Mike Portnoy's "Prog Metal" supergroup: Sons of Apollo

[Stadler]

I am guessing, and I guess I am a troll for thinking this, is that he didn't quit so much as did a failed bluff.

I don't think you are a troll at all for having that take.  From everything I have read and heard from both sides (and the key details between both "sides" are pretty consistent), I think it's a bit of both.  Literally, he did "quit" the band.  But to just say that he "quit" is too simplistic and in and of itself paints an inaccurate picture.  He had a position that he felt VERY strongly about--so strongly that, although he revised his position and compromised significantly, he rightly or wrongly felt that it wasn't healthy for him to bend past a certain point.  Maybe that was because he truly had his AND the band's best interests at heart.  Maybe it was because, at minimum, he wanted to do some more work with A7X in the mean time.  Maybe both.  I have no idea and don't want to make assumptions.  At the end of the day, none of us knows his motives and shouldn't try to pretend like we do.  But no matter what his motives, that is how he felt.  The band felt otherwise.  Maybe they were right; maybe not.  But each "side" wanted to go a direction that was inconsistent with the other side, so they were at an impasse.  They were going to move on and go into the studio, and weren't going to "fire" him.  He felt he couldn't go in that direction, so the only thing he could do was "quit."  So, yeah, he "quit."  But at the same time, it's more nuanced than that.

And regardless of where it falls, with "nuance" comes human emotion.  I never in a million years would have guessed that my ex-wife would lie to me and cheat on me, but she did.  And while that's on her, much of the context and scenario for her to do so is on me and is at least partly my responsibility, but that doesn't make it hurt any less. 

Sons of Apollo:   we're already talking tour in 2018; what size venues do you think this means?   The Neal Morse Band is playing Friday (tomorrow) at the same place I saw The Winery Dogs last year (500 seats).  They're playing the Keswick Saturday, which is about three times that, about 1,300.   DT played the Oakdale on The Astonishing tour (4,800), a place DT played at least nine times (and the last four times they were in CT). 

Where do you think I'll be able to see SoA?   

[bill1971]

I am guessing, and I guess I am a troll for thinking this, is that he didn't quit so much as did a failed bluff.

I don't think you are a troll at all for having that take.  From everything I have read and heard from both sides (and the key details between both "sides" are pretty consistent), I think it's a bit of both.  Literally, he did "quit" the band.  But to just say that he "quit" is too simplistic and in and of itself paints an inaccurate picture.  He had a position that he felt VERY strongly about--so strongly that, although he revised his position and compromised significantly, he rightly or wrongly felt that it wasn't healthy for him to bend past a certain point.  Maybe that was because he truly had his AND the band's best interests at heart.  Maybe it was because, at minimum, he wanted to do some more work with A7X in the mean time.  Maybe both.  I have no idea and don't want to make assumptions.  At the end of the day, none of us knows his motives and shouldn't try to pretend like we do.  But no matter what his motives, that is how he felt.  The band felt otherwise.  Maybe they were right; maybe not.  But each "side" wanted to go a direction that was inconsistent with the other side, so they were at an impasse.  They were going to move on and go into the studio, and weren't going to "fire" him.  He felt he couldn't go in that direction, so the only thing he could do was "quit."  So, yeah, he "quit."  But at the same time, it's more nuanced than that.

And regardless of where it falls, with "nuance" comes human emotion.  I never in a million years would have guessed that my ex-wife would lie to me and cheat on me, but she did.  And while that's on her, much of the context and scenario for her to do so is on me and is at least partly my responsibility, but that doesn't make it hurt any less. 

Sons of Apollo:   we're already talking tour in 2018; what size venues do you think this means?   The Neal Morse Band is playing Friday (tomorrow) at the same place I saw The Winery Dogs last year (500 seats).  They're playing the Keswick Saturday, which is about three times that, about 1,300.   DT played the Oakdale on The Astonishing tour (4,800), a place DT played at least nine times (and the last four times they were in CT). 

Where do you think I'll be able to see SoA?

Ok, to go off the topic that is already off topic, Stadler, I am really sorry to hear that.

Sons of Apollo: Probably the same types of Venues as Winery Dogs and Neal Morse. Although Neal Morse has been around for a while, going back to Spock's Beard so he may have a larger following than this band.

[cramx3]

Where do you think I'll be able to see SoA?

