Author Topic: For those who are interested in evolution.  (Read 14200 times)

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Online Adami

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2010, 11:30:51 AM »
Rudess, I think your problem is pretty much solely with me. So I'll see if I can help clear anything up.

1. Just to get it out of the way, I never insulted you or personally attacked you.
2. You can't come into a thread, make very odd claims and back it up ONLY with "I read it in a book"
3. If you do those things, you can't expect any rational responses, because you never made a rational claim.


I understand you found a book that introduced you to a new idea that you really became attached to. However, there are thousands of books that introduce people to thousands of ideas that are simply not scientifically founded. Many of these books even have doctors of various kinds writing them. It's just how todays world works. So if you found a personal truth, that 95% of all back pain and chronic pain is psychological, awesome. I hope that works well for you. But none of us agree with that. And we don't have any desire to track down and read a book to convince us otherwise. And you haven't done anything else to support your claims. So simple "no's" are the best response you can get to simple "What I am saying is true". If I found a book written by a doctor, or several, that claimed that crystals can heal ALL physical ailments, I doubt anyone would agree with me. And I doubt anyone would be provided scientific claim to the contrary, because it's just not worth it.

Hope that cleared some stuff up. I'm sorry if you felt insulted. However you did insult us by implying that none of us are intelligent or mature.
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Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2010, 11:44:54 AM »
Rudess, I think your problem is pretty much solely with me. So I'll see if I can help clear anything up.

1. Just to get it out of the way, I never insulted you or personally attacked you.

That's correct. But other people did. My problem is most definitely not solely with you.

2. You can't come into a thread, make very odd claims and back it up ONLY with "I read it in a book"
3. If you do those things, you can't expect any rational responses, because you never made a rational claim.

And you haven't done anything else to support your claims. So simple "no's" are the best response you can get to simple "What I am saying is true". If I found a book written by a doctor, or several, that claimed that crystals can heal ALL physical ailments, I doubt anyone would agree with me. And I doubt anyone would be provided scientific claim to the contrary, because it's just not worth it.

I gave solid arguments. For example, you said

"chronic muscle caused back pain isn't any more or less in your head than any other kind of pain." to which I replied "chronic muscle caused back pain doesn't exist. Muscles regenerate quite fast, with a maximum of 2 months for a complete tear. So chronic muscle caused back pain is per definition TMS: caused by the mind repressing emotions."

Your reply to that was "No." I mean, seriously, I don't see how that wasn't properly argumented on my end. After that the shitstorm started and I was too busy defending myself to give any proper arguments.

Hope that cleared some stuff up. I'm sorry if you felt insulted. However you did insult us by implying that none of us are intelligent or mature.

As I've said numerous times before in this thread, it's not about me being right or me being insulted. It's not just about this thread. Vivace describes my problem exactly in the thread I posted on the previous page. But I will quote him again:

"Sorry folks, but there are many on this sub-forum I am beginning to find hostile and simply put it's very hard to have a "civilized" discussion of any amount on this sub-forum. Have fun. Go ahead and assume it's because no one is agreeing with me."

Online Adami

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2010, 11:48:01 AM »
This is civilized enough. You can't just say things. You have to back them up.

So "Chronic muscle caused back pain doesn't exist. Muscles regenerate quite fast, with a maximum of 2 months for a complete tear. So chronic muscle caused back pain is per definition TMS: caused by mind repressing emotions" isn't a statement you can just state. Nor is "The human leg consists of billions of angelic fibers of frosted flake related material".

You have to back that stuff up. And your conclusions have to make sense. Jumping from "muscles heal" to "All muscle pain is psychological" is a HUGE unscientific leap. You can't just say those things and expect us to take you seriously.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2010, 11:49:30 AM »
it is still time to move on....or else I will get to lose my "lock" virginity

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2010, 11:50:09 AM »
if you would like i can make things easier for you by banning you from this board

:

When this is done I won't post at P/R anymore, except maybe for the occasional buddhism/meditation-related threads where I think I can provide insight.

