Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album

[Enigmachine]

I also remember Tribe being uneven as hell, being very much a half-in, half-out album. Feels simultaneously like an iteration on Q2K as well as a development on HitNF.

he was in CG for a minute again playing fill in "imposter" to a great singer who sadly passed away  CG was far from a big band here in the USA... I really have no love for the guy and Im not here to wax about his skill,  if he was in Tates league at age 20 hed be a star  he was a replacement at best at age 40,  If you like him that super duper and enjoy, I dont like really anyone thats left in QR as its formed today. I dont see them as a super talented group just a band living off the old name QR. I dont think Wilton is very good and Jackson who really cares ,  the true core is long gone with Chris, Geoff and now Scott all gone, its wild the band is really now Todd and Parker and to me I have no interest, Ive listened to all their stuff and none of it feels like QR to me none of it is timeless and none of it hits any meaning inside me, Im not a fan of any of them as they are constructed today. I dont even like Caseys drumming .... so its a wrap for me as far as the music , I follow them for DRAMA and as Ive said many times I think their music would best suited  to be under another name other than QR which at this point IMO they no longer sound or feel like,  Its silly that they want to be all METAL now it feels odd and desperate even, its going backwards to me, Tate is at least aging well and to me that was part of the QR evolution that was the human experience in music, us older fans really were ok with that and it felt real , Im happy Tate is taking that path as it feel correct to me

Imposter is honestly kind of a childish way to put it. He never claimed to be Midnight himself and just because CG didn't sell millions, doesn't mean they aren't an important part of the history of 80s metal. I do wonder what exactly he was supposed to do here. Is being the frontman of a cult classic US power metal band (who were also planning to write an album with him doing vocals) for three years not enough to join Queensryche (a band that, prior to Todd's entrance, had just released their most despised album thanks to Tate's ill advised direction and pretty much had nothing to lose, so weren't exactly at the top of the world either)? It's easy to see how the 2013 self titled album was viewed like such a redemption in the wake of such an PR disaster for the band. The fact that you have no love for him is apparent but again, you can't deny that he's worked hard to get to where he is. This isn't about whether either of us like him or not, but merely about acknowledging his efforts, regardless of whether they're to our tastes.

Wilton was also the foundational member of the band when the band initially started, being in before either Tate or DeGarmo. Those two may have asserted more influnece on balance afterwards, but on the EP, both Wilton and DeGarmo have equal music credits and on the Warning, Wilton has more with 6 against DeGarmo's 5. However, you saying that it's silly that they want to be metal now kind of tells all here. That's fine if you prefer Queensryche's more understated approach, but I myself am also a fan of that harder edged angle of Todd era Queensryche (not necessarily prefer, but I don't have a firm preference either way honestly, at least stylistically) and I think that's the case with a lot of people who've followed them (including many older fans from what I gather, so I don't think you can necessarily speak for that group of people). It's a valid approach and I don't think there's anything inherently silly about moving to a more explicitly metal sound.

I also really question the idea that it's somehow a desperate move because the most likely situation is that the current members of Queensryche are simply fans of heavier music than was the case with Geoff Tate and Chris DeGarmo. I don't think it's desperate to commit to a style that one likes. Queensryche seem to have just as much clout (if not more, arguably) in the glam metal / hard rock sphere built up with an album like Empire as they do in the trad metal / US power metal scene so if anything, the former would've arguably been the obvious, perhaps desperate move to restore fame. I also don't think it's going backwards because it's still a new direction for them. Prior to 2013, they've never done anything as consistently heavy and metallic as Todd era Queensryche. Is it innovative? I couldn't really care less because it's not really like they have anything to prove in that regard. It's harder and harder to innovate musically anyway these days, particularly if the root of your sound is still in the 80s to some degree. I think it'd be arguable that if they went djent or something, that it'd be even more difficult to draw a line between classic Queensryche and Todd era and if they copied their old sound verbatim, then they truly would be going backwards. It's one of those cases where they can never fully win if you judge them on the basis of both doing something innovative and wanting them to still have the spirit of the classics.

its funny many of us older QR fans think their unplugged session on MTV was beyond stellar and maybe their best performance in some ways,,, does anyone think Todd and the band can do that today? anything even close?  I dont think Todd can perform at all in an acoustic setting nor the band today.. Tate was still can with no net to catch him can still pull it off, not like he did at age 40 but can still do it right now. and for that I think hes really something special, I know hes lost a step but still at age 62?

MTV Unplugged... isn't a thing anymore, though? If they did do something like that with the current lineup, I'm sure I'd probably like it. After all, I like Todd's performances on stuff like Open Road (and this seems pretty good to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWlgLp1L82Y but I'm sure you'll hate it due to it featuring Todd). I'm not really sure what point this is trying to prove?

[bosk1]

^Yeah, I agree with most of that.  My main quibble would be with the metal sound being new for them.  Yes, they had an experimental element in their early days.  But they were also "heavy," at least for the era that the EP through Mindcrime were written in.  I would say the three Todd albums fall into today's conception of "heavy" to a similar degree that those earlier albums did back then.

It's interesting now to look back on the post-DeGarmo albums with a different perspective than I had back then.

When Q2K came out, I liked it.  I didn't love it, but despite being different, I gave it a chance.  Ultimately, only a handful of the songs have any staying power.  Liquid Sky and Right Side are pretty good--not great, but I still like them.  Breakdown is also good, and I gained an appreciation for Burning Man seeing it live at the Live Evolution show (day 2).  None of those are compelling reasons to pull the album off the shelf on any but the rarest of occasions.  But they aren't bad.  Nothing else on the album, or the tracks that didn't make it, interests me.  But it was clear they were going through an extreme transition and trying to find themselves.  I don't like the album.  But I don't hold it against them for where they were.

Tribe is...interesting.  At the time, I really felt like it was a return to form.  The dark vibe and the heaviness drew me in.  And it also spawned the DT/QR/FW tour, which was a dream come true for me.  But it is a VERY inconsistent album for me.  In retrospect, about 1/3 of the songs are great, about 1/3 are decent, and the other 1/3 are some of the worst of their career.  Because of that inconsistency, it just has no staying power. 

Mindcrime II has serious problems, despite being arguably better overall than its two predecessors.  My initial reaction before digesting it was really positive.  They did a lot of things right.  Slater captured some signature QR elements.  There was just enough musical connective tissue to the original that it felt rewarding to listen to.  The story seemed interesting and compelling.  But the thing about an album like that is that it takes time to really digest and figure out.  And that is something that usually provide a big payoff during the classic era of Queensryche.  With Mindcrime II, it actually led to a huge letdown.  The more I dug into it, the more I disliked the album and became frustrated and disillusioned with it.  At the end of the day, the story was incredibly disappointing, and the drama felt far overdone and overshadowed how weak the story was.  And the music itself wasn't as consistent as it needed to be.  There are some outstanding tracks, especially on the frontside of the album.  Some of the experimentation they did was also very cool.  But the downturn in both musical and story/lyrical content on the last 1/3 of the album really dragged it down.

