Trayvon Martin

[KevShmev]

I am surprised there isn't a thread on this yet, but maybe there should be?

Anyway, this whole thing has become a complete mess, and I wonder whether we will ever know what really happened.  It is a tragedy no matter how you look at it, but I hate tools like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson getting half of the country worked up with their usual bull crap, but you know them, they always need a cause.

But yeah, should be interesting to see if charges are brought against Zimmerman.  And what charges. 

[Ben_Jamin]

The police were wrong in not doing an investigation. But I also know not to jump to conclusions, since the kid could have gotten upset he was following him and started talking shit, because of the Teenage brain thinking they know it all. but also, I'm amazed he wasn't at least charged with disobeying a cop, which he ignored and caused it all on himself.

What upsets me isn't the tragedy but the publics reaction. it amazes me how much people follow blindly. Also the media knew people would get worked up that's why they used either the innocent kid picture or the gangsta kid one.

I feel bad for the kid, but life continues.

[j]

I agree, the details of what actually went down are somewhat ambiguous, and at this point with so many outside interests involved, it's only going to get muddier.

Bottom line so far appears to be that the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue, and he did.  At that point, he was no longer acting in self-defense, regardless of what Martin did to him (if anything) and regardless of whether or not his use of deadly force can be justified.

Absolutely tragic that this kid lost his life, but of course it has to turn into a clusterfuck of one side yelling "racism" and another decrying the kid's reputation.  Too bad.

-J

[SystematicThought]

I guess I am confused by the whole thing and what happened.

A New Orleans cop resigned after a comment he made on the story
https://www.mycenturylink.com/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9TP52QO0%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=931


EDIT: I've been looking into it some more. It's sad about what happened, but the guy says that Trayvon attacked him. What a mess!

[Chino]

I read this morning that Trayvon supposedly tackled him to the ground and started punching the guy.

[El Barto]

There's been some discussion already in the chat thread,
starting with: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=327.msg1250734#msg1250734

I'm amazed he wasn't at least charged with disobeying a cop, which he ignored and caused it all on himself.

There's no law against disobeying a 911 operator, because, well fuck those guys.

[gmillerdrake]

Bottom line so far appears to be that the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue, and he did.  At that point, he was no longer acting in self-defense, regardless of what Martin did to him (if anything) and regardless of whether or not his use of deadly force can be justified.

Absolutely not true. If I hear someone trying to break into my house and the 911 lady tells me to stay in my room but I still go downstairs because I'm not going to let some meth head get in and possibly harm my family, I shoot him....that's still self defense.

Zimmerman followed this guy because he was the Neighborhood watch captain of a gated community who had a string of thefts. The guy ditched him, Zimmerman turned to go back to his car and then the 6'-3" guy pops out, talks smack, sucker punches the 5'-9" Zimmerman to the ground, pounces on him and begins to pummel him. That has been backed up by the injuries Zimmerman sustained and witnesses. Absolute self defense. Dispatchers aren't Law Enforcment, they work for them but disobeying them isn't a 'crime'.
  It is sad that that young man, who as each day passes we learn more and more about, is dead. It is. Just as sad is how the national media has obviously turned this into the race thing once again, like they tried with the 3 white Duke lacross players and the poor little black girl they 'raped'. And we saw what a couple weeks of actuall vetting the story did, that case vanished and those players where exhonerated and compensated after being trashed by the national media, Duke and everyone else. Much like Zimmerman will, and he isn't even white. When all the FACTS are out I think it will become perfectly clear this shooting was justified and that poor young man paid the ultimate price for poor decisions. By all accounts from friends and family, Zimmerman is torn up by doing this and by how he's being portrayed as some cold hearted murderer. But no one thinks or gives a rats ass about him or his family. It's all about the race card....
   

and at this point with so many outside interests involved, it's only going to get muddier.

That is what is fueling this "story" now. Outside interests and people who see a chance to scavange off of this trajedy. The a$$hat Schumer in NY wanting to essentially scrap a law that a completely different state voted on and passed, every anti gun Joe Schmo and a blog is out there hooting and hollering about vigilante justice....it's a freaking joke. It's a small town story that's where it should have stayed. No business being a national headline...none at all. But that's a completely different thread and topic....

