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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: npiazza91 on November 05, 2014, 07:08:43 PM
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I have heard not only from these boards, but from showing DT to people I know, that some of them just can't stand Labrie's voice. I asked a few people for reasons and they say it's when he draws out his singing notes, he sounds annoying. Some examples are "Take Away My Paaaaaaiiiiiiiin!", "Voices reapeaaaaaaaaaaattttting meeeeeeee!", and pretty much the whole chorus of ITNOG. People don't seem to like the way his voice sounds when he draws out his notes. I personally think that's the best part of his voice to be honest. He's an amazing singer.
From my experience, the people I show DT to, either love it or hate it. In your experience, when you showed DT to people you know, what were the main complaints of the people that didn't like it? Is it always his voice, or have you heard other complaints? Also, so this thread doesn't feel so negative, feel free to share what they DID like about it. Literally everyone I showed DT to admitted that they were talented, or "talented as f-" (quote from my friend), even the ones that didn't like it.
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He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly
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People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.
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People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.
Literally everything you say is false.
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He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly
The hair metal thing is true...it makes me so mad. Reason being: SO many people love Iron Maiden. I never hear anyone complain about Bruce's voice. People always praise them. Why, then, do people have to go and hate on James for sounding this way? His voice is no more consistently high-pitched than Bruce Dickinson. How did Iron Maiden end up being so well-received, if so many people don't like this kind of singing?
To the original poster: I, too, had countless friends say that they love DT's instrumentation, but can't get past James's voice.
I can actually understand where they are coming from if they're referring to their earlier works. I don't personally agree with them of course, but I see how it wouldn't be everyone's thing.
However, I think James's voice has gotten much more "tolerable" to a casual listener in their post-Awake years. The older stuff just had more of a hint of the hair-metal, operatic thing going on.
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I think Bruce Dickinson is exempt because they did this stuff a long time before hair metal existed. He's also not really high-pitched, just very "classical". Also, Dickinson never looked hair metal either, whereas James had this happen (https://carlbegai.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/WinterRosebw.jpg).
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His breathy, almost feminine sounding moments are what I dislike the most. However, I still think he's a great singer. I can understand why some people may not like his singing but saying that he can't sing couldn't be further from the truth.
An ex girlfriend of mine said once, "Who told this guy he could sing?" :lol I laughed and said, "No one told him anything because he already knows he can sing." :p
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I'm still trying to get my buddy into DT. He's a bit of a metal head, so naturally, he loves the shredding and all that. The one time he actually commented on LaBrie, he said, "Man, I'm telling you, this vocalist. His voice is softer than Geddy Lee..."
Which it's really not, but with that alone, he didn't need to finish his thought, I got the gist that he didn't dig it. I'm not giving up though.
My whole issue with the whole Hair Metal comparison is that first of all, I've never considered Iron Maiden Hair Metal. They're not. I just wanted to get that out of the way before we move on.
Second, most of the Hair Metal bands out there, they didn't really take care of themselves too well. So it's funny, when you listen to guys like Don Dokken or Joey Tempest, they can't hit those high notes anymore, and for a lot of them, their whole timbre became much deeper due to drinking and smoking in their hay day, or just improper technique or whatnot. So as high vocals went out of fashion, it was almost like they unwittingly adapted. Not that Dokken or Europe are topping the charts or anything, hell, most people probably don't know that Europe has put out some really good songs in the past few years, they just want to hear The Final Countdown.
But anyway, the point is that not a lot of those Hair Metal guys actually retained their timbre or pitch (or relevance). And even Geddy Lee sounds a lot deeper now than he did back in his "Fly By Night" days. I guess people just aren't used to higher vocals when it comes to a more modern sound like DT's. Screw the haters though. Most of them really don't know what they're talking about. I mean, it's a matter of personal taste to say one doesn't like JLB's voice, but it's a different matter entirely to say "he can't sing", which is... Well, it's just plain untrue.
An ex girlfriend of mine said once, "Who told this guy he could sing?" :lol I laughed and said, "No one told him anything because he already knows he can sing." :p
Is that why she's your EX-girlfriend? Although honestly, that's such a pompous thing to say, I have a feeling I'd be even more hostile.
"He doesn't need your permission to sing, bitch. Let's see you try and sing these songs!" :lol
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He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly
The hair metal thing is true...it makes me so mad. Reason being: SO many people love Iron Maiden. I never hear anyone complain about Bruce's voice. People always praise them. Why, then, do people have to go and hate on James for sounding this way? His voice is no more consistently high-pitched than Bruce Dickinson. How did Iron Maiden end up being so well-received, if so many people don't like this kind of singing?
Bruce Dickinson and JLB are nothing alike. The only comparison is that they have an operatic style. Everything else is completely different.
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The 1st song I ever heard of DT where JLB's singing actually fit well with the music was Solitary Shell. That's pretty much my 1st impression of him as a singer. And then I heard the Impermanent Resonance album and I thought, man, if he was not in DT, this is totally the music that fits well with his voice, and some people do not really like that style that IR was going for.
I like the style of his voice though. I don't know what they are complaining about.
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I love the voice JLB has now, he sounds perfect. I can't be the only one who thinks he is getting better each album?!
There have been times I thought he didn't sound too great, but he did overcome a lot from his food poisoning outbreak years ago. :smiley:
Sometimes his talking at concerts is a little corny, but we are there to hear him sing and the band perform. :)
I remember hearing he was from a band that did a lot of Journey covers, and the Journey cover and the other covers on A Change Of Seasons sound great.
Personal opinion is just that, and DT have 25+ years of changes for people to like, love or hate, and JLB seems like an easy target to pick on.
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Haha, this is recognizable. I'm actually offended every time when someone doesn't like JLB's voice - I start defending him XD
It's most of the time the reason people don't like DT in my area as well, which disappoints me. Because you miss so much of their brilliant music only because of that.
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I think the high tenor and femininity things are not so problematic for mainstream listeners; nowadays the lion's share of pop singers are tenors who use their voice in a very effeminate way. So I think many people have grown used to that through exposure. However, most pop singers do use a pure falsetto when they sing very high (think Matthew Bellamy) while Labrie uses a more mixed voice which may sound unfamiliar to mainstream folks.
Labrie's inconsistency with regard to pitch is I think a more likely factor. While he has improved quite a bit, in the past there were regularly concerts which were just really not good, and even nowadays he's often ever so slightly off pitch. Less musically inclined people may not be able to tell this explicitly, but they can tell that there's something off.
What could also turn people off is the way he shapes his vowels. To maintain that mixed voice when he goes a bit higher he has to modify his vowels (quite extremely sometimes). Combine this with the fact that sometimes he has to strain to reach high notes and a wide vibrato I can see why people would dislike his sound. Especially non-musicians who don't recognise the difficulty of what he's doing may simply think he's an unskilled singer (which I don't agree with, for clarity).
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He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly
Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge
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Well, one of my friends doesn't like Dickonson's voice either. He LOVES Paschendale though. It's one of his favorite songs. So he can listen to Maiden, but not DT. It's funny because I agree that Dicksonson's voice sounds funny when he tries to go really high in the newer albums.
As for Labrie, he literally gives me chills sometimes. His performance in Hollow Years is amazing, same with the 'beautiful agony" section of ANTR, and pretty much anything on Awake.
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Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge
I think we discussed this in the other thread, lol, but again, it really depends on how you define rock'n'roll edge.. Metal edge, maybe. But I keep going back to comparing JLB to Robert Plant, and for all the praises that Plant gets, through his career, JLB has had more power and more grit, accompanying that amazing range. Way more "edge" than Robert Plant did in Zeppelin's glory days, and people hail Zeppelin as one of the best Rock'n'Roll bands ever.
