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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: The Letter M on March 08, 2019, 11:54:36 AM
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Now that the band have 4 albums under their belts with Mangini, how do you like them compared to the last four they did with Portnoy? Better or worse? And why do you prefer the four you prefer?
For me, this is a tough one. The last four with MP can be a bit of a mixed bag, especially coming after two albums that are beloved by many fans (SFAM and SDOIT). On the other hand, the MM albums have had their misses as well, most notably TA, which has its fans, but more often than not, falls flat for some.
Anyways, I pose this question to you all and I'll think about my own answer over the course of the day...
-Marc.
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Last 4 MP albums.
All 8 albums have their issues of course, but nothing on the Mangini albums can stand next to the best of the last 4 MP albums. I have little desire to listen to TA again outside of a few tracks, and same for DT12, that's a lot of material I have no care for from one of my favorite life long bands, and I place only a little blame on MM for that.
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Hard to say.
As a whole, maybe, the Mangini albums, which are all great. Counting the peaks, Octavarium (the song) can't be beaten and Train of Thought has many great songs too, with the last 2 MP album being not so good (for DT standards of course).
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Option B just by a bit. Octavarium is the saving grace for option A, being that it's easily in my top 3 DT allbums. If it wasn't for 8vm, option B would have won by a landslide!
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Mangini albums, without question. The band sound so much fresher and liberated.
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No contest, those last 4 MP era albums are phenomenal. I think each one has only 1 bad song on each, but come on, A Nightmare to Remember is possibly the best DT song ever, and In the Presence of Enemies is a 25 minute epic when spliced together properly...and all of TOT is amazing.
On the other hand, I have to cherry pick certain songs off of each of the MM era albums, skip almost all of TA, and only DOT is passable.
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Mangini albums, without question. The band sound so much fresher and liberated.
This. And that isn't a knock on those MP albums. They're great. But they don't hold a candle to the 4 most recent albums, IMO, even with Octavarium being the best song on all 8.
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Mangini albums, without question. The band sound so much fresher and liberated.
This. And that isn't a knock on those MP albums. They're great. But they don't hold a candle to the 4 most recent albums, IMO, even with Octavarium being the best song on all 8.
Octavarium being the best song ever. IMHO :biggrin:
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I can respect that. It's not my personal favorite. But it's in my top 3.
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Taken as a whole, the 4 MM-era albums win for me. They sound more inspired and "fun" to me.
Having said that, the high points from the last 4 MP-era albums absolutely stand up to anything from the entire DT catalog (songs like Octavarium and TCOT). It's just that the lows are really bad (to me). These days I almost always skip certain songs like Repentance, A Rite of Passage, The Best of Times, Never Enough, etc.
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Quite easily the late Portnoy albums. Train Of Thought is one of my top 2 albums, the other 3 are all very strong albums too and contain some of DT's best songs.
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I love TOT, like a good chunk of 8V, don't like SC and like BC&SL.
I am ok with (but don't love) ADTOE and DT12, don't like TA and really like D/T.
So, to me, it's the last 4 MP albums, but D/T really narrowed that gap. The band is on the up.
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I have to go with the MM-era 4.
I really like ToT and 8V, the latter of which I might have to move up my list a little after a recent listen sounded really great, but even though I do like SC and BC&SL, they are my two least favorite albums by the band.
ADTOE, outside of a few songs, is not aging as well for me as many of their other albums, but I like DT12, loved most of The Astonishing, and am really like the new record a lot.
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By far the 4 Mangini albums. They sound more tight, more fresh, more inspired. No more awkward vocals. They are all on the top of their games.
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Easily the last 4 MM albums. I'm not a fan of either SC or BCSL, while I really like ADTOE, DT12 and D/T.
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The 4 MM albums. No contest.
Between the last 4 MP albums, I like maybe 1 album's worth of songs. Whereas the MM lineup has released 3 stellar albums and 1 WTF album(TA)
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The 4 MM albums, no question. Those 4 albums + the Big 4 of the MP era albums (IAW, Awake, SFAM and SDOIT) are the best of the DT calatog imo.
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It's very close. I have to go with the last four MP albums, but that could change in a couple weeks as I hear more of DOT and see the live show (two weeks from today!).
TOT and 8VA are great, although each has some down moments (the two MP songs on TOT, IWBY and "Never Enough"). On the other hand, SC and BC&SL have more low moments than high points (esp. SC).
