Author Topic: The official Opeth thread v. Bring on the new album!  (Read 193992 times)

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Offline Zantera

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #735 on: December 26, 2012, 01:31:02 AM »
Well yeah, but that is not totally uncommon for metal fans. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but I've met so many people who are metal fans, who talk about bands being "true" or "sell outs", and it's just pretty lame to me.

Offline black_biff_stadler

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #736 on: December 26, 2012, 01:42:14 AM »
It's funny how the most vocal critics of those who miss the familiar Opeth style are those who like Heritage anyway. It's easy to unconditionally accept their output if you didn't have to deal with being bummed out by a new release. Show me someone who dislikes Heritage yet shares you guys' point of view.

Also, I somewhat like Heritage myself so I'm not just hating for the hell of it. I was just far from pleased with it overall.
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Offline Zantera

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #737 on: December 26, 2012, 02:24:44 AM »
Well I don't really love it myself. I think it's a good album, but personally I'm from the standpoint that I'd rather see the band trying something new, which will at least be exciting, instead of making an album they've done before, and doing it worse.

And please lets not get into the "all Opeth albums sound the same" because that's not what I mean at all. I'm just happy they made Heritage instead of BWP part 2, that's all I'm saying. :P

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #738 on: December 26, 2012, 08:13:46 AM »
I wouldn't say I love Heritage, either, but it's far from their worst album IMO, and much more interesting than a basic Opeth album would've been.

Also, I'll repost this hilarious link so that people can see it on this page too:
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Offline PixelDream

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #739 on: December 26, 2012, 10:39:12 AM »
I like a few songs from Heritage: Title track, The Devil's Orchard, Folklore and Marrow of the Earth. That's it. Okay maybe 'I Feel the Dark'. The rest is entertaining for a while, but becomes ultimately forgettable.
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Offline TioJorge

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #740 on: December 26, 2012, 10:59:06 AM »
I Feel The Dark is beautiful. The whole album is beautiful but this is the 'heavy' track off the album that proved to me that they can do just fine without the growls and the usual Opeth 'gimmicks' (for lack of a better word, don't jump my ass. Or do.  :police:) to portray a feeling of harshness. The "mother of lies" section is friggin incredible. Goosebumps errytime.

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Offline Mladen

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #741 on: December 26, 2012, 11:02:21 AM »
It's funny how the most vocal critics of those who miss the familiar Opeth style are those who like Heritage anyway. It's easy to unconditionally accept their output if you didn't have to deal with being bummed out by a new release. Show me someone who dislikes Heritage yet shares you guys' point of view.
I'll take Symphony X for example. Iconoclast honestly didn't appeal to me at all. In fact, I can hardly listen to any song from that album apart from When all is lost, the rest of the album sounds far away from what I want to hear from those guys.

But I still realize that's the kind of music Symphony X wants to put out, that's what they find fresh and inspiring, and they obviously don't feel like putting out ten more albums in the vein of Divine wings of tragedy. More power to them, and I'm happy that they're successful with their new sound. I don't follow them anymore, I hardly get excited about any Symphony X news, but I can still put on Twilight in Olympus when I want to. I do miss the old sound of theirs, but I'm not going to cry over the change in style. There are many other bands that continue to make me happy.  :metal

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #742 on: December 26, 2012, 02:17:44 PM »
None of us are saying they need to put out Ghost Reveries V.5.0 out, but to completely ditch a part of what made Opeth the band they are (vocals) just didn't sit well for a lot of people. 
Just to answer BF's question, I do enjoy Heritage now, but it doesn't hold a candle to their earlier albums.  Several points in that album would have been better to me with the inclusion of the growls.

Offline gazinwales

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #743 on: December 26, 2012, 02:35:15 PM »
None of us are saying they need to put out Ghost Reveries V.5.0 out, but to completely ditch a part of what made Opeth the band they are (vocals) just didn't sit well for a lot of people. 
Just to answer BF's question, I do enjoy Heritage now, but it doesn't hold a candle to their earlier albums.  Several points in that album would have been better to me with the inclusion of the growls.

