Coronavirus Thread v.2

[lonestar]

It's absolutely worth a shot. They'll probably administer a couple. I just don't think there's much that'll get through to the diehard antivaxers. They've invested too much into their identities as stubborn super-geniuses.

[jingle.boy]

 

[Skeever]

[quote author=Stadler link=topic=56501.msg2800168#msg2800168
So where is the line then?   Is it on you  and your family to decide "well, maybe I don't get to go to concerts", or is it on Government to make sure that every concert gets played and only the vaccinated and masked get to see them (note, I said GOVERNMENT, not the promoter or the band). [/quote]

The Government being involved or not is not the same "zero sum" game for me. I personally would like to see actual data driving these kinds of decisions. Would it make sense to say "here are the types of events that can occur with X cases per 100,000/500,000/1,000,000"? Set rules for risk tolerance based on expert advise that we can all compromise and plan around. In the beginning, we heard people talk about doing things along these lines (my workplace also initially talked about reopening our in-office operations under this terminology). For some reason, that all stopped, and I have no idea why.

I think we're arguing semantics without having the language in front of us.   I'm not accusing you of being a victim, and I'm not saying we should do "nothing".   I'm saying that the victim culture REQUIRES that there be fault and that it be someone else.   I'm less arguing the "someone else" as I am the "that there is fault to begin with".  I feel bad for you and your family.  I'm sensitive to that.  My uncle died of COVID and if my dad gets it, it's likely game over (he lives in Florida, by the way).  I get the need to want everything to be as perfect as it can be, but at the end of the day, there are limitations, and we need to be prepared for that.

I hear you and I'm sorry for your losses as well. I still have several family members who are also "game over" if they get this.

My problem with the initial statement is along the lines of "I take responsibility for my own health - if I get COVID, I have no one to blame but myself". To me, that's like saying, "I'll just pirate the new DT album - I probably won't get caught anyway." Well, sure, maybe not a big deal when one person is like that. But when 40% (or more) of the people are like that...

 

[Stadler]

[quote author=Stadler link=topic=56501.msg2800168#msg2800168
So where is the line then?   Is it on you  and your family to decide "well, maybe I don't get to go to concerts", or is it on Government to make sure that every concert gets played and only the vaccinated and masked get to see them (note, I said GOVERNMENT, not the promoter or the band).

The Government being involved or not is not the same "zero sum" game for me. I personally would like to see actual data driving these kinds of decisions. Would it make sense to say "here are the types of events that can occur with X cases per 100,000/500,000/1,000,000"? Set rules for risk tolerance based on expert advise that we can all compromise and plan around. In the beginning, we heard people talk about doing things along these lines (my workplace also initially talked about reopening our in-office operations under this terminology). For some reason, that all stopped, and I have no idea why. [/quote]

I would actually have no problem with that.  I wouldn't LIKE it, but I don't have to like it and at least its factually driven, not what we have now which is a bunch of feelings, opinions, and "great" ideas (read: hunches) with little substance.

I think we're arguing semantics without having the language in front of us.   I'm not accusing you of being a victim, and I'm not saying we should do "nothing".   I'm saying that the victim culture REQUIRES that there be fault and that it be someone else.   I'm less arguing the "someone else" as I am the "that there is fault to begin with".  I feel bad for you and your family.  I'm sensitive to that.  My uncle died of COVID and if my dad gets it, it's likely game over (he lives in Florida, by the way).  I get the need to want everything to be as perfect as it can be, but at the end of the day, there are limitations, and we need to be prepared for that.

I hear you and I'm sorry for your losses as well. I still have several family members who are also "game over" if they get this.

My problem with the initial statement is along the lines of "I take responsibility for my own health - if I get COVID, I have no one to blame but myself". To me, that's like saying, "I'll just pirate the new DT album - I probably won't get caught anyway." Well, sure, maybe not a big deal when one person is like that. But when 40% (or more) of the people are like that...

I appreciate your kind words, and here's hoping both our families get out of this unscathed.   

