MP's Shattered Fortress Tour

[The Letter M]

Having "creative control" only matters if the creators bring some good stuff to the table. A chef can only make something so good if the ingredients aren't that great. Hopefully with DS on board, there will be some tasty prog metal for MP to pick and choose from, as he does. It'll be interesting to hear what kind of music a seasoned Sherinian will make with Portnoy, nearly 20 years after FII.

-Marc.

[Elite]

I love how this thread changed from the Shattered Fortress into ann overall discussion of Mike Portnoy

[Adami]

Anyone else hope DT play the entire 12SS but with the Haken drummer?

[Elite]

I do feel sad for him, yes. Maybe he still gets to go to all the Festivals and watch from the side how big bully Mike takes over his band.

[ariich]

That roughly translates to, "I can't wait to boss people around again."

Yeah He did seem a little too excited about CREATIVE CONTROL AGAIN MWUAHAHA.

That said, this is cool news, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he comes up with.

[rumborak]

Anyone else hope DT play the entire 12SS but with the Haken drummer?

Two stages.

Only one tune.

And at the end, only one band remains.

Tune in for the next episode of "That MP show".

[KevShmev]

Having "creative control" only matters if the creators bring some good stuff to the table.

Yep.  I'll wait and see who is in this band before deciding to give it a go or not.  I find it hard to believe that a good, prolific songwriter, of which they will need, is willing to join this band under the concession that the drummer gets to call all the shots.  Band "dictatorships" only work when the "dictator" is a prolific and great songwriter, ala Steven Wilson or Roger Waters.

[ReaperKK]

I'll give it a listen like I do with more MP work. It'll be interesting to see what MP and his creative control end up sounding like.

[rumborak]

No reason to not at least check it out. But of course I agree, creative control by MP is by no means a guarantee for quality, and I agree with Kev that it would likely scare away a lot of songwriters.

[bosk1]

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody here, that thinks Eric is just a JP clone, listened to his solo album the great unknown?
If somebody listen to that allbum, I can't believe that will continue to have this opinion.

I haven't heard it, but I never felt like he was a "JP clone."  However, with Mike referring to him as precisely that and him embracing it, it's hard to argue the contrary.  I guess I'll just enjoy the NM albums he is on and all that playing he does that is decidedly NOT JP-like.

[King Postwhore]

His solo album is completely different from NMB.  It is very heavy, guitar heavy as well.

[Skeever]

Not sure MP's "creative control" in DT isn't being overstated here.

Sure, MP had a ton of control. In DT, I got the impression that he had was the external "face" of the band, as well as a managerial type "producer" presence in the studio. But, even at the height of his control in DT, I also always got the sense that MP had to lean heavily on JP and JR to create the music. MP is not a songwriter, and thus he has always had to defer to the "experts" in the room once he has delivered his overarching message (i.e., "let's do something heavy!", "let's do a ballad", "let's do an epic!"). Unlike, say, Steven Wilson, there's little MP can do about the material and performances his band put down, other than make production suggestions and nitpick.

So in other words, just because MP could have had full creative control, doesn't mean he will have it. MP is not the type of multi-instrumentalist who can bring an entire demo of songs to the table for a band to flesh out. Even with a heightened level of MP control, this project will only be as good as the other songwriters involved.

[Samsara]

re: creative control

>>>Very interesting statement by MP. I'm not sure DT was "controlled" by Mike creatively. To some degree, yes. But JP and JR wrote the majority of the music, with Mike's input on direction, and his lyrics. If that's the same control Mike is going to have in this new prog metal band, where he guides the music being done, and writes a lot of lyrics, OK then.

Obviously the people working with him are good with it and Mike wants something to call "his own." Will be cool to see how it turns out. Could be a huge trainwreck, or it could be amazing.

From my understanding, Mike over the years came up with a couple of riff ideas, but aside from being a lyric writer, just how influential was he in guiding how the music in DT was created. I saw he pretty much directed James on the vocals in some instances (some videos I've seen), but did he do the same with JP and JR? What was the balance of control vs. collaboration in DT with him in the band?

