Mt. Rushmore of Hard Rock/Metal Guitarists

[WilliamMunny]

To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.

Well, rock/metal has been declining in the mainstream for decades now.  The biggest "new" player is probably someone like Tim Henson from Polyphia. 

I think if Cobain applies to Hard Rock/Metal, so does Elvis, and many others. If we're talking about Rock in the general sense, including alt rock, etc., then surely Cobain applies.

Well, he's way closer to it than Elvis.  That might his other main talent, he managed to bring in influences from hard rock, metal, and punk together in a way that built a fanbase out of sections of each of those styles. 

[Stadler]

To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.

Well, I think it takes time to get to Mt. Rushmore.  There are current guys I like - Dave Navarro is one (he's top five favorite player for me), Slash is another, Warren Haynes a third - but so many of them grew up on what we're talking about. I think even Slash would say Ed belongs there first.

I'm also not sure I've heard anything that has taken my breath away like that first Van Halen record. I don't think you can understate how much a game-changer that was when it first came out. I can only imagine that Hendrix was the same way (McCartney has said it was).  For the record, I only got into Hendrix in the last ten years or so, and I got his first three records in an eBay auction, and when I listened to the deeper tracks, every song was like "wow, that's Steve Vai!", "wow, that's Uli Roth!", "wow, that's SRV!", "wow, that's Judas Priest!"  I don't think I've ever heard so many blatant stylistic references off of such a finite group of songs. 

[LithoJazzoSphere]

To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.

Well, I think it takes time to get to Mt. Rushmore.  There are current guys I like - Dave Navarro is one (he's top five favorite player for me), Slash is another, Warren Haynes a third

"Current" guys, who are in their 50s and 60s and started releasing music in the 80s. 

[WilliamMunny]

To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.

Well, I think it takes time to get to Mt. Rushmore.  There are current guys I like - Dave Navarro is one (he's top five favorite player for me), Slash is another, Warren Haynes a third

"Current" guys, who are in their 50s and 60s and started releasing music in the 80s. 

My point exactly

I was more looking for that 22-year-old who, as Stadler said, makes you want to change your clothes when your playing cards with your sister (wait? What?) 

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Yeah, it's crazy, even the "new" wave of players I like such as Plini, Sithu Aye, David Maxim Micic, Jakub Zytecki, Nili Brosh and others are mostly in their 30s now.  The hottest ones are probably on Tik Tok, which I don't pay attention to. 

[Adami]

Yea, I think for very "new" players, the only name that pops up is Tim Henson.

Not a huge fan and I find his style extremely repetitive, but he is very innovative and his influence is just starting to spread considerably.

But it'll take a long time to break into mainstream and become a legend. It was easier in the 70's and 80's when record labels were gatekeepers, but now literally anyone with a camera can become an internet sensation. The crowd to rise above is HUGE compared to what it was back in the day. Who knows how many people would've challenged Eddie for his claim to fame if they had been as lucky in their break.

[Elite]

Interesting thread idea, and this could go multiple ways if the goal would be ‘influential’ or ‘successful’. If we had to name players who shaped guitar based music (I know that’s not necessarily hard rock / heavy metal), how about these four?

- Charlie Christian
- Les Paul
- Eddie van Halen
- Steve Vai

Going with a hard time rock / metal approach, swap out the first two with Hendrix and Clapton.

[EPICVIEW]

Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.

Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.

That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.

The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.

After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.

Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"

Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.

While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.

I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.

Huge Kurt fan here   Met him even   Kurt really  broke barriers and used the guitar like a weapon, not sure about him being on this list but he was just amazing in all ways

[Stadler]

Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.

Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.

That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.

The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.

After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.

Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"

Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.

While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.

I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.

Huge Kurt fan here   Met him even   Kurt really  broke barriers and used the guitar like a weapon, not sure about him being on this list but he was just amazing in all ways

You kind of look a little like him, as well. 

[pg1067]

Well...this has been a busy thread since yesterday afternoon.  I didn't read everything, but a couple thoughts.

The only time "metal" really became mainstream was roughly 1982-93 or so.  However, the bands that were the most mainstream featured guitarists who weren't terribly innovative - e.g., Motley Crue, Def Leppard, etc.

For me, personally, I'd say the list is Lifeson, Matheos, Petrucci and DeGarmo (if we went beyond hard rock/metal, I'd probably swap out DeGarmo for Howe).

