our positions with facts.

 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 09:44:41 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 10, 2021, 09:18:08 PM

This is getting ugly guys. No need for that.

If Stadler and I can vehemently disagree while lovingly fondling each other’s balls under the table, then we can all get along.

I agree 100%.  No need for it.  Respectfully and maturely support your position.  Agree or Disagree.  Move on.
I will do my best to stay out of the mud.

And Ball Fondlers is my favorite show on Inter-Dimensional Cable! :)

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/017/506/838/b314abf0af1da6096ca6993b735a02d4_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&crop=faces&w=1552&h=873&fit=crop&v=1500042570&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=52a1f428f5c53121f738afcab18232fe)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2021, 10:14:38 PM

Walrus, I am convinced my position is correct, because I have read, and posted support for it.  If you can support your argument in a convincing way, I am 100% open to changing my position.  However, I have not read or seen anything that supports your position.
So in the spirit of the forum, I respectfully ask that you simply post support for your position.  There are too many for me to post supporting mine, including definitions posted above, but this one seemed to explain it, so perhaps you can try to counter it.  It is a response from Quora on the question:

What is the difference between Ad Hominem and an insult?

Ted Wrigley, Philosophy, spirituality, science, mathematics, politics...
Answered 5 years ago · Author has 4.6K answers and 5.5M answer views

'Ad hominem' refers to an argument style; it is an attempt to invalidate a claim, statement, or argument because of some personal characteristic of the person making the claim. It does not need to be insulting, although it often is. For example, saying something like "You would not say that if you were not so tired" is as much an ad hominem argument as saying: "Only an idiot would say something like that". Ad hominem arguments can be patronizing or condescending instead of explicitly insulting, so long as the desired result - invalidating an opposing argument - is achieved.

An insult is just an insult. An insult doesn't (by itself) aim to invalidate or refute a claim or argument, it just puts someone down.

Calling her a selfish bitch was simply an insult, but considering the facts known, it can certainly be considered justified.


And with that, I bid you all a good night.  Except for Stadler.  I bid him a bad night.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 12:40:44 AM

Christ almighty.

Anyway, hoping Illinois lets me get vaccinated soon? I've heard some people have just called their Walgreens and got a vaccine and didn't have to wait to be eligible or whatever they're doing. Hmmmm

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on March 11, 2021, 03:44:18 AM

Something to lighten the mood bitches.

A guy in the England was called in from his first Vax Jab.  He was only 23 and had no underlining medical issues - so effectively he seemed to be jumping the queue.  So why was he called in so early?   Well his medical record had him as extremely obese, yet he only weighted 12stone (76kg)........but there was a mistake on his medi record which showed him as 6 inches instead of 6 foot!   I can't believe no one flagged this up - do you not remenber the 6 inch, 12 stone guy - he slopped in looking like a soft biscuit!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Prog Snob on March 11, 2021, 03:59:22 AM

I'm getting the vaccine this morning. I have all sorts of anxiety about it. If it was just for me, I probably wouldn't get it. My father's sick and my daughter has all sorts of allergies and other issues so I don't know how the virus would effect her. It's not worth finding out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2021, 06:05:31 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 12:40:44 AM

Christ almighty.

I have nothing to counter this argument.  Very reasoned and logical.  You Win Sir.  I concede.


---------------------------------------------------------

On another lighter note...I am off to get my first shot of the vaccine today.  My wife is a teacher, so she got hers, and they are allowing spouses as well.  So, lucky me!   :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 11, 2021, 06:23:20 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on March 11, 2021, 03:44:18 AM

Something to lighten the mood bitches.

A guy in the England was called in from his first Vax Jab.  He was only 23 and had no underlining medical issues - so effectively he seemed to be jumping the queue.  So why was he called in so early?   Well his medical record had him as extremely obese, yet he only weighted 12stone (76kg)........but there was a mistake on his medi record which showed him as 6 inches instead of 6 foot!   I can't believe no one flagged this up - do you not remenber the 6 inch, 12 stone guy - he slopped in looking like a soft biscuit!!!

lmfao!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 11, 2021, 07:42:54 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 12:40:44 AM

Anyway, hoping Illinois lets me get vaccinated soon? I've heard some people have just called their Walgreens and got a vaccine and didn't have to wait to be eligible or whatever they're doing. Hmmmm

it’s probably worth a shot(stupid pun absolutely intended  :biggrin:) especially since you’re not in a busy area they might have extras to give out. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 11, 2021, 08:05:04 AM

So, guys.  What'd I miss?    ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 08:06:25 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 11, 2021, 08:05:04 AM

So, guys.  What'd I miss?    ;D

Something about a Biscuit Man...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 08:06:51 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 11, 2021, 08:05:04 AM

So, guys.  What'd I miss?    ;D

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2021, 08:08:42 AM

Just got my first shot.  Pfizer..

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 08:23:30 AM

I suppose the ad hominem thing is one thing, Eric, but I have a bigger issue with someone going to such lengths to justify - smugly - the use of sexist language, as I'm trying to eliminate that kind of behavior from my life myself (not the sexism, the caustic language). But, c'est la vie. Can't have everyone agree with your worldview I suppose. Let's just agree to not interact with each other from now on. You've PMed me offers of peace several times... but then the only other times you interact with me are to call me out on something and have an argument, so I don't quite understand you. Probably best we both move on. If you're lucky I'll get a horrid case of the rona before I get vaccinated and this will never happen again. Truce? Serious.

Stadler, you missed WandaVision. Great show. Highly recommended.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 08:25:56 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 11, 2021, 07:42:54 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 12:40:44 AM

Anyway, hoping Illinois lets me get vaccinated soon? I've heard some people have just called their Walgreens and got a vaccine and didn't have to wait to be eligible or whatever they're doing. Hmmmm

it’s probably worth a shot(stupid pun absolutely intended  :biggrin:) especially since you’re not in a busy area they might have extras to give out.

Haha. Maybe. Didn't think of that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 11, 2021, 08:38:31 AM

It's a week out from my group being open; I'm going to start calling/visiting the CVS and Walgreen's near me to see if I can get a shot.  My father-in-law and step son (Army) have gotten them so I'm next in the familial hierarchy so to speak.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2021, 09:10:07 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 08:23:30 AM

I suppose the ad hominem thing is one thing, Eric, but I have a bigger issue with someone going to such lengths to justify - smugly - the use of sexist language, as I'm trying to eliminate that kind of behavior from my life myself (not the sexism, the caustic language). But, c'est la vie. Can't have everyone agree with your worldview I suppose. Let's just agree to not interact with each other from now on. You've PMed me offers of peace several times... but then the only other times you interact with me are to call me out on something and have an argument, so I don't quite understand you. Probably best we both move on. If you're lucky I'll get a horrid case of the rona before I get vaccinated and this will never happen again. Truce? Serious.

Not sure how to even reply to this, but I will give it a shot.

So are you saying that you were wrong about the Ad Hominem?  Or are you saying your issue is that you were right about King's words were an Ad Hominem, AND that they were sexist???  On top of that his justification was smug?  Or are you saying I did/said something sexist?
I think brushing that off as "oh well, not everyone will agree with my worldview?" is a cop out.
With all due respect, I think you owe all of us a better explanation....especially King. 

In regards to me specifically, I am going to call BS.  I PM'ed only on the one day you when you treated me in a way that was simply not cool.  I called you out and asked for an apology....to which you responded with MORE of the same uncool treatment.  Then you said you were going to block me.  Don't pull that BS out here in the forum saying I asked for peace several times.

YOU are making this personal with everyone.  I have seen it MANY times in MANY threads where you do the same.  You get very defensive when someone is simply disagreeing with you.  Then when you can't defend your position, you attack with Ad Hominem.  Irony, right?

Seriously Bro, I am getting PM's asking WTF is going on with you.
Maybe...just maybe, you should incorporate some new things into your "worldview"....things like more self-awareness, less defensiveness, less persecution complex, and some modesty to admit you are wrong when you are wrong.

I simply disagreed that Kings words were an Ad Hominem attack IN GENERAL...never said your name.  I then politely showed that clearly you were wrong.  Admit it and move on, or post SOMETHING supporting your position.

IT IS NOTHING PERSONAL.
DISAGREEING WITH YOU IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU.
I DIDNT EVEN MENTION OR QUOTE YOU IN MY POST...It was a simple stating of my opinion on one side of the argument.

Regardless of what you may think, I am NOT interested in any confrontational interactions here.  The only person I had an actual issue with was Stadler.  I reached out proactively, and accepted my fault, and we moved on.  I have ZERO interest in you in any way.  You treated me poorly, then doubled down in PM.  Its all cool with me.  These issues you have with others here are of your own making. 

Now, I have already expended enough energy going down this rabbit hole with you.  Do or say what you will, I really don't care.  I said you were wrong about the Ad Hominem, and proved it.  Either rebut my position or sit down and shut up about it.
Your issues with King being sexist, or the pity party you throw about "us being lucky you getting rona", or the personal attacks / defensiveness you show are a YOU PROBLEM.
I wash my hands of this BS.


**EDIT...and my apologies to all for derailing the tread.  I just had my fill of this BS.  He could have PM'ed me this BS, but he put it out there, so I responded.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:17:01 AM

All right then. This is childish now. My problem was with sexist, problematic language. THAT was the point. You are so focused on 'right' and 'wrong' and gloating about a victory. That is not how I like to discuss things. You are extremely toxic for me to talk to. I don't have this problem with others here. I have plenty of friends - good friends - here. I know I am not the person you say I am. They do, too.

And if anybody does have a problem with me and is PMing you, they can try talking to me instead of someone who knows nothing about me. And if they can't do that, they don't matter enough for me to care. I didn't come back here to bicker with people I don't even talk to here, like you. I offered you a truce and here you are with another screed dressing down my character which I do take offense to. Enjoy yourself. I'm done and I'm not about to wish ill on you. Just wish you'd stop running your mouth about me when I am trying to just end this peaceably between us. If this is 'BS' - my attempts to placate your belligerent nature - then so be it. Sorry. Truly. I'll always be an asshole to some people.

At this point I don't care about airing this publicly because you are making such an uproar about who I am that I absolutely have to defend myself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 09:24:00 AM

I think you know my past history Mike and I don't use those sexist words much. So the one time I do it becomes a big thing?  In all honesty most would call her worse for her actions.  Me calling her a bitch dwarfs in comparison to her actions. I figured I'd get some latitude with my past history of how I treat people but I guess not.

I'll just call her deplorable for now on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:29:02 AM

I realize it was a mistake for me to come back here. Sorry for everything. Here's the pity party again. Later

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 11, 2021, 09:38:26 AM

Joe, there was nothing in your posts that was sexist, and it is asinine for anyone to suggest that there was. Good grief.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2021, 09:40:23 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:17:01 AM

All right then. This is childish now. My problem was with sexist, problematic language. THAT was the point. You are so focused on 'right' and 'wrong' and gloating about a victory. That is not how I like to discuss things.

Oh yes it is childish...but not in the way you think.  You say now that your point was the sexist language, yet you posted these as your responses to King.  I was focused on the incorrect use of the term...that's it...now that you realize you were wrong, you move the goalpost.  That's childish.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:42:34 AM

As I just said, my issue was with the ad hominem calling her a bitch

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 08:47:42 AM

I don't think you know what ad hominem means because you completely missed the point.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:23:27 AM

It's not just an adjective, it's ad hominem, I really think you should research what that term means because otherwise you are completely missing the reason behind those posts, seriously.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:48:35 AM

How am I using ad hominem incorrectly (I'm not)? Ad hominem is calling someone an asshole or a bitch.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 01:00:50 PM

Bro it literally does not matter how you see it, calling someone an asshole or a bitch or any insult like that is an ad hominem.

You said AD HOMINEM...not SEXIST.  I simply disagreed with Ad Hominem....you simply can't admit when you are wrong, and quickly turn defensive.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:17:01 AM

And if anybody does have a problem with me and is PMing you, they can try talking to me instead of someone who knows nothing about me. And if they can't do that, they don't matter enough for me to care

That is a YOU problem.  Don't bitch to me about it.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:17:01 AM

I didn't come back here to bicker with people I don't even talk to here, like you.

Yet you constantly bicker with so many different people.  Look for the common denominator....like I said, its a YOU problem.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:17:01 AM

I offered you a truce and here you are with another screed dressing down my character which I do take offense to. Enjoy yourself. I'm done and I'm not about to wish ill on you. Just wish you'd stop running your mouth about me when I am trying to just end this peaceably between us. If this is 'BS' - my attempts to placate your belligerent nature - then so be it. Sorry. Truly. I'll always be an asshole to some people.

You never "offered a truce" Bro.  But I apologize if any of my attacks on your character hurt your feelings....see below:

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:17:01 AM

If this is 'BS' - my attempts to placate your belligerent nature - then so be it.

Quote from: The Walrus on March 10, 2021, 09:06:35 PM

You very much enjoy lording your perceived superiority over others

Be more self-aware and grow up a bit.  I'm done with your BS.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 11, 2021, 09:50:20 AM

God damn. This argument has more endings than Lord of the Rings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2021, 09:52:35 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 11, 2021, 09:50:20 AM

God damn. This argument has more endings than Lord of the Rings.

It's like the Kiss Farewell Tour. 

(That one's for Stadler.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:56:41 AM

Don't worry, you've made it clear. I am an asshole. I've removed everyone from my Facebook, even, and put in a request begging for bosk to delete my account. Nobody will deal with me ever again. I am gone. Sorry, again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2021, 09:59:10 AM

Quote from: The Walrus on March 11, 2021, 09:56:41 AM

Don't worry, you've made it clear. I am an asshole. I've removed everyone from my Facebook, even, and put in a request for bosk to delete my account. Nobody will deal with me ever again. I am gone. Sorry, again.

W in T actual F dude.  Is this for reals?   :lol
I had an ex-girlfriend that used to do that...every time it was perceived people didn't like her, she over reacted and said she was going to cut everyone out and threw a pity party.  You need to sack up man.

If you kept your receipt, I would try to get a refund on that new "worldview" of yours, if it espouses this type of reaction.

No but seriously, that reaction is totally not necessary. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 11, 2021, 10:01:33 AM

Next time I'm at work and Kiki actually shows up for her shift, I'm going to tell her this was all her fault.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 10:04:52 AM

Mike, what are you doing?  You're making a Mountain out of a mole hill.

Unfriending?  Why? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 11, 2021, 10:01:33 AM

Next time I'm at work and Kiki actually shows up for her shift, I'm going to tell her this was all her fault.

 :lol


Show her the thread lmao

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 11, 2021, 10:19:55 AM

(https://i.imgflip.com/mn1p7.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 11:08:23 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 11, 2021, 10:01:33 AM

Next time I'm at work and Kiki actually shows up for her shift, I'm going to tell her this was all her fault.

 :lol


Show her the thread lmao

Let her know many of us think she's a bitch   :rollin

also, are we cancelling the word bitch in this thread?  I know it technically refers to a female, but never really thought it was sexist as people call males bitches too.  What do I know, I don't typically get offended easily.

Also, did Walrus block me on facebook?  Kind of over reacting to a disagreement that in reality has nothing to do with our friendship.   ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 11, 2021, 11:12:37 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 11:08:23 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 11, 2021, 10:01:33 AM

Next time I'm at work and Kiki actually shows up for her shift, I'm going to tell her this was all her fault.

 :lol


Show her the thread lmao

Let her know many of us think she's a bitch   :rollin

also, are we cancelling the word bitch in this thread?  I know it technically refers to a female, but never really thought it was sexist as people call males bitches too.  What do I know, I don't typically get offended easily.

Also, did Walrus block me on facebook?  Kind of over reacting to a disagreement that in reality has nothing to do with our friendship.   ???

It would seem he went scorched earth with all DTFrs that were FB friends too.

:dunno:

Also, everyone should watch the "Bitch" episode from the History of Swear Words for a refresher.  :biggrin:  Entertaining AND informative.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 11:19:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 11:08:23 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM

Quote from: Chino on March 11, 2021, 10:01:33 AM

Next time I'm at work and Kiki actually shows up for her shift, I'm going to tell her this was all her fault.

 :lol


Show her the thread lmao

Let her know many of us think she's a bitch   :rollin

also, are we cancelling the word bitch in this thread?  I know it technically refers to a female, but never really thought it was sexist as people call males bitches too.  What do I know, I don't typically get offended easily.

Also, did Walrus block me on facebook?  Kind of over reacting to a disagreement that in reality has nothing to do with our friendship.   ???

He blocked me too. I don't blame him either.

People can have emotional outbursts. Nothing wrong with that. But when you keep pestering that person, instead of ignoring, it will escalate. Just one thing can trigger a set of emotions, past or present.

I just want him to know, I hope the best for him and his endeavors. And to hopefully be able to physically chat at ProgPower this year.

But, Mental Health is being ignored in this pandemic and is just being noticed because Kids were killing themselves in California, and many other people are now acting upon these feelings and emotions, Mental Health issues because of being locked in, being shunned or labeled, especially if one were to accidentally forget a mask, or some other stupid superiority complex a person has because they feel they're doing the right thing for everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 11, 2021, 11:22:00 AM

I have to say, I'm kind of worried about that Walrus dude a little bit.  What the actual fuck did I just read?   :justjen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 11, 2021, 11:26:48 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 10:04:52 AM

Mike, what are you doing?  You're making a Mountain out of a mole hill.

Unfriending?  Why?

This is why I think there is something more going on here.  His reactions are WAY over the top and it was like he was intentionally searching for reasons to continue the argument but also to make sure he was positioning himself as having apparently been bullied or run out of here by the crowd, but, it's so out of proportion to then go and unfriend everyone (including me and I didn't even post once throughout this entire shit show!) I hope he's OK.  He always seemed like a nice kid, this whole display was out of character from the dude I've interacted with here and on FB.


 :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 11:28:22 AM

Ben, this wasn't about a girl forgetting a mask. She knew she had the virus,  posted on Facebook and then still went to work. 

No regard for others health. It's irresponsible.

On Mike, I wish he didn't scorch the earth.  His argument started as one thing and shifted. I wasn't even mad originally. 

Then he went on the attack at me.  I defended him before to Bosk1.  You would think our friendship would stop him from digging in. I still don't understand why he was protecting this girl's actions.

I just hope he gets help with some issues he seems to be going through that would allow him to lash out at friends.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 11:50:29 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 11:28:22 AM

Ben, this wasn't about a girl forgetting a mask. She knew she had the virus,  posted on Facebook and then still went to work. 

My post wasn't at that Stupid Girl whom stupidly posted she was positive on Facebook.


And with Regards to Mike, I am not going to say he has issues. I just hope the best for him since he decided to block us all after this interaction.

And it seemed he wasn't protecting her actions. He was just trying to understand for himself, why she would do what she did.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 11:53:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 11:50:29 AM

And it seemed he wasn't protecting her actions. He was just trying to understand for himself, why she would do what she did.

I think it's important to understand why people do the things they do, but it doesn't change the facts that she did something potentially extremely harmful towards others and knowing she did it.  I'd be curious of her reasons too, just doesn't change what we do know.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 11, 2021, 11:58:13 AM

Fucking BITCH!!  :P






I kid, because I care  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 11, 2021, 12:09:58 PM

Wasn't expecting all of this when I decided to catch-up on the rona thread

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 12:10:17 PM

Ben, why even try to understand something irrational that doesn't affect one's self?  J don't need to know why she did it.  I'd say Brian would since he is directly involved.

To me if you worry about everything on this planet like an instance like this is harmful to the mind.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 12:12:22 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 11:53:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 11:50:29 AM

And it seemed he wasn't protecting her actions. He was just trying to understand for himself, why she would do what she did.

I think it's important to understand why people do the things they do, but it doesn't change the facts that she did something potentially extremely harmful towards others and knowing she did it.  I'd be curious of her reasons too, just doesn't change what we do know.

Oh yeah, from what we know, she is a dumbass.

What I find even more interesting though is...Would you have even known she was positive if she had not posted her results for the world to see?

And Cool Chris brought up that other point as well. That guaranteed there are people doing exactly this, going to work positive without telling their manager/boss. For whatever reasons, I wouldn't know.

What I want to know is, is it the honor code style of it's up to the Employee to notify their Boss or Manager of their results? If so, then that is interesting all together...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 12:17:45 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 12:12:22 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 11:53:19 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 11, 2021, 11:50:29 AM

And it seemed he wasn't protecting her actions. He was just trying to understand for himself, why she would do what she did.

I think it's important to understand why people do the things they do, but it doesn't change the facts that she did something potentially extremely harmful towards others and knowing she did it.  I'd be curious of her reasons too, just doesn't change what we do know.

Oh yeah, from what we know, she is a dumbass.

What I find even more interesting though is...Would you have even known she was positive if she had not posted her results for the world to see?

And Cool Chris brought up that other point as well. That guaranteed there are people doing exactly this, going to work positive without telling their manager/boss. For whatever reasons, I wouldn't know.

What I want to know is, is it the honor code style of it's up to the Employee to notify their Boss or Manager of their results? If so, then that is interesting all together...

Yea, the facebook post makes it interesting because it proves she knew.  If she knew she was positive and didnt share that, while I think she would be an ass to go to work, I might refrain from calling her an idiot because she was being smart about being sneaky even if I think it's a terrible decision. 

Where I work, I have to sign a form saying I have no symptoms and no known recent contact with a covid positive before entering the building every day (and a temp scan).  For me, if I did what she did I would probably have my ability to enter the building removed and therefore very likely lose my job.  I don't expect a grocery store to have such a set up so it's likely the honor system. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 11, 2021, 12:18:32 PM

I'm sure there are people who do it because they're just selfish assholes who don't care about anyone but themselves, but something tells me that more often than not people go to work knowingly sick with the 'rona because they literally live paycheck to paycheck and if they miss any hours they can't pay their bills. 


I am fortunate that I've not had to face such financial instability in a long time, but I know for every guy like me there are 50 who can't pay the rent this month because their hours at work got cut back through no fault of their own. 


It puts massive amounts of emotional stress on people and when that happens you get a lot of lashing out and seemingly irrational behavior.


There's an old saying around the 12-step program halls that goes like this:  Hurt people hurt people. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 12:33:29 PM

I definitely think there should be assistance for those who need to be out of work due to covid.  That's a deeper health issue wtih this country that people don't get sick time, or specifically, covid sick time funded by the government during a pandemic.  I know my job we have to code our time sheets if we are out sick and there's a seperate code if you have to be out for covid.  (I'm not sure the reason other than to have that statistic) but that protection should be for everyone IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:33:59 PM

Over 24hrs since second Pfizer shot and zero side effects. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 12:41:49 PM

I had the Moderna vaccine and I'm exhausted today.   Legs are jelly and I feel drained.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 11, 2021, 12:44:32 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:33:59 PM

Over 24hrs since second Pfizer shot and zero side effects. Keeping my fingers crossed.

That's great to hear.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 12:33:29 PM

I definitely think there should be assistance for those who need to be out of work due to covid.  That's a deeper health issue wtih this country that people don't get sick time, or specifically, covid sick time funded by the government during a pandemic.  I know my job we have to code our time sheets if we are out sick and there's a seperate code if you have to be out for covid.  (I'm not sure the reason other than to have that statistic) but that protection should be for everyone IMO.

Here in NYC, I don't know how it works, but you get an extra 5 sick day provided by the state or city. What employers do so you don't have an excess of sick time is that those days get added to your vacation time to use as you please (they count as 5 personal days).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:47:15 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 12:41:49 PM

I had the Moderna vaccine and I'm exhausted today.   Legs are jelly and I feel drained.

The exhaustion i felt when i had Covid was like nothing I’ve experienced before. It was so weird.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 12:52:29 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:47:15 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 12:41:49 PM

I had the Moderna vaccine and I'm exhausted today.   Legs are jelly and I feel drained.

The exhaustion i felt when i had Covid was like nothing I’ve experienced before. It was so weird.

Thankfully I've been luck not to get it. I remember you were saying Gary that you were in bed a ton.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 01:02:42 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 12:52:29 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:47:15 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 12:41:49 PM

I had the Moderna vaccine and I'm exhausted today.   Legs are jelly and I feel drained.

The exhaustion i felt when i had Covid was like nothing I’ve experienced before. It was so weird.

Thankfully I've been luck not to get it. I remember you were saying Gary that you were in bed a ton.

Yep. It was a lot of laying around. Zero energy, felt like gravity was working on my body at five times it’s normal pull.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on March 11, 2021, 01:04:32 PM

It was really weird. Can't speak for anyone else and I didn't really get into details when I was ill, but sometimes it took me up to 40 minutes from realizing I'd like to drink some water to actually gather some will to get up from bed and get some water.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 01:11:19 PM

Your so drained I bet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2021, 01:17:51 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 01:11:19 PM

Your so drained I bet.

I bet you think this thread is about you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 11, 2021, 01:20:34 PM

Quote from: Evermind on March 11, 2021, 01:04:32 PM

It was really weird. Can't speak for anyone else and I didn't really get into details when I was ill, but sometimes it took me up to 40 minutes from realizing I'd like to drink some water to actually gather some will to get up from bed and get some water.

I believe it - as gmiller alluded, I felt like I was on a planet where gravity was twice that of the earth! I would lay in bed just staring at the ceiling and if I needed to go to the bathroom, I'd have to move on leg off the bed, 5 minutes later, the other leg was off and it was all I could do to push myself off!!

Good lord - it sucked!  :tdwn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on March 11, 2021, 01:21:28 PM

Just want to echo the concern for Firewings/Kattlelox/Walrus. I have noticed that he just has not been himself here since his disagreement with bosk a few months back. His posts do seem out of character. He has mentioned before his desire to have bosk delete him.

I loved following his roulettes and interacting with him in the music forum. Would be a shame to lose his insight and contributions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 11, 2021, 01:37:27 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2021, 01:17:51 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 01:11:19 PM

Your so drained I bet.

I bet you think this thread is about you.

You're so drained!!!
I bet you think this thread is about you, don't you, don't you?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2021, 01:38:21 PM

:tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 11, 2021, 01:39:11 PM

If that gets stuck in my head I'm driving up to Sacramento and leaving a bag of flaming poop on your porch

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 11, 2021, 01:39:54 PM

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2021, 01:40:14 PM

:rollin

If you do, knock and come in for some grub before heading home.  I'm vaxxed, so...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 11, 2021, 01:40:57 PM

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 01:52:01 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 11, 2021, 01:58:39 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 12:41:49 PM

I had the Moderna vaccine and I'm exhausted today.   Legs are jelly and I feel drained.

My wife got the second dose of Pfizer yesterday and she is exhausted today with body aches. She didn't feel much yesterday but it really hit today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 11, 2021, 02:04:48 PM

Joe, is that first or second dose?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 02:08:52 PM

First.  I'm not hurting at all but I have no energy right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 11, 2021, 02:57:43 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:33:59 PM

Over 24hrs since second Pfizer shot and zero side effects. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Not surprised, I’m hearing those that have had the virus have very little reaction to the vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 11, 2021, 03:03:23 PM

I don’t know Katt/Walrus outside of his posts here, but ya, somethings seems different. Hope the guy is alright.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 03:25:11 PM

Quote from: T-ski on March 11, 2021, 02:57:43 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:33:59 PM

Over 24hrs since second Pfizer shot and zero side effects. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Not surprised, I’m hearing those that have had the virus have very little reaction to the vaccine.

I've wondered this, but hadn't actually heard or read anything to come to a conclusion.  I'm curious how I react when I eventually get it because I believe I had caught it over a year ago, but that was before people thought it was in the US so I have no proof of that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 11, 2021, 03:33:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2021, 12:33:59 PM

Over 24hrs since second Pfizer shot and zero side effects. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Good to hear!  :tup :tup

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 12:41:49 PM

I had the Moderna vaccine and I'm exhausted today.   Legs are jelly and I feel drained.

Just relax and get busy with the facts.  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 03:35:41 PM

I could not make it to Rome from Nome right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 11, 2021, 04:47:08 PM

There's nothing wrong with The Walrus. He made the decision that certain interactions here were toxic in his life and nothing positive or beneficial came from arguing with certain people. Perfectly understandable IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 11, 2021, 05:59:33 PM

Quote from: emtee on March 11, 2021, 04:47:08 PM

There's nothing wrong with The Walrus. He made the decision that certain interactions here were toxic in his life and nothing positive or beneficial came from arguing with certain people. Perfectly understandable IMO.

If he feels this place is toxic and/or bad for him, then yes, he should leave for his own well being and no one should have negative feelings for that (other than missing a fan of a lot of the same things as us all).  However, I didn't read anyone really being personal with him while he took personal shots at a few of us.   I think he's a cool dude, spent 4 nights in an apartment with him for Progpower 2019 and we had a good time.  I didn't agree with him here, but I didn't see it as an ending of a friendship.  Actually, I think it's the first time someone I viewed as a friend blocked me on social media. So that's the part I don't understand and actually makes me feel some concern.  I think I even mentioned here that we missed him when he left. I do wish the best for him even if we don't see eye to eye.  I'll gladly have a drink with him at progpower 2021 if it happens and we all can get there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 06:07:59 PM

Quote from: emtee on March 11, 2021, 04:47:08 PM

There's nothing wrong with The Walrus. He made the decision that certain interactions here were toxic in his life and nothing positive or beneficial came from arguing with certain people. Perfectly understandable IMO.

I agree with cram. Chad and I vouched for him to get him back on DTF. He went out of his way to upset his friends. Even when we apologized if we upset him he went on the attack.

I didn't want this. I loved my conversations with Mike. Just because this one disagreement happened doesn't mean you blow up your world.

I don't agree with many of my friends, doesn't mean I can't still be friends.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 11, 2021, 06:26:57 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 11, 2021, 06:07:59 PM

Quote from: emtee on March 11, 2021, 04:47:08 PM

There's nothing wrong with The Walrus. He made the decision that certain interactions here were toxic in his life and nothing positive or beneficial came from arguing with certain people. Perfectly understandable IMO.

I agree with cram. Chad and I vouched for him to get him back on DTF. He went out of his way to upset his friends. Even when we apologized if we upset him he went on the attack.

I didn't want this. I loved my conversations with Mike. Just because this one disagreement happened doesn't mean you blow up your world.

I don't agree with many of my friends, doesn't mean I can't still be friends.

No u....


Brohug?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 06:32:17 PM

I'd rather snuggle with you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 11, 2021, 06:40:39 PM

What the hell am I walking into?

And how do I get in on it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 11, 2021, 06:43:58 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 11, 2021, 01:40:14 PM

:rollin

If you do, knock and come in and cook some grub before heading home.  I'm vaxxed, so...

FTFY

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 11, 2021, 06:46:31 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 11, 2021, 06:40:39 PM

What the hell am I walking into?

And how do I get in on it?

You just did. You're the middle of our Double Stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dave_Manchester on March 12, 2021, 04:59:08 AM

*decided to delete my post, it's not my place*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 12, 2021, 06:11:18 AM

Dave, I think that was a very well thought out post that addresses a real concern for the mental health of a friend, and it was done in a positive and respectful way.  If you don't want to keep it in the general forum, I would hope you share it via PM with the people here (and other forums) that you know are his friends.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2021, 06:14:29 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 12, 2021, 06:11:18 AM

Dave, I think that was a very well thought out post that addresses a real concern for the mental health of a friend, and it was done in a positive and respectful way.  If you don't want to keep it in the general forum, I would hope you share it via PM with the people here (and other forums) that you know are his friends.

Agreed.  I'm glad I was on this morning to see it.  Brings about some more context and perspective.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 12, 2021, 06:41:53 AM

It sure did Dave.  We all didn't want Mike to leave.  I just wish he would open up to us. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 09:08:05 AM

I don't understand how Biden can say by May 1st, vaccines will be available to anyone who wants them and then also say by July 4th we might be able to have small family gatherings.  If the vaccines are as advertised, it would mean by Memorial Day we should be fully open IMO. 

NJ announced on March 15th, indoor dining can go up to 50%.  <- this slow rollout of opening back up fully is what I can get behind.  Right now indoor venues for sports / entertainment are only at 10%, waiting to see that one go up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 12, 2021, 09:15:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 09:08:05 AM

I don't understand how Biden can say by May 1st, vaccines will be available to anyone who wants them and then also say by July 4th we might be able to have small family gatherings.  If the vaccines are as advertised, it would mean by Memorial Day we should be fully open IMO. 

NJ announced on March 15th, indoor dining can go up to 50%.  <- this slow rollout of opening back up fully is what I can get behind.  Right now indoor venues for sports / entertainment are only at 10%, waiting to see that one go up.

Availability doesn’t equate to them going into peoples arms.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 12, 2021, 09:21:31 AM

Quote from: T-ski on March 12, 2021, 09:15:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 09:08:05 AM

I don't understand how Biden can say by May 1st, vaccines will be available to anyone who wants them and then also say by July 4th we might be able to have small family gatherings.  If the vaccines are as advertised, it would mean by Memorial Day we should be fully open IMO. 

NJ announced on March 15th, indoor dining can go up to 50%.  <- this slow rollout of opening back up fully is what I can get behind.  Right now indoor venues for sports / entertainment are only at 10%, waiting to see that one go up.

Availability doesn’t equate to them going into peoples arms.

Yep....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 09:27:55 AM

Yeah there's rumblings of having people in the stands for the SF Giants home opener. Considering the supposed 'oppressive tactics' of Newsom that he's currently under a recall for, we're kind of on pace with the rest of the more reserved states.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 12, 2021, 09:33:30 AM

Yeah, the Rangers are going to be at 100% capacity for their home opener with the requirements that everyone is masked. (yeah right  :yeahright) but Jerry Jones wants full capacity for the Cowboys home opener which Sept. sounds more reasonable to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 12, 2021, 09:34:30 AM

Part of it is also the timeline from the point of getting the vaccine, until it is fully effective.

Moderna and Pfizer is about 6-8 weeks. I would assume J&J is more on the 3-4 week range. If vaccines are available to everyone by May 1st, but someone people can't get an appointment until June then yeah, July 4th sounds about right for those have are fully vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 09:38:17 AM

Quote from: T-ski on March 12, 2021, 09:15:32 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 09:08:05 AM

I don't understand how Biden can say by May 1st, vaccines will be available to anyone who wants them and then also say by July 4th we might be able to have small family gatherings.  If the vaccines are as advertised, it would mean by Memorial Day we should be fully open IMO. 

NJ announced on March 15th, indoor dining can go up to 50%.  <- this slow rollout of opening back up fully is what I can get behind.  Right now indoor venues for sports / entertainment are only at 10%, waiting to see that one go up.

Availability doesn’t equate to them going into peoples arms.

Yea that's true, but there's little reason to think anyone that wants one, will get one before the summer. We are also currently administering over 75% of the vaccines in supply daily, we seem to actually have the capacity to do more as more of the mass vaccination sites ramp up.  At over 30 million Americans fully vaccinated right now, we may actually be at herd immunity by May without everyone vaccinated.  Just seems saying July 4th we can have small gatherings is a scare tactic or just flat out wrong (many Americans are and have always been having small gatherings regardless).  We should be able to do much more by then if things stay the course.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2021, 09:40:24 AM

Maybe he’s just not trying to promise something he can’t. Better to expect less and get more than to expect a lot and be let down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 09:41:12 AM

I thought it was every adult, not every person. Regardless, no one should be talking about any "return to normalcy" until every kid is in a classroom.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 09:43:03 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 12, 2021, 09:33:30 AM

Yeah, the Rangers are going to be at 100% capacity for their home opener with the requirements that everyone is masked. (yeah right  :yeahright) but Jerry Jones wants full capacity for the Cowboys home opener which Sept. sounds more reasonable to me.

If the vaccine rollout goes like it seems to be, then I'd be pretty good with full opening by September. This is also assuming a good deal of the people who for whatever reason don't want to get jabbed change there minds as well, which I feel will happen as more people get it with relatively no side effects

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 09:41:12 AM

I thought it was every adult, not every person. Regardless, no one should be talking about any "return to normalcy" until every kid is in a classroom.

Id bet any amount of money that next school year will start full.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 12, 2021, 09:47:05 AM

Wow, what a shitshow this thread turned into for a while there.

Over the actions of some stupid bitch.

*shrugs*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 10:11:57 AM

 :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2021, 10:35:56 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 12, 2021, 09:47:05 AM

Wow, what a shitshow this thread turned into for a while there.

Over the actions of some stupid bitch.

*shrugs*

OMG, that's it.  Kiki is Janet1234!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 10:50:43 AM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 09:41:12 AM

I thought it was every adult, not every person. Regardless, no one should be talking about any "return to normalcy" until every kid is in a classroom.

Yea, my bad I think its adults.  And I expect kids in the classroom by the fall.  I read a lot of teachers will be mandatory to get the vaccine and they are next on line in NJ so no reason by the fall the teachers can't be back in the schools.  Kids aren't overall a real issue wtih the virus so they should be fine to go back with all the staff safe. 

Penn State says they expect full stadiums for fall football. 

Quote from: Adami on March 12, 2021, 09:40:24 AM

Maybe he’s just not trying to promise something he can’t. Better to expect less and get more than to expect a lot and be let down.

Likely the case, but the science seems to suggest otherwise which is why I'm getting tired of hearing only the negative from leadership, there's a lot of positive and our goals should reflect that.  Not "small gatherings at home" still after all the vulnerable will be vaccinated and almost everyone else who wants one will be.   Just going to see more states act like Texas IMO if the downward trends continue on all key data points.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 12, 2021, 11:25:00 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 12, 2021, 10:35:56 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 12, 2021, 09:47:05 AM

Wow, what a shitshow this thread turned into for a while there.

Over the actions of some stupid bitch.

*shrugs*

OMG, that's it.  Kiki is Janet1234!!

:lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2021, 11:27:41 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 10:50:43 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 12, 2021, 09:40:24 AM

Maybe he’s just not trying to promise something he can’t. Better to expect less and get more than to expect a lot and be let down.

Likely the case, but the science seems to suggest otherwise which is why I'm getting tired of hearing only the negative from leadership, there's a lot of positive and our goals should reflect that.  Not "small gatherings at home" still after all the vulnerable will be vaccinated and almost everyone else who wants one will be.   Just going to see more states act like Texas IMO if the downward trends continue on all key data points.

I understand and agree that we're all feeling overwhelmed by the negativity and hopelessness and we could all use some real hope and inspiration.

That said, we need to remember that his reactions come after a year of "We're all going to be fine, no one should worry, next month it'll all go back to normal, no one is in any real danger." He's being cautious and very very conservative in estimations. While not super uplifting, I do think it's an appropriate measured way of addressing things.

If things get better quicker, cool. You know?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 12, 2021, 11:38:31 AM

Everybody I'd think has to be fatigued right now and is clamoring for some normalcy.   Fatigued from the constant anxiety.  I know I am. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:29:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on March 12, 2021, 11:27:41 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 10:50:43 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 12, 2021, 09:40:24 AM

Maybe he’s just not trying to promise something he can’t. Better to expect less and get more than to expect a lot and be let down.

Likely the case, but the science seems to suggest otherwise which is why I'm getting tired of hearing only the negative from leadership, there's a lot of positive and our goals should reflect that.  Not "small gatherings at home" still after all the vulnerable will be vaccinated and almost everyone else who wants one will be.   Just going to see more states act like Texas IMO if the downward trends continue on all key data points.

I understand and agree that we're all feeling overwhelmed by the negativity and hopelessness and we could all use some real hope and inspiration.

That said, we need to remember that his reactions come after a year of "We're all going to be fine, no one should worry, next month it'll all go back to normal, no one is in any real danger." He's being cautious and very very conservative in estimations. While not super uplifting, I do think it's an appropriate measured way of addressing things.

If things get better quicker, cool. You know?

Sure, but aren't we supposed to follow the science?  Wasn't that what people wanted after what we heard from our leaders last year?  The fatigue is definitely a large factor here and it's impacting me too. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:31:03 PM

Biden followed the first rule of politics: Under promise and over deliver.  That's leadership 101

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:37:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:31:03 PM

Biden followed the first rule of politics: Under promise and over deliver.  That's leadership 101

Just like the million shots in a 100 days, was going to happen already. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 12, 2021, 12:41:24 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:29:27 PM

Sure, but aren't we supposed to follow the science?  Wasn't that what people wanted after what we heard from our leaders last year?  The fatigue is definitely a large factor here and it's impacting me too.

Follow the science, yes; not get ahead of it.  In 3 months, the US is doing great at getting 10% fully vaccinated, and a shit-ton more with their first dose.  Having enough supply is all he committed to - which is better than what most nations on the planet can commit to (looking at you, Canada  >:(... we're so fucked up here).  Herd immunity doesn't happen until what ... certainly greater than 50% of the population is vaccinated.

Endorsement of widespread SAFE gatherings by July 4th would be fantastic, and should be considered a massive win.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:37:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:31:03 PM

Biden followed the first rule of politics: Under promise and over deliver.  That's leadership 101

Just like the million shots in a 100 days, was going to happen already. 

Wasnt it 100M?  Which at the time in January seemed pretty aggressive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 12:47:20 PM

Yet he's on pace to hit it in 60.  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:48:19 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 12, 2021, 12:41:24 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:29:27 PM

Sure, but aren't we supposed to follow the science?  Wasn't that what people wanted after what we heard from our leaders last year?  The fatigue is definitely a large factor here and it's impacting me too.

Follow the science, yes; not get ahead of it.  In 3 months, the US is doing great at getting 10% fully vaccinated, and a shit-ton more with their first dose.  Having enough supply is all he committed to - which is better than what most nations on the planet can commit to (looking at you, Canada  >:(... we're so fucked up here).  Herd immunity doesn't happen until what ... certainly greater than 50% of the population is vaccinated.

Endorsement of widespread SAFE gatherings by July 4th would be fantastic, and should be considered a massive win.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:37:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:31:03 PM

Biden followed the first rule of politics: Under promise and over deliver.  That's leadership 101

Just like the million shots in a 100 days, was going to happen already. 

Wasnt it 100M?  Which at the time in January seemed pretty aggressive.

I had edit that twice before posting and still got it wrong  :lol yes, it was aggressive but the numbers suggested even back then it was going to likely happen.  We will surpass that and Biden will look good by saying it so I was pretty much agreeing with Kirk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:49:40 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:37:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:31:03 PM

Biden followed the first rule of politics: Under promise and over deliver.  That's leadership 101

Just like the million shots in a 100 days, was going to happen already.

Precisely


You never promise anything that isn't already 100% guaranteed to happen. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:50:34 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:48:19 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 12, 2021, 12:41:24 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:29:27 PM

Sure, but aren't we supposed to follow the science?  Wasn't that what people wanted after what we heard from our leaders last year?  The fatigue is definitely a large factor here and it's impacting me too.

Follow the science, yes; not get ahead of it.  In 3 months, the US is doing great at getting 10% fully vaccinated, and a shit-ton more with their first dose.  Having enough supply is all he committed to - which is better than what most nations on the planet can commit to (looking at you, Canada  >:( ... we're so fucked up here).  Herd immunity doesn't happen until what ... certainly greater than 50% of the population is vaccinated.

Endorsement of widespread SAFE gatherings by July 4th would be fantastic, and should be considered a massive win.

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:37:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 12:31:03 PM

Biden followed the first rule of politics: Under promise and over deliver.  That's leadership 101

Just like the million shots in a 100 days, was going to happen already. 

Wasnt it 100M?  Which at the time in January seemed pretty aggressive.

I had edit that twice before posting and still got it wrong  :lol yes, it was aggressive but the numbers suggested even back then it was going to likely happen.  We will surpass that and Biden will look good by saying it so I was pretty much agreeing with Kirk.

I knew what you meant  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 12, 2021, 12:50:57 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 12, 2021, 12:41:24 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 12:29:27 PM

Sure, but aren't we supposed to follow the science?  Wasn't that what people wanted after what we heard from our leaders last year?  The fatigue is definitely a large factor here and it's impacting me too.

Follow the science, yes; not get ahead of it.  In 3 months, the US is doing great at getting 10% fully vaccinated, and a shit-ton more with their first dose.  Having enough supply is all he committed to - which is better than what most nations on the planet can commit to (looking at you, Canada  >:(... we're so fucked up here).  Herd immunity doesn't happen until what ... certainly greater than 50% of the population is vaccinated.

Endorsement of widespread SAFE gatherings by July 4th would be fantastic, and should be considered a massive win.

I'm pretty sure herd immunity with COVID is up in the 80% to 90% range.

But the science was about protecting our infrastructure; we're past that.  Now it's morphed, which I guess is fine, but there ought to be at least some acknowledgement of that shift, and some sympathy for those that don't support the shift.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 01:40:46 PM

From Johns Hopkins University Medical Center (https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/achieving-herd-immunity-with-covid19.html)

Quote

Depending how contagious an infection is, usually 50% to 90% of a population needs immunity to achieve herd immunity.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just posting what I saw on Herd Immunity.  I think I saw Dr. Fauci mention 75% immunity would be enough for Covid-19




Also, I just scheduled my vaccination for April 6th at 10am  :hat


(https://media1.tenor.com/images/5eae48e6375e73467d9a46698ca234dd/tenor.gif?itemid=14976918)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 01:51:01 PM

Nice! and also I read similar to the 50-90%, but that % is combined of vaccination and prior infection.  I believe that is why we are likely closer to herd immunity than just looking at the 10% of the population fully vaccinated stat. I've been pretty much off on all my numbers today  :facepalm: (so take my numbers for granted) but if 30M infected, 30M vaccinated, and estimated about 4 times more have been infected but not documented, that puts the US around 50% already.  Of course there's a large amount of guess work there and probably significant overlap between infected and vaccinated, so I'd say we may be closer to 40% than 50% to be safe.  Still, that's a big dent in getting us close to where we need to be.  We should get there in a couple more months as a lot of experts have predicted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 02:31:16 PM

My brother's wife is a nurse going on 30 years now.  She said herd immunity will make itself known almost immediately because there will be a sudden and precipitous decline in new cases that will rapidly accelerate to where within a month or so new cases will be down to a trickle.  I think there is some merit to the idea that we may be underestimating how many people already have antibodies because they were sick with covid.   I don't think we'll be there by July 4th though, that's just a little over 90 days away.  I think Labor Day is far more realistic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 12, 2021, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 02:31:16 PM

My brother's wife is a nurse going on 30 years now.  She said herd immunity will make itself known almost immediately because there will be a sudden and precipitous decline in new cases that will rapidly accelerate to where within a month or so new cases will be down to a trickle.  I think there is some merit to the idea that we may be underestimating how many people already have antibodies because they were sick with covid.   I don't think we'll be there by July 4th though, that's just a little over 90 days away.  I think Labor Day is far more realistic.

Well look at the BIG brain on your brother's wife!  :hat

JK - that was a Pulp Fiction reference but I understand and agree that Labor Day seems more realistic.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 02:43:38 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 12, 2021, 02:31:16 PM

My brother's wife is a nurse going on 30 years now.  She said herd immunity will make itself known almost immediately because there will be a sudden and precipitous decline in new cases that will rapidly accelerate to where within a month or so new cases will be down to a trickle.  I think there is some merit to the idea that we may be underestimating how many people already have antibodies because they were sick with covid.   I don't think we'll be there by July 4th though, that's just a little over 90 days away.  I think Labor Day is far more realistic.

You may be right so I'm not arguing, just looking at the numbers. I'd have to do some serious math that I no longer know to figure out the curve of these graphs to predict when the numbers will get close to 0 (I don't expect 0 to ever actually happen, but we can get to a very manageable small amount) but we went from ~130k hospitalized on January 1st to ~46k hospitalized on March 1st.  That's a huge drop in 2 months from when vaccines started being administered.  I think there's a lot more to it than just the vaccines (like no holidays after Jan 1st so less gatherings likely helped big time).  But I think it's possible we can see the significant drop continue in the next two months. (we are currently ~40k hospitalized).

Having said that, this is also why I don't think full opening up is the right move.  Slowly opening seems like a better option so we don't see an uptick in the 7 day rolling average.  I don't want us to have any setbacks here because the momentum is really strong right now.

in other news, my parents got the J and J just a couple hours ago.  I'm relieved for them especially considering they have both been very on the fence about getting the vaccine at all. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 02:51:10 PM

Not to start a massive debate....but another big piece of this is the way Covid is being reported now. The vaccines bring a certain 'hope' with it and.....this is the debatable part.....the fact that trump isn't the president any longer and that biden is.....the stories and reporting will be more positive. I don't want or need to argue that point with anyone....if you don't believe that then we aren't going to change each others minds.

But the way this is presented through the media has a drastic effect on all our mental health and approach as well....which in turn affects our physical health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 02:55:47 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 02:51:10 PM

Not to start a massive debate....but another big piece of this is the way Covid is being reported now. The vaccines bring a certain 'hope' with it and.....this is the debatable part.....the fact that trump isn't the president any longer and that biden is.....the stories and reporting will be more positive. I don't want or need to argue that point with anyone....if you don't believe that then we aren't going to change each others minds.

But the way this is presented through the media has a drastic effect on all our mental health and approach as well....which in turn affects our physical health.

I'm not sure I agree with that though, as my point earlier about Biden's comments.  You have to just look at the numbers and take everything else out of the equation IMO. 

Also, we can rip on Trump all day long with legit criticism, but if there's anything he should get credit for it's operation warp speed IMO.  I believe that is why we are where we are.  There's certainly lots of things we could have done better, but to not recognize some of our achievements seems wrong to me even if there's lots of bad moves along the way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 12, 2021, 02:56:37 PM

I know one thing: I'm really tired of seeing stock footage of needles going into arms 5-10 times, every single local news broadcast, every single half hour, on every single network, for the last 6 months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 03:03:20 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 02:55:47 PM

but if there's anything he should get credit for it's operation warp speed IMO.  I believe that is why we are where we are.  There's certainly lots of things we could have done better, but to not recognize some of our achievements seems wrong to me even if there's lots of bad moves along the way.

You can 100% guarantee he will not get any credit for it.....just take a look at the address last night and his press secretary's noticeable effort every day to make sure she dodges and ignores the opportunities to give credit where it's due.  He rightfully should, but he won't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 03:08:11 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 03:03:20 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 02:55:47 PM

but if there's anything he should get credit for it's operation warp speed IMO.  I believe that is why we are where we are.  There's certainly lots of things we could have done better, but to not recognize some of our achievements seems wrong to me even if there's lots of bad moves along the way.

You can 100% guarantee he will not get any credit for it.....just take a look at the address last night and his press secretary's noticeable effort every day to make sure she dodges and ignores the opportunities to give credit where it's due.  He rightfully should, but he won't.

The media may not give him credit, but this guy on Biden's team did.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-covid-adviser-tip-hat-204113180.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-covid-adviser-tip-hat-204113180.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 03:27:48 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 03:08:11 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 03:03:20 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 12, 2021, 02:55:47 PM

but if there's anything he should get credit for it's operation warp speed IMO.  I believe that is why we are where we are.  There's certainly lots of things we could have done better, but to not recognize some of our achievements seems wrong to me even if there's lots of bad moves along the way.

You can 100% guarantee he will not get any credit for it.....just take a look at the address last night and his press secretary's noticeable effort every day to make sure she dodges and ignores the opportunities to give credit where it's due.  He rightfully should, but he won't.

Nice. And, if this were any other situation.....like say obama had followed bush or bush following clinton......any of the past presidents would have given the credit to the guy who made it happen. Problem is, if biden were to publicly say something 'good' about trump.....trump would exploit that to the thousandth degree.....far right folks would go nuts.....far left folks would call for biden to be institutionalized.....it's just crazy.
The media may not give him credit, but this guy on Biden's team did.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-covid-adviser-tip-hat-204113180.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-covid-adviser-tip-hat-204113180.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 12, 2021, 04:38:30 PM

just want to say I think the effect on the country’s mood wasn’t just because the way news and media in general reported on trump (though I’m not discounting it) it was also very much Trump himself and the fact he’s gone is not negligible. Again not just because there’s less reporting on him but that he himself is unable to actively mess with you(and the world)as much as he did for 4+ years. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 05:37:14 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 12, 2021, 04:38:30 PM

just want to say I think the effect on the country’s mood wasn’t just because the way news and media in general reported on trump (though I’m not discounting it) it was also very much Trump himself and the fact he’s gone is not negligible. Again not just because there’s less reporting on him but that he himself is unable to actively mess with you(and the world)as much as he did for 4+ years.

I 100% agree. The dude invited criticism, he was purposeful in being a defunct human.....and America needed his personality out of the limelight. His toxicity nullified anything good he accomplished by a country mile.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 05:45:32 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2021, 05:37:14 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 12, 2021, 04:38:30 PM

just want to say I think the effect on the country’s mood wasn’t just because the way news and media in general reported on trump (though I’m not discounting it) it was also very much Trump himself and the fact he’s gone is not negligible. Again not just because there’s less reporting on him but that he himself is unable to actively mess with you(and the world)as much as he did for 4+ years.

I 100% agree. The dude invited criticism, he was purposeful in being a defunct human.....and America needed his personality out of the limelight. His toxicity nullified anything good he accomplished by a country mile.

He did wear that shit on his sleeve, didn't he?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 06:37:51 PM

Speaking of schools (sorry, I keep coming back to this...), my wife, the educator, believes once schools start up full time, it is going to be a mess, because of the disparity in how students learned and engaged over the past 1.5 years. The difference between those who kept up with all their work and had sufficient support at home and those who didn't gain anything out of virtual learning, either due to lack of access, support, or motivation, is going to be staggering. And it's going to hurt the kids who didn't fall behind, because classes are going to have to cater to those that did. And regardless of academics, these kids haven't been in a classroom setting for so long, it will be like they have to re-learn how to study and participate around 20+ other kids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 12, 2021, 06:39:40 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 06:37:51 PM

Speaking of schools (sorry, I keep coming back to this...), my wife, the educator, believes once schools start up full time, it is going to be a mess, because of the disparity in how students learned and engaged over the past 1.5 years. The difference between those who kept up with all their work and had sufficient support at home and those who didn't gain anything out of virtual learning, either due to lack of access, support, or motivation, is going to be staggering. And it's going to hurt the kids who didn't fall behind, because classes are going to have to cater to those that did. And regardless of academics, these kids haven't been in a classroom setting for so long, it will be like they have to re-learn how to study and participate around 20+ other kids.

That's interesting and I hadn't thought about it like that, but she's right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Fiery Winds on March 12, 2021, 06:44:03 PM

Hard to believe I'm coming up on 1 year since being sent home from work (fortunate to be able to go back with restrictions in June). Also hard to believe that within that year we've managed to pump out not 1, not 2, but 3 vaccines with more effectiveness than the flu vaccine.

Even though it'll take the summer months into the fall to immunize the entire US, it does appear that the smile of dawn will be arriving in early May after all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 09:06:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 06:37:51 PM

Speaking of schools (sorry, I keep coming back to this...), my wife, the educator, believes once schools start up full time, it is going to be a mess, because of the disparity in how students learned and engaged over the past 1.5 years. The difference between those who kept up with all their work and had sufficient support at home and those who didn't gain anything out of virtual learning, either due to lack of access, support, or motivation, is going to be staggering. And it's going to hurt the kids who didn't fall behind, because classes are going to have to cater to those that did. And regardless of academics, these kids haven't been in a classroom setting for so long, it will be like they have to re-learn how to study and participate around 20+ other kids.

Tremendously valid points, and ones many educators in my family have made, especially my sister in law who does head start at a very rough elementary school. The next year is going to be a hell of a challenge. Damn I wish teachers got paid more for what they do, no occupation deserves more respect man

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 09:38:25 PM

Married to a teacher I try to stay as neutral as possible on the political side of the profession. There are aspects of the union(s) that I support, and others that I don't. Same goes with the district/administration. I try not to criticize them much, out of respect for biting the hand that literally feeds my family. From what I've heard, and this is just based on my wife's perspective, the district is nearly going out of their way to screw with the teachers, and I do not say that lightly. I know they are feeling the pressure from higher up. It just sucks for herbeing at the bottom where all the sh*t flows down to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 13, 2021, 06:20:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 09:06:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 06:37:51 PM

Speaking of schools (sorry, I keep coming back to this...), my wife, the educator, believes once schools start up full time, it is going to be a mess, because of the disparity in how students learned and engaged over the past 1.5 years. The difference between those who kept up with all their work and had sufficient support at home and those who didn't gain anything out of virtual learning, either due to lack of access, support, or motivation, is going to be staggering. And it's going to hurt the kids who didn't fall behind, because classes are going to have to cater to those that did. And regardless of academics, these kids haven't been in a classroom setting for so long, it will be like they have to re-learn how to study and participate around 20+ other kids.

Tremendously valid points, and ones many educators in my family have made, especially my sister in law who does head start at a very rough elementary school. The next year is going to be a hell of a challenge. Damn I wish teachers got paid more for what they do, no occupation deserves more respect man

+100.  My family (previous generation) was entirely teachers, so I can appreciate fully what they do, and they crap they have to put up with - from gov'ts, administration, and shitty parents.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2021, 08:38:43 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 13, 2021, 06:20:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 12, 2021, 09:06:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on March 12, 2021, 06:37:51 PM

Speaking of schools (sorry, I keep coming back to this...), my wife, the educator, believes once schools start up full time, it is going to be a mess, because of the disparity in how students learned and engaged over the past 1.5 years. The difference between those who kept up with all their work and had sufficient support at home and those who didn't gain anything out of virtual learning, either due to lack of access, support, or motivation, is going to be staggering. And it's going to hurt the kids who didn't fall behind, because classes are going to have to cater to those that did. And regardless of academics, these kids haven't been in a classroom setting for so long, it will be like they have to re-learn how to study and participate around 20+ other kids.

Tremendously valid points, and ones many educators in my family have made, especially my sister in law who does head start at a very rough elementary school. The next year is going to be a hell of a challenge. Damn I wish teachers got paid more for what they do, no occupation deserves more respect man

+100.  My family (previous generation) was entirely teachers, so I can appreciate fully what they do, and they crap they have to put up with - from gov'ts, administration, and shitty parents.

I appreciate what the Good Teachers do to the fullest. These were ones that I as a student could talk with and they were nice, responsive, and when I would ask they would tell me how they felt about the changes We, as a school, experienced.

There are also, Teachers that aren't so great, and you could tell these teachers from the good ones. They werent really any of those things I mentioned about the Good Teachers.

My math teacher is still there at the school, and she went to that highschool, so she has seen a lot of changes and I would like to have a chat with her now, just to get her perspective of how much it has changed since I went to school. She showed us her yearbooks, and the campus back then was beautiful, the campus we had was barren and looked not as pretty, almost desolate.

I appreciate those teachers letting me know they agree with me as a student that The School changes from The District, Government, isn't beneficial for us students and it put an extra burden on us and also the teachers, because they had to change their lesson plans and even then couldn't teach as much as they really wanted to teach, or more they didn't have enough time to really teach everyone.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 13, 2021, 11:21:17 AM

One of My sisters in law is having a pretty rough response to her second Moderna shot. Horrible back ache and has thrown up a couple times. She and my bro in law had Covid in late December. My other three sis/bro in laws who got the same shots with her are fine. The randomness of this all is baffling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 13, 2021, 12:32:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 13, 2021, 11:21:17 AM

One of My sisters in law is having a pretty rough response to her second Moderna shot. Horrible back ache and has thrown up a couple times. She and my bro in law had Covid in late December. My other three sis/bro in laws who got the same shots with her are fine. The randomness of this all is baffling.

I'm strongly thinking that those of us who had a strong reaction to the vaccine previously had the virus and were either sick and no one knew what was going on or were asymptomatic. And I am talking to more and more people that think they had it in late summer early fall of 2019 but we couldn't have known definitively because shit didn't hit the fan until December 2019.

I just wonder if there will be official follow-up and tracking.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 14, 2021, 02:03:33 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 12, 2021, 04:38:30 PM

just want to say I think the effect on the country’s mood wasn’t just because the way news and media in general reported on trump (though I’m not discounting it) it was also very much Trump himself and the fact he’s gone is not negligible. Again not just because there’s less reporting on him but that he himself is unable to actively mess with you(and the world)as much as he did for 4+ years.

IMO that's a false difference; you either responded to Trump or you didn't.  Even though I agree that he courted controversy in a way that was self-defeating, it was always, ultimately, less about the man; that was just the excuse for the behavior.  "Oh, but he DESERVES it; did you hear what he said?".  The problem was that the behavior happened even when he DIDN'T say anything.  For someone like me that doesn't really believe in "deserve" all that much, it was always just a rationalization for bad behavior.   Much HASN'T changed in the last four and a half months or so, but the media's tone has.  Last night there was a story about the influx of unaccompanied minors at the border, and there was footage of those children being led into cages and housed within chain-linked subdivisions, and not a peep of outrage or disgust at the actions of our President.  Nothing about "inhumane treatment" of these kids.  SAME activity, different reaction. That's not because of the man, that's because of the reportage.

(In case anyone wants to look it up it was the 11:00 broadcast on the CT NBC affiliate.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 14, 2021, 02:16:00 PM

edit: nothing to see here, moving along 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 14, 2021, 02:48:17 PM

I'm gonna take this response over to the Biden 2021 thread, since it's not COVID related

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 14, 2021, 11:09:49 PM

Wow.


So CA is opening availability for more conditions tomorrow. I was shooting to fight the rush tomorrow morning when the county opens up appointments. It's a battle to get a slot.

Then I found out there's a state ran site in the county that had almost 50 1st dose appointments open tomorrow.  So tomorrow afternoon I'll get #1. I wish I was getting the single dose shot... But I'd rather get it over with than fight the county site.  Bonus points... They scheduled my second dose as well. Super simple.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 15, 2021, 03:17:13 PM

I guess I wasn't the only one..."confused as poop?"  :lol (wtf?) by the 4th of July comment last week

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/skillets-john-cooper-is-confused-by-joe-bidens-july-4th-covid-goal/?fbclid=IwAR0ex2l4AYhe_No5sG0E58ZC0xTJZ2eRd5qwEz6cFrU5BxYJKchfGYy1jac (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/skillets-john-cooper-is-confused-by-joe-bidens-july-4th-covid-goal/?fbclid=IwAR0ex2l4AYhe_No5sG0E58ZC0xTJZ2eRd5qwEz6cFrU5BxYJKchfGYy1jac)

Also, the numbers are continuing to look amazing this week here in the US.

Quote

1.3M shots yesterday so total up to 107.0M with the 7 day rolling average at 2.39M. 78.8% of shots administered is the national average, 21.0% of population with 1+ dose (note this is percent of population that has been given 1 or 2 doses, so total percent that have been pricked by a needle), 11.3% with double dose.
So far, 69.8 million Americans have received at least one dose of a vaccine. At least 37.5 million people have completed a vaccination regimen.

Doses delivered is 135.86M compared to yesterday 135.86M. So 0.0M doses delivered yesterday, 20.0M so far this week. Previous week totals for doses delivered is 19.7M,21.2M, 5.1M, 9.96M and , 9.4M.

36,896 positives reported yesterday compared to 44,879 week over week. 7-day rolling average is continuing to drop and is at 54,373.

Fatality was 629 compared to 1037 yesterday and 748 week over week, 7-day rolling fatality at 1290.

Note due to the reporting issue yesterday (didn't see why they reported a different time as either it was a mistake or they are now reporting it this way), today vaccinations were 1.3M. So between yesterday 4.6M + 1.3M = 5.9M which equates 2.95M per day which is a good weekend.

Also note that the 36,896 daily positive is the lowest single day total since October 4th.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 15, 2021, 03:27:20 PM

1st shot done!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on March 15, 2021, 04:27:40 PM

My wife scheduled her first shot this week.  I'm jealous that I'm generally healthy and don't have some sort of condition that would let me sign up right now. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 15, 2021, 06:38:13 PM

So ethics question....

A friend is not eligible as we sit here on Monday, March 15.  But her eligibility legit begins on Friday, the 19th.  There are appointments available on Friday, but she can't get to them without, technically, checking a box that doesn't, technically, apply.  The "I agree" language does say that you will truthful and you are eligible for the shot, but it doesn't say WHEN.   

Book it?  Or wait?

I say book it, as long as you can sit in that chair in good conscience and say "I am eligible" when the needle goes into your arm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 15, 2021, 06:41:20 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 15, 2021, 06:38:13 PM

I say book it, as long as you can sit in that chair in good conscience and say "I am eligible" when the needle goes into your arm.

Definitely. She's eligible...and getting the shot. Perfect.

So she wasn't technically eligible when she booked it. But she was eligible when she got it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 15, 2021, 06:43:01 PM

I say go for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 15, 2021, 07:20:33 PM

Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 15, 2021, 03:27:20 PM

1st shot done!

Nice Work!



My wife got her first shot today as well! She's a teacher and her district arranged shots for all the teachers as they are bringing kids back full time beginning next week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 15, 2021, 07:30:05 PM

It's mind-blowing how different states are handling things. I was able to get it because I'm fat, as well as 2 other friends here in California... Yet our friend in Florida, who technically a caretaker, can't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 16, 2021, 04:55:03 AM

Getting my first shot at 10:30 am today. I'll report back on which brand.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2021, 08:30:23 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 15, 2021, 07:20:33 PM

My wife got her first shot today as well! She's a teacher and her district arranged shots for all the teachers as they are bringing kids back full time beginning next week.

J&J? Shouldn't they wait at least 2 weeks after the shot to return?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 16, 2021, 11:18:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 16, 2021, 08:30:23 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 15, 2021, 07:20:33 PM

My wife got her first shot today as well! She's a teacher and her district arranged shots for all the teachers as they are bringing kids back full time beginning next week.

J&J? Shouldn't they wait at least 2 weeks after the shot to return?

Moderna. And, they’ve already been coming back on a modified schedule 3 days a week. It’s just going full time next week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2021, 11:35:06 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 16, 2021, 11:18:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 16, 2021, 08:30:23 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 15, 2021, 07:20:33 PM

My wife got her first shot today as well! She's a teacher and her district arranged shots for all the teachers as they are bringing kids back full time beginning next week.

J&J? Shouldn't they wait at least 2 weeks after the shot to return?

Moderna. And, they’ve already been coming back on a modified schedule 3 days a week. It’s just going full time next week.

Fair enough.  My teacher friend got his first shot this morning as NJ has expanded to the next phase. I'm registered with both my state and county, so just patiently waiting for my turn.  It'll come soon enough.  My family pushed Easter in Florida back until we can all get vaccinated.  My sister and her husband got their first shot, me and my two younger siblings are waiting.  Parents got the J&J last week, so family is slowly getting there and then I think we'll all be in Florida after.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 16, 2021, 11:50:13 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 16, 2021, 04:55:03 AM

Getting my first shot at 10:30 am today. I'll report back on which brand.

Hope all went well with your vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on March 16, 2021, 03:01:43 PM

https://www.bitchute.com/video/l17yD7zKBFdk/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 16, 2021, 06:14:49 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 16, 2021, 11:50:13 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 16, 2021, 04:55:03 AM

Getting my first shot at 10:30 am today. I'll report back on which brand.

Hope all went well with your vaccine.

It was convenient and painless. Thank you for your concern. Pfizer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 16, 2021, 07:14:49 PM

Gregg, did Mrs Pods get hers as well?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 16, 2021, 07:35:24 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 16, 2021, 07:14:49 PM

Gregg, did Mrs Pods get hers as well?

Yes she did, Bud. She’s a little achy but otherwise fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 17, 2021, 08:45:44 AM

Just got my first shot, pfizer

They told me the microchips will be activated on May 1st

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 09:10:28 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 17, 2021, 08:45:44 AM

Just got my first shot, pfizer

They told me the microchips will be activated on May 1st

But how's the 5G reception?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 17, 2021, 09:41:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 09:10:28 AM

But how's the 5G reception?

It's awful, I had no signal on my subway ride to work.

I got it at the Javit Center in NYC. The entire process, from me walking into the building to having the shot in my arm, it took 14 minutes, then 15 min observation and I was out of the building in less than 30 minutes. Second shot scheduled for April 7th  :coolio

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 09:44:15 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 17, 2021, 09:41:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 09:10:28 AM

But how's the 5G reception?

It's awful, I had no signal on my subway ride to work.

Ah... must be better with Moderna then.   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 17, 2021, 09:50:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 09:44:15 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 17, 2021, 09:41:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 09:10:28 AM

But how's the 5G reception?

It's awful, I had no signal on my subway ride to work.

Ah... must be better with Moderna then.   :lol

All I know is that ever since I got fully vaccinated with the Moderna I can turn myself into a hotspot. Quite convenient!  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2021, 09:53:29 AM

I've been pretty pro vaccines at this point, but the astrazeneca has me a questioning this one a little.  One person died from blood clots, not confirmed yet to be due to the vaccine, but also the fact the US hasn't approved its use makes me question it.  My one friend who works in the field of medicine distribution (not the vaccines, but in general) had said a few months ago that his opinion was all the vaccines EXCEPT that one looked really solid.  Said they were a bit shady in their phase 3 trials (I don't remember specifics) so adding his opinion, US not approving yet, and one death makes me have some questions about that vaccine.  Also I read today, it has 0% efficacy against the south african variant which all the others offer some protection from.  If I had a choice, I would not get that vaccine at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 17, 2021, 10:16:02 AM

Astra Zeneca is in a hot mess in Europe right now - panic over a couple of deaths led many countries to suspend it while awaiting more tests from those agencies that certify this stuff.

I mean, I applaud an excess of caution, just in case, but the vaccine will suffer a severe blow in credibility and the distribution and vaccinations will slow down in a moment we can't afford for it to happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 17, 2021, 10:27:15 AM

(Hello!! I'm busy!! Got a job online and then in meatspace - I work as an assistant child wrangler in kindergarten now.)

Just barging in to let you know the scoop with the AZ thing in Norway - the worrying thing is that days after taking the shots, four younger health workers got very unusual symptoms (not just blood clots, which occur a lot, particularly in women who take BC, but blood clots in combination with low platelet counts and haemorrhages) and one of them died. It could be anything, of course.

I don't know if I have lost my faith in that vaccine because of this because the verdict is still out. I have to look out because my dad died of DVT when he was 55, my uncle died of an aneurysm when he was 50 and my mom survived three burst aneurysms when she was 60, so the doctors recommended me and my siblings to start checking pretty much all of our veins starting at just 25 years old. That's that on one hand, on the other hand is that Norway designed to give the younger population this vaccine, and if it doesn't get out of the rotation now, I will have to take it in three or four months.

Situation here is pretty bleak and depressing. The capital and the surrounding areas have been on hard lockdown since December, but the new mutations of the virus are circulating freely in schools and kindergartens, where it's impossible to keep a distance and kids aren't mandated to wear masks. The state of public discourse regarding this situation is "but we can't sacrifice education and socialization to the pandemic" and "everyone who works there is young and healthy, they can wait their turn for the vaccine". So I kinda feel like I've been thrown to the lions alongside everyone working in education.

You kinda have to keep going and hope you're not one of the people who are still going to keep biting the dust as we vaccinate our way out of this mess. Some days it's not that easy, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 17, 2021, 11:09:16 AM

Good to see you, Mora; here's hoping it works out for you in a way you're comfortable with.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 01:02:02 PM

I would just keep in mind that over 17 million people have been vaccinated with Astrazenica's vaccine and there have been less than 100 cases of blood clots reported and there is no link yet established with the vaccine and these clots.  There have been 22 Pulmonary Embolisms and 15 DVTs reported so far.  That's 37 cases out of 17 million, meaning you have a 1 in 459,459 chance of having a clot of some kind. 


As a point of reference to this, you have about a 1 in 500,000 chance of being struck by lightning over the course of 1 year. 


The point being, it's not very likely, from a purely mathematical standpoint, that you will have an adverse reaction.  What are the odds that you are going to be that 1 person in nearly half a million people who has a bad reaction? 


I'm not trying to convince you to do anything other than look at it realistically.  Only YOU can know what odds you are comfortable with.  But I am going to go way out on a limb here and guess that you are not staying inside every day because you're too afraid of being struck by lightning, right?  Well, the odds of you getting sick from the vaccine are almost the same. 


Just something to consider when you make your decision.  :) 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2021, 01:07:06 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on March 17, 2021, 10:27:15 AM

So I kinda feel like I've been thrown to the lions alongside everyone working in education.

This seems to be a general consensus to many people working in education over here in the states as well.  Also being busy is good, and it's good to see you're still hanging in there and if you have any personal concerns regarding your health and the vaccine, use precaution.  I've made it fairly clear I'm pro vaccines here but I would never force it upon someone who has their own health concerns especially when one of these may not be as safe as thought.  (so far I have no reason to believe the others are unsafe and I'm just waiting on some more information on the death to see if it even truly is due to the vaccine)

And Kirk, I'm with you, the odds are still on our sides but if someone like Mora has some health conditions already, I wonder what the odds become then.  I'm sure it's still pretty good, but it might be a lot worse then the 1 in 459k and I would totally understand why someone would hold off. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 01:21:12 PM

The news that's being reported here in Canada is that global and European agencies are stating the rate of cases of blood clots is no higher than it would normally be seen from the general population, and there is no demonstrable correlation of the virus to blood clots.  Our National Advisory Council for vaccines has just approved it for use in >65 yrs old.  Mind you, that council also is allowing for 4-month intervals on the dual-dose vaccines (with the intent of getting the first dose to as many people as possible, as quick as possible. :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 01:39:31 PM

Wow, so they're ignoring the protocol on the booster dose?  That's um, kind of dumb  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2021, 01:44:19 PM

I would lean to follow the protocols myself, but one shot does provide a lot of protection so the end result actually may not be too bad.  Only time will tell if that's a better approach.  If Canada's supply is very low, maybe, it makes sense as some things I've read said it's safe to delay the second shot.  Also, it seems there's a large amount of people who flat out aren't going back for the second dose so it's a good thing the first one actually does provide some protection.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 17, 2021, 02:12:37 PM

I'm not that afraid of the numbers of blood clots, since they're really low statistically speaking. I'm afraid that they're going to say that the freaky thing that happened to those health workers was tied to the vaccine, that it was a freak accident or something wrong with one single batch or something, and that they will fix it and be more careful from now, because then I won't have any choice but to trust them and take it, but I'll be scared all along.

I'm very pro-vaccine, and pro-any vaccine - most of us outside the US won't be getting the fancy super effective vaccines like Pfizer or Moderna, and I'll likely end up needing a booster shot for the SA variant or something. Same with the folks I know in Serbia, who are getting vaccinated en-masse with the Chinese Sinopharm (which only reaches 80% effectiveness in most studies) and Russian Sputnik V, and they're worried that this means they won't get the super sophisticated protection and that they'll get bugged while crossing borders because those two manufacturers aren't seeking to be approved to be in the EU. But you don't get your shots to go to the Greek seaside without having to show them a negative test, or to be protected from any eventuality, you get the shots to stay out of the hospital if shit hits the fan and the virus is still circulating and you do get infected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 02:15:29 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 01:39:31 PM

Wow, so they're ignoring the protocol on the booster dose?  That's um, kind of dumb  :|

It had been reported that the UK did it this way to try and get their variant strain under control a couple months back.  And as Marc said, our supply is a disaster.  We have manufacturers here, so we're 100% reliant on imports from Europe and India.  And we already know that Europe is willing to block exports if need be - they did it to Australia.

We went 2 weeks without any Pfizer shipments in February.  It's supposed to get better in the coming weeks/months, which is the logic behind delaying the 2nd dose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 02:21:50 PM

I hope we (The USA) are able to help Canada out at some point.  The projections I've seen indicate that we're going to have more than a 100-million-dose surplus based on what's already on hand and what's on order, so maybe in a few months when we're closing in on herd immunity our government will be willing to start helping out other countries who have shortages.  I'm all for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TempusVox on March 17, 2021, 02:22:20 PM

I received my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine on Monday morning. The nurse who administered it for me told me she typically works as an ICU nurse, and informed me that she lost 46 patients last year due to Covid, under her watch alone. She said, "I'm so happy you won't be my 47 now." It was sort of emotional.

After the first dose, my arm was sore for a week. By Monday evening I still felt fine, although around 10PM or so, I felt a bit flushed. I took some Nyquil and crashed. Where I stayed in the same spot all night long.

Tuesday, I got up to pee about 8AM, drank a glass of water, and went back to bed; where I slept until 2PM. When I woke up I drug myself to the kitchen to make a cup of coffee, and sat down on the sofa to drink it. The next thing I recall, it was 7PM and my coffee was cold. When I woke up, I could hardly keep my eyes open. I had no other ill effects of any kind. My arm wasn't even sore at all. I ate a bite of chicken, and fell asleep chewing. I finally mustered up enough energy to take a hot shower around 10PM, which perked me up a bit; and I managed to stay awake until around midnight. I slept through until about 8 this morning.

I'm still feeling a bit tired, but otherwise I feel fine.

All things considered, my basically losing a day to sleep was well worth it. I feel very blessed to have been fortunate enough to get the vaccine. There are 500K+  people in the US (and counting) who were not so lucky. That isn't lost on me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 02:23:39 PM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on March 17, 2021, 02:12:37 PM

I'm not that afraid of the numbers of blood clots, since they're really low statistically speaking. I'm afraid that they're going to say that the freaky thing that happened to those health workers was tied to the vaccine, that it was a freak accident or something wrong with one single batch or something, and that they will fix it and be more careful from now, because then I won't have any choice but to trust them and take it, but I'll be scared all along.

I'm very pro-vaccine, and pro-any vaccine - most of us outside the US won't be getting the fancy super effective vaccines like Pfizer or Moderna, and I'll likely end up needing a booster shot for the SA variant or something. Same with the folks I know in Serbia, who are getting vaccinated en-masse with the Chinese Sinopharm (which only reaches 80% effectiveness in most studies) and Russian Sputnik V, and they're worried that this means they won't get the super sophisticated protection and that they'll get bugged while crossing borders because those two manufacturers aren't seeking to be approved to be in the EU. But you don't get your shots to go to the Greek seaside without having to show them a negative test, or to be protected from any eventuality, you get the shots to stay out of the hospital if shit hits the fan and the virus is still circulating and you do get infected.

To be clear, I was really only trying to give you some level of comfort with it, not trying to brow-beat you about vaccine denialism or anything like that at all  :)   Sounds like you've got it figured out for yourself  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2021, 02:27:57 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 02:21:50 PM

I hope we (The USA) are able to help Canada out at some point.  The projections I've seen indicate that we're going to have more than a 100-million-dose surplus based on what's already on hand and what's on order, so maybe in a few months when we're closing in on herd immunity our government will be willing to start helping out other countries who have shortages.  I'm all for it.

With all the vaccine deniers here in the US, we may be able to help a lot of others eventually. 

Honestly, really happy Trump publicly said to get the vaccine.  That is the best thing he's done in a long time IMO.  Funny enough, one of my hardcore republican and trumpster DOCTOR friend who was very anti these vaccines immediately after the announcement said he was going to get it.  :facepalm: I'm glad at the end result, but I'm astonished that highly intelligent people needed him to say it. I had been arguing with this friend (and his DOCTOR brother) for weeks now and at least one of them is now following through.  Haven't spoken to his brother yet but I bet he holds out a little longer until he finally comes through. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 02:35:38 PM

Intelligence =/= Common Sense

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 17, 2021, 02:38:59 PM

The big problem going forward with vaccines is that people won't stop dying, because vaccines, well, are not making you immortal, are just protecting you from the virus.

It's statistically certain that, with more and more vaccinations happening, more and more people who got vaccinated will die (anyway). And some of them will die shortly after the vaccine - just like it would have happened anyway even without the vaccine. The scare about vaccines isn't going away anytime soon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2021, 02:58:42 PM

There's a few anecdotal stories of this coming out lately:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/woman-had-crippling-long-covid-153543532.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/woman-had-crippling-long-covid-153543532.html)

Quote

Arianna Eisenberg, 34, said she experienced muscle pains, insomnia, fatigue, and brain fog for eight months after getting sick. These symptoms are typical of what is become known as "long COVID".

But 36 hours after receiving a second dose of COVID-19 vaccine, her symptoms were gone, the Post reported.

Very interesting.  Nothing proven here but she is not the only person reporting this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 03:08:15 PM

That's not new.  They're called "Covid-19 Long-haulers" and they've been talking about it for a few months now on the news in my area
 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2021, 03:14:39 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 17, 2021, 03:08:15 PM

That's not new.  They're called "Covid-19 Long-haulers" and they've been talking about it for a few months now on the news in my area

Being "cured" of long term covid from the vaccine seems pretty new to me, but based on your response, it seems you didn't read the article linked and/or didn't make it past the first sentence of the quote. But once again, it's not proven the vaccine will make your long term covid symptoms go away, but there's a few examples so far where it has.  Will be really great if it can be proven to be the case and convince more people to get vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 17, 2021, 03:26:18 PM

Quote

However, the authors said that this could be down to the placebo effect.

This is what I am thinking. Those "symptoms" sound like when you're Overwhelmed. And this Vaccine makes ones mind feel more safer. In their minds, these symptoms persist because they still felt doubt of a cure and hopeless, negative thoughts affect your health and mind. Being overwhelmed can cause brain fog. And worry and thinking about things can cause Insomnia, as your mind races and thinks more when you sleep and are alone in your thoughts.

So when they get the vaccine. Their minds feel safer, and less overwhelmed with stress of worry. And therefore it uplifts the spirit and releases those symptoms of Overwhelmed. Because you are not worried about the Covid much anymore because you got the vaccine. The vaccine made it safer for you.

Which is all in the mind. I am also not saying the vaccine is a placebo. But that the mind is an amazing thing that affects everything that happens in our bodies, including the immune system...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2021, 04:11:28 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 17, 2021, 03:26:18 PM

Quote

However, the authors said that this could be down to the placebo effect.

This is what I am thinking. Those "symptoms" sound like when you're Overwhelmed. And this Vaccine makes ones mind feel more safer. In their minds, these symptoms persist because they still felt doubt of a cure and hopeless, negative thoughts affect your health and mind. Being overwhelmed can cause brain fog. And worry and thinking about things can cause Insomnia, as your mind races and thinks more when you sleep and are alone in your thoughts.

So when they get the vaccine. Their minds feel safer, and less overwhelmed with stress of worry. And therefore it uplifts the spirit and releases those symptoms of Overwhelmed. Because you are not worried about the Covid much anymore because you got the vaccine. The vaccine made it safer for you.

Which is all in the mind. I am also not saying the vaccine is a placebo. But that the mind is an amazing thing that affects everything that happens in our bodies, including the immune system...

Yea, it's entirely possible.  But even if it is the placebo effect, if people are somehow overcoming the long haul covid, that's still a positive.  There's no current science (that I know at least) to explain this so offering this reasoning seems totally plausible too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 17, 2021, 05:55:04 PM

So my other half, who is just outside of qualifying for a vaccination right now, decided to make an appointment and see. She felt bad at first, but when she saw appointments were being left unfilled, she decided to say fuck it. She's glad they did.


They way overestimated the number of doses thawing for today. People were not booking appointments... so it got to the point where they were letting anyone 18+ get a shot, no questions asked... just so they don't go to waste. Like the healthcare workers there were telling everyone there to call anyone who may want it who could get there before the cut off. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 06:45:35 PM

If I could get on a plane, I would.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2021, 06:46:37 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 06:45:35 PM

If I could get on a plane, I would.

To get on a plane, you'd actually have to, you know, leave the house.  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 17, 2021, 07:02:03 PM

Hard to get to the airport on your snowmobile.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 07:16:21 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 17, 2021, 07:02:03 PM

Hard to get to the airport on your snowmobile.

I'll bet you a c-note you have more snow on the ground than I do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 17, 2021, 07:17:26 PM

We talking dandruff??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 17, 2021, 07:24:59 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 07:16:21 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 17, 2021, 07:02:03 PM

Hard to get to the airport on your snowmobile.

I'll bet you a c-note you have more snow on the ground than I do.

I e got none. Hard to believe. 

Quote from: TAC on March 17, 2021, 07:17:26 PM

We talking dandruff??

Experience?  Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2021, 04:47:40 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 17, 2021, 07:24:59 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 17, 2021, 07:16:21 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 17, 2021, 07:02:03 PM

Hard to get to the airport on your snowmobile.

I'll bet you a c-note you have more snow on the ground than I do.

I e got none. Hard to believe. 

Then we're even.  Everything melted here last week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 18, 2021, 08:01:30 AM

My mother got her second shot yesterday!   :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2021, 09:23:37 AM

Awesome.  The momentum is encouraging.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 18, 2021, 09:24:37 AM

Girlfriend got her first shot today. Woo!!

Hopefully I can get it before the next GnR album.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 18, 2021, 09:26:16 AM

Quote from: Adami on March 18, 2021, 09:24:37 AM

Hopefully I can get it before the next GnR album.

After Chinese Democracy, American Vaccination?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2021, 09:32:26 AM

The things I'm seeing with regards to spring break in Florida make me think we will see an uptick in cases soon.  As long as hospitalizations/death stay low we should, as a whole, be OK though.  I really wish people could take this seriously for just a couple more months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2021, 09:44:11 AM

@ Cram... if people don't, you'll get your third wave soon enough.  Everywhere else is, and it's just starting to take off here in Ontario, and across Canada.  Variant's are taking hold (double and triple the KNOWN case counts in just the last week), and starting a very worrisome upward trend up here.  Third wave, here we come.   :tup  but really  :tdwn :tdwn

And it's affecting a younger demographic.  A local school board has mandated face-shields or goggles ON TOP OF masks for all employees.  Most regions are going to be taking a step back into their lockdown level - Ottawa just went from Orange to Red this morning.

We still haven't hit rock bottom here - ie, things are still going to get worse before they're going to get better.  Our piss-poor vaccine rollout ain't helping.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 18, 2021, 09:45:48 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2021, 09:32:26 AM

The things I'm seeing with regards to spring break in Florida make me think we will see an uptick in cases soon.  As long as hospitalizations/death stay low we should, as a whole, be OK though.  I really wish people could take this seriously for just a couple more months.

That's just reality of life. You can't expect everyone to play along, or to follow along. The only way they can play along or follow is through manipulation, brainwashing, and mind control. These things utilize fear, to make people submit to follow along or play along. Everyone has their reasons why.

For one, those people don't view this as serious. As odd as that sounds, people do and that's the reality of "People do not think the same as you"....and why I tell people whom ask me what or why some person did something, "I don't know their intentions, nor do I read minds. why don't you ask them yourself?"

Or you can take Mike Portnoys advice in Repentance "Some of us got to be wrong and learn the hard way."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2021, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2021, 09:44:11 AM

@ Cram... if people don't, you'll get your third wave soon enough.  Everywhere else is, and it's just starting to take off here in Ontario, and across Canada.  Variant's are taking hold (double and triple the KNOWN case counts in just the last week), and starting a very worrisome upward trend up here.  Third wave, here we come.   :tup  but really  :tdwn :tdwn

And it's affecting a younger demographic.  A local school board has mandated face-shields or goggles ON TOP OF masks for all employees.  Most regions are going to be taking a step back into their lockdown level - Ottawa just went from Orange to Red this morning.

We still haven't hit rock bottom here - ie, things are still going to get worse before they're going to get better.  Our piss-poor vaccine rollout ain't helping.

I'm not ready to say the US is going into a 3rd wave. If anything, we will see an uptick in cases from things opening up (and spring break), but if the vaccines work as advertised (and so far, I have no reason to think they don't) we will not see an uptick in hospitalizations or deaths.  Of course that is all subject to change, but that's how I feel today with the numbers I see here in the US. And as you pointed out, and is also seen in Isreal, most of the new cases these days are from young healthy people who cannot get vaccinated yet so the variants and contagiousness are playing a role there, but still not enough reason to think we are currently in a bad spot.  I just wish, even though I know people aren't always going to listen especially the young and healthy, people could just hold on a little longer because it's really possible to be out of this pandemic in the US by this summer if we do play this right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 18, 2021, 09:54:54 AM

The problem is that it's counterintuitive that when cases are starting to decrease, it's better to keep the restrictions, but of course people everywhere are already fed up and so as soon cases go down, everybody runs outside.

What's better - keeping the phone in charge until it's 100%, or charging it only at 40% then using it and then go back soon to charge it again?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2021, 10:01:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 18, 2021, 09:54:54 AM

The problem is that it's counterintuitive that when cases are starting to decrease, it's better to keep the restrictions, but of course people everywhere are already fed up and so as soon cases go down, everybody runs outside.

What's better - keeping the phone in charge until it's 100%, or charging it only at 40% then using it and then go back soon to charge it again?

It's honestly a fine balance, there's more nuance to this as people jobs and livelihood are also on the line.  I don't have the answers or know which is the best, but my opinion is you do open up, just slowly not all at once.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 18, 2021, 10:04:33 AM

Oh yeah, on the "slowly, not all at once" I agree. And while "lockdown until 0 cases" can work in selected situations (Australia did that), and should be the norm, we have to realistically take in considerations that we can't either leave too many people to starve.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2021, 10:11:54 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2021, 10:01:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 18, 2021, 09:54:54 AM

The problem is that it's counterintuitive that when cases are starting to decrease, it's better to keep the restrictions, but of course people everywhere are already fed up and so as soon cases go down, everybody runs outside.

What's better - keeping the phone in charge until it's 100%, or charging it only at 40% then using it and then go back soon to charge it again?

It's honestly a fine balance, there's more nuance to this as people jobs and livelihood are also on the line. 

Yeah, that's how I see it as well.  I understand what you are getting at with the cell phone analogy, but I don't find it to be a very apt analogy.  What is "better" depends on a lot more variables than simply "100% is better than 40%."  If I have a very real need to use the phone, and need to use it away from the charger, it is absolutely "better" to unplug and use it at 40%.  And assuming I understand the basics of how cell phones work, there is little danger that I will drain the battery to 0% if I follow the proper precautions. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 18, 2021, 10:52:50 AM

One down, one to go.  Pfizer, a little over an hour ago.  So far, no side effects.  My arm doesn't even hurt.  Maybe that will come later.  Every body is different.

Let's face it, no one looks forward to getting shots.  I hate shots.  I wasn't looking forward to this one, and I'm not looking foward to the follow-up in three weeks.  I'm looking forward to getting past this point and onto the "life returns to somewhat normal" stuff, and this is a necessary part of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2021, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2021, 10:11:54 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2021, 10:01:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 18, 2021, 09:54:54 AM

The problem is that it's counterintuitive that when cases are starting to decrease, it's better to keep the restrictions, but of course people everywhere are already fed up and so as soon cases go down, everybody runs outside.

What's better - keeping the phone in charge until it's 100%, or charging it only at 40% then using it and then go back soon to charge it again?

It's honestly a fine balance, there's more nuance to this as people jobs and livelihood are also on the line. 

Yeah, that's how I see it as well.  I understand what you are getting at with the cell phone analogy, but I don't find it to be a very apt analogy.  What is "better" depends on a lot more variables than simply "100% is better than 40%."  If I have a very real need to use the phone, and need to use it away from the charger, it is absolutely "better" to unplug and use it at 40%.  And assuming I understand the basics of how cell phones work, there is little danger that I will drain the battery to 0% if I follow the proper precautions.

Fair, but when most people just want to unplug it to surf Tik Tok, or play Pokemon 2, you'd think maybe the better thing to do in the long run is to charge it fully.

TBH, I really don't think we need any analogies... the realities that we're all facing is enough evidence - whether factual or anecdotal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 18, 2021, 01:16:22 PM

We're already in the 3rd wave now.  If you look at the cases this week, after many weeks of big declines they've leveled off in most places and in 14 states they're up anywhere from 10% to 30%.  From what I've been reading today, the vaccinations and infections that have already occured over the last year will mitigate this wave somewhat so it may not be as drastic as the second wave was last winter, but it's definitely coming.  Europe is having theirs now and they had their cases plateau about 3 weeks ago.  Ours are plateauing this week, so we may see this next wave peaking in the next 3 to 5 weeks...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2021, 02:46:12 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 18, 2021, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2021, 10:11:54 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 18, 2021, 10:01:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on March 18, 2021, 09:54:54 AM

The problem is that it's counterintuitive that when cases are starting to decrease, it's better to keep the restrictions, but of course people everywhere are already fed up and so as soon cases go down, everybody runs outside.

What's better - keeping the phone in charge until it's 100%, or charging it only at 40% then using it and then go back soon to charge it again?

It's honestly a fine balance, there's more nuance to this as people jobs and livelihood are also on the line. 

Yeah, that's how I see it as well.  I understand what you are getting at with the cell phone analogy, but I don't find it to be a very apt analogy.  What is "better" depends on a lot more variables than simply "100% is better than 40%."  If I have a very real need to use the phone, and need to use it away from the charger, it is absolutely "better" to unplug and use it at 40%.  And assuming I understand the basics of how cell phones work, there is little danger that I will drain the battery to 0% if I follow the proper precautions.

Fair, but when most people just want to unplug it to surf Tik Tok, or play Pokemon 2, you'd think maybe the better thing to do in the long run is to charge it fully.

TBH, I really don't think we need any analogies... the realities that we're all facing is enough evidence - whether factual or anecdotal.

To some people, Tik Tok and Pokemon 2 ARE the emergencies.  Not for me to judge.  Almost every day of my life I see someone doing/saying something that is absolutely ridiculous to me, but they have "reasons" that, all things considered, baffle me personally.   All I can do is manage my OWN phone.

And for the record, I have an appointment tomorrow to get my shot.  Anxious and excited all at the same time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2021, 02:53:45 PM

If I may ask, how does your phone feel about the appointment?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 18, 2021, 02:54:50 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2021, 02:53:45 PM

If I may ask, how does your phone feel about the appointment?

Or his Pokemon's

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2021, 03:00:20 PM

Well, yes, but I felt that was getting a bit too personal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 18, 2021, 03:56:38 PM

My Pokemon is fine, thank you very much, and my phone has four bars in anticipation of my shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on March 18, 2021, 09:35:35 PM

I had something similar happen about a year ago, when one of the conspiracy theories said that the virus was created by "the Chinese" to make Donald Trump look bad.  Right, because it's totally worth it to kill a few million people (starting with your own) just to make the leader of some other country look bad.  I had a friend, a person I thought was otherwise relatively sane, spouting that shit on his Facebook page.  "It's so obvious."  "Doesn't it strike anyone as suspicious that this is happening during an election year?"  "When are people going to wake up?"  Oh for fuck's sake, really?  I had to stop following.  Good friend, we've been through the wars together, but damn, I had to cut him off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on March 19, 2021, 02:05:22 AM

Quote from: Orbert on March 18, 2021, 09:35:35 PM

I had something similar happen about a year ago, when one of the conspiracy theories said that the virus was created by "the Chinese" to make Donald Trump look bad.  Right, because it's totally worth it to kill a few million people (starting with your own) just to make the leader of some other country look bad.  I had a friend, a person I thought was otherwise relatively sane, spouting that shit on his Facebook page.  "It's so obvious."  "Doesn't it strike anyone as suspicious that this is happening during an election year?"  "When are people going to wake up?"  Oh for fuck's sake, really?  I had to stop following.  Good friend, we've been through the wars together, but damn, I had to cut him off.

Even without the conspiracy angle, that US-centric view of the world is a bit naive. China makes a virus to hit the USA, excuse Europe, Africa, the rest of Asia, South America and Australia for existing. I guess your buddy wasn't good at geography....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 19, 2021, 05:11:19 AM

I know the stories are sometimes more or less outlandish, but I'm not sure why this is a surprise at this point.  I have said this same thing in about eight different threads now:  for me, it's almost a daily occurrence that I have a thought of "how can that person possibly believe that? It's just not supported by the facts as we know them."

In COVID-land, I had a guy - one of the smartest guys in my company, and probably top five in terms of leadership here in the Americas - tell me earlier this week that "yeah, I'm getting it.  I know it's fucking with my DNA, but I'm 60, and I'm not having any more kids."  The woman who runs her entire function in the Americas said something similar, but added "and I have no idea how they got that vaccine so fast! It's fishy!".

I'm of the opinion that we just move too fast these days to absorb the level of information required to make an informed decision on everything. We've always known that the brain takes short-cuts to process information; visually, we've known for decades that our brain makes assumptions with the information it receives, because it can't process every nugget of info if it hopes to move fast enough to stay safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 19, 2021, 06:50:32 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

Gregg it's baffling. He has a fantastic six figure job.....four beautiful daughters and a wonderful wife. I've known the guy since we were in 5th grade....he's a close friend. But for whatever reason he drank the trump kool aid big time. As I mentioned, he's a reasoned and thought out individual......which is what makes this so weird. He really went 'all in' on trump and is certainly one of the extreme members of his supporters now. I just don't get it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 19, 2021, 08:37:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 18, 2021, 03:56:38 PM

My Pokemon is fine, thank you very much, and my phone has four bars in anticipation of my shot.

:clap:

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 19, 2021, 06:50:32 AM

Gregg it's baffling. He has a fantastic six figure job.....four beautiful daughters and a wonderful wife. I've known the guy since we were in 5th grade....he's a close friend. But for whatever reason he drank the trump kool aid big time. As I mentioned, he's a reasoned and thought out individual......which is what makes this so weird. He really went 'all in' on trump and is certainly one of the extreme members of his supporters now. I just don't get it.

It just dawned on me how people can seemingly compartmentalize their any echo chambers in their lives.  Sad thing is, he probably views you the same way, and shares it as such with those who share similar views.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 08:44:24 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 19, 2021, 06:50:32 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

Gregg it's baffling. He has a fantastic six figure job.....four beautiful daughters and a wonderful wife. I've known the guy since we were in 5th grade....he's a close friend. But for whatever reason he drank the trump kool aid big time. As I mentioned, he's a reasoned and thought out individual......which is what makes this so weird. He really went 'all in' on trump and is certainly one of the extreme members of his supporters now. I just don't get it.

But this goes well beyond Trumpism, Gary. Trump himself has had the vaccine and is taking as much credit as he can for any success associated with the roll out. He's even encouraged people to get vaccinated recently. If your friend truly is all in on the kool-aid, he'd be jumping at the opportunity to get the vaccine because his dear leader said too. I'm thinking your friend has something else going on in his life that makes him feel good supporting such nonsense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 19, 2021, 08:46:49 AM

I think many conservatives liked Trump for saying what's on his mind when in fact that is a death kneel for politicians.  when you are a child you don't know better to say those things.  As an adult, you should learn what's appropriate to see and what you shouldn't say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 19, 2021, 08:49:32 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 08:44:24 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 19, 2021, 06:50:32 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

Gregg it's baffling. He has a fantastic six figure job.....four beautiful daughters and a wonderful wife. I've known the guy since we were in 5th grade....he's a close friend. But for whatever reason he drank the trump kool aid big time. As I mentioned, he's a reasoned and thought out individual......which is what makes this so weird. He really went 'all in' on trump and is certainly one of the extreme members of his supporters now. I just don't get it.

But this goes well beyond Trumpism, Gary. Trump himself has had the vaccine and is taking as much credit as he can for any success associated with the roll out. He's even encouraged people to get vaccinated recently. If your friend truly is all in on the kool-aid, he'd be jumping at the opportunity to get the vaccine because his dear leader said too. I'm thinking your friend has something else going on in his life that makes him feel good supporting such nonsense.

Could be? I know him well and we have pretty honest conversations but who's to say what he is or isn't telling me?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:17:56 AM

Belief is a hell of a drug...

I've said it before. It comes down to ones personal beliefs.

Doesn't matter if you are intelligent or a dumb. Both can believe the same things.

Basically, have you guys asked those intelligent people you know, why they believe it, to get their perspective? Or did you just think them a looney and are questioning their personal beliefs because you can't understand why they believe It? The only way to know and understand is to ask why...Why does the person so wholeheartedly believe what they believe?

Each person's individual beliefs shape their perception of Life on this world, and experiences of life can shape a person's belief. Near Death Experiences are big ones that can tremendously shift a person's belief, either into believing something else entirely or being more submissive to their belief.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 19, 2021, 08:49:32 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 08:44:24 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 19, 2021, 06:50:32 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

Gregg it's baffling. He has a fantastic six figure job.....four beautiful daughters and a wonderful wife. I've known the guy since we were in 5th grade....he's a close friend. But for whatever reason he drank the trump kool aid big time. As I mentioned, he's a reasoned and thought out individual......which is what makes this so weird. He really went 'all in' on trump and is certainly one of the extreme members of his supporters now. I just don't get it.

But this goes well beyond Trumpism, Gary. Trump himself has had the vaccine and is taking as much credit as he can for any success associated with the roll out. He's even encouraged people to get vaccinated recently. If your friend truly is all in on the kool-aid, he'd be jumping at the opportunity to get the vaccine because his dear leader said too. I'm thinking your friend has something else going on in his life that makes him feel good supporting such nonsense.

Could be? I know him well and we have pretty honest conversations but who's to say what he is or isn't telling me?

And that right there is TRUST. Do you trust him to be telling you the truth about himself and what he thinks?

How much do we trust each other?....I can tell you it's pretty darn low...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

People want to belong. And each belief system is a system of belonging and Faith. People that don't have this tend to fall victim easily to manipulation.

Cults take advantage of these people and make them do things, because they're exposing their weakness of belief and mind.

QAnon did just that to the people who's trust and belief in government is at an all time low. They need something to assure they'll be safe, so they fall victim to those that spew this stuff.

Scientology is another great example.

Some religions, some people think are cults. The Spaniards, holding their beliefs as truthful and the "Right, correct" way, viewed many people as Pagans and heretics. And actually went to the lengths to force people into their belief system.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 19, 2021, 10:35:01 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 19, 2021, 08:46:49 AM

I think many conservatives liked Trump for saying what's on his mind when in fact that is a death kneel for politicians.  when you are a child you don't know better to say those things.  As an adult, you should learn what's appropriate to see and what you shouldn't say.

I agree with this; I think it was less about Trump and what he was saying than it was "a license to ill".  I think it's hard for a lot of people to take a position and stand firm with it in the face of opposition.  We like it when others share our views; it's reinforcing.  It doesnt' have to be substantively the same, but I imagine there are people who feel empowered to stick to their guns in the face of contrary information (and that's not exclusive to either side of the aisle).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 19, 2021, 10:37:05 AM

I got my first shot this morning.   

I'm psyched (though every itch, pain, spasm, or sneeze triggers an immediate wave of panic).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

People want to belong. And each belief system is a system of belonging and Faith. People that don't have this tend to fall victim easily to manipulation.

Cults take advantage of these people and make them do things, because they're exposing their weakness of belief and mind.

QAnon did just that to the people who's trust and belief in government is at an all time low. They need something to assure they'll be safe, so they fall victim to those that spew this stuff.

Scientology is another great example.

Some religions, some people think are cults. The Spaniards, holding their beliefs as truthful and the "Right, correct" way, viewed many people as Pagans and heretics. And actually went to the lengths to force people into their belief system.

Faith and Belief are not virtues and belief without reason are both dangerous and quite frankly - ridiculous. Keeping this to the topic at hand, people believe things about the virus that have no basis in fact but we already know this. They have inserted themselves as experts when they have no expertise in the subject but they feel justified because - well they believe. That's dangerous!

I will continue in the P/R section but I will leave this with  - ALL religions are cults and the religion of trump is the most dangerous of our lifetime.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 10:57:40 AM

Quote

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said earlier this week that her agency was reconsidering its stance as more data became available.

“CDC is committed to leading with science and updating our guidance as new evidence emerges,” she said in a statement Friday. “These updated recommendations provide the evidence-based roadmap to help schools reopen safely, and remain open, for in-person instruction.”

President Biden has called on schools to fully reopen, and the revised guidelines put the CDC more clearly in line with the White House. Until now, the CDC was encouraging schools to remain partially shut at the same time Biden was encouraging them to fully open.

Biden pushes full-time school, but districts are cautious after CDC weighs in

But the change is sharply opposed by the country’s two large teachers’ unions, which argue that there is scant research about the impact of closer contact in urban schools, where buildings are older and classrooms more crowded.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/cdc-schools-three-feet-distance/2021/03/19/62689464-88bc-11eb-82bc-e58213caa38e_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0QYoC1VmrK7PqXznpB33SPJG_fVmOTFmVB0tPKeZ-VFAuxqAaAmc-fUeQ

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 11:23:16 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

People want to belong. And each belief system is a system of belonging and Faith. People that don't have this tend to fall victim easily to manipulation.

Cults take advantage of these people and make them do things, because they're exposing their weakness of belief and mind.

QAnon did just that to the people who's trust and belief in government is at an all time low. They need something to assure they'll be safe, so they fall victim to those that spew this stuff.

Scientology is another great example.

Some religions, some people think are cults. The Spaniards, holding their beliefs as truthful and the "Right, correct" way, viewed many people as Pagans and heretics. And actually went to the lengths to force people into their belief system.

Faith and Belief are not virtues and belief without reason are both dangerous and quite frankly - ridiculous. Keeping this to the topic at hand, people believe things about the virus that have no basis in fact but we already know this. They have inserted themselves as experts when they have no expertise in the subject but they feel justified because - well they believe. That's dangerous!

I will continue in the P/R section but I will leave this with  - ALL religions are cults and the religion of trump is the most dangerous of our lifetime.

See, here's the thing. What happens when that belief ends up being proven as fact? That is Science in a nutshell.

People have Faith in Science, but also they don't have to believe it. Just like people have faith in the new dream theater album being good, doesn't mean they believe it will be. Upon release, it's proven to be either true to your faith and belief it will be good, or totally prove your belief and faith wrong. Yet, you still hold faith for the new album and the tour being good, and maybe the songs being played live will convert you to believe the album is actually good.

Also, how do you become an expert? Sometimes, the expert doesn't know everything either. They aren't perfect as well. Which is why you have to have faith that the expert is telling you the truth as well. And when that faith is tested many times, and shown to be deceitful, it's kind of hard to trust the expert. Especially when they flip-flop.

For me, I don't consider no one an expert at anything. They are more well-versed and well-informed of what they do. And sometimes, people come in and say something to that expert which makes that expert look stupid, because they never bothered to think of it, and therefore it changes their perspective. These things can happen the more time goes on.

And also...This forum is a cult. Fandom is a cult. Everything in this world can be a cult.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 11:32:56 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 11:23:16 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

People want to belong. And each belief system is a system of belonging and Faith. People that don't have this tend to fall victim easily to manipulation.

Cults take advantage of these people and make them do things, because they're exposing their weakness of belief and mind.

QAnon did just that to the people who's trust and belief in government is at an all time low. They need something to assure they'll be safe, so they fall victim to those that spew this stuff.

Scientology is another great example.

Some religions, some people think are cults. The Spaniards, holding their beliefs as truthful and the "Right, correct" way, viewed many people as Pagans and heretics. And actually went to the lengths to force people into their belief system.

Faith and Belief are not virtues and belief without reason are both dangerous and quite frankly - ridiculous. Keeping this to the topic at hand, people believe things about the virus that have no basis in fact but we already know this. They have inserted themselves as experts when they have no expertise in the subject but they feel justified because - well they believe. That's dangerous!

I will continue in the P/R section but I will leave this with  - ALL religions are cults and the religion of trump is the most dangerous of our lifetime.

See, here's the thing. What happens when that belief ends up being proven as fact? That is Science in a nutshell.

People have Faith in Science, but also they don't have to believe it. Just like people have faith in the new dream theater album being good, doesn't mean they believe it will be. Upon release, it's proven to be either true to your faith and belief it will be good, or totally prove your belief and faith wrong. Yet, you still hold faith for the new album and the tour being good, and maybe the songs being played live will convert you to believe the album is actually good.

Also, how do you become an expert? Sometimes, the expert doesn't know everything either. They aren't perfect as well. Which is why you have to have faith that the expert is telling you the truth as well. And when that faith is tested many times, and shown to be deceitful, it's kind of hard to trust the expert. Especially when they flip-flop.

For me, I don't consider no one an expert at anything. They are more well-versed and well-informed of what they do. And sometimes, people come in and say something to that expert which makes that expert look stupid, because they never bothered to think of it, and therefore it changes their perspective. These things can happen the more time goes on.

And also...This forum is a cult. Fandom is a cult. Everything in this world can be a cult.

I will respond to this in the appropriate forum.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 19, 2021, 11:46:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 19, 2021, 10:35:01 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 19, 2021, 08:46:49 AM

I think many conservatives liked Trump for saying what's on his mind when in fact that is a death kneel for politicians.  when you are a child you don't know better to say those things.  As an adult, you should learn what's appropriate to see and what you shouldn't say.

I agree with this; I think it was less about Trump and what he was saying than it was "a license to ill". 

Some people might be surprised that so many conservatives are Beastie Boys fans, but I happen to know that bosky has been know to ride across the land, kickin' up sand, Sheriff's posse on his tail 'cause he's in demand.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 19, 2021, 11:53:27 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 19, 2021, 11:46:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 19, 2021, 10:35:01 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 19, 2021, 08:46:49 AM

I think many conservatives liked Trump for saying what's on his mind when in fact that is a death kneel for politicians.  when you are a child you don't know better to say those things.  As an adult, you should learn what's appropriate to see and what you shouldn't say.

I agree with this; I think it was less about Trump and what he was saying than it was "a license to ill". 

Some people might be surprised that so many conservatives are Beastie Boys fans, but I happen to know that bosky has been know to ride across the land, kickin' up sand, Sheriff's posse on his tail 'cause he's in demand.

You know I would pay money to see him rap this.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 19, 2021, 01:21:24 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

People want to belong. And each belief system is a system of belonging and Faith. People that don't have this tend to fall victim easily to manipulation.

Cults take advantage of these people and make them do things, because they're exposing their weakness of belief and mind.

QAnon did just that to the people who's trust and belief in government is at an all time low. They need something to assure they'll be safe, so they fall victim to those that spew this stuff.

Scientology is another great example.

Some religions, some people think are cults. The Spaniards, holding their beliefs as truthful and the "Right, correct" way, viewed many people as Pagans and heretics. And actually went to the lengths to force people into their belief system.

(https://wp-files.dealerrefresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/06141647/iu.jpeg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 19, 2021, 01:22:51 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 19, 2021, 10:37:05 AM

I got my first shot this morning.   

I'm psyched (though every itch, pain, spasm, or sneeze triggers an immediate wave of panic).

Nice!  I'm getting mine in just over a week  :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on March 19, 2021, 02:09:46 PM

The wife got J&J last night. Very mild side effects and she is fine today. We are both vaccinated now!

Bummed to see the headlines though. Cases up in several states. Warnings of another surge with a variant strain. Ugghh! Seems like we just can't turn the corner all the way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 20, 2021, 09:32:06 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 11:23:16 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM

Quote from: Podaar on March 19, 2021, 05:04:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on March 18, 2021, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 18, 2021, 03:26:49 PM

One of the buddies of mine who I’ve spoke of quite a bit......big Trump guy......told me and two of my other buddies that we are going to die very young as the vaccine is just a way for ‘them’ to start to control the population by killing us off.

This is a college educated person who is very intelligent, very good job.....good family man.....someone who in any given moment t is a well reasoned person, who whole heartedly believes what he just told us in a group chat.

That's amazing.

That's amazingly sad. You've got to actively want to believe something as far fetched as that. It makes me curious about what he's lacking in his life that he would want to believe in such a paranoid/improbable view of the world.

People want to belong. And each belief system is a system of belonging and Faith. People that don't have this tend to fall victim easily to manipulation.

Cults take advantage of these people and make them do things, because they're exposing their weakness of belief and mind.

QAnon did just that to the people who's trust and belief in government is at an all time low. They need something to assure they'll be safe, so they fall victim to those that spew this stuff.

Scientology is another great example.

Some religions, some people think are cults. The Spaniards, holding their beliefs as truthful and the "Right, correct" way, viewed many people as Pagans and heretics. And actually went to the lengths to force people into their belief system.

Faith and Belief are not virtues and belief without reason are both dangerous and quite frankly - ridiculous. Keeping this to the topic at hand, people believe things about the virus that have no basis in fact but we already know this. They have inserted themselves as experts when they have no expertise in the subject but they feel justified because - well they believe. That's dangerous!

I will continue in the P/R section but I will leave this with  - ALL religions are cults and the religion of trump is the most dangerous of our lifetime.

See, here's the thing. What happens when that belief ends up being proven as fact? That is Science in a nutshell.

People have Faith in Science, but also they don't have to believe it. Just like people have faith in the new dream theater album being good, doesn't mean they believe it will be. Upon release, it's proven to be either true to your faith and belief it will be good, or totally prove your belief and faith wrong. Yet, you still hold faith for the new album and the tour being good, and maybe the songs being played live will convert you to believe the album is actually good.

Also, how do you become an expert? Sometimes, the expert doesn't know everything either. They aren't perfect as well. Which is why you have to have faith that the expert is telling you the truth as well. And when that faith is tested many times, and shown to be deceitful, it's kind of hard to trust the expert. Especially when they flip-flop.

For me, I don't consider no one an expert at anything. They are more well-versed and well-informed of what they do. And sometimes, people come in and say something to that expert which makes that expert look stupid, because they never bothered to think of it, and therefore it changes their perspective. These things can happen the more time goes on.

And also...This forum is a cult. Fandom is a cult. Everything in this world can be a cult.

Responded in the P/R section.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on March 20, 2021, 01:56:45 PM

Just got the single-dose J&J shot this morning. :metal Not feeling any side effects yet.

My dad called one of the big Boston medical centers on Thursday to see if he could schedule an appointment for himself since individuals 60 and older become eligible on Monday. To our surprise, they said they had a surplus of doses so not only could they immediately schedule him, but he was able to schedule me and my sister as well, and we're not supposed to be eligible until April 19th! Quite the unexpected but awesome surprise.

An interesting thing I heard from the nurse right before getting the shot was that while the J&J vaccine is a bit less effective from a percentage standpoint, trials have shown it to be effective against all four variants of Covid currently out and about, while the other two vaccines only seem to be effective against two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 20, 2021, 03:16:37 PM

That might not be accurate as the trials for J&J were done later, when the variants were more prevalent.  The trials for the first two were done prior to that.  Not saying the nurse was wrong, just that the trials were done at different times and that might have skew the results.  Pfizer and Moderna are now testing a third booster tailored to the new variants.
Just my understanding of it...I could be very wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 20, 2021, 04:12:42 PM

From what I've read the 2 shot vaccine is 95% effective and the J&J single shot is 70%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 20, 2021, 05:29:31 PM

From my understanding all of the US approved vaccines offer "some" protection against the current variants.  And that "some" is likely good enough for now.  I've only read the Astazeneca was not effective against the South African variant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 21, 2021, 05:25:22 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2021, 04:12:42 PM

From what I've read the 2 shot vaccine is 95% effective and the J&J single shot is 70%.

That's accurate.  However, it is also worth noting that during the trials there were ZERO deaths among the group of J&J participants who DID NOT receive a placebo.  Nor were there any hospitalizations.  Meaning, the J&J vaccine was 100% effective (in the trials) at preventing serious illness and death from covid-19 infection.  To be clear, some folks who had the J&J vaccine still got sick, but they all survived it, which is the point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on March 21, 2021, 05:34:38 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 20, 2021, 04:12:42 PM

From what I've read the 2 shot vaccine is 95% effective and the J&J single shot is 70%.

https://youtu.be/K3odScka55A (https://youtu.be/K3odScka55A)

This video gives a basic overview of what the efficacy rates mean.
Essentially it's hard to compare the numbers against each other because they refer to the rates of their own clinical trials.

They are all good and any one of them is better than getting none.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 21, 2021, 06:01:17 AM

I already had the first shot. It was from Moderna. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 21, 2021, 12:18:05 PM

Quote from: faizoff on March 21, 2021, 05:34:38 AM

They are all good and any one of them is better than getting none.

Yup and I will include astrazeneca that i've even spoken poorly about.  The more I've learned, it doesn't seem the blood clots are a big concern (seems more likely not related to the vaccine than is related) and even if it's not very effective against mutations, still better than nothing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on March 21, 2021, 01:26:39 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 21, 2021, 06:01:17 AM

I already had the first shot. It was from Moderna. 

No worries. I just had my 1st Pfizer shot today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 21, 2021, 05:00:16 PM

Miami Beach looks like an absolute shit-show.  It's like people think the end is in sight, so let's go back to normal!!   >:(

BTW, it ain't terribly different up here either - just not beach weather.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 22, 2021, 06:45:22 AM

Quote from: faizoff on March 21, 2021, 01:26:39 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 21, 2021, 06:01:17 AM

I already had the first shot. It was from Moderna. 

No worries. I just had my 1st Pfizer shot today.

Sorry if I came off as upset.  I wasn't t all. Just stating I had my 1st shot. 

Dad gets his 2nd shot this Saturday.  We are having him stay over Saturday night to be their incase he is weak and sick from the shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 22, 2021, 07:08:55 AM

I got mine Friday; Saturday and Sunday the arm hurt pretty bad.  I worked outside (I was burning brush and stuff) and found myself very tired on Saturday night; I slept through a sick dog and my wife up most of the night.  Sunday was worse; I wasn't "sick", but I wasn't myself.  I had a little nausea, and felt a little achy, but honestly I couldn't tell you if it was the shot or the work on Saturday.  Today, so far, I feel fine, and the arm is better.   

My daughter got hers on Friday and apparently Saturday she was pretty ill; chills, body aches, nausea.  She had COVID, so there's that, but at least it went away fairly quickly (couple hours).   We're both sort of sweating the second shot, though.

My parents go today.  To say I'm worried is an understatement; I don't know how they're going to cope with any significant side effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 22, 2021, 07:10:36 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 22, 2021, 07:08:55 AM

I got mine Friday; Saturday and Sunday the arm hurt pretty bad.  I worked outside (I was burning brush and stuff) and found myself very tired on Saturday night; I slept through a sick dog and my wife up most of the night.  Sunday was worse; I wasn't "sick", but I wasn't myself.  I had a little nausea, and felt a little achy, but honestly I couldn't tell you if it was the shot or the work on Saturday.  Today, so far, I feel fine, and the arm is better.   

My daughter got hers on Friday and apparently Saturday she was pretty ill; chills, body aches, nausea.  She had COVID, so there's that, but at least it went away fairly quickly (couple hours).   We're both sort of sweating the second shot, though.

My parents go today.  To say I'm worried is an understatement; I don't know how they're going to cope with any significant side effects.

My parents will be getting their no.2 on the same day. I'm going to take that day off from work. I want to be at their house just in case one of them gets bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 22, 2021, 07:20:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 21, 2021, 05:00:16 PM

Miami Beach looks like an absolute shit-show.  It's like people think the end is in sight, so let's go back to normal!!   >:(

BTW, it ain't terribly different up here either - just not beach weather.

Yeah, it looks pretty bad. I feel like we have the end in sight, but now there's talk of another wave that has me worrying.

I was trying to find a video I saw yesterday on the news. They interviewed some woman as to why she was there and her response was "I need to be drunk, I wanna be lit". Now, I'm not saying for people to stay home all the time until this is over (that's what I'm trying to do as much as I can, but I don't expect others to do the same), but if that's your reason for endangering yourself and who knows how many other people, then your priorities are in the wrong place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 22, 2021, 07:43:26 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 22, 2021, 07:08:55 AM

I got mine Friday; Saturday and Sunday the arm hurt pretty bad.  I worked outside (I was burning brush and stuff) and found myself very tired on Saturday night; I slept through a sick dog and my wife up most of the night.  Sunday was worse; I wasn't "sick", but I wasn't myself.  I had a little nausea, and felt a little achy, but honestly I couldn't tell you if it was the shot or the work on Saturday.  Today, so far, I feel fine, and the arm is better.   

My daughter got hers on Friday and apparently Saturday she was pretty ill; chills, body aches, nausea.  She had COVID, so there's that, but at least it went away fairly quickly (couple hours).   We're both sort of sweating the second shot, though.

My parents go today.  To say I'm worried is an understatement; I don't know how they're going to cope with any significant side effects.

I read something recently that said people while people typically have worse reactions to the second shot, if you have bad reactions to the first it might be a sign you already had covid. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 22, 2021, 09:35:34 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 22, 2021, 07:20:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 21, 2021, 05:00:16 PM

Miami Beach looks like an absolute shit-show.  It's like people think the end is in sight, so let's go back to normal!!   >:(

BTW, it ain't terribly different up here either - just not beach weather.

Yeah, it looks pretty bad. I feel like we have the end in sight, but now there's talk of another wave that has me worrying.

I was trying to find a video I saw yesterday on the news. They interviewed some woman as to why she was there and her response was "I need to be drunk, I wanna be lit". Now, I'm not saying for people to stay home all the time until this is over (that's what I'm trying to do as much as I can, but I don't expect others to do the same), but if that's your reason for endangering yourself and who knows how many other people, then your priorities are in the wrong place.