In NYC, my guess is the same or similar to where MP's Shattered Fortress is playing, Irving Plaza  (1k capacity) or maybe where Neal Morse Band is playing, Gramercy Theater (500 capacity).

To compare, DT would play Hammerstein Ballroom (2.2k) and Beacon Theater (2.8k) or RCMH (6k) in NYC.

[Adami]

I got super lost in the pages long discussion of MP's post.

Are there tour dates announced or are we just prepping for the eventual ones?

[Samsara]

Where do you think I'll be able to see SoA?

In NYC, my guess is the same or similar to where MP's Shattered Fortress is playing, Irving Plaza  (1k capacity) or maybe where Neal Morse Band is playing, Gramercy Theater (500 capacity).

To compare, DT would play Hammerstein Ballroom (2.2k) and Beacon Theater (2.8k) or RCMH (6k) in NYC.

Pretty much spot-on in my opinion. They won't be in large venues to start. And I would guess in other areas (such as San Fran) the capacities will be 250-400. They may move as time goes on. I actually think that's awesome, because to see all of these guys, who have played (and still do play) for thousands, to be one of like 200 people in a room, and up close, that's pretty bad ass (unless Portnoy still spits...in that case, maybe a few rows back is better - lololol)

[mikeyd23]

Are there tour dates announced or are we just prepping for the eventual ones?

No dates yet, just speculation about where they might play.

[Adami]

Are there tour dates announced or are we just prepping for the eventual ones?

No dates yet, just speculation about where they might play.

Oh gotcha. If they come to LA (which I'm sure they will) before I move, I will definitely be there to see them.

[bosk1]

I'll deal with this first, even though it is out of order:

EDIT: I didn't read Bosk's last post to "take it back on topic" before I posted this. Sorry. 

No, that was in reference more to the Thiago issue.  I mean, this discussion is off on a bit of a tangent.  But it started with the MP comment, which arose from the questions related to Sons of Appollo.  So while I think we need to eventually get back to Sons of Appollo more directly, this was tangentially relevant, and I think there is still a bit of "unfinished business" on this subtopic, so it's fine.

One, the "I believe what I wrote" was directly about my comments re: the modding here.   Nothing more.

Oh, okay.  That wasn't clear to me.

"Mike's blind followers"...

It most certainly included me, if not aimed at me.   I'm the only one who stuck up for him during the last go-round - a couple weeks ago - and was called the same then.  On MP's forum, someone named "Xanadu373", who clearly posts here as well, said - and this is a direct quote - "What all this boils down to is that you have a lot of fans there [DTF] (however not blind minions (with the exception of Stadler)),...". 

...

So, given that Chinese menu (haha, I kid), what do I do when I KNOW I was part of the group that the comments were addressed to, and I don't believe a) I'm part of it, or b) that the assessment is entirely fair?   Your analysis is meaningful, but not complete.   

Okay, a couple of things:

First off, you aren't the only one to have defended Mike in the discussions on this forum.  Not remotely.  Some of the defense has come across as reasonable.  Some of it has not and, IMO, does come across as simply "blind" fanboyism.  And that isn't because they were standing up for Mike.  Standing up for Mike, when warranted, is just as valid as standing up for anything else one believes in, when warranted.  It's just that, as happens with a lot of issues on a forum, sometimes, people just take positions that come across as ill-informed.  Again, this is NOT necessarily aimed at you.  I am saying that there are OTHERS who have come across that way.

Second, I wasn't aware that someone specifically called you out on MP's forum with that same comment.  I still don't think that, if you look at the context in which the comments were made HERE, that those specific comments applied to you at all.  But given the other comments, I can see why it struck a nerve with you.  I get it.  But still, you are overreacting and personalizing it too much, IMO.  It was such a minor comment made in passing.  Nobody has followed up or doubled down on it and said, "No, Stadler, YOU are a mindless MP fan!"  Just let it go.

[Anguyen92]

Are there tour dates announced or are we just prepping for the eventual ones?

No dates yet, just speculation about where they might play.

Oh gotcha. If they come to LA (which I'm sure they will) before I move, I will definitely be there to see them.

I think if they will play in LA, they will probably play in Roxy Theater or Whisky a-go-go as a start compared that to DT where they are currently playing in Wiltern Theater (about 1,600 people) or the City National Grove of Anaheim (similar size in capacity) if they play in Anaheim.