I won't rate the covers album.  I don't really find it meaningful to do that with covers albums.  Overall, I didn't care for it, and some of the performances, especially Tate's, were lackluster if not downright bad.  But I can respect the fact that they made a lot of unconventional choices.  And it led to a really cool tour (I just wish I could give the contest another go when I could be healthy, because I know for a fact I could easily be in the top 3 for that finals spot to have sung on the next album).  And a few of the songs (Neon Knights, Welcome to Machine, and Synchronicity II) were actually really cool.

American Soldier fared similarly with me as Mindcrime II.  LOVED it when it first came out.  But the more I listened, the more frustrated  I became.  The difference is, with this album, my frustration is aimed almost solely at Tate.  This is an album that easily could have been great.  Musically, it is pretty awesome.  At most, the album has two duds (and I would probably say one on most days), and a resequencing of the album mostly kind of cures the impact of one of them.  But the vocals are a disaster and ruin a lot of the songs.  This could have been one of my favorite QR albums.  And the fact that it isn't is due to things that could have been avoided, which is incredibly frustrating.  And it is symptomatic of what was going wrong with the band during this entire era.  More and more, one person and one person only was in charge.  And that person was losing capability to steer the band in a direction that was satisfying or interesting.  Geoff's vocals were deteriorating severely.  And as that paralleled his taking control of the overall direction of the band, the direction of the band also deteriorated.  And this is my long-winded way of saying that I am right there with a lot of fans that don't care for the post-CGD are of the band up to the point where they fired Tate and brought Todd in. 

[Enigmachine]

^Yeah, I agree with most of that.  My main quibble would be with the metal sound being new for them.  Yes, they had an experimental element in their early days.  But they were also "heavy," at least for the era that the EP through Mindcrime were written in.  I would say the three Todd albums fall into today's conception of "heavy" to a similar degree that those earlier albums did back then.

Oh yeah I get that. I personally see adapting to the times as some form of novelty (after all, many bands of QR's age still stick to a version of their sound that can't exactly be called contemporary) so I still see them as novel to a certain degree but I understand how, in a relative sense, it could be considered on a similar wavelength relative to its surroundings.

[kirksnosehair]

^Yeah, I agree with most of that.  My main quibble would be with the metal sound being new for them.  Yes, they had an experimental element in their early days.  But they were also "heavy," at least for the era that the EP through Mindcrime were written in.  I would say the three Todd albums fall into today's conception of "heavy" to a similar degree that those earlier albums did back then.

It's interesting now to look back on the post-DeGarmo albums with a different perspective than I had back then.

When Q2K came out, I liked it.  I didn't love it, but despite being different, I gave it a chance.  Ultimately, only a handful of the songs have any staying power.  Liquid Sky and Right Side are pretty good--not great, but I still like them.  Breakdown is also good, and I gained an appreciation for Burning Man seeing it live at the Live Evolution show (day 2).  None of those are compelling reasons to pull the album off the shelf on any but the rarest of occasions.  But they aren't bad.  Nothing else on the album, or the tracks that didn't make it, interests me.  But it was clear they were going through an extreme transition and trying to find themselves.  I don't like the album.  But I don't hold it against them for where they were.

Tribe is...interesting.  At the time, I really felt like it was a return to form.  The dark vibe and the heaviness drew me in.  And it also spawned the DT/QR/FW tour, which was a dream come true for me.  But it is a VERY inconsistent album for me.  In retrospect, about 1/3 of the songs are great, about 1/3 are decent, and the other 1/3 are some of the worst of their career.  Because of that inconsistency, it just has no staying power. 

Mindcrime II has serious problems, despite being arguably better overall than its two predecessors.  My initial reaction before digesting it was really positive.  They did a lot of things right.  Slater captured some signature QR elements.  There was just enough musical connective tissue to the original that it felt rewarding to listen to.  The story seemed interesting and compelling.  But the thing about an album like that is that it takes time to really digest and figure out.  And that is something that usually provide a big payoff during the classic era of Queensryche.  With Mindcrime II, it actually led to a huge letdown.  The more I dug into it, the more I disliked the album and became frustrated and disillusioned with it.  At the end of the day, the story was incredibly disappointing, and the drama felt far overdone and overshadowed how weak the story was.  And the music itself wasn't as consistent as it needed to be.  There are some outstanding tracks, especially on the frontside of the album.  Some of the experimentation they did was also very cool.  But the downturn in both musical and story/lyrical content on the last 1/3 of the album really dragged it down.

I won't rate the covers album.  I don't really find it meaningful to do that with covers albums.  Overall, I didn't care for it, and some of the performances, especially Tate's, were lackluster if not downright bad.  But I can respect the fact that they made a lot of unconventional choices.  And it led to a really cool tour (I just wish I could give the contest another go when I could be healthy, because I know for a fact I could easily be in the top 3 for that finals spot to have sung on the next album).  And a few of the songs (Neon Knights, Welcome to Machine, and Synchronicity II) were actually really cool.

American Soldier fared similarly with me as Mindcrime II.  LOVED it when it first came out.  But the more I listened, the more frustrated  I became.  The difference is, with this album, my frustration is aimed almost solely at Tate.  This is an album that easily could have been great.  Musically, it is pretty awesome.  At most, the album has two duds (and I would probably say one on most days), and a resequencing of the album mostly kind of cures the impact of one of them.  But the vocals are a disaster and ruin a lot of the songs.  This could have been one of my favorite QR albums.  And the fact that it isn't is due to things that could have been avoided, which is incredibly frustrating.  And it is symptomatic of what was going wrong with the band during this entire era.  More and more, one person and one person only was in charge.  And that person was losing capability to steer the band in a direction that was satisfying or interesting.  Geoff's vocals were deteriorating severely.  And as that paralleled his taking control of the overall direction of the band, the direction of the band also deteriorated.  And this is my long-winded way of saying that I am right there with a lot of fans that don't care for the post-CGD are of the band up to the point where they fired Tate and brought Todd in.

I had the same reaction to those albums.  I think it was because I really kind of desperately wanted to like them.  I've always thought that Queensryche was one of those bands that never quite managed to fully live up to its massive potential.  The peaked with Operation Mindcrime.  There have been some flashes of brilliance since then, especially on Empire, but Queensryche always struck me as a band that was defined by missed opportunity after missed opportunity, all exacerbated by the antics of their massively egotistical lead vocalist whose huge ego was a complete mismatch to his rapidly declining capabilities, especially in the last two or three years he was with them.   