With how Society is in these modern times. That response does not surprise me at all. Although, it is the news, and they like to find the dumbest person there or the most dingy, so they can get their headline piece or to scare people with...See, this person doesn't care, and in turn you expect that all those people there are exactly like this person and their response. Making you become fearful of Florida...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 22, 2021, 02:56:07 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 19, 2021, 11:46:41 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 19, 2021, 10:35:01 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 19, 2021, 08:46:49 AM

I think many conservatives liked Trump for saying what's on his mind when in fact that is a death kneel for politicians.  when you are a child you don't know better to say those things.  As an adult, you should learn what's appropriate to see and what you shouldn't say.

I agree with this; I think it was less about Trump and what he was saying than it was "a license to ill". 

Some people might be surprised that so many conservatives are Beastie Boys fans, but I happen to know that bosky has been know to ride across the land, kickin' up sand, Sheriff's posse on his tail 'cause he's in demand.

I'm bosk1 and I get respect.  Your cash and your jewelry is what I expect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 22, 2021, 02:59:57 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 22, 2021, 07:20:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 21, 2021, 05:00:16 PM

Miami Beach looks like an absolute shit-show.  It's like people think the end is in sight, so let's go back to normal!!   >:(

BTW, it ain't terribly different up here either - just not beach weather.

Yeah, it looks pretty bad. I feel like we have the end in sight, but now there's talk of another wave that has me worrying.

I was trying to find a video I saw yesterday on the news. They interviewed some woman as to why she was there and her response was "I need to be drunk, I wanna be lit". Now, I'm not saying for people to stay home all the time until this is over (that's what I'm trying to do as much as I can, but I don't expect others to do the same), but if that's your reason for endangering yourself and who knows how many other people, then your priorities are in the wrong place.

I'm not gonna be that diplomatic about it.  People saying they're out there, in big crowds, maskless, during the middle of a pandemic wherein a communicable disease is killing 1000+ people per day, every day.  "Because I've got to be drunk, man, I have to party dude!"


They're fucking assholes, plain and simple. Selfish assholes. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 22, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Barry, young, dumb an they think they are invisible. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JLa on March 23, 2021, 03:58:05 AM

I'm so envious of you guys getting your vaccine shots. Vaccination here in Norway is horribly slow already, and now we've paused the Astrazeneca altogether due to the blood clot issue. It's really weird how we've seen so many (or, "many", I think it's 3 deaths and about 5 patients after 130 000 shots) cases when the rest of the world have seen very few. I would still take it if I got the chance, but it'll probably be scrapped now.

I think I'm on schedule for getting vaccinated in May or something. Just gotta stay home a little longer ...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.  I know MSNBC made big headlines with their pictures of a jam-packed Miami beach, and snarky, quippy comments like "looks like a human petri dish!" and calling people "COVIDIOTS" and worse.... and the picture was from 2019 (of course, CNN isn't covering that, but it's still out there for you to find).  It was all sensationalism.

BALANCE.  "Common sense" is neither common, nor sensical (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-power-prime/201107/common-sense-is-neither-common-nor-sense), and it can't be used as a hammer to get people to do what you want them to do when you want them to do it.     

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on March 23, 2021, 08:03:07 AM

AstraZeneca can't seem to catch a break with the DSMB cautioning their information may contain not up to date (old ) clinical trials data.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/niaid-statement-astrazeneca-vaccine

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2021, 10:14:31 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

The US has the 3 best vaccinations well in use that offer protection against all known variants (well J&J isn't well in use but about to really open up this week and going forward), which makes the US much better positioned than anywhere else quoted (Israel is the other spot that is well vaccinated).  I said before, I'm not ready to say we are having another wave.  The cases have slightly gone up, not really a huge amount, but deaths and hospitalizations have still been going down on the 7 day rolling average.  I'm with Stadler, let's see the data before we make claims.  You may be right that we'll see the lag in a few weeks, but I'm feeling somewhat confident that the data may actually show the effects of large vaccinations. Meaning, cases are with young people who can't or haven't been able to get vaccinated and deaths/hospitalizations are low. I've said before, and I'll say it again, looking at the data today, we should be in great position by Memorial Day.  I'll reverse my thoughts when the data shows otherwise.

Also, while I totally am not onboard with what's going on in Miami, I have yet to see a super spreader event from the outdoors.  I don't condone the stupidity of people, but if people want to gather on the hot beach in miami, I say that's a much better spot than in a club. I still think it's foolish to do any of that during a pandemic, but I'm not going to let it bother me anymore than the normal yearly stupid shit we see from kids in Florida during spring break.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 23, 2021, 10:18:36 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 23, 2021, 10:14:31 AM

I'll reverse my thoughts when the data shows otherwise.

What a novel thought.  /Californian

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2021, 10:24:53 AM

I say all this as my home state of NJ leads the nation in new cases.  We recently opened up more, it's kind of expected.  Our governor says don't expect any more lifting of restrictions and that does make sense as well.  Got to keep things balanced and monitor the data as we slowly open back up. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.    I'm not interested in that.  I've posted now FOUR FRIGGIN' TIMES that Florida, that cultural, moral, intellectual fucking garbage dump (sorry, Eric and emtee; I'm making a point here), has better or equal numbers to California, that wonderful nirvana of woke, enlightened liberals who are destined to show us the path to a new way of living. And nothing but crickets and finger pointing at the Neanderthals.  Again, I'm trying to be funny, in order to make a serious point, but the point IS serious.  You can't have it both ways.   I'm not "ignoring trends".   I'm looking at data like this:  fifth in the world in vaccinations, and a factor of over 6 from the next closest country (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations).   I'm looking at data like this:  Cases and deaths over the last 30 days TRENDING down (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home).  I'm looking at data like this:  Over the past seven days, Texas (the wild wild west) and Florida (see above) both have better cases/100k rates than New York and my state, Connecticut, who have been largely following the text book for most of the last year (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fcases-updates%2Fcases-in-us.html#cases_casesper100klast7days). 

Look, I'm sorry I'm coming in hot here, but please don't suggest I (or anyone) that doesn't embrace the panic and the anger and the fear is somehow missing something intellectually or analytically.   I've said I get it; I'm not saying anyone is "wrong" for their feelings.  I would say just the opposite, actually; but I'm also saying that "feelings" aren't "fact".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 23, 2021, 12:05:54 PM

What's the population per square mile in all 4 states?  It has to make a big difference here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 12:17:38 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 23, 2021, 12:05:54 PM

What's the population per square mile in all 4 states?  It has to make a big difference here.

CT:  734
NY:  410
FL:  405
TX:   39

That's number of residents per square mile (https://www.statista.com/statistics/183588/population-density-in-the-federal-states-of-the-us/).   I'm not going to lie:  surprised at some of those numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 23, 2021, 12:22:45 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 12:17:38 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 23, 2021, 12:05:54 PM

What's the population per square mile in all 4 states?  It has to make a big difference here.

CT:  734
NY:  410
FL:  405
TX:   39

That's number of residents per square mile (https://www.statista.com/statistics/183588/population-density-in-the-federal-states-of-the-us/).   I'm not going to lie:  surprised at some of those numbers.

Want to hear something really surprising? Waterbury is the 8th most populated city in the country.
https://i95rock.com/waterbury-named-8th-most-crowded-city-in-america/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2021, 12:22:57 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 23, 2021, 12:05:54 PM

What's the population per square mile in all 4 states?  It has to make a big difference here.

Also weather plays a role, up here in the Northeast we've all been stuck in our homes for the winter.  Florida has had outdoor dining all year.  Outdoors have generally been shown to be safe.

Also just read this today that explains why the US might not see a 4th wave which is pretty much what I wrote earlier today as to why the US is actually in very good position https://news.yahoo.com/covid-vaccines-might-stop-a-4th-wave-in-the-us-but-the-rest-of-the-world-isnt-so-lucky-090020655.html (https://news.yahoo.com/covid-vaccines-might-stop-a-4th-wave-in-the-us-but-the-rest-of-the-world-isnt-so-lucky-090020655.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 23, 2021, 12:36:57 PM

Here's a great article...

https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-lipid-shells-mRNA-vaccines/99/i8

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 23, 2021, 01:09:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 12:17:38 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 23, 2021, 12:05:54 PM

What's the population per square mile in all 4 states?  It has to make a big difference here.

CT:  734
NY:  410
FL:  405
TX:   39

That's number of residents per square mile (https://www.statista.com/statistics/183588/population-density-in-the-federal-states-of-the-us/).   I'm not going to lie:  surprised at some of those numbers.

Well the only monkey wrench is NY but we could also see that there are still large less populated pockets in NY while the big cities are jammed packed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 01:38:15 PM

Bill/Marc... I very much hope you're right, and I'm wrong.  I would like nothing more than to see my worries and concerns over something COVID related to be proven wrong.  And even if there is nothing to worry here, why risk it.  Why engage in potentially risky behaviours when - as Marc has said - just a couple more months and we (you) could very well be in the clear. 

Don't be Leon Lett.  Score the TD.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:50:26 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 22, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Barry, young, dumb an they think they are invisible.

Yeah, you're right.  Youth is wasted on the young  :censored

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 02:06:05 PM

BTW... further to my point that I'd like nothing more than the US NOT to have a 3rd/4th wave, it would mean that Canada is in good shape in a couple of months, since we're behind on the pace you guys are at with vaccine rollouts.  We've also approved the same four vaccines, and are anticipating supply of 20M doses (doses, not shots) by June-ish - more than enough to cover enough adults that want one and achieve herd immunity - or at least, close to it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:26:05 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 01:38:15 PM

Bill/Marc... I very much hope you're right, and I'm wrong.  I would like nothing more than to see my worries and concerns over something COVID related to be proven wrong.  And even if there is nothing to worry here, why risk it.  Why engage in potentially risky behaviours when - as Marc has said - just a couple more months and we (you) could very well be in the clear. 

Don't be Leon Lett.  Score the TD.

I'm with you, I really am.  I wear my mask wherever I go, and I haven't been in a restaurant since Father's Day of last year (and that was outside).   I'm just not one to tell people what they can and can't do, even if it affects me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:31:06 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 23, 2021, 12:22:45 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 12:17:38 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 23, 2021, 12:05:54 PM

What's the population per square mile in all 4 states?  It has to make a big difference here.

CT:  734
NY:  410
FL:  405
TX:   39

That's number of residents per square mile (https://www.statista.com/statistics/183588/population-density-in-the-federal-states-of-the-us/).   I'm not going to lie:  surprised at some of those numbers.

Want to hear something really surprising? Waterbury is the 8th most populated city in the country.
https://i95rock.com/waterbury-named-8th-most-crowded-city-in-america/

I'm actually speechless at that.  Seriously.  If I was guessing, it wouldn't even be top four in MY STATE.  (Hartford, Bridgeport, New Haven, Stamford).  Though now that I say it out loud, Bridgeport and New Haven are fairly spread out, geographically.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 02:51:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it.

I don't have a problem being called out.  But it's not like I've been saying anything that gives NY or Cali a pass or glowing report card or a  :tup for how they've handled their cases.  I just haven't personally seen actions or decisions by either their gov'ts or citizens that are (seemingly) so egregiously unwise as what I pointed out from Texas and Miami Beach.  Could be a lack of reporting up here though... maybe there are such examples and I just don't know.

So, I'm not sure how I may have come across as 'only using the data/math/science when it's convenient'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 02:51:52 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it.

OK, but I just read the last 3 pages and I have to be honest I've got no idea what you're talking about here.  You seem angry that people doing clearly stupid shit are being called idiots?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 02:54:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 02:51:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it.

I don't have a problem being called out.  But it's not like I've been saying anything that gives NY or Cali a pass or glowing report card or a  :tup for how they've handled their cases.  I just haven't personally seen actions or decisions by either their gov'ts or citizens that are (seemingly) so egregiously unwise as what I pointed out from Texas and Miami Beach.  Could be a lack of reporting up here though... maybe there are such examples and I just don't know.

So, I'm not sure how I may have come across as 'only using the data/math/science when it's convenient'.

You didn't.  I've now read the last 5 pages twice and I have no idea what Stadler is referring to, it's almost like there is either a page missing or something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2021, 04:47:45 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 02:51:52 PM

You seem angry that people doing clearly stupid shit are being called idiots?   

hey now! We lost a valued member of DTF from this!  :biggrin:

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 01:38:15 PM

Bill/Marc... I very much hope you're right, and I'm wrong.  I would like nothing more than to see my worries and concerns over something COVID related to be proven wrong.  And even if there is nothing to worry here, why risk it.  Why engage in potentially risky behaviours when - as Marc has said - just a couple more months and we (you) could very well be in the clear. 

Don't be Leon Lett.  Score the TD.

I don't disagree with anything you said.  I just am not ready to say "4th wave" when there just isn't any data to support that specifically for the US.  A lot of the news headlines come off as scare tactics right now and even some of the things the CDC says, when IMO the data doesn't support these statements.  I said before when I talked about Biden's July 4th comment, we can actually approach this positively and not make everything doom and gloom.  I think people need to see the light at the end of the tunnel that is clearly shining right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 07:17:49 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 02:51:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it.

I don't have a problem being called out.  But it's not like I've been saying anything that gives NY or Cali a pass or glowing report card or a  :tup for how they've handled their cases.  I just haven't personally seen actions or decisions by either their gov'ts or citizens that are (seemingly) so egregiously unwise as what I pointed out from Texas and Miami Beach.  Could be a lack of reporting up here though... maybe there are such examples and I just don't know.

So, I'm not sure how I may have come across as 'only using the data/math/science when it's convenient'.

Because - respectfully, always respectfully - what one person THINKS is "egregious" doesn't matter even in the slightest.  That assessment, of what is "egregious", is proven correct or not by whether it's reflected in the numbers, and it WASN'T.   So - and again, respectfully, I'm trying to answer your question directly without writing a novella - you're ignoring the data/math/science in order to maintain your definition of "egregious".   That's fine; it's your prerogative, but from what I've seen of you, you DO seem to care about being consistent, logical and reasonable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 07:33:47 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 02:54:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 02:51:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it.

I don't have a problem being called out.  But it's not like I've been saying anything that gives NY or Cali a pass or glowing report card or a  :tup for how they've handled their cases.  I just haven't personally seen actions or decisions by either their gov'ts or citizens that are (seemingly) so egregiously unwise as what I pointed out from Texas and Miami Beach.  Could be a lack of reporting up here though... maybe there are such examples and I just don't know.

So, I'm not sure how I may have come across as 'only using the data/math/science when it's convenient'.

You didn't.  I've now read the last 5 pages twice and I have no idea what Stadler is referring to, it's almost like there is either a page missing or something.

I'm sorry, I mean this nicely, but I think I'm being pretty clear and I think Chad is too.  We're talking about "idiots", but if their behavior isn't creating the spike (yet), if it isn't resulting in a statistically relevant number of increased cases/deaths, what's the point?  We have this conversation in one form or another in 10 different areas when it comes to politics: "harm" is the standard in so many ways, why not here?   And that's what the data - so far, I'll give you that - is telling us.   If they're not making people sick/sicker with reckless abandon, why then are they idiots?  Why should they change their behavior?

That's kind of like you calling me an idiot because I'm not wearing a mask right now as I type this. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 24, 2021, 08:11:59 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe. 

Not necessarily, it isn't.  That is not what the data shows at all, unless and until you add in some other variables as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 24, 2021, 08:38:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 07:33:47 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 02:54:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 02:51:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it.

I don't have a problem being called out.  But it's not like I've been saying anything that gives NY or Cali a pass or glowing report card or a  :tup for how they've handled their cases.  I just haven't personally seen actions or decisions by either their gov'ts or citizens that are (seemingly) so egregiously unwise as what I pointed out from Texas and Miami Beach.  Could be a lack of reporting up here though... maybe there are such examples and I just don't know.

So, I'm not sure how I may have come across as 'only using the data/math/science when it's convenient'.

You didn't.  I've now read the last 5 pages twice and I have no idea what Stadler is referring to, it's almost like there is either a page missing or something.

I'm sorry, I mean this nicely, but I think I'm being pretty clear and I think Chad is too.  We're talking about "idiots", but if their behavior isn't creating the spike (yet), if it isn't resulting in a statistically relevant number of increased cases/deaths, what's the point?  We have this conversation in one form or another in 10 different areas when it comes to politics: "harm" is the standard in so many ways, why not here?   And that's what the data - so far, I'll give you that - is telling us.   If they're not making people sick/sicker with reckless abandon, why then are they idiots?  Why should they change their behavior?

That's kind of like you calling me an idiot because I'm not wearing a mask right now as I type this.

(https://i.imgur.com/KGmi0Wa.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 24, 2021, 08:43:18 AM

What is the data telling us?  What data?  Not sure it can tell us anything about the spring breakers.  The data for covid-19 are lagging indicators, so we will see shortly if their behavior was idiotic.  Previous similar actions (large gatherings) have resulted in spikes/waves.  It is entirely reasonable to draw a conclusion this time will be the same to more/less degree.  Lagging data will either confirm or prove wrong. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

EDIT:  What Bosk said.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:06:53 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 24, 2021, 08:38:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 07:33:47 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 02:54:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 02:51:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 23, 2021, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2021, 07:33:11 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 23, 2021, 07:05:53 AM

I get the reaction, and I understand it.   But I'm not interested in "talk" about another wave.  I'm interested in hard data, and real numbers.

I think all you need to do is look at what's happening in the rest of the world.  What makes you think the US is any less susceptible to what's happening in Europe and Canada and South America?  Also, haven't we learned over the last year that changes in the data will show up 3-4 weeks after a specific event or change in behaviours?  Data may look good now.  Change the behaviour, and the data changes in a month or so.  So, what was happening 4 weeks ago that led to the data today?  Mass vaccinations of elderly and long-term care has a positive outcome.  Variant spread (more contagious, more impact to younger demographics) is the wave that has hit many nations, and is in progress here in Canada.  It's the small data blips that aren't being noticed except by those that are looking.  50% of all new cases here in Ontario are from the B117 variant.  Younger people are being hospitalized.  ICU beds are running low.

You don't run a sprint or a marathon by looking at your feet.  You have to pay attention to what is ahead of you.  It's not just "talk" of another wave - it's data TRENDS.  Science.  Math.  Ignoring it while looking at point in time data doesn't make it go away.

Look, I get you. I do.   But it seems to me that the "data", the "Science. Math." only seems to be used when it works for the argument and ignored when it doesn't.   

Did I miss a page in this thread?  Who is doing this?   ???

Well, it's all across the last page or so; I'm not going to call people out, but there was all kinds of judgment and name-calling when Texas opened up, and Florida has repeatedly been the butt of jokes about how "stupid" they are, but the data doesn't support that.  Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to be looking at the data to show the wave is coming.   It seemed to me that the data was invoked when it helped the argument (the wave) but ignored when it undermined the argument (Florida is a most wretched hive of scum and villainy). 

I could be wrong, it's just how I saw it.

I don't have a problem being called out.  But it's not like I've been saying anything that gives NY or Cali a pass or glowing report card or a  :tup for how they've handled their cases.  I just haven't personally seen actions or decisions by either their gov'ts or citizens that are (seemingly) so egregiously unwise as what I pointed out from Texas and Miami Beach.  Could be a lack of reporting up here though... maybe there are such examples and I just don't know.

So, I'm not sure how I may have come across as 'only using the data/math/science when it's convenient'.

You didn't.  I've now read the last 5 pages twice and I have no idea what Stadler is referring to, it's almost like there is either a page missing or something.

I'm sorry, I mean this nicely, but I think I'm being pretty clear and I think Chad is too.  We're talking about "idiots", but if their behavior isn't creating the spike (yet), if it isn't resulting in a statistically relevant number of increased cases/deaths, what's the point?  We have this conversation in one form or another in 10 different areas when it comes to politics: "harm" is the standard in so many ways, why not here?   And that's what the data - so far, I'll give you that - is telling us.   If they're not making people sick/sicker with reckless abandon, why then are they idiots?  Why should they change their behavior?

That's kind of like you calling me an idiot because I'm not wearing a mask right now as I type this.

(https://i.imgur.com/KGmi0Wa.jpg)

Yup, but I'm in a goddamn bunker.  :)   I work in my basement, on the opposite side of the house from where my family (usually) is during the day.  To say I'm "social distanced" is being polite.  "Ostracized" is a better word.   :) :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 09:14:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

You're right... the virus doesn't give a shit about anything, other than riding on aerosol droplets, and getting into the next host.  Maybe if you didn't have your back up on every XE post, you could easily interpret the comment that "non-essential travel" is an indirect route to close physical contact that could easily be avoided.  Which is an increased in risk/exposure that need not be taken.

It's like saying "drinking and driving isn't unsafe - how does the car know you're drunk".

Edit... let me modify this perhaps a little more appropriate for the analogy: how does the alcohol know you're driving?

C'mon man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 24, 2021, 09:17:09 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:06:53 AM

I work in my basement, on the opposite side of the house from where my family (usually) is during the day.  To say I'm "social distanced" is being polite.  "Ostracized" is a better word.   :) :) :)

I'm pretty close to that myself.

Can't wait to get my vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 24, 2021, 09:20:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 09:14:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

You're right... the virus doesn't give a shit about anything, other than riding on aerosol droplets, and getting into the next host.  Maybe if you didn't have your back up on every XE post, you could easily interpret the comment that "non-essential travel" is an indirect route to close physical contact that could easily be avoided.  Which is an increased in risk/exposure that need not be taken.

It's like saying "drinking and driving isn't unsafe - how does the car know you're drunk".

C'mon man.

Interlock...  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2021, 09:54:06 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 24, 2021, 08:43:18 AM

What is the data telling us?  What data?  Not sure it can tell us anything about the spring breakers.  The data for covid-19 are lagging indicators, so we will see shortly if their behavior was idiotic.  Previous similar actions (large gatherings) have resulted in spikes/waves.  It is entirely reasonable to draw a conclusion this time will be the same to more/less degree.  Lagging data will either confirm or prove wrong.

Yeah, we don't yet know the outcome of the spring break folks as it's currently happening so it'll be a couple weeks before we see that data.  But what we do know, is the 7 day rolling average of deaths per day have gone under 1k for the first time since November. I expect cases to continue to go up a bit though due to spring break and a lot of states opening up more.  As long death/hospitalizations remain low, I'm not too worried about cases going up.  Cases will never go away, we just need to limit deaths/hospitalizations and the data shows we are doing that.  It could change in due time, we will see.

And J&J facilities got FDA approval and we are about to see more shipments of those vaccines on top of Moderna/Pfizer continuing to ramp up.  A bunch of states are about to open the flood gates to anyone over 18 to be eligible for their vaccine. 

While I condone the unnecessary travel and the breaking of social distancing rules, I'm not terribly worried about what the younger folks are doing based solely on how well our vaccine rolllout is going. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 11:23:08 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 09:14:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

You're right... the virus doesn't give a shit about anything, other than riding on aerosol droplets, and getting into the next host.  Maybe if you didn't have your back up on every XE post, you could easily interpret the comment that "non-essential travel" is an indirect route to close physical contact that could easily be avoided.  Which is an increased in risk/exposure that need not be taken.

It's like saying "drinking and driving isn't unsafe - how does the car know you're drunk".

Edit... let me modify this perhaps a little more appropriate for the analogy: how does the alcohol know you're driving?

C'mon man.

Has nothing to do with XE.   It has everything to do with calling out subjective interpretations that others don't necessarily have to share.  What's essential to you may - or may not - be essential to me.   When you're providing leadership for a large group of people, whether it's the 5 million here in CT, or the 21 million people in Florida or the 330 million people in the U.S. of A., it shouldn't be subject to someone's whims and beliefs. 

Your analogy is flawed (you're not driving to avoid being drunk; they are separate acts that are unrelated), and in fact, makes my point.  The alcohol DOESN'T know.  It doesn't matter if you're driving or not as to whether you get shit-faced.

I'm frankly baffled at the push back.  I really am.   Eric - fairly, I'm not being criticial - asked "what data?", and we have the data since Febrary of 2020.  There's been at least one Spring Break in that time, and for the bulk of that time, we've seen pictures at various points of people seemingly to flout the "accepted" protocols for COVID transmission.   Ron DeSantis (Florida Governor, for those not in the know) has recently touted with pride their COVID response, including reluctance to put stricter requirements in place (https://www.wftv.com/news/florida/gov-ron-desantis-will-deliver-his-state-state-address-tuesday/S2DN2QDSAZD3FP4WAKYUASHII4/), despite broad criticism from those that opposed that approach (https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/17/us/desantis-covid-florida-invs/index.html).  (By the way, as an aside, a Google search of "CNN DeSantis COVID" is depressing, and a vivid reminder of the lengths CNN will go to out-Fox Fox News.)

And yet, as I have shown repeatedly, the total COVID numbers for Florida, in the year+ we've endured COVID, are equal to or better than California's.  To spell it out, that means Gavin Newsome's Draconian measures have resulted in a similiar (if not slightly worse) outcome than the "reckless" (in CNN's words) measures taken by DeSantis.  AND Florida gets the upside of the economic benefits therefrom.  That's the data to which I refer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 11:31:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

EDIT:  What Bosk said.

I am not lying or making anything up, stop manipulating me. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:51:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 11:23:08 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 09:14:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

You're right... the virus doesn't give a shit about anything, other than riding on aerosol droplets, and getting into the next host.  Maybe if you didn't have your back up on every XE post, you could easily interpret the comment that "non-essential travel" is an indirect route to close physical contact that could easily be avoided.  Which is an increased in risk/exposure that need not be taken.

It's like saying "drinking and driving isn't unsafe - how does the car know you're drunk".

Edit... let me modify this perhaps a little more appropriate for the analogy: how does the alcohol know you're driving?

C'mon man.

Has nothing to do with XE.   It has everything to do with calling out subjective interpretations that others don't necessarily have to share.  What's essential to you may - or may not - be essential to me.   When you're providing leadership for a large group of people, whether it's the 5 million here in CT, or the 21 million people in Florida or the 330 million people in the U.S. of A., it shouldn't be subject to someone's whims and beliefs. 

Your analogy is flawed (you're not driving to avoid being drunk; they are separate acts that are unrelated), and in fact, makes my point.  The alcohol DOESN'T know.  It doesn't matter if you're driving or not as to whether you get shit-faced.

I'm frankly baffled at the push back.  I really am.   Eric - fairly, I'm not being criticial - asked "what data?", and we have the data since Febrary of 2020.  There's been at least one Spring Break in that time, and for the bulk of that time, we've seen pictures at various points of people seemingly to flout the "accepted" protocols for COVID transmission.   Ron DeSantis (Florida Governor, for those not in the know) has recently touted with pride their COVID response, including reluctance to put stricter requirements in place (https://www.wftv.com/news/florida/gov-ron-desantis-will-deliver-his-state-state-address-tuesday/S2DN2QDSAZD3FP4WAKYUASHII4/), despite broad criticism from those that opposed that approach (https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/17/us/desantis-covid-florida-invs/index.html).  (By the way, as an aside, a Google search of "CNN DeSantis COVID" is depressing, and a vivid reminder of the lengths CNN will go to out-Fox Fox News.)

And yet, as I have shown repeatedly, the total COVID numbers for Florida, in the year+ we've endured COVID, are equal to or better than California's.  To spell it out, that means Gavin Newsome's Draconian measures have resulted in a similiar (if not slightly worse) outcome than the "reckless" (in CNN's words) measures taken by DeSantis.  AND Florida gets the upside of the economic benefits therefrom.  That's the data to which I refer.

See my post re gun restrictions. Pilots get no attaboys for flights that don't crash. We have no way of knowing how many lives were lost or saved based on the measures in place. California could have gone far worse, and Florida may have gone far better had they not taken their respective actions. In any case, the most generous assessment I've seen is that Florida had a similar per capita case count to California, but also had a higher per capita death toll. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:52:57 AM

Got my second shot this morning. Didn't get that tasty buzz I got from the first one. On the bright side, I'm now ~30 hours away from sitting in a Mexican restaurant and enjoying a nice meal and a couple of Negra Modellos. Can't wait.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 11:53:42 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 11:23:08 AM

AND Florida gets the upside of the economic benefits therefrom.  That's the data to which I refer.

That's not data, that's anecdotal observation.

I really need to give up using analogies with you, because your a far more skilled linguist to find any minor flaw in the analogy and exploit it.  Whether subjective or not, "essential" (travel or services) actually has been defined by many governments.  Subjective or not, the term is used to minimize physical congregation of people, and thus the spread of the virus.  How do you think Minnesota ended up with an outbreak because of the Sturgis bike rally?  Hint, Sturgis is NOT in MN.  The virus doesn't move on it's own - it travels via humans.  Hence the guidance of avoiding non-essential travel. 

#beginrant

Geez man, must you argue every little fucking nit, or can you not just 'get' a point once and a while and accept or (gasp!) agree with it?

#endrant

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 24, 2021, 12:30:34 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:51:32 AM

We have no way of knowing how many lives were lost or saved based on the measures in place. California could have gone far worse, and Florida may have gone far better had they not taken their respective actions. In any case, the most generous assessment I've seen is that Florida had a similar per capita case count to California, but also had a higher per capita death toll. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Excellent points.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on March 24, 2021, 01:48:59 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:52:57 AM

Got my second shot this morning. Didn't get that tasty buzz I got from the first one.

What shots did you get? I didn't feel anything after the 1st Pfizer shot, just mild arm soreness that barely lasted a day. 2nd shot is still 18 days away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 24, 2021, 01:50:59 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:52:57 AM

Got my second shot this morning. Didn't get that tasty buzz I got from the first one. On the bright side, I'm now ~30 hours away from sitting in a Mexican restaurant and enjoying a nice meal and a couple of Negra Modellos. Can't wait.

I'm with you.  April 6th for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 01:51:22 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 11:31:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

EDIT:  What Bosk said.

I am not lying or making anything up, stop manipulating me.

Relax; I said none of those things and I'm not "manipulating" you.  You made a statement that isn't accurate.  Nothing more or less than that.  You could have made that statement for any of 100 reasons, none of which are "lying" or "making things up".

Although this exchange is illuminating.  This is the lens by which so many people view things; black or white. It's either "truthful" (and all that comes with it) or "LYING!" (and all that comes with that).   There's a whole WORLD of grey out there that gets ignored by too many people.  Yes, no, and let's not forget, MAYBE.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 02:07:21 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:51:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 11:23:08 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 09:14:31 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

You're right... the virus doesn't give a shit about anything, other than riding on aerosol droplets, and getting into the next host.  Maybe if you didn't have your back up on every XE post, you could easily interpret the comment that "non-essential travel" is an indirect route to close physical contact that could easily be avoided.  Which is an increased in risk/exposure that need not be taken.

It's like saying "drinking and driving isn't unsafe - how does the car know you're drunk".

Edit... let me modify this perhaps a little more appropriate for the analogy: how does the alcohol know you're driving?

C'mon man.

Has nothing to do with XE.   It has everything to do with calling out subjective interpretations that others don't necessarily have to share.  What's essential to you may - or may not - be essential to me.   When you're providing leadership for a large group of people, whether it's the 5 million here in CT, or the 21 million people in Florida or the 330 million people in the U.S. of A., it shouldn't be subject to someone's whims and beliefs. 

Your analogy is flawed (you're not driving to avoid being drunk; they are separate acts that are unrelated), and in fact, makes my point.  The alcohol DOESN'T know.  It doesn't matter if you're driving or not as to whether you get shit-faced.

I'm frankly baffled at the push back.  I really am.   Eric - fairly, I'm not being criticial - asked "what data?", and we have the data since Febrary of 2020.  There's been at least one Spring Break in that time, and for the bulk of that time, we've seen pictures at various points of people seemingly to flout the "accepted" protocols for COVID transmission.   Ron DeSantis (Florida Governor, for those not in the know) has recently touted with pride their COVID response, including reluctance to put stricter requirements in place (https://www.wftv.com/news/florida/gov-ron-desantis-will-deliver-his-state-state-address-tuesday/S2DN2QDSAZD3FP4WAKYUASHII4/), despite broad criticism from those that opposed that approach (https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/17/us/desantis-covid-florida-invs/index.html).  (By the way, as an aside, a Google search of "CNN DeSantis COVID" is depressing, and a vivid reminder of the lengths CNN will go to out-Fox Fox News.)

And yet, as I have shown repeatedly, the total COVID numbers for Florida, in the year+ we've endured COVID, are equal to or better than California's.  To spell it out, that means Gavin Newsome's Draconian measures have resulted in a similiar (if not slightly worse) outcome than the "reckless" (in CNN's words) measures taken by DeSantis.  AND Florida gets the upside of the economic benefits therefrom.  That's the data to which I refer.

See my post re gun restrictions. Pilots get no attaboys for flights that don't crash. We have no way of knowing how many lives were lost or saved based on the measures in place. California could have gone far worse, and Florida may have gone far better had they not taken their respective actions. In any case, the most generous assessment I've seen is that Florida had a similar per capita case count to California, but also had a higher per capita death toll. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Of course we don't (have any way of knowing).   But that's a systemic limitation that affects all analyses.   So you implicitly control for those and move on.   The interesting thing for me is, many of those variables that we're ignoring make the case stronger that the judgments are premature/unwarranted.  California is a "richer" state by median household income (7th in the nation versus Florida at 38 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income)).  We're repeatedly told by our leaders that the wealthy have better healthcare outcomes.    California is a "younger" state by median age (9th in the nation at 37, versus Florida, 45th at 42).  We're repeatedly told by our leaders that the elderly are more susceptible to this virus (and are categorized as such in the vaccine priorities).

I've given the stats, from a reliable source (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) (that's the whole point):

California                       92,334  Cases/1M pop (31st)                      1,437 Deaths/1M pop (31st)
Deaths/M                       94,128  Cases/1M pop (29th)                     1,531 Deaths/1M pop  (27th)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 02:12:30 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 01:51:22 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 11:31:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 09:05:19 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 24, 2021, 08:01:58 AM

gathering in large numbers and traveling for non essential reasons is un-safe.  This isn’t exactly breaking news at this point, it’s the baseline of everything we’re all supposed to be doing for over a year now.

PROVABLY false; how does the virus know whether your travel is "essential" or not?  If travel is safe or not, it matters not why you're doing it.

EDIT:  What Bosk said.

I am not lying or making anything up, stop manipulating me.

Relax; I said none of those things and I'm not "manipulating" you.  You made a statement that isn't accurate.  Nothing more or less than that.  You could have made that statement for any of 100 reasons, none of which are "lying" or "making things up".

Although this exchange is illuminating.  This is the lens by which so many people view things; black or white. It's either "truthful" (and all that comes with it) or "LYING!" (and all that comes with that).   There's a whole WORLD of grey out there that gets ignored by too many people.  Yes, no, and let's not forget, MAYBE.

you’re doing it again, my statement was accurate. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 24, 2021, 02:15:38 PM

Xe, nobody is "doing" anything to you.  Either contribute to the discussion or don't.  But don't play the victim for somebody pointing out that something you said is wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 02:32:35 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 11:53:42 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 11:23:08 AM

AND Florida gets the upside of the economic benefits therefrom.  That's the data to which I refer.

That's not data, that's anecdotal observation.

I really need to give up using analogies with you, because your a far more skilled linguist to find any minor flaw in the analogy and exploit it.  Whether subjective or not, "essential" (travel or services) actually has been defined by many governments.  Subjective or not, the term is used to minimize physical congregation of people, and thus the spread of the virus.  How do you think Minnesota ended up with an outbreak because of the Sturgis bike rally?  Hint, Sturgis is NOT in MN.  The virus doesn't move on it's own - it travels via humans.  Hence the guidance of avoiding non-essential travel. 

#beginrant

Geez man, must you argue every little fucking nit, or can you not just 'get' a point once and a while and accept or (gasp!) agree with it?

#endrant

I don't know how to respond to this other than to say you've got no basis to rant at me.  Why should I agree with something I don't believe and that isn't sustained - or at the very least seems contradicted - by hard data?   Why should I go along with what someone else just "feels" is the right thing?  I don't see anyone bending over backward to show any deference to what I "feel", and I've taken to providing sources for almost everything I say lately (for that very reason).  I had three people - you, Eric and Barry - ask for data, and I gave it to you.  You don't have to accept the conclusion, but at least my conclusions are based in some part in hard data.  I'm at a loss for how that is nitpicking?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 02:34:25 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:52:57 AM

Got my second shot this morning. Didn't get that tasty buzz I got from the first one. On the bright side, I'm now ~30 hours away from sitting in a Mexican restaurant and enjoying a nice meal and a couple of Negra Modellos. Can't wait.

I got no buzz from the first one; if anything, Sunday I felt mildly hungover!  :)

My second is on April 16th (though I have to reschedule).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 24, 2021, 02:52:51 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 24, 2021, 08:43:18 AM

What is the data telling us?  What data?  Not sure it can tell us anything about the spring breakers.  The data for covid-19 are lagging indicators, so we will see shortly if their behavior was idiotic.  Previous similar actions (large gatherings) have resulted in spikes/waves.  It is entirely reasonable to draw a conclusion this time will be the same to more/less degree.  Lagging data will either confirm or prove wrong.

I might be going way out on a limb here and this may seem radical to some people but isn't there a chance that in a pandemic featuring a rapidly mutating and deadly respiratory disease that is still infecting about 60,000 people and killing 1,000 people per day in the US, again I know this may be radical thinking here, but is there any chance that gathering in massive, close groups, indoors with no PPE could, you know, be problematic?


Asking for a friend.


 :\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2021, 03:05:11 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 24, 2021, 02:52:51 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 24, 2021, 08:43:18 AM

What is the data telling us?  What data?  Not sure it can tell us anything about the spring breakers.  The data for covid-19 are lagging indicators, so we will see shortly if their behavior was idiotic.  Previous similar actions (large gatherings) have resulted in spikes/waves.  It is entirely reasonable to draw a conclusion this time will be the same to more/less degree.  Lagging data will either confirm or prove wrong.

I might be going way out on a limb here and this may seem radical to some people but isn't there a chance that in a pandemic featuring a rapidly mutating and deadly respiratory disease that is still infecting about 60,000 people and killing 1,000 people per day in the US, again I know this may be radical thinking here, but is there any chance that gathering in massive, close groups, indoors with no PPE could, you know, be problematic?


Asking for a friend.


 :\

I'm not entirely sure I read anyone disagreeing with this. I certainly expect a spike in cases, and I would personally consider the spring breakers to be "idiotic" in the sense that they should not be traveling and gathering for the purpose of partying.  However what I am not ready to say, and it is entirely in the realm of possibilities, is an increase in deaths/hospitalizations.  I think this is a true test to see if our vaccines are working and at this moment, I have faith that they will protect the most susceptible of our population who is already mostly vaccinated.  We will see in a few weeks when the data lag shows the numbers from what's happening today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 24, 2021, 03:11:17 PM

These three paragraphs from this opinion piece (https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/23/opinions/ron-desantis-gavin-newsom-covid-sepkowitz/index.html) on CNN.com cite official facts and data from non-partisan sources. 

Quote

Now DeSantis is claiming again to be a master of pandemic control, as Florida's beach-tourism-restaurant industry is said to be doing well. Never mind that the state's seven-day infection rate of 143.9 per 100,000 population places it 12th highest of the 50 states (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesper100klast7days).


DeSantis is so tickled with himself that he even gathered admiring scientists (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-desantis-covid-scientists-20210318-5wpcx3kjyvauvnanntmhxqkcmq-story.html) like the former Trump coronavirus adviser Dr. Scott Atlas -- a neuroradiologist -- to celebrate his prescience. He played the same trick in September (https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/2020/09/24/desantis-roundtable-on-public-health/3515876001/) when he thought the worst had passed.


The problem is this: by the time the ink was dry on DeSantis' latest claim that "Everyone told me I was wrong ... (but) it's clear. Florida got it right, (https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/17/politics/ron-desantis-covid-florida/index.html)" newer data showed trends flipping to the wrong direction. For example, as of March 22, over the last seven days, Florida has had the most Covid-19 cases in the country (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesinlast7days), according to data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the 12th highest per capita case-rate, the fourth highest number of deaths, and the 17th highest death rate. (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_deathsinlast7days)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 03:15:50 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 24, 2021, 03:05:11 PM

I'm not entirely sure I read anyone disagreeing with this. I certainly expect a spike in cases, and I would personally consider the spring breakers to be "idiotic" in the sense that they should not be traveling and gathering for the purpose of partying.  However what I am not ready to say, and it is entirely in the realm of possibilities, is an increase in deaths/hospitalizations.  I think this is a true test to see if our vaccines are working and at this moment, I have faith that they will protect the most susceptible of our population who is already mostly vaccinated.  We will see in a few weeks when the data lag shows the numbers from what's happening today.

Problem is, without extensive contract tracing, it's unlikely to be able to pinpoint how/where spikes or outbreaks took place because of this.  It took quite a while and a few studies to get any perspectives from Sturgis.  And in 4 weeks, is contact tracing really going to be a priority, when everyone is just rushing to get to the finish line?

Look, I've no doubt my brain has been conditioned over the past 12 months to recognize this kind of behaviour as BAD no matter what.  But I'm also a risk averse individual in general.  In the famous words of Winston Wolf, "Well, let's not start suckin each other's dicks quite yet"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 03:40:12 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 24, 2021, 02:52:51 PM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 24, 2021, 08:43:18 AM

What is the data telling us?  What data?  Not sure it can tell us anything about the spring breakers.  The data for covid-19 are lagging indicators, so we will see shortly if their behavior was idiotic.  Previous similar actions (large gatherings) have resulted in spikes/waves.  It is entirely reasonable to draw a conclusion this time will be the same to more/less degree.  Lagging data will either confirm or prove wrong.

I might be going way out on a limb here and this may seem radical to some people but isn't there a chance that in a pandemic featuring a rapidly mutating and deadly respiratory disease that is still infecting about 60,000 people and killing 1,000 people per day in the US, again I know this may be radical thinking here, but is there any chance that gathering in massive, close groups, indoors with no PPE could, you know, be problematic?


Asking for a friend.


 :\

Of COURSE there's a chance.  How could there not be?   

So what do we do?  FORCE everyone to act in the most cautious way possible on that chance, or something in between, or nothing at all, all the while calling people that don't agree with us names?  That's really what this is all about.  I'm not saying any of you are WRONG (in fact, the opposite; there's far more respect here than any one post might indicate).  I'm saying that before we go to the next step - of action - there has to be something more than fear and a chance.  There just does; that's how free societies work (or should work). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 03:43:30 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 03:15:50 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 24, 2021, 03:05:11 PM

I'm not entirely sure I read anyone disagreeing with this. I certainly expect a spike in cases, and I would personally consider the spring breakers to be "idiotic" in the sense that they should not be traveling and gathering for the purpose of partying.  However what I am not ready to say, and it is entirely in the realm of possibilities, is an increase in deaths/hospitalizations.  I think this is a true test to see if our vaccines are working and at this moment, I have faith that they will protect the most susceptible of our population who is already mostly vaccinated.  We will see in a few weeks when the data lag shows the numbers from what's happening today.

Problem is, without extensive contract tracing, it's unlikely to be able to pinpoint how/where spikes or outbreaks took place because of this.  It took quite a while and a few studies to get any perspectives from Sturgis.  And in 4 weeks, is contact tracing really going to be a priority, when everyone is just rushing to get to the finish line?

Look, I've no doubt my brain has been conditioned over the past 12 months to recognize this kind of behaviour as BAD no matter what.  But I'm also a risk averse individual in general.  In the famous words of Winston Wolf, "Well, let's not start suckin each other's dicks quite yet"

And that's the ultimate question right there, Chad:  how do 330 million people, some risk averse, some not, some in-between, learn to coexist?    I happen to be risk averse myself; where I differ from several here is that I'm very wary of projecting my risk-averseness on others, even if it means more risk - ultimately - for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2021, 03:53:18 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 24, 2021, 03:11:17 PM

These three paragraphs from this opinion piece (https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/23/opinions/ron-desantis-gavin-newsom-covid-sepkowitz/index.html) on CNN.com cite official facts and data from non-partisan sources. 

Quote

Now DeSantis is claiming again to be a master of pandemic control, as Florida's beach-tourism-restaurant industry is said to be doing well. Never mind that the state's seven-day infection rate of 143.9 per 100,000 population places it 12th highest of the 50 states (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesper100klast7days).


DeSantis is so tickled with himself that he even gathered admiring scientists (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-desantis-covid-scientists-20210318-5wpcx3kjyvauvnanntmhxqkcmq-story.html) like the former Trump coronavirus adviser Dr. Scott Atlas -- a neuroradiologist -- to celebrate his prescience. He played the same trick in September (https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/2020/09/24/desantis-roundtable-on-public-health/3515876001/) when he thought the worst had passed.


The problem is this: by the time the ink was dry on DeSantis' latest claim that "Everyone told me I was wrong ... (but) it's clear. Florida got it right, (https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/17/politics/ron-desantis-covid-florida/index.html)" newer data showed trends flipping to the wrong direction. For example, as of March 22, over the last seven days, Florida has had the most Covid-19 cases in the country (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesinlast7days), according to data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the 12th highest per capita case-rate, the fourth highest number of deaths, and the 17th highest death rate. (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_deathsinlast7days)

That is all true, and all documentable.  I don't know that it changes the discussion (unless the discussion is "Is Ron DeSantis a baldfaced political opportunist looking to capitalize on something that has nothing to do with him?").  Click on the last link there; "4th highest number of deaths and 17th highest death rate".  Where do they fall against states that DID take more aggressive precautions?

Florida               371 deaths/7 days    0.3 Deaths/100k people/7 days        9,215  Cases/100k    152 Deaths/100k
California        1,224 deaths/7 days    0.4 Deaths/100k people/7 days        8,982  Cases/100k     143 Deaths/100k
Connecticut         46 deaths/7 days    0.2  Deaths/100k people/7 days        8,430  Cases/100k    220 Deaths/100k

If you look at the last seven days, California is worse.  They are, by all accounts, far more restrictive than Florida.  My state, Connecticut, is as bad or worse, and I can tell you we are WAYYYYYY more restrictive than Florida (my brother and I compare notes).   That, to me, tells me something more than "restrictions" are at play here.   So what's the take-away? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 04:18:33 PM

Quote from: faizoff on March 24, 2021, 01:48:59 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:52:57 AM

Got my second shot this morning. Didn't get that tasty buzz I got from the first one.

What shots did you get? I didn't feel anything after the 1st Pfizer shot, just mild arm soreness that barely lasted a day. 2nd shot is still 18 days away.

Pfizer. Truth is, I think it's a crapshoot across the board as to how people react to the vaccines (any of them). Nothing at all, severe reaction, mild flu-like symptoms, or a cool buzz. In my case I think it created an adrenal reaction. I had the same mild buzz that I get after a significant panic situation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 24, 2021, 05:09:23 PM

Hey guys - Long time/no time!  Glad to read so many of you are getting the jab.  That is so great.  This vaccine's efficacy is so stunningly amazing and I believe we are definitely on the track to getting back to normal.  It's been a long time coming.

And that is what my post here today is to ask you about.  Because I've been noticing some very interesting reactions to the notion of "getting back to normal."  I've been noticing resistance and confusion about post-vaccine behaviors that are being dubbed "acceptable" and "not acceptable."  As most of you know, the CDC has said that 2 or more fully vaccinated people can get together and socialize without masks.  Schools are decreasing the 6 foot rule (The WHO has always been 1 meter but Americans are notoriously not great with the metric system) down to 3 feet for social distancing.  On the rare instance that a fully vaccinated person is exposed to someone with COVID, they don't have to quarantine.  I've recently read some research that seems to support all these things - Israel for example - doing a wonderful job of getting out the jabs - is showing the viral load in people 14 days post vax x2 goes down to (IIRC) like 15%.  There are other studies coming out as well - viral load in pre-op people in the Mayo Clinic system down to 20%.  So seemingly a damn fine benefit of being fully vaccinated is that you are FAR less likely to spread it around to others.  Studies from parts of the world with the variants are still showing this level of protection against severe disease and death.  Fantastic!

And yet by and large, people are being asked (at least in the US) not to change many other behaviors.  Post something on social media about not wearing a mask while walking outside after full vaccination and prepare to be blasted by people calling you selfish.

Talk about fully vaccinated parents traveling with their unvaccinated kids and you are committing child abuse.

Talk about finally getting together socializing with a group of fully vaccinated adults in say a restaurant (support local businesses!) and you are horrible for putting your waitress at risk because she's not vaccinated yet.

There seems to be no winning.  And people seem very rigid about applying their own risk aversion recipe to yours, while most don't have any clue as to how this virus is actually impacted post vaccine.  I'm starting to think there is a segment of the population that really don't want to give up on the fear they've been living under for more than a year.  I'm starting to think that this pandemic has impacted people mentally and emotionally more than they are willing to admit (and I can relate to an extent).

I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind here.  I'm wearing my mask inside when in public places.  I'm not traveling much (yet).  But it would sure be nice to stop getting dirty looks from people who do not know my vaccine status when I'm taking a walk OUTSIDE without a mask on.

We are never going to get to Covid zero.  Once I realized that and considered that all of us take certain risks every day and think nothing about it, I started to change my thinking about where my comfort level is and how I'm applying it to others.  And I stopped judging.  We already know that shaming people is uneffective.  So why is it continuing?

The mental health fall out from this past year is going to wind up being quite a toll.  And sure, it may not kill half a million people so it's not comparable to a runaway pandemic, but it IS important to consider.  The amount of fear that people have been living under has been significant.  It's not going to go away any time soon.  In fact, it may just get a whole lot worse as we begin to open up and "go back to normal."

I welcome your thoughts.   :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 05:37:50 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 24, 2021, 05:09:23 PM

Hey guys - Long time/no time! 

 :tup

Quote

Glad to read so many of you are getting the jab.  That is so great.  This vaccine's efficacy is so stunningly amazing and I believe we are definitely on the track to getting back to normal.  It's been a long time coming.

And that is what my post here today is to ask you about.  Because I've been noticing some very interesting reactions to the notion of "getting back to normal."  I've been noticing resistance and confusion about post-vaccine behaviors that are being dubbed "acceptable" and "not acceptable."  As most of you know, the CDC has said that 2 or more fully vaccinated people can get together and socialize without masks.  Schools are decreasing the 6 foot rule (The WHO has always been 1 meter but Americans are notoriously not great with the metric system) down to 3 feet for social distancing.  On the rare instance that a fully vaccinated person is exposed to someone with COVID, they don't have to quarantine.  I've recently read some research that seems to support all these things - Israel for example - doing a wonderful job of getting out the jabs - is showing the viral load in people 14 days post vax x2 goes down to (IIRC) like 15%.  There are other studies coming out as well - viral load in pre-op people in the Mayo Clinic system down to 20%.  So seemingly a damn fine benefit of being fully vaccinated is that you are FAR less likely to spread it around to others.  Studies from parts of the world with the variants are still showing this level of protection against severe disease and death.  Fantastic!

And yet by and large, people are being asked (at least in the US) not to change many other behaviors.  Post something on social media about not wearing a mask while walking outside after full vaccination and prepare to be blasted by people calling you selfish.

Talk about fully vaccinated parents traveling with their unvaccinated kids and you are committing child abuse.

Talk about finally getting together socializing with a group of fully vaccinated adults in say a restaurant (support local businesses!) and you are horrible for putting your waitress at risk because she's not vaccinated yet.

There seems to be no winning.  And people seem very rigid about applying their own risk aversion recipe to yours, while most don't have any clue as to how this virus is actually impacted post vaccine.  I'm starting to think there is a segment of the population that really don't want to give up on the fear they've been living under for more than a year.  I'm starting to think that this pandemic has impacted people mentally and emotionally more than they are willing to admit (and I can relate to an extent).

I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind here.  I'm wearing my mask inside when in public places.  I'm not traveling much (yet).  But it would sure be nice to stop getting dirty looks from people who do not know my vaccine status when I'm taking a walk OUTSIDE without a mask on.

We are never going to get to Covid zero.  Once I realized that and considered that all of us take certain risks every day and think nothing about it, I started to change my thinking about where my comfort level is and how I'm applying it to others.  And I stopped judging.  We already know that shaming people is uneffective.  So why is it continuing?

The mental health fall out from this past year is going to wind up being quite a toll.  And sure, it may not kill half a million people so it's not comparable to a runaway pandemic, but it IS important to consider.  The amount of fear that people have been living under has been significant.  It's not going to go away any time soon.  In fact, it may just get a whole lot worse as we begin to open up and "go back to normal."

I welcome your thoughts.   :heart

Time for me to be cynical and all "doom and gloom." I think you said it yourself. "There seems to be no winning." We're an increasingly combative people, and where these things most easily sort themselves out with the occasional fisticuffs or kill crazy rampage, this is one where we're only arguing ideas. You don't get to settle it with a duel or a civil war. There is no victory except conceding that you're not 100% completely and objectively correct. We're not particularly good at that anymore. There literally is no winning.  I suspect eventually what will happen is that we'll naturally progress to a hybrid of these ideas and that will become the new normal. In the meantime we'll just continue being assholes about it. "Fuck you for endangering your kid that poor waitress."  "Oh, yeah? Well you're an idiot who's been brainwashed and fuck you for destroying our wonderful economy." Maybe throw in a "move to Russia!" here and there.

The good news is that both sides desperately want to get back to normal. While that may never happen, we'll certainly readopt most of the behaviors of normalcy soon enough, and when people are fat and happy they're not so keen to start wars with each other. This will pass. (Eh, not so gloomy after all.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2021, 06:08:35 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 24, 2021, 05:09:23 PM

And yet by and large, people are being asked (at least in the US) not to change many other behaviors.  Post something on social media about not wearing a mask while walking outside after full vaccination and prepare to be blasted by people calling you selfish.

Talk about fully vaccinated parents traveling with their unvaccinated kids and you are committing child abuse.

Talk about finally getting together socializing with a group of fully vaccinated adults in say a restaurant (support local businesses!) and you are horrible for putting your waitress at risk because she's not vaccinated yet.

There seems to be no winning.  And people seem very rigid about applying their own risk aversion recipe to yours, while most don't have any clue as to how this virus is actually impacted post vaccine.  I'm starting to think there is a segment of the population that really don't want to give up on the fear they've been living under for more than a year.  I'm starting to think that this pandemic has impacted people mentally and emotionally more than they are willing to admit (and I can relate to an extent).

I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind here.  I'm wearing my mask inside when in public places.  I'm not traveling much (yet).  But it would sure be nice to stop getting dirty looks from people who do not know my vaccine status when I'm taking a walk OUTSIDE without a mask on.

We are never going to get to Covid zero.  Once I realized that and considered that all of us take certain risks every day and think nothing about it, I started to change my thinking about where my comfort level is and how I'm applying it to others.  And I stopped judging.  We already know that shaming people is uneffective.  So why is it continuing?

  The amount of fear that people have been living under has been significant. 

Lots to chew on here.

As far as taking risks everyday and thinking nothing about it, I've spent practically 6 days a week for the last year in a grocery store averaging 9 hour work days. I take my precautions the best I can. Mask on, gloves where possible, washing hands. Social distancing. I shower and wash my clothes after every shift. My wife won't kiss me until I get out of the shower.

We had actually been out to dinner a handful of times over the past year. My family is lucky enough to be fully vaccinated. We went out to dinner on St. Patty's Day...the place was packed.

We haven't lived in fear, or have been necessarily careless either. But we're not hiding in our basement. My son (a senior in HS) goes to school 4 days a week.

At some point, we need to stop the judging. I've seen it all at work. It's like walking road rage. Which reminds me, posting on social media is only inviting criticisms. I mean, if you don't want some dude to give you the finger don't get on the highway.



I have no problem with mask mandates in stores for the time being. But at some point, the masks are coming off. I can't wait.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 06:24:02 PM

Harmony!!!

:panicattack:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:28:46 PM

great read   great talk and debate i think sadly there is no right or wrong,  I have not been vaccinated and do not plan on getting it unless im beaten into it by mules...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2021, 06:35:59 PM

What I agree with Harmony is that the leaders of our country say we should get vaccinated and in the same sentence say nothing else changes.  It's a conflicting statement IMO, however, I just wish they urged more of "get vaccinated now, stay social distance for the time being... once we get most people vaccinated, things will be OK" and NO ONE is saying that. None of our leaders are talking about the light at the end of the tunnel and it's making people, like myself, say what's the point of all our science if in the end nothing changes?  To me, it only encourages the anti-vaxxers.  It goes back to Biden saying maybe we can have a small out door gather for july 4th.  Sorry, but if most of the US is vaccinated, you should be able to do anything we otherwise could do, at least according to the scientific data of efficacy of these vaccines.  I've said before and I'll say again, my opinion can change when the scientific data changes. 

Here's an interesting article (it may be behind a paywall) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/briefing/boulder-shooting-george-segal-astrazeneca.amp.html (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/briefing/boulder-shooting-george-segal-astrazeneca.amp.html) so here's the full text

Quote

Bad News Bias
The U.S. media is offering a different picture of Covid-19 from science journals or the international media, a study finds.

David Leonhardt
By David Leonhardt
March 24, 2021, 6:47 a.m. ET
Bruce Sacerdote, an economics professor at Dartmouth College, noticed something last year about the Covid-19 television coverage that he was watching on CNN and PBS. It almost always seemed negative, regardless of what was he seeing in the data or hearing from scientists he knew.

When Covid cases were rising in the U.S., the news coverage emphasized the increase. When cases were falling, the coverage instead focused on those places where cases were rising. And when vaccine research began showing positive results, the coverage downplayed it, as far as Sacerdote could tell.

But he was not sure whether his perception was correct. To check, he began working with two other researchers, building a database of Covid coverage from every major network, CNN, Fox News, Politico, The New York Times and hundreds of other sources, in the U.S. and overseas. The researchers then analyzed it with a social-science technique that classifies language as positive, neutral or negative.

The results showed that Sacerdote’s instinct had been right — and not just because the pandemic has been mostly a grim story.

The U.S. media is an outlier
The coverage by U.S. publications with a national audience has been much more negative than coverage by any other source that the researchers analyzed, including scientific journals, major international publications and regional U.S. media. “The most well-read U.S. media are outliers in terms of their negativity,” Molly Cook, a co-author of the study, told me.

About 87 percent of Covid coverage in national U.S. media last year was negative. The share was 51 percent in international media, 53 percent in U.S. regional media and 64 percent in scientific journals.

Notably, the coverage was negative in both U.S. media outlets with liberal audiences (like MSNBC) and those with conservative audiences (like Fox News).

If we’re constantly telling a negative story, we are not giving our audience the most accurate portrait of reality. We are shading it. We are doing a good job telling you why Covid cases are rising in some places and how the vaccines are imperfect — but not such a good job explaining why cases are falling elsewhere or how the vaccines save lives. Perhaps most important, we are not being clear about which Covid developments are truly alarming.

As Ranjan Sehgal, another co-author, told me, “The media is painting a picture that is a little bit different from what the scientists are saying.”

Why the bad-news bias?
The researchers say they are not sure what explains their findings, but they do have a leading contender: The U.S. media is giving the audience what it wants.

When the researchers examined which stories were the most read or the most shared on Facebook, they tended to be the most negative stories. To put it another way, the stories that people choose to read skew even more negative than the stories that media organizations choose to publish. “Human beings, particularly consumers of major media, like negativity in their stories,” Sacerdote said. “We think the major media are responding to consumer demand.”

That idea is consistent with the patterns in the data, Sacerdote added: It makes sense that national publications have better instincts about reaching a large audience than, say, science journals. And overseas, some of the most influential English-language media organizations — like the BBC — have long received government funding, potentially making them less focused on consumer demand.

All of that sounds plausible to me, but I don’t think it is the full explanation. I have worked in media for nearly three decades, and I think you might be surprised by how little time journalists spend talking about audience size. We care about it, obviously, but most journalists I know care much more about other factors, like doing work that has an impact.

In the modern era of journalism — dating roughly to the Vietnam War and Watergate — we tend to equate impact with asking tough questions and exposing problems. There are some good reasons for that. We are inundated by politicians, business executives, movie stars and others trying to portray themselves in the best light. Our job is to cut through the self-promotion and find the truth. If we don’t tell you the bad news, you may never hear it.

Sometimes, though, our healthy skepticism can turn into reflexive cynicism, and we end up telling something less than the complete story. I am grateful to Sacerdote, Cook and Sehgal for doing to us journalists what we normally do to others — holding up a mirror to our work and giving us a chance to do better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:36:31 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2021, 06:08:35 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 24, 2021, 05:09:23 PM

And yet by and large, people are being asked (at least in the US) not to change many other behaviors.  Post something on social media about not wearing a mask while walking outside after full vaccination and prepare to be blasted by people calling you selfish.

Talk about fully vaccinated parents traveling with their unvaccinated kids and you are committing child abuse.

Talk about finally getting together socializing with a group of fully vaccinated adults in say a restaurant (support local businesses!) and you are horrible for putting your waitress at risk because she's not vaccinated yet.

There seems to be no winning.  And people seem very rigid about applying their own risk aversion recipe to yours, while most don't have any clue as to how this virus is actually impacted post vaccine.  I'm starting to think there is a segment of the population that really don't want to give up on the fear they've been living under for more than a year.  I'm starting to think that this pandemic has impacted people mentally and emotionally more than they are willing to admit (and I can relate to an extent).

I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind here.  I'm wearing my mask inside when in public places.  I'm not traveling much (yet).  But it would sure be nice to stop getting dirty looks from people who do not know my vaccine status when I'm taking a walk OUTSIDE without a mask on.

We are never going to get to Covid zero.  Once I realized that and considered that all of us take certain risks every day and think nothing about it, I started to change my thinking about where my comfort level is and how I'm applying it to others.  And I stopped judging.  We already know that shaming people is uneffective.  So why is it continuing?

  The amount of fear that people have been living under has been significant. 

Lots to chew on here.

As far as taking risks everyday and thinking nothing about it, I've spent practically 6 days a week for the last year in a grocery store averaging 9 hour work days. I take my precautions the best I can. Mask on, gloves where possible, washing hands. Social distancing. I shower and wash my clothes after every shift. My wife won't kiss me until I get out of the shower.

We had actually been out to dinner a handful of times over the past year. My family is lucky enough to be fully vaccinated. We went out to dinner on St. Patty's Day...the place was packed.

We haven't lived in fear, or have been necessarily careless either. But we're not hiding in our basement. My son (a senior in HS) goes to school 4 days a week.

At some point, we need to stop the judging. I've seen it all at work. It's like walking road rage. Which reminds me, posting on social media is only inviting criticisms. I mean, if you don't want some dude to give you the finger don't get on the highway.



I have no problem with mask mandates in stores for the time being. But at some point, the masks are coming off. I can't wait.

its not impossible that we were separated at birth....   Ive done the same  Ive oretty much just done as I always do  I go out I go to bars I go out to eat, I hit the beach  I wear a dface diaper when society frowns at me,,,,,  God willing I will live and all my family and those I love and friends will all be well.....  other than that who fk knows LOL   well we do know that UFO Rocks and UFO may be our way out of here  ;) ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2021, 06:44:40 PM

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:28:46 PM

great read   great talk and debate i think sadly there is no right or wrong,  I have not been vaccinated and do not plan on getting it unless im beaten into it by mules...

Hey EPIC, if you don't mind me asking...why not?

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:36:31 PM

Ive done the same  Ive oretty much just done as I always do  I go out I go to bars I go out to eat, I hit the beach  I wear a dface diaper when society frowns at me,,,,, 

Pre-Covid, my family went out to dinner basically 3 out of every 4 or 5 Saturday nights. It was important to us. In the past year, we've maybe been out to eat a half dozen times. We've played it safe, but we haven't been hermits.

I definitely see that picking up now that we're vaccinated.

I don't go to bars.. ;D I'm married. :lol

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:36:31 PM

   well we do know that UFO Rocks

Hell yes, there's always that!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 24, 2021, 07:35:27 PM

Harmony! Long time, no disagreements!  :laugh: :heart

As thoughtful as your post was, I cannot personally relate to much of it as 1) I am not on social media (definitely a Kobayashi Maru) and 2) I haven't been living in fear. But I know that does not apply to everyone. There was an article in a local paper about people who are comfortable in their bubbles and are anywhere from hesitant to fearful that restrictions are being lifted. I feel bad for them, not because they are wrong, or delusional, or scared. But because it is going to happen, whether they want it to or not. I guess they can continue to isolate as much as possible. Just because a restaurant, gym, or theater is open to full capacity it doesn't mean you have to go there. You can even skip Aunt Edna's bridge party once she starts hosting it again.

I said a few pages back in this thread that one of the great reckonings will be when all kids are back in school full time. My wife, the educator, who never swears, says it is going to be a shit-show, highlighting the disparity between the kids who handled distance learning and isolation well, and those who didn't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dave_Manchester on March 24, 2021, 07:40:06 PM

Very good to see you back, Harmony.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2021, 07:43:43 PM

Quote from: Dave_Manchester on March 24, 2021, 07:40:06 PM

Very good to see you back, Harmony.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 07:48:29 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2021, 06:44:40 PM

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:28:46 PM

great read   great talk and debate i think sadly there is no right or wrong,  I have not been vaccinated and do not plan on getting it unless im beaten into it by mules...

Hey EPIC, if you don't mind me asking...why not?

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:36:31 PM

Ive done the same  Ive oretty much just done as I always do  I go out I go to bars I go out to eat, I hit the beach  I wear a dface diaper when society frowns at me,,,,, 

Pre-Covid, my family went out to dinner basically 3 out of every 4 or 5 Saturday nights. It was important to us. In the past year, we've maybe been out to eat a half dozen times. We've played it safe, but we haven't been hermits.

I definitely see that picking up now that we're vaccinated.

I don't go to bars.. ;D I'm married. :lol

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 06:36:31 PM

   well we do know that UFO Rocks

Hell yes, there's always that!

My bro TAC.... ive never been vaccinated, I dont do seasonal flu shots etc, I believe in my body and how when left alone the body will be strong to fight,,  Im recently divorced and with another hot girl, life is good. a change fro sure, married was great too  no kids involved.  so I am about all the time, just never broke stride, my work had me working and doing even more during the crisis,   I think those who dont have to go out as much are smart,   we do play it a bit safe and at first like all we didnt go out as there was nothing to really go out to.

Pete Way shook my hand  I assume that was all the vaccinating a wildman needs  : )

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 07:54:13 PM

I want nothing more than to ditch my mask, goggles, and gloves when I go to Costco; for Mrs.jingle to go out to run some casual errands and just mull around stores and shops for shits and giggles; to go to my favourite restaurants; for my kids to get on campus in the fall for their programsn to have friends over and sit around the pool drinking beers and BBQ’g.

At the same time, I didn’t shelter and live under these restrictions for the last 12 months just to get premature with my euphoria for all those things, and risk catching it. Data may be trending down in some areas (not where I live), but cases/hospitalization/deaths are still (as an absolute number) higher than they were in the summer (speaking for the US).  Even higher in other countries.

Again, there’s still a few more months before I think the “all clear” bells should be ringing - more so up here than for you guys in the US. So forgive my lack of jubilation just yet. Yes, we’re in the red zone, but I refuse to be Leon Lett. I’ll get the 6 points, then celebrate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2021, 07:59:06 PM

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 07:48:29 PM

  Im recently divorced and with another hot girl,

As if there was any doubt. :lol

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 07:48:29 PM

My bro TAC.... ive never been vaccinated, I dont do seasonal flu shots etc, I believe in my body and how when left alone the body will be strong to fight,, 

OK, that's cool. I can respect anyone who after thought decides not to be vaccinated. It's a personal decision. As long as someone doesn't say the government is trying to track them with a vaccine...that's just nuts.


I didn't start getting the flu shot until I had kids. It was really about protecting them. I certainly wasn't afraid of getting the flu, but I was deathly worried about them getting it.

I'm diabetic, and my wife has an autoimmune disease, so getting the vaccine was really a no brainer for us.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 24, 2021, 08:04:52 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 07:54:13 PM

I want nothing more than to ditch my mask, goggles, and gloves when I go to Costco; for Mrs.jingle to go out to run some casual errands and just mull around stores and shops for shits and giggles; to go to my favourite restaurants; for my kids to get on campus in the fall for their programsn to have friends over and sit around the pool drinking beers and BBQ’g.

At the same time, I didn’t shelter and live under these restrictions for the last 12 months just to get premature with my euphoria for all those things, and risk catching it. Data may be trending down in some areas (not where I live), but cases/hospitalization/deaths are still (as an absolute number) higher than they were in the summer (speaking for the US).  Even higher in other countries.

Again, there’s still a few more months before I think the “all clear” bells should be ringing - more so up here than for you guys in the US. So forgive my lack of jubilation just yet. Yes, we’re in the red zone, but I refuse to be Leon Lett. I’ll get the 6 points, then celebrate.

GOGGLES?? Seriously?



Chad, you mention "risk catching it". Now I'm not calling you out or anything...well except for the goggles..but we're just a couple of dudes talking...
You seem really afraid of this, which I can respect. You also can work from home. What if you worked a job where that was not possible? Would you have given your notice? Would you have reported to work?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 08:25:18 PM

Quote from: TAC on March 24, 2021, 07:59:06 PM

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 07:48:29 PM

  Im recently divorced and with another hot girl,

As if there was any doubt. :lol

Quote from: EPICVIEW on March 24, 2021, 07:48:29 PM

My bro TAC.... ive never been vaccinated, I dont do seasonal flu shots etc, I believe in my body and how when left alone the body will be strong to fight,, 

OK, that's cool. I can respect anyone who after thought decides not to be vaccinated. It's a personal decision. As long as someone doesn't say the government is trying to track them with a vaccine...that's just nuts.


I didn't start getting the flu shot until I had kids. It was really about protecting them. I certainly wasn't afraid of getting the flu, but I was deathly worried about them getting it.

I'm diabetic, and my wife has an autoimmune disease, so getting the vaccine was really a no brainer for us.

Luv Ya bro,,,  Id do the same if I had kids, I can afford to take a slight risk,    Id get the vaccination if im forced to , I hope society doesnt force me to,

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on March 24, 2021, 08:42:02 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 04:18:33 PM

Quote from: faizoff on March 24, 2021, 01:48:59 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 24, 2021, 11:52:57 AM

Got my second shot this morning. Didn't get that tasty buzz I got from the first one.

What shots did you get? I didn't feel anything after the 1st Pfizer shot, just mild arm soreness that barely lasted a day. 2nd shot is still 18 days away.

Pfizer. Truth is, I think it's a crapshoot across the board as to how people react to the vaccines (any of them). Nothing at all, severe reaction, mild flu-like symptoms, or a cool buzz. In my case I think it created an adrenal reaction. I had the same mild buzz that I get after a significant panic situation.

For sure everyone's response is varied, I'm always curious to hear everyone's reactions. My bro-in-law had it really bad with both doses, I believe they were Moderna shots. He didn't need hospital treatment, he just got sick as a dog with fever, weakness, aches all over, couldn't move for a couple of days. Happened with each shot. There was speculation that he may have already had Covid at some time since he had tested right before getting the shot and was negative.

My wife had pretty much the same reaction as me, pretty much zilch.

Will have to wait and see the 2nd shot and how that goes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 08:54:27 PM

I’m not talking the airtight, strap around the head goggles. Just basically the same kind I’d use with a power tool - sunglasses but without the shades. You have the luxury of already wearing glasses!  It’s only been since these new variants came about, which spread more easily.  There are suggestions that the virus could be getting in more easily through the eyes. I know people who caught it while having NEVER been exposed to anyone without masking. So I’m of the mindset that I’d rather make the mistake of being overly cautious, than the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough. I’d hazard a guess that every one who has gotten seriously ill, or had a loved one die wish they’d taken that approach.

As for the workplace question... hard to say. I’ve never had that kind of career.  If I did, while still being the sole breadwinner, then I suspect I’d be taking just as many precautions as you are.

I don’t think I’m living in fear - I’m taking all reasonable precautions to minimize my risk.  I don’t lose sleep; I don’t have anxieties over going out; I don’t rush my shopping trips because I’m worried about my exposure;I don’t freak out if someone gets within 6 feet of me without a mask. I control what I can control.  Some might think that your level of precaution (washing clothes and showering immediately when you get home) would be living in fear.  I don’t ... I see it as your calculus in deciding what’s the best way to NOT catch this fucking thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 24, 2021, 10:36:52 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 24, 2021, 05:09:23 PM

Hey guys - Long time/no time!  Glad to read so many of you are getting the jab.  That is so great.  This vaccine's efficacy is so stunningly amazing and I believe we are definitely on the track to getting back to normal.  It's been a long time coming.

And that is what my post here today is to ask you about.  Because I've been noticing some very interesting reactions to the notion of "getting back to normal."  I've been noticing resistance and confusion about post-vaccine behaviors that are being dubbed "acceptable" and "not acceptable."  As most of you know, the CDC has said that 2 or more fully vaccinated people can get together and socialize without masks.  Schools are decreasing the 6 foot rule (The WHO has always been 1 meter but Americans are notoriously not great with the metric system) down to 3 feet for social distancing.  On the rare instance that a fully vaccinated person is exposed to someone with COVID, they don't have to quarantine.  I've recently read some research that seems to support all these things - Israel for example - doing a wonderful job of getting out the jabs - is showing the viral load in people 14 days post vax x2 goes down to (IIRC) like 15%.  There are other studies coming out as well - viral load in pre-op people in the Mayo Clinic system down to 20%.  So seemingly a damn fine benefit of being fully vaccinated is that you are FAR less likely to spread it around to others.  Studies from parts of the world with the variants are still showing this level of protection against severe disease and death.  Fantastic!

And yet by and large, people are being asked (at least in the US) not to change many other behaviors.  Post something on social media about not wearing a mask while walking outside after full vaccination and prepare to be blasted by people calling you selfish.

Talk about fully vaccinated parents traveling with their unvaccinated kids and you are committing child abuse.

Talk about finally getting together socializing with a group of fully vaccinated adults in say a restaurant (support local businesses!) and you are horrible for putting your waitress at risk because she's not vaccinated yet.

There seems to be no winning.  And people seem very rigid about applying their own risk aversion recipe to yours, while most don't have any clue as to how this virus is actually impacted post vaccine.  I'm starting to think there is a segment of the population that really don't want to give up on the fear they've been living under for more than a year.  I'm starting to think that this pandemic has impacted people mentally and emotionally more than they are willing to admit (and I can relate to an extent).

I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind here.  I'm wearing my mask inside when in public places.  I'm not traveling much (yet).  But it would sure be nice to stop getting dirty looks from people who do not know my vaccine status when I'm taking a walk OUTSIDE without a mask on.

We are never going to get to Covid zero.  Once I realized that and considered that all of us take certain risks every day and think nothing about it, I started to change my thinking about where my comfort level is and how I'm applying it to others.  And I stopped judging.  We already know that shaming people is uneffective.  So why is it continuing?

The mental health fall out from this past year is going to wind up being quite a toll.  And sure, it may not kill half a million people so it's not comparable to a runaway pandemic, but it IS important to consider.  The amount of fear that people have been living under has been significant.  It's not going to go away any time soon.  In fact, it may just get a whole lot worse as we begin to open up and "go back to normal."

I welcome your thoughts.   :heart

It's great to hear your perspective and thoughts about this all. Really informative, and I sure appreciate it.

Mental Issues, are one of the big problems I am now highly concerned for, because the way I see it now...Can people, MENTALLY, handle another lockdown? My personal opinion is no, and this is based on what I am seeing with how people are acting now they got vaccinated. And this is a reaction to the cause of being locked in for so long. It's like watching an Animal in a Zoo being released in the wild, after being saved from extinction or for healthcare reasons, especially if one was raised in the Zoos. Basically the premise to the movie Madagascar and the penguins, and when they get to Antarctica "Well, this sucks."

You have people who enjoyed and feel safer in the comforts of the zoo, and don't want to go back into the wild. And others, whom can't wait to be released and once released make a run for it into the wilderness. Others also take their time to adjust before making the trek deeper into the wild.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2021, 12:25:08 AM

I don't agree with Chad on much of anything related to this threat.  But I'm not sure why the pushback on the goggles idea.  As he pointed out, the eyes are a known portal for catching all kinds of nasty things.  Why NOT protect them if there is an easy way to do so?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 25, 2021, 05:56:15 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2021, 12:25:08 AM

I don't agree with Chad on much of anything related to this threat.  But I'm not sure why the pushback on the goggles idea.  As he pointed out, the eyes are a known portal for catching all kinds of nasty things.  Why NOT protect them if there is an easy way to do so?

I'm half joshing, but I haven't seen anyone in goggles since the early days of this. It kind of jumped off the page to me when I read his post.

And now that I think of it, I haven't heard much about the eyes being a portal for Covid in a long time. I assumed nothing has changed though.

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 08:54:27 PM

I’m not talking the airtight, strap around the head goggles. Just basically the same kind I’d use with a power tool - sunglasses but without the shades. You have the luxury of already wearing glasses!  It’s only been since these new variants came about, which spread more easily.  There are suggestions that the virus could be getting in more easily through the eyes. I know people who caught it while having NEVER been exposed to anyone without masking. So I’m of the mindset that I’d rather make the mistake of being overly cautious, than the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough. I’d hazard a guess that every one who has gotten seriously ill, or had a loved one die wish they’d taken that approach.

As for the workplace question... hard to say. I’ve never had that kind of career.  If I did, while still being the sole breadwinner, then I suspect I’d be taking just as many precautions as you are.

I don’t think I’m living in fear - I’m taking all reasonable precautions to minimize my risk.  I don’t lose sleep; I don’t have anxieties over going out; I don’t rush my shopping trips because I’m worried about my exposure;I don’t freak out if someone gets within 6 feet of me without a mask. I control what I can control.  Some might think that your level of precaution (washing clothes and showering immediately when you get home) would be living in fear.  I don’t ... I see it as your calculus in deciding what’s the best way to NOT catch this fucking thing.

Sure. It's all degrees. Playing it safe is never wrong.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 06:33:46 AM

One of my rules of life is 'better safe than sorry'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 25, 2021, 06:40:38 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 06:33:46 AM

One of my rules of life is 'better safe than sorry'.

Yeah, I think we are pretty cautious too, but one may view how I act as reckless, and another may view it as too cautious. You make the best decisions you can.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2021, 09:02:34 AM

I don't think I've seen anyone in goggles.  Face shields a few times, like the security guard at work wears one and occasionally I'll see one at the supermarket. I remember reading that you can get covid through the eyes, but I haven't seen anyone really talking about that recently.  I'm guessing it's not terribly likely, but possible (like if you are scratching your eyes or someone is speaking to you closely without a mask). 

Anyway, no issues if people want to take extra precautions.  It is your life so do as you feel necessary.

Here's some more optimism:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-covid-cases-are-climbing-again-but-new-data-from-israel-suggests-vaccination-will-soon-defeat-the-variants-132844520.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-covid-cases-are-climbing-again-but-new-data-from-israel-suggests-vaccination-will-soon-defeat-the-variants-132844520.html)

Quote

In short, if the last phase of the U.S. pandemic is a race between the variants and the vaccines, the vaccines appear to have the upper hand — just like they did in Israel.

Essentially Israel went through the same thing with the UK variant giving an increase in cases as the vaccines started rolling out but over time the vaccines won the race.  The US is prime to also win the race as of now. 

JSS on twitter today said he's going to be announcing a US tour in 2021 soon.  Between the Buried and Me announced a (rescheduled) US tour starting this summer.  311 and also Sublime with Rome have both hinted of having US tours booked and just waiting to announce.  Jinjer announced a US tour this fall.  My point being, I don't think the music business would be doing this if they didn't expect the US to get back to some normalcy this summer.  On the other end, Disturbed cancelled thier summer tour.  I think the difference is the big concerts may be a bit longer to get started again but the smaller ones might be back sooner.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 25, 2021, 09:11:55 AM

Quote from: Harmony on March 24, 2021, 05:09:23 PM

Hey guys - Long time/no time!  Glad to read so many of you are getting the jab.  That is so great.  This vaccine's efficacy is so stunningly amazing and I believe we are definitely on the track to getting back to normal.  It's been a long time coming.

And that is what my post here today is to ask you about.  Because I've been noticing some very interesting reactions to the notion of "getting back to normal."  I've been noticing resistance and confusion about post-vaccine behaviors that are being dubbed "acceptable" and "not acceptable."  As most of you know, the CDC has said that 2 or more fully vaccinated people can get together and socialize without masks.  Schools are decreasing the 6 foot rule (The WHO has always been 1 meter but Americans are notoriously not great with the metric system) down to 3 feet for social distancing.  On the rare instance that a fully vaccinated person is exposed to someone with COVID, they don't have to quarantine.  I've recently read some research that seems to support all these things - Israel for example - doing a wonderful job of getting out the jabs - is showing the viral load in people 14 days post vax x2 goes down to (IIRC) like 15%.  There are other studies coming out as well - viral load in pre-op people in the Mayo Clinic system down to 20%.  So seemingly a damn fine benefit of being fully vaccinated is that you are FAR less likely to spread it around to others.  Studies from parts of the world with the variants are still showing this level of protection against severe disease and death.  Fantastic!

And yet by and large, people are being asked (at least in the US) not to change many other behaviors.  Post something on social media about not wearing a mask while walking outside after full vaccination and prepare to be blasted by people calling you selfish.

Talk about fully vaccinated parents traveling with their unvaccinated kids and you are committing child abuse.

Talk about finally getting together socializing with a group of fully vaccinated adults in say a restaurant (support local businesses!) and you are horrible for putting your waitress at risk because she's not vaccinated yet.

There seems to be no winning.  And people seem very rigid about applying their own risk aversion recipe to yours, while most don't have any clue as to how this virus is actually impacted post vaccine.  I'm starting to think there is a segment of the population that really don't want to give up on the fear they've been living under for more than a year.  I'm starting to think that this pandemic has impacted people mentally and emotionally more than they are willing to admit (and I can relate to an extent).

I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind here.  I'm wearing my mask inside when in public places.  I'm not traveling much (yet).  But it would sure be nice to stop getting dirty looks from people who do not know my vaccine status when I'm taking a walk OUTSIDE without a mask on.

We are never going to get to Covid zero.  Once I realized that and considered that all of us take certain risks every day and think nothing about it, I started to change my thinking about where my comfort level is and how I'm applying it to others.  And I stopped judging.  We already know that shaming people is uneffective.  So why is it continuing?

The mental health fall out from this past year is going to wind up being quite a toll.  And sure, it may not kill half a million people so it's not comparable to a runaway pandemic, but it IS important to consider.  The amount of fear that people have been living under has been significant.  It's not going to go away any time soon.  In fact, it may just get a whole lot worse as we begin to open up and "go back to normal."

I welcome your thoughts.   :heart

Good to see you.  Hope you are well.   

If it matters to you, I am in almost full agreement.  Especially in the bolded (not referring even obliquely to anyone here).

With one exception:  I think that it MAY kill half a million people.  I've been on a kick for the last couple years now where I am very convinced - pending research, which I advocate for vociferously - that we've been nickel and diming our health for the past decade (at a minimum).  What I mean by that is, we've been doing the typical "human" thing of concentrating on the one cockroach we can see, and ignoring the 1,000 cockroaches that are hidden behind the cabinet, under the floor, and in the walls.   We have heated, sometimes violent discussions on the killing of 200 people per year, because of their skin (referencing the deaths of African Americans at the hands of police), and ignore - relatively - the almost 100,000 deaths per year from alcohol (https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-deaths.html) (that's 250 PER DAY).  The roughly 45,000 deaths per year from suicide (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm) (and that doesn't even mention the almost 300,000 ER visits per year from self-harm).   Add to that all the people that don't actually die directly, but aren't productive, aren't healthy, or overeat or over medicate as a result of their untreated mental/emotional situations (over 42% of Americans are obese (https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html).   42%!!! That's over 135 MILLION people.)

I'm not putting words in your mouth that you agree with me here, so please don't take it that way, but that you even mentioned the emotional and mental toll on an already fragile nation is, I think, insightful.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 25, 2021, 09:21:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 06:33:46 AM

One of my rules of life is 'better safe than sorry'.

So this is why you make me wear 2 condoms!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 25, 2021, 09:25:09 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 25, 2021, 09:21:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 06:33:46 AM

One of my rules of life is 'better safe than sorry'.

So this is why you make me wear 2 condoms!

He told me you needed the second one to keep them from falling off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 25, 2021, 09:28:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 24, 2021, 08:54:27 PM

I don’t think I’m living in fear - I’m taking all reasonable precautions to minimize my risk.  I don’t lose sleep; I don’t have anxieties over going out; I don’t rush my shopping trips because I’m worried about my exposure;I don’t freak out if someone gets within 6 feet of me without a mask. I control what I can control.  Some might think that your level of precaution (washing clothes and showering immediately when you get home) would be living in fear.  I don’t ... I see it as your calculus in deciding what’s the best way to NOT catch this fucking thing.

Of course, though, the rubber meets the road when we start talking about what OTHERS should do.  I would never make fun of you for wearing goggles (I say that without seeing you.  If there was a photo, I might, no guarantees!).   I would never make fun of TAC's wife for not kissing him without a shower (I've never smelled the man).   But here's the thing:  I don't make make fun of the Spring Breakers, or that person that seemingly cannot figure out how to wear a mask and has it around their mouth with their nose out.  Or no mask.  It's not my place.   I might quietly assess them as idiots, or uninformed, or taking an untoward risk, but so are those morons that climb Russian radio towers, or ski out of a helicopter.  You do you.

The problem isn't what each of us do to fight our own COVID wars, the problem is what we expect/demand from others.   And no, the "well, it affects me and my family!" doesn't fly, doesn't change the equation, because hundreds of things affect me and my family, and I have only one recourse:  accept it and move on as best I can.  That's what living in a society means.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 25, 2021, 09:36:17 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 25, 2021, 09:25:09 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 25, 2021, 09:21:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 06:33:46 AM

One of my rules of life is 'better safe than sorry'.

So this is why you make me wear 2 condoms!

He told me you needed the second one to keep them from falling off.

I am Irish. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 25, 2021, 09:57:31 AM

For what it's worth, I got my second shot at 0915 yesterday morning. Felt fine all night. Arm wasn't even sore. Today I am feeling a little achy. Nothing major, and I can't even be certain it's not just a function of the rain last night, but I can definitely tell that something's going on. I've definitely got something going on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 25, 2021, 10:13:34 AM

Quote from: El Barto on March 25, 2021, 09:57:31 AM

For what it's worth, I got my second shot at 0915 yesterday morning. Felt fine all night. Arm wasn't even sore. Today I am feeling a little achy. Nothing major, and I can't even be certain it's not just a function of the rain last night, but I can definitely tell that something's going on. I've definitely got something going on.

That seems to be the pattern. Fine after the second shot and then around 4:00am it all started. I started feeling better around 2:00pm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 25, 2021, 10:20:56 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 25, 2021, 09:21:18 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 06:33:46 AM

One of my rules of life is 'better safe than sorry'.

So this is why you make me wear 2 condoms!

Well it certainly explains the goggles.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 25, 2021, 12:21:06 PM

Can't say I know a single person nor have I heard of a single person "wanting to hold on to the fear they've been living with for the last year" that sounds like it was lifted off the script for one of Sean Hannity's or Tucker Carlson's fact-free rants.


I'm scared to death of this shit because I've got underlying health issues that could lead to severe illness for me if I get infected.  I still go to the gym 6 days a week and out to a sit-down breakfast at an indoor restaurant every Sunday morning with my 75-year-old brother in law.  I also go to work each day, at an office, where we all have to wear masks unless we're in our offices. 


Cases are trending downward in most places but we're in a race against some pretty gnarly mutations that are more readily spread from person to person and there is some anecdotal evidence emerging that the mutations are causing worse illness in many cases, so I'd say it's very much TBD on where this all goes in the immediate future, but we do have two things going for us and that is a very robust vaccination program that's doing quite well and we're heading into the warmer part of the year here in the northern hemisphere so just by virtue of those two circumstances, even if there is 3rd wave, I think it has the potential to be blunted substantially by the rapid spread of vaccinated people and less indoor activity as the weather warms up.


Someone mentioned they're getting dirty looks from people when they're outside with no mask on?  That's fucking crazy.  I haven't seen any of that around here.  And I do not wear a mask if I'm outside.  The minute I exit any building the mask comes off.  I fucking hate wearing it.  But I also kind of like not being dead, so when I'm inside a building other than my house or my office I wear the mask. I follow the rules, if not to protect myself but to protect others. 


The people who are gathering in huge crowds like we saw down in Miami beach, indoors or outdoors you're taking a big risk, but not only that, you could very well be putting other people at risk too.  But I remember what it was like to be a 25-year-old know-it-all and completely invincible.  Had this happened when I was 25 I would absolutely have been down with a mask-free spring break party indoors or outdoors because there would be no way I would ever catch this and get sick or die.  That kind of shit happens to OTHER people. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 25, 2021, 12:57:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 25, 2021, 12:21:06 PM

...out to a sit-down breakfast at an indoor restaurant every Sunday morning with my 75-year-old brother in law.

Not to get off topic, but one of my top five pleasures in the world is a good Sunday breakfast.  After my divorce I used to do that every Sunday; get the paper, and go sit for an hour or so and read it, over some eggs, toast and corned beef hash.  Coffee, of course. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 25, 2021, 01:15:57 PM

This coming weekend I get to spend a full, masks off weekend with my fully vaxxed parents. I owe my mom a years worth of hugs, and she's getting them all.  :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 25, 2021, 01:17:01 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 25, 2021, 12:57:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 25, 2021, 12:21:06 PM

...out to a sit-down breakfast at an indoor restaurant every Sunday morning with my 75-year-old brother in law.

Not to get off topic, but one of my top five pleasures in the world is a good Sunday breakfast.  After my divorce I used to do that every Sunday; get the paper, and go sit for an hour or so and read it, over some eggs, toast and corned beef hash.  Coffee, of course.

One of the things I'm most looking forward to when this all blows over is the Mohegan Sun breakfast buffet after a night of debauchery. There's that and a hole in the wall place called Uncle Bob's Ham and Eggers that's a primo breakfast joint. I haven't been there in over a year now :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 25, 2021, 01:22:25 PM

Quote from: lonestar on March 25, 2021, 01:15:57 PM

This coming weekend I get to spend a full, masks off weekend with my fully vaxxed parents. I owe my mom a years worth of hugs, and she's getting them all.  :heart

These aren't tears. It's dusty in here.  Shut up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 25, 2021, 01:40:30 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome and good wishes everyone.  I wish I could respond to each and every post because every single one offered something worth a response and I have read and thought about all of your points.  I have nothing to quibble with.  But I may do some clarifying.

Importantly, I'm not directing my comments to anyone here.  Part of my reason for delving back here is that I always thought of you all here as a hearty bunch.  Many of you have helped me with my own anxieties during the pandemic - I have reread much of the early days of this thread which was FUN and WEIRD all at the same time (I recommend it if you have the time.) So please don't take anything that I posted as directed toward a post or board member here.  It wasn't.  I came looking for straight talk and I think I got that.  So thanks.

And perhaps not many of you have been seeing what I'm describing.  This actually gives me hope.  And point taken about not engaging on social media where all bets are off.  I think EB is correct that the polarization of this country (I can't speak to other countries) is showing up in these topics as well.  Honestly, I'm trying to come to terms with some of my own behavior earlier on in the pandemic.  As much as I hated wearing the mask on a personal level, I was totally judging people who didn't.  As much as I hated isolating from my family, I was totally judging those who made different decisions.  I still grapple with the notion that some people cannot put the "greater good" aspect of the equation into their noggins.  I watched my husband and his colleagues work their tails off for the past year and every single person who thumbed their noses at public health recommendations felt like a slap in the face.  I felt healthcare workers - much like front line workers - were disrespected and discounted and ultimately ignored.  That hurt like hell.  It remains a work in progress but I took that very personally....the crap people said about the virus being a hoax and how doctors were inflating Covid death numbers for political reasons just did not jibe with my reality.

So now here I am, feeling hopeful with the full mantle of protection over my family, wanting to help others cross over to the hopeful part and being shot down for stating facts about life post vaccine.  Some people just don't seem to want to hear that it's ok to relax after the vax.  "You can still spread the virus!"  "You can't be 100% sure!"  Well, theoretically that is true.  But the goal isn't Covid zero (I mean, yeah that'd be great and all but reality comes into play).  The goal is not to die or wind up in the hospital or to become a long-hauler.  And if we are looking at the risks vs. benefits, where do the benefits of hugging your parents come in?  Where do the benefits of blowing off steam with friends come in?  Where do the benefits of climbing out of the constant anxiety and stress come in?  Because I'm personally seeing the benefits of those things FAR outweighing the extremely low likelihood of me spreading Covid to others.  And TBH, that was (outside of my kids getting sick in the early days) always my biggest fear....getting someone else sick because of being in contact with me.

A couple of weeks ago, I went in for my annual physical.  When my doctor came in along with the PA, all three of us in that room were 14 days past vax #2.  My doctor looks at me and asks if I am comfortable doing the exam without masks on (probably not kosher from the clinic policy standpoint, I might add).  And of course I was.  It was like a gift.  The PA shared a story with me about going for a hike out in a valley where she could see for miles in all directions and there was literally nobody else out there except a couple of other hikers coming up to pass her on the trail.  They were wearing masks and she - being fully vaccinated - was not.  As they passed her one of them said sarcastically, "Hey, thanks for wearing a mask!"  I mean, this is what I'm talking about.  This need to control what others are doing.  This need to hang onto the fear and constantly push that fear on to others you don't know.

I'll leave you with this.  Those 20 somethings in Florida flooding the beaches for spring break?  Potentially concerning?  Sure.  But what would be much more concerning IMHO would be to drive them inside into hotel rooms and houses to congregate and celebrate.  I haven't done the math - maybe someone here will - but undoubtedly the risk of death for those kids driving to and from those beaches is higher than partying with their pals outside without a mask.  Personally I wouldn't make that choice.  But I can certainly understand it.  And I can stop being judgmental about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 25, 2021, 01:53:04 PM

It's strange. Some of the examples I'm reading (the PA out hiking) seem completely alien to me. While I've no doubt it happens, it's just not really something that would happen in Texas. It would certainly be the exception and not the rule. Not because we're all non-mask wearing assholes, but because Texans are surprisingly non-confrontational with people over their life decisions. It's generations of civility, I think. We're all far more likely to keep our distance and grumble about it afterward. At most maybe roll our eyes about it. People slap Trump/W/Biden/Hillary stickers on their cars, and they don't get called out for it. That would be rude. Masks kind of get the same deference.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 25, 2021, 01:59:03 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 25, 2021, 01:40:30 PM

I'll leave you with this.  Those 20 somethings in Florida flooding the beaches for spring break?  Potentially concerning?  Sure.  But what would be much more concerning IMHO would be to drive them inside into hotel rooms and houses to congregate and celebrate.  I haven't done the math - maybe someone here will - but undoubtedly the risk of death for those kids driving to and from those beaches is higher than partying with their pals outside without a mask.  Personally I wouldn't make that choice.  But I can certainly understand it.  And I can stop being judgmental about it.

Who is suggesting that?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2021, 02:00:52 PM

I've done trails in NJ, PA, and Maine in the fall at various parks.  Most weren't wearing masks (including myself).  Like, I wore at near the visitor centers where people would be congregating, but on a trail while walking?  I don't see the point.  The virus just hasn't shown to be an issue outdoors on the move.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on March 25, 2021, 02:33:08 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 25, 2021, 01:59:03 PM

Quote from: Harmony on March 25, 2021, 01:40:30 PM

I'll leave you with this.  Those 20 somethings in Florida flooding the beaches for spring break?  Potentially concerning?  Sure.  But what would be much more concerning IMHO would be to drive them inside into hotel rooms and houses to congregate and celebrate.  I haven't done the math - maybe someone here will - but undoubtedly the risk of death for those kids driving to and from those beaches is higher than partying with their pals outside without a mask.  Personally I wouldn't make that choice.  But I can certainly understand it.  And I can stop being judgmental about it.

Who is suggesting that?

People who think/say the local and/or state government should close the beaches?  Hasn't a curfew already been enacted during certain times? 

I don't live in Florida, so I have no first hand knowledge.  I've just seen people suggesting that "somebody should do something" on social media.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 25, 2021, 02:39:47 PM

I think it’s important to remember that the initial call to lock down was to not overwhelm the hospitals.....not to assure that no one caught Covid. A year into it and the treatments for Covid of those who are hospitalized have come leaps and bounds.....’healthy’ people who are infected are surviving the virus on their own naturally and our population is getting vaccinated and between the immunities from people having it knowingly and unknowingly I think there’s good reason to be optimistic

I think at this point we see the pattern and know that there is going to be a subset of people who aren’t going to abide by any of the recommendations.....there are people like me and my family who will continue to wear masks, my wife and I vaccinated and we social distance but we are living our lives now.....and there are those who will be super safe and stay locked in.

To for one group to criticize the other at this point is literally a waste of energy and time. Positions have been made known and one side isn’t going to turn the other from their ‘belief’ or the way their approaching the virus now.

For me....we’re past the point of overwhelming the hospitals due to vaccinations and natural antibodies/ herd immunity and the advancement in treatments.....coupled with the vulnerable who unfortunately have died already. So, I don’t see the need for lockdowns. Keep a mask mandate, keep hammering hygiene practices and let that be that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 02:48:51 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 25, 2021, 12:21:06 PM

Had this happened when I was 25 I would absolutely have been down with a mask-free spring break party indoors or outdoors because there would be no way I would ever catch this and get sick or die.  That kind of shit happens to OTHER people.

Except when it doesn't.  It's shit like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vl3TAueyhk) that is the reason I'm still pumping the brakes hard on any ideas that we're free and clear - at least in Canada.

"Infection rates are now highest from those aged 20-39". -- Canada's Chief Public Health Officer
"We're seeing people much sicker in their 30s and 40s than we saw in the last wave" -- Emergency Dr.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 25, 2021, 02:53:26 PM

Quote from: Chino on March 25, 2021, 01:17:01 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 25, 2021, 12:57:10 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 25, 2021, 12:21:06 PM

...out to a sit-down breakfast at an indoor restaurant every Sunday morning with my 75-year-old brother in law.

Not to get off topic, but one of my top five pleasures in the world is a good Sunday breakfast.  After my divorce I used to do that every Sunday; get the paper, and go sit for an hour or so and read it, over some eggs, toast and corned beef hash.  Coffee, of course.

One of the things I'm most looking forward to when this all blows over is the Mohegan Sun breakfast buffet after a night of debauchery. There's that and a hole in the wall place called Uncle Bob's Ham and Eggers that's a primo breakfast joint. I haven't been there in over a year now :(

This reminds me, we need to get that DTF casino trip idea going again when things get settled down.  I miss the morning buffet at Harrah's after a night in AC.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 02:57:36 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 25, 2021, 02:39:47 PM

For me....we’re past the point of overwhelming the hospitals due to vaccinations and natural antibodies/ herd immunity and the advancement in treatments.....coupled with the vulnerable who unfortunately have died already. So, I don’t see the need for lockdowns. Keep a mask mandate, keep hammering hygiene practices and let that be that.

Not everywhere.  :-\  ICU's are still shuffling people around here in Ontario.  600 people this year alone had to be moved to other hospital ICUs, sometimes over 100mi away.  Our cases, infections rates, and deaths are climbing again.  And our Vax game is most certainly NOT on point.  Surgery backlog is going to take years (yes, plural) to clear out.

As I said a few pages ago, for as bad as you guys f'd up the outbreak, your vax game has been pretty solid.  Having the manufacturers with facilities in country so you could keep them all (no snark - we'd do the same if we could) sure helps.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Kotowboy on March 25, 2021, 03:10:42 PM

I'm lucky that nobody in my family or my friends ( no, neither of them  :yeahright ... ) have gotten sick or died from it.

As I said before and I will re-iterate - easily the worst thing about the last 12 months is

• Every YouTube video you watch having to mention " Obviously we're closed or indoors CAUSE OF THE CORONAVIRUS COVID 19 PANDEMIC VIRUS "

• Every shop window having a sign saying " CLOSED DUE TO CORONAVIRUS COVID 19 PANDEMIC VIRUS "

It's like  >:( FOR FUCKS SAKE WE KNOW - IT WOULD BE GREAT NOT TO BE REMINDED OF IT EVERY WHERE WE FUCKING LOOK.



Thanks.  :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2021, 04:47:15 AM

Yeah... easily the worst thing.   ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on March 26, 2021, 06:01:07 AM

Quote from: Kotowboy on March 25, 2021, 03:10:42 PM

I'm lucky that nobody in my family or my friends ( no, neither of them  :yeahright ... ) have gotten sick or died from it.

As I said before and I will re-iterate - easily the worst thing about the last 12 months is

• Every YouTube video you watch having to mention " Obviously we're closed or indoors CAUSE OF THE CORONAVIRUS COVID 19 PANDEMIC VIRUS "

• Every shop window having a sign saying " CLOSED DUE TO CORONAVIRUS COVID 19 PANDEMIC VIRUS "

It's like  >:( FOR FUCKS SAKE WE KNOW - IT WOULD BE GREAT NOT TO BE REMINDED OF IT EVERY WHERE WE FUCKING LOOK.



Thanks.  :tup :tup

You get angry at so much stuff that's not worth your time, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2021, 08:06:52 AM

Rutgers University announced that students can only return to campus in the fall if they've been vaccinated.  So it begins, which I pretty much expected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2021, 08:15:14 AM

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-variants-death-analysis-ontario-1.5964296

Quote

Variants of the virus behind COVID-19 double the risk of someone being admitted to intensive care — and increase the risk of death by roughly 60 per cent — according to a new analysis of recent Ontario data from the province's science advisory table, multiple sources tell CBC News.

The analysis is expected to show that variants substantially increase the risk of serious illness when compared to the initial strain of SARS-CoV-2, including:

- 60 per cent increased risk of hospitalization.
- 100 per cent increased risk of being admitted to an ICU.
- 60 per cent increased risk of death.

The data didn't differentiate between variants, though most instances in Ontario right now are thought to be the B117 variant first identified in southeast England.

"Clearly, these variants are ... more transmissible — so you're more likely to become infected if you're exposed to the virus — and also, you're more likely to be admitted to hospital and to potentially die from the infection," said critical care physician Dr. Kali Barrett, a member of the COVID-19 Modelling Collaborative, a separate group that was not involved in the science table's upcoming briefing note.  Those health impacts are regardless of your age or pre-existing medical issues, she said of the international research.

Several sources said the analysis accounts for the fact that the age distribution of cases has shifted over time, and now skews younger, thanks in part to ongoing vaccinations of older populations.

Ontario marks highest daily COVID-19 case count in 2 months as variants of concern take over new infections (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-march-25-2021-update-1.5963419)

It not only aligns with the growing body of international research suggesting variants such as B117 can have dire health impacts, but also the growing concern among Ontario clinicians that patients with COVID-19 are presenting both younger and more seriously ill. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-third-wave-younger-patients-1.5955838)

With variants now making up more than half of all recent COVID-19 cases in Ontario, experts stress it's a risky numbers game: more people getting infected with a more dangerous variant could cause more serious illnesses and deaths, even among a younger, healthier cohort.

"In no way, shape or form should people be minimizing this pandemic. It still has legs, unfortunately," Morris said.  "And where you may have had some estimate of risk to yourself six months ago, even three months ago — that estimated risk has now increased a bit."

That last quote is what keeps me still on edge with concern.  The race of the variants vs the vaccines is being won by the variants up here.  Glad to hear that is not the case in the US.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on March 26, 2021, 08:48:43 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2021, 08:06:52 AM

Rutgers University announced that students can only return to campus in the fall if they've been vaccinated.  So it begins, which I pretty much expected.

I have absolutely no problems with this. If they lose revenue because of this policy then so be it.

The NFL draft will have fans but they will have a special section for the vaccinated which is good common sense. I think that's the plan for the Dallas Mavericks too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 26, 2021, 09:33:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 02:57:36 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 25, 2021, 02:39:47 PM

For me....we’re past the point of overwhelming the hospitals due to vaccinations and natural antibodies/ herd immunity and the advancement in treatments.....coupled with the vulnerable who unfortunately have died already. So, I don’t see the need for lockdowns. Keep a mask mandate, keep hammering hygiene practices and let that be that.

Not everywhere.  :-\  ICU's are still shuffling people around here in Ontario.  600 people this year alone had to be moved to other hospital ICUs, sometimes over 100mi away.  Our cases, infections rates, and deaths are climbing again.  And our Vax game is most certainly NOT on point.  Surgery backlog is going to take years (yes, plural) to clear out.

As I said a few pages ago, for as bad as you guys f'd up the outbreak, your vax game has been pretty solid.  Having the manufacturers with facilities in country so you could keep them all (no snark - we'd do the same if we could) sure helps.

What do you mean by that?  It's hard to understand.  The way it's written seems to imply that not only was it not perfect, but maybe actively bad.   We're not even in the top 10 of deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) (we're behind the UK, Italy and Belgium), for example.

For every example of a country that has, perhaps, based on numbers, done it "right", there's another who did the same things, or who had the same circumstances (i.e., it was an island; it was in a warmer clime) that had numbers that weren't anywhere near as good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2021, 09:54:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 26, 2021, 09:33:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 02:57:36 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 25, 2021, 02:39:47 PM

For me....we’re past the point of overwhelming the hospitals due to vaccinations and natural antibodies/ herd immunity and the advancement in treatments.....coupled with the vulnerable who unfortunately have died already. So, I don’t see the need for lockdowns. Keep a mask mandate, keep hammering hygiene practices and let that be that.

Not everywhere.  :-\  ICU's are still shuffling people around here in Ontario.  600 people this year alone had to be moved to other hospital ICUs, sometimes over 100mi away.  Our cases, infections rates, and deaths are climbing again.  And our Vax game is most certainly NOT on point.  Surgery backlog is going to take years (yes, plural) to clear out.

As I said a few pages ago, for as bad as you guys f'd up the outbreak, your vax game has been pretty solid.  Having the manufacturers with facilities in country so you could keep them all (no snark - we'd do the same if we could) sure helps.

What do you mean by that?  It's hard to understand.  The way it's written seems to imply that not only was it not perfect, but maybe actively bad.   We're not even in the top 10 of deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) (we're behind the UK, Italy and Belgium), for example.

For every example of a country that has, perhaps, based on numbers, done it "right", there's another who did the same things, or who had the same circumstances (i.e., it was an island; it was in a warmer clime) that had numbers that weren't anywhere near as good.

First, bringing other countries into the mix ... Whataboutism.  I never said you (United States) were the worst.  How other countries handled it is deflecting and irrelevant.  You get arrested for drunk driving, your argument isn't "but I'm not as drunk as the other four guys in the car!"  Ok, so you were the cream of the crap. You (the United States) need an 'atta boy', I'll give it to you.  :tup

Second, I don't particularly feel a burning desire to debate or re-litigate what was/was not done by the US (gov't or citizens).  If you think the US did a bang up job in its reaction to the outbreak, have a it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 26, 2021, 12:31:05 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 26, 2021, 09:54:20 AM

Quote from: Stadler on March 26, 2021, 09:33:55 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 25, 2021, 02:57:36 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 25, 2021, 02:39:47 PM

For me....we’re past the point of overwhelming the hospitals due to vaccinations and natural antibodies/ herd immunity and the advancement in treatments.....coupled with the vulnerable who unfortunately have died already. So, I don’t see the need for lockdowns. Keep a mask mandate, keep hammering hygiene practices and let that be that.

Not everywhere.  :-\  ICU's are still shuffling people around here in Ontario.  600 people this year alone had to be moved to other hospital ICUs, sometimes over 100mi away.  Our cases, infections rates, and deaths are climbing again.  And our Vax game is most certainly NOT on point.  Surgery backlog is going to take years (yes, plural) to clear out.

As I said a few pages ago, for as bad as you guys f'd up the outbreak, your vax game has been pretty solid.  Having the manufacturers with facilities in country so you could keep them all (no snark - we'd do the same if we could) sure helps.

What do you mean by that?  It's hard to understand.  The way it's written seems to imply that not only was it not perfect, but maybe actively bad.   We're not even in the top 10 of deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) (we're behind the UK, Italy and Belgium), for example.

For every example of a country that has, perhaps, based on numbers, done it "right", there's another who did the same things, or who had the same circumstances (i.e., it was an island; it was in a warmer clime) that had numbers that weren't anywhere near as good.

First, bringing other countries into the mix ... Whataboutism.  I never said you (United States) were the worst.  How other countries handled it is deflecting and irrelevant.  You get arrested for drunk driving, your argument isn't "but I'm not as drunk as the other four guys in the car!"  Ok, so you were the cream of the crap. You (the United States) need an 'atta boy', I'll give it to you.  :tup

Second, I don't particularly feel a burning desire to debate or re-litigate what was/was not done by the US (gov't or citizens).  If you think the US did a bang up job in its reaction to the outbreak, have a it.

So how do we compare?  If you're going to say it, you ought to have some basis for it, or is it just "whatever we feel"?  Or is simply everything that disagrees going to be rejected with an ad hominem response?

Because I "feel" we handled it as good as can be expected for a country of 330 million divisive people spread over 3.8 million square miles of land and the responsibility for an economy that touches virtually every other country on the planet.

 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2021, 01:42:54 PM

Personally, without any data just my opinion, I think the US did OK.  Some of our mistakes (nursing homes) are due to not knowing the virus, some of our problems stem from our own health of the nation (very obese), and some were just poor decisions by our leadership (Trump not acknowledging the effects of a mask until too late).  We did do everything in our power to get vaccines.  We did do everything in our power to get ventilators and hospital space.  Politicizing things didn't help, having the mass resources of the US did help.  It's not such an easy conclusion.  Years from now there will be books on all the mistakes and hopefully some light on great decisions made as well.  Time will tell.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 26, 2021, 01:54:36 PM

When a third of Americans refuse to get vaccinated, and a similar number refuse to wear a mask, the most simple and basic precaution, on the basis of "you can't tell me what to do!", I have to conclude that we fucked this whole thing up. There were no doubt tough decisions to be made, and I won't cast blame over who opened this or locked down that, but we failed so hard at the simple stuff that I give us a pretty low grade.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 26, 2021, 02:09:27 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 26, 2021, 12:31:05 PM

So how do we compare?  If you're going to say it, you ought to have some basis for it, or is it just "whatever we feel"? 

Like I said, I've neither the appetite or desire to debate the decisions and actions (or lacktherof) of your nation from the last 13 months that contributed to the data points.  You (Stads) can cherry pick any number of data points that validate the US did an ok/good/great job.  I could also do the same.  I ain't interested.  As I said, for those that believe the US did an ok-to-good-to-great job at handling the outbreak, all the power to you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 26, 2021, 02:26:19 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 26, 2021, 01:54:36 PM

When a third of Americans refuse to get vaccinated, and a similar number refuse to wear a mask, the most simple and basic precaution, on the basis of "you can't tell me what to do!", I have to conclude that we fucked this whole thing up. There were no doubt tough decisions to be made, and I won't cast blame over who opened this or locked down that, but we failed so hard at the simple stuff that I give us a pretty low grade.

Well, I think we might be playing semantics here.   I'm of the opinion that there is a level of opposition that has to be expected on any level.   To me, "objecting" isn't mismanagement.  Short of Draconian regulations demanding compliance, which wasn't going to get us to 100% either, what were we to do?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: El Barto on March 26, 2021, 02:52:10 PM

Quote from: Stadler on March 26, 2021, 02:26:19 PM

Quote from: El Barto on March 26, 2021, 01:54:36 PM

When a third of Americans refuse to get vaccinated, and a similar number refuse to wear a mask, the most simple and basic precaution, on the basis of "you can't tell me what to do!", I have to conclude that we fucked this whole thing up. There were no doubt tough decisions to be made, and I won't cast blame over who opened this or locked down that, but we failed so hard at the simple stuff that I give us a pretty low grade.

Well, I think we might be playing semantics here.   I'm of the opinion that there is a level of opposition that has to be expected on any level.   To me, "objecting" isn't mismanagement.  Short of Draconian regulations demanding compliance, which wasn't going to get us to 100% either, what were we to do?

Recognize the tremendous overlap between the people who mistrust everything they hear about the virus and the people who would drink any orange flavored beverage handed them by the then leadership of this nation, and message them accordingly. Not only was non-compliance a very simple thing to resolve, it was a problem that never should have been created in the first place. I call that a textbook example of mismanagement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on March 26, 2021, 02:58:14 PM

One problem was that it was always a white-collar lockdown to begin with. Were this world and the way society is ordered not pointed so irreversibly toward the consumption of its resources that the powers that be could have fully stopped the churn for even two weeks like nearly all the public health experts recommended, we might have been better off.

But of course that could not and would never happen, so we'll always have the case numbers and the death toll to remind us that, in the end, making sure consumption didn't completely stop for two weeks was worth more to the powers that be than some 3 million human lives (and by the way, it ain't over).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 26, 2021, 04:17:34 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2021, 01:42:54 PM

Personally, without any data just my opinion, I think the US did OK.  Some of our mistakes (nursing homes) are due to not knowing the virus, some of our problems stem from our own health of the nation (very obese), and some were just poor decisions by our leadership (Trump not acknowledging the effects of a mask until too late).  We did do everything in our power to get vaccines.  We did do everything in our power to get ventilators and hospital space.  Politicizing things didn't help, having the mass resources of the US did help.  It's not such an easy conclusion.  Years from now there will be books on all the mistakes and hopefully some light on great decisions made as well.  Time will tell.

That's a good generalized view point and I agree.  It doesn't take a lot of data to recognize that there are so many variables to consider and not all of them can be mitigated or enforced.
We haven't seen anything like this in the last hundred years.  Society, culture and governments change over time.  It's a different and much more populated world these days.  That complicates things exponentially.  So, I think your right.  We did an ok job.  Could've been better maybe, but it also could've been a lot worse.

Quote from: El Barto on March 26, 2021, 01:54:36 PM

When a third of Americans refuse to get vaccinated, and a similar number refuse to wear a mask, the most simple and basic precaution, on the basis of "you can't tell me what to do!", I have to conclude that we fucked this whole thing up. There were no doubt tough decisions to be made, and I won't cast blame over who opened this or locked down that, but we failed so hard at the simple stuff that I give us a pretty low grade.

What simple stuff?  Was there anything simple about what happened with this virus?  People will make their own choices based on their beliefs.  That can't be 100% controlled by anybody.  It's logistically impossible.  So, where does the simple part come in?  You know, out of all the posts I've seen where people complain about how things were not handled properly or they could've done a better job at this or that; not once have I seen someone offer a better way of doing it or some kind of solution to the problem.  There are too many variables to consider and you couldn't possibly know all of them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2021, 04:21:18 PM

Quote from: Skeever on March 26, 2021, 02:58:14 PM

But of course that could not and would never happen, so we'll always have the case numbers and the death toll to remind us that, in the end, making sure consumption didn't completely stop for two weeks was worth more to the powers that be than some 3 million human lives (and by the way, it ain't over).

We are obese, we are obsessive. Toilet paper was gone! Like this nation is not built to do a necessary minimal lifestyle and stay in for 2 weeks.  Having said that, I don't think a full 2 week shutdown would have ever worked anyway given the way this virus works.  It would probably need to be closer to a worldwide 1 month complete shutdown.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 26, 2021, 04:55:58 PM

Beliefs are what's wrong with choice. Though you most likely would be ok.  Someone else near and dear to you might not be able to survive if they caught covid.

So why can't those think of others in times of strife for some?  We certainly live in me generation. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 26, 2021, 04:59:54 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 26, 2021, 04:55:58 PM

Beliefs are what's wrong with choice. Though you most likely would be ok.  Someone else near and dear to you might not be able to survive if they caught covid.

So why can't those think of others in times of strife for some?  We certainly live in me generation.

Should have added "we are selfish" to my last post, I agree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 27, 2021, 05:01:34 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 26, 2021, 04:21:18 PM

Quote from: Skeever on March 26, 2021, 02:58:14 PM

But of course that could not and would never happen, so we'll always have the case numbers and the death toll to remind us that, in the end, making sure consumption didn't completely stop for two weeks was worth more to the powers that be than some 3 million human lives (and by the way, it ain't over).

We are obese, we are obsessive. Toilet paper was gone! Like this nation is not built to do a necessary minimal lifestyle and stay in for 2 weeks.  Having said that, I don't think a full 2 week shutdown would have ever worked anyway given the way this virus works.  It would probably need to be closer to a worldwide 1 month complete shutdown.

Seemed to work in Australia.  Sure, they are an island, and can control the incomers a lot better, but ultimately, it's up to the gov'ts to outline the steps, and the citizens to commit to executing them.  They were able to do it.  I'm not sure why so few other nations (this includes Canada) weren't able to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 27, 2021, 06:34:34 AM

Welp just got my first shot and currently waiting for a possible reaction. Got that pilthy Pfizer vaccine

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 27, 2021, 08:15:46 AM

The problem with Australia is that the variables are so different.   They are an island, they have the population of Florida (so about 7% of the population of the U.S.), and an area about 80% of the U.S.  I think those factors are important.  I have no better idea than you do as to how important, but they are important.

But, it's widely agreed that the best step Australia took was closing its borders (https://theconversation.com/4-ways-australias-coronavirus-response-was-a-triumph-and-4-ways-it-fell-short-139845).  They are an island.  They have 16 international airports, moving something like 140 million people a year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_airports_by_country).   The U.S., along with having a roughly 6,000 mile border to the north (3,900 mi.) and the south (1,900 mi.), we also have over 115 international airports.  Chicago and New York move 100,000,000 people through EACH, each year.   

Closing the borders in the U.S. was, I'd say, a Herculean task.

I don't think we were fantastic, but I don't think we were as bad as some pundits think.  If I was grading us, I'd give a B-.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 28, 2021, 04:31:24 AM

Ugh.  Dad got his second shot. He is staying with us since last night. He fell in the hall going to the bathroom at Midnight.   Up at 2, 4 & 6 am to pee.  Pissed himself every time. I've barely slept.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on March 28, 2021, 05:26:00 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 28, 2021, 04:31:24 AM

Ugh.  Dad got his second shot. He is staying with us since last night. He fell in the hall going to the bathroom at Midnight.   Up at 2, 4 & 6 am to pee.  Pissed himself every time. I've barely slept.

Oh man... sorry to hear that it was a rough one for you both.   :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 28, 2021, 06:32:07 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 28, 2021, 04:31:24 AM

Ugh.  Dad got his second shot. He is staying with us since last night. He fell in the hall going to the bathroom at Midnight.   Up at 2, 4 & 6 am to pee.  Pissed himself every time. I've barely slept.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with that.  I know what it's like to have an elderly parent at home.  My mother has lived with us now for almost 8 years.  She was 70 when we moved in to this house together.  She'll be 78 in June and luckily for both of us she's still in relatively good shape, both mentally and physically.  She doesn't require any assistance other than a bit of help carrying her groceries into the house and picking up heavy stuff for her.  Her mother died relatively young -she was only 67 when she passed- but everyone else on her side of the family lived to be in their 90's and her grandmother didn't die until she was over 100 years old.  I can't even imagine being 100 but then I never wanted to be 57...until I was 56  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 28, 2021, 07:14:23 AM

It's hard to a strong man in your life so fragile and unable to process the simplest of things. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 28, 2021, 09:21:51 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 28, 2021, 07:14:23 AM

It's hard to a strong man in your life so fragile and unable to process the simplest of things.

Word, brother.  I know how you feel. He's not living with us, but my dad is my idol, my hero, and every conversation with him now is almost like dealing with my 13-year-old step son.  It's hard to put into words the feelings that go along with that.   

If you don't mind me asking, was your Dad's "situation" specifically because of the shot or just the way things go (asking because my parents got their first this past Monday, and my brother and I are figuring out how to gear up for round two.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on March 28, 2021, 09:30:59 AM

Damn, Joe. Hope things get better.  I wish I could say more, but wouldn't know what to say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 28, 2021, 01:11:11 PM

My dad has MS and cancer though he's done well with the cancer treatments over 2 years.

He's extremely weak from the MS. So we had him stay over because he lives at home alone. We made everything at his house on one floor.   He has a motorized recliner to help him get out of it.  Battling on many fronts with him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 28, 2021, 02:34:57 PM

Sorry to hear Joe, you're being a great son

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on March 28, 2021, 02:36:27 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 28, 2021, 01:11:11 PM

My dad has MS and cancer though he's done well with the cancer treatments over 2 years.

He's extremely weak from the MS. So we had him stay over because he lives at home alone. We made everything at his house on one floor.   He has a motorized recliner to help him get out of it.  Battling on many fronts with him.

The love and kindness that runs through you is extraordinary and inspirational.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 28, 2021, 02:44:38 PM

The same can be said of this forum, at times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2021, 03:22:17 PM

That's a part of life, everyone should strive for...IS to grow old enough to where your Children return the favor of you raising them. By showing you the same care by taking care of your needs when you are old and are unable to anymore.

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 28, 2021, 01:11:11 PM

My dad has MS and cancer though he's done well with the cancer treatments over 2 years.

