Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)

[gmillerdrake]

I got my tickets for the Saturday afternoon (earliest showing with decent seats left) but I’m not nearly as pumped for this as everyone else seems to be.

I gotta give JJ credit. He has mastered the art of creating things enjoyable to the most amount of people. But I also think that’s an issue with me. Little of what he does seems very inspired. It seems more like a brilliant dude found a genius way to make what has the most mass appeal. So many of his movies (though certainly not all) feel like the best possible product of a board meeting dictating fan expectations. Like his movies are amazing candy. You get a great sugar rush and it tastes awesome but there’s little that stays with you or feeds you.

Also might just be me.

I don't really have a problem with that description.  But I also don't really have a problem with that concept either.  It's Star Wars, so it's meant to be a fun rush, and not really meant to "feed" you.  It is movie candy.  And that can still be very satisfying, but for very different reasons than something that inspires serious thought, or reflection, or provokes "deeper" emotions.

I agree with Bosk here. Adami has a point but I don't think it's a bad thing. It's Star Wars. I mean, have you watched the OT lately? Those aren't exactly pillars of thespian performances or character development. They're fun movies....cool stories....and where I disagree with Katt on this is I think this 'new' batch of characters has had enough development to garner some feelings for them.

As far as what TheOutlaw brings up about RJ's approach to TLJ.....i think it produced the best 'movie' out of all the efforts....for me. R1 is a close second.

[jingle.boy]

I got my tickets for the Saturday afternoon (earliest showing with decent seats left) but I’m not nearly as pumped for this as everyone else seems to be.

I gotta give JJ credit. He has mastered the art of creating things enjoyable to the most amount of people. But I also think that’s an issue with me. Little of what he does seems very inspired. It seems more like a brilliant dude found a genius way to make what has the most mass appeal. So many of his movies (though certainly not all) feel like the best possible product of a board meeting dictating fan expectations. Like his movies are amazing candy. You get a great sugar rush and it tastes awesome but there’s little that stays with you or feeds you.

Also might just be me.

I don't really have a problem with that description.  But I also don't really have a problem with that concept either.  It's Star Wars, so it's meant to be a fun rush, and not really meant to "feed" you.  It is movie candy.  And that can still be very satisfying, but for very different reasons than something that inspires serious thought, or reflection, or provokes "deeper" emotions.

I agree with Bosk here. Adami has a point but I don't think it's a bad thing. It's Star Wars. I mean, have you watched the OT lately? Those aren't exactly pillars of thespian performances or character development. They're fun movies....cool stories....and where I disagree with Katt on this is I think this 'new' batch of characters has had enough development to garner some feelings for them.

I'm with both Adami and Katt on this.  The difference with the OT (relating to what G says above), is that the OT was groundbreaking and original for its time.  The PT was also ground-breaking (to some extent) as it took the eye-candy experience to another level (given the technological improvements for fx and film-making), and gave us an entirely new Star Wars experience (visually) ... albeit at the expense of telling a good story.  This trilogy is achieves neither of those things.

I'll go see it in the theatre, but I'll be stepping over my expectations on my way in the door.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I don't agree with any of that (Katt and Jingle).

[The Walrus]

I can't name a single interesting thing about any of the characters. Not a one. Absolutely nothing.

[bosk1]

That's about how I have felt about pretty much any Bond character.

[MoraWintersoul]

OT: All three of them are hot in their own way.
NT: All three of them are hot in their own way.

Next question 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

While I potentially agree that none of the characters in the ST are as interesting as, say, Han Solo or Darth Vader, I still enjoy them because I really like each of the actors. Their performances are definitely worth something, at least to me.

[Stadler]

Since I won the electoral college in a landslide in 2016, I feel it's up to me to break the tie between Bosk/Gary and Jingle/Katt... and the winner is....   Jingle and Katt.

I was ready to concede out the gate that it's age, but with Katt in tow, it kind of shoots that theory...  it might have been cartoony, but it wasn't shallow; you knew enough to form the pillars of good story-telling.  And there was tension; Leia had a problem (Vader) that needed solving, and Ben, Luke, Han and Chewie were there to help.  But could Ben be trusted (hanging out in the sand like he did)?  Could Luke be trusted (that impulsive youth who couldn't bother with training, just wanted to fly like his dad)?  Could Han be trusted (smuggler who might or might not have shot a guy in cold blood and whose guiding force seems to be money)?   Could Chewie be trusted (and if he could, how would you know)? 

