Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 255209 times)

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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1645 on: December 19, 2019, 10:19:33 AM »
I'm watching it on Dolby cinema  Which I personally think is better than IMAX. At least better than the setups I have seen here. The sound is fantastic in the Dolby theaters here.

Sometimes I watch a movie or listen to a record and wish it were mixed in Dobly.

Dublin?

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Online lonestar

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1646 on: December 19, 2019, 10:55:03 AM »
Just to confirm:  I do NOT plan to be at any of your local theaters.

You sure? I'll be in your area Monday through Thursday.....


8:45 on the giant screen for me....

IMAX or just a really big Screen?   We're doing the Dream Lounger's in the Super Screen DLX theater. Had to go 3D in order to get (5) seats continuous....center....back row but I don't mind 3D and the boys dig it also. 

Just big... I'll probably do IMAX when the heat cools down, I couldn't get a good seat for tonight's showing.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1647 on: December 19, 2019, 12:48:39 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, I think I read last night that the first Star Wars was ground-breaking in exposing Dubly to the masses.   The studio made it a requirement of the theaters to have Dubly if they wanted the movie.

EDIT:  Yep.  This source says the technology was in about 30 theaters before Star Wars, and in a thousand after.

Offline YtseJam

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1648 on: December 19, 2019, 04:32:08 PM »
So is it safe to post our reviews in this thread?

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1649 on: December 19, 2019, 04:47:13 PM »
So is it safe to post our reviews in this thread?

Spoiler free. Or put spoilers in tiny font. I think that’s what Bosk said.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1650 on: December 19, 2019, 05:59:24 PM »
Just Saw Rise Of Skywalker and no spoilers, just general thoughts:

I pretty much loved it. But that being said, yeah, it was definitely a mess and was ALL over the place. It bounces from location to location at  break neck speed, and that makes its hard to keep up. Throws a bunch of shit at the wall just to see what will stick. Some things do, some things really don't.

Its like a patchwork of so many different ideas, and things get cranked up to 11 just for the hell of it. But that being said I was entertained, and its a film I could enjoy watching from time to time.



Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1651 on: December 19, 2019, 11:31:11 PM »
Dug the heck out of it. As much as I like TLJ this movie makes me kind of wish JJ would have just done all three of them. You don’t need the force power of being able to foresee stuff to know that ‘fan service’ will be thrown around a lot but IMO it all works And is well done. Can’t wait to see it again tomorrow night. Once more folks have seen it I suspect the conversation can really start
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Offline faizoff

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1652 on: December 19, 2019, 11:40:15 PM »
I would rate the movie 9/10. Extremely entertaining through and through. Full on fan service and I totally loved every minute of it.

I am very content right now. Watching it in Dolby was an absolute treat.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1653 on: December 19, 2019, 11:44:16 PM »
I would rate the movie 9/10. Extremely entertaining through and through. Full on fan service and I totally loved every minute of it.

I am very content right now. Watching it in Dolby was an absolute treat.

100% agree. I do think that even with the moments where fan service came in to play.....it still managed to tell a story. It was packed to the brim for sure.....but it made sense at least. And our theater was rocking! 3D plus Dolby has me still amped.   :lol
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1654 on: December 19, 2019, 11:55:27 PM »
Just got back. It sucked. It really, really sucked.

Happy for the people that liked it, though, and I guess that's all that really matters.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1655 on: December 20, 2019, 12:42:19 AM »
Hmmmm, just got home....


As I say for all the Star Wars movies, it delivers SW entertainment in a way only SW can deliver it. Some really cool visuals, and pretty solid action sequences. Very, very busy movie, and pretty relentless with the action. It was all I was expecting out of a finale to a trilogy that maybe should have gone a completely different direction to begin with, but hey, hindsight is 20/20.

More when the real discussion begins.