[EPICVIEW]

I also remember Tribe being uneven as hell, being very much a half-in, half-out album. Feels simultaneously like an iteration on Q2K as well as a development on HitNF.

he was in CG for a minute again playing fill in "imposter" to a great singer who sadly passed away  CG was far from a big band here in the USA... I really have no love for the guy and Im not here to wax about his skill,  if he was in Tates league at age 20 hed be a star  he was a replacement at best at age 40,  If you like him that super duper and enjoy, I dont like really anyone thats left in QR as its formed today. I dont see them as a super talented group just a band living off the old name QR. I dont think Wilton is very good and Jackson who really cares ,  the true core is long gone with Chris, Geoff and now Scott all gone, its wild the band is really now Todd and Parker and to me I have no interest, Ive listened to all their stuff and none of it feels like QR to me none of it is timeless and none of it hits any meaning inside me, Im not a fan of any of them as they are constructed today. I dont even like Caseys drumming .... so its a wrap for me as far as the music , I follow them for DRAMA and as Ive said many times I think their music would best suited  to be under another name other than QR which at this point IMO they no longer sound or feel like,  Its silly that they want to be all METAL now it feels odd and desperate even, its going backwards to me, Tate is at least aging well and to me that was part of the QR evolution that was the human experience in music, us older fans really were ok with that and it felt real , Im happy Tate is taking that path as it feel correct to me

Imposter is honestly kind of a childish way to put it. He never claimed to be Midnight himself and just because CG didn't sell millions, doesn't mean they aren't an important part of the history of 80s metal. I do wonder what exactly he was supposed to do here. Is being the frontman of a cult classic US power metal band (who were also planning to write an album with him doing vocals) for three years not enough to join Queensryche (a band that, prior to Todd's entrance, had just released their most despised album thanks to Tate's ill advised direction and pretty much had nothing to lose, so weren't exactly at the top of the world either)? It's easy to see how the 2013 self titled album was viewed like such a redemption in the wake of such an PR disaster for the band. The fact that you have no love for him is apparent but again, you can't deny that he's worked hard to get to where he is. This isn't about whether either of us like him or not, but merely about acknowledging his efforts, regardless of whether they're to our tastes.

Wilton was also the foundational member of the band when the band initially started, being in before either Tate or DeGarmo. Those two may have asserted more influnece on balance afterwards, but on the EP, both Wilton and DeGarmo have equal music credits and on the Warning, Wilton has more with 6 against DeGarmo's 5. However, you saying that it's silly that they want to be metal now kind of tells all here. That's fine if you prefer Queensryche's more understated approach, but I myself am also a fan of that harder edged angle of Todd era Queensryche (not necessarily prefer, but I don't have a firm preference either way honestly, at least stylistically) and I think that's the case with a lot of people who've followed them (including many older fans from what I gather, so I don't think you can necessarily speak for that group of people). It's a valid approach and I don't think there's anything inherently silly about moving to a more explicitly metal sound.

I also really question the idea that it's somehow a desperate move because the most likely situation is that the current members of Queensryche are simply fans of heavier music than was the case with Geoff Tate and Chris DeGarmo. I don't think it's desperate to commit to a style that one likes. Queensryche seem to have just as much clout (if not more, arguably) in the glam metal / hard rock sphere built up with an album like Empire as they do in the trad metal / US power metal scene so if anything, the former would've arguably been the obvious, perhaps desperate move to restore fame. I also don't think it's going backwards because it's still a new direction for them. Prior to 2013, they've never done anything as consistently heavy and metallic as Todd era Queensryche. Is it innovative? I couldn't really care less because it's not really like they have anything to prove in that regard. It's harder and harder to innovate musically anyway these days, particularly if the root of your sound is still in the 80s to some degree. I think it'd be arguable that if they went djent or something, that it'd be even more difficult to draw a line between classic Queensryche and Todd era and if they copied their old sound verbatim, then they truly would be going backwards. It's one of those cases where they can never fully win if you judge them on the basis of both doing something innovative and wanting them to still have the spirit of the classics.

its funny many of us older QR fans think their unplugged session on MTV was beyond stellar and maybe their best performance in some ways,,, does anyone think Todd and the band can do that today? anything even close?  I dont think Todd can perform at all in an acoustic setting nor the band today.. Tate was still can with no net to catch him can still pull it off, not like he did at age 40 but can still do it right now. and for that I think hes really something special, I know hes lost a step but still at age 62?

MTV Unplugged... isn't a thing anymore, though? If they did do something like that with the current lineup, I'm sure I'd probably like it. After all, I like Todd's performances on stuff like Open Road (and this seems pretty good to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWlgLp1L82Y but I'm sure you'll hate it due to it featuring Todd). I'm not really sure what point this is trying to prove?

My simple point is if Todd was this massively talented singer he would have formed a band and would have become known and signed at say age 20.... Like Tate was.  Tate formed Myth and was found and QR was signed on his talent,  Tate was gonna be star period with or without QR and his voice was his gift. I agree its not  fair to compare but in this arena comparing is the discussion,   does anyone know of any early teen years 20 or 30s Latorre bands and his output that shows me Im missing something here?

my other point is QRs whole hallmark was "evolution" mans growth   the human experience,  to me to just try to "recapture" their 20s again with METAL to me feels desperate,  like a mid life crisis... Not what the band was about  ,I think Chris would agree as his evolving in HITNF and then to out of the band to become a good husband and father to me is more QR as he walked the walk.   whatever Todssryche is I think its would be better served unshackled from the QR name  it was supposed to Rising West and one off deal  etc

[EPICVIEW]

^Yeah, I agree with most of that.  My main quibble would be with the metal sound being new for them.  Yes, they had an experimental element in their early days.  But they were also "heavy," at least for the era that the EP through Mindcrime were written in.  I would say the three Todd albums fall into today's conception of "heavy" to a similar degree that those earlier albums did back then.

It's interesting now to look back on the post-DeGarmo albums with a different perspective than I had back then.

When Q2K came out, I liked it.  I didn't love it, but despite being different, I gave it a chance.  Ultimately, only a handful of the songs have any staying power.  Liquid Sky and Right Side are pretty good--not great, but I still like them.  Breakdown is also good, and I gained an appreciation for Burning Man seeing it live at the Live Evolution show (day 2).  None of those are compelling reasons to pull the album off the shelf on any but the rarest of occasions.  But they aren't bad.  Nothing else on the album, or the tracks that didn't make it, interests me.  But it was clear they were going through an extreme transition and trying to find themselves.  I don't like the album.  But I don't hold it against them for where they were.

Tribe is...interesting.  At the time, I really felt like it was a return to form.  The dark vibe and the heaviness drew me in.  And it also spawned the DT/QR/FW tour, which was a dream come true for me.  But it is a VERY inconsistent album for me.  In retrospect, about 1/3 of the songs are great, about 1/3 are decent, and the other 1/3 are some of the worst of their career.  Because of that inconsistency, it just has no staying power. 