BTW: Is that a threat? If it is, it would be a bit weird regarding I was the one being called an idiot and all that. Banning usually works the other way around.

It was not meant to be a threat. You said yourself: "As I've said before, I'm not going to post here in P/R anymore. I'd rather post in a place where intelligent, mature discussion is possible. This stuff is just a waste of time on my end."

If it's a waste of your time, don't post here. Icould make that easier by banning you from P/R, but I don't particularly want to. However, complaining about it in this thread is not productive to this thread. Next time, I suggest you take it elsewhere

Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2010, 11:57:52 AM »
This is civilized enough. You can't just say things. You have to back them up.

So "Chronic muscle caused back pain doesn't exist. Muscles regenerate quite fast, with a maximum of 2 months for a complete tear. So chronic muscle caused back pain is per definition TMS: caused by mind repressing emotions" isn't a statement you can just state. Nor is "The human leg consists of billions of angelic fibers of frosted flake related material".

You have to back that stuff up. And your conclusions have to make sense. Jumping from "muscles heal" to "All muscle pain is psychological" is a HUGE unscientific leap. You can't just say those things and expect us to take you seriously.

I didn't say "All muscle pain is psychological". I said all CHRONIC muscle pain is psychological. That's a very important difference. Because like I said, "Muscles regenerate quite fast, with a maximum of 2 months for a complete tear." Therefore it's impossible for chronic muscle pain to exist, since muscles can completely regenerate in a short amount of time.

I would assume that people know muscles regenerate fast because everyone has had the experience of aching muscles after exercise and everyone knows that it disappears rather quickly.

it is still time to move on....or else I will get to lose my "lock" virginity

This is my last response.

Offline j

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2010, 12:09:01 PM »
Chronic muscle pain can be caused by a variety of sources.  It could be nerve damage, it could be pathogenic, it could be tissue damage, etc.  It very well could be psychosomatic, but I'm not sure what would lead one to attribute 95% of such pain to psychosomatic causes.

-J

EDIT: We are still allowed to discuss this, right?  The "move on" was with regard to arguing about personal attacks and stuff?

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2010, 12:10:53 PM »
EDIT: We are still allowed to discuss this, right?  The "move on" was with regard to arguing about personal attacks and stuff?

correct

Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2010, 12:18:58 PM »
EDIT: We are still allowed to discuss this, right?  The "move on" was with regard to arguing about personal attacks and stuff?

correct

Ah, okay. I thought we had to stop the entire discussion.

Chronic muscle pain can be caused by a variety of sources.  It could be nerve damage, it could be pathogenic, it could be tissue damage, etc.  It very well could be psychosomatic, but I'm not sure what would lead one to attribute 95% of such pain to psychosomatic causes.

-J

I'll reply to this tomorrow, have to go now.

Online Adami

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2010, 12:21:01 PM »
Also, when I said I had a slipped disk in my back, I didn't say it was a muscle problem. The disk is slipped and is crushing nerves. I can't see how that's ANYTHING other than physical. The spinal chord has....quite a few nerves on it. Those cause pain.
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Offline Vivace

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2010, 02:30:17 PM »
Okay, so I'm crazy and a crackpot (or "a crazy idiot"). I thought this forum was mature enough to avoid personal attacks. And I thought I read in the rules that name-calling wasn't allowed here. Well, it seems I was wrong on both counts. Bye bye.
Dude, this is the internet. There is no such fucking thing as maturity, period.

Quoted for fucking truth.  :biggrin:
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Offline Vivace

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2010, 02:40:44 PM »
No one is personally attacking you.  Greater than 95% of all chronic internet personal attacks are psychosomatic.
 
But seriously, no need to get upset and (repeatedly) threaten to leave. If you really feel strongly about your position, then start a thread and defend it.  Dont take it personal if people dont agree with you, as it may very well be that your position has as much scientific validity as a Power Balance Bracelet.

No one wants to see you leave, and no harm was intended.

