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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: r0cken on November 24, 2012, 01:31:50 AM
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Hope I'm not breaking any rules here. Just wondered about some aspects of buying vs. pirating. Now, I'm not from the US and I've heard that over there it's really getting more difficult to download pirated material (correct me if I'm wrong). Different countries have different laws and different views on the subject. There's also the issue of iTunes not being available everywhere in the world, while shipping costs of physical media is sometimes outrageous. So it's different for everybody.
So general questions (and lets try to leave DT out of the statistic, cause fans tend to go crazy over buying everything from their favorite band):
How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
I don't sort it out, I buy an album if I really want it, but I'm rather selective about what I buy.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
If I want to listen to a specific song, I can do it on youtube. But if I can't afford a CD then I don't buy it, just like anything else.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Usually if it's on Itunes, then I can sample it before I buy it. Or else more generally the band releases a single on youtube and I check that out instead.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical disks, but I keep them also on my Ipod. There's only a few albums I downloaded on Itunes without buying the CD and that was because the physical CD was stupidly expensive.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Why should it? I don't consider how rich other companies are when buying stuff, I still don't steal it. However if it's a lesser known artist that I really like, I might make more of an effort to buy directly from them and not places like Amazon.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
If it's by a band I like, then yes.
I treat CD's like any other thing. If I can afford them, I buy them. If not, I don't. If I don't really need it or want it that much, I don't buy it. I don't see why albums are treated like some special thing that people have a right to have. They're just like any other possible thing I can buy, aside from essentials like food and water cause you might actually need to steal those in order to survive if you can't afford them.
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Alright, I'll answer myself to start.
I purchase about 3-5 albums a year. Not a lot.
I pirate the rest.
Usually must hear it before I buy, unless it's a band I really love.
Prefer digital, no place to hold all the plastic. Never listen to the physical CDs, even if I buy them.
I admit, I prefer to support the struggling artist.
I don't buy albums that are only "okay", even if I keep the pirated copy.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
No specific number, but I usually won't go over 2 a paycheck as a rule of thumb.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I use spotify.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Spotify again, or Youtube or some other medium to sample the stuff, especially new bands.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Both, physical and Amazon mp3s.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Nope, I actually have yet to pirate a single album.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
No, but I do whim purchases at my local record store, which is HUGE. Sometimes I get lucky, sometimes I waste a few bucks(it's a new/used store, lots of stuff under 5$)
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
This is really hard to answer. I buy somewhere around 10 CDs and 5-6 Vinyl per month or so. Some months more, some less. I bought my turntable earlier this year (in February I believe) and have around 40 Vinyl now. So I've bought quite a bit.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I pretty much download everything I am interested in. If I really like what I'm hearing, then I will buy the music. As simple as that really. I think one of the advantages of downloading is that I can hear something first, and then buy it. I couldn't possibly afford buying lots of albums without knowing anything about them first, because it would be quite a risk.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Yeah pretty much. I tend to listen through an album 4-5 times before buying it.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical. Nothing beats holding a vinyl in my hands, or a CD for that matter. Digital is really boring in comparison. I use it because it's simple and easy, but I prefer Vinyl or CDs.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Not at all. I buy music that I like, and that includes both bigger bands which I can find in any store, and smaller bands where I've had to order their CDs through Bandcamp and similar. However, I do get a "better" feeling when I buy something from a smaller artist, because they're often very friendly and sometimes even sign the CD or send a little note, and I get a good feeling about helping out a smaller artist who doesn't have a pile of money.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Well this is hard to say. I'd say sometimes yeah, sometimes no. For example, I did buy Epicloud with Devin Townsend which I think was a fairly average album. It's not bad, but I don't think it plays in the same league as his best stuff, and I don't see myself listening to it that often. But it's still a solid album and I don't hate myself for buying it.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
- Depends, sometimes I'll go out and buy music when I need something I've not heard before.
- I tend to just browse in a shop and pick up whatever seems interesting (today I picked up a The Enid album, I've never heard the band before, but this rules hard)
- I'm vastly in preference of physicals. I love reading through the liners and looking at the art.
- Edit: misunderstood this question. I do not pirate things. I like buying them and then basking in their immense beauty (or something like that).
- Sometimes I will grow to like them, sometimes I may not play them more than once a year, but it was worth getting them anyway, otherwise I wouldn't have found this out.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
I don't dare to answer as it varies so much. Sometimes I buy way too many albums in a short period of time, and then sometimes I don't buy anything at all in a long time.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Spotify is a good friend of mine. I never pirate anything, so if I want an album, I buy it. I don't think that I'm ever in a situation where I really couldn't 'afford' an album I really want.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
I do listen to legal samples, if such are available. Basically I wouldn't like to spoil too much of the album to me beforehand, so sometimes I even avoid listening to complete songs, even if they were officially published by the artist.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
This is something I'm not so sure about. I mentioned Spotify earlier in my message, and that is something I'm really unsure about. I love the fact that Spotify allows me to listen to nine hours of free music in a month. That is a truly amazing way to discover all kinds of cool stuff. However, some people pay for the Spotify Premium which allows unlimited listening etc and say that's all the music they need. I find it somehow scary that you pay for a service which gives you music, but when you stop paying for it, you end up having no music at all. Even though the service is really cheap, I prefer using my money to buy actual albums.
It is a bit more complicated if we compare iTunes with buying physical albums. When we are talking about new albums, I prefer buying the album from iTunes for the half of the price of the CD version. I don't find the physical copy especially useful as I usually just take a look at it and then let it rest in my shelf. I sometimes do wonder what does owning an album mean. At least here it is perfectly okay and legal to borrow a CD from the library and rip it. After that I have the AAC files on my computer for the rest of my life, just as if I had bought the album from the iTunes. However, of course I can't say that I 'own' the albums I've borrowed from the library, even though there's no real difference to buying it from the iTunes. So, my real moral dilemma here is that I think that if I borrow and rip an album from the library, like it and listen to it very much, it would be perfectly reasonable to actually buy the album. If I bought it from the iTunes, I would get nothing I didn't have before. That kind of spoils the idea of owning, even though I wouldn't call myself a collector at all.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Well as I don't pirate at all, not really. I buy music that sounds good, it's as simple as that.What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
I don't really understand the concept of 'sorta' liking an album. If I really like an album, I buy it. If I don't like, I don't buy it. Of course this also depends on the price of the album. As I mostly discover new music with Spotify these days, I usually buy the album if I find myself wasting too much of my Spotify time to listen to the same album. But really, I don't understand people who say that they pirate albums as they wouldn't buy them anyway. Why do you have to listen to them then...?
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Very glad someone started this topic :tup
How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
My pay grade doesn't allow me to buy an unlimited amount of albums and singles, so I restrict myself to buying maybe 3-6 albums/DVDs per year. For now, I'm totally planning to buy the upcoming DT and Maiden and FC DVDs, as well as their albums.... so, basically I tend to buy releases from my favorite artists and download the rest.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I pirate. Until last year I had the habit of simple not listening to but my small amount of music started making me frustrated. Then I started downloading what Last.FM and my friends recommended me and built a nice stock of albums. I've had the opportunity to listen to some unique artists and visit their concerts (FC, Accept, Ensiferum, Laibach, Muse, The Aristocrats, some local bands,....) which I most likely wouldn't have done if I hadn't listened to some of their albums previously.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
When I download the music, I have it. It doesn't make sense for me to buy a CD to get something I already own, especially if there are bills to be paid.....
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
I like to have physical media from my favorite artists, such as Rammstein, DT, IM, Slayer,.... everything new that they'll release in the future I'll most likely buy. But I certainly won't go and buy all the old DT albums because when I started listening to them, friends gave me their collection of DT albums and I'm not that kind of fanboy that needs to have all of their albums on a shelf to prove a point.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
It depends on how much I like the band, but also on the band's attitude towards selling records. For instance, I listen to a great Croatian nu metal band who has played on Wacken last year. I'd totally support them by buying their albums, but then I found out that they shared their releases among most of their friends and fans from their hometown, so I concluded they don't seem to be that interested in making money by selling their albums and that I would be some sort of "silly" being one of the maybe 5% who bought their releases instead of just downloading them.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Certainly not, although there's always the gamble that when I buy albums from my favorite bands I'll score an album which I won't like but up to now this hasn't happened.
