2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty

[mikeyd23]

u
How did the Browns do in the draft?    They get some of the best draft picks every year and nothing happens.  Must be a coaching thing.   

Coach is beginning his 2nd year with the team...

It was a front office thing...and that has been rectified.  They have had fantastic 2 drafts and they are 2-3 years away from contending.

Hope springs eternal, and I'd love to be proved wrong, but I think this is wildly optimistic.

Agreed. 2-3 years away from being a decent team? Maybe? But actually contending? Nah.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

u
How did the Browns do in the draft?    They get some of the best draft picks every year and nothing happens.  Must be a coaching thing.   

Coach is beginning his 2nd year with the team...

It was a front office thing...and that has been rectified.  They have had fantastic 2 drafts and they are 2-3 years away from contending.

Hope springs eternal, and I'd love to be proved wrong, but I think this is wildly optimistic.

Agreed. 2-3 years away from being a decent team? Maybe? But actually contending? Nah.

I don't see how this is so far fetched. Will Brady and Roethlisberger be around in 2-3 years? The AFC will be up for grabs and as long as the Browns continue to make sound decisions, they'll be in the mix. 

[mikeyd23]

I don't see how this is so far fetched. Will Brady and Roethlisberger be around in 2-3 years? The AFC will be up for grabs and as long as the Browns continue to make sound decisions, they'll be in the mix.

Typically they don't do that though, so maybe things have changed, but until they prove otherwise, I'm going to assume the trend of bad decision making will continue. That's all.

[bosk1]

Don't you have to make a sound decision before you can "continue" making sound decisions?

[Destiny Of Chaos]

The new regime has made several sound decisions. Should be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[mikeyd23]

Honest question, because I haven't been paying close attention, what are they doing differently than the previous regime? What decisions have they made?

[black_biff_stadler]

Well for one, they got rid of Scott 1000 sheets and brought in Cottonelle with aloe. If that ain't a sign of turnin the tide then what is?

[PowerSlave]

Well for one, they got rid of Scott 1000 sheets and brought in Cottonelle with aloe. If that ain't a sign of turnin the tide then what is?

I think that you've come close to the eternal question. What exactly is a Brown, anyways?

[black_biff_stadler]

It's apauling that you don't know the answer.

[PowerSlave]

It's apauling that you don't know the answer.

I used to think that it was the color of the water in Lake Erie, but it turns out that was just from the pollution.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Honest question, because I haven't been paying close attention, what are they doing differently than the previous regime? What decisions have they made?

They didn't fire their coach after a 1-15 season that was not his fault whatsoever. They've had two very good drafts, building a ton of draft equity. And it looks like they're drafting the right people. Of course we won't truly know until years down the road for some of these guys, but this doesn't look like the the same Browns team that has been stuck in the suck, at least to me.

[Stadler]

Honest question, because I haven't been paying close attention, what are they doing differently than the previous regime? What decisions have they made?

They didn't fire their coach after a 1-15 season that was not his fault whatsoever. They've had two very good drafts, building a ton of draft equity. And it looks like they're drafting the right people. Of course we won't truly know until years down the road for some of these guys, but this doesn't look like the the same Browns team that has been stuck in the suck, at least to me.

I mean this sincerely, and in the spirit of being a fan, but for your sake, I hope you're right.  We will see soon enough, no?

[mikeyd23]

Honest question, because I haven't been paying close attention, what are they doing differently than the previous regime? What decisions have they made?

They didn't fire their coach after a 1-15 season that was not his fault whatsoever. They've had two very good drafts, building a ton of draft equity. And it looks like they're drafting the right people. Of course we won't truly know until years down the road for some of these guys, but this doesn't look like the the same Browns team that has been stuck in the suck, at least to me.

Yeah I mean that's cool and all but basically they didn't fire a coach and maybe have drafted players that might turn out? Like I said, I'll wait and see...

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I get that folks will believe it when they see it when it comes to Cleveland... it's been a rough go since the team returned, but I'm not putting any of that on the current regime. I'm considering what they have to dig out of and what they've done so far. And on both counts, they're doing fantastic. The only thing that they could have done better was stay at #2 last year and draft Wentz. Dude is legit.