He's extremely weak from the MS. So we had him stay over because he lives at home alone. We made everything at his house on one floor.   He has a motorized recliner to help him get out of it.  Battling on many fronts with him.

No matter how strong the man, all men become frail and old. That's when the generational shift occurs where the old hands over the reigns to the young. While still holding the wisdom the young should be learning from.

It is a struggle, and hard. But, that shows how strong of a person you are individually, and as a family. That's a strong bond many do not have. and  it's sad when people use Nursing Homes as a dump for their elderly parents because they don't want to care for them, I understand why people need them though and do not fault those people that need that extra help in order to live their life as well.

What I learned from what people have told me from their experiences, and one from my own, is taking care of an old, sick, elderly person requires A LOT of Patience. It will test that patience because you are used to them being able to do these things. Yet, you both know they can't do it, so both of you end up a bit frustrated and a bit overwhelmed for the simplest of tasks and basic human habits.

So all I can do is to say...Have patience, make him as comfortable as you can, and to not get too overwhelmed and frustrated. He's fortunate to have a great son as you.  :tup :tup :tup

Edit: I also want to add, to learn as much as you can from him as well. This is the perfect opportunity to be learning all the knowledge your dad has.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 28, 2021, 04:17:49 PM

Joe  :heart :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 28, 2021, 04:33:13 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 28, 2021, 04:31:24 AM

Ugh.  Dad got his second shot. He is staying with us since last night. He fell in the hall going to the bathroom at Midnight.   Up at 2, 4 & 6 am to pee.  Pissed himself every time. I've barely slept.

Just terrible mate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 28, 2021, 04:52:30 PM

I just want him to be semi independent at home for as long as we can. I'm glad during this pandemic he was not in a nursing home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 28, 2021, 06:34:54 PM

Well, dad fell down at home. Thankfully we have cameras set up.  My brother rushed over and called 911.

He's on his way to the hospital.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on March 28, 2021, 06:50:43 PM

Damn!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on March 28, 2021, 07:44:25 PM

Thankfully there is family close by to help out! My inlaws live in the mountains, about 6 hours drive from my SiL (and 1k miles from us). Seems like half the year there is 2-3' of snow there. We are concerned this is not sustainable as they get older.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 28, 2021, 07:50:00 PM

I'm 45 minutes away. I'm so glad that my brother is 7 minutes away.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 28, 2021, 10:02:15 PM

Damn Joe...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 28, 2021, 10:19:04 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 28, 2021, 06:34:54 PM

Well, dad fell down at home. Thankfully we have cameras set up.  My brother rushed over and called 911.

He's on his way to the hospital.

Jesus, not good Joe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on March 28, 2021, 10:23:06 PM

So with our state being back to full capacity and no restrictions for a couple of months, we are going into a 3 day lockdown from 5pm today in the Brisbane area.  Crazy how quick things can eventuate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on March 28, 2021, 11:16:36 PM

Quote from: JLa on March 23, 2021, 03:58:05 AM

I'm so envious of you guys getting your vaccine shots. Vaccination here in Norway is horribly slow already, and now we've paused the Astrazeneca altogether due to the blood clot issue. It's really weird how we've seen so many (or, "many", I think it's 3 deaths and about 5 patients after 130 000 shots) cases when the rest of the world have seen very few. I would still take it if I got the chance, but it'll probably be scrapped now.

I think I'm on schedule for getting vaccinated in May or something. Just gotta stay home a little longer ...

The situation is about the same in Sweden although the AZ vaccine has been cleared for people over 65 years.

I guess I won't get my shot until close to my 52nd birthday in August.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 29, 2021, 06:48:45 AM

I hope your pop is Ok, Joe.  Please let us know what's going on when you can  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 29, 2021, 06:53:53 AM

Thank you Barry. Dad has been admitted to the hospital.  He has a cracked rib.  They are checking for a UTI  (which may explain how many times he had to pee when he stayed over) and the shot does exacerbate neurological issue and with Dad's MS and that may have been the case.  My brother is heading to the hospital mid morning and I am in the afternoon. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 29, 2021, 06:54:34 AM

I'm at my son's house in Dallas, GA this week and I went to my granddaughter's 4th birthday party yesterday wherein my daughter-in-law's entire, huge (and entirely mask-free) family all gathered inside the house.  There had to be 30 people in there at one point.  I stayed outside all day.  I ain't gonna engage in self-service infection at this point, I'm getting my first shot a week from tomorrow. 


After the party my son told me that ALL of them have already had Covid-19 which is why none of them thought masks were necessary.  It's a good thing they were thinking of other folks at the party who haven't been sick yet and who might end up severely ill if they did get infected. (sarcasm)


Down here the businesses are all still requiring masks, but they don't enforce it at all and as a result pretty much nobody wears them. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 29, 2021, 06:56:06 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on March 29, 2021, 06:53:53 AM

Thank you Barry. Dad has been admitted to the hospital.  He has a cracked rib.  They are checking for a UTI  (which may explain how many times he had to pee when he stayed over) and the shot does exacerbate neurological issue and with Dad's MS and that may have been the case.  My brother is heading to the hospital mid morning and I am in the afternoon.

I suppose it could have been worse than just a cracked rib.  At least that won't have a big impact on his mobility like a busted hip or leg would have had.  Not making light of what happened, just, you know, glass half full  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on March 29, 2021, 07:31:23 AM

Oh Absolutely.  I'm more worried being in the hospital right now.  I know they have separate floors for the Covid patients but it still makes the anxiety rise a bit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on March 29, 2021, 07:37:48 AM

Even though Florida is officially opening vaccination slots to all 18+ on April 5th, several places are offering shots already. The faster the whole state gets vaccinated the better, fingers crossed summer is mostly a plateau time for cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 29, 2021, 04:49:55 PM

What has two thumbs, and is fully vaccinated? THIS GUY!!!





EDIT- to any who had ill effects from the second dose, how long did they take to hit. I'm four hours in and just have a little soreness in the arm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on March 30, 2021, 04:52:17 AM

Article in American Journal of Public Health looks like it is suggesting that Florida might have undercounted deaths from Covid-19 by almost 5000.  That is a pretty big margin.  Each state seems to have differing ways of determining if Covid-19 was cause of death.  That seems to raise questions on comparing deaths in one state to another, if they use different methods to determine cause of death.  Maybe Florida isn't such a shining example of Covid-19 response?  It will be interesting to see if there can even be a true comparison between states like CA, NY, FL, etc. with so many differing factors.  It might be nothing, as some disagree with the assertion, but it at least shines a light on the fact that there should be a national standard for determining cause of death during the pandemic.

And.....I get shot #2 Thursday!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on March 30, 2021, 06:27:59 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 29, 2021, 04:49:55 PM

What has two thumbs, and is fully vaccinated? THIS GUY!!!


EDIT- to any who had ill effects from the second dose, how long did they take to hit. I'm four hours in and just have a little soreness in the arm.

Awesome! I didn't follow which shot you got buy my wife got Pfizer and the day of her second dose she felt fine, a little soreness on the arm. The second day she felt really bad, lots of joint aches. Spent most of the day laying on the floor because she said that was the only place she could get comfortable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 30, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 30, 2021, 04:52:17 AM

Article in American Journal of Public Health looks like it is suggesting that Florida might have undercounted deaths from Covid-19 by almost 5000.  That is a pretty big margin.  Each state seems to have differing ways of determining if Covid-19 was cause of death.  That seems to raise questions on comparing deaths in one state to another, if they use different methods to determine cause of death.  Maybe Florida isn't such a shining example of Covid-19 response?  It will be interesting to see if there can even be a true comparison between states like CA, NY, FL, etc. with so many differing factors.  It might be nothing, as some disagree with the assertion, but it at least shines a light on the fact that there should be a national standard for determining cause of death during the pandemic.

And.....I get shot #2 Thursday!

It's actually amazingly bad how inconsistent out death count is in the US.  You'd think such an important metric would be documented correctly and timely. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 30, 2021, 07:28:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 30, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 30, 2021, 04:52:17 AM

Article in American Journal of Public Health looks like it is suggesting that Florida might have undercounted deaths from Covid-19 by almost 5000.  That is a pretty big margin.  Each state seems to have differing ways of determining if Covid-19 was cause of death.  That seems to raise questions on comparing deaths in one state to another, if they use different methods to determine cause of death.  Maybe Florida isn't such a shining example of Covid-19 response?  It will be interesting to see if there can even be a true comparison between states like CA, NY, FL, etc. with so many differing factors.  It might be nothing, as some disagree with the assertion, but it at least shines a light on the fact that there should be a national standard for determining cause of death during the pandemic.

And.....I get shot #2 Thursday!

It's actually amazingly bad how inconsistent out death count is in the US.  You'd think such an important metric would be documented correctly and timely.

The problem is a combination of two things:


1. Politics - States run by conservatives are, generally, undercounting Covid-19-related deaths because it conflicts with their "everything is fine" narrative and states run by liberals are doing everything they can to attribute any deaths where the patient was covid-19 positive to Covid-19.  On the surface that sounds logical and even fair, but the problem is if someone with COPD dies of respiratory arrest and that person was Covid-19 positive, they're going to list the cause of death as "Covid-19" when the truth is really quite a bit murkier than that.  A death in that situation was more likely caused by a combination of factors related to COPD and Covid-19 so is it really accurate to just label that as "death by Covid-19" ? 


2. Lack of a national standard - If the federal government would simply produce a set of standards for how and when it's appropriate to count a death as having been caused by Covid-19 and enforce those standards across all 50 states, it would go a long way towards fixing problems like Florida, where they are clearly undercounting and in other places up north where they are probably attributing a lot of deaths to Covid-19 that weren't necessarily caused exclusively by Covid-19.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 30, 2021, 07:37:43 AM

Well we also have the democratic state's nursing home problem of not counting deaths in NY/NJ areas.  To me, what Florida and NY may be doing (I'm personally assuming both are misreporting numbers) may be more criminal than negligent though.

My biggest issue is the death count reporting counts for the day reported, not the day of death too.  The data dumps are a problem for trying to analyze these statistics. I think this goes to more negligent than criminal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 30, 2021, 07:45:51 AM

Yeah, there are a lot of issues with the numbers we are reporting.

Here in New York, the city and state can't agree on how to count positive cases. The City was counting repeat positives (meaning, 1 tested positive, went and got tested again 4 days later and still positive, it counts as 2 positive cases), but the state disagreed with that and were only counting it as 1 case per person.

I imagine with deaths and determining what the actual cause is, it gets a bit more complicated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 30, 2021, 07:53:52 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on March 30, 2021, 06:27:59 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 29, 2021, 04:49:55 PM

What has two thumbs, and is fully vaccinated? THIS GUY!!!


EDIT- to any who had ill effects from the second dose, how long did they take to hit. I'm four hours in and just have a little soreness in the arm.

Awesome! I didn't follow which shot you got buy my wife got Pfizer and the day of her second dose she felt fine, a little soreness on the arm. The second day she felt really bad, lots of joint aches. Spent most of the day laying on the floor because she said that was the only place she could get comfortable.

I got the Pfizer as well. Woke up with a very slight headache, which is kind of par for the course for me these days so I'm not sure if it's from the shot or just life as a 50+ year old. My arm hurts like a motherfucker, way worse than the first go round, couldn't even sleep on it. Otherwise I'm good to go. I took the day off just in case, so it looks like I got a day to enjoy myself. :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on March 30, 2021, 07:56:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 30, 2021, 07:53:52 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on March 30, 2021, 06:27:59 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 29, 2021, 04:49:55 PM

What has two thumbs, and is fully vaccinated? THIS GUY!!!


EDIT- to any who had ill effects from the second dose, how long did they take to hit. I'm four hours in and just have a little soreness in the arm.

Awesome! I didn't follow which shot you got buy my wife got Pfizer and the day of her second dose she felt fine, a little soreness on the arm. The second day she felt really bad, lots of joint aches. Spent most of the day laying on the floor because she said that was the only place she could get comfortable.

I got the Pfizer as well. Woke up with a very slight headache, which is kind of par for the course for me these days so I'm not sure if it's from the shot or just life as a 50+ year old. My arm hurts like a motherfucker, way worse than the first go round, couldn't even sleep on it. Otherwise I'm good to go. I took the day off just in case, so it looks like I got a day to enjoy myself. :biggrin:

I haven't received the second shot yet, but one of my employees started getting side effects 36 hours after, another was 24, so just keep an eye out for any chills and aches.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 30, 2021, 08:19:17 AM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on March 30, 2021, 07:56:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 30, 2021, 07:53:52 AM

Quote from: ReaperKK on March 30, 2021, 06:27:59 AM

Quote from: lonestar on March 29, 2021, 04:49:55 PM

What has two thumbs, and is fully vaccinated? THIS GUY!!!


EDIT- to any who had ill effects from the second dose, how long did they take to hit. I'm four hours in and just have a little soreness in the arm.

Awesome! I didn't follow which shot you got buy my wife got Pfizer and the day of her second dose she felt fine, a little soreness on the arm. The second day she felt really bad, lots of joint aches. Spent most of the day laying on the floor because she said that was the only place she could get comfortable.

I got the Pfizer as well. Woke up with a very slight headache, which is kind of par for the course for me these days so I'm not sure if it's from the shot or just life as a 50+ year old. My arm hurts like a motherfucker, way worse than the first go round, couldn't even sleep on it. Otherwise I'm good to go. I took the day off just in case, so it looks like I got a day to enjoy myself. :biggrin:

I haven't received the second shot yet, but one of my employees started getting side effects 36 hours after, another was 24, so just keep an eye out for any chills and aches.

Noted, thanks  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 30, 2021, 08:56:54 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 30, 2021, 07:28:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 30, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 30, 2021, 04:52:17 AM

Article in American Journal of Public Health looks like it is suggesting that Florida might have undercounted deaths from Covid-19 by almost 5000.  That is a pretty big margin.  Each state seems to have differing ways of determining if Covid-19 was cause of death.  That seems to raise questions on comparing deaths in one state to another, if they use different methods to determine cause of death.  Maybe Florida isn't such a shining example of Covid-19 response?  It will be interesting to see if there can even be a true comparison between states like CA, NY, FL, etc. with so many differing factors.  It might be nothing, as some disagree with the assertion, but it at least shines a light on the fact that there should be a national standard for determining cause of death during the pandemic.

And.....I get shot #2 Thursday!

It's actually amazingly bad how inconsistent out death count is in the US.  You'd think such an important metric would be documented correctly and timely.

The problem is a combination of two things:


1. Politics - States run by conservatives are, generally, undercounting Covid-19-related deaths because it conflicts with their "everything is fine" narrative and states run by liberals are doing everything they can to attribute any deaths where the patient was covid-19 positive to Covid-19.  On the surface that sounds logical and even fair, but the problem is if someone with COPD dies of respiratory arrest and that person was Covid-19 positive, they're going to list the cause of death as "Covid-19" when the truth is really quite a bit murkier than that.  A death in that situation was more likely caused by a combination of factors related to COPD and Covid-19 so is it really accurate to just label that as "death by Covid-19" ? 


2. Lack of a national standard - If the federal government would simply produce a set of standards for how and when it's appropriate to count a death as having been caused by Covid-19 and enforce those standards across all 50 states, it would go a long way towards fixing problems like Florida, where they are clearly undercounting and in other places up north where they are probably attributing a lot of deaths to Covid-19 that weren't necessarily caused exclusively by Covid-19.

Both of those are how they determined whether we should be in lockdown.

If what you say about COPD people dying from COPD but some states list Covid as the cause and others don't, for the same death...then what the hell.

They're using death as a means to implement their lockdown executive orders. And then being inconsistent with how they determine that is really a big factor. So, states are either inflating or downplaying the actual numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 30, 2021, 09:23:55 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 30, 2021, 08:56:54 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on March 30, 2021, 07:28:28 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 30, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on March 30, 2021, 04:52:17 AM

Article in American Journal of Public Health looks like it is suggesting that Florida might have undercounted deaths from Covid-19 by almost 5000.  That is a pretty big margin.  Each state seems to have differing ways of determining if Covid-19 was cause of death.  That seems to raise questions on comparing deaths in one state to another, if they use different methods to determine cause of death.  Maybe Florida isn't such a shining example of Covid-19 response?  It will be interesting to see if there can even be a true comparison between states like CA, NY, FL, etc. with so many differing factors.  It might be nothing, as some disagree with the assertion, but it at least shines a light on the fact that there should be a national standard for determining cause of death during the pandemic.

And.....I get shot #2 Thursday!

It's actually amazingly bad how inconsistent out death count is in the US.  You'd think such an important metric would be documented correctly and timely.

The problem is a combination of two things:


1. Politics - States run by conservatives are, generally, undercounting Covid-19-related deaths because it conflicts with their "everything is fine" narrative and states run by liberals are doing everything they can to attribute any deaths where the patient was covid-19 positive to Covid-19.  On the surface that sounds logical and even fair, but the problem is if someone with COPD dies of respiratory arrest and that person was Covid-19 positive, they're going to list the cause of death as "Covid-19" when the truth is really quite a bit murkier than that.  A death in that situation was more likely caused by a combination of factors related to COPD and Covid-19 so is it really accurate to just label that as "death by Covid-19" ? 


2. Lack of a national standard - If the federal government would simply produce a set of standards for how and when it's appropriate to count a death as having been caused by Covid-19 and enforce those standards across all 50 states, it would go a long way towards fixing problems like Florida, where they are clearly undercounting and in other places up north where they are probably attributing a lot of deaths to Covid-19 that weren't necessarily caused exclusively by Covid-19.

Both of those are how they determined whether we should be in lockdown.

If what you say about COPD people dying from COPD but some states list Covid as the cause and others don't, for the same death...then what the hell.

They're using death as a means to implement their lockdown executive orders. And then being inconsistent with how they determine that is really a big factor. So, states are either inflating or downplaying the actual numbers.

I *think* they are using hospitalizations to make lockdown decisions and then manipulating deaths to explain why their lockdown decisions made sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on March 30, 2021, 09:43:09 AM

can't believe we're in march 2021(almost april) and some are still arguing if the lockdown orders were necessary

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on March 30, 2021, 09:51:23 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 30, 2021, 09:43:09 AM

can't believe we're in march 2021(almost april) and some are still arguing if the lockdown orders were necessary

No surprise there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on March 30, 2021, 02:56:43 PM

WI opening vaccinations up to everyone 16+ next week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on March 30, 2021, 04:19:14 PM

In the US the death count/certificate process can be found at the following page:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm)
They describe the pitfalls and some potential discussion points as well (which are there). I think it is best people read the official guidelines and communications from the actual sources, before resorting to conspiracies.

I would like to stress that there is a difference between covid being mentioned on a death certificate and covid being the cause of death. And that cause of death or likely cause of death is determined by the medical professionals involved in the process of the respective patient. I'd like to believe most of those aren't hacks and know what they are doing. But I have only talked with doctors at my work, which is offcourse a different country with a different healthcare system.

And last I heard, yearly death by cause statistics of a lot of countries indicate it is very unlikely that the death numbers have been overcounted.



On another note, here we unfortunately are doing badly. The UK variant is bad news. Thankfully the vavcinations of the vulnerable groups do seem to be paying off. I also made "promotion" on my voluntary work and have been trained to call with the actual covid patients as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 31, 2021, 06:11:11 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on March 30, 2021, 09:43:09 AM

can't believe we're in march 2021(almost april) and some are still arguing if the lockdown orders were necessary

Um, welcome to earth?  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on March 31, 2021, 06:55:07 AM

Seems I made it through round 2 of the vaccine with no side effects other than the Charley horse arm.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on March 31, 2021, 07:04:34 AM

My 77-year-old mother had the same experience, luckily.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on March 31, 2021, 03:57:02 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/vaccines-working-latest-surge-covid-203300862.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/vaccines-working-latest-surge-covid-203300862.html)

This article seems to sum up the way I've been feeling lately.  Vaccines seem to be working, the rise in cases are of young people who aren't yet vaccinated and also aren't stressing the hospital systems at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 01, 2021, 04:51:31 AM

Received word last night that both of my son-in-law's parents have it. Both in their late 60s with multiple other health issues. Gonna be tough going for them.

This beast is relentless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 01, 2021, 04:55:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on March 31, 2021, 03:57:02 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/vaccines-working-latest-surge-covid-203300862.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/vaccines-working-latest-surge-covid-203300862.html)

This article seems to sum up the way I've been feeling lately.  Vaccines seem to be working, the rise in cases are of young people who aren't yet vaccinated and also aren't stressing the hospital systems at all.

Lucky you (US).  Up here, the ICU counts are the highest they've been ever.  Most provinces have had upwards of 100% growth in case counts over the last month, and are trying to go into stricter restrictions to contain this while they cluster fuck their way thru vaccine distribution.  They're still ONLY doing it by age, and only just this week got to the 65yrs old grouping - and that's only because the older population isn't taking up all the booking slots for some reason.

Also saw that a human error at JnJ yesterday spoiled 15M doses.  :facepalm:  Canada was supposed to get shipments of that one this month... guess that's gonna be delayed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on April 01, 2021, 05:02:39 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 01, 2021, 04:55:23 AM

Also saw that a human error at JnJ yesterday spoiled 15M doses.  :facepalm:  Canada was supposed to get shipments of that one this month... guess that's gonna be delayed.

Those Hosers. :tdwn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 01, 2021, 06:00:04 AM

Scheduled me an appointment for the 9th to be inoculated. I don't have a clue which one I'm getting though. My employer sent us through an online portal I hadn't heard of before (don't think the general public can use it) with a unique code to one of three mass vaccination sites. I'm getting the shot at a music venue I've seen DT at like seven :lol times 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 01, 2021, 06:23:02 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on April 01, 2021, 05:02:39 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 01, 2021, 04:55:23 AM

Also saw that a human error at JnJ yesterday spoiled 15M doses.  :facepalm:  Canada was supposed to get shipments of that one this month... guess that's gonna be delayed.

Those Hosers. :tdwn

Crying shame. That's a lot of doses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 01, 2021, 07:00:02 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 01, 2021, 06:23:02 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on April 01, 2021, 05:02:39 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 01, 2021, 04:55:23 AM

Also saw that a human error at JnJ yesterday spoiled 15M doses.  :facepalm:  Canada was supposed to get shipments of that one this month... guess that's gonna be delayed.

Those Hosers. :tdwn

Crying shame. That's a lot of doses.

saw that as well  :facepalm: J&J still expects to be able to ship 24 million doses though, but 15 million is a big blow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on April 01, 2021, 07:06:39 AM

The plant (of course, here in Baltimore), was not yet authorized to be in production phase of J&J vaccines, so the company is sending officials there to investigate. Reports I've read say these will not affect current worldwide shipments as those were produced in the Netherlands, and these are not expected to hamper the goal to have enough vaccines for every US adult by May. Makes me wonder why they were even working on it if they didn't have authorization.

My source: https://www.axios.com/emergent-biosolutions-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-dfd781a8-d007-4354-910a-e30d5007839b.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 01, 2021, 07:40:53 AM

The J&J news is terrible.  That's a 15 million people who could have been vaccinated.  Huge blow.  I don't think it changes the big picture, but those single shots are super critical to the speed of getting vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on April 01, 2021, 08:06:55 AM

Just got my 2nd dose (Pfizer).  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 08:07:49 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 01, 2021, 04:51:31 AM

Received word last night that both of my son-in-law's parents have it. Both in their late 60s with multiple other health issues. Gonna be tough going for them.

This beast is relentless.

Thoughts are with you and your family, emtee.  Here's to them pulling through unscathed or relatively so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on April 01, 2021, 08:18:48 AM

So sorry to hear your family has contracted it. Really hoping they com through it okay.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 01, 2021, 09:05:45 AM

I'm frustrated with vaccine availability/rollout in Illinois.  My county is still doing age 65+ and an expanded list of essential employees.  Sadly, not financial employees.  I was essential enough to be "essential" a year ago, but not essential enough for an early shot at a vaccine.  The state will open availability to anyone age 16+ in two weeks and it will likely be mayhem as there will be so many more people trying to get a shot.

I've tried getting appointments at pharmacies by fudging that I have some co-morbidity, but there are NONE.  It's like playing the lotto.  It's so disheartening to see so many people I know that are older, have some condition, or are in certain industries celebrating their vaccinations and here I am, Mr. Healthy, and I feel completely left out. 


On another note, my sister-in-law has COVID.  I've known a few people through the neighborhood or Facebook that have admitted they had it, but this is the first family member that I know of that has come down with it.  She's an idiot though - her and her boyfriend went to the Wisconsin Dells and likely did not wear masks or stay distanced (she's a big bar-fly).  Almost everyone in the family is tired of her antics, so I don't think anyone feels too sorry for her.  I definitely don't.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 09:19:54 AM

Quote from: Grappler on April 01, 2021, 09:05:45 AM

On another note, my sister-in-law has COVID.  I've known a few people through the neighborhood or Facebook that have admitted they had it, but this is the first family member that I know of that has come down with it.  She's an idiot though - her and her boyfriend went to the Wisconsin Dells and likely did not wear masks or stay distanced (she's a big bar-fly).  Almost everyone in the family is tired of her antics, so I don't think anyone feels too sorry for her.  I definitely don't.

Does she wear a mask when she goes out....or does she pretend it doesn't exist? I only ask because for me it hearkens back to the original reason for the lockdown. Not to overwhelm the hospitals. I know Chad has mentioned that Canada is still reeling and is at capacity in areas.....but for the most part between improved treatments, vaccinations and people already having it and being in the early parts of herd immunity.....if  you're a 'healthy' person who practices good hygiene and wears a mask.....go out and live your life.

At this point unless you've truly stayed locked in your house and aren't leaving for anything.....it's a bit hypocritical to bash and slam others when they catch it. Unless they're refusing to wear a mask and are ignoring all the guidelines and suggestions and just being an idiot and they catch it then sure.....criticism is warranted. But if you're obeying the guidelines and doing your part and catch it then I don't see why someone should be criticized. The LARGE majority of us who've caught this or will catch it will pass it naturally....and again, the lockdown wasn't to assure us that none of us would get it or to keep us all from getting it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on April 01, 2021, 09:28:42 AM

My wife's family has been ridiculously reckless with regard to COVID, especially considering their grandmother died of it. That said, almost all are vaccinated now, my wife is vaxxed, and my second shot is next Wednesday, so we can be sure all caution that might have still been in play will be tossed very shortly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 01, 2021, 09:31:37 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 09:19:54 AM

Quote from: Grappler on April 01, 2021, 09:05:45 AM

On another note, my sister-in-law has COVID.  I've known a few people through the neighborhood or Facebook that have admitted they had it, but this is the first family member that I know of that has come down with it.  She's an idiot though - her and her boyfriend went to the Wisconsin Dells and likely did not wear masks or stay distanced (she's a big bar-fly).  Almost everyone in the family is tired of her antics, so I don't think anyone feels too sorry for her.  I definitely don't.

Does she wear a mask when she goes out....or does she pretend it doesn't exist? I only ask because for me it hearkens back to the original reason for the lockdown. Not to overwhelm the hospitals. I know Chad has mentioned that Canada is still reeling and is at capacity in areas.....but for the most part between improved treatments, vaccinations and people already having it and being in the early parts of herd immunity.....if  you're a 'healthy' person who practices good hygiene and wears a mask.....go out and live your life.

At this point unless you've truly stayed locked in your house and aren't leaving for anything.....it's a bit hypocritical to bash and slam others when they catch it. Unless they're refusing to wear a mask and are ignoring all the guidelines and suggestions and just being an idiot and they catch it then sure.....criticism is warranted. But if you're obeying the guidelines and doing your part and catch it then I don't see why someone should be criticized. The LARGE majority of us who've caught this or will catch it will pass it naturally....and again, the lockdown wasn't to assure us that none of us would get it or to keep us all from getting it.

I honestly don't know if she wears a mask or not.  I see her once a year.  She teaches for a living, so I know she wears one at work.  But when it comes to her social life, I doubt she wears a mask, especially if she's out drinking.  I'm a bit harsh here because of my issues with her unrelated to COVID.  (undiagnosed bi-polar and narcissist).  Ultimately, she behaves in a certain manner solely for attention seeking purposes, so her coming down with COVID is a reason for her to contact everyone she knows in order to obtain sympathy.  She's 38 years old and the instant something goes wrong in her life, she runs to her dad.  Her dad then spends time with her, and then he comes over and spends time with my kids (his grandkids).

He knows that the rest of the family doesn't really like her anymore, so he doesn't always tell people when he sees her.  So there's the issue - SIL comes down with COVID.  Her dad might meet up for lunch with her prior to her positive test, but doesn't tell the rest of the family so he doesn't anger his wife, then he goes home to his wife and spends time with my family and kids.   There's a bit more to the situation than me just beating her up over being reckless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 09:32:18 AM

Quote from: Hyperplex on April 01, 2021, 09:28:42 AM

My wife's family has been ridiculously reckless with regard to COVID, especially considering their grandmother died of it. That said, almost all are vaccinated now, my wife is vaxxed, and my second shot is next Wednesday, so we can be sure all caution that might have still been in play will be tossed very shortly.

Most people I know wear the masks, wash hands frequently.....and that's about it. The social distancing part has pretty much disappeared. My wife and I are fully vaccinated but our kids obviously aren't. They did have Covid in December so who knows how long those antibodies are actually useful.

We will continue to wear the masks and be diligent about hygiene.....but are most definitely not in lock down mode.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hyperplex on April 01, 2021, 09:35:56 AM

To me, there is a difference between not being in lockdown and still being cautious. What you mentioned is perfectly reasonable. I would add that I believe unnecessary travel, especially to areas that are still hotspots, and especially with vulnerable members, should still be kept in check. Her family has repeatedly traveled to Florida, despite at the time not being fully vaccinated, with members of the family that are still vulnerable, and repeatedly ignore most masking. We have avoided them for those specific reasons.

And I will continue to be nervous until vaccines are safely available for kids in my childrens' age range, 6-10.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 01, 2021, 09:44:39 AM

Given the way the variants are raging out of control up here, and our vax game looks like the Sabres (last night's game notwithstanding), I suspect I'll be wearing a mask in public through until Spring '22.  Until Covid is not the dominant headline every single day, and until case counts are virtually meaningless, better safe than sorry.  My best guess is Canada won't get to anything close to 'herd immunity' until September / October, and then we're into the cold/indoor season.

My biggest fear is that Canada develops a new "variant" that is vax-resistant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 01, 2021, 10:30:16 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 01, 2021, 09:44:39 AM

Until Covid is not the dominant headline every single day, and until case counts are virtually meaningless, better safe than sorry. 

You know this makes me wonder. Just how much the media dominating their headlines with this information played into people's reactions to this disease? and that makes me wonder, what if we never had gotten that kind of information at all? Would it have been taken as just a rougher flu, like some people I know were told when they got these covid-like symptoms back when Covid wasn't even named that yet, in late November and early December of 2019?

This seems important to me because all these play into the fear of the disease and fear of death. And how we can ease these fears.

If it's about overwhelming the hospitals, and easing their overload, so that when the people do end up getting these bad Covid symptoms, they can be admitted and easily able to be treated and looked at, isn't that where we are at now? or some places at least...

Vaccines help ease that burden, because they ease the severity of the symptoms. You may still catch it and pass it on, but you won't get as sick as you would if you don't have a vaccine. Thus, easing the burden on the hospitals, and letting those that do get these severe symptoms can be admitted at the hospital, without worry of being denied emergency care. Isn't that why they weren't allowing the other various types of diseases that kill people, like Cancer screenings? So, then what if you are that cancer patient who is now denied your regular care, because they are prioritizing those people rather than you, what are you going to do about that?

I am not arguing with these questions either. I just want to really, really understand if this is THE REASON for Locking Down and Shutting Down the world.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 11:13:42 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 01, 2021, 10:30:16 AM

the media dominating their headlines with this information played into people's reactions to this disease?

I have zero doubt that the way this virus was reported has affected the 'fear' felt towards it. I'm not downplaying the severity of the virus and the dangers it carries.....but, mindset and mental approach are just as important as practical measures and the reportage of this disease has literally been nothing but doom and gloom....in large part IMO because it happened under trumps administration where the media was already largely 'against' him.....so you won't be able to convince me otherwise that the way this disease was reported had just as much political agenda behind it...maybe more....as it had just reporting about the disease itself.

Even to this day there's nothing more than the media wants desperately than these small variants to blow up into 4th and 5th and 6th waves......that's even if there was ever really a 2nd and 3rd wave?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 11:26:12 AM

So I've taken to taping the news now, for this very reason.  Some of you know I'm not shy about participating in the P/R threads, but I've long ago now foresaken cable news entirely (Fox, CNN AND MSNBC; I see zero difference).    I've mainly stuck to local news because it's relevant and, well, weather.   

I had occasion to watch the ten and eleven o'clock news last night.  And easily half of it was COVID.  Nothing new, frankly, but it's just INCESSANT.   Positivity rates, hospital occupancy, percent vaccinated.  None of the indicators are critical (https://covidactnow.org/us/connecticut-ct/?s=1723645); ICU occupancy is 55% or so (that means we can handle a COVID rush); our positivity rate is about 3.8% (that means we have adequate testing); our infection rate is about 1.15 (which isn't great, but it is what it is).  Chad said he's waiting for this to be ho-hum, but honestly, we should be closer to that than the media is indicating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 11:13:42 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 01, 2021, 10:30:16 AM

the media dominating their headlines with this information played into people's reactions to this disease?

I have zero doubt that the way this virus was reported has affected the 'fear' felt towards it. I'm not downplaying the severity of the virus and the dangers it carries.....but, mindset and mental approach are just as important as practical measures and the reportage of this disease has literally been nothing but doom and gloom....in large part IMO because it happened under trumps administration where the media was already largely 'against' him.....so you won't be able to convince me otherwise that the way this disease was reported had just as much political agenda behind it...maybe more....as it had just reporting about the disease itself.

Even to this day there's nothing more than the media wants desperately than these small variants to blow up into 4th and 5th and 6th waves......that's even if there was ever really a 2nd and 3rd wave?

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 12:56:46 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

It's been proven; didn't someone here post the link to the study done about American media COVID coverage? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 01, 2021, 12:58:14 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

I am going to call bullshit on this comment. Please give examples.

What we can say for sure is that some media outlets along with politicians tried to downplay the severity of the virus. Starting with the then prez.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 01, 2021, 01:05:19 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 01, 2021, 12:58:14 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

I am going to call bullshit on this comment. Please give examples.

What we can say for sure is that some media outlets along with politicians tried to downplay the severity of the virus. Starting with the then prez.....

The Trump camp for sure but the media?  Only once station downplayed that.  All others started with horrific pictures and graphs.  I'm more upset with the states that fudge the counts. We needed real numbers and politicians like Cuomo were being politicians.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 01:06:51 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 01, 2021, 12:58:14 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

I am going to call bullshit on this comment. Please give examples.

What we can say for sure is that some media outlets along with politicians tried to downplay the severity of the virus. Starting with the then prez.....

Look, if that's the partisan take you want to adopt, that's fine. IT'S HERE (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/when-it-comes-to-coronavirus-u-s-media-coverage-is-far-more-negative-than-elsewhere-university-researchers-conclude-11606156163), though it has already been referenced in this thread (or the Political one).  There was a study done on American media.   They fear mongered the crap out of this.  If you want to call Fox News perhaps not playing along as "downplaying the severity" have at it; the article says otherwise:  "An interesting finding is the negativity wasn’t correlated with partisanship — Fox News, for example, was as negative in tone as CNN."   I'm going to wager that no statistics, facts or studies in the word is going to disavow you of that notion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 01:08:56 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 01, 2021, 01:05:19 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 01, 2021, 12:58:14 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

I am going to call bullshit on this comment. Please give examples.

What we can say for sure is that some media outlets along with politicians tried to downplay the severity of the virus. Starting with the then prez.....

The Trump camp for sure but the media?  Only once station downplayed that.  All others started with horrific pictures and graphs.  I'm more upset with the states that fudge the counts. We needed real numbers and politicians like Cuomo were being politicians.

And I would argue that "one station downplaying it" begs the question that the other stations had it right.  I don't agree with that.  I think the media DID overplay it, which would at least introduce into the equation that maybe, like a broken clock is right twice a day, that Fox had it right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 01, 2021, 12:58:14 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

I am going to call bullshit on this comment. Please give examples.

What we can say for sure is that some media outlets along with politicians tried to downplay the severity of the virus. Starting with the then prez.....

What I'm not going to do is get in a debate over something neither of us are going to change each others minds on. I saw it how I saw it and you did likewise. Calling 'bullshit' on a comment doesn't make you right nor does me making the comment engrave it as cannon. It's interpretation.....and I interpret the coverage of the American media concerning covid as mostly garbage fear tactics littered with a political agenda with a bit of truth sprinkled in to try and camouflage the piles of crap they were selling.

This debate/argument is a waste of time at this point.....so respectfully I'm sorry....but I'm not going to partake in it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 01, 2021, 02:23:01 PM

Today's latest numbers:

Quote

2.7M shots yesterday so total up to 150.27M with the 7 day rolling average at 2.83M. 76.8% of shots administered is the national average, 29.4% of population with 1+ dose (note this is percent of population that has been given 1 or 2 doses, so total percent that have been pricked by a needle), 16.4% fully vaccinated.
So far, 97.6 million Americans have received at least one dose of a vaccine. At least 54.6 million people have completed a vaccination regimen.

Doses delivered is 195.66M compared to yesterday 188.47M. So 87.19M doses delivered yesterday, 16.0M doses delivered for the week. Previous week totals for doses delivered is 23.8, 21.1M, 20.0M, 19.7M,21.2M, 5.1M, 9.96M and , 9.4M.

68,756 positives reported yesterday compared to 67,115 week over week. 7-day rolling average is at 65,308

Fatality was 1115 compared to 873 yesterday and 1432 week over week, 7-day rolling fatality at 932.

So the big news is that some amount of J&J vaccine was rejected for quality issues. These vaccines are not in circulation but the article mentioned it could be nearly 15M doses that will be rejected and then not be available to ship at a later date. Appears human error was the issue.

So looking at the data, appears Oklahoma is now reporting fatalies only one day per week, hence the big fatality reporting always on Wednesday.

Good to see week over week fatality number down today and the 7 day rolling starting to go down again. As was talked, last week's reporting on fatalities was off and hopefully this week it gets back to the downward trajectory it was on.

MIchigan right now going crazy. 7 day average daily positive on March 1 was 1340 it is 5685 now, it is a pretty insane upward swing. Looking at the charts, MIchigan is almost solely responsible for the current upward swing in the daily positive. The other big states like NY, NJ, FL have all leveled off the last week.

Highlighted what I find to be the most interesting. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 01, 2021, 03:12:38 PM

I can hear them blaming the spike on Whitmer already lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:22:59 PM

Got my first shot today. Woo!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 01, 2021, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:22:59 PM

Got my first shot today. Woo!

I said, what what, in the arm

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:31:44 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 01, 2021, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:22:59 PM

Got my first shot today. Woo!

I said, what what, in the arm

You wanna put it in my arm, in my arm?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 01, 2021, 03:47:32 PM

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 01, 2021, 05:57:04 PM

Nice...I would've thought you were on the first wave, but I wasn't sure exactly how your practice works. I gather you're not in a hospital setting. No matter, congrats, welcome to the club.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 01, 2021, 06:28:36 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 01, 2021, 05:57:04 PM

Nice...I would've thought you were on the first wave, but I wasn't sure exactly how your practice works. I gather you're not in a hospital setting. No matter, congrats, welcome to the club.

Yea my job is 100% remote. So I only qualify with age now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 01, 2021, 06:36:11 PM

Finally pays to get old Adami. Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 07:50:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:31:44 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 01, 2021, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:22:59 PM

Got my first shot today. Woo!

I said, what what, in the arm

You wanna put it in my arm, in my arm?

What the hell did I just read?!?  :) :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mike099 on April 01, 2021, 08:13:01 PM

Got my first shot of the Moderna brand.  Felt weak, tired and achy all over for 48 hours and now back to normal ready to exercise again.  I am 63 and they opened up for 55 and over in my area of Tennessee.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 01, 2021, 08:37:23 PM

Vaccine open to all adults here in WA April 15. Honestly have given no thought to getting it, as I assumed it would be fall before I would qualify. Not against it by any means, just haven't been anxious to get it. Other than the obvious (protection against the virus), my life isn't going to change any, as far as my work (normal), travel (none), gatherings (minimal), and such.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 01, 2021, 09:44:22 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 07:50:09 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:31:44 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 01, 2021, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 01, 2021, 03:22:59 PM

Got my first shot today. Woo!

I said, what what, in the butt

You wanna put it in my butt, in my butt?

What the hell did I just read?!?  :) :)

Fixed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU&ab_channel=BrownmarkFilms)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 02, 2021, 05:29:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 01, 2021, 11:26:12 AM

I had occasion to watch the ten and eleven o'clock news last night.  And easily half of it was COVID.  Nothing new, frankly, but it's just INCESSANT.   Positivity rates, hospital occupancy, percent vaccinated.  None of the indicators are critical (https://covidactnow.org/us/connecticut-ct/?s=1723645); ICU occupancy is 55% or so (that means we can handle a COVID rush); our positivity rate is about 3.8% (that means we have adequate testing); our infection rate is about 1.15 (which isn't great, but it is what it is).  Chad said he's waiting for this to be ho-hum, but honestly, we should be closer to that than the media is indicating.

On the 1st bolded part, I agree.  But we're still in the thick of it, and the indicators ARE critical.  I long for the day where our indicators are (proportionately) more like yours.  Hence, it ain't ho-hum up here.  Positivity rates in the hot-spots in Ontario are upwards of 15%.  I think the R is still close to 1.5.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 01, 2021, 12:48:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 01, 2021, 11:55:15 AM

I guess I think you’re overstating things a little bit.  At least up here like jingle said the situation isn’t great and it’s not just because of the news or that we’re scared of nothing.

Like I said....I'm not dismissing the seriousness of the virus. The wrong people catch it and it can kill as we've seen. But it'd be a waste of time for someone to try and convince me that the American Media didn't have a political agenda sewn into their coverage of the covid outbreak. And a key cog in that coverage was fear mongering.

I agree.  As for the Canadian media coverage, other than one print outlet, there isn't really any politicization of it - it's largely factual reporting.  Our issue is the ineptitude of our provincial leaders.  The 6 largest provinces have all cluster fucked this.  The Northern Territories and Atlantic Provinces are the only ones taking and implementing the necessary measures, and they're the only ones that aren't increasing restrictions as the variants skyrocket.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: romdrums on April 02, 2021, 08:42:46 AM

Got my first shot of the Phizer vaccine this morning.  So far, no side effects.  Going back in 3 weeks for the second shot. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2021, 12:42:17 PM

So, after having Covid in December (first symptoms 12/12......felt like it had passed on 12/17)  I still never really felt 'right' for quite some time. While I returned to exercising.....had my sense of taste...even ran a half marathon......my body just felt 'off' for quite a while. In fact, it wasn't until this past weekend that I really noticed a difference and can say I'm feeling like 100%. Not that I felt any symptoms or anything but I could just tell I was 'off' a bit. So, that's a solid 3-1/2 months of recovery so to speak from what I believe to have been relatively mild symptoms even though there were a few days there where I was just out of it. The lingering effects weren't overtly noticeable....they just muddied everything from daily energy to the effort you need to mentally operate.

Anyone else who has had covid felt or feeling that way? Has it passed and how long do you think it took you for a full recovery?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Evermind on April 02, 2021, 12:54:17 PM

I'm still feeling off a bit. Red meat tastes funny to me, and the cigarette smoke from people on streets also smells off. I can say I'm better with the physical activities than I was in February though, although I still get tired more quickly than I used to.

Or I dunno, maybe that's just me approaching my 30s.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Herrick on April 02, 2021, 03:07:30 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2021, 12:42:17 PM

So, after having Covid in December (first symptoms 12/12......felt like it had passed on 12/17)  I still never really felt 'right' for quite some time. While I returned to exercising.....had my sense of taste...even ran a half marathon......my body just felt 'off' for quite a while. In fact, it wasn't until this past weekend that I really noticed a difference and can say I'm feeling like 100%. Not that I felt any symptoms or anything but I could just tell I was 'off' a bit. So, that's a solid 3-1/2 months of recovery so to speak from what I believe to have been relatively mild symptoms even though there were a few days there where I was just out of it. The lingering effects weren't overtly noticeable....they just muddied everything from daily energy to the effort you need to mentally operate.

Anyone else who has had covid felt or feeling that way? Has it passed and how long do you think it took you for a full recovery?

I had it last April. For months I felt more tired than usual. I don't really remember when I started feeling back to normal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 02, 2021, 03:14:09 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2021, 12:42:17 PM

So, after having Covid in December (first symptoms 12/12......felt like it had passed on 12/17)  I still never really felt 'right' for quite some time. While I returned to exercising.....had my sense of taste...even ran a half marathon......my body just felt 'off' for quite a while. In fact, it wasn't until this past weekend that I really noticed a difference and can say I'm feeling like 100%. Not that I felt any symptoms or anything but I could just tell I was 'off' a bit. So, that's a solid 3-1/2 months of recovery so to speak from what I believe to have been relatively mild symptoms even though there were a few days there where I was just out of it. The lingering effects weren't overtly noticeable....they just muddied everything from daily energy to the effort you need to mentally operate.

Anyone else who has had covid felt or feeling that way? Has it passed and how long do you think it took you for a full recovery?

I recall reading an article that talked about getting the vaccine (both doses) helped 'long-haulers' (not that you'd fall into that category) with their ongoing symptoms.  Maybe that's part of it too??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 02, 2021, 03:32:36 PM

I've never been confirmed positive, but I certainly believe I had covid in February of 2020, one of many reasons is because of the long term tiredness I had.  I don't specifically recall when it went away, but after my terrible cold like symptoms that last for 2 weeks, the tiredness lasted for months.  I could all be in my head, this was before you were able to get a test and my main symptoms were before they even said covid was in the US.  But going to 9 concerts before March 10th in major cities in the Northeast (NYC, Brooklyn, Philly) it's really entirely possible.  Oh and my coworker got very bad flu symptoms shortly after me that lasted a long time, also wasn't able to get a test then so we'll never truly know. I've actually never asked him about long term effects since that was essentially the last time we worked together in the office.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2021, 04:28:13 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 02, 2021, 03:14:09 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2021, 12:42:17 PM

So, after having Covid in December (first symptoms 12/12......felt like it had passed on 12/17)  I still never really felt 'right' for quite some time. While I returned to exercising.....had my sense of taste...even ran a half marathon......my body just felt 'off' for quite a while. In fact, it wasn't until this past weekend that I really noticed a difference and can say I'm feeling like 100%. Not that I felt any symptoms or anything but I could just tell I was 'off' a bit. So, that's a solid 3-1/2 months of recovery so to speak from what I believe to have been relatively mild symptoms even though there were a few days there where I was just out of it. The lingering effects weren't overtly noticeable....they just muddied everything from daily energy to the effort you need to mentally operate.

Anyone else who has had covid felt or feeling that way? Has it passed and how long do you think it took you for a full recovery?

I recall reading an article that talked about getting the vaccine (both doses) helped 'long-haulers' (not that you'd fall into that category) with their ongoing symptoms.  Maybe that's part of it too??

That’s interesting. I guess I’ll never know but it certainly could be the case.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 02, 2021, 04:47:38 PM

https://t.co/rJ4bdawgik?amp=1  This new report explains how Zero Covid Strategy (meaning implementing wider and stricter lockdown measures right at the start, instead of trying to mitigate as cases rise)  is actually better for the economy in the long run as well as saving lives.

At 28 pages it is kind of dense but there is a twitter thread written by pandemic researcher with 15 years of experience summarizing the key points:
https://twitter.com/yaneerbaryam/status/1377731860630007809

and an earlier thread from a few months ago explaning the different approaches
https://twitter.com/yaneerbaryam/status/1338120658534842368

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 03, 2021, 07:37:54 PM

One Pfizer shot down, one to go in three weeks.  :coolio :coolio

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 03, 2021, 09:26:16 PM

I got my first shot today too.  Despite my post a few days ago, I kept trying and found a bunch of openings yesterday at Walgreens.  One of them disappeared just as I tried to book it so I took the next time slow open for today.  Just marked down that I met my county's requirements and it let me take it. 

That feels like Walgreen's version of "shhh, if you want a shot, we're not going to rat you out...we'd rather give you the shot than make you wait for weeks or months."  I feel much less anxious and stressed out.  It's depressing not being able to find an appointment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 03, 2021, 09:30:35 PM

I got lucky.  I got a text from my younger brother around 3 pm that he was volunteering downtown at America's Center where they were doing them by appointment all day and then had enough to offer them to the general public to anyone who came in by 5:30 pm, so my brother texted me and my older brother right away and I jumped in my car and got there quickly and got the shot (my older brother was busy with his kids and could not break away to go spur of the moment like that).  I hate driving in downtown STL, but it was worth it. Back for the second shot in three weeks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 04, 2021, 08:16:33 AM

Wow.  My arm is fairly sore this morning, much more than when I get my flu shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 04, 2021, 08:57:47 AM

My arm is a little sore right around the area where they gave me the shot, but otherwise all is good.  2nd shot is the one they say might make you feel crappy, so it's good that I will get that one on a Saturday as well since I won't work again till Monday, so I have the rest of that day and all of Sunday to feel blah.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 04, 2021, 02:12:03 PM

My arm hurt for a good five days after the second one. Way worse that the flu shot for sure

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: zerogravityfat on April 04, 2021, 08:44:35 PM

lucky bastards, it's practically impossible to get an app in nj. nyc is getting a ton and nj is far behind. i work in nyc but don't qualify for any headers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 05, 2021, 06:01:52 AM

Tomorrow I get my second shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 06:16:22 AM

I'll have to read back in this thread but I'm very curious how bad it was for people who got the 2nd Pfizer shot. I get mine on Sunday and hope I don't have to call in sick at work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 05, 2021, 06:18:26 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 05, 2021, 06:01:52 AM

Tomorrow I get my second shot.

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F945.gif&hash=ac7fda9a79245bfcffb5e5188a7be37d6095a8e9)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 05, 2021, 06:48:54 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 06:16:22 AM

I'll have to read back in this thread but I'm very curious how bad it was for people who got the 2nd Pfizer shot. I get mine on Sunday and hope I don't have to call in sick at work.

I had a sore arm, nothing else. This was the experience for most of my family as well, only my neice got other effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on April 05, 2021, 07:04:52 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 05, 2021, 06:48:54 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 06:16:22 AM

I'll have to read back in this thread but I'm very curious how bad it was for people who got the 2nd Pfizer shot. I get mine on Sunday and hope I don't have to call in sick at work.

I had a sore arm, nothing else. This was the experience for most of my family as well, only my neice got other effects.

I had pretty much zero side effects for both Pfizer shots.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 05, 2021, 07:16:56 AM

Quote from: zerogravityfat on April 04, 2021, 08:44:35 PM

lucky bastards, it's practically impossible to get an app in nj. nyc is getting a ton and nj is far behind. i work in nyc but don't qualify for any headers.

There are places in the city (Javit Center for example) that you could get the shot if you work in NYC, even if you don't live here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 05, 2021, 07:22:25 AM

Quote from: zerogravityfat on April 04, 2021, 08:44:35 PM

lucky bastards, it's practically impossible to get an app in nj. nyc is getting a ton and nj is far behind. i work in nyc but don't qualify for any headers.

I've been starting to check more regularly in Central Jersey... and nothing is available.  However, South Jersey is like all open if you're willing to drive down there.  Someone I know made a 90 minute one way drive down south to get one last week.  I saw on twitter like all of Atlantic County has appointments.  I'm not really looking to do that personally, especially since you'll have to do it again in a few weeks.  I'm just patiently waiting to do it locally. It'll happen soon enough.  Record number of vaccines injected Saturday (4.1M).

My older sister and her husband are both fully vaccinated, no side effects for either. They were the most cautious and it was nice to see them and the rest of my siblings yesterday for the first time since Christmas.  I even went out to a bar on Saturday here in NJ.  It definitely feels like things are slowly but surely getting better here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 05, 2021, 07:31:22 AM

Quote from: eric42434224 on April 05, 2021, 07:04:52 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 05, 2021, 06:48:54 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 06:16:22 AM

I'll have to read back in this thread but I'm very curious how bad it was for people who got the 2nd Pfizer shot. I get mine on Sunday and hope I don't have to call in sick at work.

I had a sore arm, nothing else. This was the experience for most of my family as well, only my neice got other effects.

I had pretty much zero side effects for both Pfizer shots.

I love my wife, but she's definitely a glass-half-empty person.  I've heard every story within 90 miles of the severity of reactions to the second shot for both Pfizer and Moderna.  It's refreshing to hear the stories where it was nonexistent or not so bad.   I'm more of a optimistic realist; I know it's possible, but I'm going to hope for the best.  In any event, I can't control it one way or the others, so there's that....   I had one day of tired, mild aches and a little nausea after the first shot (Moderna) so we'll see.    (And I'm not 1000% sure the nausea was related to the shot).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 05, 2021, 07:32:11 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 05, 2021, 07:22:25 AM

Quote from: zerogravityfat on April 04, 2021, 08:44:35 PM

lucky bastards, it's practically impossible to get an app in nj. nyc is getting a ton and nj is far behind. i work in nyc but don't qualify for any headers.

I've been starting to check more regularly in Central Jersey... and nothing is available.  However, South Jersey is like all open if you're willing to drive down there.  Someone I know made a 90 minute one way drive down south to get one last week.  I saw on twitter like all of Atlantic County has appointments.  I'm not really looking to do that personally, especially since you'll have to do it again in a few weeks.  I'm just patiently waiting to do it locally. It'll happen soon enough.  Record number of vaccines injected Saturday (4.1M).

My brother and his wife drove 5 hours, all the way across Illinois, to a small town that has an overabundance of vaccine doses.  It's the Johnson & Johnson shot, so it's just one and done, with no need to go back.  Rural areas in the state have too many doses and not enough people are wanting to get vaccinated there ( ::)). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 05, 2021, 07:43:20 AM

If I were in a risk group and had access to J&J I'd be more open to a long drive to get a shot to get it sooner

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 05, 2021, 07:57:03 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 06:16:22 AM

I'll have to read back in this thread but I'm very curious how bad it was for people who got the 2nd Pfizer shot. I get mine on Sunday and hope I don't have to call in sick at work.

I had chills, aches and nausea after the second Pfizer shot which started about 12 hours after the shot, lasted about 24 hours and then I was good to go. My wife had a similar reaction but it didn’t last as long for her.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 09:32:02 AM

Thank you everyone for the feedback.  I really appreciate it. I understand that the reactions are going to vary wildly and no two people have the same exact immune response. In my inner circle of family and friends, the consensus has been that young people (20-40s) almost all were wiped out when they got the 2nd shot (Pfizer or Moderna) the older parents/grandparents group >60y pretty much had nothing apart from mild soreness and aches.

All anecdotal of course so I wanted to hear everyone's experience.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 05, 2021, 01:15:49 PM

Quote from: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 06:16:22 AM

I'll have to read back in this thread but I'm very curious how bad it was for people who got the 2nd Pfizer shot. I get mine on Sunday and hope I don't have to call in sick at work.

I think I had a headache or two the day after but they passed very quickly and were not bad at all. Keep in mind I had Covid in December so I'm not sure how that affected my lack of symptoms with both shots?? But I had zero side effects with getting the vaccine outside of those quick hit headaches.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 05, 2021, 01:24:47 PM

Getting my first shot at 10am tomorrow  :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 06, 2021, 08:06:43 AM

My first shot is scheduled for Thursday afternoon.  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 06, 2021, 08:08:04 AM

Good luck to both of you,

I'm getting my second tomorrow  :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 08:10:37 AM

Actually, I canceled the appointment for this morning because my wife scheduled herself yesterday at the CVS vaccination clinic a few blocks from where we live and she's getting the J&J vaccine, which is my strong preference, so I just applied to get that one at the same location.  I should have my appointment booked by the end of the day today.  One day isn't going to make much difference in my life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 06, 2021, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 05, 2021, 09:32:02 AM

Thank you everyone for the feedback.  I really appreciate it. I understand that the reactions are going to vary wildly and no two people have the same exact immune response. In my inner circle of family and friends, the consensus has been that young people (20-40s) almost all were wiped out when they got the 2nd shot (Pfizer or Moderna) the older parents/grandparents group >60y pretty much had nothing apart from mild soreness and aches.

All anecdotal of course so I wanted to hear everyone's experience.

The only one in my circle who has got any shots so far is my moter (83 years).
She got Moderna with very little side effects on shot onr but was really cold and tired for a couple of days after the second shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 11:32:19 AM

(https://media.socastsrm.com/wordpress/wp-content/blogs.dir/2326/files/2021/04/2021-04-05t210844z-1-lynxmpeh34102-rtroptp-4-baseball-mlb-tex-tor-scaled-e1617658040523.jpg)

Well the Texas Rangers game was a large crowd.

I don't know how I feel about it.  I'm happy people were able to experience something like this and I think outdoor events in warm weather are mostly safe.  However, it just seems a bit too fast to go to 40k attendance and we all know people are going to crowd in the corridors for concessions and restrooms.  I guess we will see in time if it makes a difference in the numbers.  If I was fully vaccinated, I'd be open to going to such an event though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

I know how I feel about it.  We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases.  I won't be at all surprised if we see a substantial spike in cases and hospitalizations down there in Texas in about 2 to 4 weeks.  I totally get it that people are growing very fatigued with the restrictions but I can't help but feel that doing this was some pretty stupid shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 06, 2021, 11:54:48 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

I know how I feel about it.  We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases.  I won't be at all surprised if we see a substantial spike in cases and hospitalizations down there in Texas in about 2 to 4 weeks.  I totally get it that people are growing very fatigued with the restrictions but I can't help but feel that doing this was some pretty stupid shit.

Indeed..... if they did not do iit like the concert in Barcelona where everyone had to take a test the same day as the event and if you are positive you don't get to go and loose your money.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 06, 2021, 11:58:00 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

I know how I feel about it.  We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases.  I won't be at all surprised if we see a substantial spike in cases and hospitalizations down there in Texas in about 2 to 4 weeks.  I totally get it that people are growing very fatigued with the restrictions but I can't help but feel that doing this was some pretty stupid shit.

I'm pretty sure the Surge of positive immigrants are also, not helping the case count. How the hell are they counting those, and where are they classifying them as, A Mexican Case or a Texas case?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 06, 2021, 11:58:49 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

I know how I feel about it.  We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases.  I won't be at all surprised if we see a substantial spike in cases and hospitalizations down there in Texas in about 2 to 4 weeks.  I totally get it that people are growing very fatigued with the restrictions but I can't help but feel that doing this was some pretty stupid shit.

I am in complete agreement!

On a side note, now that we have been fully vaccinated for over 3 weeks, I have actually ditched the mask because data is starting to show that fully vaccinated people most likely cannot transmit the virus. However, I still carry it with me and if a store or individual requires or asks that I wear one then I will happily oblige.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 06, 2021, 12:00:17 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 06, 2021, 11:58:49 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

I know how I feel about it.  We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases.  I won't be at all surprised if we see a substantial spike in cases and hospitalizations down there in Texas in about 2 to 4 weeks.  I totally get it that people are growing very fatigued with the restrictions but I can't help but feel that doing this was some pretty stupid shit.

I am in complete agreement!

On a side note, now that we have been fully vaccinated for over 3 weeks, I have actually ditched the mask because data is starting to show that fully vaccinated people most likely cannot transmit the virus. However, I still carry it with me and if a store or individual requires or asks that I wear one then I will happily oblige.

Is the for the new strains too or just the current strain?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 06, 2021, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 06, 2021, 12:00:17 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 06, 2021, 11:58:49 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

I know how I feel about it.  We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases.  I won't be at all surprised if we see a substantial spike in cases and hospitalizations down there in Texas in about 2 to 4 weeks.  I totally get it that people are growing very fatigued with the restrictions but I can't help but feel that doing this was some pretty stupid shit.

I am in complete agreement!

On a side note, now that we have been fully vaccinated for over 3 weeks, I have actually ditched the mask because data is starting to show that fully vaccinated people most likely cannot transmit the virus. However, I still carry it with me and if a store or individual requires or asks that I wear one then I will happily oblige.

Is the for the new strains too or just the current strain?

The data shows that the vaccines are effective with the new strains

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 06, 2021, 12:06:37 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 06, 2021, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 06, 2021, 12:00:17 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 06, 2021, 11:58:49 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

I know how I feel about it.  We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases.  I won't be at all surprised if we see a substantial spike in cases and hospitalizations down there in Texas in about 2 to 4 weeks.  I totally get it that people are growing very fatigued with the restrictions but I can't help but feel that doing this was some pretty stupid shit.

I am in complete agreement!

On a side note, now that we have been fully vaccinated for over 3 weeks, I have actually ditched the mask because data is starting to show that fully vaccinated people most likely cannot transmit the virus. However, I still carry it with me and if a store or individual requires or asks that I wear one then I will happily oblige.

Is the for the new strains too or just the current strain?

The data shows that the vaccines are effective with the new strains

Is this the data?

Quote

The research has helped lead to the emergency use authorization of Eli Lilly and Regeneron medications used to help COVID patients

Quote

“You know initially when the COVID trials went on, we thought we would be done and have great therapeutics by January or February. Clearly that’s not the case. The trials are still on-going. With every new strain there will be new drugs tested,” she said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/data-shows-covid-treatment-drugs-effective-against-new-strains/ar-BB1dkNfV


Because that's for a new treatment and not for the current vaccines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 06, 2021, 12:09:36 PM

Then there's this...

Quote

. At this time, there is no evidence to suggest that these or any other variants of the COVID-19 virus are resistant to the current vaccines. The key points are:

https://www.umms.org/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/facts/strain

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 06, 2021, 12:20:35 PM

Just in.. If hospitalizations continue to decrease and enough vaccine is available for everyone, California is going to lift all restrictions on June 15th, except the mask mandate.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 12:24:33 PM

Are they still trying to recall the governor there?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 06, 2021, 12:31:40 PM

I got my information over the weeks from various news organizations while listening to the radio but particularly NPR.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 12:31:52 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 11:48:59 AM

We are nowhere even remotely close to herd immunity yet with only about 20% of the population vaccinated so this is just inviting a surge in cases. 

I've stated this before, but I don't agree with this statement.  We are quickly approaching it.  We aren't there yet, but herd immunity isn't just a switch on when we reach a certain %.  It gradually happens as we approach that % which the deaths/hospitalizations actually show. 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-pace-1st-major-country-140431537.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-pace-1st-major-country-140431537.html)

Quote

As of Monday, Bloomberg's COVID-19 vaccine tracker showed that with over 3 million doses being administered in the U.S. on average each day, at this rate, it should take three more months to cover 75 percent of the population. That will be a key milestone considering Dr. Anthony Fauci has said achieving herd immunity should require vaccinating somewhere between 70 and 85 percent of the population, Bloomberg notes.

Also, we are currently at ~32% with at least one shot.  One shot is highly effective.  Add in all the people already infected and we could already be at 50% with some immunity in the US.  My projection was herd immunity by ~Memorial Day.  The current data of just using vaccinations say ~ 4th of July.  Without knowing the full % who had an infection and/or have natural immunity, 4th of July may be the safe bet, but I still believe we are much closer than we realize. 

Quote from: lonestar on April 06, 2021, 12:20:35 PM

Just in.. If hospitalizations continue to decrease and enough vaccine is available for everyone, California is going to lift all restrictions on June 15th, except the mask mandate.

and hence, I don't have an issue of this.  That date is between my speculated date and the current vaccinate rate of when herd immunity could be reached.  And of course the stipulation of the data still showing this trend.  While I expect it to continue, it's certainly possible things change (mutations, vaccines shipment delays..)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 12:56:25 PM

I would say there is a less than zero chance of herd immunity in 60 days.  Not gonna happen. 


MAYBE by September.


MAYBE


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 06, 2021, 01:10:52 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 12:24:33 PM

Are they still trying to recall the governor there?

Of course they are... They fucking hate Newsom. He could pass out c-notes daily and they'd still hate him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 06, 2021, 02:17:30 PM

Well, here's hoping that #2 doesn't make me feel like...er...#2.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 02:25:39 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 12:56:25 PM

I would say there is a less than zero chance of herd immunity in 60 days.  Not gonna happen. 


MAYBE by September.


MAYBE


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

This article is on a global scale, which I agree, will take well into 2022 and even by then, with mutations and hesitancy to take vaccines, we are likely to see this become an endemic.  The article I linked also stated this for the global scale.  But the reality, is, covid likely won't be an emergency issue in the US come this summer based on current projections and current efficacy of the vaccines.  The rest of the world, sadly, is not on the same projection yet. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 06, 2021, 02:28:39 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 06, 2021, 01:10:52 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 12:24:33 PM

Are they still trying to recall the governor there?

Of course they are... They fucking hate Newsom. He could pass out c-notes daily and they'd still hate him.

Why?  From over here on the right (as in direction) coast, he seems to be everything a Californian would want?  And I'm not being snarky; it's a sincere question. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 02:39:12 PM

Stadler - there's a pretty good -and even-handed- explanation here:
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/explainer-california-gov-newsom-facing-recall-76517979 (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/explainer-california-gov-newsom-facing-recall-76517979)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 02:41:02 PM

It's worth pointing out, though, that in California, Newsom's party outnumbers the other party almost 2 to 1. 


I don't think they'll succeed.

Primarily because of the numbers but also because they don't have a charismatic movie star like the Governator to run against him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 06, 2021, 03:30:13 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 06, 2021, 02:28:39 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 06, 2021, 01:10:52 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 06, 2021, 12:24:33 PM

Are they still trying to recall the governor there?

Of course they are... They fucking hate Newsom. He could pass out c-notes daily and they'd still hate him.

Why?  From over here on the right (as in direction) coast, he seems to be everything a Californian would want?  And I'm not being snarky; it's a sincere question.

The whole central valley is basically Trump country. So, even though we're a blue state, I'd gather a good 10 million plus are red, and they despise Newsom. The recall effort only needed 1.5 million signatures, so it was easy to get on. It won't pass, at least I don't think it will. Personally, I think Newsom is a douche, a prototypical politician, but now is not the time to upend the apple cart. (also a GOP governor would be fucking useless here with a democratic supermajority in our house)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

The major difference is the Rangers game is outdoors.  I think that's important as we really don't have many examples of super spreader events from the outdoors.  Not justifying the Rangers, just pointing out that it's different than a indoor bar. 

also this:

Quote

The Illinois public health department discovered one of the customers who attended the event was asymptomatic but received a confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis the day before attending.

 :facepalm: I have no issue calling this person an idiot and honestly kind of feel this person should have some legal repercussions for knowingly going out socially with covid, especially to a bar where you'll have your mask down to drink.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 06, 2021, 04:56:02 PM

2nd shot in the books.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: illusionist on April 06, 2021, 05:26:25 PM

More than a year,and 230 pages later,i hope we at least have connected the virus with the exploitation of animals.
If we haven't yet made the connection,i am afraid we will soon re-live this nightmare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 06, 2021, 05:40:49 PM

I don't think there is a connection to be made.  But I'm also not entirely sure what you mean either.  Care to elaborate?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 06, 2021, 07:08:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

The major difference is the Rangers game is outdoors.  I think that's important as we really don't have many examples of super spreader events from the outdoors.  Not justifying the Rangers, just pointing out that it's different than a indoor bar. 

Agreed on he last part, but wasn’t Sturgis assumed to be a cause for thousands of cases nationally?  Also, every single Trump rally. (Only 1/2 joking)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 08:43:25 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 06, 2021, 07:08:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

The major difference is the Rangers game is outdoors.  I think that's important as we really don't have many examples of super spreader events from the outdoors.  Not justifying the Rangers, just pointing out that it's different than a indoor bar. 

Agreed on he last part, but wasn’t Sturgis assumed to be a cause for thousands of cases nationally?  Also, every single Trump rally. (Only 1/2 joking)

Sturgis is a bit more close company than a baseball game, plus vaccinations in effect now vs then.  Sturgis was outdoors but also a mulitday festival with an older crowd camping in close quarters. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 06, 2021, 10:13:09 PM

12 hours later, still feeling fine...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 07, 2021, 05:18:12 AM

Second shot.  Low grade fever aches and a headache. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 07, 2021, 05:28:21 AM

Had my second shot of Pfizer yesterday. No symptoms whatsoever. Good to go!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 07, 2021, 05:39:06 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 07, 2021, 05:28:21 AM

Had my second shot of Pfizer yesterday. No symptoms whatsoever. Good to go!

I got mine on a Tuesday, and then Friday morning, I was in a total malaise. I was at work, so I had to push through it, but I was out of it. My wife had a half day spell of fogginess, and my 18 y/o became quite tired for a couple of days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:35:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 06, 2021, 07:08:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

The major difference is the Rangers game is outdoors.  I think that's important as we really don't have many examples of super spreader events from the outdoors.  Not justifying the Rangers, just pointing out that it's different than a indoor bar. 

Agreed on he last part, but wasn’t Sturgis assumed to be a cause for thousands of cases nationally?  Also, every single Trump rally. (Only 1/2 joking)

Ass.  You.  Me.  That's sort of the problem here generally (not with you, not with this forum).  The CDC is now saying that surficial contact is a far lower risk of transmission than previously thought.  That's good, of course, but it goes to show that "assumptions" and "common sense" have no place in the combat of a global pandemic.  Actual facts do.

And as for Trump, at various times his rallies were assumed to be the cause of:
- Covid spreading
- Racism
- Swelling unemployment
- Swelling of the perineum
- Shortness of breath
- Nausea
- Vomiting
- Increased cholesterol
- Decreased sales of Dream Theater's latest album
- That scar on Ed Sheeran's lip
- The relative failure of the DC universe movies
- The rise of unreturned carts to the corral
- Kowtowboy's pessimism
- Brian Johnson' hearing loss
- The lack of proper salute to Eddie Van Halen at the Grammy's
- Patrick Mahomes failing to repeat
- Severe thunderstorms in the Southeast
- The lack of treasure found on Oak Island

And that's only a partial list!  Consult your doctor!   I'm kidding of course (at least with some of them; I think Patrick Mahomes has a solid case).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:41:26 AM

I referenced the surface-contact data above; here are the links.  Fascinating how the news outlets cover this.   Local news?  Factual, presenting the information for us to decide for ourselves (https://www.winknews.com/2021/04/06/cdc-says-surface-contact-is-low-cause-of-covid-19-spread-updates-guidance/).  And this (no, it's not the Fox Cable News Channel, but a local Fox affiliate.) (https://www.fox29.com/news/cdc-theres-1-in-10000-chance-of-getting-covid-from-surfaces)

MSNBC? Sensationalism, finger-pointing, and antagonism (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/06/the-cdc-should-have-updated-its-surface-cleaning-guidelines-much-sooner-dr-ashish-jha-says.html).  It's maddening; the government did too much, the government didn't do enough...  when are we going to let it sink in that the government is a blunt instrument?   

EDIT:  I didn't post this to be contrarian, or to (necessarily) point fingers.  I posted this because this is how many of us get our information.  This is what's fueling our general, popular responses.   When the information we get is sensationalized, I think, so too are our reactions to that information.   We need - I believe - calm, pragmatic information and we can and should respond calmly and pragmatically.   This is a problem, IMO, that goes well beyond COVID.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 07, 2021, 07:41:52 AM

Second shot yesterday afternoon at 3:15.  Hurt a hell of a lot more than the first one, which I barely felt.  Been hurting ever since, including overnight which made it hard to sleep (I mostly lay on my left side, and the shot was in that arm, so I couldn't).  So now it's 8:30 in the morning, and I'm trying to figure out if I feel shitty because of the shot, or because I didn't sleep very well.  I might call in to work and go back to bed either way.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 07, 2021, 07:54:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:35:59 AM

And as for Trump, at various times his rallies were assumed to be the cause of:
- Covid spreading
- Racism
- Swelling unemployment
- Swelling of the perineum
- Shortness of breath
- Brian Johnson' hearing loss

Sure but....as soon as Biden is elected guess what?.. A new AC/DC album is released!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 07, 2021, 08:22:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 07, 2021, 07:54:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:35:59 AM

And as for Trump, at various times his rallies were assumed to be the cause of:
- Covid spreading
- Racism
- Swelling unemployment
- Swelling of the perineum
- Shortness of breath
- Brian Johnson' hearing loss

Sure but....as soon as Biden is elected guess what?.. A new AC/DC album is released!

#facts

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 07, 2021, 08:23:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:35:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 06, 2021, 07:08:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

The major difference is the Rangers game is outdoors.  I think that's important as we really don't have many examples of super spreader events from the outdoors.  Not justifying the Rangers, just pointing out that it's different than a indoor bar. 

Agreed on he last part, but wasn’t Sturgis assumed to be a cause for thousands of cases nationally?  Also, every single Trump rally. (Only 1/2 joking)

Ass.  You.  Me.  That's sort of the problem here generally (not with you, not with this forum).  The CDC is now saying that surficial contact is a far lower risk of transmission than previously thought. 

That's true, but the problems with Sturgis and Trump rallies had nothing to do with surficial content.  It had to do with thousands of people in close proximity, no social distancing, and no masks.  The fact that they were mostly outdoors was kind of canceled out by the people being stacked on top of each other.  Which is the case with the Texas Rangers game, as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 08:54:45 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 07, 2021, 08:23:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:35:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 06, 2021, 07:08:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

The major difference is the Rangers game is outdoors.  I think that's important as we really don't have many examples of super spreader events from the outdoors.  Not justifying the Rangers, just pointing out that it's different than a indoor bar. 

Agreed on he last part, but wasn’t Sturgis assumed to be a cause for thousands of cases nationally?  Also, every single Trump rally. (Only 1/2 joking)

Ass.  You.  Me.  That's sort of the problem here generally (not with you, not with this forum).  The CDC is now saying that surficial contact is a far lower risk of transmission than previously thought. 

That's true, but the problems with Sturgis and Trump rallies had nothing to do with surficial content.  It had to do with thousands of people in close proximity, no social distancing, and no masks.  The fact that they were mostly outdoors was kind of canceled out by the people being stacked on top of each other.  Which is the case with the Texas Rangers game, as well.

No argument; I was going for something more general about "facts" versus "common sense".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 07, 2021, 09:55:01 AM

No arguments here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 07, 2021, 10:45:20 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 07, 2021, 08:22:00 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 07, 2021, 07:54:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:35:59 AM

And as for Trump, at various times his rallies were assumed to be the cause of:
- Covid spreading
- Racism
- Swelling unemployment
- Swelling of the perineum
- Shortness of breath
- Brian Johnson' hearing loss

Sure but....as soon as Biden is elected guess what?.. A new AC/DC album is released!

#facts

 :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2021, 11:14:55 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:35:59 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 06, 2021, 07:08:16 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 06, 2021, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 06, 2021, 03:50:30 PM

I mean, the Rangers can't possibly expect anything bad to happen with that many people, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/05/covid-cdc-study-finds-illinois-bar-event-linked-outbreak-46-cases/7091773002/

The major difference is the Rangers game is outdoors.  I think that's important as we really don't have many examples of super spreader events from the outdoors.  Not justifying the Rangers, just pointing out that it's different than a indoor bar. 

Agreed on he last part, but wasn’t Sturgis assumed to be a cause for thousands of cases nationally?  Also, every single Trump rally. (Only 1/2 joking)

Ass.  You.  Me.  That's sort of the problem here generally (not with you, not with this forum).  The CDC is now saying that surficial contact is a far lower risk of transmission than previously thought.  That's good, of course, but it goes to show that "assumptions" and "common sense" have no place in the combat of a global pandemic.  Actual facts do.

And as for Trump, at various times his rallies were assumed to be the cause of:
- Covid spreading
- Racism
- Swelling unemployment
- Swelling of the perineum
- Shortness of breath
- Nausea
- Vomiting
- Increased cholesterol
- Decreased sales of Dream Theater's latest album
- That scar on Ed Sheeran's lip
- The relative failure of the DC universe movies
- The rise of unreturned carts to the corral
- Kowtowboy's pessimism
- Brian Johnson' hearing loss
- The lack of proper salute to Eddie Van Halen at the Grammy's
- Patrick Mahomes failing to repeat
- Severe thunderstorms in the Southeast
- The lack of treasure found on Oak Island

And that's only a partial list!  Consult your doctor!   I'm kidding of course (at least with some of them; I think Patrick Mahomes has a solid case).

Don't forget what they assumed about Texas. And are now assuming with the MLB game that was fully packed.

It's why I have a problem with assumptions, and these assumptions taken as fact, and then used to manipulate the people into fear for their lives.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2021, 11:22:18 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 07, 2021, 07:41:26 AM

I referenced the surface-contact data above; here are the links.  Fascinating how the news outlets cover this.   Local news?  Factual, presenting the information for us to decide for ourselves (https://www.winknews.com/2021/04/06/cdc-says-surface-contact-is-low-cause-of-covid-19-spread-updates-guidance/).  And this (no, it's not the Fox Cable News Channel, but a local Fox affiliate.) (https://www.fox29.com/news/cdc-theres-1-in-10000-chance-of-getting-covid-from-surfaces)

MSNBC? Sensationalism, finger-pointing, and antagonism (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/06/the-cdc-should-have-updated-its-surface-cleaning-guidelines-much-sooner-dr-ashish-jha-says.html).  It's maddening; the government did too much, the government didn't do enough...  when are we going to let it sink in that the government is a blunt instrument?   

EDIT:  I didn't post this to be contrarian, or to (necessarily) point fingers.  I posted this because this is how many of us get our information.  This is what's fueling our general, popular responses.   When the information we get is sensationalized, I think, so too are our reactions to that information.   We need - I believe - calm, pragmatic information and we can and should respond calmly and pragmatically.   This is a problem, IMO, that goes well beyond COVID.

This is my issue with how they are pushing the vaccine, without first admitting that it's not even approved by the FDA. It's only approved for Emergency Use. So what if there is no emergency anymore? Does this mean the vaccines can't be administered because they aren't approved and need that Emergency Use to be administered?

Are these assumptions, the cause to extend the emergency orders that were placed, as once the emergency is not an emergency these orders are not to be followed, because they are not law.

And this isn't a COVID problem, it's more than that, and COVID just exposed it a lot more to people, because no one knows, and they are getting caught in their assumptions and use of them to manipulate and get people to obey.

I know how vaccines work and that they are beneficial. It's the rollout and how that bothers me. And why, I am stepping back, and waiting it out, because based on the Data, I should be fine. I of course, know, and remember, what they have always told us...Not to go anywhere if you are sick, even to work. The hypocrisy of businesses making you go to work when you were sick and not caring about your health, to now suddenly caring about your health, that they may require a vaccine before you work, is pretty damned fascinating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 07, 2021, 11:28:28 AM

Ya know, shortly after I posted with the word "assumed", I knew it was gonna be carved up  :biggrin:.  So, let me adjust my wording ... Wasn't it FOUND that Sturgis was a source of outbreaks across the country.  Oh that's right... yes, it was.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-south-dakota-covid-19-outbreak-minnesota-study/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/how-the-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-may-have-spread-coronavirus-across-the-upper-midwest/ar-BB1a7VkP

Regarding Trump rallies, there was the ACB super-spreader event.  And (not official peer-reviewed studies, but these represent more than an assumption)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/29/health/covid-trump-rallies-counties-cases/index.html
https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/16/trump-campaign-rallies-leave-a-trail-of-community-outbreaks/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-rallies-leave-trail-of-covid-spikes-in-their-wake/ar-BB1aywpO
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/31/coronavirus-trump-campaign-rallies-led-to-30000-cases-stanford-researchers-say.html

So yeah, while less risky, there is still significant risk in large gatherings outdoors.  Again, hope-to-God I'm wrong, but let's come back again May 7th and see the daily cases / deaths

Texas - 4613/94
Dallas - 379/8

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 07, 2021, 11:41:39 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 07, 2021, 11:28:28 AM

Ya know, shortly after I posted with the word "assumed", I knew it was gonna be carved up  :biggrin:.  So, let me adjust my wording ... Wasn't it FOUND that Sturgis was a source of outbreaks across the country.  Oh that's right... yes, it was.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-south-dakota-covid-19-outbreak-minnesota-study/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/how-the-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-may-have-spread-coronavirus-across-the-upper-midwest/ar-BB1a7VkP

Regarding Trump rallies, there was the ACB super-spreader event.  And (not official peer-reviewed studies, but these represent more than an assumption)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/29/health/covid-trump-rallies-counties-cases/index.html
https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/16/trump-campaign-rallies-leave-a-trail-of-community-outbreaks/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-rallies-leave-trail-of-covid-spikes-in-their-wake/ar-BB1aywpO
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/31/coronavirus-trump-campaign-rallies-led-to-30000-cases-stanford-researchers-say.html

So yeah, while less risky, there is still significant risk in large gatherings outdoors.  Again, hope-to-God I'm wrong, but let's come back again May 7th and see the daily cases / deaths

Texas - 4613/94
Dallas - 379/8

Yeah, lets come back to this again in a month.  Not to say ones right or wrong, just to see how it plays out.  I think the main difference today than Sturgis is the vaccines are in effect.  Not for everyone, but maybe, just maybe, enough to make a difference. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 07, 2021, 03:14:55 PM

Filling a stadium with over 25k people in the middle of a global pandemic of a respiratory illness is fucking stupid.  I don't care how many links people post, it's fucking stupid and irresponsible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 07, 2021, 03:23:04 PM

Can't say I disagree, but that's what happens when people catch a false sense of security from a vaccine.  I see all kinds of people without masks at the grocery store even when the establishment still mandates wearing masks.  C'mon people, the vaccine is not a cure.  Precautions still need to be maintained.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 07, 2021, 03:33:20 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 07, 2021, 03:23:04 PM

Can't say I disagree, but that's what happens when people catch a false sense of security from a vaccine.  I see all kinds of people without masks at the grocery store even when the establishment still mandates wearing masks.  C'mon people, the vaccine is not a cure.  Precautions still need to be maintained.

Not even that, most people still are not vaccinated so this why I still agree with the talking heads about continuing to wear the mask.  We aren't there yet, getting close, but not quite ready to just lift the veil and act like everything is OK.

In other news, my boss told me I could take a day off to get vaccinated if my only options are to drive 90 minutes each way to south jersey to get one.  I might take that offer.  I mean, for one, I want to get vaccinated and two, if I can get paid to do so and not have to burn vacation, even more reason.  Haven't had a chance to look, but our governor tweeted he went to Atlantic City today to get his shot and that there's availability down there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 07, 2021, 03:40:39 PM

My work is paying a $100 Vaccination Incentive to anyone getting vaccinated. Taxable of course, but whatever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zoom E on April 07, 2021, 03:55:31 PM

Got my first shot of AstraZenica yesterday. Today I have a headache and aches all over. Think it will be 16 weeks before I am able to get the second shot. Not many in Canada have had their first shot yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 07, 2021, 05:26:44 PM

Welp. Fever, aches, chills & a headache.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 07, 2021, 07:10:40 PM

Ugh, as someone who gets the occasional migraine now, I would rather have almost anything minor than a headache. I can deal with a stomach ache, or nasty cold, or a little nausea, but a headache makes me want to run myself into a wall head first until I knock myself out.  :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 08, 2021, 07:03:26 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 07, 2021, 03:14:55 PM

Filling a stadium with over 25k people in the middle of a global pandemic of a respiratory illness is fucking stupid.  I don't care how many links people post, it's fucking stupid and irresponsible.

39k people I do believe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 08, 2021, 07:58:14 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 07, 2021, 03:23:04 PM

Can't say I disagree, but that's what happens when people catch a false sense of security from a vaccine.  I see all kinds of people without masks at the grocery store even when the establishment still mandates wearing masks.  C'mon people, the vaccine is not a cure.  Precautions still need to be maintained.

With the understanding that I am wearing a mask regardless because I'm that kind of person (that's not arrogance; I mean, I'm self-conscious enough that I worry what people will say, and I'm not that confrontational that I need every trip to the Home Depot to be a moral and political fist fight), I respectfully disagree, in the sense that that's the logic that basically says "masks are here to stay", because no numbers will be good enough at that point.   Most of this at this point is no longer predicated on the systemic concerns that were voiced back in April of 2020, but now seem rooted in the "but ONE is too many!" logic of so many politicized discussions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 08, 2021, 08:08:49 AM

I think masks staying to a certain extent as a custom here in the west even when they won’t be required,  would be a good thing in the long run.  If you feel a cold coming on, wear the mask when you go out to a public space, to run errands etc. I know I’ll try to do that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2021, 11:24:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 07, 2021, 03:33:20 PM

In other news, my boss told me I could take a day off to get vaccinated if my only options are to drive 90 minutes each way to south jersey to get one.  I might take that offer.  I mean, for one, I want to get vaccinated and two, if I can get paid to do so and not have to burn vacation, even more reason.  Haven't had a chance to look, but our governor tweeted he went to Atlantic City today to get his shot and that there's availability down there.

So looked into the AC mega site just now.... it's got like 1000s of openings.  WTF? Like why are all the vaccines at the bottom of the state where it's least populated? Anyway, I'm booked for Monday for the J&J.  I had the option of that or Pfizer.  One trip down south seems good to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2021, 11:37:29 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/ (https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/)

I have no idea what is in that taco bell lunch I had recently though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2021, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

I'm getting my shot tomorrow, and no, I didn't research and find out "what is actually in it". I don't know what those fancy words are, and I trust experts like doctors and chemists who have dedicated their lives to their craft. Just like I didn't research and find out exactly what was in the laxative I was just prescribed, or the microwavable breakfast sandwich I ate a few hours ago. I also didn't research what was in the bar of soap I used in the shower this morning, and I failed to get the run down on what was in the shredded mozzarella I put in an mysterious pita pocket yesterday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 08, 2021, 12:02:34 PM

haven’t gotten it yet (because Canada) but even If I researched it I don’t have the proper knowledge and context to understand most of it.  There’s people who’s job it is do that, devoted years of their lives to it so I can’t do anything but trust them, at least that’s how I see it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:06:23 PM

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2 hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

There you go.

I know what a few of those words mean, but I generally don't plan to get a PhD in chemistry before a vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:11:05 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:06:23 PM

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2 hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

There you go.

I know what a few of those words mean, but I generally don't plan to get a PhD in chemistry before a vaccine.

By comparison, an apple contains Alpha-Linolenic-Acid, Asparagine, D-Categin, Isoqurctrin, Hyperoside, Ferulic-Acid, Farnesene, Neoxathin, Phosphatidyl-Choline, Reynoutrin, Sinapic-Acid, Caffeic-Acid, Chlorogenic-Acid, P-Hydroxy-Benzoic-Acid, P-Coumaric-Acid, Avicularin, Lutein, Quercitin, Rutin, Ursolic-Acid, Protocatechuic-Acid, and Silver

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 08, 2021, 12:12:48 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

The answer is yes but being from the department of health we have been getting monthly covid updates since November where they addressed this. This is good information here - https://covidvaccine.mo.gov/facts

mRNA technology has been around for 10-15 years.

I'm curious what your point is? (Not trying to be snarky just truly curious)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 08, 2021, 12:13:21 PM

I too trust the experts to know what they mean without going out and doing a ton of post-graduate work to find out.  I didn't research the actual ingredients, but I DID ask two doctors I know and trust.  Nothing wrong with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:14:23 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:11:05 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:06:23 PM

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2 hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

There you go.

I know what a few of those words mean, but I generally don't plan to get a PhD in chemistry before a vaccine.

By comparison, an apple contains Alpha-Linolenic-Acid, Asparagine, D-Categin, Isoqurctrin, Hyperoside, Ferulic-Acid, Farnesene, Neoxathin, Phosphatidyl-Choline, Reynoutrin, Sinapic-Acid, Caffeic-Acid, Chlorogenic-Acid, P-Hydroxy-Benzoic-Acid, P-Coumaric-Acid, Avicularin, Lutein, Quercitin, Rutin, Ursolic-Acid, Protocatechuic-Acid, and Silver

God dammit, I was just about to eat an apple! NOW HOW WILL I KNOW IF IT WILL KILL ME?!?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: eric42434224 on April 08, 2021, 12:16:21 PM

It won’t kill you  :facepalm:

....but it will give you autism

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:16:21 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:14:23 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:11:05 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:06:23 PM

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2 hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

There you go.

I know what a few of those words mean, but I generally don't plan to get a PhD in chemistry before a vaccine.

By comparison, an apple contains Alpha-Linolenic-Acid, Asparagine, D-Categin, Isoqurctrin, Hyperoside, Ferulic-Acid, Farnesene, Neoxathin, Phosphatidyl-Choline, Reynoutrin, Sinapic-Acid, Caffeic-Acid, Chlorogenic-Acid, P-Hydroxy-Benzoic-Acid, P-Coumaric-Acid, Avicularin, Lutein, Quercitin, Rutin, Ursolic-Acid, Protocatechuic-Acid, and Silver

God dammit, I was just about to eat an apple! NOW HOW WILL I KNOW IF IT WILL KILL ME?!?

You might be fucked, dude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:19:35 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:16:21 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:14:23 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:11:05 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:06:23 PM

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2 hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

There you go.

I know what a few of those words mean, but I generally don't plan to get a PhD in chemistry before a vaccine.

By comparison, an apple contains Alpha-Linolenic-Acid, Asparagine, D-Categin, Isoqurctrin, Hyperoside, Ferulic-Acid, Farnesene, Neoxathin, Phosphatidyl-Choline, Reynoutrin, Sinapic-Acid, Caffeic-Acid, Chlorogenic-Acid, P-Hydroxy-Benzoic-Acid, P-Coumaric-Acid, Avicularin, Lutein, Quercitin, Rutin, Ursolic-Acid, Protocatechuic-Acid, and Silver

God dammit, I was just about to eat an apple! NOW HOW WILL I KNOW IF IT WILL KILL ME?!?

You might be fucked, dude.

My name probably doesn’t help with the whole Apple dilemma.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 08, 2021, 12:31:22 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:19:35 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:16:21 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:14:23 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2021, 12:11:05 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:06:23 PM

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2 hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

There you go.

I know what a few of those words mean, but I generally don't plan to get a PhD in chemistry before a vaccine.

By comparison, an apple contains Alpha-Linolenic-Acid, Asparagine, D-Categin, Isoqurctrin, Hyperoside, Ferulic-Acid, Farnesene, Neoxathin, Phosphatidyl-Choline, Reynoutrin, Sinapic-Acid, Caffeic-Acid, Chlorogenic-Acid, P-Hydroxy-Benzoic-Acid, P-Coumaric-Acid, Avicularin, Lutein, Quercitin, Rutin, Ursolic-Acid, Protocatechuic-Acid, and Silver

God dammit, I was just about to eat an apple! NOW HOW WILL I KNOW IF IT WILL KILL ME?!?

You might be fucked, dude.

My name probably doesn’t help with the whole Apple dilemma.

It was all Evei's fault though.  Make her take a bite first.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:48:01 PM

You’re god damn right I will!

Also my name Adami is Hebrew for My Adam. Adam (pronounced Uh-dahm) is my birth name  changed it legally before college to avoid being called Adam (American pronunciation).

I blame the vaccine. Or something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 08, 2021, 01:10:39 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

Curious if you think that knowing what is "actually in the vaccine" would make someone change their mind (either way ... to get it, or not get it)?  What does knowing the ingredients accomplish for the layperson?  Like Hunnus, I don't ask that with any snark, I'm genuinely curious of the answer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 08, 2021, 01:27:42 PM

Got my second shot yesterday at 10:22 am. 16 hours later (2:32am), woke up with a fever and body aches, couldn't sleep rest of the night. 29 hours later since the shot, fever is gone and body aches are almost gone.  :coolio

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 08, 2021, 01:31:34 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 08, 2021, 01:10:39 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

Curious if you think that knowing what is "actually in the vaccine" would make someone change their mind (either way ... to get it, or not get it)?  What does knowing the ingredients accomplish for the layperson?  Like Hunnus, I don't ask that with any snark, I'm genuinely curious of the answer.

I think there is a fair amount of concern from the minority community about that very point.   There are people that do not understand the concept of mRNA.

(There was also a funny skit on SNL last week called "Will You Take It?" where a doctor tried to convince his African American family to get the vaccine.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 08, 2021, 01:50:59 PM

Quote from: Chino on April 08, 2021, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

I'm getting my shot tomorrow, and no, I didn't research and find out "what is actually in it". I don't know what those fancy words are, and I trust experts like doctors and chemists who have dedicated their lives to their craft. Just like I didn't research and find out exactly what was in the laxative I was just prescribed, or the microwavable breakfast sandwich I ate a few hours ago. I also didn't research what was in the bar of soap I used in the shower this morning, and I failed to get the run down on what was in the shredded mozzarella I put in an mysterious pita pocket yesterday.

Yeah, all of this x 1,234,987,345,221.7

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 08, 2021, 02:07:41 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

Absolutely.  It has stuff in it which will make me much more resistant to the virus, perhaps even impervious.  Same as any other vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 08, 2021, 02:13:10 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

My buddy is a professor of surgery at the Mayo clinic. My cousin and wife are both pharmacist. They all said it's good. I trust them.

If they ever want to do a proper braised lamb, they call me. Rely on expert opinions.

Jfc man,i honestly wonder how many people the phrase 'do your own research' has killed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 08, 2021, 02:31:29 PM

None of us know what the long term effects of the vaccine may be. It was somewhat risky but I felt it was worth it. My concern is that nobody knows how long this protects us. I've read multiple and widely varying reports. We may end up needing boosters every few months. If that's the case, it adds a layer of unknown in terms of potential long-term impacts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 08, 2021, 02:33:49 PM

Where's millah when we need him?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 08, 2021, 02:34:08 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 08, 2021, 01:10:39 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

Curious if you think that knowing what is "actually in the vaccine" would make someone change their mind (either way ... to get it, or not get it)?  What does knowing the ingredients accomplish for the layperson?  Like Hunnus, I don't ask that with any snark, I'm genuinely curious of the answer.

Because people are allergic to some of those ingredients. And some are found in Shellfish that people are allergic too. It's why they need to be transparent.

And this all proves....That this is about Trust. And some do not Trust those experts. And that is due to many different reasons as to why they developed a non-trust for those experts and for vaccines, and prescription medications in general.

Quote from: lonestar on April 08, 2021, 02:13:10 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

My buddy is a professor of surgery at the Mayo clinic. My cousin and wife are both pharmacist. They all said it's good. I trust them.

If they ever want to do a proper braised lamb, they call me. Rely on expert opinions.

Jfc man,i honestly wonder how many people the phrase 'do your own research' has killed.

We can do our own research. You also have to know where to look. And whom to trust that what they are telling you is in fact truth.

See the thing is, in order to get this knowledge you need to pay for it. And most poor people do not have the means to pay for this knowledge, so they are left to Trust in experts.

And also, not many people want or are interested in learning this knowledge and spend that money on something like Liberal Arts.

This is all stuff that can be taught in school. Once High School is over, it's now up to you to find and get taught the knowledge you what to know...

But with science. You have scientists trying to prove each others theories are wrong or right all the time. And then learn that what they once knew, wasn't true at all, and it was in fact false. Their just needs to be the one scientist to do the theory and prove it. People will believe it's truth until that one person does in fact prove it's false.

Like when they found the World revolved around the Sun. Dismissing what was once known "The Sun revolved around the Earth." That was what the science was...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 08, 2021, 03:10:32 PM

Yep, some people don't trust experts.


Also, some people are fucking stupid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 03:34:46 PM

 :lol  Seems to be some confusion about the differences between an unknown substance injected into your arm and normal food that's eaten every day.  It was an honest yes or no question and all I get is a bunch of smartass, snarky fucking bullshit.  :\

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 08, 2021, 01:10:39 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

Curious if you think that knowing what is "actually in the vaccine" would make someone change their mind (either way ... to get it, or not get it)?  What does knowing the ingredients accomplish for the layperson?  Like Hunnus, I don't ask that with any snark, I'm genuinely curious of the answer.

Answering a yes or no question with another question?  Yeah, I was genuinely curious too.  No, I wasn't asking if it would change people's minds.  I was curious as to whether people actually give a fuck about what's being injected into their bodies.  Seems simple enough and yet certain people somehow feel the need to complicate the shit out of everything.

Quote from: emtee on April 08, 2021, 02:31:29 PM

None of us know what the long term effects of the vaccine may be. It was somewhat risky but I felt it was worth it. My concern is that nobody knows how long this protects us. I've read multiple and widely varying reports. We may end up needing boosters every few months. If that's the case, it adds a layer of unknown in terms of potential long-term impacts.

Thank you for pointing that out, seriously.  Those are legitimate concerns that I'm sure a lot of people have.

Quote from: lonestar on April 08, 2021, 02:13:10 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

My buddy is a professor of surgery at the Mayo clinic. My cousin and wife are both pharmacist. They all said it's good. I trust them.

If they ever want to do a proper braised lamb, they call me. Rely on expert opinions.

Jfc man,i honestly wonder how many people the phrase 'do your own research' has killed.

JFC yourself.  Believe it or not, many people out there have to be their own doctors and question everything because it could be a matter of life and death.  It depends on the individuals and their set of circumstances.  You think doing your own research and asking questions is a bad thing?  It's just the opposite.

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 08, 2021, 12:12:48 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 11:34:04 AM

Just curious about the folks here who got the vaccine.  Did you do the research and find out what is actually in the vaccine before you got it?  :justjen

The answer is yes but being from the department of health we have been getting monthly covid updates since November where they addressed this. This is good information here - https://covidvaccine.mo.gov/facts

mRNA technology has been around for 10-15 years.

I'm curious what your point is? (Not trying to be snarky just truly curious)

The point is to find out the answer to the yes or no question.  I believe you answered it.  Thank you.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 08, 2021, 03:10:32 PM

Yep, some people don't trust experts.


Also, some people are fucking stupid.

Yeah, because all experts are trustworthy. :lol  If you're equating certain people's lack of trust to being stupid, you couldn't be more wrong.  That's just flat out ignorance.  A lot of people have trust issues about many things that you don't have a goddamn clue about and you're lumping them all into one category.  Get a clue buddy boy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2021, 04:18:26 PM

Israel may have reached herd immunity https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-may-already-achieved-covid-111221763.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-may-already-achieved-covid-111221763.html) and they are the only country more vaccinated than the US although our rates of vaccination might push us ahead of them soon enough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: zerogravityfat on April 08, 2021, 06:24:17 PM

I'm getting my vaccine tomorrow, I'm super excited about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 08, 2021, 07:46:41 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 03:34:46 PM

:lol  Seems to be some confusion about the differences between an unknown substance injected into your arm and normal food that's eaten every day.  It was an honest yes or no question and all I get is a bunch of smartass, snarky fucking bullshit.  :\

Maybe when a dozen or so people respond in a similar way, the “smartass snarky bullshit” is in the question, not the responses?  Just sayin.

If you wanted legitimate dialogue, perhaps instead of dropping a troll-like grenade on the table, put some context behind the question? Especially given your current position on the pandemic and measures to combat it, surely you can comprehend that others might interpret your comment to be a little snarky itself.

Do you know the ingredients of every food and medication you ingest?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 08, 2021, 08:55:29 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 08, 2021, 07:46:41 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 03:34:46 PM

:lol  Seems to be some confusion about the differences between an unknown substance injected into your arm and normal food that's eaten every day.  It was an honest yes or no question and all I get is a bunch of smartass, snarky fucking bullshit.  :\

Maybe when a dozen or so people respond in a similar way, the “smartass snarky bullshit” is in the question, not the responses?  Just sayin.

If you wanted legitimate dialogue, perhaps instead of dropping a troll-like grenade on the table, put some context behind the question? Especially given your current position on the pandemic and measures to combat it, surely you can comprehend that others might interpret your comment to be a little snarky itself.

Do you know the ingredients of every food and medication you ingest?

...or, alternatively, how about not being the self-proclaimed Question Police and not giving snarky, smartass responses to questions you subjectively do not deem worthy? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 08, 2021, 08:56:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2021, 12:48:01 PM

Also my name Adami is Hebrew for My Adam. Adam (pronounced Uh-dahm) is my birth name  changed it legally before college to avoid being called Adam (American pronunciation).

I never knew that.  That's pretty cool.  Thanks for sharing that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 08, 2021, 10:57:26 PM

Don't forget the most important ingredient in the vaccines, the tracking microchip and the 5G transmitter.

https://twitter.com/vancityreynolds/status/1377251952304750593

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on April 09, 2021, 12:00:17 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 08, 2021, 04:18:26 PM

Israel may have reached herd immunity https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-may-already-achieved-covid-111221763.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-may-already-achieved-covid-111221763.html) and they are the only country more vaccinated than the US although our rates of vaccination might push us ahead of them soon enough.

Actually the UK and Chile are also ahead of the US: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 09, 2021, 05:23:32 AM

Even though % wise we are behind, it's because of the difference in total population. We'll get there eventually (I hope).

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/people-fully-vaccinated-covid?time=latest

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid?time=latest

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:08:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide

Yup. The general populace in the US is woefully inadequately educated in the sciences, and are incapable of even beginning to comprehend the science behind vaccines. Them making a decision based on 'their own research', while their choice, is laughable at best. I have a cursory knowledge of the sciences, and a sprinkling of introductory college science courses at a respected institution, and still can't even begin to wrap my head around exactly what the mrna vaxx does.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:08:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide

Yup. The general populace in the US is woefully inadequately educated in the sciences, and are incapable of even beginning to comprehend the science behind vaccines. Them making a decision based on 'their own research', while their choice, is laughable at best. I have a cursory knowledge of the sciences, and a sprinkling of introductory college science courses at a respected institution, and still can't even begin to wrap my head around exactly what the mrna vaxx does.

I'm staying out of this discussion mostly, but I would like to (hopefully helpfully) point out to the group that "doing your research" doesn't mean starting from scratch entirely, and CAN just mean just collecting the consensus of the experts.   Otherwise I'm calling bullshit on every person here that is concerned about global warming, since I highly doubt that anyone has taken their own climate measurements over the last 200 years, studied them for patterns, done complete regression analyses, plugged them into climate models that were no doubt constructed - and tested, empirically - themselves?   I think not.  :) :) :)

There's a middle ground of understanding that I feel is necessary to be an informed populace.  Don't get me wrong, we as Americans generally fail even that standard, and majestically at that, but still. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 09, 2021, 07:19:48 AM

Yesterday while standing in line to get my first shot, I saw this meme on RJ's facebook page and downloaded it.  And did I show it to my nurse when I sat down?  Yes I did.

(https://i.imgur.com/DhKVFRO.jpg)


We share a long, loud laugh.  Then she made me show it to the nurse next to her in the next station.

Good times.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 09, 2021, 07:34:19 AM

Quote from: ariich on April 09, 2021, 12:00:17 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 08, 2021, 04:18:26 PM

Israel may have reached herd immunity https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-may-already-achieved-covid-111221763.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-may-already-achieved-covid-111221763.html) and they are the only country more vaccinated than the US although our rates of vaccination might push us ahead of them soon enough.

Actually the UK and Chile are also ahead of the US: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Yeah, but the US is outpacing all of the above and should be ahead in a couple months according to the article I shared a page or two back.  It's all good though, it's not a competition in my mind, just nice to see the progress and the effects of it.  Israel is completely open from my understanding. Hopefully more countries like the UK, US, and Chile are soon too.  There's also a few much smaller countries doing a great job. 

I'm pretty damn excited to get my shot soon.  It's just about the 1 year anniversary of my Grandma's death from covid.  The family is gathering next weekend and I'll feel much better about going to my aunts to see all my extended family for the first time in a long time after having gotten the shot (It will be under a week so I won't be "fully vaccinated" but I'll definitely feel safer being indoors without masks).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:51:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:08:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide

Yup. The general populace in the US is woefully inadequately educated in the sciences, and are incapable of even beginning to comprehend the science behind vaccines. Them making a decision based on 'their own research', while their choice, is laughable at best. I have a cursory knowledge of the sciences, and a sprinkling of introductory college science courses at a respected institution, and still can't even begin to wrap my head around exactly what the mrna vaxx does.

I'm staying out of this discussion mostly, but I would like to (hopefully helpfully) point out to the group that "doing your research" doesn't mean starting from scratch entirely, and CAN just mean just collecting the consensus of the experts.   Otherwise I'm calling bullshit on every person here that is concerned about global warming, since I highly doubt that anyone has taken their own climate measurements over the last 200 years, studied them for patterns, done complete regression analyses, plugged them into climate models that were no doubt constructed - and tested, empirically - themselves?   I think not.  :) :) :)

There's a middle ground of understanding that I feel is necessary to be an informed populace.  Don't get me wrong, we as Americans generally fail even that standard, and majestically at that, but still.

But I do put faith in the scores of climate scientists who have done so. Again, just as your clients put faith in your legal skills, or my customers put faith in the fact that they're gonna get a bomb ass meal for their money. Nobody is an expert in everything, as much as a good deal of keyboard warriors like to pretend they are. Opinions aren't fact, and it takes an informed populace to differentiate the two, and a wise and humble populace to defer to the more informed ones in the cases of ignorance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 07:56:13 AM

Also, let's be frank: "do your research" is never written on the internet by people who spent hours reading scientific papers and publications, attending conferences and the likes. 99 times out of 100 "do your research" is slang for "watching a crappy YouTube video that confirms what I have already decided I want to be true".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:56:53 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 07:56:13 AM

Also, let's be frank: "do your research" is never written on the internet by people who spent hours reading scientific papers and publications, attending conferences and the likes. 99 times out of 100 "do your research" is slang for "watching a crappy YouTube video that confirms what I have already decided I want to be true".

So fucking true lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 09, 2021, 07:58:03 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 07:56:13 AM

Also, let's be frank: "do your research" is never written on the internet by people who spent hours reading scientific papers and publications, attending conferences and the likes. 99 times out of 100 "do your research" is slang for "watching a crappy YouTube video that confirms what I have already decided I want to be true".

Indeed

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 08:05:21 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:51:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:08:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide

Yup. The general populace in the US is woefully inadequately educated in the sciences, and are incapable of even beginning to comprehend the science behind vaccines. Them making a decision based on 'their own research', while their choice, is laughable at best. I have a cursory knowledge of the sciences, and a sprinkling of introductory college science courses at a respected institution, and still can't even begin to wrap my head around exactly what the mrna vaxx does.

I'm staying out of this discussion mostly, but I would like to (hopefully helpfully) point out to the group that "doing your research" doesn't mean starting from scratch entirely, and CAN just mean just collecting the consensus of the experts.   Otherwise I'm calling bullshit on every person here that is concerned about global warming, since I highly doubt that anyone has taken their own climate measurements over the last 200 years, studied them for patterns, done complete regression analyses, plugged them into climate models that were no doubt constructed - and tested, empirically - themselves?   I think not.  :) :) :)

There's a middle ground of understanding that I feel is necessary to be an informed populace.  Don't get me wrong, we as Americans generally fail even that standard, and majestically at that, but still.

But I do put faith in the scores of climate scientists who have done so. Again, just as your clients put faith in your legal skills, or my customers put faith in the fact that they're gonna get a bomb ass meal for their money. Nobody is an expert in everything, as much as a good deal of keyboard warriors like to pretend they are. Opinions aren't fact, and it takes an informed populace to differentiate the two, and a wise and humble populace to defer to the more informed ones in the cases of ignorance.

I'm sorry Lonestar, it doesn't sound it I know, but I was agreeing with you. I only used your post to reply to because you sort of broached the subject, but my comments were directed elsewhere.  This shouldn't be such a controversial topic; we do this all the time.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 09, 2021, 08:10:53 AM

https://www.aol.com/north-carolina-sites-halt-j-000205052-081444800.html

Yeah...


Also, all drugs have side effects. And that depends on the person. And people do not like these side effects and don't want to take those drugs. Some even are finding ways because their life became dependant on that drug.

Vaccines are no different.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 08:13:48 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 08:05:21 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:51:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:08:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide

Yup. The general populace in the US is woefully inadequately educated in the sciences, and are incapable of even beginning to comprehend the science behind vaccines. Them making a decision based on 'their own research', while their choice, is laughable at best. I have a cursory knowledge of the sciences, and a sprinkling of introductory college science courses at a respected institution, and still can't even begin to wrap my head around exactly what the mrna vaxx does.

I'm staying out of this discussion mostly, but I would like to (hopefully helpfully) point out to the group that "doing your research" doesn't mean starting from scratch entirely, and CAN just mean just collecting the consensus of the experts.   Otherwise I'm calling bullshit on every person here that is concerned about global warming, since I highly doubt that anyone has taken their own climate measurements over the last 200 years, studied them for patterns, done complete regression analyses, plugged them into climate models that were no doubt constructed - and tested, empirically - themselves?   I think not.  :) :) :)

There's a middle ground of understanding that I feel is necessary to be an informed populace.  Don't get me wrong, we as Americans generally fail even that standard, and majestically at that, but still.

But I do put faith in the scores of climate scientists who have done so. Again, just as your clients put faith in your legal skills, or my customers put faith in the fact that they're gonna get a bomb ass meal for their money. Nobody is an expert in everything, as much as a good deal of keyboard warriors like to pretend they are. Opinions aren't fact, and it takes an informed populace to differentiate the two, and a wise and humble populace to defer to the more informed ones in the cases of ignorance.

I'm sorry Lonestar, it doesn't sound it I know, but I was agreeing with you. I only used your post to reply to because you sort of broached the subject, but my comments were directed elsewhere.  This shouldn't be such a controversial topic; we do this all the time.   :)

Actually I did catch that, was just expanding on it. :lol

Buy those lotto tix Chad...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 09, 2021, 08:24:36 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 07:56:13 AM

Also, let's be frank: "do your research" is never written on the internet by people who spent hours reading scientific papers and publications, attending conferences and the likes. 99 times out of 100 "do your research" is slang for "watching a crappy YouTube video that confirms what I have already decided I want to be true".

This.

And unfortunately I am very much inclined to believe we are headed for distaster in terms of climate change (long term). As a sidenote, I don't think you have to be a brilliant climate scientist to realise that in a world of finite resources you will hit a bottleneck eventually. Especially if we are removing the natural elements that act as buffers or recyclers/redistrubutors. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 09, 2021, 08:27:35 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 08, 2021, 08:55:29 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 08, 2021, 07:46:41 PM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 08, 2021, 03:34:46 PM

:lol  Seems to be some confusion about the differences between an unknown substance injected into your arm and normal food that's eaten every day.  It was an honest yes or no question and all I get is a bunch of smartass, snarky fucking bullshit.  :\

Maybe when a dozen or so people respond in a similar way, the “smartass snarky bullshit” is in the question, not the responses?  Just sayin.

If you wanted legitimate dialogue, perhaps instead of dropping a troll-like grenade on the table, put some context behind the question? Especially given your current position on the pandemic and measures to combat it, surely you can comprehend that others might interpret your comment to be a little snarky itself.

Do you know the ingredients of every food and medication you ingest?

...or, alternatively, how about not being the self-proclaimed Question Police and not giving snarky, smartass responses to questions you subjectively do not deem worthy?

Geez, and I thought personal attacks were against rules.  Please indicate where I self proclaimed myself the "Question Police", or deemed someone's question 'not worthy'.  My point was that when 10 people see something a certain way, the 1 person who sees it differently is, generally speaking, the outlier.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 09, 2021, 08:31:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:51:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:08:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide

Yup. The general populace in the US is woefully inadequately educated in the sciences, and are incapable of even beginning to comprehend the science behind vaccines. Them making a decision based on 'their own research', while their choice, is laughable at best. I have a cursory knowledge of the sciences, and a sprinkling of introductory college science courses at a respected institution, and still can't even begin to wrap my head around exactly what the mrna vaxx does.

I'm staying out of this discussion mostly, but I would like to (hopefully helpfully) point out to the group that "doing your research" doesn't mean starting from scratch entirely, and CAN just mean just collecting the consensus of the experts.   Otherwise I'm calling bullshit on every person here that is concerned about global warming, since I highly doubt that anyone has taken their own climate measurements over the last 200 years, studied them for patterns, done complete regression analyses, plugged them into climate models that were no doubt constructed - and tested, empirically - themselves?   I think not.  :) :) :)

There's a middle ground of understanding that I feel is necessary to be an informed populace.  Don't get me wrong, we as Americans generally fail even that standard, and majestically at that, but still.

But I do put faith in the scores of climate scientists who have done so. Again, just as your clients put faith in your legal skills, or my customers put faith in the fact that they're gonna get a bomb ass meal for their money. Nobody is an expert in everything, as much as a good deal of keyboard warriors like to pretend they are. Opinions aren't fact, and it takes an informed populace to differentiate the two, and a wise and humble populace to defer to the more informed ones in the cases of ignorance.

Yet, you are having many experts saying one thing and everyone listening to one Man...Also, these experts are having trouble agreeing with stuff.


The point is even though you may trust them, doesn't mean other people do. Some people may even see that person as an enemy. Because that person may have done something horrible to that other person, while presenting you with a smile and acting kind. You would not know until they are exposed, it's what happens when people's favorite idol gets exposed as a horrible human being, just look at the headlines and shock.

Of course, no one can know everything. Or else, why would we need each other. But we individually still are capable of learning as much as we can.

I strive for this. It's not hard to learn how things work. It just takes times, patience, and effort. It's not easy, it's a lot of work, but you can learn It. People just choose not too. And feel contempt with what they know. That's fine, but some do not and feel that knowledge is power, which it really is. Because people flock to you as being the expert, and knowing this, you can easily tell the gullible anything and they'll believe it.

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 07:56:13 AM

Also, let's be frank: "do your research" is never written on the internet by people who spent hours reading scientific papers and publications, attending conferences and the likes. 99 times out of 100 "do your research" is slang for "watching a crappy YouTube video that confirms what I have already decided I want to be true".

Well, that's not doing your research or Thinking For Yourself. Doing research means looking up vast sources, seeing what's common and what's not, it's what I was taught when I had to do research papers in school. To look at other sources, because this was the time when Wikipedia was getting known and students were plagarizing from there. The teachers actually knew because they looked it up themselves. I remember when plagarizing was big in our school.

These days, it's like people do not know how to think critically or even know how to research and not just trust and have faith in that one youtube video.

We've seen all the people that try and make stuff from cookbooks, and YouTube videos. What this here is, experience...

You can do all the research and have all the knowledge, but do you have the experience and wisdom. That's what an expert is for because they actually should have went out and did the actual thing they're discussing.the experts have wisdom from experience. The scientist actually did the study. If you want to know yourself, you can do it yourself. But do you have access to all the things you need, without going into college or universities?

Why do you need to go these accredited schools. What about those other cultures that do not have schools.

Anyways I digress...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 09, 2021, 08:33:02 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on April 09, 2021, 08:24:36 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 07:56:13 AM

Also, let's be frank: "do your research" is never written on the internet by people who spent hours reading scientific papers and publications, attending conferences and the likes. 99 times out of 100 "do your research" is slang for "watching a crappy YouTube video that confirms what I have already decided I want to be true".

This.

And unfortunately I am very much inclined to believe we are headed for distaster in terms of climate change (long term). As a sidenote, I don't think you don't have to be a brilliant climate scientist to realise that in a world of finite resources you will hit a bottleneck eventually. Especially if we are removing the natural elements that act as buffers or recyclers/redistrubutors.

We Natives knew this. Yet, our knowledge was deemed savage and unworthy of understanding.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 09, 2021, 01:15:30 PM

Just got shot 1 of Pfizer. I feel bleh. You ever get a CAT scan get injected with that stuff that makes you feel lighted, gives you a weird taste, and then makes you feel like you just pissed yourself? That's how I feel minus the pee pants parts.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 09, 2021, 01:23:30 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 09, 2021, 08:31:39 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:51:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 09, 2021, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 07:08:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 05:15:42 AM

All these talks about vaccine ingredients reminded me of a student that got people to sign a petition for banning water:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide (https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501907/14-year-old-who-convinced-people-ban-dihydrogen-monoxide)

Yup. The general populace in the US is woefully inadequately educated in the sciences, and are incapable of even beginning to comprehend the science behind vaccines. Them making a decision based on 'their own research', while their choice, is laughable at best. I have a cursory knowledge of the sciences, and a sprinkling of introductory college science courses at a respected institution, and still can't even begin to wrap my head around exactly what the mrna vaxx does.

I'm staying out of this discussion mostly, but I would like to (hopefully helpfully) point out to the group that "doing your research" doesn't mean starting from scratch entirely, and CAN just mean just collecting the consensus of the experts.   Otherwise I'm calling bullshit on every person here that is concerned about global warming, since I highly doubt that anyone has taken their own climate measurements over the last 200 years, studied them for patterns, done complete regression analyses, plugged them into climate models that were no doubt constructed - and tested, empirically - themselves?   I think not.  :) :) :)

There's a middle ground of understanding that I feel is necessary to be an informed populace.  Don't get me wrong, we as Americans generally fail even that standard, and majestically at that, but still.

But I do put faith in the scores of climate scientists who have done so. Again, just as your clients put faith in your legal skills, or my customers put faith in the fact that they're gonna get a bomb ass meal for their money. Nobody is an expert in everything, as much as a good deal of keyboard warriors like to pretend they are. Opinions aren't fact, and it takes an informed populace to differentiate the two, and a wise and humble populace to defer to the more informed ones in the cases of ignorance.

Yet, you are having many experts saying one thing and everyone listening to one Man...Also, these experts are having trouble agreeing with stuff.


The point is even though you may trust them, doesn't mean other people do. Some people may even see that person as an enemy. Because that person may have done something horrible to that other person, while presenting you with a smile and acting kind. You would not know until they are exposed, it's what happens when people's favorite idol gets exposed as a horrible human being, just look at the headlines and shock.

Of course, no one can know everything. Or else, why would we need each other. But we individually still are capable of learning as much as we can.

I strive for this. It's not hard to learn how things work. It just takes times, patience, and effort. It's not easy, it's a lot of work, but you can learn It. People just choose not too. And feel contempt with what they know. That's fine, but some do not and feel that knowledge is power, which it really is. Because people flock to you as being the expert, and knowing this, you can easily tell the gullible anything and they'll believe it.

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2021, 07:56:13 AM

Also, let's be frank: "do your research" is never written on the internet by people who spent hours reading scientific papers and publications, attending conferences and the likes. 99 times out of 100 "do your research" is slang for "watching a crappy YouTube video that confirms what I have already decided I want to be true".

Well, that's not doing your research or Thinking For Yourself. Doing research means looking up vast sources, seeing what's common and what's not, it's what I was taught when I had to do research papers in school. To look at other sources, because this was the time when Wikipedia was getting known and students were plagarizing from there. The teachers actually knew because they looked it up themselves. I remember when plagarizing was big in our school.

These days, it's like people do not know how to think critically or even know how to research and not just trust and have faith in that one youtube video.

We've seen all the people that try and make stuff from cookbooks, and YouTube videos. What this here is, experience...

You can do all the research and have all the knowledge, but do you have the experience and wisdom. That's what an expert is for because they actually should have went out and did the actual thing they're discussing.the experts have wisdom from experience. The scientist actually did the study. If you want to know yourself, you can do it yourself. But do you have access to all the things you need, without going into college or universities?

Why do you need to go these accredited schools. What about those other cultures that do not have schools.

Anyways I digress...

That is some word salad that I can't make heads or tales of after reading it from beginning to end 3 times.   :lol


No offense, I just have no idea what you are talking about here, it's almost like you quoted one post while answering something completely different

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 09, 2021, 02:00:01 PM

With Illinois expanding to 16 and up next week, I just got my 17 year son signed up for his first Pfizer dose on the 22nd. My county has openings for all 3 vaccines so we have a nice choice. My 20 year old daughter will be signing up for the Moderna shot on the 26th or thereabouts. I've been vaxed since January and my wife is getting her 2nd Moderna soon. Getting closer to a fully vaxed house.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 09, 2021, 02:36:55 PM

Congrats!  My wife, son, and I all got our second shot this week.  Our daughter is scheduled for both shots (that's how they do it in VA) and I think gets the first one Saturday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 09, 2021, 03:20:18 PM

NJ is set to open to everyone 16 and older on the 19th.  However, it seems if you can find an appointment, no one is asking questions anyway so get the shots if you can secure an appointment!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 09, 2021, 03:23:50 PM

Just heard the J&J fuck up is going to cost CA 90%of their incoming supply in the week to come. This should be interesting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 09, 2021, 04:34:28 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 09, 2021, 01:23:30 PM

That is some word salad that I can't make heads or tales of after reading it from beginning to end 3 times.   :lol


No offense, I just have no idea what you are talking about here, it's almost like you quoted one post while answering something completely different

It's all good. I tend to do that, and my mind takes off, and one thing I need to learn how to control.  :lol

It's mainly, Trusting Experts, Wanting to gain Knowledge, and Thinking For Yourself, are what I am trying to convey about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 10, 2021, 10:01:04 AM

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gen-army-covid-vaccine-heard-begun-human-trials/story?id=76901332

my cousin Dom is a scientist who lives in Washington DC and is working on this project, looks promising!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 11, 2021, 05:51:52 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 09, 2021, 04:34:28 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 09, 2021, 01:23:30 PM

That is some word salad that I can't make heads or tales of after reading it from beginning to end 3 times.   :lol


No offense, I just have no idea what you are talking about here, it's almost like you quoted one post while answering something completely different

It's all good. I tend to do that, and my mind takes off, and one thing I need to learn how to control.  :lol

It's mainly, Trusting Experts, Wanting to gain Knowledge, and Thinking For Yourself, are what I am trying to convey about.