I'm with you 100% on this. Not just ditching the vocals, but the whole heavier sound as well. Then go out on tour and play a full show of all the 'softer' songs.
Was a slap in the face to all those fans, like me who have supported Opeth for a longtime.

Offline glaurung

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #744 on: December 26, 2012, 02:44:48 PM »
They were touring in support of heritage so they made a setlist that supported the sound of Heritage. It made complete sense to me.
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Offline Zantera

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #745 on: December 26, 2012, 02:55:59 PM »
They were touering in support of heritage so they made a setlist that supported the sound of Heritage. It made complete sense to me.

Yeah this. And it still surprises me that people bitch about it. They ditched growl songs for ONE tour? boohoo. Look at it from the other angle instead, you might have witnessed a really unique gig considering some songs they decided to bring out, that was really cool.

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #746 on: December 26, 2012, 03:31:04 PM »
They were touering in support of heritage so they made a setlist that supported the sound of Heritage. It made complete sense to me.

It made sense, and the first time I saw them on that tour was pretty sweet because of the heavy stuff like Face of Melinda and Closure, even without the harsh growls (though of course I would have liked to see them).

The Mastopeth show though was pretty tame and needed more moments like that.  Before the two growly songs, "Lines in My Hand" was the only song I really got into.  Yeah, "Windowpane" was great to see, but surrounded by the other songs on the setlist I didn't feel as into it.  I guess after seeing Ghost and being excited as all hell for Mastodon again I was really jonesing for heavier Opeth that weren't two of their most heavily played songs. 

Hopefully though this NA tour will be as heavy as the recent Euro shows...

Offline Zantera

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #747 on: December 26, 2012, 03:40:22 PM »
I can't wait to see what Opeth do next musically. I think it often takes a few tries to master a certain sound, not many people consider Orchid or Morningrise to be among their best, but My Arms, Your Hearse and Still Life for example, more well crafted albums.
I think the Heritage-sound has the potential to be really awesome, I liked Heritage (but didn't love it), but maybe if they continue trying to perfect it, they'll make a 5/5 album in that sound.

Offline pogoowner

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #748 on: December 26, 2012, 03:51:48 PM »
I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.

Offline Onno

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #749 on: December 26, 2012, 04:57:15 PM »
I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.
^this

Offline ColdFireYYZ

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #750 on: December 26, 2012, 05:27:45 PM »
I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.
Agreed. Its one of my favorites as well. I have nothing against the heavy stuff but I prefer the more mellow, proggy side of Opeth.

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #751 on: December 26, 2012, 06:49:03 PM »
They were touering in support of heritage so they made a setlist that supported the sound of Heritage. It made complete sense to me.

Yeah this. And it still surprises me that people bitch about it. They ditched growl songs for ONE tour? boohoo. Look at it from the other angle instead, you might have witnessed a really unique gig considering some songs they decided to bring out, that was really cool.
My only complaint was that the acoustic section really killed what energy the band had going that night and combine that with the fact that I didn't like "The Throat Of Winter" live at all.  Otherwise, great show, gave me some new appreciation for the Heritage songs and I like "Porcelain Heart" much more now.

I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.
Agreed. Its one of my favorites as well. I have nothing against the heavy stuff but I prefer the more mellow, proggy side of Opeth.
I just hope that, if they continue on with this mellow, proggy stuff, they write some better songs.

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #752 on: December 26, 2012, 08:24:24 PM »
None of us are saying they need to put out Ghost Reveries V.5.0 out, but to completely ditch a part of what made Opeth the band they are (vocals) just didn't sit well for a lot of people. 
Just to answer BF's question, I do enjoy Heritage now, but it doesn't hold a candle to their earlier albums.  Several points in that album would have been better to me with the inclusion of the growls.
Just quoting this because it was glossed right over.
That being said, I really enjoy the first few tracks and outburst of madness, but I usually only fully listen to the album when going to bed.

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #753 on: December 26, 2012, 08:27:08 PM »
I can't wait to see what Opeth do next musically. I think it often takes a few tries to master a certain sound, not many people consider Orchid or Morningrise to be among their best, but My Arms, Your Hearse and Still Life for example, more well crafted albums.
I think the Heritage-sound has the potential to be really awesome, I liked Heritage (but didn't love it), but maybe if they continue trying to perfect it, they'll make a 5/5 album in that sound.

