Taylor Swift

[Stadler]

It's funny; then when The White Album came out, and they did sort of go back to the "beginning", it was all "these guys are a mess!  Where's Strawberry Fields?!?"   

I think the lesson is, people like what they like.

[Zantera]

Considering how heavily she relies on co-songwriters I think a lot of the criticisms towards her becoming boring or uninspiring might sound like huge hits on her, but realistically it might just be time to change things up with who she works with. I personally think Antonoff is boring beyond belief and I'd struggle to enjoy his work even if it was with a band or artist that I already love. The Dessner connection seemed to really work for her with Folklore and Evermore but funny enough for me as a fan of The National, I feel like they have been on their own decline for a few years now so it's not particularly exciting either.

I'm obviously coming from a different perspective since I'm not really a fan but I've felt some of her previous work that I have stumbled upon felt more colorful, vibrant and even if I didn't love it, I could see why someone would. This new album to me sounds like very inoffensive dull background music you would hear at a clothing store. Something that kinda fills the void by adding some music but nothing that makes you turn your head and pay more attention. But again, at this point I don't know how much of my criticism should be aimed towards her or if she takes the backseat and lets Antonoff drive the wheel. Maybe making an album with someone else would be at least remotely interesting. 

[Stadler]

I can't stand Jack Antonoff, so if she moved on from him, fine with me.

[nobloodyname]

Every Taylor Swift song....


https://www.facebook.com/reel/952759922923008

Oh, that's good

[nobloodyname]

Considering how heavily she relies on co-songwriters I think a lot of the criticisms towards her becoming boring or uninspiring might sound like huge hits on her, but realistically it might just be time to change things up with who she works with. I personally think Antonoff is boring beyond belief and I'd struggle to enjoy his work even if it was with a band or artist that I already love. The Dessner connection seemed to really work for her with Folklore and Evermore but funny enough for me as a fan of The National, I feel like they have been on their own decline for a few years now so it's not particularly exciting either.

A thousand million times 'yes' on this! Folklore was enough and now we have four or five (depending on your perspective) albums of it.

Again, I'm not saying the music is 'bad', I really don't think it is, but I can't even tell where one song ends and another begins at this point. Even The Astonishing sounds more varied.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

yeah, Jack Antonoff clearly has enough dud albums under his production belt (thinking the Lorde album, that really bad LDR album Blue Banisters, and the more recent TS albums since Folklore/Evermore) that it's clear that anytime he is on something that IS good (like Folklore, or NFR!, etc.) it's because of the other people involved and not him. Him and his Bruce Springsteen ripoff band Bleachers suck so bad lol, and his production chops are overblown

[KevShmev]

I can't stand Jack Antonoff, so if she moved on from him, fine with me.

Care to unpack that? I am genuinely curious.

Personally, any favorable opinions I have of him can be 99.999% attributed to his producing work with Taylor and Lana.  He was in that band Fun, who had that fun little song Some Nights, which I like.  I think I've heard a handful of Bleachers song now, one of which I thought was pretty good (the one where his wife dances the whole video); the others all seemed pretty bland. 

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

If you want a really great example of Jack Antonoff ruining an album, check out Lorde's most recent album, Solar Power. Her first two records are nearly perfect and then that one.....yikes

[Zook]

I guess if there's one positive thing I can say about this album it's that I haven't heard anything cringworthy yet. I'm not even sure I've heard the whole thing though. I've never been the biggest fan of acoustic songs (ironically the only Nirvana song I like is an acoustic cover song) but if written more upbeat, they can be really great. If Thank you aiMe had different drums I'd definitely like it more. As is it just sounds like the rest of them. Definitely better than Lana Del Rey, but still so boring. I suppose she'll never go back to the fun pure pop of 1989, but I wish she'd write catchy tunes again. Blue balls, and "what was that?" and "oh my god this is awful!" and "where's the hook?" and "why is this a song?" are all it is for me with Taylor Swift anymore.

Weather Systems and Distant Satellites are how you write this type of music. I don't mind slower music. Not everything has to be upbeat or fast or balls and chunk for me. I think Taylor Swift has lost the plot and really needs to take a break and regroup. Take a few years off, and really let the creative juices build up. She writes so many damn songs that they all sound the same, and of course my opinion is subjective and a minority one, but that's how I feel.

