Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[aprilethereal]

It still feels to me like DT are still climbing in popularity. This new album may well welcome on board a lot of new fans.

I agree, and that's awesome
(well not that I agree, but what you mentioned)

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

Technically, yes. Otherwise? Not sure.

[BlobVanDam]

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

No controversy from me.

Same.
Firing Derek for Jordan was the best decision the band ever made (and it worked out best for both parties).

[mikeyd23]

Firing Derek for Jordan was the best decision the band ever made (and it worked out best for both parties).

I totally agree with this! Imagine trying to find a replacement for JR.... That would certainly be hard!

[Dark Castle]

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

No controversy from me.

Same.
Firing Derek for Jordan was the best decision the band ever made (and it worked out best for both parties).

I hold Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess up equally, while Images and Words is my favorite DT album and KM shines and dazzles on it, JR has a shit ton of moments that are just as breathtaking.

DT's never had a shortage of amazing keyboards 

[Outcrier]

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again 

[Ben_Jamin]

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again 

I agree with this too. Which is why they can never ever capture that same sound again. And a reason why I can appreciate DT for what they are now.

[TheGreatPretender]

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again 

I think their sound changed quite a bit with Jordan Rudess, but that being said, they sure as hell acquired a whole new signature sound with JR, and it's impossible not to recognize it.

[jsem]

Ytse Jam is my fav DT instrumental.

If it weren't for Eve, I'd agree.

[aprilethereal]

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again 

I think their sound changed quite a bit with Jordan Rudess, but that being said, they sure as hell acquired a whole new signature sound with JR, and it's impossible not to recognize it.

Exactly. And they have accomplished to change their sound, but still sound like DT. They are recognisable as themselves, whether you listen to I&W or SC or whatever.

[Outcrier]

The masterplan was dump Rudess after Six Degrees, get another keyboardist, make two albums, dump the new keyboardist then repeat until forever

Just joking

[lyfeternl]

The (dark)masterplan was dump Rudess after Six Degrees, get another keyboardist, make two albums, dump the new keyboardist then repeat until forever

Just joking

FTFY

[BlobVanDam]

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again 

But they gained a signature sound with Rudess, and one that I personally much prefer. SFAM and SDOIT are DT's 2 best albums imo, for that very reason.

[adastra]

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again 

But they gained a signature sound with Rudess, and one that I personally much prefer. SFAM and SDOIT are DT's 2 best albums imo, for that very reason.

It would be cool to hear where their sound would have evolved to if Derek wasn't fired

[TheGreatPretender]

It would be cool. Considering the kind of stuff Derek did with Planet X, it would have been cool to see him bring that kind of keyboard rockin' to DT. But ah well.

[Outcrier]

JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again 

But they gained a signature sound with Rudess, and one that I personally much prefer. SFAM and SDOIT are DT's 2 best albums imo, for that very reason.

The two are my favorites DT albums too, but i think the older signature sound was stronger (even FII) and had more emotion and honesty in it, i can't explain it right with words... 
After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting 

[TheGreatPretender]

After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Outcrier]

After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Well, generally, it's lazy... Seems to me like: "don't know what do do in this part, just gonna play a super fast solo"
Of course, there are "exceptions" like, the unison in Blind Faith  I'ts well thought of and not just random notes like the section after the intro of Lost Not Forgotten...

[Estiui]

That keyboardist matter has been discussed for years without a clear winner. IMO, we should see it separating our opinions in some keyboard fields, for example:

-Soloing: KM
-Atmosphere: KM
-Cool new sounds (also bad new ones): JR
-Technique: JR

Anyway, my opinion is that JR could become better than KM if he stopped his wankery (even when playing piano), specially when soloing. However, he has done some great solos, and also brought that kind of special or different moments that didn't exist with KM: honkytonks, some strange progressions, cool new different sounds and moments... However, KM had always that sound that fitted perfectly in DT. It was not necessarily complex, but was perfect. Also, his soloing was more melodic and less wankery.

In summary, JR has a lot more potential, but KM used his abilities better.

