MP's Shattered Fortress Tour

[bosk1]

I wouldn't read too much into any "frustration" with TSOAD.  The only "frustrations" I am aware of are the following, both of which are understandable from his perspective:

(1) During the writing, there was "frustration" or "tension" because of Neal insisting on it being a double album, and Mike initially resisting that very hard because of DT doing a double concept album.  Mike no doubt had a visceral reaction to the anticipated fan reaction from the DT side and the inevitable comparisons.  But that resolved itself (at least, as far as we know).

(2) Afterward, I seem to recall a bit of "frustration" that the fan response wasn't more than the normal positive reaction to Neal's records.  I think he just felt so emotionally invested in this one and felt so strongly about it being "the album of their careers" that he was disappointed that there wasn't more of a universal outpouring from the fans.  In other words, I think he was disappointed that the fans didn't necessarily feel the way he did about the album and express that in terms of album sales and concert attendance.  Not that either were bad.  But I think he was just expecting more.

As far as I'm aware, that's it.  And neither are really a big deal.

[goo-goo]

I wouldn't read too much into any "frustration" with TSOAD.  The only "frustrations" I am aware of are the following, both of which are understandable from his perspective:

(1) During the writing, there was "frustration" or "tension" because of Neal insisting on it being a double album, and Mike initially resisting that very hard because of DT doing a double concept album.  Mike no doubt had a visceral reaction to the anticipated fan reaction from the DT side and the inevitable comparisons.  But that resolved itself (at least, as far as we know).

The Making of DVD really goes into detail on this. Very interesting takes by both Neal and MP. Both of them were really affected by this discussion. It was their first "big" fight.

[Setlist Scotty]

I wouldn't read too much into any "frustration" with TSOAD.  The only "frustrations" I am aware of are the following, both of which are understandable from his perspective:

(1) During the writing, there was "frustration" or "tension" because of Neal insisting on it being a double album, and Mike initially resisting that very hard because of DT doing a double concept album.  Mike no doubt had a visceral reaction to the anticipated fan reaction from the DT side and the inevitable comparisons.  But that resolved itself (at least, as far as we know).

(2) Afterward, I seem to recall a bit of "frustration" that the fan response wasn't more than the normal positive reaction to Neal's records.  I think he just felt so emotionally invested in this one and felt so strongly about it being "the album of their careers" that he was disappointed that there wasn't more of a universal outpouring from the fans.  In other words, I think he was disappointed that the fans didn't necessarily feel the way he did about the album and express that in terms of album sales and concert attendance.  Not that either were bad.  But I think he was just expecting more.

As far as I'm aware, that's it.  And neither are really a big deal.

Exactly. Skeever, the post that you're referring to has nothing to do with the songwriting or collaboration. As Bosk said, that frustration was purely due to the lack of fan reaction, nothing more.

And regarding the debate between him and Neal, I'm aware of that too, but as Bosk said, it had more to do with the inevitable comparisons that would come up since DT had just released The Astonishing rather than anything else. Had they been working on TSoaD back in 2014 instead of 2016, you can be sure that there wouldn't have been any argument between them.

[gzarruk]

Yeah, Mike over-hyped TSOAD to the point of calling it the album of their careers, but, even though it is really good, it ended up being just a longer version of a regular NM album. Same sound, same style and everything.

Not trying to start a comparison war here, but TA had much more experimentation and different/new sounding elements for DT than TSOAD had for Neal Morse or NMB in general.

[Skeever]

Exactly. Skeever, the post that you're referring to has nothing to do with the songwriting or collaboration. As Bosk said, that frustration was purely due to the lack of fan reaction, nothing more.

I never said the frustration had to do with songwriting or collaboration.

I said that maybe the fan response frustrated Mike more because he was more of a collaborator on this one. He seems to have wanted fans to see TSOAD as more than just another Neal album, and according to the numbers, that wasn't the case.