But here's the semantics: it's not either/or.   I'm that way no matter what; I'm that guy in Monty Python, "just a flesh wound".  That's not to say that other people don't have responsibilities.  That's not to say that we ALL don't have obligations and duties to meet.  That's not to say I'm going to take the fall for something clearly caused by someone else.   But there's a philosophy; where are you going to look first?   And what are you going to do if the world doesn't buck to your will?   What will happen if there's a conflict of wills or conflict of rights between those that think differently?   We are in a representative democratic republic, and all 330 million people have an equal say more or less, at least when it comes to the fundamental rights.   Sometimes those rights clash; sometimes it's not really 'rights' that clash, but your 'rights' versus my 'privileges' (and vice versa).   There are people in this world, simply put, that once their PRIVILEGES are infringed - not even rights, but their privileges (that is to say, those things that we want, that are nice to have, but we can't demand) - they feel the world owes them something and everyone else needs to buck up and get with the program. 

[ProfessorPeart]

Which 2 states Governors have been in the news ad nauseum regarding their anti-covid mandate mantra's? Which 2 states now have the highest daily death totals by a 3 to 1 average? Not a hard question.

As preparation for further grim developments, Texas has requested five mortuary trailers from the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Texas trails only Florida among states with the most COVID deaths a day, both averaging more than 160. No other state is above 50.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/08/17/covid-booster-shots-vaccinations-mask-mandates-biden-administration/8160102002/

Oh, and one of those Governors now has Covid, got a 3rd vaccine dose and is also getting monoclonal antibody treatments.

Per @NBCNews: “@GovAbbott has told people he received a third booster dose of the vaccine, two sources told NBC News.

“The Governor will isolate in the Governor’s Mansion and continue to test daily. Governor Abbott is receiving Regeneron’s monoclonal antibody treatment,” the statement read.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-gov-greg-abbott-who-opposes-vaccine-and-mask-mandates-tests-positive-for-covid-19-211349823.html

Meanwhile, seeing what seems like near constant school outbreak stories. They can't even make it a week without a major outbreak. Think I saw today about a district in California that was testing its students and came up with 3600 positive cases. Yeah, looking forward to school starting tomorrow.

[cramx3]

Really good article on the numbers from Isreal and how people are misinterpreting the results of the Pfizer vaccine's efficacy

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated

The bottom line is there is very strong evidence that the vaccines have high efficacy protecting against severe disease, even for Delta, and even in these Israeli data that on the surface appear to suggest the Pfizer vaccine might have waning efficacy.  This is clearly evident if the data are analyzed carefully, and agrees with all other published results to date from other countries.

[lonestar]

First week, local high school had 15 cases. This is gonna be interesting.

[Grappler]

I'm a little nervous for my daughter to start first grade next week. Last year, half of the kids were remote.  She had a few colds, but tested negative for covid each time.  This year, there is no remote option and all kids have to be in school.  Knowing how parents just shuttle their sick kids off to school and how lax a lot of them are at home with masks and covid, I think we'll see more positive cases in school.  There weren't too many last spring.

At least our school district is requiring masks while indoors.  One of the board members is very far-right and I've been screen-shotting some of the bullshit that I find online in comment sections in case I ever need it.  Thank goodness he's in the minority on the board.

[Stadler]

We just had our orientation this morning.  Masks are required in Connecticut in K through 12, and my stepson is very good about wearing his, so I think the risk is there but outweighed by the benefit of actually learning.  He didn't learn squat remote last year.  It's basically a lost year for him, and - from what I'm gathering - most other students of his age.

[Harmony]

I'm curious about testing IN schools.  For those of you with school age kids, if they show symptoms at school, did you as parents need to sign a release allowing them to be rapid tested?

If so, who does that testing?  In our local area school nurses went away a decade ago.  And by that I mean, there is one RN to about a dozen schools.

I'm all for testing anyone with symptoms but I don't want some secretary or some coach shoving a q-tip up inside a squirmy child's nose.  Have your districts sent out guidance on how this will be handled and what will happen if a test turns out positive - with regard to quarantine?

[Grappler]

I'm curious about testing IN schools.  For those of you with school age kids, if they show symptoms at school, did you as parents need to sign a release allowing them to be rapid tested?

If so, who does that testing?  In our local area school nurses went away a decade ago.  And by that I mean, there is one RN to about a dozen schools.

I'm all for testing anyone with symptoms but I don't want some secretary or some coach shoving a q-tip up inside a squirmy child's nose.  Have your districts sent out guidance on how this will be handled and what will happen if a test turns out positive - with regard to quarantine?

I just received an email a minute ago regarding this.  We will have to sign a release form for in-school rapid PCR testing.  We have a school nurse.

