Author Topic: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread  (Read 646839 times)

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1820 on: June 03, 2014, 09:27:11 PM »
And (I hope) retaking the North. After all, Robert Arryn would make a great puppet king.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1821 on: June 03, 2014, 09:36:54 PM »
I didn't enjoy this episode, and I might even need to take a break from GoT for a while. It's just a never ending carousel of awesome characters who make an appearance, win over fans, and then die in some brutal way. Oberyn may have been minor (although I'm sure there will be larger repercussions once Dorne hears what happened), but it was still a major disappointment for me to see him go like that. It's sadistic the way they're playing with my emotions like this, and it's pushing me into a state of noncompliance.
I reached this point in season 3. I know GRRM does all this because he wants to make us think that nobody is safe and always fear for our favourite characters etc., but all it's done to me is mean that I don't really care about any of the characters, because they're only going to die soon anyway so why bother. So it's not particularly that I thought Oberyn was worthy and wanted him to get his revenge or anything, I just liked watching him because he was witty and entertaining, and now won't be in the show anymore.

Well put. I number of characters whose scenes I look forward to seems to dwindle with each week. Even Danaerys hasn't really done anything for awhile.

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1822 on: June 04, 2014, 12:47:08 AM »
I didn't enjoy this episode, and I might even need to take a break from GoT for a while. It's just a never ending carousel of awesome characters who make an appearance, win over fans, and then die in some brutal way. Oberyn may have been minor (although I'm sure there will be larger repercussions once Dorne hears what happened), but it was still a major disappointment for me to see him go like that. It's sadistic the way they're playing with my emotions like this, and it's pushing me into a state of noncompliance.
I reached this point in season 3. I know GRRM does all this because he wants to make us think that nobody is safe and always fear for our favourite characters etc., but all it's done to me is mean that I don't really care about any of the characters, because they're only going to die soon anyway so why bother. So it's not particularly that I thought Oberyn was worthy and wanted him to get his revenge or anything, I just liked watching him because he was witty and entertaining, and now won't be in the show anymore.

Well put. I number of characters whose scenes I look forward to seems to dwindle with each week. Even Danaerys hasn't really done anything for awhile.
Agreed, I've found her fairly boring for the last season and a half.

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Offline snapple

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1823 on: June 04, 2014, 05:56:24 AM »
thank god she hasn't done anything. We need more STANNIS!


Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1824 on: June 04, 2014, 06:00:49 AM »
I'm not a Stannis fan. He sold his soul to the lord of light and started burning his people alive. On top of that, Hodor has more charisma in a single finger than Stannis.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1825 on: June 04, 2014, 06:03:39 AM »
I'm not a Stannis fan. He sold his soul to the lord of light and started burning his people alive. On top of that, Hodor has more charisma in a single finger than Stannis.

Then you are just another soul to offer to the Lord of Light!

Offline Dimitrius

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1826 on: June 04, 2014, 07:07:45 AM »
I didn't enjoy this episode, and I might even need to take a break from GoT for a while. It's just a never ending carousel of awesome characters who make an appearance, win over fans, and then die in some brutal way. Oberyn may have been minor (although I'm sure there will be larger repercussions once Dorne hears what happened), but it was still a major disappointment for me to see him go like that. It's sadistic the way they're playing with my emotions like this, and it's pushing me into a state of noncompliance.
I reached this point in season 3. I know GRRM does all this because he wants to make us think that nobody is safe and always fear for our favourite characters etc., but all it's done to me is mean that I don't really care about any of the characters, because they're only going to die soon anyway so why bother. So it's not particularly that I thought Oberyn was worthy and wanted him to get his revenge or anything, I just liked watching him because he was witty and entertaining, and now won't be in the show anymore.

Well put. I number of characters whose scenes I look forward to seems to dwindle with each week. Even Danaerys hasn't really done anything for awhile.
Agreed, I've found her fairly boring for the last season and a half.
Then you won't like her going forward!



And Stannis the Mannis is your rightful king! Your just king! Your only king!
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1827 on: June 04, 2014, 07:14:36 AM »
hodor



the story telling technique reminds me a bit of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo.

He clearly has favorites too as an author. He distracts you from the ones you want to hear about by going back and forth to those you don't. In dragon tattoo..we just want to know about the "girl" such a fascinating character. In this, it's similar but with more distractions. Whoever your favorite is, John Snow and Tyrian are clearly "his favorites" and he distracts us with others until he has us pouting and then brings us back to them. It's brilliant.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1828 on: June 04, 2014, 07:29:42 AM »
And Stannis the Mannis is your rightful king! Your just king! Your only king!