Lucas is no dummy.   Stormtroopers in anonymous masks destroying entire farms.  The evil guy in the anonymous mask choking people - friend AND foe alike - to get his way.  Young blonde idealist fighting with his parental figures for his freedom.  Young. punky girl (it WAS 1977) giving the metaphorical finger to the "Establishment" "Evil Empire".  It was magical, really. Simple in the way that the best rock and roll is "simple", but, also like the best rock and roll, effective and to the point.  I think the first film is one of the best movies ever produced.  But when you retreat old ground, it's infinitely harder.   You're carrying the baggage of what came before.  You cannot help but compare Kylo to Vader, and Daisy to Luke.  It's inevitable. 

To me, that makes it almost impossible for Abrams to bring anything radically new to the equation, so it really leaves two options:  instill that subtle, intuitive tension into the familiar parts of the equation (can Rey be trusted?  Finn?), or simply pander to the fans wishes.   I have to go back to The Force Awakens to watch it again, but my recollection is that it tried to dance the line, but erred on the side of pander.

I have not seen the Last Jedi yet.

[jingle.boy]

I have not seen the Last Jedi yet.

You haven't missed anything.  It's a poor man's version of ESB, with too many plot holes to overlook - ones that you can drive a tank thru.  But there is one really cool scene.

[The Walrus]

That's about how I have felt about pretty much any Bond character.

Weird flex but okay - that doesn't excuse Star Wars' laziness

[bosk1]

Since I won the electoral college in a landslide in 2016, I feel it's up to me to break the tie between Bosk/Gary and Jingle/Katt... and the winner is....   Jingle and Katt.

I was ready to concede out the gate that it's age, but with Katt in tow, it kind of shoots that theory...  it might have been cartoony, but it wasn't shallow; you knew enough to form the pillars of good story-telling.  And there was tension; Leia had a problem (Vader) that needed solving, and Ben, Luke, Han and Chewie were there to help.  But could Ben be trusted (hanging out in the sand like he did)?  Could Luke be trusted (that impulsive youth who couldn't bother with training, just wanted to fly like his dad)?  Could Han be trusted (smuggler who might or might not have shot a guy in cold blood and whose guiding force seems to be money)?   Could Chewie be trusted (and if he could, how would you know)? 

Lucas is no dummy.   Stormtroopers in anonymous masks destroying entire farms.  The evil guy in the anonymous mask choking people - friend AND foe alike - to get his way.  Young blonde idealist fighting with his parental figures for his freedom.  Young. punky girl (it WAS 1977) giving the metaphorical finger to the "Establishment" "Evil Empire".  It was magical, really. Simple in the way that the best rock and roll is "simple", but, also like the best rock and roll, effective and to the point.  I think the first film is one of the best movies ever produced.  But when you retreat old ground, it's infinitely harder.   You're carrying the baggage of what came before.  You cannot help but compare Kylo to Vader, and Daisy to Luke.  It's inevitable. 

To me, that makes it almost impossible for Abrams to bring anything radically new to the equation, so it really leaves two options:  instill that subtle, intuitive tension into the familiar parts of the equation (can Rey be trusted?  Finn?), or simply pander to the fans wishes.   I have to go back to The Force Awakens to watch it again, but my recollection is that it tried to dance the line, but erred on the side of pander.

I have not seen the Last Jedi yet.

I don't really disagree with the substance of anything you said.  But I also just don't view it as a problem, or as "lazy," or anything negative.

That's about how I have felt about pretty much any Bond character.

Weird flex but okay - that doesn't excuse Star Wars' laziness

  Well, what I was trying to say is simply that, similar to how you rightly corrected me recently when I pointed out that Bond films felt kind of formulaic and tired (I didn't go quite that far, but some others in the thread did) and thus didn't really do anything that appealed to me, you pointed out that that's really only a very cursory and simplistic way of viewing the series, and I'm just saying that I think your description of Star Wars is similarly cursory and simplistic.  I'm not saying you are "wrong," just as you weren't really saying that my feeling about Bond were "wrong."  No biggie.  I just kind of feel like people maybe take how big a phenomenon Star Wars is, and project higher expectations on it because of that, and then critics blast it or write it off harder than maybe it deserves because of that.  But, heck, we do that with things all the time (me with Bond, for example). 

