DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Vajra on July 05, 2011, 05:00:41 PM
-
The obvious answer is because "The music sounds good" but my question is, what is it about DT and the Prog Rock genre's music that draws you to it?
For me, the sound has a very unique, creative, and emotional edge. It doesn't just sound like some songs that were written for the sake of being catchy, they instead sound like a real piece of art (snobishness aside). With DT and prog, there's so much work and effort put into the songs, and it's just amazing to listen to it all. The genre never fails to deliver many different sounds, whether it be mellow, operatic, classical, etc, it's just fantastic.
Another reason would be, (no suprise here) I love long, complex structured songs. My favorite part about listening to music is when I have a chance to really embark on a musical voyage, and DT/Prog always provides it. I'm a very big fan of literature and film, so I'm naturally drawn to story-like songs.
And finally, for metal particularly, the power. The type of power and aggression you get from songs like The Glass Prison, or The Count of Tuscany is just incredible. I'm not an angry person in the slightest, but I'm really drawn to agression and power, things that I can head bang and go crazy to.
What about you guys?
-
The melodies, the metal, the non-metal, the rock, the melodies, the melodies, the melodies (lol dream theatre doesn't have melodies) the instrumental jams, THEY R TEH AWSUM! That goes for all the Prog bands I listen to. Not just DT.
-
Because I think for the most part they write good and interesting songs.
-
Because I think for the most part they write good and interesting songs.
This. The genre gives the band room to write a good variety as well. They mostly do well.
-
Because I think for the most part they write good and interesting songs.
Well, what about them do you find makes them good and interesting?
-
I wish DT was a little heavier than they currently are.
-
Because I think for the most part they write good and interesting songs.
Well, what about them do you find makes them good and interesting?
They way they juxtapose mixolydian scales over diminished 7th chords. I have no idea man, it sounds pleasant to my ears.
-
Because I think for the most part they write good and interesting songs.
Well, what about them do you find makes them good and interesting?
They way they juxtapose mixolydian scales over diminished 7th chords. I have no idea man, it sounds pleasant to my ears.
:lol I gotchya
-
I can't say that there is one reason I can pin down for why I like Dream Theater. They do a lot of things that I find interesting. If anything, I like Dream Theater because they're a band with a long tail. There's a lot of re-listening value to them. Lots of things to notice each subsequent time you hear a song, plus the band themselves are so talented, it's just easy to admire their skill.
I think I like progressive music in general because it's such an open category. "Progressive", to me, just means a band is doing something different. And that's all I really want in music; something different. If I wanted copycat bands playing the same thing that bands 10 years ago were playing, then I would be listening to a much different selection of music. The progressive genre is the genre of music that continues to surprise me with the ideas and innovations that bands are coming up with every year.
-
There's a lot of room for variety in the genre. That summarizes my feelings pretty well.
Like, I love In the Name of God, and I love Strange Deja vu, but I love them in completely different ways for completely different reasons.
Variety.
-
There's a lot of room for variety in the genre. That summarizes my feelings pretty well.
Like, I love In the Name of God, and I love Strange Deja vu, but I love them in completely different ways for completely different reasons.
Variety.
Dream Theater is easily one of the most diverse bands there is. The amount of styles they incoperate into their music is mind blowing. The only band I know of off the top of my head who is as diverse, if not more, would be Porcupine Tree.
-
Because they're be best fucking band ever!!! :metal
-
Because they're be best fucking band ever!!! :metal
-
Dream Theater is easily one of the most diverse bands there is. The amount of styles they incoperate into their music is mind blowing.
In all honesty though, this is pretty much the reason. That, and their compositions. The long, progressive songs that are always changing, and sometimes aren't even recognizable by the end, other than some recurring melodies. It's essentially classical music with modern instruments.
-
It's simple : DT is one of the few bands that are able to blend progressive and melodic music. That's what they do best.
They're progressive, but they are catchy as hell too. And that's remarkable.
-
It's simple : DT is one of the few bands that are able to blend progressive and melodic music. That's what they do best.
They're progressive, but they are catchy as hell too. And that's remarkable.
BUT! They can also play heavier stuff, and bring some "balls" to it.
So basically, it's like the whole thing that DT said they wanted to be. They wanted to be melodic and progressive like Rush, but at the same time, they wanted to be heavier and more Metal, like Iron Maiden. So yeah, what they were "trying to be" completely succeeded.
-
Dream Theater is easily one of the most diverse bands there is. The amount of styles they incoperate into their music is mind blowing.
In all honesty though, this is pretty much the reason. That, and their compositions. The long, progressive songs that are always changing, and sometimes aren't even recognizable by the end, other than some recurring melodies. It's essentially classical music with modern instruments.
I wouldn't say DT is classical music with modern instruments, they're extreamly close, but not quite there. If you want a modern Prog Metal band who has done it, check out the first 3 minutes of Symphony X's "The Odyssey" and the opening track of Paradise Lost, "Oculus ex Inferni" Those two songs have the complexity and arrangement style of classical pieces, where as DT relies a little more on repitation. Usually in instrumental sections of DT the riffs/melodies repeat themselves a bit, before it shifts into a new piece, where as with classical music, it's constantly re-aranging itself.
-
It's simple : DT is one of the few bands that are able to blend progressive and melodic music. That's what they do best.
They're progressive, but they are catchy as hell too. And that's remarkable.
Exactly. I love just about all Prog Metal bands, but very few songs by them are able to catch my attention like Dream Theater songs do. Dream Theater may not be Metallica catchy, but for a progessive metal band, they are the on top.
-
I wouldn't say DT is classical music with modern instruments, they're extreamly close, but not quite there. If you want a modern Prog Metal band who has done it, check out the first 3 minutes of Symphony X's "The Odyssey" and the opening track of Paradise Lost, "Oculus ex Inferni" Those two songs have the complexity and arrangement style of classical pieces, where as DT relies a little more on repitation. Usually in instrumental sections of DT the riffs/melodies repeat themselves a bit, before it shifts into a new piece, where as with classical music, it's constantly re-aranging itself.
Yeah, but the point is, it's always changing and turning into something different.
It kinda sucks that Queen didn't end up going that way. Bohemian Rhapsody is one of the most progressive pieces of music ever fit into 6 minutes. And then, sadly, they started doing Radio Gaga.
It makes me kinda glad that DT didn't end up becoming a Mainstream band in the long run.
-
Interestingly, I *really* like Dream Theater, but can't stand prog metal as a genre.
It kinda sucks that Queen didn't end up going that way. Bohemian Rhapsody is one of the most progressive pieces of music ever fit into 6 minutes. And then, sadly, they started doing Radio Gaga.
That's gotta be the narrowest view of Queen I have ever seen. Yes, they did Radio Gaga, but they also did Innuendo, Hammer to Fall and Good old-fashioned lover boy. Queen never stood still, and that's what made them great. They were way more prog than DT has been in the last 10 years.
rumborak
-
That's gotta be the narrowest view of Queen I have ever seen. Yes, they did Radio Gaga, but they also did Innuendo, Hammer to Fall and Good old-fashioned lover boy.
I know that, I'm a fan of Queen. Still, they've never done any really epic pieces like Bohemian Rhapsody again. Innuendo kinda came close, but it was more along the lines of ABA format, rather than ABCDE format, where everything changes constantly.
Queen never stood still, and that's what made them great. They were way more prog than DT has been in the last 10 years.
rumborak
Well, that's not really true. Regardless of how you feel about DT's post 2000 work, pieces like 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence and Octavarium as as Progressive as DT ever got, on part with the likes of A Change of Seasons and Learning to Live. So DT's always remained progressive.
Unless by Prog. you mean to have your music constantly change from album to album, in which case, I'd say DT and Queen have been on par. ESPECIALLY in the past 10 years, when every album DT puts out sounds completely different.
What I'm saying is, it's a pity Queen never went the Rush way of doing 20 minute epics with constant progression. Because they would've been amazing at it.
-
It's simple : DT is one of the few bands that are able to blend progressive and melodic music. That's what they do best.
They're progressive, but they are catchy as hell too. And that's remarkable.
That is a very good way to put it. :tup :tup
It kinda sucks that Queen didn't end up going that way. Bohemian Rhapsody is one of the most progressive pieces of music ever fit into 6 minutes. And then, sadly, they started doing Radio Gaga.
It makes me kinda glad that DT didn't end up becoming a Mainstream band in the long run.
Fail. Radio Ga-Ga is a better song than any of the four singles from the last two DT albums.
Interestingly, I *really* like Dream Theater, but can't stand prog metal as a genre.
Same here. Almost all of the "prog" music I like is rock, not metal.
