Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[BlobVanDam]

I would definitely have chosen Similitude for ENT, and In a Mirror Darkly, despite my dislike for the rest of S4.

For Voyager, I would definitely not have chosen Equinox. Janeway was PMS'ing so hard in part 2 that I assumed she'd been possessed by an alien entity. The Void was ok, but not near one of the best. Year of Hell and Timeless would be my top picks. Both amazing.

Good choices for DS9 and TNG. Can't argue with those.

For TOS, I mostly agree too, although I wouldn't put BoT quite so high. Still near the top of TOS, but not the best. COTEOF is easily the best TOS episode imo, and I think Tribbles deserves its place too. I'd probably choose Amok Time for second place from TOS.

I didn't actually read the list, because with over 700 episodes, they're bound to miss episodes I think should be there, and include ones I don't agree with.

[King Postwhore]

I was babysitting for my brother and he had Netflix and I went right to DS9 and watched Far Beyond the Stars.  What a great episode.

[El Barto]

I would definitely have chosen Similitude for ENT, and In a Mirror Darkly, despite my dislike for the rest of S4.

For Voyager, I would definitely not have chosen Equinox. Janeway was PMS'ing so hard in part 2 that I assumed she'd been possessed by an alien entity. The Void was ok, but not near one of the best. Year of Hell and Timeless would be my top picks. Both amazing.

Good choices for DS9 and TNG. Can't argue with those.

For TOS, I mostly agree too, although I wouldn't put BoT quite so high. Still near the top of TOS, but not the best. COTEOF is easily the best TOS episode imo, and I think Tribbles deserves its place too. I'd probably choose Amok Time for second place from TOS.

I didn't actually read the list, because with over 700 episodes, they're bound to miss episodes I think should be there, and include ones I don't agree with.

Last time I watched Year of Hell it occurred to me that Annorax was a real dumbass, which lessened the episode quite a bit. For all of his intelligence with temporal mechanics, and all the time he had to ponder it, it never occurred to him that erasing the time ship would solve his problems? And you're right about Janeway in Equinox. I forgot how far off the deep end she went. Just like Picard in every TNG move.

[BlobVanDam]

I figure that time travel is too difficult to predict for him to have known the results of destroying the ship, especially as he kind of existed outside of time. It might have been a fluke that it worked. Time travel usually has its problems in TV shows and movies, so it's hard to know exactly how things should work.
Janeway didn't kamikaze run his ship to fix the timeline, she did it because she was totally screwed anyway and wanted to take him down with her, so it's not like Voyager had it figured out either. One of the most badass moments in Trek.

[El Barto]

I figure that time travel is too difficult to predict for him to have known the results of destroying the ship, especially as he kind of existed outside of time. It might have been a fluke that it worked. Time travel usually has its problems in TV shows and movies, so it's hard to know exactly how things should work.
Janeway didn't kamikaze run his ship to fix the timeline, she did it because she was totally screwed anyway and wanted to take him down with her, so it's not like Voyager had it figured out either. One of the most badass moments in Trek.

Well, you got two problems there. This guy was supposed to be the all-time genius of temporal mechanics. And he had centuries to research what was up. Their entire existence involved figuring out what to erase to restore the timeline. While others might have had an excuse, he did not. The other problem is that it's common sense. They knew that erasing the first civilization is what mucked things up, so by erasing the instrument of that first destruction the original timeline restores and that's that. If you want to say that the solution was too simple for somebody as highly trained and focused as Annorax then so be it. Maybe it's a problem that required Naomi Wildman to figure out, but to say that it was too complicated doesn't work for me. It was too simple, instead, and somebody on that ship should have had the idea.

[rumborak]

I think ENT kinda crapped out with their time travel story arc because of that exact reason. Time travel immediately gets you into paradoxes and inconsistencies, and so the key character (Daniels) was relegated to "Matrix Oracle"-esque blabbering.
A bummer really; ENT could have set a new standard on how time travel could work, but instead they just bailed out and kept it at "Daniels won't tell".

[BlobVanDam]

I figure that time travel is too difficult to predict for him to have known the results of destroying the ship, especially as he kind of existed outside of time. It might have been a fluke that it worked. Time travel usually has its problems in TV shows and movies, so it's hard to know exactly how things should work.
Janeway didn't kamikaze run his ship to fix the timeline, she did it because she was totally screwed anyway and wanted to take him down with her, so it's not like Voyager had it figured out either. One of the most badass moments in Trek.