[The Walrus]

In my defense, I left it at 'simplistic' as you put it because I've gone over my many issues with Star Wars in the past and didn't want to beat the dead horse (too much) 

But like seriously, even though I sound like a broken record... 9 films. One lineage. An entire galaxy you could explore and they just don't. This last trilogy... it's been trying, I guess, to kind of build up new characters, but they just cannot let go of the freaking Skywalkers, Chewbacca, Lando, R2D2, C3PO, oh my god, do something new. Wait! They did. Emperor Snoke looked so cool aaaaaand nope he's gone, out like a light. Captain Phasma, ooh, shiny armoh no RIP I guess. Several hours of screen time and almost no character development done for anybody other than maybe Kylo and Rey, and even they are just kind of... template characters doing the best with what a mediocre script has to offer. Entire scenes in TFA and TLJ completely unnecessary and adding nothing to the overall story or development of characters. I just don't get it man. This universe has so much freaking potential and they never actually try to squeeze that delicious juice out of it, they just keep making the same thing and it annoys me to death that something this popular and beloved ignores so many cool potential film storylines in favor of retreading the Skywalkers for the third trilogy in a row.

Now look at what you've made me do, bosk. I've beaten that horse into trillions of atoms once again.  No knock on anybody who's excited for it, just putting a different view out there.

[pg1067]

I got my ticket for Friday night...GREAT way to start two weeks off from work!

[Polarbear]

  Just dropping by to say that the trailer pushed all the right buttons for me, while not revealing too much! And i dig the new trilogy thus far, mostly because the characters are far more interesting to me compared to their prequel counterparts.

Can't wait for December!

[hefdaddy42]

But like seriously, even though I sound like a broken record... 9 films. One lineage. An entire galaxy you could explore and they just don't. This last trilogy... it's been trying, I guess, to kind of build up new characters, but they just cannot let go of the freaking Skywalkers, Chewbacca, Lando, R2D2, C3PO, oh my god, do something new.

"New" is coming.

But they couldn't start with "new" when fans still love Luke, Leia, Chewy, Han, R2, and 3PO.  If Disney had come out of the gate with "new" without dealing with the OT characters, they would have had a mess on their hands, and I for one would be quite upset.

I don't get your outrage.  This trilogy is dispensing with the Skywalker Saga.  Then, everything that comes after (which will be plenty) will be "new".

[The Walrus]

But like seriously, even though I sound like a broken record... 9 films. One lineage. An entire galaxy you could explore and they just don't. This last trilogy... it's been trying, I guess, to kind of build up new characters, but they just cannot let go of the freaking Skywalkers, Chewbacca, Lando, R2D2, C3PO, oh my god, do something new.

"New" is coming.

But they couldn't start with "new" when fans still love Luke, Leia, Chewy, Han, R2, and 3PO.  If Disney had come out of the gate with "new" without dealing with the OT characters, they would have had a mess on their hands, and I for one would be quite upset.

I don't get your outrage.  This trilogy is dispensing with the Skywalker Saga.  Then, everything that comes after (which will be plenty) will be "new".

Well, first, it's not outrage, I'm just annoyed. But, point taken. Let's look at the EU and all the cool characters and events there. I think there is a LOT of cool stuff there that doesn't get the attention it deserves because the films... well, look at them, they cling desperately to the Skywalker story and don't really branch out in the galaxy. Also, I respectfully disagree that they would have had a 'mess' on their hands if they had started something new, because that is impossible to prove; you could apply that logic to the next trilogy that doesn't contain Rey or Kylo or Finn or Poe etc. And look at how strongly this current trilogy parallels the OT. There's hardly anything original there, many of the story beats and character match-ups are a spit and image of the OT. It just doesn't feel like they want to take risks with the story or characters. Jesus Organa was risky, sure, but in a bad way, it didn't justify itself. Luke's whole arc was risky and I still don't agree with some of the decisions made there but it at least makes more sense than that. Or when the dumb girl crashed into Finn, which any reasonable person would realize is a deadly error especially in the middle of a battlefield. Or that casino/animal chase. Or...