ADTOE has some very high highs but also has a lot of "meh." DT12 is more consistent. It's too early for me to tell with DOT. I like everything so far, but nothing has jumped out as "all time great" and, by the same token, there are no "Repentances" or TBOTs on DOT. Unfortunately, TA really is determinative in a negative way.
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The 4 MM albums by a long chalk for me. So much uninspired stuff on the last 2 Portnoy albums imho. I cant remember the last time I listened to anything from SC and anything bar The Count from BCASL. Decent albums by most bands standards but not DTs.
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It feels pretty close to me at first glance. Each group has a top tier album (ToT & ADTOE), an upper mid-tier album (8VM & DoT), a lower mid-tier album (SC & TA) and a bottom tier album (BC&SL & DT12).
I'd have to give the edge to the MP albums - I think I just about favour the MP album in 3 of those 4 pairings above. The MP albums also have more of my absolute favourite individual DT songs. DoT & TA are lacking songs that would make my top 10 tracks which harms the cause of the MM era.
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Honestly it's about dead even so I had to calculate it a different way.
Astonishing was a major misstep in my mind. BC was a minor misstep. So if you eliminate those albums the Mangini era has two flawless albums, ADTOE and DOT. DT12 is very strong.
While I love the remaining Portnoy albums I would say that SC is flawless and the other two are just very strong. So Mangini era wins by a hair.
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Definitely gonna go with the last 4 MP albums.
While none of them are absolute gems IMO, they do have some spectacular moments. ToT and 8V are probably around the high-mid tier of their discography for me. Not amazing records but the more contemporary rock influences on 8V and the dark and despondent ToT were both relatively untouched sonic directions for the band that, more often than not, paid off.
The misstep on this run of albums is for sure BC&SL, which sits close to the bottom of their discography for me, and is what mainly bogs it down.
The 4 MM albums to me range from bad to "good not great". I've made my thoughts on TA clear at this point: it sits at the very bottom of the ranking for me. The other 3, however, are all low-mid tier in my ranking. ADTOE and DoT are solid but still feel a bit like DT by numbers to an extent, despite some pretty good songs on both. I feel almost the same about DT12, except for its abysmal production.
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Dang this is tougher than I would have thought. MM-era but not by a whole lot.
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Just because it is tough doesn't mean there isn't a correct answer.
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I love the 4 Mangini albums but I went with the last 4 MP records (testament to how much I love this band's discography). 5 of my top 10 DT songs are on the last 4 MP albums - Stream of Consciousness, In The Name of God, Octavarium, In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany.
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This is easy for me.
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Very easy for me as well. I'll take the Mangini era over the late Portnoy era any day of the week!
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This was tough for me too, but the last 4 MM-era albums are way more consistent... some of those MP-era albums have songs that I don't plan on listening to ever again (on 8VM and SC), even though I like the majority of the songs on those MP albums.
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Oh, very easy! 4MM
The 4 MPs are the worst DT discs in my raking.
I think 8V is an ok record, with an amazing title track.
TOT has aged very poorly. My contempt for the album is increasing. That's a progressive caricature in my book. The worst legacy in the DT history.
SC and BCSL: need to comment?
The 4 MM:
ADTOE is in my top 5.
DT12 and TA aren't in top 5, but are very solid albums.
D/T too early to ranking, but very strong album.
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As much as I like Octavarium and Tater ToT, Imma have to go with the last 4 MM albums. The Astonishing, d/t/DoT, and ADToE are all fantastic records and DT12 is okay.
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It seems like there are more people picking the 4 MM-era albums than I imagined, and it's a majority of the votes as well.
I am still deciding which set of four I would pick, to be honest, though the more and more I listen to d/t, the more I love it, and I already really love ADTOE, as well as most of DT12. Of the four MM-era albums, that's nearly 55% of the music from that era that I really love and would listen to any day of the week. In the four MP-era albums, I'd say I really love about 80% of the music, but there's about 40 minutes less music (since TA was a double). I think not really getting into TA really lands a blow to the MM-era for me so far, but it could be that I come back to it in a few years and fall in love with it.
As it stands, I think I am leaning slight more towards the MP albums, but the MM ones have their own charm and style that has grown on me since 2011.
-Marc.
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My top individual songs for each era:
MM-era:
BAI
S2n
IT
AWE
ONW
STR
TPTD
R137
BW
BITS
FinalMP-era
ITPOE2
These Walls
PA
8VM
Vacant
SoC
TROAE
ITPOE1
ES
AIA
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As much as I hate to vote against Octavarium, it’s the only album of the final for MP era DT records in the top half of my rankings.