 :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 11, 2021, 06:26:32 AM

This time of year I get pretty stuffed up with allergies and if you were standing in front of me listening to me talk you'd think I've got a cold or worse, Covid-19 by the way I sound.  People at my office were giving me dirty looks because they thought I might be infected with the 'rona.


Had to go get a PCR test and post the negative results on the outside of the door to my office so I could prove to everyone that I'm not contagious.  At first I was kind of pissed that people wouldn't just take my word for it, but I guess people are just doubtful and suspicious by nature  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 11, 2021, 07:59:38 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 11, 2021, 06:26:32 AM

This time of year I get pretty stuffed up with allergies and if you were standing in front of me listening to me talk you'd think I've got a cold or worse, Covid-19 by the way I sound.  People at my office were giving me dirty looks because they thought I might be infected with the 'rona.


Had to go get a PCR test and post the negative results on the outside of the door to my office so I could prove to everyone that I'm not contagious.  At first I was kind of pissed that people wouldn't just take my word for it, but I guess people are just doubtful and suspicious by nature  :|

I remember this time last year when the allergies were kicking my ass, and I was waking up every day frantically taking my temp because how shitty I felt made me paranoid I had the rona.

Now that I'm fully vaxxed, I'm just pissed it's allergy season again  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: orcus116 on April 11, 2021, 04:12:57 PM

Just got my first dose (Pfizer) and I'm in the waiting area. Curious to see what side effects may occur. My arm has been hurting for the last few weeks so I'm kind of used to that at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 11, 2021, 04:26:43 PM

Quote from: orcus116 on April 11, 2021, 04:12:57 PM

Just got my first dose (Pfizer) and I'm in the waiting area. Curious to see what side effects may occur. My arm has been hurting for the last few weeks so I'm kind of used to that at this point.

My arm was mildly sore and the night of I was more tired than usual. That was it for me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: zerogravityfat on April 11, 2021, 04:27:41 PM

Quote from: orcus116 on April 11, 2021, 04:12:57 PM

Just got my first dose (Pfizer) and I'm in the waiting area. Curious to see what side effects may occur. My arm has been hurting for the last few weeks so I'm kind of used to that at this point.

I got a pretty sore arm next day, then headache in the afternoon, better on day two today. Stay hydrated, i was bad with
h that

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: orcus116 on April 11, 2021, 05:08:50 PM

Thanks! Yeah I heard about the hydration thing so I'm going to be pounding water as much as possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 11, 2021, 09:49:42 PM

I did have some mild allergy symptoms the other day, though nothing like what I usually get. Same with my daughter, hasn't had to take any allergy medicine.

I got my 2nd shot of Pfizer today, so far only a sore arm. 1st dose also was the same. My wife's 2nd shot put her in bed for the whole day with really bad body aches, fever, chills, but it recovered in a day. Curious how I'm going to be when I wake up tomorrow.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 12, 2021, 07:14:31 AM

I felt fine the day of my first shot (Thursday), but I felt like ass all weekend.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 08:04:34 AM

Yeah I'm starting to feel the aches all over today, still not debilitating though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 12, 2021, 08:11:36 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 12, 2021, 07:14:31 AM

I felt fine the day of my first shot (Thursday), but I felt like ass all weekend.

Were you just gassed.  That's how I felt.  No energy at all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 12, 2021, 08:20:25 AM

The day after getting shot #1, I felt super hungover without the headache. For the few hours immediately after getting the shot, it kind of felt like that feeling after being injected with dye for a CAT scan. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 12, 2021, 09:18:48 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 12, 2021, 08:11:36 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 12, 2021, 07:14:31 AM

I felt fine the day of my first shot (Thursday), but I felt like ass all weekend.

Were you just gassed.  That's how I felt.  No energy at all.

Mostly, yeah.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 12, 2021, 09:51:55 AM

I started fevering about 16 hours after my 2nd shot.  Then chills and body aches.  I'd say half was through day 2 is when I felt normal again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 10:11:00 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 08:04:34 AM

Yeah I'm starting to feel the aches all over today, still not debilitating though.

And here we go... intensity increasing by the minute.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 12, 2021, 10:24:19 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 10:11:00 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 08:04:34 AM

Yeah I'm starting to feel the aches all over today, still not debilitating though.

And here we go... intensity increasing by the minute.

Good luck man. Hopefully it won't be too intense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 12, 2021, 12:03:36 PM

Just got home from my 3 hour round trip to Atlantic City to get vaccinated.  J&J so only one shot for me.  Feel fine now but I'll have to report back tomorrow as I assume things will kick in over night. Both of my parents had no side effects from J&J so I'm hoping I've got the good genes, but who knows how this works. 

Must say, the AC state mega site was pretty smooth operation.  National Guard running the show, my appointment was around lunch time so it took a solid 20 minutes to get inside after temp checks and check in.  No ID needed to be shown, no questions asked.  They marked my name and gave me a wrist band designating which shot (pfizer or j&J were the options) and 5 minutes after signing in I was in the post shot waiting area.  Tons of people in/out of there which was highly encouraging to see.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyyVznUWEAMB2u_?format=jpg&name=medium)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 12, 2021, 01:02:05 PM

2 hours until Moderna shot #2 goes into my arm :JayOctavarium:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 07:16:42 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 12, 2021, 10:24:19 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 10:11:00 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 12, 2021, 08:04:34 AM

Yeah I'm starting to feel the aches all over today, still not debilitating though.

And here we go... intensity increasing by the minute.

Good luck man. Hopefully it won't be too intense.

Thanks! It actually went faster than I thought, had an afternoon nap and feel a lot better. I was prepared to head into the night with the aches and soreness but it's subsiding now and I'd say I'm at 80%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 12, 2021, 08:32:09 PM

What the fuck...where the fuck is my button man??!?!?!!??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 13, 2021, 12:27:58 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 12, 2021, 08:32:09 PM

What the fuck...where the fuck is my button man??!?!?!!??

Right? No button or even a sticker for me. Just a dumb card with my name, birthday, and numbers on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 13, 2021, 06:04:52 AM

Interesting that J&J is on pause in the US now while CDC and FDA review the 6 blood clots cases from about 7 million doses administered.
Astra Zeneca's trajectory was similar where in Europe they administered 34 million doses and had 222 known cases of blood clots.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 13, 2021, 06:58:43 AM

Button yes; Blood clot NO!

Prolly not the news Cram wanted to wake up to!  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 07:07:30 AM

No side effects over here so far. 6 out of 6.8 million is fairly meaningless. Happy I got in before the lock

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 13, 2021, 07:44:16 AM

Plus I believe they found those 6 to be all women between the age of 18-48 yrs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 07:52:11 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 13, 2021, 07:44:16 AM

Plus I believe they found those 6 to be all women between the age of 18-48 yrs.

Yup, actually seems similar to Astrazeneca, very tiny percentage of young women getting blood clots.

1 in 1000 blood clots are expected for women taking birth control sooo not sure why this should lead to a pause, if anything, don't give young women this vaccine or at least educate people so they can make the decision.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:44:22 AM

The clots are similar to one's that occur with a greater frequency among women who take birth control medications. I'm wondering if this will end up a 'correlation isn't causation' issue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on April 13, 2021, 09:01:24 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 07:52:11 AM

Quote from: faizoff on April 13, 2021, 07:44:16 AM

Plus I believe they found those 6 to be all women between the age of 18-48 yrs.

Yup, actually seems similar to Astrazeneca, very tiny percentage of young women getting blood clots.

1 in 1000 blood clots are expected for women taking birth control sooo not sure why this should lead to a pause, if anything, don't give young women this vaccine or at least educate people so they can make the decision.

I agree.

In our case I believe they made the decision to stop vaccinating young women because the chance of blood clots seems equal/higher than the chance of dying. Personally, I think that is not an ideal comparison at all (a bad side effect vs death), but I understand they need to ensure the safety as much as possible. There are discussions to give people the choice to opt for AZ, which sounds like a good idea to me.

Still, ultimately I do think it is good that they show that side effects of vaccines are taken very seriously. Vaccines are extremely important and thus it is also extremely important that people realise these products are continously very carefully monitored. Not ideal in the current situation, but trust levels in vaccines were plummiting in some regions/nations, so as a government you have to do something to gain trust, I suppose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 13, 2021, 09:34:14 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:44:22 AM

The clots are similar to one's that occur with a greater frequency among women who take birth control medications. I'm wondering if this will end up a 'correlation isn't causation' issue.

You've read one too many Stadler posts.   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 13, 2021, 09:50:58 AM

Quote from: ErHaO on April 13, 2021, 09:01:24 AM

In our case I believe they made the decision to stop vaccinating young women because the chance of blood clots seems equal/higher than the chance of dying. Personally, I think that is not an ideal comparison at all (a bad side effect vs death), but I understand they need to ensure the safety as much as possible. There are discussions to give people the choice to opt for AZ, which sounds like a good idea to me.

Still, ultimately I do think it is good that they show that side effects of vaccines are taken very seriously. Vaccines are extremely important and thus it is also extremely important that people realise these products are continously very carefully monitored. Not ideal in the current situation, but trust levels in vaccines were plummiting in some regions/nations, so as a government you have to do something to gain trust, I suppose.

The amount of research and testing for these has been pretty amazing.  But as with a lot of things, our understanding of all things relating to these vaccines is incomplete, and it should be obvious to people that there will need to be some readjusting as these get out to the masses and we learn more.  There has been sufficient research and testing for the medical community to be reasonably assured that there is only a small likelihood of serious side effects or other adverse consequences.  But that isn't ever an ironclad guarantee of anything.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:02:02 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:44:22 AM

The clots are similar to one's that occur with a greater frequency among women who take birth control medications. I'm wondering if this will end up a 'correlation isn't causation' issue.

Same here.  FTR the risk of clots on oral contraceptives is much increased with women who smoke.  So it's great that these extremely rare blood clots are being looked into but there is so much we don't know about the women who got them.  Could they have been pregnant (which can also increase clotting disorders)?  Did they have some underlying previously undetected disease?  Did they smoke?  Did they take other medications that could increase a risk of blood clots?  I'm sure the list of things yet to be known is long.

I'd also be asking about clotting disorders in active Covid disease because I'm pretty sure there is a very high risk of that.  In all groups.

Also while it's not quite the same thing, something that can help with perspective is that Tylenol kills a few hundred people in the US annually.  Nobody in the media bats an eye.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on April 13, 2021, 11:04:15 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 07:07:30 AM

No side effects over here so far. 6 out of 6.8 million is fairly meaningless. Happy I got in before the lock

Less than 1 in a million. Stopping vaccinating would probably be more damaging than continuing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 11:09:46 AM

Quote from: Elite on April 13, 2021, 11:04:15 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 07:07:30 AM

No side effects over here so far. 6 out of 6.8 million is fairly meaningless. Happy I got in before the lock

Less than 1 in a million. Stopping vaccinating would probably be more damaging than continuing.

That's my feeling too.  A covid infection has a higher percentage chance of giving you blood clots from my understand.  That's not to say I think we shouldn't take precaution.  As Harmony mentioned, learn about these people and try to understand the problem.  Meanwhile we can just not give it to women under 50 until we understand more or warning women before they choose that there is a very small risk here.  Pausing the whole thing seems more likely people will get blood clots from catching covid and of course this gets all the conspiracy people out there saying it's all about the politicians keeping their powers longer. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:12:41 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:02:02 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:44:22 AM

The clots are similar to one's that occur with a greater frequency among women who take birth control medications. I'm wondering if this will end up a 'correlation isn't causation' issue.

Same here.  FTR the risk of clots on oral contraceptives is much increased with women who smoke.  So it's great that these extremely rare blood clots are being looked into but there is so much we don't know about the women who got them.  Could they have been pregnant (which can also increase clotting disorders)?  Did they have some underlying previously undetected disease?  Did they smoke?  Did they take other medications that could increase a risk of blood clots?  I'm sure the list of things yet to be known is long.

I'd also be asking about clotting disorders in active Covid disease because I'm pretty sure there is a very high risk of that.  In all groups.

Also while it's not quite the same thing, something that can help with perspective is that Tylenol kills a few hundred people in the US annually.  Nobody in the media bats an eye.

That's why it is very, very important to see your doctor before taking ANYTHING that goes into your body. It's why we have labels on products not to ingest, because your body will not like it and it'll cause damage to your body and therefore, die.

And why, you should tell your doctor EVERYTHING that is bothering you about your body.

They may end up revealing you shouldn't be taking that Tylenol or you shouldn't take this product or use this product.

Yet, people don't follow the advice, and end up getting a blood clot because they decided to eat that greasy ass deep fried bacon cheeseburger with a donut bun, when the doctor specifically told them they could die if they ate another one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:20:20 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:12:41 AM

That's why it is very, very important to see your doctor before taking ANYTHING that goes into your body.

Sorry - but just to lighten the mood....

"Doctor, my husband wants to have PIV sex tonight and I wanted to make an appointment to see if that's safe with my current health status."   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:21:37 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:20:20 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:12:41 AM

That's why it is very, very important to see your doctor before taking ANYTHING that goes into your body.

Sorry - but just to lighten the mood....

"Doctor, my husband wants to have PIV sex tonight and I wanted to make an appointment to see if that's with my health status."   :lol

 :lol :lol

I mean, you should. But, if it's worth the risk, why not.  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 11:38:20 AM

Found this on twitter so take it for what it's worht although it is sourced.

https://twitter.com/foogatwo/status/1382014503039205380 (https://twitter.com/foogatwo/status/1382014503039205380)

Quote

So using VAERS data and doses administered, here's the current case rates for Thrombosis/DVT.

JNJ - 0.087 per 100K
Moderna - 0.088 per 100K
Pfizer - 0.102 per 100K

https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html (https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ey3mh-zWEAIkyP-?format=png&name=medium)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:42:42 AM

But VAERS isn't "data" it's a reporting system and is merely used as an alert system.  Anyone can report anything as a potential side effect.  For example, I get a vaccine and 2 days later I can't find my car keys.  I can report to VAERS that the vaccine is causing me to have memory loss. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:46:08 AM

But if they had done studies. Wouldn't they know it will cause blood clots in women, and then say to women to be cautious in taking the J&J vaccine because it can cause Blood Clots?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 13, 2021, 11:48:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:46:08 AM

But if they had done studies. Wouldn't they know it will cause blood clots in women, and then say to women to be cautious in taking the J&J vaccine because it can cause Blood Clots?

Not necessarily.  There is only so much data that any testing can produce, and it is entirely possible that something like that would not show up during testing, especially given the ultra-low numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:53:20 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:46:08 AM

But if they had done studies. Wouldn't they know it will cause blood clots in women, and then say to women to be cautious in taking the J&J vaccine because it can cause Blood Clots?

IIRC there was 1 in the trial and they determined it wasn't due to the vaccine once all the information was in.  It is possible I'm thinking of AstraZeneca - both are adenovirus delivery of the vax so I may be confusing the two.

I'm seeing a lot of posts about the pharmacies covering their asses with regard to lawsuits but I seem to recall one of the hallmarks of "Operation Warp Speed" was to remove all potential liability from the companies.  Does anyone have confirmation on that?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:42:42 AM

But VAERS isn't "data" it's a reporting system and is merely used as an alert system.  Anyone can report anything as a potential side effect.  For example, I get a vaccine and 2 days later I can't find my car keys.  I can report to VAERS that the vaccine is causing me to have memory loss.

So you are saying people lied?  It's totally possible.  Just as possible as the blood clots have NOTHING to do with vaccines as naturally out of 6.8 million people a few will get them from various other means. 

The reality is, covid can give you blood clots.  It's really no surprise that it's entirely possible to get them from a vaccine to prevent covid IMO, especially the J&J/Astrazeneca approach to the vaccines which use an inactivated adenovirus.  I have not personally seen any news on pfizer/moderna people having clots, but I'm not sure I wouldn't believe someone who is reporting it (on the surface at least, if all those reports came in today for example I may be hesitant).

Quote from: bosk1 on April 13, 2021, 11:48:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:46:08 AM

But if they had done studies. Wouldn't they know it will cause blood clots in women, and then say to women to be cautious in taking the J&J vaccine because it can cause Blood Clots?

Not necessarily.  There is only so much data that any testing can produce, and it is entirely possible that something like that would not show up during testing, especially given the ultra-low numbers.

Yeah, if the trials were only ~40k people, you might not see this until you get to ~7 million people because the numbers are so small.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 12:03:19 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:42:42 AM

But VAERS isn't "data" it's a reporting system and is merely used as an alert system.  Anyone can report anything as a potential side effect.  For example, I get a vaccine and 2 days later I can't find my car keys.  I can report to VAERS that the vaccine is causing me to have memory loss.

So you are saying people lied?  It's totally possible.  Just as possible as the blood clots have NOTHING to do with vaccines as naturally out of 6.8 million people a few will get them from various other means. 

Totally agree with you.  I'm just pointing out that we wouldn't know if the data presented there is based on truth or a lie or even common fears and anxieties.  VAERS was originally set up to protect pharmaceutical companies against frivolous lawsuits that would tie them up in court forever.  People in the past have used VAERS to make all sorts of bogus claims in an effort to litigate.  I think VAERS has a place as an alert system but I would caution using any data from that source as meaningful without looking deeper.

A friend of a friend was making a big stink about VAERS reports on miscarriages.  We know for a FACT that Covid increases those risks.  And it's pretty hard to tease out that a woman in early pregnancy who miscarries after a vaccine wouldn't have miscarried anyway.  I think it's fine to report it.  I just don't draw conclusions from the VAERS reports.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 12:11:18 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 11:42:42 AM

But VAERS isn't "data" it's a reporting system and is merely used as an alert system.  Anyone can report anything as a potential side effect.  For example, I get a vaccine and 2 days later I can't find my car keys.  I can report to VAERS that the vaccine is causing me to have memory loss.

So you are saying people lied?  It's totally possible.  Just as possible as the blood clots have NOTHING to do with vaccines as naturally out of 6.8 million people a few will get them from various other means. 

The reality is, covid can give you blood clots.  It's really no surprise that it's entirely possible to get them from a vaccine to prevent covid IMO, especially the J&J/Astrazeneca approach to the vaccines which use an inactivated adenovirus.  I have not personally seen any news on pfizer/moderna people having clots, but I'm not sure I wouldn't believe someone who is reporting it (on the surface at least, if all those reports came in today for example I may be hesitant).

Quote from: bosk1 on April 13, 2021, 11:48:47 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 11:46:08 AM

But if they had done studies. Wouldn't they know it will cause blood clots in women, and then say to women to be cautious in taking the J&J vaccine because it can cause Blood Clots?

Not necessarily.  There is only so much data that any testing can produce, and it is entirely possible that something like that would not show up during testing, especially given the ultra-low numbers.

Yeah, if the trials were only ~40k people, you might not see this until you get to ~7 million people because the numbers are so small.

Like how they are now seeing this with the J&J vaccine and AstroZeneca, because the amount actually administered is higher than the trials. Trials only give us an amount that it's ok to give people because not many will get these side effects. That doesn't mean people will or won't, and that is determined by whom they tested, it's why it's important to test in as many different ways as possible.

And not everyone has the same body, so everyone takes a risk with any type of vaccine, or drug in general that they take. Because they could be that lucky one that ends up getting the side effect.

And if one doesn't want to take these vaccines or drugs. Why should they be forced to?...That's an entirely different issue...

It's all a personal responsibility of how much are you willing to risk...Do you want to risk getting any further long term side effects from the vaccine or deal with the known side effects of catching Covid?

Some will rather deal with the vaccine side effects than Covid and vice versa.

We know it hits those with certain underlying conditions much worse than those who do not. And depending on whom you ask, they could be either in the much worse category or the less serious asymptomatic category. So those people already dealt with the side effects of Covid.


It's basically now just how much do you want to risk...It's an issue of Risk...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 12:14:21 PM

It is an issue of risk. Risk of getting sick, risk of getting someone else sick, risk of side effects from vaccines, risk of dying one way or the other, risk of a car crash on the way to get a vaccine. 

EVERYTHING has risks.  We need to stop acting like risk needs to be 0 for things to continue, and right now, the risk of blood clots is about as close to 0 as you can realistically expect all things considered. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 12:19:56 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 12:14:21 PM

It is an issue of risk. Risk of getting sick, risk of getting someone else sick, risk of side effects from vaccines, risk of dying one way or the other, risk of a car crash on the way to get a vaccine. 

EVERYTHING has risks.  We need to stop acting like risk needs to be 0 for things to continue, and right now, the risk of blood clots is about as close to 0 as you can realistically expect all things considered.

Exactly, but it's like they want 0 Covid risk in order to continue and pass go. When it's not going to happen. And why I do not like how they are pushing these vaccines.

And why are they so concerned about J&J and Astra-Zeneca if the blood clot risk is close to 0....

And where are they getting this data from to pull these vaccines from being used?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 13, 2021, 12:37:58 PM

bah, I was scheduled for the J&J next week  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 13, 2021, 01:08:25 PM

yes eliminating all risk is impossible but “zero covid strategy” was a very successful in certain countries, even for the economy in the long term.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 01:33:58 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 13, 2021, 01:08:25 PM

yes eliminating all risk is impossible but “zero covid strategy” was a very successful in certain countries, even for the economy in the long term.

And that is all determined by Population, Environment, and the area of that country.

The less population you have the easier it is to get people to not go anywhere and to be confined.

America is not like that, most cities are Over-Populated, and confined into a small area. And that is a cause for sicknesses to easily spread.

There's only so much area for people to inhabit and it's amazing how so many people are confined to such small areas. That diseases can easily spread.

Not a fault of our own, it's just an interesting thing I noticed because of my perspective of being from the southwest.

It's why a lot of Tribes went and shut off access to their reservations and Tribal Villages to anyone other than whom resides in the Community. They only wanted the risk to be from The Tribal Communities and not Outside Sources. That is the only way to control the risk...There are some Tribes in Mexico whose members don't even bother nor have a desire to go to the cities, and are happy staying in the village, so they don't have to worry much as they're only source of risk is through outside sources coming in and any other member whom goes outside the Tribe and comes into contact with anyone from the outside.

I find these things very fascinating.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 03:04:44 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 07:07:30 AM

No side effects over here so far.

Should update to say as this day has gone on, I've gotten seriously tired.  No aches or pains, not even in the arm.  No fever or chills.  Just VERY tired right now.  I expect I'll be in bed early tonight.  If this is the hand I've been dealt with vaccine side effects, I will be very satisfied.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 13, 2021, 04:01:08 PM

I guess I'm just disappointed that I never got stickers saying "I Got Vaccinated".  My wife got one after her first shot, and I didn't, but we went to different locations for our first shots, so I figured maybe my location didn't have them.  She got her second shot at the same place as I went to for both of mine (which is a lot closer), and get a sticker the second time, too, and again I didn't get one.  So disappointing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 13, 2021, 06:21:38 PM

Aww gee.

As long as you don't get an "I'VE GOT COVID" sticker, you're doing just fine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 06:25:28 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2021, 04:01:08 PM

I guess I'm just disappointed that I never got stickers saying "I Got Vaccinated".  My wife got one after her first shot, and I didn't, but we went to different locations for our first shots, so I figured maybe my location didn't have them.  She got her second shot at the same place as I went to for both of mine (which is a lot closer), and get a sticker the second time, too, and again I didn't get one.  So disappointing.

I just ordered a t-shirt off Amazon that says "Vaccinated AF" across my boobs.   :lol


Does anyone here ever listen to a physician named ZDogg?  He's an internist who ?used to? ?tries to? be a comedian who does tons of social media on various medical topics.  His Covid stuff is remarkably good.  Politically he is quite libertarian but not obnoxiously so.  He has a very informative 1 hour post today on the J&J issue and a nice little rant on the topic of risk vs. benefit.  I'm not a fan of his style of comedy but when he talks about the medical stuff, he's quite good.

You can find him on Facebook and Youtube - Today's topic was called "Understanding Vaccine Blood Clot Risk."  For some reason, I can't link it here but it's easily found.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 13, 2021, 06:31:54 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 13, 2021, 06:25:28 PM

Quote from: Orbert on April 13, 2021, 04:01:08 PM

I guess I'm just disappointed that I never got stickers saying "I Got Vaccinated".  My wife got one after her first shot, and I didn't, but we went to different locations for our first shots, so I figured maybe my location didn't have them.  She got her second shot at the same place as I went to for both of mine (which is a lot closer), and get a sticker the second time, too, and again I didn't get one.  So disappointing.

I just ordered a t-shirt off Amazon that says "Vaccinated AF" across my boobs.   :lol

:tup

I had to do something (okay I didn't, but I did anyway) so I posted my vax card on Facebook, along with something two in the arm.  One of my friends gave me shit about posting "personal information" on social media.  My name and birthday.  If someone is so desperate that they'll hack a picture (Friends only) to get my birthday, when there's a thousand easier ways to get it (including Facebook itself) then they're fucking idiots.  But I took the picture down anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 13, 2021, 06:34:54 PM

I thought I read something recently that strongly advised against posting vaccination cards.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 13, 2021, 08:17:59 PM

The prevailing wisdom is to not post any personal information on social media.  I get that, and I get that my name and birthday are personal information.  But I have to think that the effort of harvesting images to get people's names and birthdays isn't worth the payoff.

It reminded me of this email my uncle sent once, back when everyone had that one aunt or uncle who sent chain emails to everyone they knew before you fucking begged them to stop.  It said that you should never park your car in the street, or if you do, you should always cover your car, because people could come around, read the VIN through your windshield, and contact the auto manufacturer armed with that information, and order a duplicate key to the car.  Then they can come back and steal it.  I just thought Holy Shit, if someone actually wants to go through all that just to steal my 2007 Mercury POS, they can have it.  I'll take the insurance payout.

In other words, yeah, someone could conceivably do it, but the return on the effort put into it is absolutely not worth it.  Thieves, even the best ones, are inherently lazy.  They might put a lot of effort into something worth a huge payoff, but they're not going to invest weeks in stealing my car, and they're not going to harvest my birthday off a picture I posted on Facebook.  It's set to Friends only, and yeah I know that can be hacked, but again, why bother when there are 100 easier ways to get that same information?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:49:02 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 12:11:18 PM

It's basically now just how much do you want to risk...It's an issue of Risk...

Risks? Ok...the risk of getting a blood clot from the J&J- 1/1,000,000

The risk of dying from covid19 as a resident of the USA- 1/600

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 14, 2021, 06:00:05 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:49:02 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 12:11:18 PM

It's basically now just how much do you want to risk...It's an issue of Risk...

Risks? Ok...the risk of getting a blood clot from the J&J- 1/1,000,000

The risk of dying from covid19 as a resident of the USA- 1/600

Yeah, I'm really baffled at the health authorities (globally) that are putting widespread halts/pauses JnJ and AZ, all the while the COVID variants are raging out of control (maybe no so much in the US, but everywhere else).  Its like not giving chest compressions to someone having a heart attack, because of the risk that you might crack a rib or two.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 14, 2021, 07:35:19 AM

Norway has stopped the AZ vaccine and is likely to completely drop it because Denmark did as well. They're talking about J&J in all Euro countries now, this might delay our already painfully slow vaccine schedule for a few months. Where these two dropped the ball (J&J is also having a delivery delay to Europe), Pfizer is picking up the slack, and they're promising 50 mil extra to the Euro countries who have a deal with them until the summer, 550k will go to Norway, so even in the most optimistic scenario under 40's probably won't be getting our shots in July if we rule AZ and J&J out. This is pretty depressing, but on the other hand, women under 50 will be half of all the people getting the shots sooner than we think, and it's not all the shots we'll need either - we'll at the very least all have to take two shots next year too, and that's more people dying if we rely on these adenovirus vaccines to do most of the work.

Just another day of being born with all your eggs inside you, stupid eggs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM

I'm just really happy I got my J&J in before the lock.  Back in work today, feel totally fine. 

I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of money/politics at play for completely stopping J&J.  Even a lot of media sources are baffled.  If it turns out to just be a few days of pause while they investigate the 6 women, fine.  But this will seriously putting a slowdown on the world wide effort to get out of this pandemic. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2021, 09:07:32 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:49:02 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 12:11:18 PM

It's basically now just how much do you want to risk...It's an issue of Risk...

Risks? Ok...the risk of getting a blood clot from the J&J- 1/1,000,000
The risk of dying from covid19 as a resident of the USA- 1/600

It's actually even less than 1/1,000,000. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 14, 2021, 09:29:22 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM

I'm just really happy I got my J&J in before the lock.  Back in work today, feel totally fine. 

I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of money/politics at play for completely stopping J&J.  Even a lot of media sources are baffled.  If it turns out to just be a few days of pause while they investigate the 6 women, fine.  But this will seriously putting a slowdown on the world wide effort to get out of this pandemic.

Just the damage it's doing to the ongoing and increasing perception that these are risky or dangerous vaccines.  Because of the media hype, mrs.jingle is absolutely convinced that AZ is unsafe and will do everything in her power to NOT get that vaccine (not that Canadians have a choice - when you schedule a vaccine, you get what's offered), and doesn't want jingle.kids to get it either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 14, 2021, 09:31:36 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2021, 09:07:32 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:49:02 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 12:11:18 PM

It's basically now just how much do you want to risk...It's an issue of Risk...

Risks? Ok...the risk of getting a blood clot from the J&J- 1/1,000,000
The risk of dying from covid19 as a resident of the USA- 1/600

It's actually even less than 1/1,000,000.

And these women found out about the blood clot a week or two after receiving the shot.

The thing is, if it's not concerning than why pull it off.

Couldn't there be more reports that are possible in the next 2 weeks since pulling these vaccines?

Again, where are they getting these CVST bloodclot report data from?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2021, 09:43:08 AM

I heard someone on radio make a tongue-in-cheek comment that, since the percentage of CVST blood clots for those within the typical demographic for that who have received the vaccine is lower than what we see in the general population, maybe the most apropos headline should be "J&J vaccine reduces the likelihood of CVST blood clotting in women!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 09:54:05 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2021, 09:43:08 AM

I heard someone on radio make a tongue-in-cheek comment that, since the percentage of CVST blood clots for those within the typical demographic for that who have received the vaccine is lower than what we see in the general population, maybe the most apropos headline should be "J&J vaccine reduces the likelihood of CVST blood clotting in women!"

Yup.  Also the data suggest you are more likely to get a covid infection AND blood clots from the infection than the blood clots from the vaccine.

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 14, 2021, 09:29:22 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM

I'm just really happy I got my J&J in before the lock.  Back in work today, feel totally fine. 

I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of money/politics at play for completely stopping J&J.  Even a lot of media sources are baffled.  If it turns out to just be a few days of pause while they investigate the 6 women, fine.  But this will seriously putting a slowdown on the world wide effort to get out of this pandemic.

Just the damage it's doing to the ongoing and increasing perception that these are risky or dangerous vaccines.  Because of the media hype, mrs.jingle is absolutely convinced that AZ is unsafe and will do everything in her power to NOT get that vaccine (not that Canadians have a choice - when you schedule a vaccine, you get what's offered), and doesn't want jingle.kids to get it either.

Yeah, the damage in reputation is going to be tough for many to get over for a lot of people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 14, 2021, 09:56:24 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2021, 09:07:32 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 13, 2021, 08:49:02 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2021, 12:11:18 PM

It's basically now just how much do you want to risk...It's an issue of Risk...

Risks? Ok...the risk of getting a blood clot from the J&J- 1/1,000,000
The risk of dying from covid19 as a resident of the USA- 1/600

It's actually even less than 1/1,000,000.

I know, I was just too lazy to math :p

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 14, 2021, 12:54:31 PM

Finally got my new appointment.  I think it's for the Moderna vaccine.  First stabbing tomorrow morning at 10:15  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 14, 2021, 05:01:22 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 09:54:05 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 14, 2021, 09:29:22 AM

Just the damage it's doing to the ongoing and increasing perception that these are risky or dangerous vaccines.  Because of the media hype, mrs.jingle is absolutely convinced that AZ is unsafe and will do everything in her power to NOT get that vaccine (not that Canadians have a choice - when you schedule a vaccine, you get what's offered), and doesn't want jingle.kids to get it either.

Yeah, the damage in reputation is going to be tough for many to get over for a lot of people.

This is probably why medical companies haven't been as "transparent" about vaccines earlier. Instead of avoiding anti-vax backlash we get a world record in over-reaction over an extremely rare side-effect. Denmark's decision to shelve AZ is ridiculous, and it's sadly too easy for other countries to follow suit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 14, 2021, 06:29:15 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 14, 2021, 09:29:22 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM

I'm just really happy I got my J&J in before the lock.  Back in work today, feel totally fine. 

I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of money/politics at play for completely stopping J&J.  Even a lot of media sources are baffled.  If it turns out to just be a few days of pause while they investigate the 6 women, fine.  But this will seriously putting a slowdown on the world wide effort to get out of this pandemic.

Just the damage it's doing to the ongoing and increasing perception that these are risky or dangerous vaccines.  Because of the media hype, mrs.jingle is absolutely convinced that AZ is unsafe and will do everything in her power to NOT get that vaccine (not that Canadians have a choice - when you schedule a vaccine, you get what's offered), and doesn't want jingle.kids to get it either.

The media in general has covered this pandemic in such a fear mongering way.....it’s caused such anxiety and panic. Were this covered more responsibility with reporting just facts and withholding political agenda and the ‘fear’ sprinkled in to sell/obtain views.....we’d be in a much better spot right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 14, 2021, 06:46:53 PM

Quote from: Luoto on April 14, 2021, 05:01:22 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 09:54:05 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 14, 2021, 09:29:22 AM

Just the damage it's doing to the ongoing and increasing perception that these are risky or dangerous vaccines.  Because of the media hype, mrs.jingle is absolutely convinced that AZ is unsafe and will do everything in her power to NOT get that vaccine (not that Canadians have a choice - when you schedule a vaccine, you get what's offered), and doesn't want jingle.kids to get it either.

Yeah, the damage in reputation is going to be tough for many to get over for a lot of people.

This is probably why medical companies haven't been as "transparent" about vaccines earlier. Instead of avoiding anti-vax backlash we get a world record in over-reaction over an extremely rare side-effect. Denmark's decision to shelve AZ is ridiculous, and it's sadly too easy for other countries to follow suit.

And I saw a headline that South Africa has shelved JnJ - THE ONLY VACCINE THEY HAVE!!!

“We’re gonna avoid the risk of a couple cases of blood clots, while putting thousands at risk”

SA had 1600 cases today; 75 deaths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 14, 2021, 07:00:29 PM

I find it amazing how I managed to get this right before this fiasco, no real side effects besides being groggy a day after. Felt totally normal today. Both parents got it a bit ago without much side effects either.  Clots wouldn't happen for a few more days to weeks for me, but I'm really not worried. I'm totally shocked a single shot that doesn't need to be frozen and uses a more traditional approach to vaccines is getting this much flak.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 14, 2021, 07:45:39 PM

Women have a better % of dying driving a car than getting the J&J vaccine but they fell prey to the media pressure. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 14, 2021, 07:51:11 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 14, 2021, 07:45:39 PM

Women have a better % of dying driving a car than getting the J&J vaccine but they fell prey to the media pressure.

Men have a better % of dying in a car being driven by a woman. ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 14, 2021, 07:56:40 PM

Like Shultzy,  I know nothing!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 14, 2021, 08:00:53 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 14, 2021, 07:51:11 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 14, 2021, 07:45:39 PM

Women have a better % of dying driving a car than getting the J&J vaccine but they fell prey to the media pressure.

Men have a better % of dying in a car being driven by a woman. ;D

Somewhere, the heads of the woke are exploding because you make a joke about women drivers.  :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 14, 2021, 09:20:32 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 14, 2021, 07:56:40 PM

Like Shultzy,  I know nothing!

There's probably 10 people on the boards who would get that reference. 11 if Tim ever got any references.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2021, 10:27:36 PM

"I got that reference."  ~Steve Rogers

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Snow Dog on April 14, 2021, 10:51:34 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/i5CCRzE.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 15, 2021, 06:19:37 AM

Kinda looks like Joe if he shaved

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UmzsWxPLIOo/hqdefault.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 15, 2021, 06:57:09 AM

One of the things I'm sure they're looking at with the blood clotting issue is that yes, there have been a small number of reported cases, but what is the actual number of cases of blood clots? I'm sure the ones reported are only a small percentage of the actual. Now that the word is out, they're probably banking on a bunch more reports coming in. Hopefully they want to see what that number is before deciding that the risks are worth the rewards. Of course correlation does not always mean causation and likely the numbers will still be very low, but I don't think it's a bad idea to pause and get more information.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 15, 2021, 08:05:46 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 15, 2021, 06:19:37 AM

Kinda looks like Joe if he shaved

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UmzsWxPLIOo/hqdefault.jpg)

No U.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 15, 2021, 08:07:21 AM

Quote from: Snow Dog on April 14, 2021, 10:51:34 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/i5CCRzE.jpg)

This is a great response.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2021, 08:11:10 AM

My Dad got his first shot yesterday, Moderna. Talked to him this morning and he’s had no side effects....not even a sore arm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2021, 08:20:13 AM

Someone in my office has tested positive, now I'm all wondering who it was...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2021, 08:42:47 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2021, 06:57:09 AM

One of the things I'm sure they're looking at with the blood clotting issue is that yes, there have been a small number of reported cases, but what is the actual number of cases of blood clots? I'm sure the ones reported are only a small percentage of the actual. Now that the word is out, they're probably banking on a bunch more reports coming in. Hopefully they want to see what that number is before deciding that the risks are worth the rewards. Of course correlation does not always mean causation and likely the numbers will still be very low, but I don't think it's a bad idea to pause and get more information.

Interesting because I just read this even though this happened last week... https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html) so actually this is a bit more concerning if a male also had issues with the J&J which kind of changes the perception that this is something specific with women. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 15, 2021, 09:34:08 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2021, 08:42:47 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2021, 06:57:09 AM

One of the things I'm sure they're looking at with the blood clotting issue is that yes, there have been a small number of reported cases, but what is the actual number of cases of blood clots? I'm sure the ones reported are only a small percentage of the actual. Now that the word is out, they're probably banking on a bunch more reports coming in. Hopefully they want to see what that number is before deciding that the risks are worth the rewards. Of course correlation does not always mean causation and likely the numbers will still be very low, but I don't think it's a bad idea to pause and get more information.

Interesting because I just read this even though this happened last week... https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html) so actually this is a bit more concerning if a male also had issues with the J&J which kind of changes the perception that this is something specific with women.

It's why I'm giving it until the next 2 weeks. Because people received the vaccine, and those women got the CVST bloodclots between one to two weeks since taking the vaccine.

That's why I want to know where they're getting this data from? Where are they getting these incident reports from? From the doctors themselves that administered them, or from a site like VAERS?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2021, 09:36:12 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 13, 2021, 11:38:20 AM

Found this on twitter so take it for what it's worht although it is sourced.

https://twitter.com/foogatwo/status/1382014503039205380 (https://twitter.com/foogatwo/status/1382014503039205380)

Quote

So using VAERS data and doses administered, here's the current case rates for Thrombosis/DVT.

JNJ - 0.087 per 100K
Moderna - 0.088 per 100K
Pfizer - 0.102 per 100K

https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html (https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html)

To come back to this, I just read this article:

https://www.barrons.com/articles/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-also-trigger-blood-clots-study-finds-51618488102?siteid=yhoof2 (https://www.barrons.com/articles/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-also-trigger-blood-clots-study-finds-51618488102?siteid=yhoof2)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 15, 2021, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2021, 06:57:09 AM

One of the things I'm sure they're looking at with the blood clotting issue is that yes, there have been a small number of reported cases, but what is the actual number of cases of blood clots? I'm sure the ones reported are only a small percentage of the actual. Now that the word is out, they're probably banking on a bunch more reports coming in.

There's no reason to expect any significant rise in reports if you understand what kind of process a vaccine in development goes through. These vaccines were all subject to thorough testing with tens of thousands of participants, and there were no issues with blood clotting that exceeded whatever safety thresholds had been set. The more you think about the reaction to this unforeseen and highly rare side effect the more ridiculous it gets. If all of Finland's population (5,5 million) were vaccinated with either AZ or J&J, we would probably have a grand total of about 20 of these cases. There are numerous serious medical conditions that are more common than this and yet are considered rare.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2021, 10:22:17 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2021, 08:42:47 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2021, 06:57:09 AM

One of the things I'm sure they're looking at with the blood clotting issue is that yes, there have been a small number of reported cases, but what is the actual number of cases of blood clots? I'm sure the ones reported are only a small percentage of the actual. Now that the word is out, they're probably banking on a bunch more reports coming in. Hopefully they want to see what that number is before deciding that the risks are worth the rewards. Of course correlation does not always mean causation and likely the numbers will still be very low, but I don't think it's a bad idea to pause and get more information.

Interesting because I just read this even though this happened last week... https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html) so actually this is a bit more concerning if a male also had issues with the J&J which kind of changes the perception that this is something specific with women.

But where does it stop? I mean, I'm 45 in relatively good health but that doesn't mean that in 'normal' circumstances I couldn't drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow. With me being vaccinated....if I drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow will everyone think "oh man....that damn vaccine took Gary out"  At what point does just 'natural' causes become natural causes again? Or is it always going to be "well, he/she was vaccinated and that's why they had a stroke / heart attack / aneurism / blood clot / etc etc. How long after receiving the vaccine is the deadline (no pun intended) for vaccine caused deaths to become natural causes?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Luoto on April 15, 2021, 10:29:47 AM

Also, two independent research groups have already identified an antibody from the AZ vaccine that triggers an autoimmune reaction, which results in this rare thrombosis. Therefore the people who are at risk to get this side effect can be identified from blood samples, which makes the AZ vaccine pretty much completely safe because these people can be treated.

(Source: Wall Street Journal)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2021, 10:30:36 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 15, 2021, 10:22:17 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2021, 08:42:47 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 15, 2021, 06:57:09 AM

One of the things I'm sure they're looking at with the blood clotting issue is that yes, there have been a small number of reported cases, but what is the actual number of cases of blood clots? I'm sure the ones reported are only a small percentage of the actual. Now that the word is out, they're probably banking on a bunch more reports coming in. Hopefully they want to see what that number is before deciding that the risks are worth the rewards. Of course correlation does not always mean causation and likely the numbers will still be very low, but I don't think it's a bad idea to pause and get more information.

Interesting because I just read this even though this happened last week... https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/mississippi-dad-suffers-stroke-johnson-130818558.html) so actually this is a bit more concerning if a male also had issues with the J&J which kind of changes the perception that this is something specific with women.

But where does it stop? I mean, I'm 45 in relatively good health but that doesn't mean that in 'normal' circumstances I couldn't drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow. With me being vaccinated....if I drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow will everyone think "oh man....that damn vaccine took Gary out"  At what point does just 'natural' causes become natural causes again? Or is it always going to be "well, he/she was vaccinated and that's why they had a stroke / heart attack / aneurism / blood clot / etc etc. How long after receiving the vaccine is the deadline (no pun intended) for vaccine caused deaths to become natural causes?

Yea, I overall agree.  The risk just doesn't make sense to me to halt these, but I do think we should understand and take caution. I feel like we can still move along with vaccinations AND take precautions. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 15, 2021, 11:47:43 AM

Got the Pfizer Vaccine today - I can already feel that microchip circulating around inside of me retrieving my DNA information and transmitting it via bluetooth back to the CIA


(https://i.redd.it/ieb03zegyv901.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 15, 2021, 03:22:15 PM

I had hoped and expected the trends to be more favorable with nearly 25% vaccinated. At this juncture, it's a bit deflating to see where we are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 15, 2021, 03:22:39 PM

I'm on vacation this week, and I've been away from here for the most part.  I'm enjoying a glass of wine while sitting in on a staff call (yes, I sometimes work on vacation; it's habit and it's worked for me in the past) and ducked in.  It's striking me that I've been in three threads so far, and two of the three require us to put full faith and credit into "science", even in the face of personal experience and anecdotal evidence.  That's fine, I guess, and I can only speak for myself, I'll come around to it in due time, but it's counter to OTHER science - the science of human psychology - that says we don't do this very well. 

I've given all kinds of data about things like cable news, gun usage and gun crime, the performance of certain states/countries vis-a-vis COVID, etc., and yet I'm still having the same conversations over and over with certain people.  Are they stupid?  Of course not; they're HUMAN.  Why do we expect people to all of a sudden just say "Yay, science!" and buy in without question?  Not that the science isn't accurate, but the RECEPTION to that science.   We - people - don't do well with risk; we just don't. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 16, 2021, 08:21:14 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 15, 2021, 03:22:15 PM

I had hoped and expected the trends to be more favorable with nearly 25% vaccinated. At this juncture, it's a bit deflating to see where we are.

Don't fall prey to the negative headlines, we are still doing well here in the US.  The J&J pause will slow things down, but we are still headed in the right direction even though the numbers didn't really go down this week.  Cases went up a bit, and deaths stayed in the 700s daily.  As long as we don't see the deaths go up, I think we are doing as well as you can be all things considered.  If the J&J pause goes into next week (which seems likely) I think I'll have to re-adjust my timeline for getting back to normal, but it's still well within reach.

Fauci said 10k cases per day is when we can get back to normal.  I'm not entirely sure when that will happen though.  Too many people are anti-vax and Fauci's own words don't help those anti-vaxxers want to get it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 08:49:50 AM

I wouldn't throw the anti-vax label around too casually.  There really aren't THAT many anti-vaxxers out there.  What is baffling to me is the number of people who aren't anti-vaxxers that are hesitant to get their anti-Covid vaccines.  I know many, and I listen patiently, and their explanations do not really make much sense to me.  There is a lot of "we're just not in a rush.  We're going to 'wait and see.'  Just not comfortable with how fast these were rolled out."  And it doesn't seem to help at all to debunk the misperceptions built into those statements. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 16, 2021, 08:53:49 AM

I lumped the historical anti-vaxxers with the hesitant covid vaxxers, because at the end of the day, both groups are currently not getting vaccinated. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 16, 2021, 08:57:12 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 08:49:50 AM

I wouldn't throw the anti-vax label around too casually.  There really aren't THAT many anti-vaxxers out there.  What is baffling to me is the number of people who aren't anti-vaxxers that are hesitant to get their anti-Covid vaccines.  I know many, and I listen patiently, and their explanations do not really make much sense to me.  There is a lot of "we're just not in a rush.  We're going to 'wait and see.'  Just not comfortable with how fast these were rolled out."  And it doesn't seem to help at all to debunk the misperceptions built into those statements.

My wife was talking about this last night and I told her that there's just too much skepticism and misinformation on social media.  People don't understand that these companies already know how to make a vaccine and they started mid-way through the process.  Somewhere there's a guy working on a cold vaccine. They know how to make flu vaccines.  COVID is related to both of those, so it didn't take them long to figure it out, since they didn't have to start from absolute scratch. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 09:31:46 AM

The thing is people have their own minds and thoughts. And people can and are able to make informed decisions and make decision that's best for them.

Your decision to get the vaccine, is your decision that you thought is best for you.

There's various reasons why people are not getting the vaccine. The same as there are reasons why people got the vaccine.

And also, of those who did. What was their decision to get the vaccine? And I bet, for some, it's not because of Covid. Could be because they didn't want to lose their job, lose some friends, or face the backlash that is being dealt to people who did not take the vaccine, and would rather not deal with it and just got it anyways.

It's like how people voted for Biden because they disliked Trump. Not because they like Biden.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 09:50:26 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 08:49:50 AM

I wouldn't throw the anti-vax label around too casually.  There really aren't THAT many anti-vaxxers out there.  What is baffling to me is the number of people who aren't anti-vaxxers that are hesitant to get their anti-Covid vaccines.  I know many, and I listen patiently, and their explanations do not really make much sense to me.  There is a lot of "we're just not in a rush.  We're going to 'wait and see.'  Just not comfortable with how fast these were rolled out."  And it doesn't seem to help at all to debunk the misperceptions built into those statements.

I am right there with you. I know several people who have that attitude and typically add 'besides, it'll open a spot for someone else who really needs it'.

This gal I work with gave me this same spiel weeks ago when she was eligible and now - she's got a pretty bad case from what I understand. She regularly attends church, sings in the choir, been going to child functions etc... I can only imagine the number of people she has come in contact with. And this  could have been prevented.  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2021, 10:25:00 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 09:50:26 AM

I am right there with you. I know several people who have that attitude and typically add 'besides, it'll open a spot for someone else who really needs it'.

Welll...I mean, this virus is extremely survivable so I can understand that point of view. Even the most at risk categories the survivability if infected is in the 90% range. Now, that's not to discount the millions of deaths that this thing has been a part of globally....only to say that if a relatively healthy person chooses not to get the vaccine so that someone who is more in need of getting it is assured to get it then well....that's their choice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 16, 2021, 10:41:46 AM

but it’s infinitely better if the healthy person gets the vaccine and thus lessens the risk of passing it on.  Right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 16, 2021, 01:48:54 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2021, 10:25:00 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 09:50:26 AM

I am right there with you. I know several people who have that attitude and typically add 'besides, it'll open a spot for someone else who really needs it'.

Welll...I mean, this virus is extremely survivable so I can understand that point of view. Even the most at risk categories the survivability if infected is in the 90% range. Now, that's not to discount the millions of deaths that this thing has been a part of globally....only to say that if a relatively healthy person chooses not to get the vaccine so that someone who is more in need of getting it is assured to get it then well....that's their choice.

Almost 570,000 dead people and their families might not agree with you there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 16, 2021, 01:50:10 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2021, 10:25:00 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 09:50:26 AM

I am right there with you. I know several people who have that attitude and typically add 'besides, it'll open a spot for someone else who really needs it'.

Welll...I mean, this virus is extremely survivable so I can understand that point of view. Even the most at risk categories the survivability if infected is in the 90% range. Now, that's not to discount the millions of deaths that this thing has been a part of globally....only to say that if a relatively healthy person chooses not to get the vaccine so that someone who is more in need of getting it is assured to get it then well....that's their choice.

Agreed.  Also, we should forget that people who have had Covid and recovered have some natural immunity at least for 4-6 months.  Yes, they should eventually get the vaccine but they shouldn't necessarily run right out and get it unless it was early in the pandemic when they were sick.

When we factor in the percentage of folks who are vaccinated, we also should factor these folks in as well toward the numbers - and I don't know what those are, but even so it is bound to be a good chunk.  We are getting there in the US.  I am more hopeful each day, even with the J&J pause.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 02:03:15 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 16, 2021, 01:50:10 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2021, 10:25:00 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 09:50:26 AM

I am right there with you. I know several people who have that attitude and typically add 'besides, it'll open a spot for someone else who really needs it'.

Welll...I mean, this virus is extremely survivable so I can understand that point of view. Even the most at risk categories the survivability if infected is in the 90% range. Now, that's not to discount the millions of deaths that this thing has been a part of globally....only to say that if a relatively healthy person chooses not to get the vaccine so that someone who is more in need of getting it is assured to get it then well....that's their choice.

Agreed.  Also, we should forget that people who have had Covid and recovered have some natural immunity at least for 4-6 months.  Yes, they should eventually get the vaccine but they shouldn't necessarily run right out and get it unless it was early in the pandemic when they were sick.

When we factor in the percentage of folks who are vaccinated, we also should factor these folks in as well toward the numbers - and I don't know what those are, but even so it is bound to be a good chunk.  We are getting there in the US.  I am more hopeful each day, even with the J&J pause.

At this point, I am talking about personal responsibility. Sure it's her choice but she put a lot of people at risk including her 3 children and her husband. Thankfully, her parents got fully vaccinated about a month ago.

BTW - I think we're past the argument "let someone more in need get it first'. In these parts, anyone over the age of 16 can get the vaccine if they want it. Those who choose not to, play with fire.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 04:04:56 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 02:03:15 PM

Quote from: Harmony on April 16, 2021, 01:50:10 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on April 16, 2021, 10:25:00 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 16, 2021, 09:50:26 AM

I am right there with you. I know several people who have that attitude and typically add 'besides, it'll open a spot for someone else who really needs it'.

Welll...I mean, this virus is extremely survivable so I can understand that point of view. Even the most at risk categories the survivability if infected is in the 90% range. Now, that's not to discount the millions of deaths that this thing has been a part of globally....only to say that if a relatively healthy person chooses not to get the vaccine so that someone who is more in need of getting it is assured to get it then well....that's their choice.

Agreed.  Also, we should forget that people who have had Covid and recovered have some natural immunity at least for 4-6 months.  Yes, they should eventually get the vaccine but they shouldn't necessarily run right out and get it unless it was early in the pandemic when they were sick.

When we factor in the percentage of folks who are vaccinated, we also should factor these folks in as well toward the numbers - and I don't know what those are, but even so it is bound to be a good chunk.  We are getting there in the US.  I am more hopeful each day, even with the J&J pause.

At this point, I am talking about personal responsibility. Sure it's her choice but she put a lot of people at risk including her 3 children and her husband. Thankfully, her parents got fully vaccinated about a month ago.

BTW - I think we're past the argument "let someone more in need get it first'. In these parts, anyone over the age of 16 can get the vaccine if they want it. Those who choose not to, play with fire.

Let me put it this way...

Who is one to say whether what one person decides/chooses to risk? Is that your decision or theirs to make?

What you are doing is choosing and making a decision for someone based on YOUR own reasoning of beliefs and morals. Not everyone has the same morals and beliefs as you.

You think those people did not analyze those risks for their own family and came to the decision what they feel is best for THEIR family. The same that YOU determine what is best for YOUR family? Of course they have and their decision is to not take a vaccine...

What is so hard about understanding and respecting this decision?

It's why they say, to just focus on YOU. And don't be worrying about anyone else that isn't YOU.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 16, 2021, 04:14:52 PM

it’s not about deciding for anyone else.  At this point the optimal solution to this crisis for both health and economic reasons is for everyone to be vaccinated as fast as possible.  To use your phrase, what’s so hard to understand about that?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 04:28:16 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 16, 2021, 04:14:52 PM

it’s not about deciding for anyone else.  At this point the optimal solution to this crisis for both health and economic reasons is for everyone to be vaccinated as fast as possible.  To use your phrase, what’s so hard to understand about that?

Knowing that people make their own informed decisions, makes it almost impossible for people to be vaccinated as fast as possible. And what we are seeing occurring right now is proof of this.

People are not going to be convinced or told to do something. It's why they have to have Russell Wilson and these celebrities go out and soapbox how important these vaccines are. Because no one is convinced or their minds are being changed to take this vaccine.

My right as a Human is to deny anything that I do not want in my body. If that means I will be exiled into being a mountain man surviving on my own self-reliance, then so be it. And that is how many people are thinking as well.


And the most optimal solution is for everyone to be doing everything they can to become healthy. And to not have these underlying conditions that are causing people to succumb and end up with bad side effects of Covid-19, that puts them in the hospitals or on their death beds. Because you also have to look at how Singapore has the lowest Mortality Rate of Covid...

Quote

Singapore sticks rigidly to the WHO’s case definition for classifying COVID-19 deaths. It does not include non-pneumonia fatalities like those caused by blood or heart issues among COVID-19 patients in its official tally.

“I have no doubt that if the WHO revises its case definitions, some of the non-pneumonia deaths will be reclassified and the mortality rate will change,” said Paul Tambyah, president of the Asia Pacific Society of Clinical Microbiology and Infection, without specifying how much it would likely shift.

The health ministry has said its approach is consistent with international practice, although some countries like Britain have taken broader counts. NUH’s Fisher said any change from reclassifications in Singapore would be marginal.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-singapore-explainer-idUSKBN2680TF


This is a really interesting map as well...

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 16, 2021, 04:41:49 PM

I don't know why I even tried. Keep on trucking dude.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 04:51:08 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 16, 2021, 04:41:49 PM

I don't know why I even tried. Keep on trucking dude.

Dude, it's what Stadler is saying as well...

Quote from: Stadler on April 15, 2021, 03:22:39 PM

I'm on vacation this week, and I've been away from here for the most part.  I'm enjoying a glass of wine while sitting in on a staff call (yes, I sometimes work on vacation; it's habit and it's worked for me in the past) and ducked in.  It's striking me that I've been in three threads so far, and two of the three require us to put full faith and credit into "science", even in the face of personal experience and anecdotal evidence.  That's fine, I guess, and I can only speak for myself, I'll come around to it in due time, but it's counter to OTHER science - the science of human psychology - that says we don't do this very well. 

I've given all kinds of data about things like cable news, gun usage and gun crime, the performance of certain states/countries vis-a-vis COVID, etc., and yet I'm still having the same conversations over and over with certain people.  Are they stupid?  Of course not; they're HUMAN.  Why do we expect people to all of a sudden just say "Yay, science!" and buy in without question?  Not that the science isn't accurate, but the RECEPTION to that science.   We - people - don't do well with risk; we just don't. 

If you know this and understand this. Then you know that it's a pretty daunting task to get "EVERYONE" vaccinated. And not everyone will be able to get vaccinated, because of their own personal health reasons. So, it's up to them whether they risk getting vaccinated and seeing if they will get a severe side effect.

My friend and another person I know, took it, not out of their own will mind you, they didn't have a choice really. And they ended up getting some bad side effects from it. My friend had twitches, and the other almost had to go in to a hospital because she almost stopped breathing. These people have legit concerns, because they were concerned before taking the vaccine about how their body will react because they have health issues.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 16, 2021, 05:41:58 PM

Luckily everyone doesn't need to be vaccinated, but the amount of people who don't trust the science is a bit alarming to me.  It seems more people have been turning the tide to choose to get vaccinated, but I'm not sure it'll be enough, BUT those people are likely to end up just getting a natural infection and that's their choice.  We will still reach herd immunity eventually. 

Having said that, there was a notice yesterday that someone in my office was covid positive.  They won't say who and I asked around and no one will either tell or knows... but there's one personal noticeably not in.  The one anti-mask guy and far right leaning (nice guy, this is not personal I like him but he is an extreme conservative).  So while I can't right now say 100% it's him, it kind of makes sense and also goes along with what I said.  Either you are going to get covid or you will get vaccinated at some point. 

IMO it's best to get vaccinated as it's safer than a natural infection AND provides better long term protection PLUS helps move the country and humans in general forward quicker out of this pandemic. Your choice sure, but one's a better choice than the other.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 06:06:24 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 04:04:56 PM

Let me put it this way...

Who is one to say whether what one person decides/chooses to risk? Is that your decision or theirs to make?

What you are doing is choosing and making a decision for someone based on YOUR own reasoning of beliefs and morals. Not everyone has the same morals and beliefs as you.

You think those people did not analyze those risks for their own family and came to the decision what they feel is best for THEIR family. The same that YOU determine what is best for YOUR family? Of course they have and their decision is to not take a vaccine...

What is so hard about understanding and respecting this decision?

As Xe said, this isn't about "deciding" for anyone.  We are just discussing that some of the "logic" that some of those decisions are based on is...well, illogical.

To the part I bolded, the point I was making initially a few posts back, and which I believe Hunnus was making in his, is that some people (not all, but definitely some) are not analyzing the facts and making a decision based on that analysis.  They are making kneejerk reactions or decisions that are based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.  It is those people that I commented on as far as not "understanding" their decision.  Can I respect it?  Sure.  It is their decision to make.  Can I understand it?  Nope.  Because it is, again, based on error.  It isn't that I disagree with their ultimate decision to not get vaccinated.  I am, again, talking about the subset that make that decision based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 16, 2021, 10:54:37 PM

To put it bluntly, seeing what the lifelong side effects of getting this disease are, I'm not interested in getting that. So many people will suffer lung and breathing issues for the rest of their lives. Some of these people end up with ravaged lungs as a result. I saw something recently about an NBA player that came down with the disease and now has to take an inhaler before every game because he is experiencing long haul effects. There is a WNBA player whose career may be over due to how bad her long haul symptoms have been.

I realize that their are people that will see all of that and still scoff. To them, I won't even say good luck. To be that self-righteous that you would put yours and others health at risk, nope, can't say anything nice. Reminds me of the idiot pundit I saw on Twitter today. Responded to a pic of Biden in a meeting and he was double-masked. The guy ranted and raved that he shouldn't even have one on and that the liberals want us masked forever. Why is this the hill they want to die on? How is a mask impinging on your liberty?

Okay, enough. I got a little excited tonight. Moving on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on April 17, 2021, 03:46:54 AM

I got vaccinated but I understand why some people choose not to. Science is not perfection nor a guarantee. As time passes, what we currently trust as scientific fact, can and will be proven innacurate.

Many medications and pharma products that went through a rigorous approval process, were found many years later to cause cancer or some other nasty side effects, and were pulled from the market. Of course, lawsuits were plentiful.

Here is an article that proves what I'm trying to say. While it has no direct bearing on the topic of this thread, it serves as proof of the evolution of science and learning. We don't know as much as we think we know but at least we are intelligent enough to realize when we're wrong. Unfortunately, we sometimes don't realize this until a point in the future and can't undo the past.

https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/science/article/ultra-precise-experiment-finds-hints-of-unseen-particles-in-the-universe

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 17, 2021, 05:24:47 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 06:06:24 PM

To the part I bolded, the point I was making initially a few posts back, and which I believe Hunnus was making in his, is that some people (not all, but definitely some) are not analyzing the facts and making a decision based on that analysis.  They are making kneejerk reactions or decisions that are based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.  It is those people that I commented on as far as not "understanding" their decision.  Can I respect it?  Sure.  It is their decision to make.  Can I understand it?  Nope.  Because it is, again, based on error.  It isn't that I disagree with their ultimate decision to not get vaccinated.  I am, again, talking about the subset that make that decision based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.

To the women (especially those taking on birth control), I completely understand and respect the decision not to take AZ or JnJ - those are informed and calculated decisions.  There are probably lots of other people out there making informed and calculated decisions.

For those that aren't making INFORMED decisions, I might respect those decisions if it only impacted them.  When those decisions create an unnecessary risk on public health, I don't think any respect is deserved.  It's like respecting someone's decision to drive drunk because they are ok with that choice.  On the second matter that I bolded, I would correct the word "error" with "ignorance".  And as was mentioned - that's towards SOME of the people that are choosing not to vaccinate, not ALL.

Mrs.jingle saw a meme the other day that went something like this.

Little girl:  "Mommy, what's that circle scar on your shoulder"
Mother: "It's from my small-pox vaccine"
Little girl: "Why don't I have one"
Mother: "Because we all took it and it worked"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 17, 2021, 06:17:47 AM

Quote from: emtee on April 17, 2021, 03:46:54 AM

I got vaccinated but I understand why some people choose not to. Science is not perfection nor a guarantee. As time passes, what we currently trust as scientific fact, can and will be proven innacurate.

Many medications and pharma products that went through a rigorous approval process, were found many years later to cause cancer or some other nasty side effects, and were pulled from the market. Of course, lawsuits were plentiful.

Here is an article that proves what I'm trying to say. While it has no direct bearing on the topic of this thread, it serves as proof of the evolution of science and learning. We don't know as much as we think we know but at least we are intelligent enough to realize when we're wrong. Unfortunately, we sometimes don't realize this until a point in the future and can't undo the past.

https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/science/article/ultra-precise-experiment-finds-hints-of-unseen-particles-in-the-universe

There is a huge difference in discovering new phenomenon at the subatomic level that may alter physics as we know it, then there is to the widely confirmed practices of immunology. Science is a single word but it is by no stretch as monolithic as that implies. As Jingle mentions above, vaccines are proven technology because of highly verifiable results.

Remember, science isn't making infallible truth claims. It never has. The role of science has always been to explain observed phenomenon and advance human understanding. The methods of science are, develop the explanation (hypothesis) and try to come up with anyway to falsify the explanation. Even when a hypothesis becomes a theory (no falsifications found) the goal of science is still to find a way to disprove the theory. Every failed attempt confirms the theory, any successful attempt expands our collective knowledge.

So while I completely agree with you when you say:

Quote from: emtee on April 17, 2021, 03:46:54 AM

Science is not perfection nor a guarantee.

I feel it's important to point out that it is a monumental and terribly difficult task, taken up by dedicated, hardworking, brilliant, and (often times) poorly rewarded people. It is the best human system ever dreamed up because, it works. Time and time again. Yes, even when it fails.

Also, (this has nothing to do with Emtee, of course) I keep reading in this thread and others, people claiming to have done their own research and implying a false equivalency with the research done by the actual biochemists and immunologists. This is so far off base that it's not even up to being wrong yet. Medical science is hard and requires years of patient study, testing and real research. An afternoon with Google doesn't stack up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 17, 2021, 07:42:37 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 06:06:24 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 04:04:56 PM

Let me put it this way...

Who is one to say whether what one person decides/chooses to risk? Is that your decision or theirs to make?

What you are doing is choosing and making a decision for someone based on YOUR own reasoning of beliefs and morals. Not everyone has the same morals and beliefs as you.

You think those people did not analyze those risks for their own family and came to the decision what they feel is best for THEIR family. The same that YOU determine what is best for YOUR family? Of course they have and their decision is to not take a vaccine...

What is so hard about understanding and respecting this decision?

As Xe said, this isn't about "deciding" for anyone.  We are just discussing that some of the "logic" that some of those decisions are based on is...well, illogical.

To the part I bolded, the point I was making initially a few posts back, and which I believe Hunnus was making in his, is that some people (not all, but definitely some) are not analyzing the facts and making a decision based on that analysis.  They are making kneejerk reactions or decisions that are based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.  It is those people that I commented on as far as not "understanding" their decision.  Can I respect it?  Sure.  It is their decision to make.  Can I understand it?  Nope.  Because it is, again, based on error.  It isn't that I disagree with their ultimate decision to not get vaccinated.  I am, again, talking about the subset that make that decision based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to decide what's best for the people I reference in my post and Ben_J I don't know how you read that into my post.  ???

Bosk is right, some people are making ill-informed decisions based on faulty (sometimes purposely faulty) information. Do I understand why people won't get the vaccine, nope but can I respect that decision? No, I can't because on a selfish level, I want to return to some sort of normalcy and the more shots in arms the faster we get back but in the end it's a bad decision.

And for the record, when I have these conversations with people, I do not preach to them that they should get the vaccine as it's not my place.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 17, 2021, 08:39:02 AM

Thing is people make these faulty decisions all the time. And that's what Stadlers post is about.

There'e Science that shows people make faulty decisions involving their risk all the time. In America, we know these foods are bad for us and cause health related issues, same with Alcohol, but we do it anyways.

We do many things that are detrimental to peoples overall well being, besides coughing on someone and getting them sick.

That's why when your sick, you should stay home. But some people can't afford to even stay home one day. They have to work, and earn that money to survive. Not everyone can afford these comforts. That's why poverty stricken people are more susceptible, well one of the many reasons.

But, you said it yourself. Just as those people are considered Selfish to not take a vaccine, you admitted you are exactly as selfish for wanting to return to normalcy.

It's the same selfishness on the same bird just on different wings.

I personally think, the world leaders make faulty decisions that are way worse than a virus could be. Affecting millions of people in the process. I don't fault them because in the end, they're human just like you and me. And I do not expect anyone to make informed decisions on their own, because your decisions have consequences and outcomes. It's like reading a Choose Your Own Adventure book, only you can't go back and choose a different path.

It's why Pontius Pilot handed the decision and fate of Jesus to the people. And amazingly the people chose to release a murderer whom physically harmed someone and killed people, over a man who just said things.

To them the risk of jesus spreading his words was a threat they deemed as the better one to get rid off, rather than the murderer.

I'm just saying that it's no surprise to me that people do not want to take a vaccine, based on whatever they are told, and without making their own mind up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 17, 2021, 11:14:41 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 16, 2021, 04:14:52 PM

it’s not about deciding for anyone else.  At this point the optimal solution to this crisis for both health and economic reasons is for everyone to be vaccinated as fast as possible.  To use your phrase, what’s so hard to understand about that?

Because, implicitly, it is.  The judgement.  The use of "stupid" and "illogical" and "selfish" all have connotations to them.   There are hundreds of issues facing America (the world, frankly) where the "optimal solution" is disregarded in favor of either political, cultural or individual concerns, and we bend over backwards to make sure we DON'T use judgmental language in order to protect those - emotionally - that we align with.  You know it and I know it.

I've got my first shot under my belt, and my second is scheduled for this Monday.  I, generally, trust science, I, generally, trust the facts, but there ARE variables here we do not know the values for.   And I won't lie:  I was scared before the first shot, and I'm even more scared before this one.  Scared I'm going to get sick, scared I'm going to increase my odds of some debilitating condition, scared that I'm a lab rat.   

But I will do it; not because it's "optimal solution", not because I'm more logical, smarter or giving than anyone else (though I am ;)) or any of those more sanctimonious reasons (though all of that IS a part of it, on one level).  I'm doing it because I feel - not KNOW, FEEL - it's the right thing for ME and for my FAMILY, and will afford me the best odds of staying capable of doing those things - earning, running a house, being a dad - that my family relies on me for.   But here's the thing:  I would not, I CANNOT, begrudge ANY other human being from doing the same internal calculus, from making the same decision I made, even if they get an opposite answer.  Or if they let their fear overcome them and drive their decision.   Some - most, maybe all - of us here have stood up for people that cannot or will not make the best decision "logically" or big picture out of fear and we think nothing of it.  No, we CELEBRATE it.   Abortion is the ready example (https://journalistsresource.org/economics/abortion-crime-research-donohue-levitt/); science, facts, say it's probably the "optimal solution" for a certain subset of women to opt for abortion.  It's "logical", it's "smart" and it's "selfless", but we wouldn't, for racial, gender, or cultural concerns even DARE to suggest that she should.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 17, 2021, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 06:06:24 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 04:04:56 PM

Let me put it this way...

Who is one to say whether what one person decides/chooses to risk? Is that your decision or theirs to make?

What you are doing is choosing and making a decision for someone based on YOUR own reasoning of beliefs and morals. Not everyone has the same morals and beliefs as you.

You think those people did not analyze those risks for their own family and came to the decision what they feel is best for THEIR family. The same that YOU determine what is best for YOUR family? Of course they have and their decision is to not take a vaccine...

What is so hard about understanding and respecting this decision?

As Xe said, this isn't about "deciding" for anyone.  We are just discussing that some of the "logic" that some of those decisions are based on is...well, illogical.

To the part I bolded, the point I was making initially a few posts back, and which I believe Hunnus was making in his, is that some people (not all, but definitely some) are not analyzing the facts and making a decision based on that analysis.  They are making kneejerk reactions or decisions that are based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.  It is those people that I commented on as far as not "understanding" their decision.  Can I respect it?  Sure.  It is their decision to make.  Can I understand it?  Nope.  Because it is, again, based on error.  It isn't that I disagree with their ultimate decision to not get vaccinated.  I am, again, talking about the subset that make that decision based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.

But that's really my point, Bosk:  when you take out the sort of "objective reading" of science that just assumes everyone will follow that the same way, and inject the well-documented blind spot that many - most - humans have toward that exact "objective reading" of science when it comes to personal risk, it's NOT illogical.   The shot is NOW. It's REAL.  It's HAPPENING, and based on a personal decision. There is accountability, there is causation, and for a benefit that is existential at best (for some).  THIS IS HOW HUMANS GENERALLY JUDGE RISK.   These decisions are logical in that regard.   

I've quoted this book many, many times, and I will do so again:  "How Risky Is It, Really?" by Dave Ropeik (https://www.amazon.com/How-Risky-Really-Fears-Always/dp/0071629696).   This is NOT surprising behavior to me; I make the same mistake that others make - I DO plug it into more general philosophical ideas, like freedom of choice, etc. - but even those aren't really necessarily about objective logic.  Ask El Barto; he's better at explaining it than I am; even "free will" is sort of a misnomer; we're guided by our human nature, by our genes, by our upbringings.  What we THINK are choices, aren't always, and even when they are, they aren't all "logical".

tl;dr:  Some of you are yelling SCIENCE at the top of your lungs, and that's okay, but don't ignore ALL science, is my point.  It's selective reasoning - and ignoring OTHER science - to assume that all people should read the same fact and arrive at the same conclusion, independent of fear, human psychology, or any other pertinent, human emotion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 17, 2021, 01:34:53 PM

So Stads, you're a "feelie"?

Here's one for you - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjD0e1d6GgQ

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 17, 2021, 06:15:09 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 17, 2021, 01:34:53 PM

So Stads, you're a "feelie"?

Here's one for you - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjD0e1d6GgQ

I don't know what a "feelie" is, but I'm 99% sure I'm NOT.   I also am an outlier with the use of social media, I believe my opinion (as related to other opinions) isn't worth the paper it's printed on, and most people (Americans) are so insecure that they HAVE to rely on their opinions as a modest means of generating self-worth in a vicious do-loop of mediocrity.  I used that term to use the terminology of the age we're in.

Don't assume the opposite though; don't assume I think I'm better than anyone else; I try to rely on science and data, but I'm human like everyone else.  I have my blind spots and biases.   Where I tend to differ with everyone else is in my adherence to the fundamental right of a sentient human to be wrong without scathing judgement and/or moral bullying from sanctimonious people that also "feel" they are right. ;) :) :) :)   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on April 17, 2021, 11:50:49 PM

In the UK we have now vaccinated over 50% of the population and last week came out of our 3rd national lockdown, there are still restrictions in place, we are following a roadmap laid out by our government.
Right now the numbers are really low, the lowest since this pandemic took hold, there is a general good feeling now and we hope the vaccines can keep the numbers from rising again - we are now the test case, for once we've led the world and done some something well with our vaccination program.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 18, 2021, 06:15:01 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on April 17, 2021, 11:50:49 PM

In the UK we have now vaccinated over 50% of the population and last week came out of our 3rd national lockdown, there are still restrictions in place, we are following a roadmap laid out by our government.
Right now the numbers are really low, the lowest since this pandemic took hold, there is a general good feeling now and we hope the vaccines can keep the numbers from rising again - we are now the test case, for once we've led the world and done some something well with our vaccination program.

Color me green with envy.  We're the exact opposite here in Canada.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 18, 2021, 06:29:15 AM

There's a reason it's called the "practice" of medicine.  No medical procedure of any kind, whether it be a simple drawing of blood or a quadruple bypass surgery is without risk.  In a civil society part of the social contract is we all agree to be treated by doctors knowing full well that something could -and sometimes does- go wrong.  Vaccine hesitancy in this instance, I believe, is mostly based on ignorance of the facts.  I'm not talking about any present company, all I am saying is if you're going to refuse to take the vaccine then you should understand that the rest of us who are taking the vaccine -you know, the overwhelming majority of the people around you- have every right to restrict where you can go and who you can be in the presence of.  WE are you FORCING you to do anything, but when the majority are doing thing A and you are doing thing B don't be surprised when the majority place limitations on what you can and cannot do.  That's the responsibility we all agree to when we decide to live in a civilization among other people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 18, 2021, 08:27:03 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 18, 2021, 06:29:15 AM

There's a reason it's called the "practice" of medicine.  No medical procedure of any kind, whether it be a simple drawing of blood or a quadruple bypass surgery is without risk.  In a civil society part of the social contract is we all agree to be treated by doctors knowing full well that something could -and sometimes does- go wrong.  Vaccine hesitancy in this instance, I believe, is mostly based on ignorance of the facts.  I'm not talking about any present company, all I am saying is if you're going to refuse to take the vaccine then you should understand that the rest of us who are taking the vaccine -you know, the overwhelming majority of the people around you- have every right to restrict where you can go and who you can be in the presence of.  WE are you FORCING you to do anything, but when the majority are doing thing A and you are doing thing B don't be surprised when the majority place limitations on what you can and cannot do.  That's the responsibility we all agree to when we decide to live in a civilization among other people.

That's exactly what they did in Jesus times. Those whom were at risk, all decided to just exile the lepers. Those people were shunned because they had leprosy Jesus wants afraid and visited the lepers.

That's exactly what they did to us Natives who didn't assimilate. Because we weren't "Civil".

You do know that still is force. Just a nicer way of saying Force.


Also, Natural Remedies have those same risks and also, people are very ignorant about these. Some even consider them "Snake Oil"...But we are ignorant to their benefits because they haven't even been considered for study or tests....until now. It's why you have doctors recommending these Natural Remedies, and a simple diet change.

People will find what works best for them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 18, 2021, 09:03:17 AM

good health isn’t a safeguard against covid-19, it’s still very much a roll of the dice.  The vaccines on the hand, really are protecting us but more importantly slowing and stopping the spread. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 18, 2021, 09:15:33 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 18, 2021, 09:03:17 AM

good health isn’t a safeguard against covid-19, it’s still very much a roll of the dice.  The vaccines on the hand, really are protecting us but more importantly slowing and stopping the spread.

The vaccines help your body understand what the foreign substance is that makes your immune system actually do its job.

It's recognizes what it is, so it can send out the proteins efficiently and not go into overkill mode. It makes your immune system not to have to focus on that Covid virus rather then what it's already focusing on, like inflammation.

It doesn't overwork your immune system to where the immune system doesn't help at all and you succumb to the underlying condition, because your immune system was too busy fighting the Covid virus. Complications related to Covid.

It's to put ease for the hospitals because people whom take the vaccine won't have as severe symptoms as those whom did not take the vaccine. Those whom took the vaccine, their bodies should be able to handle the virus now when they do catch it. It lessens the severity of the symptoms.

The vaccines lessen the side effects. It does not cure or prevent you from the Covid Virus. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 18, 2021, 11:34:43 AM

Oops wrong thread. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 19, 2021, 05:15:18 AM

Seems there is so much hesitation with  AZ that Ontario is lowering the age of eligibility to 40.  Sign me the fuck up!  Hopefully pharmacies around my town get some shipments sometime soon.  Hell, if I can get an app't within a 30 minute drive, I'll make a trip for it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 19, 2021, 06:49:08 AM

New Hampshire is the first state to allow all 16 and over to get the Covid shots. Even out of state like those who go to school in NH.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 19, 2021, 07:06:26 AM

As of today, NJ is open for all to get shots.

Sadly, last week our daily shots actually went down so hopefully with many or all states fully opening up we see the shots given daily go up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 19, 2021, 10:26:26 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 18, 2021, 06:29:15 AM

There's a reason it's called the "practice" of medicine.  No medical procedure of any kind, whether it be a simple drawing of blood or a quadruple bypass surgery is without risk.  In a civil society part of the social contract is we all agree to be treated by doctors knowing full well that something could -and sometimes does- go wrong.  Vaccine hesitancy in this instance, I believe, is mostly based on ignorance of the facts.  I'm not talking about any present company, all I am saying is if you're going to refuse to take the vaccine then you should understand that the rest of us who are taking the vaccine -you know, the overwhelming majority of the people around you- have every right to restrict where you can go and who you can be in the presence of.  WE are you FORCING you to do anything, but when the majority are doing thing A and you are doing thing B don't be surprised when the majority place limitations on what you can and cannot do.  That's the responsibility we all agree to when we decide to live in a civilization among other people.

I like that post a lot, and I - personally - subscribe to it in terms of my thinking, but MAN, do we do a very shitty job as Americans in implementing that on any consistent basis.    There are SO MANY "buts" and "exceptions" to that rule it's almost impossible to use it AS a rule. 

On a related note, got my second dose this morning.    Fingers crossed the side effects are minimal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 19, 2021, 10:35:13 AM

So weird the last two days.  With all the elders vaccinated in my extended family, we all gathered yesterday seeing each other for the first time in awhile.  And now today, with all of us vaccinated here at work, my boss is in as well as a few vendors and we are all getting lunch.  It's almost like things are back to normal minus wearing the mask around others.  It honestly feels good and safe since we all got the shots.  I like this returning to normalcy. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 19, 2021, 10:58:11 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 19, 2021, 10:35:13 AM

So weird the last two days.  With all the elders vaccinated in my extended family, we all gathered yesterday seeing each other for the first time in awhile.  And now today, with all of us vaccinated here at work, my boss is in as well as a few vendors and we are all getting lunch.  It's almost like things are back to normal minus wearing the mask around others.  It honestly feels good and safe since we all got the shots.  I like this returning to normalcy.

I'm wondering if this sudden feeling of Euphoria I'm seeing and witnessing first hand, is more to do with the ease it gives ones minds.

The fear eases on ones mind and in turn it releases a set of Endorphins. Because that fear causes the stress on your mind. And once it's gone, it's a stress release of Endorphins and a feeling of Euphoria that to some, may end being better than sex.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 19, 2021, 11:38:17 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 17, 2021, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2021, 06:06:24 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 16, 2021, 04:04:56 PM

Let me put it this way...

Who is one to say whether what one person decides/chooses to risk? Is that your decision or theirs to make?

What you are doing is choosing and making a decision for someone based on YOUR own reasoning of beliefs and morals. Not everyone has the same morals and beliefs as you.

You think those people did not analyze those risks for their own family and came to the decision what they feel is best for THEIR family. The same that YOU determine what is best for YOUR family? Of course they have and their decision is to not take a vaccine...

What is so hard about understanding and respecting this decision?

As Xe said, this isn't about "deciding" for anyone.  We are just discussing that some of the "logic" that some of those decisions are based on is...well, illogical.

To the part I bolded, the point I was making initially a few posts back, and which I believe Hunnus was making in his, is that some people (not all, but definitely some) are not analyzing the facts and making a decision based on that analysis.  They are making kneejerk reactions or decisions that are based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.  It is those people that I commented on as far as not "understanding" their decision.  Can I respect it?  Sure.  It is their decision to make.  Can I understand it?  Nope.  Because it is, again, based on error.  It isn't that I disagree with their ultimate decision to not get vaccinated.  I am, again, talking about the subset that make that decision based on faulty assumptions and faulty facts.

But that's really my point, Bosk:  when you take out the sort of "objective reading" of science that just assumes everyone will follow that the same way, and inject the well-documented blind spot that many - most - humans have toward that exact "objective reading" of science when it comes to personal risk, it's NOT illogical.   The shot is NOW. It's REAL.  It's HAPPENING, and based on a personal decision. There is accountability, there is causation, and for a benefit that is existential at best (for some).  THIS IS HOW HUMANS GENERALLY JUDGE RISK.   These decisions are logical in that regard.   

I've quoted this book many, many times, and I will do so again:  "How Risky Is It, Really?" by Dave Ropeik (https://www.amazon.com/How-Risky-Really-Fears-Always/dp/0071629696).   This is NOT surprising behavior to me; I make the same mistake that others make - I DO plug it into more general philosophical ideas, like freedom of choice, etc. - but even those aren't really necessarily about objective logic.  Ask El Barto; he's better at explaining it than I am; even "free will" is sort of a misnomer; we're guided by our human nature, by our genes, by our upbringings.  What we THINK are choices, aren't always, and even when they are, they aren't all "logical".

tl;dr:  Some of you are yelling SCIENCE at the top of your lungs, and that's okay, but don't ignore ALL science, is my point.  It's selective reasoning - and ignoring OTHER science - to assume that all people should read the same fact and arrive at the same conclusion, independent of fear, human psychology, or any other pertinent, human emotion.

I'm not sure what you are arguing here, so it is difficult to respond.  But as best I can tell, you aren't really responding to my point at all (unless I misunderstood).  I am, for the most part, NOT one who is yelling "SCIENCE!" and saying there is one objective way to view "the science."  What I am actually going on about is people selectively ignoring important data and making decisions that are based on an demonstrably incorrect information (whether based on facts that are wrong or by omitting facts that change the picture). 

To get into some specifics, here is an example:  Plenty of people out there are not comfortable with the vaccine because they feel it was "rushed" out, and there hasn't been sufficient time to test it fully and to fully understand and appreciate the long-term effects of it.  So far, that's fine.  I disagree, and I think there are a lot of very good reasons to disagree.  But that said, if that is somebody's reasoning, so be it. 

But now let's drill down a bit on the reason.  My opinion of the soundness of that reasoning changes drastically in the following scenario:  The person erroneously assumes that coronavirus is a new phenomenon, that scientists and doctors of all sorts have NOT been studying it for several decades, and that vaccinations of various sorts have NOT been in the works for a VERY long time.  They also erroneously assume that the development, testing, and vetting processes were filled with impermissible shortcuts that do not comply with FDA guidelines and other relevant, well-established rules.  None of that is true, and there is ample data to the contrary that is readily available and readily verifiable.  And it is not subject to opinion.  Yes, the conclusions to be drawn from that data are open to debate.  That's  fine.  What, to me, is confounding is the willful ignorance of that data and the decision to instead embrace misinformation, and to use that to formulate the decision.  Again, feel free to dispute what the facts mean or what they dictate is best for you.  But don't ignore the facts because they don't fit the narrative.  Doing so makes no sense to me.

I'm not going to accuse someone of "ignoring the science" just because they have a difference of opinion on what the "science" means, how reliable it is, how it impacts their situation, etc.  I am going to get a bit more wound up when they are in fact simply ignoring the information altogether.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2021, 11:49:28 AM

Willful ignorance is the bane of human existence. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 19, 2021, 12:54:50 PM

I don't know where the intersection is, Bosk.  I know what I'm saying isn't a direct reaction to what you're saying, nor is it totally irrelevant.

Where I'm going is, the "ignoring of facts" has to be put into context.  I think I agree with you; if one is simply saying "2+3=7", sure, you're right.   But I think it's more complicated than that.  And maybe it's my base assumptions at work here, but I'm not convinced that people simply DO the math and their personal feelings be damned.   I think our analyses are subjective on even the simplest things.  There are far too many people for whom the facts aren't the steps to the conclusion, but rather, the rationalization for the conclusion already arrived at.  "I want the shot".  Why?  Uh, herd immunity!   95% effective rate!  Compassion!    "Wait, I'm scared, I don't want the shot."   Why?  Uh, lemme see...  oh, it's brand new!   Heart flutters!   My DNA will be scrambled!   

I'm sure there are people that simply sit down with a clean slate and for every issue assess all the reasonably known data and derive a conclusion, independent of their political bias, their personal values, or whether the conclusion will help them personally (haha; ask someone making minimum wage whether tax cuts are good or not, or whether the rich should be taxed more.  Duh!)   These people are, in my experience, rare.   Sometimes the science lines up with the personal feelings and it's easy.  Sometimes, though, not.   There are plenty of threads here - guns, abortion, cable news - where there are positions, sometimes even the general consensus, that are simply not sustained by the data.  There may be other rationalizations taken, so that the person isn't specifically arguing "2+3=7",  but changing the discussion away from the facts to keep your position intact isn't that far off.

I just have too many examples - yes, even HERE - where hard data hasn't moved the needle even a little bit and rather than account for that data, either through a change in position or even a shift, where the information is assimilated and accounted for (as it MUST be), the answer is "well, you're [this]".  Or "well, even ONE is too many."  Or, if you're Jingle, "well, the law isn't the only standard to follow, Mr. Lawyer Man!".    Any of a 100 answers which don't answer the question, they just serve to reinforce however it may be, the position taken.

And that's assuming of course, that the alternate (truthful) data is even known!   I got into a lengthy (sort of) discussion with someone this past week on court packing.  Biden this, Biden that, and fucking Biden.   I asked them a simple question: "How do seats get added to the court?  How can they do that?"   Crickets. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 19, 2021, 08:32:22 PM

Maybe this is better off in P/R, but I think Maher nails it here about COVID:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp3gy_CLXho

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 19, 2021, 08:57:38 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 19, 2021, 08:32:22 PM

Maybe this is better off in P/R, but I think Maher nails it here about COVID:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp3gy_CLXho

Thanks for posting that Kev.

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 18, 2021, 06:29:15 AM

There's a reason it's called the "practice" of medicine.  No medical procedure of any kind, whether it be a simple drawing of blood or a quadruple bypass surgery is without risk.  In a civil society part of the social contract is we all agree to be treated by doctors knowing full well that something could -and sometimes does- go wrong.  Vaccine hesitancy in this instance, I believe, is mostly based on ignorance of the facts.  I'm not talking about any present company, all I am saying is if you're going to refuse to take the vaccine then you should understand that the rest of us who are taking the vaccine -you know, the overwhelming majority of the people around you- have every right to restrict where you can go and who you can be in the presence of.  WE are you FORCING you to do anything, but when the majority are doing thing A and you are doing thing B don't be surprised when the majority place limitations on what you can and cannot do.  That's the responsibility we all agree to when we decide to live in a civilization among other people.

Maybe I'm wrong...I haven't spent my days in the reading of studies....but my understanding is that the vaccine will keep me from getting sick. It does not keep me from contracting Covid, or even passing it on. So if someone decides of their own volition to not get the vaccine, doesn't it reason that they're only putting themselves at risk? Because even if they do get the vaccine, they can still contract it and pass it on, no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 19, 2021, 09:02:59 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 19, 2021, 08:57:38 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 19, 2021, 08:32:22 PM

Maybe this is better off in P/R, but I think Maher nails it here about COVID:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp3gy_CLXho

Thanks for posting that Kev.
 

 :tup :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 19, 2021, 09:03:37 PM

I do believe that is not correct Tac. Though like anything else, it’s not 100%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 19, 2021, 09:05:29 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 19, 2021, 09:03:37 PM

I do believe that is not correct Tac. Though like anything else, it’s not 100%.

I don't understand.. You first tell me I'm incorrect, but then follow it up with I might be correct..

I've read a couple of things that says it helps you fight off the symptoms if you should contract Covid. But it doesn't stop you from contracting Covid. It just means you'll be asymptomatic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 19, 2021, 10:20:27 PM

Yeah, that is NOT correct, TAC.  Vaccines are designed to reduce transmission and infection, not symptoms.

From the Association of American Medical Colleges:

Quote

“The experts are saying that the vaccines do not reduce transmission, but that is an inaccurate statement,” Gandhi says. “Vaccines have always decreased transmission. What they should be saying is that the clinical trials were not designed to test for asymptomatic infection, but there is every biological reason in the world to believe that they will reduce asymptomatic transmission.”

...

The most convincing evidence, though, is just starting to emerge among real-world data. In Israel, where more than 90% of those age 60 and over have been vaccinated, “cases have plummeted in this population,” Gandhi notes. “Not just hospitalizations, which we expected, but cases [asymptomatic infection] as well.” Moreover, data from vaccinated health care workers recently published in the Lancet and preprint servers show reduced rates of asymptomatic infection and low viral loads in the nose when swabbing after vaccination.

...

"...in a few months, we are going to be able to say with certainty that these vaccines not only protect you, they also protect those around you,” Ranney says.

Source:  https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/6-myths-about-covid-19-vaccines-debunked

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 20, 2021, 05:26:57 AM

OK, but my wife works with someone that tested positive after getting vaccinated.

In the same article there's this..

Can a vaccinated person be around an unvaccinated person without masking? No. “While I’m almost positive that vaccination is going to take away transmission, if you had a little viral RNA in your nose, we would never want a vaccinated person to pass that on to an unvaccinated person,” Gandhi says. “So, mask around the unvaccinated until they are vaccinated too.”

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 20, 2021, 06:09:07 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 20, 2021, 05:26:57 AM

OK, but my wife works with someone that tested positive after getting vaccinated.

In the same article there's this..

Can a vaccinated person be around an unvaccinated person without masking? No. “While I’m almost positive that vaccination is going to take away transmission, if you had a little viral RNA in your nose, we would never want a vaccinated person to pass that on to an unvaccinated person,” Gandhi says. “So, mask around the unvaccinated until they are vaccinated too.”

Hence my it’s not 100%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 20, 2021, 06:10:37 AM

Right! I agreed with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 20, 2021, 06:14:50 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 20, 2021, 06:10:37 AM

Right! I agreed with that.

You said it didn’t do something. I was just saying it does do that thing just not 100%. The vaccine does help reduce catching and spreading covid immensely. Just not perfectly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 20, 2021, 06:20:02 AM

OK, gotcha!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 20, 2021, 06:24:15 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 20, 2021, 06:20:02 AM

OK, gotcha!

It’s like the taclove vaccine. I got that some time ago but I still caught a deadly case of of TACLove.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 20, 2021, 06:28:33 AM

It's lethal! ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 06:53:12 AM

Where's millah when we need him?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 08:38:35 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 19, 2021, 08:32:22 PM

Maybe this is better off in P/R, but I think Maher nails it here about COVID:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp3gy_CLXho

Feeling a fair amount of vindication from that, not going to lie.   I'm also wildly confused since it came from Bill Maher.  ;)

Highlight for me:  "I don't want politics mixed in with my medical decisions."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 20, 2021, 08:40:18 AM

Breakout infections are to be expected and nobody has ever suggested that these vaccines would 100% prevent infection.  So yes, we are going to keep hearing about people getting Covid even after vaccination.  That is where the vaccine efficacy rates come in.  But the point is to prevent severe infection and hospitalization and that is where those efficacy rates are as close to 99% as any vaccine can get you.  Post vaccine Covid from what I'm hearing is like recovering from a bad cold and certainly if you have symptoms you should take precautions not to spread it around.  Stay home.  Wash hands.  Distance from healthy people in your family.

Dr. Monica Gandhi is a badass and you all should follow her if you are on Twitter.  She's an infectious disease doctor who is primarily known for working in the HIV realm.  I'm not sure if this is her latest mash up of the studies she has posted showing decreased risk of asymptomatic spread post vaccine as she updates them weekly.  But it is worth a look.

(https://i.imgur.com/TbRTeyC.png)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 20, 2021, 08:49:26 AM

I enjoyed the Bill Maher clip up and until he used it to continue his diatribe against obese people.  Do we as a country have a problem with obesity?  Of course we do.  Is it as simple as Bill Maher would like you to believe to get a handle on it?  Hey, just stop eating meat, shop at Whole Foods, buy organic *snap* problem solved!  Of course not.

I could write pages on the problems with using BMI as a measure of health.

One could also stop to think about how being overweight can impact a human's ability to receive care in hospital and recover from severe illness.  The problem with obesity and 'overweight' is complicated as anyone on this board who has ever struggled with their weight will undoubtedly be able to tell you.

Maher absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to this issue.  It's just easier to point fingers at the fat guy for getting sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 09:05:04 AM

Have you guys seen this...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680614/

Quote

Hypothesis:

On January 30, 2020, the World Health Organization (WHO) announced a global public health emergency of severe acute respiratory syndrome-coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2) causing illness of coronavirus disease-2019 (COVID-19) [3]. As of October 1, 2020, worldwide 34,166,633 cases were reported and 1,018,876 have died with virus diagnosis. Interestingly, 99% of the detected cases with SARS-CoV-2 are asymptomatic or have mild condition, which contradicts with the virus name (severe acute respiratory syndrome-coronavirus-2) [4]. Although infection fatality rate (number of death cases divided by number of reported cases) initially seems quite high 0.029 (2.9%) [4], this overestimation related to limited number of COVID-19 tests performed which biases towards higher rates. Given the fact that asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times higher than the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate is considerably less than 1% [5]. This was confirmed by the head of National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases from US stating, “the overall clinical consequences of COVID-19 are similar to those of severe seasonal influenza” [5], having a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1% [5], [6], [7], [8]. In addition, data from hospitalized patients with COVID-19 and general public indicate that the majority of deaths were among older and chronically ill individuals, supporting the possibility that the virus may exacerbates existing conditions but rarely causes death by itself [9], [10]. SARS-CoV-2 primarily affects respiratory system and can cause complications such as acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), respiratory failure and death [3], [9]. It is not clear however, what the scientific and clinical basis for wearing facemasks as protective strategy, given the fact that facemasks restrict breathing, causing hypoxemia and hypercapnia and increase the risk for respiratory complications, self-contamination and exacerbation of existing chronic conditions [2], [11], [12], [13], [14].

Of note, hyperoxia or oxygen supplementation (breathing air with high partial O2 pressures that above the sea levels) has been well established as therapeutic and curative practice for variety acute and chronic conditions including respiratory complications [11], [15]. It fact, the current standard of care practice for treating hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is breathing 100% oxygen [16], [17], [18]. Although several countries mandated wearing facemask in health care settings and public areas, scientific evidences are lacking supporting their efficacy for reducing morbidity or mortality associated with infectious or viral diseases [2], [14], [19]. Therefore, it has been hypothesized: 1) the practice of wearing facemasks has compromised safety and efficacy profile, 2) Both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to reduce human-to-human transmission and infectivity of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, 3) Wearing facemasks has adverse physiological and psychological effects, 4) Long-term consequences of wearing facemasks on health are detrimental.

Quote

Conclusion:

The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive intervention for public health.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:15:31 AM

A quick Google search indicated that NCBI, the source for your article, is a "self-curated" database.  i.e., it is a lot like wikipedia in that anyone can post anything there, which means a lot of what is posted there is unreliable.  And since that article somewhat contradicts both research and our experience over the last year, I'm not sure I would be sharing it as if it is authority for something.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 20, 2021, 09:22:58 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:15:31 AM

A quick Google search indicated that NCBI, the source for your article, is a "self-curated" database.  i.e., it is a lot like wikipedia in that anyone can post anything there, which means a lot of what is posted there is unreliable.  And since that article somewhat contradicts both research and our experience over the last year, I'm not sure I would be sharing it as if it is authority for something.

Yup, that article has already been debunked.  My two opposite leaning friends argued quite a bit about it this morning  :lol

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/16/diamond-and-silk/medical-hypotheses-journal-article-lacks-evidence-/ (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/16/diamond-and-silk/medical-hypotheses-journal-article-lacks-evidence-/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:03 AM

And this kind of highlights the problem I have been trying to discuss for the past 2 pages or so:  People find something online, don't bother to fact check it or vet it whatsoever, and spread it as if it is fact.  Seriously, do 5 minutes worth of research to see whether something is possibly legitimate before spreading it!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 09:34:48 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:03 AM

And this kind of highlights the problem I have been trying to discuss for the past 2 pages or so:  People find something online, don't bother to fact check it or vet it whatsoever, and spread it as if it is fact.  Seriously, do 5 minutes worth of research to see whether something is possibly legitimate before spreading it!

And my point is What Science is Truth and What Science is False?

Indigenous People's knew of many things that Science is now beginning to understand. Most of these people know things, but are dismissed as non-science because of Science and proof.

We know that everything on Earth is living. From the dirt, to the rocks, to the birds, to us humans, the air, and the sun. Which is why we treated everything with respect. We understood the Science as to why we treat them with respect. We view them as living beings, while others see them as just a rock...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 09:34:58 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 20, 2021, 08:49:26 AM

I enjoyed the Bill Maher clip up and until he used it to continue his diatribe against obese people.  Do we as a country have a problem with obesity?  Of course we do.  Is it as simple as Bill Maher would like you to believe to get a handle on it?  Hey, just stop eating meat, shop at Whole Foods, buy organic *snap* problem solved!  Of course not.

I could write pages on the problems with using BMI as a measure of health.

One could also stop to think about how being overweight can impact a human's ability to receive care in hospital and recover from severe illness.  The problem with obesity and 'overweight' is complicated as anyone on this board who has ever struggled with their weight will undoubtedly be able to tell you.

Maher absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to this issue.  It's just easier to point fingers at the fat guy for getting sick.

As someone whose BMI indicates they are "obese", I don't disagree with the "it's not that simple" - and many of my responses to Bill Maher generally tend toward the "it's not that simple" - but he does raise some good points consistent with the main point of "medical honesty".   There's an inherent conflict between the ideas of body image as an extension of identity politics and the notion of health.   I also find there to be parallels with that discussion and some of the discussions here about what others should or should not do with their bodies/health.

As one of my pet notions is the rampant insecurity of our nation as a whole, I also think there are parallels there too.  There ARE connections between anxiety and depression and obesity.  I'm not at all pointing fingers or casting blame, but it is a discussion that's worth having, if we - I mean collective, not here - could ever get past the politics of it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:40:11 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 09:34:48 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:03 AM

And this kind of highlights the problem I have been trying to discuss for the past 2 pages or so:  People find something online, don't bother to fact check it or vet it whatsoever, and spread it as if it is fact.  Seriously, do 5 minutes worth of research to see whether something is possibly legitimate before spreading it!

And my point is What Science is Truth and What Science is False?

That is a question, not a point. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 09:40:59 AM

Vocal antimasker/antivaxxers and covid denier Ted Nugent has come out saying he has contracted it. "I felt like I was dying"

It's OK to laugh, right?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 09:51:45 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:40:11 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 09:34:48 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:03 AM

And this kind of highlights the problem I have been trying to discuss for the past 2 pages or so:  People find something online, don't bother to fact check it or vet it whatsoever, and spread it as if it is fact.  Seriously, do 5 minutes worth of research to see whether something is possibly legitimate before spreading it!

And my point is What Science is Truth and What Science is False?

That is a question, not a point. 

My point is in the question...

What Science is Truth, and What Science is false? Who determines this?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 09:55:45 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 09:40:59 AM

Vocal antimasker/antivaxxers and covid denier Ted Nugent has come out saying he has contracted it. "I felt like I was dying"

It's OK to laugh, right?

Well, he knew the risks.  :biggrin:

I am not jumping for joy because a denier got it, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 20, 2021, 10:09:13 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 09:34:58 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 20, 2021, 08:49:26 AM

I enjoyed the Bill Maher clip up and until he used it to continue his diatribe against obese people.  Do we as a country have a problem with obesity?  Of course we do.  Is it as simple as Bill Maher would like you to believe to get a handle on it?  Hey, just stop eating meat, shop at Whole Foods, buy organic *snap* problem solved!  Of course not.

I could write pages on the problems with using BMI as a measure of health.

One could also stop to think about how being overweight can impact a human's ability to receive care in hospital and recover from severe illness.  The problem with obesity and 'overweight' is complicated as anyone on this board who has ever struggled with their weight will undoubtedly be able to tell you.

Maher absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to this issue.  It's just easier to point fingers at the fat guy for getting sick.

As someone whose BMI indicates they are "obese", I don't disagree with the "it's not that simple" - and many of my responses to Bill Maher generally tend toward the "it's not that simple" - but he does raise some good points consistent with the main point of "medical honesty".   There's an inherent conflict between the ideas of body image as an extension of identity politics and the notion of health.   I also find there to be parallels with that discussion and some of the discussions here about what others should or should not do with their bodies/health.

As one of my pet notions is the rampant insecurity of our nation as a whole, I also think there are parallels there too.  There ARE connections between anxiety and depression and obesity.  I'm not at all pointing fingers or casting blame, but it is a discussion that's worth having, if we - I mean collective, not here - could ever get past the politics of it.

I'd be up for that discussion.  I think it is definitely a worthy topic.  I also 100% agree that mental health issues can be associated with overweight and obesity.  That said, I don't believe that shaming people has ever proven to be helpful, which Maher does almost weekly now.

And politics would definitely come into play because the topic is so complex.  Food insecurity is seen as political.  Healthcare disparities is seen as political.  Ag and food subsidies are seen as political.  Lack of nutrition education in our public school curriculum is seen as political.  I'm not sure how one would get around that because having that discussion would definitely need to include all of those things and more.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 10:15:49 AM

I have zero love for Ted Nugent, but I would hope we'd be better than laughing at someone who has COVID.  Maybe that's just me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 20, 2021, 10:18:02 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 10:15:49 AM

I have zero love for Ted Nugent, but I would hope we'd be better than laughing at someone who has COVID.  Maybe that's just me.

I’ll laugh at Ted Nugent for thinking there was Covid 1-18. But not for getting sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 20, 2021, 10:26:15 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 10:15:49 AM

I have zero love for Ted Nugent, but I would hope we'd be better than laughing at someone who has COVID.  Maybe that's just me.

Not laughing here, but am a bit shaking my head because he got it, admits it was bad and still is anti-vax.   ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 11:10:53 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 10:15:49 AM

I have zero love for Ted Nugent, but I would hope we'd be better than laughing at someone who has COVID.  Maybe that's just me.

Believe me, we - collective - are not at all above that.   And the further the right/closer to Trump, the less above we seem to be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 11:28:06 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 11:10:53 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 10:15:49 AM

I have zero love for Ted Nugent, but I would hope we'd be better than laughing at someone who has COVID.  Maybe that's just me.

Believe me, we - collective - are not at all above that.   And the further the right/closer to Trump, the less above we seem to be.

Oh there's plenty of that on the far left too, just look at the aftermath of Limbaugh's death.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 11:49:27 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 11:28:06 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 11:10:53 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 10:15:49 AM

I have zero love for Ted Nugent, but I would hope we'd be better than laughing at someone who has COVID.  Maybe that's just me.

Believe me, we - collective - are not at all above that.   And the further the right/closer to Trump, the less above we seem to be.

Oh there's plenty of that on the far left too, just look at the aftermath of Limbaugh's death.

That's what I meant; I should have added "the target is" after Trump.  In fact, I was actually thinking about Limbaugh when I wrote it (that and the people that attended the Trump rallies that got sick).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 20, 2021, 11:54:26 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:40:11 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 09:34:48 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:03 AM

And this kind of highlights the problem I have been trying to discuss for the past 2 pages or so:  People find something online, don't bother to fact check it or vet it whatsoever, and spread it as if it is fact.  Seriously, do 5 minutes worth of research to see whether something is possibly legitimate before spreading it!

And my point is What Science is Truth and What Science is False?

That is a question, not a point.

OK - if it's false then it's not science. Can someone give me an example of false science?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 12:05:13 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 11:49:27 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 11:28:06 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 11:10:53 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 10:15:49 AM

I have zero love for Ted Nugent, but I would hope we'd be better than laughing at someone who has COVID.  Maybe that's just me.

Believe me, we - collective - are not at all above that.   And the further the right/closer to Trump, the less above we seem to be.

Oh there's plenty of that on the far left too, just look at the aftermath of Limbaugh's death.

That's what I meant; I should have added "the target is" after Trump.  In fact, I was actually thinking about Limbaugh when I wrote it (that and the people that attended the Trump rallies that got sick).

Both sides are capable of it, I saw more than a good share of shitty behavior after RGB's passing on the Trump groups I used to troll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 12:10:45 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 12:05:13 PM

Both sides are capable of it, I saw more than a good share of shitty behavior after RGB's passing on the Trump groups I used to troll.

Yeah, I don't get this love some have for dancing on someone's grave.  It was shitty when some did it for Ginsburg, just like it was shitty when some did it for Scalia.  I think Ted Cruz is a scumbag of the highest order, but I wouldn't laugh or celebrate if he got by a bus today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 20, 2021, 12:20:30 PM

Celebrating someone's death is perfectly warranted at times.


Americans on both sides singing the National Anthem outside of the White House when it was announced Bin Laden was killed. 100% justified, imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHpwNbqK_4g 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 12:24:57 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 12:10:45 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 12:05:13 PM

Both sides are capable of it, I saw more than a good share of shitty behavior after RGB's passing on the Trump groups I used to troll.

Yeah, I don't get this love some have for dancing on someone's grave.  It was shitty when some did it for Ginsburg, just like it was shitty when some did it for Scalia.  I think Ted Cruz is a scumbag of the highest order, but I wouldn't laugh or celebrate if he got by a bus today.

It was shitty when they did it for Limbaugh, and he was about as close to pond scum as a human could get.


On the other hand, Nugent is going to survive, so it is kinda funny in an ironic way he got covid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 12:39:30 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:03 AM

And this kind of highlights the problem I have been trying to discuss for the past 2 pages or so:  People find something online, don't bother to fact check it or vet it whatsoever, and spread it as if it is fact.  Seriously, do 5 minutes worth of research to see whether something is possibly legitimate before spreading it!

Well - and I say this as a colleague - there's a skill to researching things.  I know my skeptic meter is on fairly sensitive settings, and even I will look through things and be momentarily unsure whether it's legit or not.  Then you have the people that see it on Twitter and assume it's true.   Then you have the myths that seem to snowball and take hold AS IF they are true.

My kid is in college, and a very bright student (4.0 last semester).   I get, no lie, at least three texts a week about SOMETHING that is confusing to her in terms of popular "opinion" (in quotes because there are simply too many people that do not acknowledge that "because they think it" doesn't make it correct) versus the facts she's encountering.  To my credit, I try NOT to give her my answer, but rather point her in the direction of figuring out herself, but that's not always possible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 12:45:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 12:24:57 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 12:10:45 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 12:05:13 PM

Both sides are capable of it, I saw more than a good share of shitty behavior after RGB's passing on the Trump groups I used to troll.

Yeah, I don't get this love some have for dancing on someone's grave.  It was shitty when some did it for Ginsburg, just like it was shitty when some did it for Scalia.  I think Ted Cruz is a scumbag of the highest order, but I wouldn't laugh or celebrate if he got by a bus today.

It was shitty when they did it for Limbaugh, and he was about as close to pond scum as a human could get.


On the other hand, Nugent is going to survive, so it is kinda funny in an ironic way he got covid.

Oh yeah. It's funny because he was spewing these points, and then got it. But it's not funny he caught it and felt like he was going to die.

It's not really that funny either, because Anyone can get it.

If he had died, I would say "Well, I am sure he knew and understood the consequences of getting Covid"

But, is this situation all on him for catching covid? or is it the ones like him that is to blame? And is he even blaming the people like him for him catching Covid?....That's what would be really interesting to know...If Ted Blames Ted for catching Covid, or the other people like him?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 12:54:28 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

But "shitty things they said" are in the eye of the beholder, no?    How many of the things that Limbaugh said were shitty on their face, and how many were shitty because they spoke to a different truth?   To my reckoning, referring to the latter is just grave dancing, personally.  One either respects someone else's humanity (that is, their state of being human, which is the essence of tolerance) or one doesn't, and that speaks to that person, not the someone else.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 20, 2021, 12:54:56 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

Sure it is but how about not commentating about it as soon as the news breaks.  A little grace period should be at least honored. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 20, 2021, 01:26:45 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 20, 2021, 12:54:56 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

Sure it is but how about not commentating about it as soon as the news breaks.  A little grace period should be at least honored.

This goes back to the Kobe discussion last year  :lol 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 01:48:45 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 12:39:30 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:03 AM

And this kind of highlights the problem I have been trying to discuss for the past 2 pages or so:  People find something online, don't bother to fact check it or vet it whatsoever, and spread it as if it is fact.  Seriously, do 5 minutes worth of research to see whether something is possibly legitimate before spreading it!

Well - and I say this as a colleague - there's a skill to researching things.  I know my skeptic meter is on fairly sensitive settings, and even I will look through things and be momentarily unsure whether it's legit or not.  Then you have the people that see it on Twitter and assume it's true.   Then you have the myths that seem to snowball and take hold AS IF they are true.

My kid is in college, and a very bright student (4.0 last semester).   I get, no lie, at least three texts a week about SOMETHING that is confusing to her in terms of popular "opinion" (in quotes because there are simply too many people that do not acknowledge that "because they think it" doesn't make it correct) versus the facts she's encountering.  To my credit, I try NOT to give her my answer, but rather point her in the direction of figuring out herself, but that's not always possible.

Thing is, I didn't present it as fact. I just said "Have You Guys Seen This". I didn't declare it as factual. I just said look at this. And yet, people assumed I was presenting it as fact.

Whether you took that as fact is not on me...I just said look...

And it's also good to know that this site proved it false. But it doesn't help when people wonder, who is fact checking the fact checkers? And it goes on and on and on...

I guess my question is....What makes "Authentic" Science?

And my point being, you can have doctors saying things, even though they are not in that field. But, does that make them wrong? Who is to say they also didn't learn about it while reading those Medical Books doctors learn from. They can possibly know and understand something in the medical field that isn't their field of expertise.

Also, back then, and I posted this in the political/religious thread, these "Experts" and "Professionals" did these experiments to the Canadian Indigenous people...

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/unreserved/how-food-in-canada-is-tied-to-land-language-community-and-colonization-1.5989764/the-dark-history-of-canada-s-food-guide-how-experiments-on-indigenous-children-shaped-nutrition-policy-1.5989785?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

Quote

A justification for these experiments, explained Mosby, was a theory going around among scientists and bureaucrats that the so-called "Indian problem" might have been caused by malnutrition and not due to what they saw as "racial traits."

"They took the extremely racist idea that Indigenous peoples were somehow racially inferior, and they suggested that might have had to do with nutrition. And so they took it upon themselves to solve this 'Indian problem' through expert intervention into Indigenous people's diets."

....

"The nature of the experiments that [Pett] conducted in residential schools was determined based on a whole series of internal debates among nutrition professionals and bureaucrats about Canada's Food Guide and about what a healthy and nutritionally adequate diet looked like."

Which led to our high rate of conditions susceptible to covid

Quote

"What happened to me because of these experiments?" is a question that Mosby has heard from many residential school survivors.

Following the publication of Mosby's 2013 article which revealed that nutritional experiments were conducted in Indigenous communities and on students in residential schools, Mosby co-authored an article that investigated the long-term health impacts of the widespread malnutrition and hunger experienced in residential schools.

''Hunger was never absent': How residential school diets shaped current patterns of diabetes among Indigenous peoples in Canada' was published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal in 2017 and was co-authored by Mosby and Tracey Galloway, an anthropology professor at the University of Toronto .

"We found that the food served in residential schools, that the level of hunger experienced by kids, had long term health effects not just on survivors themselves, but also on their children."

"The long term impact of that kind of hunger during childhood leads to a whole series of problems, starting with stunting and kids not reaching their growth potential, but leading to a higher incidence of type 2 diabetes, a tendency toward obesity later in life, and a whole range of problems that sort of cascade from there."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 20, 2021, 01:50:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 12:54:28 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

But "shitty things they said" are in the eye of the beholder, no?

No.  Sometimes a racist asshole is just a racist asshole.  (https://newsone.com/16051/top-10-racist-limbaugh-quotes/) <-- can you defend ANY of that with a straight face?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 20, 2021, 02:04:15 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 20, 2021, 01:26:45 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 20, 2021, 12:54:56 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

Sure it is but how about not commentating about it as soon as the news breaks.  A little grace period should be at least honored.

This goes back to the Kobe discussion last year  :lol

Seriously. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 02:09:47 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 20, 2021, 01:50:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 12:54:28 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

But "shitty things they said" are in the eye of the beholder, no?

No.  Sometimes a racist asshole is just a racist asshole.  (https://newsone.com/16051/top-10-racist-limbaugh-quotes/) <-- can you defend ANY of that with a straight face?

That's a good reason why the Christians and Catholics say..."He's burning in hell fire with pitchforks being stabbed up his butt" :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 20, 2021, 02:53:56 PM

Christians and Catholics?   :o


What are you trying to imply  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 20, 2021, 03:20:25 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 20, 2021, 12:54:56 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

Sure it is but how about not commentating about it as soon as the news breaks.  A little grace period should be at least honored.

Totally agree.  Now, if we are talking about a mass murderer like Bin Laden, that is a different ball game of course, but immediately dancing on the grave of someone just because you disagree with them politically for example, ala Ginsburg or Scalia, is just poor form. 

Quote from: cramx3 on April 20, 2021, 01:26:45 PM

This goes back to the Kobe discussion last year  :lol

Yep. https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54762.0

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 07:30:35 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 09:40:59 AM

Vocal antimasker/antivaxxers and covid denier Ted Nugent has come out saying he has contracted it. "I felt like I was dying"

It's OK to laugh, right?

At this point, I'm for whatever it takes to get the antivaxxers and covid-deniers to get over themselves and take the shot. We're never going to be through this thing if people don't wisen up. If that means making an example of high profile people hilariously self-owning themselves, fine by me. If you're eligible and have available appointments getting a fatal case of COVID is starting to look like a personal choice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 21, 2021, 07:58:00 AM

My cousin is petrified of getting the covid shots.  He has so many phobias.  My wife, brother, sis in law and myself are trying to talk him into getting the shots.  Sunday he started to babble about the 6 females getting blood clots.  I stopped him nd told him you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than getting the blood clots yet you drive daily.

Still didn't click for him though. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 21, 2021, 08:04:42 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 21, 2021, 07:58:00 AM

My cousin is petrified of getting the covid shots.  He has so many phobias.  My wife, brother, sis in law and myself are trying to talk him into getting the shots.  Sunday he started to babble about the 6 females getting blood clots.  I stopped him nd told him you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than getting the blood clots yet you drive daily.

Still didn't click for him though.

Phobias are tough. I had a fear of flying for years. Didn't get in a plane for 15 years. The car accident statistics didn't do anything for me either.
Once the plane was in the air, there's no turning back. Once he has his shot, there's no turning back for him. I feel bad for him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 21, 2021, 08:11:12 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 20, 2021, 12:45:23 PM

Oh yeah. It's funny because he was spewing these points, and then got it. But it's not funny he caught it and felt like he was going to die.

It's not really that funny either, because Anyone can get it.

If he had died, I would say "Well, I am sure he knew and understood the consequences of getting Covid"

But, is this situation all on him for catching covid? or is it the ones like him that is to blame? And is he even blaming the people like him for him catching Covid?....That's what would be really interesting to know...If Ted Blames Ted for catching Covid, or the other people like him?

He believed the virus and the vaccine were hoaxes and wrote smack about it last year so I wonder how someone who dismisses this as a hoax would "understand the consequences" of something he doesn't believe exists. It does not compute..... ???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 21, 2021, 09:18:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 21, 2021, 08:04:42 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 21, 2021, 07:58:00 AM

My cousin is petrified of getting the covid shots.  He has so many phobias.  My wife, brother, sis in law and myself are trying to talk him into getting the shots.  Sunday he started to babble about the 6 females getting blood clots.  I stopped him nd told him you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than getting the blood clots yet you drive daily.

Still didn't click for him though.

Phobias are tough. I had a fear of flying for years. Didn't get in a plane for 15 years. The car accident statistics didn't do anything for me either.
Once the plane was in the air, there's no turning back. Once he has his shot, there's no turning back for him. I feel bad for him.

I do too.  He had so many issues right now.  You can actually see him tense up.  I try not to push hard but talk reason with him.  My brother on the other hand is like a hammer with him.  I take the different tact with him.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 21, 2021, 10:28:14 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 20, 2021, 01:50:18 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 20, 2021, 12:54:28 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 20, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

this is kind off topic but fwiw I think that when reflecting on someone’s legacy when they die then all the shitty things they said and did are absolutely on the table.   I wouldn’t call that dancing on their grave necessarily.

But "shitty things they said" are in the eye of the beholder, no?

No.  Sometimes a racist asshole is just a racist asshole.  (https://newsone.com/16051/top-10-racist-limbaugh-quotes/) <-- can you defend ANY of that with a straight face?

Of course not; some/most of those statements are indefensible on any level.  (By the way, NOT a fan of Rush Limbaugh in any way; I don't like his politics, I don't like his tactics, and I don't like his demeanor.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 21, 2021, 10:30:01 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 21, 2021, 08:04:42 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 21, 2021, 07:58:00 AM

My cousin is petrified of getting the covid shots.  He has so many phobias.  My wife, brother, sis in law and myself are trying to talk him into getting the shots.  Sunday he started to babble about the 6 females getting blood clots.  I stopped him nd told him you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than getting the blood clots yet you drive daily.

Still didn't click for him though.

Phobias are tough. I had a fear of flying for years. Didn't get in a plane for 15 years. The car accident statistics didn't do anything for me either.
Once the plane was in the air, there's no turning back. Once he has his shot, there's no turning back for him. I feel bad for him.

That's the thing about phobias; no facts, no logic, no reason in the world is enough to overcome it. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2021, 10:34:40 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 21, 2021, 10:30:01 AM

Quote from: TAC on April 21, 2021, 08:04:42 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 21, 2021, 07:58:00 AM

My cousin is petrified of getting the covid shots.  He has so many phobias.  My wife, brother, sis in law and myself are trying to talk him into getting the shots.  Sunday he started to babble about the 6 females getting blood clots.  I stopped him nd told him you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than getting the blood clots yet you drive daily.

Still didn't click for him though.

Phobias are tough. I had a fear of flying for years. Didn't get in a plane for 15 years. The car accident statistics didn't do anything for me either.
Once the plane was in the air, there's no turning back. Once he has his shot, there's no turning back for him. I feel bad for him.

That's the thing about phobias; no facts, no logic, no reason in the world is enough to overcome it.