I like "I Feel the Dark" and "Lines in my Hand" most on the disc, so more of that could be cool.  Proggy but still really intense.

Offline Mladen

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #754 on: December 27, 2012, 01:28:07 AM »
I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.
Agreed. Its one of my favorites as well. I have nothing against the heavy stuff but I prefer the more mellow, proggy side of Opeth.
All of this.

Speaking of their mellow side, the last minute or so in Dirge for November is one of the best mellow Opeth moments ever. Just sayin'.  :hat

Offline TioJorge

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #755 on: December 27, 2012, 02:39:06 AM »
I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.
Agreed. Its one of my favorites as well. I have nothing against the heavy stuff but I prefer the more mellow, proggy side of Opeth.
All of this.

Speaking of their mellow side, the last minute or so in Dirge for November is one of the best mellow Opeth moments ever. Just sayin'.  :hat
:heart :heart :heart
Oh, hell yeah; it is amazingly entrancing and one of the most beautifully melancholic moments in their history. Right after a vehemently brutal onslaught of some of the best, most hardcore music they've written. Amazing track; my favorite outro perhaps.

None of us are saying they need to put out Ghost Reveries V.5.0 out, but to completely ditch a part of what made Opeth the band they are (vocals) just didn't sit well for a lot of people. 
Just to answer BF's question, I do enjoy Heritage now, but it doesn't hold a candle to their earlier albums.  Several points in that album would have been better to me with the inclusion of the growls.

I'm with you 100% on this. Not just ditching the vocals, but the whole heavier sound as well. Then go out on tour and play a full show of all the 'softer' songs.
Was a slap in the face to all those fans, like me who have supported Opeth for a longtime.

 :| Wat...REALLY? That is immensely ridiculous. How exactly is that a "slap in the face to all those fans"? I absolutely cannot comprehend that thought process. I'm not trying to start an argument; I really do want to know how and why you see that as a betrayal of some kind. As if they're obliged to make music the way you or anyone else wants it. I find that completely illogical, self-centered and in some ways naive.

Opeth define who they are as a band and what they represent, not the fans or anyone else outside that circle; the fact that they changed their sound, no matter how drastic of a change that may have been, should tell you that they are ready to expand their horizons, to change what makes them Opeth. Sure, the vocals are a large part of who Opeth are as a band, but if that is all that any fan sees in them, they've missed a huge chunk of what makes this band so special; and it sure as shit doesn't rely solely on the vocals. Hell, even the harsh metal aspect, while obviously the larger body of the band, clearly isn't what the band themselves saw as a (stagnant) representation of who they are.

For anyone outside the band to say that their change is in 'who they are' apparently missed the memo that bands (read: not fan-slaves) sometimes change (drastically at times), evolve their sound and move in a different musical direction; to explore new avenues and to keep things interesting and fun, and maybe even challenge themselves. It is entirely possible that if they had catered to the masses that we would have gotten a half-assed, uninspired, generic, stale metal album that proved only to support the fact that something fresh is needed. The idea that it's a "slap in the face" to fans simply because the direction their heading musically isn't to your liking is...quite frankly, idiotic. Not you, but that train of thought. I can't wrap my head around that pompous state of mind. They make their own descisions and if you don't like it, that's really too bad; it happens. But why does that make them as a band somehow evil/stupid/sell-outs/less-of-an-artist/backstabbers/any other ignorant label.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 03:02:06 AM by TioJorge »

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Offline Sketchy

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #756 on: December 27, 2012, 03:05:24 AM »
I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.

