Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[RodrigoAltaf]

I think SFAM is one of the DT albums with least obvious references to other bands and in my view Octavarium is the album on which DT wore their influences on their sleeves most blatantly.

 Agreed.

[sneakyblueberry]

Let's just all agree that Tool is a group of talented players who can't write a melody to save their lives and move on. 

Stinkfist has a melody that pretty much defines the post-grunge, alt scene of the 90's for me.  You should listen to it, its quite a beautiful melody in that chorus there. 

[BlobVanDam]

Rage Against the Machine, Tool and the obligatory Zappa rips in there. Hard.  I must apologise for the Spirit Carries On claim; I was getting at the John & Theresa Solo spot thing in Live Scenes; Great Gig in the Sky much.

Most DT albums are chock full of references, obvious inspirations. With that mentality you could call their entire library of music a giant ripoff. They always had their own sound, but they never shied away from showing their influences and talking about them. I don't think that lessens their music, on the contrary, it gives it even more depth.

Cool.  I agree with you, its just something that bothers me about music, especially what I find in prog bands.  I remember seeing a chart during the making of some Between the Buried and Me album, and one of the songs was like:

Meshuggah riff x4
Megadeth Chorus
Dream Theater Instrumental section
etc.

That shit just irks me, it seems so counter-progressive, if that makes sense.  I saw a similar thing in Liquid Drum Theater where MP broke down, I think it was Home, in a similar way.  I guess thats where my disdain for SFAM came from.  I get that its 'references' and 'nods' or whatever, but it just seems cheap to me.  Opinions, assholes, etc. 

That's not exclusive to SFAM, it's something they've done for all DT albums (at least the recent ones that we've seen in studio footage for to see charts). And the influences on many other albums are no more/less obvious.
It doesn't mean they're actively copying or imitating other bands, it's just naming a section for charting purposes based on a vibe. With certain bands being so influential to DT's sound, there are always going to be sections that end up being reminiscent of their influences. Often it's just like a fan saying "this section reminds me of Tool/Floyd/Rush" etc. And I'm sure DT12 had a lot of sections named after Rush!
I can't remember what some of the sections on the DT12 charts were called, but I'm sure there were some named after bands.
There's a section in BAI that I recall was named the Journey section (I think the slow guitar lead near the start of the instrumental section before the mellow section). It doesn't really remind me of Journey, but it reminded them of Journey, so that's what they called it. No big deal. It doesn't have any bearing on the final album. It's highly likely that any musical section is going to be vaguely reminiscent of something.

[sneakyblueberry]

Yeah, good call.  I think my musical taste has strayed quite a bit since I was last here I should probably stop posting in this thread.  Too easy to be controversial about a band when you're in a place dedicated to their existence

[Ruba]

Home sounds at times like Forty-Six & Two, but most of it doesn't sound like Tool.

I know this is the controversial opinions thread, but honestly, some of these Tool opinions are making my brain hurt.

Yeah. Maybe they don't have that many melodies, but their focus is more on the rhythms, which is one reason I love them.

[rumborak]

My controversial opinion of the day: I'm listening to the ToT demos right now, and you can soooo tell how their writing process goes. Those songs are often standalone instrumentals where then they took out some stuff JR played, and then plugged JLB in instead. Same thing happened to me with the BCSL stems, where several songs are actually stronger (IMHO) as instrumentals than with vocals.

[Lucien]

I want them to write an album where every member writes lyrics for 2 songs each (totaling 10), BEFORE the songs are written.

I want to hear what happens when they try to write a song around lyrics, instead of writing lyrics for a song. Rush does this, and I could easily say that Rush has a lot of stuff in their discography that equals or betters stuff within Dream Theater's discography.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

You know, I like Rush, but generally I'd be hard pressed to rank any of their songs over any DT songs. (this is in general, obviously there are exceptions)

[XB0BX]

Dream Theater might be my 2nd or 3rd favorite band, and I can't think of a single DT song I like better than (just to save time, I'll only list a few songs I consider "epics"):

-By-tor and the Snowdog
-Fountain of Lamneth
-The Necromancer
-Cygnus X-1
-Hemispheres
-Jacob's Ladder
-La Villa Strangiato
-2112
-Natural Science
-Clockwork Angels

[TheGreatPretender]

You know, I like Rush, but generally I'd be hard pressed to rank any of their songs over any DT songs.