I don't know enough about this to really disagree, but how? The Baratheon's took the throne from the Targaryens by right of conquest, correct? Seems to me like the same logic could be applied to the Blackwater, at which point the Lannisters and Tyrells defeated Stannis and claimed the throne by right of conquest. In other words, Joffrey was analogous to a conquerer because no one could take him off the throne and Stannis was defeated in battle. Or maybe I'm all confused... Besides, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who is the rightful king.


Whoever your favorite is, John Snow and Tyrian are clearly "his favorites" and he distracts us with others until he has us pouting and then brings us back to them. It's brilliant agonizing.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1829 on: June 04, 2014, 07:36:44 AM »
Keeps you hooked though....amirite?


Agonizing was LOST. Because you didn't care, you just wanted answers. You never got any. You just got more questions.
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Offline Dimitrius

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1830 on: June 04, 2014, 07:37:29 AM »
And Stannis the Mannis is your rightful king! Your just king! Your only king!

I don't know enough about this to really disagree, but how? The Baratheon's took the throne from the Targaryens by right of conquest, correct? Seems to me like the same logic could be applied to the Blackwater, at which point the Lannisters and Tyrells defeated Stannis and claimed the throne by right of conquest. In other words, Joffrey was analogous to a conquerer because no one could take him off the throne and Stannis was defeated in battle. Or maybe I'm all confused... Besides, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who is the rightful king.
:lol You took that way more seriously that I intended. I just love book version of him (who has a great sarcastic, dry humor without being obviously funny, utters some fantastic lines and it's not as villain-y as he is in the series).

I guess if I were to think about it, the Bratheons did take the throne by right of conquest, but they still killed off all male Targaryens who had any claim to the throne. Since Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are products of incest and not trueborn Baratheons, legally the throne is Stannis'. But since Stannis is everything that Robert and Renly aren't, no one cares about his claim.


Also, I disagree a bit about the storytelling thing. He uses so many characters not to make you want to see Jon and Tyrion, but because this is a huge continent, and a massive story with three main threads that can't possibly be explored with two characters. He needs more than one character. For example, Sansa was needed in ACoK/s2 because she was our eyes into the drama of King's Landing. Tyrion was there, yes, but he was concerning himself more with trying to get the city ready for the impending attack of Stannis and cleaning up all the shit Cersei and Joffrey were doing.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 07:42:34 AM by Dimitrius »
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1831 on: June 04, 2014, 07:43:28 AM »
Yeah, I wasn't sure if you were being serious, but I figured I'd ask since those were some questions I had been thinking about  :lol

I can see how his dry delivery could be funny in the books, though.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1832 on: June 04, 2014, 08:49:24 AM »
Most book readers will say the show butchered Stannis' character.  I think people's view on Stannis can change though.  As Dimitrius stated, he isnt so villainous in the books and the show can change that in the future with his storyline so we will see.

As for him being defeated at the blackwater, Id say since he wasnt killed and still has an army, that he was not defeated completely.  Lost a battle, not the war.  And now the Iron Bank has got his back so this could definitely get interesting.

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1833 on: June 04, 2014, 09:41:40 AM »
Yeah, Robert Baratheon took the throne by conquest, but the Targaryens forged the throne through conquest.  Before them, there were just 7 separate kingdoms.

There is no "legitimate" or "rightful" king.  There is just the king.

IMHO
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Offline snapple

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1834 on: June 04, 2014, 11:46:55 AM »
Yeah, Robert Baratheon took the throne by conquest, but the Targaryens forged the throne through conquest.  Before them, there were just 7 separate kingdoms.

There is no "legitimate" or "rightful" king (other than Stannis).  There is just the king.

IMHO

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1835 on: June 04, 2014, 01:27:02 PM »
Perhaps he's getting his own spin-off show now?

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1836 on: June 04, 2014, 04:30:24 PM »
Most book readers will say the show butchered Stannis' character.  I think people's view on Stannis can change though.  As Dimitrius stated, he isnt so villainous in the books and the show can change that in the future with his storyline so we will see.
I wonder if this was a choice by D&D after talking to GRRM (he's stated that he didn't mean for Stannis to become so likeable) or that they just don't get him.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1837 on: June 04, 2014, 06:58:31 PM »
Most book readers will say the show butchered Stannis' character.  I think people's view on Stannis can change though.  As Dimitrius stated, he isnt so villainous in the books and the show can change that in the future with his storyline so we will see.
I wonder if this was a choice by D&D after talking to GRRM (he's stated that he didn't mean for Stannis to become so likeable) or that they just don't get him.

