2019 NFL Thread v. Chiefs are Champs, Missouri rules the sports world

[TAC]

Why wouldn't TB retire as a Patriot?  Anything else just doesn't compute.  Don't play the drama card like Favre did. 

He very well could.

But I think TB12 (the brand) depends on him prolonging his career.

[Dublagent66]

Nah, he just needs to be the GOAT and go gracefully.  An old man out there trying not to get hurt or worse isn't good for the brand.

[Dream Team]

Wow does Rivers suck. Against that KC defense, with all those weapons he has. 7 picks over the last 2 games. Dan Patrick brought out some pretty damning stats on him on his show today. He’s basically always been a stat compiler like Stafford. The only Hall of Fame he’ll be elected to is the shot-put hall of fame.

[cramx3]

Wow does Rivers suck. Against that KC defense, with all those weapons he has. 7 picks over the last 2 games. Dan Patrick brought out some pretty damning stats on him on his show today. He’s basically always been a stat compiler like Stafford. The only Hall of Fame he’ll be elected to is the shot-put hall of fame.

I watched the end of that game, and those last two ints.  They showed a stat that he has the third most wins without winning a SB, about 20 or so behind Dan Marino and yet I feel like Dan Marino was way more loved and cherished as a great QB.  Ive never been a fan of Rivers and every time I want to see him prove me wrong, he proves me right.  The only thing I can say about him over Eli Manning is that Eli isn't playing anymore while he still is.  Still an amazing QB class with him, Eli, and Ben.

[KevShmev]

I agree that he should have done it years ago, but as I've already said I haven't seen that age is his current problem. I think if he's playing with more determination he's a better QB than what we're seeing. Also, you cite Favre as an example, and I certainly couldn't rule it out, but Manning won a superbowl with his head when he couldn't throw a ball 20 yards. Yeah, I know the D did most of the work,  but that doesn't mean they still win if Mark Sanchez had been their QB.


edit: And I still think his career ends like Janikowski's, and that'll be a damn shame.

Very true.  It's comical when I see some try to put an asterisk next to Manning's 2nd Super Bowl win. 

Wow does Rivers suck. Against that KC defense, with all those weapons he has. 7 picks over the last 2 games. Dan Patrick brought out some pretty damning stats on him on his show today. He’s basically always been a stat compiler like Stafford. The only Hall of Fame he’ll be elected to is the shot-put hall of fame.

Eh, he is/was way better than Stafford ever was.  Despite his lack of playoff success, he was almost as good as any QB in the latter half of the 00's.  That said, last night was the 2nd game in a row where he made decisions and throws at the end of the game that made me think, "What in the hell is he doing?"

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

49ers continue to simultaneously impress and foster doubt about how good they actually are.  This week:  Getting the run game bottled up, commiting unnecessary mistakes, and almost losing to a 3-win team is concerning.  On the flip-side, as to all of those things:  "it happens," and finding ways to overcome that, never at any point feel like the game is out of reach, and finding a way to get it done before the clock reaches 0:00 is the mark of a good team. 

I could see them realistically finishing anywhere between 11-5 and a wildcard to 14-2 with the #1 seed.  And while I think somewhere in between those two scenarios is the most likely, I'm ultimately just happy for how far this team has come.  And while a LOT of people would consider 11-5 an extreme disappointment, that is still far above where the team was projected to finish before the season began, and would be such a marked improvement over last year.  To even be having a legitimate conversation about them being able to go all the way this year is a HUGE stride forward.

If I had to make a prediction right now, I'm going to say 12-4 finish.  I think they likely beat the Packers, lose to the Saints and Ravens, and drop another "shoulda won" game somewhere down the stretch.  But honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the exact opposite happens, and they lose to the Packers, beat the Saints and Ravens, and then drop another one somewhere to finish 13-3.  Honestly, I think the margin between the top teams right now is VERY small.

This is my feelings on the Niners as well. I had them penciled in at a 12-4 finish. I have them losing to the Saints, Ravens, and Seahawks and beating the Packers, Rams, and Falcons. I guess time will tell. They could conceivably beat all of those teams though. I think it all depends on how dominant their defense is going to be on any given Sunday.

[KevShmev]

I haven't been doing my power rankings and MVP top contenders this season, but just for fun this week...

