Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Welcome to the forum.

SDOIT - In-cohesive, should have been four great 10 minute songs. Solitary Shell best song on album but gets to second chorus then dead. had potential to be so much more.

Prepare to die.

[jsem]

I'm inclined to agree. SDOIT the song is way too bloated. Also, Solitary Shell is my #5 DT song if SDOIT is split up.

[King Postwhore]

I'm inclined to agree. SDOIT the song is way too bloated. Also, Solitary Shell is my #5 DT song if SDOIT is split up.

I'm the opposite.  i think of the song as a book with chapters.  Sometimes you can't put the book down and sometimes I read a few chapters.

[Sycsa]

Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.

Which song is that, TEI or EM? Anyway, I'd disagree on both counts. Jordan's solo in TEI with JP's wah-wah underneath it sounds great. Although it's rather over it than underneath it, which lessens the experience a bit. I could see why some people wouldn't like this part though, just like the oddly similar part of LNF. EM on the other hand is probably the most by-the-book, typical Jordan sound and solo, I can't hear anything there that would break the flow and pull one out. The whole song is a big highlight of DT12 for me.

[xfirehurricane]

Welcome to the forum.

Prepare to die.

Preparing to be slaughtered mercilessly. To expand on the SDOIT comment; I just think it loses focus as a whole piece. Overture doesn't encompass everything succinctly like Overture 1928 does on SFAM. I still love it and listen to it, but could have just been a great set of songs with cool segues and occasionally recurring themes such as Home does to Metropolis ptI etc.

Thanks for the welcome!

[1neeto]

Hey, new here, but 20+ year fan.

SDOIT - In-cohesive, should have been four great 10 minute songs. Solitary Shell best song on album but gets to second chorus then dead. had potential to be so much more.

Derek's keyboard style was great.

Stopped listening to DT after SC. Everything was cringe worthy except Forsaken. ADTOE brought me back from the edge and got me excited about the band again. Top 4 album for me.

I like Space Dye Vest and the Mind Beside Itself Trilogy; the rest of Awake I can skip. Hate the cold reverb permeating the keys and vox throughout.

Although the snare needs more snap, I actually like the drums sounds and panning on DT12.

What is this... I'm not even. 

[adastra]

Couple of controversial opinions about DT12;

1. False Awakening Suite and The Enigma Machine  are DT's worst instrumentals. They go all over the place and are kinda boring.
2. TEI isn't very good :<
3. The drumming on DT12 sounds like it doesn't have any feeling and sounds like a drum machine ._.
 Maybe they were thinking something like this;
"Hey, lets make the drumming on DT12 sound same as Petrucci's soloing in TOT.......... SOULLESS!!!"

But yeah, not completely bashing the album.  The Looking Glass is amazing!

[aprilethereal]

My initial impression of DT12 was that it'd be my #6. Now it has surpassed both ADTOE (previously #5) and Awake (previously #4), and it's so close to TOT (#3), it might even surpass that one eventually. I can't even express how much respect I have for DT for releasing an album as fantastic as DT12 this far into their career

[orcus116]

Maybe because I'm not a drummer and can't pick up on drummer styles but if I was oblivious to the whole Portnoy thing and you told me he was drumming for the last two albums I would believe you. I'm sure Mangini is a great talent but I can't detect any difference in the drumming or the ways the drums are handled within the songs.

[Viking of the Sagas]

The only things I can point our are his crisp drum sounds(he always wanted those!) and his addictive use of double bass. That's what I felt was missing from the DT sound.

[Ruba]

The drumming on DT12 is better than on ADTOE, but I still prefer Portnoy. But that doesn't mean I'm not content with Mangini.

[Polarbear]

The drumming on DT12 is better than on ADTOE, but I still prefer Portnoy. But that doesn't mean I'm not content with Mangini.

I agree 100%.

Mangini did a fine job behind the kit in DT12. I think he's drumming is the highlight of the album, BUT he is still not Portnoy.

[gmillerdrake]

I listened to SC and BC&SL'S then ADTOE & DT 12 with the specific intent to 'compare' MP and MM. There is no comparison. MP's last two efforts are bland, recycled parts and fills with very little creativity to me. Sure it 'sounds' ok and fits the songs but to then listen to what MM has done the last two albums it makes you realize what a drummer can do when he keeps practicing, keeps trying to improve rather than rest on your laurels and just count on people buying your music because of 'who you are'

There's no denying MP's status as an elite drummer. He's remarkable....really. But his laziness and disinterest with DT is very apparent on his last two efforts with him whereas MM's excitement,  skill and dedication to his craft is just as apparent with his first two efforts with them.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Huh. I always enjoy MP's playing more, even on the two albums you mentioned. Mangini is certainly amazing, but I just prefer MP's playing style.