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Impossible list because there’s great and not so great on that list. Out of those 8 albums, this is how I’d rate them:
1. Octavarium (even if I walk Beside You is in my top 3 worst DT songs list)
2. TOT
3. DOT
4. ADTOE
5. BC&SL
6. DT12
7. SC.
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124191636. TA
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MM by far
The last 4 MP are at the bottom of my rankings, together with FII and WDADU
There are 2 great songs ( octavarium and in the name of god), one nice ballad (vacant) and a great solo (tbot).
All the rest for me it's totally unispired
On the other hand, I love TA and ADTOE, and also DT and D/T as a whole are better than any of the 4 last MPs, even without peaks.
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Option A easily;
TOT and 8VM are primo, ALMOST top of their game Dream Theater.
BC&SL is a fine album. Cheesy as hell, but fun. Nightmare is fun, Tuscany is fun, Best of Times is fun. Very prog. Yes, it’s not their finest artistic achievement but I don’t think this album is as offensively terrible as some others seems to think.
SC is weak but Constant Motion is probably one of the best straight rockers they’ve ever done.
On the other hand we have option B; ADTOE, great album, contains their best ballads and BAI, and great instrumental interludes
D12- extremely weak, Surrender to Reason is okay, Along for the Ride is easily their worst song they’ve ever done, terrible production
TA- maybe 20 minutes of decent music rendered unlistenable buried in a silly concept, bad lyrics
D/T- some good moments, but very short, haven’t fully digested it yet but not digging it as much most fans
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This is a really good question. I can't decide right now. I'll have to think about it and perhaps listen to all those albums black to black :huh:
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Hands down the last 4 DT albums have been the best of their career for me. ADTOE got me back into the band like never before.
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It always seemed to me that the band were "running out of fuel" as it were during the end of the MP era in some ways. Not ever since MM came on board. (btw: the tour for TOT was the last of the MP era tours I attended back in the day, the first tour I attended after he left was the DT12 tour, for this exact reason.) And yes, ADTOE was a great restart for me as well. My favourite DT album to date.
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MM by a country mile.
I love all 4 MM albums and still a big fan of TA, which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, there is pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it. DT (self-titled) is heavily underrated too, and aged well for me - with better dynamics, would be really great. ADTOE and D/T are fantastic.
The other 4 are not in the same class IMO. TOT is fine, but to be honest, with age I only listen to AIA and ITNOG. 8V is incredibly overrated in my book, and I honestly feel people give a pass to it as they like the title track. There is so much filler on this one, and while I quite like SS and the title track (although not as much as others), I don’t think I’ve actively gone out of my way to listen to anything else from it for ages. SC was ok, but BCASL was their biggest misfire I believe. I think these last 3 albums all suffer from the same issue- one big decent epic, with a whole bunch of filler to make up the rest. Some nice moments of course, but some big misses such as repentance and MP’s increasing vocals...
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big fan of TA,which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it.
Exactly. My 68 minute Astonishing Abridged is as good as anything in their catalog.
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I’m actually shocked that the MP albums are doing that well, I thought it’d be 5-1 or so.
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I'm probably one of the only people who'll say that the strongest pull towards the MP albums (from this selection) for me is Systematic Chaos, which I think is one of their best albums.
Octavarium has quite a few gems on it too, well, all the albums have their gems. But on the whole, MM era albums are a lot more consistent for me overall.
BC&SL is what really brings the MP era down for me, and the fact that it's the last one they released with him, at that point, I was a little concerned about where the band was going musically, so every album they released since has been a comforting reassurance.
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I love Portnoy but The MM albums are better than the final 4 Portnoy IMO. I think D/T is by far the best of the 8 and the TA is next in line.
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But on the whole, MM era albums are a lot more consistent for me overall.
BC&SL is what really brings the MP era down for me, and the fact that it's the last one they released with him, at that point, I was a little concerned about where the band was going musically...
Mike put some completely unnecessary hype and expectations on BC&SL. While it has some great moments, that's what it is: an album of moments and not one of great songs. I was still a huge fan at the time, and saw them put on an amazing club show during their tour with Maiden. But I also wondered where the band was going from there, and how much I would enjoy being along for that journey.
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I saw that tour in Worcester, and I noted that the band looked really happy.
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MP: one top-tier album (TOT), three very inconsistent albums with some great songs (8VM, SS, TW, ITPOE, Forsaken, TMOLS, TCOT)
MM: one top tier album (DoT), one very good and consistent album (ADTOE) and one really weak album (DT). TA doesn't click with me but has a few songs I really enjoy.