Oh come on. I don't care whether or not people agree with me. I do care when people are seemingly unable to respond in an intelligible, argumented way to a post that has taken me time to write. Tell me why I should take time to write a properly argumented post just to have people reply to them with a simple "No.", laugh me in the face and go into personal attacks.

See, you didn't even read my post. This is exactly what I meant.

Also: Sure I could start my own thread, but a different thread with the same people is still the same thread.

Seriously, dude? You come in, relegating 95% of people's pain to mere "it's all in your head" and then expect everybody to nod and say "oooh, what a bold and clearly possible claim!" ?

rumborak


I never said 95% of people's pain. Only back pain and chronic infection-related illnesses. Again: I don't care if anyone agrees with me. And no, I didn't expect people to say  "oooh, what a bold and clearly possible claim!". But I didn't expect the shitstorm that ensued.

But it's not just about this thread. I would like all of you to take look at Vivace's thread: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=17445.0

"Sorry folks, but there are many on this sub-forum I am beginning to find hostile and simply put it's very hard to have a "civilized" discussion of any amount on this sub-forum. Have fun. Go ahead and assume it's because no one is agreeing with me."

Hmmmm, does that sound like anything I just said? Sure seems like it.

Whoa Whoa Whoa! Please don't bring this thread up. I'm 100% embarassed by it and wish it would go away. Often times you have to pick your battles when it comes to the internet. Whenever I find myself "wasting my time" on the internet, I stop posting to that particular thread and move on. It's frustrating, oh yes, but it happens and what's the big deal? Let the conversation continue with those who want to still continue it. What I see here is you stating somethign, you presented a link, people balked and you got pissed. This is EXACTLY why I started the thread you mentioned above without even bothering to realize I posted it "when I was pissed off". After I realized, it was a thread with no point, no foundation, no real cause except I took a few things thrown at me personally (I think in a way I deserved it but I ain't to keen on going there again) and bang, out comes my frustration into a thread. Yes, this forum is filled with people who are quite "opinionated". You get that in just about every forum. I have never been to a forum where people were not "opinionated". Hell, I'm opininated. Maybe that's why I'm drawn to stuff like this. I dunno. just leave that thread out of it. Shit, I now I wish it were deleted.

There are times I think when some people get a little "emotional" but I think it goes both ways (I know it goes both ways). Best advice I can give and I have done this numerous times. Take a break from the forum or from the sub-forum. That's what I SHOULD have done before posting that thread.
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Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2010, 03:10:02 AM »
TMS stands for tension myositis syndrome. In TMS the mind causes physical complaints, usually in the form of pain. TMS has been investigated in depth by John Sarno (among others) who wrote several books on the subject.

Let's talk about the psychological background first. Why would the mind cause physical pain? As you probably know, humans have a conscious self and a subconscious self. The subconscious self is contained in the most primitive part of the brain. This part of the brain is responsible for primitive emotions like anger, rage, sadness etc. Each time a human experiences one of these emotions there are 2 options: to experience the emotion or to suppress it. People in western society like to suppress emotions. "Tough it out." "Be a man about it" When emotions are suppressed they are contained in the subconscious mind where they are stored in an emotional "reservoir". This reservoir is not endless, it fills up over time. When it is filled up, the emotions need to be expressed in one way or another. The things I just discussed are all basic psychology, and the ideas are generally accepted by psychologists. The brain's decision maker, the ego, determines what happens next. The emotion stored in the subconscious are simply too painful to be experienced, as you could imagine. Releasing these emotions would be too much to handle. So the ego determines that there has to be another way to get attention to the emotions. It resorts to causing physical pain. If anything gets your attention, it's physical pain.

How does the subconcious do this? The subconsious has the possibility of directing bloodflow when faced with emotions. Examples of this are blushing (where blood involuntarily rushes to the head), getting really scared (where blood involuntarily flows from the head) and nervousness (where blood is withdrawn from the extremities). You have probably experienced each of these. The subconscious can cause pain by causing slight oxygen deprevation to take place in muscles. The fact that this hurts can be easily demonstrated. Hold both your arms out to the side horizontally. After a while this causes muscles to tense up, limiting bloodflow and causing pain in the muscles. The limiting of bloodflow is called ischemia. Local ischemia causes myofascial trigger points. Therefore myofascial pain could be called TMS pain. Trigger points are accepted by the scientific community, since they can easily be spotted on MRI, CT and x-rays. https://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurology/PainManagement/7545 However, the medical community fails to explain what causes trigger points. TMS explains this. Further scientific evidence for this paragraph is given later.

