Author Topic: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?  (Read 8000 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« on: April 06, 2011, 09:41:45 AM »
He didn't dictate it though, so it's at the very least colored by the people who wrote it.
Yeah he did.

God dictated the (supposedly) historical accounts such as Sodom & Gomorrah? That is a rather bizarre statement. Why would God dictate something people have witnessed themselves?

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 09:43:16 AM »
He didn't dictate it though, so it's at the very least colored by the people who wrote it.
Yeah he did.

God dictated the (supposedly) historical accounts such as Sodom & Gomorrah? That is a rather bizarre statement. Why would God dictate something people have witnessed themselves?

rumborak


Moses, who wrote them down in Genesis, did not witness that himself.  He lived long after the fact.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 09:48:35 AM »
Moses wrote Genesis? o_O?
Where is that mentioned?

And, why would Moses write two different Genesis'?

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 10:01:20 AM »
Moses wrote Genesis? o_O?

As if you didn't know.

And, why would Moses write two different Genesis'?

Last I checked, there's only one.  If somebody slipped an extra copy into your Bible when you weren't looking, well...you might want to keep a closer eye on where you keep it.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 10:06:07 AM »
What?  People think Moses wrote Genesis?
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2011, 10:06:38 AM »
Not sure if serious

Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 10:09:12 AM »
Moses wrote Genesis? o_O?

As if you didn't know.

No, I do not, and frankly I find that assertion to be rather bizarre. I think it would be interesting to hear where this notion comes from.


Quote
And, why would Moses write two different Genesis'?

Last I checked, there's only one.

Genesis 1:1-2:3 and Genesis 2:4-25. Did God, when dictating Moses, have a lapse of memory, forgetting he had already dictated it?


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« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 10:14:49 AM by rumborak »
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Offline reo73

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2011, 10:34:55 AM »
Rumborak, you certainly like to nitpick every little if, and, or but in the Bible.  The first part of the Hebrew scriptures (Gen thru most of Deuteronomy) are attributed to Moses.  Whether he was the actual author who penned them or not is debatable, but nonetheless they are attributed to him as author.  How God exactly conveyed this information to him cannot be known.

For me, the bottom line with the Bible is this; it was written by man and as such it does contain difficulties.  Nothing man does is ever perfectly conceived or executed.  Especially something that we are trying to understand thousands of years later.  But, I also truly have a FAITH that it is the inspired word of God to convey His plan and purpose for His people and the difficulties do not get in the way of His message of redemption.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2011, 02:30:50 PM »
Rumborak, you certainly like to nitpick every little if, and, or but in the Bible.

I don't, really. But there's so many occasions where facts were simply "decreed" historically, you should not be surprised if I am at least astonished at you guys' adherence to them. To my knowledge, there is no reason at all to assume that Moses wrote down Genesis.

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« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 08:41:13 AM by bösk1 »
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Offline reo73

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2011, 04:12:45 PM »
Rumborak, you certainly like to nitpick every little if, and, or but in the Bible.

I don't, really. But there's so many occasions where facts were simply "decreed" historically, you should not be surprised if I am at least astonished at you guys' adherence to them. To my knowledge, there is no reason at all to assume that Moses wrote down Genesis.

rumborak


Your knowledge is bad then because Hebrew scripture itself states or implies Moses as having some if not all authorship.  It's not conclusive but it's also not a far reach to suggest Moses as being the author.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2011, 04:46:57 PM »
Rumborak, you certainly like to nitpick every little if, and, or but in the Bible.

I don't, really. But there's so many occasions where facts were simply "decreed" historically, you should not be surprised if I am at least astonished at you guys' adherence to them. To my knowledge, there is no reason at all to assume that Moses wrote down Genesis.

rumborak


Your knowledge is bad then because Hebrew scripture itself states or implies Moses as having some if not all authorship.  It's not conclusive but it's also not a far reach to suggest Moses as being the author.

