Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[DragonAttack]

^
Indeed....the ELP-'Lucky Man'/Styx-'Sing For The Day' synths just ruin the moments in both tunes

[DragonAttack]

[double post]

[pcs90]

The AFTR solo is especially good, but as already said, that patch just does not fit. JR has many, many melodic solos especially on a lot of his own albums. Some are on synth, some on piano...even within his really technical piano stuff there is melody. It's just  that for some people it's harder to locate.

[Rodni Demental]

Yeah those solos are amazing (BTS AFTR), INCLUDING the patch. Don't know if that's what cheese sounds like, but it sounds completely divine to me.   

I've never seen someone call DT thrash metal.

I've seen someone think they were power metal. 

Probably because of some of the more symphonic elements on keyboard and maybe the vocals sometimes but I certainly wouldn't identify DT with that term. Funnily enough, apparently James Hetfield used power metal to describe or categorise Metallica before the term 'thrash' was coined a couple years later that they chose to identify with instead.

[Thematt202]

There are definite power metal influences in their more recent stuff. LnF, BitS and most of the ballads could fit on a number of power metal albums.

[Nothingface]

The power metal influence is obvious, especially on their earlier albums.

Thrash metal was touched upon on Train of Thought, and Systematic Chaos; but those entries are hardly enough to warrant the band as a full-fledged thrash metal act.

[jakepriest]

The power metal influence is obvious, especially on their earlier albums.

Thrash metal was touched upon on Train of Thought, and Systematic Chaos; but those entries are hardly enough to warrant the band as a full-fledged thrash metal act.

TOT and SC sound nothing like thrash metal imo.

[Lucien]

The power metal influence is obvious, especially on their earlier albums.

Thrash metal was touched upon on Train of Thought, and Systematic Chaos; but those entries are hardly enough to warrant the band as a full-fledged thrash metal act.

TOT and SC sound nothing like trash metal imo.

lol

[Nothingface]

trash metal

Yeah, that's more like it.

[Progmetty]

- The first disc Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is not one song, the old argument is that because the band made it and called it a song then it is a song, a carpenter can make a table and call it a door too but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him. The songs on that disc are barely connected musically which could also be called reprises, it never feels like the same song throughout. SFAM is as much as song as SDOIT, maybe more but it's really not.
- Octavarium would have been a better song without the Continuum intro or with a shorter version of it.
- The Root of All Evil and the title track are the best songs on Octavarium.
- FII is dreadfully awful, only DT album I'd call that.
- Jordan Rudess's playing and innovation on SFAM and after is a major part of why DT are still around now.
- Portnoy's departure totally revitalized DT and they're as lucky to have Mangini as he is to be with them.
- ADToE is the best DT album since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
- In The Name of God is boring.
- The only thing that keeps me from calling Score the worst DT home release is Chaos in Motion and that doesn't say much for Score.

[MirrorMask]

- The first disc Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is not one song, the old argument is that because the band made it and called it a song then it is a song, a carpenter can make a table and call it a door too but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him. The songs on that disc are barely connected musically which could also be called reprises, it never feels like the same song throughout. SFAM is as much as song as SDOIT, maybe more but it's really not.

*Second* disc

Well... I agree with you both, you and DT; Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is a song 'cause they called it a song, but to achieve a 42 minute song, they had to piece together various sections that do not have that one-song feel that A Change of Seasons has.

Nightwish's longest song ever, The Greatest Show on Earth on their latest album, is 24 minutes long, but it manages to to do because of a long outro where there is no music played and you hear nature sounds and the likes. Ok, it is 24 minutes, the clock says so, but it's not because they play music for 24 minutes.

Same for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, ok, it's a "song" but does not feel like one, in the old vinyl days it would have been an album on its own, maybe with Side A ending after The Test that Stumped them All.

I remember an interview with JP being asked to tell which song showcases most DT's style (or something), he picked Six Degrees adding "I'm lucky 'cause I get to pick an album" (again, not the exact quote but the sense was that). He knows as well it is really a suite.

Anyway, it's not something I lose my sleep over or that I resent the band for, I'm fine with them calling it a song, it's just that it managed to be a 42 minute a song by making a suite with recurring themes, that's all.

[BlobVanDam]

You can have whatever opinion you want, but don't try to say the band doesn't consider it a song. It is a song, regardless of whether you think it feels like one.

Personally I think it feels a lot more cohesive than ACOS, which to me is the ultimate in tacked together bits of music. Little commonality, not great flow from section to section, and nothing to make it greater than the sum of its parts, no real payoff imo.

[noxon]

Problem with six degrees is that its split up as seperate tracks on the disc, and the complete suite is rarely performed. Usually they'll pull out like war inside my head, test that stumped them all, or about to crash, or even solitary shell. And the single edit for Solitary Shell and The test that stumped them both sound good as standalones. There's not much glue that binds about to crash to war inside my head, and even less that binds goodnight kiss. solitary shell also sticks out from the rest. They're imo better as standalones, and in fact thats how i usually listen to them - i havent actually listened to the entire sdoit suite in a loooong time. ACOS, however, i listen to almost weekly.

