Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album

[jammindude]

The “accessibility” is precisely why I didn’t care for Empire (especially JCW and ARNWY) and the lack thereof is why I prefer PL.

I don’t know what it is. But songs that people point to as “accessible” almost always come across as extremely bland to me. Even Fates Warning’s singles have always struck me as their least interesting material. Eye to Eye can be fun in small doses, but I tire of it rather quickly.

Back to QR, even my favorite album RFO leads off with the weakest song...although it’s easier to get through because it’s such a contrast to the rest of the album. But over all, I Am I might be my favorite QR “single” of all time.

[Cintus Supremus]

Queensryche's Empire was basically Metallica's Black Album, as both albums were created with a great deal of accessibility and radio potential in mind.

[bosk1]

I actually think Promised Land has weathered the test of time much better than Empire

For my own tastes, I would say they both have weathered the test of time equally well, but for much different reasons.  I have a hard time believing they will put out anything that surpasses those two, and they are easily my 1a and 1b.  Both timeless classics.  And whichever one occupies the top spot in a given moment more a reflection on my mood than anything else. 

I remember what really threw me for a bit of a loop and turned me off a bit initially about PL was that it just didn't really showcase the heavy, uptempo rocking side of the band.  I remember listening at the time, and thinking 9:28 a.m. was a cool intro to set a dark, moody, vibe, I Am I was a really cool album opener that sounded unexpected in many ways, but still fitting, and then going right into the heavy of Damages, I felt like "OK!  Here we go.  Still mid-tempo, but pretty crunchy, and sounds like we are REALLY setting the stage for some dark, heavy stuff that is going to be completely facemelting.  Wait for it...WAIT FOR IT...AND..."  ...nothing of the sort. 

I didn't have an instantaneous "lightbulb" moment like Samsara.  For me, it was just a gradual thing in listening to the album and letting it slowly sink in.  It is definitely an album to be experienced rather that just thrown on for a casual listen.  There is a lot of experimentation, and a lot of layering, and texturing, much of which is subtle and not in your face.  There is a consistent theme of mood, but at the same time, there is a lot going on, and a lot of variety and texture.  And at the end of the day, that's what makes this album such a home run for me. 

[Peter Mc]

Queensryche's Empire was basically Metallica's Black Album, as both albums were created with a great deal of accessibility and radio potential in mind.

Even before Empire though their songs were melodic and catchy, just a bit more operatic and metal. Promised Land to me was then they moved away from that on some songs at least and made more difficult arty stuff. Don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t impenetrable or anything but lots of the songs did not have huge hooks or memorable choruses that you’d belt out a concert or singalong to on the radio.  That doesn’t necessarily mean one is better than the other but, with the odd exception, it is usually the difference between selling millions of records and not. 

I probably love about half of Promised Land, maybe two thirds on a good day, but there’s 4 or 5 songs that have just never done that much for me and, coming off one of the greatest 3 album runs in metal history, that makes it a bit of a step down for me. Nothing compared to what came after of course which was not so much a step down as them falling off a cliff!

[IDontNotDoThings]

Unless there's something I'm forgetting, Promised Land always struck me as Queensr˙che's only truly experimental album, & on top of me thinking it's an amazing album, I also appreciate it for that.

[jammindude]

I had never heard anything even remotely sound like RFO when it first came out. So I consider it to be very experimental for its time. That’s the reason I’ve always nicknamed PL “RFO with a budget.”

[IDontNotDoThings]

I had never heard anything even remotely sound like RFO when it first came out. So I consider it to be very experimental for its time. That’s the reason I’ve always nicknamed PL “RFO with a budget.”

Interesting. I'd never really thought the two to be connected, but then again I've listened to RFO much less, so idk.

[KevShmev]

I don't mind the accessibility of Empire. A good song is a good song, and sometimes those good songs can be instantly catchy, but of course a lot can be said about great songs that don't show you all of their cards on the first listen.

[jammindude]

I had never heard anything even remotely sound like RFO when it first came out. So I consider it to be very experimental for its time. That’s the reason I’ve always nicknamed PL “RFO with a budget.”

Interesting. I'd never really thought the two to be connected, but then again I've listened to RFO much less, so idk.