I'd say DT and Queen have been on par. ESPECIALLY in the past 10 years, when every album DT puts out sounds completely different.
Say what? Every DT album sounds completely different? You're not serious, are you?
-
Say what? Every DT album sounds completely different? You're not serious, are you?
Why? Are you saying that Six Degrees sounds like Train of Thought sounds like Octavarium sounds like Systematic Chaos? Because I'd highly disagree.
-
There are differences, but on smaller levels. At their core, they all still heavily feature the DT sound. That is not a criticism, just the way it is. DT by their own admission never strays too far out of their prog metal box, so while they move all around that box a lot, it is still somewhat of a narrow one.
-
There are differences, but on smaller levels. At their core, they all still heavily feature the DT sound. That is not a criticism, just the way it is. DT by their own admission never strays too far out of their prog metal box, so while they move all around that box a lot, it is still somewhat of a narrow one.
It's really not. The sheer genre of Prog Metal makes that box far bigger than that of say, Thrash Metal, or Power Metal, or any other subgenre of Metal you could think of.
And yeah, in terms of genre, Queen did migrate quite a bit, from hard rock, to Disco, back to Hard Rock, to soft rock, etc. And they ended up alienating a lot of fans that way. Not me, because I have dynamic tastes in music. Heck, I even like the little rap that Rush did on "Roll The Bones." But a lot of fans were turned off by Queen's temporary departure from Rock. I enjoyed it the way I would enjoy pop music. But I'm certainly not going to listen to Raido Gaga if I want to hear anything even close to "Rock".
But as far as Prog Metal goes, I mean, listen to The Answer Lies Within, and then listen to Honor Thy Father, and then tell me that it's a narrow box.
-
It's really not. The sheer genre of Prog Metal makes that box far bigger than that of say, Thrash Metal, or Power Metal, or any other subgenre of Metal you could think of.
Who was talking about whether DT is more varied than a thrash band?
But as far as Prog Metal goes, I mean, listen to The Answer Lies Within, and then listen to Honor Thy Father, and then tell me that it's a narrow box.
Guy A: I want to get married
Guy B: Most of them end in divorce and you lose half your stuff to the woman
Guy A: My mom and dad have been married for 40 years
Guy B: Exception that proves the rule
Most of the songs over the last several years have definitely sounded very "same-y" even if there are some exceptions, as would be expected.
-
Who was talking about whether DT is more varied than a thrash band?
You said they never stay too far from the 'prog metal box' and that it was a narrow box. It's not. That's all I'm saying. Given any subgenre of music, Prog Metal is probably one of the most diverse ones out there. Hell, even multiple prog metal bands don't sound anything like one another. I mean, yeah, there's Queensryche. But if you consider the fact that Mastodon and Symphony X are considered Prog Metal bands, they don't sound anything like Queensryche or DT. And still, it's prog metal. So that's one diverse box.
Guy A: I want to get married
Guy B: Most of them end in divorce and you lose half your stuff to the woman
Guy A: My mom and dad have been married for 40 years
Guy B: Exception that proves the rule
Most of the songs over the last several years have definitely sounded very "same-y" even if there are some exceptions, as would be expected.
Well, then you need to rethink your definition of "Samey" because compared to the past 10 years of DT music, their 90's stuff sounded samey as well.
Every band sounds 'samey' on some level, and you learn that the more you listen to them. Hell, Queen is no exception. One Vision is pretty much a combination of Hammer To Fall and A King of Magic. Every band is samey on some level. Dream Theater is still one of the most diverse I've ever heard. The only thing that stayed consistent for the past 2 albums is that they were relatively heavier than their past stuff (ToT excluding).
-
The sheer genre of Prog Metal makes that box far bigger than that of say, Thrash Metal, or Power Metal, or any other subgenre of Metal you could think of.
So? Being less narrow than a very narrow genre doesn't make that genre not narrow, per se.
Heck, I even like the little rap that Rush did on "Roll The Bones."
I do, too! Always have. :)
But a lot of fans were turned off by Queen's temporary departure from Rock.
I imagine I would have hurled at the time had I been a fan when Hot Space was released. :lol
But even though The Works had Radio Ga-Ga (a fun pop which absolutely slayed live), it also Hammer to Fall, which rocked like a mother.
But as far as Prog Metal goes, I mean, listen to The Answer Lies Within, and then listen to Honor Thy Father, and then tell me that it's a narrow box.
See what slycordinator said (since he said it well).
-
Who was talking about whether DT is more varied than a thrash band?
You said they never stay too far from the 'prog metal box' and that it was a narrow box. It's not. That's all I'm saying. Given any subgenre of music, Prog Metal is probably one of the most diverse ones out there. Hell, even multiple prog metal bands don't sound anything like one another. I mean, yeah, there's Queensryche. But if you consider the fact that Mastodon and Symphony X are considered Prog Metal bands, they don't sound anything like Queensryche or DT. And still, it's prog metal. So that's one diverse box.
Prog rock is far more diverse than prog metal. :biggrin:
-
The sheer genre of Prog Metal makes that box far bigger than that of say, Thrash Metal, or Power Metal, or any other subgenre of Metal you could think of.
So? Being less narrow than a very narrow genre doesn't make that genre not narrow, per se.
Heck, I even like the little rap that Rush did on "Roll The Bones."
I do, too! Always have. :)
But a lot of fans were turned off by Queen's temporary departure from Rock.
I imagine I would have hurled at the time had I been a fan when Hot Space was released. :lol
But even though The Works had Radio Ga-Ga (a fun pop which absolutely slayed live), it also Hammer to Fall, which rocked like a mother.
But as far as Prog Metal goes, I mean, listen to The Answer Lies Within, and then listen to Honor Thy Father, and then tell me that it's a narrow box.
See what slycordinator said (since he said it well).
Baah, I just pretty much addressed all of these things above.
Prog rock is far more diverse than prog metal. :biggrin:
I disagree. But I really don't wanna have a big discussion on Prog Metal vs. Prog Rock. So let's just leave it at that, please.
-
The term "prog" doesn't really hold water like it used to Great Pretender. It's a fancy word that is used to categorize a different style of music, to put it simply. Yeah bands like Mastodon and Symphony X and Opeth are all different and all have the "prog metal" label slapped on them, but I really think that's just another term, and one that should be taken with a grain of salt. Given how broad the term "prog" has become, there's very little "in-box" cohesion happening.
-
The term "prog" doesn't really hold water like it used to Great Pretender. It's a fancy word that is used to categorize a different style of music, to put it simply. Yeah bands like Mastodon and Symphony X and Opeth are all different and all have the "prog metal" label slapped on them, but I really think that's just another term, and one that should be taken with a grain of salt. Given how broad the term "prog" has become, there's very little "in-box" cohesion happening.
That's my whole point. These days Prog isn't tied down by any specific type of sound, so there are so many places to go. So even though a lot of Dream Theater's sound still comes inspired by the Prog Rock of old, they're still one of the most diverse bands out there. You have Six Degrees, and that's a solid Prog Metal album, with even songs like Solitary Shell, which is, yeah, borderline pop.
Then you have an album like Train of Thought, and it's completely different, it's super heavy throughout, only having one really mellow piece which is only 2 minutes long.
Then it goes back to Octavarium which, apart from a couple of songs, was pretty much softer than Six Degrees.
Then from that to a melodic, but still very heavy album like Systematic Chaos. That's diverse, man.
Read the reasons why some of the above people like DT:
Because I think for the most part they write good and interesting songs.
This. The genre gives the band room to write a good variety as well. They mostly do well.
There's a lot of room for variety in the genre. That summarizes my feelings pretty well.
Like, I love In the Name of God, and I love Strange Deja vu, but I love them in completely different ways for completely different reasons.
Variety.
Dream Theater is easily one of the most diverse bands there is. The amount of styles they incoperate into their music is mind blowing. The only band I know of off the top of my head who is as diverse, if not more, would be Porcupine Tree.
So yeah, clearly DT is one of the most diverse bands out there, I don't see why this is a point of argument. And no, that fact had not changed in the past 10 years. I'm sorry if people don't enjoy their more recent albums as much, but lack of 'variety' is not the reason.
-
Because of the great big variety of sound or music lets say that this genre has alone. Also because of the creativity and imagination that has to go into each song. Also the complexity of the songs and how hard sometimes they are to play into their respective instruments. Also because DT is just fucking awesome and so is every other good prog band out there. :metal :metal :metal
-
Because of the great big variety of sound or music lets say that this genre has alone. Also because of the creativity and imagination that has to go into each song. Also the complexity of the songs and how hard sometimes they are to play into their respective instruments. Also because DT is just fucking awesome and so is every other good prog band out there. :metal :metal :metal
Variety! :metal
-
Variety and talent! :metal
-
Because they're so energy. So powah!