Mostly true. However, if the person really wants to get over then, the therapy involved is usually pretty straight forward and easy. Well, easy for the therapist at least haha.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2021, 11:15:28 AM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 07:30:35 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 09:40:59 AM

Vocal antimasker/antivaxxers and covid denier Ted Nugent has come out saying he has contracted it. "I felt like I was dying"

It's OK to laugh, right?

At this point, I'm for whatever it takes to get the antivaxxers and covid-deniers to get over themselves and take the shot. We're never going to be through this thing if people don't wisen up. If that means making an example of high profile people hilariously self-owning themselves, fine by me. If you're eligible and have available appointments getting a fatal case of COVID is starting to look like a personal choice.

I got a better idea.  How bout all the people concerning themselves about the choices of others should get over themselves.  You're right, it's an individual's personal choice.  You can't make someone get the vaccine if they don't want to.  Just like you can't make someone quit smoking or stop eating junk food because it could kill them.  If you made a personal choice to get vaccinated, that is your only concern because everything else is out of your control.  So, why bitch n moan about it?  Oh, BTW "wisen" is not a word.  Wise up.  :p

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 11:31:57 AM

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 21, 2021, 11:15:28 AM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 07:30:35 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 20, 2021, 09:40:59 AM

Vocal antimasker/antivaxxers and covid denier Ted Nugent has come out saying he has contracted it. "I felt like I was dying"

It's OK to laugh, right?

At this point, I'm for whatever it takes to get the antivaxxers and covid-deniers to get over themselves and take the shot. We're never going to be through this thing if people don't wisen up. If that means making an example of high profile people hilariously self-owning themselves, fine by me. If you're eligible and have available appointments getting a fatal case of COVID is starting to look like a personal choice.

I got a better idea.  How bout all the people concerning themselves about the choices of others should get over themselves.  You're right, it's an individual's personal choice.  You can't make someone get the vaccine if they don't want to.  Just like you can't make someone quit smoking or stop eating junk food because it could kill them.  If you made a personal choice to get vaccinated, that is your only concern because everything else is out of your control.  So, why bitch n moan about it?  Oh, BTW "wisen" is not a word.  Wise up.  :p

I've been saying for months that the worst thing about Covid, besides the deaths, is that suddenly everyone thinks your private information is their business and they get to judge you harshly for disagreeing with them. Not wearing a mask? You're a selfish, horrible human being instead of maybe a person with a medical or psychological condition that won't allow it. Not getting the vaccine? Again, you're a selfish, horrible human being instead of someone who has a different view about what goes in their body, or maybe a medical or ethical reason for not getting it. Stop looking for someone else to blame or shame and mind you own business, worry about yourselves, make the choices you view as being best for you, and move on with your life.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 21, 2021, 11:33:57 AM

And round and round we go .... yet again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2021, 11:48:36 AM

I feel like this virus has really brought us all together.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 21, 2021, 12:21:21 PM

Forgot the green text there, Adami.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 21, 2021, 12:41:48 PM

I like cupcakes  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 21, 2021, 12:42:56 PM

Hopefully you also like the frosting and all the anti-frosters can go to their own bakery!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 21, 2021, 12:45:02 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 21, 2021, 12:42:56 PM

Hopefully you also like the frosting and all the anti-frosters can go to their own bakery!

That's Un-American not to like frosting.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 21, 2021, 12:49:37 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 21, 2021, 12:45:02 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 21, 2021, 12:42:56 PM

Hopefully you also like the frosting and all the anti-frosters can go to their own bakery!

That's Un-American not to like frosting.  :lol

I agree, but it's a personal choice. People should not be shamed to have frosting.


Plus...the science:
https://www.isitbadforyou.com/questions/is-frosting-bad-for-you

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 21, 2021, 12:59:53 PM

Anything that tastes good is bad for you.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 21, 2021, 03:44:37 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Okay, but using that rationale, since a public forum like this is now considered, well, public, if someone opines here, "I'll bet I can I can drink six cases of beer tonight and be just fine tomorrow," and then dies of alcohol poisoning, can we all come in tomorrow and laugh at how a stupid opinion led to their stupid behavior and then their eventual death? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:19:43 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 21, 2021, 03:44:37 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Okay, but using that rationale, since a public forum like this is now considered, well, public, if someone opines here, "I'll bet I can I can drink six cases of beer tonight and be just fine tomorrow," and then dies of alcohol poisoning, can we all come in tomorrow and laugh at how a stupid opinion led to their stupid behavior and then their eventual death?

I mean, is it King? Cause I feel like he’d survive that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 21, 2021, 04:29:04 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 11:48:36 AM

I feel like this virus has really brought us all together.

Someone's not social distancing!  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 04:37:51 PM

I honestly don't think I would laugh at that. But nobody here is as hilarious as Rush Limbaugh or Ted nugent, either. So it's hard to make the comparison.

I will say I laughed at John Schaefer getting thrown into prison. Maybe that makes me a bad person and I should talk to my therapist about it lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:38:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 21, 2021, 04:29:04 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 11:48:36 AM

I feel like this virus has really brought us all together.

Someone's not social distancing!  ;D

DON’T JUDGE ME!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 21, 2021, 04:52:31 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:38:38 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 21, 2021, 04:29:04 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 11:48:36 AM

I feel like this virus has really brought us all together.

Someone's not social distancing!  ;D

DON’T JUDGE ME!!

I can't help judging a man who flaunts a cold infused Madagascan vanilla milk. In a cookie shot glass.

Yes, I'm envious and vindictive.   :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

I don't think it's so much about individualism versus community. It's more about both sides thinking their way is the best way for the community and thinking the other side is stupid for thinking otherwise. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle, but heaven forbid we actually listen to each other and compromise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2021, 07:57:04 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

I don't think it's so much about individualism versus community. It's more about both sides thinking their way is the best way for the community and thinking the other side is stupid for thinking otherwise. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle, but heaven forbid we actually listen to each other and compromise.

I just meant the “mind your business and live your own life.” Thats based on individualistic ethics. Which is valid but it might not apply to how everyone thinks or feels. But I agree about compromise and not being dicks.

Unless you don’t like frosting on your cupcake. Then you can piss right off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:59:52 PM

Aren't cupcakes without frosting just muffins?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 21, 2021, 08:00:54 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:59:52 PM

Aren't cupcakes without frosting just muffins?

Technically, no. They're abominations.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 21, 2021, 10:53:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 08:00:54 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:59:52 PM

Aren't cupcakes without frosting just muffins?

Technically, no. They're abominations.

Aren't those just two different spellings of the same word?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 06:45:50 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 21, 2021, 10:53:56 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 08:00:54 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:59:52 PM

Aren't cupcakes without frosting just muffins?

Technically, no. They're abominations.

Aren't those just two different spellings of the same word?

As an English major, I can confirm this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 09:28:29 AM

Update: everyone in my nuclear family has now received their first Pfizer shot, so we're halfway there.  My wife and I have our second shots next week.

In addition, my daughter's fiance has had his first shot.  My mother and brother have both already been fully vaccinated.

So, we're doing our part.  I wish that everyone else would do theirs, too, but if wishes were fishes, we'd all be swimming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:36:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

I don't think it's so much about individualism versus community. It's more about both sides thinking their way is the best way for the community and thinking the other side is stupid for thinking otherwise. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle, but heaven forbid we actually listen to each other and compromise.

Which is where I stand; there's nothing funny about EITHER side.  It's all sort of sad, really.  Yeah, we all think we're "right", but we seem to forget that the people that disagree with us are EQUALLY convinced they are right and WE'RE the stupid ones.  At the end of the day, that means the answer is less about who is ACTUALLY right (and the reality is, it's never 100-0, but some degree of 50-50) than who has the loudest voice or the microphone at any given moment.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:45:43 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 09:28:29 AM

Update: everyone in my nuclear family has now received their first Pfizer shot, so we're halfway there.  My wife and I have our second shots next week.

In addition, my daughter's fiance has had his first shot.  My mother and brother have both already been fully vaccinated.

So, we're doing our part.  I wish that everyone else would do theirs, too, but if wishes were fishes, we'd all be swimming.

Most of my family is one or two in now (I got my second on Monday, as did my daughter and mom and dad, though all by coincidence in different states).   It's an odd feeling; I sort of have that same feeling of, say, getting to the bottom of the double black diamond ski-slope, or landing after a bumpy airplane flight.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 09:46:52 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:45:43 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 09:28:29 AM

Update: everyone in my nuclear family has now received their first Pfizer shot, so we're halfway there.  My wife and I have our second shots next week.

In addition, my daughter's fiance has had his first shot.  My mother and brother have both already been fully vaccinated.

So, we're doing our part.  I wish that everyone else would do theirs, too, but if wishes were fishes, we'd all be swimming.

Most of my family is one or two in now (I got my second on Monday, as did my daughter and mom and dad, though all by coincidence in different states).   It's an odd feeling; I sort of have that same feeling of, say, getting to the bottom of the double black diamond ski-slope, or landing after a bumpy airplane flight.

I get that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 09:52:28 AM

Most of my family is done with the shots as well.  Younger brother needs a second shot, and little sister/her husband are the only ones left otherwise.  Sadly, I'm not sure they will get them as they are anti-vaxxers.  I don't expect to be able to convince them, but as long as my parents are safe then I'm not worried about the family as a whole anymore.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:57:16 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 09:52:28 AM

Most of my family is done with the shots as well.  Younger brother needs a second shot, and little sister/her husband are the only ones left otherwise.  Sadly, I'm not sure they will get them as they are anti-vaxxers.  I don't expect to be able to convince them, but as long as my parents are safe then I'm not worried about the family as a whole anymore.

My brother is not "anti-vax" in the Jenny McCarthy sense of the word, but he has opted NOT to get the vaccine at this time.  I talked with him briefly last week, and it was an odd conversation.  He's none of the stereotypes.  He's not in denial, he's not oblivious to the greater issues at stake, he's not ignorant of the science... he just does not want to be vaccinated at this time.   I don't know that there's anything I can or should say at that point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 22, 2021, 10:11:19 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:57:16 AM

My brother is not "anti-vax" in the Jenny McCarthy sense of the word, but he has opted NOT to get the vaccine at this time.  I talked with him briefly last week, and it was an odd conversation.  He's none of the stereotypes.  He's not in denial, he's not oblivious to the greater issues at stake, he's not ignorant of the science... he just does not want to be vaccinated at this time.   I don't know that there's anything I can or should say at that point.

My older brother is the same way.  Has zero interest in getting it, which is why when our younger brother sent the "get down here before they close" text to get the first shot 19 days ago, I hopped in my car right away and didn't even ask my older brother (who I talk to all the time) because I knew he wouldn't go and I didn't want to lose time and miss the cutoff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:57:16 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 09:52:28 AM

Most of my family is done with the shots as well.  Younger brother needs a second shot, and little sister/her husband are the only ones left otherwise.  Sadly, I'm not sure they will get them as they are anti-vaxxers.  I don't expect to be able to convince them, but as long as my parents are safe then I'm not worried about the family as a whole anymore.

My brother is not "anti-vax" in the Jenny McCarthy sense of the word, but he has opted NOT to get the vaccine at this time.  I talked with him briefly last week, and it was an odd conversation.  He's none of the stereotypes.  He's not in denial, he's not oblivious to the greater issues at stake, he's not ignorant of the science... he just does not want to be vaccinated at this time.   I don't know that there's anything I can or should say at that point.

My sister is legit anti-vax.  It's very concerning not so much for her, she got her vaccines as a child under my parents care.  But she has two young girls who aren't getting any vaccines.  I'm not talking about the covid vaccine either.  This is very concerning for me, but there's nothing I can do and there's no science or data I can show her to convince her.  In terms of covid, it doesn't help that she has been constantly exposed and yet never tested positive, so she likely also has a feeling of invincibility.

In other vaccine news, there's a bad trend happening where we vaccines given per day is trending down.  Even with all of the US open for anyone over 16 to get it now, people don't seem to be lining up like one might expect.  It seems the resistance is quite strong, maybe stronger than I had thought. 

Having said that, I'm starting to feel like once the vaccines administered starts to really twindle down to the point where everyone who wants one has gotten one, I say we really need to start fully opening up.  We can't let the resistance drive society.  They will have made their choice and it seems they are all good with that choice so we should open up and what happens, happens (generally, of course things can change).  I just don't want to see our politicians holding society back because everyone isn't vaccinated or if we don't meet the goals to get the % to herd immunity levels. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 22, 2021, 11:19:48 AM

Just got back from getting my son his first Pfizer dose. He's 17 so that is the only one he can get right now. Kind of an odd site. The whole thing is run by the Army. It was very efficient, I must say. In and out in no time. Longest part was the 15 minute 'see if you die' period. For that, we got to sit in the basketball stadium at NIU and watch women's volleyball on the jumbotron. Not too shabby.

My daughter goes on Monday to the same place to get her first Moderna shot. Wife got her second this past Monday so she is all good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 11:26:26 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:57:16 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 09:52:28 AM

Most of my family is done with the shots as well.  Younger brother needs a second shot, and little sister/her husband are the only ones left otherwise.  Sadly, I'm not sure they will get them as they are anti-vaxxers.  I don't expect to be able to convince them, but as long as my parents are safe then I'm not worried about the family as a whole anymore.

My brother is not "anti-vax" in the Jenny McCarthy sense of the word, but he has opted NOT to get the vaccine at this time.  I talked with him briefly last week, and it was an odd conversation.  He's none of the stereotypes.  He's not in denial, he's not oblivious to the greater issues at stake, he's not ignorant of the science... he just does not want to be vaccinated at this time.   I don't know that there's anything I can or should say at that point.

My sister is legit anti-vax.  It's very concerning not so much for her, she got her vaccines as a child under my parents care.  But she has two young girls who aren't getting any vaccines.  I'm not talking about the covid vaccine either.  This is very concerning for me, but there's nothing I can do and there's no science or data I can show her to convince her.  In terms of covid, it doesn't help that she has been constantly exposed and yet never tested positive, so she likely also has a feeling of invincibility.

In other vaccine news, there's a bad trend happening where we vaccines given per day is trending down.  Even with all of the US open for anyone over 16 to get it now, people don't seem to be lining up like one might expect.  It seems the resistance is quite strong, maybe stronger than I had thought. 

Having said that, I'm starting to feel like once the vaccines administered starts to really twindle down to the point where everyone who wants one has gotten one, I say we really need to start fully opening up.  We can't let the resistance drive society.  They will have made their choice and it seems they are all good with that choice so we should open up and what happens, happens (generally, of course things can change).  I just don't want to see our politicians holding society back because everyone isn't vaccinated or if we don't meet the goals to get the % to herd immunity levels.

Since Monday, my college friends and I - we're ALL getting or have gotten the shot - have scheduled our first official "out, at a bar" happy hour next weekend and I frankly cannot wait.  And, I bought my first concert tickets in over 18 months!   I'm going to see Gov't Mule and Ann Wilson; what a way to break the shneid!   I'm a huge GM fan, but never got to see them, and I'm just DYING to see Ann Wilson sing live (I had the chance to see one of her solo shows from the second row a couple years back and turned it down because it was like $160 and the set was more "songbook" than her normal Heart catalogue and I wasn't thrilled with that).   

If I get arrested from running on stage and trying to tell her I love her, someone have my bail on hand! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 22, 2021, 11:26:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

In other vaccine news, there's a bad trend happening where we vaccines given per day is trending down.  Even with all of the US open for anyone over 16 to get it now, people don't seem to be lining up like one might expect.  It seems the resistance is quite strong, maybe stronger than I had thought. 

I wonder if that could be because people are waiting for dose number two. There's a number of places I could walk into in CT now with no appointment and get a shot if I needed the first one. There's nothing more I can do until the 30th when enough time has gone by between doses. A big chunk of the population got their shots in the same 1-2 week window, and now we're all playing the waiting game.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 11:38:17 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 22, 2021, 11:26:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

In other vaccine news, there's a bad trend happening where we vaccines given per day is trending down.  Even with all of the US open for anyone over 16 to get it now, people don't seem to be lining up like one might expect.  It seems the resistance is quite strong, maybe stronger than I had thought. 

I wonder if that could be because people are waiting for dose number two. There's a number of places I could walk into in CT now with no appointment and get a shot if I needed the first one. There's nothing more I can do until the 30th when enough time has gone by between doses. A big chunk of the population got their shots in the same 1-2 week window, and now we're all playing the waiting game.

About 50% of adults have already received dose one, so I don't think it's that. The number doesn't seem high enough to be just about waiting for shot 2.  An article I read earlier's guess was while a lot of people aren't "anti-vax" there's a significant that are still just waiting to see how things play out and the negative news with J&J last week likely added to people's hesitancy, and IMO some of the words Fauci says and the way he acts doesn't really encourage people to get the shot.  By that, I mean, he still doesn't do anything normal after being vaccinated and still says we should all mask up (which I agree, until a point).  If he would just go out to a restaurant and say "I feel safe" I think it would go a long way in convincing people to get a shot. 

And also, I feel like if Trump would speak out positively it would encourage people as well.  He got the shot, secretly, and maybe I'm just missing it because he's banned from social media but I haven't heard of any reports of him speaking out for the vaccine lately. I've tried pushing the "well Trump got it" card to a couple of my far right Trump loving friends who are anti-vax.  Their response is "he's old" and my go back is "well he also already got covid and STILL got the shot" that kind of ends the conversation. But as I alluded about my sister, there's a portion of the population that cannot be convinced. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 22, 2021, 11:48:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:36:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

I don't think it's so much about individualism versus community. It's more about both sides thinking their way is the best way for the community and thinking the other side is stupid for thinking otherwise. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle, but heaven forbid we actually listen to each other and compromise.

Which is where I stand; there's nothing funny about EITHER side.  It's all sort of sad, really.  Yeah, we all think we're "right", but we seem to forget that the people that disagree with us are EQUALLY convinced they are right and WE'RE the stupid ones.  At the end of the day, that means the answer is less about who is ACTUALLY right (and the reality is, it's never 100-0, but some degree of 50-50) than who has the loudest voice or the microphone at any given moment.   

Also, we don't know whether these decisions were right or wrong until later on as time goes on. Decades later even, do people realize, that decision was the best decision we could have made or that was the worst decision we ever made, and have to face either consequences for that decision.

Our decisions affect our future generations. We might not be alive to see the consequences of our decisions, but our children will and they are the ones that will have to live with it.

It's why you have to look how all these things will affect the children when they become adults. Same as how 9/11 affects us children that are adults today around the age of 30.


So that's just the thing. We don't know....And that is why I am taking a step back and just watching it. Because later down the line, everything will be fine, it has always been alright and we humans have survived. Throughout all of history and the things we have to face, this is just another one of them, only it's our time to shine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2021, 12:09:39 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 22, 2021, 11:48:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:36:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

I don't think it's so much about individualism versus community. It's more about both sides thinking their way is the best way for the community and thinking the other side is stupid for thinking otherwise. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle, but heaven forbid we actually listen to each other and compromise.

Which is where I stand; there's nothing funny about EITHER side.  It's all sort of sad, really.  Yeah, we all think we're "right", but we seem to forget that the people that disagree with us are EQUALLY convinced they are right and WE'RE the stupid ones.  At the end of the day, that means the answer is less about who is ACTUALLY right (and the reality is, it's never 100-0, but some degree of 50-50) than who has the loudest voice or the microphone at any given moment.   

Also, we don't know whether these decisions were right or wrong until later on as time goes on. Decades later even, do people realize, that decision was the best decision we could have made or that was the worst decision we ever made, and have to face either consequences for that decision.

Our decisions affect our future generations. We might not be alive to see the consequences of our decisions, but our children will and they are the ones that will have to live with it.

It's why you have to look how all these things will affect the children when they become adults. Same as how 9/11 affects us children that are adults today around the age of 30.


So that's just the thing. We don't know....And that is why I am taking a step back and just watching it. Because later down the line, everything will be fine, it has always been alright and we humans have survived. Throughout all of history and the things we have to face, this is just another one of them, only it's our time to shine.

I dunno - if you choose not to get the vaccine and then get covid, it seems to reason that if this happens, it ain't gonna take "decades" to figure you made the wrong decision.  ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on April 22, 2021, 12:13:53 PM

There are any number of health professionals you can talk to in order to help you make the best decision for you and your family. Nothing is every certain and nothing is ever guaranteed but I really don't get this "is it good for me? is it bad for me? who knows..... if only there was some way to find out..." mindset.

Go talk to your doctor. If you don't like what your doctor says, go talk to another doctor. Talk to as many healthcare professionals as it takes to get the answers to all of your questions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 22, 2021, 12:25:23 PM

The "we don't know" approach sounds a little like a cop out to me.  No offense, but there are dozens of things we do every day that "we don't know" what the long term effects will be but we do them anyway.  We don't know the long term effects of _______________________ <--I can insert a 100 items here and cite "we don't know the long term effects" as my reason for not doing it.


Metal detector?  We don't know the long term effects of going through metal detectors at airports.  They've only been around for about 50 years.  What if they kill you after 55 years?


Ear buds?  They've only been around for about 30 years.  How do we know they won't make you completely deaf after using them for 40 years?  Answer: we don't know


Does that mean I avoid using ear buds? 


I mean a vaccine for a respiratory illness is not reinventing the wheel here.  We already use vaccines for 100's of illnesses including other respiratory illnesses.   Yeah, I don't know what the long term effect of eating Cheerios will be after 65 years because they were only invented 57 years ago, should I stop eating them because "we don't know" ?


Here's what I think: Some people are young and they don't like needles, or they've seen a bunch of antivax propaganda on youtube or they feel invincible or they've decided that "covid-19 happens to other people not me" or insert your rational here so they're going to try to use some kind of logic to convince themselves that they're doing the right thing. 


And they're absolutely entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own set of facts.  And from where I sit most of the vaccine hesitancy I see happening is hanging on some pretty flimsy and in many cases downright absurd rationales. 


You don't want to take the vaccine fine, don't take the vaccine, but don't try to wrap your decision in some pseudoscience nonsense or philosophical mumbo-jumbo.  You absolutely have the right to not take the vaccine, and you have the right to tell me you're not taking it because the ghost of Jim Morrison sang to you in a dream, but the rest of us who have taken the vaccine also have the right to restrict your access to certain public spaces where -due to your decision not to be vaccinated- you pose a risk to others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on April 22, 2021, 12:31:17 PM

That is why I said, shoulda made the stimmies contingent on getting the shot. All the Christopher Robins musing with their Piglets and Winnie the Poohs about whether vaccines work and whether they should get them would come stumbling out of the 100 Acre Wood very fast.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 22, 2021, 12:46:24 PM

Hmm...I have to think about that a little.  I get what you're saying, i just don't know how effective it would be or if it's even constitutional. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 12:49:46 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2021, 12:09:39 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 22, 2021, 11:48:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:36:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

I don't think it's so much about individualism versus community. It's more about both sides thinking their way is the best way for the community and thinking the other side is stupid for thinking otherwise. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle, but heaven forbid we actually listen to each other and compromise.

Which is where I stand; there's nothing funny about EITHER side.  It's all sort of sad, really.  Yeah, we all think we're "right", but we seem to forget that the people that disagree with us are EQUALLY convinced they are right and WE'RE the stupid ones.  At the end of the day, that means the answer is less about who is ACTUALLY right (and the reality is, it's never 100-0, but some degree of 50-50) than who has the loudest voice or the microphone at any given moment.   

Also, we don't know whether these decisions were right or wrong until later on as time goes on. Decades later even, do people realize, that decision was the best decision we could have made or that was the worst decision we ever made, and have to face either consequences for that decision.

Our decisions affect our future generations. We might not be alive to see the consequences of our decisions, but our children will and they are the ones that will have to live with it.

It's why you have to look how all these things will affect the children when they become adults. Same as how 9/11 affects us children that are adults today around the age of 30.


So that's just the thing. We don't know....And that is why I am taking a step back and just watching it. Because later down the line, everything will be fine, it has always been alright and we humans have survived. Throughout all of history and the things we have to face, this is just another one of them, only it's our time to shine.

I dunno - if you choose not to get the vaccine and then get covid, it seems to reason that if this happens, it ain't gonna take "decades" to figure you made the wrong decision.  ::)

Yeah, except, no.  I have both shots. In something like 11 days, I'm as immune as I ever will be.   I can still get the virus.  I know, I know, lesser impacts, and less chance of passing it, but still.  I think the problem here is that if you're going to suppose for these people you have to think ALL THE WAY THROUGH like these people.   My brother?  I didn't ask him directly, but I think it's a matter of... I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, or shot by a perp (he's a cop) or get COVID.  It is what it is.   I don't at all suspect if he gets sick he will say "goddamn I should have got the shot!".  I do suspect he will say "goddamn I got the virus" and move on.  It's the way he is. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on April 22, 2021, 12:50:24 PM

Ah yes, the constitution ...

Literally do not care. Not a lawyer, just a guy on the prog metal forum with a few hot takes lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 12:52:15 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 22, 2021, 12:13:53 PM

There are any number of health professionals you can talk to in order to help you make the best decision for you and your family. Nothing is every certain and nothing is ever guaranteed but I really don't get this "is it good for me? is it bad for me? who knows..... if only there was some way to find out..." mindset.

Go talk to your doctor. If you don't like what your doctor says, go talk to another doctor. Talk to as many healthcare professionals as it takes to get the answers to all of your questions.

I'm not defending him - I don't agree with his decision - but I do defend his right to make that EVEN IF IT IMPACTS YOU.  There are no doctors in the world that are going to make him change his decision.  As I said, he seemingly knows the risk, knows the information.  This isn't "microchip implantation" reactions. It's just his decision as a living, breathing, sentient, competent American human to decide what goes in his body.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 22, 2021, 12:46:24 PM

Hmm...I have to think about that a little.  I get what you're saying, i just don't know how effective it would be or if it's even constitutional.

I don't think it would even be close; it's a matter of privacy, like abortion (the Constitutional rationale for why abortion is a fundamental right).   It's sometimes helpful to replace "vaccination" with "abortion" and see if there's a different answer.   You might be able to restrict access to people, as you've suggested, at least to non-fundamental things but as a general, blanket restriction?  I don't think it would survive scrutiny.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on April 22, 2021, 01:12:11 PM

Don't cops have to swear a serve and protect oath?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 01:17:19 PM

Quote from: soupytwist on April 22, 2021, 01:12:11 PM

Don't cops have to swear a serve and protect oath?

Nope. And even if they did, that doesn't demand them taking a particular vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2021, 01:31:22 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 12:49:46 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2021, 12:09:39 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 22, 2021, 11:48:00 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 09:36:24 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: Adami on April 21, 2021, 04:42:16 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 21, 2021, 01:22:16 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 21, 2021, 11:38:40 AM

You can quietly live your life and make your own choices free from the judgment of others by doing just that. Gloating about your stupid opinions in public gives the public full license to laugh at you especially when those opinions backfire in your face. Don't want to get clowned? Don't be a clown. Simple as that.

Ted and Rush are clowns who both have profited immensely from being that.

Oh absolutely. Both sides need to shut up with the judgmental nonsense. Just live your own life and mind your own business.

Not to open up a can of worms, but that in itself is a value judgment. It’s valuing individualism over community. Which is very American (and somewhat western) but not a universal value set.

I don't think it's so much about individualism versus community. It's more about both sides thinking their way is the best way for the community and thinking the other side is stupid for thinking otherwise. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle, but heaven forbid we actually listen to each other and compromise.

Which is where I stand; there's nothing funny about EITHER side.  It's all sort of sad, really.  Yeah, we all think we're "right", but we seem to forget that the people that disagree with us are EQUALLY convinced they are right and WE'RE the stupid ones.  At the end of the day, that means the answer is less about who is ACTUALLY right (and the reality is, it's never 100-0, but some degree of 50-50) than who has the loudest voice or the microphone at any given moment.   

Also, we don't know whether these decisions were right or wrong until later on as time goes on. Decades later even, do people realize, that decision was the best decision we could have made or that was the worst decision we ever made, and have to face either consequences for that decision.

Our decisions affect our future generations. We might not be alive to see the consequences of our decisions, but our children will and they are the ones that will have to live with it.

It's why you have to look how all these things will affect the children when they become adults. Same as how 9/11 affects us children that are adults today around the age of 30.


So that's just the thing. We don't know....And that is why I am taking a step back and just watching it. Because later down the line, everything will be fine, it has always been alright and we humans have survived. Throughout all of history and the things we have to face, this is just another one of them, only it's our time to shine.

I dunno - if you choose not to get the vaccine and then get covid, it seems to reason that if this happens, it ain't gonna take "decades" to figure you made the wrong decision.  ::)

Yeah, except, no.  I have both shots. In something like 11 days, I'm as immune as I ever will be.   I can still get the virus.  I know, I know, lesser impacts, and less chance of passing it, but still.  I think the problem here is that if you're going to suppose for these people you have to think ALL THE WAY THROUGH like these people.   My brother?  I didn't ask him directly, but I think it's a matter of... I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, or shot by a perp (he's a cop) or get COVID.  It is what it is.   I don't at all suspect if he gets sick he will say "goddamn I should have got the shot!".  I do suspect he will say "goddamn I got the virus" and move on.  It's the way he is.

Consider - Yes people can get hit by a bus or something unfortunate may happen to your brother in the line of duty but in those examples, people don't have absolute control of their situation. Choosing to get the vaccine is within everyone's control and that's the difference. Regardless how the decision is made, if people choose not to get the vaccine - well it's still a bad decision. But with the example of my co-worker choosing not to get the vaccine but ultimately got covid (she still struggling over a week later) I'm sure her cognitive dissonance will kick in and she will convince herself it was no big deal.

All I can think of is Typhoid Mary.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on April 22, 2021, 02:01:29 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

Having said that, I'm starting to feel like once the vaccines administered starts to really twindle down to the point where everyone who wants one has gotten one, I say we really need to start fully opening up.  We can't let the resistance drive society.  They will have made their choice and it seems they are all good with that choice so we should open up and what happens, happens (generally, of course things can change).  I just don't want to see our politicians holding society back because everyone isn't vaccinated or if we don't meet the goals to get the % to herd immunity levels. 

I completely agree with this. We've all been staying home and holding out for the vaccine. It's here now. As soon as it's possible for everyone who wants it to have had it, it's time to fully open back up. No more mask mandates, no more restrictions, everything 100% open. I think we could be there by June. If you choose not to get vaccinated, so be it. You're rolling the dice and that's fine. Time to move on.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2021, 02:13:06 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 22, 2021, 02:01:29 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

Having said that, I'm starting to feel like once the vaccines administered starts to really twindle down to the point where everyone who wants one has gotten one, I say we really need to start fully opening up.  We can't let the resistance drive society.  They will have made their choice and it seems they are all good with that choice so we should open up and what happens, happens (generally, of course things can change).  I just don't want to see our politicians holding society back because everyone isn't vaccinated or if we don't meet the goals to get the % to herd immunity levels. 

I completely agree with this. We've all been staying home and holding out for the vaccine. It's here now. As soon as it's possible for everyone who wants it to have had it, it's time to fully open back up. No more mask mandates, no more restrictions, everything 100% open. I think we could be there by June. If you choose not to get vaccinated, so be it. You're rolling the dice and that's fine. Time to move on.

No, it's not fine. Around a quarter of the population has gotten the vaccine and until we're at 70% then I could see your point but we're not there yet. Because of people's stubbornness it is not time to open up fully, it is not time to lift mask mandates. Time to move on? Not even close.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 02:16:35 PM

Really looking forward to 2 weeks after my second shot, when I'll be as immune as I'll ever be.

I may do something normal, like go to a bookstore, or a movie theater, or a restaurant, none of which I've done in over a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 22, 2021, 02:20:12 PM

Just got the second Pfizer shot. Let’s hope the next two days aren’t so bad.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2021, 02:27:37 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 02:16:35 PM

Really looking forward to 2 weeks after my second shot, when I'll be as immune as I'll ever be.

I may do something normal, like go to a bookstore, or a movie theater, or a restaurant, none of which I've done in over a year.

If you're fully vaccinated then your prolly good to go.  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Podaar on April 22, 2021, 02:31:04 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 02:16:35 PM

Really looking forward to 2 weeks after my second shot, when I'll be as immune as I'll ever be.

I may do something normal, like go to a bookstore, or a movie theater, or a restaurant, none of which I've done in over a year.

Hef, I'm two weeks past my final shot. I went into the cigar shop yesterday without a mask. It actually felt kinda edgy.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 22, 2021, 02:31:28 PM

I hate coming across like a negative Nellie, but to those that think it's ok to start and 'get out' there (which I don't think I completely disagree with), have ya seen the stats coming out of India?  They had 'crushed' the curve for four months, then boom.  Literally.  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56826645

Over 300k cases yesterday... nearly 1/2 the global total.  And I think I heard the test positivity rate was north of 30%.  The additional indirect impact to Canada is that we import our AZ vaccines from India.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/593D/production/_118154822_optimised-india_cases_deaths_22apr-nc-002.png)

I think these are the kinds of things that Fauci et al are concerned about.  Even at 50% vaccinated, the wise move is to slowly loosen restrictions, then wait and see the effect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 02:36:14 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 22, 2021, 02:13:06 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on April 22, 2021, 02:01:29 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

Having said that, I'm starting to feel like once the vaccines administered starts to really twindle down to the point where everyone who wants one has gotten one, I say we really need to start fully opening up.  We can't let the resistance drive society.  They will have made their choice and it seems they are all good with that choice so we should open up and what happens, happens (generally, of course things can change).  I just don't want to see our politicians holding society back because everyone isn't vaccinated or if we don't meet the goals to get the % to herd immunity levels. 

I completely agree with this. We've all been staying home and holding out for the vaccine. It's here now. As soon as it's possible for everyone who wants it to have had it, it's time to fully open back up. No more mask mandates, no more restrictions, everything 100% open. I think we could be there by June. If you choose not to get vaccinated, so be it. You're rolling the dice and that's fine. Time to move on.

No, it's not fine. Around a quarter of the population has gotten the vaccine and until we're at 70% then I could see your point but we're not there yet. Because of people's stubbornness it is not time to open up fully, it is not time to lift mask mandates. Time to move on? Not even close.

He specifically said June, and along the lines of my post where we are at a point where everyone who wants a vaccine has gotten one, even if it's not at 70%.  Personally I had put this date at Memorial day, but shots have been going down and J&J still not back in use so I'm pushing my timeline back to June as well.   But we should be there this summer, herd immunity or not the shots will be there for everyone and we shouldn't, IMO, keep things closed for the people who choose not to get vaccinated.  It's on them, not society, at that point.

Jingle, I can't compare India to the US, they aren't anywhere close to the vaccination levels.  I've read they are only at 1% of population vaccinated.  I do think that was totally within the realm of possibility here in the US without vaccines though.  Having said that, what's going on in India and Brazil should be concern for those who aren't vaccinated.  Covid ain't going anywhere and if we don't ever reach herd immunity (some "experts" have predicted this) then those without vaccines will only be more and more susceptible as the virus mutates to be worse.  Hopefully it eventually mutates to something benign, but that's only a hope at this point and not anything that's going to happen in the near future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 22, 2021, 03:17:01 PM

I just got off a town hall for our IT department and they had a Doctor come on who is heading up what you could call a Covid Long-haul department in our company. They are trying to figure out what is going on with these long-haulers and how to treat them. They have had nearly 1000 patients come into the program already.

He got a question about what was the most shocking thing to come out of this. His answer was the average age of the long-haulers. Mostly young, and fit people. He mentioned a lady who is/was? a marathoner who was a prime physical specimen. She is a barely functioning human now due to long-haul symptoms and they cannot figure out what is going on. They are taking a one organ at a time approach to try and find a correlation and a cause. Just examine and treat and see what happens. His advice to everyone was to get vaccinated because you do not want to be a long-hauler.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 22, 2021, 03:51:05 PM

Quote from: Podaar on April 22, 2021, 02:31:04 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 02:16:35 PM

Really looking forward to 2 weeks after my second shot, when I'll be as immune as I'll ever be.

I may do something normal, like go to a bookstore, or a movie theater, or a restaurant, none of which I've done in over a year.

Hef, I'm two weeks past my final shot. I went into the cigar shop yesterday without a mask. It actually felt kinda edgy.  :lol

It's weird isn't it?   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 22, 2021, 04:19:06 PM

Taking my dad for seafood Saturday.   It's weird to do so.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 22, 2021, 04:23:54 PM

finally got an appointment for my first shot thursday may 6th.  Yay canada I guess.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 22, 2021, 04:50:03 PM

To the point of the vaccine clinics not filling appointments and low attendance:  Took my 18-year-old to get his first dose today, and the site was pretty packed.  Obviously, it's impossible to say what % capacity they were at, but there were a LOT of people moving through there (it was a drive-through site, as was the FEMA site where I got mine).  And it still takes some work to get an appointment around these parts.  I know that's just anecdotal, but thought I'd share anyway.  I do know people who are eligible that aren't getting it yet and some who do not plan to get it at all.  It is what it is.  But a LOT of people are getting it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 05:00:10 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 22, 2021, 04:50:03 PM

To the point of the vaccine clinics not filling appointments and low attendance:  Took my 18-year-old to get his first dose today, and the site was pretty packed.  Obviously, it's impossible to say what % capacity they were at, but there were a LOT of people moving through there (it was a drive-through site, as was the FEMA site where I got mine).  And it still takes some work to get an appointment around these parts.  I know that's just anecdotal, but thought I'd share anyway.  I do know people who are eligible that aren't getting it yet and some who do not plan to get it at all.  It is what it is.  But a LOT of people are getting it.

I brought it up, so I'll explain a bit more.  Two weekends ago (right before J&J got stalled) we did 4 million shots administered both days that weekend, the highest to date.  Since then we've been doing only 1.5-3 million per day.  And one might expect this week to shoot up with things opening for everyone, and yet only 2.6M yesterday and 1.8M Tuesday.  This is national so obviously you may see something different locally (I believe it's still a tight squeeze by me locally, but south of me is so easily available now) but it's concerning to me overall to see such a drop and it started that Monday after the record doses so it may not entirely be based on the J&J pause (although I definitely believe that plays a large role here).

I believe the admin is looking to move doses out of mega sites and into more CVS like sites to get things closer to people.  J&J is rumored to come back into play real soon (with a warning maybe tomorrow).  I do hope the numbers come back up, but I fear we may be hitting the wall of resistance and IMO that really sucks to be approaching that already.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 22, 2021, 05:11:27 PM

Yeah, I understand.  I think that, just like trends in the virus itself, we are going to see different trends for vaccinations over time as well.  I think it is probably too early to be overly concerned about a down-trend.  It could be explained by any variety of factors.  But I think it's too early to be overly concerned.  We don't know whether it is truly indicative of a slowdown, or just a temporary down-trend for what could be a variety of innocent factors. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 22, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

The number I'm only interested in is the % fully vaccinated.   What will be the % that we can move to normalcy?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 05:39:22 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 22, 2021, 05:11:27 PM

Yeah, I understand.  I think that, just like trends in the virus itself, we are going to see different trends for vaccinations over time as well.  I think it is probably too early to be overly concerned about a down-trend.  It could be explained by any variety of factors.  But I think it's too early to be overly concerned.  We don't know whether it is truly indicative of a slowdown, or just a temporary down-trend for what could be a variety of innocent factors.

You may very well be right.  My concern is how quickly we get back to "normal" and I think this stalls that a bit, that's all.  I'm mostly trying to explain not only the numbers but my own opinion.  I said Memorial Day things might be good, we had a slow down, I need to personally account for that. I kind of expected the 3-4M number to be consistent through May. 

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 22, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

The number I'm only interested in is the % fully vaccinated.   What will be the % that we can move to normalcy?

We are at 26.4% fully vaccinated in the US. Experts say around 70% to reach herd immunity. Around 50% had at least one shot so if we assumed those will complete the vaccinate schedule (I think it's over 90% who do come back for the 2nd shot), we will guarantee get to 50% fully vaxxed. Getting that next 20% may take a bit longer due to hesitancy.  This doesn't take natural infections into account.  It's totally possible we are much closer to herd immunity due to infection, but there's no way to measure it.

Fauci has said he thinks things wouldn't get back to normal until we get to 10k new cases daily (the good news, is the daily cases are dropping now after the latest "spike"). I personally feel we should get to normal once everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been vaccinated (minus the under 16 year olds).  I don't know if those two statistics align though, they may likely not, I just think if everyone has the ability to get one and opportunity, we shouldn't hold back the rest of society (here in the US).  Honestly what Jingle shared and what's happening in other spots of the world without vaccines should IMO be a good advisory to why one should get vaccinated.  However,  as said before, convincing those who are against it is an upward slope even when showing evidence of how bad this can get.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 22, 2021, 10:52:33 PM

I've been checking on getting an appointment and every place by me has nothing open.

I am ready and willing to get one, but not being able to get an appointment isn't keeping me up at night. It isn't going to change much of anything in the course of my daily routine. I still anticipate wearing a mask for the foreseeable future while at work, which doesn't bother me. And as my wife is wont to say, I am often to content to never leave the house if I don't have to. Getting a vaccine isn't going to suddenly inspire me to go somewhere I wouldn't otherwise go. I do wish more things were open for the kids, like the rec center and the pool (which just opened on a limited basis). We have started going to local parks now that the weather is nice, and they are troopers wearing their masks if other kids are around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2021, 06:47:51 AM

So just for informational purposes... I was scheduled for my second shot on Friday, the 16th.  I couldn't make it, so on the 15th I went on the Walgreens website and had about seven or eight opportunities to reschedule at the same location for Saturday the 17th.  I couldn't make that either, so on Friday or Saturday (I can't remember which) I called the 1-800 number, and had something like 6 or 8 slots to choose from on Monday (the first of which I took).  That was at a different location, slightly closer to my home.   I didn't bother checking other Walgreen's locations, but I imagine on either day I didn't have the only eight spots in the entire state.   

Many places in Connecticut are now advertising walk-up vaccinations with no appointment.   I know someone walked up during my first shot and got one (they gave it to him and we waited together to see if our testicles were going to shrivel up); I don't know if everyone at the second shot had appointments or not, but there were about six or seven people mingling around at the pharmacy.  There was no line to speak of though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 23, 2021, 06:59:43 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Pfizer.

Currently dying. Was lovely knowing all of you. Even Stadler.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 23, 2021, 07:06:50 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 23, 2021, 06:59:43 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Pfizer.

Currently dying. Was lovely knowing all of you. Even Stadler.

Must of got the truth serum version then.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 23, 2021, 07:19:04 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 23, 2021, 06:59:43 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Pfizer.

Currently dying. Was lovely knowing all of you. Even Stadler.

This too will pass...  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 23, 2021, 07:23:14 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 23, 2021, 06:59:43 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Pfizer.

Currently dying. Was lovely knowing all of you. Even Stadler.

You'll be fine. Once the 5G kicks in, your body goes back to normal and you become a mobile hotspot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on April 23, 2021, 07:25:08 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 23, 2021, 06:59:43 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Pfizer.

Currently dying. Was lovely knowing all of you. Even Stadler.

Can I have your stuff?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2021, 07:44:36 AM

I'm just glad I'm in there somewhere.  ;) :) :)


Seriously, I hope it passes soon.   The feeling bad, not you personally.   For me, the side effects were much lesser for the second shot (I never actually felt any pain in the arm; the first one, there was about four hours where I couldn't lift my arm), even if they lasted a bit longer (the first time it was about 24 hours and that's that; this time it was closer to 48, but it wasn't enough to impair me). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 23, 2021, 07:54:55 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2021, 06:47:51 AM

Many places in Connecticut are now advertising walk-up vaccinations with no appointment. 

The mega site in AC where I got my shot was offering walk up shots too this week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 23, 2021, 09:59:16 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 23, 2021, 06:59:43 AM

Got my second shot yesterday. Pfizer.

Currently dying. Was lovely knowing all of you. Even Stadler.

*pours beer on sidewalk for fallen homie*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lethean on April 23, 2021, 10:57:25 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 11:38:17 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 22, 2021, 11:26:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

In other vaccine news, there's a bad trend happening where we vaccines given per day is trending down.  Even with all of the US open for anyone over 16 to get it now, people don't seem to be lining up like one might expect.  It seems the resistance is quite strong, maybe stronger than I had thought. 

I wonder if that could be because people are waiting for dose number two. There's a number of places I could walk into in CT now with no appointment and get a shot if I needed the first one. There's nothing more I can do until the 30th when enough time has gone by between doses. A big chunk of the population got their shots in the same 1-2 week window, and now we're all playing the waiting game.

About 50% of adults have already received dose one, so I don't think it's that. The number doesn't seem high enough to be just about waiting for shot 2.  An article I read earlier's guess was while a lot of people aren't "anti-vax" there's a significant that are still just waiting to see how things play out and the negative news with J&J last week likely added to people's hesitancy, and IMO some of the words Fauci says and the way he acts doesn't really encourage people to get the shot.  By that, I mean, he still doesn't do anything normal after being vaccinated and still says we should all mask up (which I agree, until a point).  If he would just go out to a restaurant and say "I feel safe" I think it would go a long way in convincing people to get a shot. 

But what if he doesn't feel safe?  They're still doing studies; they're still learning.  Maybe he should say, which I believe from what I've read is the truth, something like "the data shows the vaccines are very effective (90% etc), and that in most cases, those who did get covid after vaccination have much milder cases.  The immediate benefit of the vaccine is for your health and future.  Even if you are young and healthy, you have a chance of getting a bad case of covid or long covid.  We still don't know why some very healthy people become very sick or die, and we're still learning about long covid.  Getting the vaccine means you likely won't get covid at all, and if you do, you won't have to be hospitalized from it.   This is the first benefit - to yourself and your loved ones.  We're still learning about whether/how much vaccinated people can transit the virus.  We're still learning how long the vaccine protects you.  Everyone wants life to get back to normal, and the more people get vaccinated as soon as possible, the quicker that can happen.  It's not going to happen tomorrow - I know we're telling people to still take precautions after vaccination and you're tired of doing so.  But it will happen much sooner than if you don't get vaccinated.  Without the vaccine, we estimate it would take X years to get back to normal, if we ever do, and we'll continue losing loved ones.  At 50% vaccinated, we estimate X amount of time, and at 70%, we'll be ready to go.  Even though we're telling you to wear a mask today, a tomorrow without a mask will happen much quicker than without the vaccine."  Obviously I'm way oversimplifying, but a statement along those lines, that isn't too technical, could go a long way.  Some people will never be reached by anything someone like Fauci says, but if it's just a case of "well if I have to wear a mask anyway, what's the point" - that's where what he says could help.

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 22, 2021, 10:52:33 PM

I've been checking on getting an appointment and every place by me has nothing open.

I am ready and willing to get one, but not being able to get an appointment isn't keeping me up at night. It isn't going to change much of anything in the course of my daily routine. I still anticipate wearing a mask for the foreseeable future while at work, which doesn't bother me. And as my wife is wont to say, I am often to content to never leave the house if I don't have to. Getting a vaccine isn't going to suddenly inspire me to go somewhere I wouldn't otherwise go. I do wish more things were open for the kids, like the rec center and the pool (which just opened on a limited basis). We have started going to local parks now that the weather is nice, and they are troopers wearing their masks if other kids are around.

I think there are indeed a lot of walk up vaccination clinics now.  Maybe something like that is/will be available in your area and you can just go one day without having to schedule it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2021, 10:59:43 AM

Quote from: Lethean on April 23, 2021, 10:57:25 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 11:38:17 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 22, 2021, 11:26:56 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM

In other vaccine news, there's a bad trend happening where we vaccines given per day is trending down.  Even with all of the US open for anyone over 16 to get it now, people don't seem to be lining up like one might expect.  It seems the resistance is quite strong, maybe stronger than I had thought. 

I wonder if that could be because people are waiting for dose number two. There's a number of places I could walk into in CT now with no appointment and get a shot if I needed the first one. There's nothing more I can do until the 30th when enough time has gone by between doses. A big chunk of the population got their shots in the same 1-2 week window, and now we're all playing the waiting game.

About 50% of adults have already received dose one, so I don't think it's that. The number doesn't seem high enough to be just about waiting for shot 2.  An article I read earlier's guess was while a lot of people aren't "anti-vax" there's a significant that are still just waiting to see how things play out and the negative news with J&J last week likely added to people's hesitancy, and IMO some of the words Fauci says and the way he acts doesn't really encourage people to get the shot.  By that, I mean, he still doesn't do anything normal after being vaccinated and still says we should all mask up (which I agree, until a point).  If he would just go out to a restaurant and say "I feel safe" I think it would go a long way in convincing people to get a shot. 

But what if he doesn't feel safe?  They're still doing studies; they're still learning.  Maybe he should say, which I believe from what I've read is the truth, something like "the data shows the vaccines are very effective (90% etc), and that in most cases, those who did get covid after vaccination have much milder cases.  The immediate benefit of the vaccine is for your health and future.  Even if you are young and healthy, you have a chance of getting a bad case of covid or long covid.  We still don't know why some very healthy people become very sick or die, and we're still learning about long covid.  Getting the vaccine means you likely won't get covid at all, and if you do, you won't have to be hospitalized from it.   This is the first benefit - to yourself and your loved ones.  We're still learning about whether/how much vaccinated people can transit the virus.  We're still learning how long the vaccine protects you.  Everyone wants life to get back to normal, and the more people get vaccinated as soon as possible, the quicker that can happen.  It's not going to happen tomorrow - I know we're telling people to still take precautions after vaccination and you're tired of doing so.  But it will happen much sooner than if you don't get vaccinated.  Without the vaccine, we estimate it would take X years to get back to normal, if we ever do, and we'll continue losing loved ones.  At 50% vaccinated, we estimate X amount of time, and at 70%, we'll be ready to go.  Even though we're telling you to wear a mask today, a tomorrow without a mask will happen much quicker than without the vaccine."  Obviously I'm way oversimplifying, but a statement along those lines, that isn't too technical, could go a long way.  Some people will never be reached by anything someone like Fauci says, but if it's just a case of "well if I have to wear a mask anyway, what's the point" - that's where what he says could help.

I think what you'll get is a variation on my brother, which is essentially, "okay, that's fine.  I believe you, I believe the science, and I'll get my shot when we're a little further on the learning curve."   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 23, 2021, 12:10:43 PM

I've made it to the top of the waiting list.  Getting jabbed Sunday morning.  AZ, so I'm looking forward to feeling like shit all day.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 23, 2021, 12:35:48 PM

I get second jab exactly two weeks from today.  I'm getting the version with the Core i7 CPU @ 3.6Ghz and bluetooth connectivity and gig-speed WiFi.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 23, 2021, 12:52:55 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on April 23, 2021, 12:35:48 PM

I get second jab exactly two weeks from today.  I'm getting the version with the Core i7 CPU @ 3.6Ghz and bluetooth connectivity and gig-speed WiFi.

Lol. Loser. You need at least 5.3Ghz and advanced retinal scan to be cool these days.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 23, 2021, 01:05:05 PM

You guys laugh all you want but I've had a solid three bars since late Monday afternoon.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 23, 2021, 01:08:44 PM

I'm like Bender, I've stolen many chips to confound "The" Man.


Stads, notice the "The."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 23, 2021, 01:41:56 PM

Thread crossovers, nice  :coolio :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 23, 2021, 02:55:17 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2021, 01:05:05 PM

You guys laugh all you want but I've had a solid three bars since late Monday afternoon.   

If you have solid bars lasting more than 3 hours, consult your physician.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 23, 2021, 03:16:33 PM

The CDC recommends J&J be back in use with a warning label and also says that pregnant women getting vaxxed is safe AND the anti-bodies will be passed to the child.  Some great news on the vaccine front today  :metal

Also some good news is the 7 day rolling average of daily cases has continually gone down this week in the US.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 23, 2021, 04:11:22 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on April 23, 2021, 02:55:17 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 23, 2021, 01:05:05 PM

You guys laugh all you want but I've had a solid three bars since late Monday afternoon.   

If you have solid bars lasting more than 3 hours, consult your physician.

Hell, if I have solid bars lasting for 3 hours - I'm going into business!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 24, 2021, 10:37:56 AM

Trudeau got the vaccine https://twitter.com/justintrudeau/status/1385982882775240706?s=21
(https://zdmkdcwjde3qmy1sxutql6lo-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/24947846_web1_210424-CPW-COVID-The-Latest-WEB_1.jpeg)

Not always the biggest fan of our prime minister but I guess his streak of being the most fuckable head of state continues unchallenged.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Super Dude on April 24, 2021, 11:05:30 AM

To all of you complaining about there being a 5G chip installed by the vaccine, just remember:


It could've been a Mac.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 24, 2021, 03:37:12 PM

Dial up.  Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 24, 2021, 03:40:23 PM

Got the 2nd Pfizer shot today.  I now await feeling crummy later today and/or tomorrow. :lol :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 24, 2021, 03:50:06 PM

Day 2. Still alive. Yesterday was very unpleasant. Today is better but still not great. All the pain is congregated in my upper arms/shoulders, upper back and neck. Hoping it gets better soon. Sleep isn’t easy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: faizoff on April 24, 2021, 07:10:53 PM

The side effect of the 2nd Pfizer shot really hit me like a bullet train the 2nd day, thank fully it was just a few hours but those few hours were rough.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 24, 2021, 07:38:07 PM

Good to know.  It's been about 7 hours since I got the shot and I feel fine, but I am still bracing for the worst.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 24, 2021, 08:05:54 PM

It took my 18 hours to get to the hard part. It felt like having the flu but I was good 2 days from my shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Super Dude on April 25, 2021, 04:55:28 AM

I got Moderna and had a headache about 3-4 hours after getting shot #2. But to be honest, the worst I got on day 2 just felt like a weekend hangover.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 25, 2021, 10:26:32 AM

Quote from: Adami on April 24, 2021, 03:50:06 PM

Day 2. Still alive. Yesterday was very unpleasant. Today is better but still not great. All the pain is congregated in my upper arms/shoulders, upper back and neck. Hoping it gets better soon. Sleep isn’t easy.

Hope it fades soon for you Adami. The symptoms you described were the first symptoms I experienced when I got Covid in December. It was a weird type of ache/pain.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 25, 2021, 10:28:15 AM

I think I’m just about all better now. My neck is really sore but that’s probably from really bad sleep over the last few days.

Sorry none of you get my stuff.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 25, 2021, 05:46:24 PM

Woke up today and felt okay except for a headache and was thinking maybe I was lucky. Nope. Since about noon, have felt like a train ran over me. Just gotta wait it out.  >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on April 25, 2021, 06:17:01 PM

Pfizer'ed up today. Tip of the cap to all the folks running that mass vac site. Very well run, everyone in good spirits.

Feels a little odd some of the reactions I get from others about getting the vaccine. People working on-site were congratulating me, family members were patting me on the back... I get I am doing my part, but I didn't win the lottery.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 25, 2021, 06:46:03 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 25, 2021, 06:17:01 PM

Pfizer'ed up today. Tip of the cap to all the folks running that mass vac site. Very well run, everyone in good spirits.

Feels a little odd some of the reactions I get from others about getting the vaccine. People working on-site were congratulating me, family members were patting me on the back... I get I am doing my part, but I didn't win the lottery.

I got mine at the Javitz Center in Manhattan. Had never been there before but that was the most well run operation I’ve seen. They’re doing I’m guessing thousands a day at minimum and are organized, courteous, and professional to an ungodly degree. Much much respect to them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 25, 2021, 07:57:55 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 25, 2021, 06:17:01 PM

Pfizer'ed up today. Tip of the cap to all the folks running that mass vac site. Very well run, everyone in good spirits.

Feels a little odd some of the reactions I get from others about getting the vaccine. People working on-site were congratulating me, family members were patting me on the back... I get I am doing my part, but I didn't win the lottery.

Pretty much the opposite of my experience. I got it done at a Walgreens, and on the first round I figured the pharmacist who jabbed me was just tired or having a rough day cause I tried chatting up and she just grumbled and gracelessly slammed the needle into my arm. Upon finishing, they told me to wander around the store for 15 minutes before leaving.

On the second shot I realized that's just her winning personality, I swear half the reason my arm hurt for a week was the massive wind up she took before drilling for bone with that shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 25, 2021, 08:03:55 PM

Now you know what your dates feel like you hunk.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 25, 2021, 08:06:10 PM

So he tells his dates to wander around for 15 minutes after? I tell my wife to wander around for 15 minutes before while I wait for the meds to kick in. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 25, 2021, 08:12:58 PM

Decades Matter Tim.  Lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on April 26, 2021, 06:46:22 AM

Got my vax at 8am yesterday - had pre-emptively taken Advil Saturday night, then first thing in the morning, and at lunch.  Was holding off until bedtime to take another pill, and around 8:30, the aches and shivers started kicking in.  Popped a pill around 9:30, then went to bed.  Woke up around 5 in a glaze of sweat, popped another pill, and (for the moment), I'm no worse for wear.  Think I'll pop another one around lunchtime and see how the evening goes tonight.

Though I did have a side effect no one's been talking about.  Not sure if I should be concerned.



























(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc1.staticflickr.com%2F4%2F3792%2F19852858014_ac55bb261d.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 26, 2021, 06:53:36 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 25, 2021, 08:03:55 PM

Now you know what your dates feel like you hunk.

 :heart

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 26, 2021, 06:55:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 26, 2021, 06:46:22 AM

Got my vax at 8am yesterday - had pre-emptively taken Advil Saturday night, then first thing in the morning, and at lunch.  Was holding off until bedtime to take another pill, and around 8:30, the aches and shivers started kicking in.  Popped a pill around 9:30, then went to bed.  Woke up around 5 in a glaze of sweat, popped another pill, and (for the moment), I'm no worse for wear.  Think I'll pop another one around lunchtime and see how the evening goes tonight.

Though I did have a side effect no one's been talking about.  Not sure if I should be concerned.



























(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc1.staticflickr.com%2F4%2F3792%2F19852858014_ac55bb261d.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

QAnon is right - THE MARK OF THE BEAST!!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 26, 2021, 07:04:33 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 24, 2021, 08:05:54 PM

It took my 18 hours to get to the hard part. It felt like having the flu but I was good 2 days from my shot.

That was me.  I got Moderna, and the first time, Friday I got the shot, Saturday my arm hurt BAD, and Sunday I was tired, had chills, body aches and a dull headache.  Didn't get off the coach for most of the day. 

Second shot I got on Monday.   No arm pain at all.    Tuesday night I laid down on the couch about 6:30 pm, and slept for four hours straight.  I had slight chills, body aches and a dull headache late Tuesday and most of Wednesday.  Then fine.  The effects of the second shot were noticeably more mild than the first.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 26, 2021, 08:28:45 AM

Quote from: Podaar on April 22, 2021, 02:31:04 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2021, 02:16:35 PM

Really looking forward to 2 weeks after my second shot, when I'll be as immune as I'll ever be.

I may do something normal, like go to a bookstore, or a movie theater, or a restaurant, none of which I've done in over a year.

Hef, I'm two weeks past my final shot. I went into the cigar shop yesterday without a mask. It actually felt kinda edgy.  :lol

Whoa

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 26, 2021, 08:45:24 AM

Some good news in the US, vaccines given were back up to the 3M per day over the weekend.  Not quite the 4M from a couple weeks ago, but a solid boost to the daily numbers over the past two weeks since the J&J pause.  Cases have been going down overall, and even in the areas of concern like Michigan and the NYC area.  Deaths have been lingering in the 700s daily, but are finally starting to creep down to the low 700s. 

I'm starting to see more concert tours being announced.  Backstreet Boys have been announced at the local big amphitheater for example, for July 12th.  While some tours, Dave Mathews Band, was just pushed back to the end of the summer (instead of pushed back to next year).  It certainly seems promoters think there's a good chance this summer will bring back some normalcy. 

NJ has an announcement at 1pm today about opening things further.  I'm guessing they will announce increase in dining capacity and venue capacity.  I don't expect 100% or to remove masks.  Maybe vaccinated and outdoors masks won't be necessary, the CDC has said this is considered safe.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 26, 2021, 09:23:17 AM

I'm going to my first show on Sunday.  I'm excited and nervous.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 27, 2021, 02:00:03 PM

This usually falls into that 'it's Florida' joke, but this is insane. Really nothing else to say about it.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article250961279.html#storylink=mainstage_card2

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 27, 2021, 02:13:22 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 27, 2021, 02:00:03 PM

This usually falls into that 'it's Florida' joke, but this is insane. Really nothing else to say about it.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article250961279.html#storylink=mainstage_card2

wow  :lol but the last line of the article also kind of adds to the "these people are not quite right in the head"

Quote

The school has a chiropractor on staff to give adjustments to students and staff and practices meditation among students with the use of crystals.

  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on April 27, 2021, 05:12:30 PM

We got our second Moderna dose yesterday.  Thank the stars the Wife has no ill effects so far.  Me?  not so lucky.  Been at work all day, headache, fever, chills, no appetite.  Finally broke down and took some Tylenol, now starting to feel better!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 27, 2021, 06:44:30 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 26, 2021, 09:23:17 AM

I'm going to my first show on Sunday.  I'm excited and nervous.

Well, I know have 2 confirmed shows this year with a possible third. I just bought tix to see District 97 in a tiny room in Chicago with a limit of 50 people. Was only $20 and was really a no-brainer. Then the 3x rescheduled Primus show where they play A Farewell To Kings which is now in Sept. Then I may see Jinjer in Nov.

Trying to return to normal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 28, 2021, 05:31:52 AM

Did not think I would get any vaccine until later but got a letter today with an appointment for torsdag.
Apparently Hypertension is considerd a risk factoring.

Happy to taket it whatever it will be. Should be Pfizer or Moderna.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 08:04:58 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 27, 2021, 06:44:30 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 26, 2021, 09:23:17 AM

I'm going to my first show on Sunday.  I'm excited and nervous.

Well, I know have 2 confirmed shows this year with a possible third. I just bought tix to see District 97 in a tiny room in Chicago with a limit of 50 people. Was only $20 and was really a no-brainer. Then the 3x rescheduled Primus show where they play A Farewell To Kings which is now in Sept. Then I may see Jinjer in Nov.

Trying to return to normal.

That Primus show is looking better and better for me, too.  I really want to see that.   My wife just mentioned off-hand that Rod Stewart was coming to CT (Mohegan) and while that's not a show I would go to on my own, I DO like Rod (phrasing!), and I found out that his opening act is none other than Cheap Trick, so... concert date night!   That's low-hanging fruit, to be honest.   45 minutes of one of my favorite bands, no doubt doing a set tailored to the Rod Stewart audience (so I'm expecting heavy on the oldies), and two hours of a great singer with at least some of his classics mixed in.  Add in a couple drinks, no kids, and a hot wife, and it could be fun!   :)  :) :) :)

EDIT:  I looked at Setlist, and for the last show before the lockdown, on his "Hits" tour, Stewart played three sets plus an encore.   In the main set was "Some Guys Have All The Luck", "Tonight's The Night", "Forever Young", "People Get Ready" and "Downbound Train", the middle set is acoustic, which had "You're In My Heart", and the third set/encore had "Stay With Me" and "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy".   My five favorite Rod Stewart songs are all right in there.    The only song in the set I could do without is "Have I Told You Lately", but I'll hug my wife and power through.   :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 28, 2021, 08:08:27 AM

I saw Rod Stewart a number of times in my past life and he was great! Of course that was 30 years ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 28, 2021, 08:16:00 AM

That Rod Stewart/Cheap Trick tour is also coming to my town, I may go.  It's not on my list I put in the general discussion thread yesterday, but it is on my radar.  With the concert drought, I feel I'm definitely more open to go to shows I may have passed on in the past.  Some of that is just due to availability of concerts and some of that is because I feel starved for a live show.  June 5th is the first concert for me on my schedule and it can't come soon enough.  Also, it's a smaller band outdoors so I feel like this show is likely to happen where as a lot of the other ones are much bigger events that has me a bit concerned our local laws may prevent them from happening if we aren't open at 100% by then.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2021, 08:19:46 AM

Man, India is getting hit really hard right now. All of the offshore teams I work with have been impacted pretty bad. Lots of people unable to work, and we've had a few deaths :( One guy in particular was feeling really shitty last week, and he's dead now. He went to the hospital with all the symptoms, but tested negative and was sent home because they have no bed availability over there. Just found out he died on Sunday. One girl I work with (she's in the US on a work visa) had both her parents die from it over the weekend as well. We have onshore people trying to get back into India to take care of their families. It's chaos.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on April 28, 2021, 08:20:36 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on April 26, 2021, 06:55:32 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on April 26, 2021, 06:46:22 AM

Got my vax at 8am yesterday - had pre-emptively taken Advil Saturday night, then first thing in the morning, and at lunch.  Was holding off until bedtime to take another pill, and around 8:30, the aches and shivers started kicking in.  Popped a pill around 9:30, then went to bed.  Woke up around 5 in a glaze of sweat, popped another pill, and (for the moment), I'm no worse for wear.  Think I'll pop another one around lunchtime and see how the evening goes tonight.

Though I did have a side effect no one's been talking about.  Not sure if I should be concerned.



























(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc1.staticflickr.com%2F4%2F3792%2F19852858014_ac55bb261d.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

QAnon is right - THE MARK OF THE BEAST!!  :metal

I posted that pic on my Fbook, with the caption that my wife and I did yardwork sleeveless for the first time since being vaxxed, took a nap, and when we woke up, the tattoo appeared.  Got my most likes, laughs and spittakes ever! :rollin

On a serious note, a fellow community association board member came home five days ago after being in the hospital for 23 days, 15 of those in ICU.  He is on oxygen, has a physical therapist visit once a day, and can stand up for maybe three minutes at a time.  He lost over 20 pounds.  He's in his mid 50s, was in great health, and has a long road of recovery ahead.  Fortunately, none of his family got it.  He's on the road a lot for business, took precautions, and was scheduled for his first shot a couple days after he was slammed.

Our former president's extended family is getting hit hard in India.  Brazil and Mexico are still quasi 'cesspools'.

With all the variants, I'll still be masking for many, many months to come, unlike Tom Brady and any of the thousands of others who still don't seem to get it.  This is going to be around for a long, long time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 28, 2021, 08:28:11 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2021, 08:19:46 AM

Man, India is getting hit really hard right now. All of the offshore teams I work with have been impacted pretty bad. Lots of people unable to work, and we've had a few deaths :( One guy in particular was feeling really shitty last week, and he's dead now. He went to the hospital with all the symptoms, but tested negative and was sent home because they have no bed availability over there. Just found out he died on Sunday. One girl I work with (she's in the US on a work visa) had both her parents die from it over the weekend as well. We have onshore people trying to get back into India to take care of their families. It's chaos.

It's brutal over there from what I've been reading.  Our offshore teams haven't mentioned anything to me, but then again, we don't really get personal so it's not surprising they aren't mentioning whats going on to me. 

However, I have been trying to use the India situation as a good example of why everyone should get vaccinated.  There were lots of predictions of a similar spike here in the US and what we are seeing is just a small increase thanks to the fact our most vulnerable have mostly been fully vaxxed now.  If that weren't the case, the US likely would be in a bad place too.  It seems we are going to be shipping millions of unused vaccines to India but I do wonder why it took so long.  We in the US clearly are not going to use all these vaccines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 08:54:34 AM

Unless I misunderstood, Connecticut is  removing the mask suggestion for anyone vaccinated and outdoors, even if you're around un-vaccinated people. Basically, since I'm fully vaccinated (or, rather, will be as of Monday, the 3rd) I do not need to wear face coverings unless I'm in a crowd of strangers.  My governor, Ned Lamont cited "science" and "Joe Biden" in his announcement.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on April 28, 2021, 08:58:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 08:54:34 AM

Unless I misunderstood, Connecticut is  removing the mask suggestion for anyone vaccinated and outdoors, even if you're around un-vaccinated people. Basically, since I'm fully vaccinated (or, rather, will be as of Monday, the 3rd) I do not need to wear face coverings unless I'm in a crowd of strangers.  My governor, Ned Lamont cited "science" and "Joe Biden" in his announcement.

It's still recommended that you wait two weeks to remove the mask after your second dose. As soon as May 15th hits (I get does 2 on Friday), I'm going to a brewery and having some beers outside. I don't care if I have to go by myself.

And just to toot the CT horn. We're #1 in the country for vaccinations per capita. One of the reasons why I don't entirely hate the taxes in this state.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 28, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Yes, the situation in India is scary to say the least, and the videos are heartbreaking.

We have a vaccine bus at my job today and tomorrow. Even though it was pain to coordinate the entire thing, I am pleased with the way things are going so far. We scheduled 150 vaccines for today, and 150 for tomorrow, and left 50 available spots for walk-ins.

This was at 8am, line started forming.
(https://i.imgur.com/e4Lb11Y.jpg)
View from outside my office window.
(https://i.imgur.com/lOtKogM.jpg)

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 08:54:34 AM

Unless I misunderstood, Connecticut is  removing the mask suggestion for anyone vaccinated and outdoors, even if you're around un-vaccinated people. Basically, since I'm fully vaccinated (or, rather, will be as of Monday, the 3rd) I do not need to wear face coverings unless I'm in a crowd of strangers.  My governor, Ned Lamont cited "science" and "Joe Biden" in his announcement.

Yeah, with the new CDC guidelines, vaccinated people do not need to wear a mask when outdoors, or small events. I will continue to wear my mask regardless though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 28, 2021, 09:21:24 AM

The CDC guideline of not needing a mask outdoors is kind of obvious IMO.  People just aren't getting covid from others based on being outdoors.  I haven't heard of any spreader events from all the protests and riots over the last year.  I haven't heard of any spreader events from the Texas Rangers games.  I haven't heard of any spreader events from some of the outdoor concerts that have been happening in Florida.  Last weekend there was a massive hardcore concert in NYC, while I see people commenting on this becoming a super spreader event, I'm about 99% sure that will not be the case.  Add in the scenario of "if you are fully vaccinated" and it's a no brainer to me.  Having said that, I will still wear a mask around large amounts of people because I don't believe we are quite there yet for everyone to be unmasked. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 09:27:40 AM

Quote from: Chino on April 28, 2021, 08:58:57 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 08:54:34 AM

Unless I misunderstood, Connecticut is  removing the mask suggestion for anyone vaccinated and outdoors, even if you're around un-vaccinated people. Basically, since I'm fully vaccinated (or, rather, will be as of Monday, the 3rd) I do not need to wear face coverings unless I'm in a crowd of strangers.  My governor, Ned Lamont cited "science" and "Joe Biden" in his announcement.

It's still recommended that you wait two weeks to remove the mask after your second dose. As soon as May 15th hits (I get does 2 on Friday), I'm going to a brewery and having some beers outside. I don't care if I have to go by myself.

And just to toot the CT horn. We're #1 in the country for vaccinations per capita. One of the reasons why I don't entirely hate the taxes in this state.

Yeah, I gotta say, I think we did a bang-up job.   Ned Lamont - a fairly liberal Democrat - has my vote for as long as he wants the job.  CT is at the point now that you don't even need an appointment any longer, if you haven't gotten the vaccine and want one (at least at the state-run vaccination centers).  There's also a campaign called "Drinks On Us", where participating restaurants will provide a free drink if you've been vaccinated (https://www.ctpost.com/living/article/CT-restaurants-offering-free-drinks-for-16130451.php).   I'm not sure about the legality of that (we have fairly strict happy-hour-type laws here) but I'm in!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on April 28, 2021, 09:48:03 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 08:04:58 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 27, 2021, 06:44:30 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 26, 2021, 09:23:17 AM

I'm going to my first show on Sunday.  I'm excited and nervous.

Well, I know have 2 confirmed shows this year with a possible third. I just bought tix to see District 97 in a tiny room in Chicago with a limit of 50 people. Was only $20 and was really a no-brainer. Then the 3x rescheduled Primus show where they play A Farewell To Kings which is now in Sept. Then I may see Jinjer in Nov.

Trying to return to normal.

That Primus show is looking better and better for me, too.  I really want to see that.

They just rescheduled it this week for the 3rd time and I took some liberties. I looked at the available tix for the show and found way better seats for the same cost. I cancelled my original tix through the refund offer for rescheduling and then bought the better tix. Got a nice mezzanine box with only 2 front seats in it and 2 behind. My buddy and I are in the front 2. I can sit for the whole show and watch Herb kill it on drums. So looking forward to see that guy live.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 10:23:11 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 28, 2021, 09:48:03 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 28, 2021, 08:04:58 AM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on April 27, 2021, 06:44:30 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 26, 2021, 09:23:17 AM

I'm going to my first show on Sunday.  I'm excited and nervous.

Well, I know have 2 confirmed shows this year with a possible third. I just bought tix to see District 97 in a tiny room in Chicago with a limit of 50 people. Was only $20 and was really a no-brainer. Then the 3x rescheduled Primus show where they play A Farewell To Kings which is now in Sept. Then I may see Jinjer in Nov.

Trying to return to normal.

That Primus show is looking better and better for me, too.  I really want to see that.

They just rescheduled it this week for the 3rd time and I took some liberties. I looked at the available tix for the show and found way better seats for the same cost. I cancelled my original tix through the refund offer for rescheduling and then bought the better tix. Got a nice mezzanine box with only 2 front seats in it and 2 behind. My buddy and I are in the front 2. I can sit for the whole show and watch Herb kill it on drums. So looking forward to see that guy live.

That's funny; that's something I'm looking forward to as well, especially playing Neil's parts.   Tim reminds me of Neil Peart to begin with, so this is going to be a treat. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on April 28, 2021, 12:28:17 PM

Brought my dad to his first Pfzier shot today!

In a big fair location in the middle of a park, usually I was going there to attend some comics conventions, now it's a vaccine center... and it was raining just a little bit, enough to make it annoying, and I couldn't enjoy the walk in the park while waiting for my dad 'cause we didn't think it would rain and we had no umbrella.

Uh well, better lucky next time, what matters is that he got the vaccine and that so far he's doing good!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on April 28, 2021, 08:40:13 PM

Found out that a guy I knew from high school died last week from Covid-19.  He was a year behind me in school, but in band, there's people from every grade, and he was good (trumpet player) so we overlapped for three years.  Good guy.  Smart, funny.  After we graduated, he worked at the same Sears as my mom for a while, in the shoe department, so I saw him once in a while.  I don't remember if I ever bought any shoes from him.

R. I. P., John M. :(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 28, 2021, 08:43:15 PM

Amen, man.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 29, 2021, 02:29:13 PM

That sucks, Orbert.  Sorry to hear that.


Got my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine today.  2 more weeks to bookstores and restaurants lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 29, 2021, 03:05:34 PM

Sorry Orbert, that's terrible to hear. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on April 29, 2021, 06:35:54 PM

Sorry to hear that Orbert.

Meanwhile, NYC is aiming for July 1st for a full reopen. All restriction lifted. Not sure we will be ready but let's hope for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 06:37:43 PM

Sorry to hear.

Does DTF think Joe Rogan was wrong in what he said about not getting the vaccine if you're young and healthy?
Would offering burgers and fries to anyone who gets vaxxed get all those who haven't gotten it, get it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 06:39:32 PM

that's 100% wrong and dangerous

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 29, 2021, 06:40:07 PM

I didn't hear what he said, but it appears he's walking it back.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 06:41:43 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 06:39:32 PM

that's 100% wrong and dangerous

How so?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 06:46:29 PM

There is this article on the efficacy of masks in public settings.
https://www.aier.org/article/masking-a-careful-review-of-the-evidence/ (https://www.aier.org/article/masking-a-careful-review-of-the-evidence/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 06:48:07 PM

Joe Rogan can say not to take the vaccine....

Doesn't mean I should take his word for it.


The point being, those whom are of the mindset of people not telling them what to do, a person that's on TV or anywhere else won't convince them.

Unlike the gullible that would take his word for it and not take the vaccine, but that's if those people actually say..."I'm not taking the vaccine because Joe Rogan said not too."

Joe Rogans comment is a stupid comment, but he can say it, regardless, because it's not up to him to decide whom can and can not take the vaccine? The only one who can decide that is the person themselves.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 06:51:51 PM

the best thing is for everyone (unless they have medical condition preventing them from doing so, obviously) or a large enough subset to have the vaccine as quickly as possible. If too many people start thinking "nah I don't need it"  then it's all for naught.

edit: as with everything related to covid since it started, it's never just about you, it's about protecting everyone around you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 06:52:27 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 06:48:07 PM

Joe Rogan can say not to take the vaccine....

Doesn't mean I should take his word for it.


The point being, those whom are of the mindset of people not telling them what to do, a person that's on TV or anywhere else won't convince them.

Unlike the gullible that would take his word for it and not take the vaccine, but that's if those people actually say..."I'm not taking the vaccine because Joe Rogan said not too."

Joe Rogans comment is a stupid comment, but he can say it, regardless, because it's not up to him to decide whom can and can not take the vaccine? The only one who can decide that is the person themselves.

That's not the point of the controversy. No one has to take his word for it, there is plenty of evidence out there to read and analyze, that this disease does not affect younger age groups very much compared to the elderly. He also wasn't trying to tell people what to do or what to think, the context of his comment was hypothetical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 29, 2021, 06:53:38 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 06:46:29 PM

There is this article on the efficacy of masks in public settings.
https://www.aier.org/article/masking-a-careful-review-of-the-evidence/ (https://www.aier.org/article/masking-a-careful-review-of-the-evidence/)

Edit: got my threads mixed up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 29, 2021, 07:01:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 06:51:51 PM

the best thing is for everyone (unless they have medical condition preventing them from doing so, obviously) or a large enough subset to have the vaccine as quickly as possible. If too many people start thinking "nah I don't need it"  then it's all for naught.

There are a lot of things that are "the best thing for everyone" and yet...  the fundamental right to privacy is a pretty important thing too. 

In any event, Rogan is claiming now he didn't say "not to get the vaccine".  He said that if you're young and healthy, you might not need it.  That runs counter to what I understand, but he's entitled to his point of view.   He also said he was talking about the INDIVIDUAL.   If we're talking about whether it helps anyone else, that's a different conversation.   I don't know if that's bullshit compared to the original statement (I don't listen to Joe Rogan, and I'm CERTAINLY not taking medical advice from him).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:05:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 29, 2021, 07:01:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 06:51:51 PM

the best thing is for everyone (unless they have medical condition preventing them from doing so, obviously) or a large enough subset to have the vaccine as quickly as possible. If too many people start thinking "nah I don't need it"  then it's all for naught.

There are a lot of things that are "the best thing for everyone" and yet...  the fundamental right to privacy is a pretty important thing too. 

In any event, Rogan is claiming now he didn't say "not to get the vaccine".  He said that if you're young and healthy, you might not need it.  That runs counter to what I understand, but he's entitled to his point of view.   He also said he was talking about the INDIVIDUAL.   If we're talking about whether it helps anyone else, that's a different conversation.   I don't know if that's bullshit compared to the original statement (I don't listen to Joe Rogan, and I'm CERTAINLY not taking medical advice from him).

Just keep in mind, the same people upset at Rogan are the same people who take other celebrities' comments on politics or social issues to heart, as long as they agree with them.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 07:07:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 29, 2021, 07:01:00 PM

There are a lot of things that are "the best thing for everyone" and yet...  the fundamental right to privacy is a pretty important thing too. 

mofo I'm literally just saying how vaccines work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:11:13 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 07:07:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 29, 2021, 07:01:00 PM

There are a lot of things that are "the best thing for everyone" and yet...  the fundamental right to privacy is a pretty important thing too. 

mofo I'm literally just saying how vaccines work.

Experimental ones, or those with years of testing?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:13:56 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:05:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 29, 2021, 07:01:00 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 06:51:51 PM

the best thing is for everyone (unless they have medical condition preventing them from doing so, obviously) or a large enough subset to have the vaccine as quickly as possible. If too many people start thinking "nah I don't need it"  then it's all for naught.

There are a lot of things that are "the best thing for everyone" and yet...  the fundamental right to privacy is a pretty important thing too. 

In any event, Rogan is claiming now he didn't say "not to get the vaccine".  He said that if you're young and healthy, you might not need it.  That runs counter to what I understand, but he's entitled to his point of view.   He also said he was talking about the INDIVIDUAL.   If we're talking about whether it helps anyone else, that's a different conversation.   I don't know if that's bullshit compared to the original statement (I don't listen to Joe Rogan, and I'm CERTAINLY not taking medical advice from him).

Just keep in mind, the same people upset at Rogan are the same people who take other celebrities' comments on politics or social issues to heart, as long as they agree with them.

Well, there's the problem. The people that take anything, any celebrity says to heart, as if they're some sort of saint.

For one, do those people actually listen to his podcast, or are they people whom just saw this because a news outlet made it a headline worthy news story?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:15:47 PM

I'm not anti-vaxx, polio vax works, small pox, etc... and everyone's body is different. Age plays a role here in regards to SARS-CoV-2.
However, I'm highly skeptical of an experimental government drug, though.. Especially one pushed on impressionable, naive young people.

https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA (https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:17:16 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:15:47 PM

I'm not anti-vaxx, polio vax works, small pox, etc... and everyone's body is different. Age plays a role here in regards to SARS-CoV-2.
However, I'm highly skeptical of an experimental government drug, though.. Especially one pushed on impressionable, naive young people.

https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA (https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA)

I already know what people here will say about this...so I'll just  :corn


But I will say.... Everything we put into our body, and handle with our bare hands, has an affect on us. There's chemicals in everything, and these all affect the chemicals within the human body. Its why we are told to eat a healthy diet, because foods have chemicals that react to the chemicals in our own body. Our body has THC receptors for crying out loud that our bodies use when we smoke THC, also, our minds create DMT.

It's why the things we put into the air and into the oceans and into the land all affect the animals, plants and minerals in soil, that we humans use as well. If these are contaminated, so will we humans be contaminated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:21:27 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:17:16 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:15:47 PM

I'm not anti-vaxx, polio vax works, small pox, etc... and everyone's body is different. Age plays a role here in regards to SARS-CoV-2.
However, I'm highly skeptical of an experimental government drug, though.. Especially one pushed on impressionable, naive young people.

https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA (https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA)

I already know what people here will say about this...so I'll just  :corn

Would that make them sexists and deniers of science?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 29, 2021, 07:23:11 PM

Depopulation Covid vaccinnes??

WTF? If they want to depopulate, let's just let Covid run unchecked. I mean what's it killed, a half a million people already?

And the Covid vaccine is an experimental government drug? Are you serious?  So the government had somehow decided that it would kill a ton of people worldwide, just so they could unleash an experimental depopulation drug on its own people?

OK..that makes sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:25:43 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 29, 2021, 07:23:11 PM

Depopulation Covid vaccinnes??

WTF? If they want to depopulate, let's just let Covid run unchecked. I mean what's it killed, a half a million people already?

I think it's killed more worldwide. In the US, the death count is controversial and skewed at best.
But even then, the survival rate of SARS-CoV-2 is way too high to truly depopulate the planet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:27:14 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 29, 2021, 07:23:11 PM

And the Covid vaccine is an experimental government drug? Are you serious?  So the government had somehow decided that it would kill a ton of people worldwide, just so they could unleash an experimental depopulation drug on its own people?

Depends on what you mean by "the government".

and yes, the SARS-CoV-2 "vaccines" are experimental.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:28:46 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:21:27 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:17:16 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:15:47 PM

I'm not anti-vaxx, polio vax works, small pox, etc... and everyone's body is different. Age plays a role here in regards to SARS-CoV-2.
However, I'm highly skeptical of an experimental government drug, though.. Especially one pushed on impressionable, naive young people.

https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA (https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/dr-sherri-tenpenny-explains-how-the-depopulation-covid-vaccines-will-start-working-in-3-6-months/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=cc2c6a0f3d2b3f575f49cb772e44dea21361146c-1619738880-0-AR2mXE1q6vuIl9GjO9QJZkZHq0ZlyD9Z3Qac7SR7c6ncCTZFSgAHy4wblGFirRfv7VLvQW7QE9YUASAOm5yS0lTl6JrLRCh82a8Ot6f9FijK2yXo0P67ZeljL0-2X0xXWjsbtAhyBQvq8XHJ8RQyogbBfIHl4bmNnw6eQ7TQnvO-onOCxocKCTdqS68rB8zQdG_IdR5VKtrRz3PR9jrMoOBXqQKOnQ6gcdsDYINKWs-90d1JGS8s4-DnoCkojOqevBer5OqUnp0dwCYBXLS-FjNITLF2HNiFbgpyImSuaPnMdKlqv6IZLcpLGpM7bryEPacoFYbtaaMh5IHH4xEgHIZUyY1EK_YA87kP_X5ltraqGs6MzuuSvMmr2U3cXCnqpom1T39WWvDctG6Ig5mb6aWFgTVJfKwZd3VdBCrmmnfzyxIMdpl9tbAOkvUrR5a5MGgUBKr2ropmTpZryLqHMYUVwPTONHYKp5FYIhhjnAS1zQFNkcIThOw4BJg5dFc0b4P_5niQ-rSU_UYUn1pvhSA)

I already know what people here will say about this...so I'll just  :corn

Would that make them sexists and deniers of science?

No, it just means they don't trust that doctor. Which is entirely what I am talking about as well with regards to following Science. Following Science requires trust, that what the Scientists are telling you is absolutely what they discovered and found out.

I can repost an example of the Ojibwe Tribe making Maple Syrup as they have Traditionally done and made their own sugar, before the settlers came and depleted the Maple Trees causing the Tribe to be reliant on the settlers white Sugars, and the Govt even denied them the right to tap the sap, a tradition they have done since the time they arrived there.

The reliance on the white Sugars caused the tribe many health problems and issues, and they wouldn't have had this if they hadn't had their healthy foods taken away from them.

Maple Syrup is scientifically shown to include beneficial chemicals that are beneficial to the human body. Which the Tribe already knew...they didn't need white science to teach them this....

https://indiancountrytoday.com/.amp/news/sugarbush-brings-healing-sweet-maple-syrup?__twitter_impression=true&s=04

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on April 29, 2021, 07:29:38 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:27:14 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 29, 2021, 07:23:11 PM

And the Covid vaccine is an experimental government drug? Are you serious?  So the government had somehow decided that it would kill a ton of people worldwide, just so they could unleash an experimental depopulation drug on its own people?

Depends on what you mean by "the government".

I took it in this context:

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:15:47 PM

I'm not anti-vaxx, polio vax works, small pox, etc... and everyone's body is different. Age plays a role here in regards to SARS-CoV-2.
However, I'm highly skeptical of an experimental government drug, though.. Especially one pushed on impressionable, naive young people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:30:03 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:17:16 PM

But I will say.... Everything we put into our body, and handle with our bare hands, has an affect on us. There's chemicals in everything, and these all affect the chemicals within the human body. Its why we are told to eat a healthy diet, because foods have chemicals that react to the chemicals in our own body. Our body has THC receptors for crying out loud that our bodies use when we smoke THC, also, our minds create DMT.

It's why the things we put into the air and into the oceans and into the land all affect the animals, plants and minerals in soil, that we humans use as well. If these are contaminated, so will we humans be contaminated.

Are you referencing that part of the video where they talk about the specific chemicals in these vaccines? It's pretty far into the video.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on April 29, 2021, 07:30:18 PM

I get the apprehension about the vaccine, given that it was Operation Warp Speed, but I was happy to get it this month as soon as I had the opportunity. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:30:47 PM

TAC, do you believe government is separate from corporate interests?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:32:20 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on April 29, 2021, 07:30:18 PM

I get the apprehension about the vaccine, given that it was Operation Warp Speed, but I was happy to get it this month as soon as I had the opportunity.

MDNA was developed for the last 15 years, wasn't it? Trump was President that whole time??

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:35:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:30:03 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:17:16 PM

But I will say.... Everything we put into our body, and handle with our bare hands, has an affect on us. There's chemicals in everything, and these all affect the chemicals within the human body. Its why we are told to eat a healthy diet, because foods have chemicals that react to the chemicals in our own body. Our body has THC receptors for crying out loud that our bodies use when we smoke THC, also, our minds create DMT.

It's why the things we put into the air and into the oceans and into the land all affect the animals, plants and minerals in soil, that we humans use as well. If these are contaminated, so will we humans be contaminated.

Are you referencing that part of the video where they talk about the specific chemicals in these vaccines? It's pretty far into the video.

I'm referencing how all vaccines have chemicals in them. Because chemicals are in everything. Or more, everything has and is made up of an element that is on the periodic table.

It's why they should tell you what's in the vaccines the same way they have to tell you what's in your food.

You're putting chemicals in you whether it's a drug or food.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:38:37 PM

"In the United States, approximately 80% of reported COVID-19 deaths have occurred in patients aged ≥65 years."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6949e2.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6949e2.htm)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:40:15 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:35:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:30:03 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:17:16 PM

But I will say.... Everything we put into our body, and handle with our bare hands, has an affect on us. There's chemicals in everything, and these all affect the chemicals within the human body. Its why we are told to eat a healthy diet, because foods have chemicals that react to the chemicals in our own body. Our body has THC receptors for crying out loud that our bodies use when we smoke THC, also, our minds create DMT.

It's why the things we put into the air and into the oceans and into the land all affect the animals, plants and minerals in soil, that we humans use as well. If these are contaminated, so will we humans be contaminated.

Are you referencing that part of the video where they talk about the specific chemicals in these vaccines? It's pretty far into the video.

I'm referencing how all vaccines have chemicals in them. Because chemicals are in everything. Or more, everything has and is made up of an element that is on the periodic table.

It's why they should tell you what's in the vaccines the same way they have to tell you what's in your food.

You're putting chemicals in you whether it's a drug or food.

I don't eat anything that has ingredients in it I can't pronounce immediately, as much as I can.
Vaccines are a different story, because vaccines are supposed to be medicines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:48:07 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:38:37 PM

"In the United States, approximately 80% of reported COVID-19 deaths have occurred in patients aged ≥65 years."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6949e2.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6949e2.htm)

The underlying conditions play a part in it as well....

It's why I like that article because if the Ojibwe had not have had their Maple Syrup taken away from them, they wouldn't be having diabetic issues, because their reliance on "The Other" Sugars and not their own "Self-reliant" sugars caused them these health problems. And it's what caused a lot of Native Health issues because our diets were entirely sabotaged when they came and settled and destroyed all our resources we relied upon to sustain ourselves.

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:40:15 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:35:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:30:03 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 07:17:16 PM

But I will say.... Everything we put into our body, and handle with our bare hands, has an affect on us. There's chemicals in everything, and these all affect the chemicals within the human body. Its why we are told to eat a healthy diet, because foods have chemicals that react to the chemicals in our own body. Our body has THC receptors for crying out loud that our bodies use when we smoke THC, also, our minds create DMT.

It's why the things we put into the air and into the oceans and into the land all affect the animals, plants and minerals in soil, that we humans use as well. If these are contaminated, so will we humans be contaminated.

Are you referencing that part of the video where they talk about the specific chemicals in these vaccines? It's pretty far into the video.

I'm referencing how all vaccines have chemicals in them. Because chemicals are in everything. Or more, everything has and is made up of an element that is on the periodic table.

It's why they should tell you what's in the vaccines the same way they have to tell you what's in your food.

You're putting chemicals in you whether it's a drug or food.

I don't eat anything that has ingredients in it I can't pronounce immediately, as much as I can.
Vaccines are a different story, because vaccines are supposed to be medicines.

There are also herbs, and foods that do help people, and were once used as medicines. It's all up to the person though. Because sometimes the sickness is caused by the mind. Like how you become sick to your stomach when you're scared, and piss your pants, or that sick feeling you get when you know something's wrong. This is your mind causing your body to react a certain way because of the chemicals involved.  It's one of those things were belief in it will work because you set up your mind to receive the benefits, so your mind prepares the body as the herbs do their work. It's why those people who do ayahuascha or Mushrooms tend to fast and prepare before, because it won't be beneficial, and it may end up killing them instead. Sometimes, some medicine is strong enough to be poisonous if not used correctly. Which most people do not know how to do...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on April 29, 2021, 07:53:45 PM

Maybe if you don't trust the Corporate America vaccine you could have your dealer smuggle in one of them SinoVacs

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 29, 2021, 08:11:15 PM

Quote from: Skeever on April 29, 2021, 07:53:45 PM

Maybe if you don't trust the Corporate America vaccine you could have your dealer smuggle in one of them SinoVacs

Most just don't trust the efficacy of the tests of the vaccines, because it has never been implemented on the masses. Just because they did studies, doesn't mean people will fully trust it.

It's the fact it's never been mass produced and executed to the masses is why people are concerned. And some rightfully, because they were the lucky ones to get side effects of the vaccines. I feel sorry for those people, but the benefits outweigh the risks, right.

It's why it is very important to go see your doctor if you are concerned, and it shouldn't be up to anyone but you whether you want this inside your body or not.

Why else do you think they're using incentives and basically bribing people into taking this, because they know this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on April 29, 2021, 10:22:01 PM

Quote from: darkshade on April 29, 2021, 07:27:14 PM

Quote from: TAC on April 29, 2021, 07:23:11 PM

And the Covid vaccine is an experimental government drug? Are you serious?  So the government had somehow decided that it would kill a ton of people worldwide, just so they could unleash an experimental depopulation drug on its own people?

Depends on what you mean by "the government".

and yes, the SARS-CoV-2 "vaccines" are experimental.

Not unless you have a very different definition fo "experimental" in this context.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on April 30, 2021, 02:15:47 AM

I will be taking my first shot on tuesday.

The benefits far outweigh the risks.

Above 1% of those with covid infection in Sweden so far have died with or by it. Far, far fever have died after taking a vaccine.

Then you also have a lot of long term effects from covid. Even one year after people have difficulties breathing, tiredness, loss of taste etc.

The vaccines like any medication has the  risk  of side effects but that risk is far far less and far far less serious than geting the vaccine.

Yeah, I am glad that I will finally get my shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on April 30, 2021, 02:35:58 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on April 30, 2021, 02:15:47 AM

I will be taking my first shot on tuesday.

The benefits far outweigh the risks.

Above 1% of those with covid infection in Sweden so far have died with or by it. Far, far fever have died after taking a vaccine.

Then you also have a lot of long term effects from covid. Even one year after people have difficulties breathing, tiredness, loss of taste etc.

The vaccines like any medication has the  risk  of side effects but that risk is far far less and far far less serious than geting the vaccine.

Yeah, I am glad that I will finally get my shot.

That's my stance on the vaccine too. I can't wait to get my vaccine shot, I can take the risks.

I'm too young and healthy to get it now though, I'll have to wait my turn :P  I'm in the last group.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 30, 2021, 06:07:58 AM

https://undercurrents723949620.wordpress.com/2021/03/25/the-hushed-long-term-risks-of-covid-19-vaccines/ (https://undercurrents723949620.wordpress.com/2021/03/25/the-hushed-long-term-risks-of-covid-19-vaccines/)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenmatloff/2020/12/18/what-are-the-long-term-safety-risks-of-the-pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines/?sh=37bb725b68f3 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenmatloff/2020/12/18/what-are-the-long-term-safety-risks-of-the-pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines/?sh=37bb725b68f3)

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/03/25/covid-vaccine-morally-compromised.aspx?ui=a468010ffca324df72434fc1695dac5999dd01a6bba7897c6a8cbd3afbd3d619&sd=20210122&cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20210325_HL2&mid=DM839649&rid=1116118935 (https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/03/25/covid-vaccine-morally-compromised.aspx?ui=a468010ffca324df72434fc1695dac5999dd01a6bba7897c6a8cbd3afbd3d619&sd=20210122&cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20210325_HL2&mid=DM839649&rid=1116118935)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 30, 2021, 06:28:00 AM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0MASUMUUAEqzVV?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0MdW8jWUAAT7jm?format=jpg&name=large)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on April 30, 2021, 06:31:08 AM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0MdVIgX0AIeGOY?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0MFPSdXIAASjpP?format=jpg&name=large)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 07:28:51 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 29, 2021, 07:07:29 PM

Quote from: Stadler on April 29, 2021, 07:01:00 PM

There are a lot of things that are "the best thing for everyone" and yet...  the fundamental right to privacy is a pretty important thing too. 

mofo I'm literally just saying how vaccines work.

We're not close enough for you to call me "mofo".   And your post didn't say anything about "how vaccines work" - certainly not "literally" - just your unilateral declaration of what's "best thing for everyone".   

I don't agree with very much that Darkshade is saying - about governments, experiments, that kind of thing - but if he wants to get the vaccine or not, that's his call as a sentient, consenting adult.  Hopefully he's in the minority, but that's what education - not bullying - is for.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 30, 2021, 07:38:11 AM

Vaccination rates have plateaued in the mid 30% range in my area.  The vaccinations are plentiful but people just aren’t getting them anymore. Not ideal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on April 30, 2021, 08:10:22 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 07:28:51 AM

I don't agree with very much that Darkshade is saying - about governments, experiments, that kind of thing - but if he wants to get the vaccine or not, that's his call as a sentient, consenting adult.  Hopefully he's in the minority, but that's what education - not bullying - is for.

I don't think education is what is being asked for.

Anyone else starting to feel like a whole can of worms was just dumped into this thread as bait?  Just something to consider.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 30, 2021, 08:22:02 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 30, 2021, 08:10:22 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 07:28:51 AM

I don't agree with very much that Darkshade is saying - about governments, experiments, that kind of thing - but if he wants to get the vaccine or not, that's his call as a sentient, consenting adult.  Hopefully he's in the minority, but that's what education - not bullying - is for.

I don't think education is what is being asked for.

Anyone else starting to feel like a whole can of worms was just dumped into this thread as bait?  Just something to consider.

Education may not be what's asked for, but it surely is needed after reading the what I missed last night.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2021, 08:27:21 AM

Quote from: Harmony on April 30, 2021, 08:10:22 AM

Anyone else starting to feel like a whole can of worms was just dumped into this thread as bait? 

Of course it was.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 08:33:39 AM

Maybe.  Likely.   It's hard for me, though, because as much as I don't agree with the position (or hypothetical) that darkshade proposed, I'm also sort of sensitive to the response too.  Some of this is veering away from the issue and into the personal, and that's where I lose... not interest, really, but that's certainly where the discussion becomes less tangible.   I'm not sure it's productive to guess on motivations and what not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on April 30, 2021, 08:35:04 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 08:33:39 AM

Maybe.  Likely.   It's hard for me, though, because as much as I don't agree with the position (or hypothetical) that darkshade proposed, I'm also sort of sensitive to the response too.  Some of this is veering away from the issue and into the personal, and that's where I lose... not interest, really, but that's certainly where the discussion becomes less tangible.   I'm not sure it's productive to guess on motivations and what not.

I agree the response to him has, at times, gone in a very unhelpful direction. That, however, doesn't mean his original responses weren't forms of baiting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 30, 2021, 08:42:15 AM

Like I said in the other thread.  So many people live in the extreme.  They look at everything as black and white.  There is gray in everything.  Some stores will have his beliefs, were he won't have to wear a mask, others will. It's his choice to figure out if he wants to seal with wearing a mask to shop or eat there.   the world isn't going to make him get a tattoo if he's vaccinated or not. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on April 30, 2021, 09:14:10 AM

darkshade, not sure if you're just baiting/trolling, but assuming you're not:

1. The concerns for India aren't about total numbers of cases and deaths over the past year, they are about the rapidly rising cases and deaths NOW.

2. Some media sites and random people on social media have used old photos thinking they're from the current crisis. Not sure what your point is. Do you think that means the crisis isn't real, and that every single news site has also used old photos?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 09:18:22 AM

Quote from: ariich on April 30, 2021, 09:14:10 AM

darkshade, not sure if you're just baiting/trolling, but assuming you're not:

1. The concerns for India aren't about total numbers of cases and deaths over the past year, they are about the rapidly rising cases and deaths NOW.

2. Some media sites and random people on social media have used old photos thinking they're from the current crisis. Not sure what your point is. Do you think that means the crisis isn't real, and that every single news site has also used old photos?

I can't speak for darkshade, or answer number one, but I know for number 2, it's a credibility issue.   SO MUCH of media is hyperbolic exaggeration, that going for the heartbreaking picture of the woman tied to an oxygen tank - even if a current photo - is part of the problem.  At least with me, if you have a concern, state it in plain language and trust me to prioritize it accordingly.   You know full well, from your criticisms in the past on the right and outlets like Fox News (and I've noted that it's not solely Fox) that some people don't bother to dig in.  That's basically a lie, and if someone sees that and says "wow, India sucks!" that's not helping anyone in the long run.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 09:46:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 09:18:22 AM

Quote from: ariich on April 30, 2021, 09:14:10 AM

darkshade, not sure if you're just baiting/trolling, but assuming you're not:

1. The concerns for India aren't about total numbers of cases and deaths over the past year, they are about the rapidly rising cases and deaths NOW.

2. Some media sites and random people on social media have used old photos thinking they're from the current crisis. Not sure what your point is. Do you think that means the crisis isn't real, and that every single news site has also used old photos?

I can't speak for darkshade, or answer number one, but I know for number 2, it's a credibility issue.   SO MUCH of media is hyperbolic exaggeration, that going for the heartbreaking picture of the woman tied to an oxygen tank - even if a current photo - is part of the problem.  At least with me, if you have a concern, state it in plain language and trust me to prioritize it accordingly.   You know full well, from your criticisms in the past on the right and outlets like Fox News (and I've noted that it's not solely Fox) that some people don't bother to dig in.  That's basically a lie, and if someone sees that and says "wow, India sucks!" that's not helping anyone in the long run.

I agree, though news  media is entertainment, putting the media part first and foremost, and the pic of the ragged lady tapped to an oxygen tank gets more clicks than a simple headline stating 'India registers over 370k cases in one day' (which is fucking frightening)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 30, 2021, 10:13:06 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 09:46:12 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 09:18:22 AM

Quote from: ariich on April 30, 2021, 09:14:10 AM

darkshade, not sure if you're just baiting/trolling, but assuming you're not:

1. The concerns for India aren't about total numbers of cases and deaths over the past year, they are about the rapidly rising cases and deaths NOW.

2. Some media sites and random people on social media have used old photos thinking they're from the current crisis. Not sure what your point is. Do you think that means the crisis isn't real, and that every single news site has also used old photos?

I can't speak for darkshade, or answer number one, but I know for number 2, it's a credibility issue.   SO MUCH of media is hyperbolic exaggeration, that going for the heartbreaking picture of the woman tied to an oxygen tank - even if a current photo - is part of the problem.  At least with me, if you have a concern, state it in plain language and trust me to prioritize it accordingly.   You know full well, from your criticisms in the past on the right and outlets like Fox News (and I've noted that it's not solely Fox) that some people don't bother to dig in.  That's basically a lie, and if someone sees that and says "wow, India sucks!" that's not helping anyone in the long run.

I agree, though news  media is entertainment, putting the media part first and foremost, and the pic of the ragged lady tapped to an oxygen tank gets more clicks than a simple headline stating 'India registers over 370k cases in one day' (which is fucking frightening)

The issue is they're playing on people's emotions and fears just to get more views and clicks. And using an old photo doesn't help matters at all, because it gives those who like to say "Fake News" ammo. Which  makes sense because now those people will click the news story and give the news story more attention.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on April 30, 2021, 10:25:46 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 09:18:22 AM

Quote from: ariich on April 30, 2021, 09:14:10 AM

darkshade, not sure if you're just baiting/trolling, but assuming you're not:

1. The concerns for India aren't about total numbers of cases and deaths over the past year, they are about the rapidly rising cases and deaths NOW.

2. Some media sites and random people on social media have used old photos thinking they're from the current crisis. Not sure what your point is. Do you think that means the crisis isn't real, and that every single news site has also used old photos?

I can't speak for darkshade, or answer number one, but I know for number 2, it's a credibility issue.   SO MUCH of media is hyperbolic exaggeration, that going for the heartbreaking picture of the woman tied to an oxygen tank - even if a current photo - is part of the problem.  At least with me, if you have a concern, state it in plain language and trust me to prioritize it accordingly.   You know full well, from your criticisms in the past on the right and outlets like Fox News (and I've noted that it's not solely Fox) that some people don't bother to dig in.  That's basically a lie, and if someone sees that and says "wow, India sucks!" that's not helping anyone in the long run.

Agreed, all completely valid criticisms of (in this case) the NY Post. The other example was some random person on Twitter.

But that doesn't make the issue less real, which is what those images were supposed to imply.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 30, 2021, 10:41:38 AM

The stock photo usage is a real issue these days.  It's not just a covid thing either.  It's the news media being lazy to not get new images and instead using old images to get the emotional response they want.  It works, but it's so damn wrong IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2021, 10:43:16 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 30, 2021, 10:41:38 AM

The stock photo usage is a real issue these days.  It's not just a covid thing either.  It's the news media being lazy to not get new images and instead using old images to get the emotional response they want.  It works, but it's so damn wrong IMO.

Fucking Hugh Syme.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on April 30, 2021, 10:47:51 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2021, 10:43:16 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 30, 2021, 10:41:38 AM

The stock photo usage is a real issue these days.  It's not just a covid thing either.  It's the news media being lazy to not get new images and instead using old images to get the emotional response they want.  It works, but it's so damn wrong IMO.

Fucking Hugh Syme.

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 30, 2021, 10:54:28 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2021, 10:43:16 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on April 30, 2021, 10:41:38 AM

The stock photo usage is a real issue these days.  It's not just a covid thing either.  It's the news media being lazy to not get new images and instead using old images to get the emotional response they want.  It works, but it's so damn wrong IMO.

Fucking Hugh Syme.

You complete me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 10:58:02 AM

 :rollin  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 11:34:35 AM

Quote from: T-ski on April 30, 2021, 07:38:11 AM

Vaccination rates have plateaued in the mid 30% range in my area.  The vaccinations are plentiful but people just aren’t getting them anymore. Not ideal.

Seems to be the numbers nationwide. I just don't get it. It's getting to the point where covid deaths going forward are a direct result of the apothetic, the arrogant, and the lazy. I'm sure there's about a billion people in India who'd give anything to be able to get vaccinated same day with a simple phone call and short trip. I just don't get it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 30, 2021, 11:43:47 AM

Almost half of the country voted Republican and most on that party believe the vaccine is not needed.  Not surprised.  Add those afraid of the side affects and you get the slow down.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: T-ski on April 30, 2021, 11:50:12 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 30, 2021, 11:43:47 AM

Almost half of the country voted Republican and most on that party believe the vaccine is not needed.  Not surprised.  Add those afraid of the side affects and you get the slow down.

I have a lot of Republican friends and family and they all have been vaccinated, so I’ll slightly disagree with that one point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 11:53:41 AM

Quote from: T-ski on April 30, 2021, 11:50:12 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 30, 2021, 11:43:47 AM

Almost half of the country voted Republican and most on that party believe the vaccine is not needed.  Not surprised.  Add those afraid of the side affects and you get the slow down.

I have a lot of Republican friends and family and they all have been vaccinated, so I’ll slightly disagree with that one point.

Yeah, there's a good deal of Uber liberal holistic mom-hard types who are stupidly avoiding it because they thin they know better than the vast scientific community. Though, from the stats I've heard, the leading demographic not getting vaxxed is conservative men.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 30, 2021, 12:13:24 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 11:53:41 AM

Quote from: T-ski on April 30, 2021, 11:50:12 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 30, 2021, 11:43:47 AM

Almost half of the country voted Republican and most on that party believe the vaccine is not needed.  Not surprised.  Add those afraid of the side affects and you get the slow down.

I have a lot of Republican friends and family and they all have been vaccinated, so I’ll slightly disagree with that one point.

Yeah, there's a good deal of Uber liberal holistic mom-hard types who are stupidly avoiding it because they thin they know better than the vast scientific community. Though, from the stats I've heard, the leading demographic not getting vaxxed is conservative men.

Let me tell you something though. The Scientific community hasn't really bothered touching holistic or natural remedies. So in reality, there is no scientific proof for these ways. But these are ways that humans have been healing and doing since before that perspective of Science ever set foot on this continent.

So does that make it false or just something Science has yet to prove?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 12:22:16 PM

I'm about to serve lunch, so I don't have the time, but I'd imagine a quick Google search will show endless scientific papers on the efficacy, both good and bad, of the medical practices that fall casually under the holistic and natural remedies umbrella. Everything is looked at for efficacy, it's a capitalist medical system, they aren't going to pass up the chance to make the big bucks on the be t medical breakthrough. No hidden culture is holding a secret remedy that science hasn't gone scorched earth studying. To believe otherwise is just naive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on April 30, 2021, 12:23:08 PM

Quote from: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 11:53:41 AM

Yeah, there's a good deal of Uber liberal holistic mom-hard types who are stupidly avoiding it because they thin they know better than the vast scientific community. Though, from the stats I've heard, the leading demographic not getting vaxxed is conservative men.

This is my sister in law to a T.   Her oldest son is mildly autistic and she is convinced that something in vaccines caused it.  Not necessarily a specific vaccine, but the combination and timing of doses in early childhood.  So since then, she is extremely skeptical of vaccines.   Go figure that autism is a GENETIC disorder, and is likely assigned at conception, when cell division is happening and genes are being created in-utero, but whatever.   :facepalm:   She won't even let her kids take children's dosages of medicine.  She's on the essential oil bandwagon, or was, at one point.

She's married to my wife's brother, who has Crohn's and is immuno-compromised as a result.  My wife called him a few weeks ago and urged him to get the vaccine.  His response was standard for him (he's a complete pushover and only does what his wife tells him to do) - "I'm going to talk to my doctor first."  Ok, great, do that.  He's still not vaccinated, to my knowledge, probably because his wife told him that he can't get it. 


As far as the COVID vaccine being "experimental?"   Let's not confuse "emergency use" with "experimental."   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 30, 2021, 12:23:52 PM

Quote from: T-ski on April 30, 2021, 11:50:12 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on April 30, 2021, 11:43:47 AM

Almost half of the country voted Republican and most on that party believe the vaccine is not needed.  Not surprised.  Add those afraid of the side affects and you get the slow down.

I have a lot of Republican friends and family and they all have been vaccinated, so I’ll slightly disagree with that one point.

Sure but the majority not wanting to get vaccinated are from the republican part.  i know it's a blanket statement but in my circle, I know one Democrat who is afraid to get the shot and all others are republicans saying it's a hoax.  I don't need it.  Get rid of masks ect. So I'd say the majority is Republican.

Nothing wrong with that, their choice, just my observation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on April 30, 2021, 12:25:05 PM

Also majority can be 60/40, 70/30.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on April 30, 2021, 12:53:58 PM

It's not up to the scientific community to embrace holistic medicine. If the American Indian community esoterically claims that herbs and essential oils work, then it's up to them to go through the rigors of the scientific method, test, make their tests repeatable and then publish their results for others to replicate and either confirm or disprove. Once proven, we will believe.

It's like  the flat-earthers saying that the scientific community has not embraced flat earth "theory" when they are so lazy that they can't even charter a ship to go to Antarctica and take pictures of the edge but hey - we're supposed to believe it without proof....  :tdwn

BTW - do just a little research and the allergy shots my wife gets monthly contains allergens to the things she's allergic too. Same thing but scientifically confirmed unlike esoteric mumbo-jumbo.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 30, 2021, 01:53:21 PM

I can't find the article now but earlier today I was reading a piece on CNN where they were talking about vaccine hesitancy and debunking some of the flawed reasons people are giving for not getting the vaccine and one of the big ones is "because it's only had 'emergency use' authorization and hasn't been around long enough to know the long-term effects"


The reason this is a flawed argument, according to the immunologist who wrote the piece, is because when there ARE notable side-effects with vaccines they are ALWAYS presented in the first 60 days after being administered.  This took into consideration all vaccines going back to the oral polio vaccine that those of us of a certain age got on sugar cubes when we were in grammar school.  They listed about 25 major vaccines from the polio vaccine to yellow fever to whooping cough to shingles and measles among other less recognizable ones.  All of them, without exception, were safe and had very little occurence of major side-effects and when there WERE major side effects they always happened within 60 days from being administered.


Which is why the emergency use authorizations required that the manufacturers wait until 60 days after the trials before distributing anything to the general public.  So the rationale that "we don't know the long-term effects of the vaccine" is pretty much bunk.


I'm going to look again and see if I can find that article, it was a good read and not too long.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 01:55:29 PM

Just heard that the medical community in India is saying that due to testing inadequacies across the country, actual cases may be up to 10x the tested ones. So instead of 350k cases a day, they may be looking to up to 3.5 million cases.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 30, 2021, 01:58:52 PM

FOUND IT!!


https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/28/health/covid-vaccine-myths-debunked/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/28/health/covid-vaccine-myths-debunked/index.html)

Quote

"If there were going to (be) problems ... they would become apparent within two months of people getting vaccinated," he said. "That's what the FDA waited for."


The most serious vaccine side effects in history have all been caught within six weeks, said Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital in Philadelphia and a member of the FDA's Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee.


"I would say, please tell me what vaccine has ever been shown to cause a long-term side effect that was not picked up in the first two months," said Offit, a co-creator of the rotavirus vaccine who has studied vaccinology for more than four decades.


"The smallpox vaccine could cause inflammation of the heart muscle. The oral polio vaccine was a rare cause of polio -- it occurred in roughly 1 in 2.4 million doses. ... The yellow fever vaccine is a rare cause of ... yellow fever. All those occurred within six weeks of getting a dose," he said.



There may be very rare side effects that aren't immediately found in clinical trials. But that's due to the extreme rarity of those side effects -- "not because it's a long-term problem," Offit said.


"Sometimes you're not going to pick it up initially because it's extremely rare, so you aren't going to pick up a one-in-a-million risk in a trial of 44,000 people," he said.


Pfizer/BioNTech and Johnson & Johnson had about 44,000 participants in each of their trials. Half the volunteers got vaccinated, and the other half got placebos.


The Moderna trial had about 30,000 participants, with half receiving vaccines and half receiving placebos.
And because coronavirus is highly contagious -- killing more than half a million Americans and leaving many survivors with long-term complications -- you're much better off getting the vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 03:01:18 PM

Quote from: ariich on April 30, 2021, 10:25:46 AM

Quote from: Stadler on April 30, 2021, 09:18:22 AM

Quote from: ariich on April 30, 2021, 09:14:10 AM

darkshade, not sure if you're just baiting/trolling, but assuming you're not:

1. The concerns for India aren't about total numbers of cases and deaths over the past year, they are about the rapidly rising cases and deaths NOW.

2. Some media sites and random people on social media have used old photos thinking they're from the current crisis. Not sure what your point is. Do you think that means the crisis isn't real, and that every single news site has also used old photos?

I can't speak for darkshade, or answer number one, but I know for number 2, it's a credibility issue.   SO MUCH of media is hyperbolic exaggeration, that going for the heartbreaking picture of the woman tied to an oxygen tank - even if a current photo - is part of the problem.  At least with me, if you have a concern, state it in plain language and trust me to prioritize it accordingly.   You know full well, from your criticisms in the past on the right and outlets like Fox News (and I've noted that it's not solely Fox) that some people don't bother to dig in.  That's basically a lie, and if someone sees that and says "wow, India sucks!" that's not helping anyone in the long run.

Agreed, all completely valid criticisms of (in this case) the NY Post. The other example was some random person on Twitter.

But that doesn't make the issue less real, which is what those images were supposed to imply.

I only speak for me, but I think we need to get past "implication" when it comes to  basic news, and stick to the facts.  I honestly think that it is in part a cause of what we're seeing today in terms of skepticism (or outright rejection) of science.   I think in this context, it's just as bad to have the right answer for the wrong reasons as it is to have the wrong answer for any reason.  Because it impedes our critical thinking, and it lessens our analytical skills. If we're not taking the data and drawing our own conclusions, it leads to the sort of misunderstanding we're seeing every day.  You can't realy criticize Sean Hannity for giving false information in order to "implicitly" further his agenda if you're willing to do or be party to the same thing; it doesn't matter whether you agree with the outcome or not.  When you can't rely wholly on the underlying data, you have NO CHOICE but to fall back on your experiences, your feelings and your intuition.  That's human nature.

I'll cop to having a higher level of skepticism on things (until I get multiple data sources) based on the form of the message.  I've stopped watching cable news entirely because I simply cannot trust that the hyperbole that is so prevalent in the deliver of the "news" is irrelevant to the message.  We live in an "X-treme" age.  Everything is "super" (I'm "super excited!"; that record was "super sad"; that movie was "super funny!").  Why can't we just be excited? Sad?  Funny?   If your message isn't powerful enough using the basic facts, the answer ought not be to supersize it, but to be honest that maybe your point doesn't mean what you THINK it does in the grand scheme of things.  There's no crime in that.  Not every story has to be the breaking of the Watergate scandal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 01, 2021, 12:15:47 AM

Quote from: lonestar on April 30, 2021, 11:34:35 AM

Quote from: T-ski on April 30, 2021, 07:38:11 AM

Vaccination rates have plateaued in the mid 30% range in my area.  The vaccinations are plentiful but people just aren’t getting them anymore. Not ideal.

Seems to be the numbers nationwide. I just don't get it. It's getting to the point where covid deaths going forward are a direct result of the apothetic, the arrogant, and the lazy. I'm sure there's about a billion people in India who'd give anything to be able to get vaccinated same day with a simple phone call and short trip. I just don't get it.

They should give Bill Gates a phone call...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 01, 2021, 02:57:34 AM

Because Bill Gates has stockpiled all the Covid vacines so that nobody else can use them?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 01, 2021, 04:55:03 AM

Whenever discussing this virus someone brings up Bill Gates as some kind of puppet master, that's when you know you can completely disregard and ignore everything that person says.

Life is short, you can't indulge everything and everyone. You say we've not been on the Moon? I stop paying attention to what you say. You assume Bill Gates is an evil mastermind just because in the past he used his wealth to fight contagious diseases and therefore he knows what he's talking about when he warns of the dangers of pandemics, and you somehow translate that into proof of a conspiracy and a plan announced to the whole world in advance ? I stop paying attention to what you say.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 01, 2021, 07:27:41 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 01, 2021, 04:55:03 AM

Whenever discussing this virus someone brings up Bill Gates as some kind of puppet master, that's when you know you can completely disregard and ignore everything that person says.

Life is short, you can't indulge everything and everyone. You say we've not been on the Moon? I stop paying attention to what you say. You assume Bill Gates is an evil mastermind just because in the past he used his wealth to fight contagious diseases and therefore he knows what he's talking about when he warns of the dangers of pandemics, and you somehow translate that into proof of a conspiracy and a plan announced to the whole world in advance ? I stop paying attention to what you say.

Yup,thats when I hit the fuck off button.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 01, 2021, 03:07:55 PM

Got my second shot this morning.  Barely even hurt going in.  A few hours later I had a slight headache and felt lightheaded and tired.  Took a very short nap and I feel.alright so far.  Just a bit tired.

Happy to know that I've had both doses and don't have to wait any longer for fuller protection.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 01, 2021, 04:23:37 PM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2021, 03:07:55 PM

Happy to know that I've had both doses and don't have to wait any longer for fuller protection.

Actually it takes 3 weeks for maximum protection to be reached, FYI.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Your guess is as good as mine. Mostly people who say the things they believe. But contrary to what most people think, there are very sophisticated arguments against vaccines, citing studies and being said by people with fairly impressive credentials. The movement is not based on memes or simple arguments, which seems to be what most people think.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 01, 2021, 04:42:39 PM

it's similar to climate change where yeah there's scientists out there going "against the grain" so to speak and it's not that they're automatically wrong of course but really it's not up to us to make that decision.  I mean that in the sense that none of us have the time, ability, knowledge etc. to parse it out but there ARE people who's job it is to do that, that's what peer reviewing is.    So when we hear about scientific conscensus it isn't a question of group think, or blindly following, or "sheeple" or whatever.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 01, 2021, 05:36:34 PM

Quote from: ariich on May 01, 2021, 04:23:37 PM

Quote from: Grappler on May 01, 2021, 03:07:55 PM

Happy to know that I've had both doses and don't have to wait any longer for fuller protection.

Actually it takes 3 weeks for maximum protection to be reached, FYI.

I knew someone would chime in and say that.  Yes, I'm aware.  But I've been sitting around for a month knowing that I've only had one of two shots.  It's nice to know that I've had my second and can relax a bit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 01, 2021, 05:46:12 PM

COVID 19 and the Vaccine - A Message from the National Turtle Lodge Council of Knowledge Keepers (https://youtu.be/eTUZnhkKQpw)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 02, 2021, 05:05:49 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Your guess is as good as mine. Mostly people who say the things they believe. But contrary to what most people think, there are very sophisticated arguments against vaccines, citing studies and being said by people with fairly impressive credentials. The movement is not based on memes or simple arguments, which seems to be what most people think.

Uh, no offense but I have yet to see a single science-based argument against vaccines and in fact most if not all of the arguments I've seen against vaccines are somewhere between batshit crazy and ignorant. 