[425]

I agree with those who say they prefer Portnoy's playing style. I am not at all knowledgeable about the drums so I could not tell you what it is that makes me prefer it, but for some reason, I like the vibe of his playing better.

I also miss MP's vocals and his (presumably) perspective on vocal melodies on ADTOE and DT12. I love it when a band has a rich vocal soundscape with more than just one voice in the mix. Mike has a really nice and really diverse singing voice and added texture to a lot of DT songs, whether he was doing a lead part or just backing James. I also miss hearing John's voice. I'm not sure if he's on the album versions of DT12 or ADTOE, but if he is, I can't hear him. Based on this, I would hazard the guess that Mike was the one who thought it would be a good idea to do all those multi-parted vocal melodies. I don't love James' melodies on BCSL, but the vocal melodies on that album were still better (IMO) than on the last two because of the significant presence of multiple parts including MP and JP (particularly in a song like AROP). In terms of vocal melodies, DT12 isn't a whole lot better than BCSL for James and really falls below it for me because there's no one else, it's just him.

I also miss certain elements of DT's songwriting that have not been present on the last two albums. I love ADTOE and DT12 to death, but I miss the little musical adventures and some of the less serious songs from the late MP era (examples of the latter: TCOT, Forsaken).

I wonder how hard this will get me slammed. It seems to me that there's a bit more of a taboo around here for preferring MP to MM than there is for preferring KM to JR, which is interesting given the parallels between those two replacements ("soul of the band" replaced by a far more technical player). I suppose it makes sense in that there are more people in other parts of the internet who are ignorant to the reasons for MP's departure and demand his return while trashing the new stuff, but not everyone who prefers MP is like that. I love Mike Mangini and I love a lot of things about the new album and a lot of things about Dramatic Turn, and there are ways in which these are the strongest albums we've seen in a while, but I do miss MP and I do prefer DT's style from when he was in the band. And I wish he had gotten his act together in 2010 and reconciled his problems with letting JMX and JLB having more of a voice in the band, and that they had continued with him. But, since that obviously didn't happen (and the fault for that falls on MP), I'm still quite happy that they found a musical and personal match in Mangini and that they continue to produce great music.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I agree with most of that. I mean, I'm definitely glad Mangini is in the band. He's a fantastic musician, and just an all around great guy, plus the band seems to be more energized with him. I wouldn't want Portnoy to return, that era is definitely over. I just prefer the music they made with MP.

Although I will say the circumstances between KevMo leaving and MP leaving are totally different.

[Viking of the Sagas]

Sums up my thoughts.

[Polarbear]

Very well said 425!.
I agree with most of that

[LTE3]

I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.

Solitary Shell is really, really great.

But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say 'the best'. So definitely controversial.

Well, I consider 6DOIT as being one song, and Solitary Shell is definitely one of the best parts of the song.

If I could only listen to 1 DT cd for the rest of my life it would be Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

[GasparXR]

But that's two DT CDs

[adamack]

I agree with those who say they prefer Portnoy's playing style. I am not at all knowledgeable about the drums so I could not tell you what it is that makes me prefer it, but for some reason, I like the vibe of his playing better.

I also miss MP's vocals and his (presumably) perspective on vocal melodies on ADTOE and DT12. I love it when a band has a rich vocal soundscape with more than just one voice in the mix. Mike has a really nice and really diverse singing voice and added texture to a lot of DT songs, whether he was doing a lead part or just backing James. I also miss hearing John's voice. I'm not sure if he's on the album versions of DT12 or ADTOE, but if he is, I can't hear him. Based on this, I would hazard the guess that Mike was the one who thought it would be a good idea to do all those multi-parted vocal melodies. I don't love James' melodies on BCSL, but the vocal melodies on that album were still better (IMO) than on the last two because of the significant presence of multiple parts including MP and JP (particularly in a song like AROP). In terms of vocal melodies, DT12 isn't a whole lot better than BCSL for James and really falls below it for me because there's no one else, it's just him.