Power Rankings Top 10
1. Baltimore - on a roll right now and look like the team to beat
2. New Orleans - that inexplicable game against Atlanta notwithstanding, they have looked terrific for most of the season
3. New England - defense is the best they've had since the early 00's
4. San Francisco - defense being leaky all of a sudden is a slight concern
5. Green Bay - feels like they are just a notch below both NO and SF, but Rodgers can make up the difference
6. Seattle - R. Wilson is covering up a lot of their warts
7. Minnesota - ugly win is still a win, and they are loaded almost everywhere
8. Kansas City - hard to trust them in a big game with that bad defense
9. Dallas - a lot of talent on offense, but the defense is not as good as last year
10. Houston - ugly loss, but still 6-4 and have four of their last six at home

MVP contenders
1. Russell Wilson - feels like his award to lose at this point
2. Lamar Jackson - making a strong push for the number 1 spot
3. Patrick Mahomes - missing time will cost him a repeat, but his value to this team is still huge
4. Kirk Cousins - feels like he is getting overlooked, because of his bad rap, but the Vikings surge happened as soon as he started playing lights out
5. Aaron Rodgers - not putting up great stats like always, but what he did when Davante Adams missed a month was pretty special

[bosk1]

I think putting the Ravens at #1 is a bit of an overreaction.  But I can't really argue with it too much either.  The difference between the teams at the top feels VERY narrow right now.

The next 3 weeks should be pretty awesome.  The 49ers, a first place team, play 3 other first place teams: Packers, Ravens, Saints.  The Seahawks have a tough stretch against the Eagles, Vikings, and Rams (who although not very good, tend to play the Seahawks tough).  And the Pats have tough games against the Cowboys, Texans, and Chiefs.  The next 3 weeks should tell us a lot.

[KevShmev]

In the last month, Baltimore has won by 14 at 8-2 Seattle, beat 9-1 New England by 17, and beat 6-4 Houston by 34.  I had my doubts about them earlier in the season, but no one is playing better football than them right now.

[Stadler]

Wow does Rivers suck. Against that KC defense, with all those weapons he has. 7 picks over the last 2 games. Dan Patrick brought out some pretty damning stats on him on his show today. He’s basically always been a stat compiler like Stafford. The only Hall of Fame he’ll be elected to is the shot-put hall of fame.

Eh, he is/was way better than Stafford ever was.  Despite his lack of playoff success, he was almost as good as any QB in the latter half of the 00's.  That said, last night was the 2nd game in a row where he made decisions and throws at the end of the game that made me think, "What in the hell is he doing?"

I've never been a fan of Rivers to begin with, and I'm resisting the urge to just pile on a guy in the twilight of his career, but some of this isn't about age, it's that he's making some bad decisions.  Decisions that a 16 year vet shouldn't be making. 

I read a good article this morning - I think on SB Nation - that San Diego (they'll always be San Diego to me) ought to move on right now.   I agree.

I know I'm in the minority around here for this opinion, but I think "playoff success" is an important metric, and we're seeing now WHY there is a "lack of playoff success".  He's got opportunities to win games, he has the tools with which to do it, and yet he's not delivering the goods. 

[Stadler]

In the last month, Baltimore has won by 14 at 8-2 Seattle, beat 9-1 New England by 17, and beat 6-4 Houston by 34.  I had my doubts about them earlier in the season, but no one is playing better football than them right now.

Don't disagree, and it was fun to see Baltimore's enthusiasm last week when I was down there, but key word is "right now".  I'm really looking forward to when Pete Carroll, Bill Belichick, et al get round two and know a little better what to expect.  Even the Jet game might be enlightening; they suck and they're one dimensional, but the one dimension is run defense, so forcing a team that's barely a top 20 passing team to do so will be interesting. 

[King Postwhore]

In the last month, Baltimore has won by 14 at 8-2 Seattle, beat 9-1 New England by 17, and beat 6-4 Houston by 34.  I had my doubts about them earlier in the season, but no one is playing better football than them right now.

They have been firing on all cylinders right now. They deserve the accolades. 

[Dublagent66]

In the last month, Baltimore has won by 14 at 8-2 Seattle, beat 9-1 New England by 17, and beat 6-4 Houston by 34.  I had my doubts about them earlier in the season, but no one is playing better football than them right now.

They have been firing on all cylinders right now. They deserve the accolades.

Let's not forget that they gave up 40 points to the Browns in week 4 at home.  There's still the possibility of the wheels falling off.  Of course, that goes for just about any team these days.

[King Postwhore]

But adding 2 players and the D has found itself.

People crap on the AFC East but the Pats loose to these teams the most because of familiarity.   That foes with the Browns & Ravens.

[KevShmev]

Even the best teams have that one game where they play terrible, like that Ravens game against Cleveland, like that Saints game against Atlanta, etc.  Heck, New England won the Super Bowl last season despite getting crushed on the road by both Detroit and Tennessee.  I will trust what I see most weeks over what I saw just one.

