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Dream Theater => Concerts and Set Lists => Topic started by: 2Timer on March 11, 2014, 05:54:00 PM
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I am disappointed beyond belief. My son is 14, I bought us tickets for his first DT show; all he had to do was not get in trouble at school for 2 more weeks. He's been told not to take his ipod to school, but he did today, and got caught with it, so he has detention. Therefore, no concert for him. I don't think he has a clue how much this upsets me.
So I want to tell him to shoot for the next leg, but I want to make sure it's going to happen before I say anything to him.
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I feel pretty positive in thinking that there will be a second US leg. DT has histotically done this. The question is where you are based, because DT may not necessarily come through the same cities on the second leg (such as Seattle as an example).
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I feel pretty positive in thinking that there will be a second US leg. DT has histotically done this. The question is where you are based, because DT may not necessarily come through the same cities on the second leg (such as Seattle as an example).
You shouldn't feel very positive at all. "Historically"...Mike Portnoy was at the helm and he stirred the drink. Its much different now. Less shows, less changes in the set list. Different venues. They have not played Connecticut since Portnoy left the band and that sucks for me!
I would actually be a bit surprised if their was a second U.S. leg. I hope I am wrong, but to me it seems more likely it will not happen than it will.
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I'd say it's pretty likely. Though, as has been said, it might hit a different set of cities.
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There has not been an announcement, so the only information we have for sure at this point is that there is only one. Personally, I think there will be a second. But until something is announced, that's all we have to go on.
On a side note, for what it's worth, I think the uncertainty makes the discipline more effective. Personally, I wouldn't promise him anything. I think the message should be, "You blew it. You don't get to go. If there ends up being a second leg, we can revisit the issue again down the road. If there isn't one, and you don't get to see this tour at all, sorry, but that's your own fault."
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I'm hoping there is a second leg, although I am seeing them on this upcoming leg. On a slightly different note, while I certainly agree with your punishment for breaking a rule, I did not realize that some schools banned iPods. When I was in high school about 6-7 years ago, we simply weren't allowed to use them in class. We could use them freely at lunch or during study halls.
Was he given detention for having it, or for using it during class? I could see why the rules have changed since an "iPod" could so easily be an iPhone or be used for taking photos of tests, etc.
Sorry to hear about the situation you are put in 2Timer.
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The only time in recent memory DT didn't do 2 US legs was for BC&SL (unless you count the Maiden tour). It's extremely likely.
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The only time in recent memory DT didn't do 2 US legs was for BC&SL (unless you count the Maiden tour). It's extremely likely.
Yes, this.
Also, JP (or JLB) said that this tour would be going into 2015.
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The only time in recent memory DT didn't do 2 US legs was for BC&SL (unless you count the Maiden tour). It's extremely likely.
Yes, this.
Also, JP (or JLB) said that this tour would be going into 2015.
Did they say this in an article? Link?
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I don't have time to go through all of the interviews, but a couple of weeks ago, a bunch came out. They were all posted on the DT Side. It may have been James when asked about a solo tour, and he said something like it wouldn't be a possibility until into 2015.
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The only time in recent memory DT didn't do 2 US legs was for BC&SL (unless you count the Maiden tour). It's extremely likely.
Since I saw DT as an opening act and a headliner during the Maiden tour, I do indeed count it as a second leg.
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With MP gone, it's certainly more up in the air as to how long the tour will last, and what regions of the world will be included. However, if the Dramatic Tour is any indication, it seems likely that they'll do a second run through North America. But as was mentioned already, there's no guarantee that the same cities will be played (aside from perhaps the big ones, such as Los Angeles, Chicago and New York) nor that they'll be Evening With shows.
Generally, when DT did Evening With tours in the past, they'd do one leg in North America in the Evening With format, and then another leg as part of a package, co-headlining (with Satch in 2002, with Megadeth in 2005) or opening (for Yes in 2004). But again, with MP not directing things, it's hard to say what they'll do until the dates are announced.
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You should take him anyways.
You are introducing a negative stimuli, which does not necessarily cause him to reflect on his actions. In a few years when he will be legal adult, he will be able to go to a DT show even if he behaves poorly. What you want to do rarely succeeds in conditioning behavior because he does not understand WHY what he did was wrong and the reasoning as to why he should not do it again. If you do not take him, he is likely to just get angry and as he gets older, he will rebel. It's a common mistake to use negative reinforcement to educate kids. It is much better to try to explain the reasoning in the hopes of getting them to consciously choose not to repeat the behavior. That's the most effective form of discipline because generally, if the child reasons and concludes that they should not bring an iPod to school for a valid logical reason, then they are highly unlikely to do it again. Otherwise they will just feel that they are treated unfairly and will aspire to rebel and live moments of youth when they get older.
