Haken v. new single Nightingale (April 26)

[Progmetty]

Are the Visions & Aquarius reissues significantly better sounding? I just noticed they reissued them in 2017 and debating buying them, I think they sounded just fine before.

If you think they sound fine, why bother?  I'm not a fan of remixes and remasters unless I really disliked the original, otherwise it just feels like a money grab.

Well yeah I thought they sounded fine, but my line of thinking was if the band thought there were improvements to be made then there probably were.

I use to not mind the loudness problem with remasters cause they always sounded better in the car, but now that I've got no CD player in the car that could be an issue, they'd wear me out pretty fast in the ear buds.

The instrumental versions alone are worth it in my book, I'm a sing-along-while-doing-house-chores kinda guy and the kids are pretty sick of hearing me sing Dramatic Turn & D/T instrumental tracks over and over 

I'll probably wait on these two until I'm through with the albums that came after The Mountain. It's pretty cool having a whole bunch of music -that I'm excited about- ahead of me to explore, it only happens about once or twice per decade for me heh

[erwinrafael]

I like the Visions remaster because I can finally hear the snare.

[RoeDent]

The original version of Aquarius was out of print. I couldn't get a copy until the reissue came out, so on that front the reissue was welcome.

[Zydar]

The original version of Aquarius was out of print. I couldn't get a copy until the reissue came out, so on that front the reissue was welcome.

Yeah it was the same for me too. I couldn't get a hold of the original versions of both Aquarius and Visions, so when the reissues were available I got those instead. And they sound great to me.

[Tomislav95]

Been listening to Virus a lot lately and I love it. Definitely better than Vector and AOTY contender. Only thing I'm not fan of is production. Maybe it's just me but sounds less "organic" than older albums...

[Nekov]

I just finished listening to Virus (yes, I know it took me a while) and I'm liking it a lot. Much better than Vector, which I haven't revisited since the first couple of times I listened to it. At this point I feel like they are doing one wacky album followed by a more focused and straightforward one.

[ariich]

Only thing I'm not fan of is production. Maybe it's just me but sounds less "organic" than older albums...

Interesting, personally I really like it (more so than Vector) but it's very... full. So I can definitely see why others wouldn't like it so much, indeed I think it's part of why it took me a few listens to properly get into the album.

I just finished listening to Virus (yes, I know it took me a while) and I'm liking it a lot. Much better than Vector, which I haven't revisited since the first couple of times I listened to it. At this point I feel like they are doing one wacky album followed by a more focused and straightforward one.

Really glad to hear you're liking it Diego, I know you weren't as keen on the last couple!

[Max Kuehnau]

Only thing I'm not fan of is production. Maybe it's just me but sounds less "organic" than older albums...

Interesting, personally I really like it (more so than Vector) but it's very... full. So I can definitely see why others wouldn't like it so much, indeed I think it's part of why it took me a few listens to properly get into the album.

I just finished listening to Virus (yes, I know it took me a while) and I'm liking it a lot. Much better than Vector, which I haven't revisited since the first couple of times I listened to it. At this point I feel like they are doing one wacky album followed by a more focused and straightforward one.

Really glad to hear you're liking it Diego, I know you weren't as keen on the last couple!

I agree about it being dense (for lack of a better word) but I think it's less dense than Vector (in some places in the music anyway)

[ariich]

Only thing I'm not fan of is production. Maybe it's just me but sounds less "organic" than older albums...

Interesting, personally I really like it (more so than Vector) but it's very... full. So I can definitely see why others wouldn't like it so much, indeed I think it's part of why it took me a few listens to properly get into the album.

I just finished listening to Virus (yes, I know it took me a while) and I'm liking it a lot. Much better than Vector, which I haven't revisited since the first couple of times I listened to it. At this point I feel like they are doing one wacky album followed by a more focused and straightforward one.

Really glad to hear you're liking it Diego, I know you weren't as keen on the last couple!

I agree about it being dense (for lack of a better word) but I think it's less dense than Vector (in some places in the music anyway)

The mastering is a bit less loud/brickwalled than Vector, which I think definitely helps.

[Max Kuehnau]

Ah yes, that's true.

[Ben_Jamin]

Vector/Virus has the same effect as Between The Buried And Me's Automata 1/2.

When I listen to these albums, they sound incomplete without the other disc. So, I end up listening to both as one album.

