Sonata Arctica thread

[The Walrus]

I tried whittling it down to like a top 30 and then going from there but even that could change from day to day... so I dunno. Here's off the top of my head my top 10 in no particular order:

Abandoned, Pleased, Brainwashed, Exploited
Gravenimage
The Boy Who Wanted To Be A Real Puppet
White Pearl, Black Oceans
Shamandalie
Deathaura
The Dead Skin
The Harvest
Fly With The Black Swan
Larger Than Life

Tony's lyrics are some of my favorite in any music. He's a really good poet, and The Dead Skin in particular has one of my favorite descriptions of a broken relationship ever, with the best parts in bold:

"It all has ended, the clock's rewinded
We don't mean anything to me, you think?
I killed this silence for you to end the night
The words are loaded, unprotected, one torso, no head
One valid reason, the life's suspended
If love's the neck that kept us together and apart, now it's broken
There's no cast, no real solution
When it is broken, it will stay that way
Believe me when I say this; I would not if I did not care
Who needs who, when, and what the hell for?
Who wants to suffer and be hardcore?
And who's strong enough to peel off the dead skin?"

Or in Larger Than Life which has basically become my mantra:

"So don't take life so seriously
Play, love, have fun, leave misery be
Regrets are built in a cold dark cage where nothing ever happens"

[The Walrus]

Okay, honestly: is there anyone who likes Talviyö?

It is a bad album to me. And it's not bad because there is some dreadful playing, it's a bad album because it's boring and it sounds as if the band has absolutely no energy anymore. It's a midtempo slog through and through, the nods to the older days are lukewarm and half-hearted at best, the melodies lack richness and have almost no memorability, as I said elsewhere it represents the husk of a once titanic beast that never seemed to run out of creative juice. The mix is poor, the songwriting is not very impressive, the shoehorning of distorted guitar parts just for the sake of having a distorted guitar hum annoyingly underneath the rest of the band, even the lyrics aren't as strong as they used to be, and I've always considered Tony one of the best lyricists out there.

I want to like this. I really do. But it's Ninth Hour all over again, except that album at least had 2 songs I liked. I'm sad.

[MirrorMask]

Yeah, it's pretty bad. Sure, it's still Sonata, or better, it's still Tony singing so if you listen to it some times, you kinda go along with it, and Message from the Sun feels somehow cool and right now as I think of it the melodies of Who Failed the Most are quite decent, but overall it's a boring slogfest.

Ninth Hour was just as bad but as you said it had at least two songs worth of their name, the anthemic Life and the intense 'Til Death do us Part which was as great as Juliet if not even more, and We are What we Are is a classic Sonata ballad... but this album is sheer boredom through and through. The (yet another? how long does it have to go on?) Caleb song is so boring and uneventful, the longest song is a bore and even the final ballad is snooze inducing.

Nothing here sucks in the sense of a very bad and unlisteneable song, but it's all so boring and uninspired.

[The Walrus]

The Last of the Lambs reminds me of The Worlds Forgotten, The Words Forbidden, if the latter didn't have any mysterious intensity or intriguing melodies and rhythm going on. It just fizzles out before it does anything interesting.

[ErHaO]

As someone who really enjoyed most songs on Ninth Hour and loves a couple of them, I agree this one is pretty bad. The instrumental is good and I am sure it is killer live, but pretty much all the other songs bore me. And the sound production is probably their worst yet, which kills the bit of life some of these songs potentially had in them.

Anyways, my top 10 of songs I absolutely love:

1: Deathaura
2: White Pearl, Black Oceans
3: Wildfire
4: Till Death's Done Us Apart
5: Broken
6: Juliet
7: Kingdom of a Heart
8: Wolf and Raven
9: What Did You Do in the War Dad
10: Alone in Heaven

[The Walrus]

^ Love seeing some appreciation for Alone In Heaven. Stones is an underrated album and that's a great song. I'm probably in the minority that thinks that album is excellent, but yeah, great song.

