Nickelback - overhated band or not?

[Stadler]

I don't know man, Rush have sold 25 million albums so they must suck 

Good for them. And they don't suck.

Man, do you realise that Santana's most commercially successful album by a long shot is Supernatural from 1999? Does it mean that is his greatest album? Do you realize that the masses of people who bought that commercial album didn't know shit about Santana's classic stuff?

And you know that how....?

(That's also a shitty example; I could have bought that record for Rob Thomas, or Eric Clapton, or Dave Matthews.  You keep vacillating between the general and the specific in a way that is just head spinning.)

[Stadler]

And yes, I know this is sacrilege on a Dream Theater message board and it's not "cool" to think of Justin Bieber as talented but please tell the class about all of your gold and platinum-selling albums?  Again, commercial artist writes commercial songs and sells, in Bieber's case 20 million records, that's success.  And while I might not like it, of course it has artistic merit.  The fact that you asked that question demonstrates snobbery, frankly.

If Bieber has artistic merit then can we put him in the same pantheon of music artists with David Bowie?

Who knows?  Again, though, your logic skills are horrible.  That you have artistic merit doesn't mean you're identical with everyone else that has artistic merit.  David Bowie has/had an almost 55 year career.  He was more than a musician (he was an artist/painter, actor, writer, cultural icon).   Bieber is working on about 13 years now, and has a ways to go. We'll see, though.

[Stadler]

Damn.  That sucks. That was a dick move. He could have politely declined.

I met Bono too.  So damn cool.

When I was married to my first wife, I tried to get to meet him and came close twice but it didn't work out.  I was kind of bummed.   

[WilliamMunny]

WildRanger reminds me of myself............. when I was 15.

Yeah man...you know, it's a strange thing when a bunch of 40-50 year olds are arguing on behalf of Justin Beiber! 

FWIW, my 12-year old told me yesterday that his 2 favorite artists are Nirvana and Kanye...he also likes Beiber. It's kinda refreshing to see someone listen to music so innocently and without prejudice. I'm sure there'll come a point where 'what' he listens to matters in a way that his clothes do, but as of yet, he's just happy to explore, discover, and listen.

[bluefox4000]

i have an affinity for boy bands.

also tom waits.  and they live together in harmony in my collection.  who'd have thunk it.

[WilliamMunny]

i have an affinity for boy bands.

also tom waits.  and they live together in harmony in my collection.  who'd have thunk it.

Yeah, Waits is an original.

You know, my wife and I were watching that Denzel flick, 'The Book of Eli' the other day (really solid film btw), and Waits is totally in it. That makes three movies I've watched this month where he has an appearence.

I know he's playing a type-casted role, but man, I love that dude's acting!

[twosuitsluke]

Right, so instead of responding to any of the relevant points in my last post, or answering my questions, you instead discuss the finer points of Santana's biggest selling album.....


Of course 

WildRanger reminds me of myself............. when I was 15.

Yeah man...you know, it's a strange thing when a bunch of 40-50 year olds are arguing on behalf of Justin Beiber! 

 

WildRanger, any chance you'll actually answer any of the relevant questions that have been asked?

[KevShmev]

Ringo Starr is a better drummer than John Bonham was.

Prove me wrong.

[OpenYourEyes311]

As ridiculous as this thread is, it made check out Feed the Machine from 2017. It reminded me of the All the Right Reasons-Dark Horse-Here and Now run and sounded a lot less like No Fixed Address. This was a good thing. Reminded me why I like Nickelback.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Huh, it's actually been a while since Feed The Machine came out, hasn't it. Wonder what they're up to now.

[Elite]

WildRanger, any chance you'll actually answer any of the relevant questions that have been asked?

I don't think he will. He never does. That's part of the reason for me to keep asking him simple questions in response to what he's writing (I almost never get a response). I get the idea dat WildRanger doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and him not answering when he gets asked to explain kind of proves my point.

