Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[Chino]

How did she have her former husband killed? He took a tusk to the gut while out hunting.

[MirrorMask]

How did she have her former husband killed? He took a tusk to the gut while out hunting.

While stone drunk because Lancel was continously feeding him wine, as Cersei clearly instructed him to do.

[The Walrus]

How did she have her former husband killed? He took a tusk to the gut while out hunting.

Here you go.

As revealed later, Cersei comes up with a plan to dispose of Robert: she orders her henchman/lover Lancel, Robert's squire, to give Robert plenty of wine in order to dull his senses and slow his reactions during the hunt.

Robert hunts in the Kingswood, accompanied by Renly Baratheon, Ser Barristan Selmy and Lancel. Lancel, obediently following Cersei's orders, keeps offering wine to Robert, who drinks a lot.[2]

At Tywin's funeral, Lancel, who has become pious, approaches Cersei and asks for her forgiveness for his sins, among them his part in Robert's death; Cersei taunts Lancel and pretends she has no idea what he is talking about.[7]

Lancel confesses to his crimes to the High Sparrow. Based on the confession, Cersei is arrested[8] and charged with various crimes, among them Robert's murder, which she furiously denies.[9]

For any plot holes, they address that down there, too.

[Chino]

Ahhh gotcha. Thanks.

[The Walrus]

Hey guys, sorry for flooding the thread. This is like my #1 place to discuss Game of Thrones - only one of my local friends gets hardcore with lore and the characters' arcs, and I don't have a Reddit account. Feel like I'm annoying, but I just really, really really like this world and talking about it. 

[MirrorMask]

Hey guys, sorry for flooding the thread. This is like my #1 place to discuss Game of Thrones - only one of my local friends gets hardcore with lore and the characters' arcs, and I don't have a Reddit account. Feel like I'm annoying, but I just really, really really like this world and talking about it. 

Same here, don't worry about it 

[cramx3]

as far as im concerned, please continue

There's another forum, I mostly lurk there, for psu football and there's a very active GoT thread there, but that is sooooo much less interesting to read through as it seems no one there read the books or does any deep analysis, just arguing.  Makes this thread look soooo much better, which it really is.  So what people have different perspectives, it's fun to discuss and in the arguments, you uncover more details.

[Adami]

Hey guys, sorry for flooding the thread. This is like my #1 place to discuss Game of Thrones - only one of my local friends gets hardcore with lore and the characters' arcs, and I don't have a Reddit account. Feel like I'm annoying, but I just really, really really like this world and talking about it. 

Listen dude, this is a Game of Thrones thread. So take your Game of Thrones talk somewhere else!

[The Walrus]

Fine, I'll go make my own Game of Thrones thread! With blackjack! And hookers!

Good to know fellas. If anyone's unaware of Reddit's weekly surveys, they put one up the day after each new episode and on Thursdays the results get shared. There are well over 100k votes cast so it has some curious insight into the fanbase.

[MirrorMask]

Dany finished last in the "MVP player of the battle" question? she roasted something like 10K wights with Drogon, which was precisely her role, use the dragon to burn everything. Jon Snow didn't even do that.

[cramx3]

Dany finished last in the "MVP player of the battle" question? she roasted something like 10K wights with Drogon, which was precisely her role, use the dragon to burn everything. Jon Snow didn't even do that.

Well, maybe that was more of her dragon's work than her own?  but I'm guessing people just kept thinking of her last scenes standing there.

[The Walrus]

Lyanna Mormont was also #2 on "whose death would you have prevented" and I'm just... so over her as a character. Her scene was cool but man, I SO would have prevented Theon's death instead, if only for him to eventually face Euron - though I love how his story ended all the same.

[cramx3]

Lyanna Mormont was also #2 on "whose death would you have prevented" and I'm just... so over her as a character. Her scene was cool but man, I SO would have prevented Theon's death instead, if only for him to eventually face Euron - though I love how his story ended all the same.

I'm in Camp Lyanna, Jorah and Theon's storys got stale.  Lyanna was a fun and relatively fresh character.  Her death was glorious though so all is well. 