This, and I would say without exceptions. But writing an album around lyrics does sound like a cool idea and something for them to consider and play with, maybe.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

No exceptions? You must really dislike Rush.

[TheGreatPretender]

No exceptions? You must really dislike Rush.

No, I like Rush. But I LOVE Dream Theater.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Huh. It's just hard for me to imagine that there's not even one great Rush song you'd like over a less-than-stellar DT song.

[TheGreatPretender]

Huh. It's just hard for me to imagine that there's not even one great Rush song you'd like over a less-than-stellar DT song.

Well, okay, there are some exceptions. But I'd say 90 - 95% of DT's catalogue I'd take over any Rush song.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.

[MonagFam]

I feel like JP lays down/mixes in (not sure the appropriate terminology) too many guitar tracks for specific songs.  There are probably some exceptions, but there is one JP and I'm fine with one guitar track (plus any effects he'd like to bring in).  I feel it takes away particularly from Myung as his bass, to my ears, gets lost under the guitar and drum tracks (this has gotten better with ADToE and DT12). 

This isn't just a DT thing.  In "Suspended Animation" he does a lot of that as well.  What's interesting is Dave LaRue is the bass player but is mostly lost (again to my ears..and this is JPs solo album)...but with Steve Morse, LaRue really shines and has a lot of moments to shine.  I don't need the bass to shine, and JP writes some of the best riffs/solos I've ever heard, I guess I just like one primary guitar track.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.

Same here. I still enjoy Rush more than most bands of their era. Definitely more than Led Zeppelin. (Controversial opinion on Rush #1)
The funny thing is that one of my absolute favorite Rush songs is Roll The Bones. The rap in it is one of the best Rush moments, ever. (Controversial opinion on Rush #2)

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Ha, my favorite Rush album is actually Roll The Bones.

[Aythesryche]

I find it interesting how a lot people are so caught up in their own personal taste in things, it blinds them to the fact that not everyone will like them exactly the way you do. What one "less-than-stellar" DT song to you might be a great one to another. Some people just like DT that much.

It's one of the most common self inflicted ignorances of those who like any kind of music. Fortunately on this forum, people's disagreements and distaste for others opinions are most of the time conveyed with more civility and respect than other places.

What's also interesting to me is if you would read a post on a Justin Beiber forum about how much DT sucks and how Beiber rules, you might find you have more in common with the Beiber fan than you realize. Those peoples opinions stem from the same place that we conjure up our opinions; what moves us, what we appreciate through acquired taste and incorporated into our individuality. 

Pretty much any statement that you could make about anything that's subjective is controversial in nature. Personally, I enjoy when people fight over it all and argue about who's right, who's wrong, who agrees and who suggests they don't care. It's all entertaining.

[bl5150]

Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.

I thought I was the only DT nut who doesn't love Rush with a passion- cue Mindcrime voice..................I feel better now .

[TheGreatPretender]

I find it interesting how a lot people are so caught up in their own personal taste in things, it blinds them to the fact that not everyone will like them exactly the way you do. What one "less-than-stellar" DT song to you might be a great one to another. Some people just like DT that much.

Yeah, but when he said "less than stellar" and I thought about the songs I consider "less than stellar" I pretty much assumed that the songs I was thinking of were not the same songs he was thinking of.

Except Raw Dog.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.

I thought I was the only DT nut who doesn't love Rush - cue Mindcrime voice..................I feel better now .

Until this page, I thought I was the only one!

I'm still pretty sure I'm the only DT fan on this forum who doesn't like ANY other prog at all though.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I find it interesting how a lot people are so caught up in their own personal taste in things, it blinds them to the fact that not everyone will like them exactly the way you do. What one "less-than-stellar" DT song to you might be a great one to another. Some people just like DT that much.

It's one of the most common self inflicted ignorances of those who like any kind of music. Fortunately on this forum, people's disagreements and distaste for others opinions are most of the time conveyed with more civility and respect than other places.

What's also interesting to me is if you would read a post on a Justin Beiber forum about how much DT sucks and how Beiber rules, you might find you have more in common with the Beiber fan than you realize. Those peoples opinions stem from the same place that we conjure up our opinions; what moves us, what we appreciate through acquired taste and incorporated into our individuality. 

