MP's Shattered Fortress Tour

[TAC]

Raw Dog is awesome, and I never understood the hate it got.

[cramx3]

So..

What other Dream Theater songs would you guys wanna see this band play? It'd be cool to see this line up playing some of the heavier stuff off of SC and BCSL.

What about Raw Dog? I'm serious.

I could get behind that.

Me too, I think I'm one of the very few who enjoys that song for what it is, but also it would be kind of fitting as his last DT song.

[JayOctavarium]

I was thinking like ANtR and like ITPOE

[Madman Shepherd]

Raw Dog is awesome, and I never understood the hate it got.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's awesome but there is certainly nothing wrong with that song and a lot that's right with it.

[Adami]

I was thinking like ANtR and like ITPOE

I think one issue is the length. He has limited time, and would have to cut out almost the rest of the non 12SS in order to play those two songs.

It'd be awesome though. Take the songs DT doesn't do much and do them, or do them better. That's why I love that he's playing Finally Free. His drummer makes that ending awesome, and without it, as we've seen with current DT, it's not too interesting to me.

[bill1971]

I checked out videos of this tour on Youtube and found the performances to be pretty good: high energy, faithful reproductions of the original songs.

However, they are just nothing special according to my taste. I mean, I like hearing the songs but as long as the real Dream Theater co-exists with 2/3 founding members, and JLB (who is central to the DT sound for me) - I just have no real interest in MP's band.

I mean, to check it out as a neat youtube video is fine enough, but I'm nowhere near interested enough to actually pay money to go watch it.

And again - my personal opinion only - I find all the claims that "this is the magic that real DT lacks, etc. etc." to be utterly laughable, and what's more important: unnecessarily tendentious.

For me the analogy is: I have attended Paul McCartney's solo concerts and enjoyed myself, but never once felt like saying "This is the real Beatles; Paul has the real magic; etc. etc."

[ToT-147]

Had Mike simply backed off all his self-imposed "duties" for a couple of record and touring cycles, and just been a drummer, he probably would have given himself time to do some of those other projects and not leave DT. But instead, his ego got the best of him, and boom, he's out of the band. Mistakes happen. He knows it. The band knows it.

Portnoy isn't a bad guy. Neither are the DT guys. Shit happens, you move on. Portnoy hasn't been able to move on as well as the other guys have. And that was expected (at least by me). But if Shattered Fortress and his new band ends up letting Mike rebuild his prog metal career and provide stability, and compete (the new band) at times with DT, I think Mike will be better for it.

I've just now read this and your other post (the one it's linked in your sig) and, like also some others have stated, I too agree with all you're saying -in general-, but I don't however agree -with the particular statement- that this was a mistake.. I mean, that's relative for starters.. From DT's point of view doesn't look like they feel it was a mistake, at least not now that they've done all that they've done in these past almost seven years now (wow, time goes by!).. From the fans' point of view, sure lot of them think it was a shitty thing to happen, but there are plenty that think it was actually good and better for all of them, and a good amount that just don't care to name it, and think that if happened, happened for a reason, and it's fine; this happens to be my posture.. Finally, from MP's point of view, yes, it looks like he feels it was a mistake, but even in his case we can't know for sure what his thoughts really are, and, more important, what would've happened if he would've stayed in DT... Because, why taking for granted that he/the rest of the guys/we the fans would be happier?.. I think we shouldn't speculate about what would've happened (at least if we're trying to approximate to a logical conclusion about this whole issue), but only talk about what actually happened, and that is, MP's not in DT, so we can't compare the two situations, simply because one of them is non-existing..

I was thinking like ANtR and like ITPOE

I think one issue is the length. He has limited time, and would have to cut out almost the rest of the non 12SS in order to play those two songs.

And another other issue is that MP said they won't play songs he didn't write the lyrics for, so that'd rule out those two... but yeah, if they would, those would be great.. However, if we're talking about epics, I'd rather see them play In the Name of God or Octavarium..