The last 40-50 years there have been sudden epidemics of certain illnesses that basically didn't exist before. Examples of these are: carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, stomach ulcers, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrom, whiplash, slipped disc pain and many more. Let's take carpal tunnel syndrom (CTS). CTS has reached epidemic proportions over the last decades. It's interesting to note that before 1980 the disease was practically unheard of. It is often said that CTS is caused by straining repetitive activies (computer use in particular). That would explain why so many people started getting the illness as soon as computer became popular (the 80's). Right? What about typewriters? They take a lot more effort to operate, so they cause a lot more strain. Still, before 1980 CTS wasn´t a problem, even with people who used typewriters all day. The best example of this are the typists in WW2. Tens of thousands of women typed constantly at least 14 hours a day for 4 years. Yet none of them experienced any problems. And then we're not even talking about musicians. How strenuous and repetitive do you think a concert pianist's job is for the hands when compared to someone why uses a computer keyboard all day? Yet the concert pianist doesn't have CTS but the computer user does. CTS occurrences seem to be completely random. There have been multiple studies that link ischemia to CTS (I can provide links to some more if needed):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9280998
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18674994
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/micr.20071/abstract

Let's take back pain next. Slipped disc pain (hernias) are often said to cause pain because a nerve is pinched. In 99% of the cases, this just is not true.
https://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/58724C06DE466C1F852569F9004A13A1?OpenDocument&id=29DA64443C49B34E852568CB00031B46&c=Back%20Pain&count=10
In 53% of all back surgery there is absolutely no relief of symptoms and the patients end up worse then they were before. In 99% of the cases the back pain disappeared without surgery:
https://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=44464
Furthermore there is a huge online community of people who have read the books and are now symptom free, while doctors told them they wouldn't be able to walk properly if they didn't have surgery (this is just one of the books):
https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connection/product-reviews/0446392308/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
The most common surgery is spinal fusion surgery, yet there is no evidence that this procedure does anything to improve the symptoms. This article also links to 2 studies which prove that 90-97% percent of all chronic back pain doesn't have anything to do with the nerves, but instead it is caused by the muscles. All of this corresponds with TMS. With slipped disc pain we have the exact same situation as CTS: before 1950 chronic back pain was basically unheard of. Then suddenly it became huge. The human body has not changed the last 50 years. Then there is also the issue why some people get back pain but others don't? Why are there 50-year old marathon runners who don't have any back pain while there are 30-year olds with desk jobs that do have back pain? Their bodies are the same.

The reason that these diseases reach epidemic proportions is that the subconcious needs to find a place where pain can be caused without arousing suspicion. Diseases that are in vogue are a good way to do this. The media plays a big role in this. It seems logical. "Hmm, these people say that bad workplace ergonomics lead to CTS and back pain. I have bad ergonomics." And before you know it, they have CTS and backpain. The US government even stated at some point: "The White House promised relief today to millions of works with aching backs, crippled fingers, sore wrists and other physical problems caused or aggravated by their jobs."

In the face of this evidence, why doesn't the medical community look into this or even accept that there may be such a thing as TMS? Well, pain sells. Carpal tunnel and back pain relief are the current cash cows of the medical community. The marketplace and economic factors have taken over. It´s not just about the surgeries: Pain clinics have sprouted up all over the place, there are "posture adjustment lessons", lessons to "lift properly", people sell ergonomic chairs, ergonomic mousepads, ergonomic pillows etc. The last one is especially interesting. As you may know, a large part of the population of Japan (and before 1950 the entire population) sleeps on 10-inch high pieces of wood: https://hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/exhibitions/images/cen/culmination/asia/japan/9_9160.jpg Yet neck pain is virtually unheard of in Japan. Also, I'm pretty sure our prehistoric ancestors didn't have access to ergonomic matresses and pillows. Yet if each one of them had had horrible back pain then the human race would have become extinct long ago.