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I don't really understand the concept of 'sorta' liking an album.
That would be an album that is pleasant but you only listen to from time to time, as opposed to something absolutely orgasmic that you can't let go of for months.
By the way, interesting results so far. I wonder whether the Americans really that morally conscious and law abiding, or is it unique to a specific group of people (this forum/music lovers in general/adults with steady income)...
Because it contradicts certain studies, this one (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19599527) for example, that recently showed that the US is the most pirating country in the world (worldwide chart near the bottom).
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I'm going to give my answers from 2012...
How many albums did I buy in 2012?
One. The 2nd Law, by Muse.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I listened to Flying Colors on Spotify, an ad-funded legal streaming service. Extensively. Additionally, friend sent me Les Fleurs du Mal, by Therion, which I listened to once. The same friend also sent me Epicloud, by Devin Townsend, which I haven't listened to at all. This is my entire year in music.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
No, I download if someone else wants me to sample the music before I buy.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
I prefer physical media, but it's not a luxury I can really afford. I'll buy bits and pieces in digital whenever necessary.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Again, I don't really have the luxury to discriminate. My main priority is buying for me. On top of that, I will have fewer qualms downloading from an artist who's on the record as being cool with it (say, Devin Townsend) than an artist who's not. That said, I don't think not hearing a record is going to make me any more likely to find money to spend on it, so while I mostly make do without, it's not like I'm staying awake at night thinking, "I hope Therion doesn't mind."
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
I don't buy albums I really, really like - "sorta" never got a look in. Downloads aren't my way of discovering new bands, the only time I download something is if a friend wants to show one to me. Copyright law states that it's not really theirs to show, which is fair, but at the same time, the worst case scenario is that I listen to it and then carry on with my life. I'm not buying less music because it's being sent direct to my hard drive.
The music industry is fuelled by free samples, though. Musicians dream of radio play, corporations used to illegally bribe radio stations into playing their artists' songs, because the only way anyone finds out they like a band is by listening to that band. Does that justify a world where everyone downloads music by the gallon? I don't think so. And can the public be trusted to pirate responsibly? Not really. But when you asked about whether it matters to me whether the artist's rich or poor, I think that piracy's most noble outcome is that of a universal equaliser.
Because it levels the playing field. Hungarian Folk-Metal Band #143's audiences wouldn't suddenly become any bigger if file-sharing was obliterated. And even if someone who pirates a CD never buys that CD - the worst case scenario, as I said, is that they listen to it once and move on, but if they grow to like the band, they will find ways to talk about it.
Humans are social animals, and a music fan will discuss a band they like, and namedrop it, and recommend it, and bore their friends' tits off, and they will often become part of a chain. And in that way, the information travels across the world. Some people will download it, and those people will tell friends and even more people will download it, and as the music spiders its way across the surface of the planet, the chance that someone is finally going to decide they have to buy the album only gets greater. These aren't people who would've otherwise looked at the CD cover and gone "Yes, let's buy the discography." Very few of them would've seen the CD cover at all, not living in the Hungarian village of Blockelsplatt where Folk-Metal Band #143 do all their gigs. They are, perhaps, people who could just as well have streamed the album over Spotify, downloaded the sampler from the band's official website, people who've been a little greedy - but every time someone in Spain, Canada, Puerto Rico logs onto Amazon and buys Hungarian Folk-Metal Band #143's new album, I don't think that's twenty-three potential sales lost, I think that's a sale gained, and one that could never have happened before the information age.
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There's also the issue of iTunes not being available everywhere in the world, while shipping costs of physical media is sometimes outrageous. So it's different for everybody.
Yeah, I encountered this while I was in HK. Some places in the world have no digital music stores, as well as no good record stores. So, if you really want to buy something, you've got no choice but to pay double in shipping. Plus, you never get things the day they came out. I always hated that. I don't blame anyone in Hong Kong or elsewhere who pirates due to lack of reasonable other options.
How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
It depends. At "new" price? 0-1 per month.
Digital albums that are set at a low price($6.99-ish)? 0-1 per month.
And usually I make at least one run to a second hand record store each month, coming away with usually 1 or 2 CDs. So I'd say I spend about $20-30 on new music each month.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
While I was living in Hong Kong? Usually, I tried to control myself and just not listen to it. Now that I'm back in the states, it's SPOTIFY for most new things I-want-to-hear-but-can't-afford all the way.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Nope. Spotify!
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Digital, if it's considerably cheaper. If the digital version is only cheaper by like a dollar, though, I'll go with the physical one.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
No, not really. In Hong Kong I only bought stuff from "rich" bands because that's all record stores carried usually.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Sometimes. I love Dylan, and while he certainly has more than a few terrible albums, I buy them when I see them anyway, for collectionist purposes. I've been that way for a few other bands, too.
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Now, I'm not from the US and I've heard that over there it's really getting more difficult to download pirated material (correct me if I'm wrong). You're wrong.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Maybe 10 a year. I don't keep track, but my CD buying has dropped considerably.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I wont lie, I pirate it, but as soon as I can afford it, I definitely buy.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Yes. I've wasted too much money buying on a whim.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical for my collection, and digital for on the go. I love my CD collection.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Doesn't matter. If they make music that appeals to my ears, they can have my money.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
If they're by my favorite bands, mostly. There are a few of my favorite bands that have gaps in their discography. Also, if I want it for my collection, and it's a mediocre album, I'll look for it used. While the artist doesn't get any money from that, I at least save some money rather than paying full price for crap.
Some of my favorite bands and albums I discovered by pirating. It's still wrong, but I always shell out the cash if I like the music. Albums I don't like are deleted forever and forgot about.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Too many, a lot of my albums are bought because I like a song off it, which is why I have a lot of unlistened to stuff.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Youtube is a fine thing, I usually wait or beg mummy, mummy is good to Adam.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
No, just YouTube
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Buying through iTunes is awesome since you effectively have a CD since you can download wherever you are in the world, but otherwise either is good.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Not really, if I like the music I like the music, nothing you can do if you don't like the lesser known act.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Yes... As I said before I have lots of unlistened to stuff in my library, which annoys me sometimes.
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So general questions (and lets try to leave DT out of the statistic, cause fans tend to go crazy over buying everything from their favorite band)
I am pretty sure that DT is not the favorite band of the majority here; they aren't my favorite.
Anyway...
How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
It all depends on how many CDs come out a year that I like and/or want to hear.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I can always afford to buy something I really want to hear. :biggrin:
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
No, but if it is a band or album that a friend or my brother already has, they will sometimes rip it to a CD or give me the mp3 files to check out first.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
I used to always say physical media, but my CD collection is now so big, that I usually only buy the actual CDs by my favorites, and then I'll buy the digital files of other bands.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
No.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
How can I know if I like them until I buy them and hear them? ;)
But in the cases of hearing them beforehand (like, when I get a copy from my brother, for example, as mentioned above), I am a lot less likely to buy it if I don't love it. He gave me a copy of the new GY!BE CD, and while I like it, I don't love it, so I haven't gone out of my way to buy my own copy.
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I am pretty sure that DT is not the favorite band of the majority here; they aren't my favorite.
Um...
I mean, I'm also not here for the DT discussion (although they are one of my favorite bands), but I would assume...
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Less than five. My money usually goes toward other things. Buying CD's is zero percent correlated with my ability to hear music.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Spotify, Youtube, or get it from friends.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Not really. If I'm buying a CD, it's for a band like Dream Theater that I already know I like enough to give money to.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Digital. Physical media is worth nothing to me beyond its sentimental value. I have over 20,000 songs on my computer, and the millions available to me on Spotify and Youtube. The percentage of those songs I feel strongly enough about to buy on CD is infinitesimally small.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
No.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
No. If I can buy two CD's I can hear for free or new camera equipment, which do you think I'm going to buy?