If my - as you call it - 'outrage' is incapable of comprehension, it boils down to the simple fact that I'm just plain sick of hearing about the Skywalkers and seeing the same characters and places and objects over and over and over. The only thing fresh about the current trilogy is the coat of paint. As for dispensing with the Skywalker saga in this trilogy - was it necessary? The prequels arguably weren't necessary, sure, but they at least showed the backstory of Anakin Skywalker. I'm not sure what the point of showing old Luke, Han, and Leia is other than shoehorning in ties to the new cast (Luke needs an apprentice in Rey, Kylo - big shock - is Han's boy, etc...)

I know the 'new' is coming, but this entire trilogy seems so pointless, in no small part because I thought Snoke was actually going to be a player in the game and it was nothing more than a red herring, and if he is mentioned again I'm almost 99% positive it'll just be because of Emperor I'll Never Go Away Because We Like To Make That Sweet Sweet Nostalgia Money

[bosk1]

The more you talk, the less I sympathize with your position. 

[hefdaddy42]

Let's look at the EU and all the cool characters and events there. I think there is a LOT of cool stuff there that doesn't get the attention it deserves because the films... well, look at them, they cling desperately to the Skywalker story and don't really branch out in the galaxy.

OK, now I see the problem.

You're an EU fan.

[pg1067]

But like seriously, even though I sound like a broken record... 9 films. One lineage. An entire galaxy you could explore and they just don't. This last trilogy... it's been trying, I guess, to kind of build up new characters, but they just cannot let go of the freaking Skywalkers, Chewbacca, Lando, R2D2, C3PO, oh my god, do something new.

"New" is coming.

But they couldn't start with "new" when fans still love Luke, Leia, Chewy, Han, R2, and 3PO.  If Disney had come out of the gate with "new" without dealing with the OT characters, they would have had a mess on their hands, and I for one would be quite upset.

I don't get your outrage.  This trilogy is dispensing with the Skywalker Saga.  Then, everything that comes after (which will be plenty) will be "new".

In addition, it's not like they just picked some random family.  The Skywalker family is possibly the singularly most important family in the story of the galactic events that is being told.  You can choose not to like that this is the perspective that was laid out since day 1, but it hardly makes sense to criticize for this reason -- ESPECIALLY since there's tons of stuff other than the movies that doesn't focus on the Skywalkers.  It's a little like criticizing the Godfather trilogy for focusing on the Corleones or a history of renaissance era Italy for focusing on the Borgias.

[hefdaddy42]

It's a little like criticizing the Godfather trilogy for focusing on the Corleones or a history of renaissance era Italy for focusing on the Borgias.

Exactly. 

[gmillerdrake]

New" is coming.

But they couldn't start with "new" when fans still love Luke, Leia, Chewy, Han, R2, and 3PO.  If Disney had come out of the gate with "new" without dealing with the OT characters, they would have had a mess on their hands, and I for one would be quite upset.

I don't get your outrage.  This trilogy is dispensing with the Skywalker Saga.  Then, everything that comes after (which will be plenty) will be "new".

This. They're tidying up a story that you can't just ignore for 'new' stuff.....AND.....lining up a ton of NEW STUFF.

[The Walrus]

Let's look at the EU and all the cool characters and events there. I think there is a LOT of cool stuff there that doesn't get the attention it deserves because the films... well, look at them, they cling desperately to the Skywalker story and don't really branch out in the galaxy.

OK, now I see the problem.

You're an EU fan.

No, I'm barely a Star Wars fan at all. I just see massively wasted potential in a fantasy universe I find otherwise compelling.

I disagree with the Godfather comparisons. There is only one Don. There are many other Jedi/Sith stories they could pursue. 9 films around the Skywalker line is too much.

I don't mind if nobody agrees with me. Just putting my thoughts out there.

[jingle.boy]

It's a little like criticizing the Godfather trilogy for focusing on the Corleones or a history of renaissance era Italy for focusing on the Borgias.

Exactly.

Please ... Coppola knew he'd exhausted things at 2 movies.  While I enjoy the 3rd, everyone knows it's a steaming pile.  Imagine 6 more movies with the Coreleones.

Three trilogies to tell the this arc is getting thin.  Nothing is new; nothing is original.  Nothing wows me

Edit: Ninja'd by Katt.  We're on the same page my man.

[hefdaddy42]

Let's look at the EU and all the cool characters and events there. I think there is a LOT of cool stuff there that doesn't get the attention it deserves because the films... well, look at them, they cling desperately to the Skywalker story and don't really branch out in the galaxy.