[twosuitsluke]

WildRanger, any chance you'll actually answer any of the relevant questions that have been asked?

I don't think he will. He never does. That's part of the reason for me to keep asking him simple questions in response to what he's writing (I almost never get a response). I get the idea dat WildRanger doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and him not answering when he gets asked to explain kind of proves my point.

It's the questions that prove his way of thinking is flawed that he clearly avoids.

But as they say "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result".

Yet here I am 

[Stadler]

Ringo Starr is a better drummer than John Bonham was.

Prove me wrong.

It's objectively true.  I said so.

[eric42434224]

Ringo Starr is a better drummer than John Bonham was.

Prove me wrong.

You are right.  Ringo absolutely destroys anything Bonham played after Sept 25, 1980.

[Stadler]

WildRanger reminds me of myself............. when I was 15.

Yeah man...you know, it's a strange thing when a bunch of 40-50 year olds are arguing on behalf of Justin Beiber! 

FWIW, my 12-year old told me yesterday that his 2 favorite artists are Nirvana and Kanye...he also likes Beiber. It's kinda refreshing to see someone listen to music so innocently and without prejudice. I'm sure there'll come a point where 'what' he listens to matters in a way that his clothes do, but as of yet, he's just happy to explore, discover, and listen.

I LOVE this!   I have four kids, and it's so much... fun isn't the right word but it'll do - to watch them.  My daughter (20) was like that with Taylor Swift, and she hasn't grown out of it.  It's part of her growing up like Iron Maiden was part of mine.     It MEANS something to her, whatever that is, and since she's a smart, funny, beautiful person despite that (I'm being snarky here), I can't find fault in that.   My step son - 27, in the Army, and can break down a helicopter mechanically in a matter of hours/days - is and always was a fan of Disney movies.  He went to Afghanistan, and when we asked him what we could send, he said "Beauty And The Beast".   I love that.   We were at his old house the other week and found some CDs, and it was cool to watch him put songs on and you could tell he was going back in time, to, in some ways, a more innocent place.   Where he hadn't seen some of the things he's seen, and had to deal with some of the things he's had to deal with.

I don't know; from that, I find it REALLY hard to make fun of or even question what anyone likes.   It's like making fun of their face or their voice.  It's a part of who they are.

[Stadler]

Ringo Starr is a better drummer than John Bonham was.

Prove me wrong.

You are right.  Ringo absolutely destroys anything Bonham played after Sept 25, 1980.

Haha.  Dark, but funny.

[twosuitsluke]

Stads, I totally get where you are coming from. I love and respect the sort of people who unashamedly love what they love, regardless of what others think!

I have a friend who, whenever he gets drunk, just starts belting out A Whole New World from Aladdin! He LOVES it so much, it's in his soul and I respect that.

On the other hand I have friends who follow the trend and just like what is popular. In my experience, these people are almost unable to make up their own minds about music. It's sad really. They need to feel like liking something is "cool", so they know it is ok to listen to it. They've probably been ridiculed growing up, which just sucks.

I refuse to let my one year old grow up that way. I will celebrate what he loves, regardless of my own opinions.

That's the beauty of music 

[twosuitsluke]

I somehow quoted myself, ignore this post 

[Elite]

Be My Baby by The Ronettes is one of my favourite songs ever.

[WildRanger]

WildRanger reminds me of myself............. when I was 15.

Yeah man...you know, it's a strange thing when a bunch of 40-50 year olds are arguing on behalf of Justin Beiber! 

FWIW, my 12-year old told me yesterday that his 2 favorite artists are Nirvana and Kanye...he also likes Beiber. It's kinda refreshing to see someone listen to music so innocently and without prejudice. I'm sure there'll come a point where 'what' he listens to matters in a way that his clothes do, but as of yet, he's just happy to explore, discover, and listen.