[Samsara]

I'd personally love for MP to play some stuff from FII that he's proud of to celebrate its 20th anniversary.

I've just now read this and your other post (the one it's linked in your sig) and, like also some others have stated, I too agree with all you're saying -in general-, but I don't however agree -with the particular statement- that this was a mistake.. I mean, that's relative for starters.. From DT's point of view doesn't look like they feel it was a mistake, at least not now that they've done all that they've done in these past almost seven years now (wow, time goes by!).. From the fans' point of view, sure lot of them think it was a shitty thing to happen, but there are plenty that think it was actually good and better for all of them, and a good amount that just don't care to name it, and think that if happened, happened for a reason, and it's fine; this happens to be my posture.. Finally, from MP's point of view, yes, it looks like he feels it was a mistake, but even in his case we can't know for sure what his thoughts really are, and, more important, what would've happened if he would've stayed in DT... Because, why taking for granted that he/the rest of the guys/we the fans would be happier?.. I think we shouldn't speculate about what would've happened (at least if we're trying to approximate to a logical conclusion about this whole issue), but only talk about what actually happened, and that is, MP's not in DT, so we can't compare the two situations, simply because one of them is non-existing..

Let me clarify -- I didn't mean to say it was a mistake for Dream Theater. I was speaking that looking at it from Mike's perspective, it was a mistake. In regard to the speculation though -- to be honest, that's really what these forums are for. As long as people understand it is just that...speculation. Nothing more.

[mikeyd23]

How so? MP stopped letting people talk about DT on his forum. I was saying that I hoped we could continue to talk about MP on a DT forum. Not a perfect parallel but definitely related ideas. 

It's not even close. MP was basically censoring his forum, which I thought was weak. This isn't a DT forum, but a DT fan forum, so it wouldn't make any sense to censor MP talk, which is not what I was suggesting in any way. I just find that a lot of good intended discussion ends up going around and around into a circle of rehashed nonsense, that's all.

I feel you.

MP started a band that is touring specifically with the goal of playing DT songs. We are discussing that. Along with that are the things MP does and says publicly revolving around this project and DT in general.  I mean, it's a discussion forum...

All true. All good. Seems like rehashing the drama is..I don't know...tired, I guess.


Mike, feel free to respond, but I'm going to drop it. I've derailed the thread enough.

We are rehashing drama no doubt, but I think the reason it's getting rehashed (to some degree) is the Shattered Fortress and MP's comments around it. Obviously a lot of other stuff got brought up, but it seems like a lot of the rehashing was based around this project and new-ish comments from Mike.


PS - They totally should play Raw Dog, that would be awesome just because it would be so random. I'd love that.

[ToT-147]

I'd personally love for MP to play some stuff from FII that he's proud of to celebrate its 20th anniversary.

I've just now read this and your other post (the one it's linked in your sig) and, like also some others have stated, I too agree with all you're saying -in general-, but I don't however agree -with the particular statement- that this was a mistake.. I mean, that's relative for starters.. From DT's point of view doesn't look like they feel it was a mistake, at least not now that they've done all that they've done in these past almost seven years now (wow, time goes by!).. From the fans' point of view, sure lot of them think it was a shitty thing to happen, but there are plenty that think it was actually good and better for all of them, and a good amount that just don't care to name it, and think that if happened, happened for a reason, and it's fine; this happens to be my posture.. Finally, from MP's point of view, yes, it looks like he feels it was a mistake, but even in his case we can't know for sure what his thoughts really are, and, more important, what would've happened if he would've stayed in DT... Because, why taking for granted that he/the rest of the guys/we the fans would be happier?.. I think we shouldn't speculate about what would've happened (at least if we're trying to approximate to a logical conclusion about this whole issue), but only talk about what actually happened, and that is, MP's not in DT, so we can't compare the two situations, simply because one of them is non-existing..