Who knows, but... spoilers

I didnt particularly like him until after he rescued the nights watch and thats kind of what I was hinting at when I said peoples views can change.  In the books his character never really changed, but I think his relationship with Mel is what makes people not like him and they made his relationship even worse in the show

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1838 on: June 04, 2014, 07:13:35 PM »
Most book readers will say the show butchered Stannis' character.  I think people's view on Stannis can change though.  As Dimitrius stated, he isnt so villainous in the books and the show can change that in the future with his storyline so we will see.
I wonder if this was a choice by D&D after talking to GRRM (he's stated that he didn't mean for Stannis to become so likeable) or that they just don't get him.

Who knows, but... spoilers

I didnt particularly like him until after he rescued the nights watch and thats kind of what I was hinting at when I said peoples views can change.  In the books his character never really changed, but I think his relationship with Mel is what makes people not like him and they made his relationship even worse in the show
His lines about going to hell thinking of Renly's peach and how Robert could give people piss and people would gladly drink it yet Stannis would give them water and they would say how queer the taste was were what drove me to his side.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1839 on: June 04, 2014, 08:37:32 PM »
I didn't enjoy this episode, and I might even need to take a break from GoT for a while. It's just a never ending carousel of awesome characters who make an appearance, win over fans, and then die in some brutal way. Oberyn may have been minor (although I'm sure there will be larger repercussions once Dorne hears what happened), but it was still a major disappointment for me to see him go like that. It's sadistic the way they're playing with my emotions like this, and it's pushing me into a state of noncompliance.
I reached this point in season 3. I know GRRM does all this because he wants to make us think that nobody is safe and always fear for our favourite characters etc., but all it's done to me is mean that I don't really care about any of the characters, because they're only going to die soon anyway so why bother. So it's not particularly that I thought Oberyn was worthy and wanted him to get his revenge or anything, I just liked watching him because he was witty and entertaining, and now won't be in the show anymore.

Well put. I number of characters whose scenes I look forward to seems to dwindle with each week. Even Danaerys hasn't really done anything for awhile.

I think there's a difference between what Martin does with the books and what D&D do in the TV show that's problematic, and it hit me at the end of last week's episode. And interestingly, it hit me in a scene that was the most faithful to the source material since arguably Ned's death in Oberyn's death.

Martin's "no character is safe" is an oversimplification of what he does, because in truth, the books are about busily subverting the tropes of fantasy fiction. Characters who SHOULD live, who would live in any other piece of fiction, die horrible, brutal deaths as a consequence of their actions and decisions. Oberyn died because he chose not to kill the Mountain when he had the chance. He died horribly, and worse, precisely in the same fashion as his sister did. It's a consequence of his decisions and choices. No one who dies in these books dies just because it's time for someone to die. Ned died because he was too noble and wasn't willing to play the game in the only way he needed to win. Robb died because he chose to break his treaty with the Freys. It's about consequence and choice.

D&D, however, make a television show. And in the television show, "no one is safe" is all that is left of Martin's mission statement. Oberyn's character arc in the TV series was not to make a statement on revenge, it was to get us to the graphic money shot of exploded skull. In the books, the result of the fight is identical, but Martin looks away at the visceral horror the other characters feel at what happened at the very end. They emphasize the wrong thing in the effort to be shocking and to generate buzz. Martin isn't the one who is making us all feel sick for backing characters who die horribly, it's the way D&D are emphasizing the wrong thing. They don't get the nuance of the books. Give them the spectacularly creepy way the Jaime/Cersei having sex beside of the corpse of their dead (conceived in incest no less!) son was presented by the books, they chose instead to shoot it and frame it in a way that screamed non-consensual sex, but clearly, since Jaime is still on the same arc he was in the books, they didn't even realize it was problematic.