-
Because their technical skill level allows them to incorporate many different genres into their music. Their discography is really unique (SFAM, I&W, FII and TOT can't be classified as the same type of album for me)
-
The term "prog" doesn't really hold water like it used to Great Pretender. It's a fancy word that is used to categorize a different style of music, to put it simply. Yeah bands like Mastodon and Symphony X and Opeth are all different and all have the "prog metal" label slapped on them, but I really think that's just another term, and one that should be taken with a grain of salt. Given how broad the term "prog" has become, there's very little "in-box" cohesion happening.
That's my whole point. These days Prog isn't tied down by any specific type of sound, so there are so many places to go. So even though a lot of Dream Theater's sound still comes inspired by the Prog Rock of old, they're still one of the most diverse bands out there. You have Six Degrees, and that's a solid Prog Metal album, with even songs like Solitary Shell, which is, yeah, borderline pop.
Then you have an album like Train of Thought, and it's completely different, it's super heavy throughout, only having one really mellow piece which is only 2 minutes long.
Then it goes back to Octavarium which, apart from a couple of songs, was pretty much softer than Six Degrees.
Then from that to a melodic, but still very heavy album like Systematic Chaos. That's diverse, man.
Specious reasoning. Don't do it.
I see what you're driving at, but I really don't see the big difference between those albums. Yes, there are some songs that deviate from the typical Dream Theater sound, but overall, they are producing pretty much paint-by-numbers songs.
I'm saying that there's a lot of difference between bands in the prog metal genre. When it comes to Dream Theater, there is a lot of a same-y sound. It's not a complaint, it's just how it is.
You were comparing The Answer Lies Within and Honor Thy Father, and deducing that because those songs are so different, prog metal is a broad genre. But one band does not define a genre. That's like me saying, "hey Green Day's 'Good Riddance' and 'American Idiot' sound so different from each other, the punk rock genre must be so varied!"
-
Well, everything has been said already ;) skills, variety, complexity, creativity, involvement..
I like progressive music because it's not like listening to one song several times and being able to say: ok, now I know it well, I fully understand it. It takes more time to appreciate the songs but they are definitely worth it. And even if you listen one track quite long, when you come back to it later, even year or two years later it still sounds kinda fresh and still there is something 'new' to 'explore'.
And don't know if I said it clear.. I'm not english :blush
-
Before i listen to DT, i listen to LTE. i was amazed by their skill, and the complexity of the music. later i switch to DT, John Myung's bass skill really, really amazing ( i am a bass player ) , than i fall in love with DT.
-
Samara pretty much said everything i wanted to say... Like everyone also says, it's the complexity of the sound, and songs in general, and that there's a much deeper meaning than in other music. If you compare a standard pop-4-chord song to something like Octavarium, you can't quite believe that both are categorized as "music". It's so complex, and that's why I never get tired of it. You always hear something you didn't hear last time, and even if you know the music 100%, there is probably still a story told with it, that you can't quite understand by listening a couple of times.
Also, there's the skill of each and every member of DT, and the way they play together. All of them are of the worlds greatest at their respective fields, and that makes it a bit more interesting to me, as a guitarist, to have something to reach for.
I think one reason i like it the way I do, is that I don't fully understand it. It's something about it that makes it interesting. The music grows on you, and you'll end up liking every song, once you listen to it enough.
-
Interestingly, I *really* like Dream Theater, but can't stand prog metal as a genre.
Same here. Almost all of the "prog" music I like is rock, not metal.
I'm not even sure I make the distinction between prog rock and metal in that regard. Even though, you're probably right.
I installed a streaming radio app on my Android the other day and listened to a prog rock/metal stream for a while. I had to turn it off, the music was constantly so bad.
I find the problem with prog is often that only a few bands can really handle the level of comfort in complexity, while at the same time still writing a song. So, you get all these songs that are "prog by number": Piano intro, check. Operatic singer, check. Weedly weedly song, check. Good songwriting .... nowhere to be seen.
Regarding Queen's pop phase .... haha, I still to this day love almost every single song of that phase. DT has written many more super-prog songs that I don't care about at all.
rumborak
-
You said they never stay too far from the 'prog metal box' and that it was a narrow box. It's not. That's all I'm saying. Given any subgenre of music, Prog Metal is probably one of the most diverse ones out there. Hell, even multiple prog metal bands don't sound anything like one another. I mean, yeah, there's Queensryche. But if you consider the fact that Mastodon and Symphony X are considered Prog Metal bands, they don't sound anything like Queensryche or DT. And still, it's prog metal. So that's one diverse box.
1) I'm not the one who said that.
2) Claiming that there are genres more narrow than prog metal doesn't mean that prog metal is a highly diverse genre.
3) I'm not so certain if I'd consider Symphony X to be prog metal. Though I certainly wouldn't consider them diverse.
4) The claim also wasn't so much that prog metal is not diverse but that DT's part of it has become less and less diverse the last few years.
Well, then you need to rethink your definition of "Samey" because compared to the past 10 years of DT music, their 90's stuff sounded samey as well.
Well then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think WDADU, I&W, and Awake are much more different from each other than the sounds in the last few albums.
Regarding Queen's pop phase .... haha, I still to this day love almost every single song of that phase. DT has written many more super-prog songs that I don't care about at all.
rumborak
Reminds me of when this famous conductor was asked by a new composer why it was so difficult to get the general public to listen to his modern compositions that used a lot of stuff like dissonance and such. The guy referenced how a group like Deep Purple wrote lots of fairly simple music and how their music would likely touch far more music lovers than his piece. Granted, he'd just gotten done being the conductor for their Europe concerto tour...
-
DT, for me, is the culmination of a lot of my favourite genres/bands. Seriously, it's like one big melting pot of:
- Movie soundtracks
- Classical/Baroque
- Videogame music
- Thrash metal riffs (Metallica)
- Classical rock (Zep)
- Muse
I was pretty much guaranteed to love DT.
-
Because Dream Theater is interesting. When I listen to a DT album, I'm not listening to different variations of the exact same song, I'm actually listening to different songs. Dream Theater also makes actual music. I listen to the radio nowadays and most of the music there completely and utterly pathetic, a bunch of annoying lyrics with a beat in the background, perhaps a note or two are thrown occasionally, and maybe a guitarist with start thrashing some basic chords again and again. Dream Theater makes actual music, however, I have been disappointed by DT's musicality on one or two occasions.
-
i like DT because of the technique all members have (cyurrent and past). i like there song structure i like the solos the drumming the complexity and that gives me energy and ideas for my own music..influence that is....
i dont like high vocals at all...but for some reason DT can pull it of and i like/love it. i like the lyrics and the melodies.
dt is i guess a love em or hate em band...and i love them from day 1.
but i do guess that if i was now young again...maybe i didn't fell in love with them anymore.
there are other complex tech bands as well (nevermore, sympony x and so on)...
so i'nm glad that 21 years ago i feel in love with them....
DT for live :yarr
-
Because they're so energy. So powah!
I saw what you did there you forgot to type fuk at the end of that sentence though lol!!!!!
-
As far as DT goes its simple for me it's the varaity and the great musicianship all around , I love changes only in music though lol!!
But really I do love the way they incorporate there changes in the style within a song they do it right!!
I love the time changes , melodic , and so called wankery , songs with storys / feeling / talent non repetitive and so on.
There are lots of other bands i could comment on but only a handfull that i feel give me the sounds i want to hear.
-
Because they look great, you can dance to their music, they have tons of love songs, and they're on the radio.
-
Specious reasoning. Don't do it.
I see what you're driving at, but I really don't see the big difference between those albums. Yes, there are some songs that deviate from the typical Dream Theater sound, but overall, they are producing pretty much paint-by-numbers songs.
I'm saying that there's a lot of difference between bands in the prog metal genre. When it comes to Dream Theater, there is a lot of a same-y sound. It's not a complaint, it's just how it is.
You were comparing The Answer Lies Within and Honor Thy Father, and deducing that because those songs are so different, prog metal is a broad genre. But one band does not define a genre. That's like me saying, "hey Green Day's 'Good Riddance' and 'American Idiot' sound so different from each other, the punk rock genre must be so varied!"
Paint by numbers would be to have every song be 3 minutes, "Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Solo, Chorus, Outro." That's pretty much 80% of rock/metal songs out there, give or take a few elements. If Dream Theater is Pain by Numbers, then they clearly define their own numbers. Which is still makes them more varied and more progressive than 90% of bands out there.
