2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty

[TAC]

Browns 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/browns-4th-round-pick-to-undergo-surgery-after-freak-injury/ar-BBB668a?li=BBnb7Kz

[KevShmev]

And if titles mean everything, then Brady, Montana and Bradshaw are the best of the Super Bowl era, right?

On a certain level, I do believe this. TB's numbers weren't as pretty as most of the other guys that usually get mentioned as the greatest QB's, but his end results were impressive. I'd also add Bart Star into the conversation. His effectiveness just prior to the SB era, and at its beginning at the position is often over looked. Roger Staubach should be mentioned from that era as well.

However, there are certain guys that earned an exception. You can't do what Marino did year after year without being god-like. Had Elway not got the two at the end of his career he would have still been considered one of the greatest of all time by a long shot.

There are so few at the position that had a high degree of success over a long period of time. There's a short, but significant list of guys that deserve recognition.

I am not sure I agree about Elway. I remember the narrative about him before those two Super Bowl wins was "a great QB who could't win the big one."  I am not sure history would have been kind to him had he not gotten those rings, especially since he didn't really put up big numbers until the end of his career (freaking Dan Reeves).

But you are right about sustaining excellence over the long haul, and in that regard, Drew Brees is criminally underrated.  All he does every year is play the QB position at an elite level (regardless of who he is throwing to), yet he will never get his real due, I fear.  I mean, in the last 15 years, there have been four all-time great elite QBs, and Brees is undoubtedly one of them (along with Brady, Peyton and Rodgers). 

[TheCountOfNYC]

And if titles mean everything, then Brady, Montana and Bradshaw are the best of the Super Bowl era, right?

On a certain level, I do believe this. TB's numbers weren't as pretty as most of the other guys that usually get mentioned as the greatest QB's, but his end results were impressive. I'd also add Bart Star into the conversation. His effectiveness just prior to the SB era, and at its beginning at the position is often over looked. Roger Staubach should be mentioned from that era as well.

However, there are certain guys that earned an exception. You can't do what Marino did year after year without being god-like. Had Elway not got the two at the end of his career he would have still been considered one of the greatest of all time by a long shot.

There are so few at the position that had a high degree of success over a long period of time. There's a short, but significant list of guys that deserve recognition.

I am not sure I agree about Elway. I remember the narrative about him before those two Super Bowl wins was "a great QB who could't win the big one."  I am not sure history would have been kind to him had he not gotten those rings, especially since he didn't really put up big numbers until the end of his career (freaking Dan Reeves).

But you are right about sustaining excellence over the long haul, and in that regard, Drew Brees is criminally underrated.  All he does every year is play the QB position at an elite level (regardless of who he is throwing to), yet he will never get his real due, I fear.  I mean, in the last 15 years, there have been four all-time great elite QBs, and Brees is undoubtedly one of them (along with Brady, Peyton and Rodgers).

Brees is my all time favorite quarterback. Speaking of those four QB, they all have one thing in common: they won titles when they had good defenses.

[PowerSlave]

And if titles mean everything, then Brady, Montana and Bradshaw are the best of the Super Bowl era, right?

On a certain level, I do believe this. TB's numbers weren't as pretty as most of the other guys that usually get mentioned as the greatest QB's, but his end results were impressive. I'd also add Bart Star into the conversation. His effectiveness just prior to the SB era, and at its beginning at the position is often over looked. Roger Staubach should be mentioned from that era as well.

However, there are certain guys that earned an exception. You can't do what Marino did year after year without being god-like. Had Elway not got the two at the end of his career he would have still been considered one of the greatest of all time by a long shot.

There are so few at the position that had a high degree of success over a long period of time. There's a short, but significant list of guys that deserve recognition.

I am not sure I agree about Elway. I remember the narrative about him before those two Super Bowl wins was "a great QB who could't win the big one."  I am not sure history would have been kind to him had he not gotten those rings, especially since he didn't really put up big numbers until the end of his career (freaking Dan Reeves).

But you are right about sustaining excellence over the long haul, and in that regard, Drew Brees is criminally underrated.  All he does every year is play the QB position at an elite level (regardless of who he is throwing to), yet he will never get his real due, I fear.  I mean, in the last 15 years, there have been four all-time great elite QBs, and Brees is undoubtedly one of them (along with Brady, Peyton and Rodgers).