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No. If I can buy two CD's I can hear for free or new camera equipment, which do you think I'm going to buy?
This is a really good point, and something I often question, but I still go for the CDs over other important stuff 90% of the time...
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
It depends. Whatever I buy digitally, I usually also buy a copy of it as well on disc. Usually. I buy and download usually 5 or 6 cds each month. I have 27,412 songs on iTunes as one example right now.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I don't have this problem. I buy what I want. I have never pirated anything. If I didn't have the money I would find other "legal" means to obtain it.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Depends. When samples are available I'll usually listen to them.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Both. CD's, iTunes, Amazon. My amazon collection has grown a lot this year. I have over 7,000 songs there.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
No.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Again...it depends. I have bought albums only becuase of one or two songs that I've heard and enjoy.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Maybe three or four.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Just don't listen to it.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
No. But I will use a legal source (youtube or grooveshark). Merely watching an illegally-uploaded youtube video isn't illegal.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical but digital is useful.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
No.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Usually no
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
It really depends. Recently I've been buying a lot of music, but on average 5-10 a month (including legal downloads). I also download a shitload of music that artists upload for free on Bandcamp, along with some bootlegs and rare out of print stuff.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I stream it, either on Spotify, Youtube, Bandcamp, or a similar site.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
No, except for album leaks which I end up buying anyway.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
I prefer physical, but I legally download a lot of music because its cheaper and I can afford more albums that way (e.g. I literally just downloaded an album from Amazon for $4. A new physical copy would be $10 + shipping). I buy physical copies as often as possible though at record stores and concerts, and from certain artists/bands.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Doesn't matter since I buy my music, but I would feel much more guilty if I downloaded something from a very small, underground band versus The Beatles, for example.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
It all depends. If I stream something and like parts of it, and a download is available cheaply and legally, then I'll buy it. I only buy and listen to full albums so I'll never buy an individual track. Otherwise, I don't know if I "sorta" like it before I buy it because I don't download to sample, unless its a leak. If I download a leak then I'll always buy the album.
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Alright, alright, you've made your point. Topic can be closed. :hat
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By the way, interesting results so far. I wonder whether the Americans really that morally conscious and law abiding, or is it unique to a specific group of people (this forum/music lovers in general/adults with steady income)...
Because it contradicts certain studies, this one (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19599527) for example, that recently showed that the US is the most pirating country in the world (worldwide chart near the bottom).
I think what you're seeing here is that people who pirate music are less likely to speak up than people who buy music. It's still considered illegal and generally looked down upon, regardless of their individual mores, so the results will be skewed.
I am pretty sure that DT is not the favorite band of the majority here; they aren't my favorite.
Um...
I mean, I'm also not here for the DT discussion (although they are one of my favorite bands), but I would assume...
That's not a bad assumption. But this community has been around, in one form or another, for a long time. I've been here going on 15 years. During that time, Dream Theater has changed a lot, and so have most of the people here. There was definitely a time when DT was one of my favorite bands. Now, I'm not so sure. They've done some good stuff lately, but nothing in the past ten years has knocked me out like those first couple of albums.
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I don't have a set amount of how much music I buy but it's much less than I used to do to not having the time to invest in many bands like I used to. I buy albums that I want. I often pirate them to get the early release but I buy them when they come out. When I find a new band I often pirate an album to get to know them but I'll buy the albums afterwards if I like. I prefer digital these days as the physical just takes up too much space.
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I think what you're seeing here is that people who pirate music are less likely to speak up than people who buy music. It's still considered illegal and generally looked down upon, regardless of their individual mores, so the results will be skewed.
Why are they less likely to speak up? Someone above pointed out that I'm wrong in thinking it's more difficult for people in the US to download. By "difficult" I meant internet traffic being monitored and warning letters being sent out by copyright organizations.
So, are they afraid "to get caught" or are they afraid to be "looked down upon"?
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*Get's on high horse*
How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Around 70/year.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin Not an issue for me.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
I check out bands on youtube and the like.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
I prefer to own physical media, but I rip everything to digital for my iPod.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Nope, they all get my money.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
I buy albums from bands I never heard of and no one has recommended.
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r0ckon, keep in mind that rampant pirating of music seems to be a one-generational thing, so far. My parents generation didn't download music. My little brother's generation, from what I can tell, doesn't either.
It's really only one generation which decided music isn't worth paying for.
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Perpetual Change, everything changes through generations. It's not about the people of this or that generation, though. It's about technology, about economics and financial situation, about location in the world, and other things.
I loved music as a kid before I had internet or any money to spare. And we still shared and copied. We bought one CD and shared it between friends, we bought in second hand CD shops, we taped music from the TV(!), and we didn't care about the horrid quality. We were no audiophiles, we had crappy cassette players and crappy earphones, but we still enjoyed music, wanted more of it and we got it any way we could. And the record industries still didn't see much money from us.
So it's not really about one particular generation being greedy or amoral. It's just the nature of things. For most people (I believe), this picture sums it up (https://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/2009/090720-download-a-car.jpg) (disclaimer: not meant to offend).
If the young generation has affordable media available anytime they want, good for them, good for the economy of the country and good for the entertainment industry - maybe they are finally doing something right.
But if it wouldn't be affordable or available, those who want it, would get it anyway.
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It's not nearly that simple. Only people who are against it seem to want to simplfy it. "It's stealing, period" and "People who download have decided that it isn't worth paying for" are both gross oversimplifications of the dynamics involved.
I think what you're seeing here is that people who pirate music are less likely to speak up than people who buy music. It's still considered illegal and generally looked down upon, regardless of their individual mores, so the results will be skewed.
Why are they less likely to speak up? Someone above pointed out that I'm wrong in thinking it's more difficult for people in the US to download. By "difficult" I meant internet traffic being monitored and warning letters being sent out by copyright organizations.
So, are they afraid "to get caught" or are they afraid to be "looked down upon"?
I'm not afraid to get caught. I'm just tired of getting shit for something I do that I'm perfectly fine with doing, but which people who like to feel superior want to give me shit about. I've explained my reasons a hundred times, and regardless of how I phrase it, people say "Yeah, well you can justify it any way you want, but it's still wrong."
And now that it's been brought up, this thread will now turn into a shitfest about downloading music.
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I pay for Spotify Premium, which has eliminated almost all of my pirating ways. When Spotify doesn't have something I want, one of my friends usually does and he/she will share it with me. I haven't purchased physical or digital albums in over a year.
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So it's not really about one particular generation being greedy or amoral. It's just the nature of things. For most people (I believe), this picture sums it up (https://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/2009/090720-download-a-car.jpg) (disclaimer: not meant to offend).
Exactly, and while one generation slipped through, the next is perfectly happy to download digital music legitimately.
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I love that picture :lol
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I pay for Spotify Premium, which has eliminated almost all of my pirating ways. When Spotify doesn't have something I want, one of my friends usually does and he/she will share it with me. I haven't purchased physical or digital albums in over a year.
I think that's it. There's a sort of tug-of-war going on.
Consumers - particularly young, tech-savvy ones - would take one look at a CD priced around the £18.00 mark and go "Er, no." They're concerned with getting it as cheap as possible. But the record labels have margins to meet, people in umpteen different departments to pay plus the artists, they're not setting their prices high for fun, they're setting them high because they need to. Both have vested, and completely understandable, interests in paying opposite prices.
Do the fat cats at the labels need the enormous salaries they get? Not all of them, no. But equally, do the kids deserve to get all their music for free, no skin off anyone else's back? No, that's not fair, either. Services like Spotify then, finally, have provided a sort of middle ground. A nice, convenient mid-point which doesn't rob anyone, but helps pay the artists at the same time as making music accessible to everyone who wants to hear it.
I think piracy is becoming, and will become, less necessary as time goes on. Spotify, in particular, is a device that can help pay everyone who's worked so hard to make these songs happen, but also keeps culture as readily available as the pirates would, quite understandably, love to have it. People will still want to own music, and of them some people will still want the added value of a disc with a case and artwork (although the people who only tolerated it will move away from it) but it's starting to settle into a nice middle ground where you neither have to pay through your nose nor starve a musician's family if you want to love music. Power is starting to balance, and that's great.
