Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 998775 times)

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Offline Dekost

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1540 on: August 29, 2013, 02:35:10 PM »
Train of Thought is a killer record.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad.
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)
This is the Life is kinda bad.
JR's lead sounds since he switched to Korg are horrible. Most of his patches sound worse than the Kurzweils patches.
Mike Mangini technique-wise is the best member in DT.
War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All are kinda meh.
Right now, low-range LaBrie is much better than high-range Labrie.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated.
I like the drum sound in ADTOE and the mix in general (ok, maybe drums could have been a little higher in volume)
The Answes Lies Within is one of DT's best ballads.

Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1541 on: August 29, 2013, 02:42:07 PM »
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)

Really? I think it's pretty popular number one choice. If not, it definitely deserves to be.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1542 on: August 29, 2013, 02:45:03 PM »
Train of Thought is a killer record. Yes.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad. It's awesome.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated. Very much so.
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Offline 425

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1543 on: August 29, 2013, 03:46:34 PM »
This. It's a fantastic album but not the easiest to listen to.

These are also my feelings towards SFAM. I love all the songs except Through Her Eyes, but to me, the concept makes it harder to get into for a fully listen and also makes it harder to listen to some of the songs on their own *glares in the general direction of Finally Free*. Whenever I do sit down and listen to it I very much enjoy it, and it's definitely in co-second place for me behind IAW and alongside 8VM and ADTOE.

I do not really like concept albums and would be happier if none existed. I don't really mind it when you have a Seventh Son of a Seventh Son or even a Clockwork Angels where all the songs can stand pretty much on their own both musically and lyrically (aside from the Only the Good Die Young outro on SSOASS and BU2B2 on CA, which are both very minor things). What I hate is when an album is broken up into a bunch of short little songs that really aren't much of musical compositions at all, just serving to further the plot. Basically the structure of concept albums like The Wall and Operation: Mindcrime bugs the hell out of me because they have all these little <2 minute pieces that are hardly even songs. This doesn't stop me from listening to them if the music is good, but it annoys me by forcing me into the mindset of a certain plot (whereas Seventh Son can be listened to without reference to the plot because Iron Maiden wisely did not include voiceovers or sections of ambient hospital noise) and makes it far less likely that I will listen to the songs outside of their albums.

Scenes From a Memory is my favorite concept album (even though it has concept-y aspects that annoy me in a way that Seventh Son and Clockwork don't) and it does have a lot of things going for it to counterbalance my annoyance with things like songs being unable to stand alone and large amounts of non-music audio in something like Finally Free. For one thing, I love the Metropolis Pt. 1 callbacks and I like that the musical concept is tied to that song, because that song is very excellent. Also, almost half of the songs by number and more than half by duration (Fatal Tragedy, Beyond This Life, Through Her Eyes, Home, The Spirit Carries On), can stand completely on their own musically because they don't have an abrupt cut off in the intro or outro (Regression, O28 and SDV all are stuck together, TMW is stuck to FT, TDOE and OLT are stuck together, and FF, while not stuck with another song, ends with like a minute thirty of plot and no music). This is good. And also, I find the story of Metropolis Pt. 2 to be very interesting and engaging, more so than most concept albums (seriously).

Anyway, this is why I find SFAM hard to listen to. It forces the story on the listener (less than many concept albums, but it still does) and it's a lot harder to get in the mood for an album that replaces a single general mood (WDADU is youthful and optimistic, BCSL is basically the mood described in the album title, etc.) with a very specific storyline, certain aspects of which the listener might like or dislike (I do dislike *spoiler* that Nicholas dies in the end because it seems to defeat the purpose of "learning about his life by living through Victoria" *end spoiler*). And, though I love the album every time I listen to it, I hear it less often than I hear the rest of the band's catalog (SDOIT is also harder than most to get through but that has more to do with length and less to do with content) because of the concept.

The thing that JLB said recently about the possibility of another concept album in the future disappoints me, because, as I think you can tell from this lengthy post, I do not like concept albums. I won't dismiss it right away, though, because I'm sure it will have good music that can hopefully be separated from the album. I fervently hope that they will do a whole WWRD thing if they make a concept album and make one that is on the CA side of the spectrum rather than the Mindcrime side.
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Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1544 on: August 29, 2013, 04:16:38 PM »
I'll go out on a limb here and say that every song on SFaM stand on its own to me, and I regularly listen to any song off the album without listening to the preceding/following tracks. But then again, I listen to DT for the music, not the lyrics, so I totally get why more lyrical-oriented people couldn't listen to songs on SFaM individually.