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Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge
I think we discussed this in the other thread, lol, but again, it really depends on how you define rock'n'roll edge.. Metal edge, maybe. But I keep going back to comparing JLB to Robert Plant, and for all the praises that Plant gets, through his career, JLB has had more power and more grit, accompanying that amazing range. Way more "edge" than Robert Plant did in Zeppelin's glory days, and people hail Zeppelin as one of the best Rock'n'Roll bands ever.
Let's not get crazy; I TOTALLY get why Plant doesn't want to do a long-term Zep reunion. He's like Toby Keith: "Not as good as I once was, but once, I'm as good as I ever was". Some of the bootlegs from the 71-73 era, are just INCENDIARY. And he has had moments since: I saw Page/Plant in Nassau Coliseum, and during... I think it was Calling To You, they stretched it out a little and did the interpolation thing. At one point it was very moody, and he was sort of mumbling "Break on Through" by the Doors, and the lights were low, and he did a little of the verse of "For What It's Worth" by the Buffalo Springfield, then back to the chorus of BOT... then the lights went bright white, Plant's at the front of the stage in that classic pose, and at the top of his lungs he screamed "STOP, HEY... What's that sound?" and it was ELECTRIC. Power, tone, range, it was everything you would expect from the so-called ROCK GOD.
As for LaBrie, he is my favorite part of the DT sound and what separates DT from the pack for me (along with MP, of course). The ONLY thing that really bothers me about LaBrie is live when he puts on the exaggerated Rock and Roll voice... you know, pronouncing Detroit as "DEE-troit". Or the lame rock and roll expressions... you know, "we gonna rock and roll to-NIGH-EEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAATTTTT! YeaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!" Shut up. I think the comparisons with Dickinson are not fair (BD is in my view the greatest metal frontman of all time) because the material is different, and their voices suit the material. I'm not sure I want to hear Bruce singing "I know it's easier... to walk away, than look it in the eye". Or "To Live Forever".
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Let's not get crazy; I TOTALLY get why Plant doesn't want to do a long-term Zep reunion. He's like Toby Keith: "Not as good as I once was, but once, I'm as good as I ever was". Some of the bootlegs from the 71-73 era, are just INCENDIARY. And he has had moments since: I saw Page/Plant in Nassau Coliseum, and during... I think it was Calling To You, they stretched it out a little and did the interpolation thing. At one point it was very moody, and he was sort of mumbling "Break on Through" by the Doors, and the lights were low, and he did a little of the verse of "For What It's Worth" by the Buffalo Springfield, then back to the chorus of BOT... then the lights went bright white, Plant's at the front of the stage in that classic pose, and at the top of his lungs he screamed "STOP, HEY... What's that sound?" and it was ELECTRIC. Power, tone, range, it was everything you would expect from the so-called ROCK GOD.
Well, I wouldn't know from live shows, as I've never actually seen or heard Zeppelin live, but from their albums, honestly, aside from the actual range, and those high notes, I wouldn't call his singing anything too amazing. It's not like, say, Freddie Mercury, where all you have to do is hear him on an album and it's pretty easy to understand why people loved him. Interestingly enough, it were the Queen live shows that didn't really show off his voice too much. His stage presence, hell yeah, but his voice? Always better to listen to on a studio recording, IMO.
As for LaBrie, he is my favorite part of the DT sound and what separates DT from the pack for me (along with MP, of course). The ONLY thing that really bothers me about LaBrie is live when he puts on the exaggerated Rock and Roll voice... you know, pronouncing Detroit as "DEE-troit". Or the lame rock and roll expressions... you know, "we gonna rock and roll to-NIGH-EEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAATTTTT! YeaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!" Shut up. I think the comparisons with Dickinson are not fair (BD is in my view the greatest metal frontman of all time) because the material is different, and their voices suit the material. I'm not sure I want to hear Bruce singing "I know it's easier... to walk away, than look it in the eye". Or "To Live Forever".
Well, Dream Theater's diversity is another issue. I mean, I've known people, non-rock fans, who immediately fell in love with songs like I Walk Beside You and Hollow Years. But you put on The Glass Prison for them, and it would do absolutely nothing for them.
So with DT's huge musical diversity, yes, if Bruce Dickinson was to sing DT songs, he'd sound great on some, and not so much on others. I mean, to counterpoint what you said, imagine Bruce Dickinson singing "Listen when the prophet speaks to you. Killing in the name of God." I think it would sound pretty amazing.
In that respect though, when you consider songs like ITNOG and Surrounded, JLB is one of the most versatile and well-rounded vocalists out there. Not a lot of people could do justice to every "color" of the Dream Theater spectrum.
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TGP, but now you're just defining the goalpost of "DT singing" to suit exactly to James' singing. It's not that JP and JR just write random shit and then say to James "here you go, sing it now", and only James with his vast glorious range is able to sing it. They write the melodies to suit his strengths (high-pitched), and stay away from his weaknesses (low-pitched). If Dickinson was their singer they would write melodies to suit his strengths.
DT's music by no means *demands* the singing style they employ with James.
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TGP, but now you're just defining the goalpost of "DT singing" to suit exactly to James' singing. It's not that JP and JR just write random shit and then say to James "here you go, sing it now", and only James with his vast glorious range is able to sing it. They write the melodies to suit his strengths (high-pitched), and stay away from his weaknesses (low-pitched). If Dickinson was their singer they would write melodies to suit his strengths.
DT's music by no means *demands* the singing style they employ with James.
Well, sure, but I mean, if you want to rewrite the vocal melodies for Surrounded or The Answer Lies Within to suit Bruce Dickinson, I guess it's possible, but they would be very, very different songs, evoking a different mood and different kind of energy. You can do that with anything. One could rewrite the vocal melodies for Master of Puppets to suit Backstreet Boys, but it would be a very different song then, even if the instrumental portion of it remained exactly the same.
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I would posit that in most cases, an equally as good song would come out if the melody was written to suit a different singer. Within bounds of course, but Dickinson clearly has the vocal diversity to make for very interesting vocal lines. And, he would get the edginess and low-end across better than James.
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Well, I don't know about everyone else comparing the two, but I never meant to say that JLB is the best at every style of singing he does. I think he's incredibly versatile, and one of the most versatile singers out there. Maybe as versatile as Dickinson, but in a different set of areas.
Anyway, what I'm saying is, yes, Dickinson has more edge to his voice, but does that mean that JLB doesn't have any at all? Or that he doesn't have enough for his genre? I wouldn't say so. I mean, unless the amount of 'edge' that Bruce Dickinson has is the absolute minimum requirement for some people. But by my tastes, I think JLB has more than enough grit and edge to his voice, even in the lower end, such as on songs like Lost Not Forgotten.
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Well, this thread is about how people complain about James. At this point in the discussion it's rather clear that James has clear weaknesses in areas, and if one thinks they are a requirement for the genre he sings in, you won't like his singing.
And yes, I think quite a few people would put Bruce's amount of grit as the minimum for the metal genre.
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Everyone has weakness in areas though. Again, let's go back to the subject of DT's versatility. DT is about more than just Metal. They have strong roots in the Prog Rock genre, and if you listen to bands like Rush, Kansas, Journey, etc, LaBrie's voice fits in quite well with those genres. Better than someone like Bruce Dickinson or especially someone even more aggressive would.
And if you take the full spectrum of DT's music, from their softest or Proggiest, to their most aggressive or most Metal, I would honestly say there's probably nobody on earth who exists or has ever existed, whose voice would fit in absolutely perfectly at both ends of the spectrum. Not LaBrie, not Dickinson, not Freddy Mercury, nobody. You'd need two sets of Vocal Cords for that (not including the false folds).
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People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.
I don't think anyone here is shocked by that.
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I think Bruce Dickinson is exempt because they did this stuff a long time before hair metal existed. He's also not really high-pitched, just very "classical". Also, Dickinson never looked hair metal either, whereas James had this happen (https://carlbegai.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/WinterRosebw.jpg).