I also miss certain elements of DT's songwriting that have not been present on the last two albums. I love ADTOE and DT12 to death, but I miss the little musical adventures and some of the less serious songs from the late MP era (examples of the latter: TCOT, Forsaken).

I wonder how hard this will get me slammed. It seems to me that there's a bit more of a taboo around here for preferring MP to MM than there is for preferring KM to JR, which is interesting given the parallels between those two replacements ("soul of the band" replaced by a far more technical player). I suppose it makes sense in that there are more people in other parts of the internet who are ignorant to the reasons for MP's departure and demand his return while trashing the new stuff, but not everyone who prefers MP is like that. I love Mike Mangini and I love a lot of things about the new album and a lot of things about Dramatic Turn, and there are ways in which these are the strongest albums we've seen in a while, but I do miss MP and I do prefer DT's style from when he was in the band. And I wish he had gotten his act together in 2010 and reconciled his problems with letting JMX and JLB having more of a voice in the band, and that they had continued with him. But, since that obviously didn't happen (and the fault for that falls on MP), I'm still quite happy that they found a musical and personal match in Mangini and that they continue to produce great music.

Great points of view, man.

I can definitely share a good bit of your sentiment.

To reiterate what you said, I miss MP's backing vocals so much too. It added another sonic element in the vocal harmony. He wasn't the greatest singer in the world of course, but on the albums he always sounded great...a perfect Yang to JLB's Yin.

And I agree that the background vocals of not only MP, but JP as well were MP's doing.

A perfect example is  "Home". The background harmonies from the guys (is it JP, MP, or both?) are just amazing. They are crucial to how amazing that song is.

As for drumming, I miss those dynamic mixes too. The small toms panning wide left and right. The splash cymbal off at the 3 o clock position in the panning spectrum. May have been a mixing thing, but I think it was also in his own mic placement preferences.

The thing that brings me peace with the whole issue is this: When MP left, I was crushed. I honestly thought that the band was going to go downhill, and not be able to find someone else to compare.

But when MM came in, and (as you mentioned) they released ADToE and now DT12, I learned to become so satisfied with how things are going.

To me, it's now about not replacing MP, but being someone who fits, is skilled as hell, and makes great music with the band.

I will always miss MP though. I don't care if he was a diva, to me he was great.

[BlobVanDam]

After recently re-listening to a lot of DT albums, the only DT album I can consider MP's drumming performance less than excellent is BCASL, and even then it's not bad at all, just more basic than his usual standard. But he has a lot of cool stuff on SC. The breakdown of CM alone is great for cymbal and tom work.

Out of the MM albums, ADTOE didn't impress me much, probably because he didn't write the parts entirely from scratch. It was an improvement over BCASL's drumming, but I didn't enjoy it as much as SC's drumming. DT12's drumming is a lot better, although I hear a lot of straight up MP beats and fills in there. There's also a lot of cool stuff he didn't get to do on ADTOE too though.

I don't have a problem with either drummer's work at all, so I'm not siding with one over the other here, I'm just saying I think that MP's drumming is better than people give him credit for here.

[gmillerdrake]

After recently re-listening to a lot of DT albums, the only DT album I can consider MP's drumming performance less than excellent is BCASL, and even then it's not bad at all, just more basic than his usual standard. But he has a lot of cool stuff on SC. The breakdown of CM alone is great for cymbal and tom work.

Out of the MM albums, ADTOE didn't impress me much, probably because he didn't write the parts entirely from scratch. It was an improvement over BCASL's drumming, but I didn't enjoy it as much as SC's drumming. DT12's drumming is a lot better, although I hear a lot of straight up MP beats and fills in there. There's also a lot of cool stuff he didn't get to do on ADTOE too though.

I don't have a problem with either drummer's work at all, so I'm not siding with one over the other here, I'm just saying I think that MP's drumming is better than people give him credit for here.

For the record....I love MP's drumming. I think everything pre- Systematic Chaos is fantastic. To me his last two albums were 'mailed in'

I just appreciate the fresh energy MM has brought along with him....along with his prowess. I will always miss that MP era of DT....that was awesome music. I just feel like MP "left" the band a lot longer before his official announcement when it came to making music.

[BlobVanDam]

After recently re-listening to a lot of DT albums, the only DT album I can consider MP's drumming performance less than excellent is BCASL, and even then it's not bad at all, just more basic than his usual standard. But he has a lot of cool stuff on SC. The breakdown of CM alone is great for cymbal and tom work.