In the end MP wins mainly because of the higher highs (individual songs).
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While it has some great moments, that's what it is: an album of moments and not one of great songs.
That's basically my problem with those four late Portnoy-era albums in a nutshell. They all have really great moments, but what they don't have all that often is complete songs that are overall as enjoyable as these moments (the Octavarium album with its more concise, poppy approach fares best). This is why I never agreed with the "they've run out of steam" comments - they still had great ideas, after all. I just feel that the way those were shaped into songs wasn't as successful as earlier. For various reasons I've long felt that this kind of mis-direction was mostly Portnoy's doing and the Mangini-era albums certainly seem to support my interpretation. I may not like every song they wrote since, but I can't remember the last time I felt that some section of a song was amazing and worth listening to while I didn't really like the song as a whole, whereas this was becoming the norm after Six Degrees.
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big fan of TA,which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it.
Exactly. My 68 minute Astonishing Abridged is as good as anything in their catalog.
That's just it though. If you have to abridge the full album by essentially trimming it down by half, is the full experience really that great?
I don't say this to attack or demean anyone who enjoys the album, but I'd like to know your take on that. Even as my least favorite DT album, I can admit it has its moments. To me there's perhaps 30 or 40 minutes of decent DT material in there. But the full album experience (which I would venture the band intended for it to be listened to in that way) is so incredibly lackluster to me, that despite it's good moments, I simply can't ignore the fact that the remaining hour or so exists.
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MP: one top-tier album (TOT), three very inconsistent albums with some great songs (8VM, SS, TW, ITPOE, Forsaken, TMOLS, TCOT)
MM: one top tier album (DoT), one very good and consistent album (ADTOE) and one really weak album (DT). TA doesn't click with me but has a few songs I really enjoy.
In the end MP wins mainly because of the higher highs (individual songs).
I agree. There’s more memorable songs in MP’s last 4 than MM’s.
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big fan of TA,which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it.
Exactly. My 68 minute Astonishing Abridged is as good as anything in their catalog.
That's just it though. If you have to abridge the full album by essentially trimming it down by half, is the full experience really that great?
I don't say this to attack or demean anyone who enjoys the album, but I'd like to know your take on that. Even as my least favorite DT album, I can admit it has its moments. To me there's perhaps 30 or 40 minutes of decent DT material in there. But the full album experience (which I would venture the band intended for it to be listened to in that way) is so incredibly lackluster to me, that despite it's good moments, I simply can't ignore the fact that the remaining hour or so exists.
Well, look, Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time, but honestly, only half of 6D's, BC&SL, and DT12 really interest me, with less than half of 8V and FII doing the same.
Trimming the fat doesn't necessarily demean the album.
Not being able to listen to TA has less to do with the quality than it does to it's length. I love the album. And like every album I have ever heard, I like some songs better than others. There's no song on TA that I dislike.
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Not being able to listen to TA has less to do with the quality than it does to it's length. I love the album. And like every album I have ever heard, I like some songs better than others. There's no song on TA that I dislike.
Gotcha. In that case I can see where you're coming from. Closest I could relate is with an album like Soundtracks for the Blind, a pretty lengthy album that I enjoy almost all of, just that I seldom have the time to listen to the entire thing.
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Soundtracks For The Blind?
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Soundtracks For The Blind?
Soundtracks For The Blind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundtracks_for_the_Blind)
-Marc.
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Ok, thanks Marc.
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Mike put some completely unnecessary hype and expectations on BC&SL. While it has some great moments, that's what it is: an album of moments and not one of great songs. I was still a huge fan at the time, and saw them put on an amazing club show during their tour with Maiden. But I also wondered where the band was going from there, and how much I would enjoy being along for that journey.
I actually was a little out of the loop when it came out, I had already considered them my favorite band at the time, but I was just in the process of properly discovering them, so I was like, "Wait, DT released a new album this year?" So I saw none of that Portnoy hype. For me, the hype came purely from DT being DT, and like I said, the fact that I really loved Systematic Chaos.
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D/T has rekindled my interest in DT and is for me their best/most consistent album since Octavarium, but the ones in between vary greatly in quality, with DT12 being my least favourite. If I were to arrange them in tiers it would look something like this:
TOT
8VM
D/T
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SC
BC&SL
ADTOE
TA
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DT12
So the MP albums win.
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big fan of TA,which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it.