If we're all still here in 2 years, I'll let you all know how much my wife is torturing me with the newest Taylor Swift album.  Or maybe she'll actually do something different for a change. Both my wife in listening to something else and Taylor for writing music I actually enjoy.

[soupytwist]

yeah, Jack Antonoff clearly has enough dud albums under his production belt (thinking the Lorde album, that really bad LDR album Blue Banisters, and the more recent TS albums since Folklore/Evermore) that it's clear that anytime he is on something that IS good (like Folklore, or NFR!, etc.) it's because of the other people involved and not him. Him and his Bruce Springsteen ripoff band Bleachers suck so bad lol, and his production chops are overblown

Blue Banisters is her only album since Lust for Life that has nothing to do with Jack.  No production or songwriting credits at all, mainly because most of the songs on that album were written ages ago.

[nobloodyname]

Blue balls, and "what was that?" and "oh my god this is awful!" and "where's the hook?" and "why is this a song?" are all it is for me with Taylor Swift anymore.

I've spent quite a bit of time (well, at least 20 seconds) pondering this point myself. You could say it about any song, of course; it just seems particularly relevant here.

[KevShmev]

Like Stadler said, we all like what we like, but the whole "every song sounds the same" criticism is always such a lazy one to me, with regards to most artists, not just Swift.  I have seen it said about Dream Theater as well (OMG, almost every song has excessive noodling, it all sounds the same!!).  Unless your AC/DC and maybe Foo Fighers to a lesser extent, I cannot think of a popular artist where that criticism/observation, generally speaking, really applies.  I guess maybe if you have only listen to TTPD once or in passing, it would be easy to think that, as I myself felt like parts of the album were a blur to me at first, but I cannot imagine getting used to the album and thinking that songs like Down Bad, The Manuscript, I Can Do it with a Broken Heart, So High School and The Prophecy all sound the same.  To each their own, however. 

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, gotta love TayTay:

"And maybe you've reframed it
And in your mind, you never beat my spirit black and blue
I don't think you've changed much
And so I changed your name and any real defining clues"

.....in a song whose title was deliberately and specifically altered in its capitalization to spell out the name of the person the song is addressed to 

[KevShmev]

Allegedly.

The best is the next part:

"And one day, your kid comes home singing
A song that only us two is gonna know is about you..."

That is hilarious since North West (the daughter of KK and KW) is apparently a huge fan of Taylor's music and is always singing her songs around the house.

[Stadler]

I guess if there's one positive thing I can say about this album it's that I haven't heard anything cringworthy yet. I'm not even sure I've heard the whole thing though. I've never been the biggest fan of acoustic songs (ironically the only Nirvana song I like is an acoustic cover song) but if written more upbeat, they can be really great. If Thank you aiMe had different drums I'd definitely like it more. As is it just sounds like the rest of them. Definitely better than Lana Del Rey, but still so boring. I suppose she'll never go back to the fun pure pop of 1989, but I wish she'd write catchy tunes again. Blue balls, and "what was that?" and "oh my god this is awful!" and "where's the hook?" and "why is this a song?" are all it is for me with Taylor Swift anymore.

Weather Systems and Distant Satellites are how you write this type of music. I don't mind slower music. Not everything has to be upbeat or fast or balls and chunk for me. I think Taylor Swift has lost the plot and really needs to take a break and regroup. Take a few years off, and really let the creative juices build up. She writes so many damn songs that they all sound the same, and of course my opinion is subjective and a minority one, but that's how I feel.

If we're all still here in 2 years, I'll let you all know how much my wife is torturing me with the newest Taylor Swift album.  Or maybe she'll actually do something different for a change. Both my wife in listening to something else and Taylor for writing music I actually enjoy.

I don't know; I respect your opinion and you like what you like, for sure.  You owe no one any apologies for that.

