Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[Podaar]

Great episode! I'm with all the praise and discussion so far.

The one unexpected part of this episode that I haven't seen mentioned is Sansa's willingness to sacrifice anything to get at Ramsey.

She clearly forecast Rickon's death as Ramsey's play toy, and even begged Jon not to be drawn in by it. She new that Little Finger and the Vale Knights would be available to win the war but refused to tell Jon about it in advance even though she had plenty of opportunity. I assume she didn't want to give anything away that might forewarn Ramsey. One word from her and she could have held Jon's attack until the Vale Knights arrived. Unless I'm misreading the episode, she was so determined to have it be a surprise to the Bolton army that in the end she was willing to sacrifice Rickon, Jon, and the whole army just to get Ramsey to overextend and fall victim to the Vale Knights.

I'll take her smile as verification.

[faizoff]

Yea advice to Chino, DONT use the internet until you're caught up on all episodes of this season ;-)

[gmillerdrake]

Great episode! I'm with all the praise and discussion so far.

The one unexpected part of this episode that I haven't seen mentioned is Sansa's willingness to sacrifice anything to get at Ramsey.

She clearly forecast Rickon's death as Ramsey's play toy, and even begged Jon not to be drawn in by it. She new that Little Finger and the Vale Knights would be available to win the war but refused to tell Jon about it in advance even though she had plenty of opportunity. I assume she didn't want to give anything away that might forewarn Ramsey. One word from her and she could have held Jon's attack until the Vale Knights arrived. Unless I'm misreading the episode, she was so determined to have it be a surprise to the Bolton army that in the end she was willing to sacrifice Rickon, Jon, and the whole army just to get Ramsey to overextend and fall victim to the Vale Knights.

I'll take her smile as verification.

That's how I see it as well. She's such a tactician now and her admitting to Jon that Rickon was expendable also meant that he was as well. She knew the Knights of the Vale could probably have defeated the Bolton Army on their own....but WANTED it to catch Ramsay off guard, and like you said....held tight to that fact. Although she did implore Jon to wait, so maybe she hoped he'd listen but knew if he didn't she'd still get the ultimate goal of defeating Ramsay and getting Winterfell back.

[Prog Snob]

She should have clued him in as to what was going on. If he knew there were thousands more riders coming, he would have waited. I don't think he would have needlessly drove his men into battle.

[Cyclopssss]

She knew Jon would´ve balked if she would have told him about her plan. Also interesting where the Davos line will go now. Will he go after Melisandre himself?

[Podaar]

She knew Jon would´ve balked if she would have told him about her plan.

Also, I don't think she wanted to risk that Ramsey would just hold out in Winterfell had he got wind of reinforcements on the way. She needed him out in the open and new that an inferior (seeming) force would do the trick. If she tells Jon, he would wait until they arrived.

[cramx3]

She knew Jon would´ve balked if she would have told him about her plan.

Also, I don't think she wanted to risk that Ramsey would just hold out in Winterfell had he got wind of reinforcements on the way. She needed him out in the open and new that an inferior (seeming) force would do the trick. If she tells Jon, he would wait until they arrived.

Remember, she watched from the tower in Winterfell what happened when Stannis brought his small army to Winterfell, it lead Ramsay right out to crush him.  She knew the same would happen for Jon.  In fact, she even know Rickon would be bait and warned Jon who fell right for it anyway.  That decision should have crushed him had the Vale/Sansa saved the day.

[Podaar]

Actually, now that I think of it, a better title for that episode would have been, The Ruthlessness of Women.