Agreed, I think there's a lot more they still have left to explore from there. Hell, it's almost definitive of Opeth in a "you're not getting what you expect, but it'll still be good, if not better because of it" which defines their songwriting for me.
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Offline cyberdrummer

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #757 on: December 27, 2012, 07:00:19 AM »
@TioJorge

I completely agree that a band should be able to change direction on record, without having to explain themselves to, or cater to, the fans. However, to completely omit heavy, harsh vocals (which, like it or not, are 'a part of what made Opeth the band they are') is somewhat disrespectful to the fans who have put Opeth where they are today. I understand they wanted the Heritage vibe on that tour, but all it needed was Deliverance, for example, in the setlist, just as a nod to their past.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #758 on: December 27, 2012, 07:08:06 AM »
I love Heritage, and I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they released another album with a similar vibe. Heritage is right up there with their best albums for me. They absolutely nailed the mood they were going for with it.
Agreed. Its one of my favorites as well. I have nothing against the heavy stuff but I prefer the more mellow, proggy side of Opeth.
All of this.

Speaking of their mellow side, the last minute or so in Dirge for November is one of the best mellow Opeth moments ever. Just sayin'.  :hat
:heart :heart :heart
Oh, hell yeah; it is amazingly entrancing and one of the most beautifully melancholic moments in their history. Right after a vehemently brutal onslaught of some of the best, most hardcore music they've written. Amazing track; my favorite outro perhaps.

None of us are saying they need to put out Ghost Reveries V.5.0 out, but to completely ditch a part of what made Opeth the band they are (vocals) just didn't sit well for a lot of people. 
Just to answer BF's question, I do enjoy Heritage now, but it doesn't hold a candle to their earlier albums.  Several points in that album would have been better to me with the inclusion of the growls.

I'm with you 100% on this. Not just ditching the vocals, but the whole heavier sound as well. Then go out on tour and play a full show of all the 'softer' songs.
Was a slap in the face to all those fans, like me who have supported Opeth for a longtime.

 :| Wat...REALLY? That is immensely ridiculous. How exactly is that a "slap in the face to all those fans"? I absolutely cannot comprehend that thought process. I'm not trying to start an argument; I really do want to know how and why you see that as a betrayal of some kind. As if they're obliged to make music the way you or anyone else wants it. I find that completely illogical, self-centered and in some ways naive.

Opeth define who they are as a band and what they represent, not the fans or anyone else outside that circle; the fact that they changed their sound, no matter how drastic of a change that may have been, should tell you that they are ready to expand their horizons, to change what makes them Opeth. Sure, the vocals are a large part of who Opeth are as a band, but if that is all that any fan sees in them, they've missed a huge chunk of what makes this band so special; and it sure as shit doesn't rely solely on the vocals. Hell, even the harsh metal aspect, while obviously the larger body of the band, clearly isn't what the band themselves saw as a (stagnant) representation of who they are.

For anyone outside the band to say that their change is in 'who they are' apparently missed the memo that bands (read: not fan-slaves) sometimes change (drastically at times), evolve their sound and move in a different musical direction; to explore new avenues and to keep things interesting and fun, and maybe even challenge themselves. It is entirely possible that if they had catered to the masses that we would have gotten a half-assed, uninspired, generic, stale metal album that proved only to support the fact that something fresh is needed. The idea that it's a "slap in the face" to fans simply because the direction their heading musically isn't to your liking is...quite frankly, idiotic. Not you, but that train of thought. I can't wrap my head around that pompous state of mind. They make their own descisions and if you don't like it, that's really too bad; it happens. But why does that make them as a band somehow evil/stupid/sell-outs/less-of-an-artist/backstabbers/any other ignorant label.
While bands do change sounds over time, to completely throw out key elements to Opeth's sound was kind of disappointing, I don't get why Growls and some more heaviness would have made it a "stale metal album" if anything it would have added more flavor to an album that could have used it.  Some of it worked well, songs like The Devils Orchard, I Feel The Dark, Nepenthe, but the rest just didn't really gel.  The flute felt out of place and weird, and Slither is a very "meh" song, which I really really hope they don't take that direction with the next album. Anywho, I don't get what's so wrong with thinking it could have been heavier, there could have been growls, and there should have been both, because Heritage needs it.  The Devils orchard which I think is a 4/5 Opeth song would have been a 5/5 with some well placed growls, and that one part of I Feel The Dark would have been a 5/5 song as well if it'd just had Mikael howling.
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Offline Mladen

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #759 on: December 27, 2012, 07:18:39 AM »
@TioJorge