I LOVE this!   I have four kids, and it's so much... fun isn't the right word but it'll do - to watch them.  My daughter (20) was like that with Taylor Swift, and she hasn't grown out of it.  It's part of her growing up like Iron Maiden was part of mine.     It MEANS something to her, whatever that is, and since she's a smart, funny, beautiful person despite that (I'm being snarky here), I can't find fault in that.   My step son - 27, in the Army, and can break down a helicopter mechanically in a matter of hours/days - is and always was a fan of Disney movies.  He went to Afghanistan, and when we asked him what we could send, he said "Beauty And The Beast".   I love that.   We were at his old house the other week and found some CDs, and it was cool to watch him put songs on and you could tell he was going back in time, to, in some ways, a more innocent place.   Where he hadn't seen some of the things he's seen, and had to deal with some of the things he's had to deal with.

I don't know; from that, I find it REALLY hard to make fun of or even question what anyone likes.   It's like making fun of their face or their voice.  It's a part of who they are.

How old are U?

[WildRanger]

Ringo Starr is a better drummer than John Bonham was.

Prove me wrong.

It's objectively true.  I said so.

Only if you're kidding.

[WildRanger]

God, there is so much to unpick here.

WildRanger, I'm sure you come to DTF hoping for some prog rock echo chamber, where we all sit around and slag off crappy popular music  that the masses adore.  However, one of the main reasons I come back here all the time is the diverse bunch of people, and their diverse tastes.

Know I now in your black and white world "critically acclaimed" (which is a term I've heard you use so many times) artists should be heralded, and everything else is just trash that the uneducated listen to. But it's not that simple. By your own admission, from earlier posts, you've basically stated that if a band is "acclaimed" then they will literally have songs that appeal to all who consider themselves serious music fans. By the fact that they are acclaimed, they must appeal to you, with at least some of their songs:

I get not being a fan of them but I can't get how someone cannot find one (or two or three) Rush song(s) to like, since their music is so diverse.
I think those people who say that haven't heard more than a couple of Rush songs. And as I said, I can accept that only in case if someone dislike Geddy's singing.

And when it comes to your stance towards Radiohead I can bet that you haven't heard a LOT OF their songs, but only a few. If you've heard 20 Radiohead songs you could find at least one song to like.

I just don't buy a claim "I'm not a fan of some (acclaimed) band so I like none of their songs" if the vocals are not the issue. It's just hardly possible.

So if a band is "acclaimed" you can't buy someone saying they are a not a fan of them, and therefore not liking their songs? It's "hardly possible". Seriously, what?

This is what it seems to boil down to you. Critically acclaimed, whatever the fuck that actually means, means that you hold it in higher regard (and therefore superior), than all other music that isn't critically acclaimed? And by extension, everyone on DTF (as a prog forum) should agree with you?

Here's a question for you. What would happen if Nickleback's next album was "critically acclaimed"? Would you suddenly have to take them seriously and agree that they are talented and good at what they do? Seriously, answer this question.

Follow up question. I can only assume, from your previous statements, that you like songs by every "critically acclaimed" artist? You said it's hardly possible to listen to 20 songs by a "critically acclaimed" artist and not like any. Do you like every single "critically acclaimed" artist?

DTF, as I said, is full of open minded people (for the most part  ). I take the musical opinions and recommendations, of certain people on this forum, more seriously than any media/magazine/reviewer out there. You are not going to get what you are looking for with threads like this.

And yes, Justin Bieber has artistic merit.

FFS, I swore I wouldn't do this again...

I'll give you a short answer.
I haven't listened to all (critically) acclaimed music artists, but out of those I've heard I liked most of them. I can't be a fan of every acclaimed artist, but I RESPECT them.

For example David Bowie is a generally respected music artist, while Justin Bieber is NOT and he will never be. That makes Bowie (objectively) much GREATER than Bieber. In general 'real' music fans respect Bowie for a reason, although some of those people are not his fans and they don't have to be. Those same people disrespect Bieber because they recognized there is no ART and QUALITY in his music, just COMMERCE for very lame entertainment. 
Case closed.