If a kid in school tests positive, potential exposed kids (determined to be in close contact with the positive case) have the following options:

1.  If a parent does not sign the release, then the student has to quarantine at home for 7-14 days and do remote school.  I would guess that a negative test will be required to come back.

2.  Take saliva-based rapid tests at regular intervals (1 day, 3 days, 5 days, 7 days) and do not have to quarantine at home.  The kid just spits into a test tube and assuming they remain negative, can remain in school.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm curious about testing IN schools.  For those of you with school age kids, if they show symptoms at school, did you as parents need to sign a release allowing them to be rapid tested?

If so, who does that testing?  In our local area school nurses went away a decade ago.  And by that I mean, there is one RN to about a dozen schools.

I'm all for testing anyone with symptoms but I don't want some secretary or some coach shoving a q-tip up inside a squirmy child's nose.  Have your districts sent out guidance on how this will be handled and what will happen if a test turns out positive - with regard to quarantine?

There's a testing location here that does self-administered tests. You do it yourself and place it in the baggy where the workers grab it with those claw hand extender things and place it in a bucket (looked like a trash can with the toxic logo orange trash bag).

This women parked on the side and gave her kid the tests.

I would figure they would be capable to do something like this.

[bosk1]

I feel for those with younger kids or kids that cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons.  Thankfully, we are somewhat fortunate in the timing of all of this in that we only have one under 12 (and thus only one unvaccinated), and she is home schooled. 

[Harmony]

What-the-actual-fuck?  When I first saw this photo I thought it was fake.  Apparently I'm wrong.

A photo circulating on social media shows COVID-19 patients lying on the floor of the antibody treatment clinic at the Jacksonville Public Library Downtown.

The photo shows a woman lying face-down on the library floor. She appears to be in distress. In the background, another person is also flat on the floor, being tended to by a loved one.

The photo was posted on Reddit around midday on Wednesday by user Suzieb2220, who wrote, “My husband (vaccinated, but positive) has been waiting 2+ hours for monoclonal therapy and he says he has never seen people so sick. Moaning, crying, unable to move.”

Reached Thursday afternoon, Louie Lopez, who took the photo, said the imagine was more dramatic in person. "The picture doesn't convey the sounds that I was hearing. People were in pain." Lopez said the nurses were friendly and were doing their best, and the patients were all friendly, despite the two-hour waits they were suffering, often while ill. Some patients shared the limited chairs that were available.

Lopez said that he's beginning to feeling better, and hasn't had a migraine for the first time in eight days.

"It seems really odd that would have a bunch of really sick people in a library waiting for an injection when then need medical treatment," said Dr. Sunil Joshi, president of the Duval County Medical Society Foundation. "This is approved or people who have mild to moderate symptoms. If they have symptoms where their oxygen is low or their blood pressure is low, they need to be seen in the hospital."

A city of Jacksonville spokesperson confirmed the photo is of the Jacksonville clinic, and told WJCT News wheelchairs are offered at the site, but at the time the photo was taken, they were all filled by other patients.

“In order to support the State of Florida in their efforts to provide this important treatment (that they’ve contracted out to CDR Maguire), [Jacksonville Fire and Rescue Department] and [The City of Jacksonville] are providing triple the number of wheelchairs, additional seating for those waiting in line and signage that directs patients to alert someone if they need any type of assistance,” said spokeswoman Nikki Kimbleton.

“This treatment is meant to keep people OUT of the hospital and is designed for those early on in their COVID-19 diagnosis or for those who believe they have been exposed to COVID,” Kimbleton said. “Individuals with severe symptoms should contact a medical professional for guidance on the proper treatment for their situation.”

Regeneron, a monoclonal antibody treatment, can help reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 if it’s administered shortly after exposure to the virus, but it’s less helpful once symptoms progress. It can also limit the body’s ability to fight future COVID infection and make vaccines less effective, according to its manufacturer.

Gov. Ron DeSantis visited Jacksonville last Thursday to promote the clinic, saying the Regeneron “strike teams” deployed across the state were “the best thing we can do” to reduce hospitalizations. “So I want everybody to know that this is an important way to be able to protect yourself in the event that you are infected,” he said.

The clinic was originally sited in a Florida Department of Emergency Management trailer on Bay Street, and was moved to the library Conference Center on August 16.

A city of Jacksonville employee told WJCT News the process of setting up the library site felt rushed from the beginning. The employee, who was not authorized to speak to the media, asked to remain anonymous.

