Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 256795 times)

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Online Stadler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1435 on: December 10, 2019, 11:10:16 AM »
I actually take a little issue with the "kids" thing.  Not in the targeting, but in the way he did it.  I think a lot of the criticisms of Lucas are overblown, but IF you're going to say he's tone-deaf with love stories, and tone-deaf with this, and tone-deaf with that, then you have to say he's tone-deaf with appealing to kids.  I was ten when I saw Star Wars - twice - and I was all in within about nine minutes of screen time (seeing the hot chick playing with the robot, and the tall black-suited guy, and I was sold; the Star Destroyers, light sabres and Jawas were just icing on the cake at that point).  There is no universe where "Jar-Jar" would have appealed to me as a kid.  None. 

Likewise, the sort of oblivious kid who rises to the surface against all odds (and his own ignorance) was equally unappealing.  At least Luke - in A New Hope - was a young kid, but he had dreams, skills, desires, and ambition.  HE made sense.

Maybe I was a weird kid, I don't know.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1436 on: December 10, 2019, 11:31:33 AM »
...The most unbelievable part was JJ, a bumbling oaf who had been banished, acting as a broker between the Naboo and the Gungans.  It was also distracting having all of the Gungans basically being Keystone Cops, with any advances they made on the battlefield being completely absurd consequences of JJ's clumsiness.

Yeah, I don't really disagree with any of that.  But I had a much easier time overlooking that than the stuff I mentioned.  JJ was, at best, a sidekick.  Anakin is the centerpiece of the entire saga and is much more important, so issues with him being unbelievable are much more glaring to me.  And the Padme thing fits right into that because, next to Obi Wan and Sidious, she is arguably the most important character in the PT, and because her relationship with Anakin goes right back to my first point about Anakin being the centerpiece.  But, yes, I basically agree with you.  I guess that would be my "3.b."  And like much of my criticisms, I can't escape feeling that, with only relatively minor tweaking, Jar-Jar could have been just fine.  Just dial back the "bumbling oafishness" enough to not have the consequences of his clumsiness/silliness be SO absurd, and I think you have an acceptable middle ground of getting the laughs from little kids while not being so distracting to make the adults roll their eyes.

This is balance that TFA and TLJ achieved very well, IMO.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1437 on: December 10, 2019, 11:52:56 AM »
I actually take a little issue with the "kids" thing.  Not in the targeting, but in the way he did it.  I think a lot of the criticisms of Lucas are overblown, but IF you're going to say he's tone-deaf with love stories, and tone-deaf with this, and tone-deaf with that, then you have to say he's tone-deaf with appealing to kids.  I was ten when I saw Star Wars - twice - and I was all in within about nine minutes of screen time (seeing the hot chick playing with the robot, and the tall black-suited guy, and I was sold; the Star Destroyers, light sabres and Jawas were just icing on the cake at that point).  There is no universe where "Jar-Jar" would have appealed to me as a kid.  None. 

Likewise, the sort of oblivious kid who rises to the surface against all odds (and his own ignorance) was equally unappealing.  At least Luke - in A New Hope - was a young kid, but he had dreams, skills, desires, and ambition.  HE made sense.

Maybe I was a weird kid, I don't know.

GL was tone-deaf with appealing to kids in the prequels as well.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1438 on: December 10, 2019, 01:42:53 PM »
Mandalorian, ep. 5...  I lol'd a bit at this:

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I took the droid running the cantina as an in-world joke at the expense of the various sides in the SJW debate. I’m not quite sure who got poked fun at, and it may have been all sides. A droid that would have once been completely excluded from that bar is now running the place, occupying the same physical space (and, in a bar, place of power) formerly occupied by the white, male, droidophobic Wuher.