Show me a single peer-reviewed scientific study that says vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.  Just one.  That's all I ask.  But it needs to be peer-reviewed and issued by actual credentialed scientists and by "credentialed" I mean traditionally credentialed, as in people who are truly qualified, not some crackpot antivaxxer whackadoo fucknut.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 02, 2021, 05:58:35 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 02, 2021, 05:05:49 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Your guess is as good as mine. Mostly people who say the things they believe. But contrary to what most people think, there are very sophisticated arguments against vaccines, citing studies and being said by people with fairly impressive credentials. The movement is not based on memes or simple arguments, which seems to be what most people think.

Uh, no offense but I have yet to see a single science-based argument against vaccines and in fact most if not all of the arguments I've seen against vaccines are somewhere between batshit crazy and ignorant. 


Show me a single peer-reviewed scientific study that says vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.  Just one.  That's all I ask.  But it needs to be peer-reviewed and issued by actual credentialed scientists and by "credentialed" I mean traditionally credentialed, as in people who are truly qualified, not some crackpot antivaxxer whackadoo fucknut.

I'm not saying the studies or the people involved are at the same level as the peer reviewed studies you're referring to. Just that on the surface the arguments against vaccines are more sophisticated than most realize. I agree that they don't hold up to rigorous scrutiny and I haven't looked into it a whole lot. But it's certainly enough to make a lot of people question the mainstream narrative. I haven't dug into the credentials of any of the anti-vax people since I don't care, but again on the surface many seem intelligent and very educated. Again, a lot of it boils down to extreme lack of trust toward the pharma companies and government healthcare agencies. I don't know how that trust is rebuilt, but that would go a long way to making things better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:05:11 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 02, 2021, 05:58:35 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 02, 2021, 05:05:49 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Your guess is as good as mine. Mostly people who say the things they believe. But contrary to what most people think, there are very sophisticated arguments against vaccines, citing studies and being said by people with fairly impressive credentials. The movement is not based on memes or simple arguments, which seems to be what most people think.

Uh, no offense but I have yet to see a single science-based argument against vaccines and in fact most if not all of the arguments I've seen against vaccines are somewhere between batshit crazy and ignorant. 


Show me a single peer-reviewed scientific study that says vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.  Just one.  That's all I ask.  But it needs to be peer-reviewed and issued by actual credentialed scientists and by "credentialed" I mean traditionally credentialed, as in people who are truly qualified, not some crackpot antivaxxer whackadoo fucknut.

I'm not saying the studies or the people involved are at the same level as the peer reviewed studies you're referring to. Just that on the surface the arguments against vaccines are more sophisticated than most realize. I agree that they don't hold up to rigorous scrutiny and I haven't looked into it a whole lot. But it's certainly enough to make a lot of people question the mainstream narrative. I haven't dug into the credentials of any of the anti-vax people since I don't care, but again on the surface many seem intelligent and very educated. Again, a lot of it boils down to extreme lack of trust toward the pharma companies and government healthcare agencies. I don't know how that trust is rebuilt, but that would go a long way to making things better.

It's the lack of trust and the lack of respect. There are people who do not trust or respect, what is termed "Mainstream" Science.

People are being labelled "Anti-Vax" just because they do not want to take ONE vaccine shot, and are, in some logic, therefore branded as stupid, dumb, and ignorant. When in fact some are Smart, Educated, and we'll informed. Their choice and decisions were really thought out and considered, and in the end, they chose not to get it.

See, this is where it is. What have you, as an individual, done to your own health that has affected you and made your body the way it is today? Were people forcing you to do these things or not? Now, what are you doing as an individual, to stop yourself from getting it. No one else but you, is in charge of your body, only you have that control over what you put into it and what you do to it.

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?


Do the people that attack the ones that do not want to take it actually care, or are they just worried about themselves, and do they know that every day we assume risks of death. This virus is just another high risk that we are faced with now. And I have told why I believe this virus appeared and made the world shut down.

Are people actually being responsible and looking at themselves and reflecting on all the things they have done and were told not to do because it will affect your body and health, yet did it anyways, and now are here worrying. (I am not blaming that person for their choices).


This is the thing, people are so vastly different and there is no way we agree 100% on issues because of difference of perspectives. What we humans do, is compromise, and find ways to solve issues, which then we all agree and follow along. As leaders get more controlling and demanding, those that do not follow will leave, and eventually if the leader doesn't snap, the village will be gone. It's the end of "BE" when Mr. Money wakes up alone and all that's left to rule is ruins.


Governments are killing people, Nature kills peoples, peoples are dying regardless. And it's why this virus should be that wake up call to all of us humans. Not in that we need to take the Vaccines...more so, we need to realize this world is all we got and we need to take care of her and respect her because what she is telling us with this sickness is that she is sick.

The only thing that can help in the long term is us humans doing what we can to better the Earth and Replenish what our Greed and Disrespect have demolished and diminished.

And you know what I think can help us immensely...Hemp.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 08:15:37 AM

Quote

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?

I am so sick of seeing you continually bringing this up in relation to covid.  It’s frankly insulting to everyone’s intelligence. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:25:36 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 08:15:37 AM

Quote

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?

I am so sick of seeing you continually bringing this up in relation to covid.  It’s frankly insulting to everyone’s intelligence.

Care to explain why?


A person can take the vaccine. And then suddenly die from something else. It's not guaranteed we will live another day. It's why my people pray every morning and thank our creator and the sun for a brand new day.

What is the anger at the unvaccinated form Covid really about?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 02, 2021, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 02, 2021, 05:58:35 AM

I'm not saying the studies or the people involved are at the same level as the peer reviewed studies you're referring to. Just that on the surface the arguments against vaccines are more sophisticated than most realize. I agree that they don't hold up to rigorous scrutiny and I haven't looked into it a whole lot. But it's certainly enough to make a lot of people question the mainstream narrative. I haven't dug into the credentials of any of the anti-vax people since I don't care, but again on the surface many seem intelligent and very educated. Again, a lot of it boils down to extreme lack of trust toward the pharma companies and government healthcare agencies. I don't know how that trust is rebuilt, but that would go a long way to making things better.

That's a good point. I got the vaccine last month and was thrilled to get it, but I get the natural distrust of pharma companies.  I have known a few people whose lives where turned upside down by freaking anti-depressants that made their lives a living hell (one person, an ex-girlfriend, got so messed up on them that it literally took her six months to ween herself off of them, as they were so addictive that she could not just stop taking it, she had to slowly lower her dosage every x-number of days until she could eventually go off it altogether), and yet doctors still prescribe them like they are an instant cure.  Feels like far too often doctors take the "Hmmm, not really sure what the problem is, so let's just prescribe some drug to see if it helps, and we can reassess later" approach.  Sorry if that feels like a tangent, but as times goes on, I have less and less faith in the medical community as a whole.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:30:41 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 02, 2021, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 02, 2021, 05:58:35 AM

I'm not saying the studies or the people involved are at the same level as the peer reviewed studies you're referring to. Just that on the surface the arguments against vaccines are more sophisticated than most realize. I agree that they don't hold up to rigorous scrutiny and I haven't looked into it a whole lot. But it's certainly enough to make a lot of people question the mainstream narrative. I haven't dug into the credentials of any of the anti-vax people since I don't care, but again on the surface many seem intelligent and very educated. Again, a lot of it boils down to extreme lack of trust toward the pharma companies and government healthcare agencies. I don't know how that trust is rebuilt, but that would go a long way to making things better.

That's a good point. I got the vaccine last month and was thrilled to get it, but I get the natural distrust of pharma companies.  I have known a few people whose lives where turned upside down by freaking anti-depressants that made their lives a living hell (one person, an ex-girlfriend, got so messed up on them that it literally took her six months to ween herself off of them, as they were so addictive that she could not just stop taking it, she had to slowly lower her dosage every x-number of days until she could eventually go off it altogether), and yet doctors still prescribe them like they are an instant cure.  Feels like far too often doctors take the "Hmmm, not really sure what the problem is, so let's just prescribe some drug to see if it helps, and we can reassess later" approach.  Sorry if that feels like a tangent, but as times goes on, I have less and less faith in the medical community as a whole.

Like some of our doctors in the Indian Health Services. There's this thing they do with us and say..."oh it's just a virus, just go home and get some rest. I'll prescribe these, and if you feel worse, come back in."

Unfortunately, some doctors actually treated us as not important enough, and some actually treat us a certain way and consider us dumb natives because we are diabetic, and all this, because of what we eat, like cokes, and frybread.

That's a sure fine way to earn respect and trust.

And some are just in it for the money, and will do and go wherever the money is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 08:50:33 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:25:36 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 08:15:37 AM

Quote

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?

I am so sick of seeing you continually bringing this up in relation to covid.  It’s frankly insulting to everyone’s intelligence.

 

Care to explain why?


A person can take the vaccine. And then suddenly die from something else. It's not guaranteed we will live another day. It's why my people pray every morning and thank our creator and the sun for a brand new day.

What is the anger at the unvaccinated form Covid really about?

no the anger is at you specifically for continually saying that people dying from covid did it to themselves.  As if good health is an automatic protection from it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 02, 2021, 08:58:13 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:30:41 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 02, 2021, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 02, 2021, 05:58:35 AM

I'm not saying the studies or the people involved are at the same level as the peer reviewed studies you're referring to. Just that on the surface the arguments against vaccines are more sophisticated than most realize. I agree that they don't hold up to rigorous scrutiny and I haven't looked into it a whole lot. But it's certainly enough to make a lot of people question the mainstream narrative. I haven't dug into the credentials of any of the anti-vax people since I don't care, but again on the surface many seem intelligent and very educated. Again, a lot of it boils down to extreme lack of trust toward the pharma companies and government healthcare agencies. I don't know how that trust is rebuilt, but that would go a long way to making things better.

That's a good point. I got the vaccine last month and was thrilled to get it, but I get the natural distrust of pharma companies.  I have known a few people whose lives where turned upside down by freaking anti-depressants that made their lives a living hell (one person, an ex-girlfriend, got so messed up on them that it literally took her six months to ween herself off of them, as they were so addictive that she could not just stop taking it, she had to slowly lower her dosage every x-number of days until she could eventually go off it altogether), and yet doctors still prescribe them like they are an instant cure.  Feels like far too often doctors take the "Hmmm, not really sure what the problem is, so let's just prescribe some drug to see if it helps, and we can reassess later" approach.  Sorry if that feels like a tangent, but as times goes on, I have less and less faith in the medical community as a whole.

Like some of our doctors in the Indian Health Services. There's this thing they do with us and say..."oh it's just a virus, just go home and get some rest. I'll prescribe these, and if you feel worse, come back in."

Unfortunately, some doctors actually treated us as not important enough, and some actually treat us a certain way and consider us dumb natives because we are diabetic, and all this, because of what we eat, like cokes, and frybread.

That's a sure fine way to earn respect and trust.

And some are just in it for the money, and will do and go wherever the money is.

Yep, and that is the crux of the problem. The more meds you take and the longer you are sick, the more money the medical community makes off of you.  I am sure there are many medical issues that are a lot more easily fixable than they would have us realize, but that won't put fat stacks in their pockets.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 09:24:26 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 08:50:33 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:25:36 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 08:15:37 AM

Quote

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?

I am so sick of seeing you continually bringing this up in relation to covid.  It’s frankly insulting to everyone’s intelligence.

 

Care to explain why?


A person can take the vaccine. And then suddenly die from something else. It's not guaranteed we will live another day. It's why my people pray every morning and thank our creator and the sun for a brand new day.

What is the anger at the unvaccinated form Covid really about?

no the anger is at you specifically for continually saying that people dying from covid did it to themselves.  As if good health is an automatic protection from it.

Did you even read what was in the parentheses...I am not blaming anyone for their choices.

And being in Good Health means you won't be getting severe symptoms from it. Being healthy and in good health is better for everyone, in the long run.

But I know that we humans are not immune to sickness and disease because we are eating healthy. But being healthy will help you fight the sicknesses. Hence why the doctors tell us to be as healthy as we possibly can.

Humans are not indestructible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 09:28:13 AM

good health doesn’t prevent severe symptoms

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 09:33:20 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 02, 2021, 08:58:13 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:30:41 AM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 02, 2021, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 02, 2021, 05:58:35 AM

I'm not saying the studies or the people involved are at the same level as the peer reviewed studies you're referring to. Just that on the surface the arguments against vaccines are more sophisticated than most realize. I agree that they don't hold up to rigorous scrutiny and I haven't looked into it a whole lot. But it's certainly enough to make a lot of people question the mainstream narrative. I haven't dug into the credentials of any of the anti-vax people since I don't care, but again on the surface many seem intelligent and very educated. Again, a lot of it boils down to extreme lack of trust toward the pharma companies and government healthcare agencies. I don't know how that trust is rebuilt, but that would go a long way to making things better.

That's a good point. I got the vaccine last month and was thrilled to get it, but I get the natural distrust of pharma companies.  I have known a few people whose lives where turned upside down by freaking anti-depressants that made their lives a living hell (one person, an ex-girlfriend, got so messed up on them that it literally took her six months to ween herself off of them, as they were so addictive that she could not just stop taking it, she had to slowly lower her dosage every x-number of days until she could eventually go off it altogether), and yet doctors still prescribe them like they are an instant cure.  Feels like far too often doctors take the "Hmmm, not really sure what the problem is, so let's just prescribe some drug to see if it helps, and we can reassess later" approach.  Sorry if that feels like a tangent, but as times goes on, I have less and less faith in the medical community as a whole.

Like some of our doctors in the Indian Health Services. There's this thing they do with us and say..."oh it's just a virus, just go home and get some rest. I'll prescribe these, and if you feel worse, come back in."

Unfortunately, some doctors actually treated us as not important enough, and some actually treat us a certain way and consider us dumb natives because we are diabetic, and all this, because of what we eat, like cokes, and frybread.

That's a sure fine way to earn respect and trust.

And some are just in it for the money, and will do and go wherever the money is.

Yep, and that is the crux of the problem. The more meds you take and the longer you are sick, the more money the medical community makes off of you.  I am sure there are many medical issues that are a lot more easily fixable than they would have us realize, but that won't put fat stacks in their pockets.

Like in Requiem For A Dream when Mary Goldfarb wants to get thin to fit in her nice red dress, so she can be on television. Her friend tells her about a doctor and to see him. She does and he prescribes her "Diet Pills". She ends up becoming dependant and her son tells her "You on uppers" and her response...."How do you know? How do you know more than a doctor?" And he says " I just do"....

At the end she spirals downard and ends up in a mental institution as her dependancy caused her to become delusional.


And it's sad how these doctors play on people that want a quick fix. But some issues can't be solved with a. Quick fix or flexiseal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 02, 2021, 09:49:50 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 09:28:13 AM

good health doesn’t prevent severe symptoms

Quoting for emphasis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 09:50:23 AM

As I said....

Humans are not indestructible....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 04:13:53 PM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 01, 2021, 04:55:03 AM

Whenever discussing this virus someone brings up Bill Gates as some kind of puppet master, that's when you know you can completely disregard and ignore everything that person says.

Life is short, you can't indulge everything and everyone. You say we've not been on the Moon? I stop paying attention to what you say. You assume Bill Gates is an evil mastermind just because in the past he used his wealth to fight contagious diseases and therefore he knows what he's talking about when he warns of the dangers of pandemics, and you somehow translate that into proof of a conspiracy and a plan announced to the whole world in advance ? I stop paying attention to what you say.

I said nothing about conspiracy theories. No theories here: https://in.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-vaccine-formulas-shouldnt-045605893.html (https://in.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-vaccine-formulas-shouldnt-045605893.html)

Also, is that what the CIA told you? To ignore people who question the government?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 02, 2021, 05:05:49 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Your guess is as good as mine. Mostly people who say the things they believe. But contrary to what most people think, there are very sophisticated arguments against vaccines, citing studies and being said by people with fairly impressive credentials. The movement is not based on memes or simple arguments, which seems to be what most people think.

Uh, no offense but I have yet to see a single science-based argument against vaccines and in fact most if not all of the arguments I've seen against vaccines are somewhere between batshit crazy and ignorant. 


Show me a single peer-reviewed scientific study that says vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.  Just one.  That's all I ask.  But it needs to be peer-reviewed and issued by actual credentialed scientists and by "credentialed" I mean traditionally credentialed, as in people who are truly qualified, not some crackpot antivaxxer whackadoo fucknut.

One thing these new vaccines have going against them is that they've killed more people than all other vaccine related deaths in the last 20 years. https://www.thehealthsite.com/news/post-vaccination-deaths-from-pfizer-is-far-more-than-from-astrazeneca-jabs-sputnik-study-809914/ (https://www.thehealthsite.com/news/post-vaccination-deaths-from-pfizer-is-far-more-than-from-astrazeneca-jabs-sputnik-study-809914/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 02, 2021, 04:20:01 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 02, 2021, 05:05:49 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Your guess is as good as mine. Mostly people who say the things they believe. But contrary to what most people think, there are very sophisticated arguments against vaccines, citing studies and being said by people with fairly impressive credentials. The movement is not based on memes or simple arguments, which seems to be what most people think.

Uh, no offense but I have yet to see a single science-based argument against vaccines and in fact most if not all of the arguments I've seen against vaccines are somewhere between batshit crazy and ignorant. 


Show me a single peer-reviewed scientific study that says vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.  Just one.  That's all I ask.  But it needs to be peer-reviewed and issued by actual credentialed scientists and by "credentialed" I mean traditionally credentialed, as in people who are truly qualified, not some crackpot antivaxxer whackadoo fucknut.

One thing these new vaccines have going against them is that they've killed more people than all other vaccine related deaths in the last 20 years.

Source?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 04:53:10 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 04:20:01 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 02, 2021, 05:05:49 AM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 01, 2021, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 01, 2021, 11:24:42 AM

I love when people post mainstream media rebuttals of vaccine concerns as if that's going to help. The anti-vax people do not trust the pharma companies. They do not trust the CDC and FDA. They certainly aren't going to trust the mainstream media regurgitating facts from any of those parties. I don't know what the answer is to combat it, but it's not what they've been trying so far.

Serious question... who/what do anti-vax people trust?  My perception is that they only trust themselves / other like-minded people.  The quintessential echo chamber.

Your guess is as good as mine. Mostly people who say the things they believe. But contrary to what most people think, there are very sophisticated arguments against vaccines, citing studies and being said by people with fairly impressive credentials. The movement is not based on memes or simple arguments, which seems to be what most people think.

Uh, no offense but I have yet to see a single science-based argument against vaccines and in fact most if not all of the arguments I've seen against vaccines are somewhere between batshit crazy and ignorant. 


Show me a single peer-reviewed scientific study that says vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.  Just one.  That's all I ask.  But it needs to be peer-reviewed and issued by actual credentialed scientists and by "credentialed" I mean traditionally credentialed, as in people who are truly qualified, not some crackpot antivaxxer whackadoo fucknut.

One thing these new vaccines have going against them is that they've killed more people than all other vaccine related deaths in the last 20 years.

Source?

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html)

https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=D100637F5DA5A503469AFFC717AE (https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=D100637F5DA5A503469AFFC717AE)

Query Criteria:
   
Date Died:   2000; 2001; 2002; 2003; 2004; 2005; 2006; 2007; 2008; 2009; 2010; 2011; 2012; 2013; 2014; 2015; 2016; 2017; 2018; 2019; 2020
Date of Onset:   2000; 2001; 2002; 2003; 2004; 2005; 2006; 2007; 2008; 2009; 2010; 2011; 2012; 2013; 2014; 2015; 2016; 2017; 2018; 2019; 2020
Date Report Completed:   2000; 2001; 2002; 2003; 2004; 2005; 2006; 2007; 2008; 2009; 2010; 2011; 2012; 2013; 2014; 2015; 2016; 2017; 2018; 2019; 2020
Date Vaccinated:   2000; 2001; 2002; 2003; 2004; 2005; 2006; 2007; 2008; 2009; 2010; 2011; 2012; 2013; 2014; 2015; 2016; 2017; 2018; 2019; 2020
Event Category:   Death
Group By:   Vaccine

Again, I'm not anti-vaxx, I'm anti-corporate takeover of society, which is what this whole pandemic has been about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 02, 2021, 04:57:01 PM

The second link didn’t work for me.

The first link said, best I could read, there was no evidence that the vaccines caused the deaths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 02, 2021, 05:04:26 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 04:57:01 PM

The second link didn’t work for me.

The first link said, best I could read, there was no evidence that the vaccines caused the deaths.

There is if you cherry pick one line and distance yourself from any normal level of basic reading comprehension.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:07:54 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 04:57:01 PM

The second link didn’t work for me.

The first link said, best I could read, there was no evidence that the vaccines caused the deaths.

Try this
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8 (https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8)

and this give you more direct links (though not most recent data)
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-injuries-covid-vaccine-cdc-data/ (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-injuries-covid-vaccine-cdc-data/)
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/latest-data-cdc-vaers/ (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/latest-data-cdc-vaers/)

The first link you referred to said this:

Quote

During this time, VAERS received 3,848 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

That's just deaths. That's not including other averse effects. It's like when a shooting happens and they tell you how many died, and how many were injured, but no one takes notice that those injured could very well be paralyzed, disfigured, or just plain messed up for the rest of their lives.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:07:54 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 04:57:01 PM

The second link didn’t work for me.

The first link said, best I could read, there was no evidence that the vaccines caused the deaths.

Try this
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8 (https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8)

and this give you more direct links (though not most recent data)
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-injuries-covid-vaccine-cdc-data/ (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-injuries-covid-vaccine-cdc-data/)
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/latest-data-cdc-vaers/ (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/latest-data-cdc-vaers/)

The first link you referred to said this:

Quote

During this time, VAERS received 3,848 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

That's just deaths. That's not including other averse effects. It's like when a shooting happens and they tell you how many died, and how many were injured, but no one takes notice that those injured could very well be paralyzed, disfigured, or just plain messed up for the rest of their lives.

Vaers is just random people reporting. Not scientific evidence of any sort. The article you first listed said there has been no credible link between the vaccine and those deaths.

Quote

A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:14:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:07:54 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 04:57:01 PM

The second link didn’t work for me.

The first link said, best I could read, there was no evidence that the vaccines caused the deaths.

Try this
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8 (https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8)

and this give you more direct links (though not most recent data)
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-injuries-covid-vaccine-cdc-data/ (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-injuries-covid-vaccine-cdc-data/)
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/latest-data-cdc-vaers/ (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/latest-data-cdc-vaers/)

The first link you referred to said this:

Quote

During this time, VAERS received 3,848 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

That's just deaths. That's not including other averse effects. It's like when a shooting happens and they tell you how many died, and how many were injured, but no one takes notice that those injured could very well be paralyzed, disfigured, or just plain messed up for the rest of their lives.

Vaers is just random people reporting. Not scientific evidence of any sort. The article you first listed said there has been no credible link between the vaccine and those deaths.

Quote

A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths.

I found it going through the CDC's website.
How would you seek out this data?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:18:45 PM

I’m not sure what you’re asking?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:20:27 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:18:45 PM

I’m not sure what you’re asking?

My sources weren't good enough, so if I can't get the info through the CDC and other health sites, where do I find the data related to all vaccine deaths and covid vaccine deaths?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:25:47 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

Quote

A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths.

The CDC also states 6% of those who reported to have died from the covid disease represents the true number of deaths.

I believe there is no evidence to show two airplanes could take down three skyscrapers either, but it happened one time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

I am honestly not sure what you’re talking about anymore. You’re asking where to find information to support a false claim? I wouldn’t know.

Either way this seems pretty silly. I’m out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 02, 2021, 05:51:49 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:05:11 AM

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?

As soon as corn syrup can be transmitted person to person involuntarily, this may start to become a valid point. Vaccines protect the group much more than they protect the individual.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 02, 2021, 06:01:29 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 08:15:37 AM

Quote

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?

I am so sick of seeing you continually bringing this up in relation to covid.  It’s frankly insulting to everyone’s intelligence. 

With all due respect (which isn't much), whether you personally are sick of someone bringing up a point is not relevant to ANYTHING.  You don't get to tell people what they can and cannot bring up here, and you don't get to bully people about their posting habits. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:06:58 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 02, 2021, 05:51:49 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 08:05:11 AM

Do you think it's a slap in the face to be Angry or Upset at the people that don't want the vaccine, while you are chowing down a Big Boy size soda from the gas station, while eating a glazed donut, and dipping it in high fructose corn syrup, knowing full well that this will kill you regardless, just not as fast and slower? Where is the personal responsibility?

As soon as corn syrup can be transmitted person to person involuntarily, this may start to become a valid point. Vaccines protect the group much more than they protect the individual.

High Fructose Corn Syrup is in a lot of things we eat. Just look at the ingredients on all the most popular brands of foods. And mostly everyone just has to have that name brand product.

And it's been in a lot of Commodity foods.

It's the reason why people are screaming why the healthy food is more expensive, that the less fortunate can't afford those foods and in turn, only get the less but more processed foods, that come in bulk.

But again...my question is....where is the personal responsibility of looking within yourself and not actually blaming someone else for your bodies illnesses. Since, it's hard to actually figure out how you caught it, that's why we have to wear masks because if we knew how we catch it, people would be easily placing blame on those people, because people need to blame someone for faults that could have been prevented by doing things that are already known.

I am not blaming healthy people either if they catch it. Nor am I blaming anyone for eating a poor diet and getting conditions that make them easy targets for the virus.

I also, know, that people that are healthy one day, can catch an illness or disease that can be life-changing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 06:13:00 PM

Quote

Nor am I blaming anyone for eating a poor diet and getting conditions that make them easy targets for the virus.

Except that's exactly what you're saying but bringing up personal responsability and underlying conditions.  As usual I'm surely misunderstanding.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 02, 2021, 06:24:26 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:06:58 PM

High Fructose Corn Syrup is in a lot of things we eat. Just look at the ingredients on all the most popular brands of foods. And mostly everyone just has to have that name brand product.

And it's been in a lot of Commodity foods.

It's the reason why people are screaming why the healthy food is more expensive, that the less fortunate can't afford those foods and in turn, only get the less but more processed foods, that come in bulk.

But again...my question is....where is the personal responsibility of looking within yourself and not actually blaming someone else for your bodies illnesses. Since, it's hard to actually figure out how you caught it, that's why we have to wear masks because if we knew how we catch it, people would be easily placing blame on those people, because people need to blame someone for faults that could have been prevented by doing things that are already known.

I am not blaming healthy people either if they catch it. Nor am I blaming anyone for eating a poor diet and getting conditions that make them easy targets for the virus.

I also, know, that people that are healthy one day, can catch an illness or disease that can be life-changing.

Sure. Some people win the lottery. Some smokers will never get cancer despite smoking 60 cigs a day. Others will get cancer before they are even born. However this is why it is important to look at the overall trends and statistics in order to know if something is effective. Stochastic health effects such as infection rates only make sense when you have a large enough sample size.

Correct mask usage and vaccines reduce overall infection and (in the latter case) hospitalisation and mortality in the population. This is why I am frustrated at people who ignore or forgo these measures. They probably wont kill me, but statistically the group they belong to WILL kill more people than those who comply with the measures. Choices that only increase your PERSONAL risk of illness or death are not comparable IMHO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:25:31 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 06:13:00 PM

Quote

Nor am I blaming anyone for eating a poor diet and getting conditions that make them easy targets for the virus.

Except that's exactly what you're saying but bringing up personal responsability and underlying conditions.  As usual I'm surely misunderstanding.

Because it's fact that an unhealthy diet causes some of the conditions that make people susceptible to the virus.

I am glad there are people whom know this and are actually getting themselves more fit and eating a better diet, a lot of people have been doing this. I've been seeing a lot more older people and just more people walking around, it's obvious here whom is active and who isn't, and since this pandemic, more of those inactive people started to become more active and some are changing their diets as well.

That's just fact, and not putting blame on anyone for their choices and decisions.

Its their body, it's their choice. It's not mine to make for them. Regardless if their choice affects people. Politicians choices affect many people as well, some much worse than others.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 06:33:36 PM

Quote from: Grappler on April 30, 2021, 12:23:08 PM

As far as the COVID vaccine being "experimental?"   Let's not confuse "emergency use" with "experimental."   :facepalm:

It's called "Experimental Biological Gene Therapy Immune Modulatory Injection". Clinical trials ongoing...

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvaccines%2Fcovid-19%2Finfo-by-product%2Fpfizer%2Fclinical-considerations.html (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvaccines%2Fcovid-19%2Finfo-by-product%2Fpfizer%2Fclinical-considerations.html)

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained (https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained)

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/physicians-covid-vaccines-are-experimental-and-should-never-be-mandated-or-forced (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/physicians-covid-vaccines-are-experimental-and-should-never-be-mandated-or-forced)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 06:34:53 PM

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/youtube-bans-frontline-doctors-speech-criticizing-experimental-agent-covid-vaccine (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/youtube-bans-frontline-doctors-speech-criticizing-experimental-agent-covid-vaccine)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 06:36:47 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:25:31 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 02, 2021, 06:13:00 PM

Quote

Nor am I blaming anyone for eating a poor diet and getting conditions that make them easy targets for the virus.

Except that's exactly what you're saying but bringing up personal responsability and underlying conditions.  As usual I'm surely misunderstanding.

Because it's fact that an unhealthy diet causes some of the conditions that make people susceptible to the virus.

I am glad there are people whom know this and are actually getting themselves more fit and eating a better diet, a lot of people have been doing this. I've been seeing a lot more older people and just more people walking around, it's obvious here whom is active and who isn't, and since this pandemic, more of those inactive people started to become more active and some are changing their diets as well.

That's just fact, and not putting blame on anyone for their choices and decisions.

Its their body, it's their choice. It's not mine to make for them. Regardless if their choice affects people. Politicians choices affect many people as well, some much worse than others.

but changing a diet doesn't protect someone from covid.  What is going here, am I going crazy?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 02, 2021, 06:37:21 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:25:47 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

Quote

A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths.

The CDC also states 6% of those who reported to have died from the covid disease represents the true number of deaths.

I believe there is no evidence to show two airplanes could take down three skyscrapers either, but it happened one time.

No - this was covered way earlier in the thread.  6% died from COVID alone.   94% had a co-morbidity, an underlying condition that COVID exacerbated and thus led to their death.  100% of the people who have died in this pandemic have died from COVID. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 02, 2021, 06:40:07 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 06:33:36 PM

Quote from: Grappler on April 30, 2021, 12:23:08 PM

As far as the COVID vaccine being "experimental?"   Let's not confuse "emergency use" with "experimental."   :facepalm:

It's called "Experimental Biological Gene Therapy Immune Modulatory Injection". Clinical trials ongoing...

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvaccines%2Fcovid-19%2Finfo-by-product%2Fpfizer%2Fclinical-considerations.html (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvaccines%2Fcovid-19%2Finfo-by-product%2Fpfizer%2Fclinical-considerations.html)

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained (https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained)

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/physicians-covid-vaccines-are-experimental-and-should-never-be-mandated-or-forced (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/physicians-covid-vaccines-are-experimental-and-should-never-be-mandated-or-forced)

The word "Experimental" does not appear on either the FDA or CDC sites. The group "America's Frontline Doctors", mentioned in the third link, do use the word experimental to describe the vaccines, however they also say that doctors refusing to use hydroxychloroquine (a drug that has absolutely no evidence supporting its use in COVID-19) are like the "good Germans who allow the Nazis to kill the Jews", so maybe take their words with a pinch of salt.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM

Quote from: Grappler on May 02, 2021, 06:37:21 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:25:47 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

Quote

A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths.

The CDC also states 6% of those who reported to have died from the covid disease represents the true number of deaths.

I believe there is no evidence to show two airplanes could take down three skyscrapers either, but it happened one time.

No - this was covered way earlier in the thread.  6% died from COVID alone.   94% had a co-morbidity, an underlying condition that COVID exacerbated and thus led to their death.  100% of the people who have died in this pandemic have died from COVID.

The point is the government has a way of twisting the truth, misleading, or falsifying info based on what they don't show. How many of those deaths were under the age of 50? 60? Many deaths attributed to Covid were actually other events, so no, not 100%

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 02, 2021, 06:42:29 PM

:zeltar:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 02, 2021, 06:43:56 PM

While I agree that the media and government are misleading,  it doesn't lessen those of those who died from the virus and those older.

Don't minimize those deaths because of their age.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 02, 2021, 06:51:30 PM

1. "They would have died of something else eventually" is an argument that applies to literally any premature death, ever.

2. The fact that the young are primarily not the ones dying from it does not mean that the younger age groups are unaffected. COVID has other consequences than death. Lung damage, permanent fatigue and the like.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 02, 2021, 06:55:10 PM

He was already on the edge. The guy pushed him but he eventually was going to jump.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 03, 2021, 05:58:49 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 02, 2021, 05:25:47 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 02, 2021, 05:13:33 PM

Quote

A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths.

The CDC also states 6% of those who reported to have died from the covid disease represents the true number of deaths.

I believe there is no evidence to show two airplanes could take down three skyscrapers either, but it happened one time.

There’s no evidence to show you’re a top shelf troll either, but here you are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on May 03, 2021, 06:17:45 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:25:31 PM

Because it's fact that an unhealthy diet causes some of the conditions that make people susceptible to the virus.

Is it?
I understand being in better physical health improves your chances of fighting the virus should you contract it.....but I've not heard about good physical health lowering the chance to catch it should you come into contact.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2021, 06:56:36 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on May 03, 2021, 06:17:45 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:25:31 PM

Because it's fact that an unhealthy diet causes some of the conditions that make people susceptible to the virus.

Is it?
I understand being in better physical health improves your chances of fighting the virus should you contract it.....but I've not heard about good physical health lowering the chance to catch it should you come into contact.

No one is immune to this virus. The fact is an unhealthy diet has affected people enough for them to become more likely to have severe symptoms, their risk is higher than those that are considered healthy.

Which if you are, you should consider getting the vaccine, if you personally are concerned. Those that are, rightfully, should be worried, and doing everything possible that will help them not catch it, or better yet, do things that can ease the symptoms a bit.

But there are those lucky ones that will get severe symptoms regardless, and that could involve many different factors to find out why they caught it.

Everyone's health and bodies are different and it hits people differently, most got it severely and died others not as bad. It's an unfortunate reality we as humans have to face now. And personally, for me, it's no one's fault but our own as human beings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 03, 2021, 06:57:43 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on May 03, 2021, 06:17:45 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:25:31 PM

Because it's fact that an unhealthy diet causes some of the conditions that make people susceptible to the virus.

Is it?
I understand being in better physical health improves your chances of fighting the virus should you contract it.....but I've not heard about good physical health lowering the chance to catch it should you come into contact.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/03/04/obesity-and-covid-death-rate-closely-linked-in-new-study/?sh=52bc8205643e

Vietnam, on the other hand, has the lowest Covid-19 death rate in the world (0.04 deaths per 100,000), and also reports the second-lowest rate of obesity (18.3% of adults).

The report highlights that there is “not a single example internationally” of a country with low levels of obesity—classified as less than 40% of the population overweight—and high death rates.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 03, 2021, 07:16:28 AM

Quote

“The good news for a very rare event is it will pop up on VAERS,” Goodman said on a call with reporters, referring to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System jointly run by the FDA and CDC since 1990.

But other potentially dangerous, unanticipated reactions to vaccines may not be so obvious in VAERS, a system that is believed to miss many potential side effects — or in the nation’s additional monitoring systems, including the Vaccine Safety Datalink and the CDC’s new phone-based tracking program, v-safe.

“It’s quite a hodgepodge of different systems of collecting data,” said Dr. Katherine Yih, a biologist and epidemiologist who specializes in vaccine surveillance at Harvard Pilgrim Health Care. “It’s worth stating that it’s not as good as it could be.”

The Vaccine Safety Datalink, though highly regarded, did not include enough vaccinations within its data from nine hospital systems covering 12 million people to catch the J&J issue, CDC officials said. And enrollment in v-safe has been less than expected, with about 6 million people enrolled by the end of March, just 6.4 percent of those who had been vaccinated at that point.


That means that, at a time when about 100 million Americans have been fully vaccinated against Covid-19, the U.S. continues to rely on a patchwork network of vaccine monitoring systems that may fail to monitor a large enough swath of the population, experts told KHN.

“I’m very concerned about this,” said Goodman, who also led the FDA’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, or CBER, and is now a professor of infectious diseases at Georgetown University. “I think we should be seeing that reporting on all of these vaccines. It was promised four months ago that it was happening.”

Quote

Vaccine safety experts said they were concerned that the FDA scaled back a system known as the Post-Licensure Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring network, or PRISM, long regarded as a workhorse of surveillance.

“Prior to PRISM, I felt like we were sort of in the dark ages,” Steve Anderson, director of the FDA’s Office of Biostatistics and Epidemiology, said at a 2016 workshop. “When PRISM came along, for us it was really a game changer.”

PRISM linked four large health plans in different parts of the country with eight state immunization registries. During the H1N1 pandemic, it detected signals for three adverse events possibly linked to the vaccines and was used to rule out the two that weren’t related and the one, Guillain-Barré syndrome, that was.

The system included records from nearly 40 million people, said Daniel Salmon, former director of vaccine safety at the National Vaccine Program Office. Having a large volume of records of vaccinated people “really drives your ability to figure out what’s going on,” he said


PRISM, which was repurposed for drug safety, now contains data from about 60 million people, but it has not been used to track vaccine reactions during the Covid-19 pandemic, said Salmon, who oversaw safety monitoring for the H1N1 vaccine.

“With PRISM, we tested it in a crisis and it operated for a decade,” he said. “I was really surprised when it wasn’t used for Covid-19. That was why we built it.”

A newer system, called the Biologics Effectiveness and Safety System, or BEST, was started in 2017, but only recently began monitoring data weekly for 15 pre-specified adverse events among Medicare recipients. It will be expanded to include commercial databases starting by the end of June, according to Capobianco, the FDA spokesperson.

Quote

The concern is that officials have leaned heavily on VAERS, a “passive” system that relies on reports from patients and health care providers to flag issues after vaccination that may or may not be related to the shots. A robust “active” surveillance system can search large volumes of patient care records to compare rates of adverse events in people who received vaccines with those who didn’t.

Quote

“VAERS performed exactly as intended in this case,” said Dr. Tom Shimabukuro, head of the CDC’s Covid-19 Vaccine Task Force.


That’s true, said Dr. Steven Black, co-director of the Global Vaccine Data Network. Still, he noted, there’s room for improvement, particularly more funding and better collaboration.

“This is a safeguard for our population,” Black said. “Whether it’s for the flu vaccines or the Covid vaccines, you need to have a viable and strong system. Just because we think they’re safe doesn’t mean you don’t need systems in place to back up that opinion.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1265986?__twitter_impression=true


Now that's pretty darn interesting information.  :corn

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 03, 2021, 12:35:23 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 02, 2021, 06:42:29 PM

:zeltar:

You got that right, brother  :facepalm:


We're fucking doomed  :|

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 03, 2021, 01:16:32 PM

I'd share the John Oliver piece from last night's Last Week Tonight about the non vaxxers.  But it's really nothing that hasn't been said here a gazillion times. 

NJ announced today you can get a free beer from one of the select breweries in the state if you present your vax card.  I don't think that moves the needle sadly.  Maybe some more incentive would do the trick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 03, 2021, 01:20:15 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 03, 2021, 01:16:32 PM

I'd share the John Oliver piece from last night's Last Week Tonight about the non vaxxers.  But it's really nothing that hasn't been said here a gazillion times. 

NJ announced today you can get a free beer from one of the select breweries in the state if you present your vax card.  I don't think that moves the needle sadly.  Maybe some more incentive would do the trick.

I don't think this helps either, since most people won't see the point in getting it if things reopened.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/most-pandemic-era-capacity-restrictions-end-tri-state-area-may-19-ny-governor-2021-05-03/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 03, 2021, 01:25:03 PM

Quote from: Vmadera00 on May 03, 2021, 01:20:15 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 03, 2021, 01:16:32 PM

I'd share the John Oliver piece from last night's Last Week Tonight about the non vaxxers.  But it's really nothing that hasn't been said here a gazillion times. 

NJ announced today you can get a free beer from one of the select breweries in the state if you present your vax card.  I don't think that moves the needle sadly.  Maybe some more incentive would do the trick.

I don't think this helps either, since most people won't see the point in getting it if things reopened.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/most-pandemic-era-capacity-restrictions-end-tri-state-area-may-19-ny-governor-2021-05-03/

Nice! I only just now went through the rest of the NJ governors tweets today, and it also includes the May 19 date.  Dining and outdoor capacitys will fully open.  This aligns with the timing of the outdoor summer concerts that are on schedule. Gives me hope these will actually happen!  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 03, 2021, 01:42:05 PM

My parents and I went and ate at a restaurant last night. It was the first time I've eaten indoors in 14+ months and we went to one of my favorite places. It definitely felt a little odd. I had dined out when I snuck away to the Cape last September, but that was all outdoors and it was the off-season of the most dead year ever up there, so we were basically eating alone. It felt super weird to do it. I wasn't uncomfortable or anything, just kind of weird. Part of the buzz kill might have been from the realization that I could be called back to the office any day now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2021, 01:48:04 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 03, 2021, 01:42:05 PM

My parents and I went and ate at a restaurant last night.

Great. We've gone out a handful of times over the last year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 03, 2021, 02:59:04 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 03, 2021, 01:16:32 PM

I'd share the John Oliver piece from last night's Last Week Tonight about the non vaxxers.  But it's really nothing that hasn't been said here a gazillion times.  .

Yeah, but I will, because I thought he did a great, great job, especially talking about different people's apprehensions, the reasons for them, and the best way to talk to them (maybe).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPHgRp70H8o

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 03, 2021, 03:00:15 PM

I forget if I wrote this or not (I think I did then deleted it) but I saw Gov't Mule and Ann Wilson last night in New Haven.  Got a couple beers, a pizza from Moderne, and went to see the show (outdoor former tennis arena).  It was awesome.  I wore my mask whenever I couldn't social distance, but I'll be honest: it was stressful.   It wasn't "back to normal" in the sense that it was always on my mind.  "Is this safe?"  "Am I stupid?".

By the way, Ann Wilson is the bomb.   I love that woman.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 03, 2021, 03:37:32 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 03, 2021, 03:00:15 PM

I forget if I wrote this or not (I think I did then deleted it) but I saw Gov't Mule and Ann Wilson last night in New Haven.  Got a couple beers, a pizza from Moderne, and went to see the show (outdoor former tennis arena).  It was awesome.  I wore my mask whenever I couldn't social distance, but I'll be honest: it was stressful.   It wasn't "back to normal" in the sense that it was always on my mind.  "Is this safe?"  "Am I stupid?".

By the way, Ann Wilson is the bomb.   I love that woman.

I think this is going to be normal for quite some time.  We've been conditioned for almost 15 months, being around people is dangerous, potentially even deadly.  It's going to take a while to de-program that.  For some (mrs.jingle) it could be many many months.  I don't want to put "years" in plural, but I can definitely see it lasting in to (and through) 2022 for some.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 03, 2021, 03:58:53 PM

Yes indeed, it's starting to feel different. For the first time in over a year, the employees at the hospital don't have to be temp screened. That is a big step.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 03, 2021, 04:10:34 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 03, 2021, 03:00:15 PM

I forget if I wrote this or not (I think I did then deleted it) but I saw Gov't Mule and Ann Wilson last night in New Haven.  Got a couple beers, a pizza from Moderne, and went to see the show (outdoor former tennis arena).  It was awesome.  I wore my mask whenever I couldn't social distance, but I'll be honest: it was stressful.   It wasn't "back to normal" in the sense that it was always on my mind.  "Is this safe?"  "Am I stupid?".

By the way, Ann Wilson is the bomb.   I love that woman.

Just saw blabbermouth picked this up on my feed, I guess they did some Zep covers. Glad you had fun.

And I agree, it feels different. I guess I'm 3 weeks into full return to work and I've slowly been opening back up myself so that right now it doesn't feel so odd anymore, but it's certainly an adjustment. Next concert should be interesting. Oh and I'm going into NYC for the first time in forever tomorrow to go on a date. That alone will be a bit of an odd feeling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 03, 2021, 04:59:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 03, 2021, 03:00:15 PM

I forget if I wrote this or not (I think I did then deleted it) but I saw Gov't Mule and Ann Wilson last night in New Haven.  Got a couple beers, a pizza from Moderne, and went to see the show (outdoor former tennis arena).  It was awesome.  I wore my mask whenever I couldn't social distance, but I'll be honest: it was stressful.   It wasn't "back to normal" in the sense that it was always on my mind.  "Is this safe?"  "Am I stupid?".

By the way, Ann Wilson is the bomb.   I love that woman.

I was literally just listening to her interview with Marc Maron that dropped today.  Her new album is out on Friday - I assume she played a bunch?  How was it?

FTR, you were safe and you weren't stupid.  That's the beauty of being vaccinated.   :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 05:38:25 PM

I for one am perfectly happy with social distancing becoming a permanent thing in public. Just keep staying the fuck away from me please. :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 07:56:40 PM

I just spent a few minutes browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Covid Vaccinations. The amount of fear mongering, misinformation, straight up bullshit, and hubris is unbelievable. And these are people from all over the world, they all seem to be middle class, and the group numbers over 20k.

Honestly, one way or another, I'm getting more and more convinced humanity is just fucked, and within a hundred years at the most. Between our response to Covid, our response to climate change, the wealth disparity and widespread world hunger, and our absolute inability to work together on anything, we're just fucked.

I'm gonna go pound a pint of ice cream now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2021, 07:59:53 PM

Oh shit. And I was just browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Ice Cream.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 08:09:15 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2021, 07:59:53 PM

Oh shit. And I was just browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Ice Cream.

Mandatory ice cream could save the world. Except for the lactose intolerant...those poor bastards.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2021, 08:16:38 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 08:09:15 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2021, 07:59:53 PM

Oh shit. And I was just browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Ice Cream.

Mandatory ice cream could save the world. Except for the lactose intolerant...those poor bastards.

Well, um...

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:06:58 PM

But again...my question is....where is the personal responsibility of looking within yourself and not actually blaming someone else for your bodies illnesses.

 ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 03, 2021, 08:34:08 PM

 :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 03, 2021, 08:34:30 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 07:56:40 PM

I just spent a few minutes browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Covid Vaccinations. The amount of fear mongering, misinformation, straight up bullshit, and hubris is unbelievable. And these are people from all over the world, they all seem to be middle class, and the group numbers over 20k.

Honestly, one way or another, I'm getting more and more convinced humanity is just fucked, and within a hundred years at the most. Between our response to Covid, our response to climate change, the wealth disparity and widespread world hunger, and our absolute inability to work together on anything, we're just fucked.

I'm gonna go pound a pint of ice cream now.

You should pull up a history book or two while you do that. We've been fucked for thousands of years.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2021, 08:16:38 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 08:09:15 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2021, 07:59:53 PM

Oh shit. And I was just browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Ice Cream.

Mandatory ice cream could save the world. Except for the lactose intolerant...those poor bastards.

Well, um...

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2021, 06:06:58 PM

But again...my question is....where is the personal responsibility of looking within yourself and not actually blaming someone else for your bodies illnesses.

 ;D

(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/180278724_1134714560377907_3183404411951162181_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=FQ6UE4mW_UMAX_kO_il&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=1dc6847f989ebe82c35a641b461a737e&oe=60B7ACD1)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 03, 2021, 08:41:42 PM

WOW!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 08:47:28 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2021, 08:41:42 PM

Who fucking adds cheese to chocolate??

And learn how to flip a bird.

Hey, I balanced ice cream on my belly while flipping the bird and taking a pic, that's supreme level multitasking. And it's a west coast bird...we're different out here.

And cheesecake ice cream is fucking bomb. One day your taste buds will go through puberty.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on May 03, 2021, 09:40:33 PM

I saw that Ben and Jerry flavour over here for the first time last week and flipped out.  It's fucking amazing, instant top 3.  I'm a sucker for cheesecake though, but this is perfect.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: wolfking on May 03, 2021, 09:41:27 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 08:47:28 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 03, 2021, 08:41:42 PM

Who fucking adds cheese to chocolate??

And learn how to flip a bird.

Hey, I balanced ice cream on my belly while flipping the bird and taking a pic, that's supreme level multitasking. And it's a west coast bird...we're different out here.

And cheesecake ice cream is fucking bomb. One day your taste buds will go through puberty.

Quoted for truth.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on May 04, 2021, 03:31:19 AM

One dose of Pfizer in the arm... feeling fine

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2021, 06:31:26 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 03, 2021, 04:59:08 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 03, 2021, 03:00:15 PM

I forget if I wrote this or not (I think I did then deleted it) but I saw Gov't Mule and Ann Wilson last night in New Haven.  Got a couple beers, a pizza from Moderne, and went to see the show (outdoor former tennis arena).  It was awesome.  I wore my mask whenever I couldn't social distance, but I'll be honest: it was stressful.   It wasn't "back to normal" in the sense that it was always on my mind.  "Is this safe?"  "Am I stupid?".

By the way, Ann Wilson is the bomb.   I love that woman.

I was literally just listening to her interview with Marc Maron that dropped today.  Her new album is out on Friday - I assume she played a bunch?  How was it?

FTR, you were safe and you weren't stupid.  That's the beauty of being vaccinated.   :tup

It was awesome, because I'm a fan boy*, but it was, in hindsight, weird.   The Mule played for an hour, and took a 15 minute break.  She came on with them for set two, and played four Zeppelin songs, one Tom Petty song and one Heart song.  Nothing from her solo album.   Then she left, the Mule played three more songs, and a one song encore.  It was great, don't misunderstand, but it didn't make sense, really, not in the context of the show.   

I didn't know she had an album coming out; I hope she tours, so I can see her solo.  Last time she toured solo she played a theater near me where I can usually get decent (sometimes excellent) seats.  I'd pay for first couple rows to hear her sing.

*  It was an outdoor show at a former tennis arena in New Haven.  My seats were on the side, obstructed view, but we moved over to the front row of the bowl, directly across from the stage.   I'm not a yeller or anything like that that would call attention to myself, but when she walked out it was still light and the crowd was pretty mellow.  She walked up to the mic and I yelled out (as a joke to my friend) "I love you Ann!" and waved, and she waved back.   Well, she waved, and the timing is such that I can with a clean conscience, say she was waving at me.  :) :) :)   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2021, 06:34:03 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 07:56:40 PM

I just spent a few minutes browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Covid Vaccinations. The amount of fear mongering, misinformation, straight up bullshit, and hubris is unbelievable. And these are people from all over the world, they all seem to be middle class, and the group numbers over 20k.

Honestly, one way or another, I'm getting more and more convinced humanity is just fucked, and within a hundred years at the most. Between our response to Covid, our response to climate change, the wealth disparity and widespread world hunger, and our absolute inability to work together on anything, we're just fucked.

I'm gonna go pound a pint of ice cream now.

Not telling you how to react - though ice cream is as good as any reaction, especially cheesecake ice cream - but 20k worldwide is not critical mass numbers.   I get the dangers of misinformation - many of my posts are intended as a response to that - but given that we can't eradicate EVERY falsehood, I'm good with "20k" out of "7.4 billion". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2021, 06:35:10 AM

I did my part! (https://www.wtnh.com/news/connecticut/ct-becomes-first-state-in-the-nation-to-reach-50-of-adults-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 04, 2021, 06:41:47 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2021, 06:35:10 AM

I did my part! (https://www.wtnh.com/news/connecticut/ct-becomes-first-state-in-the-nation-to-reach-50-of-adults-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19/)

Same! I can't wait to catch a Yard Goats game this summer  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 04, 2021, 06:50:10 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2021, 06:34:03 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 07:56:40 PM

I just spent a few minutes browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Covid Vaccinations. The amount of fear mongering, misinformation, straight up bullshit, and hubris is unbelievable. And these are people from all over the world, they all seem to be middle class, and the group numbers over 20k.

Honestly, one way or another, I'm getting more and more convinced humanity is just fucked, and within a hundred years at the most. Between our response to Covid, our response to climate change, the wealth disparity and widespread world hunger, and our absolute inability to work together on anything, we're just fucked.

I'm gonna go pound a pint of ice cream now.

Not telling you how to react - though ice cream is as good as any reaction, especially cheesecake ice cream - but 20k worldwide is not critical mass numbers.   I get the dangers of misinformation - many of my posts are intended as a response to that - but given that we can't eradicate EVERY falsehood, I'm good with "20k" out of "7.4 billion".

But that's just one group of what I'm assuming is many. And I'd bet really good money that a vast percentage of those members are middle or upper class white Americans, a country where getting vaccinated is so simple and available right now that we have the audacity to question it, our first world privilege shining brightly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 04, 2021, 07:56:23 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 04, 2021, 06:50:10 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 04, 2021, 06:34:03 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 03, 2021, 07:56:40 PM

I just spent a few minutes browsing through a Facebook group called Millions March Against Mandatory Covid Vaccinations. The amount of fear mongering, misinformation, straight up bullshit, and hubris is unbelievable. And these are people from all over the world, they all seem to be middle class, and the group numbers over 20k.

Honestly, one way or another, I'm getting more and more convinced humanity is just fucked, and within a hundred years at the most. Between our response to Covid, our response to climate change, the wealth disparity and widespread world hunger, and our absolute inability to work together on anything, we're just fucked.

I'm gonna go pound a pint of ice cream now.

Not telling you how to react - though ice cream is as good as any reaction, especially cheesecake ice cream - but 20k worldwide is not critical mass numbers.   I get the dangers of misinformation - many of my posts are intended as a response to that - but given that we can't eradicate EVERY falsehood, I'm good with "20k" out of "7.4 billion".

But that's just one group of what I'm assuming is many. And I'd bet really good money that a vast percentage of those members are middle or upper class white Americans, a country where getting vaccinated is so simple and available right now that we have the audacity to question it, our first world privilege shining brightly.

Without seeing the group, I won't argue that point.  I can certainly see that happening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 04, 2021, 08:13:22 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 04, 2021, 06:50:10 AM

a country where getting vaccinated is so simple and available right now that we have the audacity to question it, our first world privilege shining brightly.

This bothers me a lot. We may not be the best country in the world, I don't know how you measure that, but we certainly have the money and power to get every citizen vaccinated and yet, here we are.  It's truly astonishing and shows our first world privilege, and IMO how unintelligent we, as a nation, have become.  At this point, I will just point at India and South America as good examples of what happens when you don't have access to vaccines. Sadly, even the real time death tolls we are seeing don't even move the needle. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 04, 2021, 09:15:46 AM

Wrong thread

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 04, 2021, 09:19:13 AM

Today's stats:

Quote

So far, 148 million Americans have received at least one dose of a vaccine. At least 106 million people have completed a vaccination regimen.

39,938 positives reported yesterday compared to 47,741 week over week. 7-day rolling average is at 50,665

Fatality was 445 compared to 312 yesterday and 472 week over week, 7-day rolling fatality at 716.

Hospitalizations reported 7 day rolling average is 34,012 compared to one week ago 38,441 down 11.5%.

Hospital admissions reported 7 day rolling average is 4,626 compared to one week ago 5321 down 13.1%.

The numbers are dropping, sharply this week although I believe Monday/Tuesday numbers are always low due to states inconsistent reporting, but generally, the numbers are going down and the April "spike" is likely already over.

The proof is in the pudding, vaccines work.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-nearing-vaccine-tipping-point-100120417.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-nearing-vaccine-tipping-point-100120417.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 05, 2021, 08:11:42 AM

So if a bracelet were made available showing people that you have been vaccinated, would you wear one out in public? I know I would.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/05/business/immunaband-restaurant-covid-vaccination-trnd/index.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 05, 2021, 08:18:00 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 05, 2021, 08:11:42 AM

So if a bracelet were made available showing people that you have been vaccinated, would you wear one out in public? I know I would.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/05/business/immunaband-restaurant-covid-vaccination-trnd/index.html

Nope.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2021, 08:32:41 AM

Not sure.  My initial reaction is "no."  I think there are a lot of problems with something like that.  But on the other hand, if it made others around me more comfortable and I felt like they, as a whole, would want me to, I might consider it for the sake of putting others at ease.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2021, 08:35:30 AM

My first reaction is that it's just another "divider". We'll go from "hey that guy isn't wearing a mask" to "hey that guy doesn't have a bracelet on".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 08:42:24 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 05, 2021, 08:11:42 AM

So if a bracelet were made available showing people that you have been vaccinated, would you wear one out in public? I know I would.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/05/business/immunaband-restaurant-covid-vaccination-trnd/index.html

Hell no. It's no ones business if I've been vaccinated or not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2021, 08:44:01 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 05, 2021, 08:35:30 AM

My first reaction is that it's just another "divider". We'll go from "hey that guy isn't wearing a mask" to "hey that guy doesn't have a bracelet on".

I think you might be right about that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 05, 2021, 08:48:57 AM

I’d say no.

I’d recommend carrying around the vaccine card or maybe a mobile pass that isn’t on display unless you choose to show it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 05, 2021, 08:51:24 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 05, 2021, 08:48:57 AM

I’d say no.

I’d recommend carrying around the vaccine card or maybe a mobile pass that isn’t on display unless you choose to show it.

This right here.  No need to advertise / publicize it, but (just like I had for my kids growing up) a vaccine card isn't unreasonable (imo) for situations where it may be a requirement to provide demonstration (eg, air travel, concerts, sporting events ...)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 05, 2021, 08:51:50 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 05, 2021, 08:11:42 AM

So if a bracelet were made available showing people that you have been vaccinated, would you wear one out in public? I know I would.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/05/business/immunaband-restaurant-covid-vaccination-trnd/index.html

Nope. Just asking for a fight either verbally or physically. There are plenty of people out there who would go out of their way to let you know how 'dumb' you are for getting a vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 05, 2021, 08:54:27 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 05, 2021, 08:32:41 AM

Not sure.  My initial reaction is "no."  I think there are a lot of problems with something like that.  But on the other hand, if it made others around me more comfortable and I felt like they, as a whole, would want me to, I might consider it for the sake of putting others at ease.

I like this thinking, and if I were to do it I feel this would be the reason. But the arguments against are also good.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 05, 2021, 08:55:31 AM

I think the general public wearing them would never work in a million years, but I don't entirely hate the idea of a business owner with a lot of public-facing employees to maybe want something like this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 05, 2021, 08:59:42 AM

I got my whole medical records available on my phone at the touch of a button, so no.


Plus bracelets are fucking annoying to wear.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 05, 2021, 10:17:29 AM

Those of you who gave reasons, I completely concur.

To me - I think it's a good thing that is no different than wearing a necklace that tells whether your diabetic or whatever affliction you have that helps a first responder. But yes, it would certainly be weaponized by others and confrontations would certainly occur.

I think it would put a lot of people at ease and it would certainly put me at ease as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2021, 11:23:44 AM

But this is the downside of the "attack" culture we live in.  I've got a plastic cover - if anyone has ever been to a convention or whatever where you have the name tag pinned to your lapel, you know what I'm talking about - and my card in there.   I'm absolutely wearing a bracelet, or a neck lanyard, or whatever, because whatever "medical records" I own, they CLEARLY aren't respected by those who believe the vaccine is not optional, and I'm not interested in confrontations if I, fully vaccinated (as of earlier this week) walk in somewhere and some righteous do-gooder decides to get uppity. 

If MY medical records are no one's business, then that applies both ways:  it would follow that you (general, no one here) do not get to tell me what ought to be ON those medical records.  That's clearly not how we work here - if someone runs a store, they are entitled to tell me to leave if I'm not masked up/distanced/vaccinated - so I'm going to proceed accordingly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 05, 2021, 12:15:44 PM

I think there are better ways to handle this within the confines of current HIPPA regulations.  Healthcare is a private issue between you and your doctors.  Neither your employer nor any other citizen nor the government has any right to any information regarding your health.  That said, I do not know if there are any exceptions to HIPPA for public health emergencies like Covid, but what I do know is if people smarter than me decided it was a good idea to be able to identify who is and who is not vaccinated, I'd support the concept, but I'd have to understand how they'd go about it.  If it was all kept private and confidential I'd probably go along to get along. 


For example, if they require me to prove I've been vaccinated to fly commercially without a mask on, I don't think that's too invasive.  I also think companies have a right to require that customers are either vaccinated or masked if not vaccinated while in their business, whether that be a supermarket or a jet.


As I've mentioned elsewhere you can't put your kid in public school without proving they've been vaccinated and it's been that way for decades.  Adding Covid-19 to that list of required vaccinations for stuff like that doesn't seem all that controversial to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 05, 2021, 12:26:03 PM

I am against vaccine passports in general. I think it gives people a false sense of security.  We already know the vaccine cards can/are being forged.  If you are vaccinated, I don't think they are even needed.  I think they can be used to discriminate against people with children (who cannot be vaccinated) or people who cannot get the vaccine for health reasons.

I am fascinated by the discussions I have seen in other places about flights for vaccinated only people.  Mostly for the reasons above but also because I have a friend who's mother is a flight attendant for a large airline and who is staunchly anti-vax.  Her employer thus far is not requiring or even talking about requiring their employees be vaccinated and yet there is this whole bandwagon of people calling for vaccinated-only flights.  It feels a bit like a cart-before-the-horse scenario with what I know about the airline's employees.   :-\

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 05, 2021, 12:28:27 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 05, 2021, 12:15:44 PM

As I've mentioned elsewhere you can't put your kid in public school without proving they've been vaccinated and it's been that way for decades.  Adding Covid-19 to that list of required vaccinations for stuff like that doesn't seem all that controversial to me.

I'm truly astonished by the backlash of people saying they shouldn't need this, and yet, it's always been that way. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 05, 2021, 12:30:41 PM

Can't recall if this has been discussed, but this question came up this morning:

Should an employer be allowed to ask an employee if they have been vaccinated for COVID?

My knee jerk answer was "yes," but I thought about it a little more and now I am not so sure. 

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 05, 2021, 12:35:55 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 05, 2021, 12:30:41 PM

Can't recall if this has been discussed, but this question came up this morning:

Should an employer be allowed to ask an employee if they have been vaccinated for COVID?

My knee jerk answer was "yes," but I thought about it a little more and now I am not so sure. 

Thoughts?

Employers have a legal responsibility to provide a safe workplace. So I think in that regard, the answer is yes - for those that are working on their premises, and interacting with other employees. Last thing they want is a strike or lawsuit for failing to provide a safe place of work.

Problem is that this contradicts an individual’s right to privacy.

So I don’t know which prevails.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 05, 2021, 12:39:37 PM

Yeah but drug testing is already in place at many businesses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2021, 12:47:06 PM

Yeah, you've got it right, Chad.  There are competing interests and competing bodies of law that make it a thorny issue. 

From what I have been seeing, right now, because we are still in the midst of the pandemic and it is still at a level where it is dangerous, most of what I have been seeing is to err on the side of workplace safety, and there (perhaps rightly) does not seem to be much pushback on that.  And I think that that the "right" way to look at it.  But most of the situations we are actively dealing with right now involve situations like "what do I do if my employee comes to work when he/she is sick, and it is confirmed [or suspected] that it might be Covid?"  The answer generally is:  Tell them they have to stay home and they don't get to come back until they either test negative or quarantine for 2 weeks and have no symptoms upon return.  That's a bit different from:  You can't come in unless you have proof of vaccination.  That's trickier, to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 05, 2021, 01:00:39 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 05, 2021, 12:30:41 PM

Can't recall if this has been discussed, but this question came up this morning:

Should an employer be allowed to ask an employee if they have been vaccinated for COVID?

My knee jerk answer was "yes," but I thought about it a little more and now I am not so sure. 

Thoughts?

My employer is.  We're getting small SurveyMonkey surveys from HR every few weeks with questions like this:

1.  Do you intend to get vaccinated? 
2.  Have you received at least one dose?
3.  Will you feel comfortable not wearing a mask in the office after being vaccinated?

Etc.  It's anonymous to us and other coworkers, but HR must be able to see the individual answers - they sent an email saying my office is 70% vaccinated.  I think it's a nice tool for them to use and gauge whether employees still need to social distance or wear a mask in a particular office, based on the percentages that they are seeing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 05, 2021, 01:07:47 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 05, 2021, 12:26:03 PM

I am against vaccine passports in general. I think it gives people a false sense of security.  We already know the vaccine cards can/are being forged.  If you are vaccinated, I don't think they are even needed.  I think they can be used to discriminate against people with children (who cannot be vaccinated) or people who cannot get the vaccine for health reasons.

I am fascinated by the discussions I have seen in other places about flights for vaccinated only people.  Mostly for the reasons above but also because I have a friend who's mother is a flight attendant for a large airline and who is staunchly anti-vax.  Her employer thus far is not requiring or even talking about requiring their employees be vaccinated and yet there is this whole bandwagon of people calling for vaccinated-only flights.  It feels a bit like a cart-before-the-horse scenario with what I know about the airline's employees.   :-\

The discrimination is the part that (potentially) bothers me.  Barry mentions often - and he's right - that we have these requirements for schools all the time.  Along with that, though, is the fact that it's NOT anyone's business but the kid, the parent, the doctor and the school nurse.  There ARE kids in your schools systems that aren't vaccinated for various reasons.   You don't know about it, and - in terms of HIPAA - you shouldn't.  The difference is, you don't have to show your measles or dyptheria shot cred at The Home Depot.  I've said I'd probably show my card, but that's my personal choice.  If someone else doesn't want to, we're going to have a battle of competing rights.  (Plug in "HIV" for "vaccinated" and see if you think differently when it comes to medical information).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:26:53 PM

I'm against having to prove vaccination status for anything. Particularly a private business. They simply have no right to ask if I've received a medical treatment, just like they have no right to ask if I have a communicable disease. It is simply none of their business what is going on inside my body.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 05, 2021, 01:28:57 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:26:53 PM

I'm against having to prove vaccination status for anything. Particularly a private business. They simply have no right to ask if I've received a medical treatment, just like they have no right to ask if I have a communicable disease. It is simply none of their business what is going on inside my body.

But it is when we are talking about a contagious disease that goes beyond yourself.  Hence why this has been and will continue to happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 05, 2021, 01:35:23 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 05, 2021, 12:30:41 PM

Can't recall if this has been discussed, but this question came up this morning:

Should an employer be allowed to ask an employee if they have been vaccinated for COVID?

My knee jerk answer was "yes," but I thought about it a little more and now I am not so sure. 

Thoughts?

We've been keeping track of it at my work place. Out of 47 people, 40 are fully vaccinated, and 4 are partially vaccinated. I understand the need for privacy, but in order to have safe operation, we decided to keep track of it and ask employees.

Those 3 that don't want it, we are not forcing them to get it. All we can do is encourage it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:46:35 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 05, 2021, 01:28:57 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:26:53 PM

I'm against having to prove vaccination status for anything. Particularly a private business. They simply have no right to ask if I've received a medical treatment, just like they have no right to ask if I have a communicable disease. It is simply none of their business what is going on inside my body.

But it is when we are talking about a contagious disease that goes beyond yourself.  Hence why this has been and will continue to happen.

We can disagree. You think it's their business, I don't. I think they have the right to know the information that I openly advertise through my appearance and actions. They can ask me to wear a mask, or kick me out if I'm visibly sick or not honoring distancing rules. Anything happening inside my body is not their business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 05, 2021, 02:07:01 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:26:53 PM

I'm against having to prove vaccination status for anything. Particularly a private business. They simply have no right to ask if I've received a medical treatment, just like they have no right to ask if I have a communicable disease. It is simply none of their business what is going on inside my body.

You're not wrong.

However, they also have an obligation to provide a safe workplace.  Which issue prevails when they are at odds with one another?

Quote from: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:46:35 PM

Anything happening inside my body is not their business.

Perhaps, but anything happening in their workplace that might endanger their employees most certainly is their business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 05, 2021, 02:12:01 PM

Right now, when an employee has symptoms, they have to get a covid test.  They have to show us the test results.  After that, then a date is set for them to come back by our safety manager.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 02:22:50 PM

I personally think the right to privacy trump's the right to providing a safe workplace, but you can think otherwise. The danger of communicable disease did not start nor will it end with Covid. It is always a risk and we've never felt the need to demand private information from people before, though I admit the risk is higher now. I'd concede to legislation that gave businesses the right to request your vaccination status or confirm a negative test result for a limited period of time. But I think it should be specific legislation, not executive order, and not the free for all that seems to be coming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 05, 2021, 02:28:58 PM

Quote from: KevShmev on May 05, 2021, 12:30:41 PM

Can't recall if this has been discussed, but this question came up this morning:

Should an employer be allowed to ask an employee if they have been vaccinated for COVID?

My knee jerk answer was "yes," but I thought about it a little more and now I am not so sure. 

Thoughts?

It's against HIPPA regulations.  Whether they "should" be allowed is a philosophical question.  Whether they "are" allowed is a legal one and the answer is an unqualified no. 


Although there are exceptions to the law such as hospitals and nursing homes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2021, 02:34:12 PM

Actually, no.  For the most part, HIPAA does not apply to private employers at all unless those employers are health care providers or insurers (or those that provide specific types of services to those specific types of entities).  People throw "HIPAA" around all the time when medical issues come up.  But it rarely applies.  Common mistake.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 05, 2021, 02:40:29 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 05, 2021, 02:34:12 PM

Actually, no.  For the most part, HIPAA does not apply to private employers at all unless those employers are health care providers or insurers (or those that provide specific types of services to those specific types of entities).  People throw "HIPAA" around all the time when medical issues come up.  But it rarely applies.  Common mistake.

Damnit, you're right about that.  I keep forgetting it's only a big deal where I work because of our relationship with Children's Hospital and Mass Eye and Ear.


Basically, we have HIPPA-regulated data stored here.  No one can even come in my office unless they're on a pre-approved list.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 05, 2021, 02:55:11 PM

That makes perfect sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 03:11:47 PM

My understanding is that workplaces can require you to be vaccinated, but they must honor the exemptions your state allows, which may be medical, religious, and/or ethical depending on the state. If you claim one of those exemptions they can require you to wear a mask or something like that to mitigate the risk. This is based on a quick Google search I did a while back, so I'm not 100% positive that it's correct.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 05, 2021, 03:19:19 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:46:35 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 05, 2021, 01:28:57 PM

Quote from: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 01:26:53 PM

I'm against having to prove vaccination status for anything. Particularly a private business. They simply have no right to ask if I've received a medical treatment, just like they have no right to ask if I have a communicable disease. It is simply none of their business what is going on inside my body.

But it is when we are talking about a contagious disease that goes beyond yourself.  Hence why this has been and will continue to happen.

We can disagree. You think it's their business, I don't. I think they have the right to know the information that I openly advertise through my appearance and actions. They can ask me to wear a mask, or kick me out if I'm visibly sick or not honoring distancing rules. Anything happening inside my body is not their business.

TBH, I totally over read the "private" part.  I was thinking this was along the public school requirements.  I'm not entirely sure about what a private business can or can't do.  I don't recall needing proof of vaccination for anything besides going to school/colege which for me were public institutions. My job has already stated they will not require vaccinations to return to office.  I think that is possibly why they likely aren't going to have people come back until 2022 and even then, it will be on your own choice.  That may be how they get around the potential grey legal issues.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 05, 2021, 03:44:19 PM

Good posts about the employer/employee thing, peeps. :tup :tup

Still seems tricky to me.  I get personal privacy and all that, but with it being a pandemic, that is a wild card that is usually not part of the deck.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 05, 2021, 06:25:26 PM

My tendency would be to guard employee's personal private medical information but I honestly don't think this was happening before the pandemic.  I get it can differ state to state in the US with regard to laws and the size of the business.  But in my experience, if I'm going to have a medical procedure and I'm going to use paid leave or FMLA I need to disclose a certain amount of this information to my HR department.  When my mother was hospitalized and I requested FMLA I had to have her doctor fill out a form describing what her medical condition was.  I remember thinking that was a huge violation of HER medical privacy but I did it so I could take time off to be with her.  I had no choice.

On the flip side with regard to keeping employees safe from communicable disease - people have come to work sick since time began.  Employers even sometimes pressure employees to work sick.  And yes, we can point out this is a pandemic and Covid is a serious disease.  I won't argue that.  But so is flu.  So is viral pneumonia.  Even something like strep throat or food poisoning can put someone in the hospital and yet people don't think twice about going to work and spreading those diseases to their co-workers.

Maybe that will be another silver lining along with continuing telecommuting - people will actually stay home when they might be contagious.  If they have paid sick time, that is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 05, 2021, 06:35:41 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 05, 2021, 02:28:58 PM

Although there are exceptions to the law such as hospitals and nursing homes.

This would be me. I can be fired for not getting the flu shot. I don't have a choice in these matters. I am an employee for a large health system. Don't want employees making the customers (patients) sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lordxizor on May 05, 2021, 07:11:10 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 05, 2021, 06:25:26 PM

My tendency would be to guard employee's personal private medical information but I honestly don't think this was happening before the pandemic.  I get it can differ state to state in the US with regard to laws and the size of the business.  But in my experience, if I'm going to have a medical procedure and I'm going to use paid leave or FMLA I need to disclose a certain amount of this information to my HR department.  When my mother was hospitalized and I requested FMLA I had to have her doctor fill out a form describing what her medical condition was.  I remember thinking that was a huge violation of HER medical privacy but I did it so I could take time off to be with her.  I had no choice.

On the flip side with regard to keeping employees safe from communicable disease - people have come to work sick since time began.  Employers even sometimes pressure employees to work sick.  And yes, we can point out this is a pandemic and Covid is a serious disease.  I won't argue that.  But so is flu.  So is viral pneumonia.  Even something like strep throat or food poisoning can put someone in the hospital and yet people don't think twice about going to work and spreading those diseases to their co-workers.

Maybe that will be another silver lining along with continuing telecommuting - people will actually stay home when they might be contagious.  If they have paid sick time, that is.

Well said. I agree with all of this. If nothing else I hope that this makes employers, and the government, see the value of paid sick time more than ever. People need to stay home when they're sick and they need to be paid as an incentive to do so!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: orcus116 on May 06, 2021, 05:56:07 AM

My company has paid sick time that acrues per paycheck but the issue is that it's limited and there have been habitual abusers that use it as paid vacation whenever they're not feeling up to coming into work for whatever reason. Some of these same coworkers had come in actually sick, even said they were sick, and when I suggested they go home they would say "I don't have any sick time left" since they used it like extra time off in the past. Our HR department couldn't force someone to go home when visibility sick for fear of discrimination or something however that was all pre COVID so things have changed quite a bit in terms of handling sick employees.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 06, 2021, 07:30:00 AM

I just checked on this and the HR Manager told me right now they cannot find out if any specific employee has been vaccinated. The employee would have to offer that information voluntarily.  I asked her if that was because of HIPPA and she said "Yes"


Not the same context as earlier I was still wrong in what I wrote, but this is what I was thinking of, because I asked her this when the vaccines first came out and got the same answer.  Right now ini MA there is no way for your employer to know whether or not you've been vaccinated unless you (the employee) volunteers that information. 


Now I can't say for sure if the employer has the right to compel an employee to produce proof of vaccination, but I know that I cannot walk into one of our biggest customer sites (Children's Hospital in Boston) without proof of both the flu vaccine and Covid Vaccine.  That's been their policy for over 20 years. (the Flu vaccine part)  So I am assuming there must be a carve-out of some kind for people employed in hospitals.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 06, 2021, 07:52:06 AM

Well I am pissed and bummed - they announced on Tuesday that they are recalling all employees to their pre-pandemic locations. Our division reports back on May 17th.

We had been told for over a year what a wonderful job were doing and that in fact we were even more efficient working remotely and that steps were underway to make this permanent or at least some kind of hybrid workforce. They are calling it a "reset" and they are still moving forward with an evaluation of WFH but I don't believe it. Their credibility has been shot and they know it.

Oh well, at least I have until the 17th. Other divisions have to show up this coming Monday.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ReaperKK on May 06, 2021, 07:55:34 AM

Our CEO has been dodging the WFH question during our quarterly meetings. It usually goes like this:

Question: "Will we be able to continue to work from home if we want?"
CEO: "I know you guys can't want to get back to the office that is why we are dedicated in getting you guys back to the office when it's safe"

Our tentative return date is in September and I'm dreading it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2021, 07:56:39 AM

It certainly seems like many are returning to work now, the highways have become filled again here in NJ. 

Oh, and it seems like there's a non stop wave of concert and festival announcements.  This makes me happy.  September is just piling up of concerts right now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 06, 2021, 08:02:19 AM

Yep. We had an all employees meeting last week and the CEO started hinting at our return while not addressing new WFH flexibility in any way. He didn't give us an exact date, but he said it won't be right around the corner. He said "It's not going to be June. It's not going to be July. It'll be around fall time". I'm assuming it's going to be when kids go back to school.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 06, 2021, 08:06:26 AM

Finally got my first dose (pfizer) this morning.  Canada has chosen to space out the second shot so I’m only getting my next on august 21st.  Hopefully it’ll become more flexible as doses are available and I’ll be to get it sooner.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 06, 2021, 08:06:45 AM

Visitors are not allowed to visit patients in Hospitals if they're sick. And young children are not allowed to visit at all, you have to be at least 14, for the ICU.

There are extremely sick and fragile people in the hospitals and one sickness, even the basic common cold, could potentially end their life.

Patient Rooms have to be sterilized, sanitized and cold as all hell, so Bacteria won't grow and spread.

Because Doctors and Nurses mingle, and also, work with these fragile patients, they're not going to take risks, because their job is to heal the patient so they can at least be able to enjoy their life, or if nothing can be done, keep them comfortable on their death bed.


It's not an easy job, it's mentally stressful, and not one for the weak hearted. It pays good because of these reasons.

This is just the ICU....


It's a lot harder to control bacteria and how people mingle in the actual world where people want to enjoy their life, live and be happy.

This is where the mental health comes into play.

Because our lives are not only about our physical health, but our mental health because both work with each other. Both need to be balanced. When you suffer mentally, you suffer physically, and vice versa.



And form what I am seeing and from what people in the workforce of Big Box stores and Supermarkets, is it's up to their employer. Most won't because they don't want to lose any more employees than they already have lost because of people not wanting to work due to their concern for Covid. Now we have businesses struggling to hire employees and are doing hiring bonuses to find people to hire.

For things to open, you need people to work those jobs, if no one wants to work at these places, these places won't open.

So it's a catch 22, for businesses that need to hire more employees and yet, don't want to discriminate, because not everyone can take the vaccine.

This is where this question comes in....Who's responsibility is it for the health of a person? Is it the business or the person? Who is responsible, if someone gets sick at a business?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 06, 2021, 08:09:38 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 06, 2021, 07:52:06 AM

Well I am pissed and bummed - they announced on Tuesday that they are recalling all employees to their pre-pandemic locations. Our division reports back on May 17th.

We had been told for over a year what a wonderful job were doing and that in fact we were even more efficient working remotely and that steps were underway to make this permanent or at least some kind of hybrid workforce. They are calling it a "reset" and they are still moving forward with an evaluation of WFH but I don't believe it. Their credibility has been shot and they know it.

Oh well, at least I have until the 17th. Other divisions have to show up this coming Monday.

Well, now that's the other parallel of the vaccine requirement to work.

If you don't want to go back and the company forces you, you can just quit. Doesn't the company have that right?


See, all things have opposites and parallels, there isn't just one way to look at things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 06, 2021, 08:13:54 AM

Our company is going to be phasing back in employees to the office in July and August, with a target of everyone back in September.  However, even in September, it will be a flex schedule, with most employees able to work multiple days a week remotely.  Some employees will retain the opportunity to be 100% remote.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 06, 2021, 08:28:25 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 05, 2021, 02:07:01 PM

However, they also have an obligation to provide a safe workplace.  Which issue prevails when they are at odds with one another?

I love that you wrote that.  That's really a fundamental question that is a part of many of the conversations we have here both in this thread, and in P/R generally.    I think most people value the individual right - the right to have an abortion, the right to marry who you want, the right to free speech - but we get in trouble when "individual wants" are miscontrued as "rights" - there is no "right" to be free from harm, for example, nor any right to be free from "offense". That only gets worse when two individuals' rights, whether actual or construed, are in conflict.  (It shouldn't surprise anyone that I'm fairly rigid in my view that one's actual rights always prevail over someone's construed rights.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 06, 2021, 08:52:13 AM

My work is expected to be back to 50% by September. Seems the case with all the tech employees in the area, the coders and such are going to be allowed to stay home, but the more traditional workforce of the tech companies, hr, legal, etc, will be expected back in the office. I'm sure the coders are happier that way anyways, they seem to be skittish at best in the office environment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 06, 2021, 08:54:13 AM

"Coders" are an entirely different breed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2021, 08:56:16 AM

"coders" are basically my entire company  :lol

They've shrunk our office from my understanding, there's definitely going to be people, likely "coders" who will stay at home. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 06, 2021, 09:13:48 AM

We've never had the opportunity to work from Home.  We've had everyone here working every day.  Made all the precautions that more important.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 06, 2021, 09:42:51 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 06, 2021, 08:54:13 AM

"Coders" are an entirely different breed.

Absolutely, especially the high end ones at my place. I contract to the autonomous vehicle section of Lyft, their coders make upwards of half a million a year.

Youd never, ever guess it by seeing them.  :lol

It's a trip actually, cause even though they're at home, the screens are mirrored at their desks, so I can actually see what a lot of them are working on. It's so beyond next level shit I couldn't even begin to comprehend what they're doing, either with the code or with the diagrams that are collecting the car data.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 06, 2021, 09:48:55 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 06, 2021, 09:42:51 AM

I contract to the autonomous vehicle section of Lyft, their coders make upwards of half a million a year.

Youd never, ever guess it by seeing them.  :lol

Well, but in fairness, half a million where you live is like just below minimum wage anywhere else when you factor in cost of living.  :biggrin:

There's a reason we left when we did.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 06, 2021, 09:50:34 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 06, 2021, 09:48:55 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 06, 2021, 09:42:51 AM

I contract to the autonomous vehicle section of Lyft, their coders make upwards of half a million a year.

Youd never, ever guess it by seeing them.  :lol

Well, but in fairness, half a million where you live is like just below minimum wage anywhere else when you factor in cost of living.  :biggrin:

There's a reason we left when we did.

True that  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 06, 2021, 12:10:48 PM

Relevant (and embarrassing) news from the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/06/nhs-covid-jab-booking-site-leaks-peoples-vaccine-status

"NHS Digital is revising its process for booking Covid vaccinations in England after the discovery of a “seriously shocking failure” that leaked medical data from the site.

The website lets users make appointments using their NHS number or, if they do not have it to hand, some basic identity information. But in the process, users’ vaccination status is disclosed, allowing anyone who possesses basic personal details of a friend, colleague or stranger to find out what should be confidential medical information.

Employers would therefore, in theory, be able to trivially find out which of their staff had been vaccinated, for instance, while others may feel under pressure not to get the vaccine for fear of criticism from anti-vaccination friends or colleagues.

The problem comes because of the different responses the vaccination website gives to users based on their vaccination status. For users who have not had any jabs, entering personal details takes them straight through to a standard screening page, while for users who have had their first shot and booked their second, they are presented with a screen asking for their booking reference to continue."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2021, 04:38:14 PM

Work today created a portal where you can log in and voluntarily say if youve been vaccinated.  The reason is to better determine "return to work".  Interesting given the conversation here.  I don't work in the office so I have no reason to let them know, but my boss knows so I'm not sure it matters.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 06, 2021, 06:08:31 PM

I don't really have a problem letting people at work or elsewhere know.  If asked, or I feel like it's relevant or helpful to volunteer it, I'll say so.  But, for reasons discussed above, I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about any sort of mandatory disclosure, or pressure to disclose in order to take advantage of goods/services. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 06, 2021, 06:13:27 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 06, 2021, 06:08:31 PM

I don't really have a problem letting people at work or elsewhere know.  If asked, or I feel like it's relevant or helpful to volunteer it, I'll say so.  But, for reasons discussed above, I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about any sort of mandatory disclosure, or pressure to disclose in order to take advantage of goods/services.

If I were to return to the office, I'd probably submit a "yes" but I don't so I don't feel the need to add to their voluntary database.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 06:53:57 AM

I'm pretty free with the information on my own terms.   I'm not a fan of being required.   

I'm also starting to get a little pissed at things like this (and the entire conversation that follows):
https://twitter.com/johnpavlovitz/status/1390444117981859840?s=20

Just as judgmental, just as biased, just as intolerant as the people he bullies.

I met a friend last night for a day-late Cinco de Mayo drink.  We are both mask-wearers, we are both vaccinated.  My friend - because of the nature of his job - has essentially been unemployed for a year, and is only now just starting to get jobs.   We sat down at the bar - protected on both sides by plexiglass from the parties next to us, and with plexiglass between us and the bartender (who wore a mask).   And at one point he raised his glass and said "Good to see your face without a mask on."     

That bigot (and that's what he is) has no idea what that conversation was really about, he's just interested in serving his agenda and furthering the divisiveness.  The us (we're BETTER than you!) and the (deplorable) them.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:16:53 AM

Wasn't someone here saying VAERS can't be trusted the other day, because they didn't like that I sourced it, and "anyone" can report to it?
Who is going to tamper with a confusing website for the average person? Doctors? Hospital admin?
The government wants the public to distrust the government system that is considered the "gold standard" for reporting adverse affects to vaccines on government websites???
I hate the phrase, but "you can't make this Shite up!"
Those are the worst types of conspiracy theorists... but go ahead, take your covid1984 shot if you're under 50 and healthy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAE7twv?format=jpg&name=medium (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAE7twv?format=jpg&name=medium)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAQm3VQ?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAQm3VQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:20:34 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 06, 2021, 06:13:27 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 06, 2021, 06:08:31 PM

I don't really have a problem letting people at work or elsewhere know.  If asked, or I feel like it's relevant or helpful to volunteer it, I'll say so.  But, for reasons discussed above, I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about any sort of mandatory disclosure, or pressure to disclose in order to take advantage of goods/services.

If I were to return to the office, I'd probably submit a "yes" but I don't so I don't feel the need to add to their voluntary database.

What's the alternative database?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:28:30 AM

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950646?src=soc_lk_share (https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950646?src=soc_lk_share)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 07, 2021, 07:30:50 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:16:53 AM

Wasn't someone here saying VAERS can't be trusted the other day, because they didn't like that I sourced it, and "anyone" can report to it?
Who is going to tamper with a confusing website for the average person? Doctors? Hospital admin?
The government wants the public to distrust the government system that is considered the "gold standard" for reporting adverse affects to vaccines on government websites???
I hate the phrase, but "you can't make this Shite up!"
Those are the worst types of conspiracy theorists... but go ahead, take your covid1984 shot if you're under 50 and healthy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAE7twv?format=jpg&name=medium (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAE7twv?format=jpg&name=medium)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAQm3VQ?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew1CD6CXIAQm3VQ?format=jpg&name=large)

I saw an article that was talking about how a study has been ruined because there is no control group anymore. As mostly all the placebo participants ended up getting a vaccine.

For studies, it's important to have a control group to actually know how effective they actually are. And you learn this by comparing data from the controlled placebo group and the ones whom took the vaccine. Part of being in a study means you have to take part and do your part and be a control placebo. It's what you voluntarily agreed to when you signed up for the study.

Found it...

Quote

Dr. Steven Goodman, a clinical trials specialist at Stanford University, says losing those control groups makes it more difficult to answer some important questions about COVID-19 vaccines.

"We don't know how long protections lasts," he says. "We don't know efficacy against variants — for which we definitely need a good control arm — and we also don't know if there are any differences in any of these parameters by age or race or infirmity."

Scientists may be able to infer some of this, for example if it becomes evident that vaccinated people commonly fall ill after exposure to virus variants. Further safety information is also being collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, as well as the FDA, based on the experience of millions of people who have now taken the shots.

But clinical trials that include a placebo group are the surest and most definitive ways to gather information about vaccine effectiveness. "I think over time we'll get that data," Fierro says, even without a placebo group.

Scientists have already collected data from the vaccine studies that could help them identify how individuals' immune systems have responded to vaccination. That could eventually let them identify immune system features, called correlates of protection, that could strongly indicate vaccine effectiveness.

But because the best evidence comes from a controlled study, Goodman is thinking about how those could be conducted ethically, now that there are effective vaccines available.

One option is to identify people who are in groups that are not currently eligible for a vaccine, as is happening now with children. Another option is to conduct studies in other parts of the world, where vaccines simply aren't available. But that raises ethical issues, as well: Why not provide those countries vaccine, rather than recruiting them for a study?

"But the fact is we do have an unfair world and there are inequities in global health and financing," Goodman says. So, offering people a chance to participate in a study could be ethical. "The countries themselves may demand it," he says, as they work to understand the risks that virus variants pose to their populations.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/969143015/long-term-studies-of-covid-19-vaccines-hurt-by-placebo-recipients-getting-immuni


Why not just look at the people who are not taking the vaccine because they feel it's an experimental vaccine? If they think it's people taking it are part of an experiment then those that are not taking it could be part of that controlled group.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:33:26 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 06:53:57 AM

I'm also starting to get a little pissed at things like this (and the entire conversation that follows):
https://twitter.com/johnpavlovitz/status/1390444117981859840?s=20

There are bullies from all backgrounds, and of course bullies on the right, but covid1984 has exposed the vast majority of bullying comes from left leaning individuals, especially in public or on social media.

Ironic, since the left used to push anti-bullying-in-school propaganda ten years ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 07:34:22 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:20:34 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 06, 2021, 06:13:27 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 06, 2021, 06:08:31 PM

I don't really have a problem letting people at work or elsewhere know.  If asked, or I feel like it's relevant or helpful to volunteer it, I'll say so.  But, for reasons discussed above, I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about any sort of mandatory disclosure, or pressure to disclose in order to take advantage of goods/services.

If I were to return to the office, I'd probably submit a "yes" but I don't so I don't feel the need to add to their voluntary database.

What's the alternative database?

huh?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:36:49 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 07:34:22 AM

huh?

nter.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qeE_YEkXQ_E/hqdefault.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 07, 2021, 07:59:09 AM

Had my second Pfizer shot yesterday.  It made me tired and my arm is sore today but that's about it on side effects.  So in about 2 weeks I'll be as protected as I'm ever going to be. 


Just glad to have it out of the way now.  We're having a family get together in about a month.  It will be mostly outdoors if the weather cooperates but given that the entire family is now vaccinated we can do it indoors and maskless if the weather is shitty. 


Nice to finally be seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.   I just hope it's not another train  :chill

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2021, 08:56:22 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:33:26 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 06:53:57 AM

I'm also starting to get a little pissed at things like this (and the entire conversation that follows):
https://twitter.com/johnpavlovitz/status/1390444117981859840?s=20

There are bullies from all backgrounds, and of course bullies on the right, but covid1984 has exposed the vast majority of bullying comes from left leaning individuals, especially in public or on social media.

Ironic, since the left used to push anti-bullying-in-school propaganda ten years ago.

On social media, maybe, although "bullying" is a strong word.

I've seen plenty of anti-social behavior IRL from conservatives on various subjects, and COVID in particular.

BTW, "covid1984" is a bit cringey.  You're reaching.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 09:13:32 AM

covid1984 is very cringe

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/07/health/pfizer-biontech-fda-approval-bla-vaccine/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/07/health/pfizer-biontech-fda-approval-bla-vaccine/index.html)

Once FDA gives full approval, what's the new excuse going to be?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 09:16:53 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2021, 08:56:22 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:33:26 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 06:53:57 AM

I'm also starting to get a little pissed at things like this (and the entire conversation that follows):
https://twitter.com/johnpavlovitz/status/1390444117981859840?s=20

There are bullies from all backgrounds, and of course bullies on the right, but covid1984 has exposed the vast majority of bullying comes from left leaning individuals, especially in public or on social media.

Ironic, since the left used to push anti-bullying-in-school propaganda ten years ago.

On social media, maybe, although "bullying" is a strong word.

I've seen plenty of anti-social behavior IRL from conservatives on various subjects, and COVID in particular.

BTW, "covid1984" is a bit cringey.  You're reaching.

I think it's both sides, frankly, depending on the issue, but I don't think "bullying" is too strong a word.  They - the people of EITHER side hoping to make a point - are trying to shame others into taking a position they wouldn't, of their own volition, take.   I noted meeting my friend for a drink.  I had my phone, my mask, and my vaccine card with me when I sat down.  The bartender laughed at me, because I held up both and said "you tell me what I need".  She then said, "you need a DRINK!", which I happily took.  But the point was, at that moment, I wasn't making decisions based on hard facts on viral transmission, I was making decisions based on what was the most SOCIALLY acceptable in that moment.  Frankly, I just wanted to relax and enjoy talking with my friend, who I had seen twice in 14 months.  Wrap me in bubble wrap if that's what it takes, but DON'T JUDGE ME.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2021, 09:41:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 09:16:53 AM

I don't think "bullying" is too strong a word.  They - the people of EITHER side hoping to make a point - are trying to shame others into taking a position they wouldn't, of their own volition, take. 

Yes, but that's not what BULLIES do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 09:52:54 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2021, 09:41:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 09:16:53 AM

I don't think "bullying" is too strong a word.  They - the people of EITHER side hoping to make a point - are trying to shame others into taking a position they wouldn't, of their own volition, take. 

Yes, but that's not what BULLIES do.

Tell me more?  I kinda think that's exactly what bullies do. The MECHANISM might be different, but whether I'm avoiding being social media pariah, or a wedgie, is the psychological part all that different?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 11:10:48 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 07, 2021, 07:16:53 AM

but go ahead, take your covid1984 shot if you're under 50 and healthy.

I will, in the same way I will continue to wear seatbelts all the times my car isn't in the process of crashing into a tree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2021, 11:14:45 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 09:52:54 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2021, 09:41:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 09:16:53 AM

I don't think "bullying" is too strong a word.  They - the people of EITHER side hoping to make a point - are trying to shame others into taking a position they wouldn't, of their own volition, take. 

Yes, but that's not what BULLIES do.

Tell me more?  I kinda think that's exactly what bullies do. The MECHANISM might be different, but whether I'm avoiding being social media pariah, or a wedgie, is the psychological part all that different?

I'm not sure that bullies are trying to change people's behavior at all.  They are just preying on those they perceive as weak.  If the weak ones changed their behavior, they might no longer be prey.

Just the way I see it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 11:16:36 AM

Indeed. The kids who threw apples at my head on the bus wouldn't stop if I stopped being a nerd.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 12:12:02 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 11:16:36 AM

Indeed. The kids who threw apples at my head on the bus wouldn't stop if I stopped being a nerd.

I THINK I follow where you and Hef are going, but did you do NOTHING to avoid that apple?  That's what I was thinking of.  I'm not sure I'm changing my mind or my being, but certainly I'm doing things to avoid the wrath of the (cyber) bully, as I would have to avoid the (physical) bully. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:26:51 PM

Of course. But generally, if you are being shamed because of a particular behaviour, the shaming stops when the behaviour stops. When you learn to dodge the apples, they just throw more of them. Changing your behaviour is not the end goal. Making you miserable or showing dominance over the victim is. In that respect, I would agree the particular subsection of the online populace who continue to shame once the person has changed/improved their behaviour are guilty of bullying however.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 12:34:21 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:26:51 PM

Of course. But generally, if you are being shamed because of a particular behaviour, the shaming stops when the behaviour stops. When you learn to dodge the apples, they just throw more of them. Changing your behaviour is not the end goal. Making you miserable or showing dominance over the victim is. In that respect, I would agree the particular subsection of the online populace who continue to shame once the person has changed/improved their behaviour are guilty of bullying however.

You swung in a direction I didn't anticipate you going in; I think there is a HUGE aspect of the social media presence that is about making those that don't comply "miserable" and showing - at least moral - dominance.   That's the essence of the "us versus them" culture we live in; the other side - doesn't matter what side you're on, or over what fence you're looking - is a bunch of morally, intellectually and spiritually inferior morons, and a good portion of what I'm calling "bullying" is reinforcing that very notion.

I don't think we even realize it in the moment; I think it's subconscious and subversive.  What is the essence of someone calling me a "bot", as several have on Quora?  It's LITERALLY dehumanizing.  It's literally saying "you can't possibly be a sentient human being with that thought, with that idea, therefore you can only be an algorithm, imperfectly programmed to replicate "humanity"."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:42:45 PM

Don't disagree with any of that. On the other hand, I don't view that guy on twitter as guilty of that. He called out a behaviour he (rightfully) views as hazardous in real life, and then vented about it without naming names.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 07, 2021, 01:15:35 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 12:34:21 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:26:51 PM

Of course. But generally, if you are being shamed because of a particular behaviour, the shaming stops when the behaviour stops. When you learn to dodge the apples, they just throw more of them. Changing your behaviour is not the end goal. Making you miserable or showing dominance over the victim is. In that respect, I would agree the particular subsection of the online populace who continue to shame once the person has changed/improved their behaviour are guilty of bullying however.

You swung in a direction I didn't anticipate you going in; I think there is a HUGE aspect of the social media presence that is about making those that don't comply "miserable" and showing - at least moral - dominance.   That's the essence of the "us versus them" culture we live in; the other side - doesn't matter what side you're on, or over what fence you're looking - is a bunch of morally, intellectually and spiritually inferior morons, and a good portion of what I'm calling "bullying" is reinforcing that very notion.

I don't think we even realize it in the moment; I think it's subconscious and subversive.  What is the essence of someone calling me a "bot", as several have on Quora?  It's LITERALLY dehumanizing.  It's literally saying "you can't possibly be a sentient human being with that thought, with that idea, therefore you can only be an algorithm, imperfectly programmed to replicate "humanity"."

That mindset, is exactly how people viewed the slaves, in what those slave owners termed "Civilized". It's amazing looking at that term and how that is defined throughout history.

What and whom gave those certain humans the right to consider and determine another human being civilized, under their own definition of that term?

That's where I think it lies, and it's a mindset.

This mindset of "Us and Them", "Savage and Civilized", "Human and Bot", "Unvaccinated and Vaccinated"

And this mindset does nothing to help with unity, and only helps in dividing humans into a "Me Vs. You" mentality and society.

This is where I would also ask people, why was the reason for taking the vaccine? Because I guarantee you, if people were honest, not everyone will say, because I care about someone. Some would say, because of their job, because of the pressure, and even because of the culture and mob of people going after you if you don't abide, because it's happened to people whom lost their jobs and reputations for not abiding to the demands of the mob. This would be interesting to find out.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 01:19:55 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:42:45 PM

Don't disagree with any of that. On the other hand, I don't view that guy on twitter as guilty of that. He called out a behaviour he (rightfully) views as hazardous in real life, and then vented about it without naming names.

Except like the bully, he didn't bother to make any effort to understand that behavior before calling it out (and I object to your "rightfully"; we do not know that).   He has no idea if those people are vaccinated, if those people know each other, if those people are expressing a political statement, a social statement, or neither, and yet he's rendering judgment. They are BAD, simply because he said so.  By his reckoning, if he saw me last night, he would have rendered me "bad" without any understanding of my position, even though I followed every relevant guideline to the letter.  There's nothing "rightful" about that, and I shouldn't bear that burden, anymore than you should bear the burden of being knocked in the noggin' with an apple because you like math.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 07, 2021, 01:53:34 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 01:19:55 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:42:45 PM

Don't disagree with any of that. On the other hand, I don't view that guy on twitter as guilty of that. He called out a behaviour he (rightfully) views as hazardous in real life, and then vented about it without naming names.

Except like the bully, he didn't bother to make any effort to understand that behavior before calling it out (and I object to your "rightfully"; we do not know that).   He has no idea if those people are vaccinated, if those people know each other, if those people are expressing a political statement, a social statement, or neither, and yet he's rendering judgment. They are BAD, simply because he said so.  By his reckoning, if he saw me last night, he would have rendered me "bad" without any understanding of my position, even though I followed every relevant guideline to the letter.  There's nothing "rightful" about that, and I shouldn't bear that burden, anymore than you should bear the burden of being knocked in the noggin' with an apple because you like math.

You getting an apple to noggin for liking Math cause Math is Racist.  :biggrin:

Unlike Newton getting an apple to the noggin because of Nature showing Newton and literally knocking on his head about Gravity.  :lol


But yeah, when not in businesses that require masks. You have no way of knowing who isn't vaccinated and who is. Just as you don't know who also has a different sickness that could just as easily get you sick. We've been told, even before Covid, to stay home when sick.

When you stay home, the chances of that passing onto someone lowers. And how did people stay home, the business of the world shut down, but life did not stop, and never does stop. The places where people mingle and gather shut down, but that didn't stop people from gathering outside in groups.

I do hope the businesses, and people in general are more aware now, that if you don't feel good, stay home and get better. The workplace can handle not needing you to work. Unless that business relies on you that much, if so, then that business should realize and learn not to rely on one person for anything.

Peoples mentality is just as important as a person's physical health. And this bullying and mob mentality, has affect on people's mental health. Which some people couldn't handle which led to the rise in suicides in this pandemic....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 01:19:55 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:42:45 PM

Don't disagree with any of that. On the other hand, I don't view that guy on twitter as guilty of that. He called out a behaviour he (rightfully) views as hazardous in real life, and then vented about it without naming names.

Except like the bully, he didn't bother to make any effort to understand that behavior before calling it out (and I object to your "rightfully"; we do not know that).   He has no idea if those people are vaccinated, if those people know each other, if those people are expressing a political statement, a social statement, or neither, and yet he's rendering judgment.

Yeah. Because none of those things would excuse not wearing a mask at this moment in time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:31:18 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 01:19:55 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:42:45 PM

Don't disagree with any of that. On the other hand, I don't view that guy on twitter as guilty of that. He called out a behaviour he (rightfully) views as hazardous in real life, and then vented about it without naming names.

Except like the bully, he didn't bother to make any effort to understand that behavior before calling it out (and I object to your "rightfully"; we do not know that).   He has no idea if those people are vaccinated, if those people know each other, if those people are expressing a political statement, a social statement, or neither, and yet he's rendering judgment.

Yeah. Because none of those things would excuse not wearing a mask at this moment in time.

Really though?  Again, what if they were fully vaccinated?  I often pull off my mask as I'm leaving a store because CDC says outside mask wearing isn't necessary unless in a crowd.  I am fully vaccinated and do not worry about unvaccinated people around me anymore.  I feel the 0.0005% chance I get Covid now is as low of a risk as I can get and I'm living my life accordingly just like with other things I take small risks on day to day.  Like driving.  Like eating BBQ food.  Like taking Tylenol for my headache.

Look, as more and more people get vaccinated and restrictions ease and lift, people are going to start making choices for themselves about risks.  Those choices may or may not jibe with yours.  As long as they are not violating the policy of the store/business, then who are we to judge?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:54 PM

When I was in NYC a few nights ago, I saw quite a bit of people walking around without masks.  As a vaccinated person, it didn't bother me one bit.  For one, outside, and two, I have protection.  No reason to worry at all IMO.  However, I kept mine on even though I felt a bit tempted to just take it off.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:51:57 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:54 PM

When I was in NYC a few nights ago, I saw quite a bit of people walking around without masks.  As a vaccinated person, it didn't bother me one bit.  For one, outside, and two, I have protection.  No reason to worry at all IMO.  However, I kept mine on even though I felt a bit tempted to just take it off.

That's great to hear that people are feeling more comfortable maskless outside.  I will NEVER judge anyone if they choose to continue to wear a mask though.  I've heard from friends who have seasonal allergies that mask wearing has helped them.  Also, I don't know if someone opting to wear a mask has symptoms of a cold and is doing it to protect others.  Or if someone is immunocompromised and just feels safer.  I think a mixture of mask wearing and non mask wearing is going to be the new normal.

I hope the use of masks as a political symbol goes away quickly though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:31:18 PM

Really though?  Again, what if they were fully vaccinated?  I often pull off my mask as I'm leaving a store because CDC says outside mask wearing isn't necessary unless in a crowd.  I am fully vaccinated and do not worry about unvaccinated people around me anymore.  I feel the 0.0005% chance I get Covid now is as low of a risk as I can get and I'm living my life accordingly just like with other things I take small risks on day to day.  Like driving.  Like eating BBQ food.  Like taking Tylenol for my headache.

Look, as more and more people get vaccinated and restrictions ease and lift, people are going to start making choices for themselves about risks.  Those choices may or may not jibe with yours.  As long as they are not violating the policy of the store/business, then who are we to judge?

1. The efficacy rates are not 100% so even people who have received full vaccine doses can be potential carriers and spread it to other people.
2. The primary purpose of a mask is to protect other people. Not you. Masks limit how many microdroplets YOU spread in a large area.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:56:08 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:31:18 PM

Really though?  Again, what if they were fully vaccinated?  I often pull off my mask as I'm leaving a store because CDC says outside mask wearing isn't necessary unless in a crowd.  I am fully vaccinated and do not worry about unvaccinated people around me anymore.  I feel the 0.0005% chance I get Covid now is as low of a risk as I can get and I'm living my life accordingly just like with other things I take small risks on day to day.  Like driving.  Like eating BBQ food.  Like taking Tylenol for my headache.

Look, as more and more people get vaccinated and restrictions ease and lift, people are going to start making choices for themselves about risks.  Those choices may or may not jibe with yours.  As long as they are not violating the policy of the store/business, then who are we to judge?

1. The efficacy rates are not 100% so even people who have received full vaccine doses can be potential carriers and spread it to other people.
2. The primary purpose of a mask is to protect other people. Not you. Masks limit how many microdroplets YOU spread in a large area.

We will never have 100% efficacy rates of any vaccine.

I assume you have seen these studies on the extremely low likelihood that a fully vaccinated person transmits Covid?

(https://i.imgur.com/DrjXont.png)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 07, 2021, 02:59:42 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:31:18 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 07, 2021, 01:19:55 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 12:42:45 PM

Don't disagree with any of that. On the other hand, I don't view that guy on twitter as guilty of that. He called out a behaviour he (rightfully) views as hazardous in real life, and then vented about it without naming names.

Except like the bully, he didn't bother to make any effort to understand that behavior before calling it out (and I object to your "rightfully"; we do not know that).   He has no idea if those people are vaccinated, if those people know each other, if those people are expressing a political statement, a social statement, or neither, and yet he's rendering judgment.

Yeah. Because none of those things would excuse not wearing a mask at this moment in time.

Really though?  Again, what if they were fully vaccinated?  I often pull off my mask as I'm leaving a store because CDC says outside mask wearing isn't necessary unless in a crowd.  I am fully vaccinated and do not worry about unvaccinated people around me anymore.  I feel the 0.0005% chance I get Covid now is as low of a risk as I can get and I'm living my life accordingly just like with other things I take small risks on day to day.  Like driving.  Like eating BBQ food.  Like taking Tylenol for my headache.

Look, as more and more people get vaccinated and restrictions ease and lift, people are going to start making choices for themselves about risks.  Those choices may or may not jibe with yours.  As long as they are not violating the policy of the store/business, then who are we to judge?

And also, some of these business don't care, and will not ask anyone to wear one if they decide not to. Nor will they demand another not to wear a mask.

My choice is to not enter that business if they demand me to either wear or not wear one. As crazy as it is, some are actually enacting policies where they enforce people not to wear one, which they can, but that is that business decision and choice to risk their business being shut down by the state emergency orders. Then, the question becomes, where does the emergency orders start to not be an emergency anymore, where these orders will have no effect at all? And then people are not required to mask, and things can be opened fully again...

Where is that threshold of risk at where it's "safe" and is higher than the many other risks involved with dying? Don't Vaccines lower that risk for an individual, and shouldn't that be all that matters, as long as grandma is vaccinated and her risk is low and yours as well, shouldn't that be all that one should be concerned about?

So if Grandma and your risk is low, why should you be concerned about a non-vaccinated person getting the illness?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 07, 2021, 03:02:20 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:51:57 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:54 PM

When I was in NYC a few nights ago, I saw quite a bit of people walking around without masks.  As a vaccinated person, it didn't bother me one bit.  For one, outside, and two, I have protection.  No reason to worry at all IMO.  However, I kept mine on even though I felt a bit tempted to just take it off.

  I think a mixture of mask wearing and non mask wearing is going to be the new normal.

Agreed.  It's already normal in many Eastern cultures/nations.  I don't mind the idea of it coming to the West.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 03:02:49 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

1. The efficacy rates are not 100% so even people who have received full vaccine doses can be potential carriers and spread it to other people.

While possible, it's not a very high percentage.  If you spread it to someone not vaccinated, that is on them at this point IMO.  At least here in the US where there's now more supply than demand.  Anyone can get a vaccine right now so I'm not terribly worried about spreading it.  It's that persons choice to take the risk at this point.  I probably should also state, this is in flux as it takes time to be fully vaxxed so really, in about 4 weeks from now, this truly is the case.

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

2. The primary purpose of a mask is to protect other people. Not you. Masks limit how many microdroplets YOU spread in a large area.

See above.  I shouldn't be limited to protect others who chose not to product themselves at some point.

Ninja'd by Harmony, but I think it's important to note that we need to move on once the vaccine has been readily available to everyone minus the young children who mostly aren't affected at all (ages 12-16 should be approved soon for vaccination).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 03:04:02 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:56:08 PM

We will never have 100% efficacy rates of any vaccine.

Correct. Which is why continued mask use in addition to vaccination is more effective than vaccination alone in reducing transmission rates and the total number of cases in the wild.

Quote

I assume you have seen these studies on the extremely low likelihood that a fully vaccinated person transmits Covid?

(https://i.imgur.com/DrjXont.png)

Yes. And while a 3/4 to 19/20 reduction is great, the remainder is not negligible. Those remaining people would be far less likely to be spreading it if they continue to wear masks.

Quote from: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 03:02:49 PM

While possible, it's not a very high percentage.  If you spread it to someone not vaccinated, that is on them at this point IMO.

Bold assumption.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 07, 2021, 03:07:25 PM

I was talking with a co-worker about this just a bit ago, about wearing masks.  Like me, he is also vaccinated, and our boss has said that those of us who have been vaccinated don't have to be as vigilante about wearing masks around the office, but we both agreed that we both still will just as a courtesy. It's not like I have to wear it when working at my desk, and I can deal with it when walking to the printer, or to my car, or the men's room, or whatever.  On the minor inconvenience scale of 1-10, it''s like a 1.3. No big deal.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 07, 2021, 03:09:53 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:51:57 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:54 PM

When I was in NYC a few nights ago, I saw quite a bit of people walking around without masks.  As a vaccinated person, it didn't bother me one bit.  For one, outside, and two, I have protection.  No reason to worry at all IMO.  However, I kept mine on even though I felt a bit tempted to just take it off.

That's great to hear that people are feeling more comfortable maskless outside.  I will NEVER judge anyone if they choose to continue to wear a mask though.  I've heard from friends who have seasonal allergies that mask wearing has helped them.  Also, I don't know if someone opting to wear a mask has symptoms of a cold and is doing it to protect others.  Or if someone is immunocompromised and just feels safer.  I think a mixture of mask wearing and non mask wearing is going to be the new normal.

I hope the use of masks as a political symbol goes away quickly though.

Yeah, I can see this, when the orders are not enacted anymore, I am sure there will be people whom do see benefits from wearing a mask in public. I myself won't shame them, because in the end, that is their decision and not mine to make.

Hell, Its not my decision whether people want to wear the things they do into a Wal-Mart, as you see when looking up "People of Wal-Mart".

Which in the end, once the risk lowers, is what people will end up doing. Some will take time to ease back into living life, while some that enjoy it will stay and continue doing what we are already doing, and others will start to take extremely high risks on stuff that they weren't able to do because of it being shut down, stuff that is now at a higher percentage risk than the covid sickness.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 03:13:07 PM

Earlier in the thread I mentioned Dr. Monica Gandhi as someone to follow on various social media platforms.  She is an infectious disease physician who literally wrote many papers in favor of mask wearing very early in the pandemic.  Once again, she changed MANY minds - including those of fellow physicians - in FAVOR of mask wearing based on the amount of data and research she did.

I stand by what I've stated in this thread about masking.  And I urge people to check into her continued research and data on this topic.  It really speaks for itself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 03:16:59 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 03:04:02 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 07, 2021, 03:02:49 PM

While possible, it's not a very high percentage.  If you spread it to someone not vaccinated, that is on them at this point IMO.

Bold assumption.

THe amount of people with medical conditions preventing them from being vaccinated is not a high % vs the people choosing not to get vaxxed.  I would feel bad for spreading it to someone who legit can't get vaccinated.  So there is a caveat, but that's also a good reason why those who aren't vaccinated should be vaccinated to help those who seriously cannot.  But also, spreading it as a vaccinated person is not very likely so I will mostly stick to my comment.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 07, 2021, 03:18:26 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 03:13:07 PM

Earlier in the thread I mentioned Dr. Monica Gandhi as someone to follow on various social media platforms.  She is an infectious disease physician who literally wrote many papers in favor of mask wearing very early in the pandemic.  Once again, she changed MANY minds - including those of fellow physicians - in FAVOR of mask wearing based on the amount of data and research she did.

I stand by what I've stated in this thread about masking.  And I urge people to check into her continued research and data on this topic.  It really speaks for itself.

Yup, I always masked up and still do when I go places, only because it is required of me, and once that risk is low and people start to feel more safer themselves, then the requirements should go and it should be left up that person whether to take that risk of getting the sickness.

This then brings me to ask, What is it that is affecting the air we breathe enough for us humans to have to wear a mask in order to be able to live and be healthy? And shouldn't this be the major issue and problem to consider now that this disease is passing. So we could prevent more sickness and worse diseases from killing us, what could we humans do ourselves to not die from these sicknesses and diseases?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 08, 2021, 05:28:54 AM

At a minimum, I'll likely continue wearing a mask in public until daily case counts rates are CONSISTENTLY in the low double digits (or single digits) in my region for an extended period of time.  And/or when the WHO un-declares it a global pandemic.  And/or a couple months after 70% of Canadians are fully vaccinated.  My guess is sometime next spring is the earliest I'll be comfortable NOT wearing a mask indoors in public settings - so, another year.

I'm fine with that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 08, 2021, 08:02:24 AM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:31:18 PM

Really though?  Again, what if they were fully vaccinated?  I often pull off my mask as I'm leaving a store because CDC says outside mask wearing isn't necessary unless in a crowd.  I am fully vaccinated and do not worry about unvaccinated people around me anymore.  I feel the 0.0005% chance I get Covid now is as low of a risk as I can get and I'm living my life accordingly just like with other things I take small risks on day to day.  Like driving.  Like eating BBQ food.  Like taking Tylenol for my headache.

Look, as more and more people get vaccinated and restrictions ease and lift, people are going to start making choices for themselves about risks.  Those choices may or may not jibe with yours.  As long as they are not violating the policy of the store/business, then who are we to judge?

1. The efficacy rates are not 100% so even people who have received full vaccine doses can be potential carriers and spread it to other people.
2. The primary purpose of a mask is to protect other people. Not you. Masks limit how many microdroplets YOU spread in a large area.

The CDC revised their guidelines many months ago to say that the masks protect you from the virus as well as you protecting others. I never really bought into the argument that you are wearing a mask to protect others because if you watch an HGTV show and they wear masks to protect themselves from demolition and toxic fumes from paint remover etc....They certainly are not wearing a mask to protect the drywall.

As far as wearing masks, I will definitely wear one during flu season when going to the doctor or knowing that I will be in some sort of waiting room.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 08, 2021, 08:26:56 AM

Jingle you bring up a very good point that one should be paying attention to the amount of spread in one's local area as another parameter to consider when making risk/benefit choices for yourself and others.  For if cases are low, hospitalizations are low, and deaths are low then the relaxation of restrictions makes more sense than in areas where those things are higher and community spread would also assumed to be higher.  Looking to Israel and the UK is very hopeful because of their excellent vaccinated numbers.  Looking to India and Brazil, not so much.

hunnus the point you make about masks protecting the wearer is also something I learned from Dr. Gandhi.  There is a term used in medicine called viral load.  Dr. Gandhi hypothesized that wearing the mask can reduce the viral load the wearer inhales and thus could feasibly reduce the severity of the disease.  Less inoculum = less viral load = less likely one could become ill or less severity of illness if one did.  I've also seen discussion that the warmth and humidity while wearing the face covering could serve to diminish the inoculum as well, leading to less viral load.  But as far as I know, these hypothesis are just that and not established fact.  I think what makes drawing conclusions about masks difficult is the variation of masks people are wearing and the variation of the environmental conditions around them.  Florida is going to have more heat and humidity in general than Minnesota, for example.  Also I'm not sure I've seen hard research on the level of viral load one needs to contract/spread disease likely because there is a degree of individuality to that.  Genetics?  Underlying comorbidity?  Symptoms, e.g., coughing/sneezing would likely suggest higher rates of spread logically but how would that compare to fever without cough?  Or headache without congestion?  There are just so many variables that can factor into how these things are studied.  They'll probably have it good and figured out about the time the pandemic is over.  :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 08, 2021, 09:09:47 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 08, 2021, 08:02:24 AM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:31:18 PM

Really though?  Again, what if they were fully vaccinated?  I often pull off my mask as I'm leaving a store because CDC says outside mask wearing isn't necessary unless in a crowd.  I am fully vaccinated and do not worry about unvaccinated people around me anymore.  I feel the 0.0005% chance I get Covid now is as low of a risk as I can get and I'm living my life accordingly just like with other things I take small risks on day to day.  Like driving.  Like eating BBQ food.  Like taking Tylenol for my headache.

Look, as more and more people get vaccinated and restrictions ease and lift, people are going to start making choices for themselves about risks.  Those choices may or may not jibe with yours.  As long as they are not violating the policy of the store/business, then who are we to judge?

1. The efficacy rates are not 100% so even people who have received full vaccine doses can be potential carriers and spread it to other people.
2. The primary purpose of a mask is to protect other people. Not you. Masks limit how many microdroplets YOU spread in a large area.

The CDC revised their guidelines many months ago to say that the masks protect you from the virus as well as you protecting others. I never really bought into the argument that you are wearing a mask to protect others because if you watch an HGTV show and they wear masks to protect themselves from demolition and toxic fumes from paint remover etc....They certainly are not wearing a mask to protect the drywall.

That's a different kind of mask for a different kind of purpose. In that case, it's a filter mask specifically to prevent smoke, fumes and other particulates from getting through and into your lungs.

You are actually correct that masks provide some virus protection for the wearer. Medical-grade masks obviously provide a lot of protection but most of us don't have those for everyday use. But even normal coverings provide some protection and reduce the chance of infection. But viruses are much smaller than smoke and fumes, and basic face coverings only provide a bit of protection - some of the virus can still get through if it lands on it.

Whereas basic coverings make a significant difference to transmitting the virus outwards, because it stops it from escaping away from you when breathing, coughing, etc.

So yes, they do provide some protection, but XJ is right that the primary purpose/benefit is to stop transmission to other people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 08, 2021, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 08, 2021, 05:28:54 AM

At a minimum, I'll likely continue wearing a mask in public until daily case counts rates are CONSISTENTLY in the low double digits (or single digits) in my region for an extended period of time.  And/or when the WHO un-declares it a global pandemic.  And/or a couple months after 70% of Canadians are fully vaccinated.  My guess is sometime next spring is the earliest I'll be comfortable NOT wearing a mask indoors in public settings - so, another year.

I'm fine with that.

Chad, you’re playing it safe so you’ll never be wrong, but WOW!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 08, 2021, 09:32:24 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 08, 2021, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 08, 2021, 05:28:54 AM

At a minimum, I'll likely continue wearing a mask in public until daily case counts rates are CONSISTENTLY in the low double digits (or single digits) in my region for an extended period of time.  And/or when the WHO un-declares it a global pandemic.  And/or a couple months after 70% of Canadians are fully vaccinated.  My guess is sometime next spring is the earliest I'll be comfortable NOT wearing a mask indoors in public settings - so, another year.

I'm fine with that.

Chad, you’re playing it safe so you’ll never be wrong, but WOW!

it's most likely because I also live in canada, and Quebec is in only slightly better shape than Ontario(and I'm not even 100% sure about that), that I don't find anything remotely surprising or unusual about Jingle's thoughts on this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 08, 2021, 09:33:15 AM

Then you have the people I saw yesterday. Protesting on a street corner in the Downtown area of the college town just north of me.

Signs that read:

'End the mask mandate'
'My face. My decision'
'Show me your smile'
'Unmask our children'

If I was at all bold, I would have yelled their way that they needed one more sign:

'Let me give you Covid!'

Whatever. They were all fairly old. I would say 60 and up. Strange sight to see geezers protesting in a college town.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 08, 2021, 12:44:36 PM

We are starting to hear about more incentives for people to get vaccinated.  So I thought I'd put this in as one of them.  If herd immunity is a worthwhile goal - and I think it is - then we need to be open to looking at effectiveness data for all potential incentives.

(https://i.imgur.com/EQPr7Tx.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: DragonAttack on May 08, 2021, 06:34:31 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on May 08, 2021, 09:33:15 AM

Then you have the people I saw yesterday. Protesting on a street corner in the Downtown area of the college town just north of me.