Mindcrime II has serious problems, despite being arguably better overall than its two predecessors.  My initial reaction before digesting it was really positive.  They did a lot of things right.  Slater captured some signature QR elements.  There was just enough musical connective tissue to the original that it felt rewarding to listen to.  The story seemed interesting and compelling.  But the thing about an album like that is that it takes time to really digest and figure out.  And that is something that usually provide a big payoff during the classic era of Queensryche.  With Mindcrime II, it actually led to a huge letdown.  The more I dug into it, the more I disliked the album and became frustrated and disillusioned with it.  At the end of the day, the story was incredibly disappointing, and the drama felt far overdone and overshadowed how weak the story was.  And the music itself wasn't as consistent as it needed to be.  There are some outstanding tracks, especially on the frontside of the album.  Some of the experimentation they did was also very cool.  But the downturn in both musical and story/lyrical content on the last 1/3 of the album really dragged it down.

I won't rate the covers album.  I don't really find it meaningful to do that with covers albums.  Overall, I didn't care for it, and some of the performances, especially Tate's, were lackluster if not downright bad.  But I can respect the fact that they made a lot of unconventional choices.  And it led to a really cool tour (I just wish I could give the contest another go when I could be healthy, because I know for a fact I could easily be in the top 3 for that finals spot to have sung on the next album).  And a few of the songs (Neon Knights, Welcome to Machine, and Synchronicity II) were actually really cool.

American Soldier fared similarly with me as Mindcrime II.  LOVED it when it first came out.  But the more I listened, the more frustrated  I became.  The difference is, with this album, my frustration is aimed almost solely at Tate.  This is an album that easily could have been great.  Musically, it is pretty awesome.  At most, the album has two duds (and I would probably say one on most days), and a resequencing of the album mostly kind of cures the impact of one of them.  But the vocals are a disaster and ruin a lot of the songs.  This could have been one of my favorite QR albums.  And the fact that it isn't is due to things that could have been avoided, which is incredibly frustrating.  And it is symptomatic of what was going wrong with the band during this entire era.  More and more, one person and one person only was in charge.  And that person was losing capability to steer the band in a direction that was satisfying or interesting.  Geoff's vocals were deteriorating severely.  And as that paralleled his taking control of the overall direction of the band, the direction of the band also deteriorated.  And this is my long-winded way of saying that I am right there with a lot of fans that don't care for the post-CGD are of the band up to the point where they fired Tate and brought Todd in.

I dont disagree with most of that Boss   Id only add Tate was not fired over artistic difference or his voice...he was fired over an emotional brawl between the wives and his daughter that Scott became too involved in.  Its kinda funny now that we see Scott again acting erratic and now divorced from said wife and he as made up with Geoff.  The albums were a simple vehicle to be used to conceptually tour on as thats where they made their money and they made good money touring unlike both entities today.   I didnt love AS that much. I loved the idea of it... again its not like Tate was surrounded with much help and as we see Todd is now doing the majority of the work and to me thats part of why to me IMO it doesnt sound or feel like what I call QR.    This band is #1 at DRAMA  LOL 

[bosk1]

My simple point is if Todd was this massively talented singer he would have formed a band and would have become known and signed at say age 20.... Like Tate was.

  No, that doesn't follow at all.  There are TONS of talented singers and musicians who don't get signed at age 20, for LOTS of different reasons.  Sometimes, they just have bad luck and don't get discovered.  Sometimes, they aren't interested in being in a band.  Lots of different reasons.  That's just not a good argument at all.

I dont disagree with most of that Boss   Id only add Tate was not fired over artistic difference or his voice...he was fired over an emotional brawl between the wives and his daughter that Scott became too involved in. 

I have a couple of problems with that.

Yes, he was fired, in part, over a "brawl."  But I don't understand your characterization of it.  It was a literal brawl where he physically attacked two of his bandmates. 

Second, let's keep in mind the whole picture.  He was fired, primarily, for two things:  (1) the band discovered that he and his family were mismanaging the band's money, and attempting to steal from the rest of the band, including selling the rights to Mindcrime without their knowledge and consent, and (2) for the above-mentioned physical assault.  He wasn't technically fired over "creative differences."  But they couldn't easily fire him over creative differences.  There really isn't any dispute that pretty severe creative differences existed for quite some time, and the rest of the band were not happy with the band's direction. 

[Setzer]

Tate formed Myth and was found and QR was signed on his talent,  Tate was gonna be star period with or without QR and his voice was his gift.

Please Tate was going no where in either Babylon or Myth. As soon as Queensr˙che's demo (EP - with their songs) started getting attention, Tate jumped ship.
His solo stuff clearly shows that he can't write interesting vocal melodies to save his life. Queensr˙che's early success was the sum of its parts. Not just Tate entering the stage with a great voice.

[EPICVIEW]

Hi Boss,
My point is before age 40 Todd was only a fill in for Midnight and now Tate. He had no career and if he was this massive talent he could be found,,, he found Wilton.  Labels are always looking for talent. just odd that all I can find on him is him doing covers, my point is more about Tate .

I never bought off on the BS that "Tate was trying to steal and sell OMC and run away with the cash"   thats just ludicrous and impossible.  Those deals take lots of legal money, time and the whole band including Chris would hve to sign off on it...Tate also never pulled a knife on Wilton as was rumored ,,,LOL

When Scott fired Tates daughter and his wife with the other 2 supporting it  to appease Scotts wife that he now divorced ( cant make it up  wild ) Id be livid too,,,, It was so petty it was over the selling of the merch and fan club revenue and salaries.  Tate was  taunted and fired before he got physical , the brawl was Tates reaction to it and I have to say Im not upset by his actions in defense of his wife and daughter, it didnt help that Parker had been slagging his daughter post divorce,

[EPICVIEW]

Tate formed Myth and was found and QR was signed on his talent,  Tate was gonna be star period with or without QR and his voice was his gift.

Please Tate was going no where in either Babylon or Myth. As soon as Queensr˙che's demo (EP - with their songs) started getting attention, Tate jumped ship.
His solo stuff clearly shows that he can't write interesting vocal melodies to save his life. Queensr˙che's early success was the sum of its parts. Not just Tate entering the stage with a great voice.

Tate was going to be a star..  it was not the music on the EP that was wowing anyone  it was Tates voice.  Tate is the only star in QR in reality.  If Tate "didnt as you say jump ship" theyd not have been signed   

[bosk1]

Regarding Mindcrime, you can believe what you like, but the facts are documented, and there isn't any evidence refuting them.  So your disbelief isn't really based on anything other than your feelings. 

As far as the wives, that is a very...let's just say "interesting" interpretation of the facts that, likewise, isn't really supported by any of the evidence in the record.

[Enigmachine]

Yeah I second what Bosk said. The arbitrary idea that Todd has to be straight in with his own major label band in his 20s is ludicrous and feels like a deliberately placed hurdle to try and measure the two up. The fact is, Wilton, Jackson and Rockenfield liked his voice enough to want to make music with him. Isn't that basically... the exact same thing that happened with Geoff Tate? I personally couldn't care less also whether Todd era is considered legitimate, because it's not really any less so than any of the rest of the non-DeGarmo material. If anything, it marked a resurgeance in Wilton's songwriting credits and got Jackson and Rockenfield much more involved too.