[BlobVanDam]

Opposite for me. Never once listened to SDOIT in pieces despite being one of my most listened to songs and albums (and probably my favourite DT song). I couldn't even imagine doing that. I've rarely even watched it cut up on the live DVDs, because it feels so incomplete. I haven't listened to ACOS in so long I couldn't even tell you when.

[MHStrawn]

My most controversial opinion probably regards BC&SL.  Frankly, it's terrible.  Three things kill this album for me:

1.  Lyrics are embarrassingly bad, the kind of stuff middle-school kids writing their first songs ever would come up with.  In particular The Count of Tuscany is just cringe-worthy throughout.  Compare how stupid the lyrics of that songs to the deep, rich, questioning story found on A Change of Seasons; hard to believe the same people made these two songs.
2.  As with much of the band's later material most songs go on too long.
3.  The nu-metal influences that Portnoy insisted on bringing to the band don't fit in any way with their music IMO. 

I have lots more actually...just came to this site as a long-time (since '92) fan. 

[BlobVanDam]

You clearly haven't been around long enough to know what's controversial here.
But I'm glad to have another basher around. 

[Progmetty]

You can have whatever opinion you want, but don't try to say the band doesn't consider it a song. It is a song, regardless of whether you think it feels like one.

No mate I didn't say the band doesn't consider it a song, they do, just like the carpenter that made the table he calls a door hehe
I mean ffs man some of these songs don't even segue into one another, they just end. Some of the songs have their own distinguished verses and choruses, these are songs because as Costanza would put it "WE ARE LIVING IN A SOCIETY!"
A Change of Seasons can get away with it cause it's about half the play time of Six Degrees, the singing parts still feel connected and it is entirely about the same one subject, which Six Degrees subject of mental disorder is presented through various examples of it, not just one. I'm not a big fan of ACoS btw.

I remember an interview with JP being asked to tell which song showcases most DT's style (or something), he picked Six Degrees adding "I'm lucky 'cause I get to pick an album" (again, not the exact quote but the sense was that). He knows as well it is really a suite.

That's interesting, I'd like to find that interview!

Anyway, it's not something I lose my sleep over or that I resent the band for

Oh me neither, I don't resent the band for it. It's just that way back here on DTF there used to be heated arguments on it and people would slap you with "It's a song cause they call it one" heh

I'm fine with them calling it a song, it's just that it managed to be a 42 minute a song by making a suite with recurring themes, that's all.

You know what 42 minute song with recurring themes I've been listening to lately? The Dark Side of the Moon 

[MirrorMask]

Found it: https://www.guitarworld.com/30-veteran-guitarists-slash-steve-vai-and-john-petrucci-choose-song-theyd-want-be-remembered-part-2

It was "Which song would you like to be remembered for", the exact answer was:

"I'm very lucky because i can get away with choosing an entire CD—this 42-minute composition is the title song of our new album."

Ok, this does not make "our" point, he calls it a title song, but still, he said he's picking a CD 

Anyway, as you said - nothing to get upset about, I would never get into a fight with other fans trying to argue to death if the piece should be called a song or not. The real question for me is... what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song? something like a very extended version of The Angel and the Gambler by Iron Maiden, something I'm not so sure people would like to hear, haha!

[Progmetty]

Thanks for posting the link
I never fought anyone but I've seen it happen here, it's always amusing hehe, people are passionate about their DT!

[Lucien]

what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song?

like

a shit ton of classical music (usually of the romantic era)

[jsbru]

what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song?

like

a shit ton of classical music (usually of the romantic era)

But every symphony has movements, and they usually do not "flow together" any better than the songs on ACOS or 6DOIT do.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song?

like

a shit ton of classical music (usually of the romantic era)

But every symphony has movements, and they usually do not "flow together" any better than the songs on ACOS or 6DOIT do.

Exactly. Six Degrees should be looked at the way that classical music has movements. It's one continuous piece of music which has 8 movements, including an overture which kinda should have given away the whole 'treat it like a piece of classical music' part.
Like Blob said - you can have your opinion, but it doesn't change what's fact.

[Progmetty]

Like Blob said - you can have your opinion, but it doesn't change what's fact.

With all due respect; there's no "fact", they're all opinions, unless your definition of "fact" is what the band describes it as, which door/table again. But if you mean "fact" like "sun rises from the east" kinda fact then no, it's not.

Exactly. Six Degrees should be looked at the way that classical music has movements. It's one continuous piece of music which has 8 movements, including an overture which kinda should have given away the whole 'treat it like a piece of classical music' part.

Where's "continuous" though? let's entertain the classical music example; movements do not have verses and choruses, they are not songs, Six Degrees has 8 songs most of which got the traits of what modern and classic rock music call "song" and some of them are extremely individual in nature.
I do see your point though and it's definitely valid, the overture could be there to give away that it should be treated like a classical music piece, there's an overture in SFAM though..
Question about the movements of classical music pieces; is there silent gaps between them?