I do remember hearing some of those rumblings about Elway before the end, but I mostly ignored them. I like to think that people would have looked back at him fondly after his career was over, but I could be coloring that view with my own admiration of him.

And Brees, you're completely right. In fact, I'm often guilty of ignoring him to a certain extent, myself. Then I'll catch a game, or some highlights at a point during the season and be reminded of how great the guy really is. I do have a specific memory of him lighting up my Buckeyes when he was in college at Purdue, and I knew that he was going to be something really special. I'm still baffled by how things went for him in San Diego at the beginning of his pro career, but I suppose that some of that can be attributed to the organization that he was playing for. That team seems to have a knack for screwing the pooch on a fairly regular basis.

[KevShmev]

Brees is my all time favorite quarterback. Speaking of those four QB, they all have one thing in common: they won titles when they had good defenses.

The '09 Saints was a strange one. They gave up a crap load of yards, but forced turnovers like crazy, and it seems like every time I watched one of their games that year, they were forcing a turnover and returning it for a touchdown.  That is statistically one of the worst defenses to ever win the Super Bowl (along with the 2011 Giants), but they managed to make big stops/play when they needed to.

I do remember hearing some of those rumblings about Elway before the end, but I mostly ignored them. I like to think that people would have looked back at him fondly after his career was over, but I could be coloring that view with my own admiration of him.

We'll never know, but the masses tended to rarely look back fondly on great QBs who never won a ring.  See: Dan Marino.

And Brees, you're completely right. In fact, I'm often guilty of ignoring him to a certain extent, myself. Then I'll catch a game, or some highlights at a point during the season and be reminded of how great the guy really is. I do have a specific memory of him lighting up my Buckeyes when he was in college at Purdue, and I knew that he was going to be something really special. I'm still baffled by how things went for him in San Diego at the beginning of his pro career, but I suppose that some of that can be attributed to the organization that he was playing for. That team seems to have a knack for screwing the pooch on a fairly regular basis.

So true.  Rivers is arguably the best of the big three QBs from the 2005 draft, but he won't have two rings like Eli and Ben both do, so he will never be thought of as better than either of those guys all-time (even those he is).

[King Postwhore]

I look at Ben better but not by a lot.

[KevShmev]

Ben is better now. Both have declined a tad, but Rivers has fallen a bit further. However, Roethlisberger has never been as good as Rivers was from 2008-2010.

[King Postwhore]

The AFC championship game against the Pats when he was injured .are me a believer.  He is one tough SOB.

[PB1]

brady will never be the GOAT in my opinion because of spygate, deflategate and all of the other instances that the patriots have been caught cheating. Brady is a great quarterback, and Belichick is a great coach, but they are both cheaters. Always have been, always will be.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

brady will never be the GOAT in my opinion because of spygate, deflategate and all of the other instances that the patriots have been caught cheating. Brady is a great quarterback, and Belichick is a great coach, but they are both cheaters. Always have been, always will be.

It's not like Brady benefitted from performance enhancing drugs. And it's not like he ONLY won with underinflated balls.

[King Postwhore]

brady will never be the GOAT in my opinion because of spygate, deflategate and all of the other instances that the patriots have been caught cheating. Brady is a great quarterback, and Belichick is a great coach, but they are both cheaters. Always have been, always will be.

Yes and many other championship teams didn't cheat either.

I feed off your hate.   I hope it emotionally ruins you when they win #6 this year.

[PB1]

brady will never be the GOAT in my opinion because of spygate, deflategate and all of the other instances that the patriots have been caught cheating. Brady is a great quarterback, and Belichick is a great coach, but they are both cheaters. Always have been, always will be.

It's not like Brady benefitted from performance enhancing drugs. And it's not like he ONLY won with underinflated balls.

You're right. If you remove the cheating, the pats would probably still have at least one super bowl championship. but definitely not all of them. for example, it is a documented fact that the patriots videotaped the rams practices before the 2001 super bowl. during those practices, the rams introduced a brand new play that they had literally never run in a game or practice. it was completely new. During the super bowl, Warner called out the signals to initiate the play, and the patriots linemen responded by telling the rest of the defense what the play would be, and informing the backs/dbs of  the exact guys to cover. obviously the play was unsuccessful. just one of the many examples of the patriots cheating ways.