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Bands nowadays know that money is made on touring, not album sales.
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Bands nowadays know that money is made on touring, not album sales.
This is true, however if a band isn't selling anything, then promoters have no reason to think they're worth booking.
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I pay for Spotify Premium, which has eliminated almost all of my pirating ways. When Spotify doesn't have something I want, one of my friends usually does and he/she will share it with me. I haven't purchased physical or digital albums in over a year.
I think that's it. There's a sort of tug-of-war going on.
Consumers - particularly young, tech-savvy ones - would take one look at a CD priced around the £18.00 mark and go "Er, no." They're concerned with getting it as cheap as possible. But the record labels have margins to meet, people in umpteen different departments to pay plus the artists, they're not setting their prices high for fun, they're setting them high because they need to. Both have vested, and completely understandable, interests in paying opposite prices.
Do the fat cats at the labels need the enormous salaries they get? Not all of them, no. But equally, do the kids deserve to get all their music for free, no skin off anyone else's back? No, that's not fair, either. Services like Spotify then, finally, have provided a sort of middle ground. A nice, convenient mid-point which doesn't rob anyone, but helps pay the artists at the same time as making music accessible to everyone who wants to hear it.
I think piracy is becoming, and will become, less necessary as time goes on. Spotify, in particular, is a device that can help pay everyone who's worked so hard to make these songs happen, but also keeps culture as readily available as the pirates would, quite understandably, love to have it. People will still want to own music, and of them some people will still want the added value of a disc with a case and artwork (although the people who only tolerated it will move away from it) but it's starting to settle into a nice middle ground where you neither have to pay through your nose nor starve a musician's family if you want to love music. Power is starting to balance, and that's great.
Building on Rob's post:
Looking at piracy as a moral issue is a bad idea. At best, you'll go nuts. At worst, you'll want to pass SOPA or be content with artists never making money.
Piracy was and still is about economics. People view music as having a certain worth. If you ask people to pay a price they think is worthwhile, they will pay. Spotify is worth the money, so I have it.
Bands nowadays know that money is made on touring, not album sales.
This is true, however if a band isn't selling anything, then promoters have no reason to think they're worth booking.
Yep.
Also, by making the "bands make no money from CD's" argument, you're creating a culture that accepts record labels/suits making all the money off an artist's labor as opposed to the artist. This is not okay.
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Building on Adami and Reapsta's posts...
Bands nowadays know that money is made on touring, not album sales.
They do need records to tout, though, they need to keep producing new music to play on those tours, and record labels are great for making that music happen. Sure, there are a few legacy bands to whom this doesn't apply as much - Bob Geldof could dine out for decades on I Don't Like Mondays - but largely, the albums and the tours will feed one another, a new album that sounds great will sell more tickets than one that doesn't, and just because the band doesn't get that much money from an album doesn't mean the people who produced it don't need payment for their part in keeping the band and the tours rolling like they should.
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r0ckon, keep in mind that rampant pirating of music seems to be a one-generational thing, so far. My parents generation didn't download music. My little brother's generation, from what I can tell, doesn't either.
It's really only one generation which decided music isn't worth paying for.
This is a fascinating point, which I haven't considered. I suppose we are past the point of rampant music sharing when $5/month will get you most music legally. I wonder if we'll see the point where movies go the same way. Too many competing interests right now, and they're all losing as a result of it.
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Bandcamp is a great idea for the upcoming new bands. You can stream and download for free, or for a price set by the band, or pay however much you want. Some even offer physical cds which is great for me.
I recently lost my itouch and dont plan on buying a new one, my brother has my laptop so my only music source are cds. I dont mind paying for it nor dont mind the price, as i'll buy a rare out of print for way more.
I do pirate but not a lot. If I had money id buy a lot more, but theirs more important things that come first. Services like Spotify and Youtube are great when i want to listen to music, pandora i use for discovering new bands.
It really depends on why your making music. As older bands still made it without much exposure, it was by being good and word of mouth. Because their is way too much music to listen to it all.
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Look at Steam and video games...
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Look at Steam and video games...
For games I prefer to buy digital, but for CDs, I usually don't buy the digital version if I can help it. Interesting how that works, because games and music are pretty much the same general thing in my eyes.
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I used to download all the time. I haven't in a while. I've purchased 300 songs on iTunes over the last year.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Not too many, but enough that I can keep expanding my musical horizons. I just bought a record player, so the world of vinyl and cassette have just opened up to me.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I might look up one track off of the album, but I like Spotify because the artists get paid for their work.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
See above. I'll usually only look up a track or two before I buy, but I like to be surprised when I get the album, for better or worse.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical, but I have all of my CD's ripped to my computer and then synced to my phone or MP3 player.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
People often say that they don't feel bad about illegal downloading because they see how people live on MTV Cribs. I think that when less money goes to the record company, it makes them less interested in finding new, "struggling, lesser known artists". As such, I pay for both well-known bands and lesser known bands. Of course, if the new artist isn't good, they just won't sell.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Sometimes, the album that you only sorta like turns out to be one of your favorites. Shadow Gallery's Room V is a great example of an album that I only got because it was in a Name-Your-Own-Price bin at the record store. I had only heard of it from a recommendation. I got it, and I was amazed.
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Services like Spotify then, finally, have provided a sort of middle ground. A nice, convenient mid-point which doesn't rob anyone, but helps pay the artists
I've read (https://thetrichordist.com/2012/04/30/spotify-is-not-good-for-you-complete-post/) the sums the artists get from Spotify are ridiculously low. Only the really popular artists can benefit from it, the smaller bands would make much more money selling the actual CD on their website or at a concert. So I'm not sure about how good it is really for the artist. Good for discovering one, I suppose, but it won't pay his bills.
This is true, however if a band isn't selling anything, then promoters have no reason to think they're worth booking.
The internet is the best promotion tool in this age. It's word of mouth times million. Labels, promoters - they are all dinosaurs. They will be extinct, as new business models are taking over.
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Building on Adami and Reapsta's posts...Bands nowadays know that money is made on touring, not album sales.
They do need records to tout, though, they need to keep producing new music to play on those tours, and record labels are great for making that music happen. Sure, there are a few legacy bands to whom this doesn't apply as much - Bob Geldof could dine out for decades on I Don't Like Mondays - but largely, the albums and the tours will feed one another, a new album that sounds great will sell more tickets than one that doesn't, and just because the band doesn't get that much money from an album doesn't mean the people who produced it don't need payment for their part in keeping the band and the tours rolling like they should.
Not really. An upcoming band needs to play live to stay alive. Its good as a band to have many songs in your repertoire before you announce yourself as one. In a way thinking back to the olden days before internet.
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The real pisser is that while buying directly from the artist is always a great option, as it supports them more than buying from amazon or iTunes, but artists who offer that option often seem to jack the prices way up. It's like they say:
-You can buy my CD at amazon for $12.99, with free shipping.
Or
-You can buy my CD directly from me for $17.99, plus shipping.
I get that they are taking advantage of the hardcore fans by upping the prices, especially since they know the diehards will fork it over, but it sometimes leaves a bad taste in mouth, and I then tend to not buy from them directly anymore, merely out of principle.
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I get that they are taking advantage of the hardcore fans by upping the prices, especially since they know the diehards will fork it over, but it sometimes leaves a bad taste in mouth, and I then tend to not buy from them directly anymore, merely out of principle.
You said it yourself, it's taking advantage of the hardcore fans.
Louis CK put his Beacon Theater special up for five bucks. By cutting out the middle man, he had his product cheaper. I bough it almost immediately.
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We have a fucking awesome store here called Vintage Stock. Their selection of DVDs, music, and games completely overshadows Wal-Mart, Target, and Best Buy put together. They also have tons of comic books and various old/collectible toys. I try to support them when I can. They have multiple locations so I don't think they're hurting, but I usually try to buy my movies and music from them. I prefer to have physical copies, so last time I was there I snagged a few Iron Maiden albums. I'd much rather do that than download them.
