Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[GasparXR]

Oh boy, this should be controversial:

I want Jordan Rudess and John Petrucci to be replaced.

By exact clones of themselves, I presume?

[BlobVanDam]

But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.

[Irock]

But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.

At what point is Dream Theater no longer Dream Theater? Were they not Dream Theater before Labrie joined? Were they not Dream Theater after they changed their sound up with Awake? Were they not Dream Theater after Kevin Moore left? Were they not Dream Theater after Mike Portnoy left?

[BlobVanDam]

But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.

At what point is Dream Theater no longer Dream Theater? Were they not Dream Theater before Labrie joined? Were they not Dream Theater after they changed their sound up with Awake? Were they not Dream Theater after Kevin Moore left? Were they not Dream Theater after Mike Portnoy left?

The only constants in DT since the start have been JP and JM, and JP has been a main songwriter since day 1, and biggest influence of DT's signature sound. The other primary songwriter for the past 14 years is JR. If you want to get rid of both at the same time, there is no doubt to me that would no longer be DT, and if you want both to be replaced, I get the feeling you really don't like DT anymore anyway, so should just move along.

[Jaffa]

EDIT:  Ignore this.  My mistake.

[j]

I'm genuinely curious about your reasoning for wanting JP out.  Other than possibly eliminating his role as a producer.

-J

[Irock]

But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.

At what point is Dream Theater no longer Dream Theater? Were they not Dream Theater before Labrie joined? Were they not Dream Theater after they changed their sound up with Awake? Were they not Dream Theater after Kevin Moore left? Were they not Dream Theater after Mike Portnoy left?

The only constants in DT since the start have been JP and JM, and JP has been a main songwriter since day 1, and biggest influence of DT's signature sound. The other primary songwriter for the past 14 years is JR. If you want to get rid of both at the same time, there is no doubt to me that would no longer be DT, and if you want both to be replaced, I get the feeling you really don't like DT anymore anyway, so should just move along.

Mike Portnoy was also a founding member, correct? There were fans saying that Dream Theater wasn't Dream Theater without Portnoy, which you obviously disagree with, so it's all subjective. A large part of Dream Theater's core is experimentation and change. Look at the massive degree of change that happened between their first, say, eight albums, from one album to the next. Dream Theater is a band built on reinventing itself every album. At this point, it seems like they're going out of their way to sound the same in very blatant ways. The last two albums by in large sound like they could easily be merged together into one really big album, except listeners would probably complain about how redundant the songs are. Dream Theater has become less like Dream Theater because they're losing the most important aspect of their core.

I'd rather Rudess and Petrucci show a willingness to honor the Dream Theater tradition of experimentation and change rather than be replaced. I just see it as a big problem.

Dream Theater is still one of my favorite bands of all time. They've fallen down a couple ranks recently, but they've still produced some of the greatest and most interesting music in history. I know they're still capable of doing that, so I'm not going to move on. There are a few cool and interesting parts on the new album, but I feel there's too much stagnation and attempts to recreate past sounds that outweigh those good moments.

[j]

I don't know how that opinion led you to a desire for Petrucci and Rudess to "be replaced," but I agree that I'd like to see DT venture far outside of the prog metal bubble.

-J

[BlobVanDam]

Even though MP was a founding member, he wasn't a main songwriter, being a drummer (I'd argue that generally speaking, a drummer is usually the most replaceable member of any band).

My point was more about your opinion of getting rid of TWO members at once, rather than getting rid of any individual person. At this point I think they've successfully proven to still be DT in every case of new members, but for the reasons given, I don't think JP is replaceable, and to get rid of the two main songwriters at the same time would be catastrophically detrimental to their sound imo.

But I do share your desire for more experimentation, I just don't think they need to replace members to achieve that. I think it's a matter of approach.

[rumborak]

My (maybe not so) controversial opinion: I think Jordan is much more musically at home on LMR than on DT12.

When listening to LMR, it felt like the JR that was on LTE/SFAM, so I got a similar feeling. I want him to do more of that in DT, and experiment more.
Not that I have a problem with what he does in DT at all, but it feels like he's tamed in a bit on recent DT albums, as opposed to his earlier ones that I prefer largely for that reason.

I honestly think, and over the years JR let it shine through occasionally in comments, he often doesn't know what to play in DT's music. I specifically remember him mentioning the harder sections where he's just doubling the guitar.
LMR, to Marco's credit, was written by Marco actually, but in the bonus video he mentions how he specifically wrote the music to leave a lot of space for the other guys to fill.