OK, now I see the problem.

You're an EU fan.

No, I'm barely a Star Wars fan at all. I just see massively wasted potential in a fantasy universe I find otherwise compelling.

God dammit

[Stadler]

And by the way, there is no one "Don"; technically any head of any of the five families is the Don, and between Godfather (my favorite movie of all time, bar none) and Godfather II, it's longer than the entire nine-film Skywalker sequence. 


 

(Fun fact:  the first TWO Godfather movies, in their original release format, are EXACTLY as long as the THREE original Star Wars trilogy films, at 377 minutes.)

[The Walrus]

to Chad.

Also to show that I'm not simply a curmudgeon, I have photoshopped myself into the new Star Wars film's poster. Look at it. May it burn your eyes. I look like a Dynasty Warriors character turned Jedi.

It's gonna be my new avatar.

[bosk1]

At least you FINALLY posted something in this thread worth looking at.

[The Walrus]

At least you FINALLY posted something in this thread worth looking at.

 

[The Walrus]

I'm so sorry for killing this thread   

[bosk1]

Killed?  This is the most action it has had in months. 

I will just leave you with these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrzjbb5aSQM&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCnm-3tnL3Q

[CrimsonSunrise]

Just watched the last trailer yesterday.  I must say I'm feeling kinda nostalgic thinking of the (hopeful) closure to Skywalker saga.  It's interesting how significant a part Star Wars has played in my life.  From all the movies, games, and books (EU, I've read at least 120 of them) I stood in line in '77 at the age of 13 and now will watch the final part of the arc at 56.  Frikken crazy!  I must say I've enjoyed the ride, and each of the 8 movies so far.  Yeah, some are better than others, but overall I love them all.  I hope I'll feel that same excitement after watching the final chapter as I did back in the summer of '77.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

But like seriously, even though I sound like a broken record... 9 films. One lineage. An entire galaxy you could explore and they just don't. This last trilogy... it's been trying, I guess, to kind of build up new characters, but they just cannot let go of the freaking Skywalkers, Chewbacca, Lando, R2D2, C3PO, oh my god, do something new.

"New" is coming.

But they couldn't start with "new" when fans still love Luke, Leia, Chewy, Han, R2, and 3PO.  If Disney had come out of the gate with "new" without dealing with the OT characters, they would have had a mess on their hands, and I for one would be quite upset.

I don't get your outrage.  This trilogy is dispensing with the Skywalker Saga.  Then, everything that comes after (which will be plenty) will be "new".

In addition, it's not like they just picked some random family.  The Skywalker family is possibly the singularly most important family in the story of the galactic events that is being told.  You can choose not to like that this is the perspective that was laid out since day 1, but it hardly makes sense to criticize for this reason -- ESPECIALLY since there's tons of stuff other than the movies that doesn't focus on the Skywalkers.  It's a little like criticizing the Godfather trilogy for focusing on the Corleones or a history of renaissance era Italy for focusing on the Borgias.

What I find interesting about this particular discussion is that there are a lot of fans who think that the new trilogy has not honored the Skywalker family enough. We obviously still need to see how IX plays out, but there's a decent chance that Kylo Ren ends up as the only Skywalker with a major role in all three films. That possibility has disappointed a lot of people because they were hoping Rey was a Skywalker and that Luke would still be alive in IX. Goes to show how many different viewpoints there are on the franchise.

[Stadler]

to Chad.

Also to show that I'm not simply a curmudgeon, I have photoshopped myself into the new Star Wars film's poster. Look at it. May it burn your eyes. I look like a Dynasty Warriors character turned Jedi.

It's gonna be my new avatar.

That's bad-ass on every level.

[The Walrus]

to Chad.

Also to show that I'm not simply a curmudgeon, I have photoshopped myself into the new Star Wars film's poster. Look at it. May it burn your eyes. I look like a Dynasty Warriors character turned Jedi.

It's gonna be my new avatar.

That's bad-ass on every level.

Haha thank you. Since you quoted this at just the right time, I actually put 5 more of my friends into it just using whatever Facebook photos I could find. https://i.imgur.com/gjXnx5k.jpg

[pg1067]

That possibility has disappointed a lot of people because they were hoping. . . .

You're right, and that's what annoys me to no end.  Folks decide in advance how the story should go and then get disappointed because their unreasonable preconceptions proved wrong.  Sigh....