Not really “connected” but a similar attitude. Empire, for better or for worse, was a grab at fame. An attempt (a successful one) to gain a broader audience by losing some of the experimentation that started the buzz in the first place. Once they were “on top of the world” it seemed to give them a certain amount of freedom to do something weird again.

I really miss the formula. Chris was the melody, Whip was the muscle, Geoff was the madness. And it took all three to make it work. The newer stuff is actually very decent stuff, but I can’t deny that a certain weirdness factor is missing. Although Eye9 seemed to give a brief flash of the old trifecta.

[Samsara]

Once they were “on top of the world” it seemed to give them a certain amount of freedom to do something weird again.

I think of PL in a similar fashion. There are a LOT of comparisons between RFO and PL. The albums aren't related, but there are similarities between the two (which is natural). But as you said, because of the budget, and that it was eight years later, the production is just SO much better (not a slight to Neil Kernon, it was 1986 after all). PL, to me, has the best overall production and sound in QR's catalog.

I really miss the formula. Chris was the melody, Whip was the muscle, Geoff was the madness. And it took all three to make it work. The newer stuff is actually very decent stuff, but I can’t deny that a certain weirdness factor is missing. Although Eye9 seemed to give a brief flash of the old trifecta.

Agreed with all of it. I used to say Chris was the heart, Geoff was the soul, and Michael was the balls in their writing.

Newer QR is good, but it sounds different because all the core writers except Michael is gone, and their backbone, Rockenfield is gone too, which has altered significantly what they sound like. It's good, but it's not the same.

Eye9 from Condition Human - yeah, that one felt like old school Ryche.

[TAC]

But as you said, because of the budget, and that it was eight years later, the production is just SO much better (not a slight to Neil Kernon, it was 1986 after all). PL, to me, has the best overall production and sound in QR's catalog.

Warning: The following post is to not once again express my complete lack of understanding of what people see in Promised Land, as I don't want to just be negative.

BUT, my question is...

Can an album have such a good production that it actually enhances a less than stellar song? Can it make it feel fuller, deeper?
I feel like FII lives on as well as it has because of its pristine production.

[KevShmev]

Warning: The following post is to not once again express my complete lack of understanding of what people see in Promised Land, as I don't want to just be negative.

BUT, my question is...

Can an album have such a good production that it actually enhances a less than stellar song? Can it make it feel fuller, deeper?
I feel like FII lives on as well as it has because of its pristine production.

Absolutely.

On the flip side, poor or mediocre production can hinder what would have been a great song, like if certain great qualities about it are buried in the mix.

I should add as well that great production is not all about dynamics, which seems to be the common thought process.  FII doesn't have great dynamics, yet still sounds great.

[King Postwhore]

Vapor Trails is a good example.

[bl5150]

Promised Land does indeed sound amazing.  I often said that I wish RFO had come along a few years later and copped the production of Empire/PL .  Unfortunately for me the songs on PL didn't connect with me anything like RFO did , aside from One More Time which is an all time fave.  I wouldn't say I dislike PL but of the pre-HITNF albums it would be my lowest ranked.

[Setlist Scotty]

On the flip side, poor or mediocre production can hinder what would have been a great song, like if certain great qualities about it are buried in the mix.

Exactly - I think that's one of the big issues why WDaDU sees little love among DT fans (besides Charlie doing the vocals). Had the production been at the level of Awake, FII or SFaM, I'm sure it would've gotten more love. In fact, I think Tim is one of the several people here who don't like WDaDU, but do like WDaDR.

[jammindude]

And while we’re on that subject, The Warning suffers from the poor production as well. The songs themselves are excellent, but the guitars sound so distant and thin. The production really takes the umph out of it.

[KevShmev]

And while we’re on that subject, The Warning suffers from the poor production as well. The songs themselves are excellent, but the guitars sound so distant and thin. The production really takes the umph out of it.

Agreed.  I like that album, but I am more likely to reach for a song or two at a time from it, rather than ever listening to the whole thing, and the sound of it is a major reason.  I don't mind when bands have early releases that sound a bit raw (I greatly prefer The Who's rough and raw sound of the 60's over their polished sound of the 70's, for example), but The Warning just sounds like a band who didn't have the funds or knowledge yet to make a record that sounded good.  Rage for Order was a big leap in sound, while still retaining that bit of early edge and rawness.

