The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)

[Metro]

Who the heck are Clutch?  I watched the video, and then YouTube kept playing their songs, and they look like they've been around forever.

Wait... you don't know Clutch? Stop EVERYTHING and go check them out, man!!!!

This. Go check out the album Psychic Warfare, bosk. That’s the album that got me hooked on them.

[Stadler]

New BPMD song/video revealed today: https://youtu.be/wirtQmNL4k4

What an odd song. Most of those songs are so odd. It's like they're trying to see how few records they can sell or something.

This makes "Toys..." seem like "Master Of Puppets".   Though I will say, Mike delivers on the drum track; vintage Appice, with a little Bonham thrown in there for good measure.   It would be far better as an instrumental though.

[cramx3]

Who the heck are Clutch?  I watched the video, and then YouTube kept playing their songs, and they look like they've been around forever.

Wait... you don't know Clutch? Stop EVERYTHING and go check them out, man!!!!

This. Go check out the album Psychic Warfare, bosk. That’s the album that got me hooked on them.

Clutch are pretty popular over here in the northeast, and while I've heard of them since I was young, I never listened until a few years ago. Not bad, but not my thing either.  Ended up seeing them though because Devin Townsend was the opener.  Good guitar music, but vocals kind of aren't for me.  Love his aggression live though.

[MoraWintersoul]

I kind of envy all of you who were able to not get too deep into OSI, I will have to suffer for a few more years until both Jim and Kevin wind down with the other stuff (lol, "other stuff", only two of my fave musical entities of all time, FW and Chroma Key) enough to have time to make a new record  wondering if Gavin will still be around for that one. Perhaps in the meanwhile Mike forgot about how he hated working with KM and would be willing to jump on a new one.

[gzarruk]

I could never get into OSI. Kev's vocals do absolutely nothing for me.

[The Letter M]

I'll hop in on this OSI conversation. Like some others, I really only ever go back to the debut album, mostly because of the more heavy and prog-metal sound of it compared to the later ones, but that isn't to say that I don't enjoy the other three albums.

As for the origin of the band, I don't think it was mentioned, but wasn't the project originally a way for Mike and Jim to work together after Jim could not commit to joining Mike for Transatlantic? I think Mike was in for it until he had to work with Kevin, and then things got messy after that first album, which probably explains his limited role in the second album, and eventual departure.

As for a fifth album, I wouldn't mind if Kevin and Jim worked with another drummer, kind of mix it up so that every two albums features a different drummer. Marco Minnemann would be a hot pick, but I think Thomas Lang would work too. I could also hear someone like Andy Edwards for Craig Blundell as well. But they could just as easily write programmed drums by themselves and just produce the album as a duo with a few guests.

I honestly doubt Mike would ever return to OSI, unless he knew it would lead to a tour where he could pull in a huge audience that would love to see Mike and Kevin play together live for the first time in over 25 years. Could you imagine that show?? I'm sure they would play a hefty amount of IAW/Awake material, and probably do "Space-Dye Vest", with Mike prefacing it's performance by saying something like "For the first time played live by the man who wrote it!".

-Marc.

-Marc.

[Setlist Scotty]

As for the origin of the band, I don't think it was mentioned, but wasn't the project originally a way for Mike and Jim to work together after Jim could not commit to joining Mike for Transatlantic?

Yes.

I think Mike was in for it until he had to work with Kevin, and then things got messy after that first album, which probably explains his limited role in the second album, and eventual departure.

Not exactly. Even after KM came on board and Daniel Gildenlow was given the boot, MP was still all in. What turned MP off completely was the way KM was a stick in the mud, unwilling to collaborate.