“The fact that there seemed to have been no forward thought or planning that went into this, it was just, ‘The governor said so, so we’re going to do it,’ kind of a thing. It raised a lot of alarms,” the employee said.

The Jacksonville clinic has given out 372 doses since it opened August 12, according to the city.

At last count, Baptist Health Jacksonville reported 535 COVID patients, including 125 in the ICU and 15 children. WJCT News Partner News4Jax reports Duval County is averaging 123 COVID-19 hospitalizations per 100,000 people, meaning 1 out of every 813 Jaxsons is hospitalized with the viral infection.

https://news.wjct.org/post/photo-shows-jacksonville-regeneron-clinic-overburdened-covid-patients

[King Postwhore]

Well, Florida and Texas are state fighting against precautions so it's fitting unfortunately to see this. 

[jingle.boy]

Just so I have this straight. COVID positive individuals are getting Regeneron injections instead of going to a hospital?  Assuming some of these people are unvax’d, where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??

[King Postwhore]

Seems like bullshit to me Chad. Those maniacs wouldn't put anything in their bodies to save them.

[Stadler]

Just so I have this straight. COVID positive individuals are getting Regeneron injections instead of going to a hospital?  Assuming some of these people are unvax’d, where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??

From the article:
"“My husband (vaccinated, but positive) has been waiting 2+ hours..." "

Let's not assume.

[jingle.boy]

Just so I have this straight. COVID positive individuals are getting Regeneron injections instead of going to a hospital?  Assuming some of these people are unvax’d, where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??

From the article:
"“My husband (vaccinated, but positive) has been waiting 2+ hours..." "

Let's not assume.

Let's also not assume 1 example means all are vaccinated. 

Also, I have an Economics degree... assumptions is what we do.  Given the vax rate in Florida, it's reasonable to assume about 50% of the people attending this clinic are vax'd, and 39% are fully unvax'd.

[Stadler]

I guess, but you know then that everything that follows is only as good as the level of the assumptions. Your assumption may be accurate, but it flies in the face of the ONE data point we DO have.   And it's not even that; I think it's fair to assume SOME percentage of those there are unvaccinated (about 50% of Floridians are not fully vaxx'd).   I dunno; I just bristle at the constant judgment.  No vax:  dumb ass piece of shit that gets whatever is coming to them, including the mocking derision of all of us perfect people here.  Because none of us are EVER hypocritical, and we would NEVER make personal decisions that seem to be at odds, amiright?

I have fam in Florida.  It's real shit.  My brother is not vaxx'd.  I can't tell you what would push him over the edge, but he's not stupid (four year college degree), he's not a "Trump-er!", he's not deplorable, he's not a racist asshole, he's not ANY of the stereotypes.   I suspect I know what/why it is (and it's a logical if not reasonable reason rooted in the emotion of fear), but I don't know for certain, and I'm not going to browbeat him into something he doesn't want to do.  I HAVE said "look, you be you, but when you visit our parents, be smart.  it's not YOUR rules, it's THEIR rules and honor that."   And he does.

[jingle.boy]

Pleas let me know which part of my post was judgmental.

[Stadler]

Pleas let me know which part of my post was judgmental.

"where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??"

There's no implication of hypocrisy here?  The double "??" isn't at all meant to point fingers?   C'mon.  There are countless posts here, in this thread (and the other one) doing just that.  We are not a logical species.  You're an economist; you know the age-old debate about "the rational man".   We're not.  We diet and we smoke.   We exercise and we drive fast.  We eat organic and drink alcohol.   I've cited the reference so many times I should get royalties at this point: "How Risky Is It?" by Dave Ropeik.  The forward is exactly about this; a woman fighting, in court, to get her town to remediate a library because of TRACE amounts of a known carcinogen, and in the break of the hearing she chain smoked cigarettes outside the meeting room.  Wha??

If you legit are saying there's absolutely zero judgment there, then my bad, you have my apologies, but I take that with a grain of salt.

[jingle.boy]

When I made the post, I'd just read some posts about vaccine hesitancy and the new / experimental nature of the vaccines, hence my comments in that direction.

Regardless, I was just asking where the logic was.  No castigation.  No implication.  No imputation.  Can someone help me understand the logic?  Sincere question.