[jammindude]

Vector/Virus has the same effect as Between The Buried And Me's Automata 1/2.

When I listen to these albums, they sound incomplete without the other disc. So, I end up listening to both as one album.

Great comparison. I agree. And again, those are albums that were released closer together than V/V were.

[Nekov]

I just finished listening to Virus (yes, I know it took me a while) and I'm liking it a lot. Much better than Vector, which I haven't revisited since the first couple of times I listened to it. At this point I feel like they are doing one wacky album followed by a more focused and straightforward one.

Really glad to hear you're liking it Diego, I know you weren't as keen on the last couple!

I quite loved Affinity. In fact, it is my favorite Haken album. The Mountain not so much. That's why I think it's one hit, one miss for me. When they focus on melody and flow they can do amazing things.

[ariich]

I just finished listening to Virus (yes, I know it took me a while) and I'm liking it a lot. Much better than Vector, which I haven't revisited since the first couple of times I listened to it. At this point I feel like they are doing one wacky album followed by a more focused and straightforward one.

Really glad to hear you're liking it Diego, I know you weren't as keen on the last couple!

I quite loved Affinity. In fact, it is my favorite Haken album. The Mountain not so much. That's why I think it's one hit, one miss for me. When they focus on melody and flow they can do amazing things.

Ah yes, must have been The Mountain I was thinking of. Either way, glad you like it.

Vector/Virus has the same effect as Between The Buried And Me's Automata 1/2.

When I listen to these albums, they sound incomplete without the other disc. So, I end up listening to both as one album.

Great comparison. I agree. And again, those are albums that were released closer together than V/V were.

I sort of see it, although the difference is that Automata was all written and recorded together as a single work. In fact I've only ever heard Automata as a single album (EDIT: I promise it's only Haken (+ some side projects) and BTBAM that I've had any privileged access to music from! ).

[Buddyhunter1]

Ariich give me the run-down on the demos Devin Townsend is currently working on. I KNOW YOU'VE HEARD THEM

[ariich]

Ariich give me the run-down on the demos Devin Townsend is currently working on. I KNOW YOU'VE HEARD THEM

They're ok I guess.

[jammindude]

@ariich

Ya, but as I’ve stated, with the way that the two albums flow together it was almost a mistake that they didn’t do it that way. Now that both albums are out, I really can appreciate both of them far more. But waiting two years for the other half would’ve been like if BTBAM had just released Automata 1 as just “Automata”, then toured for it, and then two years later recorded and released “Automatic” (or some such).

Fans were already complaining that they split the concept in two. Can you imagine the bitching that would’ve taken place if there was no hint that a part two was in the works? The shortness of the album, the sudden ending etc etc...all complaints would have been amplified by the delayed timeline and information.

[ariich]

@ariich

Ya, but as I’ve stated, with the way that the two albums flow together it was almost a mistake that they didn’t do it that way. Now that both albums are out, I really can appreciate both of them far more. But waiting two years for the other half would’ve been like if BTBAM had just released Automata 1 as just “Automata”, then toured for it, and then two years later recorded and released “Automatic” (or some such).

Fans were already complaining that they split the concept in two. Can you imagine the bitching that would’ve taken place if there was no hint that a part two was in the works? The shortness of the album, the sudden ending etc etc...all complaints would have been amplified by the delayed timeline and information.

Oh yeah for sure, I agree that the albums work best in combination, and while I don't think they should have held off and released both together, I totally get why you'd feel that way.

I only mean to highlight the different scenarios. In BTBAM's case, they recorded a single album that had two distinct halves but was very much one work. I'm not actually sure what the rationale was for splitting the releases but for whatever reason that's what they did, which is why part II came out fairly quickly. There'd have been no reason to hold it back for two years.

Whereas Vector was written as a standalone complete album, with the intention to do a sequel but nothing actually written. So again holding back a finished album for a year or two would have been quite weird really.

[mike099]

The Messiah Complex versus Veil -  I like Veil much better.  To me The Messiah Complex is a hot mess and also love the keyboards in Veil. 

On the new album, I love Invasion and Canary Yellow.

[Buddyhunter1]

Veil is great. The abrupt transition in the middle sucks but that's the only problem it has.

[ariich]

Veil and Messiah Complex aren't really anything like each other so it doesn't really make sense to compare them. A more meaningful comparison is between Veil and Carousel as they have much more in common. On balance I marginally prefer Carousel.