[RuRoRul]

I have to say I didn't see it as Sansa having a deliberate plan for the battle or hiding the knowledge of the Vale forces from Jon because she didn't think he could handle it or not give them away or anything like that. After what happened with the Boltons she know longer trusted Littlefinger, and I think no longer wanted to be dependent on him. That's why she said she didn't want his help, and she didn't tell Jon or anyone else about the offer since she didn't want that decision taken out of her hands. However, after they have gone to all the Northern houses they can and not got the support they need, and when it's clear that Brienne won't be coming back with the Tullys (or at least on time for the battle), she realises she has no choice but to go back to Littlefinger. As for why she didn't tell Jon about it between writing the letter to Littlefinger and the day of the battle, it could have been due to guilt about not revealing it sooner, it could have been because she didn't yet know whether Littlefinger was even going to show up... or it could have been part of a deliberate, elaborate strategy to let Jon lose all his forces but ensure that Ramsay's forces were caught unawares. Personally I think that third option is by far the least likely, and doesn't really fit with what she was trying to tell Jon Snow before the battle (don't attack Winterfell yet, wait for more numbers from "somewhere", don't let Ramsay provoke you into attacking first). Also it doesn't really fit with her motivation shown earlier in the season, which was clearly wanting to win and reclaim the North without being beholden to Littlefinger - deliberately intending for Jon Snow's forces to be decimated and Littlefinger's to remain mostly unscathed achieves the opposite, giving Littlefinger more power.

I think that Sansa didn't fully trust Jon Snow enough to inform him of everything, and I think she gave up on Rickon because she knew that it was a lost cause if Ramsay had him and that holding out hope would allow Ramsay to manipulate them (as he clearly did). But I don't buy that she was some cool calculating strategist who intended the battle to play out the way it did - she just knew that Ramsay was extremely dangerous (although she didn't really have any good ideas on how to outsmart him) and she knew that her secret trump card of Littlefinger may be coming to help, even though she really did not want to ask him for help.

[Podaar]

But I don't buy that she was some cool calculating strategist who intended the battle to play out the way it did - she just knew that Ramsay was extremely dangerous (although she didn't really have any good ideas on how to outsmart him) and she knew that her secret trump card of Littlefinger may be coming to help, even though she really did not want to ask him for help.

That's more likely, I suppose. But I don't like it as much as my interpretation.  Spoilsport!

[kaos2900]

So does anyone else think that Tyrions speech about the mad king and the wild fire was an obviouse tip of the hat of things to come. I'm more convinced now than ever that Jamie is going to kill Cersei to prevent her trying to destroy kings landing.

[Prog Snob]

So does anyone else think that Tyrions speech about the mad king and the wild fire was an obviouse tip of the hat of things to come. I'm more convinced now than ever that Jamie is going to kill Cersei to prevent her trying to destroy kings landing.

He won't get back there in time.

[MirrorMask]

So does anyone else think that Tyrions speech about the mad king and the wild fire was an obviouse tip of the hat of things to come. I'm more convinced now than ever that Jamie is going to kill Cersei to prevent her trying to destroy kings landing.

It's entirely possible. Not 100% sure, but if it does happen, I won't be totally surprised.

About Sansa... well, she had the cold blood and lucid realization about Rickon being dead meat, not many leaders in Westeros could be able to clearly recognize a lost cause, so it's possible that she didn't warn Jon of Littlefinger's help on purpouse. Not because she's good at war strategies, she told herself she isn't, but more along the lines of "I know he's a cunning bastard, so even if Jon doesn't behave based on LF's help, this may throw Ramsay off". She even told Jon "Don't do whatever he expects you to do, do something else"... not telling of an army that maybe wasn't even showing up was that "something else".

All of this of course it's far better than "Cliched surprise arrival that couldn't be told to Jon Snow" 

Speaking of surprises about Jon Snow... do you think either we, the viewers, or himself will learn about his parentage in the final episode? TV writers seem to have the assumption that show watchers have no memory so from this mindset it would be weird to show the Tower of Joy, introduce a young Ned Stark, and then have people forget about it until next year.

[Podaar]

He won't get back there in time.

I don't know, Prog, people travel really far really fast in this show. Theon went from Winterfell, to the Iron Islands, to Volantis and on to Mareen in seemingly a few weeks! 

Speaking of which, why didn't Theon tell Tyrion, "Hey Mang, I saved your wife last month!"