And yes, it's a good thing that DT doesn't stray too far from their element. Like I said, if DT decided to go all Thrash on one album, I think they'd piss a lot of fans off. Or even the way LaBrie's last album was, if that was a DT album, I'd be pretty disappointed in it. Bands like Paradise Lost ended up losing a LOT of fans from constantly switching up their genre.
I still don't see how you can deny the fact that DT is diverse, when so many people say they like DT BECAUSE they're diverse. Yes, they have their own 'signature' sound, but so does every other band out there. The only bands that don't have a signature sound are the ones that still haven't found their particular direction in music, and for them it's just a matter of time. They'll have the world at their feet by tomorrow, when they sign on the line.
Ahem, anyway, even Queen, in spite its diversity had a clear "Queen" sound, certain signature things about their music that made it easily recognizable as Queen songs.
So we must really have different definitions of 'Diverse' because I don't see how we're still at an impass.
-
Because they look great, you can dance to their music, they have tons of love songs, and they're on the radio.
Haha, great! ;D
-
I'm not denying DT is diverse. They have made songs that sound different. But, every song still has a very familiar sound to it. Not exactly the same, but still familiar. Some, like yourself, enjoy the "DT sound" and how consistent it is. I'm not saying I don't enjoy that, but I would very much appreciate a total shakeup to DT's musical direction. Train of Thought went in a heavy direction, primarily, I would like them to try that sort of thing again, but maybe a more classic rock-sounding album, or more melodic.
And by paint-by-numbers, I mean that Panic Attack pretty much has the same sound as Beyond This Life, which has pretty much the same sound as A Rite of Passage, which pretty much has the same sound as The Glass Prison. Dream Theater basically either writes an epic, a ballad, a hyper-technical piece, or a formulaic verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-solo-chorus song. Outside of a few legitimate surprises, pretty much all of their songs fall into one of those categories.
-
Paint by numbers would be to have every song be 3 minutes, "Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Solo, Chorus, Outro." That's pretty much 80% of rock/metal songs out there, give or take a few elements. If Dream Theater is Pain by Numbers, then they clearly define their own numbers. Which is still makes them more varied and more progressive than 90% of bands out there.
And yes, it's a good thing that DT doesn't stray too far from their element. Like I said, if DT decided to go all Thrash on one album, I think they'd piss a lot of fans off. Or even the way LaBrie's last album was, if that was a DT album, I'd be pretty disappointed in it. Bands like Paradise Lost ended up losing a LOT of fans from constantly switching up their genre.
Sorry, but 20-minute epics, shitloads of guitar and keyboard solos, and double-bass drums don't immediately qualify a song or a band as diverse or progressive. Any band can get stuck in a rut of repetition, which is what has happened to DT in the last decade or so. Progressive means to expand, diversify, and try out new things.
I still don't see how you can deny the fact that DT is diverse, when so many people say they like DT BECAUSE they're diverse. Yes, they have their own 'signature' sound, but so does every other band out there. The only bands that don't have a signature sound are the ones that still haven't found their particular direction in music, and for them it's just a matter of time. They'll have the world at their feet by tomorrow, when they sign on the line.
Because they haven't done very many new things at this point in their career. Stark differences in tone doesn't count for much, if anything at all. Setra has already said anything else I could possibly add here.
Ahem, anyway, even Queen, in spite its diversity had a clear "Queen" sound, certain signature things about their music that made it easily recognizable as Queen songs.
So we must really have different definitions of 'Diverse' because I don't see how we're still at an impass.
Because you're splitting hairs with all of Setra's perfectly good, reasonable points.
-
I agree with setra and Ravenheart.
Also, avant-garde is what prog use to be back in the days. Bands like Ulver, for example, are really making "progressive" music.
-
If there is only one actually progressive band in this day and age, it's definitely Ulver.
-
I can't disagree with that.
-
And by paint-by-numbers, I mean that Panic Attack pretty much has the same sound as Beyond This Life, which has pretty much the same sound as A Rite of Passage, which pretty much has the same sound as The Glass Prison. Dream Theater basically either writes an epic, a ballad, a hyper-technical piece, or a formulaic verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-solo-chorus song. Outside of a few legitimate surprises, pretty much all of their songs fall into one of those categories.
That's still more categories than most bands out there have, most of them just stick to the formulaic. But regardless, you can compare two of DT's ballads, you can say, "The Answer Lies Within" and "Hollow Years" are both melancholy ballads, so they're same types of songs. But they still sound different. Obviously the actual songs are different. It's not like one completely makes the other obsolete.
And you're comparing Panic Attack, to Beyond This Life, to A Rite of Passage? They might have similar elements, but comparing the first and the last, Panic Attack does NOT sound like A Rite of Passage. They have very different moods to them.
And like I said, you take any other band, and you're gonna spot the same sorts of similarities between the songs they have. Hell, frankly, Iron Maiden is less diverse than DT, yet people still follow them religiously. And they fully deserve it. So does DT.
I don't know who all these bands are, that are so incredibly diverse that it sounds like listening to two different bands.
Sorry, but 20-minute epics, shitloads of guitar and keyboard solos, and double-bass drums don't immediately qualify a song or a band as diverse or progressive. Any band can get stuck in a rut of repetition, which is what has happened to DT in the last decade or so.
Maybe having one 20 minute epic doesn't make a band diverse. But look at Octavarium. Having an album with songs like "The Root of All Evil," "The Answer Lies Within," "I Walk Beside You," and "Octavarium" on it does. Those songs are all very different in nature, all by one band on one album. That's more diverse than almost any other well known band out there. Hell, it's more diverse than either of DT's first three albums.
Progressive means to expand, diversify, and try out new things.
I thought the 'textbook' definition of progressive music was having frequent, complex time changes?
But try new things? Like what? Should DT make an Industrial album? Or a Death Metal album? Going out of their comfort zone wouldn't make them any more progressive than they already are. DT is DT, and in the past 10 years, the music they made had been just as great, diverse and interesting as they did in the first 15 years of their career.
You can call Ulver new, experimental and interesting all you want, but I'd still rather listen to DT. It's about what sounds good, not about what's "The most innovative".
-
Ulver sounds way better than DT, that's not even a question for me. :P Also, there's quantity of bands that doesn't follow a formula. Really a shitloads of bands. And yeah, going out of there comfort zone would actually be a step into a more progressive direction.
-
I can't disagree with that.
Shocking! :lol
-
I'm into long lovemaking with peaks and valleys and DT is good for that. Yes Double bass drumming pleases me.
-
I'm into long lovemaking with peaks and valleys and DT is good for that. Yes Double bass drumming pleases me.
Why are you always WRONG
-
Saying "they still sound different" is a really thin argument to make. Imagine that? A band made two songs that sound different from one another :\ Fuck, no matter how sarcastic some of us get about saying certain bands make the same song over and over again, in reality EVERY band makes different songs. Having different moods does not mean that the songs fall into different categories.
Panic Attack: Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-solo-solo-chorus
A Rite of Passage: Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-solo-chorus
Obviously I being mildly facetious. They are clearly not the same song, but if you can't see the similarities besides meekly stating "derp, they might have similar elements", then I'm sorry I can't help you.
The thing is, Dream Theater will always still be undeniably prog, even if they don't do anything progressive ever again. Prog is a label for life.
Look at Rush, they made 4-5 true progressive albums in the 70s-80s, and then really didn't make anything truly "proggy" after that. Yet, every album is still put into the progressive rock category. Rush is in the club for life, even if they aren't trying to make the old prog stuff anymore.
Dream Theater is the same. They haven't tried to make anything truly new in a long time. They know as long as they have some odd time signatures, and a bunch of layered keyboard sounds, they'll be the darling of prog fans.
TheGreatPretender, you seem like you know of plenty of other interesting bands, so I find it surprising that you are still saying that no one holds a candle to Dream Theater when it comes to diversity and creativity, when there are so many bands out there that are truly innovating, rather than just saying "Hey, how about we try a 27/8 time signature for this song? That'll impress some nerds!"
-
I thought the 'textbook' definition of progressive music was having frequent, complex time changes?
If you aren't being sarcastic here, then this is the core of the problem.
-
Ulver sounds way better than DT, that's not even a question for me. :P Also, there's quantity of bands that doesn't follow a formula. Really a shitloads of bands. And yeah, going out of there comfort zone would actually be a step into a more progressive direction.
Well, that's a matter of preference, then. Ulver sounds to me like "Progressive Industrial".
But okay, let's say DT hasn't been doing any crazy new things lately... What does that make their genre of music then? You tell me, because apart from "Progressive Metal" I can't think of one.