[gzarruk]

Not sure MP's "creative control" in DT isn't being overstated here.

Sure, MP had a ton of control. In DT, I got the impression that he had was the external "face" of the band, as well as a managerial type "producer" presence in the studio. But, even at the height of his control in DT, I also always got the sense that MP had to lean heavily on JP and JR to create the music. MP is not a songwriter, and thus he has always had to defer to the "experts" in the room once he has delivered his overarching message (i.e., "let's do something heavy!", "let's do a ballad", "let's do an epic!"). Unlike, say, Steven Wilson, there's little MP can do about the material and performances his band put down, other than make production suggestions and nitpick.

So in other words, just because MP could have had full creative control, doesn't mean he will have it. MP is not the type of multi-instrumentalist who can bring an entire demo of songs to the table for a band to flesh out. Even with a heightened level of MP control, this project will only be as good as the other songwriters involved.

What he said.

[axeman90210]

Yeah, I always got the impression that most of his control with DT was related to non-songwriting things (e.g. setlists, fanclub/bootleg releases). When it comes to songwriting I got the impression that for the most part JP and JR were coming up with the riffs and such and MP's contributions related to writing lyrics (and potentially directing James for vocal melodies for his lyrics) and more in arranging the different parts John and Jordan were coming up with. If that's the kind of control he's going back to, he'll only be as good as the the guys he has coming up with riffs and melodies.

[ariich]

re: creative control

>>>Very interesting statement by MP. I'm not sure DT was "controlled" by Mike creatively. To some degree, yes. But JP and JR wrote the majority of the music, with Mike's input on direction, and his lyrics. If that's the same control Mike is going to have in this new prog metal band, where he guides the music being done, and writes a lot of lyrics, OK then.

Obviously the people working with him are good with it and Mike wants something to call "his own." Will be cool to see how it turns out. Could be a huge trainwreck, or it could be amazing.

From my understanding, Mike over the years came up with a couple of riff ideas, but aside from being a lyric writer, just how influential was he in guiding how the music in DT was created. I saw he pretty much directed James on the vocals in some instances (some videos I've seen), but did he do the same with JP and JR? What was the balance of control vs. collaboration in DT with him in the band?

Agreed with this on the whole, and would add that in terms of direction and overall creative control, it was very much shared between MP and JP (as you with the music itself primarily written by JP and JR). So if he's saying the same level of creative control as in DT, to me that would suggest partnering with someone else (possibly Derek?). If it's actually MP in charge overall, then that's actually more control than he had in DT.

Will be very interesting to see how this pans out...

[Zook]

Mike Portnoy doesn't job to anyone, BROTHER!

[RodrigoAltaf]

If the PSMS is anything to go by, I think we´re in for a pleasant surprise. As much as the material they played was 100% covers, Derek´s tone is incredible, and he´s done things that are far more complex than FII since he left the band. I´m excited for this, and can´t wait for the release. Please post updates here - I can´t use Twitter of Facebook at work!

[Herrick]

From that, I'm believing now, if the fans will embrace it, maybe this project will become the main MP band and not only a side project.

I'm not into The Winery Dogs. Are they taking a hiatus or something? I thought that was Portnoy's main band.

[RodrigoAltaf]

They have a new live DVD which will be out soon, and Will record a new album next year. In the meantime, Kotzen has a new album out and is touring with The Dead Daisies

[Skeever]

From that, I'm believing now, if the fans will embrace it, maybe this project will become the main MP band and not only a side project.

I'm not into The Winery Dogs. Are they taking a hiatus or something? I thought that was Portnoy's main band.

I feel like every band MP has started since leaving DT has been called his "main band" at some point.

