King Crimson Appreciation Thread

[The Letter M]

Actually, now that you mention it, the intro to "Octavarium" is pretty damned cool.  I'd forgotten about it.  While a lot of people say it goes on too long and/or is boring, I actually really like it.  So thanks for that.  Yes, that is indeed an example of Jordan actually showing some restraint and playing tastefully.  But I know that a lot of people don't really get into that.  They want the wankery.  I've heard people say that wish they could just skip the intro, and others who've actually made their own edits.

I haven't listened to "The Count of Tuscany" for a while, but I seem to remember it gets really mellow and moody for a while, and I'm sure Jordan is a part of that.  I have to listen to it again.

For what it's worth, I think Jordan has shown quite a bit of restraint, particularly in the more touching ballads like "Through Her Eyes", "Disappear", "Vacant", "The Answer Lies Within", "Far From Heaven" and "Beneath The Surface". I think when he's not soloing, he's doing quite a bit of restraint, especially playing piano and not synth. Rarely does he go crazy on piano alone, although one of the few times I can think of is "Solitary Shell".

I think he chooses which sounds and patches will be his crazy solo ones, so that they stand out, and leaves the piano and other Floydian-synths for the more "mellow and moody" parts. All his parts just seem to FIT, which is what I'd expect from him, and the rest of the band.

-Marc.

[Orbert]

Again, you're probably right.  I don't notice it when he's fitting in.  It's only when he does something I consider too wanky that it stands out, so it seems like it's all the time because those are the only times that catch my attention.  Playing keyboards in a band is a bitch.  It's a support role practically by definition, stay in the background and just plays nice pads and chords, so when he gets the chance to go nuts a little, he does.  I can understand that.

[Sigz]

Totally agree Orbert. He does some super minimalist piano on 'Veneno Para Las Hadas' by Steven Wilson, and it's fucking gorgeous. Unfortunately even his other ballad-y piano work is normally flourished out the ass.

[The Letter M]

Again, you're probably right.  I don't notice it when he's fitting in.  It's only when he does something I consider too wanky that it stands out, so it seems like it's all the time because those are the only times that catch my attention.  Playing keyboards in a band is a bitch.  It's a support role practically by definition, stay in the background and just plays nice pads and chords, so when he gets the chance to go nuts a little, he does.  I can understand that.

I think, if you want something that is a bit less wanky, Neal Morse is a good example. He picks really appropriate sounds, everything between basic piano to Rhodes to searing synths to Mellotron, and his solos aren't has crazy as Jordan's, and not because he can't play nearly as well as him (I'll admit, Neal may not be a Julliard prodigy, but he's pretty damn good), but because he also plays what's appropriate for his songs and music.

I think Neal has a good balance, as well, and his solos aren't too crazy, so he's not labelled as a wanky-player like Jordan often is, but they both really balance their roles in their respective bands. However, it is interesting that, as a solo artist, Neal does use the keyboard quite a lot in his solo albums, but he knows how to balance it pretty well with the other instruments (especially guitar), but with Jordan, as part of a group, his solo spot-lights are a bit less spread out - they're more or less inserted, like "here's where Jordan gets to show off for a bit, then Petrucci, then maybe a bit of Jordan again". Neal weaves his stuff in and out of instruments, and then does a focus on one or the other, while DT just, sometimes, pieces together where Jordan gets to solo.

Not that either way is right or wrong, better or worse, just... different.

-Marc.

[ytserush]

One of my favorite KC tunes.  It was a cool rendition, and obviously Jordan is quite gifted, but I've always thought that I'd enjoy his playing a lot more if he toned it down maybe 20%.  Everything he does, every single note, is just so over-the-top.  Flashy is fine; hell, I grew up with Emerson and Wakeman, but they at least knew how to embellish through contrast.  Jordan never seems able to switch it off.  I can't think of anything he's done that isn't ridiculously over-the-top.

He doesn't go nearly as overboard most of the time on his solo albums. Very tasteful stuff and VERY mellow at times.


I've decided for myself that the guy is pretty much the successor to Keith Emerson. (I keep having fantasies of him hooking up with Carl Palmer to see what would happen.)

I also think Jordan is, for the most part, still heavilly underutilized in Dream Theater.