Exactly. My 68 minute Astonishing Abridged is as good as anything in their catalog.
That's just it though. If you have to abridge the full album by essentially trimming it down by half, is the full experience really that great?
I don't say this to attack or demean anyone who enjoys the album, but I'd like to know your take on that. Even as my least favorite DT album, I can admit it has its moments. To me there's perhaps 30 or 40 minutes of decent DT material in there. But the full album experience (which I would venture the band intended for it to be listened to in that way) is so incredibly lackluster to me, that despite it's good moments, I simply can't ignore the fact that the remaining hour or so exists.
I agree with TAC that it can just be due to length, as I like pretty much most of the album too. But it can also be the fact that as by now we know the story, I don’t need things like the nomad tracks, whispers on the wind etc. to piece the story together - I can actually go more to the songs I enjoy the most - which for me is stil over a solid hour of music, and actually longer than D/T. That’s not to diminish the quality of D/T as I love it, but just to suggest there is a heap of music to listen to for me on TA, even trimming the fat a bit. It’s also probably why I struggled with BCASL bar the Count and the Beautiful Agony section of ANTR - with only 6 songs, there wasn’t much wiggle room of some of those songs didn’t resonate.
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It always seemed to me that the band were "running out of fuel" as it were during the end of the MP era in some ways. Not ever since MM came on board. (btw: the tour for TOT was the last of the MP era tours I attended back in the day, the first tour I attended after he left was the DT12 tour, for this exact reason.) And yes, ADTOE was a great restart for me as well. My favourite DT album to date.
Other than The Astonishing (which I've warmed up to a lot more since it came out) I really enjoy the post Portnoy albums. So for me it wasn't the band running out of steam but perhaps it was Portnoy himself who was running out of steam.
I love all 4 MM albums and still a big fan of TA,which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it.
From what I've seen, the length of the album did not divide the fan base. It was the music. Any fan can put together a 2-hour playlist of Dream Theater songs and be perfectly happy.
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It always seemed to me that the band were "running out of fuel" as it were during the end of the MP era in some ways. Not ever since MM came on board. (btw: the tour for TOT was the last of the MP era tours I attended back in the day, the first tour I attended after he left was the DT12 tour, for this exact reason.) And yes, ADTOE was a great restart for me as well. My favourite DT album to date.
Other than The Astonishing (which I've warmed up to a lot more since it came out) I really enjoy the post Portnoy albums. So for me it wasn't the band running out of steam but perhaps it was Portnoy himself who was running out of steam.
I love all 4 MM albums and still a big fan of TA,which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it.
From what I've seen, the length of the album did not divide the fan base. It was the music. Any fan can put together a 2-hour playlist of Dream Theater songs and be perfectly happy.
Sure.
It's an album full of disney-like/musical-like/ballads for a bunch of metalheads.
If there's one thing I've learned in the world of Heavy Metal is that ballads are our enemies. :lol
It doesn't work.
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Sure.
It's an album full of disney-like/musical-like/ballads for a bunch of metalheads.
If there's one thing I've learned in the world of Heavy Metal is that ballads are our enemies. :lol
It doesn't work.
I do not know if you are serious or if you are joking.
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Mangini era easily..... it has my favorite album of theirs and the others are good too, nothing that I would skip if it came up.
Portnoy era has one of my favorite songs, Octavarium, but taken as a whole does not hold a candle to the MM era. There are quite a few songs from that era that I don't really care for and might reach for the skip button.
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I love all 4 MM albums and still a big fan of TA,which I can’t really believe divided people so much. So what if it’s long - in the day and age of playlists, pretty easy solution. There is so much great music amongst it.
From what I've seen, the length of the album did not divide the fan base. It was the music. Any fan can put together a 2-hour playlist of Dream Theater songs and be perfectly happy.
[/quote]
I think the 2 biggest criticisms I heard constantly about TA were - 1. People weren't on board with the Disney/Rock Opera vocals, and 2. The album length. I have actually heard the album length bought up a fair bit, which always baffled me a little.
No dramas if people didn't like the style of music - it was definitely my cup of tea, and I felt a pretty natural progression that they may try something a little rock opera. Listening to stuff like Avantasia which is terrific, I honestly sometimes wonder what it would have sounded like with other singers to play characters. Could really have been something out of the box. However, I also understand that this is not for everyone and that's cool. But the album length thing I always felt was just a really easy solve in this day and age, and rare that I wouldn't skip something on every album in existence that I enjoy.