Ofcourse there are many doctors who are sincerely interested in helping patients, but it's hard for someone to throw away a big part of what they've learned. Then there's also the problem of "victim-identity" among patients. They have identified themselves with their illness. A big part of their personality consists of being "a sufferer of this disease". Many people don't actually want to be cured.

Up to about 20 years ago the medical community still thought that the mind and the body were completely seperate. But now they have already accepted that stomach ulcers are caused by stress and that the brain's structure is influenced by the way we think (neuron pathways). If you had said this 20 years ago they would have laughed at you and said it was impossible. It's amazing how fast things change.

While this theory was written out and perfected by John Sarno in his books, the basic ideas were discovered by many different scientists starting with Charcot around 1850. He was followed by Freud, Adler, Walters, Franz Alexander. They all recognised that physical complaints were caused by the mind. I have tried to condense a big amount of literature into one post, so if anyone wants extra information about a certain part I can do that.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 03:28:53 AM by In The Name Of Rudess »

Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2010, 03:11:35 AM »
Whoa Whoa Whoa! Please don't bring this thread up.
Take a break from the forum or from the sub-forum. That's what I SHOULD have done before posting that thread.

Sorry for that. I will be taking a break after the discussion in this tread is over.

Offline rumborak

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2010, 07:36:48 AM »
In the face of this evidence, why doesn't the medical community look into this or even accept that there may be such a thing as TMS? Well, pain sells. Carpal tunnel and back pain relief are the current cash cows of the medical community.

I knew it couldn't take long until this kind of argument comes up. The classic conspiracy against the truth because it makes money.

rumborak
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Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2010, 07:39:09 AM »
In the face of this evidence, why doesn't the medical community look into this or even accept that there may be such a thing as TMS? Well, pain sells. Carpal tunnel and back pain relief are the current cash cows of the medical community.

I knew it couldn't take long until this kind of argument comes up. The classic conspiracy against the truth because it makes money.

rumborak


Seriously? Just because that line is in there you completely disregard the rest of the post?

Offline Seventh Son

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #86 on: November 07, 2010, 07:47:42 AM »
In the face of this evidence, why doesn't the medical community look into this or even accept that there may be such a thing as TMS? Well, pain sells. Carpal tunnel and back pain relief are the current cash cows of the medical community.

I knew it couldn't take long until this kind of argument comes up. The classic conspiracy against the truth because it makes money.

rumborak


Seriously? Just because that line is in there you completely disregard the rest of the post?
Come on, I'm sure you can admit that its a very cliche argument.
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Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2010, 07:51:03 AM »
In the face of this evidence, why doesn't the medical community look into this or even accept that there may be such a thing as TMS? Well, pain sells. Carpal tunnel and back pain relief are the current cash cows of the medical community.

I knew it couldn't take long until this kind of argument comes up. The classic conspiracy against the truth because it makes money.

rumborak


Seriously? Just because that line is in there you completely disregard the rest of the post?
Come on, I'm sure you can admit that its a very cliche argument.

If you read it just like that, yes. If you read it with all the scientific evidence I just gave, then no. And the same question for you:

Seriously? Just because that line is in there you completely disregard the rest of the post?

Offline rumborak

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2010, 08:12:36 AM »
Ok, might as well address some stuff then:


[..]emotions are suppressed they are contained in the subconscious mind where they are stored in an emotional "reservoir". This reservoir is not endless, it fills up over time.

[...] The subconsious has the possibility of directing bloodflow when faced with emotions

[...]the subconcious needs to find a place where pain can be caused without arousing suspicion.

The above is such a collection of pseudo-psychology, it's almost unbearable to read through. Sorry dude, but brains don]t have containers that fill up and subconscious egos that make autonomous decisions to create pain. Sure, the components you speak of exist in certain forms in the human psyche, but your reappropriation of these concepts for your theory here is ridiculous. Honstly, it reads like New Age mumbo-jumbo about energies and fields (also reappropriations of valid concepts to fit the theory of the proponent).

