Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Vandalism]

My controversial opinion is that most of the time (except I&W n Awake n ACOS) I am just bearing with JLB n waiting for the next cool part from the other four.

[jakepriest]

My controversial opinion is that most of the time (except I&W n Awake n ACOS) I am just bearing with JLB n waiting for the next cool part from the other four.

You must be doing quite a bit of waiting then.

[t-bone2112]

Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

[CDrice]

My controversial opinion is that most of the time (except I&W n Awake n ACOS) I am just bearing with JLB n waiting for the next cool part from the other four.

You must be doing quite a bit of waiting then.

Well considering how much James sings in comparison to how much he doesn't, he must not wait all that much... unless you're saying the other four never have cool parts. In this case that would be quite the controversial statement 

[bosk1]

Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

Fair enough.  At least you can say you gave it a fair shot.  I am really curious to know how you feel about each of their other albums, and which ones you like vs. do not like.

[Skeever]

My experience was quite different, I heard Awake first and honestly did not like it very much at all. Next I went for Images and Words and my first thought was "so THIS is the band everyone is raving about!"

I like both albums a lot now, though 

[erwinrafael]

Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

I find that Awake, my favorite album, really connects with people who could connect with a lot of the songs based on personal experience. 6:00, for example, others find grating. But for people who experience bad days and dragging themselves to work, 6:00 perfectly captures the emotions. Scarred also captures mood swings, hate, despair, confusion. Which is why a lot find it a real great work of art. It's very honest.

I can imagine others not liking it, though, for being too honest.

[abydos]

I tend to like the darker sound (and darker side of art in general) of music a bit more since I often connect with it more. It's cathartic. Understandable how it might have the opposite effect on some people, though. Which is why Awake for me is just as good, if not better, with time.

[zecawolf]

Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

I couldn't agree more!

[Darkstarshades]

So I got this strange feeling while hearing ACoS studio version.
Everytime James sings, my throat hurts, idk if it has something to do with the date being close to the posioning incident or what, but I feel a very annoying and painful sensation everytime he sings. As if he was doing a non-human effort to do that and it's just so excruciatingly painful.
The song isn't properly mixed, the drums are too low and the keyboard sometimes does unnecesary stuff that goes on for too long (such as in the very intro with that fantasy/flute/synth weird sound)

Personally, the LSFNY performance is so much much better on every aspect.

[BlobVanDam]

Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

I like you.

[bl5150]

I was disappointed with just about every album by everyone after I&W   

[BlobVanDam]

I was disappointed with just about every album by everyone after I&W   

At least we can agree on that much.

[Cable]

Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I like it, but I am with you in one regard with it not being a favorite, or top DT.

I find that Awake, my favorite album, really connects with people who could connect with a lot of the songs based on personal experience. 6:00, for example, others find grating. But for people who experience bad days and dragging themselves to work, 6:00 perfectly captures the emotions. Scarred also captures mood swings, hate, despair, confusion. Which is why a lot find it a real great work of art. It's very honest.

I can imagine others not liking it, though, for being too honest.

It's not that for me. The vocal melodies to me are not as strong as almost all the other albums, if not everyone but WDADU. And the more I listen to WDADU, the more I pick up on melodies. That doesn't happen with Awake for me. Things like 6:00, Lie, and LSOAD have no poppy/catchy vocal melodies to me vs. other DT output. DT can get ripped for modern albums, and anything after Awake. But it was not until the more straight-forward approach of FII, and them doing backing vocals, that I feel they cared more about easily accessible vocal melodies. That's not to say WDADU-Awake didn't have them, but not as prevalent as after Awake. I could name at least one song on every DT album since Awake that in my tastes, has a better vocal melody than anything on Awake.

JLB's aggressive vocals work in some songs (Scarred, CIAW), and fall flat in others I feel (Lie). And they work in Scarred and CAIW I think because of the contrast in these songs. This was not a problem on Train Of Thought, or even something like TDEN, because there is a balance of styles.

While I appreciate the production value and balancing/mastering, I do not like the mix and overall sound. The album sounds sterile and thin to me. And what really sucks is I LOVE Mesa Rectifier rhythm tone, but on this album it sounds like crap IMO blended with the Mark 4 (or 2/2c+?). I will take I&W and the triggers 10 times out of 10 over Awake, because otherwise I&W hits better for me. And the mix is more to my taste.