And frankly, personally, I've always considered the idea of "Progressive Music" the music that actually progresses as it goes on, like Change of Seasons, like Dance of Eternity, like Octavarium. Best examples. If there's a hard written rule for what "Progressive Music" is, then I guess any given Progressive Band that I like, I like for reasons other than being "Progressive" because I really don't care how crazy and new and innovative their music is. I care about how good of musicians they are, and how virtuosic and complex their songs get. That's why I like Dream Theater.
TheGreatPretender, you seem like you know of plenty of other interesting bands, so I find it surprising that you are still saying that no one holds a candle to Dream Theater when it comes to diversity and creativity, when there are so many bands out there that are truly innovating, rather than just saying "Hey, how about we try a 27/8 time signature for this song? That'll impress some nerds!"
I know plenty of interesting bands. But as far as I can think of, all of them have their trademark sound the way Dream Theater does. And when it comes to their songs, they still have a relatively same sound from one song to another. And still less diversity amongst themselves than Dream Theater does among itself.
Sure, the argument can be said that Dream Theater has it's really heavy songs, and it's ballads, and all their heavy songs or ballads sound similar. But the fact is, those are still VASTLY opposite sides of the spectrum. Like I said, going back to Honor Thy Father and The Answer Lies Within. The vast majority of bands who play music similar to "Honor Thy Father" wouldn't go NEAR a song like The Answer Lies Within, because they're heavier that and chances are, they'd be afraid that their fans will think "That's soft shit. I want Metal, man!" And vice versa.
So okay, let's not say "Diversity" let's say Dream Theater covers a biggest RANGE of music. Does that make more sense?
-
That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally not innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.
Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.
-
That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.
Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.
Examples?
-
Dream Theater have the widest range of music out there?
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
-
That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.
Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.
Examples?
https://unexpect.bandcamp.com/album/fables-of-the-sleepless-empire
-
Dream Theater have the widest range of music out there?
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Who does? I'm just curious. I'd say Porcupine Tree is more diverse, they're the only band I know of off the top of my head.
-
I'd throw Thrice into the mix. They hit a lot of genres (TAI a blatant example).
-
That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.
Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.
Examples?
Tool
dredg
Porcupine Tree
Pain of Salvation
Devin Townsend
Protest the Hero
Scale the Summit
Opeth
Mastodon
Anathema
The Pineapple Thief
Lady Gaga
The Mars Volta
Shadow Gallery
Thrice
Wolverine
Pure Reason Revolution
Bolded bands are ones that I think are shining examples of how a band can have a repertoire of many different sides of the stylistic spectrum, and yet do it all in ways I have never heard before, and remain consistently themselves while not ostracising too many fans in the process.
-
Not to mention, creating music that's actually good.
-
Thrice is a good pick too.. but yeah the range of Unexpect is really something else.
-
Thrice is a good pick too.. but yeah the range of Unexpect is really something else.
I only know a bit of Unexpect. They're not really my thing, but I won't deny that they are pretty cool and create very unexpected tunes...
...
...
:neverusethis:
-
HO HO HO
-
https://unexpect.bandcamp.com/album/fables-of-the-sleepless-empire
I know Unexpect, and yes, they're diverse, and unique, and interesting. But I honestly can't stand too much of them. Yes, they get crazy. Very crazy. And sometimes, so crazy that it's practically unlistenable. And frankly, I'm not a fan of Death Metal Screaming. I think it's damaging their music.
Personally, I think there is such thing as Too Extreme. Which is why I don't get people who say like, "Oh yeah, I loved Iron Maiden, they were my favorite Metal Band. But then I needed something heavier, so I started listening to Megadeth. But then I needed something heavier, so now my new favorite band is Cannibal Corpse." And in the case of Unexpect, yes they have some very pleasant things about their music, their orchestral, melodic parts are awesome, but they almost get canceled out by the crazy, chaotic Death Metal parts.
Tool
dredg
Porcupine Tree
Pain of Salvation
Devin Townsend
Protest the Hero
Scale the Summit
Opeth
Mastodon
Anathema
The Pineapple Thief
Lady Gaga
The Mars Volta
Shadow Gallery
Thrice
Wolverine
Pure Reason Revolution
Bolded bands are ones that I think are shining examples of how a band can have a repertoire of many different sides of the stylistic spectrum, and yet do it all in ways I have never heard before, and remain consistently themselves while not ostracising too many fans in the process.
Lady Gaga? You're seriously gonna tell me that Lady Gaga has as much range and variety as DT? Gimme a break. New and unique? Sure. But while she has SOME variety, it's not that much.
I don't hear anything unique or innovative about Tool, or Opeth, or Thrice. Maybe they're diverse, but I wouldn't say they're anymore unique or innovative than DT. DT still has a sound that's more unique than those bands. What I mean is, I heard plenty of bands that have a similar sound to Tool. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe those bands were imitating Tool, and Tool was the first to do that sound. But I still don't think it's all that interesting. Opeth I guess to an extent has something unique about it, but I still wouldn't put it as more diverse or interesting than Dream Theater.
Now, it's another thing if you dig those sounds more than Dream Theater, there's nothing wrong with that. But that can't be debated, because it's all a matter of opinion. And sure, those bands are good in their own right. It's not like I never heard them before. They just never caught my attention enough to say, "This sounds great. I definitely want to hear more from this band." Which was even something I said about Disturbed, even if they're not all that diverse at all.
-
If you like them or not is a question of tastes. I'm just saying that Unexpect covers a wider range than DT, for example.
-
Lady Gaga? You're seriously gonna tell me that Lady Gaga has as much range and variety as DT? Gimme a break. New and unique? Sure. But while she has SOME variety, it's not that much.
Yeah I really do believe that. I said it the other thread that I found Lady Gaga's first two albums (Not Born This Way, though. Was not as amazing at it could have been) more interesting then Dream Theater's two most recent albums. She's got more different and unique things going for her then Dream Theater does right now. I feel like you are really only familiar with her singles, but her deeper cuts are trying out a lot more unusual stuff than you would expect from her.
I don't hear anything unique or innovative about Tool, or Opeth, or Thrice. Maybe they're diverse, but I wouldn't say they're anymore unique or innovative than DT. DT still has a sound that's more unique than those bands. What I mean is, I heard plenty of bands that have a similar sound to Tool. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe those bands were imitating Tool, and Tool was the first to do that sound. But I still don't think it's all that interesting. Opeth I guess to an extent has something unique about it, but I still wouldn't put it as more diverse or interesting than Dream Theater.
Now, it's another thing if you dig those sounds more than Dream Theater, there's nothing wrong with that. But that can't be debated, because it's all a matter of opinion. And sure, those bands are good in their own right. It's not like I never heard them before. They just never caught my attention enough to say, "This sounds great. I definitely want to hear more from this band." Which was even something I said about Disturbed, even if they're not all that diverse at all.
Yeah, I know it does come down to opinion. Normally, I really have no strong opinion for or against DT, but recently, there have been an influx of new members to DTF, and all of them seem to share the same "DREAM THEATER IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!!" mentality, and I'm here to state my opinion, which is that of someone who has grown a bit tired and cynical of DT's recent sound. You began to argue, and I love a good debate (which this has been, by the way. Well argued, sir.) so I rebutted.
Of course this is boiling down to my opinion, and so I shared some bands I like that I think are blazing trails in the music world that I am interested in following. It's up to you what to make of that. Go ahead and believe that Dream Theater has a vast range of styles and is still is fresh, I just won't agree.
-
If you like them or not is a question of tastes. I'm just saying that Unexpect covers a wider range than DT, for example.
They still have that "Unexpect" sound. ESPECIALLY because of how unique and crazy they are. You hear it and you go, "Yeah, that's definitely Unexpect." So it's not like having "A Trademark Sound" makes someone less unique or diverse. And I'm sorry if you weren't the one who argued that. I'm seriously losing track here. I feel like my brain is gonna explode.
Yeah I really do believe that. I said it the other thread that I found Lady Gaga's first two albums (Not Born This Way, though. Was not as amazing at it could have been) more interesting then Dream Theater's two most recent albums. She's got more different and unique things going for her then Dream Theater does right now. I feel like you are really only familiar with her singles, but her deeper cuts are trying out a lot more unusual stuff than you would expect from her.
Well, no, I have to admit, I'm not intimately familiar with Lady Gaga's library. I know she does dance pop and acoustic ballads. So if she has some Heavy Metal songs in her repertoire that I'm unaware of, then you win. Otherwise, I still wouldn't say that's more variety.