[cramx3]

For Kat, on this full moon

Sonata Arctica - Full Moon Live in New York City 9/14/2019

[MoraWintersoul]

Ninth Hour was just as bad but as you said it had at least two songs worth of their name, the anthemic Life and the intense 'Til Death do us Part which was as great as Juliet if not even more, and We are What we Are is a classic Sonata ballad...

I'll challenge this a little bit: I thought that Fly, Navigate, Communicate was a far-above-average Unia-style song (and if the rest of the songs Tony has been writing for his solo album are as good as this and Somewhere Close To You, it will be one of my favorite albums), WPBO pt.2 had me surprisingly emotional even though it's a bit uneventful compared to the original, Fairytale had attitude and tempo, and On The Faultline is at the very least unique in their catalog. I like this album, obviously, and I think none of the other songs are outright bad besides the snoozefest that is Candle Lawns.

The production was bad (there's a moment in the dueling solo on WPBO2 where Henkka's keyboard just dips beneath the limits of my hearing and I can't tell the notes apart when he finishes the solo), but the ideas are good, the melodies are good, there is variety, and Tony gave a very inspired performance. He approached an operatic style for the first time and he emoted extremely well, unlike this album.

[Lethean]

I've been enjoying this album, alone in the world I supposed.   Also enjoyed their live set opening for Kamelot.

[ErHaO]

^ Love seeing some appreciation for Alone In Heaven. Stones is an underrated album and that's a great song. I'm probably in the minority that thinks that album is excellent, but yeah, great song.

Yeah, I love the song! Really good vocals by Tony too.

I've been enjoying this album, alone in the world I supposed.   Also enjoyed their live set opening for Kamelot.

Well, glad to hear someone is digging it. Only Ismo will be in my playlists in the future.

[MoraWintersoul]

I've come around on the album.

Lately I've been doing a lot of Sonata listening and reminiscing and I remembered how disappointed I was with Stones Grow Her Name, their third album I got to welcome as a fan, and one I had high hopes for. It  has a lot of things going for it: it's the last Sonata album with a truly good mix and master, it's eclectic, it's exploring a genre that is absolutely in their repertoire and DNA, it has some great songs, but at the same time, it is doing the absolute opposite from playing to their strengths, and it has at least four songs that I listen to and think "wow, this is the worst song on the album. no, THIS is the worst song on the album. no, this is one of their worst songs of all time! and this one is barely a Sonata song at all!"

And now, looking back, I feel like it's not a big deal at all. Like, a blip on the radar. They put out music regularly and always think of tours that are fun to follow. That one time they got to explore something and try something new and I got an album I liked better in two years. So now I can appreciate the whole SGHN cycle for what it is.

Looking at Talviyo interviews, I can pinpoint the exact decisions that lead to things that I don't like about this album, starting with the weird idea that they should make a "live sound" album. I don't understand why, most bands they like and those they have modeled their career after have also been complimented for sounding great live but never got the idea that this means they should make a live sounding album. But fair enough. Apparently this has been a thing for them since Pariah's Child, so I guess that's at least part of the reason why we hated Pasi's mixes, since that's what they've been trying to get him to do. I guess they've been reading too many 70's bands biographies and got some weird ideas The weird tempos, strangely enough, can be chalked up to Pasi and Tommy recording the drum and bass parts together and having fun with it - just because the beat sounds good to them while they're playing it together (because they do have great chemistry), doesn't mean that it's the right tempo for that particular song. And finally, it's the first album where Tony had all of the songs ready before they entered the studio, which is fine, but some of his late additions to every album have been my favorite songs, so it's weird to have an album with those moments missing.

They talk a lot about how they kinda went half way between not having an outside producer at all to having their front-of-house sound guy producing them on this album, and Tony admits he'd like to have someone filling the classic producer role to come in before the mixing stage and give advice on which songs should be slower or faster or which things should be added or subtracted. But they also say they're not ready to take that step since album creation is a very intimate thing for them and they are just not comfortable bringing in someone they don't know extremely well into that process. Maybe they could benefit from someone coming in and shaking them up like Peter Tägtgren did to Amorphis on their Circle album. But I think they'd be best served by just working the way they used to before Pariah's Child, with all of them doing exactly what's in the job description, rehearsing, recording each other and themselves, carefully selecting songs, and then sending them off to get a proper Sonata Arctica sound, the one we know and love from several albums before.