My whole issue with the whole Hair Metal comparison is that first of all, I've never considered Iron Maiden Hair Metal. They're not. I just wanted to get that out of the way before we move on.
Yeah you guys are right, Maiden was definitely before the hair metal era.
I guess I just meant that, regardless of genre, I rarely hear people complain about Bruce's voice, but always hear people complain about James'.
I know this is only my opinion, but I find Bruce intolerable. I guess I'm no better than one of our friend's who can't get past James's voice, only with Maiden instead of DT.
I'm baffled as to how so many praise Maiden, but so many bash DT because of James.
Could the reason be that Maiden existed at a time when this kind of singing was the "norm"? If so, I suppose I could understand.
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He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly
The hair metal thing is true...it makes me so mad. Reason being: SO many people love Iron Maiden. I never hear anyone complain about Bruce's voice. People always praise them. Why, then, do people have to go and hate on James for sounding this way? His voice is no more consistently high-pitched than Bruce Dickinson. How did Iron Maiden end up being so well-received, if so many people don't like this kind of singing?
Bruce Dickinson and JLB are nothing alike. The only comparison is that they have an operatic style. Everything else is completely different.
This operatic style is the exact thing I was targeting when making the point.
People hate on James for having an operatic style. This is the reason my friends do not like DT.
But people praise Maiden all of the time, and they are one of the most popular metal bands of all time. Yet I do not hear people degrading Bruce for his operatic style.
It almost seems like people are looking for a reason to hate DT :-\
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I love Labrie's voice, I can't identify with this thread at all. I just watched "Breaking the Fourth Wall", and James really shines.
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Could the reason be that Maiden existed at a time when this kind of singing was the "norm"? If so, I suppose I could understand.
Maybe they just came out in an era where people were a little more receptive, without so many pre-conceptions about what someone SHOULD sound like.
I mean hell, look at Ozzy. I can find him tolerable, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I call his voice pleasant, or call him a particularly good singer. But we're all used to him now because Black Sabbath was such a huge band, and still are one of the quintessential bands to familiarize with when getting into Heavy Metal.
What about AC/DC? I don't know at what point that became considered "good singing" but I still can't stand it.
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Could the reason be that Maiden existed at a time when this kind of singing was the "norm"? If so, I suppose I could understand.
Maybe they just came out in an era where people were a little more receptive, without so many pre-conceptions about what someone SHOULD sound like.
I mean hell, look at Ozzy. I can find him tolerable, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I call his voice pleasant, or call him a particularly good singer. But we're all used to him now because Black Sabbath was such a huge band, and still are one of the quintessential bands to familiarize with when getting into Heavy Metal.
What about AC/DC? I don't know at what point that became considered "good singing" but I still can't stand it.
Very good point about Ozzy. Especially considering that I love Ozzy, despite my intolerance to Dickinson.
I guess every voice needs to be looked at as being distinctive and unique, despite its similarities to other voices. It's too hard to say that someone who dislikes one voice, should dislike another by default.
And AC/DC totally crossed my mind too. That is worse than Dickinson to me!
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Very good point about Ozzy. Especially considering that I love Ozzy, despite my intolerance to Dickinson.
I guess every voice needs to be looked at as being distinctive and unique, despite its similarities to other voices. It's too hard to say that someone who dislikes one voice, should dislike another by default.
And AC/DC totally crossed my mind too. That is worse than Dickinson to me!
Yeah, but at the same time, there are certain voice qualities that fall into some areas of being generic or similar. I mean, I don't think it's a far off assumption that if you like Queensryche, and like Geoff Tate's voice, you might also enjoy Fates Warning and Ray Adler's voice. They have a similar range, similar timbre and similar qualities, and I can understand how an untrained ear might even confuse the two, during certain points in their careers. So it's understandable why some voices are easier palatable by the general public, while others have something so unique it's jarring at first, especially when combined with certain styles, which is what I think the case with LaBrie is. It really was jarring to hear him on songs like Strange Deja-Vu when I furst heard DT, whereas, his more gentle tone and style, like on Through Her Eyes, I actually found pleasant right off the bat because the song was a softer ballad, and not overdriven headbanger.
The truth is, while I never outright disliked Bruce Dickinson's voice, and can appreciate his range and power, I never found him to be that good of a singer. Even now, I mean, his voice has a very harsh quality to it. Even on the 80s albums, he sounded like he was a 40 year old smoker to me. I always thought it was serviceable, and not all that jarring, but I never thought he was that great of a singer. I could easily nitpick at his style the way people do JLB.
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I remember when I made a presentation at school about Take the Time in the music lesson and my music teacher was really impressed about JLB's voice. My classmates were not so impressed at all, everybody was only confused about how many parts there are in the song. :lol
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I remember when I made a presentation at school about Take the Time in the music lesson and my music teacher was really impressed about JLB's voice. My classmates were not so impressed at all, everybody was only confused about how many parts there are in the song. :lol
It's funny, but kind of sad at the same time, haha.
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People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.
The majority of DT fans have bad taste in music then.
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Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge
I think we discussed this in the other thread, lol, but again, it really depends on how you define rock'n'roll edge.. Metal edge, maybe. But I keep going back to comparing JLB to Robert Plant, and for all the praises that Plant gets, through his career, JLB has had more power and more grit, accompanying that amazing range. Way more "edge" than Robert Plant did in Zeppelin's glory days, and people hail Zeppelin as one of the best Rock'n'Roll bands ever.
Funny. I don't agree with that at all. James may have better range than Plant, but they're not even in the same league in my opinion. Plant is a legend. Only on Awake does James sing with any "edge" at all. Plant's voice always had a passionate bluesy edge, at least during Plant's prime. Not only does plant hit all the notes with a great rock timbre, but does other things like ad lib, which James has never really done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3ABDzdLls
Same with Dickinson. Dickinson may not have had the range of pre-accident James, but Dickinson brought energy and punk rock edge to Iron Maiden. Sometimes he didn't hit all the notes even on the records, but the way he screamed and ad-libbed and improvised is something that James has never really dabbled in.
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Agree with Skeever 100% on Plant.
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Funny. I don't agree with that at all. James may have better range than Plant, but they're not even in the same league in my opinion. Plant is a legend. Only on Awake does James sing with any "edge" at all. Plant's voice always had a passionate bluesy edge, at least during Plant's prime. Not only does plant hit all the notes with a great rock timbre, but does other things like ad lib, which James has never really done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3ABDzdLls
I guess we just define edge differently. I'd say that whatever best qualities that Plant had back in those days, are the things that JLB has always had plenty of. The whole ad-libbing, and that Axl Rose type Rock'n'Roll bombast I never really liked in general.
But I mean, if that's what defines a good Rock'n'Roll singer, then yeah, I understand what you're saying. I guess Freddie Mercury did that too. But this is going back to that whole conversation of differentiating vocalists from front men, and singing from stage presence. Ad-Libbing is a very Front Man thing to do, it's screaming out to the crowd to get the excitement level up.
I mean, it's the same as saying that John Petrucci is not one of guitar greats because he doesn't windmill, or spin his hair when he plays. DT was always more about precision, than about show boating.
Same with Dickinson. Dickinson may not have had the range of pre-accident James, but Dickinson brought energy and punk rock edge to Iron Maiden. Sometimes he didn't hit all the notes even on the records, but the way he screamed and ad-libbed and improvised is something that James has never really dabbled in.
Sure, if you like that sort of thing.
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BTW, I'm not trying to say that James isn't great, or good. He's just different. He's the guy you want if you want to hear someone go into the studio, layer his voice beautifully, sing with all these different sounding voices and phrasings, and really be creative and technical as a singer. The thing is, that only really can be done with a genre like progressive metal, and isn't as appealing to the rock world in general. From what I remember, James attributes wanting to join DT to exactly that: the freedom being in the band would give him to really branch out with his voice, not just be another dime-a-dozen wailer.