It’s a dream come true for woke social justice droids like L3-37, and it’s the worst nightmare come true for their opponents. It’s Rey replacing Luke as our protagonist, Finn and Rose being given any screen time at all, girl Ghostbusters, a female Thor, a female Doctor, and a black James Bond, all rolled into one droid serving drinks.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1439 on: December 10, 2019, 01:48:20 PM »
Oh, and I have to add something to my Phantom Menace post that I meant to talk about, but forgot:  R2 and C3PO do NOT need to be in these films.  Neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan have any recollection of them by the time we get to the OT, so they absolutely should not have been shoehorned in here. 
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1440 on: December 10, 2019, 01:57:14 PM »
Oh, and I have to add something to my Phantom Menace post that I meant to talk about, but forgot:  R2 and C3PO do NOT need to be in these films.  Neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan have any recollection of them by the time we get to the OT, so they absolutely should not have been shoehorned in here.

Yup.

I was okay with R2 having a limited role, but 3PO was unnecessary.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1441 on: December 10, 2019, 02:06:54 PM »
Watched the prequels as an Actual Kid (not even pre-teen), and before the main movies, though I knew most of the plot. I honestly can't remember being annoyed many times by Jar-Jar. I was just used to antropomorphic talking characters that are mildly exaggerated in all of their annoying qualities. Having said that, I wouldn't request a toy of him either  :laugh:

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Offline pg1067

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1442 on: December 10, 2019, 03:27:22 PM »
Oh, and I have to add something to my Phantom Menace post that I meant to talk about, but forgot:  R2 and C3PO do NOT need to be in these films.  Neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan have any recollection of them by the time we get to the OT, so they absolutely should not have been shoehorned in here.

Ehhh...I don't disagree with the conclusion.  However, Obi-Wan's only comment about the droids was that he didn't remember ever owning a droid, and that's true.  He never owned either of them.  It's not like he was going to say, "Oh yeah!  I never owned those droids, but your dad (who, by the way, is now Darth Vader) built the protocol droid, and the astromech droid was all over the place when your dad and I were in our heyday."  He wasn't exactly being completely truthful with Luke, and he did have kind of a smirky look on his face when he said, "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid."  There were also numerous other astromech droids and protocol droids that looked exactly like C3PO.

As for Vader, he didn't see either one of the droids until they got to Cloud City in ESB, and I don't think a "Wait...could it be...C3PO?!  What's up, bruh?!  I built your ass (not that you'd remember, I suppose)!"

But again, I agree that they were unnecessary inclusions -- especially the whole Darth Vader built C3PO storyline.  Including them necessitates coming up with a bunch of explanations.

Also, watch this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoLZ6xzLjuY
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1443 on: December 10, 2019, 03:52:34 PM »
Yeah, I don't buy that.  It's pretty obvious that Lucas just changed his mind and retconned the droids into the prequel storyline.  And he's entitled to do that.  But it ends up being clunky and distracting. 
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1444 on: December 10, 2019, 04:21:55 PM »
Yeah, I don't buy that.  It's pretty obvious that Lucas just changed his mind and retconned the droids into the prequel storyline.  And he's entitled to do that.  But it ends up being clunky and distracting.

I agree about the retconning.  It's unnecessary, but it really never bothered me.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1445 on: December 10, 2019, 04:29:35 PM »
Tonight is Revenge of the Sith for me and I am so not excited. I know a lot of people legitimately consider this a good/great SW film but I remember it being sooooo bad.
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Offline YtseJam

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1446 on: December 10, 2019, 04:38:03 PM »
It is. The whole prequel series was brutal

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1447 on: December 10, 2019, 04:58:02 PM »
Tonight is Revenge of the Sith for me and I am so not excited. I know a lot of people legitimately consider this a good/great SW film but I remember it being sooooo bad.

It's my best friend's favorite Star Wars movie. He insists it is a good film, and I insist it is not. It leads to hilariously impassioned discussions.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1448 on: December 10, 2019, 04:59:09 PM »
Well, just stand on some higher ground and you automatically win the argument.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1449 on: December 10, 2019, 08:55:56 PM »
To be fair, it is the best of the PT.  The cream of the crap.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1450 on: December 10, 2019, 09:49:36 PM »
To be fair, it is the best of the PT.  The cream of the crap.

This is true, but that doesn't make it a good movie.   People call it a decent movie in a desperate attempt to legitimize the PT.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1451 on: December 11, 2019, 05:20:54 AM »
I don't know about that... I'm not sure I care one way or another about "legitimizing" anything, I just like what I like.   It started to get into the vibe and feel of IV and V, which I like.  In contrast, I'm indifferent about VI; not a fan of Ewoks.  Thought that was stupid and a too-obvious nod to getting a "feel good" moment. 