I completely agree that a band should be able to change direction on record, without having to explain themselves to, or cater to, the fans. However, to completely omit heavy, harsh vocals (which, like it or not, are 'a part of what made Opeth the band they are') is somewhat disrespectful to the fans who have put Opeth where they are today. I understand they wanted the Heritage vibe on that tour, but all it needed was Deliverance, for example, in the setlist, just as a nod to their past.
The thing is, I don't think that Opeth at any moment in their career wrote songs with an intention to create a huge fanbase. They wrote Still life because that's the kind of music they wanted to write. They wrote Heritage because that's the kind of music they wanted to write.

It makes no sense to me that a band's creativity depends on the fans that wouldn't even be fans if the band didn't record and put out albums on their own terms.

Mikael put his heart and soul creating Heritage, yet some fans keep dissing it. Isn't that disrespectful and slap in the face to someone who made those exact fans happy for so long as well? But that brings me to another point, which is that, in my opinion, we should really pick words much more carefully when we're expressing our dissatisfaction with someone's music. I seriously can't remember the last time I called an album ''shit''. But that's a whole other story...

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #760 on: December 27, 2012, 07:25:51 AM »
@TioJorge

I completely agree that a band should be able to change direction on record, without having to explain themselves to, or cater to, the fans. However, to completely omit heavy, harsh vocals (which, like it or not, are 'a part of what made Opeth the band they are') is somewhat disrespectful to the fans who have put Opeth where they are today. I understand they wanted the Heritage vibe on that tour, but all it needed was Deliverance, for example, in the setlist, just as a nod to their past.
The thing is, I don't think that Opeth at any moment in their career wrote songs with an intention to create a huge fanbase. They wrote Still life because that's the kind of music they wanted to write. They wrote Heritage because that's the kind of music they wanted to write.

It makes no sense to me that a band's creativity depends on the fans that wouldn't even be fans if the band didn't record and put out albums on their own terms.

Mikael put his heart and soul creating Heritage, yet some fans keep dissing it. Isn't that disrespectful and slap in the face to someone who made those exact fans happy for so long as well? But that brings me to another point, which is that, in my opinion, we should really pick words much more carefully when we're expressing our dissatisfaction with someone's music. I seriously can't remember the last time I called an album ''shit''. But that's a whole other story...
Anything is subject to critisicm, and anyone has the right to think something is shit.  I don't think it is, but it's near the bottom in my rankings, it's not nearly as breath taking as most of their other work.

Offline Mladen

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #761 on: December 27, 2012, 07:32:02 AM »
Of course you can think something is shit. But maybe think twice before you say it. That's a different story, though, but I kinda connected it with fans practically asking bands to show respect, while the fans themselves certainly don't do that.

Offline cyberdrummer

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #762 on: December 27, 2012, 07:32:42 AM »
Like I said, Opeth can create whatever album they like, I'm not saying fans should dictate that. But I kinda think that when a band reaches a certain level in terms of touring capacity and size of venue (a level that both Opeth and DT have now reached), I think they should have some thought for what fans want to hear at a show. After all, it is now touring that brings the most money in for most bands.

A band can satisfy their musical desires in the studio, but playing live is a different business, and to omit a massive part of their 'heritage' (excuse the pun) from a setlist is, I believe, disrespectful. Fortunately it seems like Opeth have realised this, and have gone back to including heavy vocals in their live set. In my opinion, concerts are supposed to be a form of entertainment for paying customers, not an opportunity for a band to satisfy curiosities. As a result, bands are duty bound to cater to their fans' wishes to a certain extent.