[Chino]

Theon died thinking he failed and that Bran was toast. That kind of sucks.

[MirrorMask]

After failing to conquer Westeros, the Night King will go into a solo carrer, check out the cover art for his yet unnamed debut:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw9q5nCJCX4/

[Chino]

[MirrorMask]

I'd also add "Use Bran as possible bait, do not set a trap and hope that Reek fends off the Night King" to the list.

[gmillerdrake]

I'd also add "Use Bran as possible bait, do not set a trap and hope that Reek fends off the Night King" to the list.

That was Brans idea. And, that’s the way the Dothraki fight. The other ones are funny.

[cramx3]

But maybe there is a point to Jon's poor planning yet constant surviving, he's the prince who was promised, bad strategy is meaningless when you are the chosen one.

[RuRoRul]

I'd also add "Use Bran as possible bait, do not set a trap and hope that Reek fends off the Night King" to the list.

The idea was that Daenerys and Jon with the dragons were the trap for the Night King, that's why they were originally waiting on the sidelines - they were only supposed to go after the Night King when he showed up. Theon and the others were more a backstop to protect the godswood from wights if they got past the walls. But yeah, they really could have hidden a few people around the godswood with Valyrian steel waiting to jump out at the Night King if he showed up rather than relying only on the dragons,

[ariich]

Ok but her story isn't finished yet, and if she ends up dead, then she was exactly the same as all those other power-hungry villains.

I disagree with this strongly, but if I am to entertain what you just wrote here: wouldn't that be the point? That for all her cunning, all her sacrifices and things she's lost and everything she's been through, that she ends up dead just like everyone else? Remember when Dany was warned - by Tyrion I believe - about ruling with an iron fist and how it makes your power brittle because everyone beneath you wants to see you dead? Cersei isn't destined to own the throne, I think she's destined to lose it tragically despite sacrificing her entire family for it.

Sure, and that's all... fine. I never said it would be illogical or not make sense. Just that it would be uninteresting/anticlimactic and out of tune with some key things they've spent years setting up.

[RuRoRul]

This is a long post that seems to assume that the problem people have is simply that the battle should have come at the end rather than the 4th-last episode (correct me if I'm wrong). But I don't recognise that as being the issue at all (or at least not directly). The issue is the narrative arc being anti-climactic and jarring with key themes of the show/books.

If after all this time, the theme has turned from "we should stop squabbling over who rules and work together to defeat bigger threats" to "let other people deal with bigger threats so you get a competitive advantage over them" then the show just suddenly became a whole lot less meaningful for a whole lot of people.

Yeah, I was talking in part about the fact the battle happened now (with 3 episodes to go) because I think it's related to the overall discussion about the White Walkers being defeated now and Cersei being dealt with after, I didn't want to imply that was anyone here's only (or even main) concern with things. It was more something that I'd seen specifically complained about a lot elsewhere, and since I'd done the legwork to make a point or two about it in another discussion I thought I'd include it here since it was somewhat relevant to what people were talking about, so that's probably why my post might have seemed too focused on that specific point (rather than because anyone here was belabouring it before).

But, I do think it is very relevant to the "political squabbling" vs. "bigger threats" debate, specifically whether what has happened in the story so far indicates that the political squabbling was more important or undercuts the previous message. I can understand why people might feel that way, and same as others have said I'm not trying to say it's wrong to see things that way, just adding to the discussion or saying more about why I see it another. But I think the timing point is important because, well, no one has actually seen the ending yet so when we are talking about how the coming conflict being the focus of the last 3 episodes affects the meaning of the show, we literally only have the information about when the storyline happens and not its content (since we don't know it yet). If the last part of the story really hammers home the idea that the fight against the White Walkers was less important and that this should have been the focus, then yeah, that would definitely undercut the message of the prior part of the show. But, for now I definitely do push back on the idea that just because conflict for the throne continues after the White Walkers that it automatically suggests that it's the more important conflict when it comes to the message of the series in terms of political squabbling vs. bigger threat. That's one of the reasons I see that 94% figure as relevant - a conflict that was hinted at in the opening and was resolved at this stage of an overall story before turning back to other things certainly doesn't suggest a message that those other things are more important based on the timing. When it comes to the content, I think it depends on how the last 6% is treated.