Lyrically, I agree 100%. This IMO is the pinnacle of DT lyric writing. I have a different interpretation of Scarred, but a similar view on mood. I will have to listen to 6:00, never picked up on that. Voices, Scarred, LSOAD and SDV are all things I can relate to. Yet were written so well, they do stand out as great, poetic lyrics. And because of Voices and LSOAD's lyrics, I can get through the songs because they are at the top of the great DT lyric list. This actually doesn't support my point about vocal melodies, as I feel the great lyrics didn't make way for more accessible vocals. I believe often that simpler lyrics=catchy vocal melodies. So maybe they sacrificed melodies for lyrics, as every member was a confirmed part of writing them.

I do not get the full dark mood. Darker than some of their albums yes, but over the whole discography, I don't agree. This to me was an opinion pre TOT. But up to now, plenty of their songs hit dark moments, and instrumentally are as dark if not darker. WDADU leaves me a dark feel often, if not times more. FIL, KH, LFAGA & TOWHTSTS all are as dark to me as anything on Awake. TOT is on par with Awake, SC is due to the lyrical nature, and 6DOIT to a degree, pun intended. There are enough contrasting moods in the songs on Awake to make me see plenty of bright sides. IF and SM never have given me a dark feel, and without the instrumental part of LSOAD, that song would also be brighter to me. Voices, taking out the intro and "Thought Disorder" section sounds not dark to me.

Awake is just a weird album for me. In my ranking, it is indeed a roller coaster album. Sometimes it's awesome, nearing the upper half and challenging some. Other times I could throw it in the bottom 3rd of my ranking or #11 and not think twice about it. Scarred will always remain a top 3 DT song for me, SDV top 10. The rest, it varies A LOT. I like a lot of parts of the songs, but that doesn't make me think the songs are great. I love the verses of TDEN, but the song is probably my least favorite DT ever. For me, not loving Awake is not to do with the mood or lyrics, but mainly the production & mix, and the vocal melodies.

[erwinrafael]

Awake is not dark. It is angsty, honest and angry. And that is what I am referring to in my post. This may be a weird comparison, but it is like  Dream Theater's counterpart to Alanis Morissete's Jagged Little Pill

Innocence Faded is an example of contrast. The music is bright but at the same time exudes negative emotion, especially harshness. There's some sort of passive-aggressive thing going on in this song, and you can feel it in the music, and even moreso in the lyrics, which contains a lot of swipes by JP against KM.

"Callow and vain
Fixed like a fossil, shrouding pain
Passionless stage
Distant like brothers
Wearing apathetic displays
Sharing flesh like envy in cages
Condescending
Not intending to end
...
Beginnings get complicated
the farther we progress
Opinions are calculated
Immune to openness"

That's some angry lyrics there. LOL.

As for 6:00, where KM deployed grating keys bordering on irritating, how appropriate is the music for these lyrics he penned?

"Six o'clock the siren kicks him from a dream
Tries to shake it off but it just won't stop
Can't find the strength but he's got promises to keep
And wood to chop before he sleeps

I may never get over
but never's better than now
I've got bases to cover

He's in the parking lot and he's just sitting in his car
It's nine o'clock but he can't get out
He lights a cigarette
and turns the music down
but just can't seem to shake that sound

Once I thought I'd get over
but it's too late for me now
I've got bases to cover

Melody walks through the door
and memory flies out the window
and nobody knows what they want
'til they finally let it all go"

Must be a slap to the face of the band to have a song about a member dragging himself to work with them. LOL. And then KM smoked us with an amazing solo.

[Cable]

^

Dark to me when I said it was synonymous with the emotions you stated Erwin. Anger is typically a less desirable emotion, and those that exhibit it a lot may be considered rude, mean, harmful and so on down the darker line. Serious topics about work sucking, three songs IMO about breakups/relationships, drama, addiction(s), and a struggle with following a dogma are darker topics to me. Is a song about stem cell research, writer's block, or missing a significant other dark? Not really. Certainly a traditional pop love song is not too dark. So a happy sounding song will probably not be considered dark superficially, although lyrics can make it that way (hi Steven Wilson!)

My point was more on the music, my preceived taste in the sonic sound of the album, & vocal melodies making Awake a not so hot album. As I noted, two songs lyrics on Awake actually make me like the songs. That's how much I love the lyrics, and actually saves the album from ever being at the bottom. You mentioned that you felt people mostly don't connect with Awake because of the lyrics. I am saying it's the complete opposite for me!  It is one of the saving factors of the album for me. If Awake was the same, but with SC lyrics substituted, I would keep this one in the cellar.