I personally find that a rather far reach. The OT chronicles a vast stretch of time, and each time stretch will have had its own tribe "historian" who kept records. To say that none of those guys' work survived and instead Moses wrote all of those hundreds of pages, is a pretty far stretch.

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Offline ack44

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2011, 04:50:18 PM »
Rumborak, you certainly like to nitpick every little if, and, or but in the Bible.

I don't, really. But there's so many occasions where facts were simply "decreed" historically, you should not be surprised if I am at least astonished at you guys' adherence to them. To my knowledge, there is no reason at all to assume that Moses wrote down Genesis.

rumborak


If Jesus didn't casually mention that Moses wrote the laws or something I'm sure that belief would hardly be around anymore.

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Offline reo73

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2011, 05:10:03 PM »
Rumborak, you certainly like to nitpick every little if, and, or but in the Bible.

I don't, really. But there's so many occasions where facts were simply "decreed" historically, you should not be surprised if I am at least astonished at you guys' adherence to them. To my knowledge, there is no reason at all to assume that Moses wrote down Genesis.

rumborak


Your knowledge is bad then because Hebrew scripture itself states or implies Moses as having some if not all authorship.  It's not conclusive but it's also not a far reach to suggest Moses as being the author.

I personally find that a rather far reach. The OT chronicles a vast stretch of time, and each time stretch will have had its own tribe "historian" who kept records. To say that none of those guys' work survived and instead Moses wrote all of those hundreds of pages, is a pretty far stretch.

rumborak


Moses is only credited with the authorship of the Pentateuch, not the entire OT.  Not sure if you were inferring that?  Moses was the spiritual leader of the Jewish people and the tool of God used to liberate them from captivity.  With regards to his position and the clues from scripture itself it is reasonable to conclude Moses as author, but if you want to speculate otherwise go ahead. 

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2011, 05:27:58 PM »
Except if you look outside of scripture and actually look into it as history, it becomes evident that Moses could not have written the Torah, and that much of it falls under the label "origin myth".
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2011, 05:30:21 PM »
It is a rather interesting conclusion that, if Moses wrote Genesis, he would also have to have written the epic of Gilgamesh.

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Offline reo73

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 06:09:51 PM »
Except if you look outside of scripture and actually look into it as history, it becomes evident that Moses could not have written the Torah, and that much of it falls under the label "origin myth".

How so?  What is your historical evidence for this? 

Just to be clear, I am not saying beyond a doubt that Moses did write the Pentateuch, I am saying it is a legitimate conclusion to believe (as most conservative theologians do) that he did with what biblical scholars know about who Moses was, what is written in scripture, and what history might suggest.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 06:53:11 PM »
God wrote/dictated the bible? That's the first time I have heard of that theory. Bit weird if you ask me.
I don't want to be mean, but where have you been? That is the theory that hundreds of thousands of Christians adopt.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 07:01:20 PM »
It is a rather interesting conclusion that, if Moses wrote Genesis, he would also have to have written the epic of Gilgamesh.

rumborak


Because he was the only author at that point in time.

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 07:01:56 PM »
God wrote/dictated the bible? That's the first time I have heard of that theory. Bit weird if you ask me.
I don't want to be mean, but where have you been? That is the theory that hundreds of thousands of Christians adopt.

I'd say it's easily in the millions...very widespread belief among believers.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2011, 07:21:25 PM »
It is a rather interesting conclusion that, if Moses wrote Genesis, he would also have to have written the epic of Gilgamesh.

rumborak


Because he was the only author at that point in time.

What I am obviously referring to is the flood story in Gilgamesh. If you don't want to go for the obvious explanation, that the flood story had been "floating around" for a long time and made its way into Genesis, you have to conclude that Moses wrote Gilgamesh too. Or, all kinds of people had the same stories dictated to them by God.