[ariich]

That all seems fair and reasonable, thanks for taking the time to explain! And yeah as I've said, my issues are all provisional and not firm judgements because we still have 3 episodes to go and I'm interested to see what happens.

[The Walrus]

You know what the best part about next episode is? The bright and vivid shots. SUNLIGHT! And not so much washed out blue-grey colors!

EDIT: Just watched a Talking Thrones video and he brought up a point I have never read before. Remember at Hardhome when the Night King watched Jon in battle? Pretty sure he caught Jon killing a White Walker with his sword. Perhaps the Night King raised the wights when Jon was coming for him because he didn't even want to give this guy a chance in combat with him? Like, how many people have seen the Night King not once, but twice, and lived to tell about it?

[RuRoRul]

Very excellent post, RuRoRul! it didn't deserve to disappear in the last post of the previous page so good job on Ariich quoting it.

It's  a very nice and well thought comparison to Lord of the Rings, that surely helps a lot to understand the mindset of people fine with how the show's going.... but I'll have to disagree anyway  not because, as I previously said  to Kev, I'm right and the other are wrong, it's just good fun discussing different points of view.

Definitely understood,  I find it quite interesting to get different perspectives on this stuff and discuss different sides of the point (without it just being too polarized as some of the heated reaction to this has been elsewhere  )

Ariich said it nicely for me - it feels that the overarching theme of the show was just derailed. I completely accept and understand the premise of "the scouring of the Shire" - but, as important Saruman was, there was no doubt that the big issue of the book was destroying the Ring and that had happened. Cersei is not a secondary villain that survived the big bad, she's one of the ovearching villains of the story. A more fitting equivalent of the scouring of the Shire would be the White Walkers defeated, Cersei dethroned, and the Starks coming home to find Euron has conquered Winterfell.

I didn't want either a big battle in the last episode - but I wanted, and I assumed the story hinted as such, the White Walkers to invade all of Westeros, and every single person realizing "Oh shit, we should have paid attention to the importance of the Wall and how some people told us that the real menace was all along beyond the wall". I thought and assumed that the two issues, the battle for the Iron Throne and the existential menace, would merge into a dramatic meleč.

My thoughts and my assumptions are my own, the show writers are not wrong for having different plans in mind, and nobody who disagrees with me is wrong - heck, I'm actually envious of people who are truly riveting in the excitement of the episode, wish I could be one of them! but I know I'm not alone in thinking that we went from "Soon the whole world will realize how stupid and selfish they were" to "Look, Cersei was right all along, let your enemies destroy each other" and that this is a poor change.

Uh well, let's see what the actual, final battle for the Iron Throne will bring!

Personally, I also feel that I definitely wanted to see the White Walker threat cover more of Westeros. Partly because it'd be an interesting transformation, but part of it is just about the basic reactions that a story makes you have to the characters - when you see a smug queen smirking when she hears the Wall has come down and see stuffy old guys in grey robes dismissing or minimizing it, you just want to see them get egg on their faces. Also, it does strike me as more elegant if they could have threaded the two parts together better. But, having said that, I couldn't quite see how they were going to make it work with the defenders trying to stop them at Winterfell, yet them making it down to King's Landing. I thought it would happen because White Walkers making it to King's Landing would be something people including myself wanted to see (which is why I think the "NK flies to King's Landing" theory was so popular, even though personally I didn't think it would really work on screen or make sense with the buildup), but I couldn't really work out how they were going to have heroes fighting but escaping Winterfell. As it turns out, yeah, they couldn't. One thing the Long Night did very well was establishing the fact that they were absolutely fucked. (Undercut a bit by the named characters surviving so long once it'd been shown so well that they were fucked). If they didn't win there was little chance anyone was walking away to stage dramatic battle 2.0 against the White Walkers further south. So even though I liked the image of White Walkers attacking King's Landing, I see it kind of similar to the lack of Robb Stark attacking King's Landing or Casterly Rock - yeah I was up for it and assumed the story was going that way, but given where the story went I can see why it never happened (not that I'm saying this was as good as the Red Wedding).

