Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Mosh]

Except during the SC sessions right?

[TheGreatPretender]

I've always thought JLB's always looked really fat.

And his hair is, like, so last year!

[erwinrafael]

I have another controversial opinion. Awake aged much better than IaW. I rarely listen to IaW now and when I do, I still enjoy it but with the awareness that it sounds so much like a late 80s early 90s record. It wears the timestamp of its era. LtL in particular sounds so dated, it's very much a product of its time.

Maybe the album itself yeah, definitely has a distinct 90s sound, as it's mixed and mastered and all that. But the songs themselves, I think aged much better than on Awake. For example, hearing them live, they don't sound any more dated than anything on Awake. Metropolis, I would say has stood the test of time better than any other DT song from the 90s.

Metropolis is indeed one song that does not sound dated yet. But songs like Another Day, Take The Time, and the DTF-popular Learning to Live sound so dated that i half expect to see Dennis Franz, Jimmy Smits and Lou Diamond Phillips to appear on my TV screen while I listen to these songs.  The much ballyhooed catchy bass line of JM in LtL, for example, has a very late 1980s feel to it.

Anyway, I grew up on cassette tapes. I collected DT in tapes up to ToT, so I grew accsutomed to listening to whole albums at a time, not on a per song basis. So when I said I&W sounded dated compared to Awake, I am talking about listening to the album as a whole.

What's the problem with the keys on 6:00? The only "weak" portion I can think of is the chorus, but I think it's more of the function of the chorus being the weak portion of the song. The keys in the intro are great, jived sonwell with the groove set by MP.

I just find them annoying. The composition is okay, and if anything, I like the organs on the Chorus, it's the opening riff where they keys are just grating.

Personally, I found the unique keys in Awake as very appropriate in the context of the songs. That is why I stated that they are the best use of keys in the album, because they fit the songs. For example, the "grating" intro key riff in 6:00 fits so well because it is about KM waking up, feeling irritated that he has to go through this thing that he does not want to do anymore.

"Six o'clock the siren kicks him from a dream
Tries to shake it off but it just won't stop
Can't find the strength but he's got promises to keep
And wood to chop before he sleeps...

He's in the parking lot and he's just sitting in his car
It's nine o'clock but he can't get out
He lights a cigarette
And turns the music down
But just can't seem to shake that sound"

The "grating" riff really makes you feel that! That freaking siren, that sound you can not shake off.

The keys in the album play like that. It's uplifting when it needs to (Lifting Shadows). It's enveloping, fluid, aggressive (Caught In A Web). It's a parody (Erotomania). It's haunting (Mirror), mocking (Lie), lethargic (Space Dye Vest). It's depressed, hurt, angry, trying to move on (Scarred). Surely it would not sound like Images and Words, that saccharinely bright and hopeful record.

[TheGreatPretender]

Metropolis is indeed one song that does not sound dated yet. But songs like Another Day, Take The Time, and the DTF-popular Learning to Live sound so dated that i half expect to see Dennis Franz, Jimmy Smits and Lou Diamond Phillips to appear on my TV screen while I listen to these songs.  The much ballyhooed catchy bass line of JM in LtL, for example, has a very late 1980s feel to it.

Learning to Live... Honestly, I think if they changed up the keyboards at the beginning, and used a more modern sound for them, like something more chimy... Heck, even the stuff that JR has been using live isn't that bad. It also does a good job of helping the song sound more fresh and timeless.

Personally, I found the unique keys in Awake as very appropriate in the context of the songs. That is why I stated that they are the best use of keys in the album, because they fit the songs. For example, the "grating" intro key riff in 6:00 fits so well because it is about KM waking up, feeling irritated that he has to go through this thing that he does not want to do anymore.

"Six o'clock the siren kicks him from a dream
Tries to shake it off but it just won't stop
Can't find the strength but he's got promises to keep
And wood to chop before he sleeps...

He's in the parking lot and he's just sitting in his car
It's nine o'clock but he can't get out
He lights a cigarette
And turns the music down
But just can't seem to shake that sound"

The "grating" riff really makes you feel that! That freaking siren, that sound you can not shake off.