On the flip side, poor or mediocre production can hinder what would have been a great song, like if certain great qualities about it are buried in the mix.

Exactly - I think that's one of the big issues why WDaDU sees little love among DT fans (besides Charlie doing the vocals). Had the production been at the level of Awake, FII or SFaM, I'm sure it would've gotten more love. In fact, I think Tim is one of the several people here who don't like WDaDU, but do like WDaDR.

Agreed.  Plus, I can't help but think that some newer DT songs would be more highly regarded if they had sounded better. 

[TAC]

On the flip side, poor or mediocre production can hinder what would have been a great song, like if certain great qualities about it are buried in the mix.

Exactly - I think that's one of the big issues why WDaDU sees little love among DT fans (besides Charlie doing the vocals). Had the production been at the level of Awake, FII or SFaM, I'm sure it would've gotten more love. In fact, I think Tim is one of the several people here who don't like WDaDU, but do like WDaDR.

Yeah, I have less of a problem with WDADU's production as I do with the vocals. And by that, I mean, I don't have a problem with the vocals, but I guess I prefer the same singer on my music. I don't make a Maiden playlist with three different singers. I make one or the other, and any song from the three eras are songs sung by Bruce.

[Lowdz]

And while we’re on that subject, The Warning suffers from the poor production as well. The songs themselves are excellent, but the guitars sound so distant and thin. The production really takes the umph out of it.

Agreed.  I like that album, but I am more likely to reach for a song or two at a time from it, rather than ever listening to the whole thing, and the sound of it is a major reason.  I don't mind when bands have early releases that sound a bit raw (I greatly prefer The Who's rough and raw sound of the 60's over their polished sound of the 70's, for example), but The Warning just sounds like a band who didn't have the funds or knowledge yet to make a record that sounded good.  Rage for Order was a big leap in sound, while still retaining that bit of early edge and rawness.

On the flip side, poor or mediocre production can hinder what would have been a great song, like if certain great qualities about it are buried in the mix.

Exactly - I think that's one of the big issues why WDaDU sees little love among DT fans (besides Charlie doing the vocals). Had the production been at the level of Awake, FII or SFaM, I'm sure it would've gotten more love. In fact, I think Tim is one of the several people here who don't like WDaDU, but do like WDaDR.

Agreed.  Plus, I can't help but think that some newer DT songs would be more highly regarded if they had sounded better.

Queensryche choosing a non-metal producer probably didn't help either.

As a fan at the time, lots of albums didn't sound that great back then so it was very rarely a deal breaker for me back then.

[Samsara]

And while we’re on that subject, The Warning suffers from the poor production as well. The songs themselves are excellent, but the guitars sound so distant and thin. The production really takes the umph out of it.

Absolutely. It is really a shame that they (the label) didn't take advantage of the remaster series in 2003 and gave The Warning a proper remix. Once I resequenced that record into its proper track order, I completely fell in love with that record to the point that its my #2 after Mindcrime. It still wouldn't surpass Mindcrime, but a remix so the guitars are more prominent, man...so much great stuff on that record.

re: WDADU vs. WDADRU - I'm one of those that enjoys the latter far more than the former. No disrespect to Charlie at all, but Dream Theater found their voice with James, and I much prefer WDADRU. And production wise, the fact an official bootleg sounds better than the actual record is just     I get it, the times (see The Warning from QR), but yeah, that record could be way better.

re: PL - the funny thing about that record is that while we give TAC a lot of shit for not liking it, I totally get why he doesn't, and his opinion is shared by a LOT of people. I don't happen to agree, but because it took me a bit to "get" PL and really vibe off it, I understand. That first week I had the record I was very much like - WTF?  Then it just sort of grabbed me, and I've been on the PL train ever since.

[ytserush]

I Am I was definitely the first single from PL, as I remember hearing it and thinking, "Who in the hell is this??"

Yep, the first single for PL was I Am I, followed by Bridge, and then Dis-con-nec-ted. Someone Else? was a promotional single (I have the CD).

 

Singles aside though, the album is simply not as accessible as Empire. There are not as many songs with huge melodic singalong choruses.  You have to applaud them maybe for going for something more ambitious and deep but it lacked that super melodic sound and immediacy of the albums that came before apart from a few songs. They could have released better singles and maybe sold more albums than they did but ultimately it was never going to match Empire as the songs aren’t as strong imo.

