Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[bosk1]

It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

This may be the best thing I have ever read since...ever.

[commanderbob]

It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

This may be the best thing I have ever read since...ever.

I think so too.  However, this typo:

It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

......makes it even better since I'm picturing Eddie Vedder wielding veggie weapons with that crazy grin of his.

[bosk1]

I just figured it was British slang for some veggie or the other.

[hefdaddy42]

I would think so.  Hopefully it's something badass, like chard.

[TAC]

I thought a flannel was a sack. NO?

[TheGreatPretender]

I'll keep it short and sweet:

Jordan Rudess' solo section in A Rite of Passage is awesome!

[Rodni Demental]

I'll keep it short and sweet:

Jordan Rudess' solo section in A Rite of Passage is awesome!

YES! It totally is, completely mind-blowing really.

Reminds me a little bit of CM keyboard solo and I was really glad to hear JR classic solo synth tone in EM and IT because I was afraid he had gone off it after not really hearing it in ADTOE.

[carl320]

The Great Debate is a very good song, but when the keyboard solo starts, the feel of the song completely changes and I really liked it.  When the guitar solo starts, the feel comes back and the song finishes strong.  That keyboard solo really seems out of place and I don't like it.

[lithium112]

I'll keep it short and sweet:

Jordan Rudess' solo section in A Rite of Passage is awesome!

I didn't like the Bebot solo when I heard it on the album but it was so amazing hearing it live that it changed my mind and now I like it lol

[Nearmyth]

The Great Debate is a very good song, but when the keyboard solo starts, the feel of the song completely changes and I really liked it.  When the guitar solo starts, the feel comes back and the song finishes strong.  That keyboard solo really seems out of place and I don't like it.

Yeah, it does introduce a very different mood. I always really liked how it transitioned into 4/4 for the guitar solo though, that's one of the coolest parts of the song.

[Jaq]

It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

This may be the best thing I have ever read since...ever.

I don't even need to know the context, this wins any argument it comes up in. 

[SeRoX]

I thought Trial of Tears perfectly fits DT12 due to its mood and everything maybe even LITS.

[425]

Here's an opinion of mine, which I think is a bit controversial, that I thought of while listening to Black Clouds & Silver Linings again, inspired by the recent thread about that album:

The Shattered Fortress is what the band intended it to be: a well-structured finale to the Twelve-Step Suite that calls back to the other songs while existing as its own original musical entity, NOT a poorly made mish-mash of riffs. It's also one of the best songs in the suite. They fluctuate in my esteem (for example, I was really hot on The Glass Prison and The Root of All Evil and cold on This Dying Soul and Repentance for a while, now it's basically flipped), but The Shattered Fortress is the only one that I consistently love without qualms and has never been outside of my top 3 in the suite (currently: TDS, TSF, TGP, Repentance, TROAE).

[ThatOneGuy2112]

The Shattered Fortress is what the band intended it to be: a well-structured finale to the Twelve-Step Suite that calls back to the other songs while existing as its own original musical entity, NOT a poorly made mish-mash of riffs. It's also one of the best songs in the suite. They fluctuate in my esteem (for example, I was really hot on The Glass Prison and The Root of All Evil and cold on This Dying Soul and Repentance for a while, now it's basically flipped), but The Shattered Fortress is the only one that I consistently love without qualms and has never been outside of my top 3 in the suite (currently: TDS, TSF, TGP, Repentance, TROAE).

I agree. There are definitely enough well written and original moments for the song to stand on its own, and its reprises I feel aren't just thrown in there pointlessly, but add more flavor and texture to the song. They're done in a way that are undoubtedly familiar but at the same time strikingly refreshing. Now, I'm not too keen on every single part of the song--at some points I do feel that they go overboard with the technicality and wackiness that doesn't necessarily entice or excite me particularly, but those moments are pretty thin and far between. The ending is also fantastic, and a great way to end the suite as well.

[NotePad]

I feel that DT would benefit a lot if Jordan Rudness toned it down. Often it's like they're pretending he's a second guitarist for the band. I feel a lot of the songs would be a lot better if they were written with this in mind. The "wanking" would be less "wanky" Was just listening to 6DoIT and was thinking this. Glass Prison, Great Debate, all the songs really, are amazing but brought down by this. If the keyboardist wasn't treated like a guitarist, then they would be soooooo much better.
I know, i know, maybe DT isn't for me. But I love DT! except those parts that are just too much!

People sometimes put DT and Tool up there as the top Progressive Metal bands. And know DT has been influenced in the past by Tool. You can hear it on some stuff of 6FoIT, ToT, and even Scenes! What i notice most though is the bass parts of songs like Home and TGD sound like something Tool would do. Because the bassist in Tool isn't just a background player like i feel Myung is. My opinion is that DT needs to give Myung more time to shine! And for the rest of the band to realize that less is more.

[BlobVanDam]

I feel that DT would benefit a lot if Jordan Rudess toned it down.

I would argue the exact opposite.
DT with JR has been at their very best when they haven't kept him on such a short leash. Maybe if they gave him more space during the song (instead of burying it in guitar), he wouldn't feel the need to pack so many notes into the one section of the song where he's the centerpiece.