Most MP projects are at least 2-3 albums deep now (depending on how you count live albums), which is right around the time period where you'd expect to see a band re-evaluating its future. Given all these projects have had fairly limited success, and most members of these projects have just as reliable revenue streams elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a few more MP bands silently going the way of Adrenaline Mob.

[devieira73]

I read somewhere MP saying that winery dogs is the closer to a main band the he has nowadays (at least before this progmetal band), although, even winery dogs would take a break of one year or so in order to Kotzen would continue to do his solo career and Sheehan could do his other projects, like mr. big (that will record a new album and tour this year).

[Herrick]

I see.

Well, I like Sherinian's Planet X stuff. I haven't checked out much of his solo music. I can't get too excited about yet another upcoming band with Portnoy until I know for sure who is going to be in it.

[rumborak]

I think at this point in MP's life, and I don't blame him, he will stick with a band right to the moment when it run its course, and not longer. MP always has several things cooking at the same time (for better or worse), and he's not gonna waste time on something that doesn't have an obvious future.
I'm not saying TWD is at that point, but it's probably not too far away either.

[Samsara]

I think at this point in MP's life, and I don't blame him, he will stick with a band right to the moment when it run its course, and not longer. MP always has several things cooking at the same time (for better or worse), and he's not gonna waste time on something that doesn't have an obvious future.
I'm not saying TWD is at that point, but it's probably not too far away either.

I agree with you on the last sentence. TWD has been successful to a degree, but it hasn't set the world on fire either. And of course, if you listen to Eddie Trunk, he of course takes every opportunity to say how he put the band together. 

TWD has some live record coming out. I imagine that live record might be the last thing folks get for a while. If MP has some good names with his new prog metal band (and having Derek is a good start), I imagine this band might be the one consistent thing he'll have to finish out his career. Having Derek ties it to Dream Theater, which means bigger bookings for live shows, and potentially  more opportunities. That was part of the reason I've been pretty forward about MP embracing his past. Doing so potentially gives him even further options, both musically and financially, in the future.

TWD wasn't really my thing (Kotzen is good, Sheehan is good, but TWD just doesn't work for me), and I think a lot of prog fans feel similar. Having Mike back in the prog metal saddle, with Derek with him, will only mean better things. Looking forward to hearing about the lineup. The songwriter (assuming guitarist) and singer will be key. If MP hits a home run on the lineup, I see this band really helping him finish out his career on a high note, artistically. If it's just another double, it'll be cool, but then I agree with you, rumbo, this might be another "two records and out" situation.

[bosk1]

I think at this point in MP's life, and I don't blame him, he will stick with a band right to the moment when it run its course, and not longer. MP always has several things cooking at the same time (for better or worse), and he's not gonna waste time on something that doesn't have an obvious future.
I'm not saying TWD is at that point, but it's probably not too far away either.

Hard to say.  I know for me personally, I feel that way.  Two albums in, I'm not really interested anymore.  Not that their music is bad, but it just doesn't do much for me.  And I know I'm not alone.  But I am under the impression (and I could be completely wrong here) that there are still plenty out there who do not agree and will still buy anything this group puts out and will go to their shows.  Assuming there's still a market for this, and the members enjoy doing it, I don't know that it will have "run its course."

[cramx3]

I think at this point in MP's life, and I don't blame him, he will stick with a band right to the moment when it run its course, and not longer. MP always has several things cooking at the same time (for better or worse), and he's not gonna waste time on something that doesn't have an obvious future.
I'm not saying TWD is at that point, but it's probably not too far away either.

Hard to say.  I know for me personally, I feel that way.  Two albums in, I'm not really interested anymore.  Not that their music is bad, but it just doesn't do much for me.  And I know I'm not alone.  But I am under the impression (and I could be completely wrong here) that there are still plenty out there who do not agree and will still buy anything this group puts out and will go to their shows.  Assuming there's still a market for this, and the members enjoy doing it, I don't know that it will have "run its course."