[BlobVanDam]

SDOIT is very clearly labeled as the sixth song of the album. This is a fact. Anything else beyond that is merely an opinion, because music doesn't really have facts in the same sense of "the sun rises in the east". SDOIT is no less factually a song than ACOS, or Octavarium, or anything else.
SDOIT is a song. Deal with it.

Many of DT's longer songs have multiple different verses / choruses. Having a distinct chorus doesn't make it a distinct song. Look at TGP, ANTR, Octavarium, TBOT for examples, and they're at most half the length of SDOIT. It's wrong to try and apply short song logic to a 42 minute song. There are no hard and fast rules in music. Since each section of the song deals with a new "case", it makes sense for them to be somewhat self contained in that way lyrically.

Other DT songs also have gaps. IT has a whopping break of random wind chime noises in the middle that break any semblance of flow. Is that not considered one song? ITPOE isn't even a contiguous whole on the album, yet the majority still accept the fact that's one song. TCOT has a break in the middle with the fadeout before the guitar swells come in. Octavarium has some similar breaks too.

None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.

[Lucien]

movements do not have verses and choruses

https://home.earthlink.net/~dbratman/sonata.html

[Progmetty]

None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.

I'm with you, it doesn't make any difference in how I experience or enjoy it and I wouldn't have argued semantics if everybody else -including the band- didn't insist on labeling it a song and just let the piece be there open for interpretation.
I know the whole thing sounds like I'm complaining about it but I'm really not heh, it's just a tick, I do enjoy that album immensely.

movements do not have verses and choruses

https://home.earthlink.net/~dbratman/sonata.html

Interesting read, where does it say they do have verses and chorus? I'm genuinely asking cause I know they could be using different terms for these words.

[BlobVanDam]

None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.

I'm with you, it doesn't make any difference in how I experience or enjoy it and I wouldn't have argued semantics if everybody else -including the band- didn't insist on labeling it a song and just let the piece be there open for interpretation.
I know the whole thing sounds like I'm complaining about it but I'm really not heh, it's just a tick, I do enjoy that album immensely.

I don't see how it "insists" more than any other song does.

If you enjoy the album immensely, what are we arguing about dangit? We should be DT buddies. 

[Lucien]

None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.

I'm with you, it doesn't make any difference in how I experience or enjoy it and I wouldn't have argued semantics if everybody else -including the band- didn't insist on labeling it a song and just let the piece be there open for interpretation.
I know the whole thing sounds like I'm complaining about it but I'm really not heh, it's just a tick, I do enjoy that album immensely.

movements do not have verses and choruses

https://home.earthlink.net/~dbratman/sonata.html

Interesting read, where does it say they do have verses and chorus? I'm genuinely asking cause I know they could be using different terms for these words.

first movement of a symphony

Theme I (verse I)
transition (Not a chorus, but this is where it would be)
Theme II (verse II)
Development (long bridge, a la a DT instrumental section)
Theme I
transition
Theme II
Coda (ending)

It's not perfectly the same, but it's a musical form. It is a work with sections that can be identified. A song doesn't need to have a verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus form to be a song. Look at Bohemian Rhapsody for instance.

"Question about the movements of classical music pieces; is there silent gaps between them?"

Yes.

[Progmetty]

If you enjoy the album immensely, what are we arguing about dangit? We should be DT buddies. 

We are DT buddies no matter what , I didn't mean for this to be an argument but rather a discussion, it turns into one cause this subject gets hostile replies for some reason.
Few days ago a prog page on facebook asked what DT song are you in the mood for and replied Solitary Shell and someone replied to me "uhh I think you mean Six Degrees", that's what reminded me of this old deal heh
I apologize if it seemed like I was hostile as well, I sure didn't mean to.

first movement of a symphony

Theme I (verse I)
transition (Not a chorus, but this is where it would be)
Theme II (verse II)
Development (long bridge, a la a DT instrumental section)
Theme I
transition
Theme II
Coda (ending)

Thanks bro, I sure don't listen to enough lengthy pieces of classical music to recognize parts that resemble verses and choruses.

[BlobVanDam]

If you enjoy the album immensely, what are we arguing about dangit? We should be DT buddies. 

We are DT buddies no matter what , I didn't mean for this to be an argument but rather a discussion, it turns into one cause this subject gets hostile replies for some reason.
Few days ago a prog page on facebook asked what DT song are you in the mood for and replied Solitary Shell and someone replied to me "uhh I think you mean Six Degrees", that's what reminded me of this old deal heh
I apologize if it seemed like I was hostile as well, I sure didn't mean to.

In a case like that, where it's just a matter of incidental semantics of song = track, it's all good to me.
It's only when people outright say SDOIT isn't a song I go into nerd living in their parent's basement clear my schedule because the internet is serious business lockdown mode.

[Progmetty]

That particular lockdown mode is bad news hehe

[MHStrawn]

Wow.  I can't believe there's like 30 posts going back and forth arguing about whether SDOIT is a song or not. 

[BlobVanDam]

Pffft, by DTF standards that's nothing. Just another average day.

[King Postwhore]

 

[MHStrawn]

Pffft, by DTF standards that's nothing. Just another average day.

That's an.....interesting....way of spending time.