Offline Zantera

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1656 on: December 20, 2019, 05:19:22 AM »
I enjoyed it for what it was but it definitely has some flaws. How much those flaws bother you will vary from person to person and how seriously you take Star Wars I think. For me the main issue at its core is the trilogy being poorly planned from the get go. You could tell Rian didn't like TFA and tried to change a lot in TLJ, and then you could tell JJ didn't like what TLJ did and tried to correct the course from his opening movie of the trilogy to get to the ending he envisioned.

Overall I thought it was more enjoyable than TLJ but not as good as TFA. It has some great moments but the pacing especially in the first half felt a bit rushed for me. If I had to make some analogy for my thoughts on the trilogy as a whole, I would say TFA was like a well prepared and seasoned turkey that was placed in the oven. TLJ burnt the turkey and RoS tried it's hardest to make an eatable meal out of the scraps.

I'd give it like a 7/10.

Offline faizoff

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1657 on: December 20, 2019, 05:49:27 AM »
I will say I think a lot of people are going to hate it. There are quite a few issues in the movie. The pacing if off the charts. It's like 4 movies in one and I really wished they made it longer like 3 hours or so. I going to read and see the reviews of those who weren't thrilled with it and I will probably agree with them all.

It's unfortunate but the whole trilogy is essentially very disconnected from each movie. They should have sat down in the beginning and come up with a grand plan and mapped out an entire story arc for the characters.

Alas it is what it is. I'm grateful for the 5 new movies that came out, it definitely could've been better for the trilogy but I enjoyed them all and each one of them is a 9/10 for me, warts and all.

On my recent rewatch I thought I wouldn't like ep 7 & 8 but it wasn't the case, the look and feel of the star wars universe was great in the new episodes and I enjoyed the visuals a whole bunch. Episode 9 had some amazing set pieces and was a fitting end story wise. I only wish the movie was longer.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1658 on: December 20, 2019, 06:56:09 AM »
Was it just me, or did it have a Game of Thrones, Season 8 feel to it?


It's unfortunate but the whole trilogy is essentially very disconnected from each movie. They should have sat down in the beginning and come up with a grand plan and mapped out an entire story arc for the characters.


This is definitely the core issue with the whole thing, and I think it's rather irresponsible of them (Disney) to take something of this magnitude and not plot it out properly.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1659 on: December 20, 2019, 07:02:37 AM »
RJ.....I don’t think this or the new trilogy comes anywhere close to S8 GOT level. I think the larger issue is what Faizoff said. Disney dropped the ball by not having a clear ‘plan’ for each movie.

Bottom line is what Zangara mentioned. You’re enjoyment of these movies is directly tied to what your expectations were/are fr them. I wanted a cool story with good visuals and some neat characters. For me, they delivered. I can understand that some folks will not feel the same. And that’s a bummer.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1660 on: December 20, 2019, 07:03:30 AM »
Was it just me, or did it have a Game of Thrones, Season 8 feel to it?

Had a lot of that feeling. I was debating this on the drive home; not sure if it's as bad as Season 8 was relative to the overall product (I think GoT by and large was an incredible show), but it has a lot of the very same problems. I thought it did some things pretty well though. Those visuals are amazing. One thing I'll never get sick of is watching spaceships appear after going light speed. And it looks REALLY cool in TROS.

Did anybody catch the part toward the end that seemed to almost copy Avengers: Endgame? Lol. Spoilers: When Daddy Palps says, "I am ALL the Sith!" and Rey says, even with a pause, "And I am... all the Jedi!"
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1661 on: December 20, 2019, 07:32:13 AM »
It bounces from location to location at  break neck speed, and that makes its hard to keep up.

Hmm...  Since the first part of Rogue One did the same thing and I loved it, this bodes well.  I like when you've got a bunch of locations and it actually makes the universe seem huge.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1662 on: December 20, 2019, 07:33:12 AM »
I mean, I still enjoyed GoT S8, but we all know the gaping issues. And Gary, I went in with those exact preconceptions, so I wasn't disappointed, as I said it delivered Star Wars level entertainment for sure.


Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1663 on: December 20, 2019, 07:38:20 AM »
Well, now that more and more people are seeing it, I guess I'm out of this thread until tomorrow night.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1664 on: December 20, 2019, 08:02:55 AM »
Couple things:

I think it might have served the story better had Rey died at the end and Ben survived? I know that was never gonna happen given how much she's been propped up but he was a 'true' Skywalker. I don't think the story suffers from it being the way it was but Ben being the in that final scene would've 'meant' more.

It'd have been neat to see Rey show up to Tatooine months later with a baby bump. That somehow....when Ben gave her his life force so she could live he knocked her up also.


As I said earlier.....my largest complaint is that Disney didn't have one writer or a collaboration of writers that mapped out these three films. As a whole I dig the trilogy and was entertained but I think they missed a chance to really do something 'special'. As satisfied as I am with the three movies and the conclusion it doesn't feel like they reached that realm of being 'eternal' so to speak. The OT is 'eternal'......for whatever reason(s).....they're at a level that this trilogy just couldn't find.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1665 on: December 20, 2019, 08:48:46 AM »
I kind of agree with the first part of your tiny script, and actually thought that was gonna happen in the moment.



The second part is just silly. :p

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1666 on: December 20, 2019, 08:54:36 AM »
My favorite part of the movie was when Baby Yoda force choked the entire First Order. That kid's going places.






No, he is not actually in the movie, nobody freak out.  :lol
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1667 on: December 20, 2019, 09:10:32 AM »
Baby Yoda has a new challanger:  Babu Frik





I loved that guy

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1668 on: December 20, 2019, 09:25:11 AM »
I've been processing since last night and I'm going to have to see it again to form a strong opinion either way. After I see it again I'll post my new rankings. Now that I know how the story unfolds I really want to focus on the details, especially the score.

Cons:
- I agree with what most have said, the story would have benefited a ton from even another 5-10 minutes. This was the biggest issue overall for me. The first part just felt clunky.
- I also agree that Disney's idea to originally have 3 different directors direct a 3 part arc with no pre-planning was not a smart thing. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm glad they brought back JJ to finish it. Honestly, I think they did a great job considering the situation. Could it have been better. Yes, but it is what it is. This really is the Return of the Jedi of this trilogy. Empire was a fantastic film and felt different than ANH and RotJ. This is how that feels too. The original trilogy has a lot of the same problems as the new trilogy, people just choose to ignore them for some reason.
- No physical Ahsoka cameo
- We never got to hear how Maz got Luke's saber
-Finn. His whole arc was the most bungled from 8 to 9. He really was just there and I think they should have had him sacrifice himself

Pros:
- Daisy Ridley. Rey may be my new favorite Star Wars character. Plus, she is super foxy.
- The acting was really good all around.
- Poe was fantastic.
- Zorii Bliss was my favorite of the new characters.

Missed Opportunity
- How cool would it have been if at the end when Rey and the Emperor and they say "I'm all the Sith/Jedi" that the force ghosts of the dead sith and jedi showed up behind them? Man that would have been epic and a cool call back to the past films.

Overall, after one viewing I'd give it a 3.5/5. I think it may jump up to a 4 after a second viewing but I think it will still end up being my least favorite of this trilogy.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1669 on: December 20, 2019, 09:28:52 AM »
So last night was TFA on my rewatch. I gotta say.....I've changed my perspective on it this time around. Though not extremely.

I'd say the acting is actually really good (for these kinds of movies). The casting was spot on.

First time I watched it, I was predisposed to hate Adam Driver. I only knew him from a few episodes of Girls and I hated him. But since then? I've come to LOVE Adam Driver. So watching it without that dislike for him helped, since his character is my favorite from the new trilogy (thus far).