Speaking of the Eagles, their GM has been killing it, and has done a lot to undo the mess that Chip Kelly made.

[bosk1]

...the current regime. I'm considering what they have to dig out of and what they've done so far. 

Okay, but what have they done so far?  That's the question that hasn't been answered.  And I'm not necessarily implying that they haven't done anything.  But just that, as an admittedly ignorant and disinterest outsider, I am not aware of anything.

Speaking of the Eagles, their GM has been killing it, and has done a lot to undo the mess that Chip Kelly made.

I think I can say the same thing about the 49ers, at least preliminarily.  But time will tell.  We have a long road ahead.  And given past history, I don't want to underestimate the supreme talent and ability of the 49ers front office to make an abject mess out of any given situation.

[Dublagent66]

I can kinda see DoC's point.  When a team is as bad as the Browns, there's no place to go but up.  But, what they've done "so far" hasn't given any indication that they are getting off the bottom anytime soon.  Then again, they could have a miracle season this year and everyone will be like WTF???   

[bosk1]

Had an interesting (to me, anyway) thought this morning.  In terms of assessing an individual player's legacy, championships often do matter.  Whether they should is open for debate.  And how much is open to debate.  But they do get factored in, and I am taking that as a given.  But do some championships count more than others? 

I was thinking about this in connection with Brady.  If we could re-wind the hands of time, let's assume the following happens:  The 2007 season ends with the Pats going 16-0.  They win their next two playoff games.  But instead of losing to the Giants in Super Bowl XLII, they win it and complete the season sweep.  The perfect season is now theirs.  And let's say that Brady plays the following years pretty much as he did, but didn't manage to win another Super Bowl, so now he only has 4 instead of 5.  But he has THAT one.  The one in a wife-to-wire undefeated season.  Is that somehow worth more?  Is he the G.O.A.T. with only 4 Super Bowls because he has THAT one among his four?  I know it's a bit superficial, but I kinda lean toward "yes."

[El Barto]

The GOAT thing is subjective enough that people jump aboard while the train is rolling. He was in definitely in the GOAT consideration before the last SB. He was, albeit to a lesser extent, before the Seattle SB. I think there just comes a tipping point where it starts to becomes an effective consensus. So with that in mind I don't think it's number of SBs that count. Not winning one certainly hurts. Winning 13 would obviously help. Fifteen years of all-pro play with SBs scattered about is far more important, though.

[bosk1]

I agree with all of that.  Just curious how much weight yourself and others might give a SB that caps off a perfect season. 

[King Postwhore]

For Brady that would be the cherry on top of his career.   Others it would elevate their stature.   

[King Postwhore]

Speaking of Tom.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

We can play that game with Brady's first 3 SB wins, which were all decided by narrow margins.

He's in the conversation for sure.

[axeman90210]

All I know is I'm hoping the Madden curse has another good year

[El Barto]

We can play that game with Brady's first 3 SB wins, which were all decided by narrow margins.

He's in the conversation for sure.

Is the conversation still ongoing? I honestly thought it was settled at this point.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

We can play that game with Brady's first 3 SB wins, which were all decided by narrow margins.

He's in the conversation for sure.

Is the conversation still ongoing? I honestly thought it was settled at this point.

I certainly hope not, since it's completely opinion based.

[TheCountOfNYC]

We can play that game with Brady's first 3 SB wins, which were all decided by narrow margins.

He's in the conversation for sure.

Is the conversation still ongoing? I honestly thought it was settled at this point.

My issue with him being considered the GOAT lies in Belichick and the Patriots. Football is the ultimate team sport and nobody is productive alone. Brady has played for the greatest coach of all time on well managed and well structured teams for his whole career. Look at the years where New England's defense wasn't as good or their offense was a bit more one dimensional. While they still made the playoffs, they consistently came up short. Put a guy like Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers on New England's roster and you'll probably see similar results. IMO, Peyton (who I think is the GOAT) should get more credit for being the only starting QB to win a Super Bowl with two different teams than Brady who once again played for the best coach ever for his entire career.