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The real pisser is that while buying directly from the artist is always a great option, as it supports them more than buying from amazon or iTunes, but artists who offer that option often seem to jack the prices way up.
I'm trying to understand why not many bands are selling digital downloads of the album on their site? They don't need to pack, or ship, or print a CD, it's pure profit. Where's the culprit then?
Even though I'm not much of a buyer, a favorite band that offers an affordable download directly on their site, is almost a definite buy for me. On the other hand, I'm not gonna easily pay $20 (cd+shipping) even for the most anticipated album.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
It varies. Some months I might buy as many as one per week or so, and then maybe I won't check anything else out for a month or two, or maybe even longer.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
I can't remember not being able to afford music so I dunno. I don't listen to new music everyday. There's just a few bands I tend to listen to a LOT and just get really familiar with their stuff. So I don't really have to worry about trying to buy a ton of music all the time. I haven't pirated in forever, but there have been occasions recently where I have downloaded it prior to release out of sheer anticipation, but had a physical copy pre-ordered anyway.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Rarely. Typically I'll check out a song or two on youtube, or else I'll listen to the preview clips on iTunes or Amazon.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Usually digital. If it's a band I'm crazy about, I like to get a physical copy. But I mostly purchase/download from iTunes.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Not really. But most of the artists I listen to nowadays aren't rich.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
If I find myself going to youtube to listen to them noticeably often, at that point I figure I like it enough to justify the cost anyway.
We have a fucking awesome store here called Vintage Stock. Their selection of DVDs, music, and games completely overshadows Wal-Mart, Target, and Best Buy put together. They also have tons of comic books and various old/collectible toys. I try to support them when I can. They have multiple locations so I don't think they're hurting, but I usually try to buy my movies and music from them. I prefer to have physical copies, so last time I was there I snagged a few Iron Maiden albums. I'd much rather do that than download them.
:tup We have three or four Vintage Stocks in KC. I haven't visited them in a while, but I do remember buying my first DT album there (Images and Words).
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The real pisser is that while buying directly from the artist is always a great option, as it supports them more than buying from amazon or iTunes, but artists who offer that option often seem to jack the prices way up. It's like they say:
-You can buy my CD at amazon for $12.99, with free shipping.
Or
-You can buy my CD directly from me for $17.99, plus shipping.
I get that they are taking advantage of the hardcore fans by upping the prices, especially since they know the diehards will fork it over, but it sometimes leaves a bad taste in mouth, and I then tend to not buy from them directly anymore, merely out of principle.
I'm mainly talking about upcoming bands. Of course bands that are a bit known will jack the prices up. Even though, you can still buy support the band other ways by buying merchandise, or if they're close check them out on tour. But, if your like me, living in the musical unknown, then all you can do is Buy their music, and praise their name to get them to tour, as seeing them live beats anything studio done.
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As a music fan, I don't download. I'm sorry that a lot of people don't like reading this, but to me downloading is stealing, and yes, it's stealing period. It's taking something without permission from the rightful owner that you didn't pay for. You can rationalize it until you're blue in the face, I will never view it as anything but common thievery. And frankly, if you're offended by that, well, I don't care.
As an artist signed to a small record label with one published album and one more (which will be the last one) on the way, I can tell you with unequivocal 100% certainty that downloading (i.e. stealing) inflicts financial hardship on small bands like mine that do not have the resources to cough up $20,000 to professionally record, mix, duplicate and distribute an album's worth of music only to have so-called "fans" dump it all over the internet so that everyone on earth who wants to steal a copy can do so. And no, the "exposure" doesn't do jack shit for sales. That's a myth. I know this for a fact through direct experience.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
A month I'll probably snag 2-5 albums, mainly digital copies.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Pirate, or spotify, or grooveshark
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Always download and check it out first
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Digital with the exception of a few artists where I really enjoy have a physical copy, which usually comes in the form of a vinyl
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Yes, I always try the give the little guy money first.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
No, I'll just buy the songs off the individual album.
As I've gotten older and now have money I definitely try and support artists by buying goods from them. When I was younger and had zero money I'd just pirate the shit out of the music and save my cash to see them live.
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so-called "fans" dump it all over the internet so that everyone on earth who wants to steal a copy can do so. And no, the "exposure" doesn't do jack shit for sales. That's a myth. I know this for a fact through direct experience.
I hate to say it, but... How to put it gently...
Not *everyone* can succeed. There just isn't a place for every garage band in the world. In the age before internet, before downloads, lots of bands didn't succeed. And there's always someone to blame - the labels, the executives, now the listeners.
Only the minority can make it out there, and only the artists that offer something unique and of real quality - can build a loyal fanbase (what you mentioned earlier isn't loyal fanbase), and proceed from there. And they make it despite the piracy, and sometimes because of the piracy.
By the way that's why I offered the question about buying popular vs lesser known. I realize it's more of a concern for the smaller bands, and that they probably count every sale. That's why it matters when I have to decide what to buy.
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Why are the uploaders never shat on when discussions of piracy arise? What they are doing is no different than burning a copy for a friend to check out, which is illegal duplication, but only the downloaders are getting sued. It's not like downloaders are breaking into top secret organizations and stealing company documents. This stuff is made available for everyone, shared by the uploaders.
If it wasn't for downloading, I wouldn't have bought Dream Theater's entire catolog.
Also, why aren't used CD Shops being busted? They are profiting from sharing music and artists don't see a dime of it.
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One of my good friends pirates everything down to his copy of Windows. He even got his 360 modded so that the system would run pirated games as well. I've never questioned him much about it, but knowing him, his excuse basically seems to be: "fuck them...they like...make a bunch of money...and stuff!" ::) Surprised he hasn't gotten a nasty computer virus yet.
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Surprised he hasn't gotten a nasty computer virus yet.
:rollin
Is that what they tell happens when you download lots of illegal software?
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I gotta say r0cken, you seem very passionate about being able to pirate things.
I am not so passionate about not being able to pirate things, so may I ask why you're so......well......passionate? (sorry for all the redundancy)
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Adami, I'm not. What's there to be passionate about? If I had unlimited amounts of money, I'd buy everything.
I'm just bewildered and amused, seeing how different people's mentality can be. It's all good though, everyone's entitled to their own view on things.
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Adami, I'm not. What's there to be passionate about? If I had unlimited amounts of money, I'd buy everything.
I'm just bewildered and amused, seeing how different people's mentality can be. It's all good though, everyone's entitles to their own view on things.
Oh okay. Well you make for very good reads. :) So keep on the good fight.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Very few -- maybe 3.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Spotify.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
I'll listen on Spotify or Youtube.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Well, I never actually listen to songs from the disc. If I buy a CD physically, I just rip it to my Mac immediately -- the CD is just a keepsake.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
I would feel much worse about pirating the music of a lesser-known artist, but I don't pirate anyway so it's not an issue for me.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Spotify.
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What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin Not an issue for me.
lol, wow dude
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Services like Spotify then, finally, have provided a sort of middle ground. A nice, convenient mid-point which doesn't rob anyone, but helps pay the artists
I've read (https://thetrichordist.com/2012/04/30/spotify-is-not-good-for-you-complete-post/) the sums the artists get from Spotify are ridiculously low. Only the really popular artists can benefit from it, the smaller bands would make much more money selling the actual CD on their website or at a concert. So I'm not sure about how good it is really for the artist. Good for discovering one, I suppose, but it won't pay his bills.
Emphasis - "helps pay the artists." Picked my words carefully. It's not a solution on its own, but it's part of one. Nobody's saying the problem's solved. But we're finding, pursuing, and actively changing our listening habits in ways that begin to solve it.
Building on Adami and Reapsta's posts...Bands nowadays know that money is made on touring, not album sales.