Quote
The last 40-50 years there have been sudden epidemics of certain illnesses that basically didn't exist before. Examples of these are: carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, stomach ulcers, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrom, whiplash, slipped disc pain and many more. Let's take carpal tunnel syndrom (CTS). CTS has reached epidemic proportions over the last decades. It's interesting to note that before 1980 the disease was practically unheard of. It is often said that CTS is caused by straining repetitive activies (computer use in particular). That would explain why so many people started getting the illness as soon as computer became popular (the 80's). Right? What about typewriters? They take a lot more effort to operate, so they cause a lot more strain.

How many people used typewriters, and how many people use computers? Not only that, but typewriters required a much more expanded motion to physically push down the hammer. The problem with computers is that your wrist is in perfectly still position and only your fingers move a slight bit. And, oh shit, CTS surgery gives relief, I know several examples in my direct circle of friends. Or is your theory that the surgery emptied the reservoir of bad emotions?

Quote
In 53% of all back surgery there is absolutely no relief of symptoms and the patients end up worse then they were before. In 99% of the cases the back pain disappeared without surgery:
https://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=44464

Mayeb you should read the articles you quote. "current estimates suggest that 90-97 percent of all low back/leg pain is caused by dysfunction of either the spinal joints or muscles, or both".

Quote
The most common surgery is spinal fusion surgery, yet there is no evidence that this procedure does anything to improve the symptoms.

Failure of treatment doesn't mean the idea about the cause of the disease is wrong. Surgery is always very invasive and should be a last resort thing, and might not help at all. We all know that. When you have knee surgery people just know their knee will never be the same as before.

rumborak
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Offline j

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2010, 08:39:23 AM »
Let's talk about the psychological background first. Why would the mind cause physical pain? As you probably know, humans have a conscious self and a subconscious self. The subconscious self is contained in the most primitive part of the brain. This part of the brain is responsible for primitive emotions like anger, rage, sadness etc. Each time a human experiences one of these emotions there are 2 options: to experience the emotion or to suppress it. People in western society like to suppress emotions. "Tough it out." "Be a man about it" When emotions are suppressed they are contained in the subconscious mind where they are stored in an emotional "reservoir". This reservoir is not endless, it fills up over time. When it is filled up, the emotions need to be expressed in one way or another. The things I just discussed are all basic psychology, and the ideas are generally accepted by psychologists. The brain's decision maker, the ego, determines what happens next. The emotion stored in the subconscious are simply too painful to be experienced, as you could imagine. Releasing these emotions would be too much to handle. So the ego determines that there has to be another way to get attention to the emotions. It resorts to causing physical pain. If anything gets your attention, it's physical pain.

This is the problem with psychology: such a huge swath of it is unverifiable.  It would be one thing if it were limited to neurological processes and functions that could be observed, but psychologists often eschew the scientific method for..."alternative" approaches to research.  Most of what you've put forth is *not* basic psychology.  The "subconscious" is not really a legitimate concept, even by psychology's standards (it's considered too vague and poorly defined).  Human emotion is not something that is well-understood neurologically, and it is almost certainly not confined to one segment of the brain.  And I've finished my psychology related courses in med school and recently completed my clinical rotation, and this is the first I've heard of this concept of an "emotional reservoir".

I will try to respond to some of your references and stuff later today.

-J

Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2010, 08:52:48 AM »
@Rumborak: You just disregarded about 90% of the stuff in my post. So I assume these were the only things you had an explanation for?

The above is such a collection of pseudo-psychology, it's almost unbearable to read through. Sorry dude, but brains don]t have containers that fill up and subconscious egos that make autonomous decisions to create pain. Sure, the components you speak of exist in certain forms in the human psyche, but your reappropriation of these concepts for your theory here is ridiculous. Honstly, it reads like New Age mumbo-jumbo about energies and fields (also reappropriations of valid concepts to fit the theory of the proponent).