[Sycsa]

Come to think of it, is there any other band forum which is as diverse, well-organized and has as much activity as DTF? It's a genuine question, I'm really not familiar with other forums. With the GMD, GD, TV&Movies, P/R, I'm really impressed with DTF.

MP's forum one the other hand - I registered there a couple of years ago with the intention to contribute and participate, but my very first post, which was completely benign (someone said that no MP discussion was allowed on DTF at all, and that they should be thankful that Mike allows a single DT thread on his forum, so I linked to 3 threads from here which focused on MP) immediately got the moderator ax. Dry facts are deemed unacceptable at that place. I never looked back since. My only disappointing experience with DTF was when Rumbo said something about evolution in a science thread (something about roe and pregnant women), which offended a deeply religious member, and Rumbo's original post got subsequently removed.

Edit: oh, and also, banning chaossystem WAS a big MISTAKE as WELL.

[KevShmev]

Come to think of it, is there any other band forum which is as diverse, well-organized and has as much activity as DTF? It's a genuine question, I'm really not familiar with other forums. With the GMD, GD, TV&Movies, P/R, I'm really impressed with DTF.

I have yet to see one. 

Like was said earlier, Portnoy won't find another music forum that talks this much about Sons of Apollo. I browse at another music forum now (huge forum, but not band-specific) and there has been zero chatter about this band.  This forum is basically a huge advertisement for Sons of Apollo (or ANY project he does).

[cramx3]

Come to think of it, is there any other band forum which is as diverse, well-organized and has as much activity as DTF? It's a genuine question, I'm really not familiar with other forums. With the GMD, GD, TV&Movies, P/R, I'm really impressed with DTF.

I have yet to see one. 

Like was said earlier, Portnoy won't find another music forum that talks this much about Sons of Apollo. I browse at another music forum now (huge forum, but not band-specific) and there has been zero chatter about this band.  This forum is basically a huge advertisement for Sons of Apollo (or ANY project he does).

Bingo on both accounts.  DTF is a great place and very diverse.  Most certainly not a "bubble" and that's why this is an amazing place on the internet.  The mods do a great job here of letting free speech happen while maintaining respect for all bands (and other members), including SoA (and MP) who have most certainly gained a lot of attention (mostly positive) here.

[King Postwhore]

Kev nailing it on the head again.  Kev, Mike is going on with the NMB in a few.  Want me to talk to him?

[bill1971]

Kev nailing it on the head again.  Kev, Mike is going on with the NMB in a few.  Want me to talk to him?

have him sign something but wear a DTF T shirt

[bosk1]

Kev nailing it on the head again.  Kev, Mike is going on with the NMB in a few.  Want me to talk to him?

Just shout "DTF RULES!" during a quiet moment of the show. 

[King Postwhore]

 

He'd kill me with a drum stick!

[ytserush]

Come to think of it, is there any other band forum which is as diverse, well-organized and has as much activity as DTF? It's a genuine question, I'm really not familiar with other forums. With the GMD, GD, TV&Movies, P/R, I'm really impressed with DTF.

I have yet to see one. 

Like was said earlier, Portnoy won't find another music forum that talks this much about Sons of Apollo. I browse at another music forum now (huge forum, but not band-specific) and there has been zero chatter about this band.  This forum is basically a huge advertisement for Sons of Apollo (or ANY project he does).

You're over at Hoffman?

[TAC]

He'd kill me with a drum stick!

Take one for the team!

[ytserush]

He'd kill me with a drum stick!

Bring your glove.

[DragonAttack]

I am still trying to figure out what someone's cheating wife has to do with Mike Portnoy and his slamming me just because I'm on DTF because his forum basically dried up

I will see Dream Theater this November in Baltimore.  I would see The Shattered Fortress in NYC, but my stepdaughter and son-in-law are moving back to Maryland that same weekend (after being in Toronto and New Mexico).

Portnoy made DT concerts enjoyable for us.  His stick skills blew us away.  But when I've seen DT since his departure, the band looks so much more relaxed, and MM is quite the nice dude (somewhat talented as well).

I have a pic or two of me and the wife with Jeff Scott Soto from years ago at a Queen convention. 

So, please, Michael P., relax, eh?

