An MM vs. MP observation

[bardic_tortoise]

First time poster, here. I've been lurking for a little while, since the Seattle show on 9-27 where Laeteralus and Glaurung happened to be in line ahead of me and introduced me to the concept of DTF.

One thing has occurred to me regarding Mangini's drumming on this new album which I haven't really seen expressed here (apologies if it has been hashed out already). In retrospect it seems to me that MP played drums in Dream Theater as more of a lead instrument, and MM plays in more of the classic support position that you see in much rock music. It seems to me that this is fairly evident, regardless of which style one prefers.

This is, of course, informed by what I know of the attitudes of the drummers as well as what I hear going on musically, so it's quite possible that it is biased. I know that MP always seemed to want to be out in front on a conceptual level (interfacing with fans, bringing the music to the world, etc.) and I wonder if this influenced the way he wrote parts. ("I'm not just a support role here, I'm my own thing!") This is complete interpretation on my part, so feel free to argue (though I know I don't have to tell you that--you will anyway).

It is, of course, also possible that the drums being down in the mix, as many have been saying about ADToE, has created this illusion. Personally and subjectively I don't notice much of a relative volume difference between drums on ADToE and previous records. I do hear more MM parts which echo other instruments (the famous octoban-matching-bass sequence on Outcry) and bolster them rather than creating stand-out counterparts or going-against for the sake of interesting musical effect that MP seemed to do more of.

Thoughts?

[Zook]

Barlow>Ripper

Tarja>Annette

[bosk1]

^I think that's a fair way of looking at it.  Whether that is what MP and MM intended, I'm not sure.  But I think that is certainly how it comes across to the listener. 

Portnoy's up-front, "lead" style of playing really shines through when he is playing prog., as in DT, Transatlantic, and Neal Morse.  But he shows he can also play more of the backseat role when playing more straightforward material, such as in his covers projects, on cover songs he has done with the three bands above, and even in more straightforward metal bands like Avenged and Adrenaline Mob. 

Mangini, on the other hand, often seems to be a lot more subtle in his playing so that even when he is doing something amazing, it's not as in your face, so it is easy to miss if you aren't paying attention to what he is doing.  And the times he does want something huge and in your face, there is a more pronounced difference in dynamics that calls your attention to it. 

If you are a fan of insane drumming, it's a great time to be a DT fan, IMO.  We have ten mindblowing albums from Mike Portnoy.  And a new album and potentially long, productive future of completely different mindblowing albums from Mangini. 

[bardic_tortoise]

But he shows he can also play more of the backseat role when playing more straightforward material, such as in his covers projects, on cover songs he has done with the three bands above, and even in more straightforward metal bands like Avenged and Adrenaline Mob.

Agreed.

If you are a fan of insane drumming, it's a great time to be a DT fan, IMO.  We have ten mindblowing albums from Mike Portnoy.  And a new album and potentially long, productive future of completely different mindblowing albums from Mangini. 

Agreed x100.

[bardic_tortoise]

Barlow>Ripper

Tarja>Annette

Got the second one. Had to Google the first . 

[vulcandj]

^Portnoy's up-front, "lead" style of playing really shines through when he is playing prog., as in DT, Transatlantic, and Neal Morse.  But he shows he can also play more of the backseat role when playing more straightforward material, such as in his covers projects, on cover songs he has done with the three bands above, and even in more straightforward metal bands like Avenged and Adrenaline Mob. 

Mangini, on the other hand, often seems to be a lot more subtle in his playing so that even when he is doing something amazing, it's not as in your face, so it is easy to miss if you aren't paying attention to what he is doing.  And the times he does want something huge and in your face, there is a more pronounced difference in dynamics that calls your attention to it. 

If you are a fan of insane drumming, it's a great time to be a DT fan, IMO.  We have ten mindblowing albums from Mike Portnoy.  And a new album and potentially long, productive future of completely different mindblowing albums from Mangini.

I think that this was well stated, and that I agree with it.

[reneranucci]

^Portnoy's up-front, "lead" style of playing really shines through when he is playing prog., as in DT, Transatlantic, and Neal Morse.  But he shows he can also play more of the backseat role when playing more straightforward material, such as in his covers projects, on cover songs he has done with the three bands above, and even in more straightforward metal bands like Avenged and Adrenaline Mob. 

Mangini, on the other hand, often seems to be a lot more subtle in his playing so that even when he is doing something amazing, it's not as in your face, so it is easy to miss if you aren't paying attention to what he is doing.  And the times he does want something huge and in your face, there is a more pronounced difference in dynamics that calls your attention to it. 