DT's dark lyrics are not so dark in the scope of music. They are not talking about how they will torture someone, nor practices of social taboos and norms an so on. But they still talk about hating a step father (HTF), telling a guitarist to go eff himself (AIA), monsters who murder (TDEN & ITPOE?), a tour of more well known mental disorders (SDOIT), telling ungrateful fans to eff off (NE), and 5 songs about addiction. And about honesty; NE & AIA again, and Raise the Knife. And JP & JLB have taken lyrical views against religious beliefs becoming intertwined with violence. Those are very heavy topics, and not about love, peace, feeling good and so on. Further, DT doesn't play with dissonance vs. other music a lot, but they do enough. Awake has both going on, but many parts of other albums do too. To ignore influence from increasingly extreme rock music in their music would be mistake IMO. To me, a band like Opeth took years to get into not so much as the death metal vocals nor the lyrical content, but the dissonant chords that primarily Mikael uses. So when I speak about darkness in music, it goes beyond words and vocal melodies, but how the harmonies and progressions/voicing goes.

I still get what you are saying though Erwin- Awake is angry like Jagged Little Pill was, and maybe the most turmoil filled album lyrically wise that actually was mirrored within the band. I would contend BC&SL had more drama, but it didn't reflect in the lyrics.

[erwinrafael]

Sorry, maybe I was not clear. My take is that a lot who do not like Awake do not like it because of the music, which os dark, heavy and depressing. For me, though, the music is strong because of the way it combines with the lyrics to deliver a consistent narrative of anger, angst and personal issues.

[mikeyd23]

Not sure how controversial this is... but I absolutely love the production on Train of Thought.

Its perfect production for that type of straight-up-metal record. The guitars are thick and heavy with great tone, especially JP's lead tone is killer. The bass guitar sounds huge and thick. The drums sound great and punchy (MP had great drum sound on a consistent basis through the whole meta album cycle). JR sits in a great place in the mix for the heavier-style songs and James sounds phenomenal as well. I just love the way this record sounds. 

[jakepriest]

Not sure how controversial this is... but I absolutely love the production on Train of Thought.

Its perfect production for that type of straight-up-metal record. The guitars are thick and heavy with great tone, especially JP's lead tone is killer. The bass guitar sounds huge and thick. The drums sound great and punchy (MP had great drum sound on a consistent basis through the whole meta album cycle). JR sits in a great place in the mix for the heavier-style songs and James sounds phenomenal as well. I just love the way this record sounds.

I agree with everything you said. It's one of the reasons TOT is consistently sitting in my top 3 albums.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Not sure how controversial this is... but I absolutely love the production on Train of Thought.

Its perfect production for that type of straight-up-metal record. The guitars are thick and heavy with great tone, especially JP's lead tone is killer. The bass guitar sounds huge and thick. The drums sound great and punchy (MP had great drum sound on a consistent basis through the whole meta album cycle). JR sits in a great place in the mix for the heavier-style songs and James sounds phenomenal as well. I just love the way this record sounds.

My only issue with the sound on TOT is the way the toms sound on Mike's big kit. It's most clear in the middle section of ItNoG, but they sound super squeaky. It's not really a problem on the small kit (which he only used for AIA and SoC) but the big kit's toms are awful. It's a weird gripe and I'm sure many people would consider it nitpicking, but a big aspect of MP's playing is his fills so if his toms sound bad it really takes away from his overall performance (which is great on this record).

[Cable]

I agree about TOT. I cannot vouch for what you say TheCount, as drum sounds to me are always there and solid, but I'm not focusing on the tone of individual drums.

The album mix is loud and probably too hot, but I cannot hear any clipping. As I mentioned, Mesa Recto rhythm's are my bag. And JM is completely audible but fits in perfectly, which is awesome considering it's not like he is playing tons of counter lines.

[nightmare_cinema]

I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*

[rumborak]

I wish they had left the Tchaikovsky thing for the BTFW rendition. Having it interrupt the otherwise nice string section is really a bummer.

[Darkstarshades]

I wish they had left the Tchaikovsky thing for the BTFW rendition. Having it interrupt the otherwise nice string section is really a bummer.

Pretty much the entire Illumination Theory theme is a Tchaikovsky renditripoffion

[Darkstarshades]

I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*

Why hiding? half forum hates it too

[Crow]

I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*

nah see i agree with you
don't care for the enemy inside myself but Enigma Machine and The Bigger Picture aren't awful
the rest is boring as hell though

[Nearmyth]

Awake's darkness is exactly why I like it. Raw, emotional, powerful.

Also its production sounds incredibly nice on the ears. So crisp and clean, yet dynamic and punching. 

[Dublagent66]

I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*

Mostly agree.  Although, my expectations are a little mixed.  Will they redeem themselves or will it be more of the same?  BTW, my all time favorite band is Rush.   

