Watching the Drumeo video, I realised something about MP that the rest of the band has been missing.
MM is the technically superior drummer and I think with him joining the band, the other instrumental members found their technical equivalent in the rhythm department. Progressive metal started as the collision of multiple genres, but I think, in the past ten years evolved into a showcase of instrumental proficiency for the most part.
With the departure of Mike Portnoy, Dream Theater lost their primary connection to the wider world of music. Being an avid fan for the last 25 years, I have watched and read many interviews. I always had the sense that the other instrumental members of Dream Theater did not have a wide musical horizon beyond the classics and some stuff here and there with MP once stating that since knowing him JP has introduced him to one band only, Muse. There was another interview where JM talked about listening to Death Cab for Cutie but they repeat the same influences over and over: Rush, Metallica, Iron Maiden etc. JLB listens to a wider array of music, but he's not involved in the writing of the music. The main writing duo (JP and JR) is rather limited when it comes to musical influences. Hell, JR toured with Animals as Leaders and has not heard (!) The Woven Web before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrrcbUAghQA
MP is in it for the love of music. In my opinion, he's the least technically proficient member of Dream Theater with a comparatively limited bag of tricks, but what he does is important: He connects the band to the wider world of music. I still believe that he has to step his game up for the next era of Dream Theater, but the musical connection is invaluable.
Some people love their instrument and see it as an extension of themselves and strive to become the most technically proficient player, which is okay, but the music suffers as a result of it. Especially in the case of Dream Theater, because they refuse to work with outside producers.
It's an interesting proposition. But I don't think that what the band fundamentally was about changed with Mike Mangini. I think his abilities brought out things in the rest of the bands playing but JP was the same player before and after MM. You bring up a valid theory - that JP and JR were the primary song writers and this limited the band. I think that may have been true at some points.
At the end of the day, I'd be surprised by someone who thought the reason they stopped liking DT in 2011 was because Mike Mangini made DT (of all bands!) too technical. Technicality is probably the one word most fans would agree is a core element of what they do.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
There's this interview where Steven Wilson talks about Guthrie Govan. He praises his ability, but points that he encouraged him to play with less notes. Some of Guthrie's best solo work is on the "Hand. Cannot. Erase." album as a result.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now. They cannot just rely on the "original kings of prog metal" label.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers. I think there's zero possibility of them going that route, but one can dream.
I guess we just disagree. I think Awaken the Master is an awesome track. What determines whether a song 'needs' the extended range at the end of the day? Maybe it really was first and foremost about selling guitars but how are you so sure that he wasn't curious or inspired by a new instrument and that this was the primary driver of this song? 8 string guitars have blossomed in popularity in the last years, the same was 7 strings were when Awake came out. How is the 8 string situation any different from what he did on Awake?
It's okay to disagree. No hard feelings. Awaken the Master would have never been written if there wasn't an 8-string JP guitar coming out. The song just follows the same DT songwriting formula. There's a difference between composing something and then deciding that it'd benefit from a change of equipment etc. and needing a soundtrack for promotional videos. JP is wildly successful with his signature line, as it is the second best selling signature guitar
in the world after Gibson's Les Paul line. I wish him all the more success. The difference with the Awake era is the change in the music industry: Musicians now rely on ancilliary revenue, rather than the music royalties. So it is normal to concentrate on other stuff.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
While I'm the first one to argue that JP has turned into a salesman more than a musician (new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it) I don't think they're actively writing music just to sell more complimentary products. I still think (maybe a bit naive on my part) their music writing actually comes from a genuine place and not from a business standpoint. I'd say it's probably the *only* aspect of the band that hasn't become part of a corporate monster (yet), IMO.
If that was the case, we would've never gotten something like The Astonishing 
Sure, the music industry as a whole sucks and they have to resort to selling all sorts of stuff and branching out to get at least some revenue, but I wouldn't go as far as saying some of their music is just a means to get the new Majesty whatever guitar in the hands of more people. Like I said, maybe I'm just naive 
There's this Bumblefoot quote: "Musicians are travelling t-shirt salesman now." - And I agree with this. I understand why professional musicians concentrate on income diversification, as they have to make a living. As a result, the music itself, purely because it cannot sustain an individual or a family, takes a backseat. The 2000 to 2010 era, with the changing landscape of the music industry, was the start of this for Dream Theater. The albums became more formulaic and the new releases were an excuse to announce a new tour, so they can make a living. Again, this is understandable. Post-2010 and and post-pandemic era intensified this trend even further. I have been working as an audio engineer for the past 15 years now, I have never done any other job in my life and one of my jobs is to go on tour with the bands and I know that it is hard for the majority of tours to break even right now, let along make a profit.
