Am I going to Hell?

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

some other Hell?

Citizen's Bank Park

[LCArenas]

I've always believed there are atheists in heaven. I think all the people worship God in one way or another, even atheists. Why? By doing good actions. If you make the people that are around you happy, you're already pleasing God, even if you don't believe in him, because God only counts good actions. Accepting God as your Saviour is IMO a metaphor to say Accepting a good-willing lifestyle in order to make yourself and the people around you live in harmony. I mean, if an atheist goes to heaven it'd be like "So yeah, you were an incredible human being, you can enter. And BTW God exists. He's over there *waves hands*". As childish as it may sound I think that's the way heaven is. However I can't fully comprehend the concept of Eternal Joy in Heaven.

[CountVoorhees]

I've always believed there are atheists in heaven. I think all the people worship God in one way or another, even atheists. Why? By doing good actions. If you make the people that are around you happy, you're already pleasing God, even if you don't believe in him, because God only counts good actions. Accepting God as your Saviour is IMO a metaphor to say Accepting a good-willing lifestyle in order to make yourself and the people around you live in harmony. I mean, if an atheist goes to heaven it'd be like "So yeah, you were an incredible human being, you can enter. And BTW God exists. He's over there *waves hands*". As childish as it may sound I think that's the way heaven is. However I can't fully comprehend the concept of Eternal Joy in Heaven.

That'd be nice.

But normally my answer to the original question would be "yes, I'll see you there", if hell does exist.

[bosk1]

Before answering the question directly, a few notes on hell in general.  The context of what few Biblical descriptions there are seem to be symbolic rather than literal descriptions, best I can tell.  I personally don't believe there is a literal description, so I don't believe we can truly know what it is like.  But the universal theme is that it is a place of eternal torment for all who have sinned (including Satan; the image of Satan being in control in hell is not Biblical at all; he is to be punished there as well).  There is no joy or happiness there whatsoever. 

The short version of who is going there and who isn't is this:  God set out the rules for mankind from the beginning.  Those who follow the rules perfectly are not subject to eternal punishment.  But the penalty for sinning is eternal punishment.  God being completely just must enforce this punishment.  It is not a punishment because mankind is inherently evil, as was suggested in a post above, but because each of us has in fact sinned. 

The flip side of that is that while God is 100% just, he is also 100% merciful and offers the free gift of salvation from that punishment for any who accept that Jesus paid the price that anyone who sins must pay (prior to Jesus paying that price, part of the faith that people were asked to have is that God had already set in place the plan where sins would eventually be paid for; as the saying goes, once Jesus paid the price, it was not only for those who would believe in the future, but also for those who had believed in the past--but that's a subject for another thread if people want to dig deeper into this idea).  It is a free gift that is given for all, and all we must do is accept the gift.

Moving on to answer the question (again, this is the short version), as Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the father except through me."  (John 14:6)  In other words, Jesus is the only way to be saved from Hell.  As far as what we must do to accept that salvation, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."  (Mark 16:16) 

Again, that's the short version and is presented to be informative, not persuasive.  But, EJ, you can read that and draw your own conclusions.  My personal wish is that everyone I come into contact with choose to avoid Hell.  But I am under no delusion that everyone will.  We're all free to make our own choices in that regard, so that's fine.

[rumborak]

The concept of hell always struck me as a bit too "pagan". Definitely not very compatible with an omniscient and loving god.
I mean, the very fact that hell would exist essentially implies condonement by God of such a thing.

rumborak

[bosk1]

I mean, the very fact that hell would exist essentially implies condonement by God of such a thing.

rumborak

Yes, of course it does.  How else could he be just if there were not a means of carrying out justice for violating the rules?

[rumborak]

What I'm saying is, given that the devil and hell are so intimately tied, the condonement of hell is also an condonement of the devil's practices for tempting people. So, hell is a bit of God's "sting operation". And sting operations aren't something I would call "loving".
Why would a loving god set you up to potentially fail?

rumborak

[bosk1]

Oh, I see what you are saying.  No, I don't think there is any implied or condonement of the devil's practices in tempting people.  He is permitted to do what he does as any free moral agent is also permitted to do what he/she wants.  But there are also consequences that require punishment, and the devil is also subject to that same punishment as I mentioned above.  I'm not sure where the belief arose that the devil is somehow given the authority to run hell and mete out punishment, but that is not a biblically supported view whatsoever.  By the same token, humanity is not "set up to fail" in any sense other than the fact that we are selfish enough to indeed choose wrong instead of right.  But, again, the loving, merciful part of God also offers salvation from that consequence for any who will accept it.  So there is no sort of "moral failure" on God's part, which is what I am reading into your post although you did not use that exact terminology.