[WildRanger]

Be My Baby by The Ronettes is one of my favourite songs ever.

I've heard that tune. I must admit it's a legitimate pop classic.

[WilliamMunny]

WildRanger reminds me of myself............. when I was 15.

Yeah man...you know, it's a strange thing when a bunch of 40-50 year olds are arguing on behalf of Justin Beiber! 

FWIW, my 12-year old told me yesterday that his 2 favorite artists are Nirvana and Kanye...he also likes Beiber. It's kinda refreshing to see someone listen to music so innocently and without prejudice. I'm sure there'll come a point where 'what' he listens to matters in a way that his clothes do, but as of yet, he's just happy to explore, discover, and listen.

I LOVE this!   I have four kids, and it's so much... fun isn't the right word but it'll do - to watch them.  My daughter (20) was like that with Taylor Swift, and she hasn't grown out of it.  It's part of her growing up like Iron Maiden was part of mine.     It MEANS something to her, whatever that is, and since she's a smart, funny, beautiful person despite that (I'm being snarky here), I can't find fault in that.   My step son - 27, in the Army, and can break down a helicopter mechanically in a matter of hours/days - is and always was a fan of Disney movies.  He went to Afghanistan, and when we asked him what we could send, he said "Beauty And The Beast".   I love that.   We were at his old house the other week and found some CDs, and it was cool to watch him put songs on and you could tell he was going back in time, to, in some ways, a more innocent place.   Where he hadn't seen some of the things he's seen, and had to deal with some of the things he's had to deal with.

I don't know; from that, I find it REALLY hard to make fun of or even question what anyone likes.   It's like making fun of their face or their voice.  It's a part of who they are.

How old are U?

I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but it's my quote up there, so what the hay.

I'm 40—but my girl Aaliyah told me that age ain't nuthin' but a number

[Stadler]

WildRanger reminds me of myself............. when I was 15.

Yeah man...you know, it's a strange thing when a bunch of 40-50 year olds are arguing on behalf of Justin Beiber! 

FWIW, my 12-year old told me yesterday that his 2 favorite artists are Nirvana and Kanye...he also likes Beiber. It's kinda refreshing to see someone listen to music so innocently and without prejudice. I'm sure there'll come a point where 'what' he listens to matters in a way that his clothes do, but as of yet, he's just happy to explore, discover, and listen.

I LOVE this!   I have four kids, and it's so much... fun isn't the right word but it'll do - to watch them.  My daughter (20) was like that with Taylor Swift, and she hasn't grown out of it.  It's part of her growing up like Iron Maiden was part of mine.     It MEANS something to her, whatever that is, and since she's a smart, funny, beautiful person despite that (I'm being snarky here), I can't find fault in that.   My step son - 27, in the Army, and can break down a helicopter mechanically in a matter of hours/days - is and always was a fan of Disney movies.  He went to Afghanistan, and when we asked him what we could send, he said "Beauty And The Beast".   I love that.   We were at his old house the other week and found some CDs, and it was cool to watch him put songs on and you could tell he was going back in time, to, in some ways, a more innocent place.   Where he hadn't seen some of the things he's seen, and had to deal with some of the things he's had to deal with.

I don't know; from that, I find it REALLY hard to make fun of or even question what anyone likes.   It's like making fun of their face or their voice.  It's a part of who they are.

How old are U?

Depends who's asking; if you have a COVID shot for me, I'm 65.  If not, I'm 53.    For context, I'm at about 350 concerts and counting, and this is "A through P" of my CD collection; "P through Z" and all the box sets are elsewhere.

 

[WilliamMunny]

God, there is so much to unpick here.

WildRanger, I'm sure you come to DTF hoping for some prog rock echo chamber, where we all sit around and slag off crappy popular music  that the masses adore.  However, one of the main reasons I come back here all the time is the diverse bunch of people, and their diverse tastes.