[Irock]

Even though MP was a founding member, he wasn't a main songwriter, being a drummer (I'd argue that generally speaking, a drummer is usually the most replaceable member of any band).

My point was more about your opinion of getting rid of TWO members at once, rather than getting rid of any individual person. At this point I think they've successfully proven to still be DT in every case of new members, but for the reasons given, I don't think JP is replaceable, and to get rid of the two main songwriters at the same time would be catastrophically detrimental to their sound imo.

But I do share your desire for more experimentation, I just don't think they need to replace members to achieve that. I think it's a matter of approach.

I think my opinion is that I'd like for Dream Theater to go back to experimenting with their music and changing their sound up, and that I'd rather JP and JR be replaced than have the band remain stagnant. I guess I kind of jumped the gun with my original comment.

[BlobVanDam]

Even though MP was a founding member, he wasn't a main songwriter, being a drummer (I'd argue that generally speaking, a drummer is usually the most replaceable member of any band).

My point was more about your opinion of getting rid of TWO members at once, rather than getting rid of any individual person. At this point I think they've successfully proven to still be DT in every case of new members, but for the reasons given, I don't think JP is replaceable, and to get rid of the two main songwriters at the same time would be catastrophically detrimental to their sound imo.

But I do share your desire for more experimentation, I just don't think they need to replace members to achieve that. I think it's a matter of approach.

I think my opinion is that I'd like for Dream Theater to go back to experimenting with their music and changing their sound up, and that I'd rather JP and JR be replaced than have the band remain stagnant. I guess I kind of jumped the gun with my original comment.

Ok, well that sentiment I can completely understand! And I would also like to hear more experimentation. But I like the members of DT far too much (with JR and JP perhaps being my favourites) to ever wish they'd be replaced.
In my own opinion, if you replaced both of those guys, it just wouldn't have that DT sound, because they're a lot of what I love about DT's sound. I want to hear their diversity, not to have someone else's sound in there, if that makes sense.

[rumborak]

My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.

[Bolsters]

My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.

I don't disagree, this is pretty much why I wanted them to take Minnemann in the first place.

[Lucidity]

I feel like the drum sound on DT12 is so genuinely terrible that I can't even appreciate whatever it is that Mike's playing on the drums, no matter how amazing it really is. It just sounds so bad that I can't help but wish for the other Mike's sound again 

I think Mike completely missed his chance to make his big entrance into the DT family with his performance on this album. It's exactly what I was hoping it wouldn't be.

[LTE3]

You're all lightweights. There's nothing wrong with the outro!

Yeah, I've always liked the outro! What a cool guitar work by Petrucci!

Someone was talking about Dream Theater's cover of Funeral For A Friend / Love Lies Bleeding!  I think it is their best cover so far. 
And because of that cover I started to pay more attention Elton John's work.

That is an awesome cover, and never really talked about.

[Grizz]

I feel like the drum sound on DT12 is so genuinely terrible that I can't even appreciate whatever it is that Mike's playing on the drums, no matter how amazing it really is. It just sounds so bad that I can't help but wish for the other Mike's sound again 

Do you honestly have a problem with anything besides the snare?

[Kotowboy]

The snare is slightly too loud but when MM does any solos - the whole kit sounds awesome.

[Kotowboy]

Oh boy, this should be controversial:

I want Jordan Rudess and John Petrucci to be replaced.

The two guys who write all the music and are responsible ( lol ) for DT sounding like DT.

If you replace Petrucci & Rudess - they will sound nothing like DT anymore and probably just some generic prog metal band.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

I like DT but damn, work on your fucking CD's. Every time I decide to listen to Images and Words, the first fucking song cuts off. I mean, do they not realize they left material off this album??? It could have been so much better but no, they got too impatient and released an unfinished CD!

[Kotowboy]

NOT SURE IF SRS

[theseoafs]

My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.

Even if he wanted to have a more organic drum sound, I'm sure he wouldn't have pushed for it anyway.  Mangini seems entirely content to just go with the flow and let DT be exactly the same band DT has always been.  I'm not surprised there's nothing extremely new or innovative in the drum department on this album (though I'm not complaining, since I love Mangini and the new album).

[BlobVanDam]

My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.

Even if he wanted to have a more organic drum sound, I'm sure he wouldn't have pushed for it anyway.  Mangini seems entirely content to just go with the flow and let DT be exactly the same band DT has always been.  I'm not surprised there's nothing extremely new or innovative in the drum department on this album (though I'm not complaining, since I love Mangini and the new album).