For whether Cersei was "right" or not, my last reply to ariich relates to that as well - I don't think just because they managed to defeat the White Walkers this early or even before they got further South implies the message about "bigger threats" over "political squabbling" is being reversed, it's just that there is still some "after the world is saved" conflict to come (though I take your point that Cersei on the Iron Throne is very different to the Scouring of the Shire because it already was one of the major storylines rather than an obviously smaller one introduced later). Whether or not the show's messaging suggests Cersei was right will depend pretty much on what happens, and I'm guessing some things will come home to roost for her.

(Though discussing this stuff does make me consider another possibility for the themes of the story - if a bunch of people come together and sacrifice their own position to save the world from a bigger threat, then find themselves at a disadvantage and eaten alive by the people who sacrificed nothing, is the message that it's better to trust that other foolish people will do what needs done and focus on seizing the opportunity for yourself, or that it's worth it to fight the good fight when needed even if it costs you and lets your rivals win? Unfortunately that does strike me as a potentially Game Of Thrones-ish question  Still I don't think it will quite come to that)

[KevShmev]

I am still baffled as to what some expected last week.

There were two options:

1) The Night King wins the battle, meaning all of the living are killed (unless a few scamper south when faced with the inevitable). 

2) The living win the battle, and the only way for them to win was to kill the Night King.

Did some really want to see the Night King win, everyone in the North dead, and for the army of the dead to then march north and do the same to the south?  Yeah, that would have been a real exciting finish to the series.

[gmillerdrake]

Based on some discussions I'd seen elsewhere where people were acting as though the White Walkers had been dealt with so early and how that indicated they were just a sideplot or a plot device for some bigger "endgame", I did a little number crunching to help demonstrate my point: as of the end of the episode The Long Night, we are 94% of the way through Game of Thrones. And yes, that's accurate down to minutes of runtime (based on the estimated lengths for the last 3 episodes, which might be approximate placeholders rather than exact, but still). So when we're talking about the White Walker storyline and whether or not that was set aside too early, we're talking about a storyline that was introduced in the first scene and had it's climax 94% of the way through the entire story. So it's not over because it was set aside for a "bigger endgame" - it's over because it's near the end of the story.

Been meaning to comment on this part of RuRoRul's post....because of the sentiment that is out there that the resolution to the Night King was 'rushed'. It simply wasn't. I think a lot of people assumed that resolution would be the 'last' one we witnessed as viewers....it wasn't....but, in no way did it diminish the story about the White Walkers and Night King. It ran its course....and now it's (presumably) done.

[Bolsters]

n/a

[MirrorMask]

@RuRoRul, I agree with you that in the grand scheme of things, concluding the existential threat at 94% of the story isn't a bad thing, and you hit the nail on the head about what my and many other people's expectations were - see Cersei realize that she royally fucked up when a horde of wights knocks at her door, and see those smug maesters realize that Sam was right all along, and all of Westeros with them. Not only they will never realize it - most people south of the Twins as I said won't even believe the White Walkers existed.

I agree however that the problem with the army of the dead is that they're not a regular army - they have not a militar goal, they can't be reasoned with, you can't strike a truce with them - they're an unstoppable force of nature, so there's no middle ground, they either conquer everything or get annihilated. It's difficult to have the heroes defeated but living to fight another day in such a scenario.