Well, you got two problems there. This guy was supposed to be the all-time genius of temporal mechanics. And he had centuries to research what was up. Their entire existence involved figuring out what to erase to restore the timeline. While others might have had an excuse, he did not. The other problem is that it's common sense. They knew that erasing the first civilization is what mucked things up, so by erasing the instrument of that first destruction the original timeline restores and that's that. If you want to say that the solution was too simple for somebody as highly trained and focused as Annorax then so be it. Maybe it's a problem that required Naomi Wildman to figure out, but to say that it was too complicated doesn't work for me. It was too simple, instead, and somebody on that ship should have had the idea.

You're not factoring in that it's not simply a matter of destroying the time ship, it has to be erased from time by its own weapon. You can't just point the timeship weapon at itself and erase itself. Bombing the thing worked because it destabilized the core and triggered a time incursion that affected the whole ship (as Annorax says before it blows). Destabilized implies unpredictability. As I said, it was likely a fluke that it triggered that way. If a different part of the ship was hit, it may have just blown up and left things the way they were, unable to ever be fixed. Nobody else thought of this idea, not the Voyager crew, and it wasn't a simple solution, even though it appeared that way. Janeway wasn't trying to restore the timeline, she was just trying to take him down with her. Had the ship been destroyed by the impact itself, everyone would just be dead.

Assuming Annorax did think of the idea of erasing himself, he'd either have to devise a way to trigger a risky process that he only has one shot to get right or else everything is permanently screwed, or alternatively build another weapon or modify the current weapon in some way that would be likely impossible, due to not being able to exist outside of the confines of the ship without being erased along with everything else, and erasing the technology from the sector. I doubt he would have been able to modify anything without affecting the time bubble that allows them to survive anyway.

I'm not saying the logic of the episode is bulletproof by any means, but it's not as simple as you're trying to make out. Every time travel story has its logic problems.

[El Barto]

I'd estimate that a full third of every episode of ST has the ship's crew figuring out a way to do something similarly complicated or impossible. The whole premise that Star Fleet is so extraordinarily badass is based on the fact that they're constantly finding creative solutions to problems like "how do you get the weapon to work on itself." And, often times that solution is a ultra high risk endeavor. "Captain, either this works or we'll wipe the entire universe clear out of existence." "Make is so, ensign No Name."

And the easier idea I had was the Naomi Wildman approach. Just build another one.

[BlobVanDam]

I just explained why they couldn't build another one.

But basically, restoring the timeline is as easy or hard as the writers want it to be. They could just as easily have just made Voyager "reconfigure the deflector emitter to send out a tachyon pulse wave at a phasing frequency to penetrate the ship's temporal barrier" or whatever. And if they made it possible for Annorax to easily fix the timeline, you've got no episode. And they wanted Janeway to take a run at the ship because it's badass.

[El Barto]

Of course that's correct, but it doesn't change the fact that Annorax was a dumbass.

[rumborak]

Well, he was in that 70s show. What do you expect.

[PowerSlave]

Sorry if I'm taking you guys off the current topic, but after all these years I finally started watching Enterprise from start to finish. I had caught some of the episodes when it originally aired, but I didn't follow the series through. I've been at it for about a month now, and I'm two episodes into season 3. I must say that they took what was easily one of the worst theme songs of all time and made it worse with the beginning of season 3. I didn't remember the song annoying me that much in the past, but now it's just horrible. Also, the tone and production of the show took a big turn towards being darker at the end of season 2. It's like they felt the need to really spice things up, maybe? I'm guessing that they had ratings issues when the show was originally aired...

[rumborak]

I'm on Season 2, so I got a bit more time

What's getting a bit on my nerves is the Malcolm guy. I think they overdid his stuffiness/Britishness/Self-pitying.

[rumborak]

Different question: Did any captain ever consciously sacrifice a crew member to save the rest? The only instance I can think of is Troi's officer training, where sending Geordi into that tube would save the rest but kill him. But that was hypothetical; did anybody ever do it? Every episode seems to be about risking everything just to save that one guy.

[PowerSlave]

What's getting a bit on my nerves is the Malcolm guy. I think they overdid his stuffiness/Britishness/Self-pitying.

Yeah, he might be the worst character on the show. So far, I'm enjoying it more than Voyager and there don't seem to be many bad episodes. I know a little bit about some of the upcoming stuff due to reading other people's comments about them, but I'm saving my judgement. The most consistent characters up to this point are Phlox and Hoshi. They haven't been featured very much, but you usually know what you're getting from them.

[BlobVanDam]

What's getting a bit on my nerves is the Malcolm guy. I think they overdid his stuffiness/Britishness/Self-pitying.