Let me clarify -- I didn't mean to say it was a mistake for Dream Theater. I was speaking that looking at it from Mike's perspective, it was a mistake. In regard to the speculation though -- to be honest, that's really what these forums are for. As long as people understand it is just that...speculation. Nothing more.

Ok, now we're on the same page... although literally we are..


About the FII songs, MP said in an interview that he would reserved those songs for when he tour with Derek..

[JayOctavarium]

I'd personally love for MP to play some stuff from FII that he's proud of to celebrate its 20th anniversary.

I've just now read this and your other post (the one it's linked in your sig) and, like also some others have stated, I too agree with all you're saying -in general-, but I don't however agree -with the particular statement- that this was a mistake.. I mean, that's relative for starters.. From DT's point of view doesn't look like they feel it was a mistake, at least not now that they've done all that they've done in these past almost seven years now (wow, time goes by!).. From the fans' point of view, sure lot of them think it was a shitty thing to happen, but there are plenty that think it was actually good and better for all of them, and a good amount that just don't care to name it, and think that if happened, happened for a reason, and it's fine; this happens to be my posture.. Finally, from MP's point of view, yes, it looks like he feels it was a mistake, but even in his case we can't know for sure what his thoughts really are, and, more important, what would've happened if he would've stayed in DT... Because, why taking for granted that he/the rest of the guys/we the fans would be happier?.. I think we shouldn't speculate about what would've happened (at least if we're trying to approximate to a logical conclusion about this whole issue), but only talk about what actually happened, and that is, MP's not in DT, so we can't compare the two situations, simply because one of them is non-existing..

Let me clarify -- I didn't mean to say it was a mistake for Dream Theater. I was speaking that looking at it from Mike's perspective, it was a mistake. In regard to the speculation though -- to be honest, that's really what these forums are for. As long as people understand it is just that...speculation. Nothing more.

Ok, now we're on the same page... although literally we are..


About the FII songs, MP said in an interview that he would reserved those songs for when he tour with Derek..

I thought he said he wasn't playing any more DT tunes after this?

[ToT-147]

About the FII songs, MP said in an interview that he would reserved those songs for when he tour with Derek..

I thought he said he wasn't playing any more DT tunes after this?

https://youtu.be/EqJvGNegbag?t=640

He doesn't literally say that he's going to play DT songs with Derek, but is strongly implying it..

[mikeyd23]

I'd be surprised if he doesn't do at least one DT, FII song with Derek in their new group.

I think he just meant this was the last time he'd do a whole project or tour focused solely on DT music.

[Samsara]

I'd be surprised if he doesn't do at least one DT, FII song with Derek in their new group.

I think he just meant this was the last time he'd do a whole project or tour focused solely on DT music.

Yup, that's exactly how I took that statement from MP as well.

[bill1971]

I'd be surprised if he doesn't do at least one DT, FII song with Derek in their new group.

I think he just meant this was the last time he'd do a whole project or tour focused solely on DT music.

Yup, that's exactly how I took that statement from MP as well.

Yes me too. Plus to be honest that would be a better place to play ACOS because 2 or the 5 players will be there. I really hope the guitar player is Eric Gillette, he is an amazing player and vocalist.

[Madman Shepherd]

I'd be surprised if he doesn't do at least one DT, FII song with Derek in their new group.

I think he just meant this was the last time he'd do a whole project or tour focused solely on DT music.

Yup, that's exactly how I took that statement from MP as well.

Yes me too. Plus to be honest that would be a better place to play ACOS because 2 or the 5 players will be there. I really hope the guitar player is Eric Gillette, he is an amazing player and vocalist.

Guitar player, yes. Vocalist? Oh god no.

If the rumors are true which it seems like they are, Bumblefoot is a pretty amazing vocalist when he tries.

[PetFish]

Raw Dog is awesome, and I never understood the hate it got.

I love the machine-gun JP riff around 3:19.