As for the "to just try to "recapture" their 20s again with METAL to me feels desperate,  like a mid life crisis..." quote, that's just kind of silly to me. Can people that are middle aged not honestly want to make heavy music without it being seen as a midlife crisis? The fact is, for most of the band's output after The Warning, Michael Wilton had a drastically reduced presence (NO credits on the last two Geoff albums) in the songwriting department. It's highly likely that Todd era Queensryche is simply a product of the tastes of the people writing it. Scanning the wiki page, Wilton is into bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and Van Halen, while Torre is into Testament, Dio and Pantera. With that in mind, is it really a surprise that the last 3 QR albums have turned out the way they did, with those influences in mind? It feels like the opposite of desperate, because they could've easily done away with stuff like the abrasive breakdown at the end of Guardian for fear of rustling the feathers of people who may have wanted QR to do re-runs of Empire.

The feeling I get from those albums is relief. They were no longer beholden to Geoff's poor leadership and free to make music that they actually seemed to want to make. Given that founding members of the band were essentially reduced to session musicians, Geoff's firing really was inevitable. It's fair to say that the fan reception has vindicated their decision, given the widespread praise for these albums and the disparity between the reception of them and pretty much anything Geoff has been on in the last few decades (other than maybe Sweet Oblivion) speaks for itself.

If you don't like it... that's okay, but it's needless to denigrate a move that seems to have come fairly naturally for the band as desperate simply because it doesn't meet your tastes.

Tate was going to be a star..  it was not the music on the EP that was wowing anyone  it was Tates voice.  Tate is the only star in QR in reality.  If Tate "didnt as you say jump ship" theyd not have been signed   

Except without quality songs, even phenomenal vocalists would struggle to gain any sort of traction. Tate was great, for sure. However, he needed a band behind him to actually serve his voice. QR is not Geoff's vehicle alone, it's a band.

[EPICVIEW]

Regarding Mindcrime, you can believe what you like, but the facts are documented, and there isn't any evidence refuting them.  So your disbelief isn't really based on anything other than your feelings. 

As far as the wives, that is a very...let's just say "interesting" interpretation of the facts that, likewise, isn't really supported by any of the evidence in the record.

On the record is what was to be used in a legal proceeding..: )   I agree its all interesting

If you have access to those docs Id be glad to take look and comment I believe they were available a while back, but as we know the truth and what a lawyer can make the truth are not always the same truth..

[EPICVIEW]

Yeah I second what Bosk said. The arbitrary idea that Todd has to be straight in with his own major label band in his 20s is ludicrous and feels like a deliberately placed hurdle to try and measure the two up. The fact is, Wilton, Jackson and Rockenfield liked his voice enough to want to make music with him. Isn't that basically... the exact same thing that happened with Geoff Tate? I personally couldn't care less also whether Todd era is considered legitimate, because it's not really any less so than any of the rest of the non-DeGarmo material. If anything, it marked a resurgeance in Wilton's songwriting credits and got Jackson and Rockenfield much more involved too.

As for the "to just try to "recapture" their 20s again with METAL to me feels desperate,  like a mid life crisis..." quote, that's just kind of silly to me. Can people that are middle aged not honestly want to make heavy music without it being seen as a midlife crisis? The fact is, for most of the band's output after The Warning, Michael Wilton had a drastically reduced presence (NO credits on the last two Geoff albums) in the songwriting department. It's highly likely that Todd era Queensryche is simply a product of the tastes of the people writing it. Scanning the wiki page, Wilton is into bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and Van Halen, while Torre is into Testament, Dio and Pantera. With that in mind, is it really a surprise that the last 3 QR albums have turned out the way they did, with those influences in mind? It feels like the opposite of desperate, because they could've easily done away with stuff like the abrasive breakdown at the end of Guardian for fear of rustling the feathers of people who may have wanted QR to do re-runs of Empire.

The feeling I get from those albums is relief. They were no longer beholden to Geoff's poor leadership and free to make music that they actually seemed to want to make. Given that founding members of the band were essentially reduced to session musicians, Geoff's firing really was inevitable. It's fair to say that the fan reception has vindicated their decision, given the widespread praise for these albums and the disparity between the reception of them and pretty much anything Geoff has been on in the last few decades (other than maybe Sweet Oblivion) speaks for itself.

If you don't like it... that's okay, but it's needless to denigrate a move that seems to have come fairly naturally for the band as desperate simply because it doesn't meet your tastes.

Tate was going to be a star..  it was not the music on the EP that was wowing anyone  it was Tates voice.  Tate is the only star in QR in reality.  If Tate "didnt as you say jump ship" theyd not have been signed   

Except without quality songs, even phenomenal vocalists would struggle to gain any sort of traction. Tate was great, for sure. However, he needed a band behind him to actually serve his voice. QR is not Geoff's vehicle alone, it's a band.

I repeat,,, Tate was found and was going to be a star.  again  The Mob which became QR when Tate joined would not have been signed without Tate.  these are teenagers and teenage bands  thats my point,,, they all had songs  it was Tates voice that was the sell.... to think otherwise is to me silly   its like saying Malmsteen wasnt the star in any band he was in at the time. it wasnt Keel or Bonnet or even JSS that was the reason we went to see Malmsteen.   In 1983 QR came on stage and we had barely any knowledge of them but " the singer was supposed to be amazing" we stood there and it was ONLY Tate we saw  not even Chris... Tate voice was mind blowing the other guys nobody spoke about , backstage Tate was the only one that anyone wanted to meet or talk with. thats reality

Same with Malmsteen, the rest of his amazing band might as well have been cut outs backstage in 82 83,  This pretty normal as usually one guy is the star...  sometimes its 2 guys.. unless youre the beatles LOL


you claim the band and or LOL founding members ( which includes Geoff ) were unhappy with being beholden to Geoffs leadership. seems Scott is not happy with their direction now again either   so whos the leader now?  Id say not one of the founding members as you call them.  This is why I want the name QR to be shelved.   I agree that when Geoff joined The Mob and it became QR there was magic but id also argue that the band needed Geoff more than Geoff needed them.  Id also argue without Geoff QR would not ever be signed, and Geoff out of all them had the best chance to breakthrough...  its a fun discussion   

[EPICVIEW]

Tate formed Myth and was found and QR was signed on his talent,  Tate was gonna be star period with or without QR and his voice was his gift.

Please Tate was going no where in either Babylon or Myth. As soon as Queensr˙che's demo (EP - with their songs) started getting attention, Tate jumped ship.
His solo stuff clearly shows that he can't write interesting vocal melodies to save his life. Queensr˙che's early success was the sum of its parts. Not just Tate entering the stage with a great voice.

'

The Mob was going NO PLACE  without Tate  much easier for a label to build a band like The Mob around Tate than for The Mob to find a mind altering singer like Tate.   in the nonsense of teenager bands as far as I tell the only cough founding member of what became QR is actually Scott as his house was home base  LOL   Many bands were being created back then around a star   

does anyone know who was the back up to Tate or who sung the EP songs before Tate ?  :  ) 

[EPICVIEW]

Tate formed Myth and was found and QR was signed on his talent,  Tate was gonna be star period with or without QR and his voice was his gift.