[El Barto]

GMD: As a pro-gun person, you of all people should have an issue with unnecessary laws mucking up the books.  The people who prosecute laws in Florida were opposed to the so-called Stand Your Ground Law because it wasn't needed and only served to clutter up the issue.  In this instance, if what you suggest is actually what happened (and I'm inclined to agree with you that it was), then it's a simple matter of self defense and Zimmerman goes free.  The problem is that in an effort to appease a lobby group you're probably very familiar with, they've introduced a law that prohibited them from investigating the matter further, and as it should ideally be done, letting a jury establish whether or not Zimmerman was justified.  Schumer might well be out of line for meddling in Florida's business, but if he's saying that SYG type legislation needs to be reevaluated, he's absolutely correct. 

[KevShmev]

The worst thing about the media in this is every time they show a picture of the two, you see a picture of Zimmerman from 7 years ago (when he was 40 lbs heavier) and a picture of Martin from when he was like 11 or 12, so people get this image of this big beefy grown-up killing some small, defenseless child, which sounds horrible no matter how you slice it. 

[j]

Bottom line so far appears to be that the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue, and he did.  At that point, he was no longer acting in self-defense, regardless of what Martin did to him (if anything) and regardless of whether or not his use of deadly force can be justified.

Absolutely not true. If I hear someone trying to break into my house and the 911 lady tells me to stay in my room but I still go downstairs because I'm not going to let some meth head get in and possibly harm my family, I shoot him....that's still self defense.

He was not in Zimmerman's (or anyone's) house, nor was he posing any immediate threat to anyone.

The guy ditched him, Zimmerman turned to go back to his car and then the 6'-3" guy pops out, talks smack, sucker punches the 5'-9" Zimmerman to the ground, pounces on him and begins to pummel him. That has been backed up by the injuries Zimmerman sustained and witnesses.

This may be true, but I have not heard or read these details.  And the height of the parties involved is totally irrelevant.  And of course it isn't a crime to ignore a 911 dispatcher, no one suggested it was.  It only implies that if Zimmerman felt his life was in danger, it was after he followed the kid for a certain distance based on his own suspicion.  Again, at this point, the details will probably never be known for certain, so it's all conjecture to some degree.  The truth probably lies somewhere between "Martin was completely innocent, was startled by someone following him, and was shot when he tried to confront his pursuer" and "Martin beat Zimmerman to within an inch of his life and was shot only as an absolute last resort."

I agree with most of the rest of your post.

-J

[SystematicThought]

The worst thing about the media in this is every time they show a picture of the two, you see a picture of Zimmerman from 7 years ago (when he was 40 lbs heavier) and a picture of Martin from when he was like 11 or 12, so people get this image of this big beefy grown-up killing some small, defenseless child, which sounds horrible no matter how you slice it. 

Gotta play to people's emotions, but I agree completely with you. The 11 year old Trayvon pictures that are out there do not compare to the 6 foot 3 Trayvon that was shot.

[KevShmev]

  Dispatchers aren't Law Enforcment, they work for them but disobeying them isn't a 'crime'.
 

QFT.  It drives me nuts every time I hear someone say, "He was told by the police not to follow Trayvon."  No, a 911 dispatcher (see: NOT the police) said, "We don't need you to do that," in regards to Zimmerman following him.  And we still do not know if Zimmerman did stop following him or not after that.  And we may never know.  Sadly.

[gmillerdrake]

GMD: As a pro-gun person, you of all people should have an issue with unnecessary laws mucking up the books.  The people who prosecute laws in Florida were opposed to the so-called Stand Your Ground Law because it wasn't needed and only served to clutter up the issue.  In this instance, if what you suggest is actually what happened (and I'm inclined to agree with you that it was), then it's a simple matter of self defense and Zimmerman goes free.  The problem is that in an effort to appease a lobby group you're probably very familiar with, they've introduced a law that prohibited them from investigating the matter further, and as it should ideally be done, letting a jury establish whether or not Zimmerman was justified.  Schumer might well be out of line for meddling in Florida's business, but if he's saying that SYG type legislation needs to be reevaluated, he's absolutely correct.

You are right El Barto, good post. I will admit that my emotion was fueling a lot of that post....just realy angry at the cup game the media is playing with this story and not really 'reporting' it. From doing what Kev just mentioned with the pictures to all but burying the young boys questionalble tweets and stories about his recent behavior and run ins with the law.
  A perfect example of how bad the 'mainstream' media is at reporting this....I hadn't heard that they couldn't even investigate the matter any further. That is an 'odd' addition to that law. Even here in Missouri where we have the Castle Doctrine giving us the right to inflict deadly force on our property, including vehicles, cars, yards etc., there still is an element of having to 'prove' you were justified and it can be investigated and prosecuted. Not likely, but it can be. Thanks for shining the light on that for me.