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #763 on: December 27, 2012, 07:36:06 AM »
I'd also like to note that while it's definitely not everyone, but a lot of those who are for more Heritage here are members who don't listen to very much extreme metal, just something I'd like to point out.  I feel like extreme metal fans on this forum are unforunately not that common  :sadpanda:
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 07:42:27 AM by Dark Castle »

Offline TioJorge

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #764 on: December 27, 2012, 09:00:14 AM »
DC: I listen to plenty of metal, for the record; many different kinds at that, and while recently it's mainly either straight death metal or a mixture of progressive death metal, my opinion stands that despite the fact that I adore Storm Corrosion and Heritage, I also consider Morningrise to be a supremely sexy album. In fact I've stated in the past that I'm itching for and would love another Opeth album that harkens back to their true roots and is completely off-the-walls insane with the absolute harshest of vocals and the heaviest of music. Which brings me to something I'd like to correct; I never said this at all:
Quote
While bands do change sounds over time, to completely throw out key elements to Opeth's sound was kind of disappointing, I don't get why Growls and some more heaviness would have made it a "stale metal album" if anything it would have added more flavor to an album that could have used it.  Some of it worked well, songs like The Devils Orchard, I Feel The Dark, Nepenthe, but the rest just didn't really gel.  The flute felt out of place and weird, and Slither is a very "meh" song, which I really really hope they don't take that direction with the next album. Anywho, I don't get what's so wrong with thinking it could have been heavier, there could have been growls, and there should have been both, because Heritage needs it.  The Devils orchard which I think is a 4/5 Opeth song would have been a 5/5 with some well placed growls, and that one part of I Feel The Dark would have been a 5/5 song as well if it'd just had Mikael howling.
But I guess it's opinions, so whatever.
You're taking it out of context. I said that were the band to continue down a path that catered to the fans specifically, meaning creating another heavy, usual Opeth album with all of the markings of a usual album, growls and all, we might get an album that feels stale because Mikael and co. clearly did not want to create a heavy, progressive-metal album with growls. Doing something one does not want to do, especially in a creative outlet such as music, could result in the music sounding, as I said, uninspired and stale. The fact that progressive-metal elements and growls would have been present doesn't even factor into the equation; it's the fact that Mikael and the band did not want to do that kind of record is what would make it stale. I hope that's clear because I do want, eventually, another Opeth record that makes my penis shrivel in fear and my bowels uncontrollably burst out my anus while I simultaneously reach orgasm that paints my walls a beautiful eggshell white. However, they can keep it if what we get is not something from the heart and is not something that the band cohesively reaches a decision to do because like it or not, the direction they went in is something they wanted to do and to my ears, it sounds very inspired and full of heart (granted, a cancerous, black-blood pulsing heart).

But yeah, fuckin' opinions 'n shit. Agree to disagree or something? *genital hug*

@TioJorge

I completely agree that a band should be able to change direction on record, without having to explain themselves to, or cater to, the fans. However, to completely omit heavy, harsh vocals (which, like it or not, are 'a part of what made Opeth the band they are') is somewhat disrespectful to the fans who have put Opeth where they are today. I understand they wanted the Heritage vibe on that tour, but all it needed was Deliverance, for example, in the setlist, just as a nod to their past.
The thing is, I don't think that Opeth at any moment in their career wrote songs with an intention to create a huge fanbase. They wrote Still life because that's the kind of music they wanted to write. They wrote Heritage because that's the kind of music they wanted to write.

It makes no sense to me that a band's creativity depends on the fans that wouldn't even be fans if the band didn't record and put out albums on their own terms.

Mikael put his heart and soul creating Heritage, yet some fans keep dissing it. Isn't that disrespectful and slap in the face to someone who made those exact fans happy for so long as well? But that brings me to another point, which is that, in my opinion, we should really pick words much more carefully when we're expressing our dissatisfaction with someone's music. I seriously can't remember the last time I called an album ''shit''. But that's a whole other story...

Cod almighty, thank you! Someone who gets it. So logical. So sexy. They never catered to the fans. They have and always should create music that makes them happy and that inspires them. If the fans lash out and call it 'disrespectful' (which I still do not fucking understand one bit and it still sounds completely ludicrous and incomprehensible) then they can cry themselves to sleep and move onto the next band who does nothing but create drivel under the guise of 'being all about the fans bro"! See, it doesn't matter if the fans catapulted Opeth into the stardom because I'm pretty damn sure that they would still be creating the music they wanted if they were playing in rotten shacks to a crowd of ten people. They should never cater to the fans specifically because of the immense bullshit that is the fans' mindset: You played this type of music for a really long time! Now you're not!? RESPECT ME! What the flying fuck? I will never understand. I don't think I want to.

