Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[rumborak]

I think the drumming was well executed, but it's a long shot from the rhythms that MP created on the earlier albums.

[hefdaddy42]

I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.

To me the grammy nod was more about their entire career, though. It was not at all indicative of the song being particularly successful as a single. Pretty sure OTBOA was about as successful as any other DT single 

Grammy nominations have nothing to do with sales (which seems to be how you are defining "successful"), especially in the lesser-publicized categories, like the one that DT was nominated in.

[Skeever]

I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.

To me the grammy nod was more about their entire career, though. It was not at all indicative of the song being particularly successful as a single. Pretty sure OTBOA was about as successful as any other DT single 

Grammy nominations have nothing to do with sales (which seems to be how you are defining "successful"), especially in the lesser-publicized categories, like the one that DT was nominated in.

Oh, I don't think success is necessarily defined by sales, and DT have been a very successful band. That goes without saying. But if you read the final chapter of Lifting Shadows from the 2nd edition, it's very obvious that by "upswing" some members (certainly Mike) mean the band getting bigger, playing larger venues, and so on. That is not something that happened, and I do wonder if maybe Mike saw DT's "glass ceiling" and wanted to throw himself into A7X instead. Just speculation. 

More recently, I tend to view the move to Roadrunner as DT's last big move. These days, I think they're fully exposed to every market that would possibly show interest in them. When DT went to RR, myself and others believed they could be an album away from their next big breaking-through. These days, it seems like that second break-through is never going to happen. They'll continue sustaining as they always have, but they'll likely never be making it to the top 40 and playing MSG main stage. 

[King Postwhore]

I was under no illusions that DT would ever be able to fill MSG.  I that a mark on them?  Not in the slightest.

[Skeever]

I was under no illusions that DT would ever be able to fill MSG.  I that a mark on them?  Not in the slightest.

Neither was I, but Mike specifically states that as a goal for the band moving forward. That why I'm saying, I wonder if personally he would say those kinds of things, but secretly he had a feel that he'd need to join or start another band to get there.

[?]

I think DT's popularity has stabilized for the most part - I can't see them becoming any bigger, but they aren't on a notable downward slope, either. I looked at the US first-week sales for the latest five albums at Blabbermouth:

The new, self-titled album from progressive metal giants DREAM THEATER sold around 34,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to debut at position No. 7 on The Billboard 200 chart. The CD arrived in stores on September 24 via Roadrunner.

DREAM THEATER's previous CD, "A Dramatic Turn Of Events", opened with 36,000 units to land at No. 8. The band's 2009 effort, "Black Clouds & Silver Linings", premiered with 40,000 copies to enter the chart at No. 6. This was roughly in line with the first-week tally registered by its predecessor, "Systematic Chaos", which shifted 36,000 copies in 2007 to debut at No. 19. 2005's "Octavarium" premiered with 27,000 copies to land at No. 36.

That kind of decline isn't too bad compared to Queensryche's album sales before firing Geoff Tate:

"Dedicated To Chaos", the new album from Seattle progressive rockers QUEENSRCHE, sold 8,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to land at position No. 70 on The Billboard 200 chart. The band's previous CD, the epic concept album "American Soldier", opened with 21,000 units back in April 2009 to enter the chart at No. 25. This was roughly half the first-week tally registered by QUEENSRCHE's "Operation: Mindcrime II" album, which shifted 44,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release back in April 2006 to debut at No. 14 on The Billboard 200 chart.

I think the lack of change in musical direction is both a gift and a curse for DT - they aren't losing a lot of fans, but aren't gaining masses of new either. I'd like to see them get more experimental, but at this point in their career it's probably too late and would be considered dangerous by the band.

[King Postwhore]

I was under no illusions that DT would ever be able to fill MSG.  I that a mark on them?  Not in the slightest.

Neither was I, but Mike specifically states that as a goal for the band moving forward. That why I'm saying, I wonder if personally he would say those kinds of things, but secretly he had a feel that he'd need to join or start another band to get there.