[Dublagent66]

The NFL can't be trusted because the overall product continues to deteriorate. 

[KevShmev]

Exactly.

[Stadler]

I was going to say "it not deteriorating, it's just..." and then I realized that it IS deteriorating.  We can discuss how's and why's, and we may or may not come to an understanding why, but the fact is, it is.   

I grew up watching baseball, football, and hockey.  Baseball was ALWAYS on (we got the Yanks on Channel 11, WPIX, and the Mets on Channel 9, WOR), football you had to wait until Sunday - always the 1:00 game, sometimes the 4:00 game - then Monday, but it was only those two or three games, tops.   Hockey you had to wait until the playoffs.   I've soured on baseball in the last couple years; I think the steroid thing ruined it, and the $750 million contracts didn't help.  There just aren't enough guys like Paul Molitor, or Paul O'Neill (REALLY good players who weren't attention whores like Barry Bonds and Sam Sosa).  It's hard to relate to now.   Hockey is still good, but there are too many teams, and I lament the movement south of the border. 

Football was the last bastion; I enjoy/enjoyed the Thursday games, I enjoy/enjoyed the Sunday night games, but it's fast turning into the NBA.   I don't watch football to watch assholes strutting and signaling their first downs, or miming after touchdowns, and the de-evolution of some teams into one-man shows is boring to me.  I'm not on the Mahomes/Jackson bandwagon.   I'd much rather see the coordinated, systemic execution of 11 guys moving the football down the field than watching watching one guy run around like it's a game of cream the carrier, then heave it 40 yards to a guy that's barely open, then get the flag because the defensive back touched the receivers (penile) helmet by accident. 

I'll still watch, but as the current wave of players/coaches goes by the wayside, I can see my interest diminishing if something isn't done.  I'll watch Belichick, Brady, Tomlin, Roethlisberger, Harbaugh, but if the next wave is a Mahomes, Beckham Jr., Brown, Gase, Kitchener WWF event, I'm probably out.   I'll go back to hockey. 

[KevShmev]

Or, check this out, you could watch both football AND hockey!

But I hear what you are saying.  I do find if interesting that you get irritated by players getting bailed out by flags when the team you always defend (Patriots) have a made an art out of it.  Credit Belichick, who reportedly coaches his team every week on who the officials are, based on the tendencies of how those officials call their games, and how to get them to throw flags in certain situations.  Sure, it is great coaching and a good example of how he is so far ahead of everyone else, and by no means am I suggesting that the Patriots win a lot of games due to getting flags thrown in their favor, but it's indicative of the kind of game we are now getting (watered down, overly officiated, etc.).

[Stadler]

Or, check this out, you could watch both football AND hockey!

That got a laugh out loud.  Yes, I suppose I can.

But I hear what you are saying.  I do find if interesting that you get irritated by players getting bailed out by flags when the team you always defend (Patriots) have a made an art out of it.  Credit Belichick, who reportedly coaches his team every week on who the officials are, based on the tendencies of how those officials call their games, and how to get them to throw flags in certain situations.  Sure, it is great coaching and a good example of how he is so far ahead of everyone else, and by no means am I suggesting that the Patriots win a lot of games due to getting flags thrown in their favor, but it's indicative of the kind of game we are now getting (watered down, overly officiated, etc.).

Well, you've answered the question on the Patriots thing, and I've written about it before.   You're correct, Belichick has a session each week dedicated STRICTLY to the officiating crew.  I think that's a dedication to details that some coaches could do more of.   In any event, playing the refs is not the same issue as the NFL's new "cover our litigation asses" approach to open field tackling, rushing the quarterback, or defending pass routes.  I think we've gone beyond protecting the players into something else.   In my opinion, I think you're likely to see MORE injuries as players pull up or try to cushion their blows, and that's not good for anyone.  Of course I don't want to see another Darryl Stingley*, and it makes me sad that guys like Gronk are just abusing their bodies, but there's a line.   

(By the way, I looked him up - to spell his name correctly - and read this from Wikipedia.  Heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time:   "[Jack] Tatum's coach, John Madden, and many of his [Raider] teammates extended their sympathies to Stingley. Madden's post-game rush to the hospital was the beginning of a close friendship. In fact, during his visit Madden found himself the lone visitor in the hospital. No one from the Patriots was there, until Madden called their team and the team's charter plane, in takeoff mode, finally returned to the gate. Raiders offensive guard Gene Upshaw also befriended Stingley, and later was instrumental in securing benefits for disabled players through the NFL Players' Association.")