[MirrorMask]

Looking back at my initial dislike (or, to put it better, lukewarm reception) of Stones Grow Her Name, I now WISH they'd do an album that had all together catchy songs like I Have a Right and Only the Broken Hearts, a great ballad like Alone in Heaven, and prog/heavy epic stuff like the two Wildifires.

[Lethean]

I still really like Talviyo a lot.  To me it's a beautiful dreamy album and I'm very glad to have it.

[The Walrus]

I think putting Pasi on mixing duty ranks as one of the worst decisions this band has ever made. No hyperbole - Stones was the last great album from Sonata, imo, in no small part due to the great production on it. Pariah's Child, The Ninth Hour, Talviyö, they all sound horrible, which does the songwriting no favors. TNH and Talviyö are far and away the nadir of Tony's musical career imo, and that hurts to say because Sonata has always been one of my most favorite bands ever.

(Good post, Mora - I agree with a lot of it.)

[MoraWintersoul]

Sonata is my favorite band, period. There's just no comparison between them and any other band (artist-wise in general, Kevin Moore rules my pantheon) for me. Even when I hate what they're doing it's still fun to watch and see if they'll pull out of it. That's why the thing that hurts me the most is when they mess with fixing things that aren't broken, like the sound and the energy. Mess with the writing instead, like in the good old days when you pissed everyone off with left turns every two years, including even getting me whining like a baby with SGHN the sound is the most permanent thing on the album. The songs can always be changed, by the band live or on a special release, or by the listener putting them in a playlist or whatever. But I'll never get Cold sounding like an absolute power ballad banger that it truly is.

I still really like Talviyo a lot.  To me it's a beautiful dreamy album and I'm very glad to have it.

See, the writing really is dreamy in a lot of places. The multi-layered vibes of The Garden, for example, really found their way into my heart. It's one of the best "family songs" they have, and it also hits you on a different level if you know they had garden release parties (or maybe just one, I can't remember if it was a one time thing) and you can understand and imagine and your heart just soars, because one of the things I really love about them is that they're truly a band of brothers. It's not just a thing they say. But they also gave US "the garden"  and it's something I feel for them, too. So I can never be too mad at them or pan them too much.

[Lethean]

Sonata is my favorite band, period. There's just no comparison between them and any other band (artist-wise in general, Kevin Moore rules my pantheon) for me. Even when I hate what they're doing it's still fun to watch and see if they'll pull out of it. That's why the thing that hurts me the most is when they mess with fixing things that aren't broken, like the sound and the energy. Mess with the writing instead, like in the good old days when you pissed everyone off with left turns every two years, including even getting me whining like a baby with SGHN the sound is the most permanent thing on the album. The songs can always be changed, by the band live or on a special release, or by the listener putting them in a playlist or whatever. But I'll never get Cold sounding like an absolute power ballad banger that it truly is.

I still really like Talviyo a lot.  To me it's a beautiful dreamy album and I'm very glad to have it.

See, the writing really is dreamy in a lot of places. The multi-layered vibes of The Garden, for example, really found their way into my heart. It's one of the best "family songs" they have, and it also hits you on a different level if you know they had garden release parties (or maybe just one, I can't remember if it was a one time thing) and you can understand and imagine and your heart just soars, because one of the things I really love about them is that they're truly a band of brothers. It's not just a thing they say. But they also gave US "the garden"  and it's something I feel for them, too. So I can never be too mad at them or pan them too much.

I think The Garden is a beautiful way to end the album.  I get that it's not for everyone, either the song or the whole album, but I find it really captivating.  Talviyo is by far my favorite since The Days of Grays.  I really love Cold personally.  I was quite surprised to like Cold the first time I heard it after reading the negative comments. The song only grew on me when I got the album.