Please Tate was going no where in either Babylon or Myth. As soon as Queensr˙che's demo (EP - with their songs) started getting attention, Tate jumped ship.
His solo stuff clearly shows that he can't write interesting vocal melodies to save his life. Queensr˙che's early success was the sum of its parts. Not just Tate entering the stage with a great voice.

are there any tapes of The Mob with another singer besides Tate?  I cant imagine there is? is there?  Its fun to think 5 guys 5 parts all parts equal   :not all parts are equal though  : )   do you think if Jackson left in 1985 anything post that would be different?  not much different IMO    Management and the Label would find a replacement in a week  many bands had members come and go  Ozzy had a new bass player yearly it felt like

I dont agree on Tates solo stuff   his first solo cd was very very good and I like a lot of his post QR stuff...

[TAC]

EPICVIEW, you have typed more words in the past two days than you have in the last ten years.

[bosk1]

And most of them wrong.

[EPICVIEW]

EPICVIEW, you have typed more words in the past two days than you have in the last ten years.

I got inspired  : )

[EPICVIEW]

And most of them wrong.

a matter of perspective... at least I cut back on typos : )

[Cruithne]

Tate was going to be a star..  it was not the music on the EP that was wowing anyone  it was Tates voice.  Tate is the only star in QR in reality.  If Tate "didnt as you say jump ship" theyd not have been signed

Oh come off it. The world is full of immensely talented musicians who never made it because they never had the right vehicle for that talent, because they didn't have the songs and Myth quite patently didn't have the songs.

Tate needed QR. QR needed Tate.

[Enigmachine]

you claim the band and or LOL founding members ( which includes Geoff ) were unhappy with being beholden to Geoffs leadership. seems Scott is not happy with their direction now again either   so whos the leader now?  Id say not one of the founding members as you call them.  This is why I want the name QR to be shelved.   I agree that when Geoff joined The Mob and it became QR there was magic but id also argue that the band needed Geoff more than Geoff needed them.  Id also argue without Geoff QR would not ever be signed, and Geoff out of all them had the best chance to breakthrough...  its a fun discussion

I mean... it's true? Geoff is not a founding member of the band, they formed in 81 while he came in the following year. The original four were Wilton, Jackson, Rockenfield and DeGarmo. The proportion of original members is the same proportion as Dream Theater. It's not an identical situation, what with DeGarmo and Tate having more influence over the band's sound, but if you want this to be a purity test, then it has to be conceded that the band still has at least traces of its original form. Wilton said himself: "the last 3 years, basically it just came to a point that we didn't have a voice in the band anymore. It was all run by the singer and his manager, the wife." That's not the sign of a healthy band chemistry when founding members of the band feel like they don't have a say. In terms of creative output, it's hard to say who's the leader now because, judging from the credits, the process looks far more collaborative than it has been for a while. I think that's a better outcome than "All songs written by Jason Slater and Geoff Tate except where noted." You also can believe that QR would never get signed without Geoff all you want, but the fact is that Myth didn't get signed. It took a team to make it work.

I'll also repeat... you can't ignore that the critical and fan reception to the Todd era has been near-unanimously more positive than the decade prior. Even now with the Rockenfield drama, they're in a much better position in terms of public good will than they were in 2011 with Dedicated to Chaos, where I think it's fair to say that many fans had pretty much given up on the band.

[EPICVIEW]

you claim the band and or LOL founding members ( which includes Geoff ) were unhappy with being beholden to Geoffs leadership. seems Scott is not happy with their direction now again either   so whos the leader now?  Id say not one of the founding members as you call them.  This is why I want the name QR to be shelved.   I agree that when Geoff joined The Mob and it became QR there was magic but id also argue that the band needed Geoff more than Geoff needed them.  Id also argue without Geoff QR would not ever be signed, and Geoff out of all them had the best chance to breakthrough...  its a fun discussion

I mean... it's true? Geoff is not a founding member of the band, they formed in 81 while he came in the following year. The original four were Wilton, Jackson, Rockenfield and DeGarmo. The proportion of original members is the same proportion as Dream Theater. It's not an identical situation, what with DeGarmo and Tate having more influence over the band's sound, but if you want this to be a purity test, then it has to be conceded that the band still has at least traces of its original form. Wilton said himself: "the last 3 years, basically it just came to a point that we didn't have a voice in the band anymore. It was all run by the singer and his manager, the wife." That's not the sign of a healthy band chemistry when founding members of the band feel like they don't have a say. In terms of creative output, it's hard to say who's the leader now because, judging from the credits, the process looks far more collaborative than it has been for a while. I think that's a better outcome than "All songs written by Jason Slater and Geoff Tate except where noted." You also can believe that QR would never get signed without Geoff all you want, but the fact is that Myth didn't get signed. It took a team to make it work.

I'll also repeat... you can't ignore that the critical and fan reception to the Todd era has been near-unanimously more positive than the decade prior. Even now with the Rockenfield drama, they're in a much better position in terms of public good will than they were in 2011 with Dedicated to Chaos, where I think it's fair to say that many fans had pretty much given up on the band.

the band with Tate was way more popular and really none of the fan base had left. the band drew very well as always touring with Tate. The perceived "online" fans are not the fan base in reality  just a very small sample.  again the band ( kids jamming ) in 81 was The Mob, one could argue Tate was not a founding member of this teenage band called the Mob.  can you tell me who was the lead singer of the Mob was? can you tell me who the Founding Singer was of QR if not Tate?  again we are talking teenagers "jamming out"  nobody other than fun online talk doesn't think Tate is a founding member of QR

[Setzer]

Can you tell us which label Babylon or Myth feat. super star vocalist Geoff Tate were signed to?
We're waiting...

It's getting a bit boring. Were you ever a Queensr˙che fan, or just a Geoff Tate fan?

[EPICVIEW]

Can you tell us which label Babylon or Myth feat. super star vocalist Geoff Tate were signed to?
We're waiting...

It's getting a bit boring. Were you ever a Queensr˙che fan, or just a Geoff Tate fan?