[bosk1]

I didn't get that at all, for two reasons.  I don't think he was "more of a collaborator" on this one than on others.  And I also never got that he was all that frustrated--just a bit disappointed, for the reason I mentioned.

[Setlist Scotty]

I never said the frustration had to do with songwriting or collaboration.

My bad. Since the thread was talking about collaboration, I completely missed the words "the sales of" in your post. Nevermind. 
 
 

I didn't get that at all, for two reasons.  I don't think he was "more of a collaborator" on this one than on others.  And I also never got that he was all that frustrated--just a bit disappointed, for the reason I mentioned.

I agree that he is disappointed, but not so sure about him being more of a collaborator on this one than on previous NM albums. It is now the "Neal Morse Band" instead of just "Neal Morse" which suggests that the rest of the guys in the band are much more a part of the writing process then before.

[Skeever]

Haha, no problem 

And yes, I thought the whole point of the change from "Neal Morse" to "Neal Morse Band" was to try and formalize the greater level of contribution from the rest of the guys.

[bosk1]

And yes, I thought the whole point of the change from "Neal Morse" to "Neal Morse Band" was to try and formalize the greater level of contribution from the rest of the guys.

I think that is definitely true for Eric and Bill (and, to a lesser extent, Randy perhaps?).  I didn't bet the sense that Mike was necessarily contributing more.  But I could be mistaken.

[rumborak]

MP's comment on his own forum actually somewhat surprised me. He of all musicians that I know, as a music lover, should know that you can't "plan" acceptance of an album. You throw it out there, and it either sticks or not. There was a bit of a " 'fans' " (you know, when MP quotes the word to indicate the "lesser fans") undertone to it I feel.

[kaos2900]

I can't imagine that Christian Prog Rock is in high demand. I'm assuming MP understands that after almost 20 years with Neal.

That being said, I think the MP's best work has been with Neal Morse and I hope he continues to collaborate with him.

[Fritzinger]

I don't know how Mike can expect an album that says "The Neal Morse Band" to sell better than an album that says "Neal Morse".

Also, most of TA's stuff is written by Morse. I think, the musicians in FC have a little more input but most of it still comes from Neal.
I guess everything that has Neal involved will always sound like Neal.

[Samsara]

I don't know how Mike can expect an album that says "The Neal Morse Band" to sell better than an album that says "Neal Morse".

Also, most of TA's stuff is written by Morse. I think, the musicians in FC have a little more input but most of it still comes from Neal.
I guess everything that has Neal involved will always sound like Neal.

I don't follow it closely enough to know who writes who in the Neal Morse-related stuff, but always assumed it was Neal, and not surprisingly, much of it sounds similar.

This is why I really do think Eric Gillette (is that is name) probably is the guitarist for MP's new prog metal group. MP likely wouldn;t be calling him "baby JP" (or whatever nickname he gave him) had he not been. It's all a setup for the project.

Can Eric write? I know nothing about him, except for Shattered Fortress (where he played like a monster, so he can certainly play).

[bosk1]

I don't know how Mike can expect an album that says "The Neal Morse Band" to sell better than an album that says "Neal Morse".

Also, most of TA's stuff is written by Morse. I think, the musicians in FC have a little more input but most of it still comes from Neal.
I guess everything that has Neal involved will always sound like Neal.

I don't follow it closely enough to know who writes who in the Neal Morse-related stuff, but always assumed it was Neal, and not surprisingly, much of it sounds similar.

Unfortunately, that is one of those Internet myths that has perpetuated itself.  Along the lines of, "Mike Pornoy did EVERYTHING in DT.  He wrote the songs, interacted with the fans, called the shots--EVERYTHING!  That's why they were so metal."  Etc.  Yeah, Neal has a distinct style and sound that makes anything he plays on pretty recognizable.  And he has been an active writer in pretty much every project he has been involved in.  But in Transatlantic, for example, he did NOT dominate the vast majority of the writing as the poster you quoted erroneously state.  That's been proven elsewhere.  And I know you don't follow his projects, so that's why I am clarifying.