Yeah, I know it does come down to opinion. Normally, I really have no strong opinion for or against DT, but recently, there have been an influx of new members to DTF, and all of them seem to share the same "DREAM THEATER IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!!" mentality, and I'm here to state my opinion, which is that of someone who has grown a bit tired and cynical of DT's recent sound. You began to argue, and I love a good debate (which this has been, by the way. Well argued, sir.) so I rebutted.
Of course this is boiling down to my opinion, and so I shared some bands I like that I think are blazing trails in the music world that I am interested in following. It's up to you what to make of that. Go ahead and believe that Dream Theater has a vast range of styles and is still is fresh, I just won't agree.
Well, I don't know what you mean by "Still Fresh" though. I don't need the newest and freshest thing. Frankly, anything new is fresh to me. I think some of the most classic bands out there are still making some of their best music. Specifically Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.
And no, I don't think Black Clouds was one of DT's best works, but honestly, I really liked Systematic Chaos, and I thought that sounded plenty fresh. I thought it sounded very modern in spite of still retaining the trademark DT sound. Yet most DT fans hate the crap out of it.
Sidebar: Oh yeah, believe me, I wouldn't still be going on if I didn't enjoy a good debate. It's like red meat. Sometimes I just need it.
-
Lady Gaga does have a song called "Heavy Metal Lover" on Born This Way. It's not really a metal song, but it's pretty much her love letter to her favourite band, Iron Maiden. I can't really describe the song's sound, it's really unusual.
In 73109's thread in GMD, he asked "what makes a good album?", and I responded that a good album will make me feel something. Some Dream Theater albums have held that feeling I had the first time I heard it. With SC and BC&SL, I felt nothing hearing them. I have no connection to them, and I could never love them on a level past simple respect for their musicianship.
-
Also dude, the reason I'm picking on you is because of your quote in that thread:
"Of course Dream Theater isn't that good. Good music is obviously about 3 minute pop songs and catchy hooks.
Dream Theater aren't that good. Neither was Beethoven, or Mozart, or Bach. Pfft, 20 minute epics. Who needs that?"
It was a typical prog snob comment. Whether you were joking or not, it put you on my radar as someone to beat the prog snobbery out of.
-
Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.
In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.
-
I used to like DT mostly because of the amazing instrumental skills. My love for wankery faded, but DT never did. Nowadays I'm into them because of their craft in magical songwriting. Even if you don't like wankery, they have written some insanely good Songs.
I still love their epic stuff though, and technical musicianship is an integral part of what makes Dream Theater. They do have some clunky vocal melodies, and that is even apparent on highly regarded works like Awake, SFAM and BC&SL. FII may be an odd record, but here they got everything right in terms of arrangement, melody and production. I've come to adore that record. Bad things are You Not Me, and the lack of album flow. The diversity in style and sound though, it's IMO standing on its own in the DT discog. The song where this all comes together is Lines in the Sand, I think.
Lots of their Rudess era music is focused more on heaviness and technical extravaganzas, but I enjoy that as well. I can perfectly rock out to an obviously clunky song like TDEN.
I don't know if this post made sense or not, cause I typed it on my iphone. Whatever the case, I yesterday found out that I was going to make it to their sunday gig in Holland (Bospop). 8th time or so, and this time feels weird and extra special because of MM. Stoked to see him play, even though I'm definately gonna miss MP's unique stage presence and cool drumwork. Nonetheless, MM is incredible, indeed plays circles around MP, and OTBOA is a very good track! Sounds like going back to their roots while staying with the modern metal sound. I hope the new record will be their best since SDOIT but until that time, I can't wait for DT live next sunday.
Yeah I love DT!
-
Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.
In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.
Yep. I don't go see movies to only see one director or one actor. I don't read books of only one author. Variety is the spice of life, not stagnancy. Just because you are listening to music that isn't on the radio doesn't mean that there is any more variety in the music you like than the music anyone else likes. Getting stuck in the prog box is no better than getting stuck in the Top 40 box.
-
Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.
In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.
Yep. I don't go see movies to only see one director or one actor. I don't read books of only one author. Variety is the spice of life, not stagnancy. Just because you are listening to music that isn't on the radio doesn't mean that there is any more variety in the music you like than the music anyone else likes. Getting stuck in the prog box is no better than getting stuck in the Top 40 box.
Exactly. I had the mindset for awhile of, "Whaa? Music that actually had a hit? I'm too good to listen to nonsense like that." Now I realize how silly that was, and it's helped me expand my tastes and my mind.
For me, personally, wankery and extravagant musicianship does absolutely nothing for me. If there's any music snobbery left inside of me, it's that I demand my music to have more than "Look what I can do and you can't."
-
You are my new best forum friend.
-
You are my new best forum friend.
o/
-
*\o
-
Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.
In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.
Yep. I don't go see movies to only see one director or one actor. I don't read books of only one author. Variety is the spice of life, not stagnancy. Just because you are listening to music that isn't on the radio doesn't mean that there is any more variety in the music you like than the music anyone else likes. Getting stuck in the prog box is no better than getting stuck in the Top 40 box.
Exactly. I had the mindset for awhile of, "Whaa? Music that actually had a hit? I'm too good to listen to nonsense like that." Now I realize how silly that was, and it's helped me expand my tastes and my mind.
For me, personally, wankery and extravagant musicianship does absolutely nothing for me. If there's any music snobbery left inside of me, it's that I demand my music to have more than "Look what I can do and you can't."
Agree 100%
-
Lady Gaga does have a song called "Heavy Metal Lover" on Born This Way. It's not really a metal song, but it's pretty much her love letter to her favourite band, Iron Maiden. I can't really describe the song's sound, it's really unusual.
In 73109's thread in GMD, he asked "what makes a good album?", and I responded that a good album will make me feel something. Some Dream Theater albums have held that feeling I had the first time I heard it. With SC and BC&SL, I felt nothing hearing them. I have no connection to them, and I could never love them on a level past simple respect for their musicianship.
Well, I loved Systematic Chaos. It made me feel plenty.
But as for Black Clouds, yeah, I didn't enjoy it as much as their previous albums. Some say it wasn't inspired. And although I didn't particularly like the verse parts of The Best Of Times, I still thought the piano/violin intro, and the guitar solo were very moving. Along with quite a few other parts of the album. I'm sorry that it didn't make you feel anything.
Also dude, the reason I'm picking on you is because of your quote in that thread:
"Of course Dream Theater isn't that good. Good music is obviously about 3 minute pop songs and catchy hooks.
Dream Theater aren't that good. Neither was Beethoven, or Mozart, or Bach. Pfft, 20 minute epics. Who needs that?"
It was a typical prog snob comment. Whether you were joking or not, it put you on my radar as someone to beat the prog snobbery out of.
Well, I don't consider myself a snob. And I really don't see how talking about Lady Gaga's 'innovative' nature is going to accomplish anything.
Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.
In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.
And this is exactly why I don't consider myself a snob. I explore plenty, snobby would be saying, "Nothing else is worth listening to." I'm always open to listening to new bands, and I explore plenty. I really don't see how my comment gave an otherwise impression.
I simply consider Dream Theater in very, very high regards.
-
Well, you say that you explore plenty of styles of music and are open to listening to new things, but when you look down your nose at 3 minute pop songs with catchy hooks, just because you think it's the cool thing to do, I sort of lose faith in your claims.
And me talking about Lady Gaga's innovative nature is not meant to accomplish anything, so I don't know where you got that from...I just like her music, I find it interesting, and you asked for examples, so I provided.
-
Well, you say that you explore plenty of styles of music and are open to listening to new things, but when you look down your nose at 3 minute pop songs with catchy hooks, just because you think it's the cool thing to do, I sort of lose faith in your claims.
That's not a type of music though. That's a type of song structure, and it's formulaic. And there's nothing wrong with that. But bands that will do 10 minute songs with extended instrumental sections and in some cases, no actual chorus (i.e. Dream Theater) I simply hold higher regards for. And it doesn't have to be DT. Epica has 13 minute epics that sound like they should be soundtracks to movies like 300, and they have their more formulaic 4 minute songs. Well, I'll definitely hold the 13 minute epic in higher regards. Because it goes to more places, it's more of a journey than any given 3 minute chorus, verse, chorus, solo, etc. song.
Don't get me wrong, when I say "pop" songs, I don't mean Pop music. The songs that DT does in that format I consider pop songs too. Hollow Years for example. As much as I like it, I'll still hold Metropolis in higher regards.
And me talking about Lady Gaga's innovative nature is not meant to accomplish anything, so I don't know where you got that from...
Well, you said that you were trying to use your arguments to "beat the snobbery out of me", a statement that I pretty much resent in every way.