[King Postwhore]

Again that false accusation was proved false so go ahead, keep making things up.  Did the Pats deserve what they got for Soygate?  Yes.  BB taped in an area that was not allowed after the memo came out before the season.

Now you do know Jimmy Johnson said he did the exact thing and so did Bill Cowher? 

[TAC]

Did the Pats deserve what they got for Soygate?   

Definitely. They had way over the legal amount of tofu in their cafeteria.

[KevShmev]

I have zero interest in litigating Spygate again, but for now all I will say is that Goodell did them no favors by destroying the evidence, because it gave the impression at the time that he was protecting them after slapping them on the wrist.  If there was nothing else there, the public should have been able to eventually see that, but oh wait, the evidence is all gone.

Regardless, Belichick is still the best coach ever, and Brady is still in the GOAT conversation.

[Cable]

Brees is my all time favorite quarterback. Speaking of those four QB, they all have one thing in common: they won titles when they had good defenses.

The '09 Saints was a strange one. They gave up a crap load of yards, but forced turnovers like crazy, and it seems like every time I watched one of their games that year, they were forcing a turnover and returning it for a touchdown.  That is statistically one of the worst defenses to ever win the Super Bowl (along with the 2011 Giants), but they managed to make big stops/play when they needed to.

Brees should get more attention no doubt, and he should have won the MVP in 2009. Could have won it in other years too. Only issue with Brees is I feel he hurts his team, via his salary. Then again, Rodgers probably does the same too. As a result, he very well may never win again.

brady will never be the GOAT in my opinion because of spygate, deflategate and all of the other instances that the patriots have been caught cheating. Brady is a great quarterback, and Belichick is a great coach, but they are both cheaters. Always have been, always will be.

It's not like Brady benefitted from performance enhancing drugs. And it's not like he ONLY won with underinflated balls.

You're right. If you remove the cheating, the pats would probably still have at least one super bowl championship. but definitely not all of them. for example, it is a documented fact that the patriots videotaped the rams practices before the 2001 super bowl. during those practices, the rams introduced a brand new play that they had literally never run in a game or practice. it was completely new. During the super bowl, Warner called out the signals to initiate the play, and the patriots linemen responded by telling the rest of the defense what the play would be, and informing the backs/dbs of  the exact guys to cover. obviously the play was unsuccessful. just one of the many examples of the patriots cheating ways.

Marshall Faulk everyone, posting in the forum!



https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/30/marshall-faulk-patriots-cheated-the-rams-out-of-a-super-bowl/


Or is this Charles Woodson??? The Raiders would have one that SB, too!



https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/02/charles-woodson-still-fuming-over-patriots-2001-playoff-win/

 

[King Postwhore]

I hope everyone saw the Pats practicing the week before the SB IN 2014 for the exact play that Butler made the interception on.  That's called preparation,  not what Faulk thinks. 

Our coach was better than Faulk's coach.

[black_biff_stadler]

Pssh. NO ONE outsMartz Mike Martz.

[PowerSlave]

A running back in Mike Martz system has every right to feel cheated. The problem with this situation is that the running back's anger is mis-placed. It should be directed at his own coach, instead.

[Stadler]

brady will never be the GOAT in my opinion because of spygate, deflategate and all of the other instances that the patriots have been caught cheating. Brady is a great quarterback, and Belichick is a great coach, but they are both cheaters. Always have been, always will be.

One, the crime of the Pats in Spygate is not that they did what they did (by all accounts it was a common practice in the league), it's that they were targeted and they got caught.  Not really an advantage when every one is doing it, is it?

Two, BRADY didn't deflate the balls.  Whether he knew about it or not has never been proven.   And you have to account for the fact that his numbers were okay in the first half - with the allegedly "deflated" balls - and were LIGHTS OUT in the second half after the balls were brought back into code.  (And it was never conclusively proved that it wasn't the environmental conditions of the game that accounted for the pressure loss, by the way). 

Three, can you enlighten us on "all of the other instances"?  I don't recall hearing about "all of the other instances".   Must've missed those. 

Bottom line is this:  EVERY TIME the Pats get caught "cheating", and the world is watching them, they take it to the next level and win games they have no business winning.   You don't cheat your way to the type of Super Bowl win they just had over the Falcons, nor the type of Super Bowl win they had over the Seahawks. 

I suppose you're going to claim that Pete Carroll was on the Pats' payroll or something?   Or Belichick had pictures of Carroll with a pretty coed, the USC mascot, and a bucket of Crisco?     