And that would be me.  I listened to both albums yesterday and they are fantastic.  I'd definitely buy another and check them out on tour again.  I think they have a significantly bigger shot at being commercially successful (if that's something that interests them) than any other of MP's projects.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I mean, they've played well over 170 shows on two album cycles, including getting booked at some pretty high profile festivals like Graspop, Monsters of Rock Cruise (twice), Rocklahoma, and M3.  There is definitely demand.  If that continues, even if it has tapered off some, I would think that alone would be incentive for them to continue.  Time will tell.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I think at this point in MP's life, and I don't blame him, he will stick with a band right to the moment when it run its course, and not longer. MP always has several things cooking at the same time (for better or worse), and he's not gonna waste time on something that doesn't have an obvious future.
I'm not saying TWD is at that point, but it's probably not too far away either.

Hard to say.  I know for me personally, I feel that way.  Two albums in, I'm not really interested anymore.  Not that their music is bad, but it just doesn't do much for me.  And I know I'm not alone.  But I am under the impression (and I could be completely wrong here) that there are still plenty out there who do not agree and will still buy anything this group puts out and will go to their shows.  Assuming there's still a market for this, and the members enjoy doing it, I don't know that it will have "run its course."

And that would be me.  I listened to both albums yesterday and they are fantastic.  I'd definitely buy another and check them out on tour again.  I think they have a significantly bigger shot at being commercially successful (if that's something that interests them) than any other of MP's projects.

I agree 100%. Their live shows keep getting better and bigger. And both albums are incredible IMO.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Their first show in Rio was in a sold out 500 seat venue (2013). The second one, last year, was in front of 5,000

[Samsara]

Their first show in Rio was in a sold out 500 seat venue (2013). The second one, last year, was in front of 5,000

Impressive for sure. But I imagine that this prog metal band may do just as well, if not more...

[The Letter M]

For the longest time, I always thought MP was only good for 2 albums on any side-projects: LTE only did two (well, because JR joined DT, and their reasoning for not doing LTE 3 was solid at the time), Mike only stuck around for 2 OSI albums (though that was due to tensions with Kevin), and at the time of Neal's leaving TA they had only done two albums. Mike has had some weird luck with doing just two and done in those instances, but at least Transatlantic has since reformed and done two more. I hope he does more with TWD, and at least Flying Colors with working on their third one already, so we're getting there.

Honestly, I've always felt that Neal Morse has been Mike's "main band". Sure, he doesn't have the same kind of control or input as he did in Dream Theater, but his work with Neal on hi solo albums has been so prolific that it's hard to separate Neal from Mike's career, especially since leaving Dream Theater. In the 6-7 years since he left, Mike has done 4 solo albums with Neal/the Neal Morse Band, as well as 1 with Transatlantic, and 2 with Flying Colors, not to mention a TON of touring. I see The Winery Dogs, and other things like Metal Allegiance, as ways of Mike to perform non-prog music, though i definitely do not see them as any attempt at creating a new "main band" for himself.

What awaits us for this new one though could be anything, and if it's a new main band for him, more power to him, but at this point in his life, starting a new band to put more focus on seems like a hard thing to do. How many more albums could he possibly do to make something like this prog-metal supergroup be a true success? How this first album is received will really affect whether or not Mike continues with it in terms of how much effort he'll put into it, just by looking at how successful TWD has been. Unless of course this is all just a passion project and he's not looking for success or fame or recognition - just a chance to write and perform the kind of music he used to play in Dream Theater.

-Marc.

[Skeever]

Along those lines, TSOAD is the first time I've ever seen Mike voice some frustration over his involvement in a Neal project as well. Perhaps that is because TSOAD was more of a collaborative record than previous Neal Morse records, where Neal did all the writing. So whereas Mike may have been able to shrug off disappointments from the less collaborative albums,you can tell it hit him harder this time as he seems to have poured it all into that album, and wanted it to do better.