[Zook]

If the devil is currently in hell, how is he going around manipulating and tempting people to do bad? Or do you not believe that?

[bosk1]

The details of that are a bit vague in the Bible.  Some believe he is there, but still has the ability to tempt people.  Some believe he is not yet there and will not be cast into hell until the final judgment.  I think there is room for either interpretation, but that the latter seems to be much better supported, in my opinion.  All I can say for certain is that he does have the ability.

[rumborak]

How can you say that "for certain"? I think you're a bit indiscriminate about the term "absolute certainty" when it comes to religious matters, bosk.

rumborak

[bosk1]

Oh, come on.  This isn't a thread about the certainty of faith.  This thread is directed at those with a religious belief regarding hell, which assumes a certain faith.  As you are already aware, part of my faith assumes the accuracy of Bibilcal scripture.  That is assumed in the discussion.  With that assumption in place, scripture is quite clear that Satan does indeed have the ability to tempt us.  But as far as the details of how that works, which is Zook's question, the Bible is not clear so I cannot give the "how" without a bit of speculation on my part.

[rumborak]

I think what just irks me when reading your posts is that you use your own perceived scriptural certainty as a discussion argument, as in "well, this we know as a fact". I don't think the nature and capabilities of the devil are anywhere near certain as you claim it to be.

rumborak

[CountVoorhees]

I hope the good guy wins this one. The good guy in my opinion.

[bosk1]

@rumby:  I'm not exactly clear about what you are objecting to.

1.  If you are objecting to me knowing anything "for certain" simply because you do not believe anything claimed by faith can be certain, I understand that, but that is a subject we have discussed at length, and that is off topic for this thread.  We can continue to have that discussion, but let's not clog up this thread with that issue because, again, it is assumed in the OP that those of any religious faith are answering from a belief that their religious system is true.

2.  If you are objecting that scripture is not clear as to whether the devil can tempt us, the Bible is crystal clear that he can.

3.  If you are objecting that scriputure is not clear as to the "how," I agree, and I acknowledged such in my post.

Can you clarify for me which one you are getting at?

[rumborak]

My point is number 2. Sure, the Bible says the Devil can tempt us, but to what extent and where, that is completely vague. In fact, it's so much anyone's guess that the gamut runs from epilepsy to earthquakes of what has been ascribed to the Devil. It goes as far as that it's essentially a knee-jerk reaction of ultra-Christians to assign the Devil's work to anything that pisses them off.
So, I take issue with the notion in your post that the capabilities of the devil are crystal-clear and figured out.

rumborak

[bosk1]

Oh, I see.  I guess I view that as kind of point # 2.5.  Actually, my answer to that would be more akin to what I said in point #3.  I agree with you on at least two counts:  (1) scripture is not entirely clear as to exactly to what extent and where; and (2) yes, people sometimes ascribe everything under the sun to the devil and, yes, they really shouldn't do that because, as you said, it is anybody's guess whether that is the devil's work or something else.  I really wasn't trying to imply anything more than the fact that the Bible is clear that the devil does in fact tempt us.  The how, why, where, to what extent, etc., isn't really gone into very much, other than the fact that he tempts us to sin.  There are some specific instances we can see if his work in scripture, but other than those examples, we don't really know much.  I agree with you that people who say otherwise go too far.  I try not to do that myself, but I'm sure I still do at times.

[Seventh Son]

Before answering the question directly, a few notes on hell in general.  The context of what few Biblical descriptions there are seem to be symbolic rather than literal descriptions, best I can tell.  I personally don't believe there is a literal description, so I don't believe we can truly know what it is like.  But the universal theme is that it is a place of eternal torment for all who have sinned (including Satan; the image of Satan being in control in hell is not Biblical at all; he is to be punished there as well).  There is no joy or happiness there whatsoever. 

The short version of who is going there and who isn't is this:  God set out the rules for mankind from the beginning.  Those who follow the rules perfectly are not subject to eternal punishment.  But the penalty for sinning is eternal punishment.  God being completely just must enforce this punishment.  It is not a punishment because mankind is inherently evil, as was suggested in a post above, but because each of us has in fact sinned. 

The flip side of that is that while God is 100% just, he is also 100% merciful and offers the free gift of salvation from that punishment for any who accept that Jesus paid the price that anyone who sins must pay (prior to Jesus paying that price, part of the faith that people were asked to have is that God had already set in place the plan where sins would eventually be paid for; as the saying goes, once Jesus paid the price, it was not only for those who would believe in the future, but also for those who had believed in the past--but that's a subject for another thread if people want to dig deeper into this idea).  It is a free gift that is given for all, and all we must do is accept the gift.