If the subconscious can't make autonomous decisions, then how do you start blushing for example? Do you purposefully tell your body: okay, now send some blood to my head. No, you don't. So there's something below your awareness that's doing that. This is called the autonomic-peptide system. This is the autonomic branch of the nervous system that controls involuntary responses, like circulatory and gastrointestinal systems. This happens to be in the exact same part of the brain as the subconcious.

Also: I doubt you have the credentials and/or the knowledge to just say that all the work of the most important psychologists in history (Freud, Adler, Walters, Franz Alexander) is wrong. I can also refer you to my response to j's post (at the bottom).

How many people used typewriters, and how many people use computers?

At least 10 million people used typewriters. There are indeed more people that use computers now, but when millions of people used typewriters and not one had an issue with them isn't that enough?

I can go further in into how TMS and CTS are related, if you wish.

Not only that, but typewriters required a much more expanded motion to physically push down the hammer. The problem with computers is that your wrist is in perfectly still position and only your fingers move a slight bit.

Then how about the example of the pianist? Many pianists play with their wrists perfectly still with only their fingers moving a bit. Keyboard players who play unweighted keys play almost exclusively with their wrist perfectly still. They don't have any problems.

And, oh shit, CTS surgery gives relief, I know several examples in my direct circle of friends. Or is your theory that the surgery emptied the reservoir of bad emotions?

There is certainly a theory for that. It is called the symptom imperative. Like I said in my original post, the subconscious needs to find a place where pain doesn't arouse suspicion. So when one place isn't plausible anymore, the pain will move to another location. This can take months, or years depending on the person. But it always comes back, even if in another location.

Mayeb you should read the articles you quote. "current estimates suggest that 90-97 percent of all low back/leg pain is caused by dysfunction of either the spinal joints or muscles, or both".

So? Dysfunction of the spinal joints isn't the same as a pinched nerve. Slipped disc pain is caused by nerve entrapment according to the medical community. Spinal joint dysfunction means that there is a decrease in the amount of synovial fluid between the discs. Those are totally different things.

Failure of treatment doesn't mean the idea about the cause of the disease is wrong. Surgery is always very invasive and should be a last resort thing, and might not help at all. We all know that. When you have knee surgery people just know their knee will never be the same as before.

That may be true in some cases, but here it isn't: The medical community claims chronic back pain is caused by nerve intrapment. The surgery is used to relieve the pressure on the nerve. But relieving the pressure doesn't work in 50% of the cases, even when the surgery is a complete success. So relieving the pressure on the nerve doesn't cause any pain-relief in 50% of the cases. The other 50% can be explained by the syptom imperative. So the cause should be nerve entrapment, but when the nerve is released there is no improvement. Clearly the nerve entrapment had nothing to do with it.

This is the problem with psychology: such a huge swath of it is unverifiable.  It would be one thing if it were limited to neurological processes and functions that could be observed, but psychologists often eschew the scientific method for..."alternative" approaches to research.  Most of what you've put forth is *not* basic psychology.  The "subconscious" is not really a legitimate concept, even by psychology's standards (it's considered too vague and poorly defined).  Human emotion is not something that is well-understood neurologically, and it is almost certainly not confined to one segment of the brain.  And I've finished my psychology related courses in med school and recently completed my clinical rotation, and this is the first I've heard of this concept of an "emotional reservoir".

I will try to respond to some of your references and stuff later today.

-J

It's indeed non-verifiable. It was logically deduced from a huge number of patients. That's how the entire field of psychology works. The theory for TMS was also logically deduced from a huge number of patients. The theory was built over the course of 150 years based on experience of many different physicians, just like every concept in psychology.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 09:03:50 AM by In The Name Of Rudess »

Offline rumborak

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #91 on: November 07, 2010, 09:10:05 AM »
@Rumborak: You just disregarded about 90% of the stuff in my post. So I assume these were the only things you had an explanation for?

Frankly, given that you know what I think about the validity of your theory, I believe you will understand that I don't address every tiny sub-point of it.