It shouldn't surprise anyone that I'm not a fan of those quippy, knowing, winking moments in films (generally, not just Star Wars), the catch-phrases, and what not.  I get it, it's what moves tickets, but as soon as I hear something like "Hasta la vista, baby!" or "I'll be bok" repeated ad nauseam, I'm out.   To me, the Ewoks were a nod in that direction. 

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1452 on: December 11, 2019, 07:11:37 AM »
Halfway through Attack of the Clones and I don't mind the story as much even though it really isn't anything great, I think the delivery of the dialogue is what I'm kinda put off by the most. The acting is distracting at times and the clunky dialogue doesn't help.

And of course the Padme-Anakin love story is hilariously bad and even worse than I remember.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1453 on: December 11, 2019, 07:18:16 AM »
Watched III last night. Good lord, what a dumpster fire.

So, I'm not going to go too much into the negatives because there are so many and I just don't want to give it that energy, but on the positive side, I will list the few things I liked about this movie.

1) The few scenes between Palpatine and Anakin before he goes "I AM SITH LORD MWAHAHAHA" on him. Ian's acting is just fantastic, somehow. Sadly, there's only like two of these scenes in this needlessly long movie.
2) Yoda being awesome when he 1) Back flip cuts off the head of the clone troopers, 2) Throws his lightsaber into another one, and 3) Casually waves his hand and knocks out the two armed guards for Palpatine.

That's....about it. The rest of this movie is terrible. And yes, the final fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan is awful. It's just SO over the top that the emotion they were trying to convey is lost. And the awful dialogue doesn't help much either.

"Love can't save you Padme...only my new powers can do that"...........ugh

Also, few random thoughts.

1) Grievous should really have been able to kill Obi-Wan in like 5 seconds. I'm sorry, if a few clones can take out a Jedi, then 4 freaking light sabers moving in constant motion (SHUT UP) should be too much for him.
2) Those Jedi should have been able to kill Palpatine as well. They mostly just casually stood there when he killed them.
3)....what happens to wounded clone soldiers? Like, if one loses a leg and is out of the fight. Is there a planet of out of commission clones? Do they get individual identities to live out lives? Are they just killed because who cares? Are they constantly sent back into battle until they die? What happens if they win? Peace in the universe, now what? You have millions of clones. Are they just slave soldiers?
4) What were the separatists fighting for at this point? Like, say they win. What do they get? I couldn't figure out their motives, it just felt like constant escalation with no goal.

Anyway, terrible movie. Rogue One in a few days, and I remember liking that one a lot more than most.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1454 on: December 11, 2019, 07:27:53 AM »
I never thought about point #3. That's a good one. I agree Grievous should've owned Obi-Wan. I still don't understand Grievous's coughing, also.

My favorite line out of every single Star Wars film is Palpatine's, "No... no, no, YOU will die!!" It's SO hammy.  :rollin
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1455 on: December 11, 2019, 10:37:11 AM »
To be fair, it is the best of the PT.  The cream of the crap.

This is true, but that doesn't make it a good movie.   People call it a decent movie in a desperate attempt to legitimize the PT.

Huh?!  Which people are you talking about?

I'd call it more than a "decent movie" (unfortunately, as the third movie in the trilogy, it sits on a shaky foundation), and I have no interest in "legitimizing" anything, much less desperately so.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1456 on: December 11, 2019, 11:42:57 AM »
So I'll be skipping this one too. Yikes. Tis all I'll say. Yikes.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1457 on: December 11, 2019, 11:45:54 AM »
So I'll be skipping this one too. Yikes. Tis all I'll say. Yikes.

Huh?
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Offline Zook

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1458 on: December 11, 2019, 11:52:21 AM »
So I'll be skipping this one too. Yikes. Tis all I'll say. Yikes.

Huh?