But that line in the bold is sort of the one that sticks with me. I don't THINK you meant it this way, but it READS as if she's doing this for you (or for any fan).  And I don't get that sense at all.  I think, in the way the greatest artists (like Bruce, Dylan, and Neil Young) do, she's not doing this for you.  She's doing this for HER.  If she zigs for one, two or three albums before she feels the urge to zag again, so be it.  I mentioned Neil, this overall conversation sounds so much like the "Wow, except for Harvest, Neil Young blows" argument.   40 years later, now that we know what the impetus was, "Tonight's The Night" is still a harrowing, desolate listen, but it has CONTEXT and it's art in it's truest form. 

I think Kevin said it already, but the reality is, this is only the second or so record that sounds like this.  Radiohead has made the same  (IMO) shitty (IMO) record since 2000.  (The point being, I'm not immersed in Radiohead, I'm not invested in them, and I don't care for what little I hear, so for me it's "all the same").

[Stadler]

Like Stadler said, we all like what we like, but the whole "every song sounds the same" criticism is always such a lazy one to me, with regards to most artists, not just Swift.  I have seen it said about Dream Theater as well (OMG, almost every song has excessive noodling, it all sounds the same!!).  Unless your AC/DC and maybe Foo Fighers to a lesser extent, I cannot think of a popular artist where that criticism/observation, generally speaking, really applies.  I guess maybe if you have only listen to TTPD once or in passing, it would be easy to think that, as I myself felt like parts of the album were a blur to me at first, but I cannot imagine getting used to the album and thinking that songs like Down Bad, The Manuscript, I Can Do it with a Broken Heart, So High School and The Prophecy all sound the same.  To each their own, however. 

And while I don't care for Foo Fighters, the funny thing is, AC/DC HASN'T made the same album over and over again.  You play me a snippet of a song and I can absolutely tell you what album it came off, at least up to "The Razor's Edge".   For those in the know, "For Those About To Rock" sounds absolutely NOTHING like "High Voltage". NOTHING, and I'm not talking at all about the vocals.

[Zantera]

How do you guys feel about the comments made by Neil Tennant (Pet Shop Boys) this week about Taylor Swift lacking hits, and he basically said "what's her Billie Jean?".

I actually think it's quite interesting because I do agree that despite her massive popularity, for me as a non fan there doesn't seem to be that big hit song in her discography. The one song that sort of stands out to me is Shake it Off which, I don't particularly like but it's definitely catchy. But I know that's like a 10 year old song and it feels like when she made that song she was not even 1/5th of the artist she is today popularity wise. But I don't feel like there's been any real huge hit songs that I've been bombarded by in commercials or on the radio or whatever else. Possibly there's a culture gap since I live across the atlantic and I'm sure it might be different in the US. But she still seems wildly popular here.

But to clarify I don't necessarily consider this a weakness either. There's plenty of other big artists or bands like Radiohead where there's a lack of big hit songs but the fans are more passionate about the discography and the albums as a whole. There's also bands and artists who are worse than Taylor Swift who just happened to write 1 very catchy song that became a huge hit song and even though the rest of the discography is a big snooze, people still go to them for that 1 song.

[Zook]

I don't know; I respect your opinion and you like what you like, for sure.  You owe no one any apologies for that.

But that line in the bold is sort of the one that sticks with me. I don't THINK you meant it this way, but it READS as if she's doing this for you (or for any fan).  And I don't get that sense at all.  I think, in the way the greatest artists (like Bruce, Dylan, and Neil Young) do, she's not doing this for you.  She's doing this for HER.  If she zigs for one, two or three albums before she feels the urge to zag again, so be it.  I mentioned Neil, this overall conversation sounds so much like the "Wow, except for Harvest, Neil Young blows" argument.   40 years later, now that we know what the impetus was, "Tonight's The Night" is still a harrowing, desolate listen, but it has CONTEXT and it's art in it's truest form. 

I think Kevin said it already, but the reality is, this is only the second or so record that sounds like this.  Radiohead has made the same  (IMO) shitty (IMO) record since 2000.  (The point being, I'm not immersed in Radiohead, I'm not invested in them, and I don't care for what little I hear, so for me it's "all the same").

Well, I keep asking her to make me a metal album, but every time she responds with "who is this?" so I finally stopped asking. Also she threatened to file a restraining order.