I think Mike was more of a guy wearing his emotions on his sleeve and his heart was not with the band at that moment.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, I never got the impression that that was a realistic goal he had set for the band.  That was more of a wish, an "If I win the lottery" statement.

[rumborak]

I was actually surprised how much they managed to get out of it after the switch to RR. I've never been a big fan of the image they took on (the "greasy bike shop" image), but it certainly drew more people in.

[adamack]

My controversial opinion of the day is a realization I've made more recently:

While DT12 is a great album when comparing it against other albums by other bands in general, it is IMO their worst album since FII.

I hadn't realized this until recently, after giving it a solid year and 3 months to listen to (or more importantly, not listen to).

The problem for me is that it has 3 songs on it which I never liked, and likely never will. FAS, EM, and TLG. No other DT album since FII has more than 1 song on it that I flat out never liked at any time. This is a huge testament to how consistent and impressive DT is.

The other problem is that the epic, IT, is just average to me. I loved it at first, but it has not aged well at all.

Between those 4 songs (IT, FAS, EM, and TLG), roughly 35 of the 70 minutes are accounted for, or half of the album.

Then there's AfTR, which is a good song but not one that I go out of my way to listen to.

We are left with 4 songs (TEI, BtV, StR, and TBP), all of which are amazing. I've always loved these songs, but even they have not aged particularly well. I still love them, but I rarely listen to them.

So we're left with an album that, while great, just doesn't compare to the rest of their albums since FII.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's my 4th favorite. Just saying.

[adamack]

It's my 4th favorite. Just saying.

It was my 4th or 5th favorite shortly after it came out too, but it hasn't aged as well for me personally. That is far from set in stone though. Who knows...in a year or so it may make the jump back into my top 5.

The Count Of Tuscany has proven to me that anything can happen with DT. I used to dislike TCoT, but I kept giving it a shot and it ended up being a top 25 song.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I think DT12 still lies right around the middle of their albums for me, which sounds worse than it actually is. I think it's still very, very solid, with some of their best material on it in years.

[Zook]

Enigma Machine is probably the only song on the new album that I wouldn't mind not hearing for a long while. It's ok, but my phone loves playing it whenever I put my 1700 songs on shuffle, so I'm just tired of it.

That being said, I can listen to Erotomania and Hell's Kitchen over and over again without ever getting tired of them, but they wrote differently back then.

[hefdaddy42]

The Count Of Tuscany has proven to me that anything can happen with DT. I used to dislike TCoT, but I kept giving it a shot and it ended up being a top 25 song.

It's gone the other way for me.  I liked it quite a bit upon release, but now I'm not sure I can sit through the whole thing.

[Zook]

The Count Of Tuscany has proven to me that anything can happen with DT. I used to dislike TCoT, but I kept giving it a shot and it ended up being a top 25 song.

It's gone the other way for me.  I liked it quite a bit upon release, but now I'm not sure I can sit through the whole thing.

The Count of Tuscany is so silly that when I do listen to it, it's always a good time. Granted I don't listen to it that often anymore.

[rumborak]

For me it depends on the day. Sometimes I can blend out the ludicrous lyrics and MP's laughable backing vocals, and then it's an awesome song music-wise. Some days I'm unsuccessful and wish there was a "fan version" that had different lyrics and no MP on vocals.

[rumborak]

Regarding DT12, I actually just checked RYM to see whether its ranking had changed. It hadn't really, but I noticed another intriguing aspect. Check this out:



I think it's peculiar that DT12 and BCSL are a measly 0.09 apart. Like, it seems the fanbase almost created this "tier" system that puts albums into 3 distinct tiers.

[Zook]

Where's Six Degrees?

[TAC]

That's really interesting, Rumbo, though not surprising.

Where's Six Degrees?

Good question.