How would I have done it? heck if I know! some possible choices:

- Since the Night King does not speak anyway and their motives are vague (but most likely there was nothing more to "Weapon of the Children of the Forest gone rogue; they want to destroy humanity and their memory and that's it"), he could have killed Bran and, his major goal achieved, just left Winterfell and kept marching south to conquer all of Westeros, because of mystical reasons or whatever. Defeat the Three Eyed Raven and move on.
- Have Winterfell perfectly walled up and defended during a siege; the heroes realize the battle is lost and that they should run away. It has been estabilished there are secrets passages out of Winterfell and Yara conquered the Iron Islands back as a fall back point in case Winterfell was lost, that looked like foreshadowing. Have the survivors regroup there and form a plan to go back to a now fully conquered Westeros and destroy the Night King once and for all. That would have somehow explained the vision of Dany walking in a destroyed and snowy throne hall - they eventually reach King's Landing and she ponders "so this is what I wanted all my life.. and look what happened, a long gone menace came back and destroyed the world as we knew it, how naive I was and how silly everyone were to fight for a chair", that sort of thing.

[pg1067]

I am still baffled as to what some expected last week.

There were two options:

1) The Night King wins the battle, meaning all of the living are killed (unless a few scamper south when faced with the inevitable). 

2) The living win the battle, and the only way for them to win was to kill the Night King.

Did some really want to see the Night King win, everyone in the North dead, and for the army of the dead to then march north and do the same to the south?  Yeah, that would have been a real exciting finish to the series.

I say the following as a person who liked 8:3 and had no expectations going into it (I never create expectations as to what will happen in a movie or TV show):

There's something of a middle ground between those two options.  It would not have been crazy to imagine a more drawn out battle in which it becomes obvious that the NK would win and many of the main characters retreat south (including JS and DT on their dragons).  That could have set up a subsequent conflict in which the main characters and the remains of the northern armies are caught in the middle between the Lannister forces and the army of the dead.

[ariich]

I am still baffled as to what some expected last week.

There were two options:

1) The Night King wins the battle, meaning all of the living are killed (unless a few scamper south when faced with the inevitable). 

2) The living win the battle, and the only way for them to win was to kill the Night King.

Did some really want to see the Night King win, everyone in the North dead, and for the army of the dead to then march north and do the same to the south?  Yeah, that would have been a real exciting finish to the series.

I'm baffled as to why you think those were the only two options.

[The Walrus]

To be fair I don't think he's wrong. The only way to win at all is to kill the NK, and if the tide had continued in the zombies' favor, anybody who was even lucky enough to survive would have to haul ass south (and probably eventually tire out and get overrun by the dead). And as expensive as the show is I don't think they'd have the budget for TWO Night King army battles of that scale.

[Adami]

Did they already have a "truce" or whatever with the NK from long ago? First, they did not portray him as someone who could even do that, second, if he could do it once, seems like it would make a bit more sense than killing him the way they did.

[cramx3]

Did they already have a "truce" or whatever with the NK from long ago? First, they did not portray him as someone who could even do that, second, if he could do it once, seems like it would make a bit more sense than killing him the way they did.

The show hasn't shown any other side to the Night King besides being a zombie essentially, so I doubt it, there is some hope in the books to there being more.  This Truce you speak of is a big fan theory, but it may just be nothing in the end like the show.

[Adami]

Did they already have a "truce" or whatever with the NK from long ago? First, they did not portray him as someone who could even do that, second, if he could do it once, seems like it would make a bit more sense than killing him the way they did.

The show hasn't shown any other side to the Night King besides being a zombie essentially, so I doubt it, there is some hope in the books to there being more.  This Truce you speak of is a big fan theory, but it may just be nothing in the end like the show.

Huh. I could have sworn the show mentioned it, but I might be wrong.

Also if he's just a zombie, then how did he make whatever deal with Craster? I doubt that dude just randomly started leaving babies out and the Wights just were like "well....guess we keep him alive?" Feels like some level of organization and communication had to go into that set up. 


One more thing. So I know the show has never said anything about this, and it's all just speculation on my part. But I always had the impression that the NK had some kind of foresight. When Dany came with the dragons, he seemed VERY prepared for such a random and unpredictable (to him) event. Dude had spears ready to go and even had the chains necessary to drag the dragon out of the water. So I'm left to believe that either A) He just carries those chains with him that serve virtually no other purpose, or B) Was able to see all of this happen and was prepared well ahead of time. If it's B, then his death makes even less sense to me.