Spoilers are spilling online. Wasn't all that interested in seeing it anyway, but now I definitely won't. I still haven't watched more than 20 minutes of TLJ. I'm gonna have to rewatch TFA, cause I really enjoyed it in theaters.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1459 on: December 11, 2019, 11:55:50 AM »
So I'll be skipping this one too. Yikes. Tis all I'll say. Yikes.

Huh?

Spoilers are spilling online. Wasn't all that interested in seeing it anyway, but now I definitely won't. I still haven't watched more than 20 minutes of TLJ. I'm gonna have to rewatch TFA, cause I really enjoyed it in theaters.

Ohh gotcha. I'm mostly avoiding spoilers, but Star Wars has never been super important to me, so if I accidentally read some, I don't care much. This is mostly a cultural thing and it's the last in this series, so it's exciting from that perspective. Of course I couldn't get tickets til the Saturday, so I'll have to avoid most of the internet for a day or two, which is annoying.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1460 on: December 11, 2019, 08:19:34 PM »

Spoilers are spilling online. Wasn't all that interested in seeing it anyway, but now I definitely won't. I still haven't watched more than 20 minutes of TLJ. I'm gonna have to rewatch TFA, cause I really enjoyed it in theaters.

After Last Jedi, I lost all interest in SW and definitely any interest in IX, but boy those spoilers are fantastic  :lol

I read absolutely every single one and I can't wait for next week. The fallout on this one is gonna be a lot of fun.


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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1461 on: December 11, 2019, 10:07:10 PM »
I’ll be checking out of this thread now.......
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1462 on: December 12, 2019, 08:51:06 AM »
Ep. II – Attack of the Clones:  To me, if you read a plot summary of this film, it has really good bones and is a story worth telling.  It’s just in the execution that it fell flat.  From the way the romance is handled, to Anakin’s general broodiness, to the battle droid factory, it comes across as a big mess.  But it’s actually a good story at its core, and has some really good moments and great visuals (even if it relied too much on green screen and CGI as a whole).  Picking up the political intrigue thread, it’s kinda cool seeing how Sidious was so skilled at setting up a threat in the separatist movement that was big enough to convince the Senate to approve a clone army, but with sufficient internal weaknesses that he could later crush it once it had fulfilled its purpose.  The seeds of the empire are growing and preparing to bear fruit, and had some missteps not gotten in the way, seeing that unfold would be pretty chilling.

Three things that worked:
-1.  World-building.  Going off on a tangent for just a second here…  I have a hard time merging films and video games into a convincing canon.  But the Star Wars Dark Forces game in the late ‘90s was the first time I felt like a game had a compelling story, was immersive and made you feel like part of a familiar universe, and convincingly expanded that universe with interesting places that fit well and felt huge.  Lucas blatantly borrowed from that game twice in the PT, and it worked very well both times.  Seeing more of Coruscant, including some seedier parts, it felt big, and it felt right.  Kamino was also very different and cool.  Overall, the world-building in this episode mostly felt spot-on.
-2.  Seeds of the Empire:  See my brief synopsis above.  It’s a shame this major plot point got lost a bit, because it was a great concept, and it worked pretty well if you didn’t get distracted by the nonsense and take your eye off the ball.
-3.  Jedi light saber mania on Geonosis:  1,000 light sabers.  Or something like that.  Who cares that the fight itself ended up being lame?  Well, okay, admittedly, probably almost ALL of us care.  But still, this needed to happen somewhere in the PT, and I remember it bringing down the house in the theater.

Three things that didn’t:
-1.  The love interest between Anakin and Padme.  It was just off in so many ways.  But like so many things in the PT, I feel like the idea had good bones, and Lucas just had no idea how to write it to make it convincing.  I think it would have been so much better if he had just made them the same age, and let someone other than Lucas write the dialog.  The idea of two childhood friends who share a common bond, yet live in two separate worlds that force them to be something other than what they long to be together could be very compelling and relatable if done better.
-2.  The relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan:  Part of me thinks that Lucas had a difficult task in showing Anakin begin to wander down the dark path.  But part of me thinks the story was just sitting there on a gold platter and he just had no clue what to do with it.  The idea of Anakin struggling with not fitting into the Jedi Order’s ideals and being ridden harder than other padawans because of his unique circumstances, the prophecy, and his potential vulnerability to the dark side are good ideas.  But the way Obi-Wan rode him and publicly humiliated him on several occasions really show his utter failure as a mentor rather than highlighting Anakin’s vulnerability. 
-3.  The droid factory:  If it wasn’t clear before this, the droids, and especially C3PO, are now primarily relegated to cheap comic relief.  Bad move, George.  Nobody thought this was funny or cool.