And J, please notice I admit that my post was a bit emotionally influenced. I get riled up about these type of stories because 9 out of 10 that make it to the national stage paint the 'shooter' as a monster.....the truth is what you say. I don't think we will ever know.

[El Barto]

I didn't mean to suggest that they couldn't investigate further.  I shouldn't have implied that.  What I meant was that based on their interpretation of the law, there was likely no reason to investigate further because he was [legally] in the right.

And I've noticed the same thing about the pictures.  Zimmerman's looks like a mugshot in a prison jumper, and Trayvon looks like he should be playing T-ball at the park.  Due to the sensationalized nature of this, a lot of people are going to be pissed at the outcome, whatever it may be.

[orcus116]

I find the racial outcry more tragic and frightening than the actual death.

[antigoon]

This whole thing is a giant clusterfuck, I really have no idea what to think. Stand Your Ground laws are pretty rotten, though.

[gmillerdrake]

I didn't mean to suggest that they couldn't investigate further.  I shouldn't have implied that.  What I meant was that based on their interpretation of the law, there was likely no reason to investigate further because he was [legally] in the right.

And I've noticed the same thing about the pictures.  Zimmerman's looks like a mugshot in a prison jumper, and Trayvon looks like he should be playing T-ball at the park.  Due to the sensationalized nature of this, a lot of people are going to be pissed at the outcome, whatever it may be.

Ahhh...I gotcha. From the dozen or so Self defense shooting i hear about here in StL that take place in Missouri each year, the consensus I take from it is that it really isn't taken too much further either once the story is corroborated. Although I'd say 99% of them involve some thug or meth head breaking into someones home...not too many just out and about like this one.

This story really illustrates the sad state of affairs that our national media has deteriorated too. It's been bad for a while, then when things like this hit...it is blatantly obvious just how bad it is.

I find the racial outcry more tragic and frightening than the actual death.

As do I. It's sad to say but had this been a black man who had shot a young white guy....this story is never heard of outside the local paper.

[orcus116]

Hard to say, though every time a story like this breaks and gets big I always think of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

Just doesn't sell enough headlines I 'spose.

[gmillerdrake]

Hard to say, though every time a story like this breaks and gets big I always think of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

Just doesn't sell enough headlines I 'spose.

Nope. I saw this story floating around FaceBook today pretty much asking the same thing. Any news organization that covered that for more than a segment would be considered racist against black people and that's the truth. There is a large double standard and a fear of being considered racist towards black people. It's perfectly fine to 'go after' all but black or muslim though. 
  And I want to clarify something in case it has been lost....I think it's tragic that young man lost his life. I feel for his family and I can't imagine thier pain. It's horrible. But at the same time I feel for Zimmerman as well because I cant' imagine taking someones life either...especially someone so young.

[orcus116]

And the fact that you have race mongers like Spike Lee retweeting your address on a couple of occasions.

[El Barto]

To be fair, this actually is a damned fascinating story, so it's hard to fault the media for jumping all over it (eventually).  It certainly does seem that they're trying to make it more divisive that need be, but that's not real surprising. 

Also, if people haven't read Scheavo's and my discussion in the chat thread, another aspect of this that nobody's considering is that Trayvon probably had just as much right to act in self defense as Zimmerman did.  People want to look at it as if he got what he deserved for starting shit, but Zimmerman was chasing him when he had done nothing whatsoever but walk to his home in the rain.  The likelihood is that Trayvon felt just as threatened as Zimmerman did, and with just as much good reason, giving him the same right to confront GZ as GZ was exercising.  The time honored rule of Don't Start None/Won't Be None goes both ways in this instance, which is why I'm hesitant to dismiss Zimmerman's actions outright. 

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

I have no idea what to think about the whole thing.  The information is flying all over the place at a rapid rate.

However, wearing a hoodie in your Twitter avatar does not make you a social activist anymore than liking a status concerning a certain Ugandan warlord.

[slycordinator]

Bottom line so far appears to be that the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue, and he did.

Untrue. The dispatcher asked him if he was following the guy. He said yes and the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that." To me, that's definitely not the same as saying "Don't do that" even if the dispatcher had the authority to order him not to.

[Scheavo]

Bottom line so far appears to be that the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue, and he did.

Untrue. The dispatcher asked him if he was following the guy. He said yes and the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that." To me, that's definitely not the same as saying "Don't do that" even if the dispatcher had the authority to order him not to.

Seems to me simply a polite way of saying the same thing. I mean, the reason dispatchers are probably trained to say that, is because when you do follow someone, it may not end up well.