I give them a lot of slack on the flat out changes they do at times, because Martin's glacial writing speed (and today he said the series might go to 8 books) means that the show will likely finish long before the books do. But their inability to see the nuance and essence of the books, and instead focus on and emphasize things the way they do just to generate buzz and ratings, that I can't let slide. And worse, it's making people think the books are simple hack and slash fests where everyone dies for no particular reason. They could make virtually the same series if they had the right emphasis and people would still be stunned. But I wouldn't feel so cheapened by watching it.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1840 on: June 04, 2014, 08:47:22 PM »
I think the Jamie/Cersei sex scene this season was extremely poorly done, especially since afterwards the creators said they didnt want it to come off as rape (which it very much did).  And it definitely wasn't rape in the books although very weird considering the circumstances (and in the books, Joffrey's body actually falls on them).

Overall, Id say the TV show has done a very good job at adapting a very dense series of books into an extremely successful TV show.  Is it true to the books? No, but it keeps the overall story intact and they did a great job in getting the actors and actresses to fill the roles (including Oberyn who was amazing).  I would say its practically impossible to adapt the books to screen and staying 100% true to the books and if they did, it probably might not be so good honestly.

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1841 on: June 05, 2014, 05:40:00 AM »
I think the Jamie/Cersei sex scene this season was extremely poorly done, especially since afterwards the creators said they didnt want it to come off as rape (which it very much did).  And it definitely wasn't rape in the books although very weird considering the circumstances (and in the books, Joffrey's body actually falls on them).
What? No it doesn't! They don't have sex on the bier or on the ground next to it. They have it on the Mother's altar of the sept.

Completely agree with what Jaq said. Especially the deaths of Ned and Robb were done to break the clichés of fiction (the unjustly killed father and the son who rises up and gets revenge) while still having very true reasons to why they died.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1842 on: June 05, 2014, 06:19:28 AM »
I get what he said about Ned being killed because he was too caught up in being honorable, particularly in the events leading up to his final scene. However, when push came to shove, he did give in and plead guilty. At that point, his death was more the result of Joffrey being out of control than anything else. Even so, his death did serve a very large purpose, so I didn't have a lot of trouble accepting it, the way I have with Oberyn.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1843 on: June 05, 2014, 08:14:52 AM »
I get what he said about Ned being killed because he was too caught up in being honorable, particularly in the events leading up to his final scene. However, when push came to shove, he did give in and plead guilty. At that point, his death was more the result of Joffrey being out of control than anything else. Even so, his death did serve a very large purpose, so I didn't have a lot of trouble accepting it, the way I have with Oberyn.

It's a bit early in the TV series to judge Oberyn's death as pointless and gratuitous. The writers may bring it around yet. They've surprised us all before now.

Still, I must agree with Jaq. A bit more emphasis on Oberyn's impulsiveness and towering pride might have made the event more seamless. In spite of his mastery of the spear his flawed nature got the better of him: Dooming both he and Tyrian to his arrogance. The show brushed over this so quick that it seemed just a sidebar to the unnecessarily grizzly 'money shot' as Jaq characterised it. It should have been more the point IMO.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1844 on: June 05, 2014, 09:03:46 AM »
I don't know what you are all talking about. That Ned's honor more or less cost him his life, that Robb's poor choices cost him his, and that Oberyn's personality cost him his was perfectly clear on the show to me. Not at all did I get the feeling that they did it just to shock people, in any of those three cases.

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1845 on: June 05, 2014, 10:18:43 AM »
A few videos to lighten up the mood after that death. I'm actually feel a bit easier now. :D

(no book spoilers, only spoilers about the last episode)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpewbz7GwCU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oOi6JOXEQ#t=77

In fact, Oberyn death seen on screen made me flinch. Kept imagining it again and again next day, and that usually doesn't happen to me when I watch anything.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1846 on: June 05, 2014, 10:52:46 AM »
In fact, Oberyn death seen on screen made me flinch. Kept imagining it again and again next day, and that usually doesn't happen to me when I watch anything.

Same here... Same here... The worst part wasn't even the head-implosion moment. The worst was the look on his face when the mountain lifted him on top of him, and then his screams when he got his eyes gouged out.

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1847 on: June 05, 2014, 11:03:45 AM »
Yep, same here as well. Things like that have never bothered me but for some reason this scene got to me. Probably because I got to like the character a great deal and really quickly, from his first scenes and then his triumph being taken away in a really silly manner. But that was his character after all.

I also loved Jaime's face when watching him fight, that was a nice touch too.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:10:10 AM by abydos »

Offline cramx3

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1848 on: June 05, 2014, 11:12:10 AM »
All the reactions were well done.