Minor tweaks that could have made it better:  I mentioned in my previous installment that Padme and Anakin should have been closer in age.  That would have helped this episode.  But the primary problem was simply the dialog.  It was bad in so many places and ruined so many potentially great scenes.  Closing the age gap and just making the dialog between Padme and Anakin better would have made their relationship more believable and made it resonate more with us.  And that, in and of itself, would have made any other flaws so much easier to overlook and tolerate.  That, to me, is the easiest fix.  And maybe include just a tiny bit more about how important his mother is to him early on as well.  That way, when he finally goes back to find her, and she dies and he absolutely loses it on the sand people, we can actually feel something instead of just seeing something on screen that we are indifferent to.  And we can actually feel Padme simultaneously being horrified by the darkness within Anakin, while being drawn to him and wanting to comfort him.  So much potential there that could have gone somewhere rather than falling flat due to cringeworthy dialog and lack of emotional build-up.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1463 on: December 12, 2019, 11:00:55 AM »
I was reading your last paragraph, and was immediately struck by a memory of "Superman v. Batman", an equally vilified movie, but one I liked very much.

I have been reading Superman and Batman comics since I was in single digits.  Collected comics, have several anthologies of the older, more expensive books, watched the old Superman (50's) and Batman (60's) TV shows religiously, and followed their arcs in the movies.  Less so Superman, but played extensively the Batman games from the SuperNES and PS3 (the Arkham series).  My kid and I even joke that I'm "Batman".

I never once ever put together that both their mom's were named "Martha".  So that scene when Batman comes around to help Superman by saving "his Martha" - remember, Batman has been shown to be driven by the death of HIS "Martha" - it was really compelling and made the entire movie for me (not to mention that the fight scene when Batman goes to rescue Martha is the best superhero fight scene I've ever seen).  So calling her "mom" isn't enough; you DO need more, and in contrast to "SvB", I think Lucas came up short. 

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1464 on: December 12, 2019, 11:06:40 AM »
I agree about the story points, bosk, it's not a bad plot line per se, the execution and everything else around it is very subpar. The world building is also amazing which I think Rogue one did a great job in continuing that aspect.

Almost done with Revenge of the Sith. I do think the story comes together in this movie and some of the parts are great but others just there. The acting has suffered the most in the prequel trilogy I feel. The CGI is a lot better and makes the scenes a lot more believeable.

The final duel between Anakin and Obi-wan is a mixed bag for sure, I think it was far too drawn out and not really effective in conveying the emotion of the rift between them. I do have to say Hayden was a lot better in this movie compared to Clones.

I will probably watch Solo next and then Rogue One and then onto the OT.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1465 on: December 12, 2019, 11:33:19 AM »
The prequel trilogy, as a whole, is a misbegotten mess with no real purpose.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1466 on: December 12, 2019, 11:36:36 AM »
I and II are whack, but I've always really enjoyed III. Its a flawed gem for me. There's issues for sure, but every time I put it on, I have a good time.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1467 on: December 12, 2019, 01:05:13 PM »
I've always thought there was enough there to keep the prequels interesting, but they're certainly not good movies by any stretch.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1468 on: December 12, 2019, 08:35:04 PM »
Got done with Solo, I really enjoyed this on 2nd watch. It's a fun movie with really interesting characters and about the only thing annoying was the overdone aspect of the dice. Other than that its a fun movie that doesn't add much to the main storyline other than give some backstory.

On to Rogue One!
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1469 on: December 12, 2019, 08:47:16 PM »
I liked Solo.  It had a whole lot stuff that they pretty much had to include, and most of it was done pretty well, plus the movie had its own story.  It wasn't just backstory for the main episodes.  I thought the "twist" with L3-37 was done really well, and I actually got kinda choked up by it.  Glover as young Lando really nailed it.