[rumborak]

Oops, forgot to enter that line! It's at 3.55, I ust updated the graph. Which I guess "rounds off" the downslope from Awake to ToT nicely, making ToT less of an anomaly. But, the Tier 2 ones are still crazy clustered.
And on a more controversial note I guess (it's the thread after all), if one is to subscribe to the tier classification, DT has not released a Tier 1 album in the second half of their career.
That said, DT12 was actually their best effort in the second half.

[Zook]

Awake and Six Degrees should be level with the first two.

[Skeever]

Regarding DT12, I actually just checked RYM to see whether its ranking had changed. It hadn't really, but I noticed another intriguing aspect. Check this out:



I think it's peculiar that DT12 and BCSL are a measly 0.09 apart. Like, it seems the fanbase almost created this "tier" system that puts albums into 3 distinct tiers.

That's pretty interesting. My personal rankings would probably swap DT12 and ADTOE. For me, ADTOE is the one that is closer to the level of the best albums, and sort of the "comeback" record. DT12, not so much. As for the rest of the list, I'm sure I could tinker with it, but I'm alright with it as-is.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Looking at that graph, I guess my controversial opinion would be that other than the top 2, I don't agree with any of these positionings. 8VM, ADToE, and BC&SL are in my top half of albums while Awake, TOT, and DT12 are in my bottom half of albums. SDoIT is in the top half, but at the back end of it. WDaDU is higher (although still in the bottom half) while SC is my bottom album. FII is about where I have it as well.

[rumborak]

Awake and Six Degrees should be level with the first two.

I would definitely say SDOIT should be level with Awake. But, the two are not the same level as the Golden Duo, IMHO.

[BlobVanDam]

My controversial opinion of the day is a realization I've made more recently:

While DT12 is a great album when comparing it against other albums by other bands in general, it is IMO their worst album since FII.

That is controversial.




Because it's an insult to FII to be put on the same level as DT12. FII is worlds better.

[TheGreatPretender]

You know, re-reading the book, and being on the BC&SL chapter right now, if anyone makes it seem like an upswing for the band, more so than MP or anyone else, it's the author. I mean, describing BC&SL as their best album since SFAM, and a beacon that is to be remembered fondly over other DT albums in years to come. So, I mean, if that's how Rich feels, that's totally fine, but my point is that most of the positivity about the band in the book is coming from the author's fan perspective, not from the band themselves. Of course, it can be speculated that they said, "Just make sure the last chapter says we're doing better than ever, and only getting better," but somehow I doubt the band would've put in that kind of a request.

[Skeever]

You know, re-reading the book, and being on the BC&SL chapter right now, if anyone makes it seem like an upswing for the band, more so than MP or anyone else, it's the author. I mean, describing BC&SL as their best album since SFAM, and a beacon that is to be remembered fondly over other DT albums in years to come. So, I mean, if that's how Rich feels, that's totally fine, but my point is that most of the positivity about the band in the book is coming from the author's fan perspective, not from the band themselves. Of course, it can be speculated that they said, "Just make sure the last chapter says we're doing better than ever, and only getting better," but somehow I doubt the band would've put in that kind of a request.

In my opinion, the majority of the book in the late chapters is, in fact, MP input. Sure Rich did a good job as far as he could, but I totally suspect MP had a major role in framing the narrative from the band's point of view. To be honest, MP was such a control freak with that kind of stuff, that I also suspect the thought may have crossed his mind to write the book himself.

(I mean, he did direct all the other docs on the band, right? And they all essentially have that same flavor to them, i.e. "look at all the adversity which has plagued us; things are better than ever now and we're on an upswing")

[Mosh]

I'm surprised MP hasn't written a book yet actually. Maybe he hasn't had the time.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I'm surprised MP hasn't written a book yet actually. Maybe he hasn't had the time.

I think he mentioned that this was one of the first things he thought about doing when he left the band,  and I'm expecting him to do it at some point.  But a lot of it may be "censored" for legal reasons.

[Kotowboy]

Censored because it would get MP in a lot of libel trouble

[rumborak]

Seriously. What would be left of the story that wouldn't be slander?