[BlobVanDam]

After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Well, generally, it's lazy... Seems to me like: "don't know what do do in this part, just gonna play a super fast solo"
Of course, there are "exceptions" like, the unison in Blind Faith  I'ts well thought of and not just random notes like the section after the intro of Lost Not Forgotten...

Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does!
Whatever "wankery" SFAM has, I wish they'd do more of that, because to me that album is exactly what I want DT to be doing instrumentally. It's fast, it's fun, it's memorable, and it's distinctively DT.
If I wanted to not be listening to "wankery" I'd not listen to DT.

And-
-Soloing: JR
-Atmosphere: JR by miles
-Cool new sounds: JR by miles (the others stuck to basic sounds)
-Technique: JR

[TheGreatPretender]

Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does!

My main issue with that intro isn't that it's wanky, I just don't like the dissonance of it. It's too all over the place, and I guess my ears are just confused by it.
But after seeing JR play it (in his YouTube practice video) I have a hell of a lot more appreciation for it. It's definitely anything but lazy.

Whatever "wankery" SFAM has, I wish they'd do more of that, because to me that album is exactly what I want DT to be doing instrumentally. It's fast, it's fun, it's memorable, and it's distinctively DT.

Amen. 

[BlobVanDam]

Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does!

My main issue with that intro isn't that it's wanky, I just don't like the dissonance of it. It's too all over the place, and I guess my ears are just confused by it.
But after seeing JR play it (in his YouTube practice video) I have a hell of a lot more appreciation for it. It's definitely anything but lazy.

That's fair enough. I don't have a problem with dissonance as long as it sounds good to me, and that one sounds good to me. If they were being lazy, they would be more likely to stick to scales/modes and just play familiar arpeggiated patterns, so dissonance can take more work to write to sound good, because it's not as "safe".

Look at JP's first shred solo in BTL. I recall reading that he wrote that solo to intentionally to not use any notes in key, so it's entirely dissonant, and then play it fast so it works. And to me that does work. It serves the intent of the song, and sounds chaotic in a pleasing way to me.

[Outcrier]

Other thing i wanna say is, when you heard a classic song, you generally think: "This song is so perfect, i would not change anything in it"
Let me see, pick Under a Glass Moon... i would not change anything in it... It's a perfect song!
The point is, since 8varium, i don't see Dream Theater being able to write "perfect songs" (not all of them, there's some exceptions of course).
Hearing the songs, i have the feeling that something is missing or some section is out-of-place("They could have done better than this")

[BlobVanDam]

Other thing i wanna say is, when you heard a classic song, you generally think: "This song is so perfect, i would not change anything in it"
Let me see, pick Under a Glass Moon... i would not change anything in it... It's a perfect song!
The point is, since 8varium, i don't see Dream Theater being able to write "perfect songs" (not all of them, there's some exceptions of course).
Hearing the songs, i have the feeling that something is missing or some section is out-of-place("They could have done better than this")

Well that's just like, your opinion, man!
I'd consider IaW near perfect in that regard (aside from LTL which I have some major issues with), but I'd change almost everything about WDADU, and a lot about Awake too. So still very hit and miss for that era to me.
I wouldn't change a note on SFAM, or SDOIT, and there are plenty of songs on Octavarium onwards I wouldn't change at all either. And when I would, it doesn't have anything to do with JR. I think "I wish this had more JR" a lot more than I've ever thought "I wish this had less JR" (which is extremely rarely).

[TheGreatPretender]

And I personally think they've written plenty of those 'perfect' songs since the 8VM era. In that particular sense of perfect anyway, there have been plenty of songs where I didn't for a second feel like something was missing.

[Outcrier]

After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Well, generally, it's lazy... Seems to me like: "don't know what do do in this part, just gonna play a super fast solo"
Of course, there are "exceptions" like, the unison in Blind Faith  I'ts well thought of and not just random notes like the section after the intro of Lost Not Forgotten...

Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does!
Whatever "wankery" SFAM has, I wish they'd do more of that, because to me that album is exactly what I want DT to be doing instrumentally. It's fast, it's fun, it's memorable, and it's distinctively DT.
If I wanted to not be listening to "wankery" I'd not listen to DT.