Pretty much any statement that you could make about anything that's subjective is controversial in nature. Personally, I enjoy when people fight over it all and argue about who's right, who's wrong, who agrees and who suggests they don't care. It's all entertaining.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[TheGreatPretender]

Until this page, I thought I was the only one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiQnwiATK0E#t=18

[rumborak]

I feel like JP lays down/mixes in (not sure the appropriate terminology) too many guitar tracks for specific songs.  There are probably some exceptions, but there is one JP and I'm fine with one guitar track (plus any effects he'd like to bring in).  I feel it takes away particularly from Myung as his bass, to my ears, gets lost under the guitar and drum tracks (this has gotten better with ADToE and DT12). 

That plays into my comment about DT earlier on this page, where I think DT writes their songs as instrumentals, and then James comes in and sings over them. When something is an instrumental, having a doubled guitar is a very natural thing to do because it fills out the sonic space more. But when you then put the vocals over it, it becomes too cluttered, and that's a criticism I've had with DT for a long time.

[Perpetual Change]

Prompted by the FII demo thread:

DT need to get back to the mentality that not everything they record deserves to be on an album, and should start trying to do more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

"Not everything we record should make the album" - almost every other band / artist on the planet recognizes and is comfortable with admitting that.

Apparently not DT.

[The Stray Seed]

more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

Yes, and to me that's exactly what they did with DT12. =]

[Prog Snob]

DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?

I think JLB said that in an interview.

[Perpetual Change]

more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

Yes, and to me that's exactly what they did with DT12. =]

It was definitely a step in the right direction, but I still think there's a bit they could have done without. The songs are good, but for me the instrumental are really well-planned, and  "The Illumination Theory" is easily the most incohesive epic they've done.

[The Stray Seed]

more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

Yes, and to me that's exactly what they did with DT12. =]

It was definitely a step in the right direction, but I still think there's a bit they could have done without. The songs are good, but for me the instrumental are really well-planned, and  "The Illumination Theory" is easily the most incohesive epic they've done.

TIT. That acronym would win anything anyday.

[TheGreatPretender]

Prompted by the FII demo thread:

DT need to get back to the mentality that not everything they record deserves to be on an album, and should start trying to do more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

"Not everything we record should make the album" - almost every other band / artist on the planet recognizes and is comfortable with admitting that.

Apparently not DT.

Yeah, but most other bands write a surplus of songs anyway. Most other bands just write and write and write, and after they end up with more material than they need, they pick what's best and what's suited for the album. DT obviously doesn't work like that. Heck, I'm not sure how many of these other bands write their songs in studio. Since DT does their writing in studio, they obviously can't just sit there writing excess material for the fun of it.

But because of these circumstances, I think DT's albums have always been very cohesive. In fact, I&W and FII are the only albums (well, and WDADU) they wrote where they had excess material. And when they were writing FII, they specifically wanted a double album, so they needed the extra material to fill out the 2nd CD. And I mean, who knows? Maybe if they were given a green light on their creative freedom, and they decided to complete the 20 minute Metropolis Pt. 2, they would've put it on the album and got rid of a couple of the other songs.

But as it stands, aside from the "Intended FII" which never even came to fruition, all of DT's albums have been extremely cohesive and frankly, DT IS the one band where everything they record SHOULD make the album, even most of the stuff that didn't. Look at their B-Sides. Between To Live Forever, Raise The Knife and Speak To Me, the only songs that I'd say aren't album-worthy are Cover My Eyes and Raw Dog. That's 2 out of their 100+ song catalogue.

But you know, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I would be happy if they ended up writing excess of material, then picked and chose which songs they think should be on the album. It's just that the songs that would end up getting left out would probably be awesome regardless, and I'm sure they'd end up seeing the light of day in one way or another.

[gmillerdrake]

In the video fan Q & A Petrucci stated they had many different riffs and melodies they didn't use, maybe not entire songs per say but they still have a collection of ideas and music that they chose not to put on DT12 and save for a later date or never use.

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, but most other bands write a surplus of songs anyway. Most other bands just write and write and write, and after they end up with more material than they need...

I find this kinda strange. Excluding the last album, do you think DT just wrote naturally always wound up writing just under 80 minutes of music?

I find it very hard to believe they ever trim anything down.

[TheGreatPretender]

I find this kinda strange. Excluding the last album, do you think DT just wrote naturally always wound up writing just under 80 minutes of music?

I find it very hard to believe they ever trim anything down.

I do wonder just how meticulously they plan out their songs. I mean, to they actually go, "Well, what we have now ends up to 72 minutes, our final song should be one of our simple 6 - 7 minute songs."

[Perpetual Change]

I wouldn't be surprised. John's writing is increasingly formuliac.