This is why I really do think Eric Gillette (is that is name) probably is the guitarist for MP's new prog metal group. MP likely wouldn;t be calling him "baby JP" (or whatever nickname he gave him) had he not been. It's all a setup for the project.

It could be.  But, honestly, whether he is or isn't part of the project, I think Mike's comments were simply yet one of many, many examples of him just saying whatever comes to his mind without any filter whatsoever or any thought to how it will be perceived.  I don't think it was necessarily a setup for the project at all.  But I could be wrong.

Can Eric write? I know nothing about him, except for Shattered Fortress (where he played like a monster, so he can certainly play).

He wrote and co-wrote a few things on Neal's last album, and I really like his contributions there.  I have seen it said that his solo album is heavier (and is pretty good), but I haven't heard it.

[goo-goo]

He wrote and co-wrote a few things on Neal's last album, and I really like his contributions there.  I have seen it said that his solo album is heavier (and is pretty good), but I haven't heard it.

Yes, his latest solo album is very heavy and the music itself is pretty good. I do think his weakest point is the singing on his album. Aside that, the music and songwriting are pretty top notch.

[Kotowboy]

(1) During the writing, there was "frustration" or "tension" because of Neal insisting on it being a double album, and Mike initially resisting that very hard because of DT doing a double concept album.  Mike no doubt had a visceral reaction to the anticipated fan reaction from the DT side and the inevitable comparisons.  But that resolved itself (at least, as far as we know).

As far as I'm aware, that's it.  And neither are really a big deal.

I have seen precisely 0 posts anywhere comparing the two or " MP is copying DT " type posts.

[bosk1]

Oh, good.  I'm sure Mike Portnoy will be relieved that you didn't see them. 

[Adami]

 

[The Letter M]

(1) During the writing, there was "frustration" or "tension" because of Neal insisting on it being a double album, and Mike initially resisting that very hard because of DT doing a double concept album.  Mike no doubt had a visceral reaction to the anticipated fan reaction from the DT side and the inevitable comparisons.  But that resolved itself (at least, as far as we know).

As far as I'm aware, that's it.  And neither are really a big deal.

I have seen precisely 0 posts anywhere comparing the two or " MP is copying DT " type posts.

It's the whole proximity-in-time deal, when two things that can be viewed as having SOME connection come out in a relatively short time-span, be it using similar ideas or concepts, or just having a tangential connection between people involved. It's like when Deep Impact and Armageddon came out, or A Bug's Life and Ants, things like that. I think Mike was just worried about the POTENTIAL comparisons fans would make if Neal released a double-album concept within a year of Dream Theater, and because they were Mike's former band and all, that perhaps fans would think Mike had urged Neal to do a double "because Dream Theater just did one". To be honest, when I first heard TSOAD was going to be a concept album, and a double at that, I had some worries that that was the case, but I'm glad to hear that Mike was pretty reluctant to make it a double, and I don't blame him. It was a bit unreal to see their tension on the making of DVD as their work has never had any sort of tension, through so many albums and different bands, but I guess this one time, it just really came to a breaking point for Mike and he just had to let it go.

Well, now that MP is doing a prog metal band with Derek Sherinian, I'm sure some comparisons will be made...I just hope his album and song titles don't lend themselves to comparisons. (Please don't call the first album When Mike And Derek Unite)

-Marc.

[Kotowboy]

Oh, good.  I'm sure Mike Portnoy will be relieved that you didn't see them.

Dunno what your point is... I was expecting a lot of backlash for MP doing a double concept but i've not seen any.

[Skeever]

(1) During the writing, there was "frustration" or "tension" because of Neal insisting on it being a double album, and Mike initially resisting that very hard because of DT doing a double concept album.  Mike no doubt had a visceral reaction to the anticipated fan reaction from the DT side and the inevitable comparisons.  But that resolved itself (at least, as far as we know).

As far as I'm aware, that's it.  And neither are really a big deal.