[Samsara]

re: Cobain

Interesting thought. I did think of him. But I quickly went against that. For me, he wasn't really innovative. The "less is more" approach didn't start with Cobain, honestly. He was just the poster child for the era. I thought Cobain, particularly years after his passing, really was starting to get interesting with the song "You Know You're Right." I would have loved to have seen where he went after that. But strictly as a guitar player, I'm not sure he works for me.

Overall, I'm happy to see the consensus (more or less) on EVH and Hendrix. For me, Iommi has to be there. His sound and style approach to the guitar basically invented heavy metal as we know it. Still, that fourth alludes me. Really good suggestions by all. I just don't think any of them really work for me, personally.

Whoever said that rock/metal is in decline has a point too...it's harder to pinpoint when the style of music is not really going anywhere. The prog metal movement certainly blossomed. But those players are generally not ones that cross over into the mainstream. Take JP. Most prog people know who he is. Maybe metal. But if you ask a random 45 year old who John Petrucci is, or Dream Theater is, they won't know. So by default, at least with the criteria I established for my own list, he doesn't make it. Whereas, you mention Hendrix, EVH, or Black Sabbath, boom.

Maybe Jimmy Page is that guy. The more I think about it. The more I realize that he probably fits the bill.

Hendrix
Iommi
Page
EVH

[TAC]

I’d say the average 45 y/o on the street might have heard of Black Sabbath, but I think even that is debatable. There’s know way they’d have heard of Iommi.

[EPICVIEW]

Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.

Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.

That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.

The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.

After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.

Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"

Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.

While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.

I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.

Huge Kurt fan here   Met him even   Kurt really  broke barriers and used the guitar like a weapon, not sure about him being on this list but he was just amazing in all ways

You kind of look a little like him, as well. 

I hear that from time to time  : )

[Grappler]

If we're going only by the innovative idea:

Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello


Yngwie could probably be included too.  But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level. 

[lonestar]

If we're going only by the innovative idea:

Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello


Yngwie could probably be included too.  But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.

How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.

[Grappler]

If we're going only by the innovative idea:

Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello


Yngwie could probably be included too.  But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.

How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.

I consider him to be the EVH of the 90's.  He put a ton of groove into his rhythm playing, he could shred like crazy when it came to leads (or play with a lot of feel, like his leads in Floods or Walk), and he was rather prolific with harmonics and squeals.  He could just get unique sounds to come out of the instrument and inspired kids in the 90's to want to play like him. 

I'm not a musician, so I can't explain it further than that.  Just a hell of a player and a guy that flew a flag for this type of playing in the 90's, when it wasn't always cool to be a traditional metal guitarist.

[Stadler]

If we're going only by the innovative idea:

Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello


Yngwie could probably be included too.  But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.

How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.

I consider him to be the EVH of the 90's.  He put a ton of groove into his rhythm playing, he could shred like crazy when it came to leads (or play with a lot of feel, like his leads in Floods or Walk), and he was rather prolific with harmonics and squeals.  He could just get unique sounds to come out of the instrument and inspired kids in the 90's to want to play like him. 

I'm not a musician, so I can't explain it further than that.  Just a hell of a player and a guy that flew a flag for this type of playing in the 90's, when it wasn't always cool to be a traditional metal guitarist.

Hmmm.   Not a Pantera fan, but aware of them for various reasons.  I don't have to like a player to hear them and say "wow, I've never heard that before".  I've never listened to a Pantera song and said "wow, I've never heard that before".

I hear a lot of Zakk Wylde in Darrell's playing.  know Dime was recording before Zakk Wylde (1984-ish to Zakk's 1988) but Pantera did their big stylistic swicheroo in the 1990 timeframe, so I don't know what to make of that. 

[LithoJazzoSphere]

The big thing with Dimebag was the rhythmic swagger.  He took thrash riffs and gave them more groove, more swing, more syncopation (foreshadowing Meshuggah and others later), and started making significant downtuning much more widespread.  The whole sound of metal rhythm guitar shifted again, probably the second biggest since Hetfield.  I don't like his tone at all, but it was really different from everyone else, using solid state amps, it was very jagged and sledgehammer-like, a massive influence on countless players.  And he did that while also being a superb lead player, with most of the tricks EVH could do, but in a far more aggressive context.  Heck, our own JP cites him as a major influence. 

[HOF]

He doesn’t fit the mainstream category, but Ty Tabor was also pretty influential on the 90s hard rock/metal/grunge scene.

[Samsara]

He doesn’t fit the mainstream category, but Ty Tabor was also pretty influential on the 90s hard rock/metal/grunge scene.

Yes he was. Love Ty. One of my favorites. Such great tone and feel.

I'm glad this topic took off.