But it's cool watching these without being a huge diehard Star Wars fan. I think when you're SUCH a huge fan of a series (like I am with Marvel), it makes it harder to watch it without being predisposed to loving it no matter what. So the flaws, I can notice them but not have it kill my childhood or challenge my love of anything.

Over all though? The movie is a good fun time but not very well written. I'd say it's about 20% good movie, 20% horribly written movie, and 40% love letter to classic Star Wars. The problem is, I don't want my Star Wars to be a love letter to Star Wars, I just want it to be a good addition to the franchise. I get that JJ is a giant SW fan and wants to show is love for it, but it just took up SO much time and attention that it kept taking me out of things.

Also, this movie is just not (overall) very well written, from a story perspective. There's amazing elements....AMAZING elements, but the story is just not very well constructed. Star Wars is a very simple story, and I feel like the new trilogy is trying to be so complicated and complex at times that it doesn't work for me.

But it's a fun popcorn flick that just lacks any of the stuff that made SW huge in the first place. So, much like the prequels, I feel like TFA's role in history will only be its connection to the OT, and not on its own merits.


So I don't like it any more or less than I did before, but I liked some aspects more, and some way less.

I really wish they had written Poe and Finn and Rey better, cause those actors performances are the only things making them great. The writing just isn't there for them. With the possible exception of Finn's origins as a Storm Trooper, but even that is pretty shallowly presented.

Kylo is still my favorite character.

Tonight is The Last Jedi and tomorrow is TROS. Should be interesting.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1670 on: December 20, 2019, 09:45:00 AM »
I will also add this.....

This trilogy is as much...maybe even more about Kylo Ren's redemption and journey back to the 'light' side as it is Rey's coming in to her own. Out of the three movies Ren/Ben is the most developed and explored and challenged and well acted. In fact, the more I think about it....I think they missed the opportunity to have Ben Solo be the 'last man standing' so to speak. I think it'd have been just fine and fitting to have Rey die taking out her evil Grandpa....and then have Ben survive, alive on Tatooine as 'the Last Skywalker'.

Honestly, I think they avoided that scenario because they'd have caught crap for killing off the strong 'woman' lead.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 10:02:23 AM by gmillerdrake »
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1671 on: December 20, 2019, 09:47:08 AM »
Can I just say that I really appreciate you guys keeping the spoilers to tiny font? It's nice to still be able to post my other reviews and read general thoughts and not have to worry about having the movie ruined for me.

So thank you, truly!
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1672 on: December 20, 2019, 09:59:46 AM »
The audience at my theater loved Babu Frik. Gotta admit he made me laugh a few times.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1673 on: December 20, 2019, 09:59:58 AM »
I will also add this.....

This trilogy is as much...maybe even more about Kylo Ren's redemption and journey back to the 'light' side as it is Rey's coming in to her own. Out of the three movies Ren/Ben is the most developed and explored and challenged and well acted. In fact, the more I think about it....I think they missed the opportunity to have Ben Solo be the 'last man standing' so to speak. I think it'd have been just fine and fitting to have Rey die taking out her evil Grandpa....and then have Ben survive, alive on Tatooine as 'the Last Skywalker'.

Honestly, I think they avoided that scenario because they'd have caught crap for killing off the strong 'woman' lead.


Good point. Since this is the Skywalker saga I'm surprised they didn't make Rey a "true" skywalker. I'm not in love with her being a Palapatine, but I'm guessing no one guessed that. Maybe they're setting up another movie or game or something to explore that more? She could have been a clone built from Skywalker DNA. She could have been Luke's daughter. I get making her a Palapatine creates conflict for her but I'm not sold yet. Maybe another viewing will fix that. Though, I guess it's cool that she took on the name to continue the legacy.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1674 on: December 20, 2019, 10:00:41 AM »
The audience at my theater loved Babu Frik. Gotta admit he made me laugh a few times.