Know I now in your black and white world "critically acclaimed" (which is a term I've heard you use so many times) artists should be heralded, and everything else is just trash that the uneducated listen to. But it's not that simple. By your own admission, from earlier posts, you've basically stated that if a band is "acclaimed" then they will literally have songs that appeal to all who consider themselves serious music fans. By the fact that they are acclaimed, they must appeal to you, with at least some of their songs:

I get not being a fan of them but I can't get how someone cannot find one (or two or three) Rush song(s) to like, since their music is so diverse.
I think those people who say that haven't heard more than a couple of Rush songs. And as I said, I can accept that only in case if someone dislike Geddy's singing.

And when it comes to your stance towards Radiohead I can bet that you haven't heard a LOT OF their songs, but only a few. If you've heard 20 Radiohead songs you could find at least one song to like.

I just don't buy a claim "I'm not a fan of some (acclaimed) band so I like none of their songs" if the vocals are not the issue. It's just hardly possible.

So if a band is "acclaimed" you can't buy someone saying they are a not a fan of them, and therefore not liking their songs? It's "hardly possible". Seriously, what?

This is what it seems to boil down to you. Critically acclaimed, whatever the fuck that actually means, means that you hold it in higher regard (and therefore superior), than all other music that isn't critically acclaimed? And by extension, everyone on DTF (as a prog forum) should agree with you?

Here's a question for you. What would happen if Nickleback's next album was "critically acclaimed"? Would you suddenly have to take them seriously and agree that they are talented and good at what they do? Seriously, answer this question.

Follow up question. I can only assume, from your previous statements, that you like songs by every "critically acclaimed" artist? You said it's hardly possible to listen to 20 songs by a "critically acclaimed" artist and not like any. Do you like every single "critically acclaimed" artist?

DTF, as I said, is full of open minded people (for the most part  ). I take the musical opinions and recommendations, of certain people on this forum, more seriously than any media/magazine/reviewer out there. You are not going to get what you are looking for with threads like this.

And yes, Justin Bieber has artistic merit.

FFS, I swore I wouldn't do this again...

I'll give you a short answer.
I haven't listened to all (critically) acclaimed music artists, but out of those I've heard I liked most of them. I can't be a fan of every acclaimed artist, but I RESPECT them.

For example David Bowie is a generally respected music artist, while Justin Bieber is NOT and he will never be. That makes Bowie (objectively) much GREATER than Bieber. In general 'real' music fans respect Bowie for a reason, although some of those people are not his fans and they don't have to be. Those same people disrespect Bieber because they recognized there is no ART and QUALITY in his music, just COMMERCE for very lame entertainment. 
Case closed.

Care to define 'real' as it pertains to music fans?

[Stadler]

I'll give you a short answer.
I haven't listened to all (critically) acclaimed music artists, but out of those I've heard I liked most of them. I can't be a fan of every acclaimed artist, but I RESPECT them.

For example David Bowie is a generally respected music artist, while Justin Bieber is NOT and he will never be. That makes Bowie (objectively) much GREATER than Bieber. In general 'real' music fans respect Bowie for a reason, although some of those people are not his fans and they don't have to be. Those same people disrespect Bieber because they recognized there is no ART and QUALITY in his music, just COMMERCE for very lame entertainment. 
Case closed.

Seriously, bro, you're getting ridiculous.  I've stuck up for you to a degree in the past, but if you're saying "I'm not a real music fan" because I don't disrespect Justin Bieber, well, you've lost what little credibility you might have had with me.   

You CLEARLY have no idea what you're talking about.

Name a "respected" musician, and I've seen him:  Clapton, more than once.  Crimson, about four times.  Yes, too many times to count.  Blackmore three times, Page twice, Plant twice, Paul Rodgers, Schenker, Gilmour twice, Elton John three times, Billy Joel like six or seven, the Dead three times, McCartney once... but guess what?  I've seen the Jonas Brothers twice, Harry Styles once, and Miley Cyrus, too.  Harry Styles was one of the best concerts I've ever seen; I was mid-level at the Madison Square Garden, sold out, and the arena was shaking.  Literally, SHAKING.  I've seen Kiss and Temple Of The Dog there, and only Kiss - a homecoming show on the first leg of their reunion tour - was close to that.