[KevShmev]

The real pisser is that Jerry Jones (according to several who know him well) thinks that officiating controversies are good for the league, since it creates buzz and gets people talking.  I would bet money that he is big reason why PI calls that are being challenged are almost never overturned, even when it's obvious that they should be, as owners do not like being told what to do, and after last year's NFCCG controversy and basically having to do something to appease both the fans and the Saints, this is their way of giving the middle finger to everyone.  "Okay, here is your rule, but nothing is going to change!"

The new kickoff rules have made onside kicks even more difficult to recover than they were before, and I have seen the idea tossed out about a rule change where the team having to kick off near the end of game can instead get one 4th and 15 play from their own 30.  I like that idea in theory, but then I can see it now where some chicken shit hold or PI call will give the team the 1st down and games will get decided because of that kind of horse shit.

[Stadler]

Oooh, I don't like that 4th and 15 idea.   I think you have to DO something to get repeat possession.   

I hate that mentality; the reality TV "any drama is good drama" mentality.   He may be right in the moment, and the moment may generate revenue, but it cheapens the product over all.   I don't think fans are going to stick around long if they feel that the outcome to games is decided off the field.  I'm a fan of the Saints, even if I'm not a Saints fan, and I have deep problems with that call in the Rams game.  It was SO blatant, and with all the so-called protections against "bad calls", there was literally no alternative, no option for the Saints in that instance.  They was, arguably, jobbed again earlier this season (against the same team, too).   That's only going to last so long. 

[cramx3]

Ew on that 4th and 15 idea too.  I dont like that at all.

[El Barto]

Ew on that 4th and 15 idea too.  I dont like that at all.

I don't either, but they need to do something.

[Dublagent66]

The way I see it, the booth reviews in NY aren't overturning bad PI calls because they are protecting their good ole boys on the field instead doing the right thing.  This "not enough visual evidence to overturn" is a load of crap.  The announcers and fans aren't stupid.  We have eyes and see the exact same thing on replay.  So there can only be one reason why most obvious bad calls never get overturned.  NFL corporate politics.  I think Kev was referring to Jerry Jones in that capacity but I think it goes way beyond his influence in the league.

[Cool Chris]

That's not a new idea. Didn't Greg Schiano come up with it, or something like it, after the Eric Legrand injury?

[El Barto]

Obviously I'm in the minority here, but I've got no problem with the state of PI calls right now. They're discretionary and there's some required subtlety. Just because a player has his arm hooked around another player doesn't mean that he's hassling him, or preventing him from doing something. That's a call best made by a guy on the field, feet away from them. Watching in real time. Hearing them. Seeing their reactions. I think people watching 4k 60fps are focusing on the tiniest details rather than seeing the overall picture. In the case of NO-LA it was a no brainer. With anything that requires any judgement be made I want it done by the people on the ground.

[Stadler]

Obviously I'm in the minority here, but I've got no problem with the state of PI calls right now. They're discretionary and there's some required subtlety. Just because a player has his arm hooked around another player doesn't mean that he's hassling him, or preventing him from doing something. That's a call best made by a guy on the field, feet away from them. Watching in real time. Hearing them. Seeing their reactions. I think people watching 4k 60fps are focusing on the tiniest details rather than seeing the overall picture. In the case of NO-LA it was a no brainer. With anything that requires any judgement be made I want it done by the people on the ground.

I actually agree with this.   There have been easily five or even ten times when they've gone to Mike Pereira who has said "in real time that was the right call".   There IS a feel to these things that needs to be preserved.  I'm more interested in the inconsistencies, and the way the rules have made certain plays impossible to execute.   I don't want to see shitty open field tackling and 57-47 scores because a defensive back has no idea how to apply the shoulder pad without drawing a 15-yard penalty and an automatic first down.

And, respectfully, I don't agree that the lack of overturned calls is some "good old boy" conspiracy.  The fact is, the refs get it right FAR more often than they get it wrong.  We just have to have some mechanism for when it's REALLY wrong.  I think what it comes down to is, use replay to supplement the on-field refs, not second guess them. 

[pg1067]

Obviously I'm in the minority here, but I've got no problem with the state of PI calls right now.

I don't either, but what I do have a problem with is a rule that says PI calls can be reviewed but the review fails to correct clear and obvious calls.  Hell...I'm not sure at this point that the call in the Rams/Saints game would be overturned.  Either apply the rule properly or get rid of the rule.  I'd be fine with either one.