Moving on to answer the question (again, this is the short version), as Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the father except through me."  (John 14:6)  In other words, Jesus is the only way to be saved from Hell.  As far as what we must do to accept that salvation, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."  (Mark 16:16) 

Again, that's the short version and is presented to be informative, not persuasive.  But, EJ, you can read that and draw your own conclusions.  My personal wish is that everyone I come into contact with choose to avoid Hell.  But I am under no delusion that everyone will.  We're all free to make our own choices in that regard, so that's fine.

My problem with all of that is that humanity is automatically evil, something I vehemently object. I've always liked to believe that humanity is not 100% evil, rather a mix of good and evil. After all, as far as I'm concerned, the world is made up of opposing forces. Good and evil, happy and sad, love and hatred, etc. Its simply impossible to be completely good, we're humans. Its in our nature to fuck up now and then. Add to that, I personally think that good and evil need each other to exist. I don't really think its possible to completely eliminate evil no matter what, because I think every living entity carries evil in its heart, and if there does exist a God, then he has some bit of evil in his heart as well. That being said, I think the opposite also applies. I think there is good in everyone's heart to some extent, including both God and Satan, should either one exist. Its just not possible for someone to be perfectly on one side or the other to me. Now, some use good or evil a bit more than the other, which is quite obvious in what we see out in the world, but at the same time I think both presences are there in every human being, and spiritual entity that may exist.

And I suppose that's the primary reason why I reject Christianity, is the whole "Its either Heaven or Hell, no choices". As far as I'm concerned, it is not possible to be completely on one side, since both exist in the human heart. You'd have to completely eliminate one or the other, but doing so removes one's humanity in my opinion. And to me, I would never want to lose that, not in a million billion years. Its a very precious thing to me. To lose one's humanity is the equivalent of losing one's own soul as far as I'm concerned. Nobody is perfect, but I don't think I'd want to be perfect. Perfection would be tantamount to boredom and that would be no fun.

That's what I truly believe. That is my own spirituality. I am not a Christian and I never have ever considered myself one at all, but I do feel like this is what I actually believe, deep down. I look at Christianity, and I just can't accept it. So I'll just go with what my heart and soul tells me is real, and it tells me Christianity isn't real. I mean no offense to the Christians on this forum, none at all. I'm sure you believe it with everything you have, just as I believe what I believe. But I guess... I'm just tired of being vindicated for choosing the unpopular choice (I mean in real life, the Christians of this forum are anything but hostile ). Hell, I could just feign being a Christian and I'd be liked a lot more where I live, but that would just be lying to everyone I know, and I know that isn't right. So if my punishment for choosing my own path is an eternity in Hell, then I'll accept that because if there is a God that wishes to punish me for choosing what I feel is real, then I have no desire to be with that god at all.

[rumborak]

I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.

rumborak

[Quadrochosis]

I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.

rumborak

This. Morality is no exception to the subjectiveness of basically everything.

[Adami]

I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.

rumborak

Yes, but when you believe that good and evil is defined by the one true god, it is no longer subjective, despite who disagrees.


Also, @ 7th son. It's not that christians think we go to hell because we're 100% evil, but because we're not 100% good. Even .01% evil is enough to keep us out of heaven with out god or jesus' help.

[Seventh Son]

I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.

rumborak

Yes, but when you believe that good and evil is defined by the one true god, it is no longer subjective, despite who disagrees.


Also, @ 7th son. It's not that christians think we go to hell because we're 100% evil, but because we're not 100% good. Even .01% evil is enough to keep us out of heaven with out god or jesus' help.

I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.

[Quadrochosis]

I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.

rumborak

Yes, but when you believe that good and evil is defined by the one true god, it is no longer subjective, despite who disagrees.


Also, @ 7th son. It's not that christians think we go to hell because we're 100% evil, but because we're not 100% good. Even .01% evil is enough to keep us out of heaven with out god or jesus' help.

I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.

Plus, Earth has Porcupine Tree.

[Adami]

I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.

1. It's not a theme park bud. It's being in the presence of god, which supplies the ultimate bliss.
2. It's an impossible feat for humans, that's why jesus died, to redeem them. Thus, people who believe that are giving themselves into salvation that allows them into heaven.

[Seventh Son]

I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.

1. It's not a theme park bud. It's being in the presence of god, which supplies the ultimate bliss.
2. It's an impossible feat for humans, that's why jesus died, to redeem them. Thus, people who believe that are giving themselves into salvation that allows them into heaven.

1. I question the notion that god is the ultimate source of bliss. If he is the creator of all, then he creates good as well as evil. It goes both ways as far as I'm concerned.
2. I'm not sure I want into Heaven if its as described.