[MoraWintersoul]

When Cold came out I thought "okay cool we are back to bad Sonata singles" (since I liked Closer To An Animal a lot, despite the mix). But the number of times I hummed "it's cold ooooh ooooohh ooooooohh" over the course of this winter kinda defeated me  it's a freaking earworm and I hear Queen all over it. The lyrics are also hitting me really hard at the moment.

Side note, one of my biggest metal disappointments is that not a lot of bands are flying the Queen influence flag the way SA guys do. When Tony describes the way he got into Queen, it's the exact same way I got into Queen (being a normal kid who listens to stuff recorded off the radio one day, and seeing a Queen concert on TV the next and becoming a huge fan), and at exactly the same age too. And I know a lot of people who have similar stories are musicians, so I don't know what's up with the lack of Queen influences on the scene.

[wolfking]

I may have given the album more of a chance but the production and mixing is just horrid.

[MoraWintersoul]

Yup, it's one of the worst I've heard. Literally everything about it is both objectively bad and objectively wrong for their sound.

Side note, just went through the thread to see if I whined about SGHN on DTF too (of course I did) and I found this moment:

Well, you can't really call Shitload of Money one of the highlights of the new album! The new album has some great stuff like Somewhere Close to You and Wildfires II and III but it can't beat Unia.

Hi. You're my friend now whether you like it or not.

Truly the start of a wonderful friendship 

It was funny to go back through it and see how they made all our setlist wishes come true, especially around The Ninth Hour tour. They did do all the Caleb songs in order, did bring back WPBO, did The Power Of One about 150 times, did Destruction Preventer, Abandoned Pleased Brainwashed Exploited... good years for long and rare songs.

[Evermind]

It was funny to go back through it and see how they made all our setlist wishes come true, especially around The Ninth Hour tour. They did do all the Caleb songs in order, did bring back WPBO, did The Power Of One about 150 times, did Destruction Preventer, Abandoned Pleased Brainwashed Exploited... good years for long and rare songs.

Except all of these shows were in Europe (I think) and not on the album tours proper, so we didn't get any of that in Russia. I don't know if that was due to promoters, but I can't imagine any fan in Russia skipping the Ecliptica revisited tour. Given how everyone goes nuts whenever they play anything from that album, the venue would've probably been full. Oh well.

I remember bitching about SGHN, and while I still think The Days of Grays was their last great album, I admit these days SGHN is more attractive to me than anything that came after it. I liked Pariah's Child when it came out, but now I think I'll take SGHN over it.

I may have given the album more of a chance but the production and mixing is just horrid.

Ditto. I feel Talviyo had potential but I didn't come back to the album after the first listen, the production killed it for me.

[MoraWintersoul]

Except all of these shows were in Europe (I think) and not on the album tours proper, so we didn't get any of that in Russia. I don't know if that was due to promoters, but I can't imagine any fan in Russia skipping the Ecliptica revisited tour. Given how everyone goes nuts whenever they play anything from that album, the venue would've probably been full. Oh well.

The setlist for the TNH tour was about the same across the world (they also played Misplaced at some points but dropped it, and The Ruins Of My Life for the first time ever, which no one thought to record... literally what the fuck), I think you're one of the only countries who got a different one because it was like months later but still announced as the TNH tour, which is pretty goddamn stupid. But yeah, I also didn't get to see the Ecliptica Revisited tour because they came nowhere near me, nor the TNH tour because I was moving across Europe in that exact timeframe, so I feel for you. 

Was fun to follow audience recordings though. The setlist they stuck with the longest (without Misplaced and TROML) is objectively too short and I bitched about it a lot, but nowadays when I put on a full 2016 show on Youtube and the 2003 tour intro plays after the intermission (no! more! silence! bring your winter in my heaaart), I have to admit it's really rad. If I went to any of those shows you'd have to scrape me off the ceiling afterwards.

I remember bitching about SGHN, and while I still think The Days of Grays was their last great album, I admit these days SGHN is more attractive to me than anything that came after it. I liked Pariah's Child when it came out, but now I think I'll take SGHN over it.