Also keep in mind this was MM's first album as part of the writing process, so it's understandable if he didn't want to push too hard, or interfere too much with the existing dynamic writing. On the next album he may feel like having more input, or maybe not.

[TheGreatPretender]

MM chose to go with a... Prog and Metal drum sound? ... Gee, I wonder why he'd do something like that. It's not like DT is a Prog Metal band or anything. 

[JayOctavarium]

MM chose to go with a... Prog and Metal drum sound? ... Gee, I wonder why he'd do something like that. It's not like DT is a Prog Metal band or anything. 

Shoulda been polka

[Lucidity]

I feel like the drum sound on DT12 is so genuinely terrible that I can't even appreciate whatever it is that Mike's playing on the drums, no matter how amazing it really is. It just sounds so bad that I can't help but wish for the other Mike's sound again 

Do you honestly have a problem with anything besides the snare?

Pretty much every sound to come from him on the album sounds really inorganic and artificial to me. Like the little splash cymbal entry in Along for the Ride; it's a nice musical idea, but it just sounds horrible.

[Dark Castle]

You should listen to the FLAC or vinyl then, everything he does booms and sounds great, the cymbals splash with life, and the snares snarl with ferociousness. (awful, cheesy descriptions ftw)

[Lucidity]

You should listen to the FLAC or vinyl then, everything he does booms and sounds great, the cymbals splash with life, and the snares snarl with ferociousness. (awful, cheesy descriptions ftw)

The only means I've listened to DT12 so far are on the computer though, and I don't have the CD yet, so my opinion may change when I get around to buying it.

[Crow]

Blind Faith has worse lyrics than TCOT by a few lightyears. Worst in the DT discography.
SDOIT as an album is inconsistent and the title track doesn't deserve half the praise it gets.
Illumination Theory is the worst DT epic.
The new album is second worst only to SC.
DT's songwriting has only gotten less technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.
The guest vocalist on Lines in the Sand ruins the entire rest of the song for me.
Awake is the best DT album.
SFAM has no top 10 songs even if it's one of their better albums.
Ruddess is DT's least interesting keyboardist.
ANTR is a better song than it gets credit for. TBOT as well.
Burning My Soul is so much worse than You Not Me it isn't even funny. I'm not laughing.

Can't think of any more horrible things to say about the band right now though.

[Kotowboy]

Can't think of any more horrible things to say about the band right now though.

Oh Go on.

[Daybreak at the lake]

Glass prison is horrible.

[Zook]

Oh come on now.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

There's no DT song called Glass Prison?

[j]

Blind Faith has worse lyrics than TCOT by a few lightyears. Worst in the DT discography.

TBOT exists.

SDOIT as an album is inconsistent and the title track doesn't deserve half the praise it gets.

True, but the first disc is spectacular.

DT's songwriting has only gotten less technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.

I don't know about "less technical," but they're definitely not very progressive at this point.  But they're hardly the only band in their genre which, ironically, is largely stagnant and safe.

SFAM has no top 10 songs even if it's one of their better albums.

No top 10 songs, I agree, but I consider it just a middle of the pack DT album.

-J

[Lucien]

DT's songwriting has only gottenless technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.

I don't know about "less technical," but they're definitely not very progressive at this point.  But they're hardly the only band in their genre which, ironically, is largely stagnant and safe.

"Progressive metal blends elements of heavy metal and progressive rock music, taking the loud "aggression", amplified electric guitar-driven sound of the former, with the more experimental, complex and "pseudo-classical" compositions of the latter. Progressive metal often utilises the conceptual themes associated with progressive rock."

Progressive rock: "It developed from psychedelic rock and originated, similarly to art rock, as an attempt to give greater artistic weight and credibility to rock music. Bands abandoned the short pop single in favor of instrumentation and compositional techniques more frequently associated with jazz or classical music in an effort to give rock music the same level of musical sophistication and critical respect. Songs were replaced by musical suites that often stretched to 20 or 40 minutes in length and contained symphonic influences, extended musical themes, fantasy-like ambiance and lyrics, and complex orchestrations."

Art rock:  "The concept of art rock has also sometimes been used to refer to the progressive rock bands which became popular in the 1970s. Allmusic states that "Progressive rock and art rock are two almost interchangeable terms describing a mostly British attempt to elevate rock music to new levels of artistic credibility."
"Art rock was a form of music which wanted to "extend the limits of rock & roll", and opted for a more experimental and conceptual outlook on music."


Every word here still describes Dream Theater, and has ALWAYS described Dream Theater. They are still EXTREMELY progressive. I don't even know how you can say they aren't. Dream Theater is an art.