Signs that read:

'End the mask mandate'
'My face. My decision'
'Show me your smile'
'Unmask our children'

If I was at all bold, I would have yelled their way that they needed one more sign:

'Let me give you Covid!'

Whatever. They were all fairly old. I would say 60 and up. Strange sight to see geezers protesting in a college town.

They would also be the first ones picketing City Hall in opposition to a topless beach. :D

EDIT:  The majority of new cases in Maryland is now the 18-49 age range, as well as in fourteen other states.   Six deaths in the last ten days for those in their 20s.  Age restrictions for immunizations have been removed, and more young people are getting their shots.  Of course, many still have the immortality syndrome.  With all the variants that now exist, we're still playing it 'safe', though dining out doesn't have the 'paranoia' factor as before.  We'll get the booster shots when the time comes.  We also expect to be discussing the same bad numbers of deaths and hospitalizations a year or two from now.  The hot spots will be the only thing that changes.
 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 09, 2021, 05:34:47 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 08, 2021, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 08, 2021, 05:28:54 AM

At a minimum, I'll likely continue wearing a mask in public until daily case counts rates are CONSISTENTLY in the low double digits (or single digits) in my region for an extended period of time.  And/or when the WHO un-declares it a global pandemic.  And/or a couple months after 70% of Canadians are fully vaccinated.  My guess is sometime next spring is the earliest I'll be comfortable NOT wearing a mask indoors in public settings - so, another year.

I'm fine with that.

Chad, you’re playing it safe so you’ll never be wrong, but WOW!

À Chacun Son Goût. 

XE gets it.  Look, we (Canada) had a very bad third wave - especially here in Ontario.  Our case counts now seem to be coming down a few weeks into our THIRD stay-at-home order (the execution of which is very loose, tbh).  But a couple weeks ago, we (Ontario) were higher than California.  On a per capita basis, I don't think Schecter was being hyperbolic when he said Alberta is second only to India in the cases.  In Ontario, ICU cases went from the high 200s in Feb to almost 900 at the end of April.  In Ontario (population ~13M) there are less than 400k people fully vaccinated (most are healthcare workers, or LTC residents).  It won't be until the fall (at the earliest) that the province/country might reach the fabled herd immunity - and then we're into the winter months where everyone is back indoors again.  So yeah... I'll likely not have any comfort going back to 'normal' for another year.

Headline from Florida this morning - "Florida reports more than 10,000 COVID-19 variant cases, surge after spring break".

Quote

A total of 753 variant cases from three strains -- the B.1.1.7, the P.1, and the B. 1.3.5.1. -- were reported on March 14, according to variant infection data shared with ABC News. The Florida Department of Health does not disclose variant cases on its public dashboard.

That number swelled to 5,177 cases from five types of variants on April 15. Just two weeks later, the number of variant infections exploded to 9,248 on April 27, according to local ABC affiliate , WFTV.

This is how shit started and hit the fan up here.  90% of cases in Ontario are the B117 variant (UK).  There is a razor thin line between being safe and thinking the worst is over, and having another wave come crashing down.

I hope that the US vaccine rollout will dull the effects and spread of variants, but in the meantime, the situation is different for us up here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 09, 2021, 06:41:00 AM

Sweden, on the other hand has had pretty consistent numbers since December. Alongside pretty shit mask compliance and comparatively toothless lockdowns.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sweden+covid&oq=sweden+covid&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59l2j69i65j69i60l3.3176j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 10, 2021, 07:12:54 AM

The way I understand it with my employer is that they will not mandate proof of vaccination once we all start going back to the office, so we will be wearing masks for the foreseeable future.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 10, 2021, 07:15:32 AM

Yea. I work for a university. They’re not allowed to ask if we’ve been vaccinated or demand we are. But all students need to be.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 10, 2021, 08:11:05 AM

Sundays and even Mondays are very poor reporting days for the numbers, but what I just read is eye opening for how low the numbers are this morning...

Quote

22,200 positives reported yesterday compared to 36,966 week over week. 7-day rolling average is at 40,686

Fatality was 241 compared to 648 yesterday and 328 week over week, 7-day rolling fatality at 662.

Hospitalizations reported 7 day rolling average is 31,992 compared to one week ago 36,108 down 11.2%.

Hospital admissions reported 7 day rolling average is 4,324 compared to one week ago 4,913 down 12.0%.

Without doing research, those could be our lowest daily reported numbers since this started or at least since our lowest point last fall. 

The vaccines work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 10, 2021, 08:23:30 AM

More encouraging news that is still purely anecdotal, but encouraging nonetheless:  At mass vaccine sites in my area, they are still continuing to crank through a LOT of people every day.  It is very easy to get an appointment.  But appointments are largely staying filled to the point where they are still having to turn away walk-ins, and if they have extra unused spots at the end of the day, they seem to be in the single digits (!). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 10, 2021, 09:35:50 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 10, 2021, 08:23:30 AM

More encouraging news that is still purely anecdotal, but encouraging nonetheless:  At mass vaccine sites in my area, they are still continuing to crank through a LOT of people every day.  It is very easy to get an appointment.  But appointments are largely staying filled to the point where they are still having to turn away walk-ins, and if they have extra unused spots at the end of the day, they seem to be in the single digits (!).

Yup. It won't die down until, I'd say, end of the month. When most of the people who wanted to get Vaccinated, have all gotten there 2nd shots.

And that's where the numbers will stop climbing and begin to settle. As mostly all those whom wanted the vaccine, will have gotten it already.

Good to see it's working for those people whom really should get the vaccine. But that is only advice and not a demand for someone to get it. Hence why you need to give authorization, that you agree to take this vaccine that is approved for emergency use and has not been approved by the FDA.

Maybe, just maybe, people are waiting for the vaccines to be approved by the FDA before actually taking it. And not because Trump said not to...Maybe...

This is the only reason why I can see people are calling this an "experimental vaccine", because of the fact they're not FDA approved and were used because of the Emergency Use Authorization.

When there's no emergency, these vaccines can't be used, as there is no emergency anymore. Because they haven't been FDA approved.

Which is why I am wondering what the end goal percentage is? Because there is no way to hit 100% vaccinated. Are these Goal Percentages not including those that medically can't take these vaccines. I know one women whom can't take the flu shot because there is Egg ingredients in those and she is allergic to eggs. Would she be included in flu vaccine percentage rates for herd immunity?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 10, 2021, 09:44:48 AM

They will be FDA approved soon enough as the 6 month waiting period is coming to an end, the EUA isn't going to go away just because cases are going down.  This is the 100% reason cases are going down.

Also, it may just be annecdotal for bosk.  The numbers say vaccines given are going down.  What we are seeing though is people getting the second shot so the weekend numbers were pretty high again as people returned.  I think the shot numbers are going to go down significantly soon.  I know the FDA said Pfizer is safe for pregnant women and children ages 12-15 now, but I'm not sure there's going to be a surge of those people immediately to offset the adults who aren't getting the vaccine.

Also lots of states are telling the fed to ship less because demand is down.  The timing all kind of aligns with what I've been saying, we are approaching the end of demand and we can only cross our fingers that it's good enough to stop the spread.  It seems to be working right now, but I worry come the fall when everything will seemingly be back to normal and we may see the "seasonal" spread become a thing with the amount of people refusing a vaccine. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 10, 2021, 10:12:38 AM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 07, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 07, 2021, 02:31:18 PM

Really though?  Again, what if they were fully vaccinated?  I often pull off my mask as I'm leaving a store because CDC says outside mask wearing isn't necessary unless in a crowd.  I am fully vaccinated and do not worry about unvaccinated people around me anymore.  I feel the 0.0005% chance I get Covid now is as low of a risk as I can get and I'm living my life accordingly just like with other things I take small risks on day to day.  Like driving.  Like eating BBQ food.  Like taking Tylenol for my headache.

Look, as more and more people get vaccinated and restrictions ease and lift, people are going to start making choices for themselves about risks.  Those choices may or may not jibe with yours.  As long as they are not violating the policy of the store/business, then who are we to judge?

1. The efficacy rates are not 100% so even people who have received full vaccine doses can be potential carriers and spread it to other people.
2. The primary purpose of a mask is to protect other people. Not you. Masks limit how many microdroplets YOU spread in a large area.

I am in harmony with Harmony on this point.    You're speaking in absolutes about something that is not.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 10, 2021, 02:59:03 PM

So I guess there is now a shedding conspiracy floating around. How stupid are people?

(https://i.imgur.com/R3dy5G7.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 10, 2021, 03:04:41 PM

There's that school in Florida that is spewing similar nonsense about vaccinated people spreading disease to non vaccinated.  What world do we live in where this is our response to a prove and effective solution to a global pandemic?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 10, 2021, 03:23:14 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on May 10, 2021, 02:59:03 PM

So I guess there is now a shedding conspiracy floating around. How stupid are people?

(https://i.imgur.com/R3dy5G7.jpg)

So is this different than the hair, skin, and nail cells (not to mention the bodily oils) that we shed on a minute-by-minute basis? 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 10, 2021, 04:19:39 PM

No.  But anti-vaxxers have never been known for their common sense, or grasp of junior-high biology for that matter.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on May 10, 2021, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on May 10, 2021, 02:59:03 PM

So I guess there is now a shedding conspiracy floating around. How stupid are people?

The answer is YES!

On a side note, one of my coworkers that I was working with on Friday tested positive for COVID today and he's been sick since Saturday, so this week could get interesting...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 10, 2021, 05:08:55 PM

And as expected from last week, Pfizer has been approved for children aged 12-15

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-authorizes-pfizer-biontech-covid-212439506.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-authorizes-pfizer-biontech-covid-212439506.html)

I can understand the hesitation here from parents much more than the adults hesitating, but this certainly seems extremely safe AND effective. 

And for the EUA folks, Pfizer is likely to get full approval in the coming months. It's already in process.  So the "experimental" BS that is thrown around should soon be an even poorer reason to not get vaccinated. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 10, 2021, 05:32:24 PM

I'm on the fence (so far) of the younger kids getting vaccinated until on a global scale, we get a better handle on hospitalizations/deaths/infections.  I don't fault parents for wanting their kids to get vaccinated at all, but at this point I'd like to see the ramp up in shots going to India, Africa, Brazil, heck even Canada could use a boost.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 10, 2021, 06:28:53 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 10, 2021, 09:44:48 AM

we are approaching the end of demand and we can only cross our fingers that it's good enough to stop the spread. 

Yeah, I think we are.  But I don't think we are as close as some seem to worry that we are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Zydar on May 11, 2021, 03:07:03 AM

I'll be getting my vaccine shot this Thursday. I didn't know if I was eligible yet or not, but since I have high blood pressure (and there is heart conditions in the near family) then I can get the vaccine shot now instead of being in the last prioritized group which I thought I was.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 04:34:46 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 10, 2021, 05:32:24 PM

I'm on the fence (so far) of the younger kids getting vaccinated until on a global scale, we get a better handle on hospitalizations/deaths/infections.  I don't fault parents for wanting their kids to get vaccinated at all, but at this point I'd like to see the ramp up in shots going to India, Africa, Brazil, heck even Canada could use a boost.

We certainly can.  Less than 5% of the population is fully vaccinated; about 40% have had at least 1 shot.  I think we still have a goal of 70% - and believe that we can get there.  I don't think there's the amount of hesitancy/anti-vax up here as there is in the US.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 11, 2021, 06:07:27 AM

The UK's approach seems have to been working well so far (pretty much the only thing we have done well on COVID).

The combination of firstly having a clear prioritisation (mostly age-based, but also people with medical conditions and health and social care workers also quite high up the list) and secondly starting with a focus on first shots to get most of the protection to more priority people as quickly as possible seems to have been very effective.

First shots have slowed down quite a bit now while the focus is on getting second shots administered to everyone within 12 weeks of the first dose. And because it's basically now just age-related prioritisation, I'm still not yet eligible although I should hopefully be in the next group.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 07:30:00 AM

Quote from: ariich on May 11, 2021, 06:07:27 AM

The UK's approach seems have to been working well so far (pretty much the only thing we have done well on COVID).

The combination of firstly having a clear prioritisation (mostly age-based, but also people with medical conditions and health and social care workers also quite high up the list) and secondly starting with a focus on first shots to get most of the protection to more priority people as quickly as possible seems to have been very effective.

First shots have slowed down quite a bit now while the focus is on getting second shots administered to everyone within 12 weeks of the first dose. And because it's basically now just age-related prioritisation, I'm still not yet eligible although I should hopefully be in the next group.

I saw a graphic last night that the disparity between %-of-population with 1st shots, and % fully vaccinated is not terribly wide in the UK, where it's about a 35 basis points gap in Canada.  I don't disagree with the strategy of getting as many first doses in people, but at some point, that 2nd dose is just as (if not more) valuable to some group of the population vs the 1st shot in another group.  Like, do 15-year olds need the first shot, or does a 60 year old grocery store worker or teacher need their second shot?  Canada had approved a FOUR MONTH gap between 1st and 2nd shots - well past the recommendations of the pharmas and WHO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 07:46:13 AM

To compare, here are the US vaccination numbers as of today:

Quote

46.0% of population with 1+ dose (59.3% of the adult population), 34.8% of population fully vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 11, 2021, 08:00:46 AM

I'm really happy with the numbers I've been seeing from the tri-state (CT, NJ and NY). NY for the first time since October reported under 2000 cases (statewide), and we are close to 50% of people with at least 1 shot (over 60% for those 18+).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 08:51:50 AM

We're going to have an issue with the kids, though.   My state has been at or near the top of the vaccination numbers so far, but we're starting to see rumblings that the 12-17 numbers are not going to mirror the adult numbers.  I'm working from memory, so don't quote me exactly, but I understand about 30% of the parents will vaccinate their kids, 20% will not, under any circumstances, and the remaining 50% is split roughly between about 35% at "we'll see as we get more information" and 15% at "only if my school requires it".  Again, the only numbers I'm sure of are the "no freakin' way" (which was actually 19%) and the "if school" which was 15%.

There are already protests in East Hartford (not the good suburb of Hartford) and West Hartford (the good suburb of Hartford) about potentially taking the decision out of parent's hands, and there was a separate protest in East Hartford about mask requirements for kids.

The reality is, though, at least in my state, the risk factor looks to be really, really low for kids.  It's making the decision harder, because the data is more ambiguous, and the "do it because it's the right thing" argument is less persuasive.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 09:09:45 AM

Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 11, 2021, 09:12:05 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 08:51:50 AM

We're going to have an issue with the kids, though.   My state has been at or near the top of the vaccination numbers so far, but we're starting to see rumblings that the 12-17 numbers are not going to mirror the adult numbers.  I'm working from memory, so don't quote me exactly, but I understand about 30% of the parents will vaccinate their kids, 20% will not, under any circumstances, and the remaining 50% is split roughly between about 35% at "we'll see as we get more information" and 15% at "only if my school requires it".  Again, the only numbers I'm sure of are the "no freakin' way" (which was actually 19%) and the "if school" which was 15%.

There are already protests in East Hartford (not the good suburb of Hartford) and West Hartford (the good suburb of Hartford) about potentially taking the decision out of parent's hands, and there was a separate protest in East Hartford about mask requirements for kids.

The reality is, though, at least in my state, the risk factor looks to be really, really low for kids.  It's making the decision harder, because the data is more ambiguous, and the "do it because it's the right thing" argument is less persuasive.

Yeah, Kids and young adults will be a huge part of us reaching that elusive 70%.

I saw that CUNY and SUNY (State and City universities in NY) will require all students to get vaccinated before returning in the Fall. There are some private schools that are taking the same steps. I have a feeling this will be a long summer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 11, 2021, 10:01:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 09:09:45 AM

Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 10:08:35 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 11, 2021, 10:01:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 09:09:45 AM

Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

Of course kids can transmit covid and get sick, but they aren't a big factor in terms of spread which is specifically what I mentioned

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/kids-school-and-covid-19-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-t (https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/kids-school-and-covid-19-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-t)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 11:01:00 AM

There was a 14-year old that passed here in Ontario a couple weeks ago that was just tragic.  Ain't nobody should have to go thru that.  I hope there's a decent amount of adoption for that 12-17 age bracket as well.  FFS, we vaccinate babies for MMR, so "vaccines" aren't the issue.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 11:56:01 AM

Also came in here to post this.  From the sublime, to the ridiculous.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated

No folks, this is not an Onion or HardTimes article.  Reminds me of this meme:

(https://img.ifunny.co/images/f21e7e1ec3667b245fa7038067b0a2c1b74ac67d5d6b8af240e5c543cb95fdbf_1.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 11, 2021, 12:00:55 PM

Didn’t South Park do that? That the 911 conspiracy theory was itself a conspiracy theory by the gov to make itself look more powerful than it could ever actually be?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 11, 2021, 10:01:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 09:09:45 AM

Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

I have been to - and would do it again - but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that many who have reservations about the vaccine have them because of the time factor; to say we've been "vaxxed since late Feb. and ... have had no ill-effects" isn't going to move the needle for them. 

When I got the polio vaccine, it had been in wide distribution for over two decades.   While the autism-vaxx link has been thoroughly debunked in terms of causal relationship, it hasn't been debunked - and cannot be - in terms of potentiality.   In other words, while vaccines haven't been shown to cause autism, there are those that aren't convinced that this (or other) vaccines may not be the cause of something else we haven't isolated as of yet.

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point, as long as they don't prevent me from making the decision for myself.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 12:52:36 PM

I know right, like the potential is there that vaccines may prevent erectile dysfunction. Let’s start spreading that as a potential outcome of vaccines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 11, 2021, 01:03:32 PM

I think I understand why parents have the suspicions about vaccines causing autism. Because your kids are born, and for the first 3-6 months, they're fine. As long as they're drinking, pooping, and sleeping, it's all good, there's nothing to worry about. There aren't that many factors out of the parent's control to make sure this all goes smoothly, and there are very few variables in the routine. Any parents will know that the early months of parenting are a frazzling and sleepless but also kind of predictable and simple time. Only later on are there any real developmental milestones - walking, talking, being able to use a spoon, etc., and of course by that time there are so many more variables in a child's life, the fact they've gotten vaccines more likely being one of the least understood ones by the parents.

Having nothing to blame for something that goes wrong or feels wrong is such a frustrating thing for anyone to go through. There's nothing satisfying about coming to the realization that there's "no reason" why I'm so unhappy, or why I'm so angry all the time, or why there's such great tragedy in the world. Having something to scapegoat is so much better. So when a child starts missing these milestones, who does a parent blame? Not themselves, obviously, so something else. Well, there is likely SOME reason why autism exists, but we just don't understand what it is. That's when maybe those vaccines become incredibly appealing scapegoats.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2021, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point

But why not?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 11, 2021, 01:21:00 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 10:08:35 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 11, 2021, 10:01:52 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 09:09:45 AM

Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

Of course kids can transmit covid and get sick, but they aren't a big factor in terms of spread which is specifically what I mentioned

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/kids-school-and-covid-19-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-t (https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/kids-school-and-covid-19-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-t)

That article you posted was from last November. Considering the dynamic nature of this virus, I would say we are learning more and more everyday, thus the reason for my response.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 01:28:24 PM

Here's one from two weeks ago

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-kids-under-10-unlikely-to-spread-coronavirus-at-school (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-kids-under-10-unlikely-to-spread-coronavirus-at-school)

I'm not trying to argue with you, and I have no children to provide any anecdotal experience like you have, but everything I've read has suggested for some time now that children aren't really the cause of large covid spreads, even in schools.  I'm guessing it's linked to the same reason why they don't seem to struggle with illness when catching the virus.  That doesn't mean they don't get sick or can't die or spread it to someone who may die, it's just not nearly as likely as with adults.  I'm only trying to propose the reasoning why children vaccinating is not nearly as important as getting the adults who chose not to.  There's a impactful difference in spread and illness between children and adults.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I trust the science and FDA that Pfizer is safe for children so I am certainly all for children getting vaccinated, but I want to make sure I understand the concerns and risk/benefit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 11, 2021, 01:32:09 PM

Quote from: Skeever on May 11, 2021, 01:03:32 PM

Having nothing to blame for something that goes wrong or feels wrong is such a frustrating thing for anyone to go through. There's nothing satisfying about coming to the realization that there's "no reason" why I'm so unhappy, or why I'm so angry all the time, or why there's such great tragedy in the world. Having something to scapegoat is so much better. So when a child starts missing these milestones, who does a parent blame? Not themselves, obviously, so something else. Well, there is likely SOME reason why autism exists, but we just don't understand what it is. That's when maybe those vaccines become incredibly appealing scapegoats.

People tend to not want to blame themselves. They rather point the finger and blame the other. It all plays into the entire reaction to the cause, and it's effect is staggering.

You have both sides of the vaccine argument pointing fingers at one another. Not one will point the finger at themselves. One blames the other for spreading sickness, and one blames the other for losing freedoms. Where is the middle ground?

Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. "Someone has to lose, and someone has to win".

When it comes to children. Parents do not want and don't like it when others try and tell them how they should raise their child...

And you won't know and understand how it is raising a child until you have one. Because of the fact you are always with that child. Mothers have a connection with that child for the rest of their lives, and no one should take that away, it's why you get mother's stealing their children back from adoption.

Would you rather Child Protective Services take away their child because you feel the child is unsafe and in harm's way? Without knowing the full facts and understanding of how it is to raise a child, then you should have no say into HOW these parents raise their child. There is no right way to raise a child. There is a right way to raise a child in the mindset of a society, and mold them to fit into the mold of that society.

And who determines whether that Society is right or wrong?


This will and always has been the issue when governments and others try and tell people HOW to raise one's own child.

That's not how our government works. But it is how communistic societies work, as they determine how and what your child will become, and is raised only for that pre-determined purpose.


I understand how much people are suddenly caring about others. But also, don't be intrusive and invading of their personal freedoms. It's not up to you to determine these things for people. Its the premise for tending to your own garden. Yes, that person is doing this, but if it's not affecting you, why bother. If it's nothing you can control, then you control it the best way you can for yourself and your own garden. Cause in the end, you're garden will still be fine and dandy, because you took the precautions and did something about it. While the other doesn't have crops, and has no produce, because they didn't see the clouds forming and the wind blowing and weather indicating an unseasonal winter storm is approaching.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2021, 01:35:32 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 11, 2021, 01:28:24 PM

Here's one from two weeks ago

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-kids-under-10-unlikely-to-spread-coronavirus-at-school (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-kids-under-10-unlikely-to-spread-coronavirus-at-school)

I'm not trying to argue with you, and I have no children to provide any anecdotal experience like you have, but everything I've read has suggested for some time now that children aren't really the cause of large covid spreads, even in schools.  I'm guessing it's linked to the same reason why they don't seem to struggle with illness when catching the virus.  That doesn't mean they don't get sick or can't die or spread it to someone who may die, it's just not nearly as likely as with adults.  I'm only trying to propose the reasoning why children vaccinating is not nearly as important as getting the adults who chose not to.  There's a impactful difference in spread and illness between children and adults.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I trust the science and FDA that Pfizer is safe for children so I am certainly all for children getting vaccinated, but I want to make sure I understand the concerns and risk/benefit.

The concerns for me are that, although most kids that get it don't suffer severe side effects, some of the one that get it turn into what they call "long haulers", who develop long term or chronic issues.  That's awful.  And the testing for the vaccines amongst kids in that age range (12-17) had a 100% effective rate.

So I don't see any rational reasons not to vaccinate kids in that range.  Of course, I see no rational reasons not to vaccinate any adults, either (outside of that hypothetical subset that have medical reasons they shouldn't get vaccinated).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 11, 2021, 02:26:30 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 07:30:00 AM

Quote from: ariich on May 11, 2021, 06:07:27 AM

The UK's approach seems have to been working well so far (pretty much the only thing we have done well on COVID).

The combination of firstly having a clear prioritisation (mostly age-based, but also people with medical conditions and health and social care workers also quite high up the list) and secondly starting with a focus on first shots to get most of the protection to more priority people as quickly as possible seems to have been very effective.

First shots have slowed down quite a bit now while the focus is on getting second shots administered to everyone within 12 weeks of the first dose. And because it's basically now just age-related prioritisation, I'm still not yet eligible although I should hopefully be in the next group.

I saw a graphic last night that the disparity between %-of-population with 1st shots, and % fully vaccinated is not terribly wide in the UK, where it's about a 35 basis points gap in Canada.  I don't disagree with the strategy of getting as many first doses in people, but at some point, that 2nd dose is just as (if not more) valuable to some group of the population vs the 1st shot in another group.  Like, do 15-year olds need the first shot, or does a 60 year old grocery store worker or teacher need their second shot?  Canada had approved a FOUR MONTH gap between 1st and 2nd shots - well past the recommendations of the pharmas and WHO.

Yeah in the UK the second-doses have been catching up, but our rollout started pretty quick and we've had a 12-week strategy between doses (which in the case of the AstraZeneca one, seems to be more effective than the initially-suggested 3-week gap). So back at 1st April, the difference among the adult population was around 50 percentage points (60% of adults first dose, 10% second dose).

I understand your hesitation, but honestly it seems to have worked well. A single dose gives almost as much protection, and lasts for at least six months. And by getting a lot of people mostly protected quickly, it helps reduce transmission (a move towards herd immunity) as well as protecting more individuals.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 03:01:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2021, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point

But why not?

Because we don't know what we don't know.

I worked in the environmental field for a good 12, 15 years.   I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to a client why PCB's, or TCE, or chloroflourocarbons weren't a problem for 50 years... until they were.  Asbestos.  Thalidomide.   These are more obvious examples, and likely, had proper testing been done, there would have been more awareness sooner, but that's not always the case.  Generally, immunization is predicated on the theory that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks from delayed adverse events.   Historically, most adverse effects that we know of from vaccines occur early on in the life of the vaccine.   I understand all that, and I'm willing to take that risk as are millions of other people.   

But as a general proposition, I'm not ready to tell someone else they have to adopt my risk standard.   The reality is, even if the majority of policy makers agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, I'm not going to knock someone for coming up with a different cost/benefit analysis.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 12, 2021, 12:14:53 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 03:01:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2021, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point

But why not?

Because we don't know what we don't know.

I worked in the environmental field for a good 12, 15 years.   I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to a client why PCB's, or TCE, or chloroflourocarbons weren't a problem for 50 years... until they were.  Asbestos.  Thalidomide.   These are more obvious examples, and likely, had proper testing been done, there would have been more awareness sooner, but that's not always the case.  Generally, immunization is predicated on the theory that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks from delayed adverse events.   Historically, most adverse effects that we know of from vaccines occur early on in the life of the vaccine.   I understand all that, and I'm willing to take that risk as are millions of other people.   

But as a general proposition, I'm not ready to tell someone else they have to adopt my risk standard.   The reality is, even if the majority of policy makers agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, I'm not going to knock someone for coming up with a different cost/benefit analysis.

When my friend bought tickets to our local Minor League Baseball game, I looked up their terms and conditions and this is what it says...

Quote

COVID-19 IS AN EXTREMELY CONTAGIOUS DISEASE THAT CAN LEAD TO SEVERE ILLNESS AND DEATH. AN INHERENT RISK OF EXPOSURE TO COVID-19 EXISTS IN ANY PUBLIC PLACE REGARDLESS OF PRECAUTIONS THAT MAY BE TAKEN. HOLDER, ON THEIR BEHALF AND ON BEHALF OF ANY ACCOMPANYING PARTIES (AS DEFINED BELOW), AGREES TO (A) ASSUME ALL RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH COVID-19 AND OTHER COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, AND (B) COMPLY WITH ALL RELATED HEALTH & SAFETY POLICIES OF THE CLUB AND THE HOST VENUE (AS DEFINED BELOW) OWNER/OPERATOR.

Quote

FAN HEALTH PROMISE

Holder acknowledges and understands that, if infected with COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease (as defined at the conclusion of this paragraph), Holder and/or any Accompanying Parties may infect others that they may subsequently come in contact with, even if they are not experiencing or displaying any symptoms of illness, and that the risk of exposure to others remains at all times. Accordingly, Holder agrees that neither Holder nor any Accompanying Party will attend the Event if within fourteen (14) days preceding the Event, they have:

(a) tested positive or presumptively positive for COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease or been identified as a potential carrier of COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease; OR

(b) experienced any symptoms commonly associated with COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease; OR

(c) been in direct contact with or the immediate vicinity of any person who is confirmed or suspected of being infected with COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease.

A “Communicable Disease” as used herein is COVID-19, any strains, variants, or mutations thereof, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, and/or any other communicable and/or infectious diseases, viruses, bacteria or illnesses or the causes thereof.

ASSUMPTION OF RISK RELATED TO COVID-19 AND OTHER COMMUNICABLE DISEASES

Holder, on their behalf and on behalf of any Accompanying Parties, acknowledges and expressly assumes all risks that are in any way related to or arising from being exposed to or contracting COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease in the Host Venue. By using this ticket, Holder is acknowledging and confirming, on behalf of Holder and any Related Parties (as defined at the conclusion of this paragraph) both now and in the future, that Holder understands and expressly assumes the risk that Holder and/or any Accompanying Parties may be exposed to COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease. Holder expressly understands that these risks include contracting COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease and the associated dangers, medical complications and physical and mental injuries, both foreseen and unforeseen, that may result from contracting COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease. Holder further acknowledges and understands, on their own behalf and on behalf of any Accompanying Parties, that any interaction with the general public poses an elevated, inherent risk of being exposed to and contracting Communicable Disease, including, but not limited to, COVID-19, that it cannot be guaranteed that Holder and/or any Accompanying Parties will not be exposed, and that as such, potential exposure to or contraction of COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease are risks inherent in Holder’s decision to use this ticket that cannot be eliminated. “Related Parties” are any Accompanying Parties as well as Holder’s and any Accompanying Parties’ personal representatives, assigns, heirs, next of kin and any other person or entity that may be entitled to make a claim on their behalf.

And all they are doing is asking people to mask up, and Social Distance, which went completely out the door as people lingered in lines to buy food, and enter the Pro Shop. They did have mobile ordering, but one food place wasn't prepared for the amount of orders they'll receive and people whom mobile ordered still had to wait for food.

People were masked up when lingering around and waiting in line, most weren't masked in the seats because of food and drink. It was an open venue, and we also had a fireworks show. First one of the season, and the crowd ended up being the normal size crowd that was already at the venue before Covid happened. They never fully were at max capacity much at all.

While down the street, we were having School Basketball Tournaments, and then across the street, High School Graduation Ceremonies.

It's hard to tell who's risk standards were where. But that didn't matter at all to everyone who attended. All that mattered was finally being able to watch a game of baseball, with company, with people, and watch our team get their asses whooped 15-1. The vibe of that venue was one of no worries, and everyone was there to enjoy the game, no conflict. Just the guys heckling the team, which was hilarious.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 12, 2021, 07:32:26 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 03:01:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2021, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point

But why not?

Because we don't know what we don't know.

Maybe, but we know what THEY don't know.  Which is jack shit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 08:54:04 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 03:01:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2021, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point

But why not?

Because we don't know what we don't know.

I worked in the environmental field for a good 12, 15 years.   I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to a client why PCB's, or TCE, or chloroflourocarbons weren't a problem for 50 years... until they were.  Asbestos.  Thalidomide.   These are more obvious examples, and likely, had proper testing been done, there would have been more awareness sooner, but that's not always the case.  Generally, immunization is predicated on the theory that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks from delayed adverse events.   Historically, most adverse effects that we know of from vaccines occur early on in the life of the vaccine.   I understand all that, and I'm willing to take that risk as are millions of other people.   

But as a general proposition, I'm not ready to tell someone else they have to adopt my risk standard.   The reality is, even if the majority of policy makers agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, I'm not going to knock someone for coming up with a different cost/benefit analysis.

Last I checked, building materials don't go thru the same kind of regulated R&D, clinical trials, reporting, oversight, and approvals that drugs do.  Just sayin.

The part I bolded is a fair one.  On the flipside, I also don't want to have to adopt someone else's risk standard - which is what I will have to do if I'm in a populated area with any unvaccinated people.  For instance, I was watching some sports highlights last night.  I'd say the fans were about 50/50 masked.  No one knows if the unmasked people are vaccinated, or anti-maskers.  So, by default I'm potentially adopting the risk standard of the anti-masker sitting in front of me in the stands who may be spreading a highly contagious disease.  I don't think *that* is any more or less 'fair' than the bolded above.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 12, 2021, 09:11:36 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 08:54:04 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 03:01:11 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2021, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point

But why not?

Because we don't know what we don't know.

I worked in the environmental field for a good 12, 15 years.   I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to a client why PCB's, or TCE, or chloroflourocarbons weren't a problem for 50 years... until they were.  Asbestos.  Thalidomide.   These are more obvious examples, and likely, had proper testing been done, there would have been more awareness sooner, but that's not always the case.  Generally, immunization is predicated on the theory that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks from delayed adverse events.   Historically, most adverse effects that we know of from vaccines occur early on in the life of the vaccine.   I understand all that, and I'm willing to take that risk as are millions of other people.   

But as a general proposition, I'm not ready to tell someone else they have to adopt my risk standard.   The reality is, even if the majority of policy makers agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, I'm not going to knock someone for coming up with a different cost/benefit analysis.

Last I checked, building materials don't go thru the same kind of regulated R&D, clinical trials, reporting, oversight, and approvals that drugs do.  Just sayin.

The part I bolded is a fair one.  On the flipside, I also don't want to have to adopt someone else's risk standard - which is what I will have to do if I'm in a populated area with any unvaccinated people.  For instance, I was watching some sports highlights last night.  I'd say the fans were about 50/50 masked.  No one knows if the unmasked people are vaccinated, or anti-maskers.  So, by default I'm potentially adopting the risk standard of the anti-masker sitting in front of me in the stands who may be spreading a highly contagious disease.  I don't think *that* is any more or less 'fair' than the bolded above.

The Isotopes Stadium Terms and Conditions I posted, state exactly that. So, once you buy that ticket, you assume all risks if you do happen to catch Covid and you assume that it was no one else's fault but yours, as you agreed you assume those risks when you bought the ticket.

So you don't want to be forced into adopting their Risk Standard, then you don't go get to see the Isotopes play Ball.

But no one is preventing you from not going, and no one is preventing people from going to the game.

Because those whom bought tickets have a risk standard where a baseball game, outdoors, is not a high risk threat to them.



Every business should have this in their terms and conditions. Some could even have it on their doors where, once you walk into the building, you are assuming all risks involved with congregating.

I respect your concerns. But not everyone has the same level of concern. And that is their Risk Standard.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 09:38:57 AM

No, what those Ts and Cs are doing is the stadium trying to cover their own asses from a legal perspective.  If I'm vaccinated and masked, and there's a COVID carrying unvax'd non-masker sitting beside me, then the REALITY of the situation is it is more THEIR fault than mine *if* I catch COVID.  I've taken two significant measures to protect myself, but the reality is I'm exposed because of / to THEIR risk standard.  We all know there is no provability in it being this other person that caused me to catch it. But that's not the point being discussed.

In the context of the comment that Stads made, I'm not looking to find fault or blame.  If Bill's stance is that no one should have to adopt someone else's risk standard, that also applies to me, no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 12, 2021, 09:46:32 AM

Two problems I see with that.  First:

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 09:38:57 AM

I've taken two significant measures to protect myself...

Yeah, but if you are truly looking for 100% protection, you failed to take the best, most prophylactic measure:  don't go to the event.  As Ben said, that's on you just as much, if not moreso, than others because that is completely within your control.

Second,

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 09:38:57 AM

I'm vaccinated

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 09:38:57 AM

I'm exposed because of / to THEIR risk standard. 

These two things are nearly mutually exclusive.  By being vaccinated, you have mostly eliminated any risk resulting from anyone else having a different risk standard.  Yes, it isn't 100%.  But it is as close as possible.  And, again, if your personal standard is that almost 100% isn't good enough, then that's fine, but see point #1.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 12, 2021, 09:48:32 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 12, 2021, 09:46:32 AM

the best, most prophylactic measure

Steel Panther's next album

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 12, 2021, 09:53:38 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 12, 2021, 09:48:32 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 12, 2021, 09:46:32 AM

the best, most prophylactic measure

Steel Panther's next album

I'll take "Things that have never been uttered in the same sentence" for 100, Alex Aaron.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 12, 2021, 10:15:53 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 12, 2021, 09:46:32 AM

Second,

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 09:38:57 AM

I'm vaccinated

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 09:38:57 AM

I'm exposed because of / to THEIR risk standard. 

These two things are nearly mutually exclusive.  By being vaccinated, you have mostly eliminated any risk resulting from anyone else having a different risk standard.  Yes, it isn't 100%.  But it is as close as possible.  And, again, if your personal standard is that almost 100% isn't good enough, then that's fine, but see point #1.

I agree with this.  As being fully vaxxed, I don't really care if someone next to me is carrying the virus at this point. Yes, it's not 100% that I won't get sick, but it's effectively 100% that I won't get extremely sick.  This is how we are going to have to live for awhile and it's a risk I am now willing to take.  Can't wait to go to the big beer and music festical in a few weeks, going to be hard to mask when drinking beer around people and I'm not 1 bit worried or scared.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 12, 2021, 10:25:54 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 12, 2021, 09:38:57 AM

In the context of the comment that Stads made, I'm not looking to find fault or blame.  If Bill's stance is that no one should have to adopt someone else's risk standard, that also applies to me, no?

It does, but the devil is in the details.   If you FORCE the other guy to act - however they act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are forcing them to adopt your standard.   If you CHOOSE to act - however you act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are not adopting THEIR standard - they didn't force you to do anything - you are simply enforcing your own standard.  It's a subtle difference, but in the world, which is nothing more than a endless list of competing rights and obligations, that's the line we sort of have to follow (and which we follow every day in countless ways).

One good - though imperfect - example is being offended.   If someone says something and I am offended, I can either trample their rights to free speech, or I can tend my own garden and address my emotions.  I can opt to suppress those emotions, I can walk away so I don't hear what they are saying, or anything else I can think of to diffuse the situation.  In either event, I don't have a RIGHT to never be offended, so my rights are not compromised, and neither are theirs.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 12, 2021, 07:21:19 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 11, 2021, 01:32:09 PM

Quote from: Skeever on May 11, 2021, 01:03:32 PM

Having nothing to blame for something that goes wrong or feels wrong is such a frustrating thing for anyone to go through. There's nothing satisfying about coming to the realization that there's "no reason" why I'm so unhappy, or why I'm so angry all the time, or why there's such great tragedy in the world. Having something to scapegoat is so much better. So when a child starts missing these milestones, who does a parent blame? Not themselves, obviously, so something else. Well, there is likely SOME reason why autism exists, but we just don't understand what it is. That's when maybe those vaccines become incredibly appealing scapegoats.

People tend to not want to blame themselves. They rather point the finger and blame the other. It all plays into the entire reaction to the cause, and it's effect is staggering.

You have both sides of the vaccine argument pointing fingers at one another. Not one will point the finger at themselves. One blames the other for spreading sickness, and one blames the other for losing freedoms. Where is the middle ground?

Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. "Someone has to lose, and someone has to win".

When it comes to children. Parents do not want and don't like it when others try and tell them how they should raise their child...

And you won't know and understand how it is raising a child until you have one. Because of the fact you are always with that child. Mothers have a connection with that child for the rest of their lives, and no one should take that away, it's why you get mother's stealing their children back from adoption.

Would you rather Child Protective Services take away their child because you feel the child is unsafe and in harm's way? Without knowing the full facts and understanding of how it is to raise a child, then you should have no say into HOW these parents raise their child. There is no right way to raise a child. There is a right way to raise a child in the mindset of a society, and mold them to fit into the mold of that society.

And who determines whether that Society is right or wrong?


This will and always has been the issue when governments and others try and tell people HOW to raise one's own child.

That's not how our government works. But it is how communistic societies work, as they determine how and what your child will become, and is raised only for that pre-determined purpose.


I understand how much people are suddenly caring about others. But also, don't be intrusive and invading of their personal freedoms. It's not up to you to determine these things for people. Its the premise for tending to your own garden. Yes, that person is doing this, but if it's not affecting you, why bother. If it's nothing you can control, then you control it the best way you can for yourself and your own garden. Cause in the end, you're garden will still be fine and dandy, because you took the precautions and did something about it. While the other doesn't have crops, and has no produce, because they didn't see the clouds forming and the wind blowing and weather indicating an unseasonal winter storm is approaching.

I think I get what you mean, and I think I agree. Even in a super-individualistic society like the United States, with a billion different cultural wedge issues, there's a strong nationalistic sense of "we're on the same team" and that certain things must occur for the public good. This is due to so many things - education, the media, policing, and so on, that are titled toward reinforcing this sense of US nationalism in practically every citizen through the myriad of rules, public discussions, behavioral punishments, and so on. It's hard for people to even imagine what live without Government coercion would look like. And when it comes to public health, politicians may pry at people's desire to make their own decisions and see if drumming up some anger about that might win them some votes or at least some donations, even when most probably believe the ramifications of letting the majority ignore public health recommendations would be pretty catastrophic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MoraWintersoul on May 13, 2021, 03:34:07 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 12, 2021, 10:25:54 AM

It does, but the devil is in the details.   If you FORCE the other guy to act - however they act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are forcing them to adopt your standard.   If you CHOOSE to act - however you act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are not adopting THEIR standard - they didn't force you to do anything - you are simply enforcing your own standard.  It's a subtle difference, but in the world, which is nothing more than a endless list of competing rights and obligations, that's the line we sort of have to follow (and which we follow every day in countless ways).

There's enough people in every society who think their temporary discomfort is on the same level of seriousness as someone else literally dying that we can't rely on just mitigating risks for ourselves, but also for each other. And when it's an actual life or death situation, we have to codify that, if not into law, then the strictest social norms possible so that people whose only precious person is themselves at least stop and think about the consequences before they ruin a life with their negligence. We have to have traffic laws, and you can say stuff like "well, I won't speed, and I'll wear a seat belt, and that's the standard I am enforcing for myself. We can't eliminate risk of death on the road, someone could hit me any minute", and that's all nice and rational, but when you see someone changing lanes like an outlaw and almost hitting someone else, you're not gonna say "well, such is life, risky, but I can't make a person behave like I would behind the wheel after all, and I have taken all the measures I can take to protect myself so I feel at peace with this situation", you're gonna say "oh my fucking god, that son of a bitch."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 13, 2021, 08:32:52 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 13, 2021, 03:34:07 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 12, 2021, 10:25:54 AM

It does, but the devil is in the details.   If you FORCE the other guy to act - however they act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are forcing them to adopt your standard.   If you CHOOSE to act - however you act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are not adopting THEIR standard - they didn't force you to do anything - you are simply enforcing your own standard.  It's a subtle difference, but in the world, which is nothing more than a endless list of competing rights and obligations, that's the line we sort of have to follow (and which we follow every day in countless ways).

There's enough people in every society who think their temporary discomfort is on the same level of seriousness as someone else literally dying that we can't rely on just mitigating risks for ourselves, but also for each other. And when it's an actual life or death situation, we have to codify that, if not into law, then the strictest social norms possible so that people whose only precious person is themselves at least stop and think about the consequences before they ruin a life with their negligence. We have to have traffic laws, and you can say stuff like "well, I won't speed, and I'll wear a seat belt, and that's the standard I am enforcing for myself. We can't eliminate risk of death on the road, someone could hit me any minute", and that's all nice and rational, but when you see someone changing lanes like an outlaw and almost hitting someone else, you're not gonna say "well, such is life, risky, but I can't make a person behave like I would behind the wheel after all, and I have taken all the measures I can take to protect myself so I feel at peace with this situation", you're gonna say "oh my fucking god, that son of a bitch."

Well, here where I am from, people do not know how to drive. They do not give a shit about these "traffic laws" or they don't know the laws. In turn, I have to basically be a defensive driver around town. Because people will, turn when I'm turning, speed up when I'm turning, won't use their turn signal, will stop and make a U-turn when you shouldn't make one.

Now imagine how the Cyclists must feel when riding around here. They obviously know the risk is really high, yet they don't care and they don't follow their own rules and laws as well, which is not to be riding in a clustered group, you have to ride in a single file line, most Cyclists don't do this, and end up hogging the roads, or making the cars go more into the other lane just to pass them. We do have designated roads that are both shared with Bicycles and Cars.

This isn't even including the people on one street we call Central, where people whom are homeless, bums, or the drug addicts, all mingle and there is one intersection they love hanging out on and jaywalk on. They obviously don't give a shit. A lot of people Jaywalk here.

We could care all we want about the other and their risks, but why, when they themselves do not care about those risks? Sometimes, all we can do is tend our own garden, while we watch the other destroy their own. All you can do as a person, is do things that will protect yourself.

Because the reality is, people do not give a rats ass about risks, and do not care the same as you do, they don't care about your risk to them. This is reality, and there is nothing you can do to change it. These are things that are out of peoples control. Which is why you should focus on yourself and your community, and not worry about what some other person across the country is risking their own life for. It's basically to Me, unnecessary worry. And that worry should be focused on only you, your family, and community.

This is how Societies have survived through history.

It's only been until the birth of the internet where the world has been able to worry and care about people from the other side of the pond. In turn, this made us humans see, that we are all the same, we are no different, than one another. Our uniqueness is our environment we were raised in. This is how our world is evolving, because people did not care about those on the other side, they only cared and worried about their own garden.

This mindset was not the same as it is today. The modern mindset is a brand new mindset, that includes and is brought on by the connectivity we currently have available that we humans never had the capability to do before this Moment in our history. We didn't realize it, but the internet was a really big leap for mankind, that we ourselves do not know how to conduct ourselves with it and have to learn to adapt.


Risks will always be here, whether one likes it or not. It's balancing the security and the freedoms associated with Risks.

And let me tell you, not many peoples thresholds are high now they got vaccinated. Most do not know or don't care about the science, they trust it enough to take whatever's just so they can be able to go out and play with people. There's people that don't care at all or worry about these things. It's why I feel, Media plays a big role in how people perceive, because they trust what the media is telling them is the truth.

Trust goes a long way in how one perceives. It's amazing how ones world view and belief relies on that trust.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 13, 2021, 09:02:04 AM

Now I've heard about Covid toes after an infection and Covid arm after a vaccine but now we have Covid lips??

(https://i.imgur.com/zAhrpkD.jpg)

I don't think anyone here needs to worry but apparently it is rarely associated with dermal fillers used by some on their lips and facial lines around their mouths cosmetically.  What's really weird is that it has happened to women who hadn't used fillers in years - in one case not since 2018! 

This truly is the most bizarre disease...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 13, 2021, 09:05:13 AM

I keep reading about covid nails too

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 13, 2021, 09:06:49 AM

So it seems there are some anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers who are so afraid of the virus shedding that they're resorting to a ironic way to protect themselves... Masks...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated (https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 13, 2021, 09:20:26 AM

Only in America...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 13, 2021, 09:25:39 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 13, 2021, 09:20:26 AM

Only in America...

I had to triple check it to make sure it wasn't the onion

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 13, 2021, 09:31:15 AM

Crotchless panties for dummies. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 09:39:22 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 13, 2021, 09:06:49 AM

So it seems there are some anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers who are so afraid of the virus shedding that they're resorting to a ironic way to protect themselves... Masks...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated (https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated)

Where have I heard this before??  Oh yeah, LAST PAGE!!  :lol :lol

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 11:56:01 AM

Also came in here to post this.  From the sublime, to the ridiculous.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated

No folks, this is not an Onion or HardTimes article.  Reminds me of this meme:

(https://img.ifunny.co/images/f21e7e1ec3667b245fa7038067b0a2c1b74ac67d5d6b8af240e5c543cb95fdbf_1.jpg)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 13, 2021, 10:07:53 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 09:39:22 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 13, 2021, 09:06:49 AM

So it seems there are some anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers who are so afraid of the virus shedding that they're resorting to a ironic way to protect themselves... Masks...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated (https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated)

Where have I heard this before??  Oh yeah, LAST PAGE!!  :lol :lol

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 11, 2021, 11:56:01 AM

Also came in here to post this.  From the sublime, to the ridiculous.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated

No folks, this is not an Onion or HardTimes article.  Reminds me of this meme:

(https://img.ifunny.co/images/f21e7e1ec3667b245fa7038067b0a2c1b74ac67d5d6b8af240e5c543cb95fdbf_1.jpg)

My bad for not reading every post.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 10:14:28 AM

Well, at least MYYYYY posts!!!   :lol

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F774.gif&hash=300a04f18eb00aaf3126334c115c53a08643f109)

Just razzin ya bro.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 13, 2021, 10:48:49 AM

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 13, 2021, 03:34:07 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 12, 2021, 10:25:54 AM

It does, but the devil is in the details.   If you FORCE the other guy to act - however they act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are forcing them to adopt your standard.   If you CHOOSE to act - however you act - in order to improve YOUR risk, you are not adopting THEIR standard - they didn't force you to do anything - you are simply enforcing your own standard.  It's a subtle difference, but in the world, which is nothing more than a endless list of competing rights and obligations, that's the line we sort of have to follow (and which we follow every day in countless ways).

There's enough people in every society who think their temporary discomfort is on the same level of seriousness as someone else literally dying that we can't rely on just mitigating risks for ourselves, but also for each other. And when it's an actual life or death situation, we have to codify that, if not into law, then the strictest social norms possible so that people whose only precious person is themselves at least stop and think about the consequences before they ruin a life with their negligence. We have to have traffic laws, and you can say stuff like "well, I won't speed, and I'll wear a seat belt, and that's the standard I am enforcing for myself. We can't eliminate risk of death on the road, someone could hit me any minute", and that's all nice and rational, but when you see someone changing lanes like an outlaw and almost hitting someone else, you're not gonna say "well, such is life, risky, but I can't make a person behave like I would behind the wheel after all, and I have taken all the measures I can take to protect myself so I feel at peace with this situation", you're gonna say "oh my fucking god, that son of a bitch."

I can't say I disagree with you, but I'd feel a lot better about it if humans were fundamentally better at judging risk.  Too often, your perfectly reasonable scenario veers off into the unreasonable (or should I say, unsupported by basic facts and/or risk probabilities).  If your scenario played out in real life as reasonably as you put it here (and I'm being sincere; you put it very well) we'd be doing a lot more to medically combat obesity, for example, (which impacts 40% of Americans, and that's without considering the systemic cost) instead of trying to change the narrative regarding risks that impact a fraction of that.    To paraphrase your example, we have a metaphorical tendency to focus on the guy swerving lanes, and point to government to "stop that", all the while we're cruising down the highway in the left hand lane doing 58 while texting with our besties with a line of frustrated drivers behind us.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 13, 2021, 10:58:14 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 10:14:28 AM

Well, at least MYYYYY posts!!!   :lol

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F774.gif&hash=300a04f18eb00aaf3126334c115c53a08643f109)

Just razzin ya bro.

I mean, we're best buds and all... But even reading all your posts isn't worth my valuable time. It's not like your Dave M.....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 13, 2021, 11:52:09 AM

CDC is reportedly "easing" indoor mask mandates as of today.  I can hear people screaming (both for and against) already. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/13/covid-vaccine-cdc-variant-fda-clots-world-health-organization/5066504001/

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 13, 2021, 11:56:50 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 13, 2021, 11:52:09 AM

CDC is reportedly "easing" indoor mask mandates as of today.  I can hear people screaming (both for and against) already. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/13/covid-vaccine-cdc-variant-fda-clots-world-health-organization/5066504001/

It's official. Mandate still in effect in California, this should be a really interesting night at the supermarket for me. Good thing I don't give a whole bunch of fucks about that job.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 13, 2021, 12:00:02 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 13, 2021, 11:52:09 AM

CDC is reportedly "easing" indoor mask mandates as of today.  I can hear people screaming (both for and against) already. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/13/covid-vaccine-cdc-variant-fda-clots-world-health-organization/5066504001/

If people are against it, no one is stopping them from continuing to wear a mask.  Honestly, this just makes sense to slowly start easing up on restrictions and guidelines.  The numbers are just flat out plummeting nationally.  Here locally in NJ, the numbers are basically negligent.  The slow easing back into normalcy seems to be working here and 1 week from now all things besides large indoor events will no longer have restrictions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 13, 2021, 02:01:20 PM

Based on the knowledge of how much is put into live shows. I had a feeling they were going to ease on restrictions soon. No  band will risk losing money by cancelling or postponing a show again.

Didn't think it'd be this soon. But good to know.

I laughed at this paragraph on the NPR article on this, it's where I first saw the story.

Quote

Unvaccinated people "remain at risk" of illness and death, Walensky said, and should remain masked and observe physical distancing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 13, 2021, 02:10:45 PM

Well unvaccinated people are still at risk.  I saw a headline saying 99% of all covid hospitalizations in one area of the US (forget where) were from unvaccinated people. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 13, 2021, 02:11:35 PM

Being in CT, I'm fine with the CDC's new recommendations. There are probably still areas in the country that are a little hot and this might be a bit premature, but that's up to the states to determine at this point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 13, 2021, 02:49:56 PM

Sooner or later we had to take this step. I'm excited for it but a little concerned it will lead to another surge.

Hoping for the best.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 02:52:05 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 13, 2021, 02:49:56 PM

Sooner or later we had to take this step. I'm excited for it but a little concerned it will lead to another surge.

Hoping for the best.

Exactly.  I'm hoping it works out well for the US... cuz it means good things on the horizon for us up here (I still maintain we're 2-3 months behind where your at with vaccine outcomes).

Also, jingle.kids got their first shots yesterday.  :fistpump:  By August sometime (at the latest) the jingle.family should be fully vax'd.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 13, 2021, 02:53:22 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 02:52:05 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 13, 2021, 02:49:56 PM

Sooner or later we had to take this step. I'm excited for it but a little concerned it will lead to another surge.

Hoping for the best.

Exactly.  I'm hoping it works out well for the US... cuz it means good things on the horizon for us up here (I still maintain we're 2-3 months behind where your at with vaccine outcomes).

Also, jingle.kids got their first shots yesterday.  :fistpump:  By August sometime (at the latest) the jingle.family should be fully vax'd.

How old are your kids?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 13, 2021, 02:58:41 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/vaccinated-americans-now-may-go-without-masks-in-most-places-the-c-d-c-said/ar-BB1gHKGM?ocid=msedgntp

"Vaccinated Americans Now May Go Without Masks in Most Places, the C.D.C. said"

Some new CDC info

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 13, 2021, 03:05:11 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 13, 2021, 02:49:56 PM

Sooner or later we had to take this step. I'm excited for it but a little concerned it will lead to another surge.

Hoping for the best.

Maybe, but if that's the case it'll be dominantly unvaccinated people who have chosen their path.  At some point, it's really not my concern anymore. 

The 7 day average of daily cases for the last 5 weeks in NJ:

Quote

April 1 - 4600
April 19 -3670
April 30 - 2047
May 5 - 1628
May 12 - 653

That sharp decline certainly seems like herd immunity is kicking in and it's no surprise that NJ is one of the most vaccinated states in the US.  Once again, the proof is in the pudding that the vaccines work. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 13, 2021, 03:21:16 PM

I agree.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 13, 2021, 03:38:43 PM

Well, herd immunity means something specific in this context.  Given the percentages vaccinated, I don't think the dropoff technically fits the definition.  That isn't to say we aren't moving in the right direction, or that we aren't getting close--we are. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 13, 2021, 04:15:22 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 13, 2021, 03:38:43 PM

Well, herd immunity means something specific in this context.  Given the percentages vaccinated, I don't think the dropoff technically fits the definition.  That isn't to say we aren't moving in the right direction, or that we aren't getting close--we are.

The other side of the coin is NJ was one of the worst states with infections.  About 43% fully vaccinated, 55% with 1 shot.  Add in all the infections already and it's likely very close to the magic number, but herd immunity is not something that happens at a certain point, it gradually gets there and that's what we are seeing IMO.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 08:01:14 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 13, 2021, 02:53:22 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 13, 2021, 02:52:05 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 13, 2021, 02:49:56 PM

Sooner or later we had to take this step. I'm excited for it but a little concerned it will lead to another surge.

Hoping for the best.

Exactly.  I'm hoping it works out well for the US... cuz it means good things on the horizon for us up here (I still maintain we're 2-3 months behind where your at with vaccine outcomes).

Also, jingle.kids got their first shots yesterday.  :fistpump:  By August sometime (at the latest) the jingle.family should be fully vax'd.

How old are your kids?

20 ... 21 in a few months.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 13, 2021, 09:31:58 PM

I'm done, wife is done, and got 18 year old scheduled for his second, and 16 year old for his first.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 13, 2021, 11:46:00 PM

Back to a previous conversation you and I were having Chad, research is backing up the British and Canadian approaches of having a longer gap between doses: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/may/14/delay-in-giving-second-jabs-of-pfizer-vaccine-improves-immunity

So not only does it allow more people to get their first jab quickly, it also likely improves the effectiveness of the vaccine.

Also I mentioned before that the UK has taken a risk-focused approach to the rollout, starting with the eldest and most vulnerable and then working down through the population. Completely makes sense to me and I've just got used to it, so it does just seem weird to me that young people in their teens and early 20s are already being vaccinated in north America.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 14, 2021, 04:42:04 AM

Rich, in America we also cascaded from the elderly through the youth. The 65+ started in February here.  I think maybe the rollout started earlier.

Maybe the vaccine was approved earlier than in GB?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 14, 2021, 04:47:03 AM

Quote from: ariich on May 13, 2021, 11:46:00 PM

Back to a previous conversation you and I were having Chad, research is backing up the British and Canadian approaches of having a longer gap between doses: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/may/14/delay-in-giving-second-jabs-of-pfizer-vaccine-improves-immunity

So not only does it allow more people to get their first jab quickly, it also likely improves the effectiveness of the vaccine.

 :tup :tup.

I think the US is able to get down to the 12-year old range because they have an abundance of supply.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2021, 07:57:34 AM

Quote from: ariich on May 13, 2021, 11:46:00 PM

Also I mentioned before that the UK has taken a risk-focused approach to the rollout, starting with the eldest and most vulnerable and then working down through the population. Completely makes sense to me and I've just got used to it, so it does just seem weird to me that young people in their teens and early 20s are already being vaccinated in north America.

I don't think it's reliable to look at vaccination rates on a national scale here.  It's just too state-controlled for that to be of any real analytical use.   My state - Connecticut - leads the nation in vaccination rates (https://portal.ct.gov/Office-of-the-Governor/News/Press-Releases/2021/05-2021/Governor-Lamont-Announces-12-15-Year-Olds-in-Connecticut-Can-Receive-Pfizer).   Over 70% of the population has at least one dose, and over 55% have two doses.  I can't find the cite, but I recall on the news not long ago, we're almost to or in the 90% bracket for over 65.    We're now wide open for 12-18 year olds.  It's the natural progression, if you ask me, and if you believe the higher end of Fauci's herd immunity predictions - 70% to 90% - then we NEED children to be vaccinated.   Something like 22% of the population is in that age bracket.

And by the way, not for nothing, but while I'm a HUGE fan of Fauci, and respect him immensely, this is not helping his - or the general - cause (https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/90445).  DO NOT claim "facts!" and "science!" then tailor your message to the narrative.  This undermines confidence and does NOTHING to convince those that are skeptical that what you say is objective truth. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 14, 2021, 08:39:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 14, 2021, 07:57:34 AM

And by the way, not for nothing, but while I'm a HUGE fan of Fauci, and respect him immensely, this is not helping his - or the general - cause (https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/90445).  DO NOT claim "facts!" and "science!" then tailor your message to the narrative.  This undermines confidence and does NOTHING to convince those that are skeptical that what you say is objective truth.

My response here is not meant to defend Fauci.  I too respect the man, especially when his career in total is taken into account.  But I think anyone who had been in the position he was in during this pandemic would've fallen into the same traps.  The problem isn't just about "facts!" and "science!" here.  Covid-19 as a virus is simply unlike any other virus we've had to deal with.  So "facts!" and "science!" are more difficult to gage because typical knowns are not knowns here.  It doesn't surprise me at all that herd immunity in this instance isn't going to look like herd immunity in measles or pertussis.  Kids, for example, just don't show as high of infection and mortality rates.  This is highly unusual.  And these factors around herd immunity are bound shift as vaccines are rolled out at different paces throughout the world and as differing variants come into play.

Fauci has undoubtedly been under enormous pressure.  Every word he utters is going to be parsed and scrutinized as though he were writing the 10 commandments.  And as much as doctors like to play god, he isn't one.  I myself have been highly critical of the way public health messaging has been put out there over the past 18 months.  What I'm seeing now seems to be an actual coming around to the "science" and "facts" and being driven less by political pressures.  And that's a good thing.  There is still plenty of time to fuck it up though.   :-\

FTR, this article from December you've linked by Dr. Vinay Prasad is one that I've read before.  I love Prasad's podcast, Plenary Sessions.  Prasad is one of the physicians who convinced me to look at issues like masks and school closures in a very different way and I respect him almost as much as I do Dr. Monica Gandhi.  However, yesterday on Twitter he posted a series of Tweets attacking a fellow physician who challenged him on various Covid topics over the past few months.  Prasad has been a vocal critic of Twitter wars and has long eschewed that platform as trash, many times threatening to quit himself, and being very critical of fellow doctor's who post there for "likes" and attention.  So I found his exchanges on that platform very troubling in light of what he has said before.  Perhaps his beef with the guy was legit, I don't know.  I didn't follow much of it.  But in one fell swoop everything I thought I knew about the guy shifted once I saw his behavior on Twitter.  Very sad to see this kind of behavior I would expect from high schoolers come from physicians, TBH.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 14, 2021, 08:41:37 AM

My entire family is now vaccinated.

So of course, now that we can relatively safely go anywhere and do almost anything, we have the gas shortage to deal with.  Fuck me sideways.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2021, 09:01:17 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 14, 2021, 08:39:32 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 14, 2021, 07:57:34 AM

And by the way, not for nothing, but while I'm a HUGE fan of Fauci, and respect him immensely, this is not helping his - or the general - cause (https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/90445).  DO NOT claim "facts!" and "science!" then tailor your message to the narrative.  This undermines confidence and does NOTHING to convince those that are skeptical that what you say is objective truth.

My response here is not meant to defend Fauci.  I too respect the man, especially when his career in total is taken into account.  But I think anyone who had been in the position he was in during this pandemic would've fallen into the same traps.  The problem isn't just about "facts!" and "science!" here.  Covid-19 as a virus is simply unlike any other virus we've had to deal with.  So "facts!" and "science!" are more difficult to gage because typical knowns are not knowns here.  It doesn't surprise me at all that herd immunity in this instance isn't going to look like herd immunity in measles or pertussis.  Kids, for example, just don't show as high of infection and mortality rates.  This is highly unusual.  And these factors around herd immunity are bound shift as vaccines are rolled out at different paces throughout the world and as differing variants come into play.

Fauci has undoubtedly been under enormous pressure.  Every word he utters is going to be parsed and scrutinized as though he were writing the 10 commandments.  And as much as doctors like to play god, he isn't one.  I myself have been highly critical of the way public health messaging has been put out there over the past 18 months.  What I'm seeing now seems to be an actual coming around to the "science" and "facts" and being driven less by political pressures.  And that's a good thing.  There is still plenty of time to fuck it up though.   :-\

FTR, this article from December you've linked by Dr. Vinay Prasad is one that I've read before.  I love Prasad's podcast, Plenary Sessions.  Prasad is one of the physicians who convinced me to look at issues like masks and school closures in a very different way and I respect him almost as much as I do Dr. Monica Gandhi.  However, yesterday on Twitter he posted a series of Tweets attacking a fellow physician who challenged him on various Covid topics over the past few months.  Prasad has been a vocal critic of Twitter wars and has long eschewed that platform as trash, many times threatening to quit himself, and being very critical of fellow doctor's who post there for "likes" and attention.  So I found his exchanges on that platform very troubling in light of what he has said before.  Perhaps his beef with the guy was legit, I don't know.  I didn't follow much of it.  But in one fell swoop everything I thought I knew about the guy shifted once I saw his behavior on Twitter.  Very sad to see this kind of behavior I would expect from high schoolers come from physicians, TBH.

I'm pretty sure I don't disagree with you there.  There's certainly a lot of context to my comment.  I think I'm more saying "look, if one is going to put their faith in hard facts and hard science, do it, and if we're going to allow even our experts to tailor to the message, then we can't really fault others for either not taking it on faith, or doing their own parsing."

I've already said, I'm a fan of Fauci; he's a towering figure, no question.  But if one -  not me - is already looking for cracks in the expertise, that does nothing to close them for the skeptics.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 14, 2021, 09:24:05 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 14, 2021, 08:41:37 AM

My entire family is now vaccinated.

So of course, now that we can relatively safely go anywhere and do almost anything, we have the gas shortage to deal with.  Fuck me sideways.

You guys are right in the thick of it too, my $4.30/gallon is looking pretty damn good right now...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 14, 2021, 09:46:05 AM

I'm crying about $2.85 per gallon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2021, 09:53:29 AM

I remember paying $5.20+ when I was in college. My roommate had a heavily modified, supercharged Trans Am that got about 6.5mpg. He didn't drive for weeks  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 14, 2021, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 14, 2021, 09:46:05 AM

I'm crying about $2.85 per gallon.

At the low point last year we got a bit below that. Granted I think here about a buck of it is taxes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2021, 12:52:21 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 14, 2021, 09:24:05 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 14, 2021, 08:41:37 AM

My entire family is now vaccinated.

So of course, now that we can relatively safely go anywhere and do almost anything, we have the gas shortage to deal with.  Fuck me sideways.

You guys are right in the thick of it too, my $4.30/gallon is looking pretty damn good right now...

F--- that.   Man.  I'm in CT, which taxes the CRAP out of stuff like gas, cigs, and liquor, and I filled the tank on my wife's car just last night with 93 octane for $3.39 (that means Massachusetts is likely about $3.19 or so).   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 14, 2021, 01:20:36 PM

I paid 2.89/gallon to fill up my tank this morning

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 14, 2021, 01:23:43 PM

I paid $3.10 eariler this week, saw some signs that show 3.05 to 3.15 driving today.  It seems there's not really much to worry about, long term, since the pipeline is back in operation.  I didn't see any lines or people trying to grab as much gas as possible at all this week in NJ, just a bit of a price increase.

I still remember the days of my first year driving with $0.99 per gallon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 14, 2021, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 14, 2021, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 14, 2021, 09:46:05 AM

I'm crying about $2.85 per gallon.

At the low point last year we got a bit below that. Granted I think here about a buck of it is taxes.

As well as all that traffic.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 14, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I don't remember a ton of traffic on the SF side, but we were definitely in it one afternoon driving by the Oakland Coliseum.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 14, 2021, 08:42:16 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 14, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I don't remember a ton of traffic on the SF side, but we were definitely in it one afternoon driving by the Oakland Coliseum.

That stretch of 880 by the Coliseum is the worst of it all in the area. I actively avoid it even though it's my shortest route to and from work.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 14, 2021, 08:52:16 PM

Quote from: lonestar on May 14, 2021, 08:42:16 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 14, 2021, 02:13:27 PM

I don't remember a ton of traffic on the SF side, but we were definitely in it one afternoon driving by the Oakland Coliseum.

That stretch of 880 by the Coliseum is the worst of it all in the area. I actively avoid it even though it's my shortest route to and from work.

My oldest son wanted to see the world's oldest lightbulb in Livermore, and then my youngest son just had to go see the Nike store in San Leandro.

I think that was the only time we really encountered traffic during our trip.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ProfessorPeart on May 14, 2021, 10:10:39 PM

Went into the office today for the first time in about 2 1/2 years so I could get a new laptop. Had lunch with my best friend who I had not seen since March of last year. That was at our friends funeral.

I didn't get all the people saying how it felt weird to be out and eat in a restaurant. Well, we both acknowledged that it felt weird and we have had lunch together probably hundreds of times over the years.

We're planning a summer get-together and cookout at his house so we can try to reconnect finally. Both our families are fully vaccinated so we aren't quite as worried.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 15, 2021, 12:26:23 AM

Random post on FB...

"Just got my vax...now wandering around Rite Aid drawing dicks for Bill Gates.." :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 15, 2021, 07:47:37 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 15, 2021, 12:26:23 AM

Random post on FB...

"Just got my vax...now wandering around Rite Aid drawing dicks for Bill Gates.." :lol

Worthless fun fact - I went to and graduated in the same class as Melinda French-Gates. That is all....

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 15, 2021, 04:35:53 PM

Several places have lifted mask restrictions. Wal-Mart is one. The wife and I got a few supplies today...maskless. What a WEIRD feeling. 75% of the people were still wearing them. I swear, we felt like criminals or something. It's crazy how conditioned we've become. Gonna take a long time to feel normal without a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 15, 2021, 04:36:33 PM

Quote from: emtee on May 15, 2021, 04:35:53 PM

Several places have lifted mask restrictions. Wal-Mart is one. The wife and I got a few supplies today...maskless. What a WEIRD feeling. 75% of the people were still wearing them. I swear, we felt like criminals or something. It's crazy how conditioned we've become. Gonna take a long time to feel normal without a mask.

Indeed! I see myself still wearing one inside places for a while but am adjusting to being outside without one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 15, 2021, 07:33:20 PM

NJ has said they will wait a few weeks to lift the mandate, but funny how I saw someone I know on Facebook posted about not going to wear a mask and not being vaccinated and being "confused" by Biden's tweet. Then at the grocery store today, I saw one person (who I haven't seen in like forever) without a mask on in the store and guess who it was?  :lol I just avoided her and didn't say hi.  Who knows if she recognized me as it's been so long and I was masked, but I really didn't want to do a stop and chat regardless.  I kind of don't care about what people choose to do at this point, but just found it very ironic. 

Because the state still has the rule, I will follow, but I'm ready to unmask.  I've been mostly living my life like normal for a month now, other than the mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 15, 2021, 08:51:16 PM

It's funny, I got my job at Whole Foods during the pandemic, and I'm wondering if I'll even recognize any of my coworkers mask less.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 16, 2021, 01:18:03 PM

the US-Canada the border is still partially closed, only commercial trucks and essential travel is allowed but it will have to reopen eventually.  PBS newshour just did a rundown of the situation as it stands: https://youtu.be/42ta6VZu7vA

edit: transcript here https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/vaccinations-are-picking-up-is-it-time-to-reopen-the-us-canada-border?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=newshour&utm_content=1621188061

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 17, 2021, 09:36:06 AM

The Wal Mart distribution center I work at and all others are telling employees tomorrow that those fully vaccinated can go maskless at work starting tomorrow.  My company is asking us to wear masks still until, they hash out our policy this week. They have to make a decision quick because I know damn well there will be friction.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 17, 2021, 09:47:22 AM

My wife and I ate at a restaurant for the first time in over a year.  It was really weird.

Yesterday, I spent way too much time and way too much money at Barnes & Noble.  Everybody there was still masked, though.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 18, 2021, 10:16:09 PM

Say what you want about coincidences, but Senator Paul publicly exposing and linking Fauci to Wuhan last week for all to see and hear,
and then suddenly all these roll backs on mask policies come around right after, when we haven't gotten anywhere near the amount of vaccinations we were told we needed to start going back to normal, is a little bit odd..
and also "look! look at Israel blowing stuff up omgz!"
but that's none of my business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2021, 11:36:06 PM

I had an odd encounter today. Met my boss's FiL on a job site today, and he was a very gregarious man, and when introduced, we both did what men generally (at least prior to 2020) do in such a situation. We extended our hands to each other. We pulled back for a second in hesitancy, then both laughed, and awkwardly shook each other's hand. It was my first handshake in a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 19, 2021, 06:36:25 AM

That's funny ... I precisely remember my last handshake.  It was the first week of March last year, and I'd just hosted a group of contacts from my customer to a quarterly review and dinner.  As we were all departing the restaurant, I shook the hand of my primary contact, and even thought 'hmmm... I probably shouldn't have done that'.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2021, 06:52:05 AM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/9-vaccinated-yankees-team-and-staff-tested-positive-for-covid-here-s-how-that-happens/ar-BB1gRTlF

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 19, 2021, 07:38:31 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 06:52:05 AM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/9-vaccinated-yankees-team-and-staff-tested-positive-for-covid-here-s-how-that-happens/ar-BB1gRTlF

To me, and as the article states, this actually shows that the vaccines work.  No one is really sick, 2 have mild illness the rest are asymptomatic and the ones with the mild cases likely were the spreaders.  It also, to me, builds a case of why just about everyone should get the vaccine because if you didn't and you were around the Yankees, you might have gotten very sick. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2021, 07:53:19 AM

Yeah, I think that's cool, and this article seems to illustrate that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 19, 2021, 08:07:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 07:53:19 AM

Yeah, I think that's cool, and this article seems to illustrate that.

It does, but I had to explain this to someone yesterday who used it as a anti-vax reason. "oh but the yankees are all sick, and so is Bill Maher" ... uh huh they are all 100% fine.

The reality is, and the article also suggested it, that there's likely a significant amount of breakthrough cases but because people feel fine, they aren't just going to go get tested unlike the Yankees who will get tested regularly. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 19, 2021, 09:16:37 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2021, 08:07:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 07:53:19 AM

Yeah, I think that's cool, and this article seems to illustrate that.

It does, but I had to explain this to someone yesterday who used it as a anti-vax reason. "oh but the yankees are all sick, and so is Bill Maher" ... uh huh they are all 100% fine.

The reality is, and the article also suggested it, that there's likely a significant amount of breakthrough cases but because people feel fine, they aren't just going to go get tested unlike the Yankees who will get tested regularly.

And that's how it was before the pandemic. People would only go to hospitals if they felt really bad. People never really went to hospitals until they were/are very bad, where it's revealed they waited too long and now need to be an in patient. Some people have high pain thresholds, and don't bother going in at all, until they're basically dying.

With the Pandemic, you had people going due to their fear of thinking they have Covid, which they never bothered to before. Which likely revealed that many of these people were in fact, not as healthy as they thought.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2021, 10:40:22 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2021, 08:07:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 07:53:19 AM

Yeah, I think that's cool, and this article seems to illustrate that.

It does, but I had to explain this to someone yesterday who used it as a anti-vax reason. "oh but the yankees are all sick, and so is Bill Maher" ... uh huh they are all 100% fine.

The reality is, and the article also suggested it, that there's likely a significant amount of breakthrough cases but because people feel fine, they aren't just going to go get tested unlike the Yankees who will get tested regularly.

People will take any sentence and spin it to their beliefs.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 19, 2021, 11:39:42 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2021, 10:40:22 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 19, 2021, 08:07:48 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 07:53:19 AM

Yeah, I think that's cool, and this article seems to illustrate that.

It does, but I had to explain this to someone yesterday who used it as a anti-vax reason. "oh but the yankees are all sick, and so is Bill Maher" ... uh huh they are all 100% fine.

The reality is, and the article also suggested it, that there's likely a significant amount of breakthrough cases but because people feel fine, they aren't just going to go get tested unlike the Yankees who will get tested regularly.

People will take any sentence and spin it to their beliefs.

I don't even know what their Anti-Vax reason is they're trying argue to Cram based on what he said. I just don't get what they're trying to argue with "Oh but, the Yankees got it and Bill Maher". Is it that they don't work at stopping infection?

Because vaccines are not a cure. They're a remedy, just like every medicine, both western and holistic, is a remedy to ease the pain, and help us feel good enough where the pain or sickness isn't impairing us from living out our life.

All medicines have side effects, and affect people differently, it's why you should always talk to your doctor before trying any medicines or remedies.

This vaccine is no different, it affects people differently. There is no real way to know how it will affect someone, unless they actually take it, that's why they had people wait to gather data on how that person will react to it. The only thing we know is that most people should be fine and shouldn't be feeling severe side effect symptoms from the vaccine.

This vaccine eases those severe symptoms that had caused many people to die,  and more to overwhelm the hospitals to where they couldn't handle the influx of patients and supplies for emergency care became so low, they had no choice but to focus primarily on these people, neglecting the other health issues that are just as bad or worse.

So if you are/were worried about it yourself, I sure hope you did get the vaccine. Those whom are not, will not get it. That doesn't necessarily mean they are Anti-Vax people. They just don't view the risks of catching Covid and the symptoms as much as you do.

 And how people suddenly started to care about the risks, I find interesting to ask about, if it was media that played into their fear and if they wouldn't have feared as much if they never knew about it through the media?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 19, 2021, 11:42:29 AM

Two things:

CDC guidelines are that if you are vaccinated then there is no need to to get tested.

Baseball protocol along with the NBA is that they get tested everyday and I think the NBA tests twice a day.

Conclusion - If vaccinated people got tested, I'm pretty sure the number of breakthrough cases would spike significantly but that doesn't mean the vaccine is not working. Just the opposite.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 19, 2021, 12:14:46 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 19, 2021, 11:42:29 AM

Two things:

CDC guidelines are that if you are vaccinated then there is no need to to get tested.

Baseball protocol along with the NBA is that they get tested everyday and I think the NBA tests twice a day.

Conclusion - If vaccinated people got tested, I'm pretty sure the number of breakthrough cases would spike significantly but that doesn't mean the vaccine is not working. Just the opposite.

Precisely, they only knew they had it because they had no choice to test. If they didn't, they wouldn't have known.

And exactly...The only reason we know people were sick was because of the mass testing that people voluntarily did. People did this because of their fear of catching it and either dying or being one of those severe cases, or passing it onto their loved one who may die or have a severe case. Even though, that loved one may not or just doesn't care at all or doesn't fear catching it. People did this because of their fear of losing that loved one. And those loved ones did so out of fear for dying or getting it severely. But there are people who just don't care either way and some likely welcomed it and wanted the sickness, so they can die and leave this world, there are people who actually want to die, but don't want to die by their own hand, and would prefer the "God strike me down now, please" approach.

This is why I played along and masked up and did not let the fear affect me at all. It's hard to stand your ground in the face of fear of the unknown. Which is what this pandemic was and people played on that fear.

Now that these vaccines work and those whom are worried got the vaccines and the only ones who should be concerned are those that are not vaccinated. Well, that's their choice and always has been their choice, whether they want to risk dying or getting severe symptoms of the virus.

There are also those that got it and are fine. And also, those cases that likely had Covid before it was known as Covid, and was the "Unknown Flu Like Virus".  All these people should have antibodies built up that should work just as fine as the vaccine does. Isn't this how we humans develop our immunity?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 19, 2021, 03:27:48 PM

Ben you always make it sound like covid is nothing, is that really what you believe or not?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2021, 03:31:22 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/stop-and-shop-wont-require-face-masks-for-fully-vaccinated-massachusetts-shoppers-after-may-29/ar-BB1gUPig?li=BBnbfcL

I don't work for S&S, but they are basically our main competitor. I hope we announce something similar soon, and I'll only have to wear my mask at work for another week.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 19, 2021, 03:40:16 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 03:31:22 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/stop-and-shop-wont-require-face-masks-for-fully-vaccinated-massachusetts-shoppers-after-may-29/ar-BB1gUPig?li=BBnbfcL

I don't work for S&S, but they are basically our main competitor. I hope we announce something similar soon, and I'll only have to wear my mask at work for another week.

I’ve seen that kind of stuff. But what’s the difference between no masks for vaccinated people and no masks for anyone? I doubt they’re checking who’s vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2021, 03:41:42 PM

Yeah, there's no way to make any distinction.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 19, 2021, 03:43:41 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 03:41:42 PM

Yeah, there's no way to make any distinction.

I guess one just sounds more responsible?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 19, 2021, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 19, 2021, 03:27:48 PM

Ben you always make it sound like covid is nothing, is that really what you believe or not?

That is not my intention if it comes across that way.

I do know that it is around. I know this, because the people in my community also had gotten hit hard, with a flu-like illness, during the mid-December to mid-January months, this was when Covid wasn't really known about, yet these people all experienced the symptoms that were pretty much identical to the symptoms of Covid, My dad included. Although, they were hit pretty good, it wasn't bad to where they needed to go into the hospital. As of this moment, we don't know what it was they had, all they were told is that it was a "Stronger Flu" and to get rest, it could very well have been covid, but as it stands we don't know.

I am just a person who tries not to let fear get the best of me. I try not to fear when in the face of danger. Even regarding Death, I do not see it as a big issue or deal, and this I feel is due to how much death I have seen already and experienced with many people I knew, Friends, Family, and people from my community. I've come to accept, death is a part of life, and we are all going to die someday. The catch is we just don't know when or how, and that is what I believe to be the fear of dying, and the concept of "Carpe Diem", seizing each day, and living like it's the last.

This has led to me to understand that we all are in control of our own lives, and that every decision we make in our lives is our own choice and decision, and there really is no one else to blame but you. As you are the only one in control of your own body. The main focus of your life should be you and only you, and then the other. That is self-responsibility, and I believe we are all accountable for this, and it is an important aspect to having compassion and to have an understanding and respect for the other.

I also did wear a mask when I went out, I did use sanitizer, I do wash my hands all the time when using the bathroom. I did all these things required of us, and am still fine, so are the people I have been around and continued to hang around with. And that was an agreement and decision Me and that person made ourselves. As time went on in the pandemic, I slowly opened up to outside friends, and they were/are fine as well. In the end, they just don't see it as a big enough deal to not want to hang out and enjoy our company. We all are doing these requirements, some took the vaccine and some didn't, and I only know this because they took it upon themselves to tell me, I didn't ask them at all.

Basically, what I believe is. Before you demand to control what someone does to their own body, you should consider looking at your own first before pointing that finger.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Elite on May 19, 2021, 11:41:23 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 14, 2021, 09:46:05 AM

I'm crying about $2.85 per gallon.

Wow, I never realised gasoline was that cheap in the US. It costs more than twice that here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 20, 2021, 03:58:51 AM

*Laughs in Swedish*

In Sweden, they have extended work from home and social distancing orders for Government agencies up until September. This is starting to drag...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 06:27:24 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 19, 2021, 03:43:41 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2021, 03:41:42 PM

Yeah, there's no way to make any distinction.

I guess one just sounds more responsible?

I think there's a sort of honor system, like most things in life.  We don't check other drivers to see if they have licenses and insurance, we just sort of assume that most people follow the rules.  The difference here is just that we don't have that obvious presence of a mask - or not - from which to hurl our judgement and condemnation at the other person.    ;)

I know for me, I've been a willing and compromising actor in all of this.  ALWAYS a mask (I have like five or six in each car, just in case).  Mask on when people come to the house.   Six feet where possible (I've gotten in so many steps by going down other aisles in Home Depot to avoid contact).  I went and got the vaccine almost first day.   I have my vax card in a plastic sleeve that I can take with me (and in photo on my phone).  I'm sort of interested myself what I'm going to do/say when someone walks up to me and gives me bizniss for something that really ISN'T their business.   I know me, I'll probably be polite but firm in flashing my card, but still, the temptation is there to be more aggressive in telling them to mind their own goddamn business, and tend their own goddamn garden.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 20, 2021, 07:06:02 AM

Quote from: Elite on May 19, 2021, 11:41:23 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 14, 2021, 09:46:05 AM

I'm crying about $2.85 per gallon.

Wow, I never realised gasoline was that cheap in the US. It costs more than twice that here.

You live in California too? :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 07:47:07 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 06:27:24 AM

I have my vax card in a plastic sleeve that I can take with me (and in photo on my phone). 

Have you actually had to pull that out?  I don't carry mine around.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 07:50:54 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 07:47:07 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 06:27:24 AM

I have my vax card in a plastic sleeve that I can take with me (and in photo on my phone). 

Have you actually had to pull that out?  I don't carry mine around.

Not yet, at least not like that.  I went to a bar last week to meet a friend and I put the card on the bar and asked the bartender if I could take off my mask.  She looked at me like I put my penis on the bar.  :)  She didn't care even one bit, as long as I was ordering drinks (they did have plexiglass up, though, so there was that.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 07:52:15 AM

Well, were you expecting to have a drink with the mask on?  :biggrin: And yea, I don't think bartenders gaf, they have been dealing with people maskless drinking this whole time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 20, 2021, 08:15:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 07:52:15 AM

Well, were you expecting to have a drink with the mask on?  :biggrin: And yea, I don't think bartenders gaf, they have been dealing with people maskless drinking this whole time.

I went to Dave and Busters when it finally opened back up here, and laughed at how they played it smart and had the tables set up by the Bar, it's a pretty thick bar from the customer to the Bartender, that way the bartender can just place the drink by the bar and the customer can reach and grab it, without having to go all the way around and give it to you, or wait for the server, as you sit and look at it sitting there.  :lol

I also got a free cake for dining in, so that was a nice inventive to go and eat there. Wasn't expecting that, but it was nice. This was before they allowed them to open their arcade room.

Next is likely, Mini-golf and then Bowling.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 08:44:24 AM

The numbers continue to get better:

Quote

28,541 positives reported yesterday compared to 35,926 week over week. 7-day rolling average is at 29,975.

Fatality was 636 compared to 733 yesterday and 848 week over week, 7-day rolling fatality at 591.

Hospitalizations reported 7 day rolling average is 26,415 compared to one week ago 30,991 down 14.8%.

Hospital admissions reported 7 day rolling average is 3,501 compared to one week ago 4,146 down 15.6%.

Under 30k daily cases is a nice milestone, although I do think some of this has to do with less testing going on.  Vaccinated people aren't getting tested, school sports are either over or ending so there goes lots of testing too.  But the hospitializations have steadily gone down and deaths are just slowly coming down.  I suspect due to the lag of deaths being 4 or so weeks behind cases.  I expect those will drop soon enough.

My guess of being fully open by memorial day seems to have been legit (even though I thought maybe mid June was more likely after the J&J pause and slowdown of shots).  NJ basically fully opened yesterday (indoor large events still have a restriction, but that's about it). I see Fenway Park will be at full capacity before the end of the month.  Mets/Yankees will be July 1st.  I haven't seen a date for NJ to remove the mask mandate (NY did yesterday) but I think that's the next local hurdle.  Otherwise... things seem almost 100% back to normal here.  Back to having traffic on my commute  >:(

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 20, 2021, 09:42:03 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 07:52:15 AM

Well, were you expecting to have a drink with the mask on?  :biggrin: And yea, I don't think bartenders gaf, they have been dealing with people maskless drinking this whole time.

Yeah, even here bartenders don't care. My good friend is a dive bar bartender in a very upscale east bay town, and she says they're pretty much taking them off as they walk in. She even loses her around 11pm.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

I mean....I still don't want to make light of the virus and all but with the successes of Texas and Florida who have been 'opened up' for a while now.....other states are following suite. I know Missouri is. The Cardinals baseball stadium will return to 100% capacity on 6/14.....the Blues are at 9k attendance (normal is 14k). All the local cities have dropped the mask mandate. I think we know it isn't 'gone'....but a ton of people are vaccinated.....kids have a 99.9% survival rate and rarely even show symptoms....I don't think you're going to be able to restrict peoples lives anymore.

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 11:51:36 AM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

I mean....I still don't want to make light of the virus and all but with the successes of Texas and Florida who have been 'opened up' for a while now.....other states are following suite. I know Missouri is. The Cardinals baseball stadium will return to 100% capacity on 6/14.....the Blues are at 9k attendance (normal is 14k). All the local cities have dropped the mask mandate. I think we know it isn't 'gone'....but a ton of people are vaccinated.....kids have a 99.9% survival rate and rarely even show symptoms....I don't think you're going to be able to restrict peoples lives anymore.

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

I agree that this doesn't mean the virus is gone, and that it is a shame this has been politicized.  But I'm not sure we'd get to this point any quicker.  I think it's a scientific and logistic miracle we are where we are.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

See I don’t disagree with that, but I think it’s worth noting that part of having a unified front was having everyone take it seriously and realize how dangerous it is.  The media has to do it’s part to spread that message and I wouldn’t call that fear mongering but civic duty really. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 20, 2021, 12:14:05 PM

I can't remember the numbers, but I saw some that showed the US media was far more negative about COVID than media in other countries all over the world in regards to COVID in the last year.  It was nothing but gloom and doom from our media, like the world was coming to an end.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 20, 2021, 12:15:24 PM

There was definitely fear mongering from the media IMO

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:24:40 PM

and I’m not saying there wasn’t any,  just that the media’s role was still to make us understand the stakes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

See I don’t disagree with that, but I think it’s worth noting that part of having a unified front was having everyone take it seriously and realize how dangerous it is.  The media has to do it’s part to spread that message and I wouldn’t call that fear mongering but civic duty really.

Ehh...I certainly don't want to argue with you about the media. I get that the media has to do it's part. But when your 'Corona Death Ticker' disappears from your continual timeline scroll the day after Biden is sworn in and you spend a year pimping only the scariest...most random death stories associated with the virus....I can't get onboard with they were just spreading the message.

They exploited the heck out of it for ratings and they knew fear and death would get them the big numbers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:51:20 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:38:58 PM

They exploited the heck out of it for ratings and they knew fear and death would get them the big numbers.

So they treated it like every other story for the last several decades?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:53:45 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

See I don’t disagree with that, but I think it’s worth noting that part of having a unified front was having everyone take it seriously and realize how dangerous it is.  The media has to do it’s part to spread that message and I wouldn’t call that fear mongering but civic duty really.

Ehh...I certainly don't want to argue with you about the media. I get that the media has to do it's part. But when your 'Corona Death Ticker' disappears from your continual timeline scroll the day after Biden is sworn in and you spend a year pimping only the scariest...most random death stories associated with the virus....I can't get onboard with they were just spreading the message.

They exploited the heck out of it for ratings and they knew fear and death would get them the big numbers.

again I agree there was fear mongering, but part of the reason there wasn’t a unified front was that not enough people took it seriously.  So there’s a line here somewhere and they definitely went over it but where that line was supposed to be… I don’t know. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:55:14 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:51:20 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:38:58 PM

They exploited the heck out of it for ratings and they knew fear and death would get them the big numbers.

So they treated it like every other story for the last several decades?

Pretty much. Failure on all fronts from leadership to national media. Should have dropped the BS for a bit to responsibly tackle the pandemic. I know that’s asking too much

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:57:48 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:55:14 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:51:20 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:38:58 PM

They exploited the heck out of it for ratings and they knew fear and death would get them the big numbers.

So they treated it like every other story for the last several decades?

Pretty much. Failure on all fronts from leadership to national media. Should have dropped the BS for a bit to responsibly tackle the pandemic. I know that’s asking too much

Silly goose.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on May 20, 2021, 01:06:13 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:57:48 PM

Silly goose.

Yes I do feel silly now  ;)

Silly for not taking a vaccine, no not the covid of which I got the first so far.
Silly for not taking the Shigles vaccine, oh well hopefully I got it diagnozed quickly enough that the antivirals will help.

Had I taken that vaccine I would not have to worry (not too much).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 20, 2021, 02:02:53 PM

They just announced this week that all Covid-19 restrictions will be lifted in MA starting on May 29th  :hat

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 20, 2021, 02:18:40 PM

I'm so happy that the vaccines to seem to have really delivered.

I'm feeling legit anxiety, and dread, and severe depression about having to return to the office. I feel like a complete dick complaining about such a thing given people have worked throughout all of this, but I can't help it. Returning is a reality now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 02:24:24 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 20, 2021, 02:18:40 PM

I'm so happy that the vaccines to seem to have really delivered.

I'm feeling legit anxiety, and dread, and severe depression about having to return to the office. I feel like a complete dick complaining about such a thing given people have worked throughout all of this, but I can't help it. Returning is a reality now.

I read that there will be ‘ re-entry anxiety’ for a lot of people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 20, 2021, 02:31:07 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 02:24:24 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 20, 2021, 02:18:40 PM

I'm so happy that the vaccines to seem to have really delivered.

I'm feeling legit anxiety, and dread, and severe depression about having to return to the office. I feel like a complete dick complaining about such a thing given people have worked throughout all of this, but I can't help it. Returning is a reality now.

I read that there will be ‘ re-entry anxiety’ for a lot of people.

I have no qualms with going back into the office because of health concerns, which I think is the anxiety a lot are feeling. I'd feel perfectly safe. I just think about the 2+ hours of sun-facing traffic I get to sit in each day again, and losing the $4K a year I'm currently saving in fuel and parking garage fees. I know this is a good problem to have, but the last time these people saw me was 85lbs ago. I'm really, really not looking forward to having basically everyone make a comment about it at some point. I don't like being center of attention, and it's a very personal thing, and everyone is going to ask about/comment on it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 02:41:29 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:24:40 PM

and I’m not saying there wasn’t any,  just that the media’s role was still to make us understand the stakes.

And they failed at that. In looking at the relative results in Florida and Texas - widely ridiculed by many, including the media, who sought to politicize this issue - they were ineffective.  They could have educated us rather than lecture. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 02:49:01 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:53:45 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

See I don’t disagree with that, but I think it’s worth noting that part of having a unified front was having everyone take it seriously and realize how dangerous it is.  The media has to do it’s part to spread that message and I wouldn’t call that fear mongering but civic duty really.

Ehh...I certainly don't want to argue with you about the media. I get that the media has to do it's part. But when your 'Corona Death Ticker' disappears from your continual timeline scroll the day after Biden is sworn in and you spend a year pimping only the scariest...most random death stories associated with the virus....I can't get onboard with they were just spreading the message.

They exploited the heck out of it for ratings and they knew fear and death would get them the big numbers.

again I agree there was fear mongering, but part of the reason there wasn’t a unified front was that not enough people took it seriously.  So there’s a line here somewhere and they definitely went over it but where that line was supposed to be… I don’t know.

On what standard do you say "people didn't take it seriously"?   I'm struggling with this.  I think anyone looking at this from a purely non-partisan standpoint has to conclude that some of the perceived "right answers" weren't as conclusively "right" as many think.  Certain jurisdictions in Florida literally BANNED masks from public places for a period - to intense ridicule - and yet, on a state-by-state basis, their numbers were decidedly average (meaning, not nearly as bad as some states, like mine, who supposedly did "everything right").

I actually think that part of the reason there wasn't more unity was at least in part due to the fear-mongering.  It was so patently calculated to drive a reaction, as opposed to actually drive good behavior, that it backfired and cultivated distrust among the very people they were supposedly trying to reach.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2021, 04:09:41 PM

Feels great to be turning the corner!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 04:18:32 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 20, 2021, 02:31:07 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 02:24:24 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 20, 2021, 02:18:40 PM

I'm so happy that the vaccines to seem to have really delivered.

I'm feeling legit anxiety, and dread, and severe depression about having to return to the office. I feel like a complete dick complaining about such a thing given people have worked throughout all of this, but I can't help it. Returning is a reality now.

I read that there will be ‘ re-entry anxiety’ for a lot of people.

I have no qualms with going back into the office because of health concerns, which I think is the anxiety a lot are feeling. I'd feel perfectly safe. I just think about the 2+ hours of sun-facing traffic I get to sit in each day again, and losing the $4K a year I'm currently saving in fuel and parking garage fees. I know this is a good problem to have, but the last time these people saw me was 85lbs ago. I'm really, really not looking forward to having basically everyone make a comment about it at some point. I don't like being center of attention, and it's a very personal thing, and everyone is going to ask about/comment on it.

Gotcha. That’s a while different aspect of it all as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 04:54:11 PM

That's where I am as well.  I don't want to go back to the office because I don't miss the commute or the hassle, or the 1.5 hours a day spent in my car.  I'd rather keep working from home.  But our director is trying to get everyone back into the office because he believes that sharing the same space helps promote collaboration and cooperation blah blah blah.  I'm a programmer.  I don't want to collaborate.  I don't even want to see my coworkers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 20, 2021, 06:04:19 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 02:41:29 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:24:40 PM

and I’m not saying there wasn’t any,  just that the media’s role was still to make us understand the stakes.

And they failed at that. In looking at the relative results in Florida and Texas - widely ridiculed by many, including the media, who sought to politicize this issue - they were ineffective.  They could have educated us rather than lecture.

Biden called them and their mask mandate lifting..."Neanderthal Thinking".... ::)

Quote from: Stadler on May 20, 2021, 02:49:01 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:53:45 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

See I don’t disagree with that, but I think it’s worth noting that part of having a unified front was having everyone take it seriously and realize how dangerous it is.  The media has to do it’s part to spread that message and I wouldn’t call that fear mongering but civic duty really.

Ehh...I certainly don't want to argue with you about the media. I get that the media has to do it's part. But when your 'Corona Death Ticker' disappears from your continual timeline scroll the day after Biden is sworn in and you spend a year pimping only the scariest...most random death stories associated with the virus....I can't get onboard with they were just spreading the message.

They exploited the heck out of it for ratings and they knew fear and death would get them the big numbers.

again I agree there was fear mongering, but part of the reason there wasn’t a unified front was that not enough people took it seriously.  So there’s a line here somewhere and they definitely went over it but where that line was supposed to be… I don’t know.

On what standard do you say "people didn't take it seriously"?   I'm struggling with this.  I think anyone looking at this from a purely non-partisan standpoint has to conclude that some of the perceived "right answers" weren't as conclusively "right" as many think.  Certain jurisdictions in Florida literally BANNED masks from public places for a period - to intense ridicule - and yet, on a state-by-state basis, their numbers were decidedly average (meaning, not nearly as bad as some states, like mine, who supposedly did "everything right").

I actually think that part of the reason there wasn't more unity was at least in part due to the fear-mongering.  It was so patently calculated to drive a reaction, as opposed to actually drive good behavior, that it backfired and cultivated distrust among the very people they were supposedly trying to reach.

Precisely and it just fell apart and blew up in their faces. Hence, where we are currently.

I'm more amazed at the fear that they have instilled onto people, that these people now have a thing called "re-entry anxiety".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 20, 2021, 06:17:17 PM

god forbid anyone has trauma from global pandemic

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 20, 2021, 06:33:37 PM

OK, I'm reading the last page or so with regard to the media.

Didn't a lot of people die?
Didn't the hospitals overflow? The morgues?
Didn't the bring in refrigerated trucks to NYC for the bodies?
Were these things made up by the media?

I tend to ignore whatever CNN or FOX reports, but I watched a lot of my local news, and everything they reported seemed legit. They quoted the President, the Governor, the CDC, Fauci, etc...the major players.



I will say that one thing the cable news networks did that bugged me were the running case and death totals, like this was some sort of telethon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 07:38:09 PM

TAC, if you're saying that "fearmongering" is too strong a word for what the media was doing in the past year or so, I agree.  I don't think they were trying to spread fear and panic; to me it was more like they were trying their damnedest to get people to take it seriously, because a lot of people were dying and hospitals were overflowing.  And it still only had limited effect, because people are stupid.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 21, 2021, 04:43:02 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on May 20, 2021, 01:06:13 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:57:48 PM

Silly goose.

Yes I do feel silly now  ;)

Silly for not taking a vaccine, no not the covid of which I got the first so far.
Silly for not taking the Shigles vaccine, oh well hopefully I got it diagnozed quickly enough that the antivirals will help.

Had I taken that vaccine I would not have to worry (not too much).

Hot damn man.  I had an old colleague contract that, and he said it was the worst and most painful experience of his life.  Once we can, both mrs.jingle and I will be getting that vaccine too.  Hope you have a not-terrible experience with it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on May 21, 2021, 06:24:49 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 20, 2021, 06:33:37 PM

OK, I'm reading the last page or so with regard to the media.

Didn't a lot of people die?
Didn't the hospitals overflow? The morgues?
Didn't the bring in refrigerated trucks to NYC for the bodies?

There was a lot of doubt about the ability to create a vaccine when these predictions were made.  The fact we've had the vaccines created, tested and rolled out so quickly is absolutely incredible.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 21, 2021, 06:46:28 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 21, 2021, 04:43:02 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on May 20, 2021, 01:06:13 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:57:48 PM

Silly goose.

Yes I do feel silly now  ;)

Silly for not taking a vaccine, no not the covid of which I got the first so far.
Silly for not taking the Shigles vaccine, oh well hopefully I got it diagnozed quickly enough that the antivirals will help.

Had I taken that vaccine I would not have to worry (not too much).

Hot damn man.  I had an old colleague contract that, and he said it was the worst and most painful experience of his life.  Once we can, both mrs.jingle and I will be getting that vaccine too.  Hope you have a not-terrible experience with it.

I actually think since I never had chicken pox, that I can't get shingles yet. Right.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:44:01 AM

Quote from: TAC on May 20, 2021, 06:33:37 PM

OK, I'm reading the last page or so with regard to the media.

Didn't a lot of people die?
Didn't the hospitals overflow? The morgues?
Didn't the bring in refrigerated trucks to NYC for the bodies?
Were these things made up by the media?

I tend to ignore whatever CNN or FOX reports, but I watched a lot of my local news, and everything they reported seemed legit. They quoted the President, the Governor, the CDC, Fauci, etc...the major players.



I will say that one thing the cable news networks did that bugged me were the running case and death totals, like this was some sort of telethon.

That was a constant here in the Hartford area.  We have four local stations:  Fox61 (Hartford), CBS3 (Hartford), NBC30 (West Hartford) and ABC8 (New Haven).  I switch between Fox61 and NBC30, almost exclusively because Fox61 has the lovely Erica Arias, and because I like the weather people (Rachel Frank on Fox, Ryan Hanrahan on NBC).  I can't tell you how many times I heard a bumper - the ad for the upcoming broadcast - lead with "New information today on the fight against COVID", then we'd get to the broadcast and either Ben Goldman (Fox61, and who is very good) or Kevin Nolan (NBC30, and who is a douche) started with "New information today in the fight against COVID-19:  <somber voice> x new deaths, and more than y new infections."  Maybe I'll give you that "fear mongering" is a shade heavy terminology, but it was less about educating than it was about establishing the appropriate gravitas and hooking eye-balls.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:48:04 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 07:38:09 PM

TAC, if you're saying that "fearmongering" is too strong a word for what the media was doing in the past year or so, I agree.  I don't think they were trying to spread fear and panic; to me it was more like they were trying their damnedest to get people to take it seriously, because a lot of people were dying and hospitals were overflowing.  And it still only had limited effect, because people are stupid.

Any chance we can stop with the default to "stupid"?    I'm anything but stupid, and that constant assault on the senses was tuned out by me; I am an educated, informed man, and COVID (in part; some of it was the same tactic in the political arena) "forced" me to stop watching cable news entirely - ANY station - and to curb my local news intake.   Again, not because I'm STUPID, but because I saw through the tactic.  I didn't need my local station hammering me with negativity in order to do what I felt was - or was not - right.   It didn't EDUCATE me, it DEPRESSED me more in an already unhealthy psychological environment.

I don't say this to Orbert, I say it generally: just because someone disagrees with us DOES NOT MAKE THEM STUPID.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:49:57 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 21, 2021, 04:43:02 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on May 20, 2021, 01:06:13 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:57:48 PM

Silly goose.

Yes I do feel silly now  ;)

Silly for not taking a vaccine, no not the covid of which I got the first so far.
Silly for not taking the Shigles vaccine, oh well hopefully I got it diagnozed quickly enough that the antivirals will help.

Had I taken that vaccine I would not have to worry (not too much).

Hot damn man.  I had an old colleague contract that, and he said it was the worst and most painful experience of his life.  Once we can, both mrs.jingle and I will be getting that vaccine too.  Hope you have a not-terrible experience with it.

I know two people that had it.  One, my dad, is handicapped and has lived in almost constant pain since he was 35.  He's had something like 20 surgeries for various things, and has beaten cancer twice, and he STILL says "shingles" was the one thing he wouldn't like to go through again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on May 21, 2021, 08:41:03 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:49:57 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 21, 2021, 04:43:02 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on May 20, 2021, 01:06:13 PM

Quote from: Adami on May 20, 2021, 12:57:48 PM

Silly goose.

Yes I do feel silly now  ;)

Silly for not taking a vaccine, no not the covid of which I got the first so far.
Silly for not taking the Shigles vaccine, oh well hopefully I got it diagnozed quickly enough that the antivirals will help.

Had I taken that vaccine I would not have to worry (not too much).

Hot damn man.  I had an old colleague contract that, and he said it was the worst and most painful experience of his life.  Once we can, both mrs.jingle and I will be getting that vaccine too.  Hope you have a not-terrible experience with it.

I know two people that had it.  One, my dad, is handicapped and has lived in almost constant pain since he was 35.  He's had something like 20 surgeries for various things, and has beaten cancer twice, and he STILL says "shingles" was the one thing he wouldn't like to go through again.

Oh, oh..... I do hope the antivirals do their job now (worry heigthened)

One thing I do worry a bit about is the antivirals lessening the effect of the Pfizer shot I got just over two weeks ago. I mean, it has not reached it's full potential yet.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2021, 10:16:10 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 04:54:11 PM

That's where I am as well.  I don't want to go back to the office because I don't miss the commute or the hassle, or the 1.5 hours a day spent in my car.  I'd rather keep working from home.  But our director is trying to get everyone back into the office because he believes that sharing the same space helps promote collaboration and cooperation blah blah blah.  I'm a programmer.  I don't want to collaborate.  I don't even want to see my coworkers.

That's about where I am too.  All my work is done on computer.  No need to go back to the office.  I collaborate just fine virtually.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 10:41:59 AM

I think it's like anything else in business; you'll see patterns and cycles.  We'll get those managers who have struggled through market difficulties looking for an advantage, and if that means pulling people back in, so be it. 

I know for me - in a legal capacity - it will be easy for corporations with in-house counsel to maintain remote working.  Someone somewhere, though, is going to be desperate for a solution or an answer, and will demand an in-person meeting/conference/whatever, and if it's successful, we'll start to see more and more people relying on that approach.

At the end of the day, though, like ANYTHING in business, whether the "one employee" works well at home is only one aspect of the equation.  It's also down to the "one employee" that CAN'T work well at home, or the "manager" who does or does not have the maturity and/or leadership skills to manage a diverse (in locale) workforce. 

I feel for you, Chino; I hope you get the decision you like (sincerely).  I think it's very hard to predict.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 21, 2021, 10:44:49 AM

Quote from: SwedishGoose on May 21, 2021, 08:41:03 AM

One thing I do worry a bit about is the antivirals lessening the effect of the Pfizer shot I got just over two weeks ago. I mean, it has not reached it's full potential yet.

The vast majority of antivirals are targeted, so I doubt they will interfere with the Covid immune response all that much.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Orbert on May 21, 2021, 10:44:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:48:04 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 07:38:09 PM

TAC, if you're saying that "fearmongering" is too strong a word for what the media was doing in the past year or so, I agree.  I don't think they were trying to spread fear and panic; to me it was more like they were trying their damnedest to get people to take it seriously, because a lot of people were dying and hospitals were overflowing.  And it still only had limited effect, because people are stupid.

Any chance we can stop with the default to "stupid"?    I'm anything but stupid, and that constant assault on the senses was tuned out by me; I am an educated, informed man, and COVID (in part; some of it was the same tactic in the political arena) "forced" me to stop watching cable news entirely - ANY station - and to curb my local news intake.   Again, not because I'm STUPID, but because I saw through the tactic.  I didn't need my local station hammering me with negativity in order to do what I felt was - or was not - right.   It didn't EDUCATE me, it DEPRESSED me more in an already unhealthy psychological environment.

I don't say this to Orbert, I say it generally: just because someone disagrees with us DOES NOT MAKE THEM STUPID.   

I'm not talking about people disagreeing, I'm talking about people who just don't get it.  When thousands of people are dying, that's not a matter of opinion; that is a fact.  You might or might not believe it, but it's not something you "agree with" or "disagree with".

And I'm sorry, but if thousands of people around the world are dying of a confirmed medical issue and people can still sit there and claim that it's all a hoax orchestrated by the Democrats to make our (former) president look bad, that's not an opinion.  Those people are fucking stupid and I will call them that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 21, 2021, 10:51:54 AM

I've had shingles when I was around 7 or 8, on my chest by my heart area and the same place on my back. To this day, those spots are numb, I can scratch them and won't feel anything, just my fingers feel the skin but my body doesn't feel my fingers. It does feel them there, but the sensation you get when you do touch your fingers to skin is gone in those areas.

Those things sucked hard. Those blisters would pop, and when I was sleeping, I had to try and sleep on my side. I mainly had them on my chest, so it wasn't too bad to lay on my back. I slept with my chest exposed because any cool air helps a lot. But when those things busted or swelled, it would really really hurt. My mother has told me, she has never seen me cry as hard as when I had Shingles.

Both my aunties had them too, on their face. So, I knew their pain, and how it would feel on their heads.

In the end, I still survived, and now just have slight numbness on those areas, even some scars. But that is all.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 11:03:21 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 21, 2021, 10:44:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:48:04 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 07:38:09 PM

TAC, if you're saying that "fearmongering" is too strong a word for what the media was doing in the past year or so, I agree.  I don't think they were trying to spread fear and panic; to me it was more like they were trying their damnedest to get people to take it seriously, because a lot of people were dying and hospitals were overflowing.  And it still only had limited effect, because people are stupid.

Any chance we can stop with the default to "stupid"?    I'm anything but stupid, and that constant assault on the senses was tuned out by me; I am an educated, informed man, and COVID (in part; some of it was the same tactic in the political arena) "forced" me to stop watching cable news entirely - ANY station - and to curb my local news intake.   Again, not because I'm STUPID, but because I saw through the tactic.  I didn't need my local station hammering me with negativity in order to do what I felt was - or was not - right.   It didn't EDUCATE me, it DEPRESSED me more in an already unhealthy psychological environment.

I don't say this to Orbert, I say it generally: just because someone disagrees with us DOES NOT MAKE THEM STUPID.   

I'm not talking about people disagreeing, I'm talking about people who just don't get it.  When thousands of people are dying, that's not a matter of opinion; that is a fact.  You might or might not believe it, but it's not something you "agree with" or "disagree with".

And I'm sorry, but if thousands of people around the world are dying of a confirmed medical issue and people can still sit there and claim that it's all a hoax orchestrated by the Democrats to make our (former) president look bad, that's not an opinion.  Those people are fucking stupid and I will call them that.

Fair enough, if there are 10 or 100 or 1000 people that believe it's a "hoax" so be it, they're dumb. I've got no beef with that, and I probably agree more or less.  Your first post doesn't make that distinction, though, and I know a LOT more people - by orders of magnitude - that don't believe it's a "hoax" but think that the coverage is oppressive, and some of the measures are oppressive.  Even Fauci - who I like, admire, and listen to - has said that the message hasn't been COMPLETELY about hard medical fact.   If someone is placed at a different point on the risk management spectrum, that's not "stupidity".   That's the only point I'm trying to make (and it applies across multiple threads/discussions here and elsewhere).

EDIT:  The recent exchanges from Ptaki and the White House feed right into this (even if they are better addressed in the P/R forum).  For all the flak that Trump received for his "racism" over "Kung Flu" and "Chinese Virus" - rightfully, mind you; he never should have said any of that - he was also given flak for his lack of truth.  But now, the Biden Administration is backing off of saying that the ORIGINS - and the reasons for that origination - may still be an open question.   So while "hoax" has a specific meaning (a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth) the question remains as to WHO fabricated that masquerade and what is the actual masquerade?   Do I - Stadler - think COVID was "made up" and this was the flu?  Absolutely not.   My kid had it, my cousin is an ER nurse and has literally worked 80 to 100 hours a week most weeks since last April.  It's real.   But I also think that we haven't gotten full transparency from the Chinese government and whether it's in the interest of preventing future disasters or in the interest of geopolitical leverages or simply in the day-to-day threat assessment that people at Biden's level do with regards to their country and their citizens.  If someone asked me "is this a hoax?" I'd have to think twice as to what that means and how that gets answered.   And I'm no idiot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 21, 2021, 11:06:38 AM

Just heard, for the first time in a year, there are zero covid patients in San Francisco General Hospital.  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 11:10:17 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 21, 2021, 11:06:38 AM

Just heard, for the first time in a year, there are zero covid patients in San Francisco General Hospital.  :metal

That's an amazing stat (in a good way).  Fingers crossed! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: SwedishGoose on May 21, 2021, 11:24:11 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 21, 2021, 11:06:38 AM

Just heard, for the first time in a year, there are zero covid patients in San Francisco General Hospital.  :metal

Wow.... that is amazing. Numbers are going down in Sweden but still too high.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 21, 2021, 11:39:09 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 21, 2021, 10:44:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:48:04 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 07:38:09 PM

TAC, if you're saying that "fearmongering" is too strong a word for what the media was doing in the past year or so, I agree.  I don't think they were trying to spread fear and panic; to me it was more like they were trying their damnedest to get people to take it seriously, because a lot of people were dying and hospitals were overflowing.  And it still only had limited effect, because people are stupid.

Any chance we can stop with the default to "stupid"?    I'm anything but stupid, and that constant assault on the senses was tuned out by me; I am an educated, informed man, and COVID (in part; some of it was the same tactic in the political arena) "forced" me to stop watching cable news entirely - ANY station - and to curb my local news intake.   Again, not because I'm STUPID, but because I saw through the tactic.  I didn't need my local station hammering me with negativity in order to do what I felt was - or was not - right.   It didn't EDUCATE me, it DEPRESSED me more in an already unhealthy psychological environment.

I don't say this to Orbert, I say it generally: just because someone disagrees with us DOES NOT MAKE THEM STUPID.   

I'm not talking about people disagreeing, I'm talking about people who just don't get it.  When thousands of people are dying, that's not a matter of opinion; that is a fact.  You might or might not believe it, but it's not something you "agree with" or "disagree with".

And I'm sorry, but if thousands of people around the world are dying of a confirmed medical issue and people can still sit there and claim that it's all a hoax orchestrated by the Democrats to make our (former) president look bad, that's not an opinion.  Those people are fucking stupid and I will call them that.

There's lots of reasons for why people are uninformed or stupid. To me, rather than whining, laughing, or blaming the stupid people. Why not inform these people, and figure out a way to help them understand. But, there's not much you can do when peoples Belief, Faith, and Trust, are essential to their thought process and their decision making. Sometimes, you have to literally take the person there to see it for themselves, and experience it for themselves, for them to understand or change their perception.


I do not go to media to be educated and told what to do. I go to the media to find out what is happening in the world. The reporter could say anything they want, but what should only matter is what is happening. This is where media can turn into propaganda. And why I go out of my way to look at other sites, or other sources, because of the possibility of the article or story itself being propaganda, and used for a specific purpose or narrative. There are keywords, specific tones, phrases, and especially heartstring pulling, they use to attract people to their specific narrative and story. People buy into their marketing of their product.

With the invention of the internet, the spider web was woven that helped connect the world. The world was never as connected before the internet. Social Media, was the biggest thread for this connection of the world. Which has allowed us to virtually talk and see the person that is across the ocean, in a place we don't know anything about. We are learning more about each other, and are seeing that we are one in the same, just a different color and with different ways to do things, but in the end we are alike.

This connection has put lots of beliefs, truths, and faiths, to the test. As many of these different, truths, beliefs, and faiths, are now mixed in a melting pot of diversity.

And people are now making their own videos, and showing the world their perspective of their life. It's literally a walking diary into these people and their lives. There are people whom are streaming live from these events, and people are watching them rather than the News Media. And a lot of people are realizing that these "trusted media" sources are not so trusting at all, and that these people on the ground are reporting something entirely different than what the "Trusted Media" is saying to the masses.

Younger folk are getting their news and information from these sources, while the older are still getting their news from the "Trusted Media" sources. This is where we are with the current trust, belief, and faith issues we are having that gave birth to the term 'Fake News'.

And if no community is watching these sources, do they even know that there is a pandemic happening?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 21, 2021, 01:54:29 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 20, 2021, 06:33:37 PM

OK, I'm reading the last page or so with regard to the media.

Didn't a lot of people die?
Didn't the hospitals overflow? The morgues?
Didn't the bring in refrigerated trucks to NYC for the bodies?
Were these things made up by the media?

I tend to ignore whatever CNN or FOX reports, but I watched a lot of my local news, and everything they reported seemed legit. They quoted the President, the Governor, the CDC, Fauci, etc...the major players.



I will say that one thing the cable news networks did that bugged me were the running case and death totals, like this was some sort of telethon.

Uh, just FYI, but CNN is pretty close to down the middle in terms of bias.  Fox news is an entirely different animal.    No comparison


Don't take my word for it, there's a chart here, you'll see the difference between CNN and Fox, they're not even close in terms of bias.


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-biased-is-your-news-source-you-probably-wont-agree-with-this-chart-2018-02-28

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 21, 2021, 01:58:33 PM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 21, 2021, 11:39:09 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 21, 2021, 10:44:58 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 07:48:04 AM

Quote from: Orbert on May 20, 2021, 07:38:09 PM

TAC, if you're saying that "fearmongering" is too strong a word for what the media was doing in the past year or so, I agree.  I don't think they were trying to spread fear and panic; to me it was more like they were trying their damnedest to get people to take it seriously, because a lot of people were dying and hospitals were overflowing.  And it still only had limited effect, because people are stupid.

Any chance we can stop with the default to "stupid"?    I'm anything but stupid, and that constant assault on the senses was tuned out by me; I am an educated, informed man, and COVID (in part; some of it was the same tactic in the political arena) "forced" me to stop watching cable news entirely - ANY station - and to curb my local news intake.   Again, not because I'm STUPID, but because I saw through the tactic.  I didn't need my local station hammering me with negativity in order to do what I felt was - or was not - right.   It didn't EDUCATE me, it DEPRESSED me more in an already unhealthy psychological environment.

I don't say this to Orbert, I say it generally: just because someone disagrees with us DOES NOT MAKE THEM STUPID.   

I'm not talking about people disagreeing, I'm talking about people who just don't get it.  When thousands of people are dying, that's not a matter of opinion; that is a fact.  You might or might not believe it, but it's not something you "agree with" or "disagree with".

And I'm sorry, but if thousands of people around the world are dying of a confirmed medical issue and people can still sit there and claim that it's all a hoax orchestrated by the Democrats to make our (former) president look bad, that's not an opinion.  Those people are fucking stupid and I will call them that.

There's lots of reasons for why people are uninformed or stupid. To me, rather than whining, laughing, or blaming the stupid people. Why not inform these people, and figure out a way to help them understand.

Because they're not interested in the truth. 


Let's be clear about what's going on in the country right now.  You have one political party that lives in a world of "alternative facts" and completely made-up lies about an election their guy lost.  That's not the Democrats acting this way.  It's the Republicans. 


They won't even allow a bi-partisan commission to get to the bottom of what happened on January 6th because they know it will expose their culpability in what happened. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 21, 2021, 01:59:26 PM

That article is 3 years old. CNN has gone off the rails the last few years.  Not saying they are as bad or biased as Fox, but they are well on their way to catching up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 21, 2021, 02:00:01 PM

No they haven't  :rollin

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 21, 2021, 02:01:02 PM

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/ (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/) <-- from 2021


CNN "Skews Left"


That's not even close to what Fox news does

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 21, 2021, 02:10:31 PM

This is general discussion. Don't make me tap the sign chaps. ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 21, 2021, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 21, 2021, 02:10:31 PM

This is general discussion. Don't make me tap the sign chaps. ;)

Haha, all good. Pointless discussion anyway.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 21, 2021, 02:18:13 PM

California to fully open June 15th, according to Gov. Batman. (if you ever hear him talk you'd know why he's referred as that lol)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 21, 2021, 02:10:31 PM

This is general discussion. Don't make me tap the sign chaps. ;)

Respecting XJ and the topic of the thread, for anyone that cares there are about five or six links I've posted in the Media thread in P/R over the years that refutes that one source, and the corresponding opinion.  We're all, of course, entitled to our opinions and our biases, but they should be taken as such.  If anyone can't find those links, I'll try (again) to collect them and repost them.

(Hint:  don't confuse Sean Hannity - opinion-tainment, not news - with the NEWS arm of Fox News, like that source does. There are also differences between the on-air and on-line versions of both outlets.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 21, 2021, 02:55:37 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 21, 2021, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: XJDenton on May 21, 2021, 02:10:31 PM

This is general discussion. Don't make me tap the sign chaps. ;)

Respecting XJ and the topic of the thread, for anyone that cares there are about five or six links I've posted in the Media thread in P/R over the years that refutes that one source, and the corresponding opinion.  We're all, of course, entitled to our opinions and our biases, but they should be taken as such.  If anyone can't find those links, I'll try (again) to collect them and repost them.

(Hint:  don't confuse Sean Hannity - opinion-tainment, not news - with the NEWS arm of Fox News, like that source does. There are also differences between the on-air and on-line versions of both outlets.)

Or Don Lemon.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 21, 2021, 10:06:51 PM

I'm so tired of the stupidity and criticism of these vaccines.  Take them, don't take them, whatever.  But stop trying to discredit them somehow.  A whole bunch of people with MD's and PhD's created them and they know a hell of a lot more than someone that takes medical advice from Jenny McCarthy.

It's really sad when my kids' pediatrician's office has to put this infographic out and debunk a bunch of stuff to try and tell parents that it's safe and tested and effective.  And it's honestly good advice for adults to read this as well.