They do need records to tout, though, they need to keep producing new music to play on those tours, and record labels are great for making that music happen. Sure, there are a few legacy bands to whom this doesn't apply as much - Bob Geldof could dine out for decades on I Don't Like Mondays - but largely, the albums and the tours will feed one another, a new album that sounds great will sell more tickets than one that doesn't, and just because the band doesn't get that much money from an album doesn't mean the people who produced it don't need payment for their part in keeping the band and the tours rolling like they should.
Not really. An upcoming band needs to play live to stay alive. Its good as a band to have many songs in your repertoire before you announce yourself as one. In a way thinking back to the olden days before internet.
I agree, I just don't know how this contradicts anything I've said. Possible that I'm reading it wrong. Might have to ask you to rephrase it a bit - I am kind of a dolt.
It needs to play live to stay alive, but it also needs fans - and a fanbase won't sustain itself on a gig every two years. CDs make fans, and fans make live sales. Once the gig's over, you need a way to keep enjoying the band for the next two years, five years, sometimes ten years until it swings back round your neck of the woods. The album is what the band gives the fans, and the live sales are what the fans will give them in return. A band could have the best show in the world, but what does that mean once everyone's back home?
Your fans need something to be a fan of all year, nobody's a fan for a day, if you're relying on that they'll have forgotten you by the time you come back. The strength of your live sales is based on the strength of your fanbase, and the studio material's what the people are busy being fans of for 364 days a year - and that's an under-estimate. Even if the artist doesn't directly profit from their debut album, the album is what the people will cherish, and that gives them a reason to buy tickets, and a reason to remember the band next time they come round.
Think of the CD as an advert for the tour. They might lose money on advertising, certainly don't stand to gain much, but it creates a market and breeds loyalty, so even though you might've lost money giving people a reason to care about your brand, by the time the tour comes round people's interest is piqued, and you've laid the foundation for much stronger ticket sales.
It'd possibly be more sensible to start talking about it that way round, actually. Bands don't tour in support of an album, they release an album in preparation for a tour.
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People are arguing about how bad/good Spotify is, and it is not even available in this gloom cookie's country.
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People are arguing about how bad/good Spotify is, and it is not even available in this gloom cookie's country.
I guess the injustice is eliminated by the availability of torrent trackers :biggrin:
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It seems that the underlying moral issue here is consequentialism. If you are led to buy a CD because you first listened to it illegally, then are you justified? I would say no.
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I doubt that the artists care. Better someone who discovered them illegally and then buys their discography than one fan less.
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I doubt that the artists care. Better someone who discovered them illegally and then buys their discography than one fan less.
It varies from artist to artist. Some dislike it; some have no problem with it.
When Epicloud was first out, Devin Townsend tweeted that youtube scolded him...for posting his own music. :lol :lol :lol :lol Devin has said repeatedly that he just wants as many people as possible to hear his music, and if more buy it after hearing it, great. If not, oh well. And he is not someone who makes a killing being a full-time musician.
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Speaking of Townsend, good thing he enabled donations on his label's site. I downloaded the album and then just donated $10. It was the most convenient. Guess I could still be sued for an illegal download, hypothetically.
So that's another thing bands should do. For the fans who want to give them their money, but can't or won't use Spotify/iTunes.
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Surprised he hasn't gotten a nasty computer virus yet.
:rollin
Is that what they tell happens when you download lots of illegal software?
Nobody told me that. I experienced it first hand years ago when I used to pirate. It wasn't so much with music as it was with software - games, recording software, etc. A few times I remember scanning the torrent to find something hidden in there.
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The internet is the best promotion tool in this age. It's word of mouth times million. Labels, promoters - they are all dinosaurs. They will be extinct, as new business models are taking over.
Yeah, but that hasn't happened yet, and right now better sales=better booking.
r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
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r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
It is more moral buying it, of course. The artist should be paid.
What I'm saying is that there's a lot more to it, than the one-dimensional "downloading is stealing" argument. Dismissing the economic issue for a moment, one could say that there are different degrees of moral, and definitely different degrees of illegal. Stealing a chewing gum is different from robbing a bank, is different from downloading a song. Some would say that stealing is stealing is stealing, but even the law wouldn't agree with you.
And then, you could see downloading an album as copying it from a friend. Legal? Moral? You'd get different answers at different times and places. See, for example the "Audio Home Recording Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act)" of 1992 (lots have changed since then, I know).
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r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
Related story.
My dad got the new Led Zeppelin Celebration Day CD/DVD set. I asked him if I could borrow it. I took the CD's up to my room and ripped them to my computer. I then put the physical CD's back in the case and gave them back to my dad.
He was happy to have his CD's back. But I know that I stole from him, and the pain burns deep in my heart.
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I guess the injustice is eliminated by the availability of torrent trackers :biggrin:
It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though :) luckily, a lot of bands I'm into now have Bandcamps and free streaming or even free downloads, and some others are completely okay with people downloading their stuff. So I'm doing much less illegal downloading than last year. And reviewing for a webzine has its perks :hat
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r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
It is more moral buying it, of course. The artist should be paid.
What I'm saying is that there's a lot more to it, than the one-dimensional "downloading is stealing" argument. Dismissing the economic issue for a moment, one could say that there are different degrees of moral, and definitely different degrees of illegal. Stealing a chewing gum is different from robbing a bank, is different from downloading a song. Some would say that stealing is stealing is stealing, but even the law wouldn't agree with you.
And then, you could see downloading an album as copying it from a friend. Legal? Moral? You'd get different answers at different times and places. See, for example the "Audio Home Recording Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act)" of 1992 (lots have changed since then, I know).
Yeah, I know. I realize that the internet music culture has found all and every reason to act like downloading music isn't really that immoral or illegal. But, in most cases, they're wrong, and just trying to justify (imo) a lazy and greedy habit.
r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
Related story.
My dad got the new Led Zeppelin Celebration Day CD/DVD set. I asked him if I could borrow it. I took the CD's up to my room and ripped them to my computer. I then put the physical CD's back in the case and gave them back to my dad.
He was happy to have his CD's back. But I know that I stole from him, and the pain burns deep in my heart.
IIRC, that's neither illegal nor immoral.
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It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.
I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.
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Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.
It is a step in more or less a right direction. On the previous page, I was saying how it's silly that people have these huge debates whether Spotify is evil or not, and meanwhile, a lot of us in somewhat less fortunate countries don't even have it :) heck, I have only ever heard of it because I'm interested in these things; I purely doubt a lot of my friends are even aware of Spotify.
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I guess the injustice is eliminated by the availability of torrent trackers :biggrin:
It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though :) luckily, a lot of bands I'm into now have Bandcamps and free streaming or even free downloads, and some others are completely okay with people downloading their stuff. So I'm doing much less illegal downloading than last year. And reviewing for a webzine has its perks :hat
Sure, but first of all it's a financial problem, and second, you know to well that in our geographic region it may be sometimes too costy, nerve-wrecking and lenghty to obtain some records which aren't among the most popular, especially if you're going for ownership of physical media (CDs)...... yesterday I listened to Redemption's latest album, and I had three/four posibilities:
a) go to the local record stores and ask who the retailer for Redemption is (most often it depends on which record label the band belongs to; the label then makes a contract with an appreciated store that gets the exclusive right to import their media), then, after finding it, order and wait for approximately 2 weeks
b) order through Amazon for 10 € + 6 € shipping. Yeah right......
c) pay the download via Amazon for some 9 € - this would be even okay.....
d) just pirate it
Take a hint: at the moment I'm unemployed...... ;)
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It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.
I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.
What corporation is Spotify making money for? Certainly not themselves. They're gonna bleed dry within the next 12 months if they don't get another round of funding. 15 million customers, only 4 million are paying. Their cost of sales (ie, label licensing fees) was $236 million in 2011. That's hardly making any corporation rich.
This is an entertaining thread.
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I would gladly pay Apple $10 a month for access to stream their entire iTunes library.
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If Spotify doesn't make any money for anybody, it's even more pointless.
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It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.
I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.
What corporation is Spotify making money for? Certainly not themselves. They're gonna bleed dry within the next 12 months if they don't get another round of funding. 15 million customers, only 4 million are paying. Their cost of sales (ie, label licensing fees) was $236 million in 2011. That's hardly making any corporation rich.