Now that that's done with... I'm listening to My Arms, Your Hearse and I do indeed want another record like this. Let me clarify: Record like this = this type of inspiring, intense music; if that means harkening back to the old 'Dark Ages' brutality, fucking' awesome. If it means something completely different with that same feeling of commitment and intensity, even better.

Dark Castle, you did say one thing that I completely agree with: Slither is horribly boring. I really do not like it much at all and it is the only track that I don't completely adore for the absolute reasons I listed above: it sounds uninspired, stale and flat. Yet it has the markings (albeit a 'dumbed down' version) of their past catalog of metal, a galloping guitar rhythm and soaring vocals at times. When I found out it was a tribute to Dio, it made me dislike it even more. Not because I don't like Dio, and it's nice they made a tribute to him, but it's clearly the black sheep on the album because of that very reason. Tribute tracks almost always, in my experience, turn out this way because the person writing/playing it feels the need to force the type of music of the person that they're attributing to unto their own style. Which almost always comes out the way this did: Forced, out of place and ultimately boring.

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Offline cyberdrummer

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #765 on: December 27, 2012, 09:40:32 AM »
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See, it doesn't matter if the fans catapulted Opeth into the stardom because I'm pretty damn sure that they would still be creating the music they wanted if they were playing in rotten shacks to a crowd of ten people.

Really? Music is a business, and I highly doubt they'd still be playing gigs at this stage if they were making very little money from it.

And you ignored my point which distinguished between the music they write for records and what they play live. 

Offline TioJorge

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #766 on: December 27, 2012, 11:36:22 AM »
Ah, you're right; I do agree with you on that front...to an extent. Studio versus stage are two different beasts, and I agree that paying fans that take the time to come see a show deserve a few bones thrown their way; but even then, there is a point that it becomes ridiculous to expect a band to cater to the fans' wants when it's pretty clear that by this discussion alone that it's impossible to please every group, even in a setting where the show is specifically for the fans. The most that a band should cater to the fans is exactly what Opeth is doing now: A mixture of the music that the band is supporting, be it a specific album tour or a series of special shows in commemoration of a milestone for the band, along with a few fan-favorites that cater to the majority of the fans' wants. If they attempted to please even half of every fan's incessant wants they would be playing the same setlists constantly, their sound would never evolve, they would be running in circles and end up never making music for themselves and probably hate every minute, and the newest album would be Black Rose's Immortal WaterPark (Part XI).

Which brings us to the next topic: Music is not a business for the band (aside from a literal sense, but I'm speaking in regards to the band's personal intentions); do they make money from it? Yes, but that does not mean that it is a business in a personal sense to the band. I'm not blanketing the entire industry as, in the broad sense of the word, it is a business. But in regards to Opeth and specifically Mikael himself, and I'm not speaking matter-of-factly as neither of us know, but I'm confident that one of their goals when starting this band was not "Make a shitload of money and become famous". Many musicians do and they are much more wealthy than Opeth collectively and they cater to the masses, waiting on hand and foot to every swinging dick and Nancy; I'm also quite certain that those people are the people that are in the music business. I'm quite certain that Mikael does not see the writing, recording, and touring process as 'going to work'. The record labels see music as a business, certain fans see music as a business, music industry companies see music as a business and while I cannot speak for the band, I'd be willing to bet my left nut that Mikael and co. absolutely do not see their love for playing, writing and making music as a business in and of itself. Are they happy that their once-hobby has now turned into a lucrative outlet? Sure as shit, they do. I also think that, yes, even if they made little money playing music, they would (with careers in other areas) fund their own gigs, play small shows, and enjoy themselves all the same, playing the music they want to play.