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I think the 2 biggest criticisms I heard constantly about TA were - 1. People weren't on board with the Disney/Rock Opera vocals, and 2. The album length. I have actually heard the album length bought up a fair bit, which always baffled me a little.
No dramas if people didn't like the style of music - it was definitely my cup of tea, and I felt a pretty natural progression that they may try something a little rock opera. Listening to stuff like Avantasia which is terrific, I honestly sometimes wonder what it would have sounded like with other singers to play characters. Could really have been something out of the box. However, I also understand that this is not for everyone and that's cool. But the album length thing I always felt was just a really easy solve in this day and age, and rare that I wouldn't skip something on every album in existence that I enjoy.
For me, album length is not a problem. I often go through phases where I listen to a bunch of albums from one band. If I love the music then MOAR is always a good thing.
For Dream Theater, it would be weird to put out an album with different singers after having LaBrie singing all these songs all these years. This would create ammo for people who think the band would be better off without LaBrie.
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As much as I love The Astonishing, Dramatic Turn and Distance (and like DT12), it is clearly the first option for me. Octavarium is the masterpiece that got me into DT and, following that, basically every prog album I know. So that album is very special to me.
Black Clouds also has a special place in my life, because of reasons I stated in the Black Clouds thread.
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If someone asks me "whats the 2 best DT albums?" I would say I&W and Awake. But what do I listen to most nowdays? D/T, TA and FII.
I got into DT when Awake was relesead and I listened constantly to I&W and Awake, almost crazy much.
Great albums? yeah!
Nostalgia? sure
The only albums I never listen to is BC&SL and WDADU.
So what´s the point of this post, no idea... :)
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For me it is clearly the MM Albums, even if DT12 did not stand the test of time for my ears
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I scored each album out of 5 -
TOT - 4
8VM - 5
SC - 2
BC&SL - 1
ADTOE - 4
DT12 - 2
TA - 0
d/t - 5
That's 12 for the MP albums, and 11 for the MM albums. Which is a slight shame, because if you ignore TA, the MM albums would have a higher average score.
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MM group.
ADTOE, DT12 and TA are (with I&W and SFAM) inside my top 5 DT records, and I won't even rank D/T yet 'cause I want to just enjoy it for a couple of years before applying reason and criticism to it.
On the other hand, to my tastes of course, TOT is a great focused album (and I suspect that's how I'm gonna consider D/T down the line), SC a pretty good funny album, Octavarium is two great songs, BC&SL my least favourite DT album.
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I think the 2 biggest criticisms I heard constantly about TA were - 1. People weren't on board with the Disney/Rock Opera vocals, and 2. The album length. I have actually heard the album length bought up a fair bit, which always baffled me a little.
No dramas if people didn't like the style of music - it was definitely my cup of tea, and I felt a pretty natural progression that they may try something a little rock opera. Listening to stuff like Avantasia which is terrific, I honestly sometimes wonder what it would have sounded like with other singers to play characters. Could really have been something out of the box. However, I also understand that this is not for everyone and that's cool. But the album length thing I always felt was just a really easy solve in this day and age, and rare that I wouldn't skip something on every album in existence that I enjoy.
For me, album length is not a problem. I often go through phases where I listen to a bunch of albums from one band. If I love the music then MOAR is always a good thing.
For Dream Theater, it would be weird to put out an album with different singers after having LaBrie singing all these songs all these years. This would create ammo for people who think the band would be better off without LaBrie.
Yea, I think you’re right. Definitely would be a little odd, and I’m actually a huge James fan, really enjoying his solo works too. And I think James put in a magnificent performance. As for the ammo, I think those crew would be there regardless, just read YouTube comments haha ;D
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From what I've seen, the length of the album did not divide the fan base. It was the music. Any fan can put together a 2-hour playlist of Dream Theater songs and be perfectly happy.
I think the length of album worked against them in this respect: a 2-hour album is a big mountain to climb, and if you aren't digging it 1/4 of the way through, it is tough to make yourself listen to all of the rest multiple times to see if it grows on you. I can't count how many negative reviews of TA I saw where the listener admitted that they only listened to it once or twice, or some cases never made it through the first listen. On the flip side, if you have a 45-minute album you are not wild about at first, you are more likely to give it more chances because it is more easily digestible.
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From what I've seen, the length of the album did not divide the fan base. It was the music. Any fan can put together a 2-hour playlist of Dream Theater songs and be perfectly happy.