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You should take him anyways.
You are introducing a negative stimuli, which does not necessarily cause him to reflect on his actions. In a few years when he will be legal adult, he will be able to go to a DT show even if he behaves poorly. What you want to do rarely succeeds in conditioning behavior because he does not understand WHY what he did was wrong and the reasoning as to why he should not do it again. If you do not take him, he is likely to just get angry and as he gets older, he will rebel. It's a common mistake to use negative reinforcement to educate kids. It is much better to try to explain the reasoning in the hopes of getting them to consciously choose not to repeat the behavior. That's the most effective form of discipline because generally, if the child reasons and concludes that they should not bring an iPod to school for a valid logical reason, then they are highly unlikely to do it again. Otherwise they will just feel that they are treated unfairly and will aspire to rebel and live moments of youth when they get older.
While I both agree and disagree with points you have made, it is not our place to tell 2Timer how to parent and disclipine his child. If the thread was in General Discussion and said, "How should I disclipline my child?" there would be no problem with your post.
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In that case, as others have said, it isn't guaranteed. Since they are doing a second European leg, I strongly suspect there will be a second NA leg too, just probably in different cities.
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Also, the fact that the headlining shows on the 2nd European Leg are Evening With suggests that IF there's a second American leg then they will be too.
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When, specifically, do you guys think they will play in the more rarer areas (Asia, Australia, South America) to play concerts at (if it happens)?
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Any shows in Asia I think will come in May/June. South America in August/ Sept. Not sure where Australia/NZ would fit at the moment.
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You should take him anyways.
You are introducing a negative stimuli, which does not necessarily cause him to reflect on his actions. In a few years when he will be legal adult, he will be able to go to a DT show even if he behaves poorly. What you want to do rarely succeeds in conditioning behavior because he does not understand WHY what he did was wrong and the reasoning as to why he should not do it again. If you do not take him, he is likely to just get angry and as he gets older, he will rebel. It's a common mistake to use negative reinforcement to educate kids. It is much better to try to explain the reasoning in the hopes of getting them to consciously choose not to repeat the behavior. That's the most effective form of discipline because generally, if the child reasons and concludes that they should not bring an iPod to school for a valid logical reason, then they are highly unlikely to do it again. Otherwise they will just feel that they are treated unfairly and will aspire to rebel and live moments of youth when they get older.
I really like this post. However, the 'why not take it to school'...just Sunday night I told him about a warning letter that all parents got in the mail last week stating that during the week of achievement tests, there is an actual 'law' against having anything with a camera in his possession in the school. It carries a minimum fine of $750. I just told him this 2 days before he broke the rule!
Bosk, most of me agrees and wants to go the way you mentioned. That was actually my plan the minute he told me about it last night, but I'm looking into different forms of punishment right now. I've already taken the ipod away from him during hours that I can't be around him. I take it to work so he can't take it school, and so on. I've also banned him from the internet and his Xbox 360 for 2 weeks.
Thanks, everyone, for your input. And while Shadow is right in saying no one should tell me how to raise/discipline my child, the way I worded the post was more or less asking for advice to begin with. I love him more than anything, but I don't feel I'm that great of a parent, so I love hearing all kinds of advice. Please don't ever stop gibing it. I appreciate everything you guys took the time to write, especially since I hardly ever come around here anymore. I means a lot to me. Thanks!
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Hopefully there will be a second leg. I would say it will probably be in the fall. They skipped part of the Midwest and all of the southeast and of course Texas for the first leg. I live in Tennessee, so I am flexible within reason . We have some great venues in Nashville, but that probably will not happen. Atlanta is more likely.
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Any shows in Asia I think will come in May/June. South America in August/ Sept. Not sure where Australia/NZ would fit at the moment.
I'd expect that the shows in Australia and New Zealand would be done on the same leg as the Asian dates, just as they've done on previous tours.
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I would fully expect a second leg, in part because the first leg is relatively short, but more importantly because they're skipping MAJOR portions of the US on the first leg -- in essence, nothing south of Washington, D.C. and Kansas and east of Mesa, AZ. I've got buddies moaning in Texas about how they're not coming ANYWHERE near them on this leg.
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It's just so weird how bands book shows sometimes. They got some shows in Mexico, but can't really go up north, in the same leg, to Texas, which has a decent music fanbase.