[IDontNotDoThings]

IDontNotDoThings, you nailed it 100%.  Stadler, as someone who more often than not (not always, but more often than not) backs you in P/R for your reasoning, you have not displayed that same reasoning and objectivity in this thread.  You are completely off base on this.  Criticism of Mike's specific statement and/or actions (or anyone else's, for that matter), whether well-taken or not, are allowed as long as they do not become personal shots at his character.  Those that cross the line are called out by the mod/admin team and promptly dealt with.  But constructive criticism is and has always been allowed, provided it is constructive and tactful.  Not everyone has the same ability frame things in a way that comes across as constructive or tactful, so there will always be borderline posts on a LOT of different topics here that may come across as a bit more harsh than what someone subjectively believes should be posted.  But that is VERY hard to regulate, and I typically err on the side of letting people talk and hash it out rather than me stepping in every time I think something toes the line.  I say all that to say that, yeah, the site isn't perfect.  But it is a far, FAR cry from being the bash-fest that you are implying it is.  It isn't and never has been anything close to that.  You really aren't being objective here.

I don't see even one - not ONE - reference to a position that isn't completely negative against Mike that isn't labeled something prejudicial like "Mike's blind followers".   Why was that necessary?  Where is even ONE POST that says something like "well, I can see both sides of this, but..." or "wow, I understand Mike might have hard emotions about this site, but...".

   I stuck up for him on the last go round and it was BRUTAL.   

The last go round was brutal. And it seems to be getting worse. I think as time goes by, people are less connected to MP. I know I am. Sons Of Apollo is the first thing I'm actually interested in, and it's been what, 7 years now?

But a lot of us here have been around for a long time and are not only big DT fans, but we're also big MP fans. He's a great musician, and as a fan, he was really a treat to follow while in DT with all the extras, etc...

I've always said that DT was my favorite band for many reasons, but Reason #1 was MP. Watching him perform, and the way he took care of the fans. That's why when he left it was such a blow. I was going to lose that.

I think a lot of people have moved past "disappointed" with his social media posts to "annoyed" with them as time and the connections drift away.

But I've also said that there's a fine line between criticism and being outright rude. I can't say there's aren't posts that are on the wrong side of it.

But MP insulting DTF is shooting himself in the foot. I've probably spent well over $1000 on DT between 1992 and 2010. I've been on DTF since 2004, and even joined the old board when SFAM came out.

I'm DTF and I'm insulted.

Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż

[The Silent Cody]

(...)  He also can't seem to grasp that this site is full of MP fans, including the guy that run it (i.e., me).  And that's a bummer for him because he's turning people off rather than taking advantage of the fact that this site could be used as another means to better promote all of his projects.  (...)"

This is just what I wanted to say. Well, it's easy to get lost in thie thread. I'm not attending on MP's forum so I don't know what's going on out there, but I wanted to say that Mike really could take some advantage of DTF. As Bosk mentioned, there are tons of his and DT fans out here and personally I never would say that some kind of trolling is happening here. Maybe I wasn't so active member in particular years, but I logged here for the first time something around 2009, so I feel a part of DTF community. Am I proud of it, people from here remembered me when I was not active through some years and it just make me feel that I'm not alone And I'm always very grateful about it. Anyway, whatever MP says or writes, will not change the fact that I was, and I probably will be DT and MP fan. Music is music, comments are comments and I just try not to connect these two with each other. It would be just too painful for me not to listen to DT with MP or MP projects after leaving DT because of His negative approach.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I personally think the biggest issue with the comment is how broad it was. I feel like if he specifically talked out his issues with those of us who he felt were being negative trolls who "live in a bubble & are worse the Blabbermouth", maybe he would actually change some of our minds instead of confirming the exact things we accuse him of.

Or not, idk

[Stadler]

I am still trying to figure out what someone's cheating wife has to do with Mike Portnoy and his slamming me just because I'm on DTF because his forum basically dried up

My point was simply, the idea that "HE LEFT! HIS FAULT!" isn't a magic eraser that negates any subsequent human emotions he might have.   Life is imperfect, and human history is LITTERED with people that perhaps are contributory in their current position but have emotions that are overwhelming or difficult to just ignore.   We can't see the future.   We can't guarantee that we can understand and assimilate any emotion that will come along.  We're allowed to regret, rue or rethink our actions.  Not suggesting that Mike has done any of that, but I think it is reasonable to consider those elements. (Certainly as reasonable as assuming that for the first time in the 200,000 years of human existence that people are black and white, cut and dry, and as simple as some want it to be.  Not referring to anyone in particular, just a general - and meant as humorous and lighthearted - comment.)