At a macro level, I don't see where there is logic in actively avoiding some manner of preventative measure, only to take an equal or greater reactive measure.  Whether it's COVID related, some other form of health measure (taking insulin instead of waiting to go blind or lose a limb), car/house maintenance (replace your shingles before the roof springs a leak and floods your house), whatever.  What's the old saying .... an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

That's all man.

[Stadler]

Okay fair enough.  But you already know the answer to that.   

[cramx3]

If those people are really sick (and I'm making an assumption, someone sleeping on the floor because there are no chairs and a long wait) then they should be in the hospital and should not be eligible for the regeneron therapy (from my understanding).  If that's the case, it kind of just goes along with a lot of my thoughts through all this "people really have no understanding of what's going on" and they only have themselves to blame.  This is not new, we've been living in this pandemic for so long now, it amazes me that some people are completely clueless.

[Harmony]

For me the issue in Floriduh is about sending sick people to a fucking library to get a medication and not being well prepared to treat folks who may collapse in the lobby of the building with medically trained personnel and necessary equipment like wheelchairs and oxygen.

Oh wait - I guess all the medically trained personnel are needed to take care of sick people in hospitals in the ERs and ICUs. 

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?   

Has anyone looked into which politicians are getting rich off of Regeneron yet? 

[Harmony]

An update on my friend in Florida and her son:

Hi, all! I realized I haven't updated everyone in a while. Time goes by quickly and slowly simultaneously. COVID is awful. We felt better for about 6 hours and Sebastian's fever broke, and then we felt like we got hit with a bag of bricks and his fever came back (low-grade most of the time now though, 99-101). We get new, different symptoms from one day to the next. We currently are having this weird burning sensation in our noses and esophaguses, and the exhaustion continues. The coughing is annoying for me because it hurts so bad deep in my chest. Sebastian's coughing has improved, which I attribute to the nebulizer, which seems to work wonders for him. We've gone through a ton of water and Gatorade, and Bridgette is dropping off more later today. You amazing people have made things so much easier for us with your COVID gifts (Powerade freezer pops, lunch, dinner, kids holding signs that say "Hugs" outside our door, soup, gift cards for food), and lots of messages of love and well wishes. The meal train has been a lifesaver! I didn't realize how much energy cooking was using until I didn't have to do it. ❤️🙏 We're tired of being exhausted and sick, but we know we'll pull through. You all have been incredible and we are so lucky to have you in our lives! Please know how very much we appreciate you!

***Keep in mind, this mom was fully vaccinated.  Imagine if she wasn't.

I remember being a bit anxious about the side effects from the 2nd Covid shot.  I feel incredibly stupid about that after reading this.  I can't WAIT to get my booster in October.

Thanks to those of you who wished this little guy well and kept them in your thoughts and prayers.

[ProfessorPeart]

Just when you thought it coudn't get weirder and more bizarre.

https://www.insider.com/man-storms-walmart-to-put-staff-on-notice-vaccine-shots-2021-8

'Vaccine police' threatens to hang pharmacist's for violating the Nuremberg Code. Says 45,000 dropped dead within 3 days of receiving the vaccine.

 

[lonestar]

FDA gives full approval to Pfizer Vax.

[Lonk]

Just when you thought it coudn't get weirder and more bizarre.

https://www.insider.com/man-storms-walmart-to-put-staff-on-notice-vaccine-shots-2021-8

'Vaccine police' threatens to hang pharmacist's for violating the Nuremberg Code. Says 45,000 dropped dead within 3 days of receiving the vaccine.

 

"We're going to let them know that 45,000 people within three days of receiving the vaccine dropped dead. And if they give one more vaccine after today, after being put on notice, then they can be hung up, and they can be executed."

"I'm not trying to give you any fear and intimidation," Key told a staff member in the video. "I'm just letting you guys know that if you continue to do this, that you guys will be held accountable."

 

FDA gives full approval to Pfizer Vax.

I'm so happy with this, let's just hope it is enough (and not too late).

[jingle.boy]

I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.

[XJDenton]

I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.

I see what you did there.

[lonestar]

I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.

Neither do I, but it should be interesting to see what they come up with as their next excuse not to get vaxxed

[King Postwhore]

I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.

Agreed. Sad to say.

[Lonk]

They mentioned on the news this morning that based on a poll (we all know how accurate those are), 3/10 unvaccinated people will get the vaccine once fully approved by the FDA.