Again, not saying he isn't great. He just doesn't belong in the same Pantheon as Plant and Dickinson. He belongs in a different pantheon. A more exclusive one, that doesn't appeal to everyone. Should make sense. We're talking about DT.
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My wife is the finest singer I have ever heard in person, and one of the best I've ever heard. She would be in to DT, but hate's JLB's voice. I think it goes perfectly with the instrumentation myself, so it's kind of a bummer we can't enjoy it together. Interestingly enough, she has found the last 2 albums at least passable, and actually loves Breaking All Illusions.
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Again, not saying he isn't great. He just doesn't belong in the same Pantheon as Plant and Dickinson. He belongs in a different pantheon. A more exclusive one, that doesn't appeal to everyone. Should make sense. We're talking about DT.
Sure, but when it comes to actual singing, whatever pantheon Plant and Dickinson are in, I don't think it's anything that great. When it comes to just hearing what they're singing, on an album. Not that what they do is bad, but like I said, the ad-libbing, screaming out parts instead of singing them properly, I don't think it's a huge detriment, but I can't fathom saying, "I think Bruce Dickinson is better because he screams out some parts instead of singing the proper note." That's not WHY people like him. It's what he brings to the show, the stage presence, the energy, the intensity, that's what's really great about him.
But even with guys like Brian Johnson for example, honestly, I can't stand listening to him. I don't like his singing voice at all. That being said, there is a great amount of technique and craftsmanship that goes into what he does, and I fully recognize and understand that. It may not be my cup of tea, but I can at least appreciate and respect it. And that's something that JLB is lacking from a lot of people. I'm not saying they have to like him, I just wish they understood just how much technique and craftsmanship goes into his singing, and just how skillfull of a singer he actually is.
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Okay, but just because you devalue the things guys like Plant were known for, doesn't mean that those things don't count.
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Okay, but just because you devalue the things guys like Plant were known for, doesn't mean that those things don't count.
Well, the same thing goes for LaBrie. Except most people will sing high praises about Plant, whereas LaBrie is just plain underrated.
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I don't think you're getting it. People are saying how LaBrie doesn't match up to Plant, and you're responding "of course he does!", and then as people go into WHY James doesn't match up to Plant, you are saying "well, those things don't matter because I don't like them". That is what I'm perceiving anyway. Of course LaBrie is going to be "underrated", because what he does isn't something that has mass appeal. I have been a DT fan for over a decade and fans have ALWAYS understood the band overall just do not have the type of appeal that is going to make them a breakaway commercial success. Why bother with apologetics? The band are who they are. They appeal to the audience they appeal to. No need to get upset because you feel other people don't rate the band or the singer as highly as you think they should. Just acknowledge you like something that has more limited, exclusive appeal, sit back and enjoy.
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I don't think you're getting it. People are saying how LaBrie doesn't match up to Plant, and you're responding "of course he does!", and then as people go into WHY James doesn't match up to Plant, you are saying "well, those things don't matter because I don't like them". That is what I'm perceiving anyway.
But, LaBrie has plenty of qualities that Plant couldn't ever match either. Listen to Live at the Marquee, and I'm sorry, but LaBrie's performance on it absolutely destroys anything Plant has ever done. Both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, but nothing about one or the other makes them definitively a better artist. Everything is a matter of taste. I mean, someone could easily say that Kurt Cobain or Alice Cooper is better than either of them because they could list a thousand qualities that they prefer that Neither LaBrie nor Plant have.
No, the reason this whole argument came up is because you said you think Plant has more 'edginess' than LaBrie, and I think we're talking about completely different things. When I say LaBrie has much more edginess and grit to his style than Plant did, I was talking about something completely different than ad-libbing, or rock'n'roll appeal that you mentioned.
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I'm not talking about "definitively better", I'm talking about mass appeal.
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I'm not talking about "definitively better", I'm talking about mass appeal.
Well, I don't hold mass appeal at much value.
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I don't know how to respond to that, TGP. The thread is all about mass appeal. I have been a DT fan for a good bit of time, and let me tell you,as a DT fan, you should know that DT and JLB have limited appeal, and always have, but that's kind of what makes us special as a fandom - the way we as a group recognized the value of this band. If you're really going to get that bent out of shape when the typical music listener posts why they don't like JLB or DT, you are going to find yourself being a very defensive DT fan.
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I'm not getting bent out of shape at all. I just don't understand why mass appeal is a factor in a discussion about how good of a singer JLB is. Yes, this thread is about various reasons why people don't like JLB. And yes, I'm not an idiot, I know he doesn't have the mass appeal of, say, Robert Plant or someone like that. But that's my whole point: he deserves better.
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I tend to like the more "unique" vocalists that not many people I know seems to like. Smashing Pumpkins, Rush, Megadeth. On the other hand, I hate the vocals in bands like Avenged Sevenfold and such. I think Five Finger Death Punch is the only modern mainstream metal band that I actually find the vocals to be pretty much perfect with the songs. I just wish they were slightly more thrash, a little less mainstream metal.
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People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.
The majority of DT fans have bad taste in music then.
lol probably. :justjen
Anyway. I find this discussion intriguing. I don't have too much to say I have many opinions on some of these vocalists. :corn
At the start of my DT experience I never had a problem with James' mid range, it was the high stuff that I struggled with. The kinda stuff he doesn't do very often anymore. So it was I&W, Awake, some of FII and he was sometimes going for those really high moments in SFAM and SDOIT which I was not a fan of. But luckily the rest of the band kept me intrigued and eventually I grew to appreciate James voice after seeing some live stuff and becoming familiar with their discography. Funnily enough, I now find those sections where he goes for it really impressive and a highlight vocal moment. It's bizarre, because I can hardly pinpoint why I didn't like it before other than it being unfamiliar perhaps compared to the vocals I was used to.
I also struggled with Bruce Dickinson, hated the "wailing". Now I think he's a vocal powerhouse and a very impressive singer.
I love Geddy Lee and always have, but I think when I got into Rush, I knew what I was getting myself into so Geddy didn't throw me off too much. :lol I actually prefer his modern voice though, he's not screeching at the top of his lungs as often. Clearly channeling some Robert Plant styles but I mean, their s/t and Fly by Night (and even a few after that) just aren't as accessible as the 90s/00s stuff if you asked me. And that's probably the opposite of what a hardcore Rush fan would say. But I only got into them around Clockwork Angels (which I also think is one of the best albums).
I like voices having an 'edge' to them too. And I think JLB has plenty of this, more so than he's given credit for in here I believe. I point to the first verse of Behind the Veil as a great example of this which reflects the more modern version of this style, as opposed or related to the gritty Awake style harshness that's well known and easily recognised.
I'd also argue his low range can even be not too bad, but he doesn't use it very often. See A Rite of Passage verse 1.
For what it's worth in judging different vocal styles, I really DON'T like old school Axel Rose. At least when he's 'whining' like he always did back in the day. (See Welcome to the Jungle, Paradise City, Knockin' on Heavens door). And yet, Chinese Democracy he's using a low range voice that I'd never heard before! And a more aggressive harsher style to his mid and high range. Vastly improved his vocal technique. Too bad that album was a bit of a commercial mess but I enjoyed some of it.
I tell you a singer I can never accept though, and that's the ACDC singer, couldn't even tell you his name because I don't know and just don't care and never will. :P Harsh reality, I can respect what he's going for and appreciate it's place in Rock n Roll, but personally, I can't stand it. And I'm only complaining about the vocalist here, don't get me started on the guitarist and drummer. :lol
Ozzy. This guy is all over the place, but I've never had a problem with his style for some reason. It's certainly unique and memorable, there's something there that appeals with his tone. I don't think anyone tries to claim that he's an expert or the best singer or anything though. Maybe that's why he's so accepted, because his vocals aren't put on a pedestal. It's more about the music and the songs in general.