And-
-Soloing: JR
-Atmosphere: JR by miles
-Cool new sounds: JR by miles (the others stuck to basic sounds)
-Technique: JR

Well, the "wankery" in SFAM was Blind Faith level, like, it was not lazy at all, it was carefully written...
I already said that SFAM and SDOIT are my 2 favorites...My beef is with things post-SDOIT... Pick This Dying Soul ending for example... I like that section, upbeat, bass driving it but is all that wankery necessary?

Edit: Petrucci could have written a great solo for that ending

[Outcrier]

Well that's just like, your opinion, man!

LOL Blob, of course it's my opinion, i'm not stating facts here 

[TheGreatPretender]

I think the ending of TDS is hella fun. They set out to create a fast, intense, heavy balls to the wall album, and that section exemplifies that they achieved what they were going for. Yes, he could have written a great solo, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

[BlobVanDam]

Well that's just like, your opinion, man!

LOL Blob, of course it's my opinion, i'm not stating facts here 

It's just a common phrase. Haven't you seen that one before?

Well, the "wankery" in SFAM was Blind Faith level, like, it was not lazy at all, it was carefully written...
I already said that SFAM and SDOIT are my 2 favorites...My beef is with things post-SDOIT... Pick This Dying Soul ending for example... I like that section, upbeat, bass driving it but is all that wankery necessary?

That last minute? Definitely "no" in that case.
But that was the shred album, so that particular album was intentionally over the top. I can live with that. And I didn't find anything in other songs like ITNOG excessively wanky, though some others do.
Then with Octavarium, they balanced that out. Look at a song like These Walls. That was an extremely tasteful song, with not a single note of excess, and it didn't become overly simple or poppy in the process. Plenty of other examples too, as you'll find examples you'd call excessive. A lot of it just comes down to personal taste.
To me, it's a defining characteristic of DT. Non prog/DT fans might consider a random synth unison in the middle of Metropolis too wanky too. Personally, I don't care. I likes it for what it is!

[Outcrier]

I think the ending of TDS is hella fun. They set out to create a fast, intense, heavy balls to the wall album, and that section exemplifies that they achieved what they were going for. Yes, he could have written a great solo, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

There's no alternate ending, so there's no way of knowing if that section could be improved or not.
I like that ending too, but i imagine, if done differently, they could do even better?
Pick Razor's Edge solo, i can't see a way of improve it, i think it's perfect

[Outcrier]

Ow f*ck, i forgot, Big Lebowski 

[Outcrier]

That last minute? Definitely "no" in that case.
But that was the shred album, so that particular album was intentionally over the top. I can live with that. And I didn't find anything in other songs like ITNOG excessively wanky, though some others do.
Then with Octavarium, they balanced that out. Look at a song like These Walls. That was an extremely tasteful song, with not a single note of excess, and it didn't become overly simple or poppy in the process. Plenty of other examples too, as you'll find examples you'd call excessive. A lot of it just comes down to personal taste.
To me, it's a defining characteristic of DT. Non prog/DT fans might consider a random synth unison in the middle of Metropolis too wanky too. Personally, I don't care. I likes it for what it is!

When i said "since 8varium", i meant "post-8varium"
These Walls is very good indeed 

[aprilethereal]

I think the ending of TDS is hella fun. They set out to create a fast, intense, heavy balls to the wall album, and that section exemplifies that they achieved what they were going for. Yes, he could have written a great solo, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

This. The ending works perfectly for the song.


And on the subject of TOT: I think that album contains some of the best and most memorable instrumental sections in DT history, despite being full of wankery: Endless Sacrifice, ITNOG, Honor Thy Father (not really much wankery here, but amazing instrumental section nonetheless).

[TheGreatPretender]

Except for Vacant. Too much wankery in that one. 

[BlobVanDam]

When i said "since 8varium", i meant "post-8varium"
These Walls is very good indeed 

I know, i was just using it as an example of the JR era in general. I also could have said the same thing about Wither, although the album in general is not exactly the best example of DT's restraint.

[adastra]

-Soloing: DS
-Atmosphere: KM
-Cool new sounds: JR . I guess he is the only one experimenting with new sounds.
-Technique: JR
-Overall: DS by miles.

WOO-HOOO!  Case closed!