It is okay and necessary for JP to diversify his income, but the music inevitably suffers. How much effort would you put into something if you knew that the returns are going to be dismal?
The Astonishing, in my opinion, was the proof for JP that the fanbase won't bite
everything that they put out. It was a failed experiment. Same thing happened to MP after he left DT: He thought that
he had a fanbase, he even talked about "Mike Portnoy as a brand" in multiple interviews, but the fanbase did not follow him to all his different experiments over the last 13 years. The "MP Warriors" turned out to be a small subset of the DT fanbase.
when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands".
Respectfully I see it as just the opposite. I would never refer to SC or BCSL as "God-tier", but AVFTTOTW is 100% "God-tier". Of course this is subjective and just my opinion (and I do appreciate your pointing out how MP cares about the fans - that is important).
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion.
I find it hard to believe that this band ever did not put "the music itself" as the utmost priority.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now.
And I would say that the technical proficiency is the way that they stand out. It's become an integral part of their branding. I expect a Dream Theater song to sound like a Dream Theater song. And to my ears, that means it's a song that well surpasses everything else in its sheer technicality and musical perfection.
There are other bands that I love just as much, but for different reasons. They are just as amazing in different ways and their music moves me in different ways, perhaps with a more heartfelt or visceral reaction, but they are not as technically perfect and precise. That particular crown goes to DT, and music like theirs brings a different kind of joy.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers.
Wait, isn't that how we ended up with FII? 😖
There can be sheer technicality indeed, but I reckon musical perfection and creativity has been lacking in terms of composition and musical ideas.
I don't think FII is a bad album, but on that album, the control freak nature of the dominant members of the band clashed with what the label wanted from them, based on the 90's music industry circumstances. Kevin Shirley is a great producer, I love his work from a sonic standpoint, but it is also incredibly hard to balance band expectations with the label ones. The band continued to work with Shirley as a mixing engineer, so their personal experiences with him could not have been that bad. Some bands and albums are the creative brainchild of a single individual, but some bands need help seeing the bigger picture. I think, since SFAM, DT has been in the second category, but that is just my opinion.
Sure, the outside producer not working angle gets used a lot in connection to FII (which I like as an album a lot) but an outside producer was used for I&W, Awake and ACOS as well so I personally quite like the idea of it 
There are different scopes in terms of production. If the boundaries are set well between the band and the producer before the start of the process, I think it could do wonders for Dream Theater.
We ended up with FII with label pressure. It's not that the label greenlighted them a very intense and not marketable prog album, and Kevin Shirley showed up and said "No lol let's make easier songs and let's call Desmond Child".
Also, I'd daresay that the suggestions from Kevin Shirley were good. What was the point of stopping a generic hard rock song in the middle to go for a completely unrelated moody instrumental? hey, thank the outside producer for having Hell's Kitchen. It's not that he told them to drop the slow part into Lines of the Sand, the "we fabricate our demons" stanza that ends up in the emotional climax of the song, the "in the stream of consciousness...." part. He told them to keep a simple song straight and to the point.
Anyway, the label pressure made the band suffer a lot, to the point that they wowed to make their do or die album after that, without outside producers of course, and they hit the jackpot with Scenes from a Memory.
I believe these two events basically set them in their ways, and they were one so negative and one so positive that their perception of the situation with producers forever changed.
The fact that Falling Into Infinity suffered from label interference does not mean that working with an outside producer is evil and would damage them. Also, the fact that without an external producer they managed to create a goddamn masterpiece and one of the best albums ever in the entire history of mankind does not mean they don't need, or would have not ever needed again, the counsel of an outside producer that gets them, their music and is there to offer useful advice.
For example: we debated endlessly about A Nightmare to Remember, what to do with the growling part, how the second half of the song seems to meander a bit etc etc..... those are all things that a dedicated producer who understands and respects their music (and is not told by the label "give us a hit single") would have absolutely guided them through.
Some bands need an outside influence to keep things tidy and I agree that Kevin Shirley has actually done a good job with what he had for FII. I think, given the control freak nature of JP and MP at the time, they needed an excuse to never
subordinate to anyone ever again and they were given the perfect one in the form of FII.
Topic: DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY (Read 119456 times)