[MoraWintersoul]

I mean, Kevin was willing to collaborate... only within the context of his own vision of how the drums would end up inside the music

Again, wasn't the best deal for Mike. As a fan of OSI/Kevin I can say shit like, I wish he was able to loosen up a little and appreciate being part of a unique project that made him sound different than ever before. But in terms of a creative aspect, I guess for him it was a step below being a session drummer, even though for us, we can definitely hear the difference between the drummers and what they added to the project.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

As for the origin of the band, I don't think it was mentioned, but wasn't the project originally a way for Mike and Jim to work together after Jim could not commit to joining Mike for Transatlantic?

Yes.

I think Mike was in for it until he had to work with Kevin, and then things got messy after that first album, which probably explains his limited role in the second album, and eventual departure.

Not exactly. Even after KM came on board and Daniel Gildenlow was given the boot, MP was still all in. What turned MP off completely was the way KM was a stick in the mud, unwilling to collaborate.

I don't think that's really fair. Jim and Kevin were clearly on the same page musically with what they wanted the project to be after the first album, but Mike wasn't really into something that wasn't his typical prog-metal outfit.

Not saying Kevin was perfectly receptive to any of Mike's ideas or anything, but putting all the blame on Kevin as Mike tends to do doesn't really seem accurate.

[goo-goo]

Pre-orders up at Radiant

https://nealmorse.com/product/cov3r-to-cov3r-morse-portnoy-george/?attribute_pa_format=3-cd-digipak-in-slipcase

[MoraWintersoul]

putting all the blame on Kevin as Mike tends to do doesn't really seem accurate.

Yeah, thanks for saying that instead of me. There's a reason why MP hated working on these albums and Jim and Kevin loved it, it's that Jim and Kevin were willing to put their points of view into the OSI blender and see what came out, and MP was unwilling.

[Adami]

It's likely no one's fault. It's just a bad fit.

Not every artist can work with every other artist. Differing styles, visions, ethics, etc. Doesn't mean one was being unreasonable in anyway.

[The Letter M]

Listening to "The Thing That Never Was" from the first album, you really get a sense of what Jim and Mike wanted the project to be initially, and yeah, it was more prog-metal oriented. It still had some of those quieter moments as well, all of which were re-worked on the final album, but after the debut, I think Mike just realized how different the whole project ended up being.

I've always enjoyed the heavier and proggier side of things, which is why I probably enjoy the first OSI album more, especially since Mike was more able to be himself on that on album than on Free, where he was only a session musician anyway.

It's likely no one's fault. It's just a bad fit.

Not every artist can work with every other artist. Differing styles, visions, ethics, etc. Doesn't mean one was being unreasonable in anyway.

Seems likely, although I believe Mike was probably just unable to handle working with someone who had particularly strong ideas about the drum parts when Mike is pretty committed to his drumming.

-Marc.

[HOF]

The thing is, Mike had plenty of full on drum parts in the first OSI. The first two tracks were pretty much classic MP. The bonus disc also has one of my favorite MP moments, the cover of Set Controls for the Heart of the Sun.

I’m not gonna say Mike should have hung in with OSI if he didn’t like the direction, or clashed with Kevin, or whatever. Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

[MoraWintersoul]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

[HOF]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

[DTA]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

He doesn't give a shit about his drumming anymore and hasn't for many years. He just wants to get it done and move on. That segment in the Similitude Making-Of makes that pretty obvious...one of the most disappointing clips of him I've ever seen.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Do you have a link for this?
Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

He doesn't give a shit about his drumming anymore and hasn't for many years. He just wants to get it done and move on. That segment in the Similitude Making-Of makes that pretty obvious...one of the most disappointing clips of him I've ever seen.

[The Letter M]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

He doesn't give a shit about his drumming anymore and hasn't for many years. He just wants to get it done and move on. That segment in the Similitude Making-Of makes that pretty obvious...one of the most disappointing clips of him I've ever seen.

Do you have a link for this?

FTFY.

Also, I would like to know where in the doc this "disappointing clip" comes in? I'm scanning through the doc right now, but I'm curious as to where it actually is.

-Marc.

[DTA]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

He doesn't give a shit about his drumming anymore and hasn't for many years. He just wants to get it done and move on. That segment in the Similitude Making-Of makes that pretty obvious...one of the most disappointing clips of him I've ever seen.