[puppyonacid]

I feel that DT would benefit a lot if Jordan Rudess toned it down.

I would argue the exact opposite.
DT with JR has been at their very best when they haven't kept him on such a short leash. Maybe if they gave him more space during the song (instead of burying it in guitar), he wouldn't feel the need to pack so many notes into the one section of the song where he's the centerpiece.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. He does seem to have been demoted to just part of the rhythm section. Ok so has his nice piano flurries on the slower or more thematic songs - plus he'll get a solo thrown in now and again. But, there is sooo much more to JR. I haven't listened to any of his solo stuff (I know I should) aside from bit here and there, but if you listen to LTE II or Scenes you can hear the influence he had on the band. That influence seems to be pushed to the side more and more.

[Sycsa]

That influence seems to be pushed to the side more and more.

I don't see such a tendency. Jordan's prominence has been fluctuating between albums after SDOIT and I was surprised how dominant he was on ADTOE. Granted, I expected and wanted to get more Jordan on DT12, especially seeing all the gear he hauled into the studio, but overall I don't have a problem with the way they're utilizing him.

I haven't listened to any of his solo stuff (I know I should)

   
I'm a big fusion-instrumental-prog fan, but I found his solo albums difficult to bear and often of bad taste (there are a few pretty cools songs here and there though, like Quantum Soup). Maybe it's best they keep him on a shorter leash. Sherinian's solo albums or Planet X run circles around him.

[Ben_Jamin]

The Alternate mix of SFAM is way way better than the original. Lots of things got buried with Kevin Shirleys mix.

[Grizz]

I haven't heard it in a while but I think I agree with that. His is missing some effects though.

[Ben_Jamin]

It is and those are some important effects to enhance the song.

[TheGreatPretender]

I would argue the exact opposite.
DT with JR has been at their very best when they haven't kept him on such a short leash. Maybe if they gave him more space during the song (instead of burying it in guitar), he wouldn't feel the need to pack so many notes into the one section of the song where he's the centerpiece.

I think he needs to tone it down with the synth, and bring out more natural sounds, namely piano and organ. But we know that's not gonna happen, considering how much he likes new soundz.

[Grizz]

Wither is weaker than A Rite of Passage, The Best of Times, or any other Black Clouds song.

[Zook]

The Count of Tuscany
The Shattered Fortress


Wither


A Nightmare to Remember



A Rite of Passage











The Best of Times

[TheGreatPretender]

The Count of Tuscany
The Shattered Fortress


Wither


A Nightmare to Remember



A Rite of Passage











The Best of Times

That's about right.

[Grizz]

The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember
The Shattered Fortress

The Best of Times
A Rite of Passage
Wither

[The Holy Tune]

The Shattered Fortress
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember

The Best of Times
A Rite of Passage
Wither

FTFY

[425]

I think Wither tops A Rite of Passage, just barely. It's extremely close though.

Ranking BCSL is hard for me, and not for the reason many of you have. It's hard because all the songs are so good.

But:

The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember
The Shattered Fortress
The Best of Times
Wither
A Rite of Passage

The last three are VERY close. The top three were a little bit easier to rank, but still are pretty close.

[Grizz]

I like your taste

[BlobVanDam]

The Alternate mix of SFAM is way way better than the original. Lots of things got buried with Kevin Shirleys mix.

A couple of the mixes are better, but overall I think the final mixes were better. I liked the alternate mix of Overture 1928, bringing out the acoustic guitar a bit more, but they were right to mix down some of the other sounds in the final mix. It's been a little while since I gave it a listen, so I can't remember the specifics of what else I preferred or liked less, but overall I know I preferred the final album.

[Madman Shepherd]

Wither is weaker than A Rite of Passage, The Best of Times, or any other Black Clouds song.

I would have to agree.  The song is all right, albeit a bit generic, but the subject matter is pretty bad. 



For what its worth here is my order:

A Rite of Passage (This song fucking rocks...I dont give a shit what anybody else thinks)

The Count of Tuscany (minus the lyrics)

The Shattered Fortress  (I'll pretend Mike doesn't yell COURTESY!!!! and the rest of the lyrics aren't bad)
The Best of Times (lyrics aren't as bad as a lot of people are making them out to be.  I do think they are too specific though)

A Nightmare to Remember (once again, horrible lyrics)




Wither (The actual lyrics aren't that bad but the subject matter is....weird.  A sorrowful song that basically says, "Sometimes I get writers block...and it kills me...then everything is right in the world and I can write agaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiin!!!!")

[Crow]

The Best of Times
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember

The Shattered Fortress
Wither






A Rite of Passage

sup

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

The Count
Nightmare
Wither
Best Of Times
Rite of Passage
Fortress


I actually really like all the songs, though.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Wither is probably in my bottom 10 DT songs. It has never clicked with me, and I honestly forget about it.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

The Count of Tuscany
The Shattered Fortress
The Best of Times
A Nightmare to Remember
Wither
A Rite of Passage