If you are a fan of insane drumming, it's a great time to be a DT fan, IMO.  We have ten mindblowing albums from Mike Portnoy.  And a new album and potentially long, productive future of completely different mindblowing albums from Mangini.

I think that this was well stated, and that I agree with it.

Me too.

[BlobVanDam]

I think it all just comes down to the drum mix. If MM's drums had the same mix as the drums on BCASL, I'm not sure I'd hear the difference overall, aside from the crazy fast stuff that MM does.

[SystematicThought]

When you listen to the OTBOA drum stem there is a lot of stuff that Mangini does that is EXTREMELY complex and very MP-ish if you will. There's a lot of splashes used that you can not hear. If the drums were a bit higher on ADTOE, which sounds like 8V's drum mix, MM's parts may have sounded a bit more familiar.

[nikatapi]

When you listen to the OTBOA drum stem there is a lot of stuff that Mangini does that is EXTREMELY complex and very MP-ish if you will. There's a lot of splashes used that you can not hear. If the drums were a bit higher on ADTOE, which sounds like 8V's drum mix, MM's parts may have sounded a bit more familiar.

This is so true. Actually the cymbal mix imho is a bit flawed, there is so much stuff going on that sometimes is completely silent on the record. I noticed this when MM posted the Outcry clip, and there were some cymbal hits i hadn't listened to the actual album before. The mix sometimes buries the cymbals almost completely.

[EstyMaJ]

If you see Magini live you would change your mind but Yes i agree with most here, that it is all do to the low mix - I hated it at first but once you get use to it on the album it does give everyone else on the album more breathing room and you hear everything better even in the tickle section ;-).I do hope that the next album they give magini a bit more power to his sound . but all and all  Portnoy has always been one of my favorite all time drummers and now Mangini is too!!!

[bardic_tortoise]

When you listen to the OTBOA drum stem there is a lot of stuff that Mangini does that is EXTREMELY complex and very MP-ish if you will. There's a lot of splashes used that you can not hear. If the drums were a bit higher on ADTOE, which sounds like 8V's drum mix, MM's parts may have sounded a bit more familiar.

It is true that I have not heard the stem, however I wonder if you don't hear the splashes and other flourishes not just because they are down in the mix, but because he wrote them to "lock in" with other instruments and they are masked by those parts on the album. You wouldn't necessarily be able to hear this on the stem, it being only the isolated drum parts. But that could be totally bogus, I don't know. It'd be neat if some audio wiz would take the stem and mix it back in with the album but at a higher level. I think that would yield some interesting analysis.

Also, it's not that the drum parts don't sound familiar, per se. When I first heard OTBOA streaming online, I thought to myself: "I'm not sure I would have noticed anything different if I didn't know that MP was gone." It could be that I'm way off base with this whole theory. It would be interesting to hear the band members address it, but I doubt that they will in any public way given how everything is going right now. It's more important to just say, "We're happy with where we are, we're moving on." Maybe in years to come we'll get some snippets to enlighten us on DVDs or Blu-Rays.

If you see Magini live you would change your mind but Yes i agree with most here, that it is all do to the low mix - I hated it at first but once you get use to it on the album it does give everyone else on the album more breathing room and you hear everything better even in the tickle section ;-).I do hope that the next album they give magini a bit more power to his sound . but all and all  Portnoy has always been one of my favorite all time drummers and now Mangini is too!!!

I have seen Mangini live, as I mentioned at the top of the first post. I wanted to purposefully leave my original question as neutral as possible to see how people would react, but now I feel I can reveal a bit about my personal feelings:

I loved MP's parts. I love MM's parts. I'm not so much interested in talking about a distinction in quality as a distinction in writing styles. We'll have to see how MM's part-writing unfolds over the next few albums, I think.

[TAC]

MM's parts on ADTOE are mixed too low, especially the double bass drumming. Now that I have seen what he plays during certain parts, I can now "hear" them better when listening to the CD.

[GasparXR]

MM's parts on ADTOE are mixed too low, especially the double bass drumming. Now that I have seen what he plays during certain parts, I can now "hear" them better when listening to the CD.

That is true. If you know a part to a song really well, if you listen to a version without that part being played, you can almost feel its presence.

[rush-signals]

I've been wanting to ask these same questions. I just wonder if JP on purpose wrote MM's parts to remove any similarities to MP's playing?

[Chrissalix]

I've been wanting to ask these same questions. I just wonder if JP on purpose wrote MM's parts to remove any similarities to MP's playing?

I doubt it. MM said he spent ages playing along to MP's DVD's in order to learn the songs so anything that has crept in is probably a result of that. Mangini played a role on this album. On the next one, he'll be unleashed. We are not ready for the results.