Offline jakepriest

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1545 on: August 29, 2013, 04:34:38 PM »
Train of Thought is a killer record.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad.
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)
This is the Life is kinda bad.
JR's lead sounds since he switched to Korg are horrible. Most of his patches sound worse than the Kurzweils patches.
Mike Mangini technique-wise is the best member in DT.
War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All are kinda meh.
Right now, low-range LaBrie is much better than high-range Labrie.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated.
I like the drum sound in ADTOE and the mix in general (ok, maybe drums could have been a little higher in volume)
The Answes Lies Within is one of DT's best ballads.

I agree with everything you've said except for This is the Life and The Answer Lies Within. The first one is great and latter is one of the worst DT songs imo.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1546 on: August 29, 2013, 04:42:26 PM »
I'll go out on a limb here and say that every song on SFaM stand on its own to me, and I regularly listen to any song off the album without listening to the preceding/following tracks. But then again, I listen to DT for the music, not the lyrics, so I totally get why more lyrical-oriented people couldn't listen to songs on SFaM individually.

This. Although I tend to couple Through My Words with Fatal Tragedy.
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Offline 425

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1547 on: August 29, 2013, 05:06:42 PM »
As I said in my insanely long post, I definitely can do that with many of the songs (FT, BTL, Home, THE, TSCO). It's probably also possible with SDV and OLT (and FF if you don't mind the whole ending part). But I don't see how anyone could listen to the others, particularly Regression and TMW, without feeling a little cheated at the end. TMW practically serves as a bridge between SDV and FT and ends somewhat abruptly. O28 and TDOE also end pretty abruptly. You could probably listen to O28/SDV without anything else though SDV's outro is slightly weird without it going into TMW. I would say half the songs you can do on the own, but with the other half it's a bit weird.
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Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1548 on: August 29, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »
Well, I guess I never listen to TMW or Regression on their own, in the same way I don't listen to Tool's little segue tunes individually. But they serve their purpose on the album.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1549 on: August 29, 2013, 05:14:51 PM »
As I said in my insanely long post, I definitely can do that with many of the songs (FT, BTL, Home, THE, TSCO). It's probably also possible with SDV and OLT (and FF if you don't mind the whole ending part). But I don't see how anyone could listen to the others, particularly Regression and TMW, without feeling a little cheated at the end. TMW practically serves as a bridge between SDV and FT and ends somewhat abruptly. O28 and TDOE also end pretty abruptly. You could probably listen to O28/SDV without anything else though SDV's outro is slightly weird without it going into TMW. I would say half the songs you can do on the own, but with the other half it's a bit weird.

Quite a few of them I had mixed into single tracks, because of those reasons. I also mixed a version of TDOE where at the end, I used the ending that they did on the Drummer auditions, giving the track a nice closure. The Making of SFAM versions of the songs all often have more conclusive endings to the tracks as well, like SDV ending without the piano from TMW starting up. Also, Finally Free on that version ends with just the music, and has some pretty cool riffs and things that got faded/cut out of the original album.
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Offline 425

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1550 on: August 29, 2013, 07:18:48 PM »
I'll have to get the Making of SFAM for sure, then! I'm curious, did you find a way to mix a version of Overture 1928 with a somewhat conclusive ending? That one has particularly bothered me because it feels practically inseparable from SDV. Sure, the music stops, but it feels inconclusive when it isn't played with immediately before SDV.

I have made versions of Scene Two (O28/SDV), Scene Three (TMW/FT) and Scene Seven (TDOE/OLT) where they are single tracks, and I made a version of Finally Free that fades out. It's not perfect but it makes the song easier to listen to.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1551 on: August 29, 2013, 07:35:25 PM »
I know what you mean. No, I just did what you did, and merged O28 and SDV together. The cool thing about the making of SFAM is that TMW by itself goes all the way through the "What does this mean?" part, and then Fatal Tragedy starts with the heavy part, and even has a couple extra lines, going, "I felt a need to try and clarify my memories. My quest begins today."

I used to have TDOE merged with OLT as well, but then I just ripped the Drummer Auditions audio from the DVD and like I said, used the end of that as my conclustion. This part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=L609JsPFmmI#t=947
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Offline XB0BX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1552 on: August 29, 2013, 08:24:25 PM »
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion

Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1553 on: August 29, 2013, 08:36:42 PM »
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion

Yeah, I mean, what's actually bad about it? Cool chords in the intro, catchy chorus, cool acoustic guitar bit. It's not their best, but what's not to like?