[Zantera]

I'm a bit interested in checking out King Crimson, for several reasons really. One would be that I really loved Grace For Drowning by Steven Wilson, which is supposedly very KC-influenced. Apart from Steven Wilson I've recently been getting into Dir En Grey, an Avant-Garde metal band that also incorporates some jazz-influences here and there, though perhaps not as much as SW did on Grace For Drowning. My avatar is the cover for Dir En Grey's album "Uroboros" which was actually inspired by a KC-cover, "Lizard" if I'm not mistaken. So this has sorta made me a bit interested in checking out King Crimson, because I really enjoy a bit of jazz and fusion mixed with progressive stuff, so if they are big influence for Steven Wilson, then I feel intrigued.

My KC-history is pretty small. I've checked out "In the Court of the Crimson King" a few years ago. Remember it as being a solid album, but back then my musical preferences were very different, and if I listened to it today I'm pretty sure I would like it more.
However, is it the best starting point or are there other good ones? For those familiar with Grace For Drowning and SW's other KC-influenced work, I'm curious about what KC albums in particular might have influenced him. Since KC has released many albums, I figure there might be differences between different eras and albums, sound-wise.

[Nekov]

Well, to me In The Court of The Crimson King is the best place to start so you should re-visit that record. I prefer to listen to a band from start to end but if you want specific recommendations, I'd go for Red, Lark's Tongues in Aspic and In The Wake Of Poseidon. Those are all from what I call the first Crimson era (though some may argue Lark's and Red are the second era) and probably the ones that influences SW the most.
From Crimson's second era you might go with Discipline and Thrak.

[seasonsinthesky]

ITCOTKC and Red would indeed be the best SW-related starting points, but Lizard is actually in this group as well (it's SW's favourite). however, Lizard is an entirely different beast, and a tough swallow imo, so it really depends on what you end up enjoying about these records. try the first two, and if you enjoy the weirder, more pastoral sides they contain, try Lizard.

probably not a great idea to throw more at you until those ones are done (they take a bit to sink in, as is the nature of the beast!).

[Zantera]

Sounds cool. I think I will start with ITCOTCK, Red and Lizard. 

[darkshade]

All the 70s King Crimson albums are better than Grace For Drowning. Everything after is just too different to compare (though I'd also say The Power To Believe is also better than GFD)

[The Letter M]

All the 70s King Crimson albums are better than Grace For Drowning. Everything after is just too different to compare (though I'd also say The Power To Believe is also better than GFD)

I'll admit, as much as I love Steven Wilson and nearly all of his output (I've enjoyed Storm Corrosion, actually!), I just could not get through GFD all in one listen. I've only heard it ONCE all the way through, and my attention was drifting in and out. Since then, it's been listened in fragments. I would say that the Wetton-Era-Trilogy albums are better than the two SW solo albums, and most of the First Four KC albums are better than SW's solo albums.

I really do love TPTB, and I had hoped for years that the band would continue in a similar direction, but unfortunately, all we've gotten was the ProjeKct last year, which was OK, but too mellow for my tastes.

-Marc.

[Phoenix87x]

I think The Power to Believe may be my favorite KC album, but it fluctuates.

[Pols Voice]

TPTB is my favorite. It seems like a culmination of many of the ideas KC had being working with for decades. Level Five especially just smokes.

[adace]

Live in Argentina 1994 DVD: https://www.dgmlive.com/news.htm?entry=3799

[KevShmev]

All the 70s King Crimson albums are better than Grace For Drowning. 

Call me a Wilson fanboy, but I think Grace for Downing obliterates every King Crimson album from the 70s except for Red.

[The King in Crimson]

All the 70s King Crimson albums are better than Grace For Drowning. 

Call me a Wilson fanboy, but I think Grace for Downing obliterates every King Crimson album from the 70s except for Red.

Okay Wilson fanboy.

[KevShmev]

Heh, have it your way.

But when it comes to King Crimson, I realized I either really love their stuff or I am very ambivalent towards it.  I love Red, Discipline and The Power to Believe all a lot, and if you told me that I could never listen to another song off any other KC album for the rest of my life, I probably wouldn't care.  Sure, there'd be a few songs I'd miss, but gimme those three albums I love and I'd be content.

[The King in Crimson]

Well, I'm biased, Crimson is my favorite 70's prog act.  They're always interesting to me.  Even Islands, which I think sucks, is interesting to a degree.

[ytserush]

All the 70s King Crimson albums are better than Grace For Drowning. 

Call me a Wilson fanboy, but I think Grace for Downing obliterates every King Crimson album from the 70s except for Red.

Okay Wilson fanboy.