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Without re-typing the whole explanation I gave in another thread as to why I personally don't think DT has played the SE portion of the US on Evening With tours in the past and may not do so on upcoming tours, I'll just summarize and say that I think it's largely due to the promoters.
If you want a more detailed explanation, check out this thread, starting with a convo I had with El Barto here:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=24446.msg1760647#msg1760647
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You should take him anyways.
You are introducing a negative stimuli, which does not necessarily cause him to reflect on his actions. In a few years when he will be legal adult, he will be able to go to a DT show even if he behaves poorly. What you want to do rarely succeeds in conditioning behavior because he does not understand WHY what he did was wrong and the reasoning as to why he should not do it again. If you do not take him, he is likely to just get angry and as he gets older, he will rebel. It's a common mistake to use negative reinforcement to educate kids. It is much better to try to explain the reasoning in the hopes of getting them to consciously choose not to repeat the behavior. That's the most effective form of discipline because generally, if the child reasons and concludes that they should not bring an iPod to school for a valid logical reason, then they are highly unlikely to do it again. Otherwise they will just feel that they are treated unfairly and will aspire to rebel and live moments of youth when they get older.
So if I tell my son to clean his room and he can have cake after dinner and he refuses to clean his room he should get cake. Because he won't understand what he did wrong? Wouldn't giving him cake, or taking him to the DT concert show him that it's ok to break the rules, because you can get away with it?
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I think that, given the relevance they're giving to this tour and how big the production is and all, there's is quite the chance for a second US leg to happen, especially since no Latin American leg has been announced and they most likely will want to take the show here. Perhaps not Central America this time around (which would be a shame, at least for me since my only chance to see them would be Costa Rica), but I don't think they would skip South America. And it's logistically convenient to do another North American run (if they want to do it, anyways) before doing a Latin American leg.
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I think DT will for sure do a second go around.
As to the US, it only has Florida as a leg right now, but if we annex Baja California.....
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You should take him anyways.
You are introducing a negative stimuli, which does not necessarily cause him to reflect on his actions. In a few years when he will be legal adult, he will be able to go to a DT show even if he behaves poorly. What you want to do rarely succeeds in conditioning behavior because he does not understand WHY what he did was wrong and the reasoning as to why he should not do it again. If you do not take him, he is likely to just get angry and as he gets older, he will rebel. It's a common mistake to use negative reinforcement to educate kids. It is much better to try to explain the reasoning in the hopes of getting them to consciously choose not to repeat the behavior. That's the most effective form of discipline because generally, if the child reasons and concludes that they should not bring an iPod to school for a valid logical reason, then they are highly unlikely to do it again. Otherwise they will just feel that they are treated unfairly and will aspire to rebel and live moments of youth when they get older.
So if I tell my son to clean his room and he can have cake after dinner and he refuses to clean his room he should get cake. Because he won't understand what he did wrong? Wouldn't giving him cake, or taking him to the DT concert show him that it's ok to break the rules, because you can get away with it?
I would not make those reward-able outcomes to begin with. It boils down to the same sort of conditioning. As an adult, when he will clean his room, he will expect a reward to be given that is completely unrelated to the satisfaction of having a clean room.
The issue with reward-able outcomes is that they are rewarding good behavior with something unrelated.
What can happen is:
Well, I cleaned my room, but no one prepared a destert for me, so I will stop cleaning it in the future.
Rather than:
As dad/mom explained to me, keeping a clean room can:
-Prevent me from tripping on my stuff and hurting myself
-Help me find my stuff faster and therefore waste less time looking for my stuff
-Give me good practice for staying organized now for when I will have no choice but to be organized when I have a job
-Make my room less dusty and prevent me from sneezing from allergies or get sick
-Make me look responsible when I have friends or company over
These are all advantages that should be understandable by a certain age group. There are also very compelling and logical reasons as to why mom and dad should not clean your room for you too.
At least for me, this sort of logical conditioning was very effective for me growing up. I get a serge of dopamine from seeing a clean room as an adult because I associate that with all of the aforementioned positive outcomes directly linked with cleaning my room.
In the same regard, the DT show should not be viewed as a reward-able outcome of behavior (in my model). This will build expectancy that he should receive an unlinked reward as large as going to see a DT show just for not bringing an iPod to school. What will happen is, even if he stops bringing it to school this time, and went to go see DT, he would just start disobeying straight after because there is no longer any incentive not to do so.
This is because the real positive outcomes of obeying the rules have not been explained. The reward-able outcome is no different than if I told you: If you paint my roof, I will bring you to a DT show. That certainly will not lead you to repaint my roof the week after the show will it?