[King Postwhore]

While that is very true to use your analogy maybe if he wasn't cheating so must (playing in so many other side projects) he wouldn't have soured on his first love, DT.  Sometimes you have to look inward.

[Skeever]

1320 posts in this thread.

15,270 posts on the forum since this thread was created.

People can say what they want, but MP is right. Over 10% of the total activity at this forum right now is people who can't stop talking about Mike Portnoy.

If you don't like him IGNORE HIM.

[SwedishGoose]

And however he feels does not ,to me at least, justify him talking trash about his former wife and common friends in public.

[cramx3]

1320 posts in this thread.

15,270 posts on the forum since this thread was created.

People can say what they want, but MP is right. Over 10% of the total activity at this forum right now is people who can't stop talking about Mike Portnoy.

If you don't like him IGNORE HIM.

wut.  We are talking ~8% with those numbers.  But what does that have to do with anything? 

[SwedishGoose]

1320 posts in this thread.

15,270 posts on the forum since this thread was created.

People can say what they want, but MP is right. Over 10% of the total activity at this forum right now is people who can't stop talking about Mike Portnoy.

If you don't like him IGNORE HIM.

wut.  We are talking ~8% with those numbers.  But what does that have to do with anything?

I thonk you forgot to count some threads... Neal Morse Band has action in it at least :-)

[Skeever]

1320 posts in this thread.

15,270 posts on the forum since this thread was created.

People can say what they want, but MP is right. Over 10% of the total activity at this forum right now is people who can't stop talking about Mike Portnoy.

If you don't like him IGNORE HIM.

wut.  We are talking ~8% with those numbers.  But what does that have to do with anything? 

Yeah, what Swedish Goose said, I'd say it's over 10% when you count all the MP fixation that occurs in other threads and the other MP related threads, but this travesty alone already rounds up to 9%.

It's relevant because people here are saying they are "deeply hurt" that MP has made one general comment on this community that was not so positive, but the truth is, people here simply can not stop talking about Mike, a musician apparently nobody cares about anymore.

I don't know about you, but I have better ways to spend my day that constantly fixating on people whose music no longer interests me.

[cramx3]

I dont know, I think most people discussing MP are fans on some level.  Im sure some just discuss to give their negative view, but I think that's a very big minority here.

I think the only reason there is any discussion is because we are fans of his music

[King Postwhore]

Now I think you are being dramatic Skeever.  Don't you think that it would all settle down if Mike would let it go.  You know, his anger?

I dont know, I think most people discussing MP are fans on some level.  Im sure some just discuss to give their negative view, but I think that's a very big minority here.

I think the only reason there is any discussion is because we are fans of his music

Yup.  I will always follow his music.  We can still be disappointing that he still slings mud at DT when it's well known he forced his way out.

[SwedishGoose]

I don't know about anyone else but I am very much a fan of Mike Portnoy the artist. Seen him live twice this year. Neal Morse Band and Shattered Fortress. What I am less of a fan of is his activity on social media.

To continue the divorce analogy I am an always was a good friend of both him and his wife. Now he talks trash about his wife and about me.... how do you think that feels? Still love the man enough to not let those remarks hurt our relationship too much but I do wish he would learn to keep quiet on such occasions.

[Stadler]

While that is very true to use your analogy maybe if he wasn't cheating so must (playing in so many other side projects) he wouldn't have soured on his first love, DT.  Sometimes you have to look inward.

I don't at all disagree, and my position here notwithstanding, I believe that has to be the FIRST place you look.   

[King Postwhore]

Yup.  That's what gets people riled up and continue to sound like we hate him.  Far from the truth.  I'm just disappointed he hasn't moved on.  If he was kicked out I'd get the anger this many years later.

While that is very true to use your analogy maybe if he wasn't cheating so must (playing in so many other side projects) he wouldn't have soured on his first love, DT.  Sometimes you have to look inward.

I don't at all disagree, and my position here notwithstanding, I believe that has to be the FIRST place you look.   

Yup.  hey, I saw him last night and he ruled!  What a great show.  BTW, Tick is going to the Conn show.  Send him a PM.