[Zook]

Seriously. What would be left of the story that wouldn't be slander?

"Slander is spoken. In print it's libel." - J. Jonah Jameson

[bosk1]

All I know is that if the band is full of shit when they say that it was when they got their proper support from RR that things have been better for them than they had been in a long time, then they're definitely doing a good job of deceiving everyone, because from the kind of label support and publicity they're getting, the quality of their performances, as well as their live production, and the band's overall morale, it all spells upswing to me.

Nailed it.

I think it all depends on the angle from which your looking at it.
To me, DT has long been (at least to may, say, 6 years) in the classic "post-peak" period. Interest in the band was slowly waning, and while the MP/MM shakeup was the proverbial adrenaline syringe into the heart, the slow decent resumed soon after. I think to a lot of people, ADTOE showed potential, and the hope was that DT12 was going to boldly open the doors that were slightly ajar in ADTOE. I think DT12 was a rather disappointing "Oh." when it fell back into the old patterns again. *Especially* when the whole thing was preempted by quotes like "MM unleashed", and reality was a plastic electronic drum kit sound with mediocre drumming.

  I'm not even sure what planet that might be true on.

I think DT's popularity has stabilized for the most part - I can't see them becoming any bigger, but they aren't on a notable downward slope, either. I looked at the US first-week sales for the latest five albums at Blabbermouth:

The new, self-titled album from progressive metal giants DREAM THEATER sold around 34,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to debut at position No. 7 on The Billboard 200 chart. The CD arrived in stores on September 24 via Roadrunner.

DREAM THEATER's previous CD, "A Dramatic Turn Of Events", opened with 36,000 units to land at No. 8. The band's 2009 effort, "Black Clouds & Silver Linings", premiered with 40,000 copies to enter the chart at No. 6. This was roughly in line with the first-week tally registered by its predecessor, "Systematic Chaos", which shifted 36,000 copies in 2007 to debut at No. 19. 2005's "Octavarium" premiered with 27,000 copies to land at No. 36.

That kind of decline isn't too bad compared to Queensryche's album sales before firing Geoff Tate:

"Dedicated To Chaos", the new album from Seattle progressive rockers QUEENSRCHE, sold 8,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to land at position No. 70 on The Billboard 200 chart. The band's previous CD, the epic concept album "American Soldier", opened with 21,000 units back in April 2009 to enter the chart at No. 25. This was roughly half the first-week tally registered by QUEENSRCHE's "Operation: Mindcrime II" album, which shifted 44,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release back in April 2006 to debut at No. 14 on The Billboard 200 chart.

I think the lack of change in musical direction is both a gift and a curse for DT - they aren't losing a lot of fans, but aren't gaining masses of new either. I'd like to see them get more experimental, but at this point in their career it's probably too late and would be considered dangerous by the band.

Good points.  I don't recall where it was, but this was discussed awhile back as well, and Dream Theater and Queensryche are VERY interesting examples when looking at album sales during this period.  Keep in mind that album sales numbers have declined dramatically across the industry during the time period we are talking about.  So album sales numbers cannot really be looked at as raw numbers if you want to draw any meaningful conclusions about what they mean about a band's success.  They are useful relative numbers, but not as raw data.  What I mean is, the industry as a whole saw a much sharper decline during this time period than Dream Theater's numbers.  Relative to the industry, Queensryche's numbers were much worse, indicating that the band did in fact completely tank during the Mindcrime II->American Solidier->D2C stretch.  Dream Theater's raw numbers shrank slightly, but were far better than the overall decline in the industry.  So with that perspective, I think those numbers definitely spell success, especially when you also look at relative concert attendance and see that, again, DT is holding firm and continuing to draw crowds when they are out on the road, which is where the money really is.

[KevShmev]

I'm surprised MP hasn't written a book yet actually. Maybe he hasn't had the time.

Writing is difficult when you are in constant motion and forevermore blistering into the night.