I think folks who are making the case for Dime and Hetfield are doing a good job. I think both changed the game for sure. If there was a "metal only" Mt. Rushmore foursome, I'm sure they'd be there. But that's why I made it hard rock/metal. Those genres are so entwined, I'm not a fan of how things are now defined and separated out, subgenre-wise. But most importantly, merging them really makes you think hard.

The only two, as I said earlier, most of us agree on is Hendrix and EVH. Which is absolutely okay.

I think if we expanded Mt. Rushmore to say six players, we're probably going to be a lot more aligned on these guys:

Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page
Hetfield
Dime

But narrowing it to four is hard. Really hard.

And major shout again to HOF - Ty Tabor. Man, I could listen to that guy just noodle on his guitar all day long. Fun fact, he was asked to join Queensryche years ago. Through Jason Slater. Ty declined (this was in 2008) because they were putting the final touches on King's X's XV album and he didn't want to bail on that. He said he was honored to be asked. Just such a great dude.

[HOF]

Didn’t Ty play in some version of Geoff Tate’s QR?

[Stadler]

He doesn’t fit the mainstream category, but Ty Tabor was also pretty influential on the 90s hard rock/metal/grunge scene.

Yes he was. Love Ty. One of my favorites. Such great tone and feel.

I'm glad this topic took off.

I think folks who are making the case for Dime and Hetfield are doing a good job. I think both changed the game for sure. If there was a "metal only" Mt. Rushmore foursome, I'm sure they'd be there. But that's why I made it hard rock/metal. Those genres are so entwined, I'm not a fan of how things are now defined and separated out, subgenre-wise. But most importantly, merging them really makes you think hard.

The only two, as I said earlier, most of us agree on is Hendrix and EVH. Which is absolutely okay.

I think if we expanded Mt. Rushmore to say six players, we're probably going to be a lot more aligned on these guys:

Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page
Hetfield
Dime

But narrowing it to four is hard. Really hard.

And major shout again to HOF - Ty Tabor. Man, I could listen to that guy just noodle on his guitar all day long. Fun fact, he was asked to join Queensryche years ago. Through Jason Slater. Ty declined (this was in 2008) because they were putting the final touches on King's X's XV album and he didn't want to bail on that. He said he was honored to be asked. Just such a great dude.

No, you had it right the first time.  I love me some Hetfield, and have respect for Dime, but they don't belong here, IMO.   not if we're leaving the Jeff Beck's of the world off.  Or Jerry Garcia, for that matter.

[TAC]

If we're going only by the innovative idea:

Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello


Yngwie could probably be included too.  But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.

How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.

Or Tom Morello for that matter.

[Samsara]

Didn’t Ty play in some version of Geoff Tate’s QR?

He recorded solos for GT's QR, under the promise they were for a GT solo album and not a QR album. It was very underhanded of the Tates to do that. Slater called Tabor afterward and explained and apologized, and Tabor was gracious enough to waive any guilt off from Slater's part in that.

No, you had it right the first time.  I love me some Hetfield, and have respect for Dime, but they don't belong here, IMO.   not if we're leaving the Jeff Beck's of the world off.  Or Jerry Garcia, for that matter.

Of course I had it right the first time. LOL. C'mon Stads, I'm never wrong.

[HOF]

I don’t even like Metallica, but it does feel like someone from the band should be on a Mt. Rushmore of hard rock/metal. Maybe Dave Mustaine, LOL.

[Stadler]

If we're going only by the innovative idea:

Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello


Yngwie could probably be included too.  But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.

How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.

Or Tom Morello for that matter.

I say this just as my own opinion, but I consider Tom Morello one of the more over-hyped, over-rated guitar players around.  He's had some cool riffs for sure, but the "sound collage" as "guitar solo" thing wore off for me really quickly.  I dig his enthusiasm for the genre (not so much his social positions) but that's not reflective of how "innovative" he might be.

[bosk1]

I think it has to be Samsara's list, with maybe a bit of Stadler in there.   I wish I could add to it, but--and I'm not criticizing the OP at all--the criteria are so narrow that they necessarily restrict discussion to only a small number of players.  In light of that, not really sure what can be added, both in terms of names and discussion.

But to add to the case for Hetfield:  There isn't a single thing he was doing that might be described as "innovative."  But what he did in totality still fits the description of "innovative" in my mind.  He played heavy, he played fast, he used a lot of muting and percussive playing, he incorporated a lot of classical influenced and combined them with punk influences, and he played with very clean, precise technique.  In combining those elements, he was doing something innovative, in my mind, especially as it developed into a signature style that helped launch an entire new subgenre of metal (and, yes, I know Metallica didn't "invent" thrash by any stretch--but they brought it to popularity and created a recognizable brand).  That, to me, qualifies him, or at least puts him in the discussion.  He wouldn't be on my personal Mt. Rushmore, mind you.  But I think he arguably fits the criteria laid out in this thread.