This is an entertaining thread.
You're missing ad revenue.
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Ad revenue or not, they had total revenues of $244M in 2011, with cost of sales at $238M. Add in their other costs, and they posted a net loss of almost $60M ... up from a net loss of $39.5M in 2010.
It's a good business model, they just haven't figured out the economics of it yet. Who knows if they ever will.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Buying albums is not luxury for me. I have many favourite musicians in my country, plus many international bands or artists and probably I buy 2-3 albums in a month. But it changes of course. Sometimes it could 1, sometimes 5 in a month.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Well, like I said above if the band or the artist is one of my fav I buy their stuff. Other than that, if I just want to check out some stuff from other bands I'm not familiar I download. If I love it I buy them too.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
If it's from my favorite band or musician. No! I definitely buy no matter what. But my favorite or not, I do not download I just listen samples on the net. For instance from amazon for just a minute for each song. That's all.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical. I mean they are like book to me. I can't enjoy pdf so much for reading. I need to hold them. But I buy some of stuff dijital as well.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Well, no of course. I'm not interested in how big they are both financially or popularity.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Again, if they are from my all time favorite bands like Dream Theater, Anathema, Within Temptation... I buy no matter what. Good or bad or even horrible. But for the other band's albums I just started to listen or sorta like, firstly I download their albums and if I like them much I buy them too.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Usually between 5 and 10 CDs a month.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
If it's not on Simfy (something like Spotify) which I pay 5€ a month for, I don't listen to it. Sometimes I check Youtube for samples.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
No.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical only.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
No. I buy what I like, no matter what it is.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Sometimes but not very often.
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r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
Related story.
My dad got the new Led Zeppelin Celebration Day CD/DVD set. I asked him if I could borrow it. I took the CD's up to my room and ripped them to my computer. I then put the physical CD's back in the case and gave them back to my dad.
He was happy to have his CD's back. But I know that I stole from him, and the pain burns deep in my heart.
IIRC, that's neither illegal nor immoral.
Are you sure about that? Didn't I "steal" from Led Zeppelin by not buying it myself?
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I think you shouldn't be allowed to sit on the same couch with your dad, while he listens to his Zeppelin CDs. After all, you didn't pay for them...
And there should be a minimal distance defined, that a person keeps from other people's CDs. Just in case.
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I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread r0cken. I mean, you seem rather secure in your commitment to pirating, and that is totally fine. However you also seem rather.....I dunno, upset at people who don't agree. You don't really seem too interested in a real conversation, and you said yourself that you're bewildered by opposing points of view.
So....what exactly were you hoping to get out of this thread? Some people pirate, some people don't. Those that do thing it's a perfectly okay thing to do, those that don't feel it's not as okay to do. In the end it's really not the biggest deal anymore. So what do you hope for this thread?
Not trying to sound antogonistic or anything mind you, I've enjoyed reading it and have no real stake in the matter, I was just curious. :)
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That last post of mine was in a joking tone... Maybe I should've through a smiley in. Don't take it too seriously.
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That last post of mine was in a joking tone, not angry... Maybe I should've through a smiley in. Don't take it too seriously.
Oh no I figured as much, I just meant in general. You don't seem so much angry, as just kind of defensive against anyone who disagrees with you. But my question still stands as to what you kind of hoped to get out of this thread.
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Totally Unrelated Post:
Adami, you are coming up on 20000 posts. Congrats dude!
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Totally Unrelated Post:
Adami, you are coming up on 20000 posts. Congrats dude!
Pretty sure I've hit that number several times lol. They keep deleting old posts which brings me down. Doesn't matter much anyway, but thanks bro.
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Adami, well, someone have to represent the other side, no? Otherwise there would be no discussion... And obviously it couldn't just stay in the questions and answers template, it was bound to develop into a discussion.
What I hoped to get out of the thread, I already got (as I mentioned earlier). Wanted a general look at how people feel towards the subject and their habits of buying vs downloading.
Albeit, someone told me the answers here might not be very representative, but for now that's what we got.
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Totally Unrelated Post:
Adami, you are coming up on 20000 posts. Congrats dude!
Pretty sure I've hit that number several times lol. They keep deleting old posts which brings me down. Doesn't matter much anyway, but thanks bro.
Don't let The Man bring you down!
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Adami, well, someone have to represent the other side, no? Otherwise there would be no discussion... And obviously it couldn't just stay in the questions and answers template, it was bound to develop into a discussion.
What I hoped to get out of the thread, I already got (as I mentioned earlier). Wanted a general look at how people feel towards the subject and their habits of buying vs downloading.
Albeit, someone told me the answers here might not be very representative, but for now that's what we got.
Gotcha. Thanks. :)
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You know to well that in our geographic region it may be sometimes too costy, nerve-wrecking and lenghty to obtain some records which aren't among the most popular, especially if you're going for ownership of physical media (CDs)......
Sadly that's the way it goes.
I've been told once, when I tried to justify my downloading habits by saying I plan on obtaining every CD I enjoyed when it becomes easier for me to do so, that I have the choice of simply not listening to anything I can't afford. But this was said by a middle-aged, single man in a rich European country with a steady paycheck. I doubt he could ever mentally put himself into my position.
I am trying to buy a bit more, slowly switch to legal ways of acquiring/listening to music, go to every show I can and remember that, whenever I do download, I'm not doing a good thing and that I am somewhat obliged, especially if I liked it, to get it later, whether it's within a year or three years from now. That's all that I can do right now and I think that's enough for now.
They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.
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They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.
While this does not make up for stealing, which is sadly what pirating music ultimately is about, this is very true...
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They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.
While this does not make up for stealing, which is sadly what pirating music ultimately is about, this is very true...
Dito.
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You know to well that in our geographic region it may be sometimes too costy, nerve-wrecking and lenghty to obtain some records which aren't among the most popular, especially if you're going for ownership of physical media (CDs)......
Sadly that's the way it goes.
I've been told once, when I tried to justify my downloading habits by saying I plan on obtaining every CD I enjoyed when it becomes easier for me to do so, that I have the choice of simply not listening to anything I can't afford. But this was said by a middle-aged, single man in a rich European country with a steady paycheck. I doubt he could ever mentally put himself into my position.
I am trying to buy a bit more, slowly switch to legal ways of acquiring/listening to music, go to every show I can and remember that, whenever I do download, I'm not doing a good thing and that I am somewhat obliged, especially if I liked it, to get it later, whether it's within a year or three years from now. That's all that I can do right now and I think that's enough for now.
They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.
And that's the key right there. There are -for all practical purposes- no consequences for stealing music. Until or unless there ARE consequences for it, people will just do it. I'm not talking about jail or anything. I'm talking about COST. Oh, it's coming too. That IS going to be the solution. It's not coming tomorrow, but it's coming. ISPs are going to be forced into dealing with this problem sooner rather than later.
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All ISPs will need to participate, or else everyone will just switch to the one that won't fuck you.
Side thought. I hate the cost of merchadise. I find it way overpriced. If bands included a free digital download of an album with the purchase of a shirt or something... well, I'd have a lot more band shirts.
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ISPs are going to be forced into dealing with this problem sooner rather than later.
Except that you can't regulate the internet. There will always be this or that proxy or solution.
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I don't mind paying $15 for a CD or $20-$30 for a vinyl, I just limit myself to one of each or 1 vinyl or two CD's a week.
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Barry... I hear you, but - and as an IT leader, you would know this better than anyone - build a better mousetrap, the mice will eventually get smarter.
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It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.
I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.
What corporation is Spotify making money for? Certainly not themselves. They're gonna bleed dry within the next 12 months if they don't get another round of funding. 15 million customers, only 4 million are paying. Their cost of sales (ie, label licensing fees) was $236 million in 2011. That's hardly making any corporation rich.
This is an entertaining thread.
Agreed. This thread totally reeks of the downloading subculture on the internet which (like the marijuna subculture) goes around acting like the behavior is 100 percent cool with no harm done, and all detractors are just uninformed victims of some mass brainwashing campaign.