[Adami]

Then heaven and hell do not apply to you and there is no reason to participate.

[soundgarden]

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."  (Mark 16:16) 

So, Hitler has a better chance of getting into heaven than me, a benevolent atheist.   Correct?

Also, Bosk, you believe that Christ cares more for the rituals of Christianity (baptism, mass, communion, etc...) than the actual acts of the people?

[rumborak]

1. It's not a theme park bud. It's being in the presence of god, which supplies the ultimate bliss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mbBbFH9fAg&feature=avmsc2

Like this?

rumborak

[bosk1]

So, Hitler has a better chance of getting into heaven than me, a benevolent atheist.   Correct?

 I'm not sure how you could get that from anything I said.

Also, Bosk, you believe that Christ cares more for the rituals of Christianity (baptism, mass, communion, etc...) than the actual acts of the people?

1.  Mass and communion have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.  2.  But to answer the more general point of your question, yes and no.  God requires obedience.  His justice will not allow him to grant leniency to the willfully disobedient.  The problem with humanity is that we at times will choose disobedience.  The "flipside" of God's justice, so to speak, i.e., God's grace, allows forgiveness.  To the extent a "ritual," as you put it, is something God commanded, it is indeed important.  Baptism, for example, is a necessary act that puts us into a relationship with God whereby we can be forgiven.  But I think possibly what you are referring to as "the actual acts of the people" is basically whether we act like "good humans," so to speak, correct?  And that is also important.  I can't say which is more important because my reading of scripture leads me to believe they are equally important and that we should not neglect one over the other.  As one passage puts it, "and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"  (Micah 6:8)  And there are tons of passages about basically just being good people to one another.  I guess the reason that does not get emphasized in these sorts of discussions is that it is already assumed that that is something we should do, so why bother debating it?  Again, I would say both are of equal importance.  Where does that fit in terms of looking at someone and telling whether they are "in or out," so to speak?  I don't think we are supposed to make that judgment.  I think it is a Christian's job to point others to what we are supposed to do, not to try to look at someone's life and make the judgment ourselves about whether or not they are okay.  Anyhow, there were a couple of tangents, but hopefully that answered your question.

[soundgarden]

So, Hitler has a better chance of getting into heaven than me, a benevolent atheist.   Correct?

 I'm not sure how you could get that from anything I said.

You have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior and have gone through the rituals, no?  Sorry if i misread....

[XJDenton]

If you are condemned to and consequently spend an eternity in hell, then there exists no time where you could have committed the sin that got you there in the first place.

In any case, just like we base our human idea of god on our own poltical leaders and systems (the king of kings) we based our concepts of heaven and hell on our known systems of reward and punishment. To assume that an omnipotent entity such as god even has a need of a crude concept such as a punishment or justice is unfounded IMO.

[soundgarden]

If you are condemned to and consequently spend an eternity in hell, then there exists no time where you could have committed the sin that got you there in the first place.

Laws of universe don't apply outside of the universe, me thinks.

[SnakeEyes]

My point is number 2. Sure, the Bible says the Devil can tempt us, but to what extent and where, that is completely vague. In fact, it's so much anyone's guess that the gamut runs from epilepsy to earthquakes of what has been ascribed to the Devil. It goes as far as that it's essentially a knee-jerk reaction of ultra-Christians to assign the Devil's work to anything that pisses them off.
So, I take issue with the notion in your post that the capabilities of the devil are crystal-clear and figured out.

They are crystal clear.  Look at this:

Ephesians 6:10-18:

(10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. (11) Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: while using your loins of defeating the devil (18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and hi watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints



What isn't perfectly clear about the bolded part?  Oh, and I have to disagree with you, bosk, about there being a literal description of Hell.  When Jesus talks about the rich man and the poor man in Luke, Hell is described pretty clearly.  

[sneakyblueberry]

Oh, and I have to disagree with you, bosk, about there being a literal description of Hell.  When Jesus talks about the rich man and the poor man in Luke, Hell is described pretty clearly.  

Not really.  I think Jesus could easily be referring to 'Gehenna', if it is as Yesh described it.

[bosk1]

Oh, and I have to disagree with you, bosk, about there being a literal description of Hell.  When Jesus talks about the rich man and the poor man in Luke, Hell is described pretty clearly. 

We'll just have to disagree then.  I'm just not sure is all, so I can't be dogmatic about whether or not that is a literal description.  The story itself appears to be a parable more than a description of a literal event, or at least that is how it reads to me.  And the point isn't about whether or not that is a literal description of hell.  The point is that it is what we do here in this life that matters, with perhaps the subpoint being that whatever hell literally is, it's bad and you don't want to go there.