[ariich]

I have to say I didn't see it as Sansa having a deliberate plan for the battle or hiding the knowledge of the Vale forces from Jon because she didn't think he could handle it or not give them away or anything like that. After what happened with the Boltons she know longer trusted Littlefinger, and I think no longer wanted to be dependent on him. That's why she said she didn't want his help, and she didn't tell Jon or anyone else about the offer since she didn't want that decision taken out of her hands. However, after they have gone to all the Northern houses they can and not got the support they need, and when it's clear that Brienne won't be coming back with the Tullys (or at least on time for the battle), she realises she has no choice but to go back to Littlefinger. As for why she didn't tell Jon about it between writing the letter to Littlefinger and the day of the battle, it could have been due to guilt about not revealing it sooner, it could have been because she didn't yet know whether Littlefinger was even going to show up... or it could have been part of a deliberate, elaborate strategy to let Jon lose all his forces but ensure that Ramsay's forces were caught unawares. Personally I think that third option is by far the least likely, and doesn't really fit with what she was trying to tell Jon Snow before the battle (don't attack Winterfell yet, wait for more numbers from "somewhere", don't let Ramsay provoke you into attacking first). Also it doesn't really fit with her motivation shown earlier in the season, which was clearly wanting to win and reclaim the North without being beholden to Littlefinger - deliberately intending for Jon Snow's forces to be decimated and Littlefinger's to remain mostly unscathed achieves the opposite, giving Littlefinger more power.

I think that Sansa didn't fully trust Jon Snow enough to inform him of everything, and I think she gave up on Rickon because she knew that it was a lost cause if Ramsay had him and that holding out hope would allow Ramsay to manipulate them (as he clearly did). But I don't buy that she was some cool calculating strategist who intended the battle to play out the way it did - she just knew that Ramsay was extremely dangerous (although she didn't really have any good ideas on how to outsmart him) and she knew that her secret trump card of Littlefinger may be coming to help, even though she really did not want to ask him for help.

That's how I see it too. Sansa even pleaded with Jon to wait until they had more numbers, clearly hopeful that the Vale would come through. I think she figured that Rickon was a lost cause regardless.

[Prog Snob]

He won't get back there in time.

I don't know, Prog, people travel really far really fast in this show. Theon went from Winterfell, to the Iron Islands, to Volantis and on to Mareen in seemingly a few weeks! 

Yes, but we see Jaime with Walder Frey, if that's actually really Jaime. Some say it's Arya getting her revenge. That's a pretty big rumor going around.

Speaking of surprises about Jon Snow... do you think either we, the viewers, or himself will learn about his parentage in the final episode? TV writers seem to have the assumption that show watchers have no memory so from this mindset it would be weird to show the Tower of Joy, introduce a young Ned Stark, and then have people forget about it until next year.

It wouldn't be an introduction to the young Ned Stark. We've seen him already. Secondly, nobody is going to forget Jon's parentage. It's going to psych them up for next season to see how Jon finds out about it and what he will do when he does.

[Podaar]

Yeah, I'll actually be surprised if the season doesn't end with Bran having a vision of young Ned holding a baby boy in his arms while Lyanna says, "Promise me."

[Prog Snob]

Yeah, I'll actually be surprised if the season doesn't end with Bran having a vision of young Ned holding a baby boy in his arms while Lyanna says, "Promise me."

That's exactly what's going to happen. The actor playing young Ned is supposed to be in the season finale. Whether or not that's really true, we'll see.

[gmillerdrake]

Any chance Sansa explains herself to Jon in the next episode as to why she kept the Nights of the Vale a secret? I mean, he's probably gonna confront her on that one.

[Prog Snob]

He would be foolish not to mention it to her. It's definitely something that the commander of a battle should know. 

[gmillerdrake]

He would be foolish not to mention it to her. It's definitely something that the commander of a battle should know. 

"Hey sis....thanks for the F'n heads up. That would have been a cool piece of info. to know..."

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, no shit.

[cramx3]

I dont think he has a choice considering he is now surrounded by another army that to him, came out of no where and he has no idea who LF even is (might know of him, but never met him). 