You have to remember too, that the band was on the verge of breaking up after Empire. I know they sugarcoat it and say how they took a long break, etc., but the truth of the matter is, Tate got divorced and taken to the cleaners and was depressed, Rockenfield got divorced, Wilton had his issues, etc. Chris pretty much pulled everyone together and got it everyone out to do the record. I think that vibe of darkness and disillusionment is what makes the album special.

I personally think the songs are as strong, if not stronger than Empire, but as you said -- they aren't nearly as accessible. And I think that was actually the point. Sure, they have Bridge on there as a sort of acoustic ballad in the vein of Silent Lucidity, but its way darker. I very much respect Queensryche for deciding that they were just going to do what they felt, as opposed to what was expected. I actually think Promised Land has weathered the test of time much better than Empire (with the exception of a few songs like Anybody Listening, the title track, Best I Can, and Della Brown). Debatable for sure, but sitting here thinking about it right this second, that's what I feel.

Promised Land was not for everyone, much in the same way A Pleasant Shade of Gray from Fates Warning wasn't for everyone either. It took me a long time to get into the latter, and its still not as good (to me) as most Fates fans rate it. So I totally understand the perspective of those like you and TAC who are not very fond of Promised Land.

Totally agree about Promised Land. Maybe Empire and Anybody Listening are even in the same league.  Can't even remember the last time I listened to Empire.

Promised Land was such a slow burn album for me. It didn't help that Awake came out at the same time and Promised Land kind of got left on the back burner for about 6 months.

[ytserush]

Queensryche's Empire was basically Metallica's Black Album, as both albums were created with a great deal of accessibility and radio potential in mind.

I'm grateful for Empire because it gave the band its headlining gig and the chance to play all of Operation Mindcrime live. If that's not worth the price of admission, I don't know what is. Promised Land is still my favorite tour, but I suppose the Empire tour would be a distant second.

[ytserush]

And while we’re on that subject, The Warning suffers from the poor production as well. The songs themselves are excellent, but the guitars sound so distant and thin. The production really takes the umph out of it.

Even Mindcrime with Peter Collins isn't all that great in the production department.  It's always sounded dated and thin to me. Prefer LIVECrime much more.

[ytserush]

And while we’re on that subject, The Warning suffers from the poor production as well. The songs themselves are excellent, but the guitars sound so distant and thin. The production really takes the umph out of it.

Absolutely. It is really a shame that they (the label) didn't take advantage of the remaster series in 2003 and gave The Warning a proper remix. Once I resequenced that record into its proper track order, I completely fell in love with that record to the point that its my #2 after Mindcrime. It still wouldn't surpass Mindcrime, but a remix so the guitars are more prominent, man...so much great stuff on that record.

re: WDADU vs. WDADRU - I'm one of those that enjoys the latter far more than the former. No disrespect to Charlie at all, but Dream Theater found their voice with James, and I much prefer WDADRU. And production wise, the fact an official bootleg sounds better than the actual record is just     I get it, the times (see The Warning from QR), but yeah, that record could be way better.

re: PL - the funny thing about that record is that while we give TAC a lot of shit for not liking it, I totally get why he doesn't, and his opinion is shared by a LOT of people. I don't happen to agree, but because it took me a bit to "get" PL and really vibe off it, I understand. That first week I had the record I was very much like - WTF?  Then it just sort of grabbed me, and I've been on the PL train ever since.

If you're not into the lyrics, it probably doesn't help much. For the most part, I'm a fan of the lyrics. (At least through Hear In The Now Frontier anyway.)

[Samsara]

PL's lyrics were, at least to me, a departure for QR. Their songs were always generally fictional (with obvious exceptions like London, etc.), or social commentary, or if introspective, more about a topic. In retrospect, I should have seen that with songs such Hand on Heart, Last Time in Paris, and One and Only, that they were trending that direction lyrically. And when PL hit, man, it was just really dark and deep lyrically. To this day, I'm surprised Geoff and Chris shared so much. PL is a pretty special record, whether a person likes it or not.