M Shadows. Well... I actually really like harsh vocals that are also melodic. And this guy has a powerful voice for sure. But he gets a bit whiny sometimes. Come to think of it, even the guitars in this band are whining, and those backup vocalists my god they can whine. A bunch of whiners, but that's probably starting to get beside the point. :mehlin Nah they're alright though, they've had a few pretty cool songs. Wasn't too much of a fan of the new album though. Nightmare was definitely better.
Russell Allen is probably a perfect example of the type of harsh/melodic vocalist that I appreciate the style of. But we're talking Symphony X here, not that other unspeakable project.
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But, LaBrie has plenty of qualities that Plant couldn't ever match either. Listen to Live at the Marquee, and I'm sorry, but LaBrie's performance on it absolutely destroys anything Plant has ever done. Both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, but nothing about one or the other makes them definitively a better artist. Everything is a matter of taste. I mean, someone could easily say that Kurt Cobain or Alice Cooper is better than either of them because they could list a thousand qualities that they prefer that Neither LaBrie nor Plant have.
No, the reason this whole argument came up is because you said you think Plant has more 'edginess' than LaBrie, and I think we're talking about completely different things. When I say LaBrie has much more edginess and grit to his style than Plant did, I was talking about something completely different than ad-libbing, or rock'n'roll appeal that you mentioned.
Well, I agree with your support of LaBrie, but with deep, and sincere, respect, there are better arguments. You can't really say "I've never heard Plant live" then say "LaBrie's performance destroys anything Plant has ever done". Look, I like DT more than Zeppelin, and I always thought Plant was the weak link in Zeppelin (still do to an extent) and Plant is not in my top ten singers of all time, but there is no denying that there was a reason Zeppelin was (and in some quarters still is) one of the biggest bands in the history of rock and roll. Watch the DVD of the Danish show. Listen to "How The West Was Won". Hell, even on the much-maligned Song Remains the Same, "No Quarter" is jaw-dropping.
I think we're really comparing apples and oranges, and disparaging the orange to do it. I'm a LaBrie fan boy (as a singer; I don't care for him as a person) and he is the reason I am a DT fan to this day. I think his versatility is unmatched (I think I might have already said in this thread, what other singer as credibly covered a list of singers including Gillan, Osbourne, Dio, Mercury, John, Plant, Gilmour, Waters, Dickinson, Hetfield, Bono, Walsh, Perry... I'm sure there's more, but at least three of those guys ARE on my top 10 list). But in the grand scheme of things, he has gaps. Comparing Babe Ruth to Derek Jeter, Ruth wins hands down, but that doesn't make Jeter a bad player, you know?
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Well, I agree with your support of LaBrie, but with deep, and sincere, respect, there are better arguments. You can't really say "I've never heard Plant live" then say "LaBrie's performance destroys anything Plant has ever done".
Okay, that's fair. What I meant was, the vocals on DT's albums, especially I&W and Awake, destroy the vocals on any Led Zeppelin album. In my opinion, of course.
I think we're really comparing apples and oranges, and disparaging the orange to do it. I'm a LaBrie fan boy (as a singer; I don't care for him as a person) and he is the reason I am a DT fan to this day. I think his versatility is unmatched (I think I might have already said in this thread, what other singer as credibly covered a list of singers including Gillan, Osbourne, Dio, Mercury, John, Plant, Gilmour, Waters, Dickinson, Hetfield, Bono, Walsh, Perry... I'm sure there's more, but at least three of those guys ARE on my top 10 list). But in the grand scheme of things, he has gaps. Comparing Babe Ruth to Derek Jeter, Ruth wins hands down, but that doesn't make Jeter a bad player, you know?
You're right, and I'm sorry I had to resort to disparaging the "oragnes." All I'm trying to get across is I think LaBrie deserves the same kind of credit and respect as all those other highly acclaimed and respected vocalists. He has gaps, of course, but who doesn't? People can revere Dickinson or Ronnie James Dio as rock gods, and that's fine, I agree, but they're not perfect. They can't do everything. And they don't have to, but that doesn't stop people from revering them. But then it's like, "Well, JLB doesn't belong among them because he has flaws." But then those guys have flaws but look at what they can do right but look at what JLB does right but he has flaws but those guys do too and it's just a neverending cycle, and that's what gets kind of frustrating.
Again, I hate to discredit Plant, because I do recognize him for all he was capable of. But that "was" is another factor too.
Here's what it comes down to for me, back in JLB's hay day, the quality and power with which he could hit that F#... I have never heard anyone do it, and make it seem as effortless as JLB did. Not only that, but how many vocalists out there have had to suffer a throat injury, still come back and do 3 hour long shows, (and yes, I know JLB was in a fairly bad shape for a while, but on his good days, he still had that range), and then recover to the point of being able to hit those F#s again in their 50s? Most vocalists never have to suffer any kind of a serious throat injury, luckily for them, and they still end up losing their range by the time they're in their 40s. This doesn't discredit Plant in any way, nor does it diminish his legacy at all. But we can't take for granted how much JLB has accomplished, how far he's come and the kind of hell he persevered through in the long run, and how much he still rocks to this day. That's huge. He's not just "good for someone who recovered from an injury", or "good for someone his age", his vocals have always been impressive, no matter who you compare him to. I just think he deserves that recognition, and he really doesn't receive it outside of hardcore DT fans.
Sorry for another dissertation, lol.
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Love what he does in general. He clearly had performances that are mostly stellar (most everything on Score, definitely on his solo albums!) but he can be a bit off at times. Sometimes it's maybe the choice of notes and rhythm patterns, often some odd pronunciation thing (and I doubt it's a Canadian thing). The contrast between his work in DT (at times) and his solo work might be an indicator that it has to do with the writing process in which he still seems to be not much involved.
What makes me cringe at times are the announcements and little things between songs. Ouch. Include some body language and he seems somewhat insecure. Which, again, may not be his fault but the role that he's been handled.
To clarify: I wouldn't want to see anyone else be the DT voice at this point. I only wish he would always come across as relaxed as on his last two solo records. Excellent stuff there.
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LaBrie's voice was so far from what I was used to, so it took a while to warm up to, but the only issue I have nowadays is his live shrill voice. It can be cringe worthy at times. In studio he sounds awesome.
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LaBrie's voice was so far from what I was used to, so it took a while to warm up to, but the only issue I have nowadays is his live shrill voice. It can be cringe worthy at times. In studio he sounds awesome.
What are you referring to, specifically?
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LaBrie's voice was so far from what I was used to, so it took a while to warm up to, but the only issue I have nowadays is his live shrill voice. It can be cringe worthy at times. In studio he sounds awesome.
What are you referring to, specifically?
Maybe I didn't use the correct term, but he's very nasally live, and when he goes for high notes, it does not sound pleasant to my ears. Other times he sounds great though, so it isn't a constant thing, fortunately.
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I'm still not quite sure what you're referring to. I guess I don't have that problem. When you said Shrill, first thing that came to mind was the way he screamed "Time" in "Waiting for time to dissappear" in the Happy Holidays release of UAGM. And yeah, I didn't like that very much. Especially when he did it every single TIIIIIIME!
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I'm still not quite sure what you're referring to. I guess I don't have that problem. When you said Shrill, first thing that came to mind was the way he screamed "Time" in "Waiting for time to dissappear" in the Happy Holidays release of UAGM. And yeah, I didn't like that very much. Especially when he did it every single TIIIIIIME!
That's a very good example. Stuff like that, yeah. But then he also enunciates words in a purposely goofy manner, and that isn't appealing either.