Offline Tis BOOLsheet

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1554 on: August 29, 2013, 08:41:40 PM »
I don't understand the Outcry hate a couple pages back. Outcry is not perfect, but it is a fantastic progressive metal song. It has probably the most insane instrumental ever in a DT song with tons of cool ideas, some of the most sophisticated drumming of any DT ever, and one of the most powerful outros. I love the synth part on "we suffered far too long..." The music goes great with the (just decent) lyrics. I wouldn't give the song a 10/10, but there is a shitload to be happy about in that tune.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1555 on: August 29, 2013, 08:55:57 PM »
Outcry is the highlight of ADTOE, as far as I'm concerned.
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"

Offline Rattlehead

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1556 on: August 29, 2013, 08:58:18 PM »
I just think the lyrics are cheesy and I don't really care for James' delivery of them either... I don't think it's a bad song at all though.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1557 on: August 29, 2013, 09:04:09 PM »
I just think the lyrics are cheesy and I don't really care for James' delivery of them either...

Sounds like half the songs on the album. They're still great songs.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1558 on: August 29, 2013, 09:04:29 PM »
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion

I do think the 'public" opinion here can definitely influence the extent to which someone likes/dislikes something (like Raw Dog), but not whether they like it or not.

I'm the last person to follow the public opinion of the forum (I don't even rank ACOS top 50 :lol ), but I still don't think it's a great song. I don't think it's a bad song either, but I'd still rank it as one of DT's lesser songs, and would usually skip it.
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Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1559 on: August 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM »
I don't understand the Outcry hate a couple pages back. Outcry is not perfect, but it is a fantastic progressive metal song. It has probably the most insane instrumental ever in a DT song with tons of cool ideas, some of the most sophisticated drumming of any DT ever, and one of the most powerful outros. I love the synth part on "we suffered far too long..." The music goes great with the (just decent) lyrics. I wouldn't give the song a 10/10, but there is a shitload to be happy about in that tune.

I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together. And I don't feel this way with nearly any other DT song. And the prechorus-type thing in 9/8(or whatever it is) is one of the least catchy and most annoying musical phrases I can think of in a DT song.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1560 on: August 29, 2013, 09:50:40 PM »
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"

Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1561 on: August 29, 2013, 10:27:09 PM »
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.

Offline adastra

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1562 on: August 29, 2013, 11:34:59 PM »
Train of Thought is a killer record.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad.
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)
This is the Life is kinda bad.
JR's lead sounds since he switched to Korg are horrible. Most of his patches sound worse than the Kurzweils patches.
Mike Mangini technique-wise is the best member in DT.
War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All are kinda meh.
Right now, low-range LaBrie is much better than high-range Labrie.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated.
I like the drum sound in ADTOE and the mix in general (ok, maybe drums could have been a little higher in volume)
The Answes Lies Within is one of DT's best ballads.

I agree :3
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Offline Ruba

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1563 on: September 01, 2013, 08:06:03 AM »
Outcry is the highlight of ADTOE, as far as I'm concerned.

 :tup With OTBOA.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1564 on: September 01, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.

How is that different from Metropolis?

Offline Tom Bombadil

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1565 on: September 01, 2013, 11:34:52 AM »
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.

How is that different from Metropolis?
It's not. In fact I think the structures of each song are quite similar. Unfortunately, I dislike the instrumental section in both.

Offline aprilethereal

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1566 on: September 01, 2013, 11:43:18 AM »
:o Metropolis' instrumental section is beyond awesome. Especially that bass solo.

Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1567 on: September 01, 2013, 11:45:27 AM »
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.

How is that different from Metropolis?

With Metropolis, I feel like the vibe and atmosphere of the ideas all fit together well and are put together somewhat cohesively, whereas I feel the opposite for Outcry.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1568 on: September 01, 2013, 12:28:57 PM »
:o Metropolis' instrumental section is beyond awesome. Especially that bass solo.

Yes, but Outcry's bass solo is beyond awesome as well.
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Offline JPX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1569 on: September 02, 2013, 08:25:24 AM »
A considerable amount of people seem to enjoy the FII Demos and wish that the album had been released that way.

My controversial opinion therefore is that those songs (the ones left off the album) are the worst collection of songs that DT ever wrote and are best left on a ytsejam demo release.

I love FII as it was released.

Offline aprilethereal

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1570 on: September 02, 2013, 09:25:11 AM »
But... Raise The Knife..?.? :sad:

Offline robwebster

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1571 on: September 02, 2013, 09:45:39 AM »
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.

Offline chaotic_ripper

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1572 on: September 02, 2013, 11:13:58 AM »
But... Raise The Knife..?.? :sad:
It ain't got nothing on LITS or TOT

Offline wolven74

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1573 on: September 02, 2013, 11:29:36 AM »
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.
Found this song on Youtube. Not sure if it would have been the best song on the album, but it certainly should have made the album. Great tune. :metal

On another note, I'll paraphrase a comment on there that I totally agree with. While Jordan is technically a better player, he can't hold a candle to Kevin Moore's arrangement.
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In what friggin' universe is a 68 minute long album "short"?

Offline aprilethereal

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #1574 on: September 02, 2013, 11:38:42 AM »