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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 07:24:03 PM »
What's sad is people are totally blowing what Fiery Winds out of proportion. Fiery Winds, if I got him right, was saying that all sins are equal in God's eyes, and the amount of attention the churches pay on to attacking homosexuals is unwarranted.

:tup
It is a rather interesting conclusion that, if Moses wrote Genesis, he would also have to have written the epic of Gilgamesh.

rumborak


Because he was the only author at that point in time.

What I am obviously referring to is the flood story in Gilgamesh. If you don't want to go for the obvious explanation, that the flood story had been "floating around" for a long time and made its way into Genesis, you have to conclude that Moses wrote Gilgamesh too. Or, all kinds of people had the same stories dictated to them by God.

rumborak


Or that the stories were handed down to future generations after Noah survived...because Moses had not been born yet.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2011, 07:25:00 PM »
I don't follow. The stories were handed down through generations, and then Moses got them dictated by God?

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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2011, 07:26:16 PM »
Sure, why not? Think of the telephone game...by the time Moses comes around, you probably have 10 different versions of the same story floating around (no pun intended)...God gives the real story to Moses into the Word.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2011, 07:29:34 PM »
Sure, why not? Think of the telephone game...by the time Moses comes around, you probably have 10 different versions of the same story floating around (no pun intended)...God gives the real story to Moses into the Word.

Is religion always about choosing the most "out there" theory possible? I mean, it couldn't just be that Moses simply wrote down what others told him? Or somebody else, for that matter?

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Offline Ħ

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2011, 07:34:13 PM »
It is a rather interesting conclusion that, if Moses wrote Genesis, he would also have to have written the epic of Gilgamesh.

rumborak


Because he was the only author at that point in time.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2011, 08:57:47 AM »
What's sad is people are totally blowing what Fiery Winds out of proportion. Fiery Winds, if I got him right, was saying that all sins are equal in God's eyes, and the amount of attention the churches pay on to attacking homosexuals is unwarranted.

:tup
It is a rather interesting conclusion that, if Moses wrote Genesis, he would also have to have written the epic of Gilgamesh.

rumborak


Because he was the only author at that point in time.

What I am obviously referring to is the flood story in Gilgamesh. If you don't want to go for the obvious explanation, that the flood story had been "floating around" for a long time and made its way into Genesis, you have to conclude that Moses wrote Gilgamesh too. Or, all kinds of people had the same stories dictated to them by God.

rumborak


Or that the stories were handed down to future generations after Noah survived...because Moses had not been born yet.


Exactly.  The most logical explanation is apparent from the chronology:

-Flood happens - there are eight survivors, all of whom are eyewitnesses
-Time passes...
-Flood stories exist in all sorts of cultures all over the world, despite the fact that many of these cultures have never been exposed to one another
-Moses records the flood account in writing

Obviously, many (if not all) of these flood stories got their origin from the real thing.  Moses didn't borrow from Gilgamesh and wouldn't have to if, as logic would dictate, God was setting the record straight about an actual event that many had told (and continue to tell) down through the generations.  (and the ancient Chinese, who had the Gilgamesh narrative beat by a few hundred years actually got it right about eight survivors)
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2011, 09:13:22 AM »
Well, there's of course not much one can say if the explanatory carte blanche, God, has been pulled. Historically it is not exactly reasonable to assume that the most recent account of a story is the most accurate. Gilgamesh got his version of the flood from the epic of Atra-Hasis, which precedes Genesis by several hundred years.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2011, 09:24:04 AM »
Gilgamesh got his version of the flood from the epic of Atra-Hasis, which precedes Genesis by several hundred years.

rumborak


Perhaps, but the actual flood predates both, so I don't really see the relevance.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2011, 09:38:33 AM »
Is Moses the author of Genesis?
No.  He wasn't the author of anything.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2011, 09:42:47 AM »
Is Moses the author of Genesis?
No.  He wasn't the author of anything.