I think the better question is, what are the chances LF just takes WF for himself?    I don't think he does that considering his love for Sansa, but I wouldn't put it past him.

[Prog Snob]

He would be foolish not to mention it to her. It's definitely something that the commander of a battle should know. 

"Hey sis....thanks for the F'n heads up. That would have been a cool piece of info. to know..."

"Bastard."

[Prog Snob]

[gmillerdrake]

I think the better question is, what are the chances LF just takes WF for himself?    I don't think he does that considering his love for Sansa, but I wouldn't put it past him.

LF has the Vale already. The only thing in Winterfell LF wants is Sansa

[cramx3]

I think the better question is, what are the chances LF just takes WF for himself?    I don't think he does that considering his love for Sansa, but I wouldn't put it past him.

LF has the Vale already. The only thing in Winterfell LF wants is Sansa

The Vale is nothing compared to the North.  While LF's intentions are still a mystery (and they very well could just be to have Sansa for himself) it has always seemed like he wanted more power.  Marrying Sansa would help with that, but I wouldn't put anything past him.

Sadly since the show is ending, I think the idea of LF attempting to conquer the North would be a plotline too long for the show so I'm not serious in considering it.  I could seriously see him getting killed by a White Walker next season though

[gmillerdrake]

  I could seriously see him getting killed by a White Walker next season though

that'd be funny. But it does seem that all his separate deals and behind the scene actions would catch up to him sooner or later. He's ticked off and double crossed countless folks....

[MirrorMask]

What is actually Littlefinger's stand with the Lannisters now? last time he spoke with Cersei he was like "Let the Boltons and Stannis kill each other, once they're done I come in and take over the weakened winner". Could he still present himself to the crown, "Hey I've secured the North for you"?

I still can't figure out his endgame... he has - somehow - the North and the Vale, is that enough to, dunno, wage war against King's Landing? I would love for him to succeed, either sits on the Iron Throne or be the actual power directly behind it (like Tywin was), and then like the very next day either a dragon eats him, or the White Walkers kick his ass  it would be fun to see him achieve all his plans and get done by the only thing he couldn't foresee, "climate change".

[seasonsinthesky]

What is actually Littlefinger's stand with the Lannisters now? last time he spoke with Cersei he was like "Let the Boltons and Stannis kill each other, once they're done I come in and take over the weakened winner". Could he still present himself to the crown, "Hey I've secured the North for you"?

I still can't figure out his endgame... he has - somehow - the North and the Vale, is that enough to, dunno, wage war against King's Landing? I would love for him to succeed, either sits on the Iron Throne or be the actual power directly behind it (like Tywin was), and then like the very next day either a dragon eats him, or the White Walkers kick his ass  it would be fun to see him achieve all his plans and get done by the only thing he couldn't foresee, "climate change".

Surely that wouldn't be enough to run a siege on King's Landing now that Jon's tiny army is even tinier and whatever was left of the Bolton forces wouldn't be usable. Unless the Vale keeps its army in Winterfell, there's probably not even enough left to defend the place.

Then again maybe the victory would allow the neutral houses to join back together. At least one of them seemed to be a sizable amount of soldiers from the way Jon and co. were talking shop at the time.

[Podaar]

Isn't he still the Lord of Harrenhall too?

[Prog Snob]

Isn't he still the Lord of Harrenhall too?

I believe he still holds that title.

[cramx3]

Isn't he still the Lord of Harrenhall too?

I believe he still holds that title.

A meaningless title, as someone on the show had said previously.

[Prog Snob]

Isn't he still the Lord of Harrenhall too?

I believe he still holds that title.

A meaningless title, as someone on the show had said previously.

Pretty much.

[Progmetty]

I have little to no doubt now that LF is the one who wrote the pink letter to Jon Snow, since Ramsay tells Jon that he'll pardon him for deserting the Night's Watch if he kneels for him, contrary to the letter's content which repeatedly invited Jon to "come and see".