People get mad at this song for reasons like:

1)  It shouldn't have been MP's last official track with DT
Nobody knew it would be so this is a lame reason.

2)  They just used old riffs from BC&SL
So what?  Musicians write loads of music that never even has the chance to get recorded, guys like Bon Jovi and Springsteen and Mclachlan write 25-40 songs per album cycle.  For me some of the best DT music came from the FII sessions when they did write so much music.

Anyway, I think it's a cool little song.

[Adami]

Raw Dog is awesome, and I never understood the hate it got.

I love the machine-gun JP riff around 3:19.

People get mad at this song for reasons like:

1)  It shouldn't have been MP's last official track with DT
Nobody knew it would be so this is a lame reason.

2)  They just used old riffs from BC&SL
So what?  Musicians write loads of music that never even has the chance to get recorded, guys like Bon Jovi and Springsteen and Mclachlan write 25-40 songs per album cycle.  For me some of the best DT music came from the FII sessions when they did write so much music.

Anyway, I think it's a cool little song.

What? I've heard both of those things, but never as a reason to dislike the song. I think people dislike it because they don't think it's very good.

[Mosh]

I don't hate it, but it's obvious b-side material. I don't care if it's the last track or what riffs it recycled, it's boring and not worth taking up 8 min of set time.

[Cool Chris]

I don't hate it, but it's obvious b-side material. I don't care if it's the last track or what riffs it recycled, it's boring and not worth taking up 8 min of set time.

I hadn't thought of either of those "reasons" not to like it, but would also argue it isn't worth taking up 8 minutes of my life time.

[SystematicThought]

I forgot that, I think it was MP, said that it was mainly left over riffs from the BC&SL sessions. I always wondered where those pieces may have fit or what they could have become on the album.

I also always thought that the riff starting at 1:22 sounded like it was written for a video game, like a boss battle or something.

[Mosh]

I think it's just insight into how DT comes up with songs (or at least the way it was when MP was in the band, seems like things are slightly different at least on The Astonishing). They jam out parts and piece them together into a song. I wouldn't be surprised if every album has another 20-30 minutes of unused riffs/musical ideas.

[ToT-147]

Yeah, people genuinely dislike it, but I always think it has to do more with how's structured.. I like it, but can't stand the intro/outro.. The same thing happens to me with Trial of Tears and The Great Debate; all of them starts/finish in that dense and repetitive climax, which I'm sure some like, but not me, and maybe this is the case for some here with RD..

The thing is, the fact that you already know there's this whole section right at the beginning that you don't like at all, end up kind of blocking you 1) to not listen to the song or 2) to listen to it but having to wait the disliked section or skipping it, which anyways cut the flow or continuity of it..

But yeah, compared to another similar DT instrumental like Enigma machine, I prefer Raw Dog.. Other than the intro/outro, I enjoy almost every riff of it, and specially the JP solo, one of his best of this kind of solo..

[bill1971]

The more I think about it the more I hope his new prog metal band plays alot of DT, at least from FII on back. I don't think Derek would have any more interest in playing Jordan's parts that MP would MM. That way there can be sort of two DT's especially in Gillette is the guitar player.

[Madman Shepherd]

The more I think about it the more I hope his new prog metal band plays alot of DT, at least from FII on back. I don't think Derek would have any more interest in playing Jordan's parts that MP would MM. That way there can be sort of two DT's especially in Gillette is the guitar player.

There was actually a hilarious quote from Mike Portnoy about the Shattered Fortress shows when people were speculating about who the players were.  In response to someone who thought it would be Derek, Mike said something like, "Let me put it this way.  Derek has as much interest in playing Jordan's keyboard parts as I have playing The Astonishing."

To my knowledge, no one here criticized him for that even though we supposedly jump on every little thing he says (like the time he cured cancer) but I thought it was hilarious. 