[HOF]

Maybe we need to use the criteria that Gutzon Borglum used to select the four presidents to be carved into Mount Rusmoore.

https://www.nps.gov/moru/learn/historyculture/why-these-four-presidents.htm

1. Washington - represented the birth of the United States
2. Jefferson - represented the growth of the United States
3. Roosevelt - represented the development of the United States
4. Lincoln - represented the preservation of the United States

Maybe we need one guy who was an originator of hard rock/metal (Hendrix, Page, or Iommi?), one who grew the popularity of hard/rock metal (EVH?), one who developed the genres further (Hetfield?), and one who has carried on or preserved the genres (thinking someone more modern but not sure who - maybe an Adam Jones or Mark Tremonti type).

[Samsara]

bosk:

The criteria are strict on purpose - Mt. Rushmore is supposed to be the absolute pinnacle, right? Immortalized for their importance. The criteria are absolutely necessary in order to make sure the "right" people are on it, ya know?

I love the case for Hetfield. I really, really do. But what he was doing was being done by others at the time. Venom, Angel Witch, etc. Yes, Hetfield did it faster. No denying that. But the essence of what he did was already there. And then there's...there's the fact he's not a complete player. He isn't a soloist. I think someone put on a "Mt. Rushmore" of guitarists has to have the recorded history of not just playing rhythm, but also expanded leads. Hendrix, EVH, Iommi, Page (if you think he should be on there), all fit that bill.

"Completeness" is probably another criteria that should be added. If you just play leads, or you just play rhythm, it's probably a strong strike against a person being on that mountain. Just some food for thought.

[bosk1]

bosk:

The criteria are strict on purpose - Mt. Rushmore is supposed to be the absolute pinnacle, right? Immortalized for their importance. The criteria are absolutely necessary in order to make sure the "right" people are on it, ya know?

Oh, I get it.  Like I said, I'm not criticizing.  I'm just stating why it is so difficult to come up with more names.  And other people might feel you can get the "pinnacle" with slightly different criteria.  But, yeah, I still get what you are saying.  No major disagreement from me.

Regarding Hetfield:

And then there's...there's the fact he's not a complete player. He isn't a soloist. I think someone put on a "Mt. Rushmore" of guitarists has to have the recorded history of not just playing rhythm, but also expanded leads. Hendrix, EVH, Iommi, Page (if you think he should be on there), all fit that bill.

"Completeness" is probably another criteria that should be added. If you just play leads, or you just play rhythm, it's probably a strong strike against a person being on that mountain. Just some food for thought.

I'm going to push back a little bit on this.  James can and does solo.  I was going to name a few, but this is from wikipedia: 

Hetfield occasionally plays guitar solos on songs such as "Nothing Else Matters", "My Friend of Misery", "Just a Bullet Away", the outro solo on "The Outlaw Torn", the second solo on "To Live Is to Die", the first solo on "Suicide and Redemption", the first interlude solo on "Master of Puppets", and the harmonized solo on "Orion". He also writes the majority of the guitar harmonies, as well as writing the lyrics, vocal melodies, and co-arranging the songs with Ulrich.

I wouldn't knock him just because he chooses to view himself as more of a rhythm player, since he has demonstrated that he can take leads, and can do so VERY competently (there are a lot of people that feel he is a better soloist than Hammett).  He just doesn't really view that as his place within the band.  And that fits in a band where you have two guitarists.  I think it's worth noting that the other guitarists on the list are in bands where they are the only guitarists, so they kind of have to play both or else it doesn't happen.  James not playing the majority of solos is more a function of Metallica's music and band structure than an inability to be a "complete guitarist," again as evidenced by the fact that he does take the occasional solo, and the solos that he plays are very good. 

[soupytwist]

Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?

[bosk1]

EDIT:  You know, actually, after doing a bit of research, I think she absolutely qualifies.  Relatively unknown nowadays, but I think that is largely a factor of the era in which she played.  I had no idea, but am impressed.  And she gets major metal cred for rocking a Gibson SG.  Props to Brother Soupy for putting that one out there.

[Adami]

Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?

Stadler in here to support this in 3....2...

[hefdaddy42]

Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?

Out there choice for hard rock/metal guitarists?  That's one way to put it.