[bardic_tortoise]

I've been wanting to ask these same questions. I just wonder if JP on purpose wrote MM's parts to remove any similarities to MP's playing?

That's an interesting theory, but according to JP and MM in recent interviews, JP only wrote scratch parts for the songs, and MM came in and rewrote them and added his own stuff before recording. Sort of like JP does to JMX's lyrics. 

[lithium112]

Mangini played a role on this album. On the next one, he'll be unleashed. We are not ready for the results.

I actually wonder whether this will happen or not. JP and JR have said multiple times how much they enjoyed writing without a drummer so maybe they'll choose to continue this trend for later releases? I certainly hope not because I'd love to hear what MM's influence can bring, but I guess we'll see.

[rush-signals]

My point was maybe JP didn't want MM to play anything like MP so he wouldn't be labeled a copycat or not become his own with the fans. I know all about the album process and what everyone brought to it. MP wanted to be the "lead" drummer and maybe JP hinted or something like "please MM don't play a zillion crazy fills like MP"? If he did play like MP would the fans have been more happy or less? Sure it would sound familiar, but then MM would just sound like a fill-in drummer IMO.

That's an interesting theory, but according to JP and MM in recent interviews, JP only wrote scratch parts for the songs, and MM came in and rewrote them and added his own stuff before recording. Sort of like JP does to JMX's lyrics. 

[ResultsMayVary]

I've been wanting to ask these same questions. I just wonder if JP on purpose wrote MM's parts to remove any similarities to MP's playing?

MM wrote his own parts, not JP. I really wish people would actually give MM credit for what he wrote.

My point was maybe JP didn't want MM to play anything like MP so he wouldn't be labeled a copycat or not become his own with the fans. I know all about the album process and what everyone brought to it. MP wanted to be the "lead" drummer and maybe JP hinted or something like "please MM don't play a zillion crazy fills like MP"? If he did play like MP would the fans have been more happy or less? Sure it would sound familiar, but then MM would just sound like a fill-in drummer IMO.

MM has said himself that he played his parts on the album for reasons he wanted. You hear MM's personal style on the record, not the band trying to avoid from playing something similar to MP. MM has said in multiple interviews that he plays the way he does, has the drum kit the way he does, mostly to satisfy himself and the "inner kid" he has. JP had a say in what goes and doesn't because he's the producer, but MM has said that he was able to go nuts with the parts after they sent him the demos. Btw, if anything, i've heard more crazy MM stuff on this record than MP has done in the past few, so I'd rule out the possibility of them not wanting to go as crazy as MP. MM has clearly supposed the level of craziness that MP's playing has been on the past few records. MM should play his own style as he did and the fans love it. I want to hear MM, not an MP copycat.

[dbrooks22]

MM is WAY too low in the mix on ADTOE.  The more i listen, the more it bothers me.  I shouldn't have to strain my ears to catch what he is doing.  I understand the intention, but they went too far in toning down the drums. 

[ResultsMayVary]

MM is WAY too low in the mix on ADTOE.  The more i listen, the more it bothers me.  I shouldn't have to strain my ears to catch what he is doing.  I understand the intention, but they went too far in toning down the drums.

For me, at least, this feeling comes from hearing MP being loud in the mix. I'm not used to how low the drums are, but it doesn't bother me that much. I listen to plenty of other bands who have had similar mixes regarding drums.

[bardic_tortoise]

For me, at least, this feeling comes from hearing MP being loud in the mix. I'm not used to how low the drums are, but it doesn't bother me that much. I listen to plenty of other bands who have had similar mixes regarding drums.

I've had that same thought more than once.

I wonder how much of what people are reacting to is just the relative loudness. I think drums on prior DT records have been pretty in your face, which is not objectively better or worse than this one, just different.

[BlobVanDam]

For me, at least, this feeling comes from hearing MP being loud in the mix. I'm not used to how low the drums are, but it doesn't bother me that much. I listen to plenty of other bands who have had similar mixes regarding drums.

I've had that same thought more than once.

I wonder how much of what people are reacting to is just the relative loudness. I think drums on prior DT records have been pretty in your face, which is not objectively better or worse than this one, just different.

I would like to point out that people do listen to music other than DT. I myself had not been listening to any DT for a fair while before hearing ADTOE, and it still instantly struck me how soft the drums were compared to most albums I listen to, and not just previous DT albums.

[bardic_tortoise]

I would like to point out that people do listen to music other than DT.

Hah. Yes. Fair point. I was committing a logical fallacy.

I don't know that it would have occurred to me that MMs drums are down in the mix if everyone hadn't been saying it, but your experience is certainly valid, as is everyone else's who is saying the same thing.