[Setlist Scotty]

Yeah, I always got the impression that most of his control with DT was related to non-songwriting things (e.g. setlists, fanclub/bootleg releases). When it comes to songwriting I got the impression that for the most part JP and JR were coming up with the riffs and such and MP's contributions related to writing lyrics (and potentially directing James for vocal melodies for his lyrics) and more in arranging the different parts John and Jordan were coming up with. If that's the kind of control he's going back to, he'll only be as good as the the guys he has coming up with riffs and melodies.

I'd say that this is a pretty fair assessment of his involvement, altho I'd also add that I think he steers the general direction/mood of the album and I think he probably contributes more musically than most people think (but still far less than JP and JR or any of the other bands he's in). But yeah, this will only be as good as who he brings into the fold to come up with most of the actual riffs and melodies. However, I can't imagine that he's just going to pick some random people out without having really thought things through. Being in the same genre as DT and with Derek aboard, he knows that this band/project will be compared to DT, so he'll really need to make sure that it's of the same quality.
 
 

I feel like every band MP has started since leaving DT has been called his "main band" at some point.

Actually that's not true at all. The only bands he's really said were his main bands since leaving DT are AMob and TWD. In several interviews he's always made it abundantly clear that TA and FC were side projects and I'm pretty sure he's said the same about Metal Allegiance. Now that AMob is gone and it's the Neal Morse Band instead of Neal Morse solo, it might be that the NMB has become a main band to him. No clue if this new band/project will become his new main band and/or push aside the others if it really takes hold with the fans. I think he'll probably hold off on making such a statement until things have progressed further and he sees what kind of reaction it gets.
 
 

Most MP projects are at least 2-3 albums deep now (depending on how you count live albums), which is right around the time period where you'd expect to see a band re-evaluating its future. Given all these projects have had fairly limited success, and most members of these projects have just as reliable revenue streams elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a few more MP bands silently going the way of Adrenaline Mob.

That's quite possible. As busy as he is, there's only so much time in each day and he'll have to figure out what takes priority and if he can still shoe-horn in the others.
 
 

I think at this point in MP's life, and I don't blame him, he will stick with a band right to the moment when it run its course, and not longer. MP always has several things cooking at the same time (for better or worse), and he's not gonna waste time on something that doesn't have an obvious future.
I'm not saying TWD is at that point, but it's probably not too far away either.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for him to stick with something after it becomes clear that it's not worth continuing. And I say that not just because of fan reaction, but also whether he fully believes in it or not. I think TWD will stick around for at least a couple more albums since he does seem to be a firm believer in the band. Time will tell.
 
 

And of course, if you listen to Eddie Trunk, he of course takes every opportunity to say how he put the band together. 

Oh brother tell me about it. I don't mind Eddie overall, but that is probably one of the most annoying things. Just shut up already - we know you suggested Richie to MP - no need to rehash the story for the umpteenth time!
 
 

Along those lines, TSOAD is the first time I've ever seen Mike voice some frustration over his involvement in a Neal project as well. Perhaps that is because TSOAD was more of a collaborative record than previous Neal Morse records, where Neal did all the writing. So whereas Mike may have been able to shrug off disappointments from the less collaborative albums,you can tell it hit him harder this time as he seems to have poured it all into that album, and wanted it to do better.

Interesting - I haven't followed all his interviews tied to TSoaD, but I was under the impression that he was fully into it. I mean he trumpeted that he thinks it's one of the best albums of his career and thinks it's of the same quality as other well known concept albums. What did he say that was frustrating for him? And even then, I think he realizes that things won't go smoothly every time you collaborate, and yet he strives for collaboration wherever possible. He hates bands and albums where everything is just recorded in individual studios and Fed-Exed to the next guy to add his parts. The only times I really remember him voicing frustration in a collaboration was with OSI, and that was because KevMo was apparently very inflexible.

[Skeever]

He was very clearly frustrated with the sales of TSoaD.
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?high=&m=2978610&mpage=1#2978619

He made two other posts in the thread, one of which was removed.