[cramx3]

Messiah Complex actually reminds me a bit of Devin Townsend's Singularity, an epic song broken up into 5/6 parts with each part not really flowing into the other, lots of really complex music, and kind of what some might describe as "a hot mess" but the difference is I see Messiah Complex as a significantly more interesting and well put together song, maybe because of the elements from other songs in it, and a reprise of the chorus from ivory tower in ectobius rex that kind of makes it feel more complete and makes it feel nothing like "a hot mess" where as I have still yet to find enjoyment from Singularity as a whole. 

I had rated Veil as my favorite from Vector, but I think it's possisble Messiah Complex, Carousel, and The Strain are all better than it.  Which I guess just shows that I enjoy Virus much more than Vector.

[erwinrafael]

I finally found a way to enjoy Virus. I stop at Canary Yellow.

[NoFred]

Had a few more listens and a run through the earlier albums. Good news is I prefer listening to Virus over the nostalgia, so they’re not slowing down yet. Some thoughts:
-Works so well with Vector they’re indistinguishable from a double album, MC benefits the most as it’s too epic for ending a single album, and has many V callbacks
-from both albums Canary Yellow may be my favorite, then Carousel, then all of Vector, then rest of Virus
-think Only Stars should have been fleshed out a la Somebody and Bound by Gravity, or worked into the ending epic like CE or Visions... first ending track I think they got wrong and my first automatic skip of theirs - song is fine but doesn’t fit at all
-On par overall with Aquarius, Visions, Vector... the Mountain and Affinity are both next level
-no reason to think next album won’t have a different sound, they seem to get what they set out to do and we knew these would be heavier
-That said, I’m going to miss Diego
-I take the concept metaphorically, Vector is how one becomes a slave of their own ambition, Virus is how that ambition plays out... CK would work as an overture, interlude, or coda
-MC works as separate tracks as they are clearly parts with some effort put into their transitions (But nothing as cool as the strain to canary yellow, gonna miss Diego)
-“with your cartoon arms”
-I appreciate everything they put into these, the composition and nuggetz, whatever my reaction to the music my takeaway is these guys put in 200% which completely enhances the experience

[erwinrafael]

The separation of MC into tracks is to maximize streaming revenue, right? If Spotify was big then, Visions and Aquarius may have been broken down also.

[Progmetty]

I'm getting the impression I'm lucky that I get to hear both Vector and Virus together for the first time.
Anybody know who produced The Mountain? It doesn't say in the booklet, Wikipedia, nor InsideOut page for the album, it seems like that should mean it's self produced but it doesn't specifically say that anywhere.

[ariich]

The separation of MC into tracks is to maximize streaming revenue, right? If Spotify was big then, Visions and Aquarius may have been broken down also.

Not to my knowledge. It's possible that was a factor I suppose but I've never heard anything about that.

I'm getting the impression I'm lucky that I get to hear both Vector and Virus together for the first time.
Anybody know who produced The Mountain? It doesn't say in the booklet, Wikipedia, nor InsideOut page for the album, it seems like that should mean it's self produced but it doesn't specifically say that anywhere.

Jens Bogren produced The Mountain, Restoration and Affinity.

[GasparXR]

Mixed bag. They are not real remixes, but very aggressive remasters that try to sound like remixes. The intentions are good, but it sounds very artificial at times.

I think they are remixed actually, because there were a couple very subtle changes that could only be done by removing parts of certain tracks. In the song Aquarium, right before the second chorus (Freak of nature, pay to see her..) there's a piano lead-in that originally had a drum fill into the chorus, but the 2017 release gets rid of that drum fill. Likewise, in Insomnia, during the "video-game" break down, there's a bass synth part that's no longer there in the 2017 version.

[Fritzinger]