[bosk1]

Did the Pats deserve what they got for Soygate?  Yes. 

I don't think that opinion amounts to a hill of beans.

[TAC]

One, the crime of the Pats in Spygate is not that they did what they did (by all accounts it was a common practice in the league), it's that they were targeted and they got caught.  Not really an advantage when every one is doing it, is it?   

It was a thing that had been disallowed and the Pats had been warned. Did they cheat? Well, they broke the rule.

Also there's this:

I have zero interest in litigating Spygate again, but for now all I will say is that Goodell did them no favors by destroying the evidence, because it gave the impression at the time that he was protecting them after slapping them on the wrist.  If there was nothing else there, the public should have been able to eventually see that, but oh wait, the evidence is all gone.

Two, BRADY didn't deflate the balls.  Whether he knew about it or not has never been proven.     

I guess it hasn't been "proven", but there's no way he didn't know about it. None. In fact, there's no way Belichick didn't know about it. I'm not saying they were told to deliberately be below the NFL minimum, but these guys were there to get the balls the way Brady likes them.

[King Postwhore]

Did the Pats deserve what they got for Soygate?  Yes. 

I don't think that opinion amounts to a hill of beans.

You mean at the time the bigest fine of all time with a #1 draft pick?  Yeah it was just a slap on the wrist.

[bosk1]

Did the Pats deserve what they got for Soygate?  Yes. 

I don't think that opinion amounts to a hill of beans.

You mean at the time the bigest fine of all time with a #1 draft pick?  Yeah it was just a slap on the wrist.

No.  I was only referring to soy beans. 

[King Postwhore]

 

Holy crap I missed that.  Again you win good sir.

Also I'm a red or black bean and rice guy.  Not a hill of them though.

[bosk1]

Not a fan of black beans myself.  Maybe on like a southwest chicken salad.  But otherwise, they are not my legume of choice.

[KevShmev]

A running back in Mike Martz system has every right to feel cheated. The problem with this situation is that the running back's anger is mis-placed. It should be directed at his own coach, instead.

Marshall Faulk was never more productive than when he played in Mike Martz's offense.

Two, BRADY didn't deflate the balls.  Whether he knew about it or not has never been proven.     

I guess it hasn't been "proven", but there's no way he didn't know about it. None. In fact, there's no way Belichick didn't know about it. I'm not saying they were told to deliberately be below the NFL minimum, but these guys were there to get the balls the way Brady likes them.

Exactly.  I have been consistent all along that deflating footballs is like doing 70 in a 55, but while there is no way to prove Brady knew it, common sense tells us that he did.  Saying a QB doesn't know if a football he touches on every play is different is like the equipment guy putting bigger, illegal pads on a hockey goalie and then saying, "The goalie didn't know!"  Of course he would know.  Just like any QB would know.

[King Postwhore]

Completely agree.  Goodell stopped them and was looking for 25 years to life.

I'm sorry, the 31 other butthurt owners....

[KevShmev]

"The cover-up is always worse than the crime."

Had Brady manned up and admitted it right away, he likely gets a 25 or 50K fine and it's a mere footnote. 

[TAC]

One issue there Kev, was that this was right before the Super Bowl. People were not only calling for Brady to be suspended for the SB, but for the Pats to vacate their spot.
I think if this happened in Week 1 of the regular season, the Pats would've handled much differently. I think they had to deny it up the ass because of the looming SB.

[King Postwhore]

It's not a crime, it's jaywalking turned into murder.   


21 million dollars later Brady still won #5.

[PowerSlave]

A running back in Mike Martz system has every right to feel cheated. The problem with this situation is that the running back's anger is mis-placed. It should be directed at his own coach, instead.

Marshall Faulk was never more productive than when he played in Mike Martz's offense.

When Martz was only the OC, sure. That team was amazing. After he became the HC it was almost like he forgot how to call run plays. I understand that running the ball wasn't going to be the focus of that team under most circumstances, but the running game wasn't even a threat under most of his tenure.

[King Postwhore]

And I enjoy his tears every time Faulk cries.

[PowerSlave]

And I enjoy his tears every time Faulk cries.

He was a great player, but I can understand why you folks in New England would feel that way.

[King Postwhore]

Be absolutely was.  But how he's handled himself in the media since makes me enjoy those moments.