[HOF]

How do you guys feel about the comments made by Neil Tennant (Pet Shop Boys) this week about Taylor Swift lacking hits, and he basically said "what's her Billie Jean?".

I actually think it's quite interesting because I do agree that despite her massive popularity, for me as a non fan there doesn't seem to be that big hit song in her discography. The one song that sort of stands out to me is Shake it Off which, I don't particularly like but it's definitely catchy. But I know that's like a 10 year old song and it feels like when she made that song she was not even 1/5th of the artist she is today popularity wise. But I don't feel like there's been any real huge hit songs that I've been bombarded by in commercials or on the radio or whatever else. Possibly there's a culture gap since I live across the atlantic and I'm sure it might be different in the US. But she still seems wildly popular here.

But to clarify I don't necessarily consider this a weakness either. There's plenty of other big artists or bands like Radiohead where there's a lack of big hit songs but the fans are more passionate about the discography and the albums as a whole. There's also bands and artists who are worse than Taylor Swift who just happened to write 1 very catchy song that became a huge hit song and even though the rest of the discography is a big snooze, people still go to them for that 1 song.

Might be Cruel Summer, which is an excellent pop tune and has been everywhere for the last year.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Might be Cruel Summer, which is an excellent pop tune and has been everywhere for the last year.

Interestingly enough that song was written with St. Vincent. We love Annie Clark!

[hefdaddy42]

How do you guys feel about the comments made by Neil Tennant (Pet Shop Boys) this week about Taylor Swift lacking hits, and he basically said "what's her Billie Jean?".

What is ANYBODY'S Billie Jean?  That is rarified air.

She's had plenty of hits, but who are the fucking Pet Shop Boys to judge her on that metric?  That seems really weird to me.  I can only name one from them, and that was certainly no Billie Jean.

[HOF]

All of these are probably good candidates:

“Cruel Summer” is one of three tracks from Swift that have spent exactly 50 weeks on the Hot 100. At present, it’s on the same level as both “You Belong With Me” and “Shake It Off,” which managed the same impressive showing.

Only one tune by Swift has held on for longer than 50 weeks. “Anti-Hero” racked up 53 stays somewhere on the Hot 100 before finally slipping away. It remains the singer’s only title to live on the ranking for a full year–at least for now.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2024/04/25/taylor-swifts-cruel-summer-reaches-another-major-milestone/?sh=33de06695054

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

What is ANYBODY'S Billie Jean?  That is rarified air.

She's had plenty of hits, but who are the fucking Pet Shop Boys to judge her on that metric?  That seems really weird to me.  I can only name one from them, and that was certainly no Billie Jean.

West End Girls or Always On My Mind?

[KevShmev]

Even though it was on an album from five years ago, Cruel Summer wasn't a huge smash until the last year when it was released as a single and became one of her biggest hits ever, so that one needs more time to see if it holds up as one of her mainstream giants.  Same with Anti-Hero.  I think both have a good chance, but you never know.  Consider that none of her hits from Speak Now have really held up with the masses, which is probably why none of those hits have been part of the every night Eras tour set list (Enchanted and Long Live, the two, are both deep cuts).

And yeah, I like Pet Shop Boys a lot, but Neil is not the guy to be asking that.  What Have I Done to Deserve This? (GREAT song) should be their song everybody remembers, but I suspect West End Girls is that song for anyone who does remember them at all here in America (I know they are much bigger still over in the UK).

[MirrorMask]

How do you guys feel about the comments made by Neil Tennant (Pet Shop Boys) this week about Taylor Swift lacking hits, and he basically said "what's her Billie Jean?".

I actually think it's quite interesting because I do agree that despite her massive popularity, for me as a non fan there doesn't seem to be that big hit song in her discography.

Well, before I discovered (thanks to this very thread) Folklore, I didn't know a single song from Taylor. I barely acknowledged the fact that there was out there a singer named Taylor Swift. But I couldn't name a single song from her.

Lady Gaga, on the other hand? I knew damn well Paparazzi and Bad Romance.

But I don't think asking a metalhead what are the most famous songs of pop artist is much telling in that regard.