Had a few more listens and a run through the earlier albums. Good news is I prefer listening to Virus over the nostalgia, so they’re not slowing down yet. Some thoughts:
-Works so well with Vector they’re indistinguishable from a double album, MC benefits the most as it’s too epic for ending a single album, and has many V callbacks
-from both albums Canary Yellow may be my favorite, then Carousel, then all of Vector, then rest of Virus
-think Only Stars should have been fleshed out a la Somebody and Bound by Gravity, or worked into the ending epic like CE or Visions... first ending track I think they got wrong and my first automatic skip of theirs - song is fine but doesn’t fit at all
-On par overall with Aquarius, Visions, Vector... the Mountain and Affinity are both next level
-no reason to think next album won’t have a different sound, they seem to get what they set out to do and we knew these would be heavier
-That said, I’m going to miss Diego
-I take the concept metaphorically, Vector is how one becomes a slave of their own ambition, Virus is how that ambition plays out... CK would work as an overture, interlude, or coda
-MC works as separate tracks as they are clearly parts with some effort put into their transitions (But nothing as cool as the strain to canary yellow, gonna miss Diego)
-“with your cartoon arms”
-I appreciate everything they put into these, the composition and nuggetz, whatever my reaction to the music my takeaway is these guys put in 200% which completely enhances the experience

Did I miss something or do you know something about the rumors we don't?

[Ben_Jamin]

Mixed bag. They are not real remixes, but very aggressive remasters that try to sound like remixes. The intentions are good, but it sounds very artificial at times.

I think they are remixed actually, because there were a couple very subtle changes that could only be done by removing parts of certain tracks. In the song Aquarium, right before the second chorus (Freak of nature, pay to see her..) there's a piano lead-in that originally had a drum fill into the chorus, but the 2017 release gets rid of that drum fill. Likewise, in Insomnia, during the "video-game" break down, there's a bass synth part that's no longer there in the 2017 version.

That's unfortunate, because It bothers me a bit when bands do that. Unless, they specifically state they hated the mix or didn't like that sound in there, but had no control over it, until now.

I haven't heard the originals as I can't find them. Only recently able to find Aquarius, still haven't bought it though. I did buy visions and it's the remaster.

[cramx3]

Had a few more listens and a run through the earlier albums. Good news is I prefer listening to Virus over the nostalgia, so they’re not slowing down yet. Some thoughts:
-Works so well with Vector they’re indistinguishable from a double album, MC benefits the most as it’s too epic for ending a single album, and has many V callbacks
-from both albums Canary Yellow may be my favorite, then Carousel, then all of Vector, then rest of Virus
-think Only Stars should have been fleshed out a la Somebody and Bound by Gravity, or worked into the ending epic like CE or Visions... first ending track I think they got wrong and my first automatic skip of theirs - song is fine but doesn’t fit at all
-On par overall with Aquarius, Visions, Vector... the Mountain and Affinity are both next level
-no reason to think next album won’t have a different sound, they seem to get what they set out to do and we knew these would be heavier
-That said, I’m going to miss Diego
-I take the concept metaphorically, Vector is how one becomes a slave of their own ambition, Virus is how that ambition plays out... CK would work as an overture, interlude, or coda
-MC works as separate tracks as they are clearly parts with some effort put into their transitions (But nothing as cool as the strain to canary yellow, gonna miss Diego)
-“with your cartoon arms”
-I appreciate everything they put into these, the composition and nuggetz, whatever my reaction to the music my takeaway is these guys put in 200% which completely enhances the experience

Did I miss something or do you know something about the rumors we don't?

I feel it's a rather safe assumption at this point.  And I'm sure that's all that comment was. As someone mentioned in this thread earlier, it would be more surprising if he was still in the band at this point than out. 

[RoeDent]

The separation of MC into tracks is to maximize streaming revenue, right? If Spotify was big then, Visions and Aquarius may have been broken down also.

The separation of "short" epics into individual tracks predates the streaming era by some time. Spock's Beard did it on most of their epics from 1999.

[Elite]

It's probably because it doesn't make sense as a full tack and is more like a suite of tracks that belong together than a 'real' single epic.

[Buddyhunter1]

It's probably because it doesn't make sense as a full tack and is more like a suite of tracks that belong together than a 'real' single epic.

Haken truly is Dream Theater now that they have their 6DOIT for fans to eternally debate over whether it's a song or a suite.

[cramx3]

It's probably because it doesn't make sense as a full tack and is more like a suite of tracks that belong together than a 'real' single epic.

I don't mind it being broken up, but after more listens, I kind of feels like it would be fine as a single track.  It almost feels like Marigold isn't broken up properly either, like the cut should make that song much shorter and Glutton longer, but then it would be weird. 

It's probably because it doesn't make sense as a full tack and is more like a suite of tracks that belong together than a 'real' single epic.

Haken truly is Dream Theater now that they have their 6DOIT for fans to eternally debate over whether it's a song or a suite.

They will truly accomplish this if they release a live version of MC as one track