I think the length of album worked against them in this respect: a 2-hour album is a big mountain to climb, and if you aren't digging it 1/4 of the way through, it is tough to make yourself listen to all of the rest multiple times to see if it grows on you. I can't count how many negative reviews of TA I saw where the listener admitted that they only listened to it once or twice, or some cases never made it through the first listen. On the flip side, if you have a 45-minute album you are not wild about at first, you are more likely to give it more chances because it is more easily digestible.
Another option could've been to release TA part 1 first (disc 1) and then part 2 a few months later, so people could have time to digest the first album for a while before the 2nd was released.
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From what I've seen, the length of the album did not divide the fan base. It was the music. Any fan can put together a 2-hour playlist of Dream Theater songs and be perfectly happy.
I think the length of album worked against them in this respect: a 2-hour album is a big mountain to climb, and if you aren't digging it 1/4 of the way through, it is tough to make yourself listen to all of the rest multiple times to see if it grows on you. I can't count how many negative reviews of TA I saw where the listener admitted that they only listened to it once or twice, or some cases never made it through the first listen. On the flip side, if you have a 45-minute album you are not wild about at first, you are more likely to give it more chances because it is more easily digestible.
This is my issue. I have very little opportunity to listen to 121 straight minutes of music (whether it be The Astonishing or all of I&W + SFAM). Every time I've listened to TA, it's been in 20-30 minute chunks, and it loses cohesiveness as a result. That's why I generally don't include it when I rank DT's albums. I have a few 3+ hour plane trips coming up in the next few months, so I'm going to give it a try then.
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This is my issue. I have very little opportunity to listen to 121 straight minutes of music (whether it be The Astonishing or all of I&W + SFAM). Every time I've listened to TA, it's been in 20-30 minute chunks, and it loses cohesiveness as a result. That's why I generally don't include it when I rank DT's albums. I have a few 3+ hour plane trips coming up in the next few months, so I'm going to give it a try then.
Yeah, it's a tough one. I love it, and I can happily listen to it all the way through, but for me, that musical journey is just that, a journey, a story, it's like listening to a radio play, or a musical, or even a symphony, I love every musical moment of it, but my brain can't accept it as a "rock album", or a collection of songs. Musically, I think it's one of their best efforts, but at the same time, I'd be hard pressed to say that it has my favorite songs on it, when many of those tracks I'd barely even classify as "songs". So ranking it with the likes of Octavarium, or DT12, or heck, even compared to Scenes From A Memory, doesn't feel cohesive. It's like ranking a comic book among a set of novels, it's almost a different medium.
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As far as I see it each option has 2 great albums and 2 lesser albums. DT12 is easily my least favorite out of them all and the Astonishing doesn't get played often since it requires a 2 hour sit down so it's last 4 MP for me.
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Given some of the discussion on the last couple of pages, I will elaborate on my response.
The reason I chose the MM albums, and the reason ADTOE and DT12 rank as my overall #3 and #4 in the DT discography, is because those albums are just SO much more consistent than anything in the DT discography, and d/t seems to follow in that same vein as well even though I am not yet sure where I would rank it. There may be higher highs on some of the earlier albums. And I think it is perfectly valid to take that into consideration and rank the albums according to that. But for me, I just value the consistency more highly. I can say that on ADTOE, DT12, and d/t, there isn't a single song that I want to skip or that makes me tune out. I cannot say that for the 4 albums that preceded this run.
Here's a bit of a breakdown by album:
TOT:
-Really high highs: SOC, ITNOG. Maybe Vacant
-Really low lows: I wouldn't say there are any "really low lows" on this album. But I don't really care to listen to the other tracks besides the three I mention above. ES and TDS, for example, have some awesome moments and are "near misses" simply because they are too long and meandering, and have some parts that just seem too out of nowhere, even for DT.
-Consistency: Perhaps the closest to "consistent" of this run of albums, but still leaves me wanting in the consistency department.
Octavarium:
-Really high highs: I would put Panic Attack, Sacrificed Sons, and the title song in this category. TROAE and TW are both very good. Never Enough is pretty good too.
-Really low lows: TALW really drags the album down for me. IWBY isn't "bad," but it isn't something I can say I "enjoy" revisiting either.
-Consistency: Probably about "typical" for DT. I like most of it, but there are a couple of songs I don't connect with.
SC:
-Really high highs: Forsaken and CM for sure. ITPOE is close. And TDEN is very fun.
-Really low lows: POW, with TMOLS close behind. And while I think Reptentence is, overall, a very good song with a brilliant concept, it doesn't have much replay value for me.