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^ This is definitely well put. I can certainly see it in the people around me.
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Lol at that comparison
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Lol at that comparison
+1
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Agreed. This thread totally reeks of the downloading subculture on the internet which (like the marijuna subculture) goes around acting like the behavior is 100 percent cool with no harm done, and all detractors are just uninformed victims of some mass brainwashing campaign.
I guess that's... Yeah, almost true.
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I love my friends that pirate music and use IP spoofers and think there is nothing to worry about. I'm pretty sure their ISP could track all that bandwidth usage if they wanted. And, you'd get into an assload more trouble for having that kind of software as opposed to just pirated music/movies/operating systems/games etc.
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Barry... I hear you, but - and as an IT leader, you would know this better than anyone - build a better mousetrap, the mice will eventually get smarter.
You mean I won't be able to use Kazaa/LimeWire anymore?
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Barry... I hear you, but - and as an IT leader, you would know this better than anyone - build a better mousetrap, the mice will eventually get smarter.
You mean I won't be able to use Kazaa/LimeWire anymore?
What about Morpheus?
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r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
It is more moral buying it, of course. The artist should be paid.
What I'm saying is that there's a lot more to it, than the one-dimensional "downloading is stealing" argument. Dismissing the economic issue for a moment, one could say that there are different degrees of moral, and definitely different degrees of illegal. Stealing a chewing gum is different from robbing a bank, is different from downloading a song. Some would say that stealing is stealing is stealing, but even the law wouldn't agree with you.
And then, you could see downloading an album as copying it from a friend. Legal? Moral? You'd get different answers at different times and places. See, for example the "Audio Home Recording Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act)" of 1992 (lots have changed since then, I know).
Yeah, I know. I realize that the internet music culture has found all and every reason to act like downloading music isn't really that immoral or illegal. But, in most cases, they're wrong, and just trying to justify (imo) a lazy and greedy habit.
r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.
Related story.
My dad got the new Led Zeppelin Celebration Day CD/DVD set. I asked him if I could borrow it. I took the CD's up to my room and ripped them to my computer. I then put the physical CD's back in the case and gave them back to my dad.
He was happy to have his CD's back. But I know that I stole from him, and the pain burns deep in my heart.
IIRC, that's neither illegal nor immoral.
I'm amazed that there was no further follow-up to this, so I guess I'll do it.
In the first block, downloading is immoral and illegal, and people who do it are lazy and greedy.
In the second block, someone has made a complete rip of an entire CD/DVD set, but that's neither illegal nor immoral.
They're the same thing.
In each scenario, a copy has been made of copyrighted material for the use of the person who made the copy. If you download music or video, you're making yourself a copy. If you rip someone's discs, you're making yourself a copy. In neither case did you pay for it.
The only difference I can see is one of scale. The files up on the Internet are there for anyone to grab; obviously that's over the line. But copying your dad's discs is the same thing. Suppose Dad has five kids and each one makes a copy. Is that still okay? Then he takes them to work and passes the discs around the office and everyone at work makes a copy. Has he crossed the line yet? Oh, what the heck, why not just upload the files to some site so anyone who wants a copy can just grab. It's easier and this is good stuff that should be shared, right?
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Suppose Dad has five kids and each one makes a copy. Is that still okay? Then he takes them to work and passes the discs around the office and everyone at work makes a copy. Has he crossed the line yet?
In Germany, for example, there's a law that says that you can give copies to up to seven friends, and they must be your friends, not someone you just met. They go into real detail there (as with all laws).
There are different laws in different countries, in regarding to how many people can watch the film you bought with you. And of what relation they must be. There are laws for everything. For sharing and copying, and giving away, and reselling and when it's okay and when it is not. Most people are just not familiar with those laws.
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The real reason Ghost Face killed all of Sidney's friends is because they didn't pay for their own copy of Halloween.
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Suppose Dad has five kids and each one makes a copy. Is that still okay? Then he takes them to work and passes the discs around the office and everyone at work makes a copy. Has he crossed the line yet?
In Germany, for example, there's a law that says that you can give copies to up to seven friends, and they must be your friends, not someone you just met. They go into real detail there (as with all laws).
There are different laws in different countries, in regarding to how many people can watch the film you bought with you. And of what relation they must be. There are laws for everything. For sharing and copying, and giving away, and reselling and when it's okay and when it is not. Most people are just not familiar with those laws.
I'm not up on the laws in Europe, but it sounds like they've got it all figured out, and have laid it all out. I'm not aware of that degree of specificity here in the U.S. Here, it's basically, "No, you can't do it, at all. Well wait... you can make one copy, for yourself, for backup, but that's it."
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I have no problem making multiple backups of songs I purchase. When I buy a track, I need it on my PC, my iPod, my iPad, my phone, and a CD.
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I've never been one to download tons of music. I make it a point to try to buy CD's with music I really enjoy. I feel like the artists deserve my money. But on the other hand, I don't see illegally downloading as that immoral. Sadly, I see legally purchasing music like a donation, aside from paying for the artwork.
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The one reason I dont illegaly download anymore is because of the sound quality, and not having control of combining tracks that flow together.
I believe Piracy got worse due to ipods becoming as popular as they did. Mostly everyone used cd players still, while only a handful had mp3 players. Plus, i never knew about downloading until i heard Lars fighting napster, i was all you can download music for free? I remember having to go buy a cd when my friends never gave them back or brought em back scratched.
I think the only solution is to educate on how buying music helps the artist, not only money wise but also to see where going to tour is feesable, and the artist wont be losing money. Supporting the artist directly by buying merch is great too, also helps if a band sells their cds on their site.
I also believe piracy isnt bad as it sows good bands from average bands.
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ISPs are going to be forced into dealing with this problem sooner rather than later.
Except that you can't regulate the internet.
Right, there are no limited data plans...oh, wait.
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What you sure can't do is intimidate people into buying music.
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What you sure can't do is intimidate people into buying music.
Who said anything about that? ???
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What you sure can't do is intimidate people into buying music.
Clint Eastwood or Joe Pesci probably could.
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I'm proud of DTF, in this thread we've not had a single YARRRRRRRRRR!!!!
oops
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I'll just leave this here (https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/industry_news/industry_opinion_lars_ulrich_was_right_about_piracy.html)
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What you sure can't do is intimidate people into buying music.
Who said anything about that? ???
The copyright associations that are going after individuals downloading files. The warning letters that are being sent out, the lawsuits (some of them coming from copyright trolls just looking to get rich, but that's another point), threatening people with charges of thousands of dollars (https://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/03/obama-sides-wit-2/) for an album or movie download, ridiculous things like this (https://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/10-year-old-girls-laptop-confiscated-after-copyright-offense-1C7227561).
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Okay, but that is not intimidating people, unless you are taking the "How dare they hold someone responsible for downloading copyrighted material for free" stance.
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Okay, but that is not intimidating people, unless you are taking the "How dare they hold someone responsible for downloading copyrighted material for free" stance.
However, those people are usually charged an insane amount of money for the purpose of making an example of someone, which then serves the purpose of scaring other people away from downloading.
It's not intimidating people in the same way as pointing a gun at them and yelling, it's more like public executions. Showing the consequences in such a way that it is supposed to stop more crime.
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I agree that the amount of the fines are just insane, and obviously meant to act as a deterrent, but I wouldn't call it intimidation.
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I agree that the amount of the fines are just insane, and obviously meant to act as a deterrent, but I wouldn't call it intimidation.
I wouldn't either, but I can see how the word might apply to some.
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I think that was r0cken's point. If it's meant to act as a deterent, it's not working. I wouldn't call it intimidation, either. I'd call it failure.
In this context, deterrent = intimidation. They're trying to make an example of the few they catch and prosecute. It doesn't work.
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How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
30-ish. If I had a job it'd be way more.
What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Pirate.
Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
Often not. Sometimes yes if I'm not sure. I often buy albums I already pirated.
Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical.
Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Not really. Sometimes though.
What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Well often I buy albums without ever hearing like previously said. If I've already heard it but just think it's okay, no I won't buy.