-
That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song. Not everyone can write a song that's only 5 minutes long that has hooks, imagination, creativity, and excitement.
-
Well I said that in jest. I have no intention of changing your mind. I'm just arguing because I like the direction this debate is taking us. But, I don't think I ever was trying to use Lady Gaga to prove anything, outside of my own personal tastes.
And that's cool about holding longer songs in higher regard. Most DT fans do. My top 5 DT songs are all Metropolis-length or longer. I agree about the journey they take you on. But your statement about how epic song > shorter song is a bit too much of a blanket statement for me not to comment on. My favourite song of all time is less than 4 minutes, but many other favourite songs of mine are also longer songs.
What I'm trying to get at is that there is just as much merit to a shorter song as there is to a longer song. Yes, longer songs have more room to impress, but there's also more room for the artist to shit the bed at any point. I don't need anything artificially extended if is not serving the song in a positive way.
-
That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song.
That's not true. I've heard plenty of bands who tried writing... Forget 20. 10 minute songs, they couldn't do it. Those songs end up dragging big time. DT's epics are interesting all the way through.
Not everyone can write a song that's only 5 minutes long that has hooks, imagination, creativity, and excitement.
And yet, everyone does. Megadeth still writes interesting songs with that formula. Same with Disturbed. Same with less known bands like Supreme Majesty. They all write 5 minute songs, and they're perfectly good songs. They're catchy, imaginative, the music is certainly exciting. And they're perfectly worth listening to. In fact, to say, "If it's not new or unique or innovative, then it's stale and worth listening to," THAT sounds like snobbery.
What I'm trying to get at is that there is just as much merit to a shorter song as there is to a longer song. Yes, longer songs have more room to impress, but there's also more room for the artist to shit the bed at any point. I don't need anything artificially extended if is not serving the song in a positive way.
I'm not saying they don't hold merit. But 95% of bands out there will follow that format. So if I say 20 minute epics > 3 minute short songs, then it's more a matter of supply and demand. It's easy to find a good 3 - 5 minute song by any band who has even the slightest skill in playing music. Dream Theater is one of the only bands I know (not THE only mind you) who can successfully write a 10+ minute song and make it interesting. There aren't too many bands out there who can do that. That's why I value those songs more.
-
Still find it strange. You are basically now saying that value = great music. I have never heard that before...
-
TheGreatPretender, you are a strange person.
-
That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song.
That's not true. I've heard plenty of bands who tried writing... Forget 20. 10 minute songs, they couldn't do it. Those songs end up dragging big time. DT's epics are interesting all the way through.
I'd be willing to debate that. Personally, I find *gasp* Octavarium, for example, way too long for its own good, and is as guilty of "dragging big time" as much as any other attempt at a long song I can think of. That's not to say that all of the lengthier pieces are simply dragged out for the very sake of length, but I find that one to be so.
The point is that a song's time length is a number. There's no greater inherent value of a 20 minute song than a 2 minute song without the context of how its length works for it.
-
That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song. Not everyone can write a song that's only 5 minutes long that has hooks, imagination, creativity, and excitement.
Alright, here it goes.
Anyone can write a 20-minute song. Not everyone can write a 20 minute song with hooks, imagination, creativity and excitement. (DT certainly can)
Anyone can write a 5-minute song. Not everyone can write a 5 minute song with hooks, imagination, creativity blah blah. Lots of bands and musicians certainly can.
20 minute songs are directed towards one audience, while 5 minute songs are normally directed towards another audience. That's the way music rolls.
-
Dammit, TheGreatPretender! I had plans to progress on L.A Noire tonight. Instead, I've spent the whole evening arguing with you. It's fun and all, but goddammit dude...
-
Still find it strange. You are basically now saying that value = great music. I have never heard that before...
Well, what if all music in history was 20+ minutes long? And that's what we listened to for centuries, and that's what the Beatles, and Elvis, and Deep Purple, and every artist that we've ever known did. 20 minute epics. And then someone started coming out with 5 minute pop songs, and things like that were considered rare? Honestly, yes, I think I'd appreciate them a lot more, if that were the case. As long as the musicians were actually good, of course.
Instead, it's the other way around. And it's not because every band WANTS to be formulaic, I don't think. I would imagine it's because most bands, like I said, can't or don't try to write long epics. Either way, long epics are in short supply. Which says something about a band that can write them successfully. I think that's a major part of what makes DT great.
One part, though, and there are plenty of other reasons, including their overall sound. I like the way Pettrucci plays guitar, and the way Rudess shreds the keyboard and plays piano. And that's a matter of opinion. But I don't think it's deniable that every member of the band is a master of their craft.
Also, it's okay. I also had some video gaming plans tonight that went to waste, hahah.
TheGreatPretender, you are a strange person.
I'm vaguely aware of that.
I'd be willing to debate that. Personally, I find *gasp* Octavarium, for example, way too long for its own good, and is as guilty of "dragging big time" as much as any other attempt at a long song I can think of. That's not to say that all of the lengthier pieces are simply dragged out for the very sake of length, but I find that one to be so.
Well, then it's an exception to the general rule. But even then, many people love Octavarium through and through.
-
I really don't think that's how music should be judged. In a perfect world, one would enjoy music in a mental bubble. Without comparing it to what is common or popular or better or worse. Just judging it on it's own merits.
That obviously can't happen, but I try my best to not say "well there are lots of 4-minutes songs out there, so this one better really work hard to impress me." The first half of that sentence should not influence the opinion. If it does for you, then that's fine. That's how you enjoy it. I just try to remain more refrained from letting outside sources affect my enjoyment of anything.
Anyway, I really do want to do other things with my life right now. So, I'm bouncin'
Good debate, 'twas fun. We'll be back at it again soon enough anyways, I reckon.
-
I really don't think that's how music should be judged. In a perfect world, one would enjoy music in a mental bubble. Without comparing it to what is common or popular or better or worse. Just judging it on it's own merits.
That obviously can't happen, but I try my best to not say "well there are lots of 4-minutes songs out there, so this one better really work hard to impress me." The first half of that sentence should not influence the opinion. If it does for you, then that's fine. That's how you enjoy it. I just try to remain more refrained from letting outside sources affect my enjoyment of anything.
Sounds reasonable... But this whole debate started, in part because there were so many people who were compelled to say that "There are other bands out there who have more variety than Dream Theater, so in comparison, DT is not that diverse."
-
I'm into long lovemaking with peaks and valleys and DT is good for that. Yes Double bass drumming pleases me.
Why are you always WRONG
That's not what my wife said.
-
You can call Ulver new, experimental and interesting all you want, but I'd still rather listen to DT. It's about what sounds good, not about what's "The most innovative".
Doesn’t this kind of invalidate the whole rest of your argument?
You’re basically saying that Ulver may be more diverse than Dream Theater but Dream Theater is still better. If Ulver is more diverse, then by comparison with Ulver, Dream Theater is less diverse. Which means that Dream Theater is not the pinnacle of diversity.
Maybe I’ve missed something, but your whole argument seems to have been that Dream Theater is the pinnacle of diversity.
By the way, I do think DT is diverse, and I've never heard of Ulver. So it's not that I disagree with you, I'm just really confused about what your point is.
-
Doesn’t this kind of invalidate the whole rest of your argument?
You’re basically saying that Ulver may be more diverse than Dream Theater but Dream Theater is still better. If Ulver is more diverse, then by comparison with Ulver, Dream Theater is less diverse. Which means that Dream Theater is not the pinnacle of diversity.
Maybe I’ve missed something, but your whole argument seems to have been that Dream Theater is the pinnacle of diversity.
By the way, I do think DT is diverse, and I've never heard of Ulver. So it's not that I disagree with you, I'm just really confused about what your point is.
Well, I haven't listened to too much Ulver, so I can't say whether it is actually MORE diverse. The thing is, I don't really like their sound, so I'm not GONNA listen to them just to validate an argument, so I just kinda gave that one away.
It's more along the lines of, Dream Theater is the most diverse while still having an enjoyable sound. And that second part is definitely a matter of opinion. But I'm not gonna say that something is better just because it has more diversity, if I don't think the music itself is that good.
-
It's more along the lines of, Dream Theater is the most diverse while still having an enjoyable sound. And that second part is definitely a matter of opinion. But I'm not gonna say that something is better just because it has more diversity, if I don't think the music itself is that good.
Fair enough. But the fact that the second part is based on opinion kinda ruins the first part. To someone who only likes rap, maybe Eminem is 'the most diverse while still having an enjoyable sound.' If you're limiting your scope of diversity to what you like, then you're really discussing what you like, not diversity.