[slycordinator]

I was seeing it described, more or less, that he was ordered to not follow him. Putting it instead as a polite "we don't need you to follow him" isn't firm enough if you're trying to tell him "Stay away from the man" and is ambiguous in that it could also be taken to mean that following the man is merely not necessary.

Though where did I suggest that the dispatchers aren't trained to keep people from going into dangerous situation?

[j]

I was seeing it described, more or less, that he was ordered to not follow him. Putting it instead as a polite "we don't need you to follow him" isn't firm enough if you're trying to tell him "Stay away from the man" and is ambiguous in that it could also be taken to mean that following the man is merely not necessary.

I don't think it matters one way or the other.  The dispatcher doesn't have any authority and he may not have worded it as firmly as my original post made it sound, but in the end, Zimmerman apparently called 911 and then continued to follow the kid after he was told--at the very least--that it was "unnecessary" for him to do so.  It's not illegal, but still important to consider.

For the record, I absolutely take no side on this case, for lack of information among other things.  But this detail in particular seems like it may hurt Zimmerman's ability to claim that he was "merely" acting in self defense.

-J

[lordxizor]

Let's look at it from Trayvon's point of view. He's walking to his friend's house, minding his own business. A local homeowner starts following him for no reason. He get's scared and tries to hide. The guy keeps coming for him. He gets close enough that Trayvon feels the need to jump out and defend himself. The guy who's been stalking him for no reason shoots him.

You could easily argue that it's Trayvon who acted in self defense. If a guy broke into my house, I attacked him to defend my family, and he shoots me, he doesn't get to claim self defense. Zimmerman had very shaky reasons to be following the kid, who wasn't doing anything wrong at the time.

[Chino]

That's what I'm thinking as well. Even if Trayvon did act in what could be considered a hostile manner, I'm sure it was provoked.

[gmillerdrake]

That's what I'm thinking as well. Even if Trayvon did act in what could be considered a hostile manner, I'm sure it was provoked.

The conversation heard by the girl on the phone with Travon went as such as Trevon came out of hiding and approached Zimmerman:

Travon: "Do you got a problem?"
Zimmerman: "No"
Travon: "Well you do now.."

That is when she said she heard scuffiling and the phone go dead. That correlates with Zimmermans account, and  that is when Travon sucker punched him then jumped on top of him and began to pummle him. That is not being provoked to protect himself, that is acting 'macho' or whatever you want to call it.
 

[El Barto]

I'm not so sure about that.  Consider that he was residing with his dad's girlfriend.  I wouldn't have wanted to lead an unknown stalker home to her house.  From his point of view, Zimmerman posed a threat.

[chknptpie]

There is so much hyperbole flung around about this story its pretty disgusting. (Not saying that about this thread, but about the media and discussions all over). I don't really lean one way or the other because its so cloudy. It's like the two parties "defended" themselves from an attacker - trying to find out which one should be considered the attacker is most difficult when the investigation wasn't as in depth as maybe it should have been. Overall - its one giant mess.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'.

The guy had absolutely no good reason to follow Martin.  His paranoia and need to confront the boy started ALL of this.  If I was walking though a neighborhood that wasn't mine, I'd probably be looking around at the houses also.  From all reports, that's all Martin was doing as he passed through on his way back home.  Apparently that was enough for busybody Zimmerman to insert his nosy ass into a situation that didn't exist until he created it.  Dude better stay hidden, because I have no doubt that sooner or later, he's going to end up on the wrong end of someone else's gun.

[Chino]

That's what I'm thinking as well. Even if Trayvon did act in what could be considered a hostile manner, I'm sure it was provoked.

The conversation heard by the girl on the phone with Travon went as such as Trevon came out of hiding and approached Zimmerman:

Travon: "Do you got a problem?"
Zimmerman: "No"
Travon: "Well you do now.."

That is when she said she heard scuffiling and the phone go dead. That correlates with Zimmermans account, and  that is when Travon sucker punched him then jumped on top of him and began to pummle him. That is not being provoked to protect himself, that is acting 'macho' or whatever you want to call it.
 

But what wasn't heard on the phone may have been the kid being followed for who knows how long and in what way.

[lordxizor]

the investigation wasn't as in depth as maybe it should have been.

This is the real danger of the law in FL. It causes police not to investigate as thoroughly as they should have. Why not investigate thoroughly, bringing charges if there's any doubt that it was completely self defense and let a grand jury decide if the evidence is good enough to move forward with a trial?

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Also, since Martin isn't alive to tell his side of the story, what does anybody *think* Zimmerman's going to say other than "Yeah, he totally attacked me, I didn't do nothin' wrong".  He might be a whackjob, but he's not totally stupid.