He was really funny. And so was C-3PO. Best use of him since Empire.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1675 on: December 20, 2019, 10:04:10 AM »
The audience at my theater loved Babu Frik. Gotta admit he made me laugh a few times.

He was really funny. And so was C-3PO. Best use of him since Empire.

Totally agree. C3PO was genuinely funny and they used him well.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1676 on: December 20, 2019, 11:07:18 AM »
Not reading any posts until I can see ROS tomorrow.  Just popped back in to continue my episode recaps.

Ep. V - The Empire Strikes Back:

I mentioned that, with A New Hope, even though I liked it when I first saw it as a kid, I didn't love it.  The slow pacing just didn't hold my attention as thoroughly as my 7-year-old self needed in order to initially take it to that level.  That kind of changed in the months that followed.  All the toys, the novelization, the comics, and all the hype about it made me a fan more than seeing it at the drive-in when it was released.  And I was so excited when they began talking about a sequel.  Yet, for some reason, by the time they got around to releasing Empire, my fandom had waned a bit, and I never made it a priority to get to the theater to see it.  At 10 years old, it was a major endeavor to get to the movie theater myself, which involved walking a pretty long distance to get to a bus stop that would then take me the long bus ride to the nearest theater, and so on.  And my parents weren't into it, so it wasn't on their radar.  Beyond that, I can't really explain why, but it is what it is.  But I did of course see it eventually and rightly loved it.

Three things that worked:
-"I am your father" has to be #1.  I don't know what else needs to be said.
-Better pacing.  It just flows a lot better than Ep. IV.
-"Wait...so the good guys don't win???  What?  I'm so confused about how I feel!"  Yeah.  Perfect ending.
-Bonus (yes, I know this makes 4--it's MY post, so shut up):  Force choking the living daylights out of every officer who failed.  This set up so many awesome moments that made Vader's character and made this film as a whole.

Three things that didn't:
-Luke's training was too short.  It was, what, just a few days at most?  And then he is able to duel Vader and not die within seconds?  (yeah, I know Vader was just toying with him and intentionally not mopping the floor with him while he tried to turn him, but still)  As I've mentioned a bunch of times in connection with not only these films, but others as well, there's no reason why things can't just be stretched out over more time.  Just have sort of a montage or something that shows a longer passage of time without unnecessarily stretching out the film itself.  The precedent was unfortunately set here for things that should take a long time happening too instantaneously.  Not a huge deal, but an ongoing pet peeve that is more irritating than it should be because it is so easy to fix.
-C3PO as comic relief.  He was sort of that in IV, but to a much lesser extent.  And while this film wasn't over the top, it started to move that direction, which would later result in a lot of people rolling their eyes whenever 3PO was onscreen in other films that followed.
-I struggle to come up with a third.  Um...making Luke's fall through the ventilation shaft a bit more believable?  Maybe?  :dunno:

Minor tweaks that could have made it better:  Not much I can say, other than maybe the VERY minor tweaks suggested with Luke's training and 3PO not being silly.  This film is just great.  Very satisfying installment in the saga that left most of us eagerly anticipating what would happen next.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1677 on: December 20, 2019, 11:23:04 AM »
I literally watched TESB last night with my daughter and wife.   I have to say we're in agreement here.  EASILY four or five times my daughter said "Wha?   They've only known each other/met/trained for like three days and they're already in love/best friends/Jedi Master?!?!"  (She also included the Han/Leia plot line in that.  She went from hating him to making out in the Millenium Falcon to "I love you!" in front of her dad in the space of like 18 hours.   

I am also not a fan of the humor.  I don't understand that blockbuster requirement to have catch phrases and to have side-splitting vaudevillian humor.  I guess it's me, but it almost always falls flat to me.  I don't usually laugh, and I don't think I've ever said "Hasta la vista, babay!" in real life.   (Exceptions:  "I know", or when Leia turns off 3PO in the Falcon when they're in the asteroid field.)