Yeah, he might be the worst character on the show. So far, I'm enjoying it more than Voyager and there don't seem to be many bad episodes. I know a little bit about some of the upcoming stuff due to reading other people's comments about them, but I'm saving my judgement. The most consistent characters up to this point are Phlox and Hoshi. They haven't been featured very much, but you usually know what you're getting from them.

Hoshi never gets much screen time (which is a shame, because she's 100x cuter than T'Pol). Phlox is probably the best character though.

[El Barto]

Different question: Did any captain ever consciously sacrifice a crew member to save the rest? The only instance I can think of is Troi's officer training, where sending Geordi into that tube would save the rest but kill him. But that was hypothetical; did anybody ever do it? Every episode seems to be about risking everything just to save that one guy.

Kirk jettisoned Finney during the ion storm. The fact that Finney faked his own death doesn't change the fact that Kirk actually did hit the button.

[Kotowboy]

Wasn't there that one episode with the girl who did the Starburst manoeuvre ? Picard pretended to hate her to make her fight back ? 

I might be mixing two episodes together ?

Anyway - Picard definitely sent someone on an away mission knowing full well they might not come back - and they didn't.

[Orbert]

That's similar, but not the same thing.  Any mission can be dangerous, and there's always a risk that you might not come back, but a commanding officer has to give the order anyway.  Ensign Sito knew the risks and accepted them.  The odds weren't great, but they were non-zero, so it's not the same as sacrificing someone -- literally sending them to their certain death -- in order to save the rest of the crew or away team or whatever.

[rumborak]

Yeah, up the long ladder doesn't count. They had her return all planned out in that capsule, and it was only because of the Cardassian's target practice that she died. It was a dangerous mission, but they all considered it a high chance she might make it back.

It's a bummer they didn't explore the "sacrificial lamb" angle more, because it could have given a shit-ton of depth to the captain who would have done it. Instead they pounded on that "that's not how humanity works" angle, whereas that's *exactly* how humanity works when push comes to shove. Every military leader in this world has had to send troops into a hopeless battle, only to gain a tactical advantage.

[El Barto]

Oh yeah, Kirk sent Spock into the giant amoeba when there was virtually no chance of survival. I'd say that's two for Kirk.

Problem is that they all tended to assume responsibility for the unsurvivable stuff themselves.

[jammindude]

Do red shirts count?   

[rumborak]

It's really interesting, all the valid examples come from TOS. In that sense, Kirk was the most believable captain of them all.
Regarding red shirts, didn't they all just die because of "plot-required accidents"? Did Kirk specifically send someone to their deaths?

[El Barto]

Archer had the cloned Tripp killed to save the more important Tripp. Janeway had the merged Tuvok/Neelix killed to restore the two originals. Both instances were done because the crew/mission necessitated it.

[rumborak]

I know what you mean, but there's always that caveat. It was a cloned Tripp, it was a freaky Neevok. There was always that foreseeable happy ending.
But, especially the Neevok example was good, because they killed a being that was never coming back in that specific form again.

[El Barto]

Yeah, a big caveat. At the same time in both cases they killed a perfectly valid and viable person off, and in both cases they told the guys "really, really sorry, but you're just not as important to the mission as who we're trading you for." Not the same thing as sending a good friend off in a shuttlecraft not expecting him to survive, but still a harshly pragmatic act.

[Kotowboy]

Of course that's correct, but it doesn't change the fact that Annorax was a dumbass.

ANNORAX

[rumborak]

Every time I see that episode I have to think of that
So, do people who don't like the episode Anoraknophobia?

[Kotowboy]

Every time I see that episode I have to think of that
So, do people who don't like the episode Anoraknophobia?

Isn't that people who don't like spiders in their jackets ?

[rumborak]

Umm....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoraknophobia

[BlobVanDam]

Every time I see that episode I have to think of that
So, do people who don't like the episode Anoraknophobia?

When I hear Annorax, I think anorexia.

[Kotowboy]

Watching "Cause and Effect" - the one with the Reliant looking ship that smashes the Enterprise over and over.


It's a good episode for Gates McFadden.

I wonder if they filmed each "scene" X amount of times and then moved on to the next one.


I like how they work the number 3 into the next loop.

[El Barto]

According to M-A each run through was unique. They were shot differently and there were additions to each one. Also shows one of the scenes being shot from two different cameras to facilitate using unique takes. Looks like they blew up 4 different enterprise models to make each explosion unique, as well.

[Kotowboy]

Each take is obviously different but I wonder if they filmed each scene a number of times in a row. That would make most sense.

[rumborak]

I would assume so, yeah. That way they can make sure their performances really match up too.