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For a great example of shrillness, check out Live at Budokan or Chaos in Motion.
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They definitely trimmed a lot of unappealing banter out of BTFW. When you listen to the bootleg, it's that "effeminate" intonation he uses that makes it rather unpleasant to listen to.
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For a great example of shrillness, check out Live at Budokan or Chaos in Motion.
See, again you say this word, and it means something completely different to me though. We really need to stop using words like "Shrill" and "Edgy" because they aren't very clearly defined when it comes to music.
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Shrill, i.e., high pitched, loud, and thin. Pop in Budokan "In the Name of God", wait for the chorus. You'll see what I'm talking about. Also a lot of nasal tones there.
Edit: I just did the above, and all I can say is wow. I always thought Live at Budokan's vocals were very shrill and hard to listen to due to James' poor timbre. But the vocal performance actually sounds very good compared to the last three DVDs.
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Shrill, i.e., high pitched, loud, and thin. Pop in Budokan "In the Name of God", wait for the chorus. You'll see what I'm talking about. Also a lot of nasal tones there.
Edit: I just did the above, and all I can say is wow. I always thought Live at Budokan's vocals were very shrill and hard to listen to due to James' poor timbre. But the vocal performance actually sounds very good compared to the last three DVDs.
I understand what shrill means, it's just for me, it would take a hell of a lot more than that to consider someone's voice shrill. Old school Geddy Lee, maybe, but even that's not unpleasant.
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I like JLB's voice especially when he does the Awake style, not the I&W one. That said, my personal favorite rock/metal vocals, for some reason, is peak form Chris Cornell, Sunshower days.
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But then he also enunciates words in a purposely goofy manner, and that isn't appealing either.
It's not purposely goofy. He's just Canadian.
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They definitely trimmed a lot of unappealing banter out of BTFW. When you listen to the bootleg, it's that "effeminate" intonation he uses that makes it rather unpleasant to listen to.
Where can I listen to BTFW bootlegs BTW. Can't find them on YouTube and I'm really curious how JLB pulled off IT for instance.
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Well, I agree with your support of LaBrie, but with deep, and sincere, respect, there are better arguments. You can't really say "I've never heard Plant live" then say "LaBrie's performance destroys anything Plant has ever done".
Okay, that's fair. What I meant was, the vocals on DT's albums, especially I&W and Awake, destroy the vocals on any Led Zeppelin album. In my opinion, of course.
I think we're really comparing apples and oranges, and disparaging the orange to do it. I'm a LaBrie fan boy (as a singer; I don't care for him as a person) and he is the reason I am a DT fan to this day. I think his versatility is unmatched (I think I might have already said in this thread, what other singer as credibly covered a list of singers including Gillan, Osbourne, Dio, Mercury, John, Plant, Gilmour, Waters, Dickinson, Hetfield, Bono, Walsh, Perry... I'm sure there's more, but at least three of those guys ARE on my top 10 list). But in the grand scheme of things, he has gaps. Comparing Babe Ruth to Derek Jeter, Ruth wins hands down, but that doesn't make Jeter a bad player, you know?
You're right, and I'm sorry I had to resort to disparaging the "oragnes." All I'm trying to get across is I think LaBrie deserves the same kind of credit and respect as all those other highly acclaimed and respected vocalists. He has gaps, of course, but who doesn't? People can revere Dickinson or Ronnie James Dio as rock gods, and that's fine, I agree, but they're not perfect. They can't do everything. And they don't have to, but that doesn't stop people from revering them. But then it's like, "Well, JLB doesn't belong among them because he has flaws." But then those guys have flaws but look at what they can do right but look at what JLB does right but he has flaws but those guys do too and it's just a neverending cycle, and that's what gets kind of frustrating.
Again, I hate to discredit Plant, because I do recognize him for all he was capable of. But that "was" is another factor too.
Here's what it comes down to for me, back in JLB's hay day, the quality and power with which he could hit that F#... I have never heard anyone do it, and make it seem as effortless as JLB did. Not only that, but how many vocalists out there have had to suffer a throat injury, still come back and do 3 hour long shows, (and yes, I know JLB was in a fairly bad shape for a while, but on his good days, he still had that range), and then recover to the point of being able to hit those F#s again in their 50s? Most vocalists never have to suffer any kind of a serious throat injury, luckily for them, and they still end up losing their range by the time they're in their 40s. This doesn't discredit Plant in any way, nor does it diminish his legacy at all. But we can't take for granted how much JLB has accomplished, how far he's come and the kind of hell he persevered through in the long run, and how much he still rocks to this day. That's huge. He's not just "good for someone who recovered from an injury", or "good for someone his age", his vocals have always been impressive, no matter who you compare him to. I just think he deserves that recognition, and he really doesn't receive it outside of hardcore DT fans.
Sorry for another dissertation, lol.
For what it's worth, I'm with you 1000% on all of that. I've said before, when I heard "Pull Me Under" for the first time upon release (which is when I got into the band) I thought "Wow, listen to that double bass drum (though I didn't really like it at the time) and listen to that guy SING!" And when I got the album, I thought, "Wow, listen to that guy SING!". And I still think that way.
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Oh boy, this thread... :lol
I'm not nearly as big of a fan of DT as most folks here are, and a large part of that comes down to LaBrie. He's clearly gifted, no arguments there, but I find his voice to be rather harsh on the ears at times and at other times, too weak for the material he's singing over. It's like one-third of his performances actually suit the band. It's not his fault, considering the food poisoning accident, because his performance on Awake is nothing short of incredible from start-to-finish.
But I do rank a ton of other singers over him because of it. Bruce Dickinson or Ronnie James Dio may not sing as high as JLB, but they don't need to. They sound full, rich and powerful with practically everything they do sing. I saw Iron Maiden live last year and I'm not exaggerating when I say that Bruce's performance that night was spine-tingling.
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But then he also enunciates words in a purposely goofy manner, and that isn't appealing either.
It's not purposely goofy. He's just Canadian.
Hey now buddy! Come on guy! You clearly don't know what you're talkin' aboat.
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Aboot. They say aboot, not aboat.
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Aboot. They say aboot, not aboat.
I think we know what we say. It's actually more like abeut.
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Pretty sure that comparing accents is easier externally.
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Pretty sure that comparing accents is easier externally.
Only if you actually hear the proper accent, and not the "stereotypical outsider's interpretation" of that accent.
Speaking of which, I watched some footage of Dream Theater performing back in 1992, and man, JLB's Canadian accent was so much heavier back then. These days, it's not noticeable at all. Or at least, it's as "Americanized" as it gets here in Toronto. Back then, he still had that heavy small town Canuck accent.
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TGP, you better be on the debate team.
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TGP, you better be on the debate team.
Something I REALLY missed out on when I was at school, it seems.
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James' accent seems to come and go. Sometimes he has it, other times he doesn't. I've noticed it more when it's a video where someone is talking to him casually, and less when it's like a formal interview.
So I have heard three James voices - his full-on Canadian voice, his slightly more plain sounding "American" voice, and whatever the heck he has going on with his voice when he's bantering on stage.
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James' accent seems to come and go. Sometimes he has it, other times he doesn't. I've noticed it more when it's a video where someone is talking to him casually, and less when it's like a formal interview.
So I have heard three James voices - his full-on Canadian voice, his slightly more plain sounding "American" voice, and whatever the heck he has going on with his voice when he's bantering on stage.
Well, it was on stage, in 1992, when his Canuck accent was the heaviest I ever heard it.
But yeah, I guess it's entirely possible that in casual conversation, I simply didn't notice it because we live in the same city. :lol
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As a Canadian, I honestly don't know what people are saying when they refer to JLB's Canadian accent, can someone link to some YT videos showing it?
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James IMO doesn't have a stereotypical Canadian accent. He just has terrible diction when singing.