I have seen precisely 0 posts anywhere comparing the two or " MP is copying DT " type posts.

Sadly, I think it goes back to the point (and MP's point) that DT fans and the chunk-of-MP's-greater-fanbase-who-don't-usually-check-out-Neal decided not to check out TSOAD. For the most part, the album flew under the radar for non-Neal fans. Thus, not much talk.

Now, say this new supergroup had already been formed, and they decided to do a double album with the world "Dream" in the title... that would have definitely turned some DT fan heads.
But that's all just speculation. 

[MinistroRaven]

Something I haven't seen mentioned here is that TSOAD is the best selling album by NM ever!!! And show attendance has been really great more SOLD OUT shows than ever for a NM tour , plus, touring cycle is the biggest NM has ever done.

[JayOctavarium]

I've listened to the new Neal Morse Band album a few times.. It's really good but, as someone who really isn't religious, I cant really get too too into it. Especially since I am big on lyrics and what not. Is it the album of their careers? Nah. I still take Neal era Spock's Beard, TA, FC and of course Dream Theater of Neal Morse / Neal Morse Band material.

[rumborak]

Sadly, I think it goes back to the point (and MP's point) that DT fans and the chunk-of-MP's-greater-fanbase-who-don't-usually-check-out-Neal decided not to check out TSOAD. For the most part, the album flew under the radar for non-Neal fans. Thus, not much talk.

As someone else said, if they really intended to reach outside the usual circles, naming it "The Neal Morse Band" was a huge shot in the foot.

[KevShmev]

Something I haven't seen mentioned here is that TSOAD is the best selling album by NM ever!!! And show attendance has been really great more SOLD OUT shows than ever for a NM tour , plus, touring cycle is the biggest NM has ever done.

As much I love Neal Morse's music, and the new album, and the show I saw six weeks ago, selling out shows when you are playing to venues where the capacity is only a couple hundred really isn't much to brag about.

[MinistroRaven]

Something I haven't seen mentioned here is that TSOAD is the best selling album by NM ever!!! And show attendance has been really great more SOLD OUT shows than ever for a NM tour , plus, touring cycle is the biggest NM has ever done.

As much I love Neal Morse's music, and the new album, and the show I saw six weeks ago, selling out shows when you are playing to venues where the capacity is only a couple hundred really isn't much to brag about.

The same venues he has played before and never has sold out, doing it this time, with his best aelling album EVER, yes, to me, it is something to brag about

[Kwyjibo]

Do you have any numbers on how many records TSoaD has sold? I'm curious what best selling for an artist like Neal Morse means.

[MinistroRaven]

Do you have any numbers on how many records TSoaD has sold? I'm curious what best selling for an artist like Neal Morse means.

I don't have the numbers but on his latest IC letter he said it was his best selling album at Radiant Records, I guess he is. It counting Amazon and the other outlets. I will have to ask him now. If he replies I will let you know.

[Skeever]

Depending on how sales are counted, sometimes (and according to RIAA certification), each double album sale counts as "2". Radiant is Neal's own fiefdom, so I'm sure he can count the sales however he wants.

[gzarruk]

Speaking of who might be involved in MP's project, did anyone else see this?

https://twitter.com/Haken_Official/status/838170562484703234

Not that we know (almost certain) that Derek is involved, that would rule Diego out. My bet would be either Conner or Ross, but I guess Conner has more chances, since he isn't in any other side projects, or at least not that I can remember.

[devieira73]

Conner is american, right? He still lives in USA?

[devieira73]

By the way, Thomas MacLean would be awesome too

[gzarruk]

Conner is american, right? He still lives in USA?

He still lives in the USA, I think.

[ariich]

Yeah Conner is based in the States, so definite potential candidate.

[Elite]

Okay, here's a guess:
Portnoy
Sherinian
Connor Green on bass (Haken)
Some vocalist
Eric Gillette

I SAID IT FIRST

(Sooner or later that might just as well turn out wrong of course)