Pariah's Child is weird. It has a few songs I love, the vibe is good, but it doesn't have any real highs (the songs they thought were real highs aren't it for me, except War), unlike The Ninth Hour which does have some misses (I never wanna hear Candle Lawns again) but the highs are high. The eclectic side that carried on from SGHN is also strongly represented with three songs, but the one I like the best (Half A Marathon Man) isn't found often in the setlists, and those I like less (Cloud Factory, X Marks The Spot) are found a little too often, especially X Marks The Spot. Cloud Factory sounds cool on those acoustic shows though.

[The Walrus]

Time for an album ranking (for the studio albums)

Untouchable tier:
1. Winterheart's Guild
2. Reckoning Night
3. Unia
4. The Days of Grays

Great:
5. Stones Grow Her Name
6. Ecliptica
7. Silence

Aged poorly, went from great to meh:
8. Pariah's Child

Many months has done nothing for it but it's due for a fair replay I suppose:
9. Talviyö

What:
10. The Ninth Hour

[Lethean]

I guess this is one of those times that I'm really glad I don't care about the production. I listened to Talviyo yesterday after talking about it in this thread and still love it.  But I suppose Takatalvi would be more appropriate right now given the weather.

[MirrorMask]

My ranking:

- ABSOLUTE FAVORITES: Silence, Unia
- COMING RIGHT BEHIND: Ecliptica, Reckoning Night
- LOTS OF GREAT STUFF: Winterheart's Guild, The Days of Grays
- WELL, AT LEAST THE HIGHLIGHTS ARE QUITE STRONG: Stones Grow Her Name
- THOSE TWO-THREE SONGS ARE GREAT, MAYBE THE NEXT ALBUM WILL BE OKAYISH: The Ninth Hour
- MEH: Pariah's Child
- OK, IT'S BEEN NICE SONATA, SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH: Talviyö

[The Walrus]

 

To be honest, I don't know how one can't care about production; it's as important to the listening experience as the songs themselves. Listening to the last 3 albums compared to TDOG is like comparing a 128kbs MP3 with a much higher bitrate MP3 of the same song. Same reason I can't listen to much Mangini era DT, because the production affects the sonic qualities of the music. Tastes!

[Lethean]

Yeah I have no issues with Mangini era DT in that regard, or later MP-era either, which I remember reading lots of complaints about as well.  (Actually, I'm not sure I remember a time as a music fan on forums where people weren't complaining about the production of this or that.)

So I guess I'll consider myself lucky.  But to me, it's absolutely not as important as the songs.  And maybe that's the key.  If something is bothering me, and I'll be honest and say l have no idea if that something is production, the mix, brickwalling, or whatever... it tends to not bother me after a while if I like the songs.  Like I know there are albums where I've thought the vocals should be a little louder - so probably a mix complaint.  But even though I know I've thought that before, I can't come up with an example right now.  So it's something that I guess just isn't that important to me and I forget about as I'm exploring the songs.

Talviyo is a recent enough example though that I'm pretty sure I didn't even have some kind of minor issue. I was just drawn in by the songs.  Or maybe production does have something to do with it but I actually like it. 

I'm not suggesting that it's somehow wrong for others to have issues with the production or whatever.  I don't think anyone is wrong or right in this.  Just sharing my own experience since that's what's being discussed and since I do love the album. 

[The Walrus]

I kind of get being able to look past it, but fundamentally I just can't look past the production if it's noticeable enough to make the music sound muddy or flat or not beneficial to what the group is trying to accomplish. It's weird hearing albums made in bedrooms that sound better than albums made in full blown studios (Billie Eilish's debut is a great example) because the people engineering the record just aren't making the best choices. "Cold" is emblematic of everything I hate about what Sonata's doing with their sound, Pasi should be banned from the board because the rhythm section in that song is so lifeless and lacks any power imo. It's also not just me (I'm certainly no audiophile), this is definitely one of the more popular criticisms of the band in recent years. You're kind of lucky if it doesn't bother you at all, honestly.