That's the point I am getting at.
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I am disappointed beyond belief. My son is 14, I bought us tickets for his first DT show; all he had to do was not get in trouble at school for 2 more weeks. He's been told not to take his ipod to school, but he did today, and got caught with it, so he has detention. Therefore, no concert for him. I don't think he has a clue how much this upsets me.
So I want to tell him to shoot for the next leg, but I want to make sure it's going to happen before I say anything to him.
From what I understand, and I'm not trying to tell you how to discipline your son, going for the second leg kinda tells him it's not all bad to do what he did.
If my daughter (11 yrs old) would do such a thing, I would have told her she'd have to wait for the next tour all together.
She would have noone to blame but herself.
It may for some be a bit too much, but if my kid knows what the punishment for her actions means... I would wholeheartedly stick by it.
But... I support your actions, as your son is completely different from my kid, and so are you and me... and imho raising a child and being a parent is mostly a grey area, within certain
boundaries ofcourse.
I certainly hope there will be a second leg for you and your boy, and I'll bet he will have the best of times! ;D
CM
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We worked out some different (and I think more effective) punishments than the concert, so I'm taking him. I want to thank everyone for all of your input. I see everyone's side in this, but part of the reason I chose to take him is for my benefit. I can't wait to see his face when they come out! Providing, of course, he can stay out of trouble until next Thursday. I feel like chaining him to his bed for a week lol.
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So I looked at the dates, and they're in Europe this summer, and they have a date in October in Japan. Has anyone heard anything about more tour dates for the US, or do you think they will probably take the rest of the year off for the holidays?
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I can't say I could know for sure, but I get the feeling maybe next year?
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Is this gonna throw off their 2-year album schedule since they didn't start the tour until 2014? Will the next album still be 2015?
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Never.
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Never.
I think it's a possibility. And honestly, I don't mind. Give them a little time to break a bit from the formula, listen to some other music...
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time to break a bit from the formula, listen to some other music...
DREAM THEATER fan LUCIEN has announced that he he is leaving the band's fanbase after 25 years because he grows tired of the write/record/tour/break/tour cycle.
"Listen to some other music," he told them. "[It's] time to break... the formula."
Source: Blabbermouth
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:lol
I was saying I didn't mind if they ended up taking longer than 2 years to make another album.
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Never.
They're touring schedule has always been "weird", and it looks even worse this tour. I mean, a two month layoff between the US dates and a return to Europe in July? :tdwn Add that to the fact that they did a relatively short North American tour, I just can't see how this band makes any money! :omg:
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For what it's worth, I got a chance to chat with Jordan at an event in NYC two weeks ago, and he told me that there is going to be another North American leg when I asked.
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Never.
They're touring schedule has always been "weird", and it looks even worse this tour. I mean, a two month layoff between the US dates and a return to Europe in July? :tdwn Add that to the fact that they did a relatively short North American tour, I just can't see how this band makes any money! :omg:
Of course they make money you silly person. They are older with families now and they can afford the luxury of breaks between legs of the tours.
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For what it's worth, I got a chance to chat with Jordan at an event in NYC two weeks ago, and he told me that there is going to be another North American leg when I asked.
You wouldn't be pulling our leg would ya? Did he say anything about the South as part of that tour and whether it will be An Evening with...show? This gives me hope. Thanks.
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I wouldn't worry about DT13 being late, DTs release schedule has been far too consistent. Of course it's possible it doesn't get made until 2016 but if we're to base anything on their history, they never take longer than 3 years even when shits going down. But I'm fairly confident DT13 will probably show up late next year.
What I'm not very confident about is if DT will pop over to New Zealand during the Asia leg. I wonder how they felt about coming here, because I know the people at the concert obviously loved it and that's all that matters. But I do remember seeing some nonsense on the news about them at the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfiqmYEYfW8
No wonder they haven't come back. :lol
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I posted about this a while back but when I saw them in Vancouver last month, JLB said that they plan on coming back "early 2015".
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They're touring schedule has always been "weird", and it looks even worse this tour. I mean, a two month layoff between the US dates and a return to Europe in July? :tdwn Add that to the fact that they did a relatively short North American tour, I just can't see how this band makes any money! :omg:
Pfffff, 18 shows in the US seems plenty compared other bands that does only 11 headlining shows and a few festivals. Hopefully, if there is a 2nd US leg, they would hit the areas that they did not hit the first time, but the timing has to be right in that end though.