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As a Canadian, I honestly don't know what people are saying when they refer to JLB's Canadian accent, can someone link to some YT videos showing it?
This video at the very beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj50lT1H6EM
It's really not that heavy, there's just the odd word here and there that he says that sounds very Canadian. And sometimes not even the way he pronounces them, just the pacing in his speech.
I have this friend, and she speaks with a normal American accent, but the way she bends the occasional vowel, or the emphasis on certain words in her speech that makes her sound very Hispanic, since she's Puerto Rican. It's kind of the same thing with JLB in this video.
Also, funny how he refers to Kevin Moore as "The wizard". All those years ago, way before JR came into the picture.
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I have weird, mixed feelings towards this. On the one hand, I can definetly hear that JLB is a trained singer and I can't imagine another voice for DT. On the other hand, I don't really like his voice, especially regarding many live performances. There is something about his voice that just feels off to me. Not sure what it is though.
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I think the crazy vibrato and weird diction gets people a bit.
if you listen to the human equation (ayreon), though, you get less of those things than in DT (at least in my opinion). I wonder what those same people would say about his voice there...
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I honestly don't think it has anything to do with those things. I mean, I guess for some people, that might be the main issue, but I think most people just don't like his voice, which is a shame.
Can someone please give me an example of this so called "crazy vibrato"? I've never heard him do anything that I thought was too over the top. Nothing that made me go, "Whoa! That's way too much vibrato" even back when I wasn't into him.
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No offense, TGP, but you never "hear" the stuff we point out. I doubt this instance will be any different.
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No offense, TGP, but you never "hear" the stuff we point out. I doubt this instance will be any different.
Hey, I'm not expecting you to change my mind. I'm just curious what you guys consider to be "too much vibrato" from James. You could've named one part of one song, from one live release and answered my question, instead of being all snooty about it.
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BTFW, Illumination Theory, the section that ends in "Money, love, and faith". It's the shrillness we were talking about, and " faith" has this super-wide vibrato that just doesn't sound good.
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My biggest problem is how comfortable he's gotten with his Labrie-isms. Half of the time it sounds like he's mocking the lyrics or delivering them with entirely different intonations than originally intended.
Also, I find it kind of interesting that so many people here dislike the kind of singing that made him famous in the first place.
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BTFW, Illumination Theory, the section that ends in "Money, love, and faith". It's the shrillness we were talking about, and " faith" has this super-wide vibrato that just doesn't sound good.
It doesn't sound so bad. It is pretty wide, and I guess it wouldn't be too good if it was that wide on every song, but every once in a while it's okay.
Although there's not a single part of that passage that I'd refer to as shrill.
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BTFW, Illumination Theory, the section that ends in "Money, love, and faith". It's the shrillness we were talking about, and " faith" has this super-wide vibrato that just doesn't sound good.
It doesn't sound so bad. It is pretty wide, and I guess it wouldn't be too good if it was that wide on every song, but every once in a while it's okay.
Although there's not a single part of that passage that I'd refer to as shrill.
Agree. Yeah, it's wide, but it sounds good. I mean, it sounds like JLB. It's not an out-of-place excessive vibrato like the ones we can hear from him in Chaos in Motion. Even if it was corrected in the studio, that part right there is one of JLB's best live moments in recent years by far.
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Even if it was corrected in the studio, that part right there is one of JLB's best live moments in recent years by far.
This. When I first heard the studio version, I couldn't believe my ears ("wow, he can still do this?"). While watching the DVD for the first time, my heart was pumping in anticipation ("can he pull it off like in the studio or will he tone it down like on some other live bootlegs?"). He completely nailed it and I felt incredibly satisfied as shivers ran down my spine and my eyes got a little teary. James motherfuckin' LaBrie!
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BTFW, Illumination Theory, the section that ends in "Money, love, and faith". It's the shrillness we were talking about, and " faith" has this super-wide vibrato that just doesn't sound good.
It doesn't sound so bad. It is pretty wide, and I guess it wouldn't be too good if it was that wide on every song, but every once in a while it's okay.
Although there's not a single part of that passage that I'd refer to as shrill.
Agree. Yeah, it's wide, but it sounds good. I mean, it sounds like JLB. It's not an out-of-place excessive vibrato like the ones we can hear from him in Chaos in Motion. Even if it was corrected in the studio, that part right there is one of JLB's best live moments in recent years by far.
Hmm, don't get hung up on that specific example. I was yesterday trying to come up with an example of wide vibrato and screechiness, and obviously IT from BTFW came to my mind because it was the most recent thing I listened to. He does it regular in his performances.
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Agree. Yeah, it's wide, but it sounds good. I mean, it sounds like JLB. It's not an out-of-place excessive vibrato like the ones we can hear from him in Chaos in Motion. Even if it was corrected in the studio, that part right there is one of JLB's best live moments in recent years by far.
While I would agree that he doesn't sound particularly good on Chaos in Motion, it is pretty well known that there were some unfortunate post-processing decisions made that made him sound like that. So when it comes to Chaos in Motion, I don't really take it as an accurate example of what I'd call "JLB's worst moments". Perhaps whatever it was they did, did exaggerate his minor flaws to a somewhat unpleasant level. But on a normal basis, especially on recent recordings like BTFW and LALP, he hasn't been doing anything unpleasant, like I mentioned, except for those extremely high screams on Under A Glass Moon chorus. Otherwise, he's been in top form, I'd say. And any vibrato he's been doing, I'd say sounds good.
Of course, sadly, we'll never have the LATM JLB back, but heck he still (or should I say 'again') sounds absolutely amazing, even if you don't consider the throat injury and his age.
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WTF ? :facepalm:
JLB is the perfect singer for DT, period. :metal
With age it become more and more difficult for him to take care of his vocal chords, yet he still a great singer, but I think that the criticism about his voice will never end... :yeahright
And concerning this quote : "Of course, sadly, we'll never have the LATM JLB back..."
It's a joke right ?? The vocals on LATM were "re-recorded" in the studio, this is a well known fact!!
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And concerning this quote : "Of course, sadly, we'll never have the LATM JLB back..."
It's a joke right ?? The vocals on LATM were "re-recorded" in the studio, this is a well known fact!!
Yeah, but that is still the release he sounds best on (in the opinion of many people), so I'm pretty sure the quote just refers to that performance by JLB, or JLB of that era. Not sure why that is hard to understand.
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And concerning this quote : "Of course, sadly, we'll never have the LATM JLB back..."
It's a joke right ?? The vocals on LATM were "re-recorded" in the studio, this is a well known fact!!
Yeah, but that is still the release he sounds best on (in the opinion of many people), so I'm pretty sure the quote just refers to that performance by JLB, or JLB of that era. Not sure why that is hard to understand.
Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you Hef. :tup But even outside of LATM, if you listen to their Ytsejam bootleg from 1993, or watch Live in Tokyo, and all those shows around the I&W era, he may have overdone it a little on his gritty voice when performing, but still, the effortless range and power that he delivered the vocals with... Like, I was listening to it and (cheekily) I said, "Fuck! James! Stop being so good!"
Ironically enough, since he did stop being so good, because of that damn throat injury. Anyway, yeah, that was my point. As amazing as he is now, we'll never have the Images and Words era JLB back.
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Ok I see what you mean, my mistake fellas!! :tup
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Ok I see what you mean, my mistake fellas!! :tup
But yes, I do agree that he is the perfect singer for DT. If people don't like him, it's their loss.
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Ok I see what you mean, my mistake fellas!! :tup
But yes, I do agree that he is the perfect singer for DT. If people don't like him, it's their loss.
Amen to that. :metal
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Wide vibrato
His often over use of vibrato. It's girth making this point worse
His high notes are no longer full
Instead of singing Aww he sings Aaa
He doesn't hit most notes he slides into them
He often doesn't pronouce E in the proper context. Example, he'll say buh-lieve instead of believe
I still love listening to him.