[El Barto]

^^^Peyton's a valid choice, so I'm not arguing with you. I'll just point out that the reason you question Brady's status is a bigger problem with Peyton. He was the week link on the second superbowl team, and won on the backs of his D.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

We can't hold it against Brady that Manning won with two different teams.

[King Postwhore]

I understand the reasoning but there has been only 2 times the Pats spent money on the offensive side of the ball.  2007 and this year yet they produce.  I'm just happy to see his name in rarefied air.

[King Postwhore]

All I know is I'm hoping the Madden curse has another good year

Mason said the same thing to me on Facebook.

[KevShmev]

We can play that game with Brady's first 3 SB wins, which were all decided by narrow margins.

He's in the conversation for sure.

Is the conversation still ongoing? I honestly thought it was settled at this point.

My issue with him being considered the GOAT lies in Belichick and the Patriots. Football is the ultimate team sport and nobody is productive alone. Brady has played for the greatest coach of all time on well managed and well structured teams for his whole career. Look at the years where New England's defense wasn't as good or their offense was a bit more one dimensional. While they still made the playoffs, they consistently came up short. Put a guy like Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers on New England's roster and you'll probably see similar results. IMO, Peyton (who I think is the GOAT) should get more credit for being the only starting QB to win a Super Bowl with two different teams than Brady who once again played for the best coach ever for his entire career.

Good post.

Brady certainly has a great argument for being the best QB ever, but here is my issue with that: he has been voted the All-Pro First Team QB twice.  Twice. That means that, for all of his postseason success, he was only considered the best QB in the league by voters twice in his 15 NFL seasons to date (excluding 2008).  Meanwhile, Peyton Manning was All-Pro First Team SEVEN times, which means he was considered the best QB in the league in nearly half of his years (7 out of 16). 

As much as some like to do it, we cannot dismiss the regular season like it means nothing and that the postseason means everything.  Manning played 293 games, 266 of which were in the regular season, but we are supposed to act like 91% of his career doesn't really matter?  Hogwash.

And if titles mean everything, then Brady, Montana and Bradshaw are the best of the Super Bowl era, right?

Note: I am not saying the postseason means nothing, just that it shouldn't mean everything.

As big a dick as I think Dan Marino is, he unfairly gets left out of GOAT QB conversations simply because he never won a Super Bowl, even though he was blowing every QB out of the water for much of his career (he was putting up obscene numbers back when passing numbers weren't even close overall to what they are now).

[King Postwhore]

What really hurts Marino is that he had the same coach like most say about Brady/Belichick yet they did not dominate their division during their run.  Buffalo 4 years in a row in the SB (That's just insane) and the Pats winning the division a few times going to the SB once.

[KevShmev]

I tend to be pro-Marino in some ways and anti-Marino in others.

On the one hand, what he did despite no running game and dropping back so often, was incredible.  Dropping back to throw that often was suicide for any other QB back then.

On the other hand, I don't give him the "he didn't win a Super Bowl because he never had a running game" pass that some do, considering he didn't want a running game.  He imposed his will to the point that the team acquiesced to him and didn't even try to get him a running game (until Jimmy Johnson was his coach late in his career) because he didn't want one.

[King Postwhore]

There are so many pros and cons.  The best I can say is I hated to face him as a Pats fan because of how he played against us and that is high praise. 

[PowerSlave]

And if titles mean everything, then Brady, Montana and Bradshaw are the best of the Super Bowl era, right?

On a certain level, I do believe this. TB's numbers weren't as pretty as most of the other guys that usually get mentioned as the greatest QB's, but his end results were impressive. I'd also add Bart Star into the conversation. His effectiveness just prior to the SB era, and at its beginning at the position is often over looked. Roger Staubach should be mentioned from that era as well.

However, there are certain guys that earned an exception. You can't do what Marino did year after year without being god-like. Had Elway not got the two at the end of his career he would have still been considered one of the greatest of all time by a long shot.

There are so few at the position that had a high degree of success over a long period of time. There's a short, but significant list of guys that deserve recognition.