Quote
If the subconscious can't make autonomous decisions, then how do you start blushing for example? Do you purposefully tell your body: okay, now send some blood to my head. No, you don't. So there's something below your awareness that's doing that. This is called the autonomic-peptide system. This is the autonomic branch of the nervous system that controls involuntary responses, like circulatory and gastrointestinal systems. This happens to be in the exact same part of the brain as the subconcious.

Of course there is that system. The stark difference between what you are describing now is all mechanical. Blushing is an involuntary, almost mechanical response. What you described earlier was an independent actor inside one's brain that decides how to covertly drain its filled-up container of bad emotions into an area that "doesn't arouse suspicion". Big difference.

Quote
Also: I doubt you have the credentials and/or the knowledge to just say that all the work of the most important psychologists in history (Freud, Adler, Walters, Franz Alexander) is wrong.

You didn't just give Freud as a credential, did you? :lol
Freud these days is mostly of historical value.

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Then how about the example of the pianist? Many pianists play with their wrists perfectly still with only their fingers moving a bit. Keyboard players who play unweighted keys play almost exclusively with their wrist perfectly still. They don't have any problems.

1. What piano players do you look at? Can't remember seeing the last one that didn't move his wrists. Does the music you listen usually involve no more than 12 adjacent notes?
2. https://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1931367

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So? Dysfunction of the spinal joints isn't the same as a pinched nerve. Slipped disc pain is caused by nerve entrapment according to the medical community. Spinal joint dysfunction means that there is a decrease in the amount of synovial fluid between the discs. Those are totally different things.

You are the one making the claim that 95% of all back pain is psychosomatic. You're chipping away at your own statistic here.

Quote
So relieving the pressure on the nerve doesn't cause any pain-relief in 50% of the cases. The other 50% can be explained by the syptom imperative. So the cause should be nerve entrapment, but when the nerve is released there is no improvement. Clearly the nerve entrapment had nothing to do with it.

Haha, classic. If it works, it's only because something else was behind it. It it doesn't work, more proof that something else was behind it!! :lol
You've maneuvred yourself unwittingly into a situation where any evidence, no matter which, supposedly confirms your theory. Meaning, you've shielded yourself from any objective evaluation of your theory. And it shows. Seriously, your argumentation shows every indication of conspiracy theorist. We've by now heard of the "big man" who keeps the truth under tabs, we've heard of the underdog guy that knows the truth alone and who is ridiculed by his field, and we've seen the double-argumentation that reinterprets any evidence into support for the theory.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline eric42434224

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2010, 09:53:56 AM »
In The Name Of Rudess;
I think you need to evaluate what you truly wish to get out of this thread.  It is obvious that you are very attached to your theory and feel a need for validity and acceptance.  I dont think you will achieve either here, and I personally do not see it ending well.  If this is your last topic before leaving for a while, you would do well to cut your losses now and take a break.  There is likely no compromise on this topic, and I see it only getting worse.  Truly not trying to be a jerk...just my opinion.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: For those who are interested in evolution.
« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2010, 11:27:32 AM »
I think you need to evaluate what you truly wish to get out of this thread.

What I wish to get out of threads in P/R is a healthy discussion about a certain subject, without unargumented replies, personal attacks, and without replies like: "I don't agree with one sentence out of the 150 sentences in your post so I'm not even going to bother to reply to the rest." Clearly this is not possible.

It is obvious that you are very attached to your theory and feel a need for validity and acceptance.

I think you know the answer to that, since I've said it about 5 times already and I'm not going to say it again.

If this is your last topic before leaving for a while, you would do well to cut your losses now and take a break.  There is likely no compromise on this topic, and I see it only getting worse.

This is a politics and religion forum. The topics that are discussed here have no compromise 90% of the time. Then why do people post here? To exchange ideas about certain topics, which was what I was trying to do. Unfortunately some open-mindedness in others is needed for that. So I guess I should take a break now. A very long break probably, unless the personality of various people here suddenly changes while I'm gone.