No, Rush hasn't had hits like that.  Not sure where this discussion is even coming from, because it isn't one.

Rush has only had ONE US Top 40 hit - the aformentioned New World Man, which made it to # 21.

You're right.  There isn't a discussion.  Rush had TONS of hit singles.  That isn't really debatable.  But if we are now saying that ONLY the ones that made the top 40 in the U.S. count, then I will concede that arbitrary distinction.

This.  There really is no debate when comparing 2 Kansas songs to anything that Rush has done.

[nightmare_cinema]

Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.

[Ben_Jamin]

Dark Side of The Moon...Their best cover album, EVER!

The one downside though, Portnoy being Portnoy. He tends to speed up the songs a bit much.

Which leads me to say. Portnoy couldn't keep a vibe live. Certain songs require that vibe. "Classic" songs really desire to be played specifically like how it is.

He did however, play the last two songs with emotion.

[425]

Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.

The self-titled is one of their most polarizing albums (along with, I would argue, FII and 8VM). People who don't like it typically don't like it at all, while people who do like it typically rank it among DT's best records. That can easily give you the impression that everyone loves it, if you happen to read more of the posts where people say it is one of the best, and it can also give you the impression that most people don't like it, if you happen to read more of the other kind of posts.

[Rodni Demental]

Dark Side of The Moon...Their best cover album, EVER!

Agreed that Dark Side is the best album cover. Although there's still some decent stuff on the various 'uncovered' cover albums that can be pretty cool.


Anyway by the looks of it at this rate it's going to be controversial to think DT12 is one of their best efforts. Even though it's missing some of what I love about DT (long instrumental jams and OTT solos), everything else is so well polished and refined. I think it's great, but really I've listened to it the least out of any of their albums and I don't get the urge to go back to it very often, but so long as I only listen occasionally, some of the compositions still blow me away, and I feel there's a lot of subtleties in the music that I'm still discovering with each listen. Also, I'm in that group of people that thinks IT is the greatest 'epic' they've ever written so that might help my opinion of the album overall.

Also I dunno how controversial this is, but I've only just recently realised that Don't Look Past Me is a great song. I've had the idea that most people don't think much of it around here, not to mention most casual fans I've known don't even realise it exists. And I always thought it was pretty meh, but something clicked the other day and now I wish it was included on the album. IMO it's in the same league as the rest of the album as many of those songs seemed meh at first but then grew into masterpieces.

[425]

I'm not sure I've ever heard Don't Look Past Me. What kills it is the lack of a readily available version with James on vocals. It's the least accessible of all the rare songs IAW and onward. You can get Eve on The Silent Man single for pretty cheap, To Live Forever is on Greatest Hit and elsewhere, the FII Demos exist (plus Raise the Knife is on Score), and if you really feel the need for Raw Dog, I suppose you can download it if that's truly what you feel like you need to do. But Don't Look Past Me, IIRC, is only on IAW Demos with a non-James singer and then on the hard-to-buy Cleaning Out the Closet with James.

[erwinrafael]

Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.

The self-titled is one of their most polarizing albums (along with, I would argue, FII and 8VM). People who don't like it typically don't like it at all, while people who do like it typically rank it among DT's best records. That can easily give you the impression that everyone loves it, if you happen to read more of the posts where people say it is one of the best, and it can also give you the impression that most people don't like it, if you happen to read more of the other kind of posts.

It is easy to appreciate the self-titled if you take it in the spirit of  what I think the band aimed for: a concise statement to be given to somebody who asks "What is Dream Theater?" Instead of going the FII or 8VM route, though, of trying to change their sound to fit in more mainstream sensibilities to appeal to more people, DT instead retained their core sound but made it straight-to-the-point, so that the non-long time fan who will sample it will get what Dream Theater is in a concise package.

The album was not aimed at the long-time fans, which, in one interview, JP said he's pretty sure already have their own favorite albums in the discography. This is the exact quote:

"Because we believe that, although we have a very deep and rich history and we’re incredibly proud of everything we’ve done, we’re still making our best music. So we wanted to make a point of that. The other thing is that a lot of our longtime fans already have their favorite albums of ours, but newer fans don’t have that reference point. We wanted to make this album a reference point for them as far as what Dream Theater is all about. That was the goal and the mission, and it set the tone for the entire project."

[425]

See, while I understand what they were going for, and while I am one of the people who ranks DT12 among their top 5 DT albums, I disagree with the idea that DT12 is a reference point for what DT is all about. In fact, I would argue that ADTOE works far better as that type of reference point.