And the onside kick thing sucks too.  I don't remember why the change was made but assume it was "player safety," but I don't recall any sort of epidemic of serious injuries on onside kicks.  If they don't change it, someone will figure out some way to make it work, but until then it's a nearly pointless exercise.

[Stadler]

Obviously I'm in the minority here, but I've got no problem with the state of PI calls right now.

I don't either, but what I do have a problem with is a rule that says PI calls can be reviewed but the review fails to correct clear and obvious calls.  Hell...I'm not sure at this point that the call in the Rams/Saints game would be overturned.  Either apply the rule properly or get rid of the rule.  I'd be fine with either one.

And the onside kick thing sucks too.  I don't remember why the change was made but assume it was "player safety," but I don't recall any sort of epidemic of serious injuries on onside kicks.  If they don't change it, someone will figure out some way to make it work, but until then it's a nearly pointless exercise.

I don't think it was specifically onside kicks, but the rules for kickoffs in general had the side effect of reducing (greatly) the success of onside kicks.  I could be wrong, but one change was the prohibition on getting a running start for the kick, and one was you couldn't overload one side. 

[Dublagent66]

Obviously I'm in the minority here, but I've got no problem with the state of PI calls right now.

I don't either, but what I do have a problem with is a rule that says PI calls can be reviewed but the review fails to correct clear and obvious calls.  Hell...I'm not sure at this point that the call in the Rams/Saints game would be overturned.  Either apply the rule properly or get rid of the rule.  I'd be fine with either one.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  Clear and obvious as seen in a replay by both fans and the booth.  We all know the rule.  NFL officiating isn't enforcing the rule even after they made it reviewable.  As a result, coaches are wasting a challenge and a TO for nothing.

[El Barto]

Does anybody know if the referee is in contact, like actually conversing, with the crew in NY when these things occur? That could make a big difference, and certainly provide some detail that we're not privy to watching at home. "Well, yeah he did have his hand on his shoulder, but when you were down here it was very clear that the receiver was already off balance and stumbling anyway, hence incidental contact." Or perhaps: "I could see his face well enough to know that he was clearly playing for the ball and not trying to interfere." The sorts of things that wouldn't be clear during a slow motion replay, and certainly not something the networks want you to know. Remember, grumbling about sports is quite lucrative, and announcers hate dead air.

[El Barto]

Pouncy had his suspension shortened to two games. I probably would have started with 2 and lessened it to 1, but I'm still good with this. Like I said, I think there needed to be some consideration to his onfield obligation. The fact that the people hearing his review were Derick Brooks and James Thrash, who would certainly understand this, definitely made a big difference there.


edit: Oh, and changing the basis of your appeal from "I'm sorry, I fucked up" to "he called me a bad word" definitely doesn't help your case any. Pick a defense and stick with it. That said, while I'm skeptical that it happened, it would explain a lot of things. The whole thing, actually. Garrett's freakout really didn't make any sense without something like that setting him off. 

[bosk1]

edit: Oh, and changing the basis of your appeal from "I'm sorry, I fucked up" to "he called me a bad word" definitely doesn't help your case any. Pick a defense and stick with it. That said, while I'm skeptical that it happened, it would explain a lot of things. The whole thing, actually. Garrett's freakout really didn't make any sense without something like that setting him off. 

I tend to agree.  But that said, I can see some situations where him not saying anything, and then coming out with it later could possibly make sense.  For instance, I might understand if Garrett said something like:  "Yeah, he absolutely said it.  But I didn't say anything at the time because I understand that sometimes, good guys say something terrible and out of character in the moment, and I get that me outing him for it is going to be something that would stick with his name and reputation forever, so I was trying to take the high road and not drag him through that.  But Rudolph has been a jerk about it since then, and I am realizing that the way this is being played out, it just looks like I am some out of control maniac, and that isn't fair, so I think the whole story needs to come out."

EDIT:  And the thing is, it should be fairly easy to verify.  The entire incident happened in pretty close quarters with other players from both teams.  If he said it loudly enough for Garrett to hear, others should have heard it as well.  Looking at video, DeCastro and Pouncey may have been the only ones there (they are the only other players in the shot when the skirmish breaks out), and maybe they just back their guy, but I would think that, for Pouncey at least, racial solidarity would trump "team" if Rudolph had actually said something that offensive. 

[KevShmev]

Several of his teammates were asked about today and acted surprised because they had clearly heard nothing about it before today, meaning Garrett likely made it up to try and excuse his actions.  Frankly, if I am Mason Rudolph and I didn't say it, I am reconsidering filing charges.  If Garrett is going to make up something like that to assassinate his character, screw that, go scorched earth on him and see how he likes dealing with an assault charge.