The keys in the album play like that. It's uplifting when it needs to (Lifting Shadows). It's enveloping, fluid, aggressive (Caught In A Web). It's a parody (Erotomania). It's haunting (Mirror), mocking (Lie), lethargic (Space Dye Vest). It's depressed, hurt, angry, trying to move on (Scarred). Surely it would not sound like Images and Words, that saccharinely bright and hopeful record.

Yeaaah, but there's got to be a line between making an emotional statement regarding the subject matter, and making the actual music pleasant.

For example, I get that Grunge was supposed to be about anger and angst and a great outlet for that sort of thing. But taking an album like In Utero by Nirvana for example, some of the songs on it, like Scentless Apprentice, are down right unlistenable thanks to the vocals. Maybe it accurately portrays his emotional state in the song, but if it sounds like a piece of shit, then I don't want to listen to it. Great, you got your idea across, that's the first and last time I will ever listen to the song. Thanks.

Thankfully nothing on Awake is nearly that bad.

[rumborak]

Controversial statement time: I think to some degree, DT has an "aging problem". What I mean by that is, because they continue writing the same style of music (fast, complex runs and solos, difficult vocal lines), they're not giving themselves an exit path for when their age will take its toll, when they can no longer play it.
And to be honest, I think that already started. I was listening to the BTFW bootleg at work the other day, and the performance has been solidly "corrected" from beginning to end. Most of James' singing was pitch corrected, and some stuff was overdubbed. And both JP and JR solos have been overdubbed in spots. And, of course the numerous backing tracks that get piped in.
I must say, as much as I enjoyed watching BTFW, the knowledge that the sound isn't really what they performed that night, bugs me. And these "cosmetic fixes" will only become more prominent over time. I think honestly, Chaos in Motion was one of the most honest DVDs they put out, in terms of what the performances really sound like.

[JiM-Xtreme]

Personally, I found the unique keys in Awake as very appropriate in the context of the songs. That is why I stated that they are the best use of keys in the album, because they fit the songs. For example, the "grating" intro key riff in 6:00 fits so well because it is about KM waking up, feeling irritated that he has to go through this thing that he does not want to do anymore.

lyrics

The "grating" riff really makes you feel that! That freaking siren, that sound you can not shake off.

This is a really clever assessment, never thought of it this way before

[Sycsa]

Controversial statement time: I think to some degree, DT has an "aging problem". What I mean by that is, because they continue writing the same style of music (fast, complex runs and solos, difficult vocal lines), they're not giving themselves an exit path for when their age will take its toll, when they can no longer play it.
And to be honest, I think that already started. I was listening to the BTFW bootleg at work the other day, and the performance has been solidly "corrected" from beginning to end. Most of James' singing was pitch corrected, and some stuff was overdubbed. And both JP and JR solos have been overdubbed in spots. And, of course the numerous backing tracks that get piped in.
I must say, as much as I enjoyed watching BTFW, the knowledge that the sound isn't really what they performed that night, bugs me. And these "cosmetic fixes" will only become more prominent over time. I think honestly, Chaos in Motion was one of the most honest DVDs they put out, in terms of what the performances really sound like.

I got that feeling while listening to bootlegs and hearing JP flub his solo in The Enemy Inside time and time again. I'm thinking "how come he can't play his most recent solo?" There' also a flip side to that, since it's quite positive and admirable that they're still pushing themselves and writing songs on their limit. I don't think they should go in the studio saying: "yeah, let's take it down a notch, so we can play this stuff 15 years from now". On the contrary, they should always come up with stuff that inspires and challenges them. It's what makes it interesting for everyone. I also can't remember hearing a live version of The Glass Prison where JP could do justice to the arpeggios at the beginning, so it's not necessarily an aging thing, they always got a bit ahead of themselves in the studio. I listened to the bootlegs as well and I don't find the corrections jarring or excessive at all. They're only human.