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He doesn't hit most notes he slides into them
I found this to be a prominent issue in mid 2000s, but recently, I haven't heard him doing it too much.
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I was listening to Awake the whole day yesterday. Listened around five times. :metal Then this morning, I have been listening to Soundgarden's Superunknown, and all I can think about now is Chris Cornell would surely sound amazing on Awake. :lol
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Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you Hef. :tup But even outside of LATM, if you listen to their Ytsejam bootleg from 1993, or watch Live in Tokyo, and all those shows around the I&W era, he may have overdone it a little on his gritty voice when performing, but still, the effortless range and power that he delivered the vocals with... Like, I was listening to it and (cheekily) I said, "Fuck! James! Stop being so good!"
I went to listen Metropolis on Live at the Marquee after your post, and I need to thank you for pointing it out. Wow, what a performance, Labrie's really standing out! I used to held Labrie slightly below the other members from the technical point of view but now I discovered James also has some impressive skills.
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I went to listen Metropolis on Live at the Marquee after your post, and I need to thank you for pointing it out. Wow, what a performance, Labrie's really standing out! I used to held Labrie slightly below the other members from the technical point of view but now I discovered James also has some impressive skills.
No problem! :tup
If you haven't heard it before, I also really recommend listening to that album's version of The Killing Hand. The definitive version of the song in terms of vocals, IMO.
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Nothing to do with JLB's vocals, but that recording also has THE definitive version of Another Hand.
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Nothing to do with JLB's vocals, but that recording also has THE definitive version of Another Hand.
Another Hand was always so brief that I haven't done the comparison between all the different versions, lol. They all sound great to me, but if you say so.
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I do, in fact, say so.
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"Another Hand - The Killing Hand" is the extended intro, LATM version of the original "Another Hand" and is a full 2 mins longer. Yeah, it is the definitive version. However, as good as JLB is in this version, I think he goes a little too crazy with the screaming towards the end of the song between the 9:00 - 10:00 min mark. It detracted from how good that song is.
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"Another Hand - The Killing Hand" is the extended intro, LATM version of the original "Another Hand" and is a full 2 mins longer. Yeah, it is the definitive version. However, as good as JLB is in this version, I think he goes a little too crazy with the screaming towards the end of the song between the 9:00 - 10:00 min mark. It detracted from how good that song is.
Yes, I know what it is, lol. Though to be honest, I've always been more partial to the original acoustic intro.
But I don't know, I think everything JLB does on this version improves the song. It was the best song on WDADU (in my humble opinion of course) but it was still very rough around the edges, like the whole album, but the LATM version just put it at the level of I&W songs.
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Well, I wasn't implying that you didn't know. Just sayin' and I think the extended live intro is lightyears better than the original. Although, I can still appreciate the original. :biggrin:
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It's tough, because I actually really like the extended middle instrumental section of The Killing Hand that they implemented later on... Man, if we could combine the acoustic intro, followed by Another Hand, going into The Killing Hand, with LATM vocals and the extended instrumental section... I wouldn't need any other version. :hefdaddy
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Another Hand from that recording is one of my favorite passages of music from DT's entire corpus.
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Another Hand from that recording is one of my favorite passages of music from DT's entire corpus.
Out of curiosity, why that version of Another Hand? I really like the piece too, but I've never really considered comparing the versions of this one, mostly because it's so short that you don't notice as much. And other performances of it don't exactly seem to have obvious flaws that I remember.
Well, I wasn't implying that you didn't know. Just sayin' and I think the extended live intro is lightyears better than the original. Although, I can still appreciate the original. :biggrin:
Tbh I quite like the acoustic intro too. Feels like an old Metallica song with the epic intro before it kicks into gear.
It's tough, because I actually really like the extended middle instrumental section of The Killing Hand that they implemented later on... Man, if we could combine the acoustic intro, followed by Another Hand, going into The Killing Hand, with LATM vocals and the extended instrumental section... I wouldn't need any other version. :hefdaddy
Yeah, now we're talking! :metal Although, there's a lot of "mix and mash" live versions that I'd like. Sometimes they can have a perfect performance from one member, but the whole band might not be as tight. And there are some versions with cool little improv fills and extras, references or cover extracts. Too bad this isn't very viable from a mixing perspective as whenever you try this, the sound quality will never match up when you consider the balance of crowd and background noise, different recording equipment, different performance with different tempos.
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Another Hand from that recording is one of my favorite passages of music from DT's entire corpus.
Out of curiosity, why that version of Another Hand? I really like the piece too, but I've never really considered comparing the versions of this one, mostly because it's so short that you don't notice as much. And other performances of it don't exactly seem to have obvious flaws that I remember.
This is the first version of it I heard. All other versions I've ever heard deviate in small ways. This one is perfect.
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I like JLB's voice, but I have to admit that I did not understand more than half of Innocence Faded.
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I like JLB's voice, but I have to admit that I did not understand more than half of Innocence Faded.
I don't understand more than half of most people's vocals, in Rock music to be honest. Between Dream Theater, Led Zeppelin, Rush, Iron Maiden and most other bands I listen to, I'd say I understand 45% to 60% of what they're saying.
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I like JLB's voice, but I have to admit that I did not understand more than half of Innocence Faded.
I don't understand more than half of most people's vocals, in Rock music to be honest. Between Dream Theater, Led Zeppelin, Rush, Iron Maiden and most other bands I listen to, I'd say I understand 45% to 60% of what they're saying.
I'd have to agree with this sentiment, although I feel like DT's catalog might fall under one of those bands that I have a slightly harder time listening to (in terms of discerning what is being said).
Not as indiscernible as some Trivium songs, however.
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I like JLB's voice, but I have to admit that I did not understand more than half of Innocence Faded.
I don't understand more than half of most people's vocals, in Rock music to be honest. Between Dream Theater, Led Zeppelin, Rush, Iron Maiden and most other bands I listen to, I'd say I understand 45% to 60% of what they're saying.
Innocence Faded is just an extreme case for me. For example I never understood one word in this part when I heard it.
"Wearing apathetic displays
Sharing flesh like envy in cages
Condescending
Not intending to end"
Not one word. :lol
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I like JLB's voice, but I have to admit that I did not understand more than half of Innocence Faded.
:lol Yeah, I can relate to this. A lot of Awakes vocals I didn't really understand, I kinda take it for granted now cause I've sort of memorised the lyrics at this point but when I first heard Awake.. I mean those bits in Caught in A Web (second verse), and second verse of Voices has a similar deal, and of course Innocence Faded the entire song xD. I had no idea what was going on there, all I knew was that it sounded powerful, but nonsensical.
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I like JLB's voice, but I have to admit that I did not understand more than half of Innocence Faded.
I don't understand more than half of most people's vocals, in Rock music to be honest. Between Dream Theater, Led Zeppelin, Rush, Iron Maiden and most other bands I listen to, I'd say I understand 45% to 60% of what they're saying.
Innocence Faded is just an extreme case for me. For example I never understood one word in this part when I heard it.
"Wearing apathetic displays
Sharing flesh like envy in cages
Condescending
Not intending to end"
Not one word. :lol
I always understood "Condescending".... But yeah, that's it from that phrase, haha.
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There are confusing/undiscernible lyrics throughout all the albums, at least for me! I hear "hooligan" [fall again] in Pull Me Under, "I'll never be old" [I'll never be o-] in Space-Dye Vest, "painting my own Mona Lisa" [??????] in Blind Faith, and I used to take "cowards for salvation" for something else I don't remember what in Illumination Theory.
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"painting my own Mona Lisa"
That is the lyrics.
"I've painted my own Mona Lisa,
Cheesesticks everyday"