Seriously... That stuff (and most King Crimson) is on another plain of existence -- especially live. (and I include Rush in that statement.)

[darkshade]

How about Starless and Bible Black? That album doesn't seem to get the love as much as almost every other KC album. It's in my top 3 (along with Red and TPTB), and contains some of their best songs, not to mention the beautiful Trio; no other improv piece has ever made me shed a tear, EVER.

[Phoenix87x]

Besides the beautiful exceptions of the Night Watch and Trio,  Starless and Bible Black is probably my least favorite KC album.

   just far too many improvised pieces that don't really go anywhere. And from that starting lyric of "health food faggot" I was immediately having doubts about the album and as I progressed further I lost more and more interest.

   I typically have a lot of trouble just making it from beginning to end all the way through.

[darkshade]

The album contains Frakture. One of the band's best pieces.

[Orbert]

"Health food faggot" is a line of its time.  Today you have vegans, before them were vegetarians.  The ones who may have a legitimate reason for the self-imposed food choices they've made, but who are far outnumbered by those who are only into it because it's trendy, and either way, all of us regular folk are sick to death of hearing about it.  People who were into health food were also quite often, ironically, less than healthy-looking.  Their frail appearance put them into the same convenient clichéd box where the gay boys went.  If you were around in the 70's, and were neither into health food nor homosexual, you might bust out laughing every time you heard the line.

I'm not sure why I feel the need to explain it, but it's just the way it is.  In the 80's we had Dire Straits "Money for Nothing" with the line "The little faggot with the earring and the makeup..."  Politically incorrect beyond measure, by today's standards, but in context, acceptable at the time.  Note that both lines are sung by a character and shouldn't be considered the views of the writer, etc.

[Phoenix87x]

^^^

   Putting it in context, it now makes a lot more sense.

Being born 14 years after the album came out, I really wasn't aware of the situation.

It was just kind of Jarring the first time I heard it, but now understanding the back ground, I feel like I can now have an appreciation for it.

[Orbert]

It is jarring.  The first few times I heard it, I did bust out laughing.  Later I thought "Damn, that's harsh."  I totally understand people being put off by it, even offended by it.  But some people think and talk like that. 

[seasonsinthesky]

really dislike most of the vocal pieces on Starless, but a lot of the instrumental material is fairly brilliant. i'll take side 2 over the rest of it every time.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Fracture is a top 5 KC song for me. Every other song is great too, except the title track doesn't do much for me.

[Fluffy Lothario]

I still find it bizarre with Fracture that they left the guy in the crowd calling someone a wanker at the beginning of the track there. I mean, how hard would it really be to remove that, given the performance was professionally recorded?

[The King in Crimson]

really dislike most of the vocal pieces on Starless, but a lot of the instrumental material is fairly brilliant. i'll take side 2 over the rest of it every time.

I'm the exact opposite. 

Side 2 loses me, while Side 1 has some good to great stuff. 

Anyone listen to any of the bonus tracks on the 40th Anniversary release?  Unlike most bonus tracks, I quite liked them and thought they were pretty solid additions.

[crazyaga]

i allways felt like king crimson are very overrated...
they are still a good band though

[MasterShakezula]

Hot damn!

Those first couple minutes of Moonchild may as well be the best (musical) thing to happen in the 60s.

[Pols Voice]

Hot damn!

Those first couple minutes of Moonchild may as well be the best (musical) thing to happen in the 60s.

The last 10 minutes, on the other hand...

[Nel]

Finally bought ITCOTCK today, completing my collection of the remasters (until new remasters come out, of course). Wow, this album actually lived up to all the hype I've heard over the years. It's damn good. It actually makes everything else I've heard from them seem like a downgrade now, though.  Except "In The Wake Of Poseidon", that's still my favorite song by them. But yeah, I love every song on the debut, which I can't say at all for the others.

I'll have to crack into Discipline next. Bought it a month back and haven't heard a note.

So what's released this year? Do they fill in that 70s hole with Larks' Tongues, or do they continue into the 80s with Beat? Both? Or a different album entirely?

[crazyaga]

i allways felt like king crimson are very overrated...
they are still a good band though

Dear Crimson King,
I judged you too fast, and I was wrong.
I am sorry for underrating you for too long. You are amazing.

[Sketchy]

i allways felt like king crimson are very overrated...
they are still a good band though

Dear Crimson King,
I judged you too fast, and I was wrong.
I am sorry for underrating you for too long. You are amazing.

I like this post very much.