I remember once doing the reverse game to a coworker who isn't a metalhead; I asked him to name a Led Zeppelin song and he said Stairway to Heaven, I asked him a Deep Purple song title and he couldn't name Smoke on the Water but he hummed the riff melody, I asked him a Black Sabbath song and he blanked.

[Zantera]

Feels like there's been a lot of "X person said this about Taylor Swift" recently which I guess makes sense given her popularity and clickbait titles generating views for different websites. But it is curious how these people are asked about her in the first place and I would also imagine some of these comments sound very different in context compared to as a headline.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Well, before I discovered (thanks to this very thread) Folklore, I didn't know a single song from Taylor. I barely acknowledged the fact that there was out there a singer named Taylor Swift. But I couldn't name a single song from her.

Lady Gaga, on the other hand? I knew damn well Paparazzi and Bad Romance.

But I don't think asking a metalhead what are the most famous songs of pop artist is much telling in that regard.

I remember once doing the reverse game to a coworker who isn't a metalhead; I asked him to name a Led Zeppelin song and he said Stairway to Heaven, I asked him a Deep Purple song title and he couldn't name Smoke on the Water but he hummed the riff melody, I asked him a Black Sabbath song and he blanked.

"Oh, yeah? Name a Black Sabbath song."

(doesn't know Black Sabbath) "Black Sabbath?"

"Blast, foiled again"

[HOF]

Even though it was on an album from five years ago, Cruel Summer wasn't a huge smash until the last year when it was released as a single and became one of her biggest hits ever, so that one needs more time to see if it holds up as one of her mainstream giants.  Same with Anti-Hero.  I think both have a good chance, but you never know.  Consider that none of her hits from Speak Now have really held up with the masses, which is probably why none of those hits have been part of the every night Eras tour set list (Enchanted and Long Live, the two, are both deep cuts).

And yeah, I like Pet Shop Boys a lot, but Neil is not the guy to be asking that.  What Have I Done to Deserve This? (GREAT song) should be their song everybody remembers, but I suspect West End Girls is that song for anyone who does remember them at all here in America (I know they are much bigger still over in the UK).

This is one reason I think Cruel Summer will have staying power. It was already a fan favorite before it became a radio hit. And I do think it is one of her best songs probably.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

I would hope any of her "signature" songs would be ones she actually wrote.

For my money, I'd say it should be "All Too Well" or one of the better tunes off 1989 ("Blank Space"?). Doesn't have to be the 10 min ATW, the regular one is good too

[KevShmev]

She has written all of her songs, whether as solo writes or with a co-writer. 

All Too Well will likely remain more of a cult favorite (by her standards).  The 10MV (which is very good, albeit a bit wordy) is too long to ever be a regular on radio, and the re-recorded version of the original was largely a miss.  The original 5 1/2 minute version, which still remains the best version IMO, likely will be forgotten by everyone but the most diehards fans due to so many not streaming the original versions of the first six albums anymore.  I suspect she wants the 10MV to become the definitive version at this point, anyway.

[HOF]

I would hope any of her "signature" songs would be ones she actually wrote.

For my money, I'd say it should be "All Too Well" or one of the better tunes off 1989 ("Blank Space"?). Doesn't have to be the 10 min ATW, the regular one is good too

All Too Well is one that I really just don't like!

[Stadler]

Well, I keep asking her to make me a metal album, but every time she responds with "who is this?" so I finally stopped asking. Also she threatened to file a restraining order.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Stadler]

How do you guys feel about the comments made by Neil Tennant (Pet Shop Boys) this week about Taylor Swift lacking hits, and he basically said "what's her Billie Jean?".

Well, that's dumb, because Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean" is "Thriller". 

Taylor's is "Love Story", even if "Shake It Off" and "Blank Space" sold more.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Well, that's dumb, because Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean" is "Thriller". 

Taylor's is "Love Story", even if "Shake It Off" and "Blank Space" sold more.

Stads is right. It's gotta be "Love Story".

Also agree about MJ's song being Thriller lol

[HOF]

Thriller was more of a video hit than a song hit, right? I don't know that I ever really heard that song on the radio, and it's not that great of a song anyway. Beat It would also be more iconic I think.