[nikatapi]

I also can't remember hearing a live version of The Glass Prison where JP could do justice to the arpeggios at the beginning, so it's not necessarily an aging thing, they always got a bit ahead of themselves in the studio.

Well, that was also because MP used to speed up the song quite a lot, so in the original tempo i'm sure JP could handle the arpeggios much better.

As far as an aging problem, i think the problem is mostly the mentality, this so focused and predefined "DT sound" that we keep hearing, that keeps them locked in a position where the music starts to feel samey and not so fresh anymore. I hoped that JR would step up and be more upfront, he has the talent and the musical variety to keep things interesting, but he seems to be ok in his (mostly unchallenging) role.
I have to say though, that the intro jam to Trial Of Tears sounded pretty good, and more along the lines of what i think is missing from DT, and that is more atmosphere, and less metal with epic elements.

There are glimpses of experimentation on DT12, like the syncopated riff on IT with only bass and drums, as well as the easter egg on the same song, but on the grand scheme it's just not enough.

[TheGreatPretender]

Controversial statement time: I think to some degree, DT has an "aging problem". What I mean by that is, because they continue writing the same style of music (fast, complex runs and solos, difficult vocal lines), they're not giving themselves an exit path for when their age will take its toll, when they can no longer play it.

I get what you're saying, and I thought about it too. But honestly, I think that's their problem to deal with. I mean, when the time comes, and their fingers start, I don't know, creaking or something when they play, they will have some options ahead of them. Either eliminate the more complex pieces from their setlists, and stick to their simpler songs, which I mean, they do have the simpler songs, so it's not like ALL of their material is relatively complex. Another thing they could do is slow down their complex tunes to make them easier to play. Didn't they play a couple of the songs slower on the last tour?

Another option for them, and I honestly think this would be a great option, and something very interesting, is to change the music itself. Back in the 90s, on occasion, they'd play one of their songs and JP or whoever the Keyboard player at the time happened to be, would change up the solo. Still have it in the same style, mood, but something new and different. And it certainly made the listens more interesting, because it's like, "Whoa, I didn't see that coming. That sounds cool!"
So if they change their more complex solos to something a little different, and not as complex, I won't be bothered by it.

I must say, as much as I enjoyed watching BTFW, the knowledge that the sound isn't really what they performed that night, bugs me.

See, this doesn't really bother me because,  while I haven't listned to the bootleg of BTFW, I did see them live just a month prior to that show, and I thought they played everything absolutely flawlessly, and JLB was dead on on all the songs. Now, maybe there were mistakes made and I just didn't notice them, but hell, if I don't notice them, then it doesn't take away from my enjoyment, so who cares?

[MoraWintersoul]

Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.

Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.

Check out Planet X.

Absolutely, why is this even an issue?

If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake.

Y'all, there's more to keyboards than whether the patch is "pleasant" or not. Not that I'm the authority, but I think this debate is the same as the "should have James used less growly vocals", some think the style calls for it and some find it obnoxious (although not a lot on this forum do). I thought the point of Awake was to be dark, grating and a little more low-key than IAW. When the songs request it, they all go for the prettified soundscapes.

[TheGreatPretender]

Y'all, there's more to keyboards than whether the patch is "pleasant" or not. Not that I'm the authority, but I think this debate is the same as the "should have James used less growly vocals", some think the style calls for it and some find it obnoxious (although not a lot on this forum do). I thought the point of Awake was to be dark, grating and a little more low-key than IAW. When the songs request it, they all go for the prettified soundscapes.

Hey, if people don't like James' gritty vocals, they're well within their rights to complain about it and make their claim for why Awake would be a better album with cleaner vocals.

Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.

Check out Planet X.

I heard Planet X, though it's been a while. I remember it being pretty impressive, but I guess I just assumed he's always had it in him, and never considered it to be him growing and getting better, haha. Again, my memory may not serve too well, but from what I remember, I still don't think I'd put him at JR's, or DT's most complex level.

[MoraWintersoul]

Hey, if people don't like James' gritty vocals, they're well within their rights to complain about it and make their claim for why Awake would be a better album with cleaner vocals.

Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.

Yeah, I know, I was just making a comparison point I haven't seen yet

Personally, I think the music that makes you the right (tiny!) amount of mildly uncomfortable at times provokes the best emotional response. Various metal bands thread this thin line all the time and come up with fantastic results, but it depends on the genre.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

For example, I'm pretty sure the entire point of the Dillinger Escape Plan is to be grating.

[erwinrafael]

Y'all, there's more to keyboards than whether the patch is "pleasant" or not. Not that I'm the authority, but I think this debate is the same as the "should have James used less growly vocals", some think the style calls for it and some find it obnoxious (although not a lot on this forum do). I thought the point of Awake was to be dark, grating and a little more low-key than IAW. When the songs request it, they all go for the prettified soundscapes.

Hey, if people don't like James' gritty vocals, they're well within their rights to complain about it and make their claim for why Awake would be a better album with cleaner vocals.

Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.

Well, it depends I guess on one's appreciation of the "grating" sounds, in seeing music in what sometimes appears like noise. KM's keys on 6:00 is nowhere near the "grating" sound of JP's lead in Misunderstood, or a lot of the late work of The Beatles, or the soundscapes used by Sonic Youth, all of which I actually love.

[TheGreatPretender]

But JP's tone on Misunderstood doesn't sound like they just cranked the Treble on the EQ and turned it up to the max. It's partially Kevin's choice of keys that's the problem, but a part of it is definitely the mix, I'd say.

We were talking about the word "shrill" in the other thread, well, shrill is exactly how I would describe the keyboards on Awake.

[bosk1]

I don't care what it was, I just don't like it.  And that's fine.  Anyone who does like it is just as entitled to their opinion as I am to mine.

[King Postwhore]

I don't care what it was, I just don't like it.  And that's fine.  Anyone who does like it is just as entitled to their opinion as I am to mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f771wXxw2vs

[TheGreatPretender]

My controversial opinion for the night:

I've been listening to a lot of DT live footage lately, just going through the bootlegs and stuff in chronological order, and I realized that I really find that little thing MP did during his drum solos quite annoying.
The thing where he plays the pattern, and then has the audience clap the pattern. I mean, I get that it kind of brings the excitement level up and calls up on some audience participation, and that's cool. But it's the same damn pattern every time, no matter where he played! I just wish he changed it up every once in a while. Otherwise, as soon as a Mike Portnoy solo comes on, you just know that, "Dum-dum-dum. Dum-dum-dum. Dum-dum-dum. Dum." pattern is coming. And it's fine if it's the first time a fan hears something like that, but now it's been immortalized on so many bootlegs and releases that I really can't blame James for prioritizing his Chai Latte over the drum solo.

[425]

Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.

I agree with you 100%, which is part of why I've been moving away from metal and from some "experimental" forms of music for a little while now. I listen to music for emotions and storytelling, yes, but to me melody is primary and listenability is very important as well. This is also why Images and Words is my clear favorite DT album (I agree with what you said about it being "clean and pristine, and laced with keyboards") and why I absolutely hate the way they chose to end Misunderstood, which is otherwise a good song. I find Awake listenable in most places, but I agree that KM did some weird stuff that didn't really work some of the time.

[TheGreatPretender]

I agree with you 100%, which is part of why I've been moving away from metal and from some "experimental" forms of music for a little while now. I listen to music for emotions and storytelling, yes, but to me melody is primary and listenability is very important as well. This is also why Images and Words is my clear favorite DT album (I agree with what you said about it being "clean and pristine, and laced with keyboards") and why I absolutely hate the way they chose to end Misunderstood, which is otherwise a good song. I find Awake listenable in most places, but I agree that KM did some weird stuff that didn't really work some of the time.

Well, when it comes to Misunderstood, it's never bothered me, but hey, there's always the Single Edit. 

[adastra]

Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.

Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.

Check out Planet X.