Dimitrius, you are right, not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that.  Clearly my memory of the books is off to say the least. lol

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1849 on: June 05, 2014, 12:19:55 PM »
In fact, Oberyn death seen on screen made me flinch. Kept imagining it again and again next day, and that usually doesn't happen to me when I watch anything.

Same here... Same here... The worst part wasn't even the head-implosion moment. The worst was the look on his face when the mountain lifted him on top of him, and then his screams when he got his eyes gouged out.

Yep, same here as well. Things like that have never bothered me but for some reason this scene got to me. Probably because I got to like the character a great deal and really quickly, from his first scenes and then his triumph being taken away in a really silly manner. But that was his character after all.

I also loved Jaime's face when watching him fight, that was a nice touch too.

I had the same reaction and sentiments. I just really 'liked' that character and for him to have his mission ripped away from him so quickly, especially when he had handily "defeated" the mountain.....and the manner in which it was taken....it stuck with me for a bit.

The reactions were great, from Jamie to Oberyn, you're right BlackInk....when he was being lifted up that was sheer terror on his face because I'm sure he realized he was done for.

It's interesting to hear about the book Oberyn because the show, although they did portray his as confident....never pushed it any furhter than that. He wasn't overly cocky in the show....other than that last moment when he was sharing a glance with his wife when the mountain swiped his legs from under him. Had he been presented differently on the show I guess I wouldn't have minded so much his brutal death. I don't know...I've said it a couple times but his death really got me...far above any of the others on the show.
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1850 on: June 05, 2014, 01:04:17 PM »
I'd say Oberyn's introduction and storyline seemed to have pretty much the same effect in book and in show. I started reading the books during / after watching season 3 so that part was the first major storyline I experienced in the books first rather than the show.

Unfortunate that his time in the story was so short but impressive what a big impact he had, looks like he'll be one of the most popular characters from the show the same as he seems to be among book readers.

I always basically thought of it as him winning the fight but dying despite his victory, and Tyrion losing his trial by combat by technicality. It is "disappointing" since obviously Oberyn (and Tyrion) are the ones we support, but I don't think of it as being so terrible from a story point of view as some here seem to. It's a shame that Oberyn had to die for it, but I think it makes things very interesting, possibly more interesting than the Red Viper coming in and wrapping things up in a neat little bow. The suspense for episode 10 is huge now.

But first things first, Watchers On The Wall. I obviously have been looking forward to seeing a battle at the Wall, but I don't really feel that the season has built up too much anticipation for this episode. I think it will have to carry itself on just being an awesome episode in isolation, rather than "the one everyone was waiting for", which was always going to be inevitable, and I've got high hopes it will do it.  But I always felt the trial by combat was going to be the real climax / key moment of this season, and I think other episodes will be the most talked about from this season rather than episode 9.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1851 on: June 05, 2014, 01:26:30 PM »
Another thing about that fight....as bummed as I was about Oberyn it was actually kind of cool if the Mountain does indeed die of his wounds....becasue here you have this almost mythilogical fighter....legendary, who's last "kill" was in that manner....in that moment where the man who killed him had all but thought he was down and out. But alas....the herculian fighter musters up enough strength to crush his killers skull!
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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1852 on: June 05, 2014, 01:27:15 PM »
I haven't read all the books (stopped after #3 I think), but while reading them I always enjoyed the chapters about The Wall a great deal. For some reason, though, that part in the tv show is my least favourite.

Also, potential spoilers, but I have a question about those who have finished the books: I seem to remember reading that Rob and Ned's wife (forgot her name), were resurrected at some point. Is this actually a thing or did I somehow fabricate this memory and when is it happening?

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1853 on: June 05, 2014, 01:45:32 PM »
Also, potential spoilers, but I have a question about those who have finished the books: I seem to remember reading that Rob and Ned's wife (forgot her name), were resurrected at some point. Is this actually a thing or did I somehow fabricate this memory and when is it happening?
Spoilers:
It did happen. It's unknown when (or even if, since it's possible things will be different in the show) when it will happen in the show. Lots of people thought it would be season 3 episode 10, I think some people now expect it could be season 4 episode 10 (possibly with Brienne seeing her). Not much has come of the storyline in the books so far though (despite there being two books since the initial reveal).

Edit: Robb is not resurrected, only Catelyn (at least so far).

« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 02:53:54 PM by RuRoRul »

Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #1854 on: June 05, 2014, 01:47:06 PM »
Edit: Double
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 02:57:07 PM by RuRoRul »