Coronavirus Thread v.2

[jingle.boy]

Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".

FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.   

Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk?  This is what I take issue with.  I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions.  If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it.  But don't in turn put mine at risk. 

I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate.  If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.

[lonestar]

Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".

FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.   

Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk?  This is what I take issue with.  I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions.  If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it.  But don't in turn put mine at risk. 

I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate.  If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.

This.

One person's precious freedoms shouldn't come at the cost of another's.

[Stadler]

He is not deplorable, stupid, in denial, or any of those fun things that we like to throw at people that don't live their lives exactly the way we want them to.

Okay. why doesn't he plan to vaccinate then?

Because he is scared of it.

I'm not sure "scared" is 100% accurate, but that's close enough.  He's not against it, he gets flu shots periodically, but doesn't trust the part of science that says "we would know if there is a problem within the first six months or so...".   He's being cautious.   As is his right.

[wolfking]

Over here since the Government really got a bit complacent over the last six months, they are starting to ramp up vaccinations.  But truthfully, I don't know what to think.  I don't even get flu shots anymore as they were making me sick, so I'm so reluctant to even think about a COVID jab.  Dunno, just don't trust it just yet.

[darkshade]

[darkshade]

That's just as false as what Darkshade is saying, in it's own way.

No it isn't. The only reason the pandemic has been as "undeadly" as it has been is because of measures like masks, self-isolation, lockdowns and travel restrictions keeping the R0 in check. IF you decide to remove those restrictions WITHOUT replacing it with an equally effective measure of reducing the transmission (like near universal vaccination), you WILL cause cases to increase and people to be hospitalised and die, same as if you take a "safe" car and remove all the safety mechanisms, more people will be more severely injured or die when those cars crash. This is is not my opinion, this is just how the virus works. You can of course have a discussion about how much death you are willing to accept as a society, but letting a virus propagate through a still majority-unvaccinated/partially vaccinated population is an extreme position that will maximse pain and suffering, and is a thoroughly counterproductive position, especially if it ends up breeding a variant that is vaccine resistant and fucks up all the progress we made so far.

Not sure what the point of comparing car crashes to covid survival rate, when you have a 73% chance of not getting into a car accident every day, and you have a 99.7% chance of surviving covid, which you'll get once (or twice if you're unlucky) and that survival rate only goes up if you are younger than 60.

[darkshade]

The 'spirit' of what I was saying is that the virus survival rate is incredibly high, especially for those under the age of 60, you didn't hear or see kids and young people dropping like flies, it's why the media has never been up front on WHO has been dying from this virus.

and for those unlucky to go to the hospital, we have technology to help and medication (much of which was censored)
but mostly this virus was as deadly for some as it was because of their diet, a diet of food that was APPROVED for consumption by govt bureaucrats, including foods with sugar, processed chemicals, lard, high fructose corn syrup, ingredients you cannot pronounce without taking a second to sound it out, etc.. plus tobacco products, something that was once considered safe and healthy, that helped lower their immune systems. Many 80 and 90 year old covid patients survived and are still alive today, so age isn't even necessarily a factor in and of itself.

[darkshade]

I think there are just like two words of people even within places like the US. You have the people who never changed one thing about their behavior because of the pandemic, and if they were lucky enough not to have experienced anything that would change their mind they just assume that everyone else was like them, not taking precautions or making voluntary sacrifices. A few of my in-laws are this way - they are blown away when they see family who still wear masks, they joke about "child abuse" "taking peoples kids away" when they see them wearing masks. They think the whole thing was made up, and ran its natural course, regardless of what precautions people took. Everyone who made some kind of sacrifice and even took the marginal personal risk of getting the vaccine get their efforts demeaned and devalued, of course THEY aren't part of the reason why the pandemic wasn't as bad as it could have been. Because to admit that would be to admit that they (my in-laws) are part of the reason why the pandemic has been as bad as it's going. 

It's as bad as it is because of disinfo coming from the entirety of the federal government early on, as well as CCP censoring doctors and scientists in 2019.
The rest unraveled from there. Thankfully, the internet has slowed the process of the US becoming a totalitarian state, a little... Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.

[darkshade]

Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.

Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC

[jingle.boy]

Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.

Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!

[darkshade]

Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".

That's not a yes or no question.   I am in favor of vaccines being readily available.  I got mine on literally the first day I was able to in my state.  My wife and three oldest kids all have them.  I arranged for my parents to get theirs.  I am in favor of everyone being able to make that choice for themselves.   Someone in my family, close to me, has not gotten one and doesn't plan to.   It is what it is.  He is not deplorable, stupid, in denial, or any of those fun things that we like to throw at people that don't live their lives exactly the way we want them to.

FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.   

I'm also not anti-vax. I don't want people getting polio, measles, small pox, etc... Those vaccines work.

I've also never told someone they shouldn't get the jab. That is something they need to discuss with their doctor and the ingredients should be well researched before you decide to put them into your body.

Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.

[jingle.boy]

Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.

Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC

If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information?  Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.

[darkshade]

Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.

Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!

I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.

[jingle.boy]

Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.

*awaits Stads to chime in chastising for ad-hominem attacks*

 

[cramx3]

Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.

Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC

So you are showing the vaccines work? I mean, in the US 48% of the population is fully vaxxed.  That's not even close to the rest of the world.

And what's the point of the twitter spamming of the same messages?  Makes me not think you are doing this:

It's as bad as it is because of disinfo

[darkshade]

Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.

Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC

If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information?  Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.

Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.

[jingle.boy]

Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.

Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!

I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.

Who are "they"?  Hydra?  The Cabal?  The Blacklist?  The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?

[darkshade]

They're called "twitter bots" and the tech companies are in lock step with the US federal government and the UN.

[darkshade]

Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.

Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!

I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.

Who are "they"?  Hydra?  The Cabal?  The Blacklist?  The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?

I can see you do not wish to engage with me on any serious level.

[jingle.boy]

Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.

Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC

If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information?  Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.

Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.

You know what a correlation is, right?  How do you think the US got to pre-pandemic hospitalization levels.

[darkshade]

Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.

[jingle.boy]

Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.

Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!

I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.

Who are "they"?  Hydra?  The Cabal?  The Blacklist?  The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?

I can see you do not wish to engage with me on any serious level.

I'm curious how I take anyone seriously who thinks "Twitter bots" that are colluding with the US Federal Government and the UN are "intending to escape to Mars".  If you believe that, then is it far fetched to think you believe in a secret Cabal? 

[lonestar]

 

[jingle.boy]

Speaking of misinformation ....

Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.

Fact:  First Covid-19 Vaccine Given to U.S. Public .... December 14, 2020

[lonestar]

Speaking of misinformation ....

Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.

Fact:  First Covid-19 Vaccine Given to U.S. Public .... December 14, 2020

And case spikes lead death spikes by a month as the disease runs its course

[cramx3]

Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.

Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC

If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information?  Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.

Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.

I don't think you understand how virus's work then.  The unvaccinated will allow the virus to continue to mutate and potentally reverse the posiitive effects of the vaccines.  It could make this similar to the flu and I don't think anyone wants to get to the point where we consistently need boosters to keep the at risk people from dying. 

[Stadler]

Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".

FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.   

Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk?  This is what I take issue with.  I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions.  If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it.  But don't in turn put mine at risk. 

I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate.  If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.

Why?  Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence.  That's the fallacy.  You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others.  Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential.   No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you.  I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy.  You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me).   All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with.   I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.

We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts.  There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc.  But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included).   All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society. 

[Stadler]

Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".

FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.   

Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk?  This is what I take issue with.  I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions.  If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it.  But don't in turn put mine at risk. 

I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate.  If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.

This.

One person's precious freedoms shouldn't come at the cost of another's.

And yet they do, every single day, in a multitude of ways.  It's actually nothing new.

[cramx3]

Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.

No they didn't, they dropped exactly the same time (OK maybe about a few weeks after as death's lag infections) as the vaccines started being admined at the end of December/beginning of January.  It's a very easy to see graph, looks almost like the infections. 

[Stadler]

Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.

I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer.  There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.

[Stadler]

Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.

*awaits Stads to chime in chastising for ad-hominem attacks*

 

See above (and posted before I saw your post).

[Stadler]

Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.

Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC

If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information?  Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.

Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.

You know what a correlation is, right?  How do you think the US got to pre-pandemic hospitalization levels.

Hearing you argue "correlation" makes me feel like the best dad on the planet. 



As I said above, I'm not in on a lot of what Darkshade is saying - the conspiracy side of things escapes me and Mars is, well, Mars - but what's the issue with the tweets?  It's pretty clear that BOTH SIDES are playing whatever game they need to play to get their point across.  Disinformation knows no partisan, ideological boundary.  That's an important point regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum.

And here's the point:  if the "I'm not getting vaccinated!" crowd is somehow "polluted" by the mis- and dis-information out there, why are the "we should ALL be vaccinated NOW!" crowd somehow immune, even if it's a matter of degree?   Why does the focus on these issues - falsehoods, conspiracies - always seem to flow along party/ideological lines?

[Adami]

This thread never fails to deliver.

[lonestar]

This thread never fails to deliver.

Agreed.

[Skeever]

Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.

I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer.  There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.

It is quite interesting to me that you so regularly choose to take the position of defending a post like this that is full of fallacious and false information just because you can glean a little kernel from it and use that to dangle some form of "I'm right about something you all don't see!" over the heads of everyone else. You're a smart guy, but is feeling intellectually one-step ahead of the rest of the forums at all times really that important to you?

I've seen you respond to several interesting, thoughtful posts on this forum (several of them authored by yours truly) by picking out a sentence or two you don't like and using that as an excuse to rationalize throwing out the entirety of someone else's point. Here you quote a post where 3/4ths of the ideas articulated are completely false, and respond with "you're getting warmer, here's how you're right about why everyone else here is being unreasonable!"