DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Madman Shepherd on November 04, 2021, 09:05:57 AM
-
Well?
For me, the drum sound on I&W was so dated it actually inhibited my interest for the longest time. After I got into DT in 2000, I liked almost every album more than I&W. I finally got over it but still don't care for the drums.
DT12 I find in the same vein except I actually kinda like the odd sounding snare and love some of the other sounds like the cracking of the, I think, mounted toms. I remember somebody on this forum saying they actually like the I&W sound which I had trouble understanding. I can totally understand why someone wouldn't like DT12's drums and I'm glad they corrected the sound after that album but for me, it's kind of a slice in time that makes DT12 standout.
-
As much as I would like to vote Images and Words, what they did to Mangini's cymbals in DT12, more than the snare sound, is what is making me vote for DT12. What AVFTTOTW showed us is that Mangini does good cymbal work, if you can actually hear it.
-
I know "worse" is simply a comparator, and is not itself an indicator of overall quality, but I can't really vote. I don't have a major problem with the drum sound on either album. Yeah, the triggered drum sound on I&W makes it sound artificial. But it is what it is, and it is just kinda part of that album's "signature sound." It doesn't really distract me because it was just "there" back when I first got into the band back in '92.
I have never had a problem with the drum sound itself on DT12, and for the handful of fans that have loudly proclaimed through the years that the drum sound is "bad," I just don't hear what you are hearing. As far as the cymbal work being buried in the mix, yeah, I have a BIG problem with that. But by the same token, I don't really dwell on it because I don't know what it is that I'm missing, since I can't hear it, if that makes sense.
-
My opinion is biased based on how much I like each album or how much I don't like DT12. Sure the drums are dated on I&W, but it's a way better album so it doesn't really matter. If the drums are better on DT12, that won't change the fact that I only like 3 songs on that album. So, from purely a drumming standpoint, I can't submit a vote. :dunno:
-
Dream Theater definitely. Images and Words is triggered but it only sounds triggered. The snare sound works for the music.
The DT12 snare ruins songs.
As I've said before - I might have enjoyed Along For The Ride more - but then you get a nice soft ballad with DOOF DOOF DOOF !!!
-
Actually I just listened to Along For The Ride and the snare sounds even WORSE than I remember.
It sounds like the snare is not only detuned but turned off . It sounds like a tom FFS.
Oh and It still annoys me how Jordan's moog solo comes in a 16th note late.
-
It sounds like the snare is not only detuned but turned off . It sounds like a tom FFS.
??? Why is that a problem?
Oh and It still annoys me how Jordan's moog solo comes in a 16th note late.
It's funny because it really does almost sound like a glitch. But he plays it that way live, so it is clearly intentional. Jordan outprogged the prog fans. :lol
-
It sounds like the snare is not only detuned but turned off . It sounds like a tom FFS.
??? Why is that a problem?
Oh and It still annoys me how Jordan's moog solo comes in a 16th note late.
It's funny because it really does almost sound like a glitch. But he plays it that way live, so it is clearly intentional. Jordan outprogged the prog fans. :lol
probably cause *I* said it....
-
DT12 is much worse to me. One of the few albums bad production actively hurts it. And its not just the drums.
Images and Words is just a product of its time. Dt12 they had no excuse with the money available and creative freedoms.
-
DT12 is much worse to me. One of the few albums bad production actively hurts it. And its not just the drums.
Images and Words is just a product of its time. Dt12 they had no excuse with the money available and creative freedoms.
Exactly. The producer on Images was like "No. This is how its going down. Deal with it"
On Dream Theater the producer was THE BAND.
-
DT12 is much worse to me. One of the few albums bad production actively hurts it. And its not just the drums.
Images and Words is just a product of its time. Dt12 they had no excuse with the money available and creative freedoms.
Exactly. The producer on Images was like "No. This is how its going down. Deal with it"
On Dream Theater the producer was THE BAND.
The producer on Dream Theater was John Petrucci. He said how it was going down.
-
I voted for DT12. 8 years after the release, I still find it extremely difficult to believe that they consciously chose this drum sound. I just can't imagine that JP (or anybody else in the studio) said "oh yeah, THIS is the perfect drum sound we were looking for".
-
Richard Chycki engineered The Astonishing as well - but he was absent on D/T and A View From The Top.
-
Mangini has referenced in interviews that when Jimmy T started engineering (D/T) that they worked together to find the right drum sound for him. Like, the first couple of albums he didn’t have much say in it.
-
Images and Words is just a product of its time.
My thoughts exactly. Same with the reverse reverb on the snare for the Awake album. It is what it is.
Personally though, I find the mix for the drums on ADTOE to be pretty bad. They were so quiet and lacked definition.
-
Mangini has referenced in interviews that when Jimmy T started engineering (D/T) that they worked together to find the right drum sound for him. Like, the first couple of albums he didn’t have much say in it.
I also saw a recent interview with Mangini where he said the drum sound on Distance Over Time was "terrible" - which was VERY shocking. I thought he was happy with it.
I don't think he'll be happy with anything tbh. He seems very passive aggressive about his drumming.