Out of the MM albums, ADTOE didn't impress me much, probably because he didn't write the parts entirely from scratch. It was an improvement over BCASL's drumming, but I didn't enjoy it as much as SC's drumming. DT12's drumming is a lot better, although I hear a lot of straight up MP beats and fills in there. There's also a lot of cool stuff he didn't get to do on ADTOE too though.

I don't have a problem with either drummer's work at all, so I'm not siding with one over the other here, I'm just saying I think that MP's drumming is better than people give him credit for here.

For the record....I love MP's drumming. I think everything pre- Systematic Chaos is fantastic. To me his last two albums were 'mailed in'

I just appreciate the fresh energy MM has brought along with him....along with his prowess. I will always miss that MP era of DT....that was awesome music. I just feel like MP "left" the band a lot longer before his official announcement when it came to making music.

I disagree. As I said, at the least, I don't agree that SC should be included there at all, as there's a lot of great drumming on that, and the whole album feels fun and lively, and I also don't feel like ADTOE was a particularly inspired drumming performance either. That whole album feels kind of like the band going through the motions to me, unlike DT12, which even though I'm also not a *huge* fan of, sounds a lot more energetic, and fresh to me, and a lot of what I felt was missing from ADTOE.

Just imo of course. I can understand the criticism of BCASL, but I just don't agree that SC should be lumped in with it, or that ADTOE was a huge improvement. For me DT12 was when MM was really able to pick up and utilize his potential, and the first time I felt the energy that he brought to the band.

[Polarbear]

I have to agree with Mr. VanDam here.

Although DT12 wasn't very good imo, we finally hear a small taste of what MM can potentially bring into the sound of DT. He feels a lot more confident on this album than ADTOE, although overall imo ADTOE is miles better. But i think we have to wait for DT13 to hear MM truly unleashed, or maybe even DT14.

About Portnoy. I think i am one of the few people here, who loves every aspect of SC. MP's drumming on that album is really good. On BCSL however you can hear that he was getting tired, and needed a way out. But despite everything that the band has released with MM thus far, i still prefer DT with MP infinitely more.

And the bottom line FOR ME PERSONALLY is, MP will always be THE drummer of DT and MM will always be the replacement.

[Lucidity]

I think the Enemy Inside is one of the worst songs DT have written.

[jakepriest]

Take The Time is the worst song on Images and Words and I skip it everytime.

The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the Twelve-step Suite.

I don't consider Illumination Theory an epic but an album closer in the vein of ITNOG. The ambient/orchestral section kills the song and doesn't go anywhere.

[Bolsters]

Take The Time is the worst song on Images and Words and I skip it everytime.

The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the Twelve-step Suite.

[Outcrier]

I don't consider Illumination Theory an epic.

Neither i, just because it's long don't make it epic.

[Crow]

Take The Time is the worst song on Images and Words and I skip it everytime.

The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the Twelve-step Suite.

Yeah, this is one of the worst opinions I've ever heard and you should be ashamed of yourself, Take the Time is amazing. I used to hate it too, though, so maybe it'll grow on you.

New opinion: Take Away My Pain is the worst song on FII by a good margin.

[425]

I don't disagree with that, but the demo version is beautiful. I believe MP said of the album arrangement that it took some of the most heartfelt lyrics and vocals ever and placed them in a ride at Disneyland (I don't have my FII Demos booklet with me so I don't have the exact quote).

[BlobVanDam]

The song itself isn't bad, but that album arrangement is horrid, and it's one of only two songs on FII I skip. It's a shame too, because that solo is absolutely killer.

[Crow]

TAMP isn't the worst musically on its own merits, but because we have the demo to compare it to. That's why it's so awful. I loooove the demo, is part of it. You Or Me ---> You Not Me isn't as bad a change because, honestly, You Or Me wasn't ever that good to begin with. TAMP was, and now it's not, and the version that sucks is the one more people are familiar with. I might even go as far as to call the album version the worst DT song merely for what it represents. Might. There'd be competition though.

[Scorpion]

I love both versions of TAMP, but gun to the head I'd probably go with the demo as well. The album version is great as well, though.

[aprilethereal]

I think the Enemy Inside is one of the worst songs DT have written.

What?

I love both versions of TAMP, but gun to the head I'd probably go with the demo as well. The album version is great as well, though.

All of this.