[Elite]

^ I can remember some people jumped onto that, but I actually thought that was a pretty witty and funny comment. And it makes perfect sense as well, nothing wrong with that one at all. But don't kid yourself, there was definitely some people bashing MP for that comment too.

[IDontNotDoThings]

The more I think about it the more I hope his new prog metal band plays alot of DT, at least from FII on back. I don't think Derek would have any more interest in playing Jordan's parts that MP would MM. That way there can be sort of two DT's especially in Gillette is the guitar player.

There was actually a hilarious quote from Mike Portnoy about the Shattered Fortress shows when people were speculating about who the players were.  In response to someone who thought it would be Derek, Mike said something like, "Let me put it this way.  Derek has as much interest in playing Jordan's keyboard parts as I have playing The Astonishing."

To my knowledge, no one here criticized him for that even though we supposedly jump on every little thing he says (like the time he cured cancer) but I thought it was hilarious.

Actually I'm pretty sure people did criticise him for that quote, though it was only for a short time.

Also what is a hyperbole

[?]

The more I think about it the more I hope his new prog metal band plays alot of DT, at least from FII on back. I don't think Derek would have any more interest in playing Jordan's parts that MP would MM. That way there can be sort of two DT's especially in Gillette is the guitar player.

There was actually a hilarious quote from Mike Portnoy about the Shattered Fortress shows when people were speculating about who the players were.  In response to someone who thought it would be Derek, Mike said something like, "Let me put it this way.  Derek has as much interest in playing Jordan's keyboard parts as I have playing The Astonishing."

To my knowledge, no one here criticized him for that even though we supposedly jump on every little thing he says (like the time he cured cancer) but I thought it was hilarious.

Actually I'm pretty sure people did criticise him for that quote, though it was only for a short time.

Also what is a hyperbole

Yeah, I admit I criticized him for it, because it sounded like a calculated shot to me. As an avid social media user MP is surely aware of the mixed response to TA, and singling out that album in particular seemed like an attempt to get the TA dislikers to go "see, MP would never have allowed this piece of crap to happen!!!11" and give him the "DT is nothing without you!" ego boost. Just saying "fair enough, I wouldn't want to learn Mangini's parts either" would've been more tactful IMO, although the comparison is still apples and oranges, because Derek was fired while MP left of his own volition.

On the other hand, I didn't take the "drummers who play paradiddles at 240 BPM are boring" comment as an insult towards MM, because there are hundreds of uber-technical drummers on Youtube and in the prog/extreme metal circles, and a lot of them were probably influenced by DT and Portnoy, but he doesn't feel he belongs to that category himself or can't relate to that style of playing. Goes to show everything can be interpreted in multiple ways.

[ErHaO]

Raw Dog is awesome, and I never understood the hate it got.

I agree, I always enjoyed Raw Dog.

[KevShmev]

Bertie, I'm so sorry to hear that. Cancer absolutely sucks.

I echo this sentiment.   

There's a lot to comment on here but lets just start with this:  Why don't YOU change the channel?  You apparently dislike DTF so much yet you keep coming back.  You throw around these bizarre accusations about how much we hate Portnoy so fucking much that he could cure cancer and we would complain. BTW, that's a pretty tasteless accusation as I'm sure many posters here have been affected by cancer in some way or another and would love to see cancer cured, even if it comes from that evil Portnoy who we just love to hate even though every poster here has said positive things about him at one point or another.  Some in this very thread.  So if we hate him so much and are so ready to pounce, why do the vast majority of posters here reserve their criticism for when he acts tactlessly?  Admittedly, he does so quite often so it may seem like a lot but hey, you could change the channel. 

Perhaps those critical of Portnoy should start acting as hysterical as some of his supporters. 

"Portnoy could film himself slaughtering puppies and you would still defend him!"  Sounds pretty absurd, eh?  I guess you can't handle that we call it like we see it.  When he acts in a weird way, well, we call it like we see it.  And no, I don't follow Mike just to bash him.  In fact, I don't follow him at all.  I follow Charlie and saw his bizarre comment. 