When they began, that's exactly what they were doing and it's how most every band that has love for music begins (sans the 'performers'). The lucrative side of the industry does spur some bands into performing, writing, and playing specifically for the fans and will listen to every numbskull that worships the ground they walk (y'know, until the band creates a album that isn't designed for the fans or goes against the grain). But fans come and go, they change daily, and they are for the most part completely unreliable and utterly fickle. There are exceptions of course, and once again, Mikael has made it clear he loves every fan for allowing him to have a career in the music industry; but why does that mean that he must cater to our wants? Lest we forget that it is just as much our choice to support the band as it is his for making the music. There is no law on either side that says that one must cater to the other. Don't like the music? Don't support it; I'm sure Opeth will be just fine without it. People like Steven Wilson and Mikael Akerfeldt hardly portray a sense of business perspective in regards to the music industry. That's kind of the point to record labels, and it's also why bands and labels clash so constantly because the labels clearly see the band as a money-making entity; the band and people involved personally, creatively and intellectually do not see it as such. Cue Dream Theater discussions regarding Falling Into Infinity and the battle between producer and creator. Etc. etc.

Case in point: We fans are so ever-changing and so two-faced that if they were to cater to us, they'd end up going insane and still not making very much money from it because very few bands/artists are in the music industry with the explicit purpose of having a career. The career part comes from the fans willful support of the band; a choice that we make because, supposedly, we like the music that they make and want them to make more. When the 'more' part comes and you no longer like it, the answer is simple: Do not support it. Fans do not have the right to be 'disrespected' because a band made music that they didn't like; it is not an equal marriage, it's not even a relationship. It is a support system built around the band. No support does not equal no music; it merely means that the band will have to be self-sufficient. I suppose the true test would be for every fan to stop support and to see if the band continues to put out music on their own. But hopefully that won't happen. Either way...I'm kind of going every which way now and I'm so very tired.

If it's tl;dr, you can eat my magical asshole in an attempt to become literate and less lazy. :angel: 'You' being anyone who decides to respond and the collective forum. Good discussion, even if it will never go anywhere and we may never see eye to eye; it was stimulating.  :tup
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 11:51:20 AM by TioJorge »

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Offline cyberdrummer

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #767 on: December 27, 2012, 12:34:19 PM »
It is an interesting discussion, which I suppose is dictated mostly by what each of us deems to be the nature of the music industry in the current climate.

I certainly agree with a lot of what you say: bands should not be told what to do by anybody, be it fans or record companies. It would definitely make for a pretty boring musical landscape. I guess my main bugbear is that I think bands should do a little more to repay their fans' faith - without resorting to becoming a nostalgia act. A good (or bad, depending on how you look at it) example is Metallica. They've recognised that their pre-1992 material is much more loved by the fans and almost exclusively play material from those albums. Personally I think this is too much, but I certainly appreciated it when they played particular albums in full. That is a good idea and a nice compromise.

Offline Jaq

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #768 on: December 27, 2012, 12:50:43 PM »
Speaking as a very long term Opeth fan who has seen them four times and was disappointed in Heritage not because it abandoned the death metal trappings but because I simply, just plain, didn't like it; yes, the band has an obligation to make the music they want to make. They also have to realize that they run the risk, if they go too far afield, of alienating an audience that supports them, which they also require to continue. I expect Opeth to make music that interests me. Heritage didn't so they lost me there.

The Heritage tour, where they utterly abandoned being a metal band? I'm not going to call it a slap in the face, but it was ill advised. When a band does that sort of thing, they run the risk of appearing to say "oh, that music you liked from us before? It's utter crap, and you WILL like what we do now or else." The argument in support of Opeth largely seems to boil down to "they can do what they want, and they should." It ignores the fact that we also have the right to say "this album sucks, the set list is boring as fuck, and I'm out of here." Which is where Opeth is for me now. What made Opeth interesting to me was the blending of crushing heavy metal with more progressive influences; remove the crushing metal and they are, as I've said before, a particularly bland version of a prog rock band. The band doesn't have an obligation to keep making the same album over and over. But neither am I obligated to like what they do produce just because I'm an Opeth fan.
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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: The official Opeth thread v. Lost Control
« Reply #769 on: December 27, 2012, 01:10:35 PM »
I wouldn't say they utterly abandoned it.  Face of Melinda, Porcelain Heart, Hex Omega, and A Fair Judgment were all pretty metal.  There was nothing as crushing as something like Deliverance, but you can't say they totally abandoned metal.