Honestly, that was kinda my understanding of it until a few days ago. I always assumed that Moses was a major character that was talked about by whoever wrote Genesis.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2011, 09:43:24 AM »
Gilgamesh got his version of the flood from the epic of Atra-Hasis, which precedes Genesis by several hundred years.

rumborak


Perhaps, but the actual flood predates both, so I don't really see the relevance.

The relevance being, if you take the oldest account as the most likely accurate, it wasn't Noah who built the ark.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2011, 09:59:21 AM »
Sorry, I'm not willing to stretch logic that far. 
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2011, 11:26:05 AM »
So I sort of have a relevant question.  Job existed a while before Moses and wrote Job.  But I'm a little confused as to how the book of Job got passed down seeing as there was no ark of the covenant to hold everything.

Another question...Deuteronomy contains details of Moses's death.  So did Moses prophecy about future events regarding his death, or did someone else (maybe Joshua) finish up Deuteronomy once Moses died?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2011, 11:44:29 AM »
Oh, right.  This thread was originally supposed to be about authorship, wasn't it.  :lol  Here's how I look at it:

First, in terms of the word "wrote":  Moses, IMO, certainly seems to have been who "wrote" the Torah, including Genesis.  Assuming for just a moment that he did, does that mean he physically wrote it in terms of putting pen to paper?  I have no idea.  He could have dictated it.  He could have physically written it himself.  Perhaps a mix of both.  Either way, I'm not sure and there is nothing in any of the text (or any extra-textual evidence) to suggest that either scenario is more likely.  Having been educated in the royal household in Egypt, he likely would have had the ability to physically write it.  But still, we just don't know.

Second, regardless of who physically penned it, do we know for certain whether Moses "wrote" it?  For certain?  No.  Likely?  Highly.  (1) The people in the best position to know, i.e., the ancient Jews, attributed it to him (as well as a few Psalms).  (2) Other OT references imply it.  (3) Although Jesus never outright says that Moses wrote the Torah (usually, in referring to specific laws or the law in general, Jesus says things like "Moses commanded" or "it is written," so there isn't an explicit tie made by him to Moses being the "author" of the written record), there are a couple of instances recorded in the gospels (I would have to go back and look to make sure of how many--it might be separate accounts of the same instance) where someone asks Jesus a question and says "Moses wrote."  There is no record of Jesus correcting the person.  Now, perhaps the person was mistaken and either Jesus did correct him and that part of the story was not written down, or Jesus didn't see a point in correcting the person about the authorship because that is really a secondary issue.  But still, Jesus did not correct someone who attributed the writing to Moses.  Phillip also makes a similar statement in Acts (along the lines of "Moses wrote...").  So, what evidence there is points to his authorship, and there really isn't anything compelling to suggest otherwise (other than modern junk science positing that there appear to be different styles and, therefore, different authors).

H, to your question, as with what I have said above, there is nothing in the text that would definitively answer that.  Whether Moses physically wrote the text or dictated it, it could have been that the details of his death were written beforehand in prophesy.  Or it could be that those details were added later by Joshua or someone else (if Moses was indeed the author of the rest of it and Joshua or another of Moses' contemporaries was the scribe, it would make sense).  Or maybe Moses just isn't the author after all and the entire thing was written by someone else.  For the reasons above, I find this the least likely.  But I wouldn't rule it out because, again, we don't have definitive evidence of authorship--only indirect evidence.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Is Moses the author of Genesis?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2011, 01:15:04 PM »
I'm a bit confused... when people say that Moses wrote the Bible, do they literally mean he wrote it?  Or that he started the oral tradition?  Because I thought that it was generally accepted that the Torah didn't begin circulating in written form until the 8th century or so BCE.  Which, if you assume that the Exodus happened around 1200 BCE (a big assumption; I think it's doubtful it ever happened) would make Moses ~500 years old which doesn't make sense.  Is the common thought like Bosk mentions, that Moses did not physically pen it but was the source for the text, or is it that Moses physically wrote them at a much earlier date?
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