I'll say for the Xth time that I really don't get the criticism of Mike's drumming. I just don't comprehend it. I mean, I get that it is more or less the same as what we've heard. But I mean I don't get it as a criticism. He's a drummer. The vast majority of drummers don't change or evolve their style much over time. And even when they do add some new things, due to the nature of the instrument, it often times isn't going to sound "new" even in those circumstances. Maybe I'm missing something, but it just seems to me that you either like Mike's drumming or you don't. And if you did and you've lost interest over time, then that's really not on him, and it just is what it is.
Think about it this way. Compare the following works of MP that are several years apart:
Train of Thought
BC&SL
Psychotic Symphony
You really won't hear much of a difference in the drumming in these albums. I would contend that almost all of MP's techniques in these albums, you would pretty much hear as variations of The Glass Prison and Blind Faith. And even for those two songs, you could already trace the style in Peruvian Skies and Trial of Tears.
Now let's compare for example with Mangini. Compare Elements of Persuasion and ADTOE. The snare and bass technique plus the lefty to righty shifts are retained but the difference in the orchestration is substantial. ADTOE is really MM's first time to showcase how he can support so many instruments at once.
But it doesn't stop there. Compare ADTOE with DT12. The difference again is susbstantial. You now hear for the first time those drum fills that use almost the whole kit. Then there are new polyrhythm combinations, most prominent in IT and Enigma Machine. And most important new technique is MM using two hi-hats or two rides at the same time, which are most prominent in TLG instrumental, in STR first stanza, and in the IT first stanza and chorus. He would incorporate that technique in The Astonishing and in the current IW&B tour, most noticeable in Take The Time.
But it still doesn't stop there. Compare DT12 with TA. SwingJazz blastebeats in Thee Days. Simultaneous snare rolls in Astonishing. Playing the ride with one hand while doing a melodic tom pattern with the other in Dystopian Overture. Then the whole The Walking Shadow. Those are things we haven't heard before.
I could do the same thing with Virgil Donati and Marco Minnemann. But the point is, Portnoy is a talented drummer but he really stopped growing with SDOIT. After that, he is just recombining old stuff. Still fun to play, but if you're a drummer, everything would really be familiar.
But some of that isn't apples to apples. I'm not a drummer, but since it was widely reported that the level of contribution from Mangini in crafting the parts on ADTOE and 12 were very different, I'm not sure the "differences" are solely attributable to Mangini's creative superiority.
And at the end of the day, to what end? I sat in the theater for The Astonishing first waiting for intermission to get a beer, then waiting to see if we were getting anything special for the encore. I sat in TSOAD with tears in my eyes watching every note, hearing every word. I watched every minute of Shattered Fortress, watching each moment those musicians took. The point here isn't to downplay the drumming - I get that this discussion is about that, not the music itself - but it is to say that "dual handed reverse paradiddles in 16/13 time played in conjunction with blastbeats in 9/12 time" isn't the only way to further the craft or be creative. It's also a fair statement to say that songs like Kayla, The Storm, Stranger In Your Soul, Regret, and Momentum resonate differently than, say, Light Fuse and Get Away, and I think it's fair to say that at least some of that is attributable to Portnoy being a better drummer.
Some of this is perhaps colored by the fact that I just saw Yngwie Malmsteen for the first time the other night, because he's sort of the same way for me, but as for "feel", who knows who plays with more feel? All I know is that FOR ME, Portnoy can play 16/13 and make it feel to me like 4/4, Mangini plays 4/4 and makes it feel to me like 16/13. The others in my drumming Mt. Rushmore - Peart, Collins, Bonham - do something similar. That's how the great ones roll; to this day I hear drummers say how it's hard to play things like "Rock And Roll" and capture it exactly right.
That's not really a fair comparison either though as you clearly aren't a fan of TA and therefore it was likely that you were not going to be into the concert, not sure this can be put purely on Mangini as I saw that show and his drumming was out of this world, thought he was the best thing about it and I'm not a drummer.
Neal Morse music is emotionally charged and often brings a tear my eye so yeah, that show would have been great (again, not purely due to Mike Portnoy though) and the Shattered Fortress show was always going to be special as it was Mike coming back and playing DT songs again.
Basically then you are comparing two emotionally charged shows consisting of material that you love with a concert of material you dislike and this is supposed to be evidence that one is a better drummer than the other?
Clearly Mike Portnoy is an all time great drummer, you don't win the plaudits and awards he has if that is not the case. He is also a hugely technical drummer, those trying to suggest Mangini is a technical player and Portnoy is a feel player are not seeing the full picture. They are both OTT flashy drummers, Portnoy is probably the poster boy for ridiculous technical drumming. My friend, who is a drummer, always refers to Mike Portnoy as the Yngwie Malmsteen of drumming, huge ego, huge show off rather than playing for the song. When he heard TA, he said immediately you could tell it wasn't MP as the drumming was much more restrained. I also remember, when Therapy? were auditioning drummers, them commenting that a load of people were coming in with these massive kits thinking they were Mike Portnoy. He is known as a technical monster drummer, not a feel player.
I personally have always enjoyed MP's playing and his live presence on stage, he is a show off but that's always been part of DT's appeal, they can all play to an extraordinary level and they're going to show just how good they are. I don't totally buy into the Yngwie comment and think he is more musical than some give him credit for. His drumming in some of the epic DT and NM moments is just sublime and totally adds to those moments with these explosive fills.
I think it is true that he has stopped evolving, he now has his box of tricks and uses them as he sees fit, he admits that he doesn't practice anymore, doesn't do clinics anymore and that's absolutely fine, why should he when he plays in so many bands which must put a strain on his ageing limbs as it is. He's earned the right after so many years to just have fun playing drums and use his experience rather than try to learn new things. Also, at the end of the day, he's just the drummer, no matter how inventive and clever the drumming is, it will not have a huge effect on the song, I've never heard of a bad song saved by great drumming!
It has been nice to hear some new things on recent DT albums but not sure how much of that is because I'm not familiar with Mangini's other work or because he is doing new stuff. There are certain moments when Mangini is a little too restrained for me in some of the epic moments and I miss MP exploding all over it. There are other times though when he blows my mind with some incredible technical super speed drumming. Seeing him perform two drum rolls simultaneously with his two hands live was just jaw dropping as I never realised on the record that it was happening.
They are both great drummers, I don't think Mangini should be derided because he does innovative technical things and likes to explain them in detail (like the teacher that he is) and don't think Mike should be derided for sticking to what he knows after 20 odd years of kicking everyone's ass.
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Topic: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian) (Read 475676 times)