Do you have a link for this?

FTFY.

Also, I would like to know where in the doc this "disappointing clip" comes in? I'm scanning through the doc right now, but I'm curious as to where it actually is.

-Marc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22mDDUizmxE - around the 7 minute mark

[bosk1]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

He doesn't give a shit about his drumming anymore and hasn't for many years. He just wants to get it done and move on. That segment in the Similitude Making-Of makes that pretty obvious...one of the most disappointing clips of him I've ever seen.

Do you have a link for this?

FTFY.

Also, I would like to know where in the doc this "disappointing clip" comes in? I'm scanning through the doc right now, but I'm curious as to where it actually is.

-Marc.

Doesn't exist.  Just typical DTA taking something out of context to make it into something it isn't, just as long as it makes MP look bad.  Anyone who has halfway listened to MP's playing throughout his career could never say he doesn't care about his drum parts.  The fact that, in the moment, he did not want to redo one drum part that he was happy with does not equate to him not caring about his drum parts (and, by the way, if you keep watching the doc, Mike says later on that after they slept on it, he had a change of heart about a lot of stuff that had happened the previous days). 

[RodrigoAltaf]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

He doesn't give a shit about his drumming anymore and hasn't for many years. He just wants to get it done and move on. That segment in the Similitude Making-Of makes that pretty obvious...one of the most disappointing clips of him I've ever seen.

Do you have a link for this?

FTFY.

Also, I would like to know where in the doc this "disappointing clip" comes in? I'm scanning through the doc right now, but I'm curious as to where it actually is.

-Marc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22mDDUizmxE - around the 7 minute mark

Thanks! And yeah, it's been more quantity over quality for him for a few years now, sadly.

[DTA]

Ultimately though, I do still think that first album holds up as one of the most interesting things he’s been a part of, and even a highlight of his own drumming.

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Yeah, I think sticking with a project like that might have stretched his playing in ways he doesn’t really get stretched when he just does his standard thing. That in itself is too bad.

He doesn't give a shit about his drumming anymore and hasn't for many years. He just wants to get it done and move on. That segment in the Similitude Making-Of makes that pretty obvious...one of the most disappointing clips of him I've ever seen.

Do you have a link for this?

FTFY.

Also, I would like to know where in the doc this "disappointing clip" comes in? I'm scanning through the doc right now, but I'm curious as to where it actually is.

-Marc.

Doesn't exist.  Just typical DTA taking something out of context to make it into something it isn't, just as long as it makes MP look bad.  Anyone who has halfway listened to MP's playing throughout his career could never say he doesn't care about his drum parts.  The fact that, in the moment, he did not want to redo one drum part that he was happy with does not equate to him not caring about his drum parts (and, by the way, if you keep watching the doc, Mike says later on that after they slept on it, he had a change of heart about a lot of stuff that had happened the previous days).

How is it out of context? It's clearly him saying "I don't care how it sounds...just fix it in mixing or replace the snare sounds digitally". Meanwhile Neal, who has created infinite solo albums and could phone it in at this point and still collect a paycheck, still wants to spend time redoing stuff just to make sure it sounds perfect. Musicians who are willing to settle are disappointing to me.

[Stadler]

One moment in time as a bellweather of his entire outlook on his 35 year career.  Okay; you're entitled to that point of view, but I for one, disagree.   He also, as noted, admitted that he reconsidered that position. 

[bosk1]

Exactly.  And "I like how this track sounds and don't want to redo it" or "I am complete satisfied with this, and as long as you like the playing, but just don't like the tuning on the snare, we can just fix that in post instead of redoing the entire thing" do not equate to not caring.  Those are just simply not the same thing at all. 