But as for your original point, believe it or not, I wouldn't necessarily require physical proof to believe you.  I've remained very open minded through this whole ordeal.  Laugh if you want, but why would I praise these Shattered Fortress performances if I hate everything that the cancer curing Portnoy has ever done? Seems like you just want to dangle a line.  "Look how much I know!"

Well, we know you know a lot of insider info. 

For what it's worth, I also appreciate your work with DT and no difference of opinion is going to jade my view of that or Mike's contributions for that matter.

Great post. 

First, as far as you go Stadler, you are clearly not being rational.  I didn't refer to some cancer survivor.  I merely said everyone here has been touched by cancer in some way (knowing someone personally or having it themselves), and Bob's little analogy was just ridiculous.  You didn't touch the fact that all of us here have praised Mike at some point or another and then slam us and claim you and Bob are more open minded because you passively said his social media actions are sometimes not preferable.  Give me a break. 

I don't think there is another poster on this board that manipulates words as much as you do.  I mostly just ignored your wordy diatribes and bizarre irrational arguments but I for whatever reason decided to reengage.  You decided you would down with the ship at any costs and you find yourself on the ocean floor.  I think it's back to turning the channel on you.

Agreed.

I hope they don't end this thread, it was bad enough when the MP forum banned all mention of DT after Mike left. Perhaps another thread so people that are interested in The Shattered Fortress tour don't have to sift though all the other stuff. Call it the WTF was Mike thinking?? Thread

For the record, neither do I. The Shattered Fortress and its developments should be discussed here. I just find the whole psycho analyzing of MP, and his intentions, to be unproductive, in a sense that this has all been said.
And then someone like Bob, who can actually add something to the thread, gets called out.. I guess I can "change the channel"..

Junior mod alert!!!!!! 

For the record, I think Bob is a good example of someone who is, by everything I have seen, a great dude (heck, he once hooked me up with a free live DVD years ago, which makes him aces in my book) but one who seems like a different person when it comes to discussing Mike Portnoy. It's weird how one musician can make his most hardcore fans go off the reservation defending him (a phenomenon which is definitely not exclusive to Bob).

About the FII songs, MP said in an interview that he would reserved those songs for when he tour with Derek..

Portnoy is online enough to know that Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breathe are not popular DT songs in general. Heck, they are two of the least popular songs from FII.  It is hard to imagine his new band playing two of the least popular DT songs as the only DT selections.

Now, imagine if they played Raise the Knife.... That would give fans a collective boner. 

[TAC]

For the record, I think Bob is a good example of someone who is, by everything I have seen, a great dude (heck, he once hooked me up with a free live DVD years ago, which makes him aces in my book) but one who seems like a different person when it comes to discussing Mike Portnoy. It's weird how one musician can make his most hardcore fans go off the reservation defending him (a phenomenon which is definitely not exclusive to Bob).

But when there's a bunch of Internet Dudes constantly busting MP's balls, it's tiring to read. I'm sure someone like Bob, who actually knows MP, must be like..WTF?

Me, it's not so much defending MP, but why the hell is everyone else attacking him? Everything is so fucking negative.

Sure, we get the "the show was awesome" comment, but it's sprinkled in with the "MP shouldn't do this", or MP regrets that"...etc..
I guess it's a discussion forum and all. I get it.

[Zook]

I can recognize when me friend is out of line. Why can't bob?

[TAC]

I think it's unrealistic to think that Bob is going to pile on MP on DTF.

It's easy for us to do. We never have to back up our words.

[KevShmev]

I doubt anyone expects Bob, or anyone else close to/friendly with him like Scotty or Stadler (), to pile on.

[Zook]

I'm not saying bob should pile on, but instead of saying shit like, "Mike could cure cancer and people would still complain", he could recognize that some of the things Mike is saying might be a tad shitty.