Music is music, and if it moves you, it moves you.  All your words don't amount to a pile of dog shit in the face of that.

[WilliamMunny]

There's a culteral component at play here as well.

Do 45-65 white men respect Bowie? Sure, in white, middle-class America. Go to other parts of the world, or hell, even another zip code, and that respect might transform into disinterest based on a lack of familiarity. Relevenace plays a roll here, and what's relevant to one age-group or community is not necessarily relevant to another—for a million reasons. Jay-Z carries way more cred than Bowie right now with much of our country—and it has nothing to do with the artists themselves, but rather, the context within which they're viewed.

Point being, when you throw out a term like 'real music fan,' you are, intentionally or not, casting some pretty wide aspersions.

[twosuitsluke]

WildRanger, I still can't work out if you are a top class troll, or just delusional! Some of the stuff you come out with blows my mind.

you are, intentionally or not, casting some pretty wide aspersions.

This is his M.O. 

[WilliamMunny]

I know.... I’ve been reading his posts for years, and I try to stay out of conversations like this but I will be the first to admit that I got hooked.

“Just when I think I’m out, they pull me back in....”

[Stadler]

It'd be interesting just once to pull back the curtain and see if it's legit or just trolling.  I'm good, because I like the conversation, but when it gets to statements that blatantly unambiguously are not in agreement with very clear statements from the members here - the best empirical evidence you can get - it's just too much.   

[Lonk]

We're still talking about this...ok.

WildRanger, take a quick look at this list:

http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/1948-09art.htm

Now I don't expect you to agree with this list, and if you are curious, Rush lands at 486. If you scroll up to 431, you will find 50 Cent. Eminem lands at 71 (415 spaces higher than Rush).

I know this isn't a perfect list, I don't even know what measures they are using to determine the ranking, but to think just because you consider artist a "better" than artist b means everyone else should as well is ridiculous. I used 50 Cent and Eminem as example because of metal heads usually shitting on anything hip hop.

And with that, I'll stop posting about this topic. There are better threads to read than all of us pointlessly talking to WildRanger.

[Zantera]

I don't know what point WildRanger is trying to make other than throwing out random examples hoping that one sticks, but overall it's like circular logic.

David Bowie is apparently objectively good because he is respected, yet the same kind of logic does not apply to a Justin Bieber (for example) despite a lot of people clearly liking his music. Popularity is not a measuring stick of quality except for when it is and works in the argument's favor.

[twosuitsluke]

What really bugged me about the last Bieber comment (in comparison to Bowie), was not only that he dismissed him being a respected artist, but also dismissing that he could EVER be a respected artist!

[WildRanger]

Do 45-65 white men respect Bowie? Sure, in white, middle-class America. Go to other parts of the world, or hell, even another zip code, and that respect might transform into disinterest based on a lack of familiarity. Relevenace plays a roll here, and what's relevant to one age-group or community is not necessarily relevant to another—for a million reasons. Jay-Z carries way more cred than Bowie right now with much of our country—and it has nothing to do with the artists themselves, but rather, the context within which they're viewed.

Also Ed Sheeran is a much more relevant music artist than Bowie to today's youth. Why?
Media and modern commercial music industry decide and tell the masses of young people what is trendy on music scene and what they should like and they'll like it without any critical reasoning. That's the problem. Those young people have NO TASTE and can't have a taste because they have no critical reasoning while listening today's mainstream music. They're gonna ACCEPT everything that the mainstream media puts in front of them. That's tragic.
How can you explain that a song like "Despacito" and "Gangam Style" have an insanely large amount of views on YouTube, while The Beatles' "A Day in the Life" has only 113 million? Does it mean that "Despacito" and "Gangam Style" have more merit than ADIL today? Seriously.