-Consistency: Very inconsistent album with some songs I REALLY enjoy.
BCSL:
-Really high highs: ANTR. TSF and TCOT are really good too, even if they aren't quite on the same level. AROP isn't bad.
-Really low lows: Wither and TBOT. Not "bad" songs by any stretch, but songs I don't really connect with and don't desire to listen to.
-Consistency: Inconsistent. There are some great moments. The problem is that you have almost all really long songs, so if there are things that don't connect, it can drag a whole song, which is one of only six, down.
ADTOE:
-Really high highs: Outcry, Bridges in the Sky, Beneath the Surface
-Really low lows: None. BAI is the closest, but even that isn't bad.
-Consistency: INCREDIBLY consistent.
DT12:
-Really high highs: AFTR, BTV, Illumination Theory
-Really low lows: None.
-Consistency: INCREDIBLY consistent.
TA:
-Really high highs: Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect, Moment of Betrayal
-Really low lows: Losing Faythe. Some others as well, but I still hesitate to call them "really low lows." There really isn't a "You Not Me" on this album.
-Consistency: Hard to rank because of (1) its nature as a single, coherent piece, where all of the parts are integral to the whole. Like SFAM, the whole is generally greater than the sum of the parts. But it does feel inconsistent, mainly due to Act I being a lot stronger than Act II.
d/t:
-Really high highs: AWE, Paralyzed
-Really low lows: None.
-Consistency: INCREDIBLY consistent.
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The 4 MM albums crush the last 4 MP albums in my opinion. Of the 4 MP albums the only one I go back to aside from a few small sections of songs is Octavarium. The 4 MM albums are all fantastic, and while none are perfect, I find them much more enjoyable to listen to and they are all at the top of my overall album rankings.
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As someone who voted for the 4 MP albums, I will agree that the MM are on the whole at least more consistent. ADTOE and D/T have their hiccups, but are fairly solid all around. SC and BC&SL have some pretty high highs but also some fairly awful moments as well.
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From what I've seen, the length of the album did not divide the fan base. It was the music. Any fan can put together a 2-hour playlist of Dream Theater songs and be perfectly happy.
I think the length of album worked against them in this respect: a 2-hour album is a big mountain to climb, and if you aren't digging it 1/4 of the way through, it is tough to make yourself listen to all of the rest multiple times to see if it grows on you. I can't count how many negative reviews of TA I saw where the listener admitted that they only listened to it once or twice, or some cases never made it through the first listen. On the flip side, if you have a 45-minute album you are not wild about at first, you are more likely to give it more chances because it is more easily digestible.
Ah yes. That's a good point and now that I think about it, that explains why I rarely listened to the album and only started to warm up to it like a year and a half after it came out.
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Octavarium is my #1 Dream Theater album of all time. But I still have to choose the MM albums.
SC is the worst DT album by a pretty wide margin...and that margin is followed by BCSL. That’s just too big of a “drag factor” to overcome.
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Just listened to DT12 again last night, and man it's incredibly strong. The song-writing is impeccable, nothing wasted. If only that snare sounded like a snare. But yeah, ADTOE, DT12, and TA are all excellent and DoT is at least very good, so a very easy call despite my love for songs like Octavarium, ITNOG, etc.
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This was tough, but I went with the MM albums. Close call though.
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I think for me I have to go with the last 4 MM albums. Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds just haven't aged well for me, even though both albums have great moments on them. I just feel that the last 4 albums with MM have been way more consistent. I've been a fan since '92, and so that early Roadrunner era was just... not for me. I still went and saw them live on both of those tours though, because I wanted to support the band. But I prefer their current sound, by far. Can't wait to see them on this tour!
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Kind of a mixed bag for me.
I voted Last 4 MP albums. That's the point where I started listening to DT, so I guess it's first impressions and all. I know it's not popular on here, but SC is my favorite DT album, with TOT trailing close behind.
Despite this, BCSL is not my favorite of those 4. Maybe it's just me and the frame of mind I was in personally at the time (a very low point, trust me), but even on my first listen BCSL just seemed like a "final shot with the old formula(s)" kind of album and that a personnel shift was inevitable, almost like something had to give somewhere. I was saddened for a long time when MP left, but I am long over it now.
Fully agree that the 1st 4 MM albums have the band feeling fresher overall. D/T is my favorite new album of theirs and I feel like things can only go up from here. In fact, I seriously doubt we'd even have a D/T if MP was still in the band, let alone anything remotely close.