[MoraWintersoul]

I can't do rankings (when you start with three albums sharing one spot at the top it only makes less sense from there) but I can do duels!

Ecliptica vs Silence: Ecliptica wins by a hair. Silence is objectively the superior album, it has my fave power metal songs (False News, San Sebastian) and it has TEOTC, but Ecliptica has more of those classic tracks that are the cornerstone of their discography.

Winterheart's Guild vs Reckoning Night: Reckoning Night wins a little more easily. When you put Misplaced and Ain't Your Fairytale against their WHG equivalents Champagne Bath and Silver Tongue, the RN tracks win by a landslide, and then everything else is progressive to some extent, which suits my tastes much more. Shoutout to WHG for having their very best ballads though. Still not sure which song is the better show closer, The Cage or Don't Say A Word. Time for me to brag I got both in one set

Unia vs The Days Of Grays: TDOG wins today. It hit hard when I was 17, and at 27 it hits so much harder. When I'm 37 I'll probably laugh at this assessment again But Unia might win tomorrow, who knows. These albums are basically neck and neck in my house. If you asked me to take one of them to a desert island, I'd probably just ask to take both.

Stones Grow Her Name vs Pariah's Child: Despite my faint praise for PC, it has to win here simply because it doesn't make me groan like 15 times in 50 minutes. I don't really like the "hit" tracks of SGHN - I legit forget Alone In Heaven exists sometimes, Only The Broken Hearts has the dumbest chorus, don't get me started on the other video songs, Losing My Insanity is a great song that has zero place on the main album, and I really don't understand what the single worst Sonata ballad Don't Be Mean is doing on the main album when Tonight I Dance Alone came from the same sessions.

The Ninth Hour vs Talviyo: Since I'm the resident TNH lover, my choice is clear.

"Cold" is emblematic of everything I hate about what Sonata's doing with their sound, Pasi should be banned from the board because the rhythm section in that song is so lifeless and lacks any power imo. It's also not just me (I'm certainly no audiophile), this is definitely one of the more popular criticisms of the band in recent years. You're kind of lucky if it doesn't bother you at all, honestly.

Yeah. I'm ready to cut Pasi *some* slack since it's clearly not his own vision, the rest of the guys have a lot to do with what they want of the sound and I don't think there's a way to do these bad ideas well. But yeah, now that they've chased this "different sound" ghost to its final destination, it's time to bring back just one thing from days of yore, and that's Mikko Karmila on mixing duty.

[The Walrus]

All hail Mikko Karmila.

The only song I don't like on Stones is Don't Be Mean. Like, REALLY? 

[MoraWintersoul]

But I suppose Takatalvi would be more appropriate right now given the weather.

I missed this nerdy joke  Here we're having proper spring, so the most appropriate album is... no Sonata albums!

The only song I don't like on Stones is Don't Be Mean. Like, REALLY? 

Just a baffling moment. That album was written using the "keep it simple, stupid" mantra, so maybe when that song was being made, the mantra short-circuited into "keep it stupid" 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

My ranking:

1. Ecliptica

[MoraWintersoul]

You still haven't heard anything else? Like at least fire up a concert or something! Or listen to Silence, it's basically Ecliptica but done by a band that actually knows what they're doing 

[EPIC Outro]

Ecliptica > Silence

(But not by much. And The End of this Chapter was my first, and still favorite, SA song.)

[Evermind]

Just a baffling moment. That album was written using the "keep it simple, stupid" mantra, so maybe when that song was being made, the mantra short-circuited into "keep it stupid" 

Like you and probably many more people, I'm absolutely baffled that shitshow of a song made it to the album while Tonight I Dance Alone (which is one of my favourite SA ballads) was left as a bonus track.

[The Walrus]

Just a baffling moment. That album was written using the "keep it simple, stupid" mantra, so maybe when that song was being made, the mantra short-circuited into "keep it stupid" 

Like you and probably many more people, I'm absolutely baffled that shitshow of a song made it to the album while Tonight I Dance Alone (which is one of my favourite SA ballads) was left as a bonus track.

I fully agree