From a discussion in another thread, I got watching some videos from Jeff Porcaro last night.  And he said in a number of places that a LOT of the studio work he has done for a number of different artists consisted of him doing the drums for a song in one take and leaving it as-is.  And he CLEARLY has passion for his work and the end result.  Him doing a one-take, and realizing that it isn't perfect, but still not re-doing it, similarly does not equate to "not caring." 

[Setlist Scotty]

Not saying Kevin was perfectly receptive to any of Mike's ideas or anything, but putting all the blame on Kevin as Mike tends to do doesn't really seem accurate.

I think this is the key. While MP was happy to consider what KM brought to the table, KM didn't have the same consideration for MP. And that is unfortunate, especially since this started out as an MP/Jim Matheos collaboration. Had MP been allowed to give his input, OSI would have had some differences, sure, but I doubt MP would've been willing to walk away after only doing the one album with them.
 
 

There's a reason why MP hated working on these albums and Jim and Kevin loved it, it's that Jim and Kevin were willing to put their points of view into the OSI blender and see what came out, and MP was unwilling.

The problem is, there was no room for MP to be included in the blender. 
 
 

I believe Mike was probably just unable to handle working with someone who had particularly strong ideas about the drum parts when Mike is pretty committed to his drumming.

I don't think that's necessarily the case though. I remember reading an interview with MP, where, while he didn't like the fact that his drum tracks were sliced and diced, he could still see the artistic merit in what was done. But I think it was because all his other ideas were shutdown (no pun intended) that he was turned off by the whole thing.
 
 

Yeah, really all I'm saying is it's a shame he doesn't see it that way and that he would have preferred it to sound 100% MP instead. He can do MP anywhere (and he does, and does it well).

Again, from the interview that I read with him, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

[HOF]

Pre-orders up at Radiant

https://nealmorse.com/product/cov3r-to-cov3r-morse-portnoy-george/?attribute_pa_format=3-cd-digipak-in-slipcase

There’s a little snippet of “Baker Street” here:

https://morseportnoygeorge.lnk.to/Cov3rtoCov3r

Sounds pretty good actually, but I had no idea that songs was called Baker Street. One of those ubiquitous classic rock tunes I never bothered to find out anything about, including the band or title. It’s just that song with the sax hook.

[emtee]

My take is that Mike cares a great deal about his recorded performances. However, I don't think he puts the same emphasis on creating unique approaches and fills nowadays. He has his style and his bag of tricks and usually a very limited amount of time to record. It's just where he is now with his career.

The Baker Street clip didn't sound pleasing to my ears.

[KevShmev]

Oof, that clip of Baker Street was not one I enjoyed at all. I get that musicians put their own spins on songs they cover, but Portnoy bashing the crap out of his drums over the main sax lead seems like a really bad decision.

[Stadler]

Oh no.  That's one of my favorite songs of all time, and I remember getting the Foo Fighters version and being all excited until I heard they butchered it.   I'm on a call now so can't listen but I've got a bad feeling about this.

[Adami]

The MP approach is one of my favorite drum approaches. It works in a ton of ideas and songs.


That was not one of them. Pretty awful.

[HOF]

Jeeze, guys. If you’re gonna play a classic rock standard straight up, what’s the point? I guess the drums do seem a little busy, but the bass is cool at least.

[Adami]

Jeeze, guys. If you’re gonna play a classic rock standard straight up, what’s the point? I guess the drums do seem a little busy, but the bass is cool at least.

That’s a false dichotomy. I don’t like straight up covers. I like well done covers. The drums, for me, really don’t work there.

[Cool Chris]

Didn't sound bad at all (until the vocals started). Still not something I'd listen to.

[HOF]

Jeeze, guys. If you’re gonna play a classic rock standard straight up, what’s the point? I guess the drums do seem a little busy, but the bass is cool at least.

That’s a false dichotomy. I don’t like straight up covers. I like well done covers. The drums, for me, really don’t work there.

Sure, he could have used a different approach and still not done it straight up. I’m more trying not to have a strong opinion about it. I certainly didn’t expect him to break any new ground as far as his playing on this.