(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/189660250_1813287475512800_552869027451473574_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=73PRgYkXFywAX-yXi46&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=79ee35a898b4d74e33eca1aa1008100e&oe=60CE2D1A)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 21, 2021, 10:29:16 PM

That also says they do not know the long term effects of the mRNA Covid-19 Vaccines....However....They do not expect long term side effects. But also, it doesn't mean they won't happen, unexpected things have happened in life before. This is all based on their CURRENT knowledge of mRNA and the Human Body. This knowledge can definitely change as time passes and they actually know for sure, if there are no long term effects.

That is why some people still do not want to take it. Because we DO NOT know, FOR SURE, if these vaccines DO NOT cause long term side effects. And we will not know until more time passes. That's the experimental part of this. Because Life has thrown many unexpected things at us.

The CDC says those whom are vaccinated won't have a severe case of Covid-19, meaning if they catch it, their symptoms will more than likely be asymptomatic symptoms, and don't need to mask up, yet those people still do. It's nothing to do with science, and more to do with fear and the need and desire for safety. If you got the vaccine you should be fine, even those who were/are susceptible to this virus, whom were the ones who should have gotten the vaccine.

How we DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE these vaccines don't cause long term side effects isn't a criticism. It's a rightful concern, because that infographic says exactly this, "we do not know".

Eric Clapton has been vocal (https://youtu.be/Trstysfnfwc) about how he had some nerve issues after taking the vaccine, enough for him to be concerned enough about it to where he thought he wouldn't be able to play anymore. My friend, had problems with her eye twitching and sudden nerve pain, those went away, but she still has some twitches and some pains still.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on May 22, 2021, 01:25:07 AM

Clapton has been talking anti mask/lockdown stuff for months, Often promoting dumb YouTube videos.  Now he claims he had a 6 week negative reaction to the vaccine (of which he never reported at the time).  So basically we have his word for it (a man with a history or racism and abusing his wife might I add) and he clearly has an agenda....

My friend took the vaccine and she now has the uncanny ability to predict things.  Yesterday I turned over a pack of cards and she correctly got 31 ouuta 54 correct!!  Oddly she got nearly all the red suits correct, and barely any of the black.

My Dad told me since the second Vaccine my Mum now speaks fluent German in her sleep, and also hovers slightly above the bed when this happens.

There is a lady down the road from us who owns 3 cats, after she came home from getting the second Vaccine she fussed them all and next morning all 3 were pregnant....even the male one!!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 22, 2021, 04:58:18 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 21, 2021, 10:06:51 PM

I'm so tired of the stupidity and criticism of these vaccines.  Take them, don't take them, whatever.  But stop trying to discredit them somehow.  A whole bunch of people with MD's and PhD's created them and they know a hell of a lot more than someone that takes medical advice from Jenny McCarthy.

Or Eric Clapton apparently.

Only two things in life are certain... death and taxes.  This whole "we don't know" argument is absolute BS (imo) too.  We don't know what we don't know.  Get over it.  Let's address what we DO know - and that's vaccines are reducing illness and death in a multitude of scenarios.  Conversely, lack of vaccines is rapidly increasing illness and death in others (India, Brazil, and until we got our vaccine supply and distribution under control, Canada).  Every argument against vaccines is purely opinion and anecdotal.  There are equal amounts of opinions and anecdotal data points *for* vaccines, coupled with actual scientific research, proof and evidence.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 22, 2021, 07:39:13 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on May 22, 2021, 01:25:07 AM

Clapton has been talking anti mask/lockdown stuff for months, Often promoting dumb YouTube videos.  Now he claims he had a 6 week negative reaction to the vaccine (of which he never reported at the time).  So basically we have his word for it (a man with a history or racism and abusing his wife might I add) and he clearly has an agenda....

My friend took the vaccine and she now has the uncanny ability to predict things.  Yesterday I turned over a pack of cards and she correctly got 31 ouuta 54 correct!!  Oddly she got nearly all the red suits correct, and barely any of the black.

My Dad told me since the second Vaccine my Mum now speaks fluent German in her sleep, and also hovers slightly above the bed when this happens.

There is a lady down the road from us who owns 3 cats, after she came home from getting the second Vaccine she fussed them all and next morning all 3 were pregnant....even the male one!!!

^^^^^^^^^^
 :lol - I got a kick out of that.

All I have to say about the "we don't know" argument is - DUH! But we DO have an abundance of information with new data coming in everyday. It's important to know that there is no COVID in the vaccine and it teaches your body how to fight the disease and then it leaves your body. It's highly unlikely there will be long term effects from the vaccine but we will know more as time passes.

BTW - I just want to ask these people that question the speed of which the vaccine was made or any other criticism, 'since when did you become an expert'?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 22, 2021, 08:30:52 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 22, 2021, 04:58:18 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 21, 2021, 10:06:51 PM

I'm so tired of the stupidity and criticism of these vaccines.  Take them, don't take them, whatever.  But stop trying to discredit them somehow.  A whole bunch of people with MD's and PhD's created them and they know a hell of a lot more than someone that takes medical advice from Jenny McCarthy.

Or Eric Clapton apparently.

Only two things in life are certain... death and taxes.  This whole "we don't know" argument is absolute BS (imo) too.  We don't know what we don't know.  Get over it.  Let's address what we DO know - and that's vaccines are reducing illness and death in a multitude of scenarios.  Conversely, lack of vaccines is rapidly increasing illness and death in others (India, Brazil, and until we got our vaccine supply and distribution under control, Canada).  Every argument against vaccines is purely opinion and anecdotal.  There are equal amounts of opinions and anecdotal data points *for* vaccines, coupled with actual scientific research, proof and evidence.

And vaccinated people are masking up and ignoring that scientific data. Am I calling them stupid, and making fun. No.

I am pointing out that not everyone who isn't taking the vaccine is stupid.

What this is, is trust and taking their word for it. You can choose to believe them or not. That's your decision. You can choose to believe all the people telling you about what exactly happened to them. Are they easily dismissed because they are talking about what happened to them? Apparently so.

But, also...vaccinated people have a higher rate of matching up on Cupid.com...and now you can filter the vaccinated from the non-vaccinated, but filtering by race is bad.  :lol

How's that for information and data.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 22, 2021, 08:32:26 AM

Yeah, it says they don't know the long term side effects, but then goes to list in very simple layman's terms all the reasons why they are certain there won't be any. If they actually went into the exact reasons in clinical terms, our dipshit unscientific minds wouldn't be able to understand it (except for maybe the few PHD's in the mix here). I mean, I have a smidgen of science from a very good Uni, so I can kinda grasp the concepts laid out, and see how the product is safe, but the constant speculation of why shit won't work and doubting science (when the scientific process is designed to constantly doubt itself anyways) helps fucking nobody, especially the large majority of Americans whose scientific background leads them to want food with DNA to be labeled... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/17/over-80-percent-of-americans-support-mandatory-labels-on-foods-containing-dna/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/17/over-80-percent-of-americans-support-mandatory-labels-on-foods-containing-dna/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 22, 2021, 08:56:40 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 22, 2021, 08:32:26 AM

Yeah, it says they don't know the long term side effects, but then goes to list in very simple layman's terms all the reasons why they are certain there won't be any. If they actually went into the exact reasons in clinical terms, our dipshit unscientific minds wouldn't be able to understand it (except for maybe the few PHD's in the mix here). I mean, I have a smidgen of science from a very good Uni, so I can kinda grasp the concepts laid out, and see how the product is safe, but the constant speculation of why shit won't work and doubting science (when the scientific process is designed to constantly doubt itself anyways) helps fucking nobody, especially the large majority of Americans whose scientific background leads them to want food with DNA to be labeled... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/17/over-80-percent-of-americans-support-mandatory-labels-on-foods-containing-dna/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/17/over-80-percent-of-americans-support-mandatory-labels-on-foods-containing-dna/)

I can't read that because it's behind a paywall.

So your calling the average layman person stupid and too dumb to actually comprehend and understand scientific lingo. And they are therefore lower class of people, whom can't think for themselves and need the scientific and smart minds to think for them. Because that's what it sounds like to me. 

People are not stupid. And not everyone I consider stupid. Every person has the ability to learn and understand even the most complicated of things.

Science, is just a way for us humans to better understand The World we live in. What makes dirt, dirt, and what makes us humans, these DNA and organisms that collectively make up our entire universe. It's not 100% fact. It's the information that is factual at that current time in life. But people make it out to be, and dismiss everything else as false and fake.

Ancient Civilizations had knowledge big Science and even Knowledge that people of today can't comprehend or send to understand. This is knowledge that for some reason was forgotten. We were once that connected to the Earth that we knew these things already.

Science, is starting to prove these things. Like how we react to the energy's produced by the sun, which are your solar flares and radiation. The Earths magnetic poles are not where we once thought they were. They shifted and moved. This has happened before, only the poles shifted and are now shifting back to the opposite ends. This current world we live in has magnetic poles that are switched. This is just the planet changing and evolving. Not anything to do with us humans.

People want DNA to be labelled because everything we eat does have DNA in it. These DNA molecules and genes affect our bodies in many different ways and some of those DNAs are beneficial for us and some are not. It's better to be informed than ignorant right?

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/mandatory-labels-on-foods-containing-dna-80-of-americans-support-that-011915.html

This article mentions that people whom are ignorant and gullible, are susceptible to being played and joked with for their ignorance. It goes on to say how You can easily do this by taking advantage of peoples ignorance of Scientific Terms, by making them sound bad, when it's a necessity for life. It's mind manipulation at it's finest. And it's the Smart taking advantage and preying on the ignorant "stupid" people.

And this all trickles down to our fabulous education system, because these dipshit unscientific minds are the product of Americas education factory.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 22, 2021, 11:19:45 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 22, 2021, 08:56:40 AM

And this all trickles down to our fabulous education system, because these dipshit unscientific minds are the product of Americas education factory.

Exactly my point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Adami on May 22, 2021, 11:35:09 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 22, 2021, 11:19:45 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 22, 2021, 08:56:40 AM

And this all trickles down to our fabulous education system, because these dipshit unscientific minds are the product of Americas education factory.

Exactly my point.

And the American education system is a product of American values.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 22, 2021, 11:47:15 AM

Quote from: Adami on May 22, 2021, 11:35:09 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 22, 2021, 11:19:45 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 22, 2021, 08:56:40 AM

And this all trickles down to our fabulous education system, because these dipshit unscientific minds are the product of Americas education factory.

Exactly my point.

And the American education system is a product of American values.

No argument here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2021, 03:45:08 PM

Quote from: Grappler on May 21, 2021, 10:06:51 PM

I'm so tired of the stupidity and criticism of these vaccines.  Take them, don't take them, whatever.  But stop trying to discredit them somehow.  A whole bunch of people with MD's and PhD's created them and they know a hell of a lot more than someone that takes medical advice from Jenny McCarthy.

It's really sad when my kids' pediatrician's office has to put this infographic out and debunk a bunch of stuff to try and tell parents that it's safe and tested and effective.  And it's honestly good advice for adults to read this as well.

(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/189660250_1813287475512800_552869027451473574_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=73PRgYkXFywAX-yXi46&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=79ee35a898b4d74e33eca1aa1008100e&oe=60CE2D1A)

She's still pretty freakin' hot, though. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2021, 04:21:02 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 22, 2021, 04:58:18 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 21, 2021, 10:06:51 PM

I'm so tired of the stupidity and criticism of these vaccines.  Take them, don't take them, whatever.  But stop trying to discredit them somehow.  A whole bunch of people with MD's and PhD's created them and they know a hell of a lot more than someone that takes medical advice from Jenny McCarthy.

Or Eric Clapton apparently.

Only two things in life are certain... death and taxes.  This whole "we don't know" argument is absolute BS (imo) too.  We don't know what we don't know.  Get over it.  Let's address what we DO know - and that's vaccines are reducing illness and death in a multitude of scenarios.  Conversely, lack of vaccines is rapidly increasing illness and death in others (India, Brazil, and until we got our vaccine supply and distribution under control, Canada).  Every argument against vaccines is purely opinion and anecdotal.  There are equal amounts of opinions and anecdotal data points *for* vaccines, coupled with actual scientific research, proof and evidence.

But, while I agree about the arguments, at the end of the day, we're all allowed to make our own determination what goes into our body.   People drink urine because they think it has a health effect.  Other people don't eat meat because they think all in, they are healthier for not doing so.   I don't agree with either of those, and scientific research, proof and evidence tends to support me, but I don't have a say in ANY of it as regards OTHER people.

Oh, and I'll welcome your support in the other threads when I give scientific research, proof and evidence as to the better approaches to some of the other problems facing our society - like guns, media bias and racism - and people aren't interested in hearing about it.  ;) :) :) :) :) :)   (I'm poking at you, in a friendly way.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 22, 2021, 05:57:43 PM

It's official..one more week of having to wear my mask at work!! :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: KevShmev on May 22, 2021, 06:14:26 PM

Nice! We got to stop wearing them a week ago, and it felt weird at first.  I had gotten to used so wearing it around the office that for the first few days every time I got up to the men's room, printer or kitchen, I looked to the spot on my desk where I always kept the mask, didn't see it there, and was like, "Oh yeah, things are normal again."  For a while anyway...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phoenix87x on May 22, 2021, 06:38:41 PM

Yeah, pretty much all the local businesses around me have dropped them as a requirement and hopefully my work will be doing so soon as well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: soupytwist on May 23, 2021, 01:30:51 AM

Interesting bout masks at work.  You guys all US?
Here in the UK where we have had a great vaccination program, and the new cases/people in hospital/deaths has fallen to the point of barely significant - masks in the work place are still required.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 23, 2021, 04:30:27 AM

Quote from: soupytwist on May 23, 2021, 01:30:51 AM

Interesting bout masks at work.  You guys all US?
Here in the UK where we have had a great vaccination program, and the new cases/people in hospital/deaths has fallen to the point of barely significant - masks in the work place are still required.

And here in Canada, we're still in a stay-at-home order until June 2 (at least here in Ontario), and then restrictions will be easing slowly in phased / 3-week increments.   If only the government had done this in early Feb with the B117 variant was first observed and taking hold, instead of waiting until mid-April when it was raging across the province, and choking hospitals and ICUs.  We'd be coming out of it NOW, now that over 50% of the population has at least a 1st dose.

:| :sad:

Quote from: Stadler on May 22, 2021, 04:21:02 PM

Oh, and I'll welcome your support in the other threads when I give scientific research, proof and evidence as to the better approaches to some of the other problems facing our society - like guns, media bias and racism - and people aren't interested in hearing about it.  ;) :) :) :) :) :)   (I'm poking at you, in a friendly way.)

Sorry mang... I'm slowly weaning myself off of P/R.   ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 23, 2021, 08:36:58 AM

It's not definite yet, but I may have my first official sanctioned work travel next week; I may call in (for non-COVID reasons) but it's interesting to have to re-incorporate that back into the process again.

I went to get emissions done yesterday morning, and wore my mask into the waiting room and was the only one that had one on (fair play: the people behind the counter were behind plexiglass).   The only employee I saw with a mask was the dude that was actually doing the emissions testing (he looked about 14 years old, too.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 23, 2021, 12:15:43 PM

Quote

"The CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices in a statement dated May 17 said it had looked into reports that a few young vaccine recipients, predominantly adolescents and young adults, and predominantly male, developed myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle.

  The condition often goes away without complications and can be caused by a variety of viruses, the CDC group said.

  CDC monitoring systems had not found more cases than would be expected in the population, but members of the committee on vaccinations felt that healthcare providers should be made aware of the reports of the "potential adverse event," the committee said in the statement.

  It did not say how many people had been affected and recommended further investigation.

  Dr. Amesh Adalja, senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, said vaccines are known to cause myocarditis and would be important to monitor to see if it is causally related to the vaccine. It is important to look at the risk-benefit ratio, he added. "Vaccines are going to unequivocally be much more beneficial outweighing this very low, if conclusively established, risk."

  The CDC said the cases typically occurred within four days after receiving the mRNA vaccines. It did not specify which vaccines. The United States has given emergency authorization to two mRNA vaccines, from Moderna Inc and Pfizer/BioNTech. "

https://www.aol.com/news/u-cdc-investigating-heart-problem-223859573-124152650.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 23, 2021, 03:06:30 PM

I listened to an interesting podcast today and I thought maybe some of us might want to engage in a little 'counter factual' exercise that the host and guest on the podcast discussed.  "What might have happened if?"  Could be fun/interesting.  I am removing 2 of the questions because it would be too tempting to get mired down in politics and then it would move the discussion to another section of the board so please - let's work to avoid that and give the mods a bit of a break.

1.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if there were no social media?

2.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if there had been no technology like Zoom, Uber Eats, Amazon.  No online work meeting platforms, no delivery services, no grocery/liquor/weed store pick up.

3.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if North America had been more aware/concerned about Covid-19 in December 2019?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 23, 2021, 03:09:32 PM

"aware" and "concerned" are two largely different words. Aware means knowing about it, and concerned, to me, means, well, being concerned about it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 23, 2021, 03:28:36 PM

1. Vastly different. As more people would rely on the TV media, and the Newspapers (which the rise of social media caused it to decline), and whatever information they told to the people. The shaming or pushing would be more public, or it could be people just minding their own business more as people won't find reason to take a picture and gloat. It'd be closer to how it was during the Spanish Flu with regards to media and information the people received.

2. More people would've likely homeschooled their children as the schools are closed. The turmoil of businesses would've hit harder, and many businesses would've closed down. But this plays along with the information the people received about Covid.

3. I do think it was here already. It wasn't until there were tests specifically for Covid-19, that we knew it was here. One thing would've been to see if there was anything to this "unknown flu" people were reporting to have as well. Like if we were to have tested them, including antibody tests, if those were focused on. I think knowing about Antibodies and if people  that did have it based on reported symptoms from the diagnosed as "Unknown Flu" illnesses that people experienced, would've helped in the numbers area, and determination that it's here and was here already. Even before it was known to be Covid-19.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: zerogravityfat on May 23, 2021, 06:36:03 PM

Went to the Chelsea piers park, had fun with friends without a mask. First normal interaction since March 2020.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Cool Chris on May 23, 2021, 06:49:50 PM

I need to think about Harmony's post and revisit it, but something has been gnawing at me this weekend.

My FiL, whom I highly respect and consider wise and thoughtful, if a little judgmental, said he thought [paraphrasing] half of the people who died in the US due to Covid "broke the rules." I know he "broke the rules" regularly, so I am not sure what he was driving at. Did he consider he "broke the rules" to a lesser degree, and thus was never at any significant risk (despite being in ill health himself)? If breaking the rules is not binary but a continuum, at what point are we chastising those who did not meet our standards of rule adherence?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 23, 2021, 06:52:07 PM

3 words ended mask mandates.

"Gain of Function"

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 20, 2021, 11:40:00 AM

It's a shame this thing was so politicized. If there were a unified front on this when it first came about we'd have reached this point quite some time ago. Once it was politicized and the media realized how much $$$ they could make off of fear mongering.....it snowballed.

The media realized that a long time ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 23, 2021, 07:07:48 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on May 23, 2021, 06:49:50 PM

My FiL, whom I highly respect and consider wise and thoughtful, if a little judgmental, said he thought [paraphrasing] half of the people who died in the US due to Covid "broke the rules." I know he "broke the rules" regularly, so I am not sure what he was driving at. Did he consider he "broke the rules" to a lesser degree, and thus was never at any significant risk (despite being in ill health himself)? If breaking the rules is not binary but a continuum, at what point are we chastising those who did not meet our standards of rule adherence?

Half the people that died did not die from breaking the rules. I'd be willing to bet that number is closer to 1-3%.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 24, 2021, 05:57:19 AM

Now that we are going out more, kid is in daycare, and so on, I'm discovering that my immune system is just totally rocked. I've had runny nose, itchy throat, coughing, and so on, for like a month now. I guess that's not too much different than it was before all of this and it is allergy season as well but I can't help but feel like I've gotten a rude awakening.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Grappler on May 24, 2021, 06:15:01 AM

Quote from: Skeever on May 24, 2021, 05:57:19 AM

Now that we are going out more, kid is in daycare, and so on, I'm discovering that my immune system is just totally rocked. I've had runny nose, itchy throat, coughing, and so on, for like a month now. I guess that's not too much different than it was before all of this and it is allergy season as well but I can't help but feel like I've gotten a rude awakening.

My allergies have been awful this spring - the pollenating season was later than usual.  But that is correct - my household went without even a cold for a full year.   The my daughter brought 2-3 colds home from school in a month after the school went back to full, in-person learning for 5 days a week and parents were back to shuffling their sniffling kids off to school.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 06:50:16 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 23, 2021, 12:15:43 PM

Quote

"The CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices in a statement dated May 17 said it had looked into reports that a few young vaccine recipients, predominantly adolescents and young adults, and predominantly male, developed myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle.

  The condition often goes away without complications and can be caused by a variety of viruses, the CDC group said.

  CDC monitoring systems had not found more cases than would be expected in the population, but members of the committee on vaccinations felt that healthcare providers should be made aware of the reports of the "potential adverse event," the committee said in the statement.

  It did not say how many people had been affected and recommended further investigation.

  Dr. Amesh Adalja, senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, said vaccines are known to cause myocarditis and would be important to monitor to see if it is causally related to the vaccine. It is important to look at the risk-benefit ratio, he added. "Vaccines are going to unequivocally be much more beneficial outweighing this very low, if conclusively established, risk."

  The CDC said the cases typically occurred within four days after receiving the mRNA vaccines. It did not specify which vaccines. The United States has given emergency authorization to two mRNA vaccines, from Moderna Inc and Pfizer/BioNTech. "

https://www.aol.com/news/u-cdc-investigating-heart-problem-223859573-124152650.html

This kind of goes along with the bloodclots IMO.  Myocarditis is also a side effect of covid.  It's the reason why Big10 football wasn't going to play because the heart problem could be very bad for a football player.  As the article points out, the cases are about the average of the general population, similar to blood clots.  It's certainly not a good thing, but I don't really find this concerning.  Luckily it also heals itself. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:03:39 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/1IpvC1W.png)

Can someone approve me to post there, then???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 24, 2021, 07:13:25 AM

HAHAHA LMFAO.  This was from January/February 2020!!

This was a convenient pro-Trump meme that was floating around last July.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH PEOPLE!!!

:lmao:

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 24, 2021, 07:14:18 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:03:39 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/1IpvC1W.png)

My news sources have a slight liberal lean to them, and I don't recall seeing anything of the sort lately.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:14:22 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 24, 2021, 07:13:25 AM

HAHAHA LMFAO.  This was from January/February 2020!!

This was a convenient pro-Trump meme that was floating around last July.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH PEOPLE!!!

:lmao:

It's not pro-Trump, so much as it's highlighting how bad and uninformative and fear mongering the US media is. They lie, distort, distract, and keep the masses uninformed. The reaction is right, it's almost like you can't imagine those are the same media outlets spewing nonsense today.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 24, 2021, 07:15:29 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 23, 2021, 03:06:30 PM

1.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if there were no social media?

I'll cop to a bias right up front here, but I think it would have been far better.  I think that the information would have transmitted more slowly, but more accurately, and the accuracy would have largely cancelled out the slow.  I think the level of divisiveness would have been FAR less, and there would be a lot less "statements" being made through the compliance with the guidance.   I firmly believe that the social media does a lot to sort of "set" the expectation of how people should react.  Social media is all about conflict, and escalation, and "owning", and I think that aspect of the response would have been greatly suppressed.   (If you disagree, that's fine, but for one moment consider the difference between responding anonymously over a social media platform versus face-to-face in person.)

Quote

2.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if there had been no technology like Zoom, Uber Eats, Amazon.  No online work meeting platforms, no delivery services, no grocery/liquor/weed store pick up.

The response would have been FAR, FAR less effective.  We - humans (not "Republicans" or "Democrats) - have a tendency to get stale on things.  We saw as the COVID response went on that people's willingness to sacrifice waned over time; that would only have been worse if these services weren't there to cushion our sacrifice AND cushion the impact to those businesses greatly affected by the virus.  I'm thinking of all the more restaurants that would have gone out of business if they couldn't pivot to a take out model, and all the additional jobs that would have been lost had they closed.

Quote

3.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if North America had been more aware/concerned about Covid-19 in December 2019?

I don't think it would have been materially different in scope, it just might have started sooner.  That may have prevented some of the larger, early hotspots, such as those in Washington state and New York.  It would have potentially brought us the vaccines that much sooner as well. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:16:39 AM

Quote

1.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if there were no social media?

Well, take a look at the US in the late 1960s for your answer.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:19:21 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 24, 2021, 07:14:18 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:03:39 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/1IpvC1W.png)

My news sources have a slight liberal lean to them, and I don't recall seeing anything of the sort lately.

You should include news sources in your info diet that cover a more broad spectrum of politics. Left, right, "center", fringe.
Humans lie and deceive, doesn't matter who they support.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:20:58 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 24, 2021, 07:13:25 AM

HAHAHA LMFAO.  This was from January/February 2020!!

This was a convenient pro-Trump meme that was floating around last July.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH PEOPLE!!!

:lmao:

Are you saying those are faked news headlines???

Not sure you understand what 'meme' means.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:34:27 AM

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 24, 2021, 08:09:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:20:58 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 24, 2021, 07:13:25 AM

HAHAHA LMFAO.  This was from January/February 2020!!

This was a convenient pro-Trump meme that was floating around last July.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH PEOPLE!!!

:lmao:

Are you saying those are faked news headlines???

Not sure you understand what 'meme' means.

Fair enough... it's not exactly pro-Trump, nor a meme.  But you drop it in here with no context or personal commentary like it's a current view of the media.  That's what I was talking about when I said "do your own research".  And if your point is to highlight media bias and how bad/uninformative they are, maybe that deserves a different thread if that's REALLY what you want to highlight and discuss.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 24, 2021, 08:28:52 AM

Quote from: Grappler on May 24, 2021, 06:15:01 AM

Quote from: Skeever on May 24, 2021, 05:57:19 AM

Now that we are going out more, kid is in daycare, and so on, I'm discovering that my immune system is just totally rocked. I've had runny nose, itchy throat, coughing, and so on, for like a month now. I guess that's not too much different than it was before all of this and it is allergy season as well but I can't help but feel like I've gotten a rude awakening.

My allergies have been awful this spring - the pollenating season was later than usual.  But that is correct - my household went without even a cold for a full year.   The my daughter brought 2-3 colds home from school in a month after the school went back to full, in-person learning for 5 days a week and parents were back to shuffling their sniffling kids off to school.

Yeah I mean, we've done the same. The fact is, you have no choice. Unless a child has a temperature and at least 3 visible symptoms where I live, they can't be send home, even under the current precautions. So we're all sick, all the time. Hoping my immune system gets its ass back in gear soon because like you I had not been sick at all in over a year and suddenly having a cold was a lot tougher to deal with than I expected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 24, 2021, 08:30:50 AM

*snip*

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 24, 2021, 10:13:08 AM

Tap tap tap.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Sacul on May 24, 2021, 12:14:31 PM

Gramps finally got his second dose of the vaccine, I can finally relax a little more. Now waiting for my parents to get their first dose soon. It looks like I'll get mine around the end of this year at this pace.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 12:28:06 PM

NJ is removing the mask mandate on Friday

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 24, 2021, 12:51:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 12:28:06 PM

NJ is removing the mask mandate on Friday

Kinda unreal. Psychologically, I don't know if I'm ready. My wife hasn't been out in almost a year due to her being at risk, and I think it will be doubly tough for her as she is not even used to going out to the stores at all. Though I suppose there's nothing stopping anyone from wearing a mask if they still want to.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 12:57:05 PM

Quote from: Skeever on May 24, 2021, 12:51:12 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 12:28:06 PM

NJ is removing the mask mandate on Friday

Kinda unreal. Psychologically, I don't know if I'm ready. My wife hasn't been out in almost a year due to her being at risk, and I think it will be doubly tough for her as she is not even used to going out to the stores at all. Though I suppose there's nothing stopping anyone from wearing a mask if they still want to.

I think it'll be weird, but I'm ready to take it off personally.  But you are right, nothing from stopping you from wearing it and also stores can still require it, plus it'll be required for public transportation. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 24, 2021, 01:21:11 PM

The Wal Mart DC I work at is allowing those who have been vaccinated not to wear a mask if they want to.  It's crazy how many are not vaccinated yet.  I think there's a small % that are vaccinated and wearing masks freely here.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 24, 2021, 01:24:00 PM

I haven't worn my mask indoors since the CDC made their announcement. If the business isn't explicitly stating I need to wear one, I don't intend to going forward. It was weird at first, but I adjusted quickly.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lonk on May 24, 2021, 01:26:42 PM

We started letting our vaccinated employee be without a masks at work. Very few have stopped wearing the mask. Most continue to wear them in public areas or when meeting with clients.

I continue to wear mine for now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 24, 2021, 01:36:10 PM

I have a funny feeling I'm going to be walking around with a mask around my wrist for the next few weeks.  :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: pg1067 on May 24, 2021, 01:37:57 PM

Except for vacation days, I've been in the office every day since March 2020.  Some days, I'm the only one or one of only two.  It's an office that typically had about 20 people before last March.  There's one other guy who's here almost every day, and we have a few who are routinely here on Tuesdays and Thursdays.  Others are sporadic, and there are about 5 of the 20 whom I haven't seen at all since last March.  Almost no one wears a mask in the office.  Most folks from other offices in the building wear masks in the common areas, but they've never been required.

We've had indoor dining here for a few months (following a short discontinuance from around Thanksgiving until late January I think).  Dodger Stadium will be at full capacity starting June 15 (I assume masks will still be required but probably won't be strictly enforced).  I think there's speculation that the Lakers/Clippers may be near or at full capacity if they make it deep into the playoffs.  My daughter is supposed to be on campus full time for her senior year starting in August.  Haven't heard anything about masks in grocery stores and such places.  Assume that will be required by the stores for at least a while after it is no longer required by law.

And yet I still see people driving in cars, by themselves, with the windows up, and wearing masks.  Utterly pointless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 02:01:40 PM

Quote from: pg1067 on May 24, 2021, 01:37:57 PM

And yet I still see people driving in cars, by themselves, with the windows up, and wearing masks.  Utterly pointless.

Saw someone last week in a convertible, top down, with mask on.  Whatever  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 24, 2021, 02:02:45 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 02:01:40 PM

Quote from: pg1067 on May 24, 2021, 01:37:57 PM

And yet I still see people driving in cars, by themselves, with the windows up, and wearing masks.  Utterly pointless.

Saw someone last week in a convertible, top down, with mask on.  Whatever  :lol

Well, that's to keep the bugs out.  ;)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 24, 2021, 02:09:43 PM

If I was out driving for Uber, I might keep a mask on without passengers in the car.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 24, 2021, 02:28:43 PM

Quote from: pg1067 on May 24, 2021, 01:37:57 PM

And yet I still see people driving in cars, by themselves, with the windows up, and wearing masks.  Utterly pointless.

I've done it a couple of times when out running errands where I would have it on leaving one store, and had a short trip to somewhere else, and just couldn't be bothered to take it off in the car in between.  And I've done it a couple of other times just to deliberately troll anyone who might see and think "WHAT IS HE DOING?!  THAT IS UTTERLY POINTLESS!"  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 24, 2021, 02:32:21 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 24, 2021, 01:21:11 PM

The Wal Mart DC I work at is allowing those who have been vaccinated not to wear a mask if they want to.  It's crazy how many are not vaccinated yet.  I think there's a small % that are vaccinated and wearing masks freely here.

How is the company overseeing compliance? Do the employees have to show their card to not wear a mask?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 24, 2021, 02:34:13 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 24, 2021, 02:28:43 PM

Quote from: pg1067 on May 24, 2021, 01:37:57 PM

And yet I still see people driving in cars, by themselves, with the windows up, and wearing masks.  Utterly pointless.

I've done it a couple of times when out running errands where I would have it on leaving one store, and had a short trip to somewhere else, and just couldn't be bothered to take it off in the car in between.  And I've done it a couple of other times just to deliberately troll anyone who might see and think "WHAT IS HE DOING?!  THAT IS UTTERLY POINTLESS!"  :lol

Depending on when too: I have come out of Home Depot before, got in my truck and for whatever reason didn't take the mask off until I was out on the main road going home.  I never found the masks to be so onerous that I had to rip it off the second I got into the car.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 24, 2021, 02:35:37 PM

Just to be clear, my example was of someone driving in the NJ turnpike, there's no stop and go shopping there.  That's legit long distance driving.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 24, 2021, 02:38:17 PM

also if one is to adher to strict mask protocols (which I don’t it’s too much of a hassle) my understanding is you’re supposed to wash your hands before putting it on (and after), go off to do all your errands and never touch your mask until you’re ready to take it off and wash your hands immediately.   Again I never do that I just keep one in the car,  put it on before going into a place and swap it out every couple days. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 24, 2021, 02:38:56 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 24, 2021, 02:32:21 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 24, 2021, 01:21:11 PM

The Wal Mart DC I work at is allowing those who have been vaccinated not to wear a mask if they want to.  It's crazy how many are not vaccinated yet.  I think there's a small % that are vaccinated and wearing masks freely here.

How is the company overseeing compliance? Do the employees have to show their card to not wear a mask?

The honor code. I don't think legally a company can ask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 24, 2021, 02:47:01 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 24, 2021, 02:32:21 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 24, 2021, 01:21:11 PM

The Wal Mart DC I work at is allowing those who have been vaccinated not to wear a mask if they want to.  It's crazy how many are not vaccinated yet.  I think there's a small % that are vaccinated and wearing masks freely here.

How is the company overseeing compliance? Do the employees have to show their card to not wear a mask?

At my company we're going back to full occupancy and no mask required for vaccinated people.  100% honor system = no one will wear a mask, regardless of their vaccination status.


I mean who really believes that the people who are refusing to get vaccinated are going to actually honor such a system?  (protip: They Won't) 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 24, 2021, 02:49:16 PM

I was just wondering. We go maskless for vaccinated associates next week. That means two more days for me in a mask.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 24, 2021, 02:51:44 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 24, 2021, 02:49:16 PM

I was just wondering. We go maskless for vaccinated associates next week. That means two more days for me in a mask.

Yeah, and how many of those teenagers and 20-somethings that work there do you think give a single fuck about getting a vaccine?  1 or 2 out of every 10? 


But I'll bet they ALL come in with no masks starting on Tuesday. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 24, 2021, 03:05:53 PM

Well, that's just it. But it's not really the teenagers' fault. Ultimately it's a choice their parents make. But there's plenty of adult associates that aren't vaxxed and will be maskless.

I know what's coming..no masks for everyone, but I was just curious how companies would manage compliance.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 24, 2021, 03:18:49 PM

While California is looking to lift the mandate on 6/15, I got a shitty feeling the super woke companies I work for (Lyft and Whole Foods) will giddily require them indefinitely just to be dicks.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 24, 2021, 10:58:34 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 24, 2021, 07:15:29 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 23, 2021, 03:06:30 PM

1.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if there were no social media?

I'll cop to a bias right up front here, but I think it would have been far better.  I think that the information would have transmitted more slowly, but more accurately, and the accuracy would have largely cancelled out the slow.  I think the level of divisiveness would have been FAR less, and there would be a lot less "statements" being made through the compliance with the guidance.   I firmly believe that the social media does a lot to sort of "set" the expectation of how people should react.  Social media is all about conflict, and escalation, and "owning", and I think that aspect of the response would have been greatly suppressed.   (If you disagree, that's fine, but for one moment consider the difference between responding anonymously over a social media platform versus face-to-face in person.)

I don't disagree with you that information would've been slower to get out and there would've likely been less of a knee-jerk response to that information.  I wonder if it is a trade-off though?  Sometimes it is hard to remember what we were up against in the early days.  Ventilators and PPE in short supply; hospitals at risk for being over-run in some areas.  The information had to get out quickly or that part of it (transmission of the virus) could've exponentially been much worse.

The theory one of the doctor's on the podcast also put forth was that the talking heads who were putting the information out there would've been different.  They likely would've been more centrist and moderate in nature.  Media is about likes and retweets, so they are going to choose doctors and "experts" with a large social media presence.  Those people post their own stories/reports and op-eds, get the social media boost for it, and around and around it goes.  Without social media the "experts" don't have to pander to an audience.  They can be the drollest of the droll scientist who can just report facts without sensationalism that brings in eyeballs. 

It is an interesting dilemma - do we go for speed at the cost of a little (or a lot) of inaccuracy?  Or do we go for accuracy at the risk of more people getting sick and potentially dying because it takes forever to get the word out into the public for consumption?

Quote from: Stadler on May 24, 2021, 07:15:29 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 23, 2021, 03:06:30 PM

2.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if there had been no technology like Zoom, Uber Eats, Amazon.  No online work meeting platforms, no delivery services, no grocery/liquor/weed store pick up.

The response would have been FAR, FAR less effective.  We - humans (not "Republicans" or "Democrats) - have a tendency to get stale on things.  We saw as the COVID response went on that people's willingness to sacrifice waned over time; that would only have been worse if these services weren't there to cushion our sacrifice AND cushion the impact to those businesses greatly affected by the virus.  I'm thinking of all the more restaurants that would have gone out of business if they couldn't pivot to a take out model, and all the additional jobs that would have been lost had they closed.

I completely agree with you about the cushions provided.  I don't think you are going far enough here.  There would've been MUCH more white collar job loss...MASSIVE layoffs.  People would've undoubtedly been much more willing to risk going into work - even if half time - to avoid being laid off all together.  We'll have been much more willing to take on the mitigation factors necessary to do so - wearing masks, alternate days with co-workers, spreading out, opening windows in the winter, etc.  Upper-middle class simply wouldn't have tolerated that amount of job loss.  And they/we would've been forced to be out in the soup of Covid with the "essential workers" in order to get our basic needs met.  And schools?  They simply would've had to have remained open so that people could go into their jobs.  With no technology, there could've been no on-line school at all.  And I really fault and question the left on this much more harshly (myself included here).  The availability of technology sort of trapped us into the response of a willingness to play it safe and stay home, shield ourselves from the reality of the risks that others were forced to take just to survive.  These people who couldn't afford the luxury of staying home and staying safe?  These are the people that supposedly we on the left champion and yet did we?  Or did we just use them to make our own lives easier during the pandemic?  And is this same luxury keeping some of us locked into our fears now?  Keeping us locked into our "sides" even unnecessarily?

Quote from: Stadler on May 24, 2021, 07:15:29 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 23, 2021, 03:06:30 PM

3.  How would the Covid response have been/be different if North America had been more aware/concerned about Covid-19 in December 2019?

I don't think it would have been materially different in scope, it just might have started sooner.  That may have prevented some of the larger, early hotspots, such as those in Washington state and New York.  It would have potentially brought us the vaccines that much sooner as well.

Well, I think I agree but I would also add that had we shut down travel before the holidays, we could've arguably kept the mortality rates lower and given us more time to ramp up and prepare, as well as get messaging out.  I wonder, honestly, if there were those in power who did know that early on.  Who either discounted the severity because of outright denial and disbelief or even more nefariously because of not wanting to slow the holiday spending.  I think there was also a faction that wanted to down-play it all to not cause panic in the stock market or in hoarding, even more than there was in March. 

It's an interesting thought exercise - at least to me - to ponder about other potential outcomes and scenarios.  If we had done this then that could've been the outcome.  I wonder though...have we learned anything?  Are we going to be more prepared?  Are we going to look at ourselves and our own responses as critically as we apply our judgment to others?  People as a whole who are under a great amount of fear and stress are not going to be making very good decisions.  I have had to face that fact when I look at some of my own responses.  I am human.  I can forgive it and I can understand it.  But can I guarantee that I will learn from it and do things differently going forward?  I don't know.  I hope so.  I know that I will be less 'tribal' in my responses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 25, 2021, 05:42:42 AM

Good post; I'm only cutting the first two because I have nothing to add other than " :tup" (and a caveat that in your second reply, I appreciate you being honest, but again, I don't see much of a "side" issue here).

Quote

Well, I think I agree but I would also add that had we shut down travel before the holidays, we could've arguably kept the mortality rates lower and given us more time to ramp up and prepare, as well as get messaging out.  I wonder, honestly, if there were those in power who did know that early on.  Who either discounted the severity because of outright denial and disbelief or even more nefariously because of not wanting to slow the holiday spending.  I think there was also a faction that wanted to down-play it all to not cause panic in the stock market or in hoarding, even more than there was in March.

I like this line of thinking, but as I work through it, I think it just gets complicated, and highlights the problem - NOT with you, generally - of thinking in buckets.  There probably WAS someone thinking "keep the lid on this because of the holidays"; and of those people SOME were likely thinking of "$$$", but some were likely, and ironically, thinking of public safety.  We move so many people through the holiday season, that I don't know that we could have handled a panic just then.   Remember, leading up to the first really big holiday - July 4th here in the States - we had four months to get our arms around the concept of "this isn't normal".  I don't know what one week would have done.

I think there were likely people that didn't want to upset the apple cart with China, and, given North Korea, that could be people on EITHER side of the aisle.  And from multiple angles:  political, but also economic.  If the horn was sounded immediately, and China - not working under the same rules we do here in the States - just locked everything down, could we withstand that?   Sure, we moved from in person shopping to on-line shopping, but what if there was nothing to buy?  We all saw the impacts of the toilet paper shortage; multiply that by 10 or 100.

Quote

It's an interesting thought exercise - at least to me - to ponder about other potential outcomes and scenarios.  If we had done this then that could've been the outcome.  I wonder though...have we learned anything?  Are we going to be more prepared?  Are we going to look at ourselves and our own responses as critically as we apply our judgment to others?  People as a whole who are under a great amount of fear and stress are not going to be making very good decisions.  I have had to face that fact when I look at some of my own responses.  I am human.  I can forgive it and I can understand it.  But can I guarantee that I will learn from it and do things differently going forward?  I don't know.  I hope so.  I know that I will be less 'tribal' in my responses.

Here's one to think about:  I'm not at all saying that our response was measured on purpose - honestly, I think even the smartest, most aware people bumbled along for at least four or five months as we figured this out - but as I write this, I think our response was perhaps as fast as we - generally, as society - could have handled, just out of dumb luck.   I think as we look at what we could change, it's the chaos theory personified; it spirals out of control REALLY quickly.

The learning part is more interesting, and I'm not sure I could answer without letting my cynicism take over.   Other than the measurable, recordable hard science - mask technology, viral technology, vaccine technology - I don't think we've collectively learned a damn thing.   The "we should be wearing BODY SUITS!" crowd is always going to think that had we mandated PPE, and closed the door to Florida entirely, we'd have saved lives (I don't agree with this, as I think it's ignorant - in the literal sense of the word - of basic human nature).  The "we should keep our economy open at ALL COSTS!" crowd is always going to think that the numbers were what the numbers were and we shouldn't have taken the economic hit TOO (I don't agree with this either, as I think it's also ignorant - ITLSOTW - of basic human nature).  I think politically we're too fractured to really understand what needed to be done.  Namely, the divisiveness needed to be put aside at Day One.  This should have been our 2020 9/11, where left, right, rich, poor, black, white, smart, stupid, Dee and Jay Jay (Twisted Sister) came together even if just for a blissful couple of weeks, and put country and people ahead of party and self.   Trump is the obvious target for this, but he's not the only one.   There are other leaders in other communities, political and otherwise, that could have forced the issue and they didn't, with very few exceptions.  Cuomo was one, and it hurts me that his legacy from this will likely be scandal, not his excellence in his initial response, since that will only ensure that this lesson has less chance of being learned.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:32:03 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 24, 2021, 08:09:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:20:58 AM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 24, 2021, 07:13:25 AM

HAHAHA LMFAO.  This was from January/February 2020!!

This was a convenient pro-Trump meme that was floating around last July.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH PEOPLE!!!

:lmao:

Are you saying those are faked news headlines???

Not sure you understand what 'meme' means.

Fair enough... it's not exactly pro-Trump, nor a meme.  But you drop it in here with no context or personal commentary like it's a current view of the media.  That's what I was talking about when I said "do your own research".  And if your point is to highlight media bias and how bad/uninformative they are, maybe that deserves a different thread if that's REALLY what you want to highlight and discuss.

Well, it was on topic in regards to coronavirus. I can't seem to get into the political forum here and I won't start a new thread here since that isn't allowed.
But think about it, everything you think is true now, might not be next year.
This "Vaccines" are approved for emergency use this year, but where will we be next year?

I do do my own research, but that is frowned upon if it doesn't reflect American Marxists and American Marxist narratives in a positive light.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:34:33 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:03:39 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/1IpvC1W.png)

Can someone approve me to post there, then???

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:35:15 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 24, 2021, 07:34:27 AM

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html)

but this is fine in general discussion?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 07:33:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:32:03 AM

But think about it, everything you think is true now, might not be next year.
This "Vaccines" are approved for emergency use this year, but where will we be next year?

I do do my own research, but that is frowned upon if it doesn't reflect American Marxists and American Marxist narratives in a positive light.

 :lol

and the vaccines, specifically Pfizer, will be FDA fully approved by then, will you change your narrative then?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2021, 08:02:59 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 07:33:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:32:03 AM

But think about it, everything you think is true now, might not be next year.
This "Vaccines" are approved for emergency use this year, but where will we be next year?

I do do my own research, but that is frowned upon if it doesn't reflect American Marxists and American Marxist narratives in a positive light.

 :lol

and the vaccines, specifically Pfizer, will be FDA fully approved by then, will you change your narrative then?

Which means the virus won't be an emergency.

The emergency was to slow the spread. Which we now are doing thanks to these vaccines. It slowed it to where it's not an emergency. To lower the risks of people getting severe symptoms that causes Death and the mass influx of patients that overwhelmed the hospitals.

Which was the main reason for the shutdown, quarantines, and masking. What this did was affect us humans mentally, because we are not accustomed to just being quarantined, and not doing things, quarantining affects the mentality, prison is proof of this.

This has caused peoples Anxiety and Worry to rise, which can cause your body and gut to be affected, which are known as the butterflies and the sick feeling in your gut. Worry and anxiety can make you sick because your mind controls your body.

These people ended up being comforted and blanketed in their safety net, that now they don't want to leave that comfort. These people are still concerned even though the science says you'll be fine as the vaccines work, and you won't be getting severe symptoms, more than likely those symptoms of Covid-19 will be Asymptomatic.

This in turn, means the only ones who should actually be concerned or worried about this are the ones whom didn't get the vaccine. And now, that is entirely their decision. These people more than likely just don't see their risk as high as some people see their risks.

The vaccines don't stop the spread or prevent you from catching it, it means you just won't feel as bad as you would without the vaccine. To the point where you won't even notice and think it's just a common cold (also a coronavirus), or allergies, and won't even bother worrying much at all. And this all depends on a person's immunity response. And not everyone has the same response. And why you should see your doctor before getting any form of remedy or vaccine, anything you inject in your body really.

And there are many things that occurred before Covid-19, that caused many of the human population to end up with these underlying conditions that made people more susceptible to this virus, which caused them to have severe symptoms from it.

For me, it's mainly visiting your doctor to see if you are healthy. And if you are not, what are you doing to better your health? Most people didn't bother and now here we are....Would this be considered a lesson to learn? To have more self-responsibility and accountability for your decisions and choices, like saying "Maybe I shouldn't have been eating all that fried, greasy, sugary, food. Then maybe I wouldn't be worrying as much, and having my anxiety rise, because of a virus."


If anything should be learned. I think Accountability for the self, and the choices and decisions made that caused one to be dealing with the situations they are in now, should be considered before placing that blame on the other for passing a sickness onto you, because you don't know for sure where you actually could have caught that illness, unless someone actually sneezes or coughs in your face. Not knowing for sure how you caught the sickness, is the risk you take when going out into the world and being around so many different people.

I am now seeing a lot of people that are not healthy actually taking the initiative to better their health. That's good. And shows that these people understand and took that self-responsibility to better their health and not have these underlying conditions that can be dealt with by changes in diet and exercise.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 08:06:51 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2021, 08:02:59 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 07:33:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:32:03 AM

But think about it, everything you think is true now, might not be next year.
This "Vaccines" are approved for emergency use this year, but where will we be next year?

I do do my own research, but that is frowned upon if it doesn't reflect American Marxists and American Marxist narratives in a positive light.

 :lol

and the vaccines, specifically Pfizer, will be FDA fully approved by then, will you change your narrative then?

Which means the virus won't be an emergency.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2021, 08:02:59 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 07:33:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:32:03 AM

But think about it, everything you think is true now, might not be next year.
This "Vaccines" are approved for emergency use this year, but where will we be next year?

I do do my own research, but that is frowned upon if it doesn't reflect American Marxists and American Marxist narratives in a positive light.

 :lol

and the vaccines, specifically Pfizer, will be FDA fully approved by then, will you change your narrative then?

Which means the virus won't be an emergency.

Not really.  It means:

Quote

For the FDA to grant approval, Pfizer-BioNTech will have to comply with a key requirement: providing follow-up data six months after vaccinations.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/07/994839927/pfizer-seeks-full-fda-approval-for-covid-19-vaccine (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/07/994839927/pfizer-seeks-full-fda-approval-for-covid-19-vaccine)

And if I recall, the first public shots were given at the and of December so we are just about at 6 months now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2021, 08:15:23 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 08:06:51 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2021, 08:02:59 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 07:33:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:32:03 AM

But think about it, everything you think is true now, might not be next year.
This "Vaccines" are approved for emergency use this year, but where will we be next year?

I do do my own research, but that is frowned upon if it doesn't reflect American Marxists and American Marxist narratives in a positive light.

 :lol

and the vaccines, specifically Pfizer, will be FDA fully approved by then, will you change your narrative then?

Which means the virus won't be an emergency.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 25, 2021, 08:02:59 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 25, 2021, 07:33:27 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 25, 2021, 06:32:03 AM

But think about it, everything you think is true now, might not be next year.
This "Vaccines" are approved for emergency use this year, but where will we be next year?

I do do my own research, but that is frowned upon if it doesn't reflect American Marxists and American Marxist narratives in a positive light.

 :lol

and the vaccines, specifically Pfizer, will be FDA fully approved by then, will you change your narrative then?

Which means the virus won't be an emergency.

Not really.  It means:

Quote

For the FDA to grant approval, Pfizer-BioNTech will have to comply with a key requirement: providing follow-up data six months after vaccinations.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/07/994839927/pfizer-seeks-full-fda-approval-for-covid-19-vaccine (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/07/994839927/pfizer-seeks-full-fda-approval-for-covid-19-vaccine)

And if I recall, the first public shots were given at the and of December so we are just about at 6 months now.

I knew someone would point that out.

That was more in response to Darkshades question of "Where will we be next year?"

But also, once it is FDA approved then it won't be considered an emergency. As the data continues to show these vaccines work and now people don't have to worry as a remedy is available for people to take. But mostly everyone who wanted one has already gotten one.

So I am sure, once it's approved, the Unvaccinated can go maskless. As it's now not an emergency, and those susceptible should be fine if vaccinated.

There is no way to prevent death, so if it's about stopping death, then we're screwed.  :lol

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 25, 2021, 08:33:36 AM

I heard on the radio this morning that 71% of New England is partially or fully vaccinated at this point  :metal

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ErHaO on May 25, 2021, 09:44:54 AM

Got my first Pfizer dose  :metal It did fuck me up for about a day though, but apparently people who have had covid can have bit more prominent response to the first dose of the vaccine(s), so maybe it was due to that. Thankfully it was only for a day and I feel great now.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 25, 2021, 10:37:10 AM

Better 5G reception I'll bet, too!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 25, 2021, 01:48:27 PM

Quote from: TAC on May 24, 2021, 03:05:53 PM

Well, that's just it. But it's not really the teenagers' fault. Ultimately it's a choice their parents make. But there's plenty of adult associates that aren't vaxxed and will be maskless.

I know what's coming..no masks for everyone, but I was just curious how companies would manage compliance.

Oh, I agree.  The kids, especially the young ones just starting out are not at fault.  Who among us didn't feel completely invincible when we were 16?  I would NEVER have gone to get a vaccine.  Hell, not even the 30-year-old me would have gotten a vaccine because the 30-year-old me knew everything and "the man" wasn't gonna make me do anything I didn't choose to do. 


Companies can't really manage compliance because they can't ask employees if they've been vaccinated.  Employees can choose to divulge that information if they want but companies can't require you to divulge it nor can they penalize you for not divulging it, so "honor system" is completely meaningless.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 10:01:30 AM

My office announced that people working in the office who have been vaccinated no longer need to wear masks in the office.  I'm glad, but honestly it's been a little weird.

They are allowing workers who have been remote over the last year to voluntarily start coming back into the office as of June 1.  There will be a slow phase-in, with September as a the target to return to business as usual (more or less).

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 26, 2021, 10:07:47 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 10:01:30 AM

My office announced that people working in the office who have been vaccinated no longer need to wear masks in the office.  I'm glad, but honestly it's been a little weird.

They are allowing workers who have been remote over the last year to voluntarily start coming back into the office as of June 1.  There will be a slow phase-in, with September as a the target to return to business as usual (more or less).

They are doing that now where I work Hef and to see how many people are still wearing masks actually scares me.  I know a small % is still wearing it because another loved one in their family still needs to get a second shot but to see so many here not vaccinated it downright crazy.  I will never preach to them about it but it's nuts how many people to not want to get the vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 10:56:32 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 26, 2021, 10:07:47 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 10:01:30 AM

My office announced that people working in the office who have been vaccinated no longer need to wear masks in the office.  I'm glad, but honestly it's been a little weird.

They are allowing workers who have been remote over the last year to voluntarily start coming back into the office as of June 1.  There will be a slow phase-in, with September as a the target to return to business as usual (more or less).

They are doing that now where I work Hef and to see how many people are still wearing masks actually scares me.  I know a small % is still wearing it because another loved one in their family still needs to get a second shot but to see so many here not vaccinated it downright crazy.  I will never preach to them about it but it's nuts how many people to not want to get the vaccine.

Are you for sure they're all wearing masks because they are not vaccinated?

I know people whom are vaccinated but yet, are still choosing to continue wearing a mask and social distancing. Some of those people at your work could be the same.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 11:47:28 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 10:56:32 AM

I know people whom are vaccinated but yet, are still choosing to continue wearing a mask and social distancing.

When they don't have to do so?

Why?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Chino on May 26, 2021, 11:52:13 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 11:47:28 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 10:56:32 AM

I know people whom are vaccinated but yet, are still choosing to continue wearing a mask and social distancing.

When they don't have to do so?

Why?

This one kind of escapes me too. I think there are two main reasons.

1) People are still legit scared. Even if they don't want to admit it, they're worried there's still a chance they'll get Covid. I think some are telling themselves "I'm doing it to protect those who can't get vaccinated", but I think that's BS in the majority of cases.
2) Everyone else is. I'm guilty of this one. I went into a store the other day, and I was the only person in there not wearing a mask. I put it on simply because I was getting shit looks, and I didn't feel like ending up on someone's social media page and getting called out for my behavior.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 26, 2021, 11:57:23 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 10:56:32 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 26, 2021, 10:07:47 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 10:01:30 AM

My office announced that people working in the office who have been vaccinated no longer need to wear masks in the office.  I'm glad, but honestly it's been a little weird.

They are allowing workers who have been remote over the last year to voluntarily start coming back into the office as of June 1.  There will be a slow phase-in, with September as a the target to return to business as usual (more or less).

They are doing that now where I work Hef and to see how many people are still wearing masks actually scares me.  I know a small % is still wearing it because another loved one in their family still needs to get a second shot but to see so many here not vaccinated it downright crazy.  I will never preach to them about it but it's nuts how many people to not want to get the vaccine.

Are you for sure they're all wearing masks because they are not vaccinated?

I know people whom are vaccinated but yet, are still choosing to continue wearing a mask and social distancing. Some of those people at your work could be the same.

Ben, that's the small % I'm talking about.  Sure there are some but most would jettison the mask at first shot.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 26, 2021, 11:57:40 AM

Quote from: Chino on May 26, 2021, 11:52:13 AM

2) Everyone else is. I'm guilty of this one. I went into a store the other day, and I was the only person in there not wearing a mask. I put it on simply because I was getting shit looks, and I didn't feel like ending up on someone's social media page and getting called out for my behavior.

I'm extremely curious how things will go on Friday when the mandate is lifted here.  I plan on going into the super market to scope things out and I plan on not wearing a mask either, but will carry it with me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2021, 12:06:43 PM

3)  It makes others comfortable.  If someone is going to call me out because they subjectively believe I should wear a mask, I don't really care about that.  That misunderstanding is on them.  But I have no problem wearing mine if I believe others are not comfortable.  There's certainly nothing wrong with being considerate of other people's feelings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 26, 2021, 12:07:45 PM

Everything is maskless where I'm at. My kids still wear one....but, most every business has dropped the mandate. The only time I've worn my mask the past couple weeks is when I'm working and doing site visits at hospitals. The only weird looks you get around here is if you're still wearing one.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

You can still get pregnant while on the pill
You can still catch an STI while using a condom
You can still have the sniffles while on allergy meds
You can still have an asthma attack while on inhalers
You can still have abnormal blood sugar while on insulin

You can still catch COVID after being vaccinated.

Maybe some people would rather make the choice to be overly cautious, rather than thinking everything's normal at the first opportunity.  Maybe people don't want even a mild case of COVID.  Maybe people want to do a little extra in their part to continue to drive the numbers down.  This isn't a shot at anyone here, but for all that are tossing the mask immediately, you'll never know if you catch an asymptomatic case of COVID.  Or if you spread it to anyone.  Of if they spread it.  And so on, and so on, and so on ...  Things may be great inside your own borders, but until the world is out of the woods, no one is out of the woods.  Being vaccinated =/= COVID invincibility.  This is part of the reason of my post from a couple weeks back, that I don't think I'll be going maskless (indoors in public / crowded spaces) anytime soon, even with my second dose.  You don't see businesses tearing down their plexi-glass right now, do you?

Then there are things like this from the weekend ...

'Triple mutant' Covid variant identified in the UK with 'strange gene combination' (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/triple-mutant-covid-variant-identified-24161494)
Public Health England is investigating the new variant with 49 cases found so far mainly in Yorkshire and Humber while people are being told not to be alarmed by it

For all the people that can't whip that mask of fast enough, there's going to be people who might have concerns that the US is potentially a petry-dish breeding ground for it's own variant.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 26, 2021, 01:35:25 PM

mask wearing should be normalized anyway.  At least I’m never going to look twice at someone like I might have before. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 26, 2021, 01:35:52 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

This isn't a shot at anyone here, but for all that are tossing the mask immediately, you'll never know if you catch an asymptomatic case of COVID.  Or if you spread it to anyone.  Of if they spread it.  And so on, and so on, and so on ...

Vaccines have been easily available for long enough now, it's not really my problem is I spread it to an unvaccinated person.  They made their choice, although the caveat of someone who legit cannot get the vaccine is really the only concern. 

The science also shows that vaccinated people aren't likely to spread it and if they do, it's not likely to kill someone because viral load will be very low.  It's really about the science IMO.  And your linked article can be filed into the "fear mongering media examples" IMO. 

Actually just today some data on covid breakthrough cases was released and it's highly encouraging:

https://www.newsweek.com/this-chart-number-covid-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-us-1595124 (https://www.newsweek.com/this-chart-number-covid-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-us-1595124)

(https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1807609/breakthrough-covid-19-cases.webp?w=790&f=59b2daced69060feeec8577546b42d90)

and in regards the deaths:

Quote

The median age of patients who died was 82 while 28 of these individuals had no COVID-19 symptoms or died from an unrelated cause.

Essentially, the point and the science shows, vaccinated people are not causing issues here.  The risks associated with covid once vaccinated are so low, you should be wayyyy more scared about getting into a vehicle.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2021, 01:37:27 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

You can still catch COVID after being vaccinated.

Well, yeah, you can.  But the odds are miniscule.  And the odds of getting really sick are even more miniscule.

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

...but until the world is out of the woods, no one is out of the woods.

Eh, not really.

As for the rest of the post, I think the answer for a lot of people is along the lines of:  Yeah, I know, but I'm not really all that concerned.  When the risk of something bad happening is so small, it isn't something I waste my time worrying about.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 01:48:27 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

You can still get pregnant while on the pill
You can still catch an STI while using a condom
You can still have the sniffles while on allergy meds
You can still have an asthma attack while on inhalers
You can still have abnormal blood sugar while on insulin

You can still catch COVID after being vaccinated.

Maybe some people would rather make the choice to be overly cautious, rather than thinking everything's normal at the first opportunity.  Maybe people don't want even a mild case of COVID.  Maybe people want to do a little extra in their part to continue to drive the numbers down.  This isn't a shot at anyone here, but for all that are tossing the mask immediately, you'll never know if you catch an asymptomatic case of COVID.  Or if you spread it to anyone.  Of if they spread it.  And so on, and so on, and so on ...  Things may be great inside your own borders, but until the world is out of the woods, no one is out of the woods.  Being vaccinated =/= COVID invincibility.  This is part of the reason of my post from a couple weeks back, that I don't think I'll be going maskless (indoors in public / crowded spaces) anytime soon, even with my second dose.  You don't see businesses tearing down their plexi-glass right now, do you?

Then there are things like this from the weekend ...

'Triple mutant' Covid variant identified in the UK with 'strange gene combination' (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/triple-mutant-covid-variant-identified-24161494)
Public Health England is investigating the new variant with 49 cases found so far mainly in Yorkshire and Humber while people are being told not to be alarmed by it

For all the people that can't whip that mask of fast enough, there's going to be people who might have concerns that the US is potentially a petry-dish breeding ground for it's own variant.

I hear this and completely understand what you are saying.  I felt very strongly about all of this until very recently myself.  I think were we here in the US in a similar situation as other countries having high numbers or not doing as well with vaccine roll out, it makes perfect sense.

Honesty, I hope people continue to see the benefit of masking when ill on-going.  Imagine how less often we'd get colds and flu?  Even gastrointestinal diseases could be decreased because when you touch that tainted surface and a mask prevents you from getting the disease into your body then it is a win/win.  Keep hand washing, keep squirting that sanitizer.  Let's make this our new normal.   :tup

That said, variants can be stopped by vaccination.  Variants thus far have not jumped the vaccines.  Our T cells and B cells - for those who are vaccinated and those who have recovered from Covid - are doing their jobs.  Certainly there will never be a 100% guarantee.  Viruses mutate, this is not new.  Listening to infectious disease specialists, I'm not hearing the fear/panic about variants.  I am getting fear/panic about variants from media outlets.  The ID docs are clear that the most effective way to stop mutations is vaccine in arms.  Coronovirus has no way to mutate in populations where cases are low.  I can't speak to other countries but in the US we have good vaccination rates AND high immunity (post infection) rates.  I don't see the US as anything close to a petri dish for variants at this point.  Do I wish more would get vaccinated?  Of course.  Anti-vaxxers will always be with us.  The rest of us will carry them as we always do.  The healthcare system will care for them when they get sick as they always do.  It is unfortunate, but people will make their own choices about the risks they are willing to take.  The best we can do is make choices for ourselves to minimize OUR risks and protect those who don't have those same choices (children, immunocompromised) the way that we always have.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 26, 2021, 02:08:50 PM

Yeah, I'm done with the mask after this coming weekend.  All of the restrictions are being lifted here starting next Monday.  The odds of a vaccinated person dying from Covid? I've got better odds of hitting the PowerBall jackpot 3 times* in a row playing the same numbers.  OK, I'm exaggerating a little, but you get my point.


























*It's probably more like 5 times

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 02:21:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2021, 12:06:43 PM

There's certainly nothing wrong with being considerate of other people's feelings.

I mean, I guess.

lol

Here in NC, the public mask mandate has been lifted for people who have been vaccinated; however, businesses are still free to require masks, and some certainly are.  I have been vaccinated, so I am going maskless everywhere that I can, and if I go into a business that still requires them, cool, I'll mask up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 26, 2021, 02:31:02 PM

Quote from: Chino on May 26, 2021, 11:52:13 AM

2) Everyone else is. I'm guilty of this one. I went into a store the other day, and I was the only person in there not wearing a mask. I put it on simply because I was getting shit looks, and I didn't feel like ending up on someone's social media page and getting called out for my behavior.

I have absolutely done that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 26, 2021, 02:34:20 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 01:48:27 PM

It is unfortunate, but people will make their own choices about the risks they are willing to take.  The best we can do is make choices for ourselves to minimize OUR risks and protect those who don't have those same choices (children, immunocompromised) the way that we always have.

Other than the "unfortunate" part, this is exactly how I feel. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 26, 2021, 02:35:01 PM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 02:21:11 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2021, 12:06:43 PM

There's certainly nothing wrong with being considerate of other people's feelings.

I mean, I guess.

lol

Here in NC, the public mask mandate has been lifted for people who have been vaccinated; however, businesses are still free to require masks, and some certainly are.  I have been vaccinated, so I am going maskless everywhere that I can, and if I go into a business that still requires them, cool, I'll mask up.

Exactly the same for me in N.H.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 26, 2021, 02:34:20 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 01:48:27 PM

It is unfortunate, but people will make their own choices about the risks they are willing to take.  The best we can do is make choices for ourselves to minimize OUR risks and protect those who don't have those same choices (children, immunocompromised) the way that we always have.

Other than the "unfortunate" part, this is exactly how I feel.

Well, that is taken out of the context of what I was saying.  I do feel it is unfortunate that people do not see the benefits of vaccines and that people do not care about concepts like herd immunity and putting a strain on healthcare systems with diseases that are entirely preventable.  Yes, we can go down the rabbit hole about preventative measures that people make choices about all the time (alcohol for example is a known carcinogen, yet many choose to take that risk, myself included) but the fact that we don't have small pox running rampant is thanks to vaccines.  I'm not saying that people shouldn't ultimately be in charge of their health choices.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 03:39:44 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 01:48:27 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

You can still get pregnant while on the pill
You can still catch an STI while using a condom
You can still have the sniffles while on allergy meds
You can still have an asthma attack while on inhalers
You can still have abnormal blood sugar while on insulin

You can still catch COVID after being vaccinated.

Maybe some people would rather make the choice to be overly cautious, rather than thinking everything's normal at the first opportunity.  Maybe people don't want even a mild case of COVID.  Maybe people want to do a little extra in their part to continue to drive the numbers down.  This isn't a shot at anyone here, but for all that are tossing the mask immediately, you'll never know if you catch an asymptomatic case of COVID.  Or if you spread it to anyone.  Of if they spread it.  And so on, and so on, and so on ...  Things may be great inside your own borders, but until the world is out of the woods, no one is out of the woods.  Being vaccinated =/= COVID invincibility.  This is part of the reason of my post from a couple weeks back, that I don't think I'll be going maskless (indoors in public / crowded spaces) anytime soon, even with my second dose.  You don't see businesses tearing down their plexi-glass right now, do you?

Then there are things like this from the weekend ...

'Triple mutant' Covid variant identified in the UK with 'strange gene combination' (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/triple-mutant-covid-variant-identified-24161494)
Public Health England is investigating the new variant with 49 cases found so far mainly in Yorkshire and Humber while people are being told not to be alarmed by it

For all the people that can't whip that mask of fast enough, there's going to be people who might have concerns that the US is potentially a petry-dish breeding ground for it's own variant.

I hear this and completely understand what you are saying.  I felt very strongly about all of this until very recently myself.  I think were we here in the US in a similar situation as other countries having high numbers or not doing as well with vaccine roll out, it makes perfect sense.

Honesty, I hope people continue to see the benefit of masking when ill on-going.  Imagine how less often we'd get colds and flu?  Even gastrointestinal diseases could be decreased because when you touch that tainted surface and a mask prevents you from getting the disease into your body then it is a win/win.  Keep hand washing, keep squirting that sanitizer.  Let's make this our new normal.   :tup

That said, variants can be stopped by vaccination.  Variants thus far have not jumped the vaccines.  Our T cells and B cells - for those who are vaccinated and those who have recovered from Covid - are doing their jobs.  Certainly there will never be a 100% guarantee.  Viruses mutate, this is not new.  Listening to infectious disease specialists, I'm not hearing the fear/panic about variants.  I am getting fear/panic about variants from media outlets.  The ID docs are clear that the most effective way to stop mutations is vaccine in arms.  Coronovirus has no way to mutate in populations where cases are low.  I can't speak to other countries but in the US we have good vaccination rates AND high immunity (post infection) rates.  I don't see the US as anything close to a petri dish for variants at this point.  Do I wish more would get vaccinated?  Of course.  Anti-vaxxers will always be with us.  The rest of us will carry them as we always do.  The healthcare system will care for them when they get sick as they always do. It is unfortunate, but people will make their own choices about the risks they are willing to take.  The best we can do is make choices for ourselves to minimize OUR risks and protect those who don't have those same choices (children, immunocompromised) the way that we always have.

This is all I say as well, in a nutshell.

Unfortunately, life isn't sunshine and happiness, and people are born with illnesses and diseases that make their immune system compromised entirely. But it's how life is. And I am sure, they understand and know the risks involved in living life and what is out there in the world that could potentially be fatal to them. I don't have to baby them and always be by them constantly to protect them, I know they are more than capable of handling it themselves, in the best way that is available to them, however they choose to live their life.

Quote from: Chino on May 26, 2021, 11:52:13 AM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2021, 11:47:28 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 10:56:32 AM

I know people whom are vaccinated but yet, are still choosing to continue wearing a mask and social distancing.

When they don't have to do so?

Why?

This one kind of escapes me too. I think there are two main reasons.

1) People are still legit scared. Even if they don't want to admit it, they're worried there's still a chance they'll get Covid. I think some are telling themselves "I'm doing it to protect those who can't get vaccinated", but I think that's BS in the majority of cases.
2) Everyone else is. I'm guilty of this one. I went into a store the other day, and I was the only person in there not wearing a mask. I put it on simply because I was getting shit looks, and I didn't feel like ending up on someone's social media page and getting called out for my behavior.

These are reasons they gave. Mainly using their concern for their loved ones, as that justification for their fear.

This is all related to the conditioning we got with the constant bombardment of fear that projected within the media. They played on peoples fears, and manipulated them into submission of those fears by keeping them comfortable. But if that's their reason, I won't fault them for continuing to wear a mask.

The science shows that vaccinated people are fine, and shouldn't worry at all about it, as that risk is now low. The only ones that should are the unvaccinated. And that is if they don't wear a mask. Which is their decision whether to risk their own health or not, as it always has been with regards to every risk in life.

So, if a person who is not vaccinated doesn't wear a mask and gets sick, that's on them. The responsibility lies with them if they don't mask. And the government shouldn't have to require people to wear one if it's that persons responsibility to understand the risk they're taking. This is what I was getting at with Personal Responsibility.

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 26, 2021, 02:34:20 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 01:48:27 PM

It is unfortunate, but people will make their own choices about the risks they are willing to take.  The best we can do is make choices for ourselves to minimize OUR risks and protect those who don't have those same choices (children, immunocompromised) the way that we always have.

Other than the "unfortunate" part, this is exactly how I feel.

Well, that is taken out of the context of what I was saying.  I do feel it is unfortunate that people do not see the benefits of vaccines and that people do not care about concepts like herd immunity and putting a strain on healthcare systems with diseases that are entirely preventable.  Yes, we can go down the rabbit hole about preventative measures that people make choices about all the time (alcohol for example is a known carcinogen, yet many choose to take that risk, myself included) but the fact that we don't have small pox running rampant is thanks to vaccines.  I'm not saying that people shouldn't ultimately be in charge of their health choices.

And how do they spread to people? This is where that focus should be on as well. Dealing with how people can get these diseases.

Hygiene is a good lesson here. And is what should be normalized. I see, the sanitization stations, and the sanitary measures businesses are taking to stay. And also, how important it is to have good nutrition, as malnutrition leads to illnesses that leave you susceptible to severe diseases, so we should all be getting the proper nutrition we need. And if you are sick, just stay home, and businesses should learn to let their employees stay home when sick, they could also require a doctors note to be confirmed for sick pay.

These are things we could also do, without relying on the vaccines to help us not get these diseases. I agree the vaccines work, and that's good, but there are also ways we could be doing this ourselves, and that's an entire change of mindset, which unfortunately, people do not want to actually go out and do.

And these mindsets are why we are having life struggles now...and that's another topic all together.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 26, 2021, 03:41:14 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2021, 01:37:27 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

You can still catch COVID after being vaccinated.

Well, yeah, you can.  But the odds are miniscule.  And the odds of getting really sick are even more miniscule.

The latter is correct, and is the most important thing.

The former isn't quite right, the chances of catching it are low but not miniscule, and some of the variants seem to have a higher chance of being caught even when vaccinated.

So I do understand why some people want to be cautious and considerate to others who aren't vaccinated, by wearing masks or whatever else.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 04:04:08 PM

Quote from: ariich on May 26, 2021, 03:41:14 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2021, 01:37:27 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 01:05:21 PM

You can still catch COVID after being vaccinated.

Well, yeah, you can.  But the odds are miniscule.  And the odds of getting really sick are even more miniscule.

The latter is correct, and is the most important thing.

The former isn't quite right, the chances of catching it are low but not miniscule, and some of the variants seem to have a higher chance of being caught even when vaccinated.

So I do understand why some people want to be cautious and considerate to others who aren't vaccinated, by wearing masks or whatever else.

The thing is though. The only ones that should be wearing masks, are the ones who are not vaccinated, because that helps lower their risks of catching it. It's why people whom are vaccinated can go without a mask, because their risk of a severe symptom is lower if they catch it.

It's nice people are considerate, but a person who is unvaccinated may not want to infringe on a vaccinated person from not wearing a mask and going on with life without one on. So, you are only doing yourself a disservice by choosing to continue to wear a mask and being over-considerate. As the science says, the vaccinated should be fine if they do catch the Covid-19 coronavirus.

It is now a personal concern, more so than a concern the government should get involved in. Just because people liked the comforts of masks doesn't mean it should be mandated. Businesses are concerned for their employees, and that is their discretion. It is now up to the personal concern of the person and business. The only concern, of the government, should be keeping the order and peace, and being there in times of need.

These are easing off on the measures the US government took to stop the pandemic from being an emergency and of a grand concern. And all governments have their own concern for their own people, and some are actually still in an emergency pandemic. And only that government has the decision to do whatever they feel is right and beneficial for their own people. That's basically sovereignty.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 26, 2021, 04:11:18 PM

Quote

So, you are only doing yourself a disservice by choosing to continue to wear a mask and being over-considerate.

seriously read this again and think it over, you can’t possibly think that. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 26, 2021, 04:30:26 PM

Quote from: ariich on May 26, 2021, 03:41:14 PM

and some of the variants seem to have a higher chance of being caught even when vaccinated.

But this has never been about 'if' you'd catch it or not. It's always been about not overwhelming the hospitals with the patients that are high risk so they can receive the care they need. The states that have 'opened up' have had great success with low hospitalizations and low positivity rates. We are at the point now that we are not going to overwhelm the hospitals and the vast majority of the population is going to survive Covid if they catch it. People who are vaccinated may catch it and not even know it.

While it's certainly not the end by any means......we are at a point that the tide has turned and the risks of 'opening up' aren't what they were 4-6 months ago.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 04:48:52 PM

Don't get me wrong, I hope with all hope (I'm not exactly the praying type) that the new normal with COVID is same/similar to influenza.  A few 10s of thousands of deaths per year of people in (high) risk categories.  I don't mean to sound callous in typing that, but I think that's a best case long term scenario.

I hope that this isn't the kind of virus that is a stubborn MF, and results in a few 100s of thousands of deaths a year.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2021, 05:08:31 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 26, 2021, 04:11:18 PM

Quote

So, you are only doing yourself a disservice by choosing to continue to wear a mask and being over-considerate.

seriously read this again and think it over, you can’t possibly think that.

That's according to the CDC at this point.

I am not shunning those people whom are going to the lengths to be extra considerate when they don't need to be. I don't care what they do, but great for them if they are being that considerate.

I won't go to that length. But I am considerate enough to try and cough or sneeze into my sleeve or arm. Which does prevent those germs from flying all over the room. I do wash my hands constantly when I go to the restroom, or when I touch something that might be contaminated, I am not out there just picking up random stuff from the ground without a glove. I have always done this when I go out, and have not had any illnesses where I would be stuck in bed.

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 26, 2021, 04:48:52 PM

Don't get me wrong, I hope with all hope (I'm not exactly the praying type) that the new normal with COVID is same/similar to influenza.  A few 10s of thousands of deaths per year of people in (high) risk categories.  I don't mean to sound callous in typing that, but I think that's a best case long term scenario.

I hope that this isn't the kind of virus that is a stubborn MF, and results in a few 100s of thousands of deaths a year.

It'll be unfortunate if that happens. But in the long-term, we have to look at ourselves and what we are doing that is proven to help us not be as susceptible to these severe diseases and illnesses. That is, if one cares about dying from it at all. And being considerate of others as well, and not being an egotistical ass and going out and coughing, licking, putting your nasty ass, on things or people, and where people gather and touch.

I hope as well though, that the risk becomes small enough to not be a concern for emergency and people can go on and live their lives without as much worry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 26, 2021, 11:41:56 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on May 26, 2021, 04:30:26 PM

Quote from: ariich on May 26, 2021, 03:41:14 PM

and some of the variants seem to have a higher chance of being caught even when vaccinated.

But this has never been about 'if' you'd catch it or not. It's always been about not overwhelming the hospitals with the patients that are high risk so they can receive the care they need. The states that have 'opened up' have had great success with low hospitalizations and low positivity rates. We are at the point now that we are not going to overwhelm the hospitals and the vast majority of the population is going to survive Covid if they catch it. People who are vaccinated may catch it and not even know it.

While it's certainly not the end by any means......we are at a point that the tide has turned and the risks of 'opening up' aren't what they were 4-6 months ago.

Sure, I agree with all that and I support the easing of restrictions we're seeing in our countries. I was just talking about mask wearing. Given that there's a reasonable chance a vaccinated person can still catch and transmit COVID, while it might not make them particularly unwell, they could infect someone unvaccinated. So to me, it makes sense to at least keep wearing masks until everyone who wants the vaccine has received it (or at least received the first dose). Once at that point, it pretty much becomes a matter of personal choice.

The UK is getting towards that point in our vaccine rollout - we're doing it by age and nationally we're down to 30 year olds now so it's probably just a few more weeks until all adults have been invited for their jab. And take-up has generally been strong.

Anti-vaxxer sentiments and vaccine scepticism are higher in the US, so it's possible some areas/states are already at that point.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

Which I wonder if it would have happened so quickly if the Republicans were in power still?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: MirrorMask on May 27, 2021, 05:13:00 AM

I have my appointment! On the sixth of June, at 16:00.

6 - 6 - (1)6, the vaccine of the Beast  ;D

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:35:30 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 26, 2021, 02:34:20 PM

Quote from: Harmony on May 26, 2021, 01:48:27 PM

It is unfortunate, but people will make their own choices about the risks they are willing to take.  The best we can do is make choices for ourselves to minimize OUR risks and protect those who don't have those same choices (children, immunocompromised) the way that we always have.

Other than the "unfortunate" part, this is exactly how I feel.

Well, that is taken out of the context of what I was saying.  I do feel it is unfortunate that people do not see the benefits of vaccines and that people do not care about concepts like herd immunity and putting a strain on healthcare systems with diseases that are entirely preventable.  Yes, we can go down the rabbit hole about preventative measures that people make choices about all the time (alcohol for example is a known carcinogen, yet many choose to take that risk, myself included) but the fact that we don't have small pox running rampant is thanks to vaccines.  I'm not saying that people shouldn't ultimately be in charge of their health choices.

I only excluded it because I didn't quite know how to take it.  Yes, it is unfortunate that people don't see the bigger picture sometimes.  I feel that, often.  :)   (I'm not referring to you or anything specific here, just a general gripe!)

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:36:24 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

Which I wonder if it would have happened so quickly if the Republicans were in power still?

Honestly, I think it would have happened quicker (which would have had it's own problems).   That was the basket all the eggs were in from day one, pretty much.  The "miracle cure". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:44:43 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 26, 2021, 04:11:18 PM

Quote

So, you are only doing yourself a disservice by choosing to continue to wear a mask and being over-considerate.

seriously read this again and think it over, you can’t possibly think that.

Why can't he?  I can think of a couple reasons why someone might posit that wearing a mask when you don't have to would have negative consequences.   One, the perpetuation of fear where fear isn't justified in the bigger picture.  Two, we don't want to perpetuate the thought of "well, if I still have to quarantine, I still have to wear a mask, and I still have to social distance, why SHOULD I get the vaccine and add that risk to the pile?" We know for a fact, from Fauci's mouth directly, that the CDC mask policy was at least in part a social behavior exercise, not a medical one.  Doesn't mean it's the BEST course of action, but you don't get to decide what he should think. 

I know for me, I'm headed down the path of making the mask an active part of the conversation.  Have it with me, have it visible, but put it aside if the people I'm dealing with are vaccinated and comfortable with removing them.   I'm certainly going to minimize the time I'm wearing it when there's no discernable benefit to me or those around me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:30:04 AM

being over considerate is doing a disservice to yourself. 

that’s what I was responding to because it stuck out like a slap in the face and (imo) it’s just plain wrong.  Of course he’s free to think whatever he likes that’s not the point. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 27, 2021, 06:30:48 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:36:24 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

Which I wonder if it would have happened so quickly if the Republicans were in power still?

Honestly, I think it would have happened quicker (which would have had it's own problems).   That was the basket all the eggs were in from day one, pretty much.  The "miracle cure".

Well, when you have the rhetoric from the past administration it leads to pessimism.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 27, 2021, 07:29:22 AM

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 27, 2021, 05:13:00 AM

I have my appointment! On the sixth of June, at 16:00.

6 - 6 - (1)6, the vaccine of the Beast  ;D

 :metal :metal

Go Beast!!

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 07:58:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 06:30:48 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:36:24 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

Which I wonder if it would have happened so quickly if the Republicans were in power still?

Honestly, I think it would have happened quicker (which would have had it's own problems).   That was the basket all the eggs were in from day one, pretty much.  The "miracle cure".

Well, when you have the rhetoric from the past administration it leads to pessimism.

That Harris didn't even Trust Trump, and now suddenly when Bidne is in office it's Trust Biden...

https://youtu.be/_feSqSO3YUg

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 08:17:23 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:30:04 AM

being over considerate is doing a disservice to yourself. 

that’s what I was responding to because it stuck out like a slap in the face and (imo) it’s just plain wrong.  Of course he’s free to think whatever he likes that’s not the point.

It kind of is the point, though.   If you had said "Well, I certainly understand that, but I disagree", I'd have let this go, but you apparently are baffled by the very thought that "over-consideration" could possibly be against an individuals' best interest (thought I'll note, you're still casting judgement ("it's just plain wrong")).   What is "over-consideration" other than putting others' interests exceedingly ahead of your own?  Of course that can result in a disservice to self, and sometimes to others.   Much of your political position is seemingly PREDICATED on that idea.  That's the essence of "intolerance of intolerance", basically.  "I'M offended, therefore everyone else needs to act/think differently even if it infringes on their fundamental rights, because if I tolerate that - if I'm over-considerate of that - I'm doing myself an insurmountable disservice".   And don't get me started on the concept of "my truth". 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 27, 2021, 08:25:31 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 07:58:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 06:30:48 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:36:24 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

Which I wonder if it would have happened so quickly if the Republicans were in power still?

Honestly, I think it would have happened quicker (which would have had it's own problems).   That was the basket all the eggs were in from day one, pretty much.  The "miracle cure".

Well, when you have the rhetoric from the past administration it leads to pessimism.

That Harris didn't even Trust Trump, and now suddenly when Bidne is in office it's Trust Biden...

https://youtu.be/_feSqSO3YUg

Sure, That was all about the vaccine and not about 2 sides of the government attacking each other during the election.  Ben, make an educated guess knowing what's good for you and not.  You always preach about well being, health which is 100% true and needed but also trust that the CDC has our best interest.  Not politicians. 

BTW, did you try the bleach or did you figure out on your own, it was the worst thing a politician could say for those how are afraid of medications?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 08:25:31 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 07:58:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 06:30:48 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:36:24 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

Which I wonder if it would have happened so quickly if the Republicans were in power still?

Honestly, I think it would have happened quicker (which would have had it's own problems).   That was the basket all the eggs were in from day one, pretty much.  The "miracle cure".

Well, when you have the rhetoric from the past administration it leads to pessimism.

That Harris didn't even Trust Trump, and now suddenly when Bidne is in office it's Trust Biden...

https://youtu.be/_feSqSO3YUg

Sure, That was all about the vaccine and not about 2 sides of the government attacking each other during the election.  Ben, make an educated guess knowing what's good for you and not.  You always preach about well being, health which is 100% true and needed but also trust that the CDC has our best interest.  Not politicians. 

BTW, did you try the bleach or did you figure out on your own, it was the worst thing a politician could say for those how are afraid of medications?

Hydroxychloroquine....isn't a bleach. It's a malaria drug, and it's used for Rheumatoid Arthritis, and Lupus. But, if you want to believe the media that says it's bleach then be my guest.

This information can easily be looked up on any search engine. I use duckduckgo, and I look up the Medical sites like WebMD and Mayo Clinic for information related to anything drug related.

And also, then that means it wasn't about the virus, but the election. Because why would you spew this kind of rhetoric during an emergency pandemic? Just because the guy you don't like is doing things that will help people.

What if Trump won, and got elected, would they still be screaming distrust in taking the vaccines Trump initiated?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 08:59:43 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 08:17:23 AM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:30:04 AM

being over considerate is doing a disservice to yourself. 

that’s what I was responding to because it stuck out like a slap in the face and (imo) it’s just plain wrong.  Of course he’s free to think whatever he likes that’s not the point.

It kind of is the point, though.   If you had said "Well, I certainly understand that, but I disagree", I'd have let this go, but you apparently are baffled by the very thought that "over-consideration" could possibly be against an individuals' best interest (thought I'll note, you're still casting judgement ("it's just plain wrong")).   What is "over-consideration" other than putting others' interests exceedingly ahead of your own?  Of course that can result in a disservice to self, and sometimes to others.   Much of your political position is seemingly PREDICATED on that idea.  That's the essence of "intolerance of intolerance", basically.  "I'M offended, therefore everyone else needs to act/think differently even if it infringes on their fundamental rights, because if I tolerate that - if I'm over-considerate of that - I'm doing myself an insurmountable disservice".   And don't get me started on the concept of "my truth".

This is precisely the point of that phrase. People are doing this now, with how they're taking it upon themselves to continue to mask. When the science and data shows that you don't have to if your Vaccinated.

That's being over-considerate, especially if they're doing outside when it's hot and humid and are running...

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Harmony on May 27, 2021, 09:07:34 AM

I have no problem if someone wants to be "overly-considerate."  I feel I often fall into that category myself in general.

For me the problem is when masking is presented as being considerate of others when really it is about virtue signaling to the tribe.  I'm not saying anyone here is doing that, but I have read elsewhere on social media many many times this notion that, "I will keep wearing the mask because I don't want anyone else to think I'm a republican (or anti-mask or anti-vaccine)."

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 27, 2021, 09:10:08 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

The UK's has actually been slightly faster, in terms of doses administered per head. Different strategies though (UK has an 8-12 week gap between doses whereas US has stuck with around 3 weeks), meaning UK has given at least one dose to a lot more of its population, but US has more of its population fully vaccinated.

I think if the US has been following an age-based strategy and is already offering it to teenagers, that's probably more a reflection of the proportion of people not taking it up. Take-up rates in the UK have been very high, especially among the older and more vulnerable demographics.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 27, 2021, 09:15:59 AM

I find it hard to believe you did not see the rhetoric Trump at the time and how nonchalant they were originally with covid?  BTW, Trump did say bleach.  I'm also an Independent that leans Republican but not in this instance.  Trump wasn't talking about Hydroxchloroquine.  This is what Trump said.

Trump spoke about the role he thought disinfectants could play in tackling an infection caused by the virus during a now infamous April 23 briefing.

Disinfectants.  So of course, the other side would try to take advantage of that.  This actually is the problem right now with our government.  They'd rather sling dirt at the other side for their own betterment than work together for their constituents, us. 

I also think both sides have done a poor job all together and this is just one incident.  Though I can say that the Dems have done a better job in the rollout of the vaccine. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 27, 2021, 09:17:09 AM

Quote from: ariich on May 27, 2021, 09:10:08 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

The UK's has actually been slightly faster, in terms of doses administered per head. Different strategies though (UK has an 8-12 week gap between doses whereas US has stuck with around 3 weeks), meaning UK has given at least one dose to a lot more of its population, but US has more of its population fully vaccinated.

I think if the US has been following an age-based strategy and is already offering it to teenagers, that's probably more a reflection of the proportion of people not taking it up. Take-up rates in the UK have been very high, especially among the older and more vulnerable demographics.

I didn't know about the longer gap between shots.  Why did it happen that way in GB?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: jingle.boy on May 27, 2021, 09:55:17 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 09:17:09 AM

Quote from: ariich on May 27, 2021, 09:10:08 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

The UK's has actually been slightly faster, in terms of doses administered per head. Different strategies though (UK has an 8-12 week gap between doses whereas US has stuck with around 3 weeks), meaning UK has given at least one dose to a lot more of its population, but US has more of its population fully vaccinated.

I think if the US has been following an age-based strategy and is already offering it to teenagers, that's probably more a reflection of the proportion of people not taking it up. Take-up rates in the UK have been very high, especially among the older and more vulnerable demographics.

I didn't know about the longer gap between shots.  Why did it happen that way in GB?

Scarcity of supply, and the notion that more people with one shot was better than fewer people with two shots. Same philosophy we’ve got in Canada.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 09:56:55 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again, regardless of the mistakes made, it's a medical and logistical miracle that the US and UK are where they are today.  As an American, I have a lot of things to be grateful for to be able to have a "normal" Memorial Day weekend.

I'm seeing my college roommate this weekend who I haven't seen in 1.5 years, going on a date, going to a family bbq, got a few live stream concerts over a 4 day weekend, I can't remember the last time having so much going on and the masks can come off! 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 27, 2021, 09:57:34 AM

I knew of the lack of supplies with the J&J snafu but i never read on any issue in GB.  I'll assume I wasn't looking hard enough.  Very interesting.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 09:58:01 AM

Quote from: Harmony on May 27, 2021, 09:07:34 AM

I have no problem if someone wants to be "overly-considerate."  I feel I often fall into that category myself in general.

For me the problem is when masking is presented as being considerate of others when really it is about virtue signaling to the tribe.  I'm not saying anyone here is doing that, but I have read elsewhere on social media many many times this notion that, "I will keep wearing the mask because I don't want anyone else to think I'm a republican (or anti-mask or anti-vaccine)."

I've copped to that, more or less.  Maybe not those actual labels, but certainly "stupid" or "deplorable".   I'm very sensitive to that outside of here. 

I'm also with you on "over-considerate"; I'm the guy that will pick up a grocery that's in the wrong spot and bring it back to where it belongs in the supermarket (true story; my wife laughs at me for that).  I was just pointing out that like most things in this world, it's not always without cost.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 27, 2021, 12:05:45 PM

Quote from: jingle.boy on May 27, 2021, 09:55:17 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 09:17:09 AM

Quote from: ariich on May 27, 2021, 09:10:08 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

The UK's has actually been slightly faster, in terms of doses administered per head. Different strategies though (UK has an 8-12 week gap between doses whereas US has stuck with around 3 weeks), meaning UK has given at least one dose to a lot more of its population, but US has more of its population fully vaccinated.

I think if the US has been following an age-based strategy and is already offering it to teenagers, that's probably more a reflection of the proportion of people not taking it up. Take-up rates in the UK have been very high, especially among the older and more vulnerable demographics.

I didn't know about the longer gap between shots.  Why did it happen that way in GB?

Scarcity of supply, and the notion that more people with one shot was better than fewer people with two shots. Same philosophy we’ve got in Canada.

Well, sort of. The supply has been ok, but there's also the practicalities of being able to administer so many shots at a time. But yes, a large part of the rationale was absolutely that the first shot gives most of the protection, so they prioritised getting first shots to the more vulnerable groups (over 50s, people with health conditions, and health and care workers) as quickly as possible.

At that time, there were also early indications that the AstraZeneca vaccine may be more effective with a longer gap (up to 12 weeks) between shots than 3-4 weeks. This has since been confirmed with fuller research, and it's also been found to be the case with the Pfizer one too. A bit of luck on the part of the UK but it's worked out well.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 27, 2021, 12:30:32 PM

I'm at a bit of a crossroads right now because work have decided they're bringing us all back. But since it's not "over", and there are tons of restrictions still at play, I'm not sure that they've made the right decision. Plus, the school districts are still being very noncommittal about what next year will look like. People are barely hanging on working from home while their kids are doing class virtually in many cases. Now switching school to in-person but doing so in a way where the hours are weird or truncated in some way... I don't see how that helps parents at all. Can't help but think it'll mean more people leaving the workforce in the end because they have no choice.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 27, 2021, 03:09:43 PM

The transition periods tend to be a shit show.  Transitioning from normal life to pandemic life took a couple of months for things to start running smoothly and I think transitioning back out of the pandemic will be just as topsy-turvy for a couple of months then things will smooth out and this will become a series of "outbreaks" confined to regional areas. 


We'll probably spike back up in the fall and early winter but hopefully enough people will be vaccinated by then to mitigate it to the point of nuisance rather than catastrophe like we've had over the last 15 months


Time will tell 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:39:48 PM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 08:25:31 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 07:58:27 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 06:30:48 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 27, 2021, 05:36:24 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 27, 2021, 04:39:02 AM

We are down to 12 & 15 years old in the States. That's why the lighter restrictions on masks right now. The rollout here was slightly quicker than other countries.

Which I wonder if it would have happened so quickly if the Republicans were in power still?

Honestly, I think it would have happened quicker (which would have had it's own problems).   That was the basket all the eggs were in from day one, pretty much.  The "miracle cure".

Well, when you have the rhetoric from the past administration it leads to pessimism.

That Harris didn't even Trust Trump, and now suddenly when Bidne is in office it's Trust Biden...

https://youtu.be/_feSqSO3YUg

Sure, That was all about the vaccine and not about 2 sides of the government attacking each other during the election.  Ben, make an educated guess knowing what's good for you and not.  You always preach about well being, health which is 100% true and needed but also trust that the CDC has our best interest.  Not politicians. 

BTW, did you try the bleach or did you figure out on your own, it was the worst thing a politician could say for those how are afraid of medications?

Issues of credibility come up when you recite media falsehoods like bleach injections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:49:06 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 27, 2021, 03:09:43 PM

The transition periods tend to be a shit show.  Transitioning from normal life to pandemic life took a couple of months for things to start running smoothly and I think transitioning back out of the pandemic will be just as topsy-turvy for a couple of months then things will smooth out and this will become a series of "outbreaks" confined to regional areas. 


We'll probably spike back up in the fall and early winter but hopefully enough people will be vaccinated by then to mitigate it to the point of nuisance rather than catastrophe like we've had over the last 15 months


Time will tell

I think there are more Americans with natural Immunity that happened to coincide with mass pharma injections.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:10:58 PM

so mods, are you going to do something about this or are you going to prove Dave’s point again?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 06:35:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.

But that all depends on the person and whether their bodies are able to handle whats in the medicines, and if their body doesn't have any issues that will counter-react the medicine and make it worthless or make the person actually get worse.

It's why you need to see your doctor before taking any medications. You should be seeing your nutritionist to see what nutrients you are missing or need to cut down on. You may have too much or too little of a certain nutrient, and that may be what is causing the issue you are having with your body.

Some people have found that a simple diet change works for them. And if it works for them, then I'm all for it. But what works for the other doesn't mean it will work for you. And that is something only you should be aware of, know, and understand.

It's why one would go to a doctor to see what they need to do to better their overall health.

But with the introduction of money and fortune, most doctors are not there for your health, they are there for the money. And drugs are a big business that brings in the big bucks. So they push the products as they get a commission for prescribing that medication. It's a bit of a concern when they push their products, as they are businesses that have a huge net worth.

As with anything in this life, there are good and bad people in these professions. And this that are good, really do care about you and your health and won't be pushing these products on you if something happens to work for yourself, and it heals you. They'll be for whatever heals you.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 27, 2021, 06:51:45 PM

But no doctor would say that holistic medicine is the way. They will always tell you taking care of yourself is half the battle but in a pandemic,  they will tell you to take the vaccine. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 07:47:26 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:10:58 PM

so mods, are you going to do something about this or are you going to prove Dave’s point again?

Well, I'm not really sure what Dave's point was, because he apparently thought it was better to throw a tantrum rather than man up and discuss whatever ax he had to grind. 

But as to your request to "do something about this," are you implying that we shut down a viewpoint just because you personally disagree with it?*  That isn't how we do things here.  If you disagree with his points, why don't you try stating a good argument to the contrary?


*Personally, I find his "argument" pretty ridiculous too.  But "ridiculous" isn't the standard for shutting something down.  Violating the forum rules is.  If you think a rule has been violated, please let me know which one. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: ariich on May 27, 2021, 11:36:33 PM

Yeah I was going to say the same as bosk. It may be frustrating when people appear to spout nonsense, but it isn't against the rules.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: darkshade on May 28, 2021, 05:42:02 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Were US hospitals allowed to administer, for example, HCQ to newly infected patients in the last 15 months?

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be available, but the messaging has been "We can't do anything until we have a vaccine" which then became "only the vaccine can save us!!"

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 06:56:54 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 07:47:26 PM

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:10:58 PM

so mods, are you going to do something about this or are you going to prove Dave’s point again?

Well, I'm not really sure what Dave's point was, because he apparently thought it was better to throw a tantrum rather than man up and discuss whatever ax he had to grind. 

But as to your request to "do something about this," are you implying that we shut down a viewpoint just because you personally disagree with it?*  That isn't how we do things here.  If you disagree with his points, why don't you try stating a good argument to the contrary?


*Personally, I find his "argument" pretty ridiculous too.  But "ridiculous" isn't the standard for shutting something down.  Violating the forum rules is.  If you think a rule has been violated, please let me know which one. 

I'm not on board with the above argument either, for the record, so I'm not defending it.   But just "spouting nonsense" WASN'T, I don't think, Dave's point. Dave did, frequently, respond to "nonsense" with a good argument to the contrary.  That is one of his skills, whether you agree with him or not.  I think Dave's point was more that he felt - rightly or wrongly - that the "nonsense" was sometimes treated with as much or more deference than the good argument depending on the side from which each came.  I don't know whether I agree with that or not, but I do know from personal experience that, in general, Xe is not very tolerant about ideas that conflict with his own world view.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 06:59:46 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 28, 2021, 05:42:02 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Were US hospitals allowed to administer, for example, HCQ to newly infected patients in the last 15 months?

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be available, but the messaging has been "We can't do anything until we have a vaccine" which then became "only the vaccine can save us!!"

I thought HCQ was shown not to work.   "The results showed no evidence that previous treatment with HCQ had a beneficial effect on COVID-19 mortality. (https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/resources/news-and-research/hydroxychloroquine-covid-preventive-still-news)"

Whether "$$$$" were involved or not, the vaccine is really the only thing we have at this point.   THat's the thing I can't quite wrap my arms around about the anti-vaxxers; even if it DOES insert microchips (it doesn't), even if it DOES rearrange your DNA (it doesn't), even if it DOES make your arm magnetic (it doesn't), even if any of those bad things happen, isn't it still worth the risk to give you more time on the planet?  You can die tomorrow of COVID, or your masturbating habits can be tracked over the next 30 years and there's a chance you could turn into Spider-Man.  Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 07:20:13 AM

California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: TAC on May 28, 2021, 07:21:44 AM

Yeah, they could just plow it into some HCQ treatments.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 07:30:00 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 06:35:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.

I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 07:45:43 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 07:20:13 AM

California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

On my local TV news, it said Cali was giving $50 gift cards to the next 2,000,000 that get the vaccine.  Is that accurate?  And if so, can I get a third shot NOW?

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 28, 2021, 07:47:19 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 07:45:43 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 07:20:13 AM

California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

On my local TV news, it said Cali was giving $50 gift cards to the next 2,000,000 that get the vaccine.  Is that accurate?  And if so, can I get a third shot NOW?

Offer guys a blue pill for a year free so they can give out shots too.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 28, 2021, 08:02:10 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 06:59:46 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 28, 2021, 05:42:02 AM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Were US hospitals allowed to administer, for example, HCQ to newly infected patients in the last 15 months?

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be available, but the messaging has been "We can't do anything until we have a vaccine" which then became "only the vaccine can save us!!"

I thought HCQ was shown not to work.   "The results showed no evidence that previous treatment with HCQ had a beneficial effect on COVID-19 mortality. (https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/resources/news-and-research/hydroxychloroquine-covid-preventive-still-news)"

Whether "$$$$" were involved or not, the vaccine is really the only thing we have at this point.   THat's the thing I can't quite wrap my arms around about the anti-vaxxers; even if it DOES insert microchips (it doesn't), even if it DOES rearrange your DNA (it doesn't), even if it DOES make your arm magnetic (it doesn't), even if any of those bad things happen, isn't it still worth the risk to give you more time on the planet?  You can die tomorrow of COVID, or your masturbating habits can be tracked over the next 30 years and there's a chance you could turn into Spider-Man.  Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Keyword is mortality and they were trying anything at that time to try and stop that mortality.

If caught early enough, and treated before any worse symptoms happen, it's worked for some people. That's the keyword, Some. It actually was useful for some people. And those were people that were not, pretty much, on their death beds.

If someone is already in bad shape, I doubt the vaccine will help them in the long run. There's people with severe cancer, and people have other illnesses they will most likely end up dying from regardless if they take the vaccine or not. I actually know people whom have passed on due to their already bad conditions.

The vaccine isn't here to prevent death. It won't stop people from dying and won't give people eternal life.

If it did, I still wouldn't take it, because death is a part of life and nature. Everything on this earth dies sometime. Nothing is eternal, and will never ever be eternal. That's just how egotistical and narcissistic we humans think we are immortal and can live forever. (it's the entire concept of 'BE')

And I already explained my reasoning for why people ended up fearing an illness, that was exposed and consistently on the news and tv. Imagine if we didn't have TV, and just had the Newspapers?

Personally, I find it hilarious how they're so desperately trying to get people to submit and take the vaccine, or their products, that they're going to lengths to bribe people into getting one. And using "Science" and "Belief" as a guise, and using it against the people for their own purpose of getting the world vaccinated.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 08:10:59 AM

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 07:45:43 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 07:20:13 AM

California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

On my local TV news, it said Cali was giving $50 gift cards to the next 2,000,000 that get the vaccine.  Is that accurate?  And if so, can I get a third shot NOW?

Yup, that's part of it. And her I was being a simp and getting it at first chance for the whole saving my life thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 28, 2021, 08:19:39 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 07:30:00 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 06:35:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.

I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.

This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

And that is Faith, and Trust.

So people in general have faith and trust in science and believe in it, that it ends up being a form of belief system. Which is how other cultures and religions view their beliefs, faith, and trust.

These cultures have stories, and legends, and myths, that all describe life. The Christian and Catholic religions have the bible, because those humans invented a writing system that the world has been forced to understand and know. Yet other languages and writing systems are not.

 So how can people say they understand and know, when they don't even understand and can't comprehend these other cultures and their beliefs, faiths, and trust.

This is why I feel vaccines are not the end all answer to our health situations and diseases we have currently. I can give you my perspective, but that doesn't mean you will understand, comprehend, and believe in what I am telling you.

These diseases and illnesses are here and happen because of what we humans do. They're consequences and the effects of our decisions and choices in life. So for me, we have no one to blame but our own arrogance and greed and lust for power that caused all of us to be where we are today. Struggling to heal the Earth so we could live our lives happy and free...

Sorry for the long posts....But this is what I think and it's my perspective on life and where we are currently, and the struggles we face as the human species.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2021, 09:10:03 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 07:30:00 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 06:35:25 PM

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM

Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.

I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.

No. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 28, 2021, 09:10:54 AM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 27, 2021, 03:09:43 PM

The transition periods tend to be a shit show.  Transitioning from normal life to pandemic life took a couple of months for things to start running smoothly and I think transitioning back out of the pandemic will be just as topsy-turvy for a couple of months then things will smooth out and this will become a series of "outbreaks" confined to regional areas. 


We'll probably spike back up in the fall and early winter but hopefully enough people will be vaccinated by then to mitigate it to the point of nuisance rather than catastrophe like we've had over the last 15 months


Time will tell

Yeah. I'm a little worried though because the transition to lockdown life seems to veer towards "ok, people are dealing with a lot, let's give everyone a lot of slack", and I just worry that won't be true as we transition back to "the new normal". Even now, in the twilight of the "Work From Home Era", I'm seeing way less tolerance before. As an anecdote, our management just decided they wanted everyone's cameras on all the time during all meetings, and the number of meetings has increased despite to where it's back to 4-6 hours of meetings for me most days. It's hell. Thank god my kid is not home right now because there is no way I could do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 28, 2021, 09:27:18 AM

I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 09:39:31 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:27:18 AM

I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.

At the Whole Foods I work my second job at, we have around 400 employees. During the peak here between Dec and Jan, we probably had north of 20 people test positive, but through tracing it was shown that none of them were an employee to employee transmission. I feel that spoke volumes to the protocols that the store put into place concerning masking and sanitation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: King Postwhore on May 28, 2021, 09:47:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 09:39:31 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:27:18 AM

I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.

At the Whole Foods I work my second job at, we have around 400 employees. During the peak here between Dec and Jan, we probably had north of 20 people test positive, but through tracing it was shown that none of them were an employee to employee transmission. I feel that spoke volumes to the protocols that the store put into place concerning masking and sanitation.

My own opinion is that most caught it in a private environment.  Not in large corporations who set protocols correctly. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 28, 2021, 08:19:39 AM

I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.

This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

And that is Faith, and Trust.

So people in general have faith and trust in science and believe in it, that it ends up being a form of belief system. Which is how other cultures and religions view their beliefs, faith, and trust.

These cultures have stories, and legends, and myths, that all describe life. The Christian and Catholic religions have the bible, because those humans invented a writing system that the world has been forced to understand and know. Yet other languages and writing systems are not.

 So how can people say they understand and know, when they don't even understand and can't comprehend these other cultures and their beliefs, faiths, and trust.

This is why I feel vaccines are not the end all answer to our health situations and diseases we have currently. I can give you my perspective, but that doesn't mean you will understand, comprehend, and believe in what I am telling you.

These diseases and illnesses are here and happen because of what we humans do. They're consequences and the effects of our decisions and choices in life. So for me, we have no one to blame but our own arrogance and greed and lust for power that caused all of us to be where we are today. Struggling to heal the Earth so we could live our lives happy and free...

Sorry for the long posts....But this is what I think and it's my perspective on life and where we are currently, and the struggles we face as the human species.
[/quote]

I have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

Now let's talk about flat-earth - what is this "belief" based on? Bullshit - that's what because there is no scientific data supporting the flat-earth belief but you know what flat earthers could do? Charter a boat, bring some real scientists, document the data and find the edge of the earth but there is no way they would do this because they're lazy. They just want the luxury of saying they are right and everyone else is wrong simply because they "feel" that they are right. They run from the hard work it takes to come up with a working scientific theory. But if they did this and came up with hard data, I would then have to reconsider. Sp
oiler alert - they won't.

I don't dismiss the power of nature to help with healing and I absolutely agree that we hurt ourselves with poor dieting habits, smoking etc. I'm with you in this.

But I also don't believe in woo......

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 10:54:37 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:47:33 AM

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 09:39:31 AM

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:27:18 AM

I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.

At the Whole Foods I work my second job at, we have around 400 employees. During the peak here between Dec and Jan, we probably had north of 20 people test positive, but through tracing it was shown that none of them were an employee to employee transmission. I feel that spoke volumes to the protocols that the store put into place concerning masking and sanitation.

My own opinion is that most caught it in a private environment.  Not in large corporations who set protocols correctly.

It was stated many times that the top spreader events were family gatherings.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Skeever on May 28, 2021, 11:04:05 AM

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:49:06 PM

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 27, 2021, 03:09:43 PM

The transition periods tend to be a shit show.  Transitioning from normal life to pandemic life took a couple of months for things to start running smoothly and I think transitioning back out of the pandemic will be just as topsy-turvy for a couple of months then things will smooth out and this will become a series of "outbreaks" confined to regional areas. 


We'll probably spike back up in the fall and early winter but hopefully enough people will be vaccinated by then to mitigate it to the point of nuisance rather than catastrophe like we've had over the last 15 months


Time will tell

I think there are more Americans with natural Immunity that happened to coincide with mass pharma injections.

If you really think this, I would say you are underappreciating the experiences others have had. And this is nothing new or unique to you. I've noticed this on both sides of the "two worlds" we live in since the pandemic. There are people who never really stopped doing what they were doing before, only with some added restrictions, who think "you're kidding right" when they run into people who have been locked down and only going out occasionally. And then there are people who have not left their homes for anything but bare essentials, oblivious to the reality that a great number of people are just living life almost normally. Because of my own family situation, my family has pretty much been in the "lockdown" category, and we aren't the only ones. My wife and I have often talked about how it seems like every other family we know are either doing what we do, or not doing anything differently than before. But there is no way the many tens of millions of people who've been "locked down" developed any kind of natural immunity like that. Given your opinions on the subject, I would not be surprised if I learned that you did not change a single thing about your lifestyle that you were not forced to change during the pandemic. That would be your choice, one I do not really respect, but at least maybe understand on some level. But just because you or others may have been that way does not mean you get to erase the lived experiences of millions of others who have followed the advice more or less and dismiss the vaccination efforts as "natural immunity". But I would also guess that there is absolutely no way of explaining statistically what we have seen in the last several months without considering the role of vaccines, either, no matter how you may personally feel about "big pharma".

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 28, 2021, 11:29:43 AM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

Now let's talk about flat-earth - what is this "belief" based on? Bullshit - that's what because there is no scientific data supporting the flat-earth belief but you know what flat earthers could do? Charter a boat, bring some real scientists, document the data and find the edge of the earth but there is no way they would do this because they're lazy. They just want the luxury of saying they are right and everyone else is wrong simply because they "feel" that they are right. They run from the hard work it takes to come up with a working scientific theory. But if they did this and came up with hard data, I would then have to reconsider. Spoiler alert - they won't.

But, this was the science and belief held by some people before they were able to, you know, fly and travel the world. Before that man, took the initiative, to build a machine, or charter a boat, and set out to see for himself. And yet, people still didn't believe him, their Trust wasn't there for them to Believe his word, and take his word for it.

Science is based wholeheartedly on Trust. And Distrust, is why you have other scientists going out to disprove the others words, and findings.

Science, may very well end up proving a religion was created out of a lie, and it is in fact, a cult that grew immensely. Because people, in turn, took one mans words as Gospel.

Unless, that man was in fact an alien that came from a UFO.... :corn

It's damn near impossible for the average man to just charter a boat, bring in "real scientists", document the data, and find the edge of the earth. It's costs money, and resources, and resources and money are not infinite. And honestly, if I could easily do it, I definitely would. I think a lot of people most definitely would be glad to.

If you actually look up at the sky and look from East to West to North to South, you can see a sort of a spherical quality to the atmosphere. Just looking at the pattern the sun moves from East to West, should tell you this. The Sun in winter is shorter, and longer in the summer, meaning short and longer days. The Sun rises more south in winter, and more North in the summer.  And the moon also has its cycles, that sometimes correlate with the sun and this causes Eclipses. This understanding came from living. And when that living was disrupted, so was that knowledge disrupted from being taught.

So I don't know how you can't understand this just from looking and living in the world...Must not be paying attention at all to life, and living in the cave with a veil over the eyes. They probably just need to get outside more.  :lol

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

I have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

I agree, and understand the benefits of vaccines. I just don't see them as the end all solution to the issues we have regarding our health and diseases. The ideas, and solutions, that we could take, that I feel and know we can do, are more long term, and are not easy, quick-fix solutions. These require hard-work and dedication, and really, an entire change of mindset....Myself included.

Because, we as humans, create our own problems, and can therefore, create solutions that can solve these problems. Without, turning to "The Other" or reliance on an outside entity. I do believe there is an outside entity, but also, that outside entity, wants us to do as much as we can do ourselves, without relying on it for sustenance. And that's all it wants us to realize and do, so that we can have a world where every living thing can have their freedoms and live peacefully, not just humans live on this world. Yet, for some reason, we believe we own it and can control it. Yet, the world always proves us wrong.


My issue with current Science is this...How where those "Scientists" to figure out the other "uncivilized" cultures didn't understand and know that same "Science", when they assumed them to be savage and less than capable of grasping the knowledge they are so proud of knowing and regarding themselves as the know-all-end-all true way of knowing and understanding?


By the way, I am appreciating you responding. It's good that we can have these discussions civilly.  :tup

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 12:22:27 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

The problem is, of course, that there is a difference between the data itself - fact, not belief - and the conclusions drawn from that data.   I have written about this numerous times:  I have ZERO DOUBT that the average temperatures of the Earth is higher now than it was 100 or 200 years ago.  It's not up for discussion.   I have ZERO DOUBT that the polar ice caps are smaller now in the same timeframe.  This isn't opinion; it can be measured, and those measurements replicated accordingly.   But then there is the next step:  what does that MEAN, and who/what caused it?   For me personally there is LITTLE doubt -  not zero, but damn close - that mankind had some role in that.  Then there's the "what role?" question.   1%?  50%?  100%?  I have a lot of doubt that it's 100%.  Now we're veering into trust and belief.   And I will say this, I've had to work VERY hard to separate my position on our percentage role from the agenda of MANY scientists around the world.  Many are very good, and deal only in data and decisions.  Others, not so much, and we undoubtedly live in an age of skepticism, cyncism and hyperbole.  Even the great (no sarcasm) Dr. Fauci copped to engaging in this.   There are too many people that take the approach that "moderation doesn't get the job done".   It doesn't "catch eyeballs".   

And then, of course, you get to the "what should we do about it" and at that point I'm fading out, because for me, that's, at least here in the States, an almost entirely political discussion.   Unfortunately, in our divisive, dysfunctional environment, the "SCIENCE!" card gets thrown around a lot.  "You don't agree with carbon taxing?  DENIER!"   That, of course, is not at all helped by idiots like Jim Inhoff, walking into the Congressional chambers with a snowball and making snide remarks about the entire concept.

Quote

I have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

I don't dismiss the power of nature to help with healing and I absolutely agree that we hurt ourselves with poor dieting habits, smoking etc. I'm with you in this.

But I also don't believe in woo......

I deleted the flat-earth part, because it's a sort of more basic, more extreme example.  But that's not what we're talking about, and they shouldn't be conflated.  I don't know if you read Robert Ludlum, but he wrote the book on which "The Bourne Identity" is based.  I happen to love his writing, and I'm actually in the process of re-reading his bibliography.   I've read now 11 of his books over the past two months or so, and if I had a $1.00 for every paragraph that I thought "My god, I need to post that at DTF!", I'd be able to have Dream Theater play in my back yard.  I might even be able to pay Portnoy to show up, too.  All because what he wrote in a spy novel in 1977 is almost word-for-word applicable in today's environment. The idea of the vaccine conspiracy is FAR different than flat-earth theory.   

Who hasn't worked at a company where there are discussions going at the boss's boss's level, and you know you're not getting the whole story?   Who hasn't seen a movie (or TV show) where the "official version" and the "real version" are wildly different?   Now I get it, in the books and movies and TV there's a suspension of reality, where there aren't whistleblowers, there aren't office gossips, there isn't a huge social media presence (and when there is, it's dumbed down ridiculously), but there are a LOT of people that "feel" this all day every day. If it's in YOUR life at YOUR level, is it really that big a leap to suspect that it's in government, where there are elected offices, and MILLIONS of dollars at play?

Quick quiz, show of hands:  how many of you think that it's PLAUSIBLE that a CEO, when asked "what should we do with that toxic waste?" would answer "dump it down the drain and DON'T TELL ANYONE."?    Okay, everyone except Stadler.  Good.   Now change "CEO" to "Senator" and change "toxic waste" and plug in "all that cell phone data we get from the NSA?"   I don't know; maybe monitor it?  We KNOW that's happened, right?  Is it that much of a stretch to think that a Senator or a CEO would then fuck around with the government-led, but involving Big Pharma vaccine rollout?  I'm not arguing that it happened.  I don't think it did (I'm an Occam's Razor guy, to a point) but it's not always as bat-shit crazy as some people make it out to be.   Hell, Hoover allegedly used his files to blackmail half of all three branches if you believe the tales (and Ludlum's The Chancellor Manuscript). 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 12:52:30 PM

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 12:22:27 PM

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

The problem is, of course, that there is a difference between the data itself - fact, not belief - and the conclusions drawn from that data.   I have written about this numerous times:  I have ZERO DOUBT that the average temperatures of the Earth is higher now than it was 100 or 200 years ago.  It's not up for discussion.   I have ZERO DOUBT that the polar ice caps are smaller now in the same timeframe.  This isn't opinion; it can be measured, and those measurements replicated accordingly.   But then there is the next step:  what does that MEAN, and who/what caused it?   For me personally there is LITTLE doubt -  not zero, but damn close - that mankind had some role in that.  Then there's the "what role?" question.   1%?  50%?  100%?  I have a lot of doubt that it's 100%.  Now we're veering into trust and belief.   And I will say this, I've had to work VERY hard to separate my position on our percentage role from the agenda of MANY scientists around the world.  Many are very good, and deal only in data and decisions.  Others, not so much, and we undoubtedly live in an age of skepticism, cyncism and hyperbole.  Even the great (no sarcasm) Dr. Fauci copped to engaging in this.   There are too many people that take the approach that "moderation doesn't get the job done".   It doesn't "catch eyeballs".   

And then, of course, you get to the "what should we do about it" and at that point I'm fading out, because for me, that's, at least here in the States, an almost entirely political discussion.   Unfortunately, in our divisive, dysfunctional environment, the "SCIENCE!" card gets thrown around a lot.  "You don't agree with carbon taxing?  DENIER!"   That, of course, is not at all helped by idiots like Jim Inhoff, walking into the Congressional chambers with a snowball and making snide remarks about the entire concept.

Quote

I have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

I don't dismiss the power of nature to help with healing and I absolutely agree that we hurt ourselves with poor dieting habits, smoking etc. I'm with you in this.

But I also don't believe in woo......

I deleted the flat-earth part, because it's a sort of more basic, more extreme example.  But that's not what we're talking about, and they shouldn't be conflated.  I don't know if you read Robert Ludlum, but he wrote the book on which "The Bourne Identity" is based.  I happen to love his writing, and I'm actually in the process of re-reading his bibliography.   I've read now 11 of his books over the past two months or so, and if I had a $1.00 for every paragraph that I thought "My god, I need to post that at DTF!", I'd be able to have Dream Theater play in my back yard.  I might even be able to pay Portnoy to show up, too.  All because what he wrote in a spy novel in 1977 is almost word-for-word applicable in today's environment. The idea of the vaccine conspiracy is FAR different than flat-earth theory.   

Who hasn't worked at a company where there are discussions going at the boss's boss's level, and you know you're not getting the whole story?   Who hasn't seen a movie (or TV show) where the "official version" and the "real version" are wildly different?   Now I get it, in the books and movies and TV there's a suspension of reality, where there aren't whistleblowers, there aren't office gossips, there isn't a huge social media presence (and when there is, it's dumbed down ridiculously), but there are a LOT of people that "feel" this all day every day. If it's in YOUR life at YOUR level, is it really that big a leap to suspect that it's in government, where there are elected offices, and MILLIONS of dollars at play?

Quick quiz, show of hands:  how many of you think that it's PLAUSIBLE that a CEO, when asked "what should we do with that toxic waste?" would answer "dump it down the drain and DON'T TELL ANYONE."?    Okay, everyone except Stadler.  Good.   Now change "CEO" to "Senator" and change "toxic waste" and plug in "all that cell phone data we get from the NSA?"   I don't know; maybe monitor it?  We KNOW that's happened, right?  Is it that much of a stretch to think that a Senator or a CEO would then fuck around with the government-led, but involving Big Pharma vaccine rollout?  I'm not arguing that it happened.  I don't think it did (I'm an Occam's Razor guy, to a point) but it's not always as bat-shit crazy as some people make it out to be.   Hell, Hoover allegedly used his files to blackmail half of all three branches if you believe the tales (and Ludlum's The Chancellor Manuscript).

First - I did not write the first part of this post in bold and the way this was posted, it looks like I did write it.

To the second part of you're post, I have no clue what you're trying to get at.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 28, 2021, 01:14:36 PM

Sorry to interrupt, but this thread is pretty damn long. New one incoming.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: XJDenton on May 28, 2021, 01:16:06 PM

New thread: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56501