-
Yeah, but everyone's got their own tastes. That can't be helped. I'm not saying I like DT because they are diverse because I like any and all bands who are diverse.
And they're still one of the most diverse bands out there. Relatively speaking, you can give me 50 bands that are more diverse than DT, but there's still 50,000 bands out there who are less diverse.
-
Right. I really don't disagree with you. I just wanted to point out the you've been debating for three pages to defend your stance that you like Dream Theater because they are the most diverse of all the bands that you like. :lol
-
Ulver are about a hundred times more musically diverse and eclectic than Dream Theater, and more talented and revolutionary composers
but their less technically good and only have a few songs over ten minuets so fuck them go DT :metal :metal :metal
-
Ravenheart, you're right when you say anyone can write a 20-minute song. However, very few bands are talented enough to write a 20-minute song that you'll actually remember afterwards; that you will think was an interesting song to listen to and that you'd like to listen to again. I mean, I can write a 20-minute song consisting of a concise song structure but with a 13 minute instrumental section over one chord in the middle without much diversity. That song would probably have been better without the lenghty instrumental section, since no one wants to listen to the same riff or chord for 13 minutes, no matter what's going on over it.
Also, like you, I don't care much for "extravagant musicianship" in the sense of bands who show off their technical skills just because they can. Which is why I love Dream Theater, and most of their recent catalogue. Because saying that their recent music is all about extravagant musicianship is not correct. The reason why is that Dream Theater is not all about technical proficiency, but they actually manage to balance the extravaganza with strong riffs and concise song writing. They do not play extravagantly not only because they can, but mostly because it adds a flavour to their otherwise strong music. In contrast to for example technical death metal and the like. That's mostly just techincal to the point of awfulness, and for show.
-
I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Tool is somehow more than diverse than Dream Theater? I mean, really?
-
Right. I really don't disagree with you. I just wanted to point out the you've been debating for three pages to defend your stance that you like Dream Theater because they are the most diverse of all the bands that you like. :lol
Well, the debate wasn't just about that. My debates tend to kind of grow and develop new topics as they go. That's why my debates are so awesome, you'll find like, 20 hour debates that are very progressive constantly changing into something different. They're much better than those 4 hour debates that dwell on the same thing.
-
I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Tool is somehow more than diverse than Dream Theater? I mean, really?
Well I think so.
I'm very much in a Tool-loving mood these days, and I keep discovering new things in their songs. The DT well has run dry for me as of late, so I will definitely say I love Tool more than DT and I think they are more diverse.
-
Tool
Opeth
Mastodon
[/b]Lady Gaga
The Mars Volta
Shadow Gallery
Pure Reason Revolution
You claimed that even though DT does have a diverse range of songs, they all sound like typical Dream Theater. The same argument can be applied to the bands you listed above. To say they are far more innovative then DT is just extremely silly imo. They are diverse, I agree, but on a level equal to DT.
-
I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Tool is somehow more than diverse than Dream Theater? I mean, really?
Well I think so.
I'm very much in a Tool-loving mood these days, and I keep discovering new things in their songs. The DT well has run dry for me as of late, so I will definitely say I love Tool more than DT and I think they are more diverse.
What if you were in a DT-loving mood these days and still discovering new things in their songs, while the Tool well had run dry? Would you still be saying right now that Tool is more diverse? I doubt it. In other words, I think the fact that you seem to be burned out on DT combined with the big Tool phase you are going is greatly influencing your current opinion. :)
-
Tool
Opeth
Mastodon
[/b]Lady Gaga
The Mars Volta
Shadow Gallery
Pure Reason Revolution
You claimed that even though DT does have a diverse range of songs, they all sound like typical Dream Theater. The same argument can be applied to the bands you listed above. To say they are far more innovative then DT is just extremely silly imo.
This. I mean, Opeth? Really? Shadow Gallery? Mastodon?
-
Yeah that's fine to you guys.
I can't really argue why, I just get a more diverse feel from those bands.
I suppose it might have something to do with liking them more, but even when Dream Theater was among my favourite bands, I never believed they had much variety.
But that's me. I'm not here to argue my tastes. I've done plenty of that.
-
Wow... It's like, if I die tomorrow, I'll be alright because I believe that after I'm gone, the debate will carry on. Hahah.
-
Wow... It's like, if I die tomorrow, I'll be alright because I believe that after I'm gone, the debate will carry on. Hahah.
:lol
-
I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Tool is somehow more than diverse than Dream Theater? I mean, really?
You know, I love Tool. However, their sound isn't as diverse as Dream Theater (and this doesn't always mean a good thing). Tool has a very strong core sound they stray to, and it works wonders for them...but I wouldn't really call them more diverse than Dream Theater.
Just my two cents. Proceed, gentlemen.
-
I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Tool is somehow more than diverse than Dream Theater? I mean, really?
You know, I love Tool. However, their sound isn't as diverse as Dream Theater (and this doesn't always mean a good thing). Tool has a very strong core sound they stray to, and it works wonders for them...but I wouldn't really call them more diverse than Dream Theater.
Just my two cents. Proceed, gentlemen.
:clap:
-
tool are nowhere near as diverse as Dream theater
however there are hundreds of other bands that are
-
I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Tool is somehow more than diverse than Dream Theater? I mean, really?
You know, I love Tool. However, their sound isn't as diverse as Dream Theater (and this doesn't always mean a good thing). Tool has a very strong core sound they stray to, and it works wonders for them...but I wouldn't really call them more diverse than Dream Theater.
And along those lines, if a band isn't diverse, but does one thing extremely well, is that really a bad thing? I think not. A band doesn't have to reinvent the wheel on every album to be good. AC/DC (regardless of how much you might not like them) have had a long and very popular career by doing the same thing over and over and over...
-
Yep I agree.
I just personally find Tool more sonically diverse. Just my two cents.
-
I thought about posting here for a while, but was never motivated to. However, having just explained some of why I like "Home" in the Home Appreciate Thread, I started to realize what I like about bands like Dream Theater (and why I am not that interested in most other prog/metal):
1. Vocals: This is really a deal-breaker for me. I love unique voices, and I'm often hooked on just the vocals for the first dozen listens of a new album. Because it's such an immediate, visceral, personal reaction for me, I can't get past them - meaning bands like Opeth, Rush (and by extension Dream Theater's first album), or any of those heavily-accented european power metal singers don't stand a chance with me. This (and lyrics, below) accounts for some of my very diverse musical tastes.
2. Lyrics: I really respect well-written, clever lyrics by bands who know the power of words. (It's a prerequisite that I need to be able to understand the words, mostly. :) ) This is why I love They Might Be Giants and Electric Light Orchestra, as examples.
3. Music: I am not a musician. I don't play any instrument (though I've been starting and stopping beginner acoustic guitar "lessons" online for years). Having said that, I get bored with bands that seem to have one "schtick" or style. It's why bands like AC/DC, Nickleback or The Eagles just don't do it for me. I don't dislike them (in fact I really like individual tracks), but they will never be favorites. I like songs that I keep going back to and finding different things to listen to, or music that helps expand my horizons. This is one of my favorite things about bands like The Tea Party or The Dear Hunter - creative fearlessness.
4. Emotion & Drama: This to me is Lyrics + Music + a little something more - a sensibility that bands like Dream Theater, Queensryche and Pink Floyd usually seem to possess. I don't know if there is a more technical term for what I'm talking about, but it's that little bit of magic that turns a good song great. Again, as this is so personal, I'm sure everyone's definitions differ. As an example, it's why Shadow Gallery will never mean as much to me as Dream Theater, or why Incubus will never be as special as Faith No More. Cold, clinical music will never hold my attention.
5. The Extras: Finally, I love learning about the band as people. I love storytelling. I love concept albums. I love album art. I love all the little things peripheral to the music itself, and most of my favorite artists do something that resonates with me in a way that set them apart from the pack.
-
:metal :laugh: :metal :laugh:
for me DT is just what i was always looking for(almost 40 years).
its komplex, but still heavy, very melodic but not cheesy.
The drums, bass guitar keys all perfect.
Very special for me the voice of JLB.
I read a lot of bad comments of DT fans about JLB,
i think he had problems with his voice for some time(especially live) but since live at budokan he is also live unbelievable.
i was in rome this monday(4th of juli), it was the best JLB i ever heard, it felt that he is almost relieved that MP is gone.
I was always a Portnoy fan but i always disliked his constant negativity about JLB.
I'm very excited to hear the new album.
-
Yep I agree.
I just personally find Tool more sonically diverse. Just my two cents.
Tool aren't diverse in the slightest! Have they written a song that isn't in D Minor yet?