Offline Grappler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1678 on: December 20, 2019, 11:35:59 AM »
Ep. V - The Empire Strikes Back:
Three things that didn't:
-Luke's training was too short.  It was, what, just a few days at most?  And then he is able to duel Vader and not die within seconds?  (yeah, I know Vader was just toying with him and intentionally not mopping the floor with him while he tried to turn him, but still)  As I've mentioned a bunch of times in connection with not only these films, but others as well, there's no reason why things can't just be stretched out over more time.  Just have sort of a montage or something that shows a longer passage of time without unnecessarily stretching out the film itself.  The precedent was unfortunately set here for things that should take a long time happening too instantaneously.  Not a huge deal, but an ongoing pet peeve that is more irritating than it should be because it is so easy to fix.
-C3PO as comic relief.  He was sort of that in IV, but to a much lesser extent.  And while this film wasn't over the top, it started to move that direction, which would later result in a lot of people rolling their eyes whenever 3PO was onscreen in other films that followed.
-I struggle to come up with a third.  Um...making Luke's fall through the ventilation shaft a bit more believable?  Maybe?  :dunno:


I think the short scenes of Luke's training works to the story's advantage.  Yoda's telling him not to leave because his training is incomplete and he's not ready to face Vader.  Well duh, he's barely been there long enough to really learn anything at all, outside of moving a few stones.  ROTJ occurs later in time, giving Luke additional time to hone his Jedi skills, making his improvement much more believable.

His fall into the shaft, I attribute to him reaching out with the Force for guidance into a side-chute.  Either that or he was pulled by an air flow.  They were limited with the special effects of the time, which was usually a matte painting for that type of shot.


Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1679 on: December 20, 2019, 11:42:48 AM »
@Stadler:

Just popped in to take a look at whether your post was in response to mine.  And it is!  :D 

The Han/Leia thing didn't phase me at all.  I mean, one interpretation, which is how I've pretty much always read it, is that she has already fallen for him at the beginning of the film.  But outward attitude is what it is for a variety of reasons.  You may select any number of these choices:
-She knows she has feelings for him, but is conflicted and doesn't know/understand how she feels.
-She doesn't think it is proper to outwardly express her feelings because of her position.
-She doesn't think it is proper to outwardly express her feelings because she also has some kind of feelings for Luke and doesn't yet know he is her brother, and feels conflicted about that.
-She and Han both have fiery personalities, so any feelings of affection are sometimes going to also manifest in emotional outbursts arising from friction.
-She doesn't know how to express her feelings because, despite being a very capable woman and leader, she just doesn't have a lot of experience with interpersonal intimacy.
-Other

Any of those, or any combination, easily fall away gradually through the events they experience together in the course of the film in a way I don't find unrealistic at all.  YMMV.

I think the short scenes of Luke's training works to the story's advantage.  Yoda's telling him not to leave because his training is incomplete and he's not ready to face Vader.  Well duh, he's barely been there long enough to really learn anything at all, outside of moving a few stones.  ROTJ occurs later in time, giving Luke additional time to hone his Jedi skills, making his improvement much more believable.

I get what you are saying.  But I still have a hard time overlooking it.  The thing is, he never goes back.  From the little time he got with Yoda in this film, he shouldn't really have anything to build on and hone to get him to the level he got to in ROTJ.  If he had gotten more here, it would be more believable that he could have continued to build on that on his own and increase his powers.  But when he leaves Yoda in Empire, he just doesn't know much.  If he had trained longer, he would at least have knowledge to build on to hone his skills.  :dunno:

His fall into the shaft, I attribute to him reaching out with the Force for guidance into a side-chute.  Either that or he was pulled by an air flow.  They were limited with the special effects of the time, which was usually a matte painting for that type of shot.

Yeah, I can buy that.  Still feels like a bit of a stretch.  But it wasn't a major issue for me anyway.  Like I said, I even struggle to come up with that as a real strong criticism.  :lol
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