-
Mangini has referenced in interviews that when Jimmy T started engineering (D/T) that they worked together to find the right drum sound for him. Like, the first couple of albums he didn’t have much say in it.
I also saw a recent interview with Mangini where he said the drum sound on Distance Over Time was "terrible" - which was VERY shocking. I thought he was happy with it.
I don't think he'll be happy with anything tbh. He seems very passive aggressive about his drumming.
Everything I’ve heard from him about the D/T drum sound has been positive. That’s strange.
-
I know all artists are 100% positive about their latest album for marketing / promo.. Then a year or so down the line they start talking about how they really felt about it.
...unless you're Noel Gallagher who called Be Here Now " same old pub rock bollocks "
and Shoulder of Giants " an 8/10 album. There's 2 shit songs on it "
Both during the promo cycle :lol
-
Easy - A Change of Seasons.......
Freakin aweful! :tdwn
-
Easy - A Change of Seasons.......
Freakin aweful! :tdwn
Do you realize what you did there? It's awe-ful? Or freakin full of awe, translating to freakin awesome! :lol
-
awe - SOME = GREAT !
awe - FULL = TERRIBLE
Words am fun !
-
Easy - A Change of Seasons.......
Freakin aweful! :tdwn
Wrong poll.
DT12 easily for me.
-
Man, I figured the results would be this way but not *that* skewed! I find it especially peculiar that some people can forgive the dated I&W sound because that's just what was done during that era. IMO, that makes it more unforgivable because it was just a trend that was followed as opposed to a deliberate, if not a bit odd, choice that was made during DT12.
Oh and It still annoys me how Jordan's moog solo comes in a 16th note late.
It's funny because it really does almost sound like a glitch. But he plays it that way live, so it is clearly intentional. Jordan outprogged the prog fans. :lol
I never really noticed it so I guess I always assumed it was his artistic choice. Already off topic but I do want to say that it is definitely one of my favorite JR solos and I normally don't pay much attention to that.
-
Definitely the self-titled, although neither is the worst drum sound in Dream Theater’s discography. Obviously When Dream and Day Unite isn’t produced particularly well, and the drums are no exception. A Change of Seasons has one of the worst snare drum sounds I’ve ever heard. The toms on Train of Thought sound like they’re made of plastic and have these awful high overtones present. And the drums are way too low in the mix on A Dramatic Turn of Events and sound very muddy. For me, these drum recordings all sound way worse than Images and Words or the self-titled album.
-
I&W wasn’t so much a trend that was followed, they just had such primitive gear at the time that Prater felt unable to get a usable drum sound. He therefore made the decision to go with the pads as there was no other option. At least that’s how I remember it from the Lifting Shadows book.
As it happens neither of these particularly bother me. The worst by far for me is ACOS. I love the song so I usually manage not to notice it but, other times, I can’t stop hearing how bad it sounds.
-
I can't imagine, realistically, there being a better drum sound for I&W than what was on the CD. The 2007 remixes were engineered okay, but they aren't Images and Words.
In concept I liked what they went for with DT12's drums. Dark album = dark drums! Why not!? Plus I'm down for things that are different. In execution, it only worked out okay. From a sonic color perspective it worked out well. But there are so many weird bugs that make it not great. The cymbal mix somehow overpowers the mix yet is indistinct at the same time. The snare sometimes sounds too dry and sometimes you can hear a bit too much of the low reverb. The attack of the toms is way louder than the body.
As much as I think people give the drums on DT12 too much shit... still the obvious vote in this poll.
Oh and It still annoys me how Jordan's moog solo comes in a 16th note late.
I know man. I know
-
IaW production may be a bit dated, but it's well produced, just like most anything else released in the early 90s.
I think the 80s/early 90s production qualities have a certain charm to them, and they will outlive the bad production values of albums (by anyone really) released in the 00s and 10s.
-
Personally I find the drum sound of I&W TOTALLY ANNOYING, as I always did.
But OK, fine. I can live with that and it remains my favorite DT record. And that's exactly why I can't understand comments like "oh the production of record X completely ruined it for me". Seems a bit exaggerated IMO (save extreme cases - and rare).
-
I will admit that I am not a fan of "dated" being used as a criticism (many of the greatest rock albums of all time sound of their era/time period, which by definition makes them dated), but I have never had a problem with the sound of the drums on I&W and still don't.
-
None of the above.
A Change of Seasons has the worst sounding drums AND the worst overall recording in their catalogue.
-
I have no idea. I just listen for the songs.
-
I have no idea. I just listen for the songs.
:lol :tup
-
None of the above.
A Change of Seasons has the worst sounding drums AND the worst overall recording in their catalogue.
Again, that's not pertinent to THIS poll. See above.
-
Could pull the trump card and just say WDADU.
-
Van Halen III
-
Van Halen III
I feel that the album cover was inspiration for that albums drum sound.
-
I will admit that I am not a fan of "dated" being used as a criticism (many of the greatest rock albums of all time sound of their era/time period, which by definition makes them dated), but I have never had a problem with the sound of the drums on I&W and still don't.