Holy shit o.o I'm listening to Black Utopia.
I can only imagine how amazing DT _could_ be with Derek nowadays!  (I'm not saying "would" because you can never be sure  )

[hefdaddy42]

I'm not saying that Derek is necessarily on JR's level.  But if something were to happen to JR, or he decided he didn't want to do it anymore, but the rest of the band wanted to continue, Derek wouldn't be  a bad guy to call.

Whether he would want to do it or not is a whole other story.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm not saying that Derek is necessarily on JR's level.  But if something were to happen to JR, or he decided he didn't want to do it anymore, but the rest of the band wanted to continue, Derek wouldn't be  a bad guy to call.

Whether he would want to do it or not is a whole other story.

Yeah, exactly. Either way, it's been so long that I don't think their first thought would be, "What's Derek doing these days?"

[hefdaddy42]

Depends.  Maybe not, if JR just quit.

If he had an injury or an illness, and it was just a fill-in, short-term gig to help out old friends, then maybe.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't know. I mean, I could be wrong, but I haven't read anything that would indicate that they even stayed in touch with Derek. If they have, then yeah, totally, but as far as I knew, they were relatively estranged at this point.

[hefdaddy42]

When he sat in with them for WDADRU, they didn't look estranged.  And he and the band have each said awesome things about each other since.  I have never had any sense of bad blood between them whatsoever.

[TheGreatPretender]

When he sat in with them for WDADRU, they didn't look estranged.  And he and the band have each said awesome things about each other since.  I have never had any sense of bad blood between them whatsoever.

No, I'm not saying bad blood. But it doesn't seem like they keep in touch all that much.

[425]

A reply to the idea that was being thrown around earlier that Jordan doesn't care that much about DT's music and is mostly in the band to boost the popularity of his other projects: This part from the DTF live interview with the band from about a year ago (in which Jordan is actually answering the question asked by me, which was "what do you remember about the first time you heard a song or album from Dream Theater?", you can scroll back 30 or so seconds to hear Mike Mangini's answer) would seem to contradict that a bit.

[TAC]

I could see Derek coming back. I mean he was kicked out for Jordan Fuc#ing Rudess. I think he gets that. If there's one thing that has been clear since Derek left, it's that he has class and perspective.

[bosk1]

I could see Derek coming back. I mean he was kicked out for Jordan Fuc#ing Rudess. I think he gets that. If there's one thing that has been clear since Derek left, it's that he has class and perspective.

Absolutely.  Again, I think it has been made crystal clear that there is no bad blood.  First off, he played the WDADRA show with the band.  Second, even though I believe Portnoy was the driving force behind making the change (if I am not misremembering), he has played again with Portnoy in other projects.  And there may have been other interactions that I am not remembering as well. 

[mikeyd23]

I could see Derek coming back. I mean he was kicked out for Jordan Fuc#ing Rudess. I think he gets that. If there's one thing that has been clear since Derek left, it's that he has class and perspective.

Totally agree, Derek has shown absolutely nothing but class since he left DT and if JR were to leave, the remaining members of DT don't seem to feel anything negative toward Derek at all, so I totally think he'd be the conversation to replace JR. Whether he could handle the gig, I don't know, honestly Derek and the dudes in DT would be able to determine that pretty quickly so if it didn't seem like it would work out, I'm sure no one on either side would be offended by DT looking for a different keys player altogether.

[TheGreatPretender]

I know I was a part of it, but honestly, I don't even see why it became such a massive discussion, lol. I really don't think Jordan is going anywhere.

[Dreamer]

I haven't read all this thread but my controversial opinion is that ADTOE and DT12 are their best albums! 

[TheGreatPretender]

I haven't read all this thread but my controversial opinion is that ADTOE and DT12 are their best albums! 

Not gonna argue with you, I think the vast majority of their albums have enough merit to be anyone's favorite. But just curious, how long have you been a fan?

[Zook]

Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.

Ditto. I find some of the stuff he does in Lie obnoxious, and a lot of the heavy sections are the same synth strings. I think Awake has the least diverse keys of DT's albums.

Well he did stop caring halfway through the recording sessions. I like the keys on Awake though. The whole album sounds great.