[ytserush]

PL's lyrics were, at least to me, a departure for QR. Their songs were always generally fictional (with obvious exceptions like London, etc.), or social commentary, or if introspective, more about a topic. In retrospect, I should have seen that with songs such Hand on Heart, Last Time in Paris, and One and Only, that they were trending that direction lyrically. And when PL hit, man, it was just really dark and deep lyrically. To this day, I'm surprised Geoff and Chris shared so much. PL is a pretty special record, whether a person likes it or not.

That's a major reason I love it so much and probably consider it my favorite Queensryche album just above LIVECrime and Rage.

[Samsara]

That's a major reason I love it so much and probably consider it my favorite Queensryche album just above LIVECrime and Rage.

Funny you mention LIVEcrime. I was just thinking this weekend how while Operation: Mindcrime is bar none, my favorite album of all time, I sort of prefer Operation: LIVEcrime because of the energy factor, and the Anarchy-X reprise (Anarchy-Xtra) as the ending.

[Architeuthis]

I've been on a Queensryche kick lately and I will proudly say that their latest album "The Verdict" has become my second favorite album in their whole catalogue,  Operation Mindcrime being my first.  It doesn't even bother me that they have a different singer, the songs are strong and Todd can really belt it.
 I really like how The Verdict comes in with a bang and keeps that momentum with the next few songs.  My only minor drawback is that the album starts to lose its steam towards the end, but the songs are still good.

[Setzer]

That's a major reason I love it so much and probably consider it my favorite Queensryche album just above LIVECrime and Rage.

Funny you mention LIVEcrime. I was just thinking this weekend how while Operation: Mindcrime is bar none, my favorite album of all time, I sort of prefer Operation: LIVEcrime because of the energy factor, and the Anarchy-X reprise (Anarchy-Xtra) as the ending.

Ever noticed that the audio mix is reversed? Chris is in the left channel, and Michael in the right. I watched it recently and it started annoying me 

[Kwyjibo]

I've been on a Queensryche kick lately and I will proudly say that their latest album "The Verdict" has become my second favorite album in their whole catalogue,  Operation Mindcrime being my first.  It doesn't even bother me that they have a different singer, the songs are strong and Todd can really belt it.
 I really like how The Verdict comes in with a bang and keeps that momentum with the next few songs.  My only minor drawback is that the album starts to lose its steam towards the end, but the songs are still good.

The Verdict has really grown for me. I wouldn't rank it at second best, but probably in a top 5.

[TAC]

It's an excellent album.

[bosk1]

That's a major reason I love it so much and probably consider it my favorite Queensryche album just above LIVECrime and Rage.

Funny you mention LIVEcrime. I was just thinking this weekend how while Operation: Mindcrime is bar none, my favorite album of all time, I sort of prefer Operation: LIVEcrime because of the energy factor, and the Anarchy-X reprise (Anarchy-Xtra) as the ending.

Ever noticed that the audio mix is reversed? Chris is in the left channel, and Michael in the right. I watched it recently and it started annoying me 

Interesting.  I never picked up on that.

Regarding Verdict, I'll have to revisit it.  I liked it, but to me, it didn't reach the stellar heights of its predecessors.  To me, the s/t with Todd was excellent, and its only "flaw" was that some songs felt a bit underdeveloped and there was a bit of "we just haven't quite gelled as a writing team yet, but just wait" to it.  I felt like Condition Human really ramped things up and, other than the title track, they knocked it out of the park.  Verdict just didn't resonate with me nearly as much.

[Architeuthis]

I haven't heard Condition Human yet,  maybe that will he my next purchase.   Yeah Bosk I highly recommend revisiting The Verdict and give it a couple spins.  I liked it the first time, but it really sank in after a few listens on a nice stereo.. 

[wolfking]

The Verdict was a real grower for me too.

[Samsara]

I felt The Verdict was the current Queensryche finally finding their own identity. On the first two albums without Tate, particularly in retrospect, it sounds like they are trying to fit into the niche that Queensryche was in the late-80s and early-90s with a modern twist. On The Verdict, it sounds like they are just being who they are, at the moment.

All of those records have their own appeal to them, but The Verdict I think best captures their new chemistry.

Ever noticed that the audio mix is reversed? Chris is in the left channel, and Michael in the right. I watched it recently and it started annoying me 

No, I never noticed. I'll go back and check it out. I guess at least at home, I could flip-flop the left and right speakers to make it sound right.