Agreed. Dated doesn't necessarily mean bad.
-
I never even realized (or perhaps I did and forgot) that the cymbals were buried in the mix on the self-titled album. I'll have to listen to that one again some time.
-
I never thought any DT album had bad sounding drums. Never crossed my mind. Keyboard sounds on the other hand…there are moments that made me cringe and still do. And really - was bringing back that honky tonk piano necessary? So yeah, that’s part of the reason why the first albums are among my favorites.
-
I'm no drum expert, but the lack of dynamics on the snare in I&W (Metropolis specifically) definitely sound odd to my ear
-
None of the above.
A Change of Seasons has the worst sounding drums AND the worst overall recording in their catalogue.
THIS
The production for the track A Change of Seasons, with that early Primus sounding popping snare overpowering everything else, and the high-mids distorted guitar after what sounds like well recorded acoustic guitar, made me turn it off so often in my early DT discovery days, that it took years for me to get into the song. It took the LSFNY version to get me into ACOS (which I also think is the superior version in general)
-
I only have a problem with the weak snare on ACOS. Images and Words sounds just fine. DT12 sounds like shit. The HDTracks version is slightly better, but that album just needs a remix. The snare sounds muffled half the time and the octabons just don't sound good at all.
I don't like the drums on The Astonishing either. The snare and double kicks (I love double kicks) sound robotic, and the double kicks are out of place and amateurish. Maybe he was under the weather for that album.
-
Along for the ride. Worst drum sound ever,
I actually like the rest of DT12, as an example I really love that snare on The Enemy Inside, and you can also hear all the rest of MM's kit perfectly.
But everything is wrong on Along for the ride, even the tuning of the snare is off.
-
None of the above.
A Change of Seasons has the worst sounding drums AND the worst overall recording in their catalogue.
THIS
The production for the track A Change of Seasons, with that early Primus sounding popping snare overpowering everything else, and the high-mids distorted guitar after what sounds like well recorded acoustic guitar, made me turn it off so often in my early DT discovery days, that it took years for me to get into the song. It took the LSFNY version to get me into ACOS (which I also think is the superior version in general)
For the 3rd time, irrelevent to the OP's poll.
-
Re: Which album has WORSE sounding drums?
??? Maybe DT12 Maybe Images and Words. Why does it even matter ???
What does it even have to do with VLASTO DAY ?
-
None of the above.
A Change of Seasons has the worst sounding drums AND the worst overall recording in their catalogue.
THIS
The production for the track A Change of Seasons, with that early Primus sounding popping snare overpowering everything else, and the high-mids distorted guitar after what sounds like well recorded acoustic guitar, made me turn it off so often in my early DT discovery days, that it took years for me to get into the song. It took the LSFNY version to get me into ACOS (which I also think is the superior version in general)
For the 3rd time, irrelevent to the OP's poll.
It is, but I don't mind hearing other people's opinions on this. I almost included a "something else" option but really wanted to see these two albums head to head. Kind of surprised to hear ACOS is considered worst among a few. I guess I can see that, sort of.
Obviously WDADU would be a top contender if I opened it up to all albums but that one is really a product of the circumstances as opposed to a stylistic choice.
-
DT has the worst drum mix, whereas I&W has the loved and hated snare sound. Both sound kind of plastic but I&W makes it compromise with the mix, whereas DT doesn't.
After Portnoy left though, it took till DOT for them to arrive at a good mix with the new (sic) drummer. Though the mix qualities of the live albums vary and were generally better in that sense than their album counterparts.
-
Gotta go with DT12. Image and Words has 1992 as an excuse. DT12 has no excuse.
I actually like the drum sound in ACoS. Snare is mixed a little high but it sounds like a real kit. I actually wish DT went for a bit more raw/live sound in the studio, but Petrucci seems to like things super squeaky clean.
As far as something “dated” being good/bad, I agree something dated shouldn’t necessarily take away your enjoyment from them. But the fact is, some things age well, and some things don’t. I’m sure in 1992, the Prater snare sounded rad and cutting edge- today, it just sorta sounds like 1992. For some people that is part of the package and even enhances the experience with nostalgia. For others, it’s distracting. Timelessness is often a good mark of quality; a Rolex Daytona, a Rembrandt, Michelangelo’s David, AC/DC’s Back in Black :angel: - these things transcend the time in which they were created. Prater’s snare is more like my Don Johnson pastel suit; enjoyable on a certain level but hasn’t exactly stood the test of time.
-
Gotta go with DT12. Image and Words has 1992 as an excuse. DT12 has no excuse.
This sums it up to me.
I don't really hate either one (I'm a guitar person, so JP's sound is where my ears always go first), but I just listened to "Enigma Machine" (my fav from DT12) vs "PMU" and "Under A Glass Moon", and the snare on DT12 sounds just as triggered/gated/over-compressed/fake as the one on I&W. I would argue the snare on I&W seems to blend with the songs better though vs the DT12 one, which just sounds like a dull thud.
-
who is responsible for the production of the drums on DT12...JP?