I agree this is a tad boring.. any metal label would have signed Tate and formed a band around him during the 80s once he was found. Im not sure about the others in QR.  were you a fan of Malmsteen in 82 or a fan of the Rising Force Band as a total unit?   a far more talented band in many ways to QR,  100% didnt even know a band was on stage with Malmsteen.  Tates voice was the same immense talent .  do you have any recordings of the Mob with any other singer than Tate? or QR with any other singer?  Im curious  to me when I saw them in 83 they were Accept sounding with a mind altering singer that carried them, everyone I was with felt that way.  I remember thinking Scott was good but even Chris was just a decent guitarist that night, later we learned he was very important to song writing, but live nobody saw anything but Tates talent. To me Tate is 50% of the QR defining sound if not more .  This is not  Rush IMO were each guy was paramount to the sound and irreplaceable and each was a huge piece of the sound, we now have a band of 2 of lesser ingredients and some are still saying its QR...I think that proves that all are replaceble  If Wilton leaves and a pro player comes in would the sound change?   is QR really Jackson?  can the whole band be replaced?  LOL

[Enigmachine]

the band with Tate was way more popular and really none of the fan base had left. the band drew very well as always touring with Tate. The perceived "online" fans are not the fan base in reality  just a very small sample.  again the band ( kids jamming ) in 81 was The Mob, one could argue Tate was not a founding member of this teenage band called the Mob.  can you tell me who was the lead singer of the Mob was? can you tell me who the Founding Singer was of QR if not Tate?  again we are talking teenagers "jamming out"  nobody other than fun online talk doesn't think Tate is a founding member of QR

Oh yeah? Queensryche's 2013 self titled sold 13,659 in its first week in the US while Frequency Unknown sold 5,500 and Dedicated to Chaos sold 8,210. That disparity is indisputible. Fans had come back... and they weren't coming for Tate. Believe it or not, Condition Human even topped that at 14,000 in a declining album sales market. The Verdict sold 8,100 but that's pretty impressive considering the general trend of falling sales and a four year gap. Sure, album sales of American Soldier and everything prior make those numbers look a bit less impressive but 2009 was also before streaming services became more commonplace (Spotify was only one year into its existence after all). If we count streaming and YouTube views then it's an absolute landslide improvement for the Todd era, where those albums are more successful than anything since Empire. Man the Machine has 1.2m listens on Spotify. Even the most listened to song on Promised Land (Bridge at 641k) and Hear in the Now Frontier (Sign of the Times at 429k) doesn't quite measure up. That's not insigificant, even if we take into account new release biases. You would have to really do a lot of mental gymnastics to claim that the band didn't redeem themselves at least to some degree in the public eye in the last 8 years, given all this.

I agree this is a tad boring.. any metal label would have signed Tate and formed a band around him during the 80s once he was found. Im not sure about the others in QR.  were you a fan of Malmsteen in 82 or a fan of the Rising Force Band as a total unit?   a far more talented band in many ways to QR,  100% didnt even know a band was on stage with Malmsteen.

Okay, this is hilarious in hindsight, given that Yngwie has fallen deep and deeper into irrelevance after relying on his own vocals to drive the songs rather than the performances of world class singers. His sales figures rose exponentially in the 80s when he started focusing on more song-oriented tracks, which goes to prove the point. If Queensryche weren't as tight as they were and didn't drive the songs along as effectively as they did, it would've fallen into irrelevance fast. There are a ton of bands with incredible vocalists that don't get clout because their songs were mediocre. Geoff Tate is important... but he's not the only draw. Queen of the Reich would be a damned fine metal song with slicing riffs and a restless youthful energy even if it was sung by a James Hetfield or a Dave Mustaine, in my opinion. Plus, if Todd didn't do what he did well, then I highly doubt we'd see things like that stark sales boost.

I remember thinking Scott was good but even Chris was just a decent guitarist that night, later we learned he was very important to song writing, but live nobody saw anything but Tates talent. To me Tate is 50% of the QR defining sound if not more .  This is not  Rush IMO were each guy was paramount to the sound and irreplaceable and each was a huge piece of the sound, we now have a band of 2 of lesser ingredients and some are still saying its QR...I think that proves that all are replaceble  If Wilton leaves and a pro player comes in would the sound change?   is QR really Jackson?  can the whole band be replaced?  LOL

Somehow, I feel like the concept of a band having a particular chemistry between multiple members has slipped you by. Just because the musical content of some members is more behind the scenes, it doesn't make them any less crucial. QR has very classy layered guitar parts, a rock solid and tight rhythmic foundation, incredibly paced solos and often very slick production values that allow something like Geoff's voice to shine in proper context. With so many bands, they can be more than the sum of their parts and I think this is the case here. I'm not sure why Wilton's presence is being understated either because that dude played a huge part in songs like Deliverance, Warning, Nightrider, I Dream in Infrared, Speak and Revolution Calling. If Wilton left in 83, we would've lost some absolute classics. This isn't some session musician, he was a crucial building block of the band's early material in a creative sense. If he left now, then I'm pretty sure the sound would drastically shift, because the chemistry would be heavily altered.

[EPICVIEW]

the band with Tate was way more popular and really none of the fan base had left. the band drew very well as always touring with Tate. The perceived "online" fans are not the fan base in reality  just a very small sample.  again the band ( kids jamming ) in 81 was The Mob, one could argue Tate was not a founding member of this teenage band called the Mob.  can you tell me who was the lead singer of the Mob was? can you tell me who the Founding Singer was of QR if not Tate?  again we are talking teenagers "jamming out"  nobody other than fun online talk doesn't think Tate is a founding member of QR

Oh yeah? Queensryche's 2013 self titled sold 13,659 in its first week in the US while Frequency Unknown sold 5,500 and Dedicated to Chaos sold 8,210. That disparity is indisputible. Fans had come back... and they weren't coming for Tate. Believe it or not, Condition Human even topped that at 14,000 in a declining album sales market. The Verdict sold 8,100 but that's pretty impressive considering the general trend of falling sales and a four year gap. Sure, album sales of American Soldier and everything prior make those numbers look a bit less impressive but 2009 was also before streaming services became more commonplace (Spotify was only one year into its existence after all). If we count streaming and YouTube views then it's an absolute landslide improvement for the Todd era, where those albums are more successful than anything since Empire. Man the Machine has 1.2m listens on Spotify. Even the most listened to song on Promised Land (Bridge at 641k) and Hear in the Now Frontier (Sign of the Times at 429k) doesn't quite measure up. That's not insigificant, even if we take into account new release biases. You would have to really do a lot of mental gymnastics to claim that the band didn't redeem themselves at least to some degree in the public eye in the last 8 years, given all this.

I agree this is a tad boring.. any metal label would have signed Tate and formed a band around him during the 80s once he was found. Im not sure about the others in QR.  were you a fan of Malmsteen in 82 or a fan of the Rising Force Band as a total unit?   a far more talented band in many ways to QR,  100% didnt even know a band was on stage with Malmsteen.

Okay, this is hilarious in hindsight, given that Yngwie has fallen deep and deeper into irrelevance after relying on his own vocals to drive the songs rather than the performances of world class singers. His sales figures rose exponentially in the 80s when he started focusing on more song-oriented tracks, which goes to prove the point. If Queensryche weren't as tight as they were and didn't drive the songs along as effectively as they did, it would've fallen into irrelevance fast. There are a ton of bands with incredible vocalists that don't get clout because their songs were mediocre. Geoff Tate is important... but he's not the only draw. Queen of the Reich would be a damned fine metal song with slicing riffs and a restless youthful energy even if it was sung by a James Hetfield or a Dave Mustaine, in my opinion. Plus, if Todd didn't do what he did well, then I highly doubt we'd see things like that stark sales boost.

I remember thinking Scott was good but even Chris was just a decent guitarist that night, later we learned he was very important to song writing, but live nobody saw anything but Tates talent. To me Tate is 50% of the QR defining sound if not more .  This is not  Rush IMO were each guy was paramount to the sound and irreplaceable and each was a huge piece of the sound, we now have a band of 2 of lesser ingredients and some are still saying its QR...I think that proves that all are replaceble  If Wilton leaves and a pro player comes in would the sound change?   is QR really Jackson?  can the whole band be replaced?  LOL

Somehow, I feel like the concept of a band having a particular chemistry between multiple members has slipped you by. Just because the musical content of some members is more behind the scenes, it doesn't make them any less crucial. QR has very classy layered guitar parts, a rock solid and tight rhythmic foundation, incredibly paced solos and often very slick production values that allow something like Geoff's voice to shine in proper context. With so many bands, they can be more than the sum of their parts and I think this is the case here. I'm not sure why Wilton's presence is being understated either because that dude played a huge part in songs like Deliverance, Warning, Nightrider, I Dream in Infrared, Speak and Revolution Calling. If Wilton left in 83, we would've lost some absolute classics. This isn't some session musician, he was a crucial building block of the band's early material in a creative sense. If he left now, then I'm pretty sure the sound would drastically shift, because the chemistry would be heavily altered.

enjoy Toddsryche,,,  have a nice weekend

[Enigmachine]

enjoy Toddsryche,,,  have a nice weekend

I will indeed enjoy Todd era Queensryche, in addition to the DeGarmo years.

[kirksnosehair]

There are 5 Queensryche albums I listen to and those are Mindcrime, Empire and the three they made with Todd.  Mindcrime will probably always be my favorite but I like the three albums with Todd more than Empire.


The only thing I wasn't crazy about on the last three albums was the hot mastering.  One of them is particularly loud, I can't remember which one.  But musically they're great and I think Todd's vocals are very solid.  I don't know if he's as good as Mindcrime-era Tate, that's a pretty high bar, but to me he sounds pretty damned close to classic Tate on a lot of the modern QR songs.

[Enigmachine]

The 2013 one is hella loud at a score of DR5, while the other two have DR7, so it's probably that one. It's a shame too, because I love the sleek and catchy modern metal songwriting on that one. Songs like Spore and Don't Look Back are pretty badass and I think that lineup suits that style so well.

[kirksnosehair]

Agreed.  I'm kind of hoping we get some remasters at a later date.  I'm not holding my breath though. 

[bosk1]

@EPICVIEW:  I'll give that a LOT of fans of the classic era of Queensryche came onboard because of Tate.  Nobody is disputing that.  Tate gets his due, and it is well-deserving.  There were a VERY small number of guys in metal that could be considered in his league, and that is an obvious draw.  Not to mention the fact that the primary thing the vast majority of people notice about ANY band right up front is the front man/woman.  When that person is classic-era Tate, of course that is going to be a huge draw for the lion's share of fans, especially the casual ones.  You can say the same about classic-era Journey.  In their original format, they were almost somewhat of a lower-tier "supergroup."  The musicianship was undeniable.  Yet, they didn't really turn the corner and start to have huge success until Perry joined.  And for the majority of fans that jumped onboard during the Perry years, I can almost guarantee that, despite the stellar musicianship, Perry was the initial draw.  Absent the odd case where a band is built around an instrumentalist that is a freakish prodigy (e.g., Yngwie), that front man/woman is what most people immediately notice and gravitate toward.  And, again, that is especially true of someone of such immense vocal talent as Tate.  You seem to think we are somehow slagging Tate or trying to diminish his talent or achievements.  I don't think any of us are.  He was my favorite singer for a VERY long time, and was VERY influential on me.  Again, he gets his due (at least, for what he did back then; present day is another story).

But all of that is also completely irrelevant to what we are talking about.¹  This discussion started because you were trying to compare Tate being signed in his 20s and LaTorre not being part of a major band until his brief stint with Crimson Glory and then his joining Queensryche, as if that somehow makes LaTorre inferior.  Whatever happened with Tate in the '80s has nothing to do with LaTorre's abilities.  Nothing.  Again, you are free to dislike him.  That is your prerogative.  But your argument about LaTorre somehow being inferior because he wasn't signed to a major band in his 20s is complete nonsense.


¹Enigma's points about QR's success also being due to the sum of the musicianship and the vocals is likewise irrelevant to that argument, which is why I bring it up in a footnote.  But that said, he is also largely correct and you are, mostly incorrect on your facts.  Again, I'll give you that Tate became the major draw for the band.  But QR were already moving toward a record deal, and the pieces were moving into place.  Tate was not.  That is fact.  Together, they closed the deal and were signed.  You may subjectively feel that Tate's vocals were more important.  That's fine.  You can feel that way.  But your feelings aren't fact.  And they aren't relevant to the argument you are trying to make.  Now, to your bigger point that (to put it in my own words), to you, current Queensryche doesn't feel like "Queensryche" to you because, to you, Tate is the primary draw and is an indispensible part of what made Queensryche Queensryche, that's valid.
 A lot of people feel that way, and that's cool.  Even though I think Tate getting the boot and being replaced by LaTorre is the best thing that happened to them in the 2000s, I still feel an element of that myself.  But even if I didn't, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.  But that said, for what feels like the millionth time, your opinion does is not objective truth, and your opinion does not take anything away from LaTorre or what the band has accomplished with him.

[KevShmev]

A great singer can be like a great actor: you still need to get good writing and often times need to be surrounded by a good cast to really show how good you can be. 

[bosk1]

I think my two examples in my last post illustrate that. 

In Journey, you had what musicians would have considered great writing.  And you had what anyone would consider great singing.  And they had a lot of success with that formula.  Suddenly, enter Cain and you have what the general music-consuming public considers good writing, and--BAM!  Superstardom.

With Queensryche, you have what musicians and some hard rock/metal fans would consider great writing, and you have increasing success.  You have the great singing.  Then they go for a more commercial, accessible approach, that, again, the general music-consuming public would consider good writing, and you get Empire, their most successful album in their careers. 

Yeah, there are a lot of other factors to consider.  And it is a general truism than a "rule," for lots of probably obvious reasons.  But I think great songwriting and musicianship paired with great singing brings success more often than just one or the other, notwithstanding plenty of examples of having just one or the other. 

[Enigmachine]

Great points all around there. The recipe for success, even cult-status, is generally a kind of aligning of the stars moment. This discussion has definitely reminded me how Queensryche, in their prime, represented that lightning in a bottle moment in many ways. A perfect balance between comercially accessible and deeper, more cerebral pursuits, impeccable musicianship all around, a hefty dose of spectacle, help from some of the most revered producers in the business and plenty of ambition, drive and professionalism. All that on top of writing some damned good songs and Tate